open thread – July 22-23, 2022

by Alison Green on July 22, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

    How to proceed after initially asking the “with my role expanding, is there a plan to review my title and compensation that better reflect these responsibilities?” question? This would be after telling your boss you want to be promoted to the next level and where you want your career to grow. In my case, I told my boss I want to be promoted and where I want my career to grow, so he said he’s going to let me work more on the areas I want to grow, with the junior team members taking some of my smaller tasks. Additionally, there is no defined measurable achievements our company has to promote people.

    My actual question is, how do I basically say I only want these extra responsibilities if I get promoted? How much should I try to get a conversation around getting promoted with these new responsibilities before just taking it and taking those current responsibilities at my current level, and THEN bringing it up within 6 months (annual review) to make a case for a promotion?

    Which also begs the question of should you be promoted immediately with new responsibilities or given new responsibilities and ensuring you can perform them before making a case for a promotion?

    So after I ask “with my role expanding, is there a plan to review my title and compensation that better reflect these responsibilities?”, should I wait to actually do these new responsibilities once I’m promoted or given a promotion plan? How should I relay that? Maybe: “I’m a little wary of taking on the work of a higher role without having that title and pay. I don’t mind getting trained and helping out, but I want to make sure that if I’m doing more of the work of that position, or doing it for more than a short time, my title and pay reflects that.”

    1. hamsterpants*

      Define timelines and success criteria for each step. As you discuss with your boss, write it down. I like to share my screen for this kind of discussion to avoid any plausible deniability. Then share your notes and schedule the follow up meetings.

      Decide now what you will do if your responsibilities increase but the date for your raise comes and goes.

      1. New Mom*

        This is really good advice. I’ve seen it at my company where people just get more and more work dumped on them with no compensation. I was forced to take on an entire new department, and it is not a department that can help with my actual work, its completely different and not taking any work off my plate, just adding and my boss was offended when I asked for compensation for it. Pretty demoralizing. But unfortunately my company still pays way better than competitors and gives much, much more generous PTO so I had to just accept it and now I’m in my really busy season and unfortunately have a new direct report who needs my support for a whole new set of issues.

    2. Just Your Everyday Crone*

      If you don’t get a promotion within X time, I assume you’ll look for a different job? If that’s the case, then I think having the lower title + the additional responsibilities will position you better than having the lower title without those responsibilities. IOW, is having the responsibilities a resume-builder that you can leverage into a new position if this company fails you? If so, I’d take the responsibilities, do well, and ask for the promotion at the review time.

    3. Fabulous*

      Something a boss told me recently is that you generally won’t get a promotion until you are up-to-speed on the tasks and proving that you can do the work.

      When you want a promotion, follow the 70/20/10 rule – “individuals obtain 70% of their knowledge from job-related experiences, 20% from interactions with others, and 10% from formal educational events.” So you’re already working on the related experiences, but you’ll likely have to exhibit the interactions and training aspects as well to fully be considered for the official promotion. Chances are you’re going to have to do the duties for a while before the change will be effective.

      But regarding your question specifically, I like the script you have in your last paragraph. Maybe add something about developing a specific timeline so you have deadlines and specific dates to shoot for to align everyone’s expectations when when things should start happening.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Ugh I hate this framework (no fault to you, I’ve heard it too) – and it leaves employees very vulnerable if you’ve already been doing the job for a certain amount of time at the lower rate of pay, without the official title or the pay. Companies used to invest in training workers, now they expect workers to invest in training themselves :(

        1. Fabulous*

          Yeah, totally agree with this. Shortly after my boss gave me this insight into this management method, our org changed its promotions process and now employees can’t even be promoted in-role anymore. You have to apply for a totally separate role. So unless someone on your team in a higher version of the same role as you leaves, you’re SOL unless you want to move somewhere else in the org.

        2. Fran Fine*

          Yeah, I’ve never seen this play out in any company I’ve worked for, thankfully, because I get promoted a lot and would not be doing the job without securing the additional pay increase and title change first, lol. That just seems like a surefire way to get used these days.

      2. Ginger Pet Lady*

        I also absolutely HATE that mentality that “you won’t get promoted until you’re already doing the job” – for a couple reasons:
        1. Company gets higher level work out of employees without compensating them properly.
        2. Company expects employees to somehow train themselves and learn new tasks and responsibilities – and do it perfectly to avoid ruining their chances of being promoted! – without the company taking any responsibility for training employees.
        3. There is absolutely no guarantee that once you start doing the higher level work the promotion and pay will EVER come through. The company has zero motivation to pay you more when they can get more from you at a lower pay.
        Not sure where you got that “rule” you’re talking about. Seems completely made up. But just for funsies, let’s pretend it’s real and the percentages are accurate. If it is real, do you think the order matters? Do you think, for example, that people should learn to drive a car by spending 70% of the training time first driving without supervision, then 30% driving with someone alongside them interacting with them, and then finally 10% of the training time in a classroom learning the rules of the road? Seems silly, doesn’t it? That’s why *before* we let new drivers on the road, they need the formal learning and the training support of having an instructor (or parent) with them. Sequencing and training matter, even if you accept the premise that it’s a small percentage.
        With a promotion, should be the same. Someone gets promoted, gets training in how to do their job, peer or mentor support for a bit, and **then** can do the new role effectively.
        So again, not realistic to expect people to do the job BEFORE they have the job.

        2. Hannah Lee*

          Great points GPL!

          I’ll also add #4 (or 3b), which I’ve been bit by before.
          Even if they do come through with the promotion because you’ve been in a more junior position, and because though you’re performing the responsibilities of the new position but likely without the normal training, plus of some nonsense about pay grades and arbitrary raise caps some employers not offer you the same compensation as someone coming into the position as a new hire.

          So, you, the employee, may be striving to pick up lots of new responsibilities and doing them well enough for the company to want to hire you for the role. But instead of getting a salary of say, $100,000 which is the norm for that higher role, they only will offer you $80,000. Which may be more than what you’re making now, but is not the going rate for that higher responsibility position. You may not have even wanted that expanded, harder role for that lower rate and wouldn’t have bothered striving for it. And if you do accept it, reasoning something is better than nothing and heck you’re already doing that job, then every. single. raise, bonus, compensation-based perk is going to be calculated based on a compensation rate that’s 20% less than what the pay for that position should have been.

          You’ll never make up the difference in that role with that company.

          2. Hannah Lee*

            And when I was bit by that … getting offered less than what I should have been offered with the “official” promotion, I took it. But mentally I shifted gears.

            I figured a) the company, my manager were okay with stringing me along, implying if I picked up XYZ and did it successfully, I’d get promoted to Sr Position without telling me that I wouldn’t be getting the current Sr Position pay and b) if they thought that I was only worth 80% of the pay of that position, I was only going to give them 80% of my effort for that position, instead of the 110% I’d been giving … fair’s fair, right? 80% for 80% (and my 80% was equal to 100% of the other Sr Position people in terms of quality and output, so it’s not like I was slacking by normal standards; I was just no longer going to kill myself, or my team, for the heck of it)

            And then I started focusing on what I needed to do to find a new position out of that company, and within a year I had. One that was much less stressful, and paid me what I was worth.

            Also, I filed away in my “how to be a good manager” toolkit the knowledge that a great way to DEmotivate a previously very highly motivated conscientious employee is to “promote” them in title and responsibilities, but then make it clear you don’t value them enough to compensate them the same as all the other people doing the same job. (and bonus demotivating points if the newly promoted employee is a different, less privileged demographic than all the other higher paid people)

        3. River Otter*

          What you are arguing is that people should be hired into a role that they have never done before and don’t know how to do. That’s not how it works when applying to a new job at a new organization and that is not how it works when applying to a higher level role in the same organization. If you don’t have the experience to demonstrate that you can do the job, you don’t get the job.
          As with applying for new jobs at new organizations, you should have at least some percentage of the skills listed for the role which can be either because you have directly done those responsibilities or because you have done different responsibilities with applicable skills.
          Jobs are not like college classes. In college, once you have demonstrated that you have mastered the material in calculus one, you go onto calculus two. That is not how jobs work. You don’t get promoted into teapot painter 2 just because you have mastered all the material in teapot painter 1. You have to be performing in an exemplary fashion as a teapot painter 1 and be performing some of the skills in teapot painter 2 BEFORE you get promoted into teapot painter 2.

        4. New Mom*

          oh I can add one:
          4. IF and when you do finally get the promotion, you are then required to take on MORE responsibilities to make the pay increase “worth it” to the employer.

        5. Books and Cooks*

          I mean…all rules are “made up,” aren’t they?

          It sounds to me like what Fabulous is referring to is one of those general guidelines often given in business- or life-advice books or seminars. They’re just meant to be helpful things to keep in mind to help you make decisions or organize your life or plan your time, and are generally more philosophical than they are actual set rules. (Like “the 80/20 Rules,” that says 80% of outcomes come from 20% of causes, or “the Rule of 72,” which is a way to calculate how long it will take to double an investment.) Personally, I think it sounds rather interesting, and I’d certainly agree that for me, in my previous jobs and in my career, it’s fair to say that 70% of it I learned by just doing, 20% being coached, and 10% through reading books (or advice columns) or other materials designed specifically to help people improve at whatever task.

    4. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      At OldJob my boss and I had to come up with a professional development plan and new title and job description for said title (since one did not exist). She had me write up the description, and promotion plan. Once I had that and she agreed, it was sent to HR to approve.

      To get to the point for you, I’d definitely have written down a new job description, and if you’re doing those things, then ask the boss when the title change and new salary will go into effect.

    5. MicroManagered*

      I really like the way you phrased it except I’d change “is there a plan” to “what is the plan”? I think it’s perfectly fine to say “I only want these extra responsibilities if there is a concrete plan to have this reflected in my job title and of course, my compensation, within a reasonable timeframe.”

    6. River Otter*

      Realistically speaking, you have to be performing at the higher level before you can get the promotion. That doesn’t mean you have to be performing 100% at the higher level, but you do have to be performing more than 0% at the higher level.
      Think of trying to get a promotion as though you were applying for a new job. If you can meet 60% of the description/higher level duties, you should apply/ask for a promotion.
      I would separate that conversation from asking for a raise. You should be better compensated as you take on higher level duties.

    7. Not that kind of doctor*

      Naturally, this will depend on how your workplace will react to you holding the line, but the script you have at the end is exactly how I’d handle it with my boss, and in fact I’m navigating something similar right now. My boss and her boss are amazing and supportive, but the head of our group has a long history of trying to make any change of duties or promotion-like thing contingent on tacking on WAY more work than is justified, and I’m just not going to let that happen. I’m taking the rhetorical approach that me shifting duties solves a problem that they need solved, and I’m interested in doing the new work, but it has to be a change for the better for me. Dangle the carrot of you being able to do these things they need done. If you’re pretty confident they won’t fire you or just give the work to someone else without further conversation if you decline, you have leverage: if you don’t take on the new responsibilities, they’ll feel the pain of having to find someone else to do it. Make it the easier choice to sweeten the pot for you.

      1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

        “you have leverage: if you don’t take on the new responsibilities, they’ll feel the pain of having to find someone else to do it. ”

        How do I say “no” though?

        1. River Otter*

          You don’t. Not if you actually want the promotion. Instead, you talk about is how your compensation is going to be changed since you will be performing at a higher level in the role that you have.

  2. Working abroad!*

    There was discussion a few weeks ago that no one cares about your experiences working abroad when you move back home. I care! Tell me your stories!

    What was the workplace culture like? Did you have funny or embarrassing culture shocks? How was it for your partner? What do you wish you had known?

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I’m from the US and lived in France for a few years, as did my partner. It was… extremely challenging. The work culture is just so different. Without getting into all the details and turning this into the rant, things that would have literally gotten you fired in the US are commonplace in France. It was very sexist and racist (and by that I mean that both individuals displayed problematic behavior but also that the systems were set up against women and minorities). You also do not get any vacation days the first year you are employed and you don’t get paid for sick days unless you have a doctor’s note (both of these are laws to my knowledge). I was really shocked at that last part – I had never worked somewhere where your boss doesn’t believe that you are actually just too sick to come in and you need a doctor’s signature to prove that. My place of employment in particular also did not allow any work from home until I arrived. My boss allowed this, and whenever I’d come back from a work from home day, my coworkers would not believe that I was actually working. I ended up sending a million emails for silly reasons every time I had to work from home just to prove to everyone that I was working. HR was also a mess – over half the months that I was there, I got paid incorrectly (same thing for my partner). They also don’t have to pay you within a reasonable timeframe of working, so I got paid 2-3 months after I had actually worked.

      In terms of living there, well, it was also challenging. It’s a very hard culture to integrate into. The other expats I knew were either stay-at-home spouses, were in school, or had their own businesses, so it was hard to find a community dealing with the things we dealt with. Because of the widespread sexism and racism, things that shouldn’t happen to you happen all the time. For example, when we first arrived, we went into a store that had a sale on. It was a clear 2 for 1 kind of deal. They wouldn’t give us the deal even though the people ahead of us got it. They just refused. Stores would refuse to give me a loyalty card. That sort of thing happened a lot.

      A lot of people have great experiences in France, but some don’t, and I was definitely in the latter group.

      I’ve also lived in Ireland for a few years and the experience is so much more positive. It’s all the good things of working in the US plus more vacation and better healthcare options.

      1. not a doctor*

        Wow, I NEVER would have guessed the French work culture was like that. No vacation days for a year?? No sick days without a note?? OMG.

        2. Been There*

          I think it might be because your vacation days are calculated based on how much you’ve worked the year before? That’s the system we have in Belgium, but with special systems in place for people just entering the workforce.

      2. j'ai eu de la chance*

        Hmm, I work in France and have 10 weeks holiday, also in the first year, so I don’t think this is universal.

        I also work with an almost entirely female team and our workplace is anything but sexist.

        And the work cantine serves cheese plates, as you might expect.

        1. Expat in FR*

          Not having vacation in the first year of a job in France is NOT the norm. It’s actually illegal. Also we get a minimum of 5 weeks of paid vacation here. You may need a doctor’s note to get sick leave, but there is unlimited sick leave. I have worked here for 13 years and wouldn’t trade it for the US for anything. Amazing work-life balance, fully subsidized healthcare, and guaranteed paid maternity leave.

          1. GreatMindsThinkALot*

            Was just about to say that, I also worked in France (though about 15 years ago now!) and that was the case for me, got my annual leave straight away and also could take a few hours here or there for personal errands without using my annual leave.

            Sick leave for me did require a doctors note, which was a bit annoying but I had a doctor surgery nearby who would always just write me a note for 5 euro without needing an appointment.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Yeah, there used to be someone from Paris in my chat room and she had tons of annual leave. I remember a conversation we had regarding employer PTO where she called the US “barbaric” in this regard.

      3. Linda*

        My sister and her husband have been living in Paris for 3 years and their experience with racism and sexism is pretty similar to yours. They are both POCs and the racism is so much more blatant and acceptable in France than the US that it’s hard for them to live with. They are in the process of moving back to the US, not just because of the racism, the other big reason is financial. They both took pay cuts moving from NYC to Paris but the cost of living is higher and there are fewer career opportunities for both of them, so it’s just not worth it for them to live there.

      4. Kate*

        I have worked abroad in both Belgium and France (amongst other places) and I would echo a lot of this (although not the days off)

        I speak French like a native, so I was not expecting the level of culture shock that I had. I would say that after three years in each, I never quite adjusted to it.

        The racism is shockingly real, the ableism too. In general, I would say both countries have a very rigid idea of what it means to “be” Belgian or French, and minorities of any kind do not fit that norm.

        On the sick days thing— I found it more nuanced than portrayed here. At least in Belgium, a doctor’s note is required because your company legally HAS to give you the time off required by the doctor. I wound up off two weeks because of a sprained knee, which is wayyyyy more than I would ever have in North America, but it was wonderful to have that time to heal and not be expected to haul myself into the office— by law.

      5. Books and Cooks*

        “…things that would have literally gotten you fired in the US are commonplace in France. It was very sexist and racist (and by that I mean that both individuals displayed problematic behavior but also that the systems were set up against women and minorities).”

        My husband and I found this was the case in England, as well. He had a coworker at one place who was married to an African woman, and when the company’s owner found out, he and his second-in-command started actively trying to get the man to quit (and looking for reasons to fire him in case he didn’t). A female employee and a friend had tried on swimsuits during their lunch hour one day and taken pictures of each other to help make decisions, and another male employee took the phone off her desk, copied the pictures, and emailed them around–he set one as his screen background, too. No consequences at *all.* At another workplace, management reacted with laughter at the idea of hiring a non-white person, and basically told my husband to forget it when he tried to do just that. Several employees there thought it was “hilarious” to use the N-word around my husband because it was so silly and stupid of him to be offended by it (he is white, but no decent person wants to hear that word, obviously, at least not in the office [I’m thinking specifically of rap concerts or something here, not saying it’s cool to hear it as long as it’s not in the workplace]). They didn’t just use it to describe people, either, but an actual color, which they delighted in calling “plain old n-word brown.” Female employees were regularly hit on by clients and coworkers alike; one Director had a reputation for being handsy with female employees (and the wives of employees, cough cough). There was nothing anyone could do about any of this.

        And this is all just off the top of my head, and only workplace-related incidents and not things I saw/heard socially or just out-and-about (and especially not things I saw/heard/heard about happening at our daughters’s schools, which, omg); I could remember and list a lot more if I had a few minutes. It always irritates me and makes me want to laugh when I hear people talk like the US workplace is a hotbed of open racism and sexism, and that other countries are so much more enlightened and those things don’t exist there. Yes, I’m sure a few of them are, but many more definitely are NOT.

        (And btw, I loved England, I still do, I spent a decade of my life there and would move back in a heartbeat. It’s not like *everyone* there is this way, at all. Just that it did happen fairly often, and it was shocking how few protections there are in the workplace and how much went on that would never, ever fly in the US.)

        1. Cordelia*

          I wonder if this whole thread is going to be “but that’s not universal, I think that’s just where you worked”. Because I am in England, and absolutely this would not fly in my workplace or anywhere I have ever worked, and there are protections and laws against it. We most certainly do have horrendous racism, but overt racism at work in the way that you describe is definitely not the norm everywhere, and neither legal nor accepted.

      6. Anon for this*

        My company was purchased by a large french company and while I can’t speak to their HR policies, man, were they all racist and sexist! Our CEO literally had to have conversations with their senior management about how you can’t say xyz about abc types of people. I was really appalled

    2. AnonSinceThisIsIdentifiable*

      I worked in Zambia for a year. It’s not a straight-up “I got a normal job in Zambia,” because I was working with an international NGO, but I was placed in a local partner organization, had a boss there, lived in company housing (not super common there, but this org had some), etc. (Mind you, something like 80% of Zambians don’t have formal employment, so there aren’t that many jobs around, and just moving there and getting a job might be weird/challenging/difficult, though maybe foreign education and skills would ease the process.)

      It was… kind of a hot mess, frankly? I’m not saying it wasn’t a good experience, because it was, but that way mostly despite my local partner org, rather than because of it. Zambians are, by and large, incredibly friendly people, and I was welcomed and taken care of and taught to do basic things like how to wash my laundry by hand.

      I was supposed to be teaching digital literacy and doing computer project work, reporting to two different… departments, I guess. Only the teaching one really panned out, and I spent a good six months showing up to the “office” (mud-brick building with a bunch of desks and computers — I was next door to the server room, which had open windows all the time. No cooling, nothing to keep the dust or bugs out. Computer equipment does not last terribly long in Zambia). My project work boss had literally no work for me to do, and the Dutch guy visionary who’d created the whole partner org had some ideas, most of which didn’t actually turn into concrete work to do. I did wind up setting up a Moodle instance for a local vocational school, but there wasn’t anyone there who had the technical know-how to help me make it accessible (and also the Dutch guy had this idea that it should be web-accessible rather than on the intranet and the students would all pay for it, and maybe I was 23, but I was pretty sure that people who’d never done online learning or teaching were not going to pay to adopt some new tool they had no idea how it worked, and tldr no one did ever use it).

      The teaching was much more rewarding. I had adult students who were smart and motivated, but there were a lot of challenges, too. Most of my students had never touched a computer, so I had to start with skills like “how to use a mouse,” and figure out how to explain concepts that I’d understood for as long as I could remember. I had to learn to change my accent so the students could understand me, even though we were all native or near-native English speakers (mind you, the students didn’t necessarily have the vocabulary, for example, color words). The goal was for the students to get the International Computer Driver’s License, which IMO is a badly-designed exam, particularly for an INTERNATIONAL test where the students may not know English as a first language. The language and format of the questions was horribly dense and complex, and not set up in a way to accommodate things like not remembering what color is red. Also the program wasn’t organized enough to get me certified or even have me see the test questions, so all I knew about the test was from people who’d tried to take it in the past.

      And then the local partner org went bankrupt halfway through my time there, which made my housing/social/everything situation kind of unstable, but the school kept operating (even though my boss wasn’t getting paid), so I kept up with the teaching part. It was honestly pretty liberating, because it meant I no longer felt obligated to show up and not do anything useful at the project work part of my job. I picked up a bunch of random stuff that people needed done, which was in some ways much more fulfilling.

      1. AnonSinceThisIsIdentifiable*

        You asked about culture shock.

        The pace of life is very different in Zambia. Everything happens more slowly, and generally does not start “on time.” The minibus driver will tell you that he’ll pick you up at 7am, and might wander in by 9am. People showed up when they felt like it, and wandered off to do errands or whatever when they needed to. I needed to get used to a lot of uncertainty, and events were generally not really planned.

        Many people are extraordinarily poor, and even people who are “rich” live without many of the luxuries Americans take for granted. I saw one washing machine my entire time there. Most people I knew cooked over charcoal braziers.

        1. AnonSinceThisIsIdentifiable*

          One should expect to pay to use a public toilet (usually 20-40 cents) and still may need to provide your own toilet paper.

          Very few spices are used in cooking; the difference is usually made up with massive amounts of salt. I would sometimes eat with boarding students at a nearby school, and they would liberally dump salt on a dish I already found plenty salty.

          Zambia very much has a culture of “might as well ask!” This can range from anything to “Can I borrow your bicycle?” to “Will you marry me?” I got a lot of marriage proposals from random strangers.

          Zambians have a very different relationship to bodyweight than US/Americans do (although this is changing somewhat, with exposure to western media). “You look so fat!” is a compliment, intended as an indicator that one is looking in good health. That one is pretty rough to take for a woman socialized in the US. (Tangentially, “Have you eaten?” was one of the greetings I learned in the local language.)

          The age demographics in Zambia are bizarre. While HIV/AIDS is now well-controlled via medication (and foreign aid! That money is literally saving lives every day!), in the 70’s/80’s/90’s it ran rampant throughout the country, and as a result there is almost no one over the age of 40 (would be 50 now). This leads to a leads to a near-total lack of middle management and people with significant life/workplace experience, and, I suspect, is part of why my partner org went bankrupt.

          1. AnonSinceThisIsIdentifiable*

            My male American colleagues found themselves pursued romantically in a way they were completely unaccustomed to. Our NGO bosses warned us initially to never give out our phone numbers, and my female colleague and I were like, “Don’t give anyone our phone number. Gotcha.” and the male colleagues… did not take that advice to heart. Three months later the guys came complaining to us about the legion of women blowing up their phones all the time (it’s very common in Zambia to call and then immediately hang up as a way to request a call-back; the person initiating the call pays for it, and it’s free if no one picks up), and she and I went, “Well, they told us not to give our numbers out…”

      2. Hlao-roo*

        Thanks for sharing this experience! I have never thought about changing my accent so I could be more easily understood (I’ve also never lived outside the US). Good for you for figuring out that change would make teaching (a little bit) easier.

        1. AnonSinceThisIsIdentifiable*

          Well, it was that or literally write EVERYTHING I wanted to say on the chalkboard, because the first week I might have been speaking French for how well the students understood me. (And I did, even at the end of my time there, rely heavily on writing as well.)

      3. Heather*

        I also worked for an NGO in Africa and it was also a hot mess. The NGO, not the country I was in. I felt like they were taking a lot of money from donations, both within their country and from overseas, and just squandering it. Not on purpose or out of corruption, just out of disorganization.

    3. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      It took me a long time to realise that while in NZ bring eager to work to the point of workaholism is seen as good, in London at least while expectations were the same you weren’t meant to look like you were working hard; things were meant to just happen with little effort. If course people work hard, but it’s performed differently, if that makes sense. (Also of course just my experience! )

      1. Heather*

        That is interesting and funny! I worked in Japan and felt like it was the way I think you’re describing NZ. People were constantly “busy! busy! in a hurry! busy!” They were performing normal amounts of work, but with a fair bit of showmanship.

        1. Put the Blame on Edamame*

          A Japanese-New Zealander I know said something similar to me about both cultures having a reluctance to take holidays from work! NZ has this reputation for being “laid back” but not necessarily in all areas. And I still struggle with a tendency to do that performative busyness malarkey.

    4. no arigato*

      I’m from the US and taught English in Japan for three years. The tl;dr version is that the stereotypical salaryman life you always see in the media is… actually completely realistic, for once. If anything, it’s actually downplayed compared to reality.

      Living there was amazing (other than the inevitable culture clashes and the casual racism), and I know there are plenty of people who can hack the working culture, but you couldn’t pay me enough to work for a Japanese organization again.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        I have a Japanese friend who lives here in the US, and she doesn’t want to work for a Japanese company even here.

    5. Well...*

      I worked in Spain for a few years and now I’m in the UK.

      The workplace culture in Spain was amazing. People were super friendly, I was often pushed to take more time off and go on trips to see things. Nobody cared about when you showed up or went home (except for one of my coworkers from Germany who was the only one weirdly tracking it). The institute was insanely productive given the emphasis on taking time to relax and recharge, far more productive than where I’d been working at in the US. My own productivity bumped up as well.

      Outside work I did feel isolated. It was hard to get to know people because I was constantly travelling and working, and the language barrier made it hard. I was older than most expats I met and had a more intense job, so that didn’t help. Once my partner joined me it got a lot better and we really soaked up the city life.

      Then COVID took out my last six months. The lockdowns were very hard, Spanish apartments in major cities aren’t meant to be where you spend all your free time.

      During COVID I moved to the UK, and that was also very hard at first. Difficult to meet people when you can’t leave the house, plus my partner and I were separated by a closed border (ah, the two body problem of international postdoc life). Now I’m really liking living in the UK. No language barrier means it’s way easier to socialize and I feel less isolated for sure. I also have another great working environment with great people. I can get more involved with EDI work here without the language barrier, and the EDI issues are closer to what I’m used to in the US. That’s a part of my job I missed a lot while I was in Spain.

      Anyways, overall I love living abroad. It’s not easy, but patience and acceptance of chaos goes a long way towards making the experience enjoyable. Also the stronger the support system you can cobble together, the better.

    6. Working abroad!*

      There’s a lot I like about Norway, like the excellent worker protection (employees have the right to take 3 consecutive weeks off in summer!) and how digitally integrated all the government services are.

      Culture shock: CVs generally include family status (marriage, kids) and a photo.

      Workaholism does not seem to be a thing in my field. It’s technically 37.5 hours a week, but people roll in late and leave early all the time. Maybe not surprisingly, customer service can be terrible! Talk to 3 people, get 3 different, totally made up answers. But sometimes you can keep trying until you get the fake answer you want.

      1. DistantAudacity*

        Haha – this is so true! The biggest faux pas is scheduling a recurring meeting of some sort after, say, 13:00 on a Friday! Many an ex-pat leader has fallen into that trap – “looks like everyone’s calendar is free!”.

        I will note though that our productivity numbers are high; we just don’t care too much at what time things get done (need to complete in the evening after the kids are in bed? That’s totally fine), or where from…

    7. Antilla the Hon*

      I LOVED reading the comments. I live in the US (born and raised here). I am originally from a more populous state but had to move to a vastly rural state in a small rural town for my spouse’s niche job. It feels very much like a foreign country here! I am used to amenities like medical care, good grocery stores, good schools, a gym, restaurants, etc. We generally have to travel between 1 to 3 hours for these things. Everything here is subpar and I still can’t get over the trash strewn roadsides and how casual people are about throwing trash out their car windows (and even dumping piles of trash on other people’s property).

      People are generally nice but VERY clique-y. I have one friend here and then some hobby acquaintances. And it’s a very (VERY) weird job market here. I’ve never seen anything like it. The only large employer here seems to only hire family members and friends. And older experienced workers need not apply. I’ve been rejected from the company dozens of times. It seems like mediocrity is celebrated and there are a lot of meh-subpar employees and it’s pretty much impossible to get fired. But people like me (professional, skilled, adaptive, quality driven) cannot get a foot in the door. It is the most bizarre, hopeless place. That might explain why our town’s suicide rate is double (!!) the national average.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        You just described why I’d chew my own leg off rather than move back to my hometown.

        1. Antilla the Hon*

          Elizabeth West: Ha! That is the EXACT phrasing that I use! I say I’m like an animal caught in a trap and willing to chew my own leg off to escape.

    8. onyxzinnia*

      I lived in a small town in England for grad school and started my very first job at the town’s largest corporate employer after I graduated. So combine cultural adjustment with regular learning how to be a working professional adjustment.

      When I first started, I realized that every time someone got up for a tea, they asked everyone in the vicinity if they wanted a cuppa. I was too polite to say no, so I was drinking 8-10 cups of tea a day and wondering why my heart was racing at night until I made the connection. I also misheard our team “huddle” as “cuddle”, was rather disappointed the meeting was only a daily stand up that did not end in a group hug haha. I also remember being rather horrified by a company marketing campaign where you could nominate a peer to have cheerleaders pay them a visit to celebrate their health achievements. I don’t think this would fly in US work cultures.

      They take the divide between work and personal life seriously. Work is not such a core part of your identity. I was shocked as an entry level employee that I had 30 days of PTO, never seen again since returning to the US. You rarely saw anyone starting early or staying late at the office. There was however, a lot more pressure to go to happy hour with younger colleagues after work. I have memories of cider and badly singing UK pop songs

      One thing that I found interesting, higher education was kind of looked down upon despite living in a university town. Many of my colleagues had gone straight from school aged 16-18 to work at my employer. I refused to tell them I had a masters degree based on all the snide comments about university. I don’t know if this sentiment holds true or not across the UK because I ended up returning home a year later. I actually had a harder time trying to enter the US work culture after living abroad than I did working in the UK.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        I’m from the UK but lived in the US for many years, but I’m back in the UK now.
        One of my colleagues recently asked me how the work culture was different in the US and I told her that people define themselves by their jobs much more in the US. And I like the more relaxed work culture here – if you’re in a big city in the US, you can get the impression that Americans like to look very busy just to seem important!
        Hustle culture us a lot stronger in the US than here – which can be both good and bad. There is definitely a lot more drinking with colleagues in the UK!
        The anti-education sentiment differs a lot depending where you are in the UK. Education was less valued where I grew up, but now I’m in a smallish and famous university city and you feel under-educated if you only have a BA, which I do.
        And the thing which fascinated me most about working with Americans is their willingness to make incredibly radical changes to their work and personal lives – to just pack up and move to the other side of the country to do something completely different. People in the UK don’t do this nearly as much, either because we are less adventurous or we live in a smaller country with fewer places to go – probably a bit of both!

    9. Parakeet*

      I’m from the US. I did a summer internship in a lab in Switzerland when I was an undergrad. It was…rather lonely, to start with. I read French fluently (even took a grad class in French lit at the local university while I was in high school!), but my speaking skills have always been mediocre at best, and combined with my social anxiety disorder, I tended to forget even the absolute most BASIC French on the spot when I had to say something. I did get very good at saying the sentence “Je voudrais un panini avec jambon et fromage, s’il vous plait!” (“I’d like a ham and cheese panini, please!”) at the panini shop near where I was staying. I went on a lot of walks through the city and various beautiful surrounding areas, by myself. The working environment was pleasant (and English was the primary language used at the lab, since people were from a number of countries with a number of first languages). My supervisor was a sweetheart and I used him as a job reference/grad school recommender for several years afterwards.

      I had arranged this internship all by myself, which I was very proud of, rather than through any kind of university-based study-abroad or work-abroad program. I almost ended up in a rather sticky situation because I didn’t realize until a few days ahead of time that they weren’t just going to set me up with dorm housing for the summer or something (like I said, I was an undergrad! I didn’t know how a lot of things worked!).

      Men were way more upfront about hitting on me on the street than at home, but also less aggressive when I turned them down. I was coming back into the city from a hike one weekend and had a very affable guy approach me and ask, in French, whether I would come back to his place for, uh, intimate relations with himself and his friend (he also offered to pay me, and asked, in different terms, if I was reluctant because of having not been intimate with someone of his race before). Interesting situation to navigate in a language you hardly speak lol. I also had a strange guy strike up a conversation while I was on one of my walks by the lake, hike with me for something like 8 miles talking with me in my halting French, and then try to get me to come back to his hotel room. Both of those guys did ask me a few times, but didn’t get mean or frightening or physical after I repeatedly told them no.

      It was a World Cup year. It was the summer. The building I was staying in had no air conditioning, and was right in the middle of a densely-populated working-class area. My choices at night were to either open the windows and deal with the full blast of post-game noise every time there was a game, or shut them and swelter and only get, say, 70% of the blast of post-game noise. I was ready to ban soccer by the time the Cup finished.

      I noticed more antisemitism there than at home (this was some years ago and I’m not sure this would be the case anymore for various reasons).

      1. Warrior Princess Xena*

        Dang, I don’t know how I would have navigated that in English, let along French. I think my brain would have experienced a 404 error.

    10. Chilipepper Attitude*

      30 years ago my husband, 6-month old, and I (cis female) moved to the UK for his post-doc. At first, I was told I could not work because I did not have permission before I arrived, only my husband did. But then we learned that I had the same permissions he had by default. So I applied for part-time jobs.

      My rejections all started with “Further to your request …” and my reaction was, further, further to where? At first I thought this was some poorly worded English. Then I realized it was just different wording to me.

      But the really different stuff happened when I finally got an interview for a part-time receptionist job at a doctor’s practice. I think I had a phone screen with the office manager first, but soon I came in for a “meeting with the doctor.” It was in a very large conference room with the largest single table I had ever seen; I think there were at least 15 doctors there, with me sat at the head of the table. I’m really comfortable in interviews but still, looking down this huge table at 15 men in white coats was pretty intimidating. They spent what felt like 2 hours, but must have been under 1 hour, asking me every question under the sun about how medical care was managed in the US from payments to the use of stirrups in GYN exams (they don’t use them in the UK for routine visits)! They were apparently fascinated; I felt like I was on display.

      Eventually, they drifted closer to the actual job. I must have missed all their cues because they finally and awkwardly said, “well, we would have to pay you less than minimum wage because you did not take the 6-week post-secondary receptionist course so you probably don’t want the job.” I had a master’s degree! I did some quick mental math and realized after paying for the mandatory uniform and paying for the bus, I’d barely make any money – but my real goal was to do something other than SAHM so I said enthusiastically that that would work for me! So then they looked really unhappy and hesitatingly explained to me that they just could not hire me. I’d be the lowest member of staff but my education and nationality? put me socially above most of the staff and it would just cause all kinds of chaos as the staff would try to defer to me because of my social status. But they needed the staff to direct me, not defer to me. They just could not figure out how to navigate this so they could not hire me.

      Sadly, I never got a job while I was there.

      2. isigfethera*

        Reminds me of when my parents (both Drs) went to the UK to work in the 90s, they had to go through the accreditation(?) process. My dad got a formal letter notifying him that he had been approved, and apparently, scrawled on it in pencil, “P.S. The wife can work”

    11. New Mom*

      Thanks for asking!
      I’m American and I worked in South Korea for three years and in England for one year. I loved living in South Korea in my mid-twenties, it was a lot of fun. The work culture there is brutal though, employers expect work to come first before anything else. Sick days were not really a thing, and employers would make a really big deal if you had to be out even once. So for three years I took one morning off because I had to get a biopsy and it was the only time the English hospital would offer and my horrid manager called me over and over again demanding to know when I’d be back (even though I told her when I would be back before I left and returned within that same time frame). I was required to go teach with laryngitis, with head colds, with allergic reactions…
      A big workplace difference too is, from the American standpoint, you are usually rewarded if you find a way to do something more efficient that could save time and money for the company. In South Korea, it was considered disrespectful to make suggestions to a manager even if we were doing a process that was taking three times the amount of time and a SIMPLE change could solve it. Almost every expat worker I knew there had an experience of doing something in a weird, convoluted way and respectfully providing an efficient alternative only to be either reprimanded, have a manager react with anger or told to just keep doing it in the “makes no sense way and shut up”. There was also a strong culture around butt-in-seat, so even if your work was done you were not allowed to leave until close of business.

      But, minus managers, I found Korean people to be really polite, patience, and friendly. I’ve been gone ten years and I’m still friends with and in contact with people from my time there. They were patient with my fumbling Korean speaking skills, unlike how Americans are to English language learners. It was the safest place I’ve lived in my life, I was a woman alone there and I could walk home at night at 10pm and feel totally safe. It was such a freeing feeling that I cannot replicate in the states. And I was able to save enough money, due to low cost of living, that I went on TWO extensive multi-continent trips and paid for grad school out of pocket with no loans. And the food was amazing.

      In England, I found my job to be more similar to American student jobs. I found the English people I worked with and met to be very reserved even in the liberal city I was in compared to the US and Korea. In the US and in Korea I was able to make friends or at least have friendly acquaintances with people I worked with and in England it always felt like an impenetrable wall with people, which was hard for me.

      1. Despachito*

        Thank you all, that is extremely interesting.

        I have never worked abroad but there is much food for thought.

  3. PX*

    Suggestions for “get to know your colleagues preferred working style” activities/questions that I can do with a new team at our first in person meetup next week?

    My manager has given me free reign to come up with an activity that should take up about 1-2 hours. While I know many people here arent the biggest fans of strengthsfinder/personality type assessments, I’ve found them useful not so much for the output they actually generate, but the discussion that often comes with it (in the past some of those types of workshops have been great to help me understand why certain colleagues were the way they were, and how best to work with them vs. getting frustrated!). Current team was only formed about 10 months ago (I only joined last month), and the function area as a whole (business/process improvement) is also new to the company. The people so far seem fairly informal, friendly and sensible, so it doesnt have to be super rigid/formal.

    Unfortunately no budget, so needs to be free. Activities, questions that can go round the team, website quizzes etc – hit me with them all!

    1. metadata minion*

      How big of a team are we talking about? I think this would affect my recommendations slightly.

    2. metadata minion*

      Also, would it be possible to survey your group beforehand to see how they fall in the spectrum of “I hate all artificial icebreaker activities” to “I think it would be hilarious to build marshmallow and toothpick towers with my colleagues”?

      1. AnotherOne*

        and maybe make it voluntary for some things.

        pre-pandemic, my employer did a gingerbread contest for the holiday party. a couple of people opted to be involved from our office. i mean the result was terrible- but it was hilarious making it and seeing our solutions to the fact that none of us had a clue what the f- we were going.

    3. MGR*

      One activity I’ve done with new teams is to have the group craft a vision/mission statement for the team, or team values. For example, do you have a common understanding of how you prioritize work? Is it more important to do everything in the order it comes in, or are certain things more time sensitive? What is the value your team is adding to the larger company?

      For example, I took over managing a team where the previous manager was a terrible communicator. So as the manager, I decided that a key value of the team was going to be transparency so that information flowed better. I then had the team come up with two or three other values that they all agreed on.

      After that, you can talk about ways to put your mission or values into practice. What does that look like in the common scenarios your team faces?

      1. Gracely*

        No offense meant, but oh god how I hate crafting vision/mission statements with a team.

        Team values is a good idea, though.

        1. Unkempt Flatware*

          sweet little baby Jesus do I as well! It is very committee-creating-a-camel to me and I’ve never seen it done right.

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Crafting a vision/mission statement should take some time and thought. When my grand boss started a few years ago, she did ask us to come up with values and a mission statement, but it wasn’t while sitting at a conference table for 2-3 hours. We had about a week to submit our thoughts and then she sifted through our responses to put a statement together.

    4. AnotherOne*

      I ditto that you need to have the temperature of the room. My group is really casual- I mean as group activity we often play bingo, which serves no purpose beyond determining that our entire group is terrible at understanding how you play bingo. (But it works well actually for fun way for people to relax. You can’t take yourself seriously playing bingo.)

      But we’ve done stuff like “NASA Exercise: Survival on the Moon” in groups. You really get to see how people think- and think/work in groups. (Sorta like an escape room but without the cost.)

      I know there are others like this but this one stayed in my head. (Probably cuz of intense arguing after about how X was wrong or Y was right.)

      Plus it works no many how many people you have, this would work.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        If you want the abstract knowledge of how the individuals in the team work on projects together etc as part of a get-to-know-the-players strategy, then I’d do a short abstract (and preferably fun) “project” — like surviving on the moon — to get things flowing.
        Or parallel play sorts of activities (e.g., I was on a team where we made magic wands with random craft supplies we brought in. It was something to do with our hands, it unlocked some creativity, and then we all had magic wands stuck in our cubes to wave when something was impossible, which was often.)

        I think the crucial thing to plan is having flexible time options, flexible intensity requirements to account for different people types, and giving yourself room to pivot if it doesn’t go well — or goes fabulously and you want to keep going.

        And is everyone new to each other? Is this a brand new team being onboarded? A mix of new and old people to the organization? Are YOU new to the organization? There could be existing culture or personalities that you may need some guidance on when deciding what to do.

        I’d save team missions and values discussions to another setting … or at least after the icebreaking time. Especially if there’s old dogs in the room, because then the whole thing could backfire and cement disfunction if they’re the loudest and the newbies are afraid to speak.

    6. Academic Fibro Warrior*

      I’m in higher ed so take my suggestions with a grain or six of salt. But one thing i like to do with my classes on the first day is ask them not just what their goals are but how do they think I can support them to succeed in terms of the class (i invite them to have more personal conversations privately and try to make clear that they don’t need to justify their needs because I trust them to know what they need.) It’s helpful because we start out with open communication, they start advocating for themselves in a situation where it’s easy to feel powerless, they start planning what to do before they get overwhelmed, and I can make adjustments in advance to activities and lesson plans. It also has reduced the number of students scrambling to get things done last minute when none of us have much time or bandwidth. Could this be adapted to find out what kind of peer support systems and checkins and the like your colleagues need or want to function effectively? Im thinking as well of my friend in tech who was consistently denied this opportunity and was left to mind read, but he needs clearly defined goals, processes, and structure to be productive (it also made his anxiety skyrocket to where he had trouble functioning sometimes). If he’d been able to have conversations about his job he would have likely been fine. Or at least better!

      I applaud your desire to do this! Just be aware that some ground rules up front to establish a culture of trust and collaboration or people may feel they have to overshare the why to be taken seriously. Some may anyway if they still have some trauma from prior positions that dismissed needs.

    7. Gracely*

      I mean…you could just literally ask people what their preferred working style is, and what that means for them in their day-to-day.

      As far as icebreakers go, I’m a fan of the question “If you could turn into any animal you wanted–but just one–what would it be?” because it leads to lots of discussion, and it’s non-political, non-ablest, etc.

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        This is what I’d recommend. Just ask about working styles and work-related goals and stuff — brainstorm workflow and have an open honest conversation; if you want to get all official, whiteboard it out to so that everyone can see the big picture of how their style works (or doesn’t) within the business goals and group dynamic. It doesn’t really matter from a business perspective if someone’s personality is that they really hate telephone calls and video meetings if their job requires it, unless the manager is going to have a conversation there in front of the group about that person possibly “transitioning” out of their job.

        My biggest complaint about those strengthsfinder/personality type assessments is they aren’t really relevant to my employer or coworkers for the most part.

      2. The answer is Kombucha*

        I despise the animal question. I always answer “Kombucha.” Invariably someone will manager-splain that kombucha isn’t an animal and that gives ME information. I usually say that I enjoy irony. Of course, this probably labels me as difficult from the gecko (and yes, I know it’s “get go” but I enjoy the irony). Also these types of games can be torture for neurodivergent people. Please stick with non gimmick straightforward questions.

        1. Gracely*

          I think kombucha would be a fun answer.

          Also it’s not a game or gimmick to figure anything out about personalities or anything else from the question–it literally is just “what animal would you want to be if you could be?” You can just answer “human” if you don’t want to be anything else . Neurodivergent people are perfectly capable of answering the question, and plenty of us do enjoy this kind of question. The important thing is to not force anyone to discuss/provide their reason for their answer if they don’t want to.

      3. Workerbee*

        I’d name an extinct one so I wouldn’t have to answer any more of those types of questions,

      4. BookMom*

        I’d have to tread lightly on this. I want to be a house cat, but a new boss probably doesn’t want to hear my life priorities are napping in sunbeams, frequent snacks, and selectively interacting with other people. Ha!

    8. WomEngineer*

      If this is the team’s first time meeting up, I’d suggest saving time at the beginning for introductions (name, experience, education, hobbies, etc.).

      As for the activity itself, I’d reflect on what you want from working styles. I like the idea of making it a discussion. Just avoid singling people/personalities out and focus on modes of work that would be helpful to everyone.

    9. Irish Teacher*

      Would the VARK work? It’s a learning styles quiz rather than a working styles one, but the two things do have overlap. And it’s easily available online for free. My students enjoy doing the “younger learners” one and while it is utterly meaningless for some of them, others REALLY identify it. “Oh, THAT’S why I find Geography so difficult, because our Geography teacher keeps showing diagrams to explain everything and I got lowest on visual learning!”

      Actually, here is the adult version, so you can look at it (if you want to) and see if it might be any use: https://vark-learn.com/the-vark-questionnaire/

    10. Ginger Pet Lady*

      You could do something as simple as “move to this side of the room if you prefer slack to email, go to the other side if you prefer email” “Do you prefer meetings in the morning or the evening?” or “if that side of the room is a zero and that side of the room is a 10, how much do you love work phone calls? Go stand at that spot.”
      This doesn’t need to be the exercise itself, but you could use it to divide into teams or groups, form a line for lunch, etc. But it also gives people an idea of what their coworkers think about how things can be done.
      I would think these activities would work best in a group of 15-25 people.

    11. Anon for This*

      Please don’t do the personality/strengthsfinder assessments. Many are racially biased and I remember an incident where a POC colleague objected to participation in the ensuing discussion on the results on those grounds . While that discussion was fascinating, I don’t think that is what you want for a first meeting.

      Keep it light and fun.

      1. j*

        I know a lot of people object to these because they’re taken too seriously/used to make decisions when they’re psuedo science, but I don’t think I’d ever heard that they were racially biased or insensitive. Most of these tests seem to go out of their way to make every potential result into a positive. Would you feel comfortable sharing any of the specific concerns your colleague brought?

        1. Unkempt Flatware*

          Oh they very much are. Racially and socioeconomically and probably otherwise biased on top of it. Very. Just the same way that standardized tests are biased against the same groups.

          1. j*

            Okay but how exactly? Standardized tests are purporting to measure aptitude which feels very different than a personality quiz where by definition there are no ‘wrong answers’.

            1. Irish Teacher*

              I don’t know the specifics and wasn’t aware of this, but…it’s hard to create anything that ISN’T culturally biased. Even the words used or how questions are phrased. And if a quiz say uses the “definitely agree, partly agree” typed wording, then somebody from a culture that values confidence is more likely to say “definitely agree” where somebody who is from a culture that values seeing both sides and listening to others and always accepting you might be wrong, even if both really do the thing to the same extent. Not sure which answer would give a “better” outcome, but it certainly wouldn’t be accurate for both people.

              Then there are cultures where positivity is strongly encouraged and people feel less comfortable admiting to negative emotions.

              I’m just looking at a quiz now where it says “I have excellent ideas.” Agreeing with that seems kind of…arrogant and I can definitely see people feeling they have to disagree regardless of what they truly believe. I don’t know if there are cultures where agreeing with that would be encouraged and would be seen as confidence rather than a “self-praise is no praise” sort of thing but if there is, then culture would have an impact there too.

              I could certainly see culture influencing outcome and making the results inaccurate.

    12. Hiring Mgr*

      Are you the manager of this team or another team member? Also, you mention they’re an informal, friendly and sensible group, so they may find it odd to spend two hours doing a personality test around their preferred working styles.. (what does that mean exactly anyway?). I’d just stick to something more fun/light..

    13. rosyglasses*

      I’m not sure exactly how this would work in a group setting because my recommendations would largely depend on the personalities of your team, but I love using 15Five (dot) com “Best Self Kickoff”. We do this with our teams when they are hired and it’s meant to help your manager and you get to know each other, strengths, ways to be managed or recognized, what work energizes you etc. I think those are really good questions that they have and they tend to not slide into the “why do I have to talk about all this personal stuff” and focus more specifically with how you bring yourself into the workplace.

  4. Goose*

    T minus 11 days until I get to go home from my summer long work trip! No more inconstant wifi! No more time zone issues! No more living out of suitcase! TGIF everyone!!

    2. House built by Jack*

      Congratulations!
      I am on a 2 month trip at the moment, also living out of suitcases, and I am yearning for my home. Next week for me:)

  5. ED in a small neighborhood of a big town*

    I have a staff member I may need to let go for performance/fit related issues. She will have plenty of warning and I hope to make this a mutual decision. However, this person is quite sensitive so regardless of how it happens I expect her to be somewhat upset. The problem? Her kids go to school with mine! I will have to continue to see her regularly and don’t want to create a situation where it is awkward anytime we see each other or where there are repercussions for the kids (hers or mine). I am sure she will see the situation as wholly my fault and generally I would be totally fine with her coming away with that impression despite the fact that much of the problem is get approach to the work but in this case I’m really worried about the dynamics going forward.

    1. hamsterpants*

      If you’re sure she’s going to be bad about it, then that’s liberating!

      Keep things very cool and professional, document everything. When you see her at school pickup or whatever, be cordial but not chummy, give her space to be upset and don’t give her power by expecting reconciliation (that she can deny you).

      1. ED in a small neighborhood of a big town*

        I’ll try to think about it as liberating! This staff person is one who thinks she is really good at everything and is not willing to ask questions or ever look like she doesn’t know everything, which has created obvious problems. She thinks I don’t give enough positive feedback and that I shut down all her ideas and she wants more encouragement but her work doesn’t warrant that so I just know she won’t own get failures here.

        1. hamsterpants*

          Someone like this probably has lots of enemies (real and imagined) and perhaps self-generated drama as well. If you can be very procedural and boring then she will have less to latch on to and will move on more quickly to her next victim. It’s the “gray rock” approach.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      You can only control your own behavior unfortunately. Interact with her the same way you would any other parents at the school. From there, it’s on her to do (or not do) the same. If she doesn’t, she’ll be making the situation awkward, not you. While I understand you’d rather it not be awkward at all, you’ll be doing what you can to make that happen.

      I suspect that she’ll be upset (folks almost always are), but most people will get through that initial feeling of being upset, so in all likelihood, things will be fine :)

    3. ABCYaBye*

      I’ve reminded a couple of people this past week that people’s poor reactions to you doing your job correctly should not be viewed as a mirror reflecting you, but a window showing you them. If you’re in the right, and they’re doing wrong and then reacting poorly, it is a “them” problem, not a “you” problem. If she reacts poorly, treat her respectfully when you see her and if she acts foolishly, especially in public at the school, she’ll just look foolish to others too.

    4. anonymous73*

      I understand your concerns but you can’t manage someone else’s feelings. Be honest and direct with the issues and the consequences with a time line if things don’t improve. As long as you treat her with respect and make sure she understands everything, there’s not much more for you to do.

    5. Chestnut Mare*

      This happened to me a couple of years ago, and it turned out that being let go enabled her to find a position that was a much better fit. So, it was awkward for a bit but ultimately it faded and we’re able to have a pleasant conversation.

      1. ED in a small neighborhood of a big town*

        Glad to hear I’m not alone and very much hoping to end up in the same position!

      2. Migraine Month*

        I was pretty devastated when I was fired from my first job and hated my manager for it… for about 3 months. Then I got another job. Looking back, getting fired is the best career move I ever made, and it made me realize how unprofessional my behavior had become.

        I’m not saying it’s okay to be cavalier when firing someone, or to think you’re doing it “for their own good”, but getting fired is something most people can put behind them with a bit of time.

    6. I should really pick a name*

      There’s probably no way to avoid awkwardness.
      That being said, try to interact with her the same way you did before to signal that you’re trying not to be weird about it.
      If you avoid her, the awkwardness will probably last longer.

      That being said, if you approach her and she tries to avoid you, give her the space she wants.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have no kids, so grain of salt here, but you might plan ahead how to handle it if this somehow results in her kids not wanting to talk to your kids anymore or whatnot in a manner that is upsetting to your kids. You say they go to school together which isn’t the same as “they’re friends” so it may not matter, but if the kids are currently friends and suddenly your little Sam comes home upset because Chris’s mom says Chris can’t play with Sam anymore because Sam’s parent is a meaniepants jerkface, you might want to have a plan in place ahead of time as to how to address that at a kid appropriate level.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yup. My kid had a friend whose mom vowed eternal enmity towards me for doing something objectively correct and necessary that she did not like.

        Eventually it leaked over, and my kid came home from school to tell me in shocked times that “so-and-so’s mom *hates* you!”

        I told her, “Yes, I know, and I wish she didn’t feel that way, but I understand why. If I were in her shoes I might feel the same way. I just hope someday she can understand things from my point of view, too.”

        The main thing to reassure your child is that 1) this isn’t a feud because you aren’t mad at the other person, and 2) You can live with them being mad at you. It isn’t scary or upsetting, just kind of sad.

        It can be a great opportunity to model healthy emotional boundaries for your kids, as well as how to have empathy for people when they are wrong.

        1. Antilla the Hon*

          I love this. It’s very neutral and non-judgmental and models a healthy response for your kid. Good job!

