open thread – February 25-26, 2022

by Alison Green on February 25, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

A new rule I’m trying out this week: Questions only this week (no posts just relaying work stories). I want to see if that makes these threads any easier to navigate, since they often get quite long.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    I posted this above but want to make sure people see the new request that I’m trying out this week: Please use this post to ask questions, start discussions, or seek advice, but not to just relay stories about your workplace. They get so crowded as it is that I’m hoping that might make them more useful and easier to navigate for people.

  2. Assorted Ability*

    Anyone have any experience with The Mom Project? Looking to hear the good, the bad and the ugly.

    1. ThatGirl*

      I’m not a mom but I signed up with them a few years ago when I was job searching. They seem to focus on remote, part time and contract jobs; I did get one interview that went well enough, it just wasn’t what I was looking for. Anyway they seem legit.

    2. Event Planner*

      I used them for some freelance projects when they were first starting out and had a good experience. The main project I did through them was covering a maternity leave at a company that treated me very well and from which I developed some good professional relationships. I also felt that I got a lot of hands on check ins from the Mom Project itself, though this was 5-6 years ago, so that may have changed.

      It did confuse people that I myself was not a mom, just a young woman using the platform to source freelance projects. No one seemed to have a problem with that though.

    3. Drowning in work*

      I am working on adding pregnancy loss language to our leave policies and I think the mom project has great resources to model from!

    4. Ingrid*

      I’ve used them. I’ve had very positive experiences: lots of check-ins from The Mom Project, no ghosting, lots of great flexible companies (many with really positive and inclusive company goals). It was nice to know I was interviewing with places that were actively seeking out parents. I ended up finding my job through another means, but would still recommend.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I looked there in my last round of job hunting, so 2018 or 19?. Didn’t find anything quite suited to my needs, but they seemed to have a lot of good solid steady stuff from known companies, not fly by night.

    7. M*

      I looked into them when I was returning to work. I think they’re great at advertising, bad at executing. I kept getting recommendations way outside my skillset/expertise/interest. I know some people have success but I was unimpressed.

      1. Squidlet*

        Perhaps they’re better with certain industries or types of roles? That could explain the disparate experiences.

    8. Camolita*

      I *just* got a job through them! Woot! After working a high stress corporate job for years and then owning a business for 5 years, I was looking for something fully remote and part time to balance family commitments. However, while they had plenty of part- time jobs, they also had a lot of full time options – at least in the field I transitioned to (accounting). They had jobs at all levels from an entry level bookkeeper to a high level corporate CFO. Many were remote or hybrid. Lots of interesting companies represented… and they ALL listed the salary! The company I’m working for now has made a number of hires through the mom project, so they are apparently pretty happy with the process as well. Best of luck on your job search!

  3. Millie Mayhem*

    I could really use some advice regarding a unique position I currently find myself in.

    My husband and I relocated to a new city a little over three years ago. I’ve been with the same boss almost the entire time, and even left our first organization to go with her to a new organization about a year and a half ago. Our working relationship isn’t perfect, but overall she’s a great boss and we work together extremely well. I feel like I have learned and grown a lot over the past few years, and I’m grateful to her for the opportunities she has given me.
    Last year was a particularly rough year for my husband and me. We had two back-to-back miscarriages, with the second one being particularly traumatic. Although we’ve healed and processed those experiences as well as we could, we’re now seeing my father-in-law exhibit some early stage dementia/alzheimer’s symptoms. My husband loves his father, and I love him too, so this is really hard to see. We want to be able to spend more time with him, which has been difficult since we live about four hours away.

    My husband and I have reached a point where we feel it’s time for us to move back to our hometown so we can be closer to my in laws and our good friends. My husband works remotely now so a move won’t be a problem for him. Unfortunately, my line of work won’t allow me to go fully remote, so I’ll need to find a new job. I’ve been looking in our hometown and have had a couple of promising interviews for a position I’m really interested in, but I still have another round of interviews to go before a decision is made.

    I’ve been thinking about telling my boss that we are planning to relocate soon, even before I get a job. I realize this is risky, but my boss and I really do have a good relationship, and she is aware of all the hardships my husband and I have gone through. I believe she would understand and be supportive. I also want to give her as much notice as possible so that I can hopefully help find and train my replacement. We are already short-staffed as it is and are currently working to fill a couple of positions, and I would hate to leave her in a bad place.

    To further complicate matters, I just heard from my boss this morning that she is thinking of hiring a former employee/friend of hers to fill one of our open positions. We both worked with this woman at our previous organization, and while I like her well enough as a person, I didn’t think she was a great employee. I felt like she slacked off and got away with a lot because she and my boss were such good friends. I also think this position she is considering is a terrible fit for her. It involves a lot of personality management, and this woman is very direct and does not have the greatest people skills.

    I guess I’m coming here today with the following questions:

    1) Should I tell my boss that I am planning to relocate before I have a firm offer in hand? I know this is often discouraged, but I know her and trust her and don’t think she would retaliate or “screw me over” in any way.

    2) Should I be candid with my boss about my concerns regarding hiring her friend? I know I was not the only one who felt this way, but I know this is a very tricky, somewhat personal situation. My boss has hired a GREAT team at my current workplace, and I honestly am worried this woman could come in and negatively affect that. But at the same time, if I’m planning on leaving, it’s not my problem – right? I just really struggle with adopting this mindset.

    Thanks in advance if you made it this far. I would really appreciate an outside perspective on how I should go about navigating both of these situations!

    1. Unfettered scientist*

      1) no, what purpose would that possibly serve? There’s no action spurred by that information that doesn’t also harm you.

      2) I wouldn’t unless you have specific consequences of the persons poor performance that you think your boss doesn’t know but should.

      1. RedinSC*

        Re: 1, I disagree with this. She’s got a good relationship, it would be nice for the boss to know. I’m a boss (ha!) and I really appreciated my employee telling me she was heading to graduate school in the late summer. So now part of the time she’s still with me we can work on the SOPs needed and then have time to hire someone in in order for her to help train the new person too.

        I guess the only caveat I have is if there is absolutely no end date in sight, then I would wait at least until there’s a firm-ish date to be leaving, but with a solid relationship like they have, a heads up isn’t a bad thing.

    2. ariel*

      If I were in your situation, I think I would mention to my boss that you and your husband were thinking about it, but make it sound super-vague and far off. I hate the idea of springing my leaving on my boss: like you, we have a good relationship and I want to give them time to build some workarounds if my place were vacant. But I also don’t want to talk about it a bunch, and who knows how long relocation may take.

      As for two: this is tough. If you think your boss would be receptive to the feedback and you could couch it gently, maybe? But I personally don’t think I would know how to say, “we both worked with this person before and I did not enjoy it, nor do I think your idea of them in this job is correct” without cracking some eggs.

    3. Lurkyloo*

      First: I’m so very sorry you’re going through all of those tough experiences. Virtual stranger hug if you want it.
      To answer your second question: I’d recommend feedback on the potential hire only if you’re asked. If you’re not asked, it becomes a ‘not my rodeo’ situation. It sucks because you see a great team that may end up being uprooted a bit, but if you’re already planning to move on it’s not up to you. And as well, it’s been a few years, the person may have changed and grown.
      First question: If you’re prepared to be pushed out early, tell your boss. That way you’re ready either way. You could use the terminology you shared, about helping to fill your position. Be aware that you might get a ‘thanks, I’ve got it, buh-bye!’ If you aren’t able to be financially/emotionally stable without the role, hold on until your two week notice.
      Best of luck and take care of yourself.

    4. Purt's Peas*

      1. No way. It’s not even about retaliation, necessarily–just about consequences. “Not sure about Millie Mayhem’s timeline, I should give X big project to someone else so there’s an easier handoff.” I also just left a job where I knew I was leaving my boss in the lurch a bit. But it’s not about them, and honestly, telling her early won’t actually help her that much.

      2. I might say, “I really love our team and the way you’ve built it. I wanted to mention while I personally like so-and-so, my perception of her as a peer was that she wasn’t quite at the standards we’ve set on our current team.”

    5. HA2HA2*

      2. Definitely tell your boss. This is the sort of thing she’d love to know before hiring someone. It might not be your problem AFTER you leave, but you’re still here, so for the time being you should continue working as normal (including giving valuable feedback on prospective candidates).

      1. eh… professionally, there is probably very little benefit to you from telling her. What would you want her to do with this information that would help you? I suppose you could, if you have a good relationship and trust her, but it’s certainly a risk, at least a small one. I supposed if you want to, just be clear with yourself about what you’re expecting out of that conversation – what would you ask her to do with that information, and is it worth that risk?

      1. Cj*

        I disagree on the OP second question. If only the OP had worked with the person in question, then I would say definitely tell the boss. But not only did the boss also work with her, they are friends. Stay out of it.

    6. Inigo Montoya.*

      For #1, it depends on the relationship you have with your boss. If it is a good one, go to her and say that due to family issues, you may need to move back to your home town to take care of a family member in the near/medium future and if there is any way you could be remote or partly remote (or if there is another opening at the organization that would allow this). This gives her the chance to try and keep you and if you later resign and move, it won’t be a shock.
      Again, this is dependant on your relationship.
      For #2, leave it alone unless your boss asks your opinion.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I actually did tell a boss that I trusted that I was going to be looking for work, let him know ahead of time. In that _one_ case, there were no bad repercussions. But I really like Inigo Montoya’s direction.

      2. Kathenus*

        You summed up my feelings as well – if you have a strong enough relationship/trust then yes on the heads up; no on the feedback unless specifically asked (and then I’d really think about how you think she’d take it and decide how honest to/not to be). Sorry for everything you’re enduring, best of luck.

      3. Storm in a teacup*

        I totally agree. Also would your boss have contacts / networks they can link you into in your home town? Sometimes it may seem far away but you’ll be surprised who knows who.

        To add, I had a report from a few years ago who was relocating to another country in Europe. He told us upfront and it meant we were able to plan for a big project timeline to be adjusted to enable him to complete it before his move (and therefore be an author on the ensuing publication).

    7. Artemesia*

      Don’t tell. There are only potential down sides for you — no upsides. If you can give a month’s notice, you might do that if you think she would be decent about it. But if not — if you need to start the new job in two weeks — just do that.

      Let her hire whomever she wants. She knows this person’s work; she worked with her — she should know her work ethic. If this was a former employee at a different place that only you had worked with, maybe share your concerns. But SHE worked with her. It is on her.

    8. Tricksie*

      I think you know your boss best, and you should trust your instincts. I’m personally rarely comfortable disclosing a job search until I actually know I’m going to leave, BUT that could be because I’m soured on my whole institution and I think it would change the way they work with me.

      And I think if you have concrete issues with past job performance with that person, you should share, but not if it’s an overall feeling.

    9. WellRed*

      I’d consider telling her once you have your timeline set (after all, I assume you’ll move regardless of lining up a new job). I mean, don’t tell her a year in advance, of course.
      Did she ask your opinion on the hiring? If no, leave it.

    10. Cold Fish*

      I think I’ll be in the minority but
      1) Why not? It is not uncommon for someone to move for a spouses job without another job lined up. To me this is a very similar situation. Very easy and understandable to explain a small time gap in your resume as “you relocated to help care for ailing in-laws”.
      2) If you can approach diplomatically, again I ask why not? Maybe be a little vague and indirect might work best here. “I like X a lot but she is very direct. Do you think she’ll do well with all the personality types she’ll have to deal with in that position?” (I tend to be pretty direct myself and don’t really relate to the “yes man” mind set so people tend to quickly learn not to ask me a question if they don’t want an honest answer.)

    11. Nope, not today*

      If you have a good relationship with your boss and know she isnt vindictive or likely to push you out quickly, I think telling her you are making plans to leave is fine – or just saying you are beginning to think about it, no decisions have been finalized yet, it might be awhile before you actually relocate. I did this with a job when I was pregnant and moving out of state (decided to move and then three days later I found out I was pregnant…. not the best timing!). My boss was great, they had time to recruit and interview and not be rushed, they hired someone and I trained her. They never asked me to leave, but it did get to a point where the new hire was doing all the work and I was feeling very redundant so I left of my own accord – but was seven months pregnant by that point and had to leave soon anyway (pregnancy complications meaning I didnt want to be traveling long distances closer to my due date). So I wasnt pushed out exactly, but they knew I was leaving for about five months before I left. With all that said – it depends on your timeline I think. If you feel like you will move regardless of a job offer, then consider the timing. Will you move within a month if you get the offer? Will you move within 6 months regardless of having a new job? If you get pushed out now and have no job for a few months will that be financially detrimental to you? Personally, I’d lean towards telling her if you know you’ll be leaving in a few months regardless – consider it a long notice without a firm end date. I.e., ‘we are moving sometime in the next six months, so my last day may be sooner but most likely by September’ type of thing.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Think very carefully here.

      “Boss I will probably be leaving in the near future. Oh, btw, your friend sucks as a cohort.”
      It is possible that you could suddenly be seen as difficult and contrary.
      I would pick one and let the other go.

      While I do understand that you will be much more diplomatic than what I have shown here, the messages could possibly boil down to “g’bye and ditch your friend, okay?” in her mind.

      Once you leave you have no horse in this race. It does not matter what the boss does or does not do. It’s too risky that the last two jobs could be ruined if this goes the wrong way. Keep everything pleasant and wrap it up.

      I understand you care for this boss/company/cohorts and what their future holds concerns you on some level. But I know first hand this type of thing can dilute our energy and focus on our own situation. If you are leaving the company the time to be concerned about who she hires is also over. This leaves you free to do what you need to do at your own pacing.

      1. KateM*

        I was thinking similarly, that these two things BOTH should not be told – at most one of them. Maybe that would help OP, if they tried to choose, which one they’d rather tell?

    13. HR in the City*

      In my personal opinion, I think that if you feel comfortable doing it than tell your boss about the plans to relocated. If its going to happen then why not give a heads up. In regards to the friend I think you just need to keep that to yourself. I am unfortunately in a situation where my boss hired her friend and it is really not great but the boss keeps defending and covering for her. No matter what I say it won’t be taken serious so I just keep my mouth shut. It is up to other employees to let your boss know if things aren’t going great with this employee. Now if you think it will make a difference to your boss than you could just lay it out as you have for us but in my experience I don’t think it will matter if they are friends.

    14. Bagpuss*

      1) – I think this is definitely a ‘know your boss’ but I would be inclined to raise it only as “My husband and I are looking into moving back to [hometown] for family reasons, would there be any opportunity to transition to a fully remote position if/when that happens?” – have that as an initial conversation saying that you are considering the move. That would let you get a feel for her reaction, and give her the chance to consider whether remote working would be a possibility (assuming that you would want to work remotely for her, rather than for someone local, if those turn out to be your options)

      2) I would be cautious – but you could raise it If you think you can do so without it causing any issues between you and the boss. – maybe saying something like “I really liked [name] as a person, but I’m not sure if she would be the best fit for the team, especially in a role that needs a lot of good communication and people skills.

      However, I think in both cases it depends on how confident you are that you can raise the issues without repercussions, and perhaps also on how firm your plans are and what your time line for the move is. If it is a short timeline, then mention both as the worst case scenario is that she is unhappy and you end up leaving more quickly than planned.

      If your timeline is longer, or not yet certain, then I wouldn’t mention 1 at all, but it would be more relevant to raise 2 as you are likely to have to work with this person yourself.

      has your boss asked for any input on 2?

      1. Squeakrad*

        I like this response – suss out with the possibilities are, make it seem like it’s an if and not definite, and you will get a much better feel of how your boss will respond when you actually need to move.
        Like many others I don’t see any positive store giving your boss and ask you a heads up. Even with a good relationship , you don’t know how they are likely to respond, if she shows the poor judgment of hiring a friend who is not on the caliber of the other employees I would be suspicious about her reaction.

    15. Anonymous Koala*

      I would only bring up relocation if you think there’s any chance your boss will let you go 100% remote when you move. With the market being what it is right now, you boss might prefer to keep you remote rather than loose you entirely.

      1. Cj*

        I took her statement about her line of work not allowing her to be fully remote to mean the job itself can’t be done entirely remotely, not that the company won’t let her.

    16. Insert Clever Name Here*

      It sounds like your move is definitely happening, so my advice is based on that assumption. They are also tied:
      1) Yes, tell her. You trust her, and since you are definitely leaving the “hmm, maybe won’t give this big project to Millie” concern is moot.

      2) Yes, bring it up. Cold Fish’s suggestion on how to bring this up is good — focus on the potential impacts to work, not the perception that Old Coworker can slack off because of her relationship with Boss. Give your boss the information and let her use it how she will.

      I know people are always like “you’re leaving, who cares who she hires?” in situations like this and I understand to a degree but that, especially when you’re talking about a boss and other coworkers you enjoy, feels a little bit to me like leaving my trash on the bench at the park — who cares, I’m leaving so the trash won’t bother me!

    17. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      While I get where you’re coming from, and how workplace relationships can develop into true friendships, I would wait on telling your boss until your have an offer in hand. Also, I would save any comments on the possible new hire unless you’re actually involved with the hiring or something like that. Again, I know where you’re coming from. But if you took a step back, this is a work relationship. And the best way to not risk burning bridges, and have a smooth notice period once you do leave for your move, is to keep things neutral. So sorry about the multiple losses. My miscarriages were YEARS ago and it still feels like yesterday sometime. Thinking about you, and wishing you good luck on your move!

    18. Lady Danbury*

      1. I wouldn’t say anything unless you’re 100% ok with losing your job early. Your stated purpose (planning for your replacement) requires your boss to share the news with her management. Even if you’re 100% confident that your boss won’t screw you over, can you say the same about her boss? Her boss’ boss? It doesn’t have to be about retaliation, any company is expected to do what’s best for them. If they can find a replacement quickly, they may feel that letting you go earlier than you intend to leave may be what’s best for them.

      2. Are you presenting new information that your boss either isn’t or couldn’t have been aware of? If your boss was willfully blind or allowing her friend to slack off, she probably knows what the friend is like on at least some level and is still considering hiring her. If she’s that biased towards her friend, it’s unlikely that anything you say would change her mind and is far more likely to have a negative impact on your relationship.

    19. Sherm*

      #1) I once told a boss I was looking before quitting, and it really sucked. It’s like telling your romantic partner “I’m going to break up with you, but not just yet.” Even if your romantic partner is the most understanding person in the world, it will change the plans you make, what you talk about. If you’re leaving soon regardless and can put up with, say, 3 months of suck, then maybe tell her. Otherwise, I’d just give the 2 weeks notice, which is widely considered courteous.

      #2) I would not say anything unless you know something that the boss doesn’t know, and it would make a big difference — for example, “Jane was known to put the TPS reports in the shredder rather than filing them away.”

    20. RagingADHD*

      Definitely yes to 2. Your candor will serve your whole team’s interests.

      In your position, with the relationship you describe and your husband’s job situation being stable, I would probably say yes, speak up early. Even if she jumps ugly unexpectedly, you have little to lose. If your situation were more precarious, probably not.

    21. Budgie Buddy*

      Rather than focusing on telling your boss, why not devote some time into creating detailed documentation you can hand off to a replacement and a comprehensive job description that can be used for hiring?

      That way when you do inform your boss of the move you can immediately present useful information that will help the handover go smoothly.

      I recently handed off some of my duties to a new hire and it was helpful to have a “For Dummies” document on how to do those tasks ready to go. Also when one of my coworkers left last year, I made sure to grab her and have her go over the job description I was posting because she knew best what skills to look for.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I agree. Do this, leave your side of the street clean, and give a standard amount of notice (2-3 weeks). Otherwise it will just interject a whole lot of weird before things are final and if anything changes in your plans in a month or so, you won’t be stuck with a deadline you now can’t meet.

    22. Zennish*

      I wouldn’t mention leaving until I had a firm quit date in mind, if it were me. Even if you have a good relationship with your boss, once you say something you give up the ability to manage your own exit timeline. What if the boss hires a replacement, and then can’t keep you both on the payroll as long as you’re banking on, etc.? Anything could go wrong if you say something, while there is very little benefit.

    23. Working Hypothesis*

      1. At most, perhaps tell her that you’re thinking about it but haven’t made any firm decisions yet. The fact is that if you do tell your boss this, the benefits will be 100% to your boss — even if she manages somehow to handle it so that it does no harm whatsoever to you, it won’t be actively *good* for you. At best, it won’t do you any damage. And it could do you a lot of damage, even if the boss isn’t angry or retaliatory… it might make the relationship weird or awkward; it might put her in a position where she has to protect the company by adapting your position in a way you didn’t enjoy; it might do all sorts of things. I’m reminded of the old football coach’s line about the forward pass (in an era when it wasn’t used often): “There are only three things that can happen when you pass, and two of them are bad.”

      2. First of all, I agree fully with everyone who says don’t tell your boss BOTH of these things. Not even vaguely. At most, pick one. You’re going to be using a LOT of political capital on either one of them, and frankly there’s virtually nobody who has enough to get away with both successfully. If you were one of those few, you would know it. So you need to save your capital for one or the other at most.

      Second of all, since this person is your boss’ good friend, I would stick to expressing concerns that don’t directly criticize the friend. Fortunately, you have some! You can stick heavily to “Not a good fit for this position,” and explain what concerns you about that lack of fit, without ever saying our even hinting that you don’t think highly of the friend in question. She’s just not right for this position, and here’s why.

      That still holds some risks, but if you’re willing to go out on a limb somewhat, that’s the way I would go about it. Try to stick as closely to hard fact as possible, rather than opinion or prediction (“Anya is an experienced llama handler, but she has never done tail-braiding, and tail-braiding is more than 30% of what we need from this position,” rather than “Anya is irritating and doesn’t work hard; the team will have to pick up the load for her,” for example.) But concentrate on the ways Anya doesn’t fit well with the specifics of the position, rather than on what’s wrong with her. You might get away with it. It does run the risk that your boss will find a different position for her friend later… but you’ll be moving; by then it won’t be your problem. (Yes, I know you care anyway, but there’s a point past which you’ll have to disengage from that, if your boss is determined enough to hire her friend no matter what. Count on being elsewhere to give you the detachment you will need.)

    24. Gordy*

      As a boss who was once told my employee was planning on leaving and was genuinely supportive, as he was well overqualified for his job, I would say don’t tell her. Merely on a cost/benefit basis, this has the potential to cost you a great deal, and the benefits of telling are probably minor. Even after I was told, the only things I really could do for him was offer to review his application materials and be a reference.

      Also, stay right out of the other thing unless asked specifically. That also has the potential to cost you a lot, and with you looking to leave soon anyway, the benefits will be minor.

    25. Kay*

      1: I agree with all the others saying tell your boss only if you can afford to be let go. If you want to prepare her for the news you might be able to make some small talk about how it would be nicer to be closer to Hometown so you can see FIL more often, FIL is getting worse, etc. Then when the offer comes you can say you were offered an opportunity that makes sense for you to take.

      2: Can you say something lighthearted like “Huh, I would never have imagined her in a role like that” and see how your boss responds? That plants the seed and if your boss wants legitimate feedback she can follow up and you can point out that the roles seems like it would require lots of accountability, a softer touch, etc., but if she gets defensive or huffy you can back out with something like “oh I just meant I had imagined a bubbly cheerleader for when thinking of (insert job title) thats all”.

    26. Jess*

      Ugh. I hate to be this person, but my boss (who I had worked with for years and with whom I had a great relationship) jettisoned me three days after I told her I MIGHT need more flexibility in scheduling a few months in the future. Don’t EVER show your plans at work. I learned that the hard way.

    27. Public Sector Manager*

      For #1, I wouldn’t say anything. While your boss may not do anything with the information and can start putting out feelers to replace you, unless your boss is the CEO, your company may use that information against you. Or your boss may be put under presser to trim costs, and your boss cuts your job because there is no other choice. Unless it benefits you, I wouldn’t say anything.

      As for #2, I agree with everyone above that you shouldn’t address the issue. If this future coworker is one of your boss’s buds, then either (1) the boss knows they stink as an employee and the boss doesn’t care or (2) the boss is blinded by their friendship.

      Best of luck on your job hunt!

    28. Squirrel Nutkin*

      From my experience, no. Even a boss who adores you may accidentally get in the way of your job search. I had one who ASSUMED that I was immediately following my partner to a new state when HE got a job there and scuttled a dream job opportunity for me in my then-state by telling that to the folks who called for a reference. I would absolutely have stayed in my then-state for a couple of years to try out dream job and just been long-distance with my partner, but she just blithely told them I’d be moving soon, so no dream job offer for me! I play my cards closer to the vest ever since.

    29. Manchmal*

      The answer is simply, no and no. This is a working relationship, not a friendship and not a family relationship. For you to tell your boss about your plans, or to criticize her very good friend–there is very little upside, and a whole lot of downside. Best case scenario, all the benefit accrues to not-you. Worst case, you get pushed out early, or you leave under a cloud, or you’ve made two enemies in boss and her friend. No one can fault you for giving the standard notice, and no one can fault you on not weighing in on a future employee that would start after you are gone.

  4. Miss. Bianca*

    I posted a few weeks ago how my manager gave me “exceeded expectations” across everything for my performance review, but seemed surprised when I asked about a promotion, gave vague non-answers about promotion criteria and didn’t say what I needed to do to move up. Well I have an update! Oh boy!

    After I posted in the open thread, I went back and asked for a clear promotion plan. Again he gave vague answers and his body language showed he was annoyed lol. But…he said he would talk to his boss about putting together plans and criteria on how to advance. The next week I asked him about it and he said they discussed putting something together…but again no clear specifics or feedback.

    Well…this past week during our 1:1, he told me how he actually did all of my team’s performance reviews wrong. He gave EVERYONE “exceeded expectations” across EVERYTHING, and HR kicked them back telling him he couldn’t do that; giving someone that rating would mean that person is ready to be promoted. Then he said when he got them back…he GAVE EVERYONE “MEETING EXPECTATIONS”. Essentially confirming my thoughts he is not taking this seriously and putting no thought into this.

    I was absolutely speechless, I just kind of smiled and nodded. I’m floored at the lack of critical thinking by him, he’s at the Senior Director level! 

    At the end of this month, I’m supposed to be getting another project that comes out to a little under $1 million/month in budget, on top of what I’m already doing. Next week when I meet with him, I’m going to ask him to provide me with reasons and examples for giving me a rating of “meeting expectations”, then going through all the extra tasks and responsibilities I’ve taken on over the past year. Honestly I’m expecting another bs answer from him, so I’m planning on telling him “frankly, if I’m meeting expectations, why should I take on this additional project of managing almost $1 million in extra budget a month? Clearly, if I’m only meeting expectations I’m technically not ready to handle this”. He’s going to try and pawn it off on me though. I’m going to put together some scripts and try to anticipate what he’s going to say. 

    Any advice on this?

    Original Post (Feb 4/5 OT):
    I’ve been at my current marketing job for two years, manage the largest portfolio of budget among my team and my boss has told me numerous times I’m “the best teapot product marketing manager” on the team. We just had our annual reviews where my boss was happy with my performance and gave me “exceeded expectations” across everything.
    I told him I want to move up to a “senior teapot product marketing manager” level and if that’s something he sees happening this review round. He paused and went “ummmmmmm…let’s see how you do against your SMART goals this year”.
    I’m infuriated that he gave such a lukewarm and flippant response after I’ve worked my butt off the past two years; he seemed almost surprised I even asked him this. I previously asked him what the difference was between a regular teapot product marketing manager vs. the senior level, and he told me it was a different pay bracket. There doesn’t seem to be a difference in more responsibility or strategy, I would pretty much be doing the same thing I am now. Even the SMART goals we talked about me achieving are basically continuing what I am doing.
    What’s more, there is an open rec for a senior level marketing manager for a different type of product. For that specific open position, even with the senior title, I would still be managing more budget and the higher priority products even with a lower title.
    It’s weird to me that I keep having to ask a ton of questions about this and he’s giving me vague answers and not elaborating on them. He’s the director of our department and I don’t understand why he doesn’t just say, “the difference between the regular manager vs. the senior level is X, Y, Z, in order to get there you need to work on A,B,C”. Maybe he just doesn’t know or fully understand it? But then why wouldn’t he try to find out? If you’re giving out “exceeds expectations” on reviews, you need to realize that people are going to want to be promoted.
    I wanted to get other takes on this. I think next week I’m going to ask him more why that other position gets the senior title when it’s less spend and less of a priority. Then in six months I’ll push for a promotion against my SMART goals, if that doesn’t work then push again in a year. The thing is, I really like my job and salary and would like to stay at the company for at least 5 or 6 years.

    1. MsM*

      I mean, you can try asking him to justify his feedback point by point, but I think it’s pretty clear how that’s going to work out: more vague non-answers followed by zero action. And I don’t think I’d approach the new project from a “well, why should I take this on if I’m not exceeding expectations?” perspective so much as “this strikes me as promotion-level work, and I’d like to revisit our conversation about the timeline/expectations there.” But ultimately, I think you’re either going to have to go to his boss and/or HR about your concerns with the evaluation process (preferably with some of your colleagues who are also getting screwed over by his approach), or start looking elsewhere. And ultimately, it’s probably going to have to be the latter, because it really sounds like no one here is invested in helping people succeed.

      1. Miss. Bianca*

        I’m still going to ask him for examples and reasoning, all other job’s I’ve had the manager goes through and explains why they gave a certain rating.

      2. Cold Fish*

        I agree coming at this from a “if I’m not exceeding expectations” stance is probably not the correct argument. I think the “this strikes me as promotion-level work” is a much stronger argument.

        2. Lady Danbury*

          Agree. If I were assigning a big project to an employee who truly just meets expectations, I might be giving them an opportunity to step up and take their performance to the next level. In that case, it wouldn’t reflect well on the employee if they pushed back because they’re not already exceeding expectations.

          1. Miss. Bianca*

            True, but in this case I think this is him being lazy (again) and giving me all the work (again). Otherwise, why wouldn’t he say this or give an actual answer for promotion criteria?

            1. KateM*

              It’s the difference between pouting “if you say I’m so bad why do you even want me” and agreeably smiling “hello, looks like you think I am promotion-worthy after all, don’t you”. The first probably will make your boss think you are the problem, the second may scare him out of lazyness at least a little bit.

              1. Miss. Bianca*

                Hmm, maybe something like “you want me to manage an extra $1 million in budget a month, that seems like that is promotion-level work. How am I being rewarded for this extra responsibility?”

            2. Lady Danbury*

              I’m not saying that the case in your situation. I’m just agreeing that “promotion level position” is much stronger positioning.

      3. NoviceManagerGuy*

        I agree, your grandboss needs to know this happened. If she doesn’t care, then you know the score. If she does, that will help you.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      Is self-rating not part of the process? If it’s not, could you present him with a self rating? I think that might help direct the conversation and force him to explain why either a) he doesn’t agree with your self assessment or b) explain why your self-rating is focusing on the wrong things.

    3. Artemesia*

      He has made it clear that you have no path upward and he is not going to value your work. You should be looking for a new job that will give you this stretch and not mentioning it until you are ready to move on. Keep your head down; do good work; eventually give two weeks notice. There is no point in hammering away at the reviews.

    4. Sunflower*

      In a lot of health workplaces, it’s normal for you to be given projects above your work level to ‘challenge’ you and see if you can do the job above before formally being promoted. Unfortunately, in a lot of unhealthy workplaces, that same excuse is used to give you more senior work and pay you less with no intention of using any of the success metrics to actually promote you. I had the same thing happen to me whereas I was told I wasn’t ready to be promoted yet was given the biggest project of anyone on our team. When I asked ‘are you telling me that someone at my (more junior) level should be doing a project like this?’ and my manager tried to turn it around asking if I felt I was unqualified or not able to do it (trying to make me doubt my abilities maybe?)

      So definitely expect that to be the given reason. I’d focus on trying to pushback due to work load- and hate to say it but giving yourself time to start looking for a new job. Your manager may be a nice guy but he’ s clueless how to do his job and he’s never going to fight for your team which is half the battle when working for a promotion.

        1. Purely Allegorical*

          Why 3 years? That seems like a fairly arbitrary time-mark, especially when you’re miserable. It also means you lose out on a year of a very worker-friendly job market, and a year of a better salary.

          1. Miss. Bianca*

            I’ve had 3 jobs where I’ve stayed at for 2 years, the rest under that. I look like a job hopper.

            1. MsM*

              Not necessarily. If you’ve gained skills and responsibility in all those roles before hitting a ceiling beyond which you couldn’t advance, then all you need to say if pressed on it is that you’re looking for a place that will nurture and support your growth as you build something lasting. And if there have been external factors, like moves you had to make for personal reasons, it’s even less of an issue.

            2. KSinHE*

              I don’t think 2 years make you look like a job hopper. When I am looking at resumes, only multiple positions under a year would raise red flags. There are often good reasons to go after 2 years, it’s not an insignificant amount of time.

            3. Zennish*

              FWIW, when I’m looking at resumes two years doesn’t look that odd to me, unless you’ve been like a senior manager at a bunch of different places for two years. (That sometimes means someone is consistently wreaking havoc, then leaving to avoid the consequences.) One three year stint wouldn’t jump out as significantly different, either.

            5. Kay*

              Have you been promoted at this new job at all? If I were hiring I wouldn’t see 2 years as an issue, at least start looking and if you find something better you can evaluate then if you want to take it. One job with 3 years over the rest with 2 is not going to make that much of a difference if I were reviewing a resume.

        2. Workerbee*

          Frankly, I’d start job searching and applying now, not after another year. Not only because it can take awhile anyway to find a good match, but because it might not! Your resume and cover letter will burst at the seams with all the examples you have of working above and beyond your level. Unless you’re looking at being vested, and even then…this guy and it sounds like the entire company has shown you they are not INvested in you. Treat yourself better than they are.

    5. Super Duper Anon*

      What all this is saying to me is that your manager is clearly terrible at managing people and helping them advance. Giving everyone exceeds expectations for the entire team for every metric is basically a shrugging of shoulders and a “well the work output is fine so everyone is doing well”. Being told that they can’t do that by HR and just bumping everyone down a level is just a s lazy. Giving non-answers on how to advance is also lazy. I would just assume that he will forever be terrible at this, his boss does not seem to care either, and go from there.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        . . . assuming he actually did that and didn’t just say he did that so he’d have a cover story for changing OP’s ratings. I could totally see him telling her he messed up so he’d have an excuse to downgrade her and undercut the promotion discussion.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      This guy is either putting no thought into managing or you really are doing well but he wants to keep getting exceeds-expectations work out of you without you expecting anything from the company in return. You don’t really have a way forward here unless you magically get a new and much better manager.

    7. gsa*

      Without all the information, the best I can to do is assume that you are currently working as a teapot maker level 2 think you should be promoted to a teapot maker level 3.

      With that, compare yourself to other people you do the same job as you and figure out if you are doing projects that are the most complicated with the highest budget. If there’s anybody above you, but is not doing as much work, volume and budget wise then there’s a case for your promotion.

      Alison,

      Good idea. I hope it takes.

    8. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I think it might be time to have a meeting with HR and/or your boss’s boss.

      From HR’s perspective, it may look like they flagged his error with the performance evaluations and he fixed it, done and done. But they may not be aware that his “fix” didn’t actually fix anything. The purpose of employee performance evaluations is for you to know where you stand with the organization, and for the organization to know when you’re ready to take on more responsibility and more complicated work. By refusing to properly assess your work performance, your boss is failing you, your coworkers who report to him and are receiving similar levels of disregard, and your company as a whole.

      So, go to HR or your grandboss. Let them know how long you’ve been doing this back and forth with your boss about a promotion and that he’s not giving you any actionable information about what you should be doing to earn it.

    9. anonymath*

      Rather than “leave your job” or “work with your senior director more”, I’ll ask — what other allies might you have in the company? Could you make a lateral move or jump within the company? Could you argue you need to move under another senior director? This dude is definitely a rock in your river, but there may be ways around him.

      Did you ever talk with folks around the open rec you mentioned in the first letter? Can you consider making the move and asking for more responsibility with it and more salary??!!

      1. Miss. Bianca*

        So there an actually another open rec for a position right under him, who I would be reporting to (director level). I can wait for that, I don’t know how long it would take though to fill it. But ideally that could help.

        With the open rec I mentioned in my first letter, I asked him about it, that role was (1) being a people manager and (2) building out that specific channel. But kind of bs honestly…

        1. Miss. Bianca*

          Whoops, posted too soon. He acknowledge that even building that channel, I would in my current position, still be managing more spend, thus his lazy bs

    10. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      It will not hurt to take a look around and see what else is out there, perhaps at one level up from where you are now.

    11. Aggretsuko*

      This sounds exactly like my job, where you either get “meets expectations” only, or you get “doesn’t meet expectations” for some answers and “exceeds expectations” for others…so that they all average out to “meets expectations,” so that nobody can ever get promoted.

    12. 15 Pieces of Flair*

      Show your manager the open req for the senior level role and ask him to help you understand why that role merits the higher level. Use that as the jumping off point to ask again what you would need to deliver to be promoted in the next cycle. Then ask what else beyond your control may impact your ability to move up.

      Organization level performance and priorities can create, change, or limit opportunities. I have a team member who was promoted at the beginning of the month and is hoping to be promoted again in 6 months. Her ability to be promoted will depend not only on her execution against the plan we developed but also on the company’s performance the next 2 quarters and how her case for a promotion compares against others in the department if opportunities are limited. A good manager (which you don’t seem to have) can articulate why they can’t guarantee a promotion while describing what you can do to maximize your chances.

      1. 15 Pieces of Flair*

        Disregard the point about the other position. I see you’ve already asked about it.

        Have the broader conversation about opportunities and what impacts them though. If you can get your manager talking, you might learn there are a lot of factors in play that have little to nothing to do with you personally.

  5. Parsley*

    My daughter is a high school sophomore strongly considering going into engineering. (She’s also a devoted reader of AAM!) As she looks at potential schools, I’m wondering if any engineers out there could help guide us in a few questions.

    First, how important is it to go to an engineering school for undergrad? She’s interested in smaller schools if possible, and I’m wondering if something like a Physics degree from a really good liberal arts college would work for getting into engineering Masters programs.

    Second, if she does go to an engineering school, how important is a big name? We’ve always talked about college in the context of being conscious of the price tag and not coming out with debt, which would mean a state school or a mid-tier school that would give academic scholarship help. If she got into a school like Carnegie Mellon or Cornell, would the increased prestige be likely to come with a commensurate salary increase to pay off student loans?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    1. OyHiOh*

      One of my siblings did their undergrade in engineering, at a small state school that is known for its engineering programs. As in, when I mentioned my sibling to a friend who works on the national organization that accredits engineering programs, she knew the school and its reputation immediately and favorably. My sibling went on to do Masters and Ph.D work at private institutions and worked at a sufficiently high level to pay off their student loans in under 10 years.

      Philosophically, I’m not a fan of specializing super early in one’s college. I don’t know what pluses or minuses there are to taking a strong physics major in college and then an engineering Masters, but there are state schools with really strong undergrad engineering programs, if she wants to go that route for her bachelor’s

    2. ThatGirl*

      I have a few vague ideas, my brother in law is an electrical engineer. So… what kind of engineer does she want to be? Because she may not need a masters degree. A lot of the answers depend on her end goal. Where she goes to school should probably correlate with the region she wants to live in, at least at first, and should be strong in the program she wants. That matters more than a name.

    3. alt ac*

      Hi! Non-engineer here, but I teach (not engineering) at a no-name public institution with an excellent, highly rated engineering program. We also have a grad engineering program that attracts students from across the globe – and in my position, I have worked closely with the college. All that to say, in engineering I think the program may be more important than the institution. Our students do some impressive undergrad research and go on to get incredibly lucrative positions, so I don’t necessarily think a $$$$/prestigious institution would be that much better unless she wants to explicitly focus on research (again, though, our program gets a lot of funding for research).

      Re: your other question, internships are a big deal for our engineering students and can help push them into great grad programs, so it’s at least something to consider and talk to schools about. And that leads me to my other point, visit schools! Talk to their faculty, and ask them these questions.

      1. alt ac*

        I would also see if her preferred schools have a student chapter of Society of Women Engineers. These programs can be isolating for young women, and having others who understand your position can help a lot.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          Seconding the advice to look for a school with a Society of Women Engineers (SWE) chapter! My school’s SWE chapter was very helpful to me during undergrad.

      2. Grits McGee*

        The point about internships is a really good one- are the schools your daughter are looking at in a location where there are opportunities to get experience outside of her school? I went to a liberal arts school in a rural area, and while the school itself was a great fit for me, I had to use my summers to travel to other states for internships and work experience in my field (unpaid, of course). I had the resources to make it work, and I’m sure that it’s different for engineering, but it’s definitely something to keep in mind.

        1. Clisby*

          An internship in engineering (or computer science, for that matter) should be paid. If it’s unpaid, I would immediately think that was suspect.

    4. Jim Bob*

      Mechanical engineer here.

      An engineering degree from an ABET-accredited program is an absolute requirement to be taken seriously in the field. That said, a big name is not a requirement; a good GPA at a state school or smaller school with a reasonably good reputation would be fine. There are plenty of accredited smaller programs.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          I have two degrees in environmental science (not engineering!) and I am an environmental engineer working in regulatory compliance. Hubs is a design/application engineer and has talked about engineering vs. engineering tech degrees and what those can lead you to.

          This really depends on what she wants to *do* with that engineering degree. Engineering is a very broad field.

        2. Rocket Surgeon*

          Jim Bob is correct. If OP’s daughter is going to earn an engineering degree, the program should be ABET-accredited. OP best of luck to her! Engineering is a great profession.

      2. Rocket Surgeon*

        Jim Bob is correct. If OP’s daughter is going to earn an engineering degree, the program should be ABET-accredited. OP best of luck to her! Engineering is a great profession.

    5. Kat*

      Hi Parsley. I work in a recruiting firm and one of our practices is Engineering. It hasn’t mattered very much to our clients where an engineer goes to college. An ABET-accredited engineering program is critical, for sure, but unless your daughter is admitted to an Ivy League/”New Ivy” program like MIT or RPI (with huge name recognition, in other words), she will probably do just really well at a state school or smaller private college.

      Of course, if she can get into MIT and you guys can swing it, financially, that’s going to be an outstanding mark on her resume.

      But more critically, after college most of our engineers focus on earning their professional engineer (PE) certification, which is a highly desired feature our clients look for. This takes four years of work experience and licensure examination to earn and will set her above her peers, even from big name schools, who do not go on to earn their PE.

      For an example, my firm is in New England, and several of our clients are in the region (though we have clients nationwide). Several state schools in the area including University of Maine at Orono and University of New Hampshire have excellent engineering programs with a much lower cost associated than programs like MIT. We recently placed a candidate who had graduated from UMaine Orono over someone who graduated from RPI, simply because the person from UMaine Orono had achieved their PE. Neither of these candidates had a Master’s or advanced degree. So, you can see, that’s something to consider.

      There’s also LOTS of different kinds of engineering out there – civil, mechanical, electrical, nuclear – and different programs will offer more or less of these options so your daughter should consider what kind of engineer she wants to be when she is done with school.

      I hope this helps a little!

      1. Kat*

        I should add to the “simply because” comment – obviously that candidate was a great fit for the job, but them having earned their PE over the other finalist from RPI is what sealed the deal for the hiring manager :)

      2. Jim Bob*

        Parsley,

        PE licensure is definitely something for your daughter to look into if she’s interested or n engineering, and is one of the reasons why the ABET accreditation is critical. The licensure process is much harder (or impossible, depending on the state) if you don’t have an accredited degree.

        1. Wildcat*

          It’s a really hard exam but it can open a lot of doors too.

          If I had to do it over I would have done Chem-E instead of Chem. I did not feel that degree was very practical at all. I ended up going to law school.

          1. Foolish Fox*

            I did Chem-E and ended up in law school. Because I discovered I hated being an engineer. Now I’m a patent attorney. Never know where life will take you. :)

        2. Imaginary Number*

          PE only matters for specific engineering fields. I’m a mechanical engineer and the only thing a PE is good for around here is forcing you to get a bunch of continuing education credits.

          1. Jim Bob*

            Depends specifically what you do, too. I’m also an ME, and I’ve worked in industries where it’s useless and industries where it’s basically required.

        3. The Engineer*

          A degree from an ABET accredited institution is absolutely a requirement for a PE license. Which you will need in fields where you market engineering services to the general public. Civil Engineering is one of those fields. Many (most perhaps) other engineering disciplines do not so it isn’t a big deal in those fields.

          Engineering is very much a ‘get it done’ field. Those who can, will do well even without all the educational bells and whistles.

          A Bachelors degree is all that is needed in Civil E. Only firms that are extremely specialized will seek a Masters or PHD degree.

          2. Rocket Surgeon*

            Grad engineering degrees are not required in many jobs. However my federal government employer paid for my elective master’s and doctorate.

    6. AnonEngineer*

      From my limited experience: the engineering undergrad degree is potentially important because a good program will expose her to industry-standard tools and practices that a pure science degree may not. A prestigious school is much, much less important. Many state universities have excellent engineering programs, and the single most marketable thing you can do as an early-career engineer is acquire experience in the form of projects and internships. That matters much more than school name.

      (Caveat – a lot of engineering advice will be affected by what kind of engineering she’s interested in. Mechanical engineering is a very different field from software engineering.)

    7. Darlingpants*

      My experience: Undergrad engineering major (from Cornell actually) with a PhD in an engineering field

      As long as she’s taken the necessary prereqs (which it helps to major in something STEM, but she could also double major or minor) she should be able to get into an engineering master’s program. But, BIG caveat: Master’s programs are not necessarily a good idea. They are hard to get funding for, so a lot of the time the students are paying another two years of tuition *without* any financial aid (and federal loans are smaller in amount and less generous in terms) and end up with pretty similar jobs as people who went into the workforce straight out of undergrad (basically they both have “two years of experience”).

      I would make sure that the schools she’s applying to have a good reputation for engineering, but a lot of state schools have excellent engineering programs (UMass Lowell has the best polymers program in the country). If she knows she wants to move away and work in a big tech center like SF or Austin then the name brand school might help, but if she wants to stay in state and your state universities have a good reputation then the people hiring nearby will know that and she should be fine.

      What I will say the name brand of Cornell helped with was getting access to research programs and internships during undergrad (and a little bit getting into grad school). I had a 3.4 and when I did summer programs and grad school with people from state schools they all had 4.0’s or similar.

      1. Darlingpants*

        Oh another point: Schools like Ivy’s/Stanford/MIT have big enough financial aid budgets that going there actually cost my family about the same as going to a state school would have.

        1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

          Came here to say this – and in my experience, this goes for smaller, less well known liberal arts colleges as well! When I was college searching, the state schools actually offered me the least amount of financial aid, whereas the private colleges had more to give students in terms of scholarships and grants. State schools do not always equal cheaper.

      2. Albeira Dawn*

        Oh, you reminded me — in Engineering, there are usually two types of master’s programs: a professional track, and an academic track.

        The professional track is usually part-time, in the evenings, for students who have full-time jobs in the industry. The classes are focused on applications of theory. These are the ones that have little funding available, if at all. It’s pretty common for a student’s employer to cover some of the tuition in exchange for an agreement to continue working at that company for a certain amount of time.

        The academic track is more research-focused, with classes on theory and usually a thesis. These are more likely to have funding, but still not a ton. And they’re less focused on improving your expertise in an industry and more on preparing you for academic research.

        Both types can be ABET-accredited and count towards licensure, but not all of them are. Another thing for your daughter to consider!

        1. AcademiaNut*

          In Engineering, going directly from a BEng to a Masters isn’t necessarily useful – you’re increasing your academic qualifications, but demonstrating your practical job skills, which are what matter the most for employment and career development.

          I’d advise your daughter doing some research into what *type* of engineering she is interested in – mechanical, computer, electrical, civil? Look at schools with good, solid decent sized programs and proper accreditation, but don’t limit yourself to engineer only schools (quite frankly, having some arts students around can make for a pleasanter and more balanced undergrad experience, particularly for women). Actively look for internships and summer positions, which, as someone said above, should be paid for engineering. After graduating, work, look for professional certification as appropriate, and build work experience. Think about grad programs as needed, not as a default.

      3. Artemesia*

        This. Masters degree programs are cash cows for universities and rarely is good financial aid provided. If she wants to be an engineer she should go to a good undergrad engineering program. She can get a masters once she is an engineer and working if she thinks it would be useful to her, but a good undergrad program is the entry to employment. Often employers view a masters degree by someone who has not yet worked in a field as just costly for them and useless to them. You may actually exclude yourself from entry level jobs with it. I have worked with capstone field based projects for an engineering school and a good engineering program will have significant field placements/internships to give students a leg up on employment.

        If she gets a ways into an engineering program and decides it isn’t for her, she can transfer into liberal arts and do a STEM degree.

      4. random fellow alum*

        Actually, as a non-engineering science major who also went to Cornell, I would recommend that her daughter major in engineering. My major had a lot of the same classes as the Chem-E’s, but they also took a lot of classes that we didn’t take, and had resources to help find engineering internships and co-op placements and stuff. I feel like she’d just be setting herself up for struggle, having to catch up on all the engineering specific stuff in grad school. Also, there were plenty of students who were able to get engineering jobs just with their undergrad degree.

        And finally and most importantly, if she turns out to not like engineering after all, I feel like it’s much better to find that out in undergrad than grad school.

        (Oh, and I agree that it’s not at all necessary to go to a “name-brand school.” Wherever has a decent reputation and a good financial aid package is fine. But on the other hand, Ivies can be pretty generous with need-based aid, so if that’s what she wants, don’t write it off without actually running the numbers.)

    8. Go Engineering*

      I am a Ph.D woman chemical engineer with 30 years working in R&D. I think a state school with a strong engineering program would be a good option. You do not need to go to MIT, Cornell, etc. She should try to get involved in undergraduate research opportunities if possible. Also if she is a strong student, there may be scholarship opportunities as a woman. I think it would be best to major in engineering undergrad not just get a Masters. Engineering is a different mindset then general hard sciences–much more geared toward problem solving.

    9. Albeira Dawn*

      Hi! Civil engineer here, formerly a college tour guide who talked to students like your daughter all the time.

      (1) It partially depends on which specific field she wants to go into. For fields like Civil, where probably 85% of jobs in the industry will want you to pursue professional licensure (as a Professional Engineer), your life will be so much easier if you get an engineering degree from an ABET-accredited program and can start that licensure path as soon as you graduate. I believe if you get something like a Physics undergrad degree, the easiest path to licensure is getting an ABET-accredited master’s. And many master’s programs are open to those without engineering undergrads. But then, of course, if she finds out she doesn’t want to go to grad school straight after undergrad, the path becomes thornier.
      I’d suggest finding a small school that offers both engineering and other programs — somewhere like Rose-Hulman, maybe. That way she can get the engineering degree, but the school is small and if it turns out she doesn’t like engineering, she’ll have other options at the same institution. Somewhere like Olin, where the curriculum is highly customizable, might also be a good option, but they’re focused solely on engineering.

      (2) Again, it depends! If she wants to pursue academic research or big, flashy projects, it might be easier to go to a name-brand school. If she’s more interested in bread-and-butter industry projects, pretty much any accredited school will do. I’m not sure about specific numbers, but personally, since they range so widely, I wouldn’t make a decision based on projected starting salaries. Instead, look at what kind of projects the students work on during their education and where they’re employed after. Can she see herself doing those things? Is she excited about those opportunities?

      *Disclaimer that this is my personal experience in civil engineering and is less applicable to, say, electrical engineering!

      1. As per Elaine*

        I will note that I know several people who went to Olin and loved it — I have the impression that it has a liberal arts feels with an engineering focus and a lot of hands-on opportunities. I’d say it’s probably at least worth looking at to see if it interests you.

    10. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Engineer here.

      Physics undergrad to Engineering masters is not really a valid path for most universities, unless the physics degree is specialized in something like electro-optics, and the engineering masters is specialized in the same thing. And it’s not likely that she knows enough at this point to be able to pick out a speciality like that. And I wouldn’t recommend planning on getting a masters to anyone who’s still in high school. I ended up staying at my undergrad institution for an extra year and a summer to get a masters, but I didn’t decide to do that until November of my senior year. A BS in engineering is all you need to start your career – and many employers who want MS engineers offer tuition reimbursement; better to get a job and then have your company pay for the masters with part-time grad school.

      As to big name schools. It’s possible to go to CMU, etc., get connected to a well-known professor, get snapped up by a hot startup, and make lots of money. But it’s not anywhere near guaranteed – and that’s more likely to happen in computer science or an engineering program that’s heavily connected to CS like advanced robotics, machine vision, etc. But it’s totally a crap-shoot.

      Most ordinary engineering schools do a fine job of graduating students who are able to land comfortable jobs. Have her look into co-op education; after your freshman year, you alternate one semester in school and one semester in private employment – these are employers who know they are getting apprentice engineers, and the work you do complements the course schedule. It ends up being a 5 year program, and co-op earnings pay for much of your costs. The University of Cincinnati pioneered this but it’s present in many engineering schools today.

      1. Rocket Surgeon*

        Agree that co-op program is an excellent way to get practical experience to complement the academic training! It may also be a foot in the door to a full time job. I’ve been with my co-op employer for over 35 years now.

    11. fueled by coffee*

      I’m not an engineer, so I can’t speak to name recognition of schools or physics degrees, but some liberal arts colleges have programs with nearby larger universities to allow students to get an engineering degree, which might be an option worth looking into. For example, Haverford has a 4+1 program with Penn and Wellesley has a dual-degree program with MIT (I know these are both very selective schools — I only know they exist because my college boyfriend’s sister was applying to them at the time).

      Re sticker price: with private universities like Carnegie Mellon and Cornell, it’s worth looking into what financial aid she would be eligible for, which will obviously depend on your family’s financial situation. While selective private universities are less likely to offer academic/merit scholarships, many offer more need-based aid than public universities or schools with smaller endowments. The private university I attended, for example, gave me a partial need-based scholarship that brought the cost down to be about the same as I would have paid for full tuition at my state flagship school. The cost of college in the US is bananas, but if your daughter’s grades are competitive for schools like Cornell, I’d look into what the actual cost would be before discounting it.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        Thinking about this a little more, it’s also worth noting that the dual programs I mentioned above do involve a separate application process, so if she’s 100% sure she wants to do engineering, she might want to apply directly to a school with an engineering program. But if she’s also set on liberal arts, it’s an option.

    12. Wildcat*

      I’m a lab science major married to an engineer with a PhD.

      If she wants to do engineering, she really needs to do engineering as an undergrad. I did chemistry as an undergrad and it did not translate well to Chem-E for jobs, even though I took some of the same classes. I ended up feeling a bit stuck and pivoted out of the field entirely.

      For engineering if you want to do a masters degree you can often get an employer to pay for the degree. My spouse also got his PhD paid for, though that’s a bit rarer.

      As for prestige and jobs, it really really depends. A lot has more to do with the prestige of the individual program and the professor you work with. For engineering you really also want to be getting actual experience as an undergrad to help you get a job. Schools with Co-op programs are good for this.

      However, I’d also caution to pick a school that’s well rounded. At my school tons of people quit engineering freshman year because the first year of brutal. So make sure the school also has what she might want outside of engineering.

    13. Generic Name*

      I’m a scientist, but I work at a company/industry with tons of engineers. Here are my thoughts: get her involved in “women/girls in STEM/engineering” organizations. They are great at mentoring, and there’s stuff aimed at high school girls considering engineering. Engineers are highly in demand, and while engineering-focused schools do have more prestige, state schools with solid engineering programs are highly-regarded as well. Of the two prestigious schools you’ve mentioned….they’re not really known for engineering, so unless there’s some compelling reason to attend like a huge scholarship or every member of your family has attended, I don’t know that those schools would be demonstrably more beneficial for her to attend than other schools. Here are the schools that have more “cachet” in terms of engineering that I regularly hear about: MIT, CO School of Mines, various State “Tech” or “A&M schools.

    14. irene adler*

      Might seek out professional organizations pertaining to the type of engineering your daughter is interested in (electrical, chemical, civil, biomedical, Quality, etc.). Hopefully there will be a local chapter you can contact. THEY will know the job market and what it takes to get the job. And, they will know what not to do as well.
      (some professional organizations offer mentoring and others even have student branches in many universities. Ask about these.)
      Ask THEM what is the best avenue to getting the job in the industry she wants to work in. Ask them how important the institution name is to the degree (and at each level: BS, MS, Ph.D.).

      My take: it is the skills that matter most. Not so much where the degree came from. Sure, it must be from an accredited institution. Some institutions do have highly reputable engineering programs. Might verify if that is for undergrad degrees or just for graduate degrees.
      Check into scholarships at the private institutions. You might be pleasantly surprised at what is available via that route.

      1. Albeira Dawn*

        Good point about the professional organizations. There are some focused on the engineering disciplines (American Society of Civil Engineers, American Society of Mechanical Engineers, Institute of Electrical Engineering, and American Institute of Chemical Engineering are the ones that spring to mind) and some focused on identities (National Society of Black Engineers, Society of Women Engineers, Society of Hispanic Engineering Professionals, Out in STEM). Both types are helpful in different ways and both offer outreach and mentoring programs.

        1. Beehoppy*

          The American Society of Civil Engineers provides a lot of resources and support for students. If she is interested in civil engineering I highly recommend joining her school’s ASCE student chapter.

      2. Person of Interest*

        I definitely encourage your daughter to seek out the professional orgs that are specifically for women in engineering – it’s tough out there and these can be enormously helpful in helping women navigate the field.

    15. Tricksie*

      I would focus on schools that are ABET accredited, regardless of if the school is known as a huge engineering place. Smaller places can be great, but that accreditation really matters.

    16. Ruby*

      To add to the others, if I were her I would not plan to go directly into a Master’s degree. She can get a great job with an engineering undergrad degree, and employers will likely pay for the Master’s if she wants to get one later.

      An undergrad degree with some internships will get her a job much easier than a Master’s.

      1. Gracely*

        This! I’m not an engineer, but nearly half of my college friends were (and their fields include nuclear, aerospace, wireless/software, and civil engineering), and that’s what they did. Co-ops and/or internships are the routes they took to get experience prior to graduating, and they all got jobs with companies that have been happy to pay for their master’s/additional education/etc.
        You *can* go into engineering with a non-engineering bachelor’s, but if she knows that’s what she wants, she will give herself a leg up by doing a bachelors in engineering at a school with a good program. And it’s much better to let your employer pay for your Master’s than fund it yourself.

    17. bee*

      Not an engineer but to your second question: I went to a Big Name and it was actually my cheapest option by far, including state schools. Most places have an estimated cost calculator on their website, and it might be worth doing a few— in my experience, mid-tier privates tended to be by far the most expensive, because they don’t have the kind of endowment that makes good financial aid a possibility.

    18. Hlao-roo*

      Hello from an engineer! These are great things to think about. I went to a state school with an engineering program with a good local reputation, but certainly not national name recognition. So my answers are based on that background.

      I can’t speak to a physics degree from a liberal arts school, but I know that the physics program (in the College of Sciences) at my state school was much more difficult than the engineering programs. I knew a few students who switched from physics to mechanical engineering and a few who switched from physics to a liberal arts major. I have also met a few engineers in the workforce who have physics undergrad degrees, so there definitely is a pathway from a physics major to an engineering job.

      My recommendation to anyone interested in/currently studying engineering is to get a job right after undergrad. Only go to grad school if/when she really wants to study a specific aspect of engineering further, or she needs a higher degree to advance in her chosen field. Also, most engineering companies pay for master’s degrees, so a good rule of thumb in engineering is “don’t go to grad school unless someone else is paying.”

      For your last question, as far as I know a big name can be a small boost in getting your first job out of school, just in terms of a hiring manager being slightly more likely to interview you. But I would not expect that to translate to a higher salary. Going to a state school and/or a school where she can get a good scholarship and graduate with little-to-no debt will set her up much better for the future than taking out loans to go to a “big name” school. (Again, this is my experience graduating with no debt from a state school.) I don’t know where any of my current coworkers went to school because once you’re in the workforce it’s generally not important.

      Good luck to your daughter!

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Oof, sorry for the italics fail. Copying and pasting most of my previous reply so it’s easier to read:

        I can’t speak to a physics degree from a liberal arts school, but I know that the physics program (in the College of Sciences) at my state school was much more difficult than the engineering programs. I knew a few students who switched from physics to mechanical engineering and a few who switched from physics to a liberal arts major. I have also met a few engineers in the workforce who have physics undergrad degrees, so there definitely is a pathway from a physics major to an engineering job.

        My recommendation to anyone interested in/currently studying engineering is to get a job right after undergrad. Only go to grad school if/when she really wants to study a specific aspect of engineering further, or she needs a higher degree to advance in her chosen field. Also, most engineering companies pay for master’s degrees, so a good rule of thumb in engineering is “don’t go to grad school unless someone else is paying.”

        For your last question, as far as I know a big name can be a small boost in getting your first job out of school, just in terms of a hiring manager being slightly more likely to interview you. But I would not expect that to translate to a higher salary. Going to a state school and/or a school where she can get a good scholarship and graduate with little-to-no debt will set her up much better for the future than taking out loans to go to a “big name” school. (Again, this is my experience graduating with no debt from a state school.) I don’t know where any of my current coworkers went to school because once you’re in the workforce it’s generally not important.

        Good luck to your daughter!

    19. Jortina*

      Do not worry about an engineering school, but do get a bachelors in engineering. You really don’t need a masters for many engineering jobs. MH with a bachelors in mechanical engineering from a state school made the exact same starting salary as someone from a private fancy engineering school and he got a fantastic education.

    20. MsM*

      Not an engineer, but related to/friends with several, so…

      – Your daughter doesn’t need to go to an “engineering school,” but she should be in an engineering program, or at least be taking plenty of engineering classes. Physics is theoretical; engineering is applied. You need the former principles for the latter, but it alone won’t give you the practical skills or training.

      – Yes, top schools are going to open certain doors and be able to facilitate connections a lot more easily than other places. But lots of state schools have excellent, well-respected engineering programs with strong alumni networks of their own, so the real concern there is finding one that can give her the small school experience she’s looking for. If she has a pretty good idea of what she wants to specialize in, she can also look and see if there are places that might not otherwise be on her radar that have managed to build a strong program in that one area. And if there’s a particular company or geographic region she’s targeting, she can see whether there are co-op programs or a strong internship pipeline between the nearby schools and local employers.

    21. Landscape Arch LS*

      Many liberal arts schools offer a 4+1 or 3+2 option, where they have a partnership with another institution. See Haverford/Bryn Mawr + UPenn, for example. Smith College, my alma mater, offers an engineering degree on campus. Disclosure…I am a landscape architect, not an engineer…

      1. No name yet*

        I was also going to mention Smith College, if she’s at all interested in an all-women’s college that has an engineering program. The college as a whole also recently changed their financial aid packages to not having any loans. (Not an engineer at all, so I don’t know how the program is considered)

        Good luck to her!

    22. Enough*

      No the prestige will not result in increased salary. At best it might get her into the door. Doing Physics first would work but she has to make sure that the courses she takes will give her the foundation for the masters. Also what branch of engineering does she want to go into? Physics may be part of a Civil Engineering curriculum but is not a critical part. But if money is a concern planning on 6 years of schooling instead of 4 seems counterproductive. Also if she really wants to be an engineer what would she do with a Physics degree if she doesn’t go to graduate school? There is nothing wrong with state schools. My husband, my son and I all have Civil Engineering degrees from Va Tech. It’s what you do with your education not where you got it from that makes the difference. Also there are private colleges with engineering programs that you could look into.

    23. The teapots are on fire*

      My fiancé actually did this. It was a handicap at the particular grad school he attended, (which was dysfunctional in a few ways), but he feels he is able to think more systemically as a result of his liberal arts degree, and I don’t think he regrets it. He was able to solve a few problems his engineering classmates couldn’t, but this was rare. The combination of physics and engineering seems to work well in aerospace. I think it would be wise to contact the particular grad schools she’s interested in and ask how physics undergrads do there and if they recommend additional prerequisites for physics majors.

      In Silicon Valley, big names seem to matter at the big-name companies.

    24. Ferret*

      Former Civil Engineer here…. I’m in a different country so I can’t answer your questions directly but I can say that my experience is that one of the most important things she should be looking for is links with industry. Is there an industry/internment part of the degree? Does the research involve working on real problems and collaborating with engineering companies that are actually using it?

      Having said that as much as I liked my degree I am no longer an Engineer and it seems like half my colleagues are frustrated former engineers and I know plenty of other people who have gone on to do all sorts of other careers so she will have a lot of opportunities. In the UK you can’t really transfer between physics and engineering in the way you are talking about (as far as I know) so it doesn’t sound like a great idea to me but the US is so different at university that may not be helpful

    25. Smaller potatoes*

      Mechanical engineer here. Would definitely recommend engineering undergrad. Most engineering jobs out there want an undergrad and don’t care much either way about graduate degrees. I did a Masters to help boost my credentials as an engineering consultant, but almost none of my colleagues have graduate degrees. (As a rare female in my field the I felt the extra credentials would help people hear me over the gender bias)
      In Canada (where I am) an engineering undergrad is essential to being able to even call yourself an engineer. Legally, a person needs a Professional Engineer designation (P.E. in the U.S.) to use the title engineer. In grad school the masters candidates without engineering undergrads received a different degree without engineering in the title even though we were literally were in the same program.

    26. Marie*

      Not an engineer, but married to one and lives in a city full of them. (Many different fields as well; software, computer, electrical, mechanical, etc.)

      Undergrad at a state college in engineering is absolutely feasible for a successful career. I have many friends that work for NASA, the FBI, and other big name government contractors. (DoD is big here.) Nearly all of them went to the same state university, and none of them have masters degrees yet.

      Please look at a state college that has a good undergrad program in the engineering field she wants to do, rather than looking for an unrelated degree from a big name college. It will save you both lots of headache and unnecessary work later.

    27. just a thought*

      I studied electrical engineering and now work in an engineering management field.

      My two cents.

      1. Get an actual engineering degree, preferably from an ABET accredited institution.
      You *might* be able to show the physics degree is similar but that varies based on how much the program/employer is willing to look into it. A lot of the government jobs I worked at early in my career and my grad school program had to show you took certain classes if you didn’t have an engineering degree, but most of the time the employers wouldn’t bother and just take someone with the ABET degree. Why risk it?
      My grad school program is less technical and more about engineering management, but it’s similar. You have to do a lot of work to prove your work and education is equivalent if you don’t have the ABET accredited degree.

      2. I would say a big name doesn’t matter. I went to a prestigious school and I don’t think it ever helped me.

      1. just a thought*

        Also, I would suggest if she wants a Masters instead of a PhD, to wait. Currently my job is paying for my Masters degree. I also did not stick to my original plan after I graduated, so I’m glad I waited.

    28. Falling Diphthong*

      The reputation of the specific program is more important than the reputation of the school at large–my youngest’s engineering program at a state school was listed in several top 10 lists for that field. The program’s reputation should also correlate to things like how good the department is at putting kids in the way of good internships and post-grad opportunities. He started planning on just a 4 year degree, and is considering a masters if he decides to go into one specific subfield where he’s learned that’s the norm.

      Physics from a small school: Oldest entered university not knowing what she wanted and chose someplace good across fields that interested her, landing in physics. The small school and department were great for her getting to do research even as a freshman. But that’s specific to her school, not generic to all small schools.

      For someone choosing a school, I’d be most concerned with options–she’s going to be learning both the engineering topics but also what things she does or doesn’t like about them. Considering different branching paths as she gains more information is good, and ideally she’s at a school with more than one path. I’d look for somewhere good in her specific engineering interest and a few other programs (other engineering, physics, math).

    29. Lora*

      There are non-expensive Big Names in engineering you may not think of as Big Names, but they are definitely a big deal to us: University of Delaware has a famously good chemical engineering school with many internships and collaborations with DuPont/Dow. Northeastern has an excellent co-op program that produces really amazing graduates who never have trouble getting a job, we love hiring Northeastern STEM grads. MIT and Caltech will of course open doors anywhere you go, but also for programming, coding and automation there’s Harvey Mudd which has an amazing program. UC Berkley, UIllinois Urbana-Champaign, Texas A&M all have excellent engineering programs in particular and aren’t “big name” (big price tag) schools but are routinely ranked above the Ivy League for engineering. And no, my MIT and CMU alumni colleagues don’t make any more than I do (small private school which had a lot of research / internship opportunities). The Ivy and near-Ivy thing really appeals to a specific subset of people: Startup executives looking to hire someone who will look impressive to investors and some very specific companies like Bose. Other people are far more interested in what you have done and what you’ve accomplished.

      Fair warning: you have to look REALLY closely at the program itself and what type of things are routinely part of the program. You don’t want a program where you’re expected to do internships or find co-op positions on the side in addition to regular coursework without much management from the university, you want a program where those things are normal, integrated parts of the curricula. When universities just have “here take these classes and oh by the way internships are really important too so you should try to get one or something” attitudes, that is not a good program. Even when students are able to get internships or research opportunities in programs like that, they tend to be extremely limited in scope and doing very low level work, and the bulk of the research work goes to the professor’s grad students and postdocs. A good co-op program treats students as real full time employees doing entry level work and has strong ties to industry, usually with a job posting type interface organized by the university.

      I would actually caution her against University of Pennsylvania, which while technically an Ivy tends to churn out graduates who are book-smart and look good on paper but without much practical experience, and it’s the co-ops, industry internships and practical experiences that really make or break the program quality.

      1. Delaware Anon*

        Go Blue Hens! Co-sign that the University of Delaware’s chemical engineering program is well established and should definitely be on the list of schools to consider.

        Re: University of Pennsylvania, I understand that’s it’s a good option for a small number of very specific areas of engineering. I want to say biological sciences and medicine? For broader employment opportunities, a person might better consider Penn’s red-headed stepchild across the street, Drexel University. They have a co-op program, and they offer some cross-disciplinary degrees with the business school. Check the costs, though; Drexel is a private school so I’d do the math on its tuition versus out-of-state tuition at a state school like Delaware.

    30. TotesMaGoats*

      Higher Ed Admin here.
      What kind of engineering does she want to do?
      What kind of undergrad experience would she do best in?
      That’s where you start. Ultimately, it doesn’t actually matter. My husband went to a small private school for his EE degree. Then did a double master’s from Hopkins. So…

      The key things I would look for would be the types/amounts of math in the undergrad program and asking where their alumni go to.

      This may sound like heresy but it doesn’t matter if you go to a big name/big price tag school hoping that will open doors if you don’t actually use the resources to open those doors. Go for the best program (outcomes data) for the lowest price. The kicker for her might be the type of engineering she wants to do. Mechanical. Civil. Electrical. Computer. There are a lot.

    31. bunniferous*

      It’s not a small school but check out NC State for engineering. I say that because it’s not only a great school for engineering but for STEM in general. And NC is a great place to be in general!

      They did (and I assume still do) have co-op programs with companies such as DuPont where a student can work for a semester, do class for a semester-it takes a little longer to graduate but you have experience in the field (a friend of mine who did this had a job waiting after graduation as well.

    32. Amy*

      My experience: BS in Electrical Engineering from a small state school (known for engineering, but not in any way one of the Big Ones), MS in Electrical Engineering from one of the Big Ones, Systems Engineering certificate from The Biggest One. I’ve worked in the field for almost 14 years and have been a hiring manager for 7 of those at a very large global company. (And I’m a woman.)

