open thread – May 20-21, 2022

by Alison Green on May 20, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Miss. Bianca*

    I have a skip-level meeting with my grand-boss this afternoon. I am a Llama Grooming Manager and trying to get information on the next role up from me (Senior Llama Grooming Manager) and frankly it’s been a frustrating process. For more context, I’ve been with the company for over 2 years and my grand-boss has only been with the company about 6 months. I’ve mentioned to him before that I need this information so I know what I need to work on in order to get to the next level. A few months ago he said he would get the job descriptions for both for me, but then never did. A few weeks ago I sent in a request to HR asking for both job descriptions, when I hadn’t heard anything after a week I let him know and he said he would ask the HR person later that day, but again I never heard back. What makes it extra frustrating, is that I had a manager who refused to go over my 1:1 in detail (so why I got a “good job” instead of an “excellent job” and what an “excellent job” looked like) and only said the difference between the positions was salary…Thankfully he quit a few weeks ago.

    I’m really frustrated at this point. I have a feeling our company doesn’t know how to differentiate between those 2 positions, making it that much harder to make a case for a promotion or more responsibility. Again, I’m not demanding a promotion, but I’ve been with the company over 2 years, have continuously been given more responsibility and am able to lead projects without my guidance so I think it’s fair I’m asking more on what I need to do to get promoted.

    I plan on asking him what he heard back from HR. I also think it’s fair I express my frustration with the lack of clarity on this, is there a way to do so without coming off bratty? If he comes back without clarification between the roles, how should I tell him that I really need him to articulate to me what I need to do to get promoted?

    1. a tester, not a developer*

      If he comes back without clarification, what about writing up what you think the differences are, and making a case that you’re working at the more senior level?

      I know at my company the only real difference between a regular tester and a senior tester was that the regular tester role was one job grade lower than the senior. So if you had been a regular tester for long enough to max out the pay for that job grade and they didn’t want to lose you, you got ‘promoted’ to senior. Senior hadn’t existed until a bunch of us were looking to transfer out because we weren’t ever going to get raises again otherwise.

    2. Murphy*

      I’d think I’d try not to describe is as “frustrating” (though it is and I’d be frustrated to!) but I’d stress that it’s a big priority for you and how important the information is to your career goals.

    3. user4279*

      I need a quick reality check. I work in a profession that’s in high demand (think tech).

      In the past I used to change my job after 1-2 years at every company and companies do ask about that during job interviews, although that also made it possible for me to progress in my career very quickly. It’s not untypical to switch jobs frequently in my field either.

      Now I’m in a job that resulted 1) too junior but also 2) very demanding – the expectation is that I work 12h/day without additional pay. I’m basically super busy but doing silly tasks during which I don’t learn anything. I just got a symbolical salary raise this year despite a very good performance review and an extreme amount of unpaid overtime done. It just covered around 1/3 of the inflation rate. In my field most companies give you +10-20% a year unless they are ok with you leaving.

      I’m thinking about switching jobs since conversations with my bosses didn’t bring anything. At a new company I can get +30% salary straight away. I actually already got an offer like that a few months back but turned it down. I would quit after a 1.5 year at the company. Is that very bad?

      3. KateM*

        When you calculate the pay increase, do take into account that your current salary is for 1.5x full time…

      4. WantonSeedStitch*

        A year and a half isn’t bad. It sounds like your career hasn’t been hopping from job to job without advancing, but instead growing in skills and responsibilities with each new role. Leaving a position after 1.5 years because you aren’t learning anything new and don’t feel like you’re growing professionally–something you’ve always tried to do with each position you’ve held–would sound eminently reasonable in an interview. And really dig into what the responsibilities of a new position would be when you interview, so you don’t get stuck in the same kind of thing again! (Also, as someone in a field where a 3% increase annually is normal…damn, 10-20% per year? I’d have maxed out my pay band ages ago!)

      5. TheRain'sSmallHands*

        I do back end for IT consultants and a lot of our higher end developers consult for this and other reasons. They like to go into a company, stay a year or eighteen months or maybe two – then get out. They like to solve problems and not become entrenched. (I also have a few guys who have been at their client sites going on a decade – so this isn’t universal). They like to be able to say – once their six month or a year initial contract is up “this isn’t a good fit for me.” It isn’t uncommon in IT – although being a regular employee and switching jobs every year or two is a little odder.

        I don’t think its that unusual, its normal right now when people can get easy raised to switch (I was in IT myself in the late 90s when you switched jobs four times over three years and quadrupled your responsibility and pay) and hiring managers in IT tend to have been through it.

      6. Honor Harrington*

        Nope, that’s fine in tech. And given what the tech job market is like now, you should consider asking for more than +30%.

      7. Momma Bear*

        I wouldn’t stay for an arbitrary amount of time if you’re deeply unhappy. In some sectors, 12-18 months is the length of a contract/Period of Performance and no one would blink if you didn’t stay on after that. That said, though, I’d think about what you do want/need other than money and if this company would provide it so you’d be inspired to stay 2 years.

        My company wasn’t able to keep up with inflation this year but I have a decent work/life balance. If the 12 hr days are killing you, then make sure you’re clear about workload with any new employer.

      8. Unaccountably*

        People who are hiring in your industry should have a feel for what the average turnover is like in your industry. Other than that, it sounds like your current job isn’t keeping up with the market. That’s as good a reason as any to leave, and hiring managers should understand it. If they don’t, they’ll probably underpay you too.

    4. David's Skirt-Pants*

      At our company, we are *actively discouraged* from giving out too many “excellent job” vs “good jobs” in our reviews. Others have had corporate come back and say, “I’m sorry, you need to change at least some of those ratings.” It may not actually be personal–it may be the result of bad policy and/or unwarranted bell-curving.

      As for “senior” vs non-senior, taking on more responsibility, getting projects done efficiently and effectively, and setting yourself apart from colleagues are ways to be seen as a natural leader. Do this with a good attitude–if you need to vent about work or workload or whatever, vent to someone outside your workplace.

      If that doesn’t prompt results, apply for “senior” positions at another company!

      1. Unaccountably*

        My company does the actively-discouraging thing and I hate it. HATE.

        I’ve been in my industry for a very long time. I’ve worked at a lot of companies, I know at least 75% of the people in my field, and I know better than my HR department what constitutes excellent work and what doesn’t. Now I’m in a leadership position, and I have the luxury of not having to hire people who aren’t exceptional in the context of the field. The person I have to give “meets expectations” because my expectations were high could probably go to work for another perfectly decent company and get “exceeds expectations” ratings with the appropriate salary increase.

        But too many employers think their business exists in a vacuum and they don’t care what the market looks like or what other opportunities their best employees have. Or they think “exceeds expectations” is a metric that makes sense (whose expectations? How much does the person doing the expecting know about the job? How difficult is the job compared to similar others in the field?) or that is somehow better than “Does an excellent job” vs “Sweet Jesus the number of hours I have to spend managing this person.”

        I could rant about this for a very long time. I wish HR people were expected (ha) to have a broader background than just what labor laws say.

    5. Jopunzi*

      If you can’t get the job description of the next higher level, go the other way. Look at your own job description and identify the items where you do more than that in a definable and significant way. Then use that to argue for your promotion.

      1. Momma Bear*

        This is what I was thinking. Show them what you’re doing outside the scope of your on paper duties.

    6. Sylvia*

      If your organization is large enough, sometimes you can figure out what the job descriptions are for each level by looking at the open positions that they’re hiring for.

    7. Manchmal*

      I think you may be overly focused on the job descriptions, but just having those doesn’t guarantee a promotion. I think the conversation with your boss needs to be more in the vein of “Now that I’ve been doing well in my position as Manager, I’d like to position myself for a promotion to Senior manager. Can we talk about what that path looks like?”

      You might also talk to some people who are in that senior position, and ask them how long they were in your position and what they had to do to get promoted.

    8. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      This is a slightly different perspective, but if your skip level has only been at the company for 6 months, this may just not be a high priority for them right now. One option is to use your skip level 1:1 to focus less on the specific job description, and more make sure you’re on their radar to loop into higher-level assignments.

  2. Kelly Kapoor*

    I have a general question and a specific question for this thread, both related to work-appropriate dressing. Thank you to the AAM community for helping me navigate business casual dress codes!

    I’ll put my specific question in a reply to this comment, because it has Instagram links, and also because I am not sure if this thread is the right place for it :)

    How do you express your individuality in terms of your style (whatever that means in your context – a love of bold patterns, statement jewellery, makeup, body modifications, etc) without it feeling like ‘too much’ or being the thing that you’re known for? I work at a business casual office, but I’m interested to hear from people at more (or less!) formal offices as well.

    Happy weekend!

    1. Kelly Kapoor*

      Here’s my specific question, please feel free to delete if this is not the right thread for it

      Could I get a reality check on whether these ear setups, minus the tragus and forward helix piercings, are appropriate for a business casual office? If they’re not, please feel free to suggest any edits that would make them more so :) planning to show these images to my piercer as inspiration. I currently only have the standard lobe piercings and I tend to wear mid-sized earrings in them, so I want to keep everything else understated.

      https://www.instagram.com/p/CdNtCZsIdTl/
      https://www.instagram.com/p/CdQ9EBwoYnd/

      We are not client-facing and the dress code doesn’t mention anything about piercings. There are other people in the office with body modifications so I’m definitely overthinking this, but I’m wary of being known as the woman with the earrings. Fwiw, I am new-ish here but my boss is happy with my work (also they’re in a different country so they’ll probably never see my ears)

      2. Lilith*

        In my opinion, those are really nice piercings that wouldn’t be especially noticeable at a glance , especially not to the level of being ‘my colleague with the earrings’

      3. Zephy*

        To address your specific question:

        First, you just want the second and third lobe and the helix, do I have that right?

        I think if you keep it subtle you’re good – similar to the jewelry in the pictures, tasteful studs and a simple fine hoop. You might become “Kelly with all the earrings” to folks who don’t interact with you much, like others have said, but you can’t really choose what stands out about you to people and if they never have reason to see your work or really talk to you, there are worse things for them to latch onto as an identifying feature.

      4. Ali + Nino*

        These are super subtle and especially with the dainty jewelry, I can’t imagine anyone noticing or making a big deal about it. Non-lobe piercings are super mainstream now : )

      5. JP in the heartland*

        When I read your post, I was expecting something much more in your face. I looked at the instagram photos you attached. It’s very modest body modification. Cute, really. I wouldn’t think twice about it (and I’m a middle aged female boomer)

        1. Unaccountably*

          Yeah, none of these even stand out to me as notable piercings. I can only see them being an issue if OP is working for some super-conservative religious sect that still isn’t okay with women piercing their ears. Otherwise you have to have your lobes gauged up to 0s before anyone even notices.

      6. Eeyore's Missing Tail*

        I don’t see any problems with those piercings in a business casual office. We’re business casual/casual in my office, and one of my coworkers has more ear piercings than that’s you’re showing. I’d keep the earrings more simple for work, like medium-sized earring in the lower piercing and studs/smaller in the uppers and you should be fine.

      7. Lizzie*

        I think they look fine. They’re subtle, not in your face, and not offensive. And honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever really noticed anyone with piercings like that where I am, or who has or doesn’t have them.

      8. mreasy*

        These are fine even if you include the tragus & helix, unless you are in a wildly conservative office.

      9. Kimmy Schmidt*

        I work in academia (which can be a little more relaxed and ‘out there’), but these are very similar to the ear piercings I have. I don’t think anyone has ever even noticed them, much less commented on them. I think as long as they’re clean, maintained, and don’t pose any kind of safety hazard by catching on things, you’d be good.

      10. WantonSeedStitch*

        I’ll agree with those who say, unless you’re in a super conservative office, or wear really ostentatious jewelry in them, you’re fine.

      11. Actuarial Octagon*

        I think you’d be absolutely fine with these in a business casual office. I work in a laid back west coast city but in a stuffy client facing industry and these would be completely acceptable. And very cute I might add!

      12. Imaginary Number*

        I work in a business casual office that is sometimes customer-facing and requires more formal business attire. I have a tragus, helix, daith, nostril, and triple lobe piercings. I think it’s more about the jewelry choice than the piercing itself.

      13. Tris Prior*

        I think those are really subtle and would be fine. FWIW, I have a rook ring and no one cares or has even noticed it as far as I know. Business casual office in creative-ish field (publishing).

      14. Generic Name*

        I think those look adorable! I have a double piercing in my left lobe, and I’ve thought of getting more. I think it would be totally fine for a business casual office.

      15. Unaccountably*

        I work in a fairly stuffy business-casual-at-least office. I have an industrial and a tragus piercing in my left ear, and a double helix and two forward helices in my right ear. My hair mostly covers them. I honestly do not think anyone has ever noticed in the ten years I’ve been here.

        People jst don’t look that closely at other people’s ears.

        1. Unaccountably*

          Oop, forgot I have a conch piercing in my right ear too. No one has ever noticed or said anything about that one either. Do you know what kinds of piercings the women in your last workplace had? Or the ones in your current workplace? I’m asking because I feel like there’s a little bit of invisible-audience thinking going on here. You and your ears are the main characters in your story, but you’re only side characters in everyone else’s. It’s very unlikely that anyone will be as interested in how your piercings look as you do.

      16. Data Bear*

        Those would be wholly unremarkable in my workplace (scientific research lab).

        They’re the kind of thing where if someone couldn’t remember your name they might say “you know, in Pat’s group, she’s got long brown hair and a bunch of earrings,” but it definitely wouldn’t result in you being The Earring Lady.

    2. Tired Social Worker*

      I take a look at something and determine if it’s appropriate (not too much skin or too sexually proactive) or if it would offend someone. If it checks these boxes it’s okay. Some places have a rule about no clothing with words so this might narrow choices.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think this calls for incrementalism. Your style is what you feel comfortable in, right? But if your style makes everyone in the office gossip about you, that’s not very comfortable.

      So start moderate, and add things until you find the happy medium.

      And I would distinguish strongly between “too much” and “that thing you’re known for”. The second is pretty benign as far as I’m concerned. I like to wear classic mens hats outside – fedoras, homburgs, etc. So it doesn’t bother me that I’m known as the hat guy when we grab our stuff and walk to lunch. Of course, it helps that I’m not self-conscious about it. I like hats, I think I look good in hats, and I really don’t care if there is somebody who has an irrational grudge against fedoras.

      1. Lizzie*

        My office is very business casual, and I wear a LOT of Lilly Pulitzer. I am “known” for my bright prints and colors, even before I got into LP, but not in a bad way. I always get compliments on what I wear. Nothing is too reveling, or tight, etc. either.

        1. Unaccountably*

          Ooh, I love Lilly Pulitzer. I wish I could wear her clothes but bright colors make me look awful and sallow.

    4. CTT*

      To address the “only thing you’re known for” part, there will be some people who will only know you for it if their interaction with you is very limited, but for the people you work with/see everyday, it should hopefully go from “Kelly who always wears bright lipstick” to “Kelly who always wears bright lipstick, likes to go hiking on weekends, and is our in-house expert on [topic].” People will know you for more than just that by virtue of getting to know you more.

      1. Nela*

        I thought of the character Abby Sciutto from NCIS who is “the goth chick” among the straight laced feds in suits, but the main thing everyone knows about her is that she’s an A++ scientist. So having a trademark look doesn’t have to draw attention away from your expertise.

    5. Popinki(she/her)*

      My office is very informal. The office manager shows up in leggings and sneakers more often than not. Most of my clothes are solid color and fairly plain. I use these as a background for some kind of “pop” whether it is a chunky pendant or pin, a bright cardigan, blingy shoes, etc. The trick is to limit it to one big pop or two complementing ones so you don’t look like you got dressed in the dark.

      I also have short hair and a square face so I like big dangly or hoop earrings, as well as bold eyeglass frames. The big earrings are definitely something I’m known for, as they’ve been my jam since high school, but I’m careful to coordinate them with whatever else I’m wearing so they don’t look out of place.

    6. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

      I love having very bold hair colors (pink, blue, purple), but I limit them to an underlayer or chunky highlights and don’t do my whole head. It seems to thread the needle of letting people know I’m a little quirky without becoming a defining quality.

    7. G*

      Fun accents are the way I tend to do this. For instance, my work is v. casual especially footwear-wise, so today I am wearing bright crocs and a black jumpsuit.

      1. Interview Coming Up*

        I originally read this as you doing “fun accents” with your voice and I was like, oh no. Lol.

    8. Murphy*

      I work from home now, but I just do what I want and don’t worry about it (while remaining appropriate and within office norms.) When I was in the office I’d try to do a bit “less” than I would outside of work. Maybe one or two bold things (I also have fantasy colored hair and tattoos that can be visible in some office attire) whereas I might pair more bold things together outside the office.

      The few times I’ve had to go in recently, it was something like a black dress, a bold colored cardigan, and black shoes. Between the cardigan, my hair, and my leg tattoo that was probably enough. I didn’t need to also wear the big black moon earrings or patterned shoes.

      I’m also not worried about being “known” for it though I can understand not wanting the focus to be on your appearance ahead of your work.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      My style is classic and simple—pants, t-shirts, and tailored blouses you don’t have to tuck in. So it’s scarves and jewelry for me. I started collecting scarves a few years ago. They make great souvenirs if you travel somewhere—they’re usually cheap and fit easily into your suitcase, and when people ask where you got them, you can airily say, “Oh, I picked this up in Zanzibar,” or whatever, heh heh. Plus they dress up even a plain outfit.

      I guess maybe I would end up being known as the scarf lady, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

      1. starfox*

        My style is really simple, too… Like, even before I had to dress business casual… I basically dressed business casual. I’m now at the point where I’m trying to make my style more fun…

    10. Liz*

      Be good enough at your job that it doesn’t matter. And also have some common sense.

      In terms of personal expression: I am heavily tattooed and pierced, but when I started my career 20 years ago, I always made sure that no one at work saw the mods. I had a huge collection of cardigan sweaters :-).

      These days, fortunately, there’s less need for all that, though it really depends on your industry and office.

      Everyone at work knows I have tattoos and I don’t bother taking out my piercings, but I still “dress down/cover up” at the office mostly when meeting with outside clients/associates. My industry is both very liberal and very old fashioned (think academic adjacent).

      Regarding “appropriateness”: I tend to go with the general “if I’d wear it at the beach to get a tan” or “if I have to worry about flashing someone when I bend over/sit down”, maybe it’s a bit too casual/naked for the office guidelines.

      Regarding personal style (colors, hair, patterns, jewelry, etc) I don’t see it in my industry as anything people get uptight about. The cooler and more expressive the better.

      I’m glad things have relaxed since I started my career and that you don’t have to look like a drone (if that’s not your thing!)

    11. soontoberetired*

      One bit of advice I received years ago is to see how management dresses, and take clues from there. Strangely, my manager at the time dressed horribly so I used other people. do look at the culture in your office for other clues. I’ve always worn bolder jewelry than other people at work, and it isn’t a bad thing to be known for. the biggest thing is to look put together.

      when my company was “business casual”, our handbook had pictures to help – ie no shorts, no revealing shirts (they liked things with sleeves). the biggest complaint filtered down was people looking messy – aka too big jeans, ripped jeans, so even with the more casual dress code they don’t want people looking like they are out for a day on the beach.

      We also got more relaxes about tattos and piercings. No one cares about tattos as much as they did before, but you need to see how your co workers and managers respond to tattos now. Piercings can very in response, but are also generally more accepted than when I first started working. Again, the biggest thing is to read the office atmosphere now.

    12. angstrom*

      Being known first for being good at your job gives you more freedom with individual style. “Mary, our top expert on llama grooming, who likes to wear bright colors” will get more respect than “Mary, who always wears those garish outfits”.
      Not dwelling on your own style in conversation also helps others focus on your work instead of your appearance. If someone mentions it, acknowledge and move to a work topic. “Fun earrings!” “Thanks! Found them at the craft show last month. Hey, did you ever get that report on….”

    13. Nethwen*

      I gauge by imagining the worst things I have to do for work (e.g. firing someone, publicly responding unexpectedly to negative PR, etc.) and asking myself if I would feel confident doing those things in what I’m wearing. The answer to that has changed as my roles and my confidence have changed.

    14. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I color my hair in bright unnatural colors from the shoulders down, wear bright colored patterned skirts that look like paint factories exploded, wear jean jackets for blazers, and put Disney pins on the lapels of my jackets/cardigans. (I also occasionally wear mismatched same-style shoes – I usually wear mismatched shoes OUTSIDE of work, so if I forget and do it AT work too, then I don’t worry about it too much.) I also have a thousand and twelve tattoos, but most of them aren’t visible in regular clothing. (twenty-something actually, but I forget the exact count at this point.)

      My office is business casual, more or less, but I am a manager, not an individual contributor – I don’t know if that makes a difference for what you’re thinking about. I also work primarily remote and only go in-office about once a month or so. When I was still an IC, our executive director did know me as “that girl with the peacock hair” for a couple years, but I’ve been promoted twice since then so it doesn’t seem to have become an issue :)

    15. Dragonfly7*

      I find that people will know you by the thing they choose to mentally categorize you by, which may not be the same thing for everyone, but getting to know them better will help diversify it. Example: Some coworkers know a colleague in a neighboring department by an apparently annoying behavior, but I have them mentally filed away differently because we grew up in the same part of the country.

    16. Constance Lloyd*

      I reeeally love over the top lipstick and brightly colored eyeliner! At the office, I choose either a bold lip or a bold eye, stick to red, neutral, or berry lipstick OR a jewel-toned purple or navy eyeliner. I pair my one bold makeup look with muted, minimalist, classically professional clothes, like a nice crew neck sweater in charcoal or something. I work for a government agency and a colleague of mine dyes her naturally brunette hair purple. She doesn’t bleach it first, so it’s more subtle but still very definitely purple. The earrings you shared would look perfectly at home in my office.

    17. Policy Wonk*

      Old Fogy who doesn’t have Instagram here, so I couldn’t see the photos. But where I work the standard is: when you meet with someone is the conversation about what you are meeting to discuss, or about your (insert issue here)? So if whatever you are thinking about is distracting, then its inappropriate. If it is simply eye-catching, but people then move on, it’s fine. (Here is mostly comes up with over-the-top tattoos or extreme piercings.)

    18. Momma Bear*

      Business casual is such a minefield. It really depends on the company.

      I wouldn’t even think twice about the earrings you posted in the links. Unusually placed, maybe but those are very low profile and cute. Other things you can do is wear a button up or dress but in a fun pattern or color to show your individuality. Or wear fun shoes. Or unusual nail polish. Etc. You might be “known for” something but as long as it’s not a bad thing, don’t worry about it. “Jim in Accounting with the sleeve tattoo” is still considered a professional and no one really cares other than people ask who his artist was. As long as it’s not outright banned, try it. You’ll soon figure out the line for your particular office.

    19. Stripes*

      I work in a business casual setting and I am 100% The Goth Coworker. I don’t really care, I’m not wearing things that aren’t appropriate on Zoom meetings, but my eyeliner is pretty much always just sharp cat-eye and smokey eye shadow to go with. I’m positive everyone has seen my tattoos on my arms, I don’t think anyone realizes I have about 17 earrings in my ears, and nobody makes comments about my house being very clearly Halloween themed. (They can see behind me in Zoom calls). The HR guy who helped me do onboarding when I got hired is a long haired metal head. Some offices are much cooler about appearances than others.

      One of my previous jobs, I was The Goth Coworker, but never violated the dress code in any way that mattered. (I once got told to stop wearing turtlenecks because they emphasized the size of my chest too much. Miiiind blowing.) That one definitely was more of a stickler for caring about appearances, but ultimately start kind of small and work your way into more “intense” things. I have a cardigan that’s got bats on the collar, so if I was trying to test the waters I might wear that and see what the reaction is. If nothing, add a neat necklace. Maybe try out something super boldly patterned on a Friday? If you’re trying out one new thing, or one article of clothing that might be “out there”, don’t put it with a bunch of “out there” things until you can gauge where you’re going to be comfortable and where the office is comfortable.

      I’ve found, what really helps, is your attitude. Some people who don’t know who you are might refer to you as “Wednesday Addams over there”, or “That one with the Earrings”, but once they get to know you or your work ethic, those comments sort of dwindle away. Once you’ve proven yourself very competent in your position, it’s easier to not have to think twice about it.

  3. Green Snickers*

    I’m looking for hotspot recommendations for Verizon service. I’ll be working from Mac laptop a lot on the bus in NJ for the next few months with either none or very unreliable WiFi and need something that will keep me connected for emails and internet browsing. Don’t anticipate too many video calls but could happen. Trying to save and not pay for the one Verizon is selling me, TIA!

    1. Haven’t picked a user name yet*

      Maybe I don’t understand the question, but I just use my cell phone’s cellular service as a hotspot for my laptop when I need it. I use AT&T but I can create a hotspot in a few clicks and connect my laptop. Granted this would rely on the cellular service you get along the route and how much data you have.

      For calls etc can you use the cellular version of teams or webex to take them directly on you phone?

      1. Sunflower*

        Verizon told me using my phone this would eat up all the data on my plan and paying for the $20 service would be a better choice. How often do you use it? I would be needing it for probably 10-20 hours a week.

        1. Imtheone*

          Our Verizon plan needs to be upgraded for us to get the hotspot option. Very irritating. We are thinking of switching carriers.

        2. Cj*

          I’m a little confused. Are you the OP on this thread and just have a different username for this comment, or somebody else with the same Verizon issue?

          My comment would be the same either way, I guess. I have a Verizon smartphone that is $50 a month (plus all those annoying taxes and fees, of course) and has unlimited text and data, so I can use the hotspot all I want with no additional charges. I’m not sure of that smart phones without unlimited data are all that much cheaper, especially not $20 cheaper that it would make sense to buy if the separate hotspot.

          My husband and I each have this plan, but they are sold as separate plans, not a family plan. Maybe with a family plan you are paying a lot less.

        3. Unaccountably*

          That depends entirely on how much data you’re planning to use over wifi as compared to what your data allotment is now. Is your work something you can download, disconnect, and then upload? Are the files huge? Do you have to be connected to streaming audio or video? There’s not really an answer here that doesn’t require information about how much bandwidth you’d be using vs how much you’re already paying for.

    2. Warrior Princess*

      Slightly off topic but could you ask your workplace if they have anything? Mine has company provided hotspots for when we travel to low wifi places. Yours might have something or be willing to reimburse data charges

    3. Liz*

      I just use my current verizon data plan. There’s a limit, I think, but I just turn on my use my phone as a hot spot setting. (Im in NJ too)

    4. Double A*

      We have specific Verizon “jet packs” with like 15gigs a month. It’s like $100/month, plus you can add a second for $20/month, which we do. (I don’t have a Verizon cell phone). It’s stupidly expensive. But we live in a rural area and while my internet is good, it goes down with some frequency so I need a back up.

      The hotspots are reliable and work well. I’m not sure if this was what you were asking about. However, if you can use your cell phone as a hot spot (maybe upgrade to unlimited data), it would probably work fine and cost less.

      1. Cj*

        I have Verizon internet, but it’s not a jetpack. I think it’s called Verizon LTE. It’s $40 a month has unlimited data since I have a Verizon phone, $60 a month if you don’t have a Verizon phone.

        I’ve never had it go down. A few years ago we had any not a type of Verizon internet that didn’t work worth a crap. I’m not sure exactly what it was, but it had its own phone number and something installed on the outside of the house.

  4. Melanie Cavill*

    Can anyone shed any light on the phenomenon of recruiters/HR/hiring managers being as loud as possible on the phone? They call during business hours, which is understandable, but then it typically goes like this:

    Me (turning my phone down to the lowest possible volume): Melanie speaking.
    Them: HI MELANIE THIS IS BRUNHILDA FROM HR AT GUNTER & GRISELDA INC!!!! WE RECEIVED YOUR APPLICATION, DO YOU HAVE A MOMENT TO TALK???!!!

    I can’t mess with text size here, so the absurd punctuation is my method of emphasis.

    I’m not sure if I’m merely extra sensitive to it because I’m trying to conduct a job hunt while working in-office in a building with few opportunities for privacy, and I do understand none of that is the fault of the person reaching out to me, but it’s starting to be an immediate turn-off. Has anyone else had a similar experience?

    1. calvin blick*

      I have worked in phone sales before. They train you to be very loud so to project your emotion over the phone. The idea is to get you talking and engaged so you don’t just hang up, and showing excitement and enthusiasm helps with that. It might not sound like it matters, but it really does work.

      Not sure why the hiring managers would be loud, but for the first level recruiters and HR phone screen people, that is probably why they are being so noisy.

    2. Binky*

      I bet they’re making a bunch of calls and doing it on speaker phone. A lot of people unconsciously yell on speaker phobe. Annoying, but unfortunately common.

      Can you wear headphones to avoid people overhearing?

      1. Zephy*

        I’m thinking this is most likely and I’ll +1 the suggestion to wear headphones if possible.

      3. Lynn Whitehat*

        I have also seen people do it because they have noise canceling headphones, so they don’t get feedback about how loud they are.

    3. Echo*

      Some people just have a loud “phone voice” (my mom and partner among them). I think it comes from getting used to taking calls on systems that didn’t work very well so it was difficult to hear them unless they talked loudly, and now they’re just used to it.

      1. Unaccountably*

        This is me. People can never hear me over cell phones so I just got used to yelling. I hate it too. I’m going to lower my voice until people can’t hear me anymore and work my way back up to a new normal.

        1. Zephy*

          You were probably holding the cell phone with your finger covering the microphone. The number of people I’ve seen–young people! People who grew up with candybar-form-factor smartphones!–who have no earthly idea how their phones work is staggering. Sound comes out the long hole at the top. Sound goes in the little hole at the bottom, next to where the charger goes. If you talk into the f***ing camera hole and listen at the charge port of course everyone’s going to have a bad time. This stuff is pointed out on the first page of the manual that came with the phone.

          1. Unaccountably*

            Not unless the microphone has moved to the side of the phone, I’m not. And I’ve never seen a young person, or any other kind of person, holding their phone upside down when they talk into it.

      2. starfox*

        I’ve realized that, because I struggle with ADHD-related auditory processing, I have trouble hearing on the phone. Even though that isn’t a volume issue, I’ve realized that I tend to just… scream into the phone because I feel like the other person can’t hear me….

        1. starfox*

          Oh I also talk really fast, so people often ask me to repeat myself, which also ends with me using a loud volume when actually, I could probably just slow down, not…yell.

    4. Sylvan*

      My company’s recruiters sit in cubicles beside each other and speak loudly to hear themselves.

      I don’t think this seating arrangement is great, but it’s not up to me. Just glad not to be part of it!

    5. quill*

      The alternative is “Hi Melanie I’m *mumble* from *mumble, phone ringing, sound of someone shuffling paper* “which is the majority of outside recruiters I have dealt with.

    6. Nela*

      In-ear headphones can eliminate that (if you set the volume to a comfortable level). I always overhear my partner’s phone conversations at normal volume, but when I talk with clients he can only hear my side. It’s more comfortable too, if you can find a good fit. So that might help if you’re trying to get more privacy in your office.

    7. IrishEm*

      This is not helpful in the least but that description just screams: “Hey Joey! It’s Estelle!”

  5. Sunflower*

    Sunday night routines to get you in a good mindset for the work week and beat the scaries?

    I recently started a new job and despite liking the work/my team so far and having a very low workload (for now), I’m still getting a mild version of the Sunday scaries every week. I’m hoping if I can get myself into some sort of routine for Sunday nights that will help combat them. I prefer to do meal prep and grocery shop throughout the week so those are out but looking for a mix of mix of chill and productive activities.

    1. Tired Social Worker*

      Counteract the “what if’s” with statements about what has been going right (evidence that it will be okay).

    2. Dino*

      My profession involves people looking at my hands all day, so I make sure to give myself a basic manicure (clipping, filing, cuticles and buffing) on Sunday afternoon. It’s relaxing and makes me feel more put-together the rest of the week.

    3. the cat's ass*

      I’ve started doing these things as a distraction on Sunday afternoon/nights to decrease the angst: making sure i have 5 days of clean clothes for the week; setting up/planning my lunches for the week, some of which are frozen; and taking a yoga class on Sunday afternoon, which shuts my brain off a little and gets me relaxed enough to sleep well and face the week prepared. Rewatching something enjoyable (like Ted Lasso) has also been helpful. Good luck!

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Can you choose your outfits for the week on Sunday night? So that’s one less thing to stress about/procrastinate over during the mornings.

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      On Friday afternoons, I map out the next week in terms of priorities and then schedule time In my calendar for them. I also go over my schedule for the next week, noting any early or late meetings and anything I have to prepare for (and scheduling prep time if necessary). I also update my to-do list. I find it really helps me to know in advance what is going on and what I need to focus on, so I’m prepared for Monday morning. Jotting down all the random things on a to-do list also makes me less worried that I’m forgetting something.

    6. Hotdog not dog*

      I pick out my outfit, including accessories and shoes, and pack my work bag (laptop, chargers, planner, etc). I’m hybrid, so my Sunday Scaries actually happen on Tuesday, but having a feeling of being prepared helps mitigate the anxiety for me.

    7. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I try to do all of my prepping for the next week on either Friday night or Saturday morning so that by Sunday night, I’m NOT prepping and stressing about Monday…sounds like you are already doing that part…but Sunday I focus on my plants/garden. I’m not a big social media user by any means, but I have an IG for my plants because there is a huge plant community on IG, so weekends I take photos of my plants (photography is rapidly becoming another hobby) and post them, and go through posts from the people I follow etc. from the last few days; the rest of the week I just don’t have time. I listen to new podcasts that I missed during the week too.

    8. SansaStark*

      I feel you with the new job and how it comes with a whole new set of Scaries. I’ve just recently started doing a “Sunday Reset” which means doing some light cleaning/straightening up of areas that will help me throughout the coming week. I WFH so that means making sure my desk area, the kitchen (which I can see from my desk), kitchen table, and bedroom are all free from extraneous clutter. I put on a podcast or YouTube video while I clean. But I **only** do cleaning and activities like jotting down a few meal ideas that I feel like will help me next week; I’m not scrubbing the floors and stuff like that. This has really helped me feel “ready” for Monday morning and since I’m watching YouTube while doing it, it doesn’t feel like a big chore.

    9. Twisted Lion*

      I do self care Sunday nights! I break out my foot spa and give myself a pedicure and sometimes paint my nails. Then I will do a face mask and usually watch some show. Othertimes I play games to keep my mind distracted.

    10. Melanie Cavill*

      I make sure all my weekend chores etc. are done reasonably early on Saturday, so that by the time Sunday evening comes, I’m not doubling up, “ugh work,” with, “oh shiz I DIDN’T DO LAUNDRY!” Then I can have a guilt free Sunday evening watching a new movie or documentary, or playing video games while giving myself a facial.

    11. EMP*

      I actually like to check slack Sunday night. I don’t do anything about it, just check. It reduces the anxiety because now I know if anything came up over the weekend/what to expect on Monday morning. But I realize this is not a solution for everyone! I think part of why it works for me is because I very rarely see anything I actually need to work on/fix/think about.

    12. Mimmy*

      The only truly productive thing I do is that I try to plan out my outfits for the week on Saturday or Sunday. I also make sure I have everything I need ready to go so that I’m not scrambling Monday morning.

      You may find this silly, but watching America’s Funniest Videos on Sunday night helps. I find that laughter eases some of my anxiety of the impending week.

    13. Lizzie*

      What’s helped me, and may not apply for you, is i can choose which days I go into the office, and I choose NOT to go in Mondays. Of course if that changes, I will do it, but right now we’re pretty flexible.
      So what I do now, is try and have everything ready, so I just have to get up, make some coffee, and I’m good to go.
      When i was going in 5 days a week, the same thing. I also tried to have everything done, house wise, etc. by a certain time on Sunday nights, so i could just shower and relax. that also included having all my stuff ready to go the next morning.

    14. Anonymous Koala*

      I like planning out my calendar for the week and putting all my work stuff as blocks on my personal calendar so I don’t accidentally double schedule (I’m on a flex schedule). I also meal plan on Sundays – not prepping, but choosing meals and writing a grocery list. My husband irons all his shirts for the week on Sunday as a kind of ‘work prep’ activity.

    15. Gracely*

      I take a long bubble bath (2-3 hours), light some scented candles, and read something fun most Sunday nights. Gives me something to look forward to instead of dreading that the weekend is over.

    16. mreasy*

      I always try to plan something to look forward to on Sunday afternoon/evening, whether it’s a nice dinner, a tv show/movie I’m excited to watch or bedroom activity w my husband. It sounds too simple but really helps.

    17. Heffalump*

      I find keeping myself busy helps with the Sunday scaries (great phrase btw!). Not doing anything too difficult but definitely trying to distract myself from the impending doom. Cooking a nice evening meal, gardening or crafting – something where I can see a tangible thing as a result. Watching TV doesn’t cut it as its too easy to start thinking about Monday. I also like to make sure the kitchen is clean so I don’t feel like I’m behind before I’ve even logged on.

    18. Quinalla*

      What helps me the most is doing a check of my calendar for Monday/the week, jotting a few notes down in my phone and then I feel like I know what’s coming for the week and can go to bed on Sunday. I don’t really get that anxiousness until I’m about to go to bed.

      Things I do to combat anxiousness otherwise: pick something to purge/reorganize. There is enough brain engagement, but not too much. I also like to do fairly mindless chore while listening to books/podcasts, so dishes, laundry, general cleaning, etc. A walk with a podcast or exercising on my recumbent bike while watching TV is good for me too. I don’t always make time to exercise during the week, so try to make sure to do it on the weekends at least :)

    19. M&M Mom*

      I do my work prep Saturdays- grocery shopping. Cook some chicken breasts and vegetables for lunch. Prep 5 outfits. Light house cleaning. Give myself a manicure. Then on Sunday I feel like I can really relax, take a long walk or read a book. And I’m ready for Monday.

  6. President Porpoise*

    Good morning!

    I’m part of my organization’s high potential talent program, and I’m working on my personal development plan. The very first step of this is to self-assess my professional skills. The issue is I’m finding myself with an enormous list of professional skills that I’ve identified and I feel like I need to pare it down a bit. In your opinion, what are the top three most important professional skills a person can have?

    1. Lemon*

      I’d say this is role and field dependent, here’s what I feel is important for me:
      1. Technical expertise
      2. Presentation and communication skills – specifically, an ability to communicate complex information to laypeople
      3. Relationship building

      1. Well...*

        I’d prioritize 2 over 1, because there’s no point doing something if nobody notices (an academic perspective though, without citations my work escapes into the void)

    2. a tester, not a developer*

      I agree with Lemon – I’d describe it as:
      * Can you do the work
      * Can you explain the work to others
      * If you can’t do the work by yourself, do you know who to ask/how to get help

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      If you are in a STEM field, people skills are critical for advancement. Even such small things as saying hello or recognizing a co-worker/subordinate can make things so much better.

    4. Doctors Whom*

      If I may – I’d recommend taking your big list and instead of cutting it down, collect the skills into affinity groups, that you then describe/name at a higher level of abstraction.

      That way you don’t have to leave out any of the awesome stuff about you!

    5. Ness*

      Ignoring technical skills, since those will vary a lot based on your field:

      1. Effective communication
      2. Effective leadership
      3. Strategic thinking

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      Collaboration and communication (to work with others and to explain things to, and learn things from, others)
      Organization/prioritization (to be able to handle a workload that consists of more than a single task at a time)
      Analytical skills (to look at information/situations critically and use what you see to inform strategy or suggest improvements)

    7. Unaccountably*

      Like others have said, this is completely role-dependent. The professional skills my CEO needs are not even on the same plane as the professional skills I need, or our software developers need, or our admins need.

      What do you do for a living? Identify your usual job tasks and delete anything that doesn’t directly relate to them. See if you can group the others into overarching categories.

  7. Not my real name*

    I’m not quite sure how to handle this situation. A couple of months ago, leadership started doing a short interactive quiz during our all hands meetings, with a couple of small prizes. At last month’s all hands, I was announced as one of the winners – for a $25 gift card with a comment that the other winner and I would receive information about the cards ‘soon’. I don’t remember who won the other card, other than vaguely remembering that I thought it was nice that someone new had won. I am in a senior role, although not leadership, and I think the other person would be entry level. I just received the invitation for this month’s all hands, and realized I never did see anything about the card. I really don’t care if I get a card or not and wouldn’t bother to bring it up for me, but I hate that someone new would have this experience where they won something, but never got it.

    The person running these is new, in a newly created position that has a lot of catching up to do. On one hand, I’m sure he’s absolutely swamped busy. On the other hand, in my interactions with him so far, there is a lot of promising to get me information ‘tomorrow’ that never materializes. In fact, now that I think about it, every single time I’ve had to find what I needed elsewhere or in one case, follow up multiple times for something only he could do.

    So, what do I do? Leave it alone? Follow up, and if so how? I did check in with one person that I thought might have been the winner who was not, and that was awkward enough that I don’t want to run through the other 50 newish people to see if they may be the ones who won. I don’t want to start a war with the person running these by getting them in trouble, and I don’t want to seem like this is thinly veiled attempt to get my card because I’m greedy. I could take it to my boss, but she is newly my boss and we haven’t really hit it off yet. I’m not sure that this is the first thing I want to take to her.

    1. merope*

      I think you can follow up here, in a light way, with a focus on the possibility that the gift card was sent but didn’t get delivered. So, the tone to strike is not accusatory, but rather curious. After all, this is a company expense which may have gone missing, and if there have been 2 winners at the past three meetings, let’s say, the company is now out $150 if none of the cards were delivered (not that I would include that in the conversation, but if it helps you see this as a corporate rather than personal issue, go for it!).

    2. ferrina*

      Reach out to check in with the organizer. Just a simple “Hey, I realized that I never followed up about the $25 gift card that I won at last month’s meeting. Is there anything I need to do to claim that?”
      Don’t worry about the other person- usually having one person reach out is enough to remind the person responsible “right, I need to do that” and reach out to both of you (I’ve been that person who was supposed to send something and it dropped off my plate).

      1. anonymous73*

        This is a good script. I would add that if after asking about it, you still don’t get anything, I would bring it to someone else’s attention. And frame it that you don’t want others to have the same issue, and them maybe being afraid to bring it up, because if the person in charge of this is dropping the ball, that needs to be addressed (had you not mentioned that their follow through has been lacking in the past, I would let it go after 1 conversation, but this seems to be a pattern).

  8. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

    I get almost NO feedback from my boss three months into my six month probationary period unless it’s to fix something in a document (I’m an Editor). She’s not easily reachable (we’re all remote), and while I don’t need positive feedback necessarily, I would kind of like to know if she’s overall pleased with my performance thus far. Alison has addressed this previously, but I can’t find the scripts? I’ve got no way to gauge my performance against my peers either.
    Thanks for any advice!

    1. Tired Social Worker*

      I would ask for a meeting to touch base and see how you are doing. You can actively seek feedback. A good boss will take this opportunity to tell you where your strengths as well as areas of improvement are.

    2. Seeking second childhood*

      One of the podcasts addressed this topic, which might make it easier to find in the archive. Also Alison added transcripts.

    3. anonymous73*

      Do you have regular meetings with them? Do you ask for feedback? If the answers are yes and yes, maybe schedule another meeting with them and let them know that you need more feedback especially if you’re in a probationary period. Calling out mistakes is not feedback.

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Nope, only one twenty minute group meeting each Monday as boss is so busy and that’s just where we report our ongoing projects.. hmm.. you’re making me realize I definitely need to at least get face time once!

    4. Quinalla*

      I get very irritated when people aren’t easily reachable when remote, you have to work to be even more reachable since people can’t see if you are at your desk. I would definitely reach out however you can or just invite your boss to a meeting to check-in and see if you can set something up regularly to check-in. Even if it is once a month, it would be better than nothing that you have now, but more frequent when new is not a bad thing.

      And is there a peer or anyone else you can ask for feedback? Not sure of your work set up, but that can be helpful!

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        This is a great point and I think i will ask some peers who have been around longer. They’re really friendly and will definitely be objective. I never considered it because I thought boss’s opinion mattered most but it doesn’t mean someone who has been doing the job four years won’t be really helpful! Thanks!

  9. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    Two thoughts today. First my therapist insisted many people are not good at their jobs and feel fine. What are you worst at in your job? For me, if it requires me to fill in steps that I don’t know, I have a lot of difficulty. My mind doesn’t naturally fill in the steps.

    Also on your resume, if you do informal training, like people shadow you or you give a lot of advice or you often do the ” so this is what we do here” spiel, what would you write? I’m sure that’s a skill?

    1. EMP*

      I’d call that training or on boarding new team members. Possibly mentorship depending on what the informal training consists of.

    2. Dirty Twirls*

      I personally hate having to jump in on tasks that blow apart my day (I posted on this below) or where I don’t actually have the authority to make decisions but people are asking me to follow through on their work, with things that have financial implications. A miscarriage of those finances is serious (gov’t), so the stakes are very high and problems with this that feel like my problem have left me crying at my desk a handful of times since 2020, in instances where I wasn’t sure things would work out (they have, and within policy, though it sounded scary and I was a contractor at the time).

      I do informal training often! I usually phrase that in some kind of “mentoring of new staff in the following capacities: …” I’m weirdly good at corporate/gov’t resume lingo now, so if you have any other ones, ask away!

    3. Bernice Clifton*

      1. When I pass something off for approval or review, I’m not great at remembering to follow up if the person doesn’t complete it and send it back to me in a day or two. So I set reminders (typically making a note on a post-it) to follow up.

      2. “I was the point-person for new employees to answer questions and explain processes and best practices.”

    4. Lizzie*

      I’m pretty sure I have ADHD, so for me, its staying focused on the mundane tasks, the ones that don’t have a hard and fast deadline, but are ongoing, like updating our webpages, and other things that get done weekly, monthly, etc.

      I also struggle with starting a project or task when I have no clue, as I easily get overwhelmed. ONce i figure it out, or get some guidance, I’m good to go.

      so i guess generally, procrastination is my worst enemy.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Nod. I have ADHD too and people will be like ” I told you to play phone tag two weeks ago” and I forgot I was supposed to be playing phone tag every day

      2. Dierdre X.*

        Same-same. Super ADHD and trying to figure out the right meds. Wishing you and all my other ADHD siblings the best.

      3. Fabulous*

        Reason #4,682,865,442,156 that I reeeaaaalllllyyyy need to get screened for ADHD. This is me 100%.

      4. Quoi*

        Also ADHD, and alongside the boring-but-necessary-with-no-fixed-deadline tasks, I suck balls at minding the fine details. I just cannot get myself to do it. People have talked about getting the adhd brain to do that kind of thing is like making yourself touch a hot stove, and that’s not a bad analogy for the No fixed deadline stuff, but for fine details – checking whether a report has the right date formatting in sharepoint vs excel desktop edition, that kind of thing – it’s the way it’d never even cross your mind to lick the underside of your fridge. It just does not enter my mind to consider it as a potential option.

        And since my boss is a) hyper detail focus perfection woman b) we lost our team analyst and now it falls to me to handle the reports they used to handle, I am now dealing with an uncomfortable volume of rejection-sensitive dysphoria when they come to me for the nth time today and note that “yet again the underside of the fridge remains unlicked and honestly I know you can do better than this why is this happening it is very concerning”. And she isn’t wrong! I have not licked the underside of the fridge! The TPS report does have the wrong font and it doesn’t look good to our external partners that I keep making these small but apparently very obvious to everyone other than me errors. But it still never crosses my mind to lick the underside of the fridge.
        (I may have rather more emotions about this than I initially thought)

        1. Momma Bear*

          Feeling bad about things can also be part of Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, which likes to hang out with ADHD (as does Anxiety, and other things with acronyms). If you know you have a blind spot, sit down and try to figure out how to mitigate it. I currently have a doc printed with all comments because I was not tracking in the electronic version. Sometimes going between two screens is enough to get sidetracked with attention/focus issues, so maybe print one out.

      1. Cj*

        It is absolutely a skill. I was just job today, and I listed mentoring on my resume. I also discussed it in quite a bit of detail in my interview because I know they hire a lot of new grads that needs someone to guide them.

        1. Cj*

          *offered a job today. Hopefully I proofread my cover letters and resumes better than I do these comments.

    6. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I’m not good at on-the-spot decisions. 99% of the time, my first reaction is not the best option, and when I’m pushed to share it and act on it, I invariably end up wishing I’d said and done something completely different within just a matter of hours. I need data, I need to hear from people with different points of view and expertise, and I need time to reflect. I’ve worked with plenty of people (especially men in more senior positions) that valued quick speaking over considered approaches, and those have been some of my most stressful experiences.

      Also related: at all my jobs, I’ve quickly established myself as someone self-sufficient enough that people assume I can figure out most things on my own. The reality is I, too, need guidance. Especially at the start of a new project, or I’ll get overwhelmed fast. Usually, it’s enough to talk through what I’m doing with another person (preferably my manager or a peer with a different skill set), and as long as I can hear from someone with a different approach or see how they work in practice, I get enough ideas to start working out my own. I’m not shy about asking for help, but I’ve seen many people act surprised or put off, in a “you’ve doing this long enough, you’re on your own” kind of way. In my role, no two projects are ever the same and there’s a lot of uncertainty to wrangle every day, so the implication that I should be the one person to always know it all tends to make me nervous and defensive.

    7. Gracely*

      I hate putting things on public calendars. I don’t know why, it just always feels so…off-putting. I never want to do it. I have no problem accepting invites, etc., though.

      I also am not great at ending conversations with coworkers when I need to get back to work.

    8. quill*

      Worst: remembering non-word sequences of letters and numbers, which is surprisingly common when I have to do document control.

      I’m very good at the written word, so I assumed I’d be pretty good at document control – but actually so much of it in practice is acronyms and my brain just doesn’t hold onto the idea that TPT-HDL22-0003 is the third teapot handle report of 2022, which needs to be routed to department xyz with protocol qrs, but HDL_RPT22-0003 is a completely different document that goes to a different department

    9. Mouse*

      My worst skill is doing things that I’ve already let slip a bit. Once something falls a bit behind, I get a paralyzing anxiety about the fact that it’s behind, which makes it harder and harder to return to it. I haven’t figured out a good workaround for myself yet.

      For your resume: what about something like “often a go-to colleague for my high degree of institutional knowledge”? Someone can probably wordsmith that better into achievement language but I like the “institutional knowledge” phrase.

      1. Dirty Twirls*

        known as a subject matter expert, particularly for institutional knowledge relevant to mentoring of new colleagues and decision-making

    10. Former Gremlin Herder*

      I think it is very normal to be bad at asepcts of your job, or even to not be great the job as a whole. Personally, I struggle with extended projects that have lots of fiddly details and with dealing with conflict, even when its low level. But I’m very good at creating certaing types of multi-media content, training people, and public speaking.

      You didn’t ask this, but some ways to deal with the parts of your job that aren’t your strengths are to put supports for yourself in place (for me, it’s carefully chunking my work, creating external deadlines, and asking specifically for other eyes on things with fiddly details) and actively seeking to improve (for me, this meant pursing an ADHD diagnosis) or even choosing to work towards jobs that have more of what you’re good at/enjoy doing-though this is definetely a long term solution.

    11. Unaccountably*

      Just about everyone is not as good at certain *aspects* of their jobs as they are at others. It’s true that many people are not good at their jobs in toto and feel fine about it, but… do you really want to be one of them? Is your therapist one of them and that’s why she insists on it? Because that’s a very, very low bar to clear.

      Work is a big part of your life. Is there a way you can start figuring out what jobs suit you better than the one you discussed with your therapist?

      For the second, it depends on whether it’s something that was part of your actual job description or just something you would up doing. If training and mentoring were on your job description, put training and mentoring on your resume. If they weren’t and you just wound up doing them, I’d save it for the interview and bring it up then.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Eh I think that was actually a good technique. I’m always worried about being bad at my job so pointing out that perhaps it is fine to not do a great job every day. He also knows that I have job search trauma and probably am not in the right headspace for something that tanks your self confidence. The job system is broken but I blame myself.

    12. IrishEm*

      I hate talking to people on the phone. I work in a call centre. Those two things feed the Imposter Syndrome really well.

      I know there’s a lot of stuff I’m really fricking good at but I always assume I’m only mediocre at best, I am my own worst critic. I am the person your therapist was talking about lol

    13. Disco Janet*

      I’m terrible at responding to emails in a timely manner. Hard to fit it in when I’m spending my entire day at work (and then some more time at home) teaching, lesson planning, grading, prepping materials, etc. But I have to be careful to not take too long to respond since obviously parents and admin don’t appreciate it! (Neither do my students, but hey, they see me five days a week. They can ask me in person.)

    14. allathian*

      I’m a translator, and the texts I’m expected to translate can be anything from a single word or phrase (such as a job title) to a 100-page report. My ideal is work that’s between one and twenty pages. Longer than that, and I get bored, and while I can set intermediary goals for other things, somehow I’ve never been able to do that for my core task. Extremely short assignments are annoying, because the admin (communicating with the client, tracking, documenting, etc.) related to the task takes up a relatively long time compared to the task itself.

      Mentoring is a skill.

  10. Remote meeting snafus*

    Recent giggle during a remote department town hall: I had to apologize and ask people to ignore the gunshot sounds in the background while I was presenting. I live near a quarry, and they were doing blasting that day.

    Anyone else have good virtual meeting stories?

    1. hamsterpants*

      At Former Job, I had a daily virtual meeting with the same people at 4 pm. We knew it was time to wrap up when we could hear one of the attendee’s cats meowing for dinner.

        1. InsufficientlySubordinate*

          I’m pretty sure I could be that coworker and unmuted on purpose.

    2. LadyB*

      I also had to apologise for machine gun fire (staged fortunately).
      They were filming a car chase for Batman that ended with the Batmobile screeching to a halt under my office window.

      2. Alice Ulf*

        I’ve got to admire your dedication, since I’m pretty sure I would have been too distracted by BATMAN(!!!!) to do anything related to work. :D

    3. Murphy*

      My desk is right by a window and is very close to trees. Last spring there were multiple comments on the bird background noise (all positive, but still!)

      Otherwise, my dog has tried to protect me from dangerous package deliveries.

      One time I was muted for most of a meeting, but as soon as I unmuted to talk my husband and daughter (who had already told me they were heading out) both started yelling “BYE MOMMY WE LOVE YOU MOMMY” etc. Thankfully it was fine.

