open thread – February 4-5, 2022

by Alison Green on February 4, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Miss. Bianca*

    I’ve been at my current marketing job for two years, manage the largest portfolio of budget among my team and my boss has told me numerous times I’m “the best teapot product marketing manager” on the team. We just had our annual reviews where my boss was happy with my performance and gave me “exceeded expectations” across everything.

    I told him I want to move up to a “senior teapot product marketing manager” level and if that’s something he sees happening this review round. He paused and went “ummmmmmm…let’s see how you do against your SMART goals this year”.

    I’m infuriated that he gave such a lukewarm and flippant response after I’ve worked my butt off the past two years; he seemed almost surprised I even asked him this. I previously asked him what the difference was between a regular teapot product marketing manager vs. the senior level, and he told me it was a different pay bracket. There doesn’t seem to be a difference in more responsibility or strategy, I would pretty much be doing the same thing I am now. Even the SMART goals we talked about me achieving are basically continuing what I am doing.

    What’s more, there is an open rec for a senior level marketing manager for a different type of product. For that specific open position, even with the senior title, I would still be managing more budget and the higher priority products even with a lower title.

    It’s weird to me that I keep having to ask a ton questions about this and he’s giving me vague answers and not elaborating on them. He’s the director of our department and I don’t understand why he doesn’t just say, “the difference between the regular manager vs. the senior level is X, Y, Z, in order to get there you need to work on A,B,C”. Maybe he just doesn’t know or fully understand it? But then why wouldn’t he try to find out? If you’re giving out “exceeds expectations” on reviews, you need to realize that people are going to want to be promoted.

    I wanted to get other takes on this. I think next week I’m going to ask him more why that other position gets the senior title when it’s less spend and less of a priority. Then in six months I’ll push for a promotion against my SMART goals, if that doesn’t work then push again in a year. The thing is, I really like my job and salary and would like to stay at the company for at least 5 or 6 years.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      One possibility: his bonus is dependent on the profit margin of his department. If you get promoted and get a higher salary, the margin goes down, and he makes less money. He’s getting everything he needs from you now and has no incentive to pay you more.

      1. cindy lou*

        This – or, he may not have the budget available to promote anyone this year. There may have been a directive from above that there isn’t any extra for salary increases or promotions for a while; I have seen this happen many times, where internal moves are frozen for budget contstraints. By working on it this year and showing your skills may give him more leverage to push his own superiors or whomever manages the head count forecast to consider giving him the buffer for a pay raise and promotion next year.

        1. TGI(February)*

          He may also know there’s no roles open or something else internal like that. What I would do is start job searching because you’re ready for more and the boss has given you a signal that he’s not seeing it for you there.

    2. Sunflower*

      I would go back to your manager and ask for a clear promotion plan. Clearly list out the SMART goals but also if there’s anything else you need to do. Come to some sort of agreement with him that this is the plan. If you work at any sort of mid-size company with an HR department and formal reviews, this should be something they can provide. It might take a bit of prodding and constant follow up but keep pushing for it- your company really can’t fault you for it.

      I was stuck in a similar situation where I was given vague feedback on what I needed to do to be promoted ‘you’re almost there- just need to tighten up everything a little more’. I asked for a plan and never received one and wish I would have pushed harder. I think a large part of it was just laziness on the count of my manager vs reluctance to promote me. During my exit interview, when I cited the lack of promotion as a reason, HR came back to me assuming my manager had given me very clear plans and directions on progress and promotions. She was shocked when I told her that I never received them despite being promised them. So yea definitely just keep pushing every few weeks for that.

    3. AppleStan*

      I suspect he doesn’t want you to leave. You being promoted means he loses not only his highest performer, but a high performer overall. You’re not just the best in the department, (I mean, on a scale of 1 – 100, if everyone else is a 1, but you’re a 2…you’re the best in the department, but you’re not the best), you’re probably one of the best employees in the company. Some managers are not above keeping opportunities from you in order to keep you with them. Other managers might actively sabotage your promotional opportunities.

      Is there any reason you can’t apply for the promotion yourself? Is this something he has to propose?

      1. Miss. Bianca*

        It’s still in my department, it’s just a ‘senior’ title and per him the only different is a high pay bracket.

        The open rec is an entirely different position for a different product, I’m not applying for that job.

        1. Fran Fine*

          The open rec is an entirely different position for a different product, I’m not applying for that job.

          Maybe you should? I mean, he pretty much told you with his lukewarm response that he has no plan to promote you this year, possibly at all. You said yourself you want to stay with your company, so if that’s the case, why not reach out to the hiring manager on the other team and ask about the role to learn a bit more about what you’d be doing if you made the move. If it sounds like a good deal, then apply formally and let the chips fall where they may (but note that doing so could jeopardize your current position if your manager is the type to be vindictive).

          Sometimes managers don’t “get it” until they get presented with the possibility of their high performer moving on. You have to put your career goals first, though. I would hate for you to keep beating your head against a wall trying to push for something that just may never happen, at least under this particular manager.

          1. Miss. Bianca*

            It’s in the department, it’s not on a different team. It’s different type of marketing, but with less budget and less of a priority.

            1. Fran Fine*

              Okay, so it has less budget and less priority product. I’m in comms and not marketing so excuse my ignorance here, but does this really matter if you’d get to move up and increase your salary? Is that your end goal?

              I think you need to figure out now what matters more to you: staying in your exact same spot at the level you’re at now for the foreseeable future, but still getting to work with a larger budget and with priority accounts OR applying for a promotion within your department and working with less budget on a less sexy product, but for a higher salary and title that you could parlay into at least a similar pay scale in a couple years when you’re ready to leave.

              1. Miss. Bianca*

                Re: the product, it’s a running marketing programs on a different type of platform. So I run paid search marketing and this other position is for Facebook marketing. I actually do have some Facebook marketing experience, but that open rec is for someone who has more experience in paid social.

                But it is a thought to bring up to my boss, like “what’s stopping me from applying for the paid social role? It’s less budget”. It would honestly be an empty threat though

                1. Fran Fine*

                  Ahhh, I see. So you have no interest in possibly doing that role? I mean, I don’t know if it’s an empty threat to say something like, “Hey, we’ve talked about my desire to move up to a senior-level role before. Can we get together to come up with a plan for this promotion to happen by years end? If not, I may have to look at other options” – and then genuinely look for other options. Are you open to potentially leaving sooner than you planned? I know you said you wanted to stay 5-6 years, but sometimes that’s just not feasible for many reasons.

                2. Wonderer*

                  I would apply for the other position, even though you don’t plan to take it. Just doing that will show that you’re serious about this issue. They’re going to figure that it’s only a short step to go from applying for internal roles to applying for a new job somewhere else. It might put a bit of fear into them!

            2. Fran Fine*

              Okay, but does this really matter? I’m not a marketing person (I’m in comms), so maybe I’m missing something here, but if the goal is that you want to be promoted to a senior-level position with a higher salary and your manager is letting you know he has no intention of promoting you this year, or possibly ever, would it not be a benefit to you to at least investigate the other option in your same department? Sure, it may be a less sexy product with less money in the budget, but if it could get you where you want to go, then it may not be a bad idea to start looking at your options.

          2. Anon for this*

            And some people don’t even realize this after multiple high performers flee. I’m about to be the LAST high performer left in my department. The others were replaced with people who are decent… but not high performers by any means. Ten people across several teams have all left, citing the exact same problems, and no one has done anything to fix the problems. The only reason I haven’t left yet is I knew I’d be handed another high performer’s project to complete when they left, and I want to put completing it on my resume.

            1. Gnome*

              So true. I literally said to management, “Right now, if you don’t fix this quickly, you are at risk of loosing five people…” And then named the 4 top performers and a drama llama. The four top performers left within three months of that statement. The drama llama is still there.

              1. Momma Bear*

                I’ve worked several places where that happened. I was the start of one of those rats leaving the ship moments. Eventually people will see that the only way up is out. It stinks when you otherwise like your job but they won’t give you incentive to stay there. If a clear path for promotion is not forthcoming, dust off the resume.

      2. ThatGirl*

        It sounds like the senior version of the current position wouldn’t mean losing her — in fact, it would be a way of retaining her with a higher salary and better title. That said, if he refuses or is wishy-washy, he might end up losing her anyway!

      3. lost academic*

        The other department is not going to want to create problems by poaching a high performer.

        Obviously your manager is going to look at this short term and know that an employee performing highly at at the top of a salary band is one of the most valuable things you can have and it’s a net loss for you to move up and out. Doesn’t mean it’s good for you or the business long term but that’s the thinking I see constantly.

        1. Fran Fine*

          The other department is not going to want to create problems by poaching a high performer.

          According to OP, it’s the same department, just a different product team. And this isn’t necessarily true. I was the high performer at two separate companies who was “poached” from my team, but it’s not really poaching if the high performer takes the initiative to apply for another internal opportunity themselves.

        2. Doctors Whom*

          I would have no qualms about hiring a high performer from another department where they are not being recognized appropriately. I’ve done it in the past and would do it again in the future if the position I had open was a clear fit and I could provide a growth path for a top performer. Managers who don’t steward the growth and career paths of their team members don’t get to hoard top performers and box people in. If I can provide a growth opportunity for someone that isn’t available in their current position, I don’t have any qualms about this – and it can be handled professionally and personably and politely.

          We have an internal hiring process and explicitly encourage people to work with managers and find growth opportunities across the organization. And for all our challenges, I can’t believe we are a magical unicorn on this front:) It is very common to move teams to seek a different technical challenge or a leadership opportunity that’s not available in the current position.

          1. Fran Fine*

            I only had problems at one place when I decided to move on (accepted a promotion into another, higher paying/higher visibility division). My old manager sent a nastygram to the hiring manager of my new division when he politely reached out to her via email asking to coordinate my start date with his group. It blew up into A Thing, the email chain went to our corporate division, old manager looked like a psycho and the SVP of the new division ended up chiming in to question old manager’s leadership skills on the email thread with her manager copied on it – it was a mess for a few weeks, then settled down once old manager got over herself.

            But new manager shared your stance on this – had I been valued where I was and given an upward path there, I wouldn’t have applied to the position on his team in the first place. So that was on old manager, not me or him.

          2. no sleep for the wicked*

            I’m in this boat now. I used to be considered a high performer, running a critical operation at my workplace, but now that there is a new manager in place (after years of no manager or another higher up filing in) I am increasingly sidelined even though the operation I manage is still very much in demand.
            I’m hoping it’s just because we have a ton of new folks hired since the pandemic and everyone has a lot going on, but when I share proposals for major service improvments that will revitalize demand that has fallen off while we were locked down, I get nowhere.
            In the past this sort of thing happens when someone is about to be shuffled off to the basement broom closet (state agency so it’s rare to have layoffs or firings) and that is making me nervous.
            It sucks to have a new boss with no capital and no sense of the politcal wrangling here, and existing management (aka the grandboss I reported to between direct managers) is very eager to be done with lingering personnel issues in favor of letting new mnager find her way.
            So I spend a lot of time doing stupid self-created projects so I don’t look like I do nothing all day, while waiting for someone up the food chain to greenlight a game-changing service pilot. And I comb internal job openings, hoping for a crumb of interesting work.

    4. Doggo*

      The exact same situation happened to me. I expressed interest in being promoted to senior, showed initiative by asking what I could do to earn it. I was given vague non-answers. I was also told the position didn’t exist. I did not continue to follow up.

      2 years later, unexpectedly my coworker (who is a male. i am a female.) was promoted to senior. He has less tenure at the company and half as much time in the industry. I was not told there was a senior position opening up, so therefore I did not have the ability to compete or earn the position. It’s really shitty. I’m looking for a new job :)

      I hope things go better for you. I think the advice to continue to ask for a written out plan is good!

      1. JelloStapler*

        That is absolutely awful. I’m so sorry. I’d make sure to mention this to HR when you have an exit interview- “I was given no specifics or path to advance after asking, or was notified of a recent opportunity in favor of a less experienced male colleague. This company clearly has biased career ladders and I do not plan to recommend anyone in my network to apply to positions here.”

        Not that they’d do anything but at least it’s on record. *shrug*

    5. Cold Fish*

      My current company was sold about two years into my tenure here. At about the five year mark I was told, it’s a good thing “Old Owner” sold, she never would have let you move out of “Old Department”. Turned out within a month I had the highest output and fewest errors of anyone in “Old Department” and “Old Owner” didn’t want to promote me because of it. Some managers just can’t think past “But they are doing so well here, I want to keep them here.” I can tell you, that if I was never moved out of “Old Department” I probably would not have made the five year mark. Not because I didn’t like “Old Department” but because I would have been bored out of my mind with that job.

      You are going to have to decide how long you are willing to do your current job without promotion. Then you can make it clear to manager that, for example, if you are not promoted to senior by next year, you are going to be looking for other opportunities even if it means leaving company. Easier said than done, I know. But from what I’m getting in your post, it sounds like manager may need to be reminded that it is not just up to him where you work.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Some managers just can’t think past “But they are doing so well here, I want to keep them here.”

        The crazy thing about that logic in this case is, if it’s even applicable to OP’s manager and his thought process, OP would still be in the same department doing essentially the exact same work just with a higher title and larger salary. If it’s a budgetary concern, he needs to be upfront with OP about that so OP doesn’t think he’s jerking her around for no reason. If it’s something else, well, he still needs to be upfront about why a promotion just isn’t in the cards for OP right now when she’s (according to him) performing well above average. Transparency would solve so many workplace problems…

    6. Artemesia*

      He isn’t going to change. He thinks he can get this productivity out of you without having to reward it. Someone close to me in a similar situation just found a new job that pays a third more and had a huge signing bonus; it took her about a month. Her boss who didn’t promote her was shocked that she is leaving.

      Time to go where you will be rewarded.

      1. Anon for this*

        Our HR rep’s brain broke when they learned the salaries our coworkers are getting when they leave. They still keep insisting we aren’t being underpaid though, because they refuse to acknowledge that our department is responsible for anything challenging.

        I’ve been putting in a request to please let me trick an HR rep into volunteering to help us with our “easy” work once a week for the last several months. So far it’s been rejected on the grounds that luring someone into the situation HR has put us in would be cruel, but as the situation worsens, I have hope.

    7. JelloStapler*

      Unfortunately, this seems to happen a lot when a director is concerned about budget or losing you. Titles and pay ranges are quite the inconsistent mystery in so many organizations, even if it is published.

    8. theletter*

      This could be an issue of the company’s (or your manager’s) expected level of experience. There’s some companies that do want to put people with a solid work 2-year work history into a senior role just as a matter of course – it gives entry level employees a decent goal at motivation, and if it’s a team that’s going to grow a lot, like sales/account rep/customer service, building out levels of hierarchy are very useful.

      On the other end, there’s industries and companies where people used to stay for decades or their entire career, and senior roles may have been more for individual contributors who ridiculous amount of experience, but not enough leadership skillz to go into management. I think I’ve seen this too in career paths that are dying off – where the market is oversaturated with workers with 15+ years experience, but are behind in the latest skills, and less than enthusiatic about change. The minimal amount of career growth available means the company could hire from the outside instead of promoting within if they want more experience.

      I dealt with this a few years back – I had a dotted line manager who ostensibly managed my technical projects, but couldn’t figure out how to get the llamas in and out of the grooming pens to save his life. He thought we should be zigging when we all knew we should zag, and nothing would convince him otherwise. He kept hiring outside seniors, with the idea that they would get those llamas in the pen the way he wanted, and then get the rest of us inline. Well it never worked, and the day he announced his resignation was the day my manager put me up for a promotion.

      Anyways, long story short is you might want to ask around your team and other teams about what the company and HR think the senior role means. Are they looking for an outside person with a billion years of experience who can quickly grow into a manager role? Are they looking for internal candidates who’ve been with the company long enough to take on a mentoring role? Is there a dollar amount of profit per resources that puts the person into a state where impact of loss would negate the benefits by keeping them at the currect salary rate? Could it just come down to some additional communication device (like an automated dashboard or a weekly update) that would make you a valued leader on the team?

    9. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I’d take a look around and see what other marketing opportunities are out there for you to take that next step up without the wait.

    10. Fabulous*

      I know my company just changed the way they do promotions, to where you have to move into an empty existing position, rather than be promoted in-role. Perhaps he’s hemming and hawing because there are no open senior positions? Or maybe his budget doesn’t allow a for a new role in a higher pay bracket?

    11. cindy lou*

      It could be something as simple as he may not have the budget available to promote anyone this year. There may have been a directive from above that there isn’t any extra for salary increases or promotions for a while; I have seen this happen several times in my long career where internal moves are temporarily frozen due to budget constraints. By working on it this year and showing your skills may give him more leverage to push his own superiors or whomever manages the head count forecast to consider giving him the buffer for a pay raise and promotion next year. Or you may just have caught him off guard :) keep the dialogue open and see what happens. Bring in some SMART goals he can’t refuse.

    12. Chevron*

      My take on this is that he’s telling you he doesn’t plan to promote you, and yes push for answers, ask about the open position, but be aware that not answering is an answer in itself.

      I used to be in a team of 10 individual contributors, all doing the same job but over different products, a mix of senior and non-senior positions. Technically the senior position had higher metrics to meet but they were very fuzzy and essentially the only difference was pay. I was one of the top 2 performers, in a non-senior role, doing better than many of the senior people. I spent 3 years asking about promotion opportunities, being given goals to reach to be promoted, then at my next review the goals would change and I’d be given a new set of goals. After the final time I went out and got a new job for more money. Management was shocked I’d left, they had to replace my position with a senior level post to match the work I’d been doing, and I hear they did a few promotions after I’d left to equalise things on the team.

      Looking back, I could possibly have pushed harder at the time to be considered for promotion. I could have made it clear I wasn’t willing to continue in the role when I was sure I was working at the higher level. But I think my manager was happy to have me working hard at the level I was and for whatever reason didn’t want to use capital to get me promoted.

      1. Wonderer*

        I think the first part of this is the clear message – He doesn’t have any plan to promote you. If he even knows how he would go about doing it, he clearly hasn’t put any thought at all into making it happen.

        No doubt that he’s hoping to just kick this problem down the road and hope you let it go. Keep pushing at regular intervals, and definitely apply for the other position. If they ask why, I would say “it’s less work and more money, why wouldn’t I choose that?”

      2. Miss. Bianca*

        Yep, unfortunately for me I think your few sentences are 100% right on.
        I’m so sorry that happened to you :(

        1. Chevron*

          It was a job and people I loved – but my new job was a 30% pay rise and also had lovely people, so it really all worked out well! And was much better than the creeping resentment of knowing I wasn’t valued as I should be.

    13. Liu1845*

      Maybe he does know, but does not want you leaving right where you are. You are making him look good and he likes the status quo. You might have to get the information from elsewhere.
      Does your company have mentors? The company I retired from had them and it was a great program. You might need to find your own though. Our program had a strict rule that your own boss could not be your mentor. It was a great way to develop your reputation at the company.

    14. Qwerty*

      He may not actually know the answers to your questions. You’re going to have to drive this – ask him what steps you need to take to get promoted, what is the job descriptions for the senior title, does the department have the ability to promote you to senior, etc.

      Is that open rec with the senior title under your director or in another department? Are you able to talk to the hiring manager for it informally to find out what they consider senior vs regular?

      Right now its easy for your manager to give you the brush off. It doesn’t sound like he’s invested in your growth or wants to handle the hurdles in getting someone promoted. I’ve run into this many times. Just because someone is in a higher management position does not know they understand how to manage or run a department.

    15. It’s Bannannas*

      I think I would go about this from a different angle. Instead of asking your manager if he sees you getting promoted this review cycle, I would go back to him with a full proposal of why you believe you should be promoted to the senior level. Take your past goals and give concrete examples of where you exceeded against each one, especially where you have examples of exerting influence, coaching/mentoring others, improving a process, managing large complexity/responsibility or otherwise taking the next step past simply achieving the goal. Then, if he is still being unclear on why you wouldn’t be considered for the senior title, you can push him to go one by one against each of these goals to explain where the gap is between your current performance and a senior performance. That gives him less room to avoid the question, and allows you to take more control in how to get to the next step. Finally, have him help coach you to make a plan to conquer any gaps, if they arise.

      I would avoid centering it around the other senior position, and instead focus on how your performance exceeds your current title in terms of responsibility and level of delivery. Perhaps it is all about budget, but then he’s forced to be more clear about the reasoning. Good luck!

    16. Marketing Middle Manager*

      How much structure does your team & department have in general? How long has your boss been a manager?

      The situation you describe–where Senior Teapot Marketing Manager basically does all the same things as a Teapot Marketing Manager, but, like, more senior-ly… that is a difficult situation for both employees and managers (especially new managers). The trouble is that often there AREN’T clear distinctions between the more junior role and the more senior role. And then managers & department heads fall into a bad habit of waiting around for people to impress them and feel like they “deserve” a promotion, rather than meeting specific criteria. So the answers to your questions might not exist. There might not be a culture of giving people specific criteria to meet for a promotion.

      If you suspect that’s the case, then as someone else said, you will need to drive this and nudge your manager out of his passive state. Request clear criteria for Sr Manager and keep following up if he puts you off. You could also offer to do the legwork yourself, doing research and creating a draft job description + promotion criteria for Sr Manager, and bringing that to him for approval. Then all he has to do is say Yes or No.

      If you STILL get nowhere, at a certain point you can switch to asking him about the pattern (see AAM’s advice for managing performance with employees). Or try grabbing coffee with HIS boss, explain your career goals, and see what they say.

      Ultimately, unfortunately, you might never get the structure you’re looking for at this company. I’ve seen companies where this haphazard approach to promotions sticks in the culture for years and years. It can take a lot of work to overcome, because depending on the company, your boss might need to get signoff from multiple levels above him and HR to approve the promotion criteria. Leadership might view it as making risky promises to employees about promotions, or view it as giving up some of their power and flexibility to make decisions.

    17. River Otter*

      You believe in what I like to call the calculus model of promotions. You have shown that you can do all the calculus 1 work with an A+ grade, so you expect to move into calculus 2. College works that way, but promotions do not. Being a senior whatever isn’t about being really good at all the same things as a junior whatever. Seniority also comes with increased autonomy in making decisions and increased mentoring expectations. Sometimes there is an expectation that you are the go to person for whatever it is that you do. And while seniority requires a greater number of years of experience, that does not mean that a greater number of years of experience will automatically get you seniority.
      It is good that you are asking these questions, but I think you need to reset your expectations. Have some conversations with other senior marketing people about what increased responsibilities they have taken on as they have gotten more senior. This will give you the sense of the difference in positions that your manager was not able to articulate. With those in mind, go have another conversation with your manager about the expectations in the senior level role. He was probably taken by surprise when you first brought it up. He will have had more time to think about it, and you will have some material to lead the conversation with. Expect that you will have to have multiple conversations over the coming months, and expect that at least one of those conversations will involve him saying that he doesn’t think you merit a promotion at this point.
      Revise your goals to go beyond what you’re currently doing. If you just keep doing all the same things, even if you do them really well, you will just keep staying at the same level. You can also enlist senior people to help you figure out what kind of stretch goals you should be thinking about. Then you will also have this conversation with your manager to see whether or not he is willing to help you find the kind of assignments that will stretch you. Keep in mind that operating at the senior level and being a go to person frequently works out to you finding your own opportunities, rather than your boss finding the opportunities for you. Be willing to do some of that legwork and advocate for yourself in getting more responsibility.
      Seniority can sometimes also mean taking on functional responsibilities. So maybe your department has some strategic plan that senior individual contributors take parts of. Again, consult with your senior colleagues and with your boss on how to find these. If you are on good terms with your skip level boss, talk to them as well. Just be sure that you keep your direct manager in the loop right after that conversation.
      Getting promoted doesn’t typically mean that you have to do all of those things that I just talked about. It frequently means that you have to be doing a few, so let that guide your strategic plan. If you can find one or two senior level responsibilities to incorporate into your job going forward, that should lay a solid foundation for having the promotion talk in the next review cycle.
      Good luck!

  2. Cat Tree*

    Thanks to everyone for the advice last week about interview questions to ask. I have interviewed several candidates so far and several of them could work out in this role.

    I need a sanity check though for one that didn’t go so well. I interviewed a guy who came off as condescending to me. This is a big problem, right? It’s for an entry level position so I try to be very generous with the expectation that we’ll have to train the person on all kinds of things. But this seems like a deal-breaker. He’s the only one we have interviewed so far for the entry-level role (others were for the mid-level role), so I don’t have anything to compare him to.

    He was overly complimentary/flattering to me in a way that felt like he was trying to suck up. It came off as condescending because he congratulated me on my own work achievements, which I had only described for background. It’s hard to explain, but it seemed really weird that he assumed I was seeking validation from him. All roles are collaborative to some extent, but this particular role is especially collaborative. I’m concerned that he would be condescending when working with people who views as beneath him. I think he could theoretically learn to communicate better, but this probably isn’t the right role to do that.

    Does anyone have experience working with someone like this? Are there any examples of someone like this coming into the role, really learning on the job, and everything working out well? Or should I just pass?

    1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      Trust your gut on that one – I’ve worked with a few people like that and they are exhausting.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes!!!! Absolutely trust your gut on this.

        When I did not, I ended up with the most difficult lab tech I ever experienced. Friendly on the outside, but combative, explosive temper, unreliable, a liar, uncooperative. After 10 months (of hell) had to fire her.

        One time I interviewed a man who met all the job criteria. But my gut was shouting “NO!”. I could not articulate why. So I moved him, and two others, forward to interview with my boss.

        My boss interviewed all three candidates. He handed me back the resume of the man my gut objected to and said to me, “I like either of the other two candidates. DO NOT HIRE this guy.”

        I asked him why. He said he couldn’t say- just a feeling. And he always went with his gut feeling.

      2. Elle Woods*

        I second this. My experience working with someone like this is that they coasted on charm and their work was inept, at best. They didn’t understand why their role was important to the organization or how it fit into the larger scheme of things and was a complete nightmare to work with.

      3. anonymous73*

        +1 to trust your gut. I was involved with my manager in interviewing for an open developer position. I had virtually no experience with being the interviewer, but whenever my manager asked for my opinion on someone personality-wise, she always validated my thoughts. One candidate rolled her eyes at us.

        If you took his tone as condescending and brown nosy, then that’s who he is. Believe it. Interviews make people nervous, but nerves don’t generally create this type of attitude.

      4. Chauncy Gardener*

        Came here to say that. Don’t second guess your gut. If he’s condescending IN AN INTERVIEW, he’s not going to magically improve once he’s on your payroll.

    2. Rey*

      I supervise college students, so they usually don’t have a ton of professional experience and I’m used to training on office norms. But I would never want to train them on how to not be condescending. That just sounds like a lot of work on my part, when I assume there are other applicants that wouldn’t require this kind of handholding. I would just pass.

    3. Elenna*

      I’m noticing that you haven’t actually listed any reasons you *want* to hire him, just reasons you don’t want to. And you say you have several good candidates. No reason to pick this guy and probably give yourself a bunch of headaches in the future, when you can just pick someone else.

      1. Cat Tree*

        Ha, good point. He actually did ok in some parts of the interview although there was as least one other red flag. Oddly, he answered really well on the question about collaboration and gave a good example. Even understanding that I’m only getting the candidate’s point of view, it still seemed like a good example so that’s partly why I’m questioning my judgment.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          That’s a huge caution flag that you are questioning your own judgement. Don’t start down this road, it won’t serve you. A good candidate will feel like a solid hire, this is a different feeling from what you describe here.
          I can almost predict that you could end up questioning your judgement after each interaction with this guy.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        This!
        Dating/hiring analogy: if you’re trying to talk yourself out of dating someone, then they’re not someone you should date. Instead of “Yeah, but…” it should be “Hell, yeah” as across the board as possible.

    4. College Career Counselor*

      At almost every stage, you’re looking for reasons to winnow down your applicant pool. If this guy put you off with his manner while *ostensibly on his best behavior* AND you have “several” other people who could work out well, I think you should pass on this person’s candidacy. Don’t go borrowing a professional development project if you don’t have to.

      1. Cat Tree*

        Yes, good point. My concern is that I’m the most junior person on the interview team so he might have done better at hiding with the others. So I want to be sure of my own position if I have to present it to others who saw a different side of the candidate. I have to decide how much capital I’m willing to spend on a veto *if* the others want to hire him.

        1. OtterB*

          This is a really good reason to have junior people on interview teams. Some years ago, my organization interviewed someone who was rude and condescending to an admin person who was part of the interview. I would never have seen it; the interviewee considered me their equal. We did not hire them; good technical skills would not overcome inability to respect everyone on the team.

          1. SomeTimes*

            Wanted to say just this, I value the perspectives of the junior people on the team so much- often they will catch behaviors like this that the candidate may hide in meetings with more senior employees.

          2. tangerineRose*

            “my organization interviewed someone who was rude and condescending to an admin person who was part of the interview.” Thank you! I used to have a co-worker who was rude to anyone he didn’t think was important enough, and it made him very hard to work with.

      1. Cat Tree*

        Thanks for that reminder. I didn’t make it clear before, but we are filling at least two positions. He is the only candidate interviewing for the entry-level position during this round. But it’s probably better to pass on him and re-post the position.

        3. Pam Adams*

          Even if he wasn’t problematic, I would re-post. One candidate in the interview pool for a role isn’t enough. Maybe widen your search parameters?

    6. Just Here for the Free Lunch*

      Pass. I learned the hard way never to hire someone that I wasn’t enthusiastic about.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      Yes, I’ve worked with someone like this. They will do nothing, take credit for everyone else’s work, and brown nose to your superior while getting in subtle digs at you. Hard pass.

    8. NervousNellie*

      Hard pass, just dealing with people like this is exhausting. I can’t imagine working a full day. There are a lot of fish in the sea right now, go catch another one.

    9. Purple Cat*

      Pass.
      Although you don’t specify YOUR gender, I’m willing to assume you’re female. And we’ve been well-trained to ignore our gut feelings – especially when they’re unfavorable towards men – because of course what we’re feeling isn’t REALLY what we’re feeling and is wrong and we must suppress them to not cause waves.
      Getting an “icky” vibe from someone is enough to not move them forward. It’s not that they were nervous, or didn’t have the exact skill set you were looking for, it’s their basic personality that doesn’t feel like a fit, and you can’t train that away.

        1. retired3*

          My first thought was that you are a woman (I am too). Trust your gut. I once worked as a manager in a state prison system. Sometimes I worked in the prisons One thing that struck me in this very macho environment (and that I appreciated) was that if you said an inmate made you uncomfortable, you were taken seriously. The focus was on staying safe in that environment and honoring people’s intuition apparently was part of that. There was no questioning of your feeling.

        2. Mimi*

          I don’t know how many of the other interviewers are female, but this would be a huge red flag to me. You’re the canary on the interview team, as it were — how he behaves to you in the interview is how he will behave to women in junior roles, possibly to anyone in junior roles, and you do not want that toxic nonsense on your team, or interacting with anyone in your organization (and possibly your clients!) You’re on the interview team BECAUSE people will potentially show you this behavior that they wouldn’t show a senior VP or whoever, and the company wants you to voice these reservations. Stick to your convictions. It’s possible the rest of the team will overrule you (though if so, that seems like a bad sign for this org), but you can hold firm in “If this were my decision, he would be a heck no.”

    10. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      trust your gut. I usually participate in interviewing candidates for support staff positions on my team. One guy came off kinda arrogant and dismissive to me, but I didn’t bring it up when my manager asked what I thought of him, because I couldn’t really explain why I didn’t feel great about him. We hired him. Turns out he was kind of arrogant and sexist and thought rules didn’t apply to him. He did not last. Lesson learned.

    12. Forkeater*

      Ah yes. I had an employee who treated me as if she thought I needed a lot of reassurance. It was very strange. It came out over time that this behavior was a symptom of the contempt she had for me. Trust your gut.

      1. It Is Ok*

        I’m a new supervisor interviewing for my backfill and my Director added a last-minute referral. I interviewed the referral as a courtesy and she kept reassuring me when I didn’t need to be reassured.

        It was irritating and I couldn’t decide if it was a viable reason to pass on her. It’s tricky because of who referred her. Your comment helped me realize what she was doing. Thank you.

    13. RagingADHD*

      It’s an entry level role and you already have several good candidates. Pass.

      It isn’t your job to teach this guy remedial communication skills. Unless literally every other candidate would require longer & more difficult or comprehensive training in order to fill the role, then don’t waste another thought on him.

      The only reason to bother with this guy is if he were your absolute best candidate. He isn’t.

    15. Bagpuss*

      You’ve given specific concerns based on how he came over .
      I am also wondering if you are female/female presenting.

      I once interviewed a guy who came over like this to me, but only to me, not my male colleague. My colleague was enthusiastic about the gut and haven’t noticed how he acted toward me at all. I vetoed our taking his application any further.

      If you have other good candidates, move on. If not, or if he was otherwise strong, maybe consider a second interview – would it be feasible to have some of the people who would be directly working with him be involved in that and see whether he gives of the same vibe there?

    16. Wait what?*

      Unless there’s more you’re not saying, I would run it past some trusted colleagues. By all means, trust your gut.

      But, the one thing you point to – he congratulated you on an achievement that you brought up, is hardly evidence of being condescending by itself. What response were you looking for?

      I could imagine a different interviewer penalizing a candidate for not responding like this candidate date. i.e. “I mentioned $achievement but the candidate didn’t even seem to know that it is important” How’s the candidate to tell the difference between that interview and you?

      Also be mindful that for true entry-level positions, the candidates might not have the polish you’re looking for. Candidates are less likely to know or manage how they come across, so you might mistake naivite for arrogance or condescension. But you’re the only person who was there for that, so you’re the best judge of that.

      2. Cat Tree*

        I explained to him that I’m the SME for the process, have been for years, so I know what is important for the position. He made a point to congratulate me later, not even a spur of the moment thing. It’s just so bizarre that he thought my reason for saying it was to get his personal approval. Plus it’s not like a recent thing. I’ve been the SME longer than he has been in the workforce.

        It’s like if a 10 year-old congratulated you for tying your shoes. It’s just so bizarre. No other candidate has ever done this.

          1. Hlao-roo*

            Context is everything. Cat Tree was there, you and I were not.

            If you want more details, there is a big difference between Cat Tree saying “I created [useful tool]” and the candidate immediately saying “that’s cool!” or “that’s great!” or something along those lines and a situation where Cat Tree says “I created [useful tool]” and at the end of the interview the candidate says “it’s very impressive that you were able to create such a useful tool for [field]” with a tone of “what a cute parlor trick, little lady.”

            Word choice, tone, body language, and many other factors play into determining intent.

            1. Wait what?*

              Yeah, context matters. But intents are inscrutable, and people are very bad at identifying them correctly. Focus instead on the actions and their outcomes.

              As you said, you weren’t there, so I’m not sure how you came up with that dialog.

              1. Hlao-roo*

                I should have been more clear: I came up with the dialogue for the two example scenarios to show how adding word choice + tone + timing in the interview to “a candidate congratulated me on an achievement” creates two very different scenarios. Because we (as commenters on the blog) only know “a candidate congratulated me on an achievement” and the timing in the interview, I’m willing to trust Cat Tree’s judgement of the word choice, tone, body language, etc that led her the believe the candidate was condescending.

                1. Wait what?*

                  Yeah, these types of discussions aren’t productive on the internet because context matters so much.

          2. RagingADHD*

            The intent is irrelevant. If the candidate is coming across as bizarrely condescending, that’s a problem.

            It demonstrates a failure in their interpersonal communication skills, which would negatively impact their job performance in this environment.

            Part of the job is establishing positive collaborative relationships, and committing faux pas in the interview shows they are not good at it.

        2. A Pair of Foxes*

          You clearly very much care about being the SME for the process and he correctly picked up on it. Absent information you’re leaving out, it’s bizarre that you think he was doing it to personally approve of you.

          You really need to take a step back and talk to the rest of the hiring committee to make sure your judgment isn’t miscalibrated.

    17. Stoppin' by to chat*

      Typically when you’re in the interview phase with someone you still have very few data points about them. So if a key data point about how they interacted with you seemed off, then listen to your gut. It’s unlikely that will be the ONLY qualified candidate you will ever come across or this role ever. It’s okay to listen to your gut and pass.

    18. The teapots are on fire*

      First, hire no glassbowls is, to me, the first and foremost rule of hiring. I have ignored it twice and regretted it bitterly both times.

    19. no sleep for the wicked*

      We recently hired someone for an entry level position who had worked here in a student capacity a few years ago and now had an MLIS (absolutely not required for the position) and because another person on the hiring committee recalled enjoying working with this person previously, we hired them.
      Oh lordy what a shitshow. They snubbed everyone they work with who doesn’t have an MLIS and started contacting outside organizations and higher-ups about any random idea they had about workflow they didn’t bother to learn, causing a lot of kerfluffle as they were quickly reined in. They also refused to be trained by me for a critical part of their job I oversee, turning down my meeting request for training with “I’ll get back to you in a couple of months” which ended up with a “I’m ready to help you with your documentation-writing problem now” What the actual??
      New manager (who wasn’t here for the hiring) has done a lot in helping with workplace norms but this person still regularly expresses disappointment with lack of autonomy and general entry-levelness.
      I wish we had never hired them.

    20. Nesprin*

      Yup, patronizing junior employee is a combination I loathe working with, and in my experience rarely goes with competent or pleasant to work with.

  3. Sunflower*

    Salary Benchmarking – 2 questions
    – My company says they do benchmarking based on total comp, not salary- everyone I’ve spoken to both in and outside of my industry say that benchmarking should be done on salary alone since bonuses aren’t guaranteed.
    – I asked my boss if HR could provide benchmarking info for my role. She told me my base puts me at 75% and bonus pushes me up to 100%. I was expected to be given the salary range for the position and could figure out where I fall. We usually get bonuses (around 15% given the company and your performance rating are both average) but of course it’s not guaranteed.
    Both of these (primarily the benchmarking %) seem a bit odd- am I correct?

    FYI – I had posted a few weeks ago about getting a 10% raise as a promotion (6% COL and 4% title raise) and thinking it was low. I’ve been preparing to go back to negotiate, and this is my first step. Unfortunately, my boss doesn’t seem concerned I’m asking about salary and I don’t think negotiations are going to go anywhere. Ideally I want my boss to pick up that I’d be looking elsewhere if I don’t receive the raise I want (but without flat out saying it)

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      Nope nope! CFO here and also in charge of HR at my current and previous (smaller) companies. I always benchmark base and then a separate benchmark is total comp, not including benefits, only cash comp and equity.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      We look at both base salary as well as total cash compensation which would include things like bonus, stock, etc. It depends on the service you use for benchmarking but you establish a target for the role externally vs. companies you consider your peer employers, determine what percentage you want to be vs. those peers and set that as the mid-point of that position’s salary range.

      A 10% promotion increase is a solid raise assuming it is just one level up.

    3. Can Can Cannot*

      In terms of being given the range and then figuring out where you fall, that won’t work. The range is part of a distribution, and knowing the high and low won’t tell you much. Being halfway between the high and low doesn’t mean you are in the middle (50%) of the distribution since the distribution can be uneven. The numbers you were given are probably more useful. You are quite a bit above the mid point (75%) for your base and at the very top for total comp.

      1. Sunflower*

        I’m still a bit confused only because when I’ve tried to negotiate my salary before, I’ve been told that they can’t go any higher because I’m close to the top end of the range and they need to leave room for increases. So I assumed there was some range somewhere out there? I should also mention my team is really small and this is a new role so I’m the only person in it so far and it’s not a situation where there’s a lot of other internal salaries to gage it against.

        Just was shocked to hear that because I’ve been doing my research and it seems people at our competitors are making a little less than my total comp in their salary and receiving the same percent bonus so they are making a decent chunk more than me. I work at a relatively large company (5000+ employees, 65,000+ if you include our parent and sister companies) so I assume they have access to pretty legitimate benchmarking data.

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          It sounds like you have some additional data. It could be that the benchmarking was flawed, or biased to make your company look more competitive. but if you have information that you are not in fact at the 75% and 100% points, you might want to bring that up. But don’t expect them to buck their benchmarks. Instead, it might be the information you need to find a new job.

  4. ecnaseener*

    Can I please get a gut check on priorities when comparing jobs?

    I’m 25 years old, 2.5 years into my first post-college job. I’m doing very well in it but still challenged enough to be engaged. I’m reasonably happy here and wasn’t job-hunting when a recruiter contacted me about another job, which I’m now at the reference-check stage for.

    New job would be a step up in title (and pay), with more growth potential than is available at my current job. I would be learning a new area of my work. So on paper, a great move for my career. But it doesn’t feel like enough to justify a move, and I’m not sure if that feeling is rooted in reality or if I’m just averse to change (and tbh averse to digging up references, kind of a pain when in your first job).

    So…would it be a mistake to pass up a growth opportunity now and potentially find myself stuck/stagnating in a couple years? What do you wish you had done at 25? For context, I’m not in the type of job where hopping around every 3 years is normal.

    (I am of course considering other factors beyond pay and advancement. None lean heavily to the new job though, so it’s basically the above.)

    1. SquigSoup*

      It sounds to me like you are happy where you are, and weren’t planning to look for a new job. What I’m reading is that you’d be jumping from a known quantity where you feel challenged and respected to an unknown quantity. I would advise you to stay put, for now.

      2. ecnaseener*

        An accurate assessment, yes! I probed into details where I could, but just about every factor affecting my immediate work experience is somewhere in the realm of “probably about the same” to “there are yellow flags that it could be worse.”

        1. Cat on a Keyboard*

          It’s a good idea to interview, to see what’s out there, talk with others in the industry, and think about your overall career priorities, while you’re not in a rush. But if you’re happy where you are, and the new job doesn’t seem totally amazing and definitely better, then I wouldn’t jump ship yet. Maybe in a few years you’ll feel ready to move on and those opportunities might be open again.
          Congrats finding a good spot to stay for 3 years, I job hopped a lot in my early career trying to find my way. A solid start will look good for you.

          1. Nesprin*

            Yup, this- if they want you to move out of an environment where you’re doing well, they need to be good + willing to pay you to move.

    2. LDN Layabout*

      At the end of the day, it’s all personal, but pattern-wise? The people who move around more earlier in their career tend to earn more.

      I bucked that trend and have managed to catch up, but I still regret staying several years at my first post university job. Look at the changes I’ve made since then, I’ve probably left an extra 10-20% salary and at least 1 level of title bump on the table.

        1. LDN Layabout*

          I mean, you will be kicking yourself about something 10 years ;) Life isn’t perfect and neither are we. It sounds like this job might not be one to go to, but that it might be worth looking into what’s out there.

          If you’re like me? It’s REALLY hard to move when you’re comfortable. I love the current people I work with and our mission, but I’m still leaving and in a way it’s harder than when I left a place I’d grown to hate. But it’s a big step up, working on some stuff that’s highly visible and as my mind acclimatised to ‘I’m leaving’, the more excited I get!

    3. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Don’t ignore your gut. If you aren’t excited about the new opportunity I would hold tight for now but recognize that you have enough of a work history now to keep an ear to the ground for external positions that would excite you and push for internal growth .

    4. Rey*

      You say that it doesn’t feel like enough to justify a move, so if in a couple years you were looking for a new role, what would feel like enough? And once you know that, what would you like to be doing over the next couple years to feel prepared for that kind of role? At 25, you have a lot of time to make career decisions, and that’s true. But if you have a specific title in mind and there’s specific things you can be doing to prepare for it, I think that would be a good place to start. And maybe think about things that you would like to change in your life in the next couple years, and consider how your current job versus the potential job would fit with that. Maybe right now you have a long commute that diminishes your social life or keeps you away from family that you would actually like to prioritize more.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Hard to say — if I wanted to move it would be because I was bored or otherwise unhappy at work. So my standards would be lower, I would probably weigh the prospect of new challenges much heavier against the work I currently enjoy.
        Even then, I can honestly say this particular job would still not be a slam dunk — it’s a lot of the same work day in and day out, whereas now I have a variety that works for me. If I get bored of this particular set of tasks, replacing them all with 1-2 new tasks won’t be terribly appealing.

        1. Lady Danbury*

          Based on what you shared here, it doesn’t sound like this is the right move for you. But you definitely shouldn’t wait until your desperate! Now is the perfect time to polish up your resume/linkedin and keep an eye out for opportunities that would be a better fit. Others have mentioned the significant career benefits of changing jobs and applying doesn’t mean that you have to take the job. You’re far less likely to find a better opportunity if you don’t look at all.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            Seconding this. It sounds like you’ve considered this job and it wouldn’t be the right fit, but what jobs would be a good fit for you? Where do you want to go at this point in your career, and what steps would you need to take to get there?

            I was “loyal” to the company where I had my first job, so I didn’t push back when they had me working exclusively with outdated technology. I didn’t have a career plan and was really stagnating when they decided to fire me. It was only then that I realized I couldn’t get a job in the same field for the next year because of the noncompete, and I didn’t have any experience in the modern technology every other job wanted.

            Even if you’re perfectly happy where you are, keep an eye on job listings and the skills they want so that you can transition to a new job when you want or need to.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            I agree–it sounds like a move, and on paper there is logic to it, but not slam dunk “You’re unhappy where you are now, you need to budge” or “This is a huge promotion and right in line with your desired career path” logic. You can be happy where you are and stay put another 1-2 years.

    5. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Growth potential early in your career is huge. What could be a small step up now will incrementally grow over time and snowball into much more than if you stayed where you are. To me, the early years in your career are the time to take risks — you can always take this job, realize it’s not what you like, and try to go back to your old role (or a similar role at another company). But that’s just me!

    6. Nowwhat465*

      I’m in higher ed. Once you start working at some of the bigger institutions, job hunting really dies down. I started at one my first job out of college. I stayed in my assistant level role until I was 26.

      By 2 years, I was doing the job really well. I was taking on new projects with meaning that I found challenging. But I was not getting paid for those growth opportunities within the job. I had the responsibility of an Assistant Manager on a lot of these programs, and I was still paid like an assistant. I was comfortable though, so I didn’t really see a reason to move even though I was aware there would not be an opportunity to move up in my team. I didn’t end up starting to search for other opportunities until about a year later when I grew extremely frustrated that I had all this responsibility and not the pay and title

      I’m now nearly 30. I’ve moved up a couple of time since that position within my institution (different teams) but I really wish I had started the process 6-12 months sooner. The salary bump alone just a bit sooner could have helped my husband and I reach our current goals a bit sooner (buying a home, getting married) and we are trying to plan our future goals around my next career move as I want to be in a new position for at least a year before kids, or have kids in my current position and then move on after.

      If there other factors outside advancement and salary that discourage you from taking this job (benefits aren’t great, longer commute, longer hours etc.) then definitely take those into consideration and see how they affect your quality of life. But please don’t pass up opportunities just because you’re comfortable. It can be scary, but I promise you it is worth it.

      2. Mimi*

        I also wish I’d moved out of my first job a little sooner, and one of the factors there is opportunity cost — Yes, I was learning in oldjob, and I wasn’t totally bored, but I would’ve learned more and gotten more interesting work if I’d moved on after three or four years, instead of six.

        (That said, it sounds like maybe this particular job isn’t the best choice, but keep an eye out for other options.)

    7. pcake*

      There’s no way to know how a new job will work out. They could have unreasonable expectations, your new boss could be a jerk, there could be other issues that don’t show up “on paper”. So many jobs have issues once you’re working there that don’t show from the outside or that they don’t talk about. Considering you are happy enough at your current company to NOT be looking for a job, I don’t see a compelling reason for this move. You can always worry about more upward growth in the future. Seems like the big winner if you change jobs might be the recruiter.

      How does potential new job compare in bonuses and other benefits like paid time off and flexibility? Is it remote, and if not, is it closer or further from where you live? Have you talked about hours yet?

      To me, moving to a new job you weren’t looking for with no strong advantages seems like it’s not a move worth making. But that’s just my opinion.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Ha, the recruiter is definitely the big winner and she is pushing hard! And the unknowns are looming big.

        No bonuses at either job, new job has more PTO in total but also more restrictions on it (ie, current job has a pooled PTO bank so I can easily take mental health days and whatnot; new job has more vacation time [available after 6 mos] but very few sick/personal days), both are remote, hours sound like typically 40 but with some surges (current job I almost never work long hours).

    8. Anonying*

      You said the prospective job has more growth potential than at your current job. I think that’s key. To me, if there is no similar growth trajectory open to you after 2.5 years at a company, I would consider the prospective job offer, if/when that comes. I regret losing growth at your age and stagnating at a job that I knew would not lead to my career.

      Most importantly, perhaps, I would also make sure the pay bump is actually a bump. If you currently work 40 hours at $50K and this new job wants 60 hours at $55K, you’d be working for far less at the new job, once converted to hourly rates. Also, compare benefits, especially 401K matching and insurance premiums. Also look at vacation days; I very much regret taking a “better” job that didn’t give me any vacation until 12 months. I didn’t figure that stuff out until my late 20s.

      Good luck!

      1. ecnaseener*

        Great points, thank you! I don’t have zero growth potential in this current job — I’m at level 2 of 3. After 3 I will be stuck if I don’t want to be a man anger (or the managers don’t leave – they’re both probably lifers). The new job is a bigger department that is itself growing.

        The new job is definitely not a 60 hr job, but from what I heard in the interview they do sometimes have surges (whereas I’m almost always getting my current work done in 40 hours, never as much as 45) so this 6-10% bump does shrink a bit when I look at it hourly.

        2. DrRat*

          I am always getting colleagues who move to a new company and want me to go with them. “It’s an extra $10,000 a year!” But then it turns out they are working 60 hours a week for the salary when I’m working 40, they get no paid OT, fewer PTO days, 401(k) matching is not as good, they have to go to the office instead of working from home…

          It sounds like you are asking all the right questions but that the answer may be “Yes, I need to look for a new change, just not this particular change.”

      2. SansaStark*

        That’s such a great way to frame thinking about “more money” that took me years to learn. I just rolled my old 401ks into a Roth and it is really surprising how the meager amount I was able to save 15 years ago grew into something that, taken together with other accounts, actually translates into real money that can grow over the next 20 years.

      3. JitzGirl11*

        I was going to comment similarly. Salary and career progression are absolutely important considerations. But the whole benefits package tells a story as well, and that’s worth weighing. Early in my career, I moved from a corporate job to take a position with a nonprofit to learn a new skill set. I took a slight pay cut, moved into what was seen as a less stable industry, and took on a longer commute – but the new job contributed 10% to my 403(b), I had four times as much vacation, I had more flexibility, I was valued, and I got away from toxic management. I was able to leverage that foot in the door into a series of promotions that eventually (I stayed with the nonprofit 10+years) helped me land my current job, outside of social service nonprofits, where my pay, responsibilities, benefits, etc. are significantly better than many of my peers my age and in my industry. Weigh the “small” stuff, in addition to the career steps and salary boost you might see. In my case, a lateral (and from a pay perspective, backward) move was 100% the best choice.

    9. Cold Fish*

      I kind of regret not moving around more when I was younger (I really, really, really hate job searching and I’m good at planning my next moves). I also really liked the people/company I work at and moved internally enough that I didn’t get bored. I’ve gotten to the point I know I really need to move on but can’t find anything at current pay, even though I know I’m making less that I could have if I did a little more job hopping. There is nothing wrong with staying where you are if you don’t like the sound of the new job. But it is easy to get stuck without some kind of plan.

      3. Romana*

        Oof, I could have written this. This is all true of me except that I was incredibly bored at my job at 25 and actually very badly wanted to move on, but struggled because I hate job searching so much and because my perception of my job also affected my ability to build my resume and applications (I didn’t know what to say about my work since it felt meaningless to me). I eventually lucked out and found a job with much better pay and a better environment, but it was a lateral move in terms of responsibilities and title because I was just applying to anything that seemed realistic out of desperation. Now I’m feeling stagnant again but can’t find anything even close to my current pay. I really wish I had done something more to grow in my career when I was younger, because now I want to try new and different things but can’t accept an entry level salary anymore.

    10. SansaStark*

      Short answer: I’d tell my 25 year old self to trust my gut a lot more. I was right about SO MANY things but felt like I couldn’t trust myself if I didn’t have a “good enough” reason.

      Longer answer: Spend some time digging into WHY your gut might be telling you something. Is there anything you learned in the interview with this specific situation that make you hesitant? If the opportunity was slightly different, do you think you’d feel differently? Also maybe spend some time thinking about your short term and long term goals are. It may be worth turning down this opportunity for the potential of a reaching a longer-term goal. Or maybe not! For a long time, my short-term goal was to work in a job that didn’t suck my soul with people I liked with a long-term goal of learning my industry from the ground-up so that I’d be ready for something bigger eventually. Your short-term goal might be to make as much money as you can right now. Totally valid. It’s YOUR goal for your life. And of course, your goals can change as you do!

      You’re not going to get it right every time. No one does. Learn from your mistakes. Good luck!

      1. ecnaseener*

        Permission to trust my gut is what I wanted to hear, thank you! :) Yes, there are some yellow flags and ultimately nothing (other than the money) that I’m sure I’ll like better.

        Long term goal setting is……not my strong suit. So i know my gut is in a blind spot there.

        1. SansaStark*

          I took a job for money once and ignored a couple of yellow flags and my general ‘off’ feeling about it and that whole story became the reason that I say so confidently now “listen to your gut.” Good luck!

    11. anonymous73*

      Don’t lose out on an opportunity that came to you just because it’s a pain to put together references or because you’re not crazy about change. It’s always a little scary to start a new job. I’ve been working professionally for over 25 years and have stayed in more than one place because I was comfortable, but had limited growth potential. While I’m doing well, I could be doing so much better. I know there are no guarantees with the new job, but to me the growth opportunity is a HUGE plus. I say go for it. You may not get the new job, but will probably have regrets or at least wonder “what if” if you don’t at least try. If you get an offer, weigh the pros and cons and do what’s best for you.

    12. Purple Cat*

      Pay increase and growth potential is HUGE at the early stages of your career. Compound growth is absolutely a thing, so please don’t discount that. And changing jobs <3 years is absolutely not "job hopping" and even if someone thought that was a short period of time, you need to worry about multiple "short" jobs before it's a concern. This new company obviously wanted you despite your current short tenure.

      I'm not sure what else you're expecting/looking for to "justify a move". There typically isn't a blazing firestorm writing "GET OUT" that gets people to move.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Sorry, by “normal to hop around” I just meant how there are some fields where everyone takes a new job every few years because you can’t get a raise or promotion otherwise. I didn’t mean I had any concerns about looking like a job-hopper – I don’t, for the reasons you name.

        As for what else I was looking for to justify the move: an improvement in my actual day-to-day work experience. A sense that I would like the work better, or the people, or something. I spend 40 hours a week (or less!) doing work that I enjoy a reasonable amount, with a dependable manager and reasonable coworkers, and I can afford what I need. I’d be risking a lot of short-term happiness for long-term money.

        1. okay*

          “I spend 40 hours a week (or less!) doing work that I enjoy a reasonable amount, with a dependable manager and reasonable coworkers, and I can afford what I need.” This is one of the most lukewarm, milquetoast justifications for staying at a current job that I think I have ever read. Are you sure, OP? Are you really, really sure? I don’t see any passion, any heart, in what you said – only comfortable and safe. Now, given The Times We Live In, comfortable and safe may be just what you need. If that’s the case, that’s fine! But be honest w/yourself that the stress of moving to a new role, even with the promise of better money and better opportunity, isn’t what you are able to handle right now.

          1. Loulou*

            I don’t mean to sound harsh, but your reaction feels pretty out of touch. Absolutely none of the things OP listed are things anyone should take for granted. It makes perfect sense to say, “I’m happy with the conditions I’m working in now and I don’t want to risk losing them.” It’s a pretty mature perspective, and I find it condescending to say “be honest with yourself” as though OP isn’t!

          2. ecnaseener*

            I appreciate this perspective! I’m not passionate about this job, but I wouldn’t be passionate about the new one either. I’m not working in a field I’m passionate about, so I actually feel quite lucky to be simply content. I get a non-zero amount of enjoyment out of my work, which is a lot more than many people can say, and it’s work that makes the world a little better rather than just lining investors’ pockets. I don’t want to risk a generally-pleasant existence.

            But like, you’re not wrong that I could be happier. It’s either a Plague Times coping mechanism or my brain maturing, but my emotions have been weirdly steady.

            1. allathian*

              You sound very mature and self-aware about your situation. I hope your working hours are short enough that you can find something to be passionate about when you aren’t working.

          3. no sleep for the wicked*

            Plenty of outlets for passion & heart that don’t involve the risk of unemployment, eviction, food insecurity. ‘Comfortable and safe’ are conditions billions of people are striving for right this very moment. Don’t knock them.

      2. Happy Individual Contributor*

        One thing I haven’t seen mentioned in the responses: do you WANT to advance in your career? If you are happy where you are, and the compensation works for you, it is not a requirement to keep “leveling up.” Most people do want to take on new or different responsibilities at some point, but don’t feel like you need to get to Vice President by the time you’re 40 if you’re happy where you are.

        1. ecnaseener*

          YEAH that’s the question isn’t it? I don’t feel any particular desire to advance right now, no ambition burning in my heart, but who knows what I’ll want eventually.

    13. Fran Fine*

      You got all the way to the reference check stage, so something about this opportunity is intriguing to you. You said there’s higher growth potential and a higher title/salary to match, so yes, that’s reason enough to move on if you want to. I moved around a lot in my 20s, and I don’t regret it one bit. Everything I learned or experienced, good or bad, led me to the great position I’m in now and has set me up for even bigger things down the road. Don’t pass on this opportunity because you’re afraid of the future or the unknown. You could be missing out on something that could change your life for the better.

      1. ecnaseener*

        I mainly got here by trying to do my due diligence before saying no, haha! They only wanted one interview. I was feeling lukewarm after that, and asked the recruiter if I could talk to a non-manager to hear about the culture & management style. Instead I got a meeting with the hiring manager and one of her reports, together — so I didn’t get the candid information I was looking for.

        1. Fran Fine*

          LOL! It doesn’t sound like you care too much about this new position (or your current one), so in that case, stick with the devil you know until you find something that truly excites you.

    14. mreasy*

      Honestly, I would take it if you get a sense the culture/expectations are acceptable. This type of move early in your career pays dividends later on by putting you at a higher seniority and salary level… not worth being unhappy but worth seriously considering.

    15. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      Digging up references is going to be a pain whenever you move on from your first job. It gets slightlyyyy easier if you have more of a network before you have to do it, but it’s still a barrier. So if you stay until you’re a level 3 at your current job and do that job for a couple years, say you’re 30 and still at that job — how do you feel about that if it means you don’t have to deal with the reference issue and stress of change?

    16. cindy lou*

      You accepted an interview for a reason – maybe not reasons you’re really opening your eyes enough to see or are avoiding thinking about due to a natural nervousness about change.

      If you were 150% happy and not interested in other opportunities you wouldn’t have accepted an interview, so stay honest with yourself, and every time you think of a reason to take or not take the job, just keep asking yourself “why?” you think that reason, until you get to the bottom and the truth.

      1. ecnaseener*

        The reason really was just “might as well find out more, maybe it will wow me” and then it didn’t.

    17. HR Exec Popping In*

      My one piece of advice to people earlier in their career is to take the risk and say yes. A bump in responsibility and pay will pay significant dividends down the road if advancement is important to you.

    18. Double A*

      Is there any reason not to apply? It’s always good to keep your resume up to date and your job hunting skills fresh. If the opportunity seems exciting, digging up those references won’t seem like such a pain, and if it doesn’t, then references will be a moot point. I think it’s always good to know what else it out there

    19. ecnaseener*

      Thanks all for your advice! After thinking through your responses, including the ones saying things I didn’t want to hear, I feel like I was able to wrap my head around the question much better. I can’t know with 100% certainty that I won’t regret my decision, but I won’t be kicking myself for not thinking it through properly. (I also called my parents, who aren’t shy about telling me I’m being lazy or shortsighted, so it was a relief to hear that they didn’t think so.)