      – I’m immediately wary of the idea that she will go straight into an engineering masters program. While she might be able to gain admittance, a masters is certainly not required in many disciplines and can be seen as a drawback by some employers, especially for entry level positions. One of the bigger debates among undergraduate seniors who want to pursue a masters is whether to continue straight on into a MS program or to work in industry while getting it. There are benefits and drawbacks to both ways, but it’s a decision I’d try to put off, especially if you’re not yet in college.
      – If you don’t have an accredited engineering degree, it is a serious detriment to working as an engineer. I’ve been in situations where I’ve only been able to hire people with Physics degrees as contractors because they don’t have the word “engineering” in their degree. I’d strongly suggest going to a school with an engineering program. If she wants a liberal arts college, maybe something like Bradley would be a fit?
      – The name isn’t important. It needs to be accredited and you should look at opportunities for undergraduate research, design teams, and which companies recruit at their school (google “School name career fair” and look at the attendees). I strongly believe that she would be much better served getting out of school with a low amount of debt than with a prestigious degree.

      If there are additional questions, don’t hesitate to reach out! Engineering has been an amazing career for me and I love to help others get started on their path.

    33. River Otter*

      I am a real, live physics major who has been employed as an engineer for well over a decade.All this stuff about ABET accreditation is only half true. If she does go to an engineering program, it absolutely needs to be ABET accredited.
      However, since I work as an engineer, I can tell you that you don’t need to get an engineering degree to get hired at an engineering company. As I said, I was a physics major, and I have personally met math majors and astronomy majors employed at my companies. The thing that will be important for her is not just the major, but also the internship and co-op experiences that she can find.
      I really encourage you to look into private colleges even though they are expensive. Those private schools frequently offer really good aid packages, so they are worth a look. Don’t reject them out of hand based on cost.
      She should also not think about going directly from a bachelors degree to a masters degree if her goal is salary. Instead, she should think about going from a bachelors degree into a job that has educational benefits and getting a masters degree that way. The opportunity cost and the increased tuition costs of doing a masters degree really make it a losing proposition if salary is the only thing you’re considering. If she wants to keep on in graduate school after her BS because she loves it, that is a whole different value proposition. If that is the case, I encourage her to do a PhD not a masters. It is still a losing bet from a salary standpoint, but from a passion standpoint, a PhD cannot be beat.

      1. Rocket Surgeon*

        While you may be in an engineering role now, a physics BS is quite different from an engineering BS. Not to say your learning is better or worse, just different.

    34. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Not an engineer (although I did get about halfway through an ME degree before admitting I couldn’t hack fluids & thermo), but there are a lot of engineers in my family. I’m pretty sure every single one of them went to a state school for undergrad. Most of them just have their bachelor’s degree. For them, the biggest factor in getting their first post-college job was what kind of co-op experience they had. The ones who had co-op jobs had a much easier time of it than the ones who didn’t. (Also, in an engineering program, it’s almost always going to be a co-op, not an internship. It’s also going to be paid.)

      For grad school, one cousin did a combined BS/MS program, but I’m not sure he gained much over his sibling who did just the BS (same school, both in Electrical Engineering). There are a couple who have Ph.D’s, all of whom had very specific goals which required that degree. And my brother is still prouder of his PE than his Ph.D.

      One of my cousins did a double major in Physics and Electrical Engineering for her undergrad. I had a friend who was a double major in Theater and Comp.Sci. I’ve got another friend who did a dual degree and ended up with a BA from one university and a BS from the second (dual-degree meaning it was a combined program that would lead to a degree at each university). So getting an engineering degree doesn’t mean needing to avoid the liberal arts courses.

    35. Loulie*

      I have an MS in chemistry and my husband has a BS in a specialty engineering field. I also teach college level chemistry.
      Engineers who are not interested in academics don’t seem to benefit from a master’s or doctorate. My husband did go on to PE but it was not a requirement for his job, he just wanted the credential and could convince his employer to pay for it. You can work successfully as an engineer as long as you pass the EIT (engineer in training exam), and the PE is very discipline dependent. He could have had a great career without the PE, but it depends on the discipline.
      I needed the MS because it was a significant income bump over the BS, even in a STEM field. And even so, I still didn’t make as much as a BS chemE who had the exact same job title and responsibilities. (Then I went to academics and make essentially no money, but that’s a whole separate story.)
      As a STEM field instructor, I would say that first year is critical. Many students are in denial about what it will take to succeed in college and even more in denial about the requirements of a highly technical field like engineering. For years, I’ve been finding that most undergrad students have an extremely weak background in math, and unless they are willing to put in the effort to catch up, they also can’t succeed in a physical science or in engineering. Engineering is definitely not happening for most of the students who end up in our remedial math or even college algebra, they get too far behind those with a strong math background too fast.
      I attended a big state school that made it very difficult to transfer into the engineering program if you didn’t start off in it (why I didn’t switch to chemE); now I teach at a very small private school that has a program to minor in a science or math and transfer to a larger engineering school, so that is a good way to go if you aren’t certain what you want to do. And the type of engineering you want to do could end up mattering tremendously if women are under represented. You might face lots of competition for funding as a woman in civil engineering, but in fields like mining engineering women are so rare that in my day they would actually pay all your costs and give you a stipend to study it.

      1. Lora*

        ^What Loulie said about math^ This is so important. Math through calculus in high school is the bare minimum. And it’s very true that engineering programs require you to put your head down and work. Partying? You’re carrying 20+ credits of extremely tough classes and doing research projects and coding bootcamps on the side, when do you have time to party?

        The other thing is, STEM classes all tend to have some type of first or second year “washout” class where you either do well in it or don’t, and if you don’t, you have to figure out something else to do with your life. Organic chemistry, Thermo, and DiffEq tend to be the “look to your left, look to your right, one of you won’t be here next year” classes. These are not nurturing, challenging young minds type of classes; as a rule, they are very difficult for anyone who isn’t really strong in math and physics coming in.

        1. Rocket Surgeon*

          Really? I “only “ finished pre-calc in high school, and started with calc l as a freshman at university. This was their bog-standard maths track at a top-5 engineering university in the US.

      2. Sea Anemone*

        “Engineers who are not interested in academics don’t seem to benefit from a master’s or doctorate. ”

        I need to disagree with this. Every place I’ve worked has valued PhD holders. It’s not about what you got your PhD in, it’s about the critical reasoning and project execution skills that you gain during a PhD program. I can’t speak specifically to chemistry vs chem E (which are very different disciplines, despite the similarity in name. Chem E doesn’t actually use very much chemistry), but for EE, Physics, and ME degrees, there was always a higher job title than with a BS because the degree program counts as work experience. Now, pay bands for job titles tend to overlap, so an engineer II might be paid the same or less than an engineer I depending on the specifics of their experience, but if someone with a Master’s was hired at engineer I instead of engineer II, I would be asking very hard questions about how they count years of experience and I would recommend taking a different offer, if that’s an option.

      3. Wildcat*

        My spouse has a PhD and it did help with a promotion at hos job. Plus he can now judge at ISEF which he totally loves.

    36. Engineer with Breast Cancer*

      As you probably have realized from reading the thread, it really depends on what type of engineering she wants to go into. I’m a computer/electrical engineer in tech, so a physics degree can translate to an master program in my field, but that’s probably not true for every engineering field. My field doesn’t value the PE designation as much, but for power engineering it’s critical.
      If she does go into computer engineering as undergraduate, though, the schools in this list would be a high mark, although going to a small school isn’t exactly a limiter:
      https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate-computer

    37. Two Dog Night*

      I don’t know how common this is, but my husband spent three years at a small liberal arts college majoring in physics, then transferred to a large state school for two years. He ended up with a BA in physics from school 1 and a BS in engineering from school 2… and this seems to have worked out quite well. He’s never felt the need for a master’s degree, but he’s also well into his career, so things may be different now.

      Not sure where you live, but there are a lot of state schools with excellent engineering programs–I don’t think a private school would be that much of an advantage. In the midwest, for example, an engineering degree from Purdue opens a whole lot of doors. My husband works with engineers from several Big Ten schools, which makes football season interesting. :-)

    38. Anonymous Koala*

      I graduated almost 10 years ago from one of those big name engineering schools, and mentor a lot of students thinking about engineering. Before applying to schools, I suggest your daughter think about:

      1) the kind of engineering she wants to do, and what she wants to do with that degree. Both should partially determine the school she goes to, as not all engineering schools offer the same opportunities in all sub-specialities. Biomedical engineering is completely different from civil engineering, which is completely different from software engineering, etc. A physics degree is also an entirely different animal from engineering.
      2) think about after-graduation plans now. Does she want to work as an engineer, do research as an engineer, or do something else entirely? For students who want to join the engineering work force right away, joining an undergraduate ABET accredited program in engineering is a must. Those students should also consider schools with strong co-op programs so they can get some work experience right away. For students who want to go into R&D or academia, a strong research program and undergraduate research culture are really important.

      In general, I don’t think top schools = top salaries. Work experience while in school is a better determinative of high salaries after school. The best way to determine earning potentials after a certain degree is to call the alumni office or career center and ask for placement statistics. Those offices should be able to tell you which companies hire their grads, what they do to help placement, and (sometimes) what salaries those grads were offered.

    39. I exist*

      not much help as a non-engineer in a family with several engineers… one (electrical) engineer got a (mostly) unrelated associates degree at a community college out of HS and a few years later transferred some credits and got a BS from a private non-Ivy university- possible because spouse worked there and got free tuition and been working successfully in engineering for the 25+ years since. Things may have changed, but cost wise there is always the option of getting at least some classes at a community college and transferring. I believe there are also respected state engineering programs, at least in this state.
      I believe this engineer has masters+ level knowledge (based on comparison to older PhD engineer in same specialty) but has not pursued a degree for various reasons. I don’t think it has caused many barriers in career, but was not considered qualified to teach at a local community college. My point is the same as others- an advanced degree is likely not needed immediately and could be started later, potentially with extra funding.

    40. I am way too young for this*

      I’m a mechanical engineering professor at a small private liberal arts college and all of my graduated students have gotten decent jobs before they finish school. To quote the president of the university at which I got my Ph.D., “it’s not where you go to school, but how you go to school that matters.” I got my undergrad at an institution that wasn’t even ABET accredited (do not recommend this), and still have a masters and a Ph.D. from two different well-known state schools, and have done research with national labs, etc. If she works hard, the where will not matter nearly as much as *what* she does while she’s there.

    41. No Tribble At All*

      Absolutely engineering in undergrad as opposed to physics. While the fundamentals may be the same, a good engineering program will have more internship opportunities, career advice, tie-in with industries, labs, research teams, and hands-on experience. Physics is more theoretical and abstract, and despite how unlikely it is, physics resources will encourage you to become an academic researcher.

    42. JustaTech*

      If your daughter wants engineering, liberal arts and a small school can I recommend my undergrad, Harvey Mudd College?
      Fantastic engineering program (I was a biology major), very small, very strong liberal arts requirement, and while the tuition looks mind-boggling there is a lot of financial aid.

      And a lot of the engineering professors are women.
      (Based on the experience of my friends in engineering you don’t need a Masters or PhD to get a good job and do cool work that pays really well.)

    43. JimmyJab*

      I went to a medium undergrad with an engineering school. I wound up a lawyer, but my peers mostly all went straight to work from undergrad and many have amazing careers. If she wants to do engineering I suggest an engineering undergrad program, not just physics or similar. Not saying physics undergrad degrees can’t land you an engineering job, but an engineering degree will be more accepted at the start of her career.

    44. tea time*

      Physicist, working at an engineering company. I’d strongly suggest engineering as an undergraduate – there’s a legal, licensing component to being an engineer that you must have an undergraduate for. You can do a master’s afterwards, or not. If taking on big loans is a problem, is there some sort of co-op program she can do: it’s work placement for a year, or every other term.

      1. River Otter*

        “there’s a legal, licensing component to being an engineer that you must have an undergraduate for.”

        Not universally true in the US! This would be the professional engineer (PE) in the US. For Job related roles, a PE is necessary. But there are way more job related roles for which a PE is not necessary! For example, literally none of my jobs have required me to be a PE which is good because I am not. And while I certainly have not done a comprehensive study of the subject, I can say from experience that PEs have been rare at all of my jobs. In the US, absolutely do not let the need for licensure being a thing that drives you into an engineering degree rather than a physics degree.

    45. Trout 'Waver*

      As someone who hires engineers, the name on the degree matters a lot. A recognizable name is very important, but the truly big name ones don’t matter as much. A solid name means direct hire. A less desirable name means temp-to-hire starting through contract organizations. Entry level engineers need a lot of training, so big salaries are a couple years down the road from graduating and not right around the corner. Unless you land a really prestigious internship.

      Carnegie Mellon, CalTech, and MIT are great schools, but there aren’t too many students that come out of their programs. And many who do go on to higher education. VaTech, Purdue, GaTech, Texas A&M, etc all graduate lots of engineers, and those students have excellent job prospects, especially regionally.

      Also, masters programs are pretty worthless. Either BS or PhD. She should be picking schools where she has opportunities to do internships, work in research labs, and do senior design projects. These opportunities are scarce at small liberal arts colleges. A 3.0 GPA BS engineer from Georgia Tech with 2 years of interning at a local factory is always going to get hired before a 4.0 GPA BA physics major with only a senior design project.

    46. CheeryO*

      Replying as an environmental engineer in case that’s a potential interest since I haven’t seen that discipline explicitly mentioned:
      – She would absolutely want to get a B.S. in engineering from an ABET-accredited school. She’d be eligible for the P.E. much earlier, which is critical to earning potential. Even if that’s not a concern, I know one person who pivoted from physics into an engineering M.S. program, and she really struggled with the coursework. It’s not really akin to something like pre-med or pre-law, IMO. The foundational courses are crucial, and the curriculum builds on itself in a pretty rigid way, so the earlier she decides on a specific field, the better off she’ll be.
      – I went to a state school with good engineering programs and have never felt held back by it. I work in the public sector, and we hire tons of state school grads. Anecdotally, I’ve been promoted over a coworker who went to Cornell but isn’t a great communicator and doesn’t do great with some of the day-to-day technical stuff.
      – I stayed for my Master’s and am still paying the opportunity cost. I would strongly recommend against it unless it’s a major personal goal or she’s considering staying in academia. My M.S. was paid for (no one should pay for an advanced degree in engineering), but delaying my career by two years only cost me valuable real-world experience. I didn’t get higher-paying offers because of the Master’s, and I didn’t learn anything that has helped me in my career. I did get one year toward my P.E. with the Master’s, but that’s likely state-dependent.

    47. MaureenSmith*

      Canadian here with a Bachelor of Mechanical Engineering. No, I never pursued my Professional Engineering license.

      The university / marks only matter to get a co-op or internship and maybe the first job. After that, it’s irrelevant. One caveat, make sure the Engineering program is accredited so that your daughter has the option to get her license in the future.

      Short list the schools that have the general type of engineering she’s interested in. Then look at the campus and city vs expenses. Doesn’t matter how ‘good’ the program is if you hate living there. I ended up going to my second choice of university, best decision ever as the campus/city were more enjoyable than my first choice.

      Be prepared to change focus. More than half my incoming Engineering cohort left Engineering. Plus some changed streams (easy to do, the first year curriculum is the same across most disciplines for a reason) Some to other degrees, some to trade schools, some dropped out. Engineering may or may not be what you think it is. After the first semester, encourage your daughter to have a long talk with someone. What is does she like? Are there any struggles? This could be someone in her program, in the family, campus counselling, etc.

      Good luck to her! Engineering is an awesome program where you learn valuable problem solving skills that can be applied to almost any job or life experience later.

    48. Haha Lala*

      Another female (structural) engineer chiming in here.

      Since she’s only sophomore now, the best thing she can do now is take the most math & physics classes she can in high school, or even start getting college credit through AP classes or community college classes. That will put her in the best footing for any engineering discipline.
      She can also start narrowing down the type of engineering she likes. Maybe looks for STEM camps/weekends to get a feel for what’s involved in the different disciplines?

      ‘Name brand’ doesn’t matter, it’s more important to find a school she likes and feels comfortable at. Certain schools specialize in certain types of engineering, so she’d need to keep that in mind. I went to a “midwest Ivy”, and I work with other engineers with degrees from the same school, other comparable school, bigger state schools, state tech schools, etc. The more prestigious schools don’t come with a salary bump, but a masters degree would get a salary bump.
      Most of the engineers I work with had little loan debt, and were able to pay them off fairly quickly.
      I had a generous financial aid package from a ‘prestigious’ school, so I was able to graduate with the equivalent of one years tuition in loads, and I was able to pay them off within 5 years of graduation.
      (I also have a fiend, with the same degree, who took out more in loans, but then sold his soul and worked in oil fields for a year and paid off all his debt!)

      I’d also recommend that she keeps her options open when she starts college. A lot of engineering paths (civil, mechanical, bio mechanical, etc) all have similar core requirements for math and sciences. It’d be easy enough to switch between those in the first few years, as she learns more about each discipline and the classes she likes.
      I started college undecided, but STEM leaning. I took an intro to engineering course my first year and officially declared my major partway through my second year, and I was right on track with the rest of my peers.

      I now work with several engineers that did a dual degree program — where they got an undergrad degree in physics/math/similar from a smaller (cheaper) college in 3 years, then transferred and got an engineering degree in 2 years from the more prestigious (expensive) school.

      For my field (structural) all of the engineers have BS in civil engineer, and the majority of us have MS in civil/structural. We wouldn’t hire anyone as an engineer without an engineering degree, and you need that degree in order to test for a PE/SE license, which is also expected in our field. Not all engineering disciplines are the same, so it really depends on the type of engineering she likes.

    49. Kesnit*

      I got a BS in ChemE over 20 years ago, but ended up going into the service and never used my engineering degree. So I cannot speak to what job hunting is like for engineering majors today. I can, however, give thoughts on “college as an engineer.”

      In the end of the day, the school that is best for your daughter is the one where she is happiest. It doesn’t do her any good to start at MIT if she hates every minute of it and hates the weather in Cambridge. I went to a medium-sized state school that is located in a very rural part of the state. I was accepted to schools in or near large cities, but decided that that environment wasn’t for me. It had a strong co-op program (very important, because I didn’t decide to go into the military until I was half-way through), and my friends all had good jobs when we graduated – because all of us had co-op-ed.

      Personally, I would recommend a medium-sized school over a small liberal arts, simply because the larger school is more likely to have a wide range of opportunities for activities and groups outside the purely academic. Because yes, students are in college to get an education. But there is no way to focus on academics 24/7/365. Finding groups that she enjoys being with that do not take away from academics are a good way to de-stress.

    50. CatLady*

      Hey – (former) Software Engineer who graduated with a BS in Electrical Engineering here (and now have an MBA). I would argue that it is very important if she’s interesting in engineering she go to engineering school. Why?:
      * She will learn the specialized critical, practical thinking needed as an engineer
      * She will be able to explore what types of engineering she might want to do
      * Being a Physicist (or other straight scientist) is very different from being an Engineer. In Engineering school she’ll get a ton of Physics, and Chemistry, and other sciences basics before starting to specialize.

      I went to a top level, non-IVY league University with a very good engineering program. The University name was of minimal use but the experience I gained through its CO-OP program (a paid internship that is woven into the overall curriculum) was invaluable. I graduated understanding what it takes to work in the real world and because it was a fundamental part of the University’s curriculum I got the opportunities to try different companies (and gain experience with interviewing) and engineering types.

      Good luck to your daughter and I welcome her to STEM.

    51. PizzaCat*

      I haven’t yet seen anyone yet say this, but if you decide to go the physics route, make sure you do your research! As you look at Physics programs, make sure you understand what the professors’ areas of interest are and what upper level classes look like. I started my undergrad studying Physics, but almost all of my professors were researching either in the areas of astronomy or particle physics, neither of which I had any interest in. Your daughter will likely want to do some research or have some sort of internship during her time in undergrad, and what her professors are interested in will partially determine what opportunities are presented to her.
      I also second people saying to ask about SWE chapters, or even ask point blank how many women are involved in the program. I had so many bad experiences in the Physics department at my school with sexism, misogyny, or just general exclusion based on my gender both with professors and peers.
      All that being said, I started out as a Physics major but ended up a math teacher, so a liberal arts college is a good choice in terms of having the safety net of being able to change majors without needing to transfer schools.

    52. Nesprin*

      My BS/MS/PhD are all in engineering, all from huge state schools (UC’s). I’ve done some of the work towards a PE (the standard certificate that allows you to sign documents), but not all, because I ended up in research.

      Why is she thinking to get an Engineering MS instead of a BS? The beauty of engineering is it’s one of the few professional disciplines that only requires a BS. That said, most colleges have some sort of engineering programs unless she’s at a tiny-tiny school. Worth asking what the EIT (PE prelim) pass rate is, what the accreditations are etc.

      Almost always not going into debt >> going into debt. I might expect a small salary bump from a bigger school but I doubt the prestige would be worth the cash unless it’s Harvard vs. .

    53. Academic Anon*

      One thing to look for is what support the university offers incoming students. The transition from high school to college can be rough for some students, so having a group of people taking the same classes who are focused on studying can help. My large state school has a learning living community for women engineers, so they have people studying around them and there are activities associated with the community that can help them both academically and professionally.

      For funding, you have to look at the whole budget. Many private schools will offer you scholarships and financial support, some even getting you close to the costs for public schools. In-state is normally a better package, despite the cratering of state support for universities (*Moi? bitter?*). Also, take into account room and board, especially if your student will be living off-campus for part of the time. The housing crunch is also squeezing college towns and it especially bad surrounding universities in large cities such as Boston.

      Other things to ask about are: internship opportunities, co-op opportunities, undergraduate research opportunities, career fairs and job placement rates. And it might be tougher to hear, but ask about drop-out rates. Liking engineering in high school is different from taking differential equations. *shudder*

    54. calacademic*

      Hi! I was a physics major at a small liberal-arts school, went to graduate school in physics at a university that has been name-dropped in the comments already, and now work as a engineer at a different famous university that has also been name-dropped in the comments. There are MANY MANY MANY paths to get from A to B. There are upsides to being at a small liberal-arts school. There are downsides. Same with big schools. What is her current (high) school like? What does she think about the overall culture of her choices? What, if any, other interests does she have? (I got to do a lot more music and travel as an undergrad at my school than I would have done at a massive school, for instance.) Good luck! It will all work out in the end! :)

    55. Mudder*

      Just a plug for my Alma Mater, Harvey Mudd College which is a small, stem-focused school. It’s not well known, but generally is highly rated. (I personally did computer science, and I got a great education there.)

      1. CheerfulGinger*

        But so expensive! Not worth the debt compared to a state school with a solid, ABET accredited program

      2. JustaTech*

        Hey there fellow Mudder!

        Yes, all private schools are going to be expensive, but private schools also offer more financial aid than a lot of state schools. And not just loans, there are grants, scholarships and work-study jobs.

    56. Parsley*

      Oh my goodness! Thank you so much to all who are weighing in here! My daughter and I are taking many, many notes. Since some people have been talking about localities and specific schools, I thought I’d mention that we’re in the DC area, in Virginia. This means that Virginia Tech is an option for in state tuition. If anyone specifically knows that program and has thoughts there, we’d love to hear them. It’s a larger school than she’s been hoping for, but it definitely seems to have great resources.

      1. Beehoppy*

        If your daughter is interested in Civil Engineering – have her e-mail student @ asce.org and I may be able to put her directly in touch with some students or grads.

    57. Morag*

      Female physics PhD with undergrad degrees in physics and mechanical engineering. I’m also currently a manager who hires a wide range of technical staff. Echoing a lot of what’s already been said, if she wants to be an engineer, go to a school that has a good, ABET-accredited program in the kind of engineering she’s interested in. A good state school can provide a solid credential. The big-name schools can be great, but can also be real pressure cookers. Physics is a good liberal arts degree, but doesn’t teach you how to be an engineer. There would be a lot of coursework to make up before starting an engineering graduate program.

      More important than where she gets her degree is getting some real world experience while in school. Co-op programs or summer internships or working in a professor’s lab during the school year can all help. When I’m looking a resume, even if it is entry-level, I want to see something that says you’ve had to translate what you’ve learned into the real world. Engineering and other technical fields are good in that there are opportunities for reasonably well-paid summer jobs for students.

    58. Qwerty*

      My advice I always give is to weigh (1) how good is a school in the specific degree(s) that you are interested (2) how does it work into your affordability plan (3) does the school have alternatives if you realize primary degree isn’t working for you or have interests to fill your electives with.

      When evaluating “how good” look, don’t look at prestige. Look at accreditation, ranking, courses required/offered. Try to visit and talk with student groups to figure out how you’d fit in – a school that is great for person A may not suit person B which is totally valid.

      I did go to a top 10 engineering a college at a big name university however it was partly because it was <2hrs from my parents house so I could visit often and pay in-state tuition, and got a lot of advantages due to how good the program was. There was a heavy focus on fundamentals and practical application (For example, before using the standard programming libraries, we'd first have to program them ourselves to understand how it works under the hood, then get to use the neat shortcuts). While it didn't result in flashy things, grads usually got really good jobs. I managed to score a big name internship as a freshman back when it was unusual for juniors to get internships.

      Prestige universities don't mean good quality teaching, or they are only good in a few areas. The companies I work for stopped searching for interns or college grad from the typical Prestigious Branded Universities because they often taught pure theory in my field.

      Fitting in and being well rounded really helps. I really loved a small engineering college that had a great tiny program for the niche that I wanted, but I realized that I would feel stifled with only engineering classes as options (ended taking a variety of LSA electives as my "fun" non-tech classes), be stuck in a not great city, and realized the campus life was mostly frats because there was nothing to do outside of class

    59. ArawanVenus*

      I’m not an engineer but I did go the route of a small private liberal arts school for undergrad and large public school for a masters degree. I loved getting both experiences and don’t regret anything about my choices but seven years of higher education is a lot of debt to take on. Engineering (depending of the specialty) generally pays better than architecture (my field) but it’s worth considering if the extra loans are worth it especially when most engineering jobs don’t require a masters degree.

      That being said I would take into consideration that your daughter may change her mind about engineering once she’s in school so choosing a university that would allow her the chance to explore other majors too is always a good idea. I would also look at the reputation of the engineering department rather than the school’s name. Tons of lesser known schools have excellent programs and their grads can be just as competitive as someone who went to MIT.

    60. Cascadia*

      Hello! My husband is an electrical engineer and has his PE – he has a great job in the energy distribution field of engineering and does a lot of hiring, especially of entry-level engineers. He has an undergrad degree in engineering from a state school that has a solid engineering program and is known for it. I remember asking him about getting a masters degree, but he said it’s not really done in his field unless you want to go into academia. He was able to get a job right out of college, and has worked his way up at three different companies over the past 12 years. He started the process to get his PE right away after graduating, and that has GREATLY aided him in his career progression. He got work opportunities and salary increases that his fellow engineers are not eligible for due to having his PE. His company is also constantly hiring and looking for new talent – anyone coming in with a PE is a highly competitive and sought-after candidate as they need PEs to sign off on drawings and designs.

      As far as hiring goes, almost everyone he hires has an engineering undergrad degree. His company doesn’t look for and doesn’t care about having a masters degree, and it certainly won’t give you a boost towards getting hired there. They also don’t care about ‘big name’ brand recognition schools. If anything, they know the reputation of the engineering programs at various schools – an engineer from a large nationally-recognized state school with a fabulous engineering program may do far better than someone with an engineering degree from an ivy that’s not necessarily known for that.

      I’d recommend your daughter choose a college/university that has a robust engineering major, as well as other options. State schools are great for this, as they have so many majors to choose from. Well in many professions your undergraduate degree doesn’t really matter, it seems to matter a lot more in engineering – at least, depending on the type of engineering. I’d aim for something that will give her lots of options to choose from! I know for my husband as an electrical engineer, he still had to take classes in all sorts of other types of engineering, which greatly aided him in both narrowing down his preferred field, and with his FE and PE exams (which test you on ALL types of engineering, not just your subject matter expertise).

    61. Anon scientist*

      I was just talking to a forlorn physics student at a jobs fair who’s not getting any interest at all, while the engineering students in the engineering disciplines I work with (civil, environmental, geotechnical) have firms fighting each other for new grads. I felt bad for the kid, but in my particular discipline (environmental science) I have no use for someone with a “pure math/science” degree. I’d take a bio, chem, geo grad if I can’t get an engineer.

    62. McS*

      I have a physics undergrad degree (from MIT, which is a big name) and when I applied to engineering PhD programs, I heard literally “you’ll be fine, the physics students are always smarter.” I also just hired an engineer right out of school and another with just a few years of experience. I would say I don’t notice the difference between say MIT and UCSD on a resume. I am more interested in research or internship experience that might be relevant. But a weaker school would be a flag. I am hiring for relatively broad roles that require initiative and on the job learning more than top level modeling or analytical skills off the bat. I hire PhD holders for those.

    63. womp womp*

      I’m a woman who did an undergrad at one of the few SLACs that offer engineering degrees, graduated ~2010. I work for a big Silicon Valley co now (as an EE).

      In general, for engineers, I think college –> job as test engineer –> job as design/whatever engineer is a great career arc that a lot of people overlook. The right test engineer job can get you into design or whatever you’re really interested in faster than a graduate degree. Generally, these jobs aren’t all that hard to get, but it helps if you take programming classes in college or teach yourself how to do that. Really any language is OK, but C++ is dominant in (at least electronic) test and it’s relatively easy to learn other languages from there. Look for smaller-mid-sized companies, or large ones that tout opportunities for growth.

      If you do go the SLAC route, and don’t want to do test engineering, you have to go to grad school. I’d recommend a PhD over an MS because usually you don’t have to pay for a PhD at all (you get a stipend) and your advisor will help you find a good job after. Look for a prof with a pretty high profile in the field you want to go into and contact them directly with your CV and a polite note stating your interest. Polite but direct – say you want to join their group, don’t assume they’ll be open to that at this stage in the conversation. At highly regarded state schools, if you have a good GPA from a decent SLAC, they will almost certainly interview you as long as you do this. There is a general application process, and don’t miss dates for that, but the most effective way to secure a spot is to contact whoever you want to work with directly. Make sure they have a reasonable grad rate (~5y time to completion) and a rational approach to sending students to industry vs. academia as the next step (a Univ of Utah prof who only produces postdocs is to be avoided, but one who sends half their students to Intel is a great choice).

      For the SLAC–>PhD route in particular, also look for REUs as an undergrad. These are usually paid summer internships (if it’s not paid, it might be a scam). As a SLAC student, your recommendation letters will be a lot better than everyone else’s, so even if your GPA is meh, you are far more likely to get a position. Some REU programs weed out all freshmen/sophs, don’t get discouraged if you get rejected a lot at first. If you’re successful in a particular lab as an REU student, that can also be a great way to land a PhD position either with that prof or one of their colleagues.

      As a woman, I cannot recommend hyper-liberal schools, whether SLAC or big name U, enough. As a frosh engineering student, I didn’t have a ton of self-confidence and was often intimidated by my peers (even though a lot of them turned out to be way less competent than me). But I didn’t encounter anyone who openly questioned my place to be in engineering when I was an undergrad at all, so I was able to build confidence based entirely on my own performance in classes (I wouldn’t walk on a bridge I designed, but I’d trust my life to one of my circuits). I absolutely did encounter people who reflexively questioned my right to be here in my CA job and at my CA grad school – the longer you can delay interacting with that, the better off you will be. A mediocre blue SLAC will put you in a better long-term place than a top-level red engineering school.

    64. eminem*

      Liberal arts university Clark has a deal with Columbia University where you can do half and half, liberal arts experience at Clark and engineering at Columbia. However there is a really strict sequence of classes you need to take so there’s not as much flexibility as the usual liberal arts education. I don’t really see the point of it but it’s a thing you can do.

    65. Cohort 1*

      15/16 years old is very young. She may very well be set on being an engineer of some sort and just motor right on through to that end and be very happy when she is awarded a degree in Mechanical Engineering with a Specialization in Renewable Energy and Environmental Flows. Alternately she may discover llama grooming in her freshman year and change course altogether. Given that people here are saying that many schools have solid engineering programs, be sure to look first at those, but choose one that also will expose her to llama grooming, archeology, global health, marine biology, statistics, and Cognitive Science with Specialization in Machine Learning and Neural Computation. A university introduces kids to things they never even thought of before they got there and can set them on a whole new course.

    66. Spcepickle*

      Female civil engineer here who hires lots of people!
      1) Totally depends on what type of engineer she wants to be, want to come design roads with me you really need a civil engineering degree and to either have or be in your way to a PE license.
      I have a friend who designs the black boxes that keep helicopters up, has a physics degree.
      I also use to work with a women who has an MBA and did project management for my engineer firm.

      2) A masters degree is not critical for most working engineers, so I would start with an undergrad degree and only peruse a masters if it seemed really fun and she got funded (look at American association of university women they give nice scholarships for women engineers) or an employer paid for it (all the ones I have had offer tuition reimbursement).

      That said, many schools don’t have you declare a major right away and you can try the different types of engineering (I switched from aeronautical to civil in college, sooooo much happier).
      I would not worry about a name brand school, state schools will get you a job just as well and after your first job nobody cares where you went to school. I would prioritise internships and a co-op, so much easier to get a job with work experience.

      Lastly look at the professional engineer societies in town. American society of civil engineers most likely meets once a month in your area (so does SWE, and the electrical, structural, and environmental engineers) go to their meetings, I promise they would be THRILLED to visit with a high school student.

  6. Indigo64*

    One of my coworkers is Russian. In light of current events, I want to check in on her (we are all working remotely). She’s lived in the US for 10 years and married an American, but she speaks fondly about her childhood in Moscow and visiting family in Russia. What do I say? “Sorry your homeland is controlled by an oppressive dictator with no regard for human life…”

    1. ariel*

      “I’ve been thinking of you lately, how are you doing with everything in the news? If you want to chat next week, let me know and I’ll find a time to catch up.”

      2. WantonSeedStitch*

        Yeah, something like this sounds best. It doesn’t make any assumptions about your coworker’s views on the situation–just that the situation overall is stressful and clearly must be on her mind.

      4. UK Mommy*

        I haven’t had a performance review / appraisal since I returned to work after having my first baby in Feb 2020, nor even a 121, despite moving from working full-time to three days a week with a job share partner working the other two. Prior to having my daughter I had made it clear that I was interested in leadership training, & this is still the case, but I’m not being given any opportunity to raise this, or even to discuss how the new job share arrangement is working (pretty well actually, by all accounts). Any advice? I feel like having a baby has just removed any interest in how I’m doing at work from my managers, & that my aspirations are no longer cared for because I have young children…

    2. Attractive Nuisance*

      I would not mention the situation and just say “Hi, how are you? Thinking of you” or something like that. I appreciated a friend who checked in like that when I was the one affected by current events. It acknowledged that they were thinking of me (which I really needed to hear) without assuming anything about my feelings (which were complicated and not necessarily in line with what my friend would have guessed). It also didn’t make me feel like I’d been put on the spot to explain my feelings or their context.

    3. Purt's Peas*

      What about, “The news has been awful lately, so I wanted to check in. If you need any extra flexibility, etc, from me, let me know.” What would you have wanted to hear on Jan 6?

      1. Cj*

        Unless you have discussed such things, you can’t assume your Russian coworker is against the invasion of Ukraine, just like you can’t assume everybody in the US was against what happened on January 6th.

        1. allathian*

          Agreed, but not all Russians support Putin’s actions. I’m in Finland, and we have a 1,000 mile border with Russia. Russians are the biggest foreign minority here, and many of them are vehemently anti-Putin. Some of them left Russia because they don’t like the politics there. Many of them have reported an increase in anti-Russian prejudices. The biggest anti-war demonstration here so far was hosted by Russians who were angry about the war.

        2. Disco Janet*

          That’s pretty common sense – I doubt anyone needs to be informed of this as obviously people rarely 100% agree on politics and government. But if someone has a problem with news that involves innocent people dying referred to as ‘awful’, that is on them.

    4. Kat*

      I have a similar situation except my coworker/friend is Romanian with Ukranian friends and relatives. I just sent her a message telling her I was thinking of her and if she wanted to talk I’d be happy to be an ear for her.

    5. Nicki Name*

      I had a similar experience last year with my Indian coworkers when India was being walloped with delta covid. I found it was received well to gently ask how they were doing and how their families were doing, and then giving them space to say that there were not, in fact, doing fine.

    6. K*

      Please do that! just say something.
      I am Russian currently living in the UK, on skilled worker visa. My coworkers do not care, and didn’t even acknowledge the situation. I have to just carry on and work as if nothing happened while I am just dying inside.
      Also saying something along the lines of “it is not your fault” will be helpful. Many Russians feel deeply ashamed now, even though they didn’t vote for our current goverment and don’t support their atrocious actions.
      And there is real fear that it will affect our immigration status and we will have to go back to our terrible country.

      1. On Fire*

        I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this. Besides the embarrassment you mentioned, and the fear about your immigration status, I imagine you’re also concerned about friends and family back in Russia. This is not your fault, and I’ve watched in deep admiration as Russian (including those IN Russia, who can face dire consequences) have protested over the past couple of days. My husband visited Russia years ago, and he loved the people he met. Please have a virtual hug if you want it.

        1. K*

          Thank you, On Fire! I sppreciate your kind words.
          My friends and family in Russia are physically safe, it is not like somebody is going to bomb Moscow or St.Petersburg. But there are travel bans, and I am not sure I will ever be able to see them again. I think it is a part of government’s plan, to prevent talanted people from leaving the country. “Brain leakage” was huge in recent years.

          1. RussianInTexas*

            I was planning on having my mom visiting me in the US for the first time ever (I’ve been living here for 20 years), before she got too old. I don’t think it will ever happen now.
            I may have to start sending her money, unless money transfers between private persons will fall under sanctions too, because I don’t think she can deal with yet another severe economic crisis.
            Physically, my family is safe, they are spread between Moscow and Novosibirsk, but emotionally and financially?

            1. K*

              Yes, this. At least send her money while you still can.
              I am thinking where to go if UK home office denies my visa extension. Definitely not back to Russia.

        2. That-ptsd-chick*

          Sorry you’re going through this K. In my experience, it’s often that people have good intentions but don’t know what to say. I’m a queer person in Aus – there’s often hate crimes, hateful laws, or massacres in other parts of the world which just take their toll. One thing I appreciate from my colleagues is more the act of saying something, anything at all, rather than just being ‘business as usual’ when things really, really aren’t business as usual for me. Some stuff that’s been good in the past is ‘i saw X in the news, and wanted to reach out but didn’t know how to do it without making you uncomfortable’, or ‘i saw X in the news, and just wanted you to know I’m around for a chat or a proofread or whatever else I can do.’

      2. Gnome*

        I’m sorry your coworkers haven’t reached out. Hopefully it’s not that they don’t care but that they don’t think of you as “K, who is Russian” but just as K.

      3. Insert Clever Name Here*

        I’m sorry, K. It’s hard when people like you get lumped in with atrocious things the leader(s) of their country do, and other people in general are not great at remembering there are people in that country just as horrified as the rest of us. Hopefully your coworkers are being silent just out of fear of saying the wrong thing, not lack of caring or concern for you.

        And I know you said it yourself, but I’m going to say it to you as well: this is not your fault.

      4. Onwards and Upwards*

        Sorry this is happening to you, K. I have found it moving to see (in the news and on twitter) the protests from within Russia and from Russian people around the world. Hopefully many will see this footage (it seems to be v accessible and spreading fast). Very best of luck with what you’re going through.

    7. Spalva*

      I live in Latvia and I work at an international company and have colleagues in India. The last two days they have been worried for us, who are working in Latvia, and asking how we are doing. I think it’s nice of them. We tell them that we’re doing fine, nothing is happening here. (But of course we can’t help but worry if we might be next on Putin’s list so this situation is very upsetting. We even had a work meeting cancelled yesterday because nobody thought we would come up with any good ideas in this situation.)

    8. Sarra N. Dipity*

      Offer something concrete, if you can. “I’m happy to take notes in XYZ meeting for you if you need a break” or something like that. People who are affected by tragedies are often not able to come up with something specific when told “let me know if I can do anything…”.

    9. Chirpy*

      When I (American) was living in Spain in the early 2000s during an escalation of the Iraq War that sparked a lot of backlash in Spain, I appreciated my Spanish friends saying “we’re not mad at you, we’re mad at our government for siding with your government”. They also made sure I knew when and where the protests would be, so I could avoid the area. (Because it only takes one idiot in a crowd to make things go bad.)

      For a coworker I’d probably just ask how they’re doing, and let them know you’re willing to listen if they want to talk.

    10. RussianInTexas*

      Ask her how is she doing.
      Please, please, please, do not ask for her opinions on thongs that are happening, things she is not involved at, and had no control over. Questions like these always feel like interrogation, and always put people on defensive.

    11. KSinHE*

      When Covid first hit and there was the initial spike in harassment and violence against people of Asian decent (which is of course ongoing) I made sure to check in on my friends from China that were living in the U.S. Essentially, I just let them know that with everything happening I wanted them to know I was thinking of them and cared about them. This was before it really spread within the U.S. and so I also let them know that I hoped their families back home were well and I would be keeping them in my thoughts. Everyone is going to react differently, but my goal was to share that in a difficult situation I wanted them to know I cared about them.

    12. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      As someone of Baltic descent (who lives at the other corner of the world), I’ve been trying to avoid news for the past week. This is not the way I wanted my grandpa’s country to be mentioned on local tv…

      1. Attractive Nuisance*

        I feel you. My grandparents/great-grandparents were European refugees, and I’ve been surprised at how much I’ve found myself thinking about them this week and how intense my own feelings have been. I’m not Ukrainian, and they weren’t Ukrainian, so it feels weird that I’m reacting so strongly. But I am.

  7. Albeira Dawn*

    Performance reviews! They’re coming up in my company, starting next week, and this is my first office job after graduation. Thanks to Alison’s advice, I’m super excited rather than nervous. I have a list of projects I’ve worked on, the skills I gained, the deliverables I’ve produced, my goals for the next year, and a general idea of what direction I’d like my career to head.

    Any further advice?

    1. Bluesboy*

      It’s been a while since I’ve had a performance review, but one question I’ve had come up a few times is where I think I need to improve.

      I think it’s worth giving that a little thought pre-review, because otherwise you find yourself sitting there going “err…I’m not very good at X”. Much better if you’re prepared, because you can say not only “I think I need to improve my skills in X”, but also add “and so I’m doing courses/paying attention to how colleagues do it to learn from them/have asked Jenny to mentor me/etc”.

      Good luck!

      1. Nicki Name*

        There’s usually some kind of question about areas for improvement, but it doesn’t necessarily need to be something you’re bad at. If there’s a new tool or process you want to learn about, a certification you want to work toward, or some way of increasing your knowledge about the industry, those are all valid answers.

    3. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Yes, can you also show the business impact form what you delivered? I.e. delivering project x enabled the sales org to unlock $xxx in add’l sales, or because you ensured project y met industry standards/compliance requirements/whatever, it unlocked sales opportunities to these highly regulated industries. Also, HOW did you do the work? I.e. were you collaborative, or did you leave a minefield in your wake. Did you establish effective working relationships? Hope this helps!

    4. Lady Danbury*

      Brag file! Ideally, you have a folder where you’ve kept track of positive feedback received from coworkers, managers, clients, etc. If you haven’t kept track, hopefully you can find some examples in your email that you can share with your manager.

      1. Abc123*

        +1 for a brag file, or even seek out written feedback from teams you’ve worked with (especially if your boss is less familiar with those workstreams). I encourage the people I manage to do this in the months preceding annual review, and it’s so helpful for me to tell my manager “hey it’s not just me saying my direct report is great, here’s some thoughts from other departments”. It’s been very effective in getting some key staff promoted.

    5. Katie*

      Numbers numbers numbers. It’s good to state what you did but how is that better than expected? Stats can give you that. What were your areas of impact?
      For areas of improvement, frame it more as areas that you would like to develop. So you want to take on a leadership roles? Do you want learn a certain program, etc.

    6. Gordy*

      As a boss I like my employees to think about how I can support them better. I generally will go through “Start, Stop, Continue” with them… i.e. what do you need me to start doing, what do you want me to stop doing and what do you want me to continue to do that will help you meet goals/expectations.

  8. Unfettered scientist*

    So I’m a postdoc (science) and I’m thinking of pivoting into industry but the pay bands for most jobs are incredibly wide (60,000-140,000). Any ideas for how to figure out what a reasonable starting salary is? I’m in a major metro area and biotech/pharma hub.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Analytics can be the same way. From what I’ve learned, recruiters think about that range in years of experience. Right out of school would be on the $60K side and ten years of increasing responsibility would be the $140K side.

    2. Darlingpants*

      I’ve only been able to get good information (and “good” is relative. The different companies do actually pay differently enough for a $40k salary band) by making friends in the industry and flat out asking.

      But also your grad school career center should have a survey of salaries from everyone in your program (who filled out the survey) and their salary/geographic location. Mine was like 6 numbers in 5 places, so not that useful, but at least I knew it was accurate.

    3. Generic Name*

      Scientist here, working at a consulting firm. We often post positions with huge pay bands to account for different years of experience. So $60,000 might be entry level 0-1 year experience and $140,000 might be for someone with 20 years’ experience. And by “experience” I mean working in industry. I know that folks can spend many years in an academic environment, but industry really doesn’t see those years as equivalent experience as working in industry, fair or not.

    4. MooMooCow45*

      This is tough question! My instinct is to ask closer to the higher end of the salary range and see how things go in interviews/the offer itself. This way if they offer you something close to the higher end of the spectrum, you’ll be set.

      Another option – this is the cheatcode route – Public Universities, State institutions and government institutions post their salaries publicly. I would find someone with similar credentials to you, similar to a job you would be qualified for/interested in applying to. Then look up that person’s salary. Government jobs tend to be on the lower-medium end of the spectrum, so this will let you better gauge a reasonable salary.

      Best of luck in your search and congrats on being a post-doc! That’s awesome!

    5. SportyYoda*

      PhD candidate in a similar boat! I have no idea if BeyondTheProfessoirate has any upcoming webinars, but she’ll give advice about transitioning from academia to other jobs on a regular basis. Some of it boils down to “use our paid service!”, but some of it is helpful.
      I will admit… it’s weird being halfway between “entry level” and “mid level”; not totally experienced but not quite “properly trained”… I’ll have no idea what all I actually qualify for on a semi regular basis.

    6. JustaTech*

      Since you’re a post-doc (thus have a PhD) you’re going to be on the higher end, speaking as someone in the industry in a biotech/pharma hub (but without a PhD).

      As for places to ask, I’d try your alumni association (but only for your department), any local industry associations (like Women in Biotech), and Glassdoor.

      Whatever you do, don’t compare to academic salaries or use that as a “reasonable” baseline – academia catastrophically underpays (especially post-docs).
      Biotech, especially the cell therapy companies, are pretty desperate for staff, so they’re going to be offering big bucks.

      Good luck!

      1. PostalMixup*

        Agree with this. Also note that pay can vary company-by-company. I’m in a metro with ag, pharma, and life sciences companies, as well as smaller biotech, and even at the big companies, a Senior Scientist level position for a PhD with postdoc experience can range $75-$100.

        Do you know anyone working at these potential employers? They’ll be the best source for what you can expect from their particular companies.

    7. Snake Plant*

      I second asking any friends or family who are working in biotech/pharma, since they will obviously know real numbers! Also, I’m assuming that you are just looking at the area that you are near, but make sure that your search isn’t capturing salaries from other areas. This can happen for enormous companies that are headquartered in one area, but have multiple locations, and if some salaries are from Florida while some are in San Francisco of course you will have astronomically different numbers.
      I also wonder if the big pay band you are seeing is because your salary search is encompassing some lower-level positions as well. For some reason companies refer to a bachelors/masters level position as a Scientist, while for others that is reserved for PhDs. Very annoying.

    8. River Otter*

      You need to look at both the job title/job grade and the pay band. You are right that pay bands can be very wide, and that is true even for a given job grade. A PhD will be worth about six years of work experience, and the post doc will be worth an equal number of work experience. So for a given target employer, try to determine what the job title is for eight years of work experience, and expect to be in the lower 1/3 to 1/2 of that pay band.
      For example, if the job title is senior scientist II and the pay band for a senior scientist II is 70,000 to 130,000, you should expect an offer for between 90 and 100,000.

    9. K*

      Ask people who already work in industry! I can’t tell about the US, but in the UK salaries for scientists in the industry are way lower.
      Also iirc there were regular pharma salary surveys at the Derek Lowe’s blog “in the pipeline”.

    10. HR Exec Popping In*

      The mid-point of a salary range is designed to be where someone who is fully functioning at a high level with a few years experience in that role.

    11. samecoin*

      what field? my wife is STEM/Biotech and has worked in industry and academia. she has a masters so i have a pretty good idea of what the industry rate in a major metro area in the US is for “minimal” Advanced degree

      1. Unfettered scientist*

        I have a PhD in bio, wet work for phd but I’m fully computational now. My post doc is at a research institute so not fully academic or industry.

    13. Storm in a teacup*

      It will also depend on what you’re hoping to pivot into? Are you looking at going into development or research roles or transitioning into a medical or commercial role?

      1. Unfettered scientist*

        Dev/research side. Looking for SME:individual contributor roles in computational biology (a specific subset)

    14. Med Chemist*

      Starting salaries for a bench chemist at one of the bigger pharma companies with a phd is 115-120k at the moment. Smaller biotechs pay a bit less but the big players are all pretty consistent. San Francisco commands a bit more. There are a lot of chemistry jobs right now – it’s a good market.

      Source: Am a med chemist and on hiring committees.

    15. Managing to Get By*

      My organization has very wide salary bands also. The actual pay is close to the middle of the band, clustered around the midpoint. For example, if the band was 75,000 to 125,000, the midpoint is 100,000. We have to get executive level approval to pay below .9 and above 1.1, so in the above example most people would be clustered between 90k and 110k. We hire in at .9 to .95, maybe higher if we have a candidate with experience but we’re mostly hiring entry level. If someone has been in the position for many years they’ll be at 1.04 to 1.08.

      I have no idea why the bands are so wide when we are not allowed to use the upper or lower ends. The salary band for our entry level positions, where we usually hire, run from about 45k to over 75k. It really frustrates me when the recruiter gives the salary band info to a candidate. I am all for transparency, but we’re not going to be able to get approval to hire someone in at 65k let alone 75k so why disclose the full band when it’s not actually used? I asked the recruiter to give out the actual amount we pay, we have a set rate for entry level people right out of college, or even a small band around that amount, but got a lot of pushback.

  9. an inquiry*

    I’m curious to what you would do as far as a resume. I love my company but due to a personal situation I’ve come to realize I need to switch. My resume is a long story that I haven’t seen addressed on AAM. Hang in there with me.

    In 2008 during the recession I was laid off from Company A. I’m fortunate to live near a big city so even during hard times you could still find something to pay the bills. I signed up with a placement agency (Company B) that specialized in a niche I work in. For anonymity let’s say I’m a painter. I’ve painted buildings to personalized protraits – I’ve done it all. For simplicity in my story let’s call any temporary or consulting work, assignments.

    I had a great experience. I was able to get health benefits through Company B. While I had a few job opportunities along the way, but I liked the flexability being a temp on assignments offered. I stayed with Company B for a few years. In 2011 Company B had formed a partnership with Company C, my then-current assignment. Company C was a company that produced teapots and needed a painter. When I interviewed Company C (a temp assignment to perm position) explained that they would soon be splitting the company in two: Companies C and D since they had grown so much. I worked for Company C for 6 months and was permanently sent to company D after, which was now considered a subcompany of C.

    Company D was unique. They hired company B to help get set up the structure. Basically Company D was set up as consulting firm that went around to different companies (assignments) that dealt with all things teapots. I was hired to paint teapot displays and repair teapots whose paint has chipped. (I know I’m stretching things with this anonymity). My consulting assignments were anywhere from 3 months to 1 ½ years.

    In 2018 I was hired by Company E a client/ assignment of Company D (all done legally nothing malicious). Client E was a teapot distribution company as their lead painter. I was not a temp/ consulting/ going on assignments but a full time permanent employee in one location. I’m at a point now that I’m ready to move on from painting and teapot industries. I’m burnt out and have a family situation making it a good time to move on.

    As you can see, I’ve not really had to create a resume since 2008 as I was always hired from an existing employer. The thing is if you looked at my career at a top level view, I’ve theoretically been a temp/ consultant for 10 years straight for 2-3 different companies depending on how you count C+D splitting. In that 10 year period I’ve worked for 15 assignment companies. Most of my assignments were almost 1 ½ years but a few well known name dropping companies had me for 3 month assignments in between. In addition I picked up new skills along over the years, but most of my assignments had about 50% of the same job description – in every situation I had to analyze materials needed, primers, type of paint, environmental concerns. I’ve found ways to organize and streamline things, but my “new skills” came after the groundwork (50%) was done.

    I don’t even know how to put this all consolidated on a one page resume. I feel like I need a hybrid tradition and by skills resume. How does the below look? Any Suggestions?

    Company E (2018 – present)
    • Accomplishment 1
    • Accomplishment 2
    • Accomplishment 3

    Consultant / Temp Painter – Company B (2008-2011); Company C/D (2011-2018)
    • Assigned to work with companies xxx, xxx, xxx
    • Skill set 1
    o Accomplishment 1
    o Accomplishment 2
    • Skill set 2
    o Accomplishment 1
    o Accomplishment 2
    • Skill set 3
    o Accomplishment 1
    o Accomplishment 2

    Company A (2000-2008)
    • Accomplishment 1
    • Accomplishment 2
    • Accomplishment 3

    1. Ozzie*

      I swapped industries around 8 years ago, so things may have changed since then (and I haven’t seriously job hunted in nearly 6 years), so things may have changed a bit, but I previously worked a combination of stable jobs and contract work. When I was putting my outside-industry resume together to make the change, I divided my work experience into two sections. The first, was my “normal job” section, which looked like the type of thing you see in a “how to build a resume” section. Title, company, Dates of Employment on one line, then accomplishments at that job bullet pointed below. Under that, I had an “additional experience” section that was basically a single line for each contract that said job position, place of employment/project (if it wasn’t for a company), and time frame. This didn’t include any specific accomplishments (since the contracts were pretty self-explanatory within the industry), but did show work I had done, and more importantly, for an outside-industry resume, filled and employment gaps that appeared in the “normal” section.

      That being said, I don’t know that that type of format works for what you do, but I never got any questions about why it was laid out that way. People generally understood the difference, and it usually led to conversations about the different work I had done. So the combination resume did work for me (as I successfully changed industries).

      I think that your proposed layout would work, though I have to ask – is it necessary to lay out what skills you used at what job and when? It may be industry standard (because I’ve learned that can change things a LOT), but you may be able to be more economical with your space by simply working the utilized skill sets into the accomplishments for each position. (if fitting all relevant information on one page is a concern especially) You can also tailor what skills you put on display specifically around the jobs you’re applying to. If it’s unlikely that X or Y will ever come up at New Company, you can minimize the inclusion of them on your resume, and really focus on when you used A and B, since those are what New Company really need. While it’s useful to have an all-around resume, being able to tailor it a bit to each jo (to highlight the most important things to that company) can help you out as well so they can see that you will be an excellent hire for specifically what they are looking for.

      I don’t know if this is still a thing on resumes, but I have a “Skills” section that I used to note skills relevant to the job, especially if going through a robo-recruiter. I could complain about them as a system all day, but that doesn’t make them not used, and sometimes you have to configure your resume around what they’re looking for just so that you don’t get auto-sorted out. (though that seems like a thing you would be dealing with, since you work in a more niche industry and have for quite awhile)

      1. an inquiry*

        Thank you so much for your reply! The reason I put a skills section under the temp/ consulting work is maybe the incorrect wording. Basically I was trying to combined 10 years of work based on a broader task/ skill/ “subject”

    2. WellRed*

      There’s a little much going on here but for starters, if you get hired as an employee by a company, use that as your start date. If you work as a temp all that time, that is the employer you list. I don’t think you need to list every single company, maybe just several key companies. Apologies if I misread and curious what others say

      1. Gnome*

        I’ve seen that for consultants… Like Consultant 1999-2001. And then a bullet might name drop a client or two.

    3. Person of Interest*

      Agreeing with Ozzie – only flesh out the sections that are relevant to the job you are applying for.

    4. Gnome*

      Given your level of experience, you can safely use two pages, if that helps (read it elsewhere on AAM archives yesterday).

    5. Sea Anemone*

      I would change that middle part to:

      Company D (2011-2018) Consultant / Temp Painter (this would be whereever you put job titles – same line, new line, whatever)
      • Company XXX
      o Accomplishment 1
      o Accomplishment 2
      • Company YYY
      o Accomplishment 1
      o Accomplishment 2

      Company C (2011-2018) Consultant / Temp Painter (this would be whereever you put job titles – same line, new line, whatever)
      • Company QQQ
      o Accomplishment 1
      o Accomplishment 2
      • Company RRR
      o Accomplishment 1
      o Accomplishment 2

      Company B (2008-2011) Consultant / Temp Painter
      • Company ZZZ
      o Accomplishment 1
      o Accomplishment 2
      • Company WWW
      o Accomplishment 1
      o Accomplishment 2

      With skills, take a “show, don’t tell” approach. Write your accomplishments so they use your skills:
      Scrum Master for year-long llama upgrade project delivering 40 llama 2.0 models in six months,
      the accomplishment is delivering upgraded llamas, the skill set is scrum mastering.

    6. Sea Anemone*

      “depending on how you count C+D splitting”

      Whoops, I blew right by this part. This would change that line to something like
      Company D (2011-2018) Consultant / Temp Painter
      (was Company C 2011-2013)

    7. Lady Danbury*

      As previously mentioned, I would put the consulting company as your employer and would separate out Company B vs Company C/D. I would also use the wording “key clients include XYZ”, instead of “assigned to work with…” You should also double check any confidentiality agreements that you signed to ensure that you are allowed to share company names, let alone specific assignments with those clients. I would focus more on the companies where you had longer/more meaningful assignments versus the big names. If an interviewer asks you about your time with a specific client, you want to be able to share something impressive that you did. Depending on your employment status, I might actually leave C off your resume altogether. Did C actually hire you independently of B or were you always a temp through B while you were working at C?

      Other than that, it should follow the normal resume format where you show rather than tell what you did in those roles. That may include a combination of accomplishments or responsibilities but I don’t think that having a skillset for each role is necessary. If anything, I’d put those in a summary or separate key skills section where you edit the highlighted skills based on the job that you’re applying to. Not separating out assignments by client also reduces the risk of you creating any confidentiality issues. It would probably help to google consulting/consultant resumes for examples.

      TLDR:
      Company E (2018 – present)
      • Accomplishment/responsibility 1, etc.

      Consultant – Company C/D (2011-2018)
      • Key clients xxx, xxx, xxx
      o Accomplishment 1, etc.

      Consultant – Company B (2008-2011)*
      • Key clients xxx, xxx, xxx
      o Accomplishment 1, etc

      Company A (2000-2008)
      • Accomplishment 1, etc.

      *If health benefits were provided, consultant is probably a more accurate description than just a temp.

    8. Purple Cat*

      Seconding that you can definitely spread out to 2 pages.
      I agree with focusing on Temp Company as the main heading, but then including the major companies you were assigned to underneath it. Think of your resume as your highlight reel too. What are the BIGGEST things you accomplished at each assignment and list those. I would focus on the new skills you’ve developed because it should be fairly obvious that with your experience the basics were well covered. And discuss that in your cover letter – something about building on a strong foundation of x, y, z skills and then expanding your skillset by working with a variety of firms…

  10. TV Researcher*

    Starting a new job on Monday after being a freelance contractor for a year after a layoff from a position I’d had for 9 years. So, it’s been a decade since I had a first day of work. What are your best pieces of advice? Questions to ask? Etc.

    1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Expect to find the first day and week tiring, and keep your focus on understanding the big picture of culture, roles and responsibilities for your department and company. Ask a lot of questions along the lines of “who is the best person to speak to if I have a concern with X?” Finding your feet is as much about knowing who is who as it is about figuring out your computer passwords and all that classic first day stuff.

      The key is that when you have all those early stage questions you know who to talk to if you don’t want to bug your boss – where is the photocopier and so on.

      Focus on small accomplishments so you feel you have a few wins under your belt.

    2. Ozzie*

      The most important thing about starting a new job to remember, to me, is that no one expects you to know things. You’re new, and everyone knows that. It’s ok to say “I don’t know” and then learn. And to ask where the bathroom is, or to forget a door code. No one is judging you! So don’t feel like you’re unprepared or will never get it or anything. Everyone has been there with every new job, and everyone understands.

    3. Grits McGee*

      Bring a couple Cliff Bars or something small and room temperature that you can substitute for lunch! I didn’t get a lunch break on my first day at my current job due to onboarding snafus and had to snarf a couple down running from one meeting to another. Plus, you don’t have to worry what the refrigerator/kitchen set will be, or wonder if you’re going to be taken out for lunch on your first day.

    4. the cat's ass*

      Congratulations!
      I have a lucky pair of earrings for this sort of thing!
      Comfortable biz outfit.
      Fully charged phone.
      Power bars for lunch/break
      Figuring out where the nearest bathroom is.
      Notebook to jot things down even tho they’ll be second nature in a few months.
      Good luck!

    5. newbie*

      Congrats on the new job! I just started a new role last week and I’ve found it really helpful to take notes, to ask my manager to arrange intros with folks I need to meet (our company is fully remote) and to ask a lot of questions during training sessions.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      With any new job I have asked questions about what is under my watch and what I need to pass on to a different person such as a boss or other department. This includes Qs about the limits of authority for my given position. The way I handle the questions is by asking in the moment with specific examples. What triggers my asking is if something seems very unusual in relationship to what I have already learned about the job.

    8. Midwest Manager*

      Congrats on the new job!
      Be sure to bring a filled water bottle. You’ll be talking a LOT to many new people on the first day.
      Wear something comfortable, but within dress code standard for your org.
      A notebook/pen to keep track of all the information getting thrown at you
      Pay close attention to the HR person when they go over benefits enrollment deadlines, payroll information, and other relevant details. These are likely to be the most important takeaways from your first day.

      Good luck, and have fun!

    9. BookJunkie315*

      Carry a notepad and pen with you to write down as much as possible! Especially important to note is which person to go to for what, processes, and who to contact for questions or assistance. Bring protein bars and an apple or other easy to eat fruit/vegetable in case your meeting/training schedule does not allow for breaks. Be friendly and ask questions. Good luck!

  11. Tricksie*

    Current job: Fine. No potential for advancement. Kind of bored. Overall negative workplace, but have some decent people around me. Lack of appreciation, lack of forward movement, not great boss.

    New job offer: Pretty exciting opportunities, lots of potential for advancement. New boss seems dynamic, is already strategizing with me and LISTENING to my input and thoughts. BUT involves more driving, about 4 hours a week extra driving. And is a lateral salary move, actually $2k less than current job (with opportunity to make an extra $16k with a side thing they offer, but then that’s some extra time). Would mean 2 nights/week of not being home, BUT they pay for that. Workplace is thriving and growing, progressive.

    …Would it be stupid to take the new job? Since it’s not a raise? Any thoughts?

    1. Clicky*

      I think you should go for it! You described the new offer with more detail and positive adjectives than your current job and you sound like you’re into it. Life’s too short to be stuck at a stagnant place that doesn’t appreciate you.

    2. Американка (Amerikanka)*

      I am in a similar stagnant job situation with no advancement opportunities. If I had your opportunity, I would seriously consider taking it to sharpen professional skills, grow my network, and have advancement opportunities. I wonder if a higher pay could be negotiated (I know AAM had tips on this).

    3. CatCat*

      No, it would not be stupid. It sounds like you are stagnating where you are and excited about this new opportunity. Why not see if you can negotiate so the offer is higher on pay?

    4. Tricksie*

      This is the pay ceiling they can offer right now, unfortunately. I’m working on other things they may be able to offer instead of pay…but I am honestly a bit worried about the pay, too.

      1. WellRed*

        If you are worried about money I wouldn’t take it because the side opp sounds iffy (and possibly sketchy).

        1. Tricksie*

          It’s not sketchy–this is all related to a university position and it is adjuncting at a high pay rate…

      2. Aggretsuko*

        Especially since it sounds like you’ll be paying a LOT more in gas, even if you weren’t getting a pay cut.

      3. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        I’d have a hard look at your finances. Would the $2k (and higher commuting costs like gas, wear and tear on the vehicle, etc.) make a dent or is your salary at a point where it is more about keeping score?
        What are the benefits, PTO etc. like?
        And very important: Talk with your family how being away from home more affects them (unless you are living alone or with roommates that don’t get a say, even then it may affect scheduling chores).
        If after that exercise the new job still looks the better option, go fir it – otherwise keep looking, it’s not that these two are your only options.

      4. DJ Abbott*

        Sorry, I don’t know anything about academia. But generally, is the pay at market value for the position? If it’s below market value, that means they don’t like to pay and might give very small or no raises.
        Would you still want the job if that was the case? If you had to move on in a year or two?

    5. Green great dragon*

      How does new job compare to other options out there? Current job doesn’t seem the right answer, but there are more than two jobs in the world.

      Does potential for advancement mean you might be back up to current pay levels in a year, or 5 years, or only if you shine? Do you have 4 spare hours a week? Are any of the new job downsides negotiable, like remote work to get commute time back?

    6. dresscode*

      To me, this very much depends on your current life circumstances. For me, 4 hours extra driving a week with overnight stays would be a no-go, because I have a small child and a husband that travels. If I were single, probably yes. If I was just married, maybe, depending on the travel aspect.

    7. Ama*

      One other thing to think about is, would taking the new job (even if you only stay for a few years) position you better for the kind of career/job you want down the line? It sounds like you could advance internally at the new job, which is great, but could just getting a couple of years experience there, even if you don’t advance, make it easier to get a job you really want?

      I’ve made a lateral move in my career and I’m thinking about making another one (I am this time willing to take a little less than I currently make for the right opportunity) — and in both it cases, it was because I wanted to shift the kind of work I was doing and it was more valuable to me to move to a position where I could do that work and be in the sector I wanted to be in then to advance financially.

    8. ecnaseener*

      As a thought experiment, how would you feel if it turns out all these elements that sound great are actually just okay? The boss is on their best behavior right now but turns out to be middle-of-the-road, the opportunities don’t materialize, etc. And you’re driving 4 extra hours a week with 2 nights away from home. Will it still be better than your current situation?

      I don’t know the answer and I’m not saying this is what WILL happen, it’s just worth considering — the cons of this new job are probably exactly as they appear, the pros sound a little fuzzier.

    9. wannabe leslie knope*

      I recently left a job where I felt similar to your description of your current job, and finances were my number one priority. The fact that I already had a job helped me to be confident in waiting for the right opportunity, not just taking the first offer because I wanted to leave. It took me about 4 months, but I really love my new role and company. Also you mentioned this offer includes more driving – that also includes more gas which is really expensive right now, and more wear & tear on your vehicle, so that new role might actually cost you more. There are a lot of opportunities out there right now, and you can find one that is exciting AND pays you more.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Four hours per week in bad weather is more like eight hours per week. Can you wfh? Can you wfh often?

      Do you like driving? How’s your car? Do you think you can ride-share?

    11. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      What are your other commitments? If you also have say young children or pets, or other commitments where being unavailable multiple nights/week would create a stressful situation, I would say no and keep looking. But if you’re wondering what your sub-conscious is saying, your enthusiasm about the new role does come through in your writing :) So seems like you’ve already decided, but also really think about the change to your schedule and if that would cause more trouble than it’s worth.

    12. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

      That would be tempting for me although the biggest drawback would not be the pay cut but the extra half hour each way for a commute and the two nights/week away from home (Is that overnight on call? Travel?)

      That commute add-on shaves off an hour of your non-work day. Yeah, you can fill it with podcasts (or other stuff if you’re not driving) but that’s a big consideration. Case in point: my old job was an hour each way. New job is 20 minutes each way. It would take a substantial increase to get me to go back to that commute.

    14. Picard*

      option 1 sounds like youre already mentally checked out
      option 2 sounds like a step backwards – 4+ more hours driving is not small AND less money? NOPE.
      I would be looking for option 3.

    15. RagingADHD*

      I think it matters what stage of life you’re in, and what your other obligations are. Are you caregiving kids or a dependent adult? Are you in a relationship, and if so, how much do you and your partner collaborate on lifestyle & money decisions? How far from retirement are you?

      If the extra commute isn’t going to screw up a major piece of your life, you can handle the salary cut temporarily, and you have the prospect of working there long enough to see substantial growth, then go for it.

    16. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      I am not sold on the new job. Clearly you are not excited in your current job, but as for the new job, you only know the positive sales pitch they want you to hear, and things like “potential for advancement” and “seems dynamic” could be smoke and mirrors. You also say the new place is “thriving and growing, progressive”… is that a fact, an assumption or part of their sales pitch? Have you spoken with anyone who holds a similar position at this new company about what it is like to work there? They are offering less salary, a longer commute–that’s reality. Are they offering you a higher title at least?

  12. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    I am having the BEST end to my work week. Yesterday, I shook our HR until the promotion I’ve been trying to finalize for one of my team members for a month fell out, including the huge raise I was trying to get for them because HR lowballed them when they started and they’ve been behind the eight ball ever since. Then I got to offer them the promotion, which they accepted.

    This morning, I got to not only announce that promotion to my team (who was all very excited for the team member in question), but also share with them that our org is giving all team members at their level bonuses – amount depending on their longevity with the org, but almost all of my team was in the four-digits bucket. There were happy tears – some of them mine.

    AND THEN someone handed me pancakes for breakfast. BEST DAY.

    6. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

      I now have a work appropriate expression for a wonderful day: “A raise… and pancakes.”

  13. Esmeralda*

    Interview next week for a lateral position. It’s in my same office. Any advice on interviewing with coworkers?

    1. Dragonfly7*

      Don’t assume they know what you do, how you achieve your successes, etc. (Even my supervisor only has a vague idea on some of mine because she is very hands-off.) Provide context for why you do things the way you do. Explain everything just as thoroughly as you would during an interview for an outside position.

      1. Public Sector Manager*

        Even when they do know what you do, pretend they don’t. It’s the biggest mistake people in my office make when going for a promotion (our lateral moves are informal and require no formal interview). They will say, “well, you and I working on that issue for X” and then they give zero detail. Of course, had they given the necessary detail, then would have the promotion in hand.

        So absolutely go into the interview like you’re talking to a stranger.

    2. Leilah*

      If the interviews are with multiple co-workers at a time, try to remember not to get too insider-baseball, because you don’t want some members in the interview team to feel alienated. Dress up as professionally as you can, to me that really helps me get in “super professional” mode instead of buddy mode.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If there are any professional skills you have that aren’t a part of your current position, that your coworkers wouldn’t know about, bring that to their attention. If you belong to any professional organizations or are taking any professional development classes, highlight that too. They may already know (or not — people get focused on their own stuff), but reminding them during the interview is important.

