open thread – April 29-30, 2022

by Alison Green on April 29, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,259 comments }

{ 1,259 comments… read them below }

  1. Miss. Bianca*

    I posted in the open thread at the beginning of March (and in Feb) how my boss originally gave everyone on the team 5/5’s on our performance reviews, then changed them all to 3/5’s when HR told him he couldn’t do that, then he refused to go through my review and explain what a 3 vs. 5 rating meant, got defensive and then apologized later on for getting combative and said he’d take reviews more seriously going forward.

    Well, today is actually his last day! Good riddance! He found another job, which partly explains why he’s been extremely checked out for awhile. So now I’ll probably stay at my job for a bit longer but I want to make sure I choose the right boss next time who won’t be lazy, clueless, checked out or throw a hissy fit the one time I say ‘no’. At my last job I also ran into this, thankfully that boss left after a year.

    Looking at the things those two managers had in common, I think my #1 rule when checking out a potential boss will be to avoid them if they’ve moved up the ladder within that company from a contributor level to director level. I’ve found that in these cases, the job duties are muddled and there is a higher chance they’ll micromanage you since they used to do their job. I work in marketing if that makes a difference.
    If you could pick 1 dealbreaker (similar to mine where it’s a bit unusual) when looking for a new job, what would it be?

    1. Kindling*

      Not unusual, but respect. If I don’t feel respected or get the sense that someone on the team doesn’t give or receive appropriate respect, that’s not a group I want to work with. Good natured ribbing is fine, treating your coworkers or employees like children is not.

    2. Anna Badger*

      i value alignment, so in interviews I ask: if you picked a random assortment of employees and asked them what the company’s 1 and 3 year plans were, how varied would the answers be, and what mechanisms does the company use to create alignment?

      if the answer is “we tell them about it in a meeting”, it is not a good fit for me

      1. Box of Kittens*

        Genuinely curious – what would a good marker of alignment be for you as far as how companies create it?

        1. Anna Badger*

          so there are lots of different good answers – obvs not all of these will work in all workplaces all the time, but any out of:

          – the strategy intentionally being made simple enough for people to remember

          – colleagues at all levels actively involved in conversations that shape the strategy, rather than just being told about it once it’s formed

          – robust discussions around whether the metrics used to monitor the success of the strategy are the best proxy for the value that’s being delivered

          – day to day activities regularly reviewed with an eye to how and how much they contribute to the strategy

          – regular, meaningful discussions about how the company is performing against the strategy

          – the strategy being a useful decision making and prioritisation tool which organically comes up in conversations all around the company

          – leaders taking responsibility for joining the dots for their teams on how their work cascades up to the strategy

    3. Avril Ludgateau*

      What’s the deal with HR telling managers they can’t give 5/5 performance reviews, though? That’s a red flag for me. If you did 5/5 work you deserve 5/5 recognition, none of this “tHeRe’S AlWaYs rOoM fOr ImPrOvEmEnT” shlock. You want a dealbreaker? That’s a dealbreaker!

      2. Policy Wonk*

        I’d guess it’s not that he gave someone a 5/5, it’s that he gave everyone a 5/5. Where I work the system says you have to be able to demonstrate meaningful differences between the various levels (meets expectations, exceeds expectations, outstanding). It’s not impossible to have a team of all 5/5s, but it is highly unlikely.

        1. Glenn Mar*

          If a manager has a team of all 5/5s, they’ve probably failed the company by not promoting some of them out to other departments. It’s better for the company, and it’s better for the superstar. It’s only worse for the lazy manager.

          1. SoloKid*

            Eh, I’d be happy with a pay raise. Sometimes it’s a specific department’s energy that fosters superstars, and not all of us want a promotion.

            1. Glenn Mar*

              Sure, some would like to stay. If it’s a whole team, something doesn’t sound right.

              1. Kes*

                I don’t think that’s necessarily true – it could just be a great team who are happy with and proficient at what they do. Why break the team up just because. Also, they might be happy where they are because they like work with other people who are similarly high performing

            2. achiappanza*

              Usually there’s a limited raise budget and you don’t get more because all your contributors are fives.

              There’s also a range for job title and when you get near the top, there isn’t much room to give more.

              The employee might be fine with getting good raises and not looking to move, but they usually aren’t going to get that indefinitely.

        2. Clisby*

          Yes, it’s like if a college professor gives everyone in the class an A. That should get the side-eye from somebody.

      3. Glenn Mar*

        The problem she reported is that the bad boss gave everyone 5/5. 5/5 should be a rare, special grade that people strive for. If you give it to everybody, it’s pointless. It means, “I don’t want to do the work to give you thoughtful feedback, I just would rather skip the exercise and have you like me.”

        A company should want 3/5 to be a solid, “You did a good job” grade. Otherwise, what’s the point in having a scale?

        1. Miss. Bianca*

          Yep exactly! He put no thought into any of the ratings, he quickly gave everyone the same rating because he’s lazy and doesn’t want to be the bad guy. And he wasn’t able to tell me what the difference was between my level and the next level up from me, and what I needed to do to get to that level. He got defensive and combative when I asked him what a 3 vs. 5 looked like. It’s frustrating because he would give me extra tasks and responsibilities, while ignoring how another coworker would never attend meetings she was supposed to, not respond to emails, would let mistakes fall through the cracks and she would need people (mainly me and another coworker) to hold her hand through things she was supposed to do. But according to him, all of us are rated the same!

          1. Glenn Mar*

            Your judgment is spot on. I have been in places where promoting the programmer to leadership was a bad move more often than not. Management is a different skill-set, and like baseball, it’s pretty hard to find people who can both pitch and hit.

        2. Kes*

          I think there are cases where the team could actually be high performing; I don’t see the point of forcing people to be ranked lower if they actually are doing that well. However, if that’s the case the boss should clearly be able to justify it. It’s cases like this that make HR wary of seeing 5s across the board, where the manager is just lazy.

          1. J*

            There are so many jobs where there aren’t promotional opportunities. I’m thinking back to my time with government and nonprofit where you might have a team with 15 years experience (that shows) but no chance of advancement. Should they be punished because HR hasn’t figured out tiered roles? I often view all 5/5 as an HR failure and based on their reactions, they know it too.

      4. soontoberetired*

        I have heard that the C Level folks in our corporation don’t believe you can give out that many outstanding classification in reviews. My response to this was you hire good people, why can’t a lot of them then be outstanding? There’s a lot more politics behind reviews in some corporations than there should be.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Yeah, if HR or upper management insists you can’t have a team of excellent people, you soon won’t have one, because those excellent people will find jobs where they are valued.

      5. Miss. Bianca*

        I mean it makes sense to be. 5/5 means you’re extremely proficient at your job and possibly ready to move to the next level (most likely getting promoted). I thought it was common sense since it’s been that way at all of my jobs. I have no idea what he was thinking.

      6. Hannah Lee*

        There are certain silly management theories, approaches that lead to this nonsense.

        It’s like the companies that insist that every single department’s distribution of employee review ratings has to be a bell curve, or something close. So if you have a manager who is extremely good at choosing employees, training them, working with them so they all become top contributors who meet or exceed expectations, half of them have to arbitrarily graded as average to below average or not meeting expectations. Which oh, BTW, can screw them for merit increases, bonuses, promotion opportunities, and perks like stock options, etc. and put them on the firing line during RIFs and reorgs. While down the hall, there is another department with a majority of mediocre to poor performers, and half of THEM have to be rated as average to way above average and get all the upsides of that.

        That’s no way to run an airline … or any other organization.

        1. TheRain'sSmallHands*

          Statistical illiteracy – you aren’t getting a bell curve with a small sample size – plus in most organizations performance isn’t going to happen along a normal distribution because you are not hiring a population to contain 1s (it happens, but it shouldn’t happen with anything like a normal distribution. Made worse when “we only hire the best” – well, if you have a high performing team of people who got As in school and now exceed your expectations, they are going to get upset and leave when they are forced into a 3 on a five point scale.

          A five point scale where there are few 5s and you fire people who get 1s is not a scale.

      7. Manager*

        When we are putting together ours, the mindset is that if everybody is exceeding expectations (4) or substantially exceeding expectations (5), then expectations are wrong, and people are mis-aligned in their role. The issue is that a lot of places tie your number to your raise – meeting expectations (3) shouldn’t limit your raise.

        1. Hannah Lee*

          That’s a fair point. But that shouldn’t impact how they are rated for *that* particular performance review cycle. If the performance standards for the position, goals outlined for Q1 2022 are complete xyz and demonstrate 123 competencies in abc ways, and the employee achieved xyz and clearly demonstrated 123 competencies in abc ways, they should be rated as meeting or exceeding expectations … based on how the expectations had been defined at the start of that performance period.

          Then, if at the end of that review cycle, management realizes there are issues with what expectations were set and how ‘achieves’ ‘exceeds’ ‘completed’ etc were defined on the Q1 performance expectations, use that knowledge to update roles and responsibilities as needed and to set performance targets for the NEXT review period to better reflect the current situation.

          Basically – Managers shouldn’t be moving goalposts for success after the fact because they realized THEY made a mistake 3 months ago or to achieve some arbitrary distribution of performance ratings.

          And as an aside on mis-alignment between skills and roles, while it may be an issue on the downside when an employee is consistently unable to meet the basic functions of their role, if you’ve got an employee who is really good at their role, and enjoys the work, and consistently is ‘meeting or exceeding expectations’ and that’s “a problem”, it might be worth taking a step back to consider why, exactly, it’s a problem. It may be that it’s an ‘up and out’ position designed for employees to go through on their way to more challenging or specialized positions. It may be the employee ready for promotion or movement and you risk stagnating them and losing them. It may be the company culture is growth growth growth and anyone remaining in a stable role is frowned upon. But if the employee is happy and valuable work is being done well at a pay rate both employer and employee feel is fair, maybe that’s okay? Maybe you’d want to add a stretch goal or two based on company needs for cross training, or employee’s skills/interests. But it’s good for managers to be sure they are managing intentionally for the results they actually want, and not just ‘growth is good’ing people when there really isn’t an issue.

      8. Dragonfly7*

        My supervisor claims she isn’t allowed to give us higher than 3’s without substantial documentation, yet other departments do. I think I managed a 4 during the first year of COVID because we were communicating in writing so, for once, I had documentation saying various iterations of “good job.”

      9. HigherEd-Staycation*

        In our org, raises are tied to merit only and what “number” you got out of 5- the higher you got the more % raise you got. But, because they don’t want to actually have to pay out, they want to avoid too many 4s and 5s. Funny enough, even a 5 doesn’t even touch COLA.

        And they wonder why people are leaving.

      10. chidi*

        Some companies will have a set number of 5s that managers can give out per team/department. At places I’ve worked that do this, it’s always been done as a wat to keep raises and promotions in check.

    4. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I started a new job recently, after over a year of on-and-off searching. It was a slog and felt hopeless at times, but it helped me realise lots of things I wouldn’t have known I needed when I started looking. One was that I wanted my next manager to have built up experience in different contexts (companies, and ideally industries) before landing where they were.

      Context: at my previous workplace, the majority of people the business thought highly of and considered “experienced” had joined the company as their first or second job, stuck around many years, and got several internal title changes over time, sometimes used as a retention tool rather than recognition of skill. Heck, I realised at one point – I was one of those people! Rather than boosting my confidence, that made me question how much I really knew and could offer: I only knew one side of one specific industry in depth, had learnt a lot about how not to do things (that workplace was mildly dysfunctional) but not much about what “good” looks like, and knew I could learn a lot more by working with people who had moved around more than me in their career.

      One of the factors that led me to turn down an offer was knowing the manager I’d work for was in the same boat as my former long-serving higher-ups. This person had only ever moved internally at the same company, and had never worked anywhere else. I was looking for a manager to learn from and be mentored by, and to me, that meant the manager needed to have seen more variety and more complexity than I had. This person, in that sense, felt more like a peer.

      At another job I was evaluating (the one I accepted), the manager hadn’t been at the company as many years, but had worked across different industries, and spoke confidently about both the challenges in the current team and the experience they were bringing to the table to address them. I lost out on some compensation, both compared to my previous role and the one I turned down, but manager and team wise, the choice was a no-brainer.

      2. Zephy*

        I like this. What kinds of questions would you ask in an interview to suss out that kind of information?

        1. Cookies For Breakfast*

          In this particular case, it all started coming together when I looked up the managers on Linkedin.

          Job A (the one I turned down): the external recruiter said I’d be working for a very experienced manager who was keen to mentor more junior people. That sounded up my street, so I looked up the manager immediately. When I saw it was someone who only ever worked at one place, it was…not what I’d expected. And because the industry was the same I’d always worked in, but the company was a lot smaller and younger, I started realising what they were really looking for was for me to supply the experience they lacked. There were other signs: for example, my take-home exercise got an overly enthusiastic reaction. They’d asked me to present a successful project I’d delivered, and while I was proud of the work, I did it with next to no tools to scope and measure it properly, so there were big gaps in my approach. If someone is that impressed with the bare minimum I was able to scrape, they probably can’t help me improve to do better next time, or will push me to focus on areas that don’t align with where I see myself going.

          Job B: the manager’s Linkedin profile showed they’d worked in a variety of industries, in similar roles. I (looking to switch over to a new industry too) took that as a better sign of alignment. One industry in particular is known for very poor work-life balance, and I remember wondering whether they’d left for that reason, which they said outright when I asked about working hours and availability expectations (my old job had burnt me out, and so far, people at the new one seem very realistic and chilled). I could go on for longer, but in short: I was given space to be honest about my experience, and the manager reacted in a way that proved they’d worked with people like me before, acknowledging the challenges I’d faced, and describing in detail how they designed the role to move on from exactly those (as well as the growing pains still to solve). I felt that if I could learn enough from this person to have a similar career path, I’d develop skills to be proud of. Hope that helps!

    5. Bongo Fury*

      Mine isn’t manager related, but the team members.
      If the entire team is of a different generation than you, I’d pass on the opportunity. I took a position where I was the “young one” and everyone else is closer to retirement age. It was nothing but “You Young People Don’t Understand” for my entire time there. It was miserable. I’m almost 40 so not that young. Never again. IMO it would be the same if I was 40-something and the team was all 20-somethings.

    6. Fabulous*

      One of the things I vetted for in my last interviews was flexibility allowance. Do I have to have my butt in the seat from 9-5 or can I come and go as I need to, i.e. hop out at 4:30 for daycare pickup or run to the store for milk, then check back in a few hours later, etc.

      1. BongoFury*

        Oh that’s a good one! Is there a timeclock watcher in the group and 2 minutes late means a write up? Because I’m not interested, especially if the expectation is you’re always available to stay late at a moment’s notice.

      2. Anhaga*

        This was a big one for me in my most recent job search–not only a good remote work policy, but also a flexible work policy that makes it okay for me to take more than a lunch and bathroom breaks. It means that now that one of my kids has been kicked out of afterschool care (rather embarassing, that, but he was pushing back at a kid 3 years old than him who had been deliberately picking on him when the staff weren’t looking), I can pause work at 1 pm and go pick him up from school, then come back and work a little longer. My last job made that really hard to do, since we were only supposed to take state-mandated breaks.

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      Hmm. As someone who moved up the ladder from individual contributor to middle management, I feel a bit defensive reading this. :) Then again, I can absolutely see how it can be a problem, especially in places where people are promoted to management level without any kind of management skills or training or anything. I was lucky enough to get a LOT of really good management training, and to have the coaching of some really good upper management. Not everyone gets that!

      In the unlikely event that I should look for a job elsewhere, I think a dealbreaker for me would be that I would not work anywhere where folks didn’t think highly of their IT services. See, I would want to be able to work remotely most of the time, but that’s not an unusual dealbreaker. That said, I know that working remotely can vary hugely in how easy it is to do, even within the same kind of role, and that is due in large part to how well set up the infrastructure of equipment, access, etc. is. If I didn’t have access to a great IT team that could help me troubleshoot technical issues while working from home, and if I didn’t have great equipment available to me, it would be a PITA to do my job outside of the office.

      1. Miss. Bianca*

        “especially in places where people are promoted to management level without any kind of management skills or training or anything”

        Excellent point! That could be something to ask a potential manager if they were promoted into the role on how they got management training.

        1. HigherEd-Staycation*

          As someone who was promoted into that role in a toxic culture without any help, I agree!!

    8. Kes*

      I don’t think your justification is entirely fair. I’ve seen companies, my current and past jobs included, where they did promote people up the ranks and they did a great job. In fact, I think companies being willing to promote from within and grow their people is a good thing, because it means there’s room for growth there rather than constant turnover from everyone leaving in order to get to the next level. That said, companies need to actually support their employees in growing into these roles, help them learn how to do the new responsibilities, and provide management and supervision of them to make sure they are doing their job as a manager correctly.
      As for what would be a good indicator of how good a manager they’ll be, how they conduct the interview (if they do) is certainly one factor, and how anyone else in the interview reacts to them. Beyond that not sure, although I’m sure Alison has written about this

      1. Fran Fine*

        That said, companies need to actually support their employees in growing into these roles, help them learn how to do the new responsibilities, and provide management and supervision of them to make sure they are doing their job as a manager correctly.

        This is where most companies fall down, especially with their first time managers.

    9. GreenBeans*

      Just curious, what kind of profile would you consider better than an individual contributor? I agree that someone who’s doing this for the first time might suck a little bit isn’t that whole point of upward mobility? Career managers who don’t have any standard worker experience don’t sound great either…

    10. MoMac*

      Great question. I work as a therapist and I cannot tell you the number of therapists who moved into program director positions because they hated being a therapist. They have no idea how to maintain someone in their career because they didn’t do it themselves. They made the worst bosses because they focused on pleasing higher-ups and not the clients. And they did not actually know how to formulate a case so trying to discuss complex issues with them was useless. I was lucky early on in my career to have bosses who still did the work. But the past 15 years in the field drove me to private practice because they were as terrible as administrators as they must have been as therapists. I will never again work for someone who hates therapy.

    11. Workerbee*

      All this talk about the rating scale assessment makes me think that would definitely be _a_ dealbreaker. I have yet to be in an organization where it made a whit of difference to advancement or compensation. Probably because the rules behind it are eternally complicated and meaningless. I’ve suffered through the “I rarely give 5s” managers, who then like to appear puzzled and hurt when 360 reviews on them are without 5s; the 9-point grid scale; the “write down how you think you meet or exceed these personality traits” essay questions; and other variants I seem to have mercifully forgotten. I used to attach pages of all the great stuff I’d done over the past year, only for it to never be read or taken into consideration. Oh yeah, and there was the boss that said, “I only take into account if someone else tells me you’re doing a great job,” so there was a nice bit of begging among staff to get praise forwarded to him.

      LastJob finally dispensed with the pretense that raises were tied to performance and just gave cost of living to everyone unless your manager actually had a clue about what you were doing. You’d still meet and talk about stuff, but it didn’t really matter.

      CurrentJob just leaves it up to HR and the leadership team to give you $. There isn’t actually a review at all.

      I’m happy with the salary so I am also happy with just relaxing around review time for a change.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I agree that rating system seems to be an excuse for stagnation. I do actually understand how the system can cause managers to be distracted and neglect growing their employees. If I am busy thinking is Bob a 5 or is Sue a 5 then I am not busy thinking about how I can help Bob and Sue grow in the position. If I am more concerned about what my boss will say about giving out too many 5s or 4s then I am, again, not thinking about the employees under my watch.

        I had a job where my supervisor told me repeatedly that I worked like 3 people. But on the “BErating” system we had I only got 3s or 4s. What they said in person did not match what they put on paper. I would later find out that my laziest cohort got a very similar rating as I did. So clearly this was about my boss creating paperwork that would please his boss and not about developing employees.

    12. Girasol*

      “We don’t talk to that department” or “Don’t you talk to him.” Anytime I’ve been told that there are peers I should never speak to, it’s indicated some sort of turf war that I did not want to be tangled up with. It’s surprising how often people in completely different organizations have told me that they’re not on speaking terms with someone and if I want to stay in their good graces I’d better do the same.

    13. Juneybug*

      My deal breaker is I would never work for someone who use to do my job. For example, old boss was promoted to Program Teams Director (they use to be Program Lead). I am happy for her that she got promoted and now is the Director over 4 programs but DEAR LORD she would not let her old job go (which was my new job).
      Problems when a previous Program Lead will not let go are –
      – She had so many ideas on how the program should run so I had no chance to problem solve/be an innovator (one of my better skill sets). And if I did come up with a solution but it wasn’t her idea, then that solution did not happen.
      She did not do this with the other program leads.
      – So many meetings with her to see how my program was doing. Almost four times more than the other teams. For example – she would meet with me weekly about each project but meet with other teams monthly to review their whole program status (not individually projects). I was meeting with her three to four times a week. My updates were often I haven’t had time because of our numerous meetings. Instead of changing, she would say “let’s knock it out right now. I will bring it on the conference screen and we will take care of it real quick”. So she would start something I wasn’t ready to do (need more research, input from others, etc.). Now I have all of these tasks open and not be able to move forward because of all of the weekly meetings!
      She did not do this with the other program leads.
      – Talk to others about my program/projects. If she was bragging about me, that would have been great. But no, it was communicating about status. So others would have no reason to develop a relationship with me. Even better, volunteering me for something that I either did not have the time or really didn’t need to happen.
      She did volunteer the other programs leads (which they hated) but often referred others to discuss projects/issues/status with the program leads because she wanted to make sure they had correct info. She never did refer others to me to discuss or coordinate.
      – Presented a slideshow of my program status/accomplishments to higher ups without letting me know. I found out a week later when we had a team meeting. When asked why she presented my program without me, she said she knew I was busy and didn’t have time. A private meeting between her and I did not resolve the issue as she did it again when I was on leave.
      She did not present other programs to higher ups. The program leads did their own presentations.
      So no, I will never, ever work for someone who had my job before me. They don’t know how to move forward/let go.

  2. Title change via promotion but job stays the same*

    Hi all – I’ve recently gotten a promotion to a higher grade level and title but my job stays the same. Long story short, I was promoted to management years ago but my title was group lead. Where I work, less than a handful of group leads manage people, but 90% are senior analysts with no direct reports.

    My promotion to the correct title for my job finally went through, and my title will change from group lead to manager (and move a grade level up). However, my job does not change at all, no responsibilities added whatsoever.

    My question is this: on my LinkedIn, can I just change my title without having to add a new position?

    Thank you :)

    1. knope knope knope*

      When I had this happen I updated the title. It’s a promotion and changing the title signals that. I usually won’t add a description/bullet points to LinkedIn or a resume for a while. I feel like using Alison’s results-based resume approach really works well here, because even tho the responsibilities are the same, you’ll show new achievements for the new position, so it all shows forward progression.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think you can do whatever you’d like! I personally added my promotion as a new position to show the exact time it happened/the career progression. I haven’t included any details as to what my job is on LinkedIn (I really only update it when I’m job hunting and I’m currently not), so it just says:

      Dancing Tomatoes Inc 2018-Present
      -Senior Nightshade Tap Dance Manager 2020-Present
      -Nightshade Tap Dance Manager 2018-2020

      No details or descriptions, just a timeline. I might update it in the future, but it’s worth it to me to at least show the career progression (even if I was technically doing the Senior position looong before it was made official). So if you do have a description under the first position, I think you’re fine to add the new one and not add a new description, it wouldn’t be unusual.

      Congrats on the promotion!

    3. I'm Just Here For The Cats!*

      I would just update the title. That’s what I’ve done in the past

    4. learnedthehardway*

      While your job has stayed the same, I think there is some value (potentially) to showing that you have been recognized. That said, there’s also value in being seen as having been at a manager level for several years.

      What I would do is list things this way (on your resume and your LinkedIn profile):
      Manager, Llama Grooming (2022 – Present)
      Team Lead, Llama Grooming (201X – 2022)
      – accomplishments & notes for both positions together.

      That’s a) perfectly honest. b) shows you were in the same functional role the whole time, and c) shows your contributions were noticed. (It also shows that your company was slow to recognize your accomplishments and to give you the title and compensation that you merited. Which kind of leads a person to say, “aha, they might be interested in a cool new role and company.”)

    5. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Just changing the title on LinkedIn is what I would do. My company re-named a number of Program Managers to Technical Program Managers (TPM) to be more in line with other large tech companies in the area, and I just updated my current title on LinkedIn. Did not create a new position or anything like that.

  3. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

    How do you deal with interview burn out? I’m very actively searching, have had several interviews in the past month that are in various steps in the process, and I’m continuing to apply because I know nothing is ever a sure thing. But I’m soooo over interviewing. I feel like every day I’m just repeating myself over and over. I’ve tried to spread out my interviews the best I can, but at the same time doing that is dragging things out longer.

    Any tips on how to keep it fresh? (Other than finally getting an offer or two) And any BA/PM specific things I should be focusing on? If highlight my best projects, but maybe there is a key element I should be focusing on.

    1. anonymous73*

      I can sympathize and am also a PM. Unfortunately I don’t have any advice. I was laid off on Oct 2020 and out of work for 9 months. The interviews were draining. I will say speaking with different people and having them ask different questions made me think of other things to talk about sometimes other than my usual stuff. As far as specific things for BA/PM work, other than speaking about your best projects, how you handle difficult people is a good thing to focus on..good luck!

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        Thanks. Weirdly no one has asked me about how to deal with difficult stakeholders (which is odd, big part of the job)…and I have many good examples. But maybe I’ll try to work it into one of my strengths if they don’t outright ask about it.

    2. achiappanza*

      I was looking for work for two years, and it sucked. I still don’t know the answer to your very good question.

      My only advice is to treat job hunting like an X hours a week job and give yourself the freedom to enjoy your time guiltlessly outside of that. Otherwise, it’s like a dark cloud that never goes away.

      Theoretically, this would help it go away, but I don’t know because I didn’t do it!

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        My last job search took nearly two years and I get it. I feel into a very deep depression. But that time I was in a miserable job that I needed out of ASAP. This time around I’m getting a lot more interviews (thanks pandemic I guess for more remote opportunities!) but I’m already over it three months in. I’m very tired of 4-6 times a week “walking through my resume”

    3. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

      My recent job search took 3 years so I hear you on how tough it is to not hear anything back after interviews you thought went well and sounding like a broken record.

      I don’t know the reason you’re searching but what I tried to emphasize was how I was eager to take on a new challenge and learn more new skills.

      If you get an interview for a role you’re particularly excited about, try to put all you have into it, convey your interest in them rather than just going through your usual “script”.

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        My company has been acquired and basically sometime in the next 1 – 1.5 years my job and team as it is today won’t exist. They are “committed to finding a place for everyone” but I know how that goes. So I always answer I’m looking because of the acquisition. Which isnt to say I’d take anything. I’ve backed out of a few places once it was clear I wouldn’t like it.

        But maybe I shouldn’t focus on that as much as I’ve been in those role for 3 years and am looking to move my career forward part. I’ll try that for the ones I have lined up next week and see if the tide turns.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I have had to dig inside my own thinking. Eventually, I would land on that one job where I could see myself doing well. Sometimes I had to drive to the place and look around the place in order to help with that visualization. After a number of applications, the places became a blurt. The process felt mechanical. I had to do something different, such as look at the place in person, to get myself unstuck.

      I also had to understand that some times, there were some jobs that my gut immediately said NOOOOO. And, foolishly, I applied anyway. I had to learn not to waste my energy on these places. If something inside me is saying nooo as I just go through the application process that is probably happening for a reason and it probably will not get better. I had to learn to be careful where I put what little energy I had left.

      I found that I could pull up that last ounce of energy by finding a few things that I actually liked about the (potential) new place. Generally it would go something like this: Potential new place offers A, B and C that I have never had at any other job. I would enjoy having those things. I’d dwell on A, B and C for a minute to see how those things would be meaningful in my work/personal life. This could give me a shot of energy that was just enough to get the job.

      And here is one to watch for: We have to believe we are taking good care of our own selves. If we apply at places that are some how “less than” something we want there is a let down feeling. We let our own selves down. Ya know, it’s one thing if friends or family let us down. But it’s a whole new level when we do it to ourselves. It might be good to ask yourself, “If I got a job in this new place, how do I feel about me? Am I proud of myself? Or do I think I just put myself on yet another meaningless hamster wheel?” This goes into respecting oneself and respecting one’s own work efforts.

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        Thank you. I feel that last paragraph so hard. 7 years ago I took a job I had a feeling going in was not good. But it was the only place that had even interviewed me (I had not found this site yet) so I took it. Thus started a long deep spiral of depression and a few jobs over 3 years to undo that mistake. I finally landed my current job, which I’ve been very happy with and finally know my worth. But I do need to stop applying for things I’m not super interested in. At first it was more to polish up my interview skills, but now that I’ve had some many recently I just need to focus on the ones I’m very excited about. I am not the same insecure person I was and I clearly have in demand skills, so something amazing will work out. I know the advice is to continue to apply for things until you have accepted an offer, but I don’t have to apply for everything I’m qualified for.

  4. Feeling Trapped*

    Last week, literally a day after I turned in my completed Masters’ Thesis, I happened upon a job that is everything I’m looking for right now. I applied immediately, and within a few hours had an interview set up for the next day. I just got out of a second interview, and things are looking extremely promising. They said they are interviewing one more candidate, but expect to make a decision this weekend.

    Obviously this has been a very quick process. This is a Personal Assistant position, and the exec is in a tough place and really needs someone ASAP. They said they basically wanted whoever is hired to start immediately. Normally, this would be a red-flag for me, as I would expect a longer process as well as an expectation that I’d give notice to my current position. However, this is somewhat unique. In this industry (think Entertainment) things tend to move very quickly, and because of the nature of the position it makes sense that they’d need someone ASAP.

    At the same time, I don’t feel great about leaving my current position with no notice. I’ve been “underemployed” at a local university for several years, but it’s a pleasant job and it’s been an excellent gig to have while also in school full-time. My supervisor knows I’m overqualified and has definitely appreciated that fact as they’ve gradually expanded my job responsibilities to include all sorts of things. I’m very underpaid for what I’m currently doing. And yet… my supervisor and department head have been wonderful to me, and again this job has been good for me given the circumstances.

    This could all be very premature as I haven’t gotten an offer yet, but I feel like I need to be prepared given how rushed the timeline has been. On one hand, I feel like their timeline is unrealistic and I don’t want to burn bridges at my current position. The department I work in is related to the industry and often participates in my city’s small industry community. On the other hand, I don’t wanted to be out of contention on this job because I’m unwilling to leave right away. This is a position that does not come along often in my city. Reading that job description felt like I was getting a wish granted. The fact that I could stay in this city where I have roots and also advance my career in a very significant way, all while getting at least a 10K pay bump to boot…. It feels magical.

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think two weeks at my current employer would make much of a difference. I have a few vacation days that have been planned for months, and then my supervisor and department head will be out of the country for the whole of week 2. I wrote an extremely detailed Position Manual last year, which I have kept updated. It’s also likely that my current supervisors would be very understanding, as they would know how rare an opportunity this is.

    What do you make of this situation? Should I be running the other direction, or does it make sense for a position as intense and intimate as a Personal Assistant for an extremely busy, high-powered exec? Should I trust that my current manager would be okay with little to no notice, especially if I’m flexible and available as they make a transition? Should I try and negotiate more with my potential new employer? If so, do you have a script?

    1. PX*

      Sometimes immediately just means “straight after your 2 week notice, no additional holiday or time off in between” – so I would actually clarify when they want you to start. Personally if they know you are employed, they should be willing to let you work your notice period – but this is very much not my industry so take this with a pinch of salt!

      1. Feeling Trapped*

        Yeah, unfortunately they were pretty clear that they mean next week. But the more I think about it, the more I feel like that’s ridiculous to expect!

        1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

          From everything I’ve ever heard or read about personal assistants for the Entertainment industry, is that ridiculous demands are par for the course.

          1. achiappanza*

            This! It’s kind of a test to see how high you’ll jump. I’d be afraid that taking it meant “It’s OK to take advantage of me.”

            On the other hand, if it is, you don’t have to stay. Do you know how long the previous assistant stayed?

            1. Feeling Trapped*

              The previous assistant got promoted within the organization after 2 years. She’s been part of the hiring process.

              1. Word Pro*

                I would jump on this, personally. Yes, it’s quick. But you admit the industry moves quickly, so that doesn’t seem unusual. You also describe your current job as “underemployed.” Why stick with that when you have an opportunity to work with someone who not only kept the same assistant for two years, but also helped that assistant move up in the company? That bodes really well for your future.

        2. 2 Cents*

          If they’re making this demand before even hiring you, will they have outsized expectations of your time/flexibility once you do start with them? Just…proceed with caution.

          1. Feeling Trapped*

            No. I’ve worked with this organization (Personal Assistant is for the board chair) before, both in my current position and with a previous position. In my experience they are very reasonable and have been wonderfully transparent and very equity-forward.

        4. All Het Up About It*

          There’s definitely in-between 2 weeks notice and no notice. Whether it’s a week or even just a few days. If the place does offer you the position and wants you to start next week, you could say, start mid-week instead of Monday perhaps. Again, not ideal, but depending on the work a person does, sometimes two weeks notice isn’t really needed for “wrapping up” and planning coverage.

    2. Janey-jane*

      I would ask if offered, and then make a decision from there. “Thank you for the offer, I’m really excited! I know you want someone as soon as possible, is it possible for me to finish out two weeks at my current position and start on X date?”

      On the other hand, if your department/team at the current position is going to be out what would likely be the 2nd week, you could also talk to them and see if you can give one week’s notice instead, something like “I’ve been offered a new position in my dream industry, and I’m excited to take the next step in my career. Timing-wise, a two week notice would be when everyone is out. Would it be possible for me to just work one more week here?” (And mention the up-to-date manual, and using that week to transition).

      It might take some negotiating between the two? I once gave a slightly less than two weeks notice, because two weeks was a Monday, and they group orientated everyone on that Monday. My boss at the old job was fine with my last day being the Friday.

      1. Hannah Lee*

        I like that approach, kind of working it from both sides.

        That being said, unless the new position is for something that has fixed, non-negotiable timing: eg “the space shuttle/expedition to Antarctica is leaving the day after tomorrow. If you can’t be on it, we have to choose someone else.” , I’d be very wary of anyplace that requires a new employee to start at the drop of a hat.

        Because though that manager’s sense of urgency may be coming from a very valid, real pressure, the fact that a) they needed help yesterday and are still interviewing candidates… ie they have not managed their internal recruitment timing based on actual business needs and b) they are signaling clearly that they think their needs outrank anything else employees may have going on in their lives. Neither of those things indicates this will be a great place to work IMHO.

      2. achiappanza*

        I like what Janey-jane said too.

        I wonder if working part time for each as a transition is feasible. At the very least, any transition turnover (open tasks and process documentation) should be as complete as possible before asking to leave quickly.

    3. Savvy*

      Are your supervisor and/or department head the type you could trust with telling them you are applying to other jobs? In most work places it’s advised not to let your current boss know you’re looking for a job, but if they have treated you well and you trust them, maybe just letting them know your current situation with this new opportunity would help bridge the gap. And you could be honest about being concerned that you wouldn’t be able to give them a full 2 weeks notice, and that might help soften the blow if you do end up getting hired and have to leave quickly.

    4. RagingADHD*

      If your supervisor and DH are as wonderful as you say, why not talk to them about the situation so you can triage stuff that might need to get wrapped up?

      That’s not generally advised in most corporatey-type jobs, but this is academia. They aren’t going to shove you out the door and get a quick replacement, because nothing moves that fast.

      They already know you’re overqualified and underpaid, and that you graduated. They don’t expect to have you long term. I think it could win you a great future reference and ease your mind about the way it’s being handled, with very little risk.

      Yes, quick hiring is common for the type of position you’re talking about – not least because the bosses tend to be capricious. It is the nature of the work.

      I suspect that you will still be underpaid for the amount & intensity of the work you’re doing, even with the $10k pay bump. And that the advancement to your career will be less magical than it currently appears.

      It may be a perfectly fine job, but it sounds rather over-sold for what those type of jobs tend to actually be like. The reality is probably closer to the middle, because the upsides tend to also have downsides. Then again, being in the field you want and getting more money are great!

      I wish you well and hope everything works out.

      1. Feeling Trapped*

        I am definitely considering talking to my supervisor and just giving them a heads up. They do know that I’m on my way out soon regardless, and were very supportive when I applied to a promotion in another department last year.

        And yes, I probably oversold this job! Haha I’m pretty clear on what the job requirements are and it’s certainly not glamorous. I am just so excited at the prospect of advancing my career without moving to Los Angeles. It would be a stepping-stone job, but it would be a stepping-stone job where I can stay close to my boyfriend and friends and family.

        1. RagingADHD*

          In your position, it sounds like a really good opportunity and is certainly worth trying. For me personally, I try not to hype things up too much in my own head because then it makes the normal “ugh” parts of any job seem awful. Whereas if I go in expecting a certain amount of “ugh,” I can appreciate the good parts more.

    5. OneTwoThree*

      I wonder if you could start for the new position on Monday, but offer your current position for support for a set period time. For example, maybe you could start your new position on Monday. In a couple of weeks (after your supervisor and department head return), you could have a couple of planned dates where you can tie up any loose ends. Or maybe you could work at your new job for 4 days a week and your old job for 1 day a week for the first couple of weeks.

    6. Sandi*

      You’re working at a university so they expect you to move on once you graduate! You keep everything updated so transition would be quick. Go for this new job if everything else about it looks good, and I expect that your current employer will be supportive given the circumstances.

      Universities are also a great source of labor, so your position can hopefully be filled quickly by a student who needs the experience and money.

    7. Person from the Resume*

      I think you have to take care of yourself and be willing to burn this bridge by leaving without 2 weeks notice for such a great and rare opportunity. I’m not even sure that you would burn a bridge. Additionally your management at your current position know you’re on your way out. You’re clearly underpaid and underemployeed and are about to graduate. That kind of life change makes it pretty obvious you’re not going to be staying long term.

      But you should do it with as much thanks and appreciate as possible.

      2. achiappanza*

        I think the degree to which they’ve covered turnover (handing off or documenting everything) would go a long way in determining how the current employer will view it. Nobody wants to be left holding the bag and trying to figure it out, least of all your peers.

        1. Esmeralda*

          Almost nobody at universities bothers keeping documentation like this, or updating it if it exists. OP is so very “exceeds expectations” that I think they are ok if they have to give a shorter notice.

      1. RagingADHD*

        This might be a good option. It sounds like the university job was able to work around classes, etc. Maybe a week or so of off-ramp from the university while you on-ramp to the PA job could work out well for everyone.

        The suggestion would certainly show your problemsolving mindset!

    9. A Simple Narwhal*

      …Any chance you could ask for a signing bonus? If they’re going to insist that you bypass business norms of the two week notice so that you can start immediately, I feel like you should be compensated for putting yourself out (and potentially burning a bridge).

    10. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      If you already have a position manual set up, I would go ahead and create a document that just wraps up the rest of what you are working on and locations of where they can find any files they will need immediately. If you feel inclined, let them know that you are available to call if there is anything that comes up regarding anything you were handling for a few weeks after you leave.

      I think that’s a really generous offer and would prevent the burning of bridges.

      If you want to go overboard personalized ‘thanks for everything’ card that gives real examples of specific things they taught you also makes people remember you on a very positive note.

      Bottom line, I think you’ve done all you can to get them ready for your inevitable departure and you should take the new job without worrying!

    11. Feeling Trapped*

      Thank you all so much for responding! In reading all of the responses I realized that I have really valued transparency so I decided to follow the golden rule and be transparent myself. I had my annual performance review this morning and thought it was the perfect time to bring this all up. My supervisor and I talked a lot about my current compensation and responsibilities, and it turns out she’s been doing a lot of advocating for me behind the scenes (things just move slowly…. that’s academia for you). She definitely understood about the job and was not concerned that, should I get an offer and decide to take it, I’d be leaving quickly. I assured her that I could be very flexible and available in aiding the transition. She said that if I don’t get the job or decide against it, that she’d help me use it as leverage to advocate for a higher salary.

      If I get offered the position, I’m going to ask for at least a few days to help wrap things up here. The semester ends next week and summer is generally much easier for everyone, so it won’t be disastrous if I’m not around. I definitely think I can manage everything gracefully– if I even get an offer!

      Thank you!!!

    12. learnedthehardway*

      Just be careful. A company that will ask you to not give adequate notice is not going to be considerate of your needs in other ways, either. The role might look ideal, but I suspect that the company will have some deficiencies. Don’t rush into something unless you’re SURE this is a good move in every respect.

    13. SnappinTerrapin*

      When (deliberately wishing you the best with that word choice) you get the offer, sit down with your manager and have a heart-to-heart talk. They know you have been working toward your master’s, and know you intend to pursue other opportunities. Yes, they’ve done some things that were mutually beneficial, and it’s good you appreciate that, and you can express your appreciation. You’ve also done a lot already to prepare them for your inevitable transition. Share that with them. I’m sure they’ll appreciate it.

      If you say to your manager what you shared with us (well, you might tactfully glide past what you were paid), I’ll be shocked if they don’t encourage you to seize the opportunity.

      Of course, if the offer is less appealing than you anticipate, this advice is moot.

      Best wishes!

    14. Pam Adams*

      you are a student- completing your degree. Your supervisor has to know that you are looking to transition roles. I recommend telling them as soon as you legitimately can, but if it’s not two weeks- they will survive.

  5. Yaz*

    What old AAM posts have you read that made you think “WOW times have changed?” For me, it’s all the ones where people ask if they should go into work when they’re sick.

    1. londonedit*

      I was thinking that the other day! Definitely the ones about staying at home when you’re unwell, and the ones that discuss working from home as if it’s a strange beast that no one really knows anything about. I also feel a bit sad when I’m perusing the archives and I stumble across a post from late 2019 that’s all ‘I got a new job and I’ll be starting in January! Can’t wait to see what 2020 brings!’

      1. Jessica Ganschen*

        Relatedly, when I start a new podcast, I always go from the beginning, so whenever I get to 2019 in their archives, I begin to feel like a horror movie viewer, futilely warning the protagonists of the horrors ahead.

        1. londonedit*

          I was listening to a podcast the other day where the introductory bit had been recorded in late September 2021, when Covid was still in the background but the main news topic was a shortage of fuel at the pumps (lots of talk of panic buying and petrol stations running out, etc). The presenter said something along the lines of ‘I’m not actually sure when you’ll be listening to this – probably by that time you’ll be thinking “fuel shortages? Blimey, remember when we were worried about THAT!”‘. Yup…since then we’ve had a whole new massive Covid wave and there’s a war on…

          1. Becky*

            I’m sorry, what?–Covid was in the background in September 2021? That was around when the Delta spike hit that left local hospitals in my area at or above their ICU warning threshold for a solid 6 months–only subsiding below that threshold after the Omicron spike in January 2022.

            1. abcdef*

              For some places, other news took precedent over covid at that specific time.
              Not all places are the same, Becky.

        2. MissGirl*

          I was watching Love or List It episodes filmed right before 2020. I found myself yelling at the TV, “Don’t get rid of your home office!” They took it out and gave the poor guy a nook for his desk. That’s a decision I’m sure they came to regret.

        3. Hannah Lee*

          That reminds me of that woman who made the series of videos of her future self time traveling back to give a heads up to her past self. I think in the first she was recommending a big Costco run, and not making any big travel plans. It was very funny, but also a bit like a horror movie, as past-her was kind of freaking out … “WTH is going to happen??!?!?!”

        4. Alice Ulf*

          Oh, man. A few months ago I started listening to This Podcast Will Kill You (which is awesome, all about the history and pathology of various diseases) and the archives start back in 2017. I’m in late 2018 now and I can’t help repeatedly thinking [i]you ain’t seen nothing yet…[/i]

        5. cubone*

          I’m a fan of the podcast My Brother, My Brother and Me. During those first few days of COVID smacking everyone collectively in the face mid-March 2020, I was behind in their episodes but they were sort of a soothing balm of normalcy. At the end of their last “pre-COVID” episode they said something like “and fyi we’ll be heading out on a cruise next week!” And I literally let out a scream of shock and then rushed to Twitter to confirm none of the hosts had like … died.

      2. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I was walking into our building’s lobby the other day and there is a list of people’s office locations. Almost everyone is at least partially remote even now, so I thought, “Wow, a list of people’s actual* physical locations — how quaint!”

        *not actual now; actual pre-covid

      3. Cj*

        Just recently there was a link to a post dated April 20, 2020 that mentioned “as lockdown drags on”. If we’d only known.

        I didn’t think it would be over in a couple of months like some people did, but I honestly didn’t expect it to be going on 2 years later, especially once vaccines were available.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          I remember after a month or so, all the “everything will be fine by summer” talk started to sound a lot like, “…and we’ll all be home for Christmas, boys!”

    3. MissBliss*

      Ones where people are told they need to use land lines on resumes (either by Alison or whoever the OP is writing in about)!

    4. Yaz*

      Another one for me was the one where a woman who wants to work in sports management but couldn’t afford to do an unpaid internship. I’ve noticed in the last couple years there’s been a large shift in awareness around how unpaid internships promote inequality, that didn’t come up in the response or the comments

      1. Rayray*

        Yeah, I was vocal about this when I was in college just over 10 years ago and I always just got “That’s just the way it is! Suck it up” but I’d say these days, the majority are on board that internships should be paid.

      2. rock and roll saved my shower*

        Yeah, I’ve noticed Allison ran out of cope with a lot of exploitation and background radiation. Love to see it :D

      3. Irish Teacher.*

        In my college, we had to do either a year’s study abroad or a year’s work experience. The college insisted the work experience be paid. At the time, it seemed like a nuisance, especially since those of us on grants continued to get them that year (grants are means tested and about half the student population gets them, so those who don’t have families on higher-than-average incomes), but I guess they wanted both to ensure equality and to prevent people from just going to work for their dad or auntie for the year when there was really little or nothing for them to do and dad or auntie would give them a good report regardless of how they performed.

    5. Anna Badger*

      the one about whether women need to wear tights in the office, which sparked vociferous arguments in the comments

      1. Database Developer Dude*

        I’ve always thought that it was creepy to police womens’ bodies in the office, and forcing tights-wearing feels like trying to police womens’ bodies.

      2. wittyrepartee*

        I thought you meant like- black legging tights at first. I was like “Usually it’s the other way around! Everyone’s mad about women wearing tights without a sufficiently long shirt!”

    7. LifeBeforeCorona*

      Working from home. People used to be ecstatic if they could work from home one day a week. Then BOOM! everyone (almost everyone) was forced to work from home and the business world did not crash and burn. Also, people no longer bragged about dragging their sick bodies out into public. It’s no longer a badge of honour to show up anywhere when you are sick.

    9. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

      Most any that reference going into the office on a daily basis. :D

    10. cubone*

      I think there’s one or more about working two jobs from home where Alison really acknowledges the unfair and ridiculous power imbalance in employer-employee relationships and something about it being hard to give advice that you shouldn’t “take advantage” of an employer when they fully can and do take advantage of you.

      I can’t recall exactly how it was worded, but I thought those were amazing examples of someone learning and changing their opinions on something over time.

  6. BRR*

    Listing a promotion on a resume – I was recently promoted but my new title does not convey this, on paper it just looks like they changed my title to a parallel or even a lower one (and unfortunately this 100% will not change). My duties/accomplishments don’t differ between the two roles so the promotion doesn’t show that way. What’s the best way to list it?

    1. anonymous73*

      Just curious…if your duties didn’t change, what was the point of a promotion (I hope you at least got a raise)? Were you doing these things without the title prior to the official promotion? If your duties are the same, I would just change the title. You can always address the promotion in a CV when you apply for a job. And if you have been doing the duties of the promoted role before the actual promotion (say for the last 6 months or more), I would separate the job into 2 on your resume, modifying the dates based on when the new duties started.
      Senior Llama Groomer: Oct 2021 – present
      Llama Groomer: Start Date – Sept 2021

      1. BRR*

        Reading this and the other replies I realize I did a terrible job explaining things haha. I did get a raise. I was doing more advanced work and worked more independently than my original job description. I thought I would get a better title that clearly shows I’m higher up but I essentially went from Llama Groomer to Groomer of Llamas. If I just list the two titles on my resume with dates, it looks like I was just part of a rebranding effort.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          I think Alison has recommended putting a more obvious/explanatory title next to your actual title to better frame your job when the title is vague or confusing. Could you do something like:

          Llamas Inc 2018-Present
          -Groomer of Llamas (Senior Llama Groomer) 2022-Present
          -Llama Groomer 2018-2022

          This way you’re not misrepresenting your title, but you’re clarifying what the role actually is and how it compares to your previous less senior role. And as you perform the new role, you can list out the new advanced tasks you’re taking on as well as your accomplishments, which will further differentiate it from what you were doing before.

          Congrats on the promotion!

      2. PostalMixup*

        I was hired as a Senior Person, and then my company re-aligned their titles and added new tiers. What used to be a Senior Person was now a Person III, so when they promoted me to Senior Person, it came with a pay bump, but no apparent title increase.

    2. knope knope knope*

      Congrats! If the duties are the same, what makes it a promotion? More money? If you were just promoted it is pretty understandable there would be no new achievements but could you put a bullet like “*promoted from teapot producer to teapot editor, building on XXX achievements [achieved in last role]” and reword the earlier role a bit?

      1. WellRed*

        I had this happen. Job got reconfigured to include a lot more responsibility and a decent pay bump but there is literally no title in between mine and my boss’s. And adding senior won’t work.

    3. Savvy*

      Is your job description the exact same (no additional authority or responsibility) but just with a new title? If so I’m not sure other employers would view that as a promotion. If it were me I would probably just update my job title on my resume to reflect both with a slash in between, such as Llama Groomer / Llama Hygienest. It’s not worth listing them separately if you don’t have any new duties to add.

    4. Quinalla*

      With titles that don’t properly convey responsibilities, it can make sense to put a more appropriate title in parenthesis next to it like maybe your titles would like something like this and then use the bullets underneath to highlight accomplishments:

      Project Manager (Senior Project Supervisor) StartDate-present
      *
      *
      Project Supervisor StartDate-EndDate
      *
      *

      1. achiappanza*

        I like this idea.
        People reading resumes spend more effort trying to understand what you did than verifying with your old company that this was indeed your title.

    5. Fabulous*

      I’ve listed something in my first bullet to the effect of, “Promoted to XYZ for recognition of outstanding llama grooming abilities.”

  7. Pineapple*

    Can we ask for work-appropriate makeup recommendations here or is it better to post in the weekend thread? This is my first time navigating a business casual dress code and I’m not sure what lip colours are appropriate, so I’d love some guidance. In my personal life I gravitate towards very bright or dark lip colours, which I’d rather not wear to the office. People in my department tend to dress on the professional side, and I’m mindful of the fact that I’m one of the youngest, newest, and relatively junior. However, my current work lipsticks (Maybelline x Gigi Hadid in the shade Erin, and Urban Decay Vice in the shade 1993) aren’t cutting it for me because I feel like I can’t tell I even have them on :/ Any suggestions?

    Preferably drugstore. I don’t mind reapplying during the day but I’m looking for something that fades well. I prefer bullets over liquid lipsticks, and matte over cream (but non-drying please, as I’d be wearing it >10 hours a day!)

    Other information that might be relevant: My usual work outfit is a pop-of-(not too bright)-colour blouse and statement earrings with everything else black. I’m south Asian. Somehow I can’t think of a famous person who has a skin tone similar to mine – perhaps Maitreyi Ramakrishnan? I never could figure out my undertone but I think I look better in gold than in silver. Light/pale lip colours usually don’t look good on me. My favourite wear-with-everything lipstick is NYX Soft Matte Lip Cream in Copenhagen, but I am not sure if I can wear that to work.

    Thanks for reading, have a good weekend!

    1. ghostlight*

      I loveee this question. Personally, I think Copenhagen is totally fine for the office. But my favorite lipsticks that I wear on the daily include the Revlon Super Luscious Lipstick in Rum Raisin (very comfortable and fades well), and I also am a big fan of Pacifica’s Glow Stick Lip Oil in Rosy Glow (more of a sheer tint, but very easy wear, easy to reapply, and fades well). I also really enjoy any NYX lip products. The Powder Puff Lippie in Teacher’s Pet is a big fav of mine as well.

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        I think Copenhagen is fine for you to wear to the office too. It would be way too dark on me (I’m so pale I swear my skin is almost transparent) and would look more ‘extreme’ on me than on someone with a darker or warmer skin tone. It’s perfectly professional!
        Just go with makeup and nail colors (if you use polish) that works with your natural skin tone and that will look great AND professional.

    2. CrazyPlantLady*

      I’ve been working at a business casual office my entire career (beginning in 2011) and here is what I see (I’m also a woman but my makeup is very minimal, the only thing I do for lips is a lightly shaded balm).

      For those I see, everyone is pretty natural. There are some ladies who wear heavier make up, but the lip color is always pretty neutral. A nice pinkie nude, or perhaps a light shade of red/coral to add more color. I never see more than this.

    3. Picard*

      My go to for almost everything is Clinique Black Honey. Sounds dark, even LOOKS dark but it really really looks amazing on almost every skin tone! I’ll post some links in the reply.

      4. SansaStark*

        +1 – I’m very pale and I have seen so many skin tones rock this color. I don’t to call it universal, but I feel like it would be an undertone issue that would make it not work as opposed to a deepness issue.

      5. tamarak & fireweed*

        ROTFL, I literally just bought that. I’m a researcher in the earth sciences in an outdoorsy location – so a few notches below even business casual, except if a stray politician wants to talk about climate science or whatever. I haven’t used makeup in ages. But with going back to the office, and feeling the effect of the years on my skin, plus my career advancing in good ways I’ve recently felt the desire to step up my grooming marginally. Braved the doors of the Ulta store etc. Anyhoo, if the OP wants something understated, it certainly would fit the bill. Even I like it a lot.

        I looked up the NYX Soft Matte Lip Cream in the shade Copenhagen and think it probably looks fantastic on the OP’s skin tone – and I see nothing wrong with wearing it to work. For me, business casual also implies that work clothing is allowed to be to a degree comfortable. Strictly enforcing a (particular idea of a) business casual dress code would be a little bit ridiculous, I think.

    4. FromasmalltowninCanada*

      For what its worth – I think you’re overthinking this. Wear what you want. I might stay away from say blue eyeshadow, but normally red or bright lipstick is fine, unless your field is very conservative…and even then not sure it’s an issue. I googled the colour that’s your preference, I think it’s fine.

      1. Fran Fine*

        For what its worth – I think you’re overthinking this.

        I was going to say this same thing. I work in business casual environments (now virtually), and I’ve always worn bright, bold lip colors. I’ve also always been complimented on them too.

        OP, if you want to wear neutral colors, Dose of Colors has amazing neutral/subtle lip colors you can wear that last all day. They have non-sticky lip glosses and liquid matte lips colors that are very pretty, vegan, and gluten free. Some of my faves are Macchiato, Truffle, Stone, and Cork. They’re also pretty cheap (lip glosses are around $8.50 and lipsticks are usually $16), and they also have regular sales.

    5. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      For work, I tend to go with the “your lips but better” shades. Ones that are close in color to your actual lip color. I’d pick up something in that range for yourself to start and then watch what your coworkers wear. There’s also nothing wrong with a classic red lip. When I worked in an office, I would often wear bright lipsticks – I had a bright orange, bright pinks, deeeeeep purples (like Copenhagen). I would just avoid things that read too “unnatural” the way blues, greens and light purples do.

    6. Bacu1a*

      I really like Lipstick Queen Frog Prince, it’s a nice pink that changes based on your skin tone. I also wear a lot of Burt’s Bee’s lip shimmers.

      You also may want to try tinted lip balms, I have an NYX Butter lip balm that’s a very bright pink. It’s still bright, but because it’s balm it’s thinner coverage and therefore less bold than lipstick.

    7. Susan Calvin*

      You can probably judge the context of your office best, but my two cents? A bold lip (if it’s like, a dignified matte red/purple like the one you mention, rather than glittery pink or neon green) is probably fine with business casual. Overly elaborate eye make-up is much more jarring for daytime looks, in my opinion!

      1. Ginger Baker*

        ^came here to say this. I rarely wear makeup at all but sometimes I have long periods where I wear lipstick. It’s invariably a BRIGHT, VERY BOLD red, like RED red. (I am very VERY pale so when I say it’s bright I really mean it.) It’s 100% a non-issue and I work in a very corporate BigLaw firm and am in my 40s (read: I’ve been doing this a long time now). Eye makeup that is Dramatic is a lot more noticeable as being maybe more “date night” vs work day; lipstick as long as it isn’t glitter-filled or maybe straight black or like…blue…isn’t a big deal at all.

