open thread – April 1-2, 2022

by Alison Green on April 1, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

    How do you know if you’re over reaching on a stretch job? I have an interview with the hiring manager on the 12th for a job that would be a significant pay increase, even the bottom of the pay range listed is $20k more than I currently make. Everything on my resume is factual, but made to sound a bit more impressive. Only two of my projects was a full scale new process, all the rest ranged from very minor defects to adding validation requirements to existing processes, but those validations save the company money. The job description for this position doesn’t list any technical requirements, it focuses mainly on industry experience and soft skills, both of which I have. My first screening interview was actually one of those on asynchronous ones where you record yourself answering questions via a link they send you. The questions were a bit more in depth than your typical HR screen so obviously my answers were good enough for an in person interview, but I feel like maybe they think I have more technical skills than I really have. Since I haven’t had a chance to ask any questions, I really don’t know anything other than the job description.

    My current job I got much the same way on soft skills vs the technical requirements. I actually didn’t apply for it, I applied for a different one but the recruiter felt my soft skills was a better fit for the job I have now. Truth be told, I really didn’t think I’d like it. It seemed way more advanced than anything I’d ever done, I had no idea what Agile meant and I never worked in SQL. They said it really don’t matter, I’d learn. So I took the interview, and immediately clicked with the team and the recruiter was right, the position was a much better fit than the other one. So maybe this one will be fine too? I really don’t know if I’m overshooting here, since this is about two levels up, or if I have imposter syndrome creeping in. I don’t know what to ask in the interview to feel that out without making it sound like I can’t do the job.

    1. TimeTravlR*

      I think you’re at a place where you should continue with the interviews. You will get a better sense of what they need and where your gaps might be. But don’t sell yourself short. You obviously had some learning for your current job, why wouldn’t it be the same for the new opportunity?
      I also suffer from impostor syndrome so I am coming at this from a place of experience!

      1. Sick Leave Drama*

        Yeah it’s their job to determine if you’re a good fit for their needs, IMO your job is simply to be honest in the interviews that follow; maybe don’t pad your actual experience from here out, and be explicit about what you haven’t done. You can ask pointed questions like, “how important is technical skill X for this role? I have some experience with comparable skill Y but have not been the lead staff member on that.” Remember, it doesn’t actually serve you in the end to be placed in a role you won’t succeed in (which I think you understand well).

        1. Same Thing*

          This is what I did in a similar situation. The job description was awful and included skills that I didn’t have (in-depth technical development skills). I asked at each stage – I want to be clear that I don’t have those skills, but here’s how I could learn or here’s where my skills do exist – and I not only got the job, but I have been promoted multiple times since. Sometimes job descriptions are aspirational and sometimes they’re practical – as long as you’re honest about where you’re at technically and how you could gain those skills if needed, I think you’re fine.

          1. Fran Fine*

            I’ve done the same thing in job interviews and have been hired and excelled in the role. The hiring managers appreciated that I was self-aware and transparent enough to be upfront about what my learning curve would look like, and they were able to get me the help I needed in the focus areas of concern once I started.

          2. Quinalla*

            Same, I always make it clear that hey, I don’t have the skill for X, but I am excited to learn and possibly discuss relevant experience like it or for you for sure how you’ve had a stretch job like this in the past where you jumped in a learned quickly.

            It may be an overshoot, but as long as you are upfront with them about what skills you need and maybe ask them, what technical skills does your ideal employee in this role need, etc. it is really up to them to evaluate if you are what they need.

        2. Koalafied*

          I would also suggest asking questions like: how long do you expect it to take for the person in this role to be fully up to speed and operating independently? Or: what are your expectations for this role’s output/achievements in the first 6 months and first year?

          That will give you a sense of whether they’re looking for someone who they can throw into the deep end and expect to draw on their own previous experience to know what to do, vs someone they’re expecting to spend time training up. Even if they’re thinking it’ll be training primarily in “how Company does X” and they expect you to already have skill in X, it’s a lot easier to pick up X from company-specific training supplemented by your own exploration/study, than it is to pick up X if your manager is a Z specialist who is trying to hire someone who knows X so well that she can point the new hire at it and never have to think about X again.

      2. Varthema*

        I agree. Be honest during interviews and trust them to weed you out if you don’t have the technical experience they need.

        1. Momma Bear*

          Agreed. I had a job where I didn’t know x and y but they were looking for someone with related skills who was trainable. Let them determine how much of their job posting was a wish list.

    2. Sunny Day*

      Two questions I ALWAYS ask in every interview are:
      What are some of the greatest challenges that the person in this position will face?
      What specific skills, qualities, and qualifications are most important for someone to have in order to be successful in this position?
      The answers to these questions help me decide if I think I would be a good fit for the position (and vice versa).

    3. Esmeralda*

      Remember, it’s an INTERview. You are both finding out if the fit is good.

      Don’t make the decision for them! You don’t know if it’s too much, if you don’t have the skills, if you won’t fit, if it’s too much of a stretch… That’s why you’re interviewing.

      The other thing is, it’s rare that an employer is going to find that unicorn who has every single skill listed.

      Finally, I notice that you are GUESSING about the actual skills needed. You are ADDING skills to the job description. Technical skills are not listed — do you have actual information that leads you to be 90% sure that they require these skills but for some reason didn’t list them? Probably not…

      If they want technical skills, they would probably be in the job ad. If they want technical skills that aren’t in the job ad, they will ask about them in the interview. If they don’t bring them up, you don’t have to.

      If you want to be sure, ask an open-ended question about it — “could you tell me about the technical skills you expect the person in this position to have?” When you ask this question — let them answer! don’t list a bunch of skills you have/don’t have. Don’t downgrade yourself in asking the question (“I’m wondering about technical skills because I don’t have x y z/I’m not very skilled at a b c…). Ask the question and **wait**. And if they list some that you don’t have, DON’T just say, oh I don’t have x y — ask if they provide training. Express your confidence in being able to get up to speed on x and y. You can point to your experience with your current job — when you took it, you didn’t have experience with a or b, but you learned a and b within a month/whatever.

      Before the interview: Make a list of likely skills and a list of skills you are just guessing maybe are possibly required — go through it. Which ones do you have? Which ones not? Which ones could you learn? This will help you to be ready to answer accurately and confidently.

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        Thank you. This is very helpful. I’m guessing because when I say there’s no tech skills listed, I mean none. Not even the basic Word/Excel ones but based on the listed duties you’d need some background in project management and some data type tools. But these are great things to ask.

        I was very clear with my current job my lack of tech experience, but what they really needed was someone who could roll with constant change, calm and focused under pressure. And really that’s when I do my best work, so I got the job, learned the tech stuff and have been successful at it.

        1. a tester, not a developer*

          In my company, project managers are not expected to have very many technical skills – their role is to herd the dozens of cats that are the techie people at a reasonable pace and in the same general direction. Program managers (we use that to mean an expert/senior PM who oversees all the project managers working on different parts of a really large project) have even fewer technical skills in my experience; they spend a lot of their time working on messaging to the project sponsors and other high level executives.

      1. Kes*

        I mean, lots of people think they know what agile means but that doesn’t mean people’s definitions of agile agree with each other lol
        (and I include myself in that)

        1. Momma Bear*

          This. All those buzzwords mean slightly different things to different groups. Implementation varies.

      2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I use Agile as a synonym for Wrong. Going through my first Sprint hasn’t really changed that.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            At the moment, I’m bitterly disappointed I couldn’t opt to have my fingernails pulled with pliers instead of attending my first Sprint Retrospective.

      3. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        I don’t think within my company we have the same definition of Agile, lol. I had to Google what scrum or sprint was because that’s not what we call it, but I was like oh, I do that! So it’s on my resume because that’s the buzzword most want to see.

      4. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

        In my mind, Agile is just one sort of project management system, So if you have a good track record of breaking projects down into smaller pieces and keeping them on a schedule, your skills will transfer. You might want to ask what specific software they’re using to implement it. Jira might look like a beast, but it provides a lot of structure for its end users.

        1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

          I think even with those tools, every company uses them a bit differently so having a basis is good, but you’ll still have to learn how New Job wants you to use it.

    5. kina lillet*

      It’ll probably be fine. You mention your resume is factual but sounding a little more impressive—i’d expect that to match or exceed the technical requirements based on what you’ve said. Namely: the job description is experience-focused; soft-skills focused; they’ve looked at your resume; you have technical experience; most importantly you have experience being confronted with a technical challenge and learning how deal with it. This last is the most important. You’ve done it once so you can do it again!

      That said, if you continue interviewing and they simply don’t give you clarity on what the job would entail, or you feel like it wouldn’t be a match, that’s legit! Just don’t abandon ship, because it sounds like so far this would barely be a stretch job for you, but more a good fit.

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        Thank you for this! I am probably forgetting my early days in this role, vs now when today we encountered an issue and I’ve already researched, gotten a dev to investigate with an easy fix solution. I think I’m underselling myself a bit too because not a lot of my projects are super large or sexy, but small, boring changes that fix problems. Problems involving clients money (think banking or stock market stuff) so tiny fixes can really eliminate huge risk and liability. I need to be more focused on that.

        Since my first interview was so weird (I’m not sure how I feel about these “on demand” one way video interviews) I’m coming in a bit more blind than I usually am when meeting with the hiring manager.

        1. Hillary*

          You sound like someone I’d love our PMO to hire (I’m a product owner). My number one requirement in a program manager is emotional intelligence, number two is project management skill. Someone who understands the value of small, boring projects is fantastic. The hard part of a project is people, tech is usually just work.

          I’m not surprised at the salary jump – this is a very in-depend field right now, especially for folks with a proven track record. It sounds delightful and don’t let it create doubt.

          1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

            Thank you so much for this! I feel a lot better about it. Just be me, and honest and whatever happens, happens.

            I do like my current job, but obviously making more money would be nice, and we’re going through an acquisition as well. Always a good time to look elsewhere. The new company actually was very, very impressed with our system when we did the GAP analysis. They are 10x as large as we are, but have way less advanced features.

    6. Kes*

      I think others have already given good advice and it is worth asking questions to get a feel for what’s needed and how comfortable you would be. But definitely don’t sell yourself short, especially when you haven’t even interviewed yet and you have experience in successfully learning and growing into jobs. Also lots of the time when you are switching jobs you’ll be looking to grow as well and take on something not just new, but a step up as well so feeling some level stretch is not necessarily a bad thing and may just mean you’ll have room to grow into and in the new position

    7. aubrey*

      If technical skills were required they would have listed them, I think! In technical areas it can be much harder to find someone with the necessary soft skills – technical skills needed for the specific role can be taught in non-technical-focused roles. Teaching really technical people soft skills can be… challenging.

    8. Wonderer*

      I would just caution you not to get nervous about technical needs and blurt out that you’re not that good! If the technical skills are important, they will ask you during the interview. Focus on what you know and what you’re good at. If you end up with a couple of weak answers on something where you’re not qualified – well, that’s a sign that maybe this wouldn’t be a great position for you.

    9. just a thought*

      My current technical job the manager hired for attitude instead of technical knowledge. About half of us are learning as we go but everyone has a positive attitude and is good about asking for help and getting feedback. He said he much prefers that to working with technical geniuses that stick to what they know and can’t get along with others.

    10. TheRain'sSmallHands*

      Something from my husband – his company asks a LOT of technical questions. But they are looking for you to say “I don’t know” REALLY. They want to know that you can identify your own weaknesses, that you won’t just make stuff up, that you will clarify and not assume, and that you will go look for answers when you don’t know. That doesn’t mean they don’t want you to know a lot of stuff, but they aren’t looking for the guy who answers every single technical question with misplaced confidence.

    11. JSPA*

      sometimes, being able to look past the technical details (and the weight of years of other people’s assorted overblown assertions and the random associated flummery) to notice what basic, sensible processes are missing or weak, are exactly the requirements. It’s not wrong to continue on the presumption they are indeed looking for exactly that!

      So long you are on the alert for hints that they presume you have skills you don’t have–so long as you ask them to lay out their assumptions in that regard–don’t take yourself out of the running before they take you out.

      I mean, don’t let “I am the bearer of common sense” go to your head, either! If someone tells you that a fix you want to add is literally impossible (or even highly inadvisable), or they look at the ceiling and make “that face,” take an in-depth listen, and dig around.

      But any number of companies have focused on flash over reliability. Someone who considers cross checking / check sums / validation a necessity may be all it takes to massively improve performance of systems designed more as proof-of-concept than as a mature, finished product.

  2. KMC244*

    I have a close friend from college who is job searching, and my company is hiring for a position that she’s interested in and pays much more than her current job that she hates. I think she would love this position, but the problem is I’m not certain that she’d be a good fit from things I know about her personally. She’s a job hopper- we both graduated from the same school 6 years ago, and in that time has changed jobs about 5-6 times. (Although by leaving the shortest stays off her resume, it looks as though she’s had 3 jobs). She gets bored easily and wants to move to higher level work, but doesn’t have the patience to work in entry level positions for long. She also seems to hate every boss she’s had- she either dislikes their personality or management style. But I think this pattern shows that the problem might be with her, not her past bosses.

    She really wants me to recommend her for this position, but I’m worried that if she doesn’t work out here, it will reflect badly on me. I know there’s a chance she won’t get along with my manager who will also be her manager… simply because she seems to dislike anyone with authority over her. I also suspect that she isn’t as experienced in this field as she thinks she is, having not worked anywhere for more than a year-ish. This position is a step above work she is used to doing and probably would need a lot more training/hand-holding than she should at this point. And again, she has made her resume look good… but I know information that my company won’t see.

    I want to help her but I don’t want to recommend her when I know that she might not stay long or perform well. If I tell her honestly why I don’t want to do this, I’m sure she will get upset with me. What should I do?

    1. Observer*

      Can you pass on the resume and then have an off the record conversation with your manager where you lay out what you know, both good and bad, without exaggerating?

      Also, is it possible that she’d do better at this higher level job than on the lower level ones she’s been in?

      1. Rosemary*

        This is what I would do. Pass on her resume, and then off the record share your concerns with the hiring manager. Then when she does not get the job… well, you did what you could but another candidate must have been a better fit.

      2. WoodswomanWrites*

        This is comparable to what I did. A former colleague submitted her resume and let me know she had mentioned me when she applied. I knew she was not the right fit for the job and told the hiring manager. As it turned out, she didn’t do well in the interview process all on her own and knew that, but either way it didn’t reflect on me because I didn’t forward her resume myself.

        I suggest you tell your friend to submit her resume directly rather than have you pass it along. The hiring manager can ask you your opinion, and you can be confidentially honest about your friend’s application. That removes the pressure of your having to share the resume yourself.

      3. TheRain'sSmallHands*

        I’ve done the same…. in fact, I’ve interview people I know (as part of the interviewing team – not as the hiring manager) out of courtesy – they often manage to show their hand before I need to step in with “but I don’t think they’d be a great fit.”

        The husband does this all the time, as he works for one of those companies a LOT of people want to get into, and very few people are a good fit for. So he submits resumes for people into a system – that actually has the referrer grade the potential hire as part of the referral process.

        1. Rosemary*

          Oh that is a good idea, to have the referrer rate the candidate they are referring (I presume this info is kept confidential)

          1. TheRain'sSmallHands*

            Oh, certainly. And as I understand it there is a rating system (1 – 5) but also room to make notes…. “I found Steve to be a difficult manager to work under, but I think in the role he is interested in, he will make a valuable individual contributor.” Now the hiring team can look at that and say “yeah, this guy really isn’t management material, but he could be good in this role.”

    2. Dino*

      Do not recommend her. Say you can’t because you haven’t worked in a professional position with her. If your manager asks your opinion, be honest. But try to stay out of it otherwise.

      1. KMC244*

        Actually not entirely true… we did do a volunteer program together (not sure if that counts for much) at the time, she did struggle with certain technical aspects even then. But so did I, as we were students and inexperienced.

        1. STLBlues*

          I think this is enough of a gray area that you can stick to the “haven’t worked together” excuse. Volunteering can be fantastic, but also (normally) has less demanding requirements than a job.

          (Obviously there are exceptions, but generally speaking, I think volunteer jobs would be more lax.)

          1. Fran Fine*

            This. Volunteering together isn’t really the same as working together, so you have an easy out here should you choose to take it, OP.

        2. NotMy(Fancy)RealName*

          “I have not worked with her since we were students, so I can’t speak to her professional accomplishments.”

          1. Varthema*

            Honestly, if you say the above with a conspicuous lack of a “but” afterward (“…but in my experience she’s wholly reliable and a joy to work with!”) that’ll speak volumes without you having to directly throw your friend under the bus, so that’s good news!

        3. Bagpuss*

          Well, I think you could still say that you’ve never worked with her in a professional position, only even briefly in a volunteer program when you were students 6 years ago.

        4. Oxford Comma*

          That doesn’t sound like a professional position though. I think Dino has the right solution.

    3. TimeTravlR*

      I had something similar happen a couple years ago. I was fortunately not asked to make a recommendation by this person, but I did tell my manager that I know them and if they would like to ask me about them after they interview, I’d be happy to discuss. My managers take when she interviewed my friend was that she was flighty and disorganized (not good qualities for the position), which is exactly what I would have told my manager. Basically, the “problem” took care of itself without me needing to say anything at all.

      1. Jora Malli*

        I think this is a good approach. It lets your manager make their own impression of your friend, but also offers them the opportunity to seek you out for more context if they have questions.

        KMC244, you say that her resume is strong, but that this job is probably a step up from the work she’s done before. It’s pretty likely that if your manager is a good interviewer, she’ll see all of that for herself and won’t need to circle back to you.

    4. STLBlues*

      You shouldn’t recommend her — you haven’t worked with her in a professional capacity, so you couldn’t speak to the work regardless.

      Tell your friend that you can’t be a referral because your relationship is friendly, not professional. To smooth that a bit, you can tell her you’re fine with her listing your relationship as a friend!

      If she does that, there’s a good chance your office/hiring manager will ask about her. Just be honest – for good and for bad. She’s a good friend + (positives) but you’d be worried about hiring her because (negatives).

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      Any chance you could have an honest conversation with her? That it seems like she’s looking for a job that lets her do high(er)-level work quickly and this isn’t a position where she would find that. Then it’s not a matter of your opinion of her, it’s more about the job not being the right fit.

      Also, how much of a recommendation would you be providing? Because if it’s a “I throw their resume in the special pile but the company takes it from there and I’m not actually recommending them”, their actions might not reflect on you at all. If it would involve you personally recommending them, that’s a different story. But either way, if you’re fully honest with your boss about what you’ve shared here (“I haven’t worked with her in a professional setting, from what I know of her I think she’d be capable at the job but I’m concerned about longevity or culture fit – she seems to get bored easily and moves around from job to job a lot,” etc), then you are giving your boss all of the information you have, it’s on them to decide if they want to proceed or at least be more thorough in the interviews with her.

      And if you warn your boss about potential issues, and then those exact issues come up, it’s not on you – your boss knew the risks and made the decision with their eyes open.

    6. EMP*

      Tell her you’re not the one making hiring decisions (this is true) and she can apply but the decision to interview her is out of your hands.
      I would also tell your manager, if she does make it through whatever screening is in place, the reasons why you don’t think she’d be a good fit. But if you want to keep that private, you can demure and just say something like “I’ve never worked with her and can’t say one way or the other how she’d do here”. If she doesn’t work out, I don’t think that will reflect badly on you at your company if you haven’t tried to sell them on her good points.
      What I would *not* do is go to bat for your friend, knowing she’s probably not a good fit. Both of you could end up disappointed.

      You don’t have to tell your friend exactly why you don’t want to recommend her – that’s a work issue, and it sounds like you’re friends outside of work and it would be best to keep it that way. Just be neutral and don’t promise anything.

    7. Varthema*

      Maybe you could tell her that you don’t think she’ll get along with your manager? In the spirit of “warning her away”? And then if she presses as to reasons why you could maybe gently press her on why she’s never had a manager she liked, if that’s labor you’re willing to take on.

    8. L'étrangere*

      You might lose a friend if you don’t recommend them. But think of how it might go if you do, and you find yourself in the middle of a fight between them and your own manager. Will you take their side and potentially get yourself fired along with them, or just lose a friend then? Quite possibly both.
      The solution might lie in how good your relationship is with your manager. Can you say yes to your friend and agree to recommend them, but make that recommendation lukewarm with HR, and be privately totally honest with your manager? Especially be specific about the bits where the resume is incomplete or massaged beyond recognition. Then explain to your friend that you don’t have much influence at all about hiring, that the new person seems to have much better teapot design skills, that your manager was uneasy about hiring friends potentially unbalancing the team etc. Hopefully that’ll be the last time they’ll ask

    9. NeonFireworks*

      Happened to me. Friend had been enthusiastically looking for the right fit but job-hopping because it kept really not working out. A few entry-level positions at my organization opened up and they hired her on my recommendation. It was excellent for about six months, and then it became increasingly obvious that as an employee, she was frequently sullen and cranky. At one point, she made it well known to almost the entire organization that she didn’t want to be told what to do. PIP one week, fired outright the next. Her work history made much more sense to me after that. Unfortunately, going through this ripped our friendship to shreds.

    10. Bagpuss*

      I think to her, you say you can’t recommend her because you haven’t worked with her , but that you wish her well.

      You can also perhaps give her more information about the role – perhaps flag up the things you think would be negatives for her .
      And if you are worried about how it will affect your friendship, could you say to her “I can’t recommend you because we haven’t worked together so I’m not in a position to do so, but I can mention to my manager that you’re applying” And do exactly that – mention that you have a friend who has said she is planning to apply.

      If your manager then asks for your input, stress again that you have never worked with her but would be happy to speak to your manager after the interview if at that stage they think it would be appropriate, so they can form their own impression first.

      Other than the job-hopping, do you think there’s a changes that she is better then it appears – perhaps that you are her go-to person to vent to so you only hear about things that re annoying her on a bad day?

      I’d agree that you shouldn’t recommend her, in the circumstances.

    11. Confused By People*

      Not entirely the same, but I had an industry contact reach out to me about an open position at my company. I always had a positive experience working with her and she didn’t specifically ask for a recommendation, (which I wouldn’t have felt comfortable doing as we didn’t work super closely) so instead I gave her helpful advice on how our companies interview process works and let her know what the position she was initially interested in was like responsibility wise, etc. I then just sent my HR an email stating X had reached out to me about this opening, you will likely be receiving an application from them. That way my HR knew they had worked with us before and had reached out, but I wasn’t giving a recommendation. Outside of thank you’s I didn’t hear any more about it and they weren’t hired.

    12. DG*

      This happened to me, but I didn’t realize until AFTER my friend was hired that her many complaints about workload, workplace drama, prior managers, etc., were more of a reflection of her.

      This friend came in a couple levels below me, on an adjacent team. She found an “in” with a small clique of employees who were frequent complainers and general morale suckers – I tried to politely tell her to reconsider those friendships or at least expand her network to other people, but I was obviously unable to give her all the context I knew as a manager (like how the guy who loudly complained about a lack of advancement opportunities applied for a promotion to another team only four months into his current job, while he was on the verge of being on a PIP).

      She also happened to work for someone who was known to be one of the best people managers in the company, whose direct reports all had amazing work-life balance. Of course this did not stop her from referring to her manager as a “slave driver” (UGH) when the manager asked her to change the format of a document or work until 5:30 on a couple of occasions.

      I moved to a different department not long after she started, and thankfully the company was large enough that I don’t think most people were aware of my connection to her. But it’s made me so reluctant to make referrals ever since.

    13. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I wouldn’t recommend her at all. Even if you have to tell a white lie, it sounds like it might blow back on you, and better to keep the friendship and workplace separate.

    14. Jean*

      Don’t mix work and friendship. It’s unlikely to end well, especially given what you know of her history and patterns of behavior. You can just tell her that you prefer to keep a strong boundary between those 2 parts of your life. If she doesn’t like that, then that’s not really your problem. It’s a perfectly reasonable position to take.

    15. Purple Cat*

      Can you just “refer” her as in, “Boss I know someone who wants to apply” without actually “recommending” her to your boss and saying ‘Hi boss, this person will be great for the job, you should talk to her”.

    16. learnedthehardway*

      I think you can mention her to the hiring manager and provide her resume, and also mention your concerns. I’ve done that before – I’ll email the resume and request that the hiring manager give me a call so I can fill them in on some of the context. Or I email the resume and follow up with a phone call myself.

      In a case last week, I did exactly that and told the hiring manager that I would turn her off, based on our conversation. (The contact / candidate isn’t strong enough for the role and doesn’t have some key pieces of experience.)

    17. KMC244*

      Thanks for the advice everyone! To be more clear, by “recommend her” she did mean pass along her resume with a good word to my manager about her – not by listing me as a work reference. I told her to apply and that I’d mention to my manager that a friend applied… I may just tell him vaguely that my friend applied but I haven’t worked with her professionally. I still don’t know how it would reflect on me if she’s hired and doesn’t work out.

      1. Observer*

        I may just tell him vaguely that my friend applied but I haven’t worked with her professionally.

        If you stick to that, and you are working with reasonable people it shouldn’t reflect on you at all.

    18. Meg*

      Honestly, I’d be hesitant to work with any close friends, even without all your concerns about her leaving. I think it has too much potential to change the friendship, especially working in the same department. When I was hired at my current job one of my best friends worked in another department. We’ve both often said that the reason it worked, and that we were both comfortable with it, was that our positions had 0 interaction. And even with that, I intentionally didn’t really advertise how close we were because I didn’t want people to think it’s why I got the job.

      But as an example of how it had potential to muddy the friendship–my friend ended up moving on a year or 2-ish after I started, in large part because her boss was terrible. All of that impacts how I view that person, who still works here. I don’t interact with them much, so it’s not like it has a huge impact on my day-to-day, but I have emotions and feelings tied up in that interaction because of my friendship. I wouldn’t have wanted to balance my outrage on behalf of my friend with my day to day work, which would have been an issue if we worked closer.

      All of that was a longwinded way of saying that there’s good reason to not want to work with a close friend, even one who you think would be great in the role. If you want to avoid addressing the rest with your friend, you could fall back on that (depending on the friendship dynamics and all that)

    19. Chilipepper Attitude*

      As others said, you don’t have to recommend her. You can let your manager know a friend is applying and you would be happy to talk about what you know but that you have not worked together except early on in a volunteer role.

    20. Frankie Bergstein*

      What about your own reputation? If you are referring people in – even just passing along a resume – don’t you want your word to mean something? You could pass it along to your manager. In writing, you could say something like, “here’s a resume from someone interested in this role. I haven’t worked with them.” In person or on the phone, you could say, “I do know this person socially, and here are traits/experiences they have that you should know when considering their candidacy.”

      I was burned by this once. I recommended (or maybe just passed along) a classmate’s resume for a master’s level internship. She got it. She did horribly, including providing incorrect information that her boss then shared at a high-level meeting. The boss was embarrassed. My classmate didn’t seem to understand she’d done anything wrong. I knew she wasn’t the greatest, but I didn’t realize she’d 1) get something very basic and important VERY wrong and 2) not see the problem with that. Whew, it makes me stressed just to remember this! Anyway, you’ve gotten lots of advice on here from smart folks, so good luck and god speed! I’d be curious to hear an update.

    21. JSPA*

      “A person I knew well in school asked me to pass this along. To be clear, I have never worked with her, can’t vouch for her in a work situation, either in terms of skills or attitude. But we go back far enough that I feel obliged to hand it to you, in case she’s indeed a fit for the llama grooming position.”

      I’d hear that as, “give it a shot if you’re desperate for someone who checks the right boxes and might work out at least short term, but don’t blame me–and I won’t blame you–if it doesn’t work out because she turns out to be unprofessional, difficult, or easily distracted.”

      1. Despachito*

        I find this honest enough to placate your friend on the one hand and not to compromise yourself on the other.

        I once recommended my friend in a situation they desperately needed to fill a position. My friend is a very sweet and kind person, but she was definitely not a good fit, and I felt bad towards the person I recommended her to (also a very sweet person who was swamped with work and hoping the new hire will help her out).

        Our friendship survived without a bruise though, and that leads me to another question – OP says that she is afraid of the friend’s reaction if she does not bat for her strongly enough, and based on that, I think the friendship is perhaps worth reconsidering. It is not a good sign to have to be afraid that my friend would become nasty because I wasn’t able to get her what she wanted.

  3. Resume Formats*

    What is everyone doing for resume formatting these days? I’m not a hiring manager, so I don’t get to scope out the competition.

    Template searches show a lot of complicated graphics and space for headshots, which I know is not a US norm. So what are real applicants actually using?

    1. Find and Replace*

      I guess the first question is what line of work you’re applying for jobs in. The norms differ a lot based on that!

      In general, I believe simple and readable is always best (unless you’re in a field like graphic design, in which case it might make more sense to have a flashier version).

      2. Fran Fine*

        Even the resumes for the graphic designers my company hires don’t have overly fancy resumes. They demonstrate their creativity through their portfolio pieces, which they link to on the resume.

      3. Koalafied*

        So much this. I’m hiring for a role right now and I got a resume last week that was just… so crammed full of small text covering the entire page, with literally no margins at all about about 25-30 bullet points for each job in one column and another bullet pointed list about 50 random “skills” in another column. I actually eventually had to force myself, painfully, to go through it line by line with a lot of concentration because the first 4 or 5 times I pulled it up on my screen some unconscious part of my brain was so overwhelmed by how much information had been dumped on the page that before I knew what I was doing I had minimized the window to get it off my screen.

        I’m really not particular about resume formatting choices as long as you’re using a normal font size (nothing less than a minimum of 12pt with most fonts, 11pt with some of the more open ones that print larger for any given size) and have reasonably sized margins. Other than that, the most important thing is to be concise, focus on your achievements rather than listing your job duties, and don’t waste space on subjective self-assessment.

        By subjective self-assessment I mean, if you put that you’re good with Powerpoint or a great editor, that’s something that I could in theory verify by asking to see a work sample or giving you a work exercise. If you put that you’re great at multitasking or managing up or learning new things quickly, it’s not that those aren’t key skills to have – it’s that anybody can say they have them and it’s not something I can easily ask for evidence of or test for. For the resume I want to see how being great at multitasking or managing up or learning new things has translated into results on the job. You can certainly mention those kinds of soft skills in the interview or weave it into the narrative of your cover letter if/where it feels natural, but on the resume itself it’s just taking up valuable real estate without adding anything that feels to me like an objective qualification/differentiator for you as a candidate, and there’s surely something else that would be a better use of the space. (If your resume is already pretty full, then even white space would be a better use of the space, tbh.)

      4. Momma Bear*

        Our Marketing person had a simple resume. The Graphic Designer had a more colorful one with a link to their portfolio.

        I’m looking at two right now that I think used almost the same template – Name large and in bold, contact info, and then a line for Education (these are college students looking for an Internship) + skills/relevant experience in a bulleted format. One page, no less than a 10 pt font. Clear and readable.

    2. ThinkQuicker*

      I used a really simple format on my recent (successful) job search. Name and contact details at the top, then chronological work history, and education at the bottom. I had a side panel on the right containing some of my skills highlights (industry specific software proficiency and awards etc.)

      1. AW*

        This is what I’m doing now. I’ve been comfortably searching for a bit, and I’ve found that the simpler format like this gets more positive response than my longer, more detailed resume. I then put a link to my LinkedIn page where I have a lot of detailed information.

        The sidebar with knowledge & skills is useful and really easy to tweak to be specific to the position.

      1. Joielle*

        And as someone who hires primarily government attorneys, a design-y resume like that would be seen as unbearably precious – not necessarily disqualifying but definitely a point against an applicant. It’s 100% black text on white background around here, sedate fonts only, a bit of bolding or underlining for headers or job titles is fine. Definitely depends on your field!

        1. L.H. Puttgrass*

          Oh my, yes. And “sedate fonts” can be interpreted very narrowly. I know of one attorney who really dislikes Palatino, for example (another isn’t a fan of Times Roman, of all things—but then, no one ever got fired for using Times Roman, so they cope).

          That sample might be a tolerable attorney bio page on a firm web site, if that firm is trying to project a hip & happening vibe. As a resume, eyebrows would be raised.

      2. Alfalfa Alfredo*

        I’ve received this resume. I hate hate hate it with the burning passion of being forced to eat bananas.

      3. JSPA*

        That’s a lot of “unreadable to older eyes” white-on-color blocks of texts, and the overall look-and-feel remind me of clickbait pages, or networking sites from 15 years ago. I’m a tad surprised that it gets approval from designers.

        I mean, if the person had designed it themselves, starting with a blank page, it would indicate a certain level of technical proficiency…but when it’s a template, I honestly don’t see the appeal.

    4. Can't think of a funny name*

      I just did one and went with a one column, simple, clean, no pictures…but I’m an accountant so not exactly a creative industry.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        My last resume was aimed at a government position. It’s more like a CV. So, not flashy, either. But very, very informative.

      2. Quinalla*

        I haven’t had to use a resume in about 4 years, but last time I did it one column (though I think two column can be fine) and used bullet points with things like “Designed HVAC and plumbing 100 projects in Y & Z markets” “Led initiate that led to X% savings in designer time spent on projects” etc. Recruiter told me multiple times my resume was great. For technical fields for sure keep it clean & readable & straightforward and 1-2 pages, 2 pages if you have a lot of experience, otherwise stick to 1.

        If I was going to polish off my resume today, I wouldn’t change the design of it, just update some dates and details to include more recent items.

      3. KR*

        This is what I do. Everything else just seems like a risk that the hiring manager won’t like it. So I go basic to make sure my experience is highlighted and I’m appealing to a wide audience. I found a role recently but I was applying for finance and business roles.

    5. Annika Hansen*

      I used a Google Doc template that appeared toward the top a few months. It was very simple. I got the job so it apparently worked.

    6. Working on Pacific Time*

      I’m on a hiring committee for the first time, and we’ve gotten a lot of resumes from recent or soon-to-be grads. Most of them had very formatted, colorful resumes, often with headshots. I can only assume they’re getting bad advice or picking Word templates they like. More experienced applicants had very simple resumes.

      1. Fran Fine*

        I can only assume they’re getting bad advice or picking Word templates they like.

        Or probably Canva templates. Those are very design heavy, even their supposedly “basic” versions.

      2. DataSci*

        I hate headshots, and strongly suspect I’d never get a job again if they were expected. And I’m white! But I’m a not conventionally attractive woman, butch, and over 40, which is the kiss of death (And yeah, they’ll find that out when they see me for the in-person round, but at that point I have a foot in the door, I don’t get thrown out on day one for not having a pretty smile.)

        I’m sure there’s a reason beyond “I want to work with pretty people” or “I think I’m attractive and advertising that will give me a leg up” for their use, but those are the only ones I can come up with. Help me out? What is a legitimate reason why knowing what I look like would affect your decision to interview me?

        1. TheRain'sSmallHands*

          I don’t think HR likes them either for that very reason. I’ve worked with corporate HR departments that have a hard enough time getting primarily white male management to look at anyone with a name that is female or says “this person might not be white.” Headshots – ugh. Unless you are going to an audition…..

        2. IT Manager*

          Occasionally on this site it comes up that headshots are very common in most European countries (I think) and I recall several people saying that makes it easier to facilitate a real relationship upon meeting or to imagine knowing the person as you read the resume.

          (Which made me think – isn’t this exactly how unexamined bias or racism gets perpetuated???)

      3. MacGillicuddy*

        The other problem with anything but plain straightforward formatting is when you apply online at a company’s website. Click the button that says “upload resume” . Then their software scans the resume and auto-fills a long form, then asks you to correct the form. Even with a plain resume you have to do a lot of tweaking to get the right info into the right fields. Upload a fancy resume and you’ll spend an hour retyping everything in the fields.

    7. EMP*

      I see a lot that are very basic. Think, 12pt font, header with name/address, basic list of experience. This is totally find IMO especially since my field is technical and I have no expectation that these candidates are creating user facing documents. We even get some through job websites that strip all the formatting out completely.

      One thing I’ve seen that I would NOT do – confusing pie charts showing your technical expertise (what does 45% python mean?) or using icons to represent technologies you’ve worked with. These were both from intern candidates so I assume they were also unfamiliar with norms, but I don’t know if it was recommended by some third party.

      (caveat, I’m not a hiring manager but on a team interviewing frequently so I see the resumes that make it past phone screens)

      1. Reba*

        Yes, I think there are a lot of templates available (Canva, etc.) that just invite people to add confusing fluff like that pie chart. The example linked by KMJ above is not so bad (although aside from the formatting questions, putting emotional intelligence as one of your skills is … sideeye, for me). I like a little color and design, but that doesn’t mean that like, widgets belong on your resume!

        I have also seen quite a few resumes recently where the candidate is clearly hewing to the one-page rule, but doing so by making teeny tiny margins and no spacing, just horizontal lines between sections, two columns of bullet points, and so on. Help the reader out, people!

    8. WantonSeedStitch*

      I would avoid a headshot, especially as some workplaces are taking the time to blank those out, in addition to other stuff on a resume that could potentially be a cause of unconscious bias (candidate name until it’s decided to bring them in for an interview, college names and dates of graduation, etc.). My last resume was super, super simple. I’m not in a creative field. UNLESS you’re looking for a design-related position, I think it’s generally true that you want your resume to be less memorable for how it looks, than for what it contains.

    9. cubone*

      I personally prefer the 2 column and got good feedback from friends on it, but saw a (very experienced, otherwise quite good advice-giving ) career coach recently who was a very strong believer in the single column and as simple as possible (like the header with contact info, then just Experience and Education headings with basic bullets under). I changed to that basic format and I did immediately get 2 interviews (but whose to say if it’s solely based on the resume).

      I also have 2 friends in HR/recruitment at different companies and one is firm on “must be a PDF”, while the other one complains when people don’t submit it in Word format. So…………… I am just baffled these days, lol.

      1. Kes*

        That’s so interesting – I always draft my resume in word and then save to PDF to provide because that way the format can’t get messed up and others can’t change it. But I’m surprised the HR/recruiter side would care as much which format as long as it’s something they can easily open and read

        1. Blue Lagoon*

          My experience has been that a recruiter who wants a resume in an editable format wants to mess with it. Either they do something simple like delete your contact info so the company can’t escape paying them a finder’s fee, or they get super unethical and change your skills.

          1. Can't think of a funny name*

            I sent my resume to a recruiter in word format recently (I was hesitant but did it anyway, lol) and all he did was a change to the header to put the recruiting company name on there (yes for fee purposes) and then he sent it back to me. I guess I am assuming he sent the same one to the employer but I’ve had 2 interviews and nothing led me to believe they had anything different.

        2. cubone*

          yeah I’m still blown away by that one, tbh. I would ALWAYS do it in PDF – heck I would do any emailed document in a PDF if it’s not being sent for easy editing. You never know what old janky word processor or Windows version people are running.

          Her explanation was something about applicant tracking software/their specific ATS or database, but yeah, I still am a little surprised by it. It may just be highly specific to their company or her individual preference (maybe she makes comments? I was hesitant to ask too many questions and seem .. judgmental lol).

          1. Momma Bear*

            I use PDF unless requested to do otherwise. It’s easier to email and the formatting isn’t likely to go sideways if they are not using a compatible version of Word (which, esp. in the government, they may not be).

    10. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      My take on it is: DON’T USE TEMPLATES.

      If you’re in a graphic field, you need to make your own design. If you’re not, then stick to formatting with bold and all caps only.

      Templates are often full of tables and fields and all kinds of elements that look pretty but compete with the online Applicant Tracking Systems which could mean that all your good information gets mis-read or unread by the robots. You’ll see this in action if you upload your resume into a job application and you spend a lot of time correcting where the info went.

      Templates are also not designed by people in the HR/recruiting/workforce field. They have unnecessary and often un-recommended elements.

      My favorite format is to have: Contact info; Headline/Job Title for which you are applying; 4-5 highlights that show why you match up to the things they asked for in the posting; Work Experience; Education; Extra stuff if relevant to the posting.
      I use ALL CAPS for your name, headline, section headings and employers. Bold for Job titles. Plain bullet dots. No underlining, especially on email addresses because the lines visually cut some letters. No lines across the page because sometimes ATS’s read that as “the end” rather than “the end of this section.”

    11. ArtK*

      Very simple format. I’m in software development:

      1) Contact info at the top
      2) *NO* fluffy self description or objective (“A senior llama wrangler with decades of experience…”)
      3) Work experience in reverse chronological order
      4) Bulleted accomplishments under each job, including references to technologies used
      5) Education/training/certifications
      6) Technical skills
      7) Patents/publications

      I maintain a master resume with everything and remove stuff to help focus attention on things specific to a job posting. I always edit it down to 2 pages.

    12. Jora Malli*

      I was on a hiring panel a few weeks ago and while we had a few resumes with charts/graphics/headshots, and even one making liberal use of memoji art (what the actual hell, please don’t do that), most of the resumes I’ve seen lately are just the standard text.

    13. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

      I just had my first experience reviewing resumes from outside the United States and I’m so glad I had read here about the different cultural expectations for including personal info. I saw things from uncommon in the US (hobbies) to forbidden (marital status) to perplexing (father’s name).

    14. Anonymous Hippo*

      There seem to be a trend of recruiting firms squishing people resumes into their own formats. I personally do not care for this 1) because the formats are usually goofy, and 2) its so obvious they just uploaded it in, and there are weird errors, but it makes me not be able to use the resume appearance as a sifting tool.

    15. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I recommend Etsy for resume templates all the time! There are many options without space for headshots, and you can always remove any graphics or something you don’t like. I’ve gotten rave reviews on my resumes when I used an Etsy template, and haven’t paid more than maybe $10-12 USD.

    16. Gnome*

      This somehow posted elsewhere the first try…

      I hire people with programming experience and almost all have a section for that. I’ve seen a lot of bland Word Doc stuff, stuff with objective statements, stuff with sidebars. Too much formatting and I’ll remember yours as “the green one” which isn’t good.

      No head shots. I am seeing got repositories, LinkedIn URLs, and the like.

      Also, I know Alison hates the objective statement, but I have seen a few people put it to good use since we don’t require cover letters. In particular where there’s clearly a pivot happening (like why after 20 years as an A are you looking and a position as a B?). But it HAS to be short.

    17. learnedthehardway*

      Complicated graphics and headshots are a nightmare for Applicant Tracking Systems, and any time a recruiter has to put together a report that is formatted. If you decide you want to have a fancy pants version of your resume, use it for interviews. Upload fairly plain ones into systems.

    18. Cedrus Libani*

      I like mine. It’s simple, it’s pretty, it gets the job done.

      The first line has my name on the left, and my phone and email on the right. There’s a thick line below that to visually set it apart from the rest of my resume.

      I have two sub-headings: Education and Work Experience. (I’m in a field where my specialized degree is required, so Education goes first.) These sub-headings are in capital letters, with a thin line beneath.

      Each entry has a header in bold text, plus the relevant year(s), unbolded and in parentheses. If needed, there are bulleted entries beneath. It looks like this:

      EDUCATION
      ——————————–
      PhD, Edible Housewares – University of Tea, Oolong (2011-2016)
      * Dissertation: Anomalous Melting of Ill-Tempered Chocolate
      * Awarded Hershey’s Young Chocolatier Fellowship (2011)
      BS, Chocolate Studies – Coffee State University (2004-2008)

      WORK EXPERIENCE
      ——————————–
      Llama Groomers Inc – Oolong, Tea State (2017-present)
      * Formulated chocolate-based shampoo that preserves “clean llama smell” for up to 5 days
      * Prepared fractionated extracts from raw chocolate using Keywords A, B, and C

      (You get the idea.)

      For the record, it’s in LaTeX for bonus pretty points. I keep a plain-text version around too, for the inevitable pasting into various boxes on application forms. Not Word, because I don’t want people messing with it and/or messing it up and then making ME look like a goof. Also, while I’m above-average at Word (wrote a whole dissertation in it, very much not of my own free will), I still find it absolutely miserable to do something as fiddly as a resume. You get it right, and then you change one little thing somewhere else and then Word “helpfully” breaks it all. Rude.

      1. OverThinker*

        I love your sample resume. Truly made me laugh.

        And can I please get the chocolate-based shampoo that preserves “clean llama smell” for up to 5 days?

    19. Karen*

      I’m only applying for local, government jobs and I’ve sent my resume out 5 times over 18 months. No interviews. I took Alison’s advice and completely redid my resume for a job that has everything I want and fits me well. The new resume is very basic – contact info, jobs, education with just 3 point-form highlights for each job, in Arial 11.
      With the revamped resume, I have an interview next week so I’ll be studying Alison’s guide this weekend. My last interview was 20 years ago so I’m a bit nauseated.

    20. Lyudie*

      If I can tag along on this a bit…several years ago I replaced my objective with a sort of summary of my background and skills at the suggestion of a career coach (“employers don’t care what you want, they care what you can bring to the table” and that is totally fair). I don’t currently have any sort of heading there, it’s just under my contact info. Is all that ok/common/frowned upon?

  4. Kath*

    Hi everyone,

    Some of you may remember me, last year I posted here twice regarding an unprofessional admin I work with. I wanted to give you an update (although not a happy one) and hopefully get some support/advice.

    To summarize, I’ve been harrassed by this person since I was 2 months into my job. She has done many things such as:
    Referring to me as the name of a not-very-attractive movie character (I overheard)
Skipping me and getting others sign birthday cards
Wishing me happy birthday on the wrong day and getting others to do this as they were unaware it was the wrong day (She had it right on the list she was given)
    Asking everyone else if they needed beverages/office supplies but me
    Mocking me sneakily – repeating what I said in a mocking fashion when speaking with others

    She is a vile person and friends with our manager (we report to the same person). It is a small company with no HR. Last year in September she stopped talking to me because I vented to a coworker about feeling excluded and he told this to her. She went up to our manager and cried her eyes out saying ‘she can’t trust me anymore as I gossipped about her’. My manager said ‘I can’t get her to like you so happy for her not to talk to you unless she must for work.’

    Many of you told me to find a new job. I promise I tried to no avail. We also purchased our first house early this year so I’m unable to just quit before lining something else up. My mental health has tanked. I don’t have motivation or confidence to apply for a new job. I haven’t been able to for a while and I’ll hold my hand up to that. I cannot take this anymore. How do you not care someone so nasty, who completely ices you out (doesn’t even acknowledge your presence) and is very friendly with everyone else? I keep questioning myself if I did anything wrong but I feel like I did what I can to salvage this very difficult situation.

    1. Observer*

      Therapy and a good business coach.

      Therapy for the mental health issues. The Coach to help you start working on finding a new job. Normally, I wouldn’t bother, but right now you’re seeing things through a very clouded lens and an outsider could help you see things differently and also just help start taking proactive steps to change your situation.

      1. Fingers Crossed*

        A lot of people don’t know, but unsocial therapy is often covered by medical insurance so it’s more attainable. It costs me a $15 copay each week. I hope you have similar access!

        1. Fingers Crossed*

          I meant to write “individual therapy” not couple or family therapy is covered.

    2. TimeTravlR*

      I usually kill them with kindness. I know it’s hard to do but I have someone at work who will get up and leave the room if I walk in. I barely know her but she seems to have major issues with me. So when I do see her and she can’t “escape,” I make it a point to look directly at her, put on a big smile, and say, “Good morning, Yolanda!” She sometimes turns away and sometimes grumbles a response and I walk away with a big smile on my face while inwardly I am laughing at the ridiculousness of it. I have made it sort of a game in my own head. I don’t know that this is as helpful as you need though since it sounds like this person is actively sabotaging and criticizing you, which my nemesis does not, to my knowledge.

      1. Kathenus*

        Yes, this. Malicious compliance Total politeness and professionalism, it’ll drive her nuts. And you have the moral high ground – win/win. She is a bitter, unhappy person. Be glad that you aren’t and don’t let her affect your happiness and self worth. I know it’s easier said than done, but be unfailingly nice and professional and every time she’s not just be so glad you’re not that horrible of a person too and think how bad it must be to live like that.

      2. KuklaRed*

        Why are you giving her so much power over you? She is still playing “mean girl” high school games and there is no reason you have to participate. Ignore her and her petty little BS crap. She’s ridiculous and should be treated as such.

        1. A Feast of Fools*

          What??

          Yoland *is* being treated as if she / her behavior is ridiculous. Making a game of exuberantly greeting someone who is acting Mean Girl-ish isn’t “giving her so much power over you”. Quite the opposite, actually.

        2. Chilipepper Attitude*

          I agree that the OP is giving this awful person too much power over her. Stop questioning if you did something wrong or how to salvage something. What would you salvage? A friendship – why would you want to be friends with such an awful person?!?

          You asked how to stop caring – as others said, therapy. But also, you are spending a lot of time thinking about her. Think about other things, things you like. Engage with your own life and less with work.

          Whether you kill her with kindness or ignore her, make your life about you, not her/work.

    3. Jean*

      You cannot change this person’s behavior. You can only change your reaction to it. Gray rock and do your best to pretend that she doesn’t exist. Letting her ruin your life like this is giving her way more power than she is entitled to.

      1. Cj*

        You are spot-on when you say the OP is giving her co-worker way more power over her than she is entitled to.

        Kath- it sounds like you want this person to like you, but why? She sounds like an awful person, and I would want to have as little to do with her as possible, even if that means she is icing me out.

        If she’s actively sabotaging you, or getting your other co-workers on “her side”, you should let your boss know about it, even if you don’t think it will do any good. But if she just won’t speak to you, I’d take that as a win.

    4. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I worked with someone like that and it does mess with your head. But don’t wrap your self worth up in how this horrible person treats you. They are the ones who suck here, not you.

      As how to cope, well this might sound weird but I pretended in my head we were in some wacky workplace comedy where I was the obvious protagonist and they were clearly the villain character. I even gave it a fake name and would text my friends “New episode material!” anytime they did something to me. It didn’t change their behavior but it helped me detach from it. Not saying that will work for you, but it helped me. And I did eventually move on and she’s still there and still horrible based on what my old coworker tell me.

    5. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I think you have a manager problem, not so much a coworker problem. Are you a member of a protected class and is it possible that the admin’s treatment of you is rooted in discrimination? If so, please document all the incidents (a contemporaneous log is best) and schedule a meeting with your manager to resolve. If not resolved to your satisfaction , you can file a federal discrimination complaint. Again, this is only if you are a member of a protected class, so if you’re not or the harassment is not rooted in illegal discrimination, please disregard.
      None of that will improve your working conditions in the short term, but as words of encouragement, let me say that my daughter’s sixth grade classmates are more mature than this individual with her birthday and coffee order pettiness! She is ultra silly. Take all the sick leave/vacation leave you can, and spend that time job searching!

      1. Lana Kane*

        The problem can be both, it’s not just one or the other. Big picture yes, it’s a manager problem. Day to day – Coworker is very much the problem.

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      Your manager is really failing here. They can’t make the admin like you, but they can make them act professionally, and their treatment of you is most certainly unprofessional.

      I’d recommend what others have said – definitely therapy and definitely keep working on getting out of there. In the meantime I like Alison’s advice for surviving a toxic environment – pretend you’re an anthropologist studying a new culture. Every strange/cruel thing they do is just another data point for you to make note of, rather than an attack to be withstood.

      Best of luck, I hope you get out of there soon!

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        This. What the hell, manager? It’s not about liking each other, it’s about reasonable standards of professional conduct, which this admin is not meeting. I would take the advice of the other folks talking about ways of coping with this emotionally, and do your best to get to a place where you CAN start job-hunting again.

      2. JelloStapler*

        Correct he can’t make her like her but he should expect her to act like a professional human being.

    7. jane's nemesis*

      I didn’t see your earlier posts, so forgive me if this has already been covered, but… does it have to matter that this person doesn’t like you? I know it sucks, and I’m a people-pleaser who wants everyone to like me, too. But if you can do your job without this person liking you, I think you need to work on not caring.
      I know it sucks to be excluded and have someone get your birthday wrong, and get mocked. But all of those things reflect poorly on HER, not you. Try to hold your head up and work on not outwardly caring. And then at home, vent about what a jerk she is and then try to move on and not dwell on it. Focus on your job, not socializing, as much as you can.
      Also, I promise, she gets off on upsetting you, so the more you can Grey Rock her, the better.

    8. Bernice Clifton*

      Do your best to cultivate working relationships with coworkers who DO like and respect you to balance it out.

    9. CatCat*

      Therapy. It’s been helping me and I think could help you.

      One strategy I keep on a note in front of me is to depersonalize they’re behavior. Just like how you might feel if a wild animal did things that were upsetting. The bear broke into your car and stole food because it’s a bear and it does bear things. It’s upsetting but ultimately has nothing to do with you. Here, Nasty Admin is going to do Nasty Admin things because that’s in her nature. It’s not about you.

      But therapy, 100%.

    10. Jora Malli*

      I remember your posts from before, and I’m sad to see that this situation has become worse instead of better. You deserve so much more than this. You have done all the right things. Your coworker and your manager are the ones who aren’t holding up their end.

      I agree with the therapy recommendations, and I’m going to go a step further and ask you if there’s a hobby you feel good about that you can join a group for. A knitting circle or a hiking group or a dance studio, somewhere that you can spend time with people who like the things you like. As you get to know those people, you’re going to form some positive relationships and even friendships with some of them. Let those relationships bolster you up when your work relationships are hard. See that there are people who like you for who you are, and that their opinions of you matter more than this coworker who formed her opinions for mean-spirited reasons. With time, you can build back your self confidence and feel comfortable applying to new jobs that will take you away from this terrible situation.

    11. All Het Up About It*

      I’m so sorry you are struggling with this. I agree with the above comments and that it’s time to consider therapy (though I know that is easier said than done sometimes.) Nothing is going to change at your office. You will have to leave and get a new job, but if you don’t feel mentally good/confident, then it’s not a surprise you aren’t applying. The longer you work there the longer you will feel bad, and the less likely you are to have the mental fortitude to job hunt. It’s one of those negativity spirals, and you’ve got to find the stick to poke in to the wheel and stop it.

      As for this: How do you not care someone so nasty, who completely ices you out (doesn’t even acknowledge your presence) and is very friendly with everyone else? Because they are a NASTY person. They are awful and horrible and YOU DO NOT WANT THEM TO LIKE YOU. Would you want Voldemort or Delores Umbridge to like you? No. Start thinking of this woman that way. You are still hung up on the fact that she is “Nice” to other people so the problem is you. It. Is. Not. You. This is a her problem. She’s not a nice person just because she can be friendly to other people. Cast her as Umbridge and yourself as McGonagall. (Or whatever your fandom may be.) This isn’t something I’d normally advocate, but it sounds like part of you still wants her to be nice to you. And while I get that in the sense of having an unpleasant co-worker creates an awful environment, I get the sense that you still want her to be nice to you because you equate that with her approval.

      See if you can work yourself around to feeling successful when you are both able to ignore each other. I know others have recommended the “killing with kindness” approach, but that’s likely to make you more miserable because part of you is still going to feel like you are failing because you are so nice to her, but she is still awful to you.

      TLDR
      1.) Work on your mental health/self-esteem.
      2.) Recast her approval as a negative.
      3.) Ignore/Avoid/Work around as much as possible and consider that a win.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

      I would suggest that when others are present when you encounter an unprofessional action, respond in the moment to that specific action.
      “Abby tells me that you already circulated & delivered a card for Betsy. Please give me a blank so that I can send one as well.”
      “Caitlin just asked me what I ordered for the company lunch. Please check your distribution list, because somehow you dropped me. I hope you’re able to call in a order to the caterer at this time because I’m sure you don’t want our company to leave one employee out.”
      ‘ Debbie wished me happy birthday and says you told her it was today. This isn’t the first time you’ve done something like that and it was not funny the first time. Why would you do that?”

      1. Momma Bear*

        This. Take back the narrative in a succinct and direct way. If you aren’t getting office supplies, then remind her and cc your boss if you need to. You do not need to be liked by her or be her friend. You just need her to do her job so you can do yours. She’s mocking you? She’s a child. Try to ignore it. Address work-related issues only.

        I also agree with individual therapy. The therapist can coach you through conversations with her, maybe give you some affirmations you can say to remind yourself of your own value and strength, and teach you healthy boundaries and assertive communication.

    13. Ellen Ripley*

      Your coworker sounds like a huge jerk with serious issues, and your manager is not much better. Keep it in your mind that it’s them, not you, that is the cause of this situation.

      I know it’s hard but getting out of there would feel so good. Even spending 1 hour working on your resume or applying to one position per month would be a step towards a new job where you wouldn’t have to deal with this rubbish.

      I hope you have hobbies or something outside of work that you enjoy doing! Hobbies have been a powerful lifeline for me when my confidence was crushed by my job, to help remind me that I am good at some things, that I am a worthy human being.

      I’m sorry you’re in such a bad situation. I really hope you come out the other side soon in better circumstances!

    14. Trek*

      Try laughing at her at least to yourself if not actively to her face. She is allowing a new hire two months into her job to dictate her entire daily schedule. She spends so much time thinking of you and trying to exclude you. The one time you vented she went crying to a manager. I can’t imagine worrying or caring about someone else so much that I barely know.
      You can also call her out in the moment. ‘Hey Jane I need sticky notes Thanks.’ She may not bring them to you but she’s offering to bring other people stuff. “Hey Jane I want x for lunch’
      Clarify your birthday with others if you want to. I never really got birthday celebrations at work.
      If the nick name comes up state “I thought that’s what she called our boss. I didn’t know she called me that. Uh interesting. I wonder why.’ Act dumb about it even if someone else may think it’s obvious.
      Focus on being nice and professional with her and if she is snarky act like you don’t notice or laugh and treat it like it’s a joke. If she snaps at you stare at her and walk away.

      1. Itsnotaboutme*

        ^^^ this!

        Thanks Trek!

        VP I work under, for the last three years – treats me like OP’s tormenter. But, I know that this is because she’s an insecure jerk and I just note every nasty jab, should I require documentation for HR.

        What struck me about your comment is that the tormenter is so obsessed with tormenting, that an inordinate amount of their working hours are taken up with obsessing about the object of their disdain. And that… speaks volumes about the tormenter – NOT the victim!

    15. Squirrel Nutkin*

      I am SO sorry you’re dealing with a bully like this.

      You can’t change her, clearly, but you can try reducing the amount of space she rents in your head until you’re able to get out of this toxic workplace. Make sure that you have good relations with the rest of your co-workers (as long as they are reasonable people) that are independent of her; document, document, document that you are doing your job well; and then try to ignore her stupid shenanigans to the best of your ability.