    4. TradeMark*

      Interviewing with people you know is so tough! I’ve done it a number of times for promotions in my current organization. My advice is to not assume that they know what you do and how well you do it. In that kind of situation, there can be a temptation to figure that folks should already know this impressive thing you did, or the way you manage the llama grooming process, but you kind of have to assume they don’t. In other words, mostly treat it like another job interview. Mostly :)

    5. SansaStark*

      I’ve done a bunch of these, too, and I agree with the other commenters saying not to assume that coworkers will remember what you did, even big accomplishments. I like to acknowledge the working relationship that we have while also providing context that they may not have or remember. So I would maybe start a few answers with something like, “You might remember the Llama Grooming Project that we started in 2019 to achieve ABC….”

    6. Gnome*

      From the you interviewing them side (interviews are two ways, right?) think about what purpose each coworker has in the interview and ask them questions relevant to how things would change. E.g. Fergus, I know you’ve been involved in Teapot advertising for the department, would we be working closely together on the new accounts? Esmeralda, how do you see this position interacting with your own?

      Of course, if you would be supervising any of them, you can ask about how their past manager has supported them successfully. If you will be in an adjacent group, you can ask about how the successful candidate would help the groups work together or what kids if issues they see there, etc.

      Don’t go into the weeds, but you can use your knowledge to ask questions that can both highlight your strengths and help you determine if you want the job.

    7. Workerbee*

      You can relax a bit since you know the people somewhat and can speak intelligently as to work protocols and culture, but otherwise treat it as an interview with strangers in a strange place. Application filled out, resume up to date, good personal presentation, etc.

      Good luck!

    8. Policy Wonk*

      Prepare as if you don’t know them. I’ve seen people totally bomb interviews like this because they didn’t think they needed to prepare. Don’t assume they know about your work and your accomplishments, and be ready to explain them. Be prepared for the snarky co-worker to ask a gotcha question and don’t react. About the only difference in an interview like this and one for a new company is that you don’t need to spell out common acronyms used in your work place.

    9. JustJess*

      As an internal candidate you likely have more information and have been able to talk to people internally about the role. Even if you think you know the answer already, still ask questions. When interviewing internal candidates I often found they asked fewer (sometimes zero) questions and seemed less engaged than external ones, which didn’t help their candidacy for positions where I was hiring externally as well.

    10. Mint Kat*

      Imagine there’s an extra person sitting just out of sight who doesn’t know anything about you and needs to be told things your other interviewers May know. Answer as if you’re talking to that person!

  14. Американка (Amerikanka)*

    Does anyone have any suggestions of when to tell one’s boss they are looking for another job? I am hoping to change fields in academia (think clerical to student affairs) and am currently in a graduate program. Since I am over halfway through the program, I am applying for jobs.

    I was told in the past not to say anything unless I have an interview lined up. However, my boss once said that he would want to know if one of the people he manages was looking for another job. I am hesitant to tell him too soon because of our power difference.

    In general, he is hands off and does not meet with me regularly. I dislike this about him but hope this will help me fly under the radar.

    1. Name (Required)*

      Every boss would like to know that someone they manages is looking for a new job, but it is NOT in your best interest to tell him anything until you actually have a firm, non-contingent, written offer and are giving notice.

    2. Whynot*

      Wait. You have the ability to stay easily under the radar and as Alison frequently says, you don’t want to put yourself in a position to be pushed out before you’re ready to move on or be passed over for opportunities because “they’re leaving anyway”. Boss wanting to know vs you having job security until you’ve got an offer in hand? No contest.

    3. ariel*

      I think the next time you meet, you can mention that you are looking forward to finishing up your degree. If he picks up on that and asks about your plans, great, if not, I would coast. Sure, bosses want to know but… if he can’t read the writing on the wall that you’re getting a masters and would move on or asking about your plans in your role, that’s on him!

    4. Американка (Amerikanka)*

      Thanks everyone! I will continue to stay under the radar for now (especially since I am getting my graduate degree part-time through tuition remission connected to my job). Being pushed out would be terrible!

      Here’s hoping 2022 will be the year I (and everyone else in my shoes) gets a new job!

    5. Pocket Mouse*

      If he knows about your masters program and how much time you have left in it, he has at least as much information about your career plans as he can reasonably expect. If he’s surprised when you give notice, that’s on him.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I agree that the general rule is: don’t tell your manager you’re job hunting until you have an offer you are planning to accept/have accepted. Your boss may want to know when you start interviewing, but that’s not your problem.
      It’s almost certainly because it’s easier for them to plan for your departure and not because they want to figure out how to keep you. It doesn’t sound like this boss is too invested in you or your career if he’s that hands off, so I don’t see any upside to telling him until you are ready to leave.

    7. Bagpuss*

      He may wat to know but that doesn’t mean that it is in *your* interests for him to know.
      If he perceives you as having one foot out of the door he may be les likely to offer you opportunities , chances to progress / stretch yourself .
      Also , he’s hand off and not checking in with you regularly.
      What (if any) benefit would there be to telling him?

      If there is a genuine benefit to you – for example, if he has a track record of actively supporting staff to move on, pro-actively recommending them etc, then sure, tell him. Otherwise – probably best to wait.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Hmm. You raise a good point here that I hadn’t considered. It doesn’t sound like Amerikanka’s boss is the supportive type, but it IS good to think about the fact that a truly supportive boss might actually be helpful in a job search. Heck, my boss is probably that kind–I can imagine them going, “Oh, you’re applying for the Director of Llama Care position at Llamas R Us? That would be a great step for you. I know their Head of Ungulates–that’s who you’d be reporting to. Let me send them a recommendation!”

    8. HR Exec Popping In*

      Do you want him to know? And if so, why? If it is just because you think he would want to know, well that isn’t a good reason. If your boss was awesome and would support you in your job search that would be a good reason. If you wanted your boss to do something to keep you that might be a good reason. This doesn’t sound like that is the case so I would not recommend telling him.

    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      The best time to tell your boss you’re looking for a new job is after you have accepted an offer.
      I ADORE my boss. They are amazing, I don’t think they would ever try to push me out early or hold it against me if they knew I was looking for a new job. But still, there is nothing for me to gain in telling them if I look for a new job before I actually HAVE a new job. Now, because I am fond of my current job and appreciate my boss, if I WERE to accept an offer elsewhere, I would try to negotiate for a start date more than two weeks in the future, in order to give me time to wrap things up at my current job and help my boss and my team to prepare for a transition. But that’s about it.

  15. H*

    After getting a tenative offer and going through a security background, I got an email yesterday about asking me to start a job on March 14…they said if I needed a later date they would come back to me with some options. I emailed them within 30 minutes because I need a little more time to give notice and I would like at least a few days off but now haven’t heard anything via email in nearly 24 hours…should I call and ask about later options? They mentioned it in an email saying they could likely accomodate a later start date. I just though March 14th was SUPER tight and they wanted to be confirm a start date before giving me the final offer and I wouldn’t be able to give notice without that really?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      They are prob figuring out when the next onboarding is. If it’s a bigger company, they likely have formal onboarding processes. They may only have one a month.
      Or your new manager may be on vacation later in March so they are sorting out schedules. I wouldn’t be worried, it just takes some time to work out the details.

    2. 1qtkat*

      I would give it a few days. Sounds like an offer from a government agency and they can move rather slowly on their end since they have to involve a lot of different people in a decision.

    3. justanobody*

      Hey H, you don’t yet have an offer in writing that you and the new employer have agreed to. You’re right; definitely don’t give notice to your current employer. Lot’s of companies take longer than 24 hours to respond, so I wouldn’t be nervous about that.

      1. calonkat*

        Seconding justanobody, until you have an offer in writing, you’ve got nothing. My daughter had this sort of situation and it turned out while they offered her a job in person and text (she was interning for the company), when it came time to put it in writing they didn’t have a job to offer her. Which we found out when getting her a non-college apartment in that city.

    4. Insert Clever Name Here*

      I would wait a few days and check in again. And I’d clarify that you’d need X days from the *formal* offer :)

    5. LawBee*

      You can 100% ask for a) a firm offer before giving notice and b) to delay the start date. For the firm offer, you can even tell them that you can’t give notice at your old job before you have a firm offer in writing with all the details – it’s a very reasonable request. And they’ve already said they’re flexible on the start date so that’s not even something you need to worry about. But yeah – it sounds like onboarding /training schedules. Congratulations on the (hopeful) new job!

      1. usernames anonymous*

        Yes – don’t resign until you have the confirmed offer from the new company. And also check that you have cleared any requirements such as medical or background checks. They may want you to start asap but you never know what can come up. I’ve had candidates delayed for a couple of months because something was flagged during those checks – they eventually cleared but it does happen.

  16. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    Hello team awesome! I’m doing some light training sessions at work with our team members who are either new to working for a big corporate company (media agency fyi) or just new to working in offices/in first jobs, and my first few sessions will be on the care and maintenance of Outlook inboxes/calendars, on time keeping and prioritizing, on presentations (on one PowerPoint, another on presenting in general- voice, tone, audience, etc). Anyone have any killer tips in these areas? I have several from my own perspective but want to be well rounded.

    1. Albeira Dawn*

      Embrace folders in Outlook!
      If your company has job numbers or another way to identify different projects, always always always include that in the subject line of any emails you send related to that project!
      Keep a list or spreadsheet of the people you work on projects with, internal or external, their contact info, and anything important to remember about them!
      If you’re not sure what to prioritize, make a draft of a list and go over it with your supervisor!

    2. annon*

      If you have access, linkedinlearning has some videos on what to do in your first 90 days in a job. Those are helpful.

    3. Camellia*

      Be sure and tell them your company’s culture regarding how quickly emails are answered. In my current company, emails are treated like instant messages – you are expected to respond quickly, within 2 to 5 minutes most of the time. That is different from any other company for which I have worked so I always mention it to new people, otherwise co-workers start to complain that “so-and-so never answers their email”. Or, if your company is okay with ‘answer within 24 hours’ or whatever the culture is, please share that.

    4. Green great dragon*

      Some new-to-work people need to hear that I am asking them things in order to find the answers, not to test their knowledge. They should definitely not give me the answer they think is true in the expectation that I will tell them whether it’s right or not. This was a painful lesson for both me and new starter.
      Just saying they are responsible for their own prioritisation and to do lists, and should write things down. It is up to them to tell me if they are overloaded or likely to miss a deadline.
      Powerpoint tip – use the title to give the main message of the slide. ‘Llama grooming instructions 1’ or ‘how to tie up a llama’ wastes space, time and attention, ‘Tying up your llama prevents inappropriate browsing’ followed by the key llama tying up points is better.

    5. Ama*

      I have actually found the color categories in Outlook crucial to the management of both my inbox and my calendar — my categories match up with my folders, and I have as many rules set up to auto assign categories as I can get to work so sorting is really easy (for example, I have a filter for each department here and auto assign emails from my coworkers in those departments to the appropriate category for their department).

      Easy sort filters are something a lot of people don’t know about but which are really great — I have one set up for all the random industry newsletters I receive, which can be useful to read at times but which tend to clog up my inbox, that way it puts them all in one location and I can delete them all at once (especially when I come back from vacation, I’m not going to spend time catching up on newsletters so getting them out of the inbox so I can see the real emails I received while out is very useful).

      Reminders are also a great way for me to deal with emails that I need to respond to but which I have to go look up some information, or which I need to follow up on if I don’t receive a response in a certain amount of time.

    6. Leilah*

      The biggest issue we have that gets missed with new hires is the email retention policy (30 days) and the best way to get around it — dumping your sent and deleted folder into an Archive folder monthly.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        ^I use a rule for this (all sent items immediately copy to an archive folder) so I don’t need to do it manually at all (and all inbox items are moved to a Processed folder by me, unless they were already filtered to another folder or deleted because I don’t need them). Saved my bacon on more than one occasion!

    7. Nessun*

      Using the conditional formatting to highlight certain people’s email. I have a lot of email every day, but there’s one Big Boss who requires immediate responses or immediate action on his stuff, so seeing it in my inbox is very important. I use conditional formatting to make his email one font point bigger, and in a different colour, so I always see it as soon as I view my inbox. For a while, I had a second boss who could be rather eccentric, and knowing she’d emailed as soon as I saw it was good, even if I didn’t need to action anything, so she was a different colour again.

      I love using categories, to sort work, create to-do lists, and because I can fold up the categories I don’t immediately need to view. Sometimes a large inbox can be unwieldy or stressful to look at, so if I can collapse a category to make things tidier it helps my headspace.

      Also second/third people who mentioned folders – having folders for various projects or staff is very helpful, and keeps me organized. I frequently get asked to look at something they already sent, and keeping it in a folder moves it out of my inbox but also files it appropriately where I can easily locate it.

    8. Gordy*

      In Outlook calendar… How to use the scheduler function. I live by my calendar and it’s always jammed, and having to have back and forth with someone over when I’m available kills my life. Set up a meeting, check in the scheduler and see where I have a gap.

      For PowerPoint presentations…
      1. Don’t write what you plan to say. The PowerPoint slide needs to add to your presentation, not BE your presentation.

      2. Embrace white/blank space in the slides. A busy slide is going to take all of your audience’s attention and they’re going to miss what you are saying.

      3. When presenting, don’t talk at the slides. Face and talk to the people.

      1. allathian*

        The best thing about doing presentations on Zoom or Teams is that you can look at the slides.

        That said, the slides should emphasize key points rather than be the whole presentation. When you’re doing online presentations/webinars, the temptation to fill up your slides is even greater, because most people will be looking at them on their computer screen rather than a TV or projector in a conference room, so you can get away with a smaller font, at least technically.

        If you’re used to presenting in person, the first time you’re talking to the void where you can’t see most of your audience on camera is going to feel weird.

    9. Attractive Nuisance*

      Presenting tips!
      1. Speak in full sentences that end in a pause. Many people string their sentences together with filler words or just with more extensions of their thoughts. This can make it difficult for the audience to follow the line of reasoning. Pausing between sentences can also help prevent the speaker from talking too fast.
      2. Rehearse your presentation. I give short presentations (5-10 minutes) so I try to rehearse them five or ten times – which only takes an hour. Rehearsing the presentation helps you figure out the right phrasing, identify missing pieces of information, and familiarize yourself with the material. When you are rehearsing, try to think of it as an improv exercise, not a memorization exercise.
      3. When you talk about your work, you are likely to come up with some new realizations about it. This is another reason why it’s important to rehearse! You want the new ideas to come before the presentation, not during it. If you do get a breakthrough in the middle of a presentation, file it away for later and continue on with what you’ve planned to say.
      4. Structure your presentation the same way you would structure an essay. Thesis statement at the front. Then supporting evidence. Then repeat the thesis statement. For some reason people often have the impulse to present in chronological order, where they spend 20 minutes explaining the work they did and then end with their main point. Never do this.

    10. knitcrazybooknut*

      One of my Outlook hacks is to edit any emails that may be about something, but don’t include the text that I would immediately search for.

      As an example, I spent an hour searching for an email about our “wifi” when the sender had instead used the term “wireless”.

      So I edited the email to include the words “wifi router hot spot internet” and anything else that I might have searched on that wasn’t included.

  17. Let me clear my schedule for you*

    Our annual performance reviews are coming up in the next week. With this, we get our bonus and raise information. Usually the raises are COLA only, not really a raise per se. In November, my company announced that all employees will start at $15 but I’ve worked my way up from the bottom, starting at about $11/hr 13 years ago. I’ve only really received two raises that entire time. How do negotiate a raise that puts me in a fair market range for my job? I’m definitely more than a little miffed that there were no raises for long-term employees. My company is a Fortune 500 so I’d also be dealing with a lot of middle managers and corporate red tape. Thanks!

    1. justanobody*

      Do some research to see what compensation is provided to similar positions with similar longevity in your area and take that info to your boss when you ask for a raise.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      For a while now it has seemed to me that there is no advantage to staying with a company as new hires are paid more and more but long term employees remain the same. Ask them what they are doing to encourage longer term people to stay put when those people can get paid more for a starting rate at another company.

      Decades ago, I worked at a place where the new hire made about 50 cents less an hour than people like me who had been there 10 years. Loyalty was not valued.

      1. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

        Ayup. My current employer was advertising for “Llama trainers with five years experience. $25/hour to start.” This was fine until they told the current llama trainers, who have been with the company for five years, and who make less than $25/hour, who will be training them.

      2. Let me clear my schedule for you*

        “Ask them what they are doing to encourage longer term people to stay put” I like that. Thank you!

    3. Midwest Manager*

      Put together a list of your accomplishments, gather data on the current market rate in your field/area of expertise based on current job postings, and mentally prepare yourself to hear “nope.” Read Alison’s tips on how to negotiate a raise or job offer. Have a Plan B ready to go if your request is declined.

      As a Fortune 500 org, they likely have set pay bands, department budgets, and detailed HR practices for handling this sort of thing. There may even be information on the process in the Employee Handbook.

      Good luck!

    4. DJ Abbott*

      The same thing had happened at the grocery store I worked in. My city raised its minimum wage and the store decided to pay all employees that same wage without paying long-term employees more. This tanked morale and two of the long-term associates I worked with left. None of the ones I talked to were happy.
      My only advice is be prepared to hear no, and it might be time to look for a better job.

  18. CatCat*

    If a job posts a range that’s pretty broad (like a $30k-40k difference between the bottom and the top), but you’d ONLY be interested in the job at or near the top of the range (and you are well above the minimum qualifications for the position), is there a way to politely include that information in the cover letter so as not to waste anyone’s time?

    1. I was told there would be llamas*

      I wonder this too…seems like this would be a good one for Alison. I saw a job with a range of like $110k – $170k…how is that supposed to be helpful?!

    2. Another person again*

      I have not found one – I tell them when they call me for screening or to set up an interview. They generally expect that if you are well qualified you will be looking toward the top of the range, not the bottom.

    4. CatCat*

      My experience in my current round of interviews is that there haven’t been phone screenings.

      I am not asking about how to raise this in phone screenings.

      1. Insert Clever Name Here*

        Speaking for my company (a public utility), make sure that if there’s a spot on the application to include the salary you’re looking for that you hit at the top of the advertised range. But then again, we 1) don’t post salary ranges in external job postings, 2) don’t discuss salary ranges in interviews with external candidates, and 3) still ask for salary history on applications…so.

        (I am aware how absolutely horrible 1-3 are and don’t have power to change that)

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        Then maybe as part of the back-and-forth when setting and confirming an interview time? I agree with others it doesn’t belong in a cover letter, and with you(/everyone) that it’d be nice and efficient to make sure everyone’s on the same page before a full-on interview.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      I think the cover letter’s a bit early to say that sort of thing, but you can definitely bring it up in the first phone screen.

    6. HR Exec Popping In*

      You should cover that in a phone screen. They will likely ask your compensation requirements to ensure that you could be a viable candidate. I wouldn’t put it in a cover letter. You want them to look at your resume and start thinking of you as a strong candidate first.

    7. CatCat*

      Sounds like “bring it up in the phone screen” is the only advice. Which doesn’t help me if there aren’t phone screens, which they’re haven’t been with the last 5 organizations I have interviewed with (and where this became a deal breaker at an advanced stage… turns out the top of the range wasn’t even genuinely on the table).

      I’m about to chuck it in the f*ck it bucket, put it in some cover letters anyway, and see what happens.

      1. Panda (she/her)*

        Saw this after my response below. If you really feel it’s important to raise, then I would ask it in your first interview – something like “I wanted to confirm your salary range – the posting indicated a range of $X to $X, is that still the case?” You could also add “just so you’re aware, I would be looking for the top end of that range. Given that, does it make sense to continue talking?”

      2. Kay*

        I would raise it when the interview is scheduled then. As in something like “Just to be transparent, I would be looking for the top range of the listed salary in order to move forward. Considering this, do you think it makes sense to continue with the interview?”.

        As I see it, you have 3 options if there aren’t phone interviews – put it in the cover letter, which I don’t recommend, and possibly turn off a few employers, bring it up when an interview is scheduled knowing that there isn’t much to go on for either side and isn’t ideal, or discuss it in your first interview.

    8. Panda (she/her)*

      I would not add it to a cover letter, that has too much risk of turning them off. I really don’t think it’s worth raising at all – your salary expectations are within their stated range, and your qualifications are above their minimum. You will likely want to negotiate the final offer anyways, and they won’t know you well enough in the initial interviews to know whether they are willing to offer YOU the top range (and you already know they are willing to go that high for the position). I realize that means you potentially spend a lot of time on an application + preparing for interview(s) only to potentially not have the job work out, but that’s a risk you take every time you apply for a job. I think it’s only worth raising if your minimum salary is above their stated range.

    9. LawBee*

      I wouldn’t put it in the cover letter if it’s a job you really want. I think a stronger play would be to sell yourself as worthy of the high salary in your letter and resume by highlighting why you clearly deserve the higher pay, and then after they have contacted you, let them know your salary preferences. Maybe in the mythical phone screen (idk if those happen in your field, but it doesn’t sound like it from your comments). Maybe in the call when they want to schedule your interview. Maybe in the interview. Who knows what the hiring process is.

      Pay ranges exist for a reason, for whatever that reason may be, and if you’re qualified for the higher pay and show it in the cover letter/resume, then you can discuss it at the next step. Putting it in the cover letter may knock you out of the running before the race even starts. But ymmv.

    10. Dragon*

      Are the job’s minimum qualifications in line with the top salary range? If not, I wouldn’t even apply because it’s clear the employer’s trying to get top talent for bottom dollar.

      In my field, anyone offering top or near-top dollar should also require at least five years’ experience.

  19. Anon, But Only On Rotating Schedule*

    Regular going anon for this one since it’s out of my usual range. (In my normal comments here, I try to be more positive.)

    Vent, vent, vent. Due to chronic severe anxiety, I can’t handle social jobs that involve dealing with people in real time, like talking to them in-person or on the phone. Yet I have been stuck in a receptionist job for three months because I needed work and no one wanted to hire me for anything else. I’m in a busy international corporation, working normal office hours. M-F, 8-5 with no lunch or bathroom breaks (I eat snacks off and on at the desk between calls/tasks/guests. Have to arrange with at least four other people to cover phones and door for a simple 5-minute bathroom trip, but we’re so overworked I frequently can’t find the people to do that all day and just “hold it” for the full 9 hours, sometimes 10 if I have to wait till I get home because someone made the work bathrooms nasty). I deal with literally hundreds of people in person and on the phone each day, and my physical and mental health are already taking a big hit. I’m in my 40s and have dealt with a lot of health issues that have worn me down; I can’t just recover with a day or two off and one full night of solid sleep like I could in my 20s!

    I’m already looking to bail. Which I know is a bad look after three months (and I was largely out of work for thirteen years[!] before that due to then-undiagnosed and thus untreated medical ailments), but I simply cannot keep this up for very long. (Plus, as I get older, I have less and less patience for wasting my remaining lifespan in circumstances that are toxic for me.) It’s not a case of just needing to adjust to the work. I’ve been doing (and hating) these reception/admin assistant jobs off and on for thirty years whenever I couldn’t find work I was more suited to. I am just never going to be the type of person who’s mentally and emotionally good at this kind of “social activity” work. What I AM good at is clerical work that involves writing, editing, proofreading, data entry, research, transcribing…the “boring” stuff where you work on your own. I love it.

    I’m trying to find something that’s fully remote (no car at the moment, and have you seen prices for even used vehicles lately?!), preferably where I’m not expected to be on the phone all day. But it is a slog when everything seems to be either a scam or legit-but-still-ripoff sites amounting to pay that’s pennies per hour. Doesn’t help that it’s been so many years since I last job-searched, the ways and places you find jobs have completely changed. (I discovered this job through word-of-mouth from someone I know who already worked at the company.)

    I’m actually an extreme night owl who’s reaaaaally hoping to find night-shift work. I also don’t mind working weekends or multiple jobs because aside from the rare geek convention or family reunion—both of which I’m currently avoiding for obvious pandemic reasons—I have no social life…and prefer it that way, haha. I’m friendly and believe it’s important to be kind and sensitive, but I think we’ve established pretty well that I’m not social. (I’ve never met my best friends IRL or even spoken to them on the phone or voice chat, one of whom I’ve known since the 1990s. My ideal Friday night involves ordering in sushi, playing video games by myself, and reading/writing fanfic and roleplay posts all evening.) I’ve always heard these “nonstandard shift“ jobs are hard to get people to apply for because they want to work days, but now I can’t seem to find many of these jobs, period, unless they’re for positions wildly out of my skillset and qualifications, like night nurses. I keep hearing it’s a job seeker’s market right now, but the kinds of jobs I’m looking for don’t seem to be included in that statement. Though, I could just be looking in the places and in the wrong ways, given I’m out of practice with current job hunting methods.

    Not giving up, but not feeling particularly optimistic right now. It’s more difficult because *I* know I’m a hard worker if I’m in a job that’s the right fit for me (and still work hard, but struggle and make stupid anxiety-triggered mistakes in the “wrong” jobs), but my gap-filled job history on my resume doesn’t reflect that. So grateful for a place to vent here. I hope others are having better luck in their searches!

    1. Candle Knight*

      I have the strangest feeling I know what roleplay posts here means, because that is also my very consuming hobby! I wish you luck—finding those kinds of jobs can be so hard but they’re such a godsend for the folks who would really excel at them, and it sounds like you would! If we are in the same hobby, maybe we’ll cross paths one day.

      1. Candle Knight*

        And also seconding what the person below me said—just because you can hold it doesn’t mean you should!! Nothing about what your workplace is expecting of you right now is reasonable. Escalate that stuff, even if it makes you anxious! I struggle with boundaries and feeling like I can’t advocate for myself at work as well, but you are absolutely worth more than this situation and you deserve not to be horribly uncomfortable.

    2. Green great dragon*

      So you know this, but 10 hours without bathroom breaks is in no way reasonable. Getting out is the right answer, and I’m sorry I can’t help there, but know you are entitled to say to people that you *need* that 5 mins, however busy they are (I bet they’re managing to get to the bathroom) and if they do anything but agree immediately then it rises to something your manager should be getting involved with.

      I really hope that you have colleagues/managers with enough decency to deal if you make it clear you need it.

    3. allieoops*

      I’m sorry that you are going through this.

      One suggestion that might make your workday better is to take your breaks regardless of whether you have coverage or not. They should do this to you, but by actually taking your breaks you put the problem of coverage back on them, where it belongs. I would email your boss and say (but in a prettier way): I’ve not been taking bathroom breaks since you all can’t get your #%@ together and I will start doing so today. I will do zyx (give 15 min notice, turn on voicemail, whatever is reasonable) and then leave for my break.

      This at least will get you bathroom breaks and lunch.

      Please tell me that you have not been marking a lunch break on your timesheet if you don’t get one…

      good luck, this sounds awful.

    4. sushi*

      I’ve worked for fully remote companies for the past few years, and I’ve had the best luck finding those roles on linkedin. search for “health tech or “health tech company” or “health tech startup” – they often have clerical and data roles especially related to medical records if you have any of that experience. not sure about the night shift options though – I’ve never looked for that specifically. you might have to wade through a lot of listings as those are kind of generic terms. also, sushi is my ideal Friday night too!

    5. Anon for this*

      Have you thought about technical writing? My current job is basically that — it’s very solitary, other than when I’m checking with people on drafts, and it requires extreme attention to detail. My particular technical writing right now requires very odd hours (working with overseas clients), but the company provides extreme flexibility with our schedules in order to help us out. It’s also fully remote and we have team members all over the world.

      Technical writing also tends to pay pretty well because no one wants to do it. Lol. Current salary is 115K.

      2. Anon, But Only On Rotating Schedule*

        I don’t know if you’ll see this, but I wanted to give you a direct reply this time to thank you again for your suggestion! I’ve been diving head-first into researching technical writing the past few days and really loving what I’ve learned. I also discovered that my best friend used to do medical technical writing and can give me some pointers (though not any actual job leads, as she left for early retirement long ago).

        Turns out, I actually have a lot of technical writing-adjacent experience due to having done so much writing work in my lifetime. It’s looking like what I know could transition into TW more easily than I’d thought. Just gotta find those leads!

        (Plus, it would be very nice to actually make livable income as an author. I love writing fiction and essays, but the pay is dismal unless you score a film-media adaptation deal. And even then, I know a lot of big-name bestselling authors who still work full-time day jobs because their royalties and adaptation rights sales don’t pay the rent….)

    6. Anon, But Only On Rotating Schedule*

      Hi, everyone! I wasn’t expecting my post to get much attention since it’s just a complaints comment. Since I know we have nesting limits, I’ll compile my replies into one to avoid hitting it.

      @Candle Knight
      We might do similar types of roleplay! My groups approach RP writing like a series of collaborative novels, with the occasional die roll to preserve the kind of surprises you get in tabletop RPG’s. (Most recently: my main OC in a fantasy/science fiction group was *supposed* to be part of a posse infiltrating an enemy fortress…but a bad roll of the dice ended up with them getting captured by another player’s enemy character in a hilarious manner, and they’re now seething in an arena-type prison, failing all escape attempts and awaiting rescue while fighting hungry slug monsters that have Nic Cage’s face for some reason, haha.) We also RP in an MMO we all play that caters to roleplayers, where we try to factor in what happens to our OC’s during dungeon crawls as part of the ongoing story. Though this frequently turns out to just be us dancing in our underwear in town because we got tired of the dungeon bosses repeatedly wiping the floor with us.

      Thank you for the well-wishes! I struggle with my anxiety every shift, but sometimes I just get fed up and do what I want for my own health, consequences be cursed.

      @Green great dragon and @allieoops
      I really appreciate the confirmation that I’m not being unreasonable in just wanting to get to the darn bathroom for a few minutes a day. It’s not even that people just don’t care; it’s that they’re also so overworked that they will get wrapped up in something they can’t get away from, or just forget when I’ve asked for help. (That last DOES annoy me, because my health is no less important than theirs, but I remind myself there’s no malice in it.) I will confess: sometimes, if it looks like no one’s gonna help, I’ll be “naughty.” I’ll turn the phone ringers down to the lowest volume level so hopefully no one can hear them, write up a sign on the front counter that says “Back in [ten minutes from current time]” and just go to the bathroom, screw the phones and guests.

      I did know I got no lunch break since one of the first things I was told on my first day was that I’d need to pack food I could eat without leaving the desk. I made sure I’m hourly, so I’m getting paid for the nine hours a day I’m on shift. The difficulty in getting to the bathroom was a surprise, though. I was not expecting it to be harder than getting a hall pass in grade school! (And that’s kinda what it feels like, honestly, having to hunt down people to “get permission.”)

      My position falls under HR, so they know about the problem, but everything is so broken, overworked, and understaffed around here, no one has the time, energy, or in some cases, the knowledge of how to work out a better system where people’s needs can be filled while also preventing delays because someone’s not at their desk for a few minutes.

      @sushi:
      Thank you so much for the suggestion–I’m still learning what to search for. Hope you get some Friday night sushi the next time you want it!

      @Anon for this:
      I’m definitely going to look into this, now that you bring it up! I’ve thought before it sounded like something I’d be good at. But the actual job descriptions are often vague enough that I wasn’t sure what I’d be getting into/if I qualified at all/if I needed special education for the duties involved before I even applied.

      1. allieoops*

        Fantastic, I am glad you take some breaks and encourage you to take more. If they are that disorganized, and you hate the job anyway, what’s the harm? What are they going to do? Fire you from a job you don’t want for going to the bathroom when they haven’t given you breaks since you started?

        1. WellRed*

          Co-signed. Do what you gotta do. OP are you in the US? Make sure the company isn’t violating labor laws in terms of hours worked as well as overtime.

        2. DJ Abbott*

          Document the situation as much as possible in case they do fire you, you’ll have something to show the unemployment compensation people

          1. Anon, But Only On Rotating Schedule*

            Oh, this is a good suggestion! I do know the company is not a stranger to wrongful termination and discrimination lawsuits.

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      Frankly, if you bailed after three months and someone asked you why in an interview, saying “the work was causing me health problems, and I decided it wasn’t sustainable for me to continue in that position as a result” would be MORE than reasonable.

    9. Bridget*

      Do you live in an area with hotels close by? Night audit might be an option for you. It’s a sort of combo front desk/accounting position, so there would still be some social interaction, but much less than during daytime hours (typically night audit shifts are 11pm-7am I think). Your responsibilities are essentially to “balance the house” each night and make sure everything is turned over for the next day. Depending on the hotel there may be other duties like making coffee and setting out a continental breakfast, light housekeeping like folding towels and stuff, delivering amenities to guests if they request them, etc. It is definitely difficult to fill positions like this so if that sounds at all like something you might like to try, I’d reach out to local hotels to see if they’re hiring for night audit!

    10. Anon, But Only On Rotating Schedule*

      @allieoops:
      “If they are that disorganized, and you hate the job anyway, what’s the harm? What are they going to do? Fire you from a job you don’t want for going to the bathroom when they haven’t given you breaks since you started?”

      I need you to know I “legit LOL’ed IRL” because this is *exactly* the path my thoughts have taken on more than one occasion when talking about this job!

      @WellRed:
      I’m pretty sure I looked this up earlier, and I didn’t qualify for overtime pay. But I am also exhausted and might not be remembering correctly. It’s definitely something I’ll look into again, though!

      @WantonSeedStitch & @Cj:
      It’s good to know that I’m not being dramatic! Too many people just shrug when I talk about work and say, “Life sucks, get used to it.” (Like what I’ve already gone through in my life *didn’t* suck.)

      @Bridget:
      Thanks for the suggestion! It’s something I never would have thought of for myself.

    11. Anon, But Only On Rotating Schedule*

      Thanks again to everyone! I hope I didn’t miss anyone in my replies. I’m a bit rushed all the time these days!

      I just wanted to say how great you all are in your comments. I HAD an actual question in my original post, but I wrote it at home and saved it to a flash drive to post from work (I’m always at work when the open thread pops). Apparently I flash-saved the older version of my post, from before I figured out exactly how to word the question part, so I failed to notice my query didn’t make it into my final post. But your replies were so sharp, they not only showed me the question I was going to ask originally wasn’t the question I *should* be asking, but you also offered up multiple solutions that would be much more helpful for me. Thank you, all!

  20. Use the f=ma, Luke*

    I’m a middle school science teacher, and just curious about exploring other job options. I know teachers are leaving in droves, but where are they going (job wise)? I’ve tried to do some looking, but I’m not sure what search terms to even use. Variations on “education” just get me long lists of open teaching jobs. Any suggestions of paths to pursue, places to look, or search terms to try? Thank you!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve seen many teachers work in the outreach side of Non-Profits. They have classes and seminars to teach groups about their Non-Profit’s cause.

    3. PivotPivot*

      Try looking for instructional design. I am an Instructional Design Specialist and many of my colleagues were teachers, including myself. Good luck.

      1. HR Exec Popping In*

        This is what I came to say. Lots of companies are looking for people with strong instructional design experience.

        1. Onwards and Upwards*

          Interesting. Do you mind me asking what part of the world you’re talking about here? I’m in the UK and wondering if it’s a growing profession here…

          1. HR Exec Popping In*

            I’m US based. Look for jobs in Learning & Development or something similar. They will typically request candidates with instructional design.

    4. Nom*

      Are you interested is working for state or local government? Often there are roles focused on education policy and regulation where having real life experience in the classroom would be an asset. For government jobs, I’d look directly on their jobs pages for posted openings. Usually you can set up a keyword-based email alert.

    5. FOIler*

      You could look into the museum industry in Education/Programming/Interpretation/Volunteer Coordinator jobs, more specifically at science museums/education centres because of your background as a science teacher. One of my friends worked as an Educator at a children’s science museum while he was doing his teaching degree and enjoyed it. I’ve worked Interpretation jobs for a few years and it’s not the best pay (often not full-time either), but if you can be the Programming Coordinator or equivalent, it can be a fulfilling career.

    6. Annabel Lee*

      Hey there, I’m a former teacher, tech specialist, turned freelance tech trainer looking to pivot into something full time. I’m looking for Edtech related positions because of my particular career history, but I started following #teachertransition on LinkedIn and it’s brought a lot of posts in my feed that have been helpful and just brought a lot of information I didn’t know about. It could be a good starting place. A lot of people are looking for Instructional design or customer support related roles in Edtech companies, but there seem to be a lot of “coaches” specifically focused on helping teachers identify and market their transferable skills.

    7. Loulie*

      Depending on when and where you got your degree, some states required a fair amount of graduate study in your discipline to teach in upper grades. With enough graduate hours directly in your subject, you can teach at the college level, which is much different than dealing with middle schoolers though I wouldn’t always call it teaching “adults”. Usually if you got your MS in your science, you will have the minimum hours to teach college. If you got your MS in education, you still might be able to teach at technical or community college level and they tend to be just as desperate for science instructors as K12.
      I’m teaching college level science with my MS right now, I was looking at teaching high school under our state’s emergency certification system but college suits me much better.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      Do you have a science degree? The government is always looking for scientists and experts. Given your background in education, have you considered education policy? The government is also always looking for people with a variety of backgrounds for all kinds of things that you many not have considered. Check out USAJobs, see what they have, set up a profile to alert you to announcements of interest.

      Good luck!

    10. J.B.*

      Our state university had a hiring freeze though most of 2020 and 2021. We have a lot of permanent positions going out there especially in research administration and some course design/canvas.

    11. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      I was a school behavior analyst, I had a temporary contract that didn’t get renewed at the end of the 2019-20 SY and I was totally burnt out anyway so it was a relief. A friend worked for the department of health and told me they were hiring tons of temporary contractors to staff the COVID response. I talked in my interview about my experience with and love for data and somehow ended up the lead epidemiologist for the team responsible for making sure all lab result data from all over the state is being completely and accurately reported to us, and that that data is accurately and completely added to our database. Also, it turns out I’m really good at this work. I hate the pandemic but am really enjoying this new path.

      My manager was a high school math teacher for many years who decided not to return for the 2020-21 school year due to concerns over how her private school employer was handling staff safety concerns. And actually, she heard about the position from one of her former teacher colleagues who is working for the response as a data analyst.

      I am not sure how or if this helps you, but there are still lots of public health openings!

    13. Edu.edu*

      If you are into the arts, a lot of arts nonprofits have educational departments that is NOT in the classroom. There’s tons of Program Management type positions and similar admin roles. If you are managing a program, you probably won’t be in the classroom, but instead are looking to hire Teaching Artists who would be doing the in-class stuff.

      Unfortunately they might not pay as well, though.

    14. Anon for this*

      My company has hired a couple of teachers in the past year. We are a consulting company that does implementations of a specific software as well as the proprietary software add-ons that we develop. We hired them to do the add-on implementations.
      Clearly these ex-teachers (in the sciences) have no experience with software implementations, but we have had really good luck with these hires because we have an extensive, collaborative 90 day onboarding plan that includes lots of shadowing and other various types of training.
      So I think you need to do a wide open search in your geography (or remote) and then really read the job descriptions to start to get an idea of what these jobs actually do. Then you’ll be able to see if it’s something #1 you would like to do and #2 be good at
      Hope this helps!

  21. Antiwork Subreddit*

    There’s a new post on the antiwork subreddit that’s received quite a bit of attention. Someone is sending invoices to companies that have “wasted their time” interviewing them and not hiring them. Thousands of comments in support of this, what makes them think this is okay? They will likely be blacklisted from ever being able to work at that company.

    If you’d like to check it out, google the following: “antiwork subreddit “started sending out invoices to every company that wastes my time in an interview”” and you will find it. It’s the first thing on google search that comes up.

    1. Kaisa (The Librarian)*

      Oh, I saw that! I think that subreddit has a lot of good points, but that post missed the mark. Maybe if there was a specific situation that went along with it (e.g. the letter writer who traveled for an interview that was scheduled by mistake and the company didn’t acknowledge how they were in the wrong), but overall it just seemed overly antagonistic. There is no company will actually pay that and there is a large chance of just becoming known as the jerk who sends invoices after interviews. Do some companies deserve it? Sure. But it will mostly just hurt the interviewee and most people aren’t taking interviews just to “waste people’s time”; they also have work they would rather be doing.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Depends on how the company and the interview went. I’ve been tempted to do the same with the bait-and-switch interviews where I apply for one thing and end up interviewing for a considerably crappier role instead. I’d never want to work with those companies anyway.

      That said, it doesn’t really accomplish anything. And I’ve always felt like if you’re going to waste your time and energy on getting upset, it had better at least have a chance of accomplishing something.

    3. Beka Cooper*

      I saw that too, and just rolled my eyes. I think it’s funny to say it as a joke, but I have a hard time believing someone would actually do it. I agree that there are interview processes that I’ve heard of lately that sound absurd, like seven interviews, and all kinds of homework projects, and then you hear of companies just using the work the candidates did during their interview and they never intended to hire them. I think in one of those situations I’d be tempted, but I also don’t think there’d be any point.

      1. Em from CT*

        I’d suggest maybe skipping the ad hominem attacks?

        (To be clear, I have no skin in the game re: r/antiwork, so I’m not here to either support or oppose the post in question. But this forum is usually pretty good at debating the substance of the issues rather than the character of the posters, and I for one find that really valuable.)

        1. Winter's Gale*

          I’d suggest maybe skipping the holier-than-thou lectures!

          Most people in this forum have learned how to scroll.

    5. SureFine*

      a) I would take anything I see on reddit with a tremendous grain of salt.

      b) If someone actually does this, presumably they are OK with never working for the company, since they think the company mistreated them.

      c) I doubt it would ever change anything.

    6. carrot*

      I was actually going to write a question asking everyone what they thought about that subreddit in general! I feel like they sometimes have good advice relating to improving workplace conditions and offering advice but it also seems to me like a lot of complaining and out of touch ideologies… this seems to be more in that latter category

      1. Doug Judy*

        Yeah it’s really unrealistic in most things. Yes, capitalism is bad and evil. Most people agree there. But expecting things like a nation wide strike or everyone stop paying all their bills is just…more harmful to their objective than they realize. Because most progressives do not think that way and have good realistic ideas. But we all get lumped in with the most extreme of their ideas.

    7. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

      This is one of those esprit d’escallier things where we wish someone (else) would do it.
      For me, I remember a recent news article about a person who would send bogus invoices to Remarkably Large Corporations with poor communications and a high threshhold of what constitutes “budget dust.” If AP pays everything under a certain dollar value, it was amazing to see how much they would get paid.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Oof! That’s a pretty tone deaf thing to do regarding regular interviews.

      Granted, there are some egregious exceptions, such as excessive or expensive interview travel or being expected to do interview “projects” that involve days of work (that basically end up being freelance work), or catering a company party as a employment test, but I like to think those are rare.

      I do wish more employers would acknowledge that the candidate may actually be taking unpaid time off work to be there though, and treat them respectfully so as to make the most of the allotted time. Some positions just have way too many interviews and they’re probably not all necessary!

    10. Purple Cat*

      I haven’t seen that thread although I enjoy the chuckle that subreddit provides.
      It seems like something the LW the other day “it’s illegal to not hire an OBVIOUSLY qualified candidate” would do.

    11. rear mech*

      eh, as someone who processes invoices for several businesses where the managers are all known personalities… I doubt there would be consequences other than us laughing (in sympathy if interviewed with lazy, smarmy manager A, or laughing at them for being doofuses if the interviewed with sensible, kind, on-top-of-it manager B & C, or “lol you might have missed out” if they interviewed with grumpy-but-fair manager D). No chance they would actually get blacklisted unless the invoices contained abusive language or threats. Over the top people can shine in a lot of roles if they are smart and hardworking.

  22. Murphy*

    I’m at a department of 2 dozen in a large university. Our org structure is one director with two ADs. The director left a a while ago but we’re getting ready to schedule interviews. One of the ADs left in November (also getting ready to schedule interviews) and the other just put in his notice. So we have three director level positions empty.

    How much could this scare off a potential director? I’m worried that they will be concerned about why so many high level people are leaving (as they should be, frankly) and I’m not sure there’s a good answer to provide them.

    1. Leilah*

      I honestly think it would scare people off not necessarily because of the exodus, but because they know they will step in and immediately be incredibly short staffed and have to be building departmental leadership from the ground up. That’s a big job.

      1. Afac*

        On the other hand, some new brooms like to sweep clean and choose their own people for the AD jobs. There’s a reason many associate/assistant level directors also leave when a big boss leaves at universities. Sort of how when a new head coach gets hired at a sportsball team, they generally hire an all-new coaching staff.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Write a script of what you will say. Your first paragraph is a good start. Some people may not dig deeper upon hearing just what is in your paragraph.

      I also think write out an answer to this question: “Why would *I* take this job when it seems like everyone is fleeing the place?” Think about why you are still there and some of the reasons your cohorts stay on.

  23. Large Hippo*

    Looking for advice – in 2021 I started a job that I knew immediately was a bad fit. I was lucky enough to have another opportunity to go to. I was there for 2 weeks and made more than $600 and had taxes taken out but haven’t received a W2. They are not responding to my emails asking for it and I have no paystubs cus they never gave them to me, just the direct deposit amounts. I did fill out the required documentation to get paid and have taxes taken out. I don’t know what to do!

    1. Name (Required)*

      Have you tried calling them? I would try that as a last resort and then call the IRS.

      4. Contact the IRS

      If you find yourself deep into February without your W-2, it’s time to get the IRS involved. If your efforts to get a copy from your employer have proved fruitless, call the IRS toll-free at 800-829-1040. During that call you’ll need:

      Your name, address, phone number and Social Security number.

      Your employer’s name, address and phone number.

      The dates you worked for the employer.

      An estimate of your wages and federal income tax withheld last year. Your last pay stub of the tax year should have these amounts.

      With this information, the IRS will contact your workplace about the missing tax document.

      1. Cj*

        When you call this (or any) IRS number, you will no doubt have to punch about 12 different selections on a phone tree. Then you will be on hold for an hour or two. Then you will get a message that says to “due to high call volume we are unable to take your call at this time”, and then you will be hung up on.

        There is a substitute form W2 that you can fill out yourself in order to file your taxes if you don’t get one from your employer, but in order to do that you would need to have your pay stubs to complete it properly.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Pretty sure there’s guidance on the IRS website for exactly this situation. It may even be in FAQ form like “I worked on a job and had taxes withheld but didn’t get a W-2”

    3. Jaid*

      Call the IRS and ask them to send a 0063c letter to the employer for them to send you the W-2.

      You can also look for Form 4852 on IRS.gov and send that with proof of wages and withholding, if available, (such as payroll receipts or pay stubs) to your return, estimating your income and withholding tax as accurately as possible.

    5. Sarra N. Dipity*

      If you’re in a place where you want to file your taxes ASAP, the 1040 does have a provision for entering approximate taxes withheld when you didn’t received a W2. So in conjunction with that and contacting the IRS to have them reach out to the former company, you should probably be ok. You may have to file an amended 1040 once you receive your W2 information.
      [caveat: not a tax professional, just a compulsive answerer who tries to help]

    6. Not So NewReader*

      At one time, I thought companies did not have to send out W-2s for less than $800 (???).

      I think i would try to figure out what the tax is on that amount and use that as a basis for deciding how hard I would pursue this matter. Maybe you can use your paystub/direct deposit stub instead?

      1. Cj*

        They have to send W-2s no matter how small the amount. If you are a 1099 recipient instead of a W-2 employee, they need to send you one if it is $600 or more.

      3. Large Hippo*

        It was also more than $800. As for how hard I want to pursue this matter, I really don’t want to get into trouble with the IRS because a former shady employer didn’t send my W2 and is ignoring my direct request for it! I’m not sure how to proceed when they hold all the power/information as the employer.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Email the Department of Labor, tell the DOL that you don’t want to get in trouble with the IRS because Shady Company did not send you tax info. Let the DOL handle it.

  24. Cranky Chemist*

    I should find out in the next week or two if I’m getting promoted. If not, I think I’m fed up enough to put my foot down and threaten to leave. They screwed themselves over by not hiring someone else earlier, and I’m sick of doing the work of two people while still in an “entry level” role. They will most likely panic and give me what I ask since I’m one of two people at the entire company who knows how to do what I do, and the other person is my manager who is far too busy dealing with higher level stuff to do lab work.

    Anyway, does anyone have a reliable source to show my manager what my salary should be? I’ve looked at some general salary sites that are supposed give salary specific to your location and they say I should be making $10k more than the raise I was going to ask for, so I’m not sure how reliable that info is.

    1. I was told there would be llamas*

      Have you tried looking at open jobs to see what ranges they are showing (assuming they show anything?). I have had some luck with that…I am looking at the remote jobs so some of the companies advertising remote jobs show the salary range due to the Colorado law (other companies seem to just be ignoring that law). I haven’t taken it to my boss yet but I’m coming to the conclusion that myself and one of my direct reports are not being paid market.

    2. Generic Name*

      I wouldn’t threaten to leave, I’d actually leave. And I second the advice to look at job postings in Colorado.

    3. Parenthesis Dude*

      It’s pretty difficult to determine exact pay for positions.

      For example, people doing roughly my job can make anywhere between x and 2x, where your actual pay depends on your skills and experience. Some places do try to lowball you, but other places are willing to pay top dollar to get the best people while other places are willing to settle for good enough. Some roles don’t require someone senior, while other roles cost $50,000 just for the equipment/access before salary.

      Interviewing with many places helps you get an idea of what is out there.

    4. Panda (she/her)*

      Can you look up salaries for similar positions at either your company or similar companies on Glassdoor? I am in a niche industry that has substantially higher wages than most similar job titles (think analyst, consultant, etc.) and find that a general title search doesn’t help much, but looking up those job titles at similar companies gives me a much better idea.
      If you have a network of peers or more senior people in your field, sometimes you can ask them too – but read the room here as not everyone is comfortable talking about salary.

    5. Public Sector Manager*

      I’m in the public sector and in most states, the salary information for public sector jobs is public and on an agency’s website. So if your private sector position has a public sector equivalent, then that’s a first step.

      You will need to do some math though. At my agency, pension, healthcare, PTO, etc., costs the agency 60% of pay. So if new company offers no pension, cruddy healthcare, and the like, then ideally, that private company should be paying close to 160% of what the public sector job is. But if they have great healthcare, great PTO, robust 401(k) matching, maybe even a small pension, then you move closer to what the public sector job pays.

      It won’t be exact, but you can ballpark it because you can focus on public employee jobs in the area you want to work. Looking at salary bands in California and Colorado won’t help you if you’re looking for jobs in Des Moines.

      Good luck to you!

  25. Sunflower*

    Does anyone use a resume with sections? This millennial is wondering if Gen Z is finally taking hold and I need to reformat my resume.
    My resume is formatted that I have my contact info at the very top a short section that goes all the way across horizontally with key skills, technical expertise, etc. Then my experience is listed straight down chronically below.

    My friend is job searching and someone told her the new resumes have colors and sections. I’ve always been told to avoid them like the plague and when I’ve read those, while they may be aesthetically pleasing, they feel very hard to scan quickly.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Your resume sounds like a standard format and I don’t see any reason to change it.

      When I’ve heard about (and used, in the past) different sections, it was mostly for early-career and changing-career reasons. In and just after college, I had my contact info, a skills section, a “relevant work experience” section with internships in my field, and an “other work experience” section with my high school jobs (think retail/camp counselor/restaurant type jobs). The relevant/other sections can also be useful to people who have worked different types of jobs and want to put more relevant but further back chronologically jobs closer to the top of their resume.

      Did your friend’s contact share what sections people where using on their resumes?

    2. Soup of the Day*

      I’m sure part of this depends on your industry, but I used Canva to make my resume – they have a lot of templates, ranging from very colorful to much more simple. Mine is mostly white with some colorful accents and I’ve gotten a lot of compliments on it during interviews. I think it’s helped my resume stand out, but I work in a creative industry so it’s probably more welcome.

      I think you’ve touched on the key point – the colors should never be distracting or make it hard to read. No one will hold it against you if you have a simple, black and white resume, because the content is what’s important. But if you go too far in the other direction and have a resume that’s a mess of colors, you could put some people off, for sure.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m a millennial who has always used sections. My name is at the top with relevant contact info directly beneath. In the smaller, lefthand column I have Capabilities, Volunteer Experience, and Education. Then in the larger, middle column is my actual relevant work history. I’ve mostly relied on type changes rather than color to denote section differences.

    4. Dragonfly7*

      I use your format with sections. Summary highlighting required amounts of education, experience, and skills, Relevant Experience, and Education. Maybe a skills section that focuses on tech skills if appropriate.
      The system my org uses converts all resumes, letters, etc. to pdf, and we print them out in black and white. The colors wouldn’t make a difference for us, and might even make it more difficult to read.

    5. Mercie*

      By sections are you talking about stuff like listing work experience and education separately? I’m Gen Z and was taught that was the standard format (contact info at top, work history listed chronologically, then education) for resumes by Gen X parents.

    6. ecnaseener*

      Are you talking about headings that just break up the page into horizontal sections, or like boxy vertical sections? I think the former make it easier to scan, the latter make it harder.

    7. dresscode*

      I manage the applicant tracking system for several jobs openings right now. Only the most entry-level, least experienced applicants have colorful resumes like you are referencing. The mid-level and higher definitely don’t have that.

      One thing I am seeing more of is 3+ page resumes for longer-careered folks. We are hiring a VP of advancement and many have no less than 2 pages of resume, but usually closer to 3 or 4. More than 3 gets a side-eye from my boss, though. Someone had a 9 page resume!

    8. Important Moi*

      I am hoping someone with HR experience answers this. Is there a change to what a “current” resume looks like?

      Norms change and some of us who practice older norms don’t notice the changes soon enough.

    9. Insert Clever Name Here*

      I was recently on an interview panel and one of the candidates did the boxy, sectioned resume and it was a pain to read (I’m 36, so Oregon Trail Millennial, haha).

      Also, please put your work experience at the top — it’s annoying to scroll past your education, proficiency at Outlook, and volunteer stuff to get to the experience.

    10. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

      Ok, for the record: Gen X writer with graphic design leanings.
      My current resume has headers, but I suppose some would call them sections: Contact, Work History, Education, Skills. And yes, the headers are colored (I even use program icons in the skills section).

    11. HR Exec Popping In*

      Make your resume easy to understand. I wouldn’t recommend a gimmick if it is hard to follow. When I’m hiring I am looking at hundreds of resume so each one only gets a few minutes. If I can’t follow it I am skipping it.

    12. Lady Danbury*

      I’m an elder millennial whose resume has always had sections (experience, education, licences, etc.), with horizontal lines (basic black lines, nothing fancy) to separate the sections. I wouldn’t do any fancy colors (and I believe that Alison has advised against using them) unless that’s standard in your industry.

    13. Esmeralda*

      What everyone else said…
      And–
      Colors: remember that folks may print out your resume and they are very unlikely to print it in color (it’s more expensive). Print it out b/w yourseldf to make sure it looks good.

    14. Sunflower*

      Thanks all! For sections, I was referring to boxes scattered across page (ie the page looks more like a PPT slide). My resume has ‘headings’ to separate Skills, Experience, Education but definitely reads like straight up and down.

      Sounds like traditional resumes haven’t been placed in the same category as ‘just knock on the door and ask if they’re hiring’ just yet :)

      1. A Wall*

        Think of allllll the different crappy “new standard” resume formats you’ve ever heard pitched in your lifetime, and add color blocking right onto that pile in the wastebasket.

      3. Squeakrad*

        That’s a pretty standard word template for resumes, and there are a lot of things wrong with it. First of all it makes your name in much fart larger font than the rest of the résumé which is not a good luck. And if you haven’t worked long enough to want to provide a summary, you have to edit that box out. I think there are formats that have sections that look pretty decent, but the ones I’ve seen actually don’t.

  26. Peachtree*

    Hi y’all! I’m working for a government department in the UK (think: civil service roles, similar to the US federal government) but I really do not enjoy it. It’s been 18 months and I just do not gel with being in a slow-moving bureaucracy, where I have very little impact or responsibilities. I’m still early in my career and my work pattern so far has been relatively consistent (first job 18 months, second 2.5 years, third 3 years) so I’m not too worried about moving. This government job was an attempted career change – I had a really bad experience with a bullying boss, and we lost work due to Covid shutdowns – but it’s good experience that will help me in my old sector. I’m working with two recruiters to look to go back into that career.

    I have two problems at the moment: firstly, I’m working with a specialist recruiter, who was helping me last time when I was leaving Old Job. I’m being put forward for a role in a company that I applied to through the recruiter before getting New Job, and I’m worried that I’ll feel pressured to take it by the recruiter if I’m successful. I feel like I led her on last time by going for the interview then taking the New Job instead, and now wanting to go back to the same company. How do I make sure I don’t commit too soon? I get a lot of anxiety about this! And how do I manage working with two recruiters without playing them off against each other in a way that negatively affects me? Should I be honest that I’m in the running for multiple jobs?

    Secondly, I will be taking a £5-£9k pay cut (or a 10%-18% pay cut) to take a new role. This isn’t entirely unexpected as my partner and I are planning to leave London this year, and I’d lose my London weighting bonus if I did. But mentally how do I overcome my nerves about this? Any advice? If it helps, we have such long notice periods – mine is 3 months so I’ll have a ton of time to save before that happens, and we are moving in together which is saving money too. I think it’s worth it to be back in a career that really excites me, but it feels quite daunting …!

    Any thoughts or encouragement or critiques welcome!

    1. LDN Layabout*

      Work out what your budget is going to be in the new location (if you’re not fully sure of location think of the bigger cities in that area – e.g. Manchester/Liverpool for north west, Bath/Bristol for south west) and look at what you’re getting at that smaller salary vs. your London weighting adjusted one.

      Realistically, you’re still likely to be coming out way ahead on budget unless you’re looking at an expensive commute or luxury accommodation. London weighting is a nice extra but once you hit 40-50k it’s a very much diminishing % of your pay vs. at lower level jobs.

      1. Peachtree*

        Thanks – that is a great suggestion. Will be getting on RightMove today to check out the renting prices!

        And agreed on the London weighting diminishing over time – ours is a % of salary up to a certain salary, which I’m now at. So while I would continue to get pay rises if I stayed in this organisation, over time they would be a smaller increase as my weighting won’t increase too. So getting out of the system now shouldn’t hurt me too much …

    2. ecnaseener*

      You’re not leading anyone on by going on interviews! “That sounds interesting, I’d like to hear more about it” can be your mantra. If it’ll make you feel better, you can mention that you’re also looking into some other jobs separately.

      1. Peachtree*

        Thanks for the reassurance! I struggle with anxiety (is it obvious?!) so comments like this are very soothing :)

    3. Bagpuss*

      Attending an interview is not leafing someone on – remind yourself that interviews are a two way process, and that if you are in a position of having more than one offer you can only pick one, that’s life.
      FWIW, as an employer, if I offer you a job and you turn it down to accept something else, I’m disappointed but it won’t put me off interviewing you or offering you a job if you apply again in future. If you *accept* an offer and then change your mind and go elsewhere, it’s probably not going to rule you out from further consideration (unless you just don’t show up on day one, or something like that) but it may mean I am a bit more cautious in future.

      For recruiters / agencies, they aren’t (normally) ‘heling’ you – they are trying to get you placed so they get paid – and if you don’t accept the offer they set up they probably have other candidates for the same role.

      Regarding the drop in salary – do a budget – as you say, you are looking at things which should reduce your outgoings . If you have a look on the Martin Lewis Money Saving Expert forums, there is lots of good advice – you may find the debt sub-forum particularly useful, there is lots of advise about budgeting / avoiding debt, as well as people looking for help with managing debt – they have a template ‘statement of affairs’ which while originally designed for people who need to think about what they can realistically offer to clear debts, can also be helpful in identifying what you are spending, where you can make savings etc.(and if you are brave enough to post yours, people will make suggestions about where you can save, if you need to)

      Where you plan to move to will also make a big difference. However, I would have thought that merging two households into one ought to allow you to save £5K-£10K – I would guess that you are each paying that in rent in London already.

    4. Storm in a teacup*

      Don’t feel guilty about ‘leading on’ the recruiter. You’re allowed to apply for a job and then decide it’s not for you – it’s a two-way process. It’s also good to remember it’s her job to find candidates and not every one she works with will get an offer or even accept. It’s a standard part of her role.

      As a Londoner I can relate to the pain of losing your London weighting but I think some other big cities also have a weighting. Also if you are moving somewhere outside of the south east the cost of living may well be a lot lower, especially rents. I always felt my old job London weighting was not enough to cover the disparity in living costs.
      Martin Lewis’ website has a good budget planner so it may be useful to work out what a 10-18k reduction would mean in real terms. If you’re dropping a tax band that may also mean your take home pay isn’t as badly affected as you may imagine

    5. Lady Danbury*

      Any good recruiter will expect that candidates are applying on their own and/or working with other recruiters and that you will ultimately make the decision that is right for you. Unless you’ve signed some sort of exclusivity clause, recruiters are retained by the company and therefore have an interest in filling those roles. This may sometimes be counter to your own interest if something else is a better fit for you, but that doesn’t mean that you’ve lead anyone on. At the end of the day, both the interviewer and the interviewee should be evaluating each other to decide if it’s the right match.

  27. Disengaged*

    Anyone got any good scripts to address my bosses micromanagement? A few team members have not been performing but that has resulted in micromanagement of us all. I’m targeting promotion and need examples of working at the higher level but currently not allowed to do basic elements of the job without a thorough discussion and agreement which takes days for what should be a ten second thing. I’ve gone from loving my job and being hungry to progress to struggling to get out of bed. Currently thinking along the lines of “if I was in your shoes I’d probably be feeling like the trust between you and the team had been broken and I’m getting that impression-is there something we can do as a group to help rebuild that and work better moving forwards?”.

    For various reasons that I won’t go into- the timing of this conversation would be very appropriate so this isn’t an “out of the blue” thing to raise, though I doubt they realise the micromanagement they’re enforcing

    1. ecnaseener*

      I would actually not try to speak on behalf of the group — you know there are some in the group who might need micromanaging, so don’t get stuck arguing a losing point.

      Speak for yourself: “I know there have been some problems lately that could’ve been avoided if you were looped in sooner, and I’ve noticed you being a little more hands-on since then. I hope I haven’t done anything to make you lose confidence in my work – I was under the impression that I was working really well independently at XYZ. Would you be comfortable letting me have that independence back?”

      Probably other commenters can improve on that script!

    2. Important Moi*

      Since you’re targeting a promotion:
      If you receive this promotion would you still have to interact with your current boss? That affects any advice anyone could give you. Can you provide that?

    3. Kathenus*

      Agree 100% with ecnaseener. If you represent the group you may also be reinforcing bosses tactics. Boss micromanaging the group to deal with individual performance issues; you representing the group instead of focusing on your specific situation/performance and the micromanagement as it relates to you.

      Can you find specific examples of micromanaging that affect you? Something like “Boss – in the past you relied upon me to meet deadlines and come to you if I had questions about an assignment. Recently you’ve been asking for status reports daily and giving reminders for things I’m already doing (or whatever is a good example). Do you have any concerns with my recent performance that we can address, in case there’s something you’d like me to change? I’d be interested in hearing about any improvements you would like to see from me if needed, and hopefully get back to where you’re comfortable with my working more independently as in the past”. Obviously tweak the wording to your situation.

    4. Nesprin*

      I’d try pulling. You talk about “team” and might be worth refocusing on “I”
      “I’ve noticed that you’ve been very hands on in the past few weeks. Are you worried about how I’m performing? I find usually do better when given clear deadlines and the freedom to get work done and would prefer to just check in in format X”

  28. Internal Schminternal*

    Any tips on writing a cover letter for an internal position? (There are a number of interested and qualified folks who already work here, so they are running it like an external application process to ensure fairness.)

    2. This is My Happy Face*

      I would focus on what skills you’ve developed at current position that you’d be bringing into new position and why you are interested in moving into new position. Think of this as your moment to spell out why you want the job and why you should get it. It’s also a good chance to bring up something that would necessarily show up on your resume, like a behind-the-scenes problem you solved or a big project that you contributed to. Good luck!

  29. Amber Rose*

    I had my second ever employee performance review on the date of my seventh anniversary at this job. It was long, and nerve-wracking, and overall very positive. I got a very small raise, a very large bonus (even with the agonizingly brutal 30% tax rate, omg) and apparently when we’re done shuffling everyone around April/May-ish, I’ll have an office instead of a cube. Which is cool.

    The CEO was in on my review and he said something along the lines of the company is losing out on making the best use of my skills in leadership. Which is… flattering but confusing? I have no problem stepping up into a leadership role if that’s where I’m needed, but I have no idea what that’s supposed to look like. And he’s made it clear multiple times that it’s not really up to him what I do in future, that’s all on my manager. So on the one hand he seems to have some idea of what he wants me to do, but on the other hand he refuses to offer any input at all on what he’s thinking.

    Am I supposed to be proactively suggesting things? But again, I really have no idea what this would look like! I’m not really inherently creative. I’m good at working off existing frameworks and less good at coming up with new ones.

    1. Sarra N. Dipity*

      I’d definitely set up a 1:1 with your current manager to talk about this. Before that, think about where you really want your career to go. Do you want to manage a team? Move up higher as an individual contributor? Cross-train with another department?
      In your meeting, I’d ask about their opinion on what the CEO said (if you got a written review as well as the meeting, check to see if there’s any specific wording in it that supports/contradicts what the CEO said as well – get clarity there!). Share what you’d like your path to be in the company. Tell your manager that you’d like help/support planning what your steps are to get there, and executing those steps. And good luck – it really does help to be on the radar (positively of course) of folks multiple levels above you! Sounds like you’re positioned really well.

  30. Lizy*

    Interviewing questions for a fully-remote position – what do you wish was asked or addressed, either as an interviewee or interviewer? Or what do you think would be good things to ask or address, either as an interviewee or interviewer?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve been on both sides of that table – I would say you want to be sure to ask what they provide (equipment, supplies, reimbursement for internet, etc) and what they require for your workspace – our remote work policy requires wired internet to the work computer, verification of a renters/homeowners insurance policy that will cover the work equipment, a fire extinguisher in the room, and that the employee not be the caregiver for a child under 12 while on the clock – some places require a door and/or lock on the workspace as well. (Most of that, except the insurance policy, falls under the heading of “we don’t actually verify any of this so if we can’t *tell* you’re breaking the rules, you can probably get away with it.”)

      If it’s important to you, you might also want to ask about schedule flexibility – can you work 4a-8a and 4p-8p if that’s what takes your fancy, or do they still want you on an 8 hour day during banker’s hours? Similarly, are they going to expect that since you’re arm’s length away from your work computer, that you’ll be available at all hours and checking email on weekends and such?

    2. Elle Woods*

      I recently interviewed for a fully remote position and one topic that came up was what tech I’d need to do my job (computer, monitors, cords, VPN, etc.) as well as tech support (such as, who do I call if I need tech help?).

      1. Violet*

        I worked a remote position last year and when I couldn’t figure something out on the Mac they were going to send me to the Apple store (I am in a big city) for support.

        Fortunately, a co-worker noticed my comments on Slack and had the solution.

        I now realize that my supervisor’s suggestion may not have been the best tech support. It never occurred to me to ask about this in the interview process, though.

    3. ecnaseener*

      Tech resources in general and phones specifically — are they going to provide a company phone or a software telephone, or are you expected to use your personal phone? (Or does everyone just use teams calls and your role doesn’t involve any external calls?)

    4. Sarra N. Dipity*

      Did they have fully remote positions before 2020?
      Do they have people working in-person currently?
      If so, what’s the approximate ratio for remote/hybrid/in-person?
      Do they have any plans to change to enforced hybrid or in-person at some time?
      How is communication between remote employees? What platform(s)?
      Will you be expected to travel for training? For meeting co-workers for any reason? How often and where to?

    5. Curmudgeon in California*

      Find out their core hours. If the company, or their primary client, is based in one time zone and you live in a very different time zone, find out how that is to be managed. I took a remote job with an East Coast company, so now I’m logging on before 7:30 am and it does not make my night owl soul happy – I struggle to go to bed before midnight, and end up needing naps to patch my sleep.

      Yes, tech and benefits (like a stipend for fast internet) are essential too, but the thing that affects you most is hours.

      Also find out if they have the nasty one bucket of PTO or separate sick time and vacation time. Coming from a university job, the reduction in total PTO by the single bucket method is excruciating. I’m old enough to actually need two weeks of sick time for medical stuff and two weeks of vacation for my sanity. A four hour dentist appointment is not a vacation or even a break, no matter how you call it “PTO”. If you have to work closely with other folks in different time zones, taking time out from the middle of the day is hard to make up even as a WFH person.

      Also, find out if they have any background/clearance stuff going on before you start.

  31. Anonymous Hippo*

    Y’all’ve seen me posting before about the issue at my job, and how I tried several lateral moves to try and get out of some of the problems. Well, the second try fell through, so I gave my notice on Wednesday. A long notice, because I’m just doing my own thing for a while to decompress, so I’ll be here until April 15th.

    Any tips on maintaining motivation and working through this transition period?

    1. ariel*

      I’m good with a list, so I’d make one listing everything I’d like to leave for a predecessor, or things to close out, and maybe also restaurants to try in the area if you’re not going to be often in that area of town again (if you’re working in person). So my time had structure but also some room to deal with things that cropped up. Not sure if that makes sense for your work, but maybe?

        1. Anonymous Hippo*

          Lol, I like the way you think, but the reason I’ve given long notice is to help them out, so taking PTO kind of defeats that, and they will pay it out to me, and having that cash will be helpful in the transition period.

      2. Anonymous Hippo*

        Yeah, I have tons of things to do, it more of a motivation to do them. But I think you are right that the very first thing has to be a list. Then once I have a better idea of what I have to pass on I can parcel out my time.

  33. Hilda*

    Hi commenters! I’m really struggling with job creep and have no idea how to combat it while also trying to address my increasing exhaustion/anxiety and finding a job elsewhere (I suspect I would have to leave my field, which is a bigger hurdle than just finding a different position).

    About 8 years ago, I started my job with pretty well defined parameters, but in the intervening years my team has grown. I supervise projects for three people where it used to be 1, and I’m about to pick up a 4th. Additionally, I’ve had to personally train those folks in the job that we do because they are wonderful but – didn’t have the right training and it somehow never worked out for them to get outside professional development, though there was some talk of it. So I’ve become much more of a supervisor than I was with no compensation (likely no hope there, we are literally never given the opportunity to negotiate our salaries). I’ve had conversations with my boss about prioritizing the work coming to me in the past and it helped some, but they also say things like “It’s all a priority, haha,” “this is job security!” or point out that I’m not the only overworked person in our department which is – not comforting, as you can imagine

    I like my work a lot, but the fast-moving river of a job I signed up for has become Class V rapids, it feels like. Any suggestions for navigating this besides get the eff out?

    1. Sarra N. Dipity*

      You can try to re-negotiate your salary outside of a promotion cycle. Set up a meeting with the folks who have the power to submit a salary change. Come prepared with what your job duties started at (after your training period was over) and what they are now, and what employees in your region are paid for the work you do (Glassdoor is good for this, as is searching job postings in Colorado or the public sector [both are supposed to post either the exact salary ranges or at least what salary tier the position is, which may mean you get to do a little extra research]).