      I can now say with no small amount of relief that I called the recruiter and withdrew. I’m claiming this for Friday Good News! If I hadn’t read so much advice from Alison about really assessing the job while the interviewer is assessing you, I might have been taken in by the warm fuzzy “they like me!” feelings and forgotten to probe for as many details as I did.

      (Also thank goodness for AAM teaching me the importance of scripts. That recruiter made it haaaard to stick to my guns but I had written down scripts for it all.)

      2. DrRat*

        Sounds like you made the right decision for yourself at this point in time. But it sounds like you got some valuable advice and insight here by asking the question in the first place, and that will help as you move forward in the future. Best of luck!

    20. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Have you negotiated the salary yet? I mean, if you otherwise feel this could be a good opportunity, but it’s not quite enough to make you budge, you might be able to get a bit of a better offer. It’s worth a try, but only if you’re serious.

    21. Qwerty*

      My view is that you should be running towards something rather than running away. Are you worried about missing out about a job that’s great on paper or are you actually excited for this job?

      Sometime interviewing someplace new can also make you like your current job a lot better. I tend to talk to companies if an opportunity sounds intriguing, and my indicator for leaving is when I’m more excited about the new job than my current job.

      I think at 25 with a stable job that keeps you engaged, there’s no harm in you staying. And if you feel good about the new place, there’s no harm in taking it if you think you’ll want to stay there for however many years is normal in your industry. Go with your gut – the downside of having two good options is that you’ll probably feel regret no matter which one you choose.

  5. Should I apply?*

    Advice on coordinating others work when your approach to the work is completely different than those you are coordinating.

    I am a technical lead on a large project (not a manager) but am responsible for making sure that the technical work gets done correctly and in a timely manner. I’ve had this role on other projects without many issues, but on my current project I am really struggling. I think a large part of the issue, is that previously the people I’ve worked with have approached problems in a similar manner to how I do. Now I am working with someone who’s approach is completely different. I don’t think either of are approaches are ‘wrong’ but they fundamentally conflict with each other on something we have to work closely on.

    For a silly example, I think you should wash the llama before shearing and they think you should shear it and then wash it. We can’t shear and wash the llama at the same time. I could dictate the work, but I’m afraid it would seriously damage my relationship with my co-worker and cause them to be less engaged in the project. I could try their approach but as I don’t understand their logic it makes it very difficult for me to plan and track the status.

    1. Choggy*

      Is it a matter of the technical work not being done correctly and in a timely manner? Or is it a matter of control over the way they do things?

      1. Should I apply?*

        The problem is more of deciding what work should be done in what order. However, it can lead to work that I was expecting to be completed, not being done in a timely manner because they chose to work on something else that they thought was more important to the project. At this point we have had multiple discussions about what is the most critical but since we are approaching this from two very different view points its like we are talking past each other.

        1. Two Dog Night*

          Would there be any harm in going with this other person’s approach, as long as they can tell you in what order they’re going to do things so you can plan? I mean, if they’re really not prioritizing correctly you might have to get their manager involved, but if the end result will be the same it seems easiest to accept that they’re going to do what they want and plan around it.

        2. River Otter*

          So let’s say they were shearing the llama, and now washing the llama is behind schedule. What downstream of both washing and shearing has been impacted by washing the llama being behind schedule?
          I hate to get all program manager-y on you, but have you identified the critical path? How does the order of the activities impact the critical path and the overall length of the work? Also, who has the final authority on the schedule?
          You should really have at least a guideline schedule made up with critical path identified. That will tell you whether the order of the operations is really going to be a problem or not. If the order of the operations is going to be a problem based on critical path analysis and you have final authority over the schedule, then you have standing to ask your colleague to do things in the order dictated by the schedule. But if you don’t have a schedule, and you don’t understand with the impact to everything down stream really is, well, you actually have no idea what kind of risk you’re operating under. I recommend as a first step that you actually analyze with the impact of doing things differently would be.

    2. Dave*

      I would actually try to have a logic conversation with them where you both explain your logic for how you do things. You may disagree but if you can at least understand it that might help. When you explain your there maybe points the other person gathers. This can be tricky because they need to be open to an open honest conversation for it to work. I could also see in your example where there are times you way makes more sense, like the llama came caked in mud, but to them washing away the loose hairs after shearing the lama is easier and makes for a faster washing.

    3. Trawna*

      Have you asked them to fully explain their approach to you – why, benefits, downsides, etc?

      Also, a couple of times, I’ve asked people I’m training or managing to please humour me and do it my way for the sake of continuity or deadlines or an outside factor that they may not understand. I’ve then followed up with them later to both explain my reasoning and get my head around their methods. I like learning new tricks : )

      1. no sleep for the wicked*

        I do this too. I ask them to first learn it my way, and when they are consistently competent to feel free to sort out their own workflow as long as the end result works. I’ve learned some interesting hacks and usually people I’m training end up ‘getting’ why I do things a certain way.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m guessing this is something where there are no standard practices & procedures in your company for doing this?
      ie: Deploy database changes to test server, then run consistency checks, then write API, etc?

      If you’re the team lead, you ought to be the one setting priorities. If you are butting heads on this, that’s a management issue that needs to be addressed directly. “Fergus, I know you like to shear the llama first and then do the washing, but I’ve decided we need to do it the other way around because (a) testing needs to measure how much dirt gets washed off before the 1st of the month, etc.” And then hold them to that.

    5. Lady Danbury*

      It sounds like you’re trying to take the soft approach and let them use their method, but then getting frustrated when things aren’t done according to your method. You both need to be 100% on the same page about which method you’re using, instead of having expectations from one method but working out the other method. It could be your method as the technical lead or their method because you want to accommodate them. Either way you need to have a conversation about what method you’re going with and why, allowing both parties to ask questions so that the thoroughly understand the approach.

      1. Xenia*

        I agree. Pick a method–could be yours, could be theirs, could be a hybrid of both. But I think you won’t get anywhere much until you have something concrete that you can both refer back to for coordination purposes.

    6. CurrentlyBill*

      Start with the end result you want from them. Get clear on that, and as long as they get there in an appropriate manner, great.

      Is your end goal for them to deliver a clean, sheared llama? Then they should shear first

      Is your end goal for them to deliver clean pile of llama wool? Then probably showering the llama first is thew way to go.

      As long as they deliver the result you want on time, let them get there the way they want. But to give them that freedom, first you need to be crystal clear on exactly what you want from them and when. If they can do that by taking an eyebrow plucker to the llama, well that may seem stupid (and really likely to anger the llama) but that’s not necesarily your problem.

  6. Salary woes*

    I have had terrible luck in my last two salary negotiations and I’m having trouble getting over it.

    The first time, I was incredibly ill with bronchitis. The recruiter refused to delay the call despite my pleading, and I was gagging and hack-coughing throughout the conversation, repeatedly asking him to repeat himself because I was so sick. I was foggy-headed and kept drowning out his voice with my noises, plus my thinking was incredibly slow. He simply outmaneuvered me. I was resentful at the low-balling throughout the time I spent in that job.

    At my new job, we had horrible connectivity issues and the recruiter kept cutting out and echoing. I thought I got her to say the range, but the audio kept dropping (at the EXACT wrong times, to the point that I even got paranoid that she was hitting mute). She was clearly getting angry at my multiple requests for her to repeat herself and I got scared, so I quickly gave in and gave a range. Based on her reaction, I think the number I gave was lower than the number she gave, but I couldn’t effing hear her! I’ve only just started this job, but feel angry and taken advantage of.

    I’m so fed up. I can read pages and pages of tips about how to negotiate, but what’s the point when some outside factor screws me over? I like the work and the colleagues at my new job, but underneath I’m simmering at having the same thing happen twice, so mentally I have one foot out the door already. I don’t know what to do. Try to find another new job, and hope I don’t get screwed a third time? Put in the two years until I vest and move on, seething all the way?

    1. Handbasket*

      I so sympathize with this and feeling that you only have the one chance to negotiate. Which may be true. But I am big believer in the pause. If a recruiter or a hiring manager can’t wait for you to be well, then is that who you want to work with? Especially if you know you are going to resent the salary you end up with?

      The real question is would you rather have a job with a lower salary or would you risk not getting the job at all by waiting until you are really in a better position to negotiate. Wait until you aren’t sick, call back from a phone/internet with better reception, etc. By negotiating under circumstances where you or the tech aren’t at your best, you are already starting at a disadvantage. If you could let it go and be okay with that, fine. But you are furious! Those things were out of your control but you could mitigate them. That does takes some risk to do. Think of that as the beginning of the negotiation. Setting the call up to your advantage. It’s a risk but you might end up better in the end.

      I’m risk-averse myself, but I’ve ended up really devaluing myself in the end, so now I learn that I can pause. A little.

    2. lost academic*

      I think you’re going to have to decide if you can stand up for yourself more forcefully in these and similar circumstances. Not “can we delay this call because I am sick” but “I need to delay this call due to illness, could you suggest a time [next week]” and stick to that. If you’re having constant connectivity issues, find a tech solution or again, be clear about the need to stop and reschedule. Yes, it can burn a bridge, but is it one you had to have if they’re going to be aggressive about this kind of problem?

      I must also say that I’m not sure it’s right to call this an outside factor screwing you over at the end of the day- that’s the impetus – but it’s how you handle it. If they aren’t going to give you a choice in something you can’t control, what you CAN control is whether or not you are part of the discussion. No one is stopping you from making your statement about rescheduling clearly and firmly and hanging up. I know that the pressure of needing a job can create that kind of problem, though I didn’t see where you mentioned that this was an issue. Even still – I think this is about standing up for yourself at the right stage.

        1. irene adler*

          Yes – this!

          It takes strength to say this to an employer as there’s a fear of having them rescind the job offer. But if an employer is going to take unfair advantage (and hey, not offering to reschedule when the candidate is obviously ill IS taking unfair advantage), it might be better to lose out on the job altogether. Have to wonder what else they will try to put past an employee.

      2. Fran Fine*

        If you’re having constant connectivity issues, find a tech solution

        This. OP, if this ever happens to you again, please ask the person you’re speaking to to move the conversation to email so you can better understand what the offer is. Most good employers will be happy to do this, or even ask if they can call you direct on the phone if your internet is spotty. Don’t just assume you have to shout out a number when you couldn’t even hear anything that was said to you.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This.
          And if you sense that the person is fiddling with the connection somehow then bow out of the conversation entirely. This is highly manipulative. You should not be put in a position where you agree to something and you don’t know what it is you have agreed to.

          As far as being sick- send them an email. “I am unavailable due to illness and I would like to reschedule for x or y dates.” Then do not answer the phone.

          Take control of your setting. Someone who is a shady character might get rude. But a true professional will either select a new date or politely explain that this is not doable on their end and No manipulation involved.

    3. WellRed*

      I’m gonna be a bit of a hard ass. On the first one, what would have happened if you had absolutely been unable to have that call? He can’t literally make you take the call and pleading with him to reschedule probably put you at a bit of a disadvantage. On the second one, why not point out the connectivity issues and ask to reschedule? Even just quickly calling back on a different line? If you couldn’t hear her, the onus is on you to say that. At any rate, maybe it would help to practice negotiations with a friend rather than reading about how to negotiate.

      1. Generic Name*

        I agree. I do think the first company did you dirty and took advantage of your illness-related brain fog to get you to agree to a lowball salary. Seriously uncool. That said, they did not physically force you to have that call. “I’m sorry, I am too ill to take this call. It is simply not possible” and if they dig in their heels and call anyway. You do not have to accept the call and can let it go to voicemail. You might have lost out on that job, but it would have been a bullet dodged if they are so rigid they cannot reschedule a phone call when a candidate is ill.

        On the second call, I’d sit and think about why you felt scared when she got angry. I’m not saying it’s not a valid or understandable reaction, but there might be some stuff to unpack there.

        In both cases, I’m sensing that you have issues with boundaries. Others push and push and you give in. I don’t know if both situations were such that you were days from homelessness and needed those jobs, which is certainly a valid reason to feel like you HAVE to accept a job even at a low salary. But think about how you react when people don’t immediately give you what you want.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Or the solution might be ironing out a response to each one of the pitfalls if it ever happens again.

        What I see here is not true negotiation. True negotiation involves discussing rates of pay, benefits etc. Negotiation does not involve being sick and unable to follow a conversation nor does it involve guessing what is being said because of connections.

        I have to wonder if you just happen to get two shady people and you need to stay away from these two.

    4. pcake*

      You need to speak up if there’s a communication problem like these, and realize if someone responds poorly, either they’re a jerk or they’re a jerk and their company supports their jerkiness.

      Next time you’re that sick, put off salary discussions or any other discussions about important things till you’re doing better. After hearing you hack up a lung, a reasonable person would want to put off the conversation. An unreasonable person is a red flag IMO, and a sign this may not be a good company to work for.

      If you have a connection on phone or internet that’s so bad you can’t hear correctly, ask to reconnect and see if it improves things. Tell them you can only hear every other word, and you really want to hear what they have to say. If they don’t want to accommodate such a reasonable request, I’d say that’s another red flag. If the person gets angry, that’s a good sign this company is not a good one to work for. Don’t be scared – they can’t make you work for them, and if they want to bully you, you’d be better off washing dishes than working for bullies.

    5. Cold Fish*

      I understand it can be really frustrating to do your best work when you feel underpaid and taken advantage of. If you like your new job (and you say you’ve just started), can you put your energy into documenting and setting up a kick-ass argument for why you deserve a raise that you can take to your manager at the 6-month or 1-year mark.

    6. RagingADHD*

      I’m so sorry you’re in this situation! Whatever you do, I strongly suggest that you work on your whole concept of negotiation and your ability to assert yourself or you are guaranteed to wind up in the same type of scenario again and again.

      First off, salary discussions don’t need to be this adversarial. There should be no question of being “outmanouvered.” It isn’t an arm-wrestling contest. If they are extending an offer, then they want to hire you. You already got the job! You are on the same side, trying to make sure it’s a good situation for everyone.

      You know what you are willing to accept, they know what they are willing to offer. You’re just finding out if those two things overlap, and if it’s a close match but isn’t quite there, what else they could offer to sweeten the deal.

      You aren’t obligated to accept anything, and you should never feel bound by a verbal assent to anything, particularly if you couldn’t hear it in the first place! If it isn’t in writing, it isn’t real. And if you aren’t happy with it, you don’t have to take the job.

      Next, you literally couldn’t hear what they were saying, but you felt pressured by their tone to agree to something. You’re navigating these conversations by feel and tone rather than facts and content. This is a problem.

      The outside factors aren’t screwing you over. You are getting screwed over because you are proceeding with important conversations without being able to fully participate. You can reschedule. You can ask to get it in an email. You can ask to call back in. You can change the parameters of the conversation entirely. If it’s worth having the conversation at all, then it’s worth making sure you can actually participate. These things are a lot easier to “negotiate” than salary! They’re just basic expectations of having the discussion at all.

      Since you say you like the work and your colleagues, I’d suggest you stay put while you get this sorted out, because I’d be very surprised if this pattern only shows up in salary negotiations and nowhere else. A good stable job can be a great opportunity to practice healthy assertiveness and build self-efficacy that will then carry over into your approach to job seeking and salary discussions.

      I understand your feelings of resentment, but if you let the “woulda couldas” dictate your attitude and performance on the job, you will miss out on some good opportunities that may be are right in front of you. Try to put behind you and work with what you have, where you are, until you are in a stronger position.

    7. Binky*

      I don’t know that you can do anything about the current job. But if you ever run into something like this again, please feel empowered to politely tell the recruiter that you can’t hear them and will need to try a different time/method of communication.

    8. Calliope*

      So I would say there’s two things you can do when job searching that will basically stop this kind of situation from happening.

      1) Screen your calls. Let them go to voicemail and if it’s someone calling to discuss an offer, don’t call back until you’re ready and primed to discuss salary including how handle it if you’re asked for a range.

      2) Don’t say yes or no to anything on the spot. If you’re given an offer, take it and call back later after you’ve had time to think about it.

      With that, by all means start job searching now. There’s no reason to be resentful at work I’d you can find something else. But don’t start searching again until you’ve come up with plans to handle these types of situations. Like saying you can’t hear and will need to call back!

    9. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Well. It’s unfortunate you had these issues, but you know those are not the norm, right?
      And were they truly salary and benefit negotiations for a job offer after interviews, or just a phone screen getting an idea of your salary range?
      Because I don’t view phone screen comparisons of salary ranges as a “negotiation” at that stage of the game, it’s just assessing if you want to proceed or not. Ideally, they tell you what their range is first.

      If you do find yourself in a difficult spot, there is nothing wrong with saying that you’d like to see the offer via email because now is not a good time to talk on the phone, or there are technical difficulties and you cannot hear them. Politely tell them once you read it, you will respond within 1 hour, or by 5pm or something reasonably quick. I always prefer things in writing anyway so I make sure I’ve understood them.

    10. Koala dreams*

      I feel you! It’s so easy to know what to do beforehand, and then panic in the interview. Maybe it will help you to write out a few scenarios and how you want to deal with them?

      And yes, if you’re that unhappy with your new job, keep looking.

    1. Choggy*

      Some days I’m fine, some days no so fine. I try to plan the not so fine days for when I WFH, but doesn’t always work out that way. I have this developed this sense where I can *feel* someone else’s stress emanating from them when I talk to them in person and it makes me to uncomfortable. At this point, I’m wishing for a third WFH day, two isn’t enough.

      1. Burnout*

        I’m full WFH right now and it’s probably slowed down the burnout but it’s still just this relentless creep. I find myself actually missing being sick because it was a chance to guilt free sit in from of Netflix with hot tea and some junk food. I’m even (horrifyingly) jealous of my colleagues who are out for funerals. They have a good enough reason to not be answering emails. I have cut out early on slow afternoons but work has just picked up again and I’m going to have to work during my next vacation. I’m in sales so it’s just part of the deal – if you have a big deal coming up you HAVE to engage. Plus, ya know, it’s how we get paid.

        1. honoria*

          I wish I could be home “sick”–of course, I don’t want to actually be sick, I just want an excuse to be on the couch with no responsibilities, not braining . . .

      1. Burnout*

        Figured I wasn’t alone! Though I fear that everyone is somewhere on the burnout spectrum and it’s just… where we are two plus years into a pandemic :(.

        1. Same same*

          You’re not alone! I can’t even figure out why I’m burning out. I’m permanently WFH now and barely have to travel anymore (before the pandemic I was on the road 35-40% of the time and hated it). I should be ecstatic. Maybe the sameness of my days is contributing to it, but I’m bored and can’t find anything to get excited about. I’m also becoming increasingly frustrated with my coworkers too. I need to figure it out.

      2. no sleep for the wicked*

        I’ve only got 10 years, but that means transitioning into one of the little old ladies who are tucked into random corners doing busywork, and somehow finding a way to be ok with that because my fam depends on my wages and pension (assuming it’s still there in 10 years) too much to do anything else.

    4. Brains or Bust*

      Unfortunately my burnout wasn’t solved until I changed to a new company. I even tried to take off two weeks at my old company and the burnout only got worse. Best of luck my friend!

      1. Burnout*

        *shudder*. I can’t even imagine trying to job hunt and onboard with my current level of brain fog. I have deep relationships here that make it much easier for me to coast on my bad days but man 2022 has just been so busy!

    5. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Not well, I gotta say.

      I started a new job about six months ago, and while it’s much better for me in a lot of ways (shorter commute, better personality/temperament fit with coworkers, more support from leadership), my new job is on a leadership track which means I’ve spent most of the omicron surge scrambling to put out fires and cover staffing gaps. So, on paper, I thought this would be a job that offered me the breathing room I need to recover from the burnout I built up at the old place, but this week in particular has been really rough.

      1. Burnout*

        I would love nothing more than to take a 3 month sabbatical and then come back to my current job. It’d be easier than them backfilling my role and they’d get to keep my institutional knowledge! But it’s just not done. Though at this rate I might end up attempting to pull some FMLA!

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          Oh man, a sabbatical would be amazing. I took a week off between jobs and I really wish I had been able to afford more.

          1. no sleep for the wicked*

            Same. I love when faculty wish me a happy intercession/holiday break and I’m like yeah, staff work 365 yo. Or when they complain about not getting that second sabbatical in Provence…Staff sabbaticals would be utterly transformative, but higher ups prefer that we leave permanently so they can hire in fresh meat at lower pay.

        4. Joielle*

          My spouse recently took a month off using FMLA – he has a chronic condition exacerbated by stress and he was super burnt out, and his doctor was finally like, you can’t keep going like this, you need to take a break. His health was so dramatically improved by the time off that we decided it didn’t make sense to go back to the job at all. He’s looking for something different but he’s taking his time so he can find a good fit (we are very lucky to be able to live on just my salary for a while). I wish we had made this decision ages ago! If you have FMLA available to you, I say use as much as you can.

        5. LizWings*

          They do this in Australia! It’s called Long Service Leave. You get 13 weeks paid time off after you have been with the same employer for 10 years. That’s on top of the other great vacation time, salary, and benefits they normally get there, of course.

    6. Brian S.*

      Health care employee here. I did a bunch of research on burnout prevention for a federal grant I wrote – that we won! Only 10 were awarded to workplaces in the whole nation! One consistent intervention that has a lot of promise is, for lack of a better term, “GROSS” – Get Rid of Stupid Stuff. Leaders meet with folks on the ground and say “what’s the one thing – procedure, documentation requirement, workflow, etc. – that you would get rid of that would make your life easier and make outcomes better?” Then, the leader and a support team dig into it to see if they can actually get rid of it. The research said that about 66% of the time people thought it was a requirement beccause of external regulations or needs that other departments have, when in fact it’s outdated or even counterproductive. We’re excited about launching that program along with a bunch of other stuff – stress first aid, peer support hotlines, etc. I know this is based on managing large teams and not something an individual can usually do by themselves, but maybe there are opportunities to rally coworkers and find solutions to suggest management look at more closely?

      1. Burnout*

        This is GENIUS. I only have 1 direct report right now but I’ll be keeping this back pocket to raise with leadership. The acronym is making me really smile.

    7. JelloStapler*

      Letting go of what I cannot control or big picture things I cannot change. I tend to want to fix and help, but I have to put mental boundaries down on what I am willing to take on as my responsibility.

      1. Generic Name*

        This is the only thing that helps me. I am managing an insane number of projects PLUS working at a technical level on one project that has spun out of control. The piece I am working on is literally delaying construction of a major roadway project (the reason for the delay has to do with an unexpected turn of events having to do with some federal regulations). I am getting hounded to turn things around immediately, and I’m having to say, “look, this is just going to take me 3 weeks to get it back to you” and then not caring that some big construction company is losing millions of dollars. (I have management support to do this- it’s either frustrate one client or seriously piss off over a dozen). It really sucks.

        1. Burnout*

          “It really sucks” could be the tagline for 2022 (and most of this pandemic). I also work on multi-million dollar projects and it’s amazing how even the high dollars fail to motivate at this point. *gestures vaguely at the wretched state of the universe*

          1. Generic Name*

            Ha, yeah. I just don’t have it in me to give a crap that some multibillion dollar corporation has a slightly smaller profit than normal.

      2. Burnout*

        I have stopped checking e-mails over the weekend because I simply cannot bring myself to care and I so desperately need the time to rest. Except, we have a toddler, so rest is still deeply elusive. My (small) light at the end of the tunnel is that young kids might start getting vaccinated soon and once he’s protected I’ll feel comfortable taking him to museums and aquariums and libraries and all kinds of indoor events that get us out of the house. Parents are not ok and I definitely have had to channel my inner Frozen to Let it Gooooooo.

    8. J*

      Badly.

      I’m WFH with 2 school aged kids who haven’t seen the inside of the classroom much since before winter break. There’s just no end. I’m either trying to work while ignoring the kids, helping the kids with their virtual school while ignoring the pile of dishes in the sink, making lunch while ignoring my Slack messages, Slack-ing with colleagues while ignoring my spouse, or just collapsing into bed and ignoring everything. There is no way to be caught up.

      I’m trying super hard to be positive about everything: I have a great job, a great family, and none of us are sick. Still, though, I could really use a break.

      1. Burnout*

        *Pours you a cup of hot tea*

        I did not realize how many people would chime in on my post! So many people struggling :(. Kudos to you for trying to stay positive and I hope your kids can (safely) get back to school soon!

      2. NancyDrew*

        My husband and I realized today that our kids (including one with autism who needs special supports both in and out of school) haven’t had a full week of in-person school since early December. It’s TOUGH out there. Today I had to mute my (brief!) client call three separate times to attend to one kid’s needs because my husband was out picking up the other kid due to unanticipated early closures (weather). It’s just incessant.

        I spend a lot of time setting boundaries and enforcing them, and then just surrendering my to-do list.

    9. Cold Fish*

      Horribly, almost total shut-down at work. I spend a large part of my day online and I don’t feel guilty at all. I’m getting all my work done, yet, there are so many additional projects I could do if so inclined but don’t feel like that would be appreciated so why bother. At home, I spend most of my time just trying to recuperate. Unlike work, all the additional projects I don’t have the bandwidth to tackle add stress but I’m not sure what to else to do but keep plugging along.

      2. Burnout*

        I feel you! I… answer all my e-mails and take my calls and keep things moving along but I am not overperforming by any stretch of the imagination. And even the bare minimum feels like a struggle! I hope you can get a break soon.

      3. no sleep for the wicked*

        This is me, with a giant wet blanket of worrying if admin is going to clean house sometime based on…idk. I’m just not engaged and my workplace rewards engagement (as long as you’re in the cool kids club) with…hmm….more work/committee assignments/smiley faces…or at least a speck more agency in workload changes.
        When I wfh if I don’t have active projects or new requests on my ticketing queue, I just sit there. Too tired to even goof off at home (though I certainly used to when we were in full lockdown/wfh mode).

    10. CatCat*

      Poorly. I don’t sleep well, am not making the best nutritional choices, cry several times per week, and had to cancel taking today off for rest because there’s just too much to do.

      1. Generic Name*

        I have a question that sounds flippant, but is serious: will anybody die if you don’t check off all of the tasks on your to-do list today? Unless people’s lives are literally on the line, I wouldn’t sacrifice your mental health to get stuff done for your job.

        2. H*

          As someone who used to work on an inpatient psychiatric unit and and emergency dept ( I don’t anymore)… I always think about my work now in this context and everything else just doesn’t seem as important because I am not dealing with life and death. Late emails, late phone calls, late data entry. It isn’t as important as some others think it is.

      2. Burnout*

        Cried 3 times on Wednesday and just ate a box of mac n’ cheese – solidarity CatCat! My sun lamp helps incrementally but the world just feels so overwhelming right now…

        1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

          I’ve literally been scheduling “cry breaks” between meetings — since I’m back-to-back-to-back on Zoom all day, I’ve been enforcing a 5 minutes before the hour end time — because otherwise I’d probably cry on zoom in front of my whole team at least once a day. CatCat and Burnout, I so empathize and hope things get better for you soon.

    11. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      Not well, my friend, not well. It’s such a tough time. I’m only doing kind of ok now because we were so insanely overwhelmed with work from December 1 until mid-January (I work on the COVID response) that now that we’re only regular busy it seems like a relief. Taking walks on my lunch break helps except the weather has been crummy for a week now. I have cats, so those are nice. I’ve been watching a lot of Disney plus.

      1. Burnout*

        Omicron was a WALLOP. If you haven’t seen Encanto yet, it’s outstanding. Made me cry, but they were cathartic tears.

        1. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

          I’ve watched it 3 times and listened to the soundtrack many, many more times lol

        2. Shirley Keeldar*

          I listened to Luisa’s anthem about carrying it all and feeling so desperate under the surface and thought, “you and me, girl,” and burst into tears.

        1. Raboot*

          I feel very lucky to have been able to negotiate and afford this. I was actually able to take a decent amount of time off at once at my old job, but everything came rushing back on day 1 back – it was clear a change was needed.

    13. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      It is so bad. I just took two weeks off — which normally does wonders for my morale — and came back feeling even crappier. I lead a medium-sized team and have been documenting for HR how much time I’m spending managing bullying from coworkers directed at my team — it has literally been 50% of my time this month. As a result I’m behind on every deliverable I’m responsible for. I seem to be the only senior manager saying “the way people are treating each other isn’t ok and we are going to do something about it,” and there’s no interest from leadership in acknowledging that we’re still all juggling a bajillion personal stressors in the middle of a pandemic (see: childcare, elder care, personal illness). The worst part is, in my industry, everyone operates this way, so changing jobs gets me nothing.

      1. Same same*

        I’ve been thinking about this since you posted it because it really resonated with me. I think that’s a big part of my burnout too. My team is overworked and understaffed, and I spend so much energy fiercely protecting them from the people who treat them like they’re just not doing their jobs because I know that they are burning out too, or they’re really close. I’m trying desperately to get them some help, but it’s exhausting and in the meantime I’m trying to keep the wolves at bay and it’s taking a real toll on me. And I have to do it. If they all quit en masse it’ll be even worse (I’ve told a coworker that if my team walks I’ll be right behind them). Anyway, I feel your pain and am right there with you.

    15. Double A*

      Prioritizing exercise, because it makes everything else more manageable. I’m WFH with 2 kids under 3; fortunately our child care has been reliable. Still, it would be very easy to let exercise slip, and I have to make that a sacred commitment in my schedule or everything else really spirals.

    16. OtterB*

      Not well. Emailed my boss recently to apologize for being late on a task because I’ve hit a pandemic brick wall. And, really, I have no excuse – very minimal personal impact from anything. Just *waves hands around*.

      I am trying to keep my to-do list very concrete. Not “finish report,” which is normally enough, but Finish Table A, Finish Table B, Review Charts 1-10, assemble footnote list.

    17. H*

      Tooks yesterday and the day before as sick days and it was just for my mental health. Should have taken today too. Have a tenative job offer pending…will the grass be greener?

    19. Qwerty*

      The best thing that’s happened for me is a Friday afternoon meeting where my brain just checks out afterwards. It’s a bit stressful (presenting to execs) but I feel like justified in taking a break after, which starts my weekend off right.

      I’ve also set some boundaries where I work long hours Mon-Fri, but then actually enjoy the weekend
      – Schedule stuff away from the computer
      – Turn off notifications. Slack lets you set notification hours, or snooze notifications for a set time (also helpful during the workday if actually trying to get stuff done).
      – Hide my work laptop if I’m really feeling it
      – Find something to do with my hands, its very therapuetic and gives the mind a break. Might be knitting/crochet, might be scrubbing something (my apartment messy but very clean because scrubbing baseboards helps my brain more than putting stuff away)
      – Communicate to my team in a low key way what my work hours are regularly. Nothing serious or a big announcement, but it made me feel better about not responding to messages during my “off” time because my extra hours might be early morning vs Jane’s are late at night vs Fergus who has productive Saturdays. We end up laughing together about the work we have to do
      – Find ways to laugh and smile

    20. no sleep for the wicked*

      I try hard not to kick myself when some days turn into refreshing AAM and Not Always Right in between reading workish newsletters & such I subscribe to.
      My job has a huge feast or famine aspect so burnout is extra hard to deal with during slow times because I feel like I have no excuses. Busy times are hella stressful but at least I’m too busy to feel burned out until I’m done for the day.

    21. Sparkly Librarian*

      As a government employee, I’m holding on with teeth and claws and eyes fixed on the upcoming 4-day weekend occasioned by Lincoln’s Birthday and Presidents Day. Not sure yet what I will be doing when not working, but it will involve carbs and trees and people not needing me.

    22. Buran*

      Walking the dog every morning even when I don’t want to, to stay active. Making time to go to the gym once a week.

    23. Anon for this*

      Very badly. House is so bad I can’t find the toaster (stuff all over kitchen counters) & feel too embarrassed to let anyone in even if I felt safe doing so, I barely shower, I’m messing up work stuff & evenwith only having a few on campus days (HE lecturer) end up calling out of some of them because I can’t handle doing the work AND leaving the house. Feeling gas lit by government (UK), whole world is depressing…

  8. Seeking Purely Allegorical*

    Hello! Last week you answered a question from Anonymous Reader about changing from being an editor to being a consultant and then picking up skills from different accounts.

    Could you talk some more about that? What kind of consulting firm did you join? And did they train you for the different skills for different accounts?

    1. Jack Straw from Wichita*

      Alison doesn’t read these comments. The post is for readers to ask other readers. :)

    2. Marketing Middle Manager*

      I worked at a management consulting firm for a specific industry, and we hired people all the time with general humanities skills but no specific work experience in consulting. Bonus points though if they had experience with the industry. Unfortunately the job titles are all over the place, but try looking for something like “Research Analyst” or “Qualitative Research”. And/or go the other route and look for consulting firms in the industries you find interesting, and then look at their career pages. You’ll see from the JDs, the primary skillset is being able to read a lot of information, synthesize & summarize it, then write about it.

      Another similar option would be to do consulting FOR editing/content. This job would probably be within a marketing agency and would be called something like Content Strategist.

  9. Freddy*

    Loaded question, but how do I tell my company I’m dealing with a stalker, when I haven’t had any success in getting an order of protection? Should I tell them at all?

    Short summary: I dumped and cut contact with an ex after she threatened to share compromising photos of me (this sort of activity wasn’t illegal in my state when it happened). Since then she’s been trying to pass messages through our remaining mutual friends and new social media accounts every couple months. I block them and tell the friends to stop passing the messages, but last week she found my current girlfriend’s Instagram and sent her a message accusing me of stalking her and her fiancé.

    We went to a family/DV lawyer, but he was pessimistic on our chances, because the stalker lives in another state across the country. and because of that, her asking others to pass messages (“StalkerName wants to know how you are and if you’ve unblocked her”) is borderline. We’ve considered my girlfriend getting a restraining order on the stalker, but the stalker hasn’t tried to circumvent that block yet. I’ve considered getting a lawyer to write and send a C&D, return receipt requested, but with her now saying I’m stalking her, I’m worried that it’d prompt an escalation.

    That’s all a little off topic, but should I tell my boss/HR? How do I do that without sounding like I have skeletons in my closet?

    1. NotRealAnonForThis*

      So…I’ve had to give my PTB a heads up on something sort of similar.

      Quick background – extended family member, complications of multiple jurisdictions

      All I said was “if Company is contacted by FamilyMemberinQuestion, please do not confirm nor deny that I work here, please give no information, and please do not give out my individual company cellphone or email. I’m asking discretion be used if FamilyMemberinQuestion provides Company any “information” about me, and to please consider the source”. Company responded by updating or implementing policies having to do with giving out employee information, and removed individual contact information from the publicly available website. It didn’t really become a thing with them, and the fact that I had a FamilyMemberinQuestion behaving questionably did not reflect upon my ability to do my job.

      1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

        I’m really happy that your work was supportive of you in such a lousy situation not of your own making.

        1. Freddy*

          +1!

          I have written for the company blog, so that’s something I need to figure out how to handle …

          1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

            Is there any way you could get your name removed from the blog posts and have the byline just attributed to the company?

            1. Freddy*

              Interesting question…I don’t want my stalker to cause me more problems by going ballistic with lies about me being the real stalker in the comments on a blog post. That’s another possible venue for her to harass me aside social media.

              On the other hand, I’m proud of what I’ve written, it’s on my resume, and I shouldn’t have to cower and hide because of someone else’s antisocial behavior. And if they are, that doesn’t stop her from hassling me and making a bunch of tweets along the lines of “@Company your employee @Freddy is stalking and harassing me and my fiancé!”, either under her real name or anon accounts.

              The best possible outcome I can envision is one where she just Goes Away. Failing that (sadly looks like it is), I don’t want to have to deal with it. What does not having to deal with it look like? I guess it looks like if she does try to start something and lie about my conduct, everyone knows it’s completely made up and shuns/ignores her… I guess at this point, talking with my boss and our HR team is the best way to get that done. They’re fantastic people, but I have dragged my feet on it because 1) I’m not sure how to have that conversation and 2) this is a lot more sensitive than anything else I’ve had to discuss with them.

              As a side note: I think physically showing up to one of our locations is pretty unlikely, because of both distance, and causing a scene at my employer’s physical stores or offices seems like it would be much more likely to get her arrested or charged with something.

          2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

            Also, I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this! It’s not your fault and you don’t need to be ashamed. Any manager who’s a halfway decent person would be happy to help keep you safe.

    2. HigherEdAdminista*

      I wonder if the threats she has made are making you feel like this is something to be ashamed of, when really you aren’t doing anything wrong.

      I think if you went to your boss and said something like: “I wanted to let you know about a personal matter that has to due with my potential safety. I ended an unhealthy relationship x amount of time ago, and my ex-partner has stalked me since. I have done all I can to block her, but she still attempts to make contact with me and with people close to me. She has made threats that she will say or do harmful things to misrepresent my character. I wanted you to be aware so we can take x and y action to protect my safety here/let you know that this person might try contacting people at work and see if we can discuss how this should be handled if it does happen.”

      You don’t have to reveal any private information. You can let them know what kind of support you need (not appearing on the company website, making sure that employees are trained not to give out information to callers about any employee, security at the site, in case she is likely to show up). It sounds like she thinks she could make threats to get you in trouble (releasing photos, acting as if you are stalking her) and she hopes these will be enough to get your attention, and it is totally normal for that to rattle you, but you have nothing to be ashamed of and you aren’t doing anything wrong.

      You have to remind yourself that everyone has a private life, and I think most people who know you will be more concerned about your safety and well-being than anything else.

      1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

        This, except I don’t think you need to say the relationship was “unhealthy” or how long ago the relationship ended. Just say a former partner is making threats that you consider to be realistic, and it might affect your workplace/coworkers (if she calls or reaches out to them). You have nothing to be ashamed about!

      2. Artemesia*

        Probably every company should make it clear to all employees that if they get a call asking for information about a co-worker that they should not give out information. This is not just for the OP but for everyone. People are helpful. Someone calls and ‘has had trouble reaching OP, can you help?’ and the normal response is ‘sure, let me get your their number’ if they are not sensitive to this issues. There is probably at least one other person in the company at similar risk. There needs to be some company wide training on this.

        My husband has a really common name — like there are probably thousands in the US. We used to get collection calls for someone with the same name for a hospital we never used. When they didn’t get us to pick up at home (after a few attempts to shut it down) one of these collectors contacted him at work. Making it hard for people to work their way to any individual at work is in everyone’s interest.

        1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

          That’s great unless you’re in a position that works heavily with the public or multiple clients. I had people who’d forget my number but remember my name, and ask our reception number to put them through to me. Or they’d just want to verify my name for dozens of innocent reasons, like updating their contact database or giving me credit in an article. We can’t all live anonymously.

      3. Freddy*

        Good advice, but going off gut, I’m gonna have to agree with Lunch Eating Mid Manager. IMO, the only details of this relationship, that are relevant to my employer, are:

        1. I have avoided all contact with Stalker Ex for years. We have no shared children, shared property, a business, or anything else together. I dated her, it’s over, open and shut. Zero reason for her to need contact with me.
        2. Despite #1, Stalker Ex has escalated her attempts to interfere in me living my life with zero interaction with her, by finding my current girlfriend’s contact info and using that to lie to my current girlfriend, that I am stalking her and her fiancé. This isn’t true, but I’m concerned about blowback from her escalating. It didn’t happen, and wouldn’t hold up in a court of law, but if she is sufficiently dedicated and/or she doesn’t care about her reputation, she could Google bomb or spam up Twitter with this.
        3. I’m trying to get an order of protection against my Stalker Ex. I haven’t had much success yet, but I am actively trying.

        So I have a lot of concern about her escalating to my professional life because she’s losing all “channels to me” she feels she has. My work is semipublic, because I write for our company blog etc., but I’m also uncomfortable airing my dirty laundry with my boss and HR, and don’t know how to. That’s why I’m here. :)

        Sorry for the really wordy replies, I’ve been amped up and anxious about this because I don’t feel like this is my employer’s business (I’m on great terms with my bosses and HR, but this is 100% personal life and I feel uncomfortable bringing it up at work). And honestly, also because I feel like people treat a woman stalking a man less seriously than vice versa; everyone expects a creepy man or an ex-boyfriend to stalk a woman, and a weirdo ex-girlfriend harassing her former boyfriend is seen as weird. Not trying to make a political point, I don’t think women being stalked should be taken lightly, but just based on tone from other interactions, I have gotten this feeling.

        1. HigherEdAdminista*

          Yes, definitely! I included the “unhealthy” descriptor more to communicate “this was a good decision for me and I am happy about not being in the relationship,” because I was thinking about that situation where sometimes people don’t take men being stalked as seriously (thinking it might make a person prone to judgement see you want no part of this), but it isn’t necessary at all.

          It isn’t their business, but if you choose to let them know, it is for your own well-being. You have nothing to be ashamed of, and while people might judge they are wrong to do so. I know that doesn’t eliminate anything you are experiencing, but hopefully these folks know you and will want to support you.

          1. wondering*

            Just wondering, since the poster did not indicate their gender, why you are basing your suggestions off the baseline assumption that the poster is male – they may not be. Regardless of gender, they are not obligated to share overly personal details about this past relationship with their employer as a means of mitigating any potential gender bias about the severity of their claims; if their employer handles their case differently (once they have finally been made aware) based on the employee’s gender, that’s a whole other issue.

            2. Freddy*

              I’m a guy and I’m active in our company’s fitness club,. TBH, that’s probably a subconscious reason I’ve held off on it. I could’ve just thought, not actively, but “our HR guy knows I’m a big tall man who could bench press this lady without breaking a sweat, he’s not gonna take this seriously”

        2. Parakeet*

          I’m so sorry that you’re dealing with this, Freddy. And I agree with you about the gender angle. I also want to validate that it’s really common for stalkers to make false accusations or spread rumors as a stalking technique.

          Particularly given the fact that a lot of this stalking is technological, you might benefit from the National Network to End Domestic Violence’s technology safety project’s apps for evidence documentation. That way, if your work wants documentation for whatever reason, you will have some, even if you are not successful in getting a protection order. Also, if you google the Stalking Awareness Center, they have a less tech-oriented documentation log template. https://www.techsafety.org/safetynetapps

          You may also want to consider talking to a domestic violence organization in your area – you should be able to get a local referral through the National Domestic Violence Hotline. The reason why I am suggesting this, is because sometimes an advocate at a domestic violence org can do things like write a letter if need be (whether for your employer, or for a court, or some other relevant situation) explaining that you’re the one being stalked, in case your ex starts making accusations more publicly on social media, or directly to the company, and the question of who’s stalking whom comes up.

          Good luck. I’ve had people I care about go through similar situations, and am familiar with how grueling and demoralizing it is.

          2. Ezri Dax*

            Seconding these really great suggestions. Another thing local domestic violence organizations can help with is finding a therapist and/or support groups that understand the dynamics of stalking and abuse, if you feel like you can benefit from that type of support. A few of the organizations in my area run men’s groups. Men go through this a lot more than people realize, and the perpetrator being female doesn’t make it less scary. I’m so sorry you’re facing this, and I wish you all the best in getting this resolved.

      4. Can Can Cannot*

        You might want to try getting a different attorney. Some are like pitbulls, some are like poodles. You need someone more like a pitbull.

    3. Rey*

      At this point, has the stalker done anything specific to your work environment? It sounds like it’s mostly been through social media and mutual friends. That’s how I would decide if you should tell your boss/HR. And if you were to talk to your boss/HR, what specific thing are you asking for their assistance on, or warning them about? For example, do you want to ensure that your ex doesn’t have any information about you or can’t enter your work building, or are you concerned that she will share the compromising photos with your company? From there, I would keep it very short and matter of fact with your boss, “I just wanted to give you a heads up that an ex is trying to get back at me. I’m working with the legal authorities, but I wanted to mention it to you in case she [tries to visit me at work, sends compromising photos, etc.] I wanted to make sure you heard it directly from me.”

      1. Freddy*

        Lotsa questions. I hope you don’t mind if I quote and reply to each individually, even though that’ll make a long comment.

        At this point, has the stalker done anything specific to your work environment?

        A while back, I got a LinkedIn notification that she viewed my profile. I instantly blocked her off LI too, of course.

        And if you were to talk to your boss/HR, what specific thing are you asking for their assistance on, or warning them about?

        I’m afraid she’ll escalate further, since she started at “I want to apologize and be in your life again” and jumped to digging up my current girlfriend’s Instagram so she can send her messages, lying that I’m not over her and harassing her and her fiancé. I dunno whether this is or rational or not, as I’m a worrier but this is so far beyond normal conduct that my stalker sending revenge porn of me, or taking this to social media, making posts like “@Freddy, an employee of @ACME, has been stalking me and my fiancé” to make my life harder both seem possible.

        For example, do you want to ensure that your ex doesn’t have any information about you or can’t enter your work building, or are you concerned that she will share the compromising photos with your company?

        I’m less worried she’ll send the photos of me to my boss/HR, since that would be clear cut revenge porn. I’m mostly worried about her making a scene at either our offices/stores (I perform a back office type of job at an e-tailer with a few real world locations), or online. A real nightmare scenario would be her getting a job here, though I get the feeling that that’d get way more complicated

        Your advice for how to phrase it is good. I would and also add that she is hassling my girlfriend now, too.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Do you have a written list of everything she has done so far and what you have done to block her?
          If you do not have a written list with dates (ideally) then now is a good time to construct one.

        2. N'Anemoose for this*

          I’m assuming that both you and your girlfriend have specifically told her not to contact you again? If you haven’t – you need to, in writing, tell her not to call, text, email, approach you, contact you on social media, or any other method, etc. If she hasn’t sent you anything recently I wouldn’t preemptively do it – but your girlfriend certainly should. Not that law enforcement will do anything – but if they consider it they always ask this first.

          You could tell your work that an ex hasn’t taken your decision to cut contact well, and is actively attempting to go through others in an effort to get your information and contact you. When you do this you can ask what their current policy is on handling employee information, and if they would be willing to send that around as a reminder. This also prompts them to consider implementing one if they don’t – and every company should for just these kinds of reasons!

      2. Artemesia*

        You want the company to have a policy KNOWN by everyone that if someone calls them to get information about reaching anyone else in the company, that they should give out no information even to confirm they work there.

    4. Mockingjay*

      First, before discussing with your company, call or file a report with local law enforcement. You want the situation on record. They likely won’t do anything at this point, but can advise you on what steps to take if she contacts you or your girlfriend again: who to call, what to say/not say, how to document the interaction, etc. Law enforcement can also provide better POCs to get an effective no contact order than a divorce lawyer.

      Next, when you do discuss it with your company, bring it up as a security issue in a matter-of-fact way: “Here’s the situation, I’ve taken these steps with law enforcement. If she contacts or shows up on company premises, how can we best handle it?” These days most companies have thought about or encountered this problem and probably already have guidelines.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Definitely get ahead of this with Boss/HR. As it appears she still has contact with mutual friends, she probably knows where you work and will eventually get around to trying to contact you through them. Or she may give them false information about your stalking her. They need to hear your side of the story now, before you are in defensive mode.

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        And this is why what I did worked. I got “ahead” of the issue, before it became “so FamilyMemberinQuestion said that X, Y, and Z….could you explain?” as that was his MO.

        1. Freddy*

          Good point. My boss has actually met my girlfriend in passing (she stopped by the office before we went out to Valentine’s Day dinner one year, and we are friendly outside of work, so we had a quick “hey nice to meet you” chat). But asking her to talk to HR or my boss seems even messier and should be avoided.

          I will set a meeting with HR for Monday and craft a message based on all the advice we’ve gotten here. Thank you!

    6. Generic Name*

      I had a sit down with HR and told them I felt physically threatened by my ex. Luckily, it was just after we had a training on workplace violence, so I knew that HR would be receptive, because domestic violence was one of the issues highlighted. And what’s wrong with “having skeletons in your closet”? This is not your fault, and you are not to blame for the actions of your stalker.

    7. PattM*

      Great advice in this thread, hope all goes well for you. As far as the still mutual friends go, if you have clearly told them to not pass on messages from her and they continue to do so, block them from your life and socials. A friend would honor your request to not share any info about you. Best of luck.

      1. Freddy*

        As far as the still mutual friends go, if you have clearly told them to not pass on messages from her and they continue to do so, block them from your life and socials. A friend would honor your request to not share any info about you.

        I’m fairly certain that in most of these cases she’s left out what she did, it’s more like “I don’t have Freddy’s number anymore, can you tell him I said hi?”. And what she did was super sensitive; I didn’t post a FB status or text all our mutual friends saying “hey, Stalker did this, she’s a bad person, do not talk to her.” Fortunately (or unfortunately; anything more than 0 is too much IMO) I’ve only had to cut one person off for Not Getting It.

    8. DJ Abbott*

      Having read this thread it sounds like your ex has been stalking you for several months, maybe longer.
      That seems like a really long time. Many of us have revenge impulses after getting dumped, but for most of us that goes away in a few days or weeks and we move on.
      So I think you should be prepared for her to escalate further, because it seems like she’s really obsessed with getting back at you. Take advice from lawyers and police, as suggested, on ways she might escalate and have plans in place in case she does. Be sure to take good notes that you can refer to. Good luck!

      1. Freddy*

        It’s been over a year. These contacts are intermittent, but I still get either pings over new social media or messages passed from friends who aren’t in the loop, once every few months. I know that persistent behavior and the escalation by telling my girlfriend that I’m not over her and stalking her implies some stuff, but I’d rather not go down that road — all I want is to be left alone. As long as she doesn’t try to mess with my life, I don’t care at all about what she does. And there’s no reason for her to be involved in my life; think I said it before but we don’t have any children or property together, and we weren’t married. This is just a regular old stalker ex situation, just with the expected genders flipped.

        I set up chats with HR and my boss tomorrow. I’ll fill in the AAM community next open thread.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          Yes, but she hasn’t moved on and normally a person would have moved on about a year ago. To me that sounds like she’s going to keep doing this until she’s stopped, or finds something else to obsess about.
          It won’t hurt to be prepared in case she does escalate. Better to have and not need preparation than to need and not have.

  10. WFH is all I Want*

    I got a job offer but now I’m in the background check phase and I’m in a bind.

    I’ve lived and worked in a few different countries over the past ten+ years and my new employer requires a criminal background check for each one. (I passed them all for my current employer a few years ago.) They’re using HireRight for the checks.

    My start date is mid February and I’ve already put in my notice at my current employer.

    Today, the background check updated and it estimates one of the countries will be completed in late March—four weeks after my start date. I’ve emailed the recruiter asking how we should handle it but haven’t had a response yet.

    I am panicking. I can’t afford to go a month without income and I’m illogically terrified that the report will come back with a mark against me and I’ll be out of two jobs and unemployable for the next four years (until it’s been longer than ten years since I worked in that country).

    Has anyone else been in this situation as the recruiter, hiring manager, or new hire? What did you do?

    Help.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Try not to panic. Wait for more info from the recruiter, first. Would your current job be at all amenable to pushing back your end date? It’s also possible you could start contingent on the background check coming through clean.

      There’s no reason to suspect that anything negative would come back — you would know! Sometimes these things just take longer than they should. I had been a contractor at a company for about 5 years when they hired me on FTE, and even though I’d worked there for so long, they were required to do a background check. Part of what took so long was that the company (I think it was HireRight) was having trouble verifying that I had, in fact, been a contractor there for all that time. Which was hilarious to me – I was like, I have eyewitnesses!

      1. WFH is all I Want*

        I think it’s down to the company they’ve contracted to do the search. They haven’t been able to verify my current employer either which is another issue but easier to resolve. I have all paystubs and W2s but I’m concerned about providing them since I negotiated a 50% raise (more that I am so underpaid with 15 years of experience than an expert negotiator).

        I’m also considering applying for the police clearance myself. If I do it directly, the turn around time is two weeks. The draw back is it’s $250 dollars but it might be peace of mind that there isn’t some long overdue toll road payment or a parking ticket I don’t know about.

        I also have 200 hours of PTO accrued at my current employer so they will cash that out but I really want to save it instead of use it to pay rent and living expenses for a month.

        Should I call the recruiter on Monday if I still haven’t heard back?

        1. PX*

          I would ask if they would reimburse you the $250 if you did it to expedite the process. I’ve had to do something similar and the company was happy to pay for it.

        2. ThatGirl*

          I think calling again Monday would be fine. And I agree about asking to be reimbursed for expedited handling.

    2. Picard*

      I know this doesnt help you now but for everyone else reading, dont put in your notice until your background check is complete.

      For your current situation, I think you have to just wait until the recruiter gets back to you.

      1. WFH is all I Want*

        I really wish I’d held off. I’d rather negotiate a short notice period than navigate a potential period of unemployment. It’s never taken more than 5 business days for this country so I didn’t think it would be any different this time.

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          You wouldn’t need to negotiate a shorter notice period. Any delay is due on your new employer, so they will need to wait for the background check to complete + X weeks for a notice period. You would put in your resignation, including any notice period, after the background check finishes. If that causes them to wait, they wait.

      2. anonymous73*

        Honestly I’m surprised the new place gave them a start date before the background check was complete. I had to get a public trust clearance for my current job last summer and it took 8 weeks before it was completed. That’s when we figured out my start date (I was unemployed at the time so notifying a current company wasn’t an issue. Sorry I know it’s not helpful, but I’m not sure there’s a solution here other than asking your current company if you can push back your end date.

    3. I.*

      The company that did my international background check sent preliminary reports from each country. One took very long and the hiring company had the other 2 and then had me start, barring issues coming up in the 3rd/complete report. Maybe there’s a workaround like that for you too?

      1. WFH is all I Want*

        I’m hopeful. My current role is in the fintech space and needed extensive and in-depth background checks. The new role is in cybersecurity and it still requires background checks. I also haven’t left the U.S. since those were completed for my current job because of Covid and there’s no way I could have even traveled back to the country in question to commit any offenses because they closed their boarders.

        But then my mind wanders and I wonder if someone has committed credit card fraud with my stolen details, or if the people I sold my car to used it to commit a crime…it’s thoughts like that that are adding to my panic.

        1. All Het Up About It*

          Whoa! Those thoughts are full on catastrophizing! Try and recognize them as such and focus on more realistic roadblocks and what you can do to counteract them.

          The suggestions above of pushing back your end date at current company, paying for your own background check to expedite the process, possibly starting contingent on the background checking coming back clear are all great, logical solutions that you could consider and try and implement on Monday. Also, from what it sounds like the most logical worst case scenario (excluding the catastrophizing) is that you would have to live off the cashed out PTO and not build your savings. Agree, that’s not great, but could you also consider short term fills for that time? Could you work as a contractor at your current place for a month? Could you drive Uber or Shipt? Could you use websites live Fivver to do some feelance items? Try to come up with possible solutions for scenarios that are probable. Knowing that you have options and solutions for worst case scenarios, should help you combat the anxiety. I haven’t had to have such an intensive background check done, but the last one I had, there was a flag that came back on it. I was panicked, but HR just shrugged it off. They hadn’t even gotten the results yet and said it was probably just a date discrepancy. I never heard any more about it, so I figure it was something like I said a started an old job on the wrong day of November or some such.

          Also – consider that 250 dollar for the personal background check… would that be worth it just to cut the catastrophizing thoughts off?

          Sending lots of positive energy your way. Hope you come back next week to update us with a very positive update!

    4. Katie*

      Honestly you need to see what the company’s policy is from the recruiter about incomplete background checks (which you have).
      I work for a large company and we are having problems getting background checks being done timely. We have not been able to onboard those people until the check is done. One hire was delayed months (!!) because of it.
      Smaller companies probably can let it slide. Bigger companies (like mine) have so much red tape that we couldn’t even though we wanted to.

      1. WFH is all I Want*

        My current employer and soon-to-be (I hope) employer are both giant global tech companies so there’s a lot of red tape. The offer letter does state the position is contingent on the background checks. The recruiter pushed me to give a start date so I chose one 4 weeks out to give it all time to clear. But I got the impression she wanted me to start immediately and asking for 4 weeks instead of the standard 2 really bothered her.

        I’m worried they’ll pull the offer and try to hire one of the other candidates.

        1. Midwest Manager*

          At this point, there’s no benefit for them to hire a different candidate – they’ll have to do the full background check on any other candidate they attempt to hire which would delay a start in the role even further. They now have sunk costs in you, and there’s nothing here to indicate they would pull the offer and move on.

          FWIW, my organization uses HireRight also, and they’re notorious for slow responses on checks from other countries. Many large organizations require that these activities be completed by their vendors, and won’t accept an employee-provided report. I recommend saving your $250 and attempt to delay your end date at your current employer. If you cannot do that, use the PTO payout to bridge your costs until the check is finished.

        2. Hillary*

          They’re not going to pull the offer. You’re a desirable candidate in a candidate’s market. Hang in there.

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      Unfortunately background checks that involve multiple countries do take a long time in the best of times. And these are not the best of times. During covid we have seen the amount of time increase significantly. This is because of lockdowns and staffing shortages. I doubt there is much that can be done. Most employers will not waive the background check for a host of valid reasons. And your offer letter likely stated the offer was contingent on the background check. I always encourage people to not put in their resignation until they have passed the background screen and have an un-contingent offer.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I am not clear on the details of how this works. But my thought is if you have a copy of the last time HireRight did a BG check, perhaps they would accept that so you can start the job on time.

      Because of how concerned you are, I have to ask is there something else here? Did you check out this new employer thoroughly? Could it be your gut is saying do not take this job?

      For situations like this Alison’s advice is the best. You don’t have a job until you actually have a job. Would you consider sending out other applications now? It might give you some insight to this situation or it might just take your mind off your nervousness.

      1. WFH is all I Want*

        I’m so anxious about this job because it’s such a breakout role for me and my career path for a well known company that will strengthen my resume. The other thing playing into my anxiety is how quickly they wanted me to start. I was bored to actual tears in my current position and the potential of this new role excites me.

        My anxiety driven thought process is they pull the offer since it’s estimated to take another six weeks (it’s already been two weeks and with how quickly it went from interview to offer they could easily hire an American and have them start in three weeks). If they do that I’m unemployed and any company who hires me next will also get stuck waiting on my background check. This will extend my unemployment gap so I have to explain it for the next ten years and also leave me in a situation with no income and a loss of housing.

        I’m still sending out other applications and I have other interviews next week. They aren’t for jobs I’m even interested in but they fit my current life and pay close to what I’m currently making so not a huge financial impact.

        My stress is multiplied because I’m a single parent to a 4yr old, disabled child whose is also medically vulnerable and we’re on that knife’s edge of being one medical bill away from complete financial ruin…and there’s Covid.

      2. SnappinTerrapin*

        If your previous background check was done by the same vendor that is doing the current one, maybe it would help if your recruiter asked them to look in their file cabinet for the prior investigation report. That’s a pretty standard investigative technique that occasionally gets overlooked.

  11. The Assistant*

    The New York Times ran an article this week titled, “Part-Time Work During a Labor Shortage: A Tight Job Market is Unlikely to Reverse Inequality.”

    Here is a quote from the article:

    “How could this be when the country is in the midst of a labor shortage in which employers are struggling to fill jobs? Because executives at many companies have decided that part-time work is too important to abandon just because the labor market is temporarily tight.”

    I guess my question to the commetariat here, is this market temporarily tight? As hiring managers and leaders of businesses, are employers just waiting this temporary situation out? And how do you *know* it’s temporary?

    I’m a job seeker at the moment and will likely have employment soon but I was so hoping for long-term change in the job market. Curious what others think. I will try to reply as I have time for today but please know I’m avidly reading any comments and appreciate them.

    1. Cold Fish*

      I think companies will always have the advantage that people need jobs. The longer they can go claiming “temporarily tight job market” the better off they will be. As much as I would like it otherwise, without serious work/regulations/laws we are not going to see long-term change.

      1. The Assistant*

        You may be right. It also might be something better assessed in hindsight.

        I wish there was more we could do now to see long-term change, but I know that so many are just literally trying to survive right now about Covid, so forming unions isn’t necessarily high on the list.

        But I hope employees make whatever changes they can for themselves individually during this time. I know I will!

    2. Spearmint*

      No one really knows for sure if this job market is a turning point or a temporary blip. For now, many employers can resist structural changes if they assume it’s a temporary blip, but if this job market continues to be tight for years, then employers will have to change to remain competitive.

      The factors that will determine if the market remains tight are myriad and unpredictable, from macroeconomic policy to whether there’s a new covid variant. I hope it remains tight and forces employers or change, but I wouldn’t assume it will happen when make life decisions right now.