      1. The OG Sleepless*

        I do occasional phone meetings with someone who always has birds singing in the background. I assumed she had pet birds, but it turned out she lives in a coastal city and works outside a lot. So now I always picture lots of trees and birds in her yard.

    4. AdequateArchaeologist*

      During a business call my husband’s cat was being very chatty. Unfortunately the pitch of his voice and his preferred noises to make sound like a toddler babbling. He was really ramping it up and I was trying to shush him in what I thought was a discreet manner. Our sales guy paused and asked “oh, is that your baby?”. Had to explain that nope, just my cat.

    5. OyHiOh*

      A few weeks ago, we had a virtual site visit with all staff and like 20 external stakeholders. In the middle of it all, a hail storm hit downtown City. About a dozen of us had to suddenly adjust volume controls to account for three inches worth of pea size hail piling up on the windows.

    6. Let me be dark and twisty*

      My house was three-quarters of a mile away from a river with a dam. The dam has a warning siren for when/if the dam fails that the county tests twice a year. It’s a very loud siren. (Also a little creepy, not gonna lie. I always feel like I need to prepare for some kind of invasion when they do the tests.)

      When I’m in virtual meetings on those siren-test days, the people in my meetings can hear the dam sirens going off too. And I have all windows and doors closed to my house. It made for some fun conversation.

    7. Everything Bagel*

      Had a call today with a local government official. At a crucial point in the call, a group of ducks gathered outside my home office window and apparently were having quite a disagreement. Robust quacking ensued. I don’t know if the guy on the phone could hear what was going on in the background. I was trying to talk loudly over the ducks. I did have a laugh once I got off the phone though.

    8. mreasy*

      I was giving a virtual presentation to a few hundred folks in my industry and my cat decided to jump up in front of my screen and LICK MY MOUTH on camera. She never does that any other time so I guess she was just showing off?

    9. Chaordic One*

      I live near an air force base and fighter planes are frequently flying in and out of the area and sometimes they even do maneuvers over the area in which I live. It’s funny because during meetings you can hear the planes flying over the area where other people live and then a few minutes later they’ll be flying over my house (and vice-versa). Sometimes we have to pause our meetings for a minute or so to allow a plane to fly over and then pause again when it gets to a different team member’s house. One of my coworkers quipped, “It’s the sound of freedom.”

    10. small towm*

      Dear younger son was practicing his bass clarinet and Best Old Dog started singing along. We had Tchaikovsky plus (loud) accompaniment. Thankfully everyone just started laughing and we moved on.

    11. Moths*

      I live right next door to a cemetery and very frequently have sounds from services that come in (or from heavy equipment as they’re preparing a gravesite). At the start of work-from-home, it was a bit unsettling, just because I realized just how many funerals there were, but I came to get used to it as background noise (if still a little sad every time).

      One day I needed to record a training for work and the recording was being coordinated virtually by our production team. Of course, that was the exact time that a service had been scheduled for. With no where in the house to go where you couldn’t hear it, I just had to apologize for the constant bagpipes in the background! Luckily, they were able to cut them out post-production!

    12. The OG Sleepless*

      I’m a veterinarian, and I was on the phone with a toxicologist from Poison Control when I heard a distressed screech in the background. It was his cat vomiting. Poor kitty.

    13. CatPerson*

      In the early days of the pandemic I chaired a meeting that started at the same time that the Air National Guard was doing a flyover to honor health care workers. :-)

    14. tamarak & fireweed*

      Ours can be very laid back. The most giggle-inducing event was when we gave a complicated tag-team presentation to a panel of evaluators from one of our funders. One evaluator (who asked me a bunch of incisive questions) had their cat on the desk, and the cat pointed her butthole at the camera for long stretches of time while I was trying to give coherent answers…

      Today we had our unit’s (~100 people altogether) all-hands on Zoom. Two visiting scientists from an Asian country were mentioned, but they weren’t on the call. Our director noted that they may have left for field work and indicated the site – an instrumentation site in the middle of a forest about 40 miles away. A little later one of them popped up, and it turned out that they were connecting via cell phone from their pretty remote forest site, which was very picturesque.

  11. AnotherSarah*

    Sartorial question: I’m traveling business class for a red-eye to Europe soon. I’ve never flown business overnight! Is it okay to wear yoga pants and sneakers? Or will people dress up?

    1. The Prettiest Curse*

      I have taken many overnight flights to Europe (in coach) and pretty much anything goes, as people know they will be sleeping. Just wear something comfortable and bring extra layers for warmth.
      I think some airlines even give out free pyjamas in first or business class, but at the least you’ll get a nice cozy blanket for free.

    2. Raboot*

      People in business class look pretty much the same as coach on any plane I’ve been on.

    3. A Poster Has No Name*

      Are you checking luggage? My only thing would be to make sure you are either wearing somewhat business-appropriate attire or have some in a carry on, just in case your luggage gets lost.

      In business school I had a class that spent a week in Brussels & London and business dress was expected. One of the attendees wore a t-shirt and shorts on the plane and checked the rest of his luggage, which they lost for several days so he had to scramble to buy something appropriate before our first site visit so he wasn’t the ugly American in shorts.

    4. Well...*

      Sometimes in Europe, people class it up on planes but my ex-pat American self does. Not. Care. I’m wearing yoga pants on planes (even short flights) until I’m in violation of the law and get arrested.

      On long international flights, there’s enough of a mix that you won’t stand out. Also if you transfer in CDG make sure you have carry-on clothes to get you through a few days of work. They aren’t very efficient at getting bags transferred for tight connections. Good advice in general but some airports are less reliable than others.

    5. Well...*

      Also you may want to ditch sneakers for comfortable flats (big enough to wear with socks for warmth). The sneakers take up a lot of space under the seat in front of you. I change into flats right before boarding, then put all my stuff overhead except what can fit in the seat pocket. It gives you more space to stretch out and move positions while you sleep.

    6. Hillary*

      For work or pleasure? I’ve stopped even bringing sneakers when I’m going to Europe for work – I never have time to exercise anyway. I have a couple dressy boot options that are comfortable for walking and professional enough. My European colleagues may wear dress sneakers to work, but never the bright colors or sport styles that we see in the US.

      If you don’t have status, dressing up a notch may get you better treatment. It’s not an issue when things go right, but when things go wrong unfortunately those little indicators change things. For me that’s usually good shoes (not necessarily designer, just a polished look) and a recognizable purse/tote. One of my male colleagues always wears a blazer for the same reason.

      1. the cat's ass*

        Came here to say this! Neat jersey separates, flats or danskos and a cashmere wrap are my travel-to Europe/Japan uniform. I add lipstick and a nice scarf before disembarking. Not that Ive actually gone anyplace recently!

    7. Diluted Tortoishell*

      You should ask your coworkers. Every place is different and no one here can answer this for you.

      1. AnotherSarah*

        No coworkers! I know the dress code on arrival, just nothing about business class.

      2. Disco Janet*

        People from other places can’t possibly have flown business class overnight to Europe?

    8. Dr. Prepper*

      As a million miler myself, for overseas trips you can literally wear anything and no one cares. Some show up in business clothes, change into PJ’s and then 45 minutes before landing change back. Others show up in PJ’s with their own pillow under their arm. The advice to have business clothes in your carryon is very smart, also emergency toiletries.
      In business you usually get a goodie bag usually with some oversocks – I put my shoes overhead, put on the socks for on the plane and bathroom, then ditch the socks in the trash before landing.
      The biggest issue will be how you sleep on planes, especially if you have business meetings the day you arrive. Your body will think it’s 2:00 AM if you have a 8:00 AM business meeting. In business you generally get a full recline, sometimes even a lay flat which is great. Bring ear plugs, headphones or whatever works (I have noise cancelling buds and white noise I play from my phone.) Bring a comfortable eyeshade as the cheapies in the goodie bag may not work as well.
      Above all, tell the cabin crew NOT to wake you if you sleep through dinner or whatever, if that’s what you want. Definitely tell them TO wake you for breakfast and coffee.

      Finally, know you will have to crawl over your seat mate if you have the window seat to get to the bathroom while they are sleeping. That’s why I always ask for center aisle seats.

      1. Imtheone*

        Planes to Europe in the summer tend to be very cold, so plan on a few layers, even if it’s 95 degrees when you leave!

        1. Chaordic One*

          So very true. You probably don’t want to use an airline-supplied blanket because the cleanliness is kind of questionable.

  12. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

    Hi! Can I get some good job-hunting vibes? And some advice….

    I’ve been applying for jobs outside the library field since January and it has not been going well. I know 5 months really isn’t that long, but without even getting interviews, moving from libraries is starting to feel like a lost cause.

    I’ve been applying for quality assurance/document control positions in or near Chicago as of late (remote jobs and not), and have also done a few research assistant positions. I have recently bought Alison’s book and have been using this website for advice – particularly with cover letters and resumes! I try to show how I have experience doing when they’re asking for, usually in my professional life, but personal as well (I have a small Google sheets care guide for my plants).

    How transparent should I be about why I want to leave libraries? The burnout is very real, but it’s more than just that. Right now, in my cover letters, I say that the pandemic has made me consider how I can better use the skills gained through libraries, which is true. But I’m also wanting to leave because most of the jobs in public libraries are part-time and I am not comfortable being a safety net for things the government doesn’t want to or can’t help with, I am not a social worker. Plus librarians don’t make a ton, which would be fine, but I don’t want to have to worry about money, or to assume that one day I’ll have a significant other to help. I do have my MLIS and I wonder if people see that and think I’ll eventually go back to libraries? (I am in my 30s and honestly don’t plan on it at this time, but never say never.) Obviously I wouldn’t mention everything in a cover letter or maybe even an interview, but I’m wondering if I should be more transparent.

    Would a recruiter be beneficial to those switching careers? It’s very possible I don’t have a full understanding of what a recruiter does….

    1. ferrina*

      Your cover letter should be less about leaving libraries and more about why you are excited to start in the new field. Focus on how the past has prepared you for the future- “My work in library cataloguing made me realize how much I love data organization. I’m intrigued by New Role’s focus on data entry and organization- this is one of the things that attracted me to this job!”

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        Ooo I like that last sentence! I say part of that in my intro, but I like looping it in to specific things in the job description. Which I try to do, but am probably not doing it the best way. Thanks!

      2. Another hopeful former librarian*

        I agree with this tactic.

        I’m trying to make the shift into copywriting, and most of the jobs I’ve applied for so far are things like writing product descriptions for ecommerce sites. In my cover letters, I’m making the point that being involved in direct customer service for so many years has helped me understand how customers search for things and what kind of information they want to have included when they’re searching. No interviews yet, but I’m still refining my writing samples and I’ve only been searching for about a month, so I’m not super worried yet.

        1. Product Person*

          Another helpful former librarian,

          I had to hire people for the job you want, and what you wrote about learning how customers search for things is GOLD!

          I am sure soon you’ll get an interview. Good luck!

      3. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, 100% this. I’ve hired a lot of non-MLIS people for library adjacent jobs (think Museum/Anthro/Linguistics/Comp Sci people) and what I want to see is not “Why I am leaving anthropology” but rather “Here’s what about this job that makes me want to do it and here’s how my anthropology background will make me a better candidate.”

        1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

          Thank you! In making this post, I’ve learned that I’m doing the right things, for the most part, but I need to do better with showing why I want the specific job I am applying to, and what I bring, not just a summary of my experience.

    2. Pop*

      One sentence on why you’re looking to switch is fine, which it sounds like you have. You don’t want or need to focus too much on the negatives. Instead, focus on transferrable skills and why you want to move TO the field you want to move into. You don’t want to start an interview by essentially badmouthing the field or employer you’re trying to leave (even if it’s true)! And DEFINITELY don’t mention what you think the role of government should be, ha. I suspect I agree with you and your thinking but mentioning that in an interview would make me question a candidate’s judgement.

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        Oh god no, I wouldn’t badmouth anything in an interview!! This post is kind of me partially venting, but I do know not to badmouth in an interview. :)

    3. Bonne chance*

      Re: transparency, I would frame the shift about what you’re hoping to find (such as opportunities to apply XYZ skills) rather than what you’re hoping to leave, if that makes sense. Can be the other side of the same coin, but will make it more about the job you want.

      I think it’s fine to mention that you’re looking for stability during your search, though I wouldn’t spend time on that in a cover letter. When I was looking to leave a similarly precarious industry and interviewers asked what I hoped to find in my next role, I was honest about wanting a job that fostered stability/would provide better work-life balance (in addition to mentioning why the role in particular suited my professional goals).

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        Thank you!!! If I make it to the interview stage at some point, I’ll be sure to handle it like you did.

    4. irene adler*

      Recruiters don’t really specialize in candidates. They are hired/used by companies to fill positions.

      That said, there is value to getting your resume into their resume system for subsequent searches as they work to fill positions.

      You can indicate that you are leaving the old career because you find the new career/position attractive. Don’t bring up negative reasons (” I’m burning out!”, “no full-time work!”) for the career change. This statement: “the pandemic has made me consider how I can better use the skills gained through libraries” is good if you can flesh it out to explain how your skills can be utilized in the new career/position. Frame things in terms of “moving towards” a new career or position and not “running away” from a bad situation. Tell ’em what attracts you to the position you’ve applied for and how you meet the job description requirements.

      RE: QA / Doc control positions
      Have you connected with your local ASQ section? That can be a source for networking.

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        Your comment on my very first post about job searching and roles I could apply to was so helpful!!! :) it gave me a lot of hope, which I really needed at the time.

        Anyway, thank you for your response! I’ll keep ASQ in mind, I haven’t looked at that a ton (because I didn’t remember it was a resource).

        But thank you for this, I’ll def frame things as why I’m interested in the current role, but why I’m leaving libraries.

    5. NeedRain47*

      IMO (I am also a librarian) you should be *less* transparent, if anything. Like pretty opaque. Basically I wouldn’t mention anything you don’t like about libraries, at all. Employers want to know what you can do for them and why you belong in their field. They don’t care about your (very reasonable) life concerns. And I’d be afraid that it could be seen as negative which you don’t want in your application materials.

      You can just say something in your cover letter about being excited to use your skills in a new field, you don’t need to explain why you’re applying out of libraries. (although, if you get interviews, be prepared to say a few words about it). It sounds like you are already highlighting how the skills you have are the same as the skills they’re looking for, so keep doing that! I wish you luck.

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        I’ll remember my post for if I make it to interviews! I’ve gotten a lot of solid advice. In hindsight, I think I was asking more for how to handle it in interviews, but the advice here still applies regardless: focus on what I can bring to the role, not why I’m leaving.

    6. Just a Manager*

      I’d say it’s common knowledge that library work is hard with low pay. As a hiring manager, I would be interested in what you could bring to our organization.

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        Yeah I’m not trying to bash my field or employers, but it’s really hard. A lot harder than people think.

    7. Dragonfly7*

      Support staff person here commiserating with you. I’m focusing on the skill(s) I want to take from the library into my new work because it is my favorite part of what I do, so I share that in one sentence of my cover letters. I am hoping for an entry-level help desk/technical support type of role.

  13. Lilith*

    There’s a discussion point that’s come up at work recently about our notice periods and the possibility of changing them, and I am interested in knowing what others think! This is a UK company and we’re talking about UK norms for notice periods, I understand (from reading AAM) that the US especially has very different expectations.

    In my experience, the standard notice period I would expect a permanently-employed office worker to give if they are moving on would be 1 month. Higher-up managers might have to give 3 months, directors and CEOs give 6 months. I have mostly worked for non-profits and local councils, in case the private sector is different!

    I am not a manager, but my contract says I need to give 3 months notice. My viewpoint is that this is unusual and might be difficult – when I interview for my next job (when the time comes, I am currently happy where I am) having a 3-month delay before I can start would knock me out of the running for most posts. HR’s viewpoint is that having a longer notice period is a benefit as it means the company will need to give that much notice before sacking me or making me redundant (also hypothetical, they have no plans to do this!). My rebuttal is that I’ve chosen to leave way more jobs than I’ve been made redundant/sacked from, so I should have the notice period that’s most likely to be beneficial to me.

    Has anyone else had to balance this? It is just a matter of choosing which risk I prefer?

    1. londonedit*

      Will you be able to negotiate a different notice period just for yourself, or is it a company-wide policy change that they’re talking about? In my experience this sort of thing is usually a company decision and there isn’t much leeway for individuals to negotiate (unless you’re very senior).

      The company I work for did a review of notice periods a couple of years ago – previously, everyone was on 3 months apart from the very senior people who were on 6 months. They’d been getting a lot of feedback from junior staff that this was hindering their careers, as a standard notice period elsewhere in the industry is 1 month, and potential employers were being put off by a notice period that was outside the norm. So they reduced the notice period for everyone below a certain level of seniority. Everyone was happy with the change – as you say, it’s going to be vastly more likely to affect your ability to get a new job rather than your notice period if they decide to get rid of you!

      1. Lilith*

        Unusually, I’m only looking to (potentially) change my own terms – the company is looking at everyone’s contracts because of Reasons but it’s being split by team and job title. I am not at all an important person, but it’s worked out that I am a one-person-team now so don’t have any exact peers to compare to.

    2. Lama counter*

      I’m from Belgium where we also have longer notice periods, generally longer if you are with the company for longer and it can be multiple months as well.
      As far as I noticed, this also means that the companies you apply to also expect you to only be able to start after a longer period than the two weeks always mentioned in this blog, so it doesn’t become an issue if you stay within the same country. My company for example expects any new hire to take multiple months to start: the searching process but then also the hire to start time added to it.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        It sounds like the norm in that country for this type of job is one month, whereas current-job wants 3. That’s the problem. NewJobs will expect them to be available in one month but they won’t be available for 3 and the new job won’t necessarily be willing to wait.

      2. Been There*

        From Belgium as well, and I’ve noticed you can negotiate your notice period down to 2-4 weeks depending on your job.

    3. LDN Layabout*

      1 month is for entry level and first career professional jobs, 2-3 months is mid-range, 3-6 months is management, upper management and senior leadership 6-12 months, possibly involving gardening leave.

      The notice period you’re describing here, as long as you’re not entry or low level? Completely normal even if you’re not management.

    4. anonymous73*

      What can they do to you if you leave with less than 3 month’s notice? I’m in the US so I’m not sure of the norms in the UK, but can they punish you in some way – take money from your pay/sue you? If they aren’t able to enforce any consequences for leaving with less notice, I wouldn’t worry about it. In the US most companies say they require a certain amount of leave but they have no way of legally enforcing it as far as I know. It’s more of a courtesy. And here your notice period is meant for you to wrap up and/or transition any projects, and document processes if needed. The point of it is not to allow the company to find your replacement and have you train them (which as we’ve seen here, many managers don’t seem to get).

      1. LDN Layabout*

        Your notice period is outlined in your contract and leaving early would be a breach of contract. A lot of employers can be open to negotiation or wouldn’t take it to court, but it will reflect incredibly badly on you for not working your notice period.

      2. Cj*

        Like LDN Layabout saids, in Europe they have actual contracts, so both the employee and employer are legally bound to the notice period.

        The longer notice period doesn’t allow them to train their replacement either, because the replacement is going to have to give the same months long amount of notice to their employer too.

      3. allathian*

        In Europe, we also have long vacations. The long notice period is partly required so that the old employer doesn’t have to pay out accrued vacation. It’s very common for people to start their new job when the vacation they’re due at their old job starts, or shortly after. So if a notice period is 2 months, and the employee has a month’s vacation accrued, they’re essentially free to start working at the new job a month after giving notice.

    5. Bagpuss*

      UK private sector (law) here.
      3 months is absolutely standard in my field .
      Our norms are:
      1 month for non-legal/support staff (reception, secretarial & admin etc)
      3 months for lawyers at all levels including paralegals, plus senior support staff (Office manager, head cashier)
      6 months for senior people (Heads of Department, Saleraied Partners

      We sometimes come across people with shorter notice periods – one of the lawyers we recently employed was on 2 months notice (we do have one who had a much shorter period, but that was becasue they were escaping from a towering infernoof red flags and their previous employer had never manageed to issue them with a contract in the firtst place, so not normal, and meant they were just giving their statutory minimum)

      Based on friends in other types of job it varies a bit but 3 months is not unsual for professional jobs, in my experience. Did you sapply through an agency? If so you could try asking them about industry norms for the private sector in your field, as I think it does vary

    6. Quoi*

      I’m in the UK in a mid-seniority role, and I’ve had a 3 month notice period for my last few roles – public and private sector. It’s fairly common once you’re a way past entry level and would be unlikely to put you out of the running, except possibly for time-limited roles like maternity covers or some fixed term contracts.

    7. Yay, I’m a Llama again!*

      I worried about this when I was at risk of redundancy- couldn’t understand how a new company would happily wait three months for me. But it seems to be very, very typical in the UK.

  14. Stressed*

    I learned a bit more context today re: my problem employee.

    Short recap: her writing is borderline incomprehensible:

    ““As I thought it was send at 9:10,when I send you the response that it was updated in the FI calendar. Going forward I will double check to make sure it is always sent. To be honor felt your tone was harsh. As you said it was a honest mistake. I am glad we cleared the air communication is very important. ☺️”
    (In response to her manager saying he was frustrated that an internal 1:1 wasn’t rescheduled despite him asking 3x)

    “(Colleague) is out on vacation until Tuesday April 26th . I would happy to help what kind of lunch would like me to ordered?”
    (To an external client)

    “I am new to Company Team, I would like to thank you’ll for the lovely flowers.”
    (To our entire team)”

    ….and 7 months into her employment she still needs training on basic outlook functions despite claiming 20 yrs of admin experience at a bank.

    Here’s the rub: She is one of three black employees on our NAMER team who are performing below expectations. 1, my employee, is incompetent. 2 is screwing up on really simple things and is so slow to complete his work that his other, already overworked team members are having to take it on (and are getting resentful about it, and making the manager aware). I haven’t really seen any of 3’s work, so I don’t know what’s going on there.

    According to the manager
    1. My company’s HR is very wary of the optics of three black employees on one team being placed on a PIP/getting fired
    2. Apparently 2 is *even more incompetent* than 1, and between the two he’d be let go first.

    1 is going to be sent to intense remedial training, on *everything,* including very basic outlook functions, in addition to intensive writing classes. Remedial to the degree of “make sure you answer every question asked when responding to an email!”

    I completely understand HRs hesitations and concerns. I also feel totally screwed.

    1. Mom of Lucy the Hound*

      I wonder if one would benefit from an evaluation for reading disorders like dyslexia and accommodations such as speech dictation?

      1. Stressed*

        The problem is that this isn’t a job that someone with reading and writing difficulties can do to the degree that we need. I’d liken it to an engineer needing to do remedial math- there’s a fundamental fit issue.

      2. RagingADHD*

        A manager can’t send an employee to get tested for learning disorders, FCOL. Nor should they suggest it. That would be wildly offensive and inappropriate.

      3. fueled by coffee*

        I had the opposite thought — is she *using* speech-to-text software to create these emails? “To be honest” > “To be honor” and “Thank you (y’all?)” > “Thank you’ll” don’t come across as standard autocorrect/typos to me but seem more plausible as errors from a speech recognition system.

          1. Eukomos*

            I could see a sufficiently weird typing of “thank you all” getting turned into “thank you’ll” by autocorrect, might be worth double checking it’s turned off on her computer. Not that this will fix everything, but better than nothing if it does help?

            1. Stressed*

              Ok…but this role needs someone who can immediately see “oh, that’s not correct grammar/spelling.” She isn’t capable of that.

        2. Siege*

          That was my thought, but I see that Stressed has clarified. But that kind of weird error does sound like speech-to-text.

        3. Cj*

          I thought it seemed like speech-to-text too, and am surprised that it’s not. It actually looks like what I’ve ended up with when using speech to text and haven’t gone back to edit properly. Sometimes on this very site.

          ( I used speech to text to do this, and somehow instead of “what” I got “Saltines”).

        4. quill*

          I wondered if she’s relying on some sort of autocorrect / autocomplete that word-salads some sort of problem she has with arranging a sentence coherently? I could see how that would potentially mess up the verb tenses and some of the wrong word problems.

          OP, this may not help, but have you ever seen her compose a sentence on paper? It might give you some information if this is a literacy thing or a typing thing.

          1. Stressed*

            It’s just a regular old laptop, dock, and keyboard setup. It’s not autocorrect, it’s her brain. Trust me. I’ve been with her 7 months at this point.

            1. quill*

              I would be soooo tempted to ask her if she wanted dressing for that word salad.

              I don’t believe she would get the joke, though.

    2. Haven’t picked a user name yet*

      Is this employee from the examples a native English speaker? If not, I would cut some slack for sure and focus on other performance issues.

      But I would also stop grouping these employees together. Focus on giving clear direct feedback on what needs to change and follow up when it happens again with specific examples. “I wanted to raise the issue of the 1:1 not being rescheduled after we spoke about it yesterday. Is there a system issue that is preventing you from getting this done?” If it comes up again “this is an example of the lack of follow up we discussed last week. In order to be successful I need you to complete this task within the next two hours.”

      1. Stressed*

        English is her first and only language.

        1 is the only employee I have any jurisdiction over, so I’m just going to be watertight and honest in my evaluations of her. To be blunt: she’s a kind woman, but she’s not at the level we need for this job. I just need to make the documentation as airtight as possible.

        1. Cj*

          I’m curious to know what her cover letter and resume looked like. Although I supposed to be probably got help with that, at least with proofreading.

          1. Cj*

            Speech-to-text just got me again. That was supposed to be “she probably”, not “too be probably”.

          2. Stressed*

            Coherently written; I am 99.99% certain someone else wrote it for her. The gulf in finesse is HUGE. The skills listed on her resume do not at all line up with the quality of work we have seen in person in the office.

      2. Observer*

        Is this employee from the examples a native English speaker? If not, I would cut some slack for sure and focus on other performance issues.

        I doubt that this is possible. For one thing, she’s sending really problematic emails to *outside people* who are CLIENTS. That’s a significant problem. Even the emails to inside staff are problematic, because they are so hard to understand; it’s not just minor usage / grammar errors.

    3. Cat Lover*

      No advice, just sympathy. I work with a lady (at a chain of doctor’s offices) that types like this, including in emails to patients. English is not her first language and I think it’s just a writing in English thing, because her speaking is fine. It’s frustrating though when I get incomprehensible notes about pts.

    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      If you keep incompetent employee because RACE you’re actually perpetuating some weird assumptions instead of potentially hiring a competent employee of color.

      1. Stressed*

        I’m not her manager, which makes this all a lot tougher. Her actual manager has been complaining about the quality of work but has not done his due diligence with feedback. It’s the problem with having non-administrative people managing administrators.

      2. Well...*

        3 events rules out 0 signal at 3 sigma for a poisson distribution… Meaning something is up here. It’s hard for this to just be an incompetence coincidence that has nothing to do with race.

        Granted, this could be systemic problems beyond OPs control. I’d argue we all have an obligation to put some extra effort in to correct for that as well.

        1. Stressed*

          The only quality of work I can speak to with any knowledge is 1’s work, which is indeed bad. It’s absolutely possible that 2 and 3 are being judged unfairly: I don’t have any way of knowing beyond what I’ve heard, and I can’t bank on the reliability of it. I just don’t know.

          As I wrote below part of the problem is that our company isn’t offering appealing pay or flexibility, so the best candidates are (understandably) going to the companies that are.

          1. Sunflower*

            This sounds like a major organization problem. You said there are more than 3 people on the team having performance problems that warrant being on some sort of official list- That seems extremely high.

            I have to ask- are people actually interviewing for these jobs? It seems like any of this would have been picked up if the applicants were writing cover letters. It kind of sounds like HR is just hiring people without doing their due diligence but also isn’t allowing for quick cuts if it’s not working out.

            It’s pretty common for companies to have 3 month probationary periods where the policy states employees can be let go without need for an improvement plan. If HR refuses to change their hiring practices, perhaps instituting this and having the applicants sign it can help skirt their worries.

            1. Stressed*

              3 people. Not more than 3 (that I’m aware of)

              Yes, she was sent to us by HR. We (stupidly) assumed that she had been vetted, because that’s what HR is supposed to do. At some point during the Panera, HR stopped doing these tests…but didn’t tell anyone. We assumed she had been vetted because she should have been.

              As I wrote elsewhere her manager is content to complain about her but has consistently dropped the ball in doing something about it. My colleague and I both gave him honest, detailed feedback at 90 days highlighting her serious issues. She still made it past 90.

              1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

                See how easy it is to have this happen? “At some point during the Panera, HR stopped doing these tests…”

                1. Stressed*

                  …it’s a meme, people using different words starting with P instead of pandemic.

        2. Observer*

          It’s hard for this to just be an incompetence coincidence that has nothing to do with race.

          “hard” does not mean impossible. We obviously can’t speak to the others, but the examples the OP is providing are definitely examples of unacceptable writing that affect performance. This is not about using non-standard grammar / usage.

          It’s also possible that the people who do hiring are just really bad at the job, and are focusing too much on race when hiring without thinking about what aspects of race they should be thinking about. eg It’s good to think about the possibility that a Black candidate might not have a degree (that is really only marginally relevant anyway) because of lack of access rather than lack of intelligence and discipline, but it’s not OK to figure that you can’t hold out for competence because that’s “the best you can find”. The former is appropriate and recognizes real disparities. The latter is flat out racist, whatever anyone intends.

        3. AcademiaNut*

          If N=3 you can’t apply a Poisson distribution and come to reasonable conclusions! Small number statistics are very difficult to do well.

          If you have a job that isn’t competitive in pay and benefits, *and* where they’re not screening for basic competency in the hiring process, as the OP describes, getting incompetent employees is not that surprising.

          1. Well...*

            Poisson distributions only apply for small numbers, when the numbers get larger they are well approximated by gaussian distributions.

          2. Well...*

            This is why it’s a big deal when experiments observe 3 events in extremely low background regions.

            My assumption of low background is probably the shakier part of the argument here.

        4. linger*

          Statistics points to existence of a systematic problem, but not directly to a cause.
          One likely causal chain starts with the plausible assumption that the company currently does not pay enough to attract candidates with the skills they want, and/or is performing inadequate testing for those skills when hiring. Therefore their recent hires are drawn from a pool of candidates who have fewer other job opportunities they can successfully apply for, likely because they are under-educated, under-skilled, and lacking in self-confidence, all of which correlate with membership of lower socioeconomic classes and/or minority groups. Under such conditions, a systematically higher probability of ethnic minority status among subpar employees is guaranteed, even if there is no conscious racial bias at play within the company.
          This does not rule out the possibility of there also being some unconscious class/racial bias, e.g. in assuming that any “native speaker of English” must logically be perfectly able to use a given standard written variety of English.

    5. WellRed*

      It sounds frustrating but I think your plan for now is your best bet because I also see why HR would be wary. I also wonder what hiring practices need to be fixed going forward but understand that may be out of your control.

      1. Stressed*

        They didn’t give her any kind of skills test or writing test, and didn’t check references. Part of the trouble we’re having is that our company isn’t offering appealing enough pay and flexibility, so the best candidates are (understandably) going to those companies that ARE providing more appealing packages.

        1. PollyQ*

          Then you don’t just have an employee problem, you have an employer problem. Sure, go ahead & do what you need to so that you can let this employee go, but I’d have every expectation that the next employee will be no better. You might want to think about how much of your career you want to spend fighting against your company just to do good work and have competent co-workers.

      2. WellRed*

        To clarify though, eventually your employee may need to be let go. Document, document. I second the advice above to separate these employees in your mind.

        1. Stressed*

          2 and 3 are on another workline (I’m the top ranking assistant, 1 is another admin and 2 and 3 are associates)

    6. Warrior Princess*

      How has she reacted to the remedial training so far? Is she engaging and willing to learn? A little confused but up to it? Or pushing back and complaining? Because that should be a factor in your decision making. If she’s pushing back and complaining, I think you’d have grounds to go back to HR and make your case that she also needs to be let go.

      1. Stressed*

        She is willing to learn, but not able. I also don’t get the sense that she fully grasps HOW behind she is.

        1. Cat Lover*

          I used to work with someone like that. It’s a whole different beast- you don’t know what you don’t know.

    7. Girasol*

      Have you looked into a business communication course for her as part of a professional development plan?

      1. Stressed*

        As I said above, it’s like suggesting remedial math for an engineer. It’s a fundamental fit issue.

    8. ferrina*

      There might be a few things to help support this employee.
      1. Templates. Is there copy/paste language she can use to just fill in the blanks? ( I love this for trainees)
      2. Bullet points and agendas. When sending her emails, put them in bullet points. Ask her to respond to each bullet point in bolded text. This can help her organize her thoughts. In meetings, end by reading back the action items and who is responsible for each.
      3. Restructure responsibilities. What is she good at? Can she do more of that?
      4. Shadowing or having people shadow her. This can help her get practice and see how other people effectively communicate.

      I’d also take a second look at the organizations hiring and onboarding practices. It sounds like the majority of your black employees aren’t meeting expectations. What’s happened at your company that’s led to this? Is your recruiting process not attracting diverse candidates? Does the training program have some unconscious bias (assuming social capital or knowledge)? This is incredible common in a lot of institutions- my own very well-meaning company struggles with this (we’re actually redoing our entire training program to help combat this)

      1. Stressed*

        Put bluntly: she’s not good at anything. Her skills range from mediocre to extremely poor.

        We’ve tried templates for outlook meetings, she doesn’t understand them or won’t consistently fill them out. 2mos of feedback with minimal progress. As for business communication, templates will not work. You need to have the judgement and skill to write without one, as this job is fast paced & high level.

        She’s being so shadowed by the third team admin that it’s starting to cause a massive work backload that’s so large it’s causing delays for OTHER teams. I’m doing work that should be going to my other admin, but other admin is busy shadowing and re explaining simple concepts to 1.

        1. Hiring Mgr*

          Since you mention you’re not the manager, what exactly is your role in all this? Sounds like the actual manager needs to be looped in (and maybe look at the hiring process too?)

          1. Stressed*

            The actual manager IS looped in, but isn’t doing his due diligence in actually MANAGING her. I have a similar role to hers, so the third admin and I have been the ones writing up her progress and evaluations. It speaks to a larger problem at our company which is that the admin staff is managed by people who don’t understand admin jobs and don’t put the same effort in that they’d put for the people working on the analytical/business end.

            1. WantonSeedStitch*

              Can you and the third admin put some pressure on the actual manager here? Be blunt: “her work is so bad that it’s taking X amount of our time just to try to straighten things out that she messes up/retrain her on things we’ve trained her on repeatedly/etc. If she’s allowed to continue to work in this role with this kind of performance and not have any consequences for it, it feels like there’s not much incentive for Admin 3 and me to continue to perform at a high level, or to take up her slack.”

              1. Stressed*

                We did do that, which prompted the response from HR. they know how bad it is and keep suggesting band aids for a very broken leg.

                1. WellRed*

                  I’m not being facetious when I say, maybe putting bandaids on a broken leg is exactly how you should put it.

                2. Hogsmeade AirBNB*

                  @WellRed I literally did :( I’m very frustrated with HR and her manager.

                3. LilyP*

                  Have you talked to *your* boss about how much of your time this is taking & the impacts it’s having on other work, and does she agree that this is a good use of your time and energy? If not, can she go to bat for you with this person’s manager or HR and insist that something has to change? If they don’t want to fire her, can they change who is responsible for her work or reassign her somewhere so that she’s not *your* problem?

                  Also, if you’re documenting stuff, focus hard on the consequences of this *to the business* — are meetings getting missed? Deadlines misunderstood? Clients complaining? What, specifically, are you or other admins not getting done because of the time you’re spending training or cleaning up after this person? You feeling annoyed or embarrassed is not a business consequence, so try to keep it all very dry and factual.

                  Honestly, I get the vibe that you are very detail-oriented and conscientious and having to deal with this persistent incompetence is bothering you on an emotional level, like nails on the chalkboard of your soul, but for right now you don’t have the authority to fix this and the people with authority have decided not to act. I think you need to give yourself some emotional distance from feeling responsible for this situation. Can you keep the running list of impacts but otherwise try to mentally shrug/laugh/roll your eyes at her word-salads? Maybe a private bingo game out of what creative misspelling she’ll come up with next?

                4. Stressed*

                  @Lily We are high level global finance dealing with sovereigns, so it’s really really REALLY important that *everyone* is competent.

                  My boss is aware of all of this, but it wouldn’t be the person in her position dealing with this, and her plate is full with more important things than staffing. My boss is team “document so that her firing is watertight.”

                  Her mistakes, particularly with clients, make our firm look bad at a time when we cannot afford it.

    9. Tired Social Worker*

      Is this a difference in communication in their socioeconomic class of origin? Often times those from a lower socioeconomic status struggle with the unspoken rules and communication styles of middle and other upper classes. I would recommend looking at some of Dr. Ruby Payne’s work where she explains the culture of poverty and how to support students and professionals with this concept.

      1. Stressed*

        Yes, but she’s (according to her resume, which I strongly suspect she didn’t write / exaggerated her skills on) an admin with 20 years of experience who claims to have years of experience on the exact same softwares we have been unsuccessfully training her on for months. Her skills and claimed experience do not at all line up to a really extreme degree.

        1. Tired Social Worker*

          Ugh that’s hard. Here is how I would sit approach it. I would not make a PIP but I would start doing biweekly meetings with a strength based approach. Ask her what she thinks she is doing well and you tell her what she is doing well. Ask her what she thinks she needs to improve on (she may know she needs improvement but is in over her head and is afraid to ask) and then tell her what you think she needs improvement on. Set a goal for improvement by the next meeting and provide specific examples of what what she is doing and what you want it to look like. This can help determine a skills deficit (can to) versus a willingness deficit (want to and that is why I fudged my resume). If things don’t start to improve then you have standing to start a PIP

          1. Stressed*

            She’s 7 months in and still asks how to CC someone on an email. She claims 20 years experience as an admin. I’m tearing my hair out trying to get anyone at my company to understand that they’re suggesting putting band aids on a broken leg.

              1. Stressed*

                Even if I could, I wouldn’t have any agency to make it change. I wrote explicitly in my evaluation of her that I don’t think she wrote her resume OR cover letter because there is such a massive difference in quality, and a difference in the skills we’re seeing vs the skills she says she has.

                1. Cj*

                  If you call her former employers to verify her experience with the software she claims to have used, and it turns out that she lied, would that HR “cover” to fire her without worrying about the fact that she is black?

                  Also, the examples that you gave are such egregious errors that if she did try to sue for discrimination, I would imagine her attorney with the drop her case immediately as soon as they saw your documentation.

                2. Stressed*

                  @CJ That’s assuming they’d tell me. Finance people tend to be overly cautious with that kind of thing.

                3. Cj*

                  Oh good lord, it’s really embarrassing in this particular thread that I keep using speech to text and keep missing errors on edit.

              2. Stressed*

                I personally think HR is trying to cover their ass because they know they screwed up the vetting entirely.

                1. Sylvan*

                  :( I suggested verifying your resume because I thought, if the resume was fabricated, you could show that to her manager or HR. But if HR is covering their butts instead of solving the problem, that’s not going to help.

      2. Sylvan*

        I know you don’t mean it this way, but this may come off as a little condescending towards people of lower SES. We’re adults and can definitely grasp basic literacy and job responsibilities.

      3. Cj*

        Isn’t that usually more along the lines of using a different vernacular, though? The examples given are typos, like honor instead of honest, and punctuation (or lack thereof). She typed honest correctly in a different sentence, so that’d not a socio economic difference, it is a typo.

    10. RagingADHD*

      Can you (or her manager) require her to use a grammar checker on written communications? I just pasted those samples into Google Docs and the built-in grammar check caught most of it. I bet Grammarly or something similar would catch even more.

      Probably not worth it on thank you notes, but for external communications or anything that should convey important information to management, it seems like a relatively easy fix.

      That isn’t going to help with other parts of her performance, but it could at least make a big improvement in the writing. And compliance with the requirement will be a good indication of how trainable she is.

      1. Stressed*

        We’ve tried that, but her writing is so bad that there’s no program that could catch every error. Several programs & no improvement.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I’m not talking about enough improvement to make sure she keeps her job. I’m talking about making it easier to understand what she’s saying and so that she doesn’t embarrass the company with clients.

          If there was literally zero improvement then she is not actually using the program. So that’s a data point you can document.

          1. Stressed*

            The thing is: she IS using the programs. I watch her use them. The writing is so incomprehensible that the programs might as well be sending middle finger emojis in response.

            1. Everything Bagel*

              I feel terrible for laughing, but my word. I feel for you, too. Does she speak coherently and follow along in conversations in person? It’s hard to imagine someone fully alert and sober writing like that, or not reading it before sending it and realizing how wrong it is.

              1. Stressed*

                She speaks coherently enough most of the time, but I don’t get the sense that her …processing? Is that great. Between my speaking and her brain…something gets lost. You can tell she’s nodding along but not understanding. It’s really frustrating.

    11. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      How does she communicate verbally? Is it the same? From what you wrote, it sounds like she has an idea that she must be overly formal in her written communication and then it ends up stilted and garbled. I have a colleague like this — she can be strangely formal in her written communication, like she got out the thesaurus and used the biggest fanciest words she could find — because she’s been criticized in the past for being much too informal and then “coached” by someone who really just didn’t like her personality.

      If your employee is completely incompetent in all of her job duties, then you need to let her go, but if it’s really just her (written) communication, then I think, just a little, you might be too harsh. The bits about “make sure you answer every question…” could apply to just about every person at my university top to bottom IME…even if I bullet point 3 questions, I might get the first one answered. And this one, “engineer needing to do remedial math” — a phenomenon I’ve seen often in my university are that people who have advanced knowledge in a subject, can struggle with going back to basics because they have progressed so far beyond them.

      1. Stressed*

        Here’s another example: manager asked 1 to reschedule an internal 1:1. This is an incredibly quick action for a skilled admin, it takes maybe less than 30 seconds. manager had to ask 1 3x to reschedule this meeting before it was done. 1 claims (above, the “to be honor” Teams msg) that she thought she had completed the request at 9:10am, and the changes were reflected in the calendar. In this role, you are looking at the calendar portion of Outlook constantly throughout the day. Over 10x an hour. 1, if she were looking at the calendar as often as this role dictates, would have *seen* that the meeting had not been rescheduled. She also told her manager to watch his tone with her. I reviewed the exchange between 1 and manager, and all I saw from manager’a end was understandable and office-appropriate frustration that this simple request had not been filled despite asking 3x. Also – if she thought this was done at 9:10am…. Why did she not ask herself why manager asked her two more times, after 9:10am, to make sure it was done?

    12. Anonymous Koala*

      I wonder if this is a spell check issue. Maybe her spelling is terrible and she’s just clicking through Microsoft’s spellcheck without actually making judgement calls about each correction. Could you get her to consider each change individually? Also see if she can read everything she writes out loud before she sends it. Sometimes people are much better at catching mistakes when they hear them.

      Also Grammarly is amazing at correcting this type of thing if your company’s security system allows for it (a lot of IT departments won’t allow it though). Can you recommend the free version to your employee if that’s an option?

      1. Stressed*

        This goes deeper than spellcheck. We’ve tried several programs and none of them are able to catch her errors. It’s that bad. Furthermore, because she’s so awful at her job, my colleague and I are already overworked and don’t have the time to look over her shoulder to proof each email.

        1. Emma*

          I’m sorry you’re feeling stressed and that this is happening. This seems to be frustrating and weighing on your very heavily. You don’t seem to be in the frame of mind to be considering the suggestions presented here. I wonder what you would feel helpful to you at this time.

          1. Stressed*

            I don’t mean to be rude, but it’s not that I’m not receptive: it’s that the suggestions are band aids on a broken leg, or things I’ve already tried.

            1. ResearchalatorLady*

              I agree that you seem to be more worried about 1 making the company look bad than her manager or HR do, and that’s because you care about your work… but it’s time to take a mental step back. Unless you’re about to be chastised for not magically making 1’s work better, that’s a mental burden you are taking on that you don’t need to. Your boss, 1’s boss, and HR have more responsibility for her impact on clients than you, and if she makes a bad impression, that’s on them. Good luck!

          2. Cj*

            I don’t think there are any suggestion we could make to help improve the employee’s performance. I think the only thing that would be helpful would be suggestions on how to convince HR that this person needs to be fired.

        2. Disco Janet*

          English teacher here, and these kind of mistakes still being made in adulthood likely indicate that she would need a remedial course helping her catch up on grammar – and it would still likely be tough. Perhaps in the future, part of the interview process could be emailing the interviewer a (very brief) sample memo, so you can check for proficient literacy and technology skills?

          I’m curious about what her role is. I’ve been thinking about trying to shift fields to something better paying, but figuring out what else to do with an English degree and secondary education experience is tricky.

    13. Eagle*

      My first thought, based on the writing examples, was that the EE wasn’t a native English speaker. If they are a native speaker, I’m not sure you can fix that. While the optics may be poor if you have to fire the three of them, is there any way to transfer them to other jobs that don’t require the skills that the three EEs are lacking?

    14. anonymous73*

      I can’t speak to the others, because as you said it’s all hearsay, but if 1s performance is that poor and you have documented samples and proof that you’ve tried to help her improve by providing clear expectations, there should be no issue with letting her go. If they’re simply NOT letting her go because of race, that’s no better than not hiring someone for that same reason. The bottom line is that she’s not a fit for the role.

    15. Everything Bagel*

      Does your employee use a speech to text application? These types of errors are exactly the type that I see when I use speech to text on my cell phone.

    16. calvin blick*

      I have some good rules for OP–the Black employees are not the only incompetent ones at this company! Based on OP’s responses, HR and OP’s manager are also doing their jobs very poorly.

      1. Stressed*

        Turnover in HR is *insane* right now. Everyone competent has left. The people who came in to replace the competent people have left. It’s a nightmare.

        1. calvin blick*

          If it makes you feel any better, we had two similar employees (both white) at my previous job. One somehow managed to stay on for years in spite of the fact he did minimal work poorly (although he was at least competent enough to eventually produce something useful) and would do stuff like email the CEO of the whole company to try to persuade him to implement a theocracy. The other one was even less competent, made it very clear he did not care at all, and eventually left without any warning. The last we heard about him he was arrested for stabbing someone in the neck at a McDonalds.

        2. SloanGhost*

          Maybe…you leave? If they wanna let 1 drive off high-profile clients with her word salad, let ’em flop.

    17. Observer*

      I completely understand HRs hesitations and concerns. I also feel totally screwed.

      You feel that way, because you ARE. HR is not doing it’s job. Neither is your manager.

      You’ve gotten some good feedback, but from what you say you’re very much up a creek without a paddle. I would seriously start looking for a new job. And, I probably wouldn’t even look within the company for a transfer because it sounds like some of the problems are company wide.

      1. Stressed*

        1 and I don’t share the same manager. I am the assistant to the global head of our department, which includes 5 teams. 1’s manager is the NA regional head for one of the 5 teams- so the manager is a direct report of my boss’s direct report.

        As for leaving—- I adore my boss, she is awesome. I’ve worked for some assholes before, and the fact that she herself is such a pleasure to work with is no small consideration for me. If I leave, I might have more money or competence, but this is finance in NYC: I’d almost definitely work for an asshole, and that’s not a dynamic I’m willing to work with again. She is so great that the “stay” column still far outweighs the “leave” column.

        1. TPS reporter*

          Is there any way to distance yourself from the sphere of responsibility for this other person and just focus on your duties? Can you cordon off her assignments specifically to her so there’s no overlap and just let them fail if that’s what happens?

          1. Stressed*

            I wish, but without going into too much detail the structure & intersections make that method unfeasible :/

        2. crazy tuesday*

          given that yo like your boss, it’s time to bounce this issue to your boss: #1’s performance issues cost me 5 hours per week. What would you like me to move to lower priority until I get those hours back?
          The other admin needs to go to her boss with the same statement.
          If your company doesn’t pay as competitively as other places, this issue is bound to happen.

        3. Maiden of the Spear*

          OP, how on earth does someone with the communication deficiencies, which you’ve described as your direct report having, ever get hired at a global finance company? Isn’t there at least a degree requirement?

        4. Manchmal*

          If I understand what you wrote, your boss and this other admin’s boss is not the person. In that case, your boss should care immensely that her admin person’s time and sanity are being severely disrupted due to her colleague’s lack of attention to his reports. I think you need to go to your boss and enlist her help in solving this.

          1. Stressed*

            She was the person who told me about the 123 issue. In so many words, her guidance is “document, and make sure it’s watertight”

    19. Jarissa*

      Stressed, I agree that you are in a tough spot here, and that it’s time to start leaning heavily on your own boss (since it reads to me that you and she value each other) to lean hard on 1’s manager to take action. I suspect that 1 is not going to invest her own efforts into solving her problems until she has the specific outside motivation of having obviously upset a person whose reactions matter to 1. You and 1’s manager, for whatever reason, are currently in the category of folks who do not matter to 1. Only 1’s manager has any possibility of fixing that, I think.

      The “too long” anecdata:

      I once had to train a woman who was a lot like 1, as far as task competencies and learning go. I’ll call my ex-problem “Liz”. For context, though, this administrative job was not in the financial sector. Liz was hired to be _my_ boss, meaning that the idea was I should be teaching her one set of processes that were shared tasks in our office and then giving her an overview of the other processes specific to my job so that she could accurately make “big picture” decisions for our department.

      (Also: Liz was a middle-class white lady, fifth generation US native, roughly 20 years older than myself, probably would have used the word “gumption” to explain why her listed job history did not leave any room for why I had to teach her how to use so many basic office supplies universal to our field of work.)

      I spent months patiently teaching her the job that my grandboss hired her to do. I asked her about her hobbies, and related fundamental processes to the same thought process by which she would knit a towel or prepare a volunteering schedule for her Pinewood Derby racing club. I walked her through a middle-complexity invoicing process fifteen times over the course of two weeks, each time pointing out exactly how I was figuring out which line item went where, and then had her walk me through the same thing again while literally putting her finger on what she thought was the deciding factor and why it meant that it went in a particular stack.

      At the same time, I worked 11 hour weekdays and all weekend in order to get the actual work done; more than four-fifths of it had tight deadlines each day, especially Mondays, and if I was 3 minutes late then that put Payroll or other affected departments more than half an hour late on getting their subsequent work accomplished.

      Her boss, my grandboss, spent most of his time out of office — he was as much Chief Salesman as he was Branch Manager. I requested appointments with him once every few weeks to meet, to update him on how the training of Liz was going. At the third appointment, I asked him to try teaching Liz the invoice thing, because I was out of ideas on why she couldn’t wrap her mind around it.

      At the fourth, I handed him my notice, because I had developed a bizarre medical condition that, in retrospect, came from that discouraging workload. Going back to normal was not going to be enough for me to recover. I needed to go haunt a specialist’s office until they figured me out.

      By my last day, Liz seemed to be figuring things out for the most part! She could do a whole day’s tasks without having to be taught them all over again from scratch, three days of the week! She was aware that if she missed that one o’clock deadline each weekday, it created snowballing troubles in several directions across the company! Someone else could think up new ways to teach her the remaining stuff her resume had claimed she already knew.

      My last day was a Friday. The very next Monday was a federal holiday, but not a company holiday. Still, lighter workload day due to the bank and some of our business partners being closed.

      And on that Tuesday, I got a phone call from the head of a completely different department, asking me to walk him through how to open the time-clock application — do whatever needed doing — and tell it to forward its information to the main computers of the company. Liz heard from people who were not standing in front of her, people who could not be dismissed as “that nice salesman who needs me to look after him” or “that young woman who I can’t consider an expert because she’s only my daughter’s age”, that she honestly did need to be able to think her way through all these tasks in a timely manner, and get them right the first time. These people said on the phone that she needed to do her job because she was already making significant trouble for fifteen other people, all of whom would have to stay late to fix this mess.

      Liz waited until her boss walked into the building to ask why was his boss calling about her, whereupon she promptly quit. Effective instantly.

      Don’t let 1 be Liz, Stress! You deserve better than I did. You do not deserve Mystery Biological Problem. All too often, Mystery Biological Problems lead to ADA accommodations, and then nobody’s having a successful day. Ask your boss to help. Ask your boss to order 1’s manager to handhold her, or to transfer her directly to HR’s daily to-do list, or to figure out for you what you can do instead of dealing with 1 yourself.

    20. Snarky Snarkerson*

      Can the company purchase a Grammerly extension for Outlook for this employee? Then, someone would ostensibly teach them how to use it. Might save at least some embarrassment with client communications. We did this for an employee, but they recognized their issues on their own.

  15. korangeen*

    Bear with me as I give some background info before my question.

    I’m working on a small team, and at the moment there are only three of us—myself, the team lead, and a coworker. I’ve only been working with them part-time for the past three months, but they’ve been pretty busy for years now, so the co-worker scheduled a workshop for us this morning to talk about burnout. I’m not burnt out because I just got here, but with such a small group I thought it would be weird for me to not join. But the calendar invite my co-worker sent had very little info, just a title (The V.U.C.A. Reframe: Burnout to Resilience) and the email address of who she was referring to as the “guest speaker.” So I tried asking for more info—what is this going to be covering, and is there anything we need to prepare? She insisted that’s it’s not something you need to prepare for, but said it would be an interactive workshop where we’re expected to have our cameras on. Yikes, my nightmare, having to have my camera on in a small group and interact but not knowing what to prepare to talk about. So I started doing some google searches trying to figure out who is this guy, what the heck is VUCA, what is this workshop going to entail. It was very confusing, it seemed this guy worked for a housing organization and a faith-based substance abuse treatment center, which has nothing to do with our work, and I couldn’t find any info about him hosting workshops on burnout. Is he getting paid for this? Where did we find him? No clue. I found some info on VUCA, and a lot of it was focused around healthcare (again nothing to do with our work), some of it basically trying to convince people they shouldn’t be emotional about covid. I relayed my findings in our slack chat. My coworker explained that this guest speaker owns the treatment center where she used to work, and assured me that the workshop wouldn’t be “telling us not to be emotional about the state of the world.”

    Cut to this morning: I join the workshop, where it’s just the three of us and this guy, and he’s droning on and on as he slowly goes through his slides, and about halfway through, he says, “Fun fact about me: my daughter’s in this workshop.” HE WAS HER DAD!! This whole time! I privately message our team lead saying that this is super awkward, and it was really bizarre that I didn’t have any of this context. The team lead replies saying “sorry, probably because I’m so burned out I didn’t even register this would be bizarre without context.”