    8. PRM*

      I’m also South Asian and work in a conservative business casual environment. I wear wild lipstick – deep plums, hot pink, etc. because that is how I express myself and they look good on me. But that’s not what you asked. Here’s are some more ‘subtle’ brands/colors that work:

      Touché by MAC
      Verve by MAC
      NARS Soft Matte Tinted Lip Balm in whatever ‘nude’ works for you
      Fenty Beauty by Rihanna Gloss Bomb Universal Lip Luminizer in Fenty Glow
      ILIA Balmy Tint Hydrating Lip Balm in Wanderlust
      Mati Rose by Tanais (this is a South Asian beauty brand; there are others. Their colors are for us.)

      1. IT Manager*

        Thank you for that Tanais info… I’m not the OP but I just googled it and there is something so shocking and amazing about seeing those colors on people who look like me (ok, prettier than me but you know what I mean). Those purples! Those browns!! Wow.

    9. Avril Ludgateau*

      I don’t know your skin tone so I can’t make recommendations for colors, but I will say, one of my favorite formulas for lip color is Mac’s “Powder Kiss”. I know it isn’t drug store, and it’s pricey (it’s a little more expensive than their other formulas, for whatever reason) but Mac will sometimes have 30-40% off sales and maybe you could wait for one? Anyway, the reason I recommend it is because you asked for something that “fades well”. It’s got this really interesting “soft matte” formula that doesn’t feel heavy or dry like other mattes can, and it goes on kind of sheer, so even if you got a vivid or deep color, you could tone it down.

      I’ve seen some luxury brands coming out with similar “soft matte” or “sheer matte” formulas but I wouldn’t recommend them because they’re, like, twice the price of even Powder Kiss, and I want to respect your budget. But usually makeup trends tend to make their way from the dept. store to the drug store in time, and I wouldn’t be surprised if something like NYX or Milani or e.l.f. has a comparable product? I just checked Ulta and they have a line called “suede matte”, maybe that is similar!

      I (used to?) love UD’s Vice bullets, too, for the wealth of colors and finishes, but I know they changed up their formula recently so it’s possible that my collection no longer reflects what they’re selling.

    10. SansaStark*

      You might also want to consider continuing to wear the deep or bright shades that you like but maybe in a more sheer/glossy formula. That might be a nice bridge between wearing what you like but toning it down a smidge if you feel like you need to. But I mainly agree with the other commenters who say to wear what you like!

    11. wittyrepartee*

      Oh! I’m a light hispanic person, but if you can’t figure out your undertone, you’re probably neutral and can wear a bunch of different shades.
      If you normally like something bright (I’m into intense reds), I might suggest going with a berry color for work. More subtle, but not boring.

    12. These Are My Formal Jorts*

      I also default to a bright lipstick, but for work, I’ll just take the same lipstick and dab it with my finger to diffuse it. That way I am getting the same color and tone but without as much punch.

    13. RagingADHD*

      Copenhagen looks fine for the office, as long as you’re not overdoing the eyes and cheeks. I think a bright lip looks best “French style,” where the rest of the face is very understated.

      My favorite drugstore lip color for work or dressing up slightly is super cheap – Wet n Wild megaslicks balm stain in 125 – “Red-dy or Not.” It’s a nice classic red, but it’s slightly translucent because of the balminess. Not very matte but also not super glossy. It looks just right on video calls. I’m not 100% sure if they still make it, but if you look it up you’ll see the color.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Copenhagen looks fine for the office, as long as you’re not overdoing the eyes and cheeks.

        This is the approach I take. I wear bold lip colors (e.g., hot pink, orange, bright coral), but make sure the rest of my makeup is subtle. If my eye color is bright (because I do love bright eye colors in the spring/summer), then I keep my lip color to a neutral shade.

        1. pancakes*

          Same. I almost never wear eye makeup besides mascara and brow stuff (Milk makeup Kush brow fiber gel, lately). I’d like to wear bright eye colors now and then but I’m pale with big eyes and that is a lot of look on me.

    14. pancakes*

      I was going to say, NYX is a great drugstore brand for matte texture in particular. I looked at Copenhagen and I don’t think it’s unprofessional. If you have very pale skin it’s going to be a bit dramatic, but not so much so that it’s unwearable for work, I think.

      1. pancakes*

        I should add, also have a look at two Korean brands: Peripera Ink Velvet lip tint and 3CE velvet tint.

    15. All Het Up About It*

      Agree with the others that you could probably wear Copenhagen and be fine.

      However, if you do want something more neutral I’ve found that darker brown colors tend to read more neutral, even when they are dark. So perhaps, in that same line try Dubai or Berlin?

    16. WantonSeedStitch*

      Unless you have such super pale skin that Copenhagen stands out really starkly against it (but with the Ramakrishnan comparison, it seems unlikely), Copenhagen should be fine for daily wear. My own complexion is more like Kim Kardashian without the fake tan, and I’ve worn Copenhagen to work on days when I had important meetings and wanted to look polished and professional.

    17. Dancing Otter*

      Red is classic. There’s a reason Revlon’s Fire & Ice has been in continuous production for 70 years. And there’s a shade of red for every skin tone. I can’t advise you more specifically, because what looks on my just-crawled-out-from-under-a-rock pale complexion probably wouldn’t suit you.
      Or you could just keep your mask on, and wear whatever you like.

    18. Two Chairs, One to Go*

      Echoing everyone who says wear what you want! I really like Fresh lip balm – it comes in different colors. It’s more expensive than drug store but it’s the only lip product I continuously use up and buy a new one!

    19. NorthBayTeky*

      I love this question. Not because I have some advice for you, I totally do not. I don’t even wear makeup, not even lipstick, just Burt’s Bees lip balm. But I totally love that you are asking for makeup advice. And it looks like you’re getting some good feedback as well.

      Alison is truly The Bomb! <3

    20. Delta Delta*

      My favorite lipstick is from Model Co in Siena. It’s a little more expensive than drugstore brands but it’s got good texture, the color is true and it Stays On without getting cakey. They’ve got a good range of colors. Good luck in your hunt!

  8. PX*

    Not sure if this is happening all over Reddit, but a couple of UK town specific subreddits (eg r/London and r/Bristol) have been doing their own version of “share your salary” threads! So if anyone wants to have a peruse at some slightly more local salary data, have a look!

    Also, if the Product Operations Manager who shared their salary in Alisons post a few weeks back wants to talk, I’m interested in building a bit of a network (just starting out as one!) so if you see this – hi!

    1. Pascall*

      There’s also a new TikTok account called “salarytransparentstreet” that I’ve been keeping an eye on where a host goes around from city to city, asking people what they do and what they make. It’s super enlightening and really makes me sure that I’m doing the right thing by interviewing for higher paying jobs.

    3. MigraineMonth*

      I got excited about this, then remembered that as a public sector employee my salary is already posted on a government website.

    1. anonymous73*

      It kind of depends on what you’re referencing, but generally I would say within the few weeks.

    2. Quinalla*

      Honestly, if I was asking the question I’d define it …recently (in the last 2 weeks). If someone asked, I’d probably resubmit and say – I submitted this X days/weeks ago, figured that counted as recently, thanks!

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Assuming this is about questions to the site: I ask that you wait at least a few weeks.

      My response time really varies — sometimes it’s really fast (within a couple of days) and sometimes it can take quite a few months, since my backlog is large and I don’t answer in the order things are received. But I know it’s not reasonable to ask you to wait longer than a few weeks, especially when a response isn’t guaranteed. Also, if you want, you can always email me and ask if I have yours in the “about to definitely answer” queue, and I can let you know.

    4. enough*

      Alison has usually referenced 2-4 weeks but you can email her and ask if your question is in her .

  10. ThatGirl*

    My husband has been working at a small college counseling center for 11 years, and he’s the longest-tenured of the bunch. Last year the director and a counselor left. A new director was hired pretty quickly, but there’s been an open counselor position this whole time (they are just now hiring someone). The new director is decidedly not a great manager. (Yes, my husband is looking for a new job.)

    As the most recent example, his other coworker got into a car accident last week (she’s OK, but had whiplash) and missed work and an interview for this new hire. She texted as soon as her phone had power again to let everyone know, and when she came back to work, the director *demanded* to see paperwork from her ER visit. Don’t know if the director thought she was lying or WHAT, but it was just the last straw in a string of bad things… so his coworker drafted her resignation and will be on her way out this summer. I just cannot even imagine what was going through the director’s head, but that’s been true for a lot of her decisions he’s told me about…

    1. TiffIf*

      UGH
      I ended up with food poisoning (mild, as in I didn’t need to go to urgent care for fluids-but still felt terrible for about 36 hours) on Monday evening which meant I was sick on Tuesday–I texted my boss at 6AM my time, 8 AM her time and let her know I was sick and wouldn’t be on. I IMed my coworkers asking one to keep an eye on the shared email that is primarily my responsibility and letting others know I would be out and set an OOO message for any clients to see if they tried to contact. Then I disconnected and spent a day fairly miserable. Wednesday I managed to work half a day but then had to take the rest of the day off because I still wasn’t feeling well enough. Thursday my stomach mostly felt better but I was still rather exhausted though I worked a full day. Today I finally feel like a full human.

      My boss and coworkers’ reactions to all of this? “So sorry you’re not feeling well, hope you get better soon!”

      And this when we are currently down a worker so I have no actual redundancy–coworker who watched the shared email used to be in the same position as me so we had redundancy but he just took a different position internally. He is helping out with his old duties until we are able to back-fill but 90% of the time he is doing his new role.

      Why why why why why can’t people just trust adults to be adults until proven otherwise?

      1. JelloStapler*

        Exactly- we had a fmaily emergency and I basically had to say “I’ll be remote until … well, I don’t know when” and they were all “What can we do to help” “Take what you need!”…THAT is the response you need.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Welp, I do not know all the details but apparently his coworker’s last day is now…. today.
      What a mess. This director is not fit to be a director.

  11. Steggy Saurus*

    I have an interview with a company that provides SASS and at my current job I’m in contact with an employee from that SASS company as they set up a workflow for us. Is it inappropriate for me to ask that employee what the company structure and culture is like? The employee works in a different department from where I’m interviewing, if that matters.

    1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Heck no! If you already know someone who works there, by all means ask them! They might not have too many specific details about your particular department or role, but they could answer any overall questions.

    3. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      It is totally normal to do, just make sure you aren’t reaching out to them via your current work modes.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        Thanks folks! It’s a change in industry for me (from academic to profit-based business) and for some reason it just felt odd to do something like that.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood, CTA*

      Acronym definition request! My occasionAL reminder.
      There are 54 options on
      acronyms dot thefreedictionary dot com
      I think in this question it doesn’t affect the answer…but sometimes it does.

  12. tnt*

    You could do
    New Title (March 2021 – Present), promoted from Old Title (January 2019 – March 2021)

  13. To Sleep, Perchance to Dream*

    I was at near sleep last night and had a thought… Blind interviews. Y’know how on The Voice, judges can’t see the singer until they hit the button and say they like them. What if we did the same with interviews. Remove personal identifiers – sex, name, possibly location – and interviewers just talked over the phone. Wouldn’t get to meet the person until they confirmed they were a finalist for the job.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Hmmm… would you disguise their voices to hide their sex? This could help hide their age as well.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        That’s a very different dynamic than voice (even disguised voice) and much easier to have multiple there answering questions.

        This is tough because if you disguise a person’s looks you also lose non-verbal communications that allow a conversations to flow better.

    3. I edit everything*

      I have heard of companies doing something similar, and of orchestras that do blind auditions. I’m in favor!

      1. Quinalla*

        Yes, several orchestras have been moving to blind auditions – they did have to put down sound absorption on the floor so they couldn’t guess woman/man on the sound of heels (not that is 100% accurate). And when they did it, they found themselves with about 50/50 men/women instead of way more men than women. Unconscious bias is rough :(

        Blind interviews are hard to do for most other professions though. What can help is to make sure your candidate pool is diverse as unconscious bias doesn’t affect us as much if there are say 2 women and 4 men instead of 1 woman and 5 men. Substitute POC/white, etc. – same deal.

        1. MissElizaTudor*

          I think you’re referencing the Goldin and Rouse paper on the effect of blind auditions, although that didn’t show a 50/50 gender split. You might be thinking of the fact that the blind auditions increased the probability a woman would be advanced by 50%?

          As an aside, I looked into that study a while ago and it turns out it has some serious flaws (there’s a blog post by a Columbia University professor that points some of them out), so it’s unfortunately not a great go-to example of dealing with discrimination. US orchestras have gotten pretty close to 50/50 overall, though, so they did something right!

    4. Savvy*

      Some companies do blind screening where HR removes all personal identifiers that might show age/sex/any other protected class, and then they pass the redacted applications/resumes to managers to review. But I don’t think this would work beyond application screening since it’s usually pretty easy to tell information about someone even just with their voice. I guess it may still be helpful as it’s limiting a lot of other biases, but sometimes the voice does give away sex/gender/age and sometimes nationality etc. if they have an accent or certain way of talking.

    5. Becky*

      A few years ago nearest Big City Symphony was looking for a new Concert Master and held auditions. Candidates during the audition were only identified by a number and were behind a screen so they could not be seen. Candidates were instructed to remove their shoes so those evaluating the auditions wouldn’t get any identifying cues from the sound their footwear made (IE, heels). That is the most anonymous I have ever heard of an “interview” being but it is also one where your evaluation is not dependent on answering questions and demonstrating domain knowledge, etc–its your performance that matters.

      Not sure how far it can be stretched when it comes to contexts where you have to be able to ask/answer questions.

      1. Symphony Board member*

        Our local Symphony exclusively does blind auditions for section players and principals with the panel voting on who moves forward to the next round or finally gets the offer. This may be local, but our Music Director has same number of votes as the rest of the panel for the finalists, he can overrule the panel if he doesn’t like something he hears during the auditions.

        The Concert Master position is different (at least for us), they are the Music Director’s assistant leading rehearsals, plus they lead the String section in general so they have to work with the whole orchestra.

        Because they aren’t just section players they rehearse and play with the entire orchestra as their ‘audition’ but the Music Director has sole say in the selection.

    6. SoloKid*

      I’m pretty much in favor. Should school names be included in what gets redacted (on resumes)? HBCUs and University of [location] can hint to demographics as well.

      1. Princess Xena*

        Name, gender, and age are all things that should have no correlation to ability, while the choice of college does. Yes, it can hint to demographics, but it can also let you know if it’s a credible university or if it’s somewhere that espouses really negative social policies or is known for having very unethical/ineffective teaching methods. Plus people travel for college really frequently, so where one went to college is not necessarily an indicator of where or what they are now.

        1. another_scientist*

          College could indicate the skills and experience a candidate brings, but on the other hand, potential to succeed isn’t as easy to predict. Someone might not have had as many opportunities to shine at a small, less well funded college, but they might absolutely succeed when given the opportunity to do the job. You certainly need to look at the college eventually (confirm that it’s an accredited program, contact a supervisor for reference), but there are arguments to be made to have a selection step in the process that redacts the college.

        2. Software Dev (she/her)*

          Uh choice of college is much more tied to wealth than ability. Many people go to the college they can afford.

        3. We Do That*

          My company has actually started asking candidates not to include their school names on their resume. We’ve also moved away from requiring degrees for most positions.

        4. AcademiaNut*

          You need a two-phase system for this. Strip the names of educational institutes off the resume so the interviewer doesn’t see them, but have a second person, not directly involved in interviewing, check for problems (degree from for profit university, institutes that espouse values incompatible with your workplace, etc.). Then the return back cleared/not cleared rather than the prestigiousness of the institute. You can do something similar with googling people’s online presence – have someone not the interviewer do it, and return back okay / problematic.

    7. Dragonfly7*

      My current pet peeve is interviewers who won’t allow me to see THEM on virtual interviews (video off or lighting), so yes please.

    8. Rosemary*

      I think this could work for early round interviews, but for many roles, presentation and how someone speaks/interacts is important to assess for the role (and to a lesser extent – personality/fit). I once interviewed a woman who “on paper” was AMAZING. If I were hiring based on resume alone, she would have been hired in a heartbeat. However once I met her in person… not so great. She was exceptionally soft spoken, and for lack of a better description… was just very “awkward” in how she held herself. That might be fine for some jobs, but the role in question required a lot of in person interaction of a certain level with clients, and I knew immediately she would not be a fit. Is this fair? Maybe not. But in this case it was simply a reality that she probably would not have succeeded (or it would have been very challenging).

      In another job, I interviewed someone who I just knew I would not be able to tolerate because they just grated on me. Again, is that fair? Probably not. But I would be working closely with them and just…couldn’t. (Thew were also one of several equally qualified candidates…so even if they had not grated on me, there still was a very high probability that someone else would have been hired anyway)

    9. Esmeralda*

      Good impulse. But you can pick up a lot of info from voices: sex, age, race, ethnicity, class, education, region… not 100% accurately, but a lot.

  14. JH*

    I’ve been actively job hunting because I’m overworked and burnt out in my current position. Recently, I’ve got past the final interview phase and writing sample with an organization. It’s been almost 4 weeks since my final interview and I’ve heard absolutely nothing from the recruiter or hiring manager. It feels so odd to me that it was “hurry, hurry, hurry” to fit in three interviews and a writing sample in a span of two weeks to then hear absolutely nothing from the team. They had told me that I’d hear something within two weeks so after that I followed up with the recruiter, but still nothing. Is it normal to be completely ghosted like this? I know the advice is to generally put it out of your mind, but knowing that the job market is more in the employee’s favor right now I guess I’m surprised by so little communication. Is this happening to other people?

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Eh. Companies still think it’s the great recession. Move on to a company that is moving with the times.

    2. anonymous73*

      Yes unfortunately it’s normal. If they told you 2 weeks, you reached out to the recruiter and heard nothing, assume they’ve ghosted you. Of course there could be any number of legitimate reasons you haven’t heard from them, but it’s best to assume it’s a no and move on. If they do finally contact you, don’t count them out immediately if they give you an offer. Consider their reason for the delay when making a decision.

    3. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Yes this is happening to me. I did a final round interview over a month ago. Job is still listed as active and I haven’t been rejected. But I’m assuming they offered someone else and they won’t officially reject me until that person actually starts, so in case they end up not taking the job, I’d be offered. Which does happen. I get why HR doesn’t tell the #2 or #3 choice.

      But yes this is common. After the time I was told I’d hear back and I haven’t , I just assume they offered to someone else. Sure I could get a surprise, but with zero communication from them, I’d guess not.

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        Also adding. Today I got an email to set up an interview with the hiring manager, I did the initial HR screen over a month ago. I had totally written it off that I was not selected to move on. You really never know, but it is best to move on.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      Basically the exact same thing happened to me. I honestly wasn’t super interested in the job, so it’s no big deal to me. However, leaving things unresolved annoys me.

    5. OtraBibliotecaria*

      I had a great Zoom interview, they told me they’ll get back to me in a couple of weeks, after 4 weeks I sent a short email “still interested, etc” and… crickets. Nada. No closure. I’ve been a hiring Manager myself, we send an email as soon as our first choice says yes, I don’t get the ghosting.

  15. Please Remove Your Monkeys from My Circus*

    Procedural question: I’m going to apply for a position at a smallish-but-growing nonprofit. There are two openings I’m qualified for, would do well, and would enjoy (and have the same starting salary—hooray for orgs that out there info). I would prefer one over the other, but am open to discussing and being considered for both. I have to submit for a specific role through their system. So, my question: do I apply for both (with similar but modified resumes and cover letters), or do I apply for my first choice but say in the letter that I’m open to being considered for the other? What’s the best approach here?

    2. Grant*writer**

      I think I would apply for both and mention in both cover letters that I’m interested in the other job too. I’m not sure if I’d indicate that one is my preference at this stage; you’d presumably know more after an interview (maybe one is better on skillset but you like the manager of the other more, or the other has more room for growth etc etc). My reasoning for applying for both is that you don’t know from the outside if there’s one hiring manager or if it’s two separate people.

    3. Feeling Trapped*

      I’d say just apply for the one. At a small organization the hiring managers are likely overlapping, if not the same, so if they think you’re a great fit for the other position I think they’d let you know. (I once interviewed for a position and they contacted me the next day asking me to interview for a different position) And it’s likely that the jobs have overlap as well! So mention it in your letter, but just focus on making the one application great. If you get an interview you can talk about your flexibility there, too!

    4. Alexis Rosay*

      Hmmm, I think it depends on how similar the two positions are, but I’d say probably put your focus on the one that you’re most interested in. I used to work for a small nonprofit and I do remember when the same person applied for two very different roles with us (a few months apart), it caused some people to doubt how interested/committed they were to working in a specific role. Like, you previously said you were super passionate about X and now you’re super passionate about Y?

      It’s not fair because obviously job seekers *have* to say those kinds of things, but that’s the impression some people on the hiring committee took away.

      If the two roles are reasonably similar, I think it’s fine to say in your cover letter that you’d also be open to the other role. If they responsibilities are quite different, I wouldn’t even mention the other one.

      1. Please Remove Your Monkeys from My Circus*

        Thanks. The roles are similar, but geared toward different clients, basically. (Not a sales position, but equivalent to selling widgets to corporate clients vs selling widgets to government agencies. So lots of overlap, but room for specialized knowledge of the particular needs of the different end users. My current role is basically selling a different type of widget to both of those types of clients.) This it’s helpful.

        1. Anne of Green Gables*

          I love your username!

          It might be worth asking someone at the employer if they have a system where you have to apply to each job separately. At my workplace, you must apply for any individual opening, so what some of the other commenters are suggesting wouldn’t work.

    5. Haha Lala*

      Since you said the roles are similar, I’d suggest keeping the same resume for both applications (if you do apply to both). Both will likely be directed to just one person in charge of hiring, and they might be confused as to why your resumes are different. If you wanted to have a separate cover letter for each position, that’d make sense.

    6. Cascadia*

      Where I work it’s definitely a red or at least pink flag when people apply to multiple jobs. We are a fairly well-known organization in our field/location and a lot of people ‘want to work for organization’ while we are looking for the best person for a specific job. Could someone do multiple different jobs? sure! But our jobs are different enough that it is suspect. Especially people that apply to 5, 6, or 7 open positions. That just says to us that they are not interested in any one job, they just want to work at our org, and it definitely hurts their application. If I were you, I would just apply to the one job, but if you get an interview and it comes up, you could mention that you were interested in both.

  16. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    How would you like work to be designed in an ideal world? I’d like it’d to be easier to have a job- like maybe have only 30 hours a week of activities you MUST do, and then enough slack for emergencies or bad days. I’d have health care and UBI because many people still wouldn’t be able to work.

    I’m thinking of this as I approach 40, my health fading. I no longer can keep up a full time job which is a tragedy.

    1. CrazyPlantLady*

      I’d like a Monday through Thursday job, same hours are fine (8hrs/day).

      I’d like a minimum of 5 weeks PTO, with a paid 4-week sabbatical 4 few years (in addition to PTO).

      I’d like the ability to work full remote where ever I’d like (not live anywhere else, just be able to spend a few weeks on the beach in Puerto Rico if I’d like). but I also enjoy coming to an office and socializing, so I wouldn’t want to be full remote.

      My current healthcare and other bennies are great, so no changes there.

      1. Grant*writer**

        Monday through Thursday 10 to 3 is probably enough to get things done realistically, in my field.

    2. Jora Malli*

      I think the thing I want the most is for employers to be realistic about the number of people they need to accomplish all their tasks. I work in public libraries and the staffing model everywhere I’ve worked has been that fully staffed=bare minimum number of people required with no buffer for when people are sick, on vacation, or leave their jobs. I feel like I’ve been working at emergency levels for years, and that the problem wouldn’t exist if leadership decided that the staffing model should be bare minimum + 2.

      1. anxious teacher*

        Ooof, this! K-12 education over here – our salaries are actually okay, but that’s because we don’t have anything like the staff we need for our programs. It was bad enough pre-COVID; now, when a wave goes through the school, the teachers who aren’t sick wind up getting pulled to cover for those who are out.

        1. Jora Malli*

          I’m from a family of teachers and I totally understand how the bare minimum staffing model hurts you all as well. The district where one of my relatives works offers a certain number of paid sick days for each teacher, but the substitute teacher budget isn’t enough to cover that many sick days so people end up coming in sick or taking on 6 extra students for the day because they can’t get a sub. It’s awful all the way around.

      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Nod and the time needed. With things going back in person, they need to factor in things like ” ok they’re in an unnecessary in person thing so we can’t ask for the same level of paperwork” or ” what do we do when the entire team is sick?”

      3. JustaTech*

        Everywhere, everywhere should appropriately staff. I work in industry (so on the for-profit side of life) and our new CEO is on a “replace no one” kick, which means if someone get sick or goes on leave or quits there is no one else to do that job. So it either doesn’t get done or you end up with one person being on call at all times for something that is a legal requirement.

        (We were told we would have to use “grit” to get through this. No. You need to hire more people, not just keep piling stuff on the dwindling number of people you do have.)

      4. another_scientist*

        ugh, yes. My mom was a caseworker in a public job. At some point, the politician in charge decided that any year the department was able to meet the performance metric (number of cases processed), that meant that he could cut a percentage of staff. He was in office for a couple of years, and the damage is still felt in the department over 10 years later.

      5. Hotdog not dog*

        YES!!!
        Nearly every job I’ve ever had has been understaffed. I don’t mind working hard, but simply cannot maintain “crisis mode” indefinitely.

      6. JelloStapler*

        Higher Ed is similar- How can we cut costs on the backs of staff and faculty? if we can avoid hiring and just give these people more to do (but not give them more money) – we win!

      7. J*

        My friend used to work for the same government agency I did. I worked there circa 2012-2014, she was there pre-recession from 2002-2006. Somehow, despite our county quadrupling in size, we had half the staff. But ignoring that she also had two floaters who helped cover lunch breaks, vacations, maternity leave, etc. And then the entire government had a small floater pool to help with seasonal tasks, like election support and then onto property assessments and tax receipt processing and some on summer tasks like concession booths at pools or park support and maternity leave support where they could. It made so much sense so naturally they got rid of it.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I would like to be truly 100% trusted to get my work done with some days being “let me just check my emails a few times” and others being 8 or more if necessary.

      1. Be kind, rewind*

        YES. I hate having to feel productive when there’s nothing to work on. I can only read industry news and watch excel how-tos for a few hours before I’m bored out of my mind.

      2. Unkempt Flatware*

        Yep! In my line of work, transportation planning, I just want to be paid for my work. I want to completely define my own hours outside of required meetings.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      4 day work week with the expecation of 6 hours a day which is only 24 hours a week (!!), but my complaint is that my reasonable 40 hour a week job eats into my personal activities more than I’d like so a 3 day weekend every weekend and a few less hours of work expected in a day.

      I get great PTO and sick leave so I wouldn’t change that.Health benefits are a must until American healthcare system is fixed so that a job is not required for reasonably priced healthcare.

      1. pancakes*

        The four day workweek seems to be going well in places that have tried it, and more places are trying it. Lithuania has just given it to new parents.

        https://www.euronews.com/next/amp/2022/04/04/the-four-day-week-which-countries-have-embraced-it-and-how-s-it-going-so-far

        https://qz.com/work/2157973/lithuania-will-give-a-four-day-workweek-to-new-parents/amp/

        https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-60793832.amp

        https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-63-the-current/clip/15904836-canadian-workplaces-increased-productivity-four-day-work-week

      3. Fushi*

        Gosh, that sounds amazing! I have chronic illness issues and I feel like this is the schedule that would actually allow me to function at work and not just lie on the floor the rest of the time…

    5. Spearmint*

      I wish there were more office/professional jobs that were <40 hours per week, but still offered full benefits (PTO and health insurance especially) and high level work.

      I would seriously consider taking a 20% pay cut if I could work four eight-hour days, but the reason I don’t is that PTO, health insurance, and professional development are important to me, and part time office jobs usually lack all three, and never have all of them.

    6. Golden*

      This thread already has great ideas! I would wish for more flexibility around benefits. I don’t need our tuition repayment benefit (I know I’m lucky here), and would be thrilled if I could exchange it for a childcare stipend. I realize some of that stuff is tied up in the tax system and COVID relief, but in an ideal world it’d be great if you could swap between the ‘non-traditional’ benefits like tuition assistance, child/elder/pet care, fitness stipend, etc.

    7. just another bureaucrat*

      One of the things I’d like is mandatory vacation usage and mandatory sabbatical. 4 weeks every 5 years, must take off, must be paid, must not be expected to work. BYE! And even like 5 days a year where people MUST NOT work. Not where you have it there, but that it’s out the door with you.

      I’d also like more slack in the work for learning and growth.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Oh yes. There’s so much I want to do – classes,reading books, to grow in my field but I can’t because I’m inputting form 38b

    8. These Are My Formal Jorts*

      This started as a joke but I fully back it: 4/20/69. 4 day workweek, 20 hrs a week, $69 an hour.

      Almost every construct we has was built around the idea that one person in the home would work 40 hours a week, and one person would attend to everything else in the home. Now that we have so graciously let the women into the workforce (eyeroll), it feels like we should adjust and assume two people will work 20 hours a week each. This leaves enough time for quality time with family, exercise or whatever joyful movement you need, plenty of time to take care of the home, and to pursue creative endeavors that allow you to feel balanced in your personal and professional life.

      4 days a week allows for some flexibility in days off, and $69/hr is a living wage.

      And if I can’t have that, I would like to be able to call into work Sad or Tired, thanks.

      1. C*

        Okay your comment on the work hours per household is brilliant. I haven’t been able to place why I think I should work less than 40 hours a week, but really, my household is working 80 hours a week and stuff at home just… does not get done. 40 hours a week per HOUSEHOLD to survive, please.

        1. Person from the Resume*

          Nope. That’s not the same. I’m a single person and have to manage my entire household myself. I don’t have anyone to share housework and chores with like couples do. I still need more personal time than 40 hours of work a week affords me.

          That’s why These Are My Formal Jorts said hours a 20 hrs a week per person and not 40 per household which seems to assume everyone is engaged in a two couple household.

          1. Jora Malli*

            Exactly. I shouldn’t have to work twice as hard as everybody else just because I’m not married.

      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Oh yea doctors are always wondering why no one does their diet plan. I’d eat healthier if I didn’t get in at 630 at night hungry as heck.

      3. WantonSeedStitch*

        Yeah, if I could work that schedule and get my current pay, I’d be all for it! I love my son and I love spending time with him, but I could never be content without also having a job. But having a full-time job–even though it’s one that I also really love!–is very hard while also trying to parent a toddler. Not to mention that I never have time to do things like vacuum, dust, etc.

    9. Sylvan*

      In a perfect world, I’d still work 40ish hours a week. But it would be from 4 PM to midnight.

      Some people are borderline nocturnal! Let us do office work at night!!

    10. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      I was just talking with my coworkers about how it would be nice if there was a ‘telework month’ option. We’re a hybrid office (3 days in office/2 days telework per week). And I was thinking it would be nice for people to be able to go to locations and not have to burn through all of their vacation time. I knew a guy that was a super early riser and he took his family to Disney for two weeks and he worked from like 4am until the parks opened, so he ended up only using like less than half the vacation time he would have had to use (this was pre-COVID too!). I was just thinking about those who have families further away too, wouldn’t it be nice for those that don’t have the full remote option to be able to just go visit family for a month instead of a week that ends up being like 1/3 just traveling?

    11. Maxysmom*

      This makes me realize (yet again!) how lucky I am. I have to work 20 hours/week, but can work more if there is a need. I am fully remote, from day 1 (started in 2019). We even moved many states a year ago and my office never batted an eye. I am well-compensated, i.e., earning the same amount for this point in my career as if I was working fulltime, but just pro-rated for the actual hours I bill. I was out of the workforce for about 7 years with kids and this has let me come back in a very meaningful, respected way where I feel like I’m using my skills and experience well. Vacation time is average, but I have taken very little over the last two years because my time is so flexible. I can generally schedule meetings around picking up my kids at school every day at 3 or taking them to a doctor’s appointment. The best part? I get full benefits for the family, which has allowed my husband to switch jobs with so much less stress. Halftime work, well-compensated, valued, flexible time, full benefits???? It’s a unicorn job and I’m very appreciative.

      1. AnotherJen*

        Can second how powerful this is — I work somewhere between zero and 45 hours/week (I’m an independent consultant, so it varies depending on how we are with projects) and get paid … “well” and I bill hourly. My primary project manager is awesome — I’ve been following him around for 20+ years at this point, and I really like my work group, and feel respected by clients. When our kids were really small, I worked during naps, and evenings, and then when they were in school. I’m available to be the “mostly available” parent during the days, and I have time to do stuff like exercising and meal planning, so the Mr. (who brings in somewhat bigger bucks, as well as benefits) can be available to the kids while I’m fixing dinner, which is fine by me.

    12. Girasol*

      Health insurance is not tied to the job (US, of course.) Even though there are some alternatives, employer-sponsored health insurance often traps people in jobs they don’t like.

      1. Jora Malli*

        1000% this. Tying health insurance to employment is clearly not a model that works and I wish there was any sort of real action happening to change it. A lot of lobbying and a lot of speechifying is happening, but no real steps.

      2. IT Manager*

        +1000 this.

        No other reforms will work until people can get healthcare without relying on employers.

        It also creates this societal dynamic where each couple has to decide who has to be the “person with benefits” and who can choose flexibility or try risky career paths. And if you’re not coupled-up, you obviously don’t even have that choice.

    13. Dragon*

      My office returned about two months ago, with hybrid schedules for everyone whose job can be done remotely.

      I discovered I prefer working in the office, though I changed my commute for the return and it’s a lot better than before. I’d like the flexibility to schedule an occasional WFH day when an after-work event is close to my home.

      I could take a vacation day for that, but why lose a day’s work when I don’t need the day off?

    14. MissElizaTudor*

      In an ideal world? Zero hours a week.

      In an ideal world, no one would have to any of their very limited lifespan working to make money just to get the things they need to thrive.

  17. Blue River*

    I was asked to talk to junior college students majoring in English Lit (which was also my major) about my experience in writing an undergrad thesis and how it helps me in my career (academia-adjacent, but not in fields commonly associated with an English degree). It’s been a couple of years, and the lessons that stick with me the most are soft skill ones: how to accept feedback and similar stuff. The technical stuff, like writing and researching, were already covered in previous classes, so I didn’t learn anything particularly new during the writing period.

    If you were a member of the audience, what would you like to hear about?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Maybe the process itself? What are the steps, how long should each step take, etc.

      1. KateM*

        Yeah, “where to start”. :D I know that the classic advice is “Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end: then stop.”, but that’s not at all like I wrote mine (but it wasn’t in English lit), in fact I think that Introduction was the thing I wrote just before I wrote Summary.

        1. WellRed*

          Interesting! As a reporter, when people ask me for writing advice mine is always, don’t feel you need to start at the beginning.

    2. Susan Calvin*

      Time/Project management, far and away. Also, what I need out of a supervisor to work best (altough I don’t exactly *recommend* having to start over with a new one halfway through)

    3. Doctors Whom*

      “Things I wish someone had told me before I started X.”

      It’s easy to frame that in a positive way, but I’d consider this an opportunity to help a new generation of students in your field start off stronger than you did.

      The importance of soft skills falls into that umbrella nicely.

    4. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      It’s not something I learned exclusively during writing, but I learned how to communicate with ‘upper management’ (professors) about my status on getting the paper (tasks) done and knowing what issues I was having that I should handle on my own and what would need their attention. And that requires you to be more professional than if you were just communicating with peers. Prioritization and setting deadlines for myself, because you just get told to bring them a finished product, it’s on your own to schedule how that gets done. Understanding that just because it makes sense to you doesn’t mean it makes sense to your reader. Taking the time to do your research before submitting somethin (some people in my office don’t bother to do the leg work and are like ‘oh Bob (who is known to be wrong) said to just do ‘x’).

      But I like your approach to focus on the soft skills. I do think a lot of what I learned in school that is applicable to my work life is in the more ‘soft skill world’. The technical stuff is what you can learn on the job, but the soft skills are what you need to show up with.

    5. wine-dark sea*

      What about self-pacing and sticking to self-imposed deadlines? For my undergrad (and grad) thesis, there was a hard deadline for the entire project, but there really wasn’t anyone holding my hand to make sure I was making progress throughout the year.

    6. Blue River*

      Thanks everyone! I have around one month to prepare, fingers crossed I can come up with good stuff.

    7. linger*

      Going into the specifics of “soft skills” in rather more detail:
      Supervisors and students may start that relationship with very different expectations of each other’s duties and functions. As a general rule, most thesis students start by assuming they will be able to get a lot of support from their supervisors, sometimes in quite an unrealistically large range of areas. By contrast, supervisors tend to assume that most thesis students (especially at PhD level) will be able to work largely independently, or be able to find assistance from other sources. In most cases, these assumptions need to be explicitly questioned, and realistic expectations negotiated, for the individuals involved.

      Many students conceive of the ideal supervisor as someone who should:
      * have good communication skills;
      * have good people skills;
      * be supportive and positive;
      * understand the student’s cultural and educational background;
      * use student’s areas of interest;
      * keep students motivated;
      * be available/ contactable at regular, predictable times
      * have both broad and expert knowledge of the field of study, and of research methods within that field
      * suggest reference material/ sources
      * give guidance on research ethics
      * guide students through institutional procedures
      * provide constructive feedback on research process and content of writing, as quickly as possible
      * guide the writing process (if required)
      * correct language of student drafts (if required).

      By contrast, the ideal student (from a supervisor’s perspective) should:
      * have good communication skills
      * be self-motivated, keep self going
      * be able to organise own work (set and follow schedules)
      * arrange meetings in advance, and then turn up on time
      * be prepared and focussed (set specific goals for each meeting)
      * read regularly
      * be able to search for reference material
      * know how to cite and properly attribute sources (no plagiarism!)
      * write regularly
      * organize their own writing (with clear statements about the content and function of each section of writing within the whole project)

      So:
      The supervisor-student relationship needs to be carefully and explicitly negotiated, with clear communication about what each person expects of the other, especially about:
      – likely contact times;
      – meeting schedule (length and frequency of meetings);
      – agenda for next few meetings;
      – type of feedback expected on drafts at different stages;
      – deadlines for feedback.
      Ideally, the student should take responsibility for this relationship: setting their own immediate and long-term goals, and guiding the supervisor in what kind of guidance to give.
      In particular, the student should allow the supervisor enough time to help. Ask for help. Don’t leave problems until the last minute!

  18. Grant*writer**

    I have a new job writing grants, something I’ve done in the past when I also did programmatic work but now am doing fulltime. I’m running into what I assume are pretty common issues in the field and wondered if others have experienced them: 1. My manager tends to bring me the grants they want me to write, and a good chunk of them don’t seem to be a good fit to me based on our staffing and/or the grantmaker’s priorities. I see how it happens, they read the RFP optimistically and if they sort of meet one criteria they think “maybe!!!” when I see that we are out of touch with all five of the other criteria. I try to point this out diplomatically, but if they still want to do it, it’s my job to write it, not argue. Is this common? Am I approaching it the right way? I feel like it hurts me that we don’t get more grants, but I also made my case and was overruled. 2. Because of this staffing issue I mentioned, I think they sometimes forget that I’m the grant writer but I’m not going to like, do any of the work (other than reporting) on the grant. It seems like expect me to be overseeing the work of the grants we do get in a way that I feel they would have to pay me more for. They invite me to coordinating meetings etc etc or expect me to show up and work at the events that were part of the scope of work. Is there a kind way to draw the line and explain they need programmatic staff to take over running grants once we get them?

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Hmmm, it sounds like there’s some fundamental confusion over your role and you need to sit down with your manager and go over exactly what your responsibilities are, as different nonprofits approach these things differently. In my last nonprofit job, it was indeed expected that the same person would take responsibility for writing, implementing, and reporting on a grant. That was just how we divided up work and it made sense for us because the grants were too specialized to easily be written/reported on by someone else. If your title is ‘grant writer’ I agree that doesn’t sound like it should include programs responsibilities, but you need to clarify that with your boss.

    2. croissant*

      #1 — I’m not sure how common this is, but it sounds really annoying. Maybe this is a case where your manager will have to learn the hard way after all of your proposals are rejected. It is a huge waste of everyone’s time (both yours and the funders) to apply for grants that are a poor fit.

      #2 — It really depends on the organization. The bigger the org, the more specialized roles tend to be. I’m at a small org and therefore am expected not only to write grants and reports, but also handle correspondence with funders, arrange meetings, and yes, occasionally coordinate events/site visits/etc. If you’re at a bigger org, maybe it’s reasonable to expect them to bring on another person to handle some of these tasks, but it’s not unusual or unreasonable for them to be part of a role like yours, I think.

    3. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      Do you have an accurate and clearly written job description for your position? Can you point to that and say “hey, that’s not part of my actual job”?

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      #1: I think this is a matter of discussing with your supervisor what they want from you. Do they want you to apply to any grant they suggest or do they want you to push back when you have concerns about the viability of getting the grant? Part of the role of the Grant Writer at most places I have worked is to help select which Grants seem most likely, because time and capacity are both limited.

      #2: Well, I think this depends. I’ve worked at places where all staff, regardless of title, were expected to show up at events or assist. It was just assumed that if you worked there, you helped with the programs and oversaw work on them, because everyone sort of did. The person who wrote the grant was often the best qualified to make sure the project fit the requirements and was often needed to help oversee the project. This was not a separate role, but rather part of the “grants person” role.

      I tend to agree with Alexis Rosay that there seems to be some confusion about your role between you and your boss. The only way to solve that confusion is to ask. What exactly are they expecting of you? And then decide if you want the job knowing those are the expectations.

  19. JustA___*

    I’m trying to pivot into museum work (art history ba) with an emphasis on guest education/engagement.

    As part of this, I’m planning to do grad school, at, hopefully, somewhere that has good connections with museums. Just wondering if the commentariat has any suggestions? Specific grad programs I should look at? I’m in the US, and would want to stay stateside.

    1. JustA___*

      To clarify, like an emphasis on practical museum work/internship/networking opportunities—preferably at more than a small on campus gallery.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      A distant relation of mine went to University of The Arts in Philadelphia and did different internships with museums in the area (and there are a lot). Her degree was in something like museum communications, but not sure what else is available with them.

    3. officeolivia*

      Former museum person here – I did my BA & MA in art history at Yale and worked in museums (exhibitions dev) for a while. Now I’m at a fine arts services company.

      This is kind of an anti-recommendation but I’d suggest you do a MA in museum studies, NOT art history. Maybe that was your plan anyway, but just in case you were looking at art history, I’d dissuade you from it since you’re not interested in curating. My MA in art history was so academically rigorous that my advisor got upset with me for working a part time student job with university collections. Talk about disheartening, when I had been transparent in my application and interviews that I wanted to work in museums. Most (possibly all?) museum studies programs are pretty strongly focused on the practical component, so you’ll be better served in getting actual experience.

      If there are particular institutions you’re interested in working with, go to a school with proximity to them! If you just want to network as much as possible, somewhere in NYC or DC is an obvious choice, and there’s a reason that their museum studies programs are so well known. (NYU, GWU respectively come to mind.)

      Join the professional orgs (ARCS, AAM, possibly CAA) while you’re in school, which typically have student rates and discounts to register for their conferences.

      1. JustA___*

        Thanks for the input. I am looking for programs that are more skewed toward museum studies. Also, definitely appreciate the advice about proximity to museums. My list of schools is primarily structured around places I would want to live/museums I would want to work/network with. So… like half NY schools.

        Thanks for the input about art history programs. I’m looking at a few art history programs but will be sure to dig deeper about the attitude the schools have toward non-curatorial museum work!

        1. Elle*

          Non profit management might also work. My time in museum volunteer relations dealt with a lot of funding issues, community engagement, etc.

    4. Fabulous*

      I can’t say specifically which program, but I completed my grad degree in Arts Administration and there were totally courses that were geared toward education and guest engagement. Perhaps there’s an Arts Administration program at a college with lots of museums around it – that would likely be your best bet. The city where I completed mine has lots of general arts organizations and theatres and that seemed to be the focus of the program due to proximity.

    5. These Are My Formal Jorts*

      The University of Washington has both the Burke Museum and the Henry Art Museum on site, and an awesome MA in Museology program that is rooted in equity, racial justice, and community engagement.
      UNLV has one of the best museums I have been to – The Marjorie Barrick Museum of Art. Surprising, subversive, interactive, and accessible programing that always seems to be pushing the boundaries. The M. Ed. in Multicultural Education would be a slightly non-traditional approach but would pair nicely with a focus in public arts education.
      Portland State has the Jordan Schnitzer Museum of Art at PSU, and the Schnitzer family seems to be doing A LOT for art museums as an institution (there is also a JSMA at Washington State University, which is also well funded!). The MFA in Art and Social Practice at PSU would be an ideal program — it mentions a studio practice in the description weirdly but the curriculum is all non-studio based.
      I hope this helps!!

    6. wingcolor*

      I did the program in museum education at GWU in Washington DC about 10 years ago. There is also a general museum studies program there.

      (Spoiler alert: I am no longer working in museums and think that’s a good thing for both my mental health and finances.)

      Pros: great program with an intensive focus on hands-on experience including internships and placements built in; strong emphasis on networking; even though I’m no longer in museums, I think my experience in the program has definitely impacted how I think about and approach certain work problems.

      Cons: it was very expensive with limited financial assistance other than loans; out of my 15-person cohort, I can think of several (at least 4-5 off-hand) who are no longer working in museums, but I think that’s also a museum thing in general.

      Neither good nor bad, but a mix: Being in DC is a mixed blessing: there are a ton of museums, but my experience after graduating was that the job market was absolutely glutted with people with masters degrees competing for part time jobs that pay relatively low wages. (Note: this is also true of the museum field generally); the program I did had a very specific pedagogical approach that is definitely not for everyone.

      Happy to talk more about my experience if you want—you can find me on social media with the same handle.

      1. JustA___*

        I’m in DC, so I know what the market here is like. I’ve known people who went to GWU a while back, and Georgetown more recently, and I just…wasn’t excited about either program. I appreciate y’all looking out for me, I’m aware the museum job market is tough! My other work is experience is in for-profit art (e.g., gallery work), and at a (not remotely art related) non-profit, so I’m hoping that makes me a bit more competitive.

    7. croissant*

      Museum education departments often hire people with graduate degrees in education, rather than art history/museum studies. I strongly recommend reaching out to people currently working in roles you theoretically want and asking them about their educational background and career path before jumping into a graduate program. Please also be aware that there are many, many people out there with great degrees and experience competing for an increasingly limited number of museum jobs. Even if you figure out the best grad program to pursue, do not go into it without a plan B in mind.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, to all this. I’ve worked closely with museum’s folks in the past and the ones in the education departments were almost always from an education background. All in all, delightful humans, but if there’s a field harder to get into than libraries (and I say this as a long time librarian) than it is museums. Whatever you chose to do, go in with a very robust backup plan.

        1. JustA___*

          Yeah, I know. I’m hoping my work experience (a mix of for-profit art and non-profit non-art) will keep me competitive.

      2. JustA___*

        Good idea! I have a meeting with one of my old professors/mentors this weekend, so I’m hoping she will be able to help me figure out some leads, but I may try to cold contact some people on LinkedIn too.

        1. Cascadia*

          I would also see if there are other professional organizations you can use to network some informational interviews with these people. I personally would not respond to a linkedin message, but if someone emails me directly I will happily talk to them (and that happens not infrequently!) I have a niche job in a highly-sought after field and sometimes people will find me on their and email me to ask to discuss more about my job. I’m always happy to talk to people when I have time. But I get way too many spammers on linked in, and I only check it twice a year, if that. This is all to say – reach out to people, but reach out in various different ways! I know in my field there are a couple of very active facebook groups for our profession and people have reached out to me via that platform as well.

    8. Dr. Vanessa Poseidon*

      Williams College has a master’s program in art history that has long been a top feeder program for the field, both for museum and academic positions. Despite the remote location, all students are guaranteed work-study opportunities to do museum work during both years of the degree, and their alumni network is insanely extensive and well connected, putting you in a good position for summer internships and jobs.

      Definitely go into the field with your eyes open regarding the job market and working conditions…I’m not going to discourage you, as I used to work in the field and don’t regret my degrees or experience, but I also don’t regret leaving the field for other options.

      1. JustA___*

        I was really impressed with what I saw of Williams’ relationship with MASS MoCA, but it’s great to hear their alumni network is on point as well!

        1. sherlock holmes*

          Would also recommend Williams – they have a very close relationship with MASS MoCA (I interned there myself but I didn’t go to Williams) and their museum itself is also incredible.

          The Courtauld Institute in London is roughly the UK equivalent if you also wanted to consider international opportunities (they both have what I’ve heard called “mafias” of alumni in big jobs around the world). They are very academic in MAs/undergrad for history of art, but the curatorial program seems more hands on and practical.

          Would also recommend looking at Tufts – most folks get tuition grants to help cover at least one year of study and there are obviously some amazing museums in Boston that you could get involved with.

          Full transparency that I did my MA in the UK and while it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity at a prestigious university, I also left museum work and now work in the art market. Museum work is still incredibly low paid, unfortunately, and I think it’s worth considering how long you’d like to live with that scenario, especially as it’s likely you’ll need to be in a high cost of living city and everything that entails. Definitely not discouraging you because it can be incredibly rewarding and fulfilling, but it comes with trade offs.

          1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

            On the other hand, there are great art museums in flyover country where living is affordable: think St. Louis, Kansas City, Omaha, and other non-coastal places (Oklahoma and new Mexico, for instance, are chock full of museums). A few years in one of those places could give a person the credentials to move to one of the more prominent cities. And don’t limit yourself to art museums; history museums frequently have large art collections, and all kinds of museums have education programs. If you want JUST art in an educational or programming position as you’re starting, it will really limit your choices.

    9. Teacher Librarian*

      In previous positions, I worked in museums in public service. The people I admired had degrees from Bank Street Graduate School of Education in NYC from the museum education master’s program.

  20. Peachtree*

    Am I at a BEC stage with the person I manage, or am I being reasonable?

    My direct report had a training course this week, which was in two stages: an exam on Wednesday to pass to the second stage and exam on Friday. She has dyslexia and found the course extremely difficult, including sobbing/crying to the administrator of the course that she would fail, she was too stupid, etc.

    The administrator allowed her to change her first exam to Friday (today) and then she will take the second exam in a few months, which was great. However, my report has taken all this week off – without asking me first, although I agreed she could take the time as she was clearly very stressed – and then studied in her own time, so she has now asked to take time off in lieu for her revision! (We don’t have exempt status in the UK but she is salaried so does not get paid overtime).

    I am not sure if this is just me being irritated that she didn’t ask permission for study leave before deciding to take Thursday/Friday for revision (and that she tried to cancel a 121 with me to discuss this, before I said that she needed to meet me first), or whether I am being unreasonable as she clearly was under a lot of personal pressure to succeed. I (several times) spoke to her to say that I as a manager/us as an organisation just wanted her to enjoy the course, have a try at something new and come back refreshed with a better understanding of the topic, and would not mind at all if she failed, but as often happens with low self-esteem, I’m not sure it went through.

    All thoughts welcome …

    1. londonedit*

      I feel for her, but it sounds like she really didn’t need to invest this level of time and effort into the whole thing, so I think asking for time off in lieu because she chose to take annual leave (I presume she took this week as last-minute holiday?) is a bit much. It sounds like you were clear once you realised that she was struggling, and you said it wasn’t hugely important and she didn’t need to worry about failing. I totally get the need to succeed at everything you do, but it sounds like she’s taken something that was supposed to be a bit of enjoyable time away from the office with the bonus of giving her a bit of extra training, and built it up into her head into a huge deal where she absolutely has to pass the exams or she’ll be a massive failure. Unfortunately, as long as you have been clear with her from the start that this wasn’t a giant pass/fail exercise, I’m not sure what else you can do about it – you’ve tried to impress on her the fact that she doesn’t need to worry this much about the whole thing.

      1. Peachtree*

        Hi, thanks for the advice – she didn’t actually take annual leave, she just decided she was going to spend the two days at work revising. When she was doing both courses this week, she was given the week ‘off’ for the training, but in my mind, when she had finished the three-day course … she should have come back to work, instead of making a three-day course into a five-day course. I’m going to check in with my line manager but granting her, basically, an extra day off (6 hours of TOIL) seems unreasonable.

        1. londonedit*

          Hmm, maybe there was a bit of miscommunication? If she was initially told she had ‘the week off’ for the course, she might not have realised you expected her back at work when it transpired that she wouldn’t be doing exams on both Wednesday and Friday (unless you did explicitly tell her, of course!) She might have thought she could use the extra days to revise for Friday’s exam seeing as she was already designated as ‘off work for a training course’. Still, it does sound like it was her decision to use the time to revise, and if you told her she didn’t need to do that then asking for TOIL does seem a bit much to me.

          1. Peachtree*

            Thanks for your comment, I can see the miscommunication more clearly now (the benefit of posting in this forum!). The extra days were approved after the fact – she told me she would be studying on Thursday and refused (initially) to call me when I asked to catch up. Recognising that she was extremely stressed I said she could take the two days as study leave – but ideally she would have asked first. That’s the part where I’m wondering “am I being petty?” – I think I need to set more explicit guidance going forward, and perhaps not assume that everyone is like me – far too deferential to my manager!

    2. CatCat*

      I’m not in the UK and have no idea what revision and study leave mean, but with those caveats…

      I can definitely see feeling irritated (but BEC stage seems a bit extreme unless there’s something more going on here). What do you need to happen in the future? Focus on that and have a compassionate, but firm communication about it. “I understand that you found the course challenging and that was stressful. I want you to be successful here. But going forward, if you need study leave, you need to clear that with my first. While I will grant study leave whenever appropriate, I also have a responsibility to ensure adequate coverage at work. Going forward, will you request study leave in advance?”

      If she gets worked up, you can give her time to compose herself, and then resume the conversation.

      1. londonedit*

        Revision is what you do before an exam – studying, I suppose you’d call it in the US, but we tend to use ‘studying’ to refer to something you’re still learning about. If you’re doing a course with an exam at the end, then you need to revise before the exam to remind yourself of all the topics that were covered. Study leave is time off to revise for exams – in the UK school ends with a set of exams at 16 and another set at 18 if you choose to go on to do them, and kids go on ‘study leave’ at this time of year so they have a month or so to revise for their exams. So the same might apply if you do a work training course with a final exam – you might be allowed a couple of days off work (not as part of annual leave) to revise for the exam (it’s not a policy/thing that’s occurred anywhere I’ve worked, but I know people in jobs with official certifications have had similar things).

        1. Picard*

          In the US, revise means to redo something as in correct/edit your work. The term we use for exam prep is usually REVIEW.

      2. Person from the Resume*

        I have similar confusion. Does this training have anything to do with work and is it on work time or on her personal time?

        If she had a training course this week, wasn’t she in training this week? How could she also be off work?

        “so she has now asked to take time off in lieu for her revision!” – Is she asking to change to time she took off already to something else?

        If you mean she had two exams this week and then her meltdown got that changed to one exam on Friday, and then she just took off all week without asking your first and is now asking to take a different sort of leave … then it seems like she’s making this extremely dramatic and confusing and requiring changing already submitted and approved time off requests when with advance planning this could have been fairly simple. So your frustration is justified.

        And if this is related to classes and exams not related to work, this should not be your problem at all. Outside work stuff she should just ask for what she needs in advance and not involve you in the nitty gritty details.

        1. Peachtree*

          Yes you have got it right – it is a work sponsored course, which got changed from a five day, two exam course, to a three day, one exam course. But she took off five days anyway, and after studying in her own time (in addition to the two extra days) she is now asking for the evening time back. My view is that we essentially gave her five days to complete a three day course, and her evening study was voluntary (as I said I wanted her to finish work on time) but also want to be generous due to her dyslexia.

          1. Hiring Mgr*

            I think your last sentence about being generous is where you should land.. It sounds like this person was extremely stressed about this whole thing (plus the dyslexia, etc..). and if they’re normally a good enough employee who really cares if they took a couple of extra days

            It sounds more like the issue is they took the time off without asking first, which in some companies wouldn’t be a huge deal. If that’s not typically the way it’s done at your employer though, just let them know next time talk to you first.

          2. Person from the Resume*

            So I come back to she’s making this extremely dramatic and confusing. I don’t think I’d agree to give her time off in lieu of the time she spent studying/revising in her evenings. I mean, I think she had all day Thursday and however long on Friday before her exam to study.

            I don’t think you’re unreasonable, but try not to let the BEC feelings be seen. And be very clear about how to use work time time off for studying/revising for exam 2 “in a few months.”

          3. Teapot Wrangler*

            I hadn’t originally twigged that it was the evening studying at issue. She definitely shouldn’t get TOIL for that when she already got the Thursday for revision as an extra! She sounds like hard work…and I’m not sure I’ve ever said no to a manager’s catch up (pushed back or checked needed to be now or could wait but not just flat out didn’t attend)

    3. anonymous73*

      If she needs accommodations for her learning disability, she should ask for them and you should help her get them. It sounds like she did a lot of assuming and overreacting, you’re irritated because of it, and the 2 of you just need to sit down and talk about the situation. I think you need to set clear expectations with consequences, and make sure understands them.