      She ignores you? Fine, ignore her back. She says something salty to you? As you think best, either ignore her or reply, “What a mean/rotten/inappropriate thing to say! What were you thinking?!” in a nasty tone and stare her right in the eyes. Bonus points for you if you stand up to her in front of witnesses. Every time you ignore her or stand up to her, give yourself a big mental pat on the back.

      Bottom line: her nasty behavior is NOT your fault, though poor management at your workplace seems to have made it your problem when it shouldn’t be. Your job here is just to not take her bullying as some kind of reflection on you and to take really good care of yourself until you have enough emotional energy to get a new job and get out of there. And then Glassdoor the company for not protecting its workers from a bully like that. Sheesh.

    16. JSPA*

      Unless there’s more of substance in previous posts…

      None of these slights strike me as going much above petty annoyance.

      You got wished happy birthday–on the wrong day. Gasp! The Horror! Really….So what? Work isn’t someplace you should need to be getting your birthday recognized with well-wishes, to be liked, to be effective, or to be happy.

      Missing a chance to sign a circulated birthday card? Take a picture of the birthday list, and send a birthday email, if you’re worried people will think you forgot.

      She doesn’t like you, and is petty?

      Take her name out of your mouth, give her no fodder, and there’s only so much she can do, by adding you to her list of people to imitate.

      If you are at your breaking point and unable to even consider applying elsewhere (?!?) because an admin is petty towards you, consider getting some sort of counseling. In the US, where workplace teasing and workplace bullying are not illegal, there’s no such thing as a workplace that guarantees that nobody will be petty towards you at this sort of irritation-and-nuisance-bu-no-actual-damage-to-work-functions-or-reputation level.

      You get on her nerves. She gets on yours. Accept that, and either ignore it, or move on.

      HR would not be getting involved in this (unless her characterization explicitly had to do with race, gender, religion, etc) even if you had HR.

      1. OverThinker*

        If she gets everybody else’s birthday right, from a list, but gets Kath’s wrong, that’s intentional. If she openly snubs Kath, that’s intentional. Having someone like this in one’s day to day life wears on a person.

        The sdmin’s behavior is *incredibly* unprofessional. It is not reasonable to expect Kath to not be bothered by it.

    17. Blueberry Donut*

      “How do you not care someone so nasty, who completely ices you out (doesn’t even acknowledge your presence) and is very friendly with everyone else? ”

      With every intentional slight, this woman is saying, “I’m a petty, spiteful person and will go out of my way to ruin someone’s day.” It says a lot more about her than it does about you.

      Resist the urge to internalize this like you somehow caused her absurd behavior and don’t devote anymore headspace to looking for a reason for it. Those of us who don’t lash out at innocent bystanders may never be able to understand what motivates a person to behave that way, so you could turn this situation around and around in your mind forever and still never find an answer that makes sense.

      Additionally, remind yourself that this colleague isn’t all that important to you in the big scheme of things. She’s a petty, spiteful pain in the foot, but she’s also a very insignificant part of your life and doesn’t deserve a second thought 99% of the time. She’s a pebble stuck in your shoe…annoying and somewhat cringe-worthy, but not worth a whole lot of consideration.

      That’s how I ‘not care’ about irrational people/situations that I have no control over. I choose to mentally let them go (quit dwelling on them) and focus on things more worthy of my time/energy. There’s something very freeing about admitting to myself, “This (stressful thing) simply isn’t that important to me anymore.”

    18. AddictedtoCleanTok*

      I have had a couple of students who felt trapped in extremely toxic situations and I’m talking clearly racist, emotionally damaging environments. For both, the dysfunction was so deep, there was no language that would made it more bearable. Being new to the workforce, they don’t necessarily have the confidence or language to advocate themselves. Imagine that you’re a little nervous already and when you face a barrage of demeaning or insulting behavior, it’s incredibly difficult to find the resolve you need to protect yourself… it’s ridiculous that they even have to do that but it’s a reality for many.

      Here’s what I advised them to do because I did think it was achievable:

      Reframe how you see them. The mean girl mindset comes from a place of insecurity. Look at them with pity because their lives are miserable and they need others to be just as miserable.

      Here is your mantra…I’ll be gone soon and you’ll be stuck here. I told them their current job would soon be a distant memory… I mean really that job may soon fall off their resume. I also need them to get out before the horrible situation infects and warps their mindset.

      Stop letting them rent space in your head. Their sad attempts to hurt you are so trivial and petty that it’s beneath you and doesn’t even make your radar. The few little acts that they carry out every day are the minuscule things they have power over.

      You have a robust life, full of people who love and care about you. You have hobbies. You travel. Whatever it is that brings you joy, focus on that. Dim the light on the mean girl and choose to be a ray of sunshine. Don’t get mired in tit for tat. The high road is always a more fulfilling path.

      Best of luck. Better days are ahead.

    19. SofiaDeo*

      So what is the chance that she’s insanely jealous of something about you, and is trying to be mean because of it? You sound more professional at work than her. This could make her jealous, and wan t to push your buttons, any button she can find. Are you taller and she’s short? Shorter and she’s tall? You are (married/single) and she’s not? You (do/do not) paint your nails/wear high heels/wear low heels? Jealous people get jealous over most anything. And if she’s must garden-variety “mean girl” who likes to
      push buttons/find someone to pick on, apparently she has chosen you.

      Your manager is wrong about any “liking.” This is work, and the only things that really matter are professionalism/civility. If you are a member of a protected class, the “she purposefully excludes you” could be a basis for a harassment claim. I say could, because in a small office it may just be very clique-ish. My boss in one small business would ask/buy coffee for all 8 other employees except me. I was a good worker but he didn’t “like” me. So what. Not ordering your supplies is something you can go to the boss, in a very calm, pleasant tone of voice, more of a “Susan excludes me from supply orders, I am out of pens, paper, and sticky notes. I can’t work without them. Please get me some so I can continue to work. What shall I do until I can get the supplies I need to continue?” I think a few of these will influence the issue, but you Must be pleasant. No complaining/frustration.

      Don’t let this mean girl get in your head.

  5. Anonymous reader*

    Does anyone else have a stomachache from stress when they go into work? What do you do about it? I’ve tried drinking hot tea or cold water but they don’t help much. And I can’t quit my job right now. Any suggestions?

    1. Evelyn O'Connell*

      What stress management are you doing outside of work? The usual suspects like exercise, meditation, good sleep, etc., all should carry over to times you aren’t actively doing them. It takes time, of course, and isn’t always consistent in my experience, but it helps. I hope things get better for you. It’s so hard to feel that heaviness every day.

      1. Anonymous reader*

        I’m going for walks and getting enough sleep. I’ve started looking into meditation apps because I need the help in meditating.

    2. Kath*

      Hi there, I too have been suffering from stress for a while now (for the reasons explained in my message above). It doesn’t fully go away but I manage it with the help of a few things outside of work. I go out for daily walks. I do yoga and I meditate for 10 mins every morning. I also journal, nothing fancy, just putting down what I’m thinking or what happened every day. It helps me organize my thoughts. Lastly, I tend to withdraw from people when anxious but the more I stay away the worse my anxiety gets so I make sure I have regular contact with friends & family. Hope everything gets better for you.

        2. Sylvan*

          I’m not the person who commented, but yes. I use Meditation Minis and Shine guided meditations on Spotify when I want to relax, and they usually last about 10 minutes. They’re really nice to listen to on your way into work in the morning, during free time on a break, etc.

        3. Oxford Comma*

          Chiming in on this. I’ve started doing meditation for sleep issues but have been doing it for stress as well and it helps a lot. I’m using an app called Calm, which does cost, but I did the trial. On a friend’s advice, I canceled, waited a few days and got an offer for 50% off. Have also heard good things about Headspace.

    3. Sick Leave Drama*

      Can you find the root of what is making you stressed at work? I tend to struggle to pick apart what is my own general anxiety from real-world actionable items like “my boss is a malicious jerk.” Sometimes I get hung up on silly things like answering the phones or what to wear and it’s helpful to laser focus your solutions to the problems.

      1. Anonymous reader*

        My biggest problem with work right now is that there’s just so much of it! It never lets up.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

          Alison has run some wonderful suggestions for how to professionally tell your manager that the new task is going to interfere with the existing tasks. I’ve used the suggestions, and they really do put the responsibility for prioritization back onto the person being paid to make that decision.
          “I just got your email to start project X. If i do that, I won’t have time to complete the 3 projects you have me working on for Friday. Project A is 90% complete, but I can do only 2 of the other three. Which are the highest priority B, C, or X?

    4. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Use ginger? Peppermint pills for IBS? I get headaches really bad, and typical wellness stuff does nothing for me so don’t feel bad if it doesn’t help.

      1. Ashley*

        The peppermint pills are really awesome for the stress stomach ache. The only side effect is burping peppermint.

        1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          They are called IBSgard. They are concentrated peppermint. They are expensive tbh

    5. Mr. Cajun2core*

      If it is that bad, I would suggest talking to your doctor. Maybe your doctor can prescribe something that will help.

      If the cause of your stress is your job (which it sounds like) are you looking for another job?

    6. Austistic and Anxious: The Biography*

      Not stomach aches, but stress triggers a lot of chronic pain issues, including migraines- I’m also on pain meds that double as anti-anxiety meds now because of that, but prior to getting meds I used a lot of anxiety management strategies to manage it.

      My non-med strategies: If there are elements of the work you can control, I’d suggest focusing on those mentally and practice accepting the elements that you can’t change. Doing small elements of meditation before/during/after work as available is helpful. So if it’s a workload issue, in a work environment where your work depends on others who may or may not be on time, focusing on the work elements you do have control over and listing those separately from those you don’t, and congratulating yourself every time you cross something off your list, is a small thing that helps me feel much more in control. It’s less effective if the issue is interpersonal, but even there, I’ve found that reminding myself that I can only control my own behavior and that anybody else’s behavior only reflects on them, not me, does help.

      Big thing: Also doing physical activity or something similar to complete the stress circuit in your brain is immensely helpful for me. We’re built to be freaked out about a predator, which we then run from, and then we escape and calm down. In today’s environment, our bodies are basically acting as though we’re SURROUNDED BY LIONS OMG but none of them are actually *eating* us and we can’t run away so…. we’re just at elevated stress levels all the time. I’ve found doing even mild cardio, as you’re able, helps my body interpret the signals as “We got away from danger” instead of “OH GOD WE’RE IN DANGER ALL THE TIME”

      I won’t recommend specific activities, since everybody’s body and capacity for different activities is different, but even a short walk can help. anything that gets your heart rate up and brings it down again.

      Other things to help complete that stress response: Getting into some emotional media, doing emotional art/journaling, etc. Also, finding a sensory center -if you like the smell of mint, for example, get a little satchet, and take calming breaths while holding it. If you’ve got somebody who you can vent to- just setting a timer for ten minutes and venting, then refocusing on the cool things in your life, that can be helpful as long as you’re not overloading them.

      Most of these are things that end up needing to be built up as a habit. The one that I’ve found the most helpful is cardio exercise, followed by separating out the things I control, vs accepting what I can’t.

      2. Quinalla*

        Cardio – even just brisk walking – is the #1 thing for me too. Completing the stress cycle is so important. The best book I’ve read about it is Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Amelia Nagoski and Emily Nagoski, it explained it in a way where I was like – Oh, I finally get why exercise is good for stress.

        Meditation can help a lot too especially if you tend to ruminate. And yeah, you can start with 5-10 minutes and increase if needed or just keep it at 10 minutes. 10 minutes a day has been shown to do a lot! Get a guided meditation app if you aren’t sure where to start or just set a timer and focus on your breathing and as your focus drifts (it will) gently bring it back. That’s it.

        Getting enough sleep helps a lot too, but can be hard if you are stressed. So try to set yourself up for success here, but I’d focus on exercise first as it will also help you get more sleep.

    7. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Can you talk to someone? A therapist can help with stress management techniques and medication if needed.

      If it is truly the job then it is about finding the stress points and creating techniques to deal with them.
      – setting aside specific times to work on certain things (a big project, email, whatever you need to focus)
      – organizational system to deal with tasks (this is important for me because my job can have literally 100 new tasks pop up in a day at random times with various degrees of urgency)
      -is the stress something your manager can help address? Is it inherent in the job?

      1. Anonymous reader*

        The stress seems to be inherent in the job now. It didn’t used to be but the job duties have increased.

        1. Cascadia*

          I’d really encourage you to talk to your manager about your workload. Alison has answered lots of great posts about this. Any competent manager would be horrified that you are getting stomachaches due to the stress of the job, and they would work with you to adjust your workload.

    8. Rainer Maria von Trapp*

      Yes, that happens to me quite a bit! I recommend keeping Canada mints in your bag or car and just let one melt in your mouth on the way in while breathing deeply. The sea-bands that you can get for motion sickness also help me — it might just be the placebo effect, but if it works, it works! Also, some guided breathing meditations can help a lot.

    9. L'étrangere*

      Make sure you start every day with some job hunting action. Don’t go in to work without having sent out one resume, or reached out to one person, or at least read a relevant AAM post

    10. Bagpuss*

      Not now, but in the past.
      I think long term, the solution is to actively job search and plan to move on.
      I know I found things a bit more bearable when I knew I was taking active steps to change things

    11. Anonymous Koala*

      I was in this position, and finding a good short-term therapist was incredibly helpful. My insurance (and a lot of US insurances, I think) offers a set number of free sessions with a telehealth therapist – maybe that’s an option for you? Also finding a support group of friends/coworkers to vent with can help.

    12. River*

      On a rare occasion I’ve gotten that stomachache from stress and anger. What has helped me is to go for a walk or go outside and get some fresh air. Getting a good amount of sleep is essential. A lot of adults don’t get enough sleep and not getting enough sleep has been linked to mental health and physical health. Everyone’s sleep needs are different. For me, at least 8 hours is what I need. When I was in college, I could function on 4 hours and maybe a Red Bull. So get your sleep! It makes a huge difference! Trust me. And dieting also affects health overall. The gut bacteria in your stomach is connected to mental and physical health as well. If you’re getting stomachaches, you’re killing the good gut bacteria in your stomach which in turn will make you sick. Eating a balanced and healthy diet will help the gut bacteria and will make you feel better. There’s that saying, “you are what you eat” and it’s true. Eat foods high in probiotics. Anyway, not to go on forever but if you can focus on your sleep and dieting habits, this should hopefully help you. You also don’t mention what is causing your stomach aches? If it’s a personnel issue, consider talking to your HR or management and doing something about it. Your job isn’t worth you going into pain. Good luck!!

    13. Joielle*

      My spouse has a chronic illness that’s exacerbated by stress, and one of the symptoms is stomach pain and vomiting. It got really bad last year when he was in a stressful job – same kind of thing you describe, just so much work that never lets up (and serious consequences for the company if it doesn’t get done adequately). We’ve been through every specialist, had every test done, worked with a naturopath, massage therapist, acupuncturist, medical hypnosis, etc etc… the only thing that actually helped long-term was taking a month of FMLA leave and using that month to find a new job.

      Short term, massage and bodywork does help (more of a medical-focused practitioner, not just a spa-type thing). Sometimes peppermint helps – just altoids usually. If it’s nausea, Zofran is pretty good if you can get a prescription for it.

    14. Cruciatus*

      I know you said you can’t quit your job, but it’s the only thing that worked for me. But without that, what is giving you the stress? Too much work? Bad boss? Is there anything you can do to help with that? Can you have some things taken off your plate, or avoid your boss (can you work from home)?

      I also agree with keep job searching that others have said. It made me feel like I had control of *something*, even if nothing was worth applying to. It gave me hope that there would eventually be (and there was!). Knowing that I would eventually get out helped. I hope some of these other tips will help you though. Good luck!

    15. Anonymous Hippo*

      I found eucalyptus essential oiler in a diffuser very helpful. I also have a Xanax prescription from my doctor for when it gets exceptionally bad.

      I also found smoking helped too, but that’s not really a heathy alternative, though it was very effective. BUT, even without smoking, if you act like you are, IE take a break, walk completely away from you desk/work/coworkers and take 5-10 minutes to yourself you will get a lot of the benefit without the nicotine problem.

    16. Rana*

      I’m not usually one for journaling but when I was in a job like this the only thing that helped was the write down (in my super secret journal) exactly what I was most stressed about and then the worst case scenario that I could imagine would come from that. So for me, an example might have been “CEO actively dislikes me” and then I would write “could put pressure on my boss to fire me but I know my boss likes my work and would push back.” For you it might be something like “I completely drop the ball on x project and it doesn’t get done” to which the response might be “my boss is upset with me but we all eventually move on.” Even if the worst-case scenarios are worse than that, I found it really really helped to write it all down and then evaluate how likely I thought it was to really happen.

      And in the end, there’s really nothing worse than “I get fired” and that is not always the disaster it seems either, especially if the job is that stressful. But I did find a lot of relief in just naming my greatest fears, and being able to look at them written down helped me realize that the underlying fears I was having were actually pretty unlikely to happen. Good luck! It sucks sucks sucks to be this stressed at work and I hope you find relief soon.

    17. Anon for this one*

      Not anymore. I did, years ago in grad school when I was studying for my qualifying exams. (As in, throwing up almost every morning from stress levels of stomachache.) Therapy helped. For me the anxiety was situational, so I didn’t need any medications – the therapist recommended some techniques that I found useful, and I only ended up needing a few sessions – so if regular therapy is a financial stretch for you, but a few sessions are doable, view it as you would going to another sort of doctor and see if it’s useful for you.

    18. Anonymous reader*

      Thank you everyone for your help! I’m going to print these out and review them. I appreciate your help.

    19. Onwards and Upwards*

      When I’ve been in this situation, it helped a bit to try and make a secret game I could play or have a silly secret that made me feel “you haven’t crushed my independence yet!” Eg, once I brought a favourite old soft toy (Ducky, a duck
      !) to work in my handbag and all day I had the interior giggle of imagining Ducky keeping me company and being on my side :) Another time I tried to use the word “exactly” once every hour. Another time I tried to mindfully feel the ground under my feet throughout interactions with a bully.

  6. Evelyn O'Connell*

    My interview went well last week and I’ve continued to mine information on the organization after hearing from a former employee (who I trust and have no reason to believe would exaggerate) that things are worse at this org than I thought. It sounds like the problems are coming from two in upper management, maybe one more than the other. The third person, I hear, is fantastic. Everything tracks with the vibe I got during the interview. My latest mining expedition with a current employee confirmed the information I had previously. The thing is, I no longer feel physically, emotionally, or mentally safe in my current position. So even if this place is bad, it’s likely not as bad as my current job. And even if it is, it took me several years to get to this point in my current job…I’m hoping it’ll be some time before I’d start to feel the pain of the new one (which is also a step up, more pay, and a little closer to where I live). I still have serious concerns about the two managers, one of which could be my direct supervisor (that would be determined later, probably when the offer is made).

    The question: Is it a terrible idea to, if it’s offered, ask the third manager something along the lines of, “Especially with the extremely high turnover, I’m a little apprehensive because I’m hearing Jane and Paula are difficult to work with. Is this something that is really being addressed?” (Contacting just the one manager because I did ask about turnover and what’s being done about it, but when I discussed some of those answers with a trusted source, they said those answers from those individuals are basically false boilerplate — again, this tracks with previous information.)

    1. Sick Leave Drama*

      I think you should absolutely do this! I don’t think that language is quite right unless you’re happy to walk away from the job if she’s offended or doesn’t give you the answer you want. “I’ve heard it can be challenging working with Jane and Paula. Can you tell me the kinds of people who have been successful in that and what some of the challenges have been?” might be better (but she’s still quite likely to want to know who said that and it’s not unlikely to get back to Jane and Paula). It’s also true that personalities can be untenable to some people (particularly the ex-employee, who is likely to be more salty) and might not be as bad for you.

      1. Evelyn O'Connell*

        Thank you! Yes, I agree on the language. Being too direct in these situations is a chronic struggle of mine, so I really appreciate the script.

      2. Fran Fine*

        but she’s still quite likely to want to know who said that and it’s not unlikely to get back to Jane and Paula

        This is why I would tread carefully here. Suppose you ask this, and the “good” manager relays what you said back to the other two. This could start a witch hunt on their end to find out who spilled the beans (I know, I’ve seen this happen when various people warned me about going to work in a division that was struggling and then the VP went around asking everyone who scared me off), OR they could wait to hire you and then proceed to make your life miserable for deigning to ask.

        If you can just hold out at your current company a little while longer and continue your job search, I would do that. Don’t jump out of the frying pan and into the fire.

        1. Chilipepper Attitude*

          Evelyn O’Connell could say former employees if she is pressed for an answer. But yeah, be prepared with an answer for that.
          Could a different question to the third manager get the same result?

          There has been a lot of turnover, do you have and insight into the reasons? Can you tell me the kinds of people who have been successful here and what some of the challenges have been?

          Then, depending on the answer, you could add – I asked you because I’m hearing Jane and Paula are harder to work with. Does that ring true to you?

          And, can you tell me how the turnover is being addressed if it is?

          But also, try to hold out for a better job.
          Best of luck to you!

    2. JSPA*

      “Difficult to work with” is probably a no-go. Maybe, if you can name a dynamic that’s something that can happen, without either person being “bad” or “difficult” per se, you can raise that, more specifically.

      “I get the sense that Jane and Paula do not always have the same vision for tasks, such that in the past, people could get caught in the middle. Are there now processes and reporting structures in place to reduce that sort of pinch point?”

      That allows Jane and Paula to each be excellent (whether or not they are), and displaces the question onto process.

      Or maybe the problem is bottlenecks, because they are often absent; again, you can name the problem (“approval bottlenecks”) without calling out people for screwing up.

      Especially if you hope to fly under the radar and make nice as needed for a couple of years, you don’t want to lead with an attack on 2 of 3 top people, and THEN decide you’re still desperate enough to take the job.

  7. KMJ*

    I have a question about whether or not to disclose to my manager that I’m applying to jobs (if I get interviews)

    I know the standard advice is “don’t” but here’s what’s making this case particularly weird:

    1. We work in a niche field and gossip is rampant. My manager’s spouse works on the team I’m applying to. They’ll be part of the interview process, and while I trust everyone there to be professional … spouses is a special case. I’m paranoid that something will slip.

    2. My job is going through some reorg, and my manager has been hinting that I would be considered for management in the next couple months if I’m interested. I have no idea how to handle this conversation, because if I get a new job I will obviously be leaving, but if I stay I would strongly consider the management position. It feels icky to ask them to invest in helping me prepare for management, only to bail right after without warning.

    Am I putting the cart way before the horse here? What would you do?

    1. Sick Leave Drama*

      Oh lord this is really stressful! Honestly I would probably not apply to the spouse’s org if I wasn’t willing to share my job search with my manager and particularly if a promotion was in line. I’m sorry because that sucks and is unfair.

      1. Ashley*

        If it does come from the spouse, the spouse maybe violating their companies confidentiality policy. When submitting your application materials, I would try and talk to someone in advanced of your concerns. I switched jobs in a gossip industry and made it through because they took the confidentiality seriously.

    2. lost academic*

      Absolutely not. You’ll surely get passed over for the new opportunity if you do and it’s at least a couple months out. Anyone could leave at any time for any reason, and they know that.

      Remember, you don’t need to unsay anything you never said in the first place. But you can’t ever take it back once you put it out there.

    3. SherSher*

      Can you have a conversation with her about your trajectory and professional development with the company and maybe use that as an opportunity to interject that you are considering exploring other opportunities? Not as a threat, but just as a way to develop yourself professionally? It really depends heavily on the relationship you have with your boss though and what you know of how they may have handled similar situations. FWIW, even spouses shouldn’t be having those conversations. My husband and I work for the same organization and we avoid talking about personnel things particularly.

    4. Peachtree*

      Can you reach out to the hiring manager or your HR contact at the company and say “just FYI I’m aware that the spouse of my current manager will be involved in the interview process; I wanted to mention it as a heads up prior to meeting”. That way, HR is aware of the issue and may even remove you from the process to ensure fairness. And, if your old manager does find out, they’ll know the source.

    5. cubone*

      for #2: you’re not obligated to adjust your current or future goals just because of a hint. It’s one thing if you are a senior executive and they are restructuring with the understanding of your specific skills/abilities in a leadership role, but personally I don’t think the prospect of a (potential!) promotion means you’re being icky by considering other jobs. You’re allowed to look at what’s out there! If the timing ends up being weird (eg. the promotion materializes and is imminent, and you get a better job offer), “this was a very difficult choice but it’s an opportunity I couldn’t pass on” is fine.

      #1 is more of a tricky problem. I agree with Peachtree’s advice.

    6. Just my 4 cents*

      Easy to say from the outside, but this really shouldn’t be a thing. If spouses work the same niche field, they should be able to understand and handle the confidentiality that comes with interviewing people from their respective companies. I wouldn’t notify the company you are interviewing with because it could actually seem like more of a conflict of interest than it is. You could mention to spouse after the interview that you haven’t told manager that you are interviewing but will obviously do so if you progress further in the hiring process.

    7. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Yes putting the cart before the horse. I know it all feels urgent to figure out now, but until you have an offer in hand, sounds like you would stay with your current company. So keep acting as if you are. Sorry it’s such a rock and a hard place!

    8. Purple Cat*

      Cart before the horse
      Absolutely do not proactively share that you are job searching.
      1) If the spouse says something, that is a breach of confidentiality on their part. You shouldn’t give them a pass. That would be a red flag for you and this opportunity if it happens.
      2) It’s just as possible that your job may be eliminated with the reorg. Managers “hinting” at something in no way shape or form means it will happen. She should be investing in preparing you for management regardless if it’s the next step on the ladder.

    9. anonymous73*

      I still wouldn’t say anything unless she brings it up. You can be matter of fact about it. “I’m keeping my options open.”

      1. tessa*

        Yep. Hard agree with anonymous73, especially the one-sentence script. Perfect thing to say.

  8. Dice To Meet You*

    Does anyone have any credible resources (that look great on a resume!) for teaching yourself data/database analysis?

    My partner currently works as a lab technician so has a scientific data background, just not the training beyond Coursera and free online SQL classes. She loves spreadsheets and she’s got a knack for understanding the building blocks of databases, but she’s stuck figuring out where to look for the instruction needed to start getting workforce experience.

    1. Gnome*

      I hire people with programming experience and almost all have a section for that. I’ve seen a lot of bland Word Doc stuff, stuff with objective statements, stuff with sidebars. Too much formatting and I’ll remember yours as “the green one” which isn’t good.

      No head shots. I am seeing got repositories, LinkedIn URLs, and the like.

      Also, I know Alison hates the objective statement, but I have seen a few people put it to good use since we don’t require cover letters. In particular where there’s clearly a pivot happening (like why after 20 years as an A are you looking and a position as a B?). But it HAS to be short.

      1. Gnome*

        Ok… That was supposed to post elsewhere… Sorry.

        Coursera is good. Practical experience is better. My two cents: find something to database. Like, if your scout troop sells cookies or popcorn, that can lead to a database. Your finances can lead to a database. You can talk about that stuff in an interview, even if it’s not job related.

        Consider MS Access as it’s SQL under the hood and you don’t need to set up server or anything to use it. Lots of concepts will transfer.

    2. SherSher*

      Does she have any projects or accomplishments she can point to that demonstrate the skills? That says more to me than all the training in the world.

      1. Dice To Meet You*

        Unfortunately not! This would be a career shift. Her current experience is focused on day-to-day lab work (titration, use of lab equipment to run samples, etc) (I’m not a lab person so I’m just parroting words she says here, ha) and she can’t get projects without the training.

        1. tessa*

          I wonder if she could take a semester-long course for certification. Likely, or at least possibly, the course capstone would be to set up a relational database for a real-world organization.

          Plus, she would have documentation that her knowledge and skills were measured in a standardized way for accuracy. I think there is a place for teaching one’s self, but I do wonder how people who say they are self-taught measure the accuracy of their knowledge.

          Just my 2.

    3. Lora*

      Codecademy is not my favorite but they seem to be credible as far as what my business school colleagues think is acceptable, for what that’s worth. Free short trial period but then it’s like $12/month. I personally didn’t get much out of it but I’m told other people like it a lot, and they have quite a bit about data analysis and management with different languages and software packages.

      1. Dice To Meet You*

        Very good to know business people find it acceptable! We’ve seen it thrown around a lot online but weren’t sure if it was one of those scams that isn’t immediately obviously as scame.

        1. Lora*

          One of my professors actually required us to use it as part of the class on IT management he taught, and he was an adjunct because his day job was CIO of a very large company you have definitely heard of. He had us pick something relevant to our work and then do a Codecademy certificate in that. Not a scam, I was somewhat annoyed because it takes a while to get into actually using the thing they’re trying to teach you and the examples they have you run through are really oversimplified. Like, they’d walk you through making a git repository and then tell you, “next you’re going to download and install another thing…now use the installation wizard to install another thing…and now install another thing…now check that your git repository is connected again and re-save all the file structures and the data you put there…” and it took a looooooong time to get to any useful programming of projects. There wasn’t a lot of WHY you are doing something, which was also annoying to me: why am I supposed to do this next? why do I need to do this in that particular order? can’t I just work on the project and then upload it afterwards when I’m done with it? But they’re also trying to teach you how to code when you’re working in groups and you have a small piece of a larger project, and there’s an optimal way to do that vs. how you would work out the best way to do something by yourself if you were just playing around. They still don’t explain it, but most of the reasons why they wanted you to do some things (which don’t need to be done at all if you’re me and just messing around with Arduino or whatever) are “because that’s how corporate software development functions”.

    4. Daisy*

      I just signed up for DataCamp last week for professional development. It’s a year subscription paid for by my office. My director says the certifications I can earn there will look good on my resume, but I can’t confirm that yet with personal experience.

      1. Dice To Meet You*

        I hadn’t heard about DataCamp, but looking at it now and it seems promising! Thank you!

      2. Gnome*

        I used DataCamp. I like their format and consider it a good place to get building blocks. Personally, I wouldn’t be super impressed with the certificates on a resume (project work really is best), but I would probably note which courses they took.

    5. T. Boone Pickens*

      I helped an entry level SQL developer find a job that was self-taught. They utilized LinkedIn learning a ton to help them learn the building blocks.

    6. LeftAcademia*

      A tip for job searching. From my experience smaller DataScience departments are more willing to take a risk with out of box applications. Scientific background is definitely a plus. And a warning: data cleaning is a huge part of the job.

    7. NerdAlert*

      I’ve hired for junior data analyst roles before and was looking out for people who demonstrated critical thinking and an interest in data. Any kind of Science background or the kind of online courses you’re talking about were perfect. Skills can be taught but ultimately you need someone who can problem solve. No need to list online course names, but I would put the name of the language in the skills section and rate it as a beginner.

      If she wants to try out some more SQL courses, I’ve used DataCamp in the past and found it very good. The monthly price is not outrageous. I wouldn’t sign up for the year at first – try it out and see. They have career tracks on it so your partner can just go for one of them and they’ll line up the modules for her.

  9. Sick Leave Drama*

    Is anyone else finding it hard to use sick leave in a work from home situation? In my office, it’s the culture to put into Slack when you take sick leave and most people provide a bit of context. Saying “I am taking sick leave today” is out of the norm and would come across as chilly/secretive I think. I am now paranoid about my reasons for sick leave not seeming “good enough” when after all we’re all remote so really couldn’t I still be responsive to email even if I’m a bit under the weather? (To be clear, this is entirely coming from me, not my manager). In my old job it was much easier to take time off because getting dressed up and taking the train was a clear barrier. To make it worse, in this job our sick leave is not that generous and doesn’t roll over, so I do feel like I should get to use what little leave I get. I’m generally fortunate not to need it for big dramatic illnesses.

    1. Echo*

      I think the difference is making the slack message sound warm and friendly. This is basically verbatim the script I use:

      Hi team! Unfortunately I’m not feeling well today, so I’m going to take a day of PTO to relax and recover. If you need XYZ today please reach out to John Doe. Jane, do you mind attending the llama meeting today and letting me know if there are any to-dos for me? Thanks and hope to see you all tomorrow.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I agree. You can give the appearance of an “explanation” without giving any real, substantive details.

    2. urguncle*

      Adding additional context is unnecessary, and I think with some allies in this, you could definitely shift the culture. “I’m not feeling well, I’ll spare you all the details” is more than enough information. If people ask afterwards, just say “I just really needed the rest, thanks for your concern though!”
      I primarily WFH and I agree that it’s tempting to never take a sick day, especially if I don’t have any meetings that day where I need to be on camera. At the same time, I’ve set some boundaries on just taking the damn day when I need it, even for mental health.

      1. Sick Leave Drama*

        Ha yes this is actually my current strategy, to imply without explicitly stating that my reason for sick leave is gross and that’s why I’m not going into any more detail. It’s a bit weird. I know I’m overthinking this. I did it at a past job too so this is clearly a “me problem.”

    3. Rolly*

      Is your job particularly precarious?

      If not, do what you want, even if it’s out of the norm. Someone has to say they are taking sick leave. it’s the right thing to do for yourself AND modeling healthy behaviour.

    4. Cendol*

      Yes, me! I also hate calling out sick on Fridays or Mondays as I’m afraid it will look like I just want a 3-day weekend. But it happens! And even monitoring emails can be hard when you’re under the weather. I had surgery last year and was shocked when I “returned” too soon and an email that would have normally taken me five minutes to write took more than thirty.

      I advise you to “just do it,” as Nike suggests, see what happens, and use that result as evidence to counteract the anxiety you might be feeling. People will seldom be as harsh on you as you are on yourself. And wouldn’t you be generous to a coworker who called out sick and trust their assessment that they needed that time to rest and recover? Perhaps by giving no details you can set an example and nudge your company culture toward not requiring detailed context for sick leave.

      1. Sick Leave Drama*

        I mean honestly I *could* check emails, at least sporadically, if I had to. But – I don’t want to! I want to take my sick day and not think about work! I think this is the crux of my guilt haha.

      2. Sloanicota*

        The worst to me is that I am quite likely to get sick during traveling – from the planes and the new strains of whatever is brewing in another part of the country – so the time I’m most likely to need sick leave is right after a three day weekend or after sometimes (even worse) after the week of vacation I just took. It looks so suspicious! I hate it! And yet every time like clockwork …

        1. Cendol*

          Me too!!! I don’t do well in transit. I always joke that I need a vacation from vacations.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      “I feel lousy,” is plenty of detail. It says you’re sick without specifying what part of your body is doing what, which I often don’t want to know.

    6. Dust Bunny*

      When we’re WFH and out sick, we just . . . don’t check email. The expectation is that we’re not working and thus that we won’t be checking email. If there’s a screaming emergency and for some reason they really do need me, they can call, but email can wait.

      And they don’t need to know anything more about your sick leave than that you’re sick, so they have no basis for it not seeming good enough.

    7. RabidChild*

      Two things come to mind: First, just because it’s not the norm, couldn’t you still say, “I am not well today and will be unavailable”? It’s not really anyone’s business unless it causes a disruption in the work, and that’s up to your boss to deal with.

      Second, I am a migraine sufferer and what it’s taught me is that non-sufferers understand very little about it but give me a lot of grace, typically. If you’re not averse to a white lie, perhaps this one would work?

    8. EMP*

      “Not feeling good, think I ate something that disagreed with me” is my go-to vague, plausible, unlikely to cause follow up white lie when needed. I tend to check slack once or twice if I’m really just taking a mental health day because otherwise it’s too much to catch up on the next day, but take that sick time!

    9. ecnaseener*

      No, I think you’re fine just saying you’re under the weather / not feeling well / a little sick. If questioned (not that I think that’s likely, but you’ll feel better to have scripts in your back pocket) then you say you’re too tired/out of it to focus on work and you’re going to try to sleep all day.

    10. cubone*

      my go to was “I’m really not feeling well today, so I’m going to take a sick day and rest/recover. I’ll be offline but contact [supervisor] if you need anything”. It’s vague but doesn’t come across as ‘mysterious’ and I find using the word ‘offline’ addressed the “checking emails anyways” bit.

      If the choice is between a) prioritizing your health vs. b) doing something nice and helpful for your workplace (like checking emails), always choose A.. Always.

      1. Sloanicota*

        This is a good script and I appreciate “rest/recover” more than “relax” as suggested above.

    11. Random Bystander*

      I’ve been WFH since March 2020 (now permanent WFH) and I have taken some days off (we don’t have separate buckets for regular PTO and sick days–it’s all rolled into one bucket) when I wasn’t feeling well. Once I got the time off approved and entered into the time keeping system, I restart my computer (what I do every day at end of day) which logs me out of everything, and then I turn the monitors off (so the screensavers don’t come up) and just do not think about work until the next day that I am clocking in to do work.

      If you really need to do an out-of-office sort of message, I’d just go with a very bland “Under the weather [today], if you need something immediately, please contact [insert appropriate info], otherwise I’ll get back to you when I return.”

    12. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I am currently taking a sick day. I responded to a couple of emails this morning, emailed my manager, and shut off my computer. Strangely I’ve found it easier to take a sick day when WFH – if I feel like I need it, then I’m going to really take one.

    13. Jean*

      There’s nothing chilly or secretive about saying “I’m taking a sick day today.” Seems a bit like your internalized guilt over using PTO is causing some projection there. It’s your time, you’ve earned it, you’re entitled to take it, and no one else needs to be looped in on the details of your personal life. I don’t want to know context of why my colleagues are taking sick time. Not because I don’t care about them, but because it’s none of my business. And I expect the same courtesy from them.

    14. anonymous73*

      “I don’t feel well so I’m taking the day off.” *

      You don’t need to provide details, and WFH doesn’t mean you’re not allowed sick days. I don’t get sick much, but my rule of thumb was this pre-COVID. If I felt okay but was contagious, I would work remotely (like a head cold or mild illness). If I had something that made me extra tired or feel so crappy that naps are needed/I couldn’t concentrate on anything more than trash tv/I needed to be close to the bathroom at all times, I took off. My rules haven’t changed since I started WFH full time 2+ years ago.

      *Not feeling well can pertain to anything, physical or mental.

    15. OtterB*

      We usually say in our Slack message something like “Under the weather,” maybe with more detail or maybe not, and then either “checking e-mail intermittently” or “offline until tomorrow.” Possibly adding “Text me if something is urgent” depending on how that’s likely to work. My role doesn’t really have emergencies, and my colleagues’ judgement is good, so I have never been texted under those circumstances. It’s paradoxically more relaxing to say that and know that if I haven’t heard from anyone, then nothing is on fire and I don’t need to worry about whether I should make a quick email check.

    16. Koalafied*

      Agree with everyone else, keep it short and sweet and don’t feel the need to justify with details why you can’t work while sick. Let that be self-evident from the fact that you’re taking a sick day. “I’m really not feeling well this morning and need to take the day off to get better.” Or, “I woke up feeling awful and won’t be able to work today.”

      If you’re willing and able, you can throw in something like, “I’ll try to check in on email from bed a couple of times later today if I’m feeling up to it, in case I can answer any quick questions to keep things moving, but I can’t make any promises that I’ll be able to – and any work requests will have to wait until I’m feeling better, hopefully tomorrow.” It would also likely be fine to say, “I’ll be totally offline, so please direct any time-sensitive questions to Boss while I’m recuperating.”

    17. JSPA*

      “Unfortunately, I’m sick enough to have to take a sick day” should work.

      If it’s something of limited duration, whether it actually IS food poisoning, or hellacious PMS, or whatever:

      “”Unfortunately, I’m sick enough to have to take a sick day; this sort of thing is usually better in 24 hours, so I hope to be back with you tomorrow”

      should prevent people from wanting to know more.

    18. Anonosaurus*

      I get this, but if you are sick you need to rest and doing more or less a day’s work is not resting. I usually say something like “hi guys I’m under the weather today (not covid!)* so I’m going back to bed and won’t be checking emails, text me if there’s anything urgent. Hopefully it’s just a 24-hour thing but I’ll let you know tomorrow how things are. Please can you call x and reschedule our call for later this week? (Or whatever).”

      * – I put this in because we have hybrid working and I don’t want to freak anyone out if I was on site the day before! Thankfully it’s been true up til now

  10. Glitterbomb*

    Well an update from last Friday (I took the plunge and started looking for a new job). I’ve had three different phone interviews (same company) since last Wednesday to yesterday. Yesterday was the final one, with other same level staff as the position I applied for. The second was with the actual VP I direct report to. It’s all happening so fast, but it sounds good, right? Maybe? I think the timeline is them extending an offer to the selected person next week.

    2. voluptuousfire*

      It sounds like it’s moving swiftly. Do you have any reservations or you’re a little confused at the opportunity moving quickly? I could see how you’d be surprised by that.

    4. WoodswomanWrites*

      I don’t think moving quickly is itself anything to worry about. They likely need the position filled. What is important from your end is that you are able to ask whatever questions you have along the way and are satisfied with their responses. If they’re not giving you the chance to do that–you’re interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you–then that’s a problem. Or if they offered you the job without talking to your references.

      But if that’s not the case, and you’re mutually interested, you can be grateful that the process isn’t dragging out for months. Good luck!

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      I’m currently hiring and things are moving a lot faster than they used to. We posted a couple positions back in January and by the time the internal recruiting team gathered and reviewed resumes, did an initial phone screen, and finally got the info to us, more than 80% of the candidates had multiple offers in hand. We finally got on the same page with the talent team and now they are basically sending us every resume that ticks the boxes and we skip the HR phone screen. The person we hired two weeks ago applied on Monday and we sent the offer Friday.

    6. Michael Scott*

      I think things move faster right now especially for high demand jobs. I’m currently interviewing with 2 companies. Both skipped an initial 5-15 minute phone call I normally get with hr straight to the first interview with a hiring manager. I went from first interview on Friday to a 2nd interview the next Thursday and an offer the next day. It was really crazy!!!!

  11. El Camino*

    Happy Friday y’all!

    TLDR: Has anyone had a successful approach to talk to a boss who’s kind of a jerk about being more mindful of their tone/demeanor?

    Some background: Our work consists of overlapping deadlines, quick turnarounds, and working with multiple teams of varying degrees of reliability. It also requires sharp attention to detail, so it’s a high stress environment. I’ve had a recurring issue with my boss using a short, snippy, and frequently adversarial tone when we’re reviewing projects together before a deadline. It’s this accusatory way of talking down to me that makes me feel stupid. When we were remote on Teams calls I could save face and cry after a meeting in the privacy of my own home, but now we’re back in the office a few times a week and she’s snapped or barked orders at me in front of other people. Literally cut me off when I was introducing myself to a new colleague: “Stop talking, I need you to help me [fix this tech issue].”

    She’s super rude (and yes, she does have a reputation for it) but she’s a workhorse, so I know she’s not likely to change and the organization would kind of be screwed if they lose her. She recognizes when she’s upset someone and apologizes, but the behavior just repeats again so it feels meaningless.

    I’ve gotten much better at not taking it personally after being here a year and a half, but I’m still frustrated and want to be able to advocate for myself. I want to remind her that we’re on the same team and want the same outcome – we can approach a problem together to find a solution and it would be so much more helpful if she stopped talking to me in this way. Would it be a waste of my time?

    1. Sick Leave Drama*

      Ugh this is so hard I find. It very much depends on the individual. I had an old supervisor like that and I didn’t judge she’d be responsive to feedback so basically she just lost my loyalty as I did the minimum required and tried to avoid her when I could. If she’d been reasonable we could likely have worked it out better. Sometimes people who are very task-oriented like this will actually respect someone who sets a boundary around how they expect to be treated; it depends on the individual and varies widely though. It’s probably worth it for your personal evolution to try at least once – maybe right in the moment when it happens? “I feel like this is strangely adversarial right now. Could you please try to keep our editing notes a bit more positive? We’re all on the same side here!”

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Do you feel like you have standing to push back in real time?

      My experience with people like this is that, yes, it’s often a waste of time–my mother is like this and it’s made her life harder but she’s convinced herself that she cannot change and that everyone else is unfair for asking it of her–but if you think you can without jeopardizing your job, you can say, “There’s no call to bite my head off; just tell me what help you need,” or whatever addresses the situation.

      Also, if your organization is that dependent on her, there’s a bigger problem here.

      1. Dino*

        This. And since she’s a workhorse, maybe appeal to her sense of timeliness. “I work faster and more focused when I’m not getting my head bitten off, can you try being mindful of your tone? Same as you, I want to get [this] taken care of ASAP.” Not sure if that’s the right tone for your particular boss so tweak as necessary.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Provided I can do so without being fired, I am 100% not opposed to making things less efficient when she’s insulting. I’ll work with people but if they’re going to be rude, I’ll wait until they simmer down. The longer it takes them to rein it in, the longer it will take to get [thing] done.

        1. Sloanicota*

          Right, with people who are just so task based that they don’t realize they’re being rude, you may be as direct as “I’m not going to continue to work on this when you speak to me that way” and they may actually course-correct because they are only interested in the efficiency and indifferent to the social dynamics. But if she’s rude because she has the power and enjoys flexing that, this is likely the exact opposite approach you’d want to take.

          1. Dust Bunny*

            All of this is dependent on the boss not being fundamentally abusive. If it’s a power thing, then the only solution is to find a new boss.

        2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          Yes — a long, calm stare as you say “Yes, of course, just a minute,” then calmly return to the person you were talking to, complete the thought that was interrupted, say that you will come back to them after you have addressed this new situation. Slow turn back to the boss, “Let’s go to your office and discuss what the issue is that you are having,” because of course you won’t disrupt the first person’s personal space by having a conversation in it.

          Just modeling a bit of the excruciatingly polite and respectful.

      3. Jean*

        This is where I come down as well. A calm, simple “It’s not necessary to talk to me so rudely in order to get things done” and then change the subject/move on with the discussion. If she wants to make it an issue at that point, then SHE’s the one wasting time and causing a delay, and you can come at it from that angle. “We can talk about this more after we’ve put this fire out.” And then sit down with her one on one in a quiet moment and tell her that you’re having a hard time with her brusqueness. Just because she’s a “workhorse” doesn’t mean she’s allowed to have no expectation of the same soft skills that everyone else is held to.

    3. Bagpuss*

      I don’t think it would be a waste of time to have that conversation – perhaps if it happens again , then you could say those things after the event – if she then apologizes, maybe add that it’s frustrating that she apologizes but her behaviour doesn’t change.
      Perhaps you could give specific examples – e.g. say to her
      “last week I was in the middle of introducing myself to Romesh when you interrupted, told me to ‘stop talking and that you needed my help. That came over as really rude and aggressive. Had you said something like ‘Sorry to interrupt, but I need your help to fix the laser targeting programme and it’s urgent because Dr. Evil needs it by 4.30’ you would have got my attention and help without being ruse or aggressive – and I work better when I’m not upset or angry, so it would help both of us”

      another option might be to address it in the moment – e.g. if she interrupts or barks orders at you, try to be really calm – maybe in the example you gave you could have said something to the other person “Sorry about the interruption, excuse me a moment” then to boss “I’m right in the middle of something, I will be with you in a few moments, I am aware of the urgency”

    4. TodoList*

      I’ve had bosses like this before, and it’s a very difficult situation. I’m the kind of person to speak up and ask for changes, but when I’ve tried, it hasn’t ever resulted in a positive behavior / communication shift. Depending on the rest of the context and people involved, it could backfire on you. If you have some political capital and a good relationship with your boss’s boss, it might be worth considering talking to them about it. For me, when I got to the point of crying regularly after interacting with a mean and rude boss, the job was no longer salvageable (but that might not be the case for you!). If I were in your shoes, I’d be either job searching or trying to set up an internal transfer or manager change (or working on both & going with the best option you find).

    5. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Yeah this boss sounds awful. Until they face the consequences of their actions and behavior, sounds like they won’t change. But if your job is causing you to cry, I would start looking for a new one if you can. Otherwise practice letting their rudeness roll off you back (which is easier said than done!) Like viewing them as a cartoon villain or something. But if you can, I would look elsewhere. You are a person deserving of respect!

    6. AnonNurse*

      I’m so sorry to hear this. Your Boss’s behavior is awful.

      As a nurse for 20+ years, unfortunately I’ve been on the receiving end of similar rude behavior from nursing supervisors and physicians.

      One thing I did learn was that standing up for myself in the moment was important. Sounds like your boss has a bullying streak in her. Bullies thrive on punch down, but often stops when someone pushes back on their behavior. What worked for me was saying “Please don’t speak to me that way” in the moment. When I said that, they were usually taken aback. It took some practice, but it was the only thing that worked.

      BTW, if her apologies felt meaningless, it is probably because they are meaningless. She knew what she was doing and how her behavior affects her direct reports. At this point, I would just view her apologies as attempts to manipulate others into summitting to her terrible behavior.

    7. anonymous73*

      It may be pointless but I would still do it. The best way to have a big talk about a difficult subject is to do it outside of the moment it happens. You will be calmer and less upset, and it may have more impact. If she reacts in a way that tells you she’s willing to change, call her out in the moment when she does it after the big talk. But if she’s not receptive, there’s probably not much you can do about it, other than working for someone who doesn’t treat you so disrespectfully.

    8. Jora Malli*

      You say she always apologizes when she realizes she’s crossed a line, so maybe you can try using one of those conversations as a jumping off point. Next time she apologizes for snapping at you, don’t say “that’s okay” or anything else along those lines. Thank her for realizing that she crossed a line. If you can come up with a script that you would feel comfortable saying, you can add something about how this happens a lot and you’d prefer it if she changed her behavior.

      1. Jora Malli*

        Thinking more, I may have a script to offer you.

        “Thank you for apologizing. I’d prefer it if you made more of an effort to keep from yelling at me in the future.”

    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yeah, with that “stop talking” incident, I’d be likely to pause, blink, look at her for a few seconds, and then say, “of course I’m happy to help.” Then, when that fire was out, I would say, “Jane, can I say something about what happened a minute ago? I was introducing myself to NewColleague, trying to start our working relationship off on a good footing, and you interrupted me with an order to ‘stop talking.’ I know we’re all under a lot of pressure here, but frankly, when you talk to me like that, it makes the situation a lot more stressful than it needs to be (especially when it happens in front of other people), and that added stress can make it harder to focus on the problems at hand and work to the best of my ability. You are always good about apologizing when you hurt someone’s feelings, which I appreciate, but I–and I think many others here–would appreciate it even more if you could try to be more conscientious about how you talk to people to begin with. We’re all on the same team here, and we are all working hard.”

    10. RagingADHD*

      Whatever you say, make sure it’s a script you are comfortable repeating frequently and immediately when it happens.

      A long-term, engrained habit like this is not going to be solved by one big talk. You’re going to have to push back repeatedly in order to retrain her in how she speaks to you.

      “We are on the same team here, Jane.” or “That’s uncalled for.” might be places to start.

    11. JSPA*

      While there’s no reason to presume that this stems from disability, would it help if you internally reframed it as, “poor dear, she can’t help it”? Whether she has a delay/deficit in social training, a delay/deficit in awareness of others, a delay/deficit in self-awareness, a delay/deficit in language tone awareness, is stuck in a pattern that she can’t seem to break, or was consistently spoken to that way as a child, and resultingly has to put disproportionate mental energy into not using that tone–who knows!

      But (unless it’s bad enough to change jobs), choosing to frame it as, “when she’s in a high-energy flow state, she gives up or loses some of her ability to handle normal social interaction” may be more comfortable for you than focusing on the certainty that she, consciously and with malice, doesn’t respect you, doesn’t care about letting it show, and isn’t putting any effort into fixing the problem.

      That said, if she herself admits it’s a recurrent problem, you could perhaps ask, next time she apologizes: “rather than doing apologies after the fact, is there anything you can suggest that we can both do, to change the pattern, in the moment?”

      Some managers do ascribe to the work-equivalent of a safe-word, to let them know they need to dial it down, in the moment. Others find it distracting, painful, enraging, or it just doesn’t penetrate.

      Would an, “it’s not you, it’s me” from her, do the trick? Could you bring a bit of momentary filtering selective amnesia to bear? Is there some sort of recognition that would compensate adequately?

      If not, then not! What then? I’d say, given the job market, it’s not wrong to look. There may be a thousand people you’d work with better, as you are…and also a solid number of people who’d work better with her, as she is.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Perpetuating the false idea that disability = being a rude, hostile jerk does nobody any favors. Especially people who actually have disabilities, who then have to overcome even more stigma, bias, and infantilization.

        This person has enough agency and self-control to become the boss. I guarantee she didn’t get that position by talking to her superiors and clients the way she talks to her subordinates.

        1. JSPA*

          Nowhere did I present this mental, internal self- message as fact. But when someone won’t change, and you won’t or can’t leave, it can really quiet the internal conflict to assign a reason you can live with, and that leaves you able to work with the person.

          “She is evil” would leave my stomach roiling in anticipatory anger, before she even walked in. “She has a mental block and can’t figure out out in real time” would (and has) equipped me with the grace to mentally step back, when i wasn’t in a position to physically step out.

          I’m not talking about excusing or explaining. I’m talking about reframing.

          I thought my use of the (highly judgemental!) “poor dear, she can’t help it”–a phrase that basically means, “she is a jerk, vicious, or impaired, don’t push to find out which” should have adequately signaled this.

    12. Anonosaurus*

      Honestly, if the boss is making you cry then it’s time to look for another job in my book. But if that isn’t possible it may be worth having a bigger picture conversation along the lines of “on X and Y days you snapped at me when [whatever we were doing]. I appreciate that you apologised afterwards, but I’m concerned that this keeps happening. Not only is it having a significant effect on how I feel about coming to work, I feel that we could achieve so much more if we worked more collaboratively. At the moment I don’t feel that I can collaborate with you effectively because rather than seeking my input or asking me to do something in a respectful and appropriate way, you give orders in a way that is peremptory and to be completely honest, rude. Can we have a discussion about how to work together more effectively?”

      As others I’ve also said you can address this in the moment by calling her on the rudeness while still doing the work task required.

      A long time ago I was a bit like your boss and somebody came to me a short while after an incident like that and said words to the effect of “I know you’re the boss and I know this needed to be done but I’m not prepared to be spoken to like that at work”. That had a big impact on me. I like to work quickly and I can be impatient and there are times I still want to bark orders people but you just can’t do that (rightly) so I have worked hard to address this and it’s literally years since I have had any issues with this behaviour. However I changed because I could see there would be consequences for me if I didn’t (and also I’m not an a****** hopefully). If there aren’t really any consequences for your boss she might not be willing to change and if that is the case then you know what Alison says…

  12. Professional Emailer*

    I’m curious what everyone thinks about tagging people in emails. For instance: if I’m including more than one person on an email but only some have action items, I would @PersonINeedActionFrom in the body of the email next to the action item. People at my last job did it a lot and it was helpful when scanning my inbox to know which emails to address first. But I’ve only come across one or two people to do it at my current job. Should I start doing it? Do you find it annoying?

      1. Sherm*

        Yes — In Outlook at least, “@Person” gets highlighted in the email text, and this person also gets an “@” in the pre-opened email next to the sender’s name. I personally love it, because people get a ton of emails and may tune out early in the message. The “@” thing helps flag to a reader that a reader’s attention really is needed.

        1. Professional Emailer*

          Yes! This was why it was such a favorite feature of mine. And, for the sender, it automatically adds the person you tag to the To: field. It’s a small convenience but nice.

        2. Echo*

          Cool! Yeah, I’d keep using it, @Professional Emailer (if only it worked the same way here on AAM!) and assume your colleagues are like me and just don’t know how it works.

    2. lost academic*

      I will bold/highlight in the text when making it clear that someone is in charge of a specific action item.

      1. Rolly*

        And start each on a new line, so their name is first on each line

        Rolly – please you follow up on the data import
        Polly – can you line up possible vendors?

      2. Koalafied*

        That’s the convention where I work as well. If there are any action items, bold the name of the person who needs to take action. Also bolding the deadline by which they must act, if there is one.

    3. BusyBee*

      I like it! I sometimes forget the ability to do that exists until I see someone doing it, and then I’m like “oh yeah! Tagging! That’s efficient!” So it could be a situation where folks aren’t using simply because it’s not top of mind.

      2. Professional Emailer*

        Good point! I started this job last year so I was trying to follow what others were doing while I got the hang of the email culture but now may be a good time to start doing it.

    4. Emilia Bedelia*

      I find it helpful to indicate what you are actually asking for from a specific person, or indicating why a person has been added to the chain. I find just blindly CC’ing is less effective in getting people to actually respond.
      I tag people all the time and I get tagged all the time – I don’t think it comes through as anything other than a normal email, and I don’t think it’s annoying at all. Much better than sending everything as Important, or sending “gentle reminders” every day when people don’t reply!

      1. Professional Emailer*

        Agreed, and it’s admittedly helpful in getting me to respond to others. Questions just thrown out for the group to answer tend to get lost in my inbox where as a direct tag is something I intentionally address.

    5. Neurodivergentsaurus Rex (she/her)*

      This is very common at my organization. I always do it in the scenario you mention, at least for people who I know are included on many, many emails and sometimes are “for awareness” and sometimes “I need you to respond to this before we can go further.”

    7. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I @ people ALL THE TIME. I know there was a time before this was a feature in tools like Outlook, but I never want to go back!

    8. Brightwanderer*

      I’m not exactly disagreeing with the previous commenters, but I guess I’ll say that this is a feature of Outlook I’ve never seen used, and if you started doing it in work emails to me, my knee-jerk impression would be that you were a bit too used to social media and were treating email correspondence like Twitter. And my associations with @ in that context is more like calling someone out/shaming them/putting them on the spot. (Or at least, that WOULD have been my reaction before seeing the comments up thread, which have made it clear to me that I’m off-base here.) So I guess that might be a consideration if it’s not a convention your organisation uses already.

      1. Professional Emailer*

        This is definitely something I want to be cognizant of and mostly why I asked this question. I like it and find it useful but don’t want it to be off-putting if the recipient is not used to it. I’m in digital marketing – not exactly social but not too far removed – so some may be familiar but others may not like it. Thanks for the POV!

        1. eisa*

          Making it clear whom exactly you are asking to do X / answer Y ist very useful.
          At my company, we use @ all the time; but if you are concerned it might look too twitter-y, other formats work just as well .

          @MyersJanet Please nominate a person from your team for this task.
          @ Janet correct me if I’m wrong
          Wakeen: please provide the current version of the document.
          Cersei, Sansa – please coordinate about this topic.

          (picking one of the styles of course)

          The difference between the first and second is that you can choose whether you want to use the mentioned Outlook feature mentioned by others, or just use @ firstname (which I personally prefer).