    So my question is: do I need to address this somehow with my co-worker? Or can I just pretend that this awkwardness never happened?

    1. korangeen*

      And now the co-worker is asking me in the slack channel what I thought of the workshop. I mean, personally I hated it, but I doubt there’s any value in telling her that. I’mmmm just going to pretend like I didn’t see her question…

      1. the cat's ass*

        YIIIIKES. Talk about no due diligence! Wonder what that cost your company. re the co worker, I’d go with “that was interesting.”

        1. korangeen*

          I assume he did this for free. We’re government contractors, so it’s a real hassle to pay for anything.

      2. Twisted Lion*

        What a nightmare. Sounds like you were the Dad’s test/practice for his workshop. I wouldnt be brutally honest but maybe just say it didnt apply to you since you arent burnt out yet. And then suggest less screen reading of slides. LOL

      3. JustMyImagination*

        If she asks again- “I’m still digesting the information” or something along those lines, maybe?

      4. WellRed*

        I would have voted for not addressing this but I doubt she’ll stop pestering you about what you thought. Your team lead doesn’t look to good either first for allowing this, second for her telling you she’s burned out and that’s why this went through. What are you even supposed to do with that?

      5. anonymous73*

        I would be honest with them. “In the future when you set up something like this, I would appreciate having all of the information so I can decide if it’s right for me to attend. I honestly didn’t find any value in this particular workshop.”

        But it’s completely understandable if you don’t want to rock the boat with your small team. I just hate letting inappropriate things just go by the wayside like they never happened.

    2. Warrior Princess*

      It sounds bizarre, and I would be strongly on team ‘pretend it never happened’. If your coworker pushes I would say something along the lines of ‘I haven’t been feeling super burnt out but I hope you and COLLEAGUE got some benefit’.

      But also, use this info in thinking on your workplace. Your whole team is burnt out. There are clear boundary issues (inviting a coworkers parent for a small seminar like this seems kind of weird, since they’re not some sort of super-speaker). Their solution to burnout is weird workshops. This is not an environment that promises good things for your mental health.

      1. korangeen*

        “Pretend it never happened” is definitely my inclination! And, yeah, you’re not wrong on the boundary issues and weird solutions. What on earth was going through her head to not say that this was her dad when I was asking who this was?? Dunno.

    3. ferrina*

      What a nightmare! And so bizarre! I’d find an excuse to casually mention this to HR or someone higher up that could have a word with this colleague about how ridiculously inappropriate this was.

      For what to say- “I appreciate the intent behind this, but it didn’t really meet where I’m at. I’m not feeling burnt out at all! If we do anything like this in the future, it would be great to have more context about this.”

      1. korangeen*

        You know what, I think she and I actually are on the same subcontracting company, but I don’t think this company has an HR. I could mention it to the guy who’s technically my supervisor for the company, but I doubt he’d know what to do with it. (The organizational structure for all the contractors and subcontractors at a government agency has always been super confusing to me. Essentially the company is just there to cut you a paycheck.) I do have a one-on-one meeting later today with the civil servant who’s the lead for the broader team, but he’s not really the best at interpersonal issues, so I’m thinking through whether telling him would be more trouble than it’s worth.

    4. Two Chairs, One to Go*

      Yikes. I’m not really sure. Maybe connect with your team lead to find out if this sort of thing is common? It’s so strange!

      I’ve worked at a place where a coworker’s family member was invited to be a speaker (one of many) but it was public knowledge mentioned in the blurb when you sign up – and the speaker was also relevant to our field.

    5. Dark Macadamia*

      I probably wouldn’t say anything, but I’d be really tempted to name the awkwardness – “why didn’t you tell me he was your dad?”/”It threw me off to find out you’re related, you should’ve mentioned that when I was asking for more info!” Could be a good way to dodge her actual question while also seeming interested, lol

  16. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    I’ll be traveling to my company’s HQ in July for Six Sigma Yellow Belt training.

    Anyone here who’s been through it recently? Just wondering what to expect, as I’ve never trained in any formal quality process before.

      4. Mrs. Pommeroy*

        This is oddly specific advise. Would you mind elaborating, Liz?
        Please please please please? xD

        1. Sassafras*

          This is from the Six Sigma episode of 30 Rock! To be honest, until today I thought Six Sigma was some ridiculous business concept made up for the tv show!

    2. SoloKid*

      I did mine over a decade ago but hopefully the mathematical foundations are the same lol. Good luck! I really liked it from a theoretical/business POV.

      To make it useful though you really need to have a black belt that is committed to capturing/analyzing data and having the authority to make changes if needed. Management sent us for the training but didn’t expound further on what kinds of projects they thought could benefit from 6S. Too much “well get it done anyway even if it’s not efficient” going on.

    3. Sandra Dee*

      I have gone through Green Belt and Black Belt training offered by my company, in conjuction with a local university. It is a very intense week of training. My green belt class did have a lego project. My black belt class built helicopters and did an activity with wind up cars. Expect to be mentally exhausted at the end of each day. If you think are going to be able to do some of your regular duties in the off hours, don’t. It is a lot of information tossed at you in a single week. Additionally, I had to pass an exam, for both Green and Black Belt, plus complete 2 projects for Green Belt certification and one larger project for Black Belt. These requirements could be specific for my company, so don’t count on this as gospel.

      Good luck. I enjoyed the classes.

  17. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I have two thoughts. First my therapist insists people are bad at their jobs but feel fine. What skill are you worst at? I’m terrible at filling in the gaps- if you tell me what to do I’ll do it, but if you require me to construct it myself I won’t be able to

    Also on resumes how do you write about informal mentoring? Like I do the ‘ so this is what we do here” spiel for new employees , they shadow me and I explain the easier bits of the job.

    1. hmmmmmmm*

      For informal mentoring, I usually focus on the skill involved that I’m passing on–for example, I’m good at teaching employees the ins and outs of using Windows/our printer/our software, so I put something like “known for expertise in [industry] technology and troubleshooting, and a go-to resource for other employees on [industry software].”

    2. Ali + Nino*

      OK, I’ll bite. For my current job: I don’t think I’m great, and there are parts of my job that I haven’t been good at for a while. (In particular, the creative/coming up with new ideas part. I feel like I’ve lost motivation. Give me a task, and I’ll do it, and do it as well as I can, like you said.) Overall, I think I’m doing a mediocre job, in large part because I just don’t prioritize work the way I might have before having a family, and certainly before the pandemic. In terms of feeling fine – yep, this is fine for now. I keep my job. I want to ask for a raise based on increased output, but I don’t know if I really merit it. My philosophy right now is, “If I’m doing such a bad job, go ahead, fire me. I will find a new job.” Not because my skills are in such high demand, or because I think I’m so great, but because I believe that there are enough jobs out there that I am CAPABLE of doing, not hating, and earning a “good enough” salary/benefits, that I am not going to be married to any one job. It doesn’t define me.

      Tbh, I think if you’d told me this was what I’d be like when I was in college, I would have been extremely disappointed in myself. But life happens, we reprioritize, and I no longer want to let “perfect” get in the way of “good enough” (to riff on Brene Brown). Good luck, I hope this helps.

    3. Diluted Tortoishell*

      I wouldn’t consider what you do, showing them around, having new hires shadow you, training on the basics/foundation of the job as “informal mentoring”. I’ve seen that phrase mainly used to describe being available for coffee once a quarter with a promising new hire to discuss questions about the industry and company.

      I’d say something like: Trained new hires on X, Y, and Z processes.

    4. Chaordic One*

      Well, I’m not that great at my job and I don’t feel good about it. Of course, most of my coworkers who do the same thing aren’t great at their jobs either, but quite a few of them feel fine about it. The questions I get from customers are just so incredibly random and frequently very bizarre. Just the situations they get themselves into. And I’m not so hot at looking up what to do to resolve their problems in our badly-written and pathetically slow online manual. I find it very stressful when I trying to do that while I have a customer on the phone looking for service. I’m reluctant to put them on hold because our phone system is the pits and there’s a good chance they’ll get disconnected.

      You can certainly include something like onboarded, trained and mentored new employees on your resume.

    5. Purple Cat*

      1st question – absolutely there are plenty of people who are mediocre at best at their work and just don’t give an F. I’m the opposite and objectively perform well, but I believe I suck. My biggest struggle is with long-range planning, I love structure and short-term deadlines, managing things that drag out forever, or squeezing those “above and beyond” projects into my workload is rough.

      2nd question – You are absolutely doing “training and mentoring of new employees; including initial job introduction (without all this crazy alliteration) and job shadowing.

    6. Your local password resetter*

      I’m bad at thinking on my feet. I can do fine with scripts and lists, but throw me a curve ball and I need to take some time to formulate a response. Also my writing isn’t that great.

      I tend to be very self-concious and guilt driven about my job performance, so if I screw up I try to keep perspective and focus on being good enough. Even if it took some messing around and help from people, if the basic job gets done then all is fine. And if it doesn’t, then its not the end of the world either. Life happens, and I try to move on.
      Easier said than done of course, but its better than guilt-tripping myself.

    7. Merle Grey*

      I can always find room for improvement in how I work, but bosses and and other higher-ups say I’m doing a really good job, so I don’t worry about it except if it makes things easier for me to change anything. I work with a handful of people who are struggling with very basic things in a fairly basic job, and they don’t seem to be too bothered by that. I’m also earning less than I was 8 years ago, and I wasn’t overpaid back then, so meh? I am not letting myself get emotionally invested in this job.

      I saw something recently where someone (a comedian?) said for most people, paychecks are the ultimate participation trophy, and they are probably right, based on my observations from many years of work in various fields.

  18. Jellyfish*

    All the recent discussion here about voicemails and phone calls has me much more aware of how often I use the phone at work. This morning alone, I made two directly work-related calls and received a third. I don’t work in reception, a call center, or any position that would automatically include heavier phone usage. Sometimes it’s just a better option for making contact.
    While I check my voicemail (both at work and on my personal phone), I don’t generally leave them for other people.

    Am I a weirdo for calling occasionally, or does the commenting population here skew more toward phone aversion than average?
    I’m a Millennial in the US if that makes any difference.

    1. Terrible as the Dawn*

      If you are calling in a business capacity, please leave a voicemail. I recently had some work done on my car and I didn’t find out until later in the day when I was calling in a panic to see if my car was going to be ready in time for me to drive home that the two missed calls from earlier that morning were the repair shop telling me my car was ready.

      Calling for work purposes is not at ALL weird.

    2. CatCat*

      You’re not a weirdo. Sometimes it is faster to get things sorted over the phone than in an email exchange. If I need to make a call, I make a call. If the call is to someone internal, I can see their calendar status and make sure they are not showing as “busy” or “in a meeting” before calling.

      The thing that I don’t like and maybe it’s just because I am not as used to it as phone calls are Teams calls. I never know if I am supposed to turn my camera on or not. And I have to scramble to get my headset on to answer it.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      In general, the commenter here hate phone calls. I much prefer written communication myself, but sometimes it is just easier to talk to someone. (I hate voicemail, though.)
      I’m also wondering if folks would consider a Zoom or Teams meeting where all attendees are audio-only (cameras off) to be the same thing as a phone call. I think it may be, unless you’re doing screen sharing or something more interactive.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Ha, that should be “commenters”… not just the one commenter! Oh, and I’m Gen X, the generation that confuses everyone technology-wise.

      2. Jellyfish*

        I’ve never had an unplanned Zoom call and would find that very weird. Phone calls are different in my head – an unscheduled medium that doesn’t require a technological paper trail and never includes the pressure to be on video.

        1. Pam Adams*

          I have quite a few unplanned Zoom calls- I’m an academic advisor, so my Zoom is up and running all day. Students will drop in after emailing me or sometimes just dial in if they’ve seen me before. Hooray for the Zoom waiting room!

          To make them more phone-like, many students leave their cameras off. The ability to screen-share is what makes it work.

      3. A*

        I 100% consider Teams meetings (audio only) to be the same as a phone call. I can count on two hands the number of calls I’ve had in the last three years that weren’t through Teams (internal or external). Either it’s a prescheduled meeting, or if it’s in the immediate we’ll send a message first asking if they have a few minutes to chat and then hop on a call, which I consider to be the same as a Teams meeting.

    4. The Dude Abides*

      I think it very much depends on the context of the job.

      When communicating with a member of the public that my agency works with (I’m in a state gov’t agency), 90% of the time it’s over the phone since the people I am communicating with might not have an email, let alone check it regularly. Anyone else, I prefer email because I want something in writing to lean on when it hits the fan.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      Exjob mostly used email and IM but clients would call if they had an issue downloading their reports. I knew to answer my phone when it rang since it was either a client or my team lead who liked to verbally process certain things. My boss used email. All these people ran the gamut agewise, so I think it’s less a generational thing than just a shift toward new technology and IM/text in general.

      I second Terrible as the Dawn; if you call, please leave voicemail. People are much less likely to call you back if you don’t. They might just assume it was a spam call or a misdial if they don’t recognize the number.

    6. Little beans*

      Personally, if someone wants to call me, I prefer that they send me a chat to ask if it’s a good time first. I’m in meetings most of the day, so if someone just calls me without notice, they’re going to have a hard time reaching me. Our unit recently moved and didn’t bother installing phones in our new offices, so that tells you how much we use them here. I have to give out my cell number when a call is really important.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Same. I don’t mind phone calls and routinely have hour+ long conversations, but I do like the heads up through chat or text first rather than cold calling. When it’s up to me I’ll set meeting times with people to have what is essentially a phone conversation because I like to be able to plan for it.

        What I don’t like is people telling me I need to call people rather than rely on email, when that directive is coming from a third party who just thinks calling is the only way to do business.

        FWIW GenX here.

        1. allathian*

          I’m the same way. I’ll use the phone for business when I have to, and sometimes it really is the only option. But I find cold calls really disruptive. I’m very bad with names, and on cold calls, more often than not, I have to ask the person their name again before the end of the call, unless I know the person well enough to recognize their voice. When people start their call with “Hello, this is…” I don’t retain the name long enough to write it down, because if it’s a cold call, I’m still scrambling to collect myself from the shock of the phone ringing… Luckily I only have internal clients, but there’s no automated contact list in our system (which I think is asinine, to be frank), so only people I’m in contact with regularly enough to warrant putting them in my contacts manually show who’s calling.

          For me, Teams is definitely not the same as a phone call, at least on Teams I can see who’s calling even if it’s a cold call. That said, most people who want to talk to me do ask on IM first.

          Gen X.

      2. A*

        Same. I don’t even have a work landline phone. I have my work cell, which the folks who need the number have, and Teams. My work cell is really only for when I’m not at my desk / travelling / the few external stakeholders I work with that don’t use Teams. All my internal stakeholders just send me a message since it alerts on my phone the same as a text.

    7. Sundial*

      My perspective, as someone who works with heavily regulated products, is that documenting something in writing means it will be kept literally for as long as the company exists. In e-mail, on Teams, anywhere on a corporate-issued device: my typing is eternal. So verbally conversing with someone is critical for certain types of conversations, and it gets prioritized moreso than it would in other industries.

    8. Sandie B*

      I’m a millennial in the US too. I prefer written communication where possible but can also appreciate a phone or video call when necessary.

      Since we use chat a lot at my company, I prefer when someone reaches out over chat first to say, hey, do you have 5/15/etc minutes to talk about X? So I’m more prepared and not in the middle of something.

      Sometimes people will call out of the blue and i can’t pick it up because I’m away from my desk. In that case, i don’t mind but i wish they would leave a voicemail or chat message so i can prioritize and prepare properly.

      In my personal life, i actually use phone calls a lot to set up appointments and keep in touch with people, and i always use the phone etiquette my older boomer parents taught me.

      So, long story short, although I’m not a huge fan of unscheduled calls, i can still see why you like them and I’m personally open to compromise

      1. Jellyfish*

        I think there’s a geographically based cultural component too. When I lived in a much different area of the US, I mostly relied on email, and it was fine. Since moving to my current location in 2019, I’ve found the phone is more effective.

        Asynchronous communication is easier and includes a paper trail, but if I have a clarifying question, need a quick fix, want to make first contact with another organization, or schedule something, I’ve learned I get better results with the phone.

        No one listens to voicemails anywhere I’ve lived.

    9. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’m in sales/recruiting. I’m on the phone for at least 2-3 hours a day lol. I’d be screwed without the phone. I, too will always leave a voicemail but will also follow up with an email as well.

    10. SaltedChocolateChip*

      US Millennial. I also prefer emails, and unless you’re someone I work closely with and we’re having a back and forth about something, email>IM. One part of it is definitely an aversion to phones (though once I’m on the call I’m fine and totally personable, have done it in many jobs). Also now that I’m fully remote with few meetings, jumping on a “quick call” if it’s Zoom means being camera presentable without notice.

      But more than that it’s about:
      1. wanting to have a question/request documented (and easy to add to my to do list, rather than having to remember someone asked me something in an IM),
      2. wanting the person to have the question/request clearly stated right away so I don’t spend a lot of time discussing something that really is a simple question/request, and
      3. that it’s easier to loop someone else in/forward to get an opinion, with the requester/questioner’s exact request on record, than to say, “Oh let me go back and ask so-and-so about this” and then have to write the email yourself and hope you haven’t misconstrued the request.

      1. quill*

        This, also: written messages allow for copy paste. Which isn’t that critical until you start dealing with things like “part number BSQ4A9Z” and “Document adskflaglt2408” where a missing or transposed digit or letter can make finding out information in a database impossible. If you copy paste from the document to the email and I copy paste from the email to the database, there is MUCH less room for human error.

    11. JimmyJab*

      I have to use the phone semi-regularly because there is some stuff that is informal but shouldn’t be put in writing (nothing bad, just work for government and everything is a public record). So for me, using the phone occasionally is necessary. Since working remotely though, I usually email and ask if there is a convenient time for a short call.

    12. A Feast of Fools*

      I don’t mind business phone calls but I prefer a heads-up before someone calls. When other people at my company call me out of the blue, I have to switch my audio devices from a bluetooth speaker to a headset, shut down my NPR stream, and pull my brain way up out of the deep work I was doing.

      The call will be much more productive for both of us if the person pings me in Teams before calling me in Teams (our only intra-company communication option).

    13. WantonSeedStitch*

      Not weird. For voice calls in my office, it’s more common to use Slack calls (with video off) for voice calls, as we don’t have work-issued phones and most of us are working remotely so we don’t have desk phones. It’s a good option for anything confidential where we DON’T want a record of what’s discussed (for example, a conversation containing personal health information on a donor–I’m at a nonprofit–that stuff shouldn’t be recorded in our database but it might be important for a fundraiser working with them to know). It’s also good when something would take a lot of writing to explain–anything where there’s a lot of background.

    14. ND and awkward*

      Also a millenial, though in the UK, I don’t think you’re a weirdo. Though I’ve only used my work phone twice in the last 3 years, and one of those was a misclick by a coworker. Pre-pandemic my office had much more of a culture of stopping by someone’s desk, and now it’s a quick IM to ask for a videocall, which I much prefer due to being able to lipread. Judging by the other replies you’ve had I think that makes me the weirdo!

    15. Melanie Cavill*

      I’m a non-US millennial in an Anglo country and I don’t think you’re a weirdo. I have no issue calling people if I can’t get a useful or coherent answer over email. In my previous jobs, I dealt with a lot of defensive engineers that I would need to talk to in soothing tones to make sure they gave me the information I needed… instead of flipping out that an admin was fact-checking their inaccuracies. The phone made that a lot easier to do. I find email preferable because it’s not in real time and I’m Very Busy And Important, but I don’t think someone is weird if they call me instead.

    16. quill*

      So, I hate voicemail. Here are things you can do to make people not hate checking their voicemail.

      – Always make your calls in a quiet, indoor space, with the phone receiver actually pointed at your mouth. You’d be surprised how many people leave voicemails that are incomprehensible because the phone only picks up traffic / the cell phone mumble where the microphone is nowhere near your mouth / the phone ringing and muttering of the entire rest of an open office.
      – If you need to spell something unusual or recite some numbers? Email is usually best. Can’t tell you how many people who have left a voicemail that instructs me to call them about the Bee Cee Tee but on further inspection they just don’t enunciate and it’s actually the Vee Cee Dee.
      – Make sure that when you call it’s into a system where people will actually get their voicemails. At my last six jobs, I had an office phone at four of them and there was no training or instruction whatsoever about how to even get into the voicemail. At current job I don’t even know how to call out from the system because nobody wrote that down anywhere and I’ve had to do it once in a year.
      – If people don’t follow up on a voicemail? Assume it’s either incomprehensible, inaccessable, or they are nowhere near their listed office phone and email instead.

    17. A*

      I prefer email over calls, but despise voicemails above all else. I spend 90% of my work hours in meetings, and if I’m not in a meeting I’m available to accept calls as they come in (and the second my status turns green they come in quickly). If someone calls and I’m not able to pickup – if they follow-up with an email I can multitask and respond accordingly to setup a work block in the upcoming days to address if it’s more complex. I’m often only able to go through my voicemails 1-2 times a week (not an issue as the expectation at my employer is if it is time sensitive they will reach out via Teams in addition to any other communication platforms they’ve tried).

      Definitely depends on the industry, internal v. external stakeholders, and the type of function the individual you’re reaching out to is in. So I guess it’s more of a ‘know your audience’ kind of thing.

  19. Murphy*

    Low stakes question, but I feel myself getting self conscious sometimes. I work from home so I have a lot of zoom meetings. It’s hot where I am, so when I drink a can of LaCroix or other sparkling water, I put a can coozy on to keep it cool. The coozy I have is for a brewery and I’m wondering if people will think I’m drinking a beer.

    It’s completely inoffensive. One side says “Drink [city] Brewing” and the other has their logo which is a big [first letter of city] and then the name of the brewery. Should I be worried about this or am I over thinking it?

    1. Popinki(she/her)*

      People probably won’t notice as long as it’s not sitting right in front of the camera when you’re not drinking, and your hand probably covers up most of the logo when you are drinking.. If it bothers you, if you have an old sock laying around just cut off the top part with the ribbing and put it around the coozy. Any kind of fabric or even paper would do, but the sock works well because it’s already round and stretchy.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Can people see the can/coozy when you’re not drinking from it? If so, can you put it somewhere else on your desk where it’s not visible on camera?

      Can people see the label when you are actively drinking from the can? I think that depending on how much your hand covers and how good the video quality is, most people won’t be able to read the text on the coozy and there’s no reason to worry.

    4. Sadie*

      I’m obsessively private and want to seem unremarkable all day on screen, so I pour my seltzer can into an insulated coffee thermos tumbler thingy, so it stays cool and is more generic than a brand of seltzer. Maybe that would help?

    5. Scott*

      1. I think you probably are over thinking and need not worry.
      2. Some might think you are drinking beer and think nothing of it.
      3. Some might think you are drinking beer and think “What a great idea! I’m gonna get a beer.”

      Drink up!

      1. metadata minion*

        2 & 3 really depend on your field! If someone had a brewery coozie on their selzer in my office I doubt anyone would look twice, but if someone were obviously actually drinking a beer this would Not Ok, on a possibly-firing-worthy level of not ok.

        Unless you were joking? Sorry if I missed tone!

        1. ecnaseener*

          Yeah, there are industries (tech for example) where it’s very very normal to have a beer at work, but in most you Do Not Do That openly, at least in the US.

    6. No koozie for me*

      I would skip the koozie myself, or cover it up. I took flack for pictures of me holding a *root beer* that comes in tall brown bottles. It was a small celebration when we reopened our building after the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake. Continuing aftershocks meant days of bad sleep, and apparently people thought I looked drunk. The jokes went on a little too long to be comfortable for me.

        1. allathian*

          They have, but not necessarily for the better, at least when it comes to perceived alcohol consumption on the job (from the drinker’s perspective).

    7. Excel-sior*

      Is it possible to turn it inside out without breaking it or reducing it’s effectiveness? Or poor it into a glass with some ice cubes?

    8. DisneyChannelThis*

      I would just buy a different cozy. Target and Meijers and Kohls all have summer ones out right now in the seasonal sections. It probably doesn’t matter but on the off chance someone does take away that impression why risk it?

    9. Mockingjay*

      If the company offers a branded koozie, get one of those. Or get a non-branded one; my favorite is a hibiscus print from a dollar store.

    11. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I think you are overthinking it. The coozy would not be a big deal in most industries — maybe if you work for a very conservative employer or industry that is known for eschewing alcohol. But if you are self-conscious about it, can you make sure the coozy is angled so that neither the logo nor text is fully visible?

    12. Miel*

      I think you’re overthinking it, but you could easily eliminate the problem with a new, neutral coozie or by drinking out of an insulated water bottle.

      Enjoy!

    13. Bagpuss*

      I think it probably depends a bit on who your meetings are with and how good your camera is. I think you are *probably* overthinking it and that anyone who can recognise a brewery logo from a partiall, covered by fingers cozy is probably not going to be overly worried about you havbing brewery swag.

      For instance, I personally might notice, because I notice patterns and familiar shapes, but wouldn’t assume that you were drinking beer, (unless your behaviour otherwise suggested that you were)

      I am however aware that of the people who would notice, there will be a subset who will care / make assumptions. So I guess it’s a case of whether any of your managers fall into those groups and whether they would see it as a major issue of a client / third party noticed and complained, and whether they would take your word for it that it was entirely innocent if someone complained to them.

      Personally, I’d buy a different one or turn it inside out if it’s going to be visible, just so I didn’t need to worry about it.

    14. RagingADHD*

      If anyone cared they would have said something already. Everyone is familiar with the existence of coozies, that they are branded swag people pick up for free in all kinds of places, and that they are not the label of the drink inside.

    15. Purple Cat*

      I don’t think you should be *worried* and I think the actual likelihood of blowback over it is low, but the reality is you ARE thinking about it. So, give up the real estate in your head and go out and get yourself a cheap cute fun coozy and banish this thought.

  20. CakeDonut*

    Question for anyone who can offer advice: I am about 10 months into a job, and I’ve already been promoted once (about 4 months ago). A different office within my company has offered me a job — a slight salary increase (10%) and a VERY different title but still fairly low on the overall hierarchy. This new job aligns more closely to my graduate degree but is on a haywire team–lots of turnover, new-to-managing manger, severely understaffed (1 person there now when a fully-staffed team is 5), and generally responsive to the needs of the company president’s whims alongside outside requests from clients. There’s no question that work-life balance would be terrible; this has been made clear to me by that office’s VP.
    My current position is 75% fluff work (aka I don’t need a graduate degree to do it) and about 25% work that is really fulfilling and meaningful to me and aligns with my degree. I feel like I’ve made a name for myself over the past few months–hence the job offer out of the blue–and have no reason to think this will change in the future. My hope is that I will get more work along the lines of that 25% as time goes on, and I’ll be able to shift the 75% to others, but there’s no guarantee.
    Here’s where I’m looking for advice (and maybe reassurance): Is it reasonable to turn down a salary increase and a title (that is very nice and –could– be hard to get as easily in the future) in order to stay on a team with an excellent manager, keep doing this work, and tie up some loose ends before considering another role, even if the majority of my work right now isn’t quite as compelling or challenging as I’d like?

    1. Binky*

      Don’t jump into a terrible work situation for anything other than life changing rewards. From your description, I’d stay where you are.

      1. Honor Harrington*

        +1000

        The older I get, the more I realize a high quality manager is critical to my overall quality of life. I only take a bad job for a limited period with a clear plan to make it a stepping stone to something else. Otherwise I get so burned out in dealing with the awful that I get stuck.

    2. a tester, not a developer*

      It’s totally reasonable to turn it down! It’s much easier to change your fluff to interesting ratio on a well run team that you like than it is to try and keep your sanity on a team that sounds like a bit of a dumpster fire.

    3. ecnaseener*

      Yes, absolutely. If you need a reason to give the HM of would-be-new-job, it’s completely understandable to say you want to stay put awhile longer and really learn the ins and outs of your current work.

    4. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Does anyone have any good books or articles on feeling less worried about your work performance? I always feel bad because I am not good at working ( I lack energy, the ability to guess what to do when not told, even not eating for a few hours can ruin my whole day(

      Also if you do informal mentoring at work how would put that on a resume?

    5. anonymous73*

      You’ve named several CONs for the potential new job that would steer me far away from the opportunity. An increased salary doesn’t make up for the position being an active dumpster fire. I would stay put and see where it leads you. I’ve stayed way too long in roles before because it was comfortable (and regretted it), but I’m talking years, not months. I’d give it at least 6 more months, and if nothing has changed and you don’t see any possibility of it changing, start casually looking for a new job and see what else is out there.

      1. CakeDonut*

        Oh, six months– what a good idea. That takes away the “stay put and do stupid crap forever OR move into a hectic environment” dichotomy that’s happening in my mind (that I know isn’t real/logical!). This is helpful. Thank you!

    6. The New Wanderer*

      Think about it this way, if you calculate your equivalent hourly pay with the new salary against the longer hours you’ll be working, is it really a raise at all?

      I’ve watched people leave for the new job under similar conditions (trading a salary increase and theoretically more enjoyable work against chaotic environment and longer hours). Some thrive, others bail within a year.

      I think it would matter if the new group was actively working to fix their culture, but it sounds like they want to throw more bodies at the problem and they’re looking to find the best, most capable bodies. That doesn’t have to be you.

    7. Jora Malli*

      I think it’s great that you’re being mindful about what ramifications this potential new job may have for your personal life. A job is more than just your title and your paycheck, it’s where you spend the majority of your waking hours and a whole lot of your mental and emotional energy. It looks like this new job would require a lot more of that energy and leave you with less to put into your actual life, and it’s really smart of you to factor that into your decision. It’s totally reasonable to turn down a job because it won’t offer you the kind of life you want.

  21. ThatGirl*

    Bless my manager, who is doing her best to help us feel appreciated – she gave us some bonus freebie days off and made it clear that she does not care if we “make up” our summer hours as long as the work gets done.

    How do you prefer to have your manager appreciate you?

    1. ferrina*

      I love freebie days. Also interesting work and having a manager that proactively seeks out professional development and projects that I’d be interested in, then making sure I have the resources I need to participate.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Flexibility with work hours, time off, making sure to tell me when I’m doing well as opposed to just addressing problems, and more pay is always good.

    3. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Flexibility is amazing. I also would like verbal praise and free food, covid permitting

    4. AdequateArchaeologist*

      Money, time off, and praise. Pay me what I’m worth, make it possible for me to have some extra relaxation time, and tell me I’m doing well. The last one is especially important if the other two aren’t possible.

    6. the cat's ass*

      More $, time off, and free lunch occasionally. Alas, my company is doing none of that.

    7. Dragonfly7*

      I wod love some actual constructive feedback. My department isn’t allowed to do raises or extra time off, but I appreciate flexibility with my schedule. We have also held field trips to departments we don’t often interact with, or our same department at other organizations, to learn more about what they do and get ideas for ourselves. We have a very broad definition of what counts for professional development.

    8. L. Ron Jeremy*

      Comp time is the best! Last manager allowed me time off 1:1 for all hours I worked past 8 a day.

      Senior Engineer position.

  22. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

    Say your company makes teapots. An employee says, “My current job is to paint teapots, but I’m interested in becoming the designer of the patterns that get painted on the teapots.” The typical response from certain managers goes, “We already have people who design teapot patterns, and you don’t have the skills for that. Stick to painting other people’s designs.” (Forever, I guess?)

    Suppose also that you work in a fast-paced field where career growth is generally expected in the industry, and employees who aren’t moving up are prone to feeling like they’re stagnating and becoming flight risks (and at least one person has actually rage-quit over this).

    Is there an askamanager article or articles that talk about why managers should support high-performing employees who want to develop new skills and work toward promotions?

    I can make arguments of my own, and have, at length, but I’m looking for “Alison agrees!” evidence, aka an argument from authority. ;)

    Thanks!

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I found two places where Alison talks about why it’s bad for managers to block internal promotions:

      #2 here: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/11/manager-blocked-internal-move-salary-when-moving-to-part-time-and-more.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2011/04/manager-wont-let-me-take-internal-promotion.html

      I think the arguments against blocking internal promotions are the same arguments FOR supporting high-level employees developing their skills (even when that progress takes them away from their current team/role).

      1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

        Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for! All hail Hlao-roo!

    2. Warrior Princess*

      I don’t know about Alison specifically (I’m sure that she’s written on it somewhere) but your company has employees quitting over this problem and they still haven’t changed it. It might be better to assume they won’t change it and find someone else who will provide that challenge for you.

      1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

        Oh, I would totally have quit by now. Fortunately, this isn’t me, or the company culture as a whole, but other employees with specific other managers that I’m trying to help out. (Helping out with this and related issues has explicitly fallen into my job purview recently, so I’m putting together some documentation of good managerial practices.)

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I don’t think that finding an ATM article is going to give your argument much weight. If your org or industry doesn’t think that painter-to-designer is a natural promotion track (it doesn’t sound like it, but maybe your org is out of step with industry norms), you aren’t going to sway them with an article. You will probably need to change employers in order to move into a new career path.

      Is painter to designer the norm in your industry? Or is it more that a teapot painter could expect to get a promotion from junior painter to senior painter to painting lead/manager, to Director of painting, etc., but would not expect to become a designer (a completely different skill set)?

      1. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

        Oh, my spontaneous teapot analogy may not have been a perfect fit, lol. Senior painter to designer, i.e. going from implementing other people’s solutions to coming up with your own solutions, is a very standard career path in my industry. The idea is that once you’ve been exposed to a bunch of designs, you understand the trade-offs of various designs, and it’s a natural transition to coming up with the best one for each project.

        Once you’ve been a senior painter for a while, you’re traditionally offered one of three career paths:

        a) Stay a senior painter forever; and try to get your challenges by working on different kinds of projects and keeping current in the field,
        b) Acquire the remaining skills to become a teapot designer, who decides what designs get used for what projects,
        c) Become a manager of teapot painters and work your way up the corporate management ladder.

        This is the standard not only in our industry, but even in our company. I was able to point to a specific employee who made the leap from senior painter to designer (because they had a different manager). The catch is that in order for career path (b) or (c) to work, your manager has to first allow you to work on a bunch of different projects with a bunch of different designs, so that you become a senior painter with a lot of experience. Then the manager has to allow you to develop your design skills or people skills according to whether you want (b) or (c).

        The problem is at my company, we have some very inexperienced managers who start parroting “That’s not your job” at their reports. Which in turn means various frustrated reports have been prevented from getting the exposure to a bunch of different designs they need to become senior (it’s standard in our industry to get much broader experience), from getting the skills they need to transition from “implementing designs” to “choosing/creating designs”, and/or from getting the skills they need to transition to painting lead/manager.

        In fact, I would argue that painting lead/manager or Director of painting is just as much a completely different skill set from painter as designer is! (Even more obviously different in my industry, which is very much not teapots.) It’s just that our corporate society tends not to see it that way, so managers are just handed teams to manage, without ever being told that, say, supporting promotions and not just maximizing daily work output is your job. I’ve seen Alison say much the same thing.

        Fortunately, as I said to Warrior Princess, my own boss believes in promotions and letting his reports acquire relevant new skills, which is why I’ve recently been promoted into a role where it’s my job to produce documentation and training for some of these inexperienced managers. But since I don’t outrank them, I can only offer suggestions, which is why it’s nice to be able to point to a recognized expert in the field agreeing with what I’m putting in my documentation.

  23. A Poster Has No Name*

    Small question, re: meeting schedule etiquette.

    If you schedule a meeting on Topic X, and you need to schedule a follow up meeting to keep discussing Topic X, do you reuse the original meeting notice (in Outlook or wherever) and just update the date & time or do you create a new meeting instance?

    1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      Personal preference for project meetings and updates but I create an entirely new meeting request – that way the original one isn’t amended in anyone’s calendar.

      However, I’ll combine it with a follow up email that is essentially the minutes of the original meeting and the points that should be raised at the follow up. Often I’ll include the original meeting’s agenda so people can see if we overlooked anything.

    2. CTT*

      By re-use the meeting, do you mean you open up the original meeting and then re-schedule it? This may just be me, but that would drive me bonkers, because that would mean the original meeting is no longer on my calendar and if I need to refer back to when it was, it’ll be gone.

      1. A Poster Has No Name*

        Yes, that’s exactly what I mean and why I’m asking. I always create a new meeting, but someone in my group consistently reuses them and it does drive me batty (because the original meeting is gone and the notifications are now off, and I need those or I will never be at a meeting on time). Not sure if I’m the outlier, though, which is why I’m asking!

    3. Raboot*

      New instance. If it makes sense to create a series do that going forward, but moving past concluded meetings to the future is odd imo.

    4. Sunflower*

      I always create a new meeting and basically use the same details except add Follow-Up at the beginning of the subject

    5. darlingpants*

      Please do a new meeting! I try to use Outlook meetings as a record of what I actually did in the previous weeks/months and disappearing meetings would make that super confusing. Plus I find that meeting updates randomly go to my trash folder vs my inbox so updated agendas sometimes get lost.

    7. Charlotte Lucas*

      I create a new meeting. Our calendars need to be accurate for reporting reasons. But I also sometimes go back to reference when a discussion happened, so I also have a preference here.

      And if the meeting was forwarded or originally declined by anyone, they might not get notified of the update.

    8. Hiring Mgr*

      I would personally create a new meeting, but others I work with don’t and it doesn’t really matter

      1. Observer*

        For most people it actually does matter, because it’s a way to keep track of past events. Not in a nefarious or gotcha type way. But because many people simply have too many things going on to remember when various things happened and most of us are unlikely to remember specific dates without something like that. Leaving events in their place provides a very simple way to get that information.

    9. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Depends…if the subject is expected to be ongoing (beyond 1 follow up) and future meetings will be at the same time/place etc., I might amend the first meeting to become a reoccurring meeting (that won’t erase the original meeting). But if it’s just one follow up and/or the details change, then it’s a completely new meeting.

    10. Purple Cat*

      I copy the existing meeting into a new one and schedule a new meeting. I hate it when the old meeting *that actually occured* gets wiped off the calendar. sometimes I need to go back and review when something happened. Or more importantly, follow-up with somebody on *why* a meeting didn’t happen.

  24. Cj*

    I’m wondering how long I should wait to contact a potential employer regarding a job offer that they said was coming.

    They do seem to be moving really quickly. I applied on April 29th, had a phone screen the following week, a zoom interview with two managers on May 10th, and with two partners on May 13th. On Wednesday the recruiter called me and said that they would like to offer me the job, and she would call me that afternoon or yesterday with details after she talked to the two partners, and then send a written offer once we’ve come to an agreement. Yesterday morning she emailed me to health insurance information I requested, and said she would call me later that day with the offer details. I did not hear from her.

    I know these things always take longer than expected, and I know it’s way too soon to contact her now. I’m thinking of waiting until next Wednesday afternoon, and if I haven’t heard from her email and ask if I should still be expecting an offer. Does that reasonable, or is that still too soon, or shouldn’t I contact her at all and just wait for them to contact me? As people have said here before, if they want to hire me their not going to forget.

    I am very good at putting jobs out of my mind and be pleasantly surprised if they contact me with an offer. This case is a little different because they did say one was coming, and if they change their mind for some reason I would like to know.

    1. Binky*

      Since you’re dealing with a recruiter I’d reach out on Monday asking asking for an ETA. You don’t have to be aggressive, but you don’t have to be quite as careful with a recruiter as with a hiring manager. Good luck!

    2. Cj*

      I guess I could have skipped this post. They just called me with the offer. I know a guy should always negotiate, but they offered me the top of the range that I had requested, so I can’t really argue with that.

      I did think about trying to negotiate for additional vacation days, but they already offer 22 days which is pretty good for the US. I also get Fridays off from June through September. Plus you get four paid days to do volunteer work. So I can go walk the dogs in play with the cats at the Humane Society in get paid for it.

      2. Jora Malli*

        I think “always negotiate” is an unhelpful mindset. Ideally, I’d like all employers to do what this one just did for you and make their initial offer reasonable and fair enough that people don’t feel the need to negotiate.

        Congratulations on your new job!

        1. Cj*

          I think the always negotiate mindset is how you can end up with serious salary discrepancies, often with women on the short end of the stick because men seem to have less hesitation about negotiating. I wish too that employers would just offer a fair salary from the start.

          1. Justin*

            I “negotiated” an extra 2gs out of my new job. Mostly to prove to myself I wasn’t scared to ask. :)

  25. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    Polite ways to stop invasive questions at work?

    To context: I logged on to email remotely (yeah, I know) while I recover from surgery on a malfunctioning uterus. I’ve been pretty open about being off for probably a couple of weeks minimum, what the surgery is, and why I’m having it. I logged on because frankly I’m getting bored at home and just wanted to cast an eye over things (kept my status as ‘offline’ on Teams though).

    There’s been a series of emails from my boss – the director of IT – to me asking if I am sure I know that this means I can’t have kids afterwards (yes! And I never wanted them anyway), then progressing to ‘what does your husband think?’ and finally the one that got me writing here: links to adoption and surrogacy services. She KNOWS how long I’ll be off for and knows I do not have or want children.

    But in general she’s rather pleasant and good at her job (has gone to bat for me on several occasions) and I don’t want to torpedo our working relationship by telling her to eff off.

    So: a ‘thank you for your concern but never raise that kind of bs again to me under any circumstances’ but, you know, without my habitual swearing?

    1. Raboot*

      Those emails are out of line, and it’s none of her business. That said, can you ignore them? If it escalates to her raising the same topics in person then you’ll need deflection strategies but emails while you’re on leave? Delete and put out of your mind for your own sake. I hope your recovery goes well!

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        You’re right. You’re absolutely right. I can and will just delete them and I’m kinda embarrassed I didn’t think of that.

        I’m not so worried about in person because I can just walk out the room when things get offensive and I absolutely will and have done just that.

        Thank you :) *hits delete*

    2. Cj*

      You asked for a polite way to respond, and I don’t have one for you because I wouldn’t be able to be polite about it. I don’t have and never wanted kids either, and these comments would drive me insane. If you did want kids and no are unable to have them, I think the comments would be even more upsetting.

      I always read your posts and really enjoy them, and if I remember correctly it seems like you have quite a long work history, and are therefore probably old enough that if you wanted kids you would have had them by now. That absolutely doesn’t matter as far as what your boss is saying, it just happened to cross my mind.

        1. doesn't comment often*

          Surely they understand that most births have occurred by someone’s late 40s???

        2. Disco Janet*

          You’re in your late 40s, with like a 3-4% chance of pregnancy even if it was something you wanted, and your boss is repeatedly emailing you about whether or not you’re able to have children?

          That’s…strange.

      2. Bagpuss*

        Yes, that was my thought – those comments could be incredibly upsetting if you were someone who wanted kids and were coming to terms with the fact that that would no longer be possible (except via adiption or surrogacy), and pretty patronising either way – I mean what was she expecting you to say “Oh my god, no, no one ever mentioned I wouldn’t be ble to have kids, I can’t belive no one told me. !” or “Oh, I fon’t know what my husband thinks, I didn’t think major surgery with a two week recovery time was something he needed to know about. He jusst thinksI’m having a lot of Duvet days right now”

        If you feel up to uit it might be worth you mentioning it either to her or to HR once you are back in work, but you don’t have toif you don’t want to.

    3. the cat's ass*

      Congrats on finally yeeting your ute! Sorry your boss is intrusive and clueless; some folx just don’t get that you are OKAY with no kids. I seem to remember this being a thing from your previous letters. maybe, “thanks for your concern and support, no need to send me kid-related links, especially at this time” because you want to maintain the relationship. Wishing you a quick recovery!

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Yep, it’s been from a few people I have (okay had) friended on Facebook who are coworkers of mine as well. I don’t add anyone on FB who’s my staff or my managers though.

      2. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        Also, thank you! While I’m still in a fair amount of pain and discomfort it is absolutely worth it to know that I am never going to have the monthly agony again for the rest of my life :)

        1. the cat's ass*

          Had similar issues but went through an early menopause (at 38), and it’s been awesome ever since! It’s been SO nice not to suffer tho everyone weeping over my lost fertility was a drag. I so get it. You’re going to feel so much better!

        2. The Prettiest Curse*

          I’m glad you finally had your surgery, and best wishes for a speedy recovery!
          I agree that deleting those emails is the best course of action, then you can just pretend you never saw them because they got buried in your inbox while you were off.

        1. the cat's ass*

          Courtesy of my former beloved 25 yo housemate who yeeted hers last year and is SO much happier and healthier. Appreciate the youngs keeping the olds UTD!

      4. Observer*

        some folx just don’t get that you are OKAY with no kids.

        Honestly, I’m not even sure that’s relevant. As others have noted, these comments would be at least as upsetting, in a different way, if someone DID want kinds. As for “what does your husband think”, that’s just. . . What do you even say to such an outlandish question?

    4. Rosie*

      Here’s my stab at it. I’m not sure it’s fabulous, but: “Thank you for your concern; I really do appreciate your good intentions, but because of this recent surgery I’ve already had a lifetime’s worth of discussion regarding my uterus and reproductive options. My brain is done, so let’s stick to other topics of conversation :) ”

      Yes, with the emoji. Softening my emails as a woman to seem more friendly and all that.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        That IS fabulous!

        While I’m going with the option Raboot suggested upthread of just deleting the emails for now I’m going to keep your wording in the drafts folder in case of further emails when I get back.

        (I love this community! Seriously I’ve got so many great responses over the years)

    5. a tester, not a developer*

      I’d go with a slightly disingenuous “I’m sure you can imagine what a difficult and sensitive topic this is for me. I know your intentions are good, but I really need to focus on my recovery instead of thinking about so many different possibilities. I’m sure you understand.”

      Doesn’t matter that the ‘possibilities’ are all terrible ones that you would never want… let her read whatever she wants to into your message.

      1. President Porpoise*

        This is also what I would do. But, uh, file this away in case you need to discuss with HR at some later point. Don’t delete.

    6. Popinki(she/her)*

      Since it’s your boss, dumping her into a tank full of man-eating pirhana is probably out of the question because you’d probably get stuck with a worse boss as her replacement.

      About the best I can think of is “I appreciate your concern. My husband and I understand the ramifications and are fine with them” (which you shouldn’t have to include because it’s your body and your health on the line, not your husband’s, but we’re trying to be nice to Ms. Intrusive here) followed by “I’d rather just put that all behind me and get back to my routine” when she inevitably starts nagging you when you go back to work.

      I would just ignore the adoption/surrogacy bit because that’s so far beyond the bounds of appropriateness it might as well not even exist. Good lord.

    7. whistle*

      “I would prefer to not receive further information or questions on this topic. Thank you for understanding.”

      Ew, those emails are SO inappropriate.

      1. ferrina*

        or “I’m recovering well and expect to be back on [DATE] as planned. I’m not interested in discussing reproduction. Thank you for understanding.”

        And +1 on “Ew”
        So, so wildly inappropriate.

        1. Mockingjay*

          Also in favor of Delete. (It’s truly such a simple, elegant solution to so many things.)

          But if you must respond to Her Intrusiveness, don’t JADE. “I’m recovering well and expect to be back on [DATE] as planned. See you then.”

          Best wishes for a swift recovery!

    8. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Jesus Christ. I’m sorry that is terrible.

      I’d say “We are well aware of the long term impacts and this is the best choice for my health. This is not something I will be discussing this anymore, as I consider this matter closed” Or something.

      But I’d rather write a expletive laden rant how my health and reproductive choices are not ever welcome nor needed.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        But I’d rather write a expletive laden rant how my health and reproductive choices are not ever welcome nor needed.

        Ahh so you’ve seen my drafts folder ;) I did actually write what I actually felt, with Malcolm Tucker level swearing, on my personal computer here at home but made darn sure I did not put any address in the ‘to:’ field. Cathartic but…errr…yeah, career limiting if that got out.

    9. Anonymous Koala*

      This is so ridiculous that I would actually be inclined to keep that email and start a file on my boss because with one incident so egregious, there have got to be more out there/ coming. Then if/when things got worse, I’d file a formal HR complaint. But then I’m combative. Deleting or ignoring the email is a perfectly reasonable option.

      1. Sylvan*

        Like don’t talk to her about this further, don’t try to have another conversation about it with her, she’s clearly not going to be normal about it. Don’t tell her that you’ll bring it up with HR if she doesn’t stop. Just go to HR.

      2. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

        I’ve otherwise got a great working relationship with her – Ijust think she’s got this view of the world where kids is the most important thing in her life and therefore cannot see that it’s not true for everyone. She has, IIRC, 5 children.

        This is the same boss who fought for equal pay in the department, got me everything I needed for disability access, has been brilliant in getting us the budget. I really don’t want to sour her.

        1. Observer*

          This is a perfect example of people being complicated and imperfect. But, it sounds like overall, more pluses than minuses, if she stops poking her nose where it doesn’t belong.

        2. All Monkeys are French*

          I guess it wouldn’t be cool to tell her that she’s had more than enough children for both of you, so you’re all good.

    11. RagingADHD*

      “I am sure you mean well, but these comments are very intrusive and inappropriate. I value our positive working relationship and would like to keep it that way. Please do not ever bring this subject up again.”

      I’m a big believer that “no” is a perfectly polite thing to say. You can be completely civil while also being clear and firm.

      Anyone who gets bent out of shape over this or considers it “torpedoing” the relationship is not, in fact, a pleasant person at all. It’s questionable as to whether she is a pleasant person by saying this in the first place. You have ample reason to go to HR already, if you were so inclined. This is so very not okay.

    12. A Feast of Fools*

      If it comes up in person (since you’re deleting the emails and acting like they never happened), I — personally — would do my best to talk to her kindly and like fellow manager / confidante. As in that’s the tone I would I aim for when I said something like, “You know, child-bearing and becoming a parent can be a really sensitive and private topic for a lot of women. I don’t have children and don’t want any, but I can see how pointing out that an employee won’t be able to birth her own children could be perceived as stepping over a line. I 100% know that you’re just genuinely concerned for me but it could be really painful for people to talk about this at work.”

      ^^That’s way too wordy and shouldn’t be considered a word-for-word script. I’d try to land it in the same area as when Alison suggests people tell their managers that “we” wouldn’t want run afoul of the law by not paying people or requiring women (but not men) to decorate for office parties and clean up afterward. Clearly the meaning is, “I want you to stop this behavior,” but it’s said in a way that lets the other person save face and hopefully make the change going forward.

      If you didn’t like your boss, I’d send the emails straight to HR. :-)

    13. Hillary*

      ugh, I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I deflect the kids stuff with “yeah, it didn’t work out” said in a slightly wistful tone. It implies I’m sad about it (I’m not) and shuts down the line of questioning because they don’t want to hurt my feelings.

      For this, maybe “yeah, we spent a lot of time talking through everything and this is best for our family.” You’re acknowledging that she cares (she does, and she’s expressing it horribly) while shutting down follow ups. Of course she doesn’t want to raise a difficult subject.

      This is less direct than others are suggesting, more direct is the next step if you need it.

      1. Cj*

        Keymaster said she is in her late forties. How many people are able to get pregnant at that age anyway? Which makes the bosses comments that much more bizarre.

        2. Your local password resetter*

          My mom actually did, but it’s irrellevant either way. Boss is way over the line and inserting themselves into extremely personal issues of their employee.

    14. Can't think of a funny name*

      I would be tempted to respond with something snarky like, “yep, I’m in my late 40s…by now I know where babies come from.”

    15. Your local password resetter*

      Ye gods, I’m sorry you have to deal with the busybodies while recovering from surgery.

      Adding my voice to the better writers above, I’d go with acknowledging she’s trying to help and then pointing out how inappropriate these comments are and how they could be really hurtful to people. Specifically people who want kids but can’t get them for medical reasons, since those seem easiest for your boss to identify with.
      And I’d just avoid the subject on why you don’t want kids yourself. Too much chance for derailing, and Boss seems too likely to get blinded by her good intentions and personal preferences.

    16. allathian*

      Oh dear, I’m so sorry. For now, maybe it’s better to just pretend you never saw the messages. If she keeps sending you things like links to adoption and surrogacy services (WTF?), ignore them while responding to the rest of the email, if there’s anything you need to respond to in it.

      Wishing you a speedy recovery and congrats on finally getting rid of your malfunctioning uterus.

      If she corners you at work, some snark might help her to get the message that this subject is out of bounds, something like “I know my limits, and no child deserves the terrible parenting they’d get from me” just might do the trick. Or it might not. If it doesn’t, and you’re willing to bring out the big guns, you could try saying something like “I know it’s probably difficult for you to understand this because you love kids so much and love being a parent, but getting this surgery was a dream come true for me. I don’t expect you to understand, but I do need you to stop sending me links to alternate ways of becoming a parent, because that’s not in our plans.”

  26. Ann O*

    My department, A, has a shortage of workspaces for staff. Earlier this year, my small team of five was moved to offices in another building in the suite of another department, B. It was a little awkward at first, as we realized that the B Dept didn’t really want to give up the extra offices. Last month, two of the five of us were moved to offices in yet another building, this time in Dept C, because Dept B needed their offices back. More awkwardness. The Director of Dept C clearly did not want to give up the offices and expected us to be falling all over ourselves with gratitude.

    Now my boss is saying the other three employees of my team need to move from B to C as well, but there’s no room. My boss thinks that we can take over some of the tables in an open area, and if not we can get creative with office sharing and hot desking. We have a meeting next week to discuss it with Director C. I find this whole thing incredible stressful and I’m sick of feeling like my team is unwanted everywhere we go. I had a nightmare – a literal nightmare – of how the conversation with Director C was going to go and at the end of the dream I resigned.

    I’m struggling to find a productive way to share my feelings with my boss, and if I should even bother. I don’t think she realizes how we feel, but I also don’t think she has much power to change it. I also don’t know how to make my team feel better about it. Any suggestions?

    1. Ann O*

      One other thing to (bitterly) mention – no one else in Dept A back in the other building is being asked to use tables as desks, office share, or hot desk.

      1. Jora Malli*

        I think this is an important thing to include when you talk with your boss. Your work group’s morale is being harmed by the constant moving and the pushback from company leadership who don’t want to give them adequate workspace, and on top of that they’re the only work group in the department that’s being asked to work in these kinds of substandard conditions. It’s not unreasonable for you to point out that your work group needs to be treated in a way that is equitable to the other work groups. If everyone else in the department has independent desks to work from, asking one specific group to share or cobble together some tables (!!!) is not equitable treatment.