    4. Sylvan*

      You’re not being unreasonable. I don’t think you can fix your employee’s personal problems, though — you’re not a therapist. You can set reasonable expectations and be clear about how she can meet them.

    5. theletter*

      The current issue at hand may be a wash. You might have to tell her good luck on the test but she can’t take any more time off for further studying. Can she pull out of the course at this point?

      I think part of the issue here is cognitive dissonence: you’ve told her or approved the training, the training emphasizes passing the exam, so of course, she must pass the exam. Even though you’ve told her the passing grade is not required, it’s easier for her to dismiss your input than to disregard the overwhelming evidence that she must pass this exam.

      For the future, if training is needed/recommended/encouraged, the outcomes should be clear, and the training should be chosen to meet those outcomes.

      Training in necessary things like compliance should result in a passing exam, so any course recommended should included an exam that the student is required to pass.

      Training in stuff that is recommended (like, IDK, project management) should only have exams for the student’s personal assesment or notes, unless they’re going for an optional certification.

      Training in stuff that is merely encouraged or more for infotainment/inspiration shouldn’t have exams attached.

      Technical training is its own beast – there’s a lot training available that offers certifications or licenses, and many of those programs are challenging because the institutions running them are trying to establish a reputation. But then there’s a lot of training that exists merely to share FYI information – it’s geared toward learners who just need to figure out how to do XYZ with the ABC thing. The programs can be entertaining and informative, and sometimes the ‘Barbara from Acme who just wants to demonstration ABC for beginners on Youtube because she likes it that much,’ can be more useful that any institutional certification.

      One thing she will have to learn to do for herself is the ability to pick and choose the training she needs at the moment. There are some jobs where a micro-certification is required for a promotion, but there’s lots of times where a few hours perusing the documentation is the best way to achive a positive outcome.

    6. PX*

      Oof. I dont know if BEC status is quite right, but I can understand how you’re getting very frustrated. To me, a lot of this is giving me miscommunication (you assumed she would know what you were expecting after the 3 days?) and low-self esteem/immaturity (this feels a lot like someone newish to the workplace who is panicking about things they dont need to panic about) vibes.

      I feel like very clear, gentle, but direct feedback is going to be required. Especially for things which you think should be obvious. And probably some thinking/advice/discussion with her on how to better manage any future courses with her dyslexia (especially if they are a requirement for progression).

    7. Kes*

      I think it’s a bit of both. I think it’s fair to make it clear to her that she needs to clear things with you in advance. That said, I think if this is an exam you want her to write, and you know she has disabilities that cause her to struggle with it, granting her extra study time seems pretty reasonable as an accommodation. “Oh it’s fine, just fail the exam” is not really likely to make your employee feel better or supported. I would grant the time but make it clear she needs to actually talk to you and request permission (beforehand, not afterwards) for these kind of things in future

    8. Sandy*

      I’m also in the UK and I’ve done a couple of courses that use this structure (project management qualifications) and they can be ridiculously intense, so I do have some sympathy for your employee that she was feeling overwhelmed. (I’m also dyslexic, and certain training providers are not dyslexia-competent) She handled talking to you about that poorly.

      If I understand you correctly, you’d originally scheduled for her to be in training all that week but when you found your that she’d changed the exam day, you were expecting her to work Thursday and Friday, rather than remain focused on the training. That makes sense – but might also have been a bit unrealistic (perfectly reasonable, but perhaps not wholly realistic) on your part. Mostly because Wednesday is still spent covering course materials prior to the exam in the afternoon, she’d have needed to spend Friday focused on preparing for and taking the exam anyway, and if she’s this stressed and overwhelmed by the course, the likelihood of her being especially useful on Thursday was probably limited.

      I’d guess that she assumed (bad idea!) that since she’d been scheduled for training all this week anyway, it would be ok if she kept to that schedule and remained focused on her training. Except of course, you agreed to this schedule when it was a 2-exam week, not a 1-exam and extra revision time.

      I think you’re fine to be feeling a bit frustrated about the communication (and stress) meltdown, but I’d suggest the best way forward would be to have a gentle 1-to-1 and reiterate that you need her to keep you in the loop about stuff like this so that you can know what’s happening and maybe help. This past week is a wash – focus on what needs to happen in the future. I also don’t think you should try and get her Thursday classed as TOIL. She wasn’t working on what you wanted her to be working on, but she was working (on work-related training).

      FWIW, if this is the kind of course I’ve done (the exam on Wednesday gives you a foundation qualification and the one on Friday gives you a practitioner qualification in whatever the course is focused on), she’s really going to struggle to do the practitioner exam separately, even if the foundation course was a cakewalk for her. The courses are really structured to build immediately on each other, so doing the practitioner several months later is actually far harder than doing it immediately. Depending on your training budget, willingness and capacity (also her interest and whether she actually took/passed the foundation exam) it might be better for her to start from the beginning rather than set her up for extra failure. She can get extra exam time without any difficulty, and has at least already seen the materials.

  21. Cruciatus*

    Has anyone ever had a job like a career advisor trainee? I realize no one can speak for all career advisor trainee programs but if anyone has ever done it–did you like it? Did you feel like you were making a difference? Was it burn out central?

    A job opening has come up through my state and it sounds interesting, though the application is really tedious and you get a score based on your answers, which I get, but I feel like because I haven’t done some things 100% of the time that it will lower my score too much to even get looked at, though I do have some experience in X or Y.

    I love my academic non-librarian library staff job but I’m not learning anything new and my salary has only gone up like maybe $1500-$2000 since I started here 5 years ago. I have the luxury of not running away from this job, but whatever my next job is I want to be as informed about it as possible!

    1. Cruciatus*

      Bummer! I really thought a community this wide would have had someone in a position like this. I’ll still keep checking back if anyone is able to share their thoughts on this job!

    2. CareerAdvisor*

      I am in a career advising program (or career development practitioner) but I’m not sure what “career advising trainee” means? Maybe you can expand on what the job is to make sure you’re getting the richer advice?

  22. Junior Dev*

    There’s a new subreddit called r/abovethetreetops for roleplaying being at a corporation. It’s very funny

    1. Roy G. Biv*

      I would especially enjoy hearing the perspective from role players who have never worked in a corporation. Would their perspectives be weirder/worse than what we see here on AAM, or would there be some intuitive truth telling, a la the emperor has no clothes? Now I’m going to have check out that subreddit.

  23. Renee Remains the Same*

    I applied for a job recently. It’s in the town I want to move to. It’s a bit of a career shift. I know folks who know folks there. I know none of this guarantees anything.

    Still, while I think I could enjoy the job – I can’t help but feel anxious about the whole moving and career shift aspect of it. The moving thing especially. I would have to pack up my life, sell my place, and move … on a very specific timeline if I were to get the job.

    Change makes me anxious. Short notice makes me anxious. No preparation makes me anxious. Since I can’t change the first two – I’m wondering if anyone has any advice or resources about how to navigate moving and job change? Since this is something I’m actively working towards, I might as well try to get some of my ducks in a row when I can to ease the anxiety of whatever comes next.

    1. anonymous73*

      If you’re working towards moving and changing jobs, pretend you have a date and start going through the motions of moving. Start researching for services you may need/cost of living in the area/the difficulty of finding a new place to live/etc., start weeding through stuff and getting rid of things you no longer want/need/use. Start packing things that can stay in a box for a while. That way when you do have a new job and an actual date, you’ll be a few steps ahead.

      1. Whynot*

        Seconding anonymous73’s advice. Moving is always hectic, so weeding out stuff, pre-packing things you can, researching moving services, etc, would really help. Research moving companies, rental possibilities in the new town, etc.

        In terms of housing, make a list of “need to have, nice to have, don’t need” that you can share with a realtor/rental agency. It might include things like: need at least 1 bedroom, safe neighborhood, close to public transit; nice to have off-street parking, walkable to stores/restaurants, home office space, don’t need to worry about school districts if you’re childless, etc. It helps you figure out your priorities and helps the agent focus their search on your behalf.

    2. Mojo021*

      I just relocated from Rhode Island to Florida 3 weeks ago. Whatever you do, if you’re going to use a moving company, make sure you do your research and don’t use a broker but an actual moving company. My original quote was $1800, I ended up paying $4000 and my brand new in the box window air conditioner is now missing…… I was lucky that I had a place to live temporarily, but definitely start checking the options in the area you are looking to move to, rent is crazy high in my area so I will be staying with family longer than anticipated. Good Luck!

    3. Savvy*

      Are you excited about the new town, or the job? I couldn’t really gauge any excitement from your post. Or is this job an important stepping stone to somewhere that would make you excited? If you aren’t looking forward to either the job or the location in a strong way, then honestly I wouldn’t consider moving.

    4. Slightly Above Average Bear*

      I’m glad you asked because I’m in a similar spot. I like to have a plan, and multiple back up plans, and everything is out of my hands right now. It feels overwhelming, but people do it every day.
      I like the ideas for concrete steps that can be taken now. Honestly, I need to clean out my basement no matter when the move takes place.
      Best wishes, OP!

    5. VegetarianRaccoon*

      Deliberately visualize some best-case scenarios. Fantasize a little about what your new life could look like. Basically trick yourself into associating a potential move with positive feelings. Won’t solve everything, but it’s one tool in your toolkit.

  24. Winona Hatshepsut*

    Hello! I am looking for perspectives on job hopping.

    After a fairly steady job history (of staying more than 5 years at two jobs and 3 years at another), COVID has thrown me for a loop. After being laid off, I found a job in 2020. I didn’t love it but it was good money and benefits. Then my boss got let go once I had been there just shy of a year, and my new boss set out to rebuild the team in his own vision. So, I left in 2021 for a new job since the writing on the wall was clear.

    Now, just shy of a year at my new job, we had a huge layoff and I’m doing the work of 3+ people with no end in sight. I don’t dislike the job (though a lot of it is tedious and mostly I am overwhelmed just by the sheer volume of it) and am again considering a move. I’ve told my boss (and above in skip levels) about issues with my workload, but there’s just a certain amount of work to be done and too few people to do it. More help would be months away depending on budget.

    My worry is that’s two short stints and back-to back. I’m concerned that I look flighty. And I’m concerned about the rocky economy. Should I try to stick it out?

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      I feel like “because COVID happened” is a magic wand you can wave when explaining this if someone asks. I think this is fine.

    2. anonymous73*

      Nah you won’t look flighty, especially since the short stints were within the pandemic time frame. Even if we hadn’t been in a pandemic, I still don’t think it looks flighty because you have history of staying in jobs prior to that. The only resume I rejected recently for job hopping was someone who had about 20 different roles in 15 years. There was only 1 that he had stayed in for more than a year.

    3. OTGW*

      Is that 2 jobs in two years? I think you’re fine, especially since it’s still a year. The pandemic is a pretty good explanation, and if a company won’t accept it, you don’t want to work there anyways.

    4. Catalyst*

      Nothing to add, but I am in a similar boat and am wondering the same thing if I leave the position I’m in right now. It’s so hard to decide what the best thing is to do in this situation, especially if you’ve never experienced it before.

    5. Kes*

      Yeah I think it’s okay, you have a history with more stability, and you can explain the recent changes (covid layoff, found a new position but ultimately not a good fit). I would look but just try and be a bit more deliberate in finding a good place you can stay at for a while

  25. Mental Health Question Anon*

    I’m not sure how to ask this but I am already working on the other parts as hard as I can and I feel like I don’t know what to do about the work aspect.

    My health is bad. Mentally and physically. I lost my job last year because I couldn’t work, I was so tired. Since then I’ve gone through an outpatient group therapy program, I’ve had a sleep study which diagnosed me with sleep apnea which I am still in the process of getting equipment to treat, I’ve been on a bunch of different meds trying to find one that would help. I’ve been doing a lot to improve my health on my own, including running and hiking several times a week, eating better, improving my sleep habits, etc.

    I think everything is going to be a stopgap until I can get the sleep issues dealt with, and that could be another 1 to 4 months given what I know about the timeline of how this treatment (dental appliance) works — both in terms of dealing with the healthcare system to get it made and to do adjustments to it once I have it.

    Anyway, I found that taking a certain prescription medication gave me enough energy to function and actually do something other than lie on the couch and cry all day, but it comes with an increased risk of anxiety. I hadn’t felt that as a real problem until last week, when I began a new job. I have been so anxious that I am having trouble getting essential duties of the job done because I’m so scared to mess them up. Which ironically is causing a lot more problems with people around me because I’m not getting stuff done. I also sent an email today asking for help with things which in retrospect they might not be able to provide or consider reasonable to provide. I think it is a situation where I am so anxious that I cannot make rational assessments of my own abilities or communicate with others in a way that makes sense to them. I really feel out of touch with reality. I am trying very hard to fix things but I worry that the damage to my work relationships have been done.

    It’s a nonprofit that took a super long time to hire me, and I have a history volunteering with them, which means I have a lot of other skills that they’d be hard pressed to find elsewhere. So I am slightly less worried about getting fired than I would be otherwise. But I feel terrible for starting off on this note. I still am waiting to hear back on whether they are able to provide me with the support I asked for in getting things done.

    I am considering asking to take a medical leave of absence for a couple weeks while I can get my meds adjusted (I’m waiting to hear back from my doctor but I get the impression she would support me stopping the anxiety-causing medication). I know normally this would be too early to do that, but the other employee who was supposed to start at the same time as me (and whose presence would make the tasks that stress me out so much a lot easier) has been on medical leave and it’s unclear when he’ll be coming back–I think he is having surgery but I’m not sure.

    I don’t know if this is wise to ask about but I’m wondering if it might prevent me from having any other situations where my view of reality is so distorted compared to others’ that I possibly damage my standing at the organization irreparably. On the other hand, this could well be the anxiety talking in and of itself. I know my impulse when I am in a bad place like this is to be convinced I’m toxic, everyone around me is sick of dealing with me, and the best thing to do is leave them alone and not burden them with my presence. I know that the work I’m doing is really important to the organization and not doing it would cause problems. But I also can’t shake the feeling that continuing to work in this state would really screw things up and make everyone hate me.

    It is an organization where I think people would be more inclined than average to take mental health concerns seriously, but I don’t know how to bring it up without oversharing and making other people feel like they have to interact with me in a way that would be more appropriate for a close friend or a therapist. I don’t want emotional support from my colleagues — I want to try and solve the practical problem that right now, I am not well in a way that makes it really hard to judge my own capacity to do the work and to communicate about what I need in a way that’s appropriate or makes sense.

    It’s extremely scary to be out of touch with reality but in a way that you’re aware that you are, and aren’t sure what is real in a given situation. (I’m not experiencing hallucinations or psychosis, but I am having massively distorted views of how risky certain things would be or how bad the consequences would be if I made a mistake, and my default view of others is that they’re sick of dealing with me, which tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy in my experience.) I don’t know if anyone will have any useful advice, but I’m feeling really scared that I’ll lose this job or permanently get myself branded as difficult and unreasonable over this. It is just really hard to know what the right thing to do is here.

    And if I do what I suspect is the right thing — which is not ask for medical leave, and do my best to complete my duties whether I can get support or not–I would love some advice for how to take it one day at a time, stop panicking, and communicate appropriately with others if they ask about any of the difficulties I’m having getting work done.

    1. Ope!*

      I don’t have direct experience with this, but I do have a loved one who didn’t ask for this kind of leave when they needed it, and they ended up hospitalized. I think it would be very appropriate to ask for a meeting with your boss, and explain that you are in the process of addressing an ongoing health issue and need some short-term medical leave. Yes, it’s probably anxiety inducing to ask about because it feels like you should be giving them more notice- but its the nature of medical leave that it happens on short notice. Get the conversation started at least. Write down the key points of what you need to say: I’m addressing a health issue, I need medical leave for X days, what paperwork do I need, etc. and look at the paper as you talk to help you resist anxiety dumping on your boss, which might make you more anxious afterwards to know you’ve spilled all of that out there.

      Wishing you the best and a smooth healing process!

      1. Mental health question anon*

        Thanks for the advice. I am gonna try my best to talk to my therapist and psychiatrist about it this weekend.

        I’m really scared. I feel like I’ve asked for so much already and I feel terribly unreasonable asking for more. But I guess it would be worse to force myself to work when I’m not capable of it.

        I feel so scared that I’m never gonna be able to work and supporting myself will mean powering through times like this on sheer willpower. I know that’s not right but I have no idea when things will improve for me.

        1. RagingADHD*

          OP, when you get the apnea treated properly, it is life-changing. Your brain is being starved of oxygen on a nightly basis, and when that gets fixed the difference is astonishing.

          I mean, logically it shouldn’t be astonishing because it’s common sense, but having been inside the before and after, it is nearly unbelievable.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Hi anon. The parts about being toxic and making everyone hate you areindeed anxiety-brain. Nothing horrifically bad will happen if you take this leave. But I think it will probably be better in the long run if you do take the leave. If you get the meds adjusted and come back in a better, healthier state, this early 2-week leave will soon be a blip in the rear view mirror.

      1. Mental health question anon*

        I hope so but I’m really scared that whatever meds I pick to replace them will be just as bad

    3. Catcher in the Rye*

      That sounds incredibly difficult and I’m sorry to hear you’re going through that. I want to challenge the idea that not asking for medical leave is the “right” thing- it very well could be beneficial for you to have some time and space while you’re adjusting medications that impact your mindset. I understand the painful experience of our perceptions and professionalism being impacted by mental illness and I can only offer empathy and the (much easier to say than actually believe) advice that no one is thinking more critically about you than you are yourself. Unless you’re getting literal warnings about losing your job, it’s unlikely that you’re actually in danger of doing so. Take care, be kind to yourself, and know you’re not alone.

    4. AlexandrinaVictoria*

      I recently started a new job, 2 days late, because I’d been in the hospital. I went back to work after two days because I wanted to show my dedication and be a good little soldier. It was way, WAY too soon, and it turned into a disaster. My mind wasn’t clear, I was making major mistakes, and my boss decided I was a moron who had lied at my interview. I pushed and pushed myself, and was pushed and pushed by my sup, until I ended up in the hospital again. I’m now looking for a new job. I haven’t been fired, but am on a massive, butt-smacking PIP. TELL THEM what you’re going through. You don’t have to get specific, just that you are dealing with some health problems that might effect your work. Work with them to come up with a plan that will let you succeed. Any rational boss would understand.

    5. Savvy*

      Hello Anon, are you in the US? And does your employer have 15 or more employees? If so then they must comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act, which means if an employee has a disability (including mental health conditions) than they are obligated to provide a reasonable accommodation that would allow the employee to successfully do their essential functions, as long as the accommodation did not present an undue hardship to the organization (which is actually a pretty high threshold to meet). My advice would be to go to your HR person, or whoever is the ADA coordinator for employees in your job, or if you’re unsure just go to your direct supervisor. Explain that you are having difficulties completing certain job functions due to a medical condition. They may need to ask clarifying questions or have your doctor fill out a form detailing how your condition limits your ability to perform certain functions, and perhaps the doctor may have suggestions on potential accommodations. They should work with you in an “interactive process” to find an accommodation that will allow you to complete the essential functions of your job. The only people that have a business need to know about your condition/accommodation needs are HR and the supervisor(s) you report to – you do not need share this information with coworkers if you don’t want to.

      If at all possible, try to explore accommodations that would keep you working, rather than jumping straight to medical leave (although leave can be considered a reasonable accommodation). Are there certain parts of the job that you have the most trouble with? And what tools/assistance do you think would help you overcome these barriers? Perhaps one idea might be weekly check ins with your supervisor to provide objective feedback on your performance (to alleviate your concerns about how you’re doing at work). To get ideas on the kinds of accommodations that may help with anxiety, visit the website askjan.org/disabilities/Anxiety-Disorder.cfm and scroll down toward the bottom, where they have suggested accommodations listed by limitation and work-related function.

      2. Anonymous, colleagues who read here will recognize it*

        This. And even if they’re not big enough to be subject to ADA, they may be the kind of place that does the ADA stuff anyway. You will not know if you don’t ask.

        Very sympathetic. My husband is getting meds adjusted (again) to address incapacitating panic, anxiety, depression. I went on a short vacay and came back on a Sunday nite to have to tell him, I can’t make you do it, but I strongly urge you to go on medical leave immediately, don’t go to work tomorrow. It’s the only thing that will help him get better.

        1. Mental health question anon*

          Thank you

          I ended up telling my colleague I am planning to take leave, and have a call scheduled with our boss to tell him the same. I’m reaching out to my doctor and therapist to get their advice on how to go about it.

          I wouldn’t have come to this decision without the comments of people here so really, thank you everyone who said something

        2. Minimal Pear*

          A lot of states have laws that cover a lot of the same territory and apply to companies that otherwise wouldn’t have to follow the ADA, so that’s another point in favor of explicitly making it a disability thing.

    6. RagingADHD*

      I don’t have much advice, but as an apnea sufferer, I comisserate because it is THE WORST and it totally does your head in. The meds may get you by temporarily, but when you start to get actual sleep your brain will start to heal and you will feel so, so, so much better.

      I think it would be good to talk to your team about the fact that you have a sleep disorder and that it’s affecting you in unpredictable ways, or ways you can’t fully account for. It’s kind of like having a brain injury.

      I am a bit surprised that your doctors are approaching this primarily as a MH issue, instead of doing everything possible to get you breathing and sleeping better (like a temporary CPAP until the appliance comes thru). Are they fully aware of this “out of touch with reality” feeling? Because that’s like, major, major and they should have some urgency about it.

      I hope you feel better soon.

      1. Mental Health Question Anon*

        Well I was taking a stimulant for ADHD but I think it was actually just helping me overcome the sleep deprivation. I was diagnosed as a kid and it’s a complicated story as to whether I actually have ADHD or not.

        I’ll mention that to my doc, although it was less of a “I don’t know what’s real in an objective sense” way and more of a “realizing my subjective experience of the world is radically different from others and it’s disturbing” way.

        Unfortunately there’s a huge wait to get any sort of CPAP right now, I guess I can ask if they have temporary ones but no one has mentioned this to me yet.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Yeah, I forgot about the backlog. Sorry.

          If your doc hasn’t mentioned this, about 70% of ADHDers also have a sleep disorder of some kind, while the incidence in the gen. pop. is closer to 30%. Some researchers theorize that ADHD itself may be rooted in the brain not getting the right type/amount of sleep phases, and the symptoms we see are the outward result. Increased anxiety is also linked to sleep-deprivation.

          Does positioning help you at all? If our power is out, I sleep on my face. It reduces the number of episodes I have by helping keep my airway open.

          I hope stuff starts turning around for you soon. It’s just miserable, I know.

    7. Mental Health Question Anon*

      Update:

      I just talked to my boss and told him I am having a medical issue and will probably be out for the next 2 weeks, but will have more info once I talk to my doctor next week. He didn’t ask for any detail and was very matter of fact about it and made it sound like it would work out.

      I talked to my colleague who I have been working more closely with and told her a bit more about how I’ve been feeling (my anxiety has affected her and I wanted her to know it wasn’t reflective of how I usually act at work; we also know each other so it’s less weird than if we were basically strangers.)

      Thank you so much to everyone who encouraged me to take leave. I don’t think I was thinking clearly enough to realize I needed to until you did.

      I’ll try and remember to post an update next weekend.

    8. bunniferous*

      Once you get your cpap machine (or whatever device you use) your life will TOTALLY CHANGE. Like night and day change. Like massive improvement change. Sleep apnea does an entire number on you. My husband has it and the difference between untreated and treated is MASSIVE. That’s all I gotta say.

  26. Book Worm*

    I volunteered for my company’s D&I council this week. I met with the head and had a chat about my background and what-not. I knew that my company has a KPI to have a (low to be honest) percentage of women in leadership positions by a certain year. What I didn’t know, and was told during this meeting, was that the reason for the KPI is because as a company we are losing out on bids because we don’t have enough women in leadership positions. Is it weird that I am completely grossed out by this motivation? I am in a male dominated field so we certainly need more women in leadership, but to find out the reason is not because it is the right thing to do but because we are losing out on money???? It feels gross to me.

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      I feel like motive doesn’t matter, actions do. So what that they’re motivated by self-interest? What gets done gets done. If it ends up with a good outcome, so what that it’s selfish? Better to be selfish and do it, than be unselfish and don’t do it.

      1. bosben*

        That is actually a great point. I stand by my angry answer below but yes, if it’s changing, it’s good.

      2. wittyrepartee*

        Sometimes the selfish reasoning is the way to get the decks on board. Then the good folks can go about working on getting women into management positions.

      3. Hotdog not dog*

        I agree, better to do the right thing for the wrong reason than to simply do the wrong thing. Gotta start somewhere!

    2. bosben*

      You are not wrong to be grossed out. As a women in a male dominated field, I’m grossed out by that. My company recently got acquired and when they posted the new leadership, I spent the afternoon breaking down just how white and male the new leaders were by level (not a great use of time but I was pretty upset about it). How are we supposed to see a future at a company or as a manager encourage my team that they have a future if that’s what our leaders look like? I have brought it up at every opportunity – with HR and new leadership and the survey. It’s 2022 and honestly, I’m sick of having to be the one to “fix” it.

      Also, if one more person says we need to build a pipeline of female talent, I will lose my mind…..

      I have no great answer for you, but you get to be mad. It’s gross. I totally empathize.

      1. Observer*

        Also, if one more person says we need to build a pipeline of female talent, I will lose my mind…..

        Yeah. It’s a separate issue, but it’s ridiculous and lazy. And, for the most part, it’s a way to get out of doing the necessary work.

        But it’s the kind of line that doesn’t work if you need women in leadership in order to get contracts. Because the folks who are giving the contracts are saying “That’s your problem.”

    3. Alexis Rosay*

      Yeah, it is gross, but sadly if it motivates them to give women more opportunities, then it’s better than nothing.

      I was in a meeting recently where a senior manager mentioned the only reason he supported a pipeline program to get women into our profession was because he wanted his daughters to go into STEM fields. It’s not quite as bad as what you’re describing but it’s always a yellow flag for me when someone only realizes that women are people after they have a daughter. It sucks, but having corporate partners for this women’s pipeline program is super important so I’ll take whatever motivates them.

      1. rock and roll saved my shower*

        If that senior manager is at all receptive, I’d talk to him about how there’s not really a pipeline problem. There’s a pipeline. There’s a ton of programs. Girls go into STEM all the time. Focus him on why women leave.

        If you have no women applying to anything at any level, you have a pipeline problem.

        If all your women are interns and entry level and none of your managers/leadership, you don’t have a pipeline problem.

        1. Observer*

          This 100%

          But also, if you have a pipeline problem, you need to look at why women leave. Because those women (and a lot of women who stay!) talk about the reasons for leaving and that influences women to not enter the field in the first place. All of the “pipeline programs” in the world are not going to get significant numbers of women into fields where they have to fight misogyny, give up on having kids at a reasonable age (or at all), etc.

          1. rock and roll saved my shower*

            From the department of “I remember reading a blog post about this ten years ago”, there seemed to be some kind of handoff going on between The One Woman At Google Who Fought With The Techbros On Behalf Of Women Who Worked There, who then burned out and then passed the torch to the next poor soul who was going to fight that fight.

            Since then, “pipeline to WHAT, exactly” is my response. Because, yeah, pipeline to harassment, burn out, exploitation, etc. Girls get into the system and are then eaten by it, lather, rinse, repeat.

            It’s not a pipeline problem.

      2. DarthVelma*

        They don’t realize all women are people. They maybe realize their daughter is a person. But even there I’m not so sure it isn’t “my daughter is an extension of me and I am a person”.

    4. Charlotte+Lucas*

      I think you’re right to be upset by this as a motivation. On the other hand, so much positive change in business over the years has been due to outside forces, not because owners or boards of companies made a conscious decision to behave ethically.

      My family has a strong history in the labor movement. Sometimes change has to be forced on those in power.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      I’m not upset my this motivation at all. How do you think all those men got to leadership positions? I am willing to bet that a lot of them got there because of the old boy’s network. Fergus was was a fraternity brother of a customer, and he got the contract, so he was promoted – that was also about money. I am sure there are some who got there because of their legitimate leadership qualifications, but traditionally one of those qualification has been a y chromosome. You say their KPI for women leaders is low; this shows they have a low opinion of their talent pool when it comes to women and if it weren’t for the fact that it is costing them money, they probably wouldn’t be doing this at all.

      The important point is that they are finally doing something about the lack of diversity. When there are more women on the leadership team, and they are successful, it will usually start a trend where more women are identified as leadership material and more women will see the possibility that they could achieve those roles. (Ditto minorities.) So don’t feel gross about the reason why they are finally doing this. Save your feeling gross for the people who don’t appreciate their female employees and had to be pushed into it!

    6. SoloKid*

      I wouldn’t be grossed out – if anything I always feel like I’m being served a load of BS when I get a “it’s the right thing to do” spiel from corporate. I’m surprised at the honesty to a volunteer D&I council TBH.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Yeah, big corporations rarely, if ever, do stuff purely out of the goodness of their hearts or just because it’s the right thing to do. There is always a profit motive in there somewhere, even if they swear there’s not. If a financial motivation forces them do the right thing, that’s pretty crappy – but it’s better than not doing the right thing at all.

    7. pancakes*

      My take is, feel your feelings about that being gross, but it probably wouldn’t hurt and it may help to gather more context for them. Historically there are so many examples of changes that happened in terms of greater inclusivity not so much because absolutely everyone wanted to move forward but because they had to. School desegregation, for example. It may feel gross, too, to look at how many hold-outs there have been in so many of these examples, and to see how many of the same themes still come up over and over again, but overall, it’s better to move toward doing the right things (or for people to just start doing them) for the wrong reasons than to for everyone to remain in place waiting for the hold-outs to get comfortable.

    8. OtterB*

      There may be people in the organization who have wanted to make things better for D&I but were told they couldn’t spend the time/resources on it because it didn’t contribute to the bottom line. If it now has an impact on the bottom line, maybe that’s removing a barrier to acting, not creating a motivation where there wasn’t one before.

      My main concern would be whether the organization intends to take it seriously and what their measures for success are. Are they going to buckle down to it now, or are they going to paper over the cracks and say “look how much we’ve improved”? Are they going to promote women to management positions in support services of one kind or another and not to the core business functions? (Support services are important, but if that’s the only place with women managers, something is wrong.)

    9. Haha Lala*

      My field has similar issues, with a lot of the municipalities requiring a certain percentage of work to go to women or minority owned businesses.

      Your company might not have the best motives here, but I’d bet the external players here do have better motives– they’re giving their money to companies with women in leadership because they want to see more diversity and equity, and they know they have the power to make change happen. So really, the root cause (likely) has good motives, and you can take a little comfort in that.

    10. Observer*

      You are far better off with leadership that is being honest than leadership that is not being honest. Also, from a practical point of view, this particular situation means that they are FAR more likely to make the investment to get at least this low level of female representation in leadership.

      1. another_scientist*

        +1. OP you get to feel grossed out if you want, but it may just not be the best use of your time. Ultimately, you want a majority of stakeholders on board to contribute to certain actions. Everyone might have a different road of incentives to get there, but as long as they get there, that’s success.
        Philosophically, maybe it can make you feel better that clearly other organizations (whoever decides on those bids) cares about gender diversity enough to set such criteria. Regardless of how many layers of ‘I am bowing to economic incentives imposed by some other entity’ you go down, at some point, you must arrive at someone who is imposing these rules just because. It all comes down to someone committing to making change.

    11. The New Wanderer*

      It’s gross, but if the end result is that there are more women in higher positions, that’s a good goal. Because what happens is that having more women in visible leadership roles normalizes women (plural) being at the table, in the room, making decisions, etc., where before there were only men (or only one woman, the de facto outlier). Then, eventually, it’s not so hard to see a woman having “C-suite potential” because the mold has been broken or recast to allow that perception to occur. And then the motivations won’t only be limited to “company self-interest” or “father realizing daughters = people.”

      The book Invisible Women covers this really well. It made me want to burn everything to the ground and start over, but it’s well worth the read.

    12. RagingADHD*

      Flipping it around, it is very encouraging that the industry is holding each other accountable! That’s how change gets made. The motivation exists because other people & other companies care enough to insist on change.

      Your company is a trailer rather than a leader, and of course that’s not good. But there will always be fewer leaders than followers.

    13. Workerbee*

      It is gross. I also say, have them use that money for the greater good even if the motivation isn’t so good. Once more women get in, more changes can happen – as well as a better, positive motivational shift.

    14. Girasol*

      I’d like to say that it doesn’t matter what the motivation is, as long as it happens. But I would be concerned that the organization may be more interested in making numbers than in promoting diversity. It used to be common to put one token woman at each level and give her some puffed-up responsibility that didn’t need doing, so that the org chart appeared to be diverse but the real work was still all done by men. Where women aren’t valued, a token woman’s efforts are often brushed aside, belittled, undermined, or sabotaged, so that even a very talented woman may be set up to fail. It’s less common now than it used to be but a few companies still do this. It sounds like you’re inclined to trust your gut. That seems like a good idea.

    15. fhqwhgads*

      For me, them doing the right thing for the wrong reason is better than not doing it at all.

    16. IT Manager*

      I love this actually. We keep talking about how DEI is a business imperative and here you are with actual cold hard facts to back it up. I mean, it’s capitalism so it’s hard to get support for *any* cultural issue without a business case.

      For me the question would be – what happens after you meet the KPI? If that’s it, than yeah this is all just window dressing.

      If the loss of business was the initial motivator to a real DEI program where they are actually interested in changing the culture and supporting people who they bring in to meet the KPI, then hooray, it worked!

    17. J*

      I’ve been on the pitch side of a company where eventually I figured out this was the reason we created a bunch of DEI committees. I was annoyed but then I figured no matter the cause, it at least signaled an issue that they had to address. If they didn’t care enough about the staff to do it, at least they cared about looking good in front of clients, right?

      We’d start including our diverse staff on every pitch…just to give the white people the work when we got the job. No one ever audited to check our compliance so they just saw a bunch of names and assumed we staffed as pitched. The exception being the CRM attorney. Then we did reports on total hires and we saw more diverse hiring was happening as a result. That’s a win, right? Oh no, because turnover increased for diverse staff as they realized they were being used, whether to be included on pitches they never got the billables on or to do labor on DEI committees that never had the potential to effect change.

      I’m at a new job with one of those partners now and she’s still recovering from finding out the system was always rigged, no matter how much extra labor she gave them. I hope this isn’t how your org handles it but it’s certainly one possibility.

  27. Red Flags?*

    Are these interview questions read flags? 1) How do you cope with being burnt out? 2) How well do you work with highly negative people? I felt both of these were red flags because ideally one wouldn’t get burnt out in order to have to cope with it, and also I really do not like working with negative, energy sucking people. However, I asked a friend who is also interviewing right now and she said that she has been asked these questions before and they are pretty standard. This was an interview for a mid level career position in a fortune 500 company.

    1. JustA___*

      I was asked how I deal with stress in the interview for my current (not stressful) job. I think it might make me angle to see if I can chat with someone in a similar position if that wasn’t offered.

    2. CrazyPlantLady*

      I think they’re red flags and an indicator that people are burnt out easily on the job and they want people to be able to handle it with grace. Also sounds like you’d be working with some annoying mofos.

    3. rock and roll saved my shower*

      I don’t think the first one is red flag, but I think the second one could be, and the combination of the both of them is at least a yellow flag. If there’s another interview, I’d ask them a lot about their culture and their workload and why the last person left.

    4. Kitty101*

      I would put them somewhere between standard and red flags. Could tip in either direction really, although the wording is not so great.

      Ideally you’d have asked “Can you share more about why you’re asking that?” You could still do that in a later stage interview (either directly ask about that line of questioning, or ask what the team culture, daily hours, crunch times, etc look like). Good luck!

    5. Grant*writer**

      Huh, for me that would seem like a red flag. If they’d asked how you cope with stress or to avoid burnout, that’s a little better, and I might just excuse the first one as clumsy wording. But unless the position is customer-facing I’d expect the company culture to get rid of highly negative people, not put it on me to deal with them, and that seems like a pretty specific thing to ask about. Turn it around on them and ask why they’re asking these questions and how the company supports employees.

    6. OTGW*

      Would it involve work with the public/external clients? The first one seems like it could be a genuine personality type question, but the second sounds like questions I get—working with the public. There’s always people freaking out about a $0.10 fine or how they absolutely did not damage a book blah blah. You need to be able to stay calm for that.

      If there’s no outside communication, then I’d take the 2nd q as a yellow flag. What kind of people are you gonna work with?

    7. anonymous73*

      I think asking how you deal with difficult people is legit. You’re rarely going to get along personally with every single person at your job and handling difficult people can be part of it unless you have the type of job where you work solo most of the time. But the burnt out question would give me pause. Nobody should have to explain how they cope with it, because ideally nobody should feel that way.

      1. Jora Malli*

        I think even the difficult coworker question here is worded in an alarming way. I usually ask something like “tell me about a time you had to work with someone that was difficult for you to get along with, how did you handle it?” Because yes, over the course of your career at least one of your coworkers is going to annoy you and I need to know you’ll stay professional. But specifically asking how you deal with “highly negative” people is ringing alarm bells for me. It feels a lot more specific than the standard question.

      2. Sloanicota*

        “Difficult” seems like a reasonable question but if they specifically said “highly negative” I’d pause at that. I mean, not if you’re in role that specifically deals with frustrated customers, or if you’re like, an undertaker, sure, but that wording makes me think they know either their staff or management has an attitude problem.

    8. Sylvan*

      Yes, those are red flags. Sounds like people are running themselves into the ground and being jerks, or maybe working in public-facing roles and receiving aggression.

    9. irene adler*

      I’ve read that when these questions are asked, it is one of two things:
      (1) these are just questions someone thought sounded like they would be able to draw out the candidate
      (2) there’s some very real issues at the company.

      For (2), can you ask follow-up questions? Things like: Tell me about when someone in this position encounters a highly negative person. How does that usually play out? Or: what steps is management taking to manage employee burnout? Is this something that occurs often? What is the burnout concern in this position?

      The “highly” negative would concern me.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I was asked how I dealt with “passive-aggressive people” in an interview and it was definitely due to real issues at the company. After I answered, the interviewers (hiring mgr and his director-level boss) gave the backstory about that question and how the person in that role would be expected to deal with some known problems. They were clear that the solutions to these problems were in work (part of the motivation to hire this role) but it wasn’t smooth sailing yet.

        So, the question itself was a red-flag because of the real issues, but acknowledging it openly like that made it more of a yellow-flag situation.

        1. irene adler*

          I agree with your assessment. If they can elaborate as to why they ask about stress, negative employees etc. THEN at least there’s justification for asking. And further, kudos for not trying to hide the situation plus working to remedy the situation.

    10. ecnaseener*

      Yellow flags IMO. I don’t know of any industries where nobody ever gets burned out and you never have to deal with crappy people.

    11. Fabulous*

      I would be asking follow up questions. Usually when there’s targeted questions like that it means the last person in the role didn’t handle those specific things well. So I’d be asking, “Does the person in this role get easily burnt out? Why do you think that is? Do you find that there are negative people on your team? Why do you think that is?” And so on.

    12. Lady_Lessa*

      About working with very negative people, I would ask more questions.

      My boss is one of them and right now some of my biggest problems are finding alternate materials and making sure that they work. His standard go to response is “No can do” and mine is the opposite, “Let’s see if I can make it work” Some things I don’t try, think spices in cooking, sometimes even changing brands with the same name fails. Other things I can make work, even if we have a different recipe for each brand, the final product is extremely similar (and since we preweigh and package things as a kit, the customer isn’t likely to pick up on it.

      So close and long term, run, distant and varied you have a better idea about what you can handle

    13. RagingADHD*

      If those were the only 2 types of questions, or if there was special emphasis or depth on them, probably a red flag. If they were just included as part of a more extensive or well-rounded process that also covered lots of other topics, then no.

  28. stelmselms*

    I’m an EA. How can I have a conversation with my boss to them know their direct reports are not submitting needed documents to me on time/or completing their work without throwing them under the bus? Sometimes the things that need to be completed/turned in aren’t timely, but other times they are. My boss tends to complain to me a little bit, but as a whole is pretty non-confrontational that I know of with his direct reports. Where it gets tricky is when I have to gather certain information from everyone for a presentation, etc. and they just don’t get it to me. I feel like I’m stuck in the middle. There are other times they don’t submit the information and it makes my boss look bad. Any suggestions on what I can do besides constant email reminders, conversations, etc.? One of his direct reports also tends to be non-responsive as a whole, so I do copy his EA on most of my communications, but she can be pretty non-responsive as well.

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      CYA by CCing, and if your boss complains to you, reference the fact that you haven’t gotten it. It’s not throwing someone under the bus. It’s factually reporting what’s going on. If it matters to the boss that you get the info, then the boss needs to tell the direct reports that.

    2. MustardPillow*

      Have you directly communicated the importance of the timely response? Also try some appreciation, when its on time “Thanks so much for getting x done, it’s important for y reason”. If something is due and it’s close to the deadline, email the sender and CC their boss saying “hey, noticed x isn’t in yet, I need it by y date for z reason. I’ve cc’d boss in the event you are unavailable and it needs to be reassigned”

    3. anonymous73*

      You just do it. You’re not throwing them under the bus, they’re throwing themselves under it. I have to consolidate a weekly report from 6 different managers. They’re supposed to send it to me by COB on Mondays and it’s due by noon on Tuesdays (but can be sent by 1:30 at the latest). I usually only get 2 of them by COB Monday, a few others trickle in on Tuesday morning, and there’s always 1 manager who I have ask for it every single week, sometimes multiple times a day. If it comes time for me to turn it in, I send the email and state which reports are not included because I’ve done my job. If these people not meeting deadlines is affecting YOUR job, you need to speak up so it doesn’t look like you are the one dropping the ball. And if your boss won’t do anything about it, that’s not on them not you.

    4. Bernice Clifton*

      I would send an email at the time you need their content before it’s late and CC your/their boss.

    5. Purple Cat*

      It’s never “throwing somebody under the bus” to tactfully and professionally point out that things aren’t getting done in a timely manner.
      First – make sure you’ve reiterated directly the timelines you have and then follow up with your boss and ask for suggestions for tips on how to manage them better.

    6. PollyQ*

      You’re not “throwing them under the bus” by accurately reporting that they’re not getting their work in on time. You’re giving your boss the information he needs to do his job of managing them.

    7. RagingADHD*

      As a former EA, if this was a chronic issue, I would set a deadline for receipt that gave me time to process everything, and give everyone a heads up. Then if they didn’t come thru, I would throw them right on under the bus like moon pies at Mardi Gras.

      You are stuck in the middle because you put yourself in the middle. Get. Out. Of. The. Middle.

      It is not your job to cover the direct reports’ butts or manage their relationships with your boss. They are senior to you, and can look out for themselves. Your job is to get the presentation done and make your boss look good.

      Your boss can’t manage these people effectively if you hide the problems.

  29. Looking for Women’s Clothing Recommendations*

    I am looking for recommendations for women’s clothing brands that are business casual but leaning more towards business than casual. MM La Fleur is sort of what I’m looking for, but less expensive. I’m especially interested in unstructured blazers and separates that can be mixed and matched. I would love to just buy a capsule wardrobe somewhere and just be done with it! I apparently forgot how to dress myself over the last two years, and my Old Navy tie-dye sweatshirts are not going to cut it.

      1. AFT*

        Also on Poshmark. Since MMLF did a lot of sales during the pandemic, and now many people are not returning to the same level of formality, there are a ton of NWT and barely used items on the secondary market.

      2. Doctors Whom*

        MMLF also has a used marketplace through their own site where you can buy and sell their items. It’s called SecondAct.

    2. Alice*

      Ann Taylor Loft has a lot of good office clothes with varying degrees of business vs. casual, and the prices are reasonable (plus they have a lot of big sales). Looking at MM La Fleur, their stuff seems similar to pieces from Calvin Klein or Tahari that you can usually get at department stores for fairly good prices (or somewhere like Nordstrom Rack or outlets in general). J.Crew Factory also has good stuff that’s cheaper than the main J.Crew brand, though it tends more toward the casual end of things.

      1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        Loft is my go to, and the clothes tend to hold up pretty well. Their leggings have become my work from home staple because I still feel like it’s not pajamas but they are comfortable. But their dress pants are great too and then have pretty inclusive sizing.

        1. Alice*

          Yeah their sizing is a big positive. I’m a size in that annoying grey area between “normal” and plus sizes so it can be very hard to shop, but Loft stuff is sized consistently enough that I can order their clothes online and almost always be happy with the fit.

      2. Jay*

        Another vote for Loft. When I started doing an #ootd post on IG about a year ago, I realized at least half of my wardrobe comes from Loft. Almost all of it was purchased on sale. It’s decent quality and their style works for me. I have to shorten all the pants which makes me a bit irritated – I’m 5’5″, petite inseam and rise are too short for me, and I don’t wear 4″ heels.

        I also buy from the main Ann Taylor site, which I find to be a bit more formal and structured. I love their blazers. They also have good sales.

        I haven’t shopped Poshmark. I haunt ThredUp. I had bariatric surgery in 2017 and had to buy clothes that I could only wear for a brief period – sometimes only a few weeks. ThredUp is the online equivalent of walking into a discount store with racks and racks of clothing that’s not well-organized. I’ve found some gems including a pair of Banana Republic lined work pants for $20.00. I was actually sad when those got to be too big. Now when I see something I like for full-price, I often pop over to ThredUp and look to see if it’s there. Nabbed an Eileen Fisher raincoat and a Loft dress that way.

        1. Alice*

          I second ThredUp! I actually heard about it from one of Alison’s posts about it here. It can be a bit of a crapshoot and they have a very short return window, but I’ve also gotten some great stuff (and sold a lot of my old stuff back to them for store credit). They have such a huge inventory that you can use super specific search terms and come up with a lot of results. One of my favorite and most frequently worn skirts comes from there.

          1. Minimal Pear*

            I’m addicted to ThredUp, I literally just made a big purchase! It’s terrible for me lol. I highly recommend HEAVILY filtering items to find what you want–I filter sizes and fiber content mostly.

      4. The New Wanderer*

        Banana Republic Factory is a goldmine for business casual too, especially the sales. I’ve had luck at Uniqlo as well.

    3. The cat’s ass*

      Universal Standard might be good for you. They are unstructured but professional and I think they have a capsule collection too. Plus lots of sizes. Good luck !

    4. Kay*

      I’m assuming you have seen MM La Fleur’s resale section? Their prices are drastically lower than full price, and though I haven’t used it I’m guessing the quality is still good if run through the company.

      I was going to second the Ann Taylor Loft sale section as well – some great deals to be had if their stuff fits you.

      1. pancakes*

        Maybe also The Frankie Store, for blouses and pants. The dresses tend to be clingy or have cut-outs.

    6. Nutella Versace*

      The Liz Claiborne collection at JC Penney has some clothing similar to M.M. LaFleure. I have a few pieces from them and they’ve held up really well.

  30. STG*

    Relatively new manager (less than a year) and hitting a bit of a social situation that I’m unsure how to resolve.

    I play on a local adult kickball league and have for a few years now. Not particularly professional or competitive…think adults drinking beers and blowing off steam. I’ve played with largely the same group of folks all seasons. Side note that I rarely drink (maybe 6 beers over a whole year) so I’m never drunk but the league is pretty adult and conversations come up that I would never have with coworkers.

    Had some interviews this week for one of my vacancies and low and behold, one of the members of my kickball team shows up at an interview. I wasn’t aware that he worked in my industry and he wasn’t aware of me either. The kickball team is about 12 people and him and I just haven’t interacted much. I also don’t talk much about my job in general.

    There are still other interviews going on so he may or may not be offered a position as of yet. The current season has about 4 more weeks. My gut is telling me that I’ll have to drop out of the kickball team if I offer him a position. I’m kind of bummed about it since it’s one of the few spots in my life that I can let loose and relax. Part of me wants to finish the season but even that makes me a edgy.

    Thoughts?

    1. Pool Lounger*

      I’m thinking of small towns and small communities within larger places where you naturally do non-work activities with coworkers. I don’t see an issue with two coworkers, or a supervisor and their employee being on the same sports team.

    2. anonymous73*

      Is there another team you can join if this person ends up with the job? I don’t really see a conflict of interest though, but can see how it may look that way when people find out they’re on your kickball team.

      1. STG*

        Yea, there are other teams but I don’t know anyone on most of them. It is an option though. Besides the fact that I won’t be able to relax the same, I’m worried about the optics of spending time with one of my coworkers playing a sport but not the rest of the team. The good ole ‘gold meetings’ if you will.

    3. Ness*

      It sounds like you’re getting a bit ahead of yourself since you don’t even know if this guy will be the top candidate.

      Since there’s only a few weeks left, I would suggest finishing out the season but trying to keep your conversations a little more PG.

      But yeah, if you end up hiring the guy, you probably shouldn’t be on the same team next year, especially if your main motivation to play is to blow off steam. He might end up feeling the same and quit himself, making it a non-issue.

      There’s also the issue of potential awkwardness if you don’t offer him the job, but hopefully that won’t be an issue since you guys aren’t close.

    4. tamarak & fireweed*

      I know this community is usually quite negative on friendship-type situations involving work colleagues at different hierarchy levels, but I’m in a small college town, and it’s simply not realistic to expect this level of separation. Sure, it would make things easier, and of course there can potentially be dicey situations. But where I am there is only one running club, one cycling club, one symphony orchestra, one hospital etc… so you’re running into people from work or their spouses and assorted family all the time. And we handle it as adults.

      I’d say, be up-front about it to your management chain, don’t buddy-buddy up with them more than needed (seems you aren’t already), and cross any bridges if you come to them. IOW, if you have to fire them, that’s late enough to drop out of the sports team if things get rough.

  31. Kitty101*

    Referral programs: is it normal to never hear anything back?

    My company has a paid referral program — I think something like $4000 for a hire, which they promote frequently with plugs, raffles, etc. I recently submitted a referral for a former colleague and good friend, who I thought would be an excellent fit for an open role (I submitted with the highest possible rating, and a detailed personal note on the referral).

    Total silence both to her and to me, and the role has now been filled (4 weeks later).

    Is this normal? I would have expected at least an acknowledgment, and ideally a personal note to me if they’re not even contacting her for an interview. I also get that they want to protect applicants’ privacy, so wondering how these are normally handled. It’s fine that they didn’t want to interview her (and from the timing, they may have had candidates in late stages already), but I’m bothered by the lack of any kind of message about it. a colleague told me she had the same experience with a strong referral recently.

    I’m inclined not to bother submitting anyone I actually have a relationship with again, as i felt like it made me look bad to the person I was referring. but not sure if I should say anything to the recruiting/HR team that is constantly promoting this program, or accept that this is normal and just not a system that I like.

    1. Panda (she/her)*

      I have referred several candidates, and my company has a really similar program. I never heard back one way or another until they got hired, so in my experience it is pretty typical – I think it makes sense to protect the privacy of the applicant, but hopefully the company would at least give them a call or something.

      You don’t know why the person wasn’t interviewed though – maybe they are fantastic but lack experience in something that was key for the position, or maybe there was already someone well into the process and they decided not to interview anyone else unless that person didn’t work out. I wouldn’t read too much into it.

      1. Kitty101*

        That’s helpful thanks! I’m really not reading into it, but would have liked any kind of acknowledgment (like, hey just so you know, saw your referral but we’re moving forward with other candidates) so that I can be in contact with my referral and not look cold / like I’m ignoring them / like a doofus who doesn’t know what’s going on.

        *Ideally* I would like some feedback (like, we really only hire folks with X industry background for those teams) so that I don’t waste my time in future, but I do understand that it may be easier for privacy protection to have a policy not to share a reason at all.

        Anyway sounds like from comments here, this is just normal and not a practice I like. Oh well!

        1. ThatGirl*

          I think it also depends somewhat if you have any sort of relationship with the hiring manager. If it’s for a team you work with (or your team) that’s different than just “I submitted a referral through our HRIS”.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I’ve referred two people at my current company – one didn’t get hired (I think she did get a phone screen); the other did. I never heard anything about the one who didn’t get hired, at all. And honestly the main reason I heard anything about the one who did get hired was because it was for a team that works very closely with mine.

    3. The Other Evil HR Lady*

      That was very not-nice from your company. We have referral programs as well, and if we get a referral we definitely contact the employee, at least, with a final decision. Like you said, it’s okay to not hire a referral, but it’s not okay to not communicate with the employee doing the referral. That’s just smart! You want to give your employee as much information as feasible; maybe not go into detail about why the candidate was rejected, but a “thank you for the referral, but they’re not quite what we had in mind” would go a long way to make you feel like your effort was appreciated… just like with everything else in employment: a little communication goes a long way to keep the employee engaged and committed, ya know?

    5. Dragon*

      I had 5 or 6 interviews over 6 months, at a firm where the employer who referred me had been my boss at a former employer. The positions were the same type, but in different departments.

      So I was comfortable asking my referral to find out if the silence was because they weren’t going to hire me. She did, and that seemed to snap them out of their inertia.

    6. tamarak & fireweed*

      If she applied (do you know she did?) and was not selected I think we’re in the normal realm of lackluster behavior of employers to contact unsuccessful candidates back. For me, contacting you (especially if you don’t have an ongoing close relationship with the hiring manager) is an optional extra. TBH, if her application materials didn’t stand out, they may have forgotten that she was an employee referral…

  32. The cat’s ass*

    Has anyone else had this happen? My husband has been working as a w2 contractor for the last 3 months and two weeks ago they just ran out of work while owing him his last two weeks of pay. They haven’t paid him but also don’t want him to file for unemployment, stating “we’re looking for something else for you to do,” but in the meantime aren’t paying him to sit around. He filed for UI anyway and also contacted the NLRB about retrieving the salary owed him. Do y’all have any other suggestions on how to handle this? Thanks!

    1. Kay*

      I would go to your state’s department of labor and perhaps do some Googling regarding your state specific laws. It sounds like you are on the right track though – good luck!

      1. ShysterB*

        I second the suggestion to look into your state’s Department of Labor — filing a wage claim through your state agency can (sometimes) help jar someone into compliance (especially if your state’s law imposes individual liability upon the company folks responsible for the delay).

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You’ve done the right things. If the employer finds some work for him to do, he just stops certifying for UI benefits.

      In my state there’s a 1 week unpaid “waiting period” before benefits kick in.

    3. PollyQ*

      I’d suggest looking around for a new employer, because this:

      They haven’t paid him but also don’t want him to file for unemployment, stating “we’re looking for something else for you to do,”

      is total bullshit and shows that they’re not operating in good faith.

    4. NorthBayTeky*

      It’s illegal to withhold his pay.

      I have a sister who quit a job at a Burger King. I think she said she told them to mail her last paycheck. Well, they didn’t, so she went to the store to collect it. It wasn’t there and (not sure what happened next, they sent it back?) So she filed a claim with California Fair Labor and Housing. Not only did they have to give her the back wages, they had to pay her an additional two weeks for the trouble of not getting her paycheck to her.

      I hope you’re in California, cuz they don’t’ mess around.

      1. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

        Yes in California you are owed your pay on your last day of employment. In most other states, it would generally be paid on whatever is the company’s next normal pay cycle (usually within 2 weeks).

  33. Not_Kate_Winslet*

    I’m looking for stories/examples of people leaving government employment mid-career for the private sector.

    My 20-year career has been 100% government jobs, all in the same field, all with increasing responsibility / visibility. My chosen career path is public health, and I was drawn to this as a service career… literally embodying “public servant.” The pandemic has broken me. I never thought I would leave public service, but the last several months have made it very apparent that I must, if I wish to preserve my sanity and sense of self-worth. I read public sector postings that *seem* applicable to my experience, but I also have a severe case of imposter syndrome, thinking I couldn’t possibly be qualified for these jobs… My private sector friends assure me that they’re just words, and that they would feel the same way upon reading government job postings.

    Is there anyone out there who has successfully made the switch? Any advice about resume makeovers (terminology? transferable skills?), how to navigate the huge shift in benefits (which as a government employee – they are AMAZING), how to negotiate for pay when you know you’ve been massively underpaid for years (because that’s just what is expected and accepted)?

    1. Charlotte+Lucas*

      As someone who’s switched between government & private a few times, you can do it! I know that businesses that have government contracts love hiring people who’ve worked in the trenches, often at pretty high levels. Nonprofits, too. Look for industry-adjacent work.

      Definitely update your resume to make it more corporate-friendly. Resumes for government work tend to be more detailed & have to meet different requirements. Good luck!

    2. PX*

      You can do it!

      I would definitely do some research as far as salary goes (Glassdoor/Alisons salary thread etc) so that you have a number in mind of what someone with your skills and experience should be making.