    8. Don't Send Your Kids to Hudson University*

      You’ve gotten some good advice from other commenters and I just want to reiterate that your objective you be to deliver this news with professionalism and treat the employee with the appropriate level of dignity. Don’t sugar coat things, but if possible avoid using really loaded language and talk primarily about the quality of her work product and objective measures of her performance rather than her shortcomings as a person. She may hear it that way regardless and look for ways to blame you or others, but you really can’t control for that beyond giving her good information to start with. As for the school setting, give her space but be polite and warm when you have the chance. She may come around eventually, but don’t push it–worrying too much about preserving that relationship can undermine the steps you need to take to be effective in your role, like giving her a frank assessment of her performance. Something you might consider if you pick up on any changes in the kids’ interactions is fill in the teachers about this thing happening in the background (only necessary detail, that this woman left your organization and she may be feeling some resentment toward you that could trickle into the kids’ interactions). They’ll likely appreciate knowing that there’s a rift between these families and can pair up students for group work or seating charts with this in mind. They can also keep an eye out for any conflicts that would require parent intervention to nip in the bud.

    9. Yeah summer!*

      If you are worried about the impact on your kids I’d have an age appropriate conversation with them. Kids have a way of repeating/relaying things their parents say. I wouldn’t tell your kid the details but something general “if someone says something upsetting or confusing you can come talk to me.” You could also talk to school and ask them eye out for any concerns with your kid.
      Ultimately, if there is weirdness, it will eventually move on.

    10. mreasy*

      I think it is going to be awkward, at least for awhile, but as long as you are fair and kind, it won’t be on your account.

    11. SofiaDeo*

      I had a staff person who resisted all mandatory regulatory changes (healthcare), and took a painfully 9 month (document, document, document) long time to ultimately let go. My HR person was correct in having me take the time to document, document, document, because she responded by suing us for age discrimination and my documentation proved it wasn’t; she lost.

      Some months later she stopped by (still had friends there) and *thanked* me. Her new job was much better suited to her personality. Hopefully you will have this experience.

  6. KateDee*

    How worried are we all about keeping our jobs in a recession? Are you making career moves about it?

    I’m pregnant, work in marketing, and I’m nervous. I’m contemplating applying for a transfer to a merchandising role that is savings focused instead of cost based. I just don’t know.

    1. Firm Believer*

      I’m very interested to see how it plays out. I’m a small business owner in marketing and I’ve seen the work start to slow down. After being in a hiring frenzy for the past two years I’m not hiring anyone else right now and hoping to avoid laying anyone off. I wish more people were talking about it in the media.

      1. Migraine Month*

        Since one of the biggest risk factors of going into a recession is people’s *belief* that there is going to be a recession, I’m okay with the media not focusing on it yet. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, because if people think there is going to be a recession they spend less, so businesses make less money, so they have to cut wages or lay people off, so fewer people have money to spend…

        Same with inflation, though that ship has clearly sailed.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Eh if they haven’t fired me already they’ll keep me on. There’s too much work to be like ” Well we’re going to fire everyone”

    3. Decidedly Me*

      I’m in a good position (personally and business wise) that I don’t fear layoffs (recession related or otherwise). We continue to hire and will continue to do so.

    4. AnotherOne*

      I’m a little panicky because after almost a decade at my current employer, I decided to finally change fields and it feels like the worst possible time. But it looks like the field I’m moving to should be relatively strong.

      But I admit I’m anxious. I have a lot of job security at the moment.

      1. Emily Dickinson*

        I’m with you! I’m not even entirely sure what field I’m moving into (I’m more role focused than industry). I feel safe in my current role, but would need to change companies and industries to have more career development.

    5. Sloanicota*

      I’ve seen a lot of articles lately that workers are regretting the “great resignation” (?) and that unemployment is going to be spiked deliberately to bring down inflation – I assume because inflation upsets rich people more. I’m a bit skeptical of the coverage because I assume newspaper companies are also big employers and moguls. I am hoping the gains workers made will be preserved.

      1. Lady_Lessa*

        I don’t know about that, but I do know that we are actively (I hope) seeking another chemist. The reason I say I hope is that we are now a division of a larger company and my trust of them looking after our/my interests is San Andreas fault shaky.

    6. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I personally am not concerned. My job is secure, my field is secure, my clients are legally required to buy my company’s services. Even as a newbie during 2008, I was absolutely fine. My immediate family are also ok.

      I’m really hoping that it doesn’t get bad, because even if I’m going to be ok, I do care about everyone else.

      As for the “Great Resignation”, I think that there was some long term changes kicked off by Covid. A lot of people left the workforce for various reasons (death, disability, care taking, etc) and combined with the normal and expected retirements of Baby Boomers, that has long term impacts on the workforce. A recession isn’t going to change that significantly I don’t think.

      1. The Person from the Resume*

        I don’t think the “great resignation” was a real thing as I heard it described. People leaving low paying job for higher paying jobs, people leaving toxic jobs and bad environments for ones they hoped are better are not new things.

    7. fueled by coffee*

      As someone who will be finishing up graduate school this time around, ack.

      But at least I’ll be out *before* everyone else decides to do more school in a tough job market (oh hey, 2008). So hopefully I can snatch up the “advanced degree required, minimum wage, no benefits” jobs before they get to it.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      It’s interesting how there’s all this talk of a recession with no actual signs of a recession. (To be clear, I expect that after economic expansion there will be contraction, and vice versa, no matter how many times I read that the latest stock market trend shall last forever because Reasons.)

      Inflation is being driven by supply chain issues, not cheap credit, and the Fed raising interest rates is unlikely to fix the supply chain issues.

      1. Lora*

        Yeah, the fixes for the current issues (onshoring critical supply chains and inputs, building up infrastructure, health care investments so people disabled by Long Covid can continue to work instead of going on disability, childcare investments) are far outside the scope of the Fed to fix, and most of what the Fed does in any case is like slapping some Flex Tape on – and what we need is investments that look more like building a cathedral. Maybe you won’t see the results but your kids will, type of thing. Since that’s far FAR outside the timelines of either government election cycles or quarterly investor reports, it’s basically not gonna happen.

        In the sense of, the overall economy is going to shrink – yes, sure, that is kind of inevitable when a huge chunk of your workforce is either disabled or partially disabled by Long Covid, unable to get childcare, and companies cannot consistently get inputs they need to function short of vertical integration (which takes a long time, sometimes decades). Technically after the Black Plague, economies shrank – but it was still a time of worker empowerment, because there were so few of them around.

      2. All The Words*

        Considering the Fed & other talking heads keep saying one way to curb inflation is to have lower wages and a higher unemployment rate, it’s not unrealistic for people to expect lower wages and higher unemployment in the next couple years.

        1. Lora*

          Inflation in Giffen goods is different from regular inflation though. I’m not saying many managers won’t lay people off in the hopes that it’s a regular recession, but when you see double digit inflation in Giffen goods there’s something very different going on, for which the Fed has no real recourse.

      3. ladyme*

        If people can’t afford to buy things, the supply chain issues won’t be as intense because it’ll be easier to meet demand. That wouldn’t be a good thing though.

    9. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      I’m concerned as my industry tends to be a loser in economies like this. Where I’m at today, I don’t really like my job very much but my position feels strong — I have capital and I’m likely to keep my job but it doesn’t feel super stable on a team or org level. I’d love to find something closer to my style/values, but nowhere is likely to be MORE stable, and in switching I’d be the last one in and I wouldn’t even have built-up capital on my side. I was planning to job search this year but maybe not? I don’t know.

    10. Irish Teacher*

      I’m incredibly lucky as a teacher. “Jobs for life” and all that. Even if my school closed, I would still have to be transferred to another school. Though when people complain about how lucky we are, they ignore how many years it can take to get to that point. It was 17 years in my case.

    11. firestarter11*

      I work in healthcare (mental health) and am crossing my fingers that my job is mostly recession proof? I’ve also worked here the longest, and generate the most revenue, so I think I’d be the last to go if my boss had to simplify, but maybe that’s wishful thinking?

      I’m more worried about rising costs and a not-so-rising salary…. My boss is great with giving raises and bonuses, but we have teensy profit margins as it is because insurance sucks. I’m single and have no kids, but I have three pets, and my newest pet addition (puppy) has been a lot more expensive than I’d hoped.

      1. Zak*

        I would still be concerned even in healthcare unless you’re working in emergency services because when people lose their jobs during a recession they lose their insurance. When people lose their insurance, they can’t access elective healthcare. It’s appalling what is considered “elective” in this context.

        1. Gyne*

          The problem with Healthcare is that while there will always be a need for it, you might not always get paid to work. I personally had to forgo collecting a paycheck so I could pay my staff for two months during the early days of the shutdown. After we started easing some restrictions, I reduced my salary by about 40%. Even in the EDs, many doctors had their pay cut or lost their jobs entirely. The other problem is once you leave, the barriers to re-entry are so steep as to be essentially insurmountable, so you can’t really try other roles and then come back if it doesn’t work out. That said, I’ve been aggressively saving for the last few years to build my “emergency fund” so if we EVER get to a place where I need to work for free again, I’m out. Why work 80 hours a week in a high stress, high PERSONAL liability field for no pay? Especially when a large percentage of the people I encounter on a daily basis won’t even do me the basic human courtesy of wearing a mask correctly during the 15-20 minutes they’re in a room with me?

    12. West Coaster*

      Same – I am debating leaving a very secure job for a job that might be less secure. It’s a little nervewracking.

      I am also planning on putting off an expensive home project until things feel more stable (and the price of materials hopefully comes down).

    13. kiki*

      I’ve been really anxious about it! I’m a software developer, so my career path feels somewhat stable, but so many tech companies have been laying folks off. I was hoping to look for a new job (been at my current role for about a year and it’s just not a good fit for me)– I’m kicking myself for not leveling up my skills more in the last year (I had a rough year in my personal life, but I do wish I had been more diligent about this). People are still hiring developers, but it’s definitely become a lot more competitive in the past few months. I have ~3 years of experience but no college degree in computer science, so I have enough experience to not be junior, but I’m not the most competitive candidate either.

      I also know I’m an anxious person, so I’m trying not to pay so much mind to things that are out of my control, but it’s hard not to feel concerned when every time I log into linked in I see a lot of post announcing layoffs.

      1. kiki*

        I’m also regretting not saving more in the last year. Some things were unavoidable due to the afore mentioned rough year– I broke up with my boyfriend, so my living expenses increased, etc.– but I could have been more scrupulous about saving.

    14. Anyfizz*

      Not very? But I also don’t love my job, and I have a very good support system (financial and emotional), so that changes my calculation.
      I work in consumer-packaged-goods, and my section of the company handles both merchandising and product development. Basically, we’re there to execute the projects for all the products. While it’s true that the company would be completely screwed if they cut any of us experienced members, my company also has a strong marketing bias. In fact, because my group is constantly underappreciated, all the more senior people have one toe out at all times. My boss is constantly trying to vouch for us with middling success.
      This is all to say that I’m not deeply convinced that upper management would try harder to preserve our jobs over the marketing team’s. You know your company’s approach to org structure the best, but I don’t think it’s strictly a matter of who is doing the savings focused work. Especially because you’re looking at maintaining benefits through pregnancy, I would take a closer look as to how your company handled org changes, layoffs, etc. in the past (esp. during lower revenue years). Because the reality is that not all companies look at the cost vs savings metrics. Sometimes it really is just about who likes who, and maintaining the bare minimum on execution.

    15. TradeMark*

      I’m not at all worried in my current position but I did not take another position I was offered partly because I was worried about the organization’s financial stability if/when there is a downturn. There were other factors, including health insurance affordability – this organizations was already expensive and I don’t think a recession would make that better!

    16. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      My employer is counter-cyclical to the economy (when times are bad, our business booms), so very little.

      In previous roles, Savings were my hedge against a recession impacting my job (and it did happen).

      While there won’t be as many opportunities in a recession, there will be some openings out there. The silver lining is that those are going to be stronger companies.

    17. Lebkin*

      I am not currently concerned. I work in building materials, and construction is highly dependent on the economy. We are also a small company, which has some dangerous.

      But I am one of two people who do my primary tasks, and I outperform my coworker by 50-75% each year. I also do several tasks that he isn’t capable of doing. So as long as he’s still employed here, I don’t foresee them firing me. He’s basically the canary in my coal-mine.

    18. Cheezmouser*

      I know that it’s still a hot job market, but the prospect of a potential recession coming our way has made me decide to play it safe and not consider looking for a new job. I have job security where I’m at, so my strategy now is to pursue a promotion and raise here instead of elsewhere. Luckily management knows my value and are keen to keep me, so I’m confident that I will be successful in getting that promotion. If that weren’t the case, then I might still consider jumping ship despite my worries of “last one in, first one out.”

    19. Flower necklace*

      I’m a teacher. I’m more concerned about avoiding the pressure to take on an extra class – not from admin (who are awesome) but from my own desire to help out my department during a staffing shortage.

    20. voluptuousfire*

      For my job, I feel pretty secure. We’re growing and also shoring up our ramparts in case things may have to pivot, so it’s comforting.

      I work in tech, so at least from what I’m seeing from all the hubbub on LinkedIn, the lion’s share of companies laying off are tech start-ups that got absurd funding during the pandemic or their business boomed since it was the right fit for being at home (looking at you, Peloton). When the funding opportunities came more conservative or dried up or the demand for the product waned, the first thing they did was lay off people. I had many companies reach out to me on LinkedIn in 2020/2021 who were like “we’re in hypergrowth” or “we got our series C funding of 200 million valuing us at 7 billion!” and I turned down their requests to chat about a role and I’m glad I did. Companies in hypergrowth scare me. The layoffs are pretty much companies retracting from the overhiring they did. They got too big for their britches too quickly. This is all my opinion anyway.

    21. TeenieBopper*

      I’m not worried about my current job. I am, however, worried about my own personal leverage as well as workers’ leverage in general.

      I recently requested a 10%ish raise because the CoL raises I’ve been given over the past 2 years haven’t, you know, covered the increased cost of living in addition to the fact that my salary is in the bottom 15th percentile for my job title and skills. It was mostly denied (I got 4% instead of my usual 2-3%). I believe them when they say they value what I bring to the company, but they can’t do that kind of money – it’s a non profit, after all. As frustrating and upsetting as this was, I’m still not ready to actively job search because I qualify for PSLF here (roughly equivalent to 20k a year and rising) and my PTO package is, quite frankly, absurd (think 40ish days total between holidays, sick time, and vacation). I worry with a recession, if I do decide to actively search, it will be much harder for me to demand a PTO package that I’m comfortable with along with a WFH/hybrid schedule that I want.

    22. Heather*

      I am a licensed clinical social worker and people are leaving the field so I am not worried. More worried I might not like the job or responsibilities but not worried about finding a job at all. I have 2 now- full time and prn. Full time is telework 4 days a week! Prn in a hospital.

  7. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

    A minor, but still annoying, and not at all reassuring complaint from today, in Toxic Dysfunctional Disorganized Jobland: the scheduler called to ask me if I’d be willing to pick up an extra shift this weekend; I already work one weekend shift. The one she named to me as needing to be covered…was my own weekend shift. The one I’ve been working since time began. The one that is supposed to be permanently allotted to me. Insert facepalm.

    This has happened…far too often.

    I need out of this f***ing mess of a place.

    1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

      And yes, I’m very curious as to whether or not they asked someone else to work my own shift before coming to me. (I won’t get a satisfactory answer to this, but I can still wonder.)

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I guess you can be the hero if you volunteer to do the shift that you already thought you were doing.

      Or can you get double paid if you do your shift AND your shift simultaneously?

      So many options.

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        Or can you get double paid if you do your shift AND your shift simultaneously?

        I LIKE this idea. :) The sad part is, if it were possible for me to sign in twice, they probably wouldn’t even notice, and just…pay me twice.

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      The one job that I didn’t give 2 weeks’ notice to kept screwing up my schedule. (They literally scheduled me time I couldn’t work, because I would be at my FT career-focused job. There was no point in giving notice, as I couldn’t work the times I was scheduled anyway.)

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        Oh god, I had a job that did this as well. Like scheduling me to work days when I was in high school and would be in class, and they also got no notice from me! But that was a restaurant environment where I expected high disorganization and dysfunction. My current job is a corporate office where everyone works pretty much the same set of shift hours into eternity, so the lack of being able to keep track of the regular schedules is especially egregious.

      2. My Useless 2 Cents*

        I got a second job about 10 years ago because I wanted to take a trip to Italy. That was the reason I gave for wanting a second job, I was very open about the trip. The trip itself was scheduled when I took the job and I informed owner/manager about dates(about 8 months out). I reminded the owner/manager a month before the trip that I wouldn’t be available on those days. I reminded again three weeks out. I wasn’t schedule for the next two weeks or I would have reminded her again. Went on my one-week trip. Came back and called to see if I was scheduled and was informed that I was unreliable and no-showed my shift the previous week…. the week of my trip. I quit on the spot and haven’t set foot in the store since.

        OP, so sorry, your situation sounds very frustrating.

        1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

          ARGH I am raging on your behalf! When they screw up but take it out on you…I understand the destructive motivations behind arson a bit better.

      3. firestarter11*

        I had this happen in college when I worked at McDonald’s! They kept scheduling me during class, and I found a better job tutoring adults getting their GEDs, which aligned much more with my interests.

        My roommate’s boyfriend lectured me about how awful and irresponsible I was for not giving a 2-week notice. He was my age (21) and had never worked a day in his life, so I don’t know why he was so worked up about it. Like, okay, cool, let me just quit school for two weeks at the beginning of the semester so I can work my shift at McDonald’s.

        1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

          He was my age (21) and had never worked a day in his life, so I don’t know why he was so worked up about it.

          Sadly, I have met far too many men who think it’s their mission in life to put other people in their place (usually women) and keep them there. If you didn’t actually do anything wrong, they’ll manufacture something. And the less they know about a subject, the harder they’ll try to push themselves as the Prime Authority on the matter over you.

    4. Heather*

      You’re a nurse, right?? No, probably not, but that just sounds SO MUCH like my own job at an FQHC. That exact thing has happened before.

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        Haha, not even remotely med-adjacent (unless you count the number of times I’ve had to call an ambulance for people here due to unsafe working conditions). But I have family working in medical, so I’m not at all surprised by your comment!

  8. Somewhere out west*

    I have been anxiously awaiting all of my background checks/tests to clear for a new job. My current position doesn’t know I am leaving, so it’s been a weird headspace of pushing forward projects with the almost-certainty that I won’t be there to guide them.

    Has anyone else been in this position? If so, how do you handle the anxiousness attached to it?

    1. Fig*

      Me! Very recently, in fact. Just look forward to it as something exciting – because it is! As soon as I got my offer, I almost totally mentally checked out of my previous job, but I didn’t feel bad because it is the most toxic place on the planet.

    2. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Yes a few months ago! There was absolutely nothing in my background that would come up but I was still anxious because New Job wouldn’t give an official start date until that cleared. So it was an awkward week where I couldn’t give notice, yet I knew I would be.

      I felt like I was lying, but really I just had to pretend it wasn’t happening. What I did start doing was making a list of projects and whom I could hand off to, looking at and updating procedures if needed. So when it did clear and J gave notice I already had a plan.

    3. Moths*

      Whenever I’ve been in that position, I tried to think of it as helping to get those projects into the best possible place before I leave. It’s still a little awkward, since you have to accept projects with the knowledge that you might only be there a couple more weeks, but what can you do in the meantime that will help whoever takes them over for you? Can you get all of the tasks outlined and assigned to the persons responsible? Can you ensure you’ve got good documentation on how to do those projects and the background on them? It’s hard not to get a bit of “senioritis” near the end, but if you can think of this time as a way to double down on proactively getting these projects to the best spot for handoff, it may help you not feel so anxious about taking them on.

    4. ScruffyInternHerder*

      Very loud and aggressive music through my headphones and more checklists and notating than usual.

  9. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

    Hi! Can anyone give me cover letter feedback? (I am posting an outline I use, not any actively cover letters.)

    Obviously I have used this site as a huge resource with both resume and cover letter help, but I am also the type of person who sometimes needs more concrete feedback, if that makes any sense? Just for some background, I am looking for jobs that are in document control and quality assurance at the moment, and I am applying to more entry-level poisons. But honestly, I’ll take anything that’s full-time with generally regular hours at this point. This job hunt is emotionally draining….

    So, anyway, the format I generally follow for cover letters is:

    Paragraph 1: Say how excited I am to be applying for this position. I also note that I know my applying for this position might be a little odd given my experience (that’s in mostly libraries but also restaurants and hospital volunteering, and I don’t have a lot of concrete numerical experience to talk about), but that I am specifically looking for jobs that have more regular hours. Note: I don’t say this, but I also want jobs that are better paying than libraries and that aren’t as much pressure because I am not a social worker. If anyone can give specific wording on how to better say this, I’d include it. I don’t want to tell them my life story or to bash the library profession, but I do want to give context as to why I am applying.

    P2-3: I look at the qualifications listed in the description and then I pick a couple to talk about how I match them (this is right, right? Or should I be looking at what I’d be doing in the job?). So like if a job asks for attention to detail, I talk about how I catalog audiovisual materials at my library job, because that means I have to follow a specific process: make sure each item is correct in the library system and has all the appropriate and necessary stickers on it before I even think about putting it on the shelf. This might mean I have to re-create an item’s call number sticker or something like that. Or if a position talks about needing customer service experience, I talk about how libraries are high with customer service interactions, and give a couple examples of that. I try to talk about what attracted me to apply for this position and what skills I have that match.

    P4, if this applies: Possibly talk about how I am organized in my personal life, mention that my phone apps are color-coded into folders, etc.

    Then I thank them for their consideration and that I hope to hear from them soon!

    I try to keep them between 250-300 words and I do customize them as much as I can, but they generally do talk about the same things as I apply for generally similar positions. But I either don’t hear back or get rejections without even getting interviews, so. I’d love any feedback I can get! I also know that I can do everything “right” but at some point it’s out of my hands.

    Regardless, thank you to this community. You have all, at the very least, provided me with reading entertainment, and at best have helped me with this job hunt and also have given advice on how to navigate tricky situations at work.

    1. Just Your Everyday Crone*

      I think paragraph 1 should be that you want to transition into the Whatever industry because your XYZ skills are a good fit. The other stuff maybe for an interview (And not being a social worker is more like, I want to focus on these kinds of skills or activities and this type of job allows me to do that). Generally, translate it all into positives about the job you’re looking for and your fit there and not the negatives of your current work

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        Thank you! I definitely don’t want to bash the library field or anything like that, and I’ll work on incorporating this advice in my next cover letters.

      2. Trina*

        Yeah, I would jump straight into what draws you toward the specific job (or at least industry) that you’re apply for and what parts of your experience would apply to the job responsibilities. When I switched industries, I actually made a bullet pointed list that consisted of each major requirement for the position and gave a relevant example from my past experience for each. (The actual bullet-pointed format is probably hit or miss, though.)

        1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

          No, I like the bullet point idea, at least as a way for me to visually see how my experience translates! I can then put it in a non bullet point format, because I don’t think that would work to actually submit haha. Thank you!

    2. WellRed*

      Eek. Please don’t include the paragraph about your organized personal life and color coded folders.

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        I don’t include it a lot, but I read on Alison’s cover letter post that mentioning things like that would help. But maybe I misunderstood.

        Anyway, again, thankfully I don’t do it a lot and focus more on my professional skills, but now I’m inwardly cringing.

        1. londonedit*

          If it’s appropriate then it’s good to talk about being organised, but definitely don’t relate it to your personal life or your phone. If you’re generally that organised then you must be the same way at work, so find something work-related to mention, like ‘I have developed extremely effective organisational skills in my current role and implemented a system of [blah], which has helped me to increase my own productivity and that of my department by ensuring that files are correctly labelled and instantly identifiable’ or whatever.

          1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

            Oh okay, that makes sense! So at one of my library jobs, I ordered materials for specific areas of the collection. I had a giant Google spreadsheet for the ordering, but each area had its own tab (that was then color coded). Would that be more applicable?

            1. introverted af*

              Yeah, that’s a good example. And if you’re able to relate that to an outcome (e.g. “we ordered all materials required, and because of the system we caught something we missed,” or “this allowed us to avoid additional shipping costs needed for extra orders” or “we met our goal for having everything in place by XYZ”) that’s even better. You don’t need to get into the specifics of how you organized, but you need to show that you can do it, and that your doing it in the past had a positive impact.

              Double bonus if you’re able to relate the outcome you achieved to another value/principle the job description is looking for – timeliness, cost efficiency, attention to detail, etc.

        2. Mac*

          Don’t cringe! I also feel like I have a tendency to be overly personal in cover letters, and seeing this concrete example was really useful. Thanks for being brave and putting your stuff out there for feedback so that us shyer folks will also benefit!

          1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

            :’) omg I’m glad I could help!

            And I’m still glad I posed this, because then I know what I need to work on, but others might too!

        3. aubrey*

          This paragraph could be totally appropriate depending on the job! e.g. in my very casual startup, we really like a conversational tone in cover letters, and we’d like something like this for a job requiring organizational skills. Our job postings are very conversational and super formal cover letters and resumes are actually an indicator of poor fit for us. If the job posting is written in a formal tone though, I’d agree don’t include it.

          1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

            This is good to keep in mind, formal v not formal job postings and making your cover letter match to that.

            1. Cordelia*

              And maybe the same for the interview. Some are more formal than others. I wouldn’t put the colour coding on a cover letter, but think you could absolutely mention it in an interview “I even colour code my phone apps!” But as an aside, an extra, rather than holding it up seriously as a work skill. I’d warm to this, as an interviewer (but then I am very impressed by your colour coding and thinking of doing this myself now…)

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I agree with Everyday Crone — paragraph 1 should be about how to you are looking to transition to New Field as you will be able to do more of the x, y, z skills that you learned and enjoyed being a professional librarian and you think you are a good match for the skills they need. Then go into more detail on specific skills that match the position in paragraph 2 as you are doing. Don’t even hint at it being an unusual match or why you want to leave the library. Just approach it as of course you are qualified. I am fine mentioning the phone apps being color coordinated (as Alison as mentioned previously) but more as a personal aside to bolster work experience, not as a specific qualification.

      1. ecnaseener*

        I actually disagree re “don’t even hint at it being unusual” – it IS unusual, and they’re not going to magically not notice that if you ignore it, so I think it’s smarter to lean into it. If you don’t acknowledge the field change at all, you risk them thinking you’re just looking for any old job to pay the bills while you try to get back into library work.

        1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

          This is exactly why I acknowledge it – briefly, maybe a sentence or two, but I don’t want them to think in applying for any and everything.

    4. I should be working right now*

      1) It sounds like you’re doing a great job linking your existing skills to the job descriptions. Do you have any way to quantify your examples? (EG “managed library budget of $X,” or “averaged 50 user interactions daily”?) Numbers tend to make people take soft skill examples more seriously.
      2) I think it’s likely that you’re coming across as a bit defensive about your switch away from libraries, and making this too central to your cover letter. The employer probably is less focused on this than you’re imagining. I’d switch this part out for a brief positive statement focused on why you’re excited about entering this particular field. EG “I’m looking to transition into document control and quality assurance work because I really enjoy XYZ.” If you can add specifics related to why you might be excited about this particular company even better. A particular way to stand out can be to cite aspects of this job that you would particularly enjoy that many people wouldn’t, e.g. “While I know that not everyone is passionate about quality assurance, I genuinely enjoy doing XYZ, and would like it to be a big part of my next role.”
      3) Having been on the other side of the hiring table, there are often dozens or hundreds of fairly similar cover letters, and there can be a lot of randomness in who gets an interview, no matter how hard you try to find the right fit resumes and cover letters. If you can get a personal intro via someone who works there, this will very often get your resume given a much more thorough look. Weirdly, the intro often doesn’t need to come from someone who knows you or your work well. If you think your cover letter is pretty good and you still aren’t getting to the interview stage, I suggest looking through your 2nd degree LinkedIn connections and focusing on applying to openings where you can get one of them to flag your resume as a referral.

      1. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

        1. Thank you! :) I have experience maintaining a library budget, although I don’t remember the specifics. I just know I was given a budget of $x and then had to maintain or meet that number as much as I could. Should I try to find specific numbers or make up a ballpark?
        2. Ooo I love all this wording, thank you!!! I definitely don’t want to talk about why I’m leaving libraries too much, but I also don’t want them to think I’m applying for anything just because it’s full-time.
        3. I’ll keep this in mind!

        1. WellRed*

          I think you could just say “managed $6 million annual budget” or whatever applies.

  10. Fabulous*

    When you start a new job, how long should it take to feel comfortable in it?

    I know it’ll be different for most roles, but I started at the end of March, and I feel like I’m still behind. I’m definitely the lowest on the totem pole in the group–pretty sure everyone else is a “consultant” while my role is a “specialist–and it definitely shows in the work I’m taking on. I’m not really a lead on any projects (though I don’t feel like I should be at this point regardless), but I’m trying to volunteer to shadow the others and get involved, but there’s still not much for me to be doing at this point 4 months in. I still haven’t gotten up to speed on the programs I wanted to learn because I don’t have any work in those areas. I’m finding I still don’t have access to certain programs because I haven’t had cause to use them, etc.

    This isn’t a new-new job, it was an internal transfer, so maybe my expectations were a little off-kilter, but I feel like I should be doing more… am I off base?

    1. Xaraja*

      Depending on the level of the work, I would say it takes 6 months to learn the culture and systems and a year to really really get your feet. I usually feel like I know what’s what at 6 months and then look back at a year and think “wow I really didn’t know as much as I thought”. I tend to stay at jobs 5-7 years, so I might have a longer term view on things.

      I’m concerned they aren’t letting you into bigger projects and areas you are interested in. You will have trouble growing with that exclusion. It’s something to watch and think about. Hopefully they’re just busy and as you prove yourself you will get more access and interesting work.

      1. Lives in a Shoe*

        I generally agree with the timeline, but if you’re fully/mostly remote, add about 50% time.

        1. Fabulous*

          Oooh I never took remote into consideration! That would explain soooo much because I’ve worked remotely for the last 2.5-3 years and have only ever experienced this feeling in the last 2 positions I’ve held (remotely). Mind BLOWN.

    2. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      I moved roles internally this year and thus week was my 6th month in the role, and while I’m much more confident I’m still getting my feet under me. I get good feedback internally so I know it’s just a me thing, but give yourself a bit of time I’d say.

    3. SansaStark*

      I think different jobs/people/teams/organizations are all going to feel kinda different. I’ve been at my new job about 8 months and there are moments where I feel really at-home, seen, and appreciated. There are other moments where I feel like it’s taking me forever to catch up to where everyone else is. One thing that’s really helped me in those “down” moments is by just asking my boss where I am compared to her expectations. Also that’s great that you’re volunteering to shadow and get involved! It’s a great way to learn and to work on becoming a great team member.

    4. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I’ve only felt comfortable after some accomplishments, so usually the feeling increases slowing, between month 3-9. The first ~2 months you sort of feel like a liability, and just have to deal with it and know it will be over soon

    5. AnnonAnthro*

      FYI, “lowest on the totem poll” isn’t really 100% accurate. Some Native American/ First Nations groups have the most important figure on the bottom, some have them on the top, and others in the middle.

    6. Little Miss Sunshine*

      Hopefully you are meeting regularly with your manager, a supportive and reasonable person, and you can discuss your concerns with them.

      I regularly speak to each of my direct reports about job-related goals and expectations, and ask for their concerns. This is a standing agenda item that I expect them to be proactive about, but I also ask them to be sure that they have opportunities to bring up their concerns or to discuss mine.

      If not your manager, perhaps a colleague that you have developed a rapport with could be approached for feedback. In a healthy workplace, such conversations should be happening regularly. I hope that you feel comfortable soliciting feedback to find your groove!

    7. Sandy*

      I’m nearing seven months in a new job that was a stretch role, and finally on some days feel like I know what I’m doing but still frequently run across situations where I feel like I’m floundering a little (or a lot). I’ve been getting good feedback, but am definitely not completely comfortable yet.

  11. Fed-Job-Or-Bust*

    Happy Friday everyone!

    Unfortunately I am job searching after being laid off again. The first was directly pandemic related, the second was inflation related as the company I was working for saw their business drop 70% with the doubling of interest rates (mortgage bank). I survived the first round, but not the second, and I was told during my layoff that they’re betting that there will be a third round later this year.

    Needless to say I’m pretty bummed, but I know I’m not alone (not that it helps knowing that). I’m all about maximizing stability for my next job search, and with that, I am focusing on federal government jobs. The applications ask if they can contact former employers. I’ve have a couple of former bosses that I would rather they not contact because while they offered to provide a reference, I don’t know if I can trust them on it after witnessing separate but equally shady business practices.

    That said, if I put no on the federal applications (or any application), is that an immediate strike out? Or should I put the contact info and then hope they don’t contact? I’ve got some good achievements at both jobs.

    Thank you everyone, and for the tens of thousands who are also looking due to recently announced layoffs, good luck and I hope it’s a short hiatus!

    1. anonymous73*

      I can’t answer your question, but personally I feel like the risk of saying no is lower than the risk of saying yes and having a former manager say something that may jeopardize your chances (or at least it will hurt less.. if they put your application aside because you said no, you wouldn’t be contacted whereas if they’re contacting references you’re further along in the hiring process). Good luck! I’ve been laid off 3 times in my career and it sucks big time.

    2. oh geez*

      I put “please ask first” or whatever that option was, and didn’t give my current supervisor once I reached interview phase. I was directly asked why and explained I didn’t want to alert that I was job searching since my employer was actively conducting layoffs. The hiring manager understood and I was offered the job.

      That being said, the frustrating truth is that it totally depends on the individual hiring manger’s views on the matter and their background, so the practicality of advice in general is limited.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Fed employee here – I also had “ask me first” as an option, which I chose for my most recent couple of managers. (One would have been great, one would have been extremely iffy, I just chose it so I would be notified first.) No one asked about it or ever followed up with me on any references at all. However, due to the niche-field nature of the job I’d met or had worked with 4 of 6 of the interview panel in the past, so they might have felt that any additional reference wasn’t needed.

        If you have the option, definitely use it and have a solid explanation if you’re asked. Good luck!

        1. CG*

          Fed too, and same here. I will also note that I’ve interviewed for and held jobs at several different agencies, and managers that wanted to talk to my references always asked me explicitly for a list of updated references when they actually planned to call them. Hiring from USAJobs sometimes takes ages, so it’d be an odd move for a federal manager to call someone without first checking with the candidate that info was still up-to-date (and that the manager could actually helpfully speak to someone’s work on the job – not all of my managers have even known much about my day-to-day work).

      2. Fed-Job-Or-Bust*

        What concerns me about that is that you have to put the contact information in, or it doesn’t allow you to continue on with the application, so they could just reach out without asking.

        My wife and I have been discussing this. She got a federal job and hit no because she has a former job and manager she would rather forget. But I know every personnel person is different. I was hoping one of them reads this and could give me the SOP on it so we know.

        1. oh geez*

          Again, can’t speak for everyone, but we always ask the candidate for their references when they interview rather than using those provided. It’s usually the same set, but we always ask the candidate to resend them AND to notify their references to expect a call.

    3. Shutdown Veteran*

      There’s a place to mark “contact me first” or something like that. Beware! I’ve been an intern and then fed since 2008. Shutdowns are no fun. On the bright side, we’re guaranteed backpay now. Not that helps when the tent is due *now,* but it’s something.

  12. Back to work*

    Are there (legit!) coaches (or therapists?!) that help you work through professional options/transitions when you’re mid-career? I’m 36 discerning next steps after taking some time out of full time work for kids…and I just don’t know where to start! I think maybe there are jobs I would be good at but I don’t even know they exist. I feel so overwhelmed by the idea of all that could be possible but don’t know how to start. I feel like I’m graduating from college all over again

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      My local community college has a nice career center with aptitude testing and reviews of results. It was free because I am a member of the local area.

      They also have a decent networking for adults group.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      I have definitely heard of people being helped by this as a legit thing: word of mouth is so important to finding someone with legit skills who is well suited to help you. (Since everyone in the thread could hang out our life coach shingle tomorrow.)

    3. CatCat*

      There definitely are legit career coaches, and I am sure there are also a lot of crappy ones.

      I found mine by googling for something like “alternative careers for [profession].” That led me to articles on the topic, including one by the career coach I ended up using, who focuses on people working to move out of a specific profession. That led me to listening to the coach’s podcast (very, very good and thought provoking) and signing up for a free webinar, which was sort of like a one hour nutshell version of her program (and I think on its own would have been super helpful for someone not looking for more hands-on help). I joined a group coaching program (she also offers 1:1) and that has been a good fit for me.

      So I think there are several steps to finding a coach that is a good coach and knows what they’re doing. But working with the coach and others in the program has been eye opening and extremely helpful.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      If this is anything like finding a therapist (which I have had to do several times), my hunch is word of mouth is the best way to approach it.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Doing this is my favorite thing — I do it as an Employment Counselor at my local Dept of Labor office. No cost to my customers.

      Check out careeronestop.org for some free career assessments … and links to descriptions of the jobs that the assessments suggest. There are SO MANY jobs that you have never heard of. I particularly like the fact that there’s videos connected to the job descriptions so you can see someone actually doing that job and talking about it. Somehow that makes it click for me.

    7. Books and Cooks*

      You’ve gotten great advice & suggestions already, but just in case, I wanted to mention temp or employment agencies. Often, the people who work there are very experienced and have pretty strong knowledge of the local labor and job markets, and can suggest options you haven’t thought of. And if nothing else, trying out a few temp positions can be a good transition back into the workforce. My husband went to an agency when we first arrived back in the US, and within days had a job in a new-to-him industry that was and is still pretty booming; a bit of time there plus his previous decades of management gave him the industry-specific knowledge and experience to get back into management at a different company in that industry (which generally requires that specific knowledge & experience from managers, and Husband doesn’t have a degree so the industry-specific stuff was especially important for him).

      Best of luck to you!

    8. Little Miss Sunshine*

      There a both legit coaches and scam artists. I suggest you look for referrals from your personal and professional network to find legitimate options. Think carefully about what you want to accomplish, and interview the potential coaches. Every coach I have ever worked with offered a reasonable consultation to see if you are the right fit for each other. Check for online resources from women’s networking groups like Ellevate and Lean In, which often address women changing gears after having kids. You should be able to find some local resources pretty quickly to start vetting options.

    9. SofiaDeo*

      I agree with those who think aptitude testing is a good place to start. Find out what seems to match with your abilities/personality, that makes the challenge of a new job more like “fun stress” than “unpleasant stress.”

  13. Internist*

    I (female) am an intern in a male-dominated field. I’ve received a job offer to continue full-time with my internship company after my internship ends. I’ve requested to stay on the same team, but that’s not guaranteed. My current team is 40% women, but there are several adjacent teams with no women.

    Is there any professional way to state my preference for being placed on a team where I would not be the only woman? I don’t want to appear whiny or difficult, or imply that men would not be supportive of my career. Ultimately, I’ll do my best wherever I’m placed and accept the job offer regardless.

    2. Should I Apply? needs a new name*

      I’m a women in engineering, have often been the only women on a team and totally get where you are coming from. However, I probably wouldn’t frame the request as not being put on a team where I’m the only women, because based on my experience most men in the industry just don’t get it.
      If there are other reasons that you have for requesting that specific team I would highlight them, like you’re really interested in the work they are doing or X person is a really great mentor and you want to continue to work with them.

      2. Anonymous Koala*

        Seconded, as a fellow woman in STEM. Also many of the companies I’ve worked for have had professional groups for women at the company, like local chapters of SWE that they support. Maybe you could join one of them, even if you don’t get the team you want?

    3. Bread Addict*

      I would probably wait and see. I can’t think of a professional way to ask for that and it might come across weird. Especially if they already planned to keep you on the same team.

    4. Spearmint*

      I wouldn’t, it puts the employer in a bad position. I imagine they would worry that if they put you on a team with other women because it has other women that that could violate anti-discrimination law in some way.

      1. ecnaseener*

        This. Even if it’s your preference, they aren’t allowed to assign work based on gender.

    5. Purple Penguin*

      As a woman in tech, I find that (male) bosses tend to pair me up with female interns whether or not their actual specialty is a good match, as if they’re assuming there’s some sort of secret girl handshake. So it seems likely to me that you’d end up on a team with women on it, unless there’s a strong technical reason that they think your skills would be a great fit on another team. Probably.

      The most professional way I can think to to stack the deck would be to include an offhand remark about how great it’s been working on a team with Jane and Anne and how their example (and Claudia on the other team) really give you confidence in XYZCorp’s support of women in tech (be more specific than that if possible). You’re not asking explicitly but you’re saying you’re aware of the gender imbalance and implicitly reminding them to take that into account.

    6. Zak*

      Unless you are willing to list specific teams that you work well with, I think your request is going to come across as highly unprofessional and almost childish. I don’t think this request can legally even be entertained. I don’t know why you picked a male dominated profession when you don’t like working with men. It would be like a male nurse that doesn’t want to work with women. That’s how much sense this is making.

      1. Rara Avis*

        She didn’t say she didn’t want to work with men — she said she’d prefer not to be the only woman. That’s very different.

          1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

            Her current team is 60% men and she’s fine with it. So no, “don’t like working with men” is neither what she said nor a claim for which there’s any evidence.

            But you’re doing a good job of illustrating how badly some people would take that request and the kind of wrong conclusion they might jump to!

      2. Just One of the Guys*

        Zak, you’re arguing a straw man– a completely different and more extreme position than the one originally brought up.

        Internist didn’t say she doesn’t like working with men, only that she prefers not to be the *only* woman on an *all-male* team. Reading “not wanting to be the only women” as if it were “not wanting any men” reminds me of the study that showed people perceive women as dominating a conversation when actually they spoke less than men. In either case, women didn’t even approach *equal* representation before being perceived as asking too much.
        What’s the saying? If you’re used to privilege, approaching equality feels like oppression.

        1. Zak*

          There is no straw man here. No one goes through the trouble of requesting to be placed on a team of women when they want to work with men. She obviously doesn’t and is willing to settle for 40% women. Again, it doesn’t make sense for her to join a male dominated field and have a problem with working with men or possibly being the only women on the team because it doesn’t matter. What if the male nurse didn’t want to be the only male in a group full of women? It would reflect very poorly and that’s what I’m trying to say.

          1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

            That may be what you think you’re trying to say, but it’s not. What you’re doing is the equivalent of hearing person A ask person B what they’d like for lunch, and the person answers, “Oh, I think I’d prefer fish.” Then you start screaming “OMG, B hates everything except fish, why are they even going to a restaurant that serves other food?!?!”

      3. Just stoppin' by to chat*

        Wow Zak…that was a very in appropriate tone in that statement, and not inline with this welcoming and supportive AMA community. As a female-identifying techie, I understand why the OP is hoping to be on a team that has at least some female coworkers. You clearly do not understand that mentality, so fine…just scroll on by. I hope you will reconsider, and likely your general mentality.

  14. Is anybody else ordering fries?*

    How do I get my coworker to quit immediately because I’m not sure I can work with them any longer? J/k, but also kind of not.

    I temporarily reported to my coworker, Jane, after our mutual manager left for a new job. Before our manager left I told him I was concerned about Jane’s management style (because she has control issues and is incredibly smug), but my former manager told me there was not another option and assured me that he would let Jane know that this was temporary and her job was to just approve time off in the system and do similar administrative functions. Jane has confirmed this as well.

    Wellllll, I’m now writing in because everything I was worried would happen did happen. I finally reached my breaking point this week when i was being lectured yet again that I was wrong and told Jane that she needed to treat to me like a colleague and not speak to me like I’m a child (I am painfully aware this was my error and I feel terrible about it).

    The next day I approached my new manager and asked him if he could let Jane know sooner rather than later that she’s not my manager. I also disclosed that we had a tense meeting but didn’t go into details (from what I gather Jane went into more detail with him but I’m not sure about the details). I apologized to Jane because I should have handled it better but held my ground that she needed to be more respectful. Whereas I thought she might have also apologized and accepted some blame, she told me that her tone was fine and proceeded to talk to me like she was my manager handling a performance issue.

    I’m livid at her and mortified at what my new manager might think of me. Is my only option to be the bigger person and let it go while our boss comes to his own conclusions about Jane?

    Other possibly relevant information: 1) Jane and I worked extremely well together before this. 2) our work is heavily tied together so I can’t keep my distance from her 3) It’s not clear if Jane is higher up than me or if we’re equal as I recently received a promotion (I’m union and Jane isn’t so our positions have different, non-comparable classification structures).

    1. JumpAround*

      If you’re comfortable I’d advocate for you, Jane, and your manager to have a conversation together so that you can both be in the same room and hear the same thing from them. It gets rid of “well to me they said…” arguments later

      1. Pass the Just For Men*

        That’s a good idea. It’s amazing what some choose to hear in private conversations, and if Jane has a tendency to dominate a conversation, she’ll find that easy to do with a new manager getting their footing.

        I don’t know if you need to call a meeting for that though, but in a usual meeting you all might have together to just add as a quick question to clear the air.

      2. Is anybody else ordering fries?*

        I would love for that to happen. While I don’t want to do this for what’s already happened, because I’m worried about being perceived as causing more drama, I will definitely be advocating for group discussions should anything change in the future. Thank you for your reply!

        1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

          You can frame it as trying to get everyone on the same page so you can move forward.

          I had a Jane for a while and the only thing that every improved things was when Jane, myself, and our boss all sat together, hashed it out and came up with how to move forward. We were never friends, but things did go better from there on out.

      1. Is anybody else ordering fries?*

        That’s reassuring to hear. I did not scream at Jane. I wanted to make sure my message was delivered in a calm tone so that it would come across clearly (although I wish I used less pointed language).

      2. Janet*

        Plenty of people like to use the word yelling when what they meant was sternly corrected. I think this is what I’m seeing here.

    3. mreasy*

      I mean, if you didn’t swear or yell at Jane, it seems like you handled it pretty well? If you hadn’t said that, she may not have understood what you were dealing with. Sometimes it feels like not “creating more drama” is the most important thing, while in reality, it’s alerting your manager of issues detrimental to your work & your workplace. This is one of those!

    4. pancakes*

      “Whereas I thought she might have also apologized and accepted some blame, she told me that her tone was fine and proceeded to talk to me like she was my manager handling a performance issue.”

      I’m not sure why you expected her to accept some blame while also expecting her to be problematic in this role. You thought she would be problematic, and she was, apparently in the same specific ways you expected her to be. Abandon the idea that she’s going to wake up one day and realize on her own that’s problematic and make a big thing of turning over a new leaf.

      “Is my only option to be the bigger person and let it go while our boss comes to his own conclusions about Jane?” Of course not, no. Why is communicating with your boss about the conclusions you want him to reach not a more prominent option? It seems you have an impulse to not share the details with boss, but if you want them to share your point of view about what happened you’re going to have to.

      1. Is anybody else ordering fries?*

        I expected her to fake a partial apology to try and move forward (that’s what I did). I know I won’t convince her she was wrong. That’s trying to get a square peg into a round hole.

        I think I view it as just trash talking another employee or that I would come off as gossipy because this feels a lot more like a personality conflict.

        Thank you for you insights! You’ve given me a lot to think about.

        1. pancakes*

          I think I see what you mean — the problem is that it seems to be part of her personality to try to undermine you, or undermine the way reporting works in this office, in terms of who reports to who, and what her limited scope of authority is. It isn’t gossipy to speak to your boss about her trying to do that, though, if you stick to the facts about how it unfolded and don’t speculate about why she behaves this way.

    5. My Useless 2 Cents*

      Any way you could take a day or two off? Some breathing room from the situation could help cool things down a bit and get things back on an even keel.

      Other than that, I’d try having a more detailed chat with new manager about the situation. That you discussed with leaving manager that you had concerns when Jane was put in the interim position because she can be a little controlling and that does not work well with you. You may understand that Jane believes she is being helpful. But Jane doesn’t understand that you see it as condescending and lacking in respect. Ask new manager for advice. (Asking for advice can be very flattering and smooth over a lot of ruffled feathers.)

  15. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I made a horrible irreparable mistake at work. I was going to quit my job, change my name and move to Madagascar, but my boss noted that would not in fact be necessary. Do you guys have any good stories of coping with a terrible mess up?

    1. ABCYaBye*

      Not specifically a terrible mess up, but I did make a pretty serious mistake by sending an email to an external partner instead of my boss (damn you, Outlook autofill). I went to my boss, admitting the mistake, and immediately tried to recall the email. My boss was concerned of course, but was appreciative that I admitted the mistake and then moved on. I’m not sure if the recipient ever received or read the email. It appears as though they didn’t. But owning up to the mistake was the best thing I could have done. Then don’t make the mistake again.

      I felt comfortable enough that I was even able to joke a few weeks later when I sent something to my boss that I didn’t copy the external partner … and my boss got a good laugh.

    2. Greenhouse Lackey*

      We order Easter lilies for churches every year. Last year I got the count way wrong (we have to order them since we don’t grow them ourselves). We were short 50 Easter lilies and our supplier was sold out. So I told my boss immediately and said I will search for other lilies so we can complete the church orders. I got them at Lowes (it cost the business over $100!!). My boss was fine since I owned my mistake and fixed it. This year I used Excel to keep up with the numbers and the count was fine.

      But still. I wanted to cry when I realized we were short.

    3. sparrow*

      Yes! One time, early in my current job, I introduced an error to a product that went to print – and when it got found out, it had to get reprinted, which was expensive for the company. I was absolutely mortified, and I’m pretty sure I cried in front of my boss (unprofessional), but she was very understanding. Luckily, my department takes the view that mistakes usually mean that the process needs to be built differently to guard against these types of errors, and I learned never to manually rekey anything that could be copy/pasted to ensure its accuracy. I still remember the exact error that made it in, but I don’t think anyone else could tell you what the error was. I kept my job and have even survived a couple rounds of layoffs at this job. If it wasn’t a fireable offense, your job now is to show you’ve learned from your mistake. Best of luck!

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Well the situation was so rare that I’ll probably work years and not see it again.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Years ago I committed a horrible, non-recoverable, horrific mistake at work. I was sure I would be fired — I mean a “threw the entire department into chaos, made an already bad situation much worse, took a bad relationship with another critical department and turned it into open warfare” mistake. I was shocked when I wasn’t fired. I recovered by apologizing to everyone I had wronged, and most importantly, by being scrupulously careful in the future to not make a similar mistake and going out of my way to try to repair the damage.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      At my old hospital, I used to be in charge of handling bundled ambulance bills. (Short version: If you’re inpatient at Hospital A, Medicare won’t pay claims submitted by anyone else during that inpatient stay, they have to get sent to Hospital A who is responsible for paying them and then bundling them into your bill for that stay. It’s more complex than that, but that will do for this story.) We had a lot of patients who needed to be ambulanced over to our sister hospital for treatments we didn’t perform in-house, so we had a contract with a local ambulance company to provide these bundled services at a contract rate. They were in the middle of renegotiating the contract, and I was told to hold all ambulance bills until that was completed. So I just chucked ’em all into a box until someone told me it was done.

      Well, they forgot to tell me, and I forgot to follow up. Until one day when I got an email from my five-greats grand-boss, the CFO, cc’ing every boss in between us, asking me why the ambulance company was pitching tantrums that they hadn’t been paid in nine months and by their records we owed them almost a million dollars. When my boss came to find me, I was literally huddled on the floor under my desk in absolute tears, convinced she was on her way to frog-march me out the door. (She talked me down off the ledge very nicely, I explained what went wrong and copped to my contribution to the issues, she goes “How fast can we get this fixed?” and I had all the invoices processed and submitted for payment by EOB that day. So it worked out okay in the end, but lord, I was a wreck.)

    6. West Coaster*

      I have done this. Own that you made the mistake, that you know it was serious, tell your boss the steps you are taking to correct it and ensure it doesn’t happen again, make sure it doesn’t happen again, and don’t fall on your sword about it. You don’t want to come off as sniveling or unconfident, but you also don’t want to be nonchalant about it.

      I’ve also found that some of the most egregious mistakes I’ve made have also been made by others in my role at different organizations.

      And that some of those mistakes taught me valuable lessons.

      I also still choose to wake up at 3am freaked out about mistakes I made five years ago, so there’s that.

    7. Bagpuss*

      I lost a client file – as in, left the office with it for an external meeting, got back without it. (I had a lot of heavy stuff and it was a lever arch file, I am nearly sure that what hapened was that I put it ontop of my car while I unlocked the car, and then drove off , and that it presumably fell off at some point during the drive back.
      I drove striaght back to check the car park, and to check with the local police station in case it havd been handed in, then had a sleepless night as it was well after the office awas closed when I discovered it was gone.
      It had a bunch pof personal finacial information about a client’s personal finances so a confidentiality / date loss nightmare.

      I was pretty junior, had only been in my then job for about 3 months, and had come from a VERY dysfuntional officewhere my boss was a backstabbing liar, so I was fully expecting to be fired on the spot.
      In fact, the person I told as soon as I got in was great – he immediately told me that the things I had already done were exactly the right first steps and said “lets sit down and work out what we need to do next so we can fix this” his making it a ‘we’ problem rather than a ‘me’ problem was hugely helpful , and he also encouraged me to make suggestions about the next steps (which made me feel I was also part of the solution) and was also very flexible about which awkward phone calls I made and which he dealt with.

      He had a lot of faults as a manager but that particular situation couldn’t have been handled better . IIRC we also kept the client happy – they got a preemptive apology, and I think a discount for any hassle they had if they felt they needed to change account details or sign up for extra credit reports etc.