    2. Binky*

      I think you can be very candid that all this moving about/splitting up the team/friction with other departments is super disruptive and tanking morale. Try to be dispassionate about it, but it very clearly sucks and you can express that to your boss. You can also be very up front with your team about the fact that you share their frustration. And you can ask them to come to you with any potential solutions they may see.

      Is there an option to ask for WFH or renting a coworking space until your office issues are resolved?

      1. Ann O*

        Thanks. I like the advice to be dispassionate about the disruption and morale.

        Right now we’re allowed to WFH one day a week. Only two of the team do. Our work is primarily in person but there’s some planning, data, and documentation work that can be completed off site. I think we’d have to increase the WFH days as much as possible, but we’d still have issues with having more staff than desks. It may end up looking something like: come in for customer meetings but find somewhere else to work in between (go back home? find a random open conference room?), with a different schedule everyday and making sure no more than 2 customer meetings are scheduled at the same time because that’s how many offices we have.

        1. Ann O*

          Ugh, I find myself getting more stressed out just thinking of the logistics of trying to schedule five of us sharing two offices without cutting back on service delivery, which would then jeopardize our jobs.

        2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          In addition to having more WFH days, is there any possibility of permanently commandeering a conference room into a large shared work space for your department, or would this be impossible for the customer-facing work you do? I can say that one thing my org has done (that’s more of a culture shift) is to establish and remind all departments across campus that there are no “department spaces” — it’s ALL university space and they will allocate it as needed. That attitude shift may help a bit on the other departments creating an unwelcoming environment for all of you and prevent you from being kicked around so much.

    3. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      If there’s no way to get the space at your current offices and/or your manager literally can’t do anything about it – would suggested alternatives like WFH or a rented office somewhere be acceptable? I had this when my team were moved to a new building and were then told they’d have to hotdesk across 4 different floors which I pointed out is absolutely NOT how you run an IT department. For one thing some specialised setups are needed (quite aside from my special disability needs we have a lot of computers) and communication between staff needs to be easily accessible.

      I was lucky in that my boss actually did have the authority to get the additional office provision for us though. Do3s your boss have any budgetary authorisation like that?

      1. Ann O*

        Thanks! It’s worth asking about renting an offsite office. I don’t think leadership would go for it because we’d have to direct customers to another location, but who knows. At least it would show that we’re trying to think of additional solutions.

        1. Seeking second childhood, CTA*

          If that is an option, what about a portable office? Trailer offices designed for construction sites can be really spiffy. And you can set it up right in the parking lot outside Department of your choice.

    4. ferrina*

      Agree with Binky- if your boss is at all reasonable, I’d be candid with her.

      Also seconding the remote/hybrid option. It seems like a good solution (since apparently there’s not enough space)

    5. Mrs. Pommeroy*

      Since in your replies you mentioned that your team has customers come in, I think you have a very good pressure point when talking to your boss for making sure your team has an appropriate working space – “what will customers think of cobbled together tables?!?” or the likes.
      I am, admittedly, appalled by your company’s unwillingness to find appropriate working space for your team (*especially* because you are client facing) and can completely understand your team’s morale taking a deep dive. And the directors of the other departments are being uncooperative idiots, too, since your department is probably just as important to the running and well-being of the company as theirs are but they behave as if you are stepchildren in a fairytale. I am annoyed about all this on your behalf!

  27. SloanGhost*

    How big of a red flag is revocation of BBB accreditation? Is it a major issue, or something that can happen in the normal course of business sometimes?

    As far as I can tell the reason is that of 12 complaints in the past 3 years, only 6 have been marked as resolved. The revocation occurred in January of this year.

    It’s a law firm that has been in business for 10 years, employee and client reviews are decent (most review venues are at about 4 stars but the yelp reviews are atrocious), according to glassdoor there are less than 50 employees.

    I’m interviewing for an entry level marketing job that I am wildly underqualified for but I’m a strong writer and their copy is horrible (not computer-generated or outsourced-and-run-through-google-translate level horrible but still very weak), so I can bring value even without the analytic and research knowledge I’m missing.

    Is it worth a shot to get a foot in the door and actually get the word “marketing” on my resume/build my portfolio, given I don’t usually get a second look when I apply for marketing work, or should I run screaming? How bad for my resume is working for a slightly-shady law firm, if I’m not involved in any of the lawyering/paralegaling/billing/customer servicing aspects?

    (Obviously the above is also pending what I learn from the interview itself but if I should just cut bait NOW it would be helpful to know)

    1. Maggie*

      The BBB is essentially meaningless so I wouldn’t take it very seriously. We got BBB complaints constantly at my old job because of things like shipping took a day longer than quoted or “I just don’t really like the product and the website should have pictured it better”. The BBB is not a governmental or even recognized institution beyond anything other than itself. It’s as meaningful as getting a badge on your website that says “my uncle Jim loves us!!”. The BBB just strong arms businesses into buying special levels or business or paying to get accredited by threatening them. They probably got sick of spending hours dealing with ridiculous people making BBB complaints because they didn’t feel like paying for their product or service. If attorneys were getting disbarred left or something that would be a red flag.

    2. whistle*

      You have to pay a monthly fee for BBB accreditation, so maybe they just stopped paying?

    3. Elle Woods*

      I don’t BBB accreditation seriously. Businesses pay to be part of the BBB; if they stop paying, the lose their accreditation and the ratings are essentially meaningless. I could start a new company today, apply to be part of the BBB, pay my BBB bill, and get an A+ rating almost immediately. The other reason businesses may lose their accreditation is if they are unable to resolve a complaint to the BBB’s satisfaction.

      I’d put far more emphasis on how things go in the interview and if any red flags appear during that or the hiring process than what the BBB or Yelp reviewers say.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I wouldn’t take lack of a BBB accreditation as an indication that a law firm is shady or slightly shady.

      Look up the lawyer(s) on your state registration website and see if they have any disciplinary history. That will tell you more about them than any status with BBB or their Yelp reviews. And regarding Yelp reviews (or any other online review), note that a lot of lawyers won’t respond to them because doing so can engage confidentiality issues, and also because lawyers have better things to do with their time.

      1. SloanGhost*

        This is great advice that I wouldn’t have come to on my own (zero knowledge of the legal industry), thank you so much!

    5. FisherCat*

      I have no idea about the BBB thing but if you’ve not previously worked in law I’d be very, very wary. The field is full of big egos, people who assume mastery of one domain is expertise in all, and every kind of workplace dysfunction you can imagine.

      Not that all law firms are bad! But take red flags very seriously, including the apparently mixed online presence. Also, look up the attorneys’ state bar disciplinary records. It will give you a sense of if the online reviewers are disgruntled or if there’s a documented pattern of unprofessional behavior coming out of that org.

    6. Sir Ulrich Von Liechtenstein*

      The BBB is meaningless, and in the era of Yelp increasingly obsolete. Don’t waste a second thinking about it.

    7. Purple Cat*

      As others have said, BBB is meaningless. It’s a marketing gimmick (I was going to say “tool” but I think that overstates its impact).
      But to give you a pep talk, by definition you really can’t be “wildly underqualified” for an “entry-level marketing job”. Sure if your degree is in engineering, you might not have learned some basic marketing concepts, but most things are learned on the job.

      1. SloanGhost*

        Well, my background is in wild animal husbandry, so it IS kind of a sharp pivot but I have a writing degree and an autistic splinter skill in verbal (in the sense of language-based) communication. I was more thinking that the listing asked for things like SEO and social media management and I have nothing but common sense to guide me there.

        That said, I had the interview and it turned out that they are specifically looking for someone really copy focused, so I think I have a solid chance.

        1. Fikly*

          Common sense is highly uncommon and by definition makes you highly qualified.

          Coming from another autistic job searcher.

  28. darlingpants*

    I’m hiring for the first time and I feel like I messed up the process, but I’m not really sure what I should have done instead:

    We’re in biotech so the market is extremely tight and pro-candidate. We posted the job in February. We got almost no candidates for a month, and those that were very junior. In late March/early April we started getting more candidates and it felt like each one was more experienced and a better fit than the next, so I kept having a tech screen, thinking “you’re the best candidate so far” and then the next week having another tech screen with an even better candidate. I also reached out to someone I’d worked with before and asked her to apply. She was by far the most experienced person in the pool. I moved her to our second step (interviews with the team) and everyone liked her. Here’s where I feel like I screwed up: everyone had positive things to say about her, I’d worked with her before so she was a known quantity, and she was the most experienced candidate, so HR said we should send her an offer immediately, and I didn’t move anyone else through the second step. HR kind of lowballed her (in the name of internal equity which I have complicated feelings about but I pushed as hard as I felt I could for a higher salary), and she’s been sitting on the offer for two weeks now while she waits to hear back from other interviews for higher level positions, and HR didn’t want to give her an ultimatum because we don’t have a second choice candidate. Obviously everyone I interviewed in March and April has gotten another job by now.

    I’m starting to look at candidates again, but I feel like this was super inefficient (and it’s taken 4 months so far and is going to take 5-6 before we actually get someone on site which is a pain for me because I really need help). Is there something I should have done better or is this just how hiring goes some times?
    * Obviously we (as a company) could have offered a higher level/salary to my old colleague and gotten her to sign (although it also seems like she wants to work at a smaller company)
    * Should I have kept moving people to team interviews even though we had a really good candidate? I didn’t want to waste the team’s time when we were already extending an offer
    * Any other tips for rolling applications when people who looked good a few weeks ago are now much weaker compared to candidates that just applied?

    1. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      Used to work in biotech (virology side) and yeah, the requirements are tight.

      I am in the UK so this may not be applicable in other countries but when I’m hiring (I work in senior level IT nowadays – third line) I’ll keep looking and scheduling interviews until I get an acceptance of an offer. I’ve had several times where I’ve made an offer and then heard nothing for a month and then a ‘sorry, found someplace better for more money’ so I can’t stop the whole recruitment process after making an offer.

      With highly skilled jobs like the ones we’re hiring for when you have a limited pool it *is* a lot trickier to ensure things don’t drag on so long that your second or third choices don’t get bored and move on. I’d suggest seeing if there’s any way you can a) shave time off the process, b) definitely try to get some more money and c) if you have a specific set of criteria that applicants absolutely must have (experience in equipment X, trained at biocontainment, etc) then that plus the salary should be spelt up front.

      In my experience in the UK at least if you don’t put the pay/benefits/hard qualifications in the advert then you don’t get as many of the skilled people applying.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      At this point I would just keep moving on with your hiring process until you find a second choice candidate. At that point give your first choice a deadline by which to respond, explaining you have another candidate to whom you’d like to make an offer. And yeah, I would have kept up the interviews. Teams generally understand that they might have to conduct a few interviews with candidates even after an offer has been extended, especially when the market’s so pro-candidate.

    3. ecnaseener*

      Yes, I think you should’ve kept people moving if you thought they could be acceptable second choices. If talking with your former colleague made you realize all those other candidates were mediocre, and you specifically decided to hold out for someone of that caliber no matter how long it took, that would be one thing, but it sounds like you would rather have one of the earlier candidates now than someone fantastic down the road.

    4. Parenthesis Dude*

      I wouldn’t have moved people to team interviews once you made an offer to someone. However, that’s why you give someone only a week to decide. In this case, if you know she’s looking at other positions, you probably shouldn’t have stopped your process.

      The thing you need to consider is that you need to pay enough for the job. You don’t control how pay works. Your company has told you what they’re going to offer. Complaining about how they’re not paying enough to get your top choice won’t help you. You need to find candidates that will accept your offer, and that means settling for one that isn’t as good as your friend. Those people that looked good a few weeks ago are the ones that might accept your company’s offer.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I think you have some valuable information based on what happened: the company is not willing to pay to get the most qualified candidate(s). Based on what you know now about the max salary for the position, can you reframe what you are looking for in terms of candidate skills? So, the earlier candidates may be weaker compared to the later, more skilled applicants you saw, but you aren’t going to get those more skilled applicants if they can earn more at other companies. Rather than think of the earlier candidates as weak, recognize that they’re less experienced/skilled but more appropriate for the position/pay you have.

    6. Observer*

      * Should I have kept moving people to team interviews even though we had a really good candidate? I didn’t want to waste the team’s time when we were already extending an offer

      Because even without a lowball offer, this was always going to be a possibility. And your current situation is going to wind up wasting far more time than even bunch of extra screens would have taken.

    7. PollyQ*

      Obviously everyone I interviewed in March and April has gotten another job by now.

      I wouldn’t assume this is true, certainly not for every candidate. Other companies may not be moving very quickly, for a variety of reasons. I’d go ahead & try to bring in the 2nd & 3rd best candidates for interviews now to see if they might suit.

  29. Murfle*

    An amusing situation: After I left my previous employer about 8 months ago for a new gig, the floodgates opened for the rest of my team, and at least 4 other people (on a team of 20-25) have also left since then.

    I’ve joined a WhatsApp group chat composed mostly of these former colleagues. Tahani, the ONE person in the group chat who is still with OldCompany is actively looking for a way to get out, since she’s stressed out — and an upcoming corporate merger isn’t helping things.

    We’re already looking out for her and one of my former colleagues is referring Tahani for a spot on her new team. Of course, I’m jealous because I wanted Tahani to join MY company! It’s fascinating seeing the whole maxim of “It’s not what you know, but who you know” playing out in front of my eyes.

    The cherry on the cake is that my former BOSS, Janet, just left the company this week, and has joined the group chat as well. It’s going to be interesting hearing her perspective on things.

    Workplace gossip. Love it!

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Love your name choices! (And I agree it can be fun to hear gossip from a former workplace.)

    2. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

      I’m on a discord server with several former employees of a previous firm and a couple who are still there but looking to leave (was the firm with an incredibly toxic boss and HR department). There’s a real sense of justification when someone else goes ‘I’m out’ because it’s kind of like validation that my decision to walk out was the right one.

      (We founded the group just because we all get on really well and didn’t want to lose touch. It’s been over 8 years – started the group on Facebook, moved to Slack then discord)

    3. Shiba Dad*

      From 2015 to 2017, seven or eight of us left OldJob. Others have left since. Pre-pandemic we were having “alumni” meetings. We’d get together quarterly, have some food and a couple of drinks. Yes, there would be gossip about the OldJob.

      1. SnappinTerrapin*

        The company my Dad started his career with went bankrupt after he worked 28 years with them. (Family owned business, the grandchildren borrowed too much during a period of high inflation in order to buy out the second generation.)

        Thirty years later, alumni of that company were still having an annual “reunion” that involved traveling to various sites to spend a day or two reminiscing. I’m talking about dozens of people who had already worked together for half their careers, staying in regular contact with each other through the rest of their careers and into retirement. Some of them are still in communication with each other, although the reunions have gone by the wayside as they aged or died.

  30. Lady Dedlock*

    Happy Friday, all! I’m job hunting after 12 years at my current organization, so I’m a little out of touch with current norms, and I’d love to get your thoughts on a couple of things.

    First, I’m in the late stages of interviewing with a company for a mid-senior role. I’ve already had six 30-minute one-on-one interviews, and I just got word that they want me to have a 15-minute conversation with one of their executive team members next week. Is this a typical number of interviews these days, or should I be concerned that this is an overly bureaucratic company with byzantine decision-making processes? I’m assuming it’s a good sign that they want me to meet with an executive team member.

    Second, assuming I do get an offer, it will be coming through a recruiter. How do I go about negotiating in that context? The recruiter quoted me a salary range up front, but I have more and higher-level experience than the job description asks for, so I’m wondering if that gives me some room to ask for more.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I had a two hour interview with a company a few years ago (for an entry-level position). The total two hours were broken up into 4 thirty minute 1-on-1 interviews: one with the hiring manager, one with a senior team member, one with an entry level team member, and one with HR. I didn’t get that job, but the interview(s) felt reasonable, not overly bureaucratic.

      Some questions (you don’t have to answer here) that might clarify if the six 30-minute one-on-one interviews were normal or red flags:
      – were they back-to-back or all scheduled at different times/on different days?
      – was the schedule and decision making process clearly communicated to you up front (“after the phone screen, we’ll do interviews with various team members, and if you move on from there you’ll meet with an executive”) or has it been “oh, surprise, there’s one more step after this interview…and one more step after this one..”?

    2. Purple Cat*

      I don’t necessarily think 6 30-minute interviews is egregious. Especially if your schedule was easily accommodated during the process. COVID complicates things, would these have been a panel interview in the past, but this time was separate zooms? That factors in. Definitely a good sign that you’re meeting with executive. You negotiate with the recruiter the same way you would directly with the company. Unless they’re offering you some outrageous amount above their previously communicated maximum, then there’s always room to ask for more.

    3. BRR*

      I don’t think that amount of interviews is anything to worry about. I’ve also not personally found a super strong correlation between hiring procedure and company culture. At least when it comes to there being more bureaucracy.

      You negotiate just like you would with a hiring manager. If they gave you a hard number range, I wouldn’t ask for anything above the max.

  31. Mach 10*

    I’ve gone four rounds (with seven people) in an interview process. I was an internal referral, every single interview has been a home run, I did a great work sample for them — so, a lot of reason to think I’m a strong candidate here.

    I was told before the 4th round that there would be a final 5th round. After the 4th round (on a Wednesday), I heard nothing until the following Friday, when I got an email apologizing for the radio silence and “we’ll have a decision or next steps for you early next week.”

    “Early next week” was this Monday/Tuesday. Now we’re at Friday. Should I follow up or just hold steady? If I follow up, what should I say?

    Yes, I’ve sent thank-yous for the previous rounds; no, 4+ rounds of interviews isn’t really necessary for this role [mid-level Llama Stylist].

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Wait until Tuesday. Stuff comes up all the time, references take longer than expected or other candidate couldn’t interview immediately or George forgot to hit submit on his feedback about you.

  32. Butternut*

    How do you be patient with an intern when you are burned out? I did not ask for an intern, he was simply assigned to me. Intern generally is bright but also seems to be taking a while to learn things, and sometimes I get frustrated when he asks the same question multiple times or doesn’t connect concepts. I try really hard to not show my frustration, but working with him, honestly, can feel thankless.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can you create training documents for intern, then you can c/p relevant instructions instead of having to keep repeating them?

      Can you pawn intern off on a coworker for a day to reset your frustration levels? We used to do different departments etc (RD interns visit QC for a day). Or just take a sick day and reset?

      If they’re not connecting concepts and asking same question multiple time it’s worth revisiting how you’re explaining and checking their understanding.

      Final thought, are there any projects/tasks they are competent in? Or reading they need to do? Maybe setting a specific time for challenging tasks that create questions and a specific independent time might help you feel less overwhelmed?

      1. hamsterpants*

        Maybe it’s the burnout talking, but writing even more detailed instructions feels counter to the purpose of the internship for both of us. My industry has a lot of niche practices and being able to take your own notes so you can effectively learn from others is a really crucial skill.

        1. Dragonfly7*

          Would it be useful for the intern turn their notes into a draft training document to check their understanding?

    2. Miel*

      I think the rule of thumb for interns is that their work output is typically about equal to the output their mentor would have had with the amount of time spent training the intern. In other words, it’s a wash, at best.

      But! It’s probably a valuable talent pipeline for your company. And it’s definitely a valuable experience for the intern, too.

      It’s not shocking that this young person is taking a while to pick up on things. Looking back, I cringe at how clueless I was as an intern! I was still learning so much.

      Anyway, some ideas:
      – encourage them to set up informational interviews within the company to learn more about other functions
      – shadow another person/ another team for a day
      – work on the production line for a day
      – do some self guided research (hand them a couple journal articles or research reports to read)
      – give them a pretty easy project (organizing the extra supplies, labeling drawers)
      – have them get together with other interns. At my company, the interns publish a monthly newsletter, go on field trips, etc.
      – ask your colleagues if they have projects that the intern could work on
      – ask your intern if there are certain ways that they learn better! Maybe he’d catch on quicker if you take a different approach to teaching
      – recommend some online training courses (if your company has a training platform, or just see if there are relevant videos on LinkedIn Learning, Coursera, etc)
      – speaking of: some professional societies have a LOT of good content! If you’re at all science related, have them sign up for American Chemical Society webinars. They’re free and well done. At least one a week.
      – seek out management training for yourself
      – remember to put all these skills on your performance evaluation/ resume!

      Best of luck. And thanks for your patience with your intern – know that it means a lot to them to have this opportunity.

    3. ferrina*

      Can you share the training? Do you have coworkers that he can do a 2-week stint with? If you could do 2-weeks on, 2-weeks off, that would allow you to prep training documents (or just bulleted How-To lists to refer him to) and stockpile work that he can do largely independently.

  33. Panda (she/her)*

    Looking for advice on negotiating job offers! I am a decade into my career and have worked for the same employer since I graduated – and I have never negotiated a job offer! I now have one offer on the table and another hopefully coming in the next two weeks. When they asked for salary requirements, I told them a number which is about a 25% pay increase for me, and right in the middle of their posted salary range. If they give me what I asked for (and other things like vacation, benefits are good), then should I still negotiate? Or would that be weird, like I’m going back on what I said? And since my first choice job won’t have made a decision by the time I need to sign back my second choice offer, is it really horrible to accept the job and then back out a week later if I get my first choice?

    1. Purple Cat*

      Definitely not weird to still negotiate. If they offered you x, why not ask for X + $5K or whatever. The worst they can do is say “no”. They’re not going to rescind your offer.
      IMO it’s not great to accept if you think you’re going to reject a week later. For sure, you’d be burning a bridge with me, but also in today’s workplace you absolutely have to do what’s best for yourself. Have you reached out to the preferred company to let them know you have an offer in hand and see if they can accelerate their timing? Alison has a bunch of scripts for that.

      1. Panda (she/her)*

        Thanks! Yes, I have let them know I have another offer, and they have accelerated their process as much as they can. I am trying to drag out acceptance of my first offer to try to at least get past one of the interviews for the other, but I may be risking no offer (and staying in a toxic job) if I turn down the first and don’t get the second.

    2. Cj*

      If they offer you what you said you wanted, I think you need concrete reasons to ask for more, not just that you changed your mind. For example, if during the interviews you learned at the hours or longer, the job at a higher level indicated in the original description, etc., you can bring those up those things as a reason you are now asking for more.

      From your comments below, it sounds like you haven’t even had an interview at your first choice company yet. I won’t consider that to be an offer I’m expecting, and sounds like you probably shouldn’t pass up currently in hand.

      If you accepted this offer and then received an offer from a company that you already completed all your interviews with and they just didnt have the offer ready as soon, that’s not nearly as bad of a look as if you accept this offer and then start interviewing with the other company. You don’t want the company that made you an offer to keep interviewing other candidates and then decide they want them instead, right?

      Signed offer isn’t a legal contract, technically it could. Dog oh, I think it would certainly burn a bridge with that company. And depending on how small your industry is, it could get around, or you could run into the hiring manager at a different company you apply to later on that remembers that you backed out.

  34. GarlicMicrowaver*

    Do you ever feel like things would be much more efficient if everyone else on your team had the same sense of urgency as you!??! Zero patience for slowpokes and last-minute cancelers today who have no regard for my time. Argh.

    1. hamsterpants*

      I wish that my team were organized with clarity of purpose. When I cancel a meeting last minute it’s usually because something else more important has come up, sometimes dropped on my lap by a manager.

  35. Typing All The Time*

    Last month, I shared a hotel room with another conference attendee where via Facebook DMs she agreed to splitting the cost. The total would be around $430.

    Except for one dollar sent to my PayPal account as verification, I have not received any money from her as of yet.

    She had sent an email last Friday asking if I had received the payment. I told her no. I called and checked with PayPal and no record has been found. I have a tricky-spelled last name, and the PayPal customer service rep said that the record number can be checked to see if a payment had been sent.

    I have not gotten any reply to this suggestion. She seems to be seeing my DMs but not answering. I am getting scared that I might not see this money. I am debating about contacting the conference organizers, as they also run a related professional networking community, to see what they can do. I only have an email, Facebook page and phone number for this person. I also know the name of her business.

    I cannot just write off the amount as a loss. Please help.

    1. Sunflower*

      I would contact the conference organizers. It might be in their community guidelines that something like this will get them kicked out of the group.

      I would reach out to her again and say if you don’t receive payment in the next 3 days, you’ll have no choice but to report her to the group/conference organizers. I also would say you’ve been in touch with lawyers and will plan to bring suit to small claims court with her business cited in public record if she doesn’t comply (I have no idea of this is legit or what wording to use but threatening legal public action usually gets people nervous)

      Otherwise, I don’t think you have much recourse. I would say that next time, get the full amount as soon as you book the hotel or at least before the cancellation date.

    2. Mercie*

      Try to get on the phone with her to let her know she needs to pay what she promised you by X date or you will have to involve the conference organizers as she is putting you in a difficult financial situation and this needs to be resolved. Be prepared to leave a voicemail since she’s ignoring your FB messages. Then email her a summary of either your phone conversation or the VM you left. Also, screenshot those FB messages where she agrees on payment ASAP just in case.
      I’m not sure how much the conference can do if they’re not in charge of the rooms, but perhaps invoking them will make the person realize she’s jeopardizing her professional reputation with this behavior.

    3. WellRed*

      If she sent you a dollar I’m guessing she can send the rest and it’s not a PayPal issue. If it were there are a dozen other ways she could pay you, including Venmo, Zelle, money order or handing you cash before you gave her a room key. I’m not sure how the organization can hel but you have nothing to lose by asking. Ultimately, You fronted money to a stranger. People can really suck.

      1. Jora Malli*

        If nothing else, the postal service exists and she could mail you a check.

        I would check with the professional organization, and give some serious thought as to whether attempting to contact her through her employer would feel reasonable. I would normally never recommend that, but if this was a professional conference that she was attending in a professional capacity, that would make it a work issue.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      I’m so sorry this happened to you! If you’re ever splitting a room again, most hotels will split costs evenly on two cards – I’ve done this for conferences before. Sometimes they divide it up so the hold goes entirely on one card and the rest gets divided up, but you shouldn’t have to have one party entirely front costs for the whole thing. Best of luck.

      1. Typing All The Time*

        Thanks. We arrived at different times so I paid because I got there first.

    5. RagingADHD*

      How many times have you messaged her about this since verifying that you did not receive the payment? You should certainly follow up.

      If it has been more than 2 days and she has ignored your DMs, find her business email address / phone number and contact her there. This is a business matter. It’s not stalky to contact her there.

      If she doesn’t get back to you within 48 hours of contacting her business, escalate to the conference organizers.

      1. Typing All The Time*

        Thanks. I contacted her again today. I am going to draft an email to send and a script to contact her on Monday.

  36. WTF?*

    Does anyone have any experience with a new general manager coming in and basically pushing out the whole team?

    We had 7 full time employees. New GM (total arrogant jerk with no experience in our specialized field ) came in February. I was the first to leave, 15 year high performer pushed out. The other high performer has left, she’d been there 8 years. The owner tried to get us both to stay but I think the GM wanted at least me gone. Maybe not her as much, her job was more background and technical. I was basically the face of the company. Two other great employees are about to leave (13 & 3 years respectively), and he’s got the office manager on his hit list and is openly talking about her in our small town and industry. And the owner seems charmed by this guy. He’s been there since February! And it’s impacted them negatively!

    Is it normal to come into a job you’ve never done before as the boss, then push out all of the experience and institutional knowledge? I’m out and that’s great, but this all happened so fast and without any warning that my head is still spinning around and the WTF factor is HIGH.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It happens quite a bit for really small companies like yours.

      The owner got charmed by this guy, for whatever reason, and he can do no wrong. Hands-off owner, I assume, who owns the business as a side-line since he thinks it’s cool or fun, but doesn’t have the time to actually make it work?

      The new guy wants to demonstrate decisive action, so he starts by getting rid of a big chunk of the staff. Half the time, it ends up tanking the entire company.

      Now it’s possible that the owner has wanted to get rid of you for a long time, but never had the gumption to do it, and so hired this new GM to be the hatchet man.

      1. starsaphire*

        My money is on “And then the new GM suddenly finds he has a host of friends/acquaintances/in-laws at the ready to fill all these empty jobs,” but then I’m a bit of a cynic.

        1. ferrina*

          Yep. Or he has no clue what he’s doing (or wants to move into a position way beyond his expertise) and wants to get rid of anyone that could be a threat to his ambitions.

          1. WTF*

            WTF here. That’s definitely what happened with me. He didn’t like when I brought up laws we needed to abide by.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Yep. OldExjob’s parent company hired a VP to “bring OEJ and its sister company ABC into a new future.” Apparently, he had cronies he wanted to hire, so he cut my job and the marketing person’s job and fired a bunch of managers, including the best one the company had. (And BullyBoss, for which I wish I’d been a fly on the wall, haha.) Then he moved on.

      The company was sold again and is now closed. The new owners decided to move operations to Canada and shuttered it at the end of last year. I found out because the facilities manager and I are friends on Facebook and he posted, “Well I guess I’m retiring!”

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I’ve seen it happen plenty of times. The new hot shot wants to bring in his own people, so forces out those who have been there the longest and are most likely to object to his moves. As to whether his own people are any good – that’s a different question. In my personal experience, no. But particularly when dealing with an organization that is dis-functional to begin with, I’ve heard of times when it has worked.

    4. kiki*

      I wouldn’t say it’s normal, but it definitely happens. Sometimes the new boss genuinely thinks the existing team is ineffectual or toxic, sometimes they have friends or past colleagues they want to fill the department with, and other times the boss is a really insecure person who doesn’t want to deal with employees who know more than them.

    5. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens more than you think. In big companies, sometimes the new VP was specifically hired to “clean house” in order to revamp or downsize.
      In small companies the owner may become infatuated by someone who “talks a good game” and basically lets them do anything, which tends to be them driving away good people so as to hire their buddies. Sometimes the owner wakes up before the business goes under.

  37. Trivia Newton-John*

    Started a new BigLaw firm a little over a week ago. I was told the main attorney I work with doesn’t like dealing with admin stuff, he just wants to practice law. Fair.
    He engaged a new client before I started that has very specific billing requirements and said he doesn’t care how it happens, he just wants it set up. I presented him with the proposals the financial department came up with based on those requirements he gave me, letting him know if he wanted dates changed or something, we can do that. He said that is not right, none of it is right, it won’t work (but couldn’t tell me what would be right). He asked if the person who was filling in had sent me the engagement letter, and I said no, but I can look it up in the System (that things are all supposed to be saved in, especially working in law) and he very dismissively said “It won’t be in there.” He forwarded the letter. The financial department said they should have asked for a specific invoice upon opening this new client but that didn’t happen. I have no idea what is going on, or what to do. I don’t know what to look for, how to find it, or who to ask (definitely not him, definitely not the person who filled in prior to me coming in because she’s already hands off about the whole thing and is abrasive). It’s very frustrating and discouraging. He hasn’t given me access to his contacts (another thing he said he desperately needs help with) despite several emails and verbal reminders to him that he needs to contact IT to grant permission.
    The other attorney I’ve been working with has been very warm and cordial and helpful as has 99% of the staff. But did I make a mistake?

    1. Sunflower*

      Are you an EA or legal secretary? If so, a few things I would do
      1. Ask the other EAs/secretaries what they think you should do
      2. Do you have a contact at the client (maybe someone’s EA) who can provide insight on how their other professional service contracts are handled?
      3. Talk to your/the overall EA manager about how the person who was filling in hasn’t been helpful and you need assistance setting this up

      1. CTT*

        Seconding the third option – if your BigLaw firm is like mine, your office manager likely has a vested interest in making sure there are no impediments to billing that might mean money takes too long to get in.

        1. Bernice Clifton*

          I agree. The Office Manager also can talk to the attorney’s supervisor about how he shouldn’t be making payment plans without talking to anyone.

  38. Jo April*

    How much is reasonable to ask for in salary negotiations? I have an offer I really want to accept, but I need them to come up 15K (from 80 to 95 USD); I’m in higher ed admin, in a very in-demand specialty.

    1. GarlicMicrowaver*

      Go higher, I’d say. I just went from 86 to 120- but I asked for $100 and was astounded they highballed me!

      1. cactus lady*

        The same thing happened to me! Always ask for what you want, you never know when you might get more!

    2. Parenthesis Dude*

      $80 to $95k is a lot, and I doubt you’ll get it. But there’s no reason not to try if you’ll reject the offer anyway.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I agree with GarlicMicrowaver – go higher so they can come down to a number between their current offer and your suggestion. But be sure to have material to back up why you are worth that. They asked for three years of experience, you have five. They asked that you be able to do x and y – you can do x, y and z, plus a few other things besides. Think of it as part negotiation, part sales pitch. Good luck!

    4. fhqwhgads*

      It depends. If they gave you the range up front, or it’s publicly available, and you know it’s something like 70k-80k and they offered you 80, there’s probably nowhere to go. May still be worth asking but don’t expect it to work out. If the range is 75k-100k, 95 is well within bounds.

    5. unpleased*

      It’s higher ed, so it’s really hard to say. Is it a public institution? Are there peer institutions where someone like you works for a comparable salary to what you want? Do you work in what that school considers a strategically important area? Those factors might be as important as your actual qualifications in whether this is reasonable.

  39. Chaotic Workplace*

    I have a general workplace question: how much control do lower-level managers have over the hiring of their direct reports?

    I ask because a coworker of mine, Jane, who was recently promoted is angry that her input was put aside by higher ups to hire someone that she personally didn’t think would be a good fit. I agree with her that the new hire’s behavior is a poor match for our workplace, but I also see why she was overridden, as this person has experience with fundraising things that are hard to come by at our rates of pay. Jane seems to feel like she’s a puppet in this situation, whereas I always thought it was the director who’d have the final say and don’t think it’s a surprise at all that the director would choose to go with someone who might be able to bring money into our underfunded institution.

    1. Little beans*

      Hmm, in my organization, the direct supervisor always has final say. Higher ups might meet their final choice just to confirm but they wouldn’t override a decision made by the person who will be supervising them.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I think it depends on the workplace. When I worked in a call center, the supervisors (who managed non-exempt staff) would give their input on new staff, but the recruiter & manager has final say. This was for entry-level CSRs. As positions became more specialized, the supervisors had more say.

      Managers (who managed exempt staff) got final say.

  40. CatCat*

    You’re not a weirdo. Sometimes it is faster to get things sorted over the phone than in an email exchange. If I need to make a call, I make a call. If the call is to someone internal, I can see their calendar status and make sure they are not showing as “busy” or “in a meeting” before calling.

    The thing that I don’t like and maybe it’s just because I am not as used to it as phone calls are Teams calls. I never know if I am supposed to turn my camera on or not. And I have to scramble to get my headset on to answer it.

      1. OtterB*

        Heh. I don’t know, many of us can probably use the affirmation that we’re not a weirdo.

  41. A Simple Narwhal*

    Anyone ever successfully proposed a new title structure within their department?

    My department has a definite issue with career path, in that there really isn’t one. Each group has some variation that looks like Teapot Manager, Senior Teapot Manager, AVP, VP. And having only 4 job titles in each group isn’t really great for a company that people tend to stick around at for decades – you pretty much have nowhere to go and reach a hard wall relatively early on, since they don’t want too many AVPs or VPs (which we still have a lot of). It doesn’t help that having the same title as a coworker when you do very different things can get confusing – for example my coworker and I are both Senior Teapot Managers, but based on my experience, skills, and background, I now primarily deal with teapot analytics in my role, and similarly my coworker primarily works in teapot design and UX. But since our titles are the same, people have reached out to her about analytics and me about UX, and then get confused why neither of us can help, since by our titles we do the same thing. It’s also just frustrating to really grow and expand your role but have no way of acknowledging that progression.

    The department has acknowledged that this is an issue (people primarily leave for title bumps and raises), but has mostly left it at “well some roles don’t grow and you have to accept that” (true but not relevant to everyone) or “talk to your manager and figure something out with them (but also they don’t have full control so maybe don’t expect too much)”. So I figured it’s as good a time as any to propose something myself since waiting around for management isn’t going to do anything, and knowing my boss he’d at the very least be open to hearing me out.

    I’m going to take some time and flesh out a proposed new career path/tree for myself/my team (my husband has some experience with this and has offered to help), but has anyone ever either proposed new titles and gotten them, or gone through a title reorganization in their group? I’d love any advice anyone has to offer as I embark on this new project.

  42. Hedgehog*

    I have a confidentiality-related question. My role involves processing payroll, so I am aware of how much my colleagues make. Obviously, I keep this information to myself and generally wouldn’t think about sharing it. However, one of my coworkers just got promoted and her new salary is a solid 10-15k lower than the other folks in her same position (and they’re hiring for another person with the same title for 10k more right now). I’m wondering if it would be unethical for me to discreetly show her the hiring ad for the position (which lists the salary) and suggest that she try to renegotiate her salary? Or is this a situation where I should just assume it’s not my business and not say anything?

    1. Rosie*

      If the hiring ad is public, do you have an anonymous way you could send it to her? That’s not using inside information; anyone could have seen the ad.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Are there any demographics in play that would make for bad optics? Like she’s the only woman and her higher paid coworkers are men? Or is she the only minority? Not that that’s the only reason to say something, but it would be pretty easy to take that to HR and be like “hey not only is it a bad look but I’m concerned this could leave us open to a lawsuit”.

      Otherwise I agree with what Rosie said to send the public job listing to her. Maybe print it out, highlight the salary bit, and leave it on her desk?

    3. Miel*

      There is a chance that she’s already seen the job ad with salary attached.

      I’m not a fan of the anonymous route. Are you close with her? Do you know someone who’s close with her, who you’d trust to deliver the message of “hey check out that ad, you should ask for more money!”

      Or, from your end, could you talk to the HR manager and point out this equity issue?

      Good luck.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Send her the ad and don’t be coy about it. She can put 2 and 2 together about why. Nothing wrong with that, you’re doing her a solid.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes. You can just say “Oh hey, I didn’t realize they’re still hiring up for your new group!” or “Is this the same job you now have?” or better wording, but send it like you’re just curious about this interesting thing you saw.

    5. Parenthesis Dude*

      If she was newly promoted, and the other people have been in the same position for a few years, then it makes sense that they’d make more. After all, she’s new to this level of responsibility and they’re not.

      Even the new person may be in the middle of the band for the new position if they have experience working at this level, while she’s at the lower end.

      1. RagingADHD*

        If there is a logical business reason for the disparity, then all the more reason for her to have that information. Transparency hurts nobody if there is nothing shady going on.

  43. Intern Supervisor*

    Small question about the most gracious way to (potentially) reject a candidate. Would like to hear people’s gut feelings.

    I’m hiring graduate student interns for the summer and the fall. The fall intern is already hired, and they are also interviewing for the summer internship. If it seems clear that they are the best candidate for the summer job, I’m okay with hiring them for both. However, if it’s a near thing, I plan to favor any candidates who wouldn’t be working with us in fall, to spread out the learning opportunities.

    So the question: if you were getting rejected not so much on your own merits but because the employer wanted to spread around the opportunities, would you want to know that? Or would it make you more resentful? I.e. would you prefer a rejection that’s like, “You were great, but other candidates were also strong and we want to make sure as many students as possible get the opportunity to work with us.”? Or would you prefer a more traditional, “Sorry, we decided to go in a different direction for this gig. See you in the fall!”?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Does company have a policy about spreading out the learning options? Or is that just personal preference? I think admitting intern is better qualified but rejected for already getting fall internship opens up some area for push back by the intern. I wouldn’t do it.

      Also consider if intern ends up in a summer internship that then offers to extend them to a fall position, you might lose them.

    2. RagingADHD*

      With any kind of rejection, less information is best – unless there is something they could do to change or improve the situation. In this case there is not.

    3. not a doctor*

      Late, but I’m going to disagree with the comments above mine! If I were the intern, I’d be very confused about why I qualified for one semester but not the other, and I’d appreciate the clarification.

      1. Miette*

        I have to agree with this. Also, I feel there are benefits from having this person on staff for a longer time–less training and hassle for you, more continuous experience in the field for them. UNLESS of course, your intern program is a formalized program with a learning arc/projects the interns work on that’s typically predictable or whatever.

    4. S*

      I think you can say that your practice is to do internships for one semester. If it was a work/study job that would feel weird to me, but internships are always time bound and limited.

    5. Kw10*

      I think it would be very understandable to say something like “Sure to the high volume of interest, we limit each intern to one semester only.”

      2. linger*

        Except that they do seem open to the possibility of keeping this intern for two semesters.
        If it’s about “giving experience”, one important question is whether the intern will have any chance to gain different/increased experience in the second semester. Are the skills gained cumulative over time? Is there any chance for rotation through a wider range of roles over more time? If not, then there is a stronger case for spreading the experience over different individuals.

  44. Kesnit*

    My job requires specific schooling and then some additional certifications in 3 separate areas. The certifications must be renewed every 2 years by taking continuing education classes in each area (a total of 6 hours per area).

    There are 2 ways to document recertification training. The first is to go online to the overseeing agency’s Web site where they have a page specifically for recertification. To document, you log in with your account, select the class you took from the pulldown menu, fill in the date you took the class, and click “Submit.” The other way is to fill out a fillable PDF listing the classes, date, and which certification the class fulfills. At the end of the 2 years, you submit the form to the agency. (Most classes only cover a few hours, so multiple classes are usually needed to fulfill all 18 hours.)

    Our last recertification was 2021. I had been using the online system. When it came time to recertify in October 2021, my boss came to me and asked me for my recertification form. I told him I had submitted everything online and had received an email a few days prior saying I was good through 2023. My boss asked for a copy of that email (which I sent him) and told me that “we all do the paper form.” (The tone and context is that I was wrong to have done it online and not the paper form.)

    It’s now 2022 and certification is ongoing for 2022-2023. No one has given me a reason why everyone in my office uses the paper form, but to keep everyone happy, I am submitting my training online (because it is so easy!) and filling out the form. I recently got emails that all my certifications are done for this cycle. Paper forms will not be submitted until October 2023.

    Can anyone think of a reason why submitting everything in paper would be preferred over using the agency’s own online system?

    1. Miel*

      It seems like your department does things inefficiently and doesn’t want to change. I’d be annoyed too!

    2. I Practice Bad IT Habits*

      Boss didn’t remember his login.

      Seriously. It’s one more account to track among many. I have a secret accounts table with links, user ids, p-words, security Q&As…It’s endless.

      I know the table violates protocol for account protection, but dear heavens, how else do I keep track? Single sign-on only works for the corporate sites; the government agencies we support uses different authentication for their separate systems; vendor and manufacturers also have their own logins.

      (Home use isn’t much better; between the his, hers, and ours accounts. But convincing Dear Husband to modernize our computer or at least use an effing password manager is a topic for Dear Abby, not AAM.)

      1. Kesnit*

        I have a password app on my phone. It’s the only way I can keep track of them all!

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I’d guess the boss either prefers hard copy or doesn’t like the electronic system. (Our system for these kinds of tasks can be nightmarish, so if it’s similar I have a modicum of sympathy.) I’d continue to do it electronically, but keep printouts for when the boss asks.

  45. AdequateArchaeologist*

    I applied for a job in another state because we are looking at moving in the next few months. I just got an interview invitation so yay! But I also just re-read the job posting and noticed it says “residency required for position”. Which makes sense because it’s for a state government. But now I’m worried that I’ll be removed from the pool because I’m not currently living in that state. If I got the job we absolutely would move. (TBH, we’re going to move even if I don’t get the job, but on a slightly slower timeline.) Just worried and feeling a little silly.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Just make sure you mention that to them in the interview. I’m currently in city X, moving to city Z in the next 6 months but timeline very flexible, if chosen I can be living in state within the next month. (or whatever your timeline is). I usually stick it in my cover letter too. Or on a resume (“open to relocation”, “looking for positions in city Z”).

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      My state government has a similar residency requirement, but they understand that people might not be living in the state yet. Just explain it & ask what their rules are for when you need to be a resident. (There’s often a grace period – we had an extended one at the start of the pandemic.)

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I’m always very upfront about this in my cover letter. If they don’t read it (and they don’t always), I mention it if I get an interview. You can tell them you plan to move regardless. The fact that they requested an interview means they’re at least interested. Unless you fudged your address, they know you’re out of state.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Are you house hunting in the new location yet? I’d note the planned move, and offer to meet in person when you are in town for that purpose. It underlines your intention. Good luck!

      1. Mrs. Pommeroy*

        Seconding this. And maybe even do some actual house hunting already so that you can, at the interview, say something like “yes, we are actively looking and are currently favouring Ravenwood, Middlesborough, and Lakeside because they all are close to work/downtown/nature/good schools/whatever” to reassure them that you are in fact planning on moving and are not just paying lip service to their requirement.

  46. Little beans*

    Does anyone here work in communications? I’m trying to figure out if my expectations are reasonable. When I started with my organization, we were really small with 1 Comms person who kind of did everything. She was always willing to jump in and help out with anything related to our outward facing efforts- she helped us plan high visibility events, she designed items for us and created media, she ordered tshirts, etc. She has since left and we’ve grown a bit, and we now have 3 Comms staff but they have a very different role – they run our website and write stories covering all the activities we do, but they don’t actually participate in anything. When they first started, we would sometimes ask them to help out the way our former Comms director did, and their answer was basically, you can do that yourself. We recently had our biggest event of the year with all hands on deck (like, our IT staff was checking people in, and our HR person was setting up chairs). Our Comms people came but most of them made it clear that they couldn’t help because they were covering the event – which apparently meant just sitting and watching the entire time. I understand what their priorities are and why writing news stories about us is important, but when we’re understaffed and overworked, I guess I’m a little frustrated that they have one of the largest teams in our organization and they can’t even a little bit help with actually doing the main work that our organization is responsible for.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Were they actively taking pics, interviewing people, posting real-time updates, posting to social media, & writing stories? If so, they were doing the work comms people should do at an event. If not, then they should be able to help out with other things

      Your original comms director sounds like a superstar.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Monitoring social media can also be a big part of things, you want to know what people are saying in realtime and be ready to address questions and issues or potentially remove harmful spam.

        I know at my former job we ran a large event in Vegas where people could tweet a hashtag and it would appear on a giant screen at the event. A majority of content was pictures or comments of people enjoying the event, but there were also bots that glom onto popular local/concentrated hashtags and post spam and/or porn with the hashtag, and we had to have round-the-clock coverage of someone monitoring the feed and deleting the “non-relevant content” in the 60 seconds tops we had before it got blasted on the jumbotron. We probably looked like we were doing nothing but blankly staring at the same screen, but it was an incredibly important role being fulfilled.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      I kinda get where they’re coming from. Job duty growth creep is a real issue in a lot of roles, and can mess up your career trajectory (hard to give examples of the impact your writing projects have had if you spend 70% of your work effort on other duties – “designing and ordering shirts”). IT checking people in at an event isn’t ideal either.

      Can you talk to your bosses/leadership about needing to hire an all hands role or transition existing job descriptions to include the missing tasks? Bring up very specific examples of work former employee did and ask who that work should go to now. I would also be curious about if former communications person left for a more specifically focused writing job – the communications director pushing back at you co-opting their staff makes me wonder if they had exit interview feedback.

      The team player dynamic is hard. I do get where you are coming from. But it’s also hard to write a press brief about a speaker you didn’t actually listen to because you were helping lay out catering for after. They’ve also got to deal with there’s 3 of them – who gets to do actual writing and who does busy work – which can easily get distributed to where one person is the admin and the other 2 are writers.

      1. Little beans*

        We desperately need an office manager/administrative support type role. 2 Comms people have been hired while this role was vacant.

        Just to be clear, this event literally expected everyone to volunteer in some way which is why IT was checking people in.

        1. WellRed*

          There’s a difference between “expecting people to volunteer” and “assigning specific tasks” if that’s what happened.

        2. Miette*

          I think there is confusion here as to what is meant by “volunteering” to staff certain areas for this event vs. doing the work you’ve been hired to do that directly serves the event. In this case, your comms people ARE working at the event–it’s part of their job to do it–the event and its coverage is very much in their wheelhouse. Your IT team checking people in is different. It’s not their core job duty, but they’re pitching in during an all-hands situation.

          If having to do that “volunteering” is causing hard feelings among staff (clearly you’re one of those), you might try soliciting volunteers from among the attendees to fill some of the lower-level tasks in lieu of a free or discounted admission cost, if that’s relevant.

    3. Lady Dedlock*

      Comms person here. I think your frustration with your comms team should be directed toward your management team because it sounds like you all are wildly understaffed (especially if a three-person team is one of your biggest teams).

      Your comms people are doing the jobs they were hired for. At an event, that indeed might mean listening and taking notes so they can write up stories later. This may not look like work to you, but for comms staff, it’s probably a core responsibility. It also may not be what the organization considers “the main work,” but it takes all kinds of work to make an organization run.

      My personal experience also suggests that comms staff are often treated like administrative staff if they don’t put up some boundaries around the tasks they’ll take on. Not only do admin tasks take me away from my main responsibilities—things that have to get done that no one besides me can do because the organization hired me for my particular skill set—but they also will not help me advance in my career. If anything, taking them on means that you’ll increasingly be tapped for low-level tasks that no one wants to do.

      Some people will also mistake comms people for administrative staff

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        This. But if everyone is expected to do a little extra for this one event, you could ask what works for them. (It does sound like you’re big enough to hire some temporary help for it, though. That way everyone can do their main job.)

      3. Little beans*

        I think you’re right. My frustration should be with the leadership that has been willing to prioritize this area and let other positions be vacant for a long time. Most of our teams are only 1-2 people and some positions have been empty for over a year.

    4. M.*

      I mean, communications isn’t really events work, though? As a writer, I totally get the benefit of being at the thing in person to see it firsthand, interview others, etc. But while I’ll certainly help carry a chair or two, I’m really not there to staff an event. My focus is completely different.

  47. Annie*

    Anyone have tips for working through feelings that management discussions are ‘talking behind people’s backs?’ I often have coaching discussions based on what my boss told me that the employee did, rather than information I gained directly through observing employees or talking to the employee directly. I know that conversations between managers about reports, without the reports’ presence, need to happen for management to happen, but it sometimes feels like people will think I’m approaching this in bad faith, like “John told me you did XYZ”, like we’re gossiping. I do always give them the opportunity to share their side of the story and I ask questions about what happened, but sometimes I feel uncomfortable with how I attained the information in the first place. How can I work through this?

    1. Scott*

      Why do you need to disclose the source of your information to them? I think starting the conversation with “I understand you had some problems on the ABC presentation.” Even if your employee knows you were not there for the presentation they don’t need to know who told you about the problem. I think just focusing on the problem/behavior is the importan part.

    2. RagingADHD*

      When management works well together, they are a team. It would be toxic and dysfunctional for members of the management team to keep back information from each other that they need to help/work with their reports.

      I think this expectation of yours that others will view it in “bad faith” is coming from some kind of unrealistic expectations, or maybe a prior bad experience. Or maybe a current dysfunction in the relationship between employees and management.

      Your job is to make sure the work goes well and the employees have the tools and environment they need to do their jobs. None of it is personal. If your employees actually feel like management is personally attacking them or unfairly criticizing them based on gossip, then there are big-picture problems with your company culture.

      If this is just a feeling you have separate from what your reports are saying/doing, then try to figure out where it comes from.

    3. Theon, Theon, it rhymes with neon*

      This is a situation I’m in a lot. The main question I ask myself is, “Will it come as a surprise to the report that their manager and I have been talking?”

      If you’re both managers and you’re known to collaborate, then it shouldn’t be a surprise that two managers are having performance-related conversations. That’s their job.

      If you’re not a manager, but the manager has said something like, “Hey, report, I’ve noticed you’ve been struggling when you give presentations. I’m going to ask Annie to help you out, since she’s got a lot of experience with public speaking,” then you knowing about the employee’s struggles won’t come as a surprise either.

      The problem would be if you approached the report without any managerial role, or one where it’s not obvious why you know anything about the team the report works on, and said, out of the blue, “Hey, your boss said your presentations haven’t been going over so well,” and the report was left thinking, “That’s the first I’ve heard of this! Why is my manager telling everyone but me about my performance problems?” That’s a situation to avoid at all costs.

      But even assuming that it’s your job as a manager to talk to their manager, how best to broach the topic with the report depends on your relationship with them.

      The more visible you are to this report, the easier it will be for them to see you as part of the team they’re on and naturally accept feedback and help from you. How often do they interact with you? If not directly, how often do they hear your name? Do they know their manager works closely with you, or will your feedback feel like it’s coming out of the blue?

      My guidelines for myself are: I try to not be the first person to give direct negative feedback to someone if I’m not their manager *and* I haven’t witnessed the behavior; I try to engage with the person’s own words as much as possible, rather than what other people have said about them; and I try to present myself as a helper in a 2-way street. I assume the person wants to succeed in what they’re struggling with. (If they don’t, that’s a different conversation than coaching.)

      Now, engaging with the person’s own words doesn’t mean I’m not acting on the manager’s input. I use what I learned from the manager to ask the report very leading questions! I guide the discussion to find out what the report thinks (just as you do) first, and to get us talking. I find that if I work closely enough with someone, it’s usually not that hard to get them talking about the right subject without ever telling them their manager talked about them.

      For example:

      “How did your presentation on Tuesday go?” “I’ve been wondering, is making more judgment calls in these projects something you’re interested in doing more of? What support would you need to do more of that?” “How do you feel about your llama-bathing skills? Are you getting the opportunities you need to hone them?”

      tend to lead the same ability to offer my own guidance as

      “Your boss says your presentation was disorganized” (or even “I understand that you had some problems with your presentation on Tuesday). “Your boss says we’re paying you to show more initiative than you are.” “Your boss says you missed spots on your last 5 llamas and clients complained.”

      but way less stressfully for everyone involved.

      If you can solve the problem that way, because the person really wants to succeed, just needs coaching or pointers on how, that’s a win. If not, then you’re on to step two, which is having more difficult conversations, but those conversations should start with the direct manager. (If the manager isn’t having the right conversations, then that’s trickier, and it may end up being a situation you need to wash your hands of.)