      Then I would try and use my network or find appropriate recruiters to work with. You will likely need a resume makeover, but I think Alisons guide on how to write one is extremely accurate for pretty much most fields. But try and run it past any friends or colleagues you can, and potentially recruiters. They can be pretty hit or miss, but if you find a good one (look for specialists) they really can be worth it. If you’re not on LinkedIn, suggest setting up a profile there, and again, you can use it for research purposes. Looking for people who have the job title you are aiming for and see what kind of skills/background they have can be a great way of reassuring yourself that you can do the job, but also finding out about what kind of companies hire in it!

    3. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Since you mentioned public health, this may be unlikely, but wanted to mention just in case. If you have security clearance (which of course I would not expect you to confirm here!), but if you do, I strongly recommend looking at technology companies like Amazon, Microsoft, Google, etc since they hire people with clearance to work on their air-gapped clouds. OR, even if you don’t have security clearance, many of these technology companies have the federal gov’t as a customer, and sometimes have whole organizations just to support their gov’t customers. I agree with what everyone has told you (and I’ve told this to a friend in the gov’t in the past, so would be crazy if it’s you!), you can absolutely break into the private sector. 100000%

    4. Former Govt*

      Go for it! I was in government for about 15 years and had risen through the ranks until I was working directly for the Agency Director. There was no other place to go and I was massively burnt out and underpaid. The last time I asked for a salary adjustment I was given $500 a year and told “don’t ask again.”

      I ended up getting a job through my network and getting at massive (nearly double) pay increase. Six years on and I am still thrilled with the move.

      Here are some suggestions:
      – Spend the time really revamping your resume. It’s a pain but it will be worth it. At government job I didn’t need to rely on my resume since I got in line promotions so mine had not been touched in at least five years.

      – Find 1 or 2 people you trust who will critique the resume and take their feedback.

      – Do the math on what your salary needs are to account for the potential loss on benefits. Also factor in the actual salary increase you want. In my case, I shifted to my spouse’s heath insurance but my salary bump more than made up for the increased premium. Also at government they were not matching any retirement but at my current company, they so 401k match, stock, and bonuses so I feel like benefits are even better.

      – With your experience, you are a Subject Matter Expert in your field. Many consulting companies would be glad to have someone who thinks like and understands their clients.

      – Use your network.

      – When you land in a new job, give yourself time to adjust. I found the culture shift a bit jarring even though the culture was better. I found new job to be less micro managing, more open, more flexible and trusting. However, I had a hard time trusting that people would follow through.

      Best of luck!

  34. Miss Fisher*

    What is up with titles? I work for a large org that hands out titles all the time. I was recently “promoted” to an Assistant Vice President. But when I told family, I was asked VP of what. Of nothing, is the answer, it is just a title. It doesn’t have any additional perks, but seems to be more of something to do when they cannot move you up etc.

    So my questions are, is this something that happens at larger orgs in general? If so, what is the actual benefit of the title if it doesn’t come with any perks.

    1. Alice*

      Early in my career I assumed that someone with a VP title was legit the second-in-command of the company, but I’ve come to find that it’s just something fancy sounding that gets handed out all over the place. I think it’s just a way of indicating seniority or placement in the hierarchy, or an acknowledgment that you’re doing higher level work while not changing your actual job.

    2. Littorally*

      Some VPs are “VP of [Thing]” but sometimes it’s just a way to say where you are in the hierarchy. I am an AVP, working up the chain with VPs and Senior VPs, and down the chain with Officers and Senior Specialists.

      We are a large firm and also extremely specialized, so the rank titles help keep things straight when everyone’s function titles are all over the place and don’t directly compare well.

    3. Sylvan*

      Are you in banking/finance? That’s one of the biggest industries in my city and people have talked about VP titles being given frequently. I haven’t heard of it in other fields.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Was going to ask this question as well. It seems like 30% of the people in retail banking are called “Vice President”. It’s just a weird thing in that industry.

    4. Irish girl*

      I think at my company once you are an AVP you get a parking space in the underground parking garage which is for “executives” only. After AVP’s its VP, Senior VP, Executive VP and then President/CEO. Most AVPs are 3-4 levels from the CEO. THey might have more responsibility than Directors but still not as much as a VP.

    5. Desdemona*

      In tech, VPs are very common. They report to the C-suite and are often department heads, managing several director-level people. Directors then manage managers, who manage the individual contributors. For some departments where there typically isn’t ever a c-level position (those are usually finance, tech, product, and operations, and that’s it) it’s the highest you could ever get promoted in your career.

  35. Bernie*

    One of my co-workers grandmother passed away this week. She went to her boss to let them know she would be taking Friday (today) off for the services and our boss who is head of HR replies: The full day?

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      The level of grief -laden snark that would come out of my mouth if someone said that to me would know NO bounds.

      Yes my grandmother will be deceased the full day, so I will be out the full day.

    6. JustaTech*

      Why are people like that?
      In one year (several years ago) both my grandmother and my husband’s grandmother passed away (at the end of very long lives). My boss was nothing but kind, understanding and helpful, making sure that I wasn’t cutting anything short with family for work.

    9. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

      “Yes, the full day. And I was so shocked my Gram dying, I forgot to say, I’ll be out next week to sit Shiva as well.”

    10. Chauncy Gardener*

      What the actual f–k? We just got through (almost) the panini and even HR people don’t know how to handle a death in an employee’s family??
      Flames! etc

    11. tamarak & fireweed*

      “I will assume for your benefit that you are lucky enough not having to deal with bereavement recently. Yes, the full day.”

  36. Anon Today*

    TL;DR My company offers crap parental leave, should I find a new job with better leave or try to negotiate for a longer leave?

    Long version: I just discovered that my company only offers 6 weeks of maternity leave (and 2 weeks “bonding leave” for non-birthing parents). Yes, I should have looked this up before, but in my defense it was hard to find. I know that for some folks 6 weeks would be great, but my state now offers 12 weeks paid (but only if your employer doesn’t offer paid leave).
    Should I try to find a new job (ASAP before it’s obvious I’m pregnant) or can I try to negotiate a longer leave with my company since I’m one of the only people with my skills and knowledge (and the knowledge at least can’t be hired in, it all comes from experience and tenure here)? Has anyone negotiated longer leave, or a part-time WFH return? Part of the issue is that it is almost impossible to find childcare here.

    1. JustMyImagination*

      Double check the state law! I’m in MA and companies can only opt out of the state mandated leave if they offer equivalent or better than the law.

    2. Midwestern Scientist*

      Can you do both? Start the conversation with you boss/HR and start submitting your resume to jobs you would be interested in. If your current situation works out, great! If not, you have a start on your job search

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Agree with JustMyImagination to double check the law in your state.

        Also agree with Irish girl, this is an important distinction and may affect the pay part to be worse than what you might expect. Before my last company changed their policy to the current 12 week paid parental leave, maternity leave was actually handled as short term disability, which is 6 weeks (unless you had a C-section, which gave you 8 weeks) but of that 6 weeks, the first week is unpaid and the remaining 5 weeks is paid at 80% salary. The unpaid time could be compensated up to 100% via any accrued PTO, but it wasn’t 100% regular pay for 6 full weeks. FWIW I didn’t know any of that myself until I was dealing with HR to get it set up!

        That said, there’s no harm in asking for 12 weeks (with the framing of “has this policy been updated in keeping with state law?”), and also no harm in looking. The more information you have, the better. Good luck!

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      One problem is that if you start somewhere else as a new employee, you may or may not be eligible for parental leave when you start work!

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        That was my huge initial concern when I read this too. Heck, Old-Job kept me on Brand A STD insurance when they switched policies because Brand B would have refused to cover me had I switched at 6 mo pregnant.

    5. Alatheia*

      Do you qualify for FMLA?
      Is the 6 weeks paid? Can you take more unpaid? 6 weeks paid would be very generous leave in the US.

      The issue with finding a new job is that FMLA wouldn’t apply to you in the first year, so you may end up in a worse position.

    6. New Mom*

      First, congrats! I think a lot of companies have caveats that you need to be employed for 12 months to access their maternity benefits, some don’t. If you are able to quickly find a company that would give you better mat leave regardless of tenure then that’s great, but it might be easier to try to negotiate with your current employer. Ask if you can tack on sick/vacation after the 6 weeks or if you can take unpaid time off for an additional amount of time. If this is truly a deal breaker you could also take your maternity leave and then just be done with that company, spend time with your baby and then start job hunting when you are ready to go back. I know the last suggestion is contingent on finances though. Mat leave is deeply disappointing in the US, hugs from a fellow pregnant worker bee.

  37. Zorra*

    Does anyone have an expense management/reimbursement software that they recommend? My company is switching our software, and I’ve never actually worked anywhere with a good system! Do they actually exist?

    1. Kitty101*

      Everywhere I’ve worked has used Expensify, and it’s… fine! I like that I can forward in emails and they get tagged automatically (decently well, at least). Filing expenses is still annoying, as it probably will be until the robots fully take over. But Expensify is a decent option.

    2. Coenobita*

      We use Concur and it’s fine. But then again, my only comparison is the Excel spreadsheets my previous employer used!

      1. Princess Xena*

        We use Concur too. I haven’t had any significant issues with it. Bonus is that it has the capability to link up to the site where we book business travel and auto-generate starting reports when it knows we’re going to be flying/staying in a hotel.

    3. AdequateArchaeologist*

      We use Deltek Vision. I’m on the inputting side rather than the accounting side and I think it works fairly well. You can link up an employee’s company credit card so the charges show up and you can select it to auto fill so there’s less chance of a typo messing things up. The app crashes all the time, and the timekeeping function can be a PITA, but the desktop version of the expense function is good.

    4. Zorra*

      Thanks, everyone! This is really helpful. If anyone else has any thoughts (either from accounting or inputting), I’d love to hear them!

    6. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I saw an ad on the side of a bus today for something called Expensify, and it advertised free expense reports. Can’t vouch for it, but sharing in case it’s helpful.

    7. Chauncy Gardener*

      I cannot verbalize succinctly how much I hate Concur. Cumbersome Concur. Big, not streamlined, illogical, not easy to use PITA of a system. I am in Accounting/Finance FYI. But have heard how much users hate it too

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        Many colleagues in our organization hate Concur–on the user end. I think Finance likes it, but our Finance is full of clever people who also can’t get payroll right, so don’t go by that.

  38. Panda (she/her)*

    I’m really unhappy at my job, and mostly because of my manager – I need to feel like my manager has my back, and with mine I just don’t feel that way at all. I am at the point of leaving and have applied to and gotten interviews for other jobs, but also just got a promotion (which doesn’t solve the issues, but does reflect that they value me as an employee). I’m weighing whether I speak up and tell them how unhappy I am in the hopes that something changes, or just leave and give a bland reason of “needed a change” in my exit interview. I do believe they would be highly motivated to keep me and I really enjoy the work and the people I work with, but not sure how much emotional energy I want to put into explaining myself. My company is fairly small and my manager is pretty senior, so there aren’t too many options around changing managers/departments.

    If you have tried “job crafting” or spoken up about issues rather than leaving, let me know how it went? Any advice or tips?

    1. MustardPillow*

      Well, if you’re going to leave anyway, what’s the risk of a direct conversation with the boss? Okay, maybe a reference if they’re unreasonable. Is the manager an unreasonable person who is high on their own power? Or are they just a person trying to prioritize their own tasks and doesn’t realize they’ve let one go? If it’s the former, leave. If it’s the latter, speak up.

    2. ferrina*

      What is it that you want your manager to do that they aren’t currently doing?

      If it’s things like regular meetings or including you in X, those are fixable things that you can speak up about now.
      If it’s things like “they tell me one thing, but if it blows up they throw me under the bus”, that’s a character issue and won’t change and isn’t safe to bring up. Just leave and don’t say anything that might jeopardize your reference.
      If it’s things like “I really like to collaborate, but my manager is really busy and doesn’t have time for me”, that’s a structural issue. It won’t change but it’s something you can bring up. It flags for them that they might consider changing the role, or if they can’t/won’t change the role, it will help them know how to hire people that can thrive in that environment.

    3. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I did this once early in my career, and my director at the time (my manager’s boss), essentially moved me to report to them instead to keep me from leaving that team. So it is possible. Although to your point, if it’s a small company, is there even anyone else to report to? But since you were just promoted, and you’ll potentially leave anyway to get away from this manager, yes I would say something. Good luck!

  39. SQL Coder Cat*

    So I posted last week about the top candidate for the newly created middle manager between the team I’m on and our current manager being a big fan of Kim Scott’s radical candor. I’m lucky to be on a very diverse, inclusive team with a great team culture, and I’ve had bad experiences with people misusing the concept in the past. I asked how much of a red flag others would consider this.

    I spoke to my current manager about my concerns, and she agreed to probe deeper with the candidate in her final interview. She ended up offering the position, but did tell him he would need to work with her on appropriate ways of giving feedback. And… after a few days of considering the offer, he turned it down. The stated reason was the health insurance didn’t work for him, but we have amazing health insurance so I’m not sure that was the reason.

    At any rate, I consider this a bullet successfully dodged.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I’m chuckling at the thought that someone who believes in radical candor may have given a fake answer to why they turned down the offer.

      However, glad to hear you won’t have to experience the candor first-hand!

    2. cubone*

      I really liked Radical Candor and found it helpful and it’s super disappointing how misused it is. In general I am fascinated by the ways a lot of concepts that stemmed from resources around psychological safety and mental health and well-being are manipulated so disgustingly by the power hungry. I’ve said in other comments before but I swear there is a crop of Fake Brene Browns wielding “authenticity” as a weapon. I’ve encountered a few and they terrify me.

      1. SQL Coder Cat*

        Exactly. In theory, I love the practice of Radical Candor. However, in practice I’ve only seen it used as a tool by bullies to disempower their subordinates.

  40. Murfle*

    I need some help about giving advice. I have a friend who is about the same age as me. We’re both in our late 30s. After I graduated, I was able to find a corporate career path, and I’ve been working in online content/tech for about a decade.

    My friend, however, never really figured out what he wanted to do with his life. He tried getting into voice acting but nothing much came of that. So he’s been stuck in a string of retail jobs for years, while getting financial support from his parents. However, his parents have finally given him some sort of cutoff/ultimatum: they’ve said that they can’t continue to give him the same level of support, and that he needs to find a way to support himself by the end of the year.

    My friend has a series of health problems, and his non-retail work experience (helping people prepare tax returns) is years out of date. So, he needs help finding work, and while I’m willing to do so, I’m not sure how.

    He doesn’t know what stuff he’s good at. The only thing he can think of right now is remote data entry work. But how does he find a job like that with minimal experience? More importantly, how do I help him without overwhelming him with resume advice, links to AAM, remote work subreddits, recommendations for temp agencies, etc?

    1. Charlotte+Lucas*

      I used to train customer service reps, & it sounds like he has the skills necessary for that job, which usually pays better than data entry. Most places will train you into either of those jobs, provided you have basic computer skills. But he should emphasize the soft/people skills he has from retail. Also something places want in a receptionist.

      Temp/employment agencies can also lead to something. I worked for a while for a staffing agency. It led to my current position & I got benefits in the meantime.

      Depending on where he lives, there are a lot of options out there right now for someone with a more service-based job path

    2. ferrina*

      I broke into office work via temping. If you can afford to do that for a while (I’d recommend to plan up to a year, though hopefully it wouldn’t take that long), that can show that you are good in office environments and allows you to see a variety of roles.
      You should be applying to roles at the same time. The trick is to not burn yourself out. Give yourself time to not apply, and be realistic in what you apply for. If I only have mental bandwidth to apply to 4 jobs a week, great! Do that! Be picky about what you apply for- apply for what you’re most excited about, because that will come through in your materials. As you temp more and get familiarity with different types of roles, that will help you tailor the position that you’re looking for and the experiences that you should be highlighting. At least, that’s my advice for seekers.

      For you as a friend, I’d first check in with him. Does he want your help? If not, I’d stay out of it. This might mean that you put a moratorium on job related conversation for a while (if you know it will frustrate you to hear). If he does want help, serve as a Subject Matter Expert first. Help him map a plan. Encourage him to keep it realistic- it can be really freeing to hear someone else tell you “take a break. It will make you better”. (I know I felt like a slacker if I wasn’t applying to 20 places per week, and most weeks I just couldn’t). Keep your advice bite size- Maybe on Week 1 he works out a plan for the next year. On week 2 he revamps his resume. On week 3, it’s the cover letter. On week 4, he’s in a temp agency. Week 5, tailoring search filters and starting to explore and apply. If he has energy to do more, great, he can get ahead (like getting ahead in your homework in college- definitely not for everyone, but it makes some people really happy).
      Good luck to you both!

    3. Anon in IL*

      Did your friend like preparing tax returns? The recent Washington Post article “ Fighting a red-hot job market, the IRS struggles to rebuild” describes several employees who made the switch from retail to IRS work.

    4. Cordelia*

      It sounds like he has experience in retail work – is he trying to get out of that field? Otherwise, isn’t it possible for him to continue with that, and develop those skills further? Perhaps into supervisory or management in retail, or administrative back-office type functions. If he’s looking for your help, could you help him by thinking with him about the skills he has gained through his retail work and how he can build on or transfer those?

    5. Rear Mech*

      Entry level accounts receivable (sometimes the job title will just be AR or A/R) usually pays better than retail and comes with PTO & benefits. Good fit for someone with lots of customer service experience, especially if he leans on the tax prep experience and “wanting to get back into an accounting role”

      2. Eff Walsingham*

        *nods* I got into entry-level accounts payable after years of mostly retail, by going the temp-to-perm route. I’ve been temp-to-perm through two different agencies in two major cities now. I found using agencies less soul-killing than applying and being rejected for individual jobs.

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If in the US, there are free career services through your local Dept of Labor. CareerOneStop . org is the US DOL’s site and has some easy and free career assessments with accompanying occupational descriptions, wage info, etc.

      The temp agency route is a great one. Once an agency finds someone that does good work, they’re likely to find new and better slots when the assignment is done. Until you’re inside CorporateLand you don’t always know what sorts of jobs there are and what you might be good at.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Temp agencies are a great option. Which one is best is a local issue. He can look them up and see what they’re offering, or do a search filter for their names on craigslist or your local paper’s online want ads.

      Coming out of retail, an online search of places like indeed isn’t going to be helpful. He needs to find some small to midsized companies or local government positions that can bridge him into other jobs.

    8. roxie*

      Gently, I would caution against you taking too much of this on for him. He sounds like he may have a habit of relying on other people to a fault and it is very nice of you to be generous and helpful but I hope you don’t get trapped…

  41. Hotdog not dog*

    One of our branch offices has hired a new manager. We’re a male dominated industry and she will be the only female branch manager in our area. This will be her first time managing financial advisors. (Who are a unique breed.) I have only met her briefly, but she seems to be nice. I’d like her to succeed, mostly because some of the jackasses I work with have already started complaining about having to report to a woman. (Yes, it’s still 2022, I also had to check to be sure we hadn’t accidentally fallen through a time warp to 1950!)
    I’m sure she’s fully able to take care of herself, but apart from being generally welcoming and supportive, what are some specific actions I and my more reasonable colleagues can take to help her succeed? I’m an individual contributor with no real power and I won’t be working directly with her branch, but again, I’d love to see her knock it out of the park!
    Also, if you are a female manager in a male dominated industry, what are some specific issues you faced? I’m wondering if I can help steer a few things in the right direction. While I have little actual power, I do have friends in both high and low places. In case it matters, I am also a woman, but not a manager.
    Thank you!

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      If your friends in high and low places are men, I’d push on them to push back on other men in all-men spaces. Male misogynists are much better listening to other men correct them about women than they are at listening to women defend other women.

    2. Kitty101*

      Some useful advice I’ve seen is to try to consciously create the kind of semi-social support network that the white guys naturally create with each other. Take her to lunch, introduce her to people, share office gossip, etc. I believe that advice came from Michelle Silverthorn’s book or TED talk if you’re looking for more ideas.

      1. PX*

        THIS. I was going to say if you have been around longer, make an effort to help her out by giving her the lowdown on office/company politics/culture early. Big her up to others even when she’s not around (if shes doing good work). Share your network with her if you can etc.

    3. Midwestern Scientist*

      Encourage your friends, especially males, to push back on the “I don’t want to report to a woman” types ASAP

    4. FDS*

      I would honestly go to HR on this one or call your compliance line if you have one. I see that others have been advising you on having the other men push back against the negativity but I disagree. In my experience, men are absolutely useless when it comes to stopping misogyny. Don’t ally with them and temper your expectations if for some reason you do. I just can’t trust it no more then I would trust bears to self police a bear attack problem.

  42. Napster*

    Seeking a reality check:

    Been in the job for six years. $1/hour raise on 1/1/2019. Nothing since then. Been promised job description (nope, never had an actual job description), review, and pay increase since 1/1/2019 — has not happened. Boss often tells me “you were right” on various business issues (but continues to disregard my input). Could go on and on about dysfunction and frustration.

    Bottom line: Kind people with good hearts, but I’m losing my mind and preparing to bolt ASAP. Reasonable?

    4. WineNot*

      Not reasonable. Especially with the insane changes in our world since 2019, they NEED to be able to at least give you raises to keep up with that. I would ask one last time for money and anything you want from them, and if they can’t give it, bolt. Good luck!

      1. Econobiker*

        Ask for the raise, input, etc and let these clueless / cheap people know how much more it would cost to replace your position. But don’t expect them to budge because you have been so inexpensive to date. They won’t “get it” until you leave and they try to hire someone new in at your old wage level…

        Best of luck with your journey and new job future.

    5. Rayray*

      Leave! They’re clearly not loyal to you so they do not deserve your loyalty. It goes both ways.

    6. Shiba Dad*

      Been in a similar situation. We were promised raises and bonuses for a couple years. Didn’t receive either. Management also didn’t listen to employees, even after stuff we warned about came true.

      This was a small office (~15 people) owned by a larger company. Three of us left (not me*) within a four month period. Parent company management paid us a visit because they had no clue why people would leave.

      Miraculously, raises and the occasional bonus started happen.

      Perfectly reasonable for you to want to get out.

      *I tried to get out too. Eventually did several years later.

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      Bolt bolt bolt! What on earth makes this worth staying for? Even if there are some good things about the job, isn’t it worth at least looking to see what else is out there that might be better?

    9. PollyQ*

      They are not that all kind or good-hearted if they’re not giving you what they’ve promised, especially in terms of pay. Bolt! Bolt like the wind!

    10. Napster*

      Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for all the kind, encouraging comments. Putting on my track shoes!

  43. Amber Rose*

    Anyone else got some wins they’d like to brag about?

    Our new hire has worked out so awesomely I have completed two projects and I’m like 75% of the way through my one extremely massive one. Also my boss gave me a task that he expected would take around three hours and I was like, “This data is exportable to Excel. BY THE POWER OF VLOOKUP!” and got it done in 20 minutes. I’m unreasonably excited to show off my Excel skills.

    All of this despite what was one of the most meeting-tastic weeks I’ve had in a while.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      What was with the meetings this week? I feel like everyone was slammed with them, including me! My biggest pride moment this week was knowing that the person I recommended for a role is absolutely killing it. I’m unreasonably smug and want to yell “I TOLD YOU SO” from the roof tops.

    2. Foxgloves*

      I’ve just been nominated for a work award for “best collaboration”!! I’ve been feeling a bit like my work has been going unnoticed, but the team overseeing the awards sent through the details of the nominations, and the THREE (!! Most people only get one!) were absolutely glowing. I’m so happy, even if I don’t end up winning, it’s SO nice to know that my work is being noticed.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      I received an overall rating on my performance review for the past year that basically amounts to “your work has been above and beyond the good performance we expect of you. You therefore rock, and shall receive a larger raise than most people.” Not many folks in my organization get this. I haven’t gotten it since we went to this style of review (it’s always been the “you’re doing great, keep up the good work” rating, which most people get). The past year, for review purposes started not long after my return to work after maternity leave. So I’ve been working from home, dealing with a toddler as a first-time parent. I also took a day off every week for a few months, and then every other week for a few more months. And I STILL managed to get this rating. I’m feeling pretty fucking good about myself with regards to this.

    4. Alianora*

      I have a win that is maybe kind of a weird thing to be excited about! I’m leaving my job for a new one, already excited about that, and I had a great exit interview this week. It’s not like being good at this is a skill that will help me in the future, but I’m still happy it went well.

      I was nervous because I’d never done one before, but I gave our HR person a lot of honest feedback. (She is very nice, so that helped put me at ease.) At the end she thanked me and said this was actually one of the best exit interviews she’s done, both because I gave examples of things that could be improved and because I had already been bringing them up with management over the course of my job. Apparently a lot of people either give no feedback at all, or they complain about things for the first time in the exit interview.

      I also told her the percentage of my new salary increase, and she said that was helpful information so she can advocate for higher raises in the future. And we talked about a promotion that had been in the works for me, which she confirmed would still be moving forward for my counterpart in the same role – so I’m really happy that I could possibly be helping my current coworkers in the future.

    5. Pascall*

      I’ve had a total of 5 first-round interviews and 2 invitations to second-round interviews in the last two weeks. So that reassured me that my credentials and resume are appealing to employers. Hoping one of them results in an offer. All of them offer at least a $20k raise and fully work from home, so I’m stoked!

  44. Congrats, it's Friday!*

    Hi there! I’m wondering how to approach a colleague who frequently makes jokes about being fired (e.g. “As long as Boss doesn’t fire me, anyway!”). Currently this person reports to my boss and I don’t know what kind of feedback they have provided. However, I’ve just learned that they’ll report to me in an upcoming re-org, and I’d like to ask that they stop making these jokes. Additionally, I’m aware that this person is not meeting expectations, so while the jokes seem to come at random times, they might be rooted in some very real concerns about their job security.

    I was thinking that, in the manager role, I could address this 1:1, eg, “you often joke about getting fired, to the point where I’m wondering if you have concerns about your role or job security here. Can we talk through that?” Addressing any concerns and then eventually asking that they stop making these jokes. Whhat do you all think?

    1. CrazyPlantLady*

      I think it’s a bit dramatic for you to say that and it would come off really weird.

      I’d just say something like “man I hope you’re just joking!”

      1. Congrats, it's Friday!*

        This is way better for when these comments are live/in-person—thank you! This comes up a lot in Slack and just feels strange to address.

      1. Congrats, it's Friday!*

        Idk, I think jokes about firing are generally something to steer clear of (especially at this frequency)—definitely if they’re coming from the boss but also coming from a senior team member. It’s a weird team vibe to see this frequently both in live conversations and team Slack channels.

      2. Observer*

        But they are not asking this person to stop making jokes. They are asking to stop making jokes about A SINGLE SUBJECT.

      1. Congrats, it's Friday!*

        Yep, right on. I’ve been overthinking this transition since I learned about it yesterday and am clearly not focusing on the right piece.

    5. Jen MaHRtini*

      I’d bet money that they use these ‘jokes’ as a way of deflecting real conversations about their performance by putting their current manager in a position of having to reassure them, and will do the same to you. Your line of questioning sounds good, and I think you can ask them to engage in real feedback with you, and avoid extremes that get in the way of that and make others uncomfortable if they hear it.

    6. Congrats, it's Friday!*

      I’m rereading this now and I was definitely not taking the right approach/not worrying about the right thing. I need a little more time to digest my feelings about this person and transition. Appreciate the comments here and the opportunity to get a reality check.

      1. Bernice Clifton*

        Does this person make these jokes directly TO their current boss? If not, maybe they won’t with you after the re-org. I probably still wouldn’t bring it up off the bat because it comes off as a little, “New Sheriff In Town”.

    7. Dark Macadamia*

      If she makes the joke to your face when you’re managing her, maybe treat it like a concern and clarify the PIP/firing process? “Oh, I would definitely never fire you without warning unless it was something egregious like a crime! If I have concerns about your work I’d start by…” etc. I feel like Alison suggested some scripts in a post where someone kept asking the LW “am I in trouble?” or something like that.

    8. Dragonfly7*

      My Grandboss had to be specifically ordered by HR to stop making jokes about firing people. Is the person making jokes about being fired possibly getting that kind of feedback?

    9. Observer*

      Additionally, I’m aware that this person is not meeting expectations, so while the jokes seem to come at random times, they might be rooted in some very real concerns about their job security.

      I was thinking that, in the manager role, I could address this 1:1, eg, “you often joke about getting fired, to the point where I’m wondering if you have concerns about your role or job security here. Can we talk through that?” Addressing any concerns

      Well here is the thing – you really can’t address the concerns, if he’s really on thin ice.

      You can still ask him to stop making those jokes, at least around you.

  45. Nameless Intern*

    I’m currently an intern at a teapot production site and have about 2.5 months of my 6 month internship left. My supervisors and colleagues have made it quite clear that they would like me to work stay and work a full time position after my internship. I have applied for this and it’s likely that I’ll get an offer from the company sometime within the next two or three weeks.

    However, I’m having some doubts about actually working here, partially due to the job duties of the full time position as well as working conditions. I commute over an hour total each day to my place of work, overtime would be expected (although compensated either with money or time off), and it’s shift work where we change every week from early to late shift. I really miss the flexibility and routine of having regular working hours and feel like I’m either at work or on my way to work, which will only get worse in a full-time position.

    My question is: If they do make me an offer and I decide to decline it, how do I do it gracefully? I would need to communicate this to my managers and peers who seem to already be planning with me as a full-time employee and I feel bad about messing up their plans. Additionally, I’ll still have about 2 months left by the time I potentially decline the offer so I’m worried that they’ll be annoyed with me. Rationally, I know that this is just business and they know I still have concerns about the job, but still. Please help!

    1. Jora Malli*

      I think you can probably blame your commute and say you’re looking for something closer to home.

    2. d*

      I very much appreciate the opportunity and the experience I’ve gained at your company, but I’ve decided to decline the full time position. I plan to finish the internship to the best of my ability and wish you the best as you look for the right person to fill this role full time.

    3. Kes*

      I think you can say that while you [enjoyed working with them | learned a lot | whatever applies], after thinking about it you’ve realized that the commute and schedule aren’t feasible for you long term.
      This is pretty reasonable and even if they’re a little disappointed, you need to make the choice that’s right for you and if they are reasonable people, they know that.

  46. J*

    Any other teachers jumping ship out there? I’m a high school biology teacher, and I’ve been looking around for other options, but I just can’t find much that sparks my interest that I’m qualified for. I’d actually really like to stay in the education field, just out of the classroom. I’m consistently praised for my digital assignments, the organization of my LMS (learning management system) page, and the layout of my guided notes, but idk about any concrete accomplishments relating to these that I could put on my resume. I really like planning and designing user-friendly activities, but idk if I’m even looking at the right kinds of jobs. I’ve explored instructional design a bit, but I’m just not interested in a lot of the corporate training jobs that are out there. I’m passionate about science and really want to be able to use that passion. Is anyone currently in a job that sounds like what I’m looking for? Or any suggestions for job titles I should be searching? Thanks so much for any help you can send my way!

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Maybe look for jobs at education-related nonprofits? I was a classroom high school teacher and switched to working at an education nonprofit where I taught part time in their after-school programs and did administrative tasks if the mornings. It was a great way to still be interacting with students in a less stressful way because the students that came actually wanted to be there. My classroom experience was valuable because I knew what a good lesson and curriculum looked like, so I was able to help write and design really compelling grants.

    2. CG*

      Not a teacher or a scientist, but I have a few friends who have made the jump to things like 1) education policy/educational design/ed technology and 2) educator positions outside the classroom, like https://naaee.org/eepro/jobs and state DNR or extension service jobs.

    3. CG*

      More ideas: zoos, aquariums, science museums, and conservation centers often have education jobs. You might also be able to snag scientist positions if that’s something of interest. Since I’m on an environment tear today, I believe EPA has been posting some Environmental Protection Specialist jobs lately across the USA, and you could search for jobs on Indeed or similar that include terms like “biology”, “environmental science”, “STEM”, etc. and see what pops up in your area.

    5. anxious teacher*

      Yes and no: I’m leaving my current district and transitioning into a leadership role where I’ll only teach one class. So I don’t have any real advice in terms of other roles to look for—like you, I can’t really seem myself leaving education entirely, but over the past year it became clear that if I was going to continue to love classroom teaching, I was going to need to take a step back from it for at least a while. Hopefully the combination of new responsibilities + a new district (guaranteed to still have bullshit, but at least it’ll be different bullshit, right?) will help me rally a little bit.

      In the meantime, consider this a fistbump of exhausted solidarity. This year is almost over! We can make it!

    6. Rara+Avis*

      My husband went from classroom teaching to working in a hands-on museum (a job that evaporated in summer 2020) but the pay, frankly, was terrible.

    7. Fabulous*

      You sound exactly like one of my college friends, but he’s a theatre teacher! I’ve been coaching him a bit because he IS looking to get into instructional design and that’s currently what I do. There are several aspects to ID, and many companies (mine at least) separate them all out, i.e. the ID people don’t do the actual training, etc. I also work in the healthcare industry, and there are so many opportunities to use science specifically at this company.

      So, I guess to say this – don’t discount ID altogether. Look at companies where scientific knowledge is relevant, and you could probably thrive with instructional design, training, or even a type of marketing role for a specific product or service.

    8. Hannahnannah*

      My team just hired a technical writer role – the new hire left middle/high school teaching to work for a software company as a technical writer. They taught computer technology classes at the middle school level. The ability to explain complex concepts in a simple way is invaluable, and they bring that to the table naturally. As well, we do some client training which allows the new hire to contribute to instructional design for adults. So, that might be a way to translate skills from one career to another if you enjoy writing, organizing, and communicating.

      If you (or anyone else) apply for any tech writing jobs:
      – Definitely talk about how you communicate complex ideas and concepts to someone with a different/non-scientific background.
      – Mention your LMS involvement and what kinds of comments you have received (esp. see if you can convert the comments into an achievement — achieved x% increase in page usage because of xyz/helped students find information efficiently due to page layout, etc.).
      – Are your guided notes like a How To guide? That would be important to mention for tech writing. How To guides are a big part of the job.
      – You talk about enjoying the creation of user-friendly activities. Call attention to your ability to view tasks and concepts from the user’s perspective.

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        As someone who has been exposed to a lot of bad technical writing, I wish more teachers would become technical writers because I feel like they would be on average pretty great at it.

        1. MacGillicuddy*

          This. There’s a general opinion among some that English majors make good technical writers, but teachers make better technical writers. It’s not about flowing prose, it’s about communicating concepts and tasks to your specific audience.

    10. Loves libraries*

      I have a coworker that resigned this week to teach computer and technology at an online college as an adjunct. She will complete the remaining 2 1/2 weeks of school and begin in July.

  47. hmmm*

    Silliest question ever

    I had a project I was working on outside of work, but that 3 coworkers had experience in. My coworkers were amazing with help, tips, guidance. Now that my project is completed I plan on writing a thank you note to each and baking them each a plate of brownies (they all said they love and often request).

    One of my coworkers seems to be on a special diet. I have no idea of her diet, though she mentioned it was a medical reason. While she “cheats” I’ve never seen her do so. I do notice she loves to eat fruit. While the other 2 coworkers I plan on giving a large dinner plate size of brownies with my thank you… is it rude for me to give her a smaller plate and buy her fruit from a local resturaunt I notice she frequents? I figure when I give it to her I can explain, but on the other hand I don’t want to single her out either.

    I truly just want to give her a token gift as a thank you for her advice.

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      YES PLEASE do this, omg. Since you know she eats that, get her what she eats.

      I’ve had so many experiences in my own life with “we got you a cake!” I can’t eat that.” Two years later: “We got you a cake you can eat!” “That fits one of my dietary problems but not the biggest one.”

      If you’re ambivalent, reach out and ask what kind of thing she’d like? Preface it maybe with your idea, so she already knows you don’t plan to give her something out of the question. And that way you might find out about additional restrictions (ex: she can eat whole fruit, but anything cut up might have contamination from the unknown environment)

      1. quill*

        Yes. Though I would lead with the potential solution of the fruit plate so she doesn’t have to think up something immediately and do mental math about how much she can ask you for.

    2. Kitty101*

      You could customize each gift a similar amount (so each is half brownies, half something else)! Or even go half fruit for all 3, because fruit is great!

      That would help avoid singling her out without having to have a maybe-too-personal conversation about food with her.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Before you bake the brownies, talk to each coworker and say “I want to give you a gift to express my appreciation for your work on [project]. Are there any allergies/dietary restrictions I should be aware of?” Then you can tailor your gift(s) appropriately.

    4. OneTwoThree*

      What if you gave everyone brownies and fruit? Could you make it like a sweet/ charcuterie board? That way she wouldn’t be singled out?

      1. Cordelia*

        that’s what I was thinking. Unless the gifts need to be separate and individual for some reason, provide a big plate of brownies, and another big plate of fruit, and then people can take what they would like.

    5. hmmm*

      ok so it seems like doing 1/2 and 1/2 for each seems the way to go!

      Just a follow up question When I make brownies I can usually make it look nice, wrap them up etc. Will it look silly doing that and btw here’s a container of cut up fruit from xyz deli that you all seem to frequent? XYZ deli usually puts there food in those chinese food take out containers. There is no way to wrap it together.

    7. sagewhiz*

      Check out Edible! They offer a slew of fruit/food gifts, not just those big “bouquets” of yesteryear. Nice addition to the yummy brownies.

      1. Trivia Newton-John*

        Yes! Even if you order a small Edible Arrangements, you can take it apart and divide it up between the brownie plates, so it will look very pretty.

    8. CG*

      What about giving everyone non-food gifts, like plants or cool office things (Uncommon Goods type stuff)? You could also mention to her that you want to give everyone thank you snacks and ask what kinds of things usually work best for her.

    9. Irish Teacher*

      As somebody who is an extremely picky eater, I would love it so much if you made the effort to give me something I could eat. I wouldn’t feel singled out, at least not in a negative way. I’d feel you made an extra effort for me.

    10. The Prettiest Curse*

      As a person with an unusual food allergy, I’ve always been very touched when my colleagues have asked what I’d like for a thank-you gift. In my case, baked goods are out, but chocolate or alcohol would be totally fine. If someone did hand me brownies, I’d probably just take then home to my husband!

      1. hmmm*

        Lucky for my situation all 3 coworkers have said they enjoy my brownies but the 1 in question usually only has 1 or 2 bites

    11. RagingADHD*

      I’d go with a fruit basket instead of a takeout plate. It keeps longer and is more gift-y. You could DIY it and make it look pretty instead of dropping big money on a premade one.

      But the general concept of fruit vs brownies is very good.

    12. Stoppin' by to chat*

      I was actually going to recommend not baking brownies, and instead sending emails to their managers giving them kudos. Or bringing in a platter of brownies for the office or whatever. Or if your company has a formal kudos or feedback tool, use that to express your gratefulness.

  48. BB*

    I had a really rough day this week. I was coming up on a virtual job interview for a job I wasn’t particularly excited about, and I’ve been dealing with so much garbage right now that I couldn’t find the time to prepare for it. Then on the day of the interview, my child had medical problems, I got some really upsetting news about a career setback, and I had a headache that drove me to sleep for several hours. I completely forgot about the interview.

    When the recruiter called me, I couldn’t even bring myself to answer the phone. I just didn’t have the energy left to deal with it. I was humiliated. I wrote the recruiter an email saying I was sorry for missing the interview and I promised to never bother them again. They still wanted to talk but I couldn’t deal with it, and in any event I can’t imagine any scenario where they would still want to hire me after this fuck-up. Like, if I was an employer and a candidate didn’t show up, I would be livid. I’m so ashamed that I can’t even talk to them, much less ask them to give me a job.

    My wife says my reaction is extreme. I think I burned the bridge the second I was late, and the least-painful way to deal with it was to politely withdraw from consideration and never speak to them again. Either way, I just don’t have it in me to deal with this anymore.

    1. Juno*

      That sounds really challenging. I hope you have a good support system in place, and that you can get some help dealing with these extreme and difficult feelings. It doesn’t have to be this hard, I promise.

    2. ferrina*

      If a recruiter planned to call you at a certain time, didn’t call you, then emailed you saying that they had a health emergency, would you be mad? Or would you be sympathetic and just glad that they could reschedule?

      I suspect the latter. What you describe as having the day of is a “health emergency”, i.e., health conditions that had to be addressed immediately. You do not burn bridges with reasonable companies by having a health emergency. It’s reasonable to reach out, explain why you missed the call, and ask to reschedule.

      Your reaction is pretty severe. It sounds like this had a huge emotional impact on you and also drained you of all energy. Is this normal for you? If so, can I recommend that you talk to a doctor? Job hunting is usually draining, but not to this extent. You deserve support and you deserve to use every tool that is available to you.
      Good luck!

      1. Picard*

        This. Very much this. I know we’re not supposed to armchair diagnose but I think your reaction is really not within normal boundaries and you may want to talk to someone about this…

        Please reach back out to the recruiter and let them know you had a family medical issue and that you would like to talk to them…

    3. Don't Assume*

      A good company you would want to work for would be understanding that things happen and would not hold that against you.

      If they are a-holes about it, that tells you that you dodged a bullet.

      I would take the risk of contacting the recruiter and being honest, say you had a health issue that prevented you from calling in advance of the interview and then felt bad about any disruption to their schedule that it caused.

      I have known people who had similar things happen (or got in an accident, or could not get on an elevator and tried to sprint up 12 flights of stairs, or….) and good employers will work with you so you have a chance to present your best foot forward.

      The worst that can happen is you are right where you are now.

    4. Disco Janet*

      It sounds like you’re self sabotaging here – you’re rejecting them, but viewing it as a rejection of you. And talking super negatively about yourself! I hope you can find a way to be kinder to yourself/cut yourself from slack.

    5. Hen in a Windstorm*

      First, I’m sorry you had a rough time. I can really empathize with a bunch of stuff happening at once and not having the spoons to cope. But this is not irrecoverable!

      1. You’re saying the recruiter has *literally* contacted you twice because they want to talk to you. But instead of hearing that, you have convinced yourself they never want to talk to you again. Do you think they’re lying to you? Do you believe they waste their professional time contacting people they want nothing to do with?

      2. Would you really be livid if a candidate no-showed? Or are you imagining that they are livid with you? Because “livid”, “ashamed”, and “humiliated” are all really big, over the top emotions. I assume most hiring managers would be mildly annoyed and move on with their day. Why do you picture it being high drama?

      Try to put this in perspective: nobody died; nobody was physically injured; nobody went hungry due to your actions. You suffered a series of unfortunately-timed events and had a normal reaction to them. You somewhat inconvenienced someone. So what? These things happen all the time, all over the world.

      If your assumptions were true, the recruiter would never have contacted you again. Give yourself some compassion here: you went through a hard thing and did the best you could. Now you can try again! Give yourself the opportunity to fix things.

      (Final point: if you didn’t have it in you to deal with it, you wouldn’t be posting here. You totally have it in you. You can do it!)

      1. Viette*

        Completely agree! “I’m so ashamed….the least-painful way to deal with it was to politely withdraw from consideration and never speak to them again.” This sentence says A LOT. The OP is opting out, because of shame/self-loathing, because they don’t want the responsibility of having to salvage this, because they don’t have the energy to proceed and so are telling themselves proceeding is simply impossible — I don’t know exactly why.

        The recruiter is calling, trying to fix this! OP is convincing themselves they burned a bridge and that the ONLY option is to cancel everything and bail.

        Basically, if OP wanted to pursue the job further, the opening is there. They don’t want to do that, maybe for one of the above reasons like shame and exhaustion. So think about why pursuing it is so painful! What is going to happen that they cannot deal with? And more importantly, how can they get the skills/energy to be able to deal with it, now or next time?

    6. RagingADHD*

      That’s a shame. You were suddenly taken ill, and most people would understand that and feel it was a perfectly valid reason.

      This was recoverable and may still be, if you want.

      Your reaction sounds very extreme, and I hope you have a good healthcare team who can help you.

    7. Maggie*

      Honestly when candidates don’t show up I barely even give it more than a passing thought, I’ve literally never been livid or even mad about missing candidates or my favorite the people who ask what company I’m calling from lol. If you couldn’t deal, you couldn’t deal and chose to withdraw. So that’s fair if that’s what you want. But honestly if I candidate said their child had a medical emergency and asked if they could try again I would literally just like let them? I guess I agree with your wife that it’s pretty extreme!

  49. History MA*

    Is it stupid to get a Masters just for kicks and giggles?

    It wouldn’t be for another 2-3 years, as I need a full time job before I can do anything else and there’s other personal stuff I need to take care of too.

    But I want to get something I’m passionate about—history—and I like school and I miss it, and I’m still a little peeved about my last year being during a pandemic. Most people tell me to get a MLIS—I am currently working in libraries—and on a logical level I agree. And tbh I don’t know if a career in history is something that’s gonna happen for various reasons. And I’m okay with that, and happy to just volunteer at museums. I’m sorta at a point where I’ll take just about any job that will hire me, so long as I can go home and actually have days off for once in my got-damned life.

    Idk, some people in my life tell me it’s silly and some think well why tf not. I’m just tired all the time and don’t know what to do, and maybe this little MA would fill the academic void in my heart. (My BA years were, uh, not typical.)

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      If you can afford it, go for it. There’s definitely a masters degree I’d get if it didn’t come with a 60K price tag.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Not stupid! I got my Masters because I wanted to do it and also prove I could do it (lots of backstory there). If you can afford it, want it, and it would make you happy, then why not? :)

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Cost is the only reason I’m not pursuing a PhD in the History of Medicine. But I’m also meandering my way through an associate’s degree in paralegal studies (after two BS and two master’s degrees) for no real reason other than “I’m bad at not being in school”. So I’m on team why TF not, if you can afford the time and financial outlays :)

    4. Ginger Pet Lady*

      I’d do it if I could afford to without going into debt. We’re currently helping our kids do college so that’s not the case, but maybe someday…

    5. Cordelia*

      I’m doing a part-time MSc alongside my full-time job, mainly to prove to myself that my brain still works, and because it’s interesting to me, not because it will help my career in any way. I’m really glad I’m doing it, and I would make the same decision again. Just a warning though, from what you’re saying – “so long as I can go home and actually have days off for once in my got-damned life.” and “I’m just tired all the time” (sorry, I know there is a way to quote, I just don’t know how!) …….if you are working and doing a Masters, from my experience you will not have days off and you will be tired all the time! I’m not saying don’t do it, but it’s a big commitment.

    6. Go for it!*

      Definitely not stupid. I am currently getting an MS in Veterinary Sciences for fun – professionally I have an MBA and have worked in a variety of marketing functions for over 20 years.
      I missed the intellectual stimulation of school.
      Basically I am doing it for myself and I am loving it. Don’t get an MLIS if you don’t want one, study what makes you happy if it’s for yourself.
      If it’s an investment in a career, it might be a different discussion.

    7. OtterB*

      If you wanted to connect the Masters to your library work, then you could think in the direction of archives or records management. But there’s no reason in the world you have to. As others have said, if you can afford the time and cost, then go for it. Wanting to do it is reason enough.

    8. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I literally woke up one day and decided to go to grad school. It was just something I had to do for myself and I loved it. I don’t miss the papers and homework but I soooo miss formal learning. It cost and the fact that what I do in no way needs a PhD, I’d probably do that too.

    9. Anonosaurus*

      If you have the energy and cash, go for it. You don’t have to justify yourself. I’m doing a MSc for the sheer interest in the subject and because I need to feed my brain.

    10. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t think it’s stupid to get a Masters for kicks and giggles, but I would have very realistic expectations of what/where it will get you. If you truly just want it, because you want it, go for it! Just be aware it may not assist you professionally and if you are okay with that, then that’s great. There are dual MLIS/History programs (Uni of Maryland used to have one) and so that might be an option as well. I will warn you, a lot of people may tell you that you can get into Archives with a History MA and as someone who hires in Archives, I would rather hire an MLIS than a History MA any day of the week. I know many of my colleagues agree, so just a heads up on that myth which is pretty common. I get contacted by History grads looking for a “path” into Archives and my answer is nearly always to go get an MLIS.

      1. OtterB*

        Ha. Okay, I perpetuated this myth up above. I have worked with several people who had moved from history graduate studies into organizational records management, but that is probably long enough ago that things are different now.

    11. Girasol*

      If you go for an advanced degree on the side, some employers will be impressed by your initiative and character even if the degree isn’t relevant to the job. But if there’s a risk that it would make you “overqualified,” you can leave it off your resume and no one will ever know. You get to have it both ways.

    12. Asenath*

      Why not? I started taking about a course a semester in a subject that interested me, realized that by taking some additional courses that were closely related I would be very close to a master’s degree, and talked to the program about switching from casual and very part time student to one officially registered for a program. I am now well on my way to a master’s that I do not need for any sensible reason, like work, but in a subject which I enjoy studying. I look on it as a kind of weird hobby. Win-win!

    13. Pop*

      How much debt would you have to take on? What would your debt payment a month look like after you graduate? My life has a lot more flexibility and honestly less stress than some of my friends’ do because I skipped grad school (and the $50k of debt).

      1. Whynot*

        A history MA can be a wonderful experience and you may find other career directions or ones you can combine with libraries a part of it. During my MA (a long time ago) my department had a relationship with the state historical society nearby, and it offered a program in public history – which is essentially an umbrella term for “things you can do with history outside the classroom” and can include things like oral history, exhibition writing/design, public programming, editorial work, etc. I took the public history class my program offered, did a mini-internship as part of that, and successfully applied the following year for a graduate assistantship (yay, stipend and tuition remission!) on the historical society’s journal, which got me into scholarly editing/publishing; later on I worked in museums and archives, helped research and write exhibits, gave adult education workshops, and all sorts of fun things. Not the world’s most lucrative career, but definitely a creative and rewarding one.

        If you’re financially in a spot to pursue the MA, and you are happy going into it just because you love it, that’s reason enough on its own – no one can ever take your education away from you, and the things you learn become part of who you are. But it also might lead you in new career directions and help you gain work experience.

        If you do go for it, look for scholarship programs that might help you with funds and ask about what graduate assistantships might be available (often TA positions but there are sometimes other options). Look for which faculty you’d like to work with as your advisor and go meet with them – that relationship is a crucial one and you want an advisor that is a clear communicator and a good advocate for you as you move through the program, and they can point you to resources you might not know about.

        Good luck from a fellow history geek!

    14. Striped Sandwiches*

      I did a second masters essentially for fun and interest. It’s not related to my normal job but a side passion. I got a full scholarship so it didn’t cost me anything. I wouldn’t have done it if I had to pay. I was able to fit it in around my normal job and all the resources like books were provided online for free. I helped me get a new job too!

    15. Office Gumby*

      I did. I got an MSc in Astronomy, because I’ve loved it forever. Now I’m trying to get into a PhD program (in a topic closer to my chosen career) because of the same reason. Will it advance me in my career? Maybe. Dunno. Don’t care. I love the academic side of it, and don’t feel the need to justify it.

      Yeah, I have an academic void in my heart as well. If I can’t get into a PhD program, I might to for another Masters.

  50. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

    Low stakes idle question: Do the old “rules” about where in the building/physical space one sits equalling how important you are still apply in your org? I’m not sure how to word that better, but I just feel in this era of hot desking, hybrid work, work from home and “efficient use of space” that the rules of “top floor being for executives” and “corner office” or windows hierarchy is archaic and out. I bring this up because during the pandemic my org decided now was a good time to move everyone around and consolidate departments that — due to space issues in the past — were spread out over different floors or even different buildings, and also make one whole floor in my building as a hot desk space. As a result, I went from a windowless former storage closet on a lower floor to now the top floor, corner office of a multistory building. It’s a shared office by the way — I’ve shared an office for 15 years and we all got moved together. Other people make joking comments in the elevator or when they come to visit about “executive suite” of which I.am.really.not. The office itself is…regular…in my opinion; drop acoustic ceiling tiles with some that are stained or askew, typical fluorescent lights, industrial carpet squares that are glued down… it just happens to be a higher altitude.

    1. CTT*

      I think it’s a holdover of that idea for people in your org and it’s easy jokey-small talk while you’re in the elevator. Just make a joke back like “me and the [x number of] people who share it have finally made it to the top!”

      (fwiw, location = status is still a thing in some places, although it sounds like not in yours. The corner offices in my office are still reserved for more senior employees. We’re lucky to have really good views from almost every angle, but having TWO good views would be a perk for me!)

      1. Ope!*

        Seconding this. There’s maybe *some* level of it still being true – my supervisor definitely has a bigger and better lit office than I do, but I have an internal office with “fishbowl” windows and the team I supervise have big, external facing windows in their cubicles, which are all about the same size as my office – I get the “shaft” on this because I need a door that shuts with management convos I’m sure. So at the macro level for me – generally true – and the micro level of my team – less true

    2. Dragonfly7*

      Not at all, though the Grandboss is clearly sore about it. His most junior staff are in the biggest office with the window, but there are also 6 of us sharing it.

    3. Asenath*

      It is in one place. I still have unpleasant memories of a move in a former job in which someone I thought should have been more mature about the whole thing kicked up an incredible fuss for MONTHS about the fact that the size of his office and the lack of a window didn’t accord with his status. Ironically, in the end I, much the junior, got the disdained large office with no window.

  51. HoleeMolee!*

    A PSA to not use your work email for most personal things.

    Someone at work has been on leave for a long time (two years and counting) and I got permission to get access to their email inbox to look for missing invoices. Which I found.

    I also saw 100s of “XX has a sale!”, appointment reminders, INTERAC transfers, emails from their bank and all manner of not-work related stuff.

    Work email is Work Email, not a secondary personal one!

    1. Charlotte+Lucas*

      In general, I agree. But not on appointment reminders. I add my appointments to my work calendar, so that I have the time blocked off & don’t get caught up in work & forget to go.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Eh. I’ve been using mine as a secondary personal email for years. There’s nothing in the Personal folder that I’d be ashamed of anyone seeing though. Mostly just concert tickets and tax receipts and a few SFW memes.

    3. Fabulous*

      Agree, however, sometimes you have to blur lines when there are important non-work things that you need access to during the workday (think medical, school, or other time-sensitive emails) which may need to get routed to the work email, especially if certain personal URLs are blocked on the VPN (side-eye to my current employer…)

    4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Truly private/confidential things should absolutely not be sent to a work email but sales or newsletters or other “junk” mail is fine in my opinion; I get a ton of junk email from my own org, so turn-about is fair play. Maybe it’s also the nature of my job, but I get a ton of spam through vendors that are definitely work-related.

    5. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Good Reminder. Had a situation where an employee was let go. A few months later, he called me asking if I could forward the personal emails he had on the company computer to his personal email. 1. This caused all kinds of Compliance issues. 2. Technically, his personal emails on the company computer are property of the Company.
      After much back and forth (and compliance reading through all of his personal emails), we could only send him a few of his emails.

    6. Elle Woods*

      I agree. A few months ago, my former neighbor passed away very suddenly. He used his personal email for everything–banking, credit cards, utility bills, health care, student loans, etc. Since he was no longer an employee, his company deleted his account, leaving his wife with the additional burden of figuring out how to get access to their accounts. It’s been a nightmare.

    7. Chauncy Gardener*

      Oh my gosh, seconding this +1000. When we finally got rid of our old (incredibly toxic) office manager, I got access to her email and ALL it contained was one shopping notification after another, personal emails, all sorts of just… personal stuff. I was blown away. And she even had a personal email account! Just so, so unprofessional. And also explains why she is the ex office manager. Sheesh.

    8. beentheredonethat*

      Part of my new employee rant. I CAN see everything in your email and I DON’T want to know about the affair you are having when I was asked to check your email for a business reason. Seriously, I still trying to bleach my brain from some of the pics some people thought it was a GOOD idea to download on their work pc. Just sayin.

  52. ThirteenPlanets*

    I have a new boss who cannot make a deadline to save his life and I’m getting most of the blame as his executive assistant. He continually says he’ll do things and then just doesn’t, even when they have important consequences. His boss says I need to try harder to keep him in line but we talk almost every day and he still misses things by weeks. Does anyone have advice for this? My last boss was very on top of things so it is very different. Overall he is a kind person that I think has too much on his plate and bad time management, this isn’t a case where he’s doing nothing at all.

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      It sounds like your job isn’t your job. That is, your “job” is to manage someone you have no real control over. But you’re supposed to assist him, not manage him. His boss needs to be the one to “keep him in line”, not you.

      Unless this is a sudden change that might caused by RL stuff going on with your boss, then I’d say this isn’t going to get magically fixed. If he has too much on his plate, that’s something he needs to talk to his boss about.

      This may be fixable. It’s not on you to fix it. Because you can’t fix it.

      Also, if you’re a woman, this is VERY HEAVY on the “get a mom/wife to nag him to do his job” from your boss’s boss.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, no–you’re being held responsible for something over which you have no authority. This is a no-win if his bosses aren’t willing to take the reins.

      Is he someone whom you could tell outright that you’re getting in trouble for not “managing him better”? Or does he not know that you’re catching flak?