      If they won’t consider a raise at that point, probably time to leave. :(

    2. Panda (she/her)*

      If the “what would you like me to prioritize” conversation hasn’t landed you anywhere, then I would suggest taking the initiative to determine what your boundaries are (how much, if any, OT are you willing to work? When are you unavailable?) then identify what you feel you can get done in that amount of time. Send your manager an email that says something along the lines of “I don’t have time to do everything, so I’ve identified the following as priorities, and here is the list of everything I won’t have time for. Please let me know if you would like me to re-prioritize anything.”
      This puts the ball in their court (if they don’t respond, you proceed as you outlined) but also gives them the opportunity to comment if something really is a higher priority. But then comes the really important step: DON’T GIVE UP ON YOUR BOUNDARIES. If you don’t have time for things, THEY DON’T HAPPEN. You may very well end up in an awkward conversation with your manager when these things truly don’t get done (because it sounds like you’ve just been doing them anyways up until now), but that’s when you point to the email that outlined your plan.
      There is a risk that holding these boundaries results in you eventually losing your job or not getting put up for promotion, or getting other perks…but if the alternative is leaving your job anyways, it might be worth a try first.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        This is really the key to prioritization: you have to be prepared to let things fall through. If your boss says “They’re all priorities,” your answer needs to be, “Then you will need to hire somebody else for some of them, because I do not have enough time to do them all. Right now, I am prioritizing X, Y and Z, which means that P, D and Q are NOT GOING TO GET DONE. If you want me to rearrange that so that P, D or Q gets done, I will need to drop X, Y or Z. Tell me which three to keep on the schedule — but there is only room for three.”

  34. Anonymous Mongoose*

    Anyone have advice for how to write a comment/rebuttal on your annual review?

    I just had my annual review this week, and it was okay but not great. My supervisor forgot to mention some of the projects I worked on and a couple accolades I received. It also heavily focused on criticisms I had never heard before, either under this supervisor or elsewhere, which were surprises to me. I had the opportunity to clarify some of the confusing parts with them, and expressed dismay that I hadn’t heard the constructive feedback earlier so I could have worked on it before my review.

    My overall rating was good, and I got a decent raise to my salary, so it’s not a crisis. But I have the opportunity to respond in a written comment on the review and I would like to do so, but I’ve never done this. I also don’t want my supervisor to feel like I have thrown them under the bus, and I don’t want to come across as defensive or like I let my emotions get in the way of taking feedback.

    Right now, I’m planning to write something similar to “I’m grateful for the feedback, some of this was a surprise and I wish I had known about it before my review, and I’m going to work on the points in the coming year.” Obviously more polished in the wording.

    Any thoughts? Has anyone written one of these, or see one? I’ve never been in this position before.

    1. athiker10*

      I wasn’t quite in this position, but I had to ask for a score to be raised on mine. I stayed very factual and matter of fact. I think language like you used is good. Maybe “I’d like to have [accolades/projects] included in the my review documentation. While I had not heard of the feedback in this review prior to the time, I’m creating a plan to improve on the feedback provided in the coming year”

    2. cubone*

      maybe I’m just bitter and jaded lol, but in most of my experiences I don’t know if those comment sections really hold much value or are used in meaningful ways. Unless your supervisor seems like someone who really desires (and acts on) your feedback for them (in which case I think they might’ve said something like “please let me know in this section ways I can improve”), then I think it’s often just a spot to make people feel like they’ve had a chance to acknowledge the review. That being said, your comment seems pretty innocuous and not passive aggressive to me, so I don’t think there’s any harm. I just don’t know that it will result in your supervisor actually raising their feedback earlier next time (if they haven’t demonstrated that they are interested in getting feedback and approving themselves, or if you’re certain the reviews are used for 360 type evaluations by their manager, which seems unlikely).

      However, it does sound like you acknowledged it directly to your supervisor already, right (“expressed dismay”)? How did they respond? If I’m getting that right and they actually acknowledged it then as a valid point, I’d be tempted to say something like: “I’m grateful for the feedback and I appreciated our discussion about ways to raise it before the review process in the future so I can make ongoing adjustments”. Or something.

    3. Kathenus*

      I’d think of your feedback in two parts – adding accomplishments that weren’t included and acknowledging the constructive feedback while also noting a preference to hear it in real time. Your first draft quote was:

      “I’m grateful for the feedback, some of this was a surprise and I wish I had known about it before my review, and I’m going to work on the points in the coming year.”

      Maybe something like “I’m grateful for the feedback and will take it to heart to continue to work on improving in the coming year. I’d appreciate if we could also have conversations in real-time throughout the year on any topics like this so that I can learn about and address them when they occur, which will help me to build better work habits all year not just at the annual review.”

    4. Purely Allegorical*

      I have done this before. First, I would change your wording slightly to be more direct. Something more like “I would like to note that the areas where we discussed problems and poor performance (or whatever it was) was the first time I had heard that feedback, and is not consistent with the feedback I’ve received to date. I will be sure to set up regular check-in with my manager so that any future issues can be brought to me immediately so that I can work on them.”

      Second, as someone else noted, these comment sections don’t carry much weight. The more important thing is to have this conversation with your manager, verbally. Set up those regular check-ins. And if you don’t trust your manager, get a new one. (I had to.)

    5. Girasol*

      I was unaware that my behavior X was an issue. Now that I know about it I will make an immediate effort to correct it. I am disappointed that my work on project X, where I achieved results Y, was not considered an important part of my contribution this year, but I’ll aim to turn in a better performance in the next year.

    6. Anon for This*

      Where I work we call this the “Suicide Box.” Not career enhancing to use it. Ask for advice from someone else who has been in your office for a long time and can tell you how this would be perceived. I don’t think it would be a problem to write something positive about how you enjoyed the challenges of [highlight some of the projects you worked on that were not included], particularly when x recognized my efforts/success on [project]. But I would avoid taking on your boss’ criticisms as it never seems to come off well. YMMV.

    7. Insert Clever Name Here*

      I would (before commenting) email your supervisor about either a) setting up recurring 1x1s if that’s not something you already have or b) specifically asking that 1x1s include feedback on how you’re doing in the criticized areas. Then in your comment, I’d say:

      “While the feedback on X and Y came as a surprise, I appreciate the opportunity to address them and will be doing (things) and regularly checking on progress in 1x1s as mentioned in my email.

      In addition to the (previously mentioned accomplishment) and (previously mentioned accomplishment), I am particularly proud of some other items that came to mind following our conversation: (unmentioned accomplishments, accolades, other things done well).”

      I wouldn’t think of this box so much as a place to let your boss know what you want, but more of a record of 1) the feedback being a surprise, 2) you taking action on the feedback, and 3) including things that got missed (which you would probably have done even if you weren’t blindsided by feedback!).

      I’m sorry that happened — that’s really frustrating.

    8. Camelid coordinator*

      I am wondering about the part where your supervisor forgot to mention something. Is there a way to avoid that next year? I wonder if you could send them a list of highlights and accomplishments. Where I work including that information on the form is partially the employee’s responsibility.

      1. Clisby*

        That was the case where I worked before retiring. The employee wrote the first draft of the review and then forwarded it to the supervisor. The final review was a combination of input from the employee, supervisor, and any co-workers the supervisor might have contacted (it was common for supervisors to do this.)

      2. Anonymous Mongoose*

        At my workplace, we write our self review first, then submit it, our supervisor reads it and uses that to write our review. I listed all these things in my self review. I’m not sure why they didn’t make it into my supervisors review.

    9. Public Sector Manager*

      I’ve been managing my team since 2010, and to echo some of the advice above, absolutely keep it factual. When I’ve had people write a response in the past, they will say things like “I work really hard and deserve a better rating.” Not only is that entirely subjective, but working hard does not translate to working effectively. So pointing out specifics is step one.

      One downside I noticed is that you said there were negative comments in your review and those weren’t discussed with you before hand. This is usually the sign of a terrible boss or an inexperienced boss. For me, any negative comment that appears in a performance review has definitely been discussed before with the employee. The only advice I have here is to see if they’ve counseled you on the issue but now it’s more specific. So if your boss has counseled you on attention to detail, and the performance review points out errors for Client A that cost your company money, there isn’t going to be a lot of traction arguing that the prior counseling wasn’t specific enough. However, if there was zero counseling or counseling on another issues, then I would point out the negative comment was never discussed with you beforehand.

      Company culture is another issue. Some companies look down on comments and it impacts future raises. Other companies don’t even bother to read them. If your company is the former, then use some caution.

      Finally, I wouldn’t expect a bigger raise out of it. Everyone’s raise has already been calculated in the budget. If changing your ratings would get you a bigger raise and if your department has the money for the raise, a good boss is going to make sure you can get the raise you earned. But the money might not be there either–it might be committed to other employees. So don’t go into it hoping you’ll get a better raise. If you do get a raise, it will be a nice perk.

      1. Anonymous Mongoose*

        Whoa yah, I would not expect this to change my raise. That’s not even factoring into my response. I’m pretty happy with the raise I was given, and I think it’s on the mark with the overall rating I got and the work I did.

      2. Dragon*

        I think surprise negative comments in a review are often because the boss doesn’t want a direct confrontation with the employee. Not because it could turn ugly, but because it could give the employee an opening to mention things s/he doesn’t like about the boss.

        I subtly made it clear to one boss that I wasn’t a pseudo-personal assistant. That may be why she said some things on my review instead of directly to me.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      You have a great start here.

      “I’d like it to be noted that I worked on x, y and z projects and received [awards, public thanks, whatever]”

      “I was disappointed to see A, B and C were noted as problems and this is the first I have heard of it. Going forward I would appreciate being told in the moment rather than waiting for my annual review. I strive to be a good employee and I want my efforts to mean something. I cannot truly meet these goals if I am not told how to change and improve what I am doing.”

      Don’t worry about throwing your boss under the bus. Your boss had absolutely no problem blindsiding you. Present yourself in writing as a reasonable person who is open to improvement where ever necessary. I would definitely do this without a second thought. And I actually have done it. The key here is that a reasonable person wants to know how to improve so they can do their best possible every day. You have done nothing wrong, do not cover for this boss. This boss is not covering for you.

  35. Elle Woods*

    Question about PIPs: How specific should they be?

    Neighbor was recently put on one at work and from the paper copy she showed me, it’s rather vague (ex: better communication, no dates given, no mention of how progress will be evaluated). In listening to she talks about her job–and especially how she talks about her manager–I have no doubt that a PIP is warranted; I’m actually quite surprised she hasn’t been fired. I’ve never been put on PIP before and have been freelancing quite a few years so I’m out of touch with how these things work.

    1. cubone*

      depends on the practices of the organization and the skill level of the manager. I think most AAM readers would probably be in agreement that a PIP needs to be specific for it to be effective. So either their workplace is not so great, and/or…. they’re not really all that invested or hopeful in her making the changes and this is just for show. Sorry to your neighbour.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      If the PIP is vague I wonder if it’s just a formality and they’re planning to fire her.

      But generally speaking yes, PIPs should include SMART goals and have a timeline for re-evaluation.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Sadly, I agree here. I’d prepare yourself Elle for a conversation with your neighbor where they express they’ve recently been let go.

    3. Accountant*

      IME they should be specific. But also IME, it’s irrelevant – everyone I’ve ever known who’s been put on a PIP is fired, no matter how well they do on the goals. If she’s asking for advice, mine would be to cut her losses and just find another job.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Yeah, IME a PIP is just an invitation to find another job, the bus wheels are coming for you. It’s especially true if the goals are vague or frankly impossible. They never seem to be done with the employee in mind, but rather as a paper gathering exercise before termination.

    4. Canicas*

      It should be specific otherwise, how is she going to know what she needs to improve? I was placed on a PIP, I was having a rough time and honestly I am surprised that I wasn’t fired, I really fell off the rails but my manager really wanted me to succeed, I met with her weekly to make sure I was on track, it was hard but after three months I was taken off PIP, she said I was the only one that she has placed on PIP that has ever gotten off it.

  36. Doug Judy*

    I posted last week about leaving a great team and job I like for something else because of my husband’s health issues. I was in the process of interviewing for a job for much higher pay but was nervous about leaving a place I’m happy at for one that might pay more but I’d be miserable.

    I had an interview earlier this week with the person who’d be my manager. It went very well. They were very easy going and down to earth and before I could even ask about work/life balance they said they had no expectations of working more than 40ish hours, meet your deadlines and objectives and then enjoy your life, and to fit your work around your life, not for your life around your work. That combined with monthly company wide mental health days off, it seems like this would be so helpful dealing with my husband’s health. The job itself sounds like a really good fit for me too. It’s something I’m interested in personally and skills wise I have all the things they said were nice to haves. It’s also all the parts of my current job I enjoy, without the parts that I don’t. We even bonded about our bad fit jobs we hated from day one, which were coincidentally in the same industry, which we both left. I have a test case to present Monday as a final interview to a panel. I feel good about it and we’ll see what happens.

    I’m still having some feelings about leaving though. Doing something that only benefits myself and causes pain for others isn’t how I typically behave. I have coworkers that are also dealing some major life changes too and adding increased work to them doesn’t feel great. But in this case I have to do what’s best for me. There’s some opportunities for me at my current job and we’re in the process of being acquired by a much larger company that is expanding. So there could be something else…eventually. But doing some digging, the income potential just isn’t there and time off and other benefits wouldn’t come close to this new job. I’ll be happy to stay if don’t get the job but I’m no longer worried that leaving would be the wrong decision.

    Interview is Monday, husband’s surgery is Wednesday. It’s potentially a life changing week all around.

    1. Not A Manager*

      “Doing something that only benefits myself and causes pain for others isn’t how I typically behave.” This is something that greatly benefits your husband. If he’s ill, then you need to do everything feasible to make your life easier so you can support him.

    2. AnonAnon*

      Sorry to hear about your husband’s health issues.
      You’re right that you have to do what’s best for you. As for “doing something that only benefit you and cause pain for others,” I’m not so sure that’s the most beneficial way to view the situation?

      I gathered from your post that you’re an empathetic, thoughtful, and considerate person, and you’re worried for your coworkers. Perhaps a different way to think about it is your leaving creates an opportunity for other talented people to apply for your vacant position so they can advance in their careers. There are other people out there looking to leave a bad job, and your vacant position is the golden opportunity for them to join this great team. Perhaps the new hire would bring great new ideas to the table, and the team would be strengthened by new blood coming in. The increased workload for your team will only be temporary, and I wouldn’t recommend focusing on that.

      1. Doug Judy*

        This is a good way to frame it. It’s a small but vital team and we have a great leader. There’s no real opportunities for people to join. And while I’m good at my job part of it involves working with software developers/SDLC testing, writing technical requirements. I’m learning but to really excel I need to be better at it, but it’s not my natural talent and I know I’ll never enjoy that part. And our current team works because my coworker is amazing at it but she’s not good at the part of my job I excel at. But maybe they’ll find someone great at both!

    3. Generic Name*

      Don’t light yourself on fire to keep others warm. If you leaving your company will *harm* your coworkers, that’s not a you problem, that’s a management problem.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Best wishes on your upcoming interview, and your husband’s surgery. If it helps frame leaving, think of what you would tell one of your coworkers in the same situation. I bet you would tell them to do what is best for them and their health/life, so apply that perspective to your current situation. If you were my coworker, I would be happy for you if this new position works out for you.

    5. Lady Danbury*

      “Doing something that only benefits myself and causes pain for others isn’t how I typically behave.” This should never be a consideration when deciding whether to stay at a job. As others have mentioned, if you leaving creates that much of an issue for your coworkers, it means that your company has dropped the ball, not you. Sometimes we take the “don’t be selfish” message too far and interpret it as you should be selfless. It’s completely ok to put yourself first sometimes, both personally and professionally. You can’t pour out of an empty vessel. Sending good thoughts for your husband’s health challenges and finding the right role!

      Side note, I love your name. Brooklyn 99 is def a fav!

    6. Molly*

      I think you need to look at the situation differently.
      Leaving a job for a better one is not “causing pain to others”. People leave jobs for a variety of reasons, and the people at the old job have to adjust.How difficult that adjustment is depends greatly on the management at the old job.
      This can be inconvenient, but I would NEVER describe leaving a job as”something that causes pain for my old coworkers “
      But if an old job had bad management and everything that goes with it, typically the negatives are not the fault of the person leaving.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Thoughts and prayers for you and your hubby if you want them.

      I hope you can let us know how things are going for you.

  37. Syl*

    I *really* need some advice on a job interview situation!

    I recently got offered a job I wanted. The offer came in 10K below what I expected. I countered and they raised the salary by 3K. I need to answer whether I want this job or not in the next two days. The salary is about 52K. There is no opportunity for promotions and no bonuses at all. I can’t get a raise until maybe 2024 in this position.

    I have three scheduled second-round interviews for the next two weeks. I also have another offer that is supposed to come in the next couple of days that would be WFH and eliminate my two hours of commuting per day. All of these positions would pay more than the current offer and have opportunities for raises and bonuses.

    I feel like I’m gambling here. I only have ONE offer on the table and it’s not bad, but I think I could do better. 52K is an abysmal salary for what I do. I feel really attracted to the actual work, but I feel like I’m selling myself short by accepting such a sh*t salary.

    Please, I need some advice. I don’t have anyone IRL to talk to about this and it’s making me really anxious!! Thanks!

      1. Syl*

        I currently have a job and it’s toxic so I’m desperate to leave. I’m not starving, I can probably ask for one more day to think things over.

        Even if I have one more day to think things over I’m not sure what I want to do.

    2. Doug Judy*

      Do you need to take a job now? I’d wait if you have a job now or can afford to wait. This doesn’t seem like something you’d like for long

      1. Syl*

        I don’t *need* to take this now, but I’ve been trying to get out of my current position for about 3 months with no success.

        1. Doug Judy*

          3 months may seem like a long time in a toxic job but trust me, you do not want to settle just because you’re wanting to leave now. The one doesn’t seem like a good fit and you have other things in the works. I’d tell them sorry you cannot take the job at that salary and focus on the better opportunities.

        2. ariel*

          I agree with Doug Judy! Short term pain for long term pay off, don’t let these prospective employers take money out of your future.

    3. Fluffy Fish*

      I think you answered your question – 52k is an abysmal salary. You’d be taking a position where you’d be underpaid and have zero mobility.

      Unless there is some kind of circumstance where you financially must have a paycheck right this second, why would you take a job you’ve described that way?

      1. Syl*

        My current job is toxic and I’m trying to leave. I currently make 37K so this would be a good step up. I’m not starving on the street but I’m definitely struggling.

        1. Fluffy Fish*

          So you’d be leaving one toxic job for a job that’s toxic in another way – being underpaid for the work you do will bother you even if its slightly less toxic. Companies that do not pay market salary aren’t generally known for their great work culture either. Taking a job that sucks to get a way from another job that sucks more, is still working a job that sucks.

          1. Syl*

            That makes sense. I think even if I accept and like the work and my coworkers…it’s just going to be very demotivating to know there’s no potential for growth.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I agree – this is only the first offer, and you have a potential better offer coming in a few days with additional interviews that could also lead to something better.

        The salary is a step up from your current role, but you already feel it’s a lowball offer compared to what you’re worth AND there’s no room to change that for another few years minimum. I’m sure it’s tempting but you should definitely see if they’ll give you a week to consider (while you wait on the better potential offer).

        Good luck! I hope the better offer comes quickly!

    4. Sherm*

      If you’re doing fine financially, I’d forget about the current offer where you’d be vastly underpaid. And if you really need to start bringing in money, I’d at least wait until you hear about this other offer that is supposed to come in a couple days. If it indeed arrives within that time, you’re still ahead of the first company’s “deadline.” But if not — you can explain to the second company that you have an offer where they’re waiting for your response, and if there’s anyway they can expedite the process. I’d do my best to keep the second offer from slipping away!

    5. AndersonDarling*

      If the company is lowballing you, then you will be working with other people that were desperate for work and had to accept their own lowball offer. The last “Lowball” company I worked for had a workforce of narcissists, con artists, and people that lied on their resumes. It was a toxic, toxic vat of corruption.
      You may be desperate enough that you have to take the job, and I understand the need, but be ready to continue your search while you are working. This will likely be a pit stop to another job.

    6. Another person again*

      How are the benefits, are they spectacular enough to make up for the low salary? I always consider both as a package when I get an offer.

      I wrestled with this recently myself – in a job I hated, but the lowball offer plus the bad benefits were not enough to make me jump. I kept my scheduled interviews and got a better offer the following week.

      I’d turn this down and keep interviewing unless something else about this job is really great – your skills are obviously in demand.

        1. Another person again*

          It might help if you can attach a dollar amount to how much you value keeping your current insurance and how much you pay for it. And also things like paid leave time and retirement contributions.

          In my case, those things were very valuable to me, so when I got a lower than expected offer that did not include good benefits, I ended up turning it down after doing the math. Even though it technically paid more than the job I was leaving, it evened out when I saw I would be getting half as much paid leave time and paying a much higher cost for health insurance.

          It was hard to turn down that offer but it ended in me getting a better offer including the benefits I wanted. So look at the whole picture when you are comparing your opportunities. You are getting multiple second interviews so you have options!

        2. DinosaurWrangler*

          Ask for details on the health insurance. Even though it’s the same insurance, every company negotiates differently with insurance. So what you pay monthly, cost of copays, etc can be vastly different.
          Also asking for those details might buy you some time while they get back to you with the info

    7. New teacher*

      It sounds like you have options. You may not like your current role, but you’re apparently good enough at it to be attractive enough to 4 potential employers. I don’t think you should take this one. You say the pay is abysmal for the work you do. If everyone is paid like that, isn’t it going to be full of people who couldn’t get better offers? And if everyone else is paid fairly, why are they trying to lowball you?

      If you give up this position and don’t get the others, what’s the worst case scenario? Can you plan for it? For example, promise to leave within 2 months regardless of whether you have a new offer or not? You mention making 37k at your current role, which is low enough that in the midst of this pandemic labour shortage I think you could likely find temporary work to tide you over while you keep looking. On the other hand, you’re looking at a pay increase of something like 40%. Would you be happy to take the 52k job, stay until 2024, and then hunt for a better one? Just because you say yes now doesn’t mean you’re saying yes forever. This job is marginally better than your current one. Let it be a stepping stone to an ever better one a couple years down the line.

      1. Syl*

        “If everyone is paid like that, isn’t it going to be full of people who couldn’t get better offers? And if everyone else is paid fairly, why are they trying to lowball you?”

        This is in academia. I don’t work with anyone else who holds my current title, it is all professors and students.

        “If you give up this position and don’t get the others, what’s the worst case scenario? Can you plan for it? For example, promise to leave within 2 months regardless of whether you have a new offer or not? ”

        I can’t leave my current job without something else lined up. It’s just not financially doable for me. There’s not a lot of temporary work in my field and there are honestly a lot of jobs I just can’t physically do due to a disability.

        “Would you be happy to take the 52k job, stay until 2024, and then hunt for a better one? Just because you say yes now doesn’t mean you’re saying yes forever. ”

        Maybe? It’s hard to say what would make me happy at the moment. I feel like I need at least 60K in my new position to feel like I’ve accomplished something.

        1. New teacher*

          If you weren’t in such a desperate situation with your current job I would say you should wait— this was only the first offer, you have other potential options in the works, 3 months is actually quite short for a job search, and you’re attractive enough that you’re getting multiple interviews and offers, so you would likely get more in the future.

          But if none of these leads pan out and you have to keep searching for another 3-6 months, are you going to be able to hold on at your current job? I get the impulse to want to hit a certain income, but just the fact that you’d be making more money at a presumably better workplace would put you in the right position, financially and emotionally, to move on in a year or 2.

          It’s a tough risk/reward calculation, and unfortunately no one can do the math except you. The only thing I would say is that you can reach out to the company that said an offer is forthcoming and tell them that you got another offer that you have to respond to soon but would prefer to work for them, so would it be possible for them to send you an offer quickly? You might even contact all the companies you’re interviewing and say the same. They may not be willing to expedite the interview and hiring process for you, but they might be!

    8. Anon for No Reason*

      I was in this position a year ago. Similar salaries. I had been underpaid for a long time. The new job also had great benefits. I didn’t see any real red flags, just they didn’t seem as considerate of my time during the interview process and wanted several hours of interviews which I negotiated down. So I thought I was good.

      It did not go well. The benefits *were* great! I got so caught up on my healthcare appointments. But it didn’t make up for the job itself. If I had known, I would have stayed a bit longer at ToxicJob. But honestly? The market is better this year. I only had one offer last year and took it. It was a reasonable decision.

      You have four entities replying to your application materials. You can find a better match. You are worth more and worth room for growth at a new job.

    9. Purely Allegorical*

      Don’t take this first job. It sounds like a poor fit right off the bat, and you’ve already got a couple other interviews/opportunities in the mix. Just because someone offers you a job doesn’t mean you have to take it.

    10. Parenthesis Dude*

      You can always accept the offer, go on the interviews, and then back out of the offer if something comes through. You’ll burn a bridge, but may be worth it.

    11. LawBee*

      Oh man, don’t settle. They’re pressuring you maybe because they have to fill the job that fast but also maybe because they know they’re coming in under range and are hoping you respond exactly the way you are, and they get a panic-acceptance. Hold tight and trust your gut, because it doesn’t sound like you want this job for this pay.

    12. RagingADHD*

      In your position, I would let it go. If they are lowballing that badly, the job will likely still be there if the others fall through, or come open again quickly.

    13. Lady Danbury*

      I would let the potential offer company know that you have another offer on the table and ask if there’s any way that they could accelerate their timeline. They may or may not be able to speed things up, but it doesn’t hurt to ask. Unless you’re completely desperate, I wouldn’t take this job offer. There doesn’t seem to be much of an upside other than it’s not you’re current job.

    14. Syl*

      Just heard back from the other company — they need to wait several weeks to make a hire for some reason.

      I’m in agony and I don’t know what to do here. I have one offer on the table only, and the potential for more. If I apply for jobs really steadily I generally get asked to do an interview 1-3 times/week. So it’s not like there’s ZERO chance I will get another offer.

      I feel like if the answer isn’t HELL YES then I need to reject the offer. But it’s just work, do I need to be excited about it? The type of job I actually *want* to do doesn’t exist in my location.

      Thanks for the advice everyone, I truly appreciate it. I don’t know what to do still but I will figure it out.

  38. healthcare admin*

    currently very resentful about my current position and looking for some perspectives!

    in july i took a temp job at a local hospital group doing an admin task onsite. my projected end date was november. i ended up not actually working on the project i was hired to and instead took over for another temp who was in turn taking over for another temp at a different onsite job at another location. this went on til about october/november, when another temp quit without notice and i took over *her* job (she left because the company was dragging their feet on hiring her permanently and she got fed up and moved states to be with family). i am now primarily doing this job and doing the other two tasks when i have time for them (which is infrequently, and other people can work on one task but only i can do the other, and that other is piling up a ton).

    the temp agency’s period for being hired on permanently without paying a huge fee was six months, which i am fully past now. my onsite boss is really clear that i am a huge rockstar and she wants me at the company permanently, but can only direct me to apply externally for the different positions open at the department, and gave me a strong personal recommendation to the respective managers. i was completely ignored for these positions, no interviews, no rejections, no communication whatsoever.

    my boss said she cannot hire me for my current position because of some restructuring – basically, right now i am part of a sort of factory line type set up, where one person does one task, i do the next, and another person does the third, all building on each other. sometime in the nebulous future they’re moving the task for most locations to be an all-in-one position. only most, as several locations in the hospital group are too small for a dedicated person for this task, and the other two tasks i do still need to be done on a recurring basis. but apparently the higher ups are refusing to hire anyone for anything other than the all-in-one. (the rest of the people on my team, who are moving to all-in-ones, find this UTTERLY RIDICULOUS, but it’s out of their hands.) also, the all-in-one positions are already filled.

    i am. Very Burnt Out. because i’m a temp, i get no actual PTO, just sick time, which i end up using as soon as it accrues because i’m exhausted but can’t actually take any personal days. i also have a freelance art business on the side, where i haven’t had to turn people away, but i have had to delay projects with flexible clients because i just only have so much energy, and i got the capability to make my own wares to sell via a functioning studio back in november but haven’t been able to find the time to actually do that (i’ve just been paying the rent anyway because it’s extremely difficult to find space for that sort of thing).

    i don’t have a timeline for when they’re going to officially eliminate my position. i don’t even know if there is one, because they still need someone for the other two tasks even if everything else is moving to an all-in-one. but it’s absolutely ridiculous to keep me here as a temp indefinitely. i’ve done the math and i have about four months saved up that i could do with absolutely zero additional work/sales (including covering studio rent/supplies for the side stuff).

    advice?? people in similar situations?? i’m soooo tired and i’m kinda to the point of also flouncing like the other temp i took over for. freelance art is not a hugely stable thing in general but i have been getting somewhat consistent work for about a year without doing *any* sort of hustling, and having a studio is also another revenue stream once i can actually utilize it.

    1. healthcare admin*

      oh, additional context is i’m also autistic, and have extreme difficulty with the regular hiring process – cover letters and interviewing, mainly. i targeted temp work at this company because it’s very close to home and temp is easier to get hired for and then i can prove myself without having to speak neurotypical with “achievements” and all that sort of stuff i don’t really understand (and clearly did, as my boss considers me a rockstar).

      1. Sarra N. Dipity*

        If you have a friend who can help with the cover letter portion and/or practice interviews, take advantage of that!! Have the friend help you come up with a list of questions they’re likely to ask, and practice those answers. If you interview remotely, you can even have a word doc or similar in a split screen with your interview to help.

    2. ferrina*

      Apply to other jobs.

      They have already shown that they have no interest in hiring you on permanently when the current arrangement is working just fine for them. You might be able to get the temp agency to move you, but it’s unlikely- remember, you are the product that they are selling to the hospital group.
      Good luck!

      1. calonkat*

        Although it shouldn’t HURT to tell the temp agency you’re interested in job opportunities outside the current employer. I’ve been on the temp agency side of things, and if we were going to lose a reliable temp if we didn’t change the assignment, I’d be on the lookout for a different assignment. Temps may be the product, but if you don’t keep them employed and happy, then you can run out of the product :)

    3. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      I’ve been a temporary contractor for the department of health pandemmy response since June of 2020. I like it and I’m good at it, but it seems the only way for me to become a permanent employee with benefits is to leave the C19 unit and apply for other positions with the department. It sucks. I am kind of paralyzed with anxiety about it. Even though I’ve done extremely well in my current role, I know that because of the nature of this pandemic, there isn’t a comparable position working on other diseases; what if I’m not good at those? going to try REALLY hard to apply for a posted position this weekend that I think i might be good in. I really wish the state would just step up and create some permanent positions – obviously not all of us will be needed long-term, but I’m a team lead of a pretty vital function, and am known across the unit for having a lot of institutional knowledge and problem-solving ability (thank you autistic memory!). But I can’t wait forever for them to create a permanent position.

    4. beach read*

      You mention you don’t get PTO but in my experience temping, even if I didn’t get Paid Time Off, I could still take Un-Paid time off. In my opinion, burn-out can have long lasting negative effects and that isn’t good.
      It sounds like this has become a long-term assignment. Does your Temp Agency not allow you to take time off?
      Is there something in the contract with the Employer that says you can’t take a vacation? Ever?
      At the very least I don’t think it could hurt to ask your Temp Agency. If you have the 4 months savings, why not take some time to get some relaxation and rest? If not a whole week off, what about a long weekend?
      Best of luck to you!

  39. Mim*

    I’m hiring for a fairly entry-level care coordination role at a medical program, and have been really surprised by the resumes I’ve gotten – the number of 3 and 4 page resumes far outnumber the number of 1-page resumes, and one person even submit a 7 page resume! A lot of these include entire pages that are just lists of their skills and proficiency tests they’ve taken via Indeed.

    It doesn’t feel right to just automatically rule out any resume above one page, in part because that would leave me with almost no applicants, but also because I don’t know that that is a good way to gauge their ability to perform well in this job. From an equity lens, I know not everyone has access to good resume coaching. How much of the norms of resume writing should I be expecting people to know?

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      Eh. While the length is annoying as it likely has superfluous info, it’s not directly correlated the the persons job ability so I wouldn’t hold length against them at all.

      Massive typos, spelling and grammar issues? Sure. Poorly written? Sure. But just length would be a non-issue for me.

      1. ferrina*

        Agree. Especially for entry level roles, a 3-4 page resume could just mean that they’ve gotten bad career advice or don’t have access to the same career resources as others might have (who are later in their career or from a different socio-economic class).
        So difference in access to information resources? Let it slide. Poor attention to detail? Not so much.

    2. A&D*

      I’d be curious if these folks are submitting their resume via Indeed. Your settings on the job listing might also recommend that they take certain tests, etc on the site and they could think this is information you’re asking for or they might not know that Indeed is sending all that extra info.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of auto-generated Indeed resumes lately – for better or worse, people may just assume Indeed’s format should be good enough.

    3. t-vex*

      Could you send the resume back and just say you’re not able to evaluate resumes over 2(?) pages and ask them to condense it down to their most relevant experience and resubmit?

    4. Off My Lawn, You Must Get*

      The “It Shall Be One Page” rule is so weird. I had it hammered into me back in high school in the 80s. These days, I can easily fit 20 years of work experience into one page, but that’s only because I’ve had two jobs in 20 years. I can’t imagine what it’s like for people who change jobs more than once a decade.

      But then again, my wife’s CV is easily seven pages, but that’s a CV, not a resume.

    5. Midwestern Scientist*

      By medical program do you mean at a university? For some, academia = CV even if the position wouldn’t call for it

  40. My resume is very dusty*

    Cover letter etiquette: when applying for a job that asks applicants to email a cover letter and resume, do you include the cover letter in the body of the letter or submit it as an attachment?

    1. A&D*

      I always submit as an attachment for ease. And then in the body of the email I just say some version of “Here are my application materials, let me know if you need anything else, thanks for your time and consideration.”

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I would include it as an attachment, they’re likely downloading the file and moving it somewhere.

    3. Lady Danbury*

      Attachment, saved as pdf just in case there are weird formatting issues. I also do this for my resume.

  41. Scoffrio*

    How do folks handle finding time to eat during the day? My org has tons of meetings, often over lunch, which means a lot of days I’m in meetings basically from 11 to 3PM straight. Any suggestions would be welcome.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I do that, & some people just… Ignore it. But I use it as an excuse to just eat anyway with my camera off (all meetings are currently remote).

        1. Anonymous Hippo*

          Sometimes you need to enforce the boundary by rejecting the meeting with a “I have a conflict” note.

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            Sometimes that’s easier said than done. We’re meeting heavy, & those meeting times are either when the higher-ups have time, or when the topic is more critical.

            1. Anonymous Hippo*

              If that’s the case I would then address it directly with management. It’s not sustainable to ask employees to forgo lunch.

            2. AcademiaNut*

              Yeah, you can’t necessarily tell someone who is 1) higher up that you and 2) has a fuller schedule that you that you’re just not going to meet with them.

              Given the 11-3 constraints, I’d have a light lunch at 10:45, and a snack at 3, accompanied by a short walk outside to clear my head.

              When I was an undergrad and had classes from 9-2 every day (9-5 some days) with no break, I just ate quickly during class. The meeting equivalent is turning your camera off and eating something, or, in in person meetings, either eating something not very messy during the meeting, or making arrangements to be a bit late while you have something to eat.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      It sounds like you need to put your lunch time on your calendar, so they are less likely to schedule a meeting over it. I mean, it will still happen, but at least some days you’ll get a lunch. Maybe. Are the meetings in person? If they’re remote, you can eat while you are meeting (turn off the camera and mute?)

    3. Doug Judy*

      Do you work from home? I eat at my desk and turn the camera off and eat during the meeting. Or sometimes I’ll eat a larger breakfast or have lunch earlier if I know I’m booked over a typical lunch time.

      1. Nessun*

        Same here. I’m WFH and I’d be sure to turn the camera off, but I’m not going to skip a meal to attend a meeting. If someone asks, I’d be fine saying “oh, I’m currently at my lunch time so I’m grabbing a bite while we chat” – my group is in various time zones so it’s often SOMEONE’s lunch anyways. Besides, the group understands you need fuel to function! Treat it like a non-issue – OF COURSE you’d eat, everyone has to – and just be respectful.

        In office, I’d probably do something similar. Not a full meal, but if I was in back to back meetings, I’d bring a protein bar or muffin or something, and just start with a “hi, full day of meetings today! just grabbing a bite while we talk, please don’t mind me” and then eat quietly while the meeting continued.

    4. This is My Happy Face*

      Are all of your meetings camera on and interactive? A lot of meetings I’m in are more “I am here to listen and possible contribute if someone needs an answer about my area”, so I feel free to eat during meetings. I’m also at a cameras-off company, which obviously makes a big difference. If eating during the meetings is an absolute no-go, I’d suggest blocking out times on your calendar that can’t be scheduled over so you get at least 3o minutes here or there for food.

    5. Lisa B*

      I’m in the same boat, OFTEN! People, I need my lunch!! Looks like lots of comments on enforcing boundaries, so here’s so tips if that’s NOT something you can do for whatever reason. Make your lunches in advance, just like you would if you were going into the office. You save the prep time that way. I also like having small bite stuff that I can eat quickly between meetings. Egg bites (instant pot for the win), granola bars, lunchmeat/cheese roll-ups, things like that.

    6. Generic Name*

      I mean you have two choices if you want to eat: decline any meetings during when you want to eat, or eat during a meeting. If your employer says you have to have solid meetings AND that you can’t eat during a meeting, that is very important information about your employer. You may have to be firm in enforcing your boundary. I’ve known people who can power through an 8 hour day without eating. I’m not one of those people. You’ll have to say, “I need either meeting free-time to eat food or I will be eating during a meeting”.

    8. I heart Paul Buchman*

      I’m in a job where things often come up and I end up working through lunch. I do three things:
      1) keep something in my bag to eat on the run in between meetings (muesli bar/crackers).
      2) milky tea. It’s normal here to bring a coffee to meetings, I make mine milk heavy and that tides me over.
      3) keep an eye on my calendar and eat at any opportunity. If I’ve got meetings from 11:30-3, I’ll grab something to eat at 11.

    9. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      I’m sorry, but you people who are expected to skip meals just to have meetings better be working on curing cancer or something of similar importance. Otherwise, you have crappy jobs with crappy bosses. It’s amazing how many jobs AREN’T of earth-shattering importance, and how many deadlines are artificial and arbitrary. Don’t let them convince you that it’s normal!

      1. BadCultureFit*

        Eh, if you’re somewhere where your job is dealing with clients, it can’t be helped. The clients set the meetings.

    10. allathian*

      When do you start working? Could you eat a light lunch at 10.30 or 10.45 and then a snack at 3?

      My husband and I are currently WFH, and he’ll eat lunch sometimes as early as 9.30 if he has lots of meetings back to back. We’re both morning people, usually at our desks working by 7.30 at the latest.

  42. A&D*

    My job is a new supporting role for a director position (essentially on the associate director level but I don’t actually have that title). It was a 1.5 person department (1 director, 1 part time paralegal) for the entire two years of the dept’s history. So I have a job description, but a lot of it is fluid and just meant to support the workload of the director. Does anyone have any advice on how to figure out what my goals should be in the position, or how to approach asking for deliverables/accomplishable goals that I can work towards during the year? Or should I just give up on that unless and until I get a bad review? I just hit my 30 days so I’ll be chatting with my boss soon, and I have a formal review coming at the end of my probationary period at the 90 day mark.

    1. Kathenus*

      Could you assess your first month and figure out what your main tasks/roles have been and approximate % of time for each? Then you could talk with your boss about how the job breakdown is so far, see what they think about how your time has been spent so far and any changes/additions they’d recommend? It’ll probably take some time to figure it out but using some metrics on what you’ve been doing might help start the conversation.

    2. DinosaurWrangler*

      Keep a list of everything you do and sort them into categories. Do this for a couple of weeks. Include how much time you spend on each thing. This info will be useful later when to talk with your boss.

  43. Anonymouse*

    What are your thoughts about letting the hiring committee blow off steam about candidates (from an HR perspective)?

    Hiring is rough right now, and in meetings to discuss candidates sometimes someone will make a joke about…some minor thing someone wouldn’t stop repeating or answered a question weird. Nothing physical or personal or protected – behavior stuff.

    One of my colleagues recently got pretty upset about this. In my experience it’s fairly normal, but I’m second guessing my defensiveness. Fwiw if I was a candidate and found out this happened re: my candidacy I would not be bothered. But I don’t know how important that is regardless – a lot of discussions about candidates would probably not be great for them to hear.

    Thoughts?

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      It’s rude as hell. You’re making fun of candidates. People who are likely nervous so not necessarily their peak self. Making fun of people is not blowing off steam. It’s mean.

    2. cubone*

      maybe a little silly, but I always approached being on a hiring committee as a borderline ‘sacred’ practice with a very high ethical and moral standard. Everyone should be on their best behaviour, because this is a task that is so ripe for both implicit and explicit bias, gut reaction judgements, and emotional decision-making that is extremely human, but has potentially devastating consequences.

      Example of what I mean: our panel had narrowed down to 2 candidates for an in-person and from discussions about their skills and performance thus far, we all leaned slightly towards Candidate 2…. but myself and the hiring manager were both very clear in our language that #2 had performed well thus far, NOT that they were “the frontrunner”, the “best candidate” etc. The preference so far was pretty slight and there was still another interview! Our 3rd panel member however said things like “oh right, we have to interview #1 even though it’s a waste of our time” and immediately after interview #1 had finished said “shall we just cancel #2’s and send her the contract, haha?”

      I found all of this super distasteful and rude. We’re talking about real people who had put time and energy into this process and were hoping to find stability at the end of it. So… yeah I would be pretty touchy about people making jokes about the candidates themselves. Even one TERRIBLE interview I was in on a panel, we all just said “yikes” and moved on. Why does the hiring committee need to blow off steam anyways??? Is the hiring process that frustrating to them?

      1. Nesprin*

        Because hiring is in fact incredibly frustrating. Especially if hiring piles on your regularly scheduled work, and especially if hiring process is rules bound (i.e. must interview 3 candidates, even if you know who you want to hire). Some levity is necessary in the face of what in my institution is a rigid and hidebound process.

        1. Kay*

          I know I’m late to this – but that is when you blow off steam by complaining about the process, not resort to unprofessionalism and mean girl territory. Just as you hope your doctor isn’t making fun of you behind your back, you hope anyone in a position of power over you while you are vulnerable handles that responsibility with care. If the interviewers can’t do that, they probably shouldn’t be interviewing.

    3. This is My Happy Face*

      Upset in what way and why? Like they were offended by something specific that was said or because they felt that the committee wasn’t being compassionate enough in general? Or are they concerned that itnerviews should be kept more private?

      I think I agree with you that it’s ok for the committee to make some light hearted jokes about interview slip ups or whatever, as long as that’s all it is. But your colleague might have a point that I’m missing.

    4. Ozzie*

      This seems weird to me… The hiring committee is in a position of power here, is making fun of interviewees really a good use of that time, and potentially influence over one another? Why not instead just discuss the matter at hand and their skills? I try not to be a kill-joy but this is something that has never crossed my mind as a thing to do, let alone an acceptable thing to do.

      Also, if I was a candidate and caught wind that this was happening, I honestly wouldn’t want to work there. I was made fun of enough in school, I don’t need to work in a workplace where it’s seen as acceptable…. especially from the people who would have power over my livelihood.

      1. cubone*

        “The hiring committee is in a position of power ” – this, this, this, one hundred million times.

        It’s just simple power dynamics. It doesn’t matter how light or irrelevant or “not personal” the jokes are, it’s punching down from a bunch of people who are in the position of “up”.

    5. Kathenus*

      I’d lean towards trying to quash it. If it was a one time random thing, more or less innocuous about a small behavior and not about the person directly, I might let it go. I know I’m reading a lot into this but the phrasing in the first sentence makes it sound more widespread/regular of an occurrence. I think that’s setting the wrong example, as others have mentioned, given the power imbalance. I’d also worry that tacit HR approval of that could make it seem like acceptable behavior, and could result in creep where it starts happening more including about existing staff as well.

    6. Scotlibrarian*

      I feel that shows a lack of empathy, which I would find concerning. When I have interviewed, my colleagues and I might comment about a terrible slip up someone made, but we would say something like, ‘interviewee must have been so nervous to claim they were a senior teapot groomer and llama painter, what a shame’. Being interviewed is really uncomfortable, and as interviewers we should understand and sympathise, not mock

    7. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I want you to imagine a scenario. You spent days preparing for a job interview. It was really important to you, and you really, really wanted to do well. When you got to the interview, your mind went blank. You couldn’t think of good answers for any of the questions, you kept repeating yourself, and you know you didn’t make the good impression you wanted to make. On the drive home from the interview, your mind keeps repeating all the things you did wrong and you’re beating yourself up because you really wanted this job and you really messed up.

      Now imagine that when you left that interview feeling awful about yourself and your experience, the people who interviewed you are laughing among themselves about the silly answers you gave to their questions.

      Does that give a little more context to why your colleague was upset?

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Just my two cents, I can run intuitive from time to time. When I encounter a group of people who laugh at others behind their backs, I can kind of sense it. It could be that it changes their behavior and I am picking up on it, also. However, this is a slippery slope and I think I’d rope it in. This is nothing to make a habit of.

  44. It Finally Got Good*

    Any advice on adjusting to a good work environment as a manager?

    Over the course of more than 6 years, through management and things outside my control, I’ve gone from managing staff who spent more time creating drama and undermining me to a staff that is friendly, drama-free, and is so efficient that I’m having to re-calibrate my expectations (for the better). It’s been less than a year of the good environment and I recently realized that some of my behaviors that in the past environment were necessary to ensure work was happening and to reducing drama (like popping out and chatting every hour or so) are now getting in the way of people doing their work.

    I’m struggling to go from always on high alert to trusting my employees. I can intellectually see that this group deserves trust, but I’ve spent so long in “anticipate problems and proactively prevent” mode that I’m having trouble knowing how to adjust my behaviors.

    Any ideas for adjusting my own mindset to the current reality?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Oh I feel this.

      One thing is don’t swing the pendulum too far – to some extent your job is still to anticipate problems and proactively prevent them. What you want to correct for is the *kind* of problems you’ll need to anticipate. It seems like the behavior stuff is fine, so don’t focus on that. Spend some time taking stock of your new reality and what the actual things are that need to be managed. Do your employees have deliverables? How’s the quality? How’s time management? Are there skill gaps that need to be addressed?

      If everything is good, how do you get it to great? Who is ready to start picking up skills that will get them to the next level? How are processes? Where can efficiency be improved? How’s morale? How are people doing given the everything going on? What trainings can you offer?

      Your energy can be refocused, you just need to get your head around the new situation. Hell, if you trust your employees ask them for some input on what they need from management. You’ll get there! It’s definitely a pivot.

      1. It Finally Got Good*

        I think the part about recognizing the new kinds of problems to look out for is key. I hadn’t named the change, so thanks for the phrasing!

        I’m really having to be alert to giving people enough work to do b/c I’m so used to having to drag the bare minimum out of people. I’ve had so many conversations along the lines of, “You’re so efficient that I don’t have a good sense of what’s reasonable to ask you to do. Do you have the space to take on Project X?” I think I’m framing these conversations okay, because I’ve had people say no, I was fine with that, I asked someone else and when they accepted the project, there was no drama between them and the person who turned it down.

        I seriously think we’ve accomplished more in six months than we used to in an entire year. It’s kind of amazing.

    2. Ozzie*

      I’m not a manager so I don’t necessarily have a good way to go about this, but you could make it known/make yourself open to feedback about stuff like this. I also wager that it differs person to person!

      Just giving people a forum to tell you these types of things (whether it be directly or indirectly, for those who may have similar nerves about these types of things also from past experiences), and then adjusting accordingly, will likely go a long way. I’ve had a number of bad managers who absolutely did not welcome feed back, and it is EXHAUSTING to have to put up with them. So being willing to adjust is already amazing!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Why not ask them how you can best help them in their efforts to help their company?

      People who work well together can be absolutely brilliant. Decide to tap that brilliance.

      I’d allow at least a full year for the tapes in your head to start to really quiet down. What you are waiting on is the redundancy of their successes and displays of cooperative spirit. You need to see this over and over before it will settle it. This is pretty normal for most of us humans, so don’t think poorly of yourself. You could as an exercise each day on the way home, make yourself list off several ways they surprised you or pleased you during the day. Force your brain to dwell on these positive things more often.

      You can also make an alternative plan for what you will do instead of “popping up every hour or so”.

  45. Nonprofit Junkie*

    I’m having an employee coaching issue. This employee is in a program director role but struggles with communication. I or others will spend time coaching her on this issue, for instance I sent a bullet point list of concrete steps to improve communication (e-mails about conversations with supporters, instituting a monthly check-in meeting with another department), and then this employee sent an e-mail to several people about a subject that concerns another department and asked to keep the conversation between us. Basically, I’m trying to be as concrete as possible but I’m finding it frustrating that the employee isn’t seeing the bigger picture and I have to spell everything out. How have other people handled this with someone? How do I get an employee to understand the big picture?

      1. Nonprofit Junkie*

        I have. We actually had a large conversation about it the previous week. I’m wondering if I wasn’t direct enough.

        1. Kathenus*

          The good thing, to some extent, is you now have a great example of her not understanding the big picture well enough – with the email. A conversation with her about how this email is an example of things that you just counseled her to improve, and why the email is problematic, to highlight a recent and specific instance where you need change and improvement.

          1. Chauncy Gardener*

            Came here to say this. You have a specific example to show her. You need to walk her through specifically what she should have done differently where and what her thought process should have been. As you go through this, she may share with you her current thought process, and that will help you target where she is going in the wrong direction.
            And do not sugarcoat anything (be professional, obviously ,and not mean). She needs to hear specifics about what concrete things she needs to do differently. Trust me, it is a gift to get that kind of feedback from your manager.

            1. Working Hypothesis*

              This, but also: after you’ve walked her through what she should have done differently with the email, try asking her, “Now can you give me a different example of how to use the same principles we just talked about? What other situations might you find it a good idea to do X or Y?”

              If you want her to see the big picture, you can’t just give her the details and then assume she can extrapolate up. You have to ask her directly to extrapolate up, and then coach her on what she did right or wrong when she does, because she will need to practice that before she gets it down as well as you want her to.

  46. Anon for This*

    May possibly be interviewed to work for a former boss in the next few months, and want to prepare now. I do have some concerns about former boss’s work performance (honestly, when I worked for former boss, they were brilliant in some ways, terrible in others, the only reason I’m willing to even consider interviewing to work with them is I think their issues were caused more by our work environment than by them), and want to have questions prepared ahead of time if this is sprung on me at any point in the next few months.

    Former boss was terrible at improv speaking, could not type grammatically correct emails to save their life, and could not focus on an idea long enough to actually get it rolled out before moving on to the next idea. I want to ask, as politely as possible, how they’re going to ensure this is not going to happen again.

    1. Sarra N. Dipity*

      For the last one, I would ask about the company’s processes on project initiation/completion.

      For the other two… Does the former boss’s current role include a lot of improv speaking? If they’re not great at it, how will that affect your job? Are the emails being sent externally (where clients would get a negative impression of the company) or internally? Do they cause delays because of mis-understandings? If they’re internal-only and are still clear in their meaning, I think that this shouldn’t be a deal-breaker. People have their strengths and weaknesses, and for some people grammar/spelling are challenging (dyslexia, ESL, etc.).

      1. Anon for This*

        Former boss is now heading a department, so there will be lots of communications. In the previous role where they worked with me, it made the team look bad because they would send long winded, unproofread emails to leadership that actually said the opposite of what they meant, in their desperate rush to get The Word out! Granted, they were expected to fill three VERY different roles, all at the same time, so it’s sort of understandable that they’d feel that rushed, but still…. don’t want to work for them again if they don’t/didn’t see that as something that needs to be fixed. Because it does need to be fixed. I’m tired of going WAAAAIIIIIT YOU JUST TOLD HER SHE COULD DO SOMETHING WHEN FIVE MINUTES AGO WE DECIDED SHE COULDN’T.

        Thank you for your suggestions!

    2. Lady Danbury*

      I wouldn’t address it directly with FB. I would ask to speak with current team members and/or the previous people in the role, and then feel out whether current employees have identified those issues. It’s highly likely that the first 2 issues are a boss problem, not an environmental issues. The last one could be either. Unless you get confirmation that they’re not an issue, I would assume that all 3 issues still exist and decide if that’s a dealbreaker for me.

  47. Perspective, please!*

    Can I get a temperature on what constitutes “doing ok” and “below expectations” in a career for a person with a graduate level education at mid-career (mid-30s)? I am at a senior individual contributor level in a field that requires graduate degrees but isn’t known for high pay, and make in the $90s. I seem to be surrounded by people making at 50-100% more than my salary in a HCOL US area, and hearing comments that “any college grad should be making at least $75k” (much more than my spouse makes in higher ed, and more than I made until I had multiple grad degrees a decade after college, but I found one article saying $72k is the average salary for a 2021 grad!).

    Am I really that far below average for a college-educated person at mid-career in a HCOL area, both in terms of not making six figures, and not being at a higher management level? Or am I just looking into weird and unrepresentative bubbles? “Don’t compare yourself” is not the kind of response I’m looking for – I’m competing with other people for expensive in-demand housing and to hire new employees, and if my standards are outdated, I need to be thinking about a career shift. But I’d also welcome responses saying “you’re surrounded by rich people, that’s not normal,” too – that’s how I often feel, I’m just starting to wonder if I’m wrong.

    1. Syl*

      “I am at a senior individual contributor level in a field that requires graduate degrees but isn’t known for high pay, and make in the $90s. ”

      I’m a senior individual contributor and have a STEM BS and MS, I’m almost 40. I make 37K. I’m in academia so that’s pretty normal. People who think any college grad should make $75K are way off, I’ve had multiple jobs and never made that much.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I think those “you should be making X money by Y age!” are mostly just clickbait. They also assume a homogenous white-collar middle-class lifestyle. There’s so many complicating factors in budget and salary expectations, including your personal expenses, debt, if you rent vs own, taxes in the state you live in, and one-person vs two-person incomes.

      I’m also in academia, so 90K sounds pretty good to me. 75K feels… exceedingly optimistic as an average overall, but it might not be in your field.

      You’re surrounded by a certain kind of well-enough-off people.

    3. Fabulous*

      I think us mid-30’s folk are at a high disadvantage because of the time we graduated college. I have a similar educational background and I’m still only in the $50k range, fighting tooth and nail to get into the 70’s with a job change. I was FLOORED a few years ago when I learned that my niece, 8 years younger than me, was making ***literally twice*** my salary at her first or second job out of college, but it sure did light a fire under my butt to fight for my worth. If you’re in the $90s right now, I’d say you’re doing pretty dang good. But again, it’s all about your professional field and salary norms in your geographical location. I’d be doing some hard salary research and putting in for a raise soon.

      1. Perspective, please!*

        Yeah, I am one of those people who could only find part time work during the Great Recession and went to grad school because the stipend and benefits were actually an improvement, so I think when we graduated definitely plays a role. I am also floored hearing about new college grads making so much more than I could have dreamed in my 20s. Thank you for your response, I appreciate it, and I hope that fighting for your worth is paying off!

    4. The New Wanderer*

      That sounds like my HCOL area! Kimmy Schmidt is right, those “average starting salary” articles and comments are clickbait and almost certainly specific to the fields that do pay well. Software developers in HCOL areas generally do exceedingly well, for example, so if you live in a tech-heavy area then you will be surrounded by 20-somethings making six figures. That is definitely not representative of the vast majority of 20- and 30-somethings’ earning power.

      What you’re probably seeing is the Amazon effect (previously Silicon Valley effect 20+ years ago) – outsized pay is driving up housing prices and forcing people with otherwise comfortable salaries to live further and further from their jobs, and making it very hard for other companies to make competitive offers. Not to mention the effect it has on people who really don’t make comfortable salaries like teachers and retail employees. But I think it’s pretty limited to these HCOL tech-heavy areas – you wouldn’t see that kind of salary disparity in medium and low cost of living areas because there’s not one or two major companies massively inflating salaries.

    5. doreen*

      Regarding “but I found one article saying $72k is the average salary for a 2021 grad!” – I found one that said it was average projected salary for 2021 computer science graduates, not all graduates. And it was based on surveys that were returned by 139 employers., so I’m not sure how accurate it is.

      As far as not-high paying fields requiring graduate degrees in HCOL areas – I can only think of two (teaching and social work) , but a salary in the $90s would not be low for either of those in NYC. Are the people you are comparing yourself to in the same field as you ? You can’t really just compare education levels and get a good idea and I don’t think there are any fields that are not known for high pay where the average salary is 50-100% higher than yours. I suspect that for whatever reason, you are surrounded by people in higher paying fields and this has thrown you off.

    6. Loulou*

      If you’re surrounded by people making $200K and you yourself make close to $100K then yes, your perspective is likely skewed! And if you’re hearing that any college grad should make $75K (a pretty absurd statement) and you make more than that, i guess I don’t quite see how you’re falling behind.

      You don’t say if your salary is sufficient for your needs, just that you know people who make more. I’d focus on whether you need more money and not whether you’re “doing okay” relative to other people you know.

      1. Insert Clever Name Here*

        It depends on if the other people are in their same field at a similar level — if I’m making $X but someone in a similar job at a similar company in the same field is making twice that it doesn’t matter if I can afford to live on $X…I’m being underpaid.

        1. Loulou*

          Agreed, and that’s what OP should be focusing on. Could they make more moving to a different company? If so, consider doing that. That’s a much more concrete question, and a more useful one.

      2. Perspective, please!*

        Thanks. I appreciate hearing that these are skewed samples and expectations.

        My salary is mainly an issue in terms of the housing I can afford (as I’m the primary earner for a family with kids, and also have years of insufficient retirement savings to catch up on). I live much further from work, in much less space, and with more maintenance issues than either my LCOL area upbringing or most of my peers. So it makes me feel better to think of them as “high income” and me as “average,” and that my standard of living is something I should just get used to, and worse to think of them as “average” and me as “a failure” who needs to figure out how to do better.

        1. Loulou*

          Well, you’re very likely not average either. You really do earn more than the majority of workers. So do I and I make less than you. But again, I’m not sure why you need to think of yourself as anything relative to your peers or anyone else when it seems your concerns are much more practical than that. Is there another job you could take in your field where you could make more money and afford to live closer to work? If so, consider applying. If you couldn’t make more money doing the job you trained for, then yes, you likely do need to get used to this or consider a career change. But the question is could you, with your skills and experience, do better, not a 35 year old with a degree in general.

    7. Pop*

      I will say I live in a MCOL area, not HCOL, but those numbers seem very high to me. My friends and I (late 20s/early 30s) definitely do not make that much, across a range of fields, although notably I’m not friends with anyone in tech. To me it sounds like you’re surrounded by rich people.

    8. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      I never made more than $30k with a bachelors, finally started making over $50k once I got my masters. now make in the high $70s and feel like that’s pretty good even though i also live in a pretty HCOL area! I’ve always worked in non-profits, human services, education, and now state government so not super high-paying fields but still. I would say yes, you are surrounded by rich people and that’s not normal, in that most Americans make far less than $90k, but I have no idea what market rates might be for your industry.

    9. Nopity Nope*

      The company I worked for brought on new hires from the intern program (i.e., a subset of interns were offered full-time jobs after graduation) at $70K with just a Bachelors. My last involvement was in 2017, and this was the technology department of a major company in a non-technology sector, so we’re talking computer science, data analytics, etc. degrees. Positions were located in NYC, Dallas, Atlanta.

      Additional and unverified: An early-20s friend asked his friend who was hired by an NYC investment bank after undergrad into a financial role, and that starting salary was reportedly $120K. There is just so much variance depending on company, role, etc.

      But for many people, the only way to make substantial salary gains is to change jobs/companies pretty frequently to get increases that surpass an annual raise you get from the current company.

  48. cubone*

    does anyone else hear about Imposter Syndrome and think “that must be hard for those accomplished people doubting themselves…… I, however, am genuinely an imposter and a complete fraud?”

    (for some context, I am sort of in the middle of a career “switch”, but I do have a ton of experience that is very transferable and relevant, just not as formalized or as specific as folks who’ve always been working in New Career. So I feel like I am on a constant seesaw of “I have relevant experience and skills to bring to this” and “I am completely at the bottom of a hill with zero tools or knowledge to climb it” and struggling to find any sense of balance between these).

    1. A&D*

      Ha, yes, every time. I am also on that seesaw. (Context: I’m transitioning into a new field within my industry so am playing a lot of catch up on the background information I need but have a lot of the necessary soft and technical skills). Depending on how honest you felt during your interview process (and how rigorous it was) I constantly remind myself that they hired me for a reason, even if I can’t always see it right away. So short of outright lying about your qualifications in your interview – they had a good sense of what you could offer and what you would need help with. Of course, it also helps that my boss has been very supportive when I’ve suggested I’m suffering from imposter syndrome.

      1. cubone*

        these replies definitely make me feel so much better, thank you <3 I should've specified that I am currently doing some of the things others have mentioned (upskilling, courses, etc.) but not yet in a role in New Career (but for a bunch of personal reasons, have not been able to invest in the job hunt as much yet so it's not a feeling of worry because I'm not getting interviews – yet, at least). But this is still one of those great examples, where I would 100% say the same thing to my friends who feel they are unqualified in a new position. And also, frankly, reminds me that probably if I get one of these jobs, I won't just immediately begin feeling suddenly capable either.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ha yes! The same way I’m like everyone makes mistakes and everyone is doing their best, it’s totally understandable, but my mistakes are inexcusable and I’m just garbage.

      I’m working on it in therapy but the instinct to never offer myself the grace I extend to others is strong!

      1. cubone*

        it’s so strong, it’s borderline hilarious. Like in some ways I laugh at the sheer self-entitledness of it all: “oh that applies to everyone else, but I am just the specialest person who actually is totally faking and this well known psychological concept couldn’t possibly have anything to do with ME.”

        1. Em from CT*

          I was just saying that to myself this weekend! “Em, you KNOW you’d say to your friends that they’re allowed to make mistakes, so why don’t you say that to yourself, too? Do you really think YOU’RE so special you’re not allowed to fuck up?”

    3. Bluesboy*

      I’ve had that. Similar situation, career switch. The grey hairs made people think that I was a higher level and had more experience than in reality, while actually I pretty much had no idea what was going on 90% of the time…

      I also had transferable skills, but at first it was tough. Honestly it stayed hard for a while, because you do stay behind the curve for quite a bit. But the difference between say 0 and 10 years experience in the sector is completely, completely different from the difference between 5 and 15 years experience – stick with it, it gets easier.

      What I suggest:
      – Take courses in your own time to try and learn as much as possible about the sector;
      – Try to create a little ‘speciality’ where you have a safe zone – you still need to learn everything else, but once people recognise that you really know about something specific, you’re bringing added value to the team;
      – Read newspapers/trade journals to try and pick up the generic, background knowledege of the topic to be up-to-date;
      – Your colleagues know that you’re new. As long as they’re decent people, don’t try and hide your lack of knowledge. Use them and learn from them. In exchange, make sure you’re available to help them out whenever they need it. Many people, as long as they have a little spare time, actually like sharing their knowledge. It makes them feel intelligent, helpful and part of the team. Identify these people and be useful to them!

      1. cubone*

        this is SO helpful and kind, thank you <3 saving it on my desktop forever! It's validating because I am doing the courses/sector knowledge bits, but the "specialty" thing is a great idea. And honestly, I'd basically forgotten that people are……… helpful. lol.

  49. Frank Bookman*

    If you’ve worked on a team that handles a high volume of unique requests, what have you taken away from that experience? What does and does not work when you’re constantly pulled between tasks? Are there any tools that are helpful, or anything a manager has done for you that sticks out?

    The last year was a garbage fire for our work (pandemic-related reasons outside of our control). We came through it with a GREAT reputation in our organization, but I know we’re all feeling a bit burned out. I want to use the slow period we’re in now to clarify our roles and to ensure we’re handling things in a way that makes sense. I essentially have free reign to organize the workload however I see fit but this is essentially my first management role and those I’ve asked internally haven’t have much to say.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Not sure if this applies to you, but one of the biggest things that helped my team was getting someone in an air-traffic controller role. Essentially this person was already involved with the set up and management of the requests, but now they flag anything out of the ordinary, high-priority, or rapid response that might be coming our way. This way we’re never surprised at 4:59 with an extremely urgent request they’ve known about for weeks but now we’re scrambling to get someone to stay late to take care of. We also don’t get people insisting they need their project completed urgently, we rearrange our work to accommodate them and then find out there was zero business reason to do so, they were just impatient. There’s no more stressful surprises and we can prioritize things properly, and if we do need to push back on a request, the air-traffic controller knows exactly what to do and has the standing that people listen/accept the change coming from them, rather than whining at us or just pushing even harder.

      Again, not sure if this fits your work at all but having someone able to provide background on requests and give a heads up on upcoming heavier lifts was a huge gamechanger for us!

      1. Frank Bookman*

        Thank you so much, this helps tremendously because it’s exactly in line with what I /thought/ would work. One of the reasons I decided to ask today is that I was worried I’d become single-minded about moving to this approach if there were other alternatives.

        The negative is that, due to the size/current workload on my team, we’ll require an additional headcount to make it a workable option. In the meantime there are changes I can make that will start us in that direction.

    2. Rekha3.14*

      I recommend reading The Phoenix Project. It’s an IT-based book but some of the theory may be applicable; I work with patients and do Telehealth and I could see how to apply some of them to my team.

      Is there any aspect you can automate? Identify your bottleneck(s) and work to resolve those as they’ll have the biggest impact. Like the other poster said, getting an idea of the other departments/the requests and insight into what’s happening to help you prepare. It sounds like you have some ideas – do keep us updated about your solutions!

  50. Now With Extra Macaroni*

    Hi. In 2018, Alison offered this commentary on Slate about toxic workplaces: “But just as with other kinds of damaging relationships, when you’ve tolerated them for so long that it starts to feel normal, it can be hard to see that you need to get out. And if you do suspect that you need to leave, it can be difficult to gear up for a job search if your workplace has destroyed your self-confidence—even though it’s important to do before the problem gets even more entrenched.”

    Unfortunately I’ve reached the point where my self-confidence is destroyed. Every job posting I looked at, I feel underqualified for, because even though I have an engineering degree I don’t feel like I’ve been doing “real engineering” at my job for the past 8 years. Does anyone have any words of advice? Circumstances where you’ve applied anyway, and it turned out okay? I’m struggling to know how much of this is in my head. Thanks.

    1. Jo April*

      I literally applied for a couple of jobs on the grounds that a mediocre white man in my position (I’m a white woman) would ABSOLUTELY apply for it — they were stretch jobs, but not, like, outlandish. Still waiting to hear back, but the worst they can say is no!

      1. calonkat*

        Jo April is right! Look at actually applying and interviewing as training. Maybe you get a job now, maybe you don’t. But actually making the step to apply is the first thing.

        Jobs either get too many applications, or too few, so the odds of them gathering everyone in the company around to laugh at any particular application is REALLY SMALL :)

        Use Alison’s resume advice, and start clicking “submit” on some applications!

        There’s a company out there in need of your skills, even if you haven’t done “real engineering” recently, they are needing someone who can learn THEIR stuff, not come in with knowledge of “this is the most current stuff in the industry”.

    2. Not A Manager*

      “Circumstances where you’ve applied anyway, and it turned out okay?”

      Flip that over. What is a not-okay outcome? The worst thing that could happen is that you don’t wind up working there – and that will be the outcome of every application except one. You’re not going to get blackballed or otherwise penalized just for throwing your hat into the ring.

      My advice is to pick a few obvious “stretch” applications, and go through the motions of making them anyway. It won’t harm you, and it won’t disappoint you because you know they’re a stretch. Once you’ve broken the ice, maybe it will be easier to apply more broadly. Also, the practice of tailoring your materials to the stretch positions might help you see what your actual strengths are.

      1. Sarra N. Dipity*

        And it might turn out that your definition of “stretch” is in actuality “something you’re really qualified for”.

        1. Agnes*

          Also, there can be a weird thing where you’re more competitive for a stretch job than a lateral move. You have “potential” for the stretch job, while you’re probably doing as well as you’re going to at your current level.

    3. MoMac*

      I went through this just under a year ago. I had worked for an agency for 12 years and had a succession of bosses–8 in that time frame. My last two bosses destroyed my confidence and made me feel incompetent. I went from being the gem of the agency to a pariah. I went out on medical leave due to stroke level high blood pressure, after having had low blood pressure all my life. They manufactured a way to fire me while I was on leave unless I resigned. I resigned. I lived off of my retirement for 6 months and then took an easy remote 1099 job using basic skills in my field.

      That turned out to be the best move. My confidence came back almost immediately. And my sense of competence came back within 3 months. I am good at what I do and I have advanced skills. I have since been hired for a W2 part time position where I will be supervising others again. I have also been hired to do a similar 1099 remote position at more than 3 times the hourly rate of my first 1099 position. And all of it pays significantly more than the toxic exempt position I left where I was working 60-80 hrs/wk for many years for crap pay.

      So my advice would be to get a temp/contract position that is not taxing and gives you time to settle into discovering what will work for you in the long run. If I could have shortened my time line, I would have. But things worked out for the best for me and I’m happy about it. And I absolutely know that I am great at my job. I had many interviews and almost as many job offers but I was choosey based on my level of mental health. I wish you well.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      If you’re remotely qualified, apply. Like someone else said, what’s the worst that can happen? Plus you develop your interviewing skills.

      And you might luck out like I did. I got out of the Navy in the height of the Reagan Recession and started applying for anything and everything I was remotely qualified for. Not a lot of people were looking for Naval nuclear plant operators… Applying then was Work compared to now. There were a lot of interviews I didn’t get and some I did that led to nothing. Then I got the guy I refer to as “The Worst Interviewer In the World.” After the get to know you questions, he showed me a map and asked how far apart two manholes were; I had zero idea – having never seen a sewer map before and said so. He asked how deep a manhole was, same answer. Then we spent the rest of the interview shooting the breeze about being in the Navy in Washington, he had been stationed there in WWII. I left, figuring I’d never hear from them again. I was hired and have been in this field now for 40 years and manage my own program now.

      Apply. Then apply somewhere else. PRN.

  51. So Many Questions*

    To anyone who has gone back to school after years in the workforce (i.e. fairly well established in both home and career), would you be willing to share your experiences on how it worked to be a full time student? Did you take out enough in loans to include living expenses (is that even still a thing?) and/or did you work part time or more to make ends meet? If you take an average-full course load, what did that realistically look like for you in terms of hours/week in class + studying? (I’m asking because I think to make the career moves I truly want to make, I will need to get a bachelor’s + law degree + pass the bar. My experience will help me be a non-noob once I get to law school; I’m in a field that relies on an in depth understanding of legal principles and interpreting statutes. I’m just scared about making the leap, because I’ve been in my job 20 years now, so it’s pretty much all I’ve known in my adult life.)

    Separately from that, I’m anticipating our “usual” 1-3% raise this year; it’s what we have been given every year since the great recession. Our company has touted that for the last several years, they’ve eat the increasing costs of our healthcare premiums, resulting in no extra costs to the employee. Considering how much cost of living has increased over the last 1-2 years, how much room does a satisfactory+ employee have to push back and ask for more? Our company has had several successful years in a row, and we do get a bonus based on that later in the year, but we don’t know how much it will be, of course. I’ve never felt inclined to advocate for more at the yearly review phase but this year I pretty much need to in order to be able to keep buying groceries and such.