          To counter Brightwanderer’s statement
          “my knee-jerk impression would be that you were a bit too used to social media and were treating email correspondence like Twitter.”
          in my knee-jerk opinion, someone who feels like that is the one that is (a bit too) used to social media and imagines Twitter shaming in a normal feature of email correspondence … but this probably depends very much on the background / field of work.
          In journalism or other Twitter-adjacent fields, the recipients’ minds would probably indeed go to Twitter immediately; in more, let’s say, stodgy fields (finance, industry, tech, ..), I think people are quite able to differentiate between professional office communication and social media and the latter will often not be on their radar at all while they are at work.

      2. Purple Cat*

        I like the feature, and I think some nuance to Brightwanderer’s feedback, is that you shouldn’t @ somebody just to say hi or be social. (Not that I think you would). It’s super-hepful when on project emails to multiple people that the recipients know exactly what’s expected of them. Especially if there tends to be a lot of update emails not requiring action, and then all of a sudden an action is needed.

        I love that it automatically puts the people in the “to”. Helpful when you’re dropping a task on somebody that wasn’t on the email chain before.

      3. Be kind, rewind*

        Yeah, this can depend on what it’s used for. I have a coworker that uses the @ callout every time someone’s name is used, not necessarily because that person needs to provide input or has an action item. I find it to be overkill. Kind of like using the ! for every email.

      4. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

        Engineering/manufacturing perspective here. @ tagging is used in Jira and Microsoft Teams to trigger an email to a specific member of the project.
        Since that’s where I used it first, I don’t think of it as primarily social media. (Even though I’ve since joined twitter.)

      5. BlackbeltJones*

        This is a coincidence! I received an email today where someone was tagged. This was the first time I’d ever seen this at work, and I had the same thought: “A little too much Twitter, MaryLou?”

        I learned something today – thanks, OP!

    9. anonymous73*

      I wasn’t aware of this feature but I may be stealing it now! I wouldn’t find it annoying – I use my inbox as a to do list. I usually just bold and highlight people’s names in an email if more than one has an action item.

    10. Quaremie*

      I love this feature. I have my email rules set up so that anytime I am tagged, The email also gets flagged. I work heavily off of rules and flagged emails so I find this extremely helpful. (Except for when the trail goes on forever and every single response gets flagged. But oh well, at least I don’t miss important things.) I remember when people first started using it, I did think it felt a little over the top but it didn’t take long before I realized its utility.

    11. @IT_Manager*

      My workplace seems to have informally started using this over the last year and I love it. I get hundreds of emails a day and it is SO HELPFUL to get tagged!

      Plus in outlook at least, @-ing someone automatically adds them to the To: line so you don’t forget people.

    12. @IT_Manager*

      Also – you may already know this but I leaned recently that you can now tag people in almost any Microsoft product (I believe only via O365) in the comments, and it will email them a notice, and in some cases also assign an action to them that you can track.

      So when I say “@wakeen can complete this section”, it emails Wakeen to say he’s been tagged in document X, with a helpful link to go edit. Extremely helpful.

  13. Echo*

    I applied for an internal job posting (lateral move) at my company and the HR rep offered to chat with me to answer any questions. What should I ask her if I take her up on her offer? Salary and benefits are identical to my current role.

    1. RabidChild*

      Treat it as any other pre-screen interview or call. Ask her questions about the role that you need answers to–they’ll be different from the questions an outsider might ask since you already know about benefits etc., but you’ll be able to find out why the position is open (if you don’t know), a bit about the manager and the team, the compensation structure if relevant, the growth path, etc.

      1. Echo*

        Thanks! I talked to the hiring manager about all of these (and I’m also talking to the person who last had the role) but now that you mention it, it’ll be instructive to see if anyone’s answers are different.

    2. Fabulous*

      Hi! I just went through this exact thing and made the lateral move at my company! First things first, this might actually be considered a first interview for you, so I’d treat it as such. Some of the questions I asked at this stage were:

      How is the team structured?
      What specific traits is the hiring manager looking for that may not be in the job description?
      I’d also ask how flexible salary is and whether there is a cap on internal transfer salary increases.

      2. Fran Fine*

        That last question is so important. I’ve seen some people take internal transfers and get no raise (even if they went somewhere they’d be doing more work), it even happened to me a long time ago, so I would want that clarified.

    3. JSPA*

      She may be trying to pump you for why you are eager to get away from the current job. If you don’t want to spill about personalities (if that’s part of it), have a canned response ready about enthusiasm for widget maintenance, or feeling that your llama polishing skills are going to waste. Beyond that, do the standard, “why is the job open” and the rest of the external spiel.

      Of course, because she’s internal, if you want her to spill, you can always ask, “Do you have a sense of how [new manager’s] management style compares to [old manager, and maybe any other managers you’ve had or observed closely, in house]? What sorts of initiative does she expect and encourage? How is she on guidance? Does she have any declared strong opinions that are common knowledge, that I should know about, going into the job? Do her implied expectations and unstated requirements differ markedly from those of [old boss]?”

      If she’s strict in-office, or believes that only lazy people sleep past 5 AM, or micromanages, this is stuff HR may well know, and be able to let you know, at least in guarded language.

  14. Spearmint*

    This is part sincere question and part venting, but why aren’t more employers willing to hire employees for potential and then provide extensive training? You’d think the strong job market would make employers more willing to hire inexperienced candidates for entry-level roles, that it would be in their economic interest to do so. Yet even supposedly entry-level job ads still contain a laundry list of requirements and seem to be searching for someone who has preexisting experience in their specific field. I get why this was the case back when the job market was weaker, but now everyone is talking about labor shortages and employers being desperate.

    If you’re a hiring manager, are you open to non-traditional candidates who would require training? If not, why not?

    1. Sick Leave Drama*

      Yeah this job market doesn’t seem that great to me. I maybe do see more positions posted but the norms and salaries are exactly the same in my field as ever.

      1. Trying to Change Careers*

        I am looking to change careers so I’m not the greatest expert on this, but I have had a few interviews with no offers and have been struggling lately to get past the first round. (Three of my last four interviews I only got the phone screen, and one screen got cut short because the HR rep said I didn’t have the experience they wanted. In the fourth I went to the second round but ultimately lost out in the end.) I’m trying to get into instructional design and my understanding is that the market has been flooded with transitioning teachers so every job gets piles of applicants. I am exhausted and people who give me advice (even those in the ID field) treat me like I’m a teenager who doesn’t know how interviews work even though I’m in my 30s and have been working consistently for years now!

        I told a friend of mine yesterday that I understand why she went full freelance haha. The option to do it is tempting.

      2. Alice*

        I agree that the job market doesn’t seem great. New hires in my org, hired at the level that I was hired at, are offered a salary in the range 65-72k, and I’d be hugely surprised if inexperienced people were getting the top half of the range. My own starting salary, adjusted for inflation, was 74k — that is, above the top of the range that’s offered now.

      3. Spearmint*

        My theory is that it’s really tight in certain fields, especially certain service sector and blue collar fields, but that the entry level job market for white collar fields may not be quite as good.

        1. Wino who says Ni*

          Bingo! Getting people to apply for, much less show up for interviews for these kinds of jobs, is such a struggle.

    2. Eco-Logical*

      I have been hiring for an entry level job recently. The reasons are two fold – one is that in my field (YMMV), even entry level jobs are still attracting decent numbers of applicants with non-zero levels of experience. We had about 50 applicants, of those the 8-10 strongest all had experience, we interviewed 4, offered the job to one. So it was in my interests to list some desirable skills because, well, we got people with those desirable skills! The other is that if the right person with a bit more experience came along, we could have increased the salary and made it a bit higher than an entry level job for them. So even though there is a shortage of people in my industry *generally*, there isn’t a shortage at entry level at all, so it makes no sense for me to exclude those people from the recruitment process. We were open to recruiting someone with zero experience if needed, but we didn’t need to.

      1. Spearmint*

        That’s interesting to me. Why would there be a shortage of candidates overall but not of entry-level candidates?

          1. Siege*

            They actually aren’t, but I don’t know how that plays into this situation. Across my state, all colleges are down for admissions and for continuing students. A lot of International students went home at the start of the pandemic and a lot of them haven’t come back. A lot of people who would typically be entering school with the (projected) economic downturn of the pandemic didn’t because there wasn’t money and the pandemic was in high gear. And then the downturn was very different than projected. Education is still reeling at all levels, and frankly is at real risk right now, which for-profit entities are getting very excited to leap on.

        2. Eco-Logical*

          Basically because my industry is notorious for being badly paid and having absolutely nonsense ideas about hours. You already have to work out of hours to do the job (as in, it is literally not possible to count bats during normal office hours), and then the sector has historically had a habit of sending people out to 4 sites a week, and expecting them in the office during the day, sometimes offering only seasonal posts and expecting them to sleep in their car etc. It’s bad. There is a huge shortage of senior people, because in my country a) some big infrastructure projects have sucked them up, b) it’s extremely normal to either leave the industry or go freelance because you cannot sustain the life and c) construction is absolutely booming here.

          But! It’s an environmental job! Universities are churning out more graduates than there are jobs for them (see above re seasonal posts – which did I add you need a car and a driving licence to do, and they’re often zero hours). People are desperate to break into the industry. It’s just the reality of it which breaks them.

          This has all coincided with people like me having lived through the 2008/9 recession, when a whole generation of my peers was unceremoniously made redundant. We’re the people who would have been in those senior roles now. But some of us set up freelance (me), and more left the industry entirely. So there’s a huge skills gap at the top.

        3. JSPA*

          There are always more people who know “not much” than who know “a whole lot.”

          Firms rarely need 50 people who know “not much,” so often as they need 5 people who know “a whole lot.”

          And every one of those people has exactly one body, and that body needs healthcare, benefits, social safety net payments, etc. That makes it far, far less cost effective to hire 5 people in hopes of finding two keepers, than to hire two people who have the minimum skills.

    3. Echo*

      Earnest answer: I think a lot of companies ARE willing to do that, and this is one of those things that’s just a convention. It would look strange and out-of-touch to post a job with no requirements.

      If you have volunteered or interned, that counts as experience. I’d go by Alison’s usual rule that you only really need to meet something like 60-80% of the listed requirements, and add that you can think of the requirements as another way of saying “here’s how you should tailor your description of your past volunteer/intern/temp/student leadership/whatever experience”. I got my first job with that kind of resume.

      2. Echo*

        Oh, one caveat, I’m not talking about highly technical roles. With those, I often wonder the same thing as you. If you’d hire people out of a bootcamp, why not just launch your own bootcamp and hire your ‘A’ students directly? You could tailor the training to the specific type of work they’d do on the job and you’d see real work examples before hiring (plus you’d know if they’re a total jerk or something like that). Theoretically you could even get them to pay for the bootcamp and make it income-generating, but that seems morally questionable for a number of reasons.

    4. Marie*

      I think it has a lot to do with the changing/changed nature of the employer-employee relationship.

      We’ve all heard that people in today’s workforce jump ship after a few years. That’s largely employers’ faults…if you have no loyalty to me, the employee, then I have no loyalty to you. And so we moved away, culturally, from a model where people stayed at a job forever to a model where people move around.

      Now from the employer’s perspective, they don’t want to invest in an employee if the employee is just going to leave. They want an employee who’s ready to go “out of the box” because then they don’t have to spend time and money training someone who will just take that training to another company.

      It’s not a great situation all around…I understand the lack of loyalty toward employers, but it makes it harder to get in when employers are basically treating you like a contractor.

    5. CTT*

      I direct you to Alison’s response to the letter “Why don’t hiring managers look for potential in people?”

      Also, while employers may be “desperate,” not every job can have a warm body as its only qualification, even if it’s one with a lot of potential. I’ve been doing more training over the past two years and it’s HARD, even if you have a plan, and it takes a long time to learn. Employers have to balance the appeal of someone with potential with their immediate needs.

      1. Spearmint*

        I have read that article, and it made sense at the time (she mentions employers getting flooded with overqualified applicants), but it makes less sense to me now when you hear all the stories of employers struggling to find people to hire. An empty position is not fulfilling immediate needs.

        1. Sloanicota*

          Honesty I find that the positions they are struggling to fill are either front-line customer service roles that people don’t want to do anymore for the old price point (because there are more remote job options now and/or because frontline jobs that offer no sick leave or insurance aren’t worth it anymore in a pandemic) – or the very specialized top-level jobs where they are still looking for a ton of experience. And I guess tech jobs, but those have always been in demand and it’s just gotten worse.

        2. CTT*

          But if the amount of training required is such that it will take six months for someone with no experience to be able to competently do it on their own, then it’s also not fulfilling immediate needs to hire someone who’s only asset is potential. And I say this as someone who has been in the position both as the person who needed that much training and as someone who is doing that training right now – sometimes taking that time is worth, but sometimes it makes more sense to wait for a more qualified applicant.

          1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

            Plus, they’re having to pay the person doing the training, either as a dedicated position, or someone taking time away from their regular tasks to do it. So it costs money above what the company is paying the untrained person.

        3. Bagpuss*

          No, but an empty position may mean that the person/people covering that empty position are already doing 2 people’s work so don’t have the time or energy to then train someone new on top of that, so leaving the position open may be the least-worst option if you can’t get someone who has the experience needed

          It depends, of course, on the size of the organization and what training would be needed, but if it’s the sort of thing where the training is mostly going to be through having the people who are already doing the job teach you then that it only practical if they have the capacity to do it.

    6. OrangeSage*

      Obviously it depends a lot on the industry/job and how much training would be required. “Extensive” is a scary word. I actually do this to an extent with some of the positions I hire for, and the challenge is really related to turnover. If someone stays in a position on average a year, let’s say, I don’t want to spend 3 to 6 months training if I could hire someone who would be ready to go on their own in a few weeks or a month. If I knew someone was going to stay for 5 years, I would be much more interested in investing in the training up front, but either way, if you’re looking at candidates with experience versus candidates without, it’s preferable to hire someone who can get up and running quickly. I know it’s not fair, and it’s a bit of a catch-22, but that’s the hiring manager perspective.

      1. Spearmint*

        I appreciate the perspective, and I do get why employers might be hesitant to invest in training someone who might leave quickly. At the same time, though, I keep hearing stories of hiring managers struggling to fill positions at all, which I would have thought would change what employers are willing to do.

    7. EMP*

      We don’t have the extra people hours to train a new person from scratch, even if we know it would be possible. I get the sense that most companies run pretty lean these days and are similarly stretched thin for one reason or another. Even when we’re open to someone with minimal experience (say, 1-2 years including internships) that’s what gives us the confidence that they can learn the more advanced or job specific stuff once they get there.

      (not a hiring manager, but involved in hiring on my team)

      1. Fran Fine*

        Ha! I should have read all the way down first before posting, lol. I pretty much said the same thing. We don’t have the bandwidth or people resources to train up someone green in my department, so we had to bypass the candidates who were only bringing “potential” to the table (and it pained us to do so because many of them would have been great culture fits).

    8. Mika*

      My company does. We have a management trainee program, intended for people with little experience. I think our pay and benefits are competitive (as a combo), but we are finding people declining it due to pay. Now, once you are promoted outside of the “trainee” program, pay increases about 25%. But we are having a tough time attracting people. So my answer is there may be an expectation that pay be high, even when the company will be doing the training, which may not make sense.

      1. Zee*

        Well, I’d be a little wary of a company that promises a pay increase after training is completed, given that lots of places promise that and few of them follow through.

    9. CheesePlease*

      as someone who was understaffed in my department but hired an individual based on “potential” – I simply did not have the bandwidth to train them in any dedicated manner and still fulfill all my responsibilities. Granted, it was a smaller company with minimal training resources / structure, and I was very stressed. But they ended up quitting when I took medical leave and they needed to be independently responsible for their role. Not that every situation is the same, but I think that situation is not uncommon

    10. Generic Name*

      We hire new grads with little to no work experience and train them in our field. Our culture is very much promote-from-within.

    11. Decidedly Me*

      I received over 300 applicants to a recent open position – I don’t need to take on someone only with potential.

      Training takes a lot of work even for someone with experience. Starting from scratch takes so much more time and it’s a much larger gamble (even with experience is a gamble). We used to take on people with more varied (indirect) experience in the past and it typically wouldn’t work out, even with potential and training. This can also lead to a morale issue in the team.

      Would we never do it again? I wouldn’t say that, but I won’t do it if I don’t have to. If a role is more unique, then it might even necessitate going with someone that shows potential since exact experience may be hard to find.

      1. Cormorannt*

        Yup. Extensive training is difficult and time-consuming. Who is going to be doing the training? Do I have to pull another employee away from their regular duties? Who covers those duties? How do you know the candidate has potential if they have zero experience? There are plenty of enthusiastic quick learners who still might not be right for the job, or might not like the job, or won’t work out for 100 other reasons.
        Major kudos to companies that have training and development programs, but that’s a big investment and not every company can do it. My company is big on promoting from within, but that comes with some idea of how the employee has performed in the past and their strengths and weaknesses. A total unknown quantity with no experience is a real gamble.

        1. Echo*

          This is a really good point. My partner’s team is struggling to fill open positions because it’s a tiny field and there just aren’t enough people out there with the skillset. I asked him a similar question and he said, “I’m one of the only people senior enough to train new hires. I train *experienced* hires, and it takes 20 hours a week for 4-6 weeks. And any time I’m training, that means I’m not taking work from the queue.”

          He did say that they could probably divide the training more (“senior enough” here means “has a broad enough knowledge base”) but the amount of time is unlikely to budge.

    12. Lora*

      1) Don’t have time or capacity for training. If I need someone who can help me with a project May – September and training would take 6 months, it ain’t happening. I’d rather do without.
      2) “Extensive” is a problem. Right now I have a role open looking for someone with 7-10 years of experience, because that’s someone who can function without a lot of fussing on my part. If they have 5 years experience but need training in something that would be a couple of 2-day seminars to learn – sure, we can do that, I am happy to send someone to a couple of seminar classes which I personally don’t have to teach. If they have 0 years experience and would need several months of training which I personally would have to provide a significant amount of…nope.
      3) define “training”. My boss and grandboss, both PhD holders, made this mistake: they thought a PhD should be able to jump in and do things right off the bat, in a manufacturing / product development role, because PhDs should be go-getter types. In my experience, PhDs are a lot like new grads and often have some mental work to do adapting to industry job culture, plus depending on where they’re coming from they may be even kinda traumatized (harassment, emotional and verbal abuse are a big problem in my field, especially in academia); they need at least a year to figure out how a regular job is supposed to be. They have some training to do but may be resistant to receiving it–some figure they learned all they needed to know ever in grad school or are just tired of learning experiences. So, there’s academic training and then on the job training and then continuing education training and people often say they’re willing to do any or all of those, then find out it’s a bigger time commitment than they wanted, get frustrated with the scope of it, feel like they aren’t getting much out of it, and quit halfway through. There’s a lot of washout, honestly, whether that is in academic training or industry, you can train an incoming group of new hires and a year later maybe 1/3 of them will have decided it’s not for them. If someone is doing that training of their own volition (eg going back to school via a company tuition reimbursement program) that’s one thing, but if their job is contingent on them passing a particular 6 month company-prepaid training program for certification and they can’t stick with it, that’s a different thing.

      When I worked for very big companies with dedicated training departments, it took about 6-12 months before new hires even with previous experience had enough training to be in compliance with regulations, and if they hadn’t previously worked in a highly regulated field before, it was almost guaranteed they would wash out in training. It’s hard to communicate clearly to people the scope of the training and when they found out, they were often frustrated and quit. Think of what it would be like to train people to wear not just masks but steel toe shoes, hair covers, uniforms, shower and brush their teeth a certain way, sign their names and write their handwriting a certain way, and 700+ pages of typewritten instructions to the letter every single day, it’s like Army boot camp (and the people who mostly succeeded were indeed military).

    13. mreasy*

      If people did this I feel like I wouldn’t be surrounded by coworkers with tons of software platform experience but no organizational or communication skills…sigh. My last hire was less qualified on paper than my other finalist, but when she described problem-solving and previous roles, I decided she’d be a better fit, hired her, and she is a fantastic team member. Easy to teach someone a few things they don’t know, impossible (or nearly) to teach someone to e.g., have follow-through.

    14. SnowyRose*

      I think there are a couple of things at play here. First, non-traditional does not mean entry-level. We’ve absolutely hired non-traditional candidates for more junior-level positions and while they may not have extensive work experience and require some training on things specific to our organization, they generally have more of the soft skills or greater professional and personal maturity.

      The second may be a misalignment between what a company views as an entry-level position versus what a candidate thinks is an entry-level. For example, an assistant is entry-level and we understand that these candidates are people we’ll need to make a significant investment in. A coordinator is the next level up and generally the expectation is that the candidates will have a few years of experience. How we view experience and the candidate views it can be very different. We know training and professional development is also needed for this role, but extensive training may not be realistic depending on needs of the project.

      For example, we hired a person who had limited experience but a lot of potential. They’ve been a great hire and it’s worth it, but it’s taken a significant amount of their manager’s time to coach them on their professional development and soft skills. Workload expanded and we hired for a similar role, but focused on hiring someone with more experience. We needed someone who could operate within the parameters of that role but at a higher level. The manager only has so much capacity and still has his own work he’s responsible for. It’s my job to make sure he doesn’t get burnt out or overloaded.

      This is a really long way of saying that sometimes it’s better to wait and hire the right person than it is to hire just anyone to fill a role.

      1. In Wrong Job*

        “an assistant is entry-level and we understand that these candidates are people we’ll need to make a significant investment in.”

        That’s how I’ve understood it. I’ve done entry-level jobs for years. And while I can hit the ground running for the employer, there isn’t a lot in it for me. I’m bored silly at this point. So I’m looking for a different field where someone will take a chance on my potential so I can move up and into other opportunities..

        Some entry-level roles have potential for growth. The ones I have done have not. So while that may temporarily take work off a manager’s plate quicker, the person might leave in a year because they already had the experience beforehand.

        That’s what I’m thinking of doing, though. It must be difficult as a hiring manager. Don’t necessarily want or can invest in someone completely inexperienced, but have to be wary of those overqualified as well.

        Another thing: how long do employers expect an entry-level person to stay? Five years is a long time but sure, you get return on investment. I think people nowadays would have to be extremely content in a role (or it meets some of their needs, even if it’s just paying the rent) to stay there that long.

        1. Fran Fine*

          My manager doesn’t expect entry level employees to stick around long. She’s glad if they stay for up to two years and then moves on; she thinks that’s reasonable (as do I).

        2. SnowyRose*

          See, that’s what we would view as a non-traditional candidate. Maybe they don’t have the background in our field, but maybe they have something else.

          Our assistants usually end up moving up to coordinators. How long they remain is pretty varied. We have some that are willing to put in the work and be bumped up to a senior coordinator or promoted to manager, and we have some that leave after a year or two. (We’re very upfront about the time it takes in a position to be considered a bump to senior level and why.)

    15. Koalafied*

      I’m hiring for a role right now – not entry level but early-mid career. I’m open to hiring someone with a decent background who could be trained, but to be totally candid, I’m probably only going to make that call if I can’t get someone who doesn’t need training to accept an offer. This role is being created to take work off my plate because I’ve been overworked for years. I know it’s going to take at least 3 months for even a super experienced candidate to come up to speed enough that they start saving me time instead of adding to my workload, and the less experienced they are, the longer it’s going to take before I start to actually benefit from their presence. Frankly, I burned out about 18 months ago and have been running on fumes ever since, so I’m placing a huge amount of importance on trying to hire someone who can hit the ground running and bring me relief as quickly as possible.

    16. Managing to get by*

      I’m a hiring manager and am open to any candidate that could do the job. I have hired non-traditional candidates in the past.

      One problem I’ve found with hiring people from another industry who are looking to change industries is that they underestimate how long it will take to get back to the level of pay they had in their prior job where they had experience. We have pretty specialized work and we can’t pay someone at the senior level if they are not able to do senior work, and it will take probably at least 3 years for them to work up to the senior level if switching industries (closer to 5-6 years if they are right out of college). So I’ve had two employees in this situation take a higher paying job back in their prior area of expertise after about a year in the position.

      A problem with hiring people with no job experience, even for an entry level job, is that I end up needing to basically teach them “how to have a job”. What are office norms, why they can’t disappear for 2-3 hours midday, why we need to work standard work hours (we interact with other departments and clients who are not available at 10pm for the night owls), the importance of clocking in and out when you are hourly, how to treat coworkers both in our department and other departments, and my favorite, no I cannot pay you more than someone that has extensive experience and expertise, even if you are really very good at the simpler work you’ve been doing for the last year. Ability to do complex work is worth more money. Doing 25 simple projects per month is not worth more than someone who can work on 4 very complex projects in a month (and guess what, they could do 30-40 pieces of the simpler work in the time it takes you to do 25).

      Sometimes people will leave things like summer restaurant jobs during high school off their resume, so we do ask about that in the interview if they have no work or internship history. We have a clear career path with 5 levels and at least a couple of years of training to move to the next level, and our level 1 is hourly. I want to know entry level analysts can reliably clock in and out, show up on time and be polite to coworkers. I’ve had problems with people who have a degree but no work experience struggling with these simple things. Group projects at school don’t teach these things. and it doesn’t always show up in the interview.

    17. CupcakeCounter*

      A lot of it depends on needs and workload. Frankly, after losing two people in quick succession, I don’t have the time for extensive training. I need someone for a Sr position who has either been at a Sr level somewhere else or had been mid-level for a while and is ready to make the leap and can jump in and figure things out with just some general guidance. Once I get at least one of the roles filled, I might be able to look for that diamond in the rough, but while in triage mode? Nope. I need, and am willing to pay for, someone who can come in and hit the ground running.

    18. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      I did get hired for a job for which I had very minimal experience, but it was over thirty years ago and I don’t know if any place can take those risks now. What got me the interview was a cover letter that sold me in the right way, plus recommendations from two board members who knew of me through family. It took me a while in the not-for-profit world to not feel like that was somehow cheating. But I got through the interview on my own. I was not their first choice, nor even the second; one left after a few days and the other had accepted a different job. So untrained, under-educated ME got the position. What was funny was when I wracked my brain trying to think of ANYTHING relevant to the position to emphasize on my resume, I remembered a long-forgotten university job I’d had twenty years earlier, for the one year I attended before dropping out. As it turned out, nearly all the professional staff at this new place had come through that university, and had worked in that same department for years, as students and for long after. So seeing that on my resume made them think of me as one of them before I was hired. So anything even remotely relevant should go on a resume!

    19. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think the “job market” as a whole is strong, but individual sectors vary. My husband is in restaurants and they literally can’t hire enough people – he has staff just leaving mid shift and he’s at the point where he’s basically hiring anyone with a pulse who shows up to interview. On the other hand, I’m in nonprofits/education and we have a small but robust pool of great candidates for every role I’ve been part of hiring.

    20. Koala dreams*

      The job market is strong, especially compared to the last few years. At the same time, a lot of candidates have been struggling since early in the pandemic and now see a chance to finally get a job. If you hire recent graduates you don’t just have the last year’s graduates apply but also some of the previous year’s. There is a shortage in some industries, but in other industries it’s back to normal, especially for entry level roles.

      That being said, I agree about the training. School can only prepare people so much, some things you have to teach people on the job.

    21. Chauncy Gardener*

      I have ALWAYS hired inexperienced folks for entry level roles. Otherwise, why are they entry level?
      That being said, my son continues to not be able to find a decent job because all the entry level jobs require 3-5 years of experience? What the actual f—?
      And then companies are complaining about their inability to hire. Well, grow your own, for Pete’s sake!
      I posted something like this on LinkedIn once and thought I might have broken the internet….

    22. fhqwhgads*

      In my experience, except in the case of “someone just left we need to replace them”, many employers wait to post a new role until it’s painfully clear they really needed someone in that role, like, 2 months ago. So by the time it’s posted, the people already doing the job are in crunchland and won’t have time to train the new person. They need someone who already knows how to do the job – with minor tweaks for company protocol but not the main substance of the job. You have to have the foresight and budget to hire before you the need the new person if you’re going to train them up.

    23. Fran Fine*

      Not a hiring manager, but I am involved in the hiring process at my company, and certain areas in my company just don’t have the employee bandwidth or headcount to be able to hire someone too green who’ll need a lot of handholding. It sucks because I remember being that entry level person desperately trying to find a job in my field and being passed over for things I know I could have done easily with a little training, but now that I’m on the other side in a very busy comms department with very little downtime, I get it. We just don’t have the time and if we hired someone with little experience, they’d crash and burn quickly – we don’t want to put someone in that situation to fail.

    24. JSPA*

      The person who writes the list may have left last year, and they’re still using the old list. Now more than normally, it may make sense to apply with much less than what’s listed, but a plan for getting the essentials in place quickly.

  15. DreddPirate*

    A bit of humor to lighten everyone’s April Fools’ Day:

    Always include the following when contacting someone who is not familiar with you:
    1. Polite greeting.
    2. Your name.
    3. Relevant personal link between you and the recipient.
    4. Manage expectations.

    For example:
    “Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.”

    8. DreddPirate*

      Excerpted from “Seven Habits of Effective Business Communication and Networking (The Good Parts Version)” by William Goldman

    9. Allornone*

      This comment has been the best part of my day.

      (yes, it’s been a crappy day. thanks for the laugh).

    10. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

      The best kind of mnemonic… Simple straightforward, and humorous so that it’s remembered!
      (And yes I burst out laughing so i had to read this to two other people who also laughed.)

  16. What to ask a CEO?*

    I have the opportunity through my part-time MBA program to be paired with a CEO or other high-level executive for a one-hour discussion. I do not know who I have been paired with yet, but I want to start developing some conversation topics. Do you have any suggestions for questions/topics beyond the super basic ones like “how did you get to where you are”?

    1. irene adler*

      If they have an MBA, maybe ask them what knowledge/class/assignment they had from their MBA education program has served them well in their work life. IOW, what should you be focusing on as you progress through your MBA program.
      What would they do differently in terms of their MBA education?
      Are internships part of your MBA program? IF so, maybe they have suggestions on how to find one that will be worthwhile to you (i.e. most bang for the buck, so to speak).

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        If the meeting goes well, I’d ask if anything hindered their ability to make decisions. I sound like I am joking, but I’ve seriously worked with too many higher level people with degrees who are incapable of making basic decisions without discussing them for months. Sometimes I feel like too much theoretical learning gave them some sort of mental block. If you can word this appropriately, I think it could be a good discussion. The CEO might talk about when they ignore their training and use gut and when their gut feelings were right.

        1. Prospect Gone Bad*

          forgot to clarify, by “anything” I meant in their MBA education in particular

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      In a similar program (except specifically leadership training rather than my MBA program), I got a lot of mileage out of a few specific questions:
      1) What have you learned along your leadership journey that surprised you?
      2) What do you wish someone had told you when you started down this path?
      3) If you could go back and give past-self some new-leader advice, what would it be?

      (2 and 3 sound like two ways of asking the same thing, but I got very different answers every time.)

    3. Lora*

      Gosh, already? I mean the most useful things you can ask, you have to know what company they are CEO of, and what changes the company has been through under their tenure. I would probably ask something about current/recent events, like how do you manage Covid, how are you managing supply chain both from your vendors and as a supplier yourself (almost every company is a supplier of someone, somewhere). If the company is large enough to be international, how has Russian war / global politics affected your business and your choices. Climate change and oil pricing, how does that affect the business and how are you dealing with it.

    4. OnsiteRebootSpecialist*

      “What advice do you wish you had received earlier in your career? ” or “What do you know now that you wish you had known earlier in your career?”

    5. Doctors Whom*

      “What book would you recommend to everyone on your team?”

      This has done very well for me over the years.

    6. cubone*

      1) “Is there anything you would do differently if you could go back to when you were a student?” (if they also did MBA) or “what do you think it’s most important for students in my position to know about [industry/job/business]”?

      2) Tell them a bit about yourself/experience/interests and ask “is there anything you think I could do to round out my experience/skills/knowledge more?” – this has been my go-to for info interviews and it has been by far the most helpful and productive. It’s sort of like asking “what do you think I’m missing?” but in a less blunt way.

    7. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I would ask – how they mentally focus? Organize their time? Does someone do gatekeeping for them?

      I find this to be a huge issue at a regular management level. I’ll have issues in the tech, HR, and business side, and instead of focusing on one, I focus on them all and get nothing done. I am struggling to learn how to tune out noise temporarily and learn what to focus on and I am sure it’s 100X worse for the CEO

      Time management – how do they decide what meetings are worth their time, what do they delegate, what do they do themselves? Do they block meetings or do them at certain times they are less or more alert?

      I’d ask about metrics and how they measure success for various roles. For example, does the CFO need to spot losses, or simply keep the company from getting sued and going under? Does the COO get rewarded if they meet budget? Or are quality metrics more important?

      Trust – since you can’t do it all, do they have tricks for hiring and spotting talent? Do they hire for personality or resume? Have they ever been wrong about someone? How do they mentally handle trust? For example, if someone does a bunch of reports for you, do you just trust that they are all accurate? Have they ever been burned or disappointed by someone they had learned to trust?

  17. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    How are you guys dealing with overwhelm? I see twenty things on my to do list ( all due today, same priority) and just shut down. No I don’t have a secretary to delegate to nor am I able to tell my boss ” Not gonna do my job”

    1. Ella*

      Is there any way you can break those tasks down into smaller tasks, to make them feel less overwhelming?

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        If I broke 20 tasks into 40 that would be even harder. I’m trying to understand how a list of 40 tasks is better than a list of 20.

        1. Ella*

          Personally, I have to write three pages of a literature review for my thesis today. So it’s helpful to break it down into smaller tasks like (1) gather a list of relevant articles (2) request interlibrary loans for any articles I don’t have access to (3) read articles and summarize key points and (4) summarize key points from various articles. That way I don’t have to wonder about how I could even approach this giant task.

          At least it’s helpful for me. I totally understand if that approach doesn’t work for you, but I thought I’d suggest it :)

          1. RabidChild*

            This is helpful to me too–having the ability to cross something off my list is not only satisfying, it helps me see the progress I’ve made when I’m particularly stressed. Also, when I’m really swamped, I put the true priorities (those with the soonest deadline) on a smaller list, like a post-it, and focus on nothing else until they’re done or at least progress has been made. I do a lot of event planning, so learning how to prioritize in this way has helped tremendously.

        2. Camellia*

          The idea is ‘smaller is less overwhelming’, as in, one task on your list might take an hour to do and seem too overwhelming to even start. If you could break that into four tasks, each taking 15 minutes, then you could do one task, take a break, then do the next task, and so forth. This works for some people and not others. And of course, some things can’t be broken into smaller chunks.

        3. jane's nemesis*

          It’s not creating 40 tasks, it’s narrowing the 20 tasks down to 3-4 manageable tasks in order of priority.

          Look at your 20 tasks – which are the most urgent/due the soonest?
          Break the 3 most urgent tasks down into their first 2-3 steps. These should be steps that take a maximum of 10-15 minutes.
          Make a list of those first steps.
          Start at the top, work your way down, feel the sense of accomplishment grow. Build in reward breaks in between steps.
          If you complete all of them, start from the beginning and repeat.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            So it goes
            Document A
            Half 1
            Half 2?
            My executive functioning is weak so like breaking tasks down is hard and I’ll be like * stares at paper for hour*

            1. Peachtree*

              Not necessarily – more like:

              Task 1: write document A
              Task 1.1: review notes for document A
              Task 1.2 outline structure for document A
              Task 1.3 write intro
              Task 1.4 write main body
              Task 1.5 write conclusion

              Does that help?

        4. cubone*

          it’s really common advice for depression, burnout, anxiety, overwhelm etc. The idea isn’t to have LESS or easier tasks, it’s to have tasks that are actually achievable so that we can a) start somewhere and b) build on the motivation of checking something off.

          When I am having a rough time, I literally add things to my to do list like:
          1) turn on computer
          2) open word doc
          3) type title of document
          4) type date
          5) write 3 words

          It sounds like MORE but brains are super wild, complex things and I think of it like driving manual, instead of automatic. I’m struggling to get up a hill, so I have to physically turn off autopilot and process each little tiny individual motion to get my engine warmed up again.

          I also am a big fan of the Eisenhower matrix and regardless of whether you have ADHD or not, I think some of the videos about overwhelm on the YouTube channel “How to ADHD” can be extremely helpful for anyone (as they explain a lot about psychology and motivation, and anyone is allowed to use a tip or tool if it helps them, regardless of if it was designed specifically for them or not)

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            Yea I don’t get the bump of motivation from checking off half a task especially when I know it’s supposed to be complete. I think the Eisenhower matrix might work for bossless jobs but I got ” heres a million meaningless pieces of paperwork! They’re due in an hour”

            1. cubone*

              I mean this is the kindest, generous way possible, but that really sounds like a mindset you have to address if you want to handle the root of the overwhelm. It’s okay if you don’t get a bump of motivation from checking off half a task, but you have to start somewhere and be able to be okay with the smallest “I am getting somewhere, even if it doesn’t feel like much”. The people who aren’t struggling with this aren’t like, just naturally wonderfully motivated and love checking off minor little tasks. They’re just finding SMALL things to do to unravel it piece by piece. The comment from Teapot captures this: “No, they don’t all have the same priority. If they can’t all get done, then somethings not getting done and you boss can and should provide guidance on figuring that out. And also the fact that it’s not all doable needs to be addressed.”

              I used to feel exactly like this and feel like I could’ve written all of your comments here and I had a LOT of arguments with my partner when I was feeling stressed at work about how “EVERYTHING is urgent!! There’s no way to break it down!!!”. To be blunt, nothing changed substantially in my work or motivation levels or to do list. I didn’t suddenly gain incredible bumps of motivation from small tasks. But I still broke them down because well, what else is there? Keep spiralling and staring at a screen, waiting for something to rescue me? It just took a lot of time and accepting that some things would not get done to the level I wanted, some things would not get done at all, and that I couldn’t continue this way and it wasn’t my fault; I didn’t create the conditions that required me to do an unbearable amount of work and all I could do was weigh each day “how can I get some work done without making my anxiety, overwhelm and burnout worse than it already is?”. And if someone had a problem with that and fired me, at least I’d have some semblance of my health hanging on to put towards the next thing.

              1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

                Eh to be honest I get really down when I feel good when I did a lot for me and it doesn’t count because it’s not all complete. That’s hard reality for you.

          2. Mantis Tobaggan, MD*

            On days I’m really overwhelmed this is literally what I have to do. Sometimes I have such a block about a task as simple as writing an email, so I’ll break it down into “draft email to Karen” and “send email to Karen.” It’s a relief to know I’m not the only one bc it can feel like I’m the only one struggling just to function like a normal human

        5. Prospect Gone Bad*

          OK we are in the same boat, which is why I am on AAM instead:-/. You need to pick let’s say 2 a day and tell your boss (or whoever) you literally can’t do all 20. I’ve looked back at my performance and realized that when I try to do 10 a day, I get about 0 done.

        6. Haha Lala*

          Having a list of 40 things with 10 crossed off feels much better than a list of 20 things with nothing crossed off.

          The smaller the hurdle each task is, the easier it is to cross off the few and get on a roll of productivity.
          I have the same issue with getting overwhelmed if my to do list is too big, but when you can start chipping away at the small bits it gets more manageable.

    2. AdequateArchaeologist*

      I think it depends. Do the people asking for your qualifications actually care, or are they just making noise? Will sharing your credentials and such make a difference on how the policy is received, or will it just make you more of a ta

      1. AdequateArchaeologist*

        Whoops. Early submit.

        Will it just make you a target they can take their frustrations out on?

    3. Spearmint*

      I have this problem sometimes too. Are there any items on the list that you find more interesting or pleasant to do than the others? Getting started is the real hurdle, and it’s easier to get started on something that is more appealing to work on.

      1. irene adler*

        Yeah-start with a task that you like.
        Can the boss give you a way to prioritize?
        I have the ‘all tasks are priority 1’ kind of job. But I have to attend first to those tasks that get product out the door. Cuz, at my work, product = pay check. Everyone understands this; so any task that gets delayed because of this won’t put up much fuss.

    4. Guava*

      I’ve used Eisenhower’s Urgent/Important Principle. It’s an easy matrix and helps you delegate what is important/urgent (do), important/not urgent (schedule), not important/ urgent (delegate, or if you are unable to do so which you mention in your comment, schedule for later), and not import/not urgent (delete/eliminate – which if you have a job like mine may not be an option so I just leave these at the very bottom of my list)

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I put the same priority to cut off this comment. All the paperwork is DUE NOW and IMPORTANT

        1. cubone*

          then this is the core problem. There is a great saying for this: “If everything is important, nothing is important”. You have to make some choices about what can be sacrificed or not.

          If it’s your job (and you’re not say, a student or freelancer) that has set it up this way, then it is a bad job that is not setting people up to succeed (or something else is going on, eg. your supervisor needs to help you prioritize or help you gain more skills to make tasks easier).

          If you only had to pick ONE task, which one would it be? That’s the most important. If you can’t pick because everyone is equally important, the issue ISN’T “too much work” – it’s work that isn’t appropriately weighted, scheduled, or prioritized.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            Yea it all kinda blurs together if it’s paperwork.m because why is form 3a more important than form 5c? If I have 10 form 3as each taking 30 minutes which one is important?

      2. ecnaseener*

        Yes, you need a matrix or some other sort of prioritizing tool. I have one with a little more granularity than urgent/important, a total of 16 boxes, which sounds intimidating but is actually a godsend because it gives me an ordered list. I don’t have to do any picking and choosing which task to do next, I just do the next one on the list.

    5. AdequateArchaeologist*

      Please ignore my multiple fails at nesting.

      Short term solution: pick something at random and just do it. Maybe it’s the shortest task, maybe it’s the task you enjoy the most, whatever. Rinse and repeat.

      Long term: talk with your supervisor about the unreasonable workload. Find out if everything really is too priority or if some things can slide. And take time to really try to relax and do something to de-stress when you’re off work (which, easier said than done).

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Yea just pick something and plug away. My poor boss is suffering because I got sick and the others are new and we didn’t do our paperwork.

      2. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        I always pick the thing that I can get done the quickest.

    6. Austistic and Anxious: The Biography*

      I usually start by writing them all out on a piece of paper- for some reason it’s better than on a screen.

      Then I group them by task area. If there are any component parts I’ll write them underneath.

      Then I’ll highlight/circle/decide by priority within the task area. If they’re all the same priority, I’ll then pick one or two I know are short/easy and do those. If you have a bunch of same first-step constituent parts, like “Send email to X to inquire as to status of Y,” Doing all of those for 5 items and then doing the next step for all those 5 items sometimes works well (like writing the first letter fifty times of a word, and then the second, feels faster than writing the word fifty times).

      If none stand out, and they really are all the same priority, I pretend the rest of the list doesn’t exist (sometimes I’ll cover it with a post-it note to trick my brain) and just do the very first one. Then I cross it off, enjoy the small dopamine rush, and move to the next one.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Oh. Post its. I forgot those. I always write my list in my work journal but never use other stationary. Maybe I could intersperse hard ones with easy ones?

    7. I'm A Little Teapot*

      If the 20 things are doable, you’re just shutting down, then that’s a you problem. Whether its anxiety or not, look into the techniques for managing anxiety and see if anything helps. A 2 minute breathing exercise that fixes your head is worth the 2 minutes.

      If it’s not doable, then that’s a boss problem. The key word you’re looking for is prioritization. No, they don’t all have the same priority. If they can’t all get done, then somethings not getting done and you boss can and should provide guidance on figuring that out. And also the fact that it’s not all doable needs to be addressed.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        They aren’t doable for me, no, but thats America under capitalism. I used to have more capacity but by doing more than I could I burnt out. My boss did mention that my coworkers also didn’t do their paperwork tbh.

    8. A Simple Narwhal*

      You don’t have to tell your boss “not gonna do my job”, you can ask your boss for assistance in prioritizing the list and letting them know what is reasonable to be accomplished in one day. So for starters – what is doable to get done today? And not in a “if I skip lunch and work until midnight” day, a normal day.

      If you can get through everything today, and it’s just overwhelming to see such a long list, then pick one item (it can be at random, it can be the most fun thing, it can be the quickest – it doesn’t matter, just grab one), and start with that. When you’re working on that item, forget about the list, it doesn’t matter, you’re focusing on the task in front of you. Once it’s done, cross it off, and pick the next item. Rinse and repeat!

      If you won’t be able to get through everything in one day, figure out what you can do. Then go to your boss for approval and to set expectations. Or to get their assistance on what needs to get done first. Something like “I have items A through T to get done today, but I only have time to get through item N. This is the order I plan on doing them in, does that sound good?” Or if you aren’t that sure, it can be something vaguer: “I have items A through T to get done today, and it’s not possible to get to all of them. Which of these items needs to be prioritized and what order should they be done in?” If they’re not terrible they’ll help you figure out your day and push back on what can’t be done. If they are terrible and their only response is “well it needs to get done”, keep pushing back and stick to the facts “It’s not possible for just myself to get it done, here is what I’m planning to do. If you can offer prioritization I will focus on those items, but until then this is what I’m doing today.” And anyone who is waiting on your work can be directed to your boss – “It is not in my priorities for today, please talk to [boss] if it needs to be prioritized.” And then if your boss comes back and says to work on that, then tell them “sure, but that means X won’t get done”, rinse and repeat. Make sure the problem is getting firmly placed on your boss’s lap – if you have too much work it’s not your problem to solve.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Sensible although I always overshoot. I remember that one day when I felt physically good, took my meds and the stars aligned, on a day where I have a migrane, my ADHD is acting up and the children are on fire ( I put them out first do not worry)

    9. Echo*

      Block off your calendar/make a schedule for yourself, e.g. 9-9:30 AM Task A, 9:30-10 AM Task B, 10-11 AM Slightly Longer Task C, and so on. During your Task A block you are ONLY going to look at, think about, or work on Task A. Turn off your email and Slack/IM notifications if possible. If you finish Task A in only 20 minutes, take a break instead of moving directly on to Task B.

      And good luck–weekend’s almost here, and you’ve got this!

    10. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      Sometimes I use a little whiteboard as a sort of focus assistance to tell my brain “okay, this is the next thing”. It’s quite good for the situation you describe, where my brain might otherwise go “toooo many things at once, cannot deal!”

      I would pick the thing I’m doing next, and write only that one thing on the whiteboard. Then I try to set aside the thought of the other things – a bit like “Autistic and Anxious” said above, pretending the rest of the list doesn’t exist.

      If you’re in a situation where you have to care what things look like to other people, there might be ways to accomplish the same mental switch which are a bit less visible, e.g. a post-it on the edge of your screen, or (for me this wouldn’t be as good, I think), a way to annotate or fold or highlight the original list. The essence of it is to signal to myself “THIS thing next, any worries about all the other things can wait till later”.

    11. Generic Name*

      Are they REALLY all the same priority? Can you schedule a 15 minute meeting with your boss or someone in management and ask them what HAS to get done today (we will be fined by a regulatory agency, someone will die, etc.) and what can get done Monday/later.

      1. Overwhelm*

        To all the people saying to ask your boss to help you prioritize, what do you do when you have multiple bosses that all ask you to do things and believe their task is more important than all other tasks?

        1. Philosophia*

          I’ve used a variant on Generic Name’s method and asked for details on the reason for what you assume is the urgency. (You’ll have to pretend that the reason their task is more important than all other tasks is urgency rather than egotism.) Enlist them all in assisting you to prioritize. Find out whether it’s that someone down the line can’t do Y until you’ve done X, and they need to get Y done by the end of the week or Z can’t happen, or rather that, “Well, I did tell so-and-so I’d have this to her today, but come to think of it, she’s going to be in meetings the rest of the day anyway and won’t have time to read it, so tomorrow is fine.” Set an example of earnest helpfulness. It may rub off.

    12. aubrey*

      Tbh if I have multiple things that are all the same priority, I do them in order received or alphabetical order until either I’m done or a priority order becomes clear. Is that ideal? Probably not. But usually it gets me started on a task and past the “omg which to choose, how to prioritize, panic” stuckness.

    13. Anonymous Hippo*

      If all due today, all same priority, start with the easiest/fastest. See if you can knock a couple out real quick and help jump start your motivation.

    14. Living That Teacher Life*

      When I have a giant list of things to do, I accomplish the most by staying focused on one until it’s done and then moving on to the next, rather than trying to multi-task. If I get to a place where I have to wait for more information or someone else’s action, then I will switch to something else while I wait. It’s good to start with a few quick and easy tasks, or alternate the easier ones with the more complex ones. If there are several things you need to do that are realistically going to take an hour or more, then you may need to talk to your boss about how she would like you to prioritize. If you think your boss will be resistant, you can jot down on your to-do list how long it takes you to do each task for about half a day. Then go to your boss with that data to show that it’s literally not possible to get everything done by the end of the day.

    15. Koalafied*

      Honestly – considering looking for a therapist who specializes in, or even reading a book about, executive dysfunction. Everyone gets overwhelmed, but that “I just shut down” response to being overwhelmed, especially if that’s your typical/most common response to being overwhelmed, is a hallmark of someone struggling with executive brain functions, and the strategies that help other people stay organized often don’t help us at all (I’m one of the kin). There is a whole field of psychology/psychiatry that has looked into the things we need that are different from what other people need in order to stay focused/organized/productive.

      I could write a novel in the comments here but in my own experience, what made a huge difference was a deep dive into understanding exactly what executive dysfunction is and how it works… it was like being given the operator’s manual to my brain that I never knew existed, and now when I hit roadblocks that make me shut down, at the very least now I know why I’m shutting down and what I need to remedy the issue. Which isn’t to say I can always successfully intervene on myself, but I’m infinitely more capable of it now than I was before I had ever heard the term “executive dysfunction.”

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Well I’ll look around on the net. I’m glad there’s more stuff out there for different brains.

    16. Mouse*

      People have mentioned picking at random, but, to expand on that…if nothing is obviously more urgent or more important, literally rolling dice or pulling up a random number generator can remove the mental load of trying to decide or prioritize, so that *something* at least gets done instead of spiraling.

    17. Eyes Kiwami*

      Here is how I deal with overwhelm:

      -set a pomodoro work timer for something ridiculously short, like 5 min. If you actually work for 5 min, you did it! Reward yourself. Take your break and start again.

      -If you don’t even know where to start, change your goals/tasks from “complete X” to “spend # minutes trying to figure out X”.

      -use little candies like M&Ms and place one at each stage of a page/next to something that symbolizes the task. Each time you reach a stage of the task you get to eat a candy (for example one per page or half page).

      -put on fast pace music that makes you want to move or feels cathartic, like dance, punk, metal… turn up the volume on your headphones until you can’t hear your own thoughts.

      -drink caffeine

      -look outside at something far away for a break, get fresh air if you can. I like to listen to podcasts about ancient history or astronomy, something about the immense time scale gives a sense of perspective. If nothing we do today matters, then we might as well do whatever makes us feel satisfied.

  19. Betty Suarez*

    I left a job 2 weeks ago, left on very good terms; during my exit interview I asked if I could keep the laptop they sent me (~3 years ago) and told them I’m willing to pay for it. During the exit interview they told me not to worry about it but they had to check with the director, and if I don’t get instructions from them about sending it back then it’s mine.

    Because I’m weird, now I’m overthinking this. I haven’t seen anything about sending it back, the director texted me since then but it was just a nice “we’ll miss you don’t be a stranger!” text. Do you think this has the potential to be an issue? Like, 6 months from now can they decide I need to send it back?

    1. Sick Leave Drama*

      This … does seem a little odd to me. I think I would want this loop closed in writing. Maybe it’s a new norm in the work from home era.

    2. AnonAnon*

      Yes, I think it has the potential to be an issue. Too many open communication loops.
      Is there any reason for not contacting the exit interviewer or the director to confirm?
      Personally, I would never ask to keep a work laptop, but that’s just me.

      1. Koalafied*

        It’s fairly common in the nonprofit world where staff, especially the younger/junior ones, likely aren’t making enough to really be able to justify buying a whole personal laptop when they can get by reasonably well enough with a personal smartphone and a company laptop. Buying an older (3+ years) laptop from your org when you leave, at a price equal to its depreciated value on the financial, is usually significantly cheaper than buying a new one. And if the laptop is already 3+ years old, the org is getting near the point where they’re going to have to replace it anyway in the next couple of years, and normally they would get $0 out of the old machine – being able to sell it to a departing employee will actually help subsidize the replacement machine.

    3. Esmeralda*

      Sure, check back with them once now.

      If they come back to you in 6 months wanting it back, just…give it back. You’ll have had 6 months of using it, so you’re ahead there.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      I would definitely try to get something in writing (email), especially since folks in exit interviews / management often don’t understand rules about software license transfers and the like. At minimum, could you send something along the lines of ‘per our verbal conversation at the exit interview, it was stated that i can keep the laptop unless i heard otherwise. Since i have not heard otherwise, i am taking that to mean that ownership has been transferred to me. if that is not the case, please contact me asap.’

      1. Betty Suarez*

        Thanks for the script! Reading the responses makes it seem pretty duh that I should just shoot them an email.

        1. MJ*

          Also, be aware that depending on their IT setup, they may still have access to anything on the laptop – including your personal files. And may delete software since their company licenses probably won’t cover non-employees.

          If I was going to keep a company laptop, I would want a written transfer of ownership and then would reformat and reinstall personal copies of any software I wanted to use.

          1. MJ*

            Oh, if you don’t reformat and reinstall, make sure you delete ALL company data / files.

    5. rage criers unite*

      I would absolutely get in writing that you can keep it.

      something like “I haven’t heard anything, so I just want confirmation that the Laptop provided to me will not need to be returned” or something similar.

    6. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Yeah you feel weird about this because you know there is a chance they want it back. Any company with a good data security plan would want it. You need to contact them and ask about this.

    7. ArtK*

      I’ve been able to keep hardware after leaving in a couple of cases. In both situations the hardware was old enough that it really wasn’t worth the company’s time to take it back. I did get written confirmation that the item was now mine, though.

    8. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      No, doubt they will even remember it. Especially since it’s 3 months old. Have you removed any work-related applications? Otherwise sounds like it’s yours!

  20. Ella*

    Hi, everyone – hope your Friday is going well!

    I have a question about being ghosted before an interview. I’m a student interviewing for a fellowship hosted by my university, and I received an email last Friday asking me to submit my availability for Apr. 6-8. And I haven’t heard from them since. One of my professors was actually asked to sit on the interviewing committee this year (but he doesn’t choose who gets interviewed nor does he make any final decisions), and when I mentioned this to him last Tuesday, he said that they usually interview around 30 people for 10 spots, so it might take some time to schedule interviews.

    But it has been a while, and I really want to send a follow-up email to the person who originally reached out for my availability – is this a bad idea? I’ve never had a hiring manager take longer than one business day to confirm an interview, but I guess academia might be different. Does anyone have any similiar experiences or any advice? I’m a little paranoid that somehow they never received the email with my availability, or it got lost in their junk folder or something (although I’ve checked my sent folder a million times, and it’s definitely there).

    1. wildcat*

      I would follow up since today is the 1st and you’d need to block off time in your schedule.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I know it feels like it’s been a long time, but I assure you that a week is not a long time on their end, academia or otherwise. If you want to follow up, you can do that, but I would wait until Monday unless your availability has changed.

      1. After 33 years ...*

        Both Wildcat and ALB are correct: following up with the scheduler (by Monday) should be fine, but in the academic universe, time can become flexible. Often, scheduling the interviewers is more difficult than scheduling the candidates.

        1. Ella*

          And while I was drafting a follow-up email just now, I got my assigned time! But thank you all for your advice anyway; I really appreciate it.

    3. Gracely*

      I’d probably wait until Monday–odds are they’ll send it out today if they sent the requests last Friday. I’d guess that Friday is probably the day that person has the most time for admin-type stuff, since professors are generally stuck to a class/office hours schedule.

      Academia is slow, but also, a week is nothing in terms of wait time normally (it’s a little different in this case, since 6-8 is next week).

  21. Guava*

    Return to work office wear – are there any Instagram pages or blogs those of you in your 30s in the semi-casual or corporate world have found helpful?

    I really like @leevosburgh and @theminimalistwardrobe, but they’re too casual for work.

    1. Sincerely Raymond Holt*

      If you are on Pinterest, do a search for “preppy work” or “casual work” or whatever your style is. You’ll start getting images pop up in your feed for your style.

    2. Delighting in daffodils*

      I’ve enjoyed the blog Capitol Hill Style (caphillstyle dot com)! She used to work in DC and then returned west and became an attorney. What I most appreciate is that she’s realistic about office dress codes in a way that many non office worker bloggers aren’t! (Aka you can’t wear a shorts suit to most offices, no matter how on trend they are.)

    4. Workerbee*

      bridgetteraes.com has wardrobe categories, work wardrobe capsules, and a blog. She shares her consultations with clients as well.

      I don’t know if she’s stylin’ for a specific age group, but then my own attire hasn’t really changed from 30s to 40s. I just (try to) pick what I think looks good and is comfortable.

  22. Average Bureaucrat*

    I’m curious to get people’s feedback on a concern I have-
    I work for a gov agency that publishes sometimes controversial policies (usually affecting other agencies). In the past, members of the public have submitted letters asking for the credentials of the policy authors or submitted FOIA requests for resumes.
    I am going to be the signatory on a potentially controversial policy in the next year or 2, and I’m wondering if I should update my LinkedIn/make it more public to head off questions about whether I am qualified to evaluate the topic I will be publishing policy on. On the other hand, maybe it’s better to be as unsearchable as possible?
    Does anyone have experience with this kind of thing, or have any advice?

    1. Anothergovtemployee*

      Also in a government agency, 2 -3 years ago some people at another branch got death threats at thier homes:

      I was pretty locked down on social media anyways, but made sure to delete any references to my employer off there and change to a fake name, and remove pictures (I have an animated picture people who know me would recognize, but I don’t think could be matched)

      I also updated my addresses in the work system to be my work address (co-worker’s who have been over know where I live, but I don’t think it remains in any of the state systems.) I know they’re supposed to redact those, but why take the chance?

      This might be a little more paranoid than you’re looking for, but I’m in the “why take the chance” camp

      1. Average Bureaucrat*

        My face and name are out there already, in an un-scrubable way, so that ship has sailed. :)

    2. t-vex*

      I have zero experience with this so take my opinion for what it’s worth, but it seems to me that if you make yourself hard to find people will assume you have something to hide. If you make yourself findable and show that you’re experienced but otherwise uninteresting nobody will care.

    3. Doctors Whom*

      I work in a govt-adjacent arena and honestly it kills me when I get a policy letter signed by someone and I can’t find an official bio or a Linkedin profile. I’m not hunting creds, per se, but I am hunting background to give me context about the person’s perspective.

      If you’re going to be authoring policy documents for public consumption, you absolutely should have some kind of public bio. People who do this work should not be a mystery to the public that is affected by the policies, whatever they are. Establishing a public bio will reduce stuff like the requests you mention.