    3. Anonny*

      As his assistant, what alarms and reminders have you got access to? You’ve probably got his inbox and calendar, do you have ability to push meeting reminders to his desktop or phone? Zoom pops up 5 min before all my meetings to remind me, outlook has that ability as well. On really busy days I set my phone to alert through google calendar to remind me of tasks, (today the monthly reminder pay rent just popped up).

      I don’t think as an EA you can make him do his tasks that’s on him, and I would push back against his bosses boss on that. But in terms of like missing meetings you 100% could knock on the door and be like “Hi, that meeting is starting did you want to attend?”. You could also nudge tasks a little, like “the OSHA report is due Friday, do you want me to block off 3-4pm on Thursday’s calendar so that you aren’t disturbed while submitting?”

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yup. Nudging and systems.

        It’s also possible that he may be a concrete/ analog thinker who is trying unsuccessfully to use digital systems – or vice versa.

        I put one boss on a physical “tickler file” system that had a paper representation of all the things he needed to deal with, roughly in order of timeliness / urgency.

        The red folder was Immediate / Most Urgent, yellow was Action Due Soon, blue was things to sign off on or approve (no other action required), green was Reading (general FYI or industry info), and so forth.

        I couldn’t make him do the things, but for him it helped to have a physical item in his hands. The more involved version of this would be to set up an accordion file with date numbers and have the things to do each day in it. (I used that one myself).

        For people who do better with digital, you could do a similar thing with email folders or a task management program.

    4. Stoppin' by to chat*

      I would push back on whomever is telling you to stay on top of your boss. The issue is that their boss needs to manager them!

  53. Chrissimas*

    I just received an offer for an internal promotion today (yay!!!). I have the offer sheet with the proposed salary and I want to counter offer and hope to land about 10% higher although I’d be happy enough with a little less than that.

    My problem: I was a federal employee most of my life and have basically never negotiated before ESPECIALLY in an internal promotion when you’re negotiating with someone you know well. I also have no idea what anyone else in this role makes, all the research I tried to do outside the company is way lower than I already make. I’m moving roles to work with our largest corporate accounts and will also (eventually) be managing one person.

    So any scripts on how to phrase this? I have to get back to them so I either have to call or I might be able to put it in an email. I think what’s throwing me is what tone to take since it’s internal and I know my hiring manager so well (and I’m just very unsure whether what I was planning on asking for is reasonable).

    Also any and all moral support is appreciated – I’m horrible at self-promotion of any kind and I’m super nervous!

    1. Schmitt*

      Matter of fact & don’t undermine yourself!
      “Thanks for sending over the offer sheet, I’m super excited! Looking at the salary, could you do $Y?”

    2. Raboot*

      I found Alison’s podcast episode on salary negotiation super duper helpful and used it to negotiate for the first time in my life. The summary is, just ask, and then stop talking! I’ll put the link in a reply and it has a link to a transcript as well.

  54. Ella Minnow Pea*

    I manage a small staff who are all wonderful and I’ve always liked to give them a simple token of thanks now and then – for example, this time of year I might leave a small bunch of flowers picked from my garden along with a note that lets them know how much I appreciate them. Now that we’re all remote, it’s harder. I express email and verbal thanks but do you have any ideas for something more tangible I might be able to offer them?

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      Can you give them more time off, even informally, like leaving early on a Friday?

    2. OneTwoThree*

      Ask them! Give them a couple of ideas of what you are thinking about so it doesn’t feel so open-ended. For example, “As you know I appreciate everything you do for our team. In the past, I’ve tried to show how wonderful you are through small bunches of flowers and XX. Since we are virtual, I’m a bit stumped. I’ve thought about letting you start your weekends a bit earlier as the schedule allows (great idea rock and roll saved my shower) or x. Do you like either of those? Do you have another idea?

      These are my brainstorming ideas
      -skipping x duties for a day/week
      -working on work focused passion project
      -taking a day off to volunteer at an organization they support
      -casual Fridays
      -gift card for a coffee/ ice cream shop for a treat during their next 1:1

    3. ThatGirl*

      agree with rock and roll… let them be done early on a Friday or give them a free half-day off or something.

      1. Ella Minnow Pea*

        Thank you for the suggestions! In the past I’ve given extra time off but I’m looking for something that comes straight from me that I don’t have to get approved. The gift card idea is a really good one.

    4. AlexandrinaVictoria*

      My organization set up GrubHub accounts for all of us and put $15 toward a meal. It was a great surprise!

    5. Cordelia*

      if you have their addresses, you could send flowers with the appreciation note? I’d love it if my boss did that! I’d probably prefer that to a gift card, it seems more personal.

  55. Murfle*

    I need help providing advice for a friend. We’re both in our late 30s, but while I was able to get onto a corporate path, he never did. He never figured out what he wanted to do or what he was good at, so aside from a few minor jobs that involved helping prepare tax returns, he’s been working retail for years.

    All this time (about 15 years!!) he was also receiving financial support from his parents. However, his parents have recently told him that they can’t keep on supporting him anymore, and that they’re going to stop by the end of the year. So now he has 7 months or so to figure out what on earth he’s going to do.

    I can think of TONS of things he can do to get started, like contacting temp agencies, finding places to volunteer to get experience and make connections, revamping his resume, trying to find remote working jobs on LinkedIn and Indeed, and even reading a bunch of AAM posts. However, telling him all this at once is bound to overwhelm him, especially since I’ve got a good decade’s worth of experience in traditional corporate jobs and he doesn’t.

    What’s the best way for me to help? How do I encourage him without overwhelming him? He’s not a bad guy, just somewhat aimless, and also dealing with some health issues.

    (Apologies if this is a repeat post. I tried posting something similar a few minutes ago but I don’t think it stuck.)

    1. Ella Minnow Pea*

      This sounds like a case in which a career coach could really help. Could you do a little legwork on his behalf and recommend one to him?

      1. Murfle*

        No. He was talking to my husband, and my husband was wondering if there was a way I could help, since my background is more corporate than either of theirs.

    3. PollyQ*

      Give him what you think is the single best piece of advice (I like the temping idea), and let him know you’re available if he’d like more in-depth advice.

  56. WineNot*

    I wrote a few weeks ago asking for advice for a first-time manager, and for advice about a situation I am dealing with. My COO and President told me they were promoting me to manage my department, but hadn’t yet told my boss who was currently managing my department. I was concerned with how they were handling the situation and I can’t tell you how many times I asked when they were going to talk to him, but they just kept putting it off. They finally talked to him on Monday and it went just about as I imagined it would go. He was upset and took it pretty poorly. He called out of work the next day and when I spoke with him the following day, he was basically like “last time they told me to give up responsibilities to someone else, that person quit and I am still cleaning up their mess a year later”, which felt like he was waiting for me to fail at something I hadn’t even started. He said he knew it wasn’t my fault, but he was physically very shaken up about it. We have talked a couple times since then and I am hopeful that he will come around and support me.

    3 of the 4 people on my team who will now be reporting into me seem really excited and supportive. The 4th person will be a bit tougher to crack. I am very excited about the opportunity, though, and while I have literally lost sleep this week stressing about new and changing responsibilities and managing people, I am excited to get started. I plan to read books and take some seminars and take it day by day. Any advice is always recommended! Thanks for all the wisdom.

    1. Can't think of a funny name*

      Hopefully the boss will come around to being supportive and that gets 4th person on board. I was in a similar situation and the person that was the manager was upset (I’m told) but we gave her some time to get comfortable with it before telling the rest of the team and I think that helped…so maybe he just needs a little more time.

  57. Saraquill*

    I’m applying to more and more writing jobs. I have the experience and the samples, but many postings ask for a portfolio link. Does anyone know what a writer’s portfolio looks like, and how someone with piddling web design experience make one for cheap?

    1. Ella Minnow Pea*

      As someone with experience in the biz – it doesn’t need to be fancy, just neat and professional. Hiring managers just want to get a thorough picture of your skills and areas of expertise. Sites like Contently make it easy to set up (I have no affiliation other than as a satisfied user). I can’t remember if it is free but it certainly isn’t expensive.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Assuming the pieces are published, check out blakeatwood (dot) com (forwardslash) articles. He’s got a very clean, straightforward list of links grouped by topic. There’s no single standard for writer portfolios, but that’s a good example. No need to be flashy, just clear.

      If the samples are PDFs of print pieces, excerpts from books, or previously-published stuff that’s no longer available, you could put that into the samples section of your linkedin profile, or put them into a gallery or downloadable link on your blog.

      WordPress is free and easy to use for “piddlers,” though a bit intimidating for absolute newbies. If you don’t already have a domain, you can use one of the free wordpress.org pages. I know several established publishing-industry professionals who use them — though if you are looking for jobs that focus on online content, you should probably go ahead and buy your domain name.

  58. Discretionary TO*

    Hi – wondering if anyone has any experience/tips for working at a company that offers discretionary time off? This is a new concept to me.

    Background – I just joined a company that offers discretionary time off. I think the recruiter and I had a misunderstanding when I accepted the offer, so it was actually a surprise to me to find out that I don’t have a set amount of PTO days. According to HR and my manager, basically employees don’t have a designated amount of time off. You can take time off if you and your manager agree on it. Note they were very clear that this was NOT unlimited PTO – it was just up to your manager’s discretion.

    It’s really not my favorite arrangement because I don’t feel like I have any ownership of my time off (it actually feels like I have no PTO…) but I’m curious if other people have had this sort of arrangement and what their experience was like. Has anyone dealt with a company that did it this way? How did you approach the arrangement with your manager and make sure you still got a normal amount of time off?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’m confused as to what makes this different than the unlimited time off structure… Can you sit down with your boss during your first week and tell them how many days/weeks of PTO you expect to take over the course of the year, based on your history, and have a mutual understanding/agreement that, so long as you don’t go well over that number, your requests will be approved?

      1. ecnaseener*

        Yeah, this sounds like they just don’t want to call it “unlimited” so no one gets the wrong idea about it being a free-for-all. Getting manager approval might be totally informal with basically everything approved, or there might be stricter criteria – just like employers with a set PTO bank. I would just ask your manager what the guidelines are for using PTO and see what they say.

      2. Siege*

        I guess the main thing that sounds different to me is that I’ve worked for a person who would deny time off requests pretty capriciously. This sounds ripe for Discretionary TO to never get time off and not have the protection of a set bank, whether because of use it or lose or because they can prove they haven’t taken time off.

    2. Rana*

      We have this sort of arrangement – we switched from calling it “unlimited PTO” to “flexible PTO” a few years ago because it’s not really unlimited (you can’t take like 3 months off). What helps me is to ask what the average or expected amount of PTO is. For us, that’s about 3 weeks of vacation, in addition to whatever needed sick time. If you can get that kind of answer, then use that as your PTO bank in your mind.

      The nice thing about flexible/discretionary PTO is that you usually don’t have to worry about fitting in anything less than a full day into your mental PTO bank. So if you want to leave early on a Friday, don’t tally those hours as part of your expected 3 weeks. Without tracking, it gets completely forgotten (unless you’re doing it every week). And since there is no cap on sick time and no reasonable manager would deny it, you can do the same for appointments and don’t need to keep track of how many days you’re out if you get the flu or some such. The only time I’d be careful with sick leave is if you end up taking a lot of caretaking sick leave (i.e. because a child is sick). I wouldn’t want that to add up to more than about 2 weeks’ worth, probably, though I don’t keep track of that, it’s more a gut check thing.

      Is this is some ways more work than a regular PTO bank? Yes. You have to keep track of things yourself rather than using an HR system, and it is dependent on your/your manager’s mutual understanding of what is reasonable. But I find that on the whole I like it because you can end up taking more one-off days off that I probably would otherwise. What managers will really remember is your multi-day vacations, so as long as those stay under maybe 3 weeks, you should be fine to take several one-off days in addition.

      This also all depends on you having a reasonable manager. In companies that do this well, you should be able to go to HR if you feel too much of your PTO is getting denied. I’ve personally never had any pushback at all. As a manager myself now, I plan to track my employee’s PTO (only full days) to make sure it stays within what we recommend for the company, especially to encourage him to take more time if he hasn’t been!

    3. Filosofickle*

      My current org has a similar policy. They are clear it is not “unlimited” exactly but you are allowed to take what you need for typical vacation/sick + life events. Having heard that unlimited PTO often results in less time actually being taken off, I was pretty skeptical of this and have wondered how much time I’m REALLY allowed to take. But now that I have seen all my colleagues not only taking a week or so off at a time, but doing that every couple of months I’ve started to trust that it’s not some sort of trick. Based on the nature of our work I suspect longer trips (2 weeks or more) would be a very big ask that I could only do once every few years. I asked my boss to ballpark regular PTO, not including emergencies and Life Events, and we settled on what she thinks in her mind is a good amount so I’m thinking of that as my “PTO bank”. I will be tracking it for myself so that I push myself a bit to take it.

  59. Hunnybee*

    I’m wondering how many other job seekers out there are experiencing recruiters scheduling interviews and then not calling / logging in to the meeting they set up? So far I’m at 60% in my short time being back on the market. I suppose it’s just easier now to blow off the interview for remote workers, but it still gives me a bad impression.

    1. fhqwhgads*

      My company is seeing the opposite. More than 60% of candidates we scheduled for interviews in the past three months have no-showed, and not responded to follow-ups in case they needed to reschedule due to unforeseen circumstances. They apply. We schedule the interview. Then they disappear.

      1. Hunnybee*

        That’s so shocking to me! I wonder if it’s all some kind of weird passive aggression where people have changed their minds (on either side of the job table) and just have no idea how to be direct. But regardless, definitely not the right fit if they can’t show up to the interview for the job they applied for.

  60. Rara+Avis*

    One of my job responsibilities is to chaperone a week-long outdoor education trip. I am outdoorsy enough but not a camper, if that makes sense. We stay in cabins so it usually isn’t an issue, but I am having perimenopausal menstrual adventures, and my next cycle will definitely overlap with the trip. There’s a day or two when I really need access to a bathroom every two hours or so, and there are days on the trip when that won’t be possible. (Out on a hike or kayak a good chunk of the day.) I could talk to my female boss ahead of time; she organizes a lot of logistics for the trip but won’t actually be there. I really don’t want to have to talk to my male boss, who will be on the trip, or the naturalist in charge of my group, who is 100% likely to be young enough to be my child, and 75% likely to be male as well. A vague “I’m not feeling well — I need to stay in camp today” is unlikely to cut it in these Covid days. We are also desperately short of chaperones this year. I guess the root of the problem is that I really don’t want to have to explain all the gory details to anyone, so I’m tempted to cross my fingers and hope the heavy day comes the day before we leave. I’ve read a lot on AAM about how medical details should be able to be private — but it’s hard for me to figure out how I might ask for consideration in this specific situation without getting into details. Maybe I should just go to my female boss?

    1. quill*

      I wonder if it’s possible to remove the “I have a uterus” context and tell the male boss that you will have to stay out of the kayak trip due to a completely expected & scheduled but under control medical change? That could cover a variety of things.

    2. Ella Minnow Pea*

      Definitely talk to her in advance, but I don’t think you need to be specific. You can frame it as a “medical issue.” Are you under the care of a doctor who could provide a note of explanation without going into the details, if necessary?

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      “I think something I ate disagreed badly with me, I need to stay by the bathrooms today, can you cover the kayaks for me?” Implies nothing contagious, and gives you bathroom access. That was always my go-to with male bosses. If they have 25% of a clue they’ll know but it’s a polite way to handle it.

    4. Anonj*

      I’d probably talk to female boss in this situation. Also, during my peri menopausal adventures, I started using a menstrual cup, which you typically just need to empty twice a day. I found it much more convenient. If you haven’t tried one, there is a YouTube channel and website called “put a cup in it” with lots of info.

      1. Rara+Avis*

        No private bathrooms in this situation, and our policy is to treat all bodily fluids as biohazards, so washing a cup in a shared sink would be a big no-no.

        1. AnotherJen*

          You can clean it out with a bottle of water (the kind with semi-spray tops, like cycling bottles, work really well) and some TP. Just don’t drop it in the toilet/outhouse…

          The cup was also going to be my suggestion (because it can typically hold a fair bit) but you’d definitely 100% want to have some practice with it first.

    5. Hunnybee*

      And, you know, it has to be said — bears and periods don’t mix.

      It’s potentially a good excuse to get out of it.

  61. Anon Outrage*

    I’m very upset with my employer and management today. We’d had a COVID breakout among the staff and we were already short-handed and we are trying to run a major tourist attraction with less than half the staff we need.

    Someone said they were feeling “bad” but never went to the doctor. This went on for 3 weeks. Manager did not go by the “COVID policy” and instruct them to stay home and get a test. I guess they think COVID has disappeared. Finally, the feeling bad person went and were positive for COVID. Now, all of the unvaccinated staff have to stay quarantined at home for at least 5 days and if they do not have symptoms and get a negative test, they can come back next Tuesday. All the vaccinated staff have to wear masks and get tested for COVID.

    Also yesterday, the volunteer coordinator walked in 2 hours late, announced out loud so they whole office could hear that her daughter tested positive for COVID yesterday afternoon (Wed) but she tested negative that morning, was in a mask and was going to work 2 hours before coming home. Now management has decided that she, the volunteer coordinator, cannot attend the volunteer banquet tonight, nor can she attend the volunteer orientation that she set-up (her boss is going to fill in), but it’s perfectly ok for her to be here today.

    I just don’t know. Several coworkers and I have been in masks the whole time and force social distancing and people act like we are wrong for insisting on safety measures. All of us have either vulnerable family members or family member who are too young to be vaccinated or are vulnerable ourselves, but we have to work to make a living.

    1. Alice*

      I’m sorry. I hope that you are ok and same for your coworkers and family members. And I even hope that the volunteer coordinator and the manager and the unvaxxed staff are ok too, although I had to take a deep breath to remind myself that I ought to want everyone to be healthy. I don’t have any advice, just sympathy.
      Well, actually I do have advice — for the people who want to avoid passing on COVID at home if you do get it, maybe check your ventilation, make sure mechanical ventilation is running all the time (not just when the temperature gets above/below the set point), or open windows. You can build a Corsi-Rosenthal box to reduce the risk of household transmission if it turns out that you do get infected.

    2. Jax*

      I’m not sure why the volunteer coordinator can’t attend? (Unless she’s not vaccinated? Or is it because the event will involve eating/removing masks?) The CDC does not recommend quarantine for close contacts as long as the person is vaccinated and symptom-free.

      My daughter tested positive on Tuesday night–I’m vaccinated, boosted, symptom-free and KN-95 masked here at work. I’ve told everyone because I want to warn them to put a mask on before coming any closer to me. It’s difficult. I have no idea where my teen daughter picked it up (school? her job?) which just seems very frightening. COVID is still out there, and it feels like it’s picking up again, and no one seems to care! I canceled an appointment for an estimate for new carpeting and the installer just snorted, “COVID? Is that still a thing?”

      *head desk*

      1. Anon Outrage*

        There is food & mingling involved and they are afraid the volunteer coordinator in a mask will scare off volunteers is what I was told. We used to have 200+ volunteers and since we returned from the shut down, we’d have a hard time keeping volunteers. We are at 91 now and we expect lower numbers due to summer and some of volunteers taking over childcare for the parents, traveling, etc.

        Also, this is the fifth possible exposure she has had since the first of the year. Previously, she waited a few days to get tested but I think maybe she is out of vacation day or something?

        I had been doing ok for awhile but now people roll their eyes and laugh because some of us still insist on social distancing and masks. They don’t seem to care if my 9 month old nephew or my diabetic husband or my coworker with asthma get COVID because it’s not them.

    3. Alice*

      I hope your daughter gets better quickly.
      CDC doesn’t recommend quarantine for fully vaxxed and boosted close contacts, but it does say they should mask:
      “Wear a well-fitting mask for 10 full days any time you are around others inside your home or in public. Do not go to places where you are unable to wear a well-fitting mask.”
      So the coordinator is not going against guidance (assuming she is up to date with shots and she is masking at home too). But I am giving the manager the side-eye: if they think that this level is risk is not appropriate for the coordinator to be at the orientation, where she could presumably be masked, why is it an appropriate risk for her to come in to the office? Because volunteers can quit easily, while staff can’t?

      1. Anon Outrage*

        Yes, my point exactly! It’s too dangerous for her to go to the banquet or come do orientation but she’s fine to sit here in the office? I’m vaccinated, boosted, wear a mask and social distance, but she is so used to going unmasked I noticed her several times during the day walking around without her mask.

        I’m looking for a remote or hybrid position but I live in a place where that is very rare.

  62. Sharkzle*

    I have a freelance contract/agreement question: I’m a graphic designer and I work with a lot of architecture/landscape/interior design type firms. Often I’m asked to help put together a proposal for large, multi-million dollar, years long contracts. These proposal projects take a significant amount of prior knowledge, coordination (aka herding cats), and design while adhering to strict guidelines (IYKYK). My agreements and fees are typically just for the proposal itself and my involvement ends once I send the final files. Sometimes these firms win the contract, sometimes they don’t. What I’m wondering is if anyone has ever seen or heard of putting in a “winning” clause in their agreements where the contracting company would pay out a bonus of sorts. I know there are some firms that do this within their teams when they win a project, but would it be totally out of line to put this in my agreement and just be up front about it? In my mind this is akin to a royalty agreement of sorts but I’d love to hear if anyone has seen or done this or if it sounds bananas.

    1. S*

      I don’t think calling it royalties makes sense. It sounds like you’re thinking along the lines of lawyers who don’t get paid if they don’t win the case, but here you are asking for your normal rates plus a bonus (not x% of the grant when awarded, but no fees). Maybe you could do a bonus, but I’m unclear why you think you’re entitled to that? (Not in a personal way, but why it makes sense for you as a graphic designer/freelancer to get a bonus) Why not just raise your rates if you feel underpaid, or you feel like you bring something to the job that other graphic designers don’t?

      I mean, if you framed it as “these are my below market rates, if you get the grant I’ll get a bonus of x amount” I could see someone going for it (depending on the grants themselves), but it just seems convoluted to me. But I might be missing something!

      1. Sharkzle*

        You’re totally right about the rates, I should just raise them for this type of project. A little more background/clarification is that these are typically branded proposals for large parcels of land. I’m essentially So the companies that hire me are looking for a “mini-brand” to help them develop the story around their proposal. It creates a more unified presentation and I believe gives my clients a leg-up. It’s also a lot more work on my part! But yeah, I think having a couple of options for the proposals (branded vs not branded) would be better than a bonus and might incentivize my clients to go for the more branded ones anyway since that’s what keeps winning projects.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I think it would be very hard to draw a direct line from graphic design to winning an architecture, etc bid in order to justify a performance bonus.

      They aren’t giving the bid based on your work, but on the numbers and the design itself.

      If you were pitching an ad campaign, yes, because your design would be an integral part of the proposal. If you were doing the design work for the landscaping or interiors, same thing.

      But in this instance I’m not sure how your work would materially influence the client’s choice, beyond the general standard of making it look polished.

      1. Hunnybee*

        Agree — I actually think it’s interesting to consider a clause for pitch work! So many times freelancers are hired in to do pitch work and the agencies don’t always give credit for the design thinking / concepts / effort involved. Reading this made me think that, at the very least, it would be nice to put a clause in for freelancers to have names listed as part of the full creative team for the pitch work that led to the successful campaigns.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      May I ask what the purpose of doing this would be?

      From a layperson’s perspective, it seems like a convulted way to make increase your fees/rate, so I’m not clear why you wouldn’t just…increase your fees/rate.

  63. Groffington Thirdly*

    A few weeks ago, I posted that I was thinking of quitting my job, moving across the country, and restarting my education in an entirely new field. Thank you to everyone who responded to me with helpful advice! I really appreciated it. Ultimately, once my deep frustration with my current provincial government subsided a bit (I live in Ontario; if you know, you know), I re-examined my situation and my priorities, and decided maybe not to burn my entire life down in a fit of pique.

    I also learned that my workplace is willing to fund my further education as long as I keep working at the same time, so that’s a wonderful avenue opened to me! But I’m compelled to ask: has anyone ever taken that opportunity and later regretted it? If so, why?

    1. PX*

      Its not regret exactly, but be very careful about eligibility clauses for further education! They often come with a lot of hoops/requirements around staying in a position for X amount of years after (or paying back fees if you leave) – and that can mean you are stuck somewhere you would rather not be, causing…much regret!

      Otherwise, think carefully about what you want to do with the further education is usually the best advice. Ideally its something that allows you to move towards a specific goal (either in your current field, or outside it).

      1. Hlao-roo*

        I agree. I have a friend who paid for their own Master’s degree rather than using their workplace’s tuition assistance because they knew they did not want to stay at that workplace for the next two years (or whatever the time frame was). As it happened, they ended up leaving that job midway through their Master’s degree and getting a much better job.

  64. Stressed Out Slytherin*

    This is going to be realllly long, sorry!)

    I recently went from being the sole team member on a project that pre-pandemic had 4 people on it to having a direct report (lets call her J). Part of the reason J was brought on was to take over a section of the project that needs a lot of babysitting that I just don’t have time for anymore. The skills that she bought from her previous job should have well prepared her for this but it’s been a struggle. During training she didn’t take notes or really absorb much of the processes she will need to follow and now that she’s working independently she keeps trying to change the process to what she thinks is less complicated and the client isn’t responding well. All of this information is to provide a setting for the real problem I am having.

    She is a very sensitive person. During her training I noticed that she got very upset over the littlest things. For an example, our boss mentioned that J could come into the office to meet the client that she would be working with and she got very upset because she thought she’d have to come into the office everyday. It took me 2 hours that day to convince her that she assumed wrong with her telling me that she didn’t trust us not to “pull a bait and switch” over her job duties. It was her 2nd day of training. I should have asked for her to be fired that day but I thought she was just over reacting due to the stress of starting a new job. I have spent the last 4 weeks having to devote a not small amount of time to managing her emotions.

    It all came to a head yesterday when our boss and another team member M asked for a quick meeting to clarify some forms that J sent out. Our wider team has these kind of meetings all the time. It’s easier to clarify things over a call than send several emails. Since J had taken it upon herself to recreate the normal forms into a spreadsheet, M was also asking, very nicely for her not to do that since the client needs the actual form and not a spread sheet. Everyone was nice and respectful. I want to stress that this was a very normal call where everyone was extremely polite and professional. I had to run out to the dentist after the call so wasn’t there for the rest of the day.

    When I checked in with J this morning she was extremely emotional and upset about the call the day before. She said she’d never been so disrespected in her life and that she couldn’t sleep the night before at all. I was so confused because I can not stress enough how normal the call the day before had been. Apparently she was upset because M didn’t speak to her directly, and instead had myself and our boss on the call as well. I tried to explain that it wasn’t done to disrespect her in anyway but she was just adamant that it was malicious and done to deliberately slight her.

    I’m honestly at the end of my rope. I’m not great at managing other people’s emotions in my personal life, and having to do it in my professional life for the last four weeks has been very draining. I feel like a toddler who’s been handed a Fabre egg. Complicating things, is she just bought a house and says that she needs this job in order to keep her house. I don’t want to get her fired and cause her to be homeless…but I don’t know how to effectively manage her. I need advise on how to manage someone this sensitive or maybe a reality check on my own attitude? IDK maybe I’m the problem here.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Well, one, it’s not at all on you to help her keep her house. It’s nice of you to think about that, but it’s irrelevant to everything else. It’s on her to behave in a manner that allows her to keep a job, and thus keep the house.

      1. Ella Minnow Pea*

        Her telling you she needs the job to keep her house is manipulation, pure and simple. It sounds like she’s struggling on a deeper level, but that’s not your responsibility to handle. I’d meet with her (in the presence of HR, if necessary) and make clear that part of her job – heck, any job – entails accepting and responding to feedback in a professional way, and that you need to have confidence in her ability to cope with run-of-the-mill misunderstandings and unexpected scenarios that can and do happen.

      2. Jora Malli*

        I agree with Dust Bunny, your job is to manage the work she’s doing on the project, not her finances or her feelings.

        Have you talked to your own supervisor about what’s going on? How much do they know about the difficulties you’re having with J? If you haven’t been completely open and honest with them, then it’s definitely time to do that. J was hired to take work off your plate and instead has put a whole lot of extra work on, and I think it’s probably time to admit she’s not the right person for the job and decide what the next steps are.

        1. Stressed Out Slytherin*

          I have been keeping my supervisor up to date since the original freakout on her second day. J always asks me not to tell her though. I wanted to respect her wishes, but felt that this was something our boss needed to know (at the time I thought she wouldn’t be back for training day #3).

          After reading the advise here I worked out a plan with my boss for how to go forward. Next week I’ll have a conversation with J after she’s had the weekend to gather herself and set firm boundaries on how her outburst aren’t professional. If the behaviour continues, we will have another conversation with our boss, and then with HR if we need to.

          I’ve been so overworked on this project for so long that I desperately wanted her to work out. I think that’s why I’ve been trying to hard to triage this thing…but it’s just not working anymore.

          1. Dust Bunny*

            No, she doesn’t have the option of having this particular wish respected. It’s a performance issue. You’re not tattling on her because of a personality conflict–she’s messing with your forms and procedures and not taking feedback.

          2. Dust Bunny*

            And it’s not less work if it means you’re working harder to manage an unreasonable employee instead of actually doing the job.

            1. Stressed Out Slytherin*

              All very true. This last week has been particularly brutal since it’s the first week she was expected to work independently. I’ve never been so exhausted from dealing with another person. She thinks the whole process that I’ve handed over is more complicated than it needs to be and stupid. I’ve tried to explain why things are done this way in every way that I can think to explain it but she still says she’s confused and doesn’t want to do the work the way I’ve presented it.

              I’ve trained several people on our wider team who work on different projects. I used to teach college and English as a second language to kindergarteners. I’ve never had this much trouble training anyone in my life.

              1. Jax*

                My experience with managing difficult employees is that just when I’m hitting my breaking point–they are, too! I’ve had a couple surprise me by handing resignations right as I was working with HR to pull them in for an official meeting.

                If it’s painful for you, it’s painful for J. My advice is to shut the behavior down by holding her accountable to the standards of the company. In the words of my toughest manager, “No one wants to be called in to yet another meeting to be told how much they are sucking!” Instead of trying to excuse or ignore the irritating behaviors, pull her in for a door-shut-have-a-seat-across-from-my-desk discussion about what she did wrong and what needs to change moving forward. It will either inspire her to change, or it will speed up the inevitable end.

                I hate the idea of “managing people out” and I’m not advocating that. I fully support holding people accountable, and clearly/kindly/directly tell them what they need to do to succeed. I’m always empathetic and considerate, but I’m also not afraid to ask, “Given everything we’ve talked about, and your feelings about the role, do you think this job is a good fit for you?”

              2. Observer*

                I’ve tried to explain why things are done this way in every way that I can think to explain it but she still says she’s confused and doesn’t want to do the work the way I’ve presented it.

                Well, it’s way past time to stop explaining. TELL her that this is the way it needs to be done, and if she wants to keep the job, this is how it has to be done. And any changes she makes WILL be considered insubordination and a serious performance problem.

          3. Observer*

            I have been keeping my supervisor up to date since the original freakout on her second day. J always asks me not to tell her though. I wanted to respect her wishes, but felt that this was something our boss needed to know

            Your feeling that your supervisor needed to know was right on. The fact that she’s “asking” you not to tell? That’s a problem right there. Please let your supervisor this.

            I’m glad you’re working with your supervisor on this. I get how frustrating this is, but I’m glad you’re moving forward. If she can’t get it together, you will be better off being able to find a better match.

      3. KateM*

        Even if she can’t keep the house, why does it mean she will be homeless? She can buy a smaller house/apartment or rent. It isn’t the only place in the world where she can live!

        1. Stressed Out Slytherin*

          The situation is complicated. She lost her original house to a weather related catastrophe last year and had to start over in a new city. They just signed papers last week and started construction on her new house. I know the last few years have been rough for her and I didn’t want to add to that, I guess.

          But you are correct, her housing problems really aren’t mine. If she was so concerned about her house, wouldn’t see be acting more professional at work?

    2. TessNYC*

      Sorry to tell you this but whenever I have encountered this type of paranoid, combative and somewhat delusional employee, it never got any better. It is their personality, and their personality won’t change. You need to keep a record of everything going on, because she won’t last.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        This is my inclination. I might be overly cynical, but I’ve yet to encounter someone like this with whom I could get a toe in the door to a better attitude and less of a victim mindset.

      2. Stressed Out Slytherin*

        Yes, I know…I’ve never encountered someone like this who worked out either but I’ve been so overworked on this project for the last year that I was desperate for some help. I tried to triage the situation for much longer than I should have. I now have a plan worked out with our boss to set firm expectations on professionalism starting next week. If there are no improvements then I’ll get HR involved and start the process of firing her.

      3. The New Wanderer*

        This report sounds exhausting and manipulative! She doesn’t like the work (which she doesn’t really understand), tried to change it and didn’t like being corrected on the problems it caused, throws meltdowns to you but doesn’t want your boss to know how badly she’s handling the situation, and plays on your sympathy to put up with her or she’ll [possibly] lose her house.

        It is VERY MUCH on her to follow the training, do the work, and keep her head down if she doesn’t want to lose the job. A person who’s truly invested in keeping their house would do this. Instead, she wants you to care more about keeping her than she cares about doing the work. Your plan to set clear boundaries and expectations (in a PIP?) followed by firing if necessary is exactly right.

    3. Observer*

      I’m honestly at the end of my rope. I’m not great at managing other people’s emotions in my personal life, and having to do it in my professional life for the last four weeks has been very draining.

      I can imagine. Stop managing her emotions.

      If you do probation, you might want to end her employment.

      Complicating things, is she just bought a house and says that she needs this job in order to keep her house.

      I hate to say this because it genuinely stinks, but you need to pretend that you never heard that.

      Like I said, stop managing her emotions and hand that task back to her. Also, document what’s going on. It may also be time to loop in your manager / ask HR for advice. Not to do anything – YET. Just to get some feedback, possibly advice and to keep them in the loop if you do have to fire her.

      When she accuses you (or anyone else) of lying, call her on it. “I can’t trust you to not pull a bait and switch” is exactly that. Similar comments need to stopped. They are deeply offensive and have no place in a functional workplace. I mean, if someone is actually lying that’s different. But she threw an accusation and doubled down on it with no justification. That is NOT ok, and not on you to “manage”.

      When she gets bent out of shape by normal processes, tell her ONCE what the normal process is, and that you are not going to discuss it any further. If she insists, don’t argue. Just point out that the implications are that you either lying or unaware of what’s going on, and you are not going to entertain either notion – and then END THE DISCUSSION. If she flips out, cries, yell, etc. tell her that she needs to get herself under control, and if she needs to leave for a while to do that that’s fine. But this behavior is unacceptable.

      When she tries to make changes to processes, just tell her to stop. Don’t discuss it with her. You can *briefly* explain why it has to be the way it is, but that’s it. The explanation is not an opening for discussion, but a transmission of facts to enable her to do her job. And again, don’t allow her to force the conversation.

      If she can’t get a grip, I think you are going to need to have a big picture conversation, and move towards firing. Either that will enable and motivate her to get a handle on this behavior, in which case all is well. And if that doesn’t work, the sooner you get started on the process, the better.

    4. PollyQ*

      Long story short, you’re almost certainly going to need to cut her loose. She’s not doing her job well, and she’s taking feedback extraordinarily badly. If she’s still on some kind of probation, I’d let her go now. If not, start whatever formal process your company has (warnings, PIPs, whatever) for managing someone out. If you do go the PIP route, make sure you include taking feedback well as part of it.

      And that bit about losing her house? That doesn’t make her special. Almost everyone who works has housing expenses, often ones that take the lion’s share of our salary.

    5. SnappinTerrapin*

      J needs to decide whether she is willing to do this job as you have defined it for her. The consequences of that decision are entirely her responsibility.

    6. Stoppin' by to chat*

      I would remove emotions as much as possible. This person is recreating existing processes without confirming that it is actually needed, and getting stakeholder sign-off! They were hired to perform a specific task, and that is not happening. Absolutely work with your mgmt team to set clear expectations with J, and then let them know if changes are not made in x amount of time, they will be let go. I don’t know if you can say that or who can, but someone needs to. The fact that you know as much about their emotions and home life as you do is part of the problem. Of course no one wants to see someone else upset! But you are not this person’s therapist, and it’s okay to steer conversations with J back to the work at hand. That sounds so stressful for you, and I hope you’ll make it clear to your mgmt how much extra stress this is adding for you if you haven’t already.

  65. KateM*

    Last week in open thread I asked about a weird e-mail I had received Friday evening that seemed to hurry me into sending my data so I could be moved from being an intern to being an employee (in more than a month’s time), and I created a security ticket. After a weekend of exchanging e-mails with security (and feeling much like the time I found a wallet and had to write an explanation what and how and so on), I was contacted Monday morning by the person who wrote the e-mail (in another channel) asking why did I report her, and security telling me that the e-mail had been legit and closing the ticket. So I felt very stupid.
    Except when I had next catch-up with my mentor, it turned out he didn’t know anything at all about this, and so my doubts were again back. Although he did find out through his own channels as well that it is all legit and I will be hired, I still was left rather down, TBH. In my internship time, I have done basically only intern exercises and only my mentor would know whether I am worth to be hired or not, so it feels really weird that he wasn’t consulted about it – unless he has somehow praised me up to those who decided to hire me, but I don’t think I’m doing so well. I guess I felt a bit like “do I really want to work for people who would hire ME”, ha.
    But in the end, I’m more happy than embarrased that I was suspicious, because I feel much better about having a HR person possibly telling eneryone the funny story about a suspicious intern than I’d feel about my mentor having come in on Monday and finding out that over weekend, I had arranged to get myself hired behind his back.

    1. quill*

      Way better to be the suspicious / conscientious intern than the intern who invited in the company’s new virus problem.

    2. PX*

      I remember your post and you definitely did the right thing! And the fact that they contacted you asking why you reported them is honestly a bit odd to me – every company I’ve worked for would MUCH rather you report an innocent email than have you click something/share something you shouldnt – so please dont feel stupid about it. I would have gone back with a lot of questions about why was I getting this when I had “no idea” it was coming but perhaps thats overkill…

      Anyway, congrats on the position and hope it works out well for you!

        1. SnappinTerrapin*

          You did the right thing. The person who asked why you reported your suspicions needs to be trained in basic information security.

    3. Pam Adams*

      My Dean sent Amazon gift cards to all of the staff on ‘Administrative Professionals Day.” There was an immediate flurry on Teams of people being afraid to open them in case it was a scam.

      Better safe than sorry!

  66. quill*

    Very open ended question but I was just at an interview where they said I was “0ne of their most articulate candidates.” What do I do with that information?

    For context, this would be local government / utilities & resource management.

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      I’m not sure what you mean by what do you do with it.

      They gave you a compliment that you’re well-spoken. It doesn’t mean anything in the grand scheme of hiring. It might be a quality they’re looking for in the final candidate or there might be another quality they value more.

      1. quill*

        I guess I just feel like I might be slightly underqualified and worrying that they think more of my experience because I’m well spoken?

        I’m in the sciences so I feel like I get that a lot, when they want a communicator and a narrow subject matter expert, but when push comes to shove I’m a generalist.

        1. Ella Minnow Pea*

          I think you’re overthinking it. Sounds to me like it was a compliment and nothing more.

        2. ecnaseener*

          Articulate = good communicator, but I don’t see what it has to do with narrow vs generalist.

          1. quill*

            Mostly there are not a lot of mid level jobs in my field, so I worry that I don’t have enough depth of knowledge in it – I know about a variety of stuff, but what if they want a SME on llama wool protein structures when I am only someone who has broadly studied protein structures of fur?

    2. rock and roll saved my shower*

      Be flattered? I once worked with an intern who was so incredibly articulate, spoke so well, like, clearly she’d done some kind of acting or public speaking or some kind of training and it really really showed.

      I am terrible at speaking, so I was very impressed.

    3. PollyQ*

      Preen a little? The only reason to be leery of the “articulate” compliment is if you’re a racial minority, since there’s often an unspoken “not like the rest of [group].” And being able to speak well IS a legit qualification for many jobs.

      1. IT Manager*

        This is an interesting nuance, there was a thread a few weeks back about this issue.

        In this case, being praised as the most articulate *of the specific candidate pool* makes it clear that the comparison isn’t against some stereotyped demographic group. So it’s a good example of when it ISNT a problem!

  67. Llama Wrangler*

    I am a finalist for a job and unfortunately haven’t been in touch with one of my references since she served as my reference when I started this job four years ago. I did see she had left her last position and left our shared city. I now have an employer requesting references. (The process moved very quickly after seeming like it wasn’t going anywhere so I hadn’t reached out earlier.)

    I emailed her on Monday about serving as a reference and I didn’t get a response. Does it seem unreasonable to call her? Or should I send a follow up email? I have other references, but she supervised my work in the role that is most similar to the one I am a finalist for

    1. irene adler*

      Call. Explain that circumstances are such that you need to get back to the employer pronto as to your list of refs.

  68. Scott*

    A video posted by YouTuber CGP Gray last year is called Weekend Wednesday. In it he discusses the benefits of splitting your weekend by moving your first day off to Wednesday. So essentially you work two days on, take a day off, then work three days, and take another day off.

    I’m curious what the AAM commentariat thinks of this idea.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Everyone who has ever worked retail ever already has this schedule sometimes. I assume anyway, since I very rarely had two days off in a row in the five or six years I had retail jobs. And it SUCKS. Two days off isn’t even enough time to recover from a week of work, one day is even worse.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Agreed with Amber. I remember working these types of schedules during my burger flipping days and back then I was fine with it because my job was a straightforward food service job where you left everything at work plus I was a teenager/college kid back then so you bounced back with no issue. I shudder to thing about doing that now with my workload. I do love the idea of a Wednesday off in terms of a 4 day work week. Grind hard for 10-12 hours on Mon/Tues, take Wednesday off and back at it Thu/Fri.

    2. quill*

      This really depends on if you can both get life admin done in one day AND rest. Wednesday is awfully convenient for life admin like doctor’s appointments, grocery shopping, and calling your dentist, but there are definite non-benefits to having to do all your work of living and attempting to have a social life within a single day.

      Probably works better for people who don’t have a job that takes up all their juice and also don’t do much of the work of living for themselves.

      1. Charlotte+Lucas*

        When I worked somewhere that let you do occasional 4 day weeks of 10-hour days, I always asked for Wednesday off. BUT I got a full weekend, too. I loved it because you work 2 days, get a day off, work 2 days, then get your weekend. Also, since requests to work that schedule were approved based on seniority, it was easier to get that schedule as a newer employee. Most people wanted a long weekend.

    3. Sloanicota*

      From past retail jobs I found it sucked to not to get two consecutive days off compared to two non-consecutive days off. If my manager insisted I do it, I would want one half-day following the Wednesday off to make up for it – they really are not equivalent IMO. This schedule also seems hard on parents, particularly single parents, who now have to come up with a Saturday daycare option because their schedules no longer synch with their kids’. A schedule like this was also hard on my sister’s marriage although she enjoyed a day to run errands and catch up on household admin stuff.

    4. ecnaseener*

      Yeah, this is the wrong direction for my preference. I’m usually fine working 5 days in a row, but I wish weekends were 3 days. (Who wants to campaign for an 8-day week with me lol?) One for rest, one for chores, one for fun.

    6. Eff Walsingham*

      In retail I had schedules like that, but without consistency. Like, your days off could be *any* days of the week, maybe 50% of the time non-consecutive, and generally *not* Saturday or Sunday (except when you requested it specifically *and* beat everyone else to it). Because “those are our busy times”. This is one of my top ten reasons to not go back to retail.

      I’ve had a couple of jobs with a regular Sunday – Monday ‘weekend’, and that was pretty sweet! One day for chilling, alone or with friends, one day to do errands when it wasn’t busy.

    7. Interesting*

      I had a schedule like this at a job in my thirties. I chose it, it was like having a weekend every two days instead of waiting five days til Saturday. I loved it. As I got older and into more stressful jobs, however, I needed two consecutive days off to recharge before Mondays.

  69. Gnome*

    My company has official core hours that are 9:30-3:30 and allows start times from 6:30. Most folks aren’t even that strict since COVID started.
    My new manager set a weekly team meeting from 4-5 on Mondays. Would anyone else find that annoying?

    I try to work 6:30-3:00 and then pick my kids up and be able to spend time with them or run errands, but this schedule means I have to log back on. I can’t run errands or spend quality time with my kids in the morning, so I just end up with a weird days where I take a long useless lunch (too many meetings to get errands done during the day most weeks).

    Looking for confirmation that this is annoying and I’m not crazy that end of day meetings like this are less than ideal, especially when they aren’t particularly work focused and half the meeting could be an email and a quarter is unnecessary.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would be incredibly annoyed! Can you push back and ask that mandatory team meetings be scheduled during company core hours?

    2. Ella Minnow Pea*

      That is annoying and I sympathize (my husband has a standing work meeting at 5:30 on Friday afternoons – who does that?!). Can you plus others on your team push back? There’s power in numbers.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’d push back in a very matter of fact way: “Hey, I work 6:30 to 3:00, and our core hours are 9:30 to 3:30 – could you reschedule that meeting to be within core hours? Thanks!”

      It sounds like you’re leaving before core hours are up, so I don’t know if you want to push it too far there, but really, core hours means that meetings start and end in those time ranges.

      2. Gnome*

        Yeah, they changed a rule a while back so our workdays got shorter but they didn’t adjust core hours to match, but as I said, it’s been really lax since COVID because everyone is juggling stuff (no bus drivers).

        I know we can’t do it early because we have a team member on the West coast and we are East. I just wanted confirmation that I’m not crazy before I push back. They won’t like it because of all the meetings earlier in the day, but they don’t actually need to go to all of those. I already suggested moving it to our on-site day, but no dice there.

        1. Charlotte+Lucas*

          Our core hours start at 9 am, & this year people keep scheduling meetings to start at 8:30 (this was never a Thing before). I cannot express how much this annoys me.

          So, as far as I’m concerned, you are Very Reasonable.

    4. River*

      Oooooh very late afternoon meetings can be a struggle. I feel like people’s mental capacity is smaller in the latter half of the day than the morning. End of the day meetings in my experience aren’t as productive had they been earlier. If the main points of a meeting can be explained in an email, then the meeting will just be wasting everyone’s time. I mean I guess an end of the day Monday meeting is better than end of the day Friday meeting. But still. I see you. I agree with you too. Very annoying and not worth it.

    5. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can you change your monday schedule so you can do errands/spend time with kids in the morning then instead? If they can’t move the meeting then at least you’re not working extra hours (630-3 rest of week, 830-5 Mondays? ) – or does that leave kids without pickup?

      West coast 9am is noon east coast. There should be more options than 4pm for this meeting….

      1. Gnome*

        Can’t do it in the mornings. It’s annoying, but not unworkable. Just .. really doesn’t make me want to stay. Particularly since the meetings would be better as emails with maybe a 15 minute biweekly stand-up meeting.

        There will be pushback. Just making sure I wasn’t just being picky first :)

    6. Camelid coordinator*

      Yes, it is annoying. I wonder if there is a way to suggest the meeting happen during core hours. You’d have more cover if the 4-5 timeframe was a problem for several people, not just you.

  70. anxious teacher*

    I posted a few weeks about balancing interviews when the jobs have very different timelines—basically, Job A was moving much faster than Job B, but Job B was the one I was more interested in. Well, as I predicted, it got a little messy: Job A offered me the job and were not super thrilled to wait while I closed out the process with Job B; Job B took absolutely forever to get back to me. Honestly, given how bad their communication was, I’m feeling less upset than I would have expected about being rejected for Job B; if this is the way things operate day-to-day, I’d find it wildly frustrating.

    ANYWAY, I accepted Job A! But now a new challenge has emerged. There’s currently an interim person in the role, who apparently applied for the permanent position and didn’t get it…but this person will be staying in the district for me to manage. Anybody have advice on managing someone in this situation? Things to do/avoid?

  71. Eff Walsingham*

    I have a question for anyone whose alma mater has rebranded.

    Just last week, my University announced its new name. As of last year it had announced that it would no longer be known as Bad Dude University due to the historical associations with that name. Some of us hadn’t been comfortable with the old name for decades, so we support the change. We may not be wild about the new name, but we’ll adjust.

    My question is: if you immediately started using the new name on your resume, did it cause any confusion or awkwardness during the interview process?

    My preference is to NOT use “New Name University (formerly Bad Dude University)” because… he was a really bad dude. Our country is going through a bit of a reckoning right now, and I feel that it’s important to be on the right side of history because marginalized people are involved, and intergenerational trauma. It’s not firsthand trauma for me, but I want to be very clear about where I stand. I don’t mind discussing the topic if it were to come up in an interview. In fact, if the response to the change was anything but supportive it would be at *least* a yellow flag for me, so that might be useful.

    I’m not deeply worried about this, even if the new name does sound like a bogus diploma mill! I figure that if it’s unfamiliar to someone looking at my resume, well, Google exists. Plus, I went to school a long time ago (Gen X). I’m already planning to drop my dates. I didn’t graduate, and the vast majority of my work life has had nothing to do with my program of study. So maybe I should just drop the Education section entirely?

    On the other hand, the odd juxtaposition of my program and my employment experience often comes up in interviews. It’s been a nice softball question, allowing me to talk about transferable skills.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      I appreciate your concern/antipathy but I’m not sure this is the place to make a political point. Just use “formerly Bad Dude University” for awhile. It’s formerly, which is the beginning of the process of the name passing out of use, so that ball is rolling. But logistically I don’t think you can force it without having to double back and explain it, anyway. It’s also not going to stretch on interminably–people get used to things like this pretty quickly and then you can drop it for good.

    2. kina lillet*

      If you’re really relying on the name brand of the school, I do think it’s fine to have “formerly Bad Dude U” parenthetically there. However, I think that the name brand thing is pretty limited unless it’s at Harvard level of recognition: there are always going to be people who don’t recognize the name of the school. So I also don’t think you’ll see a problem with adding the new name.

      1. Eff Walsingham*

        Yeah, even in my country, which has fewer Universities, it’s not a “Harvard”. I don’t think it adds much value. There are better schools for what I studied.

    3. After 33 years ...*

      Canadian academic here. I personally would only use the new name, for all the reasons you mentioned. For me, this goes beyond “politics as usual”.
      Perhaps in time, the new name will get shortened (or changed into letters, or something). Other schools and institutions in Canada will have to start facing the same issue. It’s good that the change was made.

      1. Ashley*

        I honestly would do New name (Formerly Old Name) because if they pull your transcript old name would show up.

      2. Eff Walsingham*

        Ah, a fellow Canadian is picking up what I’m putting down here! I didn’t want to be too obvious in this case, BUT….

        You’re right. It goes beyond politics. I think it’s different for Americans because their country is more polarized. One of the benefits of a multi party system is that it’s less invariable to strip the nuance out of an issue, and be all “Good Guy / Bad Guy” about it unless that’s really your jam. And yet I haven’t heard any defense, public or private, suggesting that Bad Dude was Okay Dude, and we should keep an educational institution named after him. Even back in the aughts, it was more like, blah blah Tradition, as opposed to Dear Old Dude.

        My aunt’s former school is looking at changing its name too! :)

        1. The New Wanderer*

          American here, and two of the schools I went to are named after prominent slave owners (one was the third president) and a third had a racist mascot until recently. :-(

          I think you’re fine to use the new name only on the resume. Even if you need to provide transcripts or background check info, you can note the old name then if needed.

    4. Dasein9*

      The parenthetical draws attention to the rebranding, which you seem to support. I’d urge you to use it, at least until the new name is as widely known as the old one was.

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      My school did a rebrand for different reasons. I just went with the new name on all my documents to avoid confusion. It wasn’t a well known school either way, so there’s that. But people generally asked me where it was and I could talk about it through that path. School info is a good ice breaker, whether the interviewer recognizes your school or not.

    6. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      I would vote for just using the new name. People who are familiar with the university are going to recognize both names, and people who aren’t can Google it, as they would have to do for the very small university I used to work at, and many other schools that they haven’t heard of for all sorts of reasons.

      1. Eff Walsingham*

        This sounds very sensible. Particularly as I am about to make the second of two long-distance moves to a place where it seems quite likely they’ll never have heard of it either way.

    7. Cj*

      What I was in college, it was (City) State University. Now it’s University of (State) – (City). I put the old name first, since that’s what’s on my diploma, and in ( ) put currently new name. But I didn’t have to worry about it being named after a bad dude.

      I think in your case, I would just put the new name since that’s who they would need to contact for transcripts or whatever.

    8. Pocket Mouse*

      Given your context, would your potential employers be well-versed in the name change too? If so, there may not be much confusion, though you can always mention that you’re not sure which name the paperwork will be under if it gets to the stage where they might be checking. Good luck, and well done to your alma mater!

    9. BRR*

      I would either only put the new name or put the new name and something like (renamed in 2022)

  72. Lara*

    My boss is having a 3 day “onsite team building” event next month now that Covid is “over”, so people from our other offices will be flying in for meetings at my home office. (I still work from home 90% of the time so ugh but at least I don’t have to fly). Some of them are new in the past 2 years, so I guess it will be nice to actually meet them. He sent out a note yesterday that a) our sister group which is about 20 people will by joining my group of about 10 at this event and b) we will be doing and discussing DiSC assessments in addition to discussing our current projects etc

    Any tips for getting the most out of this event/the DiSC assessment in particular? It seems like a(n unsafe) waste of time, but I want to have a positive outlook and take what I can out of having to be there

    1. Dancing Otter*

      I’ve done DISC several times. Your results can change depending on your mood when you take it, or at least mine did. It can be interesting, but don’t take it seriously, like a quiz in a magazine. I hope your boss isn’t a True Believer in it. Otherwise, as a topic of conversation, I don’t think it’s particularly unsafe. Just kind of psycho-babble.

      If you’re referring to 30 people in a conference room, yeah, that doesn’t feel very safe.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I “cheated” on the one I did. My boss at the time was a loon who would definitely use anything too outside of her preference/expectations against me. Not really hard to do if you have a halfway decent knowledge of modern psych/behavior theory.

    2. PollyQ*

      No advice, but I feel compelled to share the fact that the original DiSC was invented by William Mouton Marsden, who also created Wonder Woman and helped create the lie detector machine.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      I’ll say that it did help me understand (and put some effective social lubricant in with) people who are 100% one of the four types. Definitely a bit of stereotyping but I felt like it gave me some insights into how other people operate, and gave some other folks insight into how I operate. YMMV.

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        Agree with this. It has helped me understand bosses and coworkers who were heavily one type or the other

  73. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    UK University people: when do you cut your losses? I work for a UK university that is not doing well financially, and it looks like one of the cuts might be their tuition coverage offer (paraphrasing) which is one of the reasons I came to work here. I spoke to my manager about applying for a secondment in 2020, applied and didn’t get an interview last month, and I’m considering applying again this month, without telling her (because I realised just before deadline I was interested, and sincerely doubt I’ll get it, but you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take)

    Re the tuition coverage: I messed up with the deadline for this academic year, which is fine but annoying, but them cutting it really leaves a sour taste in my mouth, because I am, in fact, half way through a PT degree with them, and this is basically the only benefit I can use. They stopped doing PDRs during the pandemic, even though I asked for one, my job is boring as all hell and does not fill my time, and attempts to get more to do never fill it for very long. I got involvement in another department, and now they’re asking for a firm business case for me to get training on aspects of a job I am already doing which has legal consequences, when I feel like the business case should be “if I mess up on this we are in so much trouble”.

    I guess I’m just tired and demoralised and want to be told I can be, and I’m not a monster for looking elsewhere within the uni, even if my department might be fucked without me due to a recruitment freeze.

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      I am not a UK person and so don’t really understand your situation, but it sounds very frustrating!

    2. Weegie*

      I worked for a dysfunctional university that started randomly cutting items from its budget (such as staff training) while at the same time spending loads of their funds on ridiculous things that didn’t improve the output or quality of anything. To be honest, their allocation of funds was the least of it: management was awful and, like you, I didn’t have enough to do, my job kept changing, and my line manager didn’t respond well to requests for more work. After hanging on for longer than I should have, I got a better job elsewhere. In my experience, you have to look after your own best interests, so if another department wants you, and it’s better run, it sounds as though it would be a better option. Or even look for a different employer altogether! Your current department isn’t treating you well, and you’re allowed to leave.

  74. SloanGhost*

    How do you stay feeling human while job hunting?

    I just had a really awesome interview with a company I was really excited about, and was immediately invited back for the next round, which we scheduled on the spot. When I emailed my thank you note, the interviewer went cool on me and said she would “confirm” the already-scheduled interview by noon the following day. I touched base in the late afternoon on the following day (just wanted to know if I would be getting on [major freeway with crazy traffic] into [major city] and if so when!), and was told quite shortly that they could not schedule me and would let me know when they could.

    That was Monday. I have not heard a peep, even to touch base. I have not been in touch again since their last response was bordering on brusque. This person had previously been very warm and responsive. I have no idea what happened or what I did wrong.