    Thanks for any guidance on these topics!

    1. River Otter*

      I have done this, and it was easier than I thought it would be and much less weird being the old person than I thought it would be. It helps that I actually love school, so the intellectual stimulation of taking classes was really great. There is always some weird old person in every program, and I was able to remember how when I was younger, we embraced that weird old person and did not care that they were in a different stage of life than we were.
      One thing that was a little bit harder being older was that I really did not have the stamina that I had when I was young in terms of staying up late to complete homework and projects.
      I took out enough loans to cover my living expenses and tuition, BUT, I also had significant savings because I was midcareer. So I actually just put the loans into my checking account and didn’t really think too hard about whether I was using loan money or using money that I already had to pay my living expenses. I don’t think I went over the loan amount, but if I did, I had the money to cover it.
      I encourage you to go for it and enjoy it!

    2. Fabulous*

      I went back to graduate school when I was 28, so pretty established in my career, though it was still just me at home. I ended up choosing a school close to home and moving back in with my parents so I could pay for the program out of pocket and not take out loans. I still worked full-time, though I had flex hours when my classes were during the work day (I was assured the program was all evening classes when I was accepted -_-)

      I think that going to school after working for several years honestly set me up for success. I didn’t feel overworked with the homework, and I felt like everything was a literal breeze. I know a lot of it was probably my program choice, but when I can pass an accounting class with 103% and other younger students are struggling, there’s something to it. My writing, my learning style, and my working style have all had time to evolve so much in the time between when I graduated undergrad and when I went to grad school. It was the first time in my educational career that I ever got a 4.0 GPA, haha.

    3. Sarra N. Dipity*

      I went back to school after my kid was born (I dropped out of college in my first year). Lucky for me, my spouse works in a well-paying industry, so I only had to take out a total of about $10k in loans. I also only had about $10k in my 401k at that point and so I cashed that out as well (you can do so without penalty if it’s paying for your tuition). (I would be super careful about this, though. It made sense for my situation, but it might not for yours)

      I also applied for a ton of scholarships, and started off in community college because it was much cheaper than a full university.

      Can you start part-time school and full-time work in order to still have income? Does your workplace subsidize education (some do!!)? Can you drop to part-time at your current job?

      I’m not sure my college workload/hours numbers would be helpful to you – I got an art degree, which is about as far removed from law as you can go.

    4. J.B.*

      I did this, and graduated May 2020. I worked mostly full time for the first semester, then took a campus job at half time and 1/4 of what I used to make. My husband was working 7 days a week at the time. I didn’t need loans between his income savings and partial scholarships.

      I enjoy the work and what I do now. I make about what I would if I’d stayed at the previous full time job and gained a lot of flexibility. However it was hard to get other employers to consider my application. I was neither entry level nor had as much of the specific experience they were looking for as mid level candidates.

      If paid internships are an option along the way I’d recommend them.

    5. LawBee*

      My question to you is this: Can you find someone else to pay all that tuition? If not, are you willing to take on six figures of debt in your 40s? Are you positive that you will have a job waiting for you in seven years, when you will be (I’m taking a guess here) in your late 40s?

      I’m not saying don’t do it. Just see if you can do it not full-time, or if you need to do that path at all. Find out if you actually need a law degree to get where you want to be, because the time and money investment in getting it later in life is no joke.

      (source: me, who is a second-career attorney and did the full-time law school gig. If I were to do it again, I would have done part-time evening school and kept my nice salary and six weeks vacation and excellent benefits.)

      1. Squeakrad*

        I went back to grad school at 50 planning to live off my spouse’s salary for 2 years. His company shut down suddenly about 6 months in so I had to take loans to complete. He found work but not steadily for a few years.
        I’m still paying loans but hope to have some forgiven due to non profit work since I graduated.

        I don’t know that I would’ve taken out loans for underground. Graduate school was hard enough. I didn’t work my first year but worked vpart time the second. Still wasn’t enough to live on.

        I know teach undergraduate and I will say juggling work and school is a norm for them, especially as we’re still in online learning. But it’s challenging and difficult, and those students who don’t have to work outside of their classes seem much more relaxed and much more attentive.

        I don’t know that I would’ve quit a job and lived off loans for undergrad. For graduate school it made some sense even though I’m still paying them off, as I was able to parlay my MFA to teaching here at University. But if I was looking at three or four years of undergrad +3 years of law school and then having loans to pay for all those years I just don’t think for me it would’ve been worth it. And as I found out, sometimes life happens even when you have plans otherwise.

  52. Promotion of the Ocean*

    I got promoted earlier this week but am unhappy with the title (my current role was elevated as opposed to being promoted into a new or open position). A lot of the process at my employer is done internally through HR because I’m union and they evaluate my job description against other job descriptions at my pay grade. So when I received confirmation of my promotion/raise this week, I found out HR determined the appropriate title for my job description was Teapot Analyst, which is an entry level title in my field (I have ~8 years of experience and was hoping for associate director of teapots).

    Because nobody else does what I do here, I explained that it was an entry level title and asked about changing it. My boss told me that he has no office capital left with HR because he had to use it all to get my promotion pushed through. To be clear, he’s not being a jerk about this, he just can’t get it changed. I don’t know what my exact question is about this but I guess any thoughts/advice? Is this something that’s ok to be irritated about or do I need to let it go (and I’m ok being told this is not something to fume over!)? I’m going to see about being called something else publicly but the title honestly feels a little demeaning/embarrassing.

    And a second part to this is my boss doesn’t want to announce the promotion to my department, which is how he usually handles promotions. He said to just update my email signature with my new title. I guess several people asked for promotions/raises and mine was the only one he was able to successfully get through HR (I don’t know who but I can guess and there are several people who definitely deserve it). I understand his position but I’m really pissed about this. Any thoughts/advice on this? I’m going to go back to him and ask if there’s some way we can do something that hopefully won’t piss off my colleagues but will still feed my ego for lack of a better phrase. And for what it’s worth my boss does value me and my work and my coworkers are great but a few are underpaid.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      If you can’t change the title you can’t change it. As frustrating as that is. Keep bringing it up annually, and keep in mind that something like adding “senior” to same job title may be easier than totally new title. In the meantime if you know you want to job hunt and you’re concerned at the entry level perception on your resume, just make a point to list dates in roles and projects with dates as another way of showing growth in the role. If the promotion is bringing a totally different set of responsibilities you could even list it as a separate section under the same job title, with your pr0jects from it under.

    2. Kathenus*

      On the title part, can you engage the union to advocate for a better title? Having been a manager in a union setting, there is definitely an issue with having political capital for some things – but this sounds like something that the union might be a better venue for – if they’re willing to back or initiate the effort.

    3. Parenthesis Dude*

      It might be worth talking to HR about. I mean, it’s not like it costs them money to change your title. But directors are usually management and therefore not eligible to be union, so I’d expect them to deny your request.

    4. The Dude Abides*

      If you want the higher title, you’re probably gonna have to get it in a different job.

      I was in your shoes in late 2020, but my ask was shot down: CFO claimed that the additional duties I wanted baked into the JD weren’t enough to justify a title change, and I was told that even if they changed the title, I would have to re-apply for my old job.

      I applied for an internal posting at an even higher title, and got it. The unit became a dumpster fire after I left, to where I jumped three titles to come back to the unit I left as a manager, making 60% more than I was making two years ago.

  53. Green Goose*

    Looking for advice on wording.

    Background: I run a specific program in a larger organization that provides services to people in our demographic. My team has been understaffed since I started, and since I started the client base has literally doubled with no increase to staff on my team. Because of this we have to focus the majority of our time on urgent program administration and very little time on program evaluation. We just had a large leadership change and I know that I’m going to have to answer to how we evaluate the effectiveness of our program but I don’t really have a good answer. Everyone has been stretched so thin that we have not really been able to evaluate it in the past five years. I’ve brought these concerns to managers over the years but my staff has never increased so we have not had capacity. What should I say when new people who are much, much higher up than me are asking about the lack of evaluation aspect? I also can’t really throw anyone under the bus because that would not go over well.

    1. Soup of the Day*

      Is the problem that you don’t have enough time to do an evaluation, or that the evaluation would be inaccurate because you don’t have the staff to provide the full extent of your services?

      Either way, I think you can state the problem without naming any names. “We’ve been allocating our resources to program administration instead.” If they ask why, you can be honest that it’s because your client base doubled and your staff has no time. That’s not blaming anyone, it’s the truth.

    2. This is My Happy Face*

      Thanks for bringing that up, Jim; I would really like to talk to you about that. We’ve struggled to develope an evaluation process for our program. With a lot of our team’s resources going to *insert actual work here* and staff already at capacity, we haven’t had the time or personnel to spend on evaluating our effectiveness. I really think that is crucial to improving *insert work here* and would like to discuss some possible solutions with you.

    3. Kathenus*

      Some great advice already. To add to it, if you have the opportunity to bring it up proactively versus waiting for them to address it. Something like “in the last x years our client to staff ratio has increased from y to z clients per staff member on average. I’m proud that we’ve still been able to provide great support to our clients in this challenging time. To make our efforts even more effective, we’d love to be able to evaluate the effectiveness of our programs to target ways to improve, but have no resources to do that right now. Could we discuss options for bringing on additional resources to achieve these goals going forward?”

  54. Candle Knight*

    Looking for any folks in the illustration field, freelance or otherwise! I’m currently a FT in-house graphic designer, and it’s become very very clear to me that while I can certainly do design work as a day job, the thing I really would like to do is illustration. It’s tough for me to see a career path that isn’t “be an amazing rockstar illustrator in high demand.” I’m certainly good, but like all illustrators, I could be better.

    Is there anyone out there doing this? What is the secret? … is it passive income and being willing to hustle, because that’s what all the freelance advice out there says.

    1. Margaery Tyrell*

      Hi there! I’m a fellow FT in-house graphic designer. Unfortunately I’m not at ALL an illustrator but I have a couple friends who do, and this is what I’ve seen:
      * Share work (including sketches/in progress) on a dedicated art channel (usually instagram)
      * Run process live streams on Twitch/YouTube
      * Post on other socials when these^ are happening or when you’re on the hunt for commissions
      * Reach out to your network to see if they have any illustration needs! You might be surprised who bites back.

      In case it’s helpful, you can check out my friends’ profiles on Instagram: @penxink, @montaug

    2. Nela*

      I used to freelance as an illustrator & hang out with a lot of them (not anymore because I realized that I hate drawing for others and I’d prefer to stay in design). But I know of some things that work to break in.

      I think the biggest one is to create a self-intiated project showcasing your style. By project I mean an illustrated cookbook, or illustrations for a novel that’s in the public domain, or one of those “thing a day” challenges… These types of projects tend to get a lot more attention that one-off artworks.

      Once you start working on that and publishing your pieces, start following and interacting with art directors and other illustrators in your chosen niche. Lots of art directors use Instagram and Twitter. Yes, Twitter. I know it’s not a social network most folks associate with art, but it’s a lot better than Instagram in many ways – it’s easier to engage in conversations, promote stuff you like, and share links.

      Depending on the niche you want to work in, pitching your portfolio directly to potential clients may be one way to get work. (It’s pretty typical in book, magazine, and game publishing.)
      Some may require you to do test work, and not everyone pays for tests.

      1. Nela*

        In my experience, an entry to medium level illustrator is paid less per hour of work than a graphic design of the same skill level, it’s just not a super well paid gig in general. So yeah, long hours are the norm, and depending on the niche short deadlines are likely, too. Those that I know who are really killing it have a few repeat clients that they’ve worked with for years (book and game publishing).

        If by passive income you mean licensing deals, that is certainly an avenue, if your style works well for that.
        Selling prints through POD sites or digital stuff on your own requires a ton of marketing effort, and sales are not great unless you’re a superstar.

    3. Broken Hearted Illustrator*

      Not to be a downer, but I’ll give my honest experience—I started my career as a full-time freelance illustrator, coming out of a private art school program. It was honestly hell, and I moved into graphic design after about 3 years.

      I made $17k/yr my first year as an illustrator and $55k my first year as a designer.

      Illustration is fun, and the industry has a certain allure, but it’s a severely underpaid, highly demanding career. I have friends who have been illustrators for a decade and can’t afford to buy homes in medium cost of living areas. They all need a second source of income.

      When I started, I worked every day, every weekend, to ultimately make less than $20k a year. I burned out entirely after about 4. I haven’t illustrated even for fun in like 7 years, and I regret what I lost almost every day.

      If you really, really want to make it work, it is 100% hustle. Unless you get lucky, illustration is 95% finding your own work. Some people are great at the hustle, but you have to LOVE the hustle, and you have to be okay with making far less than you would as a designer. It’s just reality. It’s a very informal industry with very little standardization or transparency around pay rates, and you’re competing constantly with people who charge nothing for valuable work.

      1. Nela*

        If you see this, I’m so sorry you’ve been burned out so badly you’re not able to draw for fun :(
        I’ve certainly been there, but it didn’t last so long (7 years!) and I cherish my personal art time so much now.

        The illustration industry appears like a dream career on the outside, but it’s criminally underpaid compared to other creative fields.

  55. SadHustle*

    I’ve been hard at the job search since November. 60+ applications sent, got to the second interview stage at about 5 places, first interview at more places, rejected every time. I already do all the self-care “eat right, exercise, yoga, bubble bath” crap and am seeing a therapist for grief counseling (I lost two grandparents last year.) My peers from my current & related professions all say my resume and cover letter look good. I’m just so tired. My current job sucks. What else can I do to not let this job search crush me??

    1. Nethwen*

      That’s really tough. I’m sorry you’re going through this. In my last long, frustrating job search, I just had to live through through process and recover on the other side. With something that so deeply impacts your life, it may be a good topic for a conversation with your counselor.

    2. 1qtkat*

      I’m sorry, that sounds really tough. I went through a similar state when I was underemployed and desperately looking to get out for 3 years. While there were moments of despair and failure, I also tried to fill my time with hobbies and activities that I wouldn’t have time for if I was working. For example, I spent a lot of time exploring the local parks in my area during the week with my dog, learning a new language, and baking.

      And if people keep asking about your job search, just state outright that it’s a tough topic you don’t want to talk about and then change the topic.

    3. Juror No. 7*

      I am sorry for your losses and best of luck with the continued job search.

      “What else can I do to not let this job search crush me??”

      Be kind to yourself, practice not taking rejection personally, and keep going. Recognize where things have gone right, even if it hasn’t resulted in employment. (1 in 10 response rate for applications is good, possibly really good.)

      Good luck.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Do you need a short break from searching? That’s a long time to be hard at anything, on top of your current job.

      Sometimes you just need a week off to rest and reset, so you can come back fresher.

  56. Cochrane*

    Interesting topic cropped up at work recently during one of our open chats (we have all been remote since 2020). Our company keeps an office of software engineers and QA testers in the Bay Area and like many companies, have adjusted salaries downward if you’ve taken advantage of the pandemic to move to a cheaper area for telework. One of these engineers moved to Montana and got a mail forwarding service with a Bay Area address, think “123 Highbrow Street #10”, which is a mailbox number at this facility, not an apartment number. I don’t think anyone in HR has caught on yet and we’re rooting for him for having found a way around the company kneecapping pay by your location, regardless of your contribution.

    Would HR have a grounds for disciplinary action since he does have a mailing address, although couldn’t physically be there unless he was the size of a mouse? None of us are snitching, but it’s a gutsy move.

    1. Ginger Baker*

      I would think this would be an issue due to the tax implications of using the wrong home address for the employee? Like…doesn’t the company need to take out taxes for the correct state and also possibly this establishes a nexus for the company in the state that they otherwise did not have (if no one else is living in Montana) which creates additional legal obligations including possibly HR requirements?

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      This is pretty funny, but I don’t think it’s really a good idea. In terms of discipline, lying to your employer about something with work implications is pretty much always grounds for discipline. There could be tax / legal implications for the company and for him of not revealing where he lives. For example, the company may owe Montana taxes they don’t currently know they should be paying. Company health insurance plans may not cover doctors in Montana, and doctors may be licensed to practice only in their own state so he may not be able to access even telehealth unless he continues lying (I have been asked for my location at the beginning of telehealth appointments). These are just a few examples that come to mind (assuming this guy is an employee and not a contractor).

    3. Reba*

      Yes, of course, he is lying. And it’s kind of a big-deal lie, not just for the salary but because of legal and tax consequences for the company, I would think they would take it very seriously. Also California is a special beast in this regard.

      I feel like this will also cause problems with state taxes for the employee?

    4. Mockingjay*

      There was a thread a few months back on this issue. Most states require a business license for the state in which the remote employee resides. It creates “presence” that is taxable, triggers leave and OT obligations, etc. It is a BIG deal for a company.

      In my own experience, last summer I moved states and requested permanent remote work. I was fortunate that my company already had a business license in new state and agreed, but I had to submit new tax withholding forms, change of physical address, and other info. HR tracked the switch closely.

      TL;DR: Yes, HR has grounds for action, likely termination. His “gusty move” is creating a lot of liability for the company.

    5. Kathenus*

      I actually do not think this is a good thing to be rooting for. One potential outcome of this would be losing the flexibility for staff to move to other areas because of chance for fraud, from this one person’s deception. Or no longer offering work commensurate with COL guidelines, meaning that people in HCOL areas might be negatively impacted. We’ve all seen companies react to one instance of something by penalizing everyone with new restrictive policies. I personally see it as deceptive and fraud, and if it was my employee I would seriously consider disciplinary action.

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      Well, I think it’s stupid for companies to lower someone’s salary based on there they live. That actually really pisses me off. I get if a company doesn’t want to have to register and pay taxes in a certain state, that’s a business decision and totally understandable. But if I’m looking to hire a software developer with x, y and z skills, I’m going to pay the ‘national’ market rate for them whether they live in Wyoming or Massachusetts

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        Sorry, I know that was on a tangent.
        I do think this employee may be opening himself and the company up for some issues if the company isn’t registered in the state in which he actually lives. And also, he’s not paying taxes to the state that he’s living in, so it’s not fair to that state and could be opening himself up to issue there as well

      2. Cochrane*

        That’s where I fall on this issue as well. HR must have spent good money to hire a management consulting firm to essentially make a list of US regions with a three-tiered salary band system, run a name & address report from the HR platform, and tell people how it’s gonna be. Take your paycut or hit the road. After a profitable year despite the pandemic, that’s a slap in the face for a shady consulting firm to make a buck at worker expense. No wonder morale is in the gutter.

        I hope this guy is covering his tracks to look like he’s logged in from the Bay Area, lest this firm come back to HR pitch a new “value add” that would run server logs against the name & address data to pick off “cheaters”.

    7. HBJ*

      I can see this causing serious problems as Montana is the only state not to have at will employment. Won’t this company have to comply with that even though they don’t know he’s living there?

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Yeah, this is a variety of fraud. He’s getting paid the Bay Area rate although he doesn’t live there. And he won’t be able to say it wasn’t intentional, because he’s deliberately maintaining a mailing address for the higher rate. “Disciplinary action” is a lot of syllables that might stand for “fired” and “court-ordered claw-back of salary adjustment, plus interest.”

      I’d be curious to know how hireable he’d be after doing this. Even someone with in-demand skills and connections might find it hard to get a new job after they were fired for deceiving their previous company.

    9. Assorted Ability*

      Another assumption is if he moved to Montana permanently or not. As in, did he change is drivers license and license plates to Montana. I think he can live there a six months before becoming a permanent resident. The pay difference may make it possible for him to fly back to CA stay for a month or two and then go back.

      Ultimately, yes, HR would see this as lying, but being based in a state and traveling to other states, even for months at a time, owning vacation homes in other states is all allowed. I would say it boils down to declared residency.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        It doesn’t. You need to be paid for where the work is done. States have different thresholds for how long that is. It doesn’t matter which is his official residence and which is his vacation home, what matters is how much time he spends working in each place.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Clarifying: the issue is the taxes. They could theoretically let him work from both places in some sort of split, but they need to handle the taxes accordingly.

  57. hmmm*

    If a company had multiple openings and you apply to the position that best suits you, (I’m curious) do you think hiring managers consider you for other positions. I’m thinking more like manager A doesn’t think you would be a great fit for his department but gives a heads up to manager B about your resume

    1. Fabulous*

      You probably need to submit for each role separately. If it’s a larger company, there are probably different hiring managers and multiple HR recruiters who may not talk to each other about the candidates they see.

    2. PostalMixup*

      That definitely happens in my company. Department A got an applicant that wasn’t quite what they were looking for, so they forwarded the application to our department, where the fit was better. A former coworker applied for a position in Department B, which already had an internal candidate in mind, and they forwarded her application to Department C, who hired her.

    3. Doug Judy*

      Yes, a good company will do that. That’s how I got my current job. I applied for one but the recruiter called and said I’d be a better fit for something else they had. On paper I had zero interest in that position but they were known as a great company to work for. The recruiter was right. I really am better suited for what I’m doing now. I maybe leaving that job soon for personal reasons (I have a post above) but I am very grateful to the recruiter because he put me on the path I am now.

    4. River Otter*

      Somethings similar has happened to me! I had submitted my résumé to positions at a company, and an internal HR person reached out and asked me to apply to a different open position. That happened twice at the same company, and the second time it resulted in an offer.

    5. Lives in a Shoe*

      That’s how I got my first position when I returned to work from a part-time online teaching few years whilst rearing children. I interviewed for one position, and in the call rejecting me, the hiring manager said, kindly, you don’t have the institutional knowledge* for this position, but there is a similar one in another department – would you be interested? And that is how I started. I’m so happy where I am now, two jobs on, and think fondly of that person to this day.

      *Why yes, it’s higher ed. . .

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      We do that at my company, but I know a lot of other companies don’t because they’re really big and/or siloed

    7. Oh, the POSSIBILITIES!*

      They do, I just got offered a job that way. It’s the first time that has ever happened to me. The manager that did not hire me for the position I applied for forwarded my resume to another manager that had a job opening and I just got offered the job.

    8. usernames anonymous*

      I think it depends on the size of the company and the systems they use. I work at a large company. Resumes received on our system are initially reviewed by our recruitment dept and then shortlisted for review to specific jobs, including ones they did not apply for. Also the hiring dept’s feedback on shortlisted resumes can include recommending candidates to other depts if they think they’d be a good fit.

  58. tella*

    I imagine the issue I’m having is common right now, but I’m at a loss for how to deal with it. The short version is I need to find a new job, but I don’t want to find a new job.

    There is a lot to like about my current job. The work is interesting and I like everyone I work with; I’m even real life friends with a few people. More important to me is that we are permanently hybrid, have unlimited PTO, and are almost never expected to work 40 hours in a week. I usually do 32-35. I realized a few years ago I don’t really care about having a career and just want a job that allows me to pursue the creative projects that are my actual passion.

    The problem is money. I was underpaid before inflation skyrocketed and now I am very underpaid. One of the only issues I have with my company is how they address salaries, but that’s a big issue to have. Leadership tends to gaslight us when we say we are underpaid – we say we are underpaid, they say we are not, we do research to show we are underpaid, and they say our research is wrong. The only way to get a reasonable raise is to get promoted, which has already happened twice for me. I’ve brought up inflation a few times and HR says they are looking into it, but I have little faith they will do anything.

    So I am job searching, but half-heartedly. I just feel anxious and exhausted all the time, and I don’t really want to make a big life change like getting a new job. The pandemic is a huge source of my stress of course, but also some personal challenges. The creative work I love is inherently collaborative and involves performance, and I have not been able perform in almost three years. I have massive amounts of anxiety at the idea of performing again, which I never felt before, and my skills have deteriorated to the point that I’m afraid I just can’t do this anymore. It’s going to take so much work with therapists, re-establishing my friendships and just straight up hours of practice that this may as well be a second job.

    In my ideal world my current job would just adjust my salary to keep pace with inflation but again I do not trust them to do that. I have applied for a few jobs and been rejected for all of them, which honestly has been a relief. But then I look at my bank account and that relief goes away. So I guess I’m looking for advice for multi-tasking my personal and professional development or tips for living with my current situation. Or as a bonus, more ways to ramp up the heat on my current employer to truly do something regarding inflation.

    1. Workerbee*

      This isn’t quite what you asked for, yet it came to mind: Can you get yourself an appointment with a headhunter or recruiting/staffing firm? Then they can do the searching for you with your list of specifications and wants, so that is taken off your shoulders. When they find open jobs, you can decide at that point if you want to pursue them or not.

      And please don’t think you’ve lost your skills. I don’t think we DO lose most skills, they just might get buried under all of our self-bashing and anxiety. Money is a huge problem to tackle and comes with its own demons of low self-worth.

    2. Purely Allegorical*

      Honestly it doesn’t even sound like you like your job. Even if they paid you what you’re worth, your letter is full of things you hate, caused by your job. The only benefit you mentioned was the unlimited PTO and not having to work a full 40 hours a week. There are a lot of other companies offering that right now! Well, at least the unlimited PTO. Getting to deal with 40 hours again won’t be that hard, especially if you enjoy the work.

      I think part of your depression is because you feel so unfulfilled and stagnant. That alone is worth leaving for.

  59. IyanaofNarthalai*

    I’m a white woman running non-profit programs, 8 months pregnant, currently full time (40 hours), going on maternity leave in April. I’ve requested to come back from maternity leave at 4 days (32 hours) per week and my supervisor so far has said it’s not possible in my role (citing needs for coverage, her limited capacity to manage multiple schedules, and if it’s offered to me would need to be available to anyone in a similar role). However, I recently learned that at least 4 members of our admin team (finance/development) work 32 hours per week, including one who made the shift from full time when returning from maternity leave. Programs team is predominantly people of color, Admin team is predominantly white. Any suggestions for how I can advocate for both myself and future folks in similar roles to get this flexible schedule?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      First, make sure you really understand her points. It is plausible that two different departments have different capacity to handle employees with flex schedules.

      Do you have HR, or anyone who would fill a similar role? Your best bet would be to go through official channels, so far as they exist, and highlight the racial inequity that is introduced (however unintentionally) by this policy. If you DON’T have HR, the organization leadership or the board – whoever is accessible to you – could be an alternative.

    2. Soup of the Day*

      It makes sense to me that those departments would have really different needs and expectations. Running a program sounds like there would be a lot more last-minute and time-sensitive situations that need handling, whereas a finance person might have a more predictable schedule.

      Also, if they have a different supervisor, it might be partly down to personal preference. I think it’s worth flagging the racial inequality like Eldritch Office Worker said, but I can see how this could come about naturally just because of the different job descriptions.

  60. Always A Bridesmaid*

    I’ve been looking to change jobs within a highly specialized field with few openings and have had multiple instances in which I’ve been one of 2 finalists, but have ultimately not been offered the job. The final stage is usually a multi-day, campus visit (similar to academia) and comes after several other interview rounds — so, by the time I get to campus, they usually know me pretty well as a candidate and have a sense of how I’d fit with their team. I’ve generally felt these visits have gone well: I’ve had good conversations and have received positive feedback from the interviewers. If I weren’t making it to the final stage, I’d be concerned it’s something about my credentials or my cover letter, etc. … but I’m clearly “doing something right” to make it this far in the process numerous times. My field is very competitive and I know that such decisions often come down to a choice between two pretty evenly matched candidates. I’m still really frustrated and looking for advice on how to deal with the intense disappointment (of getting so close) and on how to figure out if there’s anything I can do to become the 1st choice next time. Thanks!

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Statistically it’s gotta be you sooner or later right?? How frustrating! You could try and solicit feedback but at some point it really is just a numbers game. Definitely in your final conversation with them after not getting the job, ask them to keep you in mind for future positions (specific emphasis on how much you like their XYZ initiative in the department etc). Sometimes the first choice falls through and that leaves you on a good note.

  61. DemoralizedWonk*

    I have a high-status, high-toxicity, l0w-pay at an entry level (which I am) job. It’s the kind of job that gets hundreds of applications per entry-level position, has no HR, and every of the 535 offices is largely at the whim of a single Big Boss (oops, too revealing?)

    Part of me feels so lucky to have this position, which is why I take on all of the verbal abuse, the terrible pay, and the long hours. But I guess that’s how they get you. I’ve only been here for a few months but I sometimes see myself being able to just make it through to a higher position and do and be better. Like if I just tough it out for a few years, I can be more in charge, and I can make both the workplace a better place and actually do some real good in this world.

    Feels naive as I’m so young and would have to be in an exploited position for at least 5 years more before even coming close to that. So part of me also says I should just quit and find something else.

    But in the long run, is 5 years really that much?

    1. Attractive Nuisance*

      1. What is the benefit of working at this abusive place for 5 years, as opposed to working at a less abusive place for 5 years?
      2. Being a good boss does not just require good intentions. It is a learned skill and it also requires support from the organization. Do you think this organization will teach you the skills you need and provide you the support you need to be a good boss?

      1. DemoralizedWonk*

        It’s the kind of job that would do all of the heavy-lifting on a resume, if that makes sense? It feels like 5 years there would guarantee opening certain doors that 5 years somewhere else might not. Plus, I genuinely love the work and this is the *only* place I can do that kind of work.

        Your point about good bosses is so completely right. It’s likely the reason management is so bad – my direct boss in the hierarchal system does have good intentions but it doesn’t seem he has the know-how. Is it possible to have resources/training/support outside of your direct workplace for management skills?

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          You don’t need 5 years for that resume boost — usually 1-2 years is plenty. Take it for someone who left my first toxic job after 2 years and is still getting that resume boost. FYI — 2 years in a toxic job was terrible, 5 years would have been an eternity. Also think about what it might do to your reputation if you stuck around a place that is known to be toxic for 5 years.

          1. Green Goose*

            I would say that unless if it were a contract position, one year would not be looked at as a resume boost at my company. But I also don’t think OP should stay anywhere they are miserable.

    2. Ozzie*

      I think something that is important to consider is, is there actually upward mobility in the company? Do entry level employees ever move up, and is there a distinct pathway for them to do so?

      If yes, maybe it’s worth the trouble. If it’s also up to the whims of the Big Boss, and not consistent…. well, 5 years can be a very long time, if you’re miserable. Especially if at the end of those 5 years, you’re exactly where you started.

      But also consider, if the whole company is at the whim of a single Big Boss…. even if you do move up, can you have any real power to enact that change and make it less miserable?

      Everyone has to make these decisions for themselves, and they’re rarely simple. Just make sure you’re being honest with yourself – about your happiness, your expectations, and what you see as realistically happening as opposed to what you would like to happen. There isn’t a single right or wrong answer, but just the one (or ones) that work for you.

      1. DemoralizedWonk*

        There is upward mobility, and I am currently being taught the skills to take on the next highest-level position (not management). I guess it’s why I feel staying on would be worth it.

        I mentioned this on a comment above, but wondering if I ever will have any real power is a really great point. My direct boss does do management but in the hierarchy can still get only so much done despite good intentions because of other higher-ups.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      Think of it this way: no matter what age you are when you retire (or die) 5 years is still a significant chunk of your career (or life.) (Sit down for a minute and wotk out the percentages. Even if you have a 50-year career, that still means 10% of it will be miserable.) So, the question is, do you want to spend that big a percentage of your career (or life) being miserable for most of you waking hours but enduring it in the hope that you might some day be able to make changes to your organization from the inside?
      Your organization sounds both big and subject to the whims of your leader, neither of which improve your chances of being able to make lasting changes. If you could potentially have a huge impact within your organization or earn a ton of money, you may well feel that the misery is worth it. But the fact that you’re writing this after only a few months on the job makes it seem like you’re leaning towards thinking that it’s not.

    4. Anon for This*

      I worked there years ago. There is lots of job hopping from one big boss to another – some of the offices/bosses are better than others, so network to see if there are openings in the better offices. Depending on party affiliation, you may want to consider moving to the Administration – I think you need to complete a year’s employment in order to qualify to apply for government-only vacancies, which greatly expands the number of jobs you can apply for – but that could have changed – check with your HR.

      Outside of that there is also the large network of think tanks, federally funded research and development corporations (FFRDCs) and beltway bandits that may give you better pay and treatment, but allow you to keep a connection to your chosen field. Good luck – you can do this!

  62. Wendy*

    I am posting this seeking advice for my husband.

    He has been working for a *national nonprofit agency* since October 2020. He began as a floor associate.

    He works at the busiest retail store for this *national nonprofit agency* located in the city where we live 40 hours a week.

    This *national nonprofit agency* mission is to provide job placement and jobs for the mentally and physically challenged. The people who are hired are hired with the understanding that the *national nonprofit agency* will “meet them where they are at” regarding their capabilities on the job.

    Staring in October 2020 his job duties included the following…

    Put up merchandise that the warehouse employees sort and either put on a big rack or in bins. HR expects all floor associates to complete a total of 16 racks or a combination of racks and bins done every day no matter what other duties you are assigned to do.

    Pull merchandise from the floor

    Deliver furniture and other heavy items to customers cars

    Assist at the dressing rooms

    And any other assigned duties from store management

    So, he was multi tasking on a daily basis.

    He could not complete 16 racks of clothes or a combination of racks and bins, but at times he came close depending on how busy he was on any given day.

    Sometime this month he was given a new job title from HR… he was now in a “hybrid” position dividing his time between the warehouse and the front. He was given this new job title an responsibility because he could not complete 16 racks of clothes or a combination of racks and bins consistently 5 days a week. His duties in the warehouse included sorting containers of merchandise that the employees who handled donations made on a daily basis. When it comes to sorting the containers, he has to 1) dump the contents on a table, sort through what is obviously not worth selling, inspect the rest, and repack the container. HR expects everyone to complete the entire process in an hour. HR also expects 5 to 6 containers to be done by everyone at the end of their shift.

    Earlier this week he was told by on of the store managers that HR had sent an e-mail to the location he works at letting them know that is productivity is not up to par with HR. My husband find out that the store manager had e-mailed HR about some concerns with him, but he was never informed of these concerns by any manager at the location he works at. The manager who told him this was informed by HR to give him a verbal warning. That manager told him he was giving him a verbal warning to prevent him from getting fired.

    He needs advice regarding what to do regarding the entire situation as well as what to do going forward.

    1. Fabulous*

      How are his coworkers handling the quotas? Do they seem unrealistic or is he the only one having trouble? Has he talked to them about his physical capabilities and limits, and do they understand his accommodation needs? Does he have to put in an official HR request to have his accommodations met?

      1. Wendy*

        According to my husband, the store manager has e-mailed HR several times letting them know that several store employees cannot meet the quotas, yet HR still expects everyone to meet the quotas no matter how many job duties they have in a day.

        1. Fabulous*

          I would say maybe have your husband go directly to HR to ask what he needs to do to request ADA accommodations, because his physical limitations do not allow him to meet the quota they require and since their mission is to “provide job placement and jobs for the mentally and physically challenged” they should be *happy* to help adjust his quota to match his capabilities. If his coworkers are in the same boat, they can go as a group.

    2. Colette*

      I think there are a few possibilities here:
      1) He is legitimately underperforming
      2) He is underperforming because he is spending too much time on things that don’t count
      3) Their expectations are unreasonable

      If the situation is #1 (possibly in conjunction with #3), one approach would be to ask for accomodations if he needs them – i.e. ask them to meet him where he is as they say they do.

      If the situation is #2, then the answer is to focus on the work that counts. Don’t tidy the dressing rooms or do other work unless he has already met his quota for the day. It might mean doing a less-thorough job, as well – aim for 80% instead of 100%. (Maybe some flaws don’t get spotted, or something that shouldn’t be sold ends up in the pile to be sold; that might be OK.)

    3. beach read*

      If there are any workers hitting the goal, could he shadow them for a day or two and maybe pick up some good tips and best practices?

  63. QuickAnon*

    I have gotten to the exercise part of my application process. I’m excited about them except they want me to do an actual small mail merge in Excel. First, I haven’t done a lot of mail merges in Excel. Second, I don’t actually have the Microsoft Office Suite on my computer. I don’t own it. I know I can ask about that, but honestly, that just highlights I don’t use Excel in my personal life and (to me) I’m not really good at a mail merge.

    Fortunately, I can look the instructions up online. Also, there are two other parts to the exercise. They said in total this should take an hour. This is going to take me way more than an hour.

    I wonder what other managers think. With practice, I could get good at this, but would it eliminate me if I didn’t seem adept at it? And if they think I can do all this in an hour, should I be worried that I can’t meet that expectation?

    1. Ozzie*

      The last time my job hired, we had a skills test. We had designed it to be pretty straightforward for someone outside the organization to understand, and included instructions. I don’t believe we gave anyone a time frame or time limit (that might just be so you can set aside appropriate time to complete?), simply told them to send it back to us before their next interview.

      Out of, I think 8 people who did the skills test, one person had no errors on it, and one person an an error, but also pointed out an error that we had made (that no one else caught). We did not hire the person who made no errors, but instead the one who pointed out our mistake. (Who was also the stronger candidate overall, though I’m bias because she was my top pick)

      I have yet to meet anyone who just… expects people to be able to do a Mail Merge. Unless you’re coming from a job where it would be a very normal job function, I feeeeel like there’s a general expectation that you wouldn’t know how to do it off the top of your head. It’s so niche! (In the same vein, the number of people I have trained to use pivot tables is Almost Everyone We Have Hired In The Past Three Years) So, I think being able to complete it CORRECTLY is more important than QUICKLY, because speed comes with experience, but attention to detail is much, much harder to learn.

      1. QuickAnon*

        They want me to actually do the Mail Merge. This weekend.

        I like your point about being able to attend to detail. I will figure this out this weekend. But no way it’s taking me an hour in total.

    2. Don’t put metal in the science oven*

      It seems like you can get a month free trial of MS Office. Can you install that for the test?

      1. QuickAnon*

        That’s a great idea! I did tell my partner and they have Excel. So that solves one part of it. (Though should employers assume everyone as access to these things? I don’t know.)

        Now, I have to actually do the mail merge and wonder a bit about expectations. I’m evaluating them too and I’m not sure if this is reasonable or normal.

    3. Nessun*

      We do tests in MS Office for all incoming admin, and I’ve taken the tests as a candidate and then later in life as a manager, when we were evaluating their usefulness. Based on the roles I hire for and the efficacy of the tests, I’d not let someone’s scores be more than a minor item when choosing a new employee. What I’m looking for is, how well can you learn what I need you to know about the MS Office product, not how you got the answers you did (which is what those tests mostly test for); so if you went into an interview and talked to me about how you’d handle using the product when you’re not familiar with it, I’d give full points for that and consider it highly against your actual scores.

      If there were no further interviews where you could talk about how you’d approach learning hard skills in the programme, then I’d be looking at your scores versus what you’d said about continuous learning in the earlier interview (it’s something I’d have asked about for sure).

      The tests overall aren’t great, so I don’t put a lot of stock in them – but they do indicate if someone has ever used the program, and their proficiency. At the end of the day I’d rather have someone with the right soft skills (personable, open to learning, attentive to detail, etc.) than someone who’s a whiz with a programme I need them to use. We’ve got training for the programmes.

      1. Nessun*

        To clarify: how well can you learn what I need you to know about the MS Office product, not how you got the answers you did (which is what those tests mostly test for) – I mean, the tests are often “use the shortcuts or no points for you” when what I care about is “can you Google and figure out how to get excel to do this thing”.

        1. QuickAnon*

          I will Google and figure out how to do this thing! And I have done it before just it’s been a while and I didn’t do it often. I am watching expectations because at my last role their expectations for a new employee were so high.

          But my gut says this hiring manager values those soft skills just as you said. They’d be my direct supervisor and I do have another interview scheduled with them for next week.

          But in general, I wouldn’t assume everyone has access to the MS Office Suite at home. Of course there is the library and such but I’d hope tests just were equally accessible to all. On the other hand, it’s good I can Google. I used to do tests for temp agencies in person and it was all there in a few minutes and you knew it or you didn’t. But it did help to have the program in front of you. Sometimes poking around in it, you remember the steps. Like muscle memory.

          1. Nessun*

            Absolutely – I’d never assume everyone has access at home. Our tests are set up so that you take them through a link, which leads to an environment where the programmes are simulated (that’s not quite how it works but close enough), so we don’t assume people have the programmes, we’re providing the platform. I think it’s worth knowing that someone doesn’t have access to MS Office usually, as I would factor that into their results also.

            With another interview after the tests, you have an excellent opportunity for a discussion on how you approached the tests and how you learn in general. Best of luck to you!!

    4. fhqwhgads*

      Excluding the time to either install a trial version of office or go to someone/somewhere who has it, I wouldn’t expect doing a mail merge to take more than 5-10 minutes. I also wouldn’t expect googling how to do a mail merge if you’ve never done it before to take more than another 5-10. Is it the rest of the exercises that have you concerned it’ll take over an hour on the whole?

      1. QuickAnon*

        The first two exercises took about 20 minutes each. A little more time to spell check and clean the formatting up. So about 30 minutes each.

        The Excel exercise is cleaning up the data, so that they are all written “First
        Letters Capitalized” which they aren’t currently and cleaning up any duplicates. Then do the Mail Merge for Labels and for letters in Word, I suppose.

        There are 50 records. And I don’t really know how to do it. So it’s the actual learning, the doing of activity, and the editing of the activity to make sure the final documents are correct. I guess now I’m also including a document with 50 letters. I’m not sure but this part alone will take me an hour.

        I’m a bit concerned about expectations since they thought the entire thing should take less than an hour. This gives me an idea of what my days there might be.

  64. Fabulous*

    I know it’s been talked about endlessly on this site, but how do you combat the anxiety of waiting for a job offer – specifically for an internal job?

    I had my second interview last week and was told they’d be in touch this week. Welp, it’s noon on Friday and I’ve still yet to hear anything. Not to mention that in the time since my interview, my current (beloved) boss informed me that our department is being reorganized (yet again) and she will no longer be my boss in a few short weeks. My *new* boss is a former peer who was just promoted just over a month ago into a supervisory role. She’s supposedly managed people before, but I didn’t particularly like working with her in a peer capacity, and we have VERY different working styles.

    I’ll just say, my anxiety is through the roof if I don’t get this job…

    1. Ashley*

      Keep applying to other jobs. An interview doesn’t mean anything until you have an offer that you like. (Because desperation will make you take a bad offer so keep your options open.)
      Find activities that help reduce your anxiety so your mind has less time to focus on the anxiety. This can really vary to have a few options. Sometimes a good book can help but when the mind starts to wonder off the plot … it really comes down to how you can best manage your anxiety as whole which isn’t always easy.

      1. Fabulous*

        My main problem is, I’m not applying to other jobs. I’d like to stay at my company (hence the internal job app) and there’s nothing else listed currently that fits what I’m looking for. I’d love to put effort into more applications, but it’s hard to justify leaving my company because I have some really great benefits.

        1. JustForThis*

          This line of thinking might unnecessarily limit your options: unless you start looking at other jobs, you won’t even know about their really great benefits.

          1. Oh, the POSSIBILITIES!*

            Very true. I’m also in a job I love with good benefits. I only applied for another job after not getting updates on funding for my current position after waiting for weeks. I haven’t heard back from the promotion opportunity I applied to either but have been offered a higher position with better benefits and pay at another company. Both positions are also remote and doing similar work and I’m thinking about whether to take the opportunity or keep waiting for an update from my organization.

  65. Mulder She Wrote*

    How does one ask for a direct report? I am an IC Project Manager (and a former people manager) and am currently a team of one to….60. I’m good at my job and get great reviews, but I am tired. As we continue to grow, I definitely think I need a backup me. My boss is excellent, but there are several layers of reporting between him and the budget-deciders. How can I make a case for a direct report when currently nothing has slipped through the cracks? Thanks!

    1. Ozzie*

      I would lay out everything you do in your position, and the rough time that it takes you to do all the things. Be realistic, not optimistic. If you’re already maxed out (or over maxed out) on time, and you’re still growing, you already have a pitch! You simply don’t have the capacity to take on additional work, but a direct report could do X, Y, Z things for you, which would give you more capacity to do A, B, C higher level tasks, which contribute to growth of the company overall. Just because things haven’t slipped through the cracks yet, doesn’t mean they won’t as you get progressively more tired, and your workload expands.

  66. JustaTech*

    I need some advice/scripts on what to say to my director when chastises me for continuing to wear a mask after our company masking requirement expires this week.

    Background: I work in biotech, in the lab side, and my director (3 levels up from me) came up from the lab (he has a PhD in something like biochemistry). When the omicron wave started our corporate HR asked everyone who could to WFH (manufacturing staff has to be on-site). The lab folks had mostly been back on-site, but since we don’t do lab work every single day there’s no reason why we couldn’t WFH at least a few days a week. But our director sent out a follow up to the “please WFH” that said “lab personnel will be on-site”. Which, frankly, we all kind of just ignored and only came in on lab work days.

    Corporate HR also said (and there are signs posted all over the building) that we *must* wear a mask unless we are alone in an office with the door closed.

    A couple of weeks ago I was meeting with my director in his office where he wasn’t wearing a mask (I was) and in the middle of chastising me for other stuff he told me I could take my mask off. When I said no he said “why not?” and then said “Don’t you trust science?” This was three sentences after he said that part of why a thing went wrong was because a coworker was out sick with COVID. (He has been really bad about wearing a mask this whole time, and when he does wear one he does it badly.)

    I was, and am, completely flabbergasted that he would ask me to take my mask off when it is 1) in clear violation of company policy 2) a standard safety precaution in the middle of a surge and 3) not impacting him.

    In talking with other coworkers he has said the same thing to another coworker (who was still masking when the rest of us had eased off because of a family member).

    I thought about reporting him to HR (for not wearing a mask when meeting with me, if nothing else) but then I saw our HR person blithely not wearing their mask, so that’s out. We also don’t currently have a safety officer, so that’s also not an option.

    So, what do I say to my director when he sees me wearing a mask next week, when the “must mask” requirement expires, and he tells me I don’t need it/I should take it off?
    “This is my personal choice and I don’t want to discuss it”?
    “I’m wearing it on the advice of a medical professional”?
    “It’s terribly comfortable, I don’t want to take it off!”
    “Please don’t comment on what I’m wearing”?

    I don’t want to be too confrontational (mostly because I’m so mad about this I might just go off on him), but I’d really like to find a line that he’ll have a hard time arguing with.

    1. Ashley*

      I would opt for something a little less in your face personally and go more with, masking is optional and I am opting to mask. Next time they tell you, I know I can take off my mask, but I am choosing to wear a mask can we please stop discussing this? At this stage I am done explaining and engaging around choices, science, risk, and air movement.

    2. Anonymous Hippo*

      I’ve found saying stuff like “I’m trying to protect my newborn nephew” or “my father has several risk factors” or “my grandma wouldn’t survive covid” basically shut down all discussion about it. Anyone who continues after that is a jerk and can be ignored or told off IMO.

    3. Not A Manager*

      “I’m wearing it on the advice of a medical professional.” Hopefully that’s enough. If he follows up you can add, “My family member really needs to avoid COVID.” This is true, because we all really need to avoid COVID.

      1. JustaTech*

        That’s a good plan. It’s also what’s super frustrating about this whole thing because he’s a scientist, he should *know* that we all really need to avoid COVID.

        When he suggested my coworker take her mask off it was so he could see her facial expressions (she’s perfectly expressive around her mask), so part of me wonders if this “no mask” thing is of a piece with the “be in the office” thing, where he thinks if he can’t see us then there’s something fishy going on. (Not that he often/ever comes down to our floor.) All about control I’m guessing.

        1. JustaTech*

          I also just discovered that I’m technically “high risk” for COVID because I have ADHD (but no explanation on *how* that makes me high risk).
          So I guess I could say “Based on updated guidelines I am high risk because of an existing medical condition”, but I know he’ll either pry or assume I’m pregnant. (I’ve discussed the ADHD with plenty of people at work including the VP under my director, but I don’t have any accommodations and I don’t know that it’s come up with the director specifically.)

          1. River Otter*

            (but no explanation on *how* that makes me high risk)

            While I cannot speak to ADHD specifically, mental health risks for increased severity of Covid tend to center around the types of behaviors that are common in people with mental or developmental conditions. So, a person with depression might not have been taking care of their health in general, and therefore their poor health is likely to result in increased severity of a Covid infection. That sort of thing.

          2. RagingADHD*

            I have not seen any official reports of higher risk related to ADHD, but if it isn’t behavioral as River Otter nentioned, it might be related to other risk factors that tend to cluster with ADHD, like autoimmune disease and sleep apnea.

          3. allathian*

            From what I saw while browsing for this out of pure curiosity, people who have an ADHD diagnosis and who aren’t taking any medication for it are less likely to comply with Covid precautions, such as wearing a mask properly and washing and disinfecting their hands. This is what seems to constitute the higher risk for infection, at least according to one Israeli study. The same study found that untreated ADHD was the only mental health condition that increased the risk of Covid infection.

            That said, I hope you can get your director off your case about your decision to continue wearing a mask.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        This is the one I’d go with. “My doctor has advised me to continue masking for now” isn’t really something he can fight you on without looking like an even bigger jerkwad than he already does.

    4. Sea Anemone*

      “I’m wearing it because I *do* trust science”

      Is option 3 a princess bride reference? I would lean hard into that one!

      1. JustaTech*

        It’s totally a Princess Bride reference!
        Sadly the director didn’t take my science-based arguments very well, which is an extra layer of frustrating because while I don’t have a PhD, I do have a Master’s of Public Health (even though I don’t get to use it much).

    5. Anon for This*

      I’ve been telling people that I haven’t had a cold all winter, so will probably continue wearing mine even after the CDC says we don’t have to – and will probably wear it again next winter!

      I do like suggestions #2 and 3. Hard to argue with ether of them. #1 and 4 strike me as inviting the questioner to get snarky.

    6. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Ugh, this is so frustrating, I’m sorry. Personally, I think it’s good to have a few options in your back pocket depending on how much emotional labor you are able to expend at the moment. Here are mine:

      Person: You don’t need a mask, you can take it off.

      Low emotional labor: (breezily) Nah, I’m good! So, about this other thing on a completely different subject…
      Medium emotional labor: (casually) Oh, it’s actually still the guidance from corporate HR to wear one unless I’m alone in an office, so I’m gonna keep it on for now.
      Higher emotional labor: (solemnly) I can’t take the risk of passing on covid to my vulnerable family member, so I’m going to keep the mask on.

    7. RagingADHD*

      How about “I’d rather keep it on, thanks.” And/or “It’s not bothering me.”

      He is baiting you with these wisecracks. You dont need to answer them, because they are merely intended to provoke, not to have any kind or rational discussion. You can’t stop him from trying to argue. But you can stop yourself from participating.

      If he won’t drop the subject, either change the subject yourself to the thing you need to ask for, or say “Okay, if we’re done, I need to get back to work.”

  67. AlltheQuestions*

    I’m considering applying for a job, but one of the submission requests is “A report, memo, or policy that you created for internal or external use. Please explain the problem you were trying to solve, who the audience was, and what resulted from it.” I have created all the policies at my current job, so I have material to submit. Probably the best example would be our staff handbook which includes two specific polices as addendums, both of which I developed. My concern would be the ethics of using this material. Any thoughts on using this? If I use it should I redact any company info? If it seems kind of sketchy to use it, what other alternatives should I consider? Thanks!

    1. A&D*

      I would use it, but redact it thoroughly. I always include a cover letter for writing materials that says “this is what was redacted and why” and will put the redacted info in brackets.

    2. 1qtkat*

      I would redact identifiable information or just put in dummy information for a fictional company. And then explain what you have done in a cover sheet for the report or memo. I have used dummy information when submitting memo writing samples from internships I have worked at and it’s perfectly acceptable to not want to identify the company or in my case a client.

  68. New teacher*

    I’m looking for some advice about cover letter writing for teachers. I know the general rule of thumb is to tailor the cover letter to your job, but if I’m applying to be, say, a 4th grade teacher, how much differentiation is there between that position at different schools? I’m open to moving all over the country so I guess I could mention something about each city, but what else should I do to customize it for each job?
    Also, if anyone has an example of a good cover letter for teachers I would love to see it. I’be googled some examples but they seem either really hyperbolic (I raised standardized reading scores in my class by 67%!) or kind of boring and trite (I’ve loved kids from an early age and look forward to making a difference in the lives of young people). What would a principal or school hiring manager actually look for?

    1. AlltheQuestions*

      I don’t have specific teacher cover letter experience, but I will say that the key to tailoring a cover letter is to use the job description for the job to which you are applying. I have a few cover letter versions with different stories showing my experience and skills. This at least gives me a starting point when applying to different jobs. I then usually do a split-screen between the job description and my Word document to craft a cover letter that tells my story of how I fit what they are seeking. For example, maybe one school is seeking a teacher to specifically raise standardized test scores but another school is seeking a teacher who exceeds at getting uninterested kids engaged. I would have a story or example for each of those as to how I would be successful or what I have done before. Good luck!

      1. Chriama*

        Thanks for that. I will say that I don’t necessarily have accomplishments like that because I haven’t had a full time teaching job, but I can at least try to emphasize parts of my practicum experience that line up with parts of the job posting.

    2. Dr. KMnO4*

      I think you can tailor it not based on the job duties, but on the school itself. Is the school public or private? If private, are they religious? Is it a large school or small school? Is it rural, suburban, urban? What is the racial makeup of the student body? What about the SES?

      Once you have the answers to those questions, you can go a few different ways:
      1. Describe experiences you’ve had in schools with similar profiles
      2. Talk about how your teaching philosophy fits with the school’s mission (especially for religious schools)
      3. Talk about why you want to work at that school, and with those students

      1. I read teacher cover letters*

        Yes! Teacher cover letters should be customized to the characteristics and culture of the school. Why are you applying to THIS job or district? What previous experiences did you have with a similar population? The research and writing should help you figure out what jobs you actually want to apply for- since there are so many openings right now.
        And if it isn’t local, do mention wanting to live in the area and being eligible for certification in the state. Long distance moves for teaching jobs are not the norm (although it would be a positive to my principal).

        Teaching jobs are plentiful right now, you are in a good position. And if you are really open to moving anywhere, take a look at Eastern Washington State, like around Spokane, WA- we have good pay, relatively good working conditions, and lower cost of living.

        1. Teacher Lady*

          I agree that this is the key, rather than emphasizing 4th grade vs. (ex.) 3rd grade. If the school has some unique (or even relatively unique) features, make sure to touch on those in your cover letter. For schools that are run-of-the-mill, still see if you can figure out what they think makes them unique (ex. STEM programs, arts offerings, inclusive classrooms) and touch on that. [I say this because so many schools are like “We have STEM!” when it really means “We do teach science, a standard course offering, but want to seem like it’s integral to our identity!” Source: I’m a teacher who job-hunted in 2019 and 2020.]

  69. Vladimir*

    Do you have any positive examples of multinational companies handling a cross-border crisis competently? My European MNC with some business units in both Russia and Ukraine sent a lacklustre internal message (e.g. no mention of war or attack) that has collected comments from employees around the world with a wide variety of views. One seemed to accidentally insult China to which a Chinese colleague responded to and that defensive response was quite far from mainstream European views of global politics and so on. So overall this seemed to go pretty badly and make everyone mad but I feel like I have no idea how it should have been handled.

  70. Rachel*

    A supervisory position just opened in my work group, and I’ve decided not to apply because my asthma has been wildly out of control and I just don’t have the physical or mental bandwidth to take on more.
    1 – What do I say if a colleague asks whether I’ve applied or if I’m disappointed that I didn’t get it? A colleague that I’m close with asked if I was going to apply and I told her the truth, but I’m not close with everyone. And I bet some people in other groups will assume that I didn’t get picked.
    2 – I’m slightly worried that the supervisor one level up (who will pick the new supervisor) will ask why I didn’t apply. What do I say? (I kind of suspect they wouldn’t pick me anyway but that’s probably imposter syndrome talking and it doesn’t matter anyway because I’m not applying.)
    Thank you!!

    1. Dragonfly7*

      I would say something like, “I’d like to someday, but now isn’t the right time for me.”
      I left a grad school program for a health-related reason, and I give a similar answer when I get asked if I’m going back.

  71. Sable*

    Ok, so, I’m one week into a new job. I’m in an administrative position, and I just learned how to answer and direct phone calls. I’ve answered office phones before so that comes naturally, but this is the biggest company I’ve ever worked for, so learning to transfer callers to the correct person/department is the tricky part.
    A couple days ago, I answered a call that was from the company owner’s wife (though I didn’t know that at the time). It went pleasantly, I thought. I was polite, and I was able to transfer her to who she needed to speak to without issue.
    But this morning, I found out that she reported me to both HR and my department manager for not addressing her by name and for not thanking her for calling. A note of reprimand has been placed in my personnel file, per her request.
    Am I wrong for feeling like this is an overreaction? I didn’t address her by name because I didn’t know who she was. Like I said, this is my first week. I understand if I needed to be told about this so I know for next time. But it seems harsh to require a formal reprimand for something like this.
    There’s nothing I can really do, I suppose. Just wanted to know if my feelings are out of line. My confidence is pretty shaken after getting into trouble so quickly into this job.

    1. I was told there would be llamas*

      Your feelings are not out of line! I would ask your manager the part about thanking someone for calling…like does your manager have a script they want you to follow? Geez, I can’t believe she complained.

      1. WellRed*

        And maybe ask to have reprimand removed from your file since you couldn’t possibly have known who she was. Also, maybe don’t get too comfortable and keep looking.

    2. not a doctor*

      No, her actions (and theirs) are bizarre and over the top. You did nothing wrong and should take this as a sign that you might want to be on the lookout for other red flags.

      1. Anon for No Reason*

        What not a doctor said. I answered phones for seven years with all kinds of people calling. Spouses, trustees, parents. This is unusual unless they have given you a specific script.

    3. JimmyJab*

      Sounds like a bonkers power trip to me. Maybe it is indicative of how people are treated at your new job, hopefully not.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        “Don’t you know who I am?!” Best case scenario, the formal complaint has an asterisk next to it marking it as yet another baseless complaint from Owner’s Wife that we have to include or she’ll throw a bigger fit.

        How did the Dept Manager handle it with you? If they seemed to think it was merited, that’s a red flag because the complaint was ridiculous and unwarranted. If they rolled their eyes about it, that shows they recognize that the issue is all OW and not you at all.

    4. Nessun*

      I’ve been where you are – sympathy and hugs from someone who knows that gut-kick feeling.

      As much as you can, I’d say try not to worry about it. You’ve learned she’s a bit of a diva, and you have a further piece of information on how to conduct yourself on the phone (saying thanks for calling is something easy to add to all calls, and she’ll never get to complain about it again).

      I’d take in what you can learn, note that she’s a little on the side of Too Much, and just focus on being great at what you do. You’ve only been there a short time, so this is just a way to show you learn when you’re asked to change, and you take comments onboard and action them. Use that, and continue to do the good job you were already doing. Eventually this can be just a small bump in your first interaction, and nothing important in your larger career.

    5. Workerbee*

      If a note of reprimand is unavoidable because the owner’s wife can’t exist without being deemed Very Important By Others At All Times, then that note of reprimand should only have been laid on whomever is training you. AND you should have been made aware about this ridiculous and harsh policy for imagined infractions. I am sure she didn’t know who you were either, but that of course is okay… bleargh.

      This place is nuts. Leave before you get PTSD (seriously).

    6. Американка (Amerikanka)*

      So sorry that happened to you! In my opinion, that lady sounds completely arrogant and unreasonable. I would feel similarly to you if I were in your shoes.

    7. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      This is BANANAS. As someone who has had multiple jobs that involve answering phones from the general public, the idea that someone not directly employed with your company could report you to HR for such a minor thing and they would actually take it seriously is WILD.

      It might be worth talking to your manager about how feedback for performance issues is typically given. Having a note put in your personnel file for such a minor mistake during your first week is really concerning. You could say something like “I’m concerned that a note of reprimand has been placed in my personnel file for a mistake I made in my first week while I’m still learning how to do this job. How is feedback typically given for people in (your position)?” I have more ideas but am struggling to articulate them because my receptionist blood is boiling.

    8. Cj*

      Were you supposed to ask them who is calling and then say “thank you for calling, Greta” when you transferred them? That’s the only thing that makes sense to me. But even if that is the case, that is a training opportunity for them to let you know how they you want me to handle calls, not an official reprimand in your personnel file.

      And if you had followed my aforementioned script, she probably still would have been pissed off that you didn’t recognize her voice, even though you had never spoken to her before.

  72. schedule woes*

    Right now, I work two PT library jobs, and my schedule worked out that I essentially only get 2-3 days off a month. I had a breakdown Wednesday cause I just had worked 2 weeks in a row straight + just other stress piled on, so I took it off.

    I’d like to talk to my newest PT job (3 months) about moving my schedule around so I’d work one 8 hour shift (or do a split—morning then night), instead two separate 4 hour shifts on two days. How would I word it to my managers? I’m usually not shy about asking for schedule changes, but I’ve usually been at a job for a ~year before ever needing stuff moved around.

    My job also works in that we essentially only have 3 departments: admin, circulation, and public services which covers teen, youth, and adult desks. I DO NOT want to be on the youth desk if I can get my schedule changed and I’m worried about making that demand as well demanding a schedule change. (Teen is…. okay but I’d honestly prefer to stay at adult.)

    (I am also trying to leave cause I realize this job isn’t for me.)

    1. dear liza dear liza*

      Libraries usually deal with a lot of part-timers whose schedules fluctuate. I would simply tell the supervisor that your availability has changed, so you’ll need to the one day shift. You can also say you really enjoy and are most useful (or something beneficial to the library) in adult services, so you’d like to keep that arrangement. Don’t say you dislike teens, just emphasize what you like.

    2. Paris Geller*

      I’m not a manager but I am a librarian who has had to deal with schedules when my manager is out and personally, I find it way easier to work with part-timers who want longer shifts! An 8 hour shift is way easier to schedule than two 4 hour shifts, so I don’t think that will be that big of an issue.

      The not wanting to work on the youth desk is probably more of a battle if your department is meant to cover all three. I’d focus on what you feel like you do best working on the adult/reference desk–do you tend to get more actual reference questions there? Do you have a good rapport with regular patrons? When you ask for this, I’d focus more on what you feel you can offer in your job if you’re scheduled on that desk more regularly than on the fact that you don’t want to work a particular desk.

    3. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I agree with the previous commenters, getting your hours consolidated to a single day will probably be easier than restricting your duties by age level. Libraries are generally used to having part time staff, and rearranging the shift hours happens all the time, so swapping out two short days for a long day isn’t really a big ask.

      But. Over the last several years, I’ve noticed fewer and fewer of the libraries in my region are separating their reference and programming staff into adult or youth services. Some libraries have done away with the idea of separate service desks for the children’s area, expecting all staff to provide reference services to whoever comes in. I have a colleague who’s been pushing to stop providing programs for one particular age group that they don’t prefer, but our administrators expect all programming staff to provide programs for all ages, so there’s really no way out of it. If the library where you work is like that, then I don’t think there’s a way to get them not to schedule you for the youth desk. You can try, but they might not go for it.

  73. KimberlyR*

    I will be promoted to Team Lead soon and I’ve never had any sort of management or official managerial role. I have, unofficially, served as a team lead in various jobs and I have been a trainer and preceptor in various jobs, including this one. I kind of serve as a Team Lead now, unofficially. What kinds of questions should I ask? I don’t have any sort of power trip (and, in fact, suffer from Imposter Syndrome) so I want to ask what kind of manager/lead aspects I’ll need to take on, if any.

    I am currently training someone, and my boss and I were discussing her workload. I went back to her and said “we….” and she questioned who we was, and if I was some sort of manager. She is not going to last (she is on her final chance within her initial 90 day probation period) but it did get me wondering if we should hammer that out, or if this will basically be what I’m doing now but with the official title.

    Am I overthinking this? Would you ask about it and if so, what specifically would you ask?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Why not just say your a team lead when she asked? Or team lead in training if that’s the sticking point for you.

      1. KimberlyR*

        I was told that we can’t announce it yet. My boss told me in confidence but HR has to announce these things first. (I have no apprehensions it won’t be announced-my boss has only ever told me of raises and stuff like that once she had approval so I know it’s coming within the next month or two, as she transitions more to upper management stuff and less day-to-day doing what we’re doing.)

  74. LilacLily*

    I just got the okay to take a week of sick leave from my GP due to burnout and I had a call to talk about it with my boss today. I know I didn’t have to tell him exactly why I’m on sick leave but I didn’t want him worrying that I was off for something worse and I also wanted him to be aware of my situation. He asked if there was something he could do to help my return to work once my leave is over and I told him I’d take the weekend to think about it, but I did mention that my biggest problem with work at the moment is that I’m always exhausted at the end of the day, meaning I have no energy for house chores or personal hobbies and the weekends don’t ever feel long enough to do both. I mentioned the 4 days 30 hour weeks effort that some companies have been adopting and how I think that’d help me, but I really can’t take the pay cut of working only four days a week. He said that he understands that completely, as he’s been working 4 days a week for years, but in his case he was able to take the paycut. He suggested I work an extra hour a day so I could take Friday off without a pay cut, however, despite being one of the most productive people on the team, I’m also fast at working through my tasks, meaning that my productivity in numbers is great but in hours it looks appalling. Case in point, at one point my boss suggested that his expectation is that I have an average of 24 hours per week of ticket work, but looking back at the past three weeks my average is in the 13 hours. Just thinking about that makes me even more anxious and outlines exactly why the extra hour a day would feel to me like I’m lying to the company in a sense.

    I’ve been job hunting and I’m finally having an interview next week with a different company for a higher position role which should be a great opportunity for my career, but I’m also slightly worried about that job; the introduction call I had a few days ago revealed that the job pays only £3k more than my current job, which is a much lower raise than I was hoping/expecting, and while my current job is 37.5 hours a week this job would be 40 hours a week. Just thinking about working even longer hours makes me want to cry.

    My boss really appreciates and recognizes the good work that I do and he said he was proud of me for recognizing I needed help and taking the time I need to recover. He’s recently got a promotion, meaning that soon he won’t be my line manager anymore, but he’s mentioned that he’s going to fight for the team leader role, which vanished into thin air when our previous lead quit with nothing lined up due to severe burnout, to be reinstated, and he hopes that I take that role once that happens. I wouldn’t be opposed to it, but lord only knows *when* that’ll happen; I have little to no trust in the leaders of my company to make good decisions, with a few exceptions here and there, my boss being one of them, but I’m keenly aware that there’s only so much one person and one voice can do when it comes to significative change.

    I would love people’s advice here. Should I take the extra hour a day and stay until the team lead role is posted? Should I accept the other job if that goes well? I’m considering negotiating the hours and pay, but given what I learned about the job in my previous call I’m not really hopeful they’ll be in a position to accept it. I’m actively job searching but so far it’s been tough to find a role with the pay raise I’m hoping for and know I deserve for my role and experience level, but I’m so exhausted that I’m now wondering if I should adjust my expectations and just take what I can get.

    Thank you if you’ve read so far

    1. This is My Happy Face*

      I want to dig on something you said: you’re getting work done at a much faster pace than your peers, in fact at almost double the expected pace. Your boss has laid out the metrics for your job in terms of time, but could you talk to them about changing or at least translating that into tasks for you? For example, let’s say you are a teapot designer and you get 24 teapot requests each week. Your current metric is assuming you will spend 24 hours on those requests, but if you get them done faster than that, you aren’t hurting the company. So maybe it’s your job metrics that are part of the problem here. Maybe not everyone would benefit from being measured by number of teapots designed rather than hours spent designing, but you sure would.

      1. LilacLily*

        That is true. I will try and pull the team numbers overall to see how I compare in numbers and hours if compared to the rest of my team before my next call with my boss. What also frustrates me is that we were just talking today about how we both understand that it’s not about how long you work for but whether you get the work done or not, but then he turned around and said that! I know that that’s what’s expected of employees at our company and it makes sense that you should strive to be as productive as possible in order to be as profitable as possible, but it’s just a stupid policy that just encourages people to lie on their timesheets.

        We’ll see how next week goes; I’m looking forward to resting for a bit. Thank you again!

    2. Kathenus*

      The new job does not sound like it has a lot of positives for you – less increase in pay than you’d hoped and more hours. Trying the extra hour a day and seeing how that new schedule works for you seems pretty low-risk and you can keep looking at other jobs in the meantime while you try it out and/or wait for the team lead. Your choice, of course, but from the way you described things in your post I’d stay in current job and keep looking at options too.

    3. Workerbee*

      If the company is going to be firm on adhering to measurements that don’t make sense on a case-by-case basis, then I would stop thinking of taking the extra hour as “lying to the company.” They certainly aren’t concerned with accuracy! You already have largely no trust in leadership, which makes sense as things like this come from the top down.

      So take the extra hour if you’d like, but otherwise learn how to track your output and time differently, and keep actively job searching (get a recruiter/staffing agency to help you do this if you haven’t already). The place you are in isn’t going to change.

    4. MoMac*

      I think you may be minimizing the stress reduction by having 3 days off in a row. The Friday or Monday would be for doctor’s appointments, car appointments, grocery shopping etc. And then you have 2 weekend days off with nothing to do but sleep, hang with friends, do yoga etc.
      That actually allows you to collapse after your work days and still have a functioning life because things are attended to. I am a huge believer in 4 day work weeks.

      1. LilacLily*

        same! they help SO MUCH. I wonder how the company I’m interviewing with would feel if I tried negotiating that, with the caveat that I’ll make myself available for customer calls on Fridays from 9 to 5 if needed. my mental health has been taking such a dive with the philosophy that we need to spend most of our days and lives working that I really dont know for how much longer I can abide to this.

        my sister is adamant that I take the new job if it’s offered to me – they have flexible working hours, 5% annual raises and have promised to make me a senior in the 1 year mark – meaning I shouldn’t take the 4 week day offer from my boss so he doesn’t spend capital getting it approved only for me to turn around and put in my notice. I have lots to think about.

  75. Brownie*

    Anyone have suggestions on improving auditory processing/paying attention to telemeetings? If I’m not actively participating my brain turns the meeting audio into background noise instead of active input, like tuning out coworker chatter in a cube farm. I’ve tried using a headset vs speakerphone, allowing speaker video so there’s something for my eyes to track, fidget cubes/stim toys, standing… nothing I’ve tried works. I still start tuning out if it’s been 4 or 5 minutes where I haven’t had to interact with the meeting and then I start missing information and can’t keep track of what’s being talked about. Any ideas on how to make my ears start paying attention?

    1. This is My Happy Face*

      I take notes during boring meetings. As if it’s my job to be the person taking meeting notes. I do not advertise this because I don’t want it to be my actual job and I often end up throwing away the notes, but it helps keep me from zoning out.

      1. Dragonfly7*

        Same on the notes – I even take notes during the sermon at church! It also helps if I’m taking notes to immediately type up and share with another person, like colleagues who are missing a meeting for a shared committee. I also need to close every other tab, app, etc. so I don’t have distractions or pop-up notifications.

      2. Brownie*

        I’ll try this! Extra bonus is that it will keep me from getting distracted with other work and will provide a record of what decisions were made or information shared during the meeting so later on when my coworkers start talking about doing B instead of A I can refer back and say “No, we decided on A at meeting.”

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Can you get automated closed-captioning/transcriptions enabled? The technology is much better than it used to be, and maybe you’d do better by reading the words than listening to them.