  48. Rona Necessity*

    I started a new job on Wednesday where time tracking is a much bigger deal than it was in any of my previous jobs. Here’s what my typical day looks like:
    1 h – responding to emails and preparing for the day
    2 h – executing deliverable A for project Z
    1 h – researching requirements for deliverable B for project Z
    2 h – internal meetings to discuss project Z
    3 h – executing deliverable B for project Z

    At my previous jobs, I would report all 9 of those hours as “Project Z – Deliverables A-E”. As it’s been explained to me, my current employer wants only those hours where I’m actually executing on a deliverable to be reported as billable – 5 hours. The other 4, including the time spent researching, counts as Admin or Meeting or Training or other non-billable time.
    So, questions:
    (1) Is this a common practice?
    (2) How do I accurately keep track of how much time I spent on things?

    1. RagingADHD*

      It’s pretty common for that first hour of general emailing and preparation to be considered non-billable admin. All the other stuff would, in my experience, be considered billable. Maybe under different cost codes if they are super granular, but it is all work done in furtherance of the client’s project.

      The most effective method of personal time tracking is the one that you will actually use consistently. For me, that’s keeping a paper log of start and stop times, which I can supplement or correct by looking at my file history/browser history/edit log. I’ve tried a bunch of different methods, and this is the one that I screw up the least. YMMV.

    2. MaryLoo*

      Researching requirements and holding meetings to discuss the deliverable are not admin tasks. They are parts of the work required to deliver the deliverable. So they’re billable.

      “Admin” would be things like the time it took to schedule the meeting, book a meeting room, etc.

      Calling the research and the meetings where you discuss the actual project “admin” would be like a research scientist who publishes study findings in a journal calling the actual research “admin” and only the time spent typing the findings as “actual work”.

  49. LC*

    Any suggestions on how to leave teaching? I’m about 8 years in and I feel like I’m maybe in too deep to do anything else – at least that will have comparable pay. I have a masters in education and another in criminology but I haven’t touched the latter since I graduated in 2009.

    1. MacGillicuddy*

      Corporate training. Technical writing. User experience. All these use skills that teachers have.

      Look for short term programs (like 6 month certificate programs) designed for career changers. Sometimes the certificate is what’s needed to show employers you’ve “put your money where your mouth is”.

      Look at professional organizations in the new field. Often they have info about such programs.

      You don’t need to go back to get another 4-year degree unless you’re making a huge non-overlapping career change, like from teacher to RN.

    2. CakeDonut*

      Former teacher here! I left teaching last year. If you’re looking to change to a totally non-campus job (not at a school site/not just transitioning to an adjacent job like an instructional coach or curriculum coordinator), consider non-profit work, government jobs, or anything that uses your skills–likely organization, speaking to others/strangers/publicly, writing, computer skills, etc. People I know who have left teaching in the past few years have become the following: non-profit communications manager, theater education/outreach manager, college admissions worker, writer/independent contractor, school system testing coordinator, computer company professional development manager, and a college professor.
      It’s definitely scary leaving (“I’ve been trained to spend my day sectioned in these ways and doing this particular work” was my thinking) but it can be very rewarding!
      Also, if you’re not sure its teaching or your particular environment, consider a different school (or charter/private).

  50. Re'lar Fela*

    Weird question, but my neurodivergent ass doesn’t know how to handle it:

    I have ADHD, but was not diagnosed until a couple of years ago. I’ve been trying various medications for the past couple of years and recently found one that actually works. We’ve been messing with the dosage for a few weeks now, but have finally settled on one that is perfect.

    So.

    My work quality + quantity has increased tenfold. People from all areas of the office are recognizing my increased contributions and my boss is thrilled. I, however, feel incredibly awkward and have no idea how to handle this. Do I intentionally slow myself down to manage expectations in case my productivity dips in the future? Do I shout from the rooftops that the increase in…well, everything….is because I’m now properly medicated and not because I was lazy/stupid in the past? Do I just kick ass while I can and build up some grace in case things flop in the future? IDK.

    I’m nervous because I’ve tried medications before that worked really well for a minute, but then my tolerance built and I couldn’t increase the dosage anymore and just flopped. But so far so good for this one. I’ve been on a consistent dosage for about two weeks now (but just got the dosage in a single pill on Wednesday, which has been INCREDIBLE). I’m not sure how to handle this.

    Like I said, weird question. Happy Friday!

    1. EMP*

      This is awesome for you! Yay! Personally I would not saying anything specific, for the reasons you mentioned (the burst of productivity could decrease, things might change, etc). If asked or if it’s mentioned, I would be vague but positive, something like “Yep, I’ve finally found a routine that works for me, I’m so glad my increased productivity has been helping Team!”

    2. Anonymous healthcare person*

      No-one at work is entitled to know anything about your diagnosis/meds/health related anything, except, in Canada, HR for the purposes of accommodations if needed. If you want to, you can vaguely say something about having made some positive changes, or really getting into the groove of your job, or thanking people for appreciating your work, or whatever you like. But over-sharing about any issue could lead to discrimination against you in various ways. Plus it’s none of their business! And, as you say, the medication may or may not continue to work really well for you. Fingers crossed that it does, though, and congratulations on making so many positive changes! Also – not a weird question.

    3. AdequateArchaeologist*

      I vote build grace but also pull back a little. I don’t have ADHD, but I do have depression and like you say finding the right medicine is incredible. When I found my magic combo my productivity at home and work skyrocketed, and I kind of overextended myself. So pull back to like 80-90% just so you don’t burn yourself out running full tilt. This will also make it less obvious if your meds stop working (which, fingers crossed that doesn’t happen).

    4. RagingADHD*

      Isn’t it the best feeling in the world! I would say, don’t go shouting anything right now, because there is no reason that you need to poop on your past self. You were doing the best you could then, you are able to do even better now.

      Life being what it is, you will most likely have *something* that takes the edge off your best effort later on. Even if this med works perfectly forever, at some point in life you are going to get sick, have something stressful happen in your personal life, hit a major learning curve, or something else entirely unrelated to ADHD that will slow you down temporarily. So make hay while the sun shines, and don’t trick yourself into thinking it will shine every day forever. Don’t psyche yourself out by thinking that any day you are less than 115% is “lazy/stupid.” That’s poison.

      I would advise you to use your current level of executive superpower to set aside a time margin– 5-10% of your work time every day — that you use exclusively for building resilience that can sustain you later on. Get better organized in the macro and micro scale. Create checklists, templates, routines, and reminders. Set up automations. Clear your backlog. Streamline. Get things tidy.

      Build up a little emergency fund in your work capacity, so you can make withdrawals later on while still keeping your work up to standard. Part of the hassle of ADHD is that you are working so hard to do the basics, you don’t maintain your margin. So then when anything doesn’t go exactly right, you’re fixing a huge mess. You have a good opportunity now to build up that margin.

    5. ADHD Too*

      No advice, but I feel you! I found a dose of adderall I can handle while unemployed, and now everyone at my new job thinks I’m some kind of organized rockstar. I get nervous when I think about losing the adderall.

      Okay, but a bit of advice: this is a big enough deal that everyone noticed the uptick in productivity. If you knew someone who had a spontaneous, 10x increase in productivity, would you be shocked if that disappeared later on? Probably not, is my guess. Try not to worry too much (although apparently worrying too much is an ADHD thing).

    6. Your local password resetter*

      Adding my voice to the people above: enjoy the ride, and try not to overwork yourself. I’ve got a bad habit myself of taking on more than I can handle when I’m back on my feet, and it can definitely undermine you if you’re not careful. So keep an eye on yourself and try to recognize your new limits and stick to them. That will make it much easier to maintain this over time.

      Also be kind to yourself and keep some perspective if/when your productivity goes down again. If you end up better than before, that’s a win! Even if you don’t reach this height again in the future, you’re better off than before. And definitely don’t blame it on yourself as a personal fault if it does go down. It’s just your brain chemistry.

  51. Nikara*

    I’m a shiny new manager (internal promotion in March) and I just got my first management quandary. One of the people I supervise just invited me to her birthday party (sent to my City email, but a weekend party at a local hotel). I shouldn’t go, right? Some challenges in this- she’s older than me, and has been with the City longer than me. I’ve seen other birthday parties with city employees of a variety of ranks all attending (as documented on Instagram). Do I send a card? Give a gift? Just decline? Not really sure what to do from here.

    1. Miel*

      It sounds like you and your coworkers are particularly tightly connected on social media! That makes me a little nervous, tbh.

      Anyway, unless you’re particularly close, I’d skip the party and maybe give her a card.

      Gut check: what do you want to do for each one of your employee’s birthdays? It would be weird to do a lot for one and nothing for another.

      Second gut check: ask a more experienced manager how these things usually go in your organization.

      Good luck!

    2. Policy Wonk*

      What I have done in a situation like this is to drop by, say happy birthday and buy her a drink, then leave (noting they are sure to have more fun when the boss isn’t there, so they understand why.) But I agree with Miel, wouldn’t hurt to check with someone else in the organization.

  52. user4279*

    I need a quick reality check. I work in a profession that’s in high demand (think tech).

    In the past I used to change my job after 1-2 years at every company and companies do ask about that during job interviews, although that also made it possible for me to progress in my career very quickly. It’s not untypical to switch jobs frequently in my field either.

    Now I’m in a job that resulted 1) too junior but also 2) very demanding – the expectation is that I work 12h/day without additional pay. I’m basically super busy but doing silly tasks during which I don’t learn anything. I just got a symbolical salary raise this year despite a very good performance review and an extreme amount of unpaid overtime done. It just covered around 1/3 of the inflation rate. In my field most companies give you +10-20% a year unless they are ok with you leaving.

    I’m thinking about switching jobs since conversations with my bosses didn’t bring anything. At a new company I can get +30% salary straight away. I actually already got an offer like that a few months back but turned it down. I would quit after a 1.5 year at the company. Is that very bad?

    1. Saraquill*

      If it’s typical in your field, and your current company is giving you 12 hour days and not enough to reflect that, I say switch.

    2. PollyQ*

      It’s not very bad, and given your current situation, I’d take it. I would think about trying to stay at the new job for a longer period of time, say 3-5 years.

  53. Banana Naan*

    I’m trying to transition out of the nonprofit field, but I’m not sure what jobs exist that would be a good fit without additional schooling. Is there an equivalent for what I do in the for-profit world?

    I have just under 2 years as a Salesforce and SAP Hybris user, and have been studying for the Admin exam. I’m also learning how to make better data visualizations for work and personal projects.
    I have 2 years of grant writing, producing knowledge articles, pamphlets, and more. I also publish fiction regularly on the side.
    I manage our Qualtrics account and analyze and report out on our participants’ survey taking. I also work with our national office on our yearly site-wide assessment, and report on the results to the nonprofit as a whole so they can shape their programs, write grants, promote, and strategize.

    I wouldn’t call my job super technical, but it’s more technical than a typical customer service position. I think of my job as the bridge between the data-heavy side of things and the customer or staff who isn’t as specialized. I help outside people get registered in the system on a daily basis, but I also help staff understand the broader picture.

    I’m okay with remote, but I’d prefer to have something hybrid or on-site.

    1. Freelancer*

      You could consider federal consulting! Contractors who work for the federal government need people who can help them put together competitive bids, and the skill sets you have–SalesForce, grant writing (which maps really closely to proposal writing in nonprofits), data visualization, and generating reports (which has a component of evaluation–you’re thinking about what your leadership needs to see/measure, and how you can capture and interpret that data)–scream out to me “successful proposal writer/business development admin.” Consulting is a field where remote work has been normal for many years.

      I did a quick search for “Top 100 Contractors of the U.S. federal government” and found a long list on Wikipedia, and there are hundreds more smaller companies. You could start there, or do job searches for “proposal writer,” “junior proposal writer,” “business development support,” or (this might be a stretch) “proposal manager.”

      Best of luck to you in your search!

    2. Fabulous*

      There are actually roles that use almost all of your skills and work experience in the HR field at larger companies! In ours, there’s an entire group in HR Operations dedicated to creating and analyzing Voice of the Employee and Voice of the Customer surveys and strategizing ways to address issues uncovered. Also, my brother in law is a “staff researcher” at a national motor company and I feel like he does a lot of the same thing.

    3. Advice Giver*

      The first thing that comes to mind might require additional schooling, but is program evaluation – it’s kind of the next level up of what you’ve been doing. (There tends to be a bias toward formal schooling, particularly around the aspect of designing and implementing quality evaluations, so it might not fit your ask.) That being said, some firms might be looking for people in the evaluation assistant/coordinator level that would be a great fit for you, and from there you could learn on the job if you want to progress – which is better than schooling, in my experience.

      1. Banana Naan*

        There’s actually a job opening near me that sounds a lot like what you just described. Thank you!

    4. Miette*

      With your Salesforce and analytical experience, you might look into whether sales or marketing ops positions would be of interest. These are the folks that track data within sales or marketing automation solutions in search of trends or problem areas, ensure the right content is being delivered at the right time, integrate data, etc. I am currently in B2B high tech, and this is very much in demand.

      Also, if you are looking to pursue additional education, data science is very much a growth field near me (Northeastern US), with many universities offering Masters programs. Your experience using Qualtrics to do research/analysis would fit in well. Good luck.

      1. Banana Naan*

        I’ve been thinking about a remote data science program, but I haven’t done well in math-heavy subjects and I’m hesitant to take on loans (I was fortunate to escape undergraduate with generous parents and financial aid). The University of Chicago has a remote professional program that I’m interested in that focuses on data analytics. I’ve been trying to brush up on my statistics skills on my own and polish myself through personal projects.

        Thank you for the advice! I’ll keep it in my back pocket.

  54. Two Chairs, One to Go*

    I’m being contacted by recruiters, interviewing, and I even got a part time contract!! But it’s not enough to leave my full time role. I’m being told we’re over staffed but whenever I ask for help I don’t get any. I’m being given more and more work because I’m good at it but it’s not sustainable (for anyone) and my grandboss apparently keeps forgetting about all the work on my plate? I’d put in notice today if I had any sort of buffer but I’m stuck for now. (I need the health insurance.)

    How do I get through this? I know I’ll get another full time job eventually but I need to take care of myself in the meantime. And therapy, yoga, etc don’t solve the problem, which is I need a new job.

    I feel like I’ve been asking this question for about 9 months now. I’m also tired of hearing the job market is so great – it is tough when you’re changing careers.

      1. Can Can Cannot*

        Agree. As long as your boss and grandboss aren’t feeling any pain, they will not help.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Thirded.

        I recognize that it’s easy for us, as anonymous internet commenters to say, “Take the risk of practicing ‘No.'” And I also don’t think there’s any more that you can do, since you’re already taking steps to move on to a new job.

        Some suggested script:

        You: “Okay, if you want me to do X, that means pushing Y and Z back by two weeks.”
        (Grand)Boss: “No, you have to do all three. Figure it out.”
        You: I understand that all three need to be done, but it’s not possible with our current resources. Until you provide me with additional staff or tell me to prioritize otherwise, I will priortize X, then work on Y and Z.” Repeat ad naseum.

        Good luck!

        1. Two Chairs, One to Go*

          Thanks. The problem is that if I drop something, it’ll be the projects that are getting me experience for my next career move. So I’d only hurt myself and do more of what I’m trying to get away from. That’s partly why I feel so stuck.

  55. It's Time To Get Goin' (Plant Merchandising)*

    I started the thread last week seeking info about plant merchandising, and I just wanted to once more thank the people who chimed in! Having learned more on retail merchandising in general since last week, it’s something I’m definitely going to look into when I have my own transportation again. I’m especially interested in having a work/life balance once more, since my current situation is either working or getting ready to work, upwards of 19 hours a day (yeah, I don’t get to sleep much). I’m looking into other kinds of retail merchandising now. Since the thing I was most interested in was plant merchandising, which seems to be all seasonal around here, I think it would be neat to take different seasonal RM jobs during the year, and if one clicks, maybe look for permanent opportunities. But I don’t mind long-term seasonal-to-seasonal, particularly if it gives me little breaks between them to take care of things in my own life, visit friends and family, etc.

    To be honest, my longterm goal is to start my own garden nursery someday. The toxic job I’m currently in, and any RM jobs I may take in the future, are mostly so I can save up to be my own boss once again. I thrived the last time I worked for myself, and only health issues nixed it before. But if I love RM work enough and don’t feel like I’m being mismanaged or micromanaged, I’d be totally down for staying in retail merchandising for a long time.

    I’m really excited to, I hope someday soon, have a job where I can move around and be active, be able to go eat lunch and have an actual bathroom break when I need it, and NOT have to talk to 300-450 people a day in person and on the phone! Thank you again for everything you shared. :)

  56. Random Bystander*

    Tips for an older worker who is thinking about applying for an internal company position dramatically different than current work?

    I’m 56 and the company I worked for “sold off” my area to a larger corporation. The job that I have been doing has some interesting challenges, and while it’s not a total “love my job” it had enough going for it that I didn’t mind continuing. But now they’re creating a new team, and my supervisor told me that I am going to this new team (no questioning of me beforehand) … and quite frankly the new team’s role involves stripping away *EVERYTHING* that I find enjoyable and challenging in my job and leaving me with only the most unpleasant (which I have been doing all along, but it’s not something I want to do full time) parts of the job. So—I’ve looked on the job listings for the company, and there’s a position that, while dramatically different from what I’ve been doing, does play to my personal strengths/interests and is at least “remote considered” (I would only take it if it does stay remote, or with occasional in-office times, as the location is 200 miles away, and I am not at all interested in relocating).

    I haven’t interviewed for a job since 2011, and one of the job requirements is a bachelors (which I earned in 1987!), not in the field that I have my BA but … well, I’d like to give it a try, but at 56 do I really have a chance? Anyone with experience at trying a major shift this late in the game?

    1. Mrs. Pommeroy*

      No personal experience with trying a major shift this late in the game BUT what do you have to lose by giving it a try?
      Your old job will not come back, your planned new job is everything you hate, and this other position is a lot of things you love. Plus, you have lots of experience in the company (and work in general) and can at least point to your track record of working in your old capacity for them. When if not now is there a time to give this change a try?
      Also, the BA thing is probably more of a level of education requirement rather than the specific field – experience, passion and interest, and willingness to learn (no matter how old you are) are vastly more important.
      I’d say, go for it! They can’t do more then politely decline :)

    2. Slightly Less Evil Bunny*

      In my late 40s, I went back to school for a totally different field. (One that I had absolutely no work experience in, hence the degree program.) At the age of 53, I got my first job in the new field, and it’s going really well.

      You *can* do this!

    3. PollyQ*

      My aunt picked a very different role, with a different employer, in the same industry she’d worked in for most of her career sometime after her 60th birthday (I think? It sure wasn’t much before). She’s now been doing it for about 10 years. And the good news about Bachelor’s degrees is that they don’t expire. As long as you have one so they can tick the box, you’re golden.

  57. J.B.*

    Hmm, ok I need advice on approach. I am struggling with an employee who is very capable but who is young and thinks she knows everything. (I recognize this from myself at a similar age :) I am in a senior position – although it was not official until recently I’ve been operating in that position for quite a while.

    This person provides good, thoughtful advice but doesn’t know when to stop. I manage our development projects. She wants to continue arguing for every feature known to man, and has irritated my boss by praising our competitors product. This feels like something that would be easier in person. Is it worth giving a heads up over teams, or just letting this one go?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I would let it go if you can’t do an in person conversation. Tone is hard to read in slack/teams. “Don’t do XYZ” may come off a lot stronger/negative than you meant it to sound. You could try and address it in the moment – she praises competitor product to where you know boss is getting annoyed, chime in “I’m sure Sally prefers our own product above all others, but she does raise a point about the stop button. I don’t think we have time for that in our existing upgrades but I’ll make a note for if we do end up doing a second round of revisions”. I think too, that having someone willing to say “yo we’re falling behind the competitor” is valuable in some situations so if you can coach her into when to speak up vs not it might be useful to you. If you do address it make sure you do the feedback sandwich, not just all negatives.

    2. talos*

      Do you ever have checkin type meetings with this person? Or other 1:1 meetings with just you and them?

    3. Miel*

      Are you in a mentorship role for this person?

      You may be able to provide some more explanation/ background on specific instances. “I know, it would be awesome if we could add these features, but because there are a lot of other high priority projects, we can really only spend X Budget and Y Timeline on this. We made the decision to prioritize A and B, and we won’t be able to do C and D. These decisions can be tough but as a company we really have to prioritize sometimes.”

      She’ll probably catch on eventually – but in the meantime, maybe you can help her understand a little more of the context.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      Personally if I was this person (and I have been!) I’d want to know what was going on. Can you call her on Teams and have a discussion? Barring that, if you or your grand boss have a good relationship with her boss, I’d give them a heads up that this is an area where she might need coaching.

    5. Anon for this one*

      One thing I used with one of my direct reports was to limit the number of issues she could raise. Not knowing how long your projects are or how many features, it’s hard to give you a target, but I told her she could only raise three issues. Which three does she think are most important? (For a longer project she got five.) And I also told her that I understood the point she made the first time, so if I overruled her it was not because I didn’t understand – she could reclama my decision ONCE if something was really important, but if she raised the same issue again the discussion was over. It is still a work in progress, but she has gotten way better, and is starting to develop some judgement.

  58. Manders*

    I’ve been reading this blog for a while. I find it insightful and funny – and often horrifying. It makes me realize that much more just how lucky I am for the job I have. I have worked with my boss since 1999, first at a company and now at a university. He treats me with respect, values my opinions, and has routinely pushed for as many raises as is possible at a state-run university. The university pays under the industry standard, but the benefits – everything from vacation time to 403b matching – are great. My job has flexibility and as long as I get my job done my boss does not care what time I come in and leave. I appreciate and genuinely like many of my co-workers. I feel very, very lucky to be in this position.

    1. PollyQ*

      OTOH, sure, you’re lucky. OTOH, remember that advice columns, by their very nature, are an extremely biased sample, because people only write in if they’re having some kind of problem.

      1. Manders*

        Oh, for sure! I’ve had some bad colleagues who I’ve genuinely disliked and such too. But I look around at my friends who are all satisfied with their jobs, but I’m truly HAPPY with mine, and realize that I would not get any happier with another job. Like you could pay me twice what I make now, but take away the flexibility and the awesomeness of my boss and it would be a totally different situation. I’m just really, really grateful. That’s all. I just wanted to put that out in the universe.

    2. Frankie Bergstein*

      Yessssssssss! This makes me so happy to read! A decade ago I wrote in to AAM to ask if ANYONE was happy in their job, and your message here is one I wish I could send back in time to her.

  59. s*

    Hey all– how would you portray a job that you basically just started on a resume? I’ve only been in this position for ~2 months, am doing fine so far but very much still learning the lay of the land, and certainly don’t have any “accomplishments” yet. I’m not generally looking for a new job after I just took this one, but saw an exciting opportunity and want to throw my hat in the ring while the job market is so strong for employees. I was at my previous job for a number of years and I guess I could just leave the current job off my resume, but I feel like I’ll be more likely to pass through the screening for this kinda-reach job if it’s clear that I’m currently well-employed. Any thoughts?

    1. s*

      (Like is it okay to just recapitulate the job description and the fact that that’s not very inspiring won’t really matter because anyone reviewing it would get that I just got here?)

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yes, exactly. And if they ask why you’re looking so soon, you can talk about how it was such a good opportunity you couldn’t pass it up.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      Personally I’d leave a 2 month tenure off my resume – it has the potential to do more harm than good imo, since you can’t really speak to accomplishments in your current role after only two months.

  60. Religionatwork*

    All of these religious posts have got me thinking about something in ny office. In what I assume is a goodhearted attempt, my CEO has started to begin major meetings with a prayer to the Native American Gods (as part of a land acknowledgement). It just seems really offputting to me to hear about giving thanks to the God of the Eagles and of the Morning Sun before we talk about quarterly finances. I’d like to keep religion out of the office, but I know it would go down like a lead balloon to say something about it. If it matters, I don’t think he’s a member of a native religion. Am I in the wrong, and is this becoming a Thing?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You’re not in the wrong.

      This is bad. Pick your description – patronizing, cultural appropriation, obtuse, etc.

      Nobody should be leading prayers of a religion they aren’t a member of. And nobody should be leading prayers in a workplace at all, unless it is an explicitly religious institution of some sort – a church, a parochial school, etc.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I recently listened to the episode about Land Acknowledgements on the Stuff You Should Know blog. This sounds like a… misunderstanding of how they should be done.

      I think they’re a great idea, but they do need to be done properly.

    4. It's Time To Get Goin'*

      Native American here, and side-eyeing the F out of your CEO. If it’s not part of your background and not part of your religion (which sounds like it’s the case for him by the tone of your post), you don’t really understand it, and you shouldn’t f***ing be doing it. You can be respectful, if that’s what he’s going for, without appropriating.

    5. Miel*

      Wildly out of line.

      I know you said you don’t want to make waves, but consider if you could mention this to a few colleagues and get some traction behind shutting this down.

      Also, if you have any sort of Diversity department, they’d probably be very interested to hear about this.

      1. pancakes*

        I agree. I kinda can’t believe no one has said anything yet, to one another at least, because it’s so out of line. And odd. It would be too much for even a sitcom character!

    6. Dark Macadamia*

      Nooooo this sounds so bad. I live in an area where it’s pretty common to do land acknowledgements but it’s always just “We are on Native land of X, Y, and Z tribes, and this acknowledgement is only a first step toward making amends” or something like that. This sounds like appropriation, and even if he’s sharing his own religion that’s also unacceptable at work.

      1. After 33 years ...*

        Ours includes, “We strive for respectful relationships with all the peoples of this province as we search for collective healing and true reconciliation and honour this beautiful land together.”
        We would not include anything suggestive of religious practice or beliefs. Any such material would not be well-received. If your CEO is sincere but misguided, some guidance might be useful.

    7. AdequateArchaeologist*

      Yeah, no. That’s not what land acknowledgement is. Or even how you go about respecting religions you aren’t part of. I could see a discussion of religious practices for a group/tribe if it’s relevant to your actual work. But this sounds…not like that.

      Heck, even as an archaeologist whose work does discuss native religious beliefs in the context of our final product, that’s way over the line of what would be appropriate. Ok: these types of rock formations are sacred, put down for project avoidance. Not ok: let’s pray to the gods of these rock formations before we work on our EIS.

    8. Saraquill*

      I’m Indigenous. Your boss is being oblivious to the fact we’re not a f***ing monolith. It’s insulting to act like our cultures are interchangeable. Your boss is also embodying what the movie Get Out was criticizing.

  61. Lama Counter*

    My company introduced a new system, let’s say a lama data rapport, a while ago which also needed one employee in each team to take up a new role, lama counting.
    Because of some bureaucratic rules, out of our team of 15 only I and one other employee were eligible for the lama counting certificate, and we both weren’t sure if we’d even want to do lama counting. Therefore we jointly agreed to switch the role between the two of us, each doing lama counting for one week and then the other person becoming the lama counter.
    Lama counting is only a small part of our job and it’s not an added burden to our plate, which is to say I have to do less of my regular job the week I’m a lama counter, so my bosses understand that if you get extra tasks, something else needs to be deprioritized.
    We’ve now done this for two months and I’m sure I don’t want to be a lama counter at all, not even half the time as it is now. I’m ok with being a “back up” lama counter, taking over the role when the regular lama counter is on holiday for example, but I don’t want it to be part of my regular work. I have noticed that while I am decent at it – not good, but for someone just starting definitely not bad – it gives me a lot of stress and I dread going to work the days where I know there will be a lot of lama counting. I even deliberately postpone some of the lama counting tasks and take up some regular work to destress myself – not missing any deadlines but I notice I need it to keep myself at a decent stress level.
    I have already told my fellow lama counter that this is not working out for me. He is himself still not thrilled about the lama counting work but doesn’t seem to be as opposed to it as I am. I have asked my boss for a meeting where we discuss how we like the lama counting work and how it’s working out for us, which will be next week. I want to ask for this responsibility to be removed from my plate completely – aside from possibly when the actual lama counter is on holiday or sick.
    So my question is, are there any scripts for asking a responsibility to be removed from my plate? I want to say something like “I gave it a shot and now see that it’s not for me”. I don’t really care if the other employee takes the full role or they hire someone new for it (which they did for some other teams that had 0 eligible people in it).
    While I believe my company to be decent enough that they’ll agree to leave this off my plate – maybe with a few weeks while they find someone else – I also believe I need to make a good case before they’ll want to do that. Lama counting is not a particularily stressful job (I can’t really explain why it stresses me so much) and the teams that hired someone new for it are now all 4 doing awful: there is quite some interpersonal conflict because the new lama counters don’t understand particularities about our regular jobs. I worry both of these can be used as counter arguments why I should continue and I don’t really know how to rebut them. Also, lama counter is quite a prestigious title so it sounds like I want to “go back” a step in my carreer.
    Are there any articles on askamanager already on how to word/ask something like this?

  62. Dirty Twirls*

    How do you deal when you keep getting assigned tasks that you hate? Especially ones that come up as emergencies when other staff won’t do due diligence on paperwork, or leadership refuses to set rules for?

    I keep getting pulled into things at my job (mostly over the last week) but over the last 4 months also, that were not meant to be my job. For a brief moment, this made me consider leaving; I’d recently been converted to a fed from a contractor position after 5 years, and in applying for job postings to get converted I’d actually gotten an interview invitation elsewhere. I appreciate the mentality that no one on my team is “too good” to do a particular task (my boss took on particularly onerous calendaring for an executive when our executive assistant was on mat leave this spring, I got something less awful to do), but I’d specifically asked to do less or none of these when I was hired and been assured then that I was back-up at best for a couple of more complex tasks that really shouldn’t be part of my role now. I’m getting burned out on spending a whole day at a time fixing something that’s already been completed, blowing apart the actual schedule I had for my day, or responding to an executive’s demand for some last-minute thing outside policy that we have to bend heaven and earth to justify instead of just saying “no.”

    The silver lining, I suppose, is that I now know that whenever it is I do look for a new position, a requirement will be “no administrative tasks.”

    *deep sigh*

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Slightly chaotic answer – be bad at doing the admin tasks. Be slow. Make minor errors. Do not make yourself the easiest person to ask about this stuff. If it’s Bob and Sally will take three hours to do the schedules and need to fix 5 errors or Twirls will do it accurately in 1hr, well they’re going to default to you. It’s not your job so it’s not a performance issue per se.

  63. kiki*

    Are my expectations for training, onboarding, and mentorship unreasonable?
    I’m a software dev with four years of experience. My first job in development was working somewhere where I was given a lot of mentorship and feedback on my work. After about three years, I moved on to a new job where I had expressed my desire for mentorship early and often during the application process. I’ve been here about 10 months and there’s absolutely none. I’m just thrown from problem to problem with a team lead who’s a wonderful person but is way too overloaded to take the time to truly mentor me. I’ve learned a lot in the 10 months I’ve been here, but it’s all been trial by fire, sink or swim situations. I really want less chaos and more mentorship, even if that means less money. It seems like right now every job I’ve interviewed for wants a really independent developer who will come in and fix all their problems and… maybe that’s great learning experience, but I find it too stressful to be dealing with that stuff by myself every day. I’ve spent most nights learning on my own in order to be able to fix things during the day. Again, learned a lot, but I want my nights back!! Am I unreasonable for thinking that should be an option?

    2. Admin of Sys*

      I’ve found the farther you go in tech jobs, the less mentorship you get? This is somewhat legit, in that after x amount of years, you are expected to be able to solve the problems yourself. But that doesn’t mean you should be sacrificing your off time to learn everything! You are allowed to learn things during the day, even if it means the problems don’t get fixed instantaneously. Also, you can hit your company up for classes or other more formalized learning if you find you need skills that aren’t already in your wheelhouse.
      On the other hand, there are places that are less chaos driven – independent developer doesn’t mean everything is always on fire, and it doesn’t mean you’re working alone. You may want to look into picking up project management terms and processes and throwing them at your job search? If a company is committed to daily scrums, there’s going to be /some/ team work happening.
      tl;dr – imo some loss of mentorship happens as you get farther in your career, but some of it is knowing how to navigate asking about company culture when interviewing

      1. Kiki*

        Thank you for your perspective! I think my preference for mentorship may be on the higher-than-average side, but I think I used “independent developer” when I should have used lone or sole. I’m fine working by my own most days and can figure out problems and how to solve them by myself, I just wish I had a true team to run certain things by or occasionally debug with.
        Part of the problem I’ve been having with job searching recently is that a lot of places, my current company included, would ideally have a team structure and say they’re committed to that, but because of recent turnover, that isn’t actually happening for them now. So instead of hiring a dev to join a team, they really want a dev to come in and right their whole ship, which I just don’t feel qualified to do and could really only be done at a senior or team lead level

        1. Kiki*

          And I’ve been told I’d make a great team lead, and I think that’s true, it’s just like, there has to be some sort of prep for that role, right? I’m not just expected to be thrown in and know how to lead and mentor and train without some sort of guidance, right??? Besides me just reading books about tech leadership on the weekend? Maybe I’m used to my time in accounting, when there was more grooming for promotions and stuff

    3. Raboot*

      By mentorship do you mean general tech skills mentorship (as opposed to onboarding and learning their specific toolchain)? I don’t think you should expect this once you have a few years of experience under your belt. More senior devs on your team should be willing to give you feedback on how to improve your work and explain their reasoning, but if the problem you’re having is that you deal with most things by yourself, that sounds pretty common. People should be willing to point you to resources or discuss options you identify hop on a call to answer specific questions but anything more involved is not really that common, this fields thrives on self-teaching for better or worse.

      If it’s important to you, you should make sure to ask some questions on the subject in your interview. I am sure there are companies who do things differently if you look for them, however nonstandard it is. But also, if you need to learn something to fix an issue, that’s a work-time thing! I do tutorials and read intros during work, not after.

      1. kiki*

        I mean more onboarding and learning their specific toolchain. I’m starting to think my first job may have spoiled me because it seemed like even senior engineers would spend time together to rubber duck a complex issue. I guess sometimes I’m thrown on something completely out of my wheelhouse (e.g. most of my experience is in Ruby on Rails and then I’m put on a .NET project as the lone developer) and I’ll reach a point where I’ve been hitting my head against the wall for a whole day. At my first job, I would just reach out and jump on a call and could talk through a problem with a teammate. At this job, nobody has time to even talk through problem together outside of code review. And timelines are tight, so that’s why I end up spending my evenings doing a lot of trainings.

        1. kiki*

          I also have to do more client-facing in this job and I’m often just thrown into meetings without any context or guidance that I’m expected to sort of lead. I have very strong soft skills and they’ve grown even more as I have done more client-facing work, but I was really caught off guard to be asked to lead a client meeting for a project I hadn’t touched two weeks into my job. I just wish there were someone to talk to for tips and pointers.

          1. kiki*

            I get a lot of “you’re doing great! Keep it up!” But I don’t think I *can* keep this up!

        2. Raboot*

          That definitely sounds frustrating! Of course a lot of ideas are translatable across languages but being the sole dev in a new language without feedback outside of code reviews doesn’t sound like a good place to build skills. I mean, maybe it would be for someone, but I’m like you and would not want my day to day to be like that. Ditto on the client thing below, it sounds like they are perhaps treating you like someone more senior in some ways, but without the required experience, it can be a bad time. Combined with the tight timelines, it sounds like a workplace with a very specific kind of environment that takes a specific kind of person to thrive in, but there should be plenty of places where you’ll have more support. I wouldn’t want a job where people aren’t free to bounce off ideas and deadlines are so tight that they don’t take into account having to learn new frameworks during work time and it’s not weird that you would want better too.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      I think this is the kind of thing where reaching out to your network and being very explicit with recruiters about what you want will help you. You need a specific kind of culture with a lot of team-based problem solving, and you’re willing to compromise on salary to make that happen. A good recruiter or potential colleague will be able to tell you right away if their company is a good fit for you.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      With four years experience, it’s not surprising to me most roles wants someone who can operate independently. So it is possible the amount of mentorship you’re asking for is unreasonable given your level. On the other hand, your nights are yours. Don’t spend them on work stuff. It’s reasonable to not want to spend that time researching/teaching yourself. Do that during work only. If they won’t let you, this company/role isn’t a good fit.

      1. kiki*

        Thanks for your perspective! I feel like part of the reason I’ve been craving more mentorship is because my current pace (working all day and studying for work all night) isn’t sustainable for me and I want somebody to be able to tell me if I’m doing something wrong that necessitates all this outside work. Am I just not smart enough? Am I just not fast enough? Is there some shortcut I’m missing for being a good software developer?

        Last night I talked with a former colleague who left the agency I’m still at. He’s much more senior than I am and has worked a lot of places, good and bad. He was really kind and told me that I’m great, my agency is asking too much of somebody at my level and the unrealistic expectations are part of the reason he left. They say, “take all the time you need to learn .NET, we know you said you don’t have experience with it. But also X and Y deliverables need to be finished for the client by this Thursday.” Apparently the agency used to consist nearly exclusively of senior talent but lost them all due to mismanagement and unrealistic deadlines. They never changed the scope of the projects they take on, so basically they try to make up for that by having mid-levels and juniors perform the work of seniors.
        I was crying with joy last night, finally feeling like I’m not stupid. My workplace is unreasonable. It’s clear now, I just needed some validation.

  64. Emby*

    I could use some help figuring out how to push back on toxic positivity culture at work. I (along with the majority of my office) started during the pandemic, and we have weekly half-hour online meetings that are a mix of imparting information and team building. My boss used to lead every week, but now a different person is assigned to lead the “fun” part of the meeting each week. Some people have done trivia games or simple ice-breaker questions (“what is your favorite song” “what movie should win best picture”. But a lot of my colleagues, following the example set by my boss when he led it, often do things like “how do you add positivity to your morning routine”, “what do you do for self care”, “what are you grateful for.” These always end up with people talking about how much taking time for meditation or prayer or affirmations is important. And having a positive outlook can change everything! I’m so over it. It makes me more depressed and stressed because I barely have time to do the basics like keep my toddler alive, let alone adding in journaling, etc. But since it’s coming from colleagues instead of leadership at this point, I don’t know how to push back. Ideas?

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      “I’m grateful this meeting ends soon” :P

      Lip service to mental health and no follow up (additional flex time, resources etc) is almost worse than just not acknowledging it at all. I’d stay shallow, don’t have to dive into the waters even if they point them out. “how do you add positivity to your morning? I convinced Toddler to stop singing baby shark and it has made a world of difference on the mood in our household!” “I’m grateful it’s a new week – looking forward to our XYZ project wrapping up”. And then tune out during the others responses. Don’t feel guilty you’re not journaling while doing upside down yoga meditating on how *grateful* you are for the universe. I bet half those people aren’t doing stuff they say.

      1. pancakes*

        I agree. It’s half an hour a week and I think a more aggressive response than that would probably be out of place. Tune out when you can, and use own hosting assignment to keep things light.

  65. divorcee*

    I made a small mistake: in applying for a new job I mentioned that my moving over the past couple of years was due to my husband’s work. This is completely true, however he is my ex husband now. I thought that putting something like that in my cover letter would be too much personal information or they might look on it poorly for TMI or divulgong personal info too soon. Now I am being offered the job and I don’t know how to explain if and when it comes up that I’m actually divorced. What can I do?

    1. Freelancer*

      I think you can relax! Most people won’t even recall your marital status, and if they do ask and you explain you are no longer married, it will most likely be the end of the conversation and a non-issue.

      As a fellow divorcee, what feels like the painful watershed moment of our lives is generally no big deal to most other people. If it does come up, you can just say something like “Oh, I moved a lot with my ex partner for their job; it’s nice to be settled in here” or something like that.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Mention it as matter-of-factly as possible: “oh, we’re divorced now” or “ex-husband, actually.”

      If people remember you mentioning you moved for you husband’s work (and some people won’t remember), most of them will assume you said “ex-husband” at the time and they misheard/misremembered.

  67. Freelancer*

    Has anyone here ever had to threaten to sue a client to pay you? I am a freelancer, and a client owes me almost $10k, which is a HUGE sum of money for me. They’ve been making excuses to not pay me for months, and I’ve had to make the painful decision to not work for them any more–but now that they know that, it’s pretty apparent that they don’t intend to pay me anytime soon, if ever. We’ve had a good relationship for a number of years, but prompt payment has always been an issue. I consulted with a lawyer and am going to send them a final notice today, and it feels terrible. I know they are poorly managed and may not have the cash to pay me at the moment, but I am in a really bad position financially without those funds.

    I guess I don’t really have a question, just looking for advice or commiseration!

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Try not to feel bad, if you can. It’s business, and you gotta put bread on your own table.

      When I’ve done nastygrams for clients who are freelancers, I’ve included a copy of the draft forms that I’m threatening to file in court. (“Enclosed please find a a copy of the claim that my office will file in 21 days if we have not received payment from you. Note that we will also be seeking the costs of filing this claim” kind of thing.) Yours is probably a small-claims court matter, and your court website may even have fillable forms you can use. Good luck!

      2. Bagpuss*

        Yes, we typically do this.
        Try not to to feel bad, it’s not nice to have to do but they are the ones who have broken the contract

    2. MJ*

      I had luck with one client (for a smaller sum) with asking them to make a minimum monthly payment if they couldn’t pay in full. I discussed what they could definitely manage, since having a regular amount I could count on was less stressful (for both parties) than constantly chasing. After a couple months of the minimum they managed to pay the balance.
      This may not work for you if you need the money now. And IANAL so don’t know if there are legal ramifications to accepting partial payments if they then don’t pay the balance.

  68. Elara*

    How do you handle thank-you notes on a multi-step interview process? I know you don’t send them, for, like, phone screens, but I just had a half-hour Zoom interview for which I only have the contact for the HR rep who was setting it up, and I was told that if I’m called back for a second interview (which sounds like it will be in person) it will be in a month after their new management is hired and will be significantly more involved.

    Do I send one now and afterward the next one (to the only person I have an email address for, who was one of the interviewers but has nothing to do with the actual work, when one of the other interviewers is leaving in a week to be replaced by this new person) or wait to see if I get called for a second one and send it then? Or send one now and not after a second one should I get called for it?

    1. New Horizons*

      When I was applying for a job earlier this year, there was a one-hour zoom interview and then an all-day in-person interview. I sent hand-written thank you cards to every person who met with me after each interview — probably five after the first one and ten after the second! I don’t know if that was over the top, but I did get the job so who knows. I would definitely send one now—that way, even if you don’t get to the next round for whatever reason, you’ve still made a positive impression. Even if the one person is leaving in a week, I would send them a thank you anyway for taking the time to meet with you.

      Tldr send them now AND after the second round! :-)

  69. JustaTech*

    What’s the best way to approach HR when you discover that one of the policies doesn’t meet the law in your state?

    My company has sites in three states with very different approaches to labor laws (two have reasonably strong laws protecting workers, the other … does not), and our maternity leave policy only covers half of what my state requires.

    My plan is to go to my on-site HR rep and say “hey, I was reading this policy and it doesn’t meet the state minimum, how can we get this fixed so we don’t get in trouble with the state?”. Or should I go directly to our brand-new head of HR?

    (My back up backup plan involves a letter from an employment lawyer, but I *really* rather not have to do that.)

    1. WellRed*

      Does fixing policy fall under your job role or are you planning or one of your employees is planning maternity leave?

    2. Miel*

      I think either onsite or Head of HR would be fine. It’ll end up in the HR director’s lap anyway.

      I think your wording is good. Alison has suggested similar wording before: “I realized that our policy doesn’t meet the minimum required by the state! How can we get that fixed?”

      If the company is decent, they’ll fix it quickly.

      Good luck!

    3. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Do you have a Compliance Department where you work? If you do, you may want/need to get them involved.

  70. Mimmy*

    Has anyone ever done a job search where you don’t have a set plan in place for relocating? Meaning, you move to where you ultimately find employment?

    Backstory:

    I’m about to graduate with a Master’s degree (yay!!) and am looking for a new job in the field I studied. Although we don’t have concrete plans to move, my husband is encouraging me to search beyond the state we live in. The cost of living is very high in our state (near the East Coast) and he would eventually like to move back to the state he grew up in, which is in the Southwest. I am currently employed part-time in a slightly different field (been there 5+ years) but I am beyond ready to move on. I am way overqualified, and I am burned out from the BS that occurs (state government).

    Some considerations:

    -I do not drive due to a disability but my husband said he’d help me with any transportation or travel.
    -Although my husband would like to move back to the Southwest, this isn’t an absolute must, for now.
    -However, he did say that if I don’t find something in this region within a year, we will move to the Southwest.
    -I am open to hybrid or even fully remote jobs, but those are probably rare in the field I’m trying to enter.

    There is a lot more to my story, but I’m worried the details will compromise my anonymity, but I’m happy to answer any clarifying questions.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Yes, I did this for my most recent job search! I had two general areas where I was looking for jobs: (1) a city I had lived in before and (2) a region where I have family.

      Before I applied to any jobs, I narrowed down my scope a little bit. Instead of applying to anywhere within the broad region, I thought about where I would like to live and made a list of maybe 8 cities in that group of states.

      I applied to jobs in the 9 cities on my list (8 near family + 1 city I had lived in before) in a someone round-robin style. Apply to job in city 1, apply to job in city 2, apply to job in city 5 because it looks really interesting, don’t see any jobs posted in city 8 right now, etc. I didn’t think to hard about it, just let the chips fall where they may.

      1. Mimmy*

        That’s helpful, thank you!

        How did you manage interviews? Were they by phone/video? Did you only have to travel if you were a finalist?

        1. Hlao-roo*

          My job search was at the end of 2021/beginning of 2022 so all of my interviews were by phone or video. One place did mention maybe flying me out after the video interview but they just made me an offer instead (I think the omicron wave was part of the reason). I accepted their offer, so I never ended up needing to travel as part of the interview process.

          One other things that I think helped me in my search: During my phone screens, I had good answers to the “I see you’re in Atlanta now, why are you applying to a job in Chicago?”-type questions. Either “I grew up in the Midwest and have family there so I’m looking to move back there” or “I lived in Chicago for a few years and really loved my time there so I’m looking to move back there.” Sounds like you’ll be able to say similar things if you look in the southwest, and that will take care of the “what if the non-local candidate hates it here?” fears.

    2. fueled by coffee*

      re: travel – I’m not sure if you’re asking about interviews or the job itself, but:

      For interviews, you almost definitely won’t need to drive yourself. If the interview is onsite (in the southwest), I’d assume that you would fly in and take taxis/uber/transit to get around locally.

      One thing to keep an eye out for, though, is how you’ll commute to work if you don’t drive and the job is in person. Which cities have good public transit systems and/or housing in your price range within a distance that won’t involve driving? Ask/google around, and then focus on applying to jobs in those places specifically.

      1. Mimmy*

        I was referring to traveling for the interview process. And yes, I will definitely be sure to check on public transportation options in the cities I’ll target.

        Thanks!

  71. Rayray*

    My company is doing mass layoffs. My team and other teams in my department were hit a couple weeks ago and many more through out the company have been let go this week. It’s scary. I’ve been applying for jobs for months cause I had a bad feeling.

    I have a phone screen on Monday for a company I have been super interested in and the job description read like it was made for me. Really really hoping it goes well.

    Any advice for phone screens? I’m always so awkward..:

    1. Saraquill*

      I prepare for them as I would other interviews, writing up questions I have, researching the company, etc. I also recommend making sure your phone is fully charged, and going into a quiet space for the screening.

    2. Mr. Cajun2core*

      This may sound very basic but I find it helps.

      Treat it like an in-person job interview. If possible, take time off and don’t do it from work. Prepare for it the same way. Dress for it. Be sure you have a quiet place to do the interview. Take at least a few minutes before and just sit and go over your notes and relax. Don’t be “doing things” until the phone call comes in.

      Again, treat it exactly as if you were doing an in-person interview.

    3. irene adler*

      For a phone screen, they will generally ask ‘top-level’ type questions- not in-depth questions.

      So, be sure to review the company website. That’s a good question to ask early on to screen out those not serious about the job. So know what they do and their products.

      Have an idea for salary. Or, ask them if they have an established range that they will reveal to you.

      There might be a few behavioral questions. Again, to weed out someone who would majorly not fit in. These would be about how you handle stress, deadlines, difficult people, or prioritize tasks.

      Good luck!

    4. The Prettiest Curse*

      The best thing about phone screens that are only over the phone is that you can have notes in front of you. So think of 8-10 potential screening questions related to the job and write down notes on your answers. I’ve done this in the past and it made me feel lot more confident just to have the notes there on the table.

  72. Saraquill*

    Sharing an interview I had from this past winter.

    The job was in my field, but didn’t quite align with what I wanted, nor was it close to my skillset. I applied anyway as it was billed as temporary. I could withstand a poor fit for a few months, right? We arranged for a phone screening. I remember very little of it, other than he asked if I had an XYZ visa. Weird, other applications don’t get this specific. I was honest, saying I didn’t have XYZ, but other authorization to work in the country.

    Come the in person interview, he was curious about my current work and wanted to see samples of it. I was not prepared for this, so he browsed my then-employers website until he found my work. He then said I’d be doing nothing of the sort for the position I’m interviewing for. My duties would be tangential to the stuff I was already used to performing. This was a temporary to permanent position in which I’d get $H amount during the temporary phase, then a little more after becoming permanent. Either way was less than I was already making, but with more hours. He then said he knew he wasn’t supposed to ask this next question, but what religion am I? In order to coordinate staff scheduling. He then worked out when I could start working for his company.

    I said I wanted time to think it over, as I was unused to turning down job offers and wanted to bounce my thoughts off of others. I did not take up his offer, and am still job hunting. No regrets.

    1. Hiring Mgr*

      Even taking the (massively inappropriate) religion thing out of it, it sounds like turning down and offer for less pay with more hours was a good move :)

    2. RagingADHD*

      I consider that a success in the same way that a bad first date is a success. Your screening process worked properly by eliminating a wrong fit.

    3. PollyQ*

      “To coordinate staff schedule” my sweet Aunt Fanny!!! The way to do that is to ask what fricken hours you’re available!!!1! Good job passing on that; well done past you!

  73. Nicki Name*

    Any tips on reducing the awkwardness when bumping into someone from your ex-job?

    I changed jobs shortly before the pandemic, switching industries as well. The one I moved into has done very well the last couple years. The one I moved from has had a very hard time.

    My current company has announced a new office location. It’s two blocks from my old company. I’m mostly remote, but I will be occasionally going into the office, and I’m sure I will be bumping into my ex-coworkers at some point and I’m feeling really weird about it already.

    2. WellRed*

      You are overthinking this. It’s been two years and it doesn’t sound like you left under a cloud of scandal. “Hello, how are you?” To close out the chat, “well, gotta run. It was GREAT to see you. Tell everyone I said hi.” Or something similar.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      This doesn’t have to be awkward. Unless you left on really bad terms, or really don’t like these people this is no big deal. Say hello. If they seem to want to chat, note the weather, of the upcoming weekend, or something banal. Small talk was made for occasions like this. If you aren’t big on small talk, practice beforehand. (And if you run into someone you like, suggest coffee or lunch one day!)

    4. Generic Name*

      Assuming you were on good terms when you left, you can smile and say hi. I bumped into a former coworker who I reported to HR for sexually harassing me, and I get the joy of seeing him at industry events. We ignore each other.

    5. Lucy Virion*

      It’s not awkward unless you make it awkward. I bump into former colleagues all the time, and it’s never a big deal. You can just say hi, ask them how they are – the usual chitchat you’d do with an acquaintance.

      (It might be worth thinking about why you are feeling so uncomfortable about the possibility though – are you feeling guilty because your new job worked out better? Do you feel like they’re going to judge you for leaving? What’s at the core of this for you? If you can figure that out you can address it for your own comfort and peace of mind. You don’t need to feel guilty for your new job working out so well – they could leave if they chose. People generally aren’t judging others for getting a new job, that’s just a normal part of working life and reasonable people expect and are used to it. And so on.)

  74. Wants Green Things*

    My mid-year touchbase is this afternoon. Last year, I asked if I could transfer to one of our offices in another state, but workload was down and there were some small concerns about my ability, so it was denied. I’ve been working really hard this year to show that I’m ready to take on the new level and I’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback from my boss and grandboss about it.

    I want to bring up the transfer again at my touchbase. I really like my company, there’s a lot of opportunities for career growth and the work is interesting, but I *desperately* want out of this state. Workload is way up and I’ve done some small projects for the other office so they’ve seen my work, so those concerns should be settled.

    But I don’t know how to ask this again without giving away the fact that I’m going to look for another job if it doesn’t go through again. I don’t want to jeopardize anything when I know out of state job offers are still difficult to get. For context – I’ve been with this company 3.5 years, since I graduated college.

    1. Mrs. Pommeroy*

      Your touchbase is probably already over and I’m too late with my answer but here it is anyway ;)
      I think you could very reasonably bring up your transfer question again, pointing to the change in circumstances (higher workload, positive feedback, projects for the other office) which would make you an ideal candidate for the transfer now.
      And you don’t have to mention your wanting to look for a different job if this falls through again AT ALL! You COULD use it for some leverage on getting transfered but since you don’t want to do that and are willing to look for other opportunities instead, you can just quietly accept their answer if they say now – maybe throw in a chipper “Alrighty! Just thought I’d ask! Please keep me in mind if a new opportunity comes up! :) ” and go on your merry job-searching way.

  75. Mixed Media*

    I was lucky enough to get an verbal offer.

    My future boss gave a proposed start date and I asked for an additional week (I’m relocating and I don’t have a written offer. I also need to do a background check). Possible future boss pushed back and said it’s plenty of time.

    I am kind of concerned of wrapping things up as well as moving. Am I being unreasonable?

    1. Anonymous healthcare person*

      I’m pretty sure Alison has addressed this question several times – search the archives. My memory is that you don’t quit your job or move until everything is complete – written and accepted job offer, negotiations of any kind done and confirmed in writing, security check done and clearing you for the job. Because, if anything falls through from the employer’s end, you are screwed. And if they think you are being unreasonable to want this, it is a red flag for sure. But – check the archives. Hope it all works out!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      As Anonymous healthcare person says, a good way to play it safe is to say “I cannot give my two weeks notice at my current job until I have a written offer letter and have passed the background check.”

      It’s also reasonable to ask for some extra time because you’re moving. Clearly this boss isn’t happy to give it, but you are reasonable to ask for an extra week.

    3. SoCalKate*

      I’m late to respond, but I would echo what others have said. It isn’t a firm offer until you have passed the background check.

      I would also add that if they are inflexible about the start time (especially knowing that you have to move) that may point to a broader issue of the future boss not being accommodating in other areas.

  76. Rejected*

    I didn’t get a job offer, but I got an offer for something else.