    There is an outside chance that a real emergency came up and they are slammed–if I do hear from them, I will be happy and will answer warmly, but my gut says I’ve been ghosted.

    Between this and unemployment requiring that I drop my salary ask by 25% (leaving me at a whopping $12/hr and that bracket is almost all customer service, which has destroyed my mental health) and listings offering $10/hr for admins with 5 years of experience/highly specialized software skills/etc…

    I feel very demoralized and–not to be dramatic–dehumanized, and I’m really struggling to keep my head above water. I can’t afford to get therapy right now (I am not one of the people who is making more on unemployment).

    What are your strategies and stopgaps?

    1. Sloanicota*

      I hope you get lots of great responses to this! I just wanted to wave because I always find your posts when I use the find option to see mine by searching for the first few letters :D Hi!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      When I was job searching, these are the strategies I used:

      – My goal was to send out 2 applications per week. My reasoning was I should set a goal that I can control. I can’t control getting phone screens/interviews/offers, but I can control writing cover letters and completing applications.
      – I took two or three days a week where I did not focus on job-searching. I made sure to catch up and connect with family and friends, exercise, clean the house, etc. All the things that make me feel human.

      I had a job while I was job-searching, so these strategies might not work or might not be enough for you. Two more pieces of advice for your current situation:

      – Alison often says “the company won’t just forget to hire you if they want to hire you.” So I think you’re right to not reach back out to them. Do your best to convince yourself that you didn’t get this particular job and if they reach back out in the future it will be a pleasant surprise.
      – You say “my gut says I’ve been ghosted.” And maybe they are ghosting you. But it’s much more likely that something came up internally so hiring for that role fell to the back burner. If I’m reading your post correctly, it sounds like it hasn’t even been a week since you last heard from them. I would give them a week or two before I would consider a no follow-up “rude” or “ghosting.” Two weeks feels like an eternity for a candidate waiting to hear back from a company and feels like a blink of an eye to a hiring manager.

      Best of luck with your search!

      1. Cj*

        I think it’s probably something that came up internally, because if they didn’t want to move forward with you anymore they could have just told you that. There’s no reason for them you say they couldn’t schedule you this time would would let you know when they could, I could just outright reject you.

        1. SloanGhost*

          See, that would have been my conclusion except there was ALSO a major change in tone of communication–which I don’t equate to rudeness, and which if I’m using my optimism brain could be put down to stress. That’s what really threw me, though. THAT SAID, as I mentioned above, I’ll be delighted to hear from them if I do!

          I can also fully admit that I have pretty significant anxiety and I’m autistic as well, and silence doesn’t give me any data to extrapolate from so my brain kinda freaks out and spins its wheels. It doesn’t help that I’m on a pretty tight deadline before I’ll have to accept work well below my skill level and pay grade that also harms me, so it’s very hard to hang onto my patience under those circumstances.

        2. SloanGhost*

          I can also fully admit that I have pretty significant anxiety and I’m autistic as well, and silence doesn’t give me any data to extrapolate from so my brain kinda freaks out and spins its wheels. It doesn’t help that I’m on a pretty tight deadline before I’ll have to accept work well below my skill level and pay grade that also harms me, so it’s very hard to hang onto my patience under those circumstances.

          1. Eff Walsingham*

            I was thinking about it, and maybe the interview *was* great on both sides, but when your interviewer reported to whoever they report to, they were basically told “We don’t care what you told the candidate. First you have to interview this other bunch of people.” or something. And now your interviewer is bummed out, thinking “Why didn’t they tell me this earlier? Now I feel foolish because I have to walk back what I said.” and the sudden shift in tone is a result of their own dissatisfaction with how the search is being managed. I could absolutely see this happening in some companies and departments. The person you interviewed with was unclear on how much autonomy they had, and shouldn’t have tried to move you forward yet. Hopefully the situation will resolve in your favour but regardless, you still had that good interview. It really happened, so please don’t second guess it even though things got weird afterward.

            Regarding job searching strategies, I don’t have anything helpful really because I too find it draining, soul sucking, all of that. Crafting beautifully individualized cover letters that convince *me* that the job and I are perfect for each other… and then nothing back, not even ‘thanks but no thanks’. Hopefully you have a friend, spouse, or other furry mammal around sometimes to help provide emotional support while you do this.

      2. Pascall*

        Totally unrelated, but I’m reading Watership Down right now (I’ve seen the movie a zillion times and even enjoyed the Netflix Series) so JUST WANTED TO SAY that I love your name! I love Pipkin.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          Thanks! I haven’t seen any of the film/TV adaptations, but I have read the book about a zillion times :)

    3. Dragon*

      OT in that I wasn’t ghosted, but I was puzzled afterward that the potential employer had given me a second interview. I felt that every me-related rejection reason I could think of, should have eliminated me after round one.

      Eventually I realized the issue could’ve been salary. Their geographic area in my big city pays somewhat less than other parts of our metro area. This long-existing firm is small with low employee turnover, and the OA was a fairly recent hire after the previous one retired.

      To get me they would’ve had to offer the very top of the local salary range. Maybe afterward the management decided against offering that number straight out of the starting gate. And OA might not have known earlier that would be a factor.

  75. Lizy*

    Sharing documents question… We use Google docs, and for the most part, eh but ok I can live with it. But there are some documents/files I want to be able to NOT have on Google docs, or that don’t work in Google docs (like a mail-merge doc). What’s the easiest way to share it with coworkers? We have a Microsoft sharepoint, but that seems like I have to edit it online which … still presents the same problem, and I’m not sure if that works with PDFs. There’s no network drive, which is what I’ve always used in the past, and apparently Dropbox costs $$ now to share files. I’m stumped…

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Can you upload the docs to Google drive? If you have a docs account you should also have a drive account, and you can put any format you want in there – even/especially if it’s a format that can’t be processed online but only downloaded and opened on your desktop.

      1. Lizy*

        Yeah, but part of the problem with the PDFs is that I can’t upload the form with the form fields, unfortunately.

    2. Sandy*

      Would wetransfer work?

      (Also – I’m sure you know this, but just in case: somewhere along the ribbon when you open a word doc in sharepoint, there’s an ‘edit’ dropdown that should allow you to edit the document on desktop, rather than being stuck in the online version of word – https://i.stack.imgur.com/gJ6eJ.png)

      1. River*

        I like WeTransfer. For the most part it’s free if you’re sending less than 2GB worth of data. Anything over that, you have to pay for a plan. I don’t remember how much it is. But if it’s small documents it’s worth it.

    4. Generic Name*

      On SharePoint, you don’t have to edit in the pared down online version. There should be a spot near the top bar of the document to click on to “open in desktop app”. You can also download the document to edit locally and then upload.

      2. Snarky Snarkerson*

        Yes, and it works with PDFs. You can upload a PDf with form fields too. But you must download to fill them in or they won’t stay filled in.

  76. ABK*

    I’d like to retire within the next 3 – 5 years. I’ve been at my current position for over 10 years and am now thinking about looking for a less stressful position, closer to home, for the rest of my working life. Has anyone here done something similar? I’m not sure how to go about looking for a job in a different field at this point, and really don’t know what type of work to look for, but probably something administrative and/or clerical.
    Any thoughts will be appreciated.

    1. Gay Hamster in the Corporate Wheel*

      Hi ABK – before you jump ship, check with your HR / benefits! Some US companies (including the bank I work for) offer what they call “The Rule of 60”. In our case, if you have 10 years with the company and your age and length of service equal 60, you can stay on their medical plan. It is at full cost, but in our case the power of a large financial institution means it’s better/cheaper than getting our own plan, and I provide the medical for my husband too.
      It may be work staying for 3 years if that’s a consideration!

      1. ABK*

        Thanks for the info – I actually work in HR and my company doesn’t offer that but it’s good to know that some companies do!

      2. JelloStapler*

        Oh my gosh this would be amazing. We have a plan, but it’s 55 with 10+ years and I think 50 if it’s 20+?

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I run into this a decent amount with senior sales folks that don’t want the pressure of a VP role and would rather focus on being an individual contributor. It might be helpful to look at industries that are close to what you do know, but aren’t exactly in your field. Rightly or wrongly, if you’re say a digital marketing VP and you apply for a lower level digital marketing role, the company might look at you a bit sideways and wonder if they hired you for the role if you’d just accept the position or if you’d try to be a backseat leader and second-guess decisions. A good cover letter can help explain your reasonings behind a transition.

      1. ABK*

        Thanks, I really appreciate your advice. I think working on a cover letter may help me to work out what I’m looking for and what direction I want to go.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          Holy smokes, the spelling and grammar in my comment are appalling…thank you for being able to sort through my mumbo-jumbo!

    3. Hen in a Windstorm*

      In the FIRE (financial independence/retire early) community, they call this downshifting or sometimes BaristaFIRE, where you get a PT or lower stress/lower pay job to coast until you want to quit work entirely. You could consult, or you could work for a nonprofit, or you could turn a hobby into a job.

      You could also be like my MIL, who went from being a school district accountant to being a docent at an outdoor museum. She fully retired, but hates to “sit at home”, so tried a few gigs before settling on this one. She actually just got promoted in her PT job. She loves it because it’s so totally different than what she did before.

      1. ABK*

        Thank you! I’ve never heard that wording before! This is really helpful. Now I’m going to do a lot of google research!

    4. retired3*

      Did this. Just fell into something I can do part time and that is flexible, niche, and always changing/interesting. So maybe use your intuition/non logical brain some and just see what is in your peripheral vision. Mine came from a temp job my daughter had…she said, “you might enjoy doing this…” I’m almost 80 and am still doing this…when it is convenient for me (and it pays well). There’s a bigger world out there than we think…

  77. Commiserating*

    How much commiserating can I do with my direct reports about our VP before it hurts my reputation? I’ve always employed the ‘if you don’t have anything nice to say then don’t say anything’ mindset at work, and I don’t get involved in gossip. My direct reports and I have been back in the office lately and the conversation has been turning to how bad our VP is. They’ve told me stories of their interactions with him that I was unaware of that just reinforced how bad he is. We are a small department in a large company, and the reporting structure is the VP, me (I am my VP’s only direct report), three managers reporting to me, with each manager having one analyst.

    My managers have all said they know they can’t trust the VP, knows he reacts emotionally, doesn’t lead by example, stretches the truth and need to take what he says with a grain of salt or just ignore what he says entirely. They’ve said that when I’m out of the office and they need help with something they wait for me to return, unless it’s urgent and they have no choice but to go to VP. Now that we’re back in person (except the VP, he’s not coming back yet) I’m finding it’s easy to get into the gossipier side of talking about him and share my examples of his questionable & poor judgement with my managers. I think I’m a little starved for human interaction at this point in the pandemic since I normally would not get into gossip.

    VP is not malicious, just a terrible people person and does not think before he opens his mouth and says out-loud the things that should stay in his head. I routinely tell myself that it is not my job to train him how to be a VP.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I don’t think you should gossip about the VP at all. It could really haunt you. The managers are already showing lack of judgment in complaining vigorously to you about the VP, whose to say they won’t repeat what you say about the VP to others.

      You can validate the concerns “Yes that must be really frustrating -” and you can work on mitigation “what information can I make more accessible so next time I am out on leave you don’t have to ask VP for it?”. You could ask VP/higher ups about doing a 360 type feedback survey, but only if you think that’s worth spending time on and that they’d be responsive to it.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I have always closely watched managers when they disagree with their bosses. Even though I sometimes wanted them to complain with us, I have actually ended up having more respect for those who remain neutral and don’t give in to complaining/undermining, even when it’s arguably warranted. It’s a bit like divorced parents who refuse to badmouth the other parent to their kids, even when they are objectively being a jerk.

      2. DisneyChannelThis*

        Can’t edit to add, so second reply – the culture of bonding over pushing 1 person down (even a higher up) is really toxic in the long run. It encourages people to focus on complaints. It also sets you or whoever replaces VP if not you up for failure, as everyone is used to running them down. Pop culture (TV shows, movies, books, podcasts), sports (watching or playing), hobbies (craft projects, home improvement projects) are all way better things to bond over. You can complain/bash those without anyone getting caught in the cross fire and you can prevent the work=awful association that comes with bonding over complaining about work.

    2. Generic Name*

      Please do not commiserate with your staff on this! While it may feel good (for all of you) in the short term, as someone mentioned above, it really is a toxic dynamic, and can make morale worse. What you CAN do is acknowledge their concerns and let your staff know you support them. Find out how you can insulate your staff from crappy VP. Is the VP your boss? If not, would it be worthwhile to talk to your boss about your direct report’s concerns about VP?

    3. Eff Walsingham*

      Listen to everything, but say nothing! Pretend that all conversations are being recorded! Maybe there’s a mole! Be the star of your own spy movie, but stay aloof from gossip as much as you can.

      I do think you can commiserate in a limited way, but try to be solution oriented. And yes, try to think of ways you can firewall your reports.

      True confession: At my last job, I stopped following this very good advice. Many people were openly making book on if and when a certain awful manager would flame out. But by then, I was working in what an associate of mine calls “fire me mode”. I knew I wouldn’t be staying there long-term, because the organizational willingness to keep and promote that manager was just the most visible sign of some deep dysfunction.

      1. Commiserating*

        Thank you all for your feedback, this is exactly the gut check I was looking for! I will go back to my mindset of not gossiping or running down my VP (or anyone else for that matter) and focus on finding solutions and supporting my staff.

  78. Fistfuls of Sand*

    Does anyone have advice about giving negative feedback to your (very stressed) manager?

    My team are currently at 150% capacity for work, and to help matters, a third of our team (all very senior, including the head of our team) has been seconded away from us by our CEO to deal with another urgent thing for several months.

    This is all very stressful. It’s a problem, but it’s not *the* problem. The problem is that my manager has responded to the stress by crunching down and trying to control everything – which is burning all our goodwill, both within the team and within the company as a whole, that we need to get through this.

    As an example, she’s demanding team members carry out full root cause analysis for an error made in November by a different team that’s since been resolved. Formatting and typesetting for a report have become burningly critical and she’s questioning the professionalism of people who don’t share her hyperfocus on stylistic choices – including a new team member who has been with us for two weeks, has not had an opportunity to learn the rules for which shade of purple is the correct shade for the RAG report, and is starting to regret joining us already. She’s shutting down any and all discussion about what we need to do over the next year or so to in order to actually deliver on the teapot development business case we exist to deliver (even on the level of “we should tell Bob that Alice wants to do a company presentation about teapot design – that’s one of our KPIs and would be a really easy win for us”). Because she’s reacting to the stress by crunching down and trying to control everything, we have meetings about meetings about meetings (there were three separate review meetings about the same Gantt chart today, with overlapping attendance at each one) which means we have even less time to do all the work we need to do!

    I’m fairly insulated from a lot of this – I’m off in my own niche and my work doesn’t intersect with her to a great deal, but I can see how this is affecting the team. The team is fully remote and is mostly Europeans and East Africans – she’s our lone American, which is also its own wrinkle in the interpersonal communication tango we have going on.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Oh god I had an old boss like that. You have given me a flashback! A lot of things were problems but in her mind the MOST IMPORTANT problem was subject-verb agreement in informal writing situations hahaha. She used to edit other people’s emails and return them marked up! Clearly it was a way she was distracting herself from what was actually going on.

    2. PX*

      Yikes. Is she new? Honestly, if you had a good relationship with her boss – I would bring it up to them (as in “This is happening and is making a bad situation worse. Can you have a word with her?”)

      If she has generally been decent in the past and this is just a reaction to this particular scenario, I’d say speak with the team, and if you all agree – try and bring it up collectively (if you have team meetings, that would be a good time) and maybe frame it as “I think we need to be mindful of priorities given the current scenario, can we all align on what those should be and trying to minimise extraneous meetings/work until we have more capacity?”. Alternatively, if you’re worried about doing it in a group setting, maybe if everyone on the team pushes back with the same message/verbiage every time to unnecessary things she might get the hint?

      But that meetings about meetings thing irks me so much. I’d start just declining them if I could!

      1. Fistfuls of sand*

        Not new! She’s been in this particular team for 2-3 years more than I have, and has a lot of experience. It’s difficult – sometimes she’s one of the best managers I’ve had – she can be really insightful, responsive and supportive. On a purely personal level, my mental health has never been better (aided immensely by remote working arrangements). And then sometimes she’s a control-freak who cannot let the slightest thing go and will escalate wildly if she sees fit. It’s why I think it’s mostly a stress reaction, rather than an overall ‘style’, but she does have form in this area – the person who our new recruit replaced left because they didn’t want to put up with the formatting pedantry.

        In this mode, I think she’s likely to double down on her stuff being critical and everyone else’s priorities being extraneous. If people would just do what she wanted correctly, everything would be fine! But they don’t, so she has to tell them again! And again and again. I want to be able to tell her “in order to actually get x y and z completed on schedule, we may want to put less resources into the details. I know we don’t want to accept lower standards, but we can’t spend all our time making things perfect when we’re struggling to get them done at all” but I don’t know that she’d actually hear what I was saying.

        Unfortunately, her boss is the one who has been seconded out, and I don’t have a strong relationship with them – at least, not enough to go to them directly, especially as their schedule is so manic I’d be waiting a couple of weeks for a slot in their diary. I should sound out a couple of other team members specifically on approaching her about it together.

  79. Sunny*

    Hello everyone, any advice on how to motivate yourself when your work is open ended (no concrete deadlines)? I have milestones for my current project but it’s entirely self directed and I am not a self direction person. I like deadlines because even if I miss them I have something to work towards. Self-imposed deadlines don’t really work because I know they are not real.

    I’m also struggling with a negative major life event at the same time and it makes it really hard to focus. I kind of want work to distract me from those feelings, but then work is slow so it doesn’t distract me, and I spiral all day and get nothing done. So any help is appreciated :)

    1. Alice*

      I identify with this so hard. I never miss deadlines, but if it’s a long-term project where I’m left to my own devices I procrastinate like crazy. What’s helped me is to outline every step or task that has to be completed to finish the project project (including who I need to rope in to help with certain aspects and what specifically has to done for each individual task), which gives me a more concrete idea of the scope of the thing and how much work is going to need to be put in. Checking things off on the outline is always satisfying and it helps me to quantify my progress. Without a strict deadline it’s still hard to get motivated but having a little more structure to it helps.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Commit to giving your manager (or someone else who makes sense) regular updates, whether at a check-in meeting or just email. Tell them what you will get done by the time of the next update. You don’t have to ask them to *do* anything about it, it’s to make the deadlines/milestones real to you.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      One strategy might be to choose one thing you want to accomplish each day. There’s a balance of making the goal meaningful, but also very reasonable (i.e., you won’t have to crunch all day to squeak it in). Have a daily deadline of “the end of the day” might give that oomph behind what you choose. Also, it may be that the main hurdle is just getting started on *something*, and once you have some momentum it’ll be easier to continue on with the next piece, bite by bite until there’s something you can call done.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I have to commit to someone else that I will deliver the thing to them by a certain date.

      Then the shame will drive me.

      I don’t like managing myself by shame and panic, but nothing else really works. Fortunately, I have learned to sometimes get out ahead of things so I can pat myself on the back for beating the deadline. That’s much nicer.

      Either way, I have to make the deadline real by promising it to someone.

    5. SoCalKate*

      Very late to respond, but I have found the Pomodoro method to be very helpful in getting me through days where I’m not sure where to start or there’s nothing pressing.

      The basic idea is that you set a timer for 25 minutes and work until the timer goes off. Then you set a timer for five minutes and take a break. Once you have worked four times, take a fifteen minute break. Something about this method really helps me focus. I think it is because you’re tricking your brain. You aren’t working all day, it’s just twenty-five minutes!

  80. HannahS*

    Just want to say, since the article about zoom etiquette fails, “OMG land the PLANE” has become my favourite way of describing how I feel when faced with my current supervisor, who is long-winded, disorganized, very busy, and unable to effectively manage time–his own and everyone else’s. Many thanks to whoever wrote that in! Puts a smile on my face while steam is also coming out of my ears.

    1. Sloanicota*

      I use LAND THE PLANE for friends who ramble on their stories too. Sometimes, only in my head.

    2. Roy G. Biv*

      I relayed that one to my spouse, and it made him LOL as much as I did. We now privately refer to some friends and family members as “pilots” because they need to LAND THE PLANE.

  81. Econobiker*

    “Over employed” is now a “thing”!
    https://www.askamanager.org/2021/11/im-working-2-full-time-remote-jobs-is-this-unethical.html

    I found a reddit for “over employed” being specifically for remote workers especially within the software engineering industry. These characters are defining jobs as J1 ,J2, J3, etc and deliberately trying to work 2 or more jobs concurrently from home for the cash money green even if just partially successful. If they get found out and fired from one job their other 1 or 2 jobs keep up. Absolutely nothing ethical about it but the attitude seems to be “work like a dog now, retire early or pay off debt or buy a house and then scale back “.

    Wish I could do it but factory industry work on physical objects discourages being in two places at one time…

    1. Sloanicota*

      Our company has a rule about this in the employee handbook, and I’m surprised more places don’t. It states you have to get company approval for any outside employment and that it can’t represent either a real or perceived conflict of interest. In some ways I thought it was a bit of an overreach (one team member was a beer seller on weekends at the local stadium and had to get his boss involved for approval) but with the rise of remote work I think we’ll see more of it, as it costs the company nothing to implement.

      1. Eff Walsingham*

        My last in-person job allows other jobs (not on their time. It’s the sort of place you have to be fully present for safety as well as productivity). But the scuttlebutt is that it won’t be allowed to continue past a certain date. Welp, they’d better get serious about bringing wages up in line with industry norms. Otherwise, they’ll find they have a lot of vacancies, because people have this thing about wanting to be able to feed their families, etc.

    2. Alex*

      I’m curious–why do you find it unethical?

      If there are performance problems, they should be addressed as such, but why is it unethical to have two jobs if you in fact ARE able to keep up with the work?

      I have two jobs, although one of them is remote and the other is very much not. Is that also unethical?

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I think your employer would be upset if while on the clock at work you were working your remote job.

        This is not two PT jobs or one FT job and one PT on different schedules. It’s unethical to work two jobs simultaneiously when both companies think you’re working only for them during that time i.e. a normal 8 hour work day.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Do both employers know about both jobs? If not, I’d consider that unethical. If it’s all on the up-and-up, then you’re good.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Alison answered a question about this last year, and you might be interested in reading her response and the comments. Search for “I’m working 2 full-time remote jobs — is this unethical?” from November 3, 2021.

      I’ll put the link in a follow-up comment (it will take some time to get through moderation).

    4. pancakes*

      “These characters are defining jobs as J1 ,J2, J3, etc and deliberately trying to work 2 or more jobs concurrently . . .”

      I can certainly understand feeling that it isn’t fair you can’t try doing the same in your line of work, but I don’t see how it would be a benefit to anyone if people with multiple jobs were to simply call them all “my job” rather than specify which is which. And in a broader sense, the fact that there’s a small community of people you found talking about this online doesn’t mean it’s common or will endure. I read an article the other day about a guy who spent his retirement savings trying to start a cult around DMT on the same site you mention.

    5. Dragon*

      I heard that a successful 2nd job was the real reason some people want to stay 100% remote. They had a good double thing going that they couldn’t keep up from a regular workplace site.

  82. All Het Up About It*

    My team has a shared inbox where we respond to requests as a generic team member. Most of these requests are for college students, so we try and be friendly in our scripts. The thing we are running up against are when we are unable to fulfill the request, what’s a friendly send off that closes the loop?

    “Have a good day” works when we are able to help them, but it feels a little salt in the wound when we are basically telling them we don’t have what they want, but have a good day anyway. We’ve considered “Sorry we could not be of more help” but that feels too negative.

    Probably overthinking this, but why not toss out a low-stakes question this Friday?

    1. Alice*

      Maybe “Best of luck with your [llama search] [teapot convention] [basket-weaving certification]”?

    2. Eff Walsingham*

      “Sorry we couldn’t be of more help” doesn’t sound at all negative to me; but I’m Canadian. Even our buses are sorry! :)

  83. Bend & Snap*

    I know you’re supposed to act as if you didn’t get the job.

    But…how long is is too long for a company to get back to you when you apply? I’ve been applying all over the place after getting laid off a month ago, and crickets. I had a resume expert give feedback on my resume and have been using the revised version.

    Is it normal to hear nothing back from any applications? I’m freaking out and so discouraged.

    1. The Jobless Wonder*

      Unfortunately, it’s quite common. Worse is when you have at least a phone screen but hear nothing back. Solidarity, and my condolences — I’m dealing with the same thing right now.

    2. River*

      It’s not uncommon not to hear back from employers on whether you got selected or not for an interview. I’ve had to follow up with an employer after not hearing back from them a few weeks after I applied. It was until I called them and spoke with the hiring manager that I was able to set up an interview. As it turned out, the hiring manager had been very busy and did see my application and resume and was planning on calling me to come in to interview. On the plus side, the manager was pleased that I took the effort to follow-up. So time got away from them and I got the job after we interviewed! So I hope that you hear back from a good place of employment, maybe they’re just busy as well. Or maybe people have been sick or out of town or something else got in the way. Anyway, good luck to you out there!!

    3. Alex*

      Out of hundreds of applications that one might send out, you’ll probably only hear back at all from a handful, unless you have some extremely sought-after skill,

    4. Hlao-roo*

      In my most recent job search, I applied to about 15 jobs. I had phone screens with two companies (one of which eventually led to an offer, the other of which the recruiter and I mutually decided would not be a good fit). I received an automated rejection email from one other company, several weeks after I applied. I heard nothing at all from the rest.

      So my stats are:
      3/15 = 20% responded
      12/15 = 80% no response at all

  84. Eff Walsingham*

    I also have a second resume question.

    If a candidate has a background of jobs that show good work but hardly any advancement, yet they have quite a bit of high-level volunteer experience, how should that best be presented?

    A few times in my past I was asked if I would like to be put forward for a particular promotion, but I declined. I asked a couple of supervisors I was friends with, and they both said that they felt that the raise did not compensate for the increased responsibilities. One said in so many words that she regretted accepting the promotion, and the other still had a second job to make ends meet. At my last job my supervisor also had two jobs with different companies. It seems that in some industries here, the supervisor tends to be squeezed between management and staff. Everything they say and do is unpopular, they are held responsible when things go wrong even beyond their control, and their pay is barely more than that of the folks they supervise! So I don’t regret never having been a supervisor, *except* when it’s time to update my resume. So many different entry level positions! I’ve been a team lead, and had some temporary leadership assignments that went well, but it all looks a bit flat on paper.

    Conversely, I have been a volunteer, mostly for non-profit arts organizations, for decades now, mostly at board level. If I was Treasurer of the Cincinnati Paper Clip Orchestra for six years, Secretary of the inaugural season board of the Brass Lamp Festival, and have held three different positions on my building’s strata council, etc., etc., surely that must count for something? And yet I know (oh boy, do I know!) that many organizations struggle to fill these positions and will barely let you escape once they have you! I did a great job for the Paper Clip Orchestra, but all most of them know is that they still had money when I was done. And the guy who finally replaced me knew a lot about paper clips but little about accounting, so they might have foundered at least a bit once I finally stopped taking his phone calls.

    Mean to say, I know that volunteering is not the same as paid work. And yet, (a) it *is* work and (b) you are still responsible for the success of the enterprise and people are counting on you. So how much can I lean on the growth and success of the arts organizations while I was on the board in order to showcase my skills on my resume?

    Up to now I have been keeping my Volunteer Experience on the second page, with just one line for each position. I would love to do more with it! But will it hurt me to give it more space at the expense of jobs that rather resemble one another and didn’t lead to advancement?

    1. Sloanicota*

      This is hard because, as you say, there’s *such* a range of volunteering, and it’s hard to know from the outside how job-like it was or wasn’t. I think if you can focus on outcomes you were personally responsible for (“recruited 50 new donors” or report the number of hours – anything that is clear and definable and that is directly yours to claim – it’s definitely worth listing, particularly in the cover letter – although it’s never going to be quite equal to paid work in the resume. I don’t think just saying the org was successful while you volunteered there would convince me.

      1. Eff Walsingham*

        Well, I was thinking of including specifics such as X many shows over X length of season, with X% audience attendance, to show the scope of the work. And I can also point to numerous processes I added or streamlined as an administrator, that previously had been vaguely or not at all tracked. I am currently self-employed doing one of the things I had done as a volunteer before, for a different arts organization, so I will hopefully have at least one ‘real’ reference once this contract is completed.

    2. Pocket Mouse*

      For volunteer roles that were substantial enough to show real value relative to the jobs I apply for, I list them among my work experience (and still have one-liner rows for lower-level volunteer gigs).

  85. yogurt*

    Just want to vent. I had my exit interview this week with my Executive Director and the Chair of our Board (I work for a nonprofit) and the first question was, “Why are you leaving this position?” The truth is, I have about 150 reasons, but the top three I gave were: 1. Position has better hours/less work 2. They offered me way more money 3. It’s a program close to my heart.

    My board chair just immediately sighed when I said reasons 1 & 2 and stated, “Oh, you’re one of *those* people.” Then laughed like it was a joke, but it was obvious he meant it.

    Why are people like this? I don’t understand how people can be so disrespectful in regards to fair pay for fair labor. I stated in multiple places in my exit interview that I was wildly underpaid for the skills and expertise I bring to the table AND the amount of work I was expected to accomplish. Yet I’m looked down upon for leading primarily for better work/life balance and more money? Yeesh.

    1. Econobiker*

      The new generation employee attitude is “money mercenary”. Work is not family, work is not for a better world, work is to make money and good benefits- end of story. And work better allow a good “work life balance” or else these new generation folks bolt for a better opportunity…

      Your exit interview dudes better get ready to encounter more of “those people” because most people aren’t independently wealthy and able to “donate” time to non-profits or companies. They’ll soon find out about this…

      1. Sloanicota*

        Ha my boss went on a “kids these days” rant because she doesn’t like that her junior staff, who she pays a pittance in an expensive city, put up clear boundaries and refuse to be worked into the ground. Her feeling is that she ‘put in her dues’ and now the new generation refuses to. I bit my tongue but student debt, huge increases in rent/housing, and the skyrocketing cost of healthcare mean things are pretty different for someone trying to make it now vs when she was just starting out.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Absolutely, your boss doesn’t realize that the salaries the junior staff are getting to “pay their dues” are nowhere near what she was paid back in the day, adjusted for inflation.

        2. ArtK*

          The idea that “I had to suffer, so everyone else must suffer too” just perpetuates a bad world.

    2. Sloanicota*

      He was an ass. Put it out of your head as sour grapes and move on. A lot of Board Chairs are extremely wealthy and can afford to work for passion without having to make the sacrifices a small salary requires, so they know nothing. I’m sorry that happened on your exit.

    3. Alex*

      Oh, THOSE PEOPLE, who need MONEY to have a life. As opposed to people like him, who survive on deep breaths and unicorn farts? WTF.

    4. Unaccountably*

      Sounds like your board chair still thinks that people owe companies gratitude for deigning to employ them. I wish them luck in finding people still in the workforce who aren’t *those* people.

    5. Frankie Bernstein*

      Big eye roll to your board chair.

      I’ve been reading and thinking about this idea of passion and work a lot – specifically the widely agreed-upon notion that passion for your job is important AND that you should be willing to sacrifice pay and stability for it. (Erin Cech researched this topic and wrote a book called _The Trouble with Passion_. She’s also given a lot of interesting interviews.)

      In short, one of the things she asserts from her research (combined with existing research) is that passion for work can be used as the basis for exploiting folks. I wonder if that’s, in part, what’s happening here.

      I can relate – I did a graduate program in public health and my advisor and others acted like I was strange for wanting to make decisions about how to spend my time (and how much time to spend in the doctoral program) based on wanting future employment that, y’know, supported my ability to keep a roof over my head (and patch it up when it wears out!).

      I could go on about how academia is kind of a pyramid scheme, but I’ll leave it here and say I completely empathize! The vast majority of us work for money! If we didn’t, we might make different decisions. But that’s not reality.

    6. irene adler*

      Agree with the commenters thus far.
      In his eyes, making this statement means **he** is not at fault here for your leaving. Therefore, no burden on him to look into changing things to entice you to stay. Or checking in with you all along to learn ways to keep you a contented employee.

      This would be the case no matter what you cited as reasons for leaving.

    7. Workerbee*

      If your leadership/board is at all like the one at my nonprofit, their salaries are staggering. To fund them, apparently, to sit around in meetings and disparage others.

    8. Sandy*

      Oh, you’re one of /those/ people? Who expect to be treated fairly for their time and expertise? How unfortunate- we were hoping you’d put up with even more of our crap on the middle of a massive cost of living crisis without a squeak. Gosh, don’t you know how inconvenient this will be for me? And now I have to deflect responsibility for this situation too, or someone might ask me an awkward question about how I’m managing the long-term sustainability and resilience of the organisation.

    9. A. D. Kay*

      Sadly, this attitude is not limited to non-profits. I got a new manager after my small company (~50 people) was bought out. Last month, he expected me to take a pay cut of nearly 25% (!) and a demotion to a junior role–I’ve been in tech since 1996. I informed him, “I’m not a JUNIOR anything!” and bounced. Two weeks later, I accepted a senior role at a major tech firm, with a $5k pay increase. The guy might get a clue when his equally underpaid engineers bounce too.

  86. DisneyChannelThis*

    Any science bloggers out here? Couple questions…

    1. What would you have wanted to know before you started your blog?
    2. How much branding/promotion do you do? (Same name linked cross posts on twitter, facebook, etc)
    3. Do you allow open comments? Does the time on moderation pay off for engagement?

  87. Unaccountably*

    My newest report has been here for about six months and is still training on and learning a lot of our lab procedures. She’s doing well and is very fast on the uptake, though she’s new to the corporate work world. She has skills that are hard to hire for. I enjoy working with her and mentoring her.

    However, today at our 1:1 she told me that she’s considering applying to other open jobs in the company, and asked my advice as to which one she should apply for. This would leave my team brutally short-staffed, again, in an environment where our ability to recruit is hamstrung by the company’s insistence on butts in seats and unwillingness to pay relocation for even the most highly skilled positions.

    I understand that people leave. I’m willing to give her a good reference and ease the transition in any way I can. The problem at this point is twofold:

    (1) She hasn’t made up her mind whether she’s going to apply for the positions as an internal applicant or not; and

    (2) I don’t want to sink more resources and training time into someone who’s not going to be here to use them. This is a highly technical position. It takes longer to onboard people for it than she’s even worked here so far. If she’s planning to leave the position, even if she’s looking six months or a year ahead, I’d rather just start the hiring process now and transfer her as soon as we get a good replacement.

    This has put me in a really uncomfortable spot. As much as I like her, my responsibility isn’t toward her as a person; it’s toward my team and my department. On the other hand, I can’t really justify pushing her out because she’s *thinking* about applying for other jobs in the company. How do I balance these responsibilities and avoid being a jerk?

    1. Sloanicota*

      Wow, that’s a bold move on her part. At a previous org they were clear that they wanted us to stay for a year before they would consider internal transfers, which I thought seemed pretty reasonable. You could ask her what you could do that would help her feel better in this role and let her know it would be hard for you to provide an excellent reference for someone who only worked six months. I don’t think that’s terribly unkind but maybe others will disagree with me. You may feel like you don’t want to invest in someone who is only going to stay another six months too I guess but that’s a risk with any employee.

      1. Unaccountably*

        Yeah, you always run the risk. Even the most weirdly loyal employees can get hit by a bus. That’s not really the issue. The issue is that, now that I do know she’s actively considering leaving, how do I balance basic human decency with the difficulties of job search and training a new person?

        Between the nature of our work and leadership’s determination to buck the industry trends and refuse to consider entirely remote work, my entire company is understaffed by conservatively 20% and neither I nor anyone else below C-suite level can do anything about it. If she or anyone else leaves tomorrow it could be months of 60-hour work weeks and piled-up deadlines for me and the rest of my team before we can hire someone to replace her. Would I really be doing right by the rest of my team to just let that train come at them?

        I’ll definitely ask about helping her feel better in the role. Maybe that will help move the dial one way or another.

        1. rock and roll saved my shower*

          Recommend you reframe this in your mind from your employee hurting you by these choices, and reframe it into to your C-suite hurting you and everyone who works for you. It’s not your employee’s fault the job sucks. It’s your CEO’s.

          1. BadCultureFit*

            Well, sure, but it’s also not cool to take a role that requires a lot of customized onboarding and training and then announce in the middle of said training that you might be leaving.

            Dumb move in her part, and yes, it puts the OP on a bad spot.

            We have to take ownership of our own work mistakes, and this is a big one.

          2. Unaccountably*

            It’s actually kind of both. It’s not her fault that our C-suite can’t figure out that we’re competing with the entire planet for employees, but it also isn’t cool to wander away from a training-intensive job six months in without even a token effort to work whatever the issues are out with your manager. Unless your company is incredibly toxic, in which case vaya con dios; butI’ve worked for incredibly toxic companies. While ours has its issues, we’re not one.

        2. pancakes*

          “how do I balance basic human decency with the difficulties of job search and training a new person?”

          I don’t think this is really a balancing act. Basic human decency isn’t meant to go out the window when there are “difficulties” at work. If you feel you’re maybe going to snap at your employee because you know they’re considering a transfer that is something you urgently need to get a handle on. I’m not sure that’s what you’re saying, though. It seems to me that a large part of the reason you’d be facing months of 60-hour work weeks would be your employer’s rigidity, and that’s very much not your employee’s fault. Maybe you should consider seeing what else is out there, too.

          1. Unaccountably*

            I’m not going to snap at her, no. Am I going to be as friendly? No, probably not. But what I mean by “basic human decency” is that I don’t want to tell someone “Look, you need to leave this job so I can hire someone else,” because I think making people not have jobs anymore is not okay unless under pretty egregious circumstances.

            I’ve got my eyes open too, but this is a good place to be in my position other than that. Plus I’ve been here for fifteen years, have some excellent reports, and created tons of documentation, so even if I were in a hurry to leave my replacement could get up to speed pretty quickly.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      If one person being out leaves you “brutally short staffed” you need to be hiring/recruiting/cross-training anyway. You’ve no guarantee other employees aren’t about to leave (maternity/paternity, illness, caretaking family member, better job, partner new job in a diff state). Life happens!

      1. Unaccountably*

        Yes, we do need to be hiring. We can’t cross-train because we don’t have cross-trainable positions; our work requires a lot of education and background knowledge in an very specific and not widely used area, it’s hard to hire for, and when people leave it really screws us over because people with the skills we need don’t grow on trees. We’re already short-staffed and having a miserable time trying to hire people, and we can’t make other people want to go into our field.

        So, yes, life happens. Sometimes life happens in a way that is more difficult for some people to work around than others because resources are scarcer. If you have a job where people from other departments can be cross-trained into yours without violating regulations or industry best practices or causing client-deleting chaos, consider yourself fortunate to be playing the staffing game on the easy level.

        1. Tryna*

          Sounds like she’s right to try to get out of there then – I don’t blame her for wanting no more of that.

          1. Unaccountably*

            This is a PhD-level position. Approximately 3% of the US workforce has a PhD, period, let alone in my field. What you’re basically saying is that you don’t want to work in a highly specialized field. That’s fine for you, but other people make different choices. Every person who works in my field has, in fact, made a different choice.

            If it’s not for you, okay, but to be honest, saying “It sounds like it sucks to work in a job that requires highly specialized skills and I wouldn’t want to do it” is not helpful advice to someone who’s trying to navigate hiring people who, in fact, have highly specialized skills. I would kind of appreciate it if people would stop responding to my question as if it’s my fault that specialization and expertise exist.

            1. rock and roll saved my shower*

              It’s not “It sounds like it sucks to work in a job that requires highly specialized skills and I wouldn’t want to do it”

              It’s “It sounds like it sucks to work in a job that requires highly specialized skills and I wouldn’t want to do it under those conditions, for that pay.”

              It’s probably not the work itself that sucks. It’s the job.

              1. Unaccountably*

                The job is more or less the same as the job is everywhere, except when it’s worse. I described hiring for specified skills in a high-tech field where professionals are scarce; I didn’t say anything about the pay or the conditions other than that our hiring has suffered for not being able to work from home and we’re very understaffed, neither of which are uncommon conditions at this point.

                The comment is still unhelpful. What do you want me to do about the fact that not everyone can do this job? Or the fact that Tryna, personally, whom I’m pretty sure doesn’t qualify for it, wouldn’t want it? Or the fact that our leadership won’t let us work from home? I’m asking for advice about things I *can* do, not uninformed carping about how much my job sucks (which, uh, it doesn’t, but thanks.)

                1. Observer*

                  I described hiring for specified skills in a high-tech field where professionals are scarce; I didn’t say anything about the pay or the conditions other than that our hiring has suffered for not being able to work from home and we’re very understaffed, neither of which are uncommon conditions at this point.

                  You seem to be missing the point. There ARE things that your employer is doing that make the jobs in your company / department fall less appealing than they could be, despite the fact that you are already dealing with a tight labor market.

                  It’s not your fault. But it’s also something you need to factor in to your planning, both for this job and in general. Because whether she moves or stays, unless something changes (such as your company getting better at dealing with work flexibility or paying a premium for lacking that), you are going to be having this problem on an ongoing basis.

            2. Nesprin*

              I have my PhD and work in a scientific group with a number of other PhDs. No one in the world has the same research history/skillset I do, but at the same time, people quit, get sick, or get better offers, and part of succeeding in my position is making sure that work could continue without me.

              If you may be losing your specialist in the near future, is it possible to bring on junior folks (i.e. fresh bachelors holders) to pickup the routine work/cross train in her position? They won’t be able to do everything, but if someone can run the instruments, you can save your more senior people for interpretation/complex tasks. Is it possible to emphasize writing documentation and updating protocol/SOPs? Can anything that she does be automated to reduce her burden and make it easier if she leaves?

              1. Unaccountably*

                I’ve hired for something very much like this position at the BA level before, with a lot of success. If it turns out that my employee does leave, I’m definitely going to consider doing that again. They won’t be able to cover the whole job description but they’d be able to take a load off the rest of us.

                Part of the problem is that we’re still training her. There isn’t really anything she could document because she doesn’t have the background on why we do what we do in the way we do it. All we can do is automate as much as possible, so we’re going to work on that too.

                1. linger*

                  Presumably there are training procedures and resources that count as documentation for the job? If so, one thing Current Employee could add to that is feedback on what detail could be added to streamline the training for the next person (since [without significant change to budget or flexibility] this is likely to be a role with continued turnover, however undesirable that may be for the team).

    3. pancakes*

      The problem is three-fold, really. The third fold is being “hamstrung by the company’s insistence on butts in seats and unwillingness to pay relocation for even the most highly skilled positions.” I think any move towards balance here has to involve communicating this to higher-ups as best you can, because candidates are never not going to notice that rigidity, particularly well-educated candidates with other options, and particularly if your competitors are more flexible and less cheap.

      1. Unaccountably*

        I’m afraid you’re right. We’ve communicated it, but the constant mantra of “Collaboration! Water coolers! People who work from home can’t be trusted!” is going to sink us if it keeps up. Leadership has already made some moves in that direction – we got two wfh days over someone’s dead body, I’m sure – but we need to keep pushing the message.

    4. JustMyImagination*

      If you’re understaffed, lobby management to get a position posted. That way you’re in the process and hopefully you find someone to replace her if she does move on. If she doesn’t move on, well then you’re one less person understaffed.

      Also, try to find out why she wants to leave. Is she looking for remote, is the work not what she thought it was going to be, is the workload too stressful from the understaffing issues, can she just not stand living where your company is located? Maybe the reason is fixable, maybe it’s upper management problems or maybe it’s something completely beyond your control.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes I have read this thread three times and am unclear on why she’s looking, specifically, to move to another role. Is it just your dept that’s understaffed etc? Does she think people just transfer around all the time? (There was a letter like that one time).

        1. Unaccountably*

          I made the original post and I’M unclear on why she wants to move to another role. Maybe she’s heard that people only get promoted by leaving and going somewhere else? I don’t know. If she wants to, I’m not going to get in her way, but I need to know if she’s definitely planning to so I can start finding a replacement like I would for any other person who was leaving.

      2. Unaccountably*

        I’m going to talk to her about it at our next 1:1 and see if I can find out what’s going on. She says she enjoys her work and I’ve already made adjustments to her schedule and gotten her an office instead of a cubicle. Maybe she just has weird expectations? I don’t know. Hopefully I’ll find out.

  88. Pending Clearance*

    I was just offered a new position, kind of a change of field, but not completely and I will still be working closely with my current organization in the new role. The role will start in a few months or so but is contingent on me getting a highish level security clearance, which can take quite a while to come through. As such, I have been advised to not let anyone know, because if I should fail to obtain the required clearance it would look terrible for me and hurt my career (I see no reason why I should fail, my biggest transgression is a minor speeding ticket).
    However, I have really mixed feelings about how I should handle this situation with my current organization. I have quite a lot of coordinating responsibilities that I ideally would like to hand over in a professional manner. On the one hand I want to inform my manager, so they know and can make plans accordingly, even if it will stay on the down low maybe right up to shortly before I actually leave. On the other hand, the more people know (especially manager-level), the worse it would be for me if it fails. But I really do not like leaving people in the dark.
    So my question is: what would you do? Has anyone here been in a similar situation and how did you handle it?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      In a similar situation (waiting on a job offer for a position that would have some degree of oversight on my then-employer), I did tell my manager and two close colleagues, since they would be most impacted by my leaving. But I had good relationships and trusted them to keep it confidential, which they did. I also was not at risk of being pushed out so there was no risk of negative fallout if the job offer fell through. That ended up being a mixed blessing: due to delays with the offer, it ended up being almost four months from when I said I would probably be leaving which was far longer than I wanted it to drag out, but we had plenty of time for a smooth transfer. I think it was the right call for that situation.

      However, if I’d worked for some of my previous managers, I wouldn’t have said a word because I absolutely did not trust them. Also, if I’d worked with a different team or not been quite so central to the project, I wouldn’t have said anything ahead of time.

    2. PollyQ*

      I haven’t been in this situation, but I absolutely would not tell anyone I worked with. Just because there’s no reason the clearance should fail doesn’t mean there won’t be some kind of hiccup along the way. Document everything you do as thoroughly as possible, and when the new employer comes back to you maybe ask for an extra-long notice period, e.g., 3-4 weeks.

    3. Slightly Less Evil Bunny*

      Treat “contingent” as if it doesn’t really exist. (Particularly true for “contingent upon contract award” – don’t get me started about *that* one.)

      Seriously, you have no idea how long it will take or what kind of hiccups may happen. I’ve known a couple of people who took around a year to get a go-ahead for positions – and they had existing clearances.

    4. IT Manager*

      Please be aware you may fail to obtain a clearance through no action of your own – for example if a contact or relative turns up on investigations as risky or even just lacking enough documentation available, you may be rejected (without explanation). Please act as though failing to be approved is a real potential… Eg don’t share until it comes through.

      Good luck!

  89. Lilly Lolly Little Legs*

    I recently accepted a new role (one level up, 14% increase) but have not started yet – I am still finishing out my notice period. I know some people at the new company, and am excited by the role. This is usually the time I start closing out with other recruiters, change my statuses out of “open to work”, etc.

    However, I had outreach from a recruiter at a competitor for a role that is 1-2 levels above my new role, 24% increase, and willing to expedite their timeline to interview me since I have another offer in hand.

    Is it terrible to go through with the process? I think the likelihood of getting an offer is low to medium (the work is very much in my wheelhouse, but it’s a sizable level jump) and it can’t hurt to have the conversation, but interested in others’ opinions. Also curious to the commentariat’s thoughts around, if I somehow did get selected here, how bad it would be to renege on the original role – is it just part of doing business? Or extremely bad karma?

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      A lot will depend on how small your industry is. The bigger the industry, the less the blowback. Industry also matters as what you’re describing happens in IT pretty frequently. From a recruiter standpoint, I understand that this stuff happens and is the way things are nowadays but I wouldn’t be surprised if the company you’re bailing on (assuming it isn’t a giant F500 faceless megacorp) will be pretty chapped. I guess the question is, are willing to potentially sully your reputation over a couple thousand bucks?

      1. Lilly Lolly Little Legs*

        It’s a big industry in a big city (advertising/media, major metropolitan area), and a difference of about $15K, so not small change. I wouldn’t even be entertaining it for a smaller difference. The companies have about 5000 and 6000 US employees, respectively, so while not quite a faceless megacorp, a very large organization.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          Given that, might as well give it a rip then. I’d use your leverage to really dive deep during the new interview process then. Really make sure that any concerns you have get answered.

    2. alj1212*

      If you were interviewing for jobs A and B, accepted job A, and before starting that role, got an unexpected offer from job B, it’s not *that* big a deal to rescind your acceptance to job A, so long as you were properly apologetic. Things can fall apart between acceptance and start date but so long as a candidate has good reasons it doesn’t necessarily burn any bridges.

      But accepting job A, then deciding to apply to *new* jobs, like job B, when you haven’t even *started* job A, is pretty egregious. It’s so outside the norm that people are likely to remember you for it.

      You say job B is “willing to expedite their timeline to interview me since I have another offer in hand.” But you have no offer in hand. It stopped being an offer when you accepted it. Now, you have a mutual agreement with job A to start at X date for Y salary.

      It seems like proceeding runs the risk of job A and B realizing you’re acting in bad faith (accepted job A and then immediately started applying to job B; applied to job B by falsely claiming you haven’t accepted job A’s offer yet) and getting yourself dropped by *both* companies.

      1. Lilly Lolly Little Legs*

        That’s an interesting take! I didn’t think of answering the recruiter’s message as applying for the job. I’ve also always heard that offers are offers until you actually start – good to know that not everyone feels that way! This is why I asked – this perspective is incredibly, incredibly helpful.

    3. Can't think of a funny name*

      I would go for it. If you get an offer, Job A can make an offer to their 2nd choice. You don’t have to tell them you started interviewing after you accepted.

    4. linger*

      If the position is as much of a stretch as you indicate, it’s possibly worth going through the process to gain feedback about what you may still need to progress to that next step; but accepting an offer eventuating from it could be career-limiting (both because of the potential for bridge-burning by reneging on an accepted offer, and because of the potential for a stretch too far to set yourself up for failure).

      1. Lilly Lolly Little Legs*

        This was my thought as well – that it’s unlikely I’d be offered the role, but good to have the interview experience for this type of role.

        The title is a reach, but what they’ve described of the role is what I currently do – I am under-titled at my current company for what is being asked of the role.

  90. Becky*

    Has she expressed why she wants to move? Is there something in the role that is not matching her expectations/skills/experience/interests? Is there anything you can do to ameliorate those concerns? Six months is an awfully short amount of time to be looking to move which puts me off in the first place, but if you think she is worth it (and it sounds like you do) you may want to explore what you can do to make staying more attractive.

    You said she is new to corporate work–where has she worked before? Is she a new graduate and previous positions were shorter term/internship? As a mentor you would probably be doing her a favor to let her know that starting to look at 6 months is …not great. Though it does depend on why she is looking.

  91. Butwhy*

    So, my employer is chronically horribly understaffed. The workload is insane, and we’re all exempt and working 12 hours a day 6 days a week.
    People quit constantly.

    Management informed us of their solution that will keep the new hires from leaving in the first few weeks. They’re telling all of them that the workload is horrible and it makes a lot of people quit.

    Most of the new hires now are kids right out of college who don’t really understand the gravity of what they’re saying, and they’re scaring off anybody with any experience at all.

    They’re still leaving in a few weeks…

    1. Symphony Board member*

      It is past time to stop killing yourselves and all of you start working a normal and sustainable work week. Even if this is non-profit work supporting a vulnerable client base you cannot kill yourselves to save others.

      Your managers either have to drop half your workload or double the staff. Working permanent double time is insane.

      1. Butwhy*

        We’re insurance claims adjusters at one of the big big insurance companies. They can’t control the workload, only the number of adjusters.

        1. ArtK*

          As long as you keep working excessive hours and the work is getting done, they have no motivation for fixing the staffing levels.

        2. Symphony Board member*

          Figure out how many claims you can do in a normal workday, add maybe 10%, and when you hit that for a day log off and shut off your phone. When you hit 5x the number or hit 5PM on Friday you are done for the week. Log off, shut down and go home. You can’t keep your life running if you spend most of your waking hours yoked to a computer.

          Management doesn’t feel any pain so they have no incentive to hire enough people.

          Share the pain.

    2. Wordybird*

      I had this same thing happen to me when I was interviewing with a locally well-known marketing agency. I was interviewed by two people who seemed to be trying to one-up each other on how bad it was to work there: long hours, tight deadlines, surly clients. It was bizarre. I even asked point-blank what part of the job they enjoyed, and they both took 2+ minutes to respond. I laughed when I received their rejection email about my “not being a good fit at that time” as I wondered if they had wanted me to join in with the complaining?

      I will never understand businesses who operate that way.

    3. Can't think of a funny name*

      A department in my company tried being brutally honest about the workload and still had the same problem of the people quitting…b/c of the workload. It wasn’t within weeks but they keep having turnover around the 1-year mark. Will you be heartbroken if you got fired? If not, I’d do what others suggest and start working a “normal” schedule or at least a lot less hours than you are now and share the pain with management.

  92. WorkerBee*

    Looking for some advice on how to handle a situation at my new job. I work for Xena, who works for Hera. It has become clear the two of the are often not on the same page. Hera is cautious and a bit of a micromanager, and as a result is very slow to make decisions. Xena deals with this by just going around her and giving people on the team direction. (Fixing this dynamic is way above my paygrade.) But twice already Xena has told me to do things that I learned later Hera didn’t want done, and I’m afraid I’m going to be stuck in the middle. Other than asking, “Are you sure Hera wants me to do that?” whenever I get direction (which seems a little juvenile), I’m not sure how to handle this situation. Any suggestions?

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      Long term solution: leave.

      Short term solution: CYA e-mails to followup. Send to Xena, cc Hera. “Hi, Xena, as a follow up to our meeting this morning, here are the action items that I captured, all due on X date.”

      1. pancakes*

        Xena would likely feel very undermined by that. It might be practical, idk, but that seems like basically waving a flag that says “I don’t trust Xena to have been above board on this.”

        1. rock and roll saved my shower*

          Yeah, I messed up my reading comprehension on the chain of command.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can you just verbally/write who requested stuff when? Like “Here’s the TPO report Xenia requested Wednesday. ” then its clear if Hera doesn’t want it done she needs to tell Xenia not to request it. Pulls you out of the middle at least.

    3. ecnaseener*

      Xena is your direct manager, not Hera. It seems to me that Xena is fully responsible for only assigning work she’s authorized to assign, and asking whether Hera has approved your would not just sound juvenile but potentially insubordinate.

      1. rock and roll saved my shower*

        I completely mixed up who was the supervisor and who as the boss’s boss. I agree with this: Xena’s your manager and she’s the one who assigns you work. Dealing with Hera is Xena’s job.

  93. New job here I come!*

    I would love thoughts on calculating two weeks’ notice when it overlaps with company holidays and PTO that I’m hoping to take.

    I want my last day to be Friday, June 3. My company will be closed for Memorial Day weekend on Friday, May 27th and Monday, May 30th. I would love to take PTO on Tuesday, May 31 and Wednesday, June 1. (I realize that might not be realistic and that it might make more sense for me to have my last day be May 26th, but I would like my last day to be early in June to get insurance coverage, and I’m willing to not take PTO if push comes to shove.)

    My understanding is that two weeks’ notice is ten business days. So taking all this into account, when should I give my notice?

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Two weeks notice is to wrap things up so it is generally frowned upon to take PTO during your two weeks notice.

      I’d usually discount the company holidays, though, so as long as you gave notice by May 19th, I’d count that as 2 weeks notice.

      I’d recommend to not take PTO and give notice on the 18th or 19th asking that your last day be June 3rd.

    3. PollyQ*

      You should plan to actually work 10 business days, so give notice EOD 5/18 or beginning of 5/19.

  94. Whiner Whiner Chicken Diner*

    We had a strange case of office sabotage this week and I wonder if it was handled correctly. Apparently after work on Monday, someone put some fish in both of our office microwaves, and cooked them for what was probably a very long time. When I arrived at work on Tuesday (I usually arrive first in the office), the space absolutely reeked of fish. REEKED. I checked the microwaves, and they were pretty gross, with some very overcooked fish inside. It was cleaned up, but the smell is still very strong, and you can smell it across our floor. Unfortunately my office is closest to the kitchen area, so my office is pretty smelly, even today.

    Apparently they don’t know who did this. It appears to be premeditated, since both microwaves were used, and there was a good amount of fish involved based on remnants. There are no office grudges that we know of, and while there are two people who recently gave notice, they are leaving on very good terms. We don’t know why anyone would do this.