      1. Brownie*

        While Teams has auto-transcription as an option we’ve been told not to use it as it keeps a written record of what’s talked about and, since some of the subject matter is sensitive/PII, we’d have to go through entire security procedures of having the written record labeled, stored, and otherwise dealt with as PII. I do so much better with reading than listening, I wish hard that transcription was an option. Plus then I’d have a good record to use for “No, you said A, not B” later on when coworkers/bosses get confused as to what was decided, which is an ongoing aggravation of mine.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Oh that’s a bummer.
          Of course, if Teams is storing the video/audio, it’s just as much of a PII matter, it’s just harder to search.

    3. Nusuth*

      In addition to taking notes – maybe a fidget toy? Having another thing to divert some energy to and keep you somewhat occupied without fully diverting you can be helpful for me, and I also have some attention issues.

  76. Awkward Potato*

    So I recently started to talking to someone that I met at a bar. He is really sweet, nice, all that good stuff. We haven’t been able to get together since he is in the Army Reserves and has been at extended training, but he has asked me out for when he gets back next week. Anyways, I work for a state trade association(9 employees) and, as it turns out, he works for our biggest business partner (about 100 employees). Granted I have never had to work with him directly in the past, and his position wouldn’t overlap with any of my coworkers. I am obviously going into things a bit more cautiously since I would normally. While not an inter-office relationship, our organizations do a lot of work together and, frankly, his company gives my organization a lot of money each year.

    Anyways, does anyone have any advice/helpful tips for a kinda-ish sorta work overlapping relationship?

    1. onyxzinnia*

      Since it’s so early, I’d say enjoy getting to know each other better and see where it goes. If this develops into a formal relationship, you both should look up your company policy around interpersonal relationships. If his organization is considered a vendor of yours, you might have to declare the relationship to avoid conflict of interest.

  77. AM*

    I’m currently attending a coding bootcamp. We are working on resumes and some of the instruction I’ve been given is questionable. I’m in the US.

    My school is instructing me to list them under Experience instead of Education. I feel this is dishonest. This is a school where I’m learning coding, I’m not an employee there and this is not an internship. They are also giving me a blurb to describe the program. The blurb sounds ambiguous to me depending on how you read it: you could see it describing a school or you can see it describing an apprenticeship/internship/similar work program. The major issue I have is how they want me to call this Experience.

    I feel this is not going to help me on my job search. When someone scrutinizes my resume, it will end up in the reject pile because I’ll be seen as padding my resume. I’ve been on a few interviews for unpaid internships and (in my opinion) they’ve asked me questions like this school is a job/work experience. IDK how much that matters because I think unpaid internships don’t have as strict standards as a paid internship or a job.

    What’s the consensus on this? Is it a thing to list your coding bootcamp under Experience?

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Your gut is correct, and it’s weird that they’re giving you such specific instructions on how to list it on your resume. Maybe they’re hoping to use this as a form of advertising? Anyway no put it as education or training.

    4. AM*

      I’m glad I’m not off base on this. The weird thing is this school has brought in volunteers to give input on our resumes. The volunteers see the school under Experience, but none of them questioned me on it. I think the school someone how convinced them this was ok. These volunteers are working professionals in the tech industry. SMH.

      The school also gave my resume to companies when I interviewed for entry-level positions. Again, I was not questioned on why the school is listed under Experience.

      I guess no one asked questions because the school is a non-profit and they don’t want to accuse the school or me of wrong-doing.

      But I’m SMH so hard it’s about to fall off.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        If it makes you feel better I honestly don’t think this is the kind of thing most hiring managers would reject you over. If you were an otherwise strong candidate I wouldn’t even blink at it – I see some very odd resumes and just chock it up to all the inconsistent advice out there. It belongs in education but it’s not the worst faux pas.

    5. voluptuousfire*

      Eh, I’ve seen resumes that list their coding BootCamp as their most recent “role” and it did not get anyone a call with a recruiter that I recall. I work in tech recruitment and while coding bootcamps can be a good place to gain that bedrock experience, I’d call it an internship that you’re paying for. I do recall we hired a female bootcamper for an engineering internship in my local office but did not hire anyone who was fresh out of a bootcamp for an entry-level role. I helped hire consulting engineers so someone so green would not be a fit. We looked at a minimum of two years’ experience as an engineer.

  78. school of hard knowcs*

    I have a large .pst file (think 500 emails) with attachments that needs to be printed. Printing them one by one is tedious. I can mass print to pdf but not the attachments. I would also be willing to outsource this done. Suggestions please?

  79. Ethical Dilema*

    I recently found out I have Native American ancestry. I took a Ancestry DNA test and then my spouse did the research into my lineage. I am applying to jobs and they almost always ask for ethnicity. Would it be wrong to indicate I am Native American when my ancestors chose not to participate in the Dawes rolls? I think it would be wrong if it put me at an advantage in the hiring process but I am not sure.

    2. Anonymous Hippo*

      Let me start by saying I’m not Native American, so buckets of salt here.

      I think “wrong” might be too strong a word. But do you identify as Native American? It sounds to me like you don’t, that it’s a new piece of information to you. If in the future you get more involved in that aspect of your heritage I think it would be fine to self-identify as Native American, but at this point it seems a little odd to me. I don’t know that it would advantage you, but I would be a little concerned that the company would use it indicate a level of diversity that they don’t really have.

    3. LDN Layabout*

      Wikipedia might not be the best source for this, however:

      An ethnic group or ethnicity is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include common sets of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area.

      If it takes a blood test to discover it, I’d say it would be unethical.

    4. Chirpy*

      Unless you are more than 1/16 Native American, I wouldn’t. As I understand it, that’s often the minimum to be considered for federal tribal admission. If you do know what tribe though, I’d contact them and talk to tribal members to see what they think. Some tribes require a higher percentage for membership, and some are more open to receiving distant relatives. And maybe you’ll get to know some cool family history! But also, for now, if you’ve never identified as Native American before and have no cultural connection, it isn’t great to claim to be part of a marginalized group based on a sliver of ancestry.

    5. Loulie*

      This is just an opinion. I have significant (legally qualifying, I’m 1/16th) Native American ancestry and I look and was raised white. I’m told I look “ethnic” but everyone guesses stuff like Italian, Greek, Polynesian(!)…etc. I’ve only represented myself as Native American on the bone marrow registry and only because like other ethnic groups it can sometimes be a challenge getting a good match outside their group. I don’t think it would be ethical to call myself Native American when I was not raised in that tradition and never thought of myself as anything but white, although technically my genetics prove otherwise.

      1. Chirpy*

        This is how I feel, a DNA test revealed I’m technically part “Latvian”, but as it was part of Prussia when my ancestors lived there, and I’ve always known that side of the family as Prussian, I just see it as knowing what part of Prussia they came from. I wouldn’t call myself Latvian because I have no link to that culture.

    6. Gracely*

      NPR had a couple really good podcasts about this recently. Look up “Pretendians” on the Code Switch podcast, or just google it–there was a story about this exact topic two days ago.

      If you didn’t grow up as and/or haven’t invested significant time in participating in Native American culture, it’s not going to be a good idea to include it as your ethnicity.

    7. Sea Anemone*

      Employers only ask that so they can report demographic statistics to the government. The people interviewing you will probably not even see it.

      Outside of employment demographics, the message I consistently see from Native groups is that heritage is not determined by DNA. If you were able to confirm that you have some number of Native ancestors, I suggest that if you want to start acknowledging that part of your ancestry, that you acknowledge as “my great-grandfather was Chippewa.”

      Of course, I am a white-y mcwhiteerson, so it might be best to go some googling to see how actual Native people prefer that non-Natives with some confirmed Native ancestors, but not enough for tribal membership, talk about themselves.

      1. Attractive Nuisance*

        The person interviewing her might not even see it… but I think it’s a good test to pretend everyone will see it. Would you feel comfortable walking up to a new coworker, or your best friend or your mom or your neighbor or another Native person, and saying “I’m a Native American”? If not, you might not be ready to check the box on the form.

    8. DEI Programs*

      I don’t know about the legalities around it, but my sensibilities tell me that sharing ancestral DNA with an ethnic group is not the same as belonging to that ethnic group. Other commenters have pointed this out, but a lot of your membership of a particular group comes from other shared attributes and experiences. And if you’ve historically ID’d as white, there are some ethical implications to claiming to be part of a nonwhite group. I don’t think you would be favored individually in hiring processes, but you could possibly screw over other minority groups in companies/org who track demographic data to meet quotas, by possibly taking the place of someone who actually has grown up being marginalized for being Native American and encountered institutional barriers to advancement.

      1. DEI Programs*

        I should also mention that I’m not Native American (but I am nonwhite) so put that into context.

      3. Attractive Nuisance*

        Right. This situation reminds me of when someone takes a DNA test and says they found out they’re Jewish. Well, no, what you found out is that you are related to people who were Jewish at some point. There are plenty of ways for you to build a Jewish identity if you want, but no one is interested in your DNA results.

    9. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Pleeeease do not. It’s like when people tell me they’re Jewish too because some distant relative was and isn’t that just so great? And doesn’t it entitle them to take the High Holidays off?

      I am super sensitive about this, I admit, but if you don’t identify as Native, don’t check that box.

    10. Lady Danbury*

      In my opinion, if you require a DNA test to find out that you’re some sort of ethnicity, then you probably don’t have enough of a connection to indicate it on any type of official record. Obviously there are potential exceptions (adoptees, etc).

    11. Jacey*

      With the massive caveat that I am not, myself, Native American, I want to give my perspective on this as someone from a different minoritized group that many people have some genetic link to without any cultural links.

      Please don’t indicate that your ethnicity is Native American because of ancestry testing. It’s not just about whether you’d get an advantage in the hiring process (although I’ll talk about that in a moment). It’s about how hurtful it is to minoritized people to be simultaneously punished for expressing their culture while watching others reap the benefits of the biological part of our heritage.

      If—like me—you understand these issues better with examples, here’s a (rather goofy) hypothetical one for you:

      Say we live in a world where people who hate cilantro are minoritized and oppressed. There’s a history of genocide, slavery, and hatred from pro-cilantro and cilantro-ambivalent people towards anti-cilantro people. Even though you live in a country and era where overt bigotry towards cilantro haters is discouraged, it still happens, and every so often it’s egregious enough to make the news. Cilantro haters are mocked, excluded, and otherwise socially punished for preparing their traditional cilantroless meals and eating them in view of others (at the office, in school, etc.). They miss out on housing and job opportunities. They have a higher rate of health problems being dismissed or mistreated. Their rates of poverty are significantly higher than other groups.

      One day, you do an ancestry test, and discover that some of your ancestors had the cilantro-tastes-like-soap gene. You eat cilantro every day. Does this new information entitle you to identify or represent yourself as a cilantro hater? I suspect you’d agree it doesn’t.

      Now let’s talk about the real world again. If, as you suspect, marking yourself as indigenous would increase your chances of getting a job, who are you robbing of that advantage? It’s not white folks, who aren’t going to get that “bump” anyway. It’s Native Americans competing for the same job, who are now also competing in a mini-contest against someone who claims their heritage but doesn’t live with the structural disadvantages it gives them day to day. If an employer is really giving preference to hiring Native Americans, you’re robbing that exact group of the one situation in life where their heritage is an advantage.

      So… please don’t do it.

      1. Jacey*

        Just realized my line about “the only situation in life” could be offensive! Obviously there are wonderful parts about being indigenous or belonging to any other culture, minoritized or not! What I was trying to get across is that usually those moments of wonderfulness don’t come with economic compensation for existing in our very racist system.

    12. Who is Baby Monkey?*

      Kim Tallbear has an excellent book on this issue, Native American DNA: Tribal Belonging and the False Promise of Genetic Science.

      She has done many media appearances explaining why DNA tests suggesting indigenous ancestry meet neither the legal definition of Native American identity established by the US government and individual tribes’ policies (based on bloodlines/tribal rolls established in the 19th century), nor the tribes/nations’ broader understandings of this identity as defined by kinship ties.

    13. RagingADHD*

      The entire and only reason for tracking race/ethnicity on job applications is to monitor for discrimination.

      So, in what way has your Native American heritage or experience exposed you to discrimination in the past?

  80. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

    I just resigned to my boss & skip-level! Now comes the difficult part of telling everyone else. I get lunch with a few folks on Fridays (and occasionally other days) and I definitely can drop that I gave notice in the conversation (hopefully I won’t cry!), but everyone else I work with probably won’t know for a while unless they look in the calendar. So, I guess I should send an email out? Or let people know as they come talk to me? What have other folks done when they’ve resigned?

    1. ferrina*

      What’s the norm in your company? Go with that. I’d also give your boss a head’s up about what your plan is for telling folks (unless you think they’d do something like tell you not to tell anyone- then I’d just tell a few people, then tell my boss once the horses left the barn).
      Definitely tell folks sooner rather than later so they can get things ready for your departure.

      1. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

        I mean, folks who have left have been retiring folks. The most recent one I didn’t know he was leaving until yesterday, and he’s leaving Monday! So there isn’t really a “norm.” All the logistical stuff is going to be handled by the HR person, and it’s just a matter of transferring institutional knowledge to whoever is going to take over my work.

        I did tell the folks I have lunch with, and it looks like the whole team is going for a drink later. So maybe they’ll tell folks then, and possibly during the weekly status meeting next week, which will give them 2 1/2 weeks to transfer everything.

        1. ferrina*

          Ah. Yes, I think that’s a really good way to do it. I’d also send a formal goodbye email on your last day or next-to-last day. A message that says “thanks, I’ve loved being here, here’s how to keep in touch with me (sharing email addresses was pretty common at places I’ve been).

    2. Anonymous Hippo*

      I just resigned Wednesday, and I’m calling it my farewell tour LOL. So far I’ve told my boss and great boss, my boss’s counterpart in operations, and my two main work friends. My plan is currently to tell my direct reports and H.R. on Monday (one is on vacation this week, and wanted them told close to the same time), then from there do an announcement to the team at large, and then start approaching people I work with on a regular basis one by one. Rumor will likely reach them before me, but I want to still let people know directly. I have 7 weeks, so lots of time to get to everyone, but trying to prioritize by impact.

  81. EvalInputPlz*

    Need some self-evaluation advice!

    I was looking for a similar post in the archives, and I am sure one exists, but I couldn’t find one. If one does exist, please point me to it. Otherwise, please provide any helpful input!

    I had a rough, rough, stressful 2021. Four close relatives died, planned a 50th anniversary party at our house (under 30 people & outside), in-laws living with us for four months while one has concerning undiagnosed health issues, and I got pregnant/gave birth to our first child. I was promoted to a manager in Oct 2020 and was given my first project to run in Dec 2020 (pre-pregnancy/deaths, etc.). Well, because of several work-related factors surrounding that specific project, myself and management decided to combine the project with another, which took me off team-lead. No problem. I was still given additional responsibilities I would have otherwise not had if I was not a manager.

    Here is my issue. I feel like it have not met the expectations I set for myself this year, partially due to not actually having led a project as a manager, but mostly due to all the personal factors in 2021. I had to ask for help with tasks I was assigned, some things took longer than anticipated, and I did not complete everything prior to going on maternity leave (I am back at work now). I did make sure there were no loose ends, and there was great communication throughout in terms of ensuring deadlines were met one way or another. None of my managers stated I needed to work harder or was not meeting expectations. I do think it’s relevant to include it in my self-evaluation, however.

    How do I professionally incorporate my own views on unmet expectations/reduced productivity without getting into the nitty gritty or making it too personal?

    1. merope*

      It seems to me that while you might not have met your original expectations, you did achieve mastery of many important skills, namely: how to evaluate your workload and ask for help; how to adjust task deadlines and expectations and maintain clear communications about those changes; and, how to document processes and project statuses in a way that ensures a smooth transition of information throughout the organization. Those are pretty significant accomplishments, even if they weren’t the ones you had originally anticipated, and they are terrific skills to develop in “unprecedented times” like the present.

      2. Reba*

        I totally agree! you need to contextualize your performance in light of the challenges you faced. Of course, you’re not going to be writing about your personal life in the eval, but everyone has been going through the pandemic chaos in one way or another, and that’s relevant!

        I think being flexible, resilient, and communicative are standout qualities from what you wrote. As an exercise, I wonder if you could pretend you were writing about a friend or trusted colleague instead of yourself.

        I’m sorry for your losses, EvalInputPlz and congrats on your baby.

        1. EvalInputPlz*

          Writing from another point of view is smart. I am finding myself constantly thinking about my manager’s perception while figuring this out. That will definitely help. Thanks for the input and well-wishes!

    2. ferrina*

      I’m impressed that you are already separating A) What your company expects and B) What you expect. That is a very important first step.

      Another important consideration is how your self-evals are used. Usually it’s a starting place for raises. You want to be accurate, but don’t low-ball yourself on an eval because it can affect your reputation and compensation.

      I’d focus mostly on how you met the expectations that the company set for you, then somewhere acknowledge that there were certain goals that you had set for yourself that you were not able to accomplish this year (both due to company and personal circumstances) and you are looking forward to being able to XYZ next year. (always end on a high note. Both to remind yourself of how awesome you are and to remind the company)

      1. EvalInputPlz*

        Thanks for the advice. It makes sense to distinguish between the two in the evaluation itself.

        A note on the raises. We are on a step system for raises that max out on each band. You’d have to be promoted to make more after you max out (which just happened for me and is currently a non-issue). Basically, not getting to the next step is not an issue unless you are totally not doing your job e.g. not maintaining required education requirements/credentials. Even in those instances, I have seen management come to a mutual decision with the employee to leave employment rather than not provide a raise (at-will state). Our evaluations are more for our self-improvement and for the office to promote development.

  82. Anonymous for this cause location*

    This is sort of a legal question but I’m not really looking for advice, just clarification.

    I live in Indiana. My employer issues work laptops. It is expected that you will use one, and you are supposed to take it home with you in case of snow days (we are a public school). Maybe if you made a huge stink, they would let you use a personal computer, but I haven’t seen anyone do that. We do not sign any rental agreements for this equipment.

    We are liable for damage to our devices. I am a part-time employee with a device. If I were to total my laptop, it would cost around three weeks’ pay for me. To mitigate this, we are offered insurance from a third party vendor. I paid for the insurance this year, and it was more than I make in a day (roughly a day and a half).

    I’ve done a cursory search, and in Indiana there is a list of things you can do paycheck deductions for, and damaged equipment is not one of them–the interpretations I’ve seen say that it is therefore not legal. However, my employer does not charge us for replacement, repairs, or insurance through payroll deductions. It is either voluntarily purchased (for the insurance) or invoiced to you (for repairs and replacements). The computer techs have also told me that they are liable for any damages they cause while moving computers and equipment around in the course of their jobs.

    Is it a valid loophole to get around the prohibition by invoicing instead of deducting? I know none of this is ethical, but I’m trying to find out if it’s even allowed before trying to fight the ethics battle.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Not a loophole. They can’t deduct it, but they can ask for it.
      https://www.in.gov/dol/wage-and-hour/wage-and-hour-faqs/
      Q: Can an employer fine an employee and take it out of his or her paycheck?
      A: No. An employer is not permitted under Indiana law to fine an employee and deduct the amount from his/her pay. After an employee receives his/her full check, however, an employer may ask an employee to pay him/her back for loans, goods or services rendered to the employee or for damage to company property. An employer may terminate an employee and/or file a lawsuit for failure to repay these types of debts.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      Oops, i always forget websites get audited. Anyway, DOL for Indiana says no on deductions, but a clear and definite yes on able to charge you.
      from the dol site:
      Q: Can an employer fine an employee and take it out of his or her paycheck?
      A: No. An employer is not permitted under Indiana law to fine an employee and deduct the amount from his/her pay. After an employee receives his/her full check, however, an employer may ask an employee to pay him/her back for loans, goods or services rendered to the employee or for damage to company property. An employer may terminate an employee and/or file a lawsuit for failure to repay these types of debts.

      1. Anonymous for this cause location*

        Thank you, I’ve been trying to find this spelled out for months. Clearly I’m not that good at research.

        Do you happen to know if invoicing in this manner could be an infringement of minimum wage laws? For instance, if I were to total my device and pay it all at once, and that wiped out my entire pay for a pay period, is it a valid argument to say that I was effectively paid less than minimum wage? I’m assuming not, but iunno, maybe.

  83. Melody Pond*

    Alison addressed a question this week from a letter writer who was wondering how to approach interviews when she knows she can only take a job that’s at max 30 hours/week, has flexibility in scheduling, and is mostly remote. I believe Alison’s suggestion was to bring it up fairly early in the interviewing process?

    A few months ago I was diagnosed with a medical condition/disability that made a lot of sense of why I often struggle to work in an office (sensory issues, among others), and my diagnostic report specifically says that I should be allowed to work from home, to the extent appropriate for my job duties. My line of work may occasionally require a few collaborative meetings, but the vast majority of my line of work can typically be done remotely.

    I already work from home in my current job, but am starting to apply to other jobs. I haven’t been limiting myself to jobs that are specifically listed as remote-work, thinking that there may be a chance I can still get work-from-home as an accommodation.

    I’m wondering, though – does Alison’s advice I mentioned above apply to my situation, too? Do I bring up my need for remote work (and therefore my condition/disability) earlier in the interview process? Or only once I’ve received an offer?

    For what it’s worth, I was already debating disclosing my condition earlier in the process, just to ask for an accommodation in the interview process. Having the chance to review any standard competency-based questions in writing ahead of time, would help me a lot, as it’s incredibly difficult for me to properly answer these questions in a live, verbal setting, with a group of completely unfamiliar people – even when I’ve tried to prepare a great deal ahead of time. I usually can’t think clearly enough to address the actual question until later, when I don’t have an audience.

    1. not a doctor*

      I wavered back and forth on this, but ultimately, I think you should ask about remote work during the interview process directly, without mentioning your disability/prospective accommodation. You could, separately, also mention that disability awareness is important to you, and ask how they accommodate people with disabilities in their workplace.

      I think you should try to keep the focus off of your disability and prospective accommodation whether or not you ask for an interview accommodation, because not everyone on the hiring committee may be privy to that request, and (sadly) it probably won’t help you to draw too much attention to it.

      1. Melody Pond*

        I like that – asking about disability awareness. Thank you!

        How would one manage to keep the focus off of their disability and still ask for an interview accommodation? Not sure I totally followed/understood this part:

        I think you should try to keep the focus off of your disability and prospective accommodation whether or not you ask for an interview accommodation

        1. not a doctor*

          I mean, ask for the accommodation if you need it, but don’t mention or discuss it in the interview unless you have to (including by not discussing future accommodations you may need as an employee).

          1. Melody Pond*

            Heh, I just got off of a session with my therapist, and she made basically the same suggestion I think you’re making, and we were able to flesh it out in a way that made sense to me. I’m still not sure if it will work, but I think it’s worth it to try saying something like this before my interview:

            “I like to be prepared for meetings, and I like to target that preparation to business topics that will be covered, so as to use the time as effectively as possible. Would it be possible to see any of the more standardized, competency-based questions you’ll likely have for me? I’d of course welcome follow-up, dig-in-further questions to my answers, so we can have a substantial, informative discussion.”

            I can obviously wordsmith it out a bit more, but I think this can be framed in a reasonable enough way, that it won’t come off as a wildly inappropriate ask. And to be fair – this is getting a real glimpse of how I operate. I do like to be prepared for business meetings! And in the past when vague meetings have been put on my calendar, I have often asked the organizer for more details, so I can be better prepared. This is not that different from how I work in real life.

            And for that matter, maybe it would be useful to go the opposite direction as well, regarding my questions for them? Especially if this is a pre-interview email exchange, I can touch on some of the main questions I have on my list, something like:

            “And in case it would be useful to you to consider ahead of time, here are some of the main questions I have in mind, to ask you during our discussion: [question 1]; [question 2]; etc…”

            1. no!*

              I would not do this. Most places won’t give them to you if they are not giving them to others and it will look out of touch to ask.

    2. ferrina*

      In the letter, the writer was in a situation where she was being sought after and could be really picky.

      In your case, I think you should wait until later in the process. I agree with Not A Doctor- keep the focus off your disability and on the fit (if you are a skills fit, if they are a culture fit for you, and if the company is aware of disabilities). Definitely focus on whether they are a fit for you- do they appreciate you? are they open to their employees utilizing the working circumstances that work for them? When you do bring it up, bring it up factually (like other examples of pregnant folks asking about post-natal accommodations).
      Good luck!

      1. Melody Pond*

        I thought it was more that the letter writer could just afford to be really picky. I came away with the impression that the demand for her skills/experience was… average? But I haven’t bothered to go re-read the letter, so who knows. :-P

        Anyway – I don’t know that I’d say I’m in high demand, but I’m experienced in my field and the demand for my skills and experience is moderate-to-high enough that I can be at least a little picky. Also, I’m not desperate to leave my current job, so I can afford to wait until I find exactly what I want.

        I do think this is a good point:

        are they open to their employees utilizing the working circumstances that work for them?

        Because this speaks to a wider workplace cultural norm that does matter to me. A business that only makes grudging accommodations when they legally have to, is not going to be as fun to work at, compared to a business that enthusiastically creates space for different workers to operate in different ways that let the workers give their individual best. And that’s kind of the crux of the issue, isn’t it? Do you (an employer) leave room for your employees to have different needs and abilities, or do you treat your employees as if they are all robots with simple and identical requirements?

    3. 1qtkat*

      As someone who is neurodivergent, I would agree with the other comments made. I know the disability is critical for you in terms of getting accommodations, but mentioning the disability outright during the interview is not going to help the interviewers evaluate your skills and ability to do the job and it might give them implicit bias regarding your candidacy or put them in an awkward spot since it can open them up to liability regarding possible discrimination if you’re not selected. It’s similar to a pregnant woman going through an interview. Focus on your skills and why you’re a good match but ask in more general terms about their benefits and ability to grant the types of accommodations you will need to be successful in the job.

  84. An Onymous*

    I wouldn’t. I don’t think it would give you an advantage (it’s specifically not supposed to anyway). I think it’s wrong because you don’t identify yourself as Native American. You identify yourself as a person with some Native American ancestry.

  85. Lizabeth*

    Question about retiring early…

    I’m two years out from doing Medicare for insurance and the job is “not” that bad – the hours work for me, decently paid etc. I’ve been keeping an eye on job listings but nothing has really sparked my interest either remote, my current remote location or my state of residence. Been kicking around the idea of working for myself but haven’t settled on what to do yet.

    What factors should I consider for retiring early?

    1. Colette*

      Some questions I’d ask myself.
      1) If I’m not going to have a traditional job, what am I going to do with my time? (Start a business? Work on a hobby? Volunteer?)
      2) How am I going to have social contact?
      3) What about money? Can I live off your savings/any income I’d still have? For how long? What lifestyle choices would Ihave to make? Can I pay for medical care, clothing, a place to live, food, transportation etc.?

      It sounds to me like your biggest barrier is #1; you need to figure out what your life looks like if you retire.

    2. irene adler*

      Will retiring early short your Social Security check amount down the line?
      How successful are others who work for themselves in the industry within which you wish to work? Might find out how well this worked for others. Also might ask if they find working for themselves satisfying.

      1. Girasol*

        When I was making the same decision – quit at 62 or hold out longer? – we had been keeping spending records for several years so we knew our spending habits quite well. We considered a budget for big ticket items like home maintenance (new roof?), car replacements, and long term care. I read “Get What’s Yours: The Secrets to Maxing Out Your Social Security” and “Medicare for Dummies” and learned how very naive I had been about social security and medicare. We went to the investment company holding my 401K, asked lots of questions about retirement finances, and learned how to use their financial planning tools. I went to our tax preparer for more helpful tips. It was a hard slog through all that homework but having peace of mind about our retirement finances is priceless. If we hadn’t done it up front we would have had to learn every bit of it the hard way and there would have been nasty surprises.

    3. retired3*

      I retired early. Less SS. Not rich. No regrets. I wanted to hike; now I can’t. All you have is your current moment; there is no way to know the future. I fell into part time work I didn’t know existed and they pay an obscene amount of money for what I do. I would have a clear idea about what you are passionate about. For me it has to include some sort of service, which both volunteering and work provide. What if you have 40 years left? What do you want to do/be? I was fortunate enough to go to a funeral for someone who died at 104 when I was 50 and it helped me see there might be a lot of time ahead to enjoy. What is authentic for you? How do you be authentic?

    4. Assorted Ability*

      I retired early (40s) and I am bored out of my gourd!! All my friends still work. Travel is still mostly during school breaks. Also, I mega miss being productive. Sure I garden, and volunteer, but it is not the retirement that I thought it would be. I am ready to get back to work, not in the same high stress version, but the search for that has not been easy!

  86. Chirpy*

    Is it worth spending time applying to the only job that’s reached out to me? It’s something I have a passing knowledge of, and could probably do, but am fairly opposed to (think like a paper mill contacting a tree conservationist) and it’s part commission, which doesn’t sound great. Normally I’d skip it, but my apartment search is not going well and unless I make more money really quickly I’m likely to be completely out of luck in a few months (if I don’t find a place to live, I lose my current job anyway).

    1. ferrina*

      How desperate are you? I’ve definitely had to take what I could get, but I can’t tell if you’re at that point yet. How much do you like your current job? How flexible can you be in your apartment search? (can you rent a room in shared housing for a few months?)
      Taking a job you are opposed to will quickly get soul-sucking. Make that trade-off only if you absolutely need to.

      1. Chirpy*

        I mean, I hate my job and can’t afford the average apartment, which is why I was living with a roommate, but I’m losing the roommate and don’t have any options for other roommates, and there’s just so few cheap apartments available. Nobody does less than yearly leases around here, either. The job search hasn’t been going well and it’s to the point where I only have 2 months left to figure out where to live and less to find a job that pays enough that someone will actually rent to me.

        1. ferrina*

          Then yes, apply. Do what you have to do.

          I am so sorry that you’re in this situation. This really sucks.

  87. Plant Lady*

    What’s the best way to respond when your boss says they told you something important, but you’re certain they didn’t?

    As an example, we need to update customer records in a certain situation by doing A, B, and C. My boss went over this with me a few months ago, and I took detailed notes on it (I take detailed notes on everything). Today I found out we’re also supposed to do a forth step in some cases, and my boss was upset to find out I haven’t been doing it. They insisted they went over it when they trained me, but I’ve never seen the extra screen that they then showed me needed to be updated.

    I apologized and said I didn’t remember going over it and had no notes on it. This has happened a few times. I worry they think I don’t listen to them and am incompetent.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Confirm the instructions in email, or a project tracking tool, or anything.

      Also get some QA after the first chunk of records are done. If you have 1000 records to convert, do 50 of them, and then get somebody (your boss, anyone) to go over them and make sure you haven’t missed anything.

    2. ferrina*

      How often does this happen? If it’s very occasional, I’d focus on the future- “Huh, I haven’t seen this screen before. Okay, so the step is to do XYZ, correct? Great, I’ll definitely do that going forward.” Notice that hear you are also repeating and rephrasing- this shows that you are listening and internalizing what they are saying. You are also confirming that you are taking this seriously and will do this going forward.
      Make sure that you are engaged in this conversation. If you need to set aside your notes to converse, do that. Update your notes immediately after the meeting.

      You can also ask to have someone shadow you the first time you do a task. Share your screen/have them look over your shoulder while you do the task so they make sure that you understand it fully and can fill in any training gaps.

  88. New poster*

    I’m trying to figure out how to decide if I want a new job, and I can’t seem to get off the fence. I have a great job – the work is interesting, the people I work with are nice, and the schedule is flexible enough to suit my needs. But I saw another opening at my company for and applied for it, just to see. New position is a visible, leadership position. It will probably be at a slightly higher salary, but not more than 10% (if that) but would give better opportunity for advancement in the future. This work is interesting and would give me an opportunity to design my own processes, so it would be less routine than what I’m doing now. My real reservation is that my current manager is great — leaves me alone except when I ask for help, which is what I like. I do not know the new manager as he’s new to the company, but he has said he expects me to be in my office 8-5. (When I pushed back hard, he backed off to 9-4.) This is out of keeping with the company’s general flexible, WFH rules. It seems to me a red flag that might indicate (1) he doesn’t trust his employees and (2) he doesn’t embrace the new working world. (Also, I really, really like a flexible schedule with part-time WFH.) Otherwise, the work seems really interesting and important for the future of the company; probably with a manager that I knew, it would be a no-brainer. I know you all can’t solve this, but can you share some thoughts about how to make a decision and what you would do? Thanks!

    1. ferrina*

      Oof, I’m concerned that what this new manager wants isn’t in line with what you want.
      I’d be thinking about:
      – How much of an impact would it be if the manager isn’t flexible on WFH? Is it something you can live with, or would it make your life miserable?
      – How eager are you to advance? How long could you happily stay where you are?
      – How often do advancement opportunities come? Is this a once-in-a-lifetime, or is this something that you can pursue again in the near future? How long are you willing to wait for the next opportunity?

    2. Kathenus*

      My read is you had to push hard for a grudging acceptance of a small concession in an area that is important to you – flexibility in scheduling. That’s a big negative. If the increased salary and future promotion potential is worth it, fine, but it sounds like you might be going to work for a boss with a fundamentally different culture related to work hours than you would like.

    3. Lady Danbury*

      That’s a huge red flag to me, especially since it isn’t in line with company norms. It tells me that not only is he inflexible, but he either doesn’t know or doesn’t care about fitting in with the company’s culture. Even if you push for WFH (in line with company culture), I’d be concerned about him implicitly or explicitly punishing you for doing it. Does he have any current employees that you can talk to? As great as the role sounds, your manager can make or break your work experience. I would definitely be hesitant about making the switch.

    4. Kay*

      There are a few things I would be concerned about – in addition to the lack of financial benefit. How long are you going to have to tolerate this dynamic in order to be able to advance away from this guy? What kind of things do you think he will say about your performance – knowing your styles are very different?

      Personally, unless you are completely stuck in your current role and another opportunity isn’t going to come along for a very long time, I would pass.

  89. Awkward!!!*

    Looking for advice on how to handle a tricky situation where I benefit from arguably “unfair” scheduling practices!

    Background: I work for a medical staffing/temp agency in a clerical role. My employer both offers more traditional short-term temp contracts/open ended temp-to-perm positions, and per diem shifts you can pick up weekly in areas where demand (and thus staffing) changes a lot like COVID testing and vaccines. The open per diem shifts are announced via periodic emails, and it’s first-come-first-served who gets them. I will be the first to admit that this way of allocating shifts feels super chaotic and frustrating, especially when you miss out on shifts.

    At some of these COVID clinics primarily staffed with per diem employees, there will be employees that are always there on open-ended, recurring shifts at the request of on-site managers. This happens because some of the managers can’t be there in the clinic all day and need people they can trust to run things in their absence. I have had one of these shifts for months at one of the COVID clinics; I got this position because I picked up a lot of per diem shifts at this location and developed a positive relationship with the manager, so when the previous employee who held the recurring shift left that manager requested me as a replacement. I have additional duties like orienting new per diem employees to how this clinic functions, doing record keeping, and being the point of contact with other departments.

    The problem is, once some of the per diem employees figure out that I have a permanent shift here and that I’m getting “special treatment”…our working relationship just tanks. Sometimes they’re obviously jealous of me, sometimes they’re rude/standoffish to me, sometimes they spend all day complaining to me about the staffing agency (note for context: a lot of these per diem employees are young college students without a lot of previous job experience, and they don’t always handle things the most “professionally”). I don’t really know what to productively do about this. With some of the newer hires I can give them tips about how to move to the more steady positions but otherwise I’m lost and feel so awkward. Any ideas on how to diffuse these situations?

    1. Colette*

      It doesn’t sound like the scheduling practices are really unfair – yes, it’s unfortunate that the shifts are first-come-first-served, but you got your permanent shift because you proved to be reliable and built a solid relationship with the client, which is a good way to get a permanent shift.

      I’d say there are a few things you can do.
      – if someone is blatently rude, call them on it. “I’m sorry, I didn’t hear that, can you repeat?” “What an inappropriate thing to say!” “That language is not OK here.”
      – if someone wants to complain about the staffing agency, just shut it down. “I know the system can be frustrating, but it’s what we have”, “I need to get back to work, so I’m going to leave this here”, etc.

      But if they just are standoffish, that’s something they’re allowed to be. As long as they’re doing their job, they don’t have to be friendly with anyone, so that one I’d just let go.

    2. Kathenus*

      My initial thoughts probably aren’t appropriate or constructive on how to respond. So to be professional, maybe something like “yes I’m happy that my efforts to accept a lot of per diem shifts and perform at a high level were recognized by my manager with this consistent work schedule – hopefully you can achieve something similar in the future if you are able to do so as well”. Basically saying you earned this and deserve it, and they can do the hard work to get the opportunity themselves perhaps.

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      This… doesn’t sound like special treatment or unfair scheduling. It sounds like you earned it – you worked hard and built a good relationship with the manager. So now you’re getting the benefits – steady work and additional duties.

      Can you help your colleagues reframe the way they’re thinking about this? That it’s not “special treatment,” but something they can earn if they work hard and build relationships.

    4. RagingADHD*

      It sounds like they need a better orientation to your role. You aren’t getting “special treatment.” You are the team lead and trainer assigned to that site.

      Perhaps you should introduce yourself that way instead of letting them “figure out” their own erroneous conclusions about scheduling. This has nothing to do with scheduling in the first place. It’s a different role.

  90. lemon*

    I was recently told that I might have glaucoma, and I already have a lot of vision loss in one of my eyes. Aside from being personally difficult, I’m worried about the impact it could have on my job. I’m a designer, and just started a new position a few months ago.

    My question is: do I share this information with my manager?

    I don’t need any official accommodations (so far), but I am experiencing extreme light sensitivity, which means I sometimes need to wear sunglasses indoors. I also don’t have great depth perception, so I sometimes walk into walls or trip on stairs. I’m worried that without knowledge of my medical condition, people might start to think that I’m drunk or high at work (or covering up a black eye with the sunglasses). However, if I do share my medical condition, I’m worried that this might cause people to question my abilities as a designer. While I know that I can’t be fired for a medical condition, I just worry about being taken less seriously, as my department is kind of new to design and I’m already dealing with a bunch of folks who sometimes give me the impression that they don’t understand or value or have time for design.

    So, any thoughts? Am I overthinking things (definitely possible, this is all so new to me that it’s really thrown me for a loop).

    Thanks!

    1. ferrina*

      I’d split the difference- share the symptoms but not the cause. “Oh, I’m light sensitive, ignore the sunglasses.” “Oh, I’m a bit of a klutz, don’t mind me.”

      1. lemon*

        Thanks! This is the strategy I’ve been taking. Unfortunately, not sure that it’s being effective at stopping speculation. Fortunately, we’re only in the office one day a week, so it’s not like people are seeing me stumbling around in my sunglasses on a daily basis.

    2. Soup of the Day*

      This is tough. You certainly shouldn’t have to disclose anything, but wearing sunglasses indoors is uncommon enough that it might draw unwanted attention to you and have people speculating in the ways you described. I would maybe mention that there IS a medical reason without disclosing what it is – something like “Oh, I’m really sensitive to light, so my doctor recommended that I wear sunglasses indoors.”

  91. Temporarily Anonymous*

    Am I being paranoid? Please talk me down because I am having big stress.

    I have mentioned on here before that I took an unpaid leave of absence since my employer was being COVID unsafe and arbitrarily revoked my WFH (normally hybrid half-and-half home/office) when I asked for better COVID measures. The LOA runs out soon so I had given my employer 2 weeks notice that I would be returning to work in March. They have been hostile to any requests for adjustments to help me maintain COVID safety. It has felt to me like they want me gone and are trying to make things hard enough that I just quit.

    Today another thing happened that seemed very weird: I got an email from someone at my workplace who has my job title in their signature asking about access to a certain system. I am the only person with that job and this person did not work there before I went on leave. My boss did say they may hire a temp while I was gone but it is now less than 2 weeks until I return. It doesn’t make sense for a temp to only need this info now and not in the last 7 weeks.

    Am I being unreasonably suspicious in thinking this seems sketchy?

    1. Colette*

      It sounds like they’ve hired someone else to do your job – maybe it’s a temp, maybe they’re planning to let you go. I suggest you seriously job hunt – even if they’ve hired a temp, it sounds like you and your employer are seriously out of step.

      1. Temporarily Anonymous*

        Thanks. Yeah I have been job hunting this whole leave period but no bites so far. That is the only reason I’m going back (need the money). I plan to keep on applying for jobs. Unfortunately jobs I am qualified for with a living wage are rather thin on the ground for various reasons so it is taking a while to find something else.

    2. LDN Layabout*

      I would be very aggressively job searching in your position. Are you at-will or do you have some sort of workplace protection? Otherwise if you and management are still at loggerheads, it won’t be long, especially if they already have a replacement.

      1. Temporarily Anonymous*

        I live in Canada so we have some protections. They don’t have any real justification to fire me- no performance issues ever raised before this and firing someone for taking an agreed LOA is considered discriminatory from what I’ve read- so it would likely be cause for an unjust dismissal suit if they did. But obviously that would be a headache and a half. I am job hunting but it is difficult to find jobs with a living wage these days (and a lot of local employers are of similar mindsets to my boss wrt COVID in the area I’m living now).

  92. curly sue*

    Can anyone recommend a CV template for a teen? My 14 year old is starting to accumulate experience (volunteering, first aid training, etc.) that will be useful to have documented when she needs to start applying for things like camp counsellor jobs over the next few years.

    I looked through quite a few online templates, but the majority assume that you’re an adult with years of job experience, or have very strange formatting / places for things like Meyers-Briggs. They’ve been doing resumes in English class, but the format she was given there is the whole ‘power sentence about yourself, list all your skills’ kind of thing that was in vogue a decade ago.

    We’re also at the stage where she emphatically does not want mom breathing down her neck, so being able to hand her a useful template to fill out, that we can look over together afterward, would be the ideal situation. Word suite, or Google docs. Any suggestions?

    1. SpiderLadyCEO*

      I’ve never used a template! I just googled a few examples of “good resumes” and structured it myself. Mine just has my contact info at the top, then a list of jobs (or for your teen, volunteer experience) and nothing else.

      1. curly sue*

        She has an ADHD diagnosis, new during the pandemic, and if I say ‘google some resumes,’ she’s likely to open fifteen tabs, get overwhelmed, and play cookie click for the next half hour.

        I’m trying to navigate the tiny path that is providing enough guidance and structure so that she has a clear path forward, without abandoning ship or doing the work for her. (That and I’m in academia, and our CVs are a whole different kind of beast.) Hence, templates.

    2. Sunny*

      I don’t have a template but I hope this info helps :) One thing I had when I made my resume was an availability table! Since most jobs she’s applying for want to know what evenings + weekends she can work it helps to just have that in there. Although keep in mind that she should specify if this is her availability versus how many shifts she can / wants to take. She could maybe include a line in the top or just mention in the interview that she can only do three nights / 10 hours / whatever per week so that they don’t mistake availability with wanting to take the shifts.

      I think my teenage resume structure was something like:
      – My name / contact info, including my age so they knew I was able to work but was still in high school
      – Experience
      – Availability table
      – References. I just used teachers, family members, or family friends just to prove that I was reliable and would show up. I think my references were my best friends’ mom, a teacher of mine, and my dad.

      If she has any kind of work experience at all (even if it’s running something at school, making posters for an event, etc) I’d say to put it on there! I think for my first resume I had a “job” where I’d designed some posters for a charity event my dad set up, babysitting, and a paper delivery route I had done three years prior.

      I just typed mine up on Word and didn’t bother with fancy formatting. Good luck!

      1. curly sue*

        Thanks for this! I may end up compiling this and making my own template if I can’t find a good one for her.

        She has some school-related volunteering (club exec, assistant with little kids), community service volunteering, some certificates (St John’s Ambulance), theatre credits, a basic game design programming portfolio (Scratch, not github yet), and is building an art portfolio, so her experience types – as they should be at her age – are all over the place right now.

        1. fueled by coffee*

          I wouldn’t worry about fancy formatting – I made mine in word using regular bullet points and bold/italics. Fancy formatting might even become a pain as she gets more experience and has to keep adding/editing the document. At this age, her experience will of course be all over the place, and she can also always tailor resumes for specific jobs (I used to use a “Related Experience” section at the top and then an “Other Experience” section below; moving things into those sections depending on the job — e.g., all the childcare related work went to the top of camp counselor jobs, but stayed in the bottom section for retail).

          More helpful at this point would be to compile a list of all her experience, have her slot it into categories, and have her come up with 1-3 bullet points for items that are not self-explanatory. “First Aid Certified” is fine on its own; “Volunteer at Llama Animal Shelter” needs more explanation: how much time she spent (One Saturday or several hours a week for a summer?), what her duties were, etc. She may also want to include links to her online portfolios (which, wow!).

          1. fueled by coffee*

            Should also say that given the activities you list, useful header categories might be:

            Education (her school and Class of 2025 or whatever, maybe a GPA)
            Volunteer Experience
            Extracurriculars (theater could go here, or in its own section if it’s non-school related community theater)
            Certifications
            Skills (Computer, Art, etc., maybe with links to portfolios here, a foreign language if you speak one at home or she takes one for school (listed with a proficiency level like “beginner” or “intermediate”)

            And I second the idea from above of including her availability for shift-based jobs!

            1. curly sue*

              This is perfect, thanks so much!

              (Can I brag on her a tiny bit? She’s just started doing community theatre this year, first non-school-play audition, Midsummer Night’s Dream, and she got PUCK. I couldn’t be prouder.)

  93. MechanicalPencil*

    Does anyone have any experience with being hired after completing a Google Career Certificate (via Coursera)? I’m considering completing one, but want to make sure the investment makes sense.

  94. SpiderLadyCEO*

    I need help navigating my work’s DEI initiative.

    The short of it is that the program has become a bit too invasive. They regularly want us to share personal stories/struggles as part of the initiative. I’m a relatively private person, and going to educational events that they describe as being “emotional, vulnerable, and uncomfortable” at work stresses me out. They continue to increase in intensity/duration, and I’m floundering.

    While I support the goal of the initiative (a more diverse workplace) I’m really having trouble dealing with all the boundary trampling going on.

    1. DEI Programs*

      By pure coincidence, I posted a question about DEI programs and my skepticism around them at the same time you did, without seeing your question!

      One of my pain points is what you just mentioned – how DEI initiatives in workplaces claim that you can be “vulnerable” in discussions about diversity as if it there is no way that can result in negative repercussions for the employees.

      My take is that if workplaces are serious about effecting change, the efforts need to flow from *third party* trainings towards leadership/management. I think it is important that trainings are informed by minority voices, but those voices have to be external to the organization. There is a conflict of interest in burdening your lower level employees to provide emotional labor for your DEI efforts while opening them up to possible repercussions.

      1. SpiderLadyCEO*

        I saw your comment and type a whole reply which was eaten. Twice.

        I’m not so worried about repercussions from above – I just straight up do not want to talk about personal or itimate items at work, ever. My coworkers do not know a lot about me by my personal choice, and the idea of talking to them about issues that are very very intimate – my sexuality, for example, just makes me feel ill with anxiety. I’m just very private, I don’t want to share anything intimate. So to be put in a situation inwhich the point is to be intimate in vulnerable and we are required to do so stresses me out.

        I do see what they are trying to do, but I wish it was training led-and less sharing. Like, here is how to behave, and less “tell your story”. Or balanced in a way that those who WANT to tell their stories can, but that those who just do not want to do not have to. Instead of all of us being required to say very very intimate things. In a group setting.

        1. DEI Programs*

          I think it’s reasonable to not want to share those details. Being inclusive towards LGBT people is about not penalizing them for being LGBT, not an invitation to pry into their love lives, which never should have been up for public scrutiny to being with. That’s the whole point of this ugh.

          I was actually having a conversation with my friend the other day (not about DEI specifically) that a common outcome of being a part of almost any marginalized community is that people have less respect for your boundaries. This is what leads people to touch Black people’s hair without their permission, ask LGBT people about their sex lives, interrogate nonwhite immigrants about their family origins, sexually harass them, etc, where they wouldn’t do the same to members of a dominant group. Ironically it seems like this same dynamic is playing out in DEI programs.

          1. DEI Programs*

            Anyway, by way of more practical advice, I would push for hiring third party trainings and having them replace the vulnerability sessions. This is what I did in my organization with some success. HR found a third party DEI consultant to hire. We’re still yet to schedule a training though.

    2. ferrina*

      When done correctly, “vulnerable and uncomfortable” means being open to having your assumptions challenged and being aware of your privileges (whatever those may be).
      It doesn’t mean “share stories that only your closest friends know.”
      You should be able to opt to “listen and consider” the conversation. You might be able to get away with having an “appointment” or when asked to volunteer say “Nothing comes to mind at the moment, but I’ll jump in if I think of anything.” Be mildly boring- there’s nothing they can do about that.

      1. Jacey*

        No further advice for SpiderLadyCEO (sorry), but I think ferrina has done an excellent job laying out what the difference is between vulnerability that’s helpful for DEI efforts and vulnerability that isn’t. Unfortunately, the two kinds are often conflated with the result that people feel that if they don’t want to share about wetting their pants at their 5th birthday party, they aren’t doing their part to make the company more inclusive and diverse.

    3. ProDiversity-AntiSharingCircleAtWork*

      Going more anon than normal for this, to say ‘me too’
      There’s been a push lately in our local DEI group from programming that’s closer to a support group / untrained attempts at therapy than a practical discussion of work space initiatives to increase inclusion. This can be a problem. Unfortunately, trying to reaffirm the boundaries as an individual can get a lot of negative feedback about being unwilling to share / uninvested / etc.
      If there’s anonymous feedback options, definitely use them. If there aren’t, it may be worth seeing if you can find a more collective action? If multiple people address the organization with a request that there are events offered that are more practical and less emotional sharing-time, that may get some changes put in place.
      Other than that, I can only offer sympathy.

  95. DEI Programs*

    Am I the only one who thinks that workplace DEI programs are useless and only PR instruments? I’m skeptical that workplaces enact DEI programs because they really want to see any sort of change. From my experience, most DEI efforts are exclusively assigned to junior level staff and not to management, who I feel like actually are the ones who need diversity training because they are in charge of top level decision-making. Also, there is no effective way for staff members to advocate for inclusion without endangering their own reputation. For example, I can’t advocate for accommodations for neurodivergent employees while outing myself as a neurodivergent person in a company that isn’t yet inclusive.

    1. SpiderLadyCEO*

      This is exactly what I am talking about. I just…don’t want to talk about myself at all. I’m queer, neurodivergent and I genuinely just do not want to talk about me! Ever!

      The other part is that I don’t want to have my personal reckoning with race and priviledge with all the eyes of my coworkers on me. If they were giving us the resources and telling us to explore outside of work, I would be ok with that. But they are requiring us to do it on the clock, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

      Their goals are really admirable, but I wish we had clearer boundaries around this and that it was more workplace driven and less personal experience driven.

      1. DEI Programs*

        Yep this is the other thing. Acknowledging your prejudices is important, but just NOT your employer’s business.

        I think my larger problem with DEI programs is that there is something ironic about them being stewarded by employers. Companies primarily exist to maximize profits. There is nothing inherent in the structure of workplaces (particularly at the leadership level) to incentivize inclusivity and fairness unless it maximizes profits, in which case they will do the bare minimum.

        Workplace DEI programs also enable the notion that people should depend primarily on their employment status for societal benefits, which I think sucks. You what is inclusive? Universal healthcare. Free education. Free to low cost housing. Access to public spaces. And being able to access these things without worrying if your manager likes you.

    2. ferrina*

      My company has a good DEI program. They are working with an outside consultant to help guide the efforts. There are several different strategies in play- there’s trainings about what DEI means and how to be aware of it, there’s cultural celebrations (to build awareness and spotlight marginalized communities), and there’s an examination of hiring/promotion practices and how to counter familiarity bias.
      The key in this is that listening is mandatory, speaking is not. You are not asked to represent an entire community. If you want to share your personal experience, great. If you don’t want to, great. A lot of the information comes from research that is easy to find; the company just needs to look.

      1. SpiderLadyCEO*

        I love this “listening is mandatory, speaking is not”

        I wish we had something like that. Ours is more speaking is mandatory, listening is not. And I love your organization is having cultural celebrations! We are doing an OK job on that front – when Juneteenth was made an official holiday, it was added to our holidays.

      2. DEI Programs*

        I may need more context, but I’m personally not a fan of “cultural celebrations” being a facet of DEI initiatives. Partly because they are used in a performative manner in place of more substantial stuff, but they can be appropriative and othering more than being inclusive. But it depends how it’s implemented. As an example of what NOT to do, I’m Muslim American, and my last company sent out a corporate email about Ramadan and Eid, which are religious holidays, where they wouldn’t do the same for Christian traditions. It made me cringe.

        1. ferrina*

          Our celebrations are all led by a volunteer (truly volunteer, not voluntold) who is genuinely excited about sharing their stories and their culture. They aren’t trying to speak for a whole people- they are sharing their experience so that we can all learn a little bit more about the worlds outside our own immediate circles. It’s not someone summarizing the Wikipeida article on Ramadan (which happened at my old company).

      3. ProDiversity-AntiSharingCircleAtWork*

        I think getting experts involved is a key component to getting something like this to work. Some of the diversity initiatives in my company are useful and practical, but a lot of them are not. But I get the impression that’s because the folks leading them don’t have any training in what they’re doing, both on a practical ‘call to action’ sense and in a general ‘good ways to present things’ sort of way.

    3. Kathenus*

      I think there are certainly some DEI programs that are performative, but that it would be an incorrect overgeneralization to apply that to all of them. I think that our organization is doing a good job in this area, and our efforts involve staff at all levels in various working groups to come up with actionable goals and timelines to achieve. In my opinion there’s very rarely situations where “all X is good and all Y is bad” is true, since there are so many aspects of things that are specific and situational to different organizations and people.

    4. Nessun*

      My company has a very good DEI program, but in saying that one of the reasons I believe it is because there is full transparency on the team members, and they are from all levels up to and including C-suite staff. It’s very clear from their initiatives and their updates that there is work being done, not just lip-service, and there is also a clear reporting process for requests and further information. They are also clear that this is a long, well thought out process, and they invite comments and allow people to self-nominate to be included in the team.

    5. mreasy*

      DE&I initiatives that ask for non-voluntary work from any employees, particularly junior ones, are not useful. My company is pretty medium about this in general, but our main initiative is Employee Resource Groups, which can be started/proposed by any employees for members of an historically underserved group, and which are given budget for activities as well as for educational opportunities for the entire company. We’ve had some excellent speakers & great internal salary advocacy work spearheaded by these groups. And nobody is being asked to be “vulnerable” at work – gross.

  96. Uniformed Sloth*

    How do you handle a coworker taking a loud call in a break room/area? My lunch sometimes overlaps with Fergus’, but Fergus always facetimes his grand daughter (they live in the same household) during his lunch. After taking calls for four hours, I really don’t want to listen to his 3 year old grand daughter shriek and giggle at full volume while he eats when I’m just trying to get my mental fortitude together to handle the rest of my shift. Should I approach Fergus and tell him to chill with the loud calls, or bite my tongue and go out to my car to eat my reheated leftovers?

    1. Ginger Baker*

      Couldn’t you just ask him to use his headphones? It wouldn’t keep you from hearing the call at all but would probably cut out like 90% of it and (presumably) ALL the shrieking…

    2. fueled by coffee*

      Is most of the noise coming from the granddaughter’s end of the call? Could you ask Fergus (politely) to wear headphones?

    3. Chirpy*

      I just try very hard to not overlap with those people. One in particular is very punctual so I know when she’s usually in the break room, I have tried talking to her, but she just scoffs because she apparently can’t concieve that anyone might actually like quiet (she watches soaps on the break room tv). The phone call guy is more varied but I have a general idea when he’s most often in there. And I do eat lunch in my car alot.

  97. Never Gonna Be a Husband Or Father*

    Advice about how to speak up? I’m a woman engineer in a small tech company (~ 130 people). We’re defense-industry adjacent, and our CEO is former infantry. He really leans into the “take care of the squad” mentality. As he was signing off an all-hands retrospective today, he said he was so happy to have worked with the team for so long, watching the employees grow as people, not just in our careers, even watching us grow into husbands and fathers.

    Kay, cool. He signed out of the meeting right after, but I was really close to putting something in the chat. He previously has said he has a zero tolerance policy for discrimination and bullying (which he underscored in the only other time I’ve talked to him, a one-on-one meeting where he talks to each new hire), and in terms of putting your money where your mouth is, the company has senior women in technical roles, very generous maternity leave policies, and I’ve never felt disrespected by anyone.

    So would I send him an email? CC HR on the email? Ask HR first for advice? I don’t even know how to touch the heteronormativity part (and honestly I don’t think there’s a point) but I can honestly say I was stunned at how invisible I felt, and “please remember some of your employees are women too” is probably something he can learn to do.

    1. Reba*

      Maybe it’s the kind of place where you could just email him some feedback! But it seems more likely taking it to your manager or HR to pass back to him would be appropriate. Is there someone you trust who is maybe longer tenured or higher up than you, whom you could ask to raise it?

      “I appreciated CEO’s comments at the all-hands, one thing I noticed though is that he talked about ‘husbands and fathers,’ and I just wanted to flag that. As a woman on the team, remarks like that can make us feel invisible or forgotten.”

      I think cc’ing HR feels kind of aggressive, or at least rather strong for a first communication on the topic.

      Good luck!

    2. ferrina*

      I’m a fan of trying humor first- it would have been hilarious if you unmuted and said “Yep, I’m happy to be a husband/father!”

      In this case, I’d just email him almost as an fyi, since he wasn’t likely aware of what he said. say something like ” not sure if you realized but you said “husbands and fathers”. I don’t fit into either of those, and obviously I don’t think I ever will. In the future, can you change that to “partners and parents”?

      1. Chirpy*

        I’d still be upset with “partners and parents” because as a single, childless person, it still erases people like me.

        1. ferrina*

          You’re right- I’m so sorry.

          Let’s change it to “active, engaged people who accomplish amazing things both at work and outside of work.”

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      If it were me, I would mention to your boss that while you know the CEO intended well, his comment could be perceived as offensive to some employees who are women, non-binary or childless and that you personally found it off-putting as a women. If your manager is good, they should then raise it so that the CEO gets the feedback.

      Another option is to approach one of the senior women in the organization and mention the comment to them. I would ask what they thought of the meeting and then the CEO’s comment specifically and share that you found it exclusionary even though you don’t think it was intended that way.

      1. Lady Danbury*

        All of this!!! He could have just said grow personally and professionally or something like that. Expanding his statement to something more neutral such as partners and parents still excludes those of us who are neither and plays into the societal messaging that these are the only worthwhile personal roles/accomplishments.

  98. rr*

    How do evaluate jobs when you are, frankly, desperate to leave your current job?

    After months of rejections, I’m finally getting a few interviews, but they aren’t for remote jobs, which is, honestly, much to be preferred for a number of reasons. But while I’m not really expecting anything to come of them, if they did, it occurred to me that I wouldn’t really know how to evaluate things. It is largely, of course, the desperation. Which is honestly why I really applied to those jobs. Though they are, at least on the surface, actually decent jobs. I thought at the time that it would be ok. But really, the commute would be bad. Doable, but extremely stressful. On the other hand, because they are better jobs, they would come with more money, better benefits, possibly a chance to switch departments after a while/room for promotion, training, actual HR, an environment where I would expect it wasn’t ok to be openly nasty and angry and abusive (though maybe I’m kidding myself)…basically just about everything else you could want in a job. Or at least what I imagine you could want, since I’ve never had any of them. Except for the remote aspect.

    I don’t know if the problem is that I’m currently not well, or that I’m so burned out, but honestly, if I were offered a job like that I wouldn’t know what to do. I tell myself that if the only bad aspect was the commute, I should try to take it and stick it out for a year and see what I could get after that. I tell myself anything is better than my other job. And then I think I’ve stuck it out too long as it is – being miserable. Then I tell myself that it would be worth it long-term.

    Again, not there yet. But how do you evaluate these things? Of course, the other aspect is what if I say no and then wind up staying even longer at my current horrible job? It isn’t like I’ve been getting a lot of interviews for remote stuff either.

    1. ferrina*

      Some of the considerations I’d make:
      -How bad is your current job? How much damage does it do weekly/monthly?
      -How long are you willing to be at your new job?
      -How bad of a quality of life are you willing to put up with to leave your current job?
      -How hard will it be to job search again? You’ll be burnt out when you leave your job- you’ll need to recover. Job hunting can already be exhausting- how hard will it be for you?

  99. Buttercup*

    Are PIPs supposed to be private? I accidentally found out that a coworker is on a PIP when they shared their screen during a meeting and an email about it was pulled up. I stopped reading as soon as I realized what the email was, and they pulled up the window they meant to be sharing quickly, so it wasn’t up for long. I’m just not sure how to behave around PIPs because I’ve never worked somewhere that used them before. I have been acting as though I know nothing, is that the right thing to do?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      It’s certainly the polite thing to do. How they’re handled internally might vary, but generally they’re supposed to be between and employee and their manager and HR. If they share it themselves that’s certainly their prerogative, but this sounds like an accident so it’s a kindness to ignore it.

    2. DEI Programs*

      Yes they are private and you should continue acting as if you know nothing. I’m not sure why you would want to bring it up but they are usually confidential, plus you could embarrass your coworker if you brought it up or told other people.

    3. Anonymous Hippo*

      I think PIPs are supposed to be private.

      But speaking even more broadly, if you find out almost anything in that kind of accidently way I think it is probably the best policy to always pretend you didn’t.

    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      Treat the person like normal. Their performance feedback is none of your business. You obviously know so I would recommend being kind to the person generally as they are dealing with a good amount of stress I imagine, but beyond that just treat them normally as if you don’t know about the PIP.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Do you mean, is it okay to ask about it? No, that would be nosey and intrusive.

      Did you mean, should you commiserate and offer sympathy? No, that would be overstepping and might come off as condescending.

      Did you mean, should you treat them differently? No that’s mean.

      Should you tell anyone else? No, that’s gossip and opens the door to bullying.

      There is no course of action with a good outcome here, other than minding your own business.

  100. VS*

    Hello all, I am hoping to get some advice for my father (in his early 70’s but in relatively good health and still wanting, and unfortunately NEEDING, to work). He is an immigrant and owned/managed a fast food restaurant with his broth for yrs until my uncle got too old and was having some health issues. In 2015 they had to sell but my dad really wasn’t ready. He tried to buy another restaurant could afford (as he was unable to buy out my uncle) but with COVID and a couple other issues it was unable to happen. Now I am trying to figure out what types of positions I can help him apply for that are not too tech heavy. Unfortunately my husband and I are not yet in a position to help financially but hope to be able to do so in a couple yrs. Anyone have any experience helping somewhat older, immigrant parents get jobs? tia!

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Walmart greeters tend to be older adults and often low impact in terms of physical abilities and easy to get. Kinda risky with covid right now though. Call centers are generally awful places to work but don’t require much knowledge of tech, click the script read the script, click the response. More interesting jobs – what about museum docents? A lot are unpaid these days but some are still paid.

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      Could he be a manager at a fast food or up to 99-type restaurant? They’re always looking for good reliable people and he would get benefits and all that

    3. VS*

      thank you all so much! I don’t know how I didnt think about greeter type positions…I’m going to look at walmart and also Costco since that seems similar and definitely look into the other suggestions as we. Thanks again!

    4. Diatryma*

      I’d consider what he liked about the restaurant– was it cooking? greeting people? getting to know teenagers at the beginning of their careers and mentoring them? spending time away from the house and talking with coworkers?– and focus on that. Depending on what you figure out with him, you may help him find a job just for money and another position for fulfillment, like ‘cashier at the grocery store’ to stay fed and get quick social engagement, and ‘volunteer in the back room of the charity shop’ for hanging out with peers and training high schoolers in professionalism.

  101. A Simple Narwhal*

    I just got an email from my coworker addressed to the full team, saying she was just in a meeting with higher ups and they applauded our team’s work in completing three projects within a single day yesterday in response to what’s happening with Ukraine-Russia. She said she wanted to make sure the praise was passed along to “all those involved on our end”.

    The thing is – this was not a team effort, it was solely me. I took on all three projects and the rest of my team had zero involvement. So…would it be out of line to respond to the email (which includes our manager who is out this week and knows nothing of this) with something like “Thanks for passing this along! It was tough getting all three projects done in one day but I’m so glad it worked out and everyone is happy.” It just feels…weird? Like I’m tooting my own horn? I guess it’s just frustrating/weird/annoying/something I can’t name that the head honcho is noticing the effort and I’m not getting any credit, it’s instead being distributed in general across our team.

    My husband said I shouldn’t say anything, that it would be like asking for my own praise, and I can just mention it to my manager when he’s back next week as part of our general “how were things while I was out” discussion. I think he’s probably right – I didn’t take on all three projects for the praise or to be a martyr, I was just the only one willing/able to move their day around, but it was still a hard day and I went the extra mile goshdarnit. What do you think?

    1. Sea Anemone*

      Your husband is wrong. You are allowed to toot your own horn, and you are allowed to make sure you get the credit for things you actually did. I would make your proposed email even stronger, maybe something like,

      “Thanks for recognizing my efforts! That means a lot to me. It was tough getting all three projects done in one day but I’m so glad it worked out and everyone is happy.”

      And I would also bring it up to your manager as your accomplishment alone and ask whether the wrong impression might have been given to higher ups.

      1. ferrina*

        Agree- accept the compliment as though she meant to address it to you. When you reply, just reply to her (though you can CC your manager if you want).

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Also agree, claim your credit because you deserve the recognition.

        As an aside, I once complained to my husband that I was unhappy about not getting credit for something I did the lion’s share of work on. He said something like well everything’s a team effort, be happy with what you have, don’t rock the boat etc. (I also didn’t listen and made sure leadership knew my contribution.). About six months later, he was in a situation where he was publicly omitted from a project that was 90% his effort and he was so upset he almost quit over it. (He spoke up too and got his credit.) I did not say told you so, but I sure did think it hard in his direction.

        The moral is, receiving proper credit is important, don’t let anyone on the outside tell you otherwise, and please do advocate for yourself, you deserve it.

    2. Anonymato*

      Is there possibly a coworker who can correct this? I think that would be most powerful. If they can send an email “Thanks, Boss- just so you know, it was all A Simple Narwhal! They rock.

      Otherwise, I would reply just to the sender + talk to the manager next week.

      But, did the rest of team handle some of your stuff so you could get this done? Like, if they jumped on these 3 projects would it mean something else would get delayed? Because if that’s the case, I’d perhaps make the email “thanks for everyone holding the fort so I was able to redirect and be the person to handle all this” but otherwise I’d make it even stronger because your email does not make it clear you did it solo. Is it something you can wrap in as “Thank you for saying that. I am so glad I was able to move my other projects and get all 3 done single-handedly! Whew – still recovering here LOL I am happy to share my tips on how this was done for “best practices” folder (or next staff training / or whatever might work in your company).”

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Everything else I was working on didn’t have hard deadlines and just got pushed to today, so no fort-holding. Everyone else was working on their own individual projects, I don’t know if they couldn’t or just didn’t want to move things around. So I truly don’t think this was a group effort, I felt like an island yesterday.

        1. Anonymato*

          Yeah, then I would definitely ask a colleague to clarify that or I would send the sentence at the end of the paragraph, of course adjusted for your company/institution’s language. I think it’s important to not just step up but to step into the limelight as needed, otherwise it’s easy for others to not give you the credit where it’s due. I used to think it’s fine as long as my immediate boss knows I am doing good work/appreciates me, and that talking about team counts, but the longer I work, the more aware I am of the politics and that not tooting my own horn can have an impact later on (as in, being skipped for a promotion).

  102. Myrin*

    I have a quasi-interview for an internship on Monday and would love some advice about how to talk about my experience.
    (Note: This is not in the US and I’m not a native English speaker, so please bear with me if a procedure or process is weirdly named simply because I don’t know its Proper Name.)

    I say “quasi-interview” because I’m actually sure to get it (unless I ROYALLY mess up on Monday, I guess); this is unrelated to university, I simply cold-emailed them in December about possibly doing an internship with them and they were very receptive, so this is not part of a structured internship programme or anything, they’re doing this specifically for me (I’m very grateful and VERY happy).

    We are going to, among other things, discuss my “career” and experiences so far but here’s the thing:

    1) I have a master’s in a very closely related field. I also worked on a doctoral dissertation for a few years before ultimately dropping out of our PhD programme-equivalent, and that dissertation focused heavily on a pretty niche area and niche skills which this institution is in the process of strongly expanding into. However, it’s been more than two years since I dropped out (shortly before Covid hit, in fact).

    2) My work experience is a hodgepodge of part-time jobs (hence “career” in quotation marks above). I worked in a gym for five years (starting while still at school) and then changed to a local inn’s kitchen where I would’ve been seven years this June if I hadn’t quit last week effective 31st March. I also had my fourth retail anniversary three weeks ago. Inbetween all of those, I had several different fixed-term contract jobs at university, one for a year, several others for three to nine months. (Note: Until I dropped out, I had actually planned on staying in academia and that was the goal I followed up until that point; I hadn’t ever looked at other, even just academia-related jobs, which I now know was a mistake.)

    The woman I’ll talk to on Monday has an abridged version of this already – I sent it to her explaining who I am in my initial email, and she replied that she can imagine I’d be “a very good fit” for their institution.

    Now when talking about my experience, do I… really stress the university stuff even though none of it was particularly related to my specific degree (and, as such, relevant to the work this institution does) but at least it’s academic? Do I focus on my skills dealing with all sorts of people calmly, professionally, and to the best of my abilities (all relevant) which I developed really strongly thanks to my hospitality jobs? Do I try to steer the conversation to my half-finished dissertation and the years of researching and learning skills related to it (both highly relevant)? Something else entirely?

    I don’t know, on the one hand I fear that I’m going to fall short because I really haven’t done anything “impressive” so far and can’t wow them with my two-year-stint in a prestigious sister organisation of theirs or similar, and that my manual labour jobs are going to feel to them like I wasted a lot of my time or similar. On the other hand, I feel like I’m overthinking this and they really just want to get a feel for me (our virtual interview on Monday is literally called “Getting To Know Each Other”) which of course includes learning more about what I’ve done so far without any judgment. Thoughts?

    1. Reba*

      I think probably you are over thinking it a little bit :) I was going to write “it depends on what the role is” but it sounds like the purpose of the talk is in part to figure out what your role would look like. Since that’s the case I think that all of the things you mention in the next to last paragraph would be appropriate to cover! You have subject matter expertise, you have worked in academia so you know about bureaucracy, and you have a lot of experience interacting with the public. If there is an aspect of your skills or knowledge you want to focus on with this opportunity, lean on that part more (you want to gain experience in a non-profit or whatever this is? You want to use your dissertation research or get back into it somehow?). Perhaps the fact that you have had varied experience aside from the academic track makes you a more interesting candidate.

      Good luck! It sounds very cool and I think it’s great that you pitched yourself!

      1. Myrin*

        it sounds like the purpose of the talk is in part to figure out what your role would look like.

        You’ve got it exactly right! I have a general idea what will likely be part of the role (but it really is guesswork since I’ve never worked at an institution like that and I don’t know what all goes on behind the scenes in ones like it) and I’m sure they have some more concrete ideas already but yes, that will be a big part of what we’ll talk about.