      1. The Assistant*

        Thanks, Spearmint! (I love spearmint tea.)

        I agree we have to make what decisions we can with what we know right now. I too hope it remains tight (or gets tighter) but also realize it’s not just that that forces change.

        As an employee when I started fresh out of school, I didn’t know what a tight economy was or when it was happening or anything. And I’ve seen many ‘looser’ (if that’s a thing) economies before and learned what to do in those moments.

        Each moment is different. I will admit right now I feel ever so less desperate. (Might be my own maturity or the economy, I don’t know.) It’s subtle shift but I like it and aim to keep that feeling going no matter how the economy changes.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      Historically the labor market goes through several significant cycles where it is tight and when it is not. There are not indicators that this current situation will not eventually normalize. But when, no one knows. The reality part time roles have a place in economy in both instances. Having such positions actually broadens opportunities to candidates that otherwise would not be willing/able to work a fulltime job.

      1. The Assistant*

        Thanks for popping in! I appreciate it.

        There are no indicators that this is the new normal, no. But again, we honestly don’t know how long this will last as you say.

        I wasn’t thinking about part-time roles specifically even though the article was about that. I was just struck by the word temporary used in the article as if that was already a fact. I know part-time roles and workers have a place, but I am just thinking of how any workers can use this time, temporary or not, to their advantage.

        It feels like a game of chicken. Everyone is just waiting and seeing. Who can wait the longest? A simplistic view, I know, but I’m not an economist. Just getting better at observing. And making any moves I make with the best information I have.

    4. Double A*

      It sure seems to me that many of the factors that are causing a tight labor market aren’t going to change anytime soon. One, 800,000+ people have died. 200,000 of them under 65. So, to be completely heartless about it, those people will no longer be working. I doubt immigration is going to open up much, which is a major source of underpaid labor. The child care situation isn’t going to be addressed so (largely) women’s labor will remain constricted. The birth rate is down. So where will all these extra workers come from?

      Sadly the most likely thing is that business will lobby the government to make life more painful for the lowest economic rungs of society, increasing their desperation so employers will once again have the upper hand.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        There’s also been a harder-to-pin-down psychological shift where people in the US aren’t even paying lip service to the American Dream any more. Expectations have changed from “I’m going to be better off than my parents” to “I hope I have health insurance one day”. Workers are expected to job-hop for a better wage instead of getting a raise where they work. I’ve heard advice-givers actively discouraging young people from going to college.

        Also, a brush with mortality can make people reevaluate their priorities, and I think we’re experiencing that as a country. What’s the point of making enough money to vacation if you can’t travel due to COVID restrictions? What’s the point of saving for retirement if your job is suddenly so dangerous you don’t think you’ll make it? What is the bare minimum amount of money we need to pay rent and have health insurance, and what’s the bare minimum amount of time we can put into earning that money?

        I think you’re right that the government will try to make life more painful for non-workers, but I’m hoping that as millennials get old enough to hold political office, we’re going to see a big priority shift towards college debt relief, childcare support and higher minimum wages.

        1. Double A*

          As an elder millennial, I very much hope this is true. I absolutely feel that my cohort is primed to tell work to sit down and take it’s rightful place in our lives. I do think our attitudes about this are shifting permanently. We millennials didn’t really buy into a lot of the Boomer ethos about work after we graduated into the great recession.

      2. Violet*

        Wow, that makes me so sad. That we have lost so many, many lives.

        The government will do what it does. I wonder what will ‘we’ do. Or more specifically, what will *I* do differently?

        I know my worth and also what’s important, especially once you see how quickly people move on when you leave a job. As they should. And as I will remember what is really important in my life. The older I get the more precious life is to me.

        1. The Assistant*

          I am going to use this time to my advantage as best I can.

          I thought once I’d help start a union or something but honestly, coworkers I knew and trusted for years simply weren’t interested.

          So yes, live your life thoroughly someone said below that those at the top are. Best you can. So many lives lost, I feel that is some of the best advice.

        1. Starbuck*

          Get active, if you can. Local and state organizing can make a meaningful difference in people’s lives. I’ve got online friends spread across the country and we compare notes. My state, for example, has done helpful things like doing away with the ‘tipped’ minimum wage and has yearly plans to raise the minimum salary threshold for overtime exemption continuing over the next several years.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’m late to the party and no one may see this. It likely IS a turning point, and employers will probably change especially if conditions remain tight, but probably not in the way that workers want. This is usually where businesses “innovate” new ways of being a**holes instead of simply giving employees what they’re looking for.

      We’ll probably see more tech automation and more part-time, contract, or gig work. My own department, which has lost 2 full-time people in the last year, has just brought on 3 freelancers to “replace” them with plans on keeping that the new way going forward — now we don’t need to provide them with benefits or equipment or worry about paid leave or… as long as they toe the line on not treating them like employees (or humans), this is the “new normal.”

      1. Kay*

        I sadly have to agree with this. I have a number of clients all with positions that need filled, yet none of them want to pay decent wages, offer decent benefits or even offer great working environments imo. Right now, since the margins are looking great with the reduced payroll, those at the top are thoroughly enjoying their profit sharing & bonuses – while everyone else is dealing with battles over raises, lack of covid protocols and unreal hours.

        1. The Assistant*

          Thanks for sharing this inside view.

          But are those at the top untouchable? And if they are, well, then what is really different right now tight economy or not?

          Well, it is different for those not at the top. But that’s where the power is and it’s so hard to shift that.

          Hmm. Thanks for your comment. Gives me food for thought.

      2. The Assistant*

        Party is on all weekend!

        “This is usually where businesses “innovate” new ways of being a**holes instead of simply giving employees what they’re looking for.”

        This made me laugh! They probably will!

    7. Starbuck*

      Where I work, we were planning on hiring for a half-time role but the position was bumped up to full time with benefits before it got posted. As far as I know it was done for a few reasons – equity (my field as a whole needs to be paying more so that it’s not just already wealthy/privileged people that can afford to work here) and because we’re in an area with a very tight housing and labor market, and there’s no way the position would have been competitive as a part-time no-benefits offering.

  12. Monty*

    (how) should I follow up?

    I interviewed for an entry-level admin position in October. I didn’t get the position, but the hiring manager gave me GLOWING feedback and strongly encouraged me to apply for a higher-level position opening up within his department.

    The position was posted in early January, and he emailed me to ask me again to apply. I applied through the HR website, let him know, and…silence. The position was reposted about about a week ago. What does this mean! I don’t want to seem presumptuous, but is it appropriate to ask about their timeline? Any suggested language?

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      It could mean a lot of things, including they didn’t get the minimum required number of applicants in the pool, so they have to keep it open until they hit that number. I would say hold tight and don’t reach out to the hiring manager again. At my workplace, hiring managers aren’t supposed to be in direct contact with candidates anyway, so his wrist might have been slapped for sending you that first email.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I think it would be worth touching base with the hiring manager at this point and asking about the timeline, yes. I would probably start with “At your recommendation, I applied for the Teapot Painter position in your department in early January. I haven’t heard back yet, but I noticed the position was reposted last week. I wanted to check in and see if I am under consideration for the position, and if so, what the expected timeline is for the hiring process. Thank you for any information you can provide.” It’s possible they want to have X number of candidates to bring in for interviews, and the first posting didn’t get enough, so they’re waiting to contact people until they do have enough. Or it’s possible that you aren’t under consideration, but they haven’t let you know. Hopefully the hiring manager will be courteous enough to let you know either way!

    3. 867-5309*

      When did you apply and let him know? If it’s been less than two weeks, I would wait until week or two.

      You could send one email, “Hi Jim, I am still excited about the role of so let me know if there is any more information I can provide as you look at candidates, or if you had a timeline for when you will begin interviews?

    4. Hiring Mgr*

      If you haven’t heard from anyone in nearly a month and the hiring manager was the one who encouraged you, absolutely contact them to check in!

    5. OtterB*

      Another possibility is that there was an automatic renewal on posting the position until it was actually filled, and they’re still working through the process. But I think a polite email to the hiring manager asking about their timeline wouldn’t hurt.

  13. W*

    Any thoughts on changing careers? Especially for those who’ve done it later in life? How did you manage the paycuts when you change careers?

    I’m taking a course to try to change my career. My current career doesn’t have good future prospects and I’m taking a course in one that does have a lot of growth. I’m making $55k at my job as a midrange experienced employee. (The higher range tops out at $70k hence why I want to change careers, not to mention layoffs and job cuts.) However, because I don’t have direct experience in the new career, I would have to take a junior role. But I don’t want to take a junior role with substantially less money. I’m in my 30s, so not old but I spent all my 20s trying to make more than $30k and don’t want to go back to making less, especially when I have financial goals (buying a home) to consider. As for the new career, it’s not completely unrelated, every company will need to deal with this so it’s in demand, so I’m not switching completely different industries.

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Without knowing the specifics of the two fields, as a hiring manager, I would be comfortable recommending that a new employee in a junior role come in at a higher point in the posted range if they have general workplace experience and have convinced me in the hiring process that they will hit the ground running. (The course you’re taking probably helps in that regard.)

      1. W*

        Thanks for this. This is comforting to hear. Even if I get a higher point in the range, the range would still be lower than what I’m making, so I’d probably just put up with it for a year or so and look for higher.

        As the hiring manager, surely they must realize that a seasoned employee with work experience won’t be staying in the junior role for long once they have some experience in that role. I’m wondering if there would be some sort of “you just wasted all my of efforts training you.”

      2. Anhaga*

        I did this as the employee–my now-employer looked at my resume, realized that my past experience would help him expand a side of his business that he hadn’t focused on yet, and met my salary requirement even though it was a solid 30% over what he was planning to pay for the position. So do think, in your cover letters, about how your past experience would let you bring something unique and different to the position; that can go far to helping you make the case for the higher starting salary.

    3. TGI(February)*

      I don’t know if this helps, but is there any “bridge” type role between what you do now, and what you want to do? I agree that in my mid thirties I would not have been willing to start over in a junior role. But you can sometimes achieve similar ends in two or three lateral moves. For example, you’re an editor now and you want to be a llama trainer. Maybe it’s like, you become the editor of a llama blog, then you manage a llama department, then you become llama trainer. It won’t work if you’re set on a field like nursing or teaching with a very specific non-negotiable credential process but there may be a medical-adjacent type job that will suit you just as well without having to have that specific degree and license.

      1. J.B.*

        That is what I’d recommend. I went back to grad school at 39 and couldn’t get responses to junior roles (partly because I didn’t want to low-ball the salary number. I get not making quite what I made before but when you can only put one number in an application tracking system it will be on the high side.) I made a lateral ish move and am training myself in new skills as I go.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t be afraid to use your insight to explain to employers why you’d make a good employee. Draw those parallels for them.
      At one job a potential boss was concerned about me handling X. So I simply said, “Oh X sounds like it could parallel Y, which I HAVE done. Here is how I approached Y.” I used to shy away from stuff like this because it felt condescending as it was so obvious. The boss-interviewer raised their eyebrows, “ohhh, never thought of that!” Remember what is obvious to you is not obvious to everyone else.

    5. Jack Straw from Wichita*

      I know this is probably unhelpful, but I just took the pay cut. It was 21% and it hurt because I was a single parent at the time, but in the end it was worth it.

      It also depends on whether, as someone else mentions, you are going into a field with rigid pay structures. I was becoming a teacher at 35 with some grad school licensure classes but no licensed teaching experience, so I was making just slightly more than someone who would be 22 out of their undergrad. For something like that, there is no way around it.

    6. beach read*

      I left my job in the financial services industry after 20+ years to work in a different capacity within the financial industry. Although much of my skillset was transferrable, I didn’t have experience in the new position so I was sort of ‘starting over’ with a lower paycheck. I thought it might take me a few years to move ahead. It actually took about 5 years to get to where I am now which is a better job and higher pay than I was earning at my original job. I was fortunate that I had savings to make up the difference while I worked my way back up. Financially it was tough for a while, but I was much happier in my new position. I would not change what I did.

  14. ETW*

    I have recently started a new job for a team that is building up speed so I spend a lot of time engaged to wait and then it is time to jump when something does come up. I have done a bunch of online trainings for anything my department remotely touches, organized old computer files, created some forms for use by people to help with work flow, but what else can I be doing while I am waiting for new work. I have asked around to colleagues and offered help but we have some larger territorial stuff so helping outside of my department is tricky. We don’t have the culture where you can blatantly be reading the news or surfing the web though short bursts can be ok. Some days I am trying to fill hours, but thankfully other weeks I am busy all week with actual work.

    1. AdequateArchaeologist*

      My last job was similar. I had two blocks of time that were ultra busy and the work had to be done ASAP, but in between I was “on call” and bored out of my mind. Something occasionally popped up, but not more than 20-45 minutes worth. There was no additional work to take on and it was going into slow season. Random higher-ups would periodically walk around in the area behind me so I felt like I couldn’t do anything too obvious.

      I basically had two windows open, one work related (usually a spreadsheet or parts list) and would click around every few minutes. The other was AAM, zoomed in enough that the ads and the banner at the top didn’t really show (so it looked like just a text heavy window/document). I also read a lot of articles and whatnot concerning archaeology (I was an admin assistant at the time) using the same method.

      I later did WFH and used the spare time to clean house. Not something I’m super proud of, but I finally was able to deep clean my washing machine…

      1. ETW*

        WFH can have so many advantages for these times but the zoomed text isn’t a bad idea. I am still new enough I am not sure if anyone looks at your internet usage. (We have a few old school folks who I wouldn’t put it past to manage that way. They have announced retirement plans so the culture is shifting which is why I was willing to join.)

    2. Katie*

      Does your work have groups that you can join? Like a volunteer group or a planning committee? My work has many and the level of participation is up to each person and their availability. That also shows your face to the rest of the organization.

      1. ETW*

        I wish. We have two people who are just in charge of that stuff and they never want help even when they clearly could use it. (If stuff is falling down while you are trying to hang something just take the help!)

    3. Rational Lemming*

      What about a Coursera or Khan Academy class that could be at least loosely related to your job? I believe both are work at your own pace courses. Coursera makes it look like you have to pay, and you do if you want a certificate of completion, but there is a way to take the class for free.

    4. SofiaDeo*

      I recommend the “take a course” idea. Many orgs have IT monitor websites that employees use, and while AAM is not social media or goof off stuff, IMO using that time to take a class indicates to at least some managers that you are “more serious” about work, and definitely not goofing off.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Join user forums for your primary software–I did downtime research into industry best practices and answered questions about tricks I knew and shared tricks I hadn’t known with co-workers…and ended up the department software expert.

  15. litprof*

    Any advice about how to introduce a new significant other to one’s colleagues? I realize this is a super low-stakes, non-problem to have, yet somehow I feel stumped. I work in a small office at a university. My colleagues and I have warm, collegial relationships. Occasionally we’ll do social things together outside of work, and we know or at least know of each others’ partners, children, etc. But I’ve been single for the entire time I’ve worked in this office, so it feels really weird to me to bring up dating and new relationships when I’ve never talked about it with my colleagues before. Maybe the issue is all in my head: I think I feel a bit “behind” since I am in my late 30s, when it seems normal talk about children and spouses, but unusual to introduce a new partner or tell colleagues you’re dating. This is all complicated by the fact that we are all still working remotely, and rarely have casual conversations anymore as we would if we were running into each other in the hallways at work. Do I make an announcement? Save it until the weather warms up and we do something social outdoors together? Casually drop it into a conversation to my closest colleagues and let it spread from there? I’m excited to share this positive development in my life, but uncertain about how to do it!

    1. frog*

      Do you have a charming or funny story about your new partner/adventures with them/etc to share? That might be a good way to sidestep into it.

    2. CTT*

      I think making an announcement could be awkward (if I were your colleague, I wouldn’t totally know how to respond); I think you can either wait for a social event or mention it if it naturally comes up – like if you’re talking about weekend plans, it’s normal to say “[partner] and I are trying takeout from that new restaurant that just opened” or something like that.

      Congrats on the new SO!

      1. Raboot*

        This is how I’ve learned of the existence of most of my coworkers’ SOs. The last one that did this, we’d been working together for a year and been work friends for longer – I still don’t know if the partner was new or if the sharing was new and it didn’t bother me at all. So I say this is the way to go, just mention them casually.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Hello from a fellow late-30s who has been chronically single until recently! I found casually dropping it into conversations was the easiest route for me to go. “What did you do this weekend?” “Oh my partner and I went to a great new restaurant in town.” Some people didn’t catch on (or didn’t care) and some people were very excited (“Oh I didn’t realize you were seeing someone! Tell me more.”) But dropping my partner’s title and/or name casually into the conversation worked well for me.

    4. Artemesia*

      This is not something you ‘announce’ or make a fuss about. Lots of people go a long time without mentioning or introducing a partner. If it is important to you that they know you have a partner and you won’t be having any office social events anytime soon (when his presence would be the announcement) then just let it drop in water cooler chat talk about what you did Sat night. As in ‘We saw a great movie Sat night; have you seen Belfast yet?’ And if they ask who ‘We’ is you can mention him. Or ‘Jack and I went cross country skiing this weekend; it was so fun.’

      2. Starbuck*

        Same, I’m in the boat of ‘they don’t need to know so why bother.’ Maybe once it’s at the point where you’d take a sick day if they needed your help. Otherwise I have no desire to share things but don’t mind giving a simple answer if I’m asked directly. But I’m super in the camp of, not talking about my personal life at work unless it’s somehow actually relevant.

    5. HESM pro*

      As a perpetually single mid-30s professional also in a university setting, I completely understand how you feel! While I haven’t introduced a significant other of my own to my coworkers, two of my colleagues have. The first just started slipping his existence into conversation with all of us saying “oh yeah this guy I’ve been seeing…” but the second was a little more hesitant, I think because they were trying to figure out how serious it was. He ended up mentioning small tidbits that let me know there might be a new person in his life and then at an after-work social event one of his friends asked if he was still dating the person and he side-eyed me before responding yes. I was the only one who knew for a long time, but when my other coworkers were planning a pot luck I casually mentioned to them that they might want to make it clear if significant others or friends were invited and they did which allowed him to introduce her more broadly! So I think it could really go either way – don’t act like it’s a big deal and just start mentioning the person, or choose someone closer to you that you trust and mention it to them. I knew he wouldn’t get mad if I mentioned it to others, but I didn’t want to steal his thunder, so I just greased those wheels to let it happen “naturally.”

    6. Wordybird*

      I was single for the first year of my current job, and this was just assumed when everyone else was talking about their partners and I was not. Most of my coworkers are childfree (I am not) and many are not partnered so there’s a mix of all sorts of lifestyles and situations at my workplace. I was so excited to talk about my partner when we did start dating this past fall that it just came up in conversation naturally when my coworkers were talking about their families and one time when we were discussing a location that a colleague had visited that my partner used to work at. He’s my favorite person ever so it’s hard to NOT talk about him all the time. :)

      People will figure out who your partner is from conversational context. It’s all good, and congrats!

    7. RagingADHD*

      Casually drop a reference to something you and the SO did that you’d normally chit chat about with your colleagues, like a weekend outing or a movie you saw.

      If they want to know more, they’ll say, “Hey, I didn’t know you were seeing someone! Cool!”

      That’s all it takes.

    8. litprof*

      Thanks to all of you for the advice! I feel much less awkward about it after reading about your experiences.

  16. Crazy Plant Lady*

    I’m getting married later this year and am planning on changing my last name. I want to keep using my maiden name professionally since I’m somewhat recognized within my field. At my current job, this shouldn’t be an issue – I can let them know about my legal name change but that I’d like everything else (email, etc.) to keep using my maiden name. I’m more concerned if I switch jobs that there will be another company in the future that is stricter/more rigid about only allowing employees to use their legal names or something.

    Has anyone encountered any issues like this? Or have experiences (good or bad) with using a different name than your legal name professionally?

    1. WFH is all I Want*

      In my experience, the employers have asked for my preferred name and I list first name, maiden name. It hasn’t been an issue. In one instance, I was listed in the outlook address book as “first name, maiden name (married name)” just so everyone could locate me since payroll and HR documents needed my legal name.

    2. lost academic*

      Yup. Have had no issues. Just tell them what name you want to use when you start new places and they will not care. It helps, I have found, if your maiden name is still part of your legal name. Everyone knows me by my maiden name, it’s where my (mostly irrelevant) publications are, and quite frankly it’s my professional identity and I am not willing to cede it. Now if I did… well, I don’t think anyone would care, or pay attention after a month, it’s so common for women. The only people who use my married name are my husband and anyone associated with the kids I now have.

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      I work for a state government, & some women have had a problem with this. The reason is given as “transparency,” but if nobody knows you by your legal name, it seems to have the opposite affect. Our solution is to include the preferred name in parentheses in email addresses & other electronic communication.

      I disagree with the policy, as it doesn’t do what it’s purported to do & it adds an additional burden on women & transgender people who might have to explain why their email & their name don’t match.

      1. bleh*

        Ugh, can we please change the moniker to unmarried name or family of origin surname or something else. Does anyone actually know a different way? Maiden literally refers to whether or not you have had sex, and it is not how women should have to talk about names. It feels outdated and creepy.

        1. Siege*

          It has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with age and whether a woman is unmarried. Literally, the dictionary definition is “a girl or young woman, especially an unmarried one”. “Mrs” doesn’t mean “f***s like a bunny”, it means (functionally) “married”.

          1. sheesh*

            From Merriam Webster:
            “maiden adjective
            Definition of maiden (Entry 2 of 2)
            1a(1) : not married
            a maiden aunt
            (2) : VIRGIN”

            Words and their origins matter.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              Basically, a maid is unmarried & a matron is unmarried. Hence, a maid or matron of honor.

              In the old days, the assumption was that an unmarried woman was also virginal. (Sometimes true, sometimes a polite fiction.)

              *Maiden” is just a diminutive of “maid,” which originally meant “girl” or “young unmarried woman.” But now has a different meaning, except in some old terms & phrases.

              1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

                Matron is a married woman, unless you’re referring to a prison position or a female janitor.

        2. Jack Straw from Wichita*

          Yeah, it’s not that. Do a search for the podcast Unladylike and “Episode 70: How to Marry Off Maiden Names” for a great listed on the history of the maiden name.

        3. Charlotte Lucas*

          I just had to reread my comment to see if I slipped up, as I prefer “birth” or “original” name.

    4. AdequateArchaeologist*

      I have something similar, but in reverse? My last name is socially Folgers-Coffee. I married and hyphenated because like you my (tiny) amount of public work has my maiden name “Folgers” (and I’m emotionally attached to my maiden name). I do job applications and give people my married name, even put down my married name on packages etc. But during onboarding I let HR know that my name is still legally “Folgers”.

      I’m technically in the process of changing it, but it’s super low on my list of priorities and this is the third job I’ve had a separate legal vs social name. No one has ever given me issues though. The most I’ve ever gotten is a weirdly handled email address (bcoffee@caffiene.com instead of bfolgers-coffee@caffiene.com) but I’ve found most email addresses are weird when you hyphenate.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        YES, Jiminy Christmas. Being (legally) Valentina Solomon-Kenmore, I really wanted our IT folks to make my login/email address vsk@(work). I expected them to make it either vsolomon or vsolomonkenmore, depending on the character limits. What I actually ended up with is vsolomonken, which is just silly. :P

    5. Dark Macadamia*

      I once had a job where they put my name incorrectly on… tax forms? paperwork? I don’t remember but they hyphenated my middle and last name as a last name despite all the original forms being done correctly by me and always being called Mrs. Macadamia. When I first tried to correct them they told me they couldn’t change it because the thing had to have my full correct name and I was like “yes, that’s why you need to change it” lol. They did fix it after that.

    6. Purple Cat*

      My company requires legal names to be used for setup. It is VERY confusing when people go by middle names or completely different names. Then they have email signatures that reference their preferred names and it’s difficult to find them in directories, etc.

      A different option would be to use your married name socially and not change it legally, that way legal and professional names match.

      1. lost academic*

        I did this for awhile but if you have or plan to have kids, it is still a world where when your last names do not match you can run into a lot of additional hassle and actual trouble (especially during travel). It only takes one officious ignorant person to derail your plans because they’re being a PITA with travel.

        1. No Tribble At All*

          FWIW, my mom never changed her last name, and the only issue we’ve ever had was when I was first applying for my learner’s permit. The clerk at the DMV asked for my birth certificate to verify it had her name on it, since my last name (my dad’s) is different from hers. Since it’s the first official form of government ID, I guess they were being paranoid.

          I’ve never traveled internationally with her without a passport of my own (not as a baby or anything).

          Of reasons to change your name, don’t let “some bureaucracy may require slightly more forms” be the biggest reason!

          1. Anony*

            Strongly agree with this, as a woman who did not change her name, and we can all help by normalizing parents not sharing a last name with their children.

        2. Purple Cat*

          Full disclosure: I took my husband’s name.
          I don’t want to discount that there *might* be in some cases an issue with parents and children’s names not matching, that is definitely fading. Between blended families, more diverse backgrounds where women don’t take their husband’s names, same-gender couples, etc… this isn’t as much of an issue as it used to be.

        3. NancyDrew*

          I promise you, in my 10 years of being a parent, I’ve never had a problem with my kids and I having not-matching last names.

          1. Clisby*

            Same here, after 25 years of parenthood (2 children). To be sure, I occasionally had a child’s friend/classmate call me “Mrs. HusbandsLastName”, just assuming I had the same last name as my child, but that didn’t bother me.

            I never had the slightest desire to change my name, but if I had, it would have been just socially. I would not have even considered changing it legally.

    7. Velociraptor Attack*

      I worked somewhere that had very strict requirements on using your legal name. I got married a week before I started and since everything hadn’t gone through legally yet I had to start as firstname.maidenname as my email and then 3 months later it got to change to firstname.marriedname.

      I signed everything as Firstname Maidenname Marriedname and still do.

    8. Anony*

      One of my colleagues legally changed her middle name to her unmarried name when she took her husband’s last name, and she uses both in her professional life, e.g. “Maria Gonzalez Hernandez”, where Gonzalez is her unmarried name and Hernandez is her married name. It seems to have worked for her, but she is also OK with being called either Maria Gonzalez or Maria Hernandez by new people who meet her.

      1. Joielle*

        I did this! Not the exact same situation – I use only my married name in my professional life (we married pretty young), but I use both socially. I will say that my close friends understand what my name is, but pretty much everyone else hyphenates my middle and last into one last name even though that’s wrong and I never write it that way myself. It doesn’t really bother me since it only shows up on, like, wedding invitations – so nothing where it’s crucial that my name is punctuated correctly. But it might be a bigger issue at work, idk. Just have to be a bit patient with people and have it corrected when it’s necessary.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I did this and the next company to hire me put all 3 on my email with hyphen even though I was not hyphenated. It got even longer because the company domain name was merger-hyphenation hell itself. I was so glad when we got bought out so I could have a work email that didn’t exceed some character counts!

    9. Jack Straw from Wichita*

      You’re doing it backwards. ;) If you want to go by your maiden name professionally (aka at work and possibly publishing and schooling with all the legal documents that go with them) you shouldn’t change your name legally. wat you want to do it to change it socially.

      i.e. Your legal name is your given name — Jacquelyn Straw but you go by Jacquelyn Straw-Smith or Jacquelyn Smith with friends, family, on social media, etc.

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        That’s kind of how I do it. I changed to my husband’s last name when we married because mine always got mispronounced, and I used that at work. The only time I wish I hadn’t was when some rather strange person kept calling me at work from another country to cheerfully argue that I was an ethnicity I most definitely wasn’t – nor was my husband! But when I got an article published, I used both last names because it was MINE, plus if anyone I knew from my single life stumbled across it, I wanted them to know it was me. It’s the same reason I use both on social media, to make it easier to reconnect with people from my past.

      2. Pennyworth*

        That’s what I did – when I married many people just assumed I would take my husbands name, and started using it. He liked it that way too, so during our marriage I was socially Pennyworth Husbandname but legally Pennyworth Birthname. It made everything very easy when we divorced. I still use Husbandname a bit when I think there is a potential for identity theft.

        I once worked with a woman who used completely different first and second names professionally and socially. Think Mary Smith at work and Elizabeth Jones socially. We only found out when her mother rang her work phone and asked for Elizabeth Jones and was told no-one with that name worked there.

  17. Mbarr*

    Any advice about how/if I could handle this situation better in the future?

    After I left my old team (I did an internal transfer), my colleague Jane (she’s was a peer, not my manager) asked if I could sit in on interviews (for a different position, not to backfill my own). I helped and we hired Fergus. (He had work experience in India, and just finished his Masters in the US. He was also a classmate of one of the people on the team.)

    A month later, Jane reached out and asked if I could help coach Fergus. He was making some careless mistakes on reports, and Jane thought he might be more comfortable having someone, not his boss, help him out. Fergus and I met several times and I tried to impart tips and tricks to help him. I talked to Jane again, and she said Fergus was doing better.

    Fast forward 6 months later, and while Jane and I were having a social chit chat, she acknowledged that Fergus will never be a super star on the team. He’s mediocre, and continues to make mistakes.

    Now, here’s where it gets fun… Yesterday Fergus called me out of the blue and asked for a confidential chat. He wanted to know about my experience on the team, and why I left. He’s frustrated cause he feels that Jane is constantly criticizing him. He knows he’s making mistakes, but has taken steps to try to fix things, and doesn’t know how to navigate his 1:1s anymore.

    The thing is, Jane’s a superstar. I personally wouldn’t want to report to her. She’s a lovely person, and was good as a coworker. But she’s also one of those people who have a crazy eye for detail and will remember that in the Llama report, column X had this random number, but now, months later it has a different number, and why don’t you know why it’s different? Why didn’t you catch it? Why can’t you answer me right now?

    Long story short, I told Fergus how to search for internal job postings. I also told him to ask Jane what more he can do. Fergus says that if he sticks around for another 6 months, he knows the type of work he has would change, and would probably be better… But he’s miserable now.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Do you have any feel for how much of this is Jane’s “eye for detail” and how much is the fact that Fergus is still making mistakes? Both of these things could be problems or not: Is Jane nitpicky or is being detail-oriented an asset in this job? Is Fergus being micromanaged or does he legitimately need to make fewer mistakes but isn’t achieving that?

      Changing departments/teams might help if Fergus’ level of performance is actually acceptable but Jane can’t back off, but it won’t if Fergus really is lackluster and Jane’s frustration is at least somewhat justified.

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Well, I think you know the answer here. You should have stayed out of it, especially the coaching. That was Jane’s business and literally not your job. At this point, you should tell both Jane and Fergus whenever either reaches out next, that you have realized it’s better for them to communicate directly and not through you.

      1. MsM*

        Ooh, I disagree. I think whether Jane intended it or not, you’ve been an excellent mentor to Fergus, OP. You don’t have to continue doing so if you don’t want to, but I don’t think you’ve done anything wrong here.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      Honestly, it sounds like Jane might not be a great manager. Demanding attention to detail in your employees is fine, but it sounds like she is providing feedback in a way that’s really scoldy and doesn’t help her employees improve. But it’s hard to tell your peers that they aren’t managing their employees well.

      1. Invisible Fish*

        I actually came to say something similar- I’m a “Jane” in my own way, and if I’m in charge of something, I know to get my expectations under control.

      2. JelloStapler*

        I had a former colleague like this – and it was often an issue of not seeing there was more than one way to do things and would get hung up on details- those she supervised would mention it to me (who at the time supervised other teammates) and ask for advice. I was close to said person and tried to encourage her to loosen up, and eventually, she had an epiphany and realized how she was coming off- with mixed results on actually changing. We ended up doing some re-organizing anyway and then a year later she ended up leaving for another position/career change. I just think she works better as an individual contributor.

    4. 867-5309*

      This is not advice per se but rather something a manager once told me that stuck and is important for the Janes of the world as they begin to manage – whether projects or people: “The star pitcher usually makes a terrible coach because they don’t know how to coach third string or bench warmers.” He then reminded me that is my job as a manager, not to prop up someone who truly cannot do the job, but to coach and mentor others and to also remember, that many roads lead to Rome and there way might be a hair longer or a little different but if it helps them learn, I have to lean back and let them go.

  18. SurlyGirl*

    What are some good interview questions to suss out whether or not someone is a pleasant person to work with? In my experience, 90% of people bring their best selves to the interview, but I’d like to know what they’re like on a day to day basis. Of course we check references and such, but look for a good way to assess this before getting too far into the process.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      Perhaps ask them how they have handled difficult situations with a colleague or a challenging process working collaboratively? That might give you a sense of whether or not they are quick to blame others, have decent emotional intelligence and self-awareness, patience, etc.

      1. irene adler*

        Might ask about how they handle disagreements with co-workers.

        A long time ago, when I was about to graduate from school, a job interviewer asked me, “What would you do if a co-worker swiped some of your lab equipment-without asking?”

        After I responded, she asked, “After you spoke with the person who swiped your lab equipment and asked them to ask first, what would you do if this person did it again-and left the equipment dirty?” I responded.

        And then she asked me a third time what I would do if this person had taken my lab equipment- a third time-without permission or any apology.

        Only thing I recall is thinking that in the professional environment, I’d have to keep my cool and not go off on this person. Maybe even find them their own equipment -you know, solve the problem. Not sure if they wanted the response to include informing the boss or what.

        I still wonder what the correct responses would be (if any). But I bet the interviewer learned a lot about the personality of the candidate asking this question- multiple times- as she did.

          1. irene adler*

            Reflecting on this, I think they may want to see if someone would resort to ‘revenge’ tactics- sabotaging the other person’s equipment, or bad mouthing them or even attacking them physically.
            These things do happen in a lab environment. Not often. But I’ve witnessed some things.

        2. Chauncy Gardener*

          This is a great technique. Has anyone read “Who?” It’s an awesome book on hiring and they recommend digging like this in an interview. People will tell you who they are!

    2. Ashley*

      Have they been pleasant with everyone in scheduling interviews, getting references, etc? Are they nice to the person at the front desk? To me it is less about questions and more about actions.
      I am guessing you are coming off working with grumps and unpleasant people and sometimes we over correct after that, but what skills / attitude do they need to do the job. If this is a culture fit where everyone says good morning, and the last person didn’t I would be upfront about the culture so they can help screen themselves out if they are just not the chit chatty type. (Or maybe you last hire was working for the company where you can’t make jokes and needed to go back to that office.)

      1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

        Co-sign! If they are polite to the receptionist, that tells you everything (almost).

          1. Ashley*

            I hate ‘tests’ but maybe since it is virtual, have someone else start the second interview before you join about 10 minutes later and see how they respond. Plus the second person may see something you don’t so that is not always bad in and of itself.

      2. Artemesia*

        We always asked the AA about their interaction with her. Were they polite and friendly to her when they arrived; were they difficult in setting up the interviews etc. Of course you have to have a mature AA you have confidence in but it is surprising how many people are rude to the admin. And the AA fields the whiny calls from people demanding interviews and repeatedly ‘checking in.’

    3. Golden*

      Last year when I was job searching I got asked “tell me about a time when you were not a good coworker”.

      I wasn’t ready for something like that, but looking back it made me have to discuss a lot of the attributes that College Career Counselor described.

    4. anonymous73*

      In addition to what others have said, don’t make the interview “all business”. Not saying you have to have a 10 minute conversation about hobbies or anything, but generally if the interviewers are relaxed, and provide more personal commentary here and there, you get to know their personality better. With my current job, my manager and I were on the call for about 5 minutes before the other person joined and I felt an instant connection with her. We didn’t really talk about much of substance, but she made me feel at ease and it allowed me to show her my true personality.

      1. Joielle*

        I second this! I really just go on gut feeling for whether someone would be a good coworker, but I feel like you can get a much better sense from informal conversation. Do they seem genuine, engaging, personable? Do they seem… nice?

        I’m certainly willing to hire people who are really nervous or just awkward (I mean, same here), but what I avoid at all costs is someone who seems smarmy or condescending. I’ve always had fairly informal workplaces without a strong hierarchy, and someone who has a big ego or is too “sales-y” in the interview is just not going to be pleasant to work with. You get a feel for it after conducting a lot of interviews.

    5. Eether, Either*

      As my department’s admin, I always meet with our candidates. My conversation with them is very casual–I do not interview them about their qualifications–that’s for my bosses to do. Instead, I just “pop” into the conference room for a “casual” chat, in between interviews. They are more relaxed and usually let their guard down–and if they do not, that is also something I make note of. I have a very good instinct about people that I trust absolutely. I am also included in the final decision and encouraged to voice my opinion. I read somewhere that if you really want to find out what the candidate is like, ask your receptionist. Some people think the receptionist (or admin in my case) is No One Important, which gives them license speak more freely. I’ve heard some really strange and inappropriate things.

      1. Shirley Keeldar*

        Oh, come on, don’t leave it there…please tell us some of the strange and inappropriate things? We need diversion.

    6. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      I keep thinking of Ben Stiller’s character on a Friends episode. Bring a duck and leave the room for a few minutes! : )

  19. Spotted Elephant*

    How do I function when I’m actually afraid of my boss?

    I’ll preface this by saying that of the three positions at the top of my department two are vacant. The remaining one (my manager) is super stressed as are the other managers and myself (not a manager, but one of a few “Team leadish” positions.) Hiring is underway and my manager’s boss is aware of my department’s ongoing issues, and will be mediating a talk for a few of us next week. (I’ve also applied to an external position to explore my options.)

    We’re thankfully remote so this is all Zoom, but recently my boss completely lost his sh!t at me during a meeting. Afterwards I was shaking I was so upset. How do I continue communicating with him? I’m afraid to be in a small meeting with him and was really uncomfortable during a larger team meeting with him yesterday. I *need* to talk to him sometimes for work stuff but I’m really not sure how to handle it. Any advice?

    1. frog*

      Can you speak to your skip-level about potentially ameliorating your need to communicate with your boss? Honestly, this shouldn’t be your responsibility – your boss should be the one to apologise to you and try to create a more positive, constructive line of dialogue, as well as explaining to their boss that stress is making them treat their coworkers poorly – but it doesn’t always go that way.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I agree. This sounds like a situation where it’s necessary to bring in the manager’s boss, or HR if you have it. You’re not trying to get your manager in trouble, but he needs someone to tell him that the way he’s interacting with his staff right now isn’t professional or appropriate.

      2. Spotted Elephant*

        My boss’s boss is aware. I told him I don’t feel comfortable being in smaller meetings with my manager at this time, but he didn’t really provide any guidance on that. He’s mediating a talk for some of the senior staff next week (related to many issues, not just this one.) He asked me to keep an open mind and come. I said I would, but I honestly doubt one hour is going to change things.

        I’ll be shocked if I get an apology!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Telling him you feel uncomfortable is not the same as asking advice.

          You may need to re-open the conversation, “Oh, BTW, when I mentioned about smaller meetings with my boss, I meant to ask you what advice you might have for me. I would like some tips or ideas, please.”

    2. AC4Life*

      Stress toys really help me. Squeezing company branded ones help me feel like I’m fighting back, but no one can tell when they’re off camera.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      When your boss goes ape-poo crazy, you have to see it as a technique he uses. It’s not personal. He’d do it to anyone if he thinks he can get away with it. He knows it gets under people’s skin, he knows he does it as a way to establish dominance, etc.

      It’s not like this kind of thing sits on a continuum of highly-emotive communication styles that correspond to your work performance. If things were going amazing well, would you expect him to lie down and literally kiss your feet after tossing money around you? That would be absurd and ridiculous, right?

      So the way I’ve dealt with this is to realize it for what it is – an attempt by someone to use irrational behavior to achieve something that they aren’t getting. No different than a 2-year-old throwing a tantrum. And the response is to just let them scream and spit, and when they’ve run out of breath, carry on with the professional conversation. If for no other reason, you’ll feel better about your own behavior in retrospect. You were the rational adult in the room.

      I know it’s hard to internalize this now, after he’s already gone around the bend at you and you’ve had a strong reaction to it. And maybe the current situation can’t be fixed without re-organization & apologies.

      Also, when you say you are afraid to be in the same room as him – do you mean you’re concerned about actual physical violence? If so, disregard everything I wrote and go straight to HR and/or a lawyer.

      1. anonymous73*

        While all is true, allowing it to happen and never addressing it is not the way to solve the problem. OP shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells around their boss. They need to escalate it – to a higher manager or HR. Normally I would suggest talking directly to boss outside of the tantrum when they’re calmer, but if OP is genuinely afraid of them, it needs to be escalated ASAP. Yelling and berating is never okay at work, and stress is not an excuse for allowing that behavior.

      2. Spotted Elephant*

        No, not at all concerned about violence! I wouldn’t want to be yelled at like that in person, but I’m not in any physical danger.

        1. Spotted Elephant*

          Though he did try to prevent me from leaving a Zoom and I wonder what might have been in the same room and I’d try to walk out.

          1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

            LOL, how the heck does that even work? You just hit the hang-up button, or you get up out of your chair.

          2. Librarian of SHIELD*

            Alton Brown’s Evil Twin is right. He can’t stop you from leaving a Zoom meeting. You’re allowed to click the leave button.

            In fact, if he yells at you in a meeting again, I would recommend hanging up immediately and contacting his boss. I know you said his boss knows about the yelling, but keep telling him every time it happens, and keep saying this is unprofessional and unacceptable behavior.

            Your grandboss kinda sucks.

            1. Fran Fine*

              All of this (especially the part about grandboss sucking). Hang up on your manager the next time he attempts to yell at you. You don’t have to sit and take anyone’s verbal abuse at work.

            2. pancakes*

              He can’t stop anyone from leaving a Zoom meeting, no, and the fact that he tried to anyhow strongly suggests that he is lacking self-control with regard to anger. He is seriously untrustworthy as a result, whether he does this strategically in a crude ploy to establish dominance or simply lacks impulse control. Agree that this needs to be escalated. DIY recordings are not necessary to do so.

          3. no sleep for the wicked*

            Do you have a recording option? When he starts to wind up next time, tell him you’re recording for HR puropses or whatever might strike a little fear.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      I agree with frog about speaking to your manager’s boss. Present it as “can you help me figure out a way to solve this problem?” rather than as “I’m telling on Manager.” Keep it simple. “Grandboss, I’m having issues communicating with Manager. In a meeting recently, he yelled at me/insulted me/insert other unprofessional behavior here, and the experience left me really shaken! I understand he’s under a lot of stress as we’re so short-staffed, and I understand I made an error in following protocols/checking my work/whatever he was angry about, but I’m now in a place where I’m so worried about him losing his temper again that I can’t communicate with him about things that are necessary for work. Can you help me find a way of resolving this?”

      Everyone gets upset and frustrated. Sometimes with good reason. But there’s no excuse for unprofessional behavior towards your reports.

    5. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      If you felt able to say this, state that you would like to record any zoom meetings where your manager is present given their behaviour towards you – nothing wrong with setting a clear line for yourself as they were out of line.

    6. Kay*

      Can you move to strictly email conversations for something you must discuss with him? It sounds like from other comments that you do a lot of Zoom, if he refuses email and requires Zoom, can you record them?

      I know you say Grandboss already knows, but can you go back to them with the added screaming and say you aren’t comfortable with any further Zoom meetings, and from here you will communicate via email unless they have other ideas? Or draft questions to be sent through a 3rd party?

      Yikes – and I hope this gets better for you!

  20. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

    I am having one of those weeks where I just feel like I can’t do anything right. But one thing that is especially grating is that in my 1:1 with my new boss she brought up that at an in-person workshop last week between my team and another team we work closely with that “during a breakout session, someone felt that you were being negative.” It feels very weird to be tone-policed so vaguely, especially considering that the whole context of the workshop was to improve processes and the thing I was “negative” about was a pain point about communication across our team (I’m a pretty direct speaker, but I wasn’t rude or out of line). It’s also weird to me that “being negative” was worth a) complaining about and b) my boss and grand boss thinking it was worth bringing up with me to “address”. I pushed back during the conversation on the idea that being negative, especially given the context of the workshop, was necessarily a bad thing. We aren’t robots and nobody is going to be perfectly happy all of the time.
    Additional context – this was a meeting of 100% female presenting people including myself (a female presenting nonbinary person) (one male was attending via video call) and I’m pretty sure I’m the only neurodivergent person in the room.
    Am I wrong by being frustrated and weirded out by this?

    3. JelloStapler*

      Ugh I hate the vague “you were negative” feedback, especially when you don’t know what is was regarding or you were giving direct and constructive criticism that someone apparently did not want to hear.

      1. Pumat Sol*

        Weirdly, even though the description of events was very vague, I was able to pinpoint the exact conversation and the person who complained (we literally only had one breakout session). So I was able to drag the conversation into something with a semblance of value, but if I hadn’t been able to do that, I’d be extremely frustrated and confused (as opposed to my current level of moderate frustration).

    4. Librarian of SHIELD*

      How do they expect you to engage in problem solving if you’re not allowed to mention things that negatively impact the team and the work?

      1. pink fuzz*

        It’s often as simple as the difference between someone saying “this process is impacting our work in X way” versus “this process is terrible” or “I hate this process”. Tone-policing may be in play here, but also, sometimes more judicious choice of wording can negate the outcome that people label you as “negative” rather than comprehending that someone is talking factually and impartially about a pain point and not just b*tching.

        1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

          That’s part of why I am frustrated – I used business appropriate language. I said essentially after discovering a process change I wasn’t notified of: “When did this change? Why wasn’t this communicated? You know, I’ve noticed this is a trend for our team. Something changes and the change isn’t communicated. I want to flag this as a pain point for me.” then I proceeded to give 1-2 more examples of when this pattern had occurred. Nowhere in my speaking did I say anything personal or really emotive beyond “I find this frustrating.”

          1. Anonymous Koala*

            So I don’t think you did anything wrong, but it sounds like your team / bosses are sensitive to the direct language and/or tone you used. If you want to express your frustration more circumspectly next time, you could say:

            “Oh, I didn’t know that had changed. I feel bad that I was out of the loop on that one. Is there a way we can put a process in place for notifying people of changes like this? I think I’ve experienced similar lapses in communication, like when we were working on X and Y. [Team lead], would it be possible to get a weekly update email summarizing process changes?”

            The language in the latter focuses on how you were affected by the problem (you didn’t know about X) and prompts discussions about a solution to the larger communication problem.

            1. Kay*

              Seconding this. While you didn’t necessarily say anything bad per se – if you had said something along the lines of “Oh no, I completely missed that change and have still been doing it the old way! Come to think of it, the same thing happened back when the policy changed from submitting required documentation from 10 days to 2 days (and we would incur a 100k fine per occurrence) and we nearly had a 5 million dollar fine, and that other insert really important need to know info or drastic consequence here – is there a better way we can make sure that all these policy updates are sent out to all members of the team in a timely fashion so this doesn’t happen in the future??” the way people respond to the two are usually very different.

              Now that you know people on your team, and your bosses, are sensitive to perceived criticism and tone, I would adjust accordingly.

    5. Isben Takes Tea*

      I don’t think so! I hate vague feedback, or feedback delivered from a third party without any inquiry into the original context or situation. And tone policing is one of the most irritating forms of feedback, since it’s so subjective and impossible to please everyone for. And coming from a new boss—who may not have much context for how I normally operate—would definitely make me irritated!

      From what you said, it may also may be the case that if it’s one of “those weeks,” you may be feeling it extra intensely—which doesn’t invalidate it at all! But it may be influencing the meaning you’re attaching to it. If it were a week where everything were coming up roses, do you sense it would have bothered you as much? If not, I’d take this moment as a data point as you move forward with the new boss, but try to chalk it up to “one of those weeks” for now. It may be a one-off, or it may be the beginning of a pattern. It’s really hard to tell right now.

      I hope your weekend turns the week around!

      (And, respectfully, your username made my day. <3)

      1. Pumat Sol*

        Thank you, this is a really helpful way to frame it to myself.
        (and I’m glad you like my username. I’ve been kind of waiting for another Critter to notice.)

    6. anonymous73*

      I would have asked my boss if they felt I was being negative. Nobody is happy 100% of the time, and pointing out issues is not being negative. It’s being realistic. Nothing is perfect, and bringing up issues is they way you work to resolve them.

      With that being said, I was in a situation a few jobs ago where I was unhappy. My boss came to me and told me that one of the new team members asked her why I was still there if I was so unhappy. That was a wake up call that I was complaining too much and I needed to make a change. So I would take some time to think and figure out if this is a pattern, or if it was just 1 blown out of proportion isolated incident.

      1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

        I’d say it’s just a one time thing – I’ve only been at the org 7 months and am generally pretty happy and satisfied with my job. I don’t complain often – but like I said, the meeting was literally to discuss our processes and flag places for improvement.

        1. anonymous73*

          Yeah that’s really odd. Maybe bring it up again and ask how they think you should have handled it? Maybe try and figure out the reasoning behind bringing it up at all.

    7. linger*

      “Negative” in the context of an attempt to improve processes could mean “only raised problems, without offering suggested solutions”. And maybe your boss is one of those “don’t bring me problems, bring me solutions” types who believes that approach saves time. But since that approach just as often prevents discussion that could lead to a solution, you’re not wrong.

      2. linger*

        (Admittedly, the phrase “personal pain point”, if that is an exact quote, probably should have been avoided.)

    8. Joielle*

      Ha! I got very similar feedback in a previous job, and my response was basically “Well yeah, I am fairly negative. I’m an attorney, it’s my job to identify potential problems and point them out so we can avoid being sued.” It was immensely frustrating. Like, sorry I’m good at my job, and my job is to tell you not to do things that are illegal, even (especially) if you really really want to do them.

      I know you didn’t ask for advice, but maybe you could try a similar tactic – point out that it’s part of your job to identify process improvements and ask questions about how they arose and how they could be improved. So you are very sorry to hear that this work was perceived as negative, but the questions still need to be answered.

    9. tessa*

      I think it’s ridiculous for your higher ups to use a single instance of perceived negativity to express concern. If there’s a pattern on that, fair enough, but this just sounds like you were being straightforward, which isn’t the same as negative.

      I think your situation resonates with me because I’m currently leaving a workplace where this kind of thing happens routinely. It’s mostly caused by slackers and people pleasers, and they pout over everything that isn’t sweetness and light. I love what I do, but it’s tough to be responsible for certain processes AS WELL AS other people’s susceptibility to being butt hurt if you don’t coddle with your words. Adults should be able to discuss things straightforwardly. It is just that simple.

      Again: patterns of behavior are what deserve the microscope. Not single instances.

  21. Rapunzel*

    Any advice on how to respond to male coworkers specifically apologizing to me (a young woman) when they swear in a group of coworkers where I am the only woman? From the context this is clearly not because they are swearing in a work environment (they are fine swearing in front of other male coworkers), but specifically because they don’t want to swear in front of a woman.

    I want a breezy response that doesn’t cause a major issue or continued conversation, but does potentially give them pause / may lead to some of them realizing that this is sexist. An example of the type of response I’m going for is “You too!” if a man compliments a woman on her handshake.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Ha! I’ve always just laughed and say, “Don’t apologize for that shit.” They laugh, and we all move on.

    2. lost academic*

      Maybe something like “I don’t think anyone was offended/bothered!” with a smile/laugh.

      This happens to me a LOT at client sites. It’s hard to get people past the way they were raised (to not swear in front of women/children, stuff like that). You have to walk the line between making a point that isn’t derailing with the breeze, and actually being heard. And you have to be comfortable with not likely moving that needle.

      1. Rapunzel*

        I love this idea! It gets across the “surprised”/”confused”/”why are you apologizing?” without actually asking the question. And it subtly points out that they’re apologizing specifically to me, even though we’re in a larger group of people. I’m going to try this next time, with a surprised but friendly smile.

    4. ShysterB*

      When this has happened to me, I’ve at times used something like, “Oh, don’t worry about me, I curse like a stevedore” (and I do, I really really do) or simply respond (if possible) with a light-hearted joke about how there’s no effing offense taken by me.

      There have been occasions, though, where the person(s) in question have been the sort where I’ve wanted to return the awkward to sender, and I just look at them, confused, and asked them why they’re apologizing to the only woman in the room.

    5. Macaroni Penguin*

      You could respond with a swear word of your own. Like, “Why the **** are you apologizing?” If said in an amused tone, this can come off as very friendly like. But I find it only works if swear words are part of your normal vocabulary. Swearing isn’t part of my typical speech, so here are some phrases I’ve used.
      “Please speak normally, I’m not offended.”
      “Don’t stop swearing just because I’m a woman.”
      “Why are you apologizing?”
      “My ears!” *dramatic pearl clutching* “Dude, seriously. Just be yourself “

    6. Burnout*

      Lived in the south. Military spouse. I found a laugh to be the most effective along with a casual:
      – no delicate ears here!
      – married to the military, it’d take more than that to offend me!
      – you’d have to try much harder to offend me!
      – scandalous!

      You could also pretend to gasp and clutch pearls and then totally laugh it off like they’re being a bit precious.

      It’s usually something about their cultural upbringing and being casual is fine to assure them you’re not going to be offended or tell their grandma.

    7. Littorally*

      A lighthearted “Oh, I don’t f**kin mind!” tends to get the point across without getting people defensive. Whether or not it will make anyone rethink their attitudes is a different question, but in my experience, challenging someone’s worldview without putting them on the defensive is an extremely fine needle to thread.

      1. JelloStapler*

        I do this if I know the person relatively well and know they have a good sense of humor. I may tone it down to “I don’t give a d*mn!” though. LOL!

    9. Ashley*

      I typically throw in if you apologize for swearing in front of me it means I will feel bad swearing in front of you.
      If you want to be more overt you can call him out for only apologizing to you.
      Other times I have just sworn in hearing range of others so they know I won’t be offended.

    10. Stephivist*

      Now sure if this is the kind of response you are looking for (I’m not sure it would make anyone think), but I’ve used “Ahh [swear equal to what they’ve used], don’t worry about me.” It always took care of it and put everyone at ease.

    11. Artemesia*

      I don’t recommend this unless you know your room but I had one colleague who did this a lot, and finally said. “Well, F#$k Charlie, I’ve used the damn term myself but it is probably offensive to someone here and would probably be really offensive to some of the clients.” I got tired of being the only woman in the room and having this kind of constant undertone of sexism.

    12. Laney Boggs*

      “Don’t apologize on my account.”

      “I’m not bothered by that.”

      “Why are you sorry/what are you apologizing for?” Feels a bit confrontational to me, but something with a similar meaning and toned quizzically could do it too.

    14. Dark Macadamia*

      “Shit, who cares?”

      This is so obnoxious. Presumably they’re not taking off their hats, standing when you enter a room, or IDK bowing and kissing your hand as a greeting, so why aren’t they aware the norms for Coarse Language Amongst The Fairer Sex have changed too?

    15. LadyByTheLake*

      I sometimes say (in a breezy tone) “are you apologizing to me because you think I’m a delicate flower? I guess you don’t know me yet.” — then laugh.

    16. DarthVelma*

      Ask them if they’re apologizing for the swearing or their sexism.

      Ok, probably more confrontational than you like.

      Maybe go with a nonchalant “whatthefuckever dude”.

    17. RagingADHD*

      I have usually made a joke, like “Lan’ sakes, pass me my smelling salts!”

      Or gone oblivious (often sincerely) because I didn’t hear / register the swear in the first place. “Sorry for what? What are you talking about? Did I miss something?”

      1. Just a different redhead*

        I’m on this page as a great approach when swearing is occasional / is not religiously-oriented. I like doing a good overdramatic “Oh, my! How shocking!” with a smile.

        Tbh though for whatever reasons I do get really bothered (i.e. involuntary discomfort/emotion spiking that continues until I and the circumstances part ways) if swearing is frequent / continuous or does invoke those who are of religious importance to me personally, so more often than not my usual response when an apology ends up happening is “Ah, thanks” while looking sheepish, without considering whether it’s because I’m a woman or not; though I have the additional yardstick of there being other women here and knowing that the apologies are towards me as an individual. (Some even from the other women XD )

    20. SnappinTerrapin*

      FWIW, I’m embarrassed when I slip and cuss in a business meeting, whether men or women are present. With my upbringing, it’s exacerbated if a woman is present. No apologies for that. It’s the way I am, and isn’t intended to mistreat anyone. To the contrary, I want all interactions to be respectful.

      Having said that, I’m not always consistent in how I handle my embarrassment. I might apologize, or I might brazen it out and pretend nobody noticed or cared. After all, sometimes it is possible to make too big a deal of that.

      A different context from Rapunzel, since she noticed a pattern of her colleagues treating her differently.

      The casual, breezy responses strike me as appropriate.

  22. Career Counselor?*

    I know it’s a long shot but does anyone in the NYC area know a good career counselor? Especially for people wanting to change careers from book publishing?

    1. bookperson*

      Not a career counselor but I’m someone who successfully transitioned out of book publishing — any questions I can answer? I was in the industry for 5+ years and was in editorial.

      1. Career Counselor?*

        Yes! What did you go into and how did you find a new career? I’m at a loss for how to start. I’m in production editorial.

        1. bookperson*

          Production editorial like managing ed? If so, I think those skills would translate amazingly to project manager jobs anywhere — if you want to keep doing tracking and managing the work of people who don’t report to you! I had great respect for my colleagues on that team — also may have worked where you do as we also called them production editors! Hello to any friends who might read AAM and know who I am from this post… And if not managing ed, what is your work like?

          I did some thinking about what field I was interested in moving to and where I would learn the most, did a bunch of informational interviews with people who were friends of friends in that field, and got a job at a small nonprofit where I had a loose connection. I learned a lot there but eventually ended up deciding to go to grad school and my grad school connections helped me get my first job after grad school, which gave me the resume to get my next job without any networking. I’m still using my writing and editing and task and project management skills all the time and I’m making more than I would have in publishing (and I no longer live in NYC).

          All this to say — you have so many transferable skills, you just have to figure out where you want to use them. The informational interviews are a good way to learn about fields you might be interested in and what the kind of work you want to do is called in that field. Definitely use all of Allison’s resume and cover letter tips to show how your experience connects — again assuming managing ed, keeping people across many teams, and many projects, on task and on time, while meeting external vendor deadlines is *huge*. Throw in the pressure of big name authors and rush jobs and you can show you are a proven calm-in-the-storm colleague. Also you are probably great with various systems and databases and new jobs are always thrilled when you aren’t intimidated by learning whatever (often ancient and complicated) system they’re using.

          Grad school worked for me because I was able to keep it relatively low cost — different approaches to that include state schools, getting a job at a university for tuition benefits, going somewhere where your background/credentials are unique and tuition scholarships are offered. But I wouldn’t have done it if I wasn’t keeping my loans down, and I’m glad I did the pivot for a job before applying for grad school as that helped clarify what I wanted to study.

          Hope some of this helps and will check back.

          1. Career Counselor?*

            Thank you for writing such a great answer! There’s a lot of good information in there.

            Production editors are similar to managing editors, I think. I’m not sure I want to keep tracking people though! I think it comes back to figuring out what else I might be interested in and I’m having trouble with that part.

            1. bookperson*

              Totally hear you — I was doing a lot of tracking in a previous job and I’m glad to have that piece reduced. Are you still pretty early in your career? (Apologies if this advice is not helpful for the stage you’re at.) It could be worthwhile to do some informational interviews with folks in marketing, publicity, sales, operations — even if you ultimately want to leave publishing, those are all roles that other organizations have and you could get a sense of the kind of work they do. I’ve found that for me I need to like the day-to-day work and care about the mission, so understanding what the tasks other roles do is key. (I enjoyed reading manuscripts and writing editorial letters but that was not how I spent all my time, and I needed more novelty/chance to build new skills in my work looking down the road at a career.)

              If you’re within the first 5 years of your career I would check out any early career groups available to you, in house or in the industry — the AAP’s YPG and the CBC’s ECC both hosted a lot of events, not sure where they are now with COVID. Networking in the industry might open doors to jobs you weren’t aware of that are a better fit, and you never know if the person you just met on Zoom might have a friend who works in a totally different industry you’re interested in who will chat with you.

