open thread – July 29-30, 2022

by Alison Green on July 29, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Eva*

    Any tips on staying positive when all your coworkers are quitting?

    My company merged with another company last year, and a year later…it’s a disaster. Over the past year, most people from my original company have quit, but in the past 3 months, MORE of my direct team has quit, and that doesn’t include the VP over my department (the only VP who knew what he was doing; I worked with him closely over the past few years) who quit 3 weeks ago, or the 2 teammates who quit within the past week.

    While the company is a hot mess, my particular role (along with two direct teammates) is actually stable. I have a new boss (who started about 2 months ago), who I like and I think he can make a positive impact. But it’s hard when so many people are leaving, and now I’m nervous my new boss will be looking to leave now that so many people are leaving.

    I’m “kind of” looking at other roles, but I’m not seeing anything I like. I’m actually paid well for my level and have a fantastic work/life balance. But with so many people quitting I’m also freaking out.

    1. Melanie Cavill*

      Can you have an informal conversation with your new boss to take his temperature? If you’re worried the turnover may be giving him pause, then getting an answer to that question either way may help some of your unease.

    2. Overeducated*

      This has happened to me repeatedly since we have very lean staffing with few internal promotion opportunities, so when people inevitably leave, they leave huge gaps. It’s pretty depressing! And it can take a ton of time to fill the vacancies! I think remembering that it’s temporary, a new team will be built up eventually, and focusing on your life outside of work are all I can advise.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh yeah, that’s tough.

      Have you talked to your ex-coworkers about their decisions to resign? Did they get better offers elsewhere? Did the merger change their workload? Had many of them been looking to get out for a while, and the merger just gave them the last shove? If there’s a consistent answer, then you can actually chew on that — see if you can see what they saw. But if the answers are all over the map, then maybe you don’t really have anything to worry about, and it’s just dumb luck that so many resignations all happened at once.

      That also ties into exactly how the company is a hot mess, especially if any of the chaos comes from the merger and it’ll eventually work itself out.

      1. Eva*

        Before his last day I chatted with the VP I mentioned above. He actually quit to help his wife start a new business, completely unrelated to what our company does. Anyway, I picked his brain over what he thought, he said how this year is going to be the “ride or die” year for the employees at our company, and that it would probably get worse before it gets better. He was referring to more of the internal politics and stuff within our company, our industry is doing well.

        Our CMO is not the best though, I had been hearing tea about how toxic and incompetent she is through people that quit. I asked the VP what his honest thoughts were and he said there weren’t some things he was a fan of with her, but overall he said he didn’t have a problem with her. He mentioned how many of the past issues was how she didn’t know our business during the first year of the merger, but now she understands the business better, and that she was doing what she’s supposed to do as a CMO. Part of me also wonders if some of the “problems” people had with her was that she was a woman at a CMO level.

        My take on her? That she’s full of it, HOWEVER, all the other CMOs I’ve had at other companies were all full of it. I do think she’s not easily manipulated and ‘wowed’, which was what I saw with past CMOs (i.e. being impressed with people who knew how to sell themselves)

    4. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Mergers are tricky and do cause people to panic leave, however sometimes the attrition can’t be helped.

      My OldJob was acquired in 2020, and that company basically left us alone. A few people started to leave, but I was willing to ride it out, my job was secure. Then at the end of 2021, it was announced that NewOverlords were being acquired by a MegaOverlords and people started leaving more frequently. I started looking due to circumstances in my family (even if the 2020 merger hadn’t happened, I would had to leave) and did leave in June. Several key people also started to leave since MegaOverlords made it clear that this will be a full merger by 2023. I know my old boss is definitely wondering about her job in the future.

      As to how to stay positive, maybe look at people leaving as job security? My colleague was sad for me to leave, however that gives her a better chance of being kept on as they likely wouldn’t need both of us. If the merger is still in the restructuring phase, unfortunately people leaving is going to continue until things stabilize.

    5. time to apply*

      I’d be sending out applications. If the company is a hot mess, things are not likely to improve, despite your position.

      1. Just Another Cog*

        I agree with this. Years ago, my old company was bought by a new company and they pretty much left us alone for the first year. Then, they started to integrate a bunch of new processes that made our jobs very difficult. Work/life sucked because there was little training and overtime was mandatory. I started to apply for jobs during this time, mostly because I was worrying about my job and how I was going to get all the added work done, rather than sleeping at night. I got a much better job and immediately the worry faded away.

        Turns out, all the new processes being put in place were to ready the company for sale to a mega corporation just after I left. The new company pared down the staff even further with ruthless lay-offs and firings. I dodged a bullet, for sure. Eva, I hope this isn’t the case for you, but do keep your ear to the ground.

    6. Mbarr*

      Once upon a time my office got all riled up over a reorganization. We got shifted to work under a new VP, and all hell broke loose. People were feeling slighted, everyone was complaining that the new VP was useless, quitting, etc. I personally wasn’t affected by the reorg, but I definitely felt the ill effects of low morale.

      The thing is though, eventually the furor died down. Nothing changed. In retrospect, it was just that some senior employees and managers were whipping up people’s emotions, and eventually it all just went away. So this isn’t so much as advice as, maybe the idea that things aren’t as bad as it truly seems.

    7. Beth*

      Can you kind of “blanket fort” in your own group? I assume you’re keeping an eye out in case the rot spreads to you, but as long as your area really is stable, I would lean into that and get what boost I could from the situation. Are your teammates feeling the same way?

      1. Eva*

        Honestly I kind of want one of my direct teammates to leave lol. She’s lazy, super entitled but knows how to show off to management. I could ask my other teammate, who I do like.

        1. Nesprin*

          Woof- you’ve seen a ton of turnover, a lot of disruption and half your working group is not great? You should dust off that resume.

    8. JumpAround*

      Three questions to ask yourself.

      Am I happy with my company culture?
      Am I happy with my work?
      Am I supported by my management?

      If the answer to any of those is no you need to take a look at the impact this is having on you overall and if you want to stay on. If the answer to all three is yes, then you should have a talk with your manager about where you’re at and see if there is anything else that you should know that you can see affecting those answers down the line. This may be temporary and it sucks but I suggest chocolate chip cookies in that case.

      1. Mabelline*

        These are great questions to keep on hand for any job when things start feeling “off.” Really helpful to identify what area is going wrong, how I feel about it, and easier to identify possible courses of action from that point.

    9. Lattes are for lovers*

      I could have written this letter, as your situation mirrors mine to a T.

      Personally, I am primarily looking at roles outside of the company. I have been job hunting since the beginning of this year. I had an offer but didn’t take it for a variety of reasons. I hesitate to look for internal roles because my role is deemed essential and I dont believe management would let take another role internally. I dont really care for the company culture or the work either, which is another reason i am looking to leave.

      If more senior and long-term staff continue to leave, especially if they arent leaving to take another role, be warned. My company has had so many people leave this year without another job lined up because its just that dysfunctional and the workload is unsustainable.

    10. OrdinaryJoe*

      One thing I haven’t seen anyone else mention so I thought I would … IF you were laid off, what do you think your support package would look like? Two weeks? Six months w/medical? There can be a huge range … your employee handbook might spell it out for you. Don’t forget about cashed in vacation time and maybe sick time. The one time I was laid off, the package was fantastic, I was at my new job within a month, and I ended up with a very nice financial windfall. The employees who quit before the lay-offs got nothing.

      Maybe update your resume, keep your eyes out for anything really interesting, use whatever time won’t be paid out (in my case, sick time) and horde what will be paid out (vacation) and maybe ride it to the end.

    11. BEC*

      Do you have a sense of what the root of your concern is? It usually helps me to be able to verbalize exactly what I’m worried about, which transforms it from this amorphous looming blob of anxiety into a specific concern that can be laid down and seen clearly and a plan made.

      Some prompt questions if they’re helpful to help you pull it out:

      What emotion do you have?
      What need is not being met?

      What are you concerned about?
      What’s the worst thing about that?
      If that happens, do you have a plan to handle it?

      Needs and emotions words:

      Needs: https://www.cnvc.org/sites/default/files/2018-10/CNVC-needs-inventory.pdf

      Feelings when your needs are and are not being met: https://www.cnvc.org/sites/default/files/feelings_inventory_0.pdf

    12. Chauncy Gardener*

      I totally get your panic, but there’s another way to look at it. Are you building your resume? Do you like your job? Do you like your boss? Are you fairly compensated? If yes, then you’re OK. Sure, the current situation may be a s***show, but where there is a s**show, there is opportunity. Just because many people are quitting doesn’t mean you have to as well. Make sure you look at things through the “what is good for YOU lens,” don’t just run off the cliff with the lemmings. Not saying that leaving might not be the best thing, but only you can answer that without taking into consideration anyone else.

  2. Melanie Cavill*

    Can anyone advise on the etiquette regarding informing my boss that I’ve applied for an internal posting in a different department? Timeline-wise, there’s currently nothing to tell; I’ve been advised I won’t hear about next steps (if any) until the posting closes in August. If I get an interview, should I disclose it? We get along well and I don’t believe they’ll be unsupportive, and I don’t want them caught by surprised; but I also don’t want to create a situation where they believe I’m itching to leave. (I kind of am, but you don’t want your boss to know that!)

    1. Annony*

      Since it is internal, you should probably tell your boss sooner rather than later. Although you won’t hear anything until the posting closes, they may reach out to him earlier. Depending on the policy at your company, they may need to talk to him before even offering you an interview.

    2. Coelura*

      Talk to your recruiter. It’s important to know when the recruiter or hiring manager will reach out to your current manager – you’ll want to get in front of that & be the one to tell your current manager.

    3. Sandwiches*

      I was in a similar situation (with a boss that had arrived just a few months earlier), and since we were still WFH full-time at the time, I scheduled a quick phone meeting with her before I applied. I let her know which department I was applying with and why, and that this specific position seemed interesting to me. I think I told her outright that I’m not unhappy or trying to leave, I just felt like this specific job was suited to my skills. She was very understanding about it and encouraged me to apply!

    4. Katie*

      Honestly, if it’s an internal role, I would be up front. Heck, part of the internal application process is agreeing to tell your current manager. A good manager is also helping with your career (internally) as well.

    5. Everything Bagel*

      You should check with HR to see what your company policy is. I once applied for an internal position and even asked the hiring manager about this, who misinformed me that I would have to tell my current manager once I am chosen for the job. She was wrong. I was supposed to tell my manager before I to apply for an internal job. The company actually had rules about this. Don’t let your manager find out the wrong way that you’re looking to leave. Ask HR what the rules are.

      1. Ancient Llama*

        This ^^^ know your actual co rule.
        If you to have to say, think about why you are looking to leave and if because new job does more X or you don’t think is growth/promo opportunity in your role, that can make convo with current boss an opportunity. Maybe to advocate that if you don’t move, is there things in current role that could change to give you some X or a different way to grow.

    6. Lolli*

      Don’t say anything until you accept the offer, just like an external job. Your boss may find out, from the hiring manager, if you are the final candidate. That is how it works at my job. But if your boss is offended you didn’t tell them earlier, that is not really your problem. You need to protect your current job until your have a new one. People move within an organization all the time. It is perfectly normal for you to keep mum about your job search.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        This seems to be the outlier here. At my company, my manager would have some say in whether I change departments and could actually delay or block it completely. Of course, that would be stupid because then I would just be looking to get out of the company, but that’s how it works here.

        1. Fran Fine*

          That’s how it’s worked at every company I’ve ever worked for as well (four companies in the last 12 years).

          OP, please just ask your HR department what the procedure is for this before you do anything else. They’re going to be the people best positioned to guide you through your particular company’s processes, not a bunch of strangers on the internet giving conflicting advice. If you don’t have an HR department, inquire with another high-level person first and then speak directly to your manager as a heads up.

          1. Melanie Cavill*

            Yeah, after reading the mix of responses, I shot an email off to HR. I’m leaning heavily toward telling my team lead when I see her next, but it never occurred to me that a company might require that sort of disclosure ahead of the application. Fortunately, there’s nothing explicitly saying as much in my company’s guidelines! But better safe than sorry.

            1. Fran Fine*

              Yes, exactly! You definitely don’t want to ruffle any feathers unnecessarily right now. Good luck!

      2. Loulou*

        This is strange advice — it’s not up to you at many organizations, where it’s a requirement to tell your manager. Ignoring that requirement would be the opposite of protecting your current job until you have a new one!

    7. AlexandrinaVictoria*

      My company requires I tell my manager when I get an interview, not when I apply. But I did let her know in general that I was looking before I started applying.

    8. KrazyKat44*

      I just put in 3 internal applications myself. At my company you have to tell your manager before you apply to any internal jobs, so check with your company policy. If you have to or just want to, I went with a direct approach “I saw the open position for ‘training’ and decided to throw my hat in the ring.” or ” I wanted to let you know I’m going to apply to the open position in ‘operations’.

    9. Pool Lounger*

      Depends on company culture. At my partner’s huge company you tell your boss when you apply. The hiring managers talk to peopkes’ bosses as part of the application.

    10. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      As well as HR, it’s worth thinking about the size of your organization and how much interaction managers have with other departments. I was once at an organization with 250-300 people and it took me a long time to realize that the hiring manager would ALWAYS informally check in with my current manager because everyone knew each other and the roles were all similar enough that the manager’s thoughts were relevant.

      As a manager myself now, I can’t imagine not asking an internal candidate’s current supervisor how they find working with that person, both in terms of concrete skills and interpersonal ones. This kind of thing is often happening whether there are policies in place or not, and you don’t want your current manager to find out from someone other than you if you have an opportunity to control the narrative from the start.

    11. Sapphire*

      At my company and every one I have ever worked for, the culture has been to inform your manager any time you are considering applying for an internal transfer. I recently was contacted by another department leader telling me one of my direct reports reached out to him to express interest in a position on that team and asked me if I had been informed. I hadn’t been told. The hiring manager for the internal role wasn’t pleased that the candidate hadn’t cleared it with his own manager first and ultimately did not get the role.

  3. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

    I recently started a new job that was a huge salary increase from my previous position (over 60%) and I was super worried that because of the increase I would struggle and be in over my head. So far all my fears have been eliminated. While I know things will get more challenging as I get into more advanced projects, my first task is a highly visible project that everyone that reports to my grand-boss will see. So far people couldn’t be more thrilled with it.

    I’ve seen a lot of people lately post they got new jobs with large increases, and I just want to assure anyone who may be having imposter syndrome or feeling nervous heading into a new role, that a large increase doesn’t mean your work will be 60% more difficult. Most jobs can be learned and what you don’t know today, you’ll know tomorrow.

    3. JelloStapler*

      …and also keep in mind that you were very likely underpaid in your previous job due to salary compression for longer tenured employees. it could just be that you are now being paid what you’re worth.

    4. you deserve a raise*

      co-signing this! I “only” got a 20% increase, but going from corporate to non-profit (I was expecting to take a cut) – my new title also had “senior” in the title so I had small twinges of panic that the role would be much more difficult, more stressful, or that the managers would expect more knowledge than I was coming in with. The opposite was true – I was just underpaid in the corporate role.

    6. cowwomaninhiding*

      Congratulations on your new job! Thank you for this. I also am changing jobs and feeling that imposter syndrome. Big increase about 24%. Feeling nervous as I finish out my notice period. New job wanted me to start sooner, but I want to leave on good terms.

      1. feline outerwear catalog*

        Thank you, I’m starting a new job next week and have been totally feeling this. I think some of it is that it’s my first post pandemic job bonus imposter syndrome, too. I’ve been working from home with 1x/week in office and moving to a hybrid role with 3x/week with people I haven’t met in person yet, so feeling a bit awkward about that, too. All my interview meetings were virtual.

    7. tiredlibrarian*

      congratulations! But honestly I’m mostly posting ’cause I LOVE your name! :D

  4. Stop wiggling the mouse*

    I’m in a culture shift. I git a new job a few months ago, and it’s wonderful. But I’m having trouble with an unexpected change, that being that I’m not being micromanaged. I don’t know how to let go of the mouse wiggling to keep my status light green. Nobody seems to notice or care or comment, but I can’t seem to let go. Any tips?

    1. Heather*

      Just give it time! I don’t think you’ll need to pro-actively do anything, you’ll just naturally settle in.

      I also went from a role where I felt like I needed to look busy, to one where all I need to do is get my work done. Old habits die hard but you eventually just get used to it.

    2. Beth*

      It can be massively disorientating!

      If you have any major projects or key tasks that you can dive into at this time, something that you would naturally be very focussed on doing, that really helped me. After a few weeks in which I’d spent hours every day free to actually FOCUS on the work I was doing, without stupid interruptions and pointless interference, it still felt new and amazing but was no longer so new it was raw. I had the extra benefits that it was work I enjoyed, I got great satisfaction out of losing myself in it, I did a great job of it, and it was appreciated in my new work environment.

    3. Saraquill*

      Would bringing a fidget toy to work help? You can play with that when you feel the urge to wiggle your mouse. A reasonable office shouldn’t get annoyed at someone taking thirty second to venting energy.

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        I was gonna suggest something similar! I dunno if it would help with any mental baggage over the feeling you should be doing something, but if it’s just the urge to be active physically, then keeping your hands busy might help.

    4. Gnome*

      Personally, I suggest scheduling bathroom breaks a couple times a day for a few minutes longer than you need. Not that you need to, or to advertise them on your calendar or anything (and certainly go other times if you need to!), but it will enforce that it’s normal to step away from your screen (particularly if you are remote) in a way that’s natural and won’t make it awkward if someone says something. Like if someone says, oh I tried to call you a few minutes ago, you’d just say “I was in the restroom” which is, of course, a totally normal thing that happens. Basically, just find a way to give yourself permission to breathe :)

    5. Miette*

      Have you tried physically moving the mouse away when you’re not actively using it? If it’s not right at-hand, you may be less likely to keep reaching for it.

      1. All Monkeys are French*

        Wait, is this a literal thing? Like the team sees if you’re active when your mouse is physically moving? (I clearly don’t have this kind of job.)
        I was taking this metaphorically, like inserting yourself into conversations to talk about work you’re doing when no one asked.

        1. Camellia*

          My job uses Teams and yes, there is a status circle that is green, but turns yellow when your mouse has not been moved in a few minutes. It turns red when you are on a call or in a (Teams) meeting. So everyone that uses Teams can see your “status” at any given time.

        2. Still working*

          We have “Busy” light that changes color depending on how “active” our computer is. It’s controlled by Teams.

    6. Junior Dev*

      Don’t do it to the point of stressing yourself out but can you think of some goals you have at work and write a little about them each day, to just be accountable to yourself? Like start each day with 5 minutes of writing what you mean to get done and end it with 5-10 minutes of writing what you did well, are struggling with, and want to do tomorrow. Maybe make at least one of the goals something about self-care and boundaries, like “turn off laptop by 5:15” or “take a full hour for lunch” or something.

    7. BEC*

      How about scheduling appointments with yourself on your calendar for the blocks of work things you’re working on?

      It puts your status to ‘busy’ and offers you (and anyone who might be looking at your calendar) a visual reminder of everything you ARE working on, which can be reassuring to you that you aren’t slacking.

    8. Purple Penguin*

      I know it’s not about the mouse. I’m completely not micromanaged and I still go to effort to keep my computer from going dark or marking me as “away”. It’s not about thinking somebody will suspect I’m farting around on my phone checking recipes for dinner tonight (I am!) it’s more about thinking that if somebody had a question for me but saw my Teams light wasn’t green they might not ask it. I’d like to think that it’s about actual availability (internal motivation) and not the appearance of activity (external micromanagey motivation) even though the outcome is the same. Part of it for me is also declaring in my head when I’m taking a break (15 minutes till the next meeting, what’s for dinner tonight) and being ok with that, only feeling guilty when I catch myself goofing off when I haven’t declared a break.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Maybe you could channel that mouse wiggle into time-tracking before anyone starts asking about metrics. You’d be able to create a baseline to look at in a few months if/when you’re feeling down on yourself.
      “Sure this project is rough but look at that — it’s on top of grooming twice as many llamas as I used to be able to do in a day!”

  5. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

    My workload has more than doubled and my job description radically altered since I started in December 2021, and the talking bobbleheads at the top have announced that due to falling profits from the pandemic, there won’t be any annual raises this year.

    This after they paid off the local government into changing the name of the street we’re located on to that of the company founder (who was from and lived in another country, died there many years ago, will never care, and no one locally can pronounce or spell the new street name, causing all kinds of havoc with deliveries and directions. Also, the other businesses on this newly renamed street are understandably PISSED.)

    Now, instead of raises or improved work conditions, they’re making everyone fill out surveys about whether we’d rather have company baseball game days or family movie nights. (Unfortunately for them, they put a “leave your suggestions here” blank box in the form. You can guess the “creative” responses people are leaving.)

    And they wonder why turnover is so high and morale so low.

    1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

      (Street name went from the equivalent of Fox Road to Whackadingdang Blunderbuss-Xptemanr Way. Not only is it a name most people in this part of the world have never encountered in their entire lives, it’s ridiculously long for a street name. Normally I’m all for bumping people out of their cultural comfort zones. But this name change was done without regard for how it would affect everyone else on the street, and everyone knows it happened because the terrible current president is trying to curry favor with the founder’s son-and-global-CEO so he won’t get canned for running the company into the ground in his short time here.)

      1. Melanie Cavill*

        I know it wasn’t what you intended, but “Whackadingdang Blunderbuss-Xptemanr Way” made me laugh so hard my stomach hurts. So thank you for that bit of Friday cheer.

        1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

          Your comment made me realize that Whackadingdang Blunderbuss-Xptemanr Way sounds like the secret long-lost brother of Ebony Dark’ness Dementia Raven Way in the infamous My Immortal fanfiction, and now I’m laughing. XD

          1. Mallory Janis Ian*

            Ha my kids and I love that fanfic — we still say we’re “deprezzed and crying tears of blood” whenever something minorly inconveniences us.

      2. Gnome*

        Obviously it is unpronounceable… It needs a nickname. I propose Brown-nose Boulevard

    2. Choggy*

      Sounds like a case of toxic positivity, Rome may be burning but at least we can roast marshmallows!

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        That’s not a bad idea! I’ve got all the fixins–I’m gonna make s’mores tonight to kick off my weekend!

          1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

            XD I don’t know where I learned it, but may it serve you as well as it has me!

    4. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      Isn’t it astonishing the crap executives are willing to spend gobs of money on.

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        Raises? Nah, not vital.

        Safer working conditions in the shops? Nah, it’s fiiiiiiine, we only have to get an ambulance out here every few weeks.

        Suck up to the CEO by renaming a street in a country he doesn’t live in after his deceased dad? *WHIPS OUT CHECKBOOK*

        1. Hlao-roo*

          Safer working conditions in the shops? Nah, it’s fiiiiiiine, we only have to get an ambulance out here every few weeks.

          O.o

          1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

            I’m pretty sure the company isn’t saving anything by failing to improve safe working conditions, when you think abut how much they’ve had to pay out in lawsuits and settlements….

    5. SyFyGeek*

      Except for the founder being dead, I thought that either I had written this, or someone in my company had.
      My workload doubled, my boss recognized it, and said he’d fight for me to get a “significant raise”. I got 1.5%.

      And the road the city has renamed has the residents up in arms- they’ve lived their 20+ years and now have a street name they can’t pronounce.

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        Oh my god, there are TWO of these terrible situations out there right now? Ineffective bosses and raise freezes are a dime a dozen, but unwanted street name changes are a special level of awful. You’re disrupting the lives/businesses of so many uninvolved people!

        I only work here because it’s close enough to home I can carpool. As soon as I have my own vehicle (probably not “soon” at all given what the pandemic has done to auto prices :/), I am OUT of here the minute I find something else. Or if I get the resources to launch my side business and make it my main hustle.

      2. DataGirl*

        Same here! The only difference is the renamed road is pronounceable.

        Colleagues and I have decided the Execs are following the used car sales model- slap a shiny new coat of paint on the car but leave the cracked engine and blown gaskets in place, just don’t tell the buyer what is under the hood.

        1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

          This is a VERY apt analogy. I’m amazed how long crooked employers get away with it. The company I’m at keeps on trucking due to being the only manufacturer in the world of specific transportation equipment parts. But even if it weren’t a vital service, I’m pretty sure the rich dudes at the top would keep schmoozing their way out of every bit of trouble they cause for themselves through their mismanaging of the company.

    6. JelloStapler*

      UGH we get “give us ideas about staff retention but don’t talk about salary”… when everyone knows we are hugely underpaid and overworked.

      Nope, family night at the Zoo won’t work for me.

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        Maybe Zoo night would work for me if the execs were on the menu for the large carnivore enclosures….(Okay, so I’m not THAT vindictive. But I also wouldn’t go to the funerals.)

  6. Annie*

    Hi all, how bad do you think it is to have a covid-positive employee come into the office after hours? Pretty bad, right? I am HR for a very small company. We had an employee test positive on Wednesday and he is doing a combination of sick time and work from home. But we do physical work with machines, so there are some jobs that we can’t really do without him onsite and we have deadlines. I didn’t realize they had arranged to have him come in after hours to do a job. The next day, employees were upset and we had someone go home sick because they were afraid of being exposed. I put a stop to it and told the positive employee not to come in and we are figuring out how to get all the work done. I don’t think surface transmission is very common and the positive employee masked and cleaned surfaces. But I’m wondering if I should apologize to the employee who went home sick. Everyone else claimed to be okay with it, though. So maybe it’s not the end of the world?

    1. CTT*

      I think the real issue is that this employee is coming in after hours instead of just recuperating. But if they’re in an empty room and there won’t be anyone else there for hours, the health risk is most likely minimal.

      1. ThatGirl*

        The risk is minimal, but the worker should be at home recuperating, not feeling forced to work. This whole American work ethic thing is a scam. The better rest you get, the sooner you recover.

      2. Notfunny.*

        The health risk to others is most likely minimal, do we know what the health risk is for this individual?

        1. CTT*

          Yeah, I meant the risk to others is minimal, but there is a risk that this drags out the recovery for the employee.

      3. RagingADHD*

        Is the employee actually experiencing symptoms of illness, though? Plenty of people test positive and never have any symptoms at all, or only have minimal symptoms that resolve long before they stop testing positive. Recuperating isn’t an issue if there’s nothing to recuperate from.

    2. Bagpuss*

      Assuming no one else was having to be with him when he came in or was there voluntarily and with appropriate PPE then the risk to others is minimal – they are probaby at far higher risk going into a shop, or passing people on the street.

      If the worker feels well enough and is willing to come in then fine, but if they were being put under pressure to come even though they were ill then that, rahter than the others in the office, is the issue that is of concern.

      I do know that it’s possible to test positive without feeling unwell, or feeling no worse than with a mild cold, so I don’t think his working while poisitive is automatically a bad thing, but it is very much a ase of whether heis genuinely OK with that or felt pressured.

      It sounds as though soem cross-training as soon as he is back would be sensobleso that you don’t grind to a halt if he is aunvailable. What would the firm have done had he been hospitalised? Or found a new job?

    3. MI Dawn*

      I work from home, so take this with a grain of salt. In late May, I tested positive for Covid, although the people I’d been with for several days previously never did (we are all vaccinated and double boosted). To be honest, I never felt sick. The worst I felt was “is this allergies, a cold, or covid? I can’t tell.” So I could have easily gone into work if I had to. If I absolutely needed to go in, I would have done the same the coworker did – remained masked, clean surfaces, and made sure the ventilation systems were functioning at top priority.

      I know it’s not ideal, but sometimes it does have to happen. The best thing would definitely cross-train others or hire additional people so you don’t have to ask sick people (any illness!) to come in to work.

    5. Beth*

      + eleventy billion!

      I just had a fine moment: my boss came in yesterday with what he called a cold. This morning, he called to say he was feeling worse and had gone back to bed, but maybe he’d be in later. I was actually able to tell my boss, in so many words, “If you feel sick, STAY HOME.”

      I’m still left hoping it really is just a cold, but it did feel very satisfying to make the point.

      2. Curmudgeon in California*

        Yes!!

        I am all for this, having gotten very, very sick repeatedly at jobs because people came in sick and spread it all though the open plan office (pre-covid.) Now I only work remote, both because of immune compromised housemates and the realization that people haven’t changed their inconsiderate behavior in spite of a deadly pandemic!

        Seriously, good on you!!

    6. Ginger Pet Lady*

      It’s BAD. For multiple reasons:
      1. Making a sick person work instead of resting and recuperating. And not just work, but also CLEAN AND SANITIZE afterward?
      2. Potential for transmission as it can linger in the air for a while. It’s low, but it is possible.
      3. Working on machinery alone in the shop. If there’s a problem, and employee gets hurt, who is there to help?
      4. Your whole business depends on ONE person to do this work? That’s not great. If they quit tomorrow, you’d be screwed. If they get hit by a bus, you’d be screwed. If they get disabled by long Covid because you made them work instead of rest, you’re screwed.
      Yes, apologize to the employee who went home sick. But also apologize to the person who was forced to come in and work nights while sick with Covid.
      And pray they don’t quit over it. I might very well have quit on the spot if I was told I had to come work at night while sick with Covid!
      What the hell is wrong with employers?