      You don’t have to be active on LinkedIn or connect with anyone if you don’t want.

      1. Average Bureaucrat*

        That’s my feeling too- if a LinkedIn profile with my basic experience and education can head off some of the more extreme reactions, then it would be worth it. A lot of this is just people not liking a decision, grasping at straws to explain why the government is going to do something that doesn’t fit into their worldview, and deciding that the person behind the decision has no idea what they’re doing.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      Also in gov in a sometimes unpopular sector – we were told at orientation to lock down all social media, including LinkedIn. I think this is only good advice if you intend to stay with gov for the rest of your career. Otherwise, I would keep proprietary info off LinkedIn and maybe post/comment carefully, but otherwise keep a normal social media presence.

      1. Average Bureaucrat*

        Hah, my agency is generally not exciting enough to warrant any kind of blanket warnings about social media! We’ve just happened to get caught in the crossfire of bigger political fights which have raised the public profile of what we do, and directed people with axes to grind (both sides of the political spectrum) to our policy products.

    5. New Bureaucrat*

      Not quite the same thing, but I worked on a public procurement that in our niche field and one of the folks who didn’t get it protested the loss through official channels. One of the ways they challenged the decision was by suggesting we weren’t qualified to decide and we had to provide our credentials as part of the formal process.

      My name is listed as a matter of public record and they could easily have cross referenced my credentials through social media.

      So I’m not really convinced you can head off these questions in advance. I get the sense that even if they can just look it up, they want it in writing from the agency as an official response.

    6. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      If it’s the type of publication that might be used by academics, or other types of researchers, any citation would become problematic if you and your credentials can’t be verified.

  23. AdequateArchaeologist*

    I’m planning on asking for a raise, but im pretty nervous about it. I’m currently being underpaid by about $5-7k. I compared my salary to our federal counterparts (who are generally lower paid), other companies flying jobs similar to mine, and my coworkers pay and these are the numbers I came up with. Additionally I have a master’s degree which is considered the defining requirement for a full time position (archaeology is a weird field). I’m a little light on field experience but I have a ton of experience on the back end/report writing side, which us where people who excel in field work typically struggle.

    Every time I share my salary with my coworkers, they are appalled. I’m being paid the same as a recently promoted field tech who has less field experience, doesn’t do report writing, and no masters degree. The caveat to all of this is I’ve only been here about 4 months. And while I’m doing ok at my job, I’m not a rockstar. I make about $39k, so the raise I want is a 15-20% increase. But that’s also just to get me to market value. So I’m struggling with seeming out of touch, while also getting what my labor is worth. Any suggestions on how to handle this?

    1. Sick Leave Drama*

      Shoot, four months is really early. I wish you’d had this information when you negotiated the offer! Can you ask for a six month review and potentially make this part of that discussion? Ideally you would set yourself up to receive a raise at one year that completely compensates you for the money you missed out on. I think if your position has changed a lot that’s another opportunity.

      1. After 33 years ...*

        +1 Yes, consider taking a slightly longer term view. Do these reports have the potential to turn into publications / greater recognition / avenues towards higher profile investigations? As you say, writing reports is not something all archeaologists enjoy, but if you keep producing work, that should help over a little time.
        Good luck!

        1. AdequateArchaeologist*

          I’m in private cultural resource management, so while the reports are technically published it’s not the same as in an academic setting. They basically get sent to our state historical office to sit unless the project area is subject to another project. Not really any recognition from it unless we really screw something up.

          I might eventually be able to lead projects but it’s going to be several years in the future.

      2. AdequateArchaeologist*

        Yeah, the offer seemed to be a take it or leave it and I was desperate to get a job in my field, and it was more than I was making at the time so… definitely shot myself in the foot

        My coworker did a 90 review that was basically pointless in terms of feedback (the only feedback: “you have a great attitude!”), but she said it seemed like they were anticipating her asking for a raise. Which I thought y was weird. (As a side note she makes $5k more than me for the same position.)

      3. Doctors Whom*

        I concur. At four months in the response to this is most likely “the time to have this conversation was when you were negotiating the offer, why is the job suddenly worth 20% more? than it was 4 months ago?” Your boss won’t be able to make that case I don’t think. I know I wouldn’t be able to as a manager if someone approached me like this.

        Turn in a solid performance, and seek opportunities to make your strengths shine. Then talk about market and performance at your annual review.

        1. Camelid coordinator*

          I agree that the timing is not in your favor and that the one-year review (or whenever annual reviews take place in your organization) might be the best time to bring this up. You’ll have more of a record of accomplishment then, too, and can point to areas of the job where you are a rockstar. The part where you describe your performance as ok also makes me think now isn’t a great time to ask for a significant increase, even if it is just a market adjustment.

          1. AdequateArchaeologist*

            The performance part is bogging me down too. I got thrown into admin-ing a massive project with minimal assistance/training and I honestly feel like “I haven’t drowned yet” is an accomplishment. But I’ve been killing it at the report side of things.

      4. Prospect Gone Bad*

        I’m also concerned about the “not a rockstar.” New and not great (yet) is not a good combination. I would work on the becoming better part first.

      1. AdequateArchaeologist*

        My boss and I are both women, as is my coworker who was hired at the same time, for the same position and makes about $5k more. Everyone involved is white, very similar backgrounds, etc. so I don’t think demographics are playing into it.

    3. Can't think of a funny name*

      At only 4 months, I’d think that’s not enough time to have proven that you should be paid more. If your boss doesn’t decide pay, she’s going to have to explain to someone above her to support why you should get more and I would be surprised if she wants to use capital up for that. Are you willing to leave over it? If so, start interviewing and maybe leave this job off the resume.

      1. AdequateArchaeologist*

        She decided my pay. I basically report to our division director so she has total control over salary.

        I’m on the fence on if I’m willing to leave. I could go back to tech-ing and make more, but lose the stability. And, most irritating, my offer letter says I have to pay back my $1500 moving bonus (which I can’t afford to do comfortably) if I leave before 1 year is up.

        1. ArchAeologist*

          Fellow archaeologist here – CRM is a weird field. I would be hesitant to go back to being a shovel bum if you do have a permanent gig, especially with the moving bonus payback in play. It always seems great at the start of the field season but the closer I get to when snow flies the more stressed I get.

          If you are that far underpaid for your position, it might be possible to bring it up after 6 months if you are working for a smaller company. If you are part of a CRM wing of a larger engineering or design firm you may be stuck in their corporate review/promotion timeline. If you do decide to go for it at 6 months I would spend the next 2 months collecting data on your coworkers salaries and relative experience as well as from regional postings on Shovelbums and ArchaeoFieldwork. If you have contacts in similar positions at other firms in your immediate region that might help too. However if they shut that down unless you have a 1 year review or something you may be stuck.

          I am not sure where in the country you are or if you are fully SoI qualified (or if that is the experience bit you are working on), but I am seeing a lot of posts for Project Director and Crew Chief level positions in the West. There are a lot of folks who are pretty desperate for people with SoI quals who can run crews during field season and write the reports during the winter. It may be possible to keep doing your position for now and really look into those companies and see if whatever they would pay you would cancel out the loss of the $1500.

          1. AdequateArchaeologist*

            Oh yay! Another archaeologist who understands the weirdness of CRM! I’m in the west actually, and SoI qualified (which is part of my gripe over pay). My experience has been several long projects rather than multiple short projects, so I don’t have as much variety.

            I’m working for a large-ish firm and actually applied to one of those crew lead/report writing jobs and got it. I have a weird background with lots of admin work so they put me on the admin/report/data management portion of our massive project because they were struggling with keeping up. I assume they’ll have me do field work soon-ish? At least once the monster report is out the door.

            I’ve looked a little at other jobs in the area, but 2 of the major companies are…not great.

    4. Fedgirl*

      I can tell you the feds are definitely hiring right now, and with a master’s you qualify for at least a GS9 (as you likely know). Get out there and job hunt! We definitely need people with grant writing/review background. (I agree it is really too early to ask for a raise unless you have another offer in hand.)

      1. AdequateArchaeologist*

        I’ve been looking at some fed jobs, and that was part of how I figured out how underpaid I am. (I looked at pay scale and I’m currently sitting at a high 5/low 7. Ouch). There’s a position coming up at an agency where a grad school-mate of mine works and I’m seriously considering it.

        I don’t have any grant writing experience (our grad program was a weird experience that includes almost 0 grant applications or funding), but I’ve gotten really good feedback on my reports and technical editing. Do you think that would translate well to the grant writing portion?

  24. BusyBee*

    Wanted to hear the commentariat’s advice on something. I’m fairly new to my job, approaching one year. I really like my boss and we work well together, and I often work closely with her boss. Her boss is a smart person, but extremely reactive.

    For instance, we’ll have a project underway to refresh content on a group of produce pages. As we’re working through the project plan, which might be a three month project involving an agency, she’ll decide to create an interim fix. She will start writing copy herself, getting images together, and basically running a not-as-detailed, not-as-good, quick fix project off to the side.

    It’s surprising to me to see a person of her seniority tackling such tactical projects, and she doesn’t fully inform the team, so we’re all getting emails and requests that are confusing, especially considering we are running a whole project to address this very issue.

    I understand sometimes that we have to put a quick fix in place now and again, but this is happening over and over. It’s a bit frustrating for me, since I’m never sure what the expectations are, or how it relates to the larger strategic projects I’m running.

    Any advice, friends? I’m just not sure how to manage this one: my boss doesn’t push back much, though I get the feeling it’s also distracting for her. I can live with it, but if there’s something I can do to prevent these weird fire drills, I want to try it.

    1. Mouse*

      Would it help to just embrace it? Assume that when you’re working on a project, she’s going to want a quick-fix interim solution and incorporate that into your project plan. That will hopefully reduce the chaotic feeling (and might make your grand-boss really like you, too!).

      1. Reb*

        Yep, I was coming to say that too. Early in the project, meet with boss and grand-boss and ask if the client needs an interim solution, and then make that part of the project.

    2. Ashley*

      If you get a chance for facetime with senior person, I would flat out ask and make it clear you are asking because you want to know if there is something you can do to improve make things flow better.

  25. Jen*

    I have worked at my organization (public sector—keep this in mind) for 6 years, and been in my current position for 4. Since stepping into my current role, I have always received excellent evaluations and am well respected by all of my peers and superiors. I have even been formally recognized in my area of the organization for my performance within the past year. I have also taken on increased responsibilities over time, and my proficiency has increased.

    The only pay increase I have received in these 4 years was a 2% COLA. The first 2 years, it was accepted that if you do good work, you’ll get a modest (again, public sector) raise every few years. I never reached that point because we hid COVID, and budgets shrank overnight. Although not many people received raises during the past 2 years of COVID, several still did, and they were all at executive director levels or above (I am not at that level). Very recently, however, we were told not to expect any raises or COLAs for the next several years moving forward. Luckily, though, we have experienced no layoffs during this time, and none are expected.

    I love working at my organization, and really want to stay, but this news has me down. I don’t want to settle for low pay to the point that my future earnings are compromised or I can’t achieve my goals in life (like buying a house). Things I love about the job: I like the work I do, have some autonomy, and have built up a great portfolio; good benefits and time off; the culture is good and it’s a healthy environment; I get along with everyone I work with really well and enjoy their company and being part of the team; good work/life balance.

    The type of work I do lends itself to freelance really well. I already do some freelance, and am actively trying to get more clients, especially bigger projects that pay well. If I were able to turn that into my full time job, I would love that, but currently I don’t bring in enough income to do so. On the other hand, leaving my job to work for a different organization that could be more demanding of my personal time or have other downfalls for an increase in pay feels potentially risky (or maybe it would be great).

    If you were me, what would you do? My coworkers have normalized not getting raises to the point that I now feel like I’m being really ungrateful when I think about this making me unhappy. I need an outside perspective. What is a reasonable expectation?

    1. Can't think of a funny name*

      I am not in the public sector so maybe this is different but our raises were not great last year either so I started looking around and found I was paid under market. I like my job, people, work/life etc (like you said) but I can’t justify to myself being paid so far under market so I am going about this 2-ways…I started interviewing and I asked my boss for a market adjustment. He said I will get one but hasn’t told me the details yet (still working thru approvals…it’s only been about 2 weeks). So if the market adjustment is good, I’ll stop interviewing, otherwise I’ll continue with that…not committing to taking another job but leaving the option open.

    2. Gracely*

      I think it boils down to what you want: the low-paying stability of your public sector job with the knowledge that it isn’t getting better for several years, or the slightly riskier move to somewhere that pays what you’re worth.

      If I were in your position, I would start looking for a better paying job, and just be picky.

      And I say this as someone who also works in the public sector, and has gotten used to the idea that pay raises generally aren’t a thing aside from the once-every-few-years 1% “merit” raise that, given the way my institution implements it, is really just COLA by another name. I know I’m underpaid, but I enjoy the work I do, and more importantly, for me it’s a 2nd income that my spouse and I use to pad our savings and pay for overseas travel. If I needed this income to live, I’d have definitely found a different job years ago.

    3. Henry Division*

      I would take a moment to evaluate what you want in your life and career and if this job is really doing anything for you on that front. It sounds like it isn’t. So you have to make the decision to take the plunge and take a risk if you want that to change, or not.

      The least risky thing you could do is start looking for a new job. It costs you a little time and energy, but in time, you can probably find what you’re looking for at better pay. It is hard to say what a job’s culture and work/life balance will actually be like until you take the job . . .but again, that’s a risk you’re going to have to take.

      It also sounds like freelance full-time might become an option for you in the future. You could focus on that and really work on getting clients so that it is a viable source of income. Some people really like freelance, but also keep in mind some of the caveats of freelance vs a salaried job – it’s often harder to keep a work/life balance, and if you’re in the USA, health insurance is a concern. But it really works for some folks.

      You can also try once again to ask about a raise. I do want to point out that in the USA, COLA this year should be a 5.9% adjustment because of massive inflation.

      Good luck! This isn’t an easy decision, and it can be really hard when a job you love doesn’t love you back.

      1. Jen*

        Thank you for your advice! I think I really needed to hear all of this. And yes, a true COLA would be very high. 2% in 4 years doesn’t begin to cover it.

    4. Koalafied*

      Although not many people received raises during the past 2 years of COVID, several still did, and they were all at executive director levels or above (I am not at that level).

      This organization is telling you something about them and it’s not something good. When funds are tight, they should be prioritizing the lowest paid staff for increases, not the highest paid ones. In 2020 because of limited budget my org gave something like (may not be exact numbers) 5% to people making under $50k, 4% to $50-75K, 3% to $75-100K, 2% for $100-150K, and everyone making $150K or more was not eligible for an increase.

      1. Jen*

        Yes, I agree with you. I was really put off by this decision to give raises to people already making a lot. It has given me a lot to think about.

        I make $40k. We do have a low cost of living here, slightly below the national average. But with inflation, it’s seeming like less and less. Average home price went from $150k to $200k here in the last two years (like I said, buying a house is my number one goal right now).

    5. Can Can Cannot*

      Do you get good benefits? A pension? Lifetime health insurance after retirement? Public sector positions sometimes include long-term benefits that should be factored into the analysis.

      1. Jen*

        Yes, good benefits including a pension. That is something I am taking into account, but it feels hard for me to weigh everything properly.

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          A good pension could be worth thousands of dollars a year. Find a financial advisor that can help you assess the value of your pension, and then factor it into your decision. It could be a big deal.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      I have read numerous articles recently about how it seems employers don’t offer raises to people they already employ, making it necessary to find a new job to be paid what you are worth. Doesn’t make a lot of sense, but apparently the way things are right now. You can make a run at your boss, armed with numbers, but I think you need to look for a new job. I’m sorry.

      1. Jen*

        My boss isn’t the problem, and asking for one or even giving an ultimatum won’t help, unfortunately. There’s an organization-wide freeze on raises for the foreseeable future as of two weeks ago. It’s caused by a domino effect from COVID.

  26. Justin*

    Now that I’ve actually accepted a new job (I took the higher paying one because it turned out it was actually fully remote when not occasionally traveling), I am reflecting on some absolutely nonsense from the hiring processes.

    Do any managers/HR folks here understand how disrespectful it is not to send an update at all after a second-round interview? Resume submission, whatever, but if you take the time to interview folks more than once, I think you can inform them they’re not moving on.

    It didn’t matter for me, but I think it’s worth noting these things that are “normal” but shouldn’t be.

    1. irene adler*

      Well, ghosting is a regular thing in the job interview world. Unfortunately. At least it allows potential candidates to easily see what that company’s priorities are.

    2. Jen*

      At every stage of the process, if someone isn’t moving on, they should be informed. But so often you’re just left hanging. It’s really unfair to candidates.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        That’s a little much. Some of this is a back or forth, the people I’m flat out rejecting are going to be the people that will react the most negatively. Oftentimes there isn’t any update right away

        1. Jen*

          Well, to clarify what I mean, once someone is hired, it would be polite to simply send out a form letter to all applicants saying thanks for applying but the position is now filled.

        2. Fikly*

          So because a few people might react negatively, you justify treating all applicants horribly? That’s more than a little much.

    3. Sherm*

      Yeah, ghosting is both common and rude. I was once ghosted after a day-long series of interviews: 9am to 5:30pm with no breaks. Even lunch was an interview.

      Now that I’m sometimes on the other side of hiring, though, I can see how accidental rudeness can occur. Maybe Jane thought Fergus was going to send out the rejections, but Fergus thought Jane was going to do it. Hiring is like any other work project — there can be delays and confusion, even a bit of chaos. Not to mention that many people only infrequently are involved in hiring and therefore fairly suck at it.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        Once I got a certain age, I stopped caring. I responded below from the management side, but I also got headhunted last year and feedback and rejection I got was so useless that it just made me mad. I rather would have just heard nothing. I feel like people think a reject gives you closure but it really doesn’t. It will just disappoint you and maybe open a can of worms (such as finding out the manager misunderstood basic things you said and you couldn’t have done it differently – they just not be knowledgeable of the industry. Not very useful feedback IMO)

    4. Policy Wonk*

      I totally agree with you, but where I work I am not allowed to do such notifications to candidates. Beyond the interview itself I’m not supposed to communicate with candidates. I hand off to HR and they (allegedly) do it. I have heard from more than one applicant that they do not hear in any kind of timely manner, and that the standard rejection notice is sometimes sent literally months after the interview.

    5. Lore*

      My worst-ever story in this regard: went through a phone screen and two rounds of in-person interviews for a job I really wanted and thought I’d interviewed really well for. Never heard from them again. Annoying. Then, a good 6 months later, I get an email from the main person I’d interviewed with; the interviews had caused them to really rethink the position, and I was the only original candidate who might fit the new brief. Massive apologies, they knew they’d behaved badly, but would I still be willing to consider the redesigned job? We set up a call (which had to be rescheduled, I can’t remember why), and it seemed to go as well as the first round of interviews.

      They ghosted me again. And I only found out about it because they announced the new hire several months later in an industry publication that notes job moves.

    6. Prospect Gone Bad*

      The problem is you often don’t know yet, for weeks. I struggle to pick someone. There really isn’t an update beyond “you’re good but so are two other people, and you have some strengths but also some quirks I am not going to change, but I am still considering you.”

      So I don’t know what the update would actually be. If the person was so stellar, I’d have hired them already. The fact I am stalling means none were that great and I’m trying to change the job to fit the pool. I wouldn’t consider this very positive if I were on the receiving end, and I don’t want to send lackluster updates to people unless I have to

      Then when we extend the offer, I want to make sure the person actually starts and isn’t a disaster before I shoot off rejection emails.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      It’s utter tripe. I’ve been ghosted numerous times throughout this hellsearch. Once, an employer emailed me about a different job than the one I applied to. She scheduled a video interview and then never showed up. I waited a while and emailed twice, but I never heard from them again.

      That company went straight on my naughty list. They could come begging to me on bended knee to work there and I would say no waaaay.

  27. jellybean*

    Posted this a few weeks ago and didn’t get any responses so take 2 :)

    I want to try my hand me freelance work in paid resume and cover letter editing, so I’d love to hear your experiences!
    -do you do this work and if so, thoughts/tips/advice?
    -have you ever paid for a resume edit or cover letter support? what made it worthwhile for you? (and if you are comfortable sharing, what rates you have or would pay!)

    (also just noting: I am definitely not trying to make a full-time living out of this and while I am not a career coach by trade, I do this allot for friends and get consistently great feedback. I also work in HR so I am pretty familiar with best practices and trends for a decent amount of industries and aware of the ones I don’t know well enough. eg. government resumes.)

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      Personally I would not pay for a resume/cover letter edit for myself (native English speaker applying to US jobs). I feel that part of the reason I submit written materials when I’m applying for a job is so that my potential employer can see my writing style, self-marketing, etc. and decide if I have the potential to be a good fit for the position. A decent edit from a professional would probably change my written voice, and a light edit wouldn’t be worth the money. The only way I could see *maybe* paying a consultant for an edit would be if I were applying to a field with extensive, specific requirements for written materials (like some types of academia) and I needed someone who knew the unwritten rules to walk through my application packet with me. But just normal resume/cover stuff? Nah. But YMMV a lot with this question depending on what field(s) you’re hoping to work with.

    2. WellRed*

      I’ve never paid for this service but sometimes think I should since my resume needs a big update and paying someone might help with my
      Mental block. For cover letters, no because I am a writer and need to do my own.

    3. Workerbee*

      I have paid for a resume edit! I bought myself one of Alison’s offers several years ago. I had finally decided it was time to move on from my job, and didn’t want to risk leaving any betterment of my resume undone. I thought it was totally worth it, both her suggestions and for my own peace of mind.

  28. BaseballIsFinallyBack*

    Is there good language for replying to a recruiter who is reaching out about one role but you are interested in a different position with the same organization (in this case in healthcare if that makes a difference answer wise)?

    1. Bobina*

      I’ve had success saying something like, “Thanks for reaching out about role X. Unfortunately its not quite what I’m looking for right now, however I did notice you have role Y open at the moment which is more in line with what I’m looking for. Would you be the right person to speak to about it?”

      A good recruiter will say no but I’ll put you in touch with my colleague who is.

      1. BaseballIsFinallyBack*

        Thank you! This us what I was looking for. I think I was overanalyzing my possible responses.

  29. Skye*

    A few weeks ago I asked about a coworker who kept calling innocuous comments racist as a ‘joke’. In the end I didn’t have to ask him to stop again, as he hasn’t made that joke again since that Friday thread. (I also found out I was not being specifically targeted in this, he made this joke with other coworkers too.)

    Now for a completely unrelated question – is it worth it to try to get into accounting, so I’d really like to not do everything all over again, and I’m in my 30s. I don’t know if I’d be better off just focusing on things I can do with the degree I have or what.

    1. Lifelong student*

      I got my degree in accounting at age 47- so it is not too late for you! There are so many types of jobs for accountants- business, industry, public, governmental, academic- you name it! Go for it!

    2. Purple Cat*

      What is your degree in and what’s your current role? (ie how much of a leap is it to move to accounting)

      1. Skye*

        I have a bachelor’s of science in mathematics. Right now I have a part time food service job as well as a data entry job. I like having a routine / more methodical roles, and I’m good at tracking little tedious details.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

          You could even put your part time “unrelated” position on a resume if you look at accounting positions in the food service industry. (Restaurant chains, industrial catering etc.)

        2. CupcakeCounter*

          Why not look at getting a job as a bookkeeper as a test? It sounds like a good fit for what you like and doesn’t require an accounting degree. I think there are some online or community courses you could take to get a certificate and would help transition your skillset.
          Then if you like it, you can determine if you want to get an accounting degree.

        3. Former Accountant/CPA*

          You sound as though you’d be great as an accounting clerk, especially in an accounts payable position. There isn’t a high bar to entry; the processes are generally well documented or trained (ideally both) enough not to require much accounting education. A bookkeeping class at a community college or high school adult education department could look good on your résumé, but methodical and good with tedious details is practically the *definition* of a good accounting clerk.
          Then, once you’re IN an accounting department, you’ll be surrounded by accountants, and can see what they do. Talk to them, especially your boss, about what training you would need, assuming you like what you see.

          1. Chauncy Gardener*

            Totally agree with this. Accounts Payable or Payroll could be right up your alley, with not a lot of training/education required. Good luck!

    3. Mary B*

      My mom went back to school for accounting in her 50s and absolutely loves her job. She thinks it’s the best thing she could have done. It wasn’t easy for her because she did evening/online classes while working full time, but she thinks it was worth it.

    4. Person online*

      My dad got his accounting degree at age 40 and did the rest of his career in accounting and was very happy! Go for it!

    5. Your Local Cdn*

      I’m a CPA, and would encourage you to go for it if you have an interest in it! However another suggestion would be to look into data analytics (you wouldn’t need to go back to school with a math background). A lot of accounting firms and departments hire data analysts as well, and the bonus would be that generally in those areas if you do want to get your CPA after, they will cover at least some of the costs.

    6. Pam Adams*

      I see plenty of older accounting students in my position as an advisor. Go for it!

  30. often trapped under a cat*

    Mostly a vent:

    Today is my last day at a place where I’ve worked for a few decades, starting when I was fairly young. (not my first job, though many people assume it was)

    Because of the kind of business it is, I’ve made a few public/social media announcements that I’m leaving.

    Almost everyone seems to be assuming I’m retiring, but I’m not. I was fired/let go as part of a re-org. I don’t really want to say that because I don’t want people to be pissed at my employer (some of my friends and colleagues are, but I’m honestly not). It was a business decision and there’s no need to get worked up over it.

    At the same time, I’m not retiring, and the “congratulations on the next phase of your life” comments are kindof annoying, and I can’t figure out what to say, or if I should say anything, in reply.

    1. Mouse*

      “Congratulations on the next phase of your life” is not something I would say ONLY to a retiring colleague! I would say that, or something similar, to anyone whose plans I didn’t know. Think of it as more similar to “excited to see what you’ll do next!”

      1. often trapped under a cat*

        oh, I’d say something like that to someone who was leaving for another job or to go to school or moving away or any one of a thousand other things. but if someone just said they were leaving, without indicating where they were going, I wouldn’t say that. because they might be leaving because of illness, or to take care of an ailing family member, or for any of a thousand reasons that they wouldn’t want to share publicly.

        1. Mouse*

          You know, that’s an excellent point and something I’ve never considered. Maybe there are others in your network that are similarly socially clueless. :)

        2. AnonAnon*

          Right – Personally, if I didn’t know the reason for their leaving, I might say something generic like “Wishing you all the best!” Some people just assume incorrectly, and I get how that feels annoying.

          A friend of mine got divorced and changed her last name back to her maiden name. She was amused and annoyed by the number of clueless people at work who notice the name change and said to her “Congratulations on your marriage!”

        3. Doctors Whom*

          I usually say “best wishes on your next chapter” specifically for this reason. I can give you my sincerest best wishes that the next thing you are focused on turns out well, or that you find comfort in it, or that you heal, or you are ok while helping an ill loved one, etc. I want the best possible things for you, whatever those might be in your situation. And I’m not your coworker, so I’m not “sorry to see you go.”

          In fact… I said exactly this on LinkedIn today to a college friend who is leaving a longtime employer and was not specific about their next adventure. No idea what is next for them, but I really wish them well no matter what it is.

          So OP if you are getting congratulatory notes in comments on social media, I’d… just let them go by. You don’t need to reply. You don’t need to clear the air. Take them as good wishes and let them go, since they were meant as good wishes. Then when you land somewhere else, just make an announcement about how excited you are to be the new VP of Teapots at Cool Cookery Inc.

          I am sorry you did not get to leave on your terms. I hope that you find the right next thing for you.

    2. Alice*

      Tough. I’m sorry you’re not leaving on your terms.
      I think you probably want to correct the record, not just because these comments are kind of annoying, but also because the people in your network who wish you well might have good networking leads for your next job.
      I think you can clarify that it was a re-org without leading to people getting pissed at your employer. Personally I’d probably use the terms “lay off” or “re-org” or both, but you don’t actually have to be explicit about it. The “meat” of the message is “thanks for your good wishes! Actually I’m not retiring; I’m excited about ———” where the blank might be:
      – contining to work in industry X
      – finding a new opportunity in new industry/new region
      – using my Y skills in a different context.
      Good luck :)

    3. it's always tea time*

      I think what to say really depends on if you’re jumping immediately to new work or not. If you do have something lined up, say something like “I’m excited to be working for X”, if not, I’d say something like “I’m taking a month or two off, then I’ll be looking for work in field Y”. This is your network, it’s entirely appropriate to let people know you’re looking, if you haven’t found anything yet. Best of luck, though, it’s still a shock.

    4. WellRed*

      Don’t worry about managing other’s emotions or reactions for them. Good luck for whatever you do next.

    5. Sincerely Raymond Holt*

      People are awkward and most people don’t know what to say in a lot of situations. You’ll be happier if you take it as the sentiment that it is, which is that they are wishing you well. The words matter less than the message.

    6. Purple Cat*

      It sounds like you haven’t shared (or don’t yet know) what your next role is going to be.
      So people can’t say “congratulations on the new position” because there isn’t one…..
      “Next phase” is open-ended to “whatever” is coming next.

    7. *daha**

      This is a networking opportunity. “I’m still working on that. If you run into any openings that I’d be a good fit for, I’d love to hear about them. Can I give you my personal email address?”

    8. MaryLoo*

      If you were let go as part of a reorg, you were not fired. You were laid off.

      Fired means you were let go for cause: poor performance, something dishonest or illegal, outrageous behavior.

      I don’t understand why you don’t want to just say you were laid off (or downsized, or made redundant, or your position was eliminated, if you find those terms to be more palatable).

    9. ThursdaysGeek*

      A lay-off because of a re-org is completely different from being fired. It sounds like you were not fired, just let go. It’s fine to say that the re-org caused layoffs, and you are one of the ones let go.

    10. Cocafonix*

      Your question and responses here are good to the extent of being more aware of how the generic norms might be received. But the reality is that if one chooses to post a life event like this on social media, one can hardly expect to control the responses one gets. Especially, in your case, having given no indication of what actually is next or how you feel about it. Had you said something like “taking a short bliss break and look forward to a new gig” might have give your poor responders something to work with. For now, you respond saying thank you for the well wishes.

  31. job search friend*

    Hello! I’m trying to support a friend who’s looking to leave a job that’s actively harmful to their physical and mental health. The challenge here is that I’ve got a decidedly white collar, higher-ed-focused career path, and their experience is much more blue collar (they’re currently a manager at a warehouse). They’ve said they don’t really know how to job search, and I have some ideas for how to help them figure out what they might want to do and how to look (ask friends and trusted former coworkers, etc), but I know that a lot of my normal advice doesn’t apply at ALL. Any tips or resources for folks in blue collar job searches?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Networking is just as valid an approach for blue collar as it is white collar.

      Your friend almost certainly has contacts with those in the supply chain – upstream (suppliers) or downstream (retailers/2nd tier distributors), with physical service companies (the people who fix the forklifts and the trucks etc.), with admin/financial/support services, and so on. And those people have contacts too. It’s completely normal to call up the contractor that does forklift maintenance and say “Hey, I’m looking to leave Evil Alpaca Corp; do you have any other customers that you know are short-handed for warehouse supervisors?”

      1. job search friend*

        Thanks! I figured this was the case, I just don’t know enough about it to give specific advice–they’re currently so beaten down by their job that they’re having a hard time seeing options that they probably know better than I do. So this is very helpful!

    2. DG*

      I often see threads about local employers in my city’s subreddit – discussions about which employers are hiring, which pay the best, who’s offering bonuses, which have the best management/work policies, etc. I live in the land of distribution centers, so a lot of these discussions are about warehouse jobs, but I’ve also seen threads about restaurants, health professions, and skilled trades like plumbing and welding.

  32. Albeira Dawn*

    Industry-gala-that’s-not-really-a-gala update: I have acquired a dress to wear. It is slightly more fancy than I would normally wear to the office, but not something I would wear to prom.
    New question that sounds like a math problem: the event is at 5 PM on a weekday. It’s a short trip by transit from my office to the venue (10 minutes). I live 5 minutes walking distance from the office. Should I (a) wear the dress into the office (b) bring the dress and change at the office (c) go home, change, and meet my coworkers at the venue or (d) something I haven’t thought of?
    Summary of trip times:
    Office -> venue: 10 minutes by transit
    Office -> home: 5 minutes by foot
    Home -> venue: 15 minutes by transit

    1. Jen*

      What are your coworkers doing? If any of them are changing at the office and traveling to the event together, that sounds fun and like a way to save a few minutes. Otherwise, any option sounds fine so I would just choose the least stressful one! Does your outfit change also invoke freshening up hair and makeup? You may not want to carry all of that stuff with you to the office.

    2. Mouse*

      Honestly, I’d say it depends on your work bathroom amenities and how high-maintenance you are! If I were you, I would go home, but we only have a few single-user bathrooms, so there would almost certainly be congestion. I’d do your hair in the morning however you want it to be for the event, and as much of your makeup (if relevant) as you can without looking too over-the-top. Then go home, throw on the dress and shoes, touch up makeup as needed, and go!

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You live close enough to slip out a little early and change at home. If you’re friendly enough with the co-workers who are also attending, you can offer your place to them for changing (I have a few co-workers I would do that for) but otherwise plan to dress at home and ask your co-workers if they’re planning to leave together. If they are, meet them back at the office.

      But don’t wear your dress at work all day. I used to change in the office bathroom on occasions like this.

    4. SansaStark*

      I really wouldn’t wear the dress to your office just because I’m imagining 100 scenarios where I end up having to go home and scramble to find something else bc I spilled coffee on myself, my skirt caught on a cabinet and ripped, etc. I am obviously quite accident-prone.

      I’d either change at the office or run home to change and come back like others are suggesting. I have an involved makeup routine so it would be easier for me to get ready at home and then dash back over to the office. I also like having a moment to myself before a big event where I’m “on” for hours.

      1. DinosaurWrangler*

        Don’t wear the dress to work. Either change at the office or go home 15 minutes early.

        One place I worked had a semi-fancy holiday party. One of the engineers wore his suit to work that day. This in a very casual dress environment. He looked really out of place all day. Plus lots of ribbing from coworkers (Job interview, huh? Going to court? etc)

    5. JustaTech*

      I usually choose B, because my hair/makeup routine are pretty simple.

      Though one time this did result in me doing my makeup by emergency lighting because the power had gone out at work just as I was getting ready to head out to my event.

    6. Nancy*

      You live only 5 minutes from work? Go home and change. I’d love to have that option.

  33. Chidi has a stomach ache*

    So, I currently work in secondary ed, a position that is a blend of classroom teaching and administration. I was in academia, and left a couple of years ago. I’m getting pretty burned out on teaching, and my current job doesn’t have a lot of opportunities for upward growth (it’s a very horizontally organized school, and most leadership positions are hybrid like my current one). So, I’ve been job searching. I thought I might make my way back to higher ed in a non-teaching role, but a lot of the jobs where I seem to fit in terms of experience/credentials (3-5 years, graduate degree) are much lower than I’m currently making, especially if I shift from a 10mo to a 12 mo position. But I don’t seem to have quite enough experience for more senior jobs (8+ years exp), and also those are fewer and further between. So I’m having trouble figuring out what my next step would be — a new field? A job that is a reach position, instead of a lateral move?

    So, I guess I’m looking for advice on two points: if anyone out there has left education for another field, what was that? Or, how do you know when you’re ready to apply for reach positions, and which kinds of reach positions are worth the time applying for?

    1. Esmeralda*

      If you’re going back to academia, what kinds of positions are you looking for? Because in my academic-adjacent field, we used to get a couple hundred applications for each position and a couple dozen of those were on paper excellent and after the interviews etc we always had three or more good candidates we could hire…and now, we’re getting maybe 50 applications/fewer good ones/fewer people going thru the whole process.

      It’s the same across campus, outside of tenure-track faculty positions.

      Can you share a little more info?

      For our positions, we want “more experienced” but we’re having to give serious consideration to less-experienced folks.

      1. Chidi has a stomach ache*

        Interesting — is the instability of higher ed through the pandemic is affecting the candidate pool?

        I’ve been looking on the student affairs side of things (my background is a combo of community-engaged research and student formation/development). I was actually recently finalist for a position where I would’ve been at an assistant director level, managing some community stakeholder relationships and faculty training for a specific center within the university. But I withdrew when they told me the salary — it was less than I make now and they were open about not having any room for negotiation. An old mentor of mine let me know about another assistant director opening for a job that would’ve been student leadership development, but when we talked it came out that this would’ve also been too low of a salary (she also had no room to negotiate). I was pretty surprised at how low the salaries were set, given that I’d heard hiring was getting tougher for high ed — you’d think raising salaries would be part of trying to attract talent.

        1. Squirrel Nutkin*

          Just another heads up about Student Affairs — at least as far as it looks to me as an outsider, if you work in Student Affairs, the administration at my school thinks they @#$%@#$%ing own you. The Student Affairs staff are called in for all kinds of mandatory weekend/night/summer obligations . . . EVERYTHING. Hope you don’t have kids, and better live close to the school, ’cause you’ll be there a LOT.

        2. Esmeralda*

          No, it’s the crap way we were treated over the past couple years, the insistence that we all drink happy juice now and pretend the pandemic is over yay, and unwillingness to let us flex and or WFH at least some of the time. And the pay differential. ( bitter? Me?)

          Pay is a serious problem. Most higher Ed institutions are just not nimble enough to raise pay quickly. Public institutions are even more constrained. My state recently put thru raises for virtually all state employees. Biggest raise many of us have seen in years.

    2. Pam Adams*

      academic advising, financial aid counseling, registrar’s office positions? You would probably be moving to a staff job, not a director/assistant director role. At my state university, the pay is not the best, compared to corporate jobs, but benefits are good and we have pensions.

      Also, look for education-adjacent, for instance, working with the companies that build technology for campuses. As an educator, you are better able to know what’s needed, and how to get busy teachers to use the new tech.

  34. Alice*

    Waiting to hear about next steps after a first round interview.
    It’s a week after they said they’d contact me.
    TBH in this industry timelines are super long.
    So hard to sit tight though….

    1. MaryLoo*

      Best thing to do is apply to more jobs. It’ll take your mind off it. Also, it takes time to “fill the pipeline”, so waiting until you have a decision on one job before you apply to another will lengthen your job hunt exponentially. Besides, it’s good to be able to compare prospective jobs and workplaces.

  35. Mouse*

    I recently received a promotion but it was a bandaid on a broken dam of issues and I’m looking for a new role. The promotion is my old title + “Senior”. I did update my LinkedIn. Should I list the title on my resume, and how should I format it? I have no substantive achievements yet, but I feel like omitting my current title and saying that the past title was “March 2021-present” is too incorrect.

    I have had six titles in five years at my company, so my resume currently looks like this:

    Sr. Teapot Painter, March 2022-present
    Teapot Painter, June 2021-March 2022
    -Accomplishment
    -Accomplishment
    -Accomplishment

    Teacup Designer
    -Accomplishment
    -Accomplishment

    etc.

    1. Sloanicota*

      This looks right to me; that’s how I would do it. If you want to pad you could just list the dates of tenure at the org without being explicit about when you were promoted:

      Teapots Inc (June 2021-present)
      Sr Teapot Painter
      Teapot painter
      -accomplishment
      -accomplishment
      -accomplishment

    2. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      I think this makes a lot sense and looks fine – it’s such a recent promotion that I don’t think it’s anything problematic to not have accomplishments yet. And definitely don’t leave it off since you’re finally getting some [bandaid] recognition, however late.

      If you wanted/it was relevant to any jobs you are applying for I could see adding a note on a high-value responsibility or current project assigned as a result of your new title.

    3. Prospect Gone Bad*

      You don’t have big accomplishments, but do you have responsibility for anything? You’d want to put something like “took over responsibility for something” or else it will indeed look like an empty title change!

    4. Purple Cat*

      Your layout looks good.

      The other option that I’m toying with (similar situation) is
      Sr. Teapot Painter June 2021-Present
      – Promoted from Teapot Painter March 2022
      – accomplishments

      I don’t know if that comes across as disingenuous, but I like specifically calling out the wording of the promotion since it’s recent.

  36. Another Ex-Librarian*

    Hey all! I’m… looking to get out of libraries. I need help figuring out what jobs I could feasibly apply for where they won’t just toss my application sight unseen. I’m a youth services librarian so I have event planning, collection development, mild tech skills (basic HTML and CSS and a passing understanding of javascript, wordpress and the like), bombass customer service skills, and organizational skills. I’d love something remote but basically anything that’ll pay the bills and give me health insurance and GET ME OUT will be nice. Any suggestions?

    1. Alice*

      It probably wouldn’t be remote, but — event planning? Bespoke theme bar/bat mitzvahs? (I’m really leaning in to the youth services librarian part ;) )

    2. EMP*

      I have several friends who do admin work at universities and it sounds like you would do great in one of those roles. I’m not sure what the actual job titles are – they’re different jobs, for one thing – but it’s stuff like working in student services and organizing freshmen orientation, move in, events, or being an admin for a specific set of professors or labs. Good luck!

      1. Another Ex-Librarian*

        That would be great actually, I could probably do that. I’ll start sniffing around

    3. HeavensToBetsy*

      It looks like you just want any job that will give you enough money. Suggestion: I wouldn’t take just any job just for the money otherwise you might run away from that job too. Just a thought…

      1. Another Ex-Librarian*

        Listen, I’m currently showing up to my job for the paycheck only and if I’m going to do that it might as well be a decent paycheck

    4. Youth work*

      Your experience sounds like you’d be a good fit for nonprofit youth work! My partner plans events for the local girl scout council. There’s also after-school, community education, Big Brothers Big Sisters, the Y, youth director for a church, and more.

    5. OtterB*

      At my higher-ed-adjacent not-for-profit “program assistant” positions would be a reasonable match to your skills. They do a lot of event planning, updates to the website, online applications, coordinating with volunteers, etc., assisting workshop speakers and coordinating slide decks, etc.

    6. Granger*

      Your skills are highly desirable at small to mid-sized credit unions! Having employees with broad skills – especially those you name here – and who are willing to handle a variety of responsibilities is essential to their success (there are often generalist positions rather than a regular just-a-Teller that larger credit unions would have). Credit unions are typically professional but less formal and share commonalities with libraries for a good culture match. I work at a credit union and we love hiring teachers and library employees for this very reason! You might look up job opps by searching for your state’s Credit Union League website – it will have a mix of jobs which are posted elsewhere and some that are only posted there. Good luck!

    8. Lizbert Jane*

      I’m also an ex-librarian, and found my way out through jobs in technical support and training. Several of my colleagues in these roles also had library backgrounds – librarians make spectacular tech support engineers! Bonus: I picked up so many tech skills along the way that I eventually worked my way up to software developer.

  37. matcha123*

    Does not having a career goal look bad to workplaces?
    Likewise, does it look terrible if you’re not striving to be the best in your field? (I aim to do the best within my ability, but being The Best has never been interesting to me.)

    I don’t know what I want to do and I don’t have the time or money to figure it out. I do know that I can do a lot (outside of highly specialized fields, of course), but I don’t bring a passion for, say, data entry or a passion for pushing a company to its next level.

    1. Soup of the Day*

      I think if you outright say you don’t have any career goals it won’t look great, but “being the best” isn’t the only kind of goal that companies want to see. Something like “I want to grow X skills” or “I want to learn more about Y” would be enough of a goal for most. And even if you don’t particularly want to grow your skills or learn anything new, you probably will anyway just through the course of doing a job, so they’re achievable goals as well. You might even discover real goals for yourself as time goes on.

      1. matcha123*

        “I want to grow X skills” isn’t something I’ve thought of saying to a company, so thank you for the comment!
        I always thought of that answer as bad because it’s “selfish”? and advice I’d read before boiled down to: “If it doesn’t help the company, then stfu.”
        I’ll have to rethink some of my approach.

        1. SansaStark*

          Growing X skill could *absolutely* benefit the company as well as yourself, so I think it’s great to maybe reframe your thinking on that!

    2. SansaStark*

      This was me for a really long time. I wanted to be good at my job and then I wanted to go home and not think about my job. That’s not something I could really say to my manager! Are you interested in your industry at all? I found that I could usually keep some of those questions at bay with doing a combination of Soup’s recommendation on finding a skill or two that I wanted to grow and something about deepening my knowledge about my industry.

    3. Echo*

      There’s a great answer from Alison that gets at the ‘passion for data entry’ piece of this: https://www.askamanager.org/2021/01/should-i-fake-interest-in-the-job-during-an-interview.html

      In general, I think “how does this work align with your goals?” is another way of asking “will you get bored at this job and leave after a couple months?” You could say something like “I’m looking for an opportunity to use [skill that relates to the job] and continue to build that skill. In the long term, I’m hoping to stay in this kind of role and (if applicable) gain more seniority.”

      1. matcha123*

        I remember reading this when it came out and completely forgot about it, thank you for the link!
        Something I notice about myself, which I don’t know if I should even mention in an interview, is that I find myself feeding off the energy of others. If they are excited and passionate about the job, I find myself feeling more excited and passionate.
        This goes for things I’m not even interested in. The other day I was talking with someone about hydrogen energy, not a topic I particularly feel anything toward, but their way of speaking and the data they provided really spoke to me and made me want to learn more.
        Will definitely be taking some notes from that link!

  38. urban teacher*

    I put in my resignation for my teaching job for June. Meanwhile, I’ve been using the 100 best company list my local newspaper put out to apply to other jobs. Any other suggestions to find smaller companies? I agree with the poster here that smaller companies might be more willing to hire a career changer that is a generalist.

    1. Grace Less*

      Check if your metro publishes a list of “best employers” and/or “healthiest employers”. In my area, those lists are broken into small/medium/large categories and the companies who put themselves forth are largely ones who are actively hiring.

  39. Seeking*

    How do you ask for help and clarity without being labeled as problematic?

    I’m lost and completely confounded by my new job. They have things 7 different systems for asking for budget for projects and it seems that the system I have to use depends completely upon everyone else’s personal preferences (no wonder we have budget issues).

    I feel like I’m the person telling the emperor that he’s naked every time I ask for help. Example, I ask for details about why I should use one system for Kim and another for Bob even though the expenses are from the same portion of the budget and it really only seems to be down to who responds to the group email first.

    1. Austistic and Anxious: The Biography*

      Do you ever have team check-ins/meetings? This seems to be something that could be addressed there. What I’ve done in the past is to sit down, write out my understanding of the procedures, and then bring it up at a check in, while asking (a nice phrase I learned from a coworker here) “What’s the wisdom (or story) behind X decision?” It lets you point out oddities while being very polite.

      1. Seeking*

        I’m going to use that wording. I really like it.

        I have team check ins with my boss and the project managers but I was hired specifically to interface with finance because the PMs are so frustrated and project delays are usually due to a disconnect somewhere in the process of engaging with the financial analysts. I’ve taken this way up the chain too.

    2. Esmeralda*

      Do you actually have to know why? (I mean, you want to know, but would knowing why make your work easier?)

      I’d just ask at the start (or at whatever point is appropriate): which budget system do I need to use for this project — should I use system A for the whole thing, or do I need to use different systems for this piece, that piece, the other piece? And then just use what you’re told you need to use? I’m not trying to be snarky, I’m just trying to figure out if you’re asking the wrong question…what do you hope to get from asking “why”? Because it sounds like, you want (someone?) to say, this is madness, let’s all just use one system! But is that even likely?

      1. Seeking*

        The problem is that the answer depends on who I ask. I could ask 5 people (in the same email), which system I need to use to request to purchase a new lama and I get 5 completely different answers even though I provide the exact same details (cost center, purpose, budget line item, etc).

        I’m asking them how to determine the answer myself because I’ve been told I should know the answer by now (I’m two months into this job). It seems completely arbitrary and I have 20 years working in finance and AP and I’ve never encountered anything like this.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I’m facing a similar situation – 5 months into the new job, there are at least 5 different places to store information and no one has a consistent process for storing common documents or sharing the locations. It takes forever to locate a document!

      The potential differences are: everyone (colleagues and our manager) recognizes that this situation exists and is a problem, no one seems to have a strong preference for one location over another, and no one is expecting me to have figured it out by now (!). Since it affects me the most due to a new task I’m taking on, I have offered to my manager to come up with one process to rule them all and when I return from medical leave, this will be one of my priorities.

      So is it possible for you to flip the script? If you’re the main person having to use these systems and they are equivalent in terms of inputs/outputs, can you offer to simplify things by being the one to choose a process? If they can’t tell you why they need one system over another using a legitimate business reason (e.g. only system A has function X) rather than just familiarity, then you as the primary user should get to decide. They provide you the inputs you need, you use the system of your choice, they still get the result they want.

    4. Generic Name*

      Do you ever get grief for using the “wrong” system? If no one has ever corrected you, could you use the system that you like best every time and see what happens? Is there someone who had been around forever who you could ask why there are 7 different systems? I work in a small company I’ve been at for over 10 years, and I usually know the story behind why we do something that seems really dumb. (Unfortunately, the reason is usually also dumb)

      1. Seeking*

        I do get grief for it. I’ve tried pointing out that I am doing what I can to make sense of it and that the project I put into system X is now being directed to system Y just because Bob prefers to pull reports from Y.

        This is a company with 60,000 employees so it’s starting to make more sense that they scaled to quickly without getting all departments on board with the process changes. The published company processes don’t match what I’m directed to do which adds to my stress.

        1. MaryLoo*

          What does your boss say about this?

          For a few weeks keep track of what people are asking for and the system they expect you to use. You can show a pattern (or lack of one). Ask things like “Jim, Sally, and Bob want the stats on llama shampoos, but Jim wants me to use system A, Sally wants System B, and Bob wants System C. Is there any reason why I can’t use system A for all of them?

          If there’s really chaos and confusion and you’d boss is no help, you might have to keep a list of people who request things from you and the system they want you to use. Or by department. And when they make the request, ask them which system they want.

          If the requesters give you “you should know this”, just tell them that everybody wants a different system, and it’s more efficient to ask people what they want rather than guess.And if you can pull it off, add “I have lots of skills, but mind-reading isn’t one of them”

  40. Lizabeth*

    Need suggestions on how to help a new employee succeed when the bosses “allowed” the person she replaced to “train” her. The training was done by Cruella in spite of objections from everybody – and Cruella didn’t do very much that we can tell. I’ve transferred files to Glida and told her to ask me anything at any time, but what else?

    On the other hand, Glida will be a pleasure to work with going forward!!!! And I realized that I’ve worked with Cruella for 16 years (which is scary now that I type it but she was better managed back in the day – past 5 years not so much)

    1. EMP*

      I bet Glida won’t even know what to ask. Can you check in on a specific file/task and offer more specific help?

      1. After 33 years ...*

        +1 Be proactive – “How’s file Q going? Any issues with {occasionally difficult} procedure Z?”

    2. Can't think of a funny name*

      Maybe tell Glida that you are aware the “training” she got might not be adequate and to not be afraid to ask questions…she might feel like she’s expected to know everything b/c she got “training.”

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      When I joined NewJob, one coworker made me a reference file with links to common resources, examples of the kind of work with do, templates, etc. It was a godsend. Could you do something like this for her, or give her any training documentation you may have used yourself?

    4. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

      You can offer to partner with her as she does tasks for the first time just to be available and answer questions for her in real time. That way, she doesn’t feel like she’s doing it alone and has to do a ton of research before she’s allowed to answer a question. At the very least, let her know you are available to help her and answer any questions about the documentation, tasks, whatever so she doesn’t feel like she’s swimming in the deep end. Even maybe set up a short series of 1:1s if appropriate to meet with her regularly so she can ask questions.

    5. Purple Cat*

      Sounds like you don’t manage Gilda? But you’re in a more senior position?
      I would flat out reassure her that you understand Cruella’s training most likely wasn’t complete and that she really should feel free to start from scratch with her questions. Alternatively – can you effectively restart her training? If Cruella taught some things correctly, it should be a quick refresh, but if not, you’re nipping the issue in the bud.

  41. Mrs. Hoover*

    I had my performance session with my direct report this week. I’m on the fence about whether it went well. It didn’t go badly, though. While they did recognize that some of their work needs to improve, there’s definitely a lack of ownership around the issues I brought up. We have regular meetings and conversations around these issues, so I wasn’t surprised to hear some of their previous explanations repeated and to repeat back what’s required and necessary for their job. (One of the issues is not implementing feedback)

    Anyway, I’ve given them time to think about the issues and let me know the resources they need to improve and we’re going to meet next week. I’m less stressed about that conversation, though based on what I know about my staffer, I have my doubts about whether they’ll have thoughtful, productive tactics to improve the issues. But, I am willing to be hopeful and keep an open mind.

  42. Starfruit*

    This is an odd question, but …

    Right now my hands are really torn up (patches of missing skin, scabs, broken nails, etc) from job duties that were foisted upon me and are one of the reasons I want to leave. I don’t have time to spend a couple of weeks trying to heal my hands before I apply for jobs. Could I wear gloves to an interview without looking too out-there, and if so what kinds? Should I match them to my shoes, for instance?

    1. CTT*

      Probably a dumb question, but can you wear gloves while you do your job duties instead? If only to protect your hands even if you weren’t interviewing!

      1. Starfruit*

        The available gloves aren’t sufficient and I haven’t managed to get proper heavy duty gloves yet. (I should have included this in my post)

    2. t-vex*

      I think coming to an interview with gloves on would look really weird. Just make sure you’re tidy and clean and I’m sure you’ll be fine. Maybe a band-aid if there’s a particularly egregious spot.

      1. Starfruit*

        Heh, I think the bandaids would cause my hands to look semi-mummified, but maybe a good manicurist can help me.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would not wear the gloves. I think, as an interviewer, I’d rather hear someone say a breezy, “please excuse the state of my hands! [Garden work, heavy duty box-moving, whatever] did a number of them last weekend!”

    4. Lora*

      OMG I am so glad to be able to answer this for you. I have some pretty bad scars on my hands that used to be a lot more noticeable (short version: don’t mess with feral cats, even if you ARE trying to get them to a vet, have the TNR people sedate the furry demons for you).
      There are lots of gloves on Amazon and also Etsy has some cute ones. Don’t know if you present as female/male, but there’s actually a LOT of sort of retro formal-ish looking gloves for fairly cheap. I got a bunch in neutral colors and a few colors that match outfits: white, off-white, blue, black, grey, purple, green, I have a whole basket of em. The vast majority of interviews I did were online anyway and I pretty much kept my hands in my lap or taking notes off camera, but when I did have to be in person the gloves I liked most were sort of monochrome but not quite the same color (light gray gloves / gray suit & dress, blue gloves / navy suit skirt etc).
      After I got hired and more people saw me in person, they saw the scars and would occasionally stare but not say anything. Now, I dress sort of retro anyway, so gloves didn’t look too odd on me to begin with, but it wasn’t like anyone was going to say something about it.

    5. yogurt*

      You might want to buy some cotton gloves, black or white. My partner’s mother has very severe eczema on her hands and wears them when she’s out and about in town. If people ask she just very casually says she uses a medication for her hands (no explanation for why). It’s one of those things that’s unusual to see but fades to the background almost instantly. You could say something similar but stress that it should be over in a few weeks.

      The bonus for that is if you are using some topical medication to help speed the healing process, you can protect your hands! If you decide to go this route, I would wear them in my “normal” life, to work or out to the store, just to get used to it before an interview. I wish you a fast recovery!!

      1. Starfruit*

        That makes sense. I have some white cotton gloves I’ve been wearing at night to keep the lotion on, but maybe black ones would look a bit more formal.

    6. Anonymous healthcare person*

      I don’t think you can wear gloves as it is really out of the norm. Would a manicure be in the budget at all? I bite my nails and a manicure even on me makes my hands look so much better. Where I am, prices for manicures vary a lot- like $30 to $100 – stay away from the luxurious spa type places for being $$$. You can also look up how to give yourself a manicure.

      Also, and this is weird I know, but when I get a rash or rough skin on my hands, diaper cream works! I put it on at night and it cures the problem in a couple of days. Don’t know if your hands are suffering from this but just in case. Cheap option.

      Also, play around with concealer on your hands and see if that helps. Bandaids for cuts, concealer for marks?

      Maybe this is more about your comfort when interviewing more than anything, I would say most people won’t comment or maybe even notice. If they do, you could tell them the truth – unusual duties at work – or say you were working on a project that was really hard on your hands and be vague about what it was – yard work? Home diy maybe?

      Good luck with your job search!

      1. Starfruit*

        Diaper cream! That’s a good idea!

        I was hoping to avoid the cost of a manicure but I think you’re right. Thank you.

    7. Purple Cat*

      I wouldn’t try to cover and hide them. I think that’s going to draw so much more attention/ come across as odd.
      I think it gives you an easy out.
      Interviewer: Why are you looking for a new role?
      Starfruit: (Holds up hands) This is why. Change in job responsibilities without proper support.

      1. Generic Name*

        Yup. Your wrecked hands are a perfect answer to “why are you looking to leave your company?” You can say your current employer refuses to supply appropriate PPE.

    8. Might Be Spam*

      You can use a liquid bandage to cover some of the damage as long as it isn’t on a part that flexes too much. It’s clear and goes on like clear nail polish. Don’t use actual nail polish. For me, it seems to heal faster and avoid noticeable scabs.

  43. Email Etiquette is confusing*

    When a CEO at another company responds to your email and loops in you to a C-Suite exec lower in the hierarchy at their company, do you reply-all immediately to be thankful for the connection or wait for the 2nd in command to publically respond to their boss?

    Does it matter on timing if CEO replied to the email chain very late at night?

    (If it matters, we’re in nonprofits, I’m a partnerships director at my org and I met the CEO through my network last year so had his email in my contacts. And I’m making an ask of their org.)

    (Yes I may be overthinking this!)

    1. CTT*

      Have you been looped in to answer a specific question or are you replying all for the sake of it?

    2. ArtK*

      Unless the CEO said something specific like: “Fergus is our teapot painting expert, please work with him,” I’d go ahead with the initial reply-all thanking the CEO. I’d then leave it up to them or their delegate. The reason for this is that you’re not a mind-reader and you may not know why the CEO copied that person. They might be delegating or it might simply be an FYI.

  44. GreenTea*

    I am in a bit of a job search conundrum. I’m currently 11 weeks pregnant and saw an internal job posted that I was interested in. I had the first interview yesterday and it went so well that the hiring manager told me on the spot she wanted to move me to panel interviews next week. I’m excited about this, but also unsure of when to disclose my pregnancy.