    Well, the awesome job with the big company I was in the final running for went to someone else. But, the in-house recruiter says the team was impressed by my interviews, so she wants me to call her back with another position I might be interested in so that I can “get to the top of the pile”. It’s a well-known brand, so they get upwards of 1k applicants per job, in her words. So, the jump to the top could really help.

    Are recruiters and HR folks genuine when they give these kind of offers to final candidates, or is it just a general offer to ease the sting of rejection?

    You see, I’ve already applied for two jobs on the non-profit side that interest me, but there’s another on the for-profit end (the side I was interviewing for originally) that sounds amazing. The only issue is, while I have the experience and qualifications, my job titles were to the left of the actual position. I don’t want to call her back and seem like my next ask is out of the blue. What if I don’t even make the interview stage for it, that would likely be pretty embarrassing for both of us.

    What should I do? I need to move jobs by July, so I’m in a crunch with interviews and this is my top choice company.

    1. Mockingjay*

      Pursue it. You like them, they like you enough that they want to see if you’ll fit in somewhere. Ask for a phone screen for the new position and see if it will suit. I once got an offer in similar circumstances; interviewed for Position A, HR passed my resume to Position B manager as well and B made me an offer.

      1. Rejected*

        Did you have to tell them what job to pass it to, or did they already have something in mind? She told me there was a job earmarked soon that might be good, but to go ahead and call if there was anything else I was interested in. }

        Frankly, I’m already interviewing elsewhere, so I don’t know if I can wait for a job to come available and then put my name in the ring when I’m likely close to a few offers.

        1. Lilith*

          If you found a listing that you’re really interested in, I would just ask about it! My team recently interviewed someone that we decided wasn’t a good fit for the role we were hiring for but was a rockstar, and my team agreed that the company would be missing out if we didn’t hire her in whatever role fit her better.

  77. Circumstantially paid work*

    I have a question about doing activities that are unequivocally on the clock if you’re employed by a employer they benefit, but are also completed by individuals unpaid while not employed at an employer that benefits (or not employed at all). Are they permissible or forbidden during leave types where you are not allowed to work? I’m thinking of activities that are largely professional development opportunities for the employee rather than primarily producing a work product for the employer.

    As an example, Alice and Betty work together at BigOrg, and are writing a research paper together using data collected by BigOrg. They write this paper while on the clock, even if it necessitates overtime. Then, Alice leaves her job for a different employer. Betty still works on the paper on the clock, but Alice now works on it unpaid, outside of her work hours. Betty is about to go out on FMLA leave for a chunk of time. Is Betty forbidden from making progress with the paper while on leave?

    I’m sure there are a number of other examples, like attending a conference or training paid for by the employer, or speaking on a panel. Would love to hear how this is supposed to work, and what happens in practice!

    1. Raboot*

      Is this report a work product? If not, why is Alice allowed to work on it unpaid? If it isn’t, how are they allowed to use the org’s data?

      1. Circumstantially paid work*

        In this example, it’s a manuscript to publish in an academic research journal. People frequently remain involved as authors through to publication, even if they leave—as long as someone on the team is still at the employer with access to the data, those who have left can still contribute to any piece but new analysis (unless there’s also a data use agreement in place). As authors, they have the standing to review later drafts and provide edits, etc. If the other examples in the last paragraph are easier to digest, feel free to respond to those instead!

        1. Academic-in-Training*

          Writing manuscripts to be published in research journals seems to fall into a weird grey area in the definitions of academic work. Paper writing is related to your direct work product, and yes, you are expected to publish and can usually use work time to write, but papers also seem to be classified as being part of your “duty as a scholar” and almost a perk of employment (I don’t really agree with treating it as a perk considering it is work that benefits the employer, but that seems to be the prevailing attitude regardless—with research papers not earning the lab any money and instead costing the lab money to publish, value seems to come down to whose CV benefits from the extra line the most). That grey area is why it’s considered acceptable for an offboarded employee to work on the paper unpaid, or to write during leave. I’m writing a paper right now as first author, and it would be unheard of for me to report overtime for my evening writing outside of work hours even though I’m exempt and hourly, so I may also be in a different situation than yours.

          2. Pocket Mouse*

            Publishing is a weird grey area in academia. I’m not in academia (and writing papers is definitely on the clock while employed) but curious how the other examples I list would be handled in academia, and if you have a sense of how they’d be handled in other fields.

  78. relo*

    Anyone have advice on relocating to cities you’ve never seen before? I got a list of like 10 metro areas from a recruiter and might be picking between several of them depending on other details of the process (I’m interviewing for a set of jobs, and there are subtly different versions of the job available in different cities). I have never been to 5 of them, and have been in 3 of the others for less than 36 hours doing very specific exciting things like airport layovers. That’s too many for me to be able to visit all the options before having to pick one. For a couple of them, I don’t even know anyone who has lived in or ever been to the city.

    What kinds of things do I need to figure out to inform this decision? How do I find that information? Nb. I’m young, single, and childless, so don’t need to worry about family stuff.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Go to the tourist promotion boards for those cities and read a bunch of their stuff. I know moving there isn’t the same as going there on vacation, but they usually highlight many of the same things that make an area attractive. Especially if you’re young and single.

      Portland, Oregon has lots of outdoor recreation and breweries. Austin has a thriving music scene. Etc.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      What things are important to you? Cost of living? Public transportation? Good roads/lots of parking? Big city? Small city? Good hiking trails? An indoor rock gym? Lots of clubs? What do you like about the place where you live right now? What things do you like to do? Figure out what is most important to you, and then you can look up those specific things for each of the cities.

      – Cost of living: there are a couple of websites that do cost of living comparisons between cities, usually with a breakdown for housing/food/transportation costs. You can look up the COL in your current city too, to give yourself a benchmark.
      – Transit: search for “public transit” + [potential city name] for transit maps. You can also ask in city-specific subreddits or other forums if the public transit is useful, how much parking generally costs, how bad traffic usually is, etc.
      – Nightlife/recreation: like Alton Brown’s Evil Twin suggested, tourism promotion boards are a good place to start
      – For a general sense of “what does this city look like?” I like to go on google maps and plop myself down in street view in a bunch of different neighborhoods and ask “can I see myself living here?”

    3. Miel*

      What a fun decision!

      1: the money. Is the pay the same? Compare the cost of living.

      2: the work. Do some of the positions/ managers/ teams appeal to you more than others?

      3: where DO you want to live? Consider family/friends, climate, hobbies, transportation, social scene, demographics, housing, food, etc. Ask around your friends and family. See if you can talk to people who work at the different offices. Google “surfing in Duluth” “LGBTQ in Chicago” “birdwatching in Portland” etc.

      4. Different regions have different vibes. I understand that the east coast is rude and direct; the west coast is indirect and avoidant; the Midwest is outwardly friendly but will keep you at a distance. To overgeneralize :)

      Once you make the decision, see if your company will pay for you to visit for a couple days to meet the team and look at apartments.

      Good luck!

    4. fueled by coffee*

      Some useful information to have about new cities:
      -What is the cost of living in the neighborhoods you might want to live in? Will you need to (/are you willing to) live with roommates, or can you afford an apartment on your own? Are you willing to live in a studio or do you need a larger space? I’ve typically googled things like “where to live to commute to downtown CITY” and then looked up apartment listings.
      -Do you need a car or is transit reliable and easily accessible? If you *want* a car, is it easy to find apartments with parking, or will this be a hassle?
      -How easy is it to occasionally travel to visit the friends/family you do have in other places? Is there an airport nearby and/or would it be a reasonable drive or bus/train trip? (Not that you need to constantly visit family, but sometimes
      -If you have hobbies that are important to you, are those available in these cities? (If you’re an avid beach volleyball player, you probably don’t want to move to somewhere cold and landlocked. If you’re religious, is there a place of worship for your denomination?) Most of these are also google-able.
      -Are there differing political/legal situations in different places? At a low-level, this might be something superficial like whether or not weed is legal. But at a more serious level, if it’s important to you that there are, say, legal protections to prevent you from being fired for coming out, you might as well take that into consideration in your decision.

    5. Admin of Sys*

      Check out reddit subs for the locations – that can give you a feel for common complaints, some of the culture (as filtered through reddit, so ymmv), things folks in the area care about.

    6. Lady_Lessa*

      One thing for me was the library system. I’m spoiled in the Cleveland, OH area because I have access to libraries in 5 counties, and frequently one will have a copy of a book and/or CD that no one else has.

      I also was concerned about finding a place that would allow cats, being owned by them.

      Good Luck and have fun. I’ve done that a number of times.

  79. Amber Rose*

    I finally got my office and moved in… and I feel like a fraud. I don’t know why this feels like some weird status symbol that is just beyond me, but it does and I’m ridiculous. I love my big window. Maybe my plant will be happier.

    Anyways, Big Boss says the condition for moving to the second floor is eating my lunch downstairs. I usually eat at my desk while I work, but he says no, we need to not completely isolate ourselves from everyone else. That said, I’m still on the main floor an hour or two a day, looking at stuff, inspecting, and generally wandering around doing tasks. Shouldn’t that be good enough? Hardly anyone eats in the lunchroom, and I really rely on that quiet hour to read and wind down a bit.

    1. WellRed*

      Your boss is being weird but I would probably do it a few times to start and bring a book or something.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      I make it a point to eat in the cafeteria at least once per week (or did pre-COVID – will start again when more people are back) – it gives people an opportunity to approach me in a less formal setting and I often feel like I accomplish a lot during those “drive by” meetings. I will usually set it up to meet someone (not a direct report, but someone who would still allow me to appear to be approachable) so that I’m not sitting there by myself. I consider this hour to be on the clock, and may do the quiet hour to read and wind down afterward,

  80. Referrer*

    When you agree to be a reference for someone, are you actually agreeing to give a glowing, no-drawbacks report on them?

    I recently agreed to be a reference for “Jane”, a former coworker whom I briefly supervised. She’s a really talented and hardworking professional, but she could also be challenging to work with at times. In the reference call, I spoke glowingly about her work achievements, but also acknowledged one area she could improve in and one area she simply didn’t have much experience in. Overall though, my reference was extremely positive.

    Apparently she was a finalist but didn’t actually get the job. Now I’m wondering if I should have kept quiet about any challenges. If I agree to be a reference for someone, am I agreeing to say **only** good things about them?

    1. RagingADHD*

      No, you should be honest and realistic. If you can’t give an overall positive recommendation, you should decline to be a reference, but if you present a candidate as having zero weaknesses, you aren’t a credible reference anyway.

      OTOH, if you think the candidate believes you will be unequivocally glowing, or has a very mismatched impression of what you think of them, the fair thing to do would be to give them a heads-up about the pros and cons of using you as a reference.

  81. Mrs. Peel*

    I’ve been job-searching for the last while and it just struck me that one of the main reasons I find the process so mentally exhausting is because in order to tailor a resume and create a targeted cover letter I need to imagine all the details of myself in the new position: I have to picture what I would be wearing, where I might be working and how I might get myself there. What I might bring or eat for lunch and the conversations I might have with colleagues, the version of myself I might present, the holidays I may or may not be able to take the accidents or illnesses I may or may not be able to comfortably afford. And, of course, the work I would do, the things I could accomplish, the future it might be part of, and how all of my past experience could make all of this happen, plus the new things I might be able to learn.

    It’s like having to live an entirely new life each time I submit an application – no wonder it’s so exhausting!

    1. WellRed*

      I think you need to reframe how you approach job hunting if you need to go into this much mental gymnastics. Have you considered therapy?

      1. Mrs. Peel*

        That feels like a very snarky reply, not one that is meant to be helpful or constructive.

        2. PollyQ*

          Why? What’s snarky about suggesting that therapy might help? You seem to have some mental habits that aren’t serving you well, and dealing with those is exactly what therapy is for.

        3. Raboot*

          I don’t think that was snarky. “Consider therapy” isn’t generally an insult here. Of course it’s not advice you have to take in any case.

    2. Sir Ulrich Von Liechtenstein*

      That does sound exhausting.

      If you’re actively job hunting, it will probably help you to figure out how much of this exhausting process you can cut down, and the first step of knowing what to cut is knowing what is load-bearing and what is decorative.

      The next time you sit down for one of these exercises, it might help you to probe a bit after each bit of imagining and ask yourself, okay, what new inspiration toward my cover letter did I get from this? How did this clarify the stuff to prioritize and highlight on my resume? Is this a load-bearing mental exercise, or is this decorative?

    3. fueled by coffee*

      Of course doing this level of imagining is exhausting! Would it help to think of the application less as a commitment to this job, and more as an expression of interest? A metaphor: you don’t need to plan out the catering menu for the wedding before you go on a first date. Submitting a job application is like asking someone to grab drinks, not proposing. You want to have a general sense that they’re your “type” so you don’t waste your time, but you don’t need to know absolutely everything about your future life/career together to apply.

      In a cover letter, I’d try to do your best to put the pieces of this that are not relevant to the work to the side – your clothes, commute, meals, etc. are not necessary to include – just focus on your experience and why the new position would be a good fit. *IF* you move on to an interview, you’ll have ample time to look through the benefits package/ask about the dress code/google nearby takeout restaurants/etc.

  82. Reality Check*

    So I’m in Teapot Servicing, and my coworker Bob is in Teapot Sales. Our industry is highly regulated, specialized, and requires licensing and ongoing education. Salespeople are overwhelmingly men, service people almost entirely female. It is common in our industry for the service staff to be more educated & experienced than the sales people they are paired with and vice versa. This is to prevent mistakes. Anyway the issue I’m having is customers assuming I am Bob’s secretary. They will say to Bob, “Oh yes your secretary handled it” or whatever. I’m wondering if there is any way I can relieve my clients of that notion. First time it happened I burst out laughing. Afterwards not so much. Thoughts?

    1. UKDancer*

      I’d just say “I’m Bob’s counterpart in Servicing, not his secretary. It’s my pleasure to deal with this issue.” Don’t make a big thing of it, but politely correct them.

    2. fueled by coffee*

      Can you also ask Bob to politely correct customers/clients who do this?

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Bob was referring to you that way. Be sure to correct it (politely) every time. And if it is in e-mail or other written form, be sure Bob is on it too.

    4. Jules the First*

      I would laugh and reply – “I’m not Bob’s secretary…I’m your ongoing account lead and service manager and Bob is my sales rep, because he’s good with the people and I’m very good at the details.”

  83. Petrichor*

    What do y’all think about doing a phone screen for a job candidate you are almost sure you won’t hire?

    I am a member of a small team of teapot delivery coordinators. We have an opening for which we are currently accepting applications. Our manager, Sansa, is responsible for hiring, but my colleague Arya and I have a lot of input.

    We also work with a small group of part-timers who have teapot pickup responsibilities. One former part-timer, Wakeen, has applied for the opening.

    Wakeen excelled when his work was well-defined, and had great attention to detail and investment in doing a good job. However, he seemed to have trouble listening to Arya and me, and figuring things out without assistance was a challenge for him. He seemed unable to take what we taught him and apply it independently to even slightly different situations. The teapot delivery coordinators exercise a good deal of independent judgment. Arya and I don’t think he is a good fit for the role. If he were our only candidate, we would want to keep looking.

    I have mixed feelings about putting him through a phone screen when we know we won’t hire him. Arya, Sansa, and I talked about it and we are going ahead with it, partly because we’re connected to him, partly because we want to give him a chance – he might wow us, partly to give him some interviewing experience. Just curious about what others think.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      It’s good practice for him with interviews. It also gives him a chance to mention maybe he’s gained skills since he last worked with you or how he thinks he’d be able to adapt to the role. And a phone screen isn’t as arduous as a video or in person interview so it’s not a total time sink.

    2. kiki*

      How long has passed since Wakeen left? If it’s been a relatively short stretch of time, it may not be worth it because Wakeen likely hasn’t changed super dramatically in a matter of months. If it’s been over a year, people can make big, surprising changes in their maturity and capability.
      Regardless, I think it’s courteous to do a phone screen and keep the relationship positive, especially if you think Wakeen could be a good fit in his old role or some other role down the line.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Where I work we are required to screen everyone the same. It’s a good practice. As you note, he could have gained experience and wow you. And if not, you may also be able to use some of his answers to benchmark other applicants. And given that you know him, not interviewing will reflect badly on you, not him, particularly if your other part-timers hear about it.

  84. developer to product person?*

    I’m a software developer with 3+ years of experience and was thinking about making the pivot to product owner or product manager. I’m a solid developer, but not amazing. I like the work, but I don’t love it. What I do love, is communicating with clients, planning work, discussing things with my colleagues across departments. I’m a really strong communicator and can explain technical issues in a way just about anyone can understand without watering down the important technical points too much. In my free time, I’ve been reading a lot of books about product management and following newsletters from that sphere.
    My current workplace is disorganized– the founders are brilliant technically, but aren’t great on soft stuff– so I end up giving a lot of management advice that’s worked out well. I really enjoy doing this type work, but since it’s not part of my job description, I find myself scrambling to do all this work and actually develop. My mentors in the field tell me that the best way to find balance is to step back from all the extra stuff and focus on code, but to be honest I enjoy the extra stuff more.
    Has anyone else made the jump from development to product who can offer words of wisdom?

    1. Raboot*

      No words of wisdom, but a coworker switched to being my team’s PM once. They switched back to development after a little over a year because they decided they liked that better after all, but I thought they were doing a great job while they were the PM. So it can be done!

  85. DisneyChannelThis*

    Not a specific question – but just looking for support/sympathy for realizing that you’re *not* the best fit for the role you’re working. I hate job hunting. I’m dreading trying to transition out of this role. But I’m just not good enough, no matter what I do, the feedback is bad. And it’s not all my skills or lack thereof. It’s also a mismatch in management style and lack of direct supervisor issues (and no mentors even after a year here).

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Been there! It really sucks, but just remember that as much as job hunting sucks, being in a bad-fitting role (and possibly knowing you could be fired!) is even worse. If you’re not in danger of being let go anytime soon you at least have the comfort of applying for new jobs in a more thoughtful way, so hopefully you can really focus on roles that excite you and that may make it feel like less of a chore.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Read (or reread) this letter and update:
      “I suck at my job but am otherwise a delightful person” from July 30, 2018
      “update: I suck at my job but am otherwise a delightful person” from December 7, 2020

      You’ll probably be able to empathize with that letter writer. She got a happy ending and you might too!

      (links in a follow-up comment)

    3. Your local password resetter*

      Yeah, thats just miserable to go through every day.
      Job-hunting may be awful, but it’s also how you escape from this situation.
      Could it help if you imagine how much better the job you’re applying for would feel every day, and let that motivate you? I’ve found that concete stuff like “I won’t have to deal with X all day”, “when I do ABC I won’t have to fear failure every time” to be very uplifting when working up the energy to job-search.

  86. “That decision is Bein*

    How can I deal with a manager who doesn’t manage?

    I started a job a few months ago at a small organization. My department was recently restructured, and a mid-level management role was eliminated entirely, leaving only the department head with the ability to make decisions. The problem is that for a large project we’re working on, Manager can’t focus on the details because they’re dealing with 20+ other concerns/things that are only in his role and not ours. So for the actual management of this massive project, there is no project plan, no clear division of labor, no deadlines—unless we come up with them. I have tried to compensate by drafting plans/calendars/etc., which my teammates appreciate, and sort of quietly “managing” the project from behind (not giving orders, obviously, but making suggestions for how to divide tasks/what to focus on among our small group). That’s all fine, but none of us has the authority to make decisions, and our manager basically refuses to make them. They don’t like to get bogged down in what he sees as tiny details and we see as commitments that have to be made or else we lose out on certain opportunities. (E.g. do we travel to XY city before the project happens, who should go, when should go, and for what purpose? People make vacation plans—major travel can’t just happen on the spur of the moment!! And budgets are a thing, too, but they basically dismiss most budgetary concerns. also, we don’t have access to information about our department’s budget.) To top it off, most of us have only been here for a few months (including the manager) and the most “senior” person has been here for a year. We’re all very junior level staff as well apart from the manager.

    How can I survive this massive undertaking with no plan, a manager who talks around direct questions, and having to build relationships with partners and then have to flake on them because some new information comes down from higher up/my boss has a spur-of-the-moment idea that we spend weeks working on before it’s clear to them (it was to us from the beginning) that it’s not going to work? And this isn’t even getting into all the business about day-to-day managing of employees and Manager not even knowing what policies apply to us…..

    I feel like I’ve reached sort of a resignation/acceptance of all this and have been much calmer about it than I used to be, but sometimes it’s still difficult. Any advice would be appreciated.

    To be clear: Manager means well and is a genuinely nice human being (and also very intelligent/competent – just not experienced in our task areas). Sticks up for employees in a pinch and makes accommodations when we need them. Just does not manage well.

    1. “That decision is Being Made Above My Pay Grade”*

      Comment posted before I finished typing. My new mantra with this stuff/all the constant changes and craziness and plans being upended and etc. has been “that decision is being made above my pay grade.”

    2. Girasol*

      I’ve seen teams get rather formal about managing themselves as a peer group – regular status meetings, agreeing on who would do what when, and who would maintain a written plans and communicate with stakeholders, and so on – when the person officially in charge was not stepping up. I’ve seen groups work their way to the point where a management decision needs to be made, communicate the need for direction clearly, and then just stop, telling the stakeholders that they’re on hold for Wakeen to make a decision.

  87. Cookies for Breakfast*

    Social awkwardness question incoming!

    I found out recently, from a former colleague I’m in touch with, that the person my workload got reassigned to is leaving their role too. I haven’t pushed for details, and the ones I’ve been offered are bleak, as well as not surprising at all (the extra people promised long before I left were never hired, leadership refused to acknowledge that the work was too much for one person, burnout ensued).

    When I left, this person gave me a very thoughtful gift, which I’m 99% sure wasn’t company paid, and cost well over the price I’d expect one single person to cover. It was connected to an experience I was very keen to try, mentioned once in passing, and they kept in mind for months. I’ve now used it, and was planning to message them over the next few days to send some photos of the experience, which I thought they might appreciate. Also, to ask what they’ve been up to, which I’m genuinely interested about.

    I wasn’t intending to ask anything about work. I do the same with all ex-colleagues I keep in touch with, who are all people I enjoy catching up with socially now and then (also, not hearing continuously about the dysfunction I left behind is helping me tremendously with moving on). It’s true that, in conversation, some of them end up telling me about work anyway. But I realise that, if I message this person now, the timing might seem unfortunate. Writing anything that risks to sound like “hey, look at how well I’ve been doing!” is the last thing I want.

    What would you do in my place? Acknowledge that I heard they’re leaving, wish them good luck, then move to the personal message? Wait a few weeks, then only send the personal note as if I didn’t know the work news (which I only know because someone else told me), figuring it may be a better moment to hear from me? See if their LinkedIn updates any soon, and send a note that combines professional and personal then?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Message just about the personal stuff unless you think whoever told you about them leaving will have told the person they told you. Nothing worse than losing a job and feeling like everyone is talking about your behind your back lol.

      1. Cj*

        It says they are leaving their role, not that they lost their job, and I think which one it is makes a difference.

        If they are leaving volunteerily, maybe they are thrilled about it and have a way better job they’re going to. In that case I think it’s entirely appropriate send them the pictures, xcetera.

        If they were let go, yeah, then probably not the best time be contacting them.

  88. Shoulder to Cry On / Boss*

    I am having a crisis with one of my employees. I run a small office (2-4 staff members excluding me) and my most senior employee is having a personal crisis. In short, she’s going through a messy divorce and cries frequently. She accomplishes about 50% of the assigned tasks and the ones she does “complete” are frankly unacceptable. I’ve tried to talk to her about it, but she ends up crying about the latest update in the divorce for hours. I don’t want to be a jerk, but I really need her to do work. I end up doing her work in addition to my work and I am drowning. We have a good relationship that I want to preserve. This entire situation has gone too far. What should I do?

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Does she have PTO she can take while she deals with the situation? Or are you able to give her any additional leave given the circumstances? I know it’s a small office and so her absence will likely create holes, so make sure you’re either able to hire a temp into her role or figure out a plan for getting her tasks done (figure out what can go on the back burner and assign the rest as able), but ultimately it may be better for both of you to let her take the time she needs.

      1. Shoulder to Cry On / Boss*

        Honestly, it won’t be possible for her to take off more time. She’s taken a lot of time off already and without notice – I’ve been flexible and nice about it. I need her to pull herself together and get the job done. Due to our industry, it will take weeks to find someone to fill her role and we have a lot of projects in the next three weeks that she needs to do.

        Also, she is in the early stages of the divorce (paperwork hasn’t been filed yet).

        1. WellRed*

          If she’s early stages, it may get better, if that’s worrying you. (Course it could get worse).

    2. WellRed*

      You need to tell her to take some time off. I also recommend, when she starts crying, hand her a tissue and say something like “ do you need to take a minute to compose yourself” or “I can see you’re upset, let’s continue this conversation later.” It’s nit unkind but does call out the behavior.

      1. Shoulder to Cry On / Boss*

        thank you! I will try doing that the next time she wants to sit in my office for hours to vent about the divorce

    3. allathian*

      Does your organization have an EAP? If it does, you should probably provide her with their contact information. I also second that you aren’t the right audience for her crying sessions.

  89. Forkeater*

    Tips for resigning? I’ve been looking for a new job ever since layoffs were announced in late 2020. While I love my work and coworkers I have real concerns about the future of my institution. I don’t want to count my chickens before they hatch, but the boss I interviewed with this week at New Place openly expressed his intent to hire me. It would be an excellent career move in a direction I’m very interested in, as well as working remotely for more money! And the people seem great (and the work is exactly what I’m interested in and experienced in).

    So, presuming I get an offer, how to gently break the news to my boss? My boss is great but is truly burned out and has a big vacation coming up. Is it best to give notice before the vacation (and possibly stress them out when they should be relaxing) or wait till they come back?

    Any other tips?

    1. Fellow Worrier*

      I get that you’re worried about this, and this would be the type of thinking I do as well, but I think you’ll do yourself a favor if you table this concern until there is a job offer. An expression of interest does not guarantee an offer—nor do you know for sure if you will accept it before you see the actual terms. A lot could change between now and then, both at your org and with this job. And you’re seeing momentum now, but things could slow down with the hiring process, there might be some admin process in the way, etc.

      When the time comes, I would keep the following in mind:
      1) Stick to the facts. As this blog has repeatedly stressed, you are not being disloyal by leaving. You found an opportunity that works for you and you want to move on. That’s it. No hedging, no apologies necessary. “I’ve enjoyed my time here, and now I’m ready to take the next step in my career – I found this great opportunity that I’m excited about. My last day will be XY.”
      2) You don’t owe your workplace. You like your boss and feel responsible for adding to their stress, but ultimately that’s not something you can control. Give as much notice as you reasonably can (but not before you have an offer), do what you can to make the transition smooth, and then don’t look back.
      3) Don’t worry about the vacation yet. When the time comes, just tell your boss.
      4) If there are systemic problems/layoffs, it shouldn’t be shocking that you’re moving on. You do you.
      5) Depending on how reasonable people in your office are, you might get pushback/complaints. But don’t fall into the trap of feeling guilty about making career moves that work for you. Your workplace isn’t being “loyal” to its workers if they’re laying people off. It’s a business – so treat your resignation like a business transaction.

  90. Leave Me Alone*

    I need help figuring out how to survive my current job while I wait for an internal promotion to go through.

    Here’s the deal: I was told I was getting promoted and sent to a different team earlier this month, which I’m really excited about. Part of the reason I applied for the promotion was because I find the current work I do pretty dull and the way it is assigned (often last minute) frustrating. This new position will be higher level work where I have a greater say over my assignments.

    The problem: I’m stuck in my current job until an uncertain date. I was told both “until they found someone to take over the role” and “probably through May.” It’s been three weeks since I was informed of my promotion and while the raise has, thankfully, gone through, I’m still doing my old job.

    My questions:

    1. Any scripts for getting them to spell out just how much longer I’ll be in this role?
    2 Any tips on surviving work you hate when you know that work is coming to an end but can’t afford to burn bridges (every time my manager assigns me a last minute, pointless project, I want to tell him “no way, leave me alone” but internal transfer means we’ll still be working at the same company)….

    Please help me keep my sanity!

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve been in a similar situation – having to report to a manager I did not want to work for, waiting on a promised transfer to a different manager without a defined end date. It was really frustrating, I feel for you!

      Since you’ve been told someone will (eventually) backfill your position, ask your current manager what you need to do to prepare to transition stuff to that person and what kind of timeframe you should plan for. Documenting, wrapping up shorter term projects, whatever, will depend on whether it’s a week or a month. For each new last minute project, ask if this is something that can wait til the next person (because you’re busy wrapping up) or if you should get it started but expect to leave it in a good place for the next person. But it might help your mindset to be very clear that you are finishing up, not continuing on indefinitely.

  91. Dragonfly7*

    Folks who live in the flight path of airports or military bases and work from home, how do you successfully take phone and video calls with customers with minimal sound interference, if you can at all? My situation is exacerbated by living in an apartment where I can’t hang things on the wall beyond “a few small nail holes” and nothing sticky, so my sound dampening options are limited.
    I would actually strongly prefer to work onsite, but gas prices are starting to limit my range.

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Are you sure people in calls can hear the airplanes? I live on the same street as a fire station and I’ve had fire engines race by with sirens blaring while the people I’m on calls with say they can’t hear anything.

      1. Dragonfly7*

        I haven’t had anyone comment, so I suppose I should test it, although no one’s been online with me during the airplanes, just other outside noise. Thanks for the suggestion!

        1. DisneyChannelThis*

          I only know because I actually had the reverse problem to you. We had 3 people sitting around my laptop and my laptop (lenovo) had a default pickup only sound right in front of it setting! Didn’t figure out how to set it to wider until after, ended up rotating the laptop like crazy. Some mics are designed specifically for narrow range input, some the reverse. I think call center style headset mics are usually designed to be isolating on pickup.

          Also try zoom calling a friend and see if they can hear the stuff. You may already be good.

      2. Nicki Name*

        This! My Jabra headset has screened out all sorts of noise over the years, from cats to home renovations.

        Check if your company will let you expense the cost of one, though, because high-quality microphones/headsets are expensive.

    3. UKDancer*

      I live under the flight path of a major airport and I don’t think people can hear the planes over zoom. I mean I can hear it (but I am so used to it I tune it out). I use headphones with a microphone for zoom and teams calls but that’s more because my neighbours are a bit noisy so I want to reduce the chance of background noise but I’m more concerned about the nieghbours than the planes.

    4. Dragonfly7*

      I appreciate all the replies here! I am job-hunting and have been limiting myself to onsite-only positions, but several of the help desk / customer service roles I am focusing on are available remotely. Thank you for the hope for expanding my options.

    5. Other Duties As Assigned*

      Seconding the notion to find a microphone with a highly-directional pickup pattern.

      Also, when I was working in radio broadcasting, we were outfitting a remote studio in an historic building–so no glued wall treatments, nail holes, etc. However, the room sounded acoustically like the inside of a metal washtub. Our neat hack was to get some burlap-covered office wall dividers to place around the perimeter of the room. The covering worked amazingly well to make the room sound good, the panel coverings by design met fire ratings and they doubled as bulletin boards. Perhaps one or two of these would help blunt outside noise.

  92. Mercie*

    Does anyone have advice on switching to being less effusive in emails? When I started I signed most of my emails “Thank you!” because the majority of my coworkers/all my trainers do that and I felt rude not reflecting it. At this point it’s my normal (internal) sign off so I’m worried if I suddenly switch to something like “All the best,” or “Kind regards,” (which is my sign off for external emails) it’ll be interpreted as rude. I have two bosses who will request tasks from me via email and it feels odd to write “Thank you!” when it’s me letting them know I’ve done a task for them.

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Honestly, with my direct teammates I don’t even add a sign off, I just end it with my name (sometimes not even that). My MO otherwise is if I’m asking something of the person I end with a “Thanks” of some sort, but if I’m responding to something they requested of me I end with a “All the best”.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Any chance you can check in with your boss or another colleague that’s been around for a while? It’s super easy to say “oh yea that’s no big deal”, but the truth is is that some organizations are weird about sign-offs, and depending on the culture it could be a nothing burger or you might suddenly start getting complaints. I know I was told early on in my current position that people were finding my correspondence too gruff and impersonal, and that I should try and work on my tone. I changed literally nothing but my sign off from “Thank you” to “Thanks!” and I was suddenly told my communication had much improved and was great. So it can’t hurt to get an opinion from someone who works at your company, they’ll be able to offer more practical advice for your specific situation.

    4. ecnaseener*

      Thanks, is already much less effusive than Thanks! and IMO is not parsed as a genuine thank-you. It’s fine for submitting work to your boss. But I do sometimes switch to Best, and if you want to keep a warm tone then Warmly is fine too.

    5. Purple Cat*

      I think you’re way overthinking this. I know I passive-agressively switch from ‘Thanks!” to “Thanks.” When I’m annoyed with someone and they absolutely positively do.not.notice.

      Thanks (comma) is totally acceptable and neutral. Many people in my org have the closing as part of their signature so people know it’s not REALLY a personal sentiment of any kind. A coworker I dislike for a million reasons has theirs “Thank you with warm regards”. Which is a bit much.

  93. Referrer*

    When you agree to be a reference for someone, are you actually agreeing to give a glowing, no-drawbacks report on them?

    I recently agreed to be a reference for “Jane”, a former coworker whom I briefly supervised. She’s a really talented and hardworking professional, but she could also be challenging to work with at times. In the reference call, I spoke glowingly about her work achievements, but also acknowledged one area she could improve in and one area she simply didn’t have much experience in. Overall though, my reference was extremely positive.

    Apparently she was a finalist but didn’t actually get the job. Now I’m wondering if I should have kept quiet about any challenges. If I agree to be a reference for someone, am I agreeing to say only good things about them and not mention any weaknesses?

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      I think it’s fine to be candid about weaknesses, but I would only agree to be a reference if I felt overall that this person would be good in the role. Everyone has weaknesses, but it’s more about if those weaknesses will affect their ability to do the job at hand, as well as what steps you know they take to combat those weaknesses.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yep, it sounds like OP was on the right track (a lot of reference calls will explicitly ask for you to think of something they need to work on most or whatever, so you probably couldn’t give an entirely glowing 100% positive reference if you wanted to) but if your more like 50/50 I would probably decline to give a reference. In general people list their best references so if one is on the fence it makes you think the person must be *really* terrible. I think it’s easy to “damn with faint praise” too, if you’re the person they’ve chosen to list and you’re not pretty positive.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Generally yes. There’s a weird line between trusting the feedback honesty level more if it includes some areas for improvement – and trying to read between the line that minor issue bad actually means we dont want to badmouth candidate but they are a terrible employee. I wouldn’t feel guilty. She may have not gotten the job for reasons that had nothing to do with what you said – the other candidate may have said a lower salary range or been super amazing or could start sooner, or be a better fit to the role, etc.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      No, it’s your job to be honest about things, including nuance. You don’t have to be 100% positive with no mentions of anything negative. In fact, if the reference-checking system is to have any worth at all, it relies on the checker doing their due diligence to ask specific probing questions and the references themselves to be honest about both how amazing the employee was and what drawbacks there are (even if small ones) for hiring that employee.

      That said, you don’t know that Jane didn’t get the job because of what you said. It could have been anything, really.

  94. Casper Lives*

    I’m not sure if anyone remembers my comment from a month ago. A coworker got a promotion with the same experience level as me. As in, we graduated from law school together and worked the same amount of time after. My boss had no issues with my work. She said she would work on getting me the same promotion.

    She came through!! I got the promotion with a paycheck backdate. It’s a good story. One of the reasons I like working here is my bosses advocate for their employees and are open with constructive criticism.

  95. I Wish My Job Was Tables*

    Will it look bad to leave my job to work for myself?

    I’ve been in my current position for four years. In the last few months, the job has become a chaotic mess as the company expands its reach without hiring staff (we’ve lost 50% of our staff and there are no plans to replace them). I’ve been interested in curating an art exhibition for a while and have even sketched out a business plan for this. My plan is to work at temp jobs while I try and do my own curator work. However, I’m worried this will look bad or lazy on my resume. Is it bad to leave a job when the only work you have lined up is temping and working for yourself?

    1. Sloanicota*

      I hope not! This is what I did. I do think there’s a bit of a stigma next time you’re job searching because people who have been unemployed sometimes list the gap on their resume as “self-employed” or freelance. I can’t really blame them since there’s a stigma against employment gaps, but it makes it awkward to have quit a job to pursue a legitimate business of my own. I may also be overthinking it. I think what can help is 1) ensure a good reference from your last boss – so it’s clear you weren’t laid off or fired 2) try to capture a list of impressive accomplishments and clients through your self employment that you can list on a resume and demonstrate it was legit (“served over 100 clients in X or Y” or something). Another thing I’ve done is take a part-time job in the year or two before I’m considering re-entry into the normal job market.

    2. RagingADHD*

      No, people start businesses or start freelancing all the time. Sometimes they stay with it permanently, sometimes it’s just for a while before they go back full time.

    3. justabot*

      No… but think about setting up your official LLC…. that way on your resume, you can still list your LLC as your most recent experience if you do decide to go back into the corporate world, etc.

  96. Eliza C*

    I have a coworker (male) in my department who falsley accused me (female) of inappropriate behavior towards him at a work party in a work message. Once I was aware of the messages and obtained screenshots of them, I brought them to both my manager and the HR department. This happened about a month ago.

    This coworker has a history of sexist behavior that has really escalated this past year. For context, even before this incident, I and another female coworker were made exempt from working directly with him. And for a small department of about 20 people, that’s really telling.

    However, as far as I know, nothing has been done about it. I’m not even sure if HR has opened an investigation yet, though they said they would.

    I have told my manager that if nothing is done then I’m leaving the company. The only reason I’m not more aggressively searching at the moment is because I’m up for a promotion and, outside of this, really enjoy my job culture and my coworkers.

    What should I do? I’m thinking about going to HR and asking about the issue on Monday, but I’m not sure what to say. Or if anyone has any advice on what to expect from this investigation that would be really helpful as well.

    Thanks!

      1. Eliza C*

        I haven’t. Out of curiosity, how do you think a lawyer could help this situation? I probably will if they don’t do anything about it, but I currently don’t have the funds for an employment lawyer, and I’m not sure how to find someone who offers free consultations.

        1. irene adler*

          Look online for the local American Bar Association web site. They generally offer a lawyer referral service. Also, the offer either a free or nominal cost ($50) consultation- generally 30 minutes. No obligation to retain the attorney after the consultation. During that 30 minutes, they can listen to your situation, tell you what your options are and whether you might want to hire an attorney given the situation.

        2. Observer*

          It sounds like this person has a pattern of problematic behavior that is so obvious that management has already had to take action on this. Which means that any complaint of this nature really, really needs to be acted on ASAP. A lawyer’s letter – or an inquiry from the DOL / EEOC (or your state analogue) might make them wake up and take action.

    2. Eliza C*

      I should also add that to my knowledge, he only sent the message to one coworker of ours. And just to give you an idea of how bad this guys judgement is, that coworker and I are really close college friends. I’m not really worried about him spreading it around since it’ll look worse on him than on me, and I’ve informed several trusted coworkers on what has happened as well. I’m just uncomfortable being around him now.

    3. Bagpuss*

      I would also go back to HR (perhaps via email so there is a paper trail)
      Saying something like
      “I am contacting you regarding my report made to you on [date] regarding [name’s] inappropriate behaviour.
      You indicated then that you were initiating a formal investigation but have heard nothing further. Please can you confirm the current position and timescale for the investigation to be completed”

  97. LikelyPickle*

    A few weeks ago my company had layoffs which included my very wonderful manager. I’ve been moved to a team with similar roles to mine that is being managed by someone with a lower title than me (who happens to have a father on the board). It feels like a slap in the face to now be managed by someone lower in the very clear company hierarchy. It reeks of sexism or nepotism or both.

    Friends/spouse/coworkers say I need to say something to HR or the powers that be, but I really don’t know what the point is because I can’t envision a desirable outcome. Someone joked that our company is likely to double promote this man to put his title above mine as fix, and that sounds plausible from how I’ve seen them operate.

    Any advice on what to do…besides just leave? I’ve talked with a VP I’m close with about this, but I’m not sure how much power she has to exact change in a team she doesn’t oversee.

    1. A nona moose*

      I think it’s unfair but I don’t see that there’s anything legally wrong with what they did. If new manager is a pompous jerk, start looking for work elsewhere.

  98. anon for this*

    My 401k vesting date is July 31 or Aug 1 (the docs aren’t 100% clear). If I turn in my resignation Aug 1, and my last day is Aug 12, they can’t try to do a clawback, right?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I would hope not, but if there’s no pressing urgency to leave, are you able to delay giving notice? The worry wart/pessimist in me gets nervous about the vesting date and your notice date being so close.

      1. anon for this*

        No, I have an offer and they’re being flexible about start date already, and also this place is dysfunctional and it’s stressing me out.

      2. the cat's ass*

        Agreed. Waited a full 60 days after i vested because they were…not great. Longest 60 days of my LIFE, but ultimately worth it.

    2. A nona moose*

      I am not a lawyer and would have to look at the exact working of everything. Can you turn in your leave on August 2 and leave August 13?

  99. sassafras*

    Did a phone screen that (unexpectedly) asked me about compensation – it seemed too awkward to dodge completely so I gave a range. I’d be happy with anything in that range but now I’m afraid I lowballed myself. I did hedge that I was interested in learning more about the role and about other jobs so I thiiiink I would be clear to ask for more later, but I still feel like an idiot. Sigh. Why is salary negotiation like this?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      You haven’t completely shot yourself in the foot! Alison has lots of advice on this in the archives, but it’s easy enough to say “now that I’ve learned more about the position and its responsibilities, a salary closer to X is what I’m looking for for this role”.

      1. sassafras*

        Thanks for the reassurance. Honestly I was just so caught off guard by the question in what I assumed was a just weed-out-the-crazies conversation that I forgot all of Alison’s advice on everything! Guess the lesson from this is that Constant Vigilance! about salary questions is required during the *entire* interview process.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      FWIW, our phone screens routinely ask about compensation. We don’t just do them to weed out the “crazies,” but to weed out anyone who doesn’t really understand the nature of the job they’ve applied for, and anyone whose salary requirements or other requirements are out of line with what we can offer (think fully remote work for a position that needs some time in the office).

  100. A Feast of Fools*

    Can I get input from people who have traveled overseas with co-workers for at least two weeks?

    Four of us (manager, me, two staff) have been assigned to a project that would go smoother if we traveled to the location that is the focus of the project. It’s a 9-hour one-way flight; there will only be one rental car; and though we’ll be in a tourist-destination country, the place we’ll be working at is in a manufacturing / warehouse / farming area (i.e., *not* anywhere that tourists go).

    We don’t have to go for all two weeks. Each of us can decide for ourselves to go and for how long.

    I know for sure the two staff will go for both weeks because they’re in their 20’s and work travel is still fun and exciting. My manager is in his late 40’s and doesn’t want to leave his wife and special-needs kid for that long. I’m in my 50’s and also have commitments at home.

    But I’ve never been overseas. And I’ll get to do *some* sight-seeing at least during the weekend in the middle of the two weeks. And if I can get trustworthy coverage for my home commitments (pets and elderly family member), I could extend my stay on either end of the work weeks.

    I don’t do well with “the unknown” so I’m hoping to hear stories — good, bad, or indifferent — from people who have done this kind of extended work travel, and maybe what you did to make it less onerous and more fun.

    Bonus points if you’re older and/or have health issues that limit your energy. [My younger friends are all, “You’ll work by day and sightsee in the evenings and at night!” But I’ll be decompressing and *sleeping* in the evenings and at night. My wakeup time will be 5:30 AM, which means I’ll need to be in bed asleep by 9:00 PM at a minimum.]

    1. WellRed*

      I haven’t done such a lengthy trip but I never regret taking time to explore or visit a museum etc (I research ahead of time like I would for a personal trip). Be willing to rent your own car for a personal excursion, be willing to protect your downtime, be willing to say yes or no to coworkers. I think that last bit is hardest for people but you’ll be happier and less resentful for it. I’m 50, with type 1 diabetes so I occasionally just need a break or to stand up for myself if I need to eat at a different time or whatever.

    2. school of hard knowcs*

      After way too many trips of airplanes, hotel rooms and conference rooms, I made a new choice. I always add a day before or after on any trip (even a 2 day trip). Even in non-tourist areas, you can find interesting things to see and do. I flew to Seattle for a 2 day trip, spent the weekend on Vancouver island. It was great. I was in a small town in the middle of nowhere and the local employees took me local live theater. Two different trips, 2 different states, I went to where my ancestors came from. Another trip, flew threw big hub and spent the weekend with my cousins on the way back. Keep in mind, you are doing this for enjoyment.

      1. A Feast of Fools*

        I’ve traveled a ton for business but never for this long. I have always, always flown in a day or so early when I could.

        It’s different now that the work part of the trip will take up half a month, if I do the full thing.

        And I’m not doing this for the enjoyment, I’m doing it for work. It’s not a paid vacation.

        1. crazy tuesday*

          I’m confused: you talk about extending your trip either side of the two weeks, but “it’s not a paid vacation”. Presumably the extension *is* a vacation? If you’re going to be tired and not sight-see at night, I’d suggested bringing books, or a hobby that quietens you down that’s portable( knitting or embroidery), that you can do in your room in the evenings. Does the location -away from the tourist spots – have something redeeming? Like, could you take a sea-side walk at night, even though the beaches aren’t great? Would it be warm enough to sit outside with take-out and enjoy the smell of tropical plants, even just in a park? If you’ve never been to a different country, doing “normal” things somewhere else is fun – eg grocery shopping (even if you buy nothing), is generally quite different in different countries.

          1. A Feast of Fools*

            It was a response to “Keep in mind, you are doing this for your enjoyment.”

            I was hoping for stories from people who traveled overseas for at least two weeks with coworkers, to help me envision it and to help take it out “the unknown” category.

            Yes, I get that the few non-travel days before or after would be for my enjoyment but that’s not what’s concerning me.

            Obviously, I’m not expressing/explaining myself very well.

            1. WellRed*

              I think you are explaining it fine. As I said in my comment I haven’t done two weeks of travel (so maybe I shouldn’t have responded) but I tried to address what I thought were some of your concerns using my personal methods and I didn’t think one week vs two would be a completely different scenario.

    3. Eyes Kiwami*

      I haven’t traveled for two weeks, but I have done international business trips with coworkers and been more tired at the end of the day than others (not due to age, just due to individual differences). I don’t think there is anything wrong with decompressing at night–business trips are stressful! You’re in a new environment, with different people, you don’t know where things are, you’re often required to keep up with stuff at home too, and there are soooo many meetings (because that’s the point of going, right?) so you don’t get a lot of down/alone time. It’s also harder to keep to a usual routine with eating and exercise.

      But international travel is amazing, so I do highly recommend you take some extra time with the trip so you CAN see the sights. I don’t think most people “sightsee” in the evenings, maybe there’s a team building dinner but you don’t normally party on weeknights at home, do you? (Maybe your younger friends do) Having the extra vacation time lets you do that sightseeing without taking your focus from work or running you ragged.

      To make it more fun, I recommend:
      -a pageturner book/beach read/something to look forward to in your downtime or jetlagged insomnia time
      -bring some athletic wear and make sure to sweat each day even if it’s just squats in your hotel room or a walk outside, this reduces stress by a lot and is a great way to cope with jetlag
      -Icyhot or hot/cold compresses are great for neck strain from too much desk work, back strain from lugging a heavy backpack through an airport, or leg soreness from walking everywhere. Also a hot/cold eye mask or face sheet mask can be soothing.
      -an out-of-office message that indicates to everyone back home you’re away and recalibrates expectations for your responsiveness
      -knitting or fidget cube or phone game (just watch your battery) or equivalent for car rides and waiting for car rides and waiting for other people to get ready for car rides
      -a ton of patience. Just be really patient with yourself and everybody around you. Expect to be out of your element and try to float above the little bumps in the road, it will frustrate and tire you less.

  101. ExecAsst*

    Any other executive assistants out there who have dealt with getting a new boss and can share their experience? Mine just announced they’re leaving and it’s making me a little nervous, especially considering I’ve only been here about half a year. The fact that we mesh well is a big factor in what made me take this job/why I’ve stuck it out during some rough times early on. It also doesn’t seem like I’ll be included in any of the search process (not that I’m saying I should have decision-making power, but considering I’m going to be their personal assistant and working extremely close with them every day, I was expecting to be somewhat involved).

    1. RagingADHD*

      I was never involved in any way, no. That is not standard at all for an exec and EA pairing. More the other way around, that after they started, I was to some extent “auditioning” to see if they wanted to keep me.

      To make the transition smooth and create a new positive mesh, I’d advise being very clear and up front about saying, “This is how we have done things in the past and it worked well for (institutional reasons), what are your preferences?”

  102. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    Has anyone experienced being ghosted after multiple rounds of interviews? I was a final candidate for a position – I did four rounds of interviews, including one where I gave a whole presentation, and then…nothing. I haven’t heard a peep and my final interview was almost three weeks ago. This position is decently senior level, and the company and role’s entire focus is on improving hiring practices and career access, so it’s a little wild that they’d ghost.

    I emailed the recruiter last week to “check in” but still nothing. At this point I know I obviously wasn’t selected, but is there anything else I can or should do? Should I contact the hiring manager to let them know I’ve been waiting to hear from the recruiter? I feel like if there was a ball dropped they should know, since their whole thing is hiring and job seekers. I had such fantastic rapport with the recruiter and leaders I met with, so this just feels so odd.

    1. Caroline*

      I’ve gotten ghosted at all stages of job hunting (after being asked to schedule an interview, after doing a phone screen, after doing the initial interview, after doing a second interview, after giving references, etc.). A lot of times they’ll give me a date they’ll get back to me by (without me even asking), and then I never hear from them. I’ve not heard back after waiting a few weeks and following up either.

      I just expect to not hear back from employers and act accordingly now.

    2. PollyQ*

      First, based on many, many letters and comments on AAM, it’s incredibly common, so try not to take it personally. Second, what’s also common is that hiring takes much longer than employers say or think, and given that, 3 weeks isn’t that long a time. But I’d take Alison’s basic advice to assume to didn’t get the job and move on, and then if they do get back to you, it’ll be a pleasant surprise.

  103. k12 teacher*

    I’m teaching an all-day, week-long mini course on Life Skills for 11th and 12th grade students. Does anyone have any recommendations for online interactives/interactive activities/fun resources (besides of course the awesomeness of AAM itself) for helping students understand any of these topics:

    – Their rights at work and what to do if those rights are violated
    – Job interview practice
    – Professional norms
    – Having conversations with your boss
    – Practice making professional phone calls

    1. k12 teacher*

      I have lots of ideas but am normally a biology teacher, so figured getting some outside inspiration would be helpful. : D

      1. Girasol*

        I wish someone had done that for our class! I would have benefited from a word on communicating with managers. The first sentence should say what the employee wants the manager to do, and be followed by a very few short sentences in simple English explaining why. I used to email managers using the same style I would in a term paper or an essay question, fluffing it out with lots of explanations and filling it with the biggest vocabulary I could manage. I thought I was making a good impression but I was really so annoying.

    2. In Libraries Too*

      Hiring Librarians (https://hiringlibrarians.com/) has interviews with people who hire in the library field. The site was dormant for a while, but recently new content has been going up. Some of the interviews are library-specific, but some are things like “what’s the hiring process at your organization look like” or “what should candidates ask in job interviews” and then readers can compare, say, a large public university library response to a small, rural public library.

      For a class project, you could assign one of the interview topics that you think are universally relevant and ask students to note similarities between responses and then have a class discussion on what the underlying principle might be (e.g. most interviewee responses will have the common thread that the candidate should ask questions to find out if this is work culture they would like, even if the specific suggested questions are different).

      Also, librarians are a generally helpful bunch who like sharing their experiences and opinions, so if you reached out to one of the featured librarians, you might get someone or a panel to do a Zoom session and answer student questions.

    3. the cat's ass*

      sounds pretty comprehensive already; maybe add in resume writing and cover letters? Tho i don’t expect that would be immediately useful!

    4. Another teacher*

      Ask your special education related service providers, such as the speech-language pathologist, school psychologist, or school work study coordinator – whoever runs social skills groups in your school during the school year. They probably have tons of resources! Good luck – sounds like a fun course!

    5. Other Duties As Assigned*

      I can offer one addition based on my years of being the internship coordinator for my university department. Companies loved our students, but I had a complaint happen often enough that I started including it in the pre-internship prep session. Be sure to teach them how to ANSWER a phone in a professional setting.

      I’d also suggest a mention on handling regular pay (direct deposit, checking one’s pay stub, etc.)

    6. PollyQ*

      Taxes and other payroll deductions. Many’s the first-time employee who was greatly dismayed to see how much of their first paycheck was taken off the top.

    7. CakeDonut*

      For interview practice, I might have them record answers to questions (Flipgrid would be an easy website to do this) and then critique themselves (filler words, answering the question, looking straight ahead, etc). Speed dating (the set up with 2 circles/lines) to ask/answer questions could be good in person.
      Also, I know in grad school I watched videos of workplace interactions–I don’t remember the source (YouTube videos of some kind) but I think it would likely be helpful to watch short scenes and then break down what was good v what could be improved. IMO kids love being experts/giving feedback to others (the shady side of me says it plays into their natural judgmental nature). Even clips from movies/shows–The Office, The West Wing, etc–could be a good entry point.

    8. Maiden of the Spear*

      Wish you the best of luck and success with your course for the upcoming grads! I don’t have anything to add, these all sound like worthy topics.

      I wish colleges would also teach this to their upcoming grads from 2 and 4 year degree programs; I once had to remind a recent baccalaureate grad that on a fire line with live fire her hairbrush and the maintenance of her hair did not take precedent over her assigned vigilance of ensuring that no fire crossed the fire lines, also that if you see fire over the line you should put it out not take selfies with it.

      Sorry, I’m being cantankerous; actually all of the below are not novel behavioral faux-pas, I think young people have been doing these things since the dawn of time!