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Seriously. If I was sick and my employer told me I had to come in to do stuff anyway I might rage quit on the spot. If my employer wants me to chose between my job and my health, my health will win every damned time!! I have quit over health matters before and I would do it again.

        Jobs come and go, but your health is with you always.

      2. Nesprin*

        Oh man I missed the “working with machinery” alone element of this- this is really really not right.

        1. Fact & Fiction*

          It’s absolutely not! So dangerous. Accidents can happen at any time.

          Not exactly the same, but we recently had someone tragically die in a local gym because they were working out with heavy weights alone at night (full members have 24-hour access even when workers aren’t on-site) and had an accident. Unfortunately they weren’t found for at least an hour when the next person came in to work out overnight.

    7. Twisted Lion*

      Covid aside, its not great that your company (albeit small) has a single point of failure where it relies on one person. I think maybe this is an opportunity to say hey we need other people to be trained on this.

    9. njcovid*

      As with all anecdata, YMMV. I am fully vaccinated with 2 booster shots , sick with Covid this week. 103° fever, deep wracking cough, massive headache, fatigue, difficulty breathing…..Covid can still be a serious illness, it’s not over yet.

      Can we please just stop with the myth of the indispensable, non-executive empoyee? And the nobility of working while sick.

      If your company can’t survive without this person for a few days then you have an unsustainable business model.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        If your company can’t survive without this person for a few days then you have an unsustainable business model.

        This.

        Working while sick is dumb, it risks other employees and risks making the illness worse! Plus there is a higher risk of major errors and omissions.

        Cross train, even in a small shop, and your business won’t go under when the main person gets “hit by a bus” (accident, illness, wins the lottery, etc.)

    10. Nesprin*

      If you can’t figure out how to keep someone with a deadly infectious disease home for 5 days, you have bigger problems. Seriously, why isn’t there a backup?

    11. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Removed a bunch of conflicting information about Covid prevention that I’m not able to sort out or moderate. People looking for info on that should consult public health sources, not take advice from anonymous internet commenters.

  7. Bully Bosses*

    Has anyone had the experience of being repeatedly targeted by bully bosses? This has happened to a family member of mine numerous times across multiple jobs throughout her life. I’ve run into a bully once or twice but nothing like what she’s experienced. If you’ve witnessed or experienced something like this, do you have any insight into why this dynamic was repeated, and how to put a stop to it? I’m not blaming the victim, just trying to understand what may be happening and how she can best address it. 

    1. ImInSpace*

      Personally, I’ve been targeted because I did not do a personal favour for my boss and she took great offence at this. I was a new employee and I left after only 2 months of employment there.

      Throughout my short career (I’m in my 20s) I’ve seen friends and coworkers being specifically targeted by their bosses as they are large underperformers and wanted them gone from their department. Instead of firing them, they created a hostile environment for these employees so they will leave on their own.

      This is what I’ve experienced personally and what I’ve observed.

    2. Jane*

      I know someone like this and it was crushing for her – so hard for her not to think it’s her fault, and I know some acquaintances just didn’t take her problems seriously because who has two psycho bosses in a row? (She does apparently!)

      This is someone who has experienced abuse in an intimate relationship so maybe there’s something there. But also that the second job was something she took from a position of weakness because the first one was so torpedoed. So I think that might be part of it. She is also someone who definitely always believes the best of people and is friends with a wide spectrum of people because she always focuses on the good side, so I think she probably misses red flags.

      1. Bully Bosses*

        “She is also someone who definitely always believes the best of people and is friends with a wide spectrum of people because she always focuses on the good side, so I think she probably misses red flags.”

        That rings true, my family member is the same way.

        1. Mabelline*

          This is a pretty common combination. I have a very good friend who is absolutely the Glinda to my Elphaba and believes so strongly in the good in people that she can’t see it when they’re awful to her until it’s too late. I’m a little more skeptical than is probably healthy, so I try to see people through her rose-colored glasses and she’s working on viewing people through a more guarded and critical lens.
          It’s worth noting that bullies actively look for and target people like this, so it’s possible she’s getting hired into these positions because she gives off a something they read as punching bag vibes. That’s not her fault and it sucks that people read it, but maybe do some practice interviews or something with her to work on projecting confidence and “not gonna put up with your BS” energy.

          1. Curmudgeon in California*

            Yeah, I had a lot of problem like this when I was younger until I refined my IDGAF vibe. I was bullied in school, was very socially awkward, and was bullied in several jobs because I had some sort of metaphysical “Kick Me” sign on my back that bullies homed in on. It took years to ditch that sign, and even more years of learning to see the warning signs of toxic workplaces and companies starting to circle the drain. Now I could damn near give courses on it.

            I really recommend reading books like “The No Asshole Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn’t” and “The Asshole Survival Guide: How to Deal with People Who Treat You Like Dirt” by Robert I. Sutton.

        2. AnonForThis*

          When I encounter someone who has what appears to be terrible luck in bosses or relationships, there’s usually more than just random bad luck going on.

          The combination of bad judgement and inability to stand up for themselves is a bad one – they miss the red flags, or tell themselves a story to explain what’s going on, then when the bully pushes at them, they sit there and take it. Bullies and abusive partners are attracted to this like moths to a light. A subset of this is people who were raised in dysfunctional or abusive environments, and think this is normal, or that they deserve it.

          The other version is, of course, the person who hasn’t actually ended up in a series of bullying jobs, they just are perpetually convinced that everyone is treating them badly and being unfair, and nothing is ever their fault.

    3. Manchmal*

      I don’t have any great insight, but I have a friend who has had similar experiences. Job after job, they report being bullied (with really pretty shocking stories) by bosses and advisors. This person has a history of victimization as a child, and I sometimes wonder whether there isn’t something about them that predators or sociopaths can sniff out, that they can be more easily bullied than others without that background? Of course, I’m not there to witness anything, I just hear what my friend tells me. I believe them, but there could also be that they misinterpret things or react to things in a way that escalates the situation.

      1. Bully Bosses*

        I was wondering this too, she also has a history of being bullied in childhood and in intimate relationships.

        1. Still At It*

          I have not been bullied on the job, but I did have a bully boss once. He targeted two other women, and they both had a tendency to get distraught and tearful. When he tried yelling at me about something ridiculous, I yelled back at him, and he never did it again. I’m not advocating yelling back, just giving the total opposite side of the coin. Another female coworker kept his bullying away with a more professional but nonetheless firm attitude toward him; I never saw her yell, but she did throw her pen across a conference table once when he was being appalling. He never bullied men. So my observation is that how you respond to the first instance of lunacy is what either stops it or makes you a target, and that could very well align with a past of traumatic conflicts of a number of kinds.

          1. Bully Bosses*

            I’m like you, I would yell back. My sense is that she doesn’t push back, just apologizes and tries to be more and more accommodating.

            1. pancakes*

              I suspect that’s what many bullying bosses are looking for on some level, someone who reliably absorbs the impact of having been yelled at, etc., without turning it back on them.

              1. Curmudgeon in California*

                It is. They home in on the “pleasers” and “apologetics”, also the people who just suck it up and don’t push back. Anyone who is “different” is often taught to be more accommodating of abuse, and bullies home in on that. It can take a long time to get out of being an automatic target in both your personal and professional life after being bullied for over a decade in school.

            2. Weaponized Pumpkin*

              Sounds like “fawning”, a trauma reaction that I’ve only seen talked about recently. Goes along with fight, flight, and freeze. It’s when people appease the bully to try to avoid the blow-ups.

            3. Mac*

              This sounds so much like my own experience. I also have a history of childhood and intimate partner abuse (including a partner who assaulted me while I was at work, so I’m sure that adds a whole other layer). In work settings when someone yells at me, I just freeze. And when it’s more subtle bullying that doesn’t involve loudness, I absolutely go into fawning mode.
              Only once do I remember working up the nerve to ask a manager not to yell at me, and that was only because we had otherwise up til then had a really positive relationship. Even so, it took me a good hour to work up the courage, and my voice was SHAKING with terror.
              I don’t have much concrete advice for you other than keep validating for her that she is right to be upset by this treatment and that she doesn’t deserve it. And of course encourage her to seek as much mental health support (therapy and survivor support groups have both been incredibly helpful for me) as she is able to access. Sending warm wishes to you both.

          2. Robin Ellacott*

            I agree, they try it once and either back down or keep going based on the reaction they get. That’s been my observation of the few bullies I’ve worked with over the years.

            Which sucks, because it’s hard to regulate your reaction when someone does something startling and upsetting. Maybe if your family member could practice an all-purpose, easy reaction phrase it might be easier to react assertively than when they’re also trying to fight historical demons in the moment.

      2. Beth*

        I have seen something along those lines: friends who, if anyone is going to be bullied in any environment, it’s them. Bullies and sociopaths are really, really good at identifying prey.

        I also had years of being a primo bully target, which gradually decreased mostly due to therapy; apparently my new sense of self also included not radiating “kick me” vibes any more. (Apparently, my vibe is now “Mess with me and I will rip off your arm and beat you to death with the wet end.” The change took a long time.)

        But it’s a huge task to suggest therapy or assertiveness training without coming across as victim-blaming. It’s not the victim’s fault! And yet: there may be some things that some chronic victims can do to make themselves less vulnerable.

        1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

          I think your therapy experience is key. Bullies do very subtle things to test the water to find victims; some people are aware of those subtle tests and the ones that push back, the bully tends to leave alone for the most part because at their root, a bully is a coward; the ones that don’t push back or don’t see the signs, the bully ramps up their bullying. Some of the testing for victims might actually start off looking like overtures of friendship because they prey on the fears and insecurities of the victim — “you’re really a very kind person” or “I trust you not to say anything”. Bullies are very good at picking up on fears and insecurities.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            The rule of three applies here. If we see something three times we have a pattern and it is okay to address the pattern. This makes sense. Once is a mistake, twice is a heads up, third time is deliberate.

            It’s very easy to believe our words mean nothing, so we don’t try. “Bob, you have bumped into me in the hallway several times. Please be more careful not to bump me.” “Cathy, this is the third time you hung up on me and I wasn’t finished telling everything that the boss said. Please don’t hang up on me again.”

            Some folks will argue don’t use the word “please”. There’s merit to that. But my preference is the first time I say something, I do use “please”. This lays the ground work for a stronger second statement if I need to say something again. I do not have to use please the first time, and I probably won’t the second time.

            Rule of three. See something three times that is not a coincidence but rather a pattern.

            There are times where something is so over the top that even a second instance is not necessary. It’s okay to say something right away. Or DO something, such as quit. I had a boss raise his hand to strike a cohort. Weeks later when he raised his hand to me, I walked off immediately. Hitting is never okay.

        2. Bully Bosses*

          Was there something specific that you worked on in therapy that you found most helpful? Or just generally becoming healthier?

          1. Migraine Month*

            I have always found the exercises in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy very helpful.

            Personally, I was struggling to ask former professors write me letters of recommendation for grad school, because I couldn’t get over how inconvenient it would be for them. I was given a huge list of tasks that mildly inconvenienced other people. For example, “Ask a salesperson to check if there is more of a product in the back” or “Ask someone if they can make change for a $5.” After a few weeks of doing the exercises, I was able to ask the professors for letters of recommendation (and I started telling waitstaff when they brought the wrong dish instead of just eating it).

            I’m certain there are similar exercises for dealing with bullying behavior, one small building block at a time.

            1. Curmudgeon in California*

              Awesome. I may have to check that out, because I’m always reticent about asking for help.

          2. smeep248*

            I have gotten better about setting boundaries and not being a doormat by reading up on Codependency. It has helped me a ton in learning why I did what I did, and how to stop doing it.

      3. Johanna Cabal*

        As someone bullied by a parent which led to further victimization by peers in school, this rings uncomfortably true.

        I haven’t really had a true bully boss but I have definitely put up with toxicity of the top-down type at jobs. Sometimes I do wish I had spoken up more at my first job out of college but they were paying for my master’s and I feared losing that if I were fired.

        It’s also hard because not having experience standing up for myself, I have trouble being assertive without coming across too strong. I just haven’t had good models for assertiveness. Aggressiveness, definitely from my bully parent, but not assertiveness.

      4. OhGee*

        I’ve also wondered if people who experience this are really identified as vulnerable by bullies/abusers. I have a friend who has experienced so much bullying in various workplaces and also comes from an abusive family. I do not have any evidence to support the possiblity that there’s a connection but I wonder if there have been any scientific studies on this phenomenon.

      5. gmg22*

        I’ve had some experiences like this both in childhood (I was the nerdy kid with the glasses in elementary school in the 1980s) and then in the workplace and elsewhere as an adult — and sometimes I almost get the sense, in situations where someone is being pushy or bullying-adjacent with me, that they can “smell my fear.”

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          I swear they home in on something. It’s like walking in a bad neighborhood at night. Some people never get messed with, some people always get messed with. Human predators have a nose for prey.

      6. Falling Diphthong*

        In a school/camp/scouts/etc setting, I think there is a divide–some people get unlucky and in one of those places they are bullied, while the others are all fine. Other people are bullied everywhere they go–in which case I think trying to figure out what signals you’re sending to the bullies of the world is the way to go, because changing your location won’t be enough.

      7. Dust Bunny*

        I think they/we must be identfiable.

        I was bullied in elementary and middle school (until we moved to an entirely different state and I got to start over). I was a very timid, un-confident kid.

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          I was bullied in school in two different states thousands of miles apart. I was nerdy, fat, smart, wore glasses and was socially inept. It didn’t stop until college, then started up again in the workplace until I learned how to push back.

      8. RC Rascal*

        Predators can smell a former victim.

        I was victimized in early childhood by a relative and have struggled with this my entire life. Therapy and quality work experience has helped me minimize it at work but I struggle in my personal life.

        Predators are attracted to me. If I was in a room with 99 other women and one abusive man he would choose me.

        1. Camellia*

          I hear you, see my reply below. There is hope, but healing is hard. Please keep up the struggle; don’t give up!

      9. Camellia*

        This. Bullies and other predators can spot those who are groomed to be victims. This happened to me repeatedly, along with strangers or near-strangers coming up to me/sitting next to me and dumping their own tales of abuse on me, because we “victims” can also spot each other. My first husband even remarked that I had the worst luck with bosses he had ever seen.

        I worked hard for many years to heal myself, and this was exactly how I could tell I was getting better – fewer bullies/predators hiring me and/or engaging with me in other situations, and fewer victims interacting with me.

        How am I doing now? Now no one messes with me.

      10. RagingADHD*

        There is absolutely a correlation between childhood victimization and being targeted by bullies or predators as an adult. Childhood victimization screws up a person’s ability to distinguish those who are trustworthy from those who are dangerous, because the harm is usually perpetrated by someone the child must trust and rely on to survive. They have to trust dangerous people.

        Children also have to normalize the way they are treated in order to survive mentally. So their yellow and red flags are not calibrated correctly. They may grow up to over-react to a harmless situation or under-react to a terrible situation.

        Bullies and predators subtly test a person’s yellow-flag or trust mechanisms early on when meeting them. Someone who gives healthy, subtle resistance back gets filtered out. That could be something as minor as looking puzzled or asking what they meant when they make a weird remark. Or a very minor, casual “no thank you” to an offer. It could be a zinger “joke” that gets a zinger reply. Or just a zinger joke that gets a blank face. For the bully this lack of payoff means the person is a hard target and not worth the trouble. To the person being tested, they will barely notice it happened at all, because they are responding naturally without thinking about it.

        When someone overthinks and over-reacts to these tests, or goes along with them without any resistance at all, the bully will keep testing and escalating until the tests are outright bullying behavior.

        1. AnonForThis*

          Bullies and predators subtly test a person’s yellow-flag or trust mechanisms early on when meeting them.

          It was a part of the interview process for one of my bully bosses. Scheduled a surprise interview in an hour, and implied I wouldn’t be considered for the job if I couldn’t make it. Repeated this again for the second interview. I’ve learned a lot since then about standing up for myself.

    4. Bullied employee*

      I put up with a bully boss for way longer than a normal person would, and spent a little time with a boss who wasn’t exactly a bully, but had an unpleasantly authoritarian management style. I’ve spent a long time wondering why, and I think it goes back to my not exactly abusive, but somewhat harsh upbringing. When I interviewed with my first boss, they just gave me a familiar, comfortable vibe that I think must have reminded me of my parents. Your family member should probably head to therapy.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, yep, yep.
        Adding I made excuses for them for their bad behavior. Having a bad day, or dog died or big boss is nasty.
        There’s a million excuses. I had to stop rationalizing it all away because the truth is that if *I* said or behaved that way I’d get called out for it.

    5. Maggie*

      Document everything. I had this problem with a boss, who insisted on giving me all criticism in person, and demanded that I bring all issues to them in person. I started sending follow-up emails after these meetings, just so I could have a documented timeline of the events. Something like “Just to confirm that we’re on the same page, you’d like me to start coming in at 8am every morning instead of 10 as I’ve previously been scheduled, starting immediately. Correct?”
      Or, like we saw with James Comey and Trump, write down notes of every interaction where you felt bullied, the time, context, as well as anyone else who can corroborate your story.
      Keep that CV and LinkedIn profile up to date too, it doesn’t hurt to keep your options open.

    6. Gnome*

      I’ve seen it happen a couple times. In one case, the person is so focused on the work, they don’t look at management and really probe that in interviews.

      In another, well, it’s a relative who can’t get along with anyone and is highly toxic and causes drama they have No IDEA they are causing… But if course nobody tries telling them about that more than once. For them, they will actually get feedback like “next time please use green ink” and take it as a personal affront.

      I’ve seen bosses really don’t like people who they view as a threat, so really competent people get targeted. Others will only target those who disagree with them (in some cases very mildly, like “I wonder if green ink would show up better”).

      I think to avoid it you have to try and learn about the manager beforehand if at all possible. Especially if you can speak to folks they used to manage. Also, it can be worthwhile to keep your head down the first few weeks and try and find out if there’s anything the boss is particular about, watch how they interact with others, etc. As much as possible early on.

      1. Gnome*

        With the relative of mine, I didn’t realize how bad it was until they snapped at me for asking the wrong question and I got vitriolic voicemail starting with a f-bomb and descending from there. That’s when the lightbulb clicked that all their “bully bosses” and coworkers were… Probably not that bad. I had really strong ideas about it before, but assumed I must be missing context somehow. Nope! Turns out Relative just can’t be anything other than perfect.

    7. Irish Teacher*

      I haven’t had that experience, but I can think of a number of possibilities.

      One is that it’s related to the specific field she’s in. There are roles that seem to attract particular personality types and there are also fields where management may not be supported or not be trained well and therefore people may be more likely to fall into bullying behaviours to get things done.

      It’s also possible she may be missing red flags and accepting jobs that others would be wary of, for examples jobs with a very high turnover of staff.

      Another possibility is if her job is in any way adjacent to or lower status/lower paid than her coworkers, for example if she’s a member of the cleaning staff in an office or a receptionist say for a medical centre. Bullies may pick on somebody in a role like that as they may feel those people are less likely to be listened to, that the other members of staff will support the person more “like them” and that a person on lower pay might have more to lose by speaking up.

      Another is…is your friend a member of any minority groups? Certain people like the neurodivergent, those with certain mental illnesses, people who are transgender, etc are more likely to be bullied for a whole number of reasons.

      I have my doubts about this one, but reading what ImInSpace wrote made me think another possibility is if your friend is considered to be “difficult,” for example, if she is somebody who stands up for her rights or who isn’t willing to go along with things like cutting corners.

      Of course, conversely, if she is very easy-going, some bullies might see her as an easy target (so yeah, there is no way of ensuring one avoids bullying).

      None of these may be the reason, but just some possibilities in case any resonates.

    8. Anon in IL*

      If she isn’t already, maybe suggest she read AAM regularly. Over time it can really help to understand workplace interactions, including bulllying.

    9. Blinded By the Gaslight*

      In my previous career, I was bullied by multiple people (supervisors, co-workers, mobbing) at multiple organizations in the same field over a 20-year period. It tanked my mental health, affected my physical health, and turned me into a person no one wanted to hang around because of my perpetual “drama” – which only further isolated me. Despite my best efforts, I internalized a lot of negative shit, and it changed my behavior and my impression of myself professionally and as a human being. I thought, maybe I really am just a shitty person and employee and I’ve deserved all of this . . .

      Then I changed careers, and I felt like freaking Dorothy stepping out of sepia destruction into Technicolor OZ. I have had two of the absolutely most wonderful managers and teams in a row, and I can’t even believe how different work life is when people are supportive, kind, professionals and when people actually like all the skills and qualities you bring to the table instead of being threatened. I’m still unlearning/unworking a lot of damage, but this has been hugely validating of my sanity, and proof that work really doesn’t have to be endless battles in Thunderdome.

      Having said that: Are there things I could have done differently in those environments or in my career? For sure! No one is perfect. But being bullied at work really changes you, especially if it goes on too long and/or it reoccurs across jobs. It’s abuse, and it’s really hard to end that cycle the longer it goes on. And all of this is harder if you already have a background of trauma. There are things I’m not proud of, but I also know I was doing my best to survive.

      How to break the cycle: Get therapy. Take a good, hard look at your work history and professional goals (and your life goals in general), and make some decisions about what you need to change. Develop new skills. Take care of yourself. Find healthy support. Read Ask A Manager and take Alison’s advice (seriously, this site helped me break my cycle). Leave abusive jobs sooner rather than later. Remember that nobody deserves abuse, period. And keep your chin up!

    10. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

      I have seen this play out a time or two and it is PAINFUL. I had a coworker who is about the sweetest person alive and also an absolute doormat. On the plus side, she always jumped in to help. On the minus side, she was jumping in to “help” when it really, really wasn’t necessary for her to do that. And yup, the bullies see that and it becomes a game, getting her to jump, watching her get flustered when it’s never high enough. *Paying for their lunch, repeatedly, and never having the guts to ask to be reimbursed.* I mean… I said something, repeatedly, and then I started to fear I was bullying her into standing up to the bullies! I was bullied as a kid and I am pretty much bully-proof as a result. Other people, it takes them the opposite way. But the bullied person has to be willing to stand up for themselves. Absent that, there’s no hope. My coworker could “see the good” in literally anyone and it is NOT a strength.

      1. BEC*

        “Seeing the good” is totally fine to do, but it HAS to be combined with wisdom when it comes to taking any action (or not taking action) about that person.

        I can look at the inner goodness in your soul all day, but no, you cannot borrow $50, and no you cannot drop your kids off at my house just this once, and no you may absolutely not move in till you get back on your feet.

        There are people I’d bend over backwards for and others I wouldn’t – it’s about my own boundaries.

    11. Monkey, Bear and Mouse*

      I know you didn’t remotely intend to victim blame, but I think this is dangerous territory – wondering if being bullied is somehow because of the character traits of the person getting bullied.
      The first time I was bullied as an adult (the only person on the team targeted), a colleague of mine vaguely speculated that it was something about *me* that attracted the bullying. I felt insulted. Years later, he and others all ended up resigning because they themselves were getting bullied so badly by the person! I am sorry he was bullied but I really hope he realised that there is no “type” who gets bullied.

      Anyone can be bullied.

      1. Blinded By the Gaslight*

        That same situation played out for me, too. A new co-worker started, we became fast work friends, my bully (a senior-level woman in a professional occupation associated with trustworthiness/kindness) started lying to her that I was bad-mouthing her when she wasn’t around, and she succeeded in splitting up the friendship. They then bullied me together and told everyone that *I* was the one with the problem, and everyone just kind of believed them. Until . . . my work friend disagreed with my bully on a project they were doing. Bully did a 180 and started doing all the same shit to my friend that she/they used to do to me. It was completely shocking for my friend, just total relationship whiplash. We watched that dynamic play out over and over with people and Bully at that organization.

        Bullies are AMAZING at protecting themselves from social damage, and deflecting blame onto victims.

      2. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

        Bullying can happen to nearly anyone.
        But I think the aim was to understand when someone has an ongoing pattern of being bullied over several jobs, relationships, family, etc.

        1. pancakes*

          Yes. And as people have been saying, there’s much more to those patterns than the target’s character. Their character seems beside the point, if anything. The people here who’ve talked about “fawning,” for example – that’s not something a victim of bullying does because it’s their character; it’s something that can become a habit and/or defensive mechanism on account of the experiences they’ve endured. A conditioned response. If I understand correctly, it’s a response people who’ve had to become accustomed to trauma will often have to being presented with what appears to be more of the same. I haven’t done the reading on this or had the personal experiences others in the thread have, fwiw, but that makes a lot of sense to me as an idea.

      3. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

        You are right on it can happen to anyone, and you are right on the obnoxiousness of speculating that it must mean the victim is weak or “asking for it” somehow. But there are people who get far, far more than their fair share of bullying in this life, and what I’ve seen is a failure to develop any kind of workable strategy to deal with it (running away counts as a workable strategy in my book). IF that’s the case, the person getting repeatedly bullied needs a red-flag seminar, a boundary kit, and some way to change their habitual responses or it will keep happening.

      4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Anyone can be bullied because everyone has insecurities and fears and that’s what a bully is looking for, and uses as a weapon against a person; so it isn’t a victims fault for being human and they aren’t a particular type, but people have different kinds of fears and different levels of insecurities that can give a bully more of an opening in different contexts.

        For example, for someone who is very afraid of conflict, they will do anything to avoid conflict, and a bully will use that fear to force them into doing favors or giving them money for instance. This is probably what happens to survivors of childhood trauma — they fear a repeat so much, that it puts them in a position of being re-traumatized if there is a bully present. But for someone who doesn’t really fear conflict, they are more likely to get passed by the bully — not always, but usually. Just like in the wild, the predator goes after the most vulnerable first because it’s easy, but will take any victim they can.

      5. RagingADHD*

        Anyone can catch the flu. Nearly everyone has it at some point in their life, and most people have had it more than once.

        If someone is constantly sick over and over again, it’s likely their immune system needs to be checked.

      6. Despachito*

        You are right that this is a dangerous territory – bullying happened very much to me when I was a kid, and although I would be offended even now if someone told me that it was “my fault”, I often wondered what it was that was causing it happened to me repeatedly with different people. (I haven’t found out completely yet).

        I am very glad OP has opened the question here and that there are frank responses. Because sometimes I find that people do not want to get into discussing what might be attracting bullies to this one person because of fear of victim blaming, but I think there is a very subtle difference between “if it’s happening to you repeatedly it’s your fault” (which is horrible) and “if it’s happening to you repeatedly, it definitely ISN’t you fault but possibly there is a pattern in something you are doing and it might help if you understood it better”.

        I am grateful to the commenters that they are able to distinguish this subtle difference, and I hope to find some answers for myself in it.

    12. Anon when talking about a friend*

      I know someone like this as well and in her case, I think it’s a combination of things, similar to what other commenters have said.

      In graduate school, she worked for a couple of different mentors, both of who were bullies. I think in both cases, there was some desperation (because finding mentors to work with can be cutthroat and she was struggling a bit in finding one) and some overlooking of red flags. I’m not totally sure if the overlooking was naivety or deliberate because of the desperation, but my guess is a combination of both. Once out in the working world, she’s worked for bully boss after bully boss. And even the couple who haven’t been bullies have taken advantage of her, made her work unreasonably, and not been supportive. Again, I think red flags were overlooked, often now because of an interest in the work and being used to being overworked and taken advantage of. After a long enough time, that ends up seeming normal. She’s also someone who is willing to speak up for her work and advocate for it, but won’t speak up much for herself. When she describes work situations that have happened and we respond aghastly, she never seems to be willing to put her foot down. She’s always willing to give it a little longer, work a little harder, put up with a little more before it’s bad enough to do something about. But then it ends up a frog-in-boiling-water situation.

      I think the biggest factors for her are low self worth, fear of returning to poverty, and personal value being tied up in her work identity. Those things all make it hard to walk away from a bully. And I do think she ends up looking for jobs with bosses of certain personality types. She certainly doesn’t want to be bullied and doesn’t cause it, but I think feels more comfortable in positions where bosses exhibit certain personality traits. Unfortunately, those personality traits often tend to be accompanied by bullying ones.

      I continue to be a sounding board for her and to vocally support her and criticize the things the bully bosses do. And I make sure to continue to point out that those things are not standard workplace norms and that she deserves better than that. But I’ve also come to accept that she is responsible for the decisions she makes regarding where she works and how long (she’s reached a financial position where she has options), especially after recognizing she’s in a bad situation. The times she’s gone to therapy, it’s helped a lot, so I continue to advocate for that as well.