    Normally I would wait until I have an offer, but the role itself is unique and there is nobody else in the department that could fill it. Ironically, the department currently relies upon my current department to perform aspects of role until they find someone new. I am planning on a 4 month maternity leave starting in October, so I’d have a solid 7 months before going on leave. I know legally that shouldn’t affect their decision, but I also feel guilty not disclosing given the circumstances.

    Should I disclose to the hiring manager now? Wait until after panel interviews? Or until I have an offer?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      So, I had someone that applied for a promotion in my team. Before applying, she disclosed to me that she was pregnant and asked if it still made sense to apply. I said of course it did and she now holds that position (and is currently on leave). :)

      Now, though, this is me. It shouldn’t matter and didn’t, but others may let it affect their judgment. I think you’re fine to disclose later, but go by what makes you comfortable and what you know about the people involved.

    2. Carlottamousse*

      I’d recommend waiting until you have an offer and see what their reaction is. If you tell them too early (before an offer is made), it may muddy the waters and make it more difficult for them to make a decision without worrying about discrimination. Also, congratulations!

    3. Purple Cat*

      Wait until you’re in the position. The likelihood that it will be held against you is high – even if that might be subconscious. Remind yourself that you are doing them a favor by not disclosing information that is illegal to factor into their decision-making process. Lack of awareness of your pregnancy = lack of discriminating against you for being pregnant.

  45. JustaTech*

    Question about pregnancy and job searching:
    If I’m trying to get pregnant and I’m generally happy with my job, would it be a bad idea to start job searching? If you change jobs while pregnant, are there issues with getting maternity leave if you haven’t been at the new job for a full year? Or do most technical industry companies just sort of shrug and give full leave anyway?

    1. Sloanicota*

      Yes, you will likely not qualify for maternity leave if you have been at your new job for less than a year – but if you’re not happy with your current job, I’d say you should still go for it, with your eyes open. I know too many friends who put off career or other life goals because they thought they’d get pregnant quickly … but then it ended up taking longer than they thought and if they’d made the switch when they first wanted to they actually would’ve been fine with maternity leave. If you do get pregnant right away you don’t have to take the new job, particularly if their benefits wouldn’t suit you.

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      I can’t answer the leave question as I am not in the US and we have different rules, but I would stay where you are for a bit if you are generally happy. There are a number of medical appointments that happen when you are pregnant, and these can go up in number if your pregnancy is complicated (I had twins, so a lot of extra ultrasounds). Being a known quantity can give you the flexibility to manage work around these appointments, where being a new person may make it harder.

    3. PostalMixup*

      I interview for my current job while six months pregnant, and started at eight months. I was in my position for five weeks before my maternity leave started. My company does provide full leave for new employees, so that wasn’t an issue for me. My old job did not have any paid leave, just unpaid FMLA, and I was very not happy, so I was pretty motivated to be out. Personally, if you haven’t started trying yet, I wouldn’t factor a possible future pregnancy of undetermined timing into that equation. If it’s time to move on, start looking.

    4. Texas Lawyer in Tech*

      I switched jobs while pregnant in 2019 (from one law firm to another) and I decided that I would just have to be upfront and disclose the pregnancy so that I could negotiate maternity benefits. Not ideal, but I wasn’t going to leave my current job if the new one was going to give me reduced benefits. As it turned out, they gave me full benefits even though I was only at the new job 2 months before I had my baby. At my current job (a FAANG tech company) we had someone join my team while pregnant in 2021 and she also disclosed it so that she could negotiate for full benefits, which they gave her. So not all tech companies will give you full benefits, but I think you can negotiate for them. Worst case is they say no, and you just stay at your current job, right?

    5. MacGillicuddy*

      If you’re generally happy with your job, why would you change jobs now? Being a known entity when you are going on maternity leave is really useful (unless your company has treated people on maternity leave badly in the past).

      It’s beneficial to have coworkers and managers who say things like “JustaTech is really good at that thing” and “JustaTech is the best one to handle Thing 2 and will be back in October.

    6. Purple Cat*

      It is definitely a big risk. Companies aren’t mandated to provide leave if it’s been less than a year. My company did give me leave, and a lot of companies *will* do it, but that is a BIG risk to take. You can definitely start looking, but in this case, I WOULD specifically raise the issue if you get to the offer stage and make sure to negotiate that benefit.

    7. Clisby*

      If you’re in the US, there might not be any paid maternity leave – that will vary by company. Unpaid FMLA requires that you have worked at the employer for 12 months (and there’s also a requirement that you have worked a certain number of hours during that 12 months.)

      If by “give full leave anyway”, you mean give paid leave – I don’t know, but I haven’t heard of companies stepping up to do that. Again, it depends. I’d be more likely to think they’d step up and give unpaid leave to an employee even if FMLA didn’t apply.

      That said, there’s no guarantee of how quickly you might (or might not) become pregnant.

  46. Yupyup*

    Hello commentariat! In need of some search phrase help, please. Husband is desperately seeking a return to TRUE Account Management work, where you manage an existing portfolio of clients to keep their business and grow it. He’s spent the past several years in hard sales, and is a better grower of existing business than he is a getter of new business.

    The problem is, every sales job online is listed as an Account Manager! It’s really difficult to parse out what is sales, and what’s true Account Management. Any tips for trends you’re seeing in how these positions are listed nowadays? Or is the true account manager a dying position?

    1. Bobina*

      Maybe try customer success manager? Relationship manager? They arent quite the same thing but might be closer to what he wants. Those terms might be a bit industry dependent though.

      Fwiw, I do think true account managers are a dying breed. I certainly know in the last big company I worked that had them, they changed the position to include a more sales driven aspect and some of the account managers I worked with really didnt like it (for the same reasons as your husband). It feels like some of what they did has essentially been split into a bunch of different roles so some adapting may be required.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Try client experience, customer success, or inside sales. Also, as someone in account management, I’d lean towards large companies. The majority of my work is selling new products to existing clients with a very, very small element of signing new clients. I don’t have to generate leads or anything like that.

    4. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      Our sales is usually called Business Development (prospecting, getting new customers, converting prospects to signed deals) and Account Manager is people who manage our existing customers once in steady state.

      We also have a bridge group for post-sales onboarding, which has a more operational focus.

  47. Sloanicota*

    Today’s post about writing erotica made me wish all the commenters in writing/publishing could get together (I saw several others post that they are writers who earn at least some of their income by writing) because that is a nutso industry with some messed up norms. Presumably other creative fields are the same; LOTS of unpaid labor and the expectation that you will do it “for the love” or for exposure or whatever. Crappy payment structures similar to freelancing more broadly. I wonder how many of us write for traditional publishers, self publish, or publish their own free fanfiction – I’m guessing a high percentage!

    1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      I do freelance editing work, primarily for romance and erotica! And I’m also self-published. I grew up in the industry (my mom and all her closest friends are writers and/or poets). I’d definitely be interested in something like this :)

    3. Weegie*

      I self-publish. Ironically, I used to work in traditional publishing but can’t get published in it! (I tried, believe me.) Usually someone posts about writing on the weekend open thread, so you’ll find some fellow writers there.

    4. Maryn*

      I’m an erotica author who’s been commercially published, a few books and about twenty-five short stories to anthologies and collections. Many publishers in the genre are very small operations with poor administration (paying royalties late and other contract violations is fairly common, not out of malice or incompetence but because there aren’t enough hours in the day or employees to do the word). A few are notorious for what amounts to Ponzi scheming, publishing new authors and using the proceeds from their books’ sales to pay their other authors who are making trouble because they haven’t been paid royalties they’re owed.

      It’s also common for erotica (and other small) publishers to fail to disclose financial difficulties and fold without warning, the rights to their authors’ books becoming part of their assets. This has happened so often to people I know that I feel lucky to have gotten my rights back before my books’ publisher went under.

      Because I’m old enough not to want or need to start a new career, my plan is to republish the books previously published and my newer work, all self-published. I dread the self-promotion and wish Remington Steele-type arrangements were real.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yeah, to me erotica is a genre that makes a lot of sense for self-publishing. I know a lot of romances are digital-first editions even in traditional publishing … if that was the deal on offer I’d probably prefer to self pub also.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

      Technical writer here… occasional freelance copy editor thinking about taking on more of it to see if I can augment income for earlier retirement from my current full time job.
      Look at me, joining two things in one week… this AND the Cinnamon Toast Alliance. (Or is that just the name for this new discussion group?)

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I think if we have a writers discussion group we should absolutely call it the Cinnamon Toast Alliance.

    6. RagingADHD*

      I’m self published and I freelance, and I think framing the economic challenges of being an author as “crappy pay structures” is extremely odd and misleading.

      It isn’t a “pay structure” at all, because an author (self or trad published) is a business owner selling a product to customers, not an employee being paid for their work.

      It would be like saying the person who owns and runs your local taco truck all by themselves has a “crappy pay structure” when they can’t sell enough tacos.

      Yes, it’s a tough business with very tight profit margins. Making a decision about how much time & effort to spend on marketing and networking vs product creation is tricky.

      Anyone who goes into it with an employee mindset will certainly find the norms to be “messed up” because they have fundamentally misunderstood what they are doing.

      When you look at it compared to the norms of running any other type of small business that provides a nonessential product or service, the norms are pretty much the same, except that there are more people in it with no clue that they are running a business, or what that entails, who therefore are easier prey for unscrupulous and predatory people.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Well, I’m trad pubbed and I think the pay structure is crappy. I don’t know a lot about self pubbing so fair enough there. In trad pub, a publisher buys a book and your next book, and goes ahead and sells the former at least – but they break out the advance into so many payments that you may not receive the last one until one year after the book comes out, or the paperback release. Also the way the royalty number is determined is often subjective. Either way, you are expected to do a lot of the work upfront and be paid later. They also work out the royalties in a complicated way and only provide quarterly or semiannual accounting of what was sold. There’s a weird power dynamic where it’s your product (you wrote it yourself before they ever came upon it) but you still feel like a supplicant. [I’m not saying trad pub isn’t worth pursuing or that self-pubbing is different, I consider them two totally different hings – but I am saying the “creative/art” element of the industry creates messed up norms around professionals expecting to be paid what they’re worth.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Doing product development and marketing are long-term investment activities that no business owner gets paid for by the hour.

          In dealing with your publisher, you are a small business owner who has a single large distributor, and as such you have very little negotiating power – like people who produce products for WalMart. They control your access to the market, and therefore can often dictate contract terms to their own advantage. People who sell direct to the public (indiepub) have more negotiating power to set their own prices, but less market penetration / awareness, so on the whole it’s a wash. It comes down to which set of hassles you’re prepared to deal with.

          Yes, the ability of creatives to set their own terms is very limited, and that can do a number on their self-esteem. I would argue that

          a) what your product is worth = what you can sell it for.
          b) your abstract or spiritual worth as an artist or as a person is and should not be dependent on your product’s selling price.
          c) the way I learned to make that mental separation — and they way I recommend to others — is to learn more about running a small business and the relationships among the players. For example, I became a much better and more confident actor when I started producing theater. Same with writing — indie pubbing was really good for my attitude and self esteem as an artist because it helped me separate the business side from the creative side in my own mind.

          I think that creative work is special, artists’ talents are special, and it takes a very special type of tenacity and resilience to get artistic work out in front of the public at all. But I don’t think that the business of selling artistic products is special or different from making and selling anything else. Maybe that’s why it’s hard for creatives to get our heads around. It’s very prosaic.

    8. Jinni*

      I’m a full-time novelist and writer (now all self-published). I used to write erotica and contemporary romance. Now I write legal thrillers. I’ve got 26 books under my belt. I used to write essays and dabble here and there, but that unpaid labor or earning based upon views has kept me from getting back into that arena. (It was different 25 years ago when I started).

  48. Anon for this One*

    Weird sich at work yesterday. Me (female), my boss (male), and a peer colleague (male) had a zoom meeting with a consultant team of 4 women, who we have had a professional relationship with for more than a year on a long term project, and one senior man called in on a thorny technical issue; he was on his phone. During the zoom, someone was screen sharing, and someone said “technical advisor, you probably can’t see that; your phone screen might be too small”. Technical advisor chuckled and said, “that wouldn’t be the first time I’ve heard that”. In the moment I was like, huh…? Then when the meeting ended I texted my two colleagues and asked if they had also interpreted that as an inappropriate “joke”. They both had and we had a text interchange about who to report it to or how to follow up. It ended with me calling the most senior of the consultant women to say we were offended. Meanwhile, my male boss texted me with something about he’s heard worse. I am so mad at my boss for lack of leadership! Even if he didn’t realize in the moment that it was a joke about dick pix, shouldn’t HE, as the most senior client representative, be willing to make the complaint?!?! I had to, because I’m the woman?? And then the poor woman consultant had to clean up the mess from HER managing principal?! AITA???

    1. Sloanicota*

      Ooh I’ll be interested to see the response here. To me this is a kind of mild/obscure joke that I wouldn’t report it, but there’s certainly enough zero tolerance folks out there that would back your play. Your boss should have supported you if you said you were uncomfortable though.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        It’s not zero tolerance, it’s death by a thousand papercuts. How many mild jokes are people supposed to just ignore?

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      NTA. It sounds like you had an internal exchange and enough people were uncomfortable that you felt it needed to be reported. Your boss should have supported you in that. That’s his job.

      Women in IT are expected to put up with so much BS, and I really hope men in leadership positions in any industry that is historically male dominated are reading this and realizing you need to advocate for your teams. The bro culture is not cute, and it pushes out talented people because they end up getting sick of it. Even if it’s “just a joke”, no one should have to deal with it at work. And when you’re dealing with it constantly it’s really draining.

    3. Can't think of a funny name*

      What did the consultant woman say when you told her you were offended?

    4. Littorally*

      Honestly this doesn’t seem so blatantly NSFW as to be worth the kind of fuss you’re trying to stir up, and it also seems like you’re reading your boss’ response in a particularly bad way, unless there’s additional context you haven’t provided here.

      So my ruling is – INFO
      – It sounds like your boss was not a part of the conversation between you and the two colleagues about how you interpreted the comment. Was he? Or was his text to you entirely separate?
      – Did you actually ask your boss to make the complaint? Your question doesn’t actually mention what action items you put in front of him.
      – Where are you getting the part about ‘I had to [make the complaint], because I’m the woman’? Is that something your boss said to you, or an inference of your own?
      – Have you had previous problems with your boss ignoring low-key sexist behavior at work? Your interpretation of his response would make more sense if it was part of a pattern of behavior, but standalone…. less so.
      – “The poor woman consultant had to clean up the mess from HER managing principal” — I’m not sure how this links into the rest of the scenario. If I’m filling in the blanks correctly, the technical advisor was a manager of the consultants — and that rank issue would have a lot to do with the ability of you, your boss, or the consultants to intervene on his (yes, very mild) potentially inappropriate joke.

      1. anon for this one*

        I am confused about the “fuss I am trying to stir up” comment. It is not customary in our industry to make jokes about penis size in meetings. I do find it inappropriately sexual and offensive, and my boss and peer colleague agreed it was that. Then they left it to me to “do something”, which I did. My question to the commentariat is, would you expect your boss to have done something more than he did? (which was nothing)

      1. anon for this one*

        According to the communications afterward, each of the 7 other people on the zoom interpreted as a sexual innuendo.

    6. eisa*

      So … thinking about this logically … you are saying Male Technical Advisor made a joke about himself as the _recipient_ of dick pics, right (x) ? Is that any more terrible/sexist then if Female Consultant had said the same ?
      (x) the only way this makes sense .. the sender says to the recipient : mine is so big, I bet your screen is too small to display it.

      In fact when I read your story my mind did not go to dick pics at all, phone screen notwithstanding – I thought the guy had made a self-deprecating joke about oftem hearing about his too-small, ahem, equipment. This actually seems more likely to me.

      So what this guy said was either “I am gay” or (jokingly) “People tell me my wiener is small”. Is either of this an offensive sexist statement against women ?

      That said, even mildly off-colour jokes are obviously unprofessional in mixed company, by which I mean “mixed between companies” as in your example … but still, not worth much more than an eyeroll.

      1. anon for this one*

        No, we thought it was a reference to his penis being too big to take a good photo of. Gross, I know.

        1. SnappinTerrapin*

          I know y’all all interpreted it the same way, but another data point – if you’re interested – that wouldn’t have been my first or second interpretation. After thinking about it, the NSFW interpretation you were asked about would be my second – and I strain to get there.

          My first reading would be that this isn’t the first time he has heard comments about using a less than optimal device to participate in a meeting.

          That doesn’t mean you’re wrong. I’m just one reader, and I don’t know him or the context of prior communications. which could make a world of difference.

          If he meant it the way you took it, he would definitely be in the wrong, so I’m not defending THAT.

          1. Esmeralda*

            See, it doesn’t matter if it’s a joke about a big penis or a small penis. Penis jokes are inappropriate and gross in this context. Jokes of a sexual nature are inappropriate in this context.

            The joker is senior too, so that makes it worse.

            Anon, the biggest a$$hole is the guy making the penis joke, but your boss isn’t far behind.

            1. SnappinTerrapin*

              I agree. If he’s the one who sexualized the conversation, he should be fired. Did he?

              “You brought the wrong tool to do this job.”
              “Not the first time I heard that.”

              That’s a closer case, but still subject to being taken literally instead of figuratively.

              There are some facts missing from the account. The context we don’t have determine whether he is likely to be sexualizing the conversation. Maybe he has a history of making innuendoes and other misbehavior. That’s a pretty significant omission from the account, and could explain why all the women in the call agreed on the interpretation.

              Lacking that context, it would be surprising for Anon’s boss to jump to the same conclusion.

    7. Anon for this*

      Just to answer your question directly, yes, I would have expected my boss to do more than that. Telling the advisor that he made everyone uncomfortable is actually a kindness in my opinion – I’d definitely want to know if I was making everyone uncomfortable before it became a pattern and everyone resented me. And if he wouldn’t want to know – or wouldn’t care – then he needs to be told it’s a problem as a warning where the line is.

      I work in a very male dominated field and I used to think I should give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But in my experience so far, what ends up happening when you do that is, the ones who are just oblivious go on doing what they’re doing because they’re oblivious. And the ones who were pushing to see what they could get away with escalate.

      Like others have said, I wouldn’t go straight to HR over this but I would document it in case it became a pattern. And yeah, having the most senior person say, Hey, that’s not the culture here, would also be entirely appropriate imo. It also probably would be taken more seriously coming from another man, unfortunately. “I’ve heard worse” is dismissive and to me says he doesn’t really understand the impact these comments have on a person over time. The damage the stress does to your physical and mental health, and the missed job opportunities, can add up to a lot of $$$ over time. It isn’t just hurt feelings.

      Obviously if he’s been supportive before perhaps this was an off day. If not, I would definitely be thinking, Okay, now I can’t go to him with issues like this in the future. Not to be too negative! Maybe it will never come up again… one can hope.

      1. Anon for this*

        Okay, I’m still angry about this for you. So I just wanted to add an example of what I think the boss could have said that would have still been supportive, even if he didn’t think a complaint should be made for actually more valid reasons, like not having the political capital or he actually knows the person who said it very well and knows he’s probably mortified now, etc:

        “I hear you and I agree it was inappropriate. At this point, I think making a complaint may jeopardize the project because Advisor is so senior and [whatever reason]. However, I’m going to document this in case it becomes a pattern. And in our next meeting, I will be paying better attention so I can push back in the moment if he makes any more inappropriate comments.”

        “I’ve heard worse” to me says “I won’t care until it’s too late and you’ve already been significantly impacted.” Sigh.

        Okay, I’m done!

      2. SnappinTerrapin*

        This is entirely reasonable, and I agree. That would have been a helpful response by your boss, even with the ambiguity of the situation.

        It is a kindness to let someone know that they are being perceived as disrespectful, so they have an opportunity to adjust their behavior.

        Especially if he had no intention of making an innuendo, it would be helpful to know to be even more careful about possible ambiguity.

  49. confused whale*

    Should I agree to help some family start a business?

    I’m a software developer, graduated in 2020 so still pretty new to the whole world of work, and I’m just generally disenchanted with the whole system already. I don’t think I’m built for the 9-5, but I grew up poor and have a chronic illness, so I’ve been scared to rock the boat. Figured I could just push through until my husband gets traction in his career, since he loves working and is okay supporting me once he can with his chosen profession (pilot, takes a while to get experienced to make money).
    This week some of my husband’s family took me to lunch and gave me a business pitch for how they want to build a better platform for online school, one that’s geared for interdisciplinary learning that’s a little less linear. They’re both educators and really good at it, but they don’t know anything about building a system like this. They asked me to help because I’ve got a degree in computer science, though I’m hardly an expert.
    Here’s my list of pros: I’m super interested in education, I’d love to work on a project that I think could actually help people, it might be a really good career pivot point.
    Here’s my list of cons: I have a chronic illness and a full-time job, need to keep the full-time job to support my husband who is trying to get started in is career and keep health insurance, so I don’t really have a lot of bandwidth. I also have never had an entrepreneurial bone in my body, I hate selling things and boring legal paperwork, and don’t know if I’d end up having to do stuff like that.

    If anyone has any experience with anything similar to this or any thoughts, it would help me as I figure out and weigh my options.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I’d say no but consult your husband on the best script to preserve family relations. Ultimately it’s your call because of your health. I also wouldn’t want to work for my in-laws.

    2. EMP*

      That sounds like a huge project for someone with, honestly, very little real world experience. People who aren’t in software don’t know how much work it takes to write good software, and your family might not understand that this is not just a full time job but a full time job *for multiple people* to start up a platform like that (source: I’m a software engineer). Also, it sounds like from what you wrote here that they have no plans to finance this like a start up. Who would be paying for your work here? Who would own the IP? Some people would enjoy doing something like this as a passion project but this doesn’t sound like *your* passion project.

      Without knowing your in laws, I would take an ‘it’s not you it’s me’ tack. Say you love their idea, but given your inexperience and your current full time job, you couldn’t do it justice. Tell them you might be interesting in coming on part time if they are able to get financing for their start up (hopefully this reminds them that their idea is one that typically you pay people to execute). If it’s true, say that you’ve thought about it but your experience is actually in Y and they would need someone who can do Z.

    3. Bobina*

      Ooof. Up until you got to the cons I would have said it could be a good thing to do as a resume builder with potential to make some bonus money *if* you set the right boundaries and expectations early on.

      Given that you already have a full time job and a chronic illness though? I’d say gently refuse. Maaaaybe offer to do a short term consulting gig where you work through with them what they might need to do or give them enough background to be able to go off and hire someone themselves, but even that might be a lot of work for not any money.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, I would not do this. There are a lot of hurdles to overcome, and relationships that you probably do NOT want to mess up.

    5. confused whale*

      Thanks for the inputs. One thing to note is that we’re talking cousin-in-laws, so the distance does serve to make the situation a little less touchy than it would be if it was immediate family. They also told me to consider how I’d willing to help and how much I would charge, so it’s not like they’re expecting me to do this for free. Unfortunately, I think your guy’s advice is sound, even taking that into account. I really wish I could help, as I’m unhappy with my current job/career trajectory and want them to succeed, but I don’t really have the skillset or time to do much for them. I’ll have to talk with them about the suggestions from EMP and Bobina, doing some consulting/very part-time work to help them find the technical support they need/help them understand some of the technical concepts

      1. Momma Bear*

        Yeah, I’d gracefully bow out. You don’t even have to justify it beyond you can’t take it on but thanks for thinking of you. Projects like that are a FT (or FT+) job in themselves and you need to preserve your health, sanity, and medical insurance.

    6. Ginger Pet Lady*

      That would be a hard no from me.
      Why?
      They came to you – someone who knows nothing about building educational software – instead of hiring a professional who does know about it. And there’s likely a reason for that. They think you’ll do it for free/cheap. So you’re starting out with a situation where extended family wants to exploit you for a discount.
      They also have experience as educators. But do they have experience running a company? Are they going to hire professionals to do that? Or will they rope Aunt Edna into doing the accounting and second cousin Bobby’s girlfriend who is always on her phone to do marketing/social media?
      Do they even have funding to pay ANYONE?
      You think that’s going to get better or worse as it goes along?

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Bingo.
        Every time anyone I know has asked me for writing/editing help, it’s because they think they won’t have to pay me. Or it’s a small thing that won’t take up much of my time, and then it’s something huge like a book manuscript.

        You said your current job and your chronic illness mean you don’t have the bandwidth for this. You answered your own question, OP.

    7. ArtK*

      Yikes! That’s a massive undertaking. I would nope out of that one as gracefully as I could and I have 40 years in enterprise software development. The fact that it’s family is just icing on the cake.

      That said, if you feel obligated to do something talk to them about bringing on someone with experience in developing educational software. I’d be looking at someone with 10+ years in the field including some management experience. Writing code is only part of the job; this is going to take multiple developers and the first person there is going to have to act as the Director of Engineering.

    8. Doctors Whom*

      Run, do not walk.

      Ed tech is a ridiculously complicated space in which to make any money. (Yes, I have direct experience.)

      A computer science degree doesn’t qualify you to do what they are asking for. Them being educators does not qualify them for what they are trying to do. (Good educators absolutely are a requirement for being involved in such an endeavor but this is as we say a necessary but not sufficient condition.)

      Advise them to talk to someone who has actually been successful in ed tech about this.

    9. Doctors Whom*

      Oh, and I also encourage you to consider other work. You’re really early career to just be like “oh naw, I’m done” and it takes a Very Long Time to get a pilot into the range of salary that will let you opt out.

      You have an in-demand skill set. There’s no reason to stay where you are if you’ve got 2 years under your belt and have good accomplishments to show for it.

      if you want to get into ed tech (and helping kids learn is an incredible mission), then explore *going to work for an established ed tech company.* That way you could put your skills to use and grow your knowledge of the mission space.

  50. Cimorene*

    My partner is trying to figure out how to translate their skills/career into a different sector. The issue is that they want to get out of the government/gov contractor/clearance required type of jobs. Their background has been entirely in military/government/government contracting and their current role is technically called Systems Engineer although they do not have an engineer background (and hate the systems engineering part of their role). They ended up in current role due to military background and experience in intelligence and acquisitions. I would say their skill set is most closely related to project/program management. But I don’t think they know how to translate what they do into private sector jobs, and the jobs they keep getting interviews for are project mgt jobs that pay 1/2 of what they make now. Any ideas? Other types of roles they should apply for? Should they work with a career coach (not sure how to find a good one)? Any ideas welcome!

    1. cubone*

      big fan of career coaching! Start with determining if you do/don’t have a budget, then shape the main questions they have for them (it sounds pretty clear from here – how do I transfer into a different sector and translate my skills? – but maybe there are more questions behind or around that one). One place to look is if your state/province/country has a Career Counselor/Advisor/Development Practitioner registration board. Another option (often free or cheaper) is local employment centres, sometimes they have specific programs for people switching careers. I would also definitely search online for “military” + “Career Coach” – that’s an area of specialization in the field for sure and there may even be some more accessible coaching programs for former service people.

      Related to transferable skills: I can’t for the life of me remember where I read this, but I saw a fantastic tip for people looking to change fields.
      1) Find an example job postings (or a few) of the kinds of jobs you’re interested in
      2) make a table with the skills/tasks/responsibilities from the posting in rows one by one down the first column
      3) title the second column “similar things I’ve done” and go piece by piece, adding any possible thing you’ve done that sounds similar or analogous
      4) make the 3rd column something like “things I need to learn” and add anything you’re truly missing
      5) 4th column: “ways to get experience” and make a plan for learning or understanding those #3 missing skills (take a class, info interview, youtube videos, whatever)

    2. swingline*

      Not sure if this is too closely related to your partner’s current work, but a lot of universities are looking for people to work in export control/research security compliance and it sounds like your partner might have a good background to jump into that kind of work. Lots of new regulations have been coming out for universities to tighten up their research security and export controls, especially for federal contracts and grants, so it’s a growing field.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      Maybe higher level operations? Operations is kind of like project management, especially if he has some CI experience. I know you said he wants to get out of clearance work, but as an intermediate step he might consider a gov-agency private sector job (like aerospace, etc) where clearance is such a big asset that they might be more willing to consider him for stretch positions.

    4. Momma Bear*

      Pay is probably going to be a factor as many PMs don’t make as much as SW Engineers, so I think one thing you collectively should look at is minimum salary for your budget. That said, would they want to go into local government vs fed? Work for a large school district? Work for a non-profit? Their skills might lean PM but what about technical writing/editing?

      (Also, love your username.)

      1. Doctors Whom*

        Perhaps consider the kinds of programs your partner works on and what are analogous kinds of products in the private sector and map the PM skills into that.

        Automotive?
        Medical devices?
        Robotics?

        Also consider the requirements to sit for the PMP exam – does he have them based on his job? Could he sit the exam and obtain that certification to make it “make more sense” when people see his resume for a PM job?

        Do you have an R1 university near you that takes in a lot of DoD grants? There are often PM functions related to such things. There are also “business development” functions related to such things that are not “sales jobs” in t he sense you may think of, but do seek to develop partnerships & grants that marry the reseach capabilities at the university with DoD mission needs.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Does your partner have a PMP certification? It’s practically a requirement in private sector project management jobs. If not, I’d start there. I caution that the defense industry pays pretty well relative to other companies, so meeting current salary might be a challenge. (I’ve never worked with a career coach, so no help there, sorry.)

      Good luck to you both.

    6. Kari T*

      A day late replying but hopefully not a $ short (lol)- look at defense contractors. Most have an info systems side, either for clients or in house work, and that would translate well to project management. Has he tried applying to PM roles?

      1. Kari T*

        I really should read more carefully! Since he wants to get away from govt contractor roles, I would look at private sector firms that are adjacent to the field he is in and target their internal systems. A PM role might be less of a stretch in that case. Also ditto the PMP certification rec.

    7. ildrummer*

      The Hired Heroes non-profit does a really good job translating military experience into civilian terminology, connecting you with interview/salary-negotiation/Linked-In memtoring. I highly recommend looking into their (free) services.

    8. Cimorene*

      Thanks everyone for the suggestions and perspective. I will be passing this along to my partner; definitely may looking into getting a PMP certification (they do not have).

  51. Bunny Girl*

    I am part of a support staff team in a job I know I’ll be leaving within the year. There is another support staff member who has causing me grief. She didn’t like me from the minute I walked in the door (literally no idea why) and has been petty, unpleasant, and a bully. She tries to treat me like her secretary and will come up and try to tell me to do things that are her job. I am more than happy to help when she has a big project (after my own work is done) but I’m not doing her scanning and filing for her because that’s her job. She also has just done some off the wall stuff like hiding food I’ve brought for a pot luck or going around and telling people I don’t bake anything from scratch (???). I also have a sneaking suspicion that she bad mouths me to others because others have began to treat me differently as well.

    I have a meeting next week to address this with our supervisor, but I’m not sure how to really go about it. This woman is a bitter, angry human being and I don’t think anything is going to change her attitude. Any advice?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      What do you want to happen? Focus on that. And keep in mind that “Jane needs to be nice to me” is not a reasonable goal. Go for something like “Jane stops telling me to do her work” and “Jane stops doing weird little things to antagonize me, like hiding my food for a potluck.”

      Also, be as factual as possible. Don’t say “she’s mean to me,” say “she assigns me job duties that actually belong to her.”

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Thank you. I don’t really care that she’s mean to me. That’s her problem if she wants to be miserable. I do wish her attitude would improve because she’s unpleasant to be around. But it’s more her acting like I’m her maid that I don’t appreciate it.

      2. Bernice Clifton*

        Yup this. Take out a word doc/blank email and write a list of all the crappy things she has done to get it out of you.

        Then wait for awhile, re-read it and add how each thing effected your work/morale. (Ex, “It was uncomfortable and frustrating to have to tell Jane over and over that it’s not my job to do her scanning and filing, and made me want to avoid her.” “I spent time making a dip to share for our work event and I felt like Jane was really trying to exclude me when she hid my dish.”) I think this strategy will help you realize that these aren’t baseless complaints and you don’t deserve this treatment.

        1. Bunny Girl*

          I’ll be honest – I am not planning to bring up the potluck thing at all. It was so bizarre that I found it hysterical and it became a great happy hour story with some friends. I can’t ever achieve that level of petty so I’m forced to admire it.

          1. ArtK*

            Good for you for leaving that out. Bernice Clifton is right, though, that you need to frame your conversation with your supervisor in terms of how it’s affecting your ability to do your job and, in consequence, how it’s impacting the team and the company. It’s very easy for a weak supervisor to dismiss things as “personality conflicts,” but harder when you can show real business impact.

          2. Reb*

            I dunno about leaving that out. If you’re got absolutely incontrovertible evidence that she did that, I’d raise it. As a manager, that would make me realize that the problem was Jane bullying you, rather than, maybe, Jane being really busy and trying to get someone else to help.

        2. Mockingjay*

          Excellent suggestion. I’d go one further: think about what resolution(s) you want from your boss. Not in terms of discipline for Jane – that’s Boss’s purview, but what will prevent or correct the situation. Ask your boss what situations she will let you handle and when things should be escalated to her.

          “If Jane tries to assign me a task, I can [politely] refuse – ‘sorry Jane, I have a full load today and can’t help.’ Repeated requests will be forwarded to you.”

      3. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

        I would also point out that you are seeing differences in how other people treat you. If that is not due to behavior changes or social gaffes on YOUR part, it could be a work-related result of HER behavior. I would think about this one carefully before you bring it up so you can address anything on the social gaffes side. (ie own it if you have made inappropriate jokes, misgendered someone, etc. Question it if it’s been her doing the same. And putting up boundaries to not do someone else’s job? That’s not a social gaffe.)

    2. Doctors Whom*

      You won’t fix the attitude. Can’t change her innards.

      What you need to focus on is what would fixed behavior look like.

      Prepare to discuss Situation-behavior-impact. “In X situation Jane does Y and it disrupts the work because Z.”

      “To prevent Z from disrupting the work, we need ABC behavior from Jane.”

  52. Too Many Good Choices*

    How do I choose whether to leave a job that I overall like for something new that looks interesting?
    I have a job prospect that fell into my lap recently that is looking pretty promising. However, I’m mentally struggling with the idea of leaving my current job. There’s pros and cons and things that drive me up the wall, but overall it’s a good job with great coworkers and I like it a lot. I wasn’t thinking about leaving, so it’s legitimately a decision between 2 good options.

    What are some questions, things to consider, or other ways to make a decision? Salary, benefits, job description, location, etc are the obvious ones, but what other things can I think about that could help make the right decision?

    1. Sloanicota*

      To me, in a similar role, the deciding factor was my sense of what the next five years at my current job would bring. I didn’t see much opportunity for growth and the things which were bugging me seemed to be increasingly annoying. Even if the new role didn’t work out, it seemed to be leading me in an interesting new direction that would potentially open up more future opportunities (as a fallback, I also believed I could reasonably get a comparable position to my first one if leaving turned out to be a mistake). It was hard to leave the security of a reasonably good situation to venture into the unknown but ultimately I’m glad I took the chance to shake things up.

      1. SansaStark*

        +1000 I recently did the same thing and came to the same conclusion. I miss my old coworkers every single day bc I genuinely liked them as people. But we can together for lunches and happy hours and stuff. In some ways it’s even better because my boss and I can truly be friends now that we don’t have the same constraints.

        Beyond the obvious, I’d also think about where you want to be in a couple years. Does the new place offer something towards that, whatever it is? Are you ready for a big jump or are things maybe less-than-stable in your personal life and you like work being safe right now? Do you have confidence that you’ll figure something out if it isn’t the right move? Is the reputation of the new place good enough in your industry to add some ‘clout’ or whatever the next time you’re looking for a job?

      2. Momma Bear*

        This.

        Also, I looked at things like work/life balance, commute, where the office was located (somewhere to walk and grab lunch or somewhere I was not likely to see the sun).

        You can always apply, see if they bite, and interview them about the aspects of your current job that you like to see if it’s a similar fit.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Here’s the list I used in a similar situation recently! In no particular order:
      Salary
      PTO (not just amount but structure, accrual, etc)
      Benefits
      Management
      Type of work / job description
      Amount of variety (in day to day work)
      Schedule/hours
      Culture fit (my team, other people, bureaucracy, red tape)
      Resources/systems
      My success (ie how I’m doing at current job vs how sure I am I’d do well in new job)
      Advancement

  53. Mika*

    I manage somebody who has a lot of potential to do really well in our company. One area he needs to improve is his grammar/spelling. He makes a lot of basic errors, like the common “your welcome.” I’ve mentioned it to him before and he agrees it is not his strong suit. It’s review time, and I would like to provide him a resource he can use to improve. There are things that spellcheck will miss, and we use text a lot, so spellcheck can’t always catch everything. He’s going to start a pretty high visibility position soon, and I want him to present himself in the best light possible.

    1. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

      This is basically what Grammarly is best at! The free version would probably work well enough, and is easily utilized in email, Word, etc. Grammarly also works on iOS and Android mobile platforms. It just gives you a little alert (similar to the spellcheck red squiggly line) and suggests a change.

  54. In Wrong Job*

    I recently wrote in the the commentariat here about applying for and interviewing for jobs that were okay but that I wasn’t that passionate about.  The general consensus was that it depended on what I wanted and one didn’t have to be passionate about one’s job.

    I was getting further along in my unemployment time and I had savings but at the same time needed a little money to come along in the next couple of months.  I had two job offers.  One fell through and didn’t pan out.

    The second place rushed their process a bit because I had had an offer, but then slowed when I said that offer didn’t work out.  I really connected with the second hiring manager.  

    Anyway, I was hired and I’m a week in. I wonder if I made a mistake.  My manager is great but I barely see them.  I report to them but I’m being trained by someone else in tasks they took from the previous person in this role. I’m doing exactly the same things I had been doing in my last long-term role.  I’m bored and have little enthusiasm for this.  (It’s an assistant role, but I thought it would be more executive assisting which I haven’t done before.)

    So I guess I keep interviewing? It felt like an Amazonian effort to get these offers.  These seemed like the best opportunities I had in the past four months searching. 

    My thoughts:
    1) I want to be passionate about my next role. It’s really imperative for me.
    2) Hiring managers seemed more keen to interview me for roles I have already mastered.  That’s on me for applying, but people didn’t offer me interviews for jobs outside of my experience. How can I make that leap between jobs?  These assisting roles don’t really have a lot of room for growth when you’re in them. A few interviewers even told me that when I asked and then seemed surprised when I would bow out of the process.
    3) Would it be bad to quit this before six months?  I feel that I have to stick it out for a year to close a gap on my resume but in my experience if I feel this way a week in, it doesn’t get better.  

    My low point was discussing when I would be cleaning out the fridge.  That’s another thing. I thought this was a full remote position and was surprised when on my first day they wanted me to report to the office once a week in the beginning.  At least remotely I’d be learning remote office management tools.  But I am physically scanning mail, etc.  It is a hybrid organization but I don’t even remember the word hybrid being mentioned in the description or the interviews.  It was put as, “people have a choice whether they want to come into the office.”  Other people do, but I’m not given a choice because there are some things that still have to be done in the office, even if it’s only a few times a month.  That was the same in my last assisting role that I didn’t have choice. It’s one of the reasons I left my last role.

    After seven years of cleaning fridges and being responsible for making sure the trash gets emptied, I want a role where that’s just not my responsibility anymore.  I can’t say that in an interview but I wish there was a way to figure this out before my first day.  I am so disappointed.  But here I am. 

    1. Sloanicota*

      If it were me, if you’re in a good-enough position right now, I’d try to get through a year at this job and then start job searching when I’m less burned out on it, with the caveat that this time, with the pressure off, I’d only take a role I was truly excited about. In my field this may take six months or a year to find, so in the end I’d have a tidy tenure at my current role. If you were burning through unemployment it’s good that you found something and took it before time ran out; I hope you’re proud of yourself for that! If you’re in a very desirable field where people switch around a lot though, my advice may not apply. If a year in this position seems unthinkable because you hate it my advice may be different, but if it’s just boring but safe and pays for your lifestyle I’d try to shift focus to another element of life that will provide excitement and challenge (hobbies, relationships, maybe moving).

      1. In Wrong Job*

        Thanks for replying! Yes, this was similar advice that I was given interviewing.

        This job just feels wrong. I don’t even want to go in next week. I know intellectually that it’s not terrible, but it feels a lot like my last job so I feel it’s a waste of a year. This is not what I wanted. My gut is telling me to keep looking.

        I’ve been shifting energy to my interests outside of work for years. And those interests are great! But now I need to focus on being happy at work and at least wanting to go there. I can’t erase 40 hours of work in a weekend and I’ve tried. And I need to move my career forward and this role and the roles that people offered me aren’t going to do that.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think you actually have a good reason for leaving this job early. “I was told in interviews I would have a choice as to whether I came into the office, but once I was hired I was told it was required.”

      1. In Wrong Job*

        They say I only have to come in for a few weeks . . . but it’s either me to do these things or the person who has been doing it for the past year until they found someone. Now in the role, not sure what I could say. I’m sure if the Omicron variant spikes, I won’t be required to come in. But that’s not the same thing.

        And if I leave, I’d have to figure out where I would go *to*. Sigh.

    3. Can't think of a funny name*

      For the fridge and trash…you could ask it like a question…”sometimes a person in my role is responsible for trash and the fridge…is that the case here?” And/or…look for larger companies that will most likely have a cleaning crew that comes in.

    4. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Do you really want to be an exec assistant or do have some skills for a non admin type role? My BFF has been and assistant for years and doesn’t make the connection that she has tons of skills that would transfer to other roles, particularly in purchasing or HR as she makes purchases and does approve time sheets and things like that.

      But if you really want an exec assistant role, find a networking group for them and see how you can bridge the gap.

      1. In Wrong Job*

        I actually wanted to get out of admin altogether, but I wasn’t getting any phone screens or interviews for anything other than what I’ve already done. I don’t want to be in HR, either. I’m only interested in the novelty of executive assisting and have a natural rapport with the person I’m assisting. I was hopeful that later on she’d see my potential but that would take longer than I have patience with, honestly.

        I’m actually interested in DEI, but I’m not sure of the training path for that. And I’m concerned about the high burnout as well. But that’s what I’m interested in, though I don’t have any formal training for it.

        So since I needed to pay the bills, I took what people would hire me for.

        1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

          Look into volunteering for DEI initiatives or non profits that serve those communities. But most DEI is in the HR department, so you might want to think about doing that while you get some DEI experience.

  55. Elara*

    If I am looking at getting out of several years of being a part-time librarian and into a full-time job even if that’s in another field, what other fields should I be looking at? A lot of the other branches of governments seem to want me to have a public administration master’s.

    1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      You may have some luck looking into informal education/outreach roles – depending on exactly what sort of librarian you were and where your interests and skill focus are.

    4. Sandan Librarian*

      For what it’s worth, if you want to stay in the library field, law libraries (public and private) seem to have a lot of openings right now (at least that’s what my work inbox tells me), and you may also want to look into medical librarianship (which lets you do some very interesting research and community outreach).

  56. Ozzie*

    This is a bit of a timely question, as I received an email from my director today (well, a good portion of the staff did), that’s quite rambly and much akin to word salad. This isn’t unusual for him – I would say that most of his text-based correspondence is in the same vein. Putting dealing with that aside, at least a bit, in said word salad, he directly calls out that a friend of his, who is incidentally from my home town, may be coming to visit, and he’d love for us to meet. It is impossible to describe how uncomfortable that makes me. I absolutely, positively, do not want to do this. I do not want to spend any time outside of work with my director, let alone a friend of his from my home town who I know nothing about.

    Obviously I know I am not obligated to do so. How on EARTH do I say no given the power dynamics of this, and the fact that this guy just… doesn’t really listen? Or do I just point it out to my supervisor??

    2. t-vex*

      What does he mean by “meet”? If he means at work can’t you just shake hands, and exchange meaningless pleasantries? Or if it’s more of a personal thing, can you just be really busy around that time?

      1. Ozzie*

        I have no idea, it’s really not clear from the email. It sounds both personal and like, “meet the coworkers”. I work fully remotely currently (part of the reason being commute time) so I wouldn’t be on location anyway, which is why I got so immediately uncomfortable. But if it’s like, a not-at-work thing… well… yeah I guess I just have to be VERY unavailable or something?

        2. Sleeping Late Every Day*

          From that, it just sounds like he’s trying to find any staff from friend’s home town, not just you specifically. Maybe he wants to be able to show his friend what talented people that town produced. Maybe it’ll be a brief meet & greet with those people. It doesn’t sound like a situation that should cause anyone to run from at this point.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Is it possible for you to have an “unmovable conflict” at any and all of the times proposed for you to meet? (As an aside, why is he wanting you to meet? Just because you have a shared hometown?)

      1. Ozzie*

        I believe that’s the only reason, yes. I don’t know this person. Didn’t think mentioning my home town to a new boss would be a weird thing to do but there we are.

  57. Rolling Eyes Emoji*

    I think my manager sucks but I’m a new-ish contractor (6+ months) and he’s a long-timer. I would like to apply for other positions in the company, but if the hiring manager for that talks to my current manager, I’m pretty sure I would immediately not be considered for the job. Should I just find a new company.

    Examples of how my current manager isn’t great: limit my access to pretty much everything, even though I sometimes need it to do the work he wants me to do (I’m resourceful enough to be able to figure things out with having the access I’d like to have, but I don’t think he realizes the average person will be non-functional under this circumstance). He’s very specific about the things he wants me to do and gets upset when I go the extra mile (no, seriously), and because of this I’m seeing no point in independently learning about the company’s products or processes. He disappears for weeks, then comes back with an assignment that needs to be done in 2-3 days, and of course provides little context and I have to scramble to gather the background info to effectively do the job. I’ve had SO MUCH downtime and at first tried to keep myself busy by reading company documents and taking online courses that could potentially advance my career, but by now I’ve given up and just started watching Netflix at my desk, and literally no one seems to notice or care (there are other people on the team, but I seem to be discouraged from working with them directly and/or kept out of the group chat, which I’m not sure if it’s because I’m the only contractor or because my manager just sucks).

    1. ecnaseener*

      Why are you so sure your manger would block you from transferring to another position? It doesn’t sound like he’s been especially vindictive or anything.

  58. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    Upon request (and hopefully this is the right thread!) a few of the funny stories from IT that I can post without giving away too much. Feel free to join in with funny stories!

    1. The Dog Laptop. User brings in a company laptop that looks like it’s been slung behind a track excavator for twenty miles in the rain. Beat up ain’t the word. Also wet. While we’re carefully taking it apart to see what on earth is salvageable we ask what happened. “My husky shagged it”. Cue techies backing away from laptop.

    2. The ISP fanatic. Thirty two calls logged in one week from one user demanding that we change our internet service provider to her local ISP. We’re a huge company of over 35,000 people.

    3. The software installer. Someone who maxed out the storage on their work laptop and after investigation we found no less than 50 unapproved software installs on it – ranging from other browsers to Barbie games to fallout new vegas to BitTorrent. Big investigation to figure out how he did that (we have a VERY locked down system) and after it was all removed he logged a complaint about how we’d overstepped our authority by uninstalling his kids software.

    4. And a nice one: The apple slicer. This lady always, always brings a plate of fresh sliced apples and oranges and kiwi fruit to the IT dept when she’s logged a call. We LOVE fruit here. She’s the only one who’s figured out this works way better than doughnuts (which get all into the keyboards and we do not like)

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Nah, our network would have thrown a fit. If someone swaps out a hard drive with one that has a non-company system ID and installation of Windows it shows up like a beacon. Even more so if they use a non-windows OS.

        Our network is incredibly locked down. Absolutely no software is allowed except if installed by IT. The investigation did find a few holes in our Active Directory permissions that we patched though (users should not have admin rights to their machines)

    2. Rosie*

      We had one doused laptop come into our department that has since been dubbed “the Merlot laptop” for exactly the reasons you think. (It was an accident, and hardware was covered by accidental damage warranty). I believe my colleague did manage to retrieve the data off the hard drive, possibly with the help of one of the expensive data recovery services.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Never had a wine damaged one – I take it it’s sticky when dried? Have tried to remove the remains of a UK doughnut (very different to USA ones) from a drive bay once and that ended up going to data recovery too.

        To this day I have no idea how a jam doughnut got inside the case..

        1. Rosie*

          Now I’m curious – what is a UK doughnut like and how is it different from a US one? As a US-ian, there are such a variety of US doughnuts (or “donuts”), from yeast-risen glazed, to cake donuts (no yeast, denser), to solid varieties — not the torus shape — with jam or custard inside. And of course any type could have frosting or icing on it.

          1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

            They are very bread like, incredibly crumbly, covered in sugar. There’s literally no way to eat them that doesn’t involve a mess.

    3. GoryDetails*

      Those are awesome; still cackling over the husky one. And the sliced-apples customer would have been very welcome in some of my old jobs!

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Absolutely adore her! She’s so nice and polite, has never once lost her temper and is one of the very few to give positive feedback about the IT department. We rarely get compliments for our work.

    4. The Prettiest Curse*

      I am so glad that my rowdy adolescent dog has never thought of shagging my work computer! And these stories are great, please make them a regular thing.

    5. Elle Woods*

      I remember a coworker of mine who left her work laptop and a flat of Coke in her car’s trunk overnight. Temps were well below freezing that night. She came in the next day with a sticky frozen laptop. The IT department was NOT happy.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Oh my word, I’ve seen the mess a can of pop can leave in a freezer and…on a laptop? Ewww

    7. Observer*

      #4 Is nice.

      #3 Is just eye rolly. You always have to wonder what goes on in these people’s heads.

      #2 – ISP. Why? What did she think was going to happen if you changed ISP?

      1. JustaTech*

        Re #3: My in laws had a front desk employee who was convinced her husband was cheating on her, so she installed a key logger on *her* work computer and then left him (not an employee) alone at her computer in the hopes that he would log in to his email so she could get his password.

    8. Esmeralda*

      I love you Keymaster ;)

      OMG the dog laptop. And the Barbie games.

      Thank you. I needed this!

  59. Excited Law Student*

    Hi everyone, I’m in my first year of law school. I’m applying to summer positions but…I just can’t get any. Nearly everyone I know already has a position, and I’ve applied to several positions – about 30, as I did 10-15 in December, and then 15-20 over the past couple months while I’ve also been in school for my second semester. Does anyone in the legal field have any tips for cover letters for law students? I’m mostly applying to law clerk positions, internships, externships, and judicial clerkships.

    1. CTT*

      Are the law clerk positions in firms? If so, how targeted are your cover letters? I’m in BigLaw and do summer associate recruiting, and one thing that always makes me groan is when I see someone say something like “I’m very interested in your firm’s work in Intellectual Property,” because while my firm does that, everyone who practices in that area is in the LA office, but you’re applying to the Denver office, where there are no IP lawyers. It’s something that five minutes of research would have turned up, and when people make a mistake like that, it says to me that they either don’t care and are spamming everyone with the same cover letter or that they don’t understand how an office works (the latter may be unfair if you’ve never had much exposure to a professional job, but that’s also its own data point we take into account – it’s always a plus when someone has had a job before because there won’t be as steep a learning curve than with someone who has never worked before).

      Also, given the number of positions you’ve applied for with no result, I really think you need to talk to your school’s career center. They may not be perfect, but a law school career center is more targeted to this process and should know what works with firms/courts in their footprint.

      1. Excited Law Student*

        I am applying to larger, medium, and smaller firms, and basically anything I can see that does catch my attention since I’m not sure what kind of law I want to practice when I graduate. It’s my first office job, and I’m a first-gen student, so it would be my first legal job outside of an internship I did in undergrad. That’s really helpful to know – I had no idea that firms could work like that.

        I have been working with my school’s career center and nothing’s panned out, but I’m hopeful that I can always improve my cover letter or resume. Thank you so much for your advice!

        1. CTT*

          I should clarify that it’s perfectly okay not to have prior work experience and that the vast majority we hire don’t, but it’s always a plus when someone does, but I’ve encountered students who don’t emphasize it in their resume because they worry it’s not law-related. So no worries that you don’t, but I wanted to mention it in case you fell into that category!

          Have you had the career center look at your cover letter/resume/done a mock interview, or are you using them as a conduit for applying?

    2. Rain in Spain*

      Americorps VISTA positions are a nice way to get summer experience that’s not biglaw, if you’re open to that! They have specific roles that are geared toward law students.

    3. OtterB*

      My daughter finished law school a few years ago. She had trouble finding work for the summer after her 1L year. She wanted to do something with public interest law, and there was a person at the law school who coordinated that kind of internship and helped her find something. I don’t remember details any more; it might have been an unpaid internship that she got course credit for, which may or may not work for you. The internship coordinator focused on jobs for people who were currently in school, separate from the career center, which focused on the long term things. But different schools will work differently.

    4. Casper Lives*

      Most of the positions you’re talking about have a “law school prestige” and GPA / class rank requirement. Realistically, are you attending a tier 1 school? How are your grades? Do you have any other work experience?

      Other avenues: are there any professors you vibes with? Go to their office hours, they might have a lead or recommend you. Can you afford to work for free? It’s not fair but having a law firm on your resume as an intern is better than a blank space. Is there an area of law you’re focused on? Try to go to a chapter meeting and network.

      Law is a very old school networking above all for your first legal position, IME. I stood out at law school by not having a parent or grandparent who was a lawyer. I had office work experience in college. I had an extended family friend (I’d never met) who practiced in the area I was interested in, so I got my foot in the door and worked to prove I was a good choice. It’s just really hard unless you know someone somehow. I’m sorry.

    5. Jinni*

      I went to a school where BigLaw summers were all done through OCC, so there were no cover letters…

      Have you considered working for a professor at your school doing research? No cover letter needed, mostly a resume and a conversation?

  60. Eldritch Office Worker*

    Dealing with a lack of body diversity in the workplace?

    I’m a size 18 in an office full of size 4s. Seriously I’ve never worked someone where it’s so uniformly very slim women and athletic men – most even say they lost weight during the pandemic (I….did not). My office also has a really weird food culture. We often order lunch, there’s a lot of free food around, a lot of people consider it a big perk – but our CEO in particular is really shamey about food and makes a lot of comments about unhealthy foods or food quantity. We just talk about food a lot in really uncomfortable ways. I’m trying to challenge the culture in the ways I can but I also don’t want to center myself in a health conversation for personal reasons. Also me and the literal only other person with any kind of average-large sized bodies are in the non-public facing roles. Which almost certainly isn’t intentional but it adds to this pointed feeling of what we want people representing the company to look like.

    I’m also disabled so I feel like I stand out visually a lot. I’m someone who is generally comfortable in my skin but as time goes on the comments and the perceived differences are just getting to me. Has anyone dealt with anything similar? I know I just need to get over it to some extent but solidarity and mental strategies would help – even just commiseration. I’m just feeling it this week.

    1. June*

      I know the feeling. I’m a size 18 as well and while most people aren’t a size 4 in my office, they’re probably 8-12 and when we go out to eat they always make a point to say that they’re stuffed and need to bring their entrees back to the office. It’s hard, and it’s tiring when you have someone willing to point out how “unhealthy” every little thing is.

      1. body neutrality*

        I’m a size 8/10 and work with some people who are plus size (I’m guessing over size 18, but I am not sure). I refuse to play into the critical body talk for any size of any body at work so I do not talk about myself nor anyone else that way, but I do sometimes talk about how I exercise (but more like, “I ran this morning” vs. “I ran and I feel great and you should too!”) if it comes up naturally in the conversation. We took work pictures recently and they kept commenting on how their chin would look in the picture, how they needed to be photoshopped, and how I could tuck my shirt in because I exercise.
        I don’t respond or reciprocate with negative or positive body talk but it’s uncomfortable. How would you recommend approaching this?

        1. June*

          I’m not the Head Fat Person so I can’t speak for everyone, but my personal opinion is that there’s very little you are going to be able to do to stop these people from talking about themselves. They seem like they’re in a state of cognitive dissonance about who they are and what they want, because on the one hand it’s uncomfortable being fat, but on the other hand they see you, someone who is Not Fat, living your life as a thin person doing the things they know in the back of their heads they should be doing if they want to lose weight. I’ve been there too, not to the point where I was commenting on other people’s bodies, but I felt personally irked when I was watching people making better choices but felt sort of trapped in my habit patterns and unable to make them myself (I used to be a size 22 and I’m losing weight).

          At this point your options seem to be to try and change the conversation with a very light tone, like “Pam, you can tuck your shirt in if you want to, there’s nothing wrong with any of our bodies” or “Jill, I try to be body neutral, so I don’t see my body as any better or worse than anyone else’s, it just is.” Another thing you can do (if you’re in a position to) is to just flat-out say that comments about your body make you uncomfortable, or that them putting themselves down makes you uncomfortable. But honestly, as far as “magic words” go, there really aren’t any that you’re going to be able to say to these kinds of people. They’re going to be stuck until they get themselves loose.

    2. Alice*

      No advice, but a lot of fellow feeling.
      It’s very ungracious of me, but sometimes when I am feeling especially sensitive about it, I think (but of course would never say) “hey, come back in twenty years and we’ll let’s see if you are still a size 4 with no disabilities who hikes every weekend.” But hey, maybe they will be, and more power to them.

  61. Victoria, Please*

    In my job we keep track of participation in a lot of events and programs. We’ve always just used Excel. I’m wondering if MS Access would be worth investigating, as using Excel leads to a lot of human error, for example Victoria Pls vs Victoria Please being entered. Or, is Access just as prone to that and we simply need to be more systematic in the use of Excel? My purpose is to be able to pull reports: People of this and that category participated in this and that program.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      The only way to keep folks from mis-entering data in access is to know what data they /should/ be entering and then restrict it. So if you had a list of folks who had registered, for example, you could populate the form to only allow those names entered into the who-attended form. But you’d have to design it that way – anything that allows open typing instead of pick from a list is going to have data entry inconsistencies. And even with a field restriction, you’d need folks who registered to enter every thing correctly. Also, that sort of thing can be done in excel too, though it’s a little more manual.
      That said, access makes pulling reports easier, if there’s a lot of cross section data sets. So if you have a consistent set of people, and a consistent set of data that belongs to those people, you could set up a table for that, set up different tables for events, and then have a table that tracks who went to what events. Once the forms are set up, adding new people or new events is pretty trivial and creating a form that lets you say who went to what is also pretty easy – but again, there’s a ton of front loading work to do creating forms and structure. Excel lets you free type a lot more easily, but lends itself to more inconsistent data sets and formatting because of it.

    2. Six for the Truth*

      No, the learning curve for Access is steep and the support for it isn’t great. In recent years, it’s been sort of backgrounded relative to other Microsoft tools like PowerAutomate and PowerBI.