              I will also say that I moved over to the nonprofit/government sector because I couldn’t see myself working on products that weren’t books. That’s just me, though! Someone gave me the advice to pay attention to what you enjoy reading and learning about and that helped some. Also think about what culture you want to be part of and don’t take for granted the parts of publishing culture you like — I’ve had a job or two where people didn’t seem to read for pleasure and that just felt wrong. Oh! And if you are already freelancing on the side and like it, or you can get that gig going before you leave, do it — there are many former publishing people who still copy edit/proofread/write/edit after leaving and it’s a nice way to make some money and keep a toe in the industry (and sometimes involves free books! You will miss the free books when you leave!!).

              Good luck!!

              1. bookperson*

                Last thing (probably) — LinkedIn 2nd degree connections are your friend, especially in the small world that is NYC! Want to work at Google? Somebody you know probably knows someone there. (And even 3rd degree can work if the person who knows someone who knows someone is a good friend of yours willing to talk you up to their 2nd degree connection!)

                1. Career Counselor?*

                  Thank you for coming back! Good info but I’m 15 years into my career so it would be more of a shift. Any chance you have any advice knowing that? (You’re really good at this!)

                2. bookperson*

                  You’re very kind! I enjoy doing this for other people (someday maybe I’ll figure out some way to coach!). I was aiming for publishing through college so when I realized I wanted to change I was at sea and it’s easier to chart courses for others than myself!

                  I would think you’d have (unfortunately!) the easiest time transitioning to a project manager role outside the industry, especially if you looked into the official certifications. But there are so many jobs that need those skills and aren’t project manager jobs, so it’s definitely about finding an industry/org you’re interested in. If you have tuition remission look into whether you can use it to try out a course or two (if you have time!). I wouldn’t discount grad school – for certain programs you’d be an interesting candidate because your background is atypical and you have practical working experience while a lot of Master’s degree programs attract 22 year olds, so you might be able to swing funding. Definitely look at higher ed project manager and administrator jobs — not exec assistant unless that’s interesting to you, but there are lots of roles that need good communicators and people who know how to manage up — and you could then use tuition benefits to get more skills/try new areas.

                  Our timelines overlap so there’s a nonzero chance we worked together and at the least we probably know people in common. I just made a burner email – username+current year, gmail— if you want to reach out and connect, and will then switch to real email.

                  Either way, you’ve got this! Good luck!

            2. Seeking Second Childhood*

              Maybe take a step through technical publications–similar but corporate. And then move to managing something different with that company/industry.

        1. bookperson*

          See above but, writing writing writing. I had a couple jobs in grad school and my writing was always a huge asset. You know how to write calm, focused, professional emails to get information out of people? You will use that skill in every job you have and you will realize not everyone has it. You’re good at breaking things down into steps and making sure people understand it? Also very helpful. Relatedly — time management!

  23. Excel Jedi*

    So, I have a dilemma:

    I just got an offer for a job making about 30% more than my current job, for less responsibility, at a nationally known nonprofit. I’d be working with a great team, with tools that I find genuinely fun to work with, on really wonderful projects that will have real social impact. On paper, it’s a no brainer.

    I’ve just been moved to a new team at my current job though, and I have such high hopes for the TYPE of work I’ll be able to do there. I’ll be on more creative projects, which will tie in much closer to my degrees and to my passion. My social impact will be a bit less direct, but I’ll be stretching myself in new ways, and getting into the kind of work that my resume doesn’t set me up for yet. I’ll be breaking into a niche I’ve wanted to get into for a long time. But I’ll never be paid at market rate at this particular nonprofit.

    How do you weigh these pros and cons? Are there strategies for this decision making?

    1. Voodoo Priestess*

      Two things: First, find someone you trust and explain this all to them. Get their opinion and then pay attention to your reaction. Are you in agreement or are you trying to justify the other choice? Are you trying to sell either one? That’s the one you want.

      Separately, think through each scenario: First where you take the new job, next where you don’t. Take time when you’re by yourself and undisturbed and really play it out: first day, things to accomplish, unknowns, etc. Which is more exciting? Which makes you feel regret? Sometimes listening to your gut/heart/intuition instead of looking at the logical pro/con list is what you really need.

      Good luck!

    2. Ariaflame*

      Have you tried the coin flip/dice roll method? As in flip the coin or roll the dice to determine what you go for, and then ignore the result. In general you will find that if you do have a built in preference, this will be made clear when you make the choice dependent on random chance, because either it will come out as what you want and you will find that you’re happy, or it will come out as what you don’t want and you will notice that you were unhappy with the toss. Either way it helps you determine what your preference is.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      I think a lot of comes down to personal stuff on these things. Will that 30% raise make a significantly measurable difference to your life? (i.e. max out retirement benefits, save for a house, whack away student loan debt, etc). Also, if you pass on this opportunity, are there any particular negative benefits like it being a black mark to your reputation? Also, will the raise perhaps allow you to give back in some fashion to the non-profit you’d be leaving and allow you to get some fulfillment that way?

    4. Camelid coordinator*

      I agree with all the advice to try on each and see how you feel. Imagining yourself telling other people each one of those decisions. Are you excited and happy or slightly disappointed?

      My concern about staying where you are is that your decision would be based on the new position at current place’s potential and not on anything you know for sure. I also wonder where you are in your career. If you have twenty years left you might prefer to get into the more creative work now since you’ll enjoy it more in the long run. If you are looking at 5-10 years to retirement you might want to think about socking away money while you can and take the higher-paying position.

      1. TGI(February)*

        This was my thought. How will you feel if you stay on in this role and the potential you saw doesn’t pan out? You’re still going to be underpaid and know you passed up guaranteed improvement in your situation. Can you live with it (genuine question) knowing you rolled the dice and lost, or would you feel utterly betrayed? I tend to believe that once you’re at the level where these roles are open to you, it’s unlikely to be your only chance – meaning in another year you could get another similar offer if you wanted – but there are no guarantees.

    5. Purple Cat*

      You say you won’t be paid market rate at this nonprofit for the niche work – is there possibility for higher pay of the niche work somewhere else? And how likely is the “high hopes” to actually play out?
      I’m very pragmatic, so higher pay for less responsibility for work you really enjoy is hard to give up. More money and less stress (presumably) to enjoy your “life” more… But on the other hand, if you think 20 years down the road you’ll really regret not giving this niche a chance and you wouldn’t be able to break into it later….

      I would do a list of pros/cons, but think of it as worst-case if you stay or switch, and then best case if you stay/switch. What might you regret and what can be done (or undone) later.

    6. anonymous73*

      I would make a list of the things that are important to you in reference to your career, as well as personal things that are affected by your career (commute, work-life balance, etc.). For each important thing on your list, make a pro/con list for each job. When you see everything written out in front of you, the choice will probably be clearer. If it’s not, have a trusted friend/SO/relative go through the list with you and talk it out.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Whatever the 30% salary difference comes out to, would you pay that to go back to school for a certificate in this niche? Is it worth the tuition?

      What is the upside on salary for the niche, and who is paying? How likely is it that you could get one of those jobs?

      If you invested the extra 30%, how long would it take before your earnings at a new job in the niche would catch up to the money you passed up?

      If there are no better-paid jobs in the niche, or if they are unattainably competitive, how long are you willing to work underpaid in order to do cool stuff?

      Sometimes people choose cool jobs for less money, permanently. If thats what you want, great. If it’s not what you want, you need to assess how realistic your timeline is for making the switch.

    8. ecnaseener*

      Ah, I just did this! If you’re a list/table type of decision-maker, here’s what I used:

      Column 1: Factor I care about (salary, benefits, management, type of work, amount of variety, etc.)
      Column 2: brief summary of how good that thing is at my current job (and in your case, include the potential for your new team but be clear what’s a hope and what’s a relative certainty)
      Column 3: how good I expect the thing would be at new job
      Column 4: bottom line, which job is better in this factor? (“new job would probably be better,” “I’m risking losing something great for an unknown,” “shrug emoji”
      Column 5: importance [low, medium, high]
      Column 6: numerical score (positive score = points toward new job, negative score = points toward old job, zero = no real difference), scaled by importance. (So a high-importance factor has scores of +3 to -3, medium +2 to -2, low +1 to -1. I didn’t bother with half points or anything, but I gave some high-importance factors a smaller score than 3 if the improvement would be small or uncertain.)

      The math part may or may not be helpful for you, but considering each factor one by one was really helpful.

  24. Lemon Ginger Tea*

    Good news from the land of job hunting– I received and accepted a job offer this week!! It’s a new industry for me after 10 years working in law firms. The new job is remote (current job is not), about a 20% raise, more PTO, and perhaps most importantly there’s good potential for career growth within the new company. I’m so excited!
    I applied to about 150 postings mostly through LinkedIn, had about 6 interviews with different companies, and it’s been about 2 months since I started seriously applying.

  25. This is Fine Meme = Me*

    Just wanted to vent a little. I’ve been at my current job for some time now but keep to myself because I prefer to separate work and personal life. But my coworkers are the complete opposite! They know all about each other’s affairs, sex lives, alcoholism, and other very personal problems – more personal than the ones I’ve listed. Compared to other people who openly share this information, I’ve revealed only the bare minimum of personal info and am not well liked like the oversharers. I’d like to be well liked professionally to build up political capital but talking about my dating life and personal struggles is really not how I want to do that! Unfortunately, that seems to be the only way of doing that, from what I’ve observed… It’s an all around weird place to work at and I don’t plan to stay here, so I’m just collecting stories to entertain my friends with.

    1. Artemesia*

      Can you think about an area of your life that is not deeply personal that you could overshare? A hobby, a cultural interests, a sport you do, a pet, an organization you participate in — so that you can blather on about your weekend, your trials and tribulations training your dog etc without touching on your sex life, religion or other highly personal areas.

      1. This Is Fine Meme = Me*

        Oh I certainly have! Hobbies, tv shows, etc are exactly the things that my colleagues already know about me. However the conversation can abruptly change to inappropriate topics. I’ve tried some of Alison’s scripts by brushing off the weird questions with “oh I don’t want to talk about that hahaha” and similar phrases but they are not received well. Sometimes this place makes me feel like I’m on a prank show!

        1. Fran Fine*

          It’s time to start making stuff up, lol. Create a character, give that character a backstory, and then the next time your boundary-crossing coworkers try to drag you into these types of conversations, you’ll have material. They’ll get their drama and gossip fill (just make sure nothing you make up can damage you don’t professionally) and you’ll get included when it’s time for actual important work conversations/decisions. Win/win.

          (And if you’re morally opposed to lying, just think of this as acting while you look for another job with a more professional environment.)

    2. 867-5309*

      Can you find some safe topics to talk about? Like your love of dogs or a hobby? That way you can contribute but aren’t delving into highly personal territory?

    3. clownfish*

      No advice from my corner, just solidarity. I’m in a very similar workplace – a casual conversation between coworkers not long ago was “what would you say your biggest regret is?” Got some cold shoulders after declining to share, but what on earth are you supposed to say to something like that at work??

    4. BRR*

      Would it work to ask them more about themselves? People love to talk about themselves and I imagine oversharers especially do.

    5. SnappinTerrapin*

      I don’t even want to know what is even “more personal than the ones (you) listed.”

      Hang in there. Be an island of sanity in your little bay of oversharing.

  26. Voodoo Priestess*

    I’ve posted here a couple of times about a young engineer that has been driving me bonkers. Her work is mediocre, but she can’t take feedback and it’s a huge pattern of her not addressing issues, requiring 3+ reminders to finish tasks, and spending more energy on coming up with excuses than focusing on improving. After 2 years on the job (and with an advanced degree) she requires as much hand-holding as a mid-college intern with no degree or experience. She’s exhausting. After raising concerns with her directly (multiple times), and with her manager (I’m her task lead), things blew up in an overly dramatic way, including involving our chief engineer and group director. Group Director received a cold email the same day praising this engineer as “highly talented” and telling Director he should give her “all of your most complex work.” Simultaneously, she was complaining that I was being “unfair” and “not holding anyone else to these standards”. (Side note: she’s the only person on the job I’m managing and also the only person with <10 years of experience.) After that, she started questioning all of my technical feedback and asking to get another senior engineer's (male) opinion when I was the task lead. It got to where I was taking screen shots of conversations and time stamps on files because she was lying, and documenting everything through email and notes on my hard drive. I was concerned she was already telling everyone that I was being mean and changing the narrative so she was/is the victim.

    Well, fast forward to this week and I had nothing to worry about. I had a check-in with Director and a few things have happened. 1) Our task is being extended but she's being taken off the job due to performance and drama (phew) and 2) I found out she was removed from a previous project for the same reasons and two other projects all said her work was "OK" but she required a lot of hand holding and no one enjoyed working with her. I thought some of the issues were that she has a PhD and I don't, but they had her under a PhD earlier and he's the one who kicked her off his job. I brought up my concerns that she was painting me as unfair/demanding/mean and I've experienced this before. (I'm a woman in the technical part of a male-dominated engineering profession. It's difficult being a competent woman.) My manager reassured me that everyone she has talked to enjoys working with me and I am known for doing excellent quality work. She said this Engineer has done a lot of damage to herself and no one will take her criticisms seriously. I don't think this Engineer realizes how much she's damaged her reputation in her first job out of college.

    My stress level has significantly improved. Now I'm just counting the days until she's done on my project and she becomes someone else's problem to deal with. I expect to have her roll off in the next 1-2 weeks. We have 2 other young engineers that will step in for final design and they are both excellent to work with.

      2. Anonymous Luddite*

        Eh, I have a department of this type of engineer. In our case, it requires the department lead to have a functioning vertebra or two.

      3. Voodoo Priestess*

        Excellent question! Best I can tell, my company rarely fires someone unless it’s completely egregious or illegal activity. The rumors I’ve heard was that there were multiple (frivolous) wrongful termination lawsuits years ago and they have decided it is cheaper to manage someone out (get them to quit on their own) rather than terminate. It was expensive to deal with the lawsuit, even though the firing was justified.

        We also have several layers of management and a very conflict-avoidant culture. Sometimes the managers/directors really aren’t aware how bad things are because the task leads don’t want to say anything negative. And it’s pretty often that people who aren’t doing well also don’t get clear and direct feedback. This site has been a huge help to me for managing others. Prior to this mess, my last team of 3 young engineers are said they felt I communicated expectations and schedule clearly, so the always knew where they stood and what to do. I took that as a huge compliment! (They were a great team, too!)

      4. Voodoo Priestess*

        There’s one other thing at play, which is her visa. I was told work visas are renewed annually, so in situations like this, the company will usually wait to take action until after the visa has been renewed to give them time to find a new job here in the US without visa issues. (Do not rely on any of this information; it’s hearsay and I did not verify if it’s true.)

        My director sounded really frustrated. She came highly recommended by a senior person, so there’s some internal politics as well. It seems messy, all around.

    3. JelloStapler*

      So happy to hear this! Take a nice big deep breath and enjoy the weight off of your shoulders. Sounds like she is digging herself a sizable hole.

      1. Voodoo Priestess*

        If she hadn’t already burned the bridge, I would try to explain this to her, assuming she’s young and unaware. However, I’ve decided I can’t be more invested in her career than she is and I’m washing my hands of it.

    4. No Tribble At All*

      Yikes! That’s so surprising that it’s someone with a PhD needing so much direction and guidance. Most people with PhD’s I know only ask their advisor (and now their supervisor) things as a last resort — which can be a problem of its own.

  27. Mbarr*

    I’m annoyed, but I also acknowledge that I don’t have the right to be annoyed.

    After a meeting with my manager yesterday, I sent an email with a 3 row table, listing all their takeaways. One row of the table included, “As discussed, here’s the scathing review about X sent by Y.” (My manager wanted to discuss the review with my peer who is responsible for X.)

    My manager replied with a warning that I shouldn’t use the word “scathing” in my notes. “What if I didn’t vet the notes and forwarded it to peer?” I know my manager is right. And I know I’m in the wrong here. But a) maybe make sure you read what I send you? and b) “Scathing” was a description of the review, not of my peer’s work. The peer gets lots of good reviews, and this was an outlier, which is why my manager wanted to investigate/talk with them.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You might just chalk this up as reminding yourself that face-to-face communications are different from those that are written down.

      Also, your defense (a) doesn’t really work. Sure, he could read it right when you send it, recognize that your use of the word ‘scathing’ means this should be confidential, etc. But 2 months later he might have to dig into his email archives, not remember that you used a loaded word, and forward it on to somebody that might result in embarrassment and hard feelings all around. Better not to write down a loaded word like that in the first place. Written records last forever.

    2. Loulou*

      Writing an email that can be forwarded easily is a simple thing you can do to make your colleagues’ life easier. Yes, they should check before forwarding to make sure the contents are appropriate, but that’s also an unecessary step that can be eliminated if you just…don’t editorialize in the first place.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Every work-related communication should always be worded in terms that could be forwarded to anyone in the organization. You never, ever know what is going to get bcc’ed to whom, or who might accidentally forward it to someone they (or you) never anticipated being in the discussion.

      The words concerning, critical, negative, or just “the outlier review you wished to discuss” would all serve your purpose in this context.

      The more neutral your professional communications usually are, the more impact you’ll get from charged words when you really need them.

  28. AC4Life*

    Dear Ask A Manager, I never thought this would happen to me…. Male coworker on a peer team presented my deck outlining target state reporting for our new data strategy to our grand boss, and then to our great grand boss, after his deck was rejected as basic. Luckily, his manager thanked me for the deck beforehand tipping me off. My boss went full M@$$hole on them, crashed the meeting with great grand boss, made darn sure everyone knew it was my work, and blocked anyone else from speaking. I work in financial services and this is the first time I’ve felt like someone was a true ally.
    Yes, I’m applying to other jobs.

    2. Mockingjay*

      I think it’s great that your boss has your back. If you otherwise enjoy your work, do you want to leave a job in which your manager goes to bat for you?

      If these kinds of problems are prevalent, it might be worth having a candid conversation with your boss about them. You like the work and you’re good at it, you like working with Boss, but these kinds of issues create a negative environment. What can we do about them? Explore options. If nothing changes, then look for something else.

      1. AC4Life*

        Life is grand now, but if he decides he’s had enough and bounces things will get very ugly very fast.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I think it’s good that you’re keeping that in mind. It’s great that your boss is standing up for you, but if you’ve only got one person in leadership you can count on, it absolutely makes sense to look at other options.

    3. Anonying*

      It sounds like you have a great management team that truly had your back and made sure you received due credit for your work, and publicly so. Jerk coworkers are a dime a dozen, but those two managers are harder to find.

  29. Middle Name Jane*

    I’ve worked at a small non-profit for just over a year, and I’ve been miserable for months. The workload is heavy on everyone, and I’m burning out. I’m not new to non-profits, but this one is dysfunctional. The benefits are terrible (even by non-profit standards), and I’m not getting any support from my manager.

    I’ve tried Alison’s tips to talk with my manager about my workload, such as “I can do A and B, but not C. Or if C is really important, I’d want to move A off my plate to make room for it. Alternately, I can act as an advisor to Jane on C, but I can’t do the work of C myself if I’m also doing A and B.”

    Instead, I just get more work and more projects assigned to me. There is no such thing as a slow time of year at this organization, and I don’t see the workload easing up in the foreseeable future.

    I’m already job hunting, but what can I do in the meantime to ease my stress when management won’t listen to us about the unsustainable amount of work we have? I can’t go on working late every day and waking up at 3 a.m. in a panic about stuff that isn’t getting done.

    1. Violet*

      Wow, Middle Name Jane. You sound like me a year ago. Wait, did you fill my role when I left? I am so, so sorry anyone has to work there.

      In my opinion, there isn’t much one can do except keep job searching. That will come to fruition. And keep your non-work life pleasant. Really nourish yourself in your time off. Take a vacation! I did that and it was magical. (I also interviewed while on vacation.)

      Know you are worth more and that place is crazy. Maybe invest in some therapy afterward. There will be an afterward, I promise you.

      1. TGI(February)*

        Yep. Lifelong nonprofit worker. Take every inch of leave you can before you leave assuming it’s not paid out. Stress is an illness so use all your sick leave. Remind yourself you’re leaving any day now and these things are not going to be your problem in six months. Do the best you can with what you’ve got and then clock out without guilt at the end of your work day. Nonprofits eat their own young when they can.

    2. Ariaflame*

      Lack of good management on their part should not constitute an emergency on yours. What are the consequences if you limit what you do, to what is reasonable to do? Are they likely to fire you and then have to find a replacement? If they did, would you be secretly relieved?

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I think it’s time to stop presenting options, and simply flatly state what you can and can’t do: “X and Y are due this week. I have no bandwidth for any additional tasks or projects, and will not be taking on or responding to anything new until they are done.” If management isn’t willing to reassign or simply accept that you’ll get to it next Monday at the earliest, that’s management’s problem.

    3. Important Moi*

      I would suggest seeking a relaxation activity not related to job or your job duties. Most importantly, what ever it is you find relaxing, do it and lean in. Just remember – nothing is to mundane, no sophisticated enough, too sophisticated or out of your reach to do. (Wording is based on things that have been said to me.) I’ve found that really leaning in to activities that have NOTHING to do with my job or job duties help my peace of mind.

    4. Girasol*

      I had a boss who couldn’t prioritize and did not set deadlines. Cycling through her list of demands turned out to be the answer. She’d say “Your number one priority is A!” but I would hardly start before she’d say, “I need B first!” and then, “Put that aside! C is Big Boss’s hot button!” and then “Get D out of the way before anything else!” So I’d be working on D and she’d say, “Where are you on A? I told you that was your top priority!” So each day I’d cycle through the list, pushing each effort forward just far enough to be able to claim progress if she asked, and moving on to the next. I could say, “I took this step on A and I’m waiting for a reply from Bob, I filed a form on B, there’s a meeting planned for the C team, and I’m researching D now.” It’s an inefficient way to work – everything is moving at a snail’s pace – but it seemed to make her happy. Could your boss possibly be satisfied this way?

    5. Cold Fish*

      I’m not trying to add stress or be mean but I think you are forgetting the second half of Alison’s tip… letting things fail. Doing A & B and letting C sit there. Put in your 8 hours and leave, even if only A gets done. The worst they can do is fire you and like Ariaflame asks, would getting fired be a relief? Most of the time, fearing the fall is worse than the fall itself. But management isn’t going to change unless they feel the pain.

      (Constant stress and lack of sleep will often magnify problems in my mind. I struggle with this but find it very helpful when I’m stressed… take a deep breath and tell myself “I can only do what I can do.” )

      1. All Het Up About It*

        Yes. If you can’t keep working late every night – stop working late every night! I know that can be scary, but having worked in similar places and fields, you’re unlikely to get real backlash. (You’re also unlikely to get real support.) But failure also tends to highlight real deadlines opposed to “would be nice” deadlines and real priorities.

        Also – I also find I’m more likely to have middle of the night anxiety if I’m afraid I’m forgetting something. Sometimes just having a list of all the projects helps, because I know I’m not forgetting to do X, I’m just prioritizing A and B first.

        Good luck!

    6. Gumby*

      What would happen if you just stopped working late every day? Right now the workload is a problem for you. It isn’t a problem for your manager because you are protecting her from facing the consequences of assigning an unreasonable workload.

      If your manager won’t tell you what the priorities are when you ask, you could switch to a “Looking at my task list of A, B, and C, my sense is that A is the most important so that is where I will be putting the bulk of my effort for now unless you tell me that the priorities should be different.” Then work reasonable hours, do your best, and then stop working. Leave things undone. If you keep handling the massive workload they have no incentive to change. Make the price to your manager of not hiring more people/reducing the workload larger than “oh, I just have to listen to a few complaints but it will all get done.”

    7. All Het Up About It*

      It might be a little extreme, but just don’t work late. Don’t finish everything on time. Especially if you’ve had the conversations of, I can’t do X, Y, and Z. It’s a little scary, because it feels like you are going to get in trouble, and maybe you will, but maybe you’ll come to find out that that the reward for staying late every day is more work and the reward for not being a rockstar, is that you get to have a life. Sometimes, I’ve found that I stress myself out far more than the people around or above me. I get that it’s a risk, but your mental health is important, especially as you try and job hunt and find something more viable.

      Good luck!

    8. beach read*

      The company I used to work for was notoriously bad with providing adequate staffing in their offices. It was the number one issue brought up at every meeting. At one point I was doing the job of 3 people and quite failing at it, well, because, you know, I’m not 3 people. The stress of working under such conditions was awful. What finally made a difference to my state of mind was to ask myself, why was I getting myself so sick over it when the company was CHOOSING to keep the office without staff? If the staffing level was not acceptable to them, they would have changed the staffing level. I am not the CEO of The Company! Who was I to question them as to how they wanted to run their business? I did my due diligence in explaining what staff we needed and did my follow ups with my boss for status, what more could I do? I did my best and worked hard every day. You can’t change the status quo but you can change your attitude towards it.

  30. what are my weaknesses : self-review*

    Review time! What do people put for the ‘weakness’ or ‘needs improvement’ part of their self-review? I’m a late-career engineer, and I do the best I can. If there were an area that I knew needed work, I’d do it.

    1. Texan In Exile*

      I put technical things, like “learn Sharepoint” or “Learn SQL” and then ask for the $$ to take a class.

      I know some people put things like “Become a better public speaker” and use “join Toastmasters” as the action plan.

      That is, I put goals that can be measured and are not about my personality.

      2. Teal Fish*

        This is the approach I take, as someone also in the middle of my career and also highly proactive about professional development. I think about what would be interesting to me, what do I wish my company would pay for me to do, and put that down as my development goal. Think of it less like a “weakness” and more just like “these are my continuing education goals for this year.”

    2. Lady Danbury*

      I would encourage you to do further reflection. Everyone has weaknesses (none of us are perfect!) and if you can’t identify any than lack of self-awareness might be one! Do you have any trusted colleagues, mentors, past bosses/coworkers or even friends/family that you can talk too? What about action areas from past reviews? You can’t address your weaknesses if you aren’t even aware of them. As a manager, I’d be concerned if an employee gave a PR answer if I expected honest self-reflection.

    3. beach read*

      Gotta love review time! I typically mention time management as weaknesses. If you really don’t think you have any, go with N/A.

  31. BEC Mode*

    I wrote last Friday about Beatrice, a new hire who is overstepping her boundaries and authority.

    We work in audit and I found out on Monday that she has been reviewing and approving financial reporting controls.

    For those not in audit, this is like having the authority to approve purchases up to $500 but instead stepping in and approving purchases in the $50,000 range.

    And, in this case, it would be like approving a $50,000 cashier’s check that was going to be handed to fraudsters. Because the controls she approved as “All good, no problems,” did in fact have problems. Big ones. They shouldn’t have been approved.

    So not only was she operating outside of her job role, she got it wrong.

    The manager who caught the errors told me about them. I said, “I kinda get the impression that Beatrice thinks she is already a manager.” The Real Manager replied, “You’re not the first person to make that observation. Others have noticed it as well.”

    In my company, that just means that Beatrice will be asked/told to dial it down a bit, while being complimented for being a Go-Getter. [eye roll]

    1. Mockingjay*

      I’m cringing as I write this, but if you are the one who is catching Beatrice’s errors, maybe let her fail?

      Assuming that there won’t be blowback on you, of course. I’m guessing you are the one who has to step in and fix her blunders. Might be worth a convo with Real Manager to ensure you don’t get stuck with Beatrice’s problems in addition to your own work, or that her errors won’t be counted against you as a memeber of the Audit Department.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Nevermind, I reread it and saw that it was Real Manager who caught the problem this time. But still, do her mistakes reflect on you and the department?

      2. BEC Mode*

        No, I’m not the one catching the errors. A manager did. The manager told me about it. The manager is an Audit Manager and is the person who *should* have been approving the control testing.

        I am not having to fix Beatrice’s blunders, and I would be the loudest squeaky wheel in the company if I were.

    2. pancakes*

      Yikes! A person who steps this far out of their bounds and into the audit process can be a real liability.

    3. Curmudgeon in California*

      Yikes!! That can expose your company to some serious liability if it’s not curbed.

      If she does get the “go getter” treatment, you might want to think about looking for a new job, because that kind of thing can sink a company and make people who worked there look bad.

    4. Hiring Mgr*

      I’m not familiar with auditing, but it seems like something that should have controls so that employees would need certain permission levels to do various things. Not defending Beatrice but curious how she could approve those items in the first place

      1. Xenia*

        I am an auditor and I literally cringed back from the computer when I read that. There are at least three things wrong here: controls are being improperly applied (signing off on a check as OK when it’s really not out of incompetence/laziness/malice), insufficient IT and/or security controls (someone who is not a check signer getting access to check signing duties), and a lack of management backing for having good control procedures (she’s being told to dial it down rather than getting the “you’re opening us up to fraud, knock it off or you’ll be fired” talk). It’s good that the manager caught it, but this would be the sort of thing that if not corrected swiftly and ruthlessly would downgrade the company from getting a good report to getting a “we noticed some issues” report.

        1. BEC Mode*

          Hi Xenia,

          I explained below but the only thing Beatrice is signing off on is another auditor’s work. Apparently I’m really bad at applying analogies and highlighting that it’s an analogy and not the actual issue. Sorry about that, everyone!

          I’m not sure how it is in your shop, Xenia, but it’s a great big no-no at ours for a non-manager to sign off on someone else’s work. Even friends of mine who are Senior Internal Auditors at public accounting firms don’t sign off on / review-and-approve junior staff work. They, like us (in industry), lead projects, answer junior-level staff questions, and pre-review juniors’ work to help them turn in quality papers, but they (and we) don’t close out a test as “Done”. Only a manager has that authority.

          We also don’t assign junior staff to other people’s projects. Nor do we email the entire damned department (including the Sr VP) to crow about the training documents we found somewhere in the shared drive, declaring ourselves the Primary Discover/Provider of that training info.

          1. Xenia*

            Yeah, she sounds like a) a nightmare and b) a massive fraud risk. My sympathies, she does not sound fun to work with.

    5. anonymous73*

      Why did she even have access to do something like that? Somebody needs to fix the permissions in the system STAT. Yes Beatrice needs to be knocked down a few pegs, but it’s a failure in the system that she was even able to do something like that.

          1. BEC Mode*

            The cash analogy was just that. . . an analogy. No actual cash was involved.

            We work in Internal Audit and we “test” controls. Usually, that involves asking for spreadsheets that were used to calculate, say, payroll accruals, and we check the accuracy of the source data and the calculations, then make sure the numbers made it into SAP correctly, and that everything was appropriately reviewed and approved by Payroll / Finance management.

            So Beatrice, a Senior Auditor, approved a staff auditor’s test (the staff auditor’s work) and approved *that*. But there were material errors in two of the work papers / tests that she approved. The errors were easily resolved because, it turns out, we just weren’t given a complete set of data. So no harm came to the company. And, if there had been an actual mistake made in the payroll accrual calculation, there are other eyes besides ours on key elements of our financials, so a material mistake would have a 99.999999% chance of being caught.

            But Beatrice knows / should know that approving other auditors’ work is a MANAGER’S job, not her job! Having to spell that out is like. . . man, I don’t know. . . telling a non-manager that they shouldn’t be approving other people’s time-off requests or pay raises. It would never occur to anyone to have to say that!

            Beatrice doesn’t have access to cash or the ability to approve expenditures or sign up new vendors or any of the things normally associated with fraud. I’m sorry if my analogy about purchase approval levels led people astray. It’s just that most people don’t have a clue what Internal Audit does, and why Beatrice approving a co-worker’s work (and thus closing out the test) is a BFD.

            The “go-getter” speech will probably look like this: “We appreciate your willingness to take on responsibility and grow in your role. As you now, the next step after Senior *is* Manager. However, you’ve only been here three months and are still learning the ropes. In this department, the only people who can approve other people’s work are managers. Even a manager can’t approve their own work and it has to be reviewed by another manager. I like that you’re showing initiative, but let’s slow it down a bit, OK?”

            2. Hiring Mgr*

              It sounds like your company really doesn’t care that much if Beatrice does this, or at least they don’t seem to be taking it as seriously as they should if the consequences are really that big.

              Or they could just be thinking one mention, even in the “go getter” way, will be enough to get her to stop..

              1. BEC Mode*

                I sincerely hope (and think) it’s the latter.

                We’re a “nice” company. Like, “Minnesota Nice”. We’ll phrase things as politely as possible for as long as possible.

                I have seen evidence of escalation when the situation warrants (fraud, harassment, angry outbursts), but I have also seen past team members float by at a “C-minus” quality and output level, and management just not wanting to bother with what it would take to get rid of the person (per our own HR rules).

                As long as Beatrice isn’t causing financial harm, or isn’t crossing serious lines like harassment, then management will limp along with her annoying behaviors. I mean, they’ll keep having milquetoast conversations like the “go-getter” one, but they won’t say, “This is a final warning. You are not responsible for assigning staff tasks or monitoring their workloads, and you cannot sign off on their work. If you do it again, we’ll have to part ways.”

                In my company’s defense, the people in our department have advanced degrees, licenses, and certifications, and are expected to not only know how to use Excel at an advanced level, but to know how to operate in a professional, corporate environment. They would be expected to understand that the “go-getter” speech means, “Knock it off, do not act like this again.”

                But, as a long-time reader of AAM, I realize that this expectation isn’t always enough to correct improper behavior.

                I’m just secretly glad that Beatrice’s “bigger than her own britches” behavior rose to the level of management without me having to say anything.

                1. Hiring Mgr*

                  You mention that she’s a new hire – could it be that her previous company did things that way and so maybe she doesn’t consider it a big deal, or is more like a universal standard that wouldn’t fly anywhere?

                2. BEC Mode*

                  Hiring Mgr – It wouldn’t fly in the vast majority of companies with an Internal Audit department, or in the public accounting firms that co-source and out-source internal audit functions.

                  She worked in public accounting as a co-sourced internal auditor for six years without ever being promoted to Senior. Friends of mine in the same or similar public accounting firms were promoted after just one or two years.

                  I sincerely think it’s a “her” problem, not just a simple misunderstanding based on her past experience and norms.

            3. Gumby*

              But approving other people’s work is done in some sort of software, right? Like, you click a button saying “approved” or whatever? That button shouldn’t even appear to Beatrice. That the button shows up when she is logged in is a problem. Fix that and no amount of go-getterness will let her do something she shouldn’t.

  32. Anon for this*

    Motivation/procrastination advice requested! I am struggling with a lack motivation/urgency, and the procrastination goes along with it. It’s not my job, it’s me. My job is great, my team is great, but I’m struggling with motivating myself to get stuff done. I think I’m just generally tired of working! I’m having trouble staying engaged. Any thoughts on how I can get my work groove back?

    1. Necronomnomnomicon*

      I do what’s called the pomodoro method; for x amount of work I do, I reward myself with y amount of downtime. The most common is 25/5 – for every 25 minutes of work I do, I take a 5 minute break to stretch, grab a drink, etc. Could be worth a shot!

      1. Marion Ravenwood*

        I echo this. I’ve been focusing a lot recently on getting myself back on track in terms of productivity/not procrastinating after a bout of depression last year that had a big effect on my ability to motivate myself (in life as well as at work), and Pomodoro technique has been a huge help in that. Plus it’s cumulative – once you see how much you can get done in what feels like a relatively short amount of time, you feel like you want to keep going.

        1. Marion Ravenwood*

          To add to this: sometimes it really helps me to say out loud, “no, I’m not going to look at my phone/use social media/go on AAM etc, I’m going to file the llama reports/reply to Jim’s email/schedule that meeting”. It’s kind of catching yourself in the act of procrastinating and then course correcting it.

    2. Rara Avis*

      Lists help me, and starting with the easy jobs — it feels good to cross something off, and then I’m more ready to take on a more challenging task. Also rewards — getting coffee after I finish a task, or the like.

      1. Cold Fish*

        I second lists. But I alternate quick, easy task, then harder task, quick task, long task, etc. I get to cross things off the list but all the unpleasant/hard tasks aren’t piled up at the end. Sometimes just getting that one unpleasant task off the list is the huge relief I need to keep going.

        I also have a playlist of songs on my phone that are upbeat but I don’t sing along with. (I start singing and I start paying attention to the songs instead of letting the beat motivate) Then pop in those ear buds to block out distractions.

    3. Picard*

      If you come up with something, please let me know? I’m just so done. I work at a GREAT place, workload is manageable but I just CANT GET MY ASS IN GEAR.

    4. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex*

      focusmate dot com. This is one of the best suggestions my ADHD coach has given me. Basically you sign up for a 25 or 50 minute slot, you’re randomly paired with another user; at the beginning of the session you say “I’m working on filing my llama reports, I want to get this pile taken care of” and they say “Great I want to read at least 5 pages of this article” and then you go on mute and get to work, and at the end of the session you just tell each other how much you got done. Very minimal interaction but its great to have an accountability partner. There’s lots of students, fair number of working people, a few people trying to get regular at-home to-do lists done. I’ve used it to call the DMV, go through emails, do data cleaning, etc etc. Love it.

    5. Curmudgeon in California*

      I feel you. I have some executive function issues due to TBI and ADD. I have a seriously hard time with “task initiation”.

      I’ve taught myself to use lists. If I write it down, it becomes more real. Then I will often take each list item and break it down to the smallest little bits I can.

      After that, I’ll do the action-reward thing – “If I get X1 done I will do Y. If I get X2 through X5 done I’ll do Z”. I also have a lot of templates for stuff so that I don’t have to stare at a blank page to start stuff – action one is often copying and renaming the template.

      If I have a major block that lasts a long time on one project/task I’ve learned to start asking myself why. What I’ve found often is that there is a fundamental assumption underlying the work that I don’t agree with, or don’t understand. Once that happens, I can clarify with others what the real underlying reason is, get it updated or fixed if needed, and then *poof* my block often vanishes. YMMV, of course.

    6. Anonymous Luddite*

      I’ve recently had success with the Fake It Til You Make It method.
      I ask “What would I do if I -was- motivated?” and try that. Usually, part way through, my “oh right, I know how to do this” kicks in and I can work for the day. If not, I trudge along and at the end of the day, I still have -something- to show for it.
      Good luck!

      1. Just a different redhead*

        You know… I just realized that something I do to gain motivation is kind of similar to this.
        Rather than “What would I do if I was motivated” it goes “What would [name of some fictional character I admire] do to accomplish this?”
        It has a rather similar effect on me to what you described.

        1. Anonymous Luddite*

          Definitely! And that, in turn, reminds me of Finding Forrester’s advice for a writer: Start by transcribing something you like. In the eyes, out the fingers. Sooner or later, your own personal storyteller will take over and you will tell your own story. Then go back and re-write the first bit.

    7. Purple Cat*

      How did I write this about myself without knowing??
      I’m struggling with the same thing. The *only* thing that is marginally working is that I want to start looking for something new and I would be embarrassed and horrified at having to transition all of these undone things to someone else and admit at how horribly I’ve been slacking. So, think about how things would look/feel if you were to unexpectedly go out on leave tomorrow and act accordingly….

    8. anonymous73*

      I’m a visual person so I make lists…in a notebook…yes I’m old LOL

      Seriously though, making a list with checkboxes helps me with tasks and it’s super satisfying to check things off. I also take small breaks throughout the day, stretch my legs, do some basic yoga moves, pet a cat, etc. When I was in an office, I put on headphones and listened to music – it would help me concentrate and drown out the background noise.

    9. TGI(February)*

      I just encountered something called the “eat the frog” method. This is to pick one single priority for the next day – typically something important but not urgent – and do it first thing in the morning, before checking email. The twist is to get yourself set up the night before so you have everything in place to do that task. I think this may work really well for me and I’ve sort of been doing it without articulating it in the past, but fell off of it into a slump.

      1. FloweryFlowers*

        Interesting! I learned this as putting the task you’re dreading most first on your list. Then you make it the very first thing you do that day. Everything else is easier because you’ve already done the worst thing (eating the frog).

    10. JustForThis*

      This may sound counterintuitive, but possibly you need a real break — totally disengage from work and do things for yourself. Your energy and motivation may come back when you acknowledge that sometimes it’s ok to prioritise yourself over work.

    11. Rosemary*

      I 100% could have written this word for word. SO lacking motivation right now. I don’t have any advice, just letting you know you are not alone!

    12. Girasol*

      Very tiny steps. “All I’m going to do now on that awful task is get the paperwork out, look it over, and organize it on the desktop and then I can go do something else.” I don’t have to drum up lot of motivation to just look at it, but I usually find that once it’s in front of me, it doesn’t seem like such a big deal, and it’s easier to do just one more step and then another.

    13. Teal Fish*

      Two ideas – first, you might need a longer break. Can you try to save up some PTO and take a big chunk at once, maybe combined with a holiday to maximize the length of the break? Or even consider a short-term leave of, say, 1 month, and go do something very very different with your time.

      Second, you said it’s not your job but are you sure it’s not your job? Have you tried making a list of things you avoid vs things you jump right into with no trouble? Is there any pattern to those things? I noticed myself having this issue about 2 years ago and thought–OK I need to take more vacation and maybe cut back my work hours a little. Didn’t work. Then I thought maybe I’m more burned out on my company than I realized, and applied to new jobs in my field, but kept dropping out of interview processes because it all felt so blah. And then 3 months ago it finally clicked that I might want to move into a new team/sub-field, and I took an online class and it all fell into place and made the past 2 years make sense. I would have told you 2 years ago that it’s not my job either, but turned out it was. Sometimes you have a great job but it’s just not what you want to be doing anymore.

  33. I Capture the Castle*

    Any suggestions for a good way to say in a cover letter that I’m looking to re-enter the workforce after not having worked for four years?

    It’s been due to a combo of relocation/family/pandemic/other reasons, and I want to address it up front since employers prefer to hire people who already have a job or don’t have such a big gap, but I’m having a hard time getting the phrasing right and hitting the right balance on explanation, vagueness, etc.

    1. Texan In Exile*

      Just say it. I used the paragraph below in a cover letter to the first job I got after five years of unemployment. In retrospect, it’s way TMI, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that you have been unemployed because of a relocation and other family reasons but now you want This Job Because.

      “You might be wondering why I am looking for a job now, after several years out of the workforce. I met my husband before I was laid off from [from old job] at the end of 2005 (along with about 800 other salaried employees). He convinced me to marry him, move to Wisconsin, and become a lady of leisure. He has since decided that he would like to change careers, which means our financial situation will be reduced. I am also bored. I want to work. I miss doing something productive. I want to return to a fun, challenging job like the one you have posted.”

      1. Texan In Exile*

        Lord Have Mercy that is wayyyyy too much information.

        At least I left out that his career change was running for the WI Assembly.

        1. Texan In Exile*

          1. Don’t talk about your financial situation.
          2. Don’t say you’re bored.
          3. Don’t call yourself a lady of leisure.

          Honestly, it’s like a masterclass in How Not To Do It.

          I cannot believe I got an interview.

          1. I'd interview you*

            Honestly, even though it is TMI, I would be amused by it so if you had the experience I was looking for, I’d ask you for an interview.

          2. Pam Adams*

            The cover letter does show your personality- I’d have taken a chance on interviewing you. (Skills we can teach; personality and flexibility- not so much)

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      LOL at Texan’s TMI. I also was out of the workforce for 4 years and got back in, 4ish years ago. I think my cover letter just had a line about “Although I stepped away from the workforce for a few years due to family responsibilities, I stayed current with my professional credential/continuing education…”. You could use the same line but if the second clause isn’t applicable, just say “Although… , this position’s opportunity has sparked excitement at the thought of using my skills and experience to groom underprivileged llamas again.”

    3. I-Away 8*

      I had success with this sentence:

      “After a break to care for family, I’m excited to resume my career.”

      That was only partially true, but it was close enough. No reasonable employer would try to fact check a statement like that.

  34. Trying to improve*

    I am new-ish to management, and looking for advice on strategies when working with someone who cannot read social cues – they have self-disclosed as being on the autism spectrum, and leading productive conversations with them proves challenging. They are a steady-stream talker and fill any empty spaces. I find myself accidentally cutting them off or talking over them regularly to try to move the conversation forward. They also repeat information a lot, in part because of the steady-stream talking pattern, but also they struggle with change and it seems like they’re trying (in good faith) to make me realize that what I’m saying contradicts how it used to be done – which unfortunately is inevitable under new management to a certain degree.

    Multiple times since starting this position I have offered all the employees I work with now opportunities to talk about ways I can serve them better as a manager – do you need more support, different resources, etc. etc., but this person is definitely hesitant to offer any criticism upwards.

    My ultimate end goal is to make sure that they A) feel heard and respected B) don’t feel stressed by being cut off and C) don’t unintentionally over dominate meetings / interactions.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Artemesia*

      Those goals are contradictory. The steady stream blather is a major workplace behavioral problem and it can’t be addressed while ‘not cutting them off’ and ‘making sure they feel heard.’ I’d directly address that. They are not hearing anyone else while they are blathering.

      1. Trying to improve*

        I don’t want to them to feel cut off in the sense of feeling like they did not get a chance to convey important information to me because I by necessity had to move the conversation on. This is a good employee and a hard worker who just needs to be worked with differently. I’m not looking to act punitive towards a different brain wiring that just needs different leadership. Hope that makes more sense!

        1. Starbuck*

          As someone who works with classes of kids, I’ve built a library of redirect phrases for similar scenarios. Obviously they wont translate exactly (ok thank you for sharing but I see other people waiting patiently with their hands up so I am going to move on now) but with stream-of-consciousness talkers I find it’s very rare that they’re seriously unsettled or upset by the interruption. It took me a while to get over feeling rude, but when that’s someone’s conversational style you’ve got to adapt to the lack of give and take from them.

          Maybe interrupting with something like “hey thanks Cameron – I also want to talk about X in this meeting, did you have any other key points about Y to share before we move on?” or “thank you, we can come back to that later if we have time but I’d like to hear from others about X now since we need to move on to Y soon”.

          If you’re just redirecting and not punishing them, or saying something harsh like ‘ok that’s enough, no more talking for the rest of this meeting’ then I don’t think it’s going to come off as punitive.

    2. Burnt In Screensaver*

      I’m on the spectrum too, so maybe I can offer some insights. I’m not a manager though so I probably can’t help much.

      1 – They’re probably used to being interrupted and won’t see it as a sign of being disrespected, but as a normal conversation thing that happens.

      2- I’m always worried about being misunderstood. Having somebody say “I’m hearing you say xyz” lets me move onto the next topic more easily and not feel as much need to repeat information.

      3- Do they talk a lot in meetings? Asking bc my brain-to-mouth connection is just an on/off switch where my two choices are talking too much or being silent until spoken to, and then trying to be as quick as possible. Group meetings get the quiet me. Brains are weird and I just wanted to bring this possibility to your attention if you don’t usually see them in meetings

      1. Trying to improve*

        Oh I really like the wording from your #2 tip, thank you! I’m going to use that. I do think the repetition comes from a place of wanting to be clear as possible, because it sometimes starts to trace back through context of context of context until we’re in institutional memory or explanations that are completely unrelated to the issue at hand. And #3 totally makes sense to me, this is not someone who interrupts group meetings by any means, but if they’re asked something in their purview, it does seem like a switch flips.

        I appreciate you taking the time to share!

    3. Double A*

      Have you asked them about their communication preferences? Sometimes things that feel rude if you’re neurotypical (interrupting, bluntness) can be helpful to someone on the spectrum. Everyone is different, but I’ve found that directness is generally appreciated by folks on the spectrum. But the best thing to do is ask specifically about communication. “Support” is too open ended.

      1. Trying to improve*

        Yes, I do ask more specific questions about the work when checking in, just vagued it up for here. But thank you for the reminder! It’s probably helpful to never assume something is an unspoken agreement or understanding in this particular working relationship.

    4. Scotlibrarian*

      I’m autistic, and I train managers in how to manage autistic people. In this situation, you need to be completely direct. To the point that you might feel uncomfortable. So, if it’s the steady stream talking that’s the main issue, say to them, ‘there is an area where you can improve at work. You often talk more than necessary, often repeating yourself, so I sometimes have to interrupt you. In future, i do want to hear your thoughts, but I’d like you to reduce the amount that you repeat yourself. Is that something you can do, or will you need some coaching for that?’.

      With the issue of change, this can be a big issue for autistic people. Giving context for why change is happening can help, as can giving some warning in writing that the change will be happening. If the person continues to talk about how it used to be done, then you can stop them and say, ‘I know that we used to groom llamas with a comb first and then the brush, but customers prefer it/ research shows that brush, then comb is more effective, so that’s what we will do going forward’.

      Be clear, be direct, be open, and be aware that many autistic people don’t know what might help at work as they’ve never been given that type of support before.

  35. groffington III*

    I am very strongly considering, within the next year and a half, leaving my job, moving across the country, and going back to school in an entirely new field (in my thirties!). It’s… a lot. Has anyone done similarly? Any nuggets of wisdom to share?

    1. Elle*

      I’ve done it and strongly feel you should go for it. You might not have the opportunity to do this again and you don’t want to have any regrets. I moved to a city where I knew no one. I found being in school was the ideal way to meet friends and I didn’t feel lonely.

    2. Grey Panther*

      Seconding Elle’s response, groffington III. If it intrigues you, if it feels right, go for it. It’ll open doors you never even thought of. And if you don’t do it, you’ll always wonder what might have happened if you had!
      Best of luck to you.

    3. A Feast of Fools*

      I moved a lot in my 20s and 30s. And I just went back to school in 2015 to finish my Bachelor’s (2018) and get a Master’s (2019) in a new field. I’ll turn 56 this year.

      I am now on my 4th career:
      (1) IT support
      (2) B2B software sales
      (3) Small company owner
      (4) Accounting/Finance

      It’s literally never too late nor are you ever too old to make big changes.

      Nuggets of wisdom:

      The 30-somethings in my classes, both undergrad and grad, were beating themselves up for being “so old” and for not having picked the perfect career path in their late teens/early 20’s. Don’t do that. That’s dumb. Life is a never-ending series of unfolding paths. Step on one and follow it for as long you like, then pick another one. Make the best of paths that you are involuntarily forced to be on.

      Use your maturity to your advantage and get straight A’s. And while you’re memorizing material for tests — because learning something for school is completely different than learning it for yourself — always be thinking about how it could be applied in your future work setting. You’ll get so much more out of school and will be a much more valuable candidate when graduation nears and you start interviewing.

      Also, don’t be afraid to ask a 20-something the correct way to put on and take off a backpack full of books, spirals, and a laptop. :-D

      1. Artemesia*

        I contemplated a very major career change that would have required years of additional schooling in my late 20s and didn’t because I was too old. I am now very old and look back and feel clearly what a fool I was. Life is short; do what you want to do; don’t let the sunk cost fallacy mire you in something that is not your first choice when you have other choices.

        1. A Feast of Fools*

          In Junior High, one of the girls’ coaches, Coach Barley, sat us down and told us a story:

          When she was in college, she visited a friend at her friend’s mom’s house. The mom said something about how she had always wanted to go to college but, well, women were expected to become housewives and mothers straight out of high school back in her day. And, besides, she would be — gasp! — 45 years old after four years of school!

          Coach Barley said, “Well, how old would you be in 4 years if you *didn’t* go back to school?”

    4. Anonymous Luddite*

      Well, the year I turned 30, I moved to the coast on the promise of a place to stay and started a new career.
      My first day on my first job was September 10, 2001.
      Suffice to say, things changed shortly thereafter and they haven’t stopped changing in the 20 years since. But in a sense, they’ve never stopped changing ever. People continue to take chances and grow and change. Why not?

    5. Law Student*

      I have! I moved home to the East Coast from the Midwest in my early thirties to go to law school.

      I’ll be honest (I wish someone had been honest with me)—it was a mixed bag of an experience. It was absolutely the right call for my professional development, but being back in school again was more of an adjustment than I expected. It was an adjustment life-style wise because I went from making a good living to making no money for multiple years. I made a few friends but had trouble fitting in with my classmates generally because my life experiences were so different from the 22-26 year olds around me. I wouldn’t necessarily count on school being a satisfying social outlet.

      I also wasn’t able to hang out with my friends outside school as much because I couldn’t afford things like vacations and dinners out that we normally did and had a much more demanding schedule.

      I’m on the other side of it now and it was the right call for a lot of reasons and it will pay off professionally and financially, but it was harder in the moment than I expected.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        I agree with a lot of this. I’m a grad student in my late twenties, who started grad school after a few years of post-college work, so I was in the middle age-wise in terms of my entering cohort, where people were straight out of undergrad up through early/mid-thirties).

        Definitely consider lifestyle changes that will need to be made to keep up with the (likely) pay cut and (potential) financial cost; do your due diligence of looking into options for funded programs or assistantships/fellowships that will cover some/all of the cost, and be realistic about the cost of living in the new location (this is advice for anyone considering grad school, tbh, but especially for 30-somethings who don’t want to be living off ramen).

        Consider the potential new location and how you’ll feel making new friends etc. in a new place, and like Law Student said, don’t rely on grad school for being able to make connections (but don’t discount it, either! I’m friends with other students who are older/younger than I am!). But if you would feel confident in your ability to make social connections if you moved across the country for a new job, there’s no reason why moving for grad school would be any different.

        If anything, there are also downsides to starting grad school immediately post-college; I sensed a maturity gap with the 22 year olds even just compared to myself only a few years out from college, and definitely compared to the older students. They treated grad school similarly to college at first, pulling all-nighters and getting drunk at social gatherings, etc (#NotAll22YearOlds! But some.). I felt like I had a much more reasonable work-life balance, and the ability to have a drink or two while socializing without getting wasted every time.

        Basically, if you want to start over in a new field, and grad school will help you get there, I wouldn’t worry about your age being the problem. But I *would* consider all the other parts of life (friends, living expenses, etc.) and how grad school in a new place would affect *those.*

        1. Law Student*

          Exactly! I don’t want to make it sound like I couldn’t make friends with people older or younger than me—I absolutely could and did. But, like fueled by coffee said, there’s a different approach to grad school at 22 than at 28 or 32 or older and I often found that the younger members of my cohort were looking for different things from the experience than I was and that made relating to each other outside the classroom more difficult than I anticipated.

    6. The teapots are on fire*

      I went to Med school in my early 40’s and rarely regret it (really only when I have burnout).

      My advice: really talk to people in the field you want to enter and make sure you know what you are getting into. I did some shadowing and volunteering and had some very candid conversations with people.

      Know the job outlook and search for factors that may make it change for the worse. I was a librarian before I was a doctor and the job market tanked in the 18 months I was in library school because the projected mass retirements did not materialize.

      Learn to frugal, and frugal HARD to help maximize your savings now and minimize your expenses during training. It’s very pleasant to know, when you snap your bumper in half by catching the corner on a frozen pile of leaves while backing out of the driveway that a new to you junkyard bumper won’t beak the bank.

    7. Pop*

      My mom got her master’s and pivoted (to an adjacent field) at 50! It has been a great fit for her. She knew that she couldn’t stay with her previous field until she retired. I’m closer to your age, and have had friends make similar decisions. Honestly, the biggest consideration for me would be financial. Do you have to take on a lot of debt? What are the real, actual salaries and chances of getting a job in your new field? If this is a chance to get a master’s in something that you’re passionate about, but carries a lot of debt – I’m thinking museums, library science, trying to do an academia career track in the social sciences – it would not be a good fit for me. There are so many people passionate about these fields and really low wages. My friend did something similar and now she and her girlfriend are facing $100k of student debt while wanting to live in a place that they love (hard to do when your job is so niche), trying to buy a house, thinking about having a baby. I have several friends crushed by student debt because they followed their passion and were optimistic about their job prospects, but are now making entry-level wages instead of wages for being 7-10 years into their career. Only you can decide if it’s worth it! And maybe you’re making the leap to a stable and/or well-paying field, in which case I would say go for it!

    8. Teal Fish*

      Also in my 30s. Personally I was raised on a steady stream of “follow your passion” and I drank it up. Throughout all my 20s I would evaluate every opportunity like “but is this my one true passion? is this what I want to do for the rest of my life? is this WHO I AM?”

      Well. Eventually I realized I needed to stop tying my identity so strongly to my job. And I realized life is long and there are a lot of things I want to do. In my latest job search, I was able to approach it like “this is what I want to do NEXT and I could see myself doing it for a few years.” That felt like a much lower pressure and healthier way to approach it.

      My advice would be to reduce any pressure you might have of thinking you need to do this next thing forever, and also reduce any guilt you might have about not discovering it sooner. Just evaluate whether it sounds good to do NEXT, and what kinds of options you might have 3-5 years from now if you do it.

  36. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

    I need reference help! I’ve been in my current job for 2.5 years and am looking to move full-time into something that is currently about 10% of my job. The only references I have that I still have the contact info for are from my two internships in college, the first of which was 6 years ago at this point (2016 was 6 years ago!!!), and the other one was 5 years ago. I sent out an email to my two references – the one from my second internship responded right away, but the one from my first internship hasn’t responded. Again, it’s been 6 years, and I haven’t been exactly super communicative with him in the past, so I would totally understand if he doesn’t feel comfortable giving me a reference or barely remembers me. The issue is that I’m out of references! I’m obviously extremely hesitant about going to my current boss as a reference, though I don’t think he’d necessarily push me out. But I’m having trouble digging up other people to use as professional references. I was a president of a club in college, and could maybe ask the director of that club, but he’s also a friend of mine so that reference might be understandably discarded for being biased. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Any ideas are appreciated.

    1. worker bee*

      What were you doing 2.5 years ago, no reference there? No colleagues you’ve done projects with, or barring that, colleagues from other workplaces you’ve collaborated with for conference presentations, etc?

      1. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

        2.5 years ago, I had the two internships, plus the enail for the Ph.D student I had been TA’ing for. And the email for that Ph. D student has been disabled so I’m guessing she graduated? But I don’t have a way to contact her otherwise. And this is my first job out of college so I don’t have other workplaces.

        1. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

          Projects are a good idea, though – I could ask the folks I worked with on my Capstone in college, but they’d be mostly peer references and are also friends of mine, so might also be discarded for being biased.

        2. fueled by coffee*

          I’m a bit murky on the timeline: you’ve been in your current job, which is your first out of college, for 2.5 years, but out of school for 5 years (or did you graduate 2.5ish years ago but haven’t had work experience other than your current job in 5 years?)? Did you do any volunteer etc. work during the intervening 2.5 years?

          In any case, can you get in touch with the Director of Graduate studies in the department you TA-ed for and ask if they have updated contact info for the former PhD student? Her (former) advisor might know how to get in touch with her, and then you can ask about a reference. I wouldn’t use peers from college, but former professors in classes you did well in senior year, or faculty advisors for student groups you were involved with, might also be an option, assuming we’re talking about the last few years.

          1. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

            Yeah, I graduated in 2019. My last internship was in 2017, which was during my 3rd year of college. (I was in a 5-year program). And I didn’t do any work in the field I’m working in between my last internship and my current job – I was dealing with some medical stuff and trying to stay on top of my schoolwork.

            That’s a good idea – I will definitely reach out to the Graduate Studies folks at my school. I’ll see what I can do about getting in touch with former professors, as well. Thanks for the help!

            1. fueled by coffee*

              Oh, if you only graduated in 2019, that’s definitely recent enough for using former professors as references (especially since you’ve only had one job since then, and many people are understandably hesitant to tip off a current employer that they’re searching)!

              For professors, it can help if you can send them, for example, a copy of their comments on a paper or project (was there a professor who supervised your Capstone project? That might be a good choice) as a reminder of what they thought of your work at the time so that they have an idea of what to comment on if called to give a reference.

              With graduate studies, the overall university admin will likely have no idea how to get in touch with a former student (unless your alma mater is unusually small), but faculty in the former student’s department might know, or at least might know where she ended up working after graduation so you can find her that way. My department (like many) has a professor who is assigned as the “Director of Graduate Studies” whose job is to manage administrative issues concerning graduate students in the department, and they can serve as a point person for things like this.

    2. Ashley*

      Do you have a co-worker or anyone who left the company while you have worked there?
      Also if you work with people outside the company that may work depending on the role. (Say you are in sales, one of your customers might be able to serve as a reference.)

      1. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

        No one on my team has left the company since I started, and I exclusively work with folks inside the company. But I’ll keep thinking along those lines.