    13. An Australian In London*

      Tying together multiple comments in this thread:

      It is hard to discuss this without straying into victim-blaming… but yes, there is (sensitive, appropriate) research in this area, which is usually known as “repeat victimisation”.

      Predators test the waters in ways that will tell them if someone holds boundaries or not. This works because the strategies that help survivors survive often involve or even require boundary erosion and can become internalised or habits even when out of the situations they were needed in. Many predators can and do test for these in ways that do not rise to the level of violating social norms and are socially and professionally safe for them to do so. (“Blood in the water” theory.) It need not even be the predator themselves who does this; they may instead be in a position to observe how a potential victim does or does not hold a boundary violation from a third party who is not themselves a predator, just misbehaving.

      The good news is that the tables can be turned: it is possible to provoke revealing responses from predators and badly behaved people with behaviours that also do not violate social norms. A sad example: women in my social circle who date men report deliberately rejecting his first date suggestion of venue or cuisine specifically to see how he handles it. I think the idea is that he is not invested at this point and has little to lose in responding revealingly – and will often “helpfully” show red flags.

      1. Anele*

        Thank you so much for this—I’ve been repeatedly bullied at work, and it did a number on my self esteem. Your comments about testing boundaries is a really good one. After years of therapy and finally finding a healthy work environment, I’ve found that the best way to shut workplace bullies down is to set up boundaries and stick to them. There’s a way to be assertive and confident without being hostile, and shutting bulling behavior down immediately and showing that you don’t tolerate that kind of behavior is imperative.

        I think that people who project confidence and establish these boundaries are much less likely to be bullied, because bullies are often deeply insecure themselves. An insecure bully is going to pick a target they feel superior to, which will often be an insecure person, and/or a person belonging to marginalized communities.

        This whole conversation is enormously important, and I wish that I had known of this when starting out my career! When I was first bullied, I responded with intense people pleasing, thinking that the reason I was being bullied was because I was doing something that angered them. I thought that if I did everything my bullies said they wanted, that if I could make them like me, the abuse would stop. It only got worse.

        1. An Australian In London*

          I’ve been thinking about this all weekend because I couldn’t quite put my finger on why I felt I was slightly off message with my comment.

          I think there is a large overlap between bullies and predators but I think they are not the same:

          I think bullies are afraid of the people who stand up to them. They are not usually strong people themselves, and bullying is their coping strategy for feeling small or out of control.

          I think predators are afraid of the consequences should they continue with someone who’s shown they won’t take it. Those are the people who are threats to them (will make a scene; will report them; will gather evidence), and they will go elsewhere to find an easier victim.

          I don’t know if I’m right about this distinction, or if it changes anything in this thread. I realised that I was talking about predators and the question was about bullies, so it may have been a derail.

    14. Lifelong student*

      I will get slammed for this- but my SIL has been fired from multiple jobs and claims to have been harassed or bullied at all of them. She says she was treated the same way by her mother. She has never had a romantic relationship. She makes accusations against her siblings for things that happened years ago. She always has medical complaints – most of which are things that happen to many people but are tragedies to her that demand special treatment. Is there a common denominator? In my opinion, she wallows in being a victim! Everyone else is wrong all the time- she is perfect- or if not should be catered to because of……..

      1. Despachito*

        I know (virtually) a person like this, too.

        She constantly (and I mean over a decade) complains about:

        – her neighbours
        – her husband
        – her mother
        – her coworkers
        – the successive pretendants of her daughter
        – the families of those pretendants
        – her daughter (which is the saddest).

        These all are mean to her, and there is virtually no normal person around her. And you know beforehand that if her daughter breaks with her fiancé and finds a new one that this one would be horrible, too. And if she changes jobs, her coworkers will be awful as well. (Even before the new fiancé appears)

        In this case, the problem is definitely her, and she is very successfully playing the victim. It is interesting to observe how people on the forum repeatedly confirm for her that her husband/mother/coworkers etc. are awful, and I just cannot get how they can NOT see (after, say, 15+ years of THE SAME whining) that the problem is her. And if someone makes the mistake of pointing out to her, she becomes very passive-aggressively combative.

        I reckon that this is rather an exception and do not want to invalidate the TRUE victims, but I wanted to point out this is also one of the possibilities.

    15. Free Meerkats*

      I’m not victim blaming, but there are people who, for some reason, go through life as a victim. I have a sister like that; she’s been robbed on the street, bullied from grade school on, all her relationships have been at least marginally abusive, if there’s someone accosting people on the street, it will be her; the only constant is her. She’s one of 6 kids who were raised together and she’s the only one like this.

      I’ve tried to figure out why, with her and someone else I know like that and I haven’t been able to figure it out. I honestly wish I had some useful advice.

      1. Anele*

        Your sister should really go to therapy, if she isn’t already. I think bullies/abusers can pick out insecurities really easily, so building confidence is very important. In therapy, I’ve worked a whole lot on my own self esteem. When my self esteem was low, I would think about myself poorly and accept horrible treatment from bosses because I thought I was doing something to deserve it. As my self esteem improves, I’ve been treating myself better and I’ve been demanding better treatment from other people too.

      2. pancakes*

        This doesn’t seem likely to be a mental health issue (or multiple issues) to you? I don’t know how to understand why not. There’s no use in online strangers trying to guess at what specifically might be the issue, but from what you’ve said it seems highly probable there’s at least one.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Lower paying jobs seem to attract bully bosses. But often the bully boss is only making $2 per hour more than the subordinate. The push for professional bosses is just not there. If they have a pulse then they can manage- company criteria.

      While I understand that coaching people in how to help themselves can be seen as victim blaming, the reality is we cannot eliminate bully bosses. It’s left of to each of us to take care of our own selves. Just as we teach non-swimmers to swim, we can also teach people how to set boundaries and stand up for themselves. It’s not reasonable to assume that an outsider is going to protect an employee from their bully boss.

      I have had a few really bad bosses. I broke things down to see what I could do differently.

      1) Know for a fact what is reasonable for the position. I had a boss tell me to climb 30′ up to change a light bulb. This boss was a joker. I never saw anyone else have to do that. Putting these two things together I decided I would not be doing the climb and most likely he was joking. I did not climb up there and there was no fallout for my refusal to do it.
      So that is not bullying. I was pretty naïve/young and my go-to response was to feel bullied but that was not what was happening here. This was his way of joking with people. Everyone heard stuff like this. Changing a 30′ high light bulb was not part of my position in the company.

      2) Learn and use the rule of three. If you see/hear something three times you have a pattern and it okay to act on that pattern. But some things you only need to see once. There person who locked me in a walk-in freezer got an earful the first time he did that. Separately, I had a boss tell me, “Why did you do X” She told me to. “I never said that.” Yeah, she said do X. This happened a couple times and I started repeating back to her “Okay you want me to do X, right?” The next day when she called me on it, I just shook my head, “This is why I asked you to confirm. I said. “So you want me to do X” and you said yes do X .” She stopped doing this to me, but she kept on doing it to others. Good use of the rule of three.

      3) I had to learn to pick better workplaces and I had to learn to get out sooner. I had to learn that staying for months or years hoping for improvement was futile. It was okay to believe what I saw happening in front of me and change my plans accordingly. Someone mentioned to tell her to read here daily. Not only is it interesting to read, but she will learn to put into words the problems she is seeing. Once identified and articulated, it becomes much easier to set and maintain boundaries.

      4) Read boundaries books. It’s not our fault if we weren’t taught boundaries as kids. But as adults we CAN teach ourselves about boundaries.

      5) Bullies have to be told to stop. They do not use the same rule book that quiet, gentle people use. It’s okay to meet people on the level they are at. Bob slams into me every day in the hallway. It’s fine to say, “Bob, you slam into me every day in the hallway. STOP IT.” You can say this and still be a kind and quality person.

      2)

      1. Nicosloanica*

        Lower paying jobs seem to attract bully bosses. – this is very real. The WORST bosses I ever had were when I was working retail, coffee shops, restaurants. I was younger and less able to navigate tricky situations so I’m sure that’s part of it but also – no! These were relatively low-paid people themselves and they had messy lives for a variety of poverty-adjacent reasons and they absolutely took it out on staff. They weren’t really held to a higher standard as few people take the restaurant manager to task for abusing the wait staff, particularly when I new wait staff is cheap but a semi-reliable manager willing to work full time for what, 45K? Not even? is hard to find. They also didn’t have much training or support.

        1. Irish Teacher*

          I think one reason for this is that these people are often in positions where they are held responsible for what happens without being given much authority. The “bully boss” I had was in that middle ground where she was more of a team lead than a real manager and while there was no truth to this, she FELT that staff were not respecting her the way they did the managers, possibly because she didn’t have power to fire and that her only way to get people to do their jobs and respect her was basically, to be a bully. Then BECAUSE she behaved like there, there was far more absenteeism when she was in charge than when either of the managers was, which she further used to convince herself people were taking advantage of her because she wasn’t a full manager and therefore she had to be even more “strict” in order to “get respect.” The fact that people weren’t showing up, not because they thought “she can’t do anything anyway,” but because they thought “I’m going to get bullied if I do” didn’t occur to her nor did the fact that the reason the manager wasn’t taking much notice of her complaints wasn’t that “he didn’t respect her”. It was because she was complaining people for ridiculous things.

          This was also in a company where there was a lot of pressure from on high and while the manager was pretty laid back and willing to shrug it off (hearing him on the phone to head office could be hilarious. “Yes, district manager. Of course, district manager. We’ll do that right away, district manager.” *hangs up” “For flip’s sake, it’s closing time. We are not doing that now. It can wait until tomorrow.”) and the deputy manager was the most confident person imaginable and would straight up tell them “if you want us to do that, you need to pay for more staff. My staff is overworked and I am not asking that of them,” the “bully boss” took it more seriously and worried it would reflect on her if she didn’t make us do everything perfectly.

          I think the lack of training and support is absolutely a factor. As a teacher, I know virtually all young, newly qualified teachers start off thinking the students should be “afraid” of them and that they need to be “strict.” The idea that discipline is more than having people afraid of the consequences you can impose and that it is possible to be respected without being feared is something people have to learn. (I am not saying newly qualified teachers are bullies, most are not, but most do worry about “should I have made a joke there, does that make me seem too easy-going?” or “was I in some way ‘cheating’ by removing a flashpoint? I shouldn’t HAVE to do that. They should RESPECT me and just not misbehave even if I leave them in situations where misbehaviour is likely.” It takes experience to realise that tailoring classes so students are engaged and DON’T want to misbehave is good discipline and not “pandering” or “an admission of failure.”

          And that is with kids and with a level of authority that bosses aren’t always given.

          Also the bosses in lower paid jobs are often in jobs they don’t want to be in. Some are unhappy in those roles (the bully boss I mentioned would regularly talk about how she was going to leave and complain about he company) and that probably plays a part too,

  8. Jascha*

    I’m applying hard for jobs and have come up against an issue: there are two open positions in the same organization, either of which I’d be competitive for. Both are fully remote. Of course, I can only pick one. However, there are complicating factors:

    Job 1 is a perfect fit for me; it needs every skill I possess, I have every “nice-to-have,” and I have experience in everything it requires. I’m happy with the salary range. I’m an expert in the field. However: the job duties include occasional attendance at in-person events, which I am currently unable to do. (I’m capable and have done the event duties in the past, but medical conditions prevent me from doing so until COVID-19 is… not what it is now. I can, of course, still attend and even run virtual events.)

    Job 2 is a good fit, but not perfect. I have all of the required skills, but there are one or two areas of experience I lack (mostly regarding budget and operations management). I could learn these, but they’re not my main areas of interest, so the job is less ideal. However, there is no event attendance required.

    I’d like to go for Job 1, but am struggling with the event duties. I don’t think they’d be a huge part of the job, but I don’t know when I’ll be able to do them again for legitimate medical reasons. Should I apply even knowing that those are indefinitely off the table? Should I email them ahead of time to ask (or is this too forward/awkward)? If I apply, at what point in the process should I bring up my event limitations? Or should I just aim for Job 2 to avoid the event issue, which is still pretty good even though I’m less perfect for it and it’s less ideal for me?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Who says you have to pick one at this stage? You’re allowed to apply for both. If they have a central tracking system they will notice and might ask which you prefer, but they’re not going to be turned off by you applying to two similar jobs.

      1. ecnaseener*

        I should finish my thought before hitting post, lol: if you get interviews for one or both, you can ask about your concerns then.

        I’d bring up the event thing in the phone screen or first interview, see if it’s truly a requirement or if they can make a medical accommodation.

        1. Jascha*

          Thanks! Everyone seems to agree on this. It’s not a large organization and they would definitely know I had applied to two different positions – but, for some reason, I perceived this as a “Do Not Do,” whereas others seem to disagree. Perhaps my idea of what’s acceptable in the job hunt is skewed! (It has been more than five, but less than ten years since my last job hunt.)

          1. Irish Teacher*

            Perhaps it’s different in education, but I have applied for two separate jobs in the same school in the same envelope (back in the days when you applied by post for most jobs). I teach English and History, so if a school were looking for a full-time English teacher and a full-time History teacher, I would obviously apply for both positions.

            Of course I don’t know the norms of your field, but I don’t see why it would be a problem.

      2. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        When in was searching this past spring I applied for two jobs at the same company. One I applied to first and then 3 weeks later I saw an opening for one that was a better fit.

        I ended up interviewing for both. It was a very large company and the jobs were in different divisions. I don’t think even the recruiters (there was a differ one for each position) knew I applied to both. Through interviewing I was able to pick which one I preferred. However I got neither of them, but that had nothing to do with applying for both.

        Now I could see an issue of OP was applying for a lot of roles that weren’t similar to each other, but two roles they are a good fit for wouldn’t be unheard of.

        1. Jascha*

          Thanks! They would definitely know I had applied to two different positions (it’s not large enough to have multiple recruiting teams) – but, for some reason, I perceived this as a “Do Not Do,” whereas others seem to disagree. The roles are definitely not identical, but have a number of similarities.

          Follow-up question: how different should I make my CV and cover letter to account for the two different positions? On the one hand, I know I need to personalize them to each application. But on the other hand, I don’t want it to look like I’m just making my documents say what they want to hear for each one (because I know they’ll be the same recruiting team)…

          1. Kez*

            I think you might be overthinking it on the “just making my documents say what they want to hear” front. That’s the point of a cover letter – indicate a baseline of enthusiasm and then show that you can communicate clearly the skills you have which match up with the job.

            You don’t need to reinvent the wheel, of course, but personalizing the cover letter to indicate what excites and interests you in each position, and maybe highlighting your skills in a way which would be suited to this particular job, is all very standard stuff. Especially since the hiring managers themselves will only be looking at the cover letter for their posting, I don’t think you need to worry about them taking notes on your originality/uniqueness from the other letter.

            1. Jascha*

              Really appreciate all the advice! I’ll do some hard work on the cover letters and send in both applications this weekend.

    2. Colette*

      Why can’t you apply for both? If you get an interview for Job 1, you can ask about event attendance.

      1. Jascha*

        I was worried that, because it will be the same recruiters (organization too small to have multiple recruitment teams), they’d see that I’d applied for both and perceive it as my just trying to apply for anything I can get. However, people seem to agree that it’s okay for me to apply to two different, but related roles in the same company. I thought it would be frowned upon, but I’m open to being wrong (and kind of glad to be)!

    3. Littorally*

      Why not apply for both? If they both offer you the job, then at that point you’d of course have to pick one, but I don’t know of any business that would require you to apply for only one job (at a time?).

      If you get to the interview stage with Job 1, that’s a great time to ask about in-person attendance and covid policy.

      1. Jascha*

        I was worried that, because it will be the same recruiters (organization too small to have multiple recruitment teams), they’d see that I’d applied for both and perceive it as my just trying to apply for anything I can get. However, everyone seems to be on the same page that it’s okay to apply for both and won’t look like I’m just shotgunning applications.

    4. Doctors Whom*

      First of all, why do you think you can only pick one? That’s not how it works:) You can apply for multiple positions in the same organization, and since both are of interest, you absolutely should.

      Talk to the recruiter about it. If it’s something the hiring manager can wiggle on, they may do so for the right candidate. If you are an expert in the field with a great track record, maybe they could work with you on strategies for mentoring other people into the on-ground aspect of said events, for example. You don’t have to disclose your specific conditions, but I think it’s fair to say “this part of the responsibilities I could not accommodate in the near term for medical reasons, do you have flexibility to allow it to be remote until Covid xyz?”

      You won’t know if you don’t ask. If you don’t ask and you get through the process and they can’t wiggle on it, then you’ve taken up a lot of your time that you could have focused on other parts of your search. If you don’t ask and you don’t go through the process and you find out later that they could have made it work, you’d be kicking yourself.

      Good luck with your search.

      1. Jascha*

        Thanks so much! I was assuming that, because the same recruiters will see both applications (too small an organization to have multiple teams), they might think I was just applying for absolutely anything, which is not the case. I didn’t want that to look bad and negatively impact my chances.

        I’ve asked this upthread but how different would you recommend I make my CV and cover letter to account for the two different positions? On the one hand, I know I need to personalize them to each application. But on the other hand, I don’t want it to look like I’m just making my documents say what they want to hear for each one…

        1. Doctors Whom*

          I work in an organization that size and I see this on the regular. Not a problem. It would be a problem if you applied for a llama keeping job, a bee painting job, and a job counting sheets of paper. But it sounds like you are replying for llama management and llama operations management jobs. Much closer together – it sounds like it should be apparent from your resume that you have strengths & experience applicable to both positions.

          My advice in this case is write the resume that shows you are a stellar contender for Job 1 and use for both. Write separate cover letters for the two positions – that way you are explaining your interest tailored to both.

          If the place is that small, the recruiter is likely to talk to you about both. What are your overall interests, what attracts you about both positions.

          Where I work if you applied only to Job 1, say, and if they said “oh Jascha can’t do onsite events so we ahve to pass” either the recruiter or hiring manager would wind up saying “Jascha does seem like a potential fit for the role on Thumbelina’s team” and call Thumbelina anyway. (But not all places would go that extra mile.)

    5. Aspiring*

      Apply for Job 1, and address your reasonable accommodations at some natural point during the interview process. It might be that there’s ways that some or all of the the in-person stuff could be handled by a deputy, with you being in the background. Or that you could build the event with precautions that would keep you — and everyone else — safer to the point of do-ability.

      1. Jascha*

        Thanks for the advice! Yes; if applying for Job 1, I planned to highlight my experience in virtual events (attending and running) and in delegating in-person attendance (I manage a small team to whom I’ve delegated my current event duties, which is a win-win, because they have all told me they consider the travel opportunities a huge perk). Whether I go for one or both, I’ll definitely do that at the same time as explaining why I’m not able to do in-person events yet.

  9. AITA?*

    Short version: I (manager) made a desired schedule modification for myself that I was unable to make for Brain (non-manager) because of the need for managerial coverage. Should I have made a non-desirable modification for myself because if Brian is unhappy with his schedule, it’s not fair that I am now happy with mine?

    Long version: I manage one location of a chain of teapot stores. When we expanded hours a year ago, we were short staffed and couldn’t cover all the hours (expansion of hours was decided by corporate, not me). Across the chain, everyone works later hours one evening a week (to cover our evening hours), and two evenings a week if necessary. Instead of mandating who would work two evenings versus one, I asked for volunteers. Brian (not a manager) is one of the people who volunteered. I also elected to work two evenings a week, because I figure as the manager it’s my job to take the bummer shifts. In addition to our other evening, Brian and I have been working together on Tuesday evenings.

    Over the past year, we have both found that we have non-work conflicts on Tuesdays, and would like to go down to just one (non-Tuesday) evening a week once staffing allows. Recently, corporate announced they would be hiring assistant managers for all the locations that didn’t have one. Every store is supposed to have a manager on duty at all times, but because our store is so small, we don’t have as many managers as the other stores (others have 4-6) so that’s not really possible. However, I do need to spread out the management coverage as much as possible. The new assistant manager, Elissa, was just hired. In order to spread out the management coverage, I scheduled Elissa for Tuesday evenings, and I will not work that evening any more (I’ll still work one other evening a week). I explained to Brian why Elissa would be taking my Tuesday evening, not his, and encouraged him to ask if anyone else would be willing to trade evenings with him. So far (he emailed everyone a little less than a week ago asking), one person has given him a “let me think about it.” Yesterday he got all emotional about how he “doesn’t know what he’s going to do, no one wants to help him out and he’s been complaining about this shift for at least 6 months.”

    So my question is: should I have asked Elissa to work my other evening, so that Brian and I would continue being unhappy on our Tuesday evenings together?

    1. Gracely*

      Is there a reason why you can’t alternate Tuesdays? That way you both get a bit of a break from those Tuesdays?

      1. AITA?*

        I thought about that. Elissa and I could alternate Tuesdays, but it doesn’t work long-term for Brian and I to be on a Tuesday rotation because then every other week there’s no manager on Tuesday mornings – and part of the goal of having the assistant manager is to spread out managerial coverage as much as possible. Basically, Elissa and I are interchangeable for coverage purposes, but Brian and I are not.
        I have told Brian I’ll be happy to cover his Tuesday evenings on occasion when I don’t have other conflicts, because if Elissa and I are occasionally on the same night that’s not a big deal – it just doesn’t make good sense long-term.

    2. Colette*

      No.

      Having said that, if Tuesdays specifically are an issue for Brian, it might make sense to ask if someone else can switch with him, if they can’t just take the shift.

      Or make sure the next person you hire works 2 evenings, and Brian gets to drop down to one.

      1. AITA?*

        Definitely planning to have the next person I hire (timeline TBD) take Brian’s Tuesday (because the next person won’t be a manager) if we don’t have it resolved before then!

    3. Paris Geller*

      I don’t think you should have asked Elissa to work your other evening instead of Tuesday, but why did you make Brian ask if anyone would be willing to trade with him? You’re the manager, schedules are your responsibility. He volunteered to work another evening when it was necessary, but now he has conflicts with Tuesday evenings. It sounds like he’s been a team player by taking on this extra evening for awhile (if I’m reading this correctly, every employee worked one evening a week, but due to scheduling needs, some had to work two. Brian volunteered at the time to work two). It’s someone else’s turn, and as a manager, I would say that scheduling is your responsibility to assign another employee to a second evening.

      1. Abbott*

        I agree with this – There’s a power dynamic here that I think needs to be acknowledged. You have options and you used them for yourself. Brian’s only option is to rely on his colleagues (who are under no obligation to help them) or bring the issue to you (which you haven’t helped him with)

        1. AITA?*

          Thank you both! Abbott, “You have options and you used them for yourself” – that’s the wording I haven’t been able to find about why I felt weird about the decision I made.
          Our culture here has tended to be very “we [non-managers] help each other out without interference from above,” but now I’m seeing where that falls short and a good example of a time where I need to step in. Thanks for pointing this out to me.

          1. Abbott*

            I totally get that… I’ve worked at places where there’s this theme of collaboration and kumbaya spirit that suddenly disappears when there’s an issue or an annoying project that no one wants to handle… which then gets handed to the person with the lowest tolerance for conflict or the highest need for praise. It’s easy to believe that everyone is stepping up for everyone else (and a lovely thing if it happens), but it so rarely happens the way it should that it shouldn’t be assumed the philosophy is the reality.

            Good luck to you and Brian and Elissa!!

        2. voyager1*

          I agree with Abbot. I had a manager who would do this same thing when it came to coverage. Would ask for volunteers or would draw names. We were M-F 8-5 hours non retail with one Sunday a month. we had coverage over Saturdays that one team member would do, she worked Tu-Sat. One of us would have work her shift when she was on vacation. We had one team member would never volunteer. It got to the point where I reported my manager to her boss about the disparity. The manager never offered to cover any of the Saturdays, her excuse was she was management and didn’t know what we did. Everyone saw through that line of foolishness.

      2. DogTrainer*

        I completely agree with this. This is exactly what I was thinking – why is Brian emailing other people to take this shift that he’s kindly taken? That’s definitely the manager’s job.

        1. AITA?*

          There’s this weird culture/lack-of-clarity in our chain about whether staff are supposed to get their own coverage or managers are supposed to find the coverage when people can’t or don’t want the shifts they originally accepted. Absolutely no clear answer; it depends on which HR person you talked to when. I’m on a management team that’s trying to change that because it causes a lot of problems, like this. I’m definitely hearing that – unless there’s some policy or procedure change that says I can’t – I should step in here, and I appreciate that perspective!

          1. Kay*

            I would argue that regardless of policy – it is a management function to handle scheduling. Any policy that places the onus to find coverage on the individual employee is simply a way of circumventing a responsibility which should fall on management, period – and is therefore a pretty shitty policy poised to invite resentment. A good manager should realize this, and act accordingly.

            This is playing out as expected with your employee, but the good news is that it sounds like if you act quickly, it isn’t too late to remedy it.

            1. AITA?*

              So many of the comments here today have been about how I shouldn’t have asked Brian to find his own coverage. I’m surprised because this is so different from what I’m used to! Every teapot store chain I’ve ever worked in, it’s been standard to arrange your own schedule swaps, the idea being “This is the schedule you agreed to; it would be unfair of management to require someone to work a schedule that did not agree to because your needs changed.” And I think that’s where I’m getting stuck here. I don’t want to require Brian to keep working a schedule he doesn’t want, but neither do I want to require anyone else to work a schedule they don’t want. I realize the solution I’ve settled on is that means Brian has to work a schedule he doesn’t want while no one else does (or at least not one they’ve made me aware they don’t want). I checked in with another store manager earlier for a gut-check here, and they told me that they would be handling it the same way: ultimately, if no one else wanted the other shift, Brian would still be working Tuesdays because that’s the schedule he agreed to. I’m not saying we are right, just putting it there for perspective on the company culture that influenced my decision-making.
              I see your argument – just didn’t occur to me to see it that way because of the way we’ve been used to doing things in these kinds of stores.

              1. Paris Geller*

                That is a very standard method of operating for many retail stores. Doesn’t mean it’s a GOOD way to operate.

                I checked in with another store manager earlier for a gut-check here, and they told me that they would be handling it the same way: ultimately, if no one else wanted the other shift, Brian would still be working Tuesdays because that’s the schedule he agreed to. I’m not saying we are right, just putting it there for perspective on the company culture that influenced my decision-making.
                That is a very good way to make employees leave, by the way. I definitely would. Brian stepped up to help and now that the schedule no longer works for him, he’s being punished because he agreed to it in the past.

                1. Been There*

                  I left a retail store once because of this exact position. I had class and they wouldn’t accommodate my new schedule. So I found a new store that would.

                2. AITA?*

                  This makes sense, but from the perspective of the other employees, would you not also leave if you were told “Brian agreed to work Tuesdays, now he doesn’t want to and so you have to”? I feel like every manager I’ve ever hated on the internet I’ve hated because they told someone “I’m changing your schedule; you have to work this now.”

                  Obviously the real problem is we don’t have enough staff. I’m using all the capital I can, when I can, to try to get more, but ultimately that has to be approved by corporate; I can’t hire on my own.

                3. Abbott*

                  I think the difference here is that you’re not telling one person that they have to pick up Brian’s Tuesday. You’re telling your team they may need to pick up a Tuesday on occasion. If your entire team could potentially rebel because they’re being asked – with notice – to pick up an occasional Tuesday, there’s a holistic problem with the team.

                4. AITA?*

                  I can’t nest further but @Abbott – People are definitely willing to cover the occasional Tuesday. But Brian does want/need someone to take his place as “person scheduled on Tuesdays,” and that’s where I feel like saying, “Jolene, Brian can’t work Tuesday anymore, so you need to” is just as bad as saying “Sorry, Brian, but you agreed to work Tuesdays.” Maybe worse because Jolene never said she was okay working Tuesdays?

              2. This makes no sense*

                Wait…so the schedule you agreed to when you took the job is your schedule in perpetuity? If I am free on Wednesdays the day I start with the company, but then my school/childcare/other job/whatever schedule changes three years later, too bad for me?

                Surely you have to have a protocol in place for when availability changes, otherwise your employees have no choice but to quit working for you if their availability shifts over time, and you end up losing coverage on all their shifts, not just one.

              3. Casper Lives*

                “This is the schedule you agreed to; it would be unfair of management to require someone to work a schedule that did not agree to because your needs changed.”

                Then why did you change YOUR schedule? Changing your schedule, but refusing to change Brian’s, reads to the employees that there are different rules for managers than employees. Which I’ve found to be true in retail AND is a big reason retail is understaffed.

    4. Two Dog Night*

      Would Brian be willing to work two non-Tuesday evenings (at least for a while) if someone else would work his Tuesday evening shift? Maybe one of the other workers would be more willing to switch if you talked to them instead of having Brian ask. I think you’re NTA, but I think Brian deserves some help with this.