      I would look into those, first, if you are not a coder and want to beef up your Microsoft Office data management capabilities to get better reports, dashboards, and things of that nature.

    3. OtterB*

      We have similar needs. The advantage to something like MS Access over Excel is the ability to mix and match data in multiple ways. If you don’t have repeat attendees, or not many, then it may not matter. For us, we had people who attended multiple courses over the years and at some point switched role from attendee to speaker/mentor, and that gets complicated in Excel. It was much easier to have a table of people that included gender and race/ethnicity data, and a table of attendees at different courses/workshops, etc.

      I agree Access is hard to learn. We used FileMaker for a while, as I recall. (I’m no longer working in that area.)

      Also agree with Admin of Sys about the hazards of free typing. Most of our attendees are graduate students or faculty members, and we usually ask for their institution. Do you *know* how many ways people can abbreviate or misspell University of California, Berkeley?

      1. Jinni*

        Or call it Cal. I’d never heard of it referred that way before I moved to California.

    4. Observer*

      Access will definitely be better than excel – IF you get someone who has a clue to set it up for you. You can do a lot of things with a database, which Access is, that are not possible or that are very difficult in a spreadsheet. But someone who knows something about database design is really necessary.

  62. June*

    Has anyone had someone reach out to do a “reverse” reference on a bad boss? Essentially a colleague of mine said that an old friend of hers is hiring for a position, my old boss has applied, and she wants to know if she can give my contact info to the friend, because my old boss would be managing several people who are young professionals the way I was when she managed me.

    The only problem is that she was NOT a good boss and I don’t think that’s improved in two years. She’s someone who will fall all over herself to make it seem like she’s a good leader, she’ll talk about work life balance til she’s blue in the face, go for “leadership seminars” and internal awards, and then integrate exactly none of that guidance. She refused to give me stretch assignments, told me that I should put a minimum of 55 hours in “to keep up the impression that you want this job” even if I had to do busy work, and refused to let me actually be unavailable when I was on PTO. I could write a book on how much of a headache she was to work with, but you get the gist, and I’m not sure what to say if asked.

    1. Bobina*

      I mean, I would say yes and tell them this? Isnt that the point of a reference, to be able to find out how someone *actually* performs rather than what they say?

      1. June*

        My main concern is that word would get back to her that I threw her under the bus. We have a very tight-knit network here and everybody knows everybody.

        1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

          That is definitely something to weigh. As Alison often says, it’s in a reference-checker’s best interests to keep sources and specific comments confidential. And you can always tell the person that you will only speak to them if they can commit to keeping your comments in confidence.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yes, and it was a dream come true. My horrible old boss applied for a job in a related organization, and one of the hiring committee knew me (and suspected old boss would be a bad fit) so she gave me a call. I just stuck to the facts. They were bad, bad facts. Can you not trust this person to keep your input confidential?

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        I do sometimes fantasise about being asked to give a peer reference for my former workplace bully. But since I now live a different country, and have blocked this person in as many ways as I can, this isn’t likely…

    3. Can't think of a funny name*

      Can you just say, “I do not feel comfortable being a reference.” And hopefully they read between the lines!

    4. Purple Cat*

      Because you think she’s a bad boss is exactly why you SHOULD talk to your colleague’s friend. Keep it factual, keep it professional, but absolutely share your experiences. It’s likely that this company is looking for a back-door reference check because they have concerns about your former boss. Or just because it’s good practice to take advantage of a “small network” and get as much information as possible before making a decision. You’re not going out of your way to badmouth your former boss, and calling up potential hiring managers out of the blue – that would be uncalled for. But being honest is doing every newcomer to your industry a favor. You can always couch it with “This was 2 years ago, I’m not familiar with her most recent work”.

      1. June*

        I realize that, but I also have to weigh it against the risk to myself that it could get back to her. I’ve only been in my current position for 6 months (I was laid off and took some time for myself and the job search was long), so if for some reason something should happen here, I would need her as a reference.

  63. Alliesaurus*

    I’m having some physical issues I think are related to a recent illness but am having problems getting any real diagnosis from a GP (the joys of being a woman and not fitting into BMI ideals). Has anyone had success talking to their HR department for accommodations even without a dr’s note?

    My biggest problem is having to park quite a ways from our building since all the close spots that aren’t reserved fill up fast by coworkers who arrive earlier than I do, and it’s making me lightheaded/sick/tired by the time I get to the office door. My hope is to possibly get a disabled placard soon, but that’s dependent on a medical office.

    Any scripts or advice anyone can offer? Thank you in advance!

    1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      Admittedly, I work in a government role, so we are big on formal rules and regulations here. I did not have any success in getting accommodations until I had a doctor’s note. Even when I did, parking adjustments were not considered a “reasonable accomodation” without a placard. Our agency does not have reserved parking spaces for any positions except for very special occasions when a sandwich board is used (e.g. director of the board is on site). I had to wait 2 weeks for my placard to come in the mail, and even then the best HR could offer was suggesting I try to arrive earlier so that I could park closer to my office until I received the placard to park in an accessible space.

      1. Alliesaurus*

        I’m not in government, but that’s what I’m afraid of happening. :/ Almost don’t even want to try because I’m afraid I’ll just look lazy asking.

    2. Anonymous healthcare person*

      It’s probably worth talking to your manager and/or HR and/or union to see if something informal could be put in place in advance of getting documentation for formal accommodations. If your manager isn’t great, start with HR; if they’re not great, maybe ask general questions about how accommodations work in general rather than getting specific about your concerns. Even if informal routes aren’t possible, these chats would also provide you with info about what would be required to get accommodations. – a brief note from the doctor? A more lengthy form of some kind? Could it be done by a physiotherapist or other registered health provider instead of a doctor? (This last likely depends on local laws where you are). I also wonder if parking is covered by workplace accommodations rules as strictly speaking it is not about your work performance? Again HR should be able to tell you that.

      Good luck! I hope you find a doctor that works better for you. You could also see if your current doctor might be willing to write a note for you for work (or for the parking permit office) based on current symptoms you are reporting, regardless of the reason, if you really emphasize how the problems are affecting you at work/in your life. Good luck!

      1. Alliesaurus*

        Good points, thank you! I haven’t really interacted with HR at this job yet, but maybe starting a “what do I need to provide” conversation might open doors on its own.

        I appreciate the insights and ideas!

  64. BlueCanoe*

    Newish AAM reader here. I’m hoping others might have experience they can share about how fragrance-free policies are enforced. (Hopefully this post will make sense.. I’m dealing with some non-functional brain cells from secondhand perfume exposure..)

    I and others at the office are having some health problems due to strong perfume use in the building. Management tried asking everyone to eliminate or reduce perfume use, but the smells continued and yesterday were worse than ever. We’ve discussed air purifiers, etc. but I don’t know of any air purifier that could combat this (it’s very strong..). We’d like to ask about a fragrance or perfume free policy, but one of the objections to such a policy is no one here is sure how to enforce one (or perhaps how to write a policy that is enforceable?)

    So my question: how do other places write a fragrance policy and, most importantly, how to enforce it if necessary?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      First… are you sure it’s perfume and not candles or air fresheners? Second, are there specific offenders? I think you won’t get super far unless specific people are spoken to.

      1. Qwerty*

        This + also check cleaning products like the disinfectant wipes that people use on their desks. There’s a section of our office that feels like its drowning in perfume and it turned out to be someone who sanitized frequently + another person using way too much air freshener in the bathroom. Both smells ended up clinging to people in those spaces and traveling with them like a perfume.

        1. BlueCanoe*

          Makes sense about the “clinging” smells. Any tips for distinguishing perfume/cologne/body spray from air fresheners or cleaning products? Or investigating the source of a smell?
          I thought I recognized the most problematic fragrance as a particular brand of perfume but after reading these posts I’m questioning my initial assessment.

          1. JustaTech*

            Another thing to consider is your air handling/HVAC system. It’s possible that it is sucking in smells from somewhere else and pumping them into your space.
            My work has a long history of weird smells, but in general they’re outside smells (lawnmower, smokers) that get sucked into the building. There’s nothing to do about the lawnmower, but we were able to ask the smokers to move away from the air intake.

      2. BlueCanoe*

        Yes, we’re pretty sure it’s a perfume and I think someone has an idea who the special offender(s) is/are. I agree that we’re unlikely to get anywhere without speaking to individual people, I think it’s just a matter of figuring out how. (Management seems to think they can’t do that or maybe they don’t know how to do it.)

        For context, I’m in an area where people value individual freedom and people tend to be too polite for their own good. As much as I love and value many aspects of my culture, people are often reluctant to address problems with individual people, especially without pre-determined guidelines or rules to cite.

        1. BlueCanoe*

          Update: I’m rethinking whether it is a perfume – it sure smells like one, but I could be wrong.
          Still trying to figure out how to address the situation with whoever is using it.

          1. WellRed*

            The thing is, if it’s a specific individual wearing too much Opium you usually know who it is because that’s where the smell is. It may linger a bit after they leave a space but it shouldn’t be clinging to the air, so to speak.

    2. Bernice Clifton*

      From my experience as an Office Manager – you are going to have to be VERY specific in your memo to include anything scented. Because every work has that person who says, “You said no *perfume*. This is essential oils/body splash/pumpkin cinnamon vanilla body lotion that I NEED for my dry skin/a scented candle that’s not even lit!”

      1. BlueCanoe*

        Thanks! Always is that one person that finds some loophole. And artificial pumpkin cinnamon anything is one of the worst for me :/

        On a related note, do you find that saying *no* fragrance products (include specifics) is more effective than saying *limited* fragrance products (include specifics)?
        I’m wondering if there is that person who says “oh, but I only applied a little bit, I can hardly smell it myself” without realizing that everyone’s sense of smell is different and without understanding that a “little bit” to someone who’s used to it can still bother people who are more sensitive?

        1. Bernice Clifton*

          If it were me, I would say no fragrance, period, because one person’s light scent is another one’s migraine, unfortunately.

        2. Two Cents*

          ‘None’ is always easier to enforce than any variant of ‘some’. Be as all inclusive as you possible can, including asking for fragrance-free cleaning products. If there are people who feel that they simply cannot come to work without wearing perfume, you need a very clear cut policy to point to.

          1. BlueCanoe*

            I definitely hope they’ll look into fragrance-free cleaning products too… and fragrance-free handsoap for the bathrooms.
            Aside from being very clear about what products are included in the policy, is there any language you can put in the policy to make it easier to enforce? I know our dress code states that if anyone violates the dress code, they may be sent home to change. Can a fragrance policy be added to a dress code? Or implemented and enforced some other way?

    3. Raboot*

      If your problem is one specific person/smell then going for a full “fragrance free” policy will inconvenience people who aren’t hurting you while likely not having any effect on the culprit who is, after all, already ignoring directives. As Alison has often said, blanket policies are not a good solution for problems with individuals.

      1. BlueCanoe*

        True. My problem was with one particular source though my understanding is that there are other people having problems with other culprits.
        I think theoretically it could be addressed with each person but I wonder at what point there are enough culprits that it makes more sense to address it with a group policy. Or is it better to address it individually even if you have to talk to half the people in the group?
        (I’m pretty new to the world of office work so still learning – hence all the questions haha)

  65. Happy to be Moving On*

    I’d written a while back about how no matter what I did, my boss and I could not get along. To elaborate, I am also the only other woman that works in this office besides my boss. I currently work in a government agency in a rather narrow field. It was getting to the point where I was bringing my stress home and causing issues in my home life. In the mornings, I would literally pull in to work, see her vehicle, and my stomach would drop because I never knew what I would be walking into that day. I was recently offered a full time work from home position with benefits. I’m taking a small pay cut, but as it’s a work from home position, it’s a small concession to make. I accepted the offer and start at the end of the month. My boss was quite surprised at my announcement. She then made a joke that I would be making my own going away certificate. She has a tendency to make a lot of off color comments and make the office an uncomfortable place to work. I’m happy that I’ll be leaving that toxic environment behind, but I’ll miss my coworkers.

      1. Happy to be Moving On*

        Thank you all! I gave it 2.5 years of it not getting any better. I felt like I was being pulled away more and more from what I was initially hired to do and increasingly being assigned tasks/duties that were not in my job description. I do work in an office where we have customers and have regular interaction with them, and I was not doing very much of that aspect of my job. My spouse was getting increasingly fed up with the frustration I was bringing home from work. I could go on, but for the sake of keeping it short, I’ll stop there. I’m really excited about this new role, as I love to help people overall.

  66. Out & About*

    Give me your best unreasonable client stories. Suffering this week and need to commiserate lol.

    1. Bernice Clifton*

      I worked for a financial services firm where most of our clients had retirement/investments with us from their present or past employer, and people who were married had their spouse come with them for meetings, understandably.

      For whatever reason, the most belligerent, rude and unreasonably demanding clients were always a spouse of the plan participant, not the actual participant. It was so bizarre.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Demanding a higher up supervisor and refusing to even list their issue, insisting it would not be solvable by lowly me at the front desk of the computer offices and would be a waste of time to even tell me.
      Waiting 30+ min for my supervisor to finish teaching a lab.
      My supervisor pressing 1 button on their laptop in silence.
      The utter look of shame on the foolish man’s face as he thanked us and walked away.

      (Unfortunately that man is not alone in accidentally hitting the wifi button on the laptop and disabling internet. I’m still confused why that button isn’t well hidden in a menu instead of on the keyboards….)

    3. Momma Bear*

      Always beware freelancing because they give you projects they do not want. I had a 200+ page frankendoc that I was asked to update and review. My first red flag was that I needed to find an old copy of Word because what I had was incompatible and the client did not want to upgrade. Then began the review process which was more like a game of telephone. I’d pass the file back to my client, who passed it onto theirs (contract) and every time it came back, there was a different set of comments from a different reviewer. They did not always follow their own guidelines. Sometimes comments contradicted each other, too, just for fun. I would fix the headers one way only to have to undo them again. And somewhere along the line there were elevenbillion section breaks, so doing anything to the headers/footers was a nightmare. I spent hours going through the headers/footers and thought I was safe only to have the client point out that on page 165….drove me to tears, honestly.

      Eventually everyone got fed up, the client ghosted me, and I got paid a few months later when I sent them a reminder that they agreed to pay my invoices in 30 days.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I once had a client hire me to edit a manuscript he’d written as a lead magnet for his small business.

      When I got the MS, it turned out to consist entirely of copy-pasted text from other people’s blog posts – some of them very well known motivational speakers. The kind that don’t just have a lawyer, they have their own legal department. I discovered this by pasting a couple of suspiciously familiar sentences into google, which returned whole sections that matched. When I ran a plagiarism checker, it was like a 95% match to various sources.

      When I explained that this isn’t an “editing” job, it’s a full rewrite to digest and repackage the basic ideas into a non-plagiarized form, he wanted to schedule a conference call with his business partner. The 2 of them spent the entire call pitching me on what great, ethical guys they are, and how awesome and above board their business is, while I occasionally managed to get a word in edgewise about “…but copyright, but lawyers, but plagiarism…”

      They still wanted to move forward, so I sent a revised quote for the actual writing. It was a LOT more.

      First they sent a very hostile message refusing my quote. Then they sent me a taunting message about how they found someone on Fiverr who would do the job for a quarter of the price in half the time.

      A month later they tried to hire me again because the Fiverr guy was worse than useless, and tried to re-negotiate my price. Naturally, I declined.

      So they started sending me angry, nasty, abusive messages about how unprofessional I was, “arrogant entitled bitch,” kind of stuff, and that they’d make sure I regretted insulting them and trying to rip them off.

      I blocked them, reported them to the job platform, and tried to put it out of my mind.

      For years I still got Linkedin requests from them — presumably because I was in their contacts and it tries to auto connect. Eventually I figured out how to block them there, too.

      Fun times.

  67. Trivia Newton-John*

    I have been trying to take the next step up in my career into a supervisory/office manager role (I currently work as an assistant and have been the de-facto office administrator/go-to-person for all things “We don’t know how to do this, give it to Trivia Newton-John, she’ll know what to do”). No room for growth in my current firm.

    I have an interview this afternoon that I am really unsure about – much bigger firm, but for a lateral role, and for a different practice group than what I have experience in. The HR director there was my OA at my current job and she knows/supports my management goals. She’s aware that the role she’s pushing me to interview for this afternoon is not management but feels that it would position me for roles IF they open up.

    IF.

    I do not want to go to another firm with the hope that one day, maybe someday, something might open for me , however nothing is promised but I languish in another assistant role until then. (And the partners I work for would want someone in that role long term, right?)

    Or, maybe I should really consider it because I might be able to transfer to another role in a year or two? I don’t know. I feel like it’s pointless.

    Thoughts?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Can you probe more about the growth potential? Is this a “we promote from within whenever possible and that happens often” situation or a “sure, you could maybe replace this one particular person whenever they leave” situation?

      Or – does that distinction even matter to you? Sounds like staying in an assistant role might just be a dealbreaker.

      1. Trivia Newton-John*

        Well, the HR person who did the phone screen with me said that there is room for advancement in that there’s a “floor supervisor” role that you can do for 2 years in addition to your regular job (the floor supervisory is a 2 year appointment, you get a stipend for helping and then when your stint is up someone else on the floor does it). My old boss is like “You never know, things open up all the time and you’d at least already be working within the firm and could transfer internally”

    2. Eether, Either*

      If you are sure that by staying where you are has no opportunity for growth and the lateral move to another firm has the possibility of growth, I would go to the new firm. And, a different practice group might offer more interesting work and present different options. And, you know someone there. Taking a guess here, but if you are a legal assistant/secretary, I would consider looking for an in-house position. I’ve been working in house for 16+ years and while the job is essentially the same, the chance to make the job my own has been amazing. And, there are other departments you might be able to transition to and work your way up. Good Luck!!

  68. Hotdog not dog*

    We just got a new grand boss a few weeks ago. Seems like a nice guy. We’re in one of those industries that requires a mandatory 2 week absence, and my manager is currently on his. (It’s a male dominated industry and there is only one woman other than me on our team.) Yesterday she and I received an email from grand boss to please address an issue asap. On further investigation, we discovered that one of our other (male) colleagues had been asked to handle it about a month ago by our boss, but when the manure hit the ventilation equipment he told GB that “the girls” had dropped the ball. My brain to mouth filter died of old age decades ago and I told GB the unvarnished truth, that we hadn’t worked on it because it was assigned to Dwight, neither of us are Dwight’s assistant, and also we are not “the girls”, we are adult professionals.
    My female colleague feels that I should walk it back because she thinks it will give our new GB the impression that we’re difficult women and put our manager (who we like) in a bad spot.
    I think if anyone has egg on his face here it’s Dwight. He’s been trying to position himself as the heir apparent, which has backfired on him before.
    Do I try to smooth things over? I don’t care if Dwight gets hung out to dry, or if anyone thinks I’m a difficult woman, but I also don’t want to make things harder for my manager or my colleague. I think GB is smart enough to figure out the lay of the land, but we really don’t know him, so there’s a chance I could have put a target on our backs.
    I know that realistically our work should not be judged together, but having 2 women on one team is still sadly a novelty. It doesn’t help that we are about the same age (in our 50s) and have a slight resemblance to each other, so we’re usually treated as a single unit. We’ve been friends and colleagues for years, so I respect her feelings but disagree that going along to get along is the right choice here.

    1. Soup of the Day*

      I would not walk it back. First of all, your comment was justified! Second of all, if it was received badly, walking it back will only draw more attention to it. I would just do my best to be warm in your other interactions so GB doesn’t think you’re a prickly person. But honestly, it doesn’t even seem like that harsh of a comment to me.

    2. Miss Ames*

      I think it depends on your delivery of the message to GB. If your tone was calm, and you were factual and professional in the delivery, it sounds to me like what you said was OK and setting the record straight.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Agree with the others, no need to soften the message. Your response contained the facts that are important for GB to know when considering how to proceed. More than that, it underscores to GB that Dwight refers to his colleagues in a pejorative way and expects others to clean up his mess. I hope your GB does something about that!

    4. Gnome*

      Your reply, you are willing to live with. If it impacts her reputation then there are bigger problems. Like if Dwight makes a comment does Joe’s reputation get impacted??

      I say, stand by it. Especially if you were factual-tone in delivery.

    5. Hotdog not dog*

      Thanks, all! I’m sure I sounded annoyed when I spoke with GB, because I was- but I also think I sounded professional and matter of fact.
      Today’s update is that GB has asked me to handle a different project that had originally been given to Dwight with the comment, “it needs to be done quickly and correctly” so I’m getting the impression that maybe Dwight has outed himself as an idiot. (I don’t think it’s a trap, but this project is one I can do in my sleep so even if it is meant as one it won’t catch me.)

  69. Commuter*

    Hi all – have you ever dealt with a direct report coming into work with visible hickeys? We’re not in a particularly conservative environment, but our office serves as a resource for employees during high stress or delicate situations. My direct report has been with me for a little over a year and has had visible hickeys at least 5 times in the past 5 months and I haven’t said anything so far. If anything, I think it would be a kindness to let her know that it’s noticeable but I’m honestly a little blown away that she hasn’t figured that out herself. This IS her first office job, but it feels so common sense.

    1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      I used to supervise employees in a para-professional role (still in college) and we did have a few things like this – hickeys, graphic makeouts with SOs in the building lobby, etc.

      There’s definitely ways to play it, and it may be best to take the return-awkward-to-sender approach. With hickeys I liked approaching the employee in private and expressing concern about their injury/wound: “Oh, that looks painful! Do you need some ointment or a bandage? Here, let’s go get the first aid kit and you can head to the bathroom to clean it up.” Sometimes you can also play it as “Oh no, looks like something stung you! Did it happen here? Facilities needs to know about any wasp nests so we can get them treated ASAP.”

      I think pointing it out would be a kindness. And if it doesn’t stop the hickeys entirely, it should at least start prompting the use of scarves/high necks/or concealing makeup.

      1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

        Try not to get hung up on this being common sense – especially if this is her first office job. Young professionals genuinely don’t consider these things until someone points out that they aren’t actually getting away with it like they usually think they are.

      2. Littorally*

        Honestly, that seems like an absurd approach. You don’t need to go into this whole performance to gently let someone know that they might want to go heavier with the concealer.

      3. Everything Bagel*

        Honestly, this is just too over-the-top. I actually have a skin condition and if someone at work went on like this to me, I would not appreciate it. It’s like you’re forcing her to tell you what it is and shaming her into covering it up. Don’t do this, whether it looks like a hickey or something else.

      4. Nancy*

        No, don’t do this.

        It could easily be a skin issue. Eczema on the neck can look like a hickey. This happens to me, it’s not fun, and drawing attention like this is not helpful.

        Leave her be.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      Why are you so sure they’re hickeys? I’ve had multiple skin reactions to things that look /exactly/ like my neck is having some fun make out sessions, which was absolutely not what was going on.
      I think it’d be inappropriate to comment either way, but if you think that clients or fellow workers will be thinking badly of her because of them, you could frame it entirely as a separate from the actual cause – by which I mean say that you’d noticed some skin irritation on her neck, and that folks may think they’re hickeys and be throwing inappropriate value judgments her way, so she may want to consider a scarf or covering it with foundation or something.

    3. Gracely*

      I would tread carefully–it could be an eczema flare up or something else that isn’t actually a hickey.

      I guess I’m also wondering how having one actually impedes her work?

    4. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

      This reminds me: I went back to college in my 30’s, and was assigned a group project with a very sweet 19 year old dude. The day we met to go over our initial reading, he said, “(pathetic cough) sorry, I didn’t feel well last night and I did not do any of the reading.”

      I looked at him, and immediately noticed the truly incredible collection of hickeys on his neck.

      I felt absolutely geriatric in that moment.

    5. Littorally*

      What would be considered common sense is highly subjective, and generally not worth getting into a tizzy over. Whether or not you think this person ought to know to cover up the evidence of their…. shall we say…. leisure activities, the point of the matter is that either she doesn’t know she should, or she doesn’t know how to do it effectively.

      If you really are confident that these are hickeys and not a skin condition, you can pull her aside straightforwardly and say something like, “Hey, this is a somewhat delicate matter, but I’ve noticed that a few times now, you’ve come to work with visible bruising and marks around your collar. I’m not making any comment on what you do on your own time, as that’s strictly your personal business, but a professional appearance does call for covering those up. If a high collar isn’t comfortable to wear due to the weather, you can use some concealer and foundation to do so.” And then let that be the end of it.

    6. Camellia*

      I’m curious – would we have the same question and same answers if direct report was male?

      1. RagingADHD*

        About half the answers so far are “mind your own business,” so I hope we’d get those either way.

      2. SnappinTerrapin*

        I imagine so. It would be pretty shocking for a man in a white collar job to show his “love marks.”

        There are some jobs where it wouldn’t be commented on for either a man or a woman, but an office job with a “professional” image to present would find it an issue for either.

    7. Purple Cat*

      How does having hickeys (if they are that) impact their work performance?
      If it doesn’t, then you have your answer.
      I can’t imagine bringing that up with somebody because I can’t imagine how it’s relevant.

      1. WellRed*

        Eh, i I could see it either way. Lots of things don’t affect actual job performance but don’t look great. Failure to meet certain dress norms for example.

  70. Miss Ames*

    I am seeking stories re: people from varied generations working together (i.e. Baby Boomers, Gen X, Millenial, Gen Z), and/or suggestions on how to collaborate with people from generations different than your own.

    1. Ozzie*

      My mom (a boomer) works closely with a coworker who is my age (millennial). The generational difference is far, far more often a source of amusement, before anything else. Often times, if there’s a reference made that her coworker doesn’t get, she’ll ask me if I know what she’s talking about, or if it IS generational. They have an excellent working relationship as well as loosely social (they don’t hang out, but will briefly text if something is amusing/relevant to something that happened at work). I gave suggestions to her coworker for gift ideas for her husband (through my mom), because we had things in common.

      I used to work with someone who was 10 years older than me, and she was my closest work friend at this job – way closer than people closer in age to me. We talked about families, relationships, politics, etc. Age wasn’t even a consideration – we talked about life experiences. We also worked together exceedingly well because we respected one another and got along so well.

      In both instances here though, the key was a base of respect for the person REGARDLESS of age. Getting along made working together way easier no matter what.

      1. AllTheBirds*

        Best work pal’s and my age difference at OldJob? 30 years. We still text regularly.

    2. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

      The most powerful tool in this situation is to encourage people to lift up other people’s ideas. When others feel recognized by someone outside of their immediate generational demographic, they are more likely to soften their disposition and be open to collaboration. Depending on your exact circumstance, you may do something like, in a brainstorming session, have everyone make a note about something they like or appreciated about each different idea. Keeping the tone complimentary instead of critical will set the expectation that all people involved are working towards success, and all ideas are valid.

      In reality, there are very specific generational norms that you make come across, especially when it comes to communication: Gen Z might not utilize email, Boomers may not utilize Slack in an organic way, etc. You can circumvent that by talking about communication practices at the start, IE: “email will be our central communication tool, so it will be imperative that people read and respond to emails throughout the day”, or asking what people’s familiarity is with Slack/Discord/etc., and see if anyone may need help understanding it.

    3. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

      I’m at the tail end of Boomer range and one of the older ones in my office. My current team is mostly mid 30s and we do get interns who are young 20s. The key is being respectful of everyone and giving opportunities for everyone to speak out. It also helps that I’m very senior not just in age but in time at the company compared to my coworkers. I make myself a welcoming source of information and sharing of the tribal knowledge as well as my extensive network of people I know who can help you get things done. I’ve never run across any generational preferences in communication styles. We use a full MS stack here and for the most part, it’s all email/Teams. The only culture fit issue I ever saw was one woman (who worked as a contractor at old job and I had to request that the Controller end her contract) who got a position at New Job and insisted on printing all her emails. Like….she did NOT last! Engage everyone, uplift everyone, be respectful.

    4. Momma Bear*

      One of my best friends took me under her wing when I was in my 20s and she was in her 50s. She did not treat me like an idiot, just someone who hadn’t learned a particular thing yet. I appreciated that. Conversely, when I picked up a skill that she was having trouble with, I was patient with her and brought her up to speed. We worked very well together. I also used to work with 20 something guys who were good people but needed some nudging in professionalism. They were fun, they reminded me how to have fun, and I reminded them that maybe you should keep a tie at your desk for when the Big Boss drops by. People of other generations are not alien beings. I think if you generally treat people with respect you will receive it.

    5. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’m a couple of years from retirement and some of my co-workers are college interns or just out of college. I work with them like colleagues – ask them questions when I have questions, help them when they ask me questions, treat them like equal professionals. Age shouldn’t enter into it. Sure, I have some experience that they don’t have, but they have some more recent training that I don’t have. We are peers and we work as a team.

    6. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      I’m retired now, but where I worked, the ages ranged from right out of college to 70-ish. I don’t remember it ever being a problem – our lunch groups would include all ages, we all worked pleasantly together, and most of us are still in contact on social media, even ones who left for various reasons. Some of us have become friends with our co-workers’ parents or children, too, whichever are our generation! Is it a real problem in some places? It seems so high-schoolish, like seniors not talking to freshmen. Ugh.

    7. Pointy's in the North Tower*

      My office consists of people from the upper edges of Boomers all the way to a Gen Z. For the most part, every one does their job. There are a couple difficult folks, but that’s just them and in no way related to their age.

    8. Here not there*

      My new industry is young but my most recent past industry was 70% boomers.
      My previous coworkers were boomers and I was very close to them as a millennial. My approach was always empathetic and tailored.
      My generation is typically brought in for innovation and efficiency redesign for this industry. There is a fine line between making people feel involved & heard versus them feeling like your presence represents their current job being obsolete.

    9. allathian*

      One thing I really appreciate about my team is the diversity in age. Our oldest are tail-end Boomers, our youngest are older Gen Z. Our manager’s a Millennial and I’m Gen X. In our team, we value everyone for the skills they bring to the table, regardless of age.

  71. Bored Receptionist*

    For the sake of this question, let’s say I’m the receptionist for my organization’s Llama Grooming Division. Every few months when a Llama Expo comes to town, my work as a receptionist is extremely busy and we’re booked up for weeks with grooming appointments and constantly fielding inquiries, but between these busy seasons the job is extremely slow. Over time I have developed an unofficial, mostly-unspoken agreement with my manager “Amelia” that during slow periods she’ll allow me to discreetly entertain myself with my cellphone, books, drawing pads, personal laptop, etc. even though some of what I’m doing is against our employee handbook.

    My organization did some restructuring and starting next week Amelia is no longer my manager, “Betty” is. I’ve only met Betty once because she works in a different building. Should I have the “hey can I keep entertaining myself during slow periods with XYZ things” talk with Betty? And what should I say?

    2. Bernice Clifton*

      I’ve had this exact conversation, and that’s pretty much what I said. “During slow periods, Amelia allowed to do A, B, and C during slow times at the reception desk since the desk did need to be staffed. Does that work for you if I continue to do that?”

    3. Observer*

      Maybe wait till after the first busy season to have that conversation. Because this way, she’ll know that you really do mean it when you say that it’s for slow season and ONLY for slow season.

  72. LeftAcademia*

    I’d like to support a younger colleague but I am not sure how. We (both female) work in the same tiny department in a male dominated field. I am working part-time as a senior, she is working full-time as a junior. Since she has gotten married two years ago, nobody seems to be taken her seriously anymore with the assumption that she will start a family soon and be gone for a three year parental leave. I have only been there for a year, having started in the 2nd year of my parental leave with no external childcare. Our immediate boss was very accommodating, while the CEO was sceptical during my initial interview. Meanwhile I have gained some respect due to my track record. Nevertheless even our boss makes sometimes inappropriate comments about parenting towards my colleague. We don’t really have a HR department. What do I do?

    1. AllTheBirds*

      Do you call out the inappropriate comments when you hear them?
      I think modeling good/strong behavior is a start.

  73. Internal Applier*

    Long time reader, first time commenter, will try to make this quick. I started my first “career” job in September at a mid-size college as admin staff. I already really don’t want to stay; the work-life balance for this office is bad and I have a lot of problems with my boss (nearly wrote a letter about her- among other things, she drunkenly accused two of my co-workers of having an affair to their faces!). I ended up applying to two positions at the same school, but in other departments, about a month ago. I got a call back from one for a short phone interview on Monday.

    It’s not a large school and the person who oversees the department I’m interviewing for has worked with my current department on events before. I’m reluctant to let my boss know because, while she’s not completely horrid, I think she’d freak out internally and it’d effect how I was treated; her past behavior has backed this up. But I think she could find out if I move past this stage of the process.

    When and how should I tell her? ASAP? Only if I get called for an in-person interview (which would be the next step)?

    Worth noting that my problems are with this position and office and not the school, and for a bunch of reasons I’d actually like to keep working here, meaning this debacle is likely to happen again.

    1. After 33 years ...*

      I’d probably wait until you have a scheduled in-person interview. If admin positions are posted, as at our place, yours and other departments will know there’s a vacancy.
      It’s a small place, and your interviewer has worked with your current department. So, they probably already know your boss and have formed an opinion about them. Unprofessional behaviour gets noticed and remarked on.

  74. yogurt*

    I just want to comment to celebrate! I accepted a job with my state government working for a program I really believe in. Unfortunately my non-profit job has their hooks in me for another 5 weeks (two back-to-back major events coming up) but once it’s over, it’s OVER! I feel so relieved to have a role that feels like a great fit for me with no evenings, weekends, committee meetings, or constant pressure to attend drinks/dinner/indoor events during a PANDEMIC….

    This community is so supportive and have really helped me get through the last three years of pain and suffering at this job until I could make it out. Thank you all for being here. I’m glad this site exists.

    2. Forrest Rhodes*

      Yay, voluptuousfire! Ringing bells, blowing horns, tossing much confetti on your behalf!

    4. voluptuousfire*

      I’m so happy that I finally am able to close this chapter of my employment life. 2021 was rocky and I’m so glad that is behind.

  76. Astoria*

    Does anyone have experience with Employee Resource groups or Ally groups? My large employer encourages us to join their groups. I joined one for a particular ethnic group as an ally but feel awkward about it because I am not at all a member of the ethnic group. Should I just stay on the sidelines?

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Generally, the answer is that you want to make sure your voice isn’t being heard over the voices of the folks who belong to that minority group. You want to focus on amplifying their initiatives. What that means is going to vary a lot depending on how active the group is. If they’re hurting for help and people needing to take more active roles, there’s nothing wrong with volunteering to help fill in the gaps. For example, let’s say they’re looking for volunteers for an event but there’s limited spots. You want to wait to volunteer until it’s clear that all the slots aren’t going to be filled. Or maybe there’s a panel discussion and they’re looking for folks to submit questions. That might look like waiting to submit your question until it’s clear that they don’t have enough. That sort of thing.

    2. Frankie Bergstein*

      I’m in one as an ally — they explicitly welcome allies, and if they didn’t state that, I wouldn’t join. I’d assume it was more of an affinity group. I really, really appreciate their programming as it’s one that’s particularly well-run, information shared through it, and that I get to meet folks in other parts of where I work. I think they’re also important networking opportunities if you’re in a hybrid or virtual workplace.

  77. EZ Like Sunday Morning*

    I’m in all likelihood going to be finished working at my company the week after next. I’m currently interviewing with 4 companies but I doubt I’ll get an actual offer before I’m done at my current place. My question is- will it be an issue? Or is it simply a matter of saying “no” when they ask if they can contact my current employer?

    1. Can't think of a funny name*

      I think it depends on how much the interviewers know about your current company. Do they know your last day is coming up? If not, I don’t think interviewers expect to talk to your current employer b/c it alerts them that you want to leave but if the interviewer knows you don’t work there anymore and you say they can’t contact them, that will look suspicious.

  78. Imaginary Number*

    How do you give someone feedback about something they need to improve on when you yourself either don’t have that skill or aren’t great at it yourself?

    This isn’t something I’m currently dealing with, but is something that has come up in the past. I was having this conversation with some colleagues as we talked about the challenges of people leader roles vs. individual contributor/project management roles.

    There’s situations when the skill is a hard technical skill, like they’re expected to have expertise in a certain software suite to do their job, but are making a lot of errors or requiring a lot of hand-holding. That’s a difficult enough conversation to have, but it’s usually a little bit easier because even if you personally aren’t the expert in that skill, the requirement for the job is usually pretty easy to define. But I find it even harder when talking about a soft skill. Like when you have to give someone feedback on prioritizing their time or communicating when you don’t see yourself as being any stronger in that particular area.

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      I actually think you might be the best person to give feedback on a soft skill if you struggle with it yourself – because you know that it’s hard, you have a list of strategies you’re working on, and most of all you know why it’s important and what you loose by not having it. When you give the feedback, can you be clear and direct with what you need, but also (1) acknowledge that it doesn’t come naturally to everyone and this person isn’t morally lacking because they can’t do XYZ, (2) explicitly explain why you need them to be able to do XYZ to do the job, and what’s at stake if they continue to not do XYZ, and (3) offer them whatever coaching/training/books etc that are helping you get better at XYZ?

  79. Lime Green Slime*

    Anyone have experience where their company offers generous PTO, but it is impossible to use it? I’m the only person in my entire institution that does my job and I have a constant backlog. If I’m not at work, nothing gets done. I want to take more than 1 day off at a time, but backlog would get so, so much worse if I decided to go on a week-long trip or something. We constantly have people getting upset because of how long they have to wait for me to things.

    I know this sounds entitled because some people have no choice but to work all the time. What do you all think I should do if there is no plan in place within the next 6 months to a year to hire another person or somehow manage the workload?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Does your manager have an issue with it? If not, it sounds like better election setting on turnaround times after a vacation may be in order (until some sort of redundancy is in place, which is the better option)

      1. Lime Green Slime*

        The previous person on my position really did not take any vacations other than one day at a time. We had about 6 months of overlap because he had to train me, so I heard it straight from him. This department has only been around for about 3 years.

        He did take one week off once for his wedding before I started. He said that our boss would mention in emails that they were running behind because he took a week off to get married for quite a while after.

        So there really isn’t a plan in place for when I would take off and I don’t want to be thrown under the bus.

    2. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

      I am a new hire (9 months) in a very boring, very mundane area of higher education (example: teapot production curriculum regulation). This is my first job in this area, and I am low-middle on the hierarchy of the department, but I have been working adjacent to the area, or pursing a degree related to the area, for most of the last 15 years.

      I care very, very deeply about the subject manner and, to me, there is so much to the subject that makes me excited. There is constantly changing regulation that allows us to push the framework of our program, allowing it to be more diverse, more equitable, more accessible. This is in line with the greater mission of the institution. There are broader changes that other institutions have implemented that have increased enrollment, increased retention, and increased success of graduates.

      However, everyone in my office is absolutely and completely divested from the subject manner. I am the only one who keeps up with changes in regulation, or studies related to the regulation. I am the only one who attends non-mandatory webinars and trainings. Any time there is a legally mandated shift (“we no longer need to check applicants for other pottery production experience”), my coworkers are confused, and will push back against me. When I learned about a critical error in our national funding, something that will affect 40% of students possibly preventing them from enrolling or attending, and that we have to fix one by one, my coworkers were annoyed because it was going to make their jobs very, very slightly more difficult.

      My question is basically… how do I continue to maintain this disposition (invested, appropriately passionate, engaged) in an office where, from the bottom to the top, nobody really cares?

    3. Just another queer reader*

      I think Alison has written about a similar situation before!

      I think you’ll want to talk to your boss about how to arrange things so that you can take time off [because you have several vacations/ commitments planned already and want to make sure things flow smoothly in your absence].

      And it sounds like you’ll need to have a separate conversation about the workload. Maybe you can set expectations to “please allow 4 weeks for your issue to be addressed” or “due to resources, we can only work on projects with a high ROI, please submit a business case with your request” (our IT and supply chain people do this).

      Good luck – and take that PTO!

    4. ecnaseener*

      Cross-training and documenting how to do your job, sitting down with your boss in advance to come up with a coverage plan. If your boss doesn’t totally stink, they will want at least some of your work to get done while you’re away.

      1. Bertha*

        I hate to say it, but it’s possible the boss might totally stink, if they gave the prior person in this position a hard time for taking a week off.. to get married.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Oof, yes, didn’t see that addition. Still – boss wants work to get done, push for coverage.

    5. Sophie K*

      First off, it’s not entitled to want/need to take time off, especially if it’s an explicit part of your job benefits (but even if it wasn’t, needing a vacation is still not “entitled.”) Time off is important for mental health and work-life balance. It doesn’t matter what your company’s “official” policy for PTO is if you can’t actually use it. And it is not reasonable to expect that you will never take more than one day off at a time, or that you can expect to be guilt-tripped into the next forever if you do.

      It’s probably time to start job searching. I would suggest having a talk with your boss about the workload and backlog, but from what you’ve said, I doubt if it will do much good. They’re clearly aware of the backlog, which sounds like it’s enough to easily justify having a second person in the role, but they haven’t done anything about it.

  80. Anonnie*

    I recently discovered I’ve been making the same mistake on client reports since I began my job last year. It’s not something that would substantively change anything, but it’s going to require a small time commitment from many people in the org to fix. We’re a place where external docs like this are a big deal, so these reports go through 4-5 layers of review, but somehow this mistake slipped through all the cracks and no one ever caught it. We finally found out because a client contacted a senior partner and asked about one report, who alerted my chain of command, who alerted me, and I went back and realized that (1) it was a mistake and (2) I’d done the same thing to *every* report I’ve written, something like 50-75 docs by now. We have a procedure in place for fixing it, and I did everything I could to ensure it was fixed right away, but I’m worrying about how this might affect my boss/higher up’s opinion of me. And how should I address this, beyond fixing the mistake? Should I formally apologize to my boss and/or the higher ups, either in email or at our next meeting?

    1. Soup of the Day*

      Honestly, I think the fact that it’s been wrong on every report actually works in your favor. It’s not like you’ve been careless or inconsistent – you just learned to do it wrong from the start and no one ever caught it. I think acknowledging it in a meeting would be a good move so they know you take your work seriously and that you appreciate the extra work everyone else is doing to fix it, but I wouldn’t grovel over this. It’ll hopefully be a funny story someday!

    2. fueled by coffee*

      1. Yes, fix the mistake.
      2. Yes, I’d email your boss (and maybe the higher-ups, too) to matter-of-factly explain what happened, apologize, and state which steps you’re taking to fix it. Assuming they’re all reasonable people, if 4-5 layers of people have never caught this mistake, AND this has been happening since you started your job (which means it maybe should have been caught and corrected during your training anyway?), I wouldn’t worry too much about their opinion of you — if anything, this just says that when you are alerted to an error, you own up to it and proactively take steps to fix it.

      If your boss or the higher ups are NOT reasonable people, you might want to lay the apology on a little more thickly.

    3. Camellia*

      Not really applicable to your situation, but it reminds of a company where I worked a short contract. One thing that needed to be changed was a report that the company had been generating and sending to a Very Important Federal Government Agency. When I tried to look at past copies of the report, we discovered that, for ten years, the file being sent was empty. Absolutely nothing in it. And no one at Very Important Federal Government Agency had even noticed. Well. Our tax dollars at work, I suppose.

    4. Purple Cat*

      Sounds like the “higher-ups” you’re referring to are your boss’ boss (grandboss?) or similarly higher.
      You don’t need to make a formal apology as “penance for your sins” type thing. Apologize to your boss, acknowledge what the fix is and go about your day. You didn’t make any bigger mistake than the other 5 people that also made the mistake. And you have the benefit of the doubt that at least you’re new – what’s their excuse? Mistakes are part of being new and happen in business all of the time. If ther are any additioal concerns from the “higher-ups” it’s your boss’s job to smooth that over.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

      One additional thing I can think that you might want to do is to document the correct procedure, to publish an update to the training material. Or create it if you didn’t get it in writing when you started. Circulating that can go a long way to let people know you are taking the situation seriously.
      Also useful to document is where/how to check whether the rules and regulations about your process are changing.

  81. CreepyPaper*

    Good grief, I can’t believe I have to type this to ask for advice.

    I’m considered very high risk for covid so since this nonsense started I’ve been hyper, hyper-careful with everything I do. And so far so good, I’ve not caught it.

    I avoid big gatherings. This includes work events. Now bear in mind HR knows about my immunocompromised self, right. It’s on my file, I had the problem when I started working there, I was banned from the office when the pandemic started etc etc. But since January more and more people are going into the office at least three days a week, so we’re more or less back to ‘normal’. I only do two days to minimise my exposure.

    It was flagged by HR that I hadn’t attended the company spring shindig a couple of weeks ago and that I’ve declined the summer gathering in June. They decided to ask if I was having any issues with my co-workers and were ‘concerned’ about how much I had pulled back from not only the bigger events but other smaller informal gatherings too.

    The June gathering I have explained as I am having a major surgery three days before the event, which they’ve graciously said is ‘fine’ (dear lord) but when I explained why I didn’t go to the spring thing they said my response implied that I ‘don’t trust’ my company and somehow also implies that I think, and I quote, ‘we’re all riddled with covid’.

    I explained again that I’m severely immunocompromised, that my manager KNOWS THIS, it’s on my file and I can’t afford to take a risk with my health. I also pointed out that it’s not a requirement to attend work social events, and that several of my colleagues hadn’t attended because of childcare issues. But apparently it’s ‘optics’ and it ‘looks bad’ that someone as senior as me (middle management now, so actually not very) when people of my level don’t attend.

    The next day my manager Zoomed me to ask why there was an email from HR saying that they were going to start the process to put me on a first warning for ‘insubordination’.

    I have notes from my doctors and my manager is absolutely baffled by this attitude from HR. I’m in the UK so I know laws differ but if the fact I don’t want to risk my health by going to mass events leads to more warnings and eventually a firing, would it be worth running this by an employment lawyer? I’ve never had so much as a strike for lateness on my file, and now this? Eesh.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      oh, yuck. Not in the UK, so I’m not sure on how the legal side of things would play out, but if you were in the US, I would 100% be looping in a lawyer of some sort, and send something to HR along the lines of – ‘to clarify, you are stating that I should be putting my health at risk against documented doctors orders because of optics, and are specifically punishing me for avoiding something that is counter to medical advice and puts my health at risk?’ . Basically, confront them in writing. (and make sure you have a documentation trail of everything going on – summarize the situation with your boss in email, keep replies and such, etc)
      Also, if your boss is on your side, i feel like they should be the ones leading the fight against HR – and keep going up the chain if possible. A note from your manager telling HR to back down /should/ carry some weight, and if it doesn’t, see if your boss will loop /their/ boss into it, and escalate on the HR side too. It may just be a specific HR person is the problem.

    2. Brightwanderer*

      Absolutely talk to a lawyer. They should be treading very very lightly with this, given UK regulations. Also that sucks, I’m sorry. I’ve also been on the receiving end of an HR machine that seemed unable to stop its slow roll towards disciplinary action due to absence, despite repeated reminders of my health condition and full support from my managers.

    3. Bernice Clifton*

      Wow. When I started reading I was assuming HR just forgot about your condition but they sure made it clear they don’t care. I am so angry on your behalf.

    4. WellRed*

      I hope your boss put the kibosh on this immediately. In addition to all the covid ridiculousness, what’s up with the insubordination claim? Insubordinate to who? Someone in HR with their panties in an a “ you will respect my authori-tay” twist?

    5. Observer*

      Your Boss is backing you, so I would suspect that you would do well to see a lawyer if it comes to that.

      But, also, you boss is backing you, so why is HR getting THIS worked up about it? It might be worthwhile to figure out the politics here.

    6. Bagpuss*

      Were you /would you be able to speak to your boss and raise your concerns that HR is apparently treating your explanation that you have a valid medical reason for not attending an event as ‘insubordination’?
      If your health issues would meet the criteria for disability then I would be explicit and request that, as a reasonable accommodation under the Equalities Act, you not be required to attend events of this kind.
      It may be worth a chat with ACAS or, if you are a member, your union.
      Check your home insurance – if you have legal cover that may give you an initial consultation with a suitable solicitor

    7. Cordelia*

      I think your manager needs to do a bit more than be baffled, they need to start backing you up with HR. Is it usual in your company for HR to be making the hiring/firing decisions, or are they overstepping? Surely your managers have more say on this.
      If they won’t support you either, then yes, definitely a lawyer. If your condition counts as a disability, this is discrimination under the Equality Act I would think (not a lawyer!.

  82. Yellowjacket #3*

    I would love to hear any and all stories about how you got out of admin/reception/EA work and transitioned to a different career path! Sometimes it feels like these jobs can be so *sticky* and hard to advance from.

    1. Soup of the Day*

      I took over managing the website and social media for my org as part of my “admin” duties and leveraged that into a marketing writer job somewhere else. If you can’t manage the website or social media fully, maybe you could contribute to it in some way if that’s something you’re interested in! But I realize this will not work for every company.

    2. Everything Bagel*

      I went back to college as an adult, going nights and weekends to get my bachelor degree. While still working as an admin and going to school, I transferred to an entry level position (not admin) at my company in another department, which was related to the degree I was pursuing. I think it was a little bit of luck changing jobs at that time. I had already been at the company for a few years, so that helped get a foot in the door at the new job, transitioning out of the admin role.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      It was a pretty long process, but I started planning and coordinating events, discovered that I liked it, found a job that was 50% admin and 50% events and then got my current job, which is roughly 70% events and 30% communications (and 0% admin, yay!)
      So my advice is to develop your skills in an area that interests you (if you’re not sure what interests you, try volunteering for different projects at your current job), then try to get as much experience in that area as you can. And there are definitely roles that have an admin component but aren’t 100% admin that you can use as a stepping stone. On smaller teams, you can work over several different areas – for example, my current team has someone who started out doing 100% admin, but is now doing HR tasks and helping out with social media too.
      Best of luck!

  83. Decidedly Me*

    When people apply for a position with my company, there is a spot in the application to put questions they may have. We have a lot of people ask if we provide training, which feels really odd. Are there a lot of jobs that don’t provide any sort of training that it makes sense to ask this? They are literally asking if any sort of training is provided, not what training is like or the process or things like that. These are full time roles, not gig work. I can’t imagine people being able to do these jobs without training.

    1. Soup of the Day*

      Could they be referring to training on the types of software or programs you specified using in the job description? I can see people wondering if a company would provide specifically, say, Salesforce training if using Salesforce is part of the job.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I’m guessing they’re talking about skills training — if you’re hiring an experienced llama groomer, you’ll show them stuff like where to find the tools and how your appointment system works, but you don’t plan on teaching them how to groom llamas.

    3. AnonAnon*

      I mean, it could be that applicants were told by others they should “always ask at least one question to show interest in the job,” and what you end up with is odd, not very well thought out questions like “Do you provide training?”

    4. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

      Yes, some companies expect you to walk in already knowing all the software they use in the way that they use it. Some companies throw a procedures manual at you and expect you to figure out your first project on the fly.
      These are not necessarily places you want to work, and your interviewees may be feeling you out on that.

    5. Here not there*

      There’s different forms of training. Some don’t consider “learning on the job” as training. Some companies will give a basic overview and expect you to learn the rest through trial and error. Some people thrive in this environment others find it to be impossible.

  84. Sloanicota*

    When working on a long document like a report, how do you handle the issue of everyone wanting the “final” review? In my freelance work, I produced a long document and handed it over to the client six months ago, but we have had multiple reviewers come back with comments and suggestions beyond what I believed when I accepted the contract (which has now elapsed, and I have received final payment: I should be done). Some were stakeholders who were interviewed, who obviously need to confirm they agree with the way their story was depicted before the report is public. Others are editors, curriculum people, and the org department chair. The issue is that everyone involved wants the “last” review, and has not read the interim versions, meaning they are making bigger-than-expected edits … but any changes they make have now not been reviewed and approved by other stakeholders. The designers of the report also want the “last” review and no more text changes made after that point, a stage we haven’t even reached yet, so I’m really getting bummed about ever being done with this thing. Every time I also am expected to check over the new edits, as the author of the report, and it’s true I don’t want it to go out wrong since it’s my name on the document. Is there an obvious way to handle this I’m missing?

    1. Anon for this one*

      First, your contract should specify how many rounds of edits are included (or how much you’ll be paid for each additional go-round). Second, it also needs to specify who has the final sign-off. If the department chair decides it’s done, but the curriculum people say “wait, it needs changes,” this would let you say “sorry, but as per my contract, this project is completed.”

    2. Asenath*

      Pick (or agree on with your client) ONE, ideally fairly senior, person to do the final review – and make the process clear to the others – they get one kick at the can, and if they haven’t managed to review it by the deadline you set, they don’t get to play with the final version.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If you come up with magic words I’d like to know too because, although I’m in-house design and not freelance, I’m currently on proof #11 on a 120 pg document, and at this point they are playing the hokey-pokey with commas because some people really feel strongly about commas.

      One thing that has helped over the years is to create a rubric/set of rules for what each round of editors should be looking for or what their area of expertise is (even that doesn’t always work) but if you add ground rules upfront, you can at least point to it and reject changes if you have that authority.

      1. Set the writing style guide — are you using MLA, Chicago, AP, some custom style? Have a source.
      2. If the editors are supposed to be verifying accuracy of facts/content, they don’t get to add/subtract punctuation or make design changes.
      3. Are certain people only supposed to be looking at section X because that’s their area of expertise? Don’t send them the other sections.
      4. Have changes funneled to you from one central person at the client — they have to be the one to decide yes/no on the changes, and consolidate them so you aren’t getting contradictory changes from 9 different people.

      Since your contract has expired, you can also ask for a new contract specifically to finish out this project.

  85. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

    (Ack, I commented this as a reply instead of a new comment, please forgive me!)

    I am a new hire (9 months) in a very boring, very mundane area of higher education (example: teapot production curriculum regulation). This is my first job in this area, and I am low-middle on the hierarchy of the department, but I have been working adjacent to the area, or pursing a degree related to the area, for most of the last 15 years.

    I care very, very deeply about the subject manner and, to me, there is so much to the subject that makes me excited. There is constantly changing regulation that allows us to push the framework of our program, allowing it to be more diverse, more equitable, more accessible. This is in line with the greater mission of the institution. There are broader changes that other institutions have implemented that have increased enrollment, increased retention, and increased success of graduates.

    However, everyone in my office is absolutely and completely divested from the subject manner. I am the only one who keeps up with changes in regulation, or studies related to the regulation. I am the only one who attends non-mandatory webinars and trainings. Any time there is a legally mandated shift (“we no longer need to check applicants for other pottery production experience”), my coworkers are confused, and will push back against me. When I learned about a critical error in our national funding, something that will affect 40% of students possibly preventing them from enrolling or attending, and that we have to fix one by one, my coworkers were annoyed because it was going to make their jobs very, very slightly more difficult.

    My question is basically… how do I continue to maintain this disposition (invested, appropriately passionate, engaged) in an office where, from the bottom to the top, nobody really cares?

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      Make it a habit. By that I mean, continue to read, research, study, etc. to stay up to date on the field. Continue to attend training and webinars, continue to look for ways to modify material. You can’t control how others feel and behave but you can control their impact on you. If you find you can not, then you should leave before they really do change you. I received that advice a long time ago and I believe it is still true. Be aware of your values and focus on those regularly. Once a year, revisit your values and adjust as needed.

  86. Ihmmy*

    so I’m non binary and have been out at work about this for over two years. I still consistently have my old pronouns used instead of they/them (I use some neopronouns with friends but keep it to they/them at work because it’s simpler than explaining the pronoun issue), including by my grandboss. I know they don’t intend harm but it’s getting really hard for me to put up with. I pipe up with a quick “they!” to correct coworkers when they err but I’m not sure they even hear it anymore.

    How big a deal is appropriate to be making with this? I don’t want to make people feel bad about it and honestly cannot deal with the effusive apologies one person makes (just go “oh sorry” and do better next time, please). I need a new line because just saying “they” isn’t getting heard and I’m really exhausted by this (especially right after TDoV)

    1. Six for the Truth*

      I see no mention of your manager in here, only a brief mention of your grandboss being unable or unwilling to use your pronouns correctly.

      I would have a one-on-one conversation with your manager letting that person know this is important to you and an ongoing source of frustration. I would make explicit that having the correct pronouns used for you is important to you, and that you’re looking for support and guidance on approaching these conversations effectively. Your manager will know your work culture and your colleagues better than we will.

      It may help if you put your pronouns in your email signature, if your work culture is one where that’s normal/encouraged. It may also help if your manager follows up on your behalf, one-on-one, with coworkers/clients/other parts of the organization that aren’t getting it right.

      But really, if your manager does not have your back on this and you do not see improvement over the next few weeks, I’d polish up your resume and look for an organization with better values around inclusion and treating others with respect.

      1. Ihmmy*

        I have talked with my manager previously about it – she is supportive and aware it’s an issue but being cis and not having other non binary folk in her life she doesn’t have good solutions. She encourages one on one discussions, which is usually the right route but I’m just so tired of correcting people.

        The HR rep for our area refused to meet with me about disability accommodations so I’m reluctant to go that route (I have before with our previous HR rep).

        Pronouns are in email signature, and a little magnetic sign on my nameplate which grandboss walks past daily.

        1. Six for the Truth*

          I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “she encourages one-on-one discussions.” Are you saying your manager is “aware” and “supportive” and has not addressed this herself or offered to address this herself with anybody you work with?

          For the record, my manager is a cis man, is aware pronouns aren’t a priority for me, and has offered to have one-on-one conversations with clients or peers about using language I am comfortable with.

          Your HR, grandboss, and manager all sound like they’re part of a really flawed work culture.

          I would be politely, professionally, and quietly looking for a role more compatible with my values yesterday.

        2. Doctors Whom*

          Your manager is lazy.

          This is, quite specifically, their job. You have told people, you have made your pronouns accessible and made repeated requests. You are escalating to your manager because 1:1 conversations did not work. Any decent manager would say “I apologize for this. It should not be happening and it’s not OK. I’m going to talk to all these people directly.” and then they should actually talk to the grand boss and any problem individuals, and should send out a note to your team about how using people’s preferred pronouns is not optional.

          You shouldn’t have to do this, but I would start shopping for a role where you will be supported. You aren’t asking for anything more than the basic decency given to cis people every day. Two years is long enough for people to get it right.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      How do you feel about wearing a they/them button (pin) ? You can buy them or make one. I think i’ve seen stickers too. Then your coworkers would have a visual reminder and you’d have something to point out when they screw up. If you’re at your desk a lot you can make a little decoration too. You shouldn’t have to. But clearly they’re not getting it.

      My new work doesn’t do pronouns at all. It bothers me. My old work that was just part of introducing yourself in a meeting and everyone had them in zoom and in email signatures… My old work we had a lot of international contacts and it was more about not wanting to make assumptions on unfamiliar names than anything else.