  37. Kiwi*

    How do you deal with burnout if you can’t take a break? I started this job 2 months ago, didnt get time between old and new, and the PTO i had so far I used cuz i got COVID. I can’t tell if I don’t like newjob or if i’m just completely fried out, but there’s no way to get a break.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      Are you working 40 hours per week, no more? If that’s the case, TOTALLY shut off at 5 and over the weekends. If you can, nap on the weekends. Take hot baths. Exercise. Yoga. Go to bed by 10pm every night. Eat healthy food.

      I just got through vicious burnout from Old Toxic Job, plus Covid and some injuries in my time in between OTJ and New Nice Job (so the time in between jobs was basically sick time). It took about 6 months of me doing not much more than work only as much as I needed to and taking really, REALLY good care of myself. I put myself #1 and that was how I got through it. In December it was like I got my brain and energy back!
      But don’t feel bad if you spend an hour (or more! Just make sure you sleep) at night playing solitaire or watching cat videos. Let your brain have a break!

    2. Purple Cat*

      Can you take an unpaid day off? Or at least a Friday afternoon so you can extend your weekend and plan something fun for yourself to recharge? Or plan absolutely nothing to recharge?

    3. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      Maybe take the pressure off trying to decide either way in a sense could help – like maybe give yourself a couple of months (winter is hard, post covid is hard, being in a new job is hard), ymmv – for me I like to know what my situation is and why I’m feeling a certain way but that takes extra bandwidth I don’t have at the mo. I also find any organic thing – daylight, plants, borrowing a pet (last one hasn’t materialised yet sigh) really helps in energising me in ways sleep is not. Good luck OP.

  38. Chef no more*

    I need work ideas, please!
    I’m a chef/prep chef and due to nerve problems in my hands my doctors have recommended that I stop, or the damage will be permanent.
    So careers where I will not be using my hands? I have no idea.

    1. Harriet J*

      Could you teach food preparation? Some school district (including mine) still have cooking classes.
      If you went to a culinary program, perhaps they have a career counseling office.
      So sorry that you have to deal with this. Best of luck

    2. Anon for This*

      Is it because of the force required to chop? I am wondering if you could still type. If so, a host of things come to mind. Food critic. Food regulation, inspection, oversight (likely would need to write reports). If you are willing to go back to school, maybe become a nutritionist or dietitian?

      So sorry to hear about your problem. Hope all goes well for you.

      1. JustaTech*

        Health department inspector might be a good choice (there is report writing but also a lot of driving around and looking in kitchens, so it’s not 8 hours of typing a day, 5 days a week).

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Marketing for a restaurant group? Working for a meal service brand? That’s if you want to stay in the food world. I worked in cooking retail for a bit for a store that also did demos and classes.

    4. pancakes*

      I’ve recommended it a couple times here, but have a look at goodfoodjobs dot com. In terms of job openings it’s better for some areas than others, but there’s also a pretty good Resources section.

    6. Lady_Lessa*

      Once source of ideas might be your local community college career center. In Ohio, the services were free because I lived in the area.

      I would also consider getting some help from either an occupational therapist or a physical therapist, especially one that deals with hands.

    7. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      I had RSI a few years ago (literally performing the same actions on a computer 8-9 hours a day) – I needed to change my role because of nerve aggravation where I was told this would eventually lead to damage. I was able to continue in an admin role as there are many jobs where the actions performed in a day are not so repetitive and these breaks are enough to ensure my nerves are not aggravated. In your situation are there any occupational therapists that can advise you on what actions you may be able to do still with your hands? Also postural issues in my mid back and shoulders were actually causing issues in my hand/wrist area. Just in case its worth investigating different avenues as I found I was sent to many different specialists and it took a fair bit of time to really find a way round that worked for me if this helps. All the best OP.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My father in law switched to corporate catering management. Specifically, he did everything for a factory cafeteria *except* cook and clean. (And a 24/7 production line feeds a lot of people.)
      He designed the menus, set the budgets, handled schedules, hired & trained staff, monitored inventory and ordered new supplies. All this tasks that chefs have no time to do when wearing their whites. He liked the stability compared to running a restaurant: regular hours, no weekends, and health insurance.

  39. Salary Range Bait & Switch*

    I’m sure this has come up before, but do you any of you have experience with negotiating salary for a job when the job posting’s salary range was massive? I applied for a job with a 50k range (I live in Colorado), which is insane but made sense to me in my field because experience and having additional degrees could feasibly cover the whole range. I ended up getting an offer a lot sooner than I expected — I thought I’d have one more interview where I could ask about salary, etc. Despite being really obviously excited about my candidacy and the work product I had to submit as part of the interviewing process, their offer was at the absolute lowest end of their posted salary range. In my current job, I make 45k more than what they offered–meaning I make closer to the higher end of their pay range. I’m willing to take a pay cut for this position for a lot of reasons I won’t go into (mainly that I think I’d really enjoy the job and like it infinitely more than what I’m currently doing), but not a 50k pay cut! That’s ridiculous when it’s not a massive industry switch or wouldn’t be a huge change in work/life balance or other benefits. I’ve already started the negotiating process, but curious to see if any of you have had something similar happen.

    1. 867-5309*

      I wonder if we will see more and more of this – ridiculous ranges – as employers are required by law to list salaries. They don’t want to risk turning off candidates with lots of experience or get locked into paying a high salary.

      1. Salary Range Bait & Switch*

        Yeah, I live in Colorado where it’s required, and I see it all the time. Sometimes it’s really obviously a scam, but this company literally advises other companies on HR matters, etc. so I thought they were more likely not to be doing that, and I do think the range they provided could feasibly cover a lot of different people applying.

        Assuming they don’t come up on salary enough and I don’t take the job, I’m going to be extremely cautious about this in the future when applying for jobs. I’ll probably not even do an interview until I clear sense of how they come up with that range and what the real range for someone with my experience would be.

        1. Fikly*

          Maybe I’ve been burned too many times, but in my experience, being an expert in advising companies on HR matters means they are more likely to be pulling a scam.

    2. BRR*

      It sounds like it might not apply to your field but whenever I see a huge range I just assume the offer will be on the lower end. Usually the job is in a pay band structure and the only people who get to the top are people who have been in their job for decades and I guess there were some good raises in the past (I’ve never seen raises match what they raise the pay band but I’m drifting away from your question). I’ve seen policies that limit offers to under the 25% quartile or sometimes 50%. And I’m not sure what salary range you’re looking in but $50K is a huge range unless you’re well into the six figures. All that being said, it sounds like they lowballed you by a fair amount.

      TL;DR always assume it’ll be on the lower end

  40. *odd name!**

    I’ve been with my current team for over 5 years. My manager has recently changed how she pronounces my name, out of the blue! Granted I do have a name that can be pronounced in different ways. But it’s odd, and I think I’m reading into it too much. Should I call her out on it? Leave it? What are your thoughts on this?

    1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      Ask about it! She could now have someone in her personal life who pronounces the name that way. This could simply be her getting some wires crossed, but I bet she would like to know she’s doing this!

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Yes, correct her. This is odd, but perhaps she recently met someone else with the same name and it is interfering? Your name is important and her getting it wrong – particularly if she used to pronounce it right – is a problem.

    3. pcake*

      We have family members and close friends who do this with my husband, and they’ve all known him for over 20 years. I have no idea why they suddenly start using a variety of different pronunciations for his name after years of getting it right and hearing me say it correctly. I asked a couple people why the change, and they didn’t know. They obviously really like him – they speak well of him, never forget his birthday, get him thoughtful holiday gifts, and they always include him in everything.

      I guess my point is, it may not mean anything. If you really want to know, you could courteously ask why she is suddenly pronouncing your name differently after all this time.

    4. worker bee*

      I would want to be corrected! Honestly sometimes my brain just short-circuits on how things are spelled or pronounced and they might not realize they switched it up, or perhaps they met someone else with that pronunciation and thought they’d been saying yours wrong all along. I also have an easy to mess up name and almost never has it been mispronounced with malice, and I don’t think anyone has ever not been grateful to be corrected.

    5. Oh No She Di'int*

      Yes, you should bring it to her attention. And based on what you’ve shared here, I don’t think you have to think of it as “calling her out” on it. You’re just bringing it to her attention. It could be that she thinks she had it wrong all these years, and now has it right. (As in, someone pulled her aside and said, “You know it’s MEE-gan, not MAY-gan” but they were wrong.)

    6. coffee is my friend*

      Someone else could have told her she was saying it wrong….this happened to a colleague. We know because the chair ‘corrected’ the rest of the team telling us that so and so (not the colleague) had corrected them. We then double checked with our colleague who assured us we’d been right to begin with.

    7. Artemesia*

      after pronouncing ‘Nina’ correctly for decades, I had a colleague who pronounced it NY,nah and I have had no confidence with Ninas ever since. Bet she met someone recently who pronounces it the other way and her wiring is tangled on it.

    8. Raboot*

      I do think you’re reading too much into it if what you’re reading is anything beyond “she probably met someone who pronounces it the other way”. Don’t “call her out”, simply next time she says your name wrong, mention “by the way, it’s MAIR-ee, not mah-REE” or whatever. And then move right into the response to what she was saying to show that it’s No Big Deal.

  41. Rara Avis*

    I have an upcoming annual “retreat” at work. (Actually it’s an in-service day, as no one has actually retreated anywhere since 25 years ago when the organization was much smaller.) They were hoping to do it in-person, but have decided it’s wiser to go virtual — but are requiring cameras on for the whole 5-hour presentation — because “engagement.” I have pushed back individually. I have looked for coworkers to push back with me. Does anyone know if there’s data out there about Zoom functionality when large groups have cameras on? Anecdotally my experience has been that more cameras = more Zoom crashes, lagging, freezing, etc., but I’m wondering if there’s any actual data. I’ve searched the web without much luck.

    1. 867-5309*

      Others might not agree but, I think your leaders are right. Seeing people’s faces, reactions, etc. DO make a difference on a video call. Our team recently had back-to-back virtual retreat – 8 hours on a day 1, 4 on day two. People turned off their video when they took a break or when the collective group broke but it was lovely to see so many of our colleagues, and feedback from group was overwhelmingly positive.

      1. Rara Avis*

        I very much doubt that the presenter will be scrolling through 300+ faces while she talks to us, and I certainly won’t do that while I’m supposed to be listening to her (and, I hope, looking at her screen share — because 5 hours of a talking head would be a nightmare beyond belief). There are 2 20-minute debrief sessions in the schedule, and I would definitely turn on my camera in the breakout room. Also, aside from this we are fully in-person so I see my coworkers regularly.

    2. Curmudgeon in California*

      If you have bandwidth problems that causes Zoom to crash if the camera is on, let people know. Then they can chose – have video but frequent crashes, or you can just put up a selfie as a user picture and not crash out of the Zoom frequently.

      What I will often do is start the meeting with my camera on, but as soon as people start sharing their screen turn it off. That way there’s less likelihood that anyone’s bandwidth will get overloaded with too much video data. YMMV, of course.

    3. Stoppin' by to chat*

      One option is to wait until day of and have your camera on for maybe the first hour/presentation/whatever comes first. Then turn it off and see if anyone even notices. If so you can say you’re experiencing connectivity issues so turned the camera off to see if that helped. Will there be a chat window or some other way to show you’re engaged without a camera on?

    5. Manchmal*

      With a group that big, I think it is not worth it to push back. When you get over 20 or 25 participants and zoom starts paginating participants, the likelihood is that you’re going to be on page 4 or 5 and no one will be looking at you anyway. I’d also feel free to turn off my camera when I needed to. I mean, what are they going to do?

  42. Dr. Doll*

    Am I being an ass here? I’m at a university on the academic side. In the past few weeks, I’ve received at least 3 calendaring polls for large team meetings with times going to 8pm. These were all from teams/people who do business entrepreneur academics, career training for students, business processes etc., all in the B-school.

    I’ve indicated availability up to 6pm and on two of the polls I put a comment that I was not willing to meet or have my direct report group meeting into the evening. The third time I gave up and didn’t comment.

    I’m wondering if I’m being an ass for feeling resentful and grumpy about this expectation, and thinking that this is NOT the kind of career planning modeling we want to provide for students. Also if it would be *too* snarky to comment that if we’re going to meet until 8pm for the evening birds, could we start at 5am for the morning birds? (Yes, it’s too snarky, I’m not going to.)

    1. CTT*

      I don’t think you’re being an ass, but I also don’t think it’s that egregious. I feel like academia has a much longer period of what constitutes a working day than “normal” jobs – in college and grad school, I had classes and org meetings that were between 6-9, but I never thought that was representative of what my hours would be like once I was working.

    2. Anon for This*

      My son is taking classes in a B-school, and a lot of the classes/meetings are in the evening to allow for people who are currently working to take them. (And at least one of his professors works a day job in business.) I wonder if that might be the reason for the late times?

      1. Dr. Doll*

        No, everyone on these teams is full time faculty & staff. I get the sense it’s because there’s just SO MUCH TO DO and everyone is SO SCHEDULED UP.

        Which is what’s really bothering me – we never, ever, never say “Let’s not.” I’ve literally been laughed at when a huge new project comes up and I say “What things are we not going to do now so that we can do this?”

        1. JelloStapler*

          We’ve been asking that at our higher ed institution for 2 years and we get empty promises and lip service but options never seem to materialize.

    3. HigherEdAdminista*

      You are doing the right thing! In academia, people will often take as much time as you give them. There are times when late work may be necessary, but it is my opinion that these should be isolated incidents. Scheduling meetings at 8:00pm out of habit is just too much.

      It can be hard because people’s schedules fill up with their individual meetings and projects, but if it is important to them, they have to make the meeting or they have to connect with someone after about it.

      It is a terrible model for students, certainly, and you do not want to set the expectation that people are regularly available for work into the evenings. It isn’t that you don’t want to serve students, but I have found over the years that students who are used to staff having a late evening once a week become resentful that the late day isn’t on their preferred day, and also why don’t they come in on Saturdays and Sundays every week, and emails should be answered immediately at all times… it’s just not a good look for administration to be endorsing that expectation.

      1. Artemesia*

        In academia there are lots of times you have to be available late or early — meetings should not be one of them. We are required to be at events for students including events for parents and for those graduating; there are lectures and career events in the evening etc etc. But a regular meeting? Nah.

        1. HigherEdAdminista*

          Exactly! Working a late event here or there, certainly. A regular schmegular meeting… we can pull it together for work hours!

      2. JelloStapler*

        Always my concern when people want to extend hours to be more “available”. No, students also need to learn that services and companies in general have hours and they need to plan accordingly.

    4. Anonying*

      That would have 100% been a no-go at my place. As in, the Dean would have heard about it from about three people who still come to my mind. We stopped faculty meetings at 5p at the latest. Heck to the no.

      Obviously, class meeting times are different and have no bearing on when faculty are generally expected to remain available for doing university business. I taught grad students until 10:15p; I didn’t expect peers to engage in department or school meetings then.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      I’d say it depends partially on whether the folks in the programs tend to be non-traditional students / non-standard hours? I know our b-school has a lot of later work hours due to having a lot of students that work full time, and therefore need classes / support outside of 9-6 timelines. If the folks your meeting with tend to work later shifts normally, I’d treat it more like sharing work with folks in different time zones.

    7. DisneyChannelThis*

      Are people remote and in different timezones? 8PM EST is 5PM PST so that’s my first thought.

      With everything right now I know my place of work is trying to be more flexible on the 9-5 hours. Many people do not have childcare or have to try and force their kid to focus on online school and cant meet as frequently in traditional hours. Sometimes evenings they can work right now.

      If you work with students, and potentially have students attending these meetings please also consider non-traditional students, or part-time students who may have obligations 9-5 as well.

    8. fueled by coffee*

      Nope. The only acceptable reasons for evening meetings are if they involve either:
      1. People in other time zones.
      2. Students or adjunct faculty who have FT jobs during normal business hours.

  43. Jessica Ganschen*

    I posted a few weeks ago about whether I should ask my manager about the timeline for a new FTE position on my team. I did ask him a couple days later, and the answer was basically that, unfortunately, he doesn’t know either. The wheels of business frequently move slowly, and although he and his manager are in favor of creating the position and hiring me for it specifically, it still has to go two or three steps up the chain, until it reaches someone who has the authority to add the position and set a salary for it. With that in mind, I decided not to ask for more specifics about the title, salary, benefits, etc., both because there probably isn’t a firm answer yet, and even if my manager has a rough idea, I don’t want to get my hopes up for however many months it will take. However, I do expect that they’ll be better than what I have now, since I already have good benefits and decent pay through my temp company, and otherwise it wouldn’t make sense for anybody to switch from a temp to FTE.

    1. Gingerbread Gnome*

      I’m rooting for you! Sometimes new positions will take forever to show up (in academia it can literally take years) so I wouldn’t put my life on hold, but if they know you are interested hopefully you will be kept in the loop once they know about timing. If you don’t hear anything in 6 months, I would casually ask again.

  44. university administrator*

    I work in university administration in a high level role. Generally, in order to advance, you have to move to a different university (moving for work has always been part of my university career, so I’m used to it). Right before covid, I moved to start a new job, with plans to stay long term. I haven’t been actively looking for work, but I have a linkedin alert set up to see what kinds of jobs are available mostly because I want to be aware of opportunities that my staff might be applying for. However, this week an opportunity popped up that I am well qualified for at a very well-respected known university on the opposite coast of where I live now. On a whim, I decided to apply and was contacted by the hiring manager yesterday.

    I haven’t been very happy in the city where I’ve been living, and due to covid I have no friends here (I’m single). However, I have friends and family a half day’s drive away so it’s not impossible to see them regularly. I don’t know anyone at the other university, or in that area at all. It’s a great opportunity that would be hard to pass up, but how do I assess whether it’s worth it? This is the first time in 10+ years I’ve questioned whether I should move for work. Covid and being isolated in this city has caused me to prioritize life differently, and now I’m not sure if a great opportunity is a great opportunity. Has anyone else dealt with this? Advice?

    1. Anonying*

      I have higher ed experience but not in administration. My advice is more existential than practical, maybe.

      Would you be disappointed if the hiring manager switched gears and said they were no longer interested? Or, would you feel relieved?

      My spouse and I were preparing for a big, life-changing geographic move and career move. I wasn’t sure about it, as I would have needed to learn a whole new set of regulations for my work in a whole new state, or I would need to go back into higher ed, which would be fine, too. He was a lock for the job and was told to expect to receive the offer and start planning for the transition. Then the hiring manager got a terrible case of COVID and their replacement hired a friend instead of my spouse. I was completely bummed and let down, and it wasn’t until the opportunity was gone that I realized how much I wanted a fresh start.

      Good luck!

    2. HigherEdAdminista*

      In these circumstances, I think the best thing you can do is to think first about your life outside of work. It sounds like you have friends and family close by, but that hasn’t been enough to make the city seem tolerable to you. Is this other area more in line with where you would like to live or does it have a more vibrant community for people to connect, where you could make more friends? Is the climate more to your liking? The political situation in the area?

      I too am at the point where I am prioritizing my life differently. Before COVID, I considered at times going on for a doctoral degree so I could move up, but now… I’m realizing that is off the table. I value my free time too much. I also am realizing commuting is a lot for me. I think about moving closer to my campus, but there are also a lot of benefits to where I live. I like working at home as well, and I know my institution has a goal of ending that. So I am considering if I might leave the field all together to give me what I want my work life to look like.

      Great opportunities are important and I think you should at least follow through with the interview and see what the place is like; it’s possible you won’t like the opportunity once you get a closer look. But I would say the main way to decide if it does look like a good job is to think about how taking it benefits your life more than your career. It might be that you want your life outside of the career to come first now, and that means staying close to friends and family. Or it might mean taking the new job because you want to live in that area and maybe that area has a better scene for singles in your age group (f0r friends or dating, whichever you would like).

      1. university administrator*

        Thank you! This is very helpful. Previously my thought was always, “there are friendly people and things to do everywhere!” But after 2+ years of being mostly isolated, I am worried that this will happen again. I will need to do some reflecting on what life would be like outside of the job, and whether that’s what I want.

        1. HigherEdAdminista*

          You’re very welcome! The isolation is a lot to consider. I have a friend who took a great opportunity job during the first year of the pandemic, thinking that things were going to be better soon. Now they live in a place where they are far from friends, and the politics of the area are not aligned with their own (and therefore neither is the safety), and it’s tough.

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      I’m single and have moved a lot trying to stay employed. But the last time, since I am close to retirement, I have chosen not to move, even though I have an hour + commute 1 way. I just don’t have the emotional energy to start over socially again.

      One thing that you might want to check, if you are thinking about the position is to see if there are people moving in and out of the area. With a number of new-comers it may make it easier to make contact. If you are the only new comer in 15 years, then skip it. The social groups are set in polymer infused concrete.

  45. Ray Gillette*

    Not a question, but I wanted to share a victory here. I was an internal promotion to a team manager position about three years ago from an IC role and have had the specter of the Peter Principle hanging over my head ever since. My own manager is a generally good manager but we’re at a small company and he’s overworked, so he doesn’t give me as much time and direct coaching as either of us would like. This has mostly worked out ok because I manage a small team of good people who need support and encouragement more than anything, but I’m still acutely aware of my own inexperience.

    Well, the other day I got probably the best news I could from my own manager. One of my team had told him that yeah, she could tell I was inexperienced as a manager, but despite that I was still one of the better managers she’s had over the course of her career. Since she said it to my manager and not to me, I know she was being sincere and not just trying to butter me up. It’s not going to stop the anxiety, but it reassures me that my instincts are good and I’m learning from the right sources. So, uh… thanks, Alison, for having this blog!

    3. linger*

      Though, what’s the baseline of comparison? She’s basically said her previous managers were mostly somehow worse than “clearly inexperienced”, which is not exactly a ringing endorsement, and suggests there are Stories. Do you know who might have been included in that set, and does it match what you know of them? (Though, yes, it’s an achievement not to become one of those Stories :-)

  46. hmmm*

    I love my job. No intention of leaving. I have the best team and coworkers one could ask for and honestly think I am at my forever company.

    But…..A friend of mine went through this situation and it got me thinking. If a situation ever came up where I had to leave my current employer (economy, layoffs, restructuring, etc) I think I would do a career change. I volunteer at a non profit, where over the years I have gone from helping out a few hours a week to being in charge soliciting donations for various fundraisers. I really enjoy it. The research, championing for a cause, networking, coming up with ideas.

    For those who are in fundraising for a career, I’m curious how did you get your start? pros? cons? what would you do differently?

    I’m curious as this is so far out of my 9-to-5 job.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Professional fundraiser here! Honestly, it’s a field most people “fall into” by accident. Hardly anyone even knows about it as a career until they get exposed through volunteering, like you!

      There are tons of different facets to the work, everything from soliciting in-kind donations, events, broad written appeals, one-on-one solicitations of major gifts, planned gifts, working with corporate donors, writing grants, the list goes on and on. There are jobs for people who are good at writing, at interpersonal relations, at events, at financial planning – anything you can think of! I got my start through a friend who forcibly recruited me to her small nonprofit when they were hiring. There, I did a lot of in-kind solicitations (asking local restaurants for gift cards or food for events), event sponsorships and event planning, and working with corporate sponsorships. From there I got into major gift fundraising (working with individuals/families who are giving $50k+) in higher ed, and now I’m a development director for a medium size nonprofit overseeing a team doing all of the above. I actually do know quite a few people who started working in fundraising as a second career, whether that was a return to work after raising kids or as a change of pace after leaving another career.

      The pros and cons depend a great deal on the specific organization where you work. Often – but not always – development tends to be a higher paying position than program work in a nonprofit. The pay varies wildly depending on the size and scope of the work; I’ve seen Development Director positions posted anywhere from $60k-$120k in the same city. Depending on the culture of the organization and your specific role, you could be limited to 40 (or 30, or fewer) hours per week or you could be expected to be on email 24/7 with frequent evening and weekend commitments. There are certainly some toxic teams out there, but by and large I’ve found development teams to be the most committed, competent, hard working, and passionate folks out there.

      It’s actually a great time to think about getting into fundraising – there are TONS of open jobs and everyone I know is having a hard time hiring. If you have experience in the work as a volunteer, you’re already qualified for an awful lot of “development coordinator” or “advancement generalist” type roles.

      Let me know if you have any other questions! I never thought this is how I’d spend my career but I honestly love it and wish more people know about this as a career option.

      1. hmmm*

        I so would love to chat with you more! I wish AAM allowed for side bar conversations! My favorite part of volunteering is soliciting in kind donation (the research, figuring out what is needed, researching the best way to get what we need, networking, figuring out how work within an event’s theme). I love seeing it all come together. I’m glad to hear that that there are opportunities in the field.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          That is definitely a super fun part of the job! I never really liked the in-kind part, but I always say that my work is solving problems by figuring out how different puzzle pieces fit together to meet the needs of the institution and the desires of the donor.

          If you were starting an active job search, I’d recommend looking at local job boards as well as the Association for Fundraising Professionals and any large nonprofits you’d want to be part of, to look at their specific job openings to find one that might fit your interests and just see what kind of opportunities are out there. Unfortunately it’s hard to tell from the job title alone what responsibilities will be involved in a particular job; coordinators in particular could be anything including in-kind solicitations, event coordination, annual appeals, data entry, donor relations, or all of the above.

          What region are you in? If you’re in the PNW I have some concrete suggestions on where to start learning more about fundraising jobs in the area!

    2. Mrs. Peaches*

      Like the other commenter said, I fell into fundraising by accident. Specifically, I graduated in the middle of the great recession and took the first job offer I received, client service rep at a nonprofit-focused marketing and agency. Some of my clients were fundraisers and many of my senior colleagues had worked in fundraising. Agency life can be soul-sucking (it was for me) and after I was laid off from my last agency job I decided I wanted to work for a nonprofit. I started in a junior role doing admin and donor communications, but understaffing gave me the opportunity to take on work above my pay grade. I work for a small org where I get to handle all types of fundraising, whereas larger orgs may have differentiated roles (e.g. grant writers, major gift officers).

      Nonprofits vary wildly in every way, so it’s hard to name the general pros and cons. Generally it doesn’t pay as well as the private sector, but development pays better than other nonprofit roles. Also, in my region fundraising tends to be a female-dominated field which seems to correlate with better work-life balance. But again, that depends on the org’s culture which can vary widely. At the director level, you carry the burden of ensuring your org has the funds it needs to operate, so you have to hustle hard and meet goals.

      If the nonprofit you volunteer with has a development committee or general advisory committee, you should look into joining. You’ll learn a lot about the org that way and get a higher-level view of fundraising.

    3. Zee*

      Pros:
      – non-profits tend to have more casual work environments (the exception is if you work for a hospital or university, they tend to be more formal)
      – often have more generous PTO than for-profits, to make up for low pay (but not always – I only get one week at my current job)
      – option to have a job with a lot of variety if you’re at a small org, or a very focused scope if you’re at a large org

      Cons:
      – low pay
      – unrealistic work expectations/understaffed
      – orgs often take advantage of your commitment to the mission to guilt you into staying in a toxic work environment and accept lower pay

  47. Oh No She Di'int*

    Public Service Announcement:

    “ASAP” on its own is an almost completely useless deadline. And the longer the timeframe, the more useless that term becomes. ASAP, under what conditions?

    Here are some ways to make the term more useful:

    • ASAP, even if it means paying Jones and Miller overtime this weekend.
    • ASAP, as long as nobody has to work any overtime.
    • ASAP, even if it means putting aside the high-priority Smith Account.
    • ASAP, but not at the expense of delaying the Smith Account.
    • ASAP, whatever you can accomplish under $10,000.
    • ASAP, and money is no object; spend as much as you need to to get it done immediately.
    • ASAP, meaning no later than February 16th, because we won’t be able to use it after that.
    • ASAP, meaning it becomes less useful over time, but it will still be usable even into April.

    etc.

    ASAP is useless on its own. Please provide supporting details and context.

    1. irene adler*

      ASAP, unless there are details to provide context, is usually written by a SAP.
      Just my opinion.

    2. Anonymous Luddite*

      I love all the qualifiers and wish more people would use them.
      I find it extra amusing because I draw a line between ASAP and “as soon as possible.”
      For me, ASAP carries an extra “drop everything and do this” that the spelled out version doesn’t.

    3. Curmudgeon in California*

      Seriously. If someone says “ASAP” I reflexively ask when they need it by. If they come back with “ASAP” again I ask them if next month is okay, because that’s as soon as I can get to it. This, of course, will trigger “No, I need it by Monday!” I then respond with “Why didn’t you just say that?”

      To me, “ASAP” means “As soon as you can get to it”, which in turn means “After all your regular stuff is done.” If you want it to rearrange my priorities, you need to say that. If you need me to deliver by a certain date/time, then say that.

      I used to have a manager who would want everything “ASAP”. We would go ’round and ’round about when he actually needed it. The kind of work I was doing did not lend well to constant task switching.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I once had to tell Bossman that if everything is ASAP and everything is priority, then everything will get done in due time and nothing is a priority. He’s more judicious with his use of ASAP and priority (we have a 1-10 scale, 1 being “whenever”, 10 being “preferably in the next 5m”) these days.

    4. JelloStapler*

      Some snarky ones:

      ASAP because I now need to cover my ass.
      ASAP because I waited too long.
      ASAP because I had a thought in the shower and need instant gratification.
      ASAP because I’m pulling a power move.
      ASAP because …. well, just because.

      1. Elenna*

        ASAP because I can’t be bothered thinking about how long it’ll take and what can be rearranged in order to figure out a clear deadline.

    5. anonymous73*

      When you have people who owe you reports every week, at the same time every week, so you can consolidate the reports into one giant report to then send it to an upper level manager, and you continually provide actual deadlines to the same people over and over along with reminders multiple times a day and still don’t get the reports, ASAP is more professional than NOW.

    6. tangerineRose*

      That reminds me of the phrase “It doesn’t work.” It’s a start, and I understand why people say it, but as a programmer, I usually need to know specifically *how* it isn’t working. Does it freeze? Does it give the wrong info?

    7. just another bureaucrat*

      I had a couple things this week I had to ask people to do so I tried something like that.

      Lower priority than the Y work but higher than Z.
      Don’t look at this until after you get through X.
      Boss (their direct boss) projects first then this one.

      It was really useful, I still think a couple pushed through other things faster and I should go back to the delayed email, but that’s harder to know when someone’s done with a project or a task. But I’m definitely going to keep doing it for some things.

  48. Anxious Artist*

    Question for other freelancers, especially in the creative industries (arts, writing, publishing, etc).

    I submitted my portfolio to an organization to be a part of a large group project—think something like a group art show in a gallery. In early January, I received an acceptance email for the gallery show that laid out some basic details like deadlines, pay, rights and gave a deadline at the end of January to reply. I replied right away with my acceptance and didn’t hear anything back, and figured they were waiting for the reply deadline to pass to send all participants the full information and final contracts.

    Now we’re close to a week past the original response deadline, and I still haven’t heard anything from the organization. At what point it is acceptable to follow up and ask them when I’ll hear more? I figure they’re just really busy and behind because this is a large organization that works with lots of galleries and artists. But in the past with smaller organizations I’ve always got communications about these type of projects pretty quickly, and it’s hard not to let some imposter syndrome type anxieties creep in about “oh they forgot about you”, “you accidentally received an acceptance” type stuff.

    1. Oh No She Di'int*

      A week doesn’t strike me as all that long. But if it’s making you nervous, just reach out now and ask what you can expect on communications moving forward. I don’t see any downside risk here.

      1. Anxious Artist*

        A big factor in why it’s making me antsy is that the first deadline in March 1st, I don’t want to start work on the project until I have certain information clarified, and because my schedule is packed with other freelance work I’m worried I’ll struggle meeting that deadline if I don’t get everything sorted so I can start soon.

        1. Reba*

          These are all great reasons to reach out and ask for more details (or when you might expect those details)!

    2. Artemesia*

      This just reminded me I am in the same situation with photos submitted to a gallery show. Need to follow up. I am assuming no response means ‘no’, however.

  49. Coenobita*

    I am looking up the costs of training/certificates and this website (for a name-brand, decently well-regarded private U.S. university) says: “Tuition fees for in-state, out-state, and international students are all the same students.” Yeahhhhhh…

    1. Pop*

      I don’t know what you mean by “Yeahhhhhhh….” This is very common. If it’s a well-regarded private university, in my experience most of them don’t offer any sort of in-state or even in-country tuition, it’s just a flat rate. The difference was that my undergrad offered need-based aid, which international students were not eligible for. However, I doubt that would be the case for training or certificates. I think if you’re hoping to get a lower cost for being in-state, you need to look at state schools.

      1. Fabulous*

        I would wager that it’s the sentence structure itself that Coenobita is commenting on. It really makes no sense. Now if it were to say, “Tuition fees for in-state, out-of-state, and international students are all the same” or “Tuition fees are the same for in-state, out-of-state, and international students” it would work, but there’s an erroneous “students” in there.

        1. Pop*

          Oh, that makes sense. Honestly it is not a big deal to see a typo on something so I didn’t even consider that this is what they were talking about.

        2. Coenobita*

          Yes, I just meant the typo! My view is if you are charging nearly $2,000 per credit hour (!) then you should be able to pay someone to proofread your web copy!

          1. FloweryFlowers*

            Really? I don’t see the error. It’s parallel – in-state students, out-of-state students, international students. Not being sarcastic – really don’t understand how it is wrong!

  50. wntrhrbr*

    My partner has 20+ years of progressive experience in her field, including senior and management roles, but she doesn’t have a college degree (or even a single college class). She’s looking to move on from her company, where she’s been internally promoted several times, but is having a really hard time even getting an interview. We think her resume is getting kicked out, either by the job application technology or by actual humans, because pretty much every job at her level includes a BA in the qualifications list.

    She’s had several people look at her resume and cover letters, and her job history and qualifications are pretty stellar.

    Is there anything she can do to try to get around this?

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I think she needs to get a BA. There are so many online/night/weekend program options out there; has she definitively ruled out this option?

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Ugh! I kind of hate to agree with this comment, but I think a lot of companies simply won’t wave the requirement for a college degree.

        Some places may not place such an emphasis, but I think enough do have a hard requirement for a college degree that this will be a hinderance. Maybe leveraging her network where people who know her vouch for her, but some places it will be a no go. If they coded the requirement for a college as mandatory in the application so human is even seeing it. I do think the larger more bureaucratic companies will be the ones most unlikely to wave the requirement.

      2. wntrhrbr*

        Yeah, she would definitely prefer not to, in part because she’s just mad about it, plus enrolling even in a part-time BA program (as opposed to a one-off class) isn’t inexpensive. But I think she might try signing up for a single class and seeing if that helps get around it.

        1. 867-5309*

          1:1 networking might work? Asking people in her network to connect her to others, and explain outright that she’s running into this barrier.

          1. tangerineRose*

            I came here to suggest networking too. A personal recommendation can be great for getting people to look over your resume.

    2. Forkeater*

      Does she have any interest at all? If she enrolls in a program, she could put BA (anticipated grad date XXXX) on her resume which might get around the ATS.

    3. 867-5309*

      This changing but you’re right, it is completely unfair and when organization’s think about DEI, flies in the face of those commitments considering colleague is not possible for everyone.

      Is your partner currently employed? If not and they are active on LinkedIn, they could post this as a compelling topic and earn some attention that way. (I’ve seen others do that and it helped them land a gig.)

    4. Hotdog not dog*

      I have been exactly there, and it is SO frustrating! Eventually I was able to get hired for a job where I knew enough people in the organization that they were able to have the job req adjusted to read BA or minimum 5 years experience. Then I was finally able to get past the ATS. Good luck!

      1. Kat in VA*

        This is especially egregious in federal jobs, where the LCATs (labor categories) require X number of associates, X number of bachelors, and so on.

        I have a HS diploma but roughly 30 years experience in my job (admin, I’m an EA). There are many jobs both private sector and federal where I won’t even make it to a recruiter’s eyes because they require a bachelor’s degree (Narrator’s voice: No, you don’t. Not for an executive assistant position.)

        Like 867-5309 commented, this changing but oh-so-slowly.

  51. Elle Woods*

    Today’s letter about googling a new hire is timely for me. I interviewed this week for a position as a city’s communications specialist. The job is a great match for my skills, includes a lot of variety (no two days are the same), and allows me to develop new initiatives (communication plans, methods, content, etc.). The position reports to the city administrator; she was the individual with whom I interviewed the other day. The interview went pretty well overall.

    One thing stuck out to me though. Both when she escorted me back to her office and when she escorted me to the front door after the interview, the whole energy of the office changed. Prior to her appearing, several employees were chatting with one another and seemed relaxed but as soon as she appeared, you could feel the tension spike. The change was so pronounced that I couldn’t help but wonder what it was all about.

    When I got home, I did a quick Google search on the city administrator. Several results on the first page revealed that two years ago she had been fired from her last job as an administrator because city officials felt that she was not able to effectively do her job. The city had been inundated with complaints from the public, city workers, and county officials about how difficult she was to deal with. She was under contract so she settled with the city for a sizeable sum for her early dismissal. The stories cited that she created a culture of fear and intimidation, was hostile to new information and viewpoints, and had a “solution in search of a problem” mindset.

    Needless to say, it was eye-opening. I have no idea if that’s how this administrator still is, though the way other city employees acted when she was present leads me to believe where there’s smoke, there’s fire. I interviewed in the morning, sent a thank-you note in the afternoon, and should know later today if I will be receiving an offer. Based on what I’ve read about the administrator and the things I noticed around the office during my visit, I will be declining the offer (if I receive one).

    I’m wondering, is my take on this situation wrong? Should I have googled this person? What would you do?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Did you interview with anybody else? I would have asked questions during those interviews about environment, job satisfaction, challenges, individual autonomy, etc.

      And if not, you could certainly ask to have some meetings like that before you accept an offer. If they answer “no” to your request, that might tell you everything you need to hear.

      1. Elle Woods*

        I did not interview with anyone else. I like your suggestion about asking if I can speak to other employees before accepting an offer. I hadn’t thought of that.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t know that it’s wrong to google anyone. Generally I expect my friends not to be google-able. We aren’t big whigs or anything.

      That said I think it is definitely acceptable to google public officials, companies, potential bosses, etc. What you did wasn’t wrong. It was good research. It’s helpful that it supports the vibe you got in person. If the information and vibe conflicted, you would have needed to decide what to put more weight on.

    3. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Being a city administrator is a tough job, and city councils can turn on their administrators overnight for stupid local political reasons. I would definitely try to connect with employees who know/knew her personally to get a better sense of how she manages direct reports. I wouldn’t slam the book shut on this just due to the news stories, or chatty employees shutting up when the boss walks through (um, maybe they shouldn’t be chatting so much?). You also didn’t say how you personally felt about her in the interview, so while guts have been fallible before, your gut feeling about her should be a factor too.

    4. HigherEdAdminista*

      You did the right thing! You saw and felt something off and you looked into it. Based on their reaction, it doesn’t seem that she has changed, and you are just dodging a well-known bullet!

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      As part of my interview prep (or even before applying) I always Google everyone who I will be meeting with and might be working with. That’s just normal — plus, it gives some conversation openers. “I see you worked at Acme Co, did you know Wily Coyote there?” etc. I can’t imagine showing up at an interview without having already looked up everyone, and in this instance, I probably would have brought it up in the interview (remember that you are deciding whether to work for them as well as them deciding whether to hire you). I would have said something like, “I understand that there were some concerns in your previous job, what have you done in this job to ensure similar issues do not arise?” If they bristle and treat the question as a problem, well — that tells you everything you need to know.

    6. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      The best advice a college counselor (of sorts) gave me was “everybody’s Googlable now”. He was absolutely right.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Of course you should google potential bosses! If you have the names, that’s basic interview prep.

      It’s particularly relevant because the thing that made you curious was the obviously tense relationship that exists in the office. And the news stories confirm that she has a history of being a nightmare to work with.

      The letter about dredging up someone’s past misdemeanor conviction and using it to smear them around the office, when it had nothing to do with the new job, is a totally different issue.

    8. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I think the difference between your situation and the other letter was that you had met this person, picked up on signals that indicated you might not like working with her, and *then* you did the online search. The search was triggered by your existing impression, and the search results confirmed what you thought you might be picking up on. The person in the other letter only did their google search out of idle curiosity and seemed to be allowing their google hits to form their first impression of the person, as opposed to getting to know them through interaction.

      Using a google search in tandem with real life impressions is helpful. Searching in a vacuum and forming opinions about a person without giving them a chance to make their own first impression on you is less so.

    9. Chauncy Gardener*

      Of course you should have Googled this person! I Google everyone I interview. It may or may not impact my decisions, based on state laws, but it can give you some interesting info as long as you’re very sure it’s the same person.

  52. Necronomnomnomicon*

    I am married, but I never legally changed my last name. I currently have my married name only on one social media platform. My legal last name is somewhat foreign sounding to a North American, can be mispronounced, and has been mispronounced. But, my married last name is a little more…approachable, I think? Think of it as a Smith or Jones type last name; easy, only one way to pronounce it. I was considering sending out resume’s to jobs with my easier to say married last name, but my maiden name is still my legal name. What are some good ways to navigate this? Or am I just better off putting on my maiden name and hoping I don’t get discriminated against?

    1. londonedit*

      I don’t think you need to worry about it until you come to the point of getting a job offer; then you can just say ‘By the way, Smith is my married name and the one I use for work, but my legal name is Thorsdottir so that’s what you’ll see on my ID/what my references know me as/whatever’. Most companies will have encountered something like that before – I use a different first name from the one that’s on my passport etc, and it’s never been a problem, I’ve just said ‘here’s my passport with my legal name, but could you please make sure my email account is set up with the name I use day to day’.

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        Agreed, I think you’ll be fine. The opposite situation may be more common–plenty of people change their last name legally when they get married, but continue to go by a “maiden” name professionally–but that means it should be something HR is used to. Your situation is also similar to someone putting a nickname or chosen name they go by on applications, even if it’s not their legal first name, which I don’t think would raise eyebrows either.

      2. Kat in VA*

        +1. I use my middle name as my “name”, and my legal first name hasn’t been used against me since the second grade. But since it’s my legal name, it confuses folks to get an email from a return email address of Jane Doe @ company.com and my signature says Susie Doe or whatever.

        Most people, after an initial period of confusion, adapt rather quickly. I don’t see it being any different. Also, #solidarity with the unusual last married name. Mine – while entirely phonetic – is long enough and alliterative enough that folks have a helluva time pronouncing it.

  53. Alice*

    I’m gutted, we just had to cancel a Very Important Meeting because my part of the project wasn’t done. Thing is, the client asked for several substantial changes last week (undoing months of work in some cases) and I said from the start that I was unsure we could meet the Friday deadline. Then on Tuesday she gave me some work to do that was urgent, even though I told her I was still behind with the project, but she wanted the other thing done right away. On Wednesday I told her it was impossible to deliver on Friday with all the changes she requested, and suggested we deliver some partial results and postpone the other changes; she said that was impossible and we needed to have everything done by Friday. She waited until 15 minutes before the meeting before cancelling (with me frantically trying to do as much as I could until then). I’m at a loss with what to do with this person. My manager is supportive but this is ruining my credibility with the 3rd party we’re working with. Any advice that does not involve alcohol or murder?

    1. soup of the day*

      Is the 3rd party different than the client? If so, I would send a matter-of-fact email explaining the situation: “I apologize for the canceled meeting. Client requested several last-minute tasks that pushed back the expected delivery date. I was under the impression that the meeting was proceeding as planned until I got the cancellation notice myself. We’re rescheduling for X date.” Not accusatory, just explanatory.

  54. Need to Quit due to Stress -*

    About 6 months ago, I got a job after staying home for years. I was so desperate for a job, that I didn’t interview the company back. Big mistake. I had minimal training on how to to my job, found out recently that I have job duties I didn’t know about, and at this point I’m so stressed I can’t sleep at night. I found I love working again, but I am absolutely miserable at my current job. I don’t see things changing, and I need to quit for physical and mental health reasons.

    I know I’ll be burning a bridge by leaving so soon after I was hired.

    How would I explain why I left so soon – either in a cover letter or – IF – I get an interview at another company?

      1. Need to Quit due to Stress*

        I could leave it off of my resume, but the on-line application systems I’ve seen have verbiage that all jobs an applicant has held for the last X years have been listed in the application system.

        I don’t know how to get around that.

    2. anonymous73*

      Just tell them that you weren’t provided with all of the information about the job duties before starting and you’ve discovered that it’s not a good fit.

    3. soup of the day*

      I would just say “The actual job duties turned out to be much different than what was listed when I applied. I’m looking for a role more aligned with X.”

  55. A Nonny Mouse*

    I have a campus visit coming up for an academic faculty job, in a social science field at a small liberal arts college. A suit feels like too much (plus I don’t have one, and the visit is in 10 days). When I was finishing my PhD I had a plan – a nice open cardigan and blouse, plus nice pants. Well, I am 30 lbs heavier (thanks, COVID!) and I can’t find the equivalent – everything is too casual or just plain ugly. I am short and plus-sized. Any recommendations for style or sources? Thanks in advance!

    1. Harriet*

      A good quality long skirt (much more forgiving than pants) with the cardigan and blouse? With good jewelry and a nice scarf, you can look professional without looking fussy.

      Good luck!

    2. Anon for This*

      Chico’s. My daughter is a petite plus size and is always able to find something there. They also have their own sizing system so if you haven’t shopped there before you will probably need to go in person. Good luck!

    3. Chidi has a stomach ache*

      Do you have any dresses you feel comfortable in? When I was interviewing for TT jobs, I typically wore a knee-length neutral dress (shift or a-line) with a blazer. If you have Amazon Prime, you may be able to use their Prime Wardrobe to get things quickly, try them on, and see what works best.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Talbots carries nice plus sized professional clothing and so does Lane Bryant. I’ve had good luck getting a nice jacket and then pairing it with a pencil skirt and suiting shell, but your milage will vary. I wouldn’t assume a suit is too much- I’ve been on both sides of the interview panels for positions at small liberal arts colleges and never would have thought a candidate wearing a suit was too formal. I guess my point is, if you can find a suit that fits, maybe go with that? I’ve had decent luck at Macys for plus-sized suits. If you are doing a day long interview with dinner, you may also need a “dinner outfit” depending on the schedule they have planned. Often dinner is the night before or a few hours after the end of the day long interview. Good luck!

      1. Hillary*

        I second Talbots and Chico’s. If you can find a dress/blazer or trouser/blouse/blazer combo you like it won’t be overkill. According to my friends many panels have at least one fuddy-duddy who still thinks formal is required for interviews.

    5. Curmudgeon in California*

      I will second Amazon. However, watch out for Asian sizing – read the reviews on fit especially for plus sizes! (I am plus size and I have gotten burned before that way. Nothing worse that trying on the gorgeous top that is supposedly your size and finding it’s two sizes or more too small.)

      I would not bother with a skirt if you are not very comfortable wearing skirts. While it can be a great look on a female bodied person, if you aren’t comfortable in one it will show. (I’m enby, and I don’t wear skirts.)

    6. kt*

      Universal Standard — I’ve heard good things about the quality and it’s got a range of sizes & fits. It tends toward neutral building blocks for the wardrobe, and you can add a scarf/jewelry/etc for color and additional personality.

      1. Hillary*

        I haven’t been thrilled with Universal Standard’s quality so far (I bought a couple mystery boxes to try their product). It’s ok, but the quality doesn’t always match the price point. A pair of $90 leggings shouldn’t be pilling less than 10 wears in.

        That said, I’ll probably order some of their workwear and see how I like it – work pants are the bane of my existence right now, and at some point I have to stop wearing jeans every hybrid day.

      2. Manchmal*

        I love Universal Standard. When their jeans went on sale for $35 and the t-shirts for $25, I loaded up! I also love the Geneva dress, and I have a blazer with 3/4 length sleeves that is my go-to. At this point, I will only buy winter coats from US. The more professional looking dresses have been more hit-or-miss. The other problems with them for this situation is that their shipping is not that fast. You could not be guaranteed of getting something in on time. I would suggest a dress with a blazer or a structured cardigan. I think both Talbots and J.Jill have had cardigans which read more formal than a sweater.

    7. Academic Librarian Too*

      No one will be looking down so- spend your money on a blazer/jacket, black comfortable pants and a sort of dressy shell or top. Think Eileen Fisher. Be comfortable.

  56. Temporarily Anonymous*

    Hoping to connect with the commenter who goes by the username Sarah*.
    Back on January 7th’s open thread I had commented about taking leave from my job where they were being COVID unsafe and revoking WFH. Sarah had replied that they were soon going to be hiring for an admin position that would be virtual work. We didn’t manage to connect further on that. Sarah, if you see this message would you post a reply and let me know if you are sitill hiring/soon to be hiring? I can pass along contact info if that works.
    Thanks!

  57. Eeyore*

    I’m stressed. We’ve had an employee for the past 3 years and their work just isn’t improving. As a diverse organization, it can take time for folks to get their feet wet, so initially some of the issues seemed like something that would just take some acclimation. Then after a year, we hit COVID and things shifted across the organization, so the work we were doing was less on the ground. As a result, some of the work this staffer was doing wasn’t as visible as it would be in the past. Now, that we’re returning to some normalcy, the issues in their work are more obvious and for the past few months, I’ve been trying to get them up to speed. But, their strategic thought and organization isn’t good. Their instincts aren’t good. There are some things they can do well, but the things they need to handle more significant projects isn’t there and nothing I try seems to help improve things. I had a talk with our HR team and it looks like I have to have a sit down to have a verbal confirmation about improvement (the step before a PIP) and it makes me want to curl up under the covers. I feel like a failure for not being able to fix the situation.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Similar experience here. Does it help to know that having a frank conversation about not meeting expectations (with some examples from recent workflow) at least gets it out on the table? It helped me (as the manager), I felt like I wasn’t conspiring against them in secret. Have the conversation and then send an email confirmation of having had it. You will feel better!

    2. ecnaseener*

      You cannot fix this! You can be honest with the employee so that THEY have all the information they need about what they need to fix. You can help them with some parts of it. But you’re never going to be able to fix it yourself, all you can do is give this person their best chance.

  58. RagingADHD*

    I’m looking for software or app recommendations, for something that I’m sure must exist in some form, but that I’m having trouble finding in a useable form for my needs.

    Here’s what I want it to do: My work is project-based, and each project has a long phase of solo work with a big deliverable at the end. I can flex my work however I need to, as long as I meet the deadline. If I need to adjust the deadline that can be done, but I need to give the project manager advance notice with a reasonable estimate.

    There’s no way to know precisely how long the phase will take, but I can ballpark it: say it will take 120 hours over 6 weeks, for example.

    I rough out a work plan for myself with a margin of error, so I can stay on track. But when unpredictable stuff comes up (like, ya know, omicron, kids home sick, me getting sick, another project blowing up, etc) I have trouble figuring out how much time I’ve lost and how much I can make up before I need an extension.

    What I would like is something that can create a daily agenda that blocks out enough hours for the project work, flowing around existing committments. And that can automatically adjust by adding more hours per day later, or extending the finish date, if a block gets bumped.

    So something like a resource scheduler, but just for me? The time & project management platform my team uses seems like it has this function at the project manager level, but that would change deadlines for everyone (and I don’t have those permissions anyway). Other possibilities I’ve seen look like they are very complicated and intended for large teams.

    I can do it manually with pencil and paper, but with all the crap going on right now that seems like a whole daily project, on top of the project that’s already behind. I’m imagining something that could just automatically update my google calendar.

    Is this a thing, and if so where can I get it?

    1. SofiaDeo*

      I used Dynamic Scheduling with Microsoft Project a while ago. Since it’s older, the cost is much much less than when it was brand new. You would have to spend some ramp up time learning it, and building your project(s) in the Project database, then as the various points change, you input the date/time interruptions and the system readjusts to tell you the new date/times. It’s not a Goggle Calendar thing though, it’s a separate database. But unless you need to somehow use Goggle Calendar with everyone, it might work for you.

    2. Generalist*

      This is a late reply, so you may not see it, but just in case: you might find Airtable useful. It was designed to work for small teams managing workflow, but it’s been adapted by lots of users for various purposes. There are quite a few templates users have shared, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one that would work for you. I think there is a free account level, but even the Pro level is only about $12/month.

  59. voluptuousfire*

    Grr! Had a really good call for a role with the head of TA at a start-up. The role is a really good fit, I liked the head of TA and he likes my energy and experience. I was told he would get back to me later that day or tomorrow, which was early this week. I work in recruiting, so I know timelines for candidates and recruiters are not the same. I also know it sounds like they have a lot on their plate and I’m one of many tasks on their to-do list. I just can’t shake the feeling I’m going to be ghosted or rejected. IME, whenever I’ve been in a situation where the interviewer has the authority to move me forward to the next step, they have. Since they’re the head of TA, they have that authority. The lack of response (IME) usually means it’s a rejection.

    I’m nervous because this call went well and I think it would be a good fit. I’ve had a handful of interviews over the past few months and I’ve either been ghosted, canned rejected, or praised to the skies about my experience and interview and any company I land at is lucky but they went with another candidate and they want to keep in touch for future roles and connect with me on LinkedIn. I seem to make it to the second round but get cut there. I’m frustrated and am tired of the constant rejection. I’m aware of what’s going well and what isn’t and have been calibrating that as I go along but I don’t seem to be able to hit the right note. Luckily I have a job so I can be picky about opportunities but cheese and crackers, man! I’d consider getting to a third interview my next real goal and an offer is just the sweet bonus.

    I just needed to vent. I know I need to keep moving forward until I find that goldilocks role, but wow. I’m excited about this role since it’s the most promising one I’ve seen in a while.

  60. Spicy Tuna*

    How do you deal with the feeling of being behind at work after taking a few days off? I’ve delegated all I can and I still come back to more work than I had before, basically making up the lost hours. Why even take a vacation?

    1. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I completely get where you’re coming from. In my current role, it takes me a whole week to be up to speed again and it’s draining. I’m also one of those people that use every single vacation day every year, even when the time off is all about staying home and reading books – and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

      I was early in my career when I started to notice colleagues I was close to would often say things like “why even take a vacation?” out loud. I’ve always challenged that. Take the time off because, when life is all work-eat-sleep-repeat, your mental state goes downhill fast. Take the time off because you deserve to spend time on the things that matter to you that aren’t work, or even to just rest and don’t do much at all. Take the time off because it’s part of your compensation, and the moment you decide it’s not worth it, only your employer stands to gain from it (as they gain from you overworking when you’re back – if that happens regularly, there may be issues with workload and resourcing they’d do well to look at, and many companies so often don’t).

      When the workload after a holiday gets overwhelming, I have that same conversation with myself. I hope that’s a way of reframing that can help you, too. You deserve time for yourself (or your family, friends, hobbies, everything and everyone you value). I hope you can enjoy as much as you need of it this year :)

      1. tangerineRose*

        I like to take time off partly because I like to have time off, but it also tends to give me more energy when I get back to work.

    2. Fikly*

      You’re doing nothing wrong, your employer is. If you have a position with vacation time, and you do not set it up such that the person can take that time off without creating problems when they come back, they’ve done it wrong, and they are doing that because they aren’t facing the consequences, you are, because you just work more and catch up after.

      Which is to say, until it becomes their problem, they won’t fix it. Not saying you have to make it their problem, but try to understand it’s nothing you’ve done wrong.

      1. retired3*

        At my first job as a manager, my most experienced employee was ready to take her vacation. She looked me in the eye and said, “if there is anything on my desk when I get back, I will quit.” Trained me real quick.

    3. ecnaseener*

      It sucks. One thing that helps a little bit is to pre-emptively block off the day after vacation as a catch-up day, with no meetings, but of course YMMV on whether that’s doable or helpful.

      Agreed with Cookies though that taking vacation is still worth it!

    4. Koala dreams*

      If possible, manage expectations so that people know you are going to be out and won’t give you a lot of work during that time.
      Write a list of the highest priority things to do when you get back instead of trying to do everything at once.
      Remind yourself that it takes a few days to get back into the flow after a holiday and don’t be so hard on yourself.
      If possible, schedule a longer vacation to end in the middle of the week so you can look forward to the weekend (if you have weekends off).

  61. Chidi has a stomach ache*

    Some good news — I have a first round interview for a position I am really interested in at my alma mater. The bad news is, when they invited me to the interview, they gave me the salary band for the hire (which I appreciate!), and it’s lower than I expected. I’m currently earning X, with a cash benefit, on a 10 month contract. This job is a 12 month position, so to match what I’m making now, the new salary should be 1.2X+cash benefit. But the top of their hiring band (which they said has no flexibility) is only 1.15X, which works out to only 1.06(X+cash benefit) of what I’m making now.

    I’m still interested in the job, but I’m nervous about taking a functional step back in salary. It is still more than my current gross salary, though, so I feel like it would be doable if I had a sense that there would be regular compensation growth. Does anyone have any scripts to suggest for asking about how often COL or merit raises are given? Or is that better asked if I get further in the process?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is this a public university? If so, you can probably go to the state civil service website and get a complete data dump of all the salary bands. Heck, you can probably get the actual salary of everyone there. So then compare yourself to someone who you know has been there for 1-5 years and see how the numbers line up.

      1. Chidi has a stomach ache*

        It’s a private university, unfortunately. They do post their general salary bands for grade levels and titles, but the specific issue for this hire seems to be that they are budgeted for “midpoint or below” the salary band for the grade level.

    2. Camelid coordinator*

      I am sorry to say that I doubt there would be regular compensation growth. Even at my well-resourced university, ‘merit increases’ don’t really keep up with increases in the cost of living. You might want to do some asking around about the general range of increases if you know other employees there.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’ve worked at public and private universities and I’ve never seen a COLA of more than 1 or 2%, and no merit increases. That typically isn’t something they offer, though you can certainly ask about it! I would only take the job if you’d be happy to keep the same rate of pay for the foreseeable future.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Having worked for a private university, I would agree with this assessment. The one where I worked have 2% to 3% “merit” increases and no COLA. I still have not come back up to what I made in 2015, but at least now I don’t have to commute.

  62. Amber Rose*

    Some Friday good news: my bonus this year is so absurdly high I’ll be able to pay off our last credit card. It easily triples my last bonus. Husband spit out his drink when I gave him the number.

    And on that note, I’d just like to briefly complain about the RRSP matching pressure. Our company offers RRSP matching to a certain amount, some small percent of what you donate yourself. To enroll in this program you have to sign up for the plan through the same people we have benefits through. And there is A LOT of pressure to sign up. People have called me foolish or stupid for giving up my “free money.”

    I will never sign up. Maybe it’s just decades of being poor, but no tiny amount of free money is worth giving up that much control over my finances. I’ll lose the ability make changes more than once per year. I donate such a tiny amount to mine that my free money would be like, what, $20 a year? And they automatically dump everyone’s bonus into their RRSP. They do it to avoid having to tax it, I understand that. But. You know what’s incredibly pointless? Any kind of significant retirement savings when I’ve got basically a second mortgage worth of debt still. I put a little bit in a privately held one for the tax credit, but that credit is nowhere near as good as a check for several thousand dollars that’s gonna pay off a credit card.

    I’m not effing stupid. I’m a micro manager when it comes to my finances with a long history of reasons to be that way. :<

    1. Happy Gruyere 2022*

      YAHOO!!! We’re waiting for my husband’s first bonus with his new(ish) company. It’ll help with our recent home purchase and installing a fence!

    2. JelloStapler*

      Oh bonuses would be so nice, it’s not a thing in my industry at my level, we barely get COLA – but it would be wonderful.

    3. GOGO*

      I once had a job that had one of those RRSP matching plans. Not only was it a pittance ($500/year on a six figure salary), you had to deposit your money in a specific account to get the match (and it wasn’t with a bank). I politely declined (also to their disbelief!), so I never looked into it further, but most investment accounts charge substantial fees to move or close out. I didn’t want to get locked into an account with a small amount of money with limited investment options, particularly when I already had real investment accounts with the rest of my savings.

    4. Zee*

      I hate the whole concept of an employer match for retirement savings. “We’ll give you more money, but only if you do what we want with it.” Just give me the extra money ffs. Stop being all paternalistic and assuming you know what’s best for my financial situation than I do.