    5. Eagle*

      I assume your employees filled out their availability. Look at it and see if you can permanently switch someone else to Tuesday and Brian to their day. If people are unwavering on working Tuesday, then put it to the group that Brian is no longer able to work Tuesday nights and you will be scheduling each employee a Tuesday night shift in order to have coverage that night. Now everyone is equally unhappy.

      1. AITA?*

        That makes sense, because I do think what will happen (assuming it doesn’t work out with the person who’s considering a switch) is that everyone will say they’re not available Tuesday.

    6. CatCat*

      I think Brian has learned an important lesson on what volunteering to work the extra evening and being a team player gets him. I would be surprised if he stays much longer. He’s told you he’s pissed about it.

      Why did you put it on him to find someone else to cover Tuesday evening? You’re the manager. Why aren’t you bringing the scheduling up with other employees? Brian’s just now stuck because he stepped up when there was a need? Why is no one else being required to cover Tuesdays?

      At any rate, what’s the plan when Brian leaves? I would be working on that plan.

      1. AITA?*

        I think your last question was rhetorical, but I know Brian is wildly burned out on selling teapots. He has been since long before I arrived as manager. I think he would be much happier in another job, or perhaps another part of the company. We spend a lot of time talking about what kinds of work he might prefer and identifying duties and training that would cultivate skills and experience in those areas. I’m told by other store managers (and at one point, wildly inappropriately imo, by the head of HR) that prior to my arrival Brian had developed a reputation for negative attitudes and unreliability that meant no one in the chain would ever hire him for promotion. I don’t know how true that is, but I’ve been trying to change that if it is true. He has demonstrated and self-identified a big change and awareness of what kinds of experiences lead to it (intentionally vague here for anonymity) and I’m intentional about sharing about his great work with other managers, particularly ones I know view him in a negative light. He’s been able to talk on some projects with colleagues from other stores that get him visibility and networking around the chain.
        So, I think your question assumed that I take it for granted Brian will stay forever – I never take that for granted because of course everyone will leave, but with Brian in particular I actively hope he will leave because I think he would be much, much happier somewhere else.

        1. CatCat*

          That’s all great. So what are you going to do to cover Tuesdays when he leaves? Plan for that now. Heck, implement it now. You’ll be all set for when he makes the exit you’re hoping he’ll make. And he won’t continue to be ticked off that he’s saddled with all Tuesdays.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          “I’m told by other store managers (and at one point, wildly inappropriately imo, by the head of HR) …”

          Uh. no. That was really good that HR told you. It gave you a chance to make positive change. And it also let you know that no one would think you were incompetent if you started having problems with him.

          Going the opposite way, if HR did not tell you that would be setting you up to fail. Picture yourself going to HR to say you have a problem finally after many months of having a problem, and HR says, “Oh we knew that all along. We just didn’t bother to tell you.”

          I think your sentence here deserves some more consideration/contemplation.

      2. Casper Lives*

        This happens at every retail store I know about. Don’t volunteer for extra or it’ll be expected of you. Don’t go above and beyond or it’ll become the base expectation for your job performance. Brian learned a valuable lesson: his management will get themselves sorted, not do anything for the workers, and expect him to do part of management’s job with no extra pay and no authority to spread shifts.

        I hope Brian leaves for a higher-paying position with enough staff for all hours. Then the manager will be forced to do her job,

        1. AITA?*

          Every teapot store chain I’ve ever worked in, it’s been standard to arrange your own schedule swaps, the idea being “This is the schedule you agreed to; it would be unfair of management to require someone to work a schedule that did not agree to because your needs changed.” I checked in with another store manager earlier for a gut-check here, and they told me that they would be handling it the same way: ultimately, if no one else wanted the other shift, Brian would still be working Tuesdays because that’s the schedule he agreed to. I’m not saying we are right, just putting it there for perspective on the company culture and industry standard that influenced my decision-making.
          It never occurred to me that people finding their own swaps is technically asking them to do management’s job, and I appreciate you bringing up that perspective. I really thought it was standard practice at most customer-service jobs (though now that I think about it, it’s only in teapot stores that I’ve encountered this being normal, so clearly my calibration is off).
          I also hope Brian gets a higher-paying position somewhere fully staffed, with a schedule he likes, and I hope corporate gives me the go-ahead to hire the staff I need to cover all the night shifts equitably.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Soooo… they have one opportunity to tell the company what days/hours they want and that is it for the duration of their stay there? Nothing can change, ever?

            I keep seeing where you wrote this is “what they agreed to”. When? When they were hired 5 years ago? People change and needs change. Look at it this way, you took your own self off of Tuesdays so that is proof right there that things can be changed. The employees are going to realize that there are two sets of rules, one for them and one for managers.

            I dunno how many people you have but to me, I think rotating everyone through a turn of doing Tuesdays is fair. If you have four people who are on a level as Brian then Brian only needs to do one Tuesday a month.

          2. Casper Lives*

            In that case, why are you allowed to switch? You said your availability is Tuesday. Therefore according to your logic, you aren’t allowed to have another schedule. You must stay on Tuesdays forever.

            Well, I disagree. People’s lives change and schedules change. You should be allowed a schedule change but so should Brian!

    7. Katie*

      So, Brian is not available Tuesdays. It’s your responsibility as manager to get someone else on the schedule for that shift.
      In the long run, this is going to run Brian off if you don’t accommodate his reasonable request. Then there will be a bunch more shifts to fill than Tuesdays.

    8. The Person from the Resume*

      The problem isn’t you and your happiness with your hours/days.

      The problem is Brian needs the schedule to change. He volunteered to work Tuesday evening when it worked for him (and helped you out), now that it doesn’t work he needs off Tuesday evenings. Be a manager and find/assign another employee to work Tuesdays. Change the schedule to rotate working evenings among all employees so occasionally it might be a problem for Brian but it’s usually not.

      Manage your schedule.

    9. njcovid*

      You are conflating 2 different scenarios. Asking employees to arrange their own coverage for an occasional conflict is one situation.

      But Brian is asking for a permanent schedule change – no more Tues evenings. This is a MANAGEMENT responsibilty.

    10. Jessi*

      Your options aren’t Brian does the shift forever or one other staff member does. If no one wants the Tuesday shift permanently then every staff member gets one every 4 weeks (or 5 or 6 or 3 depending upon how many staff members you have.) then at least it’s equally unfair!

      Or maybe ask all of your staff to hand in a new updated hours and use that to build a new roster? Just because things have always been done this way or that way doesn’t mean you can’t do it better

      1. Varthema*

        AITA, I don’t think you are TA (and are possibly feeling piled on), and having also worked in retail, I completely understand where your thought process is coming from and have no problem believing that you got concurrence from your gut-check from other store managers. But I will gently point out that retail norms about Decency Toward Employees is really, really, skewed, and what can look like decency in a retail setting does not outside it, and TBH I think that’s the main reason there’s been such flight from the industry. It took me a long time to recalibrate my own inner compass after leaving retail, and now I’m a little horrified when I look back. Another thing is that store managers are generally made to believe that they have All the Responsibility but None of the Power (bc of corporate decisions/policy and also precedent), and actually that’s pretty true, but also, you have more power than you think. Maybe not so much when it comes to corporate (you can’t decide to not stay open understaffed, unfortunately), but when it comes to precedence (e.g. It’s always up to the employee to find shift coverage forever and ever amen).

        What I would do is lay it out to the team in stark terms – Brain took one for the team by volunteering for Tuesday hours, not because he wanted to but because he is awesome, and we are so grateful for that. He’s put in his time, and now it’s time for him to have a break. Which is why [new policy w taking turns with rotating Tuesday shifts] is the new thing.” Ideally, Brian would not be in the first few (or many) rotations. Up to you whether it’d be easier logistically to rotate every Tuesday or maybe rotate Tuesdays by month, or whatever! But I agree that it’s equally unfair to just dump Tuesdays indefinitely onto someone.

  10. Two Chairs, One to Go*

    What’s the best way to follow up when someone is on vacation? I had a good interview on Monday and the interviewer told me they’d be on vacation next week. Should I check in with the recruiter who set it up today or Monday? I know I should proceed as if I won’t make it to the next round but I don’t know how to do that. Things are also really stressful in general for me so I keep hoping that each interview will lead to an offer but no such luck yet.

    1. Gracely*

      Follow up with email like you would with anyone else, but don’t expect a reply while the person is on vacation. I imagine they told you just so that you wouldn’t worry about not hearing from them for a couple of weeks.

    2. Mostly Managing*

      If you haven’t already thanked them for the interview, why not send the interviewer a quick note this morning saying something like,

      “It was a pleasure meeting with you on Monday. I am really excited about the position, especially (insert detail here). I hope you have a great time away, and look forward to hearing from you when you get back”.

      (“when you get back” because you really don’t want to make them think you expect any kind of reply today.)

      1. Two Chairs, One to Go*

        I did send a thank you email to the interviewer already!

        Maybe it’ll help to clarify – a 3rd party recruiter got me this interview and I’d like to follow up with them no matter what as they may have other opportunities if this doesn’t pan out.

    3. PollyQ*

      You shouldn’t follow up at all. Classic AAM advice is to assume you didn’t make it to the next round, and if you do, it’ll be a pleasant surprise. How you do it is you simply (which may not be the same as “easily”) don’t make a phone call and don’t send an email.

      All this assumes you’ve already sent the standard thank you/follow-up email though. If you haven’t done that, go ahead & do it now.

    4. just a thought*

      If you already sent the standard thank you email, then you don’t need to follow-up again. You applied for the job and took time to interview, so they know you’re interested.

      If the follow-up you’re referring to is the Interview Thank You email, then you can send it whenever. She’ll see it when she returns.

    5. Notfunny.*

      I think it’s too soon to follow up, maybe schedule an email to go to them in the middle of the week that they’re back from vacation?

    6. Everything Bagel*

      I don’t think you should follow up a week after your interview, especially when you know the interviewer then went on vacation for a week. Give it a few weeks before following up.

    7. Hiring Mgr*

      Yes, there’s no harm at all in checking in with the recruiter – they may or may not have any feedback but esp if they other positions as well. The answers here that say don’t do it I think are assuming you mean contact the hiring manager but I think you’re asking about the recruiter,

      1. Two Chairs, One to Go*

        Yes, I don’t think I was clear in my question. I will check in with the recruiter early next week!

  11. Am I actually on a sinking ship?*

    Turnover in my new-ish job is really high. It’s not any one particular department or manager, it’s across the entire organization. I feel like I must be missing something, because I’m really happy with the pay, work, and colleagues. Any aggravations/complaints I have are standard ones that exist in my role no matter what company I’d be at.

    I’m wondering if I can somehow subtly start polling people who give their two weeks…hard to do in a fully-remote role.

    1. Internproblems*

      Are the people leaving at your level, above you, below, or is it across the board? I was happy in my job until I started working more closely with the higher ups. I got a whole new understanding of why there was turnover. Maybe there’s something similar going on, or maybe your new workforce is like the one someone wrote recently, where they “don’t do raises.”

      If you do try to poll people, of course try to do it via 1-on-1 virtual coffee meetings rather than over Slack chat or any other written media. Know that with you being new, people may not be comfortable opening up to you right away about the problems they see/experience. Perhaps you’ll get more honest answers (and protect your own reputation so you don’t seem like you’re fishing for gossip) by saying something like: “everyone I’ve worked with so far seems really great. I know there’s a lot of turnover in the workforce generally, but I was surprised that person A, B, and C left. Do you have any insight to that? I’m wondering if there’s some context I’m missing by being new.”

    2. Ama*

      So at my workplace it feels like our turnover comes in waves — no one will leave for the better part of a year and then 3-4 people will leave within a month (we only have 30 employees, so 3 people is a lot). So it is possible that maybe that’s all this is, if you haven’t been there for very long.

      It’s also good to remember that people don’t always leave a job because they are unhappy — they could be looking for a new challenge, or have always wanted to move into a particular sector and the exact right job came along, or even just feel restless after being in one place for a few years.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Don’t underestimate either that it’s a job-seekers’ market right now, for the first time in many years. There’s a certain amount of “there’s fairly high turnover” happening in all kinds of organizations and industries right now and some of it is part of this much broader economic theme. You’re absolutely right to question things and even reach out to some of the people leaving, especially if you have any kind of relationship with them, but keep in mind that plenty of people are testing the waters at the moment too. As Alison talks about, the best way to get a raise is while negotiating for your new role, and plenty of folks will be taking advantage of this right now.

    4. Irish Teacher*

      Could it be simply something like another company in the same field expanding and reaching out to “poach” staff?

      Or is it possible there is something about your job that suits you but does not suit others? Like, I half-enjoy correcting the state exams; I don’t even do it for the money nowadays, I do it for the professional development and because I like having something to do during the summer holidays. But it has a pretty low retention rate from one year to the next. I think only about half of people return after doing it once, 2/3s at most. It’s probably a good thing I started when the internet was less of a thing because if you ask for advice about doing it on any of the teaching sites, you’ll get replies like “not worth it. It’s exhausting, a 7 day a week job and you don’t even get paid until September and then half of it goes on tax. Don’t do it unless you’re desperate” sort of thing. It’s not that I’m missing anything (or that they are), just that you have to be really disciplined and good with deadlines and stuff. It’s really NOT a job for a procrastinator. And it suits me.

  12. OfficeWorkNoob*

    Just wanted to get a wider perspective on work expectations in an office job.

    My work style is to obsess over a project until it’s done, and then take a proportional amount of time to goof off and recover. (e.g. I’ll spend 2 weeks where most of my waking hours are spent on the project, then I’ll take a week or a week and a half to do whatever I want) That’s how I functioned in college and was on the dean’s list and got scholarships and all sorts of things. Cue graduation and working a 9-5 office job, and it’s been really difficult for me to do my best work.

    It’s been a few years now, so I’m kinda just bored and disengaged (maybe burned myself out?), but I kept trying to “work” (really intense focused work) all 8 hours of the day, all 5 days a week, and it was such a drag. I only had a couple hours to really get into something before I had to switch gears and try and disengage from work, and I also never really have enough time to complete the cycle of rest as well. Complicating this system is my chronic illness. I’ll have good weeks and bad weeks, which feels into the whole feast/famine work cycle where I work intensely when I’m feeling well and can’t think straight when I’m not.

    Is there anyone who has a similar work style that’s figured out a way to make an office job work, or do I have to just switch careers or start freelancing? (Very difficult to do when depending on employer-provided health insurance) I’ve been told people aren’t really expected to work the full workday? What do you do in an office if not working? Pretending to work is hardly a restorative break, so I don’t see the appeal.

    1. Gracely*

      You’re not supposed to work 8 hours straight–it’s expected that those hours are going to be interspersed throughout the day with conversations with colleagues, taking a 10 minute break to read something fun on the internet like AAM/etc., maybe take a walk around the building to stretch your legs, get coffee/tea, etc.

      You might want to try being more purposeful about those kinds of breaks, perhaps, since you say you thrive on feast/famine? Like, work hard for 3-4 hours, take a lunch break, chat with colleagues/walk/get coffee/etc., then work another couple of hours before going home.

      2. Camelid coordinator*

        Thanks for this list. I had this rhythm down when I worked an 8 hour day in an office with other staff. I now find myself working a half time job remotely, and I am struggling with how to approach counting the time. I might throw my dilema into next week’s conversation for feedback!

    2. Jigsaw*

      To answer what do people do when they are not working, they:
      – Talk to their coworkers
      – Go for a walk
      – Go get a coffee/soda
      – Play ping pong/foosball/whatever table top game their office might have (in our office, we do puzzles)
      – Do some brainstorming about how they might do their work better
      – Do some goal planning
      – Watch training videos or LinkedIn Learning videos
      – Clean/organize their area
      – Read AAM or the news

    3. Emm*

      It’s not that you’re not really working all day, it’s more that you’re not expected to hammer through 8 hours of work and be 100% productive for that entire time. You work on one project for an hour, then switch to another. You have slower tasks, like sorting through email or planning your to-do list. You can chat a little with coworkers, take a break, get a coffee, etc. All this stuff is built into workday. You ARE working, just maybe not in the sense that we’re used to in school.

      It feels like maybe you need something outside of work where you can do things the way you want, with the understanding that a standard office job might be a little slower, sometimes boring, but still let you feel productive. I don’t know what that might be, but having something else to focus on might be a good start.

      1. OfficeWorkNoob*

        I like your advice, although I think the dilemma is “[doing] things the way I want” involves having large chunks of time, which don’t really exist when working a standard office job. I was able to take off a couple weeks in June to go backpacking and it was heavenly. I wish I could work 3 twelves and then have 4 days at a stretch to do fun things.

        1. Mockingjay*

          Can you change your start/end hours? Come in an hour or two earlier, so you leave earlier and have long afternoons and evenings free.

        2. Emm*

          Maybe an office job isn’t for you! There are jobs out there that operate on that kind of schedule, although you would have to do some research to find them.

      2. ThatGirl*

        This. It’s rare to be expected to work on one thing, all day, 8 hours without a break (or with just lunch).

        On days I’m in the office, I work intently for awhile, chat with my teammates for a few minutes – sometimes work-related, sometimes not – get up and use the restroom and get a drink, maybe have a meeting, maybe watch a LinkedIn learning video, maybe check AAM, look through old projects, review my to-do list… and then go back to “working intently”.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I’ve been told people aren’t really expected to work the full workday? What do you do in an office if not working?

      This really depends on your field/type of work you do, so I’m going to answer for a generic office environment. Let’s say your job is to update spreadsheets and write reports. The “really intense focus” way of doing your job looks like burying your nose in your computer for 8 hours a day, always thinking about and working on the spreadsheets and reports, then struggling to disengage and relax after 5pm.

      The “not working a full workday” way of doing your job looks more like: come in to the office, make yourself a list of the most important spreadsheets/reports to focus on for that day, grab a cup of coffee and chat with your coworkers for 5 min, update the first spreadsheet, read an Ask a Manager post, write the first report, Steve stops by your desk with a quick question and you end up talking about your weekend plans for 10 min, update the second spreadsheet, etc.

      My examples are really generic, and I think a lot of your situation depends on: (1) how long does it take you to get into your focused and working state? (2) what length of time do you need to make progress on whatever your job is? Can you tackle things in 1 hour blocks, or do you need 10 hour blocks of focused work to complete things?

      1. OfficeWorkNoob*

        Thinking about how much time my minimum amount of time to have good focused work is a good strategy, so I can make sure I get at least one of those. I think my minimum is probably 3-4 hours, which can be difficult to get with lunch and meetings, but it’s not impossible.

    5. Manchmal*

      I wonder if being more methodical about your work might help? Making lists of tasks, pacing yourself. Perhaps you could leave the lower brain power tasks for when you’re not feeling as well. Like, when you have good focus and energy, focus on the project work, and when you’re not, follow up with emails, etc?

      I guess I’m making this suggestion because when I work in projects in those long bursts, it is usually because I don’t have a clear understanding of how to do it in an orderly way, and I’m often feeling my way through the work. This may not apply to you at all!

      1. OfficeWorkNoob*

        You might have hit on a factor I hadn’t considered, but is probably in play. I’m a software developer, and I’ve been put in charge of a lot of half-done projects that are using technology I don’t fully understand. From what I can tell, it’s near an industry standard that you just have to figure out how things fit in as you go along because the projects are too big and complex for one person to hold in their brain. But that does mean I’m constantly trying to feel out what actually needs doing and how to actually do it.

        Also, I’m entertained by imagining the fall out of not responding to any emails for a week because I was doing the brain power tasks, and then spending the whole next week doing little but emails. It’s good advice for smaller good/bad cycles, but not universally applicable.

        1. SameSame*

          This is me! Projects are so much harder to get into and be productive when I have to first figure out where to even start, and then I get stuck frequently because of unfamiliar syntax or misleading code comments.

          Sometimes I have to go as far as telling myself “spend a good 5 minutes on this, then you can take a 5 minute break” just to get past the inertia of getting started on one of these conglomerations.

        2. Migraine Month*

          I’ve found scheduling regular meetings with experienced people to try to acquire their knowledge to be really helpful, especially at the beginning. Working on legacy software is closer to archaeology than it is to writing your own code; often the reason that the software is written that way is due to a changed requirement ten years ago, so try to buddy up with the longest-tenured developer (who knows where the bodies are buried).

          Also, try to balance your tasks. If one of your projects is “read through this dense code to understand its structure”, break that up with quick “fix the typo on this page” tasks, some process improvement (e.g. set up email filters, write down the first five things to try when debugging, add a paragraph to an internal wiki), and some general professional development tasks (read AAM, do an online tutorial in your weakest programming language). Just remember to go back to reading the tricky code after the break.

          1. OfficeWorkNoob*

            Unfortunately, I am the longest-tenured developer still on the project… :/ We’ve had a bunch of people promoted or moved to different projects (because they got bored of the project? the politics? because they wanted to follow the promoted boss? idk), so I can ask one-off questions, but to schedule more support than that gets into figuring out what contract is paying for it (government contracts), so I just avoid it.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          A good rule of thumb my wise friend talked about was watching the highs and the lows. A two week energy burst of work IS going to set anyone up for a week or two of down time. It’s not just you- it’s human nature.

          With this in mind, to break the cycle you will have to lower your intensity during your work spurts. Lower the peaks and the valleys won’t be so deep. At the same time raise up how much you are doing during your lulls. This will put you closer to a sustainable pace- a pace you can keep year round.

          Learn about incubation time and start to figure out how to leverage that into your over all work habits. Incubation time, is time spent away from something and not even thinking about it. While we are not really aware of it, we can continue to mull a problem or situation even if it is not at the forefront of our thinking atm.

          I like this if I get stuck. There’s no point to sitting there for an hour trying to figure it out. I am stuck. So if I turn and look at something else, such as a few emails, my brain relaxes. I get a small sense of accomplishment from answering emails, too. So when I go back to where I got stuck, I have fresh eyes and a small sense of renewed energy. I can usually get myself UNstuck.

          But there’s other ways to use incubation time. A brief stretch or a short walk is good for the body and the mind.

          The goal is to nip this problem now OR figure out if it not fixable because of the work itself. It’s well worth your time and energy here.

          Make more of an effort to notice what others around you are doing. Copy the better employees. If someone asks you for coffee- go at least once. You don’t have to make the person your friend and you don’t have to go again. The goal here is to find your own sane and sustainable pacing.

          What worked in college was only for those 4 years. It probably won’t hold up over decades of employment.

    6. Saraquill*

      One trick I quickly picked up for office life is drinking lots of fluid. Getting up and leaving your desk to get a beverage or use the toilet are acceptable breaks in decent workspaces. I’ve also stood up and stretched frequently when chairs made my legs hurt. All of these activities helped give my brain a break.

    7. Gnome*

      Was it really how you functioned in college? Did you walk from one class to another? Did you have gaps in your schedule for lunch – even if you didn’t use them? Were you working on one project or topic all day, or did it vary?

      I’m wondering if you might want to ask some questions like this and see if maybe you’ve been burning yourself out by ignoring the little gaps in time or by how your brain might have appreciated different types of stimuli or your body reaction to different rooms/surroundings.

      1. pancakes*

        Good point. I did sometimes work that way in college, but I also often went to the movies 3x a week! (On a Film Forum membership, not at a megaplex, fwiw; quite a bit cheaper).

    8. Paris Geller*

      My natural working style is very similar to yours, and going from school to the working world was HARD for me. I, much like you, would work on projects in long, sustained bursts and then recover. One thing that really helped me is getting rid of the idea of a “finish line”. Maybe your motivation is different, but in school I worked well this way because at the end, I was DONE. At work, sure, a project might be finished, but there’s always more work, some of which is project-based and some of which is responsive. I’ve deliberately trained myself to slow down. I’m a good worker, but I don’t try to be the fastest worker or even the best worker. I take stretch breaks. I organize my desk. I brainstorm future ideas (your mileage may vary if you’re in a job where you’re responsible for brainstorming/idea creation, but since I am, sometimes just letting my mind wander helps–and it actually is productive at the end of the day!). I make sure to take my lunches. I don’t let work or work projects consume me the same way I did in school.

    9. Tex*

      If you still want that schedule, get a job at a remote worksite – energy, US govt civilian contractor at a foreign base. It’s usually 6 weeks work (long days, including OT), 2 weeks off.

      1. just another queer reader*

        A few other industries that do intensive, long days and then more days off:
        Nursing – 3-4 12-hour shifts per week
        Some manufacturing (“4 12s”)
        Oil rigs in the Golf of Mexico
        Salmon fishing in Alaska
        Mining/ drilling in Alaska – AAM published a very interesting interview with someone who worked there

    10. Irish Teacher*

      I worked a lot like that in college too – “I have three assignments due in such a week, if I get them all done by the end of the week before, I won’t have much to do that week except attend class.”

      I’m a teacher so I guess that is sort of a similar working style (and yikes, my summer REALLY is, because I finish up at the end of May/early June, then I correct from the end of June to mid-July and that is REALLY full-on, then once that is over, I’m free again until the end of July). I never thought of this before but teaching really fits with my style of working, crazy busy, taking work home during term time, then plenty of breaks.

      Sorry, I haven’t really any advice for you. I’ve never really worked in a traditional office and this sounds like something I’d struggle with too.

  13. H*

    I want to quit my nonprofit/community board position. I just don’t like it and don’t want to do it anymore. I have no good reasons except I don’t want to spend my free time doing any of this stuff anymore. Any thoughts? Should I just suck it up. I literally just lied to get out of going to an 11A event tomorrow because I would rather going hiking.

    1. Heather*

      Well it sounds like maybe you need a vacation! Or maybe you should quit– it’s impossible to know from your brief letter. But I do know I would rather go hiking 100% of the time, rather than coming to my job, which I love and really enjoy.

      1. H*

        It is a volunteer board position which requires 1 board meeting a month which is 2-3 hours because our board is a mess. I am a program committee chair and that is another 2 hour meeting a month (all after 6:30P in the evening). This doesn’t include special meetings and events, etc ugh

        1. Beka Cooper*

          Hahaha I was briefly on the board for something like this, and it totally was a mess. In my day job, meetings resulted in concrete to-do lists for each member at the end of it. Then I went to these board meetings where the same conversation was had every time and nothing was ever concluded, and nobody actually did anything. It was so frustrating!

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “I am finding that I can’t devote the time and energy to the position that I think the organization deserves.”

      The **reason** that’s true is because you don’t like it. But nobody has to know that.

    3. Mockingjay*

      You don’t have to justify your reasons. Simply resign so they can find a replacement. “Dear Board, I am resigning from Position effective date. I have enjoyed supporting our community projects and wish you all the best.” If pressed, provide a vague answer: “I need to concentrate on some family matters.” If there are things to be turned over, explain how/when that will be done.

    5. Theo*

      Do it. Just do it! I quit mine last year and have enjoyed peace and freedom since :D

      If you’re feeling generous, tell them you will stay on until X is handled (whatever X is, as long as it has an end date).

      1. H*

        Everyone on this thread is making me feel a lot less guilty about this. I really don’t think I can stick it out until the end of the year. Makes me cringe!

        1. Gracely*

          Don’t stick it out until the end of the year! Give notice and an end date, and make it soon. Like, say, end of August.

          We have limited time in this life. If you’re able to do something with your time that you enjoy more, DO IT.

        2. Kay*

          I stepped down from multiple responsibilities recently, including board positions, and I feel so much better! They will continue after you are gone and you will be so much happier. My only regret – not doing it sooner.

    6. Beth*

      Don’t suck it up; spit it out.

      One of the best moments in my life was resigning from the board of an organization where I had volunteered. I still loved the group’s work, but man, the only thing I learned by sitting on that board was how useless a board can be. Resign with dignity and firmness, give reasonable notice, but don’t worry about giving any reason at all for resigning. Make your resignation utterly forgettable.

    7. just a thought*

      Go ahead and quit! It’s your free time and you should do things you enjoy.

      When I was on a board and people quit, we could either have other people take over or find someone new that was excited about the position. There’s no reason to stay if you don’t want to do it and other people more excited about the cause can fill in.

    8. The Prettiest Curse*

      As someone who worked in non-profits – board members leave all the time, for all kinds of reasons. It’s fine.

      The only reason there would be concern over your quitting would be if you’d agreed to specific conditions (length of service or a large donation/commitment to raise funds) when you started your board term, but even then there should be wriggle room if you discuss it first. (Also, it’s not like leaving a job, so there’s ultimately not much they can do to stop you from resigning.)

      Go forth and enjoy your free time!

    9. H*

      UPDATE! Drafted my brief letter to resign and scheduled it to leave my inbox to the Board President and ED at 4:55P. I feel liberated already!

        1. Her name was Joanne*

          Agreed. As someone who has been a nonprofit ED and on exec team, it’s good you’re leaving. An unengaged board member is, in many ways, worse than none at all. A win for you because you want to leave; a win for them because they can find a new, enthusiastic board member.

          1. BookMom*

            So true! You’re opening up a space for some one else who wants to serve! (And, frankly, disengaged board members drag every one else down.)