      If you could highlight to them that they should not be on their phones constantly at work that may prove beneficial to their coworkers in the long run. Also they should be aware that attempting to rate their managers, co-workers or clients via the “vibe test” may not be the best way to operate; especially if the “vibe test” is to gain the response that their usage of controlled substances which are federally illegal are accepted as what ever the kid equivalent for “cool” is nowadays. Attending to customers at their place of employment is of higher importance than finishing the Tik Tok challenge. And that their parents cannot excuse them from having to go for routine drug testing, even if they are still on their parents’ health insurance plan. Also, once they become legal adults and have graduated from high school, they might not want to consistently flirt with and/ or date their underage coworkers, especially if they are slightly above said co-workers in the reporting structure at their workplace.

  104. Caroline*

    Sorry if this doesn’t make sense. I feel stupid.

    I’m confused and frustrated about my boss seeming to favor my coworker.

    My boss has been training my coworker (Fran) and I on various tasks. Some of the tasks are complicated and require many steps, and I end up needing to ask my boss questions to clarify something or ask about something she didn’t include in the training when it’s time for me to actually do it.

    Often, her response will be, “We already had a training session on this. Didn’t you take notes?” And of course I have tons of notes, but I’m not the kind of person who instantly knows everything about a task from watching someone else do it once over a virtual meeting (we work from home). I learn by taking a lot of notes and then actually doing the task. So I have to say, “I don’t have notes on this specific thing. I don’t remember it being mentioned.” And then I get some sort of vague response and have to figure it out.

    She makes it seems like I’m not supposed to ask questions, but if I try to figure out something I’m unsure about on my own and end up doing it wrong, then my boss scolds me for not asking questions.

    If Fran asks questions, the response is, “That’s a good question! :)” or a detailed answer.

    There was a complicated task I had to do for the first time last week, and got the usual “We already went over this” response when I asked a question. It was Fran’s turn to do the task today, and she had no idea what to do at all because she thought the training was confusing. She asked for my notes and needed me to walk her through doing the entire task and then check it for her. Which I don’t mind, but if I’d had no idea how to do it last week, I imagine my boss would have been mad since, you know, we had a training session on it.

    Has anyone else been in a similar situation?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Have you noticed any difference between the questions you and Fran ask, or the way you frame them? Some trainers respond much better to questions asked the “right” way, which is partly their personal preference – some will prefer you get straight to the point, others want you to explain your thinking a bit more.

      I suspect your boss is in the latter camp, since she always wants to know why you don’t already have the answer. If Fran frames her questions as “I know we do X and Y in similar situations – is this the same or does Z change things?” where you would just say “do we do X and Y now?” then it could help to try that change. Insert any other pattern you might see to what and how Fran asks.

    2. ferrina*

      ecnaseener’s advice is good. If there isn’t much of a difference between how you and Fran communicate and your boss just is having a weird reaction to you, here’s what I’d do:
      1. Find someone else to ask. Is there an SME, trainer, coworker or even Fran that you can ask?
      2. Have Fran ask your boss or go to your boss together. So if you have a question, go to Fran, and when Fran doesn’t know, say “Let’s go ask Boss. That way both of us will get to have our questions answered at the same time!”

    3. Everything Bagel*

      Maybe next time you should ask Fran first if she has any notes on the thing you don’t know how to do. If she says no, you can ask your manager about it and say, “This wasn’t included in the training. Fran and I both don’t have any notes on this.” See how that goes over.

    4. Academic-in-Training*

      Everyone here has great advice. As someone who has had to navigate a very similar situation several times with a couple coworkers, I’d also say that it’s great you want to help Fran when she’s confused or when directions are unclear, but encourage Fran to also reach out to your boss to mention where she was confused and confirm what she did to fill the gaps. Otherwise, you’ve done all this troubleshooting work to help Fran, while your boss gets the impression that Fran didn’t need to double-check anything because she never reached out with questions. At least, that’s the result if Fran did the job perfectly following the pieced-together protocol. If your boss checks in on Fran’s work later and her solutions based on your notes were wrong, you could still end up being the scapegoat who gave Fran wrong directions. (To be clear, your boss shouldn’t take that approach, but not all bosses are reasonable.) It sounds like three things could be the case: 1) Fran has figured out the way to approach asking questions of your boss how your boss personally prefers it, 2) your boss is responding to questions based on assumptions of Fran’s and your work quality, or 3) Fran has figured out how to avoid needing to ask questions that might upset your boss by relying on your resources and experience (sometimes gained by asking the questions that upset your boss). Option 2 is hard for you to control or change. Option 3 sounds manipulative and you don’t want to assume it of your coworker because that would be in bad faith… but I have had it happen in a similar scenario, and it helped me figure out how to avoid letting my coworker use me as his fall-guy to create an Option 2 situation.

  105. Project Management*

    Project Management course recommendations? I’m a subject matter expert in a technical field seeking to improve my project management skills. I wasn’t necessarily planning to pursue PMP cert, but open to opinions on this. Thanks!

    1. Girasol*

      The Rita Mulcahy guide to preparing for the PMP exam is full of really practical information, not just test prep. It’s useful to read and keep handy even if you don’t want to go all-out PMP.

  106. Murmuring*

    What strategies do you use to increase staff satisfaction when many are fired up over “Antiwork”-types of ideas? How do you address expectations that are not likely to be met in many jobs?
    For context, Antiwork is a subReddit in which posters advocate for reforms for workers; some are very reasonable and some are very unlikely. I work at a small privately owned business with less than 40 employees. Many of our employees are in their 20s and this is their first real job. We care about them and want them to be happy and successful. Some complaints I have received as a manager:
    *It is totally unfair to have to use PTO when they call out sick (but Covid negative). Sick days should be unlimited.
    *Health insurance should be free and also available free to part time staff
    *We should be closed on all Federal holidays and their rights are violated if we are not (we do get Memorial Day, 4th of July, etc. but not lesser holidays like Veteran’s Day).

    I am starting to feel as frustrated as they are! Please help me provide kind responses to these complaints.

    1. Doctors Whom*

      In response to the health insurance one, I’d say that while you’d love to see health insurance at $0 premium cost for employees, that would mean losing access to other benefits (401k matches, whatever). (I agree, health insurance should be free! But I also think health insurance tied to employers is stupid.) This is the only one I’d entertain specifically because health insurance is probably the most expensive part of your benefits package and most employees who are at their first real job have NO clue what companies actually spend on these benefits before the employee cost share on the premium.

      For the other kinds of questions – “The company makes decisions every year about the best way to use the budget we have for employee benefits. There are a lot of tradeoffs and I think we do the best we can to create a compelling benefit package for employees with many different kinds of needs. I can forward your idea for consideration in the future.” If you have benchmarks on things you can say that the benefits are pretty consistent with norms in your industry. If they do say something you agree with, like “wow it sucks we have no paid parental leave” you can say “I agree I’d like to see paid parental leave and I’ll be sure to add your input to my own the next time I get to talk with Wakeen about our benefits package.”

      The bit about rights being violated is utter nonsense and I would ignore it completely.

      1. pancakes*

        I think health insurance should be decoupled from employment too, but in the US it isn’t right now and hasn’t been in the recent past, and it’s entirely appropriate for workers of all ages to be mad about being expected to pay for it entirely themselves (or even mostly themselves), considering that employers are generally in a much better position to pay for it (because they have bigger cash flows and more credit available to them, and because it’s cheaper to join a group than be an individual buyer). And fwiw, my first job out of college came with excellent insurance fully paid by my employer. That was the late 90s, a time of relative prosperity, but my boss was the sole proprietor of a small business and didn’t live like a prosperous guy himself.

        Murmuring, how about hiring more experienced employees? I assume you decided earlier on that inexperienced ones are a good bargain, but it sounds like you’re encountering some reasons why it maybe isn’t.

        In any case, I don’t think it’s realistic to assume that the ideas you’re encountering come solely from one vexatious messageboard. You’re talking about a group of coworkers who communicate directly with one another in their day to day lives at work, for a start, and even people who are very online don’t necessarily congregate there. I don’t.

    2. Hi*

      This may be a controversial answer, but it’s an employee’s market, so you may need to think about acquiescing to some of those demands if you want to keep these employees. Obviously some are more attainable than others—for example, could you tell your employees that you hear them and respect their concerns, and your office will begin recognizing Veteran’s Day? I think being transparent about the costs and burdens small businesses have with providing insurance and unlimited sick days may help too—don’t just point to your employee handbook for why their demands aren’t being met, but explain why your policies are what they are.

      1. Doctors Whom*

        The other thing about unlimited (any kind of time off) is that in most cases it winds up being bad for the employee.

        Employees generally take *less* time off and because it’s unlimited, it doesn’t accrue for the employee. Which means if you move on from the company, there’s nothing they need to pay you out. Unlimited PTO policies, if not managed really well, can also enable some really serious equity issues.

        1. PollyQ*

          True for vacation time, I’d say, but not for sick days, which generally don’t accrue or get paid out, even when limited.

    3. Alexis Rosay*

      I think increased transparency can help somewhat with this, esp with health insurance—how much it costs, what the current profit margins are like. If they’re thin and you genuinely can’t add more benefits, that will be helpful for them to understand. And if the profit margins are huge and the company happens to be rolling in dough, that could be a reason to see if any more benefits can be provided.

    4. Miel*

      I mean, I think your employee’s dreams are spot on. I think everyone should have free health insurance, adequate sick days and holidays, etc. And I’m disappointed that this isn’t the case in our society [except in the cushiest of jobs, which do have those benefits].

      So:

      1. Work with management to see if you can increase some benefits.

      2. Be transparent about the decision making process.

      3. If it comes to it, be straightforward about what’s going to happen at your company, and encourage them to look elsewhere for better benefits if this situation isn’t workable for them.

      Here’s hoping for a better work experience for all of us, whether through individual companies, government action, or both.

    5. ecnaseener*

      I would probably say something like “I agree that would be great, when you’re a CEO you can run your company that way!” In a friendly, breezy tone – not mocking, just not taking responsibility either when you don’t make the rules.

      1. Raboot*

        There is no way to say this that isn’t low-key mocking or making light of the request.

        1. ecnaseener*

          What’s key to me is these aren’t requests, they’re statements of what Should Be. If they’re actual requests, yes you need to take those more seriously.

      2. Nope*

        I would not say this. No matter how light the tone is, it will sound snotty and rude.

    6. underpaid & overworked*

      It is kind of weird that your company’s sick days and vacation days are in the same category. Staying home with the flu and not getting your coworkers sick is not really the same thing as taking a vacation.
      Do you at least have SOME sick days that people can use before dipping into their vacation days? Or is all illness considered a vacation to your company?

      1. Doctors Whom*

        Not weird. Ours have always been one bank, and a big bank. It’s not uncommon at all. The poster said “PTO” and not “vacation days.” PTO is just that – paid time off.

        I have 30 days of PTO every year (and 11 federal holidays and 3 annual flex days and some other specific days we shut down and pay people, it’s quite nice).

        I don’t want 20 days of vacation and 10 sick days. I want to use my paid time off however I need/want. The goal of the single PTO bucket is to provide employees with maximum flexibility in how the days are used, and it eliminates the accounting and policy burden of keeping track of & managing different kinds of days off.

      2. WellRed*

        It’s not that weird. How many problems have people written in about that stem from having separate buckets of time?

        1. Doctors Whom*

          Now that I think about it, neither Mr. Doctors nor I have had an employer with separate vacation/sick time since the late 90s.

      3. underpaid & overworked*

        To clarify: when I say weird, it’s more like “terrible for anyone with a serious or chronic illness.” I’m sure lots of companies want to force sick employees to choose between
        1. not getting paid at all
        2. working while sick and making themselves sicker

        Otherwise, the CEO might only make 9 million instead of 10 million per year

    7. underpaid & overworked*

      Also, do your employees typically work more than 40 hours per week, and are they paid a living wage for the area (in other words, would they be able to split the average apartment in the area with a roommate on their salary? or are they paid a salary in which they would be expected to live 2 hours out, or with their parents?)

    8. PollyQ*

      All of those complaints are valid, IMO.
      * I’ve worked places where sick days were unlimited.
      * Health insurance should be free to everyone, regardless of employment status, although IMO it shouldn’t be the responsibility of employers. This is the case in many countries throughout the word.
      * Many companies do give all federal holidays off, and again, many countries have a much larger number of guaranteed holidays than the US.

      I think your best bet is to first see how many of these ideas could be implemented, and then for whatever you can’t do, let people who ask the questions know that unfortunately, you don’t have the budget for that.

    9. fhqwhgads*

      My current job for a not huge company actually has all the things you listed with one exception: health insurance is available to part time staff but the company contributes half the amount they contribute for full time staff. So full timers pay $0 premium, and part timers pay half whatever it is. The same was true at my previous job, at a very similar sized privately owned company to what you describe.
      I bring this up not to say your company must acquiesce, but the specifics you listed aren’t so outrageous. I had them before the pandemic. My understanding is more companies now are doing this since it’s such an employees’ market. So if you have any sway at your company to suggest they seriously consider some of this, that might be a good use of your time. On the other hand, if you have no say whatsoever in these policies, then the kind response is something like “I don’t disagree, but that’s not something I can control here.” or something to that effect. If you know you really truly would make absolutely no headway raising these with management, be up front. And expect to lose staff.

    10. Cj*

      I’ve never read the antiwork thread, but I’ve heard it can get kind of bizarre. However, I do have to admit I enjoy the malicious compliance thread.

    11. Eyes Kiwami*

      Respectfully, a lot of the Antiwork ideas are about advocating for change in general labor practices. So yes expectations are not likely to be met, that is precisely what they want to change. Advocates want these to be common practice.

      I think you will be successful if you implement what you can, provide information and transparency about what you can’t, and direct their energy to larger systems where possible. For example, perhaps you could consider a more generous sick leave policy, but provide info about why you can’t afford to make it unlimited (especially younger workers may not be aware of the background reasons), and encourage people to work to change systems tying insurance to employment.

  107. cleo*

    I wrote a long, detailed question and my browser ate it, so here’s a shorter version.

    I’m looking for success stories for two situations – 1. pushing back on returning to the office policies (that are lowering morale and driving a lot of good people away) and 2. managing up during a time of a lot of change in a department.

    Here are more specifics. I took a new job (in digital communications) that’s full time and permanent (with good benefits!) after 8 years of working freelance and contract roles. I’d worked as a contractor with this department in a couple different roles and knew that I really liked working there. It’s a high volume communications department that’s part of the development and engagement unit of a very well respected educational and research non-profit. So you know, we produce the emails, magazines, etc that build donor engagement and bring in the money. Most everyone in comms works hard and cares about doing a good job but aren’t a-holes about it. And while it’s very deadline driven, the dept is also committed to work-life balance and is very good about keeping to a 40 hour work week (with a few manageable exceptions).

    I did a lot of due diligence and talked with several people I trusted ahead of time – I knew going in that there were problems in the larger unit with a lot of turnover and vacancies, largely due to HR pushing a return to the office policy that a lot of people weren’t comfortable with – it’s a 3 day in, 3 day wfh hybrid model with very little flexibility for more wfh days. It sounded to me that comms was flying under the radar and the comms director wasn’t insisting on coming in to the office. When they offered me the job in early March, there was only normal sounding turnover in comms. So I saw some yellow flags but I decided the benefits, stability and opportunity to work with good people were worth it.

    In the 6 weeks since I started, 5 people in comms have left or given notice (out of about 40 people) and morale is noticeably low. We also have a new director of communications who started a week after I did. In my getting to know you 1 on 1 with her, I mentioned my concerns about turnover and low morale. She asked me what I think is the cause and I said that it was the return to office policy and the fact that there are so many vacancies in other departments that it’s making it really hard for comms to do our job – there are a lot more last minute changes and general chaos in all of our projects. She seemed receptive but then in a later departmental meeting she asked for volunteers to review a “fun committee” that in pre-pandemic times organized fun activities. And yeah, no, that’s not what I had in mind when I mentioned low morale. She does seem good in other ways though.

    I’ve had a few “oh sh*t, I boarded a sinking ship moments” but I’m also feeling energized about the opportunity to save / rebuild the department. I don’t know if it will be possible but I’ve given myself permission to commit to 6 months and re-evaluate then. I feel like this new director is open to feedback (even from someone like me who’s not in management) and I know that a lot of us in comms would like to stay. I’ve already been approached by one of my work friends about possibly bringing concerns to higher management. I’m a designer by training and I like figuring out how to make things work better and I’m good at building consensus by talking with people.

    So that’s why I’m looking for success stories. Tell me about pushing back on bad policies and or about quietly influencing positive change in your department. I already know about the red and yellow flags in this situation, so I’m not interested in hearing about that. Thanks.

    1. pancakes*

      Look at media coverage of #1. Apple has been in the news recently for postponing its back to the office policy, for example.

  108. The Crowening*

    I just found out yesterday I have been accepted to grad school! It’s a 100% online program from a good university in my state. A friend and former colleague of mine went through the same program and it has served her very well. I’m nervous about whether I am up to the work, both because of some long-term impostor syndrome (I’m a shy, slightly awkward person in a field where you tend to do better as a smooth-talking extrovert) and because I haven’t done school in a long time and I just hope I can fit it in around my full-time job. However, my kids are older (late teen and mid-teen) and I moved into a job last year that has a more reliable/predictable schedule than my previous one. So it seems like it should be doable.

    Not looking for negativity, but definitely looking for suggestions for how to do this well. :) Thanks and happy weekend!

    1. PM by Day, Knitter by Night*

      Wait did I write this? I’m actually starting my first class tomorrow and am nervous for all the same reasons. I don’t have any advice, but wanted to say good luck to you and TIA to anyone with advice!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      For shy, awkward person in a smooth-talking, extroverted field: practice makes perfect and you’re in school to learn! Talk to your classmates, talk to your professors, attend the professional events your school puts on for your degree/field. The more you talk to the people in your field in a professional setting, the more comfortable you will be in those “smooth-talking” situations after you graduate.

      1. The Crowening*

        It’s funny, I’ve been in the field with my BA for about 20 years, but in support roles, because I’m not comfortable in the higher-profile “comfortable talking cheerfully with strangers” roles. But I’ve been feeling so limited by it and there is a lot more to the job than being extroverted, a lot of nuts-and-bolts stuff that has changed a lot and grown since I got my BA, so I just want to get caught up and gain more experience so I at least COULD contribute more to those higher-profile roles even if I’m not in one myself.

    3. Alessandra*

      Congratulations! I don’t have much experience with online grad programs, but after struggling through grad school, here’s my advice:

      – Imposter syndrome doesn’t necessarily go away with more experience/time in the program. It goes away when you start to allow yourself to feel that anxiety and reframe it as a desire to do well in your field. You will never stop learning, you will (probably) never be the absolute best in your field. But you can always be intellectually curious and open to investigating your assumptions.

      – Similar to the above, the best thing you can do is ABQ: Always Be Questioning. A word you think you understand but don’t? Ask your mentor/classmates/teacher. Something seem odd but everyone doesn’t seem to question it? QUESTION THAT THING. Many other people are probably wondering the same, and will be grateful for you asking.

      – Break large papers/assignments down into small tasks that you can work on daily.

      – Find classmates that you can chat with and form study groups. I imagine this might be more difficult as you’re online and working full-time, but perhaps you all can work on a group google doc to take/share notes on readings.

      – You will inevitably feel like you are falling behind or drowning in the work. TELL YOUR MENTOR/PROFESSOR WHEN THAT HAPPENS. They might not give you extensions, but they can talk you through what the issues might be. (For example, my problem was writing–I never knew where to start and had trouble chunking the paper into smaller tasks.)

      -Whenever you have a presentation, write out exactly what you want to say. Then read that presentation aloud a few times. THEN practice the talk with minor/no notes and your slides. You don’t have to memorize the whole paper, but you will get the general gist stuck in your mind enough to be able to speak about your topic smoothly (but flexibly, if questions/distractions arise during the talk). If you have to give a long presentation (like a whole class lecture), the transitions are the most important parts to memorize.

      -The real degree is the friends you make along the way. (Mostly joking, but not completely. These classmates will be your peers in the field–it never hurts for people to know you and remember you fondly!)

      1. The Crowening*

        This is all gold! Thank you so much. I’m gonna hang on to all of it.

        I especially love the reframing of imposter syndrome. That’s a much gentler way of looking at it.

      2. CakeDonut*

        I agree with all of this! I finished up a program recently–ages ranged from 20s to 50s/60s maybe. Having experience (being older) was such a plus for people who were newer to career work and just didn’t have the bank of experiences to draw from.
        Also, re: imposter syndrome — I was 1000% convinced that on the first day of orientation, everyone else would introduce themselves with things like “I was my college class president and graduated magna cum laude” or other stuffy things but it was actually MUCH more laid back like “I had perfect attendance in K-12 schooling” or “I won the spelling bee in middle school.” I think the tone helped set us off as friends and not competitors. Still love that group of classmates!

      3. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        “Many other people are probably wondering the same, and will be grateful for you asking.”

        Seconding this!

    4. Disco Janet*

      I completed a fully online masters program last year while teaching full time, and my own kids are 7 and 8. The most important thing that helped me get it done was scheduling specific time to focus on my schoolwork. You’ve got this!

  109. Working while exhausted*

    Do you have a super slow-paced job that is hiring?

    I’m struggling with some mystery health issues and looking for referrals for boring, slow paced jobs that I can still be capable of completing on bad days.
    Accounting support, chat/email customer service, data entry, stuff relating to outdoorsy tourism, stuff related to Texas history would all fit with my resume.

    Doesn’t have to have health insurance or incredible pay, just need to make survival money while figuring out what’s going on.

    2. Purple Cat*

      In my company, Accounts Payable coordinator would fit that bill. A step above strict “data entry” but still routine.

  110. In Libraries Too*

    Looking for advice about expressing oneself through clothing/hair/makeup when options are limited.

    I work at a place where we still wear masks. No complaints there. My challenge is that I derive pleasure from wearing unique (often larger) earrings and necklaces, and experimenting with makeup and hairstyles. I’ve found these things difficult or impossible when wearing a mask. I’m okay with that – I support masking, but it does mean that a large part of my artistic expression is cut off. For a variety of reasons, eye make-up, scarves, shoes, frequently-changed hair color, or frequent new clothes are not realistic.

    Anyone else who uses dress as an artistic outlet have ideas?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I like matching masks to outfits. I have made a lot of cloth ones. When cases are high I wear the cloth one over the more effective mask, else just the cloth one. I don’t get how masks are preventing you from trying new hairstyles though – surely you could continue doing that. I could see large earrings being time consuming to put mask on around, but I’ve seen a lot of people still wearing dangly ones here at least. I still wear necklaces with my masks. What about patches or pins? Those are extremely cheap and fun to accessorize with, I also swap my lanyard all the time too. One of my coworkers has a magnetic badge buddy that she swaps the decorative topper on, was 8 bucks and most people already have magnets lying around too.

      1. ferrina*

        Yes! My family all has very different self expressions through our cloth masks. I’ve seen a couple people with amazing sequined masks!

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t want to come off as dismissive, because I also found wearing a mask super demoralizing in terms of self-expression. My solution was to switch up my mind set. I still wore big earrings (earring stoppers will keep them from coming off if you take on and off your mask) and statement necklaces. I made a point of marching my KN-95 to my outfit (I have them in black, white and blue). I have short hair so my styling options are limited, but my coworker with long hair told me she was activity trying new braids throughout the pandemic. For me, it was less about these things being impossible/hard, and more about me needing to get up the energy to do them and still feel like they mattered when no one was going to see them.

    3. Doctors Whom*

      Well I tried to respond earlier and the internet ate it.

      How is a mask limiting your hairstyle? Is it because you have to have one that ties behind the head due to either fit or work requirements? I ask because I have LOTS of big curly hair and haven’t yet had to modify any hairstyle attempt. But I wear KN95s because they work best for me. If you have to wear a mask that goes behind your head I’d hit up some of the fun instagram DIY hairstyle accounts for some easy fun styles you can do to change it up. There are tons of things that basically just use some variant of ponytails and a topsytail, for example, to create cool easy updos. And there seem to be styling instas or youtubes for any kind of hair except the extremely short.

      As to earrings and necklaces, I don’t understand why these would be affected by a mask. I wear big statement pieces all the time an the only thing is that I need to exercise care when putting on/taking off to make sure my mask doesn’t get caught on my earrings. n fact, I got in to big statement pieces during the pandemic *specifically* because they were a fun way to be expressive when I had to hide my face. So I would say enjoy all your incredible jewelry and just be sure to use two hands when masking/unmasking.

      1. anon24*

        I’m curious too. Not to be dismissive of Libraries because if they say its a problem I’m sure it is, but I am in healthcare and am putting on and taking off masks all day. I have multiple piercings in each ear and I like to do my hair in a more creative way. I do have to be aware taking on and off my mask to slow down and and be conscious not to hook it on an earring and there are some hairstyles I won’t do at work because they tend to make n95 straps slip down my head but I haven’t found my mask to be a huge detriment. I love pulling my hair into a braid that starts high up on one side of my head, and I’m also known at work for wearing my hair in two buns on the top of my head, either pulled fiercly tight or left in a loose “space bun” style. Neither interferes with a mask at all. I’m curious what exactly is causing the problem because I’m sure there’s a way it could be remedied. I’m also not sure how a necklace would interfere with a mask, I wear one 24-7 and have never even noticed it being a problem. My eyeglasses cause far more of an issue than any jewelry I’ve ever worn.

      2. In Libraries Too*

        Re: Masks limiting hairstyles and earrings

        1) I wear the kind that has two stretchy straps that go over/behind the head. The ear-loop kind doesn’t work well for me. Suggestions for how to make the ear-loop kind work may help other readers, but won’t help me.
        2) For factors that I don’t want to mention in case it starts a derail, the mask comes off and on several times a day, even several times an hour. Please don’t derail theorizing why; just know that it’s reasonably safe and there are legitimate reasons.

        For both of the above reasons, I have found that any hairstyle other than “down” gets messy. I caught a reflection of myself too many times with hair looking like a cat pawed at it because I had to put the mask on/off without a mirror nearby.

        Because the mask comes on/off so often, stud earrings were constantly being caught and popping off. Dangly earrings get caught into weird positions or pulled enough to pull my ear. It isn’t worth the hassle. Full hoops are the only kind I can wear comfortably and without fuss with the mask.

      3. SallyAnn*

        You can get headbands that have a button at each side of the temple. You hook the mask ear loops around the buttons instead of your ears. Look online for options – there are lots of them in different colors and patterns.

    4. Eyes Kiwami*

      I’ve seen really beautiful mask holder chains that look like necklaces, or headbands. I’ve seen many Muslim women wear them to secure masks around the back of their headscarves. There are also charms and decorations you can attach to these, kinda like a keychain or bracelet. Perhaps you could attach your statement earrings to the mask holder part? And get a bunch of different kinds like your statement necklaces?

  111. Luce Leakey*

    I have a male co-worker in his early 60s who routinely makes sexist and racist comments (to other team mates, about other people in the company, and just in general.) Recently, the other members of the team have begun expressing their (quite understandable) displeasure with this behavior. We have been trying to find a backup person for him, (because we need it and also due to his age and impending retirement) but the first person left after a few weeks and the new person is already completely fed up with him.

    Our manager is well aware of this behavior, having seen it for himself and heard all of us voice our displeasure, but as far as I can see, hasn’t done anything about it.

    Is there anything we can do besides call him on it when it happens and wait for management to DO something?

      1. Observer*

        That was my first thought. Is your HR at all competent? Because this is the kind of thing that competent HR should be dealing with.

    2. WellRed*

      Has anyone actually filed a complaint ( do you have HR?) about a hostile workplace or are just you assuming the manager just knows it’s an issue because they can see it.

      1. Luce Leakey*

        We have HR, but I don’t know if anyone has filed a complaint. Our manager knows because he has spoken to us about it, saying things like, “I spoke to X and he knows that was a mistake.” In one case the guy even apologized to a co-worker for his sexist comment. (She recently quit and working with him was part of the reason why.)

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      While you manager is seeing it, they may not understand that you and others find it problematic. I would recommend informing the manager of the issue, that it is a problem and you need it resolved so that you and others are not working in a “hostel work environment”. If you have an HR department, go to them as well. If you manager and/or HR doesn’t address this, go to your manager’s boss and have the same conversation. You need to put the company on notice that this behavior is not acceptable and that they need to address it.

      1. Luce Leakey*

        Our manager definitely understands we find it problematic. In our meeting this morning, the new co-worker explained what was said in a meeting yesterday, the circumstances, and how he felt about it. He was very upset and it was obvious in his voice and expression. It feels like our manager doesn’t want to be the bad guy and is letting us work it out for ourselves (which I obviously don’t think is the right approach.)

        I wasn’t at yesterday’s meeting, or an earlier one where the blatantly sexist comments were made (although the entire team, including the manager, discussed that one after the fact.) So far, all this employee has done to me is annoy me with long boring stories, stupid jokes, and endless mansplaining. But I would definitely report him myself if he said anything untoward to or about me.

        1. Observer*

          If you see or hear anything you can report it. In the meantime, if your company is not dysfunctional and HR is reasonably competent, you and each person who has something said to them, or hears him saying stuff like this can and should report to both HR and up the chain. The fact that your manager is aware doesn’t mean that these other avenues are closed off.

  112. Anonymous for this*

    So, if this is not appropriate, please remove it but it is work related. Meta/Facebook recently told their workforce that they are not allowed to discuss abortion at work. While other companies are offering to pay employees for transpiration out of state for procedures (Amazon/Tesla) and another company is even offering to help employees move out of the state of Texas (Salesforce). My question is, has anyone else’s company come out with a position on abortion or communicated things they will do to help employees in areas where it will likely become illegal?

    Note: my intent is not to start a debate on abortion or the Roe v. Wade case but to understand how different employers are approaching this sensitive topic.

      1. Miel*

        Yeah, this still seems like a bad move by fb.

        I get that the comment section is going to be a hot mess when you’re talking about abortion, but it’s a weird look to ban one particular topic.

      2. Miel*

        They say you can talk about it in a small group up to 5 people. I’d be tempted to talk about it with 6 people, just to be sassy.

        Also, I bet the Employee Resource Groups will have something to say about this.

    2. Miel*

      Tbh, most of these approaches strike me as odd.

      Completely banning a topic of conversation? YIKES. (is that illegal? Probably not, but it’s kinda gross.)

      Offering to pay for a (rather sensitive) medical procedure for employees, or presumably their partners? Gosh, I’d hate to explain to my boss why I need to take a couple days off. Submitting that expense report would be horrible.

      Relocation offer? Honestly, that makes the most sense of any of these.

      Anyway, my company has done absolutely nothing about the abortion thing. The leadership tries to stay centrist on most political issues, and honestly, I think Nothing is approximately the right thing to do here. (for additional context, most employees live in states where abortion is likely to stay legal, so it’s less of an imminent crisis.)

      Also: if the company wanted to help, they could make sure that their health insurance plan covers abortion and birth control, increase the company contribution to everyone’s Health Savings Account, and make sure employees have access to adequate sick time/ PTO.

    3. ferrina*

      My company is offering to pay for transportation to another state that supports your health needs.

  113. Whatdointerviewerswant*

    I had a situation this week during an interview where the interviewer asked me to describe a conflict and how I resolved the conflict. I started to describe the conflict and he cut me off and asked me how did I resolve it. I asked him if he wanted me to describe the conflict as he had asked prior or just wanted to hear the resolution. He then just goes onto the next question.

    So my question: When asked questions regarding conflict/resolution do they just want to know how you resolved the conflict or do they want a brief explanation of the conflict along with the resolution?

    1. Sloanicota*

      It sounds like he wanted one short sentence on the conflict and then focus on the resolution.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      You can’t really understand the resolution without knowing what the conflict is! If you just say the resolution was to immediately distance yourself from a person and talk to your boss, their boss, and HR, that could be a correct response to a coworker attempting to trigger your deadly allergy by leaving unshelled peanuts on your keyboard, but it would a bad response to a coworker who disagreed with you over the new TPS header font.

      It’s not a perfect example, but the point is that there’s no one size fits all answer to every problem, and it’s important to have insight into what the problem was if they’re trying to understand how you react and respond to conflict.

      I’m seriously side-eyeing the interviewer here, between cutting you off and then ignoring you and completely moving on, he sounds pretty unpleasant. If the job would involve working closely with him, I’m not sure I’d want to take it/pursue more interviews for it.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think this is just a case of your interviewer being not very good. I wouldn’t read to much into it.

    4. irene adler*

      Sounds to me like a behavioral question. The interviewer’s focus is on the thoughts/actions you took to resolve the conflict (are you a quick thinker? do you monitor the effect of the resolved conflict? do you look at all sides of a conflict? do you consider the feelings of other parties in the conflict? ). Not so much what the conflict was about.

      Look up the STAR method to better understand how to answer these types of questions. They do emphasize keeping the S (situation) brief . That way the interviewer can focus on your A (action) and R (result).

      Yes, the interviewer was a jerk to cut you off like that. No justification for doing so.

    5. Purple Cat*

      Go over exactly what you said with a trusted friend.
      One possibility is that your “description” of the conflict was very in-depth and detailed and since interviewer got the gist they wanted you to move on to the resolution part of the question. That’s the “meat” of the answer and how they’ll evaluate you as a candidate.
      Another possibility is that your interviewer is a jerk, or was having a bad day, or is otherwise a bad interviewer.

      (Acknowledging tone is impossible to read on the internet) the way you described “I asked him if he wanted me to describe the conflict as he had asked prior or just wanted to hear the resolution. He then just goes onto the next question.” It sounds like there might have been a fair amount of snark on your end. If I’m the interviewer and I might have a standard list of questions I have to get through, I’m also moving on to the next question and in my mind have moved on to the next candidate.

    6. Wisteria*

      When asking questions, they want you to answer the question. You started off strong, answering the question. Then the interviewer had heard as much as they wanted to hear, cut you off, and changed the question (not really a change, just moved to part b of the original question). When that happens, regardless of the question, they want you to answer the question.

      If it makes you feel better, he’s not a great interviewer. He shouldn’t cut you off, and he should have responded to or at least acknowledged your clarifying question instead of just moving on.

      In general though, answer the question they asked, even if it’s slightly different from the first time they asked it.

    8. Whatdointerviewerswant*

      I want to thank everyone that responded and I really appreciate it!!

      I got the call that I did not get the job but did receive positive feedback; so I will take that as a win! And a second win for actually hearing back one way or another!! lol

  114. Tippy Toes*

    I applied 2 weeks ago for a job with a local performing arts organization that typically has a fall-spring season with the summer off. I haven’t gotten any kind of acknowledgement that my application was received, but I see the job is still posted on their website so I don’t think it’s been filled yet. Their last big event ends in about 3 weeks, so I’m wondering if I should wait to follow up after that. I can understand being too busy right now for interviews, but is waiting potentially 5 weeks normal? This is my first time applying for anything in this field, so I don’t have any point of reference.

    1. ferrina*

      Ooh. I don’t do performing arts anything, but I’ve worked at an organization that had a yearly major event. It would dominate staffs’ time for at least a month leading up to it, then the week after we’d all be recovering.
      This might be a rare case where you can reach out twice- once now and once about a week or two after the big event. (Hoping a performing arts professional will weigh in and correct me if I’m wrong!)

  115. Feeling Guilty*

    Hi all, I am almost a year into a job as an associate attorney at a law firm and… I’m going to be quitting in about ten days. I realized that I don’t want to spend the next three or four decades dealing with frustrating clients and billable hours, so I recently accepted a job at a library that starts in July. I’ve never really quit a job before—I’ve always had an “excuse,” like going back to school, and this will be my first time leaving one job for another. I’ve read everything this blog has ever posted about quitting, but I’m still so nervous!!! I have tons of little questions—what time of day should I quit? Is it bad if I get really emotional? (I like my coworkers and my guilt/anxiety over leaving after less than a year will probably make me tear up.) I have one coworker I’m really close to—should I tell her before my supervisor? Is it bad that I haven’t given ANY hints that I might be leaving (like when my supervisor mentions projects for this fall, I always say I’m excited)? I guess I’m just looking for any tips you all have for giving notice without totally losing my composure and coming across like a crazy person.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      One thing to decide is how much notice you want to give. Personally, I have luckily always worked at sane places, and given a ton of notice if I have been able too. However, if you feel like there’s any chance you’ll be forced out sooner or people will react badly, feel free to wait and give your two weeks. I think you can tell a close coworker sooner, but you need to decide the risk of them telling others and how much that might harm you. I’d tell you boss a day after you tell your coworker, because even the best intended people news tends to slide around most offices.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Practice what you are going to say to your supervisor at home. Say it out loud, cry if you need to, say it out loud again. Keep practicing until you find the right wording and can say what you want to say without a large display of emotion. When you do give your notice, it’s ok if your eyes tear up a little and/or your voice is a little quivery.

      Tell your supervisor first. You don’t want there to be any chance they could hear it from someone else before they hear it from you. You can tell your favorite coworker right after the conversation with your boss, if you want her to know right away.

      Time of day shouldn’t matter if you work at a reasonable place. If you’re worried about unreasonableness, take all of your personal belongings home first then give your notice towards the end of the day so your boss has the whole evening/night to “cool off” (which they shouldn’t need to do! quitting is a normal thing that happens all the time and isn’t personal!).

      It’s very normal to not give any signs that you might leave before officially giving notice to your boss.

  116. Academic Librarian too*

    Procrastination Thread
    March and April Monthly Reports
    April Statistics
    Staff schedules.
    1 complex on-line reference request
    Need to get done before an intern interviews at 2:00

  117. Emma*

    I need a new job title to reflect that I took on a colleague’s role on top of mine during covid.
    What can I suggest as a new title?
    I am a Director of Laama Grooming. The role I took on was Director of Pot Painting. I am now taking over Laama Grooming in South America but the Pot Painting role is only in North America.
    How to I create a title that reflects all of this?

    1. Doctors Whom*

      For what purpose do you need a single title? Is there something specific?

      I’d use them both rather than try to come up with something that bends to meet all those elements:

      Lucinda Turtledove
      Director, Pot Painting, North America
      Director, Llama Grooming, South America

      At a university you’ll see things like

      Festus McGibbons
      Arthur Blabbington Professor of Noodleywonking
      Director of the Lerpiss Center for Excellence in Blooblewagging

      1. Hlao-roo*

        As a follow-on, if you want/need to put your title all on one line you can just have a long title that says it all:

        Lucinda Turtledove
        Director of Pot Painting in North America and Llama Grooming in South America

        or

        Lucinda Turtledove
        Director of North American Pot Painting and South American Llama Grooming

      2. Emma*

        That’s a very good idea. I want a new title to reflect that I have taken on more responsibility and that I am both doin pot painting and llama grooming. People are also a little confused by the different geographies and it’s difficult to explain to people what I actually do…

  118. cablecar*

    I’ve been at a new company for three months now. The culture is great, pay is good, all of my coworkers are great…except one. I share an office with Tim. He spends most of his day complaining about how busy he is (but not working on any of the things making him busy), how awful his (mostly 9-5) schedule is, and how helping our customers is beneath him but he’s somehow expected to do it, can you imagine??

    When he’s out on the public floor, he’s surly, curt, and sometimes downright rude to customers. One customer told me yesterday that she appreciates how kind I am because “not everybody is.” He’s the only person I can think of that she might be talking about.

    This morning, with our supervisor’s blessing, I wrote instructions for a new piece of equipment and put it out for customers to reference. They can ask us questions if they need it, but I’m hoping this would help them use the machine on their own. I had good luck with instructions like this at my previous company.

    My supervisor asked Tim to practice using the machine with the instructions so we could see if they were helpful. Tim loudly pretended to be a rude customer, complaining that he was stuck and demanding we use the machine for him. My supervisor had to tell him twice to just get on with the show.

    I guess it’s supposed to be funny, and it kind of is, because we all know there’ll be people who demand our help even with instructions in front of them. But it feels part and parcel with his attitude in general. I’m starting to feel discouraged from suggesting changes–which is supposed to be my job–because I can already hear what he’ll say. Can I talk to my supervisor about this? How should I approach it? Or should I try harder to ignore him?

    1. ferrina*

      Keep going! It sounds like your supervisor loved your instructions idea and was annoyed at Tim’s shenanigans. That’s good. Give it another couple months. If customers slide in complaints to you, you can encourage them to go to wherever your department’s feedback should go (survey, direct to supervisor, email…however your company/role operates). That will help the supervisor see if/where there are complaints about Tim.

      I’d also get headphones.

      If you’re up for it, now is also a time for malicious positivity. Sometimes chornically grumpy people will just stop talking to you if you’re always upbeat. One of my friends got annoyingly cheerful when she was a bad day- it was hilarious to watch others cringe at her chipper voice. You’d know better than I if this is an option with Tim’s personality/your personality.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      I might encourage any customers who say things about how “not everybody” is kind to let the manager know if they are having any problems. After all, you want to make sure they’re treated well there and enjoy the experience! If manager gets customer complaints about Tim, they might be more inclined to act.

    3. PollyQ*

      If he’s being rude and unhelpful to customers, the that’s definitely something you can legitimately bring up to your supervisor. As to his overall negativity, PLEASE don’t let it stop you from doing your job as well as you can. Make whatever suggestions, improvements, etc. to your supervisors and 100% ignore any comments from Tim.

    4. Observer*

      You’ve gotten excellent advice. Yes, on the headphones. And you could probably suggest to people who complain about Tim to talk to the manager. But you could also just bring it up with your boss.

      As for making suggestions, it doesn’t matter what Tim thinks about it, it’s your Boss’ opinion that counts. And it sounds like your boss is on board. Just don’t even talk to Tim about it – go directly to your boss.

      And if Tim tries to talk to you about all of his complaints, tell him you are busy and turn to the next thing you need to do or walk away. It may feel rude, but it’s fine.

  119. Jana*

    A company that my company frequently contracts to work on projects is hiring for a position that I’m probably an 80% match for and, because I’ve worked with this team a lot, I feel like I have strong insight into the work they do and how they do it. My major questions about the job are really about work culture.

    Would it be strange to submit an application without letting them know I was interested first?* The person I know best there is most likely doing the hiring and is in a senior leadership position, so I don’t think he’d be the best to share about any culture shortcomings that might exist. If I wasn’t successful, I’d still need to work with him in the future on projects.

    (*This may be a question with an obvious answer, but I’ve never applied for a job with a company that my own company has a relationship with before.)

    1. ferrina*

      If you have frequent contact, I’d let them know. But be aware that there’s a good chance that they’d want to let your boss know (to preserve their relationship with your current company).

      For culture, I’d look at Glassdoor. I’d do that before even applying. You can even bring up Glassdoor in interviews- of course, you’d need to be gentle with the wording, and if you end up declining because of culture, I wouldn’t say that was the reason.

      1. Jana*

        Thanks for the input! That’s interesting–I would never have thought about them telling my boss if I applied. I’d certainly hope they wouldn’t!

    2. Purple Cat*

      Personally, I would reach out to the person I’m closest to to get a vibe on the situation and get their thoughts and/or referrals for the position.
      While it’s *possible* that this person might inform your boss, that really would be outside the bounds of professional norms. I moved to a closely related company and my direct contact excused themselves from the interview process so they weren’t biased. Then once they offered me the job and I accepted, they did feel like it was important for them to reach out to the senior exec in my company that sort of “oversaw” the relationship and let him know I was moving, rather than it coming up through normal ranks of me to my manager… They wanted to make sure it was clear they hadn’t proactively poached me.

  120. Tuesday*

    Any office-wide social activities that don’t suck? Both offsite and in-office activities? I am the least social person in the world, but I’m on the planning committee. We are ensuring that people can opt out of anything we choose, so no one will be forced to play sports or anything like that. But that said, what social activities have you found to be fun?

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      My office orders beverages in sometimes. Bubble tea most recently. Two people went to pickup, then everyone picked theirs up in breakroom. Lots of “oh what flavor did you choose”, “have you tried this before” and other easy socializing. Plus free tea. Also not disruptive to the workday (people in meetings grabbed theirs out of the fridge later).

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      One activity that I found surprisingly fun was that everyone submitted a couple fun facts about themselves ahead of time that they didn’t think most people would know about them. A bunch were selected and then displayed anonymously at the event, and we had to try and guess who the person was. They ended up being things like “has a twin and is one of five sets of twins within their family”, “was an alternate for the Olympic swim team”, “had a walk-on role on Ally McBeal”, and my favorite: “was detained and almost got deported while volunteering in a foreign country under suspicions of being a spy”. This was done as a large group (maybe 50 people, so not too large) and it was really fun to try and guess who the fact was about and then have them reveal themselves. (Bonus if they had relevant photos!)

      Not sure if that would work depending on the size of your group, and this is more of an ice breaker than a full event activity, but it’s the only icebreaker I think I’ve ever done that was actually fun, didn’t feel forced, and actually got me to socialize with a large group of coworkers.

    4. kiki*

      Upstairs Circus! It’s a bar where everybody makes a craft of their choosing. Everyone can choose their own project and there’s a good variety– everything from coasters, to pet collars, to jewelry, to interior decor. I’ve found it works well because it gives less socially outgoing folks a purpose and something to do with their hands, but the more social folks can pick an easier project and focus on socializing.

    5. Aspiring Meducator*

      Our team has enjoyed games like Taboo and Scattegories (both of which can be done over Zoom) – but depends a lot on the culture. A “game break” could be fun, with options for loud active games and also quieter ones (card games, trivia ….) We have also enjoyed low-key outings: a tour of a maple sugar operation, walking tour of a nearby historic area. People can stick around for snacks/socializing, or not.

    6. Admin of Sys*

      If you’re somewhere with decent weather, outdoor picnics (in a shelter) are nice. Assuming there’s accessibility accommodations, it lets folks hang out if they feel like being social, have food, and also go for walks or whatever if they’d rather just be more on their own.

    7. Yoga Sloth*

      My dept just did a plant swap. We had a large room where people brought plants to trade or give away. There were some light snacks. It was pretty fun to talk with others about the plants they brought, and even the “I’m terrible with plants” people seemed to enjoy learning and interacting with others, and a lot of them went home with some easy-care plants. It was advertised on email and Teams and was a come-and-go event. I thought it was a good easy, chill social event that actually got us talking about something other than work.

    8. WantonSeedStitch*

      Food-centered things go over well in my office. Ice cream socials where we get a few pints from a local creamery, along with toppings, are nice. Bake-offs. Potlucks (Google Docs for signup makes it easier to avoid having five people bring chips and salsa).

    9. ferrina*

      We did a coffee round robin in a virtual office. Everyone got randomly assigned into groups of 4, then set up coffee to chat with their group. There were a couple prompts that you could use (or not), but it was a nice way to remotely socialize with folks you might not otherwise chat with.

    10. The Prettiest Curse*

      If you have a fairly small group and you’re close to anything that’s interesting to photograph, you could do a photo walk and post any resulting photos on office noticeboards or screens, or on your intranet or Teams/Slack channels.

      It doesn’t need to involve a huge amount of walking, or could even be mostly static in one location (sitting in a park and taking pictures of birds, for example.)
      We did one around our building recently – it was led by a professional photographer (relative of a team member), but anyone who’s good at taking photos could do it. We’re in a fairly new office park, but there were still some great pictures and people really enjoyed being able to get outside.

    11. Purple Cat*

      We did multiple escape rooms for one Team Building activity.
      Bowling was surprisingly well-liked/popular.
      There is a local bar that has a massive stash of board games you can play while drinking.
      Paint nite/ wood burning

  121. Perpetual Job Seeker*

    Anyone want to commiserate about being ghosted after the final interview?? Feeling down about it today. Last interview was a month ago today, they said there would be a response in 2 weeks, and I’ve never heard a peep.

  122. Jax*

    I’m curious how others address thank you notes following an interview if you’re not sure of someone’s prefix/title. Thankfully now most people’s pronouns are in their email signature or with their Zoom name so I’ll do my best to go off of that but if they’re not I end up trying to google if they’ve been written about somewhere to get an idea. For a cover letter I’ll address it to the full name with no prefix but this seems a little odd with the follow up note once we’ve met. Depending on the friendliness of the interview I may go with just a first name but I prefer to stay slightly more formal.

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      For me, I would prefer to get thank you notes with just my first name if I have met the person before. It is more in line with the relationship.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Same, for me it feels better/more natural to receive a note that says “Hi Simple, thanks for…” vs “Hi Ms. Narwhal, thanks for…” especially since I introduced myself as Simple during the interview, and not Ms. Narwhal.

        It’s not a huge deal and I wouldn’t hold it against someone, but if asked, my preference is to be addressed by how I introduced myself, which is by my first name.

    2. PollyQ*

      I think it’s fine to go with the first name without any title nowadays. The only people that seem to care about titles are doctors, and there you’d just use “Dr.” I also think if people aren’t sharing their pronouns, it’s pretty safe to use the title that goes with their apparent gender. After all, if they’d wanted you to use something different, they could’ve let you know up front.

  123. The Spaghetti Is Not Sticking to the Wall*

    I was promoted about 3 years ago to manage my team, replacing a colleague who was moved into another position — but also acknowledged to me that she had experienced some symptoms of burnout. My level of tolerance was slightly higher, but admittedly I have been functioning with mild, persistent depression my entire life — so feeling symptoms of burnout is a pretty consistent constant that I suppose I’m (too) comfortable with.

    Last year I received a pretty significant pay raise in acknowledgment of the work I was doing. BUT… for the past few months I am becoming increasingly anxious and frustrated by managing a team and a growing discontentment with my career in general. As a result, I am seriously considering offering myself up for demotion. I’ve floated the idea with trusted people, but all of them feel that demoting myself wouldn’t remove the burden of responsibility I would have as someone who has been working for the company for quite some time and have become a reliable representative for the department.

    So I’m faced with a conundrum. I’m looking to make a pretty drastic change and I feel like I need to identify the best steps to take in order to manage my own mental health as well as my professional success.

    Apologies that this is so vague. The short version is – I’m no longer satisfied with my career or evolving to higher positions in my chosen field. I want to establish better work/life balance and reestablish my personal life so that I can enjoy my life rather than constantly feel behind the wheel.

    Any advice?

    1. underpaid & overworked*

      Are there part time roles in your field/at your company that might work for you? If not, I would suggest looking for more laid back roles in your industry at other companies – places that won’t expect you to know everything. There might also be other teams/groups at your company where you might feel less burned out, even if the title/hours are similar-ish.

    2. WantonSeedStitch*

      What about pursuing a job in your field that doesn’t have management responsibilities, at another company? A former boss of mine was not a bad manager in many ways, but didn’t really enjoy the role. She ended up taking a position at a different organization that was a step down the career ladder, and I think she’s happier. I’ve also interviewed people for Senior Llama Groomer positions who had experience as managers of Llama Grooming teams, and they cited reasons like “want to do the actual work of this field, rather than management,” and “better work-life balance,” and I thought that was entirely reasonable.

    3. Flower necklace*

      I’m a high school department chair and faced a similar problem earlier this year. I came very close to stepping down, but, in the end, I couldn’t go through with it. I don’t think it would have been as easy as simply stepping aside and letting someone else take on the role. Either I would have stepped in and helped with it, anyway, or else I would have felt guilty for giving it up to someone less experienced and less capable of handling it.

      Ultimately, I’ve committed to establishing firmer boundaries next year. For me, what that looks like, unfortunately, is spending less time in the classroom so I’m not juggling so much. I’m not sure if a similar solution is possible for you.

      If I had decided to give up the department chair position entirely, I probably would have ended up either moving to another department or (more likely) leaving altogether, like WantonSeedStitch suggested. It would be easier for me to start over again as a teacher in a new environment, where I’m a new face instead of a known quantity.

  124. underpaid & overworked*

    I won’t be in this role much longer (accepted a different role elsewhere & am starting in early June) but I am so angry at how my company has treated people – and my team, in particular. My workload & my team’s workload has doubled; but there’s barely been any assistance or additional staffing – just constant criticism and complaints. It would be better if we at least got some sort of reasonable compensation for our increased workload, but of course not. There’s also been a lot of turnover on my team, and it drives me insane that no one seems to notice WHY we might all be trying to get off of one of the most under appreciated teams at the company. Again, it would be one thing if there was appropriate compensation, but without that, it’s just a horrible endless nightmare of more and more and more and more just getting piled on. I used to be really happy in my role and in my team, up until the year started, at which point there were some major changes in my company. I thought that would be a short term issue that would be resolved with proper staffing and resources, but it’s just dragged on for almost six months now and they’re only starting to try and fix the issues now. Before dumping a ton of new work on staff that could have been easily planned for/anticipated, why don’t executives make any effort to plan ahead? Before doubling the work of an already understaffed team, why not try to add a couple more people to the team? Or give us more time to do prep work?

    What’s depressing is that my company is one of the better ones! Good PTO + benefits, really nice people. Pay was generally market rate or slightly above market rate (at least for my role/team).

    Are there any strategies that anyone has to keep me from going insane and saying what I really think in the last two weeks at this job?

    1. kiki*

      I was really vocal on my way out and I don’t regret it at all. My coworkers who stayed actually thanked me for it because they didn’t feel like they could be fully honest. It doesn’t sound like all the issues have been fixed, but some of the lowest-hanging fruit– raises, promotions, and more effort put into backfilling – have been taken care of.

  125. anon e mouse*

    I’m late enough to the thread that I don’t expect any responses, and I don’t really have a question anyway, just work-related venting.

    1) I turned down a job offer this week. I have been stuck at the same salary across two roles since before COVID and it just wasn’t a compelling enough opportunity to remain basically stuck on the salary. The manager guilt tripped me on the phone about it when I told her! This is why people turn you down by email, do not do this.
    2) I am noticing a very annoying pattern probably related to the very labor-friendly job market. A recruiter hits me up, either cold or in response to an application. I talk to the recruiter and pass some pointless screen that could have been an email or even questions on the application itself. I get referred to the hiring manager. I have a very rote conversation with the hiring manager that barely reveals anything that wasn’t clear from my resume, and then I get instantly rejected. What I believe is happening is that recruiters are casting a wide net to hit quotas, not really checking in with the hiring managers, and then my time is getting wasted. I am a decent interviewee, I get offers pretty often when I look, and again, these are very lame interviews that don’t offer much of an opportunity to stand out anyway, so I assume that is what is happening. Frustrating.

    1. underpaid & overworked*

      One good way of screening which recruiters are serious or not is asking for the pay range for the role.
      You’ll get an idea of the responsibility level (or at least what it should be) if they provide the pay scale, and if they don’t provide a pay range, you’ll know they aren’t serious about you as a candidate.