        Thank you so much for your encouraging words. I honestly think I needed even just one outsider’s perspective to calm down a little and your comment has already achieved that, so thanks a ton, I really appreciate it!

  103. WhenIsRetirement?*

    Over the past year I’ve seen a lot of posts about asking in interviews how places handled the pandemic. Looking for advice here when you are on the other side:
    I am interviewing candidates over the next couple of days and I am afraid I will be asked that question. Because the answer is “poorly.” For context I work in a field related to/supports healthcare and pharma, it is privately owned, owners are GOP, and wanted to pretend none of this was happening. Company did not have a great reputation for workers before, is toxic, (although my section is great and we try to shield each other) and is generally believed to have a turnover rate of about 30%-40%. Also for context, whenever I am not too exhausted and burnt out myself, I am looking at job ads. I hope to have energy this weekend to actually apply to a couple and start networking, although I think I am starting to develop Stockholm Syndrome. Anyway, basic question – how do you answer prospect questions honestly? For the record I am pretty good at spinning things.

    1. Fabulous*

      I would say something to the effect of, “Honestly our company as a whole has not been the best during these times, but our team in particular tries to employ every health precaution that the CDC has recommended and we look our for each others’ well being.”

    2. Accountant*

      For what it’s worth, if I asked that question I wouldn’t be looking for the interviewers opinion or value judgment, I would be interested in what the company actually did, logistically, and why if that was relevant / the interviewer knew. Just like anything else, the candidate can make up their own mind as to whether it was well or poorly and how much.

      But really, it sounds like you have a lot of other issues with this job! What would help you feel energized enough to spend, idk, 30 minutes a week looking at job postings?

    3. Sarra N. Dipity*

      Be completely honest about how your company is handling things. Don’t include your opinions – just facts. Consider how someone would feel if they were, for example, living with someone who had health conditions that made them extremely vulnerable to Covid complications… and then showed up at work to find that there was zero distancing/masking/etc.

      1. Alice*

        +100
        I’m sorry you are in this situation but in the long term it’s not in your interest to hire someone who is going to leave asap because you spun the truth on this topic.

      2. ferrina*

        Yes, this. Just the facts. Allow candidates to draw their own conclusions from there.
        Bonus: candidates will self-select out or in based on that information, and your company is more likely to end up with the candidate that they deserve.

    4. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

      I’m in this exact situation, since we’ve been back in the office unmasked for… a lot longer than other places. (I made the decision to come in [masked] fairly early because I live by myself, very far away from my family, and had very very little human interaction, and that was Not Good for me. But there was pressure from higher-up to come in starting around August 2020.) People generally haven’t asked that question because the answer is fairly obvious just by looking around the office, but when they do ask, I generally am pretty honest with them about it. State the facts and you should be fine.

  104. Chidi has a stomach ache*

    I’m curious to get some other takes on this: I was invited to be a finalist for a job in higher ed that I was really interested in. They shared the salary band when they invited me for a first round interview, and it was lower than I wanted, but given my interest in the job I pursued it anyways.

    When they invited me as a finalist, they told me that they had set the salary for the job, which was at the bottom of the original band — less than I am currently making, and would require me to move from my current 10mo contract to a 12mo contract. As much as I wanted this job, I wasn’t willing to take a salary cut that significant for it, especially for what is technically more work. So I politely withdrew my application.

    Since then, a lot of people have suggested that I should have gone on the finalist interview anyways — and then tried to see if they were actually willing to negotiate if they gave me an offer. I thought that would look like a bad faith move not to take them at their initial word about the salary, and kind of a waste of my time if it turned out they wouldn’t negotiate (and in my experience, higher ed is rarely willing to negotiate). Thoughts? Did I miss out on an opportunity?

    1. Fabulous*

      It’s possible you missed out. Did you mention the salary when you withdrew?

      Something you could have said at the time may have been, “I’m so excited to be invited as a finalist, but before we proceed, I have to be honest that I’m disappointed to hear the salary is set so low; that would actually be a pay cut for me. I was under the impression that the salary could go up to X, is there any room for negotiation?”

      1. Chidi has a stomach ache*

        That’s actually what I ended up doing, using a pretty similar script to what you wrote here, and I was told there was no negotiation. So I honestly don’t think I made a mistake, which is why I’m surprised so many of my friends think I should’ve gone on the interview anyways?

        1. irene adler*

          Maybe your friends figured employer would be so wowed by your interview they would gladly hike the salary to get you on board-to hell with the “no negotiation” statement/policy.

          I think you are correct in taking the employer at their word.

        2. Fabulous*

          If you did ask about negotiation prior to withdrawing, then yeah, I don’t think you missed out. Jobs, however good they seem on paper, are rarely worth a significant pay cut.

    2. Colette*

      I think you did the right thing. There is no point in wasting their time – or yours – when you’re that far apart and there is no room for negotiation.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      They were transparent (which is what everyone asks for) and you used that information appropriately. You were right to step out.

  105. Fill in your own damn forms!*

    Half work question half relationship question here – how much help do people typically expect from their spouse/give to their spouse on work stuff? My partner is…not great at admin stuff. But I only realized how not great when they started a government job that has endless confusing forms to fill out. At first I was occasionally answering a “what do you think they want here?” type question but now I’m finding myself spending actual time filling out these forms and sometimes even sending emails from my partner’s work account to get clarification. I see that this aspect of work comes easier to me and that my partner gets visibly flustered and stressed when dealing with confusing admin/bureacracy. But also – I deal with enough of this in my own job and sometimes I just don’t feel like doing someone else’s. Does this make me horribly selfish? Normal? Is my spouse asking too much or is this typical?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh, my ex was absolutely terrible at the self-evaluation part of annual reviews. And I tried and tried to help her, had her tell me stuff while I wrote things down, tried to ask her leading questions to get her to reflect on her accomplishments, etc. It was awful for our relationship, and I don’t think that in the long run it really helped her career much.

      I think your situation of dealing with form avalanches might even be worse – because it’s every day, not just once a year. Your spouse is going to have to learn to deal with this stuff in order to be successful in their job. They’re going to have to ask coworkers and managers for help with this stuff, not you. Nobody is born knowing how to fill out form XB37/82J-9; they all learned from someone else. I think you need to wean them off of your support pretty quickly.

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      Eh….what??? It’s fine for your partner to be confused by admin stuff, but they need to be the one to actually do the work and to seek help from people at their job. I would stop what you’re doing immediately and set some new boundaries. My husband and I bounce ideas off of each other on how to solve problems at our jobs, but I would never dream of actually touching his work or vice versa.

    3. TEBOG*

      This seems like way too much to me. Sometimes I’m ok with discussing my partners work questions, but I have to draw the line sometimes when I feel like I’m being asked too much. If you’re not careful, this can build resentment and be really bad for your relationship. I’d say that you should tell your partner you won’t be filling out any of their forms and if they ask too many questions, just say “sorry, I have to get back to work/I’m relaxing right now and don’t want to answer more questions.”

      Your feelings are totally valid, and I understand wanting to help your partner with these things, but in the long run it will be better for your relationship to stop this now.

    4. Reba*

      Oh no, absolutely not. Nope. Would not do this. Sheesh.

      There may even be stuff in there that it’s not even appropriate for them to show to someone outside the agency. Come on! They need help but it can’t be from you.

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        THIS! Never ever would I touch my husband’s work stuff and vice versa. Nope, nope, nopeity nope nope

    5. Ginger Baker*

      Not typical, not selfish to push back (the company hired your SPOUSE, not you…they definitely should be doing their own job and reaching out to *their* coworkers when needed). Yes, sometimes we ask friends or family a *quick* work question (“you work in accounting, is it normal for me to be asked to fill out this form W9?? Oh, it should usually be a W4? Thanks, I will ask whether they meant to send me this…”) but for like 98% of things, work questions should go to work colleagues.

      I know it can feel blurry when we are working from the same [home] space despite not working “together”, but boundaries are indeed your friend. (I say as someone who does go help my mother out with Tech Assistance probably once every week or two BUT only for things that are in fact VERY quick (usually a printer issue, since she has mobility issues so doing the kinds of physical checks are hard for her, or maybe a “where the heck is the “convert to text” option for this word table??”) – and anything that starts to take more than a quick minute, I redirect her to call HER Tech Support folks in her office. Because they are the appropriate people to deal with her laptop issues NOT me.

    6. Sarra N. Dipity*

      You having access to his email at a government job might actually put his job in jeopardy. You need to maintain boundaries, and he needs to get help internally.

      2. Mint Kat*

        This. He should not be giving you access to his work email – this is a firing offence and a security breach!

    7. Spearmint*

      My partner is the same way, and I have occasionally helped her with these things. But while it’s understandable to want to help, I think in the long run people who struggle with these sorts of things need to develop the skills (practical and emotional) to handle these sorts of tasks, and they won’t if their hands are held too much.

    8. The Prettiest Curse*

      I’ve never had my husband help me with anything work-related, ever. I think he asked me how to do a couple of quick things in Excel back when he was working (he’s now retired), but doing things that were an inherent part of his job? No. If he’d ever asked me to do what your husband expects you to do, my answer would have been the quickest “no” ever, because my own job is time-consuming enough.
      You are not being selfish in not wanting to do bits of your husband’s job for him. You are being entirely reasonable. It’s his job, not yours!

    9. DisneyChannelThis*

      Atypical. If he cannot fill out the forms for new job, is he going to be able to do the work for new job? Government jobs tend to create forms like breathing, everything is a form.

      In a relationship sense, you already work and have your own stuff to do. Time together should be benefiting both of you, not you doing his homework.

    10. HR Exec Popping In*

      I had to have this conversation before. It is there job, not yours. If they can’t do part of their job that is not your responsibility. They need to be able to do that annoying administrative stuff. They are getting paid to do it. It is their responsibility. If they can’t do it then they should find a job (or retire) where they are able to do the full job. The only exception is the occasional question. But you should not be filling out their paperwork or sending emails on their behalf.

    11. Decidedly Me*

      Neither of us do the other’s work – though we support each other in other ways. We’ve given advice to each other on difficult team member situations, been the “audience” for a presentation dry run, and have answered the odd question on “how do you do this on *insert common work software here*?”

      What you describe is very, very odd. I can’t imagine ever emailing my partner’s coworkers on his behalf or vice versa.

    12. AcademiaNut*

      That’s way too much!

      If you’re actually doing part of the work your spouse is being paid to do, you’re being asked to do too much! Normal spousal help would generally be in the realm of advice/sounding board, or stuff around the periphery of the job (making sure they wake up on time to get to work) not doing their job for them.

      Also, sending emails from your partner’s work email on their behalf, in a government job, is the kind of thing that could get him fired.

    13. RagingADHD*

      I help with stuff like applications or if they did self-eval, I’d help with that.

      If I have to word a particularly tricky email to navigate a work-politics situation, my husband will listen and advise. He also occasionally listens to me read passages of work I’ve written, to see if it makes sense or to let me brag if I’m proud of it.

      The dividing line is that none of these tasks are work someone would get paid for. It’s personal support.

      He does zero of my actual work tasks, and I do zero of his, because I don’t work for his employer, and he doesn’t work for mine. We aren’t getting paid to do each other’s jobs.

      I think your spouse is overstepping to a very high degree, (or conversely, you’re enabling to a very high degree) and they should be getting help from someone who gets paid for it.

  106. duckling*

    I’m currently applying for jobs, and one listing specifically asks for people with diverse lived experience, such as POC, LGBTQ+, etc. I’m LGBTQ+ and disabled, with a pretty severe hearing loss (but with hearing aids / implant so I tend to manage just fine irl or over headphones and most people don’t notice.) I’m TERRIBLE with phones but that shouldn’t be relevant to this job. Here’s my problem: everything I have ever been told about applying to jobs with a disability has basically boiled down to “never ever ever disclose unless and until you have to, and sometimes not even after you have the job.” I’m really struggling with whether to mention the hearing loss or disability in general in my cover letter as a means of diversity, because unconscious bias is a thing and disability is pretty much the only diversity option that actually does potentially affect one’s ability to do the job.

    This isn’t a Dream Job or anything and I’m definitely applying to many many others, but I don’t know what to do. The disability angle could make me stand out as a way to bring new perspective to the team’s approach, but it could also make me stand out for negative reasons when there are likely plenty of able-bodied applicants whose skills and resumes are on par with mine or better. What should I do?

    1. Sarra N. Dipity*

      Are you comfortable with disclosing your LGBTQ+ stuff and leaving your disability information for later in the process (interviews, etc.)?

      1. duckling*

        That’s occurred to me too, but hearing loss is a major part of who I am and how I see the world, and it kind of feels dodgy to celebrate diversity in one area of my life while ignoring the part that affects me much more immediately on a day to day basis. But then I run into the same issue as above of whether honesty to myself is more important than… you know…. a shot at being gainfully employed….

        1. Sarra N. Dipity*

          That makes so much sense. I have a friend who is in a similar situation (job hunting, major hearing loss [hearing aid on one side, CI on the other], but not LGBTQ+)… I will reach out to her to see if she’s got any relevant advice!

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      It’s pretty tough to say in general because I know it varies a lot with the employer. However, I used to work at a small, social-justice focused nonprofit where there was a really active focus on diversifying staff, and people on hiring committees would actually get very excited when people disclosed these kinds of things in their cover letters. It would definitely help people advance from the resume stage to the interview stage because there was a big focus on making sure we were interviewing a group that reflected the diverse experiences of the constituents we served. I don’t think it would have helped someone secure the job itself as that was very much dependent on interview performance, but it absolutely made cover letters and resumes stand out.

      I don’t want to tell you go ahead and disclose necessarily because it absolutely can be a huge minus with some employers, an that’s absolutely a risk. But I just wanted to share that there are some out there where it can be considered a plus.

      1. duckling*

        That’s reassuring to hear. This particular job isn’t really social justice-related, but it is in a field that tends to be fairly accepting. This is definitely food for thought.

    3. ali*

      I always disclose my hearing loss (I’m also bimodal), partially because a lot of what is on my resume is going to tell them I have a hearing loss, but also because if a company is going to treat me differently due to my disability, I want to know it up front. I don’t mention it in my cover letter unless it’s relevant to the job (like I just applied for a job where it’s directly relevant), but I have a blog about my cochlear implant journey and I use that as a writing sample, so I’ll say something like “In my personal blog about my hearing loss, I choose to use a very informal writing style, as you can see here , but I’m also well experienced with professional writing as you can see here .”. I make the disclosure relevant. If it’s a phone interview and I struggle with the phone (I don’t anymore thankfully), I will say upfront when scheduling the call that I have hearing loss and may need to ask you to repeat yourself. If they say no to that or if the person I’m interviewing with gets frustrated by accommodating me, that tells me all I need to know about working there.

    4. BRR*

      I wouldn’t. Both because of potential discrimination and employers aren’t legally allowed to consider it anyways (not that it isn’t extremely common anyways).

  107. Anon career changer*

    Data analysts of AAM, I’m trying to get hired for a data analyst role and am wondering if I have the qualifications to do so without going back to school. I’d like to hear your thoughts.

    I am pretty advanced with Excel and have *some* experience querying databases and setting up reports in business intelligence software. I took a couple of stats classes in college, but it’s been 5 years since I graduated and in practice I’ve only used descriptive statistics on the job. I have some knowledge of inferential statistics and data modeling on a broad, conceptual level, but I’ve never actually used them myself. I also know a little python, but I haven’t really applied to any major projects at work or in my own time.

    Is this enough to get a decent paying data analysis job? Or would I have to go back to school? The job ads I’m seeing seem to want candidates with more technical skills than I have, even for entry level roles, but I don’t know if those are the bare minimum you need to get a data analysis job or if they’re describing their ideal candidate but would be willing to hire someone like me if they didn’t get anyone better.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can you take an at home course? Complete some of the free MIT courses or similar as a start then see if you can get a certificate or other qualification through something? Data roles usually ask for a link to your github to see examples of what you code these days. Database stuff –> SQL skills should be easy to do. Python you can just expand.

      I’d still apply to the job but be upfront in your cover letter about what you do and don’t have experience with, it’s okay to mention that it’s a jump in career roles and you’re in the process of learning XYZ still. I think you’re going to be way more likely to get the jobs if you have a little more skills to back it up. Coding is more widely taught these days so you’re competing against people with more coding experience. Your angle of having more background in other things can be turned to an advantage maybe.

    2. Bobina*

      I dont think you need to go back to school, but as someone in an adjacent field, improving your technical skills (or your ability to talk about them) will definitely be a requirement. Things like SQL, python, R, all the business intelligence tools etc are more on the basic side that many companies will expect, so I’d focus on brushing up on those to get to at least a decent basic level that you’d feel comfortable putting on your resume.

      The statistics and modelling knowledge will probably be a nice added bonus that I would heavily emphasize in a cover letter – even if you dont use it regularly, its the kind of knowledge that can make you more valuable in a role like this.

  108. Contractors*

    Hi! I left a state government job to try freelancing and being a contractor a year after the start of the panini. Still in the same field but very different work and I love it. The only issue is that I miss stability and that very clear growth of moving up. I do want to continue contracting for another year but thinking I’ll go back to state government or public health again for that stability. I don’t love it but at 30 stability seems to be more important than fulfillment in some ways.

    Has anyone gone from contractor/freelancer back to W2 or traditional career work? Did you have trouble getting a role or explaining why you’re going back? Or even explaining switching back to your old area of your field? What was it like for you?

  109. Tall Engineer*

    I landed a new job that I started last week at somewhere that I’ve been wanting to move to for a while. The backstory is that I worked there for several years part time as an undergraduate. My new role is working under the same person I did back then. About 8 months ago, I applied for a similar role at the same place, working under someone different. I was having a Bad Time and really didn’t perform well in the interview – I was extremely burnt out from my previous job and just really didn’t do well. I ended up taking another role to get out of the Bad Job before my current place gave me their final decision, but I’m sure they would have declined.

    My question is – should I make any kind of attempt to explain why my interview went so badly? I wouldn’t go out and make a speech about it or anything, but if it comes up, is it fair to explain that I was just in a bad spot? And how should I repair the opinion of the person who interviewed me? We never worked together before now, but he’s a peer to my current boss and generally has a lot of sway. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

    1. Purt's Peas*

      Don’t bring it up! It really isn’t going to matter, and you likely did better than you thought. Just do good work now.

      1. KateM*

        And remember that it may always be that your Burnt Out Day was their Bad Headache Day and they could just barely fix who did best and won’t remember anything else.

    2. Reba*

      When you have a chance to interact with this person, I would just try to make a better impression this time around. Hopefully your long history and the ongoing quality of your work matters more than an interview! (They probably aren’t thinking about it as much as you are.) I wouldn’t bring up your interview performance proactively, and I doubt they will either, but if it does, I would try to strike a tone that is candid without TMI, and still keeping it positive, like “yeah, unfortunately I don’t think I was at my best at that interview, but I’m glad I still had the chance to join Company with my current team” etc.

  110. Dragonfly7*

    If you moved from a position where technology troubleshooting was part of your job to one where it made up most/all of your job, how did you do that in terms of translating those skills, developing new ones, etc.?
    I would like to move out of a position where my favorite part is helping our customers, especially with technology questions, which makes up about 20 percent of how I spend my time. I have one reference who can particularly accurately back up what my skills are, plus some entry level courses in IT support. I am unfortunately unable to take the pay cut that would come with getting an entry-level IT position in my current workplace right now, and my applications for the ones requiring 1-2 years of prior experience haven’t resulted in interviews so far.

    1. Panda (she/her)*

      I would think about what skills are important for the technology troubleshooting you’ve been doing, and focus on those. Did you have to interact with customers as you solved their problems? Did you have to communicate and coordinate with a team? Did you need to use critical thinking or research skills to solve problems? Did you need to write manuals or policies related to troubleshooting? Etc.
      Depending on what field you’re looking to get into, perhaps some independent learning or credentials like AWS, Azure, BICSI, ITIL, IT project management etc would also help you stand out from true entry-level. The IT field is really shortstaffed at the moment (at least in my area) so many places are hiring people with limited experience and training them.

  111. SavannahSky*

    I found myself late last year in charge of a high visibility project that saw us partnering with a third party to offer a service for our customers. After months of negotiations, our COO decided that the customer should have some skin in the game and we would only pay 50% instead of 100% of the fees. The vendor didn’t agree with this move and wanted to pull out of the project if we went that route. The vendor offered to pay the other 50% on behalf of the customer.

    While this sounded like a great compromise, I didn’t have the authority to make that call without waiting weeks to go back to the COO, which would delay the project start. My manager stepped in and accepted the vendor’s proposal, saying since it didn’t cost more, he would make the executive decision to go forward. While I ultimately see it at as win for our customers, I had a sinking feeling about the decision as management is not happy about unapproved changes.

    Months later, we’re about to launch and management just found out about the change. My manager does not remember that it was his call to move forward and pulled me into a meeting with other higher ups asking what happened and why we weren’t following what had been approved. I feel like I’ve been thrown under the bus in this response and it’s very frustrating.

    My manager and I have a good relationship, so I feel like I should bring it up, but I’m not sure how to in a tactful way. Ultimately, my name is tied to the project and any fallback will hit me. I recognize that I should’ve informed the higher ups earlier, but it’s a gray area on who communicates these decisions up.

    Any feedback on how to proceed? Or word tracks on what to say?

    1. Sarra N. Dipity*

      If you have an e-mail chain here showing that the manager approved it, now’s the time to share it.

    2. Reba*

      Oh no, you don’t have a record of the manager decision? What about just in your project notes? Were you able to explain to the other higher-ups?

      With your manager, maybe a conversation about exactly that gray area and how to handle communicating decisions better in future would be a place to start with this cluster.

    3. ferrina*

      Answer clearly and matter of factly- “As I recall, you and I discussed and ultimately you decided to move forward this option. I believe the reason for that was XYZ.”
      Simply state the fact. If your manager is willing to put you in front of the higher ups to explain “your” decision (rather than speaking to you 1:1 first), then you can certainly state that your decision was to discuss the matter with your manager and follow their directions.
      Don’t use phrases like “threw me under the bus” (though that’s totally what your manager did). Simply stick to the facts of what happened- that should be more than enough.

    4. Purple Cat*

      State the facts. “Manager, you and I discussed topic on XX date and you made the decision to move forward”.
      Bonus points if you have an email you can forward back to him.

  112. Intl anon*

    Seeking advice on how to reply to a recruiter:

    I’m in a mid level position and just got contacted by a recruiter for the first time ever. It’s an external recruiter so he gave a short spiel about the company that’s hiring but didn’t name them. Would it be ok to respond asking what company it is and what type of contacts this position would work with? Basically because I’m in an international field that sometimes overlaps with defence-type work, but I’m not interested in going to a defence contractor so I’d rather find that out before agreeing to a phone call. Or is the norm just to agree to a brief call and ask my questions then?

    1. Accountant*

      I often ask recruiters if they can give me specific pieces of information before talking on the phone, but they do frequently defer. In this case, though, the simplest thing to do is tell them what your hard limit is and then ask what the industry/company is.

    2. Sea Anemone*

      You should not ask what company it is. It’s common for external recruiters to withhold the company name at first. You can ask whether they handle defense contracts and state that you are asking bc you are not interested in doing that work. That kind of thing just makes sense bc you want to make sure you are interested in the position before taking up both of your time. Likewise, you can ask what city/state it’s in just case relocation is involved.

      If they sent you a job description, you can sometimes answer all your questions by googling phrases from the job description, but if you do that, keep what you learned to yourself and don’t reveal that you know the name of the company. Recruiters are very sensitive to that sort of thing bc it’s very rude to go around a recruiter and apply directly, and they might wonder if that is what you are up to.

      1. Intl anon*

        Thank you! I took your advice of googling key phrases and was able to identify the company and find the full job description… it’s not defense contracting but the company has VERY bad reviews on Glassdoor, so I’m going to politely decline with the recruiter.

  113. ThursdaysGeek*

    After the discussion earlier this week about Comic Sans and ableism: not liking something that is actually useful for people with certain disabilities, has there been any self-reflection about our own blind spots and prejudices? Was there any temptation to dig in to the position that Comic Sans is unprofessional? Does that lead to any empathy towards co-workers who might have their own blind spots, who also hold on to their positions? The co-workers who have horrible beliefs about x, y, or z – maybe it’s not just because they are horrible people?

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      I personally think we are a combination of good and bad – and other people can often see my bad much better than I can see it myself. And the Comic Sans discussion made me see that it is easy to hold a position that hurts other people, without even seeing it. I try to give co-workers some slack, believing they also can’t always see what appears to be so plain to me. I hope my co-workers give me the same grace.

    2. RagingADHD*

      This really feels like you are not trying to start a discussion, so much as make a heavyhanded point in a very kindergarten-teacher tone.

      Why not just state what *you* learned? I’m sure others would join in if you did.

  114. Teddy Ruxpin*

    I work in a desk-based finance job which has been almost entirely remote due to the pandemic and we are just now getting around to the discussion about return to office and a ‘hybrid’ work model. I read an article recently about how unsettling the reality of hybrid working can be for employees and how you effectively have two workplaces, never fully settled in either. This is how I feel! At the height of the pandemic I would go in one day per week when everyone else was fully remote and now we’re looking at going back to the office and formalising this arrangement…well I kinda don’t want to. Because of the type of work I do I can be picking through finance spreadsheets and paper files for hours at a time and it can take a while to get into a rhythm with my setup….only to have to bundle it all into a bag, drive it to the office, get situated there and then work a few hours before going home and having to lay everything out again. On the flip side I do enjoy the social interaction at the office when I am there, so I’m here to ask if anyone has tips on how to better handle hybrid working? I actually dread my in-office days, well not being in the office but the getting all my bits there and getting them home!

    1. ferrina*

      This may be a silly suggestion, but what about one of those puzzle transporting systems? It essentially one big piece of felt that you can roll up, stick in a tube and move to wherever you are going. Obviously wouldn’t work with a binder full of paper, but if it’s about a dozen papers, maybe worth a try?

    2. KateM*

      Would it be possible to have some things that you do only in office and some that you do only at home? Something like “once a week I go into office, have all those inperson meetings, sign papers, etc – I don’t pick through those finance spreadsheets during that day at all”. Not that much different from not picking throguh your spreadsheets during weekend, for example.

    3. Anonymous Hippo*

      I actually like the hybrid schedule because there are things that are certainly easier to do in person, but WFH is better for other tasks.

      I know this isn’t an option for everyone, but I basically duplicated my work space in my office and my home, including the same desk chair. We don’t work with a lot of paper files, everything is online, so I just carry my laptop and notebook from one place to the other and carry on from there. Are schedule is also a week by week schedule, so you don’t have to resetup every day. For example one week I work W-F, the next week M-T. So in the office a couple of days every week, but only switching between every 5 working days.

  115. Platypus*

    I could really use some advice on a job offer I just received. I work in biotech, and was recently laid after only working at my company for 7 months. I was able to secure another offer soon after, and I’ve been at my current job for a month now. It pays a lot better, but I’ve also gone from being exempt to being paid by the hour, and it also involves a lot more bench work than I’m used to and I’ve gotten a lot of back and wrist pain from it. Also, my commute is about an hour which has been rough.

    I’ve just received another offer for a place I interviewed to prior to accepting this position. The pay is better (though not significantly), it’s much less manual work, a shorter commute, and less hours. However, I’m hesitant to burn bridges with my current company, especially since I’m in a Midwestern city so there aren’t as many biotech companies as there are on the coast. I’d also be leaving a well established startup with big money behind it for a much newer one, which I’m a little wary of since the company I was laid off of was also a small startup. I like the people and culture at both companies, so that doesn’t factor into my decision.

    1. Colette*

      I’d stay where you are.

      You haven’t been there that long, and it’s not a great idea to burn your bridges at a stable company for one at a less-stable company, especially in a small market. Yes, there are downsides to your current company, but if you jump and the new company goes under, you’ll regret burning that bridge. (Even if it doesn’t go under, you may regret it when you’re looking for a new job.)

      1. KateM*

        I’d call causing actual health problems a pretty big downside to a job, though. It seems to me that if Platypus told “I liked the company and the job, but the amount of manual work detoriated my health, so …”, every sensible person would understand it made sense to change jobs. Although, maybe it would be good to raise this issue with current boss at first. It definitely doesn’t make sense for me to ruin one’s health over getting those two years in.

        1. Colette*

          True, but I’d suggest Platypus work with her current employer to see if there’s a way to mitigate that. If there’s not, maybe it makes sense to move (or maybe there are other positions internally). But it would still be burning a bridge with a larger employer in a small market, and that’s something to do only if it really is in your best interests.

    2. ferrina*

      You’re already getting back pain after a month. That’s a serious issue. Is that something that you’ve brought up to your current manager? If so, it’s very reasonable to say “Hey, unfortunately I’ve realized that I can’t physcially do this role. For my health, I’ve needed to move on.” Then do everything you can to make the transition as smooth as possible (if it makes sense for the role, could you give 3 weeks notice to try to make the process easier?)

    3. Purple Cat*

      No reasonable person would be upset at you leaving a job that is causing you physical pain AND has a long commute to boot.
      Did you know how much bench work would be involved before you took the position? Or were you just not aware of the physical impact it would have on you? The answer doesn’t really matter, but in this case, I would bring it up to your current manager before you officially give your notice to see if there’s any possibility of shifting roles. But on the other hand, they can’t change the commute….
      Honestly, I think people (in general) overstate the “burning bridges”. Typically, at worst, this one manager might not hire you back. But since there are clear mitigating circumstances, even that’s not a given. It’s unlikely that this manager is going to insist that the company put you on the do not hire list and proceed to bad mouth you to the entire industry scuttling your chances for future jobs.

    4. Be kind, rewind*

      Oh my goodness, as someone who used to work in a lab where I got a repetitive motion injury that I STILL struggle with a decade later, I insist: please take that seriously!

      It sounds like the new offer will be so much better in several DEFINITE ways, whereas you can’t be sure of company stability really for either of them.

  116. Stats platform*

    Seeking advice about R setup at work: I have started using R at work in the last few years, so I am building expertise with the code but do not have much insight into setup and administration of the server. I’m now in a position where I’m providing input to an external partner on potential data analysis programs to make things easier than the current (Excel-based) processes—no super fancy or complicated stats methods needed. This external partner has primarily used point-and-click interfaces, is interested in R as a platform and excited to learn the code, and would receive starter code for crucial processes, but does not have much capacity to dive into troubleshooting if things go sideways—they need something fairly simple to set up and reliable once it’s running. At my work, we have a server-based version of RStudio which runs into issues a handful of times per year that require admin access and, I assume, a high level of expertise to resolve (e.g. needing a restart, not sure what other steps are taken in these instances).

    My question is: are individual installs of R appropriate for someone who needs stability? What issues do individual installs share with server-based versions, and are there issues more common with individual installs to be on the lookout for? And/or insights from experiences of introducing software that is completely new to a team that is crunched for time?

    Thanks in advance, and please forgive me if I’m using incorrect technical terms!

  117. Middle Manager*

    How do you overcome the guilt of leaving a really amazing team in the lurch when accepting a new job offer?

    I’ve been job searching for a few months now, trying to leave both my role and my field. Leaving is 100% the right move for me, but will be a huge blow to my team and direct supervisor. I will be taking a lot of institutional knowledge with me, in addition to leaving at a pretty busy time of year. I am feeling particularly guilty because I’ve had a ridiculous number of family emergencies over the last few months, and my direct supervisor has been nothing but kind and supportive. This week, I unexpectedly took a few days off when a close family member was hospitalized…and also scheduled a final round interview with another company. In a way, it feels like I’m taking advantage of his unquestioning support, and I am pretty sure my leaving will blindside him.

    My team and supervisor are what have kept me in my position for this long, and are also the only thing I’ll be sad to leave behind. Has anyone else dealt with a similar situation or have ways of managing your guilt?

    1. Colette*

      1. Write stuff down. Create a doc of best-practices, “here’s how I do the monthly report”, “when X happens, I do Y” – whatever makes sense in your position. Do performance reviews; generally clean up all your loose ends.
      2. Thank your supervisor for their support (now, before you resign).
      3. When you resign, be clear that you have valued working with them and appreciate how great them are, but that it’s time for you to move on.
      If you do these things, you’re doing the best you can to smooth the transition. Remind yourself that it is OK to make a decision that is best for you, even if it’s not best for everyone else.

      And once you’re in the new job, you’ll move on, and so will your current team. It’ll be OK.

  118. Elle*

    I’m interested in hearing from neurodivergent folks who are currently managers (or those who tried it and ultimately decided it wasn’t for them). I’m being gently encouraged to apply for a management position on my team and while it’s flattering, I’m unsure about having the emotional/mental bandwidth to sufficiently support DRs. For context, my company has ample support for new managers; my own department’s management is supportive but extremely busy (hence the need for additional managers!) – there is also a history of having to be extremely clear with management when folks are overburdened (because they tend to assume everything is fine unless things are actively on fire).

    1. ferrina*

      I’m ADHD. In some ways it makes me a great manager, and in some ways it’s a struggle. The key for me has been leaning into my strengths and delegating my weaknesses. It isn’t something that can always be done, but it works for me.

      My strengths are multitasking, seeing possibilities, and communication. My weaknesses are detailed work- creating reports takes me longer than most others, and I’m pretty bad at creating SOPs. I can create processes that flow really nicely, but I have to design them for other people- I’m really bad at following them myself.

      Neurodivergent means that we have different strengths and weaknesses than others. So how would your strengths and weaknesses play into this new role?

    2. Anonymous Hippo*

      I’m not sure if depression and anxiety count as nuerodivergent, but it is very taxing for me being a manager. It feels like I have to learn a complicated skill tree for everyone I interact with, plus a skill tree of how they interact with others so I can help them there, and it just compounds from there depending on the number of reports and how many connects go in and out of the department. I also have difficulty letting things go for fear they will fall apart, but also an abhorrence of micromanaging, so that whole situation is fraught with anxiety. My original thought was I’m not a manager person, but I allowed myself to be talked into it, and it has been 3 insanely stressful years for me.

      1. River Otter*

        Yep, both neurotransmitter- and neuron-based conditions fall into neurodivergency!

        I am a little bit LOLing at the skill tree you describe – yeah, that more or less describes getting to know people as individuals. Definitely if one can’t handle that skill tree, one should not be a manager, or possibly in any role that requires a large amount of collaboration.

        1. Anonymous Hippo*

          For me its more that the skills are never automatic. I have no natural people skills. So everything is me purposely doing things in order to get a certain outcome. It makes me very good at doing it, but take an enormous amount of effort. So it’s not “oh there is Sally, I wonder how her kids soccer team is doing ” it’s more like “Ok, so Sally needs to supply x,y,z for a,b,c projects, and she’s more forthcoming and on time when I express interest in her life, so what does her kids do? oh yeah, soccer, I’ll ask about that in order to grease this request”. It makes me feel like a psychopath.

    3. River Otter*

      Wouldn’t it depend on exactly which neurodivergency is in play and how it manifests? I am on the spectrum, and I personally do not have the capacity to care enough about another person over the long term to want to supervise anyone. I am delighted to mentor people through projects and teach people skills that I have because that is a shorter term commitment, but caring enough about somebody’s development to work with them over the course of several years is beyond both my capacity and my interest.
      I kind of want to add in here, however, that a whole bunch of neurotypical people become managers who also do not care enough about other peoples’ development to work with them over the course of several years and seem to be mostly interested in the project aspects of management and the authority aspects of people management. So I guess it also depends on which aspects of management you are interested or not interested in.

    4. Jules the First*

      Hi! My first manager job was a train wreck because I was too focused on supporting my DRs emotionally. I got much better as a manager when I realised that my role is to care about them as people, and to do what was within my power to make sure their lives didn’t make their jobs harder (and vice versa). I found the Radical Candor mantra “care personally, challenge directly” really helpful.

      1. cubone*

        also neurodivergent, also love Radical Candor and recommend it regularly. You described it perfectly. I feel like it really helped me understand it wasn’t either be a direct boss who addresses issues OR a nice boss who people like, but that both are possible (and actually, necessary!)

      2. MacGillicuddy*

        If the VP says you are to run the meetings, then take the VP up on that. Do you have an agenda?
        Get stuff in writing, bullet list at least.
        Try a written agenda, or at least a slide, or a list on the whiteboard (that you can take s photo of after the meeting). Include “old business” and “new business” on it.
        Or include “notes from previous meeting” or “decisions made previously “.

        For sidetrack issues, use a whiteboard or even one of those big paper pads on an easel. Write down the sidetrack topics, to address later or at the next meeting. Or if the topic is too big, in a separate meeting.
        After the meeting, send out meeting “minutes” to all parties.

        Having an agenda gives you a device to keep things moving. Emailed or posted notes help with people who can’t remember stuff.

        Good luck

    5. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      ADHD and autistic. I’ve done it, it’s not for me. I’m now pretty much a subject matter expert which is perfect for my information-sponge brain.

    6. Jack Bruce*

      ASD person here: I left management because it took up energy and time that I wanted to use to focus on other skills. At first management was a challenge and I was excited for it, and really had a great team to manage. But turns out having to step in whenever something went wrong, stay attentive to people when I was exhausted, and direct rather than do things was not my bag. I left that position after five years and am now a SME and much happier. I am glad I did it and learned a ton, made friends, but realized I wanted to focus my efforts on different skills. So it depends on what you want to develop.

    7. mreasy*

      I have the “big three” (depression, anxiety, & ADHD), and I actually think I am a more compassionate manager as a result. I have been in management for ages and I actually think it’s my strongest skill set. When you deal with such a range of feelings and experiences, it can be easier to intuit or understand what someone is going through and help come up with solutions.

  119. Kate Kate*

    Looking for advice. During the pandemic, it became clear to me that my boss talks down to me for whatever reason. He’s in his mid 60s and I’m the only female in my office, and the youngest and newest person (though I’ve been there for 6 years now). The other day, IT got involved with a project and after I reported that they didn’t have any issues with the project, my boss emailed back that he didn’t agree with this assessment and quoted some of my email. I replied that IT are the subject matter experts, I definitely asked them, and they replied that they didn’t have any issues, that I did not come to this conclusion on my own.

    I guess I just don’t get why he does this? And are there any tips on how to stop this? Or reframe how I think about his responses? People in my office seem to let it go by going “oh it’s just [boss] being [boss]!” I’m far from young, I turned 40 this year, and am far from an expert at my job, which I fully acknowledge.

    1. Sarra N. Dipity*

      are you the only person he second-guesses like this? if so:
      why he does this: almost definitely sexism.
      how to stop this: you probably can’t. :(

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      Yeah, as a female in usually extremely male dominated work environments, if you’ve got one like this, there ain’t no fixin’ it. And for sure it’s because you’re female

  120. Alice*

    Short version of the question: forced to select a desired salary range from a dropdown menu in an online application form, I chose a range that may be so high that HR screens me out. I would consider accepting lower. Was that a bad idea? Should I talk with a contact at the institution where I applied so that they know to ask HR not to screen out my application? More details below.

    1. Alice*

      – salary range is not listed in this posting, but there is a salary grade; the institution’s HR website gives a range of 68k-115k.
      – postings for similar jobs at the same institution include a range, which is from 68k to 92k, which is the stated *midpoint* of the range given on the institution’s HR website.
      – my current salary, same job in a lower cost-of-living citing, is 83k
      – I had to select a desired salary range in 10k bands, no overlap (ie, 60-70, 70-80, 80-90, 90-100, 100-110, etc)
      – I chose the band that includes the number you get if you put my current salary into an online compare-cost-of-living-in-different-cities calculator; it’s above the stated range in the similar postings
      – In the cover letter I said, I’d like to know more about the benefits and tuition assistance programs (which are supposed to be generous at this institution) and would take them into account

    2. ferrina*

      Start by having a number already in your head. Ideally, you should already know your market value for the type of jobs you are applying for based on your experience, location, etc. If you haven’t done this yet, definitely look at some salary resources and get that figured out. (it’s helpful in so many ways).

      Then, look at the job description. Is there anything there that’s indicating that it’s harder or worth more? Add some money to that compensation number in your head.
      Then stick to that number.

      You can always change what you want as you learn more about the job. That’s very normal.

  121. Leah K.*

    I was born and raised in Ukraine. My parents still live there. I am currently in the US, working for a large multinational. Over the last few weeks, I’ve had to field questions from curious coworkers about my thoughts on the current situation, or the odds I would give to Putin invading. I tried to remain polite even though sometimes I wanted to scream that this is not a curious geopolitical issue to me. This is my family’s safety we are talking about. I don’t think I can do this anymore. Any scripts for shutting down these questions without completely ruining my career (because those questions frequently come from higher-ups)? I feel light I have so much anger inside of me right now, that I am just going to explode if someone asks me about the odds of Ukraine losing or something else like that.

    1. not a doctor*

      Can you just say “I don’t feel comfortable talking about this anymore” and leave it at that?

      1. Anonymous Hippo*

        I would start with this, and if they persist move to something more strong like “this is not a theoretical political discussion for me but a very real and personal crisis for people I love” if they don’t take the first message.

    2. Colette*

      “I’m very worried for my family and don’t want to discuss the situation at work.”
      “This is an upsetting topic for me, so I don’t want to discuss it.”
      “I can’t discuss this, it’s very stressful and upsetting for me.”

    3. Margaery Tyrell*

      If you have the option, I would try to request a mental health sick day. My boss & supervisor offered me one after the (tw) Atlanta spa shootings last year, and while I felt mentally okay to work, as an Asian woman I appreciated that they gave me the grace to bow out if needed.

      +1 to “This isn’t something I feel comfortable talking about. [subject change to work]”

    4. Anonymato*

      I would say “Thanks for asking. This is really hard to talk about since my family is there in the middle of the war, but what I can do is email you a good website that explains things. “

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        I don’t see why Leah K has to be the person to supply a website or any other resources for anyone. They can Google it instead of her having to be anyone’s Ukraine expert.
        Leah, I am so sorry for what is happening, and for what insensitive people are doing to add to your burden.

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      I am so sorry. This has to be so stressful even without people wanting to talk to you about it. Try to remember people are likely coming to you with good intent. But it is perfectly fine to set a boundary and tell folks, “Thank you for asking, but this is a very sensitive topic for me and I would rather not discuss it.” And then transition to another topic.

    6. KateM*

      “Do you have a bet going on in office about how many of my relatives are dead by the end of year or why are you asking?” I don’t know what to say except that I’m so, so sorry.

    7. Chauncy Gardener*

      My husband is from Ukraine. He and I would just say that I’m very concerned about my family and friends there and am not really able to discuss it further.
      If they push, my husband says to tell them to STFU and read the news. And that just tells you how totally upset he is by all this because usually he’s happy to discuss current events. in the area

      1. DJ Abbott*

        PBS Newshour has good coverage and they can watch it on YouTube. It starts at 6 PM and if you start watching at, say, 6:15 it will still show you the whole thing.

    8. RagingADHD*

      “This is intensely personal for me and I’m not willing to discuss it at work anymore. I’m sure you understand.”

      The phrase “I’m sure you understand” is great in a lot of contexts, and politely makes it very clear when you’re setting expectations for people.

    9. Kay*

      “This is literally a life and death situation. I would like to hold it together professionally so can we keep it to work topics?”

      And – I’m so sorry. I hope your family stays safe.

  122. KateM*

    I have sometimes thought about getting a PhD (which where I live means 4 years on top of 4 years of BSc plus 2 years of MSc). I have a feeling, though, that while it would open for me some doors in higher education / academia, it would close pretty much every other kind (for being considered overeducated).

    True or false, in your opinion?

      1. Colette*

        I think I got that backwards. In many (most) fields, a PhD closes more doors than it opens. But there are a few where it’s useful.

        1. KateM*

          Yeah, that what I am afraid of. But even to be a TA and check heaps of first-semester tests which is pretty much manual labor (at least for someone who has MSc in the subject), our local university requires PhD. And anyway I suppose such positions are in high demand among grad students probably?

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      False IMO. PhD lets you jump entry level to mid or higher level in many industry jobs. Opens academia doors. Completed PhD shows your capable of great independence and diligent work. It will close the door on data entry and lab technician type jobs, but you can always leave off resume if you really wanted that type of work I suppose.

      1. ferrina*

        Depends. I’ve had several PhDs apply to positions on my team. It’s not something that require PhD level work. If I see a PhD, I want to know why you went through the trouble of getting a PhD and now want to work on this job. In my experience, a PhD usually means one of two things:
        1. You have a goal of where you are trying to get to, and you are willing to put in several years of study to get there. Since the jobs I hire for don’t require a PhD, I am more likely to hire a ABD than a PhD because an ABD realized that their goal had changed and adapted accordingly. I’ve hired a PhD who got a PhD because they didn’t understand where they were going- and it showed in their work.
        2. You really love studying and academics. In this case I worry about how you’ll adjust to a business environment. Cuz yep, that struggle is real.

    3. Anonymous Hippo*

      Would you have to disclose your PhD? Would that be considered lying? Like you can leave off jobs you don’t want considered can’t you leave off education as well? It’s not the same, but I’ve dropped my community college from my resume and only have my undergrad and masters at this point.

      1. KateM*

        I really don’t know, I haven’t left off stuff like that – specific diplomas that took a semester or two, sure, but not whole levels of education from top. I live in Europe not USA, if that matters.

      2. fueled by coffee*

        It’s hard not to disclose a PhD because that leaves a gap of 5-6 years without full-time work. After enough time you could probably leave it off, but immediately afterwards you’d have to explain what you were doing during that time.

    4. Alexis Rosay*

      Very true in my field (K12 education/nonprofit work), but varies greatly depending on field, so I would not make a blanket statement about all fields. Someone with a PhD but no relevant work experience (nonprofits) or teaching experience (K12 education) would be viewed with extreme skepticism as an applicant and someone who had invested those years in relevant work experience would be seen as much more qualified.

      My general impression is that a PhD in STEM will open a lot more doors than a PhD in humanities.

    5. Overeducated*

      Neither/both? Despite my handle on here, which is tongue in cheek, I haven’t found being “overeducated” an issue – it’s more an issue of having a different background and experience than non-academic hiring managers may be looking for in some sectors. It’s not that you have “too much” education, it’s that the 4-6 additional years you spent on the PhD are not as directly applicable as the 4-6 years another applicant spent working in the field. (I am assuming from the timeline that you’re talking about full time studies, not part time while working.) If you’re not planning on going into academia or another specialized field like pharmaceutical research where the PhD is really necessary, the opportunity cost is the biggest cost. And if you are planning on going into academia…well, look into the statistics on PhDs granted vs tenure track jobs advertised, it’s a risky plan.

      1. Colette*

        I think money is a part of it, too. Many people aren’t willing to spend years + a lot of money to earn the same amount they would have earned with an undergraduate degree – but since their additional education isn’t relevant to the job, that’s what they’re offered.

        1. KateM*

          I definitely do not intend to spend money on PhD (directly, I mean) – I’d try for a no-fee spot and if I wouldn’t get one (of about half a dozen), then scrap that PhD anyway, I’m definitely not going to waste money on something I’m not even good enough at.

    6. HR Exec Popping In*

      It would completely depend on the field, but most careers do not require nor benefit from a PhD. You need to decide if you want one regardless of the impact it would have on your career. And if you think it will close some doors, you don’t need to disclose the degree on your resume.

    7. River Otter*

      Highly dependent on the manager with whom you are interviewing. As per the comments replying to you, there are people who judge you for getting a PhD (I would make a snarky comment about them probably having been rejected from PhD programs, but instead I’ll just include this snarky parenthetical). But there are also people who highly value a PhD and recognize what the skill set that you gained in getting one can bring to your job performance. So, if you want to get a PhD because you love learning, then do it. Applying to jobs will then be a mutually self-selecting process in which you will only apply to jobs where a PhD seems valued and you will only be considered for jobs by people who value a PhD.

    8. No Tribble At All*

      In my experience, True. It’s harder to move away from your specialization the more specialization you become. A master’s would give you sufficient flexibility.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      It’s so hard to say. I don’t work in academia, but I have worked with a lot of people in the commercial who did have their Ph.D, mostly those with STEM field backgrounds, but a few who also had communications, economics, or political science backgrounds.

      At big companies, those with the doctorate do tend to be higher level director or executive levels, but they also had years of experience along with the degree, so it wasn’t a degree alone that got them there. So, ? on the is it worth it. It’s worth it if it’s worth it to YOU.

    10. Nesprin*

      Yes- both true and false. PhD’s involve very specialized training in a very niche discipline, and teach you research in a very specific type of organization. It’s easy to be a idiot savant coming out of a PhD program, and often hiring is harder, because you’re really a specialist that fits a very specific niche. That being said, there are plenty of PhDs in industry here and there in more research focused disciplines.

      That being said, it’s 5 years of HARD work that they pay you little for- if you don’t feel like you need a PhD, don’t go get one.

      Signed, PhD engineering.

    11. Bob Howard*

      Personal experience with a STEM PhD: Just Say No.
      1. Many employers regard you as overqualified.
      2. Other employers you would be better going in with BSc/MSc, and gaining experience instead.
      3. Certainly in the UK, some employers would let you do the PhD as part of your job duties and objectives, and pay the fees for you.

      While the following is mainly about humanities, a lot is applicable to STEM as well
      https://acoup.blog/2021/10/01/collections-so-you-want-to-go-to-grad-school-in-the-academic-humanities/

  123. I'm A Little Teapot*

    I asked last week for help with a script because my brain just couldn’t. At stake – a preagreed (in writing) salary bump. Well report: the performance eval that was scheduled for this week got cancelled…. but I got the salary bump anyway, with retro pay.

  124. JustLetMeDeleteThings*

    Was discussing this with a friend today and I’m curious – how many people work at places where you have to get IT/administrator permission to remove a shortcut from your desktop?

    Bonus points if IT keeps adding new shortcuts that you aren’t allowed to delete.

    I ask because I had never in my life experienced this, even in jobs where you signed on to shared machines, the sign on would then load your preferences for things like shortcuts and the start menu. Until my current job, and then not long after that, a friend also ran into it when they switched jobs. We’re both baffled about this, and even trying to ask IT is met with blank stares because they just don’t see why we care. “But aren’t the shortcuts helpful?” No, not to me they aren’t. Especially when half of them are for programs I don’t even use and have no idea why it’s installed on my computer anyway.

    Meanwhile, every time I log onto my computer and see this mass of a dozen shortcuts that I do not want and did not add, I think about how overly controlling our management is and how much they don’t respect and value my expertise or opinions because they don’t even respect my ability to organize my computer desktop in the way that is the most beneficial to me as an individual. Because once I noticed this one thing, I notice it everywhere.

    1. Anonymous Hippo*

      Most shortcuts on my work laptop are removable, and the few that weren’t I made I.T. remove. I prefer an utterly blank desktop. But it wasn’t a difficult process, I just grabbed an I.T. fellow I was friendly with and they fixed it for me. I can understand how frustrating it would be to just be stuck with it.

      1. Panda (she/her)*

        If you want nothing to show up on your desktop but are unable to delete things, you can also right click (in Windows) > View > then uncheck Show Desktop Icons.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Oh hay, thank you! I also like a clean desktop and have shortcuts added at the enterprise level that I don’t need. (We can add our own files/shortcuts to it, though I don’t, but if I delete anything that’s in the basic profile it gets re-added the next time I log in.)

        3. JustLetMeDeleteThings*

          I know I’m a few days late on this, because I had to wait until I had time to actually try this but you, Panda, have literally decreased my burnout by at least 10% on this day. And also my friend, who was having the same problem, told me to tell you thank you. Sincerely and from the bottom of our hearts, this really is a big deal that will make my work day significantly better.

          Because I’ve always just deleted everything on my desktops to keep them clear so that I can focus (the main reason that I need an uncluttered desktop is ADHD, basically) I didn’t even realize this was a setting because I’d never needed it before. You would think IT would have offered me that option the first two times I asked them to delete everything for me, but I guess they weren’t focused on hearing what the real problem was.

    2. Panda (she/her)*

      I am unable to move or delete the shortcuts which are automatically added to my desktop, and it annoys the heck out of me. However it has not been a hill worth dying on. I sympathize!

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I assume your company is using enterprise Microsoft management tools; the IT department sets up a small number of profiles, assigns people to those profiles, and pushes configurations out to the machines. Any individual change to those profiles – adding a program, removing a shortcut, etc – has to go through IT. The desktop is locked down.

      Could your IT department open up your settings, etc to give you more flexibility? Maybe. There are probably valid security reasons why they don’t.
      Complete flexibility? Almost certainly not.
      Can your IT department handle lots of individual requests and get their jobs done on time and within budget? Not likely; especially in today’s security environment. It takes a lot of work to keep those desktop and the back-end systems updated and secured.

      Saying “I have a shortcut on my desktop I don’t need” is like saying “I have a reference manual on my shelf I don’t need.” How hard is it to just ignore it? And I wouldn’t extrapolate from centralized IT management to “my company doesn’t respect me” – I think these are two completely different things and you should not conflate them at all.

    4. Choggy*

      Can you create a folder and move the shortcuts you don’t want to see into it? I work in IT, and we have created images which have specific Tiles that can be turned into desktop shortcuts as needed, It’s rare we would add shortcuts directly to someone’s desktop.

      1. JustLetMeDeleteThings*

        At one point I tried this, but most of the shortcuts also can’t be moved into folders without administrator permission. The two that I could move just re-appeared on the desktop a few weeks later (probably with a software update) and then I had two copies of the shortcut instead of one.

        From what I can tell, the intent is partially that they don’t believe that employees are capable enough to find these programs/folders on their own. At least that’s the tone they’ve taken with me when I’ve asked what I could do to make it stop.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Our IT does not automatically make shortcuts. Or control what’s on the desktop.

      They do employ a software tool that sometimes requires you select a permission to run or delete. This happens immediately and grants you temporary Admin privileges, or, may deny the execution of the file or action if it’s deemed suspicious or necessary for running Windows.

    6. KateM*

      I can add and remove buttons to/from my tool bar as I want and also to start menu most often used whatever the thing is called. I rarelly see my desktop anyway (just today realized that I have set as the background of my home computer a random puzzle game, AGAIN, probably some days ago already).

    7. Nesprin*

      I’ve worked in medical settings and defense and other settings with extremely locked down computer systems. Being unable to change the shortcuts on your desktop? Banana crackers.

    8. fhqwhgads*

      Not normal. Permission to install/uninstall? Absolutely normal. Presence of absence of a shortcut on the desktop? Nah. IT shouldn’t give a shit unless it’s something 100% of employees absolutely should be using and for some reason in the past there was a chronic issue of people being all “where is thing?” that forced them to force it on everyone to stop the timewaste of asking. But otherwise, very weird they’d want to clutter people’s desktops.

  125. President Porpoise*

    I’m way late this week, and this may not get answers but…

    We received info on our 2022 raises this week. Due to some company restructuring, the % increase – including cost of living and merit raises and bonuses – was smaller than in previous years. The total increase, unsurprisingly, was smaller than 7.5%, which was the rate of inflation in the last year, and was also smaller than we used to see. 3% raise (not counting the bonus) this year, vs. 5-7% raise (not counting the bonus) in previous years. It’s not my performance – that’s been excellent and I’m up for one, maybe two promotions this year.

    I of course said thank you for the increase, etc. – but also raised the fact that since inflation was so high, this is effectively a pay cut. My manager – a wonderful person – has been discussing that with other leaders in the org and with HR. It’s looking like overall inflation was not really considered by anybody prior to raises being set. My hope is that the promotion wage increase will make up for it.

    So, my question is three-fold:
    1 – As a manager, would you be annoyed at me pointing out the inflation angle, or would you appreciate it?
    2 – Was there a better way for me to have this conversation, or is on the fly during performance review appropriate?
    3 – Are your companies factoring inflation into wage increases this year?

    1. President Porpoise*

      For additional background, my company is not hurting. Their net profits were measured in the billions last year.

    2. I was told there would be llamas*

      I told my boss that I thought our 3% raises were crap and the executives could stop patting themselves on the back for giving us “big raises” this year when inflation is 7% and they gave themselves like 30% raises. I don’t mince words with my boss. My company is not hurting either.

    3. Kathenus*

      I’ve never worked anywhere that was able to regularly provide increases to keep up with inflation as a default. Although sometimes an increase might be called COL, in my experience that means it’s fixed for everyone versus dependent on performance/merit, and intended to ‘help’ keep up with inflation versus being literally tied to it. As someone who is now also a budget manager, it’s not financially tenable in many organizations to have available funding for raises that high – at least not in my industry.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        We absolute tie our COL raises to inflation and actual local cost of living changes. That’s the base rate for all annual raises and we do merit raises on top of it. We’re a small nonprofit.

    4. Anonymous Hippo*

      1) as a manager I am never annoyed with my reports bringing legitimate work concerns to me. I’d rather at least have the opportunity to address it before they jump ship or simmer with resentment.
      2) I think it’s perfectly fine to address it broadly in the meeting when the raise was presented.
      3) My company froze wages last year even thought it was the best results in the company’s decades of history (they did give bonuses though). Supposedly they are supposed to make that up to us this quarter, but so far we haven’t seen anything, and I know we only put 3% increase in the budget, despite my pointing out at the time that was far and away below inflation.

    5. Panda (she/her)*

      As a manager…
      1 – I would sympathize, but I don’t actually get to determine pay raises for my staff – I get input, but the final decision comes from senior management. That being said, if an employee raises concerns, sometimes the company can magically find extra money in the budget (they did for me when I got an abysmally low raise one year).
      2 – I would say the way you raised it is appropriate – I think they key is to raise it relatively soon after the raises come out. It comes across weirdly if you raise it like 6 months later.
      3 – Not to my knowledge, but we did give out bigger than usual raises last year due to the Great Resignation and lots of people leaving, which really freaked out company leadership.

    6. HR Exec Popping In*

      It isn’t annoying for an employee to raise concerns at all. And having the conversation in the moment is very appropriate if you are comfortable doing so.

      As for taking inflation into account, the direct answer is no. The more broad and complete answer is we take into account the cost of labor which is influenced by inflation. We don’t take away money when there is negative inflation and we don’t directly add money because of inflation. We benchmark what the cost of labor is and make sure that our merit raises (and salary ranges & bonus structure) at least keep up with the market if not exceed it.

      But all companies handle this differently based on different priorities and budget constraints.

    7. President Porpoise*

      Thanks, all, for your responses. I truly love my work, my personal set up, and my boss (in a not weird way, y’all), and while my overall company is going through some not-always-great changes, the good way outweighs the bad. I’m unlikely to jump ship for at least another two years. I appreciate your perspectives, particularly on whether considering inflation in COL increases is actually normal, which is doesn’t seem to be. I’ll roll with it. Have a great weekend!

  126. Anonyfish*

    Seeking employer privacy practice insight!

    Serious abuse allegations have been made against the CEO of my company. We have pushed back as a group of employees asking for more transparency about the situation–everything we know comes from a series of Glassdoor reviews posted by former employees, and reaching out to the ex-employees privately to check in. In response, upper management claims that they can’t disclose what’s going on because of privacy law that protects former employees.

    My private response–WTAF!? Is this a legit thing? I’m about to go down the rabbit hole and consult a lawyer friend (part of my role in the group pushback), but was wondering if anyone here had insight. Can an employer claim privacy law as a reason not to address abuse allegations? Is there anything we as employees can do to push back against this?

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      It is 100% normal to not publicly share the details of a complaint/allegation against an employee. Imagine if someone made an allegation against you? Would you want the company to share that information? The allegation could be unfounded and sharing the information with others could be considered slander.

      I would recommend you focus on the process the company will take to assess the validity of the allegation, not the details of it. I understand wanting to know, but it really isn’t your business. You do want to know the company is taking it seriously though.

      1. Anonyfish*

        Thank you, this is very helpful. It’s been SO frustrating because the CEO’s actions have put the company in danger (there’s been talk of potential shuttering because of the cascading effects of his actions), and upper management and the board have been silent for months on their action plan for dealing with it. Definitely strategically helpful to know where they’re legally in the right, it’s a good point you make about focusing on the process of assessing the validity of the allegations rather than the allegations themselves. I appreciate your input!

        1. HR Exec Popping In*

          That is very frustrating and I’m sorry you have to deal with that. Honestly if you don’t trust the process or your CEO you might want to look external.

          1. Anonyfish*

            Thank you! My contract is up this summer and I am gleefully looking forward to being out of there.

            1. Chauncy Gardener*

              Agree with all of the above and also suggest you polish up your resume in case the company does tank due to all this. That is assuming your contract will terminate if the company goes out of business.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      The reason they gave you for not discussing it is not great but there are many logical and reasonable reasons for them to not discuss it. I’m sort of surprised they didn’t tell you they don’t discuss ongoing litigation or whathaveyou.

  127. Nelalvai*

    There’s been a few letters talking about the social aspects of teleworking–teams that went way overboard with virtual socials, etc. Has there been any posts about how to do it well and effectively? I’m at a point where I’d be happy teleworking permanently, except I’m missing those interactions you get from working in the same physical space as other people. My grand-boss has attempted to organize a few get-togethers, with mixed results. Any advice?

    1. Margaery Tyrell*

      The events I’ve found the least painful are usually managed by someone external. (Did you know 99% of people are terrible at running a Zoom?) I’ve done some trivia team events that have been pretty fun! (I wasn’t in charge of running it, but I think we worked with people at Sporcle.)

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      No posts come to mind but I wanted to emphasize the need to practice and run through team events before hosting them. Have scripts and plans for the video won’t play or the mic cut out or the MC disconnected. (Rahul dropped the call, Robin will jump into leading call instead. Video won’t play we’ll switch to game B while Steph troubleshoots the video, if she can fix it we’ll add it back after game event C). Test your content with someone on remote as if it was a real scenario, is there lack, how’s the sound, hows the view. Especially for synced content like kahoot trivia game on phone while on zoom call, what does the presenter view look like vs the player, does presenter need to share screen differently and so on.

  128. Margaery Tyrell*

    Incredibly simple question (hopefully) — would love to hear from fellow design/art-minded folks out there, especially.

    How do you calculate your freelance rate?
    If my F-T salary comes out to $X hourly, would a freelance be $X+10 or $X * 1.25?
    I haven’t really done freelance work so this is an unknown territory to me, haha.

    1. Anonymous Hippo*

      Don’t forget to include all the self-employment tax you’ll need to cover, and the cost of maintaining an office and all the little expenses that go along, also not being full time scheduled. Absent doing a cost study on it, I would say freelance should be at minimum 150% of salary, and possibly 200%.

      1. Margaery Tyrell*

        Ah sorry should’ve clarified in my initial post — this would be for a one-off project (I don’t plan on leaving my f-t job anytime soon), so I don’t necessarily have to worry about office/expenses. I’m definitely worried about forgetting tax #s though haha. Thanks for your insight!

        1. Anonymous Hippo*

          I would tend to say charge more for a one off actually. Because the lower price point would be to be more competitive and attract additional work as you build the business.

      2. Filosofickle*

        Yes, 1.5-2x is a good starting point. Since it’s a one-off, the lower end is good enough to cover taxes. But just because it’s not a “business” doesn’t change the value of the work.

      3. Anonymato*

        To get to the hourly in your F-T job first, did you look at the benefits too? Let’s say you have 3 weeks of vacation time and Federal holidays so you are actually getting paid for working 8 hours a day minus those days? When I switched to part-time (or contractor), it meant I asked for getting more than half of the full time salary because the employer was not anymore providing vacation, holidays and insurance…

    2. KateM*

      Well, if your additional costs (including taxes!) are flat rate additional 10$ per hour, then +10, and if they are more like a per cent (which taxes usually are, aren’t they?) then you obviously need to multiply with something. Tell me how much % from brutto income do you need to pay to taxes and I will gladly calculate your multiplier. :)

    3. Attractive Nuisance*

      I’m not a freelancer, but the advice I’ve heard is that if you transition from a full time job to full time freelancing, you should charge clients 3x your previous hourly salary. Or charge them what your bill rate was at your previous job (if you know it).

      1. Panda (she/her)*

        +1

        I would also suggest looking up what hourly rate freelance work in your field goes for. You can Google it and/or look up on freelance job boards. Don’t sell yourself short just because you’re keeping your day job.

    4. MacGillicuddy*

      The rough estimate formula I’ve heard is this:
      Using your current hourly rate, calculate your yearly salary like this:
      HourlyRate times 40 = weekly rate
      Weekly rate times 52 = yearly salary

      Now to get contractor rate, use 40 hrs per week, but only 40 weeks per year:
      Yearly divided by 40= X
      X divided by 40 = contract hourly

      So if your full time job pays $40. an hour, your yearly is $40 times 40 hrs times 52 weeks, or $83,200 a year.

      To mostly break even on freelance, you’d need to charge at least $52. an hour.

  129. PeachCube*

    Why do recruiters ghost? I don’t understand how I was told I was the top candidate during my phone screen. I was told I checked off all the boxes on their wish list and would hear back about the next steps in 2 days. 1.5 weeks later, radio silence and no response to my email asking about follow-up. I understand that delays happen but I can’t help but feel irritated when ghosted.

    2. ferrina*

      I’ve been on the other side of this. Sometimes the interview portion of the process just take longer- schedules can be hard to match. Sometimes a new stakeholder emerges who wants to sign off on everything. Sometimes I suddenly have a really big deadline/get sick and I don’t have time to push the hiring process forward. And sometimes the budget/position gets frozen. There’s no way to know what’s happening from the outside.

      You can do absolutely everything right and still not get the job for reasons completely out of your control. Unfortunately the best thing to do is to put it out of your mind and move on.

    3. LawBee*

      Any number of reasons, including the very human one of falling behind on tasks. Yeah, no contact eight days after you were told to hear something is frustrating. Maybe the hiring manager told the recruiter not to say anything to the candidates until everything was nailed down. Maybe you didn’t get the job but they can’t say anything yet. Maybe you did get the job but the recruiter is waiting for the hiring manager to confirm a crucial piece of information before she can relay it to you. Or, maybe she’s bad at her job, or swamped, or you are call #50 on a very long list of phone calls, or she’s sick at home.
      I’d be super irritated as well! But also there may be a solid reason. Can you call the recruiter directly?

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I know it’s incredibly frustrating, and more so when you’re desperate for a job. But when interviewing, realize ghosting isn’t some new thing, and it’s just part of the job search.

      The best advice I have is to interview and move on without any expectation an offer will actually follow.
      Sometimes you’ll be pleasantly surprised, and those are the companies worth noting.

    5. PeachCube*

      Thank you so much for the feedback/advice, everyone! It makes me feel better & I will continue my job search.

    6. MaryLoo*

      Because all they care about is their commission, they have no manners, and they figure you’re not worth it if there nothing in it for them.

      I understand the other posters talking about people getting busy etc, but if a recruiter tells you you’re a top candidate and then ghosts you, that’s just unprofessional. The fact that so many recruiters do this doesn’t excuse it.

      I keep a list of recruiters who have done this and if they contact me again about a different job, I ask them about the lack of contact/ghosting. Probably won’t change their behavior but I want to see how they react. Devious on my part, I know, but if they’re embarrassed and/or feel guilty it’s their own fault.

  130. And so it goes*

    Q: How do managers navigate feeling underappreciated?
    A reddit thread in which a supervisor obviously felt personally unhappy that a direct report didn’t appreciate past favors got me thinking about myself as a manager and all my friends who manage. Logically, we understand that an important role as managers is to advocate for and find ways to support our report, and we shouldn’t expect thanks. But sometimes it seems like no matter how much you fight for employees, no matter how many ‘wins’ you achieve, the employees just move on to the next grievance. For example, last year was rough financially for my organization, but I was able to argue for and get increases in their professional development budgets. No one thanked me, and I didn’t expect thanks- but I also didn’t expect the only response to be “I wish we’d gotten it last year so I could’ve taken Course X.” A friend shared that she fought tooth and nail to get regular remote work approved at a place where the boss had been dead-set against it; when told they were able to go from 0% to 50% remote, the y argued, “Why not 100%?” Just a few examples, but the pattern of manager fighting to get X, gets X, and the department immediately moving on to Y (or X+5) is common.

    At least for myself, I try to be as transparent as possible when I ask for things from above, and make it clear that political and social capital are expended for each ask. I also understand- at least intellectually- that it’s the nature of employees to agitate for better conditions, and for managers to have to settle sometimes for moving the needle. I also know that it’s human nature to sometimes just vent.

    But when I’m sitting in Zoom with my reports after writing memos/taking meetings/getting quotes/crafting arguments/meeting with higher ups/spending so much dang time to get something they want, and for the only response to be, We want MORE, oh, it can be exhausting. And of course, in these times, exhaustion comes around a lot faster than it usual.
    So how do other managers handle this?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It sounds like your employees think “advocating for your staff” is your only responsibility, so it’s no wonder they treat you that way.

      I think you ought to reframe your responsibilities to them (and maybe to yourself). They think you are nothing but a means for them to get what they want; but your role is as a means for the company to get what it wants, without completely trashing its workforce or its reputation. It’s completely appropriate to respond to “we want a $50000 automated llama groomer” with “there’s no way that’s getting approved; I spend 8 weeks every year working on the capital budget, I know how much money we have to spend, and it’s not there.”

    2. Kathenus*

      I don’t have any real constructive ideas for you but I go through these exact same feelings myself sometimes and I empathize – it can be really demotivating. What is slowly helping me is reading on AAM again and again that getting thanks like this is not the norm (nor should it be), recalibrating thinking that my efforts towards employees are business-related not personal (meaning although I may do them for employees in one sense but am really doing them to retain happy employees as part of my job for the good of the business – and that the employee perspective is that they are getting them (and may feel they deserve them) from the business ultimately versus from you as a person, so an individual thanks to you isn’t on their radar in most cases). And then those occasional thanks that I do get really mean so much more as I’m getting better at having more realistic expectations – I can be happily surprised if I get one and stop feeling like I am owed any at all.

    3. ferrina*

      I haven’t run into this, and your question really made me think about why this is.

      I think it’s because I run my work teams like a sports team. We all have a different role, but at the end of the day our goals are the same. When one person is struggling, we shift our roles so we can cover the gap, otherwise we’ll get clobbered (zone defense metaphor!). That includes when I’m having a rough day- I get to ask for help too. This helps two-fold; 1) they know I value them and trust them to help me when I need them and 2) they get to see what my job actually is and usually decide that they are much happier not doing it. It also means that we have a regular exchange of goodwill- when a project demands it, I’ll make them redo the same slide 15 times and work 60 hours for three weeks straight. But they also know that I will fight my clients to avoid that scenario and that I will always find a way to make it up to them, by giving them the next fun project, or a comp day, or a special development opportunity (depending on the individual and what they want). I proactively look out for them (sport metaphor: watching the field and seeing the plays before they happen) and they work hard for me. I don’t need a thank you, because they’ve already thanked me through their hard work and going above and beyond.

      When you advocate for your team, it’s not to give your team a present. That’s what a cake is for. You’re advocating to make your team run better by getting them resources that make their work more efficient (telework or professional development) and increase retention. If that doesn’t feel worth it, why? Is it that their work quality isn’t great? That their attitude is poor? Those won’t change through more advocacy, that will be changed only through direct management.

      1. Kathenus*

        I love your last paragraph! Especially this – When you advocate for your team, it’s not to give your team a present. That’s what a cake is for. Thanks for helping me continue my mental journey on this topic.