      2. Good on you*

        Applause. Maybe you’ll find another board or position after awhile. Maybe not. Good on you for self care.

    10. to varying degrees*

      Just write a letter of resignation and be done with it. I used to oversee about 21-22 different volunteer boards and seriously, I got resignations all the time. Some moved, didn’t have time, got sick or just didn’t want to do it anymore. All they need is a letter with an effective date and that’s it.

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      An idea you might be able to reframe for yourself… some years ago our very active parent-teacher association president resigned before both her kids graduated. Public reason: “so that others can learn the role while I’m still here to help out.” Private reason: Get to play with her younger child at some events instead of being 100% tied up running them.

    12. RagingADHD*

      “I just don’t like it and don’t want to do it anymore.”

      Sounds like a very good reason to me.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Board member here. People leave boards all the time for this reason. I have 7 or so years with my current board we have lost at least 4 board members in those years.
      There is no shame in saying, “This isn’t for me.” Or “I have found that I need more personal time during the month.”

      Boards are a huge time suck and the regs are headbanging hard to work with. Even good board members who are immersed in the NPO, leave because of the intensity.

      Keep it short, give your resignation and they will thank you for your service. Then it’s over.

    14. M.*

      I wrote about something similar in last week’s thread. I’m not at the point where I want to quit yet, but it’s really starting to wear on me how much time out of my life this volunteer position takes. Today (Sunday, my day off), for example, it took me three hours to fill out, organize, and mail a slew of TY cards to donors. It really is exhausting. I believe in the mission 100%, but this is starting to amount to a PT job in hours each month, and that’s not what I ever wanted.

  14. Shopping anonymously*

    Any great farewell gift ideas for a colleague who’s moving abroad (presumably won’t be able to bring a ton of books or sentimental items)?

    1. Mostly Managing*

      When I moved overseas, one of the nicest gifts I was given was from my landlady. She gave me a set of coasters with pictures of this area on them. Totally a “tourist” item, but in my new home it was lovely to have photos of places that I missed. Plus, they were small so they didn’t take much space to pack.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      A hand-written card that says you enjoyed working with them (add a specific story or two) and you wish them well in their new country. A card is small and easy to pack, and something they can keep for a long time to remember the good relationship you had.

    3. Goose*

      When moving overseas, the last thing I would want is more “stuff”, so I would stick with a nice card or something that can be eaten quickly

    4. Aspiring*

      When my boss retired and moved out of state, I gave him a cheese board with a sort of touristy map laser cut into it. So … thin, practical, and he could entertain at his new place and point out where he lived and worked while serving snacks. Got it from Etsy.

    5. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      You could do a gift card (or online) to a common store or restaurant in the new country. Think like whatever their DoorDash or Kroger/Walmart/Target equivalent is. Or Amazon!

      They’re sure to need stuff.

    6. FalsePositive*

      I agree with a card with some nice, specific things you enjoyed about working with them (doesn’t have to be deep and profound, just “Hey I always appreciate your help. Remember X project, I’m glad we worked on it together.”

      Otherwise, if they will be packing/storing things, maybe a funny gift of packing tape and permanent markers. Or if you have the ability to haul around bigger thing, an offer to take things to the dump or to donate, etc.

    7. Robin Ellacott*

      I live on the west coast of Canada, and I gave a work friend moving to Europe a pashmina-size scarf with Haida designs on it. She used it on the plane and it was a memory of home.

      Something like that that’s local art or design, like earrings, a pen, a bookmark (the type of small thing you find in an art gallery store) might be workable.

    8. I wish I could move abroad*

      maybe a gift certificate to something akin to doordash in their new country, or honestly gift certificates to any popular type of home goods/hardware store to help them settle into their new home! moving abroad is sooooo expensive.

    9. AcademiaNut*

      As the colleague who has moved abroad, nothing that needs to be packed! I’ve literally had to throw away gifts that I would have quite appreciated otherwise, because I couldn’t fit in in my luggage and didn’t have time to figure out what to do with it. When I’m flying to a new location, I’ve usually got my luggage right up to the weight limit (including extra bags).

      One I really appreciated in a work/social setting was a digital photo album collected from friends and colleagues covering my time there. Otherwise, a card, with comments and signatures from everyone, is a nice keepsake.

    10. Zee*

      Money. Moving abroad is expensive.

      All the going-away gifts I got went straight to Goodwill when I moved overseas… with the exception of one, which was a greeting card-sized watercolor painting that my boss did. Lightweight and easy to pack by tucking into one of the few books I took. But I only hung onto it because she painted it… wouldn’t have kept it if someone just bought it for me.

  15. hopeful ex librarian*

    I just wanted to thank y’all for the cover letter advice on my post last week. I’ve implemented some of the suggestions when I did my job application day this week — for my own mental health, I only search/apply a day or two a week.

    Specifically, I’ve tried to show more why I’m applying to that job or why I’m interested in the field, and drawing from my experience, thanks to the advice from my last thread.

    I’m really hoping for at least a couple interviews soon. Ideally, I’d get farther than a single interview, but… it’s been a really hard process (for a few reasons), probably because I’m also trying to leave the library field and see what else is out there; so, I’ll take any wins where I can get them.

    I’m so appreciative of this community. :)

    2. Monkey, Bear and Mouse*

      Well done! Job hunting is…well, a job in itself. Let us know how it’s going!

    3. current ex librarian*

      it looks like you’re looking into various options. have you considered data governance? it’s pretty hot field that hardly anybody understands. I got my MSLIS in 2019, got hired in an entry level DG position at a fortune 50 company, and am now at different company getting paid bank to lead their program. good luck!

      1. Another librarian*

        Can you talk about what skills are needed to get into data governance? Did you take courses while getting your MLIS related to it?

        1. hopeful ex librarian*

          oooh, yes, i’d love to know more too! i also have my mlis but haven’t heard of this. :D

  16. Emm*

    Yesterday I saw a Buzzfeed article highlighting a Twitter trend of people discussing why they hate cover letters and other things about the application process. Okay, “article” is a strong word for page that’s just a collection of other people’s tweets, but it was interesting to read some of the thoughts there and I was curious how people here feel about cover letters.

    Personally, I’ve found a cover letter a great place to emphasize things that are harder to glean from my resume, such as how my positions in different fields all follow a common thread and make me a stronger candidate for the different experiences I’ve had. But I do agree that for some positions, they seem unnecessary or overdone, and I understand the frustration. I guess I work in an area where it’s still the standard, so it’s fine with me.

    Anyone else have thoughts on this?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Well-done cover letters can be very helpful, but not every position should require them. I think they also have a decently steep learning curve. It’s easy to write a bad cover letter. It’s all the stress of college application essays all over again.

      1. Emm*

        That’s so true! I found some old cover letters recently that I wrote in college, and… oh man, I cringed.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Let’s say there’s two kinds of people in some sort of ratio. Some like reading cover letters, some don’t bother. The people that don’t read them, won’t read yours and probably won’t even think twice about it, so no harm/no foul. The people that DO read them like the ones that don’t read like the “personalized” letters you get from insurance companies about all their latest deals. They will actually engage with text that is authentic and specific to them.

      So I recommend using cover letters as a signifier for “hey, you guys are specifically a company I’d like to do this role for, and here’s a hook that might be helpful for you to have in mind while you look at this resume I’ve crafted to fully address your job posting. Oh, and I’d love to talk to you about it, so here’s the best ways/times to reach me.”

      They don’t have to be long, and they shouldn’t re-state the resume, but they can highlight the best bits.

    3. SEB*

      I would love to see cover letters disappear from applications completely for two reasons – 1 – it’s time consuming for the applicants and many hiring managers will never read it (unless you make it to later stages – in which case, ask for it at a later stage in the process) and 2 – I don’t believe it is an equitable or inclusive practice.

      Re: 1 – Sure, as a candidate you have a template that you then will tweak and edit for a role specifically, but it still takes time. As someone who believes they write strong cover letters and has a few starting templates, I would say it still takes 10 minutes at least to edit/change and save/PDF each customized cover letter per application. Last job search I applied to about 70 places, most of which required cover letters. That’s 11 hours on cover letters!! As someone who has led recruitment departments for years, I can assure you that the recruiter or hiring manager is opening your resume first, scanning, and making a decision. A few may THEN decide to look at your cover letter IF your resume was strong, but even then, a lot won’t. That’s a lot of wasted time on my part for little return.

      Re: 2 – The cover letter requirement is going to shrink your pool. For candidates that have family obligations after work, they might not be able to prioritize writing cover letters between caring for an elderly parent or putting kids to bed. If they’re a strong candidate, they’ll skip your application and stick to postings that don’t require it. As we’ve learned here on AAM, there’s an art to writing to a good cover letter. I think the cover letter requirement gives an advantage to individuals who have support and resources to know how to do this – family/parents in the corporate world, a strong career center at a university, etc. Individuals navigating the corporate world themselves for the first time are at an inherent disadvantage. It’s incredibly tough to take a job description, suss out the most critical elements and then tailor a letter that provides the details the hiring manager wants to know. You’re having to mind-read!

      I would much prefer to see organizations move to a few short questions and eliminate cover letters. Don’t make people guess what you want to know or have them highlight that’s not on their resume. Just ask.

      1. Emm*

        Interesting points! I’m all for making job applications easier, and it is true that cover letter writing is an art which requires a know-how. But writing a good resume is also a learned skill that not everyone knows how to do, and that’s much more commonly expected (and more useful) than a cover letter. I wonder if we’re moving towards a future without either of these to something more like a fillable application (the kind of thing we already see, but without the need to upload anything else), so the whole process becomes a little easier to immerse yourself in without all the prerequisite knowledge.

      2. pancakes*

        “A few may THEN decide to look at your cover letter IF your resume was strong, but even then, a lot won’t.”

        You don’t think this is likely to vary tremendously depending on how much of the job involves written communication? I expect a hiring manager looking for, say, retail staff, will give candidates’ cover letters a quick skim at most, unless something jumps out at them. I would expect a hiring manager looking for someone to work in, say, the investor relations division of the same retail company, to have a different approach.

      3. Desdemona*

        I agree— but also when I’ve been a hiring manager, I’ve had 300+ people apply for the same job. I can’t possibly narrow it down just based on the resume. I need the cover letter to help. I also hire for roles that require very good writing skills and empathy, and so cover letters are great for showcasing those skills.

        1. allathian*

          Yes, this. I write for a living, and cover letters have been necessary for every job application I’ve done since I got out of retail.

          Naturally there are jobs where cover letters shouldn’t be necessary, and could be considered discriminatory, because the job doesn’t require great writing skills.

    4. Saraquill*

      Some people are adept at writing formal nonfiction that’s both vague and formulaic. I’m not one of them, and I don’t have the headspace to write a custom tailored cover letter for every position I apply to, especially when I was sending out a high volume of applications a week.

    5. The Prettiest Curse*

      Cover letters are great for explaining details that aren’t easily conveyed in resume format. Using a cover letter made it much easier to explain why most of my work experience was in the US when applying for jobs after I moved back to the UK. Having a big header saying “recently relocated to X place” would really be the only way to do that in resume format and even then, it could still get missed when the resume is chopped up into plain text by applicant tracking systems.

      Cover letter explanations would also be helpful for anyone with gaps between jobs, who is looking to switch fields or who is trying to explain a complicated employment history.

    6. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      This spring when I was searching it was at first a very casual search at first and a lot of the ATS systems really didn’t have a place to add one. So I don’t bother and still got a lot of interviews. I think if they ask for one, or there’s a clear place to add one, or it’s a job you really want badly, it’s not going to harm you.

      But if you’re in a field where it doesn’t seem to matter, I think it’s equally valid to try applying first without one if you want.

    7. Mantis Tobaggan, MD*

      I would never skip the cover letter personally, for reasons specific to my situation. First, I’ve never applied to more than a few jobs a week (they just aren’t enough relevant postings in my geographic area) so it’s not a huge time burden. Second, the roles I would consider applying for tend to involve a lot of writing so of course I’d take advantage of a cover letter to showcase my writing abilities.

      1. Fran Fine*

        This, all the way. I’m in communications, so writing a good cover letter can actually showcase my skills right upfront and put me over the top when other applicants fail to include one.

    8. Dark Macadamia*

      I think it’s good to have a built-in way to explain things that might be concerning. I was a trailing spouse and then a SAHM so my work history looks really bad (lots of 1-2 year positions and then out of work for several years). It was reassuring to have a space where I could be like “I’m not a flake and I’m not going to move again!” up front. They’re miserable to write though and I think I’m an above-average writer for a non-writing industry.

    9. ND and awkward*

      I loathe cover letters. I’m autistic with severe social anxiety, so I can agonise for literal days over what ends up being two shoddy paragraphs. It’s honestly a miracle I was even interviewed for my current job, hearing how much stock HR put in cover letters once I was hired (I sat opposite them in the open office), but with all the above-and-beyond work I’ve done in my time here they’d have been hard pressed to get a better fit for what they needed based on my original job description.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        Right, and writing cover letters isn’t your job description! It’s not a requirement of the job, but it is a requirement to get the job. It’s so silly. Being able to present yourself well — in person or in a letter — is a whole other skill people have to learn for job applications, which sucks when it’s not part of the job at all. Like, of course I’d expect a writer to have a good cover letter.

        1. pancakes*

          If you were hiring someone to, say, do some work on your home, you wouldn’t look at how the candidates for that presented themselves at all? That’s probably not the best analogy, but what I’m trying to say is that categorically overlooking that could (or would) result in overlooking relevant info about the best person for the job. It doesn’t strike me as ridiculous that strangers won’t already know all they need to about one another. Both people in that scenario will have to “present themselves” to some degree or other in order to accomplish what they’re trying to accomplish.

          1. ND and awkward*

            Is that not what CVs and qualifications are for, though? My disability-caused struggles with communication have very little to do with my work ability, as proven by the “rockstar” reputation I’ve earned everywhere I’ve worked. Putting more stock in how I present myself would be overlooking the value I bring.

            1. pancakes*

              I’m thinking of the person who recently posted in the weekend thread about a worker who turned up at their home, hired by their contractor I think, and spouted some very unpleasant and unsettling conspiracy theories while there. Looking strictly at someone’s CV and qualifications often doesn’t reveal much about what it’s like to spend time in their company, or whether they have good judgment about the world around them, or any number of other qualities that working with them will often eventually reveal. For some jobs maybe those qualities aren’t the most important, but I think there are relatively few where they’re immaterial.

      2. Parakeet*

        I’m also autistic with severe social anxiety, but I like cover letters because my career trajectory and combination of skills are very weird and a cover letter lets me frame them in a way that’s to my advantage.

        I can understand why people who don’t need to do that kind of framing, would find them really annoying to do, though.

    10. talos*

      I hate cover letters. I’m a software developer, so one of those fields where writing isn’t irrelevant per se but certainly isn’t a core job task.

      I just…never know what to put? Like, you can tell I’m qualified because of what is on my resume, and you can tell I’m capable of communicating when I interview (and when we exchange emails to set up interviews and such, which is honestly a much closer match for most of the writing I actually do day-to-day in my job). There is nothing to put in my cover letter that isn’t already on my resume, and most software job postings are not specific enough about the details of the role for me to talk about why I fit well (I think this is largely an IP protection thing and/or a blanket-job-posting thing, and is particularly common at very large companies). Plus I get pretty severe anxiety about what to put in these kinds of thing.

      More cynically, I write decently but interview *extremely* well, so I want my first impression to be the interview rather than a cover letter.

    11. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      As a hiring manager I find cover letters so valuable, though I can acknowledge they might not apply to every job in every field. When I’m reviewing a stack of resumes, there is often additional information I want — was your last job grooming one llama every day or grooming the tails of 17 llamas every day and do you understand the difference as it relates to the job opening I’m hiring for? That isn’t always something that is apparent from a resume. Are you actively pursuing a move to my city even though your resume lists jobs in another state? That would give me a different perspective than a resume alone. That’s the TYPE of information I usually look for, along with anything that wouldn’t naturally fit in a CV.

      I will say, though, that in speaking with friends and colleagues about how I screen resumes and cover letters, it’s often a matter of perspective. I am a direct person and letters that start by telling me they have dreamed of grooming llamas for years drive me nuts because I mostly only care about what skills they are bringing to my team. But I know other managers who genuinely prefer a longer, more story oriented letter. Like so many things in life it can be a bit of a crap shoot as well.

    12. TPS reporter*

      I’m a manager in a large org that gets a ton of applications, so cover letters really help identify who among many would be good for the initial round. Many people seem to apply to us because we have a pretty well known name and not because they know anything about the job or if the job is what they really want. My positions also involve heavy writing skills so I want to see that someone can briefly and clearly describe themselves and how their experience fits with the role. The role also involves communications with people across the world on a daily basis so again writing skills are extremely valuable.

      To determine if a cover letter is needed (I agree that not all positions should require one) the hiring manager should consider what kind of company they you have and what kind of role they are looking to fill to determine if a cover letter is needed.

    13. Eyes Kiwami*

      Something that’s common in my country is rather than a cover letter–that is, a proper letter format document with no baked-in template where you decide whatever details are worth adding– here we do something different: often there is a text box (traditionally this is a space on your resume template) where you write about your motivation for applying, and there is another text box where you can introduce yourself and PR your skills. Sometimes there is another box for other relevant information you want to tell a company. Sometimes online these have character limits, and of course on a paper resume you don’t want it to be too long. So it’s really just two paragraphs you have to write, instead of a full letter.

      I think that is basically the same as a cover letter, content-wise, except that it’s clearly labeled as a section and it’s just a paragraph, so you don’t need to come up with new fluff about how you’re soooo excited to apply.

  17. Internproblems*

    How can I rescind acceptance of a misleading “development opportunity”? I know the answer may be that I cannot, but I have been waiting all week to get advice on this. My to-do list is already too long, and I accepted not realizing how much would be involved. The things we have to do to comply with the requirements of the corporate initiative are simple (think, requiring everyone to confirm they completed anti-corruption training). But my grandboss wants me to come up with a sort of “team building” event (with no associated budget).

    This is not in line with my development goals, I am already working outside of my original job (and have to wait another six months to know my new compensation, title, official job description, etc. And whether I’ll even get promoted to recognize my existing higher-level work. Take a guess on if I’m job searching). I see now that this was BS corporate framing of taking on more work without any increase in compensation, and I fell for it. I want to go back to my boss and say that I have too much actual work to “give this the focus it deserves” and suggest they rehome tasks that aren’t mandatory. Or perhaps saying I don’t see added value to what is being asked of me, and asking my boss to explain how this helps my development?

    I don’t know if I’ll completely burn the bridge by doing that though. They already announced to the team that I would be taking this on. Honestly…I feel played and taken advantage of more than I already did. But I know bringing that framing to my boss isn’t going to be useful. I need to just not have to do this anymore on top of all the other legitimate stretch assignments I am already doing.

    1. Emm*

      I’m not 100% sure that I’m understanding, but it sounds like this team building event is as much an assigned task as it is a development opportunity, since it was something your grandboss asked you to do. In that case, I would rope in your boss to see if you can get some support and have a talk about your workload. Ask for help!

      If it’s something that you can’t get out of, I think it’s worth trying to look at it from a different perspective. Perhaps this isn’t the kind of specific work you thought you would be working on, but putting in a good effort may be good professional development in your relationship with others at the company.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Classic Alison prioritization script: “Boss, I’ve already got A – W on my plate. If I work on the team building exercise, A- M won’t be completed on time for the client. Is there someone else who can develop the exercise?”

      This phrasing makes it clear that 1) your priorities are your regular tasks/clients and 2) there might be someone else who can handle the task. Bosses have their “go-to” people who become defaults (you’re reliable and YOU GET STUFF DONE); remind Boss that other team members can handle stuff too.

      1. Internproblems*

        I appreciate this reminder to treat it as another task, rather than the extra special joyous event it was supposed to be for me. Because it really is just another task. Treating it as such when positioning my workload to my boss is I think the best way for me to not get emotional/frustrated during the conversation.

  18. Saraquill*

    Sharing a weird job offer from this past winter.

    In addition to a day job, I volunteer at a magazine. All magazine staff, paid and volunteer, have a name (at) magazine dot com address. I get a Linked In message one day from someone saying they’re a big fan of the magazine and they liked my LinkedIn profile. Would I like a day job at their company? They also had a staff member reverse engineer my magazine email to email me the same offer.

    I’m job hunting anyway, so I give a look to this company, and the look legitimate. I reply with my interest via LinkedIn messaging. Through email, I ask we continue communications through my personal email, which I check much more often than magazine email. They proceed to ignore me on LinkedIn and continue reaching out to me via my magazine email. Then they get cross I never make it to a video interview I didn’t know about in advance, as they kept using my magazine email.

    We ended up rescheduling the interview, but then they ghosted me. I don’t feel bad the job offer went nowhere.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      There’s SO MANY reasons a candidate would prefer not to be using a work email for negotiations about a job interview.

      The fact that they couldn’t manage to adjust from using a contact method that THEY initiated by reverse engineering the emails was definitely one of the first of many red flags in this situation.

    2. pancakes*

      I don’t think it does look legitimate for whoever that was to offer someone they’d never spoken to a job based on a connection to a magazine. That’s not how well-run businesses operate!

  19. BalanceofThemis*

    I’m struggling with burnout and know I need to take some time off, but looking at the programming schedule we have, it’s not going to be possible this year. What’s worse is my boss is currently taking a 2 week vacation, another co-worker will be taking 2 weeks at the end of the month, and I can’t even find 2 days to give myself a long weekend.

    Any tips for not fully melting down are appreciated.

    1. Alex*

      Why do your boss and coworkers think that they can take time off when you don’t think so? Do they not work on programming?

      Clearly your boss values time off. Can you ask her that you really need some time off and that you feel you can’t due to your responsibilities, and ask her to help you with that?

      1. BalanceofThemis*

        They can take time because they have people who can cover their responsibilities, I do not. Someone was supposed to be hired that I would supervise, and could cover my programs, but it keeps getting put off.

        1. WhimsicalWhale*

          If they’ve decided they don’t need to hire someone to cover your responsibilities, they’ve either decided you don’t get to use your vacation time or some of your stuff gets dropped when you take a vacation. My advice is very dependent on the sort of organization it is and how much you value your job and how much the organization values you, but I would simply schedule a vacation and start making arrangements for the balls to fall when you’re gone. If someone pushes back, you can point out how long it has been since you’ve had a vacation and how long it will be until the programming schedule calms down. (I don’t have a problem forcing issues, if you can’t tell)

          1. BalanceofThemis*

            Balls aren’t allowed to fall, and I need my job, at least until I can find a different one.

          2. BalanceofThemis*

            Unfortunately they can point to my taking a couple days in the spring for a wedding, but that wasn’t a vacation so much as a visit to the 7th circle of Hell.

            1. pancakes*

              At the very least, don’t do that again. Use the precious and infrequent time off you get for your own needs, not for trying to meet the expectations of people who’ll make you miserable.

              It doesn’t seem accurate to say balls aren’t allowed to fall in this workplace. They seem to be allowed to fall on you repeatedly. It’s just that you don’t have anyone else you can let them fall on in turn, nor an exit plan yet. Please work on one!

              In the meantime, it seems likely that someone else would indeed have to try to catch balls in your absence. Whether they do or don’t succeed at that needn’t be on your mind while you’re not there. If there’s a pile-up when you get back you can work through it the same way you already work through your unsustainable workload: To the best of your abilities within the time available. You can’t do more than that.

        2. Lady_Lessa*

          What would happen if you and your car were in an accident with a deer, and you were out of work because of your (minor, but painful) injuries?

        3. Hen in a Windstorm*

          Sounds like boss needs to step in and do that job so you can get a break. They are the one who put it off, so they are the one to take that hit. You shouldn’t take it.

          Think of it this way: if your burnout leads to illness, you’ll be out anyway. Might as well plan for it and control it.

          1. BalanceofThemis*

            My boss didn’t put it off, her bosses did. She wanted to hire at the beginning of the year, but the upper levels kept putting it off.

            1. ThatGirl*

              Enlist your boss’ help. See if you can cross-train her or someone else to cover the most essential parts of your job so you can get a break. It’s either you schedule a break for yourself, or your body will schedule one for you.

        4. Sherm*

          That’s their problem, not yours. They can’t just give you PTO as part of your compensation and then say “but you can’t use it because we’ve failed to hire someone.” Couldn’t your boss cover for you?

          1. BalanceofThemis*

            For some of it yes. The program that is a big sticking point is a weekly weekend program that I oversee, but is supposed to be facilitated by a volunteer. Unfortunately, we are short on volunteers, and the ones we have aren’t always available, or get sick, and then I have to cover it. And it cannot be canceled, I asked about that once and got my head bitten off. We DO NOT cancel programs.

            1. Shirley Keeldar*

              It sounds to me like your workplace has told you (explicitly or implicitly) that you’re not allowed significant time off, and you’ve internalized that pretty hard. But as a lot of people here are pointing out, that’s not okay! If your workplace held onto your paycheck because you’re so gosh-darned important to the company that they couldn’t pay you, you’d be outraged. We’re all pretty outraged that you’re not being allowed to use an important piece of your compensation.

              “Boss, I haven’t been able to have a real break from work for X months and I’m starting to burn out. I’m afraid I won’t be able to give our clients my best if this continues. My vacation time is part of my compensation and I really need to be able to use it. I’d like to sit down with you this week and put some vacation on the calendar.”

              Good luck, we’re rooting for you!

              1. Mid*

                I would use stronger language. It’s not a request to use vacation time, you’re informing them that you are indeed taking this time, and you are being generous enough to offer them some say in the timing.

                “Boss, I haven’t been able to take a break from work for X months and I’m starting to burn out. I will not be able to give clients my best if this continues. I’d like to sit down with you this week so you can figure out coverage for the time I’ll be off.” It’s their job to figure it out, and their job to make sure teams are properly staffed. I know it isn’t the direct boss but one level up that is preventing a new person being hired, but that’s only because Balance has made it possible to do that. Balls need to drop so they’ll finally be motivated to properly staff the events team.

    3. Mid*

      I empathize with you. I ended up taking an unexpected LOA from work for multiple months because my mental health deteriorated severely. I felt like I couldn’t take any time off because, like you, there is no coverage for my role when I’m out. I kept putting off taking a break, until I literally couldn’t anymore. And then I didn’t have time to plan or work on getting coverage, I told them on a Wednesday that I would not be coming in for the foreseeable future and I’d be in touch in two weeks about a more concrete timeline. And, my job made it work. The world didn’t end. I know we’re in different roles and different lines of work (I don’t do programming/events), but if you were abducted by aliens tomorrow, they’d find a way to make things work.

      If you don’t prioritize taking a break, you won’t be able to do your job at all. It’s difficult, I really do understand that, and the guilt, and people telling you you “just can’t do that.” But, the fact is, **you can**, and you must, because your wellbeing is far more important than any job.

      If they have to cancel programs, then maybe they’ll finally hire the help they need. Because right now, you are harming yourself to cover for your job’s unwillingness to properly staff their teams. That is not okay. And, more importantly, it is NOT your fault or responsibility. If they CHOOSE to not hire people, then they are choosing to run the risk of not having all their planned events happening.

      You need to tell your boss that you need a break, for at least X amount of days, in Y timeframe (THIS YEAR, as soon as possible), and that it is non-negotiable. Starting on Z date, you will be out of the office and fully unreachable. Do not bend on this. They might be upset with you, but again, it is not your fault they are choosing to understaff their programs and you are a human being who needs rest. Everyone does. Everyone is entitled to take their leave of work, and that includes you. If your boss’s boss doesn’t want to hire someone, then they can step up and cover your time off. Do not agree to answer your phone or email on your break. Write instructions/guidance for someone to cover your work, and then disconnect. Do not be guilt tripped into solving problems that you did not create.

      Because, speaking from personal and very recent experience, once you hit full burn out, you will not be able to work, and they will be in a far worse situation than if you took your allotted leave. You are giving them advanced notice and time to prepare for your absence, and they will figure it out.

    4. Silverose*

      If you’re that close to melting down, go see your doctor to ask about taking a medical leave of absence. Not sure if you’re in the US or elsewhere, but in the US, you can use PTO and FMLA simultaneously to cover medical leave until you run out, then when PTO runs out use short term disability then long term disability. If your employer won’t grant a vacation to prevent burnout, then they are stuck with mandatory medical leave to treat the burnout.

    5. allathian*

      Consider what would happen if you had a nervous breakdown and had to be hospitalized? That’s what can happen with severe burnout.

  20. Pilot's Error*

    To keep this concise… my boss recently left. I am picking up some of the slack. I am not enjoying my experience of enhanced leadership. (I had been managing a small team before, which I also wasn’t in love with, but these new responsibilities have put me in front of our leadership). I’ve been told I’m doing great. I’ve been told that I’ve remained calm and even. That’s all great, except… internally/mentally – I’m a hot mess. Everything I’ve read says I need to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. And to be honest, I don’t see how I will ever be able to accomplish that. My fear of failure is way too great and my need for validation (that rarely eases my mind for more than a day or two) is too strong.