    The office manager called a meeting of all of us to say that they were investigating and that they have removed the microwaves. They are going to add a camera pointed at the kitchen area, but there was no ETA on bringing back the microwaves. This is going to be a big problem. The nearby lunch options are limited, so the lack of cooking options is a big deal. Some are already talking about looking for a new job. I’m not a fan of office surveillance, but with the camera in place I would think it should be fine to bring back the microwaves. What does the commentariat think? How can we convince them to bring back our cooking capabilities?

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      I would tend to suspect any cleaning folks and/or others who might be there after hours.

      If there is concern about it happening again, then could the electrical circuits that the microwaves are on, be turned off and locked after hours?

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I was thinking that it has to be someone with after-hours access. Otherwise, someone would have noticed right away.

        1. Whiner Whiner Chicken Diner*

          I learned recently that some microwaves allow you to set a “delay start.” Not sure if that was used here.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      That does not seem like a reasonable way to handle things in an office of grown people. Someone did that on purpose and it sound like your office might have some other issues going on. Not saying that the fish bomber was right either.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        Yeah, what is the point in removing microwaves if there are now cameras? Now all are punished and under surveillance.

        2. ArtK*

          There will be cameras, not that there are cameras. Company is likely waiting for the cameras before restoring the microwaves.

        3. Observer*

          The cameras aren’t there yet – they have to be put in. And if my experience is anything to go by, it could take a while to get them in. Especially if there is someone in the chain of command that wants to know “Why are we spending this money when we could just not have microwaves in the office?”

        4. Princess Xena*

          Sounds like maybe the microwaves have to be replaced too and management won’t be in a hurry to do that.

    3. irene adler*

      So why not bring in your own microwave? Anything preventing that?

      When the company microwave died, management said they had no funds to replace it.
      So I bought one myself and donated it.
      Problem solved.

    4. Generic Name*

      This seems like a gross overreaction to “sabotage” that is really just a minor nuisance. It makes me wonder about your company culture.

      2. Whiner Whiner Chicken Diner*

        It wasn’t an accident. Lots of very overdone fish, in multiple microwaves. Something very out of the ordinary, at least based on my last 5 years working here.

        1. Lady_Lessa*

          I am tending to focus on the true cause, because it seems like you are doing the best you can to get the microwaves back.

          Is there any activist groups that could have something against your employer or someone else in the building.

        2. Generic Name*

          I’m not saying it’s an accident. Were the microwaves ruined and unusable? Maybe I’m underestimating the problems smelly fish smell causes in an office?? It just seems like a huge reaction to what seems to me is a dumb prank (and I hate pranks in general). If someone was trying to make A Statement in fish (other than “I Quit” spelled in cod), what statement would that be.

          This kind of reminds me of an incident where a coworker came to work one morning and the skin of a banana he had left on his desk had been repeatedly poked with a fork. He raised a huge ruckus over it. Wouldn’t stop talking about it. Said he felt threatened. Turns out that one of the cleaning staff’s children did it, and no one was out to “get him”. :/

          1. RagingADHD*

            It wasn’t just cooked. It was left to rot overnight, and in the hot humid environment of the microwave it would go putrid fast.

            You are very seriously underestimating the impact of having to smell rotten fish all day long. It is nauseating, and once it gets in the upholstery and carpet, very hard to remove.

          2. Whiner Whiner Chicken Diner*

            They weren’t ruined, but since there was a lot of fish involved (more that what I would think were leftovers), they must have turned bit “juicy” and dripped all over. They cleaned the place up pretty well, but the smell is still pretty strong.

    5. WellRed*

      It’s unclear but has anyone actually asked if the microwaves will be brought back and when? And pointed out how necessary they are?

      1. Whiner Whiner Chicken Diner*

        The exact answer was “Who knows.” The office manager wasn’t in a good mood.

    7. Tricksie*

      This is SO weird. Any chance your management actually wanted an excuse to bring in cameras? No vendettas at all? No pranksters who get out of hand?

      1. Whiner Whiner Chicken Diner*

        I don’t think it was management. There are cameras in other locations (doorways, near a secure room), so they could have done it regardless. Maybe you are right about it being a prank, but if it was it was a pretty lame.

    8. Eff Walsingham*

      My last workplace had many cameras, mainly used to investigate safety incidents, and to underscore management’s stance on stealing (they don’t approve). And yet the one that seemed to be involved in the most investigations was the one in the lunch room. I just don’t understand the motivation behind food crimes by alleged adults. The camera is quite obvious, and the handbook specifies that you will be fired if you commit theft or property damage (among other crimes). And people take it very personally if their lunch is interfered with.

      One guy, his first day, went into the fridge and yoinked out a lunch, not once, but twice! Two hungry people went to the office to complain, and maybe get a few bucks from petty cash for the vending machines? We also don’t have anyplace convenient to get food unless you drive, and even then…. So a supervisor has to take time from her day to go through the video, find the incidents, and what’s the guy’s reaction? “It’s not me.” Whatever, Shaggy. I’m told it was clearly, unmistakably him. Got fired for a couple of lunches that probably added up to ten bucks. Didn’t even try to explain or apologize. SMH

      All to say, now that your lunch room is a proven place of shenanigans, that camera might come in handy.

  95. The Rural Juror*

    Hi, everyone!
    I started a job in November at a company that is MUCH bigger than anywhere I’ve ever worked before. This company has an internship program, which I’ve never had experience with (even my own internship was way out of the norm).

    I’m being assigned as a “buddy” to one intern. I won’t be their manager, just be around to have them under my wing, so to say.

    Anything you all would have appreciated as an intern? I’ll have a little leeway to take them for a couple of coffee breaks outside the office to check in, but every other kind of support will be in the office or remote.

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      Check in on their projects, if they need help getting someone to talk to them about something, etc? When I was an intern, my nominal boss/mentor met with me maybe twice in the whole time, it was up to random people who sat near me to come up with work for me to do. It would have been good to have someone who could have knocked on the boss’s door and cleared things up/assigned me work/assigned me to someone who would assign me work.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Thanks! That’s a good point. We have multiple offices across the US and a lot of people. They might not always realize how many people are working on a project that won’t be visible to them. Some of those folks might need some reminders to delegate work to the intern.

    2. Princess Xena*

      I started a job with one of these! What really helped me was a regularly scheduled 15 minute meeting to chat every other week. Nothing big, just a ‘hi, how ya doing’ sort of thing. Helped me really build a connection and also answered a lot of my questions.

  96. Bunny Girl*

    Anyone have any advice on how to break out of an administrative assistant rut? I graduate in under a year and do have some internships, volunteer, and work experiences in other areas, but most of my resume is administrative and office work and I hate it so much. I have tried to get in other positions at my current department and I am more than happy to quit if needed, but I just seem pigeon holed in an area of work that I absolutely hate. The only time I get any response from jobs is when it’s some sort of office work.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can I ask what field your degree is in? It’s hard to give specific advice otherwise. You need to downplay your office skills and market whatever aspects of those jobs can be applied to your desired field. Focus on the skills you gained that are useful in new field. Like one admin one is to go from list of office tasks as resume bullet to “independently managed multiple project deadlines”.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Fisheries and wildlife biology. I’ve definitely been focusing more on highlighting my other skills instead of my office ones. Unfortunately that’s a huge chunk of my job history.

    2. Cheezmouser*

      Well, what type of work DO you want to do? A lot of jobs are office work, but not all office work is administrative. Is it the office environment that you want to escape or the administrative tasks? If it’s the office environment, then maybe you should think about a different field. For example, do you want to work outdoors? Do you want to work with animals? Children? Do you want to be in a creative field?

      Also, while admin work never goes away no matter what level you are at, it does tend to make up a much higher percentage of your work when you’re an intern or entry-level person. Are you stuck because only administrative assistant positions are open to you right now as a student, or are there other opportunities available but you’re not getting those positions for some reason?

      1. Bunny Girl*

        My associate’s is focused in criminal justice and biology but my bachelor’s is in fisheries and wildlife. I’d like to work outside or honestly doing anything with my hands. I don’t like being in an office or doing administrative work, but I wouldn’t necessarily mind being in an office if I was doing more non-administrative tasks. I’ve found a few non-administrative jobs that I qualify for but I never seem to get interviews for them. Even though I have ten years of work history, I’m happy to even take entry level stuff in a scientific field or similar because my job is literally giving my multiple stomach ulcers.

          1. Bunny Girl*

            Honestly at this point I’m happy to just take seasonal work to get my foot in the door but it looks like no one can look past the fact that I mostly have administrative work in my portfolio. There are a ton of jobs hiring that I would love and excel at, but they all want a degree. I don’t have problems finding stuff I’m qualified for, I just have problems with people taking me seriously as a candidate because all their seeing is my previous work.

        2. Generic Name*

          If you want to lean into the criminal justice part, EPA has enforcement officers for environmental crimes. They typically have law enforcement backgrounds. USFWS also has enforcement officers too. Go to USAJobs and browse what’s on there.

          1. Bunny Girl*

            I don’t. I just majored in that because it was one of the few things that I could do 100% online at the school I was at. I am on USA Jobs constantly. Everything I find wants a degree, which I don’t have right now. I don’t have problems finding jobs, again. I have problems getting interviews to anything because I have so much admin work in my resume.

    3. AdequateArchaeologist*

      Based on some of your responses, may I suggest looking for field biologist positions? Field biologists are constantly in demand with environmental consulting and the pay is good. Getting on with a private or governmental would be good career wise; it’s mostly which side you prefer. Your admin experience will set you apart in a good way (organized, understands processes, can function in a vaguely professional environment!). You might have to seasonally tech for a little bit, but my understanding is field biologists are more in demand than your average shovel bum. (Disclaimer: not a field biologist, but I work in the cultural side of the same industry)

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Thank you. I’ve applied for many of those positions but a lot of them would prefer a degree, even though I meet their “minimum” qualifications.

        1. Hen in a Windstorm*

          Not sure how common these jobs are, but I actually worked as an admin at a field office of my state’s Game & Fish Commission when I was in college. I worked for the deer biologist. Some days it was like any other office job, some days I drove around picking up coolers full of deer heads for my boss to study.

      2. Generic Name*

        Seconded. I’m a project manager for an environmental consulting company, and we’re hiring like crazy right now. Are you in a larger metro area? I suggest attending meetings of organizations such as the Association for Environmental Professionals. There are chapters all over the country.

        You can target environmental consulting firms, but also some of the big engineering firms have environmental (including wildlife) arms. Jacobs Engineering, AECOM, HDR, etc. If you are in the Front Range of Colorado, the CO Open Space Alliance has a mailing list that is full of job postings right now.

    4. ABK*

      Can you take the administrative work off your resume and just include the work experience and education that is relevant to the job you’re applying for? Or leave it on and put it in a separate category, like “Other Work Experience”?

      2. Bunny Girl*

        I would have to put it under other. It makes up 90% of my work history so if I took it away it would be like I never worked.

  97. Lyss*

    Hi, I’m being asked to resign because I am the victim of a crime. The crime did not occur at work. I’m in CA, what should I do? My manager says I won’t be able to get unemployment if I’m fired.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Don’t resign! Manager has it backward. “If you are fired because you lacked the skills to perform the job or simply weren’t a good fit, you should be able to collect benefits. If you are fired for misconduct, however, you will not be eligible for unemployment benefits.”

      Talk to a lawyer. And your union rep if you are unionized.

      1. Lyss*

        One of my exes sent lewd pictures of me to my work. Is that technically misconduct? I know it’s a crime to send these types of things without permission in CA.

        1. DisneyChannelThis*

          Hugs if you want them.

          Absolutely do not resign. That’s not on you at all.

          Also that’s illegal in my state, not sure about CA, but definitely talk to a lawyer and file a police report. “Revenge p*rn laws in CA” is the thing to search (I cant at work sorry!).

          1. Lyss*

            It’s illegal to do any type of revenge p*rn in CA apparently. I feel so hurt, I loved my job and I’m losing it through no fault of my own.

            1. Becky*

              I am so sorry you are going through this.

              Your company is absolutely in the wrong to ask you to resign for being the victim of a crime, perpetrated by someone within the company no less! And quite possibly acting illegally.

              I don’t even understand why they would be asking you to resign.

              Your manager is dead wrong–to the best of my knowledge, you would most likely be ineligible for unemployment if you DID resign.

              Like many people here, I would suggest talking to an employment lawyer.

              CA has some of the strongest employee protections I know of in the US.

              1. Becky*

                *oops I read “exes” as “execs” so ignore the part about perpetrated by someone within the company.

        2. Winslow*

          You have a lawyer by now, right? Talk to them. Don’t do anything because some random on the internet says so! You need actual legal advice here.

        3. Ozzie*

          Definitely talk to a layer – what they did is illegal in CA. Pretty sure you can’t lose your job over it. You didn’t do ANYTHING wrong.

        4. The Prettiest Curse*

          Lawyer up now. They cannot fire you for being the victim of a crime.
          Also, WTF? They are giving the person who sent them the pictures exactly what they want. That person made your employer a willing participant in your abuse.

        5. Econobiker*

          Police report and investigation with your employer involved as a participant victim especially Human Resources Department if one exists. Tell the managers not to delete anything your ex boyfriend sent as it’s evidence of a crime and they could be held liable for destruction of evidence.
          Get a lawyer for your representation as soon as possible. Check with legal aid or other community resources if you can’t afford one.

        6. RagingADHD*

          No, it is not misconduct on your part!

          It is misconduct by the perpetrator. Get a lawyer, because your job is lying to you about your rights.

      2. Lady_Lessa*

        I second (or third) about talking to an employment lawyer. You are the innocent victim. You did NOT send the pictures (you may not have even known that they existed)

        Do not resign, that will for sure make getting UI payments difficult to impossible.

    3. irene adler*

      Document everything! Including what your manager told you.
      Nothing stopping you from filing for unemployment. IF the company disputes the claim, THEY will have to show that you were fired for cause.

    5. Raboot*

      > My manager says I won’t be able to get unemployment if I’m fired.

      Your manager sucks and they or your company just don’t want to pay. In the wise words of Evil HR Lady, don’t take legal advice from the opposition.

    6. Observer*

      My manager says I won’t be able to get unemployment if I’m fired.

      Your manager is almost certainly wrong. The thing is, will HR / your manager put into writing why you are being fired? Because if they do, you should have no problem with getting unemployment. On the other hand, if you quit, THEN you will have a problem.

      Which is another reason to get this in writing. Your manager is either INCREDIBLY ignorant, or lying to you.

  98. Cheezmouser*

    How do you handle project overload when you yourself are part of the problem?

    I have a ridiculous workload, but only 80% of the problem is caused by my workplace–i.e. nature of my role, lack of adequate support staff, too many priorities and deadlines, unrealistic expectations, etc. The other 20% is caused by me, in that as I’m working on a project, I’ll notice a related problem that needs to be handled, and I start digging there, which uncovers another problem, and pretty soon my one project is now 5 projects. Or a colleague will ask a simple question like “How come we only sold 100 widgets last month? Is that right?” and so I go look up widget sales and notice that we’re now counting widgets and whatsits separately whereas they used to be counted together and why was this changed and oh, it’s because we have problems with our new data system, and pretty soon I’m talking to Finance & Reporting about how we can fix this, I’m in scoping calls to gather requirements, I’m on the project team representing my division’s business needs, etc., when all my colleague wanted to know was why the numbers looked weird.

    To be clear, I only go down the rabbit holes that are under my role & responsibility. If I discover something that belongs to someone else, I send a note to them and let them determine if/when/how to handle it. But my roles & responsibilities are very broad, so I have a very wide field where I can go digging rabbit holes. And all of the rabbit holes I go down are ones that are aligned to our department’s objectives, my performance metrics, etc. so I’m not necessarily wasting my time. They’re worthwhile projects that will make an impact on our team and the company. But it results in my overfull plate becoming even more overfull, and I get stressed out.

    I know the easy answer is to just stop going down the rabbit hole, but once I see a problem, it’s hard to unsee it. I can parking lot it, but then my parking lot keeps getting bigger and bigger and that stresses me out too. Help?

    1. PX*

      Oof. I think you need to keep parking them, but then have a discussion with your manager/team about how to manage this backlog that keeps growing.

      It sucks but I’ve definitely been in a position like this where you could quite often find lots of problems if you kept digging, but there wasnt time/resource to fix everything. The best solution was just to document and flag them and then hopefully dedicate some time to resolving them in future.

      Basically just because you find a problem, doesnt mean it needs to be solved right now and by you.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Have you ever been to testing for ADHD type things as an adult? It might be worth looking into.

      Does your brain like lists? Can you make a kanban style list (to do, doing, done) or a 4 grid list (urgent vs non-urgent top and side important/not-important, do the urgent/important first, schedule times for the urgent/non-important, delegate the urgent+non important, toss the not urgent/not important. That might help you flag rabbit holes without diving in.

      My brain likes physical lists over computer lists, I have 3 sizes of post its in 2 colors and a wall behind my desk that’s basically a bulletin board now. left side of monitor urgent, right side less urgent, meeting reminders on the monitor itself. I pull down the post it when I’m working on it. So in your case, the 5 subsequent rabit holes would get a post it note on the right, and the number coworker wanted gets written on the original post it note that says find widget number for coworker then emailed and tossed.

      1. Cheezmouser*

        No, because what often happens (not always, but often enough) is down the road we run into a major roadblock or issue and the VP asks, “Why didn’t we catch this issue earlier?” and the answer is “we did, it’s in my parking lot.” I don’t want to delete my parking lot because I might need to be able to retrace my steps and move things out of the parking lot and onto the project plan.

    4. Princess Xena*

      It sounds like you might have two related problems.
      1. You feel you have issues prioritizing the project you started with and things are growing.
      2. You find that small problems are turning into complex ones.

      #2 to me does not sounds like a you problem. If you yourself say that these are worthwhile projects that will make an impact…then it sounds like someone should be working on them. Sometimes little questions do reveal big issues. I had a similar experience where there was a variance that I just kept investigating, even though it was minor, and then the next thing I knew I’d uncovered a serious flaw in how we were handling some leases. For #2 I would agree with PX above that you need to bring it up to your manager/team about the backlog.

      For #1 though, I would recommend adding a prioritizer to your ‘parking lot’.

      Here’s how I would set one up: put every new issue you find into a spreadsheet. Doesn’t have to be complex, just a few Excel columns. One is ‘rough estimate of the time and energy it will take to fix this’, one is ‘overall impact on the team of leaving this unfixed’, and one of ‘timeline of how urgent this is’. The widgets one, for instance, sounds like it would be ‘large’, ‘large’ (since you found what sounds like a system-wide data issue), and ‘reasonably high’. Then assign a value of 1-5 or similar to each one value and tackle issues from highest value to lowest. Review the issues and how accurate the urgency values are every 3 days or so.

    5. ArtK*

      I’m an inveterate “Alice,” chasing white rabbits down holes that take me to very curious places. It’s taken me a loooong time to learn that I can’t fix everything I find. I would triage before you put things into your parking lot, and groom the parking lot regularly. Look at each item and put a priority on it, as well as an effort estimate. Start by throwing away the low-priority high-effort ones and go from there.

      I agree, too, with the advice to work with your manager on handling that kind of work. What do they see as the most important of these? Are there other people you could delegate to? Perhaps there’s someone who wants to learn more about your area and one of these tasks would be a good introduction.

      I just backed out of a rabbit hole this morning: I wanted to update a software library that our product uses because the version we’re using is 11 years out of date. It should have been simple but the changes to the more modern version cascaded changes throughout the product, leaving me with > 100 files changed and needing testing. Not worth the effort!

  99. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

    What is an appropriate message to write on an e-card congratulating Grand-Boss on a work milestone?

    I have very minimal interaction with her and have been with the team less than a year.

    My actual boss isn’t too involved in my daily doings either but is someone I really look up to professionally so I’d like to say something to compliment her on how she taught my boss well (or something like that). Is that too over-the-top or is there an acceptable way to do so?

    Thanks.

    1. Everything Bagel*

      Hmm, I think I’d stick to congratulationing the grand boss on their current achievement. Saying you taught my boss well is weird to me. It sort of takes away from your actual boss’ own abilities. You might add you feel you’ve really benefitted from the experience you’ve had working for Grandboss and Boss and leave it at that.

      1. Silver Linings From Dreamland*

        Thank you- that sounds perfect. I didn’t mean “teaching well” literally but what you said sums up exactly the message I want to convey.

  100. Ozzie*

    I’ve been asked to come up with bullet points for a position my manager and boss want to create for me to put my job in line with what I’m actually good at, and frankly, much of what I am already doing, but actually giving me space in my job to do it. While I’m putting this together, I want to add a long shot ask into it – I would LOVE a 4 day work week. This is not standard at my company. They’re really about butt-in-chair management, so to speak… Salaried employees are paid for time, not for their job. I think I would ultimately just end up working longer days, which isn’t really a solution to my burnout problem. Is it totally out of touch to even ask? It feels like it is, so much so that I don’t even know how to go about it. Thoughts? Sanity check??

    1. ecnaseener*

      If you ask, I would do so out loud – not by writing it into the new job description. It sounds like a long shot and not something especially closely tied to the “new” position.

      1. Ozzie*

        Oh, yeah, I would bring it up vocally to the managers I’m working on this with. I just figured since that is the context, it would be the right time to mention it – vs baking it into the job itself.

    2. ferrina*

      Could you do one of a 9/80 schedule? That’s where you fit 80 hours (2 weeks worth) across nine work days and get every other Friday off.

      1. Ozzie*

        Ooooh now this is something I hadn’t thought of. This seems way more feasible to me (from my perspective) and could be a solid compromise when it comes to butt in chair issues. Thank you, I will definitely think on this and see if maybe I can swing it.

      2. PollyQ*

        I did this for a while at an old job, and it worked very well. The increase the length of day didn’t feel too onerous, and it was really nice to have an extra day off every other week, for both errands and entertainment.

  101. Student Loanee*

    Hello! more School/student loan question.
    TL:DR version-I just don’t understand the math that leaves people in such large amount of student loan debt–many times the principal.

    Longer explanation:

    I graduated almost 10 years ago with about $12,000 in student loan debt–al federal subsidized loans. I went to a relatively cheap school and paid tuition with a combination of loans/scholarships/pell grants/ working. I know I am lucky to have been able to graduate with so little in student loans. When I graduated I consolidated multiple loans into one loan (through Navient as a federal consolidation). I usually tried to pay more than the minimum payment but occasionally just did the minimum.

    When the pandemic hit I still had about $4,000 left to pay back. Because of the interest suspension I started paying it back aggressively (I am also VERY lucky in that my industry and my job in particular has not been negatively impacted by the pandemic much at all–I was able to fully transition to WFH and ended up taking an internal transfer in 2021 that resulted in a $12,000 raise).

    I finished paying off my student loans in early 2021.

    When I paid my loans, in “normal” times it would always show me what portion of the payment went to the principal and what portion went to interest and it would always show me what the interest rate was (I think it was like around 4.25%).

    So that is my understanding and experience with student loans–I am NOT opposed to ideas of student debt forgiveness/current debates and that is not what I want to discuss.

    What I don’t understand is the math–in my understanding student loans are usually lower interest rates (comparable to a car loan or home loan rather than a credit card) and they don’t “start” collecting interest until you leave school at least subsidized loans? I guess unsubsidized loans or private loans don’t work that wat–I had one unsubsidized loan for I think $2000 that I paid off first before I graduated and consolidated so I know it started collecting interest immediately.

    But even with a loan that does start collecting interest immediately, I don’t understand some of the posts I see online. I saw one the other day where someone originally borrowed something like $70,000, had paid almost $100,000 so far but still owed $160,000. I …I don’t understand the math AT ALL. How does that happen? I’m not doubting people who are in situations where they have been paying for years and yet still owe more than the original principal even though they have already paid at least that much, but how does the math work? I thought I understood compound interest, but apparently do not.

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      Could it be a posting by someone who doesn’t understand the parts, who borrowed 160k (wow!), had paid almost 100k, and still owed something like 70k? That math would work out.

      1. Student Laonee*

        This person was pretty definite–they had a screen cap that looked like from a payment portal showing “original borrowed amount, amount paid, amount outstanding. I mean it could have been entirely made up, but unlikely to be a misunderstanding like that.

    2. BillsBillsBills*

      I understand!

      When I went to law school in 2000, it cost 16k per year, I had a 50% scholarship, so ended up getting through it with about 65k in loans when counting books, housing, food, and not being employable until 6 months after graduation due to the bar exam and waiting on results. My loans were tied to the prime interest rate, which tanked in those years. So I consolidated federal loans at less than 3% and with payment incentives that dropped to less than 1% interest. Private loans were Prime minus some margin, so those were in the 2%-4% range.

      However, now the same law school costs 58k per year. Additionally, federal loans that were “low” are now around 6%, well above cars, houses, even some private loans. And the private student loans can run into the double digits. Most do not require repayment to begin until a year or two after graduation, with the interest capitalized each year. And most companies are on an income-based-repayment (IBR) system, where you pay based on your income level, with the remainder capitalized each year.

      Starting salaries with college or even many professional degrees are not generally keeping up with inflation and especially not the near-tripling of tuition costs in a 20-year time frame. Many people do not understand the effects of IBR or how much of an effect capitalization of interest has on a loan (see also: mortgage crisis of 2008, partly fueled by interest only loans or pick-a-pay loans that capitalized part of the payment for the first 10 years in order to “keep housing affordable”).

      It sucks.

      Consumers should be aware, but it is complicated.

      Colleges/Universities are taking advantage of student loans and rapidly increasing tuition to the max students can potentially borrow.

      States are not subsidizing state colleges like the used to.

    3. Lorena*

      There are lots of reasons this happens to people. As you mentioned, you only had $12k in loans to start with, but many people start with much higher amounts if they had to take out loans to cover room and board along with tuition. My loan interest rates (also federal, starting about 10 years ago) were over 6%, so I’m not sure why yours are so low. In addition, if people have been deferring loans for a long while (like if they went to grad school right after undergrad) the interest balloons those amounts up to absolutely ridiculous levels. Additionally, I believe unless you ask the loan company to process loan payments to go toward the principle, making the minimum payment will automatically go toward interest rather than the principle, so you can pay for years without actually making a dent in the original amount.

      1. Student Laonee*

        I thought deferring meant interest was on hold as well, not just payments. Or is that forbearance and different?

        1. Princess Xena*

          Not always. Federal loans will sometimes defer interest, but private loans will often keep accumulating. Always be sure to check which kind you have!

    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      If you had student loans, but your first post college job didn’t meet requirements to place them on hold and also didn’t pay enough to cover expenses you had no choice but to let the interest accumulate. Or if you had unexpected medical costs, or a totaled car etc. The added on interest then also accumulates interest. It skyrockets fast. Even just paying back a substantial amount each month the interest adds up.

      Let’s say grad school for that masters degree. Unsubsidized direct graduate student loan rates are 5.28%.
      20,000 loans total (10k a year, 2 year degree).

      Let’s say you got a good job, you never miss a payment. If you pay $215 a month for 10 years, it’s paid off and you paid back $25,785. The extra ~6k there comes from interest – it took you those 10 years, it accumulated more debt. Of your monthly payment $84 goes to paying interest, $167 goes toward the actual loan.

      Now let’s say you had a baby and weren’t able to make payments due to increased costs for 2 years (maternity leave plus medical bills from birth meant less money in year 1 and in year 2 you just couldn’t pay daycare and loan so loan suffered). The loan term extends more than two years as a result, you owe even more interest, it spent those 2 missing years just adding up, 5% a month added to the total.

      CUMIPMT in excel will let you calculate interest payments if you want to play around with numbers yourself.

      Keep in mind, I’m being really underestimating here, both in the amount of loan as well as the time you’d probably take off loan payments with an unexpected baby, daycare for infant costs wayyyyy more than 215 a month. https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-statistics : “Among today’s college students, 65% graduate with student debt.” “Public university attendees borrow an average of $30,030 to attain a bachelor’s degree. Private, non-profit university attendees borrow $33,900 and private, for-profit students borrow $43,900.”

      2. DisneyChannelThis*

        And I forgot to mention late fees. “The late fee on a delinquent federal student loan is 6% of the amount that was due and unpaid. The late fee is the same on both FFEL program and direct loan program loans.”

        That’s per month.

        Private loans start late fees as soon as like 2 weeks in.

    5. Dragonfly7*

      In deferment due to underemployment, taking additional college classes, and income-based repayment means the total amount I owe is now larger than it was when I graduated, all entirely due to interest continuing to accumulate.

      1. Student Laonee*

        I took a long while to graduate, mostly because I would take part time classes/work full time or work full time/take part time classes. Whenever I was in school at least half time interest would cease accumulating (and for like a 6 month grace period so it didn’t start accumulating during summer if I wasn’t in classes)–however this was before I consolidated my loans. Does continuing classes post consolidation change that, or is it graduating that changes that?

        1. Student Laonee*

          *headdesk* brain not working on a friday afternoon:
          “part time classes/work full time or work full time/take part time classes” was supposed to be “part time classes/work full time or full time classes/work part time”

    6. enough*

      If you have a income based payment plan you might not be actually paying anything (or very little) to the principle. this will make it more costly and last longer. If you are expected to pay the loan off in 15 yrs at $250 a month but only pay $175 a month the extra $75 just adds to what needs to be paid in the future and interest is charged on everything outstanding.

  102. Confused About Time*

    Recruiters…

    Is it a standard line for internal recruiters to say “I will get back to you by the end of this week” but then, not do so?

    Sometimes it is 2 weeks, sometimes a month, sometimes ghosted, but never is it “end of this week.”

    Last time I job searched, recruiters were non-existent in my field, so I have no frame of reference for how internal recruiters work. But I was taught to set realistic expectations and do your best to contact someone when you say you will.

    So, is this standard? Is it code for “Eh, we don’t really like you but want to keep you on the hook”? Am I reading too much into this?

    1. ArtK*

      You’re reading too much into it. They may not be able to get the response from someone internal when they expected to. They should keep you updated but that doesn’t always happen.

    2. PollyQ*

      Nah, don’t take it personally. It’s code for, “We’re going to pretend to run our business responsibly, but actually doing so would be too much work, and if we told you ‘We’ll get back to you in a while, or maybe never’ you wouldn’t want to do business with us.”

    3. Wordybird*

      I have interviewed for dozens and dozens of jobs over the course of my life (and applied for hundreds), and I can count on one hand the number of HR professionals who have stuck to the deadline(s) they told me. I recently received a reply from a job I had applied for less than 24 hours earlier, and I seriously thought it was a mistake.

  103. leaf*

    Okay, got a bit of a weird question (and I’m pretty sure this isn’t imposter syndrome talking, but, y’know, reality check me if it is). I got my first corporate job through a training program for young adults without a college degree, and due to some politics/people leaving/things being moved around, I was assigned a whole lot of technical duties usually given to people with a degree, maybe a master’s, and/or many years in the industry. And then I was moved to a different team where my job is to do those tasks as well as SME on things that I, uh, am not an SME on. Would it be weird for me to take a lateral or step-down move after two years of performing “fine but not exceptional in this work” into something more hands-on where I could actually learn the principles my current work is based on? My current manager heard me say “looking for something else within the company” and thought I wanted a step up in responsibility, but that’s not true! I suppose my question is also- how do I tell her that?

    1. ABK*

      Do you want to move because you aren’t interested in what you’re doing now, or is it only because you feel like you’re not performing as well as you’d like? If it’s the latter, then I would recommend that you continue to work at your current job and try to get additional training until you feel more comfortable in your role. As for what to tell your manager, go with something generic like – looking for more hands-on work, or looking for new challenges. Definitely do not tell your manager that you feel that you are under-performing.

      1. leaf*

        Both, honestly! I’m basing my “doing fine” on my actual performance evals over the past couple years, BTW- they’re “meets expectations” rather than “exceeds”. I’m definitely using the “more hands-on work” line- because that’s actually what I like doing, along with having more structure, maybe? I’ve heard that’s not the best way to articulate what I’m looking for, but I’m not sure.

    2. Lioness Rampant*

      I feel you. I moved into a role that I hadn’t been given proper training on (and I thought that I would get proper training….nope!) I wished that I could take a step down to learn the skills that everyone suddenly assumed I had.
      But the optics look bad for a step down. You could probably do a lateral if you say “I want to focus on….”
      Agree with ABK that you should not tell you manager that you think you’re underperforming. It can get bad. I had a manager suddenly question everything I did when I told her I was uncomfortable with one of my duties and needed more training. I was doing just fine in the other four things, but she never trusted me after that.

      1. leaf*

        This makes sense. Thank you for the advice! I’ll definitely tell her that I want to focus on other things in my career.

    3. OtterB*

      You mention learning the principles your current work is based on. Can you tell your current manager that you’d like more training in that area, not saying that you’re bad at your job but framing it as learning more about the principles to better position yourself for future changes in technology? Or wanting to learn more about related work areas?

  104. Person from the Resume*

    So as part of an icebreaker / fun distractor in the midst of a team meeting we were asked “Would you rather go into the past to meet your ancestors or into the future to meet your great-grandchildren?” It was more a thought provoker where folks typed into the chat box so at least no one was put on the spot, but …

    Way to assume every employee has children or will have children or has children who will have kids!

    The question annoyed the heck out of me because a nearly identical question could be asked (past or future?) without any mention of children, but NO, somebody certainly let their heteronormative, nuclear family bias come through on that question.

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      I agree that that question could be insensitive but I’m not sure what’s heteronormative or nuclear family about having children.

    2. Princess Xena*

      I’m gonna go with ‘grandchildren’ being easier to type than ‘descendents three generations later than you’, with precisely zero offense meant.

      And while I understand that people without kids can get frustrated with those people who do have kids, this seems like a BEC level thing to get steamed about. And I say that as someone who does not have kids and is not currently planning on any.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        I agree, and I also have no kids or plans for any. I would look at this as it was probably intended, hypothetically, would you be more interested in talking to somene from the past or the future?

    3. Maggie*

      Well you don’t have to be hetero or part of a nuclear family to have grandkids! I would just take it as future family members, like my nephews kids or something. It does assume everyone has kids and it is kinda annoying but idk how it’s heteronormative since a gay single person could have grandkids and I’m sure many do

    4. Rara+Avis*

      Yeah, since it’s all speculative anyway — you can’t actually do either — I wouldn’t mind the hypothetical.

    5. Eff Walsingham*

      Nah, I’m with you. It’s annoying. I’m not going to have any great-grandchildren… or descendants three generations later than me. My grandfather’s line stops with me. And that’s all right. I’m largely at peace with it by now. But some people in a similar situation might not be. I agree that it doesn’t seem like it was meant to be offensive, but I find it irritatingly clueless in this day and age.

    6. Snarky Snarkerson*

      We also used that question with a similar result. We were told that not everyone’s ancestors were free to do as they liked and it triggered them to now start thinking about their ancestors.

  105. Xaraja*

    This is a weird one. I work in IT and just moved into a position where I’m basically cleaning up a huge mess of data. It involves a lot of waiting for things to load, then making a few changes and waiting again. I often spend a minute or more in between being able to do something. That’s what my position was created for, to fix these problems, but there’s no way to do that except to just do it.

    My questions is about how it looks to be sitting there not obviously working while I’m waiting. I tend to play games on my phone because i don’t want to show the computer down by trying to do something else on it. My bosses know I’m working and don’t seem perplexed by it, but it still feels odd to me. I’ve tried trying to work on something else in the meantime or read blogs about the software i use and the industry I’m in, but that’s a lot of changing what I’m focusing on back and forth and becomes very distracting.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      If your bosses know what your work is like, does it matter what other people think?

      1. Dancing Otter*

        Reputation.
        Been there myself (find & replace on 100K+ record tables in SQL Server: run-times were over 20 minutes sometimes). Rather than playing on the phone, I made my grocery list, updated my to-do list, both on paper, checked email, doodled…. I think I even did a paper draft of my income taxes. People don’t really look at what you’re writing, but they do notice games. Which isn’t logical, but human.

      2. Camellia*

        Unfortunately, yes it does, it can sour others’ attitude toward you and affect you in ways you may not even realize. I had this happen once, when I was working for a company that required business casual dress code, meaning dress shoes. I developed a severe case of plantar fasciitis and my doctor wrote me a note for work allowing me to wear athletic shoes while we treated it. After a couple of weeks I was walking down an aisle between cubes and suddenly one of the men jumped out of his cube and full on confronted me, saying (rather loudly) that it must be nice to be so special and not have to adhere to the dress code with my shoes. I simply replied that my doctor had approved them, stepped around him, and continued on my way. But I soon realized that he wasn’t the only one who had that attitude. Being me, in the next department meeting in our tiered auditorium, I sat in the front row. When they asked if there was anything else to discuss, I raised my hand. When they called on me, I stuck my foot straight up in the air over my head (I’m very flexible) and said, “My doctor has prescribed these shoes for me, just wanted to let everyone know.” Nuff said.

  106. Crystelle*

    Sorry if this has been covered before, but I’m leaving my first job next week, and while I know it’s the right move (I was getting pretty stagnant and had some frustrations) I feel so… anxious and sad and just plain weird! Is this normal? How do I get excited about my new opportunity again?

    1. ferrina*

      Super normal.
      Do you have any time between jobs? I like to take a week to reset and amp myself up for the new job. I read the job description, replay the interview in my mind and generally remind myself of all the things that made me excited to switch! And do celebratory things- treat yourself to a nice dinner or a favorite dessert

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Totally normal! Just because something is the right decision doesn’t mean it’s not sad or stressful to make it. It’s hard to make a change, even good changes!

      As for how to get excited – why did you choose to go with that opportunity to begin with? What does it offer? Where can/will it lead? Think of those things :)

  107. moving is hard*

    Anyone have advice on lease renewal when you might relocate soon? I’m in interviews at a couple companies that would likely (not guaranteed, but pretty good odds) need me to relocate. I’m in early stages so if I do well I certainly won’t hear decisions until at least some point in June, and possibly more like July. I might or might not even take either of these jobs if they were offered. There is some amount of time after taking the jobs during which I could remain in my current location, but they would want me on site at some point (unclear on exact timeline as it depends on all kinds of factors I don’t know yet). This is more of an idle “saying yes to emails from recruiters” situation than an active job hunt so if I don’t get these jobs I will almost certainly be staying put. Based on a variety of factors, I think I have pretty good odds at landing at least one of these jobs.

    I get a discount on my rent if I renew my lease sooner (like…by May 1 sooner) and if I renew for a longer period of time (12 month lease is several hundred dollars per month cheaper than 6 month lease). I have to renew by mid June so I may not have heard back even if I wait a little longer.

    How do I even approach this decision?

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      I’d check what local laws there are (if any) on breaking leases.

    2. Alice*

      If you can, find out whether your building allows subletting. I once had to move out of a place one month into a 12-month lease and I just set up an 11-month sublet with the new tenant, and my landlord didn’t care because he was getting paid and there was a signed sublet form.

      Also, I second looking into lease break laws or even just your building’s policies. Some places just charge a fee if you break the lease (the more notice you can give the better of course) and that may end up being more financially viable than paying the higher rent for a shorter lease.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        An alternative to subletting is transferring the lease to someone else. A lot of places I’ve been in have are open to that, but I might just have been lucky.

    3. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      Would the companies offer coverage of a lease breaking fee as part of a relocation package, or if they gave you just a chunk of cash as part of it you could use it for that? I don’t know how common either of those might be, but it could be something you could negotiate for?

      1. moving is hard*

        I would almost certainky just get a chunk of cash. Lease break penalty is 2 months rent which is steep, but not that steep. We’ll see what happens. Thanks for the help all.

  108. YesILiveInNorthDakota*

    If your boss approves hybrid schedule are you obligated to stay a certain period of time after or can you accept another job?

    2. Littorally*

      You’re not obligated, no. The only consideration I’d say there is would be if your boss had to expend some serious political capital to get you the schedule, they’d have reason to be annoyed with you if you dipped out shortly thereafter — but that’s hardly the end of the world.

      1. ferrina*

        Agree. This is why “it was too good to pass up” exists- to make a manager feel better about their retention strategy not working (it wasn’t you, it was the outside influence that you had no control over)

  109. Jean*

    I’m in the first real job search of my career, and I’m in interview processes for two jobs I would love. First choice, which has more interesting work, better pay, and better benefits, but is also more of a reach job for me, seems to be moving slower than second choice, which I would still love to take and am much more likely to get. So I’m starting to realizing I could end up in a position where second choice offers me the job and needs an answer while I’m still in the process with first choice and don’t know if I have it yet. What do people do in that situation????

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      When I was in that situation, I asked for a week from the first place and contemplated it. I had reasonable assumption that the second place was probably not going to fall through, and so I took the risk and declined the first place.

      But without that working assumption on the second place… well, sometimes that happens. If you’re in a good place right now where you don’t need the new job and can take the risk, go ahead. But otherwise, well, the second place should have worked faster to get you.

    2. ferrina*

      I’ve always been in a position that I needed to get a job. I generally try to get a little time from my second choice and reach out to my first choice to see if they can move faster, but generally I end up going with the second choice. Again, I’ve generally been in a position that makes me risk-adverse and prefer a guaranteed job over a maybe

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Same here. Asked for time to think, asked First Job for expedite, then picked the job I actually had an offer for.

  110. Usagi*

    I have a random question I’ve been wondering for a while. Is anyone able to tell me why in the US (and probably other countries as well), there’s an unspoken rule of sorts about not giving bad references? It’s very “if you have nothing good to say, don’t say anything at all.” Coming from a country that is not a Western one, that’s very strange to me, if I call someone for a reference about a candidate, I would want to know the truth, lest I potentially hire a bad candidate. I mean, I get that declining to provide a reference kind of implies the negative, but then I also see people actually going through with the reference and trying to find good things to say about the candidate.

    I’m absolutely not trying to insult this practice, or say it’s wrong, or anything like that. It’s just really strange and confusing to me, since (in my mind) I’m calling to hear about how this person actually was as an employee, not the polite version of the story.

    1. Dancing Otter*

      I think it has to do with how litigious we are, as a society. Anyone can sue anyone over anything, reasonable or not. They may get laughed out of court, but defending against nuisance suits is a time and expense drain. So no one wants to risk being sued for slander or tortuous interference.
      Or, if it’s about a less than stellar current employee, why torpedo the chance to be rid of them?
      That, and we really are raised on the adage you quoted.

      1. Usagi*

        Ah, I see. That makes sense. I didn’t consider the legal part of it. Thank you very much!

    2. Symphony Board member*

      No one wants to risk a lawsuit by giving a bad report and they do happen.

      It can also be recognizing that a person who was a bad fit at OldJob and was terminated could thrive and excel doing something different at NewJob.

      1. Usagi*

        That definitely makes sense. It’s absolutley possible for someone to do better someone else, too. Thank you!

    3. ferrina*

      There are very few people I would truly give a bad reference for.
      More often there’s people that I liked who would be good in certain circumstances, but ended up not being good in the capacity that I knew them in. The person that got away with everything because she was friends with the big boss, who would probably be fine in a more junior role with heavy situation. The person who was hired for X but truly wanted to do Y and ended up neglecting X. The person who had a terrible boss and always had to fight for resources so trumped up her knowledge because it was the only way to get what she needed, but if she had a supportive boss would be fabulous. These are folks that I hope will someday be great at what they do, but definitely weren’t it when I was working with them. I will give you a lukewarm reference- I’ll tell you that they weren’t great when I was working with them, but I saw a lot of potential in them that I hope will someday come to fruition.

    4. Irish Teacher*

      In Ireland, at least, my understanding is that you read between the lines. If there is something bad, you simply leave that out or “damn with faint praise.” “X was usually punctual,” for example, is phrased in a positive way, but implies they were late often enough that the referee has to qualify it. It’s then up to the person employing to decide whether “usually punctual” is good enough.”

      You will still know the truth, as a general rule, but you’ll just need to read between the lines a little to get it.

      “X worked here from x date to y date. Their work was generally satisfactory, they were usually punctual and are polite, honest and trustworthy” tells a VERY different story than “Y worked here from x date to y date. Their work was of a very high standard and received very positive feedback from virtually every client they worked with. They are honest, hard-working, reliable and have great attendance. They have great relationships with their coworkers,” etc.

      In Ireland, I think it is very much a cultural thing. A friend who teaches in the UK and I were comparing school inspection reports from our two countries and I was quite shocked to see schools in the UK being described as being unsatisfactory and so on. Here, saying something like “teaching of x subject was satisfactory with some good classes” would be unusually negative. I think pretty much everybody knows the code and understands that if you give minimal praise or if you avoid a topic, it implies something negative. I was at a reality TV show once and close enough to the stage to hear the judges conversations between themselves in the breaks. There was one judge who was not Irish and another was trying to explain to them that they shouldn’t actually be critical of candidates who are rejected. They felt too that the candidates would want the truth, but I think most people know the score.

      So I would imagine references would usually list the positives and you can assume that if something that should be included is not, that means they cannot say anything good on that topic. If the referee is “finding good things to say about the candidate,” that is likely to be obvious. “Johnny made a great addition to the staff darts team” pretty much makes it clear “that’s the only good thing I can think of to say about him.”

      I think in Ireland, part of it is the size of the country. There is a good chance you will run into the person socially or that you will have contacts in common with them. Running into somebody in the supermarket and making small talk after you’ve been really negative about them on a reference would…get awkward.

  111. The Prettiest Curse*

    What’s the weirdest lie a colleague has ever told you? I’m from the UK and while I was working in the US, an American colleague told me that she was born in a specific area of the UK. I made a joke about it and basically forgot what she’d said until she gave her notice, when I mentioned it to her again …. and she told me that, actually, she wasn’t born in the UK.

    So one of those statements wasn’t true, and I have absolutely no way of knowing which one! I have to admit that it’s actually a pretty devious way of getting someone to remember you, because I didn’t really know this person well, and the lie she told makes me think about her way more than I would do otherwise, because sometimes it will randomly pop into my head and I’ll think “wow, that was strange.”

    1. WellRed*

      The second statement is the lie. People lie for all sorts of random, nonsensical reasons, in this case, likely to connect with you on some superficial level. After the fact? They no longer feel the need for the lie.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        I eventually concluded that it was more likely that she had lied about being born in the UK for that reason (trying to make a connection), but it’s just so weird to lie at work about something that nobody can verify unless they see your birth certificate!

    2. Usagi*

      Oh man, I had a peer (both of us managers) who would lie about EVERYTHING. It was the most bizzare case of one-upmanship I’ve ever seen. I can’t tell you why I know this (for my anonymity’s sake) but I know that this was not due to any kind of disability/condition too, it was just him trying to be cooler and better than everyone else. Based on the stories he told myself and others (that we put together later):

      – His family is the head of one of the major Triads in a major Pacific Northwest city
      – He graduated high school at 16
      – He joined the military (Army?) at 18. He was a sniper
      – He graduated college at 19
      – He was promoted to Captain and was inducted into the Rangers at some point
      – He was honorably discharged from the military, but he was so good at sniping that President Obama himself personally asked him to come out of retirement to go to Afganistan
      – He was studying to be a doctor, but decided to become a nurse instead “since they’re more hands on”
      – His family owns a nail salon, which he took over (so he knows how to do mani/pedis — also, he knows how to cut hair and do make up)
      – He has worked for Google, Apple, Microsoft, and Facebook as a software engineer or similar position. We worked in retail at the time he told us this.
      – He is a multi-millionaire, owning property in major cities along the west coast. Also, he owns many expensive sports cars

      Among other things. Obviously that all doesn’t sound right to begin with, but did I mention he was also 24 when he started working with us?

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Wow, that dude had a highly developed imagination and an interesting fantasy life!

    3. Roy G. Biv*

      Former coworker, who was rarely fully honest, and was definitely manipulative, told me his spouse was a professional wrestler. As in regional GLOW-type wrestler. This was a lie. This same person told a fantastic tale of being fired at a celebrity-attended music event. That turned out to be true. So it was difficult to know what was true, what was exaggerated, and what was a lie. We put a more complete picture together after this coworker left the company and the rest of us began comparing notes. Makes for entertaining chit chat at company events.

    4. rock and roll saved my shower*

      Coworker once blew off a staff meeting that she could see everyone else going to, and had been told about.

      Her excuse for missing it? It wasn’t on her calendar.

      We had open calendars in Outlook and could see each other’s calendars. It was on her calendar.

    5. Alexis Rosay*

      A colleague announced in a presentation we were giving that she had studied abroad in China for a year in high school and spoke fluent Chinese. She…didn’t speak any Chinese. Her job did not require knowing Chinese and we also worked with a reasonable number of Chinese-speaking people who would have been able to check this very easily (though they weren’t present at this particular presentation).

    6. Tofu Fan*

      We had an HR person who would say things like “when I was a vet” or “when I was a brain surgeon.” It was so weird and awkward.

    7. Irish Teacher*

      The strangest I had wasn’t exactly told TO me, but…a manager lied about something I’d said in a one-on-one in a report I was to get a copy of. I would assume she’d just misheard or forgot what I said, but she went into detail about how she replied and how she’d told me I should have done *something pretty close to what I actually DID do*

      This manager regularly lied about bizarre things though. OH! I can actually do a better one, though I’m not sure if this was just a joke. She announced that she “thought she was getting a brain hemorrhage.”

      She said she was scared of heights, then I saw her standing up a worktop I would have been scared even to sit on. She told me she was three different ages at different times in the same year. Now they were close – 30, 32 and 35 – and it didn’t matter anyway, but still…in none of those situations was there any reason for her to even bring up her age.

  112. Temp Recruiter*

    Hello,

    I have an interesting and probably simple question – a candidate is requesting a copy of our handbook before making their decision on the offer extended to them. That’s fine, however the preference is to not provided our company documents before the individual is even an employee. How do I phrase it in a way to say, I’m more than willing to share the info but I can’t give you the physical document?

    Thank you

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      Why can’t you give them the document? It’s your “preference”, okay, but that doesn’t like it’s a hard and fast rule or that there’s any real strong reason why not.

    2. Crystelle*

      Maybe, “The file itself is subject to company privacy policies, but I’d be happy to forward you any sections you wanted to look over. Our handbook is broken out into categories X, Y, Z. Can you give me more detail on what you’d be looking for?”

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      Ask your bosses/HR if they can provide the handbook to employees with an offer.

      I guarantee if they’re trying to feel out if your trans friendly or similar they’re not going to volunteer that information to get just the section they want. It’s not just one section either. Things like is the dress code weirdly gendered (male/female uniforms different). Does your medical leave policy include “elective” surgery like top surgery. Does maternity/paternity leave apply for adoptive parents?

        1. rock and roll saved my shower*

          I feel it works for a lot of other situations, where they’re trying to figure out something that might be discriminatory/potential stigma/potential problems. The handbook can answer certain questions, but won’t answer others. So if they want a handbook, they’re looking for things in the handbook.

        2. Raboot*

          Sounds like they’re saying, they guarantee that if the candidate wants to know something sensitive, then they won’t want to volunteer it. And then giving an example. I doubt they mean the candidate is obviously trans.

          Like, a friend recently reached out to me about various leave policies at my company because they had an interview coming up and medical stuff looming. They were able to ask me candidly but if they just had someone “official” I’m sure they’d have preferred the whole shebang than to share they may need significant time off for medical reasons.

    4. Dancing Otter*

      The handbook defines terms of employment, right? I can see why a smart candidate would want to see that before deciding.
      We’ve seen enough weird rules and practices in letters here to know there can be problems no one would think to ask about. If you don’t disclose until onboarding, what’s the new hire supposed to do? They’ve already given up their previous employment.
      If I asked (smart candidate!) and was refused, I’d wonder what the company was trying to hide.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        Right, why would it be a secret? A handbook doesn’t typically have privileged or company confidential info, at least not that I have seen.

    5. irene adler*

      Is it the physical document you cannot provide? If so, can you provide an electronic file to the prospective candidate? Otherwise, I’m going to wonder why the reluctance. After all, you have already made a job offer; presumably to someone who will become an employee.

    6. Hen in a Windstorm*

      If my husband’s company who contracted with the Navy and required a Secret Security Clearance could share the company handbook with the job offer, so can you. They gave him a direct link and temporary login/password to their intranet so he could read it.

    7. Observer*

      That’s fine, however the preference is to not provided our company documents before the individual is even an employee. How do I phrase it in a way to say, I’m more than willing to share the info but I can’t give you the physical document?

      What is the issue here? Why can’t you give them an electronic copy?

    8. PollyQ*

      Courts have, in some cases, ruled that an employee handbook is essentially a contract, which means that it’s absolutely reasonable for a candidate to want to review it first. If the hang-up is physical vs. electronic, then by all means, send them the e-copy. But if you have any capital at all, I’d push back with the higher-ups about applying this rule to the handbook at all.

    9. Warrior Princess Xena*

      I’m going to agree with other posters here – if the issue is that you can’t give them a hardcopy, that’s odd but OK. But if the issue is ‘you can’t see the written contract at all before signing the offer’…I’d be pretty wary about that too. This is something that I’m expected to abide by, so I want to see it.

      Additionally, this prevents you from running into bias situations. I’d wouldn’t be surprised if the candidate in question wants to know information about something that you legally can’t consider during the hiring process (pregnancy, gender, disability, etc) and would far rather get their question answered unobtrusively than risk you becoming biased with information you’re not supposed to factor into your hiring decision anyways.

      For what it’s worth I signed the code of conduct along with the rest of my hiring documents, so I didn’t see it before then but I had a chance to look it over and say ‘yes, this is reasonable’ before legally accepting the offer.

    10. RagingADHD*

      Why does the company want people to accept a job without disclosing all their policies?

      If they aren’t doing anything shady, they sure are acting shady about it.

      If they think candidates will walk away from offers, they need to fix the policies. If they are afraid of their policies being disclosed on socual media -again, fix the policy.

  113. Gaggle*

    I started a new job 3 months ago. The commute is really causing problems for me, it’s an hour long both ways and gas prices make it expensive. I’m exhausted and recently determined that I’m underpaid compared to some co-workers. I’ve already asked within the last month or so if I could work from home a couple days a week and was given a “maybe later.” I’ve been job searching some, but I’m considering letting my supervisor know that I need a raise or I’m going to have to start looking. I know 3 months is typically considered really early to ask for a raise. Should I hope the job search is fruitful and wait to ask for a raise until I hit the 6 months mark??

    1. WellRed*

      I wouldn’t. You agreed knowing there was a commute and that gas is expensive. I feel for ya.

      1. WellRed*

        Sorry, I wouldn’t ask for a raise at this point or at the six month mark if it’s solely about the commute/gas costs.

    2. rock and roll saved my shower*

      Unless something is very out of whack*, you don’t really have any cause to ask for a raise. I don’t think you’re going to get one. So yeah, go for the job search.

      Also, that “maybe later” on working from home may very well pan out. When I started my new job before the current times, you had to work there 6 months before they’d let you telework, but after that, you could telework three times a week. So it’s possible that you might be able to start that in a couple months.

      *when you say underpaid compare to coworkers, if it’s a discriminatory situation, you might have a chance. But if they’re paid more because they had more seniority/been there longer, that’s different

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      I’d start job hunting, and then if you still like your current one, then ask about changes.

    4. ferrina*

      I’m sorry, but the job search is the way to go. You took the job knowing what the commute and compensation were. Three months is so early- at most places you’re barely onboarded in three months. That’s way too early to argue that your value to the company has increased (hence why your work merits the raise). Honestly, 6 months is usually too early. A year is usually when I’d recommend revisiting compensation, when you have stronger evidence of your value to the company.

      That said- you said that the company underpaid you compared to some co-workers. I’m assuming that the co-workers don’t have some experience or qualifications that make them more valuable to the company, and that the company underpaid you because they could. If so, that’s really crappy of the company. I don’t think you can argue them to better compensation, but that’s really telling of how they value their people.

      1. Gaggle*

        So, it’s basically a situation where they negotiatated with one person who’s getting ~7k more than the rest of us, but everyone started at essentially the same time and is doing the same work. My relevant experience compared to the person making more is pretty identical, but I don’t think there’s discrimination at play. Unfortunately, I think you’re all correct and I’m just unhappy because I had asked for more but gave in really quickly to the lower number.

  114. I'm the Phoebe in Any Group*

    I could use help on recruiting for AmeriCorps Vistas for a nonprofit client. The past two years we had plenty of candidates and chose two great ones out of the pool. This year, we have very few applicants. A strong economy always reduces interest in national service programs, but there are still people very drawn to this. Typically, some applicants are local, some from other cities/ states and relocation is paid. Any ideas on where I could do outreah?

    1. Rainy*

      I’d look at whether your client is getting fewer applicants because the cost of living in the area the client is in means that the Americorps stipend will result in the successful candidate living in abject poverty.

      1. I'm the Phoebe in Any Group*

        That’s a good point. Thank you. I wonder if people are leaving the state or not moving here because of horrific laws on abortion, trans people and education.

        1. Rainy*

          Oh–yeah, that might also be the case. Depending on the service program and organization, interested applicants might not be willing to sign on for a year in a state with that kind of legal landscape. That’s a tough one–I think emphasizing the good they could do and the network they’d build might help a little. Try to find the advantages in the situation.