      In a different job, when I was panicking becasue of a problem which was not actually my fault, but which caused a lot of hassle (I got taken ill at court and while the court staff called an ambulance, the ,essage didn’t get through to the Judge in my hearing that I was busy collapsing in the waiting room, so was treated as a no show, which meant we had to then get some orders amended) my then collegues cheered e up when I was back in the office with tales of their own Horrible Disasters – whcih included one person who tried to apply for probate for someone who wasn’t yet dead (very awkward conversations with them and their executors!) and one who had got very stressed due to getting held up on the way to court, panicked, got into the Judge’s chambers for her applicantion and couldn’t speak at all and burst into tears. (The Judge was very kind, took her file from her,. read it, wrote out an order in longhand and passed it to her saying “I think this is the order you were sent here to get, Ms Name” !)

      Which all left me feeling that I wasn’t the only one who made mistakes.

    8. NeonFireworks*

      I made an error like this during my second year in my line of work, only a few months after I joined my current workplace. It looked fine on the surface, but underneath it was an absolute mess. I went back and forth and decided to report it to my boss. She chewed me out about it for more than an hour, and when I was on the verge of tears, she also gave me a lecture about not appearing “overly emotional” at work. I was about to quit on the spot when she paused and admitted that at the beginning of her career at our workplace, about 20 years ago, she made the exact same error.

      1. Juneybug*

        Well that was an emotional roller-coaster ride! I hope you no longer work for that person (who handled the situation terribly).

    9. Fabulous*

      I’ve had quite a few working as a temp throughout the years. Here are some highlights that I can remember off the top of my head:

      – Working reception for a financial firm, client calls in to get some info on her account. Normally I’d just transfer to customer service, but I was new and knew I had access to answer her questions, so I did. Well, I was not trained on security measures and she called me on not performing any prior to releasing info on her account. I don’t kn0w the official outcome, but she said she would be closing her account. Never answered any other questions for callers again, regardless of type.

      – Same place. Guy comes in for an appointment, signs the log book, has his appointment and needs to bring a check back to complete a transaction. He supposedly comes back and drops off the check, but doesn’t sign the log book, and the check is MIA. I don’t recall him coming back in, and there were no checks at the front desk, so we surmise that he must have come while I was at lunch and the other (more flighty/disorganized) admin was covering the front desk, which the security cameras confirmed. This guy… holy crappola… called and harrassed/berated/degraded me no less than 30 times when he discovered that his transaction never went through. I hung up on him more than once and ended up not even answering his calls after a while since I don’t/no one deserves to be talked to like that. I think his actions outshadowed anything I did, but wow. I was literally scared for my life from that one.

      – Was working at a warehouse, first job out of college, and a project came in that my department was involved in (my department = just me) where I had to make like 30 large teapot covers – and by large I mean like 5′ tall. Because I was a newbie, most project meetings were held without me, but also no one ever communicated when they were, what action items I needed to do based on the meetings, or deadlines. So there I was just minding my own business only making 1 or 2 a day because they were so unwieldly and frustrating to work on, and lo and behold the supposed delivery date flies past without my knowledge. So I ended up scrambling to finish them all, my boss even joined in, and they were pretty crappy quality. No idea how much money they lost on that deal… I didn’t stay around for that much longer after this fiasco, but I have no clue how they didn’t walk me out the door that day.

    10. Nesprin*

      Sure- when I was a callow young engineer, boss handed me the widget, reminded me that widget was expensive and delicate, and if the widget broke, our schedule for work using the widget would be completely borked.

      I (of course) broke the widget. I went and fessed up to boss, apologized profusely, and considered moving to Antarctica.

      A day later, I made an off hand comment on how maybe we could build a thingamambob instead of always relying on the widget to a coworker, who dragged me back to meet with boss (to my compounded mortification). Boss said good idea, gave me the money to build the thingamambob, and without the widget, I sure had the time to build it. It worked, and I finished the project faster than I would have been able to with the widget.

    11. Everything Bagel*

      I was reviewing a report that I prepared and had filed with a state agency when I found an error that I had made. I immediately jumped to the conclusion that this error was going to cause us to lose this project with a value of $13 million in cold hard cash. I completely lost my mind, could barely breathe and was trying to silently cry at my desk, I may have been having a panic attack. My boss was out for an appointment. Instead of calling him immediately, I thought I would bring him a solution along with the problem and so I called the state agency involved in the project to discuss the error. I had to leave a message for someone. Then I called my boss and told him about the error and that I had gone ahead and called the agency about it. He was very calm and kind in telling me that was the wrong move, I should have talked to him before calling the agency, and I probably wasn’t going to lose us 13 million dollars. I was so inconsolable and panicked he actually called me on the following Sunday to make sure I was okay because he knew how upset I was.
      I was mortified over the error and my impulsive attempt at resolving it, and was positive I would lose my job over all of it.
      We didn’t lose the money and I didn’t lose my job. I probably have a dozen other stories of times I made mistakes that cost us something, but that time was the worst of the worst as far as how I felt about it at the time. That time also taught me a lesson and now I try to be very careful in how I approach finding my mistakes and correcting them.

    12. Fiona*

      Is anyone dead because of your mistake? No? Then you have to take a deep breath, remember you’re human, and it’s just work. Your boss only wants to hear the following:
      – This was my responsibility
      – I know how the mistake happened
      – These are the steps that I’ve taken to ensure it won’t happen again.

      I think 99% of what people remember is not the error, but how someone handled it. I also would make sure you’re not putting it on your boss to absolve you/forgive you/make you feel better. If you were super, genuinely remorseful (which it sounds like you were), that’s enough. Just go back to work and do your job well and everyone will forget about this. And if you need to feel better, just google search “worst mistake I made at work” or whatever. You’ll find you’re not alone!!!!

    13. I don't mean to be rude, I'm just good at it*

      Working a job just out of high school (a big insurance company with some guy named Jonathan making it famous) a co-worker sent a file box with hundreds of un-cashed checks and undocumented payments to storage.

      Although I had nothing to do with it, I was chosen to fix the problem. I was responsible for contacting every client (all were over 65) and explaining to them that their insurance was not cancelled and they were having their checks returned and giving 3 free months of insurance.

      It was horrible, but I persevered and it made me a more valuable employee as I learned many customer service lessons, some that I still use today.

  16. Amber Rose*

    I don’t know if its Covid or flu but both the husband and I are very, very sick. I can’t get his fever down, and I also can’t hardly move or breathe.

    But, well, I have responsibilities. I’m trying to balance my needs with work needs and I’m struggling. Everyone at work needs something from me, I am still a choke point for way too many tasks despite my efforts to cross train other people… and I desperately need sleep. It’s been three years since I had so much as a cold and I forgot how friggin miserable it is to be sick. I’m in pain, I’m fatigued, the medicine makes me dizzy.

    WFH is a double edged sword, in this case. In previous years or jobs I’d call in sick and then that’d be it. But I have my work phone and my work dedicated laptop and almost everything can be done from my couch.

    To what extent can I reasonably ask people if it can wait until Monday when I’m less busy suffering? Should I just set my out of office and ignore it all?

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I’d tell people I’m sick, and let the cards fall where they may. I get sick often abd I notice that if I don’t rest it just drags the unproductivity out .

    2. Former Recruiter, Current HR Generalist*

      You can still call in sick from WFH jobs. Not sure why you wouldn’t?

      1. Attractive Nuisance*

        +1. Especially if you are a manager, I’m very disturbed by the message you’re sending! Do you expect your staff to WFH while sick?

      4. ABCYaBye*

        Absolutely! While you make be a choke point, that doesn’t mean that you cannot advocate for yourself. If you need to call in sick, do it. If you can log in and take care of some things when you have energy to do so, feel free, even if it is 2 am and even if it is for an hour. But you need to be a model for your team, too. They’re going to follow your lead. Show them that it is better to get better and not press through. If you’re not able to be fully present, you shouldn’t feel that you must be partially present.

    3. Oxford Comma*

      WFH doesn’t mean you can’t call in sick. You are literally ill. You are talking about being in pain and being dizzy. You said you are having trouble breathing and moving. Call in. Don’t look at your email. Don’t answer your phone. Ignore the laptop.

      Also, if you’re having trouble breathing maybe you ought to call your doctor’s office. Feel better soon.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      the husband and I are very, very sick. I can’t get his fever down, and I also can’t hardly move or breathe

      Take a sick day! Or several!

      This is not “I’ll work from home because I have a cold (runny nose, sneezing, mild headache).” This is “I can hardly breathe and I desperately need to sleep.” Listen to your body and take the time off you need to recover. I vote for tell your manager you’re taking a sick day, set your out-of-office, and power down your work devices for the weekend.

      Hope you feel better soon!

    5. eBench*

      If you have sick leave, take it. It’s for you to rest and heal, not carry everyone else’s problems from your couch.

    6. DisneyChannelThis*

      Take a sick day!!!!!!!!!

      Set an auto-reply and if you have chat your chat status. Then turn off the phone and laptop until Monday. People will have to deal.

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      You are sick. Take a sick day (or several). I’ve worked from home for over a decade and it is fine to take sick days when you are sick.

    8. Alex*

      Set your out of office and ignore it all, definitely.

      The world won’t end if stuff has to wait. Even if it is “urgent”. Tell people you are too sick to work and get back to bed!

    9. Asenath*

      If I were that sick, I’d just shut everything down, take my sick leave, and do no work. I’ve never really understood why it’s OK to be sick, but still have to work if I were working from home. I can see borderline cases – if I weren’t really very sick, and the break from the commute was all I needed. And I can understand cases where there is no paid sick leave, and the worker can’t afford to take the time off. But if you’re so sick that you can hardly move or breathe, you need to rest and care for yourself, and NOT work. That’s what sick leave is for! It’s not just to prevent you from spreading your illness; it’s to help you recover.

    10. Cat Lady*

      I work from home and have (presumptive, haven’t tested positive yet) covid and took several days off. I could barely lift my head off the pillow. You can’t sacrifice your body for your job, the only way you will get better is with rest so you need to take it. Be kind to yourself. Work will be there on Monday or next Wednesday, whenever you are feeling better. Log off and take a nap.

    11. Ashloo*

      Seriously eff work. Do you have a pulse oximeter? Can’t reduce fever and trouble breathing are severe enough to think about going to the hospital, and that’s plenty good enough for your workplace to wait on whatever they need from you.

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s the congestion. Every time I get sick it sinks into my lungs. :/
        I’ve dealt with so many lung infections that I can confidently say i’m not at hospital level yet.

        1. Nesprin*

          Be careful. Am old hat with lung crud, but when I had ccovid I didn’t feel it when my spO2 was dropping.

    12. Bagpuss*

      Yes, absolutely, set your OOO, do wahever needs to be done to record that you are taking time off sick and then turn eveything off and take care of yourself.
      If need be, set your internal OOO to say you are unwell and won’t be able to check mail / answer calls, and direct people to your manager for anything urgent. (that way, you have done what you can to ensure that if there is anything genuinely urgent, it can be flagged up with someone who has the seniority to deal with it, and if they don’t, you have covered your back)

      I hope you and your husband feel better soon.

    13. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

      Take real sick days. This “but you can still work from home” crap must die. I worked from home with COVID because we were short-staffed, and I regret it. I’m pretty sure it extended my illness. Write something like “My fever is too high for me to be reliable today.” Then log off and turn off your phone.

    14. Irish Teacher*

      Honestly, if you’re sick, you’re sick. That’s that. You shouldn’t be working if you aren’t well enough to.

      There ARE situations when one could be sick and able to work from home, like if you hurt your ankle and couldn’t walk far or drive but you otherwise felt fine or something, but that’s not your situation. You are ill and unable to work so take the time off.

    15. Ginger Pet Lady*

      Call in sick and then ignore until you are well. Let them feel the pain of the choke points they’re failing to address. You need to rest and recover, you can ABSOLUTELY tell them you are too sick to work. It’s 100% reasonable *no matter where you work*

    16. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      You can absolutely call in sick while WFH. If you are feeling bad, you really can’t concentrate on work and your body and mind need rest–you don’t need the stress of work when you are not feeling 100%

    17. danmei kid*

      Oh my god. SET YOUR OUT OF OFFICE AND IGNORE IT ALL. Designate a backup/delegate for time-critical stuff. WHY ARE WE STILL HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS TWO YEARS INTO A GLOBAL PANDEMIC? You’re no good to anyone dead but more to the point, your office will literally carry on long after you are mouldering in the grave. They will neither appreciate nor remember your noble sacrifice. TAKE TIME TO BE SICK.

    18. The Person from the Resume*

      I work from home full time. I have been off sick all week.

      You should be off sick resting, not trying to work, no matter if you can do your job from the sofa.

      1. The Person from the Resume*

        Also the only message I got back from my boss was “get well soon and don’t try to come back until you are healthy/ready.” That’s the kind of message a boss should send.

    19. Jenna Webster*

      Please call in sick and put your work computer and phone away until you are better!!! Working from home does NOT mean working while you’re sick. The company will benefit from you taking the time you need to get back on the top of your game.

    20. Observer*

      To what extent can I reasonably ask people if it can wait until Monday when I’m less busy suffering? Should I just set my out of office and ignore it all?

      Set your phone and email as “OOO” and have done. If you are that sick, it’s totally reasonable for you to not be available.

      So sad, too bad that you are the choke point. But that’s the risk a company takes with this kind of structure.

    21. Little Miss Sunshine*

      Call in sick, set your out of office to auto reply with the next best contact and assume that people will figure it out or find the gaps that need to be filled for next time. NO ONE IS INDISDENSIBLE. You may be very valuable and knowledgeable, and you may well be appreciated, but it is still just a job. I assume you are American as this is a very American attitude about sick time, but set some healthy boundaries. You are most likely employed at will, and if you think working yourself to severe illness will build you job security, you need to wake up. Ever since the 2008 crash in the US, we have seen staff let go in the middle of big projects, people with stellar work histories and incredible knowledge. If you were hit by a bus, would you be working from your hospital bed? What is the consequence of a day or two delay in you responding to an email? If you are truly that critical, you are not being paid enough. Take a few days to get better, ignore your email entirely, and return to work fully recovered, rested and ready to go.

    22. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      I don’t know if this is formally proven yet, but there’s anecdotal evidence that pushing yourself instead of fully resting when you’re ill with covid makes it more likely you’ll get “long covid”. The short-term inconvenience to them of your absence for a day or a couple of weeks would still be less than the inconvenience to them of having to recruit for your post and teach a new person what you know. So if it is covid, you wouldn’t be doing anyone any favours by taking that risk.

    23. SofiaDeo*

      You can’t take care of anyone else, until your needs are met. If this is the US where “work above all” can dominate, please take care of yourself first. Neither your boss nor coworkers are likely to come take care of you, if you collapse. Unless someone is going to die if you don’t do your work, or there will be major repercussions lasting 10+ years out (bridge failure, international incident, post weather event cleanup affecting residents) I can’t imagine it being worth it.

  17. Free Meerkats*

    Yesterday, the Assistant Director left their office and didn’t lock the computer.

    Someone went in and sent an email to the entire department that essentially said, “I left my office and my computer isn’t locked. Please come tell me about the policy.”

    Drama has ensued…

    1. smeep248*

      when my employees would do this in a former life I would change their desktop backgrounds to a picture of Justin Bieber. I still giggle about it.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I worked somewhere that people would flip your screen upside down. We were a government contractor dealing with HIPAA information, so we always locked our screens.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      That’s not going to end well. And here I thought it was bad the time my old workplace used to change the desktop background of unlocked computers to say they need to be locked.

    5. Bread Addict*

      At my old work they used to invert our screens if we left them unlocked. Until it messed up a woman clocking back in after lunch because she couldnt flip it round.

      To be fair though, we worked with bank accounts so walking away especially with a customers account open was a huge liability issue.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Same at Exjob (tech services for banks and credit unions). You HAD to lock your screen or you’d be in big trouble. I don’t do it at home unless I go out, but it’s now a habit everywhere else.

    6. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Too bad he wasn’t forced to bring donuts or pasties for the office, which is the normal “punishment”

      1. firestarter11*

        I’m sure that’s a typo, but the 12-year-old boy in me is giggling at the boss bringing pasties to the office.

        1. PollyQ*

          Cornish pasties are a thing, though, and I sure wouldn’t mind if someone brought them into the office!

          1. All Het Up About It*

            Yes this is another case of UK English and US English having VERY different meanings. So not a typo – just a type of pastry!

    7. anonymous73*

      Wow. It’s one thing to do that to a colleague – our IT guys used to mess with our computers all the time when we did this, but to the Asst Director. Very bad idea.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Unless it was the director who did it, or a peer from another department. Still drama, but more impunity.

      2. Everything Bagel*

        I assume the assistant director is extremely embarrassed about being caught not following their policies. It’s kind of hard for him to be too angry about this, isn’t it?

        2. anonymous73*

          No it’s really not that hard to be angry. If they aren’t following the policies than they need to be spoken to, not have their computer tampered with by someone who think they’re “teaching a lesson”.

    8. Yay, I’m a Llama Again!*

      Oooh! I have no issue with the person sending the message because the policy is there for a reason and something much worse could have happened, and I see it as a safe way of making the point. But I imagine people will disagree. However, we had an incident where a trainee left their computer unlocked against policy; the trainer sent an email from it to make a point… and the trainer ended up on a disciplinary for using someone else’s computer…

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I can kind of see that. The trainer should have, you know, trained the new hire. The trainer was the one who is supposed to know better. I don’t see disciplinary action but I think the trainer’s boss could have set guidelines for the training so the trainer knew not to get creative.

    9. Admin of Sys*

      Yeah, so when I was a young IT professional, I absolutely used to be the person that would do that, or change the background, or whatever. But now – nope. 100000 times nope. Lock the machine, leave a post it not saying it had not been locked, and if it happens again, put a ticket into IT about setting up an autolock policy. Do /not/ access the unsecured machine. If the security requirement is legit, then don’t violate security by using someone’s unlocked machine. If the security requirement is bs, then let it slide. If your job is to enforce security, then don’t treat a violation like a fun party gag to tease someone about.

    11. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Unless that someone was the Director …um wow. I hope it’s a fairly small department and everyone gets a good chuckle out of it. Like others, we usually just mess with the person’s desktop — hide all their icons or change the volume on their alerts. It makes the point without involving everyone else.

      1. SyFyGeek*

        I always lock my PC, it’s habit. A colleague was always looking for a chance to change my background (standard practice on an unlocked computer) and she never could. One afternoon when I came back from lunch, she was hanging around, and kept giggling. I typed in my password and got back to work and her face just fell.

        Turns out she had popped some of the letters off my keyboard and moved them around. She thought I would type the letters in their new places and cause my PC to lock me out. Never occurred to her that I didn’t look at the keyboard when I typed…

        1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          lol. I would notice the letters were mis-arranged but it wouldn’t stop me from knowing which keys they were supposed to be. Back in the good old days before Apple changed their OS and ruined all the fun, we’d add custom sound effects to the system alerts. My boss was particularly fond of Homer Simpson’s voice going “DOH!” for error alerts.

        2. Agile Phalanges*

          I had to pop some keys off to clean my keyboard once, and put most of them back correctly but couldn’t remember which order the M and N go in, so put them in alphabetical order. I’ve been touch-typing since high school, so didn’t bother me a bit, but anytime anyone else sat at my computer, it drove them nuts. Ha!

    12. fhqwhgads*

      …or IT could have a group policy that auto-locks it after 5 min idle. Or maybe that’s already in play and this happened before the auto-lock could kick in?

  18. tegdirb*

    Should I reach out about an internal position that may have been filled? There was a job opening in my company that I just learned about. It looks like it has been filled (there is an offer letter out) and given how vaguely the position was written, I’m not sure if I would have had the qualifications for it anyway – I doubt it as my experience in that role would probably be at the junior level and they would be looking for associate level.

    Would it make sense to reach out to the hiring manager or internal recruiter just to inquire about it and tell them I just want to make sure I am ready the next time there is an opening?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I think it’s a good idea to reach out to the hiring manager and say something along the lines of “I just noticed this posting and it looks like the position is filled, but I wanted to let you know I’d be interested if a similar role were open in the future.”

    2. Box of Kittens*

      Seconding the yes, reach out. I don’t know how it is everywhere, but at my company we are seeing a trend of candidates ghosting/backing out after offers have been accepted. Not saying that will happen here obviously, but it’s definitely not going to hurt to express interest for this or future positions like it.

    3. Hotdog not dog*

      Yes!!!
      Once upon a time when I was a manager, I had just extended an offer to someone else when an employee from another department said exactly that- they realized it was late, but they would be interested next time. Well, next time ended up being about 60 days later, as the new hire didn’t work out. The “almost missed” person was perfect for the role and held it for a few years before being promoted on. Had he not said anything to me I wouldn’t have guessed he was interested.

  19. Self-censoring my references*

    I’m a woman in my early 50’s who looks about 10 years younger (flashback to being carded for lottery tickets at 28 when friends told me someday I’d appreciate looking younger than I actually am). I’ve noticed that I censor myself when talking about pop culture and historical references with others. An example – someone asked me about the Celtics recently being in the NBA championship and I stopped myself from talking about how different the reaction in Boston was this year to back in the 80’s when it seemed like they were in it every year. I didn’t want them to know I was in high school during the 80’s. Or I don’t mention I watched LiveAid.

    I work with a lot of people who are at least 20 years younger than me. As a woman in a technology related field I’ve dealt with a lot of sexism, mostly early in my career but it still happens now and then. And now I’m trying to avoid ageism I guess. Does anyone else do this? How do you deal with being a lot older than colleagues?

    1. Heather*

      I’m only 40 but I’m a nurse and I work with a lot of 22 year olds. I definitely censor myself (they don’t need to hear my “Friends” references) and I also studiously try to avoid references to anything current. IE, I’m not going to mention “TikTok trends” or anything. I don’t know that it’s a bad thing to try to get age out of the equation. I stick to neutral topics– and there are a ton of those, so you can definitely be friendly and have a lot of chit-chat without bringing up LiveAid.

      1. Pass the Just For Men*

        I’m shocked by how popular Friends are with the early-20’s folks. I’ve heard my staff reference “PIVOT” and they all laugh. It’s a total crapshoot. :)

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          Just need to point out that when the series started, the characters were all older than me. By the time it ended, they were all younger than me. So, I guess they were promoting an ageist philosophy.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              Except he’s a cartoon character & therefore ageless. Having actual actors not age at a rate based on the passage of time (the show was supposed to be taking place in the years it was being filmed, not like Downton Abbey) means that the only way you can have internal continuity is if the characters were in some sort of time warp. In which case, I guess it was SF. Or the writers were ageist & not that good.

        2. AGD*

          This. I am mid-thirties and work with undergrads. Many of my older colleagues AND my twentyish students get the Friends references; I do not.

          1. Shhhh*

            Right? I was a bit too young for Friends the first time around and a bit too old for whatever renaissance it’s had with the current undergrad-aged folks (31 here). It’s not like I don’t know anything about it but I don’t always recognize references.

        3. Never Nicky*

          I’m 53 and look a lot younger. In lockdown I grew out my hair and it’s now a steely grey with white streaks and still people don’t think I’m the age I am.
          For the last 25 years, I’ve been at least a decade older than my managers and it’s never been a problem.
          I use the element of surprise. And I own my age. And my experiences. I don’t do the whole “oh it was different in my day” thing, though. I focus on the positive and progress, and that helps. And being older, I do tend to see the bigger picture, and I have less figs to give and people respect and appreciate that.

      2. JayRi*

        I am 44 and often d0 the same thing, especially around younger colleagues. And other times it’s something to joke/tease about.

    2. Pass the Just For Men*

      Hello. If it matters, I’m a man, and as I hit my mid-40’s, I’ve become a lot more aware of ageism for both genders. At my last role, I colored my hair regularly and only after a year, did I lessen the frequency somewhat to slowly-but-surely go to my natural 50/50 gray/brown.

      The pop culture stuff is my achilles heel though. I know 90’s stuff (when I was a teen) is a giveaway despite a lot of that coming back a little bit, but I made a reference to a very popular movie from the late 2000’s (Mean Girls) while we were making Candy Grams, and literally none of my early-mid 20’s staffers got the reference. Just blank stares and crickets.

    3. londonedit*

      I’m 40 and I don’t worry too much about ageism/sexism in my industry (there are plenty of 40+ women in senior positions where I work) but I do self-censor with younger colleagues just so I don’t become that annoying woman going ‘Oh my GAAAAAWD you’re all so YOUNG, I was LEAVING SCHOOL when you were BORN, how is that even POSSIBLE’. Because that’s got to be really irritating when you’re in your twenties and trying to be a professional person in a professional job. Of course I do joke sometimes about being old enough to remember ’90s fashion the first time round but I try to limit that and not make a big deal of any age differences.

    4. WellRed*

      I did it when I was about 35, mistaken for 25. I’d catch myself editing my pop culture references.

    5. Asenath*

      Always avoid references to pop culture and any event which is likely to get a blank look and “I wasn’t born then” in response. Keep all conversations on work or current trivia. I would make a special effort to listen to their advice on work issues because I know I tend to want to offer them mine, which can come across as me being kind of stuck-in-the-mud. And if I do, because of my long years on the job, have knowledge they don’t, I try to provide it tactfully.

      1. Lady_Lessa*

        I was once surprised that two of my younger co-workers had never heard of the song, “if I had a hammer”

      2. pancakes*

        I don’t think such strictness is necessary. It isn’t that shameful for people to not know about pop culture from the years before they were born, or to not know about current culture for that matter. It also isn’t that shameful for older people to know about things the younger ones don’t. Knowing tidbits about Top of the Pops or having seen an 80s blockbuster in a theater or whatnot isn’t a mark of superiority, it’s just a marker of living in a slightly different time frame.

    6. anonymous73*

      I honestly just don’t worry about it. I’m close to 50 and have worked with people much younger than me in the past and now the present. And the older I get, the less I care what other people think. If someone treats me poorly because of my age, I’ll speak up. I don’t know that there’s a magic formula to stop caring, but it’s better than having to edit your self every time you speak because you’ll worry everyone will think you’re a dinosaur.

    7. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      Man, I wish I could censor myself better! I think you’re right to do that, frankly. Not lie, but also not volunteer things that directly age you. I also look younger than I am, my field is very young, I am older than damn near everyone around me, and ageism is a problem. It would benefit me not to draw attention to my age, and yet I do not know how to shut up and stop stepping in it.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Don’t you automatically curate your conversation to the other people involved, just for the sake of good communication? References are supposed to add nuance to the conversation or create a bond. If the other person doesn’t get it, there’s no point to making a reference anyway.

      It’s enough work trying to explain things to my kids. I don’t have the energy to bog down work conversations with opaque references that I then have to explain. It’s not worth the trouble.

      I guess if other people were already talking about something like LiveAid or the Challenger explosion, I might say I remember it. They know I’m older than them, even if they don’t know exactly.

      But I’m an individual contributor in a field where long-term experience is valued and there really isn’t much trendy or fast-changing standards to keep up with. I spend more time dealing with clients than coworkers, and the clients are often closer to my age. So I don’t worry about actively trying to conceal my age.

      1. Anyfizz*

        Yeah, this is where I land. I look super young, but I’m also not well-versed in general pop-culture from any generation. If I’m making a reference, it’s usually to industry-gossip or about a shared hobby.

    9. Fig*

      I’m 43 and like literally everyone who guesses my age says 32. My vanity loves it lol. But anyway, I totally talk about things that date me. I’ve lived a crazy life and have the stories to show for it, which I freely share as a bit of fun one-upsmanship with younger coworkers and friends. Obviously, I try not to cross any boundaries, but I’ve never had an issue with it. I wouldn’t overthink it, just trust your gut about how it whatever you say will be received.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Ditto! Have fun with it. LOL. There was a younger guy in my office who didn’t know who Captain James T Kirk was. Imagine that

    10. Elizabeth West*

      Older Gen X and I do it, yeah. I keep my hair colored because ageism in hiring is a real thing.

      AFA working with younger people, I don’t care as long as they can do their work so I don’t have to. Younger bosses are fine too; I’m used to skating coaches who could be my kids telling me what to do. My interests tend to align with current pop culture, particularly geek stuff, so I understand most references [insert Cap gif here, lol]. If I just be myself, it’s usually fine since we can find common ground on most things.

    11. Anon for This*

      I censor myself with people I don’t know, or don’t know well. But when I am with people who know me/my work it’s less of an issue. Just try to keep current so you know what your younger peers are talking about. My kids have kept me up on current slang, TikToks, etc., (which helps!) and I keep an eye out for news articles or summaries of popular tweets so I often have an idea of what they are talking about.

    12. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

      Oh how I get this. I watched the moon landing on a black-and-white TV. I was 4. I let my hair go gray but I’m fit and have a lot of energy. I get a weird split of people thinking I’m 10-15 years younger than I am, and people thinking I’m 10-15 years older. I’ve hit some indeterminate place, which I’m trying to make work for me. But yeah, there’s a real bias and it comes in unexpected ways. I steer very clear of any maternal advice and pop culture refs. I had an sports injury a few months ago and made the mistake of complaining about the pain. I got “aging ain’t for sissies” from one colleague who thought she was being kind. OUch.

    13. Curmudgeon in California*

      I’m 61, but I look like I’m 40, just starting to go grey. I work in tech, which has racism, sexism and ageism all rolled into one. I avoid both current and past pop-culture references, because I wasn’t plugged in to it then (I never watched Friends or other sitcoms like it, not did I watch reality TV) and certainly am not now. OTOH, where I work now is ripe with SF&F and related movie references – so Star Wars, Dr Strange, etc are very common references. This fills my geek heart with joy. Sure, some of them are sports fans too, but nobody’s perfect ;-)

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        Totally this. Pushing 60, keep my hair colored, plus I look younger than I am. I’ve been the oldest or one of the oldest in my company for the past three or four jobs now. I just keep the topics on things that are current and leave it at that. Or just ask whomever I’m speaking with questions about what they’re doing/what they think about something/etc.
        On the plus side, it FINALLY seems that in finance, at least, having a 25 year old senior finance executive is now considered not the best idea anymore. lol

    14. Living That Teacher Life*

      I’m in my fifties, and I love being the older, more experienced teacher that I looked up to for so many years! I try to mentor and encourage younger teachers. Many people are surprised to find out my age, or that I have grandchildren, but I don’t try to hide it! I did have one experience with an ageist principal who always favored the young, new teachers. Once he found out I was the same age as him, he had no more respect for me (even though he should have had more). He later lost his job for inappropriate interactions with young teachers, so . . .

    15. Despachito*

      I do not see anything wrong about references in general.

      Don’t we frequently talk about important milestones from the past irrespective of our age – you do not need to presonally remember the landing on the Moon to be able to talk about it, and I can perfectly see a 70-years-old and a 15-years old doing so (with the older person being able to offer an interesting point of view if they remember it personally). And there are whole generations of Beatles lovers, for example.

      I think the problem lies somewhere else – in reading the room and adjusting accordingly. We all (ideally) adjust what we are saying to our listeners. And if we don’t, we will bore them stiff, or even offend them. But this is not just a matter of age, but of country, location, interests… References are a sort of “wink-wink, we have this in common and we both know what this is about”, but if one of us doesn’t, they lose the point and become just annoying empty blabber.

      I’d also avoid praising “goode olde times” and posing like a person who is much wiser because of their age, because this is annoying like hell. I am over 50 and absolutely do not feel like a wise person who understands everything, and there is always something interesting to be learned even from people much younger than me..

      I also do not see why I should not mention things from the current culture I like – actually, there are many new songs by young singers I love and prefer them to the old classics.

      I think the issue is not WHAT you say but HOW you say it

    16. Rara Avis*

      I accidentally revealed my age while talking to a (much) younger colleague about booster shots. I said I had just gotten my second and she said she should see about getting hers — I reminded her that you have to be 50, which I am, barely. I had mr kid pretty late so she didn’t realize I was that old. I work with a wide range of ages (and my incoming students were born on 2011) so age isn’t a huge deal — we’ve had student vs. teacher trivia contests where they were asked questions about the old times and we were asked questions about current pop culture. (They won, but we still took credit — for teaching them history well.)

    17. Product Person*

      Are you me? :-) I’m almost in the same situation (except that past 55 already), and know that people think I’m much younger because some colleagues have asked if I want to have kids some day (they know I’m married and child-free).

      I totally avoid giving away my age for fear they’ll think I’m obsolete!

      Which is kind of silly since almost every week a colleague reaches out to get my advice or ask for mentoring because one day they want to be able to do what I do. I think I still have trauma from a decade ago when some colleagues were joking about our CEO being too old after he used Madonna as an example of artist 20-somethings listen to (he was 45, as was I, only my peers didn’t know). :-/

    18. allathian*

      Now that I’ve let myself go gray I look my age (50). If I dyed my hair, I’d probably look younger, because I have very youthful-looking skin, but I’m not particularly interested in that. I’m happy in my current job, and because I work for the government, the job security, as long as I don’t do anything criminal, is good (without cause, they can’t lay me off unless they eliminate my position completely). I still got carded when I went out for drinks when I was 26 (drinking age 18). Now it’s no big deal because they’re supposed to card everyone who looks younger than 30.

      My team has people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s (our jobs require a Master’s degree, which is why only our interns are likely to be younger than 24). We celebrate people’s birthdays, and I don’t think anyone’s opted out of that, but it also follows that we know our coworkers’ ages. Because we respect each other professionally regardless of age in a way that’s obvious to everyone, we can joke about generational differences and cultural references without anyone taking offence.

    19. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      Wow, reading the replies here makes me glad I never worked in whatever fields all of you are in. Everywhere I worked, we had a wide range of ages and we enjoyed swapping cultural reference stories across the generations. Maybe working in the humanities really is more humane.

    20. Class of ‘82*

      I try to keep my age a secret at work, since I’m closer to my co-workers’ parents’ ages than theirs! My worry these days is that my 40th high school reunion is coming up, and there are a bunch of postings on Facebook and I am Facebook friends with a few of my coworkers, and I just hope they don’t notice that I graduated HS before they were even born!

  20. Is it just me?*

    Anyone else feel like the job-hunt trends change with the seasons? For example, just about 2 years ago when I was laid off last time, I used to get a surprising amount of responses to LinkedIn easy applies, but I am not seeing the same kind of response, and was wondering if anyone else is noticing the same. It’s odd, because now it seems virtually every job posting on LinkedIn is an easy apply.

    Actually, I’m not seeing the same level of response I was seeing last time in general and was curious if anyone else is noticing that. Not sure if there is an influx of candidates from the “Great Resignation”, more layoffs are happening in other sectors than tech and financial services, or if it’s because I’m going for manager level roles that I wasn’t going for before because my last job was leading a department.

    I’m also noticing employers sitting longer on applications. Just two years ago, I typically heard within the week (if I applied Mon-Wed), but most of my applications haven’t been reviewed at all after 2+ weeks and I’m noticing that Indeed reports that many of the companies I’ve applied to take weeks to review. What’s up with that?

    I’m already tailoring my coverletter to the job and using my “achievement bank” to highlight stuff that is relevant to the role. I’m not yet customizing my resume for every application (just the ones I REALLY want) as that would be incredibly time consuming and since easy applies seem to be the nature of the beast now, it doesn’t seem relevant to tailor my resume since most of the time, one is not easily given the choice.

    1. Emily Dickinson*

      I’ve been going to the company websites and applying there instead. Would you recommend Easy Apply over that for any particular reason?

    2. eBench*

      LinkedIn easy apps are the WORST. Forget them and apply directly through the employer’s website. I just did some screening for a position and the quality of the LI candidates was pure shite. 90% unqualified – 50% of those in entirely different fields just applying because of a single shared job title keyword. The interface also sucks. Don’t get lost in a pool of a couple hundred crappy easy apps!

      1. eBench*

        For clarification – The interface also sucks so I’m going to minimize the amount of time I spend there.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I think HR departments have been hit by the Great Resignation and it’s just taking forever to hire these days due to a lack of HR personnel. At least that’s my observation at my org. Our HR department melted down (lost 6 people), so the HR department is first onboarding their own new people and then triaging hiring for the most important positions first.

    4. Emily Dickinson*

      Also, I am not in a rush with my job search AT ALL, so I’m not minding if people take awhile to get back to me.

  21. JumpAround*

    How do I take a step back from management in my next job? And do I even want to?

    I started work with my company about 5 years ago in an entry level professional position. We had a large team but we lost more than half of it within my first year. Then my manager left when I’d been there a little more than a year, leaving the most senior person on my team someone who had been there only about 3 months more than me. In hind sight this should have been taken as a heaping pile of red flags, but at the time each person who left seemed to have a logical and not concerning reason for leaving (closer to family, switched departments, got an offer in their dream industry, etc.). Those of us remaining were all encouraged to apply for the manager job, and I ended up getting it.

    I now have about 4 years of management experience under my belt and I’m looking at moving on from my current company, but I don’t know if I want to continue in management, and how to execute what feels like a step backwards. On the one hand there are aspects of management I really like, mentoring new people in my field and getting a certain amount of input into higher level decisions. On the other hand there are aspects I hate, a certain lack of work life balance and missing out on some of the work socializing because I don’t want to crowd my direct reports, etc. I’m pretty young to have my position and sometimes I feel like I’m treated like a kid at the adults table. I also don’t know if I’m actually a good manager because the way my company operates seems to be outside the norm in a lot of ways so some of the autonomy that other mangers might have I don’t.

    How hard is it to transition from management to individual contributor? Is it harder to get an interview for a lower level position? If anyone has made the switch have they had difficulty with it in terms of taking a step back and giving up control?

    1. RoseMai*

      This is likely industry specific, but where I am we have plenty of manager level people who don’t actually have direct reports! Manager refers more to your level of knowledge than whether or not you have anyone reporting in to you (though often the two coincide).

      Regardless though, if you want an individual contributor role, go get one. Make sure that it’s a role that you’ll find interesting, and then tell them why you find it interesting. Maybe something like- I’ve enjoyed learning the ins and outs of managing a team, but now I’m looking to get more depth of knowledge in x, y, z areas. Or whatever reasoning applies for you!

      It helps if you can leverage your network to get a referral for a job you’re interested in. But use your cover letter to explain what interests you about the position, why you’re looking to make this change, and hopefully that’ll quell any doubts they might have.

    2. PinkCandyfloss*

      I hated managing and love being an individual contributor. I had an open conversation with my boss about it when discussing my short and long term development plans. I *can* manage people. I just don’t *like* managing people. I got praise and high marks and bonuses as a people manager yet I hated every minute of it, and I told my manager that I just am not cut out for management in the long term.

      Individual contributors are the heartbeat of any company. They get things done! They move business forward! I am proud to be a high level IC and have no qualms about continuing this way until I retire. Am I taking a cut in pay? Yes. Am I sacrificing that pay for peace of mind and much better quality of life? ALSO YES

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I did not mind supervising people. I thought they were interesting and they did great work.

      I did mind being the “kick me” person for all that went wrong. And it bothered me that I had to solve the “world’s” problems. I ended up fixing what others couldn’t or more realistically wouldn’t bother fixing.

      I think it matters where you manage and how managers are treated.

      I changed arenas so starting near the bottom was just part of changing arenas. I actually make more per hour than before. I had no problem stepping back because I was no longer in my element.

      I think that kid-at-the-adults’-table feeling wears many different costumes. It can look like feeling stupid one day. Or it can look like discovering your boss is gaslighting you. Be careful of attributing poor behavior on their part to your age. An incorrect attribution can lead us to the wrong conclusions such as “I can’t manage people” or “I can’t do the work in this arena.” , when the real answer is “I have a toxic workplace.”

      This doesn’t fix the work-life balance and socialization aspects of your concerns here.

      I think you could think about your goals in life. Where do you want to be in five years? Let’s say you blurt right out, “I want to buy a house.” Good, that’s a decent sized goal. Working backwards from 5 years out to present time, what will it take for you to get there?
      I believe that the bottom line with most jobs is to have personal goals and keep working toward your personal goals or else there is just no point to working hard at work.
      Probably not the answer you wanted to hear? Without personal goals jobs are nothing but a hamster wheel that we jump on every morning and crawl off of every night. Getting closer to my personal goals has helped me to stay on track with my work.
      It sounds like your place could be toxic. It might be that just getting into a healthy environment is all you need. That, and a pool of friends who are not related to your job, maybe.

      1. JumpAround*

        It’s stunning how well you’ve summed it up! I’m sick of feeling like everything is on me because I have the word “manager” in my title, and I’ve definitely been feeling a little (extremely) ambivalent and I hate it. I don’t like not caring.

        I think for right now my main goal is to get to a mental place where I feel healthier and then let other goals follow. It feels weird to say but I’m definitely entering the phase of my life where my goals are morphing and some of what I wanted 5 years ago just isn’t appealing anymore.

        1. Cordelia*

          I felt exactly the same and made the move (it was sideways, not up or down in my case) away from management back to being an individual contributor, but in a more specialist part of the organisation. Absolutely the right decision for me, and what you say about your goals in life changing was my reason too. I am still learning and developing, as I am becoming increasingly specialist and skilled in my new area. I am lucky to work in a team where everyone’s voice is heard, so I still get a say on decisions and changes in the team. I get to support junior members of staff and help them develop, without being responsible for the less pleasant parts of people management. And I get to do the work I came into the field to do.
          Maybe think about how you feel about the work you are actually doing, aside from the management responsibilities – do you enjoy that? is there something adjacent you can do, or a part of the role you can develop? It doesn’t have to be “Stepping down” to a lower level, can you go sideways?

    4. SofiaDeo*

      I moved more into “consultant type” work when I realized this. Some of the jobs required extensive travel which I enjoyed at the time. My final job had me traveling in-state only, which I enjoyed. I often filled in for sick leave, pregnancy coverage, vacation coverage so got to do some “individual contributor” stuff while conferring with regional management how a particular facility was operating, following P&P, etc.

  22. Environmental Compliance*

    On a scale of 1-10, how annoyed should I be that somehow someone dropped my title down a couple levels in the email system and it hasn’t been fixed for 3 weeks+?

    I know it’s incorrect, and I’ve let both HR & IT know, but HR tells me it’s an IT glitch, and IT is saying they need an HR ticket to fix it. I’m just annoyed because I already have enough (older male) engineers try to give me crap because they have “senior” in their title (I don’t care – you need to follow the approval process regardless of how high up you are).

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Be annoyed at level 6 for HR/IT incompetence. Be annoyed at level 10 for your sexist coworkers.

    2. WellRed*

      If you haven’t already, I’m a fan of emailing all guilty parties outlining the pushback from both sides and asking how to get it resolved immediately. Feel free to include relevant supervisors in both their depts and possibly yours.

      1. Mints*

        I would do this too. I would outline what was asked then ask who can do it “IT said HR needs to submit a ticket. Are you the right person to submit the ticket? If not, can you let me know who can?”

        Then follow up every other day, very nicely. “Checking in on this – is it still in the queue? Thanks so much!”

        1. WellRed*

          To be clear I think HR and IT need to be included on one email. Let them figure it out or explain what needs to happen.

    3. WomEngineer*

      I’d be super annoyed and would escalate it (give 4-5 work days for a response before going to a higher level).

      Make sure your paycheck is what it should be!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I had a boss introduce me to the concept of “being a nice nuisance”. This is where a person is pleasant, conversational and very relatable. BUT. They never stop asking. They ask every day or every other day.

        I use it a lot because I don’t like confrontational anger or even stern talk. But there is also that part of me that says, “If something is wrong let’s fix it.” Being a nice nuisance seems to appease both parts of me. I don’t think I have angered too many people because most times they will say, “You’re right. This should be fixed. Let me see what I can try today.”

        It’s helpful to have a rep for being a person to jump right on things when asked. When my turn comes that I am the asker, people may stop and think, “Gee, NSNR gets right on stuff when I ask.”

    5. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Do you have the name of an IT Manager and an HR Manager? Send an email to both (maybe cc your manager). Outline the situation and tell them you need it corrected ASAP and ask how does this get done. (you may want to throw in that this error is causing issues)

    6. River Otter*

      I’d be at about a +1,000,000.

      Time to call a meeting with both HR and IT and don’t let it end until they have agreed what each of them is going to do. Might take some time to figure out who exactly in HR and IT to invite.

    7. Environmental Compliance*

      Okay, glad my annoyance wasn’t supremely off base. I looped in my boss – he’s escalating to a couple levels up as it seems someone touched things they weren’t supposed to… and he’s not happy. At all.

      And yes, the two people who would make this a I’m More Senior Than You are jerks and are already on HR notice. IT guy was correct – he cannot just fix. But HR was out of line.

      I just felt stupid escalating it and wanted a sanity check.

  23. Emily Dickinson*

    I’m applying for a job at a company a friend works at. We have no professional connection, but my spouse says I should ask them to refer me. I disagree. Who is correct?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Ask you friend if they’d feel comfortable referring you.

      I’ve referred personal contacts before, you just make sure to mention you don’t know them in a professional setting but you know they work in that field and are a reliable etc person. Sometimes a nudge is all it takes to get your resume in a better light. Also a lot of places are offering referral bonuses right now could benefit both of you!

      1. Should I Apply? needs a new name*

        Second this advice, I have definitely asked friends if they would be willing to refer me before.

      2. Bread Addict*

        This.

        I recently referred someone I have never worked with. She has good experience. And a good attitude. My work likes to hire people for the fit personality wise and doesnt mind investing in new people. I think she would get along great so I referred her. I did make it clear I hadnt worked with her. Ask if your friend is comfortable referring you. No pressure.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yep. Offer them an easy out. “I know you are not really familiar with my work, so I understand if you say no. I am not sure how I would answer people myself. So it’s whatever you feel you can do here.”

          This gives them the opportunity to say, that it’s a different department or that they don’t feel they would be heard or maybe even blurt out, “Oh that boss is so toxic!!”.
          Offer an easy out in your request and see what they say.

    2. mreasy*

      I have had folks ask me for this before, and generally I say, “my good friend X applied for Y position. We’ve never worked together professionally, but I will say she is a super positive and hard-working person from what I know” (or whatever good thing about your friend you’d like to add). Depending on the role, that might be enough to get them on the top of the pile.

    3. Purple Penguin*

      “Who’s correct” depends on context – ideally you’re not asking them for a referral, you’re asking them what the context is and whether a referral would make sense.
      You should tell your friend that you’re applying and ask what the company is like to work for and if there’s anything they know about the group that’s hiring – that’s helpful to you regardless! And in that conversation I’d also say “I don’t know if they do referral bonuses, but if so I’d be happy for you to refer me” – that opens the door framing it as a mutual favor, and you can then have the conversation evolve from there, acknowledge you’ve never worked together, see if they know the hiring manager, etc. Or if in conversation it comes out that they don’t know anybody in that division and wouldn’t have a particular person to go to and don’t know the HR referral policy, then don’t push it. If spouse was saying you should get a referral any time you know someone who works there, they’re not right. If you’re saying you shouldn’t mention to your friend about your application, you’re not right. It’s a conversation worth starting, but not expecting how it’ll end up.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I would ask your friend whether she would feel comfortbale referring you. I think whether or not it is appropriate is very dependent on context – if you say to her that you understand that it may not be appropraite as you haven’t worked together but obviously don’t know their internal policies then you leve her an easy out of she doesn’t want to or feels it woon’t work in that company, and also lets her dsay yes if it is appropriate / could result in a referral bonus if you are hired.

    5. danmei kid*

      Your friend may qualify for a referral bonus if you are hired. I have referred acquaintances in the past and am happy to profit from their interest in using me as a connection lol

    6. kat*

      Does your friend get a referral bonus if you are hired and stay at least 6 months?
      It’s about $2000 at the health system where I work.
      Your friend don’t even have to say anything positive/negative about you. You just put it on your application that they referred you. Depending on your actual relationship- some people split go halvsies on the money.

    7. rosyglasses*

      I usually recommend it. At our company, if you are referred by a current team member you automatically get a phone screening because we know that folks are more likely to refer people they would want to work with and think would do a good job. We don’t ask folks to tell us how they know them; so it does work in an applicant’s benefit.

  24. Puffle*

    Happy Friday!

    Job hunting question for you all, in your experience how long do you normally have to wait between receiving an offer and actually getting the written contract for private sector jobs?

    (For reference I am in the UK, where just about all jobs including retail etc come with employment contracts and the norm is you don’t hand in your notice until new contract is signed)

    1. londonedit*

      Not very long in my experience, usually within a week. The way it works in my industry is usually that the hiring manager will offer you the job and you’ll agree terms with them, then when you accept you’ll get an email from HR with all the joining details, confirmation of your first day and all the stuff you’ll need to print and sign to bring with you on your first day (or send back beforehand if that’s how they do it). But I’ve never worked for anywhere hugely corporate with loads of bureaucracy – this has all been in small/medium-sized publishing companies, and publishing tends to be quite old-school about everything, rather than a huge finance company or something.

    2. Bagpuss*

      Not long, but it can depend on referncing. My experience is that the offer will normally be subject to references, the referneces checked once you accept, then the contract issued once the references are available, so if your referees are slow to respond that could hold up the contract.

  25. Heather*

    I’ve been doing a summer internship/clinical rotation at a medical clinic that has been a complete organizational nightmare. The only beacons of hope have been the front desk staff. There are somewhere between 3 and 5 (the number is nebulous because they don’t all work every day; there area a couple of different front desks and they rotate; and people sometimes get pulled from other areas to work there). They’ve been so helpful and patient when I have to keep asking them whether Doctor So and So is actually at work today and whether he’s with a patient right now. At the end of the summer I want to give them something. I know people often bring in food. I don’t love the idea of donuts/chocolate because we’re a medical clinic, and something healthier may not actually be wanted. Do you have any non-food ideas that can be shared among a small group of people?

      2. mreasy*

        I love to do a local roasted coffee and some craft chocolate (remember how dark chocolate is good for you??) for these types of things and usually get great responses.

    2. Sandwiches*

      A small basket of mini hand cream tubes/lip balms/hand sanitizer bottles/mints? Or if there’s an office supply that the clinic doesn’t pay for but they really like, like funky post-its or good pens?

    3. Radical Edward*

      What about a selection of quirky/humorous sticky notes? Those have always gone over well with my colleagues, no matter the work setting. (My current favorite notepad is from ShanaLogic and has an angry possum at the top, with the text ‘DO NOT WANT to do list’ – but there are so many to choose from!)

    4. Golden*

      Magnets were randomly popular at my workplace (we all have small metal cabinets below the desks though, not sure if your coworkers have their own places to put them).

      I also like Neosmom’s tea suggestion, it’s like a sweet spot of consumable/not clutter that they could enjoy at work or bring home for later, or easily give to someone else if it’s not their thing.

    5. Bagpuss*

      Maybe also a note or card saying how much you have appreciated their help and patience – I suspect that specifc thanks to the front desk staff are a lot rarer than ones to the Doctors ,(although obviously send one to whoever whoever you were working with on that side ofthings as well) and will probably be very much appreciated.

    6. SofiaDeo*

      I brought in a lunch catered by Whole Foods, with the Buffalo Mozzarella Caprese Salad being the biggest hit. Instead of pizza or premade sandwiches. Salads, a soup, and only a small amount of sandwich fixin’s for those who wanted a sandwich instead of putting meat/cheeses on a salad.

  26. Sandwiches*

    Welcoming any general and specific advice you have about training new hires. I don’t have a lot of experience training, and I’m sharing training duties with my colleagues who haven’t really put together a set plan. We’re even more understaffed than expected, so I’ll be training on top of having a higher workload than usual. Our new hire doesn’t really have relevant experience (I don’t think he’s ever worked in an office before) so I feel like he’ll have a bit of an adjustment period getting used to using Outlook, Excel, and all our other software efficiently. I also don’t know for sure but think he might be neurodivergent, so I want to make sure I can train him in a way that works for his learning style.
    This is all a little more overwhelming than I expected, so any advice you have would probably help me a lot.

    1. Xaraja*

      I’ve trained a lot of new hires, usually ad hoc, and the biggest thing I’ve learned is that 100% of everyone I’ve ever worked with learns by doing the thing. There’s so many debates about learning styles and stuff and at least for OTJ training, I’ve never run across anyone who learned without doing it for themselves. You do want to show them at first so they can see the overall idea, but then you want to put them at the computer or work station or whatever the job is and have them do it. You also want to let them try to remember the steps on their own. At first you walk them through it and then you gradually prompt them less, and go ahead and let them struggle a little to remember. If they ask for the answer, that’s fine, but don’t be too quick to just tell them the next step in the process they are trying to remember. Something about having to try to remember the next step (or look it up in notes) solidifies it in the mind.

      Specifically for Excel, I would model looking up how to do something online because that’s a wonderful resource that too many people don’t realize is available.

      And regarding neurodiversity, I would say just ask (without mentioning anything about neurodiversity) how they learn best, and maybe all some probing questions like “do you tend to take a lot of notes? Would it help if we printed out some of things we talk about? Are you comfortable sitting with me at my desk and watching me work, and then switching places and trying it yourself?” Whatever questions are appropriate or needed to get the conversation flowing.

    2. Elle*

      I would talk to him about how he learns best. You’ll also want to share a training checklist with him so everyone is clear on what tasks he needs to be trained on and mark when training was complete.

    3. Parakeet*

      Most popular software has a bunch of basic-skills tutorials online. It might be helpful to find a few good tutorials for Outlook, Excel, etc, and have him work through them.

      If it’s a job that lends itself to this, shadowing can be really useful. And even if you’re all working remotely, it’s possible – a trainee can shadow you through Zoom/Teams or a conference call while you make calls, or through screenshare as you write emails or other documents. After he’s shadowed a few times, you could potentially switch it to you shadowing him while he does the tasks (or even doing a few roleplays).

      I’m autistic + ADHD – there are several kinds of neurodivergence so I think specificity is useful here – and my first thought about that is to make sure that your instructions and feedback are clear and not leaving him to have to read between the lines too much. But even within various neurodivergent communities people have a lot of different needs (there’s one particular common stereotype about autistic communication that REALLY doesn’t work well for me, even though I am autistic).