    I’m looking for jobs. But, I don’t want to take something as a knee-jerk response to the emotional distress I’m feeling. At some point, they’ll hire someone else and perhaps things will slide back to my comfort zone and I can look for something that’s more my speed and good for me, rather than just something that’s good for now.

    But how do I navigate the anxious hell I’m in now and will probably be in for the next few months? (FYI – I am in therapy and also recently started taking Ashwaghanda)

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Is there anyone else who can pick up the leadership slack? Your boss’s boss? One of your coworkers on your team?

      I think this is a conversation to have with your boss’s boss. “I’ve heard some positive feedback on how I’ve been stepping up to fill in [boss’s] role, but I want to be honest with you that I don’t enjoy the leadership responsibility. Is there anyone we can transition these duties to over the next couple of weeks, so I am not the one managing [team] until we hire someone new for the role?”

      1. ronda*

        or are there parts of the role you can do until new hire and parts you can’t.

        ie.
        I will be team lead for the staff, but not able to attend management/ executive meeting. (with boss’s boss doing that part)

    2. Anastatia Beaverhousen*

      Is there is difference between what work thinks is “good work” and what you think is “good work”? Sometimes knowing that you are meeting expectations helps (think “yeah I hit the benchmark”). If you can identify if there are discrepancies in what you think you need to do versus what you actually need to do this may help. Try looking at the job description for what you are covering and get feedback from those above you.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I second advice about reframing what success looks like, as much as possible. The hardest thing about mangaging is figuring out how much of your time should be spent on the business of managing rather than your work for the team (whether that’s writing memos, individual contribution work or reviewing work generated by your staff).

      I don’t know how long you were managing your small team, but since you have a different role get as much clarity as possible from your boss and especially your peers about what that ratio looks like for them, which will help you to calibrate. Your might feel you did almost nothing one day but if you had productive conversations with team members about their work, or took half an hour to approve expense claims or even managed to promote your team’s work to the leadership team since you’re in front of them more, that is often an example of a really great day’s work.

      I cannot emphasize enough that reaching out to other managers at your level accomplishes a lot here. Start with something small: a gut check on how a meeting you were both in went, or “have you ever had a problem with TPS sign-off?” and start to build a rapport. It helps.

      This isn’t actionable but to the extent it makes you feel less alone … my first 3 months as a new manager at a new organization I was anxious constantly and struggling for validation because I didn’t have good metrics for my performance yet, so I never knew if what I was doing was a C or a B or an A level. It was absolutely exhausting but it did get better. When I look back I see I was on the right track from the beginning and could have set more boundaries for myself so I didn’t feel “always on.” To the extent you can do the same it will help. Take your lunch break and don’t read work emails at that time. Go for a walk around the block if you’re feeling overwhelmed.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Navigating anxious hell:
      Tell yourself it’s temporary.
      Advocate for yourself, “Hey Big Boss I wanted to tell you that this Boss Job is just not for me.”
      Ask if a peer can “co-boss” with you.
      Ask for a temporary raise, that alone can make them back off- this is a know your employer thing.
      Ask for a deadline for this temporary position- so you know when the end is.
      Tell your boss you need a mentor to talk with.
      Can you and your big boss divide up the workload differently- where you off load the really nerve-wracking stuff on to him?

      Other than that I strongly recommend high levels of self-care, whole foods, hydration and rest. A stressed mind means a stressed body. Fortify your body, strengthen your mind in turn.

      FWIW, no one is going to like any job if they are just thrown into it with no prep for it, regardless if it’s management or not. Keep reading here for general knowledge that may help in some way.

  21. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    “I am finding that I can’t devote the time and energy to the position that I think the organization deserves.”

    The **reason** that’s true is because you don’t like it. But nobody has to know that.

  22. Student Affairs Sally*

    I work in higher education, for a large university system in the midwest. I am not at the flagship campus, but a smaller satellite campus. I’ve been here just over 6 months and have had overall a great experience – this has been my favorite job of my career so far. But now the system is considering shifting our PTO model from having multiple “buckets” (vacation, sick time, and personal days) with a significant amount of rollover, to a one-bucket model that gives us overall 2 weeks less PTO and limits our rollover to 10 days a year. The “advantage” is that they are looking to offer short-term disability (which only pays out 60% of your salary – I can’t afford to live on 60% of my salary, I can barely afford to live on 100%) and parental/caregiver leave (I don’t plan on having children and my parents are already deceased). I support adding short-term disability and parental leave, but I DON’T support taking away 10 of my days off in order to do it. The thing that makes me the most angry is that the way they’re going about this is very untransparent – the email they sent announcing the proposal buried the information that we would actually be losing 2 weeks of PTO behind two different links and you had to scroll through a 130 page PDF document to find it. They were originally going to hold “listening sessions” for each individual campus, but instead they are holding system-wide Zoom “information sessions” DURING THE FIRST WEEK OF CLASS. Basically they are hoping to squeak this in under everyone’s notice and I am FURIOUS. The only reason I know as much as I do is because one of my colleagues is on a committee about benefits for our campus.

    So my question is, if this ends up passing (which seems almost inevitable at this point), should I consider job searching already? I was at my last job for just over a year because it was a toxic nightmare. Job before that was 5 years and was my first professional role in higher ed. My salary is not high – it’s education, after all – but it’s pretty good for my specific niche and level of experience. My health insurance is okay but not great. The current PTO system is pretty much the only benefit that is competitive. I am very very good at my job. I’m just so frustrated with the lack of transparency and underhandedness of the way they’re doing this, on top of losing some of my really valuable days.

    1. AnotherSarah*

      No advice on job searching, but this is so frustrating, as it will pit parents against non-parents, deflecting attention from the administrators who made the change. Any chance of group pushback, informal organizing, etc.?

      1. Overeducated*

        I’m not sure it will – for parents of babies and small kids, 10 days a year of PTO is hugely important for covering sick days and closures. Huge. The first 3-6 months is just a small part of what it takes to raise a kid, and making it an either-or is a move I think a lot of parents would take issue with.

    2. time to apply*

      Yeah, that’s one of the reasons I am leaving my current job. When I started, we had a very normal 12 days vacation, 12 days sick, and no need to use time off for anything less than half a day. Then a year in, it switched to 15 days PTO total and a need to use that for any time out of office. Not cool. Benefits are a huge part of the job and 15 days is barely enough for me to cover the days my kid’s school is closed, let alone have a vacation or a sick day. See ya later alligators!

    3. Mazey's Mom*

      I work in higher education as well, also in a niche area, and in this climate, I don’t think it hurts to at least see what else is out there. We’ve had a significant number of people move from one unit to another in order to get a bump in salary, if not an actual promotion, because some areas just don’t realize what it takes to keep a good employee there. Would it be worth it to go back to your supervisor and negotiate for those extra days back (along with a nice raise) in order for them to keep you where you are?

    5. Lady_Lessa*

      YES ! (to the job hunting).

      I am sure that the powers that be knew what they were doing.

      Good luck in finding something

    6. Gracely*

      I’d job search. That’s way too much PTO to just hack off of people’s benefits and expect no pushback. They know exactly what they’re doing, and it sucks. And they know it sucks.

      That committee’s members need to be sounding the alarm. This is the kind of thing that everyone needs to know about.

    7. Manchmal*

      Why don’t you make some noise about this? If you’re considering leaving, it seems like there’s no harm in doing it. Talk to some colleagues, go en masse to that listening session, and raise a stink. If you get enough supporters making noise, writing letters, etc they may very well not go forward with it. I feel like higher ed is one place where doing this is more acceptable than the corporate world.

    8. CatCat*

      You could start job searching and also start spreading the word about the new benefit plan taking away 10 days of PTO. Sounds like they’re so far being very successful about keeping this under the radar (I mean… it’s weird, because like employees are never going to find out?)

      You don’t even have to personally organize people if that’s out of your comfort zone. Just get the word out. Post flyers in staff areas, for example with a short and simple message in big letters.

    9. Hanani*

      It doesn’t hurt anything to job search, even just to know what else is out there and be able to say to yourself “this situation sucks, but I’m choosing to stay here because it’s better than alternatives x and y”.

      Does your university have a union? Even if you’re not in a union, they may be people who are and the union may have more to say about this kind of switch.

      I don’t know how much of a fuss you want to make/risk you want to take, but talking to colleagues, your boss, ombudsperson, etc might all be ways to start to push back as a group.

    10. Anon for this*

      Absolutely yes to the job searching, but is there a campus electronic bulletin board or paper where you can outline this for others,? Or perhaps inform a couple of the loudest staff members? If people learn about it and protest it may not pass, or at least the administration may take another look.

    11. Mabelline*

      Job hunt. Job hunt NOW. Higher ed is hemorrhaging good employees and schools across the country are desperate to hire before Fall semester starts. That’s a tight timeline since it’s the end of July, but it’s feasible and the further we get into August, the more departments need help. Additionally, since many fiscal years begin September 1, you might be able to find a new position created from the upcoming fiscal year’s funds.
      Also, if you do find a new position and leave, make it as clear as possible the role that the PTO change played in your decision. You don’t have to burn bridges, but you should make sure that as many higher-ups as you can find are aware of the negative impact this is having on employee retention.

    12. BEC*

      That’s a “reply all” and say “I’m concerned we won’t have time during a Zoom call during the first week of class to give the loss of 10 days of annual PTO the discussion and focus it deserves. Are there other planned forums to be able to provide this feeeback?”

    13. M.*

      You’re always “allowed” to job hunt if something about the position, office, or industry isn’t working for you. I started my new job on a different team (also in higher ed) earlier in the year, and—quite frankly—I don’t love it. I did very well on my performance review and I genuinely enjoy the team, but enough time has passed that I really don’t think this is for me. So, yes, I’m looking now too!

    14. In your boat*

      Same boat as you. Most likely the same job system. It really shows that we are not as important as money. If you’ve only been “here” 6 months I say look around. Lots of great jobs out there.

  23. snowyowl*

    Hello everyone,

    I’m looking to leave my current job because I’d like to move closer to friends/family halfway across the country, and because my current boss is very toxic and it’s starting to seriously affect me mentally and emotionally. So far I haven’t been having a ton of luck with my job search — my skill set is very specialized, and unfortunately halfway across the country doesn’t have programs like the ones where I am. I am only about five years into the working world, and 100% willing to switch gears/do something tangentially related. However, I think I’m encountering 2 problems: jobs not wanting to hire someone from out of state and that I have a high level position here but don’t necessarily have skills outside of this area for a high level position (yet) elsewhere. I have been applying to positions where I could learn, and where I can explain how the experience I do have would be a boon — but still kind of mid level stuff.

    Recently I was approached by someone else in the state, in the field, saying that because my reputation is excellent they’d love to hire me to fill a role that opened up with them — this would be an improvement from my current job in a lot of ways (less toxic boss for one). That’s obviously been helpful for me mentally, however, I mentioned it to my family and they were very supportive of me taking it to get away from my current situation, but I really want to be moving out of this state and into a slightly different field. I would feel guilty if I took the new job and continued to job hunt, so I just don’t know what to do.

    Any and all advice would be very much appreciated, thank.

    1. Miette*

      Is it at all possible to do this potential new gig remotely? Perhaps if you are transparent with them that you’re interested in relocating, they’ll make it a remote job.

      And on the topic of applying to jobs from out of state: if you can state a date for your relocation in your cover letter/resume, they may be more open to reviewing your materials. At least that’s the advice I see Alison give for folks looking to move.

      1. snowyowl*

        Unfortunately my current field is considered an emergency/essential service, we haven’t gone remote at all during the pandemic. So there’s zero chance of doing it remotely.

        I have started saying “I will be relocating” instead of “I want to be relocating”, but I can’t afford to actually relocate without a job (I don’t need them to pay moving expenses, I just need to be able to make money once I’m there) so I’ve hesitated on putting an actual date on it. Especially because I’m applying to places that have a tendency to have a very slow hiring process. (I know people in similar roles, and one of them from application to job offer took over six months).

        Thank you!

        1. Ghost Bear*

          I would just say the vague timeline that you hope to move by. “I am planning to relocate to Target Area this fall, although my timeline is flexible.” Moving/relocation timelines are often not set in stone anyway.

    2. Hen in a Windstorm*

      Step 1, stop telling yourself you’re trapped.
      Step 2, take the new job! That’s an awesome opportunity.
      Step 3, once you are in a non-toxic environment, you will be able to think clearly about plans for the future.

      Job searches can take a long time, especially out of state. So unless you’re planning to up stakes and move without a job, you may be at the new job for a year anyway. But that’s all in the future. Control the present and worry about the future when it arrives.

      1. snowyowl*

        1. Thank you, I’ll try to remember.
        2. It is on paper, it should be doing about what I’m doing currently but at a larger location (I currently have 5 direct reports, this would give me 15 direct reports). I am a little worried it looks so good just because it’s “not here”.
        3. True!

        Thank you!

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Earlier this year, I accepted a job halfway across the country from where I was so I could move closer to friends/family. As Miette says, if you are not doing this already, put a sentence or two in your cover letter that you are planning to move to [state]. I put a short paragraph in my cover letters that said something along the lines of “I grew up in [state] and I am looking to move back there to be closer to my family.”

      As for taking this offer in your current state, the questions to ask yourself are:
      – how much would moving out of the toxic job benefit your mental health?
      – will you have the energy to start a new job and continue job-searching? if not, are you OK delaying the job-search near friends/family for a month or two?
      – are you OK burning the bridge with the non-toxic employer if you left after a short period of time? will burning a bridge with a company in your current state affect any job prospects in your future location?

      1. snowyowl*

        There are about six states that I’d be willing to move to — because they’re within driving distance of family/very close friends. I already tailor all my cover letters, but so far have just changed it to “I will be relocating back to the x region” do you think having the specific state would be better?

        Thank you for these questions, I’m definitely going to spend some time thinking about them. My mom was excited about the in state job and it’s made it so I can’t actually discuss my concerns with her about it. And I get where she’s coming from, she’s worried about me at the toxic job, but it does make it hard to think about it logically.

        Thank you!

        1. Hlao-roo*

          Specific state might help a little more than X region, especially if the region is big. (“New Hampshire” over “New England” probably doesn’t matter much, but “Indiana” is better than “the Midwest.”)

          One of the worries about out-of-state candidates is that they won’t work out long-term because they’ll realize they don’t like the area, so the more you can ease the hiring mangers concern about that, the better. “Relocating back” is good because it implies you lived there before, and adding “to be closer to family” helps too because it shows you have a support network and a reason to stick around.

          Good luck!

          1. smeep248*

            I understand your point about New England, but even travelling between the states can be prohibitive during commuting hours. CT to Boston, which I did for years, is theoretically very close and only an hour away from each other – except during rush hour when it takes 3 hours. So I think the state would be helpful anywhere.

              1. pancakes*

                Quintessential New England experiences:

                – Boston drivers

                – Cape Cod traffic

                – New Hampshire toll plazas and low-tax booze barns, an important place to stretch your legs whether you’re buying or not

                – the eternal traffic jam around Red’s Eats

                – spending well over 3 hours on what is theoretically (and very occasionally) a 1.5 hr drive from NYC to visit family in CT

  24. Amber Rose*

    My huge, year long project of doom is going live this evening. The last 47 errors were ironed out Wednesday and our support team assures me they’ve tested the release and it should work. I expect the sound of dozens of my coworkers crying out in rage will reach the rest of you sometime Tuesday morning. Monday being a holiday.

    All jokes aside, I feel pretty good about this. There was absolutely no reason for me to believe I could do it. And there were a number of false starts and failed efforts in the first few months, to the point where I thought the whole project might end up being abandoned as impossible. Yet here we are.

    I only wish I was healthy enough to go celebrate. Unfortunately, the flu that I thought I had was covid and after 9 days, shows no signs of letting up.

    1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      First off congratulations on your accomplishment!

      It sucks you have COVID. Maybe if you can taste/eat, ordering some ridiculously indulgent meal would be a way to celebrate?

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Congratulations on a major win! I hope you feel better soon, and when you do, that you have an awesome celebration of your success!

    3. ABK*

      Congratulations on your accomplishment!
      Hope you feel better soon.
      And, so curious, what holiday is on Monday?
      Thanks.

      1. Robin Ellacott*

        It’s a holiday here in Canada – BC Day for me, but I believe other provinces have a day off too. :)

    4. Robin Ellacott*

      Project of Doom is a great phrase.

      I hope you’re well enough to celebrate soon!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      So your project of doom did not “doom”? That’s great!! Congrats on pulling through the long haul there. I hope you feel better soon.

  25. Miette*

    Question for hiring managers: Do you look at potential hires’ social media at all? I was surprised to hear a colleague say this yesterday–they went back as far as 2018! Is this what people actually do now? I literally never do this, but I am a generation removed from my colleague.

    1. bf*

      if a candidate provides it, i’ll take a look but i’ve never done a deep dive. i’m not quite an elder millenial.

    2. Can't think of a funny name*

      I recently hired a couple people and I did not look at their social media but I probably should have only b/c I know my bosses care…I have a direct report that my bosses strongly considered firing a few years ago b/c of something she posted.

    3. Meowsy*

      We are instructed not to, do avoid any potential discoveries that would lead to discriminatory biases. The exception yo that would be a high level, public facing role.

      1. Zee*

        I think that’s a really good policy… pictures with kids, pride flags as cover photos… really easy to bias yourself.

    4. Radical honesty*

      I will absolutely look people up in social media. I don’t go back to 2018, but I definitely see what kinds of things they post.

    5. Millie Mayhem*

      Yes, I typically give it a brief glance (if it’s available/easy to find), but I don’t normally pour through social media and go back years in advance. I’ll give it a harder look if we see any potential red flags pop up.

    6. ope!*

      Depending on the position, I’ll sometimes google them (our field lends to having public resources or conference talks available online sometimes, which I like to see if they’re out there) but I make an effort to avoid social media to avoid any unnecessarily introduced bias.

    7. Sherm*

      No, I don’t. I think the odds are pretty low the candidate would be openly posting something that would alarm me, such as hate speech or pictures indicating non-stop partying. The odds are much higher that I would learn more about the candidate’s ethnicity, age, marital status, orientation, religion, and so on.

      Generally, it would feel like too much of an intrusion for me. I mean, I’m also not going to drive by the candidate’s house to see if there is anything troubling on the lawn.

      1. Schmitt*

        One applicant we had linked his github to his twitter profile. His tagline was “virgin hunter” …

        Don’t underestimate people XD

    8. Miette*

      Thanks to all of you! I thought I was going crazy to be slightly appalled–my colleague (who is a millennial–I am Gen X) behaved as if it’s expected.

      We are both in marketing, so I understand making sure if someone put in charge of social media shows skills in it for their own accounts, but beyond that I rarely look even at LinkedIn.

      1. Gracely*

        I wouldn’t normally bother at all, but in a field like marketing/anything PR, I would check it *after* their initial interview. I wouldn’t try to take a deep dive (nor worry if I couldn’t find anything at all, since some people are private about it), but just make sure they know how to handle themselves appropriately online if they are out there where anyone can see.

        I would do it mainly because I know some people (family/friends) that seem perfectly normal the first time you interact with them, but they post some batsh*t conspiracy/etc. stuff online, and it comes out in person eventually.

    10. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I wouldn’t for an employee. However my husband and I are looking for a house cleaner and I did like each one up. But it’s a bit different because they’ll be in my home. Mostly I was just screening our very vocal COVID deniers.

      But for coworkers, the less I know about them personally the better. Unfortunately once you know your coworker is a die hard Trumper, it’s hard to unknow that, and you still need to maintain a professional relationship.

    12. justme*

      If someone looked at mine they would only see 2 photos and no about information and no friends.

    13. talos*

      I’m not an HM but have done peer interviews – typically I do look at the person’s LinkedIn if I can find it easily, but don’t bother looking for anything else.

    14. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      It seems fair, especially since you note you are in the marketing/PR/communications world where USING social media can be a big part of the job. It’s reasonable for candidates to think you might check out their twitter profile, for example. I wouldn’t say it is a knock against you for not doing it though.

      I’m in a field where people within the field often form twitter communities (think academia or politics) in that not everyone is active, but those who are can be very active. I don’t search social media for candidates as part of my general hiring protocols but I have definitely looked up some people if I knew of them by reputation and wanted another perspective. It seems relevant to me: how they would affect my team dynamic if, for example, they are a raging dick or are quick to assume the worst of others or willfully misunderstand the point in a significant amount of their posts. I would, however be kinder in my assessment to someone starting out/with few work culture norms than someone who’s been working for longer. (FWIW my demographic is elder millennial/young Gen X).

    15. Epsilon Delta*

      The most I do is look them up on LinkedIn. I don’t google them and wouldn’t look at social media.

      If I were hiring for an external facing role like sales or marketing, or a very senior position, anything that would mean clients or the public were likely to google the person, then I would probably consider doing my own google search too.

    16. mreasy*

      I am a “geriatric millennial” and I can’t imagine hiring someone without looking at their social media profiles.

    17. allathian*

      I’m not a hiring manager, and I’m not on any social media except WhatsApp. But I’m in Finland, and here it’s illegal for hiring managers to let a candidate’s social media presence influence the hiring (unless candidate is hired for their social media presence), so they don’t look. They can’t even look at LinkedIn, unless the candidate provides a link without prompting. Hiring managers are also only allowed to use the references provided by the candidate, although many positions (in government even SMEs) require a security check by our equivalent of the CIA.

      Employers can and do look at their employees’ social media once they’re hired, though.

    18. NancyDrew*

      I do, but I work in communications (including social media!) so I want to see what their public presence is like, whether they know how to use the platforms, their public voice, etc.

  26. Alice*

    I just got a 4% raise (no cost of living adjustments at my org, just “merit raises”). Better than no raise for sure. But at the same time, not much compared to my rent increase.
    I’m looking for a new job (btw a metaphorical pox on the houses of hiring managers who ghost you after interviews) but in the meantime the management team here expects me to be grateful that they went to bat to get me 4%.
    It’s not that I’m not grateful but come on, this raise isn’t a personal favor.
    How can I generate or feign a positive attitude in this context? (I honestly don’t care which)
    Thanks

    1. Hen in a Windstorm*

      If you’ve said “thank you, I appreciate it”, what more do they want? I mean, it *is* better than nothing, and you do want to appear polite, so treat it like getting a so-so birthday gift.

    2. Phantom*

      Honestly… you don’t need to fake happy at all! If you feel comfortable, reach out and give the feedback that while the increase is appreciated, it is not taking into account increased COL, etc. Also sounds like your org might be suffering the same issue as mine, where there does not seem to be any real compensation planning/philosophy at all. Is performance looked at? Is everyone given a flat amount regardless? Are people paid higher for important skills? We are working on getting our compensation in order, and getting feedback about how raises are not good enough has helped to drive us to this.

    3. BEC*

      “Thanks a lot. My rent increased by 15% last year, so a 4% raise helps with some of that pain”

    4. M.*

      No advice, just commiseration: we received 4% this year, too, and while it’s something I guess, it’s really just a paltry amount of money more in my paycheck (as in, less than $100/month). It really irks me, especially since they’re making a big deal about it, and I’m starting to look now too.

  27. keira*

    I’m looking for some advice on adjust my mindset for job hunting after being out of the game for so long. I’m about to finish up maternity leave for a company I’ve been with for over 12 years. The work/life balance is phenomenal and the degree of flexibility will be hard to beat. But, the pay isn’t great (I’m actually making less than I was 5 years ago after adjusting for inflation), nothing that I’m doing is being recognized, and there’s lot of reorganization at the top that is going backward from where I’d prefer (and from where we had been planning prior to this year). It’s hard to see myself anywhere else. I’m kind of a back-office jack of all trades focused on HR & IT for a small company (less than 50 staff). I have a lot of transferable skills, but they all came while at this company and are in the context of what the company needed. So I have gaps from catering to the executives here and their needs (or lack thereof). I’m finding it really hard to shift my thought process from what my current company needs to what a job description asks for. Any advice?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      The steps I would take if I were in your shoes are:
      – decide if you want to focus on applying to HR or IT jobs (or jobs in one of you other jack-of-all-trades areas)
      – look up job descriptions for [HR/IT/other] on a site like Indeed
      – read through the description line by line and think of an example of when you have done [task] in your career

      You might have to stretch some of your examples a bit, and some examples might be from that one time three years ago that you did X, but going through a couple of job descriptions like this should show you that (1) you have transferable skills and (2) how your experiences at you current job can translate to being successful at a new job.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I wrote a master resume. I never send it to anyone.

      When I apply, I open up my master resume and start deleting the parts that are irrelevant to the specific job I am applying for. When I am done, I save it as “company name dot dox [pdf]”.

      The master resume can help you list off all that you have done. You can do little clusters of similar activities if you like. But this nails things down so you are not starting at square one with each application.

  28. crookedglasses*

    What are good resources for finding a job coach / mentor? I work in People Operations for a small non-profit. I’ve currently got one employee actively looking for a coach, and I can easily imagine this need coming up in the future. I’d love to find an agency or organization that can be a go-to for partnering on this kind of thing so we aren’t trying to continually assess and vet coaches on a one-off basis. Any best practices or strategies people have found? Thank you!

    1. irene adler*

      Professional organizations often offer mentoring or similar programs. Some have more formal programs than others. Pays to ask. There may even be someone who knows the industry and is willing to mentor /coach on an informal basis.
      Also, professional organizations know the names of the recruiters who are familiar with the industry. Not sure if all recruiters would be interested in coaching, but they might be up for offering job search advice.

  29. bf*

    Can someone confirm I am overthinking this??

    I am attending two conferences overseas that have a few days off in between them, which I would use as “WFH” days. I have one day actually off and want to use PTO for a consecutive day (not a conference day) to take a quick trip to another city. For some reason, I feel guilty not staying in the hotel that is paid for by the business for one night??? Even thought I’ll be using PTO and my own money for this additional travel. For reference, I am director-level at a small business and have a great relationship with my boss (the owner). Thanks!!

    1. ThursdaysGeek*

      If the company is paying for you to go to two conferences, they would likely not expect to fly you home and then back again for the second. So they are expecting to pay for that hotel in the meantime. It’s fine.

    2. ope!*

      You’re probably overthinking it! Some organizations have policies on “leisure travel” attached to work travel (and are, in most cases, policies that clarify that it is acceptable) if you’d like to try to look it up to confirm.

    3. Hen in a Windstorm*

      Did the company get a discount for a multi-night booking? I’ve paid for a hotel room for nights I wasn’t going to be there for exactly this reason. It was cheaper to book 5 nights in X city and spend an overnight in Y city than booking 2 nights and 2 nights.

      You can always pay for that night out of your own pocket to reimburse the company if you feel that strongly about it.

    5. FalsePositive*

      Sounds okay to me — it would be a bigger pain for them to do two separate stays. And you presumably might leave stuff in the room that you don’t need for your day trip, so easier for “business you.”

      But I understand, I was on a long term stay (3 weeks) and took a weekend away to another location (on my own dime) and had a moment where I felt weird that I was “wasting” the business booked hotel. But it would have made zero sense to checkout/checkin and probably a paperwork nightmare.

    6. Office Gumby*

      You’re overthinking it.

      If you’re taking off for a daytrip/personal holiday, you’re not going to want to haul around ALL your stuff. You’ll be taking a small overnight bag. That extra night at your base hotel isn’t the company paying for a place for you to sleep, it’s paying for a place to store your stuff. Nothing says you have to physically be there overnight.

  30. Odge*

    Request for recommendations: Are there headphones out there that are good at blocking human voices *and* comfy enough to wear for most of the day? Preferably wired versions. I work in a cube farm and on bad days it’s really hard for me to focus when people are chatting. It seems like a lot of headphones make a point to allow human voices through, but that’s what I don’t want! And I’d rather not have to crank my music higher to cover it.

    (People being able to get my attention isn’t an issue because I have line of sight if someone’s approaching my desk.)

    1. Alice*

      I can wear the Bose Quiet Comfort series, giant over the ear ones, for a whole day. Pretty good noise canceling too. They have Bluetooth but you can also plug in to an audio jack.

    2. Princess Xena*

      I don’t have a specific item to recommend, beyond the fact that Bose is really good, but would suggest looking at headphones marketed towards the audio design crowd. A lot of their over-ear stuff is specifically marketing as isolating from outside noise.

      Noise cancelling headphones aren’t terrible but they’re mostly good for repetitive noise, which human speech is not.

      2. Foley*

        2d this. I have some Sony headphones (not with me, so I can’t look up the model number), that I bought for podcasting years ago. They eliminate voices. The firs podcast I recorded was in a bar, and I needed to hear the mic only – not the chatter. I wear the Sony far more often than the Bose QC. I do prefer the Bose wired (10 years + – need new earcups every 2) over the Bluetooth but have both for convenience.