    3. none gender*

      I don’t have good advice but wanted to send some sympathy. It sounds like if anything you might not be making enough of a big deal about it – if you really are just saying “they!” in the moment, people might tune it out/not connect it with what they just said. You could try interrupting with a full sentence (“Hey Brenda I use they/them pronouns so can you use those? “They got the copies”. Thanks!) but I get you that that’s also exhausting.

    4. Camellia*

      You probably shouldn’t do this, but I think about using the wrong pronouns right back at them. If your grandboss is a ‘he/him’, then use ‘she/her’. You get the idea. Then, when they react, say, “Oh, I thought it didn’t matter to you, since you always use the wrong ones for me!”

      Like I said, probably not a good idea, but oh so tempting!

      1. ecnaseener*

        Definitely not a good idea, reinforces the idea that you can misgender people to punish them.

  87. Six for the Truth*

    Hello commenters! This is my first question, and I’m seeking a variety of opinions about fun button-down shirts.

    Specifically, I work at a small IT company that acts as the IT provider for a variety of client companies in different countries and industries: engineers, lawyers, manufacturers, movers. I know some of our clients’ offices are “hoodies, tshirts, and jeans” environments, but there are others I don’t know well at all. It’s getting warmer out, and I’m debating putting more fun patterned/floral/Hawaiian short-sleeved button-down shirts into my work clothes rotation. We’re a pretty flexible office, so I’m sure my team will be fine with it.

    Example with oranges: https://oldnavy.gap.com/webcontent/0050/028/271/cn50028271.jpg
    Example with fish: https://oldnavy.gap.com/webcontent/0028/216/484/cn28216484.jpg

    If you needed to hop on a video call with an IT support technician due to an urgent issue, would you feel like the tech was disrespectful/too casual/not serious enough if they were wearing this sort of shirt, or is this fine? Does the one with oranges read as much more casual than the one with fish, to you?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I think both are fine. I think the orange is obviously orange while the fish read more abstract pattern.

      What about keeping a neutral tan pullover sweater or similar in your office, then if it’s a clear mismatch in style levels you could just chuck that on. My old boss kept a navy blue pullover sweater and a blazer in his desk, saved him a couple times when he forgot he had important meetings…

    2. kina lillet*

      I have a rule of thumb. If the illustration on the shirt is larger than your thumb, it’s a Hawaiian shirt and it is big-C Casual (first link). If the illustration is smaller than your thumb (second link) it’s a little-guy print, which is popular casual streetwear and a couple steps up from a t-shirt.

      In IT it’s fine to be big-C Casual (see: hoodies) but if you’re looking to take a step up, go for little-guy prints.

    3. OtterB*

      I would be fine with either of those. I think IT techs are often viewed as more casual than other workers. If I had to hop on a video call for an urgent issue, either of those would seem fine to me. If the technician can fix my problem, I don’t care what he’s wearing as long as he’s wearing *something* and it’s prefereably not a t-shirt with obscenities or racist/sexist slogans.

  88. Absolutely Not*

    Do y’all think it’s unreasonable to pursue a career knowing that I plan to drop it in a few years when my husband and I are able to adopt? With my health, it’s not realistic for me to both work and parent.

    I don’t want to create a recipe for heartbreak, but I also am in a job I really enjoy and I’m pretty seriously considering pursuing it the best I can until the last second.

    Any experience or advice appreciated.

    1. Soup of the Day*

      I don’t think this is unreasonable at all. You still need work to do for the next few years, and it might as well be something you enjoy doing. Also, you never know what the future holds – there are situations in which you might want or need to return to work even though you don’t anticipate it, and if you decide you want to work again after the kids are older, the advancements you make now can help you start off at a higher level later.

      1. Absolutely Not*

        That’s true! I hadn’t thought about getting to go back to work after the kids are older. I think that’s something I’ll probably want to do, at least in a volunteer capacity. And this isn’t an industry that changes a ton (I work with animals), so I’d be in a pretty good position to bounce back, even if I waited til all the kids are out of the house.

        Thank you so much for your input. I feel really excited by this now!

        1. Soup of the Day*

          Yay!! I’m happy for you!! I hope the adoption process goes smoothly (although it’s still a ways off!)

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      Do it. You don’t know what life will bring or how long it will take to adopt. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with pursuing something now that you don’t plan to continue with long term, otherwise no one would be able to start any new job! I myself am switching careers after pouring my whole heart into my last field and finding myself burned out. The fact that I left the field doesn’t devalue the contribution I made.

    3. MaxKitty*

      Absolutely keep your career until you actually adopt and determine at that time it doesn’t work for you to do both. You don’t know how the future may work out. Adoption may take longer than anticipated. Or sometime, you may be put into a position where you have to work, and having these years of experience will be invaluable.

    4. Littorally*

      Not unreasonable at all.

      You plan to adopt with your husband and then leave the workforce — but man plans and God (or fate, if you prefer) laughs. You don’t know what’s going to happen between now and then, and I would say when it comes to jobs and finances, it’s better not to hamstring yourself in anticipation of the future.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      Not at all! I plan on dropping out of the workforce when a giant pile of money falls onto me from the sky, but until then I carry on. Who knows what will happen in the future? It’s fine to operate as usual until plans are solidified and more immediate.

    6. Asenath*

      Keep your career until you need to drop it. Who knows what the future will bring? You might have to wait longer than you expect to adopt; you might even find out you can handle it and children as the children grow older and more independent, so it makes sense to keep at it as long as you can, with, if you do return, a shorter gap. Especially if you enjoy it!

    7. Squirrel Nutkin*

      If you can, try to do a lot of investing in your retirement accounts wisely NOW so the money has time to grow during the years you’re not working. Heaven forbid that you and your spouse divorce and you wind up as a single parent, you’re going to be glad that you have saved something for your own future.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Honestly, I think pursuing a career without being too attached to it is a great recipe for success and contentment. It’s a lot easier to have healthy & appropriate boundaries with your employer, managers, coworkers, and industry when you do not have your whole identity wrapped up in your job.

    9. Filosofickle*

      One thing I took away from Sheryl Sandberg is: Don’t leave before you leave. Women sometimes look ahead and preemptively lean back way before the moment is actually there and decisions/changes need to be made. You like what you do, enjoy it until it’s no longer right for you!

  89. Dee Dee*

    We’re about to do a small re-org. On the plus side, I’m involved in it, and there’s no risk of me (or anyone else, I don’t think) losing their position. But, I am at a bit of a crossroads. One of the other senior leaders (that is, one level above me) approached me and asked if I’d object if as part of the exercise she propose that I report to her. I didn’t have any objections—I think she’d be great to work for and I could learn a lot from her—but I do really like my current manager as well. He also raised it with me and has basically said it’s up to me to define my role with the organization, and I have his support wherever I go. That’s great, but I am not sure if I want to have to make this choice myself. I’d rather understand what the org sees my role as being and then put me in the position where I can do that most effectively.

    Any advice on negotiating this situation?

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Since it sounds like you’re part of the leadership team working on this restructure – there isn’t really a “the org” (as a separate entity) to decide where you should be “put” — you’re part of the structure of the organisation making the decision! It seems like they see you as having more seniority and agency than you yourself realise.

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      It’s interesting that your current boss has left it up to you to define your “role”; is that not established? Are your core job functions going to change if you report to one person vs. the other? This shouldn’t really be a personality contest — which boss do you like better — but a function assessment — which boss makes sense to understand, respect, direct and evaluate the work you do. If you are a subject matter expert, which boss understands your subject? For example: if you’re in communications, but you report to the VP of Operations, does the VP understand the big picture role and also daily function of a communications person, or would it make more sense to report to a VP of Sales/Fundraising/Marketing, or the VP of Finance if your communications are financial in nature?

      1. Dee Dee*

        I think it’s an opportunity to redefine my role around my strengths. My current role is established, but I’ve probably gone beyond what it looks like on paper and I think the other leader sees an opportunity to take my skill set and apply it to a new set of problems. Depending on where I want to go, either org could make sense. But I take your point, and that’s what I have been trying to say to my leadership: what matters here is where the role and how they understand its responsibilities and accountabilities fitting into the org apart from whatever individual happens to fill it.

  90. CW*

    What was one petty thing you did at work? It doesn’t have to be necessarily in front of someone. I’ll start.

    In 2017, I was working a job on a very lowball salary and a small firm. I will admit I shouldn’t have taken that job, but I was desperate for full time work and experience. The lowball pay completely soured my attitude. In late March of that year, we had a company wide meeting. The owner of the company said that profits have been tripling in the past year, and that he would like to open a couple more offices, and that he would like to pay everyone more. That sentence really stung, given my lowball salary. He then handed everyone an updated employee packet.

    When the meeting was over, I was MIFFED. When nobody was looking, I went over to the shredding bin and threw the packet into the bin without hesitation. I was just NOT having it.

    Now, was that a childish move? Yes, and I will admit I could have handled it better. I wasn’t at that job for much longer anyway, and I was glad to be out.

    2. A Feast of Fools*

      A million years ago, cleaning staff at hotels/motels used to put a loop of paper over the toilet seat that said, “Sanitized for Your Protection”.

      Half a million years ago, I was an office admin / accounts payable clerk in a small consulting firm. I took care of selecting and managing vendors, keeping our network running, and our installing/updating software in addition to answering phones, sending out marketing literature, getting contractors’ resumes ported into our system, etc.

      One day, after about a year of working there, one of the owners decided that I needed to be making his morning coffee for him, even if that just meant having the grounds and the water all teed up in case he got into the office before me, and then cleaning the [4-cup] pot at the end of the day.

      I was pissed.

      So that afternoon, I stayed late and created one of those “Sanitized” toilet paper loops and put it over the pot, then purposefully came in later than the owners the next day so the one guy would have to remove the paper before turning on the coffee pot.

      He both thought it was hilarious *and* got the message.

    3. Squirrel Nutkin*

      Law library front desk where I generally took great pleasure in going above and beyond for patrons.

      This attorney called and just barked the name of someone at the law school, expecting me to connect her instantly. I totally COULD have connected her, but she was so rude that I just gave her the number and made her make the call herself.

  91. Yellow Rose*

    I have recently asked my employer for an ADA accommodation for time off to see a specialist for my covered illnesses. My employer just requested a note from my PCP as to what accommodations I’m requesting. My HR Rep has been great…my PCP, not so much.
    They are confusing the ADA with FMLA, and have told me my employer needs to send them a form. HR has said “no form to send, the doc needs to send us a note with your needed accommodations.”
    HR was a bit puzzled by why the doc would have called them; so far, HR has not called the doc back, but has let me know the clinic has reached out to them.
    Is this unusual? I do not have the best relationship with this doc, but they are the only one in my small town, and were a bit miffed I had the temerity to ask to see a specialist at a teaching hospital.
    Should I be worried for what this primary care doc may say to my HR Department?
    I’m in meetings all day, but look forward to what the Commentariat has to say. Thank you all!

    1. HoundMom*

      Totally normal sadly. A doctor that is willing to advocate for a patient and knows how to do it is gold. I hear doc’s say they don’t make money doing paperwork (and in all fairness there is a ton of it) but they are literally playing with people’ slices and livelihoods.

    2. Squirrel Nutkin*

      Maybe the specialist will be able to write you a note? Teaching hospitals usually have social workers that facilitate things like this paperwork. Maybe see if you can reach the social worker at the teaching hospital even now to see if they can assist?

  92. Relocommotion*

    I’m trying to find a job (fairly niche, public/np sector, ~10y professional/intro mgmt) in a new state because my Current State is becoming unlivable, there are more opportunities in my field in New State, and New State has better legal protections for personal things I don’t want to discuss with potential employers. I’ve selected a single city to focus my efforts. I’m being very picky with what positions I apply for, making sure my capacity and preparation are clear. I have a refined career trajectory planned that follows logically from my prior experience. I’m an emerging leader in my field, and well-respected if low-profile in Current State. I have done a lot of networking-from-a-distance and have extensive experience in embedding myself effectively and expeditiously in new settings. I clarify that I don’t need relocation support. All this is, of course, reflected in my cover letters. I always include a solid list of references. The applications don’t seem to be an issue (yet?).

    I generally interview very well, and I use all the tips in the AAM guide. I’m personable, disarming, and the right balance of quirky v. gravitas. But I interviewed for 11 good-fit positions, including a few multiples, between October and December and I’ve gotten no offers. I’m a little worried people will start moving away from remote interviews, even though about half of the positions I’m applying for are at least hybrid. I certainly can’t afford to fly over for every interview, though I’d be willing to travel for a final interview if I had a strong feeling they wouldn’t just fail to hire and repost (maybe I’m a tiny bit bitter about that one job). I’m eager to move. I’m confident I can relocate quickly. I am committed to New State and have a lot to offer. I can live out of a suitcase if I have to. I just don’t have the savings to move before I have an offer (you know, like most people at my level). I’m very reasonable at accepting that it’s not about me, it’s about the right fit for the position, but I’m getting discouraged and want to do what I can to ensure it in fact isn’t me.

    What could I be missing? I don’t know how long I can send in a letter to the same 30 agencies saying “I’m gonna move!” without it sounding like a fib.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      As a hiring manager who has hired for 5 positions (so far!) during the pandemic, I can say that the factor in some of our interviews was when we offered candidates the option of virtual or in person. Those who came in person (circa spring 2021, pre-vaccine – masked and room open to outdoors) just had more of a chance to create rapport with us – most importantly, with my boss who is a little more traditional. So the next time you get an interview offer in New State, I do think you should consider self-funding a trip out there to take it in person (if they are willing to do it). It is likely to make a huge impression. Perhaps you can work in a few info interviews/networking coffees to the same trip to start setting down roots in New State. I believe this may be tax deductible?? (consult an accountant!)
      I am in local govt, and have had applicants in virtual interviews admit they have never been to our jurisdiction, “but it looks nice online”! Not impressive.

    2. Sherm*

      Perhaps you should do a practice interview with a friend, to ensure that your interviewing skills don’t need improvement. Once, a friend practiced with me, and I found that she made this odd laugh when she said something a little sensitive. (Think: “Because of the restructuring, the project wasn’t completed. HehehehahaHAHAhehehe.”) I pointed this out to her, and I don’t think she even had noticed.

      But about the relocation, yeah, they might indeed be worried if you’ll really be moving. In fact, there was a letter here recently where the OP reported that a new employee was supposed to move, but kept failing to get around to it. Do you have family or close friends in New State? Mentioning that may assure them more that you’re moving. Or maybe you could join a volunteer organization where it’s feasible to start remotely but obvious that sooner or later you’d have to join in person.

      1. Relocommotion*

        Finding a temporarily remote volunteer gig sounds like a winner. I’ll check with some folks about running some faux interviews as well. Thank you!

  93. Clienting*

    Has anyone ever worked for a vendor and left to work directly for a client (company was a client of my last employer, not current, so no ethics worries). Specifically have you been the client of former coworkers? I’m in the beginning stages of interviewing but this makes me nervous. I would almost definitely regularly interact with them. No bridges burned and there’s an open door for me to go back there even, but the potential awkwardness!!!

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      I haven’t but I know people who have done this. It has not been awkward and it is actually kinda nice to have someone at that client company that knows us so well.

    2. AnonAnon*

      I haven’t done it myself, but have hired staff from at least 3 of our vendors (small niche field). Worked great all 3 times. No one was awkward about it at all – it’s just business.

  95. Work texts during vacation?*

    So I’ve been getting text messages from my boss during my vacation. It’s kind of an open secret at work that upper management checks emails during vacation (I am off a week). I am not upper management (make half my boss’s salary). The text was around something that definitely could have waited till I am back (at my workplace…. everything is treated as it is “urgent” but in reality it isn’t).

    Do others get such texts during time off. My friends actually revealed this happens to them too. Is this another facet of the new remote workplace? Can I bring this up as something I am not fond of it? Should I just accept it as a new workplace norm?

    1. Clienting*

      It’s happened to me. I respond once and say that I’ll handle it when I’m back from vacation. Unless it is truly urgent, which it never has been! Really irritating and dysfunctional in my opinion.

    2. ah beans*

      I am in entry level management and I rarely get texts or calls outside normal working hours. We have an overnight technical process that I am IT liaison for, and I get calls if it fails, because there are major work implications the next day. I make decisions on how to proceed and communicate them in my off hours so IT can react and people know how to start their day the next morning. It happens maybe twice a year. Also, my boss is my backup and if I am not available or don’t answer, he handles it, I am not solely responsible.

    3. Dasein9*

      The only time I’ve texted with a boss at work was to let them know that we’d gotten an Uber Eats credit for the holiday that I knew they wouldn’t want to miss out on.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Nope, I never get contacted while I’m out of the office, and certainly not when I’m on vacation. It can sadly be the norm in individual offices, but it’s not a general workplace norm.

    5. Decidedly Me*

      I’m on the leadership team at a remote company and I almost never get bothered on my vacation. People know to only reach out if something truly needs me and they respect that.

    6. Alexis Rosay*

      I personally don’t get texts on vacation because I don’t give coworkers my phone number. (They can have a google voice number, but on vacation I delete google voice from my phone).

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I was just on vacation for a week and I got two texts from my boss: one telling me that she had emailed me the statement for my annual bonus to my work email in case I did want to see it before I got back, and one asking if she needed to address anything in my absence about the celebration plans for a retiring team member who’s last day was the day after I got back.

      Normally nobody interrupts my vacations except me.

  96. Bananagrams*

    Does anyone have recommendations for learning more about cybersecurity?

    My spouse just got a new job (yay!) where cybersecurity is a big deal. His qualifications were strong in other areas, and he’s technology-adept, but cybersecurity isn’t something he knows much about. He started last week, and his boss told him this week that she wants him to grow into their primary cybersecurity expert.

    1. Alex*

      This seems like a red flag…if a company needs cybersecurity, they really need someone who has experience in cybersecurity. Unless the company is planning on paying for (and your spouse is open to completing) actual coursework in cybersecurity, I don’t think it is something you should just wing/learn as you go, especially to become a “primary expert” in the company. Yikes!

    2. Six for the Truth*

      What kind of systems is your spouse supposed to help secure? What will happen if he can’t reduce your attack surface fast enough or otherwise misses major problems?

      If your spouse’s company already has a separate cybersecurity team or hires outside cybersecurity consultants, this is a lot less worrying – because then he’ll be learning from and with people who know general cybersecurity, his industry, and his company.

      If your spouse is joining something like a purchasing department or web development team where a massive cybersecurity problem could incur massive finanical losses, that’s a green flag for me. If it all goes horribly wrong, the company’s insurance will take it up with their executives. Cybersecurity is expensive and those skills are hard to attract and retain, so it’s not ridiculous to want to grow them from within. If the company wants to gamble their bank accounts on your spouse’s expertise rather than spend experts’ salaries or consulting fees, that’s their call.

      The least negotiable red flag in my opinion is if your spouse is working in a safety-critical operation like disaster response, nuclear power, domestic violence, union organizing, or dissident journalism, where systems failing or information leaking to threat actors could result in the loss of life. I would not be comfortable working somewhere that was willing to make that up as they went along.

    3. Anon Today*

      He should look into completing certifications through SANS or CompTIA. (Unless he already has one and that’s how he got the job.) If the company can send him to hands-on workshops or conferences, that would be good, too. Hopefully there will be on the job training from a mentor. NIST and CISA also have resources for learning about best practices.

      Cybersecurity is super broad and I think my answer might be different depending on like… if he’s a journalist covering cybersecurity issues. Or a sysadmin working on hardening servers. Or a general compliance person about to tackle a new industry certification that certifies the org has a secure posture. But for all of these… there is so much information online, you just need the time and energy to learn it.

  97. Alex*

    I’ll just come out and say, because it is relevant to this question, that I’m a generally pretty good worker and usually a top performer in whatever role I am in. I have a good work ethic, pick up stuff quickly, can carry on without hand-holding, etc.

    But I’ve never really been able to translate this into more money. I just started a part-time job in addition to my regular job, and already they are wanting to put me on more advanced tasks that require more training, more work, etc. It’s….supposed to be a compliment, I guess? “We think you’d be really great and can trust you with this harder, more important task.” It’s not technically outside the scope of what I was hired to do, but it’s just frustrating that others who underperform still get the same base rate and don’t get this much asked of them.

    I’m always running into this–my good work gets rewarded with….more work. I’ve only been at this job a few weeks, so I don’t really feel like I can ask for a raise, but for once I’d just like to be “average” and get the same pay.

    How do I stop doing this to myself? In other situations I *have* asked for more pay and been refused. This dynamic is so unfair and it’s been plaguing me for at least 15 years.

    1. Awkward Potato*

      Honestly if you can figure out how to fix this… Let me know because I am in the same pickle as you. I am getting reassigned other people’s, who make far more money than I do, work because I am faster at getting it done. Any time I have brought this up, it has been quickly squashed by my boss and if I decline to take on extra tasks then I am not being a team player. Anyways, I have no advice. Just commiseration.

    2. Jen*

      I don’t have a solution to offer you, but I feel you on this. All my hard work has only ever resulted in more responsibilities and not more pay. I feel like I’ll forever be at the bottom of the ladder even though I excel at everything down here.

    3. Hiring Mgr*

      Could you ever move into a sales role? There’s still plenty of BS like anything else, but it’s one area where your efforts can often directly reflect your comp

    4. Alexis Rosay*

      Sounds about right. As my friend says, “Work is a pie-eating contest where your reward is more pie.”

      Are you interested in being promoted? Can taking on these tasks help you get there? If yes, then it makes sense to agree to do them without more immediate pay if you an see a long-term benefit. I think it would be fair to sit down with your manager and say, “I’m interested in being promoted to X role. Can we look at the job description for that role together and talk about how my current responsibilities compare and create a road map for me to get there?” Or, is there a higher-paying role you’d like to aim for outside of your current workplace? That’s another situation where it could make sense to bulk up your responsibilities without extra pay if they align with other roles you might apply for.

      If the extra tasks are “planning an office party” or the kind of work that is never recognized or compensated, then I hope Allison has some kind of script for gracefully declining…

    5. Ozzie*

      I’ve only ever been able to get this work once time, and there is a lot of context involved. But I relate to “good work rewarded with more work but not more money” a LOT. So the one time I actually asked for a raise and got one, this is what happened:

      – I had worked at the company, in my role, for 3 years already
      – My scope of work had increased by request, because I was doing primarily sales/customer service, which I am terrible at, and should not have been hired for (which was a whole thing that can be chalked up to inexperience on the boss’s part)
      – The only other time I had asked for more money was because there was a pay equity issue at a former job

      I went into my yearly review that year with a list of all of my accomplishments of the year, as well as a marked up copy of my job description for all of the changes that had been made to my job since it was list written (when I was hired). Since my job was still changing, we agreed that in 6 months from the review, we would have another check in, at which point we could discuss salary increase based on how well I was performing the updated job description – as well as a title change. (keep in mind, said place of employment works on a 12 month cycle with yearly wage increases and such)

      Six months roll past and I reach out to my boss and direct supervisor to schedule this check in. I do this via email to make sure I have it all documented. At first they are resistant to scheduling the check in at all. I remind them that this was documented in my review. Once they finally agree, I stress that title and compensation change were agreed to be part of this discussion, which is pushed back against, hard. I have to insist they be discussed over a series of emails that I had to take time to respond to, lest I sound as angry as I was becoming. They finally consent, and we schedule it for another couple weeks out (due to vacation times). At this point it had been like, 7 months. The review goes fine, and ultimately I get told I’m getting a 10% raise increase with my “promotion” (title change), and that that was the best my boss could get me, since that’s our raise cap. No chance for negotiation, that was what I got. My actual job changed very little – I was still doing all the entry level stuff as well as all the broader scope things (spoiler alert: 2.5 years later and I am still doing these things), but I did get my title change and raise. But I definitely spent quite a bit of political capital to do so. I don’t think I was ever that boss’s favorite person, and I really don’t think this entire interaction helped my case. But it certainly didn’t mean I was wrong.

  98. Neon Dreams*

    Is this experience normal when getting a bonus? My company announced months ago that they were going to give the service department a one time bonus for doing a good job during the pandemic. The way they worded it implied we would get both the regular pay and bonus. I look at my payslip yesterday and it was federally taxed at 22%. 1/5 of it was gone. The company mentioned nothing about this. Then on top of my regular deductions, I got only the bonus amount. Which is a good amount, don’t get me wrong. Just not as much as I’d hoped, when I have an impending car repair and regular expenses to pay.

    On top of it, when I switched jobs, the company classified me as work at home in state A, where they are located, and state B, where I live. I’m getting tax withheld for both places, which I don’t think is fair either.

    I don’t know. I’m really bitter about the whole thing. I sent HR a diplomatically worded email about how upset I was, but doubt I am the only one expressing their displeasure.

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      I can tell you the tax info is correct. The government taxes bonus payments at a higher level. Your employer has no say in that and has to withhold the taxes. If you are working in two different states (home and the office) it depends on the state tax law, but for many they would have an obligation to withhold for both of those states and you would have to file tax returns for both states. Again, this is dictated by the government and your company has no say in this.

      What does seem wrong, is it sounds like you didn’t get your normal salary – just the bonus payment. If that is the case, then they need to fix that. But it is possible your base pay is in the check and just not listed on a separate line item. But you should look into it.

      1. Neon Dreams*

        They did give me my base pay. It’s just the amount deductions between the two state taxes, the federal tax, my 401k contribution, my medical premium, and things like that pretty much erased my regular pay, leaving only the bonus amount in my bank account. Which is annoying, but I get it.

        It’ll make my taxes more complicated next year because I’ll have to file tax forms in both places. on top of having started gig work like Uber and Instacart in 2022, so that’s another thing to figure out.

        Thanks for listening to my vent about it.

      2. Lifelong student*

        In most cases, there are credits for state taxes paid to another state. For example, state A taxes income sourced in the State A. State B taxes income earned by residents in State B. But when you file your non-resident State A return, you get a credit on your State B return for taxes paid to State A. So you really don’t pay double taxes.

        1. Observer*

          Yes. But that only shows up once you file your taxes. The company needs to withhold for both to start with.

          Which stinks, to be honest, but there is not a lot they can do about it.

      3. Doctors Whom*

        Point of order – bonuses are not taxed higher than other earned income.

        Taxes are *withheld* from your paycheck at a higher rate on bonuses. But if the amount withheld will result i you withholding more for taxes than your annual liability you can adjust your regular withholding throughout the rest of the year, or get a refund when you file your taxes.

        OP you may be able to change your state tax withholding. You need to ask your HR specifically about whether there is a form that allows you to claim you are exempt from w/h in state A.

        1. Rick T*

          If OP’s effective income before the bonus was under just $41,775 (the bottom of the single filer 22% tier essentially ALL of the bonus would be taxed at the higher rate. Not because it was a bonus, but because at the final end of year their total compensation puts them in the higher tax bracket.

          From my experience getting bonus checks the ONLY calculation ADP payroll gets right is the annual limit on Social Security withholding. It looks like the tables they use your W2 filing to estimate your total annual income and set per-check withholdings to match that assumption. When payroll calculated the taxes on my bonus checks I had a big bill the next year, so I direct them to withhold at my top marginal rate for the year.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Bonuses are income, income is taxed. The first time I got a significant bonus, it was calculated at the next tax bracket and I was a little stunned. But when I filed at the end of the year, everything came out the way it’s supposed to be.

      1. Neon Dreams*

        This is my first bonus, so I wasn’t expecting the tax at all. Will keep it in mind for next time for sure.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      It’s totally normal for bonuses to be taxed at a higher rate, but if it’s higher than your normal bracket, you’ll see some back at tax time. I always get sticker shock questions from folks when they get their first bonus payment.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        If it looks like it got taxed at the higher bracket and you’ll be getting a lot more than expected back come tax time, you could adjust your w4 to withhold less from your normal pay – there’s a calculator at irs.gov, and you are legally allowed to change up your withholding whenever you want. Just be careful – if you get it wrong, you could end up owing come tax time.
        (One year, a bonus and a change to retirement meant I was due an unrealistic amount back – I figured it out around September and just turned off withholdings for the rest of the year. )

    4. Rick T*

      If your payroll did things they way ours does, your regular pay check should have been as expected with all the normal deductions.
      Your bonus check should have 1.45% for Medicare, 6.2% for Social Security, Federal taxes at your margin rate, and State taxes at the marginal rate all deducted.

      Stacking both payments in to one check then slamming the marginal rate on everything was a lazy job by the payroll department IMO.

      If they didn’t deduct Fed and State taxes at the marginal rate you would get a NASTY surprise next tax year. You would owe the difference between your normal deduction rate and 22%.

    5. Lifelong student*

      When I ran payroll at a business that did yearly bonuses, I always ran a special payroll for the bonus. I told the employees ( there were around 75) that I would set the withholding level at the then most common/lowest level unless they contacted me to request a different number. That avoided the automatic adjustment to the higher level which the software would have done. I also turned off all optional payments for healthcare, dependent care, etc. I did not turn off retirement contributions automatically but would if requested. It was complicated and required a lot of work to do so- both the turning off and turning back on before regular payroll had to be run again.

      If the 22% is higher than your marginal tax rate, you will end up with a refund when you file your tax return.

    6. Rick T*

      Re: dual state withholdings.. Have you checked the state laws yourself on residency and taxes? Payroll may be treating State A taxes like you work from in the office a significant amount of time. If you are 100% remote and never work in State A you may be able to adjust your withholdings. A consultation with a good tax accountant might be in order for you.

      Tax rules are really complicated. I work with an man who pitched for the Dodgers back in the 90s and he had to file state tax returns for every state the team played in for the earnings for those specific games… Yeesh!

      1. Neon Dreams*

        I’ll take a look at the laws in state A. I just found this out yesterday, so I haven’t had time to look yet. I am 100% remote in state B-will be interested to see what the laws say.

        What a logistical nightmare for your coworker! Hopefully he had a tax professional to help him.

    7. Reluctant Manager*

      Be careful to be professional about this. Giving a grumpy, unjustified response to a bonus–which someone probably had to go to bat for and is proud about getting approved–doesn’t make leadership keen to stick their necks out for you next time.

      (I know, these are business decisions and employees don’t owe their employers their undying gratitude for a decision that’s in everyone’s best interest–but when I gave someone a bonus and they complained, I was not super excited to go to bat for them in the future.)

      1. Neon Dreams*

        It wasn’t just me that got it- it was a whole department of the company. Probably hundreds of people. But I understand where you’re coming from. No one likes a crabby and ungrateful employee. If I had complained to my direct boss, for instance, that definitely would’ve been a strike against me in her book.

        If the company had said ahead of time: hey, just so you know this is subject to a higher tax rate, I wouldn’t have been as angry about it. I’d never gotten a bonus before, so I didn’t know about the taxes until I asked HR. I sent another ticket this morning saying I felt like I was lied to. I regret it now, but it’s been done. I can’t take it back. If HR gets enough complaints, I’m sure they’ll forward it up to the people that arranged it and take it into consideration for future payouts.

        I’m not trying to sound ungrateful. It’s not my intention. But if you’re going to give out a reward, at least be honest about all the fine print as well.

        1. Observer*

          Except that no one lied to you.

          The only thing that the company can do about the “fine print” as you call it, is to not give bonuses. Maybe they could also remind people that bonuses are like any other income, which means that taxes get taken out of them and because they are bonuses there may actually be a higher tax bite. I do think that it’s a good idea for the company to do that, but it’s not really the company’s fault that you (and apparently a lot of other staff) were unaware of these basic tax facts.

    8. Observer*

      I sent HR a diplomatically worded email about how upset I was,

      Why? What your company is doing is legally required. A bonus is income, it needs to be reported, and withholding has to happen. Same with the how they are classifying you. My husband works in a different state than we live in, and yes we wind up paying taxes in both states.

      Depending on the states in question, you might get some of the tax money back when you file taxes. Just make sure that you have a reasonably good accountant to look at this.

      I get that it’s upsetting. But it’s not your company that’s at fault, any more than a company that collects sales tax is at fault when your cost at checkout is higher than initially indicated by the price tag.

      1. Neon Dreams*

        Because I was angry and needed someone to vent about it to. I regret sending it now, but I can’t take it back. I’d never experienced being double taxed before, so it was a bit of a shock. I’ll look into how to file the other state’s taxes later.

        1. Observer*

          Do yourself a favor and get a decent accountant. It’s money well spent.

          In general, HR is not the best place to vent to. HR is good for bringing things that need to go on the record or that can / should be changed. That’s different from venting. Vent to a friend, family member – even a forum like this. MUCH better for your work relationships.

  99. Cheezmouser*

    So there’s a data project that I’ve been trying to get off the ground without much success for well over a year. I abandoned it last summer, because no one else on the team thought it was a priority and I got tired of being the only one pushing for it. Plus, I got a bunch of new projects assigned to me, so I stopped even manually tracking the data. Fast forward to now, and suddenly Executive team is asking questions about “How come this dashboard doesn’t work?” or “Why can’t we see data on Y?” The answer is, “Because we didn’t do That Project, which was designed to address these issues.” I know it’s not helpful nor professional to say “I told you so,” but after banging my head against a brick wall for over a year, I just…ugh.

    I’m trying to figure out how to respond to Executive team if/when they ask, “If we knew about these issues for over a year, why wasn’t anything done about it?” I don’t want to throw my peers under the bus, but I do want credit for having foreseen this issue and trying to address it with them. This is not for personal glory or vindication, but so my peers will actually listen to me next time I try to raise an issue.

    (And okay, maybe I’m still rather cheesed about it.)

    Any advice?

    1. ferrina*

      Oof, I’ve been in this boat before.
      I said something like: “We took steps A and B, but unfortunately our resources had to be reallocated to focus on ZYX. To keep something like this updated, we’d need to allocate X staff hours per week.” (My company had an issue with allocating resources to match priorities, so I liked to give them an estimate of what resources were needed. That also helped when more projects got piled on, I could say “If you ask me to take on this project, I won’t be able to update X. Should I work on this new project, or keep X updated?)

  100. k8*

    having a poor time with a recruiter at a job that i am fairly excited for and am having a hard time divorcing their behavior from my impression of the job as a whole -__- they’re an external company on an exclusive contract with the company i’m considering so they really don’t

    to date they have:
    – tried to get me to verbally commit without actually giving me a formal offer (them: “so will you sign??” me: “sign….what?”)
    – tried to get me to drop out of the interviewing process of other companies without…actually offering anything in return
    – told me two different numbers
    – have told me that actual i must decide within two days of actually getting the offer bc headcount (?) after i told them that i was waiting on two more companies
    – when i asked if there was a possibility of a signing bonus bc i have another offer that’s a bit better financially that i’m considering texted me (at 8PM at night) ” if we can get at $10K sign-on bonus will you sign tonight? I’m not sure it’ll get approved, but knowing you’d sign now will motivate them!”

    vs the recruiter for another company who
    – got on a call and gave me all the hard numbers and info
    – sent me a written version right after the call
    – assured me that she totally understood that i was speaking to other companies and to take as much time as i needed to decide

    i’m feeling very conflicted right now….trying very hard to remind myself why the first company was originally my top choice lol

    1. ecnaseener*

      You get to be done with this recruiter soon either way. They’re not going to follow you around if you take their offer!

    2. ferrina*

      You will only be working with the recruiter during the selection process, which will only happen once. Try thinking of the recruiter and company as two different entities. How is the rest of the company and who you have interviewed with?

    3. ArtK*

      The question for me is whether the urgency to commit is on the recruiter’s part or something that the company pushes. Most likely the recruiter but what were your impressions of the people you’d actually be working with? In particular, what was the hiring manager like? Did they seem impatient?

  101. Llama Wrangler*

    How do you prep for interview questions that are not behavioral? I just had an interview that was only 6 questions, all like: “Tell us about your experience with Llama Grooming” and “Tell us about how you build relationship with other Llama Groomers, Llama Trainers, and Llama Breeders.”

    I tried to give some specific examples, but since they didn’t ask any questions about my experience overall, I defaulted to summary, which wasn’t specific and probably was too vague. I have a tendency to get overly detailed and give long, multi-part answers, so I was trying to focus really hard on not being long-winded, but I also didn’t want to just jump into the equivalent behavioral answers I had prepped. Would it have been weird if I had said, “let me tell you about this one time I groomed llamas” as an example of how to approach it, or is that what I should have done?

    1. ferrina*

      There was no follow up questions from the interviewer? This sounds like someone not very good at interviewing.
      Yes, you can give specific examples, but only the most compelling and keep it succinct. You can also try asking your interviewer for feedback- “I know I focused mostly on X in my answer- I can speak more to Y if you’d like”.
      Though if your interviewer wasn’t asking follow up questions, there may not have been much you could do.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Yeah, I asked that a couple of times and they were like “no, no follow up questions.” I guess I was feeling like I bombed it, but maybe they were just bad interviewers. (It was a panel.)

      2. fueled by coffee*

        I had a job interview like this once, and it was explained to me as a way for the interviewers to make sure they were asking all candidates the exact same questions and therefore evaluating them according to the same criteria (responses to those specific questions).

        Now, I didn’t *like* this, and I felt like it made for an extremely awkward interview where I had no sense for whether or not my answers met what they were expecting. But it’s possible that they were trying to do something similar (although this should have been explained to you!). My bet is on “bad interviewers.” Even if a candidate was absolutely bombing, the polite thing to do is to either ask them follow-up questions to give them the opportunity to get on track or end the interview.

        1. ferrina*

          Yep, I’m seconding the “bad interviewers”. I’ve been the interviewer when a candidate is bombing, and I am usually asking more follow-up questions. The really bad sign is when I’m asking the same question multiple times just trying to get A. Frickin. Answer. Llama Wrangler, without feedback, there’s no real way to know if you bombed or not. You were a comedian without a crowd- maybe it landed, maybe it didn’t, but you had no feedback so there’s no way to know.

  102. Casper Lives*

    I’m frustrated that my coworker, who started a year after me and has the same experience level in the field, just got promoted. We’re both female in-house lawyers. I didn’t think we were eligible to be promoted. I asked my boss about promotion. She claimed I met the standards to be promoted and they’re working on it.

    She didn’t explain why my coworker got promoted in February. I got a top review last year with one of the highest raises in the office (8%), plus the coworker still asks me questions about the law!

    I’ve started looking elsewhere and got connected with a recruiter by a friend to see what’s out there. I’m not desperate to leave but this feels like a slight. Especially because the explanation didn’t make sense. They claimed my January metrics weren’t good enough. A) I was on FMLA for over half the month. B) Metrics were still above average. C) The decision to promote was made at the end of last year’s cycle, nothing to do with January. I don’t know why they’re feeding me this expecting I don’t know the cycle.

    1. anon for this one*

      Keep pushing on why one but not the other. It could be embarrassing for your manager if there was a route for you both to get promoted “early” and she didn’t know it. (Speaking as a manager, this can happen if one manager/supervisor is very adept at bureaucratic ways and means but doesn’t clue in their colleagues.) But it would be helpful for you to know so your manager can advocate better for you. Or, if there are legitimate concerns with your work, it is better to know and address those. Don’t let it slide!

  103. Santa's Helper*

    I’m currently working on my performance review, and our company has a space where we can share what we would like our managers to start, stop or continue doing. I’m at a loss for what to ask my manager to stop doing. I have a few examples of things I’d like to end, but I know they’re things that are beyond her control. For example, she’s had to reschedule our weekly check in four times this week, giving me just over 24 hours to complete my performance review. She had to push it due to client meetings, so I know that was beyond her control. Any advice on what to say?

    1. ecnaseener*

      You don’t need to make something up if you can’t think of anything that would be true! Especially not a critique of your manager — that’s a potential landmine you shouldn’t go near without a good reason. If it’s a required field, just write “none”

    2. ferrina*

      I would still say something like “I’d love for meetings to not be rescheduled so much, but I know this might be unavoidable.” That can at least put on your manager’s radar that it’s annoying, so she can try to find alternatives if possible.

  104. Just Like A Carrot*

    My department used to have three people including me and we’ll soon be down to one when my coworker goes on mat leave. I am already drowning with all of the extra tasks being piled onto me lately. My supervisor keeps saying all the resumes they’re getting for my coworker’s mat leave replacement are crap and that “no one wants to work,” which I understand to be a red flag about how she’s viewing the workforce!

    I never wanted to stay at this job forever anyway, the long commute is REALLY wearing on me, and a number of changes in management lately (including my direct supervisor) have made everything more stressful and changed what I used to like about the environment. I feel ready to leave and am trying to hold out until we at least get one new person in this department and I’ve been able to start training them…because if I left tomorrow, we’d simply have no customer service department once my coworker goes on leave. But I think even if I stick around that long, my (new to the company) supervisor will be frustrated that I’m leaving her with a team of one brand new hire. Still, I don’t feel I can tell her now “you should actually be looking to hire two new people instead of one,” because I just don’t foresee that going over well! I think she’d be be ticked off if she knew I’m planning on moving on. It doesn’t help that when we gathered to give a departing coworker a card yesterday, she told me “I don’t see why we’re celebrating someone who’s quitting on us. If they were retiring that’d be different.” Cool!

    I’m just so stressed. I know I don’t OWE this job anything and if I’m this burnt out, I owe it to MYSELF to find something better for me. If I can at least stick it out until they find a replacement, that’d probably be best. But I also can’t help but eye job postings I see available now for things way closer to my neighbourhood and think…what’s the harm in applying (Well, the harm if I got OFFERED one of those jobs and took it would be absolutely burning my bridges here if I left them in the lurch!)

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I feel ready to leave and am trying to hold out until we at least get one new person in this department and I’ve been able to start training them…because if I left tomorrow, we’d simply have no customer service department once my coworker goes on leave.

      Absolutely not your problem.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        This 100%. It’s not your problem to solve, and it’s a not a good enough reason to stick around. Even if they hired someone tomorrow, how long is it going to take for the new person to be completely self-sufficient – are you going to stick around an extra 6 months? A year? Two years? Don’t set yourself on fire to keep your awful boss warm.

    2. Rick T*

      Leave when you find a new job and don’t look back. Don’t wait until a new person is hired.

      What happens at your old company is NOT your problem nor do you need to coddle your manager.

      Good luck with your job search!

    3. EMP*

      absolutely look at those job postings! If you get one, give them the longest notice period you can (2-4 weeks) with grace. If they can’t figure their s–t out in that time period, that’s on them.

    4. Reluctant Manager*

      “(Well, the harm if I got OFFERED one of those jobs and took it would be absolutely burning my bridges here if I left them in the lurch!)”

      If leaving after 2 weeks’ notice would burn your bridges, then you have no bridges, you have shackles.

      1. ArtK*

        Well said! The question JLAC needs to ask is: Why would I *want* to keep a bridge to a company that didn’t support me?

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Oof, that sounds stressful! They *should* be hiring two people because you used to have a department of three and now have one. Also they were clearly able to hire a supervisor recently, who should be pulling more of the workload instead of dumping it all on you. If they’ve got their heads in the sand about that, it’s not going to change for you until you leave. If/when they hire someone to cover the mat leave, you’ll still be stuck with 2+ people’s workload AND training.

      Definitely apply to those closer jobs and see what happens. In the meantime, do what you can in a reasonable work day and let the rest go. It’s not your poor planning that will cause things to slide, and don’t listen if they try to convince you of that. I know that’s easier said that done when you care about doing a good job, but they obviously don’t care that you’re overwhelmed. Good luck!

    6. ferrina*

      Apply! Job searching usually takes longer than you think. Mine took about 5 months, and my position was in decently high demand. Between the applications, the interviews, the random gaps as companies have to deal with something else before coming back to you, you finding a company that you actually like….well, it takes time. Get a start on it!
      Deal with the guilt once you have an offer in hand (and I don’t think you have a single thing to be guilty about- anyone that expects an employee to stick around in those kind of conditions is not someone worth working for). I suspect by the time you have a new offer that you like, things will have gotten even worse at your current company. Unfortunately, that’s how these things often go.
      And if by the time you go, they still haven’t found a candidate….well, that’s on them.

    7. Observer*

      Well, the harm if I got OFFERED one of those jobs and took it would be absolutely burning my bridges here if I left them in the lurch!)

      It sounds like no matter what you do, your boss is going to see it as “leaving her in the lurch”.

      So, brace yourself for that and start looking. She doesn’t sounds reasonable, nor does your employer in general. So, keep doing the best you can and start actively looking at job listing, rather than “eyeing” them when you can’t help yourself anymore.

      Lots of luck!

  105. Can't think of a funny name*

    Just found out I’ve got a third interview with a company…don’t know exact date yet but time for suit shopping since this one will be in-person and my 10+ year old suits seem to have shrunk ;)

    2. ferrina*

      Woohoo! The best worst kind of shopping! (I’m convinced suit shopping is a complex form of torture)

      1. Can't think of a funny name*

        Yeah, was really happy that the first 2 interviews were virtual!

  106. let's make everyone happy*

    I work as part of management team and will be part of a meeting next week with all of management and our board to discuss employee retention. Besides pay increases, what are things that make employees happy and want to stay? For reference, my workplace currently offers:
    -free food always stocked (snacks, fruit, breakfast foods, etc), candy, coffee, elaborate catered lunches regularly
    -4 day work week
    -we participate in regular salary surveys and will adjust wages to be at or above market rates
    – medical, vision, dental & pharmacy insurance *this could use improvement for cost/assistance to reduce out of pocket
    -holiday bonus, holiday party that includes family
    -PTO that accrues and can rollover

    Any suggestions on additional things to consider?

    1. Can't think of a funny name*

      What do people say in exit interviews? Are there promotion opportunities? Is WFH an option?

    3. Koalafied*

      Professional development will be big for a lot of people. Not just a cursory budget for covering a conference here or there, but carving out time for them to develop their skills, organizing things like “brown bag” working lunches with a guest speaker who can present on useful professional skills, having meetings where you bring together people who do similar work in different departments to share and learn from each other, having on-demand training resources available (my org uses a platform called Greenhouse for trainings developed internally, and will also pay for a LinkedIn Learning subscription for anyone who says they’ll use it), and (I’m saying it again because it’s that important) carving out time for them to take advantage of these opportunities.

      1. A Feast of Fools*

        Agreed, especially on the “carving out time” part of this. My department has a relatively generous budget for professional development but the hours we’re booked to projects isn’t decreased by the required amount of hours to study for, say a professional certification or license.

    4. Reluctant Manager*

      It doesn’t fit on this list, but the most important thing you can do is make training and managing your managers a priority. Do you teach your managers how to be compassionate, effective leaders? The number of people who write in to AAM about having trouble with their benefits is almost nil; the number of people who write in about problem bosses and coworkers is incredible. You can’t retain good people if their colleagues are toxic. I so wish anywhere I’ve ever worked had done any meaningful personnel management training.

      1. Cheezmouser*

        +1000

        My company has first-rate benefits. I mean, I have better medical benefits than my friends who are actual doctors. But there’s one department where it’s not uncommon for new people to last less than a year. Toxic bosses will drive away more people than excellent benefits can ever retain.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      Clear career advancement and the option to work fully remote.

      I have no idea how to get to the next level in my role, and at this point I want to know that I’m working towards something and not just doing more work for no recognition. Especially when I see people in other departments advancing, it’s a bit of a downer. My boss recognizes this issue (it’s been around long before I started) and is working on it, but it’s starting to make me wonder what my career can/will look like here long term, even though I really do like my job and the company.

      But more pressingly, we were fully remote the last two years with great success, and now they want everyone back in, for no discernible reason besides “because we said so”. Or alternatively – “the sales guys loooove being in person fulltime and they’re loud about it, so that means that’s what everyone wants and therefore everyone should match them”. If being in person served a purpose for me/my department I would understand it, but my work is pretty siloed, and the only time I meet with anyone they’re usually in a different office or timezone, so we have to use teams to communicate anyway! We’ve already had a bunch of people leave due to the rigid wfh policy (even before the pandemic, it’s just even worse now since it’s proven that everyone can wfh fine, they no longer have the excuse that it would affect productivity or the bottom line), and I hate that I’m starting to wonder if it’s worth looking elsewhere since pretty much everything else is great.

      I really do like my job, my boss, and the company, and I’m happy with the benefits and salary, but I’m wondering if my quality of life would be improved if I moved to a company that had a better wfh policy.

      Just my two cents!

      1. Cheezmouser*

        +1 on the clear pathway to promotion and flexible WFH options

        About half the people who left my company last year did so because they felt stuck in their current positions with no clear pathway to career advancement. This applied not only to junior staff, but also mid-level managers.

    6. The Prettiest Curse*

      I would say that lowering the cost of insurance as much as feasible will help. My last job in the US had very good insurance for a non-profit (we contacted with the city so had access to their insurance) and it really helped with retention. It sounds like you’re doing quite a bit on wages already, so you may not be able to do much more. And try surveying your staff to see if they have ideas for the benefits that they’d like to have.

      Some other ideas:
      * Care subsidies – for childcare or for people who have family members in need of in-home care or assistance. This would be huge for a lot of people.

      * The best EAP that you can find. And make sure your staff know how and when to use it – have the EAP folks do a presentation, don’t just stick up a poster!

      *An employee discount program for local businesses.

      * Transit discounts if people are back in the office.

      * Secure bike storage, bike repair clinics and access to a shower if you have a lot of bike commuters.

    7. AnonymooseToday*

      For me, the option not to do 4 day work week if it means 10 hour days. I just can’t do that and would hate it, but also being upfront on job postings what the 4/week means. I get confused cause there are different ways it seems and no one ever clarifies up front.

      -parental leave
      -definitely better health insurance, that’s why I’ve stayed at my job for so long despite being underpaid.
      -vacation leave: what is it really? anything less than 14 days is bull in my book.
      -employee contribution to retirement
      -work from home and easy to get the tech you need

    8. AnneCahoots*

      Professional development/tuition reimbursement, work from home options, generous annual leave, flexible work hours (I see you already have 4 day week), and cross-training opportunities in areas of their interest. Catering lunch is over-rated; if you’re going to spend the money for that you may as well allow employees to expense up to $X amount for a lunch of their preference – it might even save you money in the end. Holiday parties are another one of those things, not for everyone; consider allowing employees additional days off instead that they can use for whatever holiday they celebrate. A one-time allowance for WFH furniture or supplies of their choice can go a long way. If people are required to go into the office to work, consider the variety of work spaces your office is providing- cubicles, cafe setting, outdoor space, individual offices. Take what you will from the above, my personal opinion is that none of it will matter if your employees don’t feel like their input matters or they don’t have purpose in their roles.

    9. Cheezmouser*

      Ensure workload and deadlines are reasonable. A lot of companies downsized during the pandemic or have been running lean for years. This places enormous pressure on the remaining staff, resulting in staff burnout and turnover.

      I’ve been with the same company for 15+ years and would love to stay for 15 more, but this is the one that has had me updating my LinkedIn profile recently.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yes to this! Have enough staff to do the work. All the other benefits won’t matter if no one can use them because they’re working 90 hrs a week. Or can never take a break because there’s no one else to delegate to/take up the slack.

    10. Anonymous Koala*

      -Flexible schedules whenever possible. 4 day weeks are great, but some people prefer hybrid/remote/work whenever you feel like it as long as you meet your deadlines schedules.
      -Paid parental/dependent care leave
      -Childcare/dependent care subsidies
      -Medical benefits with lower premiums and/or ones that cover ‘optional’ treatments like fertility treatments, lasik, etc.
      My friend’s workplace also has a program where they loan you part/all of a downpayment without charging PMI if you decide to buy a house. They’re in NYC so it’s a huge draw there, but ymmv.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Do you have policies on bullying?
      Do you have several avenues that people can report bullying/harassment and the reports do not go through just ONE person?

      Do people have say in their circumstances/setting? If you need X machine to do Y task, who picks it out? Ideally it should be a person very close to the people who use the machine/tool/whatever OR the people actually using the item. Same deal with chairs and other equipment that most people take for granted.

      Are your supply levels maintained. In a weak example, if a person needs a pen or a roll of TP can they find it? What about ink cartridges? Paper?

      Is their parking area safe and well lighted?

      Do you have emergency plans that actually work?

      What happens when they call in sick? Does the boss goad them? Or are they treated in a respectful manner?

      Look around. One board I was on I found that there was no caller ID on the phones. This meant the people had to deal with cranks and scammers because they had no heads up on who was calling. We even started working on security for people who worked after dark.

      How are building repairs handled? If a toilet is broken how long does it take for a simple repair to happen? How’s the physical safety around the building? Are there handrails? Are wires tucked away so as not to be trip and falls?

      Much of this is on-going activities and what you are checking for is to make sure these on-going activities actually happen.

    12. Carlottamousse*

      Suggestions:
      – Hybrid work schedules (wfh & in-person flexibility)
      – Retirement accounts and employer contributions. For example, my small firm offers 401(k) accounts and does a minimum percentage “safe-harbor” match (that doesn’t need vesting) and then a “profit-sharing” contribution that’s discretionary.
      – Improving your health insurance plan/deductibles/monthly premiums & offering fertility benefits like IVF & IUI & egg-freezing
      – Gym and phone subsidies
      – Childcare/dependent-care subsidies
      – Tuition reimbursement
      – Subsidized life insurance (low priority benefit)
      – Paid parental leave (this is a big one for retention for my SO who gets 3 months fully paid parental leave at his job)
      – Ability to buy an extra week of PTO and spread the “cost” over the year, with the $$ to be returned at the end of the year if not used (my SO uses that benefit every year)

  107. JustaTech*

    Does anyone have suggestions of language to tell project leaders “please stop hiring managers, we need more lower-level people to do all the actual work”?

    A project that I am tangential to (but provide intermittent support for) has completely failed to hire enough staff, and for some reason keeps focusing on manager and up positions (PhDs), when they have started the actual project with only two workers who are being asked to do the planning, the paperwork, the lab work and all the purchasing and inventory. It seems absurd to have people with (relevant, needed) Master’s degrees doing the inventory management (which is its own skill set), when they need to spend their time doing the science work that only they can do.

    Is there some special phrasing for “hire some more hands-on folks before the ones you have quit”? Or “stop dumping every single administrative job on your already overworked specialists and hire some admins already”? (That second one is a company-wide problem, and not just this project.)

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      So I’m not sure you can solve this. It sounds like you have an upper management problem. I would make it a point to tell your direct superiors that you need more admin staff, but if they don’t listen there probably isn’t much you can do. I will add that in start up or academic lab environments, it’s super common for phds and masters holders to do grunt work like inventory alongside the science only they can do – it’s generally cheaper to hire a PhD who is prepared to do some grunt work/lab management AND do science than it is to hire phds and an admin to actually run the lab. Not a fantastic way to do things imo, but super common. (I once had a CSO tell me “why would I hire an admin when I could hire a PhD for the same amount of money?” That lab was a mess.)

  108. DisneyChannelThis*

    Any tips for suggesting we need more redundancies in knowledge base? We’ve two out with new babies and 1 on vacation this week and management seems to think that just wait for them to get back to fix everything is a good solution to the fact that a lot of tasks are only understood by the person who does them….

    1. Six for the Truth*

      The buzzword-y language I’m used to seeing for this is “continuity of institutional knowledge” which is generally part of business continuity and disaster recovery.

      The aggressively informal techie term for the same problem is “busproofing” or “bus factor.” A service with a bus factor of one will stop if one individual unexpectedly leaves or leaves without training a replacement. Given that every day, people have medical emergencies, win lotteries, take vacations, start families, or, yes, get hit by buses, this is a risky state for your service to be in.

      If the service has no value to the org, that risk doesn’t matter. However, if the service is important to the org, a lack of continuity of institutional knowledge or a potential lack could stop or delay a service long enough to cost your organization much, much more than it would have cost to ensure that more people could operate whatever it was (and/or more documentation about it existed).

      If you have to do things like leave messages for Alice about blue teapots because she’s the only person who understands them, and you’re also fielding complaints about green teapot delays because Charlie is the only person who knows about green teapots and he’s out, too, it is worth bringing this dynamic to your manager’s attention if they’re not aware of it already.

    2. ferrina*

      For longer term leave that you can prep for (eg, parental leave), my company sometimes brings in a contractor to cover. The contractor will overlap with the regular employee by a couple weeks or a month (depending on the role). Folks that have had someone covering for them loved it- they said it felt like they had more freedom to unplug and focus on the baby (and not worry that no one was handling the work).
      Otherwise, it deps on the size of the organization, how critical the role is, and how much onboarding is needed to be competent at the role (a replacement doesn’t need to be as good as the regular- that would be unrealistic. They just need to be good enough to together emergencies).

  109. Rusty Shackelford*

    Am I the only person who works in an office and keeps my phone on mute? No one around me does. And I’m not talking about people who need to be able to hear if their child’s school calls, or are on the waiting list for an organ transplant, or whatever. I’m not talking about people who keep the volume low and have a subtle ringtone. I’m talking about people whose phones go off at full volume with that annoying ESPN jingle when sports scores come in (trust me, I know this), and people who have a loud multi-second tone that announces every text message, and people who simply get a lot of “how’s your day going” calls from their spouse. (And if they were waiting on emergency phone calls, wouldn’t they take their phones with them when they leave? Instead of leaving it here for me to listen to?)

    Is it just me? Am I just old?

    1. Can't think of a funny name*

      Not just you…that sounds annoying and rude. When I was in an office (pre-C) I would say most people had the phones on mute and if they weren’t, it was because they forgot that day.

    2. A Feast of Fools*

      In my office, phones are either on vibrate or the sound is so low that you can only hear it if you’re within a few feet of the phone.

      Since we’ve gone back, the one or three times that someone’s phone rang / dinged / chirped / sang loudly, they immediately apologized while simultaneously grabbing their phone to turn the ringer off.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Huh – our office culture, back when we had an office, was not to bother muting, for the most part. If there was a meeting, you muted during the meeting, but if you were at your desk, it was fine. And we were in a pretty open workspace. Mind you, most folks had it limited to actual calls, or alarms, and set relatively low – but you could absolutely pinpoint folks who got texts randomly, or if someone forgot their phone at their desk, you mentioned when they came back someone had called them.
      (It was always funny when there was a weather or amber alert, and everyone’s phones would go off in a wave across the office, depending on their carrier or bandwidth)
      idk – in retrospect, I could see why it’d be annoying if you liked silence, but most folks who wanted it quiet wore headphones because, again, open office plan – so it was loud, regardless.