    4. Gracely*

      If you’re teaching any kinds of processes/procedures that you do on a computer, taking screenshots of every single step and putting them together can be really helpful (and double as a how-to guide for anyone who might do the job later). My first boss did that with me, and it was so, so helpful. I do that when I train new people now, and while the front end work is a bit more than I like, it cuts back on the time I have to put in afterwards.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Have him put his hands into the work as soon as possible. Don’t do the work and make him watch. I have trained a lot of people with and without disabilities. Consistently the folks who put their hands into the work early on were the ones who made out the best.
      It’s fine to do one example, then let him do several examples.

      If you write out directions for people, either actually do the thing according to what you wrote OR pretend to do it using your instructions. It’s so easy to skip steps or little details.

      The number one thing that concerned me with any job is where are the limits of my authority? What decisions come under my watch and what decisions need to be referred up or over. These limits helped me to understand my job better.

      Be very clear about what is forbidden. It’s sooo much easier to tell people the rules BEFORE they make that mistake, rather than after. And people appreciate being told. “You don’t let me embarrass myself.”, I was told.

      If you give him the wrong guidance, apologize and shoulder it. “I am sorry, I told you to do x when I should I have told you to do y. It’s my fault not yours.”

      In short be fair. There are so many different ways of showing fairness that it would be too long here and still not be comprehensive. Look at everything through the lens of “what is fair here?”. If most people can do task ABC by the end of their first week, then it sounds reasonably fair to expect him to learn Task ABC in a similar time frame. If he hasn’t gotten it down pat, then sit down and find out what pieces he is missing. Usually this meant I forgot to mention something or they were having a problem I had never seen before. We’d figure it out and things got better fast.

    6. Mac*

      As much as possible, let something sink in and then go back to reinforce it multiple times within the same day. So for example, if you start with teaching how to use email, then go on to excel, the next thing to do would be to get him to open that email again and figure out how to send the excel file as an attachment.

      I also employ a strategy where if it’s computer-based, I, the trainer, literally NEVER put my hands on the mouse or keyboard. The person getting trained should be getting that muscle memory right from the start, and if they’re controlling the pace of each step, they are less likely to miss something because you, the trainer, having done the thing a million times, just go click-clickety-click, and bam, suddenly something happened. Just be patient and verbally describe what you want them to click or type. It can be hard sometimes, but grit your teeth and sit on your hands.

      1. Nightengale*

        And this is how I barely learned to use an EHR, because they sat there and coached me through doing it, so I couldn’t stop and take notes, and I won’t remember what I am doing while I am busy doing it. Of course I don’t learn well by watching either, what I really need are written step by step notes. If the trainer isn’t going to provide me a user manual, which they never do anymore, second best is their doing something and narrate it verbally, while I type detailed notes to myself. I’ve got an unusual version of neurodivergence where I learn best by the written word, and hardly at all from pictures, diagrams, screen shots, demonstrations or videos. I miss user manuals. . .

    7. SofiaDeo*

      There was a big movement in my profession a few decades ago, to teach/train people how to *logically find out where to research answers*, instead of rote memorization. So if he needs some basic software skills, a review course (or at least a test/discussion of skillset) might be in order. Thus, if he needed to figure out an Excel manipulation, he needs to learn how to search where “how to do this” for Excel is located. Instead of rote memorization. And FWIW, if you have a need for step by step work training, having that person write a “training manual” can help. I had one boss do this with me while I was in college work-study; the job was fairly new, and my writing down what I thought the correct steps were, made it easy for my also overworked boss to just have someone review/review himself, then correct/adjust it.

  27. WellRed*

    My boss recently reached out to ask my current salary ( we are hiring my equivalent on another treat). I got 4% raise in February. I told her I thought it was about 44k to which she replied, “oof.” I later confirmed it was closer to 42.5k and made a mental note to ask for a salary adjustment. Before that happened she said she’d put in for 3k to bring it to $45k. Which I said I appreciated (won’t scratch the surface). Afterwards I realized if she thought $44k sucked, she should have advocated for a larger raise instead of only bringing me to 45k. Any way I can approach this at this point?

    1. Bread Addict*

      I am not sure. That is a 6% pay increase of my math is right, so its possible that she can’t make it a bigger raise.

      But depending on your relationship with your boss you could ask something about how the new number was selected? And if there is room for negotiation. I am not sure how to broach the off as thats just something she shouldnt have said. But any way you could find out the new hires wage band? Its possible the oof was related in that way. Like they are bringing in new hire at 43k or something and want to make sure yours is higher?

      1. WellRed*

        I suspect it’s a round number but this is good to ask about. I’m wondering if the new hire is being paid a little more but I have nothing to base that on except her initial reaction to my salary.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      If she said it would bring you to 45k then she found you were at 42.5k, in spite of what you told her.

      I think you do have an inroad here. This is a person who is interested in your happiness as an employee. Find out what the pay rates for your job in your area are. You know she seems to be in your corner. Show her your findings and ask her what else can be done to bring you up to par.

      “Ya know, you asked me what I was paid. I thought it was 44k, and it turned out to be 42.5k. I got to thinking about this and I started look at rates of pay for my work in our geographic area. Here’s what I found: [state findings]. I was wondering what could be done to get me up to within range of these numbers.”

  28. mental health work question*

    Does anybody have any tips or stories to share about working through mental health issues? Specifically when changing medications? Did anyone talk to management about it? Would you advise for or against bringing it up?

    I’ve been working through anxiety and depression with my doctor. I was on a medication that was somewhat helpful, but a few months ago my doctor and I thought it would be best to try something a new medication due to some side effects and the old medication not being as effective as maybe it could be. The transition was really rough on me. I was wildly anxious (not able to sleep, not eating, not able to enjoy anything in my free time) for a whole month. I work in a role I find challenging even in the best of times, so trying to perform while my mental health was out of whack was really hard and my performance was sub-par. Retrospectively, I can recognize I wasn’t hiding my anxiety as well as I should have to be considered professional. Nobody has talked to me about it and I didn’t do anything majorly out of line (just seemed very anxious in meetings) but I have to imagine it impacted folks’ impression of me. Is there something I should do (besides committing to being my best self going forward)?

    1. JanetM*

      Maybe “Thanks for your patience over the last month; I’d been dealing with a health issue and it’s now resolved”?

      1. asking for more feedback when it's likely negative*

        I guess part of the issue I’ve been having with that sort of framing is that I’m currently doing *better*, but I’m not at my best and there’s some chance I never will be again. I’m also not fully through the transition period– I think I’m through the worst of it, but there’s some change I could experience more side effects. This medication could also not be right and I’ll have to transition back. There’s just so much unknown and I’m still learning how to manage myself through this.

        1. asking for more feedback when it's likely negative*

          sorry, wrong name/title- this is the OP of mental health work question

        2. RagingADHD*

          Then instead of saying “resolved” you can say you are actively working with your medical team and seeing improvement.

          The point is just to let them know that you are self-aware that it affected you at work, and it is being addressed.

    2. Yeah summer!*

      You can work with HR for Ada accommodations. Google workplace accommodations for anxiety for ideas of what might help you. Also fmla could be a consideration during peak periods. Thy could be shifting to shorter days , shorter weeks or some time off if recommended by your doctor.
      I supervised someone who took some time related to mh needs. In my opinion it leads to better performance.

    3. Gipsy Danger*

      I have been through this a couple of times. What I did was tell my boss and/or HR, depending on the employer, that I had a chronic health condition, and that my doctor and I were trying some new medication, that might cause some temporary side affects like fatigue, insomnia, mood issues, and that I might not be at my best for (a week, a month, whatever). I would advise not to disclose that is it mental health related – Alison gives the same advice, due to the fact that it can harm you with some employers. I’ve had employers who were great when they found out I was mentally ill, and some that were super not great, so I don’t take the chance any more.

      Re: your coworkers, I would guess they didn’t notice as much as you assume. We are always so much more aware of our own weirdness than other people. I wouldn’t worry too much about it. If they did notice anything, they’ll think it was just a temporary blip in your behaviour at work.

      Finally, let me just say this: be gentle with yourself. None of what you’re dealing with is easy, try not to be too hard on yourself for being ill and going through treatment while also working.

    4. Curmudgeon in California*

      How about a quiet note that “Hey, I’ve been changing up some of my medications and am dealing with some sub-optimal side effects while my doctor and I work on it. Since medication side effects are weird, I may not be at my best until we get it straightened out.”

      Note that this does not say what type of meds they are. Even meds for “purely physical” stuff can have mental as well as physical side effects. Psych meds can have physical side effects, and body meds can have psych side effects, and sometimes both have both.

  29. Floris*

    I started a new job about 3 months ago and it has become pretty clear that it’s not a good fit. There’s a lot of politics here, a lot of gossip and a lot of passive aggressive back talk. It’s so weird! I’ve never been in a work environment where leadership consistently insults other departments. Anyway, I’ve been applying for other jobs and getting interviews pretty consistently. I’ve been keeping the current job off my resume but at a certain point in the interview process, should I let folks know I’m currently employed? My concern is if they want someone to start immediately and I need to give notice at the current job. I don’t plan on ever putting this job on my resume. Any thoughts on navigating this?

    1. anonymous73*

      I think if you’re at a job for a few months that’s irrelevant to your career it’s okay to leave it off your resume, but not when you’re currently working. I started my current job almost a year ago but I started looking for a new one about 6 months in. When asked why I was looking to leave I was honest – I barely had enough work to keep me busy and there was no potential to advance. Your reason for wanting to leave is a perfectly acceptable one.

    2. Moths*

      If you get an offer, I think it’s not unreasonable to ask for your start date to be in two weeks, even if they think you’re not employed. You don’t need to give them major reasons for why. Most places won’t expect people to start for at least two weeks, so I don’t think they would even bat an eye if you ask for a start date in two weeks, “so that you can take care of a few things before starting” (or some other random vague wording). If they push back and really need you to start sooner, you could ask for at least a week or so and just know that you might be burning a bridge with your current employer. But do you care? Is it the end of the world if you turn in your resignation and say that your last day will be tomorrow (or whenever)?

  30. Meg*

    I posted in the open thread a couple weeks ago about waiting to hear back on a job and feeling nervous about resigning in a burnt out and overworked position – well, the good news came! I did get the new position, negotiated for a higher salary and a three week break before starting the new job, and today is my last day at my current workplace!

    My manager and team didn’t react super well to the news and have been giving me even more to accomplish before leaving, but I’m nearly done with the list and am counting down the hours until I head off to mail my laptop back. I’ve sent my keep in touch emails and have transferred my files over. Of course there’s no exit interview or opportunity to share what I think would keep someone much happier in the position, but I guess that’s to be expected.

    Thank you to everyone who commented on my post last time, and to this community for being such a great space to think and expand my views of the workplace! I hope everyone gets some good news today

  31. Should I Apply? needs a new name*

    Favorite productivity advice or books, that are more relevant to people who’s job activities are always changing and are dependent on working with a lot of other people? I’ve been struggling getting stuff done with a new job, partially because I have difficulty figuring out what I am supposed to be doing and partially procrastination and lack of motivation. I have high level goals, but as this is an experienced role my manager pretty much expects me to figure out how to make those things happen.
    I just read ‘the 12 week year’, and I appreciate the framework it provides, but I’m hitting a mental roadblock in actually applying it. All the examples seem very geared towards sales and business owners. So any recommendations? I seem to be stuck in the translating goals to actions phase.

    1. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      The single best advice I’ve put into use is “eat the boiled frog first” – prioritise the thing you dread most.

      Also really rate the essay (now a book) Laziness Does Not Exist.

      1. Should I apply? needs a new name*

        Thanks, at least for this morning that comment was enough to get me to check off a few items I had been avoiding.

    2. Gracely*

      I’m a big fan of lists and marking things off. I have a dry erase board that sits in front of my monitor, and I keep a list on one side of stuff I need to do in the near future, and important dates/things that need to be done but I can’t yet on the other side. It helps so much, because if I haven’t marked most of the stuff on the near future side off by Thursday, I know what I need to focus on. And because I don’t like repeatedly seeing something on there that I’m dreading, I will often try to get whatever that is out of the way first so it’s off the board.

      Just search for “dry erase desktop whiteboard” and you should be able to find what I’m talking about. It has really been a game changer for me since I got it a couple years ago. There are newer models that even lift up to store your eraser/dry erase pens.

    3. RagingADHD*

      It’s a very lateral leap, but I got a lot of help from “Work Clean” by Dan Charnas. It’s all about developing an intentional practice of observing your own work patterns and making continuous adjustments to simplify, improve efficiency and effectiveness, or adapt to changing demands.

    4. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      One of my faves these days is “Start Finishing”, by Charlie Gilkey.

      I’ve occasionally blogged about bits & pieces from that kind of book – I’ll put a couple of links in another comment.

  32. Overeducated*

    I have one full-time direct report, who gave notice this week for what sounds like a truly exciting new opportunity. My managers are talking about the possibility of restructuring that position when we rehire in an overall positive and necessary way.

    However, I am a little nervous that they may restructure it to make this person my peer rather than report to mirror the way another office in our org did it, hiring a mid-career person like me instead of someone entry level like the last person. This means I would no longer be a supervisor (a major reason I took this job, I need that experience to eventually move up) and could also lose oversight of one of my program’s two major areas. This would make this job WAY less attractive to me, frankly. The only way I can see it being a problem for the organization is that it would increase the number of my manager’s direct reports, which is already large and growing and he seems a bit stretched thin, but he’d have to be the one to object to that, not me. Is there any way at all to address this concern with my management if they want to go that direction? Or is this just an “accept it and start searching” kind of issue if it happens?

    Just two weeks ago I turned down a pretty attractive supervisory job offer because I ultimately decided it wasn’t a significant upgrade from this job. Sigh.

    1. WellRed*

      You may have to wait and see. It depends on what benefits the company best and the reasons you list are all about the loss to you ( I understand your concerns, believe me). If your fears come true I think you need to take a hard look at next career steps. You turned down an attractive supervisory job because it wasn’t enough of a step up but I’m curious what that means to you. In your current role you supervise one person. That’s not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.

      1. overeducated*

        Yes, of course I mentioned that the drawbacks are more to me! Honestly, I don’t think it makes sense from a workload perspective to make my manager essentially the manager of multiple teams with no team leads/first level supervisors, but that seems to be the direction the org has been going in other situations.

        Problem is I’m at a bottleneck/catch-22 – I’ve been advised that I’m topped out as an individual contributor but can’t move into management without management experience. (There’s supervising interns, and I do that too, but it’s not the same.) So I took this job for the supervision and program management experience, without a pay raise.

        What “step up” means to me is an actual promotion that pays more than my current job, not just looks important on paper. I turned down the other job, supervising two people, because I did the math on compensation vs costs and realized I actually would have lost money taking it. But if my job becomes non-supervisory, that will make it hard to move up.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Advocate for yourself. This is your direct report. Tell them you believe that as the position reports to you, you should be the hiring manager, and you think it important to replace this person by a comparable employee – here is the position description, this is why the position is important to the organization. Remind them of the need to build a bench for the organization – if you don’t bring in entry level people you won’t have people to do the work.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Leverage the angle of this is your employee. You need to interview them yourself and they need to meet you.

      2. linger*

        Presumably one reason the company has shown a preference to bring in mid-career (peer-level) rather than trainee (entry-level) hires is to minimise on-boarding/training necessary for new hires in contributor roles.
        So there’s a stronger argument that OP should manage/supervise new hires linked to their own role if some of the knowledge required is specific to the organization and unlikely to be held by the new hire; but the argument is weaker if the knowledge required is general to the field and the new hire is intended to be someone already with some industry experience.

  33. DisneyChannelThis*

    Any advice for how to be supportive of coworkers going on maternity/paternity leave? Our workplace is doing a poor job with handling their leave, there’s some drama happening that I can’t fix (Their cool task A has been permanently given to a different coworker, another coworker made a comment to them about are they even going to come back to work after anyway, things like that).

    1. WellRed*

      My immediate suggestion is to shut down sexist gendered comments like that. No one says “you won’t come back” to men.

      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        Coworker didn’t want to go to HR or our boss about it. I didn’t hear it personally. I’m enraged on their behalf though.

    2. Mac*

      (This sounds like in-person drama, which is coloring my reply.)
      Get a card for the person going on leave and take it around for people to sign, and while doing so take it as the opportunity to say that you’re doing it because you feel like it’s important to show support. This will give you a chance to suss out who also thinks the person was treated badly. When you give the card to the person you can tell them they are appreciated, that they deserve to have their rights be upheld, and to please let you know if there’s anything you can do to help advocate for them.

      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        Does this set me up to be card person for all future people leaving? We didn’t do a card for the last person to go on leave but I think they specifically requested no work celebration.

        1. Mac*

          I hadn’t thought about that, but I’m a pretty impulsive person and have mostly worked in fairly loose workplaces where just because someone organized a birthday card/karaoke night or brought cupcakes, that didn’t mean that they (ok, me) were the Card Fairy/Karaoke Queen/Official In-house Baker for the rest of time.

  34. Nevian*

    I started a new job a month ago. After a month I’m feeling…meh. My manager is fine, not great but fine. I’ve had zero training after a month because they’re all too busy to train me. I get paid great salary (seriously great) but the benefits suck. It’s a solid 60% happiness level on my part with hopefully(?) better horizons.

    Yesterday a recruiter called me and wanted me to apply for a position that just opened up. It’s with a company I have some dealings with in the past and it would be a very similar job to what I’m doing now.

    But now I’m wondering how do I answer the inevitable “Why are you looking to leave?” question in the interview. Because I don’t have a great answer, other than boredom. And that’s hardly what a manager wants to hear, for very legitimate reasons. There is no answer that doesn’t lead this interviewing manager to think I won’t bail on them like I’m bailing on my current manager. I’m questioning if I should have taken this interview at all.

    Have any of you experienced this? Am I overthinking it?

    1. Bread Addict*

      Do you need to put this role on your CV? If you have only been there a short time its unlikely to hold much weight. I would leave it off entirely if I were you and sidestep the question.

      1. Nevian*

        Unfortunately I do have to leave it on. The company I’m interviewing with now ended up purchasing the last company I worked with, and I happened to leave right in the middle of the transition (so no bad feelings either way). So they know who I am and that I left. It’s also on my LinkedIn. Otherwise I would have left it off for sure!

    2. irene adler*

      Take the interview. You’ll never find out if the “grass is greener on the other side” if you don’t.

      You can cite some of the job tasks listed in the job description that you especially like and indicate that THESE are the things you want to do- but aren’t getting enough of an opportunity to do them in your current position.

      You don’t need to air the dirty laundry as to what you are finding is “meh” at this current position. You can indicate that you expected to do more of tasks X and Y (i.e. the tasks you especially like) but learned that wasn’t the case. Not sure if you want to go as far as saying the position is a bad fit though. You can say you have concerns that the position is not turning out to be what you expected.

    3. anonymous73*

      I would be honest. “I realize it’s only been a month but I’ve received no training because everyone is too busy, so I have no work to do and I’m not learning anything.” And technically this job came to YOU, so you weren’t looking to leave. The opportunity fell in your lap. And it has only been a month so you may need to give it some time. If this job sounds great then go for it, but if you’re only looking into it to escape your current situation, I think you need to be a bit more realistic and give it some time.

      1. BEC*

        If I was the hiring manager, I wouldn’t love hearing that. It just sounds negative. I would say “I was hired to do x and y and it turns out that I’m doing z, which is why I was excited to learn about your position which does x and y’

        1. anonymous73*

          Except that none of what you said is true. She’s not doing something other than what she was hired for, she’s doing nothing.

    4. londonedit*

      Focus on the things that would pull you towards the new job, rather than the things that are pushing you away from your current job. You could maybe say something like ‘I was excited to start my current role but it hasn’t turned out the way I was hoping it would, in terms of the work I’m doing and in terms of training – I’m really looking to get into a role where I can get stuck in and [fill in the details of whatever you’d be doing], because I [love being part of a collaborative team] [love getting into the details of a project] [whatever makes sense] and I really want to [use my skills from day one] [use everything I’ve learned so far about teapot painting] to [produce some excellent teapots] [develop my career in teapot painting] [etc]’.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I agree with anonymous73. The literal answer is that you aren’t looking to leave. This job is fine. You have no reason to leave unless they really make it worth your while.

      You are there to hear about this opportunity that could be great, especially because your prior history with the interviewing company was a positive experience. Then you talk about why this new opportunity is particularly interesting.

      Having a good job currently and no need to leave makes you more desirable and gives you a better negotiating position. They came to you, you didn’t seek them out.

    6. Mill Miker*

      The recruiter reached out to you, so I’d be inclined to say you’re not sure you are looking to leave, but would be willing to for the right opportunity.

  35. Mimmy*

    Question for readers in higher education, especially student services!

    I was wondering what my chances are in finding positions that offer at least a hybrid option or even almost entirely remote. My husband and I had initially felt that we had flexibility to search for jobs outside of our home state. However, given current economic conditions, we’ve decided that I should focus on jobs within my state or that is hybrid/remote.

    An added caveat is that I don’t drive. A job close to my home would be ideal but I don’t want to limit myself. However, I live in New Jersey and our public transportation system… is less than perfect. I know many people are willing to commute 1-2 hours each way every day in whatever shape or form, but I’m not one of them; it would just aggravate my disability. Thus, although close to home is best, I’d entertain opportunities that are a bit further away if they allowed WFH with some in-person requirements or even fully remote. But a career counselor said I’ll be “hard pressed” to find a lot of these with these options in my field of choice. Is she right?

    As an example: I applied for a job at a school in Philly and had the phone interview yesterday. It went well but after looking at transportation options, it would not be financially feasible; plus, the commute would be very time-consuming. You live and you learn *shrug*.

    This will be my first job search for a professional-level position; I know I have to be realistic and that this is going to be a lot of trial and error.

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      My husband works in higher education and almost all positions in his workplace are hybrid, so I’m not sure I agree with the career counselor. However, I also know his workplace isn’t enthusiastic about fully remote work; there’s a strong sense among the leadership that “if the students are here, we need to be here too” (at least part of the time). I’m sure it varies widely from university to university, but maybe look for schools or programs that are still offering a lot of online classes as those will be more likely to have a culture of doing things remotely.

      1. Mimmy*

        It’s interesting that you mention this, because the school I just graduated from is primarily an online school, but they require in-person work at least 3-4 days a week and I think they’re pushing for 100% in-person work by this fall. Many students do live in the state where the school is headquartered, but many others live out of state, myself included.

      2. Gracely*

        I was going to say this. It’s going to depend heavily on the school and its culture. But leadership in a lot of higher ed really hates remote work if there are students on campus. Even for positions that don’t interact with students.

        There are definitely hybrid options out there, but *especially* with student services positions, they do tend to want people physically there if the students are there. I would not count on finding much that’s fully remote in your field, honestly. You might need to resign yourself to at least a couple of days commuting as your best case scenario, or shifting into something that’s not student-focused.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!*

      Maybe look at for-profit professional development companies/schools or other online only schools. I worked for a nation wide real estate professional development school. At the time we were in office with a few remote people but from my friends that still work there they all went remote and are staying remote. For me it was student support services over the phone and via email. Basically helping people choose classes based on what their needs were (licensing requirements for state, etc). It can be much more customer service than perhaps what you are looking for.

      But I think I would start looking at places that have online only programs. Usually this means that the professors etc are all remote so they would probably be more flexible.

      Good luck.

      1. Mimmy*

        My specific area of interest is actually disability services, so maybe not as high-volume as student advising, but the work can be demanding from what I’ve seen (I’m new to the field).

        I am also interested in accessibility (e.g., are learning management systems accessible for students with disabilities? Are faculty employing Universal Design strategies?), so if customer service ends up being too much, I know I have other options, and I imagine some of this could be done remotely, especially online schools.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      I think it depends where you are. Heck it can even depend what department you are in. When I worked in higher ed, the school in general was very against work from home and our department especially was against it until they were literally forced to. But I had a friend who worked in a student services adjacent department and her supervisor was more than happy to let them work from home 3 days a week. I know that’s not helpful but it just kind of depends on the culture! I am currently going to school online through another university and they for the most part seem to be working from home, at least partly.

    4. AcademicAnonymous*

      I work in the academic affairs so slightly different but many of the same issues. It really does just vary from institution to institution and even across departments within the same institution. If you are looking for jobs with direct student contact (like advisor), it will probably be hard to find a fully remote job at a traditional brick-and-mortar institution. If you are looking for a support job that doesn’t necessarily interact with students regularly, you’re more likely to be able to find a remote job, but it will be hard to figure out from the outside who allows remote and who doesn’t (unless it’s explicitly stated in the job ad).
      Did you ask in the interview yesterday if they allow remote/hybrid work? Sometimes that can be negotiated, depending on the circumstances. You would just want to be sure to get it in writing :-)
      If you haven’t already, I would definitely recommend focusing on institutions that are primarily online, like Western Governors or Southern New Hampshire. As other commenters have suggested, many primarily online institutions had a lot of remote positions pre-pandemic and are continuing that.

      1. Mimmy*

        I did ask about remote/hybrid options, and it looks like the best I’d expect is one day a week from home. I ended up withdrawing.

        I have been keeping my eyes open for jobs at online universities. It just so happens that one came up for Western Governors yesterday and I just submitted my application. Their headquarters are almost completely across the country from me, so I’m a little nervous about expected work hours. I’ve seen their jobs come up a few times but have hesitated; they tend to inexplicably disappear, so we’ll see what happens.

    5. Sabrina Spellman*

      I’m going to guess that there are few positions that will grant a fully remote position in student services unless there’s no reason for you to be in a physical office (like if there isn’t one). Remote work for my office was basically unheard of prior to the pandemic; I got some days to complete project work, but even my boss (department head) was only granted a couple of days a month. You could ask about current requirements for employees in those offices, but I’ve noticed that a lot of institutions are trying to move employees back in for the fall semester. I wish you luck!

    6. ThatGirl*

      My husband works in higher ed mental health counseling, which is something that COULD be done mostly remotely, but it isn’t, anymore — both his last job and his new one wanted people back in office as much as possible.

      That said, I do think it depends a lot on the school and the job; I have a friend who works for a big state school in another state and her job is pretty flexible on where she does it.

    7. Shhhh*

      As others have said, it’s going to depend a lot on how much student contact the roles you’re interested in would have.

      I’m a librarian at a large university. Our administration is about to release our new flexible work policy for staff, and it’s expected to heavily encourage if not out right require in person work at least a few days a week, especially for staff that work in student-facing roles. To be honest, I don’t think anyone outside of some research faculty, IT staff, and maybe some other “behind the scenes” jobs are going to be allowed to work remotely more than 2 days a week if they’re even allowed that.

      Unfortunately, I do kind of agree with the career counselor that there’s not going to be a lot out there, but I also agree with other commenters that it’s going to vary widely by institution and even department.

    8. AnonForThis*

      If you want fully remote, I’d only apply to jobs that were listed as fully remote *and* are physically distant from your location. If it’s in commuting distance, even if it’s remote now it might not stay that way.

      But I agree with others that for student services you’ll be looking at jobs that are primarily in office, with hybrid defined as at most a couple of days a week – expect the commute to be a regular part of your life.

  36. Prospect Gone Bad*

    I’m trying to train people in a new software and have problems on both ends. Anytime I ask the provider a question about a setup step, I get a response that boils down to “forget it, we’ll do it ourselves!” Either verbally or via phone. Once they say this, it’s hard to get the task back. It’s almost like they think I am asking questions to find reasons to not have to actually do the work.

    Then on the training side, my coworkers are coming up with 101 reasons why not to do the training or why the training isn’t good. It’s getting so frustrating. It doesn’t need to be 100% perfect. It’s supposed to give you a reason to dive into the software. Then you tell me what features you want or think are missing.

    I don’t get why there has to be so much negativity. It’s been 9 months of testing and requirements gathering and I haven’t heard one positive comment. No “neat it does that.” No “that display looks nice.” Nope. You do 100 things correct and they barely look at it and write it off because they find 1 thing that was done wrong.

    This is always sort of how it works but it’s so bad this time. I may need to give a big picture speech at the next meeting. The jump-the-shark moment this week was someone who’s well into her 40s dropping the ball on a bunch of tasks and blaming “lack of training” on us. All she needed to do was log in and go to one window and download stuff. She didn’t even try (I can see that she didn’t). So now I have proof that they are just complaining without putting in the effort.

    1. anonymous73*

      Everyone hates change. Period. You just need to let them know in no uncertain terms that this change WILL happen, and the sooner they accept it the easier it will be for them. I’ve been there several times. It’s not fun.

      With the provider, can you say to them “I don’t need to you to do it for me, I need you to answer my questions”?

    2. Caramel & Cheddar*

      The “lack of training” complaint is the one that sticks in my craw because of how much time I spend training people. If we really did lack training, I would have so much free time to do other work.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        Agreed. Someone was complaining to me about “best practices” with training. I asked if the person had any questions. Answer was no. So they didn’t even have an agenda of issues to discuss, they just had a vague concept of my training being not up to par. Meanwhile, their coworker has a few tickets in for very specific problems they found in testing, all on their own.

        I’m wondering if people just like to complain, and when they find something that feels easy to understand to grasp to, they complain incessantly about it

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          “Lack of training” so often just means “It was my responsibility to do this and I didn’t, and now someone is mad.”

    3. Mac*

      Maybe your coworkers are just really unreasonable or resistant to change, but I’ve been trained (and given training) in lots of different kinds of software/hardware systems, and there’s usually not this level of bad feedback from trainees unless there’s an actual problem. The fact that you’re having communication difficulties with the developers is also a red flag for me– possibly they are as bad at designing a clear, user-friendly product as they are at giving clear, user-friendly customer service.
      I also feel like it’s at least a yellow flag that someone was completely unaware of multiple crucial tasks because she didn’t (my interpretation of “didn’t even try”) know the tasks even existed or how to find them. That to me says that the new software isn’t at all integrated with what people currently use for task management (email/calendar notifications/etc), or that the way things are prioritized when you log in aren’t useful for alerting users to information that is hidden 2 or 3 layers down.
      I also notice that you say you are frustrated by the negativity, but DO want feedback from people on what features are missing. Do you want them to voice their opinions or don’t you? If your problem is that their feedback is not as constructive or actionable as you need it to be, then maybe you need to hire some professional beta testers who are experienced at testing products and giving specific, helpful feedback about what doesn’t work. Expecting that from people who just want something that works so they can get on with all the other work they have to do… I dunno, that might just be too much to expect, is all.
      Either way, I wish you luck! It certainly sounds frustrating, and it’s clear you’re stuck in the middle, which is not a fun place to be.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        To address your first paragraph – my problems keep being failure to launch type problems. I will discuss a potential feature with the developers/provider and if I have one little follow up such as “where do I fill out the request formally” they take is as “I don’t want to do any work.” I feel like they’re projecting (is that the right word?). Or behaving this way based on their previous clients. I don’t think I am doing anything to cause it, but I want it to stop.

        As per the last one, your question with the “DO” I DO want this but people aren’t giving me this. I have a list of these items from 3 people out of 10. The other 7 are either ignoring the project or wanting to have conversations about “a better way to train would be _______” perhaps we should (comments usually boil down to more of the same type of meeting with a PPT where everyone is half paying attention, and which we did already anyway) then I ask for specifics and they repeat themselves. 2 have referenced the 3 people who already did formal training, some self-learning, and came up with questions, and I had to respond “but they don’t have any issues that aren’t being worked on.”

        I feel like everyone is overcomplicating everything. For example, billing. It’s money in, money out. Same at any job. The “revenue report” shows revenue. The “payment report” shows payment. I can put in some test data but at the end of the day, I don’t really know why you keep complaining. Do you want more reports? Then tell me what they are? Do you see a problem with the existing reports?

        1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

          For the people who aren’t engaging… I don’t know if this would work in your situation, but I’d be thinking maybe I’d fix a time to go and sit with them while they try to do whatever ordinary task they’re supposed to be doing with it. I’d present it to them as seeing for myself what kinds of problems they were running into, and it would indeed be that. At the same time, if they were simply putting off getting to grips with it, my being there would help to create a space for them to focus on it – a sort of gentle pressure not to avoid it.

        2. SofiaDeo*

          For the vendor, consider saying something along the lines of “when I ask a question on how to do something, my perception is that you are interpreting it as me requesting that *you* do it. I need this to stop immediately. I am wanting to *learn a process*, not have you do the work.”

          I have seen stuff like this with consulting firms hired to be a go-between for actual software dev and end client; or between software firms having a contract to manage the database instead of end client doing the managing. IMO they don’t want the end client to become proficient, they want to keep their go-between contract. Any possibility this is going on?

  37. Accommodations newbie*

    After nearly all of my colleagues worked remotely for a full year, and then again for a few months over the initial omicron wave, my workplace is officially back in the office full-time with some unofficial flexibility for occasional remote work. I recently submitted an accommodation request for full-time remote work for a few months, on the grounds of temporary immunosuppression related to pregnancy. Although this had been approved for other pregnant people over the last 2.5 years, my employer is seemingly shifting to be more stringent of late—one colleague with the same request and reason ended up being able to work from home only part-time rather than full-time as requested—and the emailed response I got similarly indicates resistance to my request. In the email, they cited COVID safety measures being taken (although they incorrectly summarized the masking policy in a way that made it seem more protective than it really is) and suggested an alternative option of adjusting my FT in-office schedule to work slightly earlier or later hours “to avoid crowds during busy commuting hours” (the adjustment has been available to me throughout my tenure with this employer, and would still have me commuting on public transit during busy times). Note that I can do literally all of my job perfectly well from home, which I have been for the several weeks since submitting my request, and my supervisor has no concerns about my performance. I honestly cannot think of any ways in which me being remote again for a few months would impose any cost or burden on my employer.

    My questions are:
    1. Does an option already available to me constitute an accommodation?
    2. If my employer denies my request or tries to negotiate something other than the exact accommodation that was requested, do they need to articulate a basis (cost, burden, inability to complete job functions, etc.) for not approving the original request?
    3. Would accommodations negotiations be something it’s appropriate to call in a union representative for? (I’m part of a union, but their website is not very clear about… anything, really.)
    4. For those who have been through accommodations negotiations, any advice or scripts?

    Thanks!

    1. HR Friend*

      Once you say or even imply the magic word “accommodation”, employers are required to engage in a conversation with you about providing a reasonable accommodation. “Reasonable” is up for endless interpretation, but the bottom line is that the accommodation granted has to work for you and the business, ie your accommodation can’t create undue hardship for their operations. If they need you in-office (even if you [rightly] think they don’t), then they can counter with something that addresses your needs and theirs. In my experience, 100% WFH is an extreme end of the workplace accommodations spectrum. Stuff like an adjusted schedule, desk placement, PPE, etc.. those are more common.

      Definitely talk to your union rep. This is exactly what they’re there for! Your rep is probably very well equipped to advocate on your behalf and advise you on your specific workplace.

      1. Accommodations newbie*

        The thing is… well, two things: my doctor explicitly recommended FT WFH until delivery (for the reasons given) so it’s not just me pulling that out of personal preference, though obviously my preference is to follow my doctor’s medical advice, and the flexible scheduling on offer doesn’t actually reduce my chances of exposure to COVID compared to my existing schedule (same office setting and density due to core hours, lengthy rush hour). Even part-time WFH would reduce work-related risk of infection by, ~50% instead of 100% – in the current omicron context, that makes no sense to me given the possible health ramifications. I see it as much more likely to be a burden on my employer if I’m sick and out of commission for a week or more than if I’m doing everything remotely and in stable good health.

        Follow-up questions: how much pull does my need to not put myself at risk more than absolutely necessary carry, in terms of what will ‘work for me’? And would pulling in my supervisor to affirm that there is not a need for me to be in-office, even for interactions with colleagues, help my case?

      2. Pisces*

        HR Friend, would you be willing to elaborate on 100% WFH being an extreme end of the workplace accommodations spectrum?

    2. oh geez*

      HR Friend shares good info, I’ll just add some:

      You can browse askjan dot org by both accommodation and disability to get ideas for what might work for you or what your employer might offer

      Re #2, I’m not sure how it works in the private sector, but in my experience they need to cite essential job functions. “Interaction with onsite colleagues” can be an essential job function. The bar for cost as a burden is really high and almost never a good reason to refuse a request. However, they are under no obligation to offer you the exact accommodation you request (the case you mentioned is a pretty cut and dry example of this: you asked for WFH, they offered flexible scheduling)

      It almost never hurts to at least ask your union rep if they can help, or if they know who you should talk to instead.

      1. Accommodations newbie*

        I’m glad to know that in your setting, essential job functions do need to be cited and that the bar for refusing based on cost is high!

        1. oh geez*

          You can google “EEOC essential functions” to read more about how an employer is likely to determine your essential job functions, because it sounds like you might have disagreements with them about what those are in this case (needing to be onsite or not) – knowing what they’re probably tapping for that information (or should be tapping if they’re not) might help strengthen your understanding of the process

    3. Sabrina Spellman*

      I received an accommodation to work remotely 5 days a week once my office returned to some in person scheduling. I can’t remember when the exact timing was, but probably summer through fall 2020 as I had my daughter in September 2020. I had to explain to my doctor why I wanted them to write an accommodation request to my institution (pregnant & located in a busy hallway, next to a bathroom, no vaccine at the time). Has your doctor been in contact with your company about your needs?

      1. Accommodations newbie*

        I submitted a letter from my doctor that included the immune condition, underlying condition of pregnancy, health concerns around COVID, and advice to work remotely through delivery. I don’t want my employer and doctor to be in direct contact without me (my employer is under pressure to have people in the office as much as possible, so I don’t fully trust them to relay info or conclusions from direct contact with my doctor accurately).

  38. Annosaurus Rex*

    Reducing work hours or taking time off for mental health. Has anyone done it with FMLA without a crisis first?

    I’ve been on a treadmill of work, kids, life for several years now. I’ve been toying with the idea of either taking a month off, or reducing my days and hours (I work FT, salaried)

    I’m covered by FMLA, and live and work in California, so have lots of protections. And can absolutely swing reduced salary financially for a period of time. And I have good mental health support, I like my therapist and they would totally write something if I really needed them to.

    Has anyone done this without a crisis first? How much did you have to share and what kinds of documentation did you need to provide? Will I need to get a letter from a doctor? Very interested in hearing from people in the US on the mechanics of doing this.

    1. smeep248*

      I have and I didn’t share much. Our company FMLA was managed by a third party so I filled out their form, they contacted my doctor, my doctor filled out the form, it went back to the third party and no one at work knew anything except I was approved for FMLA, the dates and duration of that approval, and how they could request additional information.

      1. Little Miss Sunshine*

        Similar experience here. Everything about the leave was handled by the 3rd party so communication of details with my employer was totally controlled by me. I actually used FMLA twice within a few months for different reasons, and in the first case I kept it very private, and the second case I was very open. I found that speaking with my doctor about his recommendations, my concerns, and the FMLA paperwork beforehand allowed me to plan my leave around my needs and my doctor wrote the supporting documentation accordingly.

  39. Rona Necessity*

    I just moved across the country for work. I used to live in the same time zone as Alison and had my workday segmented out by when she would post (arrive at work, read the midnight post; work for a few hours, read the 11 am post; lunch, more work, read the 2:30 ish post). Now I’m three time zones over and my Ask A Manager routine has been shattered!

    1. londonedit*

      I always find it really odd when the UK changes the clocks in the spring/autumn and the US doesn’t do it on the same weekend – there’ll be a week where I’m expecting a 4pm post and it doesn’t come, or it goes up at 3pm or whatever!

      1. Hlao-roo*

        In 1986 and again in 2006, the US extended daylight saving time by a few weeks on either end. I don’t know if US and UK clock changes were synchronized before those extensions, but that may be why they aren’t synchronized now.

        1. londonedit*

          Interesting! Ours always go forward on the last Sunday in March (at 2am so really in the middle of the night between the Saturday and Sunday) and back on the last Sunday in October.

  40. OTGW*

    I got a full time job after only work pt for years. I start on Monday and they’re gonna go over benefits and such. I have no idea what like, to expect. They didn’t exactly teach health insurance and whatever in school, and my dad (mom used dad’s health insurance) doesn’t really know how to explain it either. Also, I think he only got like, one plan where as I guess I’m gonna have a few to choose from.

    I think I want an HSA card (parents have it, it’s been handy) but????? Please help. I have no idea what questions to ask, what to keep in mind when choosing plans. It’s all just ?????????????????

    For what it’s worth, I (and my husband) don’t have any chronic things going on. The biggest immediate thing to worry about is I desperately need to fix my teeth.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      They’ll likely be several plans you can pick from. I usually pick midrange by price and then plan to adjust next year rather than spend a week trying to understand the differences. The exception is if you know you need surgery or haven’t seen a dentist in a decade, then go for the pricier but higher coverage ones.

      Some points to look for:

      Dental – want 2 cleanings a year, 1 set of xrays usually

      Vision – do you need glasses? then spend more to get good vision, if you just need eye checkup dont.

      Do you need referrals to specialists or can you schedule yourself? (Some plans if you need PT you can just make the appointment, other plans your need your regular doctor to see you and confirm you need it then they send you to specific set of PTs physical therapy)

      What is the deductible (amount you have to pay before insurance kicks in to cover)?

      How much is regular appointment copay? I pay 20 bucks each time I see doctor until I max out the deductible, the insurance still covers the rest of the appointment but that 20 copay exists. Old plan didn’t have copays was nice.

      Do they have in network/out of network cost differences and do you care? If you travel a lot you should care more, ER on vacation super $$$$ if out of network. If you have specific doctors you want to keep seeing you should care, and check online if they are in network or not.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      A few basic things just to get you started (I’m no healthcare expert):

      – Dental insurance, vision insurance, and health insurance are usually all separate plans. Be sure to opt in to dental insurance if you want work done on your teeth. (Vision insurance is usually only helpful for people who wear glasses/contacts.)

      – For health insurance, there are three general types of plans: HMO, PPO, and high deductible. The benefits orientation should cover some basic info about different plans (if your work offers a choice of plan, some companies only have one option). The basic info will usually be monthly cost to you, the employee, yearly deductible, and copays.

      – HSAs (health savings accounts) are only offered with high deductible plans. The idea behind them is you can contribute money tax-free to your HSA and use that to pay for healthcare (also tax-free when you spend the money on health care). A high deductible plan + HSA generally works best for people with very low healthcare costs and people with very high healthcare costs.

    3. NeedMyMeds*

      I’ve recently had to switch from my parents’ medical insurance to my workplace’s plans, and so I have learned many things about insurance.

      If you’re generally healthy, don’t have any chronic illnesses, and aren’t planning on any surgeries or pregnancies, then a high-deductible health plan with an HSA is the way to go. You’ll have to pay more before any insurance kicks in for stuff that isn’t fully covered preventative care, but your monthly cost is A Lot less.

      Otherwise, you’d probably want a more “traditional” plan, which has a higher monthly cost, but starts covering things a lot sooner. They don’t get HSA accounts, because you don’t need as much saved up before insurance starts helping out, but you may get an FSA which is more complicated and probably not worth it if you don’t have predictable medical expenses, but is good if you have predictable medical expenses and put just that much on it.

      The things to ask about are “deductible” – how much you have to pay before insurance starts paying for stuff, “monthly cost” – self explanatory, and “max-out-of-pocket” – how much you would pay in a year before insurance covers Everything in case you get in a serious accident or get really sick or something.

    4. No Tribble At All*

      The blog nerdwallet has some advice about choosing health insurance plans! And congrats on the new job.

      – HSA (health savings account) is an account that the company and you put money into tax-free. Then you use it for health things only. If you need a lot of dental work, a HSA is good because you can use that money for dental stuff. You can save this money. The HSA bank account is yours and will go with you if you leave the company.
      – Dental insurance is usually separate from medical insurance.
      – HSAs usually come as part of a “high deductible healthcare plan”. This means that the amount you, the patient, have to pay before insurance kicks in (the deductible) is higher. These kinds of plans are good if you’re OK with potentially higher upfront costs.
      – HMOs are usually bad. I don’t remember what the acronym is, but basically you have only a certain set of doctors you can go to, and if you go outside that network, you have to pay for all of it out-of-pocket. :(

      Some of your decision will be how comfortable you are with risk :) for example, I picked a slightly higher cost insurance that has a lower annual maximum because my concern is always “what if I get hit by a car”. If you’d rather save more money now, you can get options that work the other way.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Yes! Some places give more options than others. I actually have a FSA, which is usually with a lower deductible plan.

        Also, check if your primary providers are on the plan you choose.

    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      Find out what the HSA covers & whether the money rolls over to the next year. (They’ll probably tell you anyway.)

      When mine is going to end, I often buy contact solution or another covered item I know I’ll use.

    6. Rona Necessity*

      Assuming you’re in America, there will be at least three different insurances: medical, dental, and vision. Can you ask HR or whoever’s responsible for your onboarding to send you the benefits info ahead of time so you can look at it over the weekend?

      Here’s a quick rundown of my thought process…
      (1) Medical:
      (a) Make a list of the medical professionals you see or should see. This will include people like therapists, psychiatrists, physical therapists, but also your standard GP and any other specialists. Include how often you typically see them or how often you expect to see them.
      (b) Make a list of your regular prescriptions and look up how controlled they are. The insurance plans I’ve had in the past have had tiers of prescriptions based on regulation, so my copay for my Adderall is slightly more than my copay for my Zoloft.
      (c) Look at your list from (1a). Are you picky about who you see? Particularly for any therapists or psychiatrists? If so, you may want to select a plan that will reimburse you for out-of-network costs, in case your preferred providers aren’t in-network.
      (d) Do you travel a lot? Do any extreme sports or adventuring like rock climbing or parasailing? Look for the plan that has good emergency coverage.
      (e) You’re going to want to look up the terms “co-pay”, “deductible”, and “coinsurance” beforehand. There are more terms, obviously, but those tend to be the big differentiators between plans.

      (2) Dental:
      (a) Make a list of any upcoming concerns in the next couple years. You said you need to fix your teeth. Do you know if that will just be braces/orthodontia, or will there be surgeries? Do you have your wisdom teeth out already? Have you gone to your regular checkup in the last couple years? If not, plan for the worst and suppose you might need procedures like crown installation.
      (b) Again, are you picky about your dentist/orthodontist/dental surgeon? Consider a plan with a wider network (so not an HMO, probably) or one with good out-of-network coverage.

      (3) Vision
      (a) When’s the last time you had an eye exam? If it’s been more than a year, plan on getting one and possibly needing some corrective lenses.
      (b) Do you wear glasses? Contacts? Do you want to get LASIK or a similar surgery? My vision plans have usually paid for either glasses or contacts each year, up to $100, with discounts at their preferred outlets.
      (c) To be honest, all the places I’ve ever worked have just had the one vision plan, so this might be the easiest part.

      (4) Other Stuff
      (a) Each month you’ll have a “premium” due on each plan. Your employer may cover some or all of it for certain plans. Your premium will be higher if your spouse is on your plan.
      (b) An HSA is a savings account solely for healthcare related costs. You choose an amount to contribute from your paycheck each month. This money comes out before taxes. Your employer may contribute a certain amount to your HSA, but that’s less common in my experience.
      (c) You probably won’t have to choose right that minute! Ask if you can take the paperwork home to consider on your own time. I think I had a week to file mine.
      (d) Ask when your insurance will start. My last job had a probationary period of 30 days, then my benefits started the first day of the following month. [That sucked, since I started on the 5th of the month.] My current job started my first day.

    7. jane's nemesis*

      Lean on the benefits/hr people for help! They should know how to explain the options to you. Also make sure to read through all the materials you are provided. Google things you don’t understand.

      You are likely to see several options to choose from, ranging in expense. You will need to choose the plan that best balances deductible/coverage/monthly payment for your budget. And HSA account is helpful if the plan you choose has a high deductible.

      As far as dental, that’s likely to be a separate plan – again, you might have a couple options to pick from. If you know you need a lot of work done in the first year, you might want to pick the plan with the lowest deductible, even if the monthly cost is higher.

      1. Princess Xena*

        Yes yes yes! Especially at a bigger company, this is part of their job description. When I started the HR people had a specific meeting just to go through benefits with my starting class in great depth, in both video and live chat formats.

    8. Should I Apply? needs a new name*

      This is based on my personal experience with larger companies, so your individual experience may vary. I have usually had 3-4 healthcare options to pick from, with a 30 day enrollment period that you have to make your decisions. So it is unlikely that you will have to make the decision on the spot. Also usually every year, there is an open enrollment period (for me its usually Nov) where you can change your option for the next year in case you didn’t like the option you picked previously.

      Dental and Optical are usually separate decisions and have fewer options, usually a base option and a “premium” option, with the primary difference being how much you pay up front and the coverage limit.

      Usually the big differences between healthcare plans are the deductible limits, the monthly premiums, who the network covers, and charges for in vs. out of net work. There is a lot of information on-line about different types of plans and what they mean, and an explanation of differences should be provided by the company. I

      If you already have doctors / clinics that you use, I would suggest first checking if they are covered, in-network, as out-of network costs are generally covered at a much lower rate with higher deductible limits.

      HSA – are only available for high deductible health plans, meaning you will have to pay more out of your own pocket for healthcare costs, but they should have lower monthly deductions. You also have to contribute your own money to fund the HSA (the company might provide some).

    9. Gnome*

      HSA is for high deductible plans only. The closest thing for regular plans is an FSA, but that money expires (HSA does not). Worth Googling the difference and basic info about these. HSA accounts can be good for saving for emergencies, especially if you only have high deductible plan options and are generally healthy. Generally, you fund both of these with pre-tax dollars. Some companies contribute to HSAs on your behalf.

      You should have something like 30 days to do the insurance paperwork, so you have time to look it over. Don’t feel like you need to figure it out the first day.

      Dental and vision are usually separate. Since you have dental concerns, look closely at that. Often there are only 1-2 options for dental, so it shouldn’t be too bad. Check to see if your favorite dentist is in-network (usually on the insurance website).

      Pay attention to the costs of the plans. Sometimes they show you the monthly cost, sometimes the “per paycheck” cost. Sometimes dental is shown one way and medical another, so look closely!

      Good luck!

    10. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      Be sure to find out your window of enrollment. If you don’t enroll within the window, you might not have a chance to enroll again until you have a qualifying event (getting married/divorced, having a baby) or until Open enrollment (usually in the Fall) in which case, the coverage would not be in effect until the 1st of the New Year.

    11. Christmas Carol*

      The last time I was faced with a choice of multiple insurance plans, I reached out to my doctor’s billing personnel, they know what will and won’t be paid for, and helped me choose which plans worked best with the care I was likely to need in coming years.

    12. Hillary*

      The other thing to compare is the “out of pocket maximum” – that’s the most* you have to pay yourself for medical (apart from premiums and some uncovered expenses). I work for a large company, with our current options the high deductible plan is almost always more cost effective. I make a spreadsheet and models every open enrollment, but I’m a data geek.

      Dental will be separate. Once your insurance kicks in it’s worth getting quotes – prices can vary wildly across different practices.

    13. 55 and looking at retirement*

      You’ve gotten some great advice here on health insurance plans. I just wanted to chime in about other benefits, in particular 401k. If your company offers a match, make sure you are contributing enough to get it. That’s free money for you! And if possible, contribute as high a percentage as you can. Pay your future self first! You will be happy you did as you have the power of compound interest in your corner.

  41. Anon for this*

    I had a screening interview for a new position yesterday. At the end, the interviewer said she had a few additional questions, and the last one was “Can we discuss compensation?” I said “Oh, that would be great! Can you tell me what the range for this position is?” AND SHE TOLD ME! AND – it was $15k more than I would have said!! Even if I don’t get this job, at least I can consider the interview good practice, because I finally figured out how to say this without shooting myself in the foot.

  42. Greenhouse Lackey*

    I’m in a weird position at work. I’m planning on quitting in the next 4-6 months but I’m wondering how to handle it.

    I work in a small family business. There’s jobs that I’m solely responsible for. My main responsibilities is running the social media pages, coordinating deliveries of products, and making sure invoices are paid. I work in a greenhouse/landscaping company. Theoretically, my coworkers COULD do what I do, but the truth is they are all terrible at it so my boss put me in charge. I keep getting more responsibilities and I can juggle it but the problem is my coworkers make my work life miserable.

    There’s constant problems I have to fix on top of my regular responsibilities and I’m so sick of picking up everyone’s slack. We’re constantly understaffed and over worked especially during the spring season. I really reached the end of my rope during Easter because I was the ONLY one working on Easter Lily orders and 1 employee is notorious for constantly calling out so dealing with that and the onslaught of customers it became too much to handle. I told my boss that something had to change for next year because I was stretched too thin.

    My boss is aware of the problems but the problems never get fixed. After my complaint I got a raise which is great but I’ll still have to deal with the same crap. My boss’s wife says the business will be screwed if I quit and I did originally say I wanted to stay until he retired or sold the business but I think my tolerance for crap has really decreased. I think he has an inkling I’m not happy because of the raise and I’ve gotten more days off but when I return, there’s fires I need to put out.

    I just don’t know how much warning I need to give since I’m the sole person responsible for a lot of the day to day functions and I said I wanted to be there long term. I’ve been at the business 5 years and I worked for my boss previously when I was in college so we know each pretty well.

    He also will not fire anyone. One employee is stealing and the other crashed his work truck into his personal truck (among other things. The antics of my coworkers would be a totally separate post).

    1. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

      Two weeks. The dysfunction of this business is not your problem. You do not own it. You do not run it. Go.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Two weeks. You shouldn’t care more about their company than they do. THEY have problems they need to address, not you.

      1. Greenhouse Lackey*

        I know it’s within my right to quit whenever. I truly like what I do and don’t really want to quit but my sanity is more important. Job searching is a pain too and the whole fighting the devil you know thing.