    3. Gatomon*

      I’m a fan of the Sony WH-1000XM_ series. Like the Bose QuietComfort, they are Bluetooth but have a headphone jack. You’ll lose some features without Bluetooth, I want to say the earcup controls don’t work. But the ANC should. They’re comfortable enough for all day even on top of glasses. The XM4 is the older version that you should be able to get for $278 or less. I think the newest is XM5 but the older ones are perfectly good. Expensive, but there are similar options for ANC headphones from brands like Anker that may compare well.

    4. Henry Division*

      I’m an audio editor and I wear either my Sony MDR-7506 or Beyerdynamic DT700 the entire day with few issues of comfort – and I have multiple ear piercings. I absolutely cannot hear anyone who is talking to me while I’m working, for better or for worse.

      1. Foley*

        Oh! These are the Sony ones I have! Also way less expensive than Bose. Have had to replace these earpiece as well, though – once or twice in the last decade.

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      My Cowin E7s are mighty comfie, as long as I avoid certain earrings. However be aware that at least back when I ordered them, there were normal and noise-cancelling versions of the same line.
      (My mis-order was serendipitous because I had both versions at once when we all went remote for Covid. No scrambling for headphones for the remote-school student.)

    6. Raboot*

      Re: allowing human voices through, if there’s a model you like otherwise, check if it’s just an option, not always on. Like my bose headphones have a mode where they in theory filter out “background” noise while letting things like speech through, but it’s not the only mode they have, I only use them with normal noise cancelling.

  31. Meowsy*

    Should I push my former boss for an exit interview?

    I am on my last day in a department where I hold a leadership position. I accepted an internal transfer that’s both a promotion and significant pay raise. When I gave notice 5.5 weeks ago, my boss was very gracious in his response and also stated he wanted to do an exit interview before I left. He never brought it up again.

    The thing is, our department is a newer one and has high turnover. I definitely have some feedback for my boss on how to keep that from happening and to make the department a much less frustrating place to work. The remaining staff are pressing me to follow up with the department head to do the exit interview even after I leave.

    Should I reach out to him and tell him I’d still like/be willing to have the exit interview? Or just let it go?

    1. ABC*

      Do you think this boss will actually act on any of the feedback you provide? It doesn’t even seem like they care much about what you would have to say. Not to mention that if they wanted to address turnover, they could ask the people who are still there what issues they see.

      I learned my lesson not to be honest in exit interviews. It will very, very rarely make any sort of difference. And it may color your reference, and your reputation in the company overall since you are staying around.

      1. irene adler*

        Yes- don’t let the final impression of you be the exit interview where you aired the ‘dirty laundry’.

        If boss wants this interview, boss will find the time and seek you out. In which case, why did boss wait until you gave notice to have an interest in ‘what’s going on’ with things? If there is a genuine interest to learn about the issues you are seeing, you’d be asked about things regardless of whether you gave notice.

      2. soontoberetired*

        All the people I know who have done exit interviews feel the way ABC does – no one really believed what they were saying. I did one after leaving a group and I do know my views were discounted. There seems to be a bias that if you are leaving, you are an issue, not that they may have issues.

          1. Meowsy*

            You’re right, you’re right, I know you’re right (name that movie!).

            Part of the reason I’m leaving is because he didn’t consult with me on things he should have while I was here…so… not exactly sure why it would make any difference now.

            My team is emotionally needy so I was letting that get to me (as in, they are totally the type of people who would ask me if I was mad if I didn’t wish them a happy birthday).

            Thank you for the Sanity Backup!

  32. double super secret anon*

    Let’s talk euphemistic language for layoffs! There are classics like “right-sized” but recently I’ve come across some new (and incredibly passive) ones:
    “They have been exited from the company”
    “We are unable to offer them continuing employment”
    Team members “affected by this action”

    Have some respect. Just say they’ve been laid off. What have you heard?

    2. Ginger Pet Lady*

      “Released” as in “We released Jenna last week as part of our efforts to become leaner and more effective. Her duties will now be covered by Ty. Please be patient with Ty as he learns these new duties and integrates them with his existing role.”

    7. snowyowl*

      “Abandoned” as in “Eric abandoned us”.

      Also: “Sarah is no longer with is” (DID SHE DIE?)

  33. Odge*

    If commenter Beka Cooper is around today: you had posted on last week’s open thread about RSI issues with mouse use. I didn’t see it in time to reply there, but you are exactly where I was 4 years ago, so I wanted to weigh in with my experience in case it’s helpful!

    I’m also a knitter and use the mouse heavily for work. I started experiencing symptoms similar to yours that steadily got worse until I was in constant pain. My primary care doctor told me to try not to use my hand, use ice, and keep my arm/elbow straight when I could. I believe this was the right move at first, but doing that for too long led me to get weaker, which made me more prone to RSI, and overusing my non-dominant hand gave me symptoms there too. A vicious cycle! (I also empathize with feeling dismissed by the doctor… I had to go back and say hey, this is hugely impacting my quality of life and I need a solution, what is your recommendation? Multiple times.)

    What eventually helped, as other commenters mentioned in the thread, was dedicated physical therapy and strengthening exercises. I had a combination of tennis elbow symptoms and RSI in my hands/fingers. So I had to rebuild shoulder strength, tolerance for weight bearing on my wrists, and wrist strength. As I got stronger, it was also helpful to add in different types of activities and to do things I’d been avoiding. This has managed my pain really well and I have days with no pain for the first time in years.

    I recommend seeing a specialist (hand/elbow orthopedist) to confirm, getting into PT, and temporarily pausing hand hobbies to use your spoons on building strength. It sucks so bad to stop knitting, but it’s going to help in the long run! Good luck!

  34. Re'lar Fela*

    I’ve shared on a few Friday open threads about my struggles with ADHD at work and my PIP (which I’ve been off of since late May *insert party hat celebrating emoji here*).

    Well–I took all of the advice, commiseration, and kind words to heart and I’m so happy to say that things are MUCH better now. I’m learning (with the help of my fantastic therapist) to give myself some grace, I’m using my stellar hyperfocus days to set up systems of success to get through the dragging through molasses days, and my annual performance evaluation (our fiscal year runs July-June, so I just had mine) was INCREDIBLE. There’s still room for improvement, of course, but overall I was highly rated for being a flexible team player who is willing to jump in wherever needed (we’ve had several staff out on intermittent FMLA for family and medical reasons recently and I’ve been working in all areas of the agency as needed to cover–we’re a wraparound services non-profit, so there’s always something that needs doing) and there were multiple comments about my warmth, empathy, and compassion for clients (which is obviously the goal in client-facing positions). And, as an added bonus, there was a note about my willingness to own up to my challenges and seek support from my supervisor as well as a comment about how I’ve taken her feedback and applied it with notable success (<–1,000% thanks to Alison, particularly her how to make your boss love you–or something like that–post from several years ago).

    So yes. Overall, things are going SO WELL right now. I've been reading AAM for a little over a decade now and I attribute any and all success I've had throughout my career to Alison and the excellent commentariat for helping me learn how to think about and address issues in the workplace. Sometimes I long to go back to my early career days as an AmeriCorps VISTA and then Executive Assistant when I had time to participate in the comment section (I was AdminAnon back then), but being busy is always better than being bored so I don't mind too terribly much!

    Anyway, just a super long-winded way of saying THANK YOU! Y'all are the best.

    1. Alice*

      Congrats, this is so wholesome:)
      Can you describe how you leverage your hyperfocus days when you don’t know when they are going to come?

      1. Re'lar Fela*

        Thank you so much!!

        And yes, absolutely. On my molasses days, I tend to run out of time before I run out of things to do, which causes endless amounts of stress, which starts a whole cycle of unproductive nonsense. On hyperfocus days, I tend to finish my day-to-day work relatively quickly (which leads to the aforementioned time to pitch in around the agency). A lot of my actual job is very process and detail oriented, which I love but often struggle with due to memory/lack of focus issues.

        On my hyperfocus days, I make notes throughout the day of things I have to pause and look up or double-check or end up going back to correct. Then, at the end of the day, I either create or edit a process flow for that specific task. Those all live in a single document with a hyperlinked index. So instead of getting stuck on my molasses days, I have the information that I need at my fingertips in a way that I understand quickly and easily because I created it. That has drastically reduced the perfectionism/procrastination drag on days when I’m already struggling.

        That’s just one example, but probably the easiest to describe. The rest is essentially more of the same. I use the momentum, energy, and focus on those days to put systems in place that keep me organized and moving forward on the hard days. For instance, one thing I did recently was inspired by my college retail job–we had a list of “minute to win it” tasks that we could do if we had a free minute but which weren’t critical to the day-to-day operation. I recently made a list of very simple, low brain power tasks that take an average of 10-20 minutes and which are not mission critical, but which make life easier–cleaning up files, checking the status of non-critical long-term projects, unrequired but helpful data entry, etc. Things that I can do with good music playing and which keep me productive without getting overwhelmed and shutting down/browsing social media.

        Apologies for the long-winded response!! I’m not sure if I even answered your question, but hopefully it’s helpful in some way.

  35. CreepyPaper*

    This happened many jobs ago so I was far younger, but I randomly thought about it and would like the AAM take on it.

    Timeline and context: 2003, I was 22 years old, working as a very junior office admin in a mortgage department for a bank. It was only a temp contract, I was treated pretty poorly and did a lot of menial tasks, but hey, it was walking distance from home and it was an income while I searched for logistics jobs.

    It was audit time, and the auditor was sitting talking within my earshot to one of the mortgage administrators, not one of the advisors who were more senior. Now in this office, the mortgage administrators did a lot, but the advisors should have processed the actual mortgage applications. I say should have because quite often they’d palm it off onto their administrators because they were ‘too busy’.

    I heard the admin say something to the auditor along the lines of ‘oh yes, the advisors always process all the applications themselves, we just assist with the administration side’ and the auditor said ‘good because sometimes administrators process the applications, and that’s not allowed.’

    When the auditor left I remember thinking ‘but the admins do the applications often, is that really not allowed?’

    So should I have said anything? I did hear one of the admins flat out lie to an auditor after all, but looking back I think I was far too junior and inexperienced to say anything at all. If this happened today, would you encourage a junior member of staff to speak up?

    Thoughts?

    1. Can't think of a funny name*

      Typically when I hear the term “processed” I think entry level work so I wonder if the admins did the work but then the advisor reviewed it. I think you were right to not jump in. And if that step is important, the auditor is going to do more than just ask one person.

    2. Bullied employee*

      Having been peripherally involved with the mortgage industry in that era, my first thought was actually: The mortgage department at a bank in June 2003. Hoo boy. It was absolute chaos that quarter, and especially that month. It seemed like everybody on planet Earth was refinancing. Entire subdivisions were being built before there were any buyers, and then people bought them up. People were just going nuts. The bubble that burst in 2007 was busily inflating. So, I wonder if a lot of things were going on at that specific time that didn’t normally happen. In any case, since you were there on a temp contract, I think you were wise to say nothing.

    3. Princess Xena*

      As an auditor:

      If you had the same situation right now, then it would have been good to let one of the auditors know unobtrusively. We try and talk to a selection of people about security and conflict of interest concerns, but can’t always get everyone.

      But honestly, looking back at the behavior that led to the housing bubble – it probably wouldn’t have made a difference. Way too many people were sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU” to any suggestion that the state of the housing market was unhealthy.

  36. Expectation calibration*

    I have started a new job this year. The job itself turned mostly out as expected. What has only recently come into focus however is the different approaches my colleagues and I have to structuring our work. Our work week usually never ends with a “clean deck”. There is always more to do and second and third tier tasks one might or might not get to at some point. I try to focus my work on the most important tasks while postponing less urgent tasks and do my best to work in a sustainable way overall. I even checked in with internal customers in our company and my team is notorious for its ridiculously fast turn around times. I have been dinged on my last performance review for not showing enough team spirit. That actually means I sometimes leave tasks for a day or even two full days before getting back if there is no deadline in play instead of constantly working overtime. One could probably describe our team overall as insecure overachievers, yes, including myself. I am trying however to get out of that and apparently ended up exactly in the wrong place. My plan is to look for other options both within and outside the company while continuing to work there. I am aware that I am not going to change my team. I am interested in answers from people who encountered similar situations and how you mentally approached the whole thing.

    1. Expectation calibration*

      And yes, thanks to this work approach our team does tend to end up with additional tasks that do not necessarily need to be done by us which in turn leads to more stress and tasks that should be our focus are done last minute. I believe that this need to firefight is part of the emotional appeal of the whole thing unfortunately.

    2. ferrina*

      Ugh, this sounds awful. I’m also in a role where there is always more to do, and if I gave myself artificial turn-around times I would be in a land of constant overtime.

      I really like your approach. It sounds like your internal customers are happy and you have (at least some) work-life balance, which I think is exactly what we should all aim for! If I’m reading this right, your manager is unhappy because you don’t work more overtime to get low priority tasks done. But that’s silly- if those tasks were enough priority for extra hours, then extra resources should be brought in. If there’s ambiguity in the prioritization, that’s for your manager to navigate, not just say “work until you drop and everything’s done!”

      I also think you’re right to look at other opportunities. This kind of culture can’t be changed by one individual contributor. The change needs to come from your manager, and your manager is clearly uninterested in that. You cannot meet your manager’s (unreasonable) expectations and have work-life balance; I think you are doing the right thing in prioritizing sanity.

      tldr; You’re right, you’re doing everything right, and I’m sorry you’re in this situation.

      1. Expectation calibration*

        Thanks ferrina. Yeah, I guess I was kinda expecting that.
        I included the reference to the internal customer, since I can be more candid in asking them for feedback. With external customers I’ll try to aim for similar answer patterns. That has worked well so far except for maybe 1 or 2 times where due to outside factors an issue suddenly became more urgent and I got a really nice request for a status update.
        I am definitely team work-life balance. The others have ridiculous amounts of overtime banked and see no chance of actually using any of it up for some time off. I would like to not reach the same point.

        Funny thing regarding high and low priority: the majority of tasks, no matter objective priority, seems to be treated as “everything needs to be done right now” which means that smaller requests eat up time in aggregate and suddenly we are scrambling thanks to a deadline we really can’t miss.
        I brought up extra resources, but apparently it’s “too early for that” since I am a fairly recent addition still. If we want to keep this pace and not worry about unplanned absences because everybody is overworked and gets sick more often an additional 1-1,5 role would be necessary imo. Or we could prioritize better, drop some balls strategically and live with the fact that we cannot please everyone, but I guess that one was ruled out. *wry*

  37. Anon Today*

    One of my direct reports handles fundraising/do good committee type items for our branch of the company. This really only comes into play during a few months out of the year, which we are in. Yesterday I realized that she and another of my direct reports had spent the whole afternoon working on these committee items together. My issue is that I’m not really okay with the majority of of my team spending these hours on what is essentially extraneous duties. I feel like if my team member Lucy needs help with the fundraising duties, then we should get her help from another department, so ours doesn’t bear such a brunt. My question is how do I handle discussing this with Lucy and Ethel? Ethel is new to the team and Lucy has handled a lot of their training and they work well and often together. (Maybe too often, but that’s another day.) 

    Right now, I’m leaning towards asking Lucy if she feels like this is too much for her to handle on her own and that if she needs assistance, particularly hours worth, I would prefer that we find help from another department, instead of our department bearing the brunt. But for Ethel – how to I tell them don’t help Lucy? Is it really as simple as, check with me before you take on duties that aren’t in your job description? Is it obvious that I don’t mean don’t help Lucy unload donation items from their car? Just don’t spend half of a day in their office planning with them on this project. I’m thinking talking to them separately in this week’s one on one’s but maybe I talk to them together.

    I might be overthinking this, because it just seems like our team dynamics have been a bit strained lately and I can’t figure out why – which makes me think it’s something I’m doing, have done, and I’m stepping cautiously to figure things out and hopefully not make things worse?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      It sounds like Lucy is a bit overworked, and Ethel is helping her because they’re friends? I think you need to identify people who Lucy *should* ask for assistance (answer could be “whoever is least busy”) and if you don’t want the new person doing this because you want Ethel focusing on training, then tell Ethel that. Maybe “for right now, the first six-ish months, I really need you to focus on [the TPS reports] so let someone else help Lucy”.

    2. ferrina*

      Two questions-
      1) Are Lucy and Ethel meeting their benchmarks for their other work?
      2) What does Ethel like doing?

      If Ethel is meeting her deadlines for her other work and really enjoys planning, I’d be hesitant to take this away from her. Even if Lucy is having performance issues, a single brainstorming session is likely not the issue. Obviously Ethel should focus on her main duties first, but if she is able to take on more and wants to do this, why not give her your blessing?

      3) Do you have regular check-ins with your team? If not, I recommend weekly 1:1s with your team members. 15-30 minutes is fine (and honestly half of mine are 20 minutes of socializing then 5 minutes of work- worth it cuz it builds trust and morale). Ask about their deadlines, then ask how they are feeling. How is their bandwidth? “Ethel, I noticed you spent a chunk of time working with Lucy on Friday. I just want to check in since that’s way outside your job description- are you feeling like you have the bandwidth to do this?” “Lucy, I saw you working with Ethel for a chunk of time on Friday. Is everything going okay?”

      1. Anon Today*

        1. I at least have one example where no, a benchmark was not met and the work could have been done by one of them while the other was doing the fundraising work.
        2. Ethel is still in their first six months with us, so it’s a little hard to tell at this point, what they like doing.
        3. I do have regular 1:1’s, but they have not as productive as I want. I’m taking steps to change that, which I explained to the team, but that didn’t seem to go over well either. In all honesty, I’ve felt like I was drowning in this role for awhile because of external projects and tasks, and former team members not pulling their weight. Now I feel like I can finally breathe again and look around, and I’m not loving what I see. I get that I carry responsibility of letting my team form some bad habits, but trying to walk those back is hard!!

        1. ferrina*

          That’s tough. But since benchmarks aren’t getting met, I think you’re on firm ground to say to Ethel, “I need you to prioritize on ABC right now, especially as you’re so new. The goal is to have you doing [what you ultimately want from the role]. If fundraising is something you’re interested in, I’m happy to revisit that in a few months once all benchmarks are being consistently met, but first we need to get ABC completely done.”

          And good for you for having 1:1s and taking steps to make them productive! I’ve found them so valuable, and so many managers don’t do them/don’t do them well.

          1. Anon Today*

            I had a previous boss/mentor at my previous place of work. They’re who introduced me to this site! I try and emulate them in a lot of my managerial decisions. I’m still a newish manager is many ways, and thought I was a decent one. But this position has challenged me and I’ve realized part of why I was a good manager in my first real manager role is because I was so lucky with my team members, departmental support, processes etc.

            Dealing with resentful, sick, absent, bitter, just so new they don’t know better employees in a crazy unstable environment, where I have pretty much ZERO political power or cache, and started in the middle of the pandemic and fly by the seat of your pants WFH – it makes me realize how much I have to go in regards to improving my manager skills.

            1. ferrina*

              So you’re saying you don’t have superhuman managerial skills yet? :) You’re handling a lot! You’re a change agent (of culture) without stable resources, in the middle of a pandemic. I can’t think of anyone who wouldn’t be struggling in a big way.

              Have you told your team what your vision is? That can really help. “Hey team, I know I’ve had to focus a lot on External Projects in the last few months, and now that it’s over, I really want to focus on how I can support you. This is going to include improving processes so that things take less time and you have less busy work, doing trainings, and [Whatever it is you plan to do]. I know this is going to take a while to fully implement, but my goal is to eventually be able to [save time on our documentation/have everyone cross-trained/get X done without any overtime]. As we improve our processes, I’ll be regularly checking in to get feedback on how things are going. If a change isn’t working or needs to be tweaked, I want to know so we can do that!”
              Bonus is that this will set the stage for you 1:1s. You can ask things like “We recently implemented X process. How is that going for you?”

    3. SomebodyElse*

      Sounds like there’s a lot going on besides Lucy and Ethel working on this side project. I’ll start with advice on Lucy and Ethel. It’s ok to to let Ethel know that you need her to focus on her work (especially if she’s not hitting targets and pretty new) It’s also ok to give parameters even if they seem obvious to you. “Ethel, I noticed the other day you were helping with Lucy’s project. I appreciate the team work, but I need you to focus on your work and not help Ethel or anyone else who might be working on a non-core activity. It’s ok if she asks for help loading her car which takes 5 min or 10 minutes, but anything over that should be discussed with me first”

      You should also have the conversation with Lucy something along the lines of “Lucy, I noticed Ethel working with you on the fundraising stuff last week. I’ve already let her know that she needs to focus on her core duties for awhile so please don’t ask her to help with anything that is more than 5 minute lend a quick hand type of thing in the future without talking to me first. How is that going, btw? Are you still able and wanting to do it? If you find it getting out of hand commitment wise, let me know and I’ll work with the other departments to get you some help”

      Both of these conversations should be not a big deal. You’re setting your expectation without judgement.

      You’re last comment sounds familiar, based on your other comment it sounds like you may be taking a fresh look at your team and the work and are seeing things you don’t like. That’s normal. Just take one thing at a time and address it. Don’t be shy about setting expectations, but make sure you are listening to them and supporting them at the same time. Admit what’s happened. “Guys I was focused on clearing my plate and haven’t said anything about some of this, which is why it may seem like it’s coming from left field. I’m sorry that I haven’t had the focus you deserve, but I’ve got it now and am ready to support you”

      This is a tough place to be in, but you have to start making changes sometime. It’s not going to get any easier with time. Pick something, fix it, and move to the next thing.

  38. Yay, I’m a Llama Again!*

    This is more for my curiosity, and I’m looking for UK HR people to weigh in please and thank you.

    We had 4 people on our team who were either seconded into the role from another department, or on a contract due to end in December.

    All 4 have since interviewed for and been given the permanent positions that were released a few weeks ago.

    But why did they have to re interview? These were open to all so there are also some people disappointed not to get the roles. Why couldn’t the company just say, “we’d like to offer you the role on a permanent basis’ rather than go through the rigamarole of interviews? (These four were always going to get the roles, it was highly unlikely someone with more experience would come along, and they were only advertised internally). Do all jobs HAVE to be posted up for anyone to apply, and was it necessary that they went through a formal interview only 3 months after they were interviews to get the seconded role?

    1. Indigo Five Alpha*

      Are you working for a private company or public sector? Certainly if it’s public sector you will have to apply and be interviewed. Private might be different though

  39. Getmeouttahere*

    Is it a bad idea to use a current coworker as a reference?

    I have a phone interview coming up today for a position that I’m very excited about. I know it’s a first step, but I want to have my ducks in a row. The position is for a role that we have at my company, but for various reasons even if it was available at my company I wouldn’t want it. The role is one I feel I could excel at and is adjacent (although more prestigious) to my current role.

    The person in this role at my company and I work closely together. We are both currently looking for new jobs as neither of us are happy where we are, and we both know this so there’s a certain sense of mutually assured destruction going on. This person would not be interested in the opportunity I’m looking at as it would be a much much longer commute for them, so I’m. It worries about them taking the job. I’d like to use them as a reference because I feel like they can speak really well towards my qualifications.

    The only question I have about doing it is how an employer would take it. I remember a conversation I had once with my dad where a recruiter called him for a reference for someone he managed and the recruiter was wary because the person had used their current manager as a reference. I guess they were questioning if my dad was trying to get rid of the guy (he wasn’t, the company was merging and my dads company was the smaller fish so people were getting out if they could to avoid a layoff). Is it a red flag to use a current coworker as a reference?

    2. Antilles*

      Not in the slightest. It’s quite common.
      You can’t use your current manager for obvious reasons, but you do want to be able to use someone who can speak to your current work, so a co-worker is a pretty standard choice. It’s especially common if you’ve been in the same role for a few years so that you can something more current than something that’s five years old or whatever.
      The only caveat I’d always add is that you need to pick the co-worker carefully to make sure it’s someone who isn’t going to suddenly blab to your boss, but based on your third paragraph that doesn’t seem likely to be an issue in your particular case.

    3. ferrina*

      What you’re suggesting is super common. In my latest job search I used several current coworkers as references, each of whom worked with me in a different capacity and could speak to different skills (I also used a former manager).

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I love that because your reference is in exactly the same role and has the same advancement goals, they’d be able to speak directly to what would matter to the new employer.

    5. All Het Up About It*

      Agreeing with all these and also pointing out the difference. You would be using a co-worker, not a manager at your current spot. That’s super common because a lot of people feel they cannot use their current manager as a reference, due to the fact that they don’t want to let their manager know they are looking.

      An additional note – while less common to use a current manager as a reference it’s not UNCOMMON. I’ve done it once or twice depending on the manager, situation. That recruiter who talked to you Dad was just… out of touch or reacting to a very specific situation. Don’t use that example as any sort of standard.

      Good luck with the job hunting!

    6. Mockingjay*

      It’s called a peer reference and it’s pretty common. I’ve been one for team members. I can provide insight on a candidate’s technical or specialized skills that a manager may not see day to day. Whereas a manager can offer a different perspective on an employee’s performance.

  40. Sandwiches*

    I think I just need to vent. I feel like my dept is coming apart at the seams.
    – We’re severely understaffed, and in peak vacation season which is making things worse
    – Two of my colleagues are seemingly calling all the shots- they got preferential treatment from our toxic old boss, and are currently the most experienced people on our team so our current boss is probably placating them so that they don’t threaten to quit
    – We have a new hire and I don’t have much hope he’ll work out. All my suggestions for a training plan were shot down. He seemingly has no relevant experience so it feels like we need to teach him the absolute basics about our industry and our products, as well as office etiquette and Outlook and Excel. I also have a feeling he might be neurodivergent, and I don’t know if we’re training him in a way that works best for him personally. (I would feel rude asking, and I don’t have much experience training people in general so I’m already a little worried that my few training sessions with him have been just ok, and I’m certain my colleagues haven’t even thought about this.)
    – We have another new hire starting in a few weeks, and I can already see her training kind of going wrong, but she might have more relevant experience. She’s supposed to be given the same general responsibilities as my two colleagues, and the kid who started last week is supposed to share responsibilities with me. I have half a mind to ask my boss if I can train the second new hire the way I think we should have trained the first, and then have her work with me instead. I’m not sure this would go over well with anyone but I know that the new kid’s training is half-assed and that I’m going to be the person who deals with the consequences of that.
    It’s all just really discouraging and I needed to vent. Hope you all had a better week.

    1. ferrina*

      Yipes, that’s a lot! I hope you’re doing something relaxing this weekend!

      Is this an ongoing situation, or is it something where concrete steps are being taken to address these things? You’ve got understaffing + toxic coworkers + training (which is it’s own thing). That’s a lot! It might be worth it to look around and see what’s out there.

      Yes, you can talk to a different training plan to your boss. Boss may or may not say yes, but it’s worth an ask. If your boss does say no, you can ask for additional training resources for the other new hire. You can suggest additional training, practice exercises or even offer to be a mentor (in an official capacity with your boss’s blessing, so the New Hire knows that you are Officially The Person To Ask). Lots of bosses are at a loss when it comes to training, so I think you should suggest whatever you are thinking of. Good luck!

      1. Sandwiches*

        Thank you! Up until recently I hadn’t really thought about leaving my job, other than for career advancement, but that changed kinda quickly this week. I’m definitely going to speak to my boss. We’re not the only team she manages and I think there are some things in all this mess that she isn’t aware of yet.

    2. Zee*

      I don’t think it’s rude to ask someone what kind of training works best for them. Just don’t mention it’s because you think they’re neurodivergent. It’s a valid question regardless of that. “Hey, just checking in – how do you think the training is going? Is this a good format, or should we try XYZ instead?”

  41. Help - interview today!*

    I have a phone interview today for a great opportunity, and I’m a little stumped on how to communicate salary requirements. For the sake of this example, I’m going to say that my current salary is $100k to keep things simple and make for easy calculations. So, currently I make $100k with a 15% annual bonus, which is $115k if I get my full bonus (it’s based on performance, so I usually get the full bonus). However, my current company is struggling financially (one of the reasons I’m looking). We got a very small bonus last year, like 5%, and I expect that much or less this year (maybe nothing). So in reality, this year I will make $100k, reliably. If I ask for $115k in a new role, I’ll be maintaining my potential current salary, but I may also be pricing myself out of an opportunity, when, in reality, I’ll probably bring home less than that in my current role this year. However, if I stay at this job and things turn around, I could reliably make $115k next year, so I’m hesitant to make a move for less.

    In this situation, how would you state your salary requirements?

    1. ferrina*

      What is your salary requirements? It sounds like you’re lumping your bonus with your salary, which isn’t quite the same thing.
      I’d give a range. “I’m looking for $100k-$115k, depending on the role and other aspects of compensation”. There, you gave your range. Later you can talk about exact details, like bonus vs salary.