      2. And so it goes*

        This is such an interesting comment! I’m very team-oriented, and I often get comments from them and from outside on how well I’ve developed a team mentality. Maybe I should’ve played more sports? I will think on this.

  131. Anon for this one*

    How do you handle a boss who is new to management, is managing a “team” that really involves a bunch of sub-teams (which dont’ interact at all) and wants to have lots of long meetings together that devolve into detailed accounts of stuff that most people don’t know about, understand, or have any ability to even understand? Because we all need to “be a team.” And is wanting to “team build” a lot (by doing weight lifting or encouraging each other with fitness “how’re your steps?” or drinking).

    I’ve already tried coaching that “the best team building is doing work together” and such, and he seems to get it in the moment, but… I just sat through a meeting that demonstrated that he Does Not Get It. Although they did back off the fitness type stuff when I said that could be an HR nightmare if somebody has a medical issue they don’t want to disclose.

    I’m not adverse to team meetings, but I literally wouldn’t know if the other 10ish folks fell into a black hole, and we’re about to start having 2-3 hours of “team meetings” a week. Thoughts?

    1. ferrina*

      Is it impacting your work? If it’s causing you to stay overtime to finish your work, then that’s worth flagging. But if your boss just really likes meetings and doesn’t mind that you could be doing other work…well, you might need to just deal with this.
      What if you asked to take over a team building meeting and did something that you like? Trivia, ice breaker, watching a Neil deGrasse Tyson clip then speculating on the nature of the universe. Suggest that the team can each take turns leading an activity. He might realize that these activities aren’t as much fun when he’s not choosing the activity, or he might not. Either way, it would make that session a little more entertaining for you.

      1. Anon for this one*

        In another line of work, that would be a great idea, ferrina!

        For reasons I can’t get into (too identifying), that won’t work here. However, what you have done is show me that I need to get really clear with him about what I said earlier. What you said pushed me to realize that he’s looking to have a buddy group, and per my comments, dropping the fitness type stuff, so it’s just… nothing. They are “work meetings” but there’s nothing to talk about so folks are just droning on and on…

        I also probably need to tell him that if he’s going to be management, he needs to be very careful about his interaction with his staff. He can say “Who wants to go out for a beer after work on Tuesday?” or “I’m going out to get a beer at 5, everyone’s welcome to join,” but he shouldn’t say “Since we’re coming into the office we’ll make a day of it. We’ll stay for an hour or two after and go to the brewery across the street as a team building thing” because it pressures people and crosses a lot of lines.

  132. DJ Abbott*

    I finally got a real job! After two years of pandemic under- and unemployment, I signed the offer letter today and start Tuesday. :)
    It’s in an office that administers benefits.

    @Wintermute, I applied at insurance companies. I got one interview at one my friend works for. That was the one where two interviewers didn’t turn on their videos. Even though I couldn’t see them, I got the impression they were put off by my outgoing ways. I was looking for something where I get to work with people more, so I mostly applied to administrative jobs and not underwriting or accounting.

    I didn’t negotiate the salary. I read what all is said here, and thought about it, but in both interviews the interviewer told me what the salary would be and why, so it didn’t feel right. I went back and looked at the job description and I’m starting at the top of the range, so that’s cool!

    Can’t wait to start! :)

  133. Promotion Regret*

    So, I belong to a small team at a small business: there’s me, my manager, and there was a coworker who was technically a peer but who my role supported. My coworker left the company a few months before the end of 2021, and after a month or so without hiring a replacement, my manager raised the idea of a promotion to my coworker’s position. This would have been an expected progression for me – I just hadn’t expected it to come so soon, since I’m fresh out of school and had only been at my first position for a year. My employer made me a wonderful offer too – it reached my threshold of an opportunity that I couldn’t say no to.
    However, I’m two months in and I feel like I’m floundering. The change in scope of my job has thrown me off more than I expected: instead of doing quality control and tracking of the teapots, now I’m managing the whole teapot production process. The shift from concrete to abstract job duties is messing with me. I know a helping portion of the anxiety I’m experiencing is imposter syndrome/new job uncertainty, but does anyone have any advice about dealing with a situation like this?

    1. River Otter*

      My first advice is to stop thinking that you have imposter syndrome when what you have is the perfectly normal struggle with learning a whole new set of skills on the go. It is OK to be bad at some thing the first time you do it. Be a little kinder to yourself. You are only two months in, so you should not expect to have mastered it at this point.
      Identify who you can ask for support on things. That could be your boss or it could be other people who have done the role in the past, or it could be the people who use the production process. Figure out what type of support in terms of getting advice or input you could really benefit from, and then don’t be afraid to ask for it. Expect to continue to have trouble with at least some aspects for several more months. Learn to be OK with the fact that you are having trouble. Sometimes beating ourselves up for having trouble is actually worse than the fact that we are having trouble, so just learn to accept that you are having trouble. It will pass as you do this more.

      Good luck!

    2. ferrina*

      There’s a couple different things that could be going on, and without knowing what your job is, I can’t know which of these it is.

      1. It’s hard. You will learn this and you will do it. New jobs can be hard, especially with a learning curve. Especially if you’re prone to imposter syndrome. But be honest- can you do this? What skills do you need? Gather your confidence, and buckle down. Give yourself 1 year to just learn. Ask all the questions. Try it all. Learning curves are hard, but you will get through it.

      2. Your company made a bad decision. Sometimes companies promote the wrong person because they are too lazy to look for the right one. I worked under a boss that had half the required experience, and she had no idea what she was doing. She did a bad job because she had no idea what her job was. But the company was too lazy to bother posting the job and scared to go even a week without the job being filled, so they just threw someone in and she was too inexperienced to realize that she wasn’t ready for the job.

      I don’t know which describes you. But a couple things to consider-
      How much experience does this job usually need? If it’s 2-3, then you can probably learn to do it. If it’s 5-7 or more, be wary.
      Why did your boss promote you? Was it the potential that they saw, the track record of excellence? Or was it that you were a breathing body who worked in the same field?
      How hard do you want to fight for it? I was thrown into a job that I was deeply underqualified for. But I worked harder than anyone there. For the first year, I was only half as efficient. I had no one teaching me, so I had to learn everything the hard way. But I learned. And I made it. It was hard work, but I’m ambitious and love a challenge (maybe a little too much). Is that something that sounds good to you? If not, it’s perfectly fine to look for a position that matches what you are looking for!

    3. Schmitt*

      How much support are you getting from your manager? Did you two talk about what you’re expected to achieve in the role in 1 / 3 / 6 months? If not, I would go back and start there. “Hey Manager, I feel a little lost and I wanted to align with you about what your expectations are for me two months into this role, and how quickly I need to get fully up to speed. I was expecting to be dyeing the llamas by myself at two months, but now I see that this isn’t realistic and I need to learn more about different dye toxicities before I can do that on my own; I feel like I’m already up to speed on building emotional connections with the llamas, though. Can we talk about that?”

      Also, you’re not now trying to do both your old job and your new job simultaneously, right?

  134. Valued & Underpaid*

    I really like my job, but they don’t pay me enough. We just had a company wide meeting to review 2021 and look forward to 2022. I am involved in a lot of different things at work and got a bunch of random shout outs from management during the call, which was really nice. However, I think I am grossly underpaid. I am 29 and make as much as my boyfriend made as an intern 10 years ago. Granted, it’s a completely different industry with a pay gap to begin with, but still….I need to figure out how to get them to pay me. I don’t want to have to threaten to leave my job, but at the same time, I want to get married, hopefully have a baby, and buy a house, all in the next two years. How should I go about telling them I need them to pay me a significant amount more or I will have to start looking elsewhere? Thanks!

    1. Valued & Underpaid*

      I also wanted to say that I know the worth of an employee is not a defined thing. I think my company values me, but also know that everyone is replaceable. I see great things for my company in the future, and I want to be a part of it. Help!

      1. I was told there would be llamas*

        What makes you think you are grossly underpaid? You can’t compare yourself to someone in a completely different industry. Have you looked at open jobs to see what the pay ranges are? Are there other people in the same role as you in the same company? If so, do you feel comfortable asking them if they will share how much they make? Given all the shout outs, can you ask your manager what you need to do for a promotion (and pay raise)? Ok, that’s probably enough questions, lol!

    2. River Otter*

      “I am 29 and make as much as my boyfriend made as an intern 10 years ago. Granted, it’s a completely different industry with a pay gap to begin with, but still”

      So you are getting paid less than somebody in a more highly paid field… That is not a compelling argument. What would be a compelling argument would be some research on salaries for jobs in your area that are close to what you do. You can look on places like glass door and indeed, and there are also data available from the bureau of labor statistics. Compile some data and if it shows that you are underpaid, then present that data to your boss and ask the question, “what can we do to make sure that I am getting paid the market rate for my skills? I see myself having a long tenure at this company, and I would like to make sure that I am getting paid commensurate to my skill set.” Don’t bring up your boyfriend or your housing and family goals. You get paid according to what you do for work, not according to how you would like to spend your money.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      You need to compare apples to apples, not apples to guinea hens.

      First step – go on something like PayScale and figure out what the market looks for *your field/job*. Compare that number to what you’re making now, and make sure you’re looking comprehensively – check to make sure that the title you’re looking at isn’t so broad that it could mean a variety of experience levels/people managed/etc.

      Then, if you have a case that you are underpaid *according to the market & location*, you go to them with that data and make your case.

      1. ferrina*

        Exactly this. Other resources include Glassdoor, salary(dot)com and the Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Outlook Handbook.

        Once you know the worth of your position, ask for it. If they hem and haw, go elsewhere. Don’t threaten to look elsewhere, just do it. If you threaten to leave, they may push you out before you’re ready.

  135. Can I get my team to stop working?*

    My direct reports don’t really take their time off. Let me say, we don’t have an intense workload on our team, deadlines are resonable, and there are only a couple times a year where we are really busy. I just started managing this team last year and they schedule vacations and time off, but are constantly checking and replying to emails during that time. When I first started one of them had a vacation planned and I noticed they didn’t turn their out of office on. When I asked why they said they “didn’t want people to know they were gone.” This is clearly a culture thing more than it’s related to our actual work. Personally I believe that it is important to disconnect and recharge, but I don’t know how firm I should be about this. Should I say DO NOT CHECK/REPLY TO EMAILS WHEN YOU ARE OFF! Or just let it go? I think it’s clear they don’t have to and that I don’t want them to, but they are still doing it. I do also plan on modeling the behavior by not checking my email or messages when I’m off, but I haven’t had a vacation yet since I’m new.

    1. ferrina*

      Yes, you can call them on it! I’ve scolded my direct reports for replying to Slack messages at 10pm.

      I set really clear rules for my team. If it’s 6pm-8am, I don’t expect a response from you until working hours (unless I explicitly tell you otherwise). If you are on PTO, don’t’ check email. I don’t care if it makes you happy, it makes me unhappy and I’m the boss. Make sure I have your cell phone number- I will call you if anything comes up (that makes them feel a lot better that you can reach them if you need to). Here’s my number when I’m on PTO- I won’t be replying to email.

    2. Girasol*

      Make sure no one is contradicting that message. If anyone says, “Vacation eh? Must be nice! I haven’t had one in two years!” or “We made our goal thanks to Cynthia who worked through her vacation to get the job done!” it contradicts your message. If there have been layoffs and people believe that taking a vacation and disconnecting might have been part of the selection criteria – whether they’re right or wrong about that – that will contradict your message. Sounds like something of that sort might be going on if people hear what you’re saying, see the example you’re setting, and they’re still reluctant to unplug.

    3. Colette*

      I think you need to set expectations for the whole team. “I’ve notice that when people take vacation, they still answer emails. It’s important to have time to recharge, so this year I want everyone to plan to take their time off and disconnect. No checking emails or doing any work. Set your out of office and enjoy your time off.”

  136. MeTwoToo*

    I need some perspective. I’ve been a director at my healthcare facility for more than a decade. I’m comfortable and I love my coworkers. Some of us have been together since the beginning. Covid was hard, we lost some coworkers who were also close friends, and many patients. I had thought about moving to a different type of job, but, just being realistic, I’m one of the main people holding everything together when we’re so short-handed and the team depends on me. That said, the business has been sold and I’m not liking some of the changes. I started looking just as a frustration outlet and had a couple interviews that went nowhere.

    Today I interviewed for a job that I was sure I didn’t want. After the phone interview I had definite issues, like ‘the only way it’s possible is if XYZ’. I interviewed anyway and they XYZ. They addressed every concern and it seems great; closer to home, reasonable expectations, nice boss, etc. Said they will contact me Monday with an offer and suggested they are willing to meet my salary request. Everything seems great, but I came home and cried anyway. I don’t know what to do.

    1. Colette*

      Holding things together is not your responsibility. How would you feel if you stay and the people you’re staying for decide to leave?

      Take the new job. You’re not happy where you are, you’re also probably burnt out, and the people you leave behind will cope.

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        This *1,000,000! Please take the new job and stop carrying the weight of that organization on your shoulders. It doesn’t belong there. Please put yourself first. It will feel strange at first, but then you will wonder why you didn’t do this in the first place.
        Thank you for all you do!

    2. Ali + Nino*

      Sounds like you’re in a position similar to my husband. Is it possible those were years of relief? Healthcare workers (including directors) have been absolutely pummeled by Covid so I think it makes sense that a sudden possibility of leaving an always stressful situation may have opened the floodgates.
      It’s good that you have the weekend to think and sleep on it.

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’ve been in your position. I know it’s hard. Take the new job.

      You’ll grieve, you’ll feel bad, that’s normal. It will be so good for you in the long run.

    4. Panda (she/her)*

      Just because you’re sad doesn’t mean leaving is the wrong decision. There are probably parts of that job that you liked and will miss. That’s completely normal! But it sounds like leaving IS the right decision for you. You don’t owe your team loyalty to a company that isn’t treating you well – and perhaps by leaving you will show them that it’s okay for them to get out too.

    5. DinosaurWrangler*

      Take the job.
      You said the business was sold and you don’t like the changes.
      Having worked in 3 different companies that were bought by bigger companies, my experience has been if you’re seeing things you don’t like already, things will only get worse. The possibilities of restructuring and layoffs are very very real!!!!
      It’s hard to leave a team that you have worked well with for so long. Let your coworkers know how to reach you, and that you’d be glad to be their reference, because it likely that some (many?) of them will also be job hunting.

  137. Thank You Notes Again*

    Hiring managers, phone screeners, especially in nonprofits: Would you ever eliminate a candidate at the phone screen level because they didn’t send you a thank you email?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Nonprofit HR who does hiring: no! Job hunting is super stressful. I’ve had people forget to submit resumes with their application materials, forgetting a formality isn’t super far-fetched. They’re always nice to receive but I wouldn’t disqualify over sending one.

      However I know some people do subscribe to it being a sign of respect and professionalism. I think that’s gonna lose you strong candidates over minor oversights, but there are different schools of thoughts.

    2. Jacey*

      Not a hiring manager myself, but friends with one who hires for a position that attracts a lot of first-time white collar workers. Sending a thank you note for an interview isn’t such a well-known norm that it makes sense to penalize people over not following it, especially if the person isn’t super experienced in interviews or white collar work culture.

    5. Ama*

      I am in nonprofit and have hired for a few roles over the last couple of years and no I would not eliminate a candidate for not sending a thank you email. While a really great thank you email, or one that addresses a question I had about the candidate after the interview can help boost a candidate, I don’t believe in punishing people for a convention a lot of people are not aware of (plus, these days you can’t be 100% sure that they didn’t send an email and it got eaten by your spam filter).

  138. Ali + Nino*

    Has anyone else seen or heard a push lately to add leave for miscarriages to PTO packages? I don’t have an issue with it in theory but I wonder why it’s necessary to spell out “miscarriage leave” rather than just increase the # of sick days or PTO available for all employees? I understand visibility is important but some people (myself included) prefer privacy and I think blanket increases would also help us avoid discussions where people one-up each other (e.g. How can you take bereavement leave for a cat? Etc.). What do you think?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      That sounds oddly intrusive and specific. I’d allow it to fall under bereavement, personally. I agree with you that upping the allocations is the best practice, but many places prefer leave for extraordinary circumstances because it can be called a benefit and doesn’t need to be granted terribly often when compared to PTO (I don’t mean that to sound cynical or negative it’s just the real economic benefit to the company – it’s still better than nothing and I know not all companies can afford large buckets of PTO). So bereavement leave, short term disability, whatever it may be are more popular options to have in your package. But once you start getting granular that makes me uncomfortable. I would rather be able to say I had a death in the family, or I need to take medical leave, without getting specific.

    2. Ama*

      Yeah I really would prefer either an overall increase of sick days and an explanation in the employee handbook that “sick leave can also cover [list of other things].” Or that it can be covered under bereavement leave if that’s a bucket they want to have.

      I think this is one of those instances where someone’s intentions are good but they aren’t really thinking about how many people in a given company end up needing to know what type of leave someone is taking in order to process it correctly and what that could mean to a grieving employee (even at my small employer, my boss and the three people who process leave requests and payroll would all know because the class of leave shows up on our pay stubs — I learned this when I actually did take bereavement leave for a relative’s death a few years ago).

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      As long as the reason for anyone’s leave is kept private — medical, bereavement, family, miscarriage — it’s fine to add a new bucket. The reason for leave should never be made public, but can be beneficial from an HR administrative POV for what support/time might be necessary. Normal bereavement is typically 3 days in my experience (just enough time to attend a funeral), but that’s far too little for something like a miscarriage, and depending on the circumstances might not qualify for a medical leave. At least they’re trying, and acknowledging that more time is needed. I don’t think it should be treated the same as any other time off.

    4. ferrina*

      Could this be part of short term disability? Physically and mentally healing (or caring for someone that is healing?)? I wouldn’t have a “miscarriage leave”, since even asking for it would put some people in a really difficult place.

      Sidenote: you should def allow a day of bereavement for a pet. I’m a mess when a beloved pet dies, and you don’t want me working like that.

    5. Alexis Rosay*

      Yeah, in the past, I’ve taken medical leave to deal with a miscarriage. I definitely did not feel that there needed to be a separate bucket for it. My workplace provided plenty of medical leave so adding to the package wouldn’t have made a difference. All I told my boss was that I was dealing with some “bad health news” that would need some time off to deal with, and as a decent person he accepted that immediately and didn’t ask for more information.

      I feel like having miscarriage leave is asking people to disclose that they had a miscarriage, which feels uncomfortable to me. In my case, my miscarriages happened way before I was showing and no one at work knew I was pregnant, so it would have been pretty awful to have to disclose that. Having to tell my boss would be like saying “I am trying to get pregnant and having a hard time with it” which is the last thing I would have wanted him to know.

      I think the most important thing is that the company should have good medical leave and trust employees to know when to use it.

    7. fhqwhgads*

      I may not have this correct, but I was under the impression part of the push for it to be separate is that the expected recovery time is longer than either: the required minimum sick leave in any state or the generally provided bereavement leave. So the thinking is that while, yeah, you could use your sick days or you could use bereavement, it’s likely neither would be enough? Or something like that.
      Personally I’d prefer if we all had more sick days across the board, but the positioning of this – when I’ve heard it – was basically a way to address this specific circumstance without doing that. So if the options are whatever the current sick/bereavement is, that’s all you’ve got OR some new separate bucket, I’ll take the separate bucket if that’s the only way to get CEOs on board.

  139. ..Kat..*

    My work uniforms (scrubs) smell. I sweat a lot during my 12 hour shifts. As such, I have bought scrubs that are made from light weight, wicking, quick dry material (similar to athletic gear). I machine wash and dry them. But they no longer smell clean. I have tried special detergents and additives that are supposed to help with this. But, the only ones I have found leave behind a strong scent – and the musty smell is still there underneath the scent. I am allergic to these scents. My nose runs, my eyes are red and itchy. And even if I could tolerate these scents, they are unacceptable for a bedside nurse. Perfumes and scented products are not allowed. They can make our patients feel worse than they already do.

    Any suggestions for effective laundry detergents or additives? Borax, vinegar, and vodka do not work.

        1. Roberta*

          Once those smells are in, you basically can’t get them out. Just toss the lot and buy new ones. And wash them properly.

          1. ..Kat..*

            Got it. The problem is that I am going through a lot of scrubs: buy new scrubs, try new detergent, new detergent does not work, scrubs smell awful. And repeat with new scrubs in a month.

            But, it looks like I am getting some good suggestions for new products and techniques to try.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Have you tried an enzymatic cleaner? I’ve had good luck with those and getting ingrained sweat stains out of athletic gear & cotton shirts.

    3. Ginger Baker*

      Did you try the whole laundry stripping thing? That’s the only thing I can think of (or, maybe, Oxyclean long soak?); hopefully someone else has some direct experience and can chime in.

    4. Dog mom*

      Have you tried Borax? I used to use it on my dog’s towels and bedding and it took the gross smells out pretty well.

    5. Reba*

      Ok this touches on one of my little obsessions so thank you for the chance to talk about laundry.

      The synthetic “wicking” materials used in a lot of athletic clothes help you feel drier than cotton, but they actually get smellier with body odor due to the types of microbes that can live in them. It’s science! You might try some testing to see if non-athletic-fabric scrubs are better or worse on this score.

      These fabrics also usually require cold or warm washing, so the body substances don’t get washed off as well. If your clothes can take hotter, that is worth a try.

      I also hate laundry scents, and I highly recommend HEX detergent and Dropps Stain and Odor pods, which both have unscented versions. They won’t take truly stanky clothes back to like-new condition, but I think they are great for regular maintenance. I have not tried, but am curious about, the Defunkify line. There is also a spray laundry supplement called “Biofilm Buster” (yes, gross) that is a bit expensive but the reviews look good and the theory of an enzyme spray makes sense (see microbes above).

      Good luck!

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        I love Lume deodorant and they just came out with a biofilm buster too – mine’s being shipped as we speak and I am so excited to try it on my athleisure clothes.

    6. Anon for No Reason*

      I use white vinegar and extra rinse cycles. What also helps when you buy new scrubs? Air dry them. Because once body odors are hot dried in they are hard to get out. So it might be good to start from scratch.

      Vinegar doesn’t always work for my partner’s clothes. So for those, I’ve used the Grab Green fragrance free bleach alternative pods, even on colored clothes. I only use the unscented pods. And I’ve used scented detergents (only like once a year for smells that really won’t go and I’ve washed four times repeatedly) from Canada’s Attitude household product line which makes natural and fragrance free products. I am super sensitive to smells so even this I use sparingly.

      My partner also drinks liquid chlorophyll which reduces body odors within a week. Just a few drops in water a day. We found a minty, extra strength brand on Amazon.

    7. Prefer my pets*

      I periodically fill a plastic tub in the bathtub with hot water, dish soap, a ton of vinegar, swish them around, and let sit overnight. Then I do a wash cycle with an extra rinse. (Make sure to rinse most of the mixture off before putting in your washing machine…check youtube for entertaining/horrifying videos of dish soap in washers)

      For some reason, liquid fabric softeners make odors stick worse to my favorite clothes so I don’t use that anymore.

      I love oxiclean for stains, but it seems to be best for odors on natural materials rather than synthetic.

    9. KAZ2Y5*

      As a fellow scrub wearer, I sympathize. I have a couple of suggestions. Do you wear layers – like a t-shirt under your scrub top? That might confine the smell to the t-shirt and that is a lot less expensive to replace than a good pair of scrubs!
      Also, have you tried Lysol Laundry Sanitizer? I found this about the time Covid hit. It was hard to find at the time, so I would ration it and only use with my scrubs but I now use it with everything. You use this instead of fabric softener and I think it is great!
      Good luck, I hope you find something that works!

    10. RagingADHD*

      It isn’t always possible due to weather, but putting them out on the line, inside out, in the sun, works wonders. If possible I’d sun them before washing and line dry them after.

      We used to hang out non-washable theater costumes, like elaborate dance outfits or heavy velvet doublets, because they couldn’t be sent off for dry cleaning during the show run.

      They could go a month without stinking.

    11. MacGillicuddy*

      Do you have a front-loading washer? Many of them have problems with mildew/mold around the door gasket.

      Look online for ways to clean the gasket, also for how to get mildew smell out of clothes

    12. Policy Wonk*

      I use backing soda in the laundry to get rid of smells, Need more for my kid’s smelly athletic wear then standard BO smells, but it really helps. Depending on the clothing I sometimes also spray stain remover in the armpits and other areas where the smells are especially strong.

      *I’ve also heard of people using vinegar instead of baking soda, but haven’t tried it myself.

      1. Policy Wonk*

        *Note – there have been times when I have had to wash a couple of times to get the smell out. And for really bad uniforms I have made a paste of baking soda and applied directly to the worst-smelling area.

        And apologies for raising vinegar, I saw you already tried that. Good luck!

  140. MiloSpiral*

    Can I negotiate for a later start date, even if I already said I could start earlier?

    So, I got a verbal job offer today (hooray!), through a temp agency. I’ve been working with this temp agency for a couple months now, and last week I wrote to my recruiter to let them know that I gave notice at my current job. My last day is 3/3 and over the phone she suggested a potential start date of 3/7, which I agreed to. (This was before I ever got a job offer: she wanted to know approximately how soon I could start so that she could let clients know.)

    Fast forward to today and I’m now realizing that four days is very little turnaround time for myself to start a new job, especially considering that the job I’m leaving is miserable, sapped me of energy, and will take a while to recover from, emotionally and professionally. I’d like to ask the recruiter if it’s possible to push the start date out by a week, but I’m afraid to look wishy-washy. Thoughts?

    Some important context: I interviewed for two positions with this temp agency before landing this one. The first I decided was not for me and told my recruiter so, and the second I initially expressed interest in after the interview, but then called my recruiter the next day to tell her that I had changed my mind. She talked me back into it (luckily I did not get that job), and although my relationship with this recruiter is positive overall, I’m concerned that saying no after two interviews (and one “no” being a mind change) might have used up what cache I could have used to make this start date request.

    1. I was told there would be llamas*

      I would ask. She might say she already told the client and they really want you to start 3/3 but I see no harm in asking.

    2. ferrina*

      Yes, I’d ask. I usually recommend giving yourself a week between jobs to clear the mind and refocus on the new job (and of course deal with the burn out from the old one).
      But be apologetic and/or be willing to negotiate. They may have already lined up your trainings.

  141. Jacey*

    A question for people who work with families, especially fellow librarians or folks in education:

    How do you deal with a parent belittling or ignoring their kid’s wants/needs right in front of you? I recently had a situation where a mother talked over her (very eloquent!) 8-9 yo daughter and asked me to find “good, moral” books for her to read instead of the book she wanted (which had PG/PG-13 violence and romance).

    In the moment, I just steered the daughter to a book that shared some elements with the story she wanted (namely dragons) that didn’t have any violence or romance in it. (It does, however, have a plot line about how parents aren’t always right about who you are and what you can do, which I hope resonates with this kid!)

    Does anyone have a better idea for how to handle these situations? I don’t think confronting the parent would be the right move, but I felt awful going along with the invalidation of a child’s clearly stated wishes.

    1. Pascall*

      I think you handled it beautifully. Find some sort of compromise that can still more-or-less abide by the parent’s wishes, but provide something that can still excite the kid with something they may want.

      Unfortunately, there’s not much intervention you can take unless the child is actually in some sort of danger, but I think being quietly influential and showing them that there are plenty of books available to them – even with more strict parents – keeps them excited to read. And hopefully they’ll be able to expand their personal favorite books over time with your help. Maybe if you know you get a lot of parents like that, see if you can research a go-to list of still fun and exciting books that you can default to that meet those kinds of requirements that come up frequently.

    2. Squeebird*

      I think you did the right thing in the moment – finding something that both the child and parent can be happy with. That’s ideal! And in a one-off situation, as much as you might disagree with the parent, there is not much else that I think you can or should do.

      If this is a family you see often and they ask for your recommendations and reading advice, you may find opportunities to talk about the importance of reading choice and allowing kids to pick some of their own material in the context of cultivating literacy and lifelong reading. But they won’t be receptive to that conversation if they feel you are criticizing their parenting or their values, so I would definitely work on that relationship building first and resist the urge to “confront”. That’s a great way to drive that family away from the library, which is the opposite of what you want.

      You can also make a point of talking to kids directly and addressing them along with their parents – it sends the message that you are not ignoring them and that their opinion is important. Often the kid is too shy or doesn’t want to talk to you if their parent is there, but I think it’s important to acknowledge them even if that’s the case.

      Parents at our library make reading and media choices for their kids that I disagree with all the time – and in a public library, where we serve families with diverse backgrounds, values, cultures, and dynamics, that’s a given! There’s the guy who only wanted classics because modern books were too woke (ugh). The lady who forced her miserable kid to do math worksheets all summer. The parents who let their 5 year old watch Deadpool. Anyone who likes Caillou (lol). You kind of just… have to deal with it. We can educate, make recommendations, support as we can – but ultimately we are not acting in place of the parent.

      1. Agnes*

        Honestly, that doesn’t sound particularly belittling to me. If the mother had asked for a book with a strong social justice angle (i.e. good and moral), would you have been upset?

        1. HBJ*

          Agreed. I don’t see anything wrong with a parent directing and screening reading choices for a child of that age. I don’t think that’s belittling at all. And PG/PG-13 literally means “parental guidance.” That parent was giving their guidance. It’s literally a parent’s JOB to often ignore their child’s wants and make choices for them. My children would only eat bread and dessert three meals a day if I let them. It’s my job to ignore that want and not allow it.

          1. Jacey*

            I see your point very much there! I definitely think parents have the right and obligation to set up limits with their kids. I definitely didn’t disapprove of the mom’s objection to her kid reading a particular book; I was just unsure how to make the kid feel her voice was valued when her mom was literally talking over her.

        2. RagingADHD*

          Agreed. I love my kids to read, and now that they’re teens they have the run of the place, but I would have a problem with PG-13 for my 8 year old, particularly romance, as I didn’t want my little girl’s heads filled with messages that they are defined by their looks, or that their lives are defined by whether boys like them.

          Teens are struggling with certain types of angst and self-consciousness that younger kids don’t, and I didn’t want to seed that idea.

          I would have a huge problem with a librarian who was judgy about my values and what I think is important in raising my kids.

          1. Jacey*

            I certainly don’t mean to come across as judgy of parenting choices! I have no issue at all with the mom deciding she’s not comfortable with her kid reading certain material. I was just struck by the way she dealt with the situation: literally talking over her kid, only acknowledging the other adult in the conversation.

        3. They Don’t Make Sunday*

          The OP said that the mother was talking over her (very eloquent) child. The first line was a question about how to handle it when you work in a helping or educating profession and a parent belittles/ignores their kid’s wants/needs right in front of you. The question is about the dismissive treatment of the child.

          OP, I think you handed it really well! To Squeebird’s point, you also could make a point of addressing the child directly and asking her more about her favorites.

          1. Jacey*

            Thanks, TDMS! That’s what I was trying to get at: the dismissiveness. I don’t think the mom’s actual wants were in anyway wrong or unusual (even if “moral” isn’t my favorite way she could have gotten her point across).

        4. Jacey*

          Agnes, I see your point… but that’s actually why I didn’t like her phrasing of “good, moral” to mean something that fits her internal idea of suitability. I resented her assuming that I had her exact moral standards and that she didn’t need to elaborate further. I actually had to prompt her to tell me what she didn’t like about the kid’s first choice book.

          But that’s kind of a side issue. My question was about how to make the kid feel valued when they’re being literally talked over.

      2. Jacey*

        I appreciate the advice to build a relationship! I often try to do that just because it helps families feel comfortable and welcome returning to the library and asking for whatever they need, but you’ve added a new dimension to my thinking.

    3. As a Parent and Someone Who Has Worked in Education*

      I think your response was fine, with the caveat that if the parent was actually belittling the child, I would make sure to say something encouraging (PARENT: stupid kid only wants to read books about cats. How dumb is that? YOU: lots of kids at this age are fixated on reading one particular topic; it’s important that, when possible, reading is fun for a child. How about if we try to broaden their horizons a bit by trying this book about cats and architects? Or this one about cats and outer space?). Otherwise, parents do have the right to put limits on what their own children read/watch/listen to…basically everything. Especially children that age. For example, I wouldn’t have let my 8 year old watch PG-13 movies (unless I’d seen it myself and knew it would be OK for them). I was going to say that the parent may have a very good reason (like, when my kid read horror stories, they would be anxious for days) but it doesn’t matter, because they shouldn’t have to explain their rationale to you. If a child told you they wanted a cookie and the mom said no, would you give them one? You are in such a great place to help the child navigate between what they want and what their parent wants for them. As it is, the parent is developing trust in you as you help them thru these choices. I think you did well.

      1. Jacey*

        Thank you, and I appreciate the advice about when to speak up versus when to defer to the parent’s judgement. I’ll admit that her particular phrasing (“moral”) bugged me, but I definitely think it’s her prerogative to set limits for her kid!

    4. A Wall*

      I think you handled that very well.

      When I worked with parents and kids like this, I would try to steer us all down the path the kid was trying to go for while gassing up the parent as if that was what they had also asked for. You’d be shocked how often you can accomplish this by excitedly going in the kid’s direction while telling the parent that it’s SO great that the kid wants that, you can tell they are SO smart/good/clever/etc., way to go mom/dad for having such a clever kid! What a great idea to give them this book they’re asking for, mom! You are sooo right!

      In one of my jobs that wouldn’t apply in a lot of situations since I was providing necessary services to the family. It wasn’t as choice-based as, say, something in the library might be. But I would come across a lot of parents who would belittle their kids’ feelings or needs in our meetings, and it sucked to see. In those situations, I would still praise the kid to their parents where the kid would hear, and I would essentially be reassuring the parents that I thought their kid was great and that whatever behavior they were needling them on was actually totally normal and fine. I would essentially make a point of communicating to the parent that, hey, I know you feel like your kid is not doing great right now, but all of us who see these kids all day think yours is perfectly lovely and you should be very proud of them! Like, look how great your kid is! They are behaving perfectly / they are smart and kind / their choices are good choices! Don’t you want to say NICE things to them? Both trying to reassure the kid that we all thought good things about them and trying to direct their parents to speak kindly to them.

      For example I had a mom whose daughter would cry during a lot of our visits because they were very overwhelming to her, and the mom was always embarrassed by it and expressed that by belittling her and acting like she was very unreasonable for this (totally normal, very common) reaction. I couldn’t just tell her to be nice to her kid about it, and I could tell that embarrassment for her daughter crying in front of me was the main thing motivating the mom to do this. Naturally we would reshape these visits to try to make the daughter more comfortable and would work with her very gently to try to make her feel as safe as we possibly could, but on top of that I would always sympathize with her and praise her behavior even more than I normally would, specifically to get mom to chill out. And I would praise her directly to mom, too, talk about what a great kid she was and how she was so good even though our visits are so stressful, that she handles it so well, etc. I remember mom looked surprised the first time, but it did seem to help her stop criticizing her daughter’s emotions in the visit itself. Who knows if it helped outside of there, but I hope so.

  142. fakelondoner*

    Really ticked off this week – I am really snowed under in my current role but feel a bit trapped. I started off as a contractor for content writing, but was later brought on as an employee to do project management (we’re a consulting firm). Have been an employee now for a year. But my role has kind of snowballed into resource management, HR tasks, pastoral care for employees, side of desk project work, AND content writing/editing as many of our other project officers are not strong writers so I have to re-write most of their work before it goes out to clients. Six employees report directly into me (we have eight employees total including myself). And my boss only pays me to work four days a week—this is the case with everyone and he likes to give ephemeral “time for passion projects” reasoning, but deep down it’s because he can’t afford to pay anyone full time wages. But the amount of work I have usually translates to spending at least some of my “day off” monitoring Slack and tying up loose ends.

    The work I do that I most enjoy is HR tasks, and I’m currently pursuing a CIPD certification (my boss is paying) to learn more. But we really need more in terms of resources, especially content writing. I just don’t have the time, but other team members who rely on written content are now side-eyeing me and asking if we “really need” an HR person at all. To my face! I see it as all orgs need someone responsible for HR in the way that all offices need a fire warden (at the moment, almost all of our policies, from maternity leave to sick pay, can be summed up as “Google what is the legal minimum we have to offer and just do that”), but I’m feeling super undervalued and I’m hoping I can finish my CIPD training soon so I can go to a bigger org that can pay me more to do one job, as opposed to now where I’m paid a pittance to work five jobs at once. At least I’m fully WFH… but right now that feels like the only good thing I can say. When I brought up a pay rise, my boss deflected it by saying I’m not a “revenue generating” member of staff. Any advice? Or just anyone in a similar boat and want to commiserate with me?

    1. WellRed*

      Care less and do less (what does pastoral care have to with your actual job ffs?). Don’t work for free and ask what to prioritize for work. Your boss does not give a shot about what you do or he would not have been so dismissive.

    2. MiloSpiral*

      Ugh. First off, I’m so sorry. This sounds awful! I am currently leaving a similar “snowball” position and it was the worst professional experience I’ve had thus far. It. Sucks. I see you feeling trapped and stressed, and I also see you building your own boat out of there (getting training, knowing you’re worth more than you’re paid and dreaming of getting to a bigger org where hopefully you’ll get that recognition). Go you!

      But seriously: time for passion projects? L O L. I can’t imagine you have much energy to do basic tasks of everyday living after doing five jobs for four days, let alone “passion projects.”

      One line in your comment stood out to me:

      Many of our other project officers are not strong writers so I have to re-write most of their work before it goes out to clients. Six employees report directly into me (we have eight employees total including myself)

      So…. your huge workload definitely sounds like your boss’ poor management and unreasonable expectations, for sure. However. When you say you “have to re-write most of their work…” who says you have to? Does it perhaps not reach your standards? If that’s the case, fine—but if you’re managing most of the employees in this place, then you can—and should—provide them with feedback so that they can improve the quality of their work. Are you doing this? Or are you so snowed down with work that it feels like it would take less time to just do it yourself, rather than to coach them?

      I say this because I also worked in a very small organization, and while I didn’t have any direct employee reports, I supervised volunteers and could have delegated more tasks to them. At tiny organizations where everyone is overworked, I think the “if you want a job done right, do it yourself” line of thinking is very common. But it’s poison to actually getting things done.

      But maybe that’s not what you’re experiencing, or maybe, even if you delegated to others, you’d still be overwhelmed—honestly, with everything you’re doing, it sounds like you would. Your boss is horrible at workforce planning, and that’s not a problem that gets fixed overnight. More importantly, that’s not a problem you can fix, at least not without your boss’ buy in, and it doesn’t sound like you’re going to get that anytime soon.

      Get out. You’re not valued here. You are giving them more value than they are paying you for—and worse, they are squandering it. An employee who works five different jobs, four days a week, is not able to do anything as well as they could if they had only a few responsibilities to focus on. And nothing says more clearly to me how little your boss sees your value than this sentence right here:

      When I brought up a pay rise, my boss deflected it by saying I’m not a “revenue generating” member of staff.

      Your boss has an incredibly myopic view of his own organization, and doesn’t understand the bigger picture. (Also, you’re writing/editing content on top of everything else—how is that not revenue-generating?! But I digress.) You can clearly see the big picture, and you can see beyond this organization. Get out.

  143. Lilac Rose*

    I am a teacher, and for a few years, I’ve been on an administration track. However, I have kids, and with things that have been going on in my personal life, I’ve realized that this isn’t the right time in my life to go into administration. I have decided I want to take a step back from leadership and go back into a teaching position. Any tips on how I can break this to my boss, and then to the staff? A complicating factor is that both of my administrators are leaving, so I have been seen as the sole stabilizing force in our leadership team going into next year.

    1. MiloSpiral*

      I would say speak up now: the earlier you do this, the easier it will be for them to change their plans (and you’re less likely to be shunted into a role that you know you don’t want right now.) The longer you wait, the harder it will be for you to actually break the news.

      What you say, I think, depends on how you feel about it. Because I would be honest about how you feel. For instance you might say to your boss, “I need to discuss something important with you. I know for the past few years I’ve been on track to take over the Senior Teapot Administrator role. I’ve realized recently that, although that path was in line with my future career plans, my priorities have changed and this role no longer fits my plans. I feel really torn about this, but I wanted to tell you sooner rather than later, so that we have time to make different plans.” And then, if you mean it: “I’d be happy to help hire and train the person who takes over the position; it would be great to pass on all that I’ve learned these past few years.”

      But again: it depends on if you actually feel any of this! I think expressing regret would probably soften the blow, but if you can’t honestly say that you regret this change, then maybe you want to take that out.

  144. Candi*

    If the question-only format works out, would it be at all possible to still have workplace story threads on occasion? I like those, especially the updates, and draw lessons from them.

  145. Pascall*

    Quick question on salary: I’m currently making $42,000/yr (which really comes out to somewhere around $37k with benefits taken out) and I’m looking for jobs since my COL is going up by a good amount this summer.

    I’m giving out ranges between $62k – $80k, depending on the position and the level of work described, but every position I’ve applied to, I’m qualified for and have every confidence I could do. But at the same time I’m wondering if that would seem too ambitious for someone who is currently making only $42k.

    Not sure if this is some kind of imposter syndrome talking or if it really is an uncouth thing that would make me seem out of touch if they knew my current salary (which is viewable on our website as my current employer publicly posts ranges for all positions). Not that many might go out of their way to research it, but that’s the worry anyway.

    For the record, my rent is escalating to somewhere around $1300 for a 2 bedroom apartment, I have a car payment of $300 a month after an accident which totaled my paid-off car in October (not at fault for it!), student loans will be kicking back in around then at $200 a month, and utilities/internet cost me another $200-300 a month. Right now I’m barely scraping by and would like to not worry about living “paycheck to paycheck” and actually start saving money.

    I guess I’m just looking for a reality check if there’s one to give! I’m turning 31 this year and feel like it’s time to start advocating for myself more, knowing my skillset.

    1. Pascall*

      Additional context: One role I applied for specified a minimum salary of $95,000 and while I’m not holding my breath because WOW that salary, I was bold and asked for it anyway. That might be why I’m second guessing it haha.

      1. Get that bag*

        You don’t have to justify your desire for a more comfortable living at all! I’m sure you’ll find lots of resources, including here on AAM about negotiating salary. I think a good tactic is not to name a number until you absolutely have to, ask for the budget range for the position, do your research, know what you want, and educate yourself about the laws in your state. Many more are prohibiting employers from asking for your past salary, so it’s immaterial how much of a bump you are getting. Just figure out the appropriate range for your role, experience, industry, and stick to that!

        1. Pascall*

          Thanks! Only a few applications asked for my ideal salary range and I kept it fairly wide with options for negotiation based on other benefits/flexibility they could afford. So I haven’t felt too pinned down with anything. And none have asked me for my current salary. I just know it’s publicly available if someone REALLY wanted to find out lol. But thank you for the reassurance! I’m glad to know I’m not super crazy. My current skillset can go into nonprofits or private sector, but it’s fairly niche and worth a lot with the right subset of project management skills, so I feel like the ranges I’m giving are fair.

          I just wanna not worry about money finally! It’ll be nice.

      2. I was told there would be llamas*

        That does seem like quite a jump but if you are qualified and that’s what the market rate is, then great! I would probably start looking for all of Alison’s advice on how to avoid giving out your current salary so you don’t get lowballed!

        1. Pascall*

          Yeah I’ve been avoiding giving out my current salary and for the most part, no one has asked. I just know it’s out there if someone really wanted to find out, but I’m not going to offer it openly if I can help it. It’s not illegal to ask for in Texas, but I’m pretty wildly underpaid anyway, so I’m hoping that gives me some leverage. My boss and grandboss both wanted to promote me, but given my employer’s strict funding rules and guidelines, they don’t do merit raises and promotions are a WHOLE ordeal that have to get approved by multiple layers. With COVID effecting business, they said they couldn’t reclassify any positions, so unfortunately, I’m left to job search. But I’ve got my boss advocating for me, regardless if I stay or go. Just hoping to have good leverage to ask for what I’m worth.

          Thank you!

    2. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      I wouldn’t give any salary range at an early stage. This process has nothing to do with your current salary – don’t discuss that. It has everything to do with what new salary employers are willing to offer you (what the market will bear) and what new salary would make you accept and leave your current job. Highly preferable to have reliable data on actual current salaries for the new position, so that you are being realistic.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Your current salary should be irrelevant.
      You’re looking at getting market rate for the jobs you’re interviewing and qualified for. Period.

  146. Weegie*

    Did anyone else see the story about the Madbird jobfishing scam earlier this week? (I’ll post a link to it in a reply.) I’m really hoping people can point me to any other jobfishing stories they’re aware of, or have personally experienced.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I’ve seen a lot of fake job ads, which tend to be check cashing scams. The salary offered is always far beyond the hours/job title. They talk about being out of town or setting up a new office and sending ahead a check for expenses.

    3. mreasy*

      This story is bonkers because it’s so hard to figure out the motive…and it’s SO elaborate. I felt so awful for all those employees.

      1. Weegie*

        Bonkers is the word for it – it’s just crying out for its own podcast. In fact the first season of the Chameleon podcast featured a not completely dissimilar story about a fake agent sending creatives to non-existent movie jobs across the globe. I’m wondering whether these are truly isolated instances or if there are others of similar complexity.

  147. JORTS HALL*

    GUYS THE COMPANY THAT REACHED OUT TO ME LAST WEEK OFFERED.

    Has anyone negotiated relocation before? I can use some tips

  148. Cupcake*

    Help! My deputy director owes me $37. On Wednesday he gave me a $100 bill to buy lunch for a meeting. I went to the lunch place and they refused to take the $100. I paid for the lunch with my debit card. I explained what happened and that I paid myself and returned the hundred. The DD said he would break the hundred and pay me back. Then later in the day he asked if he could pay me tomorrow because he forgot to break the hundred. I said ok. Well today, he has not paid me back. He just left and today is his birthday, so I did not bring it up as he was leaving. I wanted to just submit a request for payment via petty cash. But my boss, the Director and the DD’s boss, said its not a business expense, so I cannot get a pretty cash reimbursement. I am new, about 5 months on the job and lowest on the org chart. What should I do next?

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Your DD doesn’t realize that the $37 that is probably nothing in his daily expenses, might be the choice of not paying a utility bill or going hungry for you. If your boss is a decent person, they should pay you from their personal pocket, and have the DD owe them when he returns. Depends on your relationship, but you could point out you are the lowest paid person and this is a BIG DEAL amount to you and you can’t wait until whenever DD is back; can they please step up?

      I think if this happens again, you should keep the $100 until you can get enough cash for the change and explain why the delay. You’re not giving him back the whole $100 so you don’t really need to “break” it, you just need to figure out how much should be returned and keep/deposit the rest. I guess I’m assuming the change returned is less than $40 for an office lunch, you can reasonably return the change within 24hrs, and you can feel safe doing this.

    3. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      Remind him, straight up, via email. “I asked my boss about getting a reimbursement for the lunch that you requested for that meeting (the one where I had to pay with my debit card because they wouldn’t break your $100 dollar bill) but my boss said it wasn’t a business expense. Could you reimburse me?”

  149. Anonynon*

    I am honestly at a loss over how to deal with my former manager, same department, gaslighting me with compliments which only turn into more work, but with no reward? They now head up project management for our company and I find myself being included in many of them because “no one else can be trusted to do abc correctly or you know the most about xyz”. They would do the same as my manager, so I ended up having ownership of the administration, maintenance and support after go live. And yet, when it came to my performance review, I would get 3.5 out of 5 though I was a high performer and contributor. The work I do spans many areas but my title reflects only a portion. My most recent boss left the organization but not before he gave me two stellar reviews and I only worked with him a year. I just feel like such a sucker and yet can’t say no when asked to be part of these projects. I hope to take what I’ve gleaned and turn it into a way to get into consulting but need to stay for a few more years to get my full pension. I am also hoping for an opportunity to say no at some point, I can’t be the path of least resistance forever.

    1. Kathenus*

      I’m sorry, that’s a hard place to be. I don’t know about ideas on getting them to improve the reward part, but on the more work it could be helpful to reframe your responses to them.

      Them – “Anonynon you are the only person who has the skills to do this project, so we need you to take point on it”

      You – “Of course, I’m happy to do the project. Since I have a full plate now, which projects should I delegate or deprioritize since I won’t have time to do them all and new project”

      If they say you have to do it all, be clear that you can only add new project if you either lose other tasks or do them at a lower level. If they’d like to work with you on the prioritization, great; otherwise you’ll do the triage yourself and decide what needs to be divested/delayed/done to a lower level.

  150. Double Booker*

    I just realized I double-booked an interview for when I’m going to be out of town. It’s an interview with the president of the company. My train arrives in just as the interview would start.

    I don’t want to reschedule and seem flaky. I guess I could delay my trip but it’s a five hour train so that’s really losing a lot of time.

    I thought about taking a different train and trying it on the train itself, but the wifi might be iffy. I’m usually really available and only booked the train last night.

    Any suggestions? Is it a ding against me if I reschedule. We confirmed at about 1:00pm today.

    1. Kathenus*

      I think you can reference the train schedule to ask to see if a new interview time is available. Let them know that once you had the interview time finalized you went to book your train but the available schedule conflicts with the start time. Think about realistically how long it would take you from the train arrival to being able to start the interview, and ask if something at that time or after is available, and apologize for the inconvenience. I think this is pretty understandable and at least if it was me I’d never take offense at a situation like this.

  151. Joni*

    Work wardobe question: I accidentally ordered a pair of ponte pants (loose leg, not tights) that I thought were more standard women’s trousers. (I’ll admit I was careless and had forgotten what “ponte” meant.) I’ll be going back to my business casual workplace next week, and my first thought is that they wouldn’t be appropriate there, but I’m not 100% sure. Any thoughts before I return them this weekend?

    https://www.macys.com/shop/product/charter-club-cambridge-pull-on-ponte-pants-regular-short-lengths-created-for-macys?ID=11209947

    2. Formerly in HR*

      I would wear these at work (where we only have business casual on Fridays, but in all my years there what I saw was skirt/trousers + shirt/blouse for women, trousers + shirt for men, maybe suits for higher-ups, jeans on Friday). They are not tights, nor lycra, or see-through, so if they fit you well and you fell comfortable, go for it!

    3. Choggy*

      I pretty much only wear these type of pants to work. They are comfortable and still look professional when paired with a nice blouse and sweater.

  152. Oh, the POSSIBILITIES!**

    Last week, I sought advice on how to best use the opportunity to speak with a hiring manager before applying for a promotion. I took the advice and applied for the job, but have not heard back anything yet. Instead, I got a job offer from another company! I love my job and feel torn because I would be doing similar work for more money, a higher title, and better benefits. There is no funding for my position and I’ve been waiting for over a month to hear how long the funding will last. What can I say to the company that offered me a job to buy me some time?

    And how do I ask for more money given this situation: I originally interviewed for a different position that the new company did not offer me. Instead, they referred me to a position at a similar level (coordinator) and the interview went well. During the interview, they said the pay for both was about the same, which is great. Now I am happy to learn that they are offering me the job at a manager level instead of a coordinator level, which is even more good news. How do I tactfully ask for whether the duties have changed with the higher title? How do I ask for more money given the higher title if the duties have not changed? Thank you!

  153. T3chie*

    It’s been a long time since I’ve posted here (past couple years haven’t been that great but then again seems a lot of people are in that boat). However, I just had an interview this week that I was unsure about as the job looked like it paid only marginally better than where I am but, due to a number of factors, would have actually meant I’d lose money (and I’m already being paid peanuts at current place). I am so glad I interviewed with them though! I’d still be doing the same role but the job removes a lot of stressful parts in my current one AND I got clarification on the salary and it was actually based on another range which means even on the lower end I’d be making almost 5k more a year than current place AND be less stressed out. I’m trying so hard to put it out of my mind/not get my hopes up as I’ve been trying to find a new position for 2+ years with no luck, that this feels almost too good to be true and REALLY hope I can land this one!

  154. Truffula*

    My boss talks to me in a very negative tone in front of other people and it has gotten to the point where I am embarrassed by it. I wrote it off at first, but it kept happening. I attend a regular group meeting with other functional heads, and my boss leads this meeting (because she is the uber-boss overseeing these functions). I don’t speak much at these meetings for good reason. When I say something, no matter what it is, my boss responds with this awful tone – like she is speaking to a child, in a disapproving, dismissive, negative tone. She has repeatedly responded to me this way in that forum. She doesn’t respond to others in the meeting this way — only me! It really doesn’t seem to matter what I say. The negative tone reply is always ready and given. And the reply is always to dismiss or disagree with whatever I said. I have gone through five consecutive meetings where this happened every time. I also should note that it is the tone that really disturbs me. I can accept that what I say is being dismissed or disagreed, but that tone… ug. It’s humiliating. At the last meeting, I very carefully said only one thing, one question, and I tried to keep my question very short, and my demeaner/tone very neutral. I asked “What will happen at the meetings?” [I asked about some new meetings she had scheduled that didn’t have an agenda and the purpose wasn’t clear] And I got the negative dismissive reply, like a child being scolded, dripping with disapproval. Later in the meeting, someone asked multiple testy questions, asked with agitation, and my boss answered those very calmly and diplomatically, and the person argued (and was obviously annoyed), but my boss continued to be very even-toned about it. I just don’t get it.

    So my question is: Should I bring this up with my boss in private, even when I don’t believe it will make a difference? When I speak with my boss one on one, I am very direct, and I have no problem talking to my boss, giving my opinions, and arguing when I don’t agree. That’s how I interact with her in *private* conversations (never in group meetings). But for some reason, I feel very reluctant to bring this issue up. I don’t believe my boss will stop doing this even if I bring it up, based on years of past experience dealing with her. I know her personality well. But I feel like I am being disrespected and undermined in front of my co-workers, and I shouldn’t let that go unremarked.

    1. MiloSpiral*

      Oof. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this! That sounds really embarrassing and stressful. On top of the embarrassment, you’re spending a lot of time in meetings weighing whether or not to speak up. That can’t be good for your ability to be attentive in these meetings, and it can’t be good for your emotional health at work.

      When you speak with your boss in private, are you diplomatic about when to push back on something you don’t agree on? Do you choose your battles? And how does your boss typically react to your direct style of communication: does she seem to welcome your feedback? Or does she attempt to shut you down in a similar way as she does in group meetings? It might be worth thinking back to past one-on-one interactions with her and assessing your behavior and her reactions. If your boss thinks that you are too difficult in one-on-one interactions, she might be trying to nip it in the bud in group meetings. Maybe she thinks that your direct communication style will undermine her in front of the other participants.

      To be clear, if that’s the case, she’s handling this very poorly. A good manager would have a conversation with you privately about their issues with how you are communicating with them. But the only way to know what exactly is the root of her behavior towards you is to ask.

      In that case, maybe take the Alison approach of asking your boss if there’s something you need to improve, and then addressing the issue of tone once you have her answer. If she brings up concerns, you can address them in the moment, and then you can say something about how her tone makes you feel. Tell her that it’s gotten to the point where you avoid speaking up in meetings! I’m sorry I don’t have scripts for you. Addressing issues of tone is so difficult because it’s not something really tangible that you can give examples of without imitating the tone back to them, which they can argue is not how they sound. I hope others will be able to help you with scripts, but I do think you should say something to your boss in private.

    2. Polly Hedron*

      I think that this is awful, too, and that MiloSpiral’s advice is worth a try.

      Has your boss always been nasty to you in meetings? Or did she use to be decent?

    3. ShinyPenny*

      My personal view is that your boss is behaving like an abusive partner. In this type of situation, the victim does not actually have the power to change the core problem. But the victim never wants to believe this, and is often willing to tie themselves in terrible knots in endless efforts to “fix the problem.” (Nothing the victim does can “fix the problem.”)
      I’m so sorry. Your boss has chosen ABUSING YOU as their strategy for feeling empowered and competent. Bystanders are afraid to intervene because they are (legitimately) afraid of joining you in being targeted.
      You might want to spend some time researching domestic abuse, or even calling a hotline. It’s really hard to leave, but that abusive person is intentionally working every day to make you feel small, incompetent, and helpless (because that’s how they feel big, powerful, and awesome).
      I hope you are able to leave.

      1. ShinyPenny*

        Just wanted to add: you cannot “fix” this, but also *you did not cause this* so I hope you are not wasting energy “looking for what you did wrong.”
        You can, going forward, get better at identifying red flags– so you can extricate yourself sooner if you encouner such a person again.
        But none of this is because of you. You just happened to be the innocent person standing nearby when your boss felt bad feelings and wanted to feel better feelings. They feel better after they harm you.
        Your only error is thinking they are a regular person having a bad day, and building your strategy on that foundation.
        I’m so sorry you got a boss like this. But there are a safe, kind bosses/workplaces out there, and you deserve one of those.

    4. Maryloo*

      I’m sorry for your situation with your boss . But your boss is an ass and I’m not sure you can fix it.

      I once had a boss who, if you had to give a presentation to the team, would meet with you ahead of time to go over the presentation and discuss it with you. Then when you gave the presentation to the group, this boss would light into you with all sorts of criticism about what you were presenting. And the boss had not brought up ANY of these issues when you went over the presentation ahead of time.

      In your one-on-one meetings you bring up to your boss how she talks to you in meetings, she will deny doing anything wrong and blame you for “misinterpreting”.

      Polish up your resume and apply for other jobs. Your boss is not going to even acknowledge her behavior, let alone change it.

  155. Bart*

    My job as a Dean at a small college is awful. I spend my day dealing with personnel issues or being the target of disrespectful attacks that I don’t have the power to address. We are so understaffed that I have no real administrative assistance help and HR just makes me handle everything on my own. I have worked here as a faculty member for a long time before becoming the Dean. I can’t tell if I hate being in higher Ed or if I just hate it HERE. When I talk about finding a new Dean position everyone says that it will be just like my current institution (so why bother leaving). Other who work at small colleges—are the faculty always vicious? Are Deans just expected to take constant abuse? When I read AAM I think maybe it just need to try a new institution, but moving around is foreign to me so it feels terribly risky, particularly if I end up at another place like this one. What recommendations do you have for me?

    1. AcademiaAnonymous*

      I’m so sorry. Deans are middle managers and are often caught between the faculty and the administration, which does mean a certain amount of everyone-is-unhappy-with-you. But what you are describing sounds much worse that the usual. I do sometimes think its harder to be a Dean in a college where you were a faculty member–sometimes other faculty don’t adjust to that change well. A fresh start in a place where you start out as Dean might be easier. I would encourage you to look around to at least see what other opportunities might be there. While higher ed in general is a mess these days, some institutions are certainly handling the mess better than others.

  156. Starling*

    I’m an artist. My spouse has a more technical job. They are trying to create an AI to ~sort of~ do what I do. They want me to chat with their team about my experience (maybe 90 mins tops).

    They were surprised when I asked about a consultancy fee. So – what *do* I charge??? This isn’t “helping a newbie”, which I would do gratis. It’s a billion dollar company making a product.

    And while, I could speak generally, but I do have some NDAs in place around my work. I was told I was less likely to be sued, if I do it for free, but the idea of yet another artist giving away my *thousands of hours* of experience makes me furious. Am I less of a target if I donate anything I make? I don’t know what sort of rate is fair.

    1. Filosofickle*

      My experience: I do a fair amount of research where I talk to experts/professionals with the goal of using their knowledge to improve products/services (so my client is benefiting materially from this time), and more often than not people come to us through connections and do give us their time for free. However, when we offer incentives or go through recruiters then participants are paid a fee ranging from a couple hundred to a thousand or so. If I were setting a fee for myself it would depend on the nature of the chat — I’d go high if I felt like I was offering them deep expertise or feedback that leads directly to building the thing (value based pricing), and lower if it was an exploratory conversation about the context / subject area more generally (time based pricing). You might actually have a wild number in your head if you listen for it.

      I have no idea about the NDA stuff, but you should be able to talk around sensitive info. If you have significant concerns it’d be reasonable to just bow out. Do you actually want to participate?

      1. Starling*

        Thanks for the answer!

        I’m not sure I do want to participate, actually – that’s a very perspective question. And of course I don’t have to, so maybe that’s the problem solved right there!

    2. mreasy*

      Can you have them make you an offer? If they are highly capitalized and you are going to offer crucial intel on their core product, this feels like a six figure ask.

  157. Cat*

    Hello, AskAManager-land! I was wondering, do you guys have any advice for a person trying to transition from one career (teaching) to…God, any other career? I’d really like to apply for non-teaching jobs, but I have no idea where to start. Do I need to rewrite my resume? How do I show that the skills I’ve gained from teaching are relevant in other settings?

    1. Policy Wonk*

      I am something of a broken record on this, but consider working for the government. There are jobs at all levels, local, state, federal. If you liked education but not teaching, how about education policy? If you taught a specific subject, like biology, seek a position in policy related to that field. I’m a fed, so send people to USA jobs – create a profile/resume, ask that it alert you to vacancies. Good luck!

  158. Addie*

    Since returning to the office several months ago, my team has worked on a hybrid schedule: 4 days in, 1 day working from home. However, our supervisor and one other colleague have consistently only come in on 2 of our team’s 4 assigned in-office days, while the rest of us are in all 4 days. No acknowledgement or explanation has been given for the disparity. (I have reason to believe that neither childcare nor ADA accommodations account for their regular absences.)

    Is there a good way for me (or a group) to raise this issue with our supervisor? About 85% of our team’s meetings and responsibilities remain virtual, so it is common to have entire days where we come in just to sit on Zoom from our offices, making the situation even more frustrating.

    I think it’s worth noting that our supervisor and the other coworker are both white men who have been at the company for many years, while all but one of the rest of our team members are women and/or people of color, many of whom are relatively new, so there are several intersectional power dynamics at play.

  159. awesome3*

    if you’re on call for a night shift, what is your routine? Do you try sleeping? Make it your daytime at home? Do you keep your work clothes on? Are you expected to wear business casual? If you get called in once and got back home, do you keep your work clothes on and stay awake in case you’re called in again? Any details super welcome!

    1. MissDisplaced*

      How late? If the call is like 9pm then casual is ok and dress clothes not expected.
      But this really depends on the culture of your company and also things like if you are presenting, or if there are clients involved. If you are presenting something significant to executives, you should probably go for somewhat more formal look like a dress shirt.

      1. awesome3*

        Overnight. The other staff will be in scrubs. My team wears business casual during the day shift, but I haven’t heard back yet if that is expected overnight.

  160. Ruth*

    For those who work in companies with annual pay adjustments- what are you hearing this year? My org sets an overall budget as a percent of total compensation- usually around 3%. They intentionally don’t frame it as a COLA adjustment, but that’s essentially what it is – most years. But with inflation where it currently is, 3% certainly won’t cut it! I could see them MAYBE going as high as 4, but I would be shocked to see them go higher. So essentially the entire org will likely be taking a paycut this year.

    What’s happening where you work?

    1. ecnaseener*

      My employer explicitly frames it as COLA, and we got 3% this year as opposed to 2-2.5% previously. Definitely not matching inflation.

  161. Won’t Work For Peanuts*

    Question: What is the reliable source online to determine market salary for a specific position in my area? My professional firm has been trying to hire a receptionist FOREVER, in a very high cost of living area (one of 5 most expensive areas in country). I’m pretty sure the issue is that they are lowballing the salary, and I’d like to be able to point the managing partner an authoritative resource for salary info in our area, and maybe fix this issue.

      1. Won’t Work For Peanuts*

        Thank you! Seems we are low, but not as much as I thought.

        Second question:
        Is it typical for the posted “salary range” to include the cost of benefits? E.g., my company will say “your pay will be X.” (I don’t know if they use the word “pay,” “salary,” “comp,” etc.)
        But then, they include the company’s contribution to health insurance for the employee and 401k matching, so that the actual paycheck is much lower. I’ve never had a company do that, and I know that caused us to lose at least one very good candidate.

        Does the salary range on payscale include benefits?

        1. mreasy*

          It is NOT normal to include cost of benefits in a posted salary range and it looks like intentional obfuscation to candidates.

        2. MiloSpiral*

          I’m glad you found it helpful! I believe Payscale only factors salary, bonuses, and other cash incentives into what they call “Total Pay”—when you did the assessment, did it ask you to factor in benefits that your organization was offering? I’ve never used the employer side, but on the employee side, when it assesses your current job or an offer, it asks about non-salary things like benefits.

        3. MiloSpiral*

          Oh also, totally agree with mreasy. It SUCKS that that’s how your company phrases pay. That goes against how most people understand a posted salary and it’s incredibly misleading.

          If you have any political capital at this company, I encourage you to push back on this ridiculous practice.

  162. Polopoly*

    Our VP has been sitting in on (and often side-tracking, but that’s another matter) our group’s weekly project meetings. The director (who reports to us) is new, and theoretically we report to him, or to a newly appointed manager who would report to him. Yes , that’s a lot of new leadership who is trying to get caught up (within a month) on a project that’s been ongoing for most of a year. The old director who has been involved since start of the project left – there was some attempt at a hand-off, but due to time constraints, lots fell off the radar.

    It’s fine to catch everyone up on things, but our VP cannot, for the life of her, remember anything we discussed. If she were a silent observer, that would be one thing – but she tends to weigh in and shuffle priorities constantly. Every meeting it’s like none of the conversations or decisions from the previous time happened – she’ll go over the same things over and over and change her mind about the priorities.. I’ve tried sending email summaries after meetings – didn’t help. Sent agendas in advance. Hah !

    Im the most junior (tenure) in the group – but am the most technically experienced/involved, and am stuck running the meeting. Asked the director if he could run it, and he said no. Asked him if he could help keep things on track and he isnt comfortable doing so. It’ so frustrating – I want to cancel the meetings entirely since nothing gets done. It wasn’t this bad under the old director – we could discuss progress and challenges, make decisions that stuck and be done on time.

    Suggestions on how to actually make forward progress ? Or is this a hopeless cause ?

    1. Princess B*

      Schedule a separate recurring update meeting with the new leadership. Make it 30 minutes. Send the slide deck/document/write up in advance and present from it during the meeting. Make it optional for anyone who is not needed for questions. Then schedule your real recruiting team meeting without the leadership where you actually get work done. If you need to, you can just change the existing meeting into the update meeting.

  163. Won’t Work For Peanuts*

    Thank you! Seems we are low, but not as much as I thought.

    Second question:
    Is it typical for the posted “salary range” to include the cost of benefits? E.g., my company will say “your pay will be X.” (I don’t know if they use the word “pay,” “salary,” “comp,” etc.)
    But then, they include the company’s contribution to health insurance for the employee and 401k matching, so that the actual paycheck is much lower. I’ve never had a company do that, and I know that caused us to lose at least one very good candidate.

    Does the salary range on payscale include benefits?

  164. Sloanicote*

    Just wanted to share that this week I started job searching, and despite what you hear about the good economy, most jobs I saw in my field (environmental nonprofit) had painfully low salary ranges, if listed, or did not bother to list. One job, under benefits, listed “working on behalf of our nation’s rivers.” I don’t think they were kidding. Gonna be a long search.

    1. Sloanicote*

      I’m sorry I couldn’t remember why I hadn’t posted this Friday and now recall that there was a great reason why, which was Alison’s request – sincere apologies, please delete.

  165. Silvercat*

    I’m starting a new job on Monday and I’m worrying about the ways I’ve screwed up before (because of ADHD/depression) ADHD folk and those that have a really hard time getting out of bed, how do you keep from sleeping in too late? I’ve started keeping my phone in the bathroom so I have to get up when my alarm goes off but it’s only somewhat effective.

    1. onyxzinnia*

      Hope your first day went well! If you haven’t already tried this, there are some apps you can download (I Can’t Wake Up, AlarmMon) that force you to solve a puzzle or a math problem before you can turn off the alarm.

      This is a somewhat unorthodox solution, but you could also look into an alarm clock geared towards deaf and hard of hearing folks. I have one called Sonic Boom that shakes my entire bed like an earthquake. It’s a regular clock but has an attached disk that you slip under the mattress. They also have strobe lights that flash in your face.

  166. Tabby Baltimore*

    Saw this reference (in the comments section of a New York Times article profiling a tech company recruiter: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/16/magazine/tech-company-recruiters.html?searchResultPosition=1) to an academic paper–written in support of someone’s master’s degree–that was about applicant tracking systems. Since that’s a topic that appears here fairly often, thought I’d pass on the URL in case anyone wants to read it: https://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3836&context=thesesdissertations

  167. Bob*

    I work primarily with one other co-worker. Every morning we set up a small room together for about 45 minutes before running a program together. I’ve become resentful of her morning chatter. Our work does not require focus and it’s run of the mill small chat so asking her to stop feels combative. She informs me of recent news events and then sometimes “educates” me with what additional details she learned on social media (some of which is bordering on conspiracy theory or is just plain inaccurate), vents about family/friend drama, talks about how dangerous our city is over and over again, shares her every opinion about the co-vid restrictions where we live and talks about “those people” (homeless/drug addicted/poor who just need to pull up their bootstraps). Sometimes I try educate but I also walk a fine line as she’s just okay at her job and I want to save my correcting for her work as oppose to stuff that’s important in the world but not job related.
    Our work depends on this relationship being decent. I am (slightly) above her and managing does not come natural to me. I find it difficult with how to word work things in the moment but am working on addressing issues. Some stuff is black and white which is easier but the nuanced interactions which could be improved are more difficult to talk about.
    We are two very different people, which can be an asset but I’m finding this relationship hard to navigate and its burning me out. Advice?

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      Do you have to have a chat for 45 minutes? Could you possibly make an excuse to start cutting that short? Are there work items to discuss vs her download of her “opinions of the day?”
      Or maybe you could say you need to slightly multitask while the program is running, so you won’t be able to chat as much?
      If none of those will work, maybe you could bring some neutral topics to the table to ask her about. Like if she’s ever mentioned a hobby, as her for more info on that, or did she see xyz movie or what did she make for dinner last night.
      Good luck! It sounds super annoying

    2. Down to the minute*

      You mentioned that sometimes you try to educate her. I think it would help if you a) stop viewing her as someone you need to educate on non-work things, and b) accept that you are never going to change her mind on anything that isn’t work-related.

      It’s politics. People don’t change each others’ minds; they just get angry and go vent to people who feel the same way they do. You could literally show her proof that what she is saying is incorrect, and it’s not going to make a difference to her. She’s just going to see you as being on the other side. There’s also a very good chance that she is aware of your resentment and burnout, and just like you, she’s going to see that as the other person’s problem.

      Chauncy Gardener also had some good ideas. Do you have the authority to shorten the room to 15 minutes? Can you find some common ground or ask how her family is doing?

  168. Zee*

    Any suggestions on how to (tactfully and briefly) explain in a cover letter why you want to leave your job after a short period of time? I know that why you’re leaving is something that would usually come up in an interview and not go in the letter, but I’m worried I won’t get to the interview stage because the short stint will look suspicious. I don’t want to leave it off because I have had some really major accomplishments in the few months I’ve been here, and it’s my first job with a “director” title, even though my previous job as a “manager” was actually higher-level.

    There are about 100 reasons I want to leave, but the biggest one is that my job was really misrepresented. Almost half of my time is spent on things that were not in the job posting, not discussed in any of the interviews, and not typical for this kind of role. The schedule was misrepresented too – I’ve had to come in on average one out of every 3 Saturdays, often with only 2 days’ notice, to help with programs that aren’t in my arena.

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