      2. pcake*

        This – exactly this!

        If they keep problem employees even when they know they’re harming the business, they don’t care enough about their business OR the employees who aren’t a problem. You being the only one who can do these things correctly is just part of their bad management.

        Please take care of yourself and your needs. You’re not their family or a part owner of the business. You’ve brought serious issues to their attention, and it is very much their choice not to do anything about them.

    3. Radical Edward*

      Oof. This sounds so much like one of my previous jobs that I started feeling anxious just reading about it! I quit with no extended notice period – I was very matter of fact and emotionless about it, and constantly reminded myself of their refusal to fire others who were being actively harmful. That helped to staunch my default tendency to feel guilty (hi, serial people pleaser/recovering doormat/perfectionist here). Having to interact with the problem people daily certainly helped – while draining, it kept me from developing rose tinted glasses after management tried to sweet-talk me into reconsidering.

      You truly don’t owe your employer anything beyond the time they pay you for, not even a notice period if you’re worried about how they’re going to behave once you break the news. Of course it depends on whether you can afford to burn that bridge, but if they’re going to react poorly then they’re burning it for you and that’s that. :/ Good luck!

      1. Greenhouse Lackey*

        I don’t think any bridges will be burnt with my boss. It’s possible I’ll make the slack coworkers mad but who cares what they think. I’m sure things will launch into panic mode when I turn in my notice. We typically get a bonus in summer so I was waiting for that before I seriously start looking.

        1. Everything Bagel*

          Good idea! Don’t let them guilt you about the bonus either when you do quit. You earned it.

    5. Caramel & Cheddar*

      “My boss’s wife says the business will be screwed if I quit”

      It’s amazing how they’ll say this and yet do nothing to make sure you want to stay.

      1. Greenhouse Lackey*

        It’s crazy because his wife orders products for the retail portion and gets our checks for payday but that’s it for that part of the business. She’s told my boss that certain people need to go if you want to keep the good staff but my boss is so non-confrontational that it’s sad.

        The worst part was after getting Easter lily orders out this year I didn’t get a thank you, hey good job, nothing. I don’t need constant praise or anything but I was the ONLY one who took the orders, picked up the lilies from the grower, made invoices, and got them ready by putting the pot covers and bows on. I was coming into work early and staying late to get this crap done. On top of handling the regular customers into the shop. It really made me rethink my job. The Easter lilies are a decent money maker every year so it’s an important project.

        1. Everything Bagel*

          Your boss is non-confrontational, but he sure doesn’t mind dumping the work of a team of people on only you. He knows you’re there handling everything he throws at you so why does he need to replace any of the others? And all the work you’re doing really is because it’s him who’s throwing it at you, not your coworkers. He’s the one who should be handling his staffing issues, not you. Your leaving is the only way he’s going to learn the hard lesson about being an effective manager and business owner.

      2. PollyQ*

        Or to fix the issues in the business right now so they wouldn’t be screwed if any employee left. I agree with the two weeks notice and do not feel guilty!

    6. AcademicAnonymous*

      My job experience is in higher ed but I’ve had a very similar experience: a boss who wouldn’t make anyone do their job and just kept asking me to do more and more! In the time between I started looking for a new job and the time I submitted my notice (about 6 months), I worked on creating documentation and paper trails for all of the different things I did. It was extra work since I was still doing all my regular stuff plus writing up manuals/guides for all of it, but, it made me feel much better when it came time to actually leave. I don’t know if anyone actually used the manuals/guides I created, but I had done what I could do to make the transition smooth. In the work setting you describe, text manuals/guides may not the best option; maybe a series of narrated videos might be better. But the more you can document (by whatever media) what you do, the easier it is to leave with a clear conscience when you find a new/better opportunity.

      1. Greenhouse Lackey*

        I’ve thought about that but the pettiness in me just wants to leave them in the dust. I’ve made guides of sorts for when I’m not at work but they aren’t always followed and they’ll call me to ask questions but I don’t answer.

        The two main coworkers who cause so many issues have been there 11 and 17 years respectively so they aren’t new.

        1. AcademicAnonymous*

          Then find yourself a new job and don’t look back! :-) Some people have to be left to suffer the consequences of their own actions. If the boss hasn’t changed yet, they probably won’t and you can’t make them.

    7. Geek5508*

      your first loyalty should be to yourself. Start job hunting, give notice when you land one, and walk away from this trainwreck…

    8. Gracely*

      Give them two weeks. If you want to be kind, write out how you do certain procedures so that you can hand it off to people when you leave–but it’s not on you to do that unless you want to. I would, if only because if they try to call you after you leave to get help, you can tell them “it’s in the procedures guide I left.”

      You said you wanted to stay long term. You’ve been there for five years–that’s long term enough, especially for a job that sounds like it’s turning into a dumpster fire.

      They will either figure it out, or they didn’t need to be running a business in the first place. Either way, it is not your problem once you leave.

    9. RagingADHD*

      To avoid personal guilt, the best you can do for them is thoroughly document how to do everything the right way. You could ask for a plan to cross-train your coworkers “in case anything should happen to you,” but given your description it is unlikely that management or your coworkers will cooperate with that.

      Once you’ve written everything down including workflows, passwords, vendor contacts, etc, make sure your workspace is tidy and organized, and the files are all where they should be, clearly labeled. Take that 4-6 months to ensure you don’t leave an indecipherable mess behind. None of this is absolutely required, but you sound like the kind of person who will feel better knowing you left with clean hands.

      Then give two weeks notice and hand the manual to your boss.

      They want you to compensate for their bad business practices, but you cannot. That is part of their dysfunction. As long as you leave your responsibilities in good shape, your conscience is clear.

    10. Mac*

      Given that everyone seems to get away with whatever they want and that your boss seems generally happy with you taking on more and more responsibilities, I feel like before you give up entirely you should just present your boss with a plan to hire more help, almost as a fait accompli. Like, “here’s the ad, I’m going to place it here and here, and we can start interviews next week.” You have literally nothing to lose, because if the boss kicks up any fuss you are ready to say, “ok, then I’m sorry, I’m out!”

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I worked in a nursery that also did landscaping work for almost a decade.

      What you describe here sounds pretty normal for what I experienced. Employees stole vehicles- the owner would just go get the vehicle- 3/4 of the way across the country. People would hang out behind the buildings and do lotsa dope. I had to beg for a vehicle with brakes and I was laughed at for wanting brakes. They even sent out people out with me to “drive me” so that I would not find out how marginal the brakes were. Of course, I figured it out quickly.

      You are not the owner. I’m gonna repeat this. You are not the owner and it is not up to you to solve All That Is Wrong. It’s not even up to you to figure out how they will cope with out you. The wife sees a problem but she does nothing.

      While owning a business is a right in our country it is also a privilege. It’s not for the faint of heart, that privilege must be re-earned every. single. day. It is not up to you to protect this owner from himself. This works into good life advice too, make it a habit not to protect (adult, fully-functioning) people from their own selves.

      All you owe them is two weeks notice. At most I’d write down my passwords and hand that in. I see other people recommending that you write up procedures. I already know you probably do not have time or bandwidth. It’s not your problem to solve. They will have to figure it out, just like you did.

      The wife might be wrong about one thing. This biz could sink EVEN if you stayed there.

      I worked for an excellent nursery with a great rep. Too late I learned that all I had to do was walk into another nursery and say “I worked for John Doe” and I would be hired on the spot. Former employees were highly sought after. This great nursey had all the craziness you show here. I almost think it’s inherent in the arena because of externals- weather, supply chain, economy and so much else. We had one year where it rained every weekend for 9 weekends in a row. We all prayed the place would not lay us off because of no business due to rain.

      This is a business where you roll with the punches if you want to run a business. I remember another year fire blight (an airborne fungus? not sure now) wiped out all the fruit trees. It takes a certain kind of person to roll this much and this often. The owner in your setting is not that person. But it’s not up to you to turn him into the person he needs to be.

      It’s okay to give two weeks and just move on. Brace yourself that the owner does not even ask you why you are leaving and consider that verification that you made the right choice.

      1. Poffertjies!*

        Thank you for your advice! The randomness and truly not knowing what the day holds can be fun sometimes. But the novelty and humor has quickly worn off.

    12. Kira*

      If he won’t fire anyone, have you tried just outright saying you’ll quit if you don’t get more help? Not a raise or more time off, but an actual additional body? If you’re planning to leave anyway then I wouldn’t bother, but if additional coworkers would make things accepted then there doesn’t seem to be any harm in stating your ultimatum outright. If you think your boss is a reasonable person you could give them more notice, but if there’s any indication that they would retaliate, push you out earlier than you intended, or start acting rude or entitled then there’s no need to give more than 2 weeks.

  43. Please Remove Your Monkeys from My Circus*

    I found out recently that I’m getting my first non-intern direct report. Reviewed resumes/CLs earlier this week, and I conducted my first phone screen this morning. Years of obsessively reading this site helped so much to make me feel prepared. Thank you, Alison!

  44. Mimmy*

    Related to my post above, I am looking for feedback on an email to the woman I interviewed with yesterday withdrawing from the position. Identifying information has been redacted.

    Good morning Jane,

    Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you about the Teapot Coordinator position yesterday afternoon. I appreciate the time you took in discussing my qualifications and in sharing some of the (specific details redacted) conducted by the Office of Teapot Resources.

    While I see the benefits of working with your office, it is after careful consideration of the position and my geographic location that I must respectfully withdraw from further consideration of my candidacy. My husband and I had been considering relocation but have determined that it is not feasible at this time. Thus, I have decided to focus on opportunities closer to home or that have considerable hybrid or remote options.

    Again, I appreciate your time and interest, and wish you the best in your search for candidates.

    Respectfully,

    Mimmy

    Please be gentle! I’ve never withdrawn from candidacy before. Also, I admit that I adapted some of the verbiage from a sample thank you letter.

    1. ABCYaBye*

      Mimmy, if I received this I would reply and thank you for your candor. It would be far better to know that relocation isn’t an option for you now than to get farther into the process and find out later. What you’ve said is great.

    2. Sloanicota*

      To be honest after just one phone interview I would probably be briefer and get to the point faster, but it’s no big deal and this letter is perfectly respectful and professional! I’ve withdrawn from lots of processes. They appreciate not wasting any more time and it doesn’t preclude you from future opportunities.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        Agree — this could be tightened — I assumed that this was after an in-person interview. In addition to tightening the first paragraph as discussed below the “why” could be changed to “Unfortunately, while the position sounds like an interesting opportunity, after careful consideration I have determined that relocation is not feasible at this time. Thus, I have decided to focus on opportunities closer to home or remote options and need to withdraw my candidacy.”

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I would keep the first paragraph less detailed since that reads more like a “thank you and I’m reiterating my interest” email and if I were busy I might not get to the “I”m withdrawing” part. I would keep the first paragraph to “Thank you for taking the time to speak with me about the Teapot Coordinator position. I appreciated our conversation. Unfortunately, while . . . .”

    4. ecnaseener*

      Without having read your post above, can confirm this reads totally polite and reasonable.

    5. Mimmy*

      Thank you all for your thoughtful feedback and suggestions! I just sent the email now. I’m a little sad but I believe I made the right decision for me.

    6. RC+Rascal*

      I think it’s well done.

      A phrase I have used that you may want to borrow is “conclude my candidacy”.

      Example:

      “After thinking about the Director of Teapots role, I have decided it is not well aligned for my career and wish to conclude my candidacy. It is a terrific opportunity and I am sure you will find a great candidate. If you have any senior level opportunities in Kitchenware, please keep me in mind.”

  45. K*

    Asking on behalf of a friend. She is originally from non-English-speaking and non-French-speaking country. Recently she have moved to France to join her partner who works there. Her English is very good, by her French is somewhere between beginner and intermediate level, like, she can make small talk, go to post office or dentist, etc, but can’t participate in complex conversations. She is experienced engineer with high-demand skills, so when searching for a job, she made sure to be honest during interviews about her French language skills and only apply to places where job postings were in English and which were willing to interview her in English. All well, she went to a few rounds of interviews is three different companies, accepted an offer from one, started a job. On the first day she discovered that no one except the hiring manager is willing to speak English to her, and her knowledge of French is not sufficient to communicate with coworkers. And the hiring manager is planning to leave the company in a few weeks. She is afraid that she will be fired for not being able to do her job because she does not understand what coworkers say at meetings. Do you think she should resign after being there only a few days to avoid being fired? Or is it a hiring manager’s fault for misleading her during interview process, and therefore should she talk to him and demand to accommodate her by running meetings in English? Does anyone have any other advice for her?

    1. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I think she needs to have a conversation with that hiring manager. If it’s company policy or culture to have meetings in french then he misled her if he told her that they speak English. However, maybe there was a miscommunication and he thought that her level of French would have been stronger than it is? Either way, she needs to talk with him and explain that she cannot work in a place that does not speak English.

      Also, how very rude that no one is willing to speak English to her (if they are fluent). Like they can’t even have a conversation with her in English? I’m sorry but doesn’t that reinforce the French stereotype that French people are stuck up and snooty?
      I hope your friend can find a place that will communicate with her.

      1. K*

        Thank you! complicated company structure is also a factor, hiring manager is also is not her direct boss and works in a different office. Maybe he did not know that her immediate coworkers would be so unwilling to speak English? but decent manager would have double checked it before offering a job to a person whose resume has “French: pre-intermediate” in it.
        Yes, the stereotype that people in France are reluctant to speak English is based on facts. They not only don’t want to do it, but also their English is quite bad.

        2. Annie Moose*

          Well, yes, most people are quite bad at speaking languages that are not the language of their country. That’s to be expected.

      2. fueled by coffee*

        Completely agree that it was misleading to say that the company speaks English when that is not, in fact, the case.

        However, I speak two languages in addition to English (one fluently, one at a proficient/conversational level), and I’d be hard pressed to translate work conversations into another language, even one that I’m very comfortable in. Especially for engineers, where I imagine there’s a large amount of technical language involved and, depending on the type of engineering, mistakes can mean, like, a bridge collapsing. If this was a social issue — people were excluding her from water cooler chat and so on — I would agree that this is rude behavior from the coworkers. But in this case, I think the problem is that she was misled about the job.

        1. K*

          For this exact reason speaking French at meetings is quite weird, most of the technical documentation, professional conferences, and other job-related resources are in English (software development field). But apparently it works for this particular company so I can see why they are not willing to switch to English because of one new person.

          1. AnonForThis*

            This is actually pretty normal in my field of STEM science – international conferences and papers are in English, you need to be fluent in English to work at a postdoc level or above but people working in a non English company will use their native language when at work, unless the workplace has been specifically set up to be in English. Reading/writing technical English is very different from speaking, and using English for a few days at a conference is very different than using it 40 hours a week at work. Even in international departments, it’s common for business meetings (ie, involving support staff) to be in the local language, and scientific meetings to be in English, as the faculty and postdocs will be fluent, but the secretaries and engineers much less so.

            So I think the workplace is pretty normal, the problem is that it was misrepresented to the OP as being more English friendly than it really is.

      3. Violetta*

        It’s not stuck up or snooty, jeez.

        I’m an expat in France as well. Yeah, most people speak some English. In an engineering firm in a city they probably speak it decently. But speaking decent English and having to convert your professional, highly technical work conversations into English are two different things. Having everyone do this to accommodate one person is not realistic.

        Maybe this is a bad fit. My experience is you need at least basic french to work here, unless you’re like a highly skilled software engineer (maybe the friend is). But it’s first and foremost a her problem, not a them problem, unfortunately. She should definitely speak to the hiring manager again.

        1. Warrior Princess Xena*

          It’s not realistic, but in that case you shouldn’t be interviewing people who have ‘pre-intermediate French’ on their resume. The friend was doing her due diligence and the hiring manager dropped the ball.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      There was a similar letter here a few years ago. If you search “I don’t speak French but my job requires it” you should find it (posted on August 18, 2016). Alison’s advice was:

      1) talk to the boss about how to proceed, given that it takes more than a few months to learn French
      2) start job searching

      1. K*

        Thank you! it is comforting to know that my friend is not the only person who struggles with this.

    3. E*

      I’m not sure demanding that the hiring manager accommodate her is the best option, given that he has one foot out the door – is the issue that the coworkers don’t speak English well enough to have a conversation with her, or are they simply refusing out of principle? Are there any other people in the office that are primarily English speakers?

      1. K*

        I think it is both, their English is not great, so it is difficult (but not absolutely impossible) for them to speak it. No, all other 10 or so team members are French native speakers (or have been living in France for decades and speak the language very well).

        1. E*

          In this case, I think the odds of her convincing the remaining coworkers to conduct business primarily in English are slim so I would follow the advice in the previous letter linked above – maybe the company could transfer her to a different team where English is the standard? In any event, I would probably start job searching. What a mess, sorry to hear your friend is in this position.

    4. Kira*

      I don’t know about French labour law but the stereotype is that there’s quite a bit of worker protection. So I wouldn’t jump to quitting to avoid being fired as the first solution before I looked into what accommodations she might be legally entitled to. Here in Quebec there’s lots of government funding for French language training in and out of the workplace (I know Quebec is not France but they’re kind of like France’s wannabe little brother, so maybe they have some of the same language training support?)

      1. Violetta*

        She’s likely still in her trial period (periode d’essai can be 3m to 1y if I recall correctly) so her fear isn’t ungrounded. But I agree, if she has some basic understanding of french she should try improving it first. And I know that’s exhausting and difficult on top of starting a new job, but she’s gonna have this issue at other employers as well, unfortunately.

        1. Books and Cooks*

          Yes, I would think the first thing to do is ask if the company is willing to help her improve her French! Maybe they have some language program or are willing to start one, or pay for a tutor or Rosetta Stone or something, or even send her to one of those immersion courses where she’d spend a week or two and come back much improved. If they won’t do any of that, maybe they would at least give her a couple of hours off per week to study or attend classes on her own.

          It’s (imo) definitely worth asking before she just assumes she’ll be fired. And IME people are much more willing to work with you in your language/English, and be patient and accommodating, if you make clear that you are working on learning their language.

  46. I'm just here for the cats!*

    I don’t know if it’s because it’s summer and there are no students around or because we are not supper busy or what but I just cannot focus this week. I should be doing an online training on Indesign CC but I cannot focus. I read a little bit, do part of an exercise and then I get distracted by looking up gluten-free kinds of pasta!

    Is anyone else like this? Do you have any suggestions? I feel like a bumble bee. Just floating around to different flowers but not really doing anything. Also, this isn’t normal so its not like I have ADHD or anything.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’m with you!

      I keep looking up farm properties that I could turn into artist colonies.

      1. Cookie*

        I keep thinking about the dark, depressing fall/winter and looking at tropical vacations online, as though I had the time, money, or magical covid immunity to make something like that happen. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    2. fueled by coffee*

      This sounds like it might just be a boring training!

      You might look into the pomodoro method –> set a timer for 15 (or so) minutes, during which you work without distractions, until the timer goes off. Then take a 5 minute break for pasta recipes! Then set the timer for another 15 minutes, and so on. This helps schedule your breaks so that you still get to take them, but you also set short bursts of time during which you force yourself to concentrate and get some work done. For me, it’s psychologically much easier than sitting with large blocks of time during which I feel like I have the leeway to procrastinate until suddenly two hours have passed.

    3. RagingADHD*

      That is a great description of what an ADHD day sounds like, actually! I’m stealing it.

      Typical brains act like ADHD brains when they are:
      1) Sleep deprived or underfed
      2) Stressed
      3) Anxious or depressed
      4) Preoccupied with an important life event or waiting for important news
      5) Experiencing big changes to routine or environment, like moving
      6) Frustrated and bored by having to be somewhere or do something they would much rather not.

      So #5 could explain it, or you may have multiple things going on. Pomodoro is a good method. Also, making sure you get up and move around once an hour to give yourself a change of pace.

      1. allathian*

        I’d guess the last two. I absolutely loathe working when everyone else is on vacation, because it’s just so boring that I’d far rather be doing pretty much anything else. Especially if there isn’t enough work to do and I’m just putting in the hours and doing the nonessential stuff that’s rarely urgent but is necessary, like clearing out my email inbox.

        I’m pretty NT, but I’ve definitely had my ADHD days for each of the reasons you mention. I can deal with one at a time without too much trouble, but when I was stressed to the point of burnout, I was also anxious and sleep deprived. No wonder my executive functioning went out the window.

  47. Imaginary Number*

    What are some good options for responding to clueless, older (but not more senior), male colleagues who think it’s okay to tell women to smile when passing them in the hallway? It happened to me yesterday and I just said “no” but I’m trying to think 0f a better response that doesn’t take too much mental energy but gets the point across.

    1. WhimsicalWhale*

      I would recommend a “do you ever tell that to your male colleagues? No? Then don’t do it to your female colleagues either.” Of course, some men would get defensive so you need to play a little nicer, but it shouldn’t take too much more than that if he’s actually clueless but well meaning.

      1. Nesprin*

        Slightly more conciliatory version of this:
        “Oh, I’m not sure if you know this, but a lot of people these days think that asking women to smile is sexist”
        and followup if “but I’m not sexist” rears its ugly head:
        “That’s why I brought it up- I’m sure you wouldn’t want to be thought of as sexist”

        1. Kira*

          You could also head it off by saying “I’m sure you don’t mean it this way, but it’s pretty well-documented that women are disproportionately asked to smile and most people find that sexist.”

    2. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

      My standard reply is “I am not decor.”

    4. Charlotte Lucas*

      “Do something amusing, then maybe.”

      Actually, a perplexed look or just “No” seem like appropriate responses, but you could also tell your manager that these guys need some coaching on contemporary office standards.

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      My go to is to look confused and say “why?” I love the silence and panicked look while the person tries to come up with something to say that is not condescending or outright sexist.

    6. Gnome*

      “why – Did you say something amusing?”

      If you want to put them on the spot add, “I must have missed it, but I’m ready now.” And look at them expectantly.

    7. PollyQ*

      I like “No” just fine, but here’s another option: “I would never dream of telling you what to do with your face, and I hope you can extend me the same basic courtesy” or “Why do you think it’s acceptable to say that to me?”

    8. Cheezmouser*

      Return awkward to sender: “You should smile more too!” (with a big fake smile to prove your point)

    10. Dark Macadamia*

      I think just “no” or “no thanks” is the simplest option, they won’t “learn” from it but they are conscious adult humans in the year 2022 so the fact they haven’t figured it out yet isn’t encouraging lol. “Why?” or “excuse me?” puts them on the spot for a smidge of self reflection without additional effort on your part. I always like the idea of doing a really crazed fake smile (think like a Nic Cage meme lol) but wouldn’t have the guts to actually do it

    11. Clisby*

      When my daughter was younger, even in elementary school, she typically refused to smile for school photos. So I have great photos of her looking really serious. Later, when I commented on these (she was in high school by then) she said, “If you smile when people tell you to, you’re just a pleaser.”

      So I guess you could say, brightly, “Oh, no, I’m not a pleaser!”

    13. mreasy*

      A “why?” or just a “wow.” while moving on can be effective. Though I would probably be less diplomatic and say “are you kidding me?” Also my word, men! It’s 2022. So sorry you’re dealing with this.

    1. Imaginary Number*

      Have you set up an awesome workspace at home that you’re excited to use? New plant? New office accessories? How about some fun string lights?

    2. calvin blick*

      Just remember this sort of thing is never as bad as you think it will be. Also, your new manager and team are also probably a little worried too, since they’re making the decision to invest in you and need you to do well in your role.

      Starting a new job remotely is a little weird. I started one this spring and the biggest disconcerting aspect was that I wasn’t super busy in the beginning, so I just had to…sit there? It was hard to go do something else because I didn’t know the rhythms of the job and when I might have to do something.

      One thing that helped me was getting some “worry beads” to play with when I was on calls for an outlet for the stress. Different people will have different things that help, whether it’s a new workspace, a little treat at lunch (even just sparkling water or something), or a call with a friend/significant other.

      I was extremely anxious to start my new job, but four months later I am feeling much better.

  49. Bananarama dingdong*

    Our office has always been a place where we work quietly, are nice and friendly to each other, occasionally hang out outside of work, but aren’t bffs. Most of us are introverts. My new direct report, an extreme extrovert, apparently had different views of what an office should be like, and keeps making comments about how nobody talks, nobody chats, no one laughs at her jokes. It’s not like we never talk about our lives outside of work, but (for example) I know more about her sex life than I do about my friends, and everything I know is completely against my will; the rest of us talk about things like dogs, what we’re reading, the weather. She chats incessantly at me, and doesn’t pick up on nonverbal cues (my putting on headphones, not replying if she’s IM-ing me about non-work topics, appearing disengaged in conversations).

    Any advice for helping her realize what our office professional norms are? Related, any scripts for shutting down workplace inappropriate conversations?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      These letters from the archives probably have scripts that can help in your situation:

      “my coworker won’t stop talking to me” from April 30, 2014
      “my chatty coworker won’t stop talking to me and panics when managers see us talking” from January 30, 2017
      “my coworker never stops talking — and I mean NEVER” from June 19, 2018

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You may have to do some toddler-management techniques. When toddlers want attention they’re incessant until they get it, and completely notice if you’re not all-in.

      So redirecting your report may be in order — by offering some all-in interaction that has boundaries — so “Jane — I’m working right now, but when I finish this I’ll probably want a coffee. I’ll grab you when I’m going into the breakroom and we can chat while it brews.” Then, just like with a toddler, you have to follow through or they keep trying to get your attention.

      You’ll need to model the right time/right place behavior by actually doing it.

      And name it when you set a boundary. “Wow, let’s keep the sex life conversations to after hours, ok?” and then pivot with “But what was the name of the restaurant you went to? Was it any good? — or “Gotta get back to the TPS reports now.”

    3. WellRed*

      You need to have an actual conversation not just rely on nonverbal cues. I’d be tempted to say “ I know more about your sex life than friends, it’s never appropriate in the workplace” for starters.

    4. Attractive Nuisance*

      When she makes comments about how nobody talks or chats, give a positive response! Like “Yes, I’m glad we’re a quiet office.” Or “You’re right, I like to focus on work when I’m at work.” Show her that this is something you all like about the office, not something she should “fix.”

      1. Loulou*

        But this doesn’t sound accurate! It sounds like people DO chat, just not about such personal things as OP’s direct report.

        Fwiw, I don’t think most people (even introverts) would look positively on an office where no one ever talks or chats about anything besides work. Having a problem with that culture would be very normal and human.

    5. Gnome*

      Sounds like she is looking for work to be a social outlet. I get it. I’m an introvert, but a few years into the pandemic and I’m struggling with it.

      That said, if she’s saying stuff you don’t want to hear be it sex or politics or whatever, you can always say, “I don’t like to talk about (topic) at work. Thanks for understanding.” And change the topic.

      I had a boss who was all Team Togetherness and stuff and I shut it down hard by going above his head and saying it was getting in the way of my work… And it was shut down pretty fast. But you’ve got to know your grandboss to know if that will work.

    6. Dark Macadamia*

      Nonverbal cues would be fine for a coworker, but if she’s your direct report that’s a pretty passive way to manage something you have standing to be direct about.

      “You’ve mentioned this a lot. I’ve always found our office very warm and friendly but you’re right that the norm here is quieter and less chatty than some offices. Most of us enjoy it that way but I hope you’re able to feel comfortable here even if it’s not as social as you’d hoped.” Maybe give some pointers on picking up on people’s cues/reading the room.

      You’ll need to be extra clear about the sex talk since allowing it in the past has probably given her the impression it’s okay (it’s understandable you’d be taken aback but like … she’s telling her boss about her sex life, she does not have good judgment about this lol). Either if it comes up in the course of the rest of this conversation or if she starts over sharing again, something like “I should have said this before but it’s really not appropriate to discuss this type of thing in the workplace.”

    7. Kira*

      > Any advice for helping her realize what our office professional norms are?

      If she’s your subordinate, you have the responsibility for holding her to professional norms and explicitly explaining when she’s not meeting them. Conversation about her sex life is not work-appropriate and you should have shut that down immediately. Saying she hasn’t picked up on nonverbal cues and looking for other suggestions is like saying “I’ve tried nothing and I’m all out of ideas.” You’re her boss — talk to her directly!

  50. NeedMyMeds*

    So, I turned 26 and had to switch from my parents’ insurance plan to my employer insurance. I’ve been hesitant to change because I’ve got a somewhat complex condition with a pretty expensive medication keeping it under control. Well, the worst happened and it’s been 3 weeks and I still haven’t gotten my meds. Some sort of issue in communication between the insurance company, the drug manufacturer, and the pharmacy (had to switch pharmacies along with insurance, since they’ve got their own specialty pharmacy). I’ve been having to take 4-8 hours of sick leave a week the past two weeks because I’m Experiencing Symptoms, which is obviously not long-term sustainable. I mentioned this to my boss to explain the absences, and he said it might be worth checking to see if HR can do anything. I somehow doubt it, but I wouldn’t want to miss an opportunity if they could. What do ya’ll think?

    1. I'm just here for the cats!*

      Yes mention it to HR. If nothing else they can help make accommodations. But I think a good HR person would want to know if there are issues with the insurance. THey may have contacts that can speed things up.

      Did you get a new doctor too? Could either your old doctor or the new one help? When I was in highschool i was diagnosed with a chronic condition and the state Medicaid program i was on refused to cover my life-saving medication. It took the doctor calling and speaking to the insurance that made it so they would cover the meds.

    2. JanetM*

      Your company may or may not have an insurance coordinator, who may or may not be in HR (ours is in the Treasurer’s Office, for some reason).

    3. Littorally*

      Talking to HR is a good idea. They will likely have someone with a title like “benefits specialist” or similar whose job it is to deal with stuff like health insurance. They will likely be able to push on the insurer, and if the specialty pharmacy isn’t capable of dealing with the medication, may be able to get you authorization to continue using your old pharmacy.

      1. mreasy*

        Yes, I had issues with treatment being denied by insurance and the rep helped get it through. They should absolutely be able to help with this. Also – if it’s not a scheduled drug – could you see if the pharmacist will give you a few days’ worth to tide you over? This is very commonly done, and they just take them out of the scrip when it comes in.

    4. Gracely*

      Check with absolutely everyone you can. My spouse had a similar issue (our insurance changed, and he has very expensive meds that of course were problematic with a “specialty” pharmacy), and it took months to work out. You will probably have to be a squeaky wheel to get what you need, but your HR should be able to help you, or at least point you in the right direction. Also contact your prescribing doctor, and explain what’s going on to them, because often they can just redo paperwork and get the situation fixed.

    5. Agile Phalanges*

      Meanwhile, please contact your doctor–they can probably give you medication samples that they get from the drug reps, to tide you over. I’ve done this multiple times, because I’m on some medications that insurance doesn’t like to have to pay for. They may also be able to get you some discount cards, where the manufacturer foots some of the bill (the markup that was their profit to begin with).

    6. Policy Wonk*

      I’m assuming your new insurance uses a mail away pharmacy? I had a similar issue – see if your insurance will cover your doctor calling in a short term prescription to a local pharmacy. They were able to do an urgent use prescription for me (seems to me it was a week’s worth – might have been more) while waiting for the real one to be processed.

    7. just another queer reader*

      Yes, I recommend reaching out to your company’s benefits person!

      I had an issue getting reimbursed for COVID tests and my company’s benefits person was very helpful; they have the ear of the insurance people.

      Best of luck – hoping for a swift resolution for you.

  51. Conundrum*

    I need some advice (let it go or say something, if I’m saying something how can/should I say it?). I was on an interview panel yesterday as we are looking for a new secretary (school office). Before interviews began, my administrator said he likes to remember to “hire the smile, we can teach the technical skills.” I know what he MEANS is we need someone with strong people skills, as this person will be working with admin, staff, and parents. But it feels very gendered. In public schools there is very much still more men in admin, more women as teachers, admin support, and para educator roles. In the moment, I only added that we should more be looking for someone who has strong problem-solving skills and the ability to think quickly on their feet (to deal with typical daily work constantly interrupted by upset parents, being short staffed in classrooms, etc). Should I say more (1:1 with my administrator) about perhaps rephrasing what we are looking for? How icky “hire the smile” sounds to women- even if he isn’t saying it to the canidates themselves? We have a third candidate to interview next week, and probably a round of second interviews so the process isn’t over yet. I’m not sure I’d put so much mental energy into whether or not I say something, but there is an emerging trend I’m starting to notice.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      “I’m know you mean ‘hire the smile’ to mean strong personal skills and experience with deescalating upset parents, but I’m worried anyone who overhears that phrase might think you mean we should hire by appearance rather than skills”

      Go to them with the assumption that of course they didn’t mean to make sexist phrase (even though they maybe did) and treat it as a “we”, ie we don’t want others to get the wrong impression of you. Because then they can either be like oh yeah lets fix it or they have the uncomfortable position of arguing yes I am meaning it sexist. (And honestly, resting B face shuts down upset parents more than a smile usually anyway)

    2. ecnaseener*

      If you have a decent relationship with him, I think you could frame it as “You know, I think when people hear ‘hire the smile’ they think you mean hiring based on looks! I know you mean people skills and not literally a pretty smile, but it does sound a little strange.”

    3. AwesomeRosenGilMom*

      I definitely find ‘hire the smile’ objectionable and gendered – just as the earlier post on ‘bubbly personality’. The desirable qualities could be customer-focused, friendly, warm, engaging, enthusiastic, maybe even pleasant demeanor. Please say something.

  52. Beka Cooper*

    Does anyone have any experience with repetitive stress injuries like tendinitis, tennis/mouse elbow, etc.? I do data entry and have ongoing issues with my wrists and arms in general. Initially, my first injury was due to knitting, and was in my thumb on my left hand. After a few years of adjustments and learning to pay more attention to initial signs of soreness or pain, I got that under control, but now I’m having more issues with my right hand, my mouse hand. I have barely been knitting so I know that’s not causing it, it’s definitely the repetitive mouse movements from work.

    When I first went to the doctor for my left hand and knitting injury, I felt like I didn’t get taken seriously at all. I got referred to physical therapy, but the first doctor who referred me just seemed to not think it was as big of a deal as it was for me. And in the end, I felt like I mostly learned to manage it on my own. For my right hand, though, I feel like it’s going to be a waaaay bigger deal if I have permanent issues with pain. I’m a writer and knitter, and of course my day job is data entry. I might be ready to approach my doctor about it again (I have a new doctor), but I just worry that they are just going to tell me all the stuff I already know. What I really wish I could get was a note to not work for a few weeks, so I can rest my hand! It seems so obvious that I need to rest it, but work is busy, two people are out on family leave, and so there’s more constant clicking and movement than ever.

    My current workaround is that I’ve practiced using my left hand for the mouse. It’s just frustrating because it’s still slower than using my dominant hand, and keyboard shortcuts are all on the left side so it’s awkward using one hand for ALL the things.

    I guess I’m just curious about anyone else’s experience with this. Do people ever take short term disability for something like this? Is it weird to worry that my workplace might see it as a liability, like I couldn’t continue doing my job if I have issues with my hands and using a computer all day? I’m in a union at a university so I’m not super worried about that, but the thought does cross my mind. Also…I find it extremely frustrating that I need to do this full time job that ruins my hands and arms when I’d really rather be doing my hobbies that require the use of my hands. Argh!

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I can’t speak to disability or whatnot, but advice incoming, feel free to skip if you don’t want it :)

      As a knitter/crocheter who spends a ton of time typing/data entering, I would suggest looking at a Logitech M25 trackball – I put off switching to a trackball for ages because I didn’t want to have to retrain my fingers to manage the ball and click buttons with my thumb or whatever, but the Logitech trackball has the ball under your thumb and the mouse buttons are under your right first two fingers just like with a right-handed mouse, and the adjustment was really fast, like just a couple of hours. Once you get it situated in a comfortable position, you don’t have to move your wrist anymore and that is SUCH a huge help for repetitive strain. I’ve been using Logitech trackballs for probably eight years now and I’m never going back to a regular mouse. (I started with the M25 which is the most basic version, now I’m up to a MX Ergo which has a few more bells and whistles.)

      1. Beka Cooper*

        I bought a trackball mouse this winter when I was having issues with my right hand, I know the brand is Logitech, I don’t know for sure which model it is. I’ll have to try it again. At the time, my thumb was the most painful, so that mouse didn’t seem to be a solution, but right now my issue is more with my elbow and my ring and pinky fingers, so I will have to give it a try again :)

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Ditto from me. Trackball mouse saved my wrists. At work I have a wireless mouse. Since my desk is in an L shape, I can use the wireless mouse with my right hand on one part of the L while my computer and keyboard are in the corner of the L. This means my elbow is up on the desk if I am using my mouse. What a difference to have my arm supported like this.
        It took maybe a few hours to get used to the ball. It was easy to change over.
        If it doesn’t roll smoothly just take it out of its holder and wipe it with hydrogen peroxide and dry it.
        I also use my aches to remind me to eat raw veggies. If I remember to eat a salad every day the pain goes way down.

    2. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      I like your username! I used to have tendinitis in my right wrist and yeah, the “just rest it” advice is so frustrating. Sure, as a university student I’ll totally be able to just not write, type, or play instruments for several weeks!

      Would a touch screen possibly be helpful? I have an Acer brand Chromebook which has a touch screen in addition to the keyboard and mouse – it might be a different enough motion that it could take some stress off your hands. Of course I don’t know if it’s actually feasible for your job but maybe something to look into.

      1. Beka Cooper*

        Thanks! The whole Beka Cooper series was one I listened to as an audiobook when I first got this data entry job and needed something to help me stay focused on the monotonous parts, haha. Now I re-listen to it every year or so.

        Unfortunately a touch screen wouldn’t work so well with the software we have, and I have to frequently switch/look between three different softwares on two monitors, otherwise my work is agonizingly slow going between windows all the time, haha.

    3. fueled by coffee*

      If these injuries are carpal-tunnel adjacent, they make pads that you can rest your wrists on while working on a computer so that you aren’t holding them in the same (injury-inducing) position all day.

      Also, depending on what you need the computer for, would something like dictation software be an accommodation that you could ask for? If you have to do large amounts of typing, being able to use voice-to-text to do the bulk of it and then just editing for typos might spare some of the stress on your hands.

      1. Beka Cooper*

        I feel like my setup is pretty ergnomic–when my previous issue was bad, I had my workspace evaluated by the person on campus who does that kind of stuff. That was awhile ago and maybe I could have her check it over again. I’m also half at home and half at work, so my setup is slightly different in both places!

        My work is a lot of clicking and then going back and forth between typing short bits of text like names. Lots of copy/paste but then also lots of clicking around through a couple different software systems. So unfortunately it’s mainly the mouse thing. I do minimize typing by having a sticky note full of things I often need to type.

    4. Mill Miker*

      Are you using an ergonomic keyboard, and if so, is it actually comfortable to type on? I know personally the worst my right wrist/hand ever felt was when I was using an ergonomic keyboard for work that had me bouncing between the backspace/plus/equals/brackets in the top right of the keyboard, and the spacebar. My left hand was busy with keyboard shortcuts, so I was spending the whole day with my pinky and thumb spread as far as possible. Switching to a non-ergonomic keyboard actually worked better for the type of typing I was doing.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I am prone to tendonitis in various joints and have learned to take it seriously. A good home care protocol can make the difference between knocking this in a month or suffering with it for years.

      1) The inflammation is a self-perpetuating cycle because the swelling causes even more irritation. If you can take NSAIDs, you need to keep them in your system for 30 days. Do not wait to take them until it hurts. Take them on a schedule to give the inflammation time to heal. After that, take them as needed.

      2) Get a wrist brace from the pharmacy and wear it religiously whenever you do the aggravating activity. This will help you stop aggravating it, and help teach you muscle memory for the correct movement. If it’s aching all the time, you can sleep in the brace.

      3) Change up your tools and environment to support healthy movement, and take frequent breaks to switch activities.

      4) There are lots of real physical therapists who have blogs or YouTube channels to address common pains and strains. “Bob and Brad” have a good, sensible channel. Find a short stretching or exercise routine that you can do daily. A 3-5 minute session 3-5 times a day is usually better than a long routine.

      5) Ice the joint for anywhere from 10-30 minutes (off and on so you don’t freeze the skin) twice a day. So you might do it first thing in the morning and before bed at night.

      Being aggressive like this will help you recover from the active flareup faster. Long term, it’s changing your work position, tools, and habits, that will keep it from coming back.

    6. PollyQ*

      I’ve known people who were permanently disabled by RSIs that they didn’t treat quickly enough, so my first recommendation is that go to your doctor and address it fairly aggressively with her. She’ll probably suggest other things before a short-term disability leave, but if your doctor thinks you need it, well, that’s what STD is for.

      Most reasonable employers are happy to provide accomodations for this kind of thing because they’re vastly cheaper than losing the employee for any length of time, so again, please be assertive in asking for what you need. My sister had RSI issues which were ultimately dealt with via physical therapy, specialty equipment, and ultimately minor surgery in one joint of one finger. I hope your doctor can find a good solution to your issues, so good luck!

      1. Beka Cooper*

        Thank you, this is the thing I’m most afraid of! While reading about it, one article mentioned that they can get progressively worse, which fits with my experience with both hands/wrists–I would notice some soreness every once in awhile over a year or so, it would eventually go away and I’d go back to ignoring it, and then after several repetitions of that cycle I’d get an even worse pain that would not go away as easily as before! In the past, we’ve had lots of busy times interspersed by lulls in work, and that helped, but unfortunately with losing staff due to COVID retirements and then having people on leave, the work has been a lot more constant during what used to be a veeery slow summertime for me.

        Thanks for the recommendation, I agree I probably need to be more assertive with my doctor about it.

    7. Gracely*

      You might have to keep trying different doctors until you get one that takes you seriously. It might help to pre-emptively explain how long you’ve been dealing with it and what you’ve already tried so they’re less dismissive. And if they’re not helpful, try someone who specializes in carpal tunnel/RSI.

      You might consider getting a wrist brace–both I and a coworker have them for when our hands/arms are starting to feel overworked from too much computer/mouse use. And as others have said, make sure you’ve got wrist pads for your keyboard and for your mouse.

      1. Beka Cooper*

        Thanks! I think I will have to do that and really be persistent if I still run into issues. The person I saw originally was the doctor at my clinic who supposedly specializes more in that kind of stuff so yeah, it was disappointing to say the least. It didn’t help that the couple times I went, it happened to be lower pain days!

        1. Mac*

          To help mitigate the problem of maybe your doctor visit falls on a lower pain day, you can start keeping a very basic log/journal of your symptoms (pain level, estimated amount of time you felt that that day, activities/sleep that it interfered with, if you took pain medication and how much, and whether there was any numbness/tingling/weakness/clumsiness in the affected hand). This hopefully will make you feel more empowered to advocate for yourself with the doctor (never easy, believe me, I know), and also make them stop and take you more seriously when they see the problem laid out in black and white.

    8. Two Mice*

      I’m a librarian who works in front of the computer all day long, and I used to only have hobbies in which I needed to use my arms/ hands (gaming, needlework). I got diagnosed with tendinitis on both my arms a year after I started my ‘ life job ‘ at 23 y.o. and was really stressed by people and doctors telling me to rest… Like. I just can’t rest at work and take longbreaks whenever I want. My doctor gave me a 3 weeks note to stay out of work and anti-inflamatory meds, but as soon as I went back to work, it just started to hurt again.

      Tried everything: PT, acupuncture, ergotherapy, wrist and arm braces. It got pretty expensive even if it was paid almost entirely by my workplace since the injury came from it. I have a wireless side mouse on the right side (helps a tiny bit), and like you I use my left hand to switch it up (I keep a second mouse on the left). The only things that truly helped : started working out after work (just a quick 5-10 minutes, lifting small weights doing arms exercises). It seems like my muscles can’t help but tense up even when I’m not typing, but the effort makes them loosen up after.

      Also, since I was avoiding my right hand/wrist so much, I lost a lot of strenght and flexibility in my wrist. It hurt even when opening the door or doing basing chores. Started yoga, it was really hard at first, I couldn’t hold my weigh even in tabletop without it hurting, but it did a great job at fixing my problem.

      Hope you’ll find a way to manage the pain at least!

    9. Free Meerkats*

      RSI is a valid workman’s comp claim. You might pursue that as a way to get treatment from doctors who understand it and how to properly treat it.

    10. Rara Avis*

      I’m right-handed but taught myself to mouse with the left. I got a trackball mouse during Covid (when I was on the computer much more than normal) and it was hard to learn how to use it — I’m still not great at accurate clicking — but I feel like there are brain advantages to increasing my left -hand dexterity.

    11. Hillary*

      I recommend PT if you can swing it. Depending on your insurance, you may be able to refer yourself to physical therapy for initial treatment. If you need a referral (the practice I go to requires a referral for treatment series over 90 days) tell the doctor you want a referral to learn to manage it better.

      It can be hard to find a pt you like and trust, but it’s 100% worth it. I’ve gone for my hands/wrists, neck, face (yes, really), and once literally one session where I asked her to teach me how to not get gamers thumb after I tweaked my right thumb pulling my suitcase.

      Also, ask for an ergonomic assessment. Desk height, the right chair, and good equipment can all contribute. Your elbows should be at 90 degrees when you’re typing, wrists straight/neutral, and fingers loose.

    12. BBB the Cabinet Builder*

      I had something similar with early non-ergonomic setups in the 80’s, but I had a forward thinking doctor who didn’t want to do surgery if it wasn’t necessary. Try this for a month to see if it helps: get a well padded wrist brace – specifically for a right wrist – and wear it at night. You don’t have to wear it at all during the day. After that time you’ll be able to tell if it’s helping.
      I hope you get the same relief I did. I also second the use of a regularly scheduled NSAID for a month (with your doctor’s approval).

    13. Invisible today*

      Not sure if you have a windoze or mac setup, but keyboard shortcuts are your friend. For example, in many (not all) windows programs, ctrl-c will let you copy, ctrl-v will paste, ctrl-a highlights all, etc. etc. You can even create uour own shortcuts or automate steps using macros in many programs for common steps.

    14. GreyNerdShark*

      late as usual but never mind…
      As you found with the knitting you have to work out what is causing it.

      I went for a trackball but that still didn’t help because it wasn’t the mouse. It was poor form at my sport. Once I found out what it was I stopped doing that, and gradually it got better. But I wasn’t able to use that arm for months.

      Then years later it was back! I couldn’t work out what the problem was this time but the important thing was focusing on how I was moving my hand and arm. Mine was serious “golfers elbow” which is the inside of the elbow where tendoms and muscles attach. I worked out what motions were the worst and which muscles were involved. Then I did my best to build up my arm muscles evenly. I did a lot of gym work focusing on holding my hands and arms exactly in line, so no canting the elbow, no twisting the wrist. Was hard to get exercises that didn’t hurt but I worked with a personal trainer and she helped. Knowing what alignment to keep my hands and arms in was the key for me. I built up the muscles evenly and now I can do all sorts of things without it hurting. But I am still very careful with alignment because it can still twinge if I am not. Things like how I hold my thumb when gripping a bar for example. Paying strict attention when picking things up or doing any exercises to keep wrist and elbow aligned.

    15. Silence*

      Can you ask for an extra monitor so there is less switching
      Do you have ergonomic mouse, keyboard that suit you? I like the sideways mouse
      Mouse pad with wrist support
      Compression gloves
      How often do you pause and streatch
      Maybe ask for a referral to an occupational therapist instead of or in addition to a physical therapist

  53. Imaginary Number*

    My (she/her) workplace has a fairly loose dress code for day-to-day work. For me, that typically consists of jeans and a blouse or polo shirt but there’s a pretty wide range in my office. Some folks going even more casual than that and some stick to full business attire.

    I started wearing tennis shoes instead of dress shoes a couple years ago when I sprained my ankle badly and never really went back. That’s also fairly common, especially if the shoes aren’t bright running-shoe colors.

    I want to go back to dressier shoes. I’m looking for a low/no heel, real leather, laced low-cut boot or oxford. Does anyone have any suggestions on nice-quality brands? I don’t mind spending more for something that will last me several years with proper leather care. I have a pair of Frye boots that I usually wear when I need to wear a suit, but they don’t have very grippy soles and I have to walk a lot at work.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I have a pair of Keens brand waterproof faux leather black shoes that I love. Laces like a sneaker but looks more formal. Nonslip and comfy too!

    2. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

      Cole Haan makes fantastic oxfords in a range of colors/styles and they’re super comfortable. They usually have a mega-sale in August (think $210 shoes for $60).

    3. urguncle*

      Dr Martens are my go-to for professional shoes, although I admit that my fashion choices trend more towards the tomboy side. That said, the oxfords look good with wide-leg trousers, they’re exceptionally comfortable and the lined chelsea boots have kept my feet exceptionally dry and warm despite New England winters and springs. I also have a pair of the oxblood chelsea boots that are not lined but still look and feel amazing. Honestly, one of the worst things about summer is I don’t get to wear my Docs! They are so comfortable once you get through that first month of breaking them in. Seriously, if you live in a colder climate, I can’t recommend the faux fur-lined boots enough. Between my wife and I, we have three pairs of just the lined boots.

    4. Lyudie*

      I love Clarks for this sort of thing. They have a variety of styles and are very comfortable. I spent two weeks walking in Europe in a pair of their loafers and had no issues.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        I’m running into the same issue with Clarks as everywhere else. Anything leather lace-up for women is either a super-tall boot or a tennis shoe. All of their boots are “booties” and they don’t have anything Oxford-style.

        1. Lyudie*

          Aw darn. I favor slip ons (and haven’t been shoe shopping in ages) so I didn’t realize they didn’t do that sort of thing :( A friend of mine has some Ahnus she loves but they’ve been bought by Teva and there don’t seem to be many of those styles available currently.

        2. Never Nicky*

          They have a style called Hamble which is an Oxford brogue (well, in the UK they do) and comes in colours.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      There is a store in the Twin Cities, Schuler Shoes, that specializes in comfortable shoes, many of which are dressy/work appropriate. If you check out their website, you can get a lot of ideas (I buy all of my shoes there due to a foot condition).

    7. FashionablyEvil*

      Slightly unorthodox, but if you wear a larger shoe size (like a 9 or above), you can find good options in the men’s section. I have a pair of Oxfords from Allen Edmonds that are more decorative (they have pinking and broguing).

    8. Irish Teacher*

      Gabor are my go-to for work shoes. There are a pair I really want actually, but they currently only have them in 3 and 3 and a half. They are more winter style so hoping they’ll get more in next month.

    10. mreasy*

      Campers has some great ones and regular sales. Also often can be found on Poshmark second hand.

    11. Ismis*

      I’m not sure where you’re based but some shoe repair shops offer a “topy” option – adding a rubber sole to the bottom of your shoes. I haven’t had it done in a while but it’s supposed to help with grip.

    12. Dragonfly7*

      I really like my Oxfords from Tomboy Toes, and, after a clumsy stumble, learned the soles can be repaired by a local cobbler. You might want something grippier added to the soles, though.

  54. asking for more feedback when it's likely negative*

    I work at a small company that’s, frankly, not at all organized in a managerial capacity. They company is also kind of overloaded, so leadership doesn’t really have the time to be reflective and proactive. They’re very reactive– everything’s great until it’s a dumpster fire.

    I haven’t been doing well at work in a lot of ways. I’ve been struggling with mental health stuff, so I’m slow and making some careless errors. They’re always caught before they have an adverse impact on the client, but they are errors I really should be catching myself. My manager has not brought this up to me, but he’s wildly overloaded and I think a bit conflict-averse. My company does not seem to have solid processes about discipline and letting people go (in the year since I’ve started, quite a few people are gone suddenly with no explanation. Some may have left of their own volition, but at least a few didn’t and it’s impossible to know.). This does not help my anxiety at all. I don’t want to sound needy, but I’d really want to have my manager weigh in on my performance, even if it’s negative. I can work with negative feedback! But being in a vortex of not knowing how I’m doing makes me miserable.

    1. PollyQ*

      A couple suggestions:

      1) Send your boss an email requesting a sit-down meeting to get feedback. It’s possible he’ll blow you off, but you may actually get what you want. I wouldn’t proactively bring up your mental health issues with your boss, though. There’s still too much stigma around it, and this doesn’t seem like a company that always works in good faith.
      2) If your work is even somewhat repetitive, try creating checklists/project templates that you can follow while you’re working. They can really help with those “careless” errors.
      3) You don’t specifically say that you’re getting medical help for the mental health stuff. If you aren’t, try to find someone. I know how hard it is to find a therapist right now, but you deserve to get help. If you are seeing someone, let them know that you’re struggling with work, and they may be able to give you a little more intensive help.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      After working in a chaotic environment I grew to understand the the chaos feeds any anxiety one might have.
      My thought is to try to look at a bigger picture. What if the manager does not help you? Or what if the manager does say something but it’s not of much help?

      Even with feedback you are still in the same chaotic place. That has not changed. The only way my nerves calmed down was by leaving. Life got better.

  55. Junior Dev*

    So, I’m back to looking for a tech job after nearly a year out of work. Here’s what I’ve been saying in interviews to explain the situation—is there a better way I could frame any of this? I don’t want to work anywhere that would judge me for having health issues but I also know that how you present stuff matters.

    “I worked for 2.5 years at BigCorp and felt it was time for a change, so I took a job at Startup. However, I started having health problems about 6 months in. I asked to take unpaid medical leave but they said as a small startup they couldn’t do that, and so I tried to keep working but couldn’t keep up due to my health, and was let go. I then took some time to focus on my health and I’m doing much better now, and ready to work again.”

    (I don’t say this explicitly in interviews but basically, after months of trying various things I got diagnosed with sleep apnea, and now am treating it with a dental appliance. So it’s not really accurate to say I’m “cured,” I have a chronic illness that I am managing now. All that is more than interviews need to know but it might be relevant to how I present this.)