  126. Aspiring Meducator*

    Hi,
    Just curious if anyone in the medical education space knows whether it’s possible to do this work without a clinical background. I work with healthcare providers currently, but as an external training provider of non-clinical content. Would welcome input on moving into Med Ed, if it’s even possible. Thanks!

  127. The Raven*

    I have an interview next week. I am giving notice at my current position today. Regardless of the outcome of the interview next week, for my mental health and other reasons I can’t continue in my current role. I did not lie on my resume, as when I submitted the application I hadn’t given notice. How should I handle it in the interview?

    1. Miel*

      Only if it comes up:

      “I had the opportunity to take a little time off in between jobs”
      “Feeling burnt out, left my previous job to recharge”

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      If it comes up, which it likely wouldn’t during the interview, just say that you have recently put in your notice and will be leaving XYZ company to focus on your job search full time. If you can give additional context that you are comfortable sharing and isn’t too negative that is fine. Something like, the company was requiring working from the office and I’m looking for remote work or this was a good time to leave as I’ve just wrapped up a major project and didn’t want to start a new project knowing I wouldn’t be able to see it though.

      When it will come up is at the offer stage as they will likely do a background check. At that point you need to proactively let them know that you have recently left the company as of XYZ date. You don’t want them to run the check and then believe you were not honest on your resume as that could result in the offer being pulled. Good luck!

    3. justabot*

      I would always keep a positive, “While you enjoyed doing x, y, and z, for pervious company, your passion and expertise is in this area and you are focusing your efforts on how you can bring value to this type of role etc etc.”

  128. Me!*

    I did not get the job I posted about in the last open thread. It would have been a good fit and I could have started remotely and then moved. I cried when I got the email. :'(

    Question: A recruiter from an employment agency I contacted in 2020 emailed me about a temporary, two-week engagement covering someone who is presumably on vacation. It’s basic admin stuff (phone, ugh) but would allow me to earn some money while I’m still looking. He shot them my updated resume and I start on Tuesday.

    I’m nervous. I haven’t worked onsite for more than five years now. Although I don’t feel like my skills have lapsed (I even acquired new ones during this downtime), I’m scared to go back into an office setting. Almost all my interviews for the past year have been on Zoom and I was hoping to start a job remotely so I would already be working before I have to actually go in. I did ask about masking; the recruiter said they require vaccination and he was sure masking would be fine.

    I suppose it’s not a big deal if everything doesn’t go perfectly since it’s only for two weeks, it’s not going on my resume, and they’ll likely never see me again, but I’m still very anxious about it. Plus I have to drive 30 minutes to get there in an unfamiliar area, which sets off my travel anxiety, though I can run up this weekend to see where it is.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for getting back into an office / not being terrified?

    1. A nona moose*

      My only advice is to stick to your guns on mask-wearing. Rehearse a response if anyone asks you about it. I’m constantly nervous about going back in person. I’m the only weirdo in the office who wears a mask, but nobody bothers me and I just keep doing it. The perceived comfort I get from it gives me peace of mind and that’s what matters.

      1. Me!*

        My go-to answer is that I don’t have health insurance and I can’t afford any complications. Or I say “Because people are gross, ew,” but that’s not a good one for work!

    2. justabot*

      I think you just got to do it, almost like quickly pulling off a bandaid, there’s an ouch factor and then it’s over. Sometimes it helps to be forced out of your comfort zone and this actually sounds like an ideal situation because it’s not permanent. Use it as a low stress, practice opportunity to get your feet wet, so that you DO feel ready when something bigger and more important to you presents an opportunity.

      Honestly, it may end up just being good low key experience to getting acclimated to an office again, when you haven’t been in that environment in so long. Just basic skills like making small talk, observing norms, and the great thing about being a temp is that no one expects you to know anything. It’s perfectly fine to ask questions and laugh that it’s your first day so…. Just be friendly, make eye contact, smile and introduce yourself to people, “Hi, I’m x, I’ll be temping here for two weeks, etc.” Listen a lot, take it in, ask questions if need an answer on something, don’t tell them everything they are doing wrong (even if they are!), or if people make conversation with you, just ask pleasant/nuetral questions about their job or the company, and listen more than you talk. You’ll be great!

      1. Me!*

        This makes me feel better, thank you.
        Temping is weird anyway. I haven’t done it in a long time, so my anxiety brain is classifying it as GOOD LORD, A JOB.

    3. Vinessa*

      I don’t understand why you’re not going to put this job on your resume. It would be your most recent work experience, right? A temp job is far, far better at the top of your resume than a huge unemployment gap.

      1. Me!*

        It won’t fit unless I take off my small business. I’m not taking that off even though I make almost nothing. I could remove a freelance job and put it on instead, but I’ve optimized my resume for jobs I want.

        The resume is actually getting responses. A big part of the gap is thanks to COVID. If this agency gives me more work, I can find a way to squeeze it on there. We’ll see. Otherwise I can mention it in cover letter or interviews.

        1. LDN Layabout*

          As much value as your business has for you, I’d urge you to reconsider including the most recent experience you have as an employee.

          If you are applying for FT positions, that temporary job proving you have the ability to show regularly and do the work will have a great impact than either the freelancing or the small business.

        2. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

          Surely you can revise your resume a bit to put this on there? I edit mine for just about every job I do, even if it’s only a very short contract. You’re a writer, I have no doubt that you can creatively tweak your resume to highlight this recent experience.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I’m not sure that “don’t be terrified” is an actionable goal, unless you have a therapy and medication regimen to address and de-escalate the anxiety directly. You feel what you feel, and getting caught up in a struggle to not feel something is self-defeating.

      Instead, look for ways to keep moving forward and not let the feelings derail you. Doing a test -drive on the commute is a good one. Meal planning for healthy lunches and snacks is a constructive way to direct your energy and ensure that you are taking care of yourself.

      Get some exercise, make sure you’re adjusting your sleep schedule so Tuesday morning isn’t a shock, and lay out your clothes so you have a peaceful morning.

      Most of your first day or two will be orientation / learning the lay of the land. The great thing about temping is that you have nothing to prove. You don’t have to dazzle anyone with brilliance.

      You’re just going to meet up with some people who need a hand with some things that you already know how to do. Congrats on a good step forward, and best wishes for Tuesday!

    5. alex b*

      This temp gig is great news! My advice about being back:

      — Immediately get on the sleep/wake routine you’ll need.

      — Prep every night before: outfit, water/snacks/lunch, and other stuff (masks, lip balm, hand sanitizer, hair ties, device chargers, etc).

      — Plan to be a bit wiped out the first few evenings. I’m always exhausted after I go back to full days after some time off. So, maybe spend this weekend on laundry/chores/groceries/meal prep. Get yourself set up for the week so you can come home and crash if you need to.

      — Try to learn at least a couple people’s names in any way that works for you.

      If anything– for two weeks? You can start the countdown to exit on the first day! Just keep your eye on the paycheck. You got this.

    6. Middle School Teacher*

      Honestly, and respectfully, after your long unemployment gap, this job needs to go on your resume.

      1. Me!*

        I realized yesterday that I can fit it in! The freelance work I was reluctant to take off was in 2017, and I didn’t want it to look like I didn’t work at all that year. But the dates for my small business are actually 2017-present. I don’t know why I didn’t remember that before. Pandemic brain, I guess.

  129. Bernie*

    I’ve been with my company for about a year now and I was recently assigned the task of reconciling our health insurance bill. No biggie.

    I found out that the people who cover their family are paying more a month than what the insurance company charges us. I went to the manager and she knows, it was set up this way. This is so wrong to me, is this legal?

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      Wait, so the company is basically making money off of people who have their families covered by insurance?!

    4. Observer*

      You need to start looking for a new job TODAY.

      What your company is doing is definitely shady, and probably illegal. Which means that things are quite likely to explode – and I have no doubt that someone will try to throw you under the bus. Even if not, since you are aware of this you could easily get caught in the crossfire, so to speak.

      Also, now that your manager realizes that you are aware of this and *questioning* it, it’s quite likely that someone is going to be going after you in big and little ways.

      Really, this job is not salvageable. Find another job where the employer (or someone in the office) is not going to steal from staff. And then report them on your way out.

    5. OtterB*

      What the employees pay isn’t covering something additional, is it? Like medical insurance payments go to one company but dental to another?

  130. [Insert Clever Name Here]*

    A week ago today I was laid off from a very toxic job and my former boss (who was responsible for all of the toxicity) had the audacity to cry during the meeting. When I got home, I had a voicemail from the office manager sarcastically informing me they had forgotten to endorse my final paycheck and that I wouldn’t be able to cash it. We made arrangements for me to receive my endorsed final paycheck that day and I spent the whole weekend grieving.

    Flash forward to mid-week, I was offered a part time contractor role as Office Manager at a great company that seems very excited to have me onboard. Hope to spin it into a permanent position but for now it’s a great transition job while I work with a therapist to address what happened at old job.

    1. ferrina*

      Congrats! I’m glad you’re out of Toxic Job, but man, the blow of being laid off is rough (even if you’re glad to be gone). Therapy is a great idea! And getting a new role already? Wow!

      I hope you have something lovely planned for the weekend. This is a lot that’s happening, and it sounds like you are handling it extremely well (given the extremely tough circumstances)

      1. Insert Clever Name Here*

        Thank you for the kind words! I must admit that I’m not handling any of this well. I hadn’t been getting along with my therapist so I kicked him to the curb as well. I do have some fun things planned this weekend though!

    2. Observer*

      Good grief!

      Your manager may have been toxic, but I have to say that it’s clear that they weren’t the source of ALL of the toxicity. I mean, how does the office manager manage to give you a paycheck that hasn’t been endorsed? And why the sarcasm? It’s not like YOU messed up!

      Which is to say that it sounds like there was more than enough toxicity to go around.

      I’m sorry you got laid off. But I’m glad you are out of there.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I can’t even imagine how or why “the check you have didn’t get endorsed, so we need to issue you a new one” could be said sarcastically. Do you believe it was done deliberately to mess with you? And if so, what was the point, since you got the new one the same day?

      Congrats on the new job, it’s always a relief when you can get something quickly.

      1. Insert Clever Name Here*

        They were definitely messing with me (which they did all the time). My favorite coworker dropped off the endorsed check to my apartment and we talked and hugged so it was a nicer send off.

  131. Teapot Auditor*

    I am on the cusp of taking on a workload meant for four people because it’s nearly impossible to hire my federally-required position (lets call it Teapot Auditor). Soon, I’m going to be the last Teapot Auditor left at my company. The workload and deadlines are humanly and mathematically impossible to do with one person. My boss refuses to consider paying me more money on my current 5-figure salary but has floated adding supervisory and training responsibilities for a crop of Teapot Specialists to try to bridge the workload gap … which … would add even more work and responsibility to the workload… without extra pay or a long-term solution to the Auditor problem. So, while I like my job, and I typically like my management team, I’m endlessly back-and-forth debating whether there is a viable or healthy future there. I’m struggling with the idea of leaving a company/job I like because someone else is leaving, but I’m also struggling with my management team’s handling of the situation. This is part rant, part cry for help. Thanks for listening!

    1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      Well, if you did leave, it wouldn’t be “because someone else is leaving”. It would be because you were in an overall unworkable situation, with an unreasonable boss who was doing nothing to fix it.

  132. Lauren*

    Asking about fertility benefits. I live in Mass which mandates coverage for IVF. We were lucky and had our twins on the first try! Now we have a few leftover embryos that we want to use. I ended up in a new job that won’t accept the law because they are in a different state. They are uneducated about their own plan and I don’t feel like fighting this for months and end up with a giant bill because no one knows how to deal with an exception. I just want to find a job that covers IVF. I’ve asked the ‘right’ questions I thought, but the reality is this place is choosing to avoid following the plan they have which mentions that state mandates are an exception. I don’t want to deal with that again so I am looking for companies that offer it and checking their open jobs, but few are hiring my specialty. I am also looking at only employers within the holy grail of IVF mandated states, but again few jobs open in my specialty. I don’t know how to weed these people out beyond my question about fully insured (must follow state mandates) and self insured (does not need to follow state mandates). More often than not, I am applying for remote jobs that don’t have a clue how to interpret their plans or the law though each one mentions the exception – but when it came down to it – my current job although designated as fully insured created their own interpretation of the law and said no. I hate this.

    1. Calliope*

      So at the risk of sounding like a jerk, I think maybe you’re looking at this a little wrong. Yes, the fertility benefits are huge (I say as someone still paying off IVF from a job where I didn’t have them) but frozen embryo transfers are a lot cheaper then a full IVF cycle, even when medicated, and my understanding is that even in mandate states, meds aren’t necessarily covered and definitely not in their entirety. So honestly I’d probably instead look at it as a salary trade off – if you make an extra $5k in salary over a job with a better health plan, that would probably cover at least one FET, maybe two.

      Otherwise, I’d consider looking at state government jobs even in states without mandates, if you’re in a field where that’s a possibility. I have one in a non-mandate state and the fertility benefits are incredible. (Me: you can’t have another child just to use your health insurance fully, right?). I’ve known
      other people in other states who have had that coverage through government jobs too. It just seems better than the private sector in that respect and also better than the federal government even.

      Sadly I think you’re going to be unlikely to get good info on this from anyone you talk to in the hiring process. You really need to see the full plan documents.

      That said, I’m also confused about your current job not following the plan. If the insurance company says state mandates are an exception, than they’re the ones who would approve or deny coverage. Honestly I’d probably try fighting with the insurance company before switching jobs. Maybe even look for an independent advocate on this. Certainly talk to your clinic.

      1. Lauren*

        Meds were covered for us! Salary only goes so far and there is no reason to pay X more than they have to for whatever reason – at least I am talking about real market rate in most conversations. I was very lucky to have the insurance company fight on our behalf at my last job who understood the law for me as a Mass resident even though I was employed technically by a TN company. Everything after deductible was covered and my company then decided to become self-insured as a way to get out of state mandates in the future (the insurance rep privately told me that). So I moved on, but my company now nor the insurance company is willing to fight it and I just can’t have another bill from them claiming I have no insurance at all – let alone about IVF. I don’t believe I will be successful and I don’t want to waste time at my age doing that when I could move on to place that has it. Unfortunately, my job isn’t well suited for a state one though I am now looking at colleges and healthcare, which should help me. Basically looking at any employee with Mass as the headquarters seems to be the way to go, because you are right – I have gotten the plan details and it says state mandate exceptions but they are ignored at this company and I can’t trust them at another. This place is beyond toxic anyway so I want out for that reason too.

    2. Miel*

      The Human Rights Campaign’s Corporate Equality Index will be asking about fertility benefits (and making it available online) starting next year.

      You might try asking for the detailed benefits description and/or speaking to someone in HR or DEI during the interview process.

  133. I edit everything*

    Help! We have a suit emergency. My other half needs a suit for a work event tomorrow, and his is currently at the dry cleaner and won’t be available until Monday. Short of buying a new suit, does anyone have any suggestions? None of our friends are the same size, so borrowing is not an option.

    1. Doctors Whom*

      Call the dry cleaner and beg.

      (Have done, can confirm it has worked on at least one occasion.)

      1. I edit everything*

        Already tried it. I can’t believe our dry cleaner takes a full week to turn stuff around. Seems unreasonable. Even I get my laundry done, folded, and put away faster, and I’m terrible at getting it done.

      1. I edit everything*

        Yeah, but I don’t know if the rental places will have anything we can just walk out with. Worth a shot. Because of scheduling issues, we probably won’t be able to get anywhere until tomorrow morning. Uuuuuuugggghhhh!

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Have you tried any thrift stores? I know you said “short of buying a new suit”, but you might luck out at a second hand shop and find something appropriate for a lower price than new.

      Could he also possibly get away with getting just a new sport coat? If he has appropriate/matching dress pants it’s pretty easy to find a new jacket, which is less expensive than buying a whole new suit.

      1. Becky*

        I just watched “My Cousin Vinny” for the first time last weekend so now ll I can think of is the hand me down suit Vinny wears…

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          A whole store being closed due to the flu rings a lot more believable these days!

        2. Lauren*

          My bf has a 30 inch in seam so pretty short, but living in Boston means plenty of old Italian suits in almost every thrift store because old Italian men are wicked short with amazingly tailored suits. Like gorgeous amazing feels like silk perfectly pristine suits at the Salvation Army. Not as much anymore, but damn there was a time for that when these guys passed away everything they owned went to the thrift store.

    4. TPS reporter*

      Buying seems like a decent option. To only have one suit is a little precarious.

    5. Just a name*

      Even if you buy one, it will likely need to be tailored. At least hemmed. Do you have a local neighborhood group you can ping? Like a local buy nothing group?

    6. PollyQ*

      Does it absolutely, positively HAVE to be a suit? Pressed khakis, button-up shirt, tie, good shoes, and a coordinating blazer are almost as formal (although granted, not quite).

  134. These Are My Formal Jorts*

    Niche request: I am trying to find a reliable source for crew neck sweaters (think J Crew’s Tippi/Margot sweater) and cotton/stretch poplin button up shirts that are plus size, tailored (not oversized), and come in an array of colors and prints. Like, the most basic button up business shirt with no embellishments or weird fabrics or subversive tailoring.

    I have checked the following stores with mild success but am looking for more options: JCP, J Crew, Nordstrom, Eloquii, Ann Taylor, Gap, and Banana Republic, plus the usual round of terrible plus size stalwarts (Lane Bryant, etc.).

    I am just trying to dress like J Crew’s Spring 2012 catalog. :(

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Yes! and be sure to check out their uniform/business line too — there are often more sizes and colors available for basic button shirts than in their regular retail site. It’s “business dot landsend dot com” This is where companies often order bulk uniform shirts for their employees, but you can absolutely order 1 at a time.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Have you checked out reselling/thrifting options? Places like ThredUp and Poshmark are great places to check.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Talbots. Their plus sized selection is robust and they specialize in professional preppy clothing. Personally, some of their stuff is too old lady for me, but their no-iron wrinkle resistant shirts are a mainstay in my closet and their charming cardigan line is also great. Their sizing is generous, so depending on how you’re built you might need to experiment. (I’m a 16W in most brands, but in Talbots I’m a straight 16.)

      1. These Are My Formal Jorts*

        Ooh great! Yes, Talbots does tend to be a little more old lady than me (a mid-30’s weirdo with tattoos) but button ups are obvi an exception.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          They sometimes have super fun prints which could be styled to be super funky if that’s your vibe.

    4. pancakes*

      Tuckernuck, maybe. I think a lot of the clothes they sell could fit the bill but I’m not sure about sizing.

  135. A nona moose*

    For the past few weeks my supervisor has been taking fun, interesting work away from me and giving the projects to himself. I was so upset that I applied to a job and had an interview for it today. In the intervening time, I had a professional development meeting with him and expressed my concerns. This past week he’s been great about ceding control back to me, letting me work on a new issue I said I wanted to do, and even suggested a new project for me to get in on the ground floor of. I think he was just truly clueless as to how what he was doing came across.

    With the job I applied for, I knew I would be taking a hit to my salary. It’s about a 15% hit from $70k to $60k; I did just get a salary raise a month ago, so to be fair it was $66k before. Bonuses are about the same at each job. I’m not sure if I’m going to drop out of the interview process with the other job but if I do, what would be a good way to phrase that? The interviewer knew exactly what company I was coming from and stressed all the ways they were a much smaller operation so as to let me know exactly what I was getting into; I think if I decline she will understand, but I still want to be gracious and not burn any bridges.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      How about something like: “Thank you so much for your consideration, I’ve realized that this move wouldn’t be right for me at this time, so I am withdrawing my candidacy. I really enjoyed talking about [topic] with you, best of luck with filling the role and on [upcoming project or topic mentioned during the interview].”

      Alison has better scripts in the archives for exactly this situation, so definitely check those out! I think as long as you’re polite about it you won’t be burning any bridges. And if withdrawing your candidacy is enough to burn a bridge, then they’ve really shown they’re unreasonable and not someone you would want to work for anyway.

      1. A nona moose*

        Oooh, thank you! I know the interviewer is very busy so I’d want to keep my thank you note short. What you suggested is perfect!

    2. ferrina*

      I’d go with “there’s been some exciting new changes to my role that I couldn’t pass up, but thank you for your consideration! I’ve really enjoyed getting to know you.”

      I’d also keep an eye on the situation at your new job. It may well be totally resolved and a weird anomaly, or it could be a new pattern to watch out for.

      1. A nona moose*

        That’s a good line, too, ty! And totally agreed – I’m waiting to see if my boss “backslides” on what he said he’d do. Fingers crossed it was an anomaly.

  136. I don't know, man, I just don't know*

    I’m on Ask a Manager today looking for advice on relocation and I’ve found some from 10-ish years ago. Previously you’ve written about how hard it is to find a job in a different community, why hiring managers are weary about out of town candidates, offering to pay your own relocation expenses, etc. My question now is, how much of this got changed because of the pandemic and great resignation?

    Here’s my situation, I’m looking to move back to my hometown and applying for the large university there. I’m now a plain jane librarian at a public library with an MLS. But I’ve amassed a pretty decent list of accomplishments and was just promoted to a managerial position. Plus I managed in the past. Now I’m applying for library positions that make me the manager of other professional / librarians. Should I be offering to pay my own relocation costs? Should I be offering to pay to fly myself out for an interview? It would be nice if they paid for these things but I could swing it myself if I had to. Basically, am I at that level yet? Or has the larger hiring crisis made more organizations willing to relocate people?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      In my experience this will 100% depend on the type of library they are and how badly they need you. Academic libraries planning to do a full day long interview should generally pay for your travel costs to that interview and should offer something for relocation. Generally, the relocation offered is a set amount of money- ie: We will pay 5,000 dollars of your relocation rather then covering all costs, because those are super variable. However, public libraries often simply can’t afford to do that, so they may not be able to cover those costs.

      I would NOT volunteer to pay those costs, FYI, I would just be prepared to do so in the cases of public libraries. This has just been my experience, so others may have different experiences to offer.

    2. Miel*

      Ooh, good question.

      I feel like moving back to your hometown is a little different. You already know what the place is like and you have strong ties there, so there’s a lot less concern than if you were, say, moving across the country solely for a job.

      I recommend making it clear that you plan to relocate in your resume and cover letter. (“I plan to relocate to X, my hometown, this summer”) and then maybe see if they offer to pay for interview travel costs. Relocation you can negotiate once you have an offer.

      Good luck!

    3. crazy tuesday*

      also, if you get to negociate moving costs: that money has been taxable, so ends up being less than you think. But, your tax code may vary.

    4. Alexis Rosay*

      My partner works in higher ed and as far as I know, universities don’t usually pay for relocation costs especially for staff positions, but you can always ask.

  137. janitor z*

    My organization (government) has an employee who earns over six figures (one of the highest paid employees in our organization) and was hired without a competitive search. We inherited him from a previous organization that allowed him to move out of state as a remote worker and he has no direct reports. His entire job is to manage contracts, and while he has a JD, he is not serving as our attorney. The problem is that everyone knows he is difficult to work with, and his work affects mine and our ability to serve our constituents. I have to manage across because he has poor organizational skills, and I am far busier than he is. In fact, all my colleagues are–he’s dead weight. He’s obstructionist and takes far too long to complete contract reviews. I know for a fact that he’s under some sort of performance improvement plan because he’s created problems for many people in our organization, but I do not know the specifics. The problem is that the higher-ups think we need to just keep doing our jobs. When I spoke to my boss about this, I was told that no matter where you work you will work with people like him. To that I said, I have been working for over 30 years, and while I have worked with plenty of challenging people, no one has ever gotten in the way of me getting my work done. This directly affects my ability to perform and having to play secretary to a grown-ass man is time-consuming. He’s dropped the ball on time-sensitive matters that also affect my work. He’s an entitled child who thinks that I am always available for a quick phone call even though I spend 40-60% of my time in meetings while he only spends about 5% of his time in meetings. I was told to document, and I said that I have been all year and I will keep doing this. I also mentioned that everyone knows he has a sinecure and that this was bad for employee morale because everyone else works very hard. I was told that people should just focus on themselves. It is hard for me to do so because I have to work with him so frequently and I am continually exposed to his crappy work ethic while my team is drowning in work. I know this all sounds like resentment, and I don’t mean it to be, but I am truly at my wit’s end. Any idea on how to psychologically deal with this besides hoping he either leaves the organization or is reassigned elsewhere, but deep down, I feel like the PIP is lightweight and that we are stuck with him until he retires. Yes, he is not employable elsewhere and he was almost fired from his last position until someone did him a favor and he transferred to our organization.

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      I know you said you’ve been working for 30 years but im not sure how much of that has been in gov.

      The gov answer is, assume you will be stuck with this person as is forever. A department recently fired their head who had been displaying egregious behavior for his entire 20+ years. It took 20+ years to finally fire him and frankly he very well could have never been fired as that was dependent on who he reported to.

      I can tell you what helped me deal with a former boss who bullied me relentlessly and is just generally incompetent. The full answer is therapy, but part of that was deciding to stop fighting it. He was never going to change and I wasn’t going to change him. I accepted that he was going to be the way he is. I knew the responses I would get, I knew the quality of work. Honestly it helped me figure out ways around him, or to anticipate his response so I could already plan next steps.

    2. Observer*

      Your boss is right that you need to stop focusing on what “people think” and “he’s getting away with” whatever.

      DO keep documenting the problems he is causing you.

      DO refuse to play secretary for him. Again, documents what is happening and how it’s affecting your work.

      DO make this your boss’ problem to the extent you can. At the very least, keep cc’ing (or bcc’ing) your boss, his boss and perhaps some grand bosses on correspondence that’s problematic. And when he’s the bottleneck bring it to your boss to solve or prioritize eg “I can do this piece for him but that means I’m not going to have time for that other thing” or “I can’t move forward till he actually does his piece. I don’t have the authority to make him do it”

  138. Rat Mom*

    Hi friends, I need a vibe check. I am currently in an entry-level customer service position where I have had increased responsibility, to the point where I’m essentially managing my two colleagues (I give virtually all feedback and training, I handle day-to-day operations & communicate with other teams and leadership, etc.) I was just contacted by a recruiter via LinkedIn for a senior management position for a similar sort of position, and we just scheduled an interview for the role next week. This is the second management role I’ve been in consideration for– I was also offered a management role for a different company, which I turned down because it was a night shift role, but I did strongly consider.

    I do really want to move into management, so I’m really excited… but also apprehensive. The role I’m interviewing for asks for 5yr experience in a similar role, plus 3 years of management experience… but I’ve literally only been out of college for 3.5 years. Is it a red flag they even reached out to me, or is that just what the labor shortage is doing to people? Should I have screened myself out when I saw how senior the position was? Am I silly for considering a career leap this big? I’m having a really hard time telling imposter syndrome from genuine bad vibes, so I’d love thoughts from more established folks.

    1. Fluffy Fish*

      In no way a red flag and honestly isn’t even necessarily reflective of the job market either.

      There are lots of companies who have desired skills or experience but (smartly btw) are open to considering people who have most of those things, or even have what they deem most important.

      Years of experience is one of those things that is highly dependent on what the experience actually entailed. Smart companies know that someone with 2 years of experience doing work and a very high level is not “less experienced” then someone with 5 years of experience working at a lower level.

      They contacted you. They already saw your resume and still contacted you. Therefore you are qualified for what they are looking for. No need to second guess yourself.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Job postings are often wish lists! Not a red flag in itself, but probe into what will be expected of you, how much support you’ll get, are they actually ok with you not having experience in every part of management or are they going to let you flounder?

  139. Garden Pigeons*

    How would you approach possible jobs with mildly-shady-but-not-awful companies?

    I’m looking for new jobs in tech, and one of the companies I’m interviewing with is alright-but-not-perfect ethically – think “gig economy workers earning below minimum wage” rather than “arms dealers”. It wouldn’t affect my work there and the work sounds interesting (and a ~70% pay bump), versus work that’s not really playing to my strengths at my current place, but would I just be profiting off other people?

    1. A nona moose*

      It sounds like you already know the answer to your own question. For me, I could make double what I make now at a private firm but I work in the public sector because of what I’ve decided to value and prioritize in life.

      I don’t want to tell you want to do because everybody’s situation is different and my approach may not work for you. Take some quiet reflection time to think about what your personal values are and your financial situation. You may wish to run it by a trusted friend or family member. You have to feel comfortable with whatever decisions you make. Good luck!

    2. Purple Cat*

      Only you can answer that question for yourself. So some thought starters:
      How would you feel when you meet someone knew and announce what company you’re working for? Proud, shame, meh
      If they respond with “oh, THAT company? Why would you work THERE?” What answers do you think you’ll have?

      A 70% pay bump is life-changing. Principles are all well and good but they don’t put food on the table. Can you afford to be picky? Counterpoint, in today’s economy, can you get that type of bump at a company with a mission you’re more aligned with? How long have you been looking?

    3. RagingADHD*

      A lot depends on how badly you need the job. You can’t participate in the economy at all without profiting off other people. Most of the things you own were made with underpaid or exploitive labor.

      Personally, if I was in a stable situation and/or had multiple options, I wouldn’t take a job that made me squeamish just because the projects sounded interesting or for potential career advancement. But if I were in a bind and really needed X amount of money ASAP, and it was in this questionable-but-not-awful area, I might take it.

  140. Macaroni Penguin*

    During parental leave I’ve realized that my industry sucks and isn’t going to change. So I’m looking for a new job! How long should I stick with my current job before moving on? Since I’ve been working at Current job for a long time, I don’t want to annoy anybody. I’ll need to use them as a reference in the future, ya know? In case it’s relevant, my parental leave has lasted six months (Canada). Its a good place to work, and the people are awesome. But unfortunately there are societal flaws that make it so my industry (social work) can’t change.

    1. WellRed*

      I’m not a benefits person but if you leave within a certain period of time after parental leave, does that have any sort of ramifications for you?

      1. Macaroni Penguin*

        No, there wouldn’t be any financial ramifications. (My employer does not top up parental leave benefits.)
        I’m more pondering the social cost of returning to work, and theoretically leaving quickly. If I had the chance to work at a better paying fantastic job, I’d take it. But I am concerned that moving on too soon would annoy my supervisor into not providing positive references in the future. Ya know?

  141. Burnt and Trying to break the Cycle*

    Hope this isn’t too late to get some advice.

    I’ve been struggling with ADHD, depression, and anxiety. I *finally* got my doctor to me seriously at my phone appointment yesterday by basically breaking down on the phone with him. And he thinks I should take a break from work for a couple of months so we can figure out meds (why he didn’t figure this out months ago when I was starting the job and told him that working always destroys my mental health, I don’t know). I can go get a note from him on Monday.

    And honestly, I’m good with that. I have the money so I wouldn’t have to work for probably six months. And my current job is poorly managed, chaotic, and disorganized (I still don’t know the full process for essential job functions, I don’t have access to a part of one the essential programs and apparently nobody in my department knows how to get it because I’m not the only one, and I was just told to proofread but given absolutely no training for it). I’ve only been there about three months and I’m a contractor.

    How do I get out of the job without burning bridges with my recruiting agency (who is my actual employer)? Do I *have* to give two weeks notice? If it makes a difference, I’m in California and I believe the recruiting company is in Minnesota.

    1. Burnt and Trying to break the Cycle*

      To be clear, I know California is a right to work state and I’m not legally required to give two weeks notice. But if I don’t how badly is it going to screw me?

    2. Purple Cat*

      You won’t burn a bridge with any reasonable employer by having to go on an immediate medical leave of absence – and to be clear, that’s what this is. You actually have the benefit of being a contractor, it’s always expected that that is less stable. Just be factual, apologize for the short notice, and focus on yourself.

      Good luck!

      1. Burnt and Trying to break the Cycle*

        Thanks. This is all pretty stressful and aggravating

  142. Dr. Prepper*

    As a million miler myself, for overseas trips you can literally wear anything and no one cares. Some show up in business clothes, change into PJ’s and then 45 minutes before landing change back. Others show up in PJ’s with their own pillow under their arm. The advice to have business clothes in your carryon is very smart, also emergency toiletries.
    In business you usually get a goodie bag usually with some oversocks – I put my shoes overhead, put on the socks for on the plane and bathroom, then ditch the socks in the trash before landing.
    The biggest issue will be how you sleep on planes, especially if you have business meetings the day you arrive. Your body will think it’s 2:00 AM if you have a 8:00 AM business meeting. In business you generally get a full recline, sometimes even a lay flat which is great. Bring ear plugs, headphones or whatever works (I have noise cancelling buds and white noise I play from my phone.) Bring a comfortable eyeshade as the cheapies in the goodie bag may not work as well.
    Above all, tell the cabin crew NOT to wake you if you sleep through dinner or whatever, if that’s what you want. Definitely tell them TO wake you for breakfast and coffee.

    Finally, know you will have to crawl over your seat mate if you have the window seat to get to the bathroom while they are sleeping. That’s why I always ask for center aisle seats.

  143. AlreadyBurningOut*

    I’ve been in my role as a therapist for about a year and already feel like I’m starting to burn out. For my experience and licensure level, I am paid pretty well and have a reasonable caseload compared to other agencies in my area who hire those with my level of experience. Leaving my role to go elsewhere doesn’t feel like a good option, I’ve looked at other jobs and they seem even worse pay and caseload-wise.

    I am realizing : 1) this industry is plagued by problems including insultingly low pay considering the amount of education, money, and unpaid time it takes to get started. The expectations feel impossible, the stakes are high, there’s a lack of meaningful support and adequate resources, and there is so much vicarious trauma.
    2) At the same time, I do love the work, and I don’t want to give it up entirely. I have been wondering if maybe I would be happier doing this kind of work half the time and some other kind of work half time.

    Any ideas for well paying, non social-service related careers that someone with my background could transition into without direct experience , that would be likely to have part-time/contract options?

    1. Recovering From Burnout*

      This may sound like it’s completely unrelated, but community management may be worth a look (online community, specifically, in my case). I found myself in a somewhat similar spot with burnout while doing in-person counseling work. Community managers work in any number of areas or topics—a group of people centered around an interest, skill, job-type, issue, ethics, whatever. In my case, I became involved in and started working in a community focused on a group that focused on a hobby that also aligned with a set of values that also had motivated me to pursue counseling in the first place. It uses skills like listening, mediation, sifting through stories for information, collaboration, communication, relationship building/management, inspiring positive behavior, training—and way easier to switch off when the day is done. It’s still work with supporting people (or can be if you choose), but much less emotionally consuming than being a therapist, especially online when you’re interacting through a screen and don’t have control your body language (or spoken language either, ha!). Also, no certifications, exams, or licensure needed!

      I got involved in my community of choice as a pastime, and it took a couple years before I (unexpectedly, tbh) had the opportunity to change it to a job. Positions can be part time or full time depending on the organization. Entry level wages can vary a lot depending on the industry, and career paths can branch out in several directions from it. Websites like The Community Roundtable can give a glimpse at the general type of work across different fields.

  144. To Stare or Not to Stare?*

    I work as a planner in a regional planning organization. There are four of us–another planner, an admin assistant, and our ED (boss). My boss is a sit-in-the-question-and-ponder-type of person where he sits in silence and stares into the void and likes to have someone around to also sit and stare into the void. I DO NOT brainstorm this way. My brain needs other activities in order to be able to process my thoughts and offer any sort of real response. He seems to want me to contribute to his ideas a lot more than my typical, “hm, yeah, sounds like a good plan”. This is really I can offer in the moment. I always need time to process as our work is not process or product related. We very rarely need quick answers and our work is long-range in nature.

    In this setting, what are my moves here? He is a very flexible and reasonable person in general though I’ve only been with this org for three months. I work mostly remotely but he makes remarks from time to time about wishing I could be in more (I live 2 hours away) so he can have these sit-and-stare sessions with me. He hates the phone, he says. The other planner works in a different modality and the admin has remarked that she can’t spare the time he requires to meet his needs of having someone co-sit with him. I’m not keen to drive in this economy to do this with him especially when I cannot simply re-wire my entire brain to suit his needs to brainstorm together.

    1. OtterB*

      Could you Zoom brainstorm in silence? I have some online writer acquaintances who make Zoom dates with other writers to sign on to a meeting and then each work in silence on their own thing, but with virtual company.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Sounds like you need incubation time.

      Can he write down his thoughts and give you a day or two to respond?

    3. OyHiOh*

      I’m the admin in a regional planning organization, although bit larger than yours. Most of our staff work remote or have various hybrid arrangements. The boss is a brainstorm by pacing in my office (mine is bigger than his, but also shared with two of our hybrid staff), and he doesn’t necessarily need me to *participate*.

      I like the Zoom and stare option suggested above: you can get on with other projects while appearing to sit and stare in silence.

    4. nnn*

      I find Teams chats are useful for brainstorming. People who brainstorm by talking through it can talk through it into the chat, people who need distraction can multi-task, when multiple people have ideas at once they can all get them out at once without having to worry about turn-taking and then scroll back and read, when someone has an idea they can go back and add it to the conversation…

      You could pitch the idea of trying it as an experiment- just having an ongoing, open brainstorming conversation in whatever chat medium you use, that you can both add to whenever inspiration strikes.

  145. beentheredonethat*

    So today we had a weekly meeting that was … pleasant… Normally not so much. It’s not my meeting, but I seriously am asking myself what can I do to help encourage this happen more often. So what questions would you ask to clarify what made this meeting work?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Start with what was different about it. What was pleasant about this one? In what way are the others unpleasant?

      1. beentheredonethat*

        Thanks that is helping. The comments were less accusatory and more problem solving.

  146. IrishEm*

    I just sent off applications for two roles that are the next step up from where I’m at right now in terms of both salary and responsibility (32K up to 40K) but it will involve peopke management. I have never had any ambition to be a people manager, but a nonbinary entity has bills to pay. I havent heard, the competition only closed today, but I’m anxious about getting called to one or the other and doing well. I can’t tell my inner imposter to go away, either :(
    Can I get some encouragement please? I’ve never wanted to be a people manager but I’m constantly told I’d be good at it… I don’t know if I even want to leave the role Im in. I am confuse.

    1. fueled by coffee*

      I actually think you’re in a great spot to think about this job! If you’re asked for an interview, you can ask for more details about the day-to-day of the job, whether there’s training or professional development to build management skills, etc.

      From your post, it sounds like you just never really considered management — if it’s the case that you actively *don’t* want to manage people, then you might consider turning down the job. But if you’ve just never tried it before… that’s what asking good questions about the role during interviews is for!

      1. IrishEm*

        That’s exactly right, I never considered it, my first job I said my first week I wanted management and got repeatedly talked out of it (they wanted me where I was because I was good where I was) and it dented my confidence.

        I’ll definitely have to think what kind of questions to be asking *if* I get called to interview. Thank you!!

    2. WellRed*

      Interviewing for either position may make it much clearer what you want even if neither of these works out.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      The interview is the time to ask hard questions of them. You can collect up more information and then decide. Go one step at a time here.

      1. IrishEm*

        Sound advice. I tend to not be in the present and more in the future thinking about worst case scenarios, I need to think like this!

  147. Invisible today*

    Is this as awful as I think it is ?
    I was in a group virtual meeting with my boss and one other person and we were brainstorming ways to solve a technical problem. I mentioned some tools that I know how to use that would solve the problem effectively. My boss objected, saying that he didn’t want to use any tool that was dependent on one person (as if people cant learn). Then he came out with this gem… “If you decide to have another kid and go on maternity leave, then I’m in trouble”. WTF why should that even be a factor (im past my childbearing prime) ???? Been at an org notorious for mommy-tracking before. Escaped with the scars…

    Thank goodness for cameras off and the mute button because I lost it. Cried all afternoon. Eventually I decided to email him to say how disappointed upset I was that he would even consider making business decisions based on the hypothetical reproductive plans of a female employee. His reply wasn’t all that much better.

    He said that he didn’t mean to be sexist and he supported moms in the workforce blah blah blah. Then he popped out with gem number 2 of saying that he was trying to think of a positive reason that I’d leave and that welcoming a bundle of joy was more cheerful than being hit by a bus or having cancer.

    I don’t even know what to say. Could I imagine him saying something like this to my male colleague taking paternity leave ? Nope. Am I sad and disappointed, heck yeah.

    Am I overreacting to think this is hopeless ???

    1. RagingADHD*

      It’s pretty awful, especially because the whole, “if you got hit by a bus” is just a common idiom that nobody takes seriously. It’s not a hex, why would he use something like this instead?

      Apparently he hasn’t realized that being sexist, racist etc isn’t about what you *meant* to do. It’s what you *actually* do that matters.

    2. Disco Janet*

      I do think you’re taking this much more seriously than necessary. The point you put in parentheses – that other people can learn to use the tool as well – would have been my main response. Because while his example was poorly chosen, he’s completely right that things happen and people leave jobs all the time, so it makes sense to not become reliant on a tool that only one person at the company knows how to use.

    3. WellRed*

      What he said was thoughtless and sexist ( of course he’d never say it to a man) but I’d try to give another chance if this is the first time he’s done this. I do think crying all afternoon is a bit…intense. What is it you think is hopeless? Boss? Your job? Womens equality?

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yeah, that’s a good point. It is a really unusually intense reaction to someone saying something like that. His weasely response to being called out would piss me off and damage my respect for him. But this sounds like grief, which is odd.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The happy reason for leaving a job can be along the lines of ” winning a bizillion dollars and running away to [tropical island].”

      Your boss sounds like a klutz. He may not have meant to be sexist but he is not TRYING to be inclusive either.

      Here’s the part that gets me: Crying all afternoon. This is a quality of life issue. If this reduces you to tears all afternoon then this goes to quality of life. I’d suggest thinking about therapy. I’d also suggest thinking about a new job but I think you need to sort out the past a little first. One thing you could do on your own is read about how other people are handling such comments.

      It’s in keeping with my personality and so not everyone can do this, but one thing I would want to say to this boss is “If you would not say X to a man then you should not say it to a woman either.”

      I have worked for just over 40 years now and I see for a fact that this stuff does not go away. Worse, women can be just as offensive to other women. Start to collect up go-to statements that you will use. Start to figure out when you will speak up and when you will let it go. One of my fav go-to’s is “That’s not cool.” Another strategy is to not make yourself stay in a truly toxic setting- extract yourself. Once you see how things are be your own best advocate and get yourself OUT don’t hang on for months/years waiting for it to get better.

      I’d also suggest taking a look at what else is going on here.
      The boss does not like new ideas?
      The boss can’t figure out how to implement new ideas?
      The boss does not want growth and improvement?

      Just from the little you have here, I am already not impressed with this boss. At all.

    5. Invisible today*

      Oh I know that crying all afternoon was a bit much. His comment hit me right in a major trigger – my previous toxic boss / workplace was notorious for mommy-tracking young women sometimes even before they had kids (it could start as soon as a woman got married). My current boss does not know any of that (the crying or the previous boss) and I’m not stupid enough to tell him. I’m not thrilled with him for many reasons but this was egregious.

      1. River Otter*

        You are reacting to your old situation rather than your current situation, which is understandable. It’ll take some work to stop reacting to your old situation, especially when your current situation is showing the same symptoms.

        I recommend emailing back something along the lines of, “I’m sure you did not mean to be sexist. Sometimes our words land in ways that we did not think about before saying them, and that always gives us a chance for self-reflection. Winning the lottery is a great positive reason to leave a job that you could say to anyone. Maybe that can be your go to?”

        Then save the exchange to your harddrive and also print it out and store it somewhere that locks. The next time something similar happens, take both incidents to HR or to his boss, if you feel like that would lead to a constructive outcome.

  148. Trixie*

    I’m seeing a pattern at work, and unsure how to tackle or alter the dynamic. We establish clear deadlines for our leaders on various items week to week. Our items are then to be shared with our Leader, yet repeatedly the work is not complete. In their defense, I know these leaders have a lot on their plates but they also have a team to delegate or are encouraged to hire the team they need.

    We have to continually keep after these leaders (well-paid executives with VP in their titles) to get the project completed, but it’s at the last minute and requires our time to basically babysit. Ideally the leaders would have stronger deputies or staff to help them meet their deadlines, but it’s falling to me and colleagues as we support the Leader directly. What is it that these leaders will do the work if forced to in a collective Zoom setting? It feels like a parent having to sit with a teenager to get their homework done.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Sounds like the Zoom meetings will continue until cooperation is achieved.

      Why not just have an automatic zoom meeting each week?

  149. Lurker*

    Should prospective employers know about your last day of work? I signed an offer letter recently and after a week, got the final approval. The HR contact just said “please don’t tender your resignation yet as we are in the process of finalizing your letter.” I didn’t tell her I resigned from my current company on the same day I sent my signed offer letter to her. Did I mess up?

    1. SG*

      Did the offer letter come from this same HR contact? Either way, it’s possible she didn’t know you already received the letter or is confused, i.e. if she’s hiring for several positions at the same time.
      I would just respond and explain that you’ve already received and signed an offer letter, and based on having received final approval (from the hiring manager?), you’ve already submitted your resignation to your employer. Ask if she could clarify what she means when she says they are still finalizing your letter, given that you’d already received an offer letter.

      1. Lurker*

        I got the offer letter from her, yes. It went like this. I received offer letter, signed it. Talked to my managers to let them know I officially resigned. Sent signed offer letter to HR contact. Resignation is confirmed. HR contact emails me to say that she is at the final stage of approval, and suggests that I don’t resign until senior HR signs my offer letter. I chose not to tell her that I already sent in my resignation.

        For what it’s worth, it’s already confirmed and I’m set with a start date. I’m wondering if I could have done any differently, since I saw the written offer letter as a confirmation that I got the job. I just didn’t think that it had to be approved by senior management for it to be actually confirmed.

        1. SG*

          No, you interpreted the situation the way any other reasonable person would. As long as they knew you were accepting the offer, it should be a done deal. That’s weird that she told you not to resign yet — if senior HR hadn’t approved your offer, I can’t imagine why they’d send it in the first place. You should be fine and certainly have no reason to question how you read the situation.

        2. Cj*

          Do they do a background check that needs to be completed before you start? That’s the situation I’m in, and while I don’t foresee any issues with the background check, and there is a tentative start date based on assuming I pass, I would never give notice before I was sure the job was mine.

          I just worked for myself this tax season, so there is no where I need to give notice to and it was easy to set a tentative start date.

  150. I'm just here for the cats*

    I hope I’m not too late for some people to see this. I work at a University and we are hiring for a few positions. Must.and another coworker will be having dinner with one of the candidates the night before their interview. Any suggestions? Topics that would be good. This would be a mental health counselor

    1. SG*

      What is the purpose of the dinner? If it’s just a get-to-know-you, you could ask them what makes their work meaningful to them or rewarding, what kind of culture they like to work in. what their favorite past job was and why, what they enjoy doing in their spare time, etc. Not exactly interview questions, but interview-adjacent. You could also talk about your roles and your work culture, what you do and don’t like about working there, etc.

  151. Definitely Hiding*

    I got a new boss right before covid. I was thrilled that Old Boss was moving to a different team/project, but not thrilled to be working under New Boss. She was promoted from our team and was originally hired into a role a level up from mine. She told me often that she’d been a manager at her previous job. Once she took it upon herself to butt into an issue between me and another coworker and dressed me down in front of coworker, then went to Old Boss to report my behavior, including the fact that I’d just walked away from her after she lit into me. (I had no intention of escalating into an argument with her and I didn’t report to her anyway, and neither did anyone else then.)

    When she got promoted I decided to give it a chance and set a time frame. The time period passed, then a little more time, and I faced the fact that it was time to start looking. Then boom! Covid. I’m very glad to have my job when so many others were suffering. And I sure didn’t (and still don’t yet) feel safe in getting out there job hunting yet.

    One thing that really gets me is that more than once she’s brought up finding me some stretch opportunities. First we talked about an area in which I had experience from previous jobs (say, chocolate lama design) and I said I was interested. Then, in the next staff meeting she announced that another team member (higher level than me) would be working with the lama design team. Sometime late I got up the nerve to approach her about my getting some projects, she made agreement noises, and…nothing. She recently did a self-assessment and one outcome was realizing she should delegate more and asked if I’d like her to see what she could hand off to me. Once again I said I’d be very interested, once again nothing. So I broached it with her. Her response: When she offered she thought my duties were going to decrease, but they aren’t so I already had a full plate.

    Insights, anyone? Thank you!

    1. ecnaseener*

      My main insight is that it’s past time to start job-hunting. I don’t understand why you feel it’s unsafe — you can take as long as you need, there’s no downside to looking except for the time and effort.

      Have you told her that getting stretch assignments is important to you even if it means you have a heavier workload to manage?

  152. Anonnie*

    I wanted to ask if anyone has been fired from a job with cause and how does that affect your job search and how do you managed to find future employment?

    I am asking in the context that the job is not health-related, but the cause is from a mistake that is embarrassing to the company’s reputation because of a negligent/reckless behavior.

    Can one still apply for the job in the same field after making reckless mistake? Or is it better to apply for a job in a different field?

    1. PollyQ*

      Even medical professionals who’ve killed patients by clear malpractice get new jobs, so I don’t think you’ll need to leave the field entirely. The key is going to be fully acknowledging what you did wrong, what you’ve learned from the experience, and what steps you’ve taken to make sure you won’t make that kind of mistake again. Some employers will disqualify you for it, but all you need is one that’s willing to give you a second chance.

  153. Alison M*

    I missed the unprofessional confessions thread and wanted to share my own unprofessional moment — hope that doesn’t violate any rules! It’s long but….here goes.

    Over 20 years ago, I enlisted in the Army (rather than getting commissioned as an officer, even though I had a college degree and 2+ years of PhD work under my belt at that point) for a highly specialized job with a nearly 2-year training program, during which you would have one week of “class break” where you could take time off (in addition to a week over Christmas/New Year’s). Other than that, due to the intensive training schedule, you couldn’t take even a single day of leave.

    The Army holds Soldier of the Month/Quarter/Year competitions at almost every echelon, and the winner moves on to the next higher level. This consists of the soldier, in her dress uniform, going before a board of high-ranking enlisted leaders who take turns grilling her on Army regulations, soldier skills, and general knowledge. It’s quite intense, and winning one of these boards is considered to reflect well on your unit and leadership.

    It turns out I happened to be very good at memorizing regulations, making up answers that sounded just like regulations, and keeping my “military bearing” at the same time. So, I thus worked my way up through a series of boards until I was up for a huge one, the installation-level Solider of the Year. It was a joint-service installation, which meant regulations, history, and skills from all 5 uniformed services were fair game, and my unit leadership was thrilled to have a solider at this board for the first time in more than 20 years.

    Unfortunately, the board was scheduled on the Friday of my one week of class break. The first sergeant actually revoked my leave for that week, refusing to let me leave at all for fear I would somehow miss the board. I was beyond furious and felt this was monumentally unfair — why couldn’t I leave and just come back Wednesday or Thursday?

    So, I started joking with people that if I got asked a question about why I should win the board I would joke about having telekinetic powers. For whatever reason, I was so entertained by my (at least to me) witty joke that I must have repeated it 20 times that week.

    Finally, the board day came, and I was the first one called in, along with my platoon sergeant. In front of me were the highest-ranking enlisted personnel on post of five military branches, each a distinguished-looking professional with giant rows of awards and badges on their uniform. After the usual marching me around the room, I was instructed to sit, this soldier of less than one year with a nearly bare uniform.

    The first question, “So, Specialist [myname], why do you think you should be Servicemember of the Year?” And before I could stop myself, I answered with the answer I had rehearsed all week in my jokes: “Well, Sergeant Major, there’s always my telekinetic powers!” I was so stunned that I’d actually said those words to these high-ranking individuals that I didn’t even blink, flinch, or blush, and I launched into my prepared answer without missing a beat.

    Off to the side, I saw my platoon sergeant turning absolutely purple with rage and embarrassment! I was sure they’d throw me out of the board for being so impertinent, but they actually finished the rest of the board, then we were dismissed to the hallway to wait while the other candidates had their turn.

    My platoon sergeant chewed me up one side and down the other for the next two hours, and I spent a large amount of that time wondering if going AWOL would be sufficient to escape the humiliation. Finally, all the candidates were called back in to hear the results.

    Reader, I won the board. I even got a cool proclamation from the local city council and a set of dress blues! But my platoon sergeant never forgave me for that comment. The story actually became a legend in our small, specialized job, and even years later, people would say “Are you THAT [lastname]?!?” when meeting me, or tell me the story and then be gobsmacked when I admitted I was the idiot featured in it.

    Moral of the story: what you practice is what’s going to come out of your mouth when it’s the real thing!

  154. Striped Sandwiches*

    There’s a really great speaking opportunity coming up soon which I’ve seen. Id like to speak at it, but should I offer it to my boss first? Neither of us are guaranteed a spot but we both worked on a project which I think would make a great topic. He likely wouldn’t know about the opportunity unless I tell him.

    We’re both good speakers. He speaks at conferences much more than I do, but I still do speak at some. From an audience perspective, He has more gravitas as the boss. I have more technical expertise and “diversity”. What’s your take on it?

    1. PollyQ*

      Take it yourself! You don’t owe your boss career opportunities. If anything, he should be looking for ways to help you promote yourself.

  155. Make it anon*

    There are big dumb changes potentially coming down the pipeline at my company. These are Hill to Die on changes that I don’t even know where they’re coming from, they’re bad for all the stakeholders. If they go through I might have to quit; if I fight them too hard I might get fired. Just… wish me luck.

  156. Rosy*

    My large-ish company (500 corporate employees and thousands of field workers) awarded a handful of corporate employees some awards/honors for exemplary service and work over the past year. Each of these awards came with a monetary bonus. To be clear, I feel that each of these employees absolutely deserved the award. One of the award categories was for “best team”, and it was awarded to two separate teams, where each of the employees on those teams got $1K. I work very, very closely with one of the awarded teams–I am essential to their success over the last year and my role was created in part to take some of what I do off of their plates (i.e. I am a teapot designer and they are in teapot sales/supply chain; before I arrived they were essentially responsible for their own teapot design). I am not technically on their team (I report to another team manager) but my role is one that works with a lot of different teams just as closely. I’m feeling a little salty that I didn’t get awarded as part of this team, and I know for a fact that I contribute more to their team than at least one of the other teammates (I fully understand this last point is petty). Is this worth bringing up to my boss? I have no idea what my boss can do about this. I just feel slighted. Do I just need to get over it?

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