  63. Happy Gruyere 2022*

    Job: Non-profit fundraising
    Question: Do I stay knowing I’m not as skilled in one area, and need time to build the skill in order to get to the 2nd part of the role?
    Job activities: data entry gifts, donor relations re: questions/concerns on gifts, quality checks, reports, database management, analysis.

    I’m not as skilled in data entry and quality check as I am in database analysis (all wrapped up in one job) Of course, one can’t analyze bad data and get good results. So I have to be competent and accurate in the first part in order to have time and enjoy the other part.

    They’ve tried to hire for this position for the past 4 mos without any applications. It’s because they can’t find someone to span the responsibilities of data entry to analysis. They can’t hire (2) people to do half-time for each.

    In talking with my boss, and her with the ED, they’re offering me the opportunity to ‘make my own role’ which in my reality wouldn’t include gifts processing. I’m still not convinced that a significant portion of the role – gifts processing – won’t continue to consume my time. For me to be competent and accurate, I need time to work through the material, review it, process it and then check it. There’s still a lot of manual labor even with online gifts that reports or importing actions won’t/can’t be used.

    Finance isn’t interested in helping with the data entry by integrating QB with our donor database. So it’s all by hand (for example: I data entered $1.5M in holiday funding checks and online gifts between Nov and Dec). There was nothing by head down processing, no reports or analysis for two months, as well as creating thank you/receipts for mail out.

    We’re in the middle of a campaign and launch another one in March. I might have this month to catch up and do some analysis for holidays, but it will be very little.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I guess I’m not understanding the situation – you’re currently doing data entry (which you don’t like/succeed at) but you want to focus on data analysis? So you want to split your job into a new data entry role (and hire for it), and you’d do just analysis?

      If you change your job description to get rid of gift processing, who would do the gift processing? If the answer is anything but “Sally in Team X will take over gift processing effective immediately”, you should expect that you’ll still be doing the majority of the gift processing in the future and keep that in mind as you evaluate whether this is the right role for you.

      1. Happy Gruyere 2022*

        My question was never to suggest splitting the position into two, my question is staying with a position knowing that it’s compromised of 25-50% data entry just for the possibility of analysis if/when I get the time to do it?

        Staying assumes I spend a lot of time trying to streamline processes, if they’re to be found, knowing that much of the data entry tasks will remain on a manual status because they can’t be automated.

        The position is distinctly two positions in one. Few can effectively do the gifts processing (attention to detail) and analysis (evaluation) respectively. The people before me and my predecessor were finance folks so their approach was from finance, not fundraising. My predecessor built the foundation and created the base policies/procedures, but her analysis and evaluation (as touted by the Dev Director) was lacking; they were reports moshed together with no analytical elements.

        They can promise me anything, but I’m still laden with gift processing tedium and manual labor that assumes a lot of time with little towards analysis.

  64. MMM*

    I’m wondering if anyone has any ideas about types of jobs/job titles I could be targeting for my search. Currently, I’m working in an assistant position within higher ed. There isn’t really clear path for advancement, short of moving into a much more front-facing role (fundraising) that I am definitely not interested in. However, I’d also like to move away from admin work. Basically, what sorts of roles could keep me doing ‘background’ work but not just admin-related filing/copying/calendars etc. I can’t say I have any big aspirations towards management, happy to be just in a contributor role.

    Does anyone have a job that sounds like this? Or know of titles that may fit? I’m happy in higher ed but not married to it

    1. Anonying*

      Institutional research usually has at least one support person crunching numbers and helping prepare reports; grant writing usually has a support person helping with submissions; HR assistant (I’ve seen them move into coordinator roles with less clerical stuff); admin specifically for academic affairs/the provost; and Registrar’s office all come to mind. I’d look through your university’s directory and see which people you know, what they’re doing, and if you’d like to do it. I’d also recommend bookmarking the career pages for universities in your area and seeing what comes open. HigherEdJobs and Indeed are good places to look. It’s hard to say specific job titles, because it varies so much, as does the minimum education and experience wanted compared to job duties. It’s a crapshoot. Good luck!

      1. Nesprin*

        For grantwriting the titles include grant officer, sponsored projects relations, contracts officer, compliance officer, etc- there’s a huge need for responsive, talented editors and document- sheepherders. If you’re already in academia, make friends with the grants and contracts office.
        Signed- great grant officers make all the difference.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Maybe like document control type work? It requires you to enforce a set of standards on how documents are managed, organized and accessed. I worked in document control for the land titles office very happily for a few years. I became the master of the micro-fiche, and extremely adept at reading handwriting from the 1800s.

      God, I loved digging around in those old papers, all by myself in the basement. The ultimate loner job lol, although most document control jobs aren’t like that.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      There are TONS of non-front facing roles within the advancement team of a university. Prospect research, grant writing, office management, event management are some I can think of off the top of my head.

    4. soup of the day*

      When I was an admin in higher ed, I worked in the student affairs department and helped with a lot of event planning. The project coordinators were the ones doing the bulk of the work, and it seemed like we were on a similar level in terms of skills and job experience. Actually staffing the events would likely be more front-facing than you’re looking for, but maybe you can find a “project coordinator” position that’s more behind-the-scenes?

  65. Forkeater*

    A new one this week: I was invited to interview for a job I’m very excited about, a high level role at a company I respect that would really help me grow into a new direction. Well, they asked me to sign an NDA in advance of the interview! I guess I can see reasons why, in case anything confidential about the company comes up during my interview, but it was a surprise.

    1. Albeira Dawn*

      I once applied for a facilities internship at an aerospace company and they asked me to sign an NDA before we even talked about when to schedule an interview. I had already accepted an offer when they reached out, but I was sooo tempted to follow through with the process to see what was NDA-worthy.

    2. 867-5309*

      I’ve had to do this before. It’s not common but not unheard of. It also surprised me at the time!

    3. Curmudgeon in California*

      I work in tech. About half of the companies I interview with have an NDA for applicants. It’s not that uncommon.

      Just be sure to give it a good read through so you don’t lock yourself out of working for a competitor or even slightly related company. Not many companies will try to sneak that in, but some will. If they do, that’s a good reason to walk out of the interview.

    4. Chauncy Gardener*

      Yes, pretty standard in a lot of companies/industries. Nothing to worry about.
      Good luck!

  66. Extra anon for discussing leave plans*

    Hi all, I have a question for people who have kids and a co-parent partner and who have had the opportunity to work a reduced schedule for a period of time after returning from continuous parental leave. I’d especially love to hear from people who breastfed and pumped while doing that.
    My husband and I are expecting our first child in late May, and we’re in Massachusetts, which has pretty great paid leave from a US perspective (and pretty terrible from a many other places perspective). For both of our 60 workdays of “bonding leave” (I also get medical leave which is “use it up front or lose it”), we can take them continuously or on a reduced basis over a longer period of time by working a 3 or 4 day a week schedule and being on leave the remaining 1 or 2 days of a five-day workweek.

    For people who have done this — did you try to maximize the time you, your partner and baby were all at home together? Maximize the length of time the baby was with a parent full-time before adding in daycare or a nanny or babysitter? Start on childcare at 3 or 4 months old but minimize the number of days a week the baby was in childcare? Or did you strike a balance, and how did you decide on that balance? How did your choice work out for you? I think we’re going to try to strike a balance between all three, and planning that is intimidating. I’m hoping to breastfeed and pump for as long as is feasible and afaict my workplace is pretty pump-friendly — are there factors I should consider in terms of leave schedule?

    Thanks a billion!

    1. Disco Janet*

      I would talk to some local childcare facilities before making any decisions. Many in our area are only accepting children with a full-time schedule, meaning even if you aren’t using them full-time, you have to pay as if you are. In that situation, taking your leave continuously makes the most financial sense.

      1. Extra anon for discussing leave plans*

        Oh, that’s a really good thing to consider, thanks. We’re leaning towards nannyshare, something we never thought we’d do until the pandemic, but we’ll want to transition to daycare eventually. The daycares I’ve priced out so far say that they offer part-time schedules, but I don’t know if their policies are different right now, since I’ve only looked at websites and not actually contacted places!

    2. anonymath*

      I don’t know if this addresses what you’re thinking about but I’ll share what we did.

      * I (the one giving birth & breastfeeding) was working a job that required evenings several nights a week.
      * Spouse was working in a full-contact healthcare job
      * I took my full leave (3 months) and spouse took 3ish weeks initially. That time was 100% needed; I did have a lot of recovery to go through.
      * At some point during that 3 months of my leave, spouse switched to a 4 day week using intermittent FMLA. So spouse did have a pay cut, but was able to take on regular caretaking.
      * I basically shifted to working afternoon & evening after my leave (no morning meetings). I had a very flexible job, so Wednesdays were like a 10-hour day but other days were a bit shorter. It was also handy because since I started “at lunch” I could feed the kiddo, go to work, pump after four-five hours (when other people were leaving work), then do the evening work, then go home. Earlier I had to pump every 3 hours but that was fine too.
      * We got a nanny to cover 4 days a week in the afternoon, so about 20 hours.

      This covered things until 16? months (spouse on 4 day weeks for about a year, me working afternoon/evening for the same, slightly different summer schedule due to job) and at that point (14 or 16 months?) the daycare ratios shift & everything gets a bit cheaper. Then to daycare.

      1. Extra anon for discussing leave plans*

        Hearing about how other people handled it is extremely helpful, thank you!

    3. Hybrid Mom*

      I second confirming the day care situation where you live, especially because when you can get a slot will play a major roll (many daycares had waitlists pre-COVID, let alone now). My own (pre-COVID) experience was as follow – we lived in NYC at the time, so we each received 12 weeks partially paid by the state. I used all 12 weeks and then worked from home another month with a baby strapped to me. My husband took the first 5 weeks as his industry is old fashioned. I have many friends who did the back to back method to get a full 24 weeks. My insight is as follows, you really need 2 people for the first few weeks. Doubly so if you have a c-section. If you have an non-partner able to stay with you those first few weeks, it is really beneficial to arrange both leaves to cover a full 24 weeks. If you do not have that person available, then I would strongly recommend your partner taking a few weeks right after the birth and the remainder after you run out. As for when to start daycare – that depends on your kid. My son was ready for daycare at 18 weeks, which some kids are and some are not. COVID does not help obviously, as infants now interact with so many fewer strangers which I think makes the daycare transition harder. If you can make a safe bubble with family/friends to allow for maximum interaction, that will help.

    4. Ann Perkins*

      I’m currently pregnant with my third, and this is the first time that my husband (a federal employee) will get the 12 weeks paid parental leave. I’ll second the comment above, it’d be difficult to find a child care arrangement that could be parttime and then go fulltime. I’ve had c-sections and even with that I find I don’t really need my husband home during the day after 1 or 2 weeks. Our plan this time is that we both take off a month, then I’ll be off for the remainder of my 12 week leave, then he’ll take his remaining 8 weeks off to stay home with the baby (older kids will still be in daycare during this time so that’s not a factor). This is going to vary a lot by marriage and family setup, but I don’t particularly want him home the whole 12 weeks off at the same time as me. I like being able to watch my own movies during the day and have the house to myself (and the newborn) for a couple months of quiet. I’ll caveat that with that my babies have so far been pretty relaxed babies who just eat/sleep/poop and don’t cry much so experience will vary!

    5. Purple Cat*

      My husband only had a few weeks PTO, so not the same situation.
      But my advice is:
      – it was super-helpful to have him at one for the first week, definitely would have enjoyed more, but at least I didn’t have a c-section. I think that requires having a second person at-home for longer.
      – DH took another full week off my first week back at work. (Again, full-time, so different than what you’re planning). Getting ME back into the routine of getting back to work without also having to worry about the baby was a huge stress reliever.
      – Otherwise, definitely check out the daycare/nanny situation and if you actually *CAN* get the part-time care you’re looking for. That will impact a lot of things. Then only you can decide where your priorities are in terms of sequential leave or coinciding time. There’s no clear answer.

      My #1 piece of advice for anyone else that is reading. If you are going back to work full-time, do NOT start on a Monday. Go back on a Wednesday at the earliest. 3 days is enough to be absolutely exhausted, no matter how much you may be looking forward to being back at work :)

    6. Rana*

      I had 18 weeks (6 of disability, 12 of bonding) and my husband had 6 weeks of bonding. We took 3 weeks together, then I took another 7 weeks alone, went back for 3 weeks while he took his last 3 weeks alone, then back on leave for the remaining 8 weeks. My goal was to maximize the time before we had to send him to daycare, but definitely needed some time together at the beginning (he had the flexibility to take more upfront if I had needed more help recovering). In retrospect, I don’t think it was as important as I thought it was to keep him out of daycare as long as possible; he would have been fine going earlier. I’m pregnant now, and might choose to take more time together this time around since that time was really fun – I’m thinking maybe of the same 3 weeks together at the beginning but then another 3 weeks together a little later when the baby is a bit more settled/fun.

      I don’t think I would have wanted to go back part time, though. I think you’d probably end up working more than part-time hours since your coworkers would just see you as back from leave and it’s hard to calibrate how much work belongs in a part-time schedule. Also, as PP noted, part-time daycare is a lot harder to come by than full-time, so that’s definitely a consideration.

      As for pumping, I pumped/breastfed for a year and it wasn’t too bad. It’s definitely annoying, though. For me it was relatively easy because I was working from home. Pumping at home is MUCH easier than at work, even if you have a pumping room. I could pump right at my desk so didn’t need to take as much time away. Crucially, I had access to my sink/fridge/supplies in all their normal places, so it made cleanup really easy. I think I would have stopped pumping earlier if I had to lug everything to work and pump in a separate room.

      When to send a child to daycare is a really personal choice, and I think you should leave yourself as much room as possible to delay the decision until you actually have the baby and see how you feel. That may not be possible depending on how early you need to notify your work and if you need to secure an exact daycare start date ahead of time, but if you can I would wait. It’s hard to know what you’ll want ahead of time, and who knows how breastfeeding/pumping will go. There’s not really a bad option – your baby will be fine at daycare at any age, so it just comes down to your personal feelings.

    7. New Mom*

      I had four months and my husband had three weeks. If we were having a second child and we both had 12 weeks, this is how I’d break it up:
      0-4 weeks both take time off
      5-12 mom
      13-20 dad

      With maybe an overlap of mom and dad during week 12.

    8. Extra anon for discussing leave plans*

      A bunch of replies came in while I was elsewhere, so I didn’t reply as I read each one, but these perspectives are helpful, thank you!
      And I’m so sorry to everyone in the situation where one parent only gets a few weeks’ leave. It’s hard enough to juggle with the “generous” leave policies we have here.

    9. Carlottasouffle*

      I had the option to choose how and when I went back to work. I chose to take four months and went back full time from day 1. At the time I went back to work, my first week back was a ramping up week, so not a full-blast amount of work to catch up on right away, thankfully, and it was also still 100% work from home. My husband received 12 weeks of parental leave and had reserved 4 weeks of vacation, so he was able to take four months with the baby, too. So what we did is that the first two weeks after the birth, he was also home and not working with me (super crucial), then for the next 3.5 months, he was working from home and able to help sporadically in the day. Then when I went back to work (from home), he took 3.5 months, and then we had daycare start part-time for the first two weeks and then full time. I think it was great to be able to stack our leaves not only to delay sending our child to daycare and keep him with us, but also it allowed us each to bond and become confident in our caretaking skills.

      Regarding pumping, I switched to exclusively pumping early on and pumped for about a year. I did a ton of reading about pumping, but what worked best for me was to use a wireless pump during the day pumps (like Elvies) and the wired pump at the beginning and end of the day. I pumped mostly working from home, so like others said, that made it easier to have supplies in one place. I pumped a little at work (by then only pumping once or twice at work), and having Elvies made it easier to deal with. Good luck!

  67. Order of the Banana*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to get other teams to do administrative work? My department is split up into ~8 teams, and the team I’m currently on handles a lot of front-line, first point of contact type of cases. Because of this, my team also has to deal with the paperwork that comes with these cases. I think other teams have now kind of associated my team with the admin dumping ground and will ask us to do stuff that is just related enough to our cases that it’s hard to say no, but this causes a lot of build-up. My manager has brought this up to other teams’ attention but it hasn’t done much.

    Any good suggestions on how to send work back to these other teams? (Both in terms of wording in the moment, but also to train them out of this behaviour in the future).

    1. Juneybug*

      You seem well spoken so I don’t think it is your words/language. I think this will be matter of showing the other teams and management the effects absorbing admin tasks has on your team, instead of having “magical words” to be able to push back.

      Few suggestions –
      Have your team members to track their time spent on tasks, especially tasks that are for the other teams. Have your team show how doing the admin work is preventing them from completing high-priority work. After few weeks, you can use this data to show how your team is spending more time on admin tasks vs other teams.

      Ask HR for copies of other team members’ job descriptions. Maybe it’s already written into their tasks but no one has pushed it before.

      Create either a flow chart where each team’s responsibilities start/end or create a list of each team’s responsibilities. For example, your team takes the phone call from a client, gather initial information for the project, and then hands it off to another team. Your team does not schedule follow up emails or meetings after the initial contact.

      Create an additional team under your leadership that does the admin support for all teams.

      Teach your team members how to push back on other team’s requests (canned comments, etc.). Make sure your manager is ok with this approach.

  68. Marion Ravenwood*

    Tl;dr – internal interviews/interviewing over Teams advice please!

    Background: I’ve been in my current job (working in PR for a professional membership body based in the UK) since September 2019. About 18 months ago the organisation went through a restructure, whereby the role between my job and my now-manager’s job was made redundant. Shortly before Christmas, the role was reinstated and I applied for it – it came up a little quicker than I expected, but I figured I had nothing to lose so might as well throw my hat into the ring. I’ve just been offered an interview for the role next week(!) which will take place over Teams as we are still working remotely until the end of February, and the interviewers will be my current boss and grandboss (who will remain the same if I were to get the job).

    However, I’ve never gone for an internal interview before and so I’m not sure how best to prepare for it. I’ve been reading Alison’s internal interview prep guide from a few years back and I’m aware the big thing is ‘treat it like you
    would an external job/don’t act like it’s a formality just because you’re an internal candidate’, but wondering if there’s anything else I need to do that would be different from an external interview, like the type of questions to ask at the end for instance, or if it’s OK to acknowledge the weirdness of being interviewed by the two people in the company who have the most knowledge of what I do on a daily basis (although obviously then proceeding to treat it like a regular interview!).

    And what about the Teams aspect? Again I’m aware I’ll need to dress like I would for a normal interview and possibly edit my background a little, and I plan to do a test run with a friend next week as well to make sure everything looks/works OK. But is there anything I’m forgetting here? I also have a presentation as part of the interview – I’m familiar with screen sharing etc so that’s fine, but not sure if there’s anything additional I need to do to help that run smoothly in this format.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I think your test run/rehearsal plan sounds great. But otherwise I wouldn’t stress too much in this specific situation. They have already decided if they want to hire you into this role; maybe they haven’t articulated it yet to each other, but they both know your strengths and weaknesses already. So think of it this way, you don’t need to wow them with your answers at this particular interview, because you’ve been interviewed the entire time you worked there!

      1. Marion Ravenwood*

        Thanks for the reply!

        I should add that whilst I have been ‘acting up’ into the other role to some degree (because the work didn’t go away despite the fact that there were only two of us not three), I’m pretty sure that there are other candidates being interviewed as my manager has talked about meeting with recruitment agencies etc in wider team meetings. So I’m very much aware that it isn’t a done deal in that regard. And the role would be a big step up for me if I did get it, so I still want to give a good account of myself and reassure my interviewers/managers that I want to build a career within this organisation.

        1. Fran Fine*

          That makes sense. You should absolutely treat this like an external interview and come prepared with a list of all your accomplishments you can speak to. I think your plans for your dress and how you will present in Teams sounds fine. Good luck!

          1. Marion Ravenwood*

            Oh I’m definitely planning to treat it like an external interview and prepping in the same way! I guess it’s more about where the line is for being myself vs being overly detached/stiff/formal – I’m very much aware it’s still an interview but don’t want to come across as a completely different person from the one they see every day, if that makes sense. Just as the best possible version of that person in this context.

  69. Piano Girl*

    I’d like to get some thoughts on something that happened to me this past week.
    I was undergoing a heart stress test in preparation for some upcoming surgery. We were waiting for the cardiologist to arrive (the stress test tech, a head nurse, and two trainees) and were enjoying some chit-chat when one of the trainee nurses starts in about a podcast that has been in the news, and how the government is corrupt, and how she is not vaccinating her son. The head nurse left a few minutes later with the trainee, announcing they needed to get ready for the test. The trainee did not return, the doctor arrived, and they did the test.
    I wasn’t sure what I should have done. She has every right to her opinion, but it struck me as quite unprofessional to have this discussion in front of a patient, especially one who is anxious about the upcoming procedure. The facility that I had the test done is now asking for my review. Do I say something?

    1. Asenath*

      I wouldn’t do anything. I’d assume that the head nurse dealt with the situation since she removed the trainee from contact with the patient, and the trainee did not return. That’s exactly how I’d deal with a trainee who started discussing politics in front of a patient. End the encounter, and deal with the trainee privately, as part of the trainee’s feedback.

      1. pancakes*

        Being anti-vax isn’t “politics” in the same sense as discussing which candidate to support, etc. It has been politicized by extremists but it isn’t in itself political. The virus isn’t, either.

          1. pancakes*

            For me that is a much, much lower concern than someone in a medical setting railing against vaccines. I probably wouldn’t even mention it if that was all she said. Inappropriate, yes, but not a public health issue.

    2. pancakes*

      I would mention it in the review. People being prepped for surgery should not be subjected to ignorant, anti-public health ranting while waiting for a procedure to start. It’s good that the head nurse seems to have handled it as well as possible when it happened, but it shouldn’t have happened in the first place.

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      If it’s the type of review that would be posted publicly, I wouldn’t say anything since it sounds like the head nurse dealt with it appropriately. If it’s private feedback, I would mention it but also say that you appreciated the head nurse’s response in the moment.

      1. pancakes*

        If I found out that there were loudmouth anti-vaxxers at the cancer center I go to for my monthly injection I would be infuriated to find out that it was a known issue that people were trying to keep private. If the facility wants to keep it private that it has people like this on staff it should get rid of them rather than hoping patients don’t say anything about being subjected to diatribes during procedures. That said, the prompts for reviews I get after every visit are used internally, not posted publicly, and I think it would be very unusual to solicit reviews for publication someplace public without making that clear.

    4. Everything Bagel*

      Why not say something? The others in the room clearly knew that she was not behaving professionally in front of you, and that’s why they removed her. Maybe it would help reinforce this if you explain it just as you have here. This is feedback they should hear, and they’re asking you for it.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I would frane it as how much you appreciated the head nurse taking the trainee out of the room when she started ranting antivax propaganda, and properly putting a stop to such inappropriate behavior.

      So you are alerting them about the trainee and giving kudos to the nurse at the same time.

      Unless you thought she should have intervened sooner? In which case you could say that – “I was glad they did this, but wish it had been sooner, because it was making me nervous.”

    6. Girasol*

      I would be tempted to share feedback not over the politics part but because someone airing anti-vax opinions in a medical facility would lead me to wonder about the speaker’s medical judgment. I live with someone immune compromised and we change doctors when we take comments like this as a red flag. Offices where you hear such things tend to be lax in their professional standards. Your doctor’s office seems to have handled this well, but it may be helpful if they can tell their trainee that patients did indeed notice and were concerned.

    7. SofiaDeo*

      I would say something. I worked in hospitals, and unless our “clients” commented on things, administration can only guess at what patients really want. Because when you said “trainee nurse”, it’s not clear if this was a nursing student, or an actual nurse doing hospital/department orientation. The latter would be much much more concerning IMO. Anti-vaxxers who have direct patient contact are a serious infection control concern, let alone the inappropriate discussion of politics at work.

    8. Kat in VA*

      I had a biopsy recently. The nurse helping me to prep let me know she had both shots because she “had to” but had no intention of getting the currently available booster, didn’t live her life “in fear”, thought that masks were “stupid”, and that we should all just get Covid so we’d have “natural immunity”.

      I get it, you have your own ideas. Can you not let me know that you’re not taking precautions outside the hospital and refusing to stay on a vaccine regimen some other time…like…not when you’re swabbing my left boob for a biopsy and YOUR face is less than a foot from MY face? Thaaaaanks.

  70. Sara M*

    First job interview in like 15 years here. Question: Zoom backgrounds. Do I use one or not? (A simple professional one.)

    1. MyDayJobIsTheater*

      Visual quality matters. If you use one, make sure you’re well lit and the background doesn’t flicker. If you’re worried but have a clean/professional wall behind you, that’ll be just fine.

    2. Disco Janet*

      In my opinion, unless they’re super well done they tend to draw attention to themselves and away from you. I prefer to just angle my computer so I have a blank wall behind me.

      1. 867-5309*

        Agree with this! Or if your background is generally neat it is fine, even if that is a bookcase or plants, etc.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Not knowing your computer set up, I’d recommend against. I have a couple of employees who have green auras around them when using artificial backgrounds – it’s very distracting.

    4. just a thought*

      I think it depends on what’s behind you.

      I used one when I lived in a studio and my bed was the view behind my work desk. That just felt weird to have people see my “bedroom” at work or in interviews. I preferred having it blurred or to use a virtual background.

      However, now that I moved to a bigger place and have a blank wall behind be, I don’t use one.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        +1. As long as your background just looks like part of a reasonably clean house (or other room if you’re taking the call from elsewhere) you don’t need to use a special Zoom background. If there’s clutter/a bed/a bookshelf with titles like “How to Embezzle from Your Employer”, you can use a background to cover it up.

    5. voluptuousfire*

      You can do that. Zoom also has backgrounds and I also think you may be able to just blur out the background. I know you can do that with Google Hangouts.

    6. irene adler*

      When someone uses these, the background tends to do strange things to the person using the background.

      Case in point: an instructor used one. Whenever he was not leaning towards his camera, the background would cover up his hair. So he appeared bald when he leaned back- until he moved toward the camera again. The visual ended up being very distracting for me.

    7. mreasy*

      I personally find them distracting because I am trying to figure out if it’s a zoom background or not! For conferences/etc using something with a logo makes sense. Otherwise a plain wall or nice art or even just blur the background.

    8. Angstrom*

      I find the blur to be the least distracting of the Zoom beackgrounds. It also generates the fewest comments.

    9. ecnaseener*

      Depends on the quality of your camera (and maybe other stuff to do with your particular computer, idk) and the software version — on some computers the background works very well and isn’t distracting at all. Test it out and see.

      If you have the version that can blur your background, that’s less distracting than doing a whole background.

    10. OtterB*

      I usually use the blurred background for work and personal meetings. My house is not large, and is cluttered, and finding a place with a blank wall behind me is nearly impossible. If I was having a job interview, I might be able to do it. Maybe.

      Using a background does take a little more bandwidth, so if you have a common problem with freezing or some such in Zoom, you might want to aim for the blank wall instead.

    11. Lady Danbury*

      I had a zoom interview yesterday and used one of their standard backgrounds (the bookshelf one). Got an offer today! I’d highly recommend a practice call with someone to test out your background, sound, etc.

  71. I'm grumpy (and sleepy and...)*

    I need to rant for a moment.

    We were closed yesterday due to the snow and ice storm, and today we were on a delay. I planned to work from home, because IF I could safely get to work, it would be extremely stressful. I’m in a creative field, and everything I do, I can do from home. But nope. If we don’t go in, we have to use leave.

    Now, ordinarily, I do work stuff even on days off. (I know, I know. It’s legal in my particular position, but…) Quarantined after exposure, officially on Covid leave? Still did projects. Isolated, WITH Covid? Never missed a deadline. On vacation, and something needs 3 minutes of my attention? Sure, why not. I use my personal equipment, and things that I’ve produced off the clock, for work. I bring projects home because my personal computer will do things my office computer won’t, so that I can provide a more polished (public-facing) product — and I do it on my own time. I’ve expanded my skills and thereby introduced new products that a) the company never previously had and b) go far beyond my job description. And I’ve enjoyed it, because they gave me autonomy to explore and develop those skills and projects.

    But I can’t work from home when roads are hazardous? Oh, no. I’m done. I’m not leaving; I love the work. And I’ll keep working to improve our product. But working off hours, and a lot of the other described above? Hmph. It’s not about the leave. We have generous leave, and I honestly don’t think I COULD use all my leave. It’s the principle. If they can’t be a little flexible for me, why should I go *so far* beyond for them? And it’s fine for them to have a boundary — but starting today, I’m going to work on having boundaries, too.

    Rant over. Thank you for listening.

    1. HigherEdAdminista*

      Good for you! There is a saying, do not cross the ocean for people who would not cross a puddle for you. Flexibility should work both ways and you have done so much for them, but they won’t do it for you? Then nope.

      I hope you took a leave day today and will do zero work.

      1. I'm grumpy (and sleepy and...)*

        Oh yes! I’m on leave and not even checking email, which is I *never* ignore. (This is SO HARD, but I’m working on it! lol)

  72. kicking_k*

    How do you lower the pressure when you’re the only one who does what you do? I work for a fairly large organization and I’m the only person in my specialisation. Recently a large, legally mandated and time bound task landed in my lap, and although I have help, there’s a large amount that I can’t practically delegate. I’ve found this very stressful because although I’ve done things like it before, it was when I wasn’t a lone operative. I can’t work harder than I am doing. Other people keep telling me to relax, it’ll get done – but they don’t actually know that it will!

    1. Teal Fish*

      I’m late to the party so I don’t know if you will see this, but I’d say talk to your boss and basically tell them what you said here. I would break this problem into two phases–first, just getting this specific mandatory project done and whatever you need in order to do that. For example, if you’re working on other things at the same time as this mandatory project, tell your boss you need to stop and focus 100% on the big project or it won’t get done.

      Phase Two happens once the big project is over. This is the time for the bigger picture conversation. Address the pattern with your boss and discuss what you can do together to make the process run more smoothly for future projects. Do you need additional training? Additional hands on deck? Ideally come with a few suggestions ready and pitch them to your boss as ideas / innovations on the current process, and articulate how the new process will improve the metrics your boss cares about.

  73. Miss Ish*

    This is kind of a rant but also sort of looking for advice. I am a govt contractor in sort of a middle-management position for roles that basically do teapot executive correspondence. I lead a team of teapot analysts and my primary job is to review correspondence and other documents prepared by the analysts before they are passed along to the next level, but also do some teapot analysis of my own; I am one of several team leads/managers and we report to the same person but semi-informally.

    One of my analysts (let’s call him Bob) has worked in our department for about 6 years now. For context, he applied for the job I was initially hired for (Teapot Analyst) and when I was promoted to Interim Teapot Reviewer (along with two other Analysts in other departments), he was promoted from Teapot Processor to Teapot Analyst. I have since been promoted again to Teapot Manager (so two promotions in 3 years). Bob has recently seemed dissatisfied with his position, and I was told he went to another lead to request a promotion and/or pay increase — neither of which are handled at that level, so kind of strange to make the request. Bob has also directly asked me if he can train new hires and have more responsibility (again, something I can’t make the call for on my own).

    I would normally be happy to see someone taking the initiative, but Bob is not a reliable analyst. He makes frequent errors and although making errors is pretty normal and ok in this line of work, these are the same problems repeatedly. He does not take the initiative when it comes to research and prefers to ask someone else questions rather than put in elbow grease and seems to completely forget concepts and resources I know he has been shown before. Bob snarks at another manager, generally has a bad attitude toward work and his fellow analysts, but also has a high opinion of his own work quality and output. We are starting a new program to measure metrics, and even a few days in I can already tell Bob’s output is significantly lower than everyone else’s despite having “seniority” in terms of being in the environment longest.

    All this being said, while I have been told by my boss that I actually have the ability to terminate Bob, I don’t think that’s a good idea as it would be nearly impossible to find someone to replace him as the clearance process takes so long, plus getting someone up to speed on the basics of the job takes months. I also know Bob will not take constructive feedback well (I am not upset by this, just stating a fact), but since my promotion I am responsible for annual reviews for this team.

    I guess the question is: how do I deal with this attitude and poor work quality in someone I cannot fire but also cannot eventually reward with things like a promotion or pay increase? I feel that Bob does respect me for the most part, but I know anything I bring up will go over like a lead balloon no matter how true it is. Ugh.

    1. The teapots are on fire*

      Fire him for the sake of the rest of the team. No one likes to be on a team with someone like that. It will be hard, but it will be temporary and I promise you are not the only one suffering. You are just the only one who can do something about it.

    2. Purple Cat*

      You CAN fire him. You’ll never replace him with someone better if you never post the position…
      Why would you want to keep on someone who’s not only under-performing, but also has a bad attitude about it.

    3. BRR*

      There’s really no other option than telling him what he needs to improve on or if not you’ll have to let him go. Otherwise you’re telling bob there are really not too many consequences for his actions.

    4. SofiaDeo*

      You have to give him clear, direct consequences for not doing his work properly. Other staff will be affected. Document, document, document. If you have to fire him, so be it. I have had staff straighten out, I have had staff quit/get fired, and one fired person actually came back a year later to see others and commented that her firing was the best thing that happened to her, she got a job more in line with what she wanted to do.
      Your other staff will be more willing to work short staffed, compared to picking up the slack from a slacker. And his negativity/low metrics has zero to do with seniority. Either he does the job and is at least civil if not pleasant, or he needs to go.

    5. AcademiaNut*

      You assign him work knowing that it will be done slowly and poorly (ie, lower workloads and the easier work, and accept that you will need to double check and redo anything that’s wrong), and you make sure that any inconvenience and extra work falls on you, rather than his coworkers. So if the expectation is that one person does 10 teapots a week, and Bob is only capable of doing six, *you* do the extra four, rather than distributing them to other people. Make sure you’re the one who fixes the mistakes, and have him come to you with all the questions he’s unwilling to figure out on his own, and be the one who walks him through processes he should have mastered and deals with his attitudes. Isolate him from his coworkers as much as possible, so all the unpleasantness falls on you rather than others, and let others know that they can redirect him to you at all times.

      If you’re not willing or able to do that, PIP and then firing.

      If you keep someone on who is unproductive and unpleasant, and he gets away with making his coworkers lives harder and more miserable, you’ll end up replacing positions anyways, you’ll just be losing high performers instead of low performers.

  74. Dianna*

    Caveat: I work in education.

    I’ve previously been salaried + stipend, but we have a new administration that last year removed stipends. There’s more salary equity now (yay!), and my salary has gone up on my contract. However, when you look at my W2’s from the past few years, I have a 10k salary *CUT* due to lack of stipends.

    I’m 90% certain my new boss is unaware of this. We are not “allowed” to negotiate salary at contract signings, but would it be out of line to raise this issue/bring my W2’s for proof? I’m currently being asked to commit to more hours next year, and only want to do it if they can raise my salary to what it used to be.

    Thoughts?

    1. Disco Janet*

      Is this a public school? Charter? Private? Do you have a union?

      For me, the answer would be no, you can’t raise this – bring it up to the union as a point of contract negotiations for next year. But it’s going to vary greatly based on exactly where you work.

      What were the stipends for? How did those work? (Could possibly give a better answer with that information.)

    3. Anonie*

      I rarely agree with advice here that says “you can’t discuss pay in education!” Yes, you can. If your boss doesn’t know there is an issue, your boss can’t do anything to solve it, and it leaves you with very few options. I would bring it up to your immediate supervisor, particularly given that s/he’s apparently asking you to work more next year.

      I work in public education and receive a base contract plus two stipends, one for expertise and one for an advanced degree. I am not a teacher. My one peer and I are NOT part of the union, despite technically being on teacher contracts. We are understaffed with a workload that is literally impossible to complete within our contracted days, as in we are both needing to work 10-12 hour days on the weekdays and full 8-9 hour days on the weekends to meet deadlines. I like my job, and I like my boss, but I don’t work for free. We went to our boss and ended up getting permission to get paid for weekend work, which is typical for our position at other districts. If that hadn’t happened, this would have been my last year at my district, full stop, and I might have started to shrug at those deadlines.

      At the end of the day, if my pay was cut to the tune of $10,000, I would not be taking more hours. I would be jumping to a new district for 2022-2023 or out of education altogether. Just because you work in education doesn’t mean this is typical or that you need to accept a pay cut, let alone a pay cut with same or more work.

  75. Disco Janet*

    First time in ages I’ve gotten to post to one of these! (Snow day – usually I have zero time.)

    I’m trying to navigate how cool I can be with a coworker without being unprofessional. I am a high school English teacher, and another teacher in the building (who is not an English teacher) basically tried to get a book I teach banned. Called an after school meeting to share why she thinks the book is so harmful and basically how dare we teach dark topics in English class. She refused to speak to me about her concerns or listen to me share how I handle the difficult parts of the book in class. (I’ve actually experienced the darker parts of the book personally and have discussed my handling of it with our counselors and social worker, so I think I’m pretty thorough and sensitive. Also, this book has been approved by our district’s formal process for books taught in core classes.) The principal ended up forcing her to cancel the meeting and she is on super thin ice. Needless to say, I’m pretty ticked off. She still refuses to speak to me about it.

    It’s getting awkward because when we have trainings or after school meetings, there is a group that usually sits and works together that she and I are both a part of. Well…I really don’t want to work with her on these anymore! I sat elsewhere at the last meeting…and the rest of the group went with me (because they’re super ticked on my behalf and feel that this is not how you handle things – if you have a problem with a colleague’s class, you approach them, you don’t call a meeting and invite the whole school to listen to you criticize that class.) And left her sitting by herself. This makes me uncomfortable because it feels kind of petty/mean girl….but then again, others not wanting to work with her on things is a natural consequence of her actions here. My boss is quite upset with her and doesn’t really care that she is being left out (she has been telling her students how our boss is trying to get her to talk to me about this and is being soooo mean to her because she refuses – the unprofessionalism is just mind blowing.) I suspect she has been put on an improvement plan and that it isn’t going well based comments I’ve overheard from students about what she tells them in class.

    (For the record, I haven’t said anything to my students about it other than that I don’t want any part in gossip, but that if they have a concern about the book, or anything in general, to please let me know. I’m a teacher that students tend to open up to when they’re struggling with mental health, and I have ways they can reach out anonymously if they’re having a problem with the class. I feel strongly that I’m handling my part responsibly.)

    Curious what AAM thinks – do I need to do anything differently here? Or is this a rare instance where excluding someone is justified?

    1. HigherEdAdminista*

      I wouldn’t do anything differently. It sounds like no one, including the administration, wants her to be working there right now. She broke protocol and tried to censor a book behind your back. She is gossiping to students about it. It doesn’t sound like she is someone who made a genuine error or with whom there was a reasonable disagreement, so it isn’t as if you can include her in work she doesn’t agree with. She also refuses to have a discussion with you, so you are respecting that by keeping your distance. It sounds like the right thing to do.

    2. Dasein9*

      This sounds less “mean girl” and more “avoid the terrible co-worker.”

      But, yes, such a situation can look like (or even become) bullying or mobbing if it’s not kept very professional indeed.

      If you trust your boss, this may be worth raising with them. Whoever has evidence that this teacher is discussing the issue with her students should really let them know it’s going on, for the students’ sake. You could also explain that you would like to keep your distance but are also committed to fostering a safe environment for everyone, including this co-worker.

    3. Medical Librarian*

      Sounds like you handled things well. I’m now curious about which book, but maybe sharing would be too revealing.

      1. pancakes*

        This is happening with hundreds of books. This is incredibly widespread in the US at the moment. In a preliminary report last fall the American Library Association said it had received “330 reports of book challenges, each of which can include multiple books,” (quote is from a NYT article titled “Book Ban Efforts Spread Across the U.S.”), and the trend doesn’t appear to have slowed since then at all.

        1. JelloStapler*

          The urge for people to refuse to want to read or learn about anything that might be uncomfortable for them is becoming quite the problem in this country.

        2. JelloStapler*

          I also wonder if the same people who cry censorship if things that are clear misinformation (esp about COVID) are blocked.

        3. Medical Librarian*

          I am very aware of that trend. I was just curious about the title because it’s not generally a co-worker in a school setting objecting to a book.

          1. Librarian of SHIELD*

            I was brought up in the subculture that’s engaging in these banning attempts, and it’s not uncommon for people with those beliefs to go into teaching and library work as an attempt to keep “bad” books away from kids. In fact, when I decided to become a librarian, I was congratulated by a lot of people I knew at the time because they assumed that was why I’d decided on this career. That couldn’t have been farther from the truth, I chose this career because I wanted to expand access to reading materials for my community, but I can envision a person like OP’s coworker who is mired in that belief system, using her position at the school to try to censor access to materials.

          2. pancakes*

            It doesn’t seem to be only parents driving this. The TN school board that unanimously voted to ban Maus, for example, has 10 members. I wouldn’t assume that none of them have an education background.

            1. Disco Janet*

              I wouldn’t be shocked if none of them have an education background. 80% of our school board is made up of parents who show very little understanding of how a school functions, educational research and best practices, etc.

      2. Disco Janet*

        While I’m sure she’d probably recognize the situation from the above post anyways, it does feel a bit too revealing. Though I kind of want to tell you, haha. It’s not Maus!

        The book we read is a popular, frequently recommended choice for modern historical fiction. Despite that, I usually get one parent complaint a year before we even start reading it, and it’s generally rooted in either racism or homophobia with some sexism mixed in (because it says a lot about our culture when a parent doesn’t bat an eye at reading Speak or Handmaid’s Tale, but has immediate concerns when the scene doesn’t involve a female character.)

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      OMG — the fact that she’s complaining to students (STUDENTS!) shows that she is engaging in some extreme and unacceptable behavior. I think she is experiencing the natural consequences of her actions, and that is fine.

    5. Dark Macadamia*

      Her actions here are so outrageous – it sounds like she tried to berate you in front of a group while not allowing you to speak? It would be bad enough for her to object to your approved curriculum just with you or the principal but dragging more people into it – and STUDENTS? – is absolutely wild. It sounds like you’ve remained very professional and calm about the whole thing and your boss is on your side. This is definitely a situation where she makes herself look bad and deals with natural consequences without you needing to do a thing.

      1. Disco Janet*

        Yes – I was invited to come listen to her complaints but would not be permitted to respond, speak, or ask questions. You’re right; it is absolutely wild.

    6. JelloStapler*

      You do what you need and don’t worry about other people’s decisions-whether it be your colleagues who decided to follow you at the training or the BannedBookBrat acting like a drama queen and blaming everyone else. it is very clear that everyone gets what is going on except her (or she gets it and is deflecting in every way she can). Bringing the students into the drama and having them bear her emotional weight is so far past the pale that it really makes me worry about her maturity.

      You are doing what you can to support and challenge your students here, the rest is up to BBB to act like a grown-up or be told to move on.

    7. Academic Librarian Too*

      I feel for you. I am so glad your colleagues are supporting you about this teacher’s outrageous behavior. I had something similar happen to me 3 years ago but it was a peer at another University taking exception to a public exhibit I had collaborated on with a renowned scholar. They rallied a social media mob and made demands for revision of the exhibit, a public apology from me, and a recall of the show catalog. Students reported to me there was enormous pressure in their classes to agree with their point-of-view.
      My administration backed me but it was extremely stressful as I continued to work on committees with this professor.
      I took the “kill with kindness” approach and continued to serve on the committees. I don’t think that “shunning” is the positive approach.
      When anyone supported me, I would acknowledge the person’s point of view with noting I disagreed and referred to the PEN foundation, Comic Defense League and the Freedom to Read Foundation.

    8. RagingADHD*

      There are all kinds of very valid reasons for excluding people. I don’t think it is rare at all, or that it needs a high level of justification. Just right reasons vs wrong reasons.

      Ostracism is the appropriate response to awful, antisocial, destructive behavior. The problem is when it is misdirected, not the mechanism itself.

      These aren’t children on the playground who need a friend bench. This is a grownass adult making terrible decisions and attempting to influence official actions in a way that violates the basic tenets of her profession.

      If you want to reach out to her personally and attempt to repair the relationship, that would be a very gracious thing to do. But the rest of the group avoiding her is just the system working properly.

    9. Momma Bear*

      I’ll be honest – I feel like this is an “actions have consequences” moment. She went nuclear. You moved your seat. Other people chose to move with you. I’d keep being civil but no more than that. I’m guessing from this that she hasn’t seen fit to apologize, either. What I would talk to the principal about is her talking to the students about this because that’s not their problem or concern. She needs to teach, not drag them into her drama. I would have a problem with that.

    10. SofiaDeo*

      You aren’t “excluding someone”, that person is experiencing the consequences of their actions. Uncivil, unprofessional, unkind behavior needs to have consequences or the person will never be motivated to change that behavior. IMO “excluding someone/being mean” is when it’s done for no valid reason, other than to be mean/discriminatory.

  76. Policy Wonk*

    Do it in writing. Send Sally an e-mail “Boss wants to meet with you Monday at 10:00”. cc: the boss. “John, boss would like you to add a chart to this report. He needs it by Tuesday.” cc: the boss.

    It’s unfortunate that it needs to be done that way, but you (and boss) now have the paper trail and – perhaps more importantly for Sally and John, so does the boss.

  77. Lost Food*

    Remember I said I have that manager who loses food for orders. Firs they are very loose about the ticket system and let them pile up and then randomly slap them on the orders. Also she is selling orders to people who order the same thing. Now I am just making 2 or more of the items.

        1. pancakes*

          For an owner, certainly. I would expect a manager would be asked to explain why the cost of ingredients seems to have doubled! This is not sustainable. It sounds like the manager is robbing the place.

  78. H*

    I took sick days on Wednesday and Thursday for my mental health…Wish I had done today as well but didn’t want to be a huge pain. I have a tentative job offer and waiting on the final and over 140 hours of sick time I won’t be compensated for…I know I should feel bad but mostly I feel bad for not taking today as well.

    1. Dasein9*

      H, you look a bit peaked. Maybe you should take a half day this afternoon.

      (Good luck with the job offer!)

    2. TGI(February)*

      I think I could use a reality check. I have a typical office job and don’t feel that I’m really living up to my potential. I struggle with procrastination and motivation when things seem kind of arbitrary. Lately I’ve been wishing I’d gone into a field where there are external factors keeping you busy and engaged – like being a nurse, or maybe a teacher. I assume nurses don’t have to depend on individual gumption to get started because there’s lots of patients with needs, and teachers are actively teaching in a classroom much of the day. I also think that kind of career seems way more useful to society than me pushing paper, particularly given current events. However, training to become an ER nurse in my midthirties seems pretty harebrained and presumably it would take years of schooling before I could even see what it’s really like. Ditto teachers. Are there any jobs that seem like they would fit my parameters that I could get into more quickly?

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      It’s Sunday now. You’re realizing you weren’t ready to come back yet on Friday, you made it worse and you’re going to be out on Monday as well.
      140 hours is three weeks. If the job is making you sick, take a sick day!

  79. Ginger & Lemon*

    Does anyone have any advice/experience in adjusting yearly hour requirements for parental leave? And how did you go about doing it?

    Background: I’m getting ready to tell my boss that I’m having a baby later this year, and I work at a company where I’m salaried but expected to work a certain number of hours throughout the year. The number of hours is roughly based off 40 hour work weeks, minus two weeks vacation and any federal holidays. Despite this number, my boss typically has a “oh, just take off when you need and make it up later” approach to things, and we could, for example, choose to work on every federal holiday and just get those hours back as additional time off. We also could work overtime several weeks and take three weeks off if we could. With parental leave, however, I want to be sure I have a specific (prorated) number so I can work to get ahead of those hours before leave and have a lighter schedule afterwards (FWIW, this type of working extra/taking lighter time is typical throughout the company). No one else at the company has ever taken maternity leave, either because they’ve had kids before joining or don’t plan on having children.

    So, I’d like to have a rough number for reference and to potentially provide to my boss if she tries to step around a requirement. Is the best calculation to take the yearly number and subtract the weeks of leave I have? (total – (40 x weeks of leave)), or to take the total number of hours and prorate it based on the percentage of weeks I’ll be working in that year? Does it matter that my leave would fall over some federal holidays, and can I save up those supposed two weeks vacation to tack on my leave? I’m sure I’m overcomplicating this, but I’d love to know if there’s a standard practice out there!

    1. Enough*

      While I have no experience in parental leave but generally any holidays during leave time are just considered regular days. So if you take the next 3 weeks off and Presidents day is in the middle you don’t get an extra day. Just like if you have requested the day off and then every one gets sent home 2 hours early you don’t get those 2 hours back.

  80. BL 2*

    Long, bear with me plz. I lead a team of 6. We get great results. Two years ago we were given a new director and a lot of the positives in our environment changed (closed communication, sarcastic responses, borderline hostility if questioning him). We also do a survey run by a national corp. two times a year to gauge WE. This April mine came back low. I suspected some of the issues were trickle down due to director, but in an effort to garner real improvement for the group, I asked HR if they would solicit feedback anonymously on how we can make the environment better. HR reached out to team in June. In August, I hadn’t had a response so I asked my manager to follow up with HR (in writing). I still heard nothing. After six months of waiting and wondering how I could help the team (and me), I went to HR’s manager who was apologetic and mortified that in the last six months I hadn’t heard from HR. She promised me this would not affect my performance and that I’d get a response in a day or two. Well, I did, and the responses were pretty rough and some was stuff I could work on and a lot was on director. In any case, I immediately implemented some of the requested changes that were within my control. WE does seem more positive in some respects. Of note, the hierarchy is director to senior leader to leader (me) to individual contributors and my senior leader was moved out of the position starting 2023 and demoted in part bc of his inability to deal with concerns brought to him, such as mine.

    My issue is that it DID affect my performance. Director gave me a “needs improvement” in WE. I’m so furious for a couple of reasons. Prior to his coming in, my team and I were very high performers and our survey results were excellent. I also got ZERO feedback for six months until I requested it (again) and would have had six months to try to implement positive changes. And because I want to transfer to another state to be closer to our family and our co policy is no transfer if any PE has a “needs improvement” section. So the earliest I could transfer would be 2023, provided director doesn’t do this type of thing again.

    Some other points of reference – I am female. A year ago HR investigated him for hostile WE and I know this because they asked me to provide my feedback. I was honest with them about what I’d seen (treating women managers poorly, talking over them, refusing to communicate, openly having favorites on the team, etc.). I have no doubt that he knows I gave this feedback.

    I don’t want to quit. I’ve been here 20 years, I love my team and my job and usually we rotate out directors every three years. This would be his 3rd full year (2022) so if I can deal with this, I may be able to recover my career.

    How do I proceed? Do I go back to HR? We have an anonymous tip line that I don’t feel is anonymous for obvious reasons. I even considered sending my friend in a state far away from me a letter to mail to the Ethics dept on my behalf without naming my name, obviously, to see if someone would investigate him for this type of behavior. I did bring all of the above points up in my PE call and was basically told, oh well, this is what it is going to be rated at.

    I’m stuck, I’m really upset and I can’t start over somewhere else without taking a huge pay cut that would undermine my plan to move anyway. Any ideas would be really helpful.

    1. TGI(February)*

      Hmm, I’m not sure this is helpful but I think you can decide whether your plan is to fight back, or wait it out. I hear a bit of both in your post – he’s only here maybe one more year, but you’re considering reporting it etc. If you want to stay in this role and you’re confident he’s only going to be here another year, I might try to lay low and disengage from work stuff a bit, planning to build back in future – because the risk of getting canned / demoted while he’s in charge may be more than y0u’re willing to take on. Or, if you want to go scorched earth and hope you outlast him, that may be worth it to you. I don’t suppose you could switch departments and get out from under him.

      1. BL 2*

        I think it’s a bit of both. I’d love the “needs improvement” to be gone because it will follow me even if I move. I am also railing at the unfairness I think. The last two directors, I was an exceeds in all categories and then the change happened. It’s obvious he doesn’t care of me (nor I him although I work very hard to never let this show to him or my team). If I had to pick, it’d get someone above him to see this is retaliation and get rid of the “needs improvement”. If that makes sense.

      2. Dasein9*

        Agreed. You may need to decide which direction to go.

        However, even if you plan to wait it out, check with HR and see if you can appeal the “needs improvement,” since:
        1. You received assurances that the feedback being so late would not affect your performance review. (It would be really helpful if that is in writing and you can produce it!)
        2. This evaluation is so different from your prior performance reviews, and obviously reflects factors that are outside your control.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Is there a process for appealing the needs improvement? Where I work you can go up one step to the person who manages your boss. If so, and you plan to put in for the transfer before he gets to do another eval, that is the tack I would take.

      1. BL 2*

        No set process, but I could definitely do that. The problem is he’d know and he’s already made my professional life miserable. I’m not sure my mental health could handle the little zingers that would come my way for the next year.

        The anon letter idea was along that vein, though, not mentioning me specifically, but thinking I could list the behaviors I’ve seen, poor morale examples and hope that if Corporate investigates they’d reach out to me.

        Good ideas, though, and a lot to think about on my end.

        1. Dasein9*

          Sounds like HR has a record of this guy lowering WE, which would also work in your favor. Your appeal would probably add to the record they are compiling.

          In your place, I’d keep a record of what is said, time, and date for every “zinger” and provide that list to HR as well. (Might also help with not taking them personally.)

    3. Momma Bear*

      Do you have a formal process for protesting things in your employee file/annual review? Do you think he’s being retaliatory in his marking you down so you can’t transfer? I might consider fighting back if you have the data to back it up.

    4. BRR*

      If I’m understanding right, can you go back to the HR manager and say it did affect your performance review?

      The other thing that sticks out is you mention anonymous a few times. Unfortunately I don’t think the situation can be resolved that easily. I’m sorry, I wish I had better advice.

  81. TGI(February)*

    I remember once hearing Alison remark that the comments section tended to get snippier in January, and ever since then I’ve been noting that it’s a broader trend in my workplace; my coworkers are shorter and more irritable and just generally gloomier in mid-January than in other months, presumably because the excitement of the holidays are over and now we’re just slogging through the same old sludge. I don’t think early February is a day and night difference or anything, but I do think it tends to improve as Spring comes on. Do other people feel this way? With the omicron wave I’ve definitely been feeling the full brunt of wintry cabin fever both in and out of the workplace. Glad to see the light returning.

    1. JustaTech*

      It reminds me of that line from The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe – “always winter and never Christmas”. I live pretty far north and the difference in daylight is starting to speed up a bit so it’s very noticeable and I think that’s made folks a bit less dreary.

    2. Qwerty*

      YES! At one job I would bring in a bottle of Vitamin D every January to share with my team, which had a big improvement on everyone’s mood until the sun came out again. (we were all pretty close so telling them they needed more sunlight wasn’t weird)

    3. Noxalas*

      I’ve actually noticed a bit of the opposite – people here seem more relaxed now that the holidays and all the stressors that come with them are over. That period between mid-November and New Year’s is a beast. But that might say more about the people around me and my location!

  82. Ann O*

    I’m scheduling an interview and the candidate asked me how they should dress. Our normal office dress is business casual, but that’s not written in stone and some people dress more casually. Most interviewees show up in business professionals (suits). That said, given the changes in recent years it seems out of step to request that! Any advice? I’m probably overthinking this.

    1. pancakes*

      If people in the office tend to dress business casual or even more casually than that, I think it would be odd to tell candidates to wear a suit. Is there a reason why you think they should?

      1. Ann O*

        Hmm, it’s more that most other candidates do wear a suit to interview. I don’t want to advise a candidate to dress casually, and then the other interviewers consciously or unconsciously make unfavorable comparisons. That said, it seems weirdly rigid to ask someone to wear a suit these days! My own thoughts and expectations on dress codes are changing, leaning more towards casual than they used to be.

        1. pancakes*

          Got it. I suppose it depends on the interviewers and what you know about their preferences. I suppose you could say something along the lines of, “we tend to dress business casual here, but we realize some candidates prefer business dress for interviews”? That leaves a door open for them to go either way.

        2. ecnaseener*

          If I were you, I’d give the other interviewers a heads up that this candidate asked about dress code and you told them business casual. It doesn’t completely rule out unconscious bias, but it’ll prevent the knee-jerk “wow, this person doesn’t know how to dress for an interview” reaction.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Just say, “Our office is usually business casual, but I’ve noticed that a lot of interviewees seem to show up in suits, which is also fine.”

      Give them the info and let them decide what to do with it.

    3. JessicaTate*

      I think I would give the candidate the full info you did here and let them make the call. “Our typical office dress code is business casual, which typically looks like XYZ; although people will wear LMNOP for important client meetings. In the past, I’ve noticed that many interviewees for this type of position come wearing business attire (dress clothes, suits), but we certainly don’t require it.”

      So, you’re giving them full info: The actual requirements (for interviewees and for the job), but also that you’ve had a lot of people wear suits to an interview, so they can hedge their bet if they want to. Or they can go more casual. You can be on the lookout in hiring discussions with your team for any indication that attire is biasing a viewpoint and try to address that part internally to shift norms.

    4. Momma Bear*

      I always err on the side of more formal for an interview. I knew they were fairly informal here but I wore a suit anyway because IMO what people wear day to day is different than your first impression. So you might say, “We are a business casual office but most candidates wear suits.”

  83. Medical Librarian*

    Has anyone contacted a recruiter for assistance in finding a different position? Would you advise going that route? Specifically looking at librarian positions if anyone knows of a contact.

    1. Hatchet*

      I don’t have any advice regarding recruiters, but for Librarian jobs, perhaps check the ALA Job listings, or those of your State Library Association. Also, could you network through the Academic Library SIGs in those two groups?

  84. Bad Manager*

    I don’t like my job and have been looking for a new one, but I’m waiting for the right fit and not trying to make a jump just to leave. I imagine it will take longer than jumping for a similar job at a competitor (which I’m trying to avoid).

    I received word that I could take a certification exam (similar to PMP but industry specific) this month so I’m registered and scheduled, as I had planned on doing it last year but it got postponed and now I feel it like it might look suspicious if I don’t do it. It might help me marginally with my job search but would be more of an advantage to my current employer (stating that x number of our employees have this certification). I feel a little guilty for doing it when I want to leave ASAP. Is there a general guideline on how long you should stay at a company after they sponsor you for a certification?

    1. Can Can Cannot*

      Take the exam and get your certification. Professional growth is a good thing. The fact that it might benefit your employer is irrelevant. And don’t worry about leaving after getting your new certification. They wouldn’t give it a second thought if they laid you off after your certification.

  85. rr*

    Unrelated questions:
    1. There was a post earlier this week about people not doing work they aren’t paid for properly. How does that work, in reality? Do you actually say “this is above my pay grade?” I am being paid like a clerk and being asked to take a lot of responsibility and I guess I finally figured out that…I don’t want to, at least not at the level of pay (plus terrible treatment) I’m getting. But I can just see my boss throwing a fit if I said something like that. What is a good, clear, but professional way to handle this?
    2. Baby shower: I work in a tiny office and a co-worker is due soon. She’s not openly nasty to me, but she undermines me, questions me, generally expects people to treat her with kid gloves (none of this is new) and takes advantage of everything. And doesn’t extend herself at all to anybody else. I was hoping to be gone before the probable baby shower came up, but it doesn’t look like it is going to happen. So what do I do and how do I handle it? I frankly don’t make enough money (see above) where even if it was somebody I liked I would be thrilled to participate, but under the circumstances, it is worse.
    3. I just got a rejection for a job I applied to in May. Is this normal? I mean, obviously, I wasn’t a top candidate or anything close. But what gives?
    4. I’ve been doing applications where they require you to fill out a form about if you’ve been getting assistance of a variety of kinds or not. The forms assure me it doesn’t make a difference to the application, but it makes me wildly uncomfortable. But the applications won’t allow you to proceed without doing them. Again, what gives? Any way around this or advice on a way to deal with it?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      1. Well, it is going to depend on your boss. If you have a reasonable one, then saying, “Hey, I think this is higher level work than I am comfortable taking on” is 100% a professional way to handle it; however, if your boss is unreasonable (and it sounds like they are) than you might be out of luck. Also, if you have a good boss, they should be keeping an eye on this and trying to make sure it doesn’t happen, but again… it sounds like your boss might suck.
      2. This is what dollar store congrats cards were made for. Most work showers I have been too were about a party and not about gifts.
      3. Sometimes places have policies where they can’t reject candidates until the person they hired has passed all the background checks, signed the contract or offer letter, and started the job. My former employer was structured that way due to some odd Union rules and former lawsuit that got super nasty. No idea if that’s the case, but hiring and rejecting people always takes six times longer than anyone wants it to.
      4. I’ve never seen this, but I assume it has to do with some sort of legal reporting requirement. Maybe someone else has more insight on that one.