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I think the way you have it framed it good. You can say “doing much better now” as your currently have it or “resolved” if you want to. (Not “resolved” as in “cured” but “resolved” as in “no longer affecting my performance at work.”)

      If you’re asked specifically about leaving Startup or your time not working, I would frame it as “I was dealing with some health issues that unfortunately affected my performance at Startup and I was let go from that role. I then took some time to focus on my health and I’m doing much better now, and ready to work again.”

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I think this TMI — I would just say “Shortly after starting at StartUp I developed a medical condition and had to leave that job. The health issue is resolved and I am ready to work again.” The health issue IS resolved since you now have a diagnosis and treatment that is working.

        1. PollyQ*

          Yes, and I wouldn’t say that because it’ll be a mismatch when they call to confirm your employment there.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      Suggested script based on both the original and Hlao-roo’s: “I worked for 2.5 years at BigCorp and felt it was time for a change, so I took a job at Startup. However, I started having health problems about 6 months in, and Startup was unable to accommodate my temporary needs in a way larger, more established companies would have been able to. I took some time to focus on my health and am excited to work on [stuff relevant to the position] now that the health issue is resolved.”

  56. AnonForThis*

    Hi, I’m a US IP attorney who posted about my spouse potentially being transferred to the London area in about a year to two years. I am writing to follow up (particularly with some helpful comments from Kate From Scotland) because I think I implied I do Patent Prosecution. While I have a technical degree and took some patent classes in law school, my professional experience has actually all been in Trademark Prosecution and it seems like that’s actually a different set of circumstances, particularly with the Certified Trademark Attorney route rather than doing the Solicitor’s Qualifying Exam. It does look like those classes aren’t offered fully remotely however, and most are paid for by the employer. Just wondering if it’s wildly unrealistic to try to get a job in the same field with US experience.

    1. YetAnotherFed*

      If you have a US bar admission, you can prosecute trademark applications even if you are not physically located in the USA. In fact, foreign domiciled trademark applicants are _required_ to have a US-licensed attorney representing them before the USPTO. I don’t know what the UK rules are in terms of practice, but the USPTO will care about your US bar admission and your standing in that bar, not where your physical location is.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Could you consult with UK firms that want to take action trademark action in the U.S.? Perhaps help them prepare packages for their U.S.-based attorneys.

  57. Re: references*

    I’m job hunting and am planning to submit my resume/application to a few places. I know references should be managers, but I’ve been with the same employer for my entire career, my current boss is someone I’ve reported to for half my career and I am not yet comfortable with letting them know I’m job hunting, even though I know they will give a glowing reference. I don’t trust a previous boss to not tell my current boss, and the I’ve lost contact with the boss before that (it’s been over 10 years). I have other trustworthy and reputable management I’ve worked with (but not reported to) in my list of references – is that enough?

    Things in my department are Not Good and my leaving is sure to be devastating to my current boss and cause an emotional spiral and that’s part of why I’m considering leaving in the first place.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think a GOOD employer would understand this setting and be okay with it.

      Don’t forget your skills are an asset. If a new employer wants those assets, they should play a fair game and not alienate you in the hiring process.

  58. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

    File under Intern Cringe: We have our first big cohort of summer interns since 2019! Most of them are great or at least trying to comport themselves professionally, and then there’s That Guy. I got the most cringe inducing email from him yesterday, complete with emojis. He has put his foot in his mouth more than once and does not seem to register it. His manager is away at the moment and I…do not want to deal with this. He doesn’t report to me, and I have a strong intuition if I reach out to say “Hey, I just wanted to point out a couple of professional norms you might not be familiar with blah blah” he’s going to argue with me. And I have no bandwidth for the arguments of That Guy.

    Aware that I was terrible at 22 also.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Is his manager someone who will address it effectively? If so, forward the email to the manager, spell out other instances you’re aware of, and let the manager deal with it when they return.

      1. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

        I’m leery of forwarding the email and starting a big paper trail. I think I will show it to the manager when he’s back in the office. I do trust him to find a graceful way to deal with it. The email originally went to someone else, who cc’ed me in because I had a role in part of the ask, and then…oy oy. The fewer people that see this the better.

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Maybe just say or even respond “some stuff is said verbally so there is no written record” and hope he gets it

      1. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

        Oh it’s worse than that. It’s in the “don’t ever ask someone that in a professional context” type faux pas. I think this guy doesn’t get the difference between talking s*it in the common room of the dorm and an emailed question to a senior staff member someplace he hopes (nay, *expects*, because he is That Guy) to work.

  59. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    What’s the job you daydream about quitting your job to go off and do?

    Mine is acupuncturist; have even requested study program materials. Also, running a mail order business of rare kitsch/camp old books!

    1. WhimsicalWhale*

      I just wanna hike all day. So some sort of outdoor adventure guide, backpacking or rock climbing or canyoneering. (All hobbies I enjoy, though I have a lot of trouble finding the time for backpacking these days)

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      My dream job is no job, just the ability to indulge my whims and hobbies as I desire!

      …but I’ve also occasionally wondered if I might enjoy being a farrier? I’ve never been around horses or had a specific desire to be, but I’ve seen shoeing/hoof care videos and I find something very satisfying about them, so it’s one of those “in a different life maybe?” things I’ve wondered about. So random!

      1. pancakes*

        Same, about not having a job. I’ll recreationally buy books from Edamame, and maybe put out a very vain little zine full of my thoughts about them. I have been collecting books for way too long and personally do not need any more, but it could be “philanthropy” if I did it full-time!

        The only times I’ve been around a farrier in person were at Old Sturbridge Village, a sort of open-air museum in Massachusetts that school kids from all over New England go on field trips to. (My family would take a road trip there sometimes as well). I’m sure there are other, similar places where re-enactors work? I apologize to them all on behalf of kids like my cousin, who thought it was endlessly hilarious to try to catch them acknowledging the modern world, admitting to playing Nintendo or something!

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        My parents knew a farrier! The area I grew up in had a lot of stables & people who supported the horse culture of the wealthy suburb a few miles north.

        The woman they knew was an acquaintance who hung out in the local bar & routinely won arm-wrestling matches with guys who didn’t realize what a job like that does for upper body strength. (She was otherwise petite.)

      4. Mac*

        I’m so glad I’m not the only weirdo out there who LOVES shoeing videos. It’s like an art, a science, and brute physical labor all at once. Impossible to look away!

    3. onyxzinnia*

      I’d love to be a private investigator or genealogy researcher. I love historical/cultural research and I wish I knew how to get paid for it instead of marketing management.

      I also think it’d be great fun to be a location scout for movies/TV shows, drive around and take photos of possible locations and negotiate with location management to film there.

      On the complete opposite spectrum, I’d love to be a travel agent and put together dream vacations for people. I’ve thought about doing this as a side gig but most advertised positions seem to be a pay-to-play scam.

      1. Books and Cooks*

        If you have time, you could absolutely start a side business doing genealogical research! Set up a FB page, join a few groups, take out a few ads (I’m suggesting FB because it’s basically free–even ads are often free, because they send you “try our ads!” offers). Despite websites like Ancestry, lots of people don’t have the time or inclination to do that research themselves, or the ability. I paid to join Ancestry years ago, based on their, “Our search indicates we have records for you!” thing, and ended up with one death certificate, which I already had and gave me no additional/new information. So I canceled my membership, and have always wished I could actually find something, but have no idea where else to look or where to really start.

        I’m sure I’m not the only one in that position, and I’m sure there are people in that position who (unlike me) have the money to pay someone to do the research. It’s definitely worth putting out a shingle, anyway, and seeing what happens. (And afaik/IME most of these researchers are very expensive, so if you offer services at a lower price, you could find yourself very busy–I don’t mean “charge bargain basement prices,” of course, and once you have a few clients under your belt you could raise them back up, but it’s a way to get started, anyway. It’s up to you.)

    4. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Paleontologist! I took a paleontology class for a generic science credit in college and we had someone come in who’d gotten started in sculpting and then became essentially a paleontological reconstructor. He now helps museums create exhibits & makes big models for them. It sounded like the best combination of art and science I’d ever heard of.

    5. Office Gumby*

      Oh, maybe a part-time (all the fun creative stuff). Write books,/articles, do digital art, compose music, stuff like that, free from the hassle of worrying whether my art is bringing in sufficient income. I’d also like to go back to school and get a much higher degree.

  60. CourtJobBob*

    I’m thinking about applying for a position with the (US) Federal Court system in an administrative type position. This is a completely new area for me! Does anyone have any insight on the hiring process or even what it’s like working for them?

    I also see that they are requiring a letter of interest. Any tips on those would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    1. rosyglasses*

      If it’s through the government at all, there are some great resources on how to build your resume in the specific way that government jobs require it and they even have free webinars on how to write your resume and how the interview process works. I went through a spurt of applying to federal jobs (some in the courts) and it was insane how long the resume ended up being and the specific questions you need to answer!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      My friend works in a lower level court, not a Fed court and I asked her.

      She said she does not know first hand but she can make some solid guesses.
      Security is an issue of course and it’s not just physical security its also about securing private information. Be on your toes and follow the rules to the letter for EVERYTHING.

      In the bigger courts, responsibility is narrowed. So you may find yourself doing X task all day long because that is the scope of your responsibilities. It could get boring and feel like a hamster wheel.

      Learning what to say and what not to say is a bfd. A smart move is to not say too much to outsiders until you learn the rules very well. Definitely do not discuss work with your friends and family. Do not use your email, social media, etc to discuss cases or people. Don’t mess this one up, it’s serious. Back to– the less said, the better you look.

      Like any other arena some people are nice and some… not so much. There’s still a lot of sexism in law, according to her.

      Sometimes the cases make a person cry, just reading the case.

      Her best advice is prepare to get used to not understanding your job and yet you remain employed. This means ask questions and let go of assumptions. Double check things, keep notes and date your notes.

      You will probably be required to take CE courses which should be provided for you. Your first year will probably be even more courses to get you launched.

      Just from listening to my friend over the years, I would pay very close attention to the job description. Make a list of activities included in the job. This is how I would begin to orient myself to this arena.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      I don’t know what kind of “administrative type” position you’re planning to apply to, but Resume Place (resume-place is hyphenated in the the dot-com address line) is a good online source for how to write federal resumes, and your local public library probably has a copy of at least one edition of their Federal Resume Guidebook (according to the website, the 7th edition is the latest), or their Jobseeker’s Guide (9th edition is the latest).
      Best of luck. It’s going to be a loooong process.

  61. CourtJobBob*

    I’d be interested in knowing what is more important to you: a job that you are passionate about (either in mission or in the work you do) or a job with good benefits (pay, vacation time, etc)?

    I’ve been considering this lately for myself and am interested in what other people think.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Both are important, so I try to find a balance of both that I’m content with.

      1. Paris Geller*

        Agreed. Passion is great, but if I can’t pay rent, it’s not going to be helpful.
        I’m a librarian, which is a field that is not known for great pay or benefits. However, I feel pretty lucky at my current employer. I make a decent salary and have decent benefits, plus I get to do work I’m passionate about. Finding a job that offers both is such a unicorn!
        I think at this point in my life, though, if I was forced to find another job, I would lean toward going with a job with good benefits. I can find my passion elsewhere by volunteering, taking up hobbies, etc. I can’t find rent money or healthcare nearly as easily.

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      Benefits, 100%. Of course, I am always up for the unicorn job that has both, but after a number of jobs that had shaky financing and threats of layoffs (or in one case, an actual layoff) my current job where I am not super enthused about the work but get great pay and bonuses and is a stable company is wonderful. I can now comfortably stay in this position, even though I am kind of bored for as long as it takes to find the unicorn.

    3. Irish Teacher*

      Absolutely a job I’m passionate about, but I’m lucky. I don’t have any dependents, I live in a country where things like healthcare costs aren’t a MASSIVE issue and where I don’t have to worry about paying back student loans.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      When I was younger, passion mattered more to me than anything else. This is how I ended up in my field. Now that I’ve been here a while, benefits are the highest priority, but not a high enough priority that I’d leave my field. So, I guess this has a lot of do, for me, with where I was in my life when I was asked. Though I confess, I never would have accepted benefits that would have been so low that I wouldn’t have been able to afford to live on them comfortably.

    5. Can't Sit Still*

      For me, good benefits and decent working conditions, which include good coworkers, good manager, safe office (my definition of a safe office is obviously different today than it was 5 years ago, 15 years ago, and so on), etc. I love what I do, and while I could do it anywhere, I do enjoy working where I feel like I’m making a positive difference in the world.

    6. aubrey*

      If the pay/benefits are not sufficient then I’ll feel taken advantage of no matter how much I like the job, but if I hate my daily work it doesn’t matter how good the pay/benefits are because I’ll hate my life. So, a balance of both, but if both are at/over an acceptable level then liking the job is more of a decider for me (unless the money is REALLY good I suppose, but even then it’s not worth hating my life).

    7. Midcareer mom*

      The latter as long as I am not doing something I feel totally, morally aghast at doing. When I was younger I would have said the former but now that I’m older (mid 40s) with kids, I want something stable and need to be able to afford housing and transportation and have good insurance, etc.

    8. RagingADHD*

      First priority, lifestyle. That includes flexibility, stress levels, and the actual people I work with not being horrible, petty, passive aggressive, manipulative or histrionic.

      Next on the list is pay and benefits.

      Passion is last. I want to do useful, honest work, but I don’t want my passions tied to a paycheck. That would make me beholden to someone else’s agenda and would likely force me to compromise my integrity at some point. My creative and value-based passions are not for sale.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      I’ll take good benefits over passion any day. I can do the stuff I care about outside work—those fields or jobs don’t pay enough to live on.

    10. Employed Minion*

      I’ve never had a job I was passionate about but I’ve learned I do need to be mentally engaged. I vote benefits.

    11. The Person from the Resume*

      Good benefits!

      I like my job and my coworkers, but I’m not passionate about it.

    12. Policy Wonk*

      If you are taking a survey, I vote for the pay/benefits. Passion doesn’t pay the bills. That said, you may find your niche – something you didn’t know you would be passionate about – as you progress through your career, and turn it into a win/win.

    13. RussianInTexas*

      Benefits, 100%. I don’t really have any passion I can apply to a job anyway, never have, but I need to eat, pay my bills, and afford my medical expenses.

    14. Aphrodite*

      Benefits. I work in higher education as an administrative assistant. I’d never stay at a job I hated just for the security but I am willing to compromise if I mostly find the job boring or “passion-less.” Decent pay and outstanding benefits, which in my case include 100% medical coverage, vision, dental, the college’s contributions to the state retirement system, 96 hours of six leave. per year (that can be accumulated without limit), currently 14.67 hours of vacation per month (with a two-year limit to carry over to the next fiscal year), 16 holidays per year, a strong union, and more, mean that my mortgage on my beloved home is paid every month and I have savings. I am secure both financially and in insurance ways–and that gives me the solid foundation I want so I can focus all my off-work time on my passions. The ability to have it all is there; I am willing to give a lot to get a lot and I never regret it nor forget my gratitude for it. I used to believe I deserved the freedom to do what I wanted (write) was most important. As I got older/wiser I realized that for me I had more freedom when I had a solid foundation for my life under my feet. Now I can write or not. But I don’t need to.

    15. Flower necklace*

      I’m not sure if this counts as passion, exactly, but one of the major reasons I like teaching is that it’s active. I couldn’t see myself in a desk job, no matter how much it paid. Even though I enjoy living alone, I like being around and interacting with other people at work.

    16. AnonForThis*

      A bit of column A, a bit of column B and a bit of column C.

      I’m not strongly money oriented – if I’ve got enough money to live comfortably, visit family and do some budget travel, and have my health care needs covered, I’m happy. I also like having a job that interests me and keeps me mentally stimulated. I’m not the sort of person who can do nothing but my passion job – I need diversity in my life, and the more successful people in my field tend to be the ones who eat, sleep and breathe their work. I also mistrust that approach, because if something goes wrong at work, you have nothing else in your life. Column C is a job that is reasonably pleasant to be at and low in dysfunction, and in the same city as my husband.

      I do think that things change as you get older. I enjoyed grad school, but I don’t want to return to the perpetually broke, crappy apartments and roommates phase of my life. I know a lot of people whose views shifted from passion to practicality with family issues – wanting to live with their spouse, have kids, be able to financially support and spend time with their family, needing decent health insurance.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe not that helpful but I gave up on being passionate about a job a while ago. I am not going to marry my job so there is no need for passion- it’s kinda gross to me. So passion is off the table for me.

      A job has to be interesting, there has to be a range of activities and responsibilities. It has to require thinking- I don’t mind setting up new things or launching new ideas. I enjoy that. So diversity of tasks is important to me. If I am off in a corner somewhere doing the same one or two things, I won’t last.

      Benefits. For me this is a can of worms. I have my own health insurance, i don’t need that. If I get vacation time, I would probably just find some pick-up work to do. Retirement would be nice but at this stage in life it’s probably too late.

      So pay and interest level would be my two major things.

    18. allathian*

      I work to live, I’ve never lived to work. I don’t crave excitement or drama at work, but I do need my job to engage my brain in some way, or else I’ll zone out. I don’t think I have it in me to be passionate about a job, if I’m honest. I don’t like the idea either, because it takes you away from the idea of jobs as simple business transactions where you provide the effort and the employer pays you an appropriate salary for it.

      I’ve never been interested in keeping up with the Joneses, or status in general, so as long as my job pays enough to allow me to live reasonably comfortably and to pay for all the necessities and some luxuries, I’m happy. That said, I wouldn’t be happy working at a job that’s in conflict with my personal values. I find excessive personal wealth (more than about 10 million per person) to be morally repugnant, which is a big reason why I don’t want to work in the private sector.

      Work/life balance is very important to me, which is why I’m happy to be a senior individual contributor rather than a manager. Sure, as a subject matter expert there are days when I think about work even when I’m not working, but that really doesn’t happen more often than a few times a year. And I never have to look at my work email or answer my work phone unless I’m actually working.

    19. Wordybird*

      As a 40-something who has been in the ER three times in the last 18 months because of a sudden medical condition that now has lifelong consequences… it’s definitely the latter.

      I can be passionate outside work.

  62. Spearmint*

    Why do people act like ageism against young people isn’t a thing, or at least isn’t considered nearly as bad as ageism against middle-aged and older folks?

    For example, I have a late-40s coworker who loves to joke about how young I am (I’m late-20s). She keeps mentioning my birth year in a tone of amazement, jokingly “explaining” to me what DVDs and VHS were (which… I’m old enough to know what those were, thanks), etc. She’s also done this to me in front of other coworkers, and no one has said anything. In the past I’ve usually awkwardly laughed along and tried to move onto other topics, but if she does this again I’ll probably explicitly tell her to cut it out. It makes me feel disrespected, like I’m a overgrown high schooler. (I will say this coworker otherwise treats me fine and works well with me, and we don’t work together very often). I’ve had a couple other coworkers make a few light, joking references to my age, but for everyone else it was a once or twice kinda thing.

    I feel like if the situation was reversed, and I was making jokes about her being old, that would’ve been shut down by my coworkers. Overall, my office is super supportive and non-toxic, but they seem to have a blindspot here. I know the law only defines ageism as against those 40 and up, but morally speaking I don’t see a difference.

    1. FashionablyEvil*

      How long have you been working together? Sometimes it’s novelty and fades on its own. Other times, calling attention to it can help (“Jane, I notice you bring up my age a lot and it’s making me uncomfortable. Could you please stop?”)

      Not totally sure if I recommend my approach—I had a senior colleague who called me kiddo, and I finally snapped and said, “Don! DON’T call me kiddo!”—but, to his credit, he did stop after that.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        I agree with this, “I know that you are joking, but it is making me uncomfortable, could you please stop?” My guess is that she thinks it is innocuous joking and will stop as soon as you let her know that you’d prefer not to. If she keeps it up after that, then she’s a jerk.

    2. pancakes*

      She’s being a tedious jerk. Try not to let it get to you. Maybe she doesn’t know what else to talk about besides something that would be minor or unremarkable to everyone else but seems like a big deal to her (you being younger, I mean), maybe there’s some other reason, who knows, but it’s not a reflection on you.

    3. Alex*

      I think when people refer to agism, it is about stuff like not hiring someone over 40, firing people because of their old age and likelier health issues, etc. What you are describing is less agism (denied opportunities because of your age) and more people being jerks and using your age as the butt of their jokes. I don’t think “Hey old fart” would be considered agism either…just dickishness.

    4. Irish Teacher*

      I guess the assumption is that you will get older so you won’t have to put up with it for ever. Not that I think that’s an excuse. Younger people are definitely under-respected sometimes.

      One option is to draw atttention to the fact you are older than she seems to imply. Like, “yes, I remember that well; my favourite was…” when she starts to “explain” something from your childhood to you. In a tone of voice that ASSUMES she is just sharing reminiscences because she couldn’t possibly think you didn’t remember that.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        I feel like the idea of what is young/old in some peoples’ heads is so skewed, I don’t want for it to change and chime in and shut people up. Some people I know still legitimately think anyone who doesn’t remember the 70s is “kids these days.” So they think basically 70% of the work force or more is too young to be adulting. I don’t think they’re every going to fully respect younger people so there isn’t a reason to wait

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          Tbh, I know some people who were full-grown adults in the 70s & don’t remember it. There was something in the air… (Anyone who lived through 70s children’s programming knows that many people were imbibing substances on the regular.)

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      As Alex pointed out, I don’t think this is ageism. Ageism is a systematic issue- firing people when they hit 60, not hiring people over a certain age (or only hiring people under a certain age, though that’s not illegal), etc. I do think it can apply to younger people, but the law doesn’t cover that.

      This just a person being annoying. Not that that’s okay, because it sounds like it’s super frustrating. Personally, I have no idea what your coworkers would or wouldn’t shut down, but I can say that in my experience, relying on other people to step up and tell someone else to stop being a jerk is almost never a successful tactic. Also, they are not experiencing it the way you are. For you, you notice every time it happens. For your coworkers, they might just not be paying that much attention. Anyhow, I think the only way to deal with it is to speak up as others have said.

    6. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I get what you are saying, it bothers me too and I am 45 and not always the brunt of them anymore. I feel like it’s been on the increase lately towards slightly younger people, since all of the “millennials bad” articles.

      20 years ago I don’t remember “OMG you never saw a Jane Fonda movie” comments. When people commented on my age, it was actually relevant.

      Now I’ve seen it used against today’s 25 year olds as a sort of power play, and if I see it in person, I step in. For example, a quick “many people our age or older didn’t see every John Hughes movie. Some people aren’t into high school dramas” to shut it down

      I don’t mind joking but most of the “your so young stuff” isn’t funny or interesting.

    7. Nicki Name*

      Employment law only worries about ageism against older people because it is typically ageism against older people that tends to affect employment.

      Ageism against older people may be treated more seriously in broader society because it is often tangled up with ableist prejudice, and because our culture as a whole tends to valorize younger people.

      All that said, your coworker is a jerk and needs to cut it out, and you are entirely within your right to tell her it isn’t funny and you’d like her to stop.

    8. River Otter*

      Probably for the same reason we act like racism against white people is not a thing.

    9. Littorally*

      So, morally speaking, there’s a pretty big difference between “people are making jokes about me that I don’t like” and the kind of thing that legally defined ageism encompasses — finding excuses to fire people just before they’re eligible for pensions, the systemic difficulty in getting hired once someone is within a couple decades of retirement — never mind that they’ve still got years or decades of working life left! — and so on. You’re not going to get a lot of traction out of comparing the two in a request to stop, and I’d strongly advise you not to go there.

      Which is not to say that your coworker’s behavior isn’t unpleasant. You’re entirely within your rights not to laugh along. In fact, the part where you’ve awkwardly laughed along in the past has probably encouraged her to continue — you know you were feeling awkward and affronted, but her perception was probably something like “Spearmint laughed! I made a funny joke!”

      So, don’t laugh along. Say flatly “Yeah, I remember those, you’re being weird” and move along. If she keeps doing it (often one time a joke aggressively fails to land, people will back off), say “I don’t know how young you think I am, but you’re off by at least a decade. Please stop making these jokes.”

    10. PollyQ*

      I’m disappointed to hear so many people refer to this as someone “just” being a jerk. I hope if we saw someone being made the butt of jokes because they were white or male, we’d have no problem identifying that as fundamentally racist or sexist. And yes, I know the law is different in those cases, and Spearmint acknowledges that, but I agree that there’s no great moral difference there. (There are also some states where it IS illegal to discriminate on the basis of age, period.)

      I do like FashionablyEvil & LadyByTheLake’s suggested scripts, and I also think it’d be fine to say, “Jane, I’d never give you any grief about your age, and I hope you can give me the same courtesy.”

    11. Policy Wonk*

      I would probably not address it directly. She may like that she’s getting under your skin – some people are like that, and I’m sure your face is showing that you don’t appreciate it. This may be her way of putting you in your place. I’d say something in a bored tone like “yes, yes, another tedious age joke. Thanks Jane. Now about that report…”

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Thank you. Sincerely, thank you. I remember how I was treated when I was 20. I am 62 now. I really saw how young people were treated like dirt. And now I see my peers doing the exact same thing we rolled our eyes at decades ago. It ticks me right off because we (collectively) should know better. Yet we are doing the same thing that we hated so much to the next generations. wtf.

      You might try something like, “Ya know. If I made comments about other people’s ages, I would get written up for discrimination. I think it’s only fair that everyone just not talk about people’s ages period.”

      You are 100% correct that this is wrong. If I could successfully apologize for an entire generation I would. However an apology here would do absolutely nothing they are just going to keep doing this. FWIW, if I saw this in my work place I would say something on the side to this woman. And you would probably never know. Because those memories of what went on in my 20s are still clear in my mind.

      Worth all of two cents: I have worked with a number of 20 somethings. I find their candor refreshing and their cut to the chase way of expressing things is a sheer joy to hear. I love to hear the ideas they come up with and I have gotten advice from them that has been so helpful. This woman is losing out on so much and she has NO clue.

      If you can’t muster it up to say that to her then think about mentioning it to the boss. And you can use similar phrasing, “Ya know boss, if I talked about people’s ages like that, I could get in trouble and maybe get the company in trouble. I think it’s only fair that people give back the same respect they are given. I don’t see a need to make constant comments about me being 20 something. Is there something that can be done here?”

      There’s another part of me that would just want to tell her, “How did it feel when older people said that about you when you were starting out?” Or maybe not say that…..

    13. kiki*

      I think because youth is so prized in Western Culture, when people are calling someone out for being young, they’re thinking of it as a positive or neutral call-out. They may not realize that it could infantilize you in a way or make you feel othered.

  63. rosemaryshrub*

    Does anyone have any stories, good or bad, of working with a career coach? Is it a scam? Could it actually bring clarity?
    A bit of background: I left a very niche arts/culture/non-profit role after 8 years and am now in a more generic non-profit role and it’s fine. I like the people I work with, I like the less demanding hours and flexibility, I don’t love the pay cut and the work is occasionally interesting but mostly not, where my previous role was super demanding but I was always learning (in an exciting way).
    When I was job hunting last year I attended a free webinar with a career coach that I actually found pretty engaging. I keep thinking back to that and wondering if it would be worth the investment to work with her more closely.
    Further consideration – I’m currently pregnant with my second (and last) child, so I could have a sort of natural “out” for my current role early next year if I wanted to and perhaps a real chance to pivot (again).

    1. RagingADHD*

      The only one I ever hired was a complete scam, but in hindsight there were lots of red flags and I went ahead with it based on magical thinking that she was somehow going to grant me a fairy-godmother type of wish.

      If your expectations are realistic and you can talk to or get referrals from people who have actually worked with them, that’s different.

    2. CatCat*

      I’ve had a good experience and gotten a lot of clarity. Maybe ask the career coach if she could put you in touch with a couple clients? Then you could talk to them and see what they got out of the coaching and determine whether the coach’s approach would be a good fit for you.

    3. calvin blick*

      I had a good experience with a career coach. I was doing a good job, but was not good at explaining what I did and what made me good at it. She was able to break down what I do, and what my skills are, and helped me get a good raise and later another job with a good pay bump.

  64. Helping my team use they/them pronouns*

    I have a junior colleague on my team who uses they/them pronouns. Although this is noted in their email address and signature and I’m sure our project team is aware, two senior colleagues persist in saying “she.” I’ve tried in the moment corrections, making comments like, “reminder that Jane uses they/them pronouns,” and being conscientious about making sure I’m getting it right, but it’s persisting. Jane is in my reporting structure (they report to a manager who reports to me), and the worst offender is the project director who’s several levels above me and is known to be a bit prickly.

    What’s my next best move in addressing this?

    1. Pascall*

      Sounds like it should be an HR issue at this point. If they’re continuing to misgender this employee, they are actively choosing to harass them which can open the company up to liability. Please report it for Jane’s sake.

    2. OnetoFindTheGiraffe*

      Obviously YMMV on this one, but since Jane’s in your reporting structure, it might make sense to have a brief conversation with her. “I’ve noticed that sometimes in meetings people misgender you in meetings. I don’t want to rock the boat if doing so would make you uncomfortable, but I wanted to let you know that I’m happy to bring this up with Project Director privately and/or address this with Direct Manager if that would be helpful.”

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      I would check in with Jane to see what they want, and to see if there other issues. Because as Pascall pointed out, if there’s intentional misgendering, there’s potentially other harassment happening too. It also would allow Jane to know that they have a higher up in their court and feel empowered to push back (which they may not feel they can do against the sr colleagues or the director) or know that you’re a safe person to come to if the issue persists.

      Checking in with Jane to know what they want is important – they may not want anything done and would be uncomfortable with you doing more. They may appreciate you speaking up to remind people, but maybe they hate that you do that. They could also be incredibly relieved that you approached them and be thrilled that you want to do more! Everyone is different, so don’t assume you know what they want done or how they feel.

      Full caveat, I genuinely don’t know if this is a “report to HR no matter what Jane says/wants” situation – my instinct is that HR definitely should be brought in, but I know there has been at least one letter here that was essentially “my harassed employee doesn’t want to report it to HR”, I’ll try to find it but I’m trying to remember if the response was “tell them this needs to be reported anyway and do it” or “you should respect their wishes, plus you/HR can’t really do anything if the person doesn’t want to formally report it”. (I want to be very clear that I am in no way downplaying or dismissing the awfulness of this issue – respect people’s pronouns everyone! Just pointing out that I don’t know if there are things that need to/can get reported without the victim’s buy-in, like does mandatory reporting exist in a workplace? Can you report that you don’t like witnessing harassment if Jane doesn’t want to report the harassment itself?)

      But either way I think Jane should be involved in whatever you do next so you can at least get the full picture on what’s happening and figure out how best to help them.

    4. peter b*

      I second asking Jane – I use they/them at work but my personal situation is such that I’d rather it be as little of an issue as possible; in the moment corrections go a long way to making the people who do slip up or don’t care bearable. I don’t really want to be the reason for any indepth discussions or education, at least not while I’m present. But that may or may not be the case for Jane! They’re in your reporting structure, so it’s an especially safe thing to do and will likely be appreciated.

    5. Student*

      It also doesn’t sound like you’ve talked to the senior colleagues in a more direct way. You should try to explain that it’s important to you that they treat your employees with respect, and that means respecting their pronouns as well as their names. Occasional mistakes will be forgiven, but making zero effort won’t be tolerated. You’d rather settle this one-on-one like colleagues than escalate it, but you will need to see a change, or you’ll have no other choice. Similarly, if your employees were not respecting their names, pronouns, etc., you would not tolerate that.

  65. Paris Geller*

    I’m asking for advice on this situation on behalf of my husband, who is currently in a truly ridiculous situation.

    So, situation: My husband works at a very nice hotel as a night auditor. He’s been there for about seven months. Apparently, they’re having an issue in the men’s staff bathroom where someone on the night shift keeps messing up the plumbing by using those disposable toilet seat covers (multiple at a time) and then flushing them. A few months ago a member of their maintenance department asked my husband if he knew who was doing it, and my husband replied that he did not, but the implication was that the maintenance person thought it was my husband. Apparently, the head of housekeeping last night also confronted my husband, saying that whoever was messing up the plumbing was going to get in trouble, up to termination, and basically accused my husband of being the one doing it. According to her, this only happens on the nights he works. It’s not him, and now he’s freaking out he might lose his job over disposable toilet seat covers he’s not using.

    Since this is in the bathroom, I don’t know how he could prove it wasn’t him? My suggestion is for him to use the public bathrooms instead (that’s allowed, the staff bathroom is just closer), and see if it continues, but really, it’s a truly ridiculous situation. Advice on how he can NOT be blamed for this?

    1. pancakes*

      I don’t think he should switch to a different bathroom knowing perfectly well that the behavior likely will continue in the staff one, since it’s not him doing it. I think he should try to keep in mind that housekeeping probably doesn’t have termination authority over front desk staff (that would be a really unusual reporting structure, yes?), and try to think about how he might help housekeeping get the problem resolved, if that’s something within purview of his role. If it’s not, maybe it’s time to escalate this to his own supervisor. Repeatedly accusing one person of doing this obviously hasn’t stopped the behavior, and it’s not appropriate for housekeeping to keep trying it.

      1. Paris Geller*

        The head of housekeeping’s comment was more “management is going to investigate this and start disciplinary action” rather than “I am going to investigate this and start disciplinary action”, but good advice I will pass on to him!

    2. BellyButton*

      I think he should call up his manager and get ahead of it “I think they think I am the one doing it, but I am not. What is the best way to handle this?”

    3. fueled by coffee*

      Maybe tangential to the point, but can someone at the hotel also check that there are adequate trash cans/disposal bins in the stalls, and also place some conspicuous signage reminding people to throw the seat covers in the trash and not flush them?

      I can’t imagine that someone is doing this on purpose – more likely that someone just doesn’t realize the seat covers damage the plumbing OR doesn’t want to carry the seat cover to a more distant trash can.

      1. River Otter*

        Seat covers are flushable. OP says multiple seat covers, so that’s why they are clogging the toilet. Too much toilet paper can also clog a toilet.

      2. RagingADHD*

        Seat covers are supposed to be flushed. Just not a bunch at a time. You only need one per visit.

        This is either intentional vandalism or someone with an odd and irrational quirk who thinks they are getting more protection by layering.

        1. pancakes*

          Yes. I worked in a place where someone was doing this — flushing lots of them at once — and I don’t think it was intentional vandalism. If memory is correct it turned out to be someone draping them around the gaps around the stall door? The stalls were the type that had quite a large gap between door and frame, and I think it turned out to be someone who was trying to remedy that every time with swathes of paper. But in a hotel at night and with an alternative staff bathroom available it would be extra extra to do all that, I’d think. In the place I worked there were lots of people around and only during the day.

    4. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Ask housekeeping to do a ‘scream test’ – remove the covers and see who complains. If someone is using multiple, odds are they will complain to housekeeping.

    5. Anon for This*

      There is someone who does this in my office as well. See if he can get management to remove the seat covers – he doesn’t use them, and they appear to be more of a nuisance than something that is actually needed.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Are there cameras in the hallway that show who is in the hallway?

      Who else works at night?

      Is the bathroom locked with only employees have the key or pass code?

      When does the cleaner clean that particular bathroom?

      Can all employees on duty do hourly bathroom checks and initial a report?

      In my experience this type of accusation happens often in these types of jobs. Employees are disposable so threatening them or making them feel intimidated is the norm. I suspect if he pushes through this then there will be more drama about something else fairly soon.

      I think your best bet is to encourage your husband that he can find a better job. Having been down the road with these types of problems I know that they can set it up so that it looks like he did it. It’s just not worth putting a lot of energy into.

      My friend got accused of stealing. She filed for unemployment. When she got to the office the unemployment officer said, “Let me guess. You were fired for stealing right?” . My friend nodded. He said, “How one company can hire so many thieves is amazing. There is something wrong with their hiring system if they hire that many thieves.” She got her unemployment because the employer lacked credibility due to too many accusations.
      My point is these situations can leave a person gutted, my friend was very lucky to have an outsider give her this information so she could begin to regroup. Encourage your husband that this is only worth a small amount of energy and then he should just move on. This is a very disrespectful employer.

  66. Anonymous cat lover*

    On January 1, I retired from a Fortune 100 company. I had worked there for 20 years, and I spent 15 at my previous employer. My most recent company was, and I hate to use this cliche, toxic, but by the time I realized this I decided that I should stick it out, because the benefits were good and my partner’s job was unstable, and because of my age. To make a long story short, I finally had enough, and after consultations with our financial planner we decided that we could retire.

    Which brings me to my question. The company I retired from is headquartered in my city and has a large presence. I don’t need to go into details on why this company is, OK, a bad company, and the leadership in my division was, ok, evil. But in the course of daily life, it comes into conversation that I’m retired. And almost always people ask, oh, where did you work? I hate talking about my job, my company. I have good memories about individual people, but I don’t want to mention the company or associate myself with it, or talk about what my job entailed. At times I feel like joking, “I was a CIA agent and that’s all I can say.” What I really need is advice about brushing off inquiries about my past employment, because I’d really rather talk about all of the books I am reading and the sewing projects I have time for now.

    From reading this blog, I know that many, many people have worked in toxic workplaces. Now that I have retired from one, how to I avoid mentioning even where I worked and what I did there? People always want to talk about where you work/worked, and I don’t want to. But I don’t want to be rude to people who are just making conversation.

    Thank you.

    1. FashionablyEvil*

      “Oh, I’m just so glad to be retired and to not have to think about work anymore! Have you read any good books recently/seen the new Top Gun movie/other random topic change.”

    2. londonedit*

      It might just be as simple as saying ‘Oh, I used to work in banking but I’m really enjoying being retired because I have so much more time for my sewing projects! I’m about to start making a dress for an upcoming party. Have you ever done something like that?’ – give a brief mention of the sort of job you did, but then redirect the conversation to something you really do want to talk about. If you don’t want to mention the industry you could say ‘I used to be an accountant/editor/a llama groomer/I used to make rice sculptures’ instead, and vice versa. And if someone persists you could always go for the ‘I’ve practically forgotten what I did for work already! I was reading this fantastic book the other week, you know the author spent three years up a mountain in Nepal…’

    3. Mints*

      I would be purposefully boring when they try to ask about work, then try to be really interesting when they talk about non-work. If they ask direct questions about it, say things like “It was fine” “I guess” “Yeah” then change the subject.
      “It was fine, but I love being retired. I have so much time for X”
      (was it hard) “I managed. I’m so glad to be doing X all the time now, though”
      (what did you do) “I was a senior writer when I retired. Anyway, have you watched any good TV lately?”
      (did you work at Y) “Yeah. … So have you got any vacations planned?”

  67. feathersflight*

    At the job interview I had yesterday, I was asked, “What do you think will be the least difficult and most difficult aspects of this job?” I honestly had no idea how to respond to that. The description of the job had been rather nonspecific — it basically listed all aspects of my field as potential activities. At this point in my career, all of the work I do is complex; none of it is easy, or a lower-level person would be doing it. I didn’t want to say, “Oh, [thing I’ve done the most of] would be no problem,” because that’s simply not true; I enjoy it because it’s a challenge, not because it’s “least difficult”. I wound up answering both sides of the question with non-technical aspects, citing communication as the “least difficult” — I talked up my communication and people-handling skills a lot, because in a field of technical folks, someone who can actually communicate information clearly stands out. So I *think* that was a decent answer, but I’m honestly not sure.

    Has anyone else faced that kind of interview question? How did you respond?

    1. Ginger Pet Lady*

      Honestly, I’d want to turn it back to them. “The job description was somewhat vague and all encompassing. So it might be hard to figure out exactly what is expected in this role. Can you expand on that for me so I have a better idea of what this role actually is? Then I would be better able to address the question.”

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yeah, if you don’t have enough info to answer, then say that.

        Interviews are supposed to be a conversation that addresses real life, not a magic code where you say the incantation to unlock a level.

      3. feathersflight*

        I did do that, actually! They replied by describing the overall project effort more, which helped, but they still weren’t clear about what exactly I’d be doing. In retrospect, that does make me wonder how organized they are — they might not have a clear idea of what I’d be doing, they just know they need a person with X skill set.

    2. BellyButton*

      No, I have never been asked that. I usually ask them “what do you think will be the biggest challenge for the person coming into the role?”

      I think what you said is fine. “I don’t know if it is the least difficult, but I am very familiar with X, and love the challenge of it. “

    3. Irish Teacher*

      I have been asked that question, but the most memorable one was in the context of an interview where the principal had been being very honest about discipline issues within the school and I was honest in return, saying that it had been a while since I had worked in schools where I was dealing with a lot of students with behavioural issues as my recent jobs had been in small rural schools.

      I think saying what you had experience with sounds fine. I even think you could have said that challenging thing would be less of a challenge for you than it might otherwise be as you have a lot of experience with it and enjoy the challenge.

    4. stressball*

      Where I work, when we interview we ask a similar question but it’s worded as, “After hearing more about this job and looking at the job description, in what areas do you think you could contribute right away, and in what areas would you need more time or training?”

      If I got the question as it was worded to you, I’d probably answer it as if it was worded like my company does.

      1. feathersflight*

        Oh, I like that a lot! I’m going to keep that in mind if I get the same question again.

    5. Kira*

      “Oh, I worked in marketing/accounting/HR.”

      If they ask where you can say “To be honest, I don’t have great memories of my last few years there and would rather focus on what I’ve been doing since I got my life back!”

  68. Pascall*

    I’ve been interviewing for new positions since April… Now my two coworkers (the only two individuals on my team) are also probably going to leave within the next month. I don’t have an offer yet and I’m scared I won’t get one before they leave. Little bit scared to be by myself as the most junior person on the team. Just hoping for good vibes I guess lol. I’m on a second round for a great opp right now, but I’ve been there before!

  69. Jzilbeck*

    My spouse was recently terminated from their job and I am giving birth in a few more weeks. Job searching is going slowly and I am quite wracked with anxiety over them finding new employment before baby is born although we have health insurance from my job and I’ve got paid maternity leave. But still, one salary with a lot of additional expenses coming….It’s been a few years since either one of us has had to job hunt. Any advice over how much time to be spent every day for this task? Are cover letters really necessary? Maybe how to stay sane during this chaotic time?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Time spent job searching: your spouse should pick something sustainable for them. When I was job searching, I spent about 1 hour per day, but I was employed and didn’t have any other pressing life changes. Maybe 2-4 hours/day?

      Cover letters: applying to fewer jobs with tailored cover letters and resumes is generally a better strategy than applying to more jobs with no cover letter and the same resume. There are some fields where cover letters aren’t really a thing, so hopefully your spouse knows if they’re in one of those.

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      One way that I stayed sane (but being single living alone is very different from your situation) is to tackle large projects that I didn’t have time for before. One is making a spread sheet of all my books, with different pages for read, unread, old and undecided. I now maintain it easily. I was also able to downsize on the number of books, at at the same time.

    3. rosemaryshrub*

      I agree with the other commenter to budget 2-4 hours a day job hunting. Some days will be less (there aren’t any new jobs to apply to, etc.), and some may be longer (there’s a job interview, plus a cover letter to update for another application, plus going through new postings).
      I will also add that from experience, depending on how long things take it’s really hard to job hunt properly while caring with an infant so if at all possible don’t give into temptation to make them the primary caregiver because they’re already at home.

    4. Books and Cooks*

      Others have answered the “how many hours per day” and cover letter questions, but I wanted to add a couple of things that (hopefully) might help.

      1. I mentioned in another thread temp agencies and employment agencies. I encourage you to have your spouse check some out! Temp agencies/jobs can be great while job hunting, because they can provide some income and help “keep your hand in” while still being flexible and not needing to be the perfect fit for long-term or anything. Plus, they often offer temp-to-perm positions, or give a job-searcher an in with a company that could lead to something bigger.

      2. Our first daughter was born a month before 9/11, and in the wake of it, my husband lost his job (he worked for a company affected by it, but we were in another state). It was stressful and worrying, especially since we’d decided I would stay home with the baby so I had no job or anything; it took him about two months to find a good job, and we had to sign up for government assistance and receive some help from family (we didn’t know about temp agencies then). But in retrospect, and even sometimes when it was going on? It was *wonderful.* It was wonderful to have him able to spend so much time with me and the baby. I had some postpartum depression, so having him there was a huge help, and by the time he went back to work I felt better.

      So I know this is a chaotic time, and a stressful time, and it won’t always be easy. But we both feel now that it was a (non-religious) blessing in disguise, and that we were so lucky to have had him there with me. When we were worried about money or lack of callbacks or whatever, we would go for a little walk with the baby, or snuggle up on the couch with her to watch a movie. We built a tent in our living room one night and had a few cocktails in it; we binge-watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer; we organized some photo albums and cleaned out our closet; we played video games and traded off sleeping/feeding shifts. You’re about to experience one of life’s biggest joys, and you get to have your spouse with you for that–try to focus on that, and on the happy parts. I certainly hope your spouse is able to find a great job quickly, but don’t be afraid to try to enjoy this time together, as well.

      (Oh, and call any utility companies, mortgage companies, or other companies you regularly pay; a lot of them can offer some kind of plan or “payment holiday” or something like that, to help out with your finances in the immediate short-term. Do it now, if you haven’t already, before money starts to get tight/tighter, because they can be surprisingly helpful, especially since you’re talking to them *before* it becomes an issue.)

      I really hope that helps. I was terrified the day my husband came home early because he’d been let go–we both were–but looking back on it, I am thrilled we had that time together, and thrilled he had that extra time to bond with our daughter.

      I wish all three of you the very, very best.

  70. Matthew*

    I’m a new manager and struggling to decide if or how to address an issue with a member of my team who’s been in his role for about 5 months, who seems to have a lot of anxieties around things that seem to me to be more normal parts of working.

    Examples:
    (1) Got an outside offer to negotiate for better remote work, ended up staying. The day after the whole issue was resolved, he asked if a more junior person on a semi-related team knew about his counteroffer situation because he had been planning to work on a project with them, but his work had gotten bumped for a more time-sensitive topic.
    (2) We have a fortnightly meeting where a variety of projects are presented, and the presenters change depending on what the project is. When his projects aren’t on the agenda, he has asked if he should be worried about not presenting this time.
    (3) A formal feedback channel from a business partner suggested that he could further improve a specific technical skill, while also saying that he was doing well in it. (Think something like chess, relatively easy to learn but difficult to master.) He asked “Should I take this as saying I’m a bad [chess player]”?

    So far I’ve been really reassuring, addressing each one with specific “No need to worry, here’s what’s going on”, but I feel like it’s a pattern? He’s a good performer otherwise, not a superstar but solid.

    1. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Not sure what you’ve tried yet, but one thing you could try is giving him a) specific, positive feedback and/or b) an actionable level of skill/competence he should be at. From what you’ve described I can’t tell if he’s insecure or overly needy, but if he’s insecure then giving him a measurable set of standards to hold to can be very valuable (because then instead of thinking ‘I have to be good enough – what’s good enough?’ he can say ‘I need to be able to open and use Excel and Powerpoint, create an outline of a project from start to finish, and know five different chess opening moves by my six-month point’.

  71. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    I’ve got a time-sensitive query this morning! I’m actively job searching as I’m currently unemployed, and I’m in the running for 3 jobs I’d be very interested in. Two jobs are at the same pay level ($85-90k), and one is posted as $65-75k. That third, lower paying job has offered a final interview slot. Should I be upfront and ask whether there’s any flexibility in the posted salary range before scheduling the interview, or just wait and see if I’m offered the role? I would likely not accept the job unless they come $5-10k above the top of their posted range.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I would likely not accept the job unless they come $5-10k above the top of their posted range.

      In that case, you should definitely ask about flexibility in the salary range as soon as possible, so you aren’t wasting each other’s time.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Are you basing that $5-10k on your prior experience and general market expectations, or only on those other 2 listings? If the pay is generally below market then ask before scheduling.

      If you are setting that bar based on only the two other openings, or you know they are the far top end of the market, wait till you have an offer. You can’t know at this point whether the other 2 will move you forward or make an offer.

  72. Wolf*

    Anybody else just… really struggling with handling work plus everything else? I’m pregnant, the world’s on fire (sometimes literally), and I actually really like my job but aspects of it can get repetitive and sometimes I just… can’t make myself get out of bed. I have FMLA active right now related to my pregnancy, so I’m technically covered, but I’ve been absent once or twice a month and that can’t continue indefinitely. I take antidepressants and they help a lot, but the occasional pregnancy fatigue seems to be throwing me for a loop.

    2. Greengirl*

      Also pregnant and struggling with the state of the world. Honestly, out 1-2 times a month is reasonable for pregnancy. The fatigue is real! I would talk to your care team about your mental health to see if your medication can be adjusted and also if you can start talk therapy. Seeing a therapist during the worst of the pandemic really helped me with coping strategies as well as the meds.

    3. Jzilbeck*

      As a fellow pregnant person, 1-2 absences every month really isn’t much at all. The process is HARD on the body even with no complications, so be kind to yourself. Don’t be afraid to reach out and ask for help when you really need it, even if it means taking an afternoon off to nap.

    4. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      I am finding it all Too Much and do not have a pregnancy to consider! My heart goes out to you, it’s tough.

    5. Willow*

      I’m struggling majorly and am NOT pregnant. You are definitely not alone, and only being absent 1-2 a month is really seldom given your pregnancy! It is very normal to not want to get out of bed some days. To echo others, please be kind to yourself!

    6. New Mom*

      Pregnant with #2 and it’s our busy season at work, and then this week #1’s daycare closed due to COVID. I feel so spent. I’m really tired and it’s rough. I’m taking the state maximum of time off pre-pregnancy so I can HOPEFULLY relax for four weeks before #2 comes because I feel so depleted.

  73. Mortification week is over but*

    Someone posted a meme about enjoying slacking off to our team WhatsApp group. Which includes managers.

    I don’t know if it was intentional or if it was meant for a different group but it didn’t go down too well I think!

  74. Pick-Up-Sticks*

    TL;DR: is there a way to ask about keeping a remote job post-relocation if we’re not sure said relocation will happen?

    I live in a purple city in a deeply red state, and my husband and I are thinking about picking up stakes and moving somewhere I don’t feel like a second-class citizen. This comes after years of thinking “well, if everyone reasonable leaves, everything will only get worse, I should try to be the change, etc. etc.” but honestly after 10+ years while my city has gotten better, the state has gotten immeasurably worse and now that I have a family (and am thinking about expanding said family) I don’t know if I can take it anymore.

    All that said, both my husband and I work from home. He would REALLY like to keep his job (and he works with a team spread across the states, so it’s possible, although there are no employees/branches in the states we are thinking about moving to), while I am okay either way (I don’t LOVE my job but it pays the bills and has good health insurance).

    Is there a good way to start inquiring whether we would be able to keep a job post-move, when we’re not even 100% sure we will be moving? I’m afraid asking about it will result in a layoff in the near future (since in boss’s mind we wouldn’t be staying anyway) but it would really affect our thinking/options if we knew one way or another. I also don’t want to get into WHY we might be moving, especially to my job since it is located in such a conservative area and I don’t totally know my bosses’ feelings about a sensitive subject like RvW.

    (P.S. Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble, I have a really mild case of covid and it’s making my thinking a bit jumbled.)

    1. MCL*

      Do you have a place in mind that you’d like to move to? What’s the job market there like? Have any of your colleagues re-located successfully while staying employed where you are? I’d quietly reach out to them to see if they have insights. I’d also see if you can figure out if your employers have workers already in the state/s you are considering moving to, because then there’s already a business nexus there.

      1. Pick-Up-Sticks*

        We have a couple of places in mind, but are mostly looking at things from a political standpoint (i.e. we’d like to move to a mid-sized city in a purple state that is not at risk of removing abortion rights). There is a city that I’m particularly interested in as it would be good for my industry, but not for my husband’s. None of the places at the top of our list have any locations or employees for either of our companies. I will not move to a location that currently limits abortion access or has it on the docket, and those are the only places either of our jobs have locations unfortunately.

        My job is only WFH due to covid, so I feel like I’m more at risk of not being able to keep it but I’m also less invested in my job/company than he is in his.

    2. Alex*

      I don’t think asking about how to KEEP your job would result in your boss thinking you have one foot out the door. I would frame it as something like, what are the geographical limitations of remote work with this company? I’m thinking of making a change, but I’m not looking to leave and want to make sure that the changes are compatible with staying with the company.” Even if you aren’t totally dedicated to keeping the job, you can frame it as though you are.

      1. Pick-Up-Sticks*

        To me it runs the risk of sounding like “I’d like to move and keep my job, but if I can’t keep my job I’m still moving” (which is maybe true). My company is kind of on the rocks anyway so I have this weird feeling they may jump at a chance for an easy layoff and I don’t want to lose this job if I’m not leaving the state…

    3. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

      IF you trust your HR (big if) I would float a theoretical, asking if there are limits on where you can live a remote employee (such as distance from HQ, or being limited to in-state).

      1. Pick-Up-Sticks*

        I don’t trust my HR but I do have a very good rapport with my direct manager so I’m thinking about feeling her out about it.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I think there’s a way to ask your manager if there are limits on where you can live as a remote employee and imply “I’d like to move and keep my job, but if I can’t I’ll stay here and keep the job” (I know this isn’t likely to be true, but it’s similar to not telling your boss you’re job-searching until you’ve accepted an offer).

    4. Mill Miker*

      It might not work for your job (since you’ve mentioned the WFH is a covid measure), but for your husbands job: Are they hiring at all? The more actively/openly they’re hiring for remote work, the less “suspicious” it’s going to seem to ask HR if they have a list of states/cities where they will and won’t allow people to work from.

      Even if they’re not actively hiring, if you have any kind of open rapport with someone who would know, you could probably ask for curiosity’s sake. Instead of “if I move to ____, can I keep my job” something like “I just saw an article about remote work and tax nexus stuff, and I thought it was interesting and I’m curious what our restrictions look like”

      You’d probably want to double-check if you do confirm you want to move (to clear up “technical possible” vs. “okay for you, specifically”), but the general info could help you asses the risks.