  115. Mimmy*

    What do you all think of meetings–virtual or in-person–where people are allowed to just jump in to comment about something? Our virtual meetings are absolute torture sometimes. Cameras are mostly off (by choice) and, while most people stay muted when not speaking, I’m finding that people talk over each other. I know it’s hard sometimes when two people try to say something at the same time, but it grates my nerves.

    In addition, no one bothers to use the “raise hand” feature. The few times I’ve tried using it, it gets ignored. I’ve asked my supervisor about using it and she (nicely) shot me down; I think she likes the flexibility of everyone being allowed to speak whenever.

    I personally prefer meetings where people raise their hand. It may seem inflexible, but it’s more controlled when there are a lot of people.

    1. ferrina*

      Depends on how many people there are, what the meeting is, and how useful the comments are. But yeah, for large virtual meetings I find it’s best to have a flow in who is talking (whether that’s an agenda or someone leading the meeting) and a designated flow of discussion.
      I’ve run into the same thing where if I’m not willing to talk over people, I get ignored.
      That said, depending on who the commenters are and who the meeting is for, there’s usually not a lot I can do about it. It’s also why my brainstorming discussions tend to be in smaller groups (3-4, maybe up to 6).

    2. ecnaseener*

      I guess it’s a matter of personal taste. I find it excruciatingly slow to make everyone wait to be called on, and people seem less engaged.

    3. RagingADHD*

      In person, jumping-in works fine in small groups but becomes unwieldy as soon as the table is too big for everyone to keep each other in their peripheral vision to see cues. So like, maybe 8? Possibly 10 if they’re all very polite, but that’s a stretch.

      On video it is even fewer, again because of the difficulty picking up those “Im about to speak” cues, lag time, etc. Five is tricky on video.

      Once you cross that threshold, the moderator / facilitator needs to run things in a more organized way.

      1. Mimmy*

        Our meetings (all virtual) range from 15-20 people, give or take. Some meetings, the facilitator (our manager) is pretty good about keeping things organized. But other meetings, she just opens the floor and that’s when it gets a little chaotic. Our manager does have the habit of jumping in while someone is making a comment. I have a hearing impairment and I am constantly reminding them of this. I know of two other employees who are also hard of hearing. I’m probably being a PITA and I do use auto-captions, but my brain just cannot handle multiple voices at once.

  116. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    I have a new hire for a fully remote team starting Monday. First time a new person has joined this team in four years. I’m putting together a FAQ for administrivia (PTO requests, scheduling, expectations, etc). If you’re starting a new fully-remote role, what do you want to know on your first day?

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        That’s a great one. When I’m onboarding new remote co-ops I always tell them to save the number for the IT desk in their phones because if they ever get locked out or have tech issues that render their computer useless, they’ll still have a way to contact IT.

        I had that happen to me once and so now I absolutely make sure they know what to do if they can’t contact IT using the regular methods.

    2. ferrina*

      Any softwares I’ll be using and what the training plan is
      Who will be overseeing my training and what I should expect to learn
      Who do I contact for tech issues (and what are my log-ins?)
      Who has time to answer any random questions I have
      What my first week will look like

      Thank you for being so thoughtful about this! I had a couple terrible onboarding experiences, and I deeply appreciate a good experience.

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      How to meet the team members – will I gradually meet them as I work with them or are there introductions at top of a all hands meeting or will I need to try and get on zoom with them as I realize I’ve never met so and so a year later lol.

    4. Dancing Otter*

      System access credentials; Help Desk number and hours, not just the ticketing system, in case they can’t *get* online; if there are rules about fonts and colors in email/documents (had a coworker decide to use Christmas colors once, which meant anyone color blind couldn’t decipher her messages); best ways to reach the boss; whom to contact for what; user manuals (link or download or dead tree) for any software they will be using; an org chart, at least for the department up and down two or three levels (very disorienting to get messages and not know who the h*** the sender is).
      Oh, and they *will* have all the necessary equipment on Monday, I trust? Does your IT department need to be nudged to have everything set up in time?

    5. TiffIf*

      If it isn’t covered by an HR intro packet already:
      How to enter hours and any necessary information about how to code time or cod a department etc
      How to set up direct deposit, sign up for health insurance, view your pay stubs, sign up/into 401k etc.
      Company paid holiday calendar, handbook, policies.
      Hopefully all that stuff is covered by not you, but it depends on your company.

      Other things:
      – Names and email addresses of those who they will be working with or may have to occasionally contact. a Who’s Who of people in the company they ought to know about even if they never interact with them.
      – Important names of People they Should Know so when someone says “Jim” in a meeting where there is no Jim attending they know you’re talking about Founder/CEO who left years ago after selling the company or whatever.
      – If there is any additional equipment/software needed, what the requisition process is. Do they have full admin access to their computer and can install whatever programs they need? Or are they only allowed to install from a central hub and need approval to get additional software installed?
      – Are remote workers required to have their camera on for meetings?
      – intro to the software/resources they will be using/ their credentials for all of them. Other helpful resources–like if you use something like JIRA for ticket tracking make sure they are introduced to the system, but if they’re doing like code commits and can choose command line vs any GUI they want.
      – Are there any free tools that are prohibited because of privacy policy/IP/proprietary information reasons? (Some tools if you use the free version the vendor can see your work but paid version your info cannot be seen by the vendor)

      1. TiffIf*

        Also with introducing people–what Time zone they are in! I have team mates spread across the US and internationally. Earlier today someone said “Can we reconvene at 4:30?” I had to ask which time zone they were in so I could figure out what timeslot that was on my calendar (for me it was 2:30).

  117. Cookies For Breakfast*

    After putting it off for some time, I updated Linkedin with my new job. That prompted likes and comments, and a few former colleagues I’m friendly with sent a private message.

    My former boss (who was fired before I left OldJob) also messaged me privately. I put a smiley face on while working together, for the sake of staying employed, but he was exhausting to work for and was partly the reason I burnt out. I don’t want to stay in touch now we don’t have work in common.

    I already ignored a “hey, how are you” message a few months ago, as I suspected he’d follow up asking for a reference, which I wouldn’t have felt comfortable giving (I also would never trust him to be my reference and can rely on other people) .

    Part of me wants to ignore him again, but would it be better if I sent a simple “thanks, hope you’re well!” back out of politeness, after all? Last time, I was barely active on Linkedin. Now it’s clear I’ve been online and interacting.

    1. ferrina*

      Up to you. If it makes you feel better to send a simple message, do it. If you think it’s better to not reply, that’s fine too! Plenty of people don’t reply to LinkedIn messages- maybe they get a million of them and a message gets lost in the clutter, or maybe they were only on LinkedIn for a minute to do a specific task and now that the task is done they’re off doing other things.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I would honestly not bother responding, it’s easy enough to pretend you didn’t see the message and also common enough that it’s not really rude or weird.

      1. Cookies For Breakfast*

        Yeah, I wish Linkedin had a feature that allows marking messages as read without seeing the content on the side of the screen. The moment I’m able to read someone’s words in full, is the moment guilt about ignoring them begins to kick in!

    3. ecnaseener*

      You don’t even need to wish him well if you don’t want to – just “thanks Bob!” is better than nothing.

    4. Alexis Rosay*

      Feel free to ignore. I think it’s super normalized on LinkedIn to ignore people compared to on other platforms. If you feel guilty, set a reminder to yourself to respond in 3 months saying, “Oh hi! I just saw this message.” That’s happened to me a huge amount of the time I’ve messaged people on LinkedIn because most people don’t log on very often.

      If he’s really bad, I personally think you should also feel free to block.

      1. Cookies For Breakfast*

        Thank you! Not that bad, luckily. Just bad enough that I don’t see myself ever wanting to discuss my career or life with him, or be associated to him by others. He always acted as if he was uniquely well placed to give me advice, and…nope. We have very different styles, and I’ve seen enough of how he works to not trust him. I can easily let texts and DMs slide for months (shaky mental health to thank here), so your suggestion resonates!

  118. Anon today*

    Looking for advice/reality check especially from women/people with invisible disabilities in tech. The head of my department is really committed to having our upcoming department-wide team building event be going to a sporting event at a stadium that is:

    – a 45 minute (at least) drive from the office
    – in a busy downtown with very little parking nearby
    – in an area of the country that doesn’t have good public transportation
    – located in a city with high violent crime rates, especially in that downtown area
    – located in a city that most of the department is not at all familiar with (since most of the team is remote and will be flying in)

    and:

    – we’re not allowed to travel during the work day for this; we’re supposed to fit any travel in around our 8 hour workday, but it’s in the middle of the week
    – the event will end late at night, like 10 or 11 pm
    – this is not required but will definitely damage my reputation as a team player if I don’t go

    I have anxiety issues in crowded places, chronic fatigue issues and low vision at night, but no real diagnosis yet for anything other than the anxiety. So a) I think it would be logistically difficult to request formal accommodations and b) I don’t feel like disclosing and opening myself up for discrimination for a team building event that is not even related to a core duty of my job. But this makes all the above sound really exhausting and difficult to me.

    So, I tried to dance around the issue which is really that I don’t feel this is accessible for me. I tried to bring up that it will be difficult for out of towners to get to this event from their hotel near the office and was told very dismissively that we’re all adults, so of course everyone will be able to figure it out. I also tried to bring up that sporting events can be exclusive for women in male-dominated fields like ours, so then my department head said of course the team building event isn’t really about sports, it’s just about hanging out together and the sporting event will have great food. When planning other team building events, I’ve also brought up a few times that events after work are difficult for me and lunchtime works much better for me, to which my boss said, of course he understands that, but many others on the team prefer to go to events after work.

    So I don’t know, I guess I’m asking is this unreasonable of me to find this so difficult? I’m remote, but willing to make it go right to get into the office (a 1-hr drive from me) when needed during my normal hours or even after hours for real emergencies. But it’s really annoying to me to be asked to go to events that feel like a burden for me when they’re not even really necessary. This is also just the latest event I haven’t been able to go to, so I think it’s beginning to affect my reputation. And, do you think it’s time for me to request formal accommodations despite the risks since my boss is dismissive of my needs when they’re phrased as preferences?

    1. rock and roll saved my shower*

      – we’re not allowed to travel during the work day for this; we’re supposed to fit any travel in around our 8 hour workday, but it’s in the middle of the week
      – the event will end late at night, like 10 or 11 pm

      deeply confused at how realistic the planners were about how this is going to work, especially since there’s limited parking in that location.

      But aside from that, yeah, this would be Not Possible for me to do. If nothing else, ending at 10-11pm just will not work with my sleep schedule.

      You are not alone in finding this a gigantic burden.

      I wish you luck with accommodations.

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      No ideas, but sympathy.

      I don’t see how watching a baseball (guess) game could be team building. Some would be very interested in watching the game, and others just talking to co-workers.
      And with the travel time restrictions, that makes it even harder.

      Is there anyway that you could leave the game early, and so get your full night’s sleep. The snarky person in me would suggest a book club or a needlework class as team building methods

      1. Raboot*

        > I don’t see how watching a baseball (guess) game could be team building. Some would be very interested in watching the game, and others just talking to co-workers.

        I dunno, doing an activity that allows for talking casually with your coworkers is pretty much what I expect from morale events. A chance to get to know people better in a chill setting where nothing much is required of you. Being after hours 45 minutes away from the office with limited parking is the problem imo, not the activity itself.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “So sorry about the late notice, but I can’t possibly attend tonight *cough cough* — I was really looking forward to it *cough cough*”

    5. Rosengilmom*

      A midweek, off hours event 45 min from the office? Ridiculous. Definitely you “do not drive at night”, and if pushback mentions commuting in the dark, that’s your only exception for familiarity. Baseball has day games, and busses from the office can be chartered.

    6. ABK*

      Would it be possible for you to attend for part of the event? If you could get to the hotel, maybe you could take an Uber or Lyft with another person who is attending the event, and then call for a ride back when you’re ready to leave? If you’re totally unable to go, then I would agree with the other commenter who said that you could RSVP that you will be there and then have a last minute excuse not to go. I’m sorry you’re in this situation.

    7. RagingADHD*

      You already know this is optional, so the thing you are trying to manage is optics / perception.

      The thing is, Boss isn’t being dismissive of your needs. He has no idea that they are needs at all. As long as you couch this as preferences, you are making it sound increasingly unreasonable that your preferences should trump the boss’s.

      Particularly when you try to come up with reasons why your coworkers can supposedly fly in on a plane, book a hotel room, but are incapable of calling an Uber from a hotel to a major tourist attraction? Or that it’s wrong to do a pretty standard type of event that a lot of people-of all genders- actually like.

      That’s the kind of thing that’s going to hurt your credibility worse than skipping the event.

      You can’t change your boss’s perception without changing the narrative. Right now, the narrative is something along the lines of “Anon today hates sports and thinks they are only for boys, so she doesn’t want to come. And she’s trying to stop anyone else from enjoying it either by shooting down the whole idea.”

      So I think it behooves you to disclose that this is a real burden for you in concrete ways. Your boss is far more likely to perceive you as a team player who unfortunately couldn’t make it, if you tell him that you actually have health reasons why this is inaccessible for you. Trying to convince him that it’s inaccessible for everybody else isn’t going to work, because its not true.

  119. AnonAnon*

    I feel ungrateful for the card I received from my colleagues on Admin Professionals Day. It was a lovely card signed by my colleagues but all I could think was “If you really appreciate me, why don’t you pay me more?” And I kept thinking about all the times within the past few months where I didn’t feel appreciated by my supervisor, and instead of feeling happy for getting this card I started to cry.

    Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else felt similar on Wed.

    1. WellRed*

      Did you read Alison’s post and the comments on this topic this week? Might be cathartic.

  120. t-vex*

    How do you know your professional certification is kinda bullshit? When they ask you to submit your CE in a goddamn Excel document. Way to raise the professionalism of the industry guys, you’re doin great

  121. A Girl Named Fred*

    Hi folks! Looking for some thoughts on whether to include my current role on a resume. I left my previous job in June 2021 due to a combination of burnout and a toxic environment that absolutely wrecked my mental health and I spent much of 2021 recovering. I started my current role in February 2022, and while I’m grateful to pay bills and work fully remote I don’t like the role itself at all. My coworkers are great, but the job itself is not what was advertised and not something I’m interested in doing (and doesn’t pay enough for the work it turned out to be.)

    I stumbled across a role in a different industry that I’m really interested in and want to apply to. I can’t decide whether to add the current role to my resume or not. Pros: shows I’m working, has a couple transferable skills, and I’m doing well in it despite not liking it. Cons: might seem job-hoppy or raise red flags about why I’m leaving so shortly, haven’t been there long enough for any major accomplishments. For context, the rest of my working experience is three stints of two years each at different companies.

    Would love any thoughts or advice!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      As AAM has written (and hiring manager commenters have agreed), leaving a job after one short stay isn’t job hopping. Hiring managers are looking for a pattern of job hopping.

      Adding to that, there is often a related discussion that norms vary by industry and role. For example, a lot of IT/tech jobs think skills stagnate if you stay somewhere for more than two years. In my field, I’m raising my eyebrows some at three jobs in six years.

      So, how common is that duration in your field? If it’s more normal, then I’d keep it. If two year stays are odd, I’d consider leaving it off. Then again, being employed does tend to give you a leg up, so on balance it might be worth keepomg regardless.

  122. Bronze Medalist*

    About two years ago, I ended up taking a role that I was initially very excited about. It turned out to be a very dysfunctional company. I have personally been verbally abused/harrassed/gaslighted by one of my former managers and clients since working there.

    Its so bad that turnover has exploded in the last six months. Often times, people will leave the org without having another job lined up. We havent been allowed to backfill, so everyone is doing multiple full time roles (including myself).

    Obviously, I am actively job hunting but honestly, all of the postings seem straight up terrible and full of red flags – you can just tell from the role description that you will be expected to work long hours, wear many hats, and do multiple jobs.

    I am terrified of ending up in another dysfunctional environment and being overworked, so I am trying to be selective about what I am applying to. Honestly, it makes me want to take the plunge into working for myself.

    1. Firm Believer*

      I’m curious what industry it is. If they all indicate those things it could just be characteristic of the industry. You mention clients – is it agency work?

  123. Dragonfly7*

    Is anyone else with high school / college students experiencing this, too? And is it showing up in any other industries?

    Prior to COVID, some of my traditional college-aged students would nod while saying thank you, a habit that I’ve also picked up. Since returning, not only has the number of students who do this increased, but some are starting to bow slightly as well. This is across all racial backgrounds in the student body; the only thing in common is the age group.

    I like watching how habits and culture change, and I’m curious what is driving this one. Aside from the increased popularity of anime and manga, I don’t have ideas.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      So I’m not especially around people that age, but I think I do something similar (and see some other people doing it as well). My reasoning/observation is that while wearing a mask, a lot of your facial features and expressions are muffled or hidden, so something as subtle as a nod might not come across clearly. But if you exaggerate your nod a bit, people are more likely to see what you did. Same thing for zoom calls – a nod might be missed but a big nod probably won’t be. And an exaggerated nod is awfully similar to a small bow, or it easily evolves into one over time.

      Just my thought!

    2. OtterB*

      My first thought was that it was a reaction to mask-wearing. If people can’t see your face to see a smile, then making your body language more obvious seems helpful.

      But there might be some pop culture thing I don’t know about, too.

      1. Dragonfly7*

        I hadn’t considered the mask-wearing to that extent, or the habit continuing on for those who have stopped masking. Thanks!

  124. Re'lar Fela*

    I screwed up.

    I’m in an MSW program (or was, anyway–I was dismissed this morning) and my practicum site is also my employer. After my dismissal (which was for poor academic performance due to a number of life stressors which negatively impacted my physical and mental health), I spoke with my supervisor and she was absolutely wonderful and kind about all of it.

    We made a plan to transfer my clients (I was seeing counseling clients in a clinical capacity as an intern, but now that I’m no longer a student that cannot continue) and my job is safe.

    But I can’t figure out how to move beyond this and look my colleagues in the eye. My supervisor recommended that we tell everyone I’m taking a semester off (basically insinuating that it was voluntary), but I don’t know how to explain that to people when they ask why or why it happened so suddenly. I’m going through the appeal process and attempting to secure a retroactive medical withdrawal, which would allow me to return in the fall. However, if that doesn’t go through, I have no idea what I’m going to do (or say). So far I’ve only told my supervisor and my roommate. I’m so embarrassed to tell anyone else at all (part of the reason that I struggled so much is that I don’t tend to open up about my struggles and I *certainly* never ask for help. So telling people that I’ve failed is almost worse than the failure itself). I have a therapist, but I’m embarrased to tell them about this too. I know I need to get over myself and just be honest, but I’m so ashamed.

    I’m not really even sure what I’m asking, but I have a splitting headache and I feel like I’m going to throw up, so I needed to get this out somewhere.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      So…let’s put some distance on this. Say you have a coworker in another department. This isn’t someone you work with often, but you and he have a passing “nod and wave, see you at the staff meeting” relationship. You have no idea the quality of his work.

      It turns out he’s leavimg the company and his school program because of health issues. What do you think of him? Are you thinking, “Dang, he should be so ashamed of himself for failing!”

      Or are you thinking, “Oof, poor guy, I hope he gets better soon.”

      Give yourself the compassion you offer others. And I disagree, this isn’t “get over yourself.” This is, “I’m dealing with a big blow to my life and my brain is translating that to life threatening danger because that’s how human biology has evolved and hasn’t caught up yet with modern realities.”

      Be easy on yourself.

      1. Re'lar Fela*

        Well, I can definitely tell that your screen name is accurate! Thank you so much for your kind and wise words. I truly appreciate the perspective and I will do my best to extend myself some grace.

    2. Eff Walsingham*

      I absolutely agree with what Analytical Tree Hugger said. All of it. Be kind to yourself. Go for the retroactive medical withdrawal. Your colleagues will be caught up in their own work and studies, and will feel a vague distracted compassion for your ill health. Try to open up to your therapist, if you feel comfortable with them. They should be able to help you steer through the shame to a place of acceptance. *Then* you can start to make plans for what comes next. But first you need a break. You’ve suffered a loss, and you’ll need to grieve it before you can move on.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Oh, honey.

      Listen, do you think less of your own counseling clients for coming to get help? Surely not!

      If you have enough empathy for all those other people, choose to extend some to yourself. Talk to your support team. You need it.

      1. Re'lar Fela*

        I have to say, I got a good laugh at your screen name because that describes my life perfectly. The Raging ADHD is so real. I did start Vyvanse yesterday, so I’m hoping that will make a difference (I wasn’t able to judge accurately today because of the emotional upheaval, but here’s hoping)!

        Thank you so much for flipping the script for me and for the encouragement to seek support. That’s not something I do easily (or often…or voluntarily), but this is a big enough deal that I’m sure you’re right about that.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I liked Vyvanse. Smoother on and off than Adderall, less of a jolt. You should be able to tell really quickly if it’s helping. Best wishes.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It’s been one of the hardest lessons in life for me. When the going gets tough, learn to accept help from well-chosen people.

      Start now. Your supervisor is helping you. Follow her cue, and let people think it’s voluntary. As to what to tell them, “Oh, I just needed some time off.” If you make it sound like no big deal then that is what it becomes to others. They are just as wrapped up in their own lives as you are yours they really won’t notice that much. Don’t worry about fall until at least half way through the summer. Just decide to let that go for the moment.

      So yes, you do need to tell your therapist. Work on that, that would be a good strategic step. This is more of the accepting help from well-chosen people thing. Perhaps there are things you can work on to lighten your stress load. Even small steps can be meaningful right now.

      I hope you have taken something to help settle your stomach. The emotions do become physical as you are well aware. So I hope you address your current physical symptoms. I think as you start to pull together a plan of some sort that this will look a bit differently to you. You could end up feeling satisfied that you have lightened your load in some manner and you might decide that this time off actually worked for you and not against you.

      Each day take a small step in some manner. And be gentle with you. You really need gentleness right now.

    5. rachel*

      Did the program put you on probation and give you the support that you needed during what sounds like a difficult time? Not knowing you, or much about your circumstances, but having knowledge of higher ed generally and MSW programs specifically, it sounds as though you have the documentation to procure the medical withdrawal- otherwise, perhaps you can report the MSW program to the CSWE for violating the ADA.
      People take semester off all the time, and people transfer grad programs all the time, so you’re not alone in this.

  125. BurnerUsername*

    Just… kind of need everything written out and to get yelled at by a random third party.
    I’m graduating with a PhD in a biology-related field over the summer (pending all my paperwork going through) and have been applying to jobs (obviously). I made it to second round “talk to the team” interviews for one of the positions I applied for; technical support for an engineering company. I didn’t realize I was applying to the engineering side of everything when I did the application; being a biologist isn’t a dealbreaker for them because I’ve been using similar equipment in my work, I would just be purposing it differently. The kicker is I would need to relocate… and it’s 50% travel. I’m assuming I would break up with my semi-serious partner to take the job (dating monogamously for about a year; when we started dating we were both kind of in the “hey let’s not keep going if you don’t see this going anywhere” boat, so it’s not married or whatever, but it’s still a weird grey space); it’s not great, but we kind of knew it might happen if he couldn’t find work when I relocated.
    I just… don’t know if this is what I want. If it were just travel or just relocating, I think I’d be more okay with it, but I’m going into a totally new area, with no outside support network, and then I’d barely be home. I have one more followup interview, where I know I need to get a better idea of traveling, but I’m not sure I’m super gung ho about a totally new discipline in a totally new area where I never get to have a real home. I just don’t know if I should keep pushing through or drop out of the interview process; there’s so much grey and I can’t tell if I’m just nervous about a new job or easily intimidated or if my one brain cell is reuptaking too much of its serotonin when I specifically asked it not to.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I can’t help but notice that you spent a whole chonky paragraph describing what this job would require you to sacrifice or how it would negatively affect your life, and zero parts talking about what you like about this job or anything that excites you about it. So unless there is a whole positive side to this job that you just didn’t mention, I don’t really see why you would take this job.

      It can’t hurt to keep going through the interview process if you’re still interested in learning more, but if the idea of moving, traveling, and going into a new field just sounds awful, there’s nothing wrong with removing yourself and looking for something that fits you better.

      Good luck!

    2. Camelid coordinator*

      I wouldn’t pull out of the process now. There is a lot to learn in the next phase of the interview even if you decide you don’t want the job. Chances are that you’d have to relocate after finishing your PhD, which makes me guess that the travel part is what is getting to you. 50% is a huge amount of travel, and I’d want to know more about the responsibilities and travel conditions. In any case you don’t have to decide everything —like your job, relationship, and where and how you will live, all at once. Good luck!

  126. Lady_Lessa*

    I’ve moved a number of times with only knowing the person who hired me. It can be done, but the travel part would eliminate the job for me.

    good luck in deciding.

  127. Dolores Abernathy*

    After almost five years in an incredibly toxic, demoralizing job, today is my last day of work! I start my new job on Monday. It’s closer to home and the expectations seem more reasonable.

    All any of the higher ups have been able to say is “we’ll miss your cookies,” based on a batch I made for a friendly departmental competition in like, 2018. Nothing about my work, just the cookies I made once. It’s a pretty jarring thing to see, especially considering a friend of mine from another department is leaving as well, and her managers have been much more effusive in their praise, including a little card and gift as she goes. Really makes a person feel good about leaving!

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Congratulations! I hope the new place appreciates you for more than just your cookies.

  128. Middle Name Jane*

    Is it ever worth it to give constructive criticism/feedback to your company during an exit interview? I’m soon leaving an employer because we’re overworked, underpaid, and have stingy benefits. My boss will be the one doing the exit interview. Is it worth it to tell her in a professional way that these issues are why they have a retention problem? Or should I keep my mouth shut?

    And in that same vein, should I leave a Glassdoor review? For context, I work at a really small company and it would be impossible for someone to not figure out it was me who left a review.

    1. Becky*

      Does your boss already know why people are leaving? Or is she blissfully unaware/willfully ignorant that you are not matching the market?

      If it is the blissfully unaware and you have a good relationship and you trust her not to become unhinged, you can put it something like “I am finding our offers don’t match the current market in compensation, benefits and work/life balance.”

      If she already knows–you can confirm it. Like if you’ve discussed the overwork and under-compensation before and she’s tried to go to bat for you but the higher ups are being recalcitrant. “As we’ve discussed before, the compensation and benefits are not keeping up with the market and with those we’ve lost previously the lack of redundancy is causing more stress.”

      If willfully ignorant or anything else (unreasonable person, has a history of badmouthing those who leave, whatever) I’d go with a bland “I’m looking for other growth opportunities.”

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Just one anecdote: When I left my last job, my manager was disappointed but not surprised. We kind of tacitly planned to use my exit interview to point out that one long term employee was a “missing stair” problem. That employee left the team shortly after and the company a few months later. My exit interview probably wasn’t *the* reason, but I like to think it helped make the team.

  129. sarah*

    How do you give the feedback that someone’s low confidence is becoming a performance issue? It seems almost impossible to communicate that without making the problem worse. Start by describing the problem and see if the person connects the dots themselves? Would you approach it differently knowing the person is a woman in a male-dominated field?

    Background: I lead a small team in a niche R&D area. Ellen reports to Nick, who reports to me. Nick and I are both experienced in the niche area, but new to our respective positions. Ellen has been in her role for just short of a year. Ellen and I are the only women on the team.

    Unfortunately, Ellen isn’t developing independence at the rate we’d like to see. Recently Nick told me he was having to manage her closely enough to effectively be doing some of her work, because she’s been slow enough that deadlines are affected. When we give her a new task she reacts with visible stress, even though she has the lightest load on the team. (I had Ellen’s role when I started at this company and I’m confident the workload is reasonable.) She takes a long time repeatedly rechecking work before sharing it, even early in a project when no one expects perfection. When she does share, it’s all “Oh, I know it’s bad, it’s just a draft, I’m sorry” even if it’s fine. Sometimes it’s not fine, but she didn’t ask anyone with the experience to know. She’s hesitant to ask for help in public forums, like help channels on slack, or meetings dedicated to support. She admits she’s afraid of making mistakes, especially in front of others, and has a hard time with criticism. Despite these issues, she’s fantastic at the nice-to-haves of her role (for example, writing great documentation/SOPs) so we want to help her grow in the areas she’s struggling with.

    1. Anon for This*

      I think I would try to focus on the behaviors, and the impact of the behaviors, rather than the confidence – plus, try to give specific measurable goals. I struggle with some of the same things as Ellen (and am also a woman in a male-dominated field) and I’ve sometimes been told to be more confident but it really wasn’t clear to me what needed to change: 1) ask fewer questions? 2) speak in a more assertive tone? 3) something else?

      And how do you measure that or know how you’re doing? It also really isn’t a confidence issue for me per se, so that wasn’t helpful to me. I just had terrible anxiety issues, was very burnt out, and had baggage from previous jobs where my small mistakes were exaggerated and publicly ridiculed, which frankly I had to go to therapy for.

      So for example, I would set goals for how many tasks she completes per week, since that’s easy to measure and seems to be having the greatest impact. I would also try to coach her on specifically how to introduce her work when sharing it and / or push back on self-deprecation in the moment. You could also tell her you’d like her to use the public forums more and then re-route her to the public support forums when she asks you questions.

      That’s what I would personally find helpful from Ellen’s POV, but to be fair, I’m not a manager.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Agreed, focus on the behavior not the perceived personality trait. She’s working way too slowly because she won’t turn in anything less than perfect — be specific about naming that pattern and what you need from her instead. She doesn’t ask for help from her team, to the point that she sometimes turns in “not fine” drafts of projects because she didn’t check what she was supposed to be doing — name that pattern and what you need instead.

  130. Allura Vysoren*

    Question for people who knit, crochet, or do something similar in work meetings: How did you get started? Did you ask your manager for permission? How did you decide that it would be safe and you wouldn’t be judged as disrespectful or distracted?

    1. Rara+Avis*

      Many many years back crafters were called out for knitting etc. during meetings, along with people on their laptops or phones. There was immediate pushback and the administration backed off their statement that crafting was rude. But some people perceive it as not paying attention, I guess. It’s also highly gendered.

    3. Allura Vysoren*

      I should note that, for me, I’m starting a fully remote position. If the culture leans toward video-off, then I’m just going to do it. If it’s video-on, I’ll wait until I’m more established before I make a decision but no one would be able to see what I’m doing regardless and, depending on the project, I’m pretty good at just not looking.

      I hate being in video meetings without something to do. In my previous job, I just kept working through most of them because, if I didn’t do something, I’d zone out constantly.

    4. Rainy*

      I think when people already know that you have to fidget to pay attention, it isn’t an issue. It’s when you seem like you are doing it because you need to finish this baby sweater rather than because otherwise you’d be doodling or tearing small pieces of paper into even smaller ones or bouncing your knee until everyone! just! wants! you! to! stop! that it becomes a problem.

      2. Pam Adams*

        I keep various small polished stones near my screen- they are great to fidget with.

  131. Clueless #26*

    I keeping running into disconnect between in house recruiters and hiring managers. I do a phone interview that goes great and I’m told a role is more big picture. Then I do the second interview and find out the hiring manger needs a specialist. I could do both but it totally throws me off in the interview. One interview got so bad, I had to speak up and explain why i was obviously confused. Which just felt like i was throwing the recruiter under the bus.

    1. PollyQ*

      You’re not throwing someone under the bus by accurately reporting what they did. The employer, collectively, is doing something badly by having their recruiters misrepresent the jobs, which is only making things hard for themselves as well as wasting your time. And really, what’s going to happen to the recruiter? Most likely, they’ll be told, “Hey, cut that out,” and nothing worse. Or perhaps the information isn’t getting passed on to them correctly. Either way, letting them know what’s happening should be helpful.

  132. Shadowind65*

    I’ve tried researching an answer to this, but my Google Fu is failing me.

    Because I live in a small town in Illinois and don’t currently have a vehicle, I’m searching for remote only jobs. There’s TONS of them on Indeed.com, but I get so, so many rejections. In addition to maybe not being as qualified as I think I am, I’m guessing it’s because the companies only want to hire in certain States. Understandable.

    But whyyyyy, oh wy, do they not take a few seconds to add “We are only hiring for the following states’ then list them? It would save a lot of their time and that of job seekers. Or am I just expecting companies to be logical and do something that makes sense?

    1. Cj*

      I think the most likely issue is that you are now competing with people across the country, and not just in your local area.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I don’t know why they don’t add a statement like that. Trying to get HR to even edit the text of our job posting to say “remote” is like pulling teeth. (“It’ll be tagged as remote!” And that’ll look like a mistake if the description still says “office environment”!)

      But yeah I would focus on jobs based in your state and neighboring states, for best chances of being eligible.

    3. Allura Vysoren*

      I searched for a remote position from August 2020 until April 2022 when I finally landed one and this was the bane of my existence. This, and jobs that were listed as being remote when they were actually hybrid or not remote at all. I even had a phone screening where the recruiter waited until the END to say “I see you’re in Ohio but we’re only set up to hire candidates in X and Y, would you be interested in moving?” to which the answer was “No.” Some companies do list the states that they’re equipped to hire in, but they are the minority.

      I’d recommend trying LinkedIn as well as Indeed. I had way better luck with the former.

    4. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      Yeah, this is very frustrating!
      It’s not totally the company’s fault because some are not setup to have agreements in all states for remote workers, but it would help tremendously if the listed the ones they DO hire in!

      > Try some of the remote-only job boards, even if there is a small fee to join.

      > Push for a screening call BEFORE you commit to any interviews and make sure you are clear you are only interested in truly remote positions. Unfortunately with remote, the old adage about “getting them interested in you first” may not apply as much because you’re looking for something really specific and 100% remote. I think it’s best to get this out of the way first, even if it removes you from the candidate pool.

      > Some roles lend themselves better to remote. Sales, call center/customer support, coding, web development, graphic design, writing, etc., are easier to make remote a reality. Not sure what you’re applying for? Are they actually good remote roles to begin with? Or just roles the company may have shifted due to the pandemic?

      > Apply at large companies with national footprints or large field service or satellite office presences. My company does hire in all states because we have technicians in all states. Think biggies like Amazon, UPS, FEDEX, Xerox, Cisco, XPedex, etc., that are everywhere.

      > Agree that for smaller companies, stick to your state + surrounding states. A company with a Chicago headquarters might be more open to remote as long as you’re still in Illinois for example.

      It takes time!

      1. Wordybird*

        I haven’t found Indeed very helpful in searching for remote work as it’s most often there that you will get companies advertising “remote” work that really isn’t, etc. That’s where a lot of the sketchy/scummy companies advertise, too. Try remote/remote-friendly websites like Idealist (non-profits), AngelList (start-ups), Remote.co, Remotive.io, Dynamite Jobs, and WeWorkRemotely. LinkedIn can be hit-or-miss.

  133. Asking for a ... okay, me*

    How do you believe that you’re employable when you have a long history of relentless rejection?

    I do have a job (call it vicuña groomer, it’s a pretty niche field) at a company that would walk over hot coals to keep me. But getting there was … I’d prefer the hot coals, thanks.

    Admittedly my CV was pretty rotten, thanks to long-term health issues followed by a family member’s terminal illness. I had several volunteer roles (no interview required); one casual Christmas job at a major chain drafting large numbers of warm bodies (dumped from the roster without explanation before Christmas even arrived); one temp admin job (only because the hiring manager was the husband of one of my late mother’s care workers); another Christmas job (ad on Gumtree, no interview required).

    In the meantime, multiple people promising help then ghosting, and a number of rejections well into triple digits. Hell, my current job began with a rejection – I got a foot in the door via data entry solely because the owner adored my cover letter.

    I thought I was over it, but I’ve just seen two coworkers in as many months walk right into amazing new jobs with minimal effort. (Fergus was just casually checking out the market and got snapped up, Valentina was referred by a friend.) It’s been like having an old wound flayed open and salted; being in close proximity to the easy success I could never emulate is reviving memories of that loooooong spreadsheet of radio silence and rejection, and of being terrified to the point of panic attacks as to how I would survive on my own. I feel lower than dirt and worried for my future all over again.

    Yes, I have a vastly better CV now. But I still don’t have an instantly likeable personality like Fergus, or skills and friends like Valentina, or a clear career path like either. (Vicuña grooming – niche field, and one I fell into by accident, liked, and stayed.) Okay, I clearly have some skills, since I’m good at what I do and sometimes even believe that, but I’d be hard-pressed to define or explain them. I don’t form professional contacts outside the company as it’s a wholly backroom role, I have no surviving family, and as for friends … aside from the miracle that is my boyfriend, seriously, no. I’ve been unpopular all my life, and while my colleagues don’t mind me they also don’t include me; it was nearly five years before I discovered after-work drinks were a semi-regular event, and I know I’ve been gossiped about more than once. I’m not the sort of person 99.99% of people truly like, or want to keep in touch with, or are willing to help.

    Or employ.

    For now I’m happy where I am, when I can ignore society’s expectation that I have Goals and Ambition and Career Plans. I don’t have another field I was always aiming for (like Fergus); I haven’t reached the limits of what I can learn in my current role (like Valentina); and I can’t imagine where else I would fit even as well as I do here. But sooner or later I’ll have to move on, and what used to be a niggling back-of-the-mind question about how I’d ever manage it is now a major concern. If jobs go to personable and/or well-connected hot properties like Fergus and Valentina, where does that leave me?

    How do I shut my brain up? How do I believe that my current boss isn’t a once-in-a-lifetime outlier and someone else will absolutely want to hire me one day? Or that there is any other job I could even do? One that won’t require years of odd jobs and rejection to obtain? Is there anything I can do to counterbalance being a lifelong outsider whose only real professional experience is in vicuñas, of all things? (Feel kind of bad even asking when many other people here have worse and more immediate problems…)

    Phew … nice to start the weekend with a little catharsis.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I…relate to so much of this :D

      My recent job search also hit triple digit rejections, not terribly popular at work, do good work but couldn’t tell you what I do well, etc.

      A few questions: First, do you have to move on? It’s more rare these days, but staying and making a career at your current job *is* an option.

      Second, are there other vicuña groomers out there? Where do they work? Make a list of those companies and keep it handy it handy in case you do decide to change companies. And maybe even check out their LinkedIn profiles, see what they before or what they do after, to brainstorm options for the future.

      I guess this is my long winded way of saying, instead of trying to shut up my brain, I lean into it and use the Stoics approach to map out worse case scenarios and plan how I would handle them.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Too much of what you have here rings true to me.

      I think one of the biggest misconceptions I carried was that jobs came about because of close relationships such as family and friends. Boy, was I wrong. Matter of fact, in my life, close family and friends were the LEAST helpful.
      It was the people in the outer circles that were the most helpful. Once I stopped looking at my nearest and dearest, I got a lot happier. Start looking at people from volunteer work, neighbors, people who you cross paths with on a fairly regular basis.

      In my early working years, I took a lot of temp jobs. That led to… more temp jobs. Try to get out of this pattern. One thing to consider is taking 2 or more part-time jobs with an eye on finding something different in the next few years. I think it helped me to be able to show a longer term working relationship with a company. I know it helped my psychologically.

      How do you shut your brain up?
      There’s lots you can do here. Understand and keep at the forefront of your thinking that in some very difficult ways life has not been fair to you. You are not comparable to your two friends. You are unique and we all are. Congratulate yourself for what you have done RIGHT. If this sounds all foreign to you, then you need to immediately start the practice of saying kinder things to yourself.

      I suspect there is plenty of what I call stinkin’ thinking going on here. Well this happens when life delivers some hard blows. Invest in you, get interested in getting nutrition, water and rest in to your daily routines. If our bodies are not fortified, then neither are our minds. Brains need vitamins, minerals, water and rest on a daily basis in order to function and to develop a life plan– eh, even a five year plan requires EFFORT. Fuel the brain. A tired, unfueled brain will go on-and-on like cranky pants, as you show here. You are pretty harsh on you. Remember if you can’t say it to a friend then you shouldn’t be saying it to yourself, either. (“Sally got a cushy job, so why didn’t I?” Translates in to, “Friend, I got a cushy job so why didn’t YOU?’ You’d never say that to a friend, right?)

      You might benefit from counseling for a short bit to try to sort where to go next in life.

      You say you have skills that are hard to describe. Okay this is probably one of the most brutal things I am going to say to you: Figure out how to describe them. Open up a blank word doc and start a list. Keep the doc on your desktop so you can quickly add things as the wording becomes more apparent. There are common threads you have carried through out your jobs- maybe you are very organized. Or maybe you are the only one who could figure out the answer to Big Problems. Or maybe you simplified things to others could easily maintain something. We all bring something to a job that is uniquely ours. Look for it, it’s there. It took me months to really work my list into something. BUT- with each week it got easier and easier. It was like a dam breaking in slow motion and words started coming out.

      Generally speaking if you want something different than what you have had, then you will have to change things in your methods. Go one by one so you can see what is working and what is not. I hate saying this but people reflect back at us what they see us as doing. Ironically, once I got more interested in what other people needed in terms of work, I found more work for myself. Conversations with others helped, but there was also a private change in my mindset. I became less harsh on me, I let myself out of my own jail that I had built.

      While I understand about not being invited for drinks after work, it does sting. I had to face reality which is I really don’t want drinks after work! I want to go home. This is who I am. Sometimes we can remove the sting of things by just accepting who we are. Of everything you mentioned here this probably the least worrisome.

      Gossiping. This is another area where I got huge relief just by simply admitting to myself that people gossip. And there is no way I can stop that. The problem comes in when we start believing that we are some how at fault for their gossip about us, or that we should be able to stop that gossip. It’s better to just breath and accept that fact that people talk. That is what they do. Unless you can tangibly and undeniably see how that gossip is hurting you, then let it go.
      I like to think of an example from my own life. I have a neighbor who tells people X about me. People who spend oh- five minutes- talking to me KNOW and can SEE I am not interested in X at all. So when my neighbor starts in on her rumor mongering, people laugh right in front of her as she is talking. She discredits herself even more than she is already discredited. I realize that people tell me things and I have caught myself thinking, “Well I know that is not true.”
      In order for gossip to have power, we have to grant it that power. Decide gossip has no power in your life. If you can’t get there via this road, then decide, “I still have to eat and pay the bills, regardless of what gossiping goes on.”

      Last. “For now I’m happy where I am, when I can ignore society’s expectation that I have Goals and Ambition and Career Plans.” What you actually need is a plan to keep yourself sheltered and safe. Forget about society’s expectations and over-write that with what you actually need to take care of you. This should lead you to a practical list and hopefully to practical action steps to get there.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Being likable and being able to connect with people are skills, and they are learnable. Nobody is born with them. They learn them through modeling, practice with feedback, and instruction / correction.

      Maybe you don’t have strong skills in this department, but (unless you are actually mean and hateful in your heart) it isn’t because you are just “not the sort of person people like.” Maybe you had poor models, inadequate instruction, or insufficient practice. Maybe you have an unidentified issue that puts social interactions into “hard mode” for you.

      A lot of people learn these skills in childhood, but it take years and years because little children are TBH kinda dumb. They are also inherently narcissistic and have poor impulse control. Adults who want to learn how to make better and more meaningful connections with people can learn it much quicker.

      If your job has an EAP, or your health insurance covers behavioral health, find a provider. Some stuff you said is stuff that should 100% be discussed with a professional:

      -panic attacks
      -feeling lower than dirt
      -frightened of the future
      -can’t turn the brain off from intense repetitive worries
      -no social support except significant other
      -can’t believe boss’s approval is sincere or represents reality

      You sound very, very down and those are all symptoms and risk factors that a pro can help with, as well as helping learn to build positive connections that could open up future job prospects.

      1. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

        I don’t often reply to posts like this. It’s not because I don’t care, but some things are just beyond a career help board like AAM and the realm of normal workplace dramas.

        LW is being INCREDIBLY hard on themselves here. I guarantee they are not “unlikeable” and it’s painful to hear they think so.

        RagingADHD is absolutely right that some of the things you said need to be discussed with a professional and beyond this board. There is nothing wrong with seeking professional help to deal with these feelings and you definitely do not need to accept that feeling like this is something you must accept about life and the working work.
        Please seek a professional who can help you work through this.

    4. Product Person*

      My story may be able to help you reframe your problem.

      See, I have an impecable resume. Of the type that makes recruiters from companies that most people wants to work for to contact me and offer to fly me to California to discuss a role, and when I say no, ask if they’d reconsider if I could be fully remote.

      Now, why am I telling you that? Because 9 out of 10 times I ignored the recruiters trying to woo me and instead sent my resume to much less famous / attractive companies (because their mission aligns with my goals), I didn’t even get a reply!

      I’ve resigned myself that it’s way easier for me to develop a good network of well-connected friends who, when they leave my employer, will want to reach out to me when a job opening that fits my profile opens up. Plus, maintain a good relationship with recruiters who work on my field. When I’m not looking, if they ask if I’m interested in pursuing an opportunity, I don’t just say no, I go above and beyond to see if someone in my network might be a good fit and make the introduction.

      And finally, I keep an active profile in LinkedIn, providing answers to questions that appear on my feed that align with my expertise, publishing an article with lessons learned from time to time, etc. As a result, I’m constantly listed in search results when recruiters are looking for candidates with my profile.

      I’ve resigned myself that I may never get a job based on an online application. But that’s OK, I still have plenty of opportunities coming my way through those other means. And when it’s a former colleague or a recruiter coming after you, you’re no longer risking your application being ignored among hundred submissions.

      1. Product Person*

        I should also add: I’m a very task-oriented person who rarely makes friends at work.

        But what I do well is help any time I can. Someone is struggling with some software code and posts on Slack if anyone can help? If I’m not busy I will at least try, even if I’m not super knowledgeable in that particular problem.

        If I am approached about an interesting job and don’t want to pursue it, I will let people in my network know of the opportunity. (In fact, I often share the opportunity even when I am going to interview for the role.)

        Being helpful =/= making friends, but that’s how for the past 10 years I never had any difficulty finding new jobs.

        In fact, a former colleague from 3 jobs ago just wrote me to ask if I’d be interested in a role in his company he thinks would be perfect for me. Getting jobs this way is not always perfect: often I can’t time my departure from a job so it only happens, say, after I got my annual bonus. This is because the opportunities come when they come, not when it’s convenient for me.

        Still, if you are like me and hear crickets when sending an application without a referral, my strategy may very well work for you as sell.

  134. Nervous New Grad*

    I know I’m a bit late, but I have a casual question. How unprofessional is it to talk about going to concerts/taking time off to see concerts? I’m an avid concert-goer and I sometimes like to bring it up a concert I saw in small talk since many of my team members enjoy the same genre of music I do, plus it’s common for us in small talk to mention fun things we did over the weekend and whatnot. I’m considering using PTO for a couple of concerts and have already done so once. I’m pretty frugal with my PTO and generally only use it for concerts that would involve some level of travel (I live a couple hours from a major city where the majority of tours play in my state) and/or in some cases getting to meet the band ahead of time. Even if I didn’t need to take any time off for a concert, I enjoy bringing it up in small talk because hey, it’s a fun and interesting thing I did and makes for good small talk! I guess I’m just self-conscious about the possibility of it becoming too much or being labeled a party animal? I’m the youngest member of my team and the only one who is unmarried and has no kids, so I don’t want to seem too frivolous, it’s just something I like to do in my free time!

    1. Rick T*

      It is something you enjoy. Don’t feel bad about sharing it. Besides, some of your older co-workers may have cool concert stories to share.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I think the frequency of when you make mention and the level of detail are factors here. Almost any topic if discuss (hammered on) regularly can wear on people or cause them to raise an eyebrow. And the way the topic is handled by the speaker also matters. For ex: I don’t mind hearing that someone went to a friend’s party on Saturday. That’s cool. But I really don’t want to hear about their substances, poor behaviors and their exhaustion on Monday. That’s not cool.

      And as always, watch your audience. If you see their attention drifting, take that cue to move on to a different topic.

      To me, it would be interesting to hear something like, “I saw X in concert this weekend. And they were really on top of it- they did [a, b and c songs]. And they even did an encore. The audience ate it right up, it was a great time.”

    3. RagingADHD*

      Traveling to see bands is a very common thing that a lot of people do, if they can. It’s no more unprofessional than any other hobby.

      The dividing lines of professionalism are around:

      -how much work time you devote to personal chat vs getting work done

      -whether you dominate every conversation with it, or never talk about anything else

      -whether you repeat the same anecdotes over and over until people get sick of hearing it

      -whether you steer the conversation to bring it up

      And so forth. The same applies to any hobby. It’s not the topic, it’s the behavior.

    4. Allura Vysoren*

      My former boss would take a solid week of PTO to go to music festivals. Most of my PTO goes to anime conventions. It’s not unprofessional to talk about taking time off to do things you enjoy and I doubt anyone would see it that way unless they’re more conservative and you’re talking about, say, Burning Man.

    5. Delta Delta*

      I do this. Sometimes if my favorite band plays in – let’s say NYC for 4 nights over New Years (or Earth Day, as the case may be), I use vacation time for that and also let that double as a trip to that place.

      I did work someplace once where I got sort of mocked for doing this and for using vacation time for certain big sporting events. Finally once someone sort of chidingly asked where I was going on vacation and I said I wasn’t saying anything to anyone about where I was going. Came off as a bit of a surprise but I didn’t have to explain why I was seeing that band again for the 80th time.

  135. Teacher to Nonprofits*

    To connect with a letter posted the other day about test assignments in job interviews: they’ll often say something like “This should only take you an hour”. I can definitely do a version of it in an hour, but usually put in 2 hours to make it more polished. But I have a suspicion that everyone else is taking way longer on these assignments! Can hiring teams tell when someone is putting too much time in? Is that annoying, or does it show initiative? I just don’t have the time to commit multiple hours to each of these assignments, but I don’t want to get shown up by candidates with a more open schedule.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Can hiring teams tell when someone is putting too much time in?

      Oftentime, yes.

      Is that annoying, or does it show initiative?

      It depends on the role. Sometimes, I need someone who is able to slap something together and can let go of it, because I need “good enough, moving on.” Other times, I do need someone who will go through with a fine tooth comb.

      I don’t know if you’re being outmatched by the latter group who can commit more time. I did lose out on a role where I was told it was fine if I didn’t finish (lies, they were shocked I didn’t finish the assignment they estimated would take 4-6 hours and instead outlined what I would do to fininish the 5th and 6th pieces). On the other hand, I’ve had interviewers ask and seem to accept how much time I put into an assignment (which wasn’t my best, but it was decently polished).

    2. fhqwhgads*

      In my experience, if we say it should take an hour, then any version you come up with that took more than that – be it good or bad in the end product – is not what we wanted, because part of what we’re after is “a candidate who can give us this within an hour”. So if your one hour version is worse, we’d rather know that. Giving us something perfect that took two hours doesn’t show initiative; it’s saying you can’t do what we need in the time we need it.

  136. Pepper Potts*

    I’m now re-thinking every social interaction I had at work. I work for a medium-size company and have been here for 3 years. I’ve enjoyed the job for the most part and really enjoyed my co-workers. My team is a team of experienced professionals, albeit some of us are earlier in our career than others. My larger department as a whole is fantastic as well. I (think) I’ve gotten along well with people.

    I was recently given feedback by my 2nd level manager (my boss’ boss – she’s someone who I have the utmost respect for and have had great mentor-esque conversations with) that people had mentioned to her that I am gossipy. I was floored. I won’t say that I’m not social at work but I’m just floored. I hate the idea that I’ve been coming across as unprofessional. I’m a warm person and I do socialize, but do my best to keep in mind I am in a working situation – not a brunch with my friends. I’m now worried for a multitude of reasons: that my judgment is off, my co-workers who I thought I had positive relationships with all think I’m some pot-stirrer, that they felt unable to bring this up to me, and that my boss’ boss knows about it. I’m embarrassed, paranoid, and wondering what I can possibly do.

    Part of me also wonders if it’s someone overreacting? My 2nd level manager didn’t want to share details as I think she was hesitant to bring it up in the first place, but ultimately thought I’d want to know. How much should I alter my behavior if it’s one whiny person?

    I just feel like I can’t trust my own judgment anyone about who I can trust, what I can say at work, and my control over my own reputation. Any advice?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      This may not be the answer you’re looking for, but here goes:

      Feedback has three qualifications:
      1) It needs to be related to a goal
      2) specific and actionable
      3) based on the giver’s experience.

      I don’t think what you were given qualifies, because at the very least it’s not actionable. So, I say either set it aside or go back to your second level boss.

      “I wanted to follow-up on what you said about me being perceived as gossipy. I was rather taken aback, as that’s the first time I had even had a hint of that impression. Could you please share some more details about why colleagues think this about me? Without more information, I can’t formulate any sort of action plan to course correct and would just be stumbling in the dark.”

      I think how your skip-level boss responds will tell you a lot about how invested (or not) she is in helping you grow and develop.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. I’d almost go back to what is their definition of gossip. Do you talk about other people? Do you share rumors? I am guessing not, based on what you have here.

        I agree about going back to the boss and reopening the conversation. I’d be sure to point out that until you know what exactly is wrong it’s going to be tough to fix it. Eh, if I had been at the job for a while, I might even ask a trusted cohort for some advice on this one. “Do I appear gossipy to you?” Then I’d go back to the boss and say, “I checked in with a few people I really trust to tell me the raw truth and they are saying they do not see a problem with me gossiping.” IF the boss pushes this much further, I’d turn to email, “Dear Boss, this confirms our conversation today regarding a reported problem about me and gossiping. We agreed that [blah,blah, blah].”

        Taking back control can mean being very open and candid about things.

        Yeah, this stuff can be like someone pulled the carpet out from under our feet as we try to walk across the room.
        Decide until you have something actionable there’s not a lot you can do. FWIW, you boss pulled a crappy stunt here. She shook your confidence and gave you no method to resolve the issue to bring yourself back to a good place. How’s your boss over all? I’d be watching for other Crappy Boss Signs here.

    2. Product Person*

      If I received feedback about being gossipy, looking back at my interactions with peers, I’d reach one of two conclusions:

      1) I’d realize that yes, I had been participating in gossip when I told Lisa that Mary was not really sick when she took a sick day, but rather had told me she simply wanted a day off to relax. Or, when I told John that I had overheard Alice tell our boss she is after the same promotion he is. And then I’d take as an action to watch my mouth so I’m not sharing with my colleagues information that should be kept private.

      2) I’d conclude that no, looking back as far as I can remember, I had not started any gossip. I may have commiserated when someone was venting about a rude coworker, or shared with the team that Leah was pregnant when she explicitly asked me to do so in a day she was out to see her doctor. But I cannot recall anything that could be classified as gossip, and in particular, any comment that my colleagues could legitimately interpret as such. In that case, I’d go back to my manager or boss’ boss and explain that I’m confused about corrective feedback that I don’t see applying to me, and ask for concrete examples so the feedback could become actionable.

      If #2, and no solid example was forthcoming, I’d end up shrugging my shoulders and ignoring because most likely ot was one or more colleagues just trying to stir the pot,

  137. PhyllisB*

    I know it’s late in the day so I may not get a response to this. If not, I’ll either email Alison or try again next week. My granddaughter just took a new job at a shop that sells vitamin-enhanced teas.
    They have a tip jar, and the customers also have the option to add the tip to their receipt. Well, the owner not only doesn’t give them the tips added to their receipts, she also doesn’t allow them to have the money in the tip jar. Granted, she’s paying a pretty good wage (I think it’s $10.00 an hour, not sure.) But aren’t they still supposed to receive their tips? Now, I realize this is not an “is this legal” issue, but I am livid on their behalf. If I patronized a store who did this, I would either report the owner or take my business elsewhere. Probably both, Is there any recourse here?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I have called the state Department of Labor with questions like this and found them quick, clear and informative.

      It’s good to brace for the answer you don’t want to hear. One time my question was about my company firing me for getting on a motorcycle. I had been in an accident and lost 6 weeks of work. When I returned they told me if I got on a bike again, I could consider myself fired. I called the DOL and they said this WAS LEGAL.

    2. Maggie*

      I’m pretty sure this actually is illegal or at least in a legal gray area. I would do what the commenter below said and check the legality. Vitamin enhanced tea sounds lot like Herbalife and if she is fact working in An Herbalife storefront I am not at all surprised they’re extremely sketchy

      1. PhyllisB*

        It’s not Herbalife but don’t know the name of it. (Of course, I wouldn’t have put it on here anyway!!) They don’t do table service just counter. I think kind of like a Smoothie King but tea beverages instead.

    3. RagingADHD*

      This is a crappy thing to do, and the workers should tell customers who start to leave a tip that the owner keeps them.

    5. PollyQ*

      In addition to that being clearly illegal, in many parts of the country, $10/hr is not at all a “pretty good wage.”

  138. Jenny Reagan*

    How do I explain durning my interviews being laid-off when a whole part of the HR department was laid off with me?

Comments are closed.