    2. Sherm*

      1. It for sure can be risky to refuse to do work, but, if you like the work that you do, maybe sit down with the boss and make the case for more pay, and maybe a new title, too. If you don’t like the work, you could perhaps say “I’m glad to help out in a pinch, but my interests are in llama grooming rather than teapot painting, and I hope I will be able to focus on that in the future.” If you think your boss would flip out just because of that, I’d job search!
      2. If the baby shower is not at the office, not during work hours, you’re in the clear to say “So sorry, I already had something on my schedule. Hope everyone has fun!” If it’s in the office, I would stop by, chit chat, eat the cake (if your health/preferences allow), and say “Gotta go to a meeting!” if you’re ready to bail.
      3. It happens. Some companies want to be sure to get back to everyone, but they get really behind. It happened to me once — a guy called about an interview months ago. I’m usually diplomatic, but I was so stunned I just said “Uh, that was months ago,” and the guy sounded sheepish — he knew it was indeed a while.
      4. Do they mention anywhere why they want that info? Possibly they need to report it to the feds? I think you could just write “no response.”

      1. Girasol*

        2. Offer gracious congratulations and mention your conflicting engagement/meeting/work/whatever. Unwilling acquaintances should never be pressed for gifts.
        3. You have to consider how hiring works. Previous employee quits and the boss posts the job opening. His boss says, “wait, stop the interviews, we have to review our budget!” This is delayed because now it’s July and there are vacations, but the posting is finally approved. But wait: boss’s boss says, “What if we made a single job out of that position and Jim’s job and then just pushed the weekly report to Bob? Did you consider that?” Much argument and analysis follows, and then nobody does anything for a month because boss’s boss is on vacation in August, and then the job opening is re-approved. But wait, corporate HQ has put a freeze on hiring because numbers! The hiring freeze is lifted in December. Of course then it’s holidays and you can’t get key people together for decisions. And then comes January. Quick, hire the best candidate who’s still available! The only rare thing here is that you got a rejection letter instead of being ghosted.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Re: 3 Oh I love when I get rejection emails for jobs I applied to eons ago. I think the longest time from application to rejection I’ve gotten was almost two years! I usually assume I’m throwing my applications into a black hole and then get pleasantly surprised if they reach out.

      I will say it is waaay easier to find it amusing when you’ve long since moved into a new role, it must feel like a slap in the face to get that when you’re still job hunting.

      I hope you find something great soon!

    4. I was told there would be llamas*

      4. Does it also ask about if you are a veteran or ex-felon? It might be the Work Opportunity Tax Credit questionnaire. It’s an incentive for employers to hire people in target groups that have historically faced barriers to employment. Employers get a tax credit for hiring people in the target groups.

    5. OtterB*

      Re baby shower, if it’s in the office during normal work hours, I’d say stop in, be social, have something urgent you have to get back to. If people are bringing gifts, take something small – ones I have given/received are a kid’s book or a picture frame.

    6. Dasein9*

      1. I’ve been facing this lately and spoke to my supervisor because I was being made responsible for stuff that’s not my job and was not being given the resources to do the stuff. Explaining it in those terms helped a lot: it’s not in my supervisor’s best interest to have me doing work that I don’t have the resources to do well.

      2. If you really, really don’t want to go to the shower, maybe that’s a day you take PTO, if you’ve got it to spare.

    7. Lost Food*

      I got a rejection email from a bakery I applied to in the summer in December. That was only because the location I applied to was shutting down.

  86. Fabulous*

    I have an interview Monday morning for an internal lateral position. My question is about negotiating salary.

    How do I negotiate for a significant lateral raise – like 40%?

    I was originally hired as a contractor 6 years ago and that has put me at a serious disadvantage salary-wise throughout my career here. I need to be brought up to a) the industry average, and b) a salary that reflects my experience and skills. I’m *hoping* there isn’t a cap on salary adjustments for internal transfers, but even if there is, maybe there’s still a way to negotiate?

    It does not make financial sense to me to transfer roles for just a 10% raise – hell even a 20% raise won’t cut it. 30% would be the lowest I’d accept – 40% would be ideal. In just a few short months, I’ll have the opportunity for a promotion in my current role due to a coworkers impending retirement, and target salary for her role is within the higher range for this new role (AND OMG THE ROLE ACTUALLY POSTED THE ANTICIPATED SALARY RANGE!) So essentially, this new role would have to match what I would be making at the promoted level. So I needs to do some work!! How though?!

    1. RagingADHD*

      I’d just say that you have realized that you’ve been underpaid the last 6 years, and are looking for the new role to bring you up to market standards. Then see what they say.

    2. PancakeSyrup*

      Totally agree with RagingADHD – let them know that since coming in as an outside contractor 6 years ago you recognize that you’ve been underpaid and, to bring you up to industry standard, a more appropriate salary for someone with your experience and skill set is between X and X. I would add that you should provide some support for your request because they’re not going to do the homework for you. Provide details about where you found your information – Glassdoor, GSA Library, etc. If they offer you the position at a lower rate than what you’re looking for, you can continue to negotiate (signing bonus, guarantee a review at 6 months for a step raise toward your goal rate, etc) BUT you should also be prepared to walk away from that position if it’s def not going to work for you. Also, I’m confused by the second half of your post. I don’t understand why you’d think the “new role would have to match what you’d be making at the promoted level”. You weren’t promoted in your current role and were never at that higher salary range. Maybe I’m misunderstanding this. Either way, Good Luck to you! I hope you get what you want.

      1. Fabulous*

        I will have the opportunity to be promoted in a few months when my coworker “Jane” retires. Obviously it’s not a done deal, but I’d say there’s a 95% chance I have it if I want it (and I don’t really want it, but I’ll sure as hell be applying regardless if I dont get this one).

        My boss has been great about this whole process and shared that the target salary for Jane’s replacement is X, which is toward the top of the listed range, so if I were to get this job in the different department, I’d need the salary to match X, what I would be earning in Jane’s position.

        That make more sense?

        1. Dinah*

          I mean, that’s useful in helping you to know what you are looking for, but it won’t make any difference to them! What you’d get IF you got a different job isn’t relevant. You need to make the case for why you are worth the salary you want in the role they have. That needs to be based on data, past performance, and market value. Is your current salary + 40% a reasonable ask for the role and responsibilities? If so, you just need to show that you’re worth it. If not, it’s going to be very tough to convince them to pay you that much more. Can you start a dialogue about their anticipated salary range for the role on the interview, to see if it makes sense to continue talking?

    3. Anonie*

      At my organization, I spent two years as a 1099 contractor and worked with regular W-2 employees, and we were all doing the same job. I was just part time with flexible hours. When I applied for and received a full-time W-2 position the following year, I was hired in as and was treated as a brand new first-year employee. I even received all the “new employee orientation!” and “new employee get together!” emails, despite effectively being in my third year. So, are you SURE this would be treated like an internal transfer and not as a new employee? If it’s the latter, then leverage it. And I’d be prepared to walk if they want you to take the promotion but won’t apply the target salary to you.

  87. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

    In reference to this morning’s letter about working with or hiring someone who had a past criminal history, I thought it would be interesting to have a thread about it.
    Have you ever worked or hired someone with a past criminal history that you knew of? If you learned about it after working with the person for a while how did you handle the information?
    If you were hiring and you learned your best candidate had a prior conviction how would you proceed? Would you ask them about it or just look at crime+job you want filled and decide?
    What do you think should be done to help people who served time find jobs?

    I’ll put my response as a reply so this isn’t a wall o’ text

    1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

      Have you ever worked or hired someone with a past criminal history that you knew of?
      -In addition to the stakeholder I work with who I mentioned in my reply to LW1 from today’s letter, I have hired quite a few people with past felony convictions, including some with very alarming connotations (e.g. human trafficking). However, knowing the place I was hiring in (border area with Mexico), the lightness of the sentences (fines, probation, 1-2 weeks detained by Border Patrol), I figured most were giving a migrant a ride rather than human smuggling, so when it came up on background, as long as the box was checked appropriately I hired them.

      If you learned about it after working with the person for a while how did you handle the information?
      – This was a coworker who had a rape conviction with a pretty long sentence. I learned it from a friend of the victim who worked with one of our vendors who was not happy to see him when she visited our office. In that case I told my manager who then told me HR and upper management knew. I avoided being alone the coworker as much as I could and tried to make sure none of the other women in the office was alone with him. I didn’t tell everyone, though, and I am still not sure if that was the right way to go

      If you were hiring and you learned your best candidate had a prior conviction how would you proceed? Would you ask them about it or just look at crime+job you want filled and decide?
      -In one case, an applicant had a drug smuggling conviction with a 3 yr state sentence and he told us on his application and in the interview. He also expressed his remorse and his hope that someone would give him a chance. We did, he rocked

      What do you think should be done to help people who served time find jobs?
      -I think we really need to be more open to it and not assume any conviction = DANGER! DANGER. The type of crime, the role, and population served in that role should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        Yes, I’ve worked with several folks who had felony convictions in their pasts. They were all amazing, super hard workers. I think what made them so great was that they were pretty open about where they were in their lives when they committed those crimes and how they were in such a different place now, and how they got to that different place.

      2. TreeLinedStreet*

        Dang. I would be so freaking upset if management knew there was a rapist on staff. I would never be alone with them. That is a dangerous crime to be convicted for, and I would not feel comfortable working with them.

    2. OyHiOh*

      There is a seated city council member in my community who has a misdemeanor conviction for “destruction of public property” (they removed loose bricks from a retaining wall, where falling masonry could have injured pedestrians or, in their case, protesters). Quotes because the situation was kinda ridiculous for all but the most hard-core fans of law and order. The city apparently saw no reason to repair the wall, until this situation developed, of course. Now it’s maintained in perfect order.

      They were originally charged with a felony, which would have prevented them from serving on council, and took a plea deal down to misdemeanor with fines and token community service. Their first or second week on city council, they faced an ethics charge for the same thing that resulted in the criminal charge in the first place, from some of those hard core law and order fans, who apparently haven’t read the city charter, where it says that a person with a felony conviction cannot serve on council but lesser convictions can serve.

      I am personally impressed with this person, who by all reports is a decent, hard working human being, who has lived in our community most of their life and comes from a family with a strong tradition of public protest and advocating for legislative reform. They have a good job that their protest activities has not harmed, and I’m excited to see what they accomplish over the next four years on city council (our council is paid a stipend for service but meetings are held in evenings on assumption that council members are maintaining regular day jobs in addition to their duties to the city).

    3. irene adler*

      Have you ever worked or hired someone with a past criminal history that you knew of?

      Yes. I worked with someone who, later on, told me that she had murdered someone. Over money. This someone had told her they would not be paying back funds her husband had loaned to him because her husband had just passed away (unexpectedly). So in addition to her grief at just losing her husband, she had this clown trying to rip her off. Jerk got what he deserved.

      If you learned about it after working with the person for a while how did you handle the information?
      It didn’t change anything; I really enjoyed working with her. Didn’t think it was my place to inform anyone about this. Not like it would have affected her job duties.

      If you were hiring and you learned your best candidate had a prior conviction how would you proceed? Would you ask them about it or just look at crime+job you want filled and decide?
      If the company has a policy about this- I’d have to follow it. Maybe lobby against it if it wasn’t a fair policy (“Look at what we are losing out on because of a stupid policy!”).
      If the crime was say, embezzlement, and the job involved bookkeeping, I would have a very frank discussion about this. How do I know they have changed their ways? Because, people do change. Both for the positive AND for the negative. Sometimes, all that is needed is the opportunity to show they are there to do positive things.

      Otherwise, I’d hire this best candidate.

      What do you think should be done to help people who served time find jobs?
      Remove the stigma -somehow! Maybe get a law passed that employees cannot discriminate against those who have paid their debt to society. People need to get off the notion that everyone/everything must be perfect. That folks who have served time are all evil. Hey, there are loads of people who have clean records who have done far worse things than folks who have done time.

      1. Reba*

        There are Ban the Box laws of various stripes in twenty-some states now. Although formerly-incarcerated is not a protected status for discrimation law, one argument in favor of ban-the-box is about disparate impact discrimination. That is, because Black and Latino men are arrested and convicted at a higher rate than White men, asking about criminal history has a disparate impact on those populations.

        Of course, those laws don’t say anything about ye olde Google or those horrible mug shot extortion websites.

      2. pancakes*

        Yikes. Agree on removing stigma, but the idea that anyone “deserves” extrajudicial murder as punishment for theft or embezzlement doesn’t sit well with me at all. (Neither does the death penalty, for that matter). I do not think US culture would benefit at all from being more like a wild west movie, I do not see any evidence whatsoever that the death penalty is an effective deterrent, and I hope you’ll examine your views that vigilante murder is a good form of justice.

  88. TiredAnon*

    I need a gut check.

    In August of last year, I talked to my boss and asked for a raise, citing my history of good reviews and all of the extra work I’ve taken on over the past couple of years. He agreed that my work warranted an increase in pay and suggested an amount that was about a 15% increase. He said he’d get it done before the end of the year.

    We have monthly 1-on-1s. In September, he told me that he had submitted my raise for approval. In October, he told me approval had been given and the paperwork done, and it was just awaiting a final signature by the department head.

    In November, he canceled our meeting due to the holiday. Same in December. I sent him a couple of emails asking what was going on, and he simply… ignored them. He answers my other emails (I’m fully remote and on the night shift, so we don’t bump into one another in person) but never addressed those.

    We finally met in January. When I asked him what was going on with my raise, he said that he hadn’t known that it’s against company policy to give raises in January, because it could complicate our COLA and bonus which are done in January. When I reminded him he’d told me it would be done by the end of 2021, he repeated that it’s against company policy to give raises in January.

    (A side joke, in this same meeting I let him know that my wife and I are expecting a child in June. He told me I’d need to use my PTO but could use FMLA afterward if I wanted additional unpaid time off. I told him our company offers 2 weeks of paid parental leave separate from regular PTO and even showed him the section of the employee handbook covering that leave. He told me he’d “look into it.”)

    Is this as bad as it feels, or am I being entitled? My morale is in the toilet right now.

    1. Disco Janet*

      Him saying he would “look into it” when it’s literally your company policy is a big yikes. It sounds like more of a “your boss is clueless and a bit of a jerk” situation though, so try not to let it affect your perception of yourself! I can absolutely understand how it would hurt morale though.

    2. Fabulous*

      Your boss should absolutely know about the FMLA, though if he’s never had anyone on his team use it before, it’s understandable that he doesn’t know parental leave specifics. I’ve also been told that they can’t give raises outside of certain periods. It sucks, but if you have a COLA in January, ideally it should be a great time to do it – just build it into the COLA. It sounds like something happened behind the scenes that he doesn’t want to (or can’t) tell you about.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Yes, this is as bad as it feels. No, you are not being entitled. He should have pushed for your raise before the end of the year. (But similarly, around here personnel is swamped in January with all the adjustments that need to be made to pay, taxes, etc. So once he hit January, he couldn’t do anything.) Can you check in with HR on the status of the raise? If they don’t know anything about it, might mean he hasn’t done necessary paperwork.

      You won’t qualify for paid FMLA at a new job until you’ve been there for a year so you need to stick it out, but once you finish your parental leave, look for a new job!

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        Came here to say exactly this, Policy Wonk!
        I second all of it and you are NOT being entitled! Your boss is being a jerk

    4. WellRed*

      I’d push back on the raise thing, by pointing out it was discussed in AUGUST. I’d reach out to HR to get the deets on FMLA and paid leave. My boss is awesome, but wouldn’t have clue.

    5. ecnaseener*

      Yes, it’s as bad as it feels. I don’t know that I’d advise you to *do* anything about it, other than get on his ass about it now that it’s February.

  89. Cookies for Breakfast*

    This week in “Does Anyone At My Workplace Even Have A Clue”:

    1) My grandboss asked if I’d be interested in moving to a smaller team working on a lower-profile product. He framed it as an opportunity to step away from the constant internal stakeholder pressure and get more time to refine my skills. Because he recently changed my role in a way that felt a bit like a demotion, my brain (admittedly, a jerk some of the time) finds it easier to believe his real plan is “let’s park her in a corner and wait for her to leave”. No worries, boss! I’m job hunting! Give me a little time and I’ll see myself out!

    2) In parallel, the technical leader is making a plan for my current team to grow, and be split into units with smaller remits. That, in itself, is a positive: for years, we’ve been ridiculously underresourced for the huge workload we have. I saw a draft of the plan, and it has me running the area of the product I enjoy the least (most intricate to understand, and so complex it could only be salvaged by ripping everything off and starting again…which will never happen).

    I’m laughing to myself as I type this. Am I so incompetent I need to be taken away from the complex stuff? Or so competent I must take it on? Make up your mind, people!

    And, all fingers crossed, in a few weeks’ time none of this may matter anymore. I’m the final candidate for a job that seems promising in many ways (though a slight pay cut), waiting for the last interview with the leadership team. If you have good vibes to spare, send some this way :)

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      In short, I would say the answer to your question is “No!!” This sounds like a crazy place to work and I wish you luck with your interview process!!

      1. Cookies For Breakfast*

        Haha, yes and thank you! I’ve been job hunting on and off for a year, and this time last year, the situation was even worse. I know the next workplace won’t be perfect, because perfect workplaces don’t exist. But it’ll most likely be a new kind of imperfect, instead of this specific mess I’ve seen unfold for years. I think I can learn more from making a change than sticking with what’s familiar.

  90. TGI(February)*

    I think I could use a reality check. I have a typical office job and don’t feel that I’m really living up to my potential. I struggle with procrastination and motivation when things seem kind of arbitrary. Lately I’ve been wishing I’d gone into a field where there are external factors keeping you busy and engaged – like being a nurse, or maybe a teacher. I assume nurses don’t have to depend on individual gumption to get started because there’s lots of patients with needs, and teachers are actively teaching in a classroom much of the day. I also think that kind of career seems way more useful to society than me pushing paper, particularly given current events. However, training to become an ER nurse in my midthirties seems pretty harebrained and presumably it would take years of schooling before I could even see what it’s really like. Ditto teachers. Are there any jobs that seem like they would fit my parameters that I could get into more quickly?

    1. Ask me how I know*

      With twenty years experience in teaching, this might not be a good fit. Teaching is ALL self-motivating. Procrastination just adds to the stress. Lesson plans, class prep, professional development. It is exhausting and endless.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      There are four differences I can think of between a “typical office job” and the other careers you mention:
      1) sitting at a desk vs standing/moving around for much of the day
      2) interacting with a few people during the day vs lots of (different?) people during the day
      3) nursing and teaching have direct and easy-to-see benefits to society
      4) you can put off the work vs. the work comes to you and demands immediate attention

      I don’t know which of these factors are more important to you (maybe all of them are). In no particular order, here are some potential jobs:
      – IT helpdesk/inbound call center role: good for 2 and 4, bad for 1 and 3
      – manufacturing: good for 1 and maybe 4, bad for 2 and 3
      – “fire-fighting” role in an office: good for 4 and probably 2, bad for 1 and 3
      – working an office job at a non-profit you care about: good for 3, bad for 1, maybe ok for 2 and 4

      1. TGI(February)**

        You know you’re right, I hadn’t thought of it that way until you said this, but part of what I’m fixated on seems to be “moving around all day” and “interacting with different people during the day.” Thank you for this clarity. You can probably guess that I have ADHD from my comments.

    3. Emily Elizabeth*

      I’m a preschool teacher, and I definitely think that having to respond to the needs of my students all day keeps me much more engaged than I would be if I had an office job. I really struggle with executive functioning and starting tasks at home, but at school I’m very present because all decisions and tasks, whether it be leading story time or tying a shoe, just has to be done in the moment! I see the immediate results of my actions and I want to do them well because they have an important tangible affect. However, I don’t know if I would advocate for anyone to move into teaching right now without doing a little bit more soul-searching and/or exposure to the job. Almost everywhere in the country is strapped for substitute teachers – if you are considering the career change that’s an potential way to try out the classroom presence without having to be responsible for all the paperwork that drags down the day.

      1. TGI(February)**

        Yeah sadly I have basically discarded the idea of teaching because everyone I know in that field has told me it’s pretty awful right now :( Bad hours, low pay, lack of respect, increasing bureaucracy, and now all this covid drama on top of it. Too bad as it’s obviously an important job in our society!

    4. Anonie*

      If you struggle working when things seem arbitrary, then do not go into public education. A lot of that is arbitrary busy-ness, without a lot of room for growth, unless you’d like to become a building administrator with even more arbitrary red tape. I’m struggling with that in public ed right now…the core/direct part of the job is fine, the indirect/arbitrary parts of the job suck, and there’s professionally nowhere to go.

  91. Nisie*

    I have breast cancer. My primary and I went over the report today and it’s treatable. She’s encouraging me to work through the treatments.

    Talk to me about working while undergoing chemo. I work from home part-time already. I can adjust my week somewhat.

    1. pancakes*

      I’m sorry to hear about your diagnosis. I worked through two different courses of chemo, both because I needed the income and because I wanted to try to keep the rest of my life as normal as possible while on treatment, and don’t have regrets about that. Anti-nausea meds are really, really good now and that wasn’t a problem for me. Radiation made me more fatigued than chemo but even that wasn’t so bad. If you have leeway in scheduling treatments you may want to try to have them on Fridays, or whenever the day before your time off is, so that you have the next day off to relax. People’s reactions vary, but the day after treatment is typically going to be more wearying than the day of.

    3. Mimmy*

      Not me personally, but last year, our manager worked while undergoing chemo, then radiation, for a different kind of cancer (this after taking several weeks’ leave for surgery). We were completely virtual anyway due to the pandemic, so I think that worked in her favor as did having lots of support from the rest of us. She was afforded flexibility with her schedule and time off around treatments and days when she was experiencing side effects. It was a tough year for her, but she got through it with grace and a healthy attitude.

      I don’t know if you’ve shared this with your employer yet, but I’d say it’s important to be honest about what you need. You don’t have to share details, obviously, but just mention that you will be having regular treatments and that you may need some flexibility in the hours/days you work, especially in the days around these treatments, depending on how they make you feel.

      I’m basing this purely on my manager’s experience, so I can’t offer anything more specific than that because I didn’t get into a ton of details with her (we have a close relationship, but I wanted to respect her privacy).

      Wishing you all the best.

    4. Ins mom*

      Been there done that- 35 and again 13 years ago. And I’m sure treatments and recovery are better refined now. Chemo wednesday, slept in the recliner part of Thursday, back to work on Friday. Neulasta is your friend. I only missed one meal. You got this!!

    5. Daffodilly*

      So sorry to hear about your diagnosis and the challenges of treatment ahead.
      My boss had breast cancer and worked throughout her treatment, so I can speak to things you want to be aware of.
      First, we all were happy to be flexible with her. We took on some time critical tasks towards the end of the week (Her chemo day was Thursday) so she didn’t need to worry about them if she was having a particularly bad time that week. We just alternated.
      Chemo brain can happen, and it’s rough. She had some real brain fog days and weeks. She would tell Marcia that Jan could cover a task so she could have a day off, then forget to tell Jan. Then the day would come and poor Cindy was left hanging! We started doing a LOT of back channel coordination to double check things and avoid situations like that. That was hard for my boss to realize, as she’d been quite proud of NOT having trouble at work. We weren’t upset, we just wanted to make sure everything was covered and that it didn’t go up the org chart as a problem! But still boss felt a lot of (IMO unnecessary) guilt about how her health impacted us.
      Know that it is likely just fine to say “I just can’t this week” and ask for help.
      At one point I got a call from someone she collaborated with in our professional organization, asking if everything was okay because boss had uncharacteristically dropped the ball on them. I didn’t know what, if anything, boss would have wanted me to say. Your coworkers may want to know how open or private you want to be with your diagnosis. (I opted to be vague and not disclose since I didn’t have explicit permission to share, but it was an awkward conversation.)
      And the good news is that treatment doesn’t last forever. My boss is about 4 years out of treatment and doing very well, back to her normal excellent way of doing things and we don’t have to back channel any more.
      May you do as well.

    6. Weegie*

      I worked throughout chemo and two operations – it saved my sanity, gave me something to focus on and aided my recovery afterwards. Caveat: I was self-employed at the time, which allowed me to turn down work from clients and to schedule the work I accepted around my treatments/ recovery time. Being (relatively) young at the time, I was on very high doses of three drugs, so how it worked for me was that the day after treatment I couldn’t get out of bed, by the end of a week I could sit up in a work chair, answer a few emails and scope out my work. The next week I could work a few hours a day, increasing the hours daily. The third week I worked fairly normally, then the next treatment and three-week cycle began again.
      I cannot emphasise how important work was to me during this time, but I didn’t push myself to do more than felt feasible – you will most likely do less than your normal rate of work. Once I’d recovered, I also found myself reassessing my priorities: continued working in the same area but dropped a small side-business I’d started (lost interest in it totally during my treatment), went back to university to pursue an advanced degree, after which I entered a different career for a while. Now back in my old profession, working for an employer and very well-paid.
      Chemo changes all kinds of things, but working through it is more than doable, and it helps to keep you going until you come out the other end.

      1. Nisie*

        Thank you all. I’m seeing this as more and more possible now. I’m in a better headspace than last week and able see beyond the C.

    7. Kate Lathrop*

      First – hugs – that’s such a huge mental blow. The call from the radiologist the day after my biopsy rocked my world.

      I am fortunate to have an amazing boss and team of co workers. I worked through all 4 rounds of chemo (including packing and moving the office) and aside from time off for the treatments, I only called out 1 day in 12 weeks. That said – don’t be me – don’t try to be a super hero. Chemo is hard on the body regardless of which drugs and titration of said drugs you’ll be on. If you need to rest, and you can – rest.

      Take notes on everything! You will feel like your head is stuffed full of cotton and the effects can take several months post last chemo treatment to go away. I would take notes, send emails to myself, set reminders, etc. My co workers were also good at sending me notes about action items as a reminder as well.

      I scheduled my chemo for Friday afternoons so I would have the weekends to rest. Ask your oncologist or their patient navigator about the Nulasta device; it helps to keep up white blood cell counts during chemo, and I was able to utilize a program that provided it at no cost to me. If you use the Nulasta, take the Claritan and Aleive combo to help with the joint pain. For nausea I would take the Compazine starting the first day of chemo for at least 6 days. Zofran was great for breakthrough nausea.

      Stay hydrated! If you can’t take any more water, Gatoraid or PowerAid are good substitutes. Ask for a consult with a nutritionist to help plan meals that are easy to eat and will help keep your protein levels up.

      Any type of daily activity will help you feel better and can help with the fog.

      There’s some great advice in the other comments. Sending you all the best as you walk through this.

  92. anonymous73*

    **CSM certification course recommendations please**

    I’m a Project Manager with my PMP and I’m interested in obtaining a CSM certification as well. I use PMPrepCast for my PMP, but they don’t offer CSM cert. It was online and self paced and I’m looking for something similar for the CSM. I haven’t had much luck with a google search. Has anyone used a similar service that they can recommend?

    1. urguncle*

      I did a CSPO course through Scrum Alliance and I was very happy with the experience, although it was a 2 day course, with a 6-8 hour commitment both days. That being said, it made sense in that format for me and although it was a slightly intense Zoom fatigue week, I’m glad that it was that short.

  93. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    How to tell someone politely that they’ve got no chance of a job in your team?

    Background: we’re an internal IT department. There’s a lady in another unrelated department that fancies a career change and keeps on bugging me about every single available job in IT.

    Problem is, she’s such a nasty person that she’s actually banned from calling IT help desk and almost none of my techs want to deal with her at all. She loses her temper, makes unfounded accusations, swears at people and then the next day will come up with a ‘I’ve got personal issues at home, so don’t take my temper personally’ stuff. I have complained to HR but since her department hasn’t complained about her there’s not much I can do but ban her from calling us.

    However, telling her outright “you’re such a nasty person 99% of the time that I’d rather hire a rabid wolverine” is obviously pretty unprofessional and, yeah I got a lot of sympathy for someone having issues at home and wanting a change of career but at the same time I really just want her to go away and leave me alone.

    Is “you’d do better applying outside the company for IT jobs because you’re not ever getting one here” too harsh?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “Jane, you’ve been banned from calling the help desk. Why do you think that anyone in the department would want to work with you?”

      1. Fran Fine*

        Right. I would say exactly this. It’s not mean, it’s direct and it saves her the trouble of applying for something you know she’s not going to get.

    2. Amaranth*

      Is she actually qualified to work in IT? You could just tell her that even entry level jobs require x years of experience WORKING IN IT. But I think a calm ‘I don’t believe you’ve demonstrated the type of customer service skills we require.’ also works. I don’t get at all why it requires her own department complaining about her – have you complained to her immediate supervisor, so that you could go to HR and say they are ignoring the problem?

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        She’s gone and got a couple of courses on her own time and she’d probably just about be okay in the most junior role here – from a technical perspective. I just don’t want her.

        1. Amaranth*

          With that lukewarm assessment of her abilities I’d have no trouble saying she needs experience first. I wonder if it would be a pay cut to be the most junior starter techie ever.

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      She… knows she’s banned, right? Does she still try to call? Maybe something like “Jane, I’m sure you realize based on past issues that this department wouldn’t be a good fit”

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Oh yeah, if her machine goes wrong she has to get a coworker to call for her – or if she’s working from home she can send an email to the ticketing system.

        I’ve tried the ‘given you’re not allowed to talk to helpdesk, how could you work in the same department as them?” but I got a load of ‘my life is so hard, my husband hates me, you could get that ban removed, I’d be so much happier doing a job in IT and I could leave my husband’…

        (For the record: I have no opinion on whether her home life is as troubling as she says. It’s largely irrelevant here)

        I mean yes, I could get the ban removed. Easily. I don’t want to.

        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          “Matilda, the ban is there for a very good reason. The very same reason that your customer service skills are inadequate for any role in this department.”
          I think I hurt myself rolling my eyes at your post btw. Like you should care about her personal life etc

    4. the cat's ass*

      Tempting to go with the rabid wolverine line. SO tempting! But career change makes it sound like she doesn’t have the necessary experience to even be in your department in the first place, so maybe lead with that?

    5. Choggy*

      Wow, we had one of those, thankfully she retired, and we had a parade (in our minds). She always made us feel like we worked for her, and her issues were of utmost urgency and importance, and could get so nasty about things out of our control. No one ever wanted to pick up when we saw her name flash on our displays, she would not leave a message but continue to call over and over again until someone who drew the shortest straw picked up.

      Support those who deal with her by making sure they know you have their back, if she gets nasty, then they should be able to tell her to call back when she’s calmed down, or if they are assisting her in person, to let her know the same and walk away.

      There is absolutely no reason why someone should be allowed to continue to abuse and harass people.

    6. anonymous73*

      Personal at home issues don’t excuse a temper at work. Once maybe, and then an apology. But constantly, nope. Be honest with her. “You treat our help desk very poorly on a regular basis. This department would not be a good fit for you. Please stop asking me about open positions.” Being direct with someone like that is not ride or unprofessional. You shouldn’t have to fake nice to someone who treats your department like dirt. Civil yes, nice no.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        I’ve had to bite my tongue a lot to not point out how much I suffer but that I don’t go around biting people’s heads off. It’s been very tempting to engage in a ‘let’s see who has it worse’ contest but I know from long reading of this site how badly that would end.

        I like the “please stop asking me about open positions” suggestion you made. I’ll try that and if she stops me in the corridor sometime after I can just repeat that. It’s not rude and also doesn’t provide her an opening to debate. I hope…

    7. RagingADHD*

      “Jane, you keep asking about open positions and I must let you know that isn’t going to happen. Given your history with this department, I don’t see you as a good fit for the team, and that isn’t going to change. If you want to move into IT, I suggest you look elsewhere.”

  94. NB's mom*

    Question for the comenters in database/IT land.
    How hard would it be for a school system to add a new field to the database? How hard is it to code an option to generate email address in a pattern other than standard first+last? And how would a kid go about finding the right people to discuss possibility of adding a new field for preferred-name?
    The nb kid in my life goes to school where legal names are used non-negotiably to generate class rosters for teachers, bus drivers, and substitutes for both. It’s used to generate email addresses. Students can do a “use name” but it requires parent paperwork. Staff are saddled with first+last.
    They’ve realized that if the database could add a field “preferred name” and generate rosters/emails off that, it would resolve issues for current and future students and staff. Trans kids & staff. Immigrants who are tired of teaching yet another substitute how to pronounce their non-English name. Staff who are getting divorced. Maybe more they didn’t come up with. I think it’s a brilliant idea and want to help.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It depends 100% on what software package is being used. Sorry I can’t give any better advice than that. On some systems it might be an option that just needs to be turned on. On others, it might take anywhere from a few days to a month of work. On some others, it might be flatout impossible without replacing the software.

      1. Amaranth*

        If there is already a ‘nickname’ field as you find on some contact/donor software, it could maybe be repurposed, but that would probably be the best-case scenario. Even when I’ve had that option, it could be used inside of letters but not to address official correspondence.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It depends on what database you’re using and how much access you have. If you have full control of the database, adding a new field is no problem. You just create it in the appropriate table.

      If you’re using something like FileMaker Pro, you can do that in about one minute.

      If you have some custom web front end (PHP, for example) that connects to a back end database (MySQL, for example), you can create the new field in MySQL, but you may have to reprogram your web front end to use that new field in online forms.

      If you’re using a vendor, it’s really up to the vendor what they allow you to do. Some SaaS vendors will not give you full control of the database but still allow you several custom fields.

    3. Lucy H*

      We have this issue with the software our school system uses. It’s licensed through the local council and used by all schools in the council area, and it doesn’t allow us to make these kinds of changes. We’ve been petitioning to be able to do something, but the license is in place for a contracted term and the company that makes it won’t change anything, so we’re stuck. We have to rely on email and paper register notes to track name changes for our trans kids,

      Basically, it really depends what the software is, and who is in charge of it. It might be a quick and easy change, but it could also be impossible for the school to have any control over this. The starting point would need to be talking to the school about the limitations of the software and what degree of control they have over it.

    5. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      My particular area of expertise is databases.

      In theory it’s just a few simple commands to add an additional field in the backend database.

      The problem is with the questions of: which table? What other tables are linked to it? (Usually the answer is ‘a lot’) How much work is involved in changing the user interface to show the new field/allow it to be modified? (This is the bit with the greatest amount of time usually – especially if you have a data layer in between the bare bones of the database and the actual application interface), what reports/outputs will need to be recoded to show it? Who’s going to do systems testing to make sure the whole thing still works after?

      So it’s a fairly large job in some cases.

      To change how an email address or username is auto generated isn’t quite as complex. That’s more algorithms and checking to see the address isn’t already in use/doesn’t have commas or other invalid syntax in them.

      If the database is coded and maintained in house then there should be a dev team or IT person to ask about improvements. If it’s a system supplied and updated by a third party then they might do a change request but will probably charge a lot for it.

      I love databases but they can be complex wee beasties.

    6. Tali*

      It does depend on the software, but needing multiple name fields for the examples you mentioned and many others has been a thing for decades now, so I would be very surprised if there is NOTHING that can’t be repurposed or added. Women went by a married/maiden name back in the 70s/80s, men have gone by Bill instead of William or by a middle name since the turn of last century, so it should be possible.

      It’s often just not a priority.

  95. Startagain*

    I’m beginning my job search (again) and am trying a long-term strategy this time. I know I need to develop some of my harder skills but I’m unsure where to start and which ones I should focus on. Does anyone have a good resource on assessing ones current skills and determining action steps to work on them? I’m thinking worksheets, podcasts, articles, etc. Anything free is particularly appreciated!

    1. Teal Fish*

      Late to the thread, but just in case: Try looking at job descriptions for the role you want next, and look for trends among the requirements. Use that to shape your strategy around which skills to focus on. Once you identify a shortlist of skills, then you can look up assessments and resources for each individual skill.

  96. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

    Hello!

    I’m not sure if anyone remembers me- I posted a few times last spring/summer with this same handle after a good news update I sent to Alison which unfortunately turned out to be not so good (I had a few commenters as well as others in my personal life warn me).

    In short, I ramped up and targeted my job search in the fall (when there were opportunities abound) and at the beginning of this year, I began a FULL-TIME job paying nearly DOUBLE what I’ve ever made and I LOVE it!! I’m the most motivated by my work I’ve ever been.

    Now for the twist- I’m shy and admittedly a tad socially awkward. At my last 2 jobs, I can say that I didn’t really care whether my coworkers liked me or not since I didn’t really care for the work I was doing. Now that I’m somewhere I fully enjoy what I do, I feel like I’m breaking out of my shell and want to make a good impression- basically show that I’m sweet in addition to smart. And, I’m kind of in awe of my team. Like, we use MS Teams to communicate and when someone “likes” or “hearts” one of my messages, I stare at it for a little while like it’s an autograph from one of the Beatles or something. Anyone ever felt similarly after starting a great new role?

    1. the cat's ass*

      Totally. When i went from the job with hellbeast jr to my current job where people are smart and funny and not shouty and gaslighty, i went home and cried a few times.

      Like and heart things back, and when youre in office again, bring donuts/bagels!

      Enjoy the sanity.

    2. Cedrus Libani*

      In my previous job, the boss liked to use his people as emotional scratching posts. I needed the job, so I sat politely through many a weirdly personal attack, to the general effect that I am fundamentally flawed as a human being because I cannot re-arrange the laws of physics to suit my employer’s convenience.

      Then, I found a new job. It took me months to stop making a surprised Pikachu face whenever the boss said things like “thank you”, “good job”, and “go ahead, I trust you”. I still enjoy it. Sane workplaces are great!

  97. Chatterbox*

    So, I’ve come to the realization over the last couple months that I have a bad attitude at work. Specifically I verbalize a negative mindset about stuff often and to others. I comment dramatically and usually to no one in particular about any little issue or inconvenience or just something that strikes me as annoying, ridiculous, etc. I don’t like this about myself and I want to change it.

    I think the tendency comes from a few different things. A big one is that I’m new to office life after almost two decades of service industry work, where for better or worse the culture is usually about bonding with coworkers by complaining constantly (and often justifiably!) about customers with a very us vs them mentality. There’s also an element of being likely (not officially diagnosed) ADHD. I suspect that I previously worked out a lot of my hyperactivity by having physically active work. Now that I’m sitting at a computer all day, I feel like it’s being released verbally – I’ve never in my life been as chatty as I am at work all day long and I honestly can’t stop myself. It’s kind of embarrassing. Being somewhat socially isolated due to the pandemic and a move to a new city within the last year isn’t helping either. And finally, I don’t feel well-supported by management or the wider team in this position, so I’m frequently feeling overwhelmed and anxious about being able to handle my workload and do things correctly.

    I am trying to find a better job, but I don’t want to bring this bad habit along with me when I eventually find one. Does anyone have suggestions for how to manage myself better? I will say that therapy isn’t really in the budget for me right now. Thanks all.

    1. Cat on a Keyboard*

      Maybe a first step would be when you catch yourself saying something negative, counteract it with a follow-up comment. Ex: “This stupid printer never works! Ah, such is life.”
      Like imagine if you had a really positive buddy with you all the time who would silver-lining every inconvenience. It will show your coworkers you’re not committed to being pissed off about every little thing, and you DO have perspective. Eventually you’d hopefully be able to talk yourself out of the negativity before you say it.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I remind myself of a proverb (by posting it physically in my eyeline if I need to): “Out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.” When I catch myself being overly critical or spouting negativity, I mentally counteract those thoughts by reciting this to myself.

      I also use it as an opportunity to check in with myself and see what’s going on, and if there’s a better way to address it. (Such as getting up and moving around).

      Finally, I look for ways to “fill up” my heart with positive things during the day and in my off time. Not necessarily related to work, just joyful, hopeful, grateful stuff in general.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      So the thing about service jobs is that when people are being pains to you, they might just be nasty people in general, or they might have some reason for being nasty at you in particular. But the natural tendency is to take it personally. And the bonding sessions you do with co-workers reinforces that.

      When the printer breaks, it’s not personal. It’s a non-sentient machine.

      You should consider trying to shift your mindset so you don’t interpret every annoyance as being addressed *at* you specifically. It’s just a thing that happened.

      1. Chatterbox*

        Oh for sure, my frustrations are definitely about customers or bureaucratic issues, I’m not whining about the printer. But I don’t feel any better about it.

    4. Filosofickle*

      Wow, I wish I had the answer because I need it too. It’s been really noticeable to me lately that I am saying too much & being overly transparent about my anxieties / frustrations at work. Earlier this week I was in a situation where a story popped into my head, I decided not to tell it because that would be inappropriate for this meeting, and it blurted out of me anyway! I couldn’t stop it. Similar to you but different, this is also a new position for me after two decades of something else, I don’t think I’m doing awesome, and on top of that I’m overwhelmed in general with life. It’s just leaking out of me. I need to get my game face on!

      In the past I’ve used a system where every hour my phone dings with a chime, and I take five minutes to pause and recenter. I have a board with a handful of questions and prompts that remind me what I want to be thinking / doing. I’m going to start it back up and hope that resetting my brain every hour will increase my awareness and eventually control. This used to work for me and I’m hoping it will again.

    5. Mary S*

      I’m just going to throw out a bunch of ideas here and maybe one will be helpful.

      Would it be possible to listen to music, podcasts, or job-specific trainings/webinars while you work to feel less bored / in need of a chat? That’s one of the main things I did when I was having a similar problem with my anxiety spilling out at work, but couldn’t afford therapy. As a bonus, it got me the reputation of being someone who was really serious about my craft (because I did sooo many training courses whenever we had downtime). Another is I did some research into coping techniques for anxiety (substitute ADHD here) online and used some recommended techniques for interrupting anxiety spirals (chewing gum, changing what I was listening to, concentrating on my breathing, etc.), plus learning about thought-action fusion and other anxiety concepts to understand what was happening better. Also, if being physically active used to help, would it be possible to take short walks throughout the day, go up and down stairs, stand up and stretch, etc.? Or maybe you could up your physical activity outside of work?

      If none of those work, maybe you could try writing your thoughts in a notebook or on your phone to rant a bit. When I start a new job, I write down problems I see in a notebook and then only suggest solutions if no one has brought them up a month later (because usually people are already working on fixing the issues and I shouldn’t overstep, but I get so darn excited to see areas where I could help!). Maybe you could write down your complaints, then at a later time think of solutions, and suggest them to your manager in a one-on-one. Then you’ll be doing something proactive about it, which may make you feel better! Also, since you’re feeling unsure about your performance, are there any metrics you could start to gather for yourself, like I did X tasks last week, this week I’ll try to do X+1 tasks? And you could write down any good feedback you get in a kudos file to look at later when you feel unsure.

  98. ineligiblebachelor*

    I posted here a month or so ago spiralling about a) trying to find a new job and b) feeling guilty about leaving my current job. I’m happy to say I’ve accepted a new job that I think will be much more up my alley interests and skills-wise, and I gave notice this week and my manager was very understanding!

  99. Amaranth*

    Is there ever a good time to ask if an open job might be available as part time rather than full time? I’m looking at getting back into the job market after a decade of WFH as a contractor, but I have a parent who just went into memory care and that’s taking up a huge amount of energy and time at the moment. I’ve seen a couple of listings that are right in my wheelhouse but they are listed FT. I’m guessing benefits might be one issue, though I get my healthcare through the VA.

  100. Dr. Doll*

    Asking a second question today. If you schedule shift workers (retail, help desk, etc.), what software or tools do you use?

    We have about 10 student workers in my area who are really terrific, we love them all. But *scheduling* them is a hideous chore and I would like to make it easier.

    1. Camolita*

      I used a free app called Crew before I sold my small business. My employees could enter their availability and then i would set up the schedule. The app could send them reminders when their shift was coming up, and they could do things like request to switch shifts or share info with each other in the app. I found it really helpful.

  101. Cimorene*

    An update from last week! I wrote from the middle of stress nerves not know if silence from HR was good or bad on a new job offer. Apparently it was good! I start a week from Monday! Now to somehow land housing in the new city in that time frame….yikes. At least I can pull a commute (super long) from my current location though it would be nasty if housing isn’t as forthcoming as needed.

    Any advice on starting the new job and navigating office politics without tripping any landmines? I’m fairly new to office type jobs and this one is my first foray into government (library) so I’m even more not sure where the landmines and triggers are. I’m coming in at very very much entry level.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Congratulations! For office politics: pay attention to how people interact with each other and the general vibe of the office for the first few weeks. Don’t be negative or rude to people. If it’s a reasonable place, you shouldn’t trip any landmines (especially because you’re entry level) so don’t worry about it too much.

  102. Now In the Job*

    Do you know how hard it is to stop cracking your knuckles o___o I have a coworker who told me after a meeting that she was apparently tortured sitting next to me during the meeting because I kept cracking my knuckles. But my knuckles HURT if I don’t crack them. And my instinct is “Tough nuts, people crack their knuckles. Learn to deal with it.”

    To begin with she bugs me, since I know way more about her medically than I really ever wished to, plus she is a brand new, not major part of our team and described her role to the new people as “if it happens at this company, I touch it” which is. Not accurate. But I’m trying to figure out if my instinctual response to her (seemingly) to tell me I need to stop cracking my knuckles around her is informed by BEC and it’s a reasonable thing I should figure out how to do, or if it’s asking a bit too much of someone.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think you should cut her some slack on this one. Her BEC behavior has nothing to do with you cracking your knuckles.

      Because I’d be annoyed too if I was sitting next to somebody who was cracking their knuckles multiple times in a meeting. If for no other reason that it would make it hard to pay attention to whoever is speaking. Do you really need to crack your knuckles that often? If you aren’t woken up from sleep with pain in your fingers, then I think you can figure out how to go an hour in the office without doing that.

    2. Llama face!*

      I think your annoyance with your coworker is likely filtering your reception of the request. I am another person who would be really bothered by repeatedly hearing someone cracking their knuckles. It’s similar to the nail clipping conversation that’s been had before, ie. it’s a sound that is misphonic for a good number of people. It would make me feel really tense in my workplace to hear that sound on a frequent basis. It would be courteous of you to try to reduce that habit as much as possible in settings where other people are stuck listening to it.

    3. Everything Bagel*

      If it was anyone else, including your manager or a higher up, would you even be thinking twice about this request?

    4. ecnaseener*

      Sorry, yes, this is BEC. I also love cracking my knuckles, but some people are super grossed out by it — you gotta hold it in during meetings, or if you desperately need a crack at least hide your hands under the table and do it as quietly as possible.

    5. RagingADHD*

      You’re at BEC.

      Asking a coworker to cut down on or stop making an annoying repetitive action is like, the most basic level “use your words” type request that a person can make. It’s no different than if you had an unconscious habit of tapping your pen or jiggling your leg so hard it shook the conference table.

    6. BRR*

      My knuckles also hurt if I don’t crack them. Can you do a light crack? Doing it under the table might also help. But with this habit I do think you need to try and not do it too often.

    7. Now In the Job*

      Thanks for the sanity check yall. I’ll keep working on reining it in or doing it under the table. Sometimes my fingers crack just from flexing them so I cant always help it, but I will put in more effort to not going out of my way to do it and dealing with the pain until after the meeting. I think mine might get poppy more than other peoples

    8. Anonie*

      Do you want to risk being remembered as the colleague who cracked their knuckles during meetings? I guarantee this colleague is not the only one who has noticed.

      I worked with someone on a long-term multidisciplinary project and just saw her name come up on LinkedIn. All I remember about her is she constantly bit her nails at our meetings. Constantly. Every meeting. If she wasn’t talking, she was biting. She has an MFA and is a mid-level director, and that’s the only impression she made on me.

  103. CreepyPaper*

    Need some wording help from the genius readers of AAM please!

    Later this year I am due to have some life altering surgery – I’m getting an ostomy bag. Yay it will help my health, boo for being out of action for a long while.

    My company has a great sick leave policy and I’ll be able to wfh while I recover, so that’s no issues, I’m just not sure how to drop the ‘this is happening, things and me will be different after and I’ll need some accommodations… oh and I’ll be useless for a while’ on my team and my manager.

    Ack!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Talk to your medical team — there will be somebody who will be providing you with post-surgical checkups and recovery advice, and they should have scripts for this kind of thing.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        And that includes counseling services, too. Can’t hurt to get out ahead of the game for that stuff.

    2. Not A Doctor*

      “I’m having a scheduled surgery coming up in x weeks. After that, I’ll need to be out for recovery for n days, and then working from home for approximately b weeks. For the time that I’ll be out, Manager Mary and I have discussed who will handle any urgent requests on my projects.” (Obvs you will have to actually talk to Mary first to work out who’s doing what while you’re gone but that’s usually pretty straightforward).

      In terms of the accomodations, I’m not knowledgeable about what sorts of things you’ll be asking for, but my guess is that you probably don’t need to address that stuff in announcement type of way in advance. Remember people don’t need to know anything about your health or medical situation other than the very baseline practical knowledge that they need to continue doing their jobs. Good luck with the operation!

    3. WellRed*

      There are some companies that provide osteomyelitis supples that have peer coaching and I bet there are other support groups as well to offer advice.

    4. OftenOblivious*

      At my job, I’d talk to my manager in one of my one-on-one meetings and say that I had a surgery coming up. It was planned for Date and the recommended recovery time was Weeks and I might be able to work parttime/work from home/etc after Weeks (depending on what works for you job). If I didn’t want to tell my manager the nitty gritty (ostomy bag), I’d probably stick with somewhat vague language “Scheduled surgery” or “gastro intestinal issue” — but I’ve had managers where I think I’d be comfortable saying something like, “I don’t want to be TMI here, but I’m getting an ostomy bag. It’s generally good, but I’ll definitely need some recovery time and may need some accommodations when I’m back in the office, although I’ll know more when I’m on the other side.”

      Same with my coworkers — I’ve definitely had coworkers who just said they’d be out for X time. And coworkers who were more specific with what was being done.

  104. Sad Desk Salad*

    I would love some general ideas on how to pitch going full-time remote to my boss in the next year or so because I would like to move states to be closer to family. Additional context:
    1. I’m a lawyer, licensed in the state my company is in, and where I currently reside. I would keep this license active and continue to comply with my current state’s laws. I would seek new state licensing if needed, but I don’t believe it would be. Dual and triple licensing is not uncommon among lawyers.
    2. We were half-time remote pre-pandemic and were never required to come into the office unless we wanted to. We have been full-time remote since the pandemic and my boss has said to me that she doesn’t ever plan on going back to the office except occasionally. The one time we all got together, I tested positive for COVID not long after (I don’t believe my coworkers gave it to me and none of them tested positive, fortunately, but I’m a bit gun shy about getting together again.)
    3. We have employees all over the world already, and are accustomed to operating in different time zones. New state’s time zone would actually allow me to work more efficiently.
    4. We do not currently have a legal business presence in new state, but it’s a small matter to establish.
    5. Employment law is much more employee-friendly in current state than new state, so my company would not have to comply with stricter rules if I move.
    6. I don’t want to leave my job (I love it and I love the company), but there is a huge demand for lawyers licensed in my state currently, and I have headhunters reaching out to me constantly, many with fully remote positions, so I would have some options if my boss is a hard no on me moving. I don’t think she would be, since we are on the cusp of hiring someone in the same region (different state) than I want to move to.

    I will probably end up sending Alison this question at some point, because I have a lot more thinking to do before I bring it up to my boss. This isn’t a decision I’ll be making until next year at the earliest. But I thought the commenters would have some great ideas, and you’ve all been so helpful to each other that I think this is a good place to start. Thanks in advance!

    1. Sad Desk Salad*

      Oh, also, moving to the new state, I would be able to afford a larger home where I could have a dedicated office, and not have to coordinate with my also-WFH-spouse to get some privacy and quiet. I would likely be MORE productive with this move.

    2. LDN Layabout*

      I guess my main questions would be:

      Are there any issues with practicing in a state you’re not residing in?

      And no legal presence means they’d have to set up a nexus, deal with different rules (even if they were less stringent), right? Do you know if this has been done for other staff members before?

      1. Sad Desk Salad*

        This is the main issue I’m coming up against. I’ve done a bit of research and from a legal practice perspective, as long as you are operating under the laws of the state where you have a legal presence, your personal physical presence doesn’t matter as much. Let’s say I want to move from WA to MA. Our company is headquartered in WA and registered in DE (which is extremely common). We have no employees in MA, except me if I move there. As long as I don’t start practicing MA law with MA clients, I should be good to go.

        Establishing a legal presence and paying taxes in MA would be the big issue, I think, but we do that for new employees all the time, so it’s more of a logistical issue than anything else. I do new employee orientation for the legal team, and we’ve added employees from about 8-10 distinct states in the last couple of years. So I think it should be fine. My thought on this is to make my work product so high-quality that it justifies the minor trouble of establishing a nexus in a new state and adjusting tax withholding, etc.

        1. pancakes*

          I feel like there’s been at least one question here in the recent-ish past about how to make the case for permanent work from home. Check the archives.

  105. ScifiScientist*

    PPT presentation advise please!
    I have to give an important high level briefing to the top of the agency. This person is relatively new to the topic and also new to the agency so no one has any experience presenting to them before.
    Presentation will be virtual with slides. As usual I’m focusing on minimizing text on the slide, using photos for visual interest, relying on my notes to explain rather than type the content.
    I have completely lost any perspective or ability to organizing my presentation in a complete fit of nerves.
    Any recommendations for resources on putting together a great presentation?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I know the feeling, especially when you’re so entrenched in a topic and it feels like there is so much to know, so I’ve had success with the following recommendations.

      Bottom line up front (BLUF): figure out what’s the key message you want them to walk away with, and lead with that.

      I also recently read on here, maybe last Friday’s open forum, some advice I really liked and although I can’t remember exactly how it was phrased, it essentially was: WHAT is the issue, WHY does it matter, and HOW do we fix it. I’ve also seen that roughly as problem statement, background, and proposed solutions. Start with a slide for each to see how concisely you can capture it, and push the details to the backup slides.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I recommend having a “here’s what we’ll be discussing” table of contents at the beginning and then a similar summary part at the end, it really helps structure the presentation well. I also recommend that you decide how you want to handle questions and announce that at the beginning (“please hold all questions until the end” vs “I’ll be pausing throughout the presentation for questions so please wait until then” vs “if you have a question, feel free to shout it out”, etc). Doing so ahead of time will minimize interruptions and allow you to politely redirect and continue if need be.

      I also highly recommend giving your presentation ahead of time to someone who doesn’t know anything about the subject/has a similar level of insight to the person you’ll be presenting to if possible. A lot of times you can think you’re being very thorough but your knowledge bridges a lot of gaps you aren’t aware of, and presenting ahead of time will allow the person to point out things that might need further explanation, or just highlight questions someone may ask. You can tweak your presentation to cover those gaps, which will make it that much stronger, and you can be prepared for any questions someone may have or just put that information right into the presentation.

      And my final tip (which may be unnecessary for you but it’s my favorite to tell everyone) – always talk a lot slower than you think you need to when presenting. You want to slow down to the point that you’re thinking “oh man am I talking too slow?”, and that’s probably the perfect speed. If you talk like you normally do in a conversation, you’ll be talking too fast for people to absorb what you’re saying.

      Good luck!

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      For someone new, consider a FAQ sheet for acronyms, technical vocabulary, government bodies, and listing agencies.
      Bonus if it’s shared online so you can update it if the newcomer asks about a term you didn’t realize is unique to your organization.

  106. The New Wanderer*

    Gumption story of the week, courtesy of LinkedIn:

    This showed up in my feed – someone boasting about how their highly qualified mentee was a final candidate for a position and was rejected. The candidate responded with (paraphrasing): “I respectfully request that you reconsider” and SOMEHOW the company said, oh wait! Yes, you’re hired! The moral was, apparently, ask for what you deserve and you’ll get it.

    2. J.B.*

      I saw a LinkedIn post from a recruiter mad when people who had “open to new jobs” or whatever it is selected weren’t responding to him sending messages. And have you ever gotten spam in the ballpark of what you’re looking for?

  107. Nervous New Grad*

    If this is too heavy to put here I understand…somewhat related to the recent letter about the hire with a criminal record, but what do you do if it’s not a hire but just someone in your professional network? TW: sexual assault

    A few years ago I learned that a former TA I had while studying in college had attempted to sexually assault a colleague of mine. I know she pursued legal action, though I have no idea what the outcome was. Thing is, he was really a great TA, and I’m in some online communities where I keep in touch with students and alumni from our major and once in a while his name still comes up and people speak very positively about him. I agree as a TA he was excellent…but I just can’t ever look at him the same away again knowing what he did, and I’m sure others would be horrified if they knew as well. I also know my colleague is in these same online communities, although is far less active than I am so I don’t know if she just doesn’t see the chats when he is mentioned or does and actively chooses not to say anything. On one hand I feel like it’s not my place to say anything and it’s already been several years, and on the other hand I feel completely wrong to just let it go. Is it my place to do anything, and if so, what?

    1. soup of the day*

      This is tough. I think that since you weren’t involved in the event at all, I would lean towards advising you not to say anything. You don’t know the details, and if legal action was taken it’s possible that there are factors at play that you aren’t aware of. The incident becoming public might mean more trouble for your colleague in the end. That said, if you’re close with your colleague, you might think about bringing it up with her and asking how you can support her when things like that come up. I also think that if anyone asks you about the TA directly, you can tell them what you know. (This might also depend on how you found out – did your colleague tell you directly, or did you hear it through the grapevine? If it’s the latter, I would be even more wary about bringing it up.)

      1. Nervous New Grad*

        I heard about it directly from my colleague, in-person probably a month or so after it happened. She didn’t talk about any details, only that it happened. I haven’t seen her in quite some time and with so much time passed, and it obviously being a very traumatic event, I’m hesitant to bring it up to her without a strong reason to do so.

    2. Anxious Artist*

      In my professional community, it was an open secret that a well-respected individual had a history of sexual assault. Some community members started talking about it very openly. Then the accused sued a bunch of people for libel, and it became a huge messy court case. I would tread very lightly about public statements for that reason, especially if he wasn’t convicted of anything.

      Also, you really need to know what the survivor wants when it comes to spreading that information, which will probably be informed by the outcome of the previous legal action plus her own personal preferences.

      1. soup of the day*

        Agreed. Especially if you found out this information through the grapevine and not from the colleague herself (which may or may not be the case, I’m not sure!)

    3. fueled by coffee*

      I also think this depends on how much power you have in a given situation and what the risks of not speaking up would be. There are predators everywhere, but whether that’s relevant to a given context will depend.

      Being asked to be a professional reference for someone like your TA? I’d decline; I don’t care how wonderful they are as a TA, they’re morally bankrupt.
      Someone tells you that they’re interviewing for a job working under your TA? I’d disclose about the assault (keeping the survivor’s identity private, obviously) and warn them off — the consequences of not speaking up means potentially letting someone be put in a position where the TA could repeat the crime.
      A friend wants to go on a date with the former TA? I’d disclose, because the cost of not speaking up means potentially letting someone be put in a position where the TA could repeat the crime.

      But just generically chatting about the TA? Without knowing how your colleague feels about this, I don’t know that it’s worth speaking up. No one is in imminent danger, you yourself were not involved in the crime, and you don’t have the kind of power to enact structural change here; you’re just another commenter in these online communities. This is different than if people were already talking about the assault and you could use your voice to support survivors; it seems like they’re just generically talking about someone you once knew.

      Ending “whisper networks” about alleged predators will involve the people in positions of power (employers, supervisors, funders, etc.) taking survivors seriously and implementing real professional (not to mention legal) consequences for criminal behavior. Referencing anonymous allegations in an online chat group is not going to get you there.