  75. Avery*

    I know that when asked why you’re leaving one job for another, you shouldn’t badmouth your current/past company, but stating facts openly and without emotion may work.
    Would “my supervisor decided after a year that I cannot send any emails, including emails to coworkers or simple ‘thank you’ notes, without her reviewing the email and approving it, which would often take days if not weeks” count as an understandable reason to cite in an interview?
    If not, I’m not sure how to respond to this question. A year is long enough that I can’t simply leave the job off my resume, but short enough that I can’t just say I’m “looking for new challenges”. When the position varies from my current one in clear ways, I can certainly cite those, but when it’s otherwise a similar position, how can I explain that my supervisor’s management style just doesn’t work for me without it reflecting badly on myself?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think I’d go into that much detail, unless they press you. That said, maybe unpopular opinion, but I think it’s okay to say you were unhappy at your current place, as long as you don’t make it sound as if you were always unhappy at every previous employer.

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      Would mentioning that your manager shifted into a micromanager and that you work better in a freer situation?

    3. ecnaseener*

      Yes, but phrased more as “I’m looking for more independence in my next role. My current job has a culture of very close supervision – for example, requiring manager approval for every single email before it can be sent. I do much better work when I have some autonomy to handle day-to-day tasks myself.”

      1. Avery*

        Yeah, that makes sense. I knew my phrasing wasn’t perfect, but wasn’t sure what would be better–your phrasing is probably a lot more professional! Ironically, I usually tend towards liking more management oversight, just… not quite to this extreme, lol, especially when the micromanagement is coupled with slow responses from the very manager I’m waiting on.

    4. stressball*

      “After settling in over the past year, I’ve found that I’m looking for a role with more autonomy in X,Y ways than what my current management offers.”

    5. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I wouldn’t name anything specific like that because it can come off as you complaining. I would say that your manager started using more micormanagement techniques in a way that limited your ability to complete your work. OR something like that.

    6. Fabulous*

      I wouldn’t even mention the micromanaging because that could come across as “what did this person do for their manager to start doing this to them?” I’d possibly just say something to the effect of, “there was a change in management and the role is no longer what I am looking for.”

      1. Avery*

        “Change in management” sounds like I got a different manager, though… and I didn’t, she just changed her mind very abruptly about how much supervision I need after going AWOL for a week without warning.

        1. Fabulous*

          Maybe a “change in management style” or a “change to the role’s requirements” that no longer meet my needs. Anything to draw attention away from the question of why did the manager feel it necessary to make that change, what did this person do that required the advanced oversight – not that you did anything! Seems like it was just a manager going rogue, but this alternative language would help you just to avoid that line of questioning altogether.

  76. MCL*

    I’m chairing an interviewing team right now, and we’re conducting interviews for second-round candidates in the next week. What are your favorite types of questions to ask candidates? I know there are lots of job-specific ones, but what are the more general ones that you’ve asked or have been asked?

    1. Student*

      I like to use behavioral interviewing, which means mostly asking questions in the format of “Tell me about a time when…”. I find that this method of interviewing, by asking people to talk about a specific time they actually did something, keeps down a lot of interview bullshitting. Bullshitting is a serious problem/feature of my industry, and a lot of people who get far in it are good bullshitters.

      For the topic of the questions, I like to ask about experiences with major aspects of the job. I break it down into a couple of technical questions, a couple of soft skills questions. I try to make sure those questions are broad enough that anyone with reasonable experience in the field could answer them, instead of super-specific to a particular process.

      One of my favorite weird interview questions was “How do you handle ambiguity?” It worked really well in one specific job I held, because to succeed at that workplace, managers would often only give you the bare outline of a task and you were left to fill in a lot of detail yourself. Managers were not friendly to follow-up questions, or would not actually know how to fill in the details themselves. You also had to deal with not always knowing all the why-when-where-what-and-how of the project you were working on, because some of the work was classified and they tended to take an extremely (bizarrely) conservative approach to need-to-know. It’s not a question I’d ask for jobs that don’t have similar hurdles, though – and I sincerely hope most jobs aren’t like that.

  77. urguncle*

    A year ago, I transitioned from one department to another with a very different skill set. Given that I didn’t have any experience, I was put into a “junior” position with the promise that I would get a lot of support, additional training opportunities and clear definition of expectations.
    I know this will come as a surprise but, reader, none of this came to fruition. Nonetheless, I’ve exceeded in my work and achieved a lot in the year. Six months ago, I asked for competencies for the role to move out of the “junior” position and into a regular role, as well as a commensurate pay increase. I still have not received those competencies. I’ve talked to my boss, who seems to be on board for a promotion, but our H1 reviews keep getting delayed company-wide. I don’t feel like I can look for a new job since I’m also trying to have a child in my 30’s and don’t have a year to wait around. Do I go to HR? Keep bugging my boss?

  78. Koalafied*

    This is quite small potatoes, but it’s something I have been idly wondering about since going full-time remote about 5 years ago and continue to not really have a good answer to.

    For a weekly 1:1 check-in when both people are in the same physical location, the etiquette at my company has always been that the manager hosts the meeting in the manager’s office and the employee reports to the manager’s office at the scheduled start time. This is all very much the result of utility – the employee may or may not have a private office if they don’t have direct reports of their own, so it makes sense for the manager’s office to be the default location, and of course the way in-person meetings work is that the people in them show up to the meeting location at the appointed time.

    Likewise for meetings where there’s a dial-in number/link. Everyone joins the call at the appointed time.

    But what about 1:1 check-ins where you’re not using a dedicated URL that everyone goes to, but where one party is just ringing the other through something like Slack or Teams? Who should initiate the call? And should the other party proactively indicate that they’re ready to receive the call first, or wait for the manager to take the lead?

    I’m a manager myself so I’m on both ends of this and both of them always feel a bit off. On one hand it feels a bit presumptuous to be the one to initiate the call when I don’t “own” the meeting, and a bit demanding to chat her at 1:30 on the dot to say, “ready to meet!” – almost like I’m impatient or think she might have forgotten if I don’t remind her, especially if she might just be running a few minutes late. (In the office, I would have arrived at her office with the door closed if she was still on another call that was running long, and she would have signaled me through the glass wall to wait before entering.)

    On the other hand, I also always feel a bit vaguely like if we were in the office, she can visibly see that I’ve arrived and am ready to meet with her, so wouldn’t the virtual equivalent of that be me sending a message to let her know I’m ready? Or are the only virtual options essentially “walking straight into her office without waiting to make sure she’s ready” (proactively letting her know I’m ready to begin) and “making her have to chase me down to start the meeting?” (waiting for her to ask if I’m ready).

    Again, small potatoes – ultimately I don’t much care which way my report does it and I don’t think my manager cares much either, but just as a question of principle I always wonder what the default “rule” should be.

    1. Fabulous*

      Do you not have the Teams add-in for Outlook? In our org, whoever schedules the meeting usually puts in a link to a teams meeting that all parties use, regardless of whether it’s only 2 people or more. As a general rule though, I’d imagine whoever schedules the call should be the one to initiate the meeting day of. If it’s with someone higher than you, maybe ping them at the start time and say “ready to meet?”

    2. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I think it depends on what each person needs. So maybe 10 minutes before the scheduled time chat the boss and say I’m ready whenever you are, just give me a ring, and then the boss calls.

      I think this makes the most sense because the boss is more likely to have last-minute things or be on other calls that you don’t want to interrupt. On the flip side if you don’t chat the boss (because you got hung up with a client or another meeting) the boss can chat the same thing and then you call them.

    4. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      For my 1:1s that are calls (not video), I put in the Location line, “So and So to call Lunch Eating Mid Manager at _____ [preferred number for that day]”, or, the opposite, if I am running around and not sure I’ll be ready at the exact start time.

    5. Student*

      I like holding 1-on-1 phone meetings on a teleconference line or dedicated room just to avoid this issue. My employer gives out both very freely. I know that’s not the case everywhere, though.

      If you can’t use a teleconference line or online meeting room, then the person requesting the meeting should be the one to make the call. If you want something else, as a manager you have every right to tell the employee to initiate the call – just make that clear. I know you don’t care, but I think you’d be doing your employees a favor by just picking one specific option and communicating it.

      You also have the classic text-before-call option as a compromise. You can text them, or ask them to text you, prior to initiating the call. I do this a lot when I need to reach someone with short notice. “Hey, can I give you a call?” is my go-to. For your planned meeting, “Hey, I’m available – let me know when you’re ready for me to start the call.” would work, or some variant.

    6. Wordybird*

      When my manager is asking for the meeting (or if it was a regularly scheduled 1:1), I would expect her to Slack me when she was ready. If I was asking for the meeting, I would Slack her.

    7. rosyglasses*

      When a meeting is being set up at our company, we include that information in the invite. For example, if I ask a Jr Teapot Designer if we can meet to discuss the yellow dots on this year’s designs, I’ll confirm, “Monday at 3pm PST in my zoom room!”

      If someone slacks me and asks me for a meeting and we decide on a time and haven’t confirmed a place, I’ll ask in the moment – should I join your zoom or would you like to use mine? Or at the appointed time, “How would you like to chat today? Phone, Slack Call, or Your Zoom?”

  79. work sucks, i know*

    I’m returning to work in just over a week after being off on STD/FMLA for 3 weeks due to stress/burnout medical issues. I’m finding the closer my return to work date gets, I am getting a little stressed about my ability to go back and be a good performer. I’ve been at the same company for 8 years and have a pretty good reputation- but I want to intentionally …not sure how to phrase this- be…not as good as I used to be? I want to set boundaries, I want to care less, I want to firmly and fiercely not allow myself to slip back into the mindset of ‘do whatever it takes at whatever the cost to keep your wheel turning and look good in the office.’ I’m no longer willing to maintain my image of competency at the expense of my health, but I’m not sure what that looks like. Has anyone undergone a reframing of their mindset along these lines? Have you intentionally stepped back and stopped caring, and what tools/tricks did you use?

    1. WellRed*

      I think one way to start is to look at what created a lot of the stress and then set hard boundaries. Did you have to stay late or work weekends and now you are sticking to 9 to 5? Did you skip lunch and breaks? Was there a task that got dumped on you that needs to be offloaded? Do you want people to stop texting your personal phone when you are out?

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Personally, I set my boundaries on time. No work before it is time to start the work day, no work during my lunch break, and no work after the end of the work day. You can be as hard of a worker as you want to be when you’re “on the clock” but as soon as you’re off, you’re off. At 5pm, set aside any unfinished work and tell yourself “this can all wait until tomorrow.” Because it can and it will.

      This is easiest if you work (1) in the office and (2) with other people who work reasonable hours. It can be tricky if you work in person and all your coworkers arrive early/stay late/never break for lunch. It can also be tricky if you work from home.

      If you work from home, turn off your laptop at the end of the day. And turn off or silence your work phone, if you have one, and leave it in a drawer/somewhere you won’t be tempted to check it.

    3. Not A Girl Boss*

      One thing that helped me was to set goals that I can achieve, to make it feel better to do less. For example, I made it a goal to say “no” once a week. And also made a goal not to volunteer for anything.
      The last thing that helped was having a good reason to leave work on time, for example scheduling an exercise class that started shortly after my end time.

    4. Anon For This*

      I recommend thinking of what you need to help out your mental health and go in with the attitude of “Of course that’s a reasonable thing to do”, rather than feeling like you shouldn’t be doing these reasonable things. (I believe Alison has a few other posts on this concept/mindset.) I went through a rough patch at work a while back. I realized that getting my full breaks at decent times was important, so I had the attitude that “of course I’m going to get a 30 minute lunch break every day at a reasonable time” – that time may vary a bit if needed, but then I’ll take the full 30 mins and not feel bad about it, because I know that I need that mental break to be okay the rest of the day. (I have the same attitude with the occasional cell phone break/FB scrolling – it’s helpful to not think about work for a few mins, so I can come back with a better focus.) I also aim to leave at the same time each day (I’m salaried) and don’t check work email when I’m not at work. If something comes up, then my bosses know that I’ll stay as needed, but I’m regularly out the door at X time, and they have my cell number on the rare occasion they need to get ahold of me outside of work hours. Good luck!

    5. Mac*

      Sometimes a vivid visual helps. A tube of toothpaste is much less useful if you just squeeze everything out all at once. Imagine your energy as that toothpaste, and you are being a normal, responsible adult by just squeezing out a little bit each day, and not making a spectacular Ramona Quinby-style toothpaste mountain in the bathroom sink.

  80. Not A Girl Boss*

    I have 5 (5!!!!!!!) job offers coming in today… and all I feel is existential dread.

    My last two jobs have been horrible and I’m looking to jump ship from this one after a year (job before that I lasted 11 months, then they decided they don’t like remote and wanted me to move across the country). So I know that if I make a bad call again, I really really have to live with it for a while or I’ll be forever branded a job hopper. And I just… am at a loss for how to assess whether a job is any good anymore. I’m so petrified of making the wrong call.

    I actually wrote a Friday Good News post about my “green flags” interview process last year. And it turned out to be a well constructed facade.

    Since a month into that job, I’ve been routinely working 6-7 12-hour days every single week. They have been trying to hire me an assistant the entire time I’ve been at this job and not been able to find anyone, so it’s fallen on me to do two people’s jobs. The CEO wrote an email to the whole company about how amazing I am, but nice emails don’t pay the therapy bills. When I tried to cut back my hours after having a mental breakdown or two or three, I got a negative review and a lot of long drawn out lectures about how important it is I get to “at least all the core responsibilities of my job”. When I asked for a raise, basically to cover the cost of outsourcing everything about my life except the work itself, my boss’ boss hauled me into his office and proceeded to belittle me for over an hour about all the ways I’ve ever come up short and don’t deserve a raise, how “I put the company in an awkward position” by daring to ask for an out-of-cycle review, and how “no one asked you to work all those hours, anyway.”
    I started tracking all my hours, and bringing priority lists to my boss and asking him what I should do differently in my week. He kept repeating that my priorities and the amount I was accomplishing in a day “looked right” and he didn’t want to “micromanage me”. But then the next day, there’d be another long email in my inbox about how I need to make time for xyz.
    The stress is literally killing me. I’ve gained 50 pounds. I’ve developed terrible anxiety and depression, I’m exhausted but lay awake at night dreading the next day. My husband described my transformation as “melting into a puddle of my former self.” Obviously, I’m no longer bringing my best self to work – I’m stressed, constantly late to meetings, and snap at people when they follow up on things I’m behind on delivering to them.
    The final straw was my latest performance review. They said I needed to “work on my delivery of no” and that I come across as uncaring when people ask me for help on their tasks. And they dinged me again for not getting my “core work” done. Then, instead of the 10% raise I was promised 6 months ago, they gave me this “highly prized” “we only give this to our top performers” “super secret” bonus thingie…. That doesn’t pay out unless I stay for SIX MORE YEARS, and since it’s stocks, could be anywhere from $500-50,000, nobody knows. (Side note, they’ve increased the assistant job posting to a advertise a salary of $20k more than I make as a principle.

    At that point, I basically decided that anywhere else I ended up next had to be better than this, and threw myself into applying. Hence 5 job offers. But I think my confidence in myself, and also the larger picture “being an employee in America right now”, is just so eroded that it’s impossible to feel hope.

    2. Koalafied*

      So I know that if I make a bad call again, I really really have to live with it for a while or I’ll be forever branded a job hopper.

      Just want to say, please do not think this, and please do not stay in a truly bad situation if you find yourself in one, purely to extend your tenure past some arbitrary mark.

      One – even back in the day, expectations of how long you’ll stay in a role were always a fairly industry-dependent norm, and in some industries a year-long stay at a junior role has always been totally normal.

      Two – even back in the day when many managers would talk about “job hopping” it was rarely the kind of cardinal sin that would get your resume tossed in the No pile. It was just something you could expect to be asked about in an interview, and if your reasons sounded sane and rational and not like you have some serious “everywhere I go everyone else is the problem” blinders on, a couple of short stays would not be held against you. “Company hired me remote and then wanted me to move across the country to work in office” is a completely understandable reason to leave a job and any manager who would hold that against you is not one you want to work for. So is, “the hours turned out to be much more demanding than I’d been told they would be, and have proven to be unsustainable.”

      Three – with each passing year, the norms around this have been relaxing across most (maybe even all? but I wouldn’t be able to say) fields, so even ones that used to be more alarmed by a series of short stays have gotten more and more accustomed to seeing a series of short stays in an early career work history.

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Thank you. I think probably a lot of that fear is internal – I feel like a failure by “quitting” on two jobs in a row, like maybe it really is me and not them. But it’s helpful to list all the rational reasons why job hopping isn’t quite as unforgivable to others as it might feel to me.

    3. WellRed*

      In a year you’ve developed anxiety and gains 50 pounds (essentially one a week). You’ve been berated and mislead. All the money in the world won’t fix this. Take your time to consider all job offers thoroughly. But get out of your current job.

    4. Sherm*

      Oof, you gotta get out of there. Your health is at stake. I get that you don’t know what to believe, when a field of green flags was just a charade. Once bitten, twice shy. But most companies really don’t manage that success of covering all their flaws. In addition to your notes and your instincts, you can check out Glassdoor, or see if you know anyone who already works there and ask for a heads-up.

      Besides, job hopping, although not *ideal*, is not instant career sabotage. I know people who quit jobs without anything lined up (which I know is not the same, but it’s another supposed no-no) and went on to bigger heights in their careers.

    5. Workerbee*

      I commiserate over the gaslighting and toxicity. It can do a number on one’s sense of self. Perhaps actively search for articles on combating job PTSD and reclaiming your belief that a company would be lucky to have you.

      When you pick one of the new jobs, and it is “when,” make sure you allow for at least a week between ending your current job and starting the new one. If you can!

    6. Kira*

      There’s unfortunately no way to know from the outside what a job is like, here are some things you could do to reassure yourself a bit if you haven’t done them already:
      – talk to more than 1 coworker and ideally people below you on the org chart as well (as they say, sh!t flows downwards)
      – lean into any connections you may have. Do you know someone who knows someone who works/worked there?
      – make sure to ask why the previous person left the position (ask the coworkers too, not just the boss!). Or if it’s a new role, talk to different people about their expectations for what you’ll accomplish and on what timeline.
      – Glassdoor is not perfect but if all the reviews follow a certain trend it can be helpful for identifying ongoing issues.

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Thanks. The last time I did ask why the role was open, and they said due to growth. Turns out, they’d just fired the person before me for fraud (he was manipulating metrics to get his bonuses, at the expense of customers), so I walked into a total disaster. But I guess I could have dove deeper into what they meant by growth, since that’s pretty vague.

        1. kiki*

          I think it’s easy to look back and blame yourself for not delving deeper or asking just the right questions, but honestly I think what you said here indicates that no amount of asking you could do would have lead to you having the honest truth about this position. The company lied when they said growth. Replacing a position somebody was fired from is in no way “growth.” From your previous post, it seems like this company talks all the right talk but isn’t actually the environment they claim to be.

          I’m in a similar boat. The manager who hired me at the company work for definitely wanted to overhaul their department’s culture. I think he genuinely wanted my workplace to be the way he described it to me and thought he could transform it. That manager was unceremoniously ousted less than 6 months after I joined and all his initiatives were scrapped. I feel hopeless sometimes– I really thought this job would be the perfect fit for me and how can I ever know if any companies I apply to are being truthful? I think the key for me in my current job search is to take everything a company claims and assume it will be at least 20% worse– am I going to be paid enough to deal with that? Will I have enough PTO and benefits to help me deal with that?

  81. AnotherLibrarian*

    As Alex pointed out, I don’t think this is ageism. Ageism is a systematic issue- firing people when they hit 60, not hiring people over a certain age (or only hiring people under a certain age, though that’s not illegal), etc. I do think it can apply to younger people, but the law doesn’t cover that.

    This just a person being annoying. Not that that’s okay, because it sounds like it’s super frustrating. Personally, I have no idea what your coworkers would or wouldn’t shut down, but I can say that in my experience, relying on other people to step up and tell someone else to stop being a jerk is almost never a successful tactic. Also, they are not experiencing it the way you are. For you, you notice every time it happens. For your coworkers, they might just not be paying that much attention. Anyhow, I think the only way to deal with it is to speak up as others have said.

  82. Eric*

    How can I get a work from home job?

    Most of my friends have these weird work from home jobs where they don’t seem to do anything. They just clock in in the morning, reply to an occasional email, listen to a zoom call once or twice a week and that’s it.

    One of my friends literally pays her mom to clock in for her in the mornings so she can sleep in or travel. And she gets like $80k/year

    Right now I work in person, and I’m on my feet for 8 hours a day running around the office and warehouse. If I have a few minutes of slow time, I get told to do something to fill my time, etc.

    Working from home would change my life, I’d save so much time and money and I’d be able to work out and do my hobbies while “working”

    What/where exactly can I search to find these types of work from home jobs where you get paid a lot of money to basically do nothing?

    1. Eric*

      In terms of skills, I have several years of experience in warehouse management, supply chain management, operations management, printing and production, etc. I’m trained in Excel, Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop, graphic design, and a bunch of other things.

      I just don’t know where to look.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      The questions to start with are:

      – what job titles/roles do your friends have?
      – what companies do they work for?
      – what schooling/training/career path did they go through to end up in those roles at those companies?

      1. Eric*

        That’s the problem, they all have vague titles like coordinator or administrator, and they all have generic degrees like communications or sociology.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I think the two directions to go in from here are:

          1) Go to a big job board like Indeed and search for “coordinator” or “administrator” and filter by “work-from-home.” Apply to any of the jobs you look qualified for.

          2) Go to the “careers” page on the websites of the companies your friends work for and apply for the “coordinator” and “administrator” jobs there.

    3. WellRed*

      I think there’s a book called bullshit jobs you might find amusing. I wouldn’t be so sure your friends won’t ultimately get caught if they actually aren’t working how they should.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know about jobs where you do nothing, but you can certainly get a less stressful and physically demanding work-from-home job by just looking for office jobs that ask for the computer skills you already have (Excel, Adobe CS). Maybe something in communications?

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I don’t know about the doing nothing, having time for hobbies, AND making $80k but graphic design jobs can certainly be WFH. You could sign up for a placement company like Creative Circle or Aquent to help you. I’m guessing your friends are more in decision-maker or consulting jobs — they don’t do the work, they make sure the work gets done.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      I’ve worked from home for a decade, and I most certainly do not basically do nothing. Nor is that the case for my colleagues who also work from home. Hundreds of us.
      It sounds like your friends may work for giant enough corporations that they can’t actually tell if they’re doing any work or not? But this is not the case for most WFH jobs.

    7. just another queer reader*

      1. It sounds like at least one of your friends is behaving unethically, for what it’s worth. I doubt she’ll be able to continue like that for long before running into big problems.

      2. You’ve described the great paradox of work: sometimes, those with the easiest jobs get paid the most.

    8. Irish Teacher*

      Honestly, I think there are two issues here, work from home versus in person and jobs where people don’t have much to do versus jobs where people have a lot of work. Is it the working from home part you really want or do you want to have less to do? Those are two very separate issues.

      Working from home does not mean you would be able to work out while working. There may be work from home jobs where you can do that but there are also work from home jobs where you would be working 8 or more hours a day. And there are in-office jobs where people spend a lot of time online or chatting to coworkers.

      Getting a work from home job doesn’t necessarily mean you will have less responsibilties. Yeah, you would save time and money but…it’s quite possible you’d be working harder as it’s harder to switch off when you don’t have a “leave the office” time.

      And yeah, it sounds like the friend who is asking her mum to clock in for her doesn’t have an easy job; she’s just not doing it. No different from the person working “in-person” who calls in sick regularly or spends their time pretending to work but is really scrolling facebook. And as others have said, her bosses will probably find out eventually. That’s not so much a specific job you can get as a matter of are you willing to accept probably losing your job if your boss finds out in order to get away with doing nothing while supposedly working?

  83. BalanceofThemis*

    Looking for advice on leaving the non-prpfit sector, specifically museums and galleries, into the private sector/corporate world?

    My area has been coordinating programs, if that helps.

    1. pancakes*

      I’m not sure, but I look at Artnet pretty often for art news and they sometimes have articles about art advisors, private sector trends, etc. Will link separately.

      1. pancakes*

        Looks like the link got stuck. The article is titled “As the Art Industry Has Ballooned, So Has the Number of People Claiming to Be Expert Advisors. Here’s How to Tell If They Actually Are,” and has a number of links within.

    2. MuseAnne*

      I’ve got nothing from a personal perspective, but there’s some discussion about this on the Museum 2.0 blog, with two recent posts on it. The gist is that we have a lot of transferable skills that can be articulated for other industries.

      Check out @artlust on twitter – she’s been talking about this and her own experience a lot lately.

    3. just another queer reader*

      You might look into “training” or “talent development” type jobs. Imo, it’s similar to teaching/ event planning.

  84. West Coaster*

    I’m wondering if anyone is in a similar position as me – I’m a middle aged white guy who is liberal in a very progressive field in a very progressive region, and I’m finding myself being more moderate than a lot of people in my field – like I’m a New York Times liberal and not a, I dunno, more hardcore 24 year old progressive.

    I am open to learning and changing my mind, I read the books and articles, I go to the trainings, but more and more I’m feeling a bit out of step with some of the current ideology/jargon/etc. in my field. I have some cynicism from being raised in this area, and I am also older (and whiter, and straighter) than a lot of my colleagues. I’m not assuming I’m right and they are wrong, but I’m just not as far left as a lot of folks in my field.

    Has anyone experienced this, and how do you handle it, besides just keeping your pie-hole shut?

    1. Nicki Name*

      I’m a moderate liberal myself, and the way I handle it is to embrace my moderate instincts by telling myself that times change, language changes, and to just go with the flow.

    2. Very very white boomer*

      Keep your pie-hole shut.
      I just tell myself- its not my turn to speak.
      I do not offer any unsolicited advice or commentary.

      1. Angstrom*

        Yup. The world is full of things that are none of my business.
        My colleagues need me to be friendly, polite and professional. They don’t need my opinions about topics other than work.

      2. West Coaster*

        That’s good advice. I think what I struggle with sometimes is that there is pressure to adopt all the jargon and be the wokest person in the room, and that is just Not Me (and I often feel like it isn’t super helpful). I remain respectful, will use the language that seems appropriate in a given situation, try and do me, and nod politely when my colleagues get done trashing white guys and say, ‘but not you – you’re one of the good ones.’

        1. RagingADHD*

          A lot of that is also down to the difference between being 24 and being middle aged.

          Competing to see who is the most (insert valued trait here) is just what 20-somethings do. And older folks have always found it hard to take seriously, because it always involves a lack of self-awareness and cognitive flexibility that comes from life experience.

          The traditional way to deal with it without shaming their enthusiasm is to admire their passion for making the world a better place (as they see it). Whether or not their passion is actually going to accomplish anything positive is another matter.

          Most of us have a lot more enthusiasm than effectiveness in our 20s. It’s the human condition.

        2. Very very white boomer*

          “trashing the white guys” if by that you mean there is a conversation that include mention of the patriarchy and sexism or the years of oppression many workers have had to face, not much of the diversity training or reading has sunk in. And it is you.

        3. Blitzberg*

          As a middle aged, straight white guy, you have had a completely different life experience. You can’t actually put yourself in someone’s shoes, because you’ll never have the same experience. But you can try to expand your empathy even more – what would it look like if you spent some time imaging yourself as a queer non-white person, or someone stuck in the cycle of poverty? Privilege does not mean that your life has not been hard! It just means that there were things you never had to consider or face because of your white/straight/maleness. It sounds like you’re trying to keep up, but are tired. I know it’s tiring. Privilege means getting to set this stuff down when we’re tired.

          Treating your co-workers with respect is the minimum. Make sure you’re hiring, promoting, and listening to queer/BIPOC/women about their experience. And if all you can contribute is your silence, then I guess that’s for the best.

        4. pancakes*

          I don’t trust the narrative of people who say things like “trashing white guys” because when examples are supplied there never, ever turns out to have been trashing.

          I’m not sure I follow as to what the problem is if your coworkers think you are “one of the good ones.” Would you rather they didn’t?

        5. West Coaster*

          When I said “trashing white guys” I was being cavalier. People are going to share there experience and vent their frustrations and people who share my identity will most likely be the target of their frustration, which is fine. I mean, the reason people are frustrated isn’t fine, but I’m not going to catch feelings about people being frustrated by a bunch of old men (and I guess some women?) who don’t understand how women’s bodies work making laws about them, or whatever. They frustrate the hell out of me. Frankly I think there is something deeply wrong with my demographic. However, I think it can get to a point where it just becomes an us/them oppositional framework that isn’t super helpful, especially in a workplace where you have a variety of identities working together. “Men suck” is a valid feeling, it’s not a great thing to be saying at the workplace at a certain point.

          And being told “i’m one of the good ones” is simultaneously rewarding (I am trying really hard not to be an a$$hole, and being an a$$hole is an option readily available to old white guys) and condescending.

          Again, I try to lean into the discomfort and change my beliefs or views if my understanding changes, but some of it I don’t agree with and I think in my field especially there has been an attempt to address the harms that have been happening at a federal level by trying to be as socially just and progressive as possible at a local and individual level.
          Anyways, I appreciate all the feedback. Didn’t mean to come off as a d**k, perhaps still am one.

          1. pancakes*

            Being cavalier about this stuff is often not a good way to be understood or understand others.

            “and people who share my identity will most likely be the target of their frustration, which is fine” – I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “my identity.” Being white and male is not a set of politics. Former President Trump and Neil Young, for example, are both white men of approximately the same age, and any white guy claiming to identify strongly with both probably be pretty lacking in self-awareness, and the major characteristics of one or the other. Your politics are not actually tethered to your age or ethnicity, and aren’t mandatory for men who look like you and were born around the same time. Your coworkers seem to be cognizant of that, since you say they describe you as “one of the good ones.” It’s fair to say that feels condescending. It sounds pretty condescending. But it also seems like you almost want to lean into seeing yourself as White Guys as an identity more than they want to pin all of white men’s historic problems and etc. on you? Something to think about.

            In the meantime, I don’t think you have to try to balance the books, so to speak, in terms of whether you’re mostly a good guy or not before asking them to cut back on politics and social justice talk at work. Even people who totally agree with one another on this stuff don’t necessarily want to talk about it endlessly.

          2. Despachito*

            “Men suck” is as a valid feeling as “women suck”.

            You are right that this is not OK, and telling you that “you are one of the good ones” is very similar as if someone says “women are stupid, but you are an exception”, meant as a sincere compliment.

            You should not lean over backwards to persuade yourself this is OK. It isn’t. I know that white males have traditionally been more privileged, but what we want to achieve (at least I hope) is NOT to humiliate them to get revenge, but treat all people as equals and partners of the same value, irrespective of their complexion or gender. And two wrongs do not make one right.

      3. Prospect Gone Bad*

        Sometimes you have to say something. I literally had people talking about Hillary vs. Trump over my head in the open office twice and I asked them to move, and they thought I was being testy!

      4. Janet*

        I second the idea of “keeping your pie hole shut”. The way you phrase things like “trashing white guys” without providing an example and your self deprecating manner tells me that you want to be seen as someone that is progressive but is unwilling to bear the discomfort of what that entails as a white male. If you can’t handle the discomfort, it’s understandable. A lot of white or otherwise privileged people are in the same boat, but again the best thing you can do is to step aside in this case. It seems like you have quite a bit of room to listen, reflect, and show some empathy.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I am far more liberal than most of my family and neighbors, and noticeably more conservative than my coworkers. I spend a lot of time saying, “Hm, in what way?” Or “How so?” Or “I see,” or “I’ve been hearing a lot about that. What do you think?”

      Learn what the jargon means. Be kind and personally warm and courteous to people. When opinions you are out of step with come up at work? Piehole. Shut.

      Talk about it with your close friends and SO.

    4. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I don’t know how helpful this is, but generally being a news junkie helps. If someone is going to question me, and I watched the current hearings and speeches and read some of the text of bills, then the other person can’t attack or question you just based on a few talking points from the internet.

      This is a much larger societal issue IMO where everyone thinks they’re an expert on everything because they read a tweet.

      I miss the 90s or earlier when the only people who discussed politics were people who truly followed it

    5. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Aren’t most young people (like younger than 30) more liberal/progressive and fired up about things in general? Seems normal that we mellow or moderate our perspectives and concerns as we get older, have mortgages, kids, and are trying to save for whatever retirement we can manage to scrape up.

      As to being woke or feeling some need to keep up, I’d just say to always keep an open mind about whatever the youth are thinking/doing. Be respectful, trey to see their viewpoint, and don’t discount what they say because they’re young. Every generation will see and want to remake the world in their own way. We were all there once too.

    7. pancakes*

      The opposite for me, I have been moving more and more left from the NYT over time, and the p-word you use doesn’t resonate with me any longer (and hasn’t for some time) as a result. A lot of people categorized as progressive in the US aren’t particularly progressive by the standards of the rest of the world; for many it would be more accurate to say they are committed centrists. In some places they might be Christian Democrats or something, like Angela Merkel. I would say, though, that feeling out of step with a particular publication or, more broadly, popular bits of rhetoric, doesn’t necessarily mean you are indeed out of step with the broad ideas or categories they claim to represent or be serving the interests of, if that makes sense. Maybe have a look around and see what seems more fitting, if the books and articles you’re encountering don’t feel fitting. The landscape does change over time. People in their early and mid-twenties are often inexperienced, though, wherever they are on the continuum.

      I’m not clear on whether you want to keep your pie-hole shut because you don’t want to be dragged into tedious discussions with coworkers you know you won’t find persuasive, or just don’t want to hear it, or because you’re concerned they’d be less welcoming, or some other reason or combination of reasons. I think it’s fine to not talk about these things at work, within reason. (I mean, there are rules around trying to prohibit conversations about unionizing, etc.). For the most part I’m all for not having exhausting or angry discussions with coworkers about things we’ll never agree on! I can’t tell whether your coworkers are trying to draw you into conversation or to what extent.

    8. Ginger Pet Lady*

      You very much come off as someone doing the lip service and pretending, instead of doing the deeper, personal work. Very much a “I try to be nice to the libs but I really want MY interests protected and that’s not happening.”
      The fact that you talk about “trashing white guys” tells me you care more about your own interests than about making important structural changes to society.
      When white guys have been dominant for centuries, raising others to be their equal can feel like a demotion. It’s not. And that can be hard to accept, but it’s worth the deeper work. Because your value should not come from having others lesser than you, white man.

      1. Prospect Gone Bad*

        Granted, we aren’t privy to the conversations there. I would shut down most discussions on race at work in my team. They sometimes touch on politics but I only allow factual stuff. For example, repeating what someone just said in the news. There is too much room for these things to go wrong. One person starts saying their bit, unwarranted, someone else tries to shut down the conversation, then they get a response like you wrote.

        Now I have employees who are angry with each other and no longer cooperate. Maybe an HR complaint. All taking us far away from our company mission.

      2. Despachito*

        Trashing ANY group, including a privileged one, is bad and non-constructive, and take the one thrashed on a guilt trip because they did not do enough deep work sounds very much like chutzpah. Sorry for the strong word, but would you really want to bend over backwards because someone tars you with the same brush as some d..cks who happen to share certain traits with you?

        Inequality certainly IS a problem and should be addressed, but it very much depends HOW. And lashing out at innocent people who are “guilty” only by being born privileged is NOT a good solution.

        1. Books and Cooks*

          Yeah, I’m really trying to figure out how ANY conversation that surrounds race and ends with telling a member of that race that they are “one of the good ones,” is somehow legitimate and acceptable, and it’s the fault of the “good one” that he describes the conversation as “trashing [people of that race/group/class]?” That he is the problem for finding it a bit uncomfortable or offensive, and he should shut up and accept that he deserves to hear that sort of thing?

          I don’t care what race the person is. That is not cool. The mere FACT that his co-workers needed to tell him that he is “one of the good ones” indicates they KNOW they were crossing a line and saying offensive things. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t need to say that.

    9. MagnusArchivist*

      I have a friend who is in the same boat (mid-40s, white, male, liberal) and we just had a conversation about this, which happened because I’m more radical about certain things than he is. But he’s always a good, respectful listener and I know I can share my views without getting damaging our friendship — like we can actually have a conversation about something without it turning into him berating me or trying to win an argument. He said hopes he’s always surprised by younger people getting more inclusive and discovering new things. Like, if younger people stop inventing, learning, and progressing, then what’s the point of society? (He said it better, I’m paraphrasing here).

      And yes, he also knows when to shut his pie-hole because this isn’t about him. A truly valuable skill.

      [this isn’t really a work-related response, but you could absolutely take this approach with coworkers, too]

    10. Analyst Editor*

      I’m a woman but in a similar boat. That meme thad Mr. Musk popularized really resonated with me, and I imagine with you too.
      I think it’s important to hold fast against the crazies; not engage on really inflammatory topics, and offer measured counter-points when someone gets carried away. It’s important to normalize this, and help maintain a neutral workplace that fosters tolerance across political lines.

      This will be a support to a lot of your colleagues, many more than you think, of all demographics, who might not want to speak out against the loudest and most extreme.

      If you’re in an office or place where literally everyone is extremely progressive and will sh*t on you for disagreeing, and thinks it’s ok to make disparaging comments about your race and gender to your face, then make plans to leave. I recommend to an office with older population of workers. I went from a young company to a middle-age-staffed company and honestly, it was a breath of fresh air.

      1. pancakes*

        Everything you suggest is undermined by calling people who disagree with your politics “crazies,” and by professing admiration for the comedic stylings of a guy who is frequently under SEC investigation for his tweets, is presently trying to get out from under the obligations of his 2018 settlement with the SEC (the terms of which included a $20 million fine and the appointment of a “twitter sitter” for him), and who nonetheless, as of July 14, reportedly evaded SEC questioning over more recent tweets for as long as two weeks. And who sometimes expresses himself with a poo emoji. He is someone who reveres being inflammatory to the point of self-injury. Eagerly agreeing with some fairly extreme stances and expressing eagerness to advance them at work is not consistent with avoiding inflammatory conversations (with “crazies”) or offering “measured counter-points,” and hard to understand, as “crazies” does not suggest “engages with measured counter-points thoughtfully and with interest”; nor do OP’s descriptions of the level of discourse in his workplace.

        You can’t possible have gathered far more information about the coworkers from the few paragraphs above than the rest of us, to the point of being able to say that deliberately and pointedly continuing to engage with these coworkers politically “will be a lot of support to your colleagues.”

        Similarly, I don’t agree that it’s measured or non-inflammatory to suggest that middle-aged people share a set of politics on account of their age. I’m middle-aged. So was the law firm partner I worked with who would make extremely disparaging (and funny, and to be clear, reflecting sentiments widely shared in the office) comments about a certain Texas senator whenever he appeared on the TV that was always on low in a certain lounge area. So are many millions of people in the city I live in. The fact that you don’t encounter us / them in your day to day life doesn’t mean we’re / they’re not out here.

    11. Mac*

      Hi, hardcore progressive here. I love that you say you are open-minded and willing to listen. I’ve definitely met plenty of folks in your position who aren’t, so that’s not nothing! I do think in terms of “handling” the disconnect, it might be useful for you to reframe the things that you dismiss as faddish or jargony. Having the language to describe your life experience is a crucial part of being a whole, healthy human being, and one that has been denied to many people for a long time. If the old way of doing things seems good enough to you, that’s probably because it did, in fact, work pretty well for you. Which is fine! That doesn’t make you bad, it just means that you don’t need that new stuff as badly as more marginalized people might. So I think my advice is to just remember that even if some people might be ‘overdoing it’ or taking things more seriously than you would, that doesn’t negate the fact that at it’s core, the ability to express oneself and have the words to put to all those weird, nameless aches of life– that is a lifesaving tool, and deeply important. If people want to play with it and have fun with it and maybe be a little too intense sometimes, that’s fine– play is an important part of learning and evolution. It’s still fundamentally important work, even if the methods look silly sometimes

  85. Recovering Work-a-holic*

    Every once in awhile over the years Friday open thread would come around and I would beg for advice on how to work less. And never took it.
    I am fortunate enough to have a job that is my avocation as well as work/work.
    I am also unfortunate enough to have a chronic condition that at times incapacitates me.
    Earlier in my career, I solved this anxiety (of missing work suddenly) by being a superstar performer who is “missing in action at times” I always met deadlines, said yes, and went above and beyond the call of duty.
    Fast-forward to Covid times. I am in a super-at-risk category.
    Worked from home, the first year on all cylinders pretty much until May 2021.
    Then a big loss, grief, physical illness, and now.
    I am coasting.
    I do not work weekends and I might look at emails after 6 but do not respond.
    When I am in a lot a pain, I just don’t work. I do not “make up the time”
    I have pushed all work that doesn’t require my specific expertise to my reports.
    I am also not meeting deadlines for division reports (and find out that despite pressure from above, NO One hands them in in a timely manner)
    I rarely say yes to anything “above and beyond” as in “can you cover?” “Can you train?” Can you meet?” ” Can you consult?”

    The question: Despite what I consider my “lack of engagement” and slacker attitude a year and half later, there seems to be no repercussions. I received an “exceeds expectations” on my last performance review a month ago. If it helps, I am at the highest level of promotion and am satisfied with my salary.
    I feel some anxiety but not enough to motivate me.
    Should I just accept that what I do is enough until anyone from on high tells me otherwise?

    1. WellRed*

      Maybe? One thing to consider: others in your workplace are also struggling so don’t notice or care that you are doing (you feel) less.

    2. irene adler*

      What more **should** you be doing to qualify as ‘doing enough’? Cuz I don’t see this myself.

      For most of what you write, you are effectively getting the job done in spite of your physical issues and emotional blows. Effective delegation is a good thing. It results in completing the work in a timely manner. It also utilizes resources to their highest and best uses.

      Why do you believe you should work weekends? Lee Iacocca believed that managers who felt the need to work on their weekends were not as effective as those who did not need to do this.

      Given no repercussions from not engaging or covering or training or consulting, one of two things may be the case here. One, upper management is phoning it in, taking the easy way out and assigning “exceeds expectations” to your review so that they don’t have to take the time to fix anything.

      Or, you are more effective than you think. After all, one of the goals of good management is the highest and best use of all resources. And by delegating all but what requires your specific expertise, you may very well be doing just that.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      There was an AAM letter a few weeks ago with a similar message – the LW had over-performed for years and risen to a high level at their org and was finally able to work 8 hour days with plenty of time for activities outside of work, and they were feeling guilty or conflicted about not working so hard anymore. I think most of the comments on that letter would be reassuring to you.

      You’ve earned the benefit of coasting for a bit as part of your self-care. From the description of what you’re doing now, by and large those are good things that a senior person (manager with reports) should be doing. Delegating where appropriate, drawing harder boundaries around work vs. non-work time, not forcing yourself to work when it’s painful or cram to meet deadlines no one really cares about. Your direct reports are getting more experience/opportunities than they would if you retained more work for yourself, and they’re seeing you model a better work-life balance than someone who works weekends/evenings.

      I’d argue you’re exceeding expectations because this *is* what they expect you to do, and you’re doing well at it!

    4. Workerbee*

      Sounds like you’ve figured out how to co-exist with your particular company and not wear yourself out. Enjoy it!

    5. Recovering Work-a-holic*

      Thank you for your comments. I will look for that letter from a few weeks ago. It all rings true to me.
      As to the why work evenings and weekends- it was an expectation of the job for promotions but once here and this past two years…meh.
      Mostly I really don’t have perspective on “what is enough.”
      There are A’s and there are F’s. I am not afraid to fail- I just move on. what I am bad at is “good enough”
      Weirdly, I don’t have the same expectations of others including reports and know when to accept good enough.
      The idea that my management is randomly handing out exceeds expectations is mind blowing (because we usually have to fight for the rating) I’m also a person who keeps my eyes on my own plate so have no idea what others are up to. And the WFH flex means there is no office buzz.

    6. kiki*

      I feel like there’s probably a few things going on here, but the first I want to bring up is that a lot of companies and industries, the definition of “enough” has changed a lot since the beginning of the pandemic. A lot of people took a step back, and when a lot of people do that around the same time, it’s less noticeable that any one person did.

      It also sounds like you have a lot of experience– I think there’s a transition in a lot of careers where you used to be paid for executing and delivering but now that you’re more senior you’re being paid for your expertise. You’re no longer rowing the boat, you’re the one making sure you don’t hit rocks or dangerous storms.

  86. Newt Geizsler*

    I’m trying to figure out if it’s worth it to get a certificate in grant writing.
    I’m a STEM PhD student, and my university is now offering a certificate course in grant/technical writing. It would be free for me to take the classes, but adding them onto the classes I’m already taking would lead to a few difficult semesters. I will be doing a lot of technical writing and grant writing over the course of my degree, so I could potentially build a technical writing portfolio that way. The appeal of the certificate is that it’s a structured course (I do better with structure) and would show up on my transcripts / resume. To anyone in a related field, would having the certificate help me? Or would I be better off just taking one or two classes that are most relevant to me?
    Thanks!

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t have a PhD, so feel free to take my advice with a grain of salt, but my thoughts are:

      I think you’ll be better off just taking the one or two classes that are most relevant. Those will give you some structure and help you learn the basics of grant/technical writing, and then you’ll get plenty of practical experience during the course of your PhD. Doing the whole certificate doesn’t sound worth the added stress.

      1. Newt Geizsler*

        Thanks!
        I think I can also take the courses and officially apply to the certificate later on if I decide it’s worth it, so it seems like just taking the most relevant ones to start is the way to go.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Do you plan to stay in academia? The grant writing aspect is less about wanting it on the resume and more about that will be how you get your money and stay employed if you are in academia. Technical writing might carry over for making your journal articles stronger and your thesis writing skills better but that varies wildly by course too, is it aimed ESL, is it basic grammar rules, is it science writing tone etc. Ask your advisor if they think it’s a good idea for you to do so, I know mine was extremely blunt about suggesting writing courses to specific people, your advisor will know if your technical writing needs improvement.

      1. Newt Geizsler*

        I probably won’t stay in academia. My wife’s career is taking off, and there’s a chance that we’ll be moving somewhere without a lot of options in my field after I defend. With that in mind, I’ve been trying to focus on skills that could work for a remote position.
        Most of the courses in the certificate have generic names (ie, “Technical Writing”) and because it’s a new offering, there aren’t any reviews online or any students I can talk to who have taken it. My advisor hasn’t been thrilled with my writing so far (he tends to rewrite it extensively) so I think he would be supportive of me taking at least one class, which I could take as an elective without interrupting my normal classes. There’s one that’s just grant focused, so maybe I’ll start with that? Thanks for your response! I’ll definitely talk to him about it.

        1. River Otter*

          Have you talked to your advisor about the revisions he makes? Does he think you are a poor writer or does he think you just need a different style? What about your other committee members – do you have any opportunity to get feedback from them about your writing?
          Just because your advisor makes copious revisions, that doesn’t mean your writing needed those revisions. It could be that your advisor is a bad writer. It could be that your advisor is a good writer but just wants a certain voice in anything with their name on it. Or it could be that your advisor has a better handle on what kind of Voice those particular publications need, but that doesn’t mean you are a bad writer.
          You should be learning from all his revisions, however. If he is continually making revisions and you are not changing your style to meet what he wants to see, then you aren’t learning anything from the corrections.
          Or you might be a bad writer. I recommend getting additional input on your writing skills before you conclude that you need a technical writing course.
          Or, you could take that technical writing course and get elective credit for it.

    3. River Otter*

      I have a PhD in physics. You should be building a technical portfolio by publishing. To get grant writing experience, ask your advisor whether you can help out with that so you can get experience. They might or might not be on board with that – many advisers do not want their students helping out with the grant writing process.
      A course in grant writing might be useful and you might be able to find a way to make it count towards your credit hours in the PhD program as an elective or something, but an entire certificate program is just going to be a distraction from actual technical writing that you should be doing to get your degree.

    4. Willow*

      Definitely take the grant-writing course if you also plan to write a grant application during your PhD training. Lots of non-ac jobs will see experience/knowledge in writing grants as a plus. It’s not just academics who write grants!

    5. Nesprin*

      Having a STEM PhD and doing more grant writing than you can shake a stick at (seriously- we called it 5 proposal february), these courses can be useful to not very useful, depending on how they are taught. What I did to learn to write a grant, was write a grant with my advisor, then another, then another. Having written a grant+/- a few fellowships to me would be more impressive than having taken coursework in grantwriting. I say this as a practicing scientist, but if you want to do technical writing, why not take this course in your later years when you’re doing mostly research vs. in your coursework heavy years?

  87. MarketingMaven*

    Would love to hear your experiences and perceptions around “job hopping”, particularly as it relates to the pandemic and current economy.

    I left a job that I had been at for 3 years earlier this year for a role that was incredibly promising. Big pay raise, great learning experience, and all signs pointed to it being a great experience. Unfortunately it was one of those things where I realized within the first week that it was toxic, that the compensation structure that I had agreed to had changed and the role was significantly different than what I’d been excited to do. Shortly after, a mentor of mine reached out with the “perfect job”. I initially turned him down because I didn’t want to be perceived as job hopping and I wanted to give the first role more time to see if some of the issues could be sorted through. He insisted that I at least interview, make a connection and see if it was a fit. You can guess what happened next – he was right! The role was a step up in responsibility, the team seemed great and the financial outlook of the company was fantastic.

    Then the economic downturn hit.

    Suddenly, I’m less than a year into a job that I was SO excited about (I still am, in many ways) but the financial outlook of the company is uncertain at best. Layoffs are rumored weekly, budgets are being cut, bonuses are not being given. As the primary provider for my family, I can’t help but be concerned.

    I am in a role that is in high-demand. It’s very hard to find people with my type of experience and there are so many open roles that I find interesting…. but again, I don’t want to have two short stays on my resume if I can help it. But should I be concerned about that given *waves hands* all of this?

    What do ya’ll think? Any direct experiences or thoughts from someone who’s been there?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      So you were at a job for 3 years, one for 1 week (not sure on that), and then another for 1 year? If the second job was legit for 1 week or even 1 month, I’d just leave that off your résumé altogether.

      1. MarketingMaven*

        I was at a job for 3 years, then one for 6 months and this one has been about 7 months.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I mean, there may be some potential employers who view that as job-hopping, but if the last one was because of a layoff, that can’t really be your fault.

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I think the topic needs it’s own thread. Hopefully Allison gets a letter on this. All I hear from younger people is “job hop hop hop.” I am sure there are reasons for it, but it’s one of many options. Personally, the only people I know who did job hop did it because they burnt the bridge at their past jobs. It’s not the norm in every industry even among genX and at least elder millennials

    3. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      I wish hiring managers wouldn’t make such a fuss about job hopping. It happens and it’s been especially prevalent lately because of the Pandemic. I’d only worry if I saw a long pattern of staying only 1 year.

      For myself, I have rarely held jobs longer than 5 years over the last 20 or so years. In order to make more money you have to hop a bit. And yes, occasionally, you make a bad pick and have to leave quickly. Leave those off if you can, or explain how it was a bait and switch from when you interviewed and was misrepresented.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I’d only worry if I saw a long pattern of staying only 1 year.

        I think the problem here is that some people think “job hopping” means just a couple of short stays, but it really is more about a longer pattern… or should be about that.

      2. Warrior Princess Xena*

        It depends on the hop, but I do have to point out that hiring managers have a legit reason to worry about hopping.

        Depending on the field, it can take 6+ months to get someone fully up and running in their role. Obviously this will vary based on how niche the field is (and the skill levels involved) but it takes a lot of time to train someone new. It also takes a lot of expense. I’ve seen stats where hiring anything under management costs half a year of the position’s salary (higher levels are more expensive).

        That’s a lot of incentive to be wary of hopping.

      3. Prospect Gone Bad*

        It depends what your role is. In my industry, the more respected and productive people have been around for years. You have to know a 1000 little things. There is no way to fake-it-til-you-make-it. You will work 10X harder to have a mediocre result. It will feel like an uphill battle. You will feel like you’re working really hard but the results won’t be there. Also the only way to get more responsibility is through experience. And no one is going to hand you big projects when you just got there.

        I’ve seen way too many resumes of people with 10 jobs in different industries and they all look the same.

        And when I get the rare one of someone with many jobs in the same industry, there are usually other issues. Most are upfront about wanting to make more money and most don’t make the case for it, in my experience.
        Most think they are making the case for it though. They will say what they think makes them a good candidate but it’s usually not something impressive enough to warrant them getting a huge raise and doesn’t answer the question why their current job isn’t going exceedingly well.

    4. irene adler*

      Employers are willing to forgive a whole lot when you have high-demand skills.

      And the job hop fret is overrated. You have 3 years/1 position. Proof you are stable. The half year positions- c’mon you have a legit reason (company may soon lay off as the strong signs of instability are present). It’s not like it was your idea to make the company unstable.

      And, if the perfect job appears today- who is going to fault you for taking a shot at it? You only live once. You are the only one who has your best interests at heart. You are the only one who can take the steps to assure your best interests are served.

  88. Paris Geller*

    I tend to run hot, in part due to medication I am on. Despite working in libraries, which have a reputation for always being cold, I find myself very warm at my desk. I am surrounded by windows that let in a LOT of sunlight, and I’m in Texas where it’s currently 100+ every day and very sunny, so it gets toasty. I have a fan at my desk, which helps a LOT, but I would love to know if there’s any cooling products/ways I can change my environment/etc. to help. I do have shades on the windows by my desk and they do also help some as well.

    1. BellyButton*

      I see people wearing Personal Cooling Portable Neck Fans, all the time. I have never used one but the few people I have asked say they are great.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I have one of these that was way more helpful than I expected it to be walking around outside in Florida all day long in July.