    4. ferrina*

      I keep my phone on. If it rings I try to address it right away. I’m ADHD, and more often than not forget to turn my phone off of mute. I then get home and take it out of my pocket, put it in a weird place, then promptly forget where. Then can’t find it for half a day, meaning I miss half a dozen calls from my mom asking what I want for my birthday, and by the time I call her back, it’s too late, and I end up getting a bizarre neon scarf and “party crabs” for my birthday…..
      That said, I do try to address my phone immediately when it makes noise and apologize profusely. So yeah- I think you’re totally reasonable, Rusty Shackelford.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I had a boss who was 20 years my senior. Her dern phone went off every 10 minutes or so all day long. She had alarms for this or that. She had calls, texts and who knows what else. The phone drove me nuts. It was constant interruptions when I needed something from her.

      Now I have the opposite problem. I can be talking to my boss and never realize she is on the phone. Her phone is quiet and SHE is quiet. smh. Differences in people.

    6. Gatomon*

      No, that’s horribly obnoxious! People kept their phones on mute in my office pre-covid, except for the people who had their own offices. Unfortunately we still heard those quacks/beeps/tones, but thankfully it was brief.

      I will say my iPhone seems to blast full volume when I’m not using it as if it assumes I’m 10 million miles away, and I haven’t found a way to adjust that. But if it’s in use the volume is much more reasonable.

  110. Sylvan*

    New employee’s going to be in the cubicle beside me on Monday. They’re the first new employee to join our department alone — we usually get two or three at a time. They typically get to know each other in training before they join us. Any ideas on helping a new person who doesn’t have work friends yet feel welcome?

  111. LK*

    In the fall, I was offered a promotion into a more independant role to replace a retiring colleague. Around the same time, it was discovered that I would need a major surgery in the coming months. I trained with my predecessor before her last day, and then only three days into holding the role independently, my surgery date was moved up to the end of the week. All told, I was alone in the role for seven work days before going on medical leave, and most of that time was spent handing over the things I had just learned to various people to handle while I was gone. To make matters worse, my recovery was more complicated than anticipated, and what was supposed to be a six-week leave turned into four months. My organization was very supportive of me during this time. I’m finally returning to work this coming Monday (starting out part-time and WFH until I’m stronger), and wondering how I should approach my return and picking my new role back up – what sorts of things I should prioritize to get back on track, how to let people I work with less frequently know I’m back when I’m at home and they’re all back in the office, if there are certain types of meetings I should request. Any advice would be very appreciated.

    1. AnneCahoots*

      Your company is doing the right thing and letting you prioritize your recovery, so that’s great! Looking at it as if I were your colleague, I would probably appreciate a succinct email (blast to everyone) similar to the following:
      “Hello colleagues;
      As many of you are aware, I have been on leave for the last 4 months as I recover from a major surgery. Beginning April 1st, I will begin working remotely from home as I transition back to my position on a part-time basis. During this time, I will be available Monday through Wednesday from 8:00 am until 1:00 pm, and Thursday and Friday from 2:00 pm until 5:00 pm.
      Over the next few days, I will reach out to some of you individually to hear more about which projects should be prioritized, how I can best support our work, and how we can best work together going forward. If any of you need the same from me, please feel free to schedule some time or reach me directly at XXX-XXXX during the above-noted days and hours.
      Thank you all for the well-wishes while I was out; I look forward to catching up with you all as I return to work.”
      Your message may depend on your own work culture, your specific role, or anything your supervisor asks you address, I’d keep it fairly simple and to the point, otherwise.

  112. Kramerica Industries*

    My team is talking about returning to work now in a hybrid model. I LOVE working from home though. I didn’t realize how much I internalized everyone else’s stress at work and how much it helped to be comfortable in my own space to manage anxiety. I feel like my boss is going to suggest going into the office 3 times a month as a compromise, but even that sounds daunting to me. My stress isn’t workload related – my anxiety gets worse when I feel claustrophobic with other people in my space. Has anyone had any luck managing the WFH conversation around how much it helps anxiety?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Will they expect everyone to be there on the same days, or can it be staggered so you aren’t sharing the space with everyone at the same time?

      1. Kramerica Industries*

        Expected to be there the same day as your team, which is likely to be staggered with other teams. And workstations are the hoteling model, so it’s a shift from before where I had my own cubicle to make the space feel like mine.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Okay, so. They’re not likely to budge just to help your anxiety, unless you have an accommodation. You’ll need to give them a reason that matters to *them*. Have you been more productive at home? Can you use that? Or, is the space big enough that you could ask your team to spread out a bit?

    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      Feel free to disregard this if it’s not feasible, but if one of the reasons they want you in on the same day as your team is meetings, could you just come in for the duration of the meetings and then work from home for the rest of the day? My current job requires 1 day per week in the office, but they don’t mind if that’s 1 entire day or 8 hours split over several days. So some staff just come in for meetings, and that seems to work okay.

    3. AnneCahoots*

      Can you request they allow you a separate closed-off office space while you’re in the office , as a compromise?

  113. Sammy Keyes*

    Have you had success asking colleagues to be references, when the technical policy is that the company doesn’t provide them? I know some people are willing to *personally* be references in some cases, but I’ve also had former managers refuse to do this because of policy, even when they want to give me a reference.

    It seems kind of like a weird practice because every job I’ve had that had a policy not to give references did actually request my references when they hired me, so it’s an odd double standard! And a bummer to have a string of jobs where you can’t get a reference at all so you’re stuck using super old ones.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      I’ve always interpreted the policy to be that HR / the company as a whole wouldn’t give references on behalf of the company, but managers / coworkers were absolutely permitted to do so as individuals. Sort of the default to ‘The views and opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect the company’ sort of thing.

      1. Sammy Keyes*

        See, that’s how I always interpreted it too, until a wonderful former manager/mentor of mine told me he wasn’t allowed to be my ref! We had a great relationship and I’m confident he wasn’t just trying to give me the brush off…maybe because it was a law firm, they have to be more strict with their policies than other places (even though my own job wasn’t law-related).

  114. CorporateMgr*

    I have been with my company for 5.5 years, and I was promoted within my organization 5 months ago. This is my first time leading others (I have 5 directs). I have a fantastic team, but I am just not passionate about this area of our organization as I thought I might be. I’ve also been thinking of ”what’s out there” across other companies. Naturally I don’t want to leave my team, but I also want to be enthusiastic about my role. Should I wait until I hit 1 year, or could I start looking now?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Start looking. You don’t know how long it’ll take for good options to materialize.

    2. M.*

      I’m right there with you. I’ve been with my company for 4.5 years and accepted a promotion with a different team a few months ago. I really like my colleagues and I see the direction they want to take it, but the role isn’t quite shaking out how I would want it to be. I also find myself missing what I used to do. For myself, I’d like to give it a solid year because I do think I’m picking up some good skills and I want to see the full cycle through, but if I still feel how I do now a year from now, I’m definitely going to have to leave.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. You are almost half way through a year’s experience as a supervisor. Stay put and get that year under your belt. Then start looking.

  115. Lives in a Shoe*

    My team just finished interviewing the person who will be our big boss, directly supervising most of us. The way our department works, the hiring is done by leadership – but the leadership rotates every two years (why yes, this is academia, why do you ask?). The staff is unanimous about who they would like, for many reasons, both in the managing “down” direction as well as making relationships with other units, which are critical for our work. Leadership has asked for input from us, but we aren’t completely sure how to address two areas that we think they may be overly focused on, missing the bigger picture. Also, we will be the ones who have to live with this person long-term, but someone has to be the hiring manager, I guess! Anyhow, any suggestions for how to frame our feedback in convincing terms?

    1. Thankyouforthehelp*

      If I were in this position I would go with the bigger picture route because you are going to have to live with whomever they hire. Just be honest with your input and not worry so much about what your team thinks they are focused on.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      All you can do is tell them the truth.

      “We need a person who is able to focus on X and Y. In the past people have focused on Unrelated A and B. By focusing on X and Y that serves our department for Reasons C, D and E. So X and Y are super important.”

  116. Becky*

    Anyone have any tips on negotiating salary for a remote role? I live in a HCOL area, and I have two interviews lined up for companies headquartered in LCOL areas. A cursory look at a cost of living calculator shows a pretty big difference. I’m not planning to live here forever, but I do live here now. Ideally I’d like to get a 10% pay bump when I change jobs (at least, since I’m underpaid for my area by that much), but I don’t know if that’s realistic. How do I play this?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      What does your role pay in those LCOL areas? How does it compare to what you make now?

      1. Becky*

        Based on salary data, my current role in the LCOL areas makes what I make now. I should actually be making about 15% more than I am. My industry generally pays a bit less than others.

        If I was actually moving to one of these places, I think I’d be targeting a lateral move salary-wise…but that’s assuming what I was being paid was fair, and that I was actually moving.

  117. Paralegal Part Deux*

    So, I work I law, and my firm has no official employee handbook or anything. I’d like to get a tattoo on my forearm- nothing shocking, provoking or anything like that. I don’t know if I should bring it up first and ask about it or if I should just get it and ask for “forgiveness” afterwards. They’re pretty old school as far as that goes, but I know they won’t fire me for it.

    Thoughts?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Not in the industry, but if they do decide to be conservative about it, would you be willing to live in long sleeves / otherwise cover the tattoo? If so, I’d say get it and if they balk, offer to cover it.
      If you’re /not/ willing to live in long sleeves while at the office or use foundation / tattoo coverup once it’s healed, I’d maybe run it by them ahead of time. It may not be something they’d fire you over, but it may be something that results in you talking to clients.

    2. RagingADHD*

      If you know they won’t fire you for it, go ahead. The worst they can do is ask you to cover it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I know Judges who have tattoos. Look around and see if you notice anyone there with a tattoo, you can do that on the quiet.

  118. Amber Rose*

    Me: We must update our build lists, they’re wrong and it’s messing up inventory counts.
    PM: Updating item descriptions must be the priority then! *Deletes data on 150 inventory items*
    Me: Well, you broke everything. Thanks for wasting your time in doing it and my entire day to fix it.
    PM: *surprised Pikachu face*

    I feel like crying. I’ve been going between fixing this for hours, and trying to get everything running for our new person who is starting Monday, and I’m just dead on my feet.

    1. inkheart*

      Can you check with IT, maybe there is a previous version of the database you could get hold of, like from yesterday or Monday, with the more up-to-date inventory? I know my IT people are wizards at finding “lost” files.

  119. Aprilfools*

    Has anyone that uses Indeed gotten an email recently wanting you to complete a survey and for completing the survey they are going to give you a $10 gift card?

  120. Cardamom Cappuccino*

    I have a job interview for a role that focuses on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) work but not in a direct social services provider role. I am really excited about the position and the firm. I am white-passing bisexual woman, and while marginalized by my different identities, part of me thinks a woman of color would be a better fit for this type of position. The job description emphasized having knowledge of equity issues, which I have from my education and lived experience. Would it help or hinder my prospects if I discussed lived experience, ie disclosing that I have a disability, and how I have overcome adversity, in the interview process?

    1. Higher Ed Kitten Party*

      I would say it would hinder you, only because a more impactful response would be about the impacts of DEI on those who do not have as many privileges as you do, or have a different lived experience than you.

      No one person will ever be able to speak to the experience of every marginalized or system impacted person, but a good DEI leader will have a vast knowledge of the experiences of others well beyond their own identity. If it comes up organically, sure, it probably won’t hurt to mention it, but its more important that you speak to broader concepts as often as possible. Plus it will feel weird and out of touch if you mention being bi instead of speaking to, say, the experiences of system impacted queer people.

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      I think it would likely help you, having worked at a nonprofit that hired with a DEI lens. Lived experience with many different types of marginalization was very important to us and experience with disabilities would have been a plus. Also, in a lot of DEI roles people are expected to be willing and able to openly discuss their own identities, where they have privilege and where they are marginalized, so it’s often an important thing to demonstrate.

  121. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

    Hi! I’m back again….. I’ve been applying for more research analyst positions but have been getting nothing but rejections. Not even getting interviews (except one, and I’m typing this assuming I’m not going to get that job).

    The interview I did have (two for one position) went pretty well. I wasn’t as nervous as I usually am (although that might be thanks to my generic lexapro). Getting it was a boost to me mentally, you know?

    But at one point, one of the interviewers asked me something like “how would you handle doing work for a billion-dollar company instead of a library where you’re getting asked stuff like finding a New York Times cover from 90 years ago?” I didn’t know how to handle this and kind of said that libraries can get really busy and we sometimes have to balance the needs of several people at a time. It’s not always easy. Might not be on the scale of a billion dollar company, but it’s still hard.

    At the first round of interviews, I talked to a recruiter with the law firm and she seemed a lot more understanding about people not having access to the databases they use at the law firm and that there’s a lot of training. I felt really encouraged and excited to move on to the second round. But that comment from one of the interviewers kind of bummed me out, and now I am wondering if I didn’t sell myself correctly.

    How can I better showcase the skills I do have, primarily gained through experience in reference/adult services in public libraries? I don’t have skills in specific databases like Westlaw simply because public libraries don’t have access to them, we aren’t lawyers or in the legal field.

    But I am more than willing to learn, to ask questions, take notes, be open to feedback, and be as adaptable as possible. Libraries are more than just a house for books, but I don’t know how to showcase that.

    Thank you. Y’all have been immensely helpful in this process. :)

    1. my field is fallow*

      “how would you handle doing work for a billion-dollar company instead of a library where you’re getting asked stuff like finding a New York Times cover from 90 years ago?”

      this question feels like the interviewer feels a billion-$ company is important, and maybe you need to be fast & delicate with your work, whereas finding a NYT from a century ago is less important. So: what high-stakes work have you done? Have you been time/details crunched for anything? (research for a politician, say, or getting info for someone who needed to make decisions?)

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        We’ve had patrons who have needed things in a hurry, that’s probably the closest thing I have to compare “billion dollar” law firms to.

        At the library, we don’t do things that are of super high-scale, nobody is going to die or lose a million dollars. That’s just not what we do. But it is just as important.

        This feedback is really good, though, thank you! I know how to better address questions like this in the future – both in terms of prepping for it and possible answers.

    2. All Het Up About It*

      I kind of hate that question and I don’t think you should let that singular question/ situation bum you out. But I’m wondering if he meant it more how will you handle the stress of higher stake requests vs that using different databases is harder.

      I think ideally you would have had clarified his question. Did he think that the tasks themselves would be harder? The stakes higher? Or the tasks just more important? You jumped to easy/hard, but if he meant more like if you couldn’t find the 50 year old newspaper, what happens vs. if you can’t complete the research here, and we loose 10 million dollars, what happens. In that case you can talk about the stakes feel different for everyone involved, to the individuals making the request they are often very important and who knows perhaps important enough to equal 10 million dollars to a company. And you could also have touched on the political ramifications all librarians face. If you anger the wrong patron, suddenly you’ve got the board, the director, the mayor, the city council, questioning you and your job.

      But beyond that specific question, anytime you find yourself thrown by one, I don’t think it’s wrong to ask for clarification of the question. It can either give you time to formulate your answer, actually give you clarity so you answer what they meant to ask vs. how you interpreted it or make them (and possibly other interviewers) realize it’s a really crappy question. Also – do not get hung up on the databases themselves! Why did you become a librarian? Why do you like researching? For instance a former librarian told me she likes solving puzzles and helping people, so she likes being a reference librarian because she feels like she is solving puzzles and helping people. But say you are burned out (I know you are) and the questions don’t seem like puzzles anymore, so you looking for a new job, a new environment, that gives you that same rush and lets you use your research skills, but is going to give you questions that feel like puzzles. And you’ll be helping your co-workers, the greater good because your company sues people making the ice caps melt, or makes life saving medicine or who knows.

      You can make this transition. You CAN. I’d recommend some more practice interviews on really selling why your skills and strengths are transferable, because they are, but if you don’t believe it, there’s a chance interviewers won’t either.

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        Thank you so much for this response!!! It’s really helpful and a great way of re-framing. I wish he had been more clear, or asked another way (in the moment I felt like he was dismissing libraries), but I also could have asked it differently. Could I actually ask “can you clarify that question” or do I need to be more specific in asking for clarification?

        “But say you are burned out (I know you are) and the questions don’t seem like puzzles anymore, so you looking for a new job, a new environment, that gives you that same rush and lets you use your research skills, but is going to give you questions that feel like puzzles. And you’ll be helping your co-workers, the greater good because your company sues people making the ice caps melt, or makes life saving medicine or who knows.”

        Holy shit I could have written this! The burnout is real omg.

        I’m looking for a challenge, to do more than show people how to print things over and over (important though that is) and I love the more in-depth questions that I (don’t often) get from people that requires me to dig in. Puzzles!

        How could I address these skills that I do have in a cover letter, for example? I gotta nail that before getting an interview haha.

        But thank you. :’) I’ll get there eventually and I’m taking the experiences of this interview with me to the next one!

        1. Business Librarian*

          The thing I always found challenging at the reference desk is you never know what you’re going to get. In a business setting, all the questions/puzzles/dilemmas are in the same subject area. In a public library Patron A wants help with finding medical info, Patron B wants genealogy help, Patron C wants a book recommendation, etc. I’d emphasize that you’ve developed the skill to pivot between projects, and to respond to varied demands from varied personalities with varied timelines. That calls for both calm responses to possibly stressed individuals and flexibility, qualities that are waaaay harder to learn than a new database. I’ve been an academic librarian for a number of years and my hat’s off to public librarians.

          1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

            that is very true! part of why i love my job is because we can get a variety of questions in a day. it’s challenging but i also love that aspect. also, people might need different aspects of help, if that makes sense. two people might come in to use our mobile print options, but one of them might need me to stand there and tell them step by step what to do, and others could figure it out on their own if i start them off from our website.

            thank you! :D

            1. Anon Today*

              Sounds like you need to talk about shifting your challenge from the varied research questions to the depth. You can use language like Business Librarian describes to talk about how your current work is challenging you, but then talk about how your ready for more focused types of questions/research projects where you can dig deeper, or feel like they have a bigger impact, or just that the “puzzles” themselves are more challenging.

              There are also several career coach type individuals out there that have methods and tricks for trying to figure out what you love about your job and how to transition. Kerri Twigg and her Career Stories method is one that I’m most familiar with and she has a book. But maybe you need to spend some time breaking down what you do and why you do it and what you want to toss vs. do more of in your next role.

              One of the hardest things about job hunting for many people is selling ourselves. We don’t have an honest accounting of our skills and accomplishments and how to sell those and talk about how they translate to a new role/field.

              1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

                thank you for all of this! i hate selling myself, and it’s even harder when i’m trying to go into a new field. but you’re right in that i have stuff i need to work on, and i appreciate the resources!

                would all this be appropriate to mention in a cover letter, or should i save this for the interview?

  122. Chi chan*

    I want to ask for a change in my job title. How do I go about it? Is it possible for a company to change titles? Think data analyst to business analyst.

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Depends on the business. In a large company or org, there are likely a lot of rules around what responsibilities and pay go with each title. In a small business, titles are often pretty flexible.

    2. Six for the Truth*

      Seconding that it depends on the business, however, regardless of the size of your org or its culture, the person to ask is your manager.

      Possibly in a very vague “out of curiosity, what’s the title change process here?” way, possibly in a more detailed way, depending on your relationship with them.

  123. Thankyouforthehelp*

    This may sound like a silly question but when people talk about working with recruiters are they talking about private recruiters that they may have hired or recruiters from staffing type agencies?

    1. ArtK*

      People use the term for both in-house and independent recruiters who may work on their own or for a company that employers contract to find people. I tend to use “head hunter” for the outside ones and “recruiter” for the in-house ones. Your best bet is the context in the post, but feel free to ask which they mean.

    2. Six for the Truth*

      Not a silly question at all! From most to least common:

      A. People say “recruiter” and they mean “internal recruiter,” that is, someone who is an employee at Mike’s Teapots and is trying to recruit teapot engineers to Mike’s Teapots. This is also called an “in-house” recruiter or a “company” recruiter. They are more likely to be focused on the success of the place they work for – they typically can’t connect a candidate with any other organization.

      B. People say “recruiter” and they mean “external recruiter” or “head hunter,” that is, someone who either works on their own or for a company that was hired by Mike’s Teapots (and possibly many others) and is trying to recruit teapot engineers to go work at Mike’s Teapots (or elsewhere). Sometimes these recruiters also work for staffing agencies, and expect “their” teapot engineers to be paid by “their” staffing company while working for Mike’s Teapots. The advantage of working with these recruiters is that they may be able to help you connect with many different teapot engineering departments at different places. The downside is that they may be less focused and more incentivized to get anybody at all in the door and into a seat at a company so they can get paid by that company. They may also connect candidates to lower-paying or harder-to-fill roles.

      C. Very rarely, if people are very high-level (or being scammed), they say “recruiter” and they mean “person hired and paid by a job seeker to connect them to opportunities in their industry, a bit like a job coach.” If you are a job candidate, this isn’t all familiar to you, and you’re paying a “recruiter,” you probably want to look for opportunities elsewhere.

  124. Retail Not Retail*

    Can HR kind of demand I speed up my recovery? I was out for 3 months following a surgery and came back with restrictions for an additional 3 months.

    It’s been 3 weeks and they are clearly frustrated with my restrictions since there is little work I can do. They’ve asked for a more detailed return to work release letter but I wonder if that will be enough – it’s only been a month since my last appointment and this is a slow recovery kind of surgery.

    What is HR’s obligation and what is mine here? I don’t want to jeopardize my recovery by doing too much but there really aren’t many tasks to be done here that are low impact/sedentary.

    1. Susie*

      Have a very clear and honest talk with your doctor about what you need to do to recovery safely and fully. Tell them what kind of things they would want you to do that would hinder/slow your recovery and hopefully your doctor can write a detailed plan that will prevent you from having to do jobs that will cause delays. Really be completely honest so that you won’t be forced to do something that cause you further injury or delay your injury.

      1. Retail Not Retail*

        I thought I was thorough with him and the letter seemed like it covered everything but HR feels like it didn’t. I just hope they can send me or fax HR an updated one without an appointment (the doc is 3 hours away).

      2. Retail Not Retail*

        Can HR say no, these restrictions are too much and tell me to come back to work when they’re lifted?

        I’m doing the ONE sedentary job that doesn’t involve money or a computer and that’s to cover somebody’s vacation so it’s over after next week. I just think there is no work for me to do.

        2. WellRed*

          If you can’t do the work they need you too, what do you think you should do while at work? Can you suggest some things (even if it’s busy work) that need doing? Otherwise, I’m wondering if you should still be on leave?

          1. Retail Not Retail*

            I think I should still be on leave – our “busy work” involves more twisting and bending than I should be doing. I don’t know if HR will agree though.

            1. WellRed*

              Okay. Do you have a supervisor or boss? What do they say? Ultimately, if you can’t work you can’t regardless of HRs in medical opinion. Maybe you can suggest revisiting it a monthly basis? I can’t speak to any legal aspects of how this should work. I’m also guessing they’d have trouble filling your role so it would be foolish to get rid of you.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Adding, if you have a good boss, loop the boss in that this bs is going on.

  125. mreasy*

    We are “returning to office” one day per week starting next week. While I know that our HR isn’t allowing anyone unvaccinated into the office, what they won’t confirm is whether these people will be allowed to keep their jobs. Apparently they are allowing “health & medical” exemptions, but knowing them they’re not asking for doctor’s notes. Given how unhappy so much of our staff is about going back to commutes & office distractions, I anticipate there will be a simmering fury at those who chose not to be unvaccinated (aka did the wrong thing) and now therefore get the privilege of not having to come in. It doesn’t help that one person I work with indirectly who is a condescending know-it-all is one of these people. HR just doesn’t even seem to have a plan to share what they’re requiring of unvaccinated people, what their standard for “fully vaccinated” is (there is a whole cohort who are vaxxed & not boosted but don’t want the booster because they had covid, which ????). I am exec level so trying to model leadership grace but WOW will I be angry if this jerk gets to avoid a 2 hour commute and office clothes just because he won’t do right by his fellow humans.

    1. mreasy*

      The question being – how do I deal / how would you deal / should I pursue further with our mostly useless HR?

    2. Cj*

      My husband got covid the week he was supposed to have his booster shot. He was advised to delay his booster, as he would have immunity for at least a few months from having covid. He could stretch out his immunity by getting the booster later. It sounds like they’re going to allow everybody over 50 to get a fourth shot now, but you’re still stretching out your immunity if you delay your third and fourth shot if you’ve had covid. So it actually does make sense.

      1. mreasy*

        That makes sense, but that isn’t the reason being given here – they are worried about getting too many antibodies? And it’s not one but a handful of people. Thanks everyone, I’m just aggravated. The passing the buck to HR is just an example of how wishy washy everyone is being. My manager is the division head & is well aware of my perspective – and shares it – but the hand wringing about what we can and can’t require is coming from the c-suite.

    3. WellRed*

      Have you actually spoken up at all to ask about the plan or express your very real concerns? If everyone is just leaving it to HR that’s kind of passing the buck.
      More practical note: let go if your hatred for the asshat. It’s not productive and is probably harmful to your well being.

    5. Reb*

      Yeah, in my country you’re not eligible for a shot until 3 months after you had covid.

      I help myself cope with unvaccinated people by reminding myself that if I was unlucky enough to believe what they do, I wouldn’t get vaccinated either. Lets me feel a bit sorry for anti-vaxxers instead of (or as well as) angry with them.

  126. WestFront*

    Have you gotten an unsolicited email from a recruiter on your work email? How would you handle it? It has happened to me several times but I felt that it wasn’t appropriate to respond on a work email.

    Now, on my personal email, I would have politely responded. But not my work email. What would you do?

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I would not respond to someone who sent this to my work email. I mean, who does that?

      Just treat it like spam and block/delete.

      1. TechWorker*

        Yea – if you’re not interested definitely block and delete. If it’s actually interesting, then respond from your personal mail and ask them to avoid using work email going forwards.

    3. BRR*

      All the time. It’s easier for recruiters to find the emails of people who might be interested. Either ignore it, tell then you’re not interested, or send a message from your personal email if you’re interested. I don’t see it as a big deal anymore.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I used to forward those to my personal address if they were interesting, and reply from there. Theoretically the forward could be seen/tracked by IT, but IT does not care and has better things to do than run around tattling to people’s bosses about recruiter emails.

      And by the time anyone would be going through my sent email archive, I’d be gone already.

    6. Nightengale*

      Yes, multiple. I consider them spam. Then there was the one who called my work about something about a “reference.” I thought maybe it was a call for a reference for someone I used to work with. No, it was a cold call asking me to “refer” someone for a position.

  127. Me--Blargh!*

    I had a Zoom interview recently with a small company for a combination coordinator and executive assistant role. They asked me to take an assessment where I had to look at drawings of situations and write about what the people in the pictures were thinking. This seemed like some kind of psych test. I just wrote little stories and tried to make them as entertaining as possible for the person who would read them while trying not to be weird, although it was tempting, haha.

    Has anyone ever had to do a test like that for a job? What’s the weirdest pre-employment assessment you’ve ever had to take?

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Lol what?? That is odd.

      I once had to take a test for a retail job where I was asked “Agree / disagree: it is okay to steal from my employer.”

    2. Sherm*

      I know I would have been tempted to let my creative side fly :D

      My oddest test was one where it was written “There are no right or wrong answers” but then the questions were along the lines of “Do you a) listen to other people’s opinions and work collaboratively to find a solution that satisfies everyone, or b) insist that you are right and stand your ground until you get your way?”

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        It was sooooo hard to hold back. I found it difficult to take the thing seriously—it had nothing to do with anything in the job description unless they were looking for someone creative—and I wanted to write the weirdest stuff I possibly could. I was good and did not, lol.

        I think I’ve taken the test you’re talking about. Or something similar.

    3. Me--Blargh!*

      0_0

      I just checked my email and they want me to interview with the director. Maybe they liked my stories, lol.

      (Please let this pay enough for me to move to ExpensiveEastCoastCity and not have to live in a dumpster with 15 other people.)

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like they were trying to figure out how you read what is going on around you. Are you negative? Does everything somehow hurt YOU? Are people suspicious to you?

      It wasn’t a test but I had one interview where I was informed I would need to attend seances late at night. I said, “good bye!!!”.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It was a museum. They used the ghosts to help drive up business. But my sense of things was that someone had crossed over the line and was actually believing the stories they were selling. Hence actual seances.

    5. unpleased*

      I have for retail jobs. They wanted to know if I could pick out a hazard like a spill quickly or interpret the tone of a scene generally. One of the photos was showed a pallet left in an aisle with a box sticking out in a way that can injure a customer. If a position is one in which your judgement is required to keep people safe it’s not an unusual test, but some of the photos were also happy things, like what is the fun thing happening in the store in this moment?

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Ohhhh, maybe it was meant to see if you could interpret the tone of a scene. That makes more sense.

        It was just so strange. I’ve never seen anything like it. Oh well, it was designed by some Harvard psychologist, so whatever. All I care about is 1) can I do the job without struggling and maybe actually learn something; 2) does it pay well enough for me not to have to live like a college kid; 3) will I hate it.

  128. TechWorker*

    From various conversations, I know that I’m underpaid. There’s no big conspiracy to this – I’ve just progressed quickly and my company to some extent pays for ‘years service’ (though not explicitly). I am paid ~15-20k less than others at my grade:responsibility, including earning 15-20k less than someone who reports to me (!! And honestly doesn’t do an amazing job,,,,).

    Looking for advice on how to express this professionally – I am also senior enough to be involved in budget discussions and to understand that to some extent the budget is not there…. But also feels like that shouldn’t be my problem!

    1. TechWorker*

      Sorry extra detail – the obvious answer is to quit and work elsewhere. I’m trying to avoid that – we have a pretty great culture overall and my manager is brilliant – I respect them loads and we work well together.

      1. ArtK*

        That’s *an* answer and not necessarily *the* answer. There should be a lot of resources here discussing how to prepare and ask for a raise. It sounds like you have done a lot of that, although it might help to get something about people in similar roles at other companies in your area.

        Whatever you do, do *not* get apologetic and go into “well, I know that it’s not really in the budget…” That’s undermining yourself; you’ll lose before you ever begin. You don’t control the budget and they may well have reserve resources that they could tap.

  129. stitchinthyme*

    This is about someone else’s workplace, not mine, but I hope it’s relevant enough to post here.

    Basically, I recently found out that a surgery I need has been approved by my insurance company, but the doctor’s office has still not contacted me to schedule it. The scheduling department never picks up their phone, and their voice mail message says that due to COVID and a “transition” they’re going through, it may take up to 5 business days to respond to messages. It also asks people not to leave multiple messages as it may take them even longer to respond.

    I left them a message this past Monday, 4 days ago. I totally get that I have no idea what their actual circumstances are — for all I know, the entire surgical scheduling department could be out with COVID or something. However, the radio silence is driving me nuts, and I really do need to get this scheduled, as the insurance approval has an end date and I have some travel plans coming up that I will have to work around. I don’t want to have the surgery right after traveling in case I might have unknowingly been exposed to COVID during the trip, nor do I want to travel too soon after the surgery because I’ll still be recovering.

    So I can think of two possible options for handling this on Monday, which will be 5 business days since I left my message:

    1. Call the front desk at the practice so I can explain the situation and see if they can get me an actual live person who can help me. At the very least, they might be able to tell me what the heck is going on with the schedulers.

    2. Go there in person and do the same.

    I don’t want to be pushy or obnoxious, and I want to be sensitive to the fact that they probably have circumstances I am not aware of, but at the same time, I have been more than patient already and they haven’t even done so much as contact me to let me know when they might actually get to me. And as I said, I really, really need to get this scheduled so I can figure out how to work around my upcoming plans.

    1. stitchinthyme*

      Kinda forgot to ask my actual question above: just wondering whether going in or calling would be better, and what to say so I don’t come across as rude.

      1. How About That*

        Go in if it’s not too inconvenient. You have been more than patient. They have been rude to you! Scheduling surgery is a big deal!

        1. WellRed*

          I agree. Honestly no matter what’s going on there, they could handle this better even if it’s a temp answering the phone.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I understand that you are stressed, but they said 5 days and it has only been 4 days. They are not jerking you around, so far they are being consistent to the estimate they gave.
      Every single patient they are scheduling has exactly the same important stuff going on in their lives as you do. They all need their surgeries just as much as you do.

      If you don’t hear from them by Day 6 (Tuesday), call again.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        And what good will that do when they’re not answering their phones?

        I do get it. I know I’m no more important than any of their other patients. But as someone else said, they could handle this better, even if it just meant getting a temp to answer the phones and explain the situation to people.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Well, you said you don’t want to be pushy, rude, or obnoxious. I think allowing the full time they already told you it would take, is kind of the minimum standard of not being obnoxious and pushy.

          If that isn’t actually your priority, then do whatever you feel like. Bang on the door, yell at people. Get it all out.

          I’m sure they are used to it by now.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            No matter what I do, I am not going to “bang on the door” or “yell at people”. Aside from the fact that that’s just not something I would do, I’m also very aware of the fact that these particular people have something I want very much, and pissing them off is not the way to get it.

            And since I called fairly early in the day last Monday, I consider Monday one of the five business days they had to respond, so calling them back or going in this coming Monday seems reasonable to me.

    3. EngineerGal*

      Go in-my husband just had the same situation and that’s the only thing that worked

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Go in.

      A former boss used to talk about the concept of “being a nice nuisance”. This is where a person is totally polite, listens to what is being said respectfully, but just does. not. go. away.

      “Hi, my name is NSNR. I left a message about scheduling a surgery. I know you guys are busy and I am so sorry to bother you. I was really hoping you could help me because I am in a pickle. My insurance approval has an end date of Y. I heard your message about a five days response time, and I am so sorry things are backlogged so badly. But it’s been six days I have time crunch of Y deadline and I am growing worried. I was hoping you’d be able to help me find out when my surgery is. Can you help me or point me to someone who can?”

      Notice how you do not mention your trip. This is all about getting insurance to pay for it. Notice how you are striving to appear “worried” as opposed to “angry”. It’s okay to be angry/miffed but don’t let them see that. It won’t motivate them to help you faster.

      If they hem and haw be cheerfully accommodating.
      Them: “Oh you need to see Bob but he is on lunch.”
      You: “No problem. I can wait right here until he returns.”

      Them: “You are on Sue’s case load but she is not here today.”
      You.: “Okay, when will she be back in the office? Can I get her email or direct dial?”

      I had a doc’s office who sent a medical bill into collection by mistake. It was weeks (probably 2 months) of going around and around. I went to the office and cheerfully told them that I would sit in their waiting room until they were able to type up the note I needed. Yeah. I finally got my note. I did sit there for a few hours though. Bring a book.

    5. stitchinthyme*

      Don’t know if anyone is still reading, but I just called the front desk. I explained the situation — I wasn’t rude or pushy and I didn’t say anything about having plans, just stuck to the bare facts: my surgery has been approved and I’ve been trying to get in touch with the scheduling department, but they don’t answer their phones or respond to messages. She took my info and said that if I don’t hear back from them by tomorrow, to give her a call back. So here’s hoping.

  130. How About That*

    Sick leave is for medical appointments too. I have a lot of sick leave and just take the whole day when I have testing, some of which is tiring and involves traveling to have the test done. In the Feds it can also be used to care for a sick family member.

    Never feel badly about using what you are entitled to. No explanation needed.

  131. Miss. Bianca*

    I’ve posted here last month how my boss refused to go over my performance review with me and got nasty and combative when I asked him to explain why he gave me (and everyone on the team) a 3, and what a 4 or 5 rating would have looked like. He ended up apologizing to me later that day for being defensive and combative. He’s also the manager who refused to tell me what the difference is between my level and a senior level (the next level up from me).

    Anyway, we had a town hall meeting today with the whole company that listed the promotions everyone got and all the awards and ‘kudos’ people got. 80% of the people who got promoted were already VPs and upper management…
    My morale is so down and I feel so over it. I work closely with a VP, who has been promoted 3 times in the past 2 years, the last 2 (including today) were both at VP levels. He was bugging me about something and I’m thinking to myself, “I’ve gone over stuff like this multiple times in the past year, why am I doing this? So YOU can get promoted again in 6 months?” And of course, my terrible manager got an honorable mention for some award.

    I feel very defeated. However there are good things about my job, it’s remote, it’s not stressful, the pay is actually decent and I got an almost $4K merit raise this year. I’m mostly annoyed at how my boss spoke to me that day and how he’s so oblivious to everything.

    Can anyone relate or give me any advice?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes I have found it helpful to put myself in the boss’ shoes.
      So in your case, I think that if I find that I have to tell someone, that they am getting a bunch of 3s on the eval. I probably don’t feel good about that. I probably don’t understand why I think I have to do things this way. I might even be hating my job atm and looking for a rock to crawl under. I may sound mad at the receiver of this news, but I am actually mad at the company and maybe even mad at myself for not fighting harder for my employee. But the truth is that I don’t know how to fight harder. Okay, peach. Now I feel stupid on top of feeling angry.

      If you can try to picture you boss as feeling in over their head maybe that will grant you some relief in your own upset. BUT it can also serve to remind you that this is not the only employer on earth. We want to blame our bosses for all that is wrong but sometimes that is incorrect- all that is wrong comes from Above and they are just doing what they are told- or think they are being told to do. In short, it could be just that your company sucks and your boss is feeling his own version of broken and defeated, just like you.

  132. Frankie Bergstein*

    Today was the last day of my job! Woohoo! I’d NEEDED, desperately, to move on for a few months now. I was feeling really, really burned out in February because of that. Is this relateable to anyone on here?

    I’m the kind of person who never really feels how bad the job was – or what issues particularly bothered her – until it’s over. Is this just me?

    Just now, I realized that the job was never the problem — it was my Team Lead. They’re, well, anal without the warmth or effectiveness to make it less annoying. They’re a really lovely person just a LOT to work with, but I feel so bad for feeling this way! It’d be OK if the projects were amazing, if they evolved a bit faster, if there was something new to learn by working with my Team Lead — but there isn’t. The downsides aren’t that bad though; shouldn’t I be able to tolerate this? It’s work, after all, not something I’m doing for fun in my spare time.

    Here’s what I find hard:

    -Nothing is quite right. Everything is so detailed and depends on everything else. Discussions are overwhelming because there’s so much detail, and it takes weeks to make decisions.
    -The Team Lead can’t differentiate between important and unimportant decisions, so EVERYTHING becomes highly important and takes multiple conversations.
    -I feel bad not asking their input on things, but when I just go get things done without consulting them, they go very fast.
    -This person is a little disorganized. Not terribly, but sometimes things slip through the cracks.
    -his person doesn’t share information or come up with project management systems for very complicated projects.
    -They are a smidgen self-absorbed, but I think I’m probably at BEC stage.

    Any advice for not getting to BEC stage and addressing these sorts of things before I feel the need to change jobs? Has anyone experienced something similar?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      The team lead can’t manage the people or projects. She’s a bottleneck in the works. Why would you stay at a job where work flows stagnate? It’s very stressful finding work-arounds in a setting like this and there can be a feeling that one must “cover” for the boss and not let on how stressful things are. All this does is help the situation to fester and grow worse.

      It’s okay to believe there is no reason this will change any time soon and it’s okay to leave to go to a place where you can grow and develop as a employee.

      Yes, when in the thick of it then it can be very hard to identify what is wrong. Stepping back can help with clarity on what is going haywire. Now that you have seen this, it will probably never get by you for so long again. You will recognize it much sooner and act sooner.
      This is a person who can’t prioritize, tends to default toward disorganization rather than organization , HOARDS INFORMATION (this is big, this is Not Good), and they tend to be self-absorbed. The last characteristic will be their unraveling. Leading people means you have to get over yourself and think of your people. She can’t do this part.

      My solution on things like this is to identify it sooner and get out sooner. It’s too much work to fix bad or poor bosses. Therapy might help some of them, but at my rate of pay I am not their therapist.

  133. Yellow Rose*

    I’ve been working with my HR department on getting an ADA accommodation for time off for medical appointments, and they have been great. I have been having issues with my primary care doctor not understanding ADA is not the same as FMLA.
    I’ve heard from my HR rep that the doctor’s office has called them, but the Rep hadn’t listened to their voicemail yet. HR thought it strange the doc would call them unsolicited. Is this unusual? Should I worry about anything?
    My doc and I do not have the best relationship…we live in a small town with a large population of folks with…self induced disabilities, to put it politely. Doc thinks I’m seeking disability payments, which I am not. Just time off for specialist visits for a trio of ADA covered illnesses and perhaps a larger monitor due to vision loss.
    Any advice from the Commentariat?

    1. Observer*

      Can you find another doctor? This particular doctor sounds like an idiot. And I’d also worry about the quality of care I would be getting from them.

    2. OtterB*

      Do you have a specialist lined up yet? Maybe they can help with the ADA accommodation request.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Since HR has been great and your doc has been blah, then I would go back to HR and find out what the doc asked before doing anything.

      Don’t beat yourself up with worry until you find out. It could be that they called for a fax or email address or some other similarly obvious thing that just escaped them for whatever reason. I work in a different setting/arena and I am stunned by the professionals who call and ask the most basic of questions. I mean it’s my job to answer them and I do. But I lived under an illusion that professionals never did stuff like this. Boy, was I WRONG. I see highly paid people who routinely forget appointments/paperwork and so on.

      1. Yellow Rose*

        Thank you for your replies. Yes, this doc is an idiot, confirmed by the ARPN who actually got me the referrals to the premier hospital in my state for my condition. I’ve also been advised there really aren’t any good docs within a 75 mile radius from where we live, so that’s a struggle. If I were wealthy, I’d fund the ARPN’s further education for an MD credential, they’re that good.

        I’m sure any practitioner versed in the auto-immune conditions I suffer from will have no qualms about certifying me worthy of accommodations; one of them is disfiguring and affects my vision. The other component of the condition affects metabolism, and almost every other system in my body. It makes me want to crawl out of my skin.
        I was diagnosed years ago, in another state. The local doc is just a gatekeeper who is not particularly knowledgeable about the conditions and is certainly not cutting edge. He has accused me of being a methamphetamine user looking to collect Disability payments.

        What really creeped me out about the call to my employer is I did not give them contact details and I work in a highly regulated industry requiring particular clearances and certifications. Fortunately, I do have a bit of professional capital at the job, and don’t worry about losing my position unless this licensed and credentialed underperformer somehow convinces them my illness could cause me to become unstable.

        It will be interesting to hear what he has to say to my HR Department.

        Thank you for your consideration.

        ps ~ This position I have also qualifies as a Friday Good News…I have been out of the workforce for years due to this condition and was thrilled to be offered this opportunity. This is more than a job, it’s also in an industry that serves my family’s main hobby; I really don’t consider what I do ‘work’. I have also never had a better employer. I am incredibly fortunate in that respect.

  134. onyxzinnia*

    I’m curious for those job hunting, is anyone else facing extensive interview processes in a supposedly hot market? I’m averaging six interview rounds and a presentation or assignment per organization all while still trying to juggle my full-time job. Last week I was rejected as a final round candidate by three different companies so maybe I’m just burnt out on the whole experience.

    They say job hunting is a job in itself, but this seems over the top for companies that are not your Amazons/Googles of the world. Is this the expected norm now or am I just looking for new opportunities in the wrong places?

    1. Elizabeth West*

      SIX interviews?!?!

      That’s excessive. I’d probably balk at any more than three (for something high-level or specialized), and I wouldn’t do any spec work that took more than a few hours, tops. That’s what a portfolio is for.

      1. onyxzinnia*

        Yes! I thought it was a one off, but it’s been almost every organization I’ve spoken over the last 6 months. These are generally senior manager/lead level roles if that makes a difference.

        General Process:
        Recruiter>Hiring Manager>Department Head/CEO>Portfolio/Presentation>2-4 Colleagues>References

        I’ve been comparing it to school/college days when your teacher gave you an assignment to complete over winter break without realizing that all the other teachers are also giving assignments for the “break”.

        1. Can't think of a funny name*

          Are these all on different days and in-person? I am applying to 1 company and so far I’ve talked to the recruiter (phone and email)>hiring manager (TEAMS video)>colleague (TEAMS video). So I’m up to 3 people so far…I have an in-person office visit and interviews coming up…I will be meeting multiple people but they are going to be back-to-back meetings. The references part of your process shouldn’t even involve you, right? Just give them a list with contact details? But since this is the first company I applied to I guess I’m not worn out…probably by 6 months in I would be sick of it like you are! And this is a senior manager role.

          1. onyxzinnia*

            Mine are all virtual since most of the roles I’m looking at are remote. Most are on different days, although sometimes the colleague video calls are back to back on the same day. I should have been more specific, I meant providing the references at the end at the request of two organizations.

            Hence the cycle for each opportunity takes about a month, 1.5 months. Sigh.

  135. Waiting on Trial*

    My spouse was indicted on federal charges in the spring of 2020. Due to COVID, red tape, and some high-profile cases taking precedence on the docket, they still don’t have a trial date. They are unable to work their pre-arrest job due to restrictions on the bond (similar to parole, but pre-trial) and unable to do jobs requiring in-person work because of health issues.

    We are beyond broke. I just found papers showing that they are being sued by AmEx for non-payment. My income covers high-deductible health insurance, mortgage, and groceries. We’ve exhausted savings to pay taxes, cars, utilities, and clothes.

    I am putting pride aside to ask — what remote work can you suggest? Background as a small-business owner, background in veterinary medicine, working proficiency in Spanish and native English speaker. US Eastern time zone-based.

    Thank you.

    1. WellRed*

      Some sort of customer service or call center rep? I know that sucks. And you only asked for work advice but do you need more than one car right now? Used cars are in high demand right now.

    2. OtterB*

      Somebody here (I think) talked about transcription jobs recently. You’d want to find a reputable employer to work with.

      1. WellRed*

        Oh my roommate does medical transcription. I wonder if there something similar in veterinary work.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Not sure if this is what you are looking for, and this post will go into moderation b/c of the links, but when it emerges you can try the following sites that have been mentioned previously on AAM that offer home-based work:

      We Work Remotely (www.weworkremotely.com)
      Working Nomads (www.workingnomads.co)
      Jobspresso (jobspresso.co/remote-work/)(for programming/design/program mgmt/marketing jobs)
      Amylynn/Annika (www.amylynn.org/home/)
      Dream Home Based Work (www.dreamhomebasedwork.com)
      Rev.com
      National Capital Contracting (www.nccsite.com/remote-transcription-opportunities)

    1. WoodswomanWrites*

      Yikes. I totally agree about an update, and I hope one of us will remember to respond at the time of year when Alison asks what updates readers would like to see. This would be great to include in her list.

  137. contemplating contractor*

    I left my old job for a new one around three months ago on good terms. I am now being asked by my former employer if I’m interested in doing contract work for three weeks to cover an employee while they’re out. I was originally open to it, and I told them “maybe” and that I’d need more info on what the hours expected of me are since I can really only work weekends/nights. I feel like depending on how light the work is, I’d be fine doing it – but seeing Allison’s response on old letters like the “my boss wants me to do contract work after I leave for a new job” from 2012 makes me apprehensive. Has anyone done this and how did it turn out??

    1. WellRed*

      I haven’t done it and overall I agree it’s best to make a clean break. However. Is it really three weeks? I might consider that but make sure you are well paid.

    2. OtterB*

      I haven’t tried it, but I think Alison’s comments were about people who were not making a break with the old job and were trying to keep doing it while getting settled at the new job. What you’re describing is not quite the same. You’ve presumably settled in at the new job, and this is a time-limited situation. So if you can agree on workload/hours, it seems like this doesn’t come with the built-in problems of continuing to contract for the old job when you just left.

      Make sure that if your new job requires you to get approval for moonlighting that you’re covered there.

  138. Meh*

    My partner’s mother works cleaning offices and rental units for a real estate firm. They’ve been messing around with her payment and she’s generally taken advantage of (she’s uneducated and quite naive even though shes 60).

    My question is her employment classification. She’s paid as a contractor but I wonder if there’s a case to be made that she’s an employee.

    Can someone give me their thoughts?

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      The IRS has contractor vs employee guidelines on their website you should consult. I’m a bit skeptical that a cleaner with one main employer would be a contractor in general, but it depends on the specifics. It’s ultimately going to be on her to speak up and fight with the company to reclassify her, which can be difficult, so you may be better off helping her look for a new job.

  139. Alexis Rosay*

    Tl;dr Would it be weird to give a small gift to someone from whose decisions could benefit me financially, when I have a history of giving small gifts to said person?

    Background: I founded an educational program at a former job, but I burned out and moved on. I became friendly acquaintances with “Sandra”, who took the project over after I left. That program meant a lot to me and Sandra has done a wonderful job keeping it going, so to show my appreciation I used to give her a small gift (usually a modest gift card to a chain near her office) every year. Because of the pandemic and some personal issues, I forgot to do so for the past two years and feel a bit bad. I’d like to send Sandra a gift card now, but one thing has changed: a product I have since worked on has come to market and I would gain financially if Sandra asked her employer to purchase it. I don’t want my gift to be seen as a bribe–I’d give it even if I knew she would not recommend my product. Will it look odd if I give her something? (I would be fine vis-a-vis company ethics guidelines with a gift of this size.)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I dunno how strict the ethics are in your arena. But my rule of thumb is “If I feel the need to ask the question, then the answer is no, do not do this.”

      I would use the last two years ease the path to just continue not gifting her.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Just to keep the lines clear, I would recommend switching to a short, sincere note of appreciation.

  140. Trixie*

    Any fans of MS Teams in the AAM hive? I’m more familiar with Google forms, and tried to use Teams forms. Specifically, creating a form that sorts responses automatically. For example, if creating a form with four options of tea pots, the excel file with responses automatically breaks sorts them. (Listing responses grouped by the option.) Otherwise, I am continually sorting the updated excel sheet which is tedious.

    1. Living That Teacher Life*

      I am NOT a fan. I moved from a Google district to a Microsoft district, and everything is more complicated, tedious, and non-intuitive. Use Google if you have the option!

  141. First Time Poster*

    My roommate is also my coworker and… it’s kind of bringing me down. They’re always complaining (about work, about money, about friends, about family… you get the picture) and putting themselves down or saying negative things. I’m not a sunny and positive type and it is still too much for me. They’re going to therapy and I feel I’m not comfortable bringing myself down to try to pull someone else up who might just be in a bad place right now. And I know they’re complaining to tons of other friends and coworkers too… I’m changing jobs in a few months and they’re moving out around then as well so I just want advice for coping with this until then. Thanks in advance y’all!

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      I wish I had better advice, but I was in this situation and the only things that helped me were 1) headphones and 2) making more friends so I spent less time at home. Good luck!

    2. Sloanicota*

      Since you’re going to be moving out in a few months anyway it might work to name the problem kindly. This person is probably unaware of how much they’re dumping on you and, although you can’t really make them feel better, you can teach them not to do this to you. “I’m sorry, I’m at my limit for work talk today, I’m going to go watch TV in my room,” Or “sometimes complaining about things just makes me feel worse, I’m going to go X/Y” – a few times of making it unsatisfying to try and vent to you and this person could shift behavior. Captain Awkward has suggested “that sounds tough, what do you think you’re going to do about it” as a good way to recuse yourself from feeling like you need to fix anything, if that’s part of your problem, and you want to express empathy. This may also be a good thing to discuss and roleplay with your therapist if setting healthy boundaries is something you’re working on.

      1. First Time Poster*

        Thanks! It helps to have some scripts to follow… I have started being very blunt and saying things like “I have had a long day, I’m not up for these negative conversations” and straight up saying that I don’t want to hear their complaining and pointing out how frequently they do it. It’s definitely a process and not an instant fix, so I’ll remember to stay consistent. I love boundaries and drawing them but this person is truly testing how blunt I need to be to get my point across…

  142. Invisible today*

    So this is most likely the effect of having escaped a ridiculously toxic workplace, but I simply can’t get myself to trust my new boss. He was a senior peer who rapidly moved up 2 levels to be a director. He’ been mostly reasonable so far – respectful, helpful, etc… and yet I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop. (A similar thing happened in previous toxic workplace and director turned into a raging flaming power tripping monster over a few years).

    I find myself always being guarded and trying to document / protect my tail when talking to him about work (and again, he’s always been reasonable). It might get easier if I knew him better, but can’t even bring myself to small talk about general stuff like weekend plans (didn’t have this problem with his predecessor nor run into this issue with his boss).

    I’m hoping that my instincts are wrong… (the odds of finding that much crazy again HAVE to be low, right ?). I hope that I’m not coming off as being too weird – that it just reads as strong workplace boundaries or a mild personality quirk rather than an issue to be addressed. Just wanted to vent to random internet strangers today.

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      I feel this so much – I was like this for months at my previous job. What helped me was taking a minute before every meeting with my boss to remind myself that my boss had proven to be a kind, helpful supervisor so far and that I should give them the benefit of the doubt. I even made myself a list of small talk I could use if we had time at the end of our 1:1s (what are you doing this weekend, have you tried this restaurant, etc). Eventually (after months of interaction) it came naturally, and the dreaded shoe has yet to fall.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      I wasn’t at your level, but a few years ago, when I moved (i.e., fled) from a job in one office to an entirely different job in another office (of the same government agency), it took at least 6 months to get marginally comfortable with everyone, and probably close to 9-12 months before I felt “safe” again. I’m sorry you’re going through this, but just give yourself time.

  143. Chockobox*

    I have a campus interview next week with panel interviews, a teaching demonstration, and an interview with an administrator. It’s the longest interview I’ve ever been on.

    How do I remember to stay in my body throughout this? No, that’s not quite my question. May you could tell me stories about what you remember about getting through the interviews.

    1. Invisible today*

      TBH that sounds exhausting. Deep breaths and one step at a time. Interviews always feel a bit surreal. If you think its going to be a problem, maybe ground yourself with sips of water and deep breaths? Good luck !!

    3. Filosofickle*

      I’m not in academia, but I can speak to long interview days — for me something that helps is remembering to advocate for myself. You don’t have to wait for them to offer what you need. If you need water, a bathroom break, or just 5 minutes to breathe between things, speak up — and do so early before you get overwhelmed. Carve out bits of time to clear your mind and make sure you have enough water and snacks to sustain you. Hopefully they’ll be mindful of this already but if not you still get to ask for what you need.

  144. Chirpy*

    I’m sure no one will see this, but can I tell my boss that unless he hires more people for my department, I’m going to quit? I’m starting to have health issues because of the stress and since this is retail, I can’t afford to go to a doctor or call out sick. I work alone half the week and the next department over that’s supposed to help cover phone calls doesn’t. And gives me excuses. I can’t even go to the bathroom without being interrupted. They need 4-5 people in this department and will honestly be screwed if I leave as I also have a specialty they need.

    If I can’t find an affordable apartment in less than a month, he’ll lose me anyway. This job doesn’t pay enough and it sucks, but trying to find both an apartment and a better job to be able to afford a new apartment at the same time was worse.

    1. PollyQ*

      I wouldn’t bother. Spend your energy job-hunting for something that pays you enough to live on and doesn’t give you all this stress. If they’re screwed when you leave, then they’re screwed. Not your problem.

    2. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

      Well, even if you did, how long is a “reasonable” time for your boss to hire people? What if your boss only hired one more person? What would it REALLY take to make this a job worth staying in?

      Your better bet is to focus on the job/apartment search and just do the bare minimum that YOU can reasonably do. What if you just didn’t worry about staying on top of all your work because it’s not reasonable? Is your boss actually going to fire you? So what if work starts piling up — do what it takes to make your boss feel the pain of the department being understaffed. So what if complains come in? You’re on the way out.

      1. Chirpy*

        The problem is, it involves live animals. I’m already letting everything else slide to take care of them, the animals don’t deserve to be hurt because we’re too short staffed. I came in this morning to find an injury that might have been prevented if someone who knew what they were doing had been there to keep an eye on them last night, too.

        1. Dragonfly7*

          Is there someone to whom you can report animal neglect, either inside your organization or in local government?

          1. Chirpy*

            They aren’t really neglected, it’s just I’m the only one stressing about them only having a barebones evening check by someone who isn’t whichever random person I found outside the department who isn’t going to know anything past “make sure they have water”. The injury was one got aggressive and picked on several others, but you’d have to have been watching them closely for several hours to notice before it got as bad as it did. And someone else actually discovered it in the morning before I got there, but didn’t know what to do (they separated them, at least). Plus nobody else seems to think it’s urgent to have more staff because the animals are a more recent thing and I’m the only one with previous experience in this setting, so management doesn’t quite understand how much constant work it is, and that you can’t just leave them alone.

  145. Amethyst*

    I don’t know if anyone will see this, but I’ve been job hunting for a year and three months. I feel so exhausted and defeated, applying for jobs that don’t always call back. I’ve been applying at admin assistant, sales, and customer service. How do I keep going? How do I fight the burnout?

    1. Dimity Hubbub*

      I am so sorry – I’ve been there looking for very similar work. It’s so demoralising. From the jobs you’re applying for it’s very likely there’s a lot of competition, so please keep in mind that you are a good worker and they just aren’t giving you the chance to show it for whatever reason. Keeping going – plan regular small treats for yourself, because you’re working really hard e.g. film night, coffee out. Any kind friends who can remind you you’re great regularly help too! Finding things that make you happy too (cat videos?) Good luck and I hope things get better for you.

      1. Invisible today*

        I’m so sorry. It is so demoralizing. As Dimity said, be kind to yourself, give yourself days off from the job hunt. And good luck !

    2. Chirpy*

      That sucks. I don’t really have an answer, because what I ended up doing in the same situation is just getting a terrible retail job that I still can’t escape. It was better for a while to at least have *a* job, because it at least proved I had the ability to get a job. But it sucks. Do take a break, give yourself a nice weekend and try not to worry. Find something like a book or a quick, easily finishable project to distract you so you can come back refreshed. Good luck.

  146. WhoTurgled*

    I recently learned I was making less than the hourly employees I supervise, all of whom were hired a month after I was promoted to assistant manager (and one of whom was offered a promotion in secret, and would therefore be making even more than me–so obviously, they could afford it, despite what they told me). My boss hid it from me. They don’t know I know yet. The whole thing has been really upsetting.

    I’ve tried asking for a raise based on additional work I was taking on, but I was told that the additional tasks ‘fell into my contracted hours’ so that went nowhere.

    When I ask for a raise, how should I approach this? Is it okay to ask them outright why I’m making less than the people I supervise? What should I negotiate for?

  147. burt*

    My boss was telling me a story of a toxic job her friend left, and she mentioned that, since she and her friend have a ‘strong work ethic’, neither she nor her friend would dream of quitting a job before the contract was up, to make a point of how toxic the old place was.

    Is that a thing? My contract says that I can leave if I provide two weeks’ notice, so I didn’t know there was a social norm against leaving a job before the contract is up.

  148. CatToys*

    Can you post an open thread for people in really niche industries to post their stories like the RA stories? Academia comes to mind as it’s really f*ing weird about some things.

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