  108. chatterbox*

    Happy Friday y’all! Today I’m looking for help/perspective on my attitude and behaviors at work. Specifically that I’ve realized over the last couple months that I’m a terrible complainer. I am constantly verbalizing negative comments about things being difficult/annoying/frustrating/etc. And not even in conversation but as kind of a running commentary in an open office. This isn’t at all how I want to present myself or the energy I want to bring to any situation so I really want to change it.

    I think it’s happening for several reasons. First, this is really my first time in an office job after almost 20 years of service industry work, where the culture is very much to bond with your coworkers by complaining about customers (often justifiably!) and generally having an us vs them mentality. Second, I’m fairly sure that I’m ADHD, though not officially diagnosed. I have the feeling that the hyperactivity aspect of it was previously managed through physically active work because now that I’m sitting at a desk all day I have never been so talkative in my life. I honestly cannot keep my mouth shut and it’s kind of embarrassing. Third, I’ve been struggling with a feeling of social isolation due to pandemic life and being fairly new to the city I’m in. And finally, I don’t feel supported by management in this position, so I’m often feeling overwhelmed and anxious that I don’t really know what I’m doing.

    I’m starting the search for a new and better job, but I really don’t want to take this attitude and these habits with me. Has anyone else dealt with this themselves and can share what helped? I can’t afford therapy right now, so I am tackling this on my own. Thanks in advance.

    2. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      It’s very tempting to give into this. Try and have the mantra that if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all. Just smile or nod without commenting, or offer something noncommittal like “I sympathize,” or “Sorry to hear that.” Aside from that, can you disengage from the chatter with headphones in the open office?

  109. Ginger Baker*

    Real talk, this has definitely been known to get me out of a slump before. I’m currently looking to transition out of supporting a particular person and while things are hopefully getting moved into place for that I’ve been thinking a LOT about what handover notes I need to create and making sure I am getting every single thing done so it’s nice and smooth when I (hopefully!) get to dump this person.

  110. drtheliz*

    How do you professionally tell people you’ve been not-fired? My contract was just not renewed, and I’m going to be asked about it at an upcoming project handover meeting.

    I was told “job went in another direction, funding not materialising”. I’m not sure whether it was true, Boss isn’t happy with my performance or Boss isn’t happy that I started a family. She definitely treated my maternity leave as a huge inconvenience to her, and I’m being replaced by my “maternity cover”. On the one hand, this is both disappointing and very annoying, and I’m in no mood for a face saving “other opportunities”. On the other hand, I feel like it’s super unprofessional to throw my boss under the bus.

    Advice?

    1. JelloStapler*

      Were you on FMLA? I may be wrong but thought that they had to hold your position for you and could not replace you due to your leave?

      Just keep it simple “My contract was not renewed, I was told it was due to funding” and leave it at that.

      1. PollyQ*

        I believe FMLA & parental discrimination only apply to regular employees, not contractors. But I agree with your suggested short & simple statement.

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        Yea I want to second that (with the sparse details provided) it sounds like your boss may have retaliated against you for taking fmla leave, which I’m pretty sure is illegal. You might want to look into your options.

      3. drtheliz*

        I’m not in the US. It’s essentially a loophole in German maternity protections: you have the right to take as much maternity leave as you choose after the first 8 weeks, you can only “book” it to the end of your contract (you book again for the new contract if it’s renewed) but then you’re not on maternity leave so you’ve got no job protection. It’s not generally considered “kosher”, but it’s legal (I have a friend on the Works Council, if it were actionable she’d have told me).

  111. Monday Merps*

    For managers and individual contributors who are on the other side of this: How do you approach career growth when one of your direct reports is interested in areas that are pretty different/far away from their role today?

    I have a team member who is in a highly specialized role—let’s say she’s an artisan teapot painter for our VIP customers. She’s a couple months in and very strong in this role. However, the two areas she’s primarily expressed interest in learning about are not relevant to her role role and with teams she won’t work with day-to-day. Additionally, there are people on my team whose roles *do* collaborate with those teams and for whom these areas would be more connected to their work.

    Long-term she could certainly change jobs within our team or at the company, but that would be 12+ months away. I always want to find tailored growth opportunities for each person on the team, but I’m curious how you all approach finding those opportunities when there isn’t a natural connection with someone’s current role. Thank you!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I always start by asking 2 questions:
      What is appealing about that work to you?
      What qualifications and aptitudes do you think you have for that role?

      Maybe this new employee doesn’t actually know anything about the work, but for some reason it just seems cool to her. Maybe she actually has the wrong idea about it altogether!

      1. Monday Merps*

        Those questions are super helpful, and that sounds like a strong approach centered on coaching. Thank you.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      I’ve had this. I started with a pretty open discussion that boiled down to “I need an artisan teapot painter and not an accountant so with that being said, I need you to focus on your paintwork and I’ll look for opportunities to get you working with the finance and accounting group, no promises that I’ll be able to make anything happen but I will support your pursuit of depreciation tables and balance sheets”

      Then I followed up on it. One thing I did was find contacts in the other department and arranged time for them to talk about accountancy as a way to get her interest known in the other group. I also would find stretch work that had overlap with the accountant group that fell within my team even though it wasn’t directly related to specialized teapot painting. lol… then in my case I supported the internal transfer by giving a deserved glowing recommendation to the hiring manager of the totally unrelated to teapot painting or accountancy department.

      I figured it was a win-win. I got time to plan next steps and grow someone else into the role, she got to learn more about different careers and ultimately found her spot, and we kept a good employee with the company.

      1. Monday Merps*

        I kind of dropped my metaphor halfway through my comment there, appreciate you picking it up! ;)

        I definitely want to be as transparent as possible in this instance. I appreciate the language and positioning you shared here, as well as the ideas for next steps. Thanks!

  112. I am Curious Teal*

    Okay, so some conversations I’ve had lately has me wondering if I’m misunderstanding some nuances around parental flexibility and accommodations/non-discrimination.

    Please note: I’m trying to understand. I’m not trying to antagonize, and I know there are like 2 or 3 people with an ax to grind about parents at work. Please don’t pile on here.

    So. My question/hypothetical scenario: Let’s say that Wakeen has parenting responsibilities and has requested flexibility from his boss. Jane is interested in developing her teapot design skills, so she, the boss, and Wakeen agree that she will take ownership of teapot design projects and to allow Wakeen flexibility while he keeps his other responsibilities. In taking over the teapot design, Jane demonstrates a great deal of leadership with her new responsibilities. When an opportunity for promotion arises, is it discrimination based on parental status to give Jane a promotion based on the leadership she demonstrated *because she gained those responsibilities due to Wakeen’s request for parental flexibility*? If Jane and Wakeen go up for the same promotion, can they consider Jane’s work on teapot design and her related skills and accomplishments, assuming they aren’t hold the fact that Wakeen requested the accommodation against him in the process, or do they have to completely ignore those accomplishments to be fair to Wakeen?

    Again, I’m just trying to understand what does and doesn’t count and not trying to antagonize anyone.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I don’t know all the ins and outs, but what you absolutely cannot do is say:
      “Well Wakeen is a parent so we shouldn’t consider giving him any increases in responsibility.” Because that’s classic mommy-tracking (sic).

    2. ecnaseener*

      IANAL but I believe taking people’s demonstrated accomplishments into account is always fine. The assessment of Jane shouldn’t be affected at all by *why* Wakeen stepped back — she should be judged by her own actions. If Wakeen had stepped back for any other non-protected reason, Jane’s actions wouldn’t have been any different.

    3. Mrs. Peaches*

      Yeah, if it’s not explicit discrimination there a lot of gray area in what’s illegal/policy violation/unethical. Ideally performance and professional qualification should be considered, caregiving responsibilities should not – so Wakeen’s work during the time he held teapot design responsibilities vs. Jane’s work. But I get why that may feel unfair to Wakeen.

    4. J.B.*

      At this point parents are treading water. I would absolutely expect that in the near term someone who stepped up would have the inside track on promotions. BUT that shouldn’t be always and forever, and you shouldn’t forget Wakeen’s previous accomplishments. It should also be based on measureable performance rather than availability 9-5.

    5. SomebodyElse*

      Of course they don’t need to ignore Jane’s experience to be fair to Wakeen.

      So to answer your question in the broader sense. Imagine the following scenario:

      Wakeen takes on a different role which accommodates more flexibility than the teapot designer role. -Win! Jane gets teapot designing experience filling the vacated role -Win!

      A promotional opportunity arises that utilizes teapot experience. Both Jane and Wakeen are interested -Win!

      Jane is evaluated on her demonstrated teapot experience gained while in teapot designer role
      Wakeen is evaluated on his demonstrated teapot experience gained while in teapot designer role.

      The candidate evaluated as the best fit is offered the promotion -Win!

      How is this unfair to anyone? What would be unfair is to tell Jane that you can’t evaluate her on work completed because Wakeen previously had those responsibilities. I honestly don’t know how that would even work. Sorry Jane, Wakeen called dibs on that experience he gets to use it first :)

      In theory it wouldn’t even be a discrimination issue (US-centric). To my knowledge there is no legal definition of parental discrimination (With the caveat that women aren’t disproportionately affected by hiring policies or work assignments- which could be a fine line) but the above scenario wouldn’t even come close to being a proveable (I don’t think that’s a real word, but I’m using it anyway) case.

      There sounds like a backstory on this question, that is honestly very intriguing on a Friday afternoon! I’d love to hear more.

      1. soup of the day*

        I think this is a good point. Jane taking on some of Wakeen’s duties temporarily doesn’t mean she’s better at the job than he is, but maybe it turns out she IS better at it when weighed against Wakeen’s pre-COVID performance. I would not hold the fact that Wakeen needed to request accommodations against him when evaluating which of them is more qualified, because that was out of his control, but if Jane is interested in the promotion I think it’s okay to weigh her skill level in that area against his usual skill level.

      2. I am Curious Teal*

        The back story is I had a friend who was basically in Jane’s position. She happily stepped up and used the additional work to develop skills and leadership only to find out that in the name of fairness, she was going to be evaluated as if she hadn’t taken on those responsibilities, because her employer viewed it as discriminating against her coworker for being a parent. Basically, she and her coworker were at the same level in terms of their position, but she was newer to the role so the coworker had more responsibilities initially. She took over the responsibilities and had them for about two years when the promotion opportunity arose, and her boss basically told her “we’re evaluating your work as if you hadn’t taken on those responsibilities.” Which basically erased two years of experience, and beyond not taking into account the teapot design work she took over, negated *other* accomplishments and skills gained as a result of the visibility of how well she was doing at the teapot design work.

        Like, she understood that the coworker had a few more years of experience in the role, and she would not have held it against the coworker had they been offered the job on that grounds, but the fact that she had three years of experience in her role at this point but they were treating a good portion of two years where she had grown and accomplished a lot as not happening seemed unfair to her.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Yeah, that seems completely ridiculous to me. Exclude those two years when rating Wakeen, sure – that’s no reason to ignore Jane’s very real accomplishments when rating her! It honestly sounds like a messed up excuse to pass Jane over.

    6. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      “Parental status discrimination” comes into play a lot with promotions that are based on time rather than performance, or when a company counts time away from work due to legally protected family leave against their performance. In the case you described, absolutely Jane should be recognized and rewarded for her work regardless of how it came across her desk.

      A discriminatory action would be demote/give a poor review/deny a promotion or raise they otherwise would have qualified for specifically because of parental leave (for example, in some industries you get a promotion every 2 years – you couldn’t tell a staffer “you were out on FMLA for 3 months so you don’t qualify for this promotion”). However, I don’t know if the law has anything to say about protecting parents who are downshifting at work or underperforming right now because they just can’t do it without consistent childcare or with constant illness.

    7. Purple Cat*

      IANAL, but I think it more comes into play in scenarios like:
      Boss: Jane, you can’t be promoted because you fell short on billable hours this year.
      Jane: But I was on maternity leave for 3 months….

      You can’t penalize someone for not hitting benchmarks if they were out of leave (maternity or medical).
      You also can’t do things like:
      Jane can’t be promoted, she has to take care of her kids.
      Bob should be promoted over Billy because Bob has a family to support and Billy is single.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I’d say it’s not discrimination because it’s based on actual performance. The part that seems to cause stumbling is how Jane got into that position to begin with. I’d argue that Wakeen asked for flexibility and agreed to giving up teapot design.

      One of the first things I learned when I started working was if I don’t do an excellent job, someone else WILL. And they will benefit from their excellent work. Notice parental status does not even come up here. Wakeen could have rocked the job when he had it and he could have potentially gotten that promotion. Maybe that aspect of the job did not appeal to him or maybe he was busying rocking another aspect of the job- which I think might be the case because management was most willing to work with his request.

      Even in a court of law it is exceedingly difficult to prove intent. Did someone intend to discriminate against a parent? Eh, there’s not enough here to prove it as Jane “showed a great deal of leadership”. So, sure, maybe the higher ups don’t “like” parents, but this example probably won’t prove or disprove that because it’s an example of one and because they have discernible/clear reason for promoting Jane.

      My suggestion to Wakeen would be for him to ask what he needed to do to get promoted himself.

  113. Cat on a Keyboard*

    I need some brutal honesty from fellow hourly workers.
    I am struggling to do 8 hours of work per day from home. I average about 5 or 6 actually working (including after switching jobs) and get distracted the rest of the time by non-work stuff. But in my industry we have to fill out detailed time sheets of which project, how many hours etc. at the end of the week, and it’s expected to add up to 40.
    For the past year or so I asked to go down to 32 hours a week citing burnout. But at my new job I really want to work full time and I need the money.
    A few friends say no one works a true 8 hour day and it’s fine, but they don’t have to track their time to multiple projects to bill clients like I do.
    I don’t have a lot of optimism that I’ll be able to make myself more productive. It’s always been like this, where I don’t have a lot of focus stamina and get easily off track – in the physical office I could kinda force myself on task a little better.
    I feel like my options are lie, or reduce my hours and deal with the financial and career growth fallout.
    So my question is, how much exaggeration/”rounding” is normal and expected, or is everyone else out here clocking 40+ hours of focused productivity?

    1. Rhymes with Bora Bora*

      I’m here in solidarity but don’t have a good answer for you. I’m salty about being hourly, it just doesn’t make sense for the nature of my job. Truthfully I can (and often do) end up piddling around or a few hours on the clock, but still manage to finish all my work, meet all my deadlines and exceed my goals.

    2. soup of the day*

      This is tough and my answer might not be the most ethical response, but for me at least, the brain breaks I take while working on a project are part of the overall project. If I don’t take breaks, the work will not get done. I’m sure most bosses would never see it that way, but it’s just the truth! So I wouldn’t feel guilty about labeling some of those distractions as being “work.” It’s not really a lie – you’re doing what needs to be done in order for you to actually do the work.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Unless your routine admin or “housekeeping” tasks are billable, then 40 billable hours is more than a 40-hour workweek. On my best day of focused work, I average 6 hours, but there is also nonbillable work that needs to be done and requires less focus.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Absolutely agree. When I had to track (although no one was billed), I was able to make my best guess for the week at the end of the week and I charged the brain breaks / real breaks to categories of admin tasks.

        40 hours of billable work is unrealistic. In fact my organization estimated on an annual basis to assume an FTE only worked 80% of 40 hrs x 52 weeks because of PTO, training, meetings with supervisors, computer issues, etc. Meaning they only expected 6 and 24 hours of work in an 8 hour work day.

        1. RagingADHD*

          There are professions, like law, where there are higher expectations of billable hours and overall hours. For example, it’s not at all unheard of for a first-year associate to bill 2,200 hours a year, which would be 44 billable hours a week with 2 weeks PTO.

          But they’d be working 60 hours a week to do that.

      2. Anonymous Luddite*

        Totally agreed.

        And if this is for tracking rather than actual billed to the customer, I will add that you need to ask is what counts as an hour. Unless they are real Letters-To-Allison category, the boss doesn’t want to know that you spent 7.3 minutes in the bathroom and 2.5 getting coffee. In many professions, the smallest slice of an hour is 15 minutes, meaning if you took 48 minutes to do something, that’s an hour of time accounted for.

      3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yes – we don’t do billable hours, but we are a production environment with monthly quotas. Our productivity matrix assumes a base level of 7 productive hours per 8 clocked hours. Then we also subtract non-productive time above and beyond, meetings trainings webinars etc. Ultimately they’re expected to produce a minimum average of four widgets per productive hour over a month.

      4. Cat on a Keyboard*

        I’m supposed to have a 75% utilization rate, but that’s including PTO, holidays etc. so it comes out to a higher weekly UR. I’m not in a role that requires a lot of “paperwork” type non-billable work, so the UR seems theoretically feasible in a 40 hour week. In my situation I’m moreso stuck in procrastination cycles of not actually working when I’m supposed to be, taking lots of breaks, etc.

        I’ve considered that I might have ADHD but I also have a lot of anxiety so I’m not sure stimulants are a great answer. I’ve tried pomodoro etc. etc. all the usual productivity advice but nothing really helps.

    4. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Are these billable hours? Because it’s rare that all workers in the the office or WFH actually sit and work for 8 hours straight per day. Aside from breaks and lunch, there are a number of tasks that take up time. If I think about my job it’s stuff like this that can eat up hours.

      Reading/Answering emails
      Computer restarts (can be 20-30 minutes to reboot after a crash or Windows update!)
      Organizing files / uploading files on computer
      Running a computer backup (I have large libraries of stock photos and documents)
      Meetings
      Pings/Chats/Answering Questions
      Being on hold
      Preparing notes for meetings and/or project updates
      Submitting invoices for vendors
      Searching for photos / editing photos
      Research: Internet and reading things for my job
      Corporate training modules
      Webinars (relating to our business – it’s part of the research)
      General housekeeping (like cleaning your work space, dusting computer, throwing away paperwork, etc.)
      Producing Actual Work – Deliverables

    5. TGI(February)*

      So my rule is I will never double-bill an hour, but I will block off my day in “designated” hours (so, 9-11, produce X ; 11-2, produce Z, 2-4, produce Y, 4-6, produce W) and not do anything else billable during that time. But if I’m sitting there thinking about task X, Y, Z, for a given quality of “thinking,” I count that. As long as I have reasonable progress to show for those blocks of time I think it’s fine.

    6. LondonLady*

      There are techniques like the Pomodoro technique where you work for 15-20 minutes then have a 5 minute break. Then have a longer 10-15 minute break once an hour. If a particular piece of work is engaging you or is super urgent, don’t take the breaks, but you use them to manage the normal workload.
      If you spend 45 minutes writing a report and 15 getting a glass of water, getting some air or sorting laundry, I would still bill that as an hour on that project.

    7. Koala dreams*

      I’ve heard five minutes of break time (bathroom, water, stretching) for every hour worked as a rule of thumb, but of course the actual work time and the billable time is two very different concepts! There’s always things to do that are necessary but less productive: checking email, small talk with coworkers, putting the desk in order, hunting for batteries for the computer mouse…

      Think of it like driving. You can’t expect to be driving at full speed the entire trip. Sometimes you get stuck at a red light or a stop sign. Sometimes you need to drive slowly because of the traffic situation. And you should make a few breaks at rest stops during the trip.

    8. AgencyLife*

      I’m at an agency so we have to track our hours — both billable and non. The truth is, I prioritize my billable client work (obviously) and keep meticulous track of that, but my client targets are low because I’m executive level. That leaves me many hours per week for non-client work, and yes, I absolutely play a little loose with that. (It helps that I’m very fast at certain elements of my job!) So, like, if I have a marketing document to write that’s non-billable, I will take my sweet time with it (barring any deadlines, of course) and stretch out the time I attribute to it. Say I could finish it in two hours — I would probably log it as double that, which gives me time to take breaks throughout the day.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like you tire out by hour 6 of your workday. That sounds pretty normal to me. I have had some very physical jobs that left me mentally and physically drained. I dunno how I finished the day.

      Some things to think about:

      Make sure you are taking your breaks. It’s no savings if you work through your break and still can’t show 40 hrs of work. Take your breaks. Consider staging your breaks so you have them when you need them the most.

      I liked to do the harder things when I first came in and felt a bit rested. I would put the easier things toward the end of the day. It’s not always possible to do this- but even doing it sometimes can make a difference.

      Sometimes people can perceive completed small tasks as a big deal. They overestimate how long it will take or whatever, make sure you get the easier stuff done at some point during the day. This will make you look like you are on top of things and it also can energize a person to see their own accomplishment.

      Speaking of a sense of accomplishment. If I do one hard task and get that done, then sometimes I will do 3 smaller tasks and fly right through them. It’s that sense of accomplishment from the hard task that energizes me.

      Last thought. Drink water. Hydrate. A thirsty mind/body will definitely have a hard time focusing and staying on track. Confusingly thirst can feel like hunger, so we can munch and munch and munch and wonder why things aren’t perking up for us. It’s because we are not hungry, we are actually thirsty.

  114. Meep*

    I resigned this week after nearly five tumultuous years. I don’t have anything lined up but I am feeling pretty good about it as the place was really affecting my health negatively.

    The straw that broke the camel’s back was kind of ridiculous. Basically, a coworker, Belinda was telling another coworker Bob that I was slandering him and used an email I sent her telling her that Bob knew what he was doing as “proof”. The email came after she had told his boss that he didn’t know what was going on and when I defended him, she sent a text to both Bob and myself implying Bob didn’t know what to do. It is a wild ride to go on, for sure.

    So I filed an official complaint as this lady was telling someone I was slandering him, trying to get me in trouble!(She also said I was trying to get Bob fired but she defended him to Fred like a freak.) Well, Fred, the owner, bless his soul, stuck his head in the sand once more not wanting to deal with Belinda. His exact words were “gossip and rumors aren’t harassment.”

    I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. A major client complained Belinda never gave her a product she paid for – nothing was done. Belinda had three client complaints in six months due to her ethics – nothing was done. I complained that Belinda was sexually harassing me – nothing was done. Belinda has had other harassment complaints – nothing was done. So I decided it wasn’t worth fighting for everyone but myself anymore.

    All my friends and family are thrilled!

      1. Meep*

        Thanks! I have a really great support system so I put out a call to my graduating class and already have a few leads. It also helps I am also a part-time grad student, rn, so I can change it to full-time.

    3. MsM*

      I hope Fred and Belinda are perfectly miserable together, and Bob finds the strength to move on soon as well.

      1. Meep*

        Me too. I really like Fred and think it comes down to his misguided sense of loyalty to Belinda, but it isn’t like I hadn’t already warned him that she was constantly throwing him under the bus. :/

  115. curious*

    Several weeks ago, Alison asked a question about whether the job market has changed and if employees really do have more leverage now, or something like that. And the comments section had hundreds of responses.

    Was there ever a follow up to that?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I think Alison used some of the responses in that thread to publish and article in Slate.
      “Companies Are Desperate for Workers. Why Aren’t They Doing the One Thing That Will Attract Them?” published January 24, 2022. I’ll put links in a follow-up comment.

  116. Sad Blue Screen of Death*

    So, I need a bit of advice. A year ago, I moved from private industry to Higher Ed. The job was sold to me as a more strategic/business-oriented position, which excited me as a fairly ambitious and fast-paced person. However, I quickly discovered that it’s really a new administrative position that they both don’t know what to do with and have no growth plan for. I get bored super easily in admin positions because I finish that kind of work very easily and quickly. Despite my efforts, I feel like a college kid doing a kindergartner’s homework.

    I have taken on every possible challenge I can, created important connections between previously siloed departments, and inserted myself into interesting projects. I even proposed some additions to my job description that allow me to take on more responsibility for a big project I’m involved in that will come to fruition next year. However, my boss keeps “forgetting” to review this despite being quite receptive to the idea, and doesn’t seem interested in providing additional pay for my proposal, which would double my workload.

    I like my coworkers (and I actually like my boss), but the job is just too easy, I get treated like a secretary (which I am not), and my mental health is going downhill.

    Is this just how being a higher ed staff member is (no growth, boring work, no recognition)? Should I throw in the towel or see what happens?

    1. soup of the day*

      Oof. Your mileage may vary, but that was in fact my experience. The department was really constrained when it came to how much they were allowed to pay me to begin with, no matter what experience I brought to the table, and there was no room for negotiation on raises. There were also strict requirements about job titles, so it’s not like taking on new responsibilities could have qualified me for a title change or promotion – they were only allowed to hire X number of Y positions, so no matter how many Y duties I took on, I couldn’t have my title changed to Y unless someone left and I applied for their job. I would have had to make mostly-lateral transfers to other departments in order to climb the ladder. It’s possible none of that was really true and my boss was just feeding me excuses, but overall there was this “everything we do is for the students!” attitude that made it feel like we were supposed do this work out of the goodness of our hearts and not because we actually wanted to be paid fairly. Taking on additional responsibilities helped me pad my resume for when I moved on, but at the time was just seen as what I was supposed to do if I REALLY cared about the students.

      1. AlabamaAnonymous*

        Good point! Especially for public institutions, budgets are often set way in advance and are very rigid, and job titles often have to fit within specific parameters.

    2. AlabamaAnonymous*

      In general, things in higher ed move slowly. Timing is often driven by the academic calendar, and the decision-making process often involves lots of stakeholders from across the entire campus. That can be a real adjustment from people coming to higher ed from industry. Everything can seem to be in slow-motion. The things you asked about–growth, boring, recognition–often depend a lot on your immediate supervisor and your institutional culture. At a previous institution, there wasn’t a lot of room for growth, and my job was pretty stagnant. Where I am now, I’m in a position with a similar title but have lots of opportunities for new projects and professional growth. So that part can vary widely.
      Do you see any people around you who have moved up internally into a leadership position? If lots of the leadership were promoted from within, that’s a good sign. If they tend to always bring leaders in from the outside, that’s probably a sign that you won’t be able to move up.
      Do you have any peers (even in another area) that you could chat with to get their take? They might be able to give you some insight into institutional culture to help you figure out if things are just moving slowly or are at a true standstill.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      It doesn’t HAVE to be that way in higher ed. I started in my higher ed workplace as an administrative assistant. I’m now in a specialized role, heading a team of my own with two managers under me and individual contributors under them. At least in my place of work, different departments across campus can have VASTLY different cultures and treat people in VASTLY different ways. It might be worth exploring what other opportunities are available in different departments on campus.

    4. Camelid coordinator*

      I think getting extra pay for the new work you might take on is a non-starter. In my higher ed context it is possible to have a role reviewed (and the salary adjusted) after a while (=years) of doing work at a higher level than the work of the original job description. Also, a new role like yours can take a while to develop fully in higher ed, and a lot will depend on your ideas. Lastly, does it seem like your new project will result in a lot of new work for your boss in the short term? Or are they putting out so many fires they don’t have time to think strategically? Can you break down the review you need into smaller chunks so it actually happens? Or wait until a quieter time, usually a break in the academic calendar?

  117. Aurelia*

    So, I’m leaving my role later this month. Do folks have any ideas re: a goodbye gift for a manager? He’s not the reason I’m leaving for sure. Ordinarily I’d give a bottle of wine or a nice-ish pen, but working fully-remote I can’t exactly drop a gift on his desk… Would appreciate any ideas!

    1. Hlao-roo*

      It’s hard to go wrong with a note detailing what you learned from him and why you liked working with him. Handwritten generally has more sentimental value but because you’re fully remote email is good too.

      1. OftenOblivious*

        Yes, yes, yes! Write a note. It doesn’t have to be long or brilliant, just write down a few things that you liked/learned/etc from him.

    2. Malika*

      Can you send a gift to his home address or the office? You could arrange a hand-written note and something like a box of chocolates if that is what he likes. If you have seen any hints as to what they like you can go for a variation of that object or something from the brand it is from. As a going away present i once gave a cookie jar from a brand the manger really liked. When i visited the office a decade later, he still had the jar next to his coffee machine. It was cool to see that he has kept my gift for such a long time!

  118. ExecutivelyDysfunctioning*

    Can I get advice on a mid-career switch to a billable hours based, client facing role, especially with ADHD?
    I am in accounting/finance, but have always worked in-house. I have also always been salaried. So, if I work less effectively for part of a day, I can work more hours to catch up as needed. I have ADHD. My top level focused work (via hyperfocus) is WAY faster and better than most people’s, but my unfocused work is, well, not work at all. I am a top performer at work, and no one notices that there are hours or days where I am getting nothing done.
    I am taking a new job, and will be providing accounting/finance services to clients, by the hour. I will also get paid by the hour. The necessary, enforced structure and accountability will, I think, really help me stay on task, but I am also kind of freaked out about switching from a salaried, 50+ hour a week job to one that actually expects you to get your work done in ~40 hours.
    Any pointers on time management, organization, focus, or just making that mental shift from salaried, work all the time, never turn off mentality to keeping work in work hours and everything else in the everything else hours?

    1. soup of the day*

      Jeez, you could be me. This is exactly my approach to work! I mentioned this in a similar comment above, but for me, the unfocused “work” is a necessary part of the overall work. In order to do 30 minutes of top-tier work, I need to zone out for two hours. Overall though, it would still take someone else four hours to do the same amount of work, so I try not to feel bad about it. Not really advice, just a mindset shift. Don’t feel bad for taking breaks or “goofing off” if needing to do that is part of the process that allows you to produce good work, and don’t feel guilty billing for that time (as long as it’s within the parameters of what a reasonable amount of time would be.) Of course, I’m not sure how ethical this approach is, but if the work can’t get done without those breaks, then I feel like they’re a necessary part of the process.

  119. Rose is a rose is a rose*

    Hi all, I recently got a sweet job in my field with a 10 minute commute! A former supervisor of mine gave me a great reference which I think really helped my new boss chose me above the other candidates. I want to thank my reference; is a handwritten card the best way to do that?

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      I think a handwritten card is lovely! Even an e-mail expressing the same sentiments would be great.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          Thanks! It amuses me that I know a lot of people whose interests include both traditional folk music and knitting, and so are likely to get the two sources of my handle.

  120. JustaTech*

    Rant:
    If you are an organization that orders a lot of different things form a lot of different suppliers in small quantities (not manufacturing type amounts), for the love of little green apples – Have A Purchasing Department!

    Why I started at my company we had a purchasing department – half did manufacturing and half did all the rest of the million-little-things orders you do for labs. And then Evil Corp fired the not-manufacturing side and it’s been a nightmare ever since.
    Now each little group in my small department has to order their own supplies (each on a separate PO), which means that for one Mega Supplier we will have 6 accounts. And each Mega Supplier has their own set of hoops for you to jump through to make an account so that you can just order the darn thing off the website. (Except some places would still rather you emailed your order in, and it would not surprise me if some would really rather you faxed them.)

    Then you have to go into an Excel to say what you bought and how much it cost (which you’ll need to update several times for things like shipping and taxes) and then at some point the invoice will show up and someone will email you asking you to approve the invoice.

    Is this rant inspired by the fact that I have spent two days trying to set up an account, had to talk to 4 different people and I still won’t be able to set it up this week? Yes, yes it is.

    Please, Purchasing is a department for a reason. They’re good and organized at this stuff. Asking the rest of the staff to take it on because “it’s just like ordering from Amazon” is insulting and false and how mistakes get made.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Ha! I’m reminded of how there used to travel departments. And then it was decided that each employee could do it themselves. It’s not easier or faster that way (not with all the rules we have to follow) but it’s cheaper for the company because they don’t have to pay salaries of the travel department while it eats up a little bit of time of each employee who has to plan their ultimately costing more hours than when the professional travel planners did it.

  121. Orbiter*

    Is “informational interviews” for college students – who are still trying to figure out what career to pursue – a thing?

    My eldest graduated HS last year with honors and a high GPA, still missed the cut for our area public university, is currently getting core AA classes done at the local state college, and is sort of generally aiming for “business” but doesn’t really seem fired up about it and I get the impression she’s really worrying about not having a passion or a plan. She has taken some online “what career is right for you” quizzes and things but nothing has been very inspiring. What can she do at this age/stage to figure out what she might like to do?

    We realize the best time for all this would have been in high school. Unfortunately, between the pandemic disruptions and the overall environment at her high school, none of this was really discussed or encouraged. :(

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The easy informal way to do this is to have them talk to adults in their orbit. The parents of their friends, the family dentist, etc. There ought to be a bunch of different professions and industries they could explore.

    2. Reba*

      This is a thing! Does the college have a career office or alumni office – access to that network would be great, as it could expand beyond the areas covered by your network. Even if she doesn’t have specific jobs in mind, she could seek interviews by broad sector (like education, financial services, tech, media non-profit). And I bet there are friends, colleagues and acquaintances you know who would be happy to do this.

      re: the quizzes and such. When I have the chance I always try to ask younger people to envision, not what job they want, but how they would like their future life to be. Where to live? Move a lot or stay in one area? What kind of lifestyle? Engrossing work, or lots of free time? And ask what kinds of career paths would be compatible with that. Look around for people you know or see who have some of those things, and what their paths have been.

      and my 2 cents re: “best time” — this is really, really ok. I think it’s important for young people to know that they haven’t missed the boat here! She, and you, don’t need to feel regret about where she is! Yes, on the one hand college majors are consequential, but on the other hand they… aren’t. It’s a school and a major, and life after high school and college is long. Anyway, I think your young person has made a great decision to take some hopefully low-cost credits while thinking about it, rather than jumping into a potentially very costly 4-year program (which for many is more like 6 years). Debt is definitely consequential. Good for her!

      1. TGI(February)*

        Yeah I totally agree that it’s not necessary to future happiness and success to find what you want to do in high school! Some kids do, but lots and lots of people don’t. I’m sorry our culture pushes people to feel like they/their kids are failing if they’re not locked in before they turn 18. I don’t think you can really be all that clear-eyed about most careers until you have more real-world understanding!

    3. BEC Mode*

      I am really, really passionate about my job and the value we provide to the company as a whole and to individuals and departments within the company.

      I am an internal auditor with a Master’s in Accounting.

      I get to touch on and learn about literally every corner of my company, including IT, accounting, finance, sales, marketing, manufacturing, retail stores, purchasing, payroll, logistics, and more.

      I would be [bleeping] thrilled to be invited to an informational interview by someone who doesn’t know what they want to do (maybe because they don’t know the details of what’s out there *to* do), but is kind of leaning toward “business”. And I wouldn’t care if they were 19 or 49.

      I didn’t even know that Internal Auditor was a job until I was in the 2nd semester of my Junior year of undergrad. None of those online quizzes ever offered up “Internal Audit” as an option.

      Also, at the Fresh/Soph level of college classes, everything is “general business”. On purpose. People need to be exposed to a bunch of different options and modes of thought before being able to pick a specialty.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      This is a thing she could reach out to people on LinkedIn for! Most people are happy to help with short informational interviews. Some magazines, especially ones aimed at teens, also do interviews with professionals in different fields and day-in-a-life YouTube videos. There are so many ways to get the info a traditional informational interview would normally provide, especially in a post pandemic world.

    5. CatCat*

      This is absolutely a thing! For students and also folks looking to shift careers. The school’s alumni office should be a good resource for this. Linked In is also a good resource to see what types of things folks are doing and see if they might be available for a 15-20 minute chat about what they do and how they got there.

    6. Cedrus Libani*

      Does she have access to alumni of her high school / college? My high school has a robust alumni Facebook group, which sees regular posts along the lines of “anyone here in Career X and willing to talk to me / my kid about what that’s like?”.

      Also, there’s no substitute for actually getting out and doing stuff. I know it’s rough to find internships right now, but still. Even if it’s fetching coffee at your hairdresser’s cousin’s car dealership, it’s better than sitting at home and theorizing. You’ll figure out what jobs are out there, what it’s really like to do them, and what you do and don’t want from your career.

  122. LondonLady*

    A small issue but it really bugs me. We have weekly department Zoom meetings where each team member presents headlines from their current work. We are a diverse and widely dispersed team of subject experts. It’s an important checkin for the whole team. Most of us pay attention or at appear to do so when our colleagues are speaking but a couple of them are very visibly disengaged except when it is their turn to speak. One is visibly and sometimes audibly answering emails, calls, etc. The other yawns and closes their eyes, or goes wandering about. I think this is not only distracting but unprofessional and rude. To add to my annoyance they are the two contributors who tend to ramble on when it is their turn to speak, while most of us take the trouble to craft crisp summaries. All of us are peers so I have no standing to say anything to them. Our head of department who chairs the meetings is very busy without me adding to her workload. Should I complain to her or just let it go?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Set your screen to Speaker View instead of Gallery View so you don’t have to see them, and let it go. If you were in an environment where you had no ability to block out the distraction, it would be different, but that is a problem you can solve for yourself.

      If you were going to complain about anything, it would be the rambling. But in order to do that, you should define how the rambling negatively impacts your work, or the team’s overall ability to work together. Does it make the meetings run over time? Is there important information getting lost in translation due to a lack of clarity? Etc.

    2. PX*

      If you wanted, you could offer to take over chairing the meetings and then set some expectations around behaviour? But otherwise I do think the only thing you have standing on is the rambling – not being engaged etc is something that needs to come from above. But as far as the rambling goes, I would raise it and perhaps ask the chair to be stricter about it.

  123. Anonymous Luddite*

    Low stakes question at the end of the day:
    I am getting (yet another) add-on to my current job: training videos.
    I’m good at scripting and shooting, but I’ve always had someone else to do the editing.

    Anyone have opinions on Cyberlink Power Director vs Adobe Premiere Rush?
    The ultimate goal are several small (<10 minute) videos.
    Thanks in advance!

    1. RagingADHD*

      My husband who edits a lot for work wouldn’t recommend either of them and thinks they’re about the same. (Exact words: “They’re both crap.”)

      He recommends DaVinci Resolve, which is a free pro-level package with lots of tutorials, and he thinks it’s well worth the trouble to learn.

  124. Quick Chat*

    Oh Mylanta. So my supervisor sent me a “quick chat” meeting request on New Years Eve and then met with me on 1/3 to tell me I have a bad attitude. We have basically ignored each other since then — silence seemed like the safest option.

    Well, my annual review was this week and he marked me below average in nearly every category, citing my “poor attitude” and lack of “teamwork”. He justified it by calling it a 6-month problem. He didn’t have much explanation for why he hasn’t raised it until January when I questioned him. He used a lot of anonymous “quotes” about my attitude (which, IF they are not fabricated, could also be read as people genuinely concerned about what might be bothering me — see cancer in multiple parents, pending bankruptcy, and children with serious mental health issues). He also misrepresented situations and flat-out lied about his involvement in some.

    So that’s awesome. I like most of the people at the company and would like to transfer away from him. I can’t leave this slander in my file for new supervisors to read, right? So do I file an appeal for re-evaluation or just ask that a note with “my side of the story” be appended?

    Even if I leave the company (which is appealing), I don’t want to leave lies in there for future reference checkers and busybodies to find. I’m really emotional about this — what’s your uninvolved point of view?

    1. Reba*

      Ugh, how awful.

      I agree you should not just leave this in the record. How is HR at your company? Is there a coworker there whom you could discretely ask for their take on how to proceed? Given that the boss has already lied, what could a reevaluation look like if he is still part of it? I think a question for your approach to this is to what extent you want to tackle the the fact that he lied in the document — that’s serious and it wouldn’t be wrong to bring that to HR’s notice or your grandboss, but depending on your company culture may not serve *you* well.

      If/when you do leave, you could get an agreement in place with HR that they would only say the dates of employment or whatever.

    2. Unkempt Flatware*

      Phuck that. “Attitude” is not an action or a behavior. Do not let this slide and keep demanding a solid example that you can act on. A bad attitude is often used to describe the behaviors of females and more specifically, women of color. It is not quantifiable at all. Unions win all the time against employers using that bullshit term because arbiters will generally not allow a “bad attitude” to fly as an explanation for discipline or firing. I’m sorry this is happening to you.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I had a boss kick me like this when I was already down. I went to HR and had a longer chat. I described what was going on at home as briefly as possible. Then I said, “these things are my problems and I will deal with them. The reason I asked to speak to you is because my boss said X, Y and Z. Given my givens I think that is wildly inappropriate and I felt that someone at this company should be aware that this is what a manger is doing/saying. If he is treating me this way, then it is likely he is treating others this way. These types of stories go around and it becomes known that the company thinks this is okay because they don’t intervene.”

      Yeah, I was pretty emotional too. It was one of the few times in life I had to jam my fists in my pockets because of what the boss said. And I cried a lot. If you think HR will listen to you respectfully, then you owe it to yourself to go to them. Part of the way out of this and all the pain inflicted is to tell someone who can do something.

      1. TGI(February)*

        I also think it’s a very reasonable request that you be allowed to file an official response to your bosses evaluation – and in fact most evaluations have a place for employee response. Especially if you’re leaving anyway, this is something you could request from HR when you give notice (along with the reference thing mentioned above). The trick will be to ask an impartial third party person to help you craft an impersonal, just-the-facts statement that doesn’t sound bitter, which I realize is very difficult when emotions run high. It should simply say something like, “in the past year I experienced a series of family tragedies including X and Y. I met all my career objectives including (accomplishment) (accomplishment) (accomplishment). My supervisor has stated that I have “a bad attitude” but can’t provide any actionable steps I could take or any specific details of what he’s referring to. I have asked for examples and a chance to improve but he has been unwilling to work with me.”

    4. pancakes*

      I think the best way to proceed here is going to depend on the policies and processes your employer has in place around reviews. Is there an employee handbook or union agreement or anything in writing that outlines the appeal process, if there is one?

  125. I love Sunflowers*

    I’ve been in my current job for about 18 months. I truly love my job and a majority of my co-workers. However there is one issue that was at first small but has grown into this ongoing problem that is slowly working on my nerves any time it occurs. At the moment my team WFH. When IMing my colleague is condensing and rude in their messages whenever they are contacting me. At first I’ve just focused on trying to be professional and politely with making sure to clearly explain my side of any situation (and if necessary apologize to keep the peace). Basically having a mix of professional but firm when it comes to my replies to this individual. Plus, I’ve made sure not to send any emotional replies to the rude comments in their sent messages. However this is illustrating a negative aspect of their personality when it comes to working on projects and I’m wondering if there is anything else I should do at this point? or should I keep doing what I’m doing with my firm but professional replies?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I have to check in. Sometimes people say “rude comments” and when I hear the comment it’s actually over the top or even reportable.
      Let’s start with protected class. Anything about your gender/beliefs/race/ethnicity and so on?

        1. Amaranth*

          Is it possible they are just bad at IMing? If you can see how they chat with other people, is the general tone and officiousness the same?

  126. Mimmy*

    This might get buried but I have some questions about Microsoft Teams.

    First question: Which version of Teams do you prefer – The web app or the desktop app?

    Second question: I just started an internship at a college (School A) that primarily uses Teams for meetings and student contact. My issue is that I use auto-captions/transcription to accommodate a hearing / processing disability. Zoom, which my regular job uses, has been good with this regard. Teams… not so much. I cannot figure out how to get captions to work in the web app. No one else can either. It could be that my access to Teams is connected to the school at which I’m pursuing my degree (School B). Why School A can’t get me (and my classmate, who is also interning at School A) direct access is a mystery.

    Teams is definitely not as accessible as Zoom, that’s for sure!

    1. Reba*

      That sounds frustrating! I am far from a Teams expert, but I first would say that School A not getting you squared away with Teams is silly. Do you have a login/separate email for each school? I have been added to multiple teams at different organizations so I know it’s not impossible! I wonder if they have different levels of IT access for interns or something, but still! You can tell them that without Teams access working properly you cannot do your work!

      I also suggest trying the desktop app — in general I find it more reliable than web, so it’s worth a try if you haven’t already.

      If you can’t get this resolved, do you think you could speak to your supervisor about changing their Teams-based procedures based on the need to accommodate your disability?

      1. fueled by coffee*

        In addition to this, I also wonder whether the college’s Disability Accommodations office might have some insight into how to get captions to work — I can’t imagine you’re the only university-affiliated person having this issue!

    2. Lore*

      The web app is terrible—it’s lacking a great many kind of essential features and while I don’t know for a fact that transcriptions are one of missing features, that seems like a good bet. If you can get the desktop version, do it. The other thing to check is whether the permissions are set up properly—I couldn’t screen share for a while on my work laptop because I hadn’t properly granted access to the camera and some other system folder, because I needed admin access to my machine, which I don’t have. But it didn’t tell me that was the problem, it just refused to behave when I tried to share my screen.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I had to get the desktop app for an interview last week and I got it for free installed in just a few minutes.

    3. Alexis Rosay*

      I would suggest approaching the school’s IT department for help. My partner works in an IT department running a Microsoft-based environment, and it’s definitely part of the IT team’s job to make sure that Teams, SharePoint, etc, work well for everyone and meet their needs.

    4. IT person*

      I realize this is late but – our IT team has been looking into accessibility and Zoom is definitely better than teams. Just reading transcripts after the fact seem nonsensical. I would start by pushing to get the live transcripts issue resolved, but you might need to ask for an accommodation for Zoom. We have a few groups using Zoom for just this reason.

    5. Nightengale*

      This just came up in my local disability group, it appears that captions do not work with the web version of Teams. So no one (except the people who make Teams) are going to be able to make that happen. The internet does imply captions are coming soon.

  127. Crow Shoes*

    After more than 10 years in a job where me:organization has always been an uncomfortable fit, during which I’ve taken on increasing responsibility but with no corresponding increase in title or pay, I met last fall with my boss and grandboss to ask about being promoted to reflect that increasing responsibility. (The job would stay the same but I would receive a title change and a pay increase.) I was told I was “too negative” to be promoted, that “nobody wants to work with you,” and they strongly hinted that I’d better become uber positive immediately or else. They didn’t offer any SMART goals at all, even when I asked for some, just said that “there had better not be any more reports from team members about [my] bad attitude.” Since I spend quite a bit of time building good working relationships with colleagues in different departments, I was puzzled and worried. My work mentor suggested I ask for some training, and accordingly I started a web-based course on communication for managers.

    My attitude isn’t “bad,” but there is a strong Tone Police culture here, and I had been directing my effort toward producing good work and dealing (after hours) with some tough personal issues. I stopped doing that. I gave Being Positive my all for months. Even working remotely most of the time (for now, return-to-office plans keep swinging on-again/off-again) I feel that every email, phone call, Zoom meeting, Skype chat with colleagues is being scrutinized for tone – because I still have no clue what specifically was wrong before. Now I’m doing passable work and lighting up with a big neon smile even if I’m just answering the phone with no screens on, lest I sound unenthusiastic. I upped my exclamation mark and emoji usage in emails, except with external partners where it could make the organization appear silly.

    At my next meeting, they applauded this change in tone and told me to apply for promotion. They also invited me to work on a big organization-wide project, and I accepted the assignment. But I understood well what they were saying at the first meeting: I don’t fit in here and I have to not be myself if I want to stay. To be promoted, I will have to be even more not myself. And so I’m looking outside, talking with my network about a career switch, taking a class, etc. Yet I have been approved to apply for promotion, and it’s going to look very weird and negative if I don’t follow through. I have to write up a multi-page document persuading upper management to give me the promotion. I’m having a hard time even getting started. How do I get there?

    2. Quick Chat*

      First, kudos to you for successfully implementing Project Buttercup. I will use your success as an example as I have been penalized for lacking a fake smile.

      My suggestion is that you kill two birds with one stone. Write a kick-ass cover letter for the job, padding it with your unparalleled knowledge of the company and lavish praise for the uplifting culture. Submit that for your promotion and then use it as the base to apply for new jobs. If you get the promotion, it will put you in an even stronger negotiating position for a new role!

    3. River Otter*

      I am very sorry to hear that. I have been in similar situations, and it is very hard to deal with. The unfortunate truth is that if nobody wants to work with you, you have to make changes even if you think that you don’t need to.
      In my case, I both started a new job and made changes. Fit is a very difficult thing to interview for. At my last job, it seemed like I was a good fit during the interview, and I very definitely was not. I started making changes, and I brought those changes into my new job with me. I really recommend that you do the same. As stressful as it is to constantly self monitor, the fact is that getting along with other people is part of our job. When you perform your new level of palatability, think of it as being no different from performing a new level of excel macro or something like that. It is just part of the job function that they pay you to perform, it is not a new part of your personality.
      I think it would really help you to work on things like emotional intelligence and emotional regulation so that you can identify when normal work or life stressors might be making it difficult for you to continue performing palatability. I definitely have days where I am a hairs breadth away from snapping bc someone is being difficult with me (like the guy who took a week to get back to me on something time sensitive), and I work very hard at managing my reactions because I know what the end result will be if I let that irritability interfere with my new job skill of being pleasant.
      It also helps if you are able to spend time doing those things that you enjoy. I am a little tired of the term self-care, but it is easier to self regulate if you have regular positive experiences.
      I hope things work out!

      1. Crow Shoes*

        Thanks for that thoughtful comment. I never did find out who the “nobody” is who doesn’t want to work with me, but I might not have made it clear here. The day we had this initial meeting, I had spent much of the morning coaching a colleague in a new-to-her role, telling another colleague how much I valued her work, and assuring another one “you can do it!” and none of that was fake. In a new role, I will make sure that genuine positivity is more visible, which I see I haven’t done sufficiently.

        But also, I need to work at an organization that has some flexibility regarding performative hyper positivity. I am not the only one feeling the intense pressure to dissemble – as I said, New Colleague quit after less than a year, and they weren’t the only new coworker to quit after less than two years here. (New Colleague is at a different organization and encouraging me to apply there because the culture is more genuine, but I think I’m ready for a much greater shift, a new career direction.)

        I’m hoping I am able to find the words soon to ask for this promotion. At least knowing I have a new direction ahead of me helps with the despair a little.

  128. Crow Shoes*

    Also – I do not supervise anyone, but I might (someday) if I’m promoted, which is why I chose that particular training.

  129. Anon again*

    I posted last week about my raise not going through, and being pissed.

    Fuller context: I signed the offer letter outlining the new title and pay rate in early December, and started the new job 1/3. Last Friday was supposed to be my first payday at my new rate, which is 50% more than what I was making before.

    I got a response Monday from HR passing the buck to Payroll. Tuesday, someone from Payroll said “no, we didn’t get the info HR was supposed to send us, we’ll make it right next payday.” HR admits they didn’t send the info until the Monday after my shorted check.

    I am trying my hardest to be civil, but between this, botching my precedessor’s transfer (HR botched his new hire forms, which cost him an internal transfer), and the dismissive response to a polite question asking for a follow-up on hiring for a job that’s been vacant since September, I already have an eye on the door once I get certified in July.

    1. L. Ron Jeremy*

      Tell them that everyone makes mistakes and that you’ll be looking forward to your next pay period where they make up the pay increase that they missed last time.

      1. Anon again*

        I would, but I anticipate getting my new “normal” pay and zero back pay. If that happens, I plan to stay home until I am made whole and reach out to a lawyer.

        1. pancakes*

          Have you not asked them about their plans / timeline for the back pay? What did they say? Any lawyer you see is going to ask you that. If you are thinking that you will simply stay home rather than make arrangements about back pay with them you probably ought to talk to a lawyer because it’s far from clear that your employer will agree that’s a reasonable remedy, or that they’d prefer you do that rather than give you the back pay.

          1. Anon again*

            I was told by Payroll via email I’d be made whole next paycheck. My fear is that they will pay me what I should be making for the most recent time pay period, but I will not get back pay.

            Given how hard I had to push to even get that promise, on top of the issues multiple people have had recently, I have zero trust in the people who botched this.

            1. pancakes*

              They don’t sound very trustworthy, but if they promised you the back pay you’re owed I think you have to give them a chance to pay it. Even if they don’t, I would be concerned that simply not showing up would be taken by your employer to be you quitting your job, not you trying to send a message to Payroll. It seems extremely unlikely to help sort out your payroll issues in itself, or even to send them any sort of message, since it doesn’t seem that you report to either them or HR? Hopefully you will be paid what you’re owed in the next check and it won’t be necessary to consult a lawyer.

              1. Anon again*

                If push comes to shove, I would be taking PTO, not no-call no-showing.

                My employer is a state gov agency, so my trump card is getting certified in July and immediately transferring to a different agency. I’m the third person in my role in two years, and I started five months from my predecessor’s departure.

  130. Chi chan*

    I know it’s late but I just got done with a test. I feel good about it although I think I won’t get the scores I need so I have booked another test. If I need to, I can cancel it later.

  131. Help!*

    Has anyone here had any success in getting a bullying boss off your back with the help of HR, please? Or can they share their experiences?

    I have a big meeting this week with HR and my big boss (who has been bullying me ever since I made one minor, common Newbie mistake and is probably trying to either extend my probation or get rid of me, despite the fact that my work is just as good, or better, than that of my colleagues, which is painfully clear to everyone) and I’m a bit nervous.

    This is a government job that I worked very hard to get, and I am not losing it because my manager is in serious need of a holiday and has no idea of what the requirements and standards of my job actually are, as she has never done it and does not have the skills needed for it.

    1. Sabine the Very Mean*

      My glob you’ve just described my situation in state gov. My boss told me she hates women on my first day and that I make too much to be trained. Fun. She’s in 3 protected classes so I have no faith she’ll be even disciplined. Im sorry you’re dealing w this.

  132. DJ Abbott*

    Is it rude for interviewers to leave their video off?
    I’ve had several interviews from both staffing agencies and regular employers. Almost all of them have been virtual, with one or two just phone calls.
    This week I had interviews with two different employers. In both I was interviewed by two people.
    One of those seemed like an especially good job and both the interviewers left their videos off. It made me more nervous to be talking to blank gray squares and watching myself in the only video screen.
    I feel a little put off by this. Do you all think this means anything? Does it indicate their culture is cold and rude, or anything like that? This job would have the worst commute also, when we go back to the office.
    Meanwhile the other employer, whose interviewers turned their video on and is downtown, have scheduled a second interview.
    What do you all think?

    1. Squeebird*

      Hm. I would be put off, though I am usually quite understanding of the many reasons people might have for keeping their video off!

      We’ve hired folks through the pandemic and have always kept our video on. I think, if I was an interviewer and had to keep my video off, I would at least say something about why. “Sorry, I’m in a spot with slow internet and things will work a lot better if my video isn’t on!”

      I don’t know if it would be a deal-breaker for me, as an interviewee, but I would take it as part of a whole. Were there other things about the interview that didn’t feel great? If everything else was good, I might chalk it up to a quirk of office culture (perhaps they treat Zoom calls more like phone conversations?) or of those two interviewers. But I don’t think you’re wrong to feel like it was kind of odd.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        Thanks! All they said was they were both working from home. Everyone else I’ve interviewed with has been working from home, and they turned on their video.
        The only awkward thing was I felt I might have put them off by being too outgoing and enthusiastic. I can’t be sure how they reacted because I couldn’t see them.

    2. I love Sunflowers*

      I can understand how uncomfortable that would feel having to speak with a blank screen during your interview. But I would not consider it any indication about an employer’s culture if they left their videos off. Because there could be a number of reasons why the interviewer left their videos off during your interview.

      For example, my friend had this happen with an interviewer a few weeks ago and they ended up explaining how there were tech issues that led to their camera not working. I’ve also heard of some individuals not using their cameras because of physical disfigurement, etc.

      Here is a tip that one of my friends passed around to me when it came to handling “blank screen interviews”. If the calendar invite does not indicate everyone’s camera/video will be on. Before the interview process starts consider asking the interviewer(s) “Would you like to have our cameras on or off before we get started?”. This way everyone is on the same page before the interview starts.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        Thanks, I’ll keep this in mind. They didn’t make any explanation of why their videos were off.
        So if I ended up turning mine off and then we would have three blank gray squares talking to each other… why bother with zoom at all? Why not just have a phone call?

  133. I Ship It*

    I recently interviewed for a promotion and have been determinedly *not* chewing my nails to the quick thanks to nerves. I got a sort of update yesterday that I should be hearing from HR within the next week- hopefully with an offer. I really like my employer and hope that I am able to take my next career step with them instead of having to go on the hunt for new employment- my benefits where I am now are stellar, and I would very likely be losing benefits if I went elsewhere, but I absolutely do not want to stagnate in my current position, and that’s where I am heading after almost five years in the same position.

    1. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Not from me but if you can post your question as soon as the Friday thread goes up next week, you’ll get tons of good advice. Also try searching terms in the website’s search engine because Alison herself transitioned to freelance very successfully.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Search for the post “is it crazy to quit my job to go freelance in 2021?” from August 19, 2021. There should be lots of tips in the comment thread there.

  135. Anxious Bee*

    I think I just need someone to tell me what I already know, but going to a for-profit online school for my RN to BSN is a bad idea right? They are just so cheap and so fast. I already have a job as an associates degree nurse so I’m not too worried about how it’s affect job prospects. I am part of the first generation of students who need to get a BSN legally here in NY so it’s not a huge part of the hiring culture to need a BSN, at least not in my hospital. The real worry I have is I want to get my masters and become a Nurse Practitioner. Does anyone have any insight? I’m pretty sure I should suck it up and use my job’s very generous tuition reimbursement at a standard 4 year- but the idea of a BSN in a year or less is so appealing.

    1. Business Librarian*

      Don’t go to a for-profit especially if you want to go further. Check out regular institutions and see how many credits they’ll accept from your experience and your earlier education. You might be surprised how long it will take. Or see if they have a program that will end with you getting your masters sooner. Many schools will work with you to make it easier than you might think. Good luck!

    2. Anonie*

      Seconding that you avoid a for-profit online school at all costs.

      If you’re in the US, make sure the program you go into is fully accredited (I think it’s ACEN and CCNE) and that the university itself is regionally accredited (e.g., Higher Learning Commission but there are others). Otherwise, your credits and possibly your entire BSN won’t transfer or possibly even be recognized by your future MSN or DNP programs.

    3. JelloStapler*

      Run.

      Their accreditation is often suspect or vulnerable, so no. Does your job cover the cost of getting the advanced degree? Is there a hospital-based program nearby that can offer a happy medium (cost-effective but with a good reputation)?

  136. Freddy*

    Super late question, but, I’m applying for a job at a big, old, bureaucratic company (that ironically thinks it’s a young, hip, “disruptive” company, but that’s not directly relevant :-) ), and on part of the DocuSign employment application, they asked for my current manager’s name, title, and email. I just put “…” for that, but the internal recruiter noticed and asked if I could provide them. I feel weird about doing so as part of the application process.

    This is for a fairly senior job, BTW. My boss, who I’m on really good terms with (we go out for drinks and dinner every so often, we’ve met each other’s SO’s, etc.) has mentioned that he interviews regularly and expects other people to, because while he wants to keep and develop people, he knows nothing lasts forever. But, all that said, I still just … don’t feel comfortable with putting it down this early on in the process. I am more than glad to share that with a contingent job offer in hand, but not just as part of the interview process. Is that all in my head or nah?

    1. Anonie*

      I think the fair and standard compromise would be to provide the information, with the caveat that your current supervisor is not contacted before a certain time in the process (e.g., reference check, condition of employment). If you were in talks with a recruiter to possibly apply for a job, I would consider it too early in the process, but, IME, it’s fairly common during the actual application process to list information about your current position, including supervisor. I would just be up front with the recruiter that you don’t want your current org contacted and/or your job search discussed with your current supervisor until/unless you’re at the reference check/offer stage. That’s normal. I’d also say that stonewalling at this point could throw up red flags on their end.

      1. Freddy*

        So, my rebuttal to that would be that I’ve shared everything else, just not my salary or current manager’s name, title, and email. I’m in good standing at my present job and interviewing for a pretty senior and specialized role, so if they’re going to take a hardline stance of “no boss email, no interview,” I don’t know how I feel about that. The way I see it, is that my current job is secure, the insistence on getting my current boss’ details rubs me the wrong way. I understand pulling a contingent offer at that stage, I just don’t want to open myself up to a situation where they contact my current boss prior to offer/background check. I’ve heard plenty horror stories about that. Unlikely, sure, but if it did happen it could be pretty bad for me. I just see no upside and a significant, but unlikely, potential downside.

        They’ve been weirdly pushy about other things, too: like every time I speak w/ the new company, they ask me if I’d be willing to relocate to one of their other offices. I always say no, and they usually get pretty persistent with their “well why not?”-ing. Again, I may be negative and anxious, but that makes me wonder. For example, what if there’s a planned, but not publicly announced, reorg where they want to shift the people with my job function to a different timezone?

        I dunno, it may be my ambivalence towards this opportunity. I would take an offer I felt is better than my current employer, but that bar is presently pretty high.

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