    2. CoveredinBees*

      I know they make cooling pads for pets that are triggered by pressure. Maybe you could have one over the back of your chair so you could lean back when you need extra chill?

      I know they make cooling vests and caps, but they tend to be pretty bulky. There’s something called “MenoPod” to help women with hot flashes, that you put on the back of your neck for a minute to cool your body. It would be more discrete but wouldn’t offer continuous cooling. Also, I’m guessing they’re pricey.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      There are neck wraps/scarves that are cooling but they tend to be outdoor/athletic wear rather than office — you have to get them wet.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        I started keeping these in the car when I lived in AZ and they’re great! You wring out the water and shake/snap the towel to “activate” it so it feels cold but doesn’t actually feel or look damp.

    4. Aphrodite*

      If it won’t bother anyone else, tape aluminum foil right to the windows, up tight against them. (Dull side out for good neighborly relations.) Even if you do just the windows that get the most sun, it will make a dramatic difference.

      1. KathyG*

        And if foil will bother others for whatever reason, there is heat-reflecting / privacy film that merely darkens a window instead of blocking it completely, available at most big-box home improvement stores.

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Freeze packs … gel packs or the hard ones that go into coolers. Stick them under your desk, or behind you on the chair, or wherever it seems to help.
      On hot nights I sleep with one, all wrapped up in a towel or scarf. Sometimes I’ve got it pulled up next to my belly or back, sometimes it’s enough to reach into the bundle and cool my wrists a bit.
      Using wool or another very insulative fiber can help keep the cool in so they last longer.

    8. Mac*

      If you have room on your desk for a sample-size slab of marble counter top, that can serve as a lovely little heat sink to rest your wrists/forearms on.
      Also, go ashy as much as you can get away with it. I definitely notice my temperature spike if I put lotion on all my limbs, and smearing oneself in lipids (traditionally goose grease, I believe) is literally what swimmers do to trap body heat when attempting a crossing of the English Channel.

  89. Gift Ideas Needed*

    I have a Direct Report going on parental leave soon. Direct Report is a rockstar, but I hardly know Direct Report because I just started this job this week, and we work out of different locations. I feel I should get Direct Report a congratulations gift on their new baby – what should I get? I’m open to gift card/cash, but I’d need to know what dollar amount is customary. This will be a gift direct from me as manager; I’m not collecting money from others or throwing an office shower.

    1. BellyButton*

      $25-50 would be reasonable. You also do a web search for “name baby registry” and see if anything comes up. Amazon and target registries seem to be the most popular.

      1. Gift Ideas Needed*

        Thanks. The $ range is really helpful. For additional context, Direct Report does not have a registry. This is not Direct Report’s first child. At the moment, Direct Report is the only other person on my team, although I am supposed to have another person join my team soon.

    2. Ginger Pet Lady*

      Gift card for meal delivery (Door Dash, Uber Eats, etc.) to make things simpler for everyone during recovery. Easing the work of meals helps the whole family.

      1. Heather*

        Definitely this! When I had a baby, people gave me all kinds of cute onesies and blankies and stuffed animals. They are fun to unwrap but not really useful. Giving them a gift card for food, with a cute note about how, now that they have X number of children, they’ll barely have time to cook (or whatever) would be a great gift.

  90. Annie*

    Anyone work from home with a hearing problem? I recently pitched my old company to take me back in my old job but fully remote. I do people management stuff so need to be in lots of hybrid calls where multiple people are in a room onsite and I’m remote on video. I am having so much trouble hearing people in these calls. Half the time if there are more than 2 people in the meeting, all I can hear is gargling. I just had an interview with a candidate for our open position where I couldn’t hear a word she said, so I wasn’t able to take notes or contribute to the discussion of whether we should hire her. I’m feeling scared and desperate because I don’t think this position is going to work as a remote role if I can’t reliably hear people on calls. I have an appointment with an audiologist next week but if it turns out I’m hard of hearing, I’m not sure if that would be any better because how can I work a remote role if I can’t hear? Anyone gone through this? Mic recommendations?

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      I splurged on hearing aids, and my only regret is not doing it years ago. Mine actually have Blue Tooth Capability, and I am connected to my cell phone.

      Having to work 100% in person, I don’t have your challenges, but they could connect electronically and that might help.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I work from home two days a week. I am deaf in one ear and have been for about seven months. I’m adapting still. Without knowing your exact situation, it’s hard to make recommendations, but here’s what I did.
      1. Bought a really nice set of headphones with adjustable input, so I could reroute them through my good ear. Stereo does not work when you can’t hear through both ears.
      2. Sadly, Zoom and Teams doesn’t allow you to adjust speakers volumes individually, so as much as possible I don’t use them. I’m a big “call me” person. However, if I have to use them, I am basically crank the volume as needed for softer speakers and am super militant about making sure everyone else is muted. I wish this was a feature. If Discord can do it, Zoom and Teams should be able to do it!
      3. Have my ringer turned up super high and carry it around with me. I know I won’t hear the phone if I am out of my work office, so I keep the ringer cranked as high as it goes.

      Lastly, For me, a hearing aid isn’t effective (brain stuff), but it might be an option for you and I would look in to it. There are some great options these days. I will add, that I can’t do meetings where I am on video and everyone else is in person. I just can’t, because I can’t parse the sound imput well enough. I’ve had to accept that and adapt. So far, no one has minded doing those through Zoom or something, but if they did, I would have to come in.

    3. YetAnotherFed*

      MS Teams has live captioning. My spouse is hard-of-hearing and has a cochlear implant, and he loves telework with Teams and captions. He prefers telework with Teams to physically being in the office. No advice as to microphone/headset as he’s another Federal employee so he’s somewhat limited in terms of equipment.

    4. Nesprin*

      So the hybrid half in person half online is the HARDEST thing to do well- if you’re not careful, it’s a mumbled conversation that the remote folk get 1/3 of (I say this as a person with no hearing deficits). Its easiest when it’s one speaker in the in person room- doing so with a discussion is really really challenging.

      You may find it worthwhile to request a moderator in the in person room to ask people to speak into microphones+ repeat things when not easy to hear+ check on the remote folk for input + questions.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Agreed – I don’t have any hearing deficits but being on a call with a conference room full of people is the worst. You have mumblers, paper shuffling, pen clicking or tapping, all sorts of noise that make it very hard to hear everyone who speaks. I have dropped off meetings where I just couldn’t hear enough of the conversation while being blasted with scratchy sounds because someone didn’t notice their papers were rustling up against the microphone.

        If there’s a way you can request a facilities upgrade to the conference room(s) that are used, that’s a potential avenue. For example, the room could be outfitted with better teleconferencing technology – multiple microphones, distributed speakers, smart cameras (they pan to show whoever is currently speaking). If you know of any other employees who have to call in to meetings like this from home, see if they’re having similar issues with hearing individual speakers. They also might be willing to add to the chorus to upgrade conference room tech.

    5. onyxzinnia*

      Hi Annie, I work mostly remote and I’m hard of hearing as well. I’ve been hard of hearing almost my entire life so it’s a bit different for me, but I imagine the recent uncertainty is frightening. I’m glad you’re exploring options with an audiologist who can help navigate the right solutions for you and begin the documentation process. Please don’t hesitate to contact your HR team to explore available accommodations like assistive technology (for example, they may be willing to purchase a special phone that’s designed for hard of hearing folks).

      Like Lady_Lessa said, hearing aids are a game changer. There are a lot of subtle options nowadays than there were in the past so you can find something that works for you. Mine also have Bluetooth capability, although it’s designed for iPhone and I’m an Android user so I don’t take full advantage of this feature. If you’re in the US, you can use FSA funds to help with the cost and I also found Costco’s Hearing Aid Center to be a great option in terms of affordability. If you buy through Costco, you can get them maintained through them for free.

      As far as remote work, it’s doable but takes planning. I ask for meeting notes to be sent out via email after calls to confirm that I didn’t miss anything. Noise-cancelling headphones are important because they block out sound in my immediate environment that distract from the call. With multiple people in the room, I like to remind people to speak closer to the microphone if they’re too far away to pick up the sound, ideally they’re using an external mic rather than relying on a computer speaker. My manager started using a lavalier mic for unrelated reasons and I found it made a huge difference during our remote 1 on 1s. Best wishes on finding the right solutions for you!

    6. Student*

      I am hard of hearing, and have been for decades. I finally got hearing aides mid-pandemic, and they were a life-changer.

      In particular, my hearing aides are a HUGE improvement on conference calls. At the start of the pandemic, I struggled with conference calls (and lots of normal-but-masked conversations) a ton because I had been coping via lip-reading for a long time. My hearing aides interact directly with my phone. I can take a call where the audio goes straight to my hearing aides. It is wonderful! I have most conference calls use my phone audio, even if I’m watching the presentation on my computer, because the audio clarity is wonderful. If I can’t do that (some of my meetings are configured to not allow call-ins or dial-outs for audio), then the hearing aides still work pretty well with headsets.

      Some hearing aides will also have USB attachments that let you connect them to a computer’s audio. I haven’t tried those yet. My audiologist thought the USB device for my hearing aide brand was not that useful, so on her advice I haven’t done so yet, but I’m interested in trying it. Note – hearing aides use bluetooth to connect to stuff, but it’s a special hearing-aide-bluetooth that is different from most standard devices because it’s meant to be low-power. So, you usually need the hearing-aide-branded USB device to connect to your hearing aides to an audio device. Apple’s iPhones will do the correct connection right out of the box, and most other brands of phone will too, but older models of phones may not work with newer hearing aides.

  91. Lauren*

    Does anyone have experience running for local office while working full-time? I have some compliance-related questions specific to my field, but I’m looking for a wider variety of perspectives.

    [Brief context: I feel compelled to take steps for reproductive and disability rights beyond what I’m currently doing, which is donating money and protesting. If I feel that a current campaign in my area is sufficiently protective of AFAB people and disabled people (and of course people who are both), I will throw myself into volunteering for that campaign, but in a reddish-purple county I’m not optimistic.]

    2. pancakes*

      Hold on, though.

      “If I feel that a current campaign in my area is sufficiently protective of AFAB people and disabled people (and of course people who are both)” – I’m confused, because it sounds like you’re maybe hoping it will not protect trans and NB, but not hopeful that will happen because you’re in a red/purple area? Those are the same areas taking away rights from trans people and NB people. If that’s not what you mean you maybe want to think about this phrasing. You can just say you want to protect reproductive rights and disability rights, if that’s what you’re hoping to do.

      1. Lauren*

        I have phrased this poorly! I am very much in favor of rights to gender affirming care and other needs of the nonbinary and trans communities. In my previous phrase I meant to highlight my extreme concern for people of any gender who find themselves pregnant under the current federal administration.

        There are many marginalized groups that deserve concern, many of whom were affected by the recent ruling, all of whom I would fight for if I were to enter politics. My feeling is that the likeliest next group to have their rights taken away by the SC are disabled people via an ADA rollback. I don’t want anybody to lose their rights, but I am thinking of what is going to happen the soonest and what has already happened.

    3. Nonbinary Pal*

      Hey, first of all thanks for being willing to step up in your community for reproductive and disability rights, that’s awesome.

      Just want to say real quick that a lot of trans men and nonbinary folks explicitly do not wish to be identified by their assigned sex at birth aka as “AFAB.” Truly my sense is that your intention is to be inclusive so I just wanted to offer this feedback because as a nonbinary/shading transmasc person it’s been rough all around lately.

      1. Lauren*

        I appreciate the feedback – understood that the correct phrasing here would be “women, nonbinary people, and trans men”.

    4. Hannah*

      I have not run for office, but my husband did while working a full time job last year so I’m happy to answer compliance questions! My day job is in government so I actually have two angles on the whole thing. The short version is that as long as your day job isn’t publicly funded (state, city, etc) and you don’t work at a non profit, compliance is pretty easy.

  92. Interpreter*

    Hey Amethyst, thank you for your help last week in the open thread. I wasn’t able to engage further so thank you for your advocacy and sharing your lived experience. Hope you’ve had a wonderful week.

  93. CoveredinBees*

    This is mostly just a rant. I’m looking for a job that is primarily lab work and have come across a considerable number of postings which mark their location as “remote”. At best, they could be hybrid with writing reports, etc at home. Otherwise, you need well…a well-appointed lab to do the work. Unless you’re Tony Stark, you’re not going to have this at home*. I still read them because they might be near me (so far, no luck!) and somewhere, buried at the bottom they mention their location. These aren’t huge companies that might have multiple locations. It’s just the one. If this was occasional, I’d chalk it up to an error but it is a significant number of the postings (since it includes everywhere!) that I’m finding.

    *Also, if you’re Tony Stark, you’re probably not job hunting.

    1. RagingADHD*

      Yep, this is a very bad trend that a lot of employers (or their outside recruiters) are resorting to in order to get more candidates. The promise of at least occasional WFH is supposed to be the draw, but having it listed this way is misleading. It stinks.

    2. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Yes, most lab work is hybrid at best. I worked for a “very large” chemical company and all of the scientists mostly came in to their (very nicely appointed labs) unless they were writing papers or reviewing written documents and didn’t need to be in the lab that day. They had nicely appointed labs because some of them came in at odd or long hours. I guess when they get on a roll, they stay overnight or however long it takes. Sadly, no Jarvis to help.

  94. RestaurantAnxiety*

    Hi all, I’m a summer intern in a corporate environment. Next week I’m going out to dinner with a pretty sizable # of people from work (it’s a dinner arranged by one of the bosses). They told me explicitly I won’t need to pay for my meal. I’m nervous about this because it’ll be my first time interacting with a lot of these people outside of work, and I don’t know what the norms are. What should I be ready to talk about or ask about? What are the rules for ordering food? Any advice at all or even stories of similar experiences so I know what to expect would be appreciated!

    1. smeep248*

      I can relate to the anxiety. Generally speaking just watch what others do and mirror it – if no one else is ordering alcoholic drinks then skip ordering one. I’m a planner so I would review the menu in advance and choose to order something moderately priced (i.e. if reviews say the restaurant is $31-50/ person on average, don’t order a $100 filet). Be prepared to be asked about your future plans, and maybe rehearse a couple of talking points ahead of time – but no reason to overwhelm yourself. It shouldn’t be too difficult to navigate.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Seconding this advice. I often find I’m nervous about events like this right up until I arrive and see the first familiar face. Then it’s “hey, Dave, what’s up?” and the conversation starts flowing and I have a good time.

      2. Warrior Princess Xena*

        I would add – unless you know you have a VERY good head for alcohol, avoid it entirely or nurse it if you are ordered one. Alcohol + nerves do not always make for a good combo and a big dinner with a group of bosses is not a good place to run a risk.

        For food – avoid the very highest end of the menu + anything likely to be extremely messy (french onion soup is a known terrible pick – soup + stringy cheese!) A good way to gauge food expectations is to ask your coworkers if they recommend anything or what they thing looks good. This will often kick off stories of the best (and worst, and weirdest) food places people have been at.

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      If you order off the menu, then either not be first and follow the others in pricing or go middle.

      For conversation, if possible I like to mention either art exhibits or concerts. That will open some non-work, but still interesting topics, (or draw blank expressions)

      Another topic, again if you are interested, is the latest pictures from the new Webb telescope. (FYI, if you want to see some fabulous pictures, check out NASA’s Astronomy Picture of the Day. Some are space, some are pictures from earth looking up, lovely. One that I saved for my screensaver is the moon perched on top of a sky scraper. Admire the photographer.

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      Have a quick like <10seconds about you. You'll probably end up spacing it out interspersed with their replies as you talk to new people but you want to work in like name, role, uni. "Im restaurantAnxiety, I'm one of the summer interns, when it's not summer I'm a engineering student at XYZ university (whatever non intern you does). I'm working in the ABC department" . That lets them place you mentally as well as adapt their own small talk scripts. Work questions you may want to ask back at them, what department are they from, what does that role do, how long they been with company, any advice for people starting out in field. Then non work stuff, pick a fav TV show or a book or a hobby or a sports team you like, and could talk about. "Did anyone see the game last night" is always a solid option for awkward silences. "Can you believe the weather we're having" is another classic. "Are you traveling at all this summer" is another decent one.

      1. Chestnut Mare*

        Agree to all of this, especially deflecting questions back. As a rule, people enjoy talking about themselves and if you ask them about themselves, you’ll be considered a sparkling conversationalist.

        As far as ordering, if your klutzy like me, try to find something tidy to eat versus sauces, floppy pasta, etc.

        Stay away from hard alcohol unless you’re an experienced drinker.

    4. Christmas Carol*

      Think like generations of old-fashioned girls in the good old sexist days, when Mom taught us how to order to impress the men who were spending their “hard earned money” taking us out to dinner. Order from the middle of the menu, not the cheapest thing, but not the most expensive either. Don’t order anything difficult to eat, or likely to stain your clothing if the worst thing should happen. Don’t order in a way that makes it obvious you were obsessing about your weight, but don’t look like an over-eater either. We were often told to ask our host “what looks good to you, dear” and then to frantically scan the menu for something that cost about the same, if not slightly less. The advice to avoid the garlic/onions in the light of possible after-dinner affection probably doesn’t apply, though.

      As to what to talk about, just riff on that old college mixer chiche:
      What’s your name? Probably the same
      What’s your Home Town? Where will you return to school when the internship is over? How did you end up working here? and maybe even What’s your home town?
      What’s your Major? What department have you been assigned to.
      The more things change, the more they remain the same.

      1. pancakes*

        Caroline Bender from The Best of Everything, is that you?

        I saw that movie with a pretty full theater at a local place that often shows old movies, and when one of the young career gals on screen slapped some jerk, someone in the audience yelled out, “yeah!!” It was a fun time.

    5. just another queer reader*

      Hi! I can totally relate.

      When I was an intern I went out to dinner with some coworkers and a supplier rep (salesperson). It was a very fancy restaurant and I was totally out of my depth. I was intimidated by the prices on the menu so I ordered the cheapest thing they had – a weird pizza type thing – which was fine, but in retrospect I’d go ahead and order something from the middle of the menu, like everyone else was doing.

      I happen to be a young woman in a mostly male dominated field. The conversation that night revolved around cars, sports, and other things I happen to have no interest in. My colleagues made a semi-valiant effort to include me in the conversation. Not gonna lie, it was pretty boring. BUT I don’t think this experience is typical! There are many good conversation topics that you could bring up if needed, including the weather, travel plans, college classes, pets (people LOVE to talk about their pets!!), telescope photos, etc etc etc.

      Best of luck. I’m rooting for you!

    6. Mac*

      I’m guessing you’re either in school or a recent grad, so asking people about their own schooltime experiences is usually a sure bet to get them reminiscing.

      At the end of the dinner, make sure and tell whoever hosted you that you had a great time and that you appreciate it (hopefully this will be true!), and if there were any people you enjoyed talking to, try and make sure you go say goodbye to them and say, “Hey, I really enjoyed meeting you/talking with you.” Literally nobody hates being told they were enjoyable company over dinner.

  95. Dark Macadamia*

    I got the job! Now of course I’m wondering what’s wrong with them that they chose me (lol) because my previous jobs were mutually desperate last-minute decisions, but this actually seems like a great place and I know they had other candidates. Mostly it makes me feel good, though, that they’re confident in my abilities even if I’m a little less so. I’m nervous but really excited, especially since I’ll actually get some decent training/orientation and have time to prepare myself. The most stressful part, adjusting childcare plans on relatively short notice, actually worked out amazingly too!

  96. Toasty*

    My partner is about to finish his degree and recently applied for a job at a specific branch of an organization with multiple locations in the area. He had a call with a member of their central HR department, who said that the position had been filled but there were openings of the same role at another location. He politely declined saying that he was not interested in the other location because it was a longer commute, but asked her to keep his application on file in case anything opened up in the original location. HR asked him where he lived (he gave a nearby landmark), then proceeded to look up the route to the other locatuon on Google Maps and said “This one is only X minutes from you!”

    Was she allowed to do that?

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      I don’t really see the harm in it since your partner gave a landmark as a destination. It would be much more problematic to me if she used your actual address. This comes across as a little ‘gumption-y’ by the HR person unless she framed it in a way that communicated, “Just a heads up this location is ‘x’ minutes away from you in case you weren’t aware.”

    2. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Yes, they’re allowed to do that. But it was pretty tone deaf because the HR rep acted as though concerns about a long commute were not valid to the applicant.

      The HR rep could have said something like “We have an opening in X location, which might be something for you to consider.” Or, just said OK we will call if we have an opening in X location.” Of course it is possible the HR rep does not live in the area at all (not uncommon) and has no idea about commutes in that city.

      1. Toasty*

        It just seemed a bit invasive to me. I know that HR is not allowed to ask about certain personal details to avoid discrimination and I wasn’t sure if asking where a candidate lives was a method for determining race or socio-economic status.

        1. PollyQ*

          Oooh, that’s a valid point! Although HR IS legally allowed to ask “demographic” type questions, they’re just not allowed to use the answers for any decisions about employment, so they generally don’t ask them in order to avoid looking like they might discriminate. And you’re right that employers have used address or zip code to “red line” potential employees, and that that behavior has been found to be discriminatory.

          Still, given that the HR rep was trying to encourage your partner rather than exclude, I don’t think they did anything unethical, although I definitely see where it could feel both invasive & pushy.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Was she allowed too? Sure. Should she have? Well… that’s a different question. People think certain questions “aren’t allowed” but in reality, they are legal, but often not asked because they open up the company to more liability. Was this kind of weird and presumptuous? 100% yes.

    5. WellRed*

      Of course that’s allowed. Peoples neighborhoods aren’t privileged information. However it was incredibly obnoxious and argumentative ( in a way) of her. Your partner is allowed not to like a particular location for any reason.

    7. The teapots are on fire*

      Sure! If she’s far away, she may not understand what distances mean in your area in terms of commuting time. She’s just trying to fill her position and maybe be helpful. She was wrong, of course, but people are wrong all the time.

      I work for a medical group that contracts out the appointment scheduling to a call center in another state, and for a while they were booking people for last minute appointments that they couldn’t possibly get to. “Oh, it’s ten miles, you can get there in fifteen minutes,” while in real travel time it’s more like 40 minutes. We had to set up an algorithm for them.

  97. Gary Patterson's Cat*

    Probably late to this, but how do you decide when it’s time to leave?

    I have a pretty good job overall. It pays well, has WFH flexibility, I like the topic and industry, and my coworkers. But it’s a really large company, and sometimes it feels very stifled and slow because the company moves at a glacial pace, and is just not very creative or innovative. Plus, they expect super high growth, yet I rarely get much of a marketing budget to work with to do what should be done. The subdivisions you are forced to work with are so slow to act or complete projects on time, yet you can’t get access or ownership to push them faster, which is frustrating to me. Yet I’d be stupid to leave right?

    I always keep my eye out for a smaller mid-sized company where I could be the bigger fish in a smaller pond, rule my own marketing budget, and have more control over the timing and deliverables. Does this exist? IKD?
    As much as I like some of the work, I can see my frustration growing over the years and it’s slowly wearing me down as I’m a real roll up my sleeves type. I feel like I’m transforming into a pencil pusher, not a doer and I don’t like it.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t know if it’s time to leave, but it’s definitely time to start searching a little more seriously.

      You can spend a little time each week intentionally searching for small or mid-sized companies with job openings in marketing. And/or, you can loosen up your criteria a little and start applying to some jobs that look mildly interesting. Applying does not obligate you to accept an offer, it’s just telling the company to learn more about to role.

      Searching and applying (and interviewing) for other jobs will show you if there are jobs that are better-aligned with your career goals, or if your current job is the best one for you right now.

    2. PollyQ*

      Yet I’d be stupid to leave right?

      Why? Seriously, why would you be “stupid” to leave a job that isn’t what you want to be doing, is in a company whose environment frustrates you, and feels like it’s wearing you down?

      Job-hunt! Doing it when you don’t really need to is the dream. If you don’t find anything you like better, you can always stay, but maybe there’s something out there that’s a much better fit, and then you can write in to Friday good news.

    3. irene adler*

      There’s no ‘law’ that says you can’t go on an interview or two. Test the waters.

      Sometimes the interview results in learning good things about the position I have.
      And sometimes I learn about things I never knew were out there-and I want that!

  98. LimeRoos*

    Just some more good employer stories because we need more of those. My Grandma recently passed away, and my company has been great about it. We have 3 days bereavement leave, and my boss let me take an extra day and just not record it, plus he reached out by phone and already asked about sending flowers. ::Insert happy crying emoji here:: I’ve been in the work force for 12 years and this is the first company that sent flowers – I had both Grandpa’s pass away (2013 & 2018), and neither company I worked with at the time sent flowers to those. So it’s just a little thing, but it’s the little things my company does that reminds me they’re one of the good ones.

    1. PollyQ*

      I’m so sorry for your loss, but glad to hear about the silver lining of your employer’s kindness. May your Grandma’s memory be a blessing.

      1. LimeRoos*

        Thank you! She was 92 and had a very well lived life, so while super sad, we have so many memories to enjoy.

    2. Elle Woods*

      I am so sorry about your grandmother. It’s lovely that your boss is being so kind and understanding about things.

  99. AK*

    Is it ever worth reaching out to management after being let go? I’m a contractor whose assignment was abruptly ended today. My contracting agency called to tell me and said they don’t have any additional information as to why. But they also made sure to add that I should only contact them with questions, not the manager who supervised me on-site. Which I guess means my manager doesn’t want me contacting her, but I just want to know why this happened.

    1. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      For what it’s worth, the agency telling you to only contact them may be their preference and may not have come from your supervisor at all. They typically like to hold the relationship, as they are the actual employer who benefits from placements and they don’t love when people go around them. However, that doesn’t necessarily make it a good idea to contact them. You could piss off your agency and annoy the manager, and if they wouldn’t tell your agency why they are unlikely to tell you. If you had a particularly strong connection with the manager then maybe, but IMO you have more to lose than gain here. Keep in mind it may not have been performance related at all, it could just be a financial decision. In part companies use contractors so they can do this.

  100. Moved On*

    I left my old job mid May, and left what I thought was extensive documentation of a quarterly process, including a written document and recording of training the team on how to do it. I knew it was a pain point, and wanted to leave as much documentation as possible. Compounding it, I self taught myself how to do this process in January when the person who handled it was on maternity leave. My old boss has reached out 3 times regarding this, and most of my responses have been “check my documentation or the previous quarter”. Since is it only done quarterly, I would have checked the previous files if I was still working there. I am a bit fed up that they have more resources than I did, but still keep asking me questions I know they have the answers to. How many times do I need to respond to these types of questions? How can I gently get them to stop asking me about this? I liked my old boss, and would use him as a reference in the future, so I don’t want to completely blow him off.

    2. kiki*

      Since you would like to continue using your old boss as a reference, I would continue responding, but wait a couple days. Right now it’s too convenient for them to text you and try to get an answer (even if your advice is just to look at the documentation).

    3. just another bureaucrat*

      Respond with “I really can’t remember much at this point, I did the best I could on the documentation though. I know I had to reference it every quarter because it’s such a long time in between.” After at least a day or more.

  101. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    On last week’s open thread I posted about an accidentally unmuted, profanity-laced comment regarding Covid I made on a work call, and how it would be a miracle if I didn’t come back from an out of town training with it. Welp. Went to the first day of training, then the second day was cancelled because…drum roll please…the previous day’s trainer tested positive for Covid. Me and 22 other people were in an enclosed meeting room with him all day, so now we’ve all been exposed. UGH.

    So far I feel fine and have tested negative with a rapid test. I’m going to test every day for the next 5 days just to be on the safe side. In the meantime I’m masking/quarantining at home and sleeping in the guest room.

    2. River Otter*

      Oh, sorry to hear that!

      In case you didn’t know, rapid tests have a high proportion of false negatives in asymptomatic people. If you can get a PCR test, do that instead.

  102. Invisible today*

    How much managing up is normal ? I’m not officially a project manager, but when given assignments that have more than one moving part, I’m very comfortable tracking what needs to be done and staying on top of status/ updates. I assume it is reasonable to ask/ prompt/ remind my manager for follow through on tasks that are necessary to progress on my projects.

    My question are conversations like “I need this to move forward. Ive sent 2 emails and one phone call over the past month+, can you PLEASE step in and help ?” Or reminding the managers (I am not a manager but report straight to him) to complete one or more parts of a task ? Or dealing with higher ups from other departments.

    Maybe I should just be grateful that his ego isnt shattered to bits by me telling him what I need from him.

    1. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I feel it becomes more common the higher up you are, because you’re no longer asking for simple things. If it’s “can you go in and approve expenses” or something simply like that, it will get done quickly. But as you progress the problems get murkier, like “can you get other department to generally be better?” Or “other department has fallen being on 20 to-dos and will delay project by seven months.” Stuff like that. Not stuff you can hash out over emails quickly. I think it’s totally reasonable for a boss not to be able to quickly respond and needed help 1) understanding the problem 2) coming up with solutions 3) trying to decide how to convey said solutions

      1. Invisible today*

        I get that as you get higher up, there needs to be more of a collaborative approach, . I’m a career switcher with only about 1 year in the role (and 5+ year career gap before that), so most of my work is expected to be at a somewhat junior individual contributer level. My previous experience gave transferable soft skills, but to be honest, i expected a lot more top-down guidance at my level.

    2. Hillary*

      This is normal, and there’s more as you move up the food chain. My weekly updates have an “asks of leadership” section. They like to be explicitly told how we need them.

    3. July twenty two*

      This sounds pretty normal! I figure the bigwigs have way more to keep track of than I do, so some of the details/needs of my projects escape them. And yes, be glad his ego isn’t hurt, that’s a great trait in a manager.

    4. just another bureaucrat*

      I fully expect my staff to stay on top of stuff and follow up with what they need. I have thousands of emails a week and work 70 plus hours. Your boss isn’t perfect and will drop stuff. If you are the owner of the stuff you’ll have to keep bringing it up.

      Some things you can do, make sure to not just send like “you need to do x.” Include the information needed to make the decision (because it’s almost always a decision needed somewhere), include any additional information, walk into the problem and don’t just say “I need approval on project 16.” The things that fill your work day don’t fill your manager’s work day, they are a small sliver of it so you have to remind them of drilling down into that sliver so they can see what they need to.

      One of the things I do for my boss is I pull everything together in a big list for my weekly check in. I attach any emails that need approval and links to whatever the details are. I also try to list out the risks and the details on what he should worry about for each one. If I have a type of request that’s either really normal, or that he is often slow on I try to figure out what I can do to standardize it as much as possible which makes it easier to review and approve.

      I don’t really think of this as managing up as much as owning my section of work. It’s my job to make sure the stuff within my span of work gets done, and that sometimes means asking people multiple times. If everyone was perfect and no one needed reminding or dropped anything or did anything halfway …well a lot fewer of us would have jobs. But people are imperfect and that means I’m responsible for my area of work.

  103. OyHiOh*

    Anyone else whose companies/organizations use EOS (entrepreneurial operating system) and/or have new hires read the book Traction?

    I just finished reading the book as part of onboarding with NewJob. I thought it was rather par for the course – there’s a lot of shiny jargon in it, but the fundamentals – clear vision and goals, consistency, communication, trust your managers – are solid. There’s some super cringy “team building” stuff recommended that sounds like a recipe for absolute disaster if an org doesn’t have the right facilitator in the room, and overall, I thought the tone was a little over the top “rah rah rah/sporty” but I’m not a sports person at all so most would probably be blind to that anyway.

    I don’t think it’s a terrible book – definitely there are worse ones out there! – but definitely could have used the 6 hours on this training in SalesForce or something instead.

    1. OyHiOh*

      Should clarify the “trust your managers” one – that’s a top down trust: Owner, trust your departments heads; department heads, trust your managers. The author is specifically targeting the type of leader/owner who “manages” by dictatorship and then can’t understand why the organization is in chaos and not accomplishing its goals.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      We use it and it works really well for us (I was here before and after it was implemented). Traction isn’t a required read, though. We (leadership team) works with a facilitator on it, who is less rah rah than the book.

      1. OyHiOh*

        There’s about six recent hires who are doing the actual EOS training next week. My sense from the operations director is that this will be much less rah-rah than the book (we don’t have a sporty office culture).

        I really like the strategic nature of the program. Walking in the first day, the place felt in synch – that everyone knew their seats and roles and that they understood how the work they do daily ties to longer term goals. It’s funny how much you can pick up on during your first walk through the environment!

    3. RagingADHD*

      I haven’t used it directly but I have worked with some entrepreneurs who used it, and from what I saw it’s a useful resource for solopreneurs or entrepreneurs who didn’t get any kind of formal management training or experience the way someone might in a corporate career track. Starting a business tends to be a very jack-of-all-trades kind of thing, while managing people and creating business infrastructure are really different skill sets.

  104. New Grad*

    I officially finished my master’s degree today (yay!) and I start my first full-time professional job on Tuesday. I went straight into undergrad from high school, and straight into my master’s from undergrad, so this is my first full time job. I’ve worked internships and had part time retail and on campus jobs, but I know going into your first full time job in your field can be different. This job in particular was my top choice when job searching and is directly with the population I want to work with (I’m in the mental health field), so I’m super excited for the opportunity but also very nervous. Any advice for someone starting their first post-grad job would be much appreciated! I’ve searched the AAM site and read advice Alison’s posted in the past for new grads, but I’d love any more advice anyone has!

    1. WellRed*

      My advice would have been to take a week or two off ; ) seriously though, if you have stuff to do ( errands, chores etc) get ‘em out of the way before your first week. Fill up gas tank, get groceries, get your hair done, etc. be prepared to be fairly tired for the first week or so.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        100% this. I worked summers and part-time through grad school and nothing prepared me for how much time you lose when you have to work for 8 hours a day.

      2. Invisible today*

        Congrats and good luck !

        Don’t be afraid to use the fact that you are new to ask ALL the questions. No one expects you to know everything (or anything) so make the most of it. Also make friends with the receptionists / assistants / office managers. They typically know everything and everyone – a little kindness and respect will go far.

    2. GlazedDonut*

      Congrats! I did something similar. What I should have done: slow down a little at the beginning and watch people more. Pick up on norms for *this* particular workplace and try to learn them. Don’t assume that just because X is obviously the best choice for completing something is how it’s done.
      Have a great first week!

    3. kiki*

      Congrats! My advice is to start or maintain solid routines for life/health/wellness and hold firm with them. Sometimes the first few weeks of a job can be really overwhelming and it’s tempting to neglect life stuff and put all your energy into your new job. Do not do that! Make sure you take time every day to move your body (going to the gym, taking walks, yoga), take time to nourish your non-work mind (read books for pleasure, do crafts, keep at hobbies), and schedule time with loved ones.

      Also remember that it’s expected that you’ll ask a lot of questions and will need assistance. Speak up whenever you need something! I struggled with this because my experience in school was that you were given an all-encompassing syllabus and were expected to kind of figure out the rest out on your own. In a job, your training likely won’t be as organized so it’s up to you to ask for what you need to be successful.

  105. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

    This is so late in the day I don’t think anyone will see it. But for fun, what’s the most “archaic” technology you’ve seen recently that’s still in use at work (or other business)? I just sent an email to my print vendor that uses an @juno email address. For those too young, Juno predates AOL as an email service provider back in the dial up days. Sometimes the subject of email addresses and service providers comes up here, but I’m so impressed that 1) it’s still even possible to have a juno account and 2) he has refused to change to gmail or other “modern” service provider. Mark, my man, you are my hero!

    1. onyxzinnia*

      Hmm…I’d say using microfiche is probably the oldest tech I’ve used in business. I did have to fax something a few months ago and that was a struggle to find a fax machine.

    3. Hillary*

      We still have a LotusNotes order form. Good news, the AS400 installed in the early 80s is on track to retire next year.

      1. Loredena*

        Well there’s a blast from the past! It was very exciting at my first real job when we got an as/400 aka silverlake

    4. WellRed*

      Until fairly recently we used to do a specific government healthcare data request. They sent it on 3.5 inch floppy disks.

    5. Princess Xena*

      A client of ours uses an accounting software that was developed right when mice were first being commercialized and it hasn’t changed much since. Most of their divisions have moved to 365 but this one has gotten behind

    6. Dark Macadamia*

      A few years ago I did a mobile teaching program where I’d go to various classrooms at churches/schools/community centers. Most places had whiteboards mounted on the wall, a couple provided smaller freestanding whiteboards, and one place only had CHALKBOARDS. The first week I had to scramble around to other rooms before class trying to scrounge up some chalk because while I did have my own markers just in case none were available, I did not anticipate needing to buy chalk too.

      1. Mac*

        Oh sweet summer child, try being a public school teacher in Philly… Chalkboards for miles, the horrible green kind that never get clean…

    8. A Wall*

      I just encountered a hospital that still has all paper records for everything, including medical records. They have no EMR systems for anything, 100% paper.

    9. Irish Teacher*

      A couple of years ago, I got a test to correct done on a cassette tape and had to find my old teenage tape recorder and see if it still worked to play it on. Presumably, it was a student who had broken their arm or something and was unable to write, but…heck, even a CD would be more modern.

    10. Mac*

      At the food co-op I worked at til the mid-2010s, stashed under the cash register station was one of those heavy ka-chunka slidey things for taking carbon copy impressions of credit cards, in case the card readers went down.

  106. MSWIntern*

    I received a job offer as an MSW in a hospital, and I am set to start 10 days after I graduate. They offered me a slightly higher salary than they normally offer new social workers due to me having relevant experience as a RN. However, offer is contingent on a background check. I’m a little worried about the background check.

    This is for two reasons. First, my previous employment was working PRN at a different hospital that provided next to no training, so it was a lot of figuring things out in my own in a specialty that was new to me. I was there 10 months before I quit for my grad school internship. I’m worried about what my previous hospital will say about me.

    Second, I’ve read reviews about the background check this hospital uses. It’s called HireRight. A LOT of people are saying that they take forever and that they lost out on job offers because of mistakes HireRight made. Should I keep looking just in case? Do I have anything to worry about from HireRight?

    1. Sloanicota*

      Hmm, I hope others can speak for this, I wasn’t aware that a background check would include things like the quality of your reference from your prior job; AFAIK, the background check confirms that what you said on your application is true (so confirming dates of hire, title, etc) and then checks for a criminal record, possibly credit score (which sidenote is offensive and crappy). “Contingent on a background check” is usually pretty reliable although yes it can take a while.

      1. MSWIntern*

        The state this hospital is located in forbids using credit checks as part of the hiring process unless it is pertinent to the job. It is not in my case. I knew this, but asked the HR person if a credit check will be done as well just to kind of get a sense of whether the background check will be super overreaching or not. HR said there would be no credit check.

    2. SnowyRose*

      We use HireRight and I wouldn’t say they’re any slower or faster than others. Where we did run into delays over the past 2.5 years were the criminal/civil background checks, but that wasn’t HireRights’s fault. Courts got seriously backlogged because of COVID and it was a crapshoot – some got info back asap and others took months.

      1. MSWIntern*

        That’s a relief for me since I don’t have any criminal history. Hopefully, the courts were able to speed back up again.

        1. SnowyRose*

          I think things have mostly cleared out at this point. It really depends on what the employer chooses, too. For example, we look at education, criminal and civil history, driver license checks, military checks, credit, and a few other databases. It’s unlikely you’ll have to deal with all of that. Most of the checks are coming back within two weeks.

    3. kiki*

      Former background check worker here! Most people don’t need to worry about pre-employment background checks (though I personally do not support their current implementation and left the industry, but we don’t need to go into that here). Very, very rarely is something going to turn up on a background check that you don’t know about. Errors happen and any company that hires often know errors on background checks do happen, so they’re not going to immediately rescind a job offer without talking to you about what they find.

      When you have a background check done on you for a job, the background check company is legally obligated to offer you a copy of what they pull up– request one. If there are errors, you can dispute them. Hiring is really tight right now, especially in healthcare, so I don’t think any job would turn you away for a long background check process or one that has errors, though they may have to push back your start date.

      Here’s a rare case of a surprising result: a friend of mine recently got her pre-employment background check back with a note that she had warrant for her arrest in South Dakota (it was just a traffic ticket that she forgot to pay and SD has a low-level warrant they file for tickets like that). Her company asked her about it, she paid it, and then she started work with no issue.

      The biggest source of delays are the courts themselves. Certain states and counties are slower than others. A good background check company will notify your company if you ever lived in a slow state/county and will give them a heads-up on how long it will take.

  107. Free Meerkats*

    I was on the phone with one of our permitted industries today because their inspector is off and mentioned that I’ll be retiring in March. I’m letting our users know as I talk with them because I have good working relationships with most of them. He instantly came back with a job offer, “If you’re interested; full-time, half-time, part-time – what works for you, we need the compliance help.”

    I mean, who better than me? I wrote our last two ordinances, the enforcement plan, and the program manual… :)

  108. Braindead*

    A question about asking questions.

    Sometimes when I ask my boss questions about specific parts of tasks or what to do in specific situations, she answers, “we already went over this” or “this should be in your notes” even though I’m asking because, as far as I know, she didn’t go over it. (I actually posted here a few weeks ago about thinking I was developing memory problems because my boss kept telling me she’d told me things I had no memory of.)

    If she tells me I need to fix something, even though I followed procedures she had told me previously, I’ll ask, “I was told to do X in this situation. Did that change?” And then she won’t answer so I have no idea what to do the next time it comes up.

    It feels like I’m just supposed to know things and not ask questions. So I try to figure out new tasks or issues on my own first, and if I can’t figure it out, I’ll tell my boss what I tried/am thinking and ask for clarification. Sometimes she’ll just answer and it’s not an issue, but sometimes she’ll lecture me on how I should have asked questions before starting instead of wasting time trying to figure it out. I asked a question about something I started today (I was updating records, and a few records that came up were slightly different than the others, and I realized they might need to be handled differently), and got lectured on how I should have asked before starting and now she wants to have a meeting to discuss asking questions. I ended up being paralyzed by anxiety for the end of my shift because another slightly different record came up and I was scared to ask about it.

    It just feels like whatever I do is going to be wrong. I’m job hunting because I want a job where procedures are clear and consistent and asking questions doesn’t feel like a big deal, but does anyone have any advice on how to feel less anxious about this in the meantime?

    1. July twenty two*

      Your boss sounds terrible and I’m sorry you have to deal with this. I’ve had similar bosses and they were unequipped to manage or do the work, so they got snippy.

      I’m not sure if this would work with your tasks, but can you save up questions on a notepad and try to ask them all at once, one time a day? Sometimes when I’ve had a snippy boss like that I would try to ask them my questions all at once so they couldn’t run away from me.

      That may not work with the job you do, but I hope you know that the anxiety from a bad boss isn’t your fault. Good luck with the job search.

    2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Ugh, how awful. It sounds like your boss frequently changes the logic she’s operating under and expects you to read her mind. As you said, no matter what you do, it will be wrong according to her. After a while this kind of thing will really mess with your head; it will wreck your self-esteem and your ability to trust yourself. I’m glad you’re job searching.

      While you’re still there, try to disconnect emotionally from her reactions. Expect her to scold you. Try to keep your tone neutral and roll with whatever version of reality she’s pretending is always in effect. Ask whatever you need to ask to do your job, but don’t expect the answer to hold true in the next similar situation.

      I realize all of this is easier said than done. Hope you get out soon. She however, will never get out, because she doesn’t know how to live any other way.

    3. Mimmy*

      What you’re describing sounds like my worst nightmare! It’s so difficult when processes for handling things aren’t clear or consistent. I’ve observed this at my job too–very different functions, but it still feels the same. You expect everything to be black and white when, in reality, there is often a lot of grey.

      I am CONSTANTLY feeling like I need to ask questions. I like the suggestion of saving up questions until a given time, that’s what has helped me ease some of my anxiety. Also, I save my notes; in fact, after reading this, I should probably save more than I already do!

    4. Tired of Working*

      “(I actually posted here a few weeks ago about thinking I was developing memory problems because my boss kept telling me she’d told me things I had no memory of.)”

      She’s gaslighting you. I once had a supervisor who would sometimes ask me, “Did you do such-and-such?” and that was okay. But when she asked me, “Did you do such-and-such LIKE I TOLD YOU TO?” I would get nervous, because (1) I hadn’t done it, and (2) I didn’t remember her telling me to do it. And then she wound up screaming at me.

      At another company, Mary always typed her correspondence and asked the receptionist to type the envelopes. Every single time the receptionist tried to give the letter and envelope to Mary, Mary would scream at her, “What’s the matter with you? Why didn’t you put it in the mail? But when the receptionist put it in the mail, Mary would scream at her, “Why did you put it in the mail? I wanted to enclose something!” This went on for years. The receptionist never guessed correctly what Mary wanted.

      In case you are wondering, when Mary dropped off her letters and told the receptionist to type up an envelope, the receptionist would ask her if she should put it in the mail or if Mary wanted it back. But Mary always pretended that she didn’t hear the receptionist and just walked away silently.

      Some supervisors just enjoy messing with employees and screaming at them or making them feel bad.

  109. July twenty two*

    I’m leaving a job with a manager who has been very good to me. Specifically, my manager has had my back for years and did a lot for me they didn’t have to do. How/when do I send a thank you? I usually send a heartfelt email to my manager my second-to-last or last day on the job.

    Should I send a card or a letter instead? A small gift? Our industry is generally conservative, but we did exchange Christmas gifts.

    I welcome any suggestions because don’t know where to start!

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      I think a card would be nice. I know I keep cards like that whereas e-mails- I keep them but they get lost in the string of e-mails we all get. A card with a personalised message.

      When our last principal retired, I sent her a card wishing her well and thanking her for all her support, especially when my father died and when I had a thyroidectomy. When the head of my department left, to take a deputy principal job elsewhere, I did send her a small gift.

      1. July twenty two*

        Thank you! I think I will send a card worh a personalized note and a small gift.

  110. Out & About*

    After less than a year my previous position at old company is vacant again. Feels like confirmation that the job was/is unsustainable.

  111. ShakingALeg*

    Background info: My former boss and I have a great relationship and both had escaped from a toxic workplace. He became a manager of a public services org and I was hired several months back in customer service. He did not help me get this job, he only heard that I applied and was interviewed but was encouraging of the whole thing.

    So while I like aspects of the job, I realize now that due to COVID-19, I have been burned out from public service and I don’t think I can ever ignite that passion again, unfortunately. I have applied for another job and will be likely leaving in a few months.

    Question: Can I arrange a 1-on-1 with him once I give my two-weeks notice? I know it’s irrational, but he was such a cheerleader to me and I know he hoped I’d take on a leadership role in the future, and I still want to be on good terms with him. He’s not a petty person and, again, is one of the best bosses I’ve ever had the pleasure of working under. I just want him to know that it’s me, not him situation.
    So here

    1. Invisible today*

      It’s not irrational – sounds like a great way to keep them as an active contact. You never know what the future holds or where you might be in a position to return the favor.

  112. Irish Teacher.*

    Latest news from Ireland is changes to our pension. Pension age will remain at 66, but if people wish to work longer, they can do so and will receive a higher pension in return. It looks like it’s going to be capped at 70 though.

    I think it makes sense. People have different health situations and different choices. Some want to retire early. Others would like to work longer. I would currently love to work until 70 so hope this’ll apply to teachers.

    What is the situation in other countries? Are there government pensions to which all are entitled or is it more of a private system? Do people have choice about what age they retire or is there a pension age?

    Ireland has had a bit of a ludicrous situation for a couple of years. The pension ago used to be 65 so when it was raised, some companies still had their retirement age at 65, so people had to claim the dole/unemployment benefit for a year. Hopefully, this will sort that out too.

    1. KathyG*

      I am not a pension expert, but can give the broad strokes as my husband & I are approaching retirement and so have been looking into this.

      Canada has a hybrid system. Old Age Security (OAS) is a (very) basic amount universally available (at age 65 but can be deferred if you continue to work) but clawed back depending on other income. OAS can include a Guaranteed Income Supplement (GIS) for those whose income is low enough.
      Canada Pension Plan (CPP) is a public pension that every worker pays into from 18-65. It normally starts to pay out at age 65, but you can opt to start receiving at a (permanently) pro-rated reduced rate starting age 61, or defer up to age 70 at a higher rate.

      These 2 public plans can supplement your own individual savings.

      Private pensions tied to an employer used to be the case, but are now rare except for very large corporations or public-service entities.

      1. Irish Teacher*

        That sounds reasonable. I was wondering if having choice in when you retire has been normal in other countries for a while/always or if many countries had a “this is retirement age” situation.

        Ireland has two public plans, one which depends on paying into it and one which doesn’t. Both pay the same, but the latter is dependent on income. So if you are a widowed stay-at-home mum who didn’t work since you married at 22, you can get the latter if you have no income or your husband (or wife, but for people over 65, it is more common for stay-at-home parents to be women married to men) only left you a small amount, but if he was a millionaire who left you all he had, you won’t, whereas the first one you would get even if you had the million euro inheritance.

        There are private pensions too as the public ones are only €250 ish a week and most people want more than that, but you are pretty much guaranteed that, unless you are both too well-off to qualify for the means tested one and have not paid in to the other. The first €20,000 you have in savings and your home is not taken into account when means testing and you can earn up to €200 a week without it counting. Anything over that, they reduce the pension for every like €30 or something, so you have to have a fair bit before you are not entitled to anything, and again, that’s assuming you aren’t entitled to the non-means tested one.

  113. Mimmy*

    Quick resume question:

    I got my undergraduate degree many years ago; the school has since achieved university status. On my resume, it is listed as Teapot University; however, when I graduated, it was Teapot College. For background check purposes, should I list the school as it is now, or as it was when I graduated? If not on my resume, what about an actual job application, (which I think holds more legal weight from what I understand).

    I should note, I have since pursued graduate education. So perhaps I shouldn’t even put my undergraduate degree on my resume??

    1. fueled by coffee*

      -keep both degrees on your resume
      -I would list “Teapot College,” since that’s where the degree is from, but you could put in parentheses “(now Teapot University)” or similar if you think there would be confusion

  114. Am I?*

    Would you consider two 2-year positions and one three-year position “job hopping”?

    1. Invisible today*

      Depends on how those roles relate to each other. Are they in the same field with promotions / raises between them ? Or are they jumping from one field to another unrelated ?

  115. Awful Feminist*

    QQ – do I have to make an HR report if it isn’t too serious? (E.g. male colleagues playing f*ck-marry-kill with female colleagues’ names, jokes about a colleague tasting the pineapple juice, general dude bro culture). This was on an extended work trip, so there’s a bit of “what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas” (it wasn’t Vegas, but similar concept).

    I don’t want to contribute to that sort of culture / be a bystander, but I’m also at an early stage in my career, don’t want problems, and I feel like it shouldn’t be my responsibility just because I’m female? So is it okay not to?

    1. Invisible today*

      Im sorry that you were witness to it – that is disgusting !!! Were there other women with you this trip, or were you the sole female ? It happened on a work trip and is definitely serious enough to up to report. That being said, i do understand why you are not necessarily comfortable making waves when youre new. A lot depends on how good your HR is (maybe if you have a trusted colleague to ask about how good your org’s HR is).

      Are these pig colleagues your peers or do they outrank you ? Do you share the same manager ? Assuming your manager was not witness to this or worse involved in it – thats another option if you have a good relationship with him/her). If you have female colleagues (especially other new/junior women) you can also help them by “spreading the word” and warning them that such behavior does occur on trips. It may be possible to shut this down in the moment next time if you can see it happening. (And yes nonsense like this WILL have a next time).

      Hope that helps. Sorry your coworkers are jerks !

    2. pancakes*

      I don’t think this is a quick question. It’s not as if there’s one correct answer that simply needs looking up. Similarly, feminism is not about looking at a flowchart and always picking the most-feminist option. Not everything can be reduced to that level of simplicity, or binary thinking.

      It’s not clear to me, for example, what sort of “problems” you anticipate would come with reporting this, or whether you anticipate those problems because of specific things you’ve seen or heard at work or more abstract concerns.

    3. Books and Cooks*

      Coming in late, but…IMO it matters, to some degree, when this happened. I.e. was this a conversation after hours/outside of work-time that you overheard, or was it happening during work time and right in front of you, and you were expected to play along? That makes a big difference to me; maybe some would consider it wrong of me, but I don’t believe in policing the private conversations of others. Also, what are these guys like outside of that trip? Do they generally treat female coworkers and managers with respect, or are they rude and dismissive? Because sometimes people get tipsy or just let themselves get carried away, and behave in ways they might not ordinarily or that don’t really represent them; sometimes women play games like that or get dirty with the jokes, too, and it’s not specifically sexist, it’s just that they have that sense of humor or get a little wacky after a long day. And either way, IMO these guys can privately think every woman they work with ought to be home raising babies, as long as not a hint of that attitude enters their behavior while working.

      But to answer your question specifically: NO, it does not make you a “bad feminist,” and you’re 100% right that it is NOT your responsibility just because you’re female. You’re not the company hall monitor just because you’re a woman. You have every right, and it is totally fine, to just shrug and move on, or decide maybe Bob isn’t as cool as you thought but you’re not going to get him in trouble, you’re just going to keep that in mind.

      And personally, I might talk to one of the guys–the one you know best/feel most comfortable with–before going for something like reporting. A “Hey, you know, it kind of bothered me when you guys were making the jokes about drinking pineapple juice,” said in a casual but straightforward tone, might work wonders, and could give you a lot more information about whether these guys are real jerks or if they were just forgetting themselves/trying to be “cool dudes” to each other. (People can get weirdly competitive about bad behavior, and let things go way farther than they would on their own or in other company.) Especially if this was on a work trip and people felt like it was party time to some degree, I can see that happening.

      As a fellow woman, I don’t think you’re required to do anything at all, and it is totally fine not to. (It is also fine to report it, if you want! But either way it is up to you, and you bear no blame or fault if you choose to let it go.)

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