      2. Student*

        “Clueless” is probably true. But that does not grant you immunity from labor laws, nor any other laws. I hope it goes to court.

        1. Dancing Otter*

          What’s with the state department of labor saying they only concern themselves with actual employees?

          1. pancakes*

            Dereliction? I only had a quick peek at what turned up just now when I searched NC labor laws job advertisements, but it seems employers there are required to post the same FLSA minimum wage posters, etc., employers are elsewhere. They’re not operating this franchise in international waters.

            The older I get, the more I’m inclined to think corruption in the US is overlooked more frequently than we tend to acknowledge. It’s not an apples to apples comparison, but think about the Murdaugh saga in neighboring SC. Their housekeeper died in their home at age 57, reportedly from tumbling down stairs, and no one even did an autopsy!

            On a similar note, I just did a quick search for another saga I had in mind, something I’d read about incredible corruption among municipal employees in a very small town in the Midwest, I think. I can’t find it quickly but there are so many similar ones. Sample headline, this one about governance in Nebraska, which sounds dull. And yet: “Clerks have stolen an estimated $1.7 million from 17 towns in the past decade, according to audit reports and restitution orders. And the problem could be worse: 158 towns have gone more than 20 years without a full financial audit.”

            My thinking is, far too many people are inclined to mistake corruption for cluelessness.

      3. pancakes*

        How so, exactly? Third most popular fast food franchise in the US according to trade press, $5.8 billion in revenue last year, and higher average per store earnings than McD’s, Starbucks, and several other competitors. Please don’t fall for the paper-thin folksy branding. The company is not run by people who just fell off a turnip truck, or hobbyists, or kids with only lemonade stand experience. They have an in-house legal division just like any other massive company. There are articles about that in trade press, too, including a 2018 AmLaw profile about them being nominated for “In-House Legal Department of the Year.”

        1. Maverick Jo*

          Do you think the idea of paying “volunteers” with food as payment is a good one?

          1. pancakes*

            Absolutely not. It’s illegal and gross. My point was that it’s not something they did out of cluelessness.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      So help me I swear I searched for the text before writing my post below!

  43. Eggo*

    When old coworkers say they’ll keep in touch, do they really mean it? I left a 4 year position at the start of the year. It was a very small firm so there was a lot of weird emotional boundary crossing but for the most part, i was pretty close with my coworkers and enjoyed my time with them. I haven’t heard a single word from anyone since I left 5 months ago… Not even a text to say hi. Is it even worth reaching out to see if anyone wants to grab lunch/check in?

    1. Can't think of a funny name*

      My experience is that most do not mean it but you could reach out once and see if they respond.

    2. Wisteria*

      Some do, some don’t. The truth is that situational friendships rarely survive once the situation ends.

      You say you haven’t heard anything—have you reached out? Or are you waiting for them to reach out? You can’t really be upset about people not texting if you are also not texting.

    3. kiki*

      I think most people genuinely mean to, but lose track of time or are self-conscious about being the one to reach out. I think some “out of sight, out of mind” comes into play as well– people don’t want to reach out right after you leave, and then the longer you’re gone, the less likely they are to remember. I would totally reach out to a couple of the folks you were closest with and ask if they’re interested in grabbing lunch! The worst they can say is no and it’s really not a weird thing to do.

    4. Antilles*

      My experience is that most of them who say to keep in touch do mean it, but then they get busy and you sort of slip from their mind.
      My experience has also consistently been that if you take the step to reach out to them, they’ll often be happy you checked in and be glad to meet up for lunch or drinks or what have you.

    5. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      I’ve been retired 10 years. I keep in touch on FB with several ex-coworkers, some nearly daily comments and joking back and forth (and more seriously when appropriate), others less frequently, and others just occasional reactions without comments. A few I’ll message for very private comments, like regarding a mutual friend – not so much gossip as things like health or other concerns. The in-person gatherings kind of died with Covid, but we’re all vaguely planning to resurrect them if we ever get nice weather.

  44. Alexander Graham Yell*

    I have been studying for months for a major certification exam and took it today, fully expecting to fail. But I get to celebrate instead! I am so so so freaking happy to be done with it.

    2. Ali + Nino*

      Congratulations! And any advice on making time to study (assuming you had to balance this with another job and general life responsibilities)?

      1. Picard*

        Not the OP but as someone who went back to school and sat for a very competitive certification exam held in four parts over the course of a year (and you lose your pass status if you wait too long between parts) I can only say, I slept A LOT less. I have a family (kid was under ten at the time), husband (who was a lifesaver) and support from my extended family (I lived with my parents while going to school since the classes I needed where not available at my local school)

        I would wake up to study for an hour, go to work (flexible/remote), go to school, come home and study 1-3 more hours. I lived flash cards both digital (easy to review when waiting in line for anything) and hand written (studies have shown that the act of writing helps imprint the knowledge in your brain)

        You just have to make the commitment to yourself. As someone with unmedicated ADHD, it was one of the hardest things Ive ever done.

      2. Alexander Graham Yell*

        So I had to balance with my full time job, but because it was something work encouraged me to do, I was able to turn all of my down time during the work day into study time. That said, sometimes that would be 2+ hours, sometimes that would be nothing. So I found a non-home location where I studied well and went there for hours every weekend. But I’m single and only have a cat and am new to town so didn’t have much of a social life I’d have to plan around, so it was kind of the perfect combination of circumstances to study for something like this.

  45. EMM*

    I’ve asked a few friends and family about this, but haven’t really got a good answer. I’m 39, I work in a field that requires an advanced degree (which I have) and I’m part of a supervisor/manager team, where I manage 3 people.

    I also look really young. I’m short (5’0″) and a little bit chubby. People tend to think I’m in my early 20’s most of the time. And I notice that my coworkers (the ones I manage and others) tend to treat me very young, even tho my boss is only 2 years older than me and he doesn’t get treated that way. They sort of act like… I’m not knowledgeable sometimes. I mean, I can’t really explain it but I see the way they treat other people who are my age or a little bit older and there is a difference.

    I dress like a professional, we have a very lax dress code here, everyone’s in jeans and nice clothing. I do the same, I don’t wear like tee-shirts or anything that would be considered inappropriate. I don’t wear make-up, because on I don’t want to and two, my skin is sensitive and I break out in even the mildest types.

    I just want to be taken seriously and like an adult by my peers and all of the suggestions I get are to dress like an adult or wear make-up and… I don’t think I should have to wear clothes and make-up that would make me feel uncomfortable. I know it’s the norm in most office cultures, but the people close to my age all dress like me and don’t wear a lot of make-up either!

    I’m just a little frustrated with things. Anytime I feel like I try to step in and say “I know what I’m talking about thanks!” it makes it worse, then I get called cranky or bitchy because I’m being assertive. But like, I either let people walk all over me because they think I’m young or I stand up for myself and get labeled a bitch. I just don’t know how to handle this.

    1. Paris Geller*

      I don’t have a ton of advice, just commiseration. In my last job I *was* the youngest, but not in a junior role, and I definitely dealt with people not taking me seriously because of my age–in your case, your perceived age. I never really found a way to combat it. I *did* sometimes dress a little nicer than everyone, use makeup, etc., but you’re right that you shouldn’t *have* to do that. It’s a really frustrating situation.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Don’t feel that you need to wear make-up if it breaks you out and you don’t like it.

      But let’s look at your letter again. You seem to be saying “I look young and I hate it and people say I should do X and Y but I don’t like X and Y so I’m not gonna, but I still want things to be different.”

      So … my suggestions — check back with your wardrobe/look. Is there a “one extra step” you can do that will polish your look without making you look like an 80’s Career Girl? Maybe a new pair of glasses or more refined haircut, maybe upgrading the types of clothes you’re wearing a bit – better fabrics, better cuts, or simply tailored to fit you exactly, which can be a subtle and miraculous way to look more put together.

      And then think about your tone and behaviors. To get the respect you’re looking for, you should be coming from a place of groundedness. It might be that your boundaries or self-image are a little wobbly, so your responses aren’t as controlled as you’d like (e.g., getting walked on vs being called cranky). Taking a measured moment (and deep breath) before stepping in to assert yourself can make a huge difference in having a “responsible” response.

    3. PollyQ*

      Is it fair that you’re thought of as young and inexperienced because you’re short (and also probably, female)? No, not in the least. But it’s the reality that you’re living in, and changing your wardrobe, even a little, might go a good way towards helping the problem. I recommend throwing a loosely-structured blazer over what you’re already wearing and maybe wearing sharper-looking/more expensive shoes, which could still be fairly comfy loafers/flats.

      Although, if people are literally calling you cranky & bitchy to your face, the problem may be this job/these coworkers, and it wouldn’t be unreasonable to think about job-hunting.

    4. Violas are blue*

      Sounds frustrating. I started dressing slightly better than my peers, while still dressing comfortably. For example, slacks instead of jeans, button down instead of a tee shirt. I also slowly brought blazers into my wardrobe: mostly neutral colors, with silk scarves in the winter when my neck got cold. Nice looking but comfortable shoes, but NOT heels. No makeup other than moisturizer.

      I’ve found that clothing does make a difference on how people perceive you, and sometimes on how you present yourself. You can slowly make small changes to your apparel that may affect how others perceive you.

      Regarding the comments on you being cranky or bitchy, sometimes you can mitigate how others perceived you based on how you listen, and how you say things. Maybe you can investigate communication styles. Have you read How to win friends and influence People? I’m sure there are other books or blogs that can help with this.

    6. matcha123*

      I’m basically the same age as you and a little taller. I get what you mean, but I prefer to look younger. Giving people respect based on them appearing older (or being older) has never made sense to me, and I don’t want to lean into that, but I digress.

      For petites, I browse ExtraPetite. She’s a blogger about your height and she gives tips on tailoring shirts and clothes to look better on a petite frame. I like her style, unfortunately since my body type is different I can’t use some of her examples, but she has a lot of work outfits to browse through and I get a lot of good ideas from her blog.

      As to treatment at work, I think the issue is with your co-workers’ mindsets. I had a senior coworker treat me like an idiot because she assumed I was at least 10 years younger than I actually was. If I tried to talk about my experience, she’d talk over me or make snide comments.
      The age one is assumed to be shouldn’t be the determining factor in whether or not they take you seriously. I be honest, if they are invested in viewing you as much younger than you actually are, I don’t think that changing up your clothing style will have that much of an impact. They need to change their mindsets.

    7. Camelid coordinator*

      I think you need different strategies with different groups. You can be direct and remind your reports of your greater experience. At the same time you could bring this problem to your boss, approaching them as if they were a mentor. This both alerts them to their own behavior and gets them invested in solving it. I also wonder if you work with your colleagues on your level so that your peers vocally agree with your ideas, give you credit, and uplift your contributions. There is a famous example of the women in the Obama White House doing this.

    8. Anima*

      I turn 35 tomorrow and get estimated at around 25-28 most times. I fully lean into it sometimes! It gives me leeway to make mistakes and only get a “aww you’re so young, do this and this next time” instead of a stern talking to.
      In cases where it gets annoying I mention my age in passing, in a non-work conversation for example. Or I drop my “a already have a masters” bomb, which often makes them second guess themselves. Can you do anything comparable?

    9. Mynona*

      I’m so frustrated for you that–even here–commenters are doubling down with wardrobe advice. What you’re describing sounds like garden-variety sexism in the workplace, and make-up and a power suit won’t fix that. The best advice I can give you from my own experience as a younger-looking woman it to speak and act with confidence in your knowledge and expertise. Don’t get defensive when someone undermines you–and don’t necessarily call them out on it–just react like, of course you’re the senior/expert here and of course you know the score. But I don’t think you’re bringing this on yourself with something you’re doing or not doing.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I totally agree about speaking and acting with confidence, and about sexism.

        I also have been in the world long enough to believe that there is more than one way to burn the patriarchy, but all of them are tiring. If putting on lipstick reduces your headwind by 2 percent, well that’s 2 percent more energy you have for other things.

      2. Invisible today*

        I agree. Wardrobe matters a bit, but honestly there is so much more you can do beyond that. I am a female who typically looks a decade younger than i am which was a royal pain in my 20s and 30s, esp when i managed a team of middle aged males. Here are some tips that worked for me :

        Language / speech. Lower the pitch of your voice a smidge and slightly speak slower and more measured phrases. Fast and high pitched reads as young/ immature. Dont hide your expertise behind verbal caveats like “I guess”. Also. Be wary of sharing personal details that might age you.

        Body language – stand and sit like you know you belong there – take up the full space you deserve. Be aware of eye contact and personal space.

        I find that until I am 100% confident my authority / expertise is established within the group, i refrain from laughing / joking around. If someone tells me a joke, ill acknowledge it with a small and a spoke “hah, thats funny” or similar.

    10. NaoNao*

      Sometimes people have a slightly dated or “frozen in time” idea of what makeup is. It might benefit you to check out some new items and innovative formulas out there and/or opt into items that don’t get applied to the face skin, like:

      Eyeshadow
      Eyebrow gel/shadow/cream
      Mascara
      Lipstick/gloss

      But leaving aside makeup, if it’s just based on appearance, one thing I would suggest is upgrading to the most expensive and polished version of your existing clothing you can afford/feel comfortable in. Get all natural fabrics: wool, silk, leather, cotton, linen. I’ve noticed that solid colors and monochrome outfits often read more authoritative than prints. Prints can read “support staff” all too easily.

      Shoes! A really amazing pair of shoes is going to be 3 figures. But if you wear them every day, that’s worth it I think. Look into a pair with block heels or cone heels or a wedge. Maybe Cole Haan or another high quality comfort brand.

      Look into chunky, architectural power accessories like cuff bracelets, oversized glasses frames, statement necklaces, investment-grade gold, chunky “huggie” hoop earrings.

      Jenny Bird, Mejuri, EyeCandy L.A, Gorjana, Panacea, Soko, Chan Lu, Alexis Bittar, Kendra Scott, and Kate Spade all make interesting and “grown up” yet still personality-having accessories.

      Corporette dot com has some great breakdowns on outfits, styles, and options for the work place.

    11. Gracely*

      Your boss is probably being treated a bit differently because of his position–he’s your boss, so he’s got some seniority you don’t have, regardless of your similar ages or the fact that you also have a position managing others.

      Make up is not going to make a difference if you don’t like it, so definitely don’t start using it. Maybe upping your game on the clothing side of things would help, but if you’re already dressing like everyone else, I doubt it. If you have a hairstyle that reads younger, that might be something you could change to something more “adult”–like if you just brush and let it airdry, maybe try blow-drying sometimes, or putting it up. Again, that’s probably only going to have a marginal effect, but if you’re up for it, it might be worth looking into.

      Is it possible they’re reacting to you as a manager and not based on your age? Because there is also the whole “ugh, my manager thinks they know everything but they have no idea how little they know” thing, whether it’s true or not. And sometimes, if that’s the issue, you can fix that by acknowledging the things that others also have expertise in. Like, “hey, I know a lot about this, but Nadja, I know you worked with Nandor on a similar project last year–what’s your take on this subject?” It puts you in a “I’m in charge because I’m running this, but I’m also confident enough to get input from others” position.

      It also might be at least partly a matter of being proactive/confidently already taking the lead so you’re not stuck in a place of stepping in to remind people of what you know. So no more “Thanks, I know what I’m talking about” and instead “Yeah, we should do it this way because Reason A and Reason B” or “Hey, have you considered doing C instead of D? I like that approach better.” Don’t tell them that you know what you’re talking about–act like they already know that, and then anything you jump in with is going to come across less “cranky/bitchy”.

    12. Jules the First*

      I have the same problem, on a bigger scale – I manage a bigger team and oversee business development for a firm with hundreds of millions in turnover. People still routinely assume I’m ten years younger (which is awkward because I’m already about five years younger than the person who typically does this job). I don’t wear makeup (or heels anymore).

      Things that helped:
      – I don’t make coffee or fix coffee in meetings. I arrive with a travel mug or sit there until someone offers to fix me a cup. Making coffee makes men of a certain generation think “junior” where you just think “polite”
      – I don’t take notes. If it’s a complicated meeting and I need to make some notes, I’ll do it briefly on my phone, or grab some scrap paper. I *never* leave a notebook open on the table…again, that says “junior”
      – always sit on a corner of the meeting table, make eye contact with as many people as you can while they are speaking
      – never be early to a meeting unless you are definitely the most junior person in the room. If the meeting room is empty, make another loop. On time is best (bearing in mind what “on time” is for people at your level in your org), but if you have to choose, late is better than early
      – use I statements and try to reference past experience “when I led x project in 2019 we dealt with this by…”
      – never get defensive. Act surprised. When someone tells you something you already knew, raise an eyebrow, pause, and build on it with “and yes of course we should start with that, I would also propose that we did x and y, based on my experience of z”

      Things that did not work:
      – makeup, haircuts, glasses, heels, other shoes
      – wardrobe changes like blazers or dressing up. Now you just look like someone trying to look older than you are.

      Zaha Hadid used to say that the trick to being a woman in a room full of men was to assume you have the right to be there (because that’s what every little man in the room already thinks about himself), and to be uncompromisingly brilliant. The second part is a little harder than the first, but both are doable. (You can also lean into the assumption and start with “I know I don’t look old enough to be telling y’all what to do, but my diploma gets older every year even if I don’t”)

      1. Mascanta*

        This is great. As a 41-year-old woman who has never worn makeup due to personal preference but is now reaching an age where it might make more of a difference to my appearance, it’s heartening to hear from others who have had success in their careers without wearing it (to be clear, it has never been an issue for me at work, I’m just being grumpy about getting older).

        The other thing I haven’t seen mentioned is to request backup support with peers, and even your boss, if you feel they are a safe person to speak to, so they can reinforce your authority. I once had a younger woman join a team of people mostly 35+ as the assistant manager, and I used to actively make clear that she was in charge when I was gone, or shut down grumbles about her age if they arose. If someone came to me with an issue that I suspected they’d already had an unfavorable answer to, I’d ask “what did (assistant manager) say?” when they reluctangly told me I would say “well I back her up 100%, so that’s your answer.” If you feel you can ask for some of that kind of support from peers (for meetings) or your boss, I’d reccommend trying.

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I posted memorabilia from my big-number college reunion for fun — and it had the unexpected side-effect of letting people know I was 10+ years longer in the industry than they’d realized. (I finished a programming certificate shortly after starting and apparently few people realized that was in addition to my bachelor’s!)

    14. Student*

      You could be me from 10 years ago.

      The thing I did that made the biggest difference was changing jobs. I parlayed my experience into a slightly higher-level role elsewhere. The org I switched to also treats women better than the former org, and has more women in visible leadership roles. So, start applying.

      I also did give into the make-up and wardrobe pressures you’re experiencing. It made less of an impact than switching jobs – the people you work with will make an initial impression of you that sticks, and the new look is really only going to influence new people you start working with afterward. It does help. I think the clothes help more than the make-up. If I look more like a boss via clothes, people treat me more like I’m running things.

      I usually stick to a bit of lipstick and a bit of eyeshadow when I do make-up, as I’ve found that seems to be the most impactful for me. This seems to be the thing you’re least interested in trying, but a slightly darker shade of lipstick than your natural lip color might help without irritating your skin or taking much time.

    15. kina lillet*

      Specifically the “I know what I’m talking about”, I think in addition to the sexism you’re in a bit of a negative feedback loop. You get patronized—you feel upset—reading as upset makes you read as more patronizable—more patronizing—you snap.

      Adding positive feedback loops of control might help. For example, staying fairly calm and friendly, but saying, “Let me stop you there, I’m familiar with the process. I’ll rephrase—I’m actually asking about the contractors progress on X.” You keep your control over your affect, and over the conversation, and ideally that helps reduce the feedback loop.

  46. Kesnit*

    I had a rather awkward conversation with my boss at lunch earlier this week.

    It started with him saying when (not if, when) I trade my wife in on a “younger model,” having kids would be expected. I glossed over the point that I CANNOT HAVE CHILDREN and pointed out that she and I have been married for 10 years (and together 13) and I have no intention of “trading her in.” He commented back that his parents were married for 20 years before they divorced.

    Then he asked me if transmen who are trying to get pregnant have to go off hormones. I have no idea. It’s never been something I thought about because I am never having children!

    Then he asked if it would have been possible for my wife and I to get pregnant at the same time when we first started dating. At this point, I did tell him I’d had surgery before I ever met her.

    Part of me wants to report the conversation. I know other people have dealt with him making unprofessional comments, but those comments – though I don’t know exactly what was said – are not likely to be like what he said to me. I am not 100% sure anyone would back me up if I did say something.

    1. Harper*

      These are super invasive questions for a boss to ask an employee, and the tone of them feels bigoted vs. curious/trying to learn. I think you should report it. You can tell HR you don’t want a big deal made. If he hasn’t truly broken any rules, they should document it and watch the situation (this has been my experience). If they think he’s way out of line, you’ll have confirmation that your gut was right and it needs to be addressed.

    2. Student*

      So this sounds like pregnancy discrimination. He’s feeling out whether you may become pregnant and whether you may be planning to have kids (which, if you do not carry the child, would potentially still be protected in some US states under family status – but isn’t protected at the federal level). The comment about “trading in” your wife is pretty openly misogynistic.

      I think you should report the conversation to an upper manager or HR. It’s pretty over-the-top ridiculous and you’re right to feel targeted and concerned. Before you go into this conversation, it helps to have a clear picture of what you want to get out of it. Do you want an apology for yourself? For your wife? Do you want him to stop asking about your family planning? Do you want the company to put a stop to the gendered harassment? Do you want him to stop asking you about very personal anatomical details of your trans experience?

      AAM has good advice in various articles about trying to phrase this in a way where HR or a higher manager will respond well. Her language generally uses a script that goes “Of course we [important to make is seem like you’re all on the same side] don’t want to open the company up to legal liability for [issue]…” I suggest looking up her prior advice on other harassment issues.

      I’m sure you’re well aware that the protections for trans folks are spotty, at best. Make sure you know if you have any state or local protections. If you think, based on your experience in the business, that you won’t get anything good out of complaining, then it might be time to job search instead.

      1. Kesnit*

        “He’s feeling out whether you may become pregnant and whether you may be planning to have kids”

        I’ve worked here for 5 years and have always been clear that I never wanted to have children.

        “I think you should report the conversation to an upper manager or HR.”

        He is the head of our local office.

        “Do you want the company to put a stop to the gendered harassment?”

        I’d say this. I know he’s made inappropriate comments to the cis-female staff, though I don’t know exactly what was said.

        “don’t want to open the company up to legal liability for [issue]…”

        Forgot to mention we work for a government agency.

        1. pancakes*

          My understanding of pregnancy discrimination laws is that they’re focused on the discriminatory behavior, not the likelihood of their target getting pregnant, or desire to. Whether you have or haven’t ever wanted kids seems beside the point to me.

          Look into reporting options for gov’t workers outside of your own workplace, if that seems less daunting. I’ll see if I can find some info. I hope your own HR would want to know about this too, though. I agree with everyone else saying this guy is terrible and should be reported to someone.

    3. searching for a new name*

      What he said was entirely inappropriate. Is your HR good? I think they would want to know about this. His comments are gross

    4. PollyQ*

      These comments are 1000000% out of line and 1000000% reportable, and a decent HR department would be appalled by them. However, it is true that many companies don’t deal that well complaints like that, so if your sense is that you’re working for one of them, discretion may be the better part of valor here.

      Even if you don’t choose to report, I recommend you stop engaging with your boss on this subject sof your marriage or your biology AT ALL going forward. “Sorry boss, but I don’t feel comfortable discussing my private life at work.” is a perfectly reasonable boundary to set. Change the subject quickly to the TPS reports or the latest sportsball game and you’ll probably be OK.

    5. Pocket Mouse*

      WTAF. Please report this. I’d caution you to report with low expectations of this particular nonsense being addressed, but it’s super inappropriate and can contribute to a record of this being a habit for him.

      Also, thanks for the reminder to brush up my “I don’t like where this conversation is going” stock phrases.

    6. ferrina*

      Wow. This is soooooo inappropriate. Absolutely reportable, and if you have any faith in your HR, I’d report it. It may be that they have a file on him already and they can’t prove anything. I agree with Harper and Student that you can make it more of an fyi for them, almost a concern about the legal liability (trans discrimination, pregnancy discrimination, I’m guessing there was some gender discrimination in there too). You don’t have to request that they do anything- if they’re competent, they’ll know what to do.

      If nothing else, document somewhere what he said, when he said it, and if there were any witnesses. Keep a running document- this isn’t an isolated incident.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Oh. My. Gidyard.

      That’s awful. You have to make the best decision for your situation, and your org may suck, but it is absolutely worth reporting and any HR or management worth their salt wouldn’t stand for it.

  47. Lucy Moran*

    I’m wondering if anyone has any advice regarding pivoting away from Executive Assistant/Admin work. I’ve never liked being in this role, but I’m good at it so I’ve gotten boxed into it for the last several years. I’d really like to work in the compliance / regulations field but am unsure how to get from A to B – my current company doesn’t really have a compliance team, so there aren’t lower level roles in that area that I could potentially go for. Any advice would be so appreciated!

    1. GarlicMicrowaver*

      Consider healthcare. Those types of roles can easily transfer to Patient Liaison or even Practice Manager/Coordinator.

    2. ferrina*

      What are your current responsibilities? I’d leverage that to get into another office job (ideally in compliance/regulation, but really anything that’s not EA- too many people will pigeon hole EA as unable to do anything else).
      Some ideas:
      Managing competing priorities/tasks: Program Associate or Project Management
      Drafting communications: Marketing/Communications Associate
      Managing personalities: Board/Customer Liaison

      The goal is to go into an entry/mid level (dep on your experience) non-EA role. Hopefully in your desired field, maybe not. Stay there for a year to get that non-EA experience on your resume, then start looking at lateral compliance/regulations positions. Depending on where you land, you may need to do a second move to get closer to your field. This might be a 5-year plan, not an immediate jump.
      Good luck!

      1. Lucy Moran*

        Thank you so much – this is helpful! My responsibilities are so varied in my current role – I report directly to the CEO and do all kinds of projects – investor relations, developing training materials, assisting legal, drafting documents for govt. proposals, and then all the usual suspects (travel booking, meetings, catering, events, office mgmt etc). It’s a crazy stressful role. My main problem is that the recruiters I’ve spoken with seem to only see the EA title and tell me that it will be hard to translate my jack of all trades experience into a more focused role – it’s been a little discouraging.

        1. ferrina*

          One trick is to hone in on a few skills. Rather than a Lucy of All Skills (which they may assume you don’t specialize in any), pick 2-3 that you want to highlight for each role that you apply to. This will allow you to showcase work that is relevant specifically to that role, and to show expertise in key skills (they’ll learn about your expertise in the other skills later, maybe after they hire you, but listing all the things you do now will muddy the waters).
          I keep a Resume Template with a long list of every accomplishment I’ve ever had (this is way too long for an actual application, it’s just for me). When I draft a resume for a particular job, I chose only the most relevant accomplishments, and ones that tend to fit together to tell a story of expertise in [Skill]. Your resume is a story-telling skill, and by showing a consistent building of skills and accomplishments, it can help recruiters picture you in the new role. Conversely, if you try to highlight all your skills, it’s like when a plot line bounces around in a book, and the recruiter can be left confused.
          Good luck!

    3. All Het Up About It*

      Maybe look into some government roles? I know a lot of our state agencies have Admin assistant/Project Coordinator roles that could help you transition. And even not, I think the skills for Admin assistant to project coordinator type roles at various agencies, institutions could translate well!

    4. Cocafonix*

      There is no way you can pivot with your current org, whatever you pivot to. Just a voice from experience.

  48. Cleaning Lady*

    In the past, when I have worked in-office and known that I was leaving for a new position, I would slowly start cleaning out my office over the course of a few weeks until the announcement was made. Then, by my last day I wouldn’t have a bunch of stuff to carry out. I was never too concerned about appearances b/c I had private offices that other people didn’t spend much time in.

    I now have a cubicle, but mostly WFH. When I lost my office and moved into the cubicle, I already knew I was not going to stay for much longer, so took the majority of my personal things home at that time.

    Still, everyone in the cube farm can see everything in my cube and they often call it “homey” and “comfortable.”

    While my boss knows I’m leaving, the rest of the crew does not yet. Would it be totally weird to come in over the weekend and take the majority of my large personal items home, just leaving the barest of essentials to look like it’s not totally empty? I don’t want to give things away before my boss announces my departure, but I also despise the idea of making several trips to the parking lot and back while other folks are at work. And honestly, I doubt I’m going to work in the office at all during my notice period.

    1. snowyowl*

      I think it would be fine to take the items home, but maybe a little odd to do it over the weekend. I think most people would just assume that because you’re mostly WFH you’re just moving things to your “regular” desk, and if you’re comfortable with that kind of side stepping the truth you could maybe even tell someone.

      Are you working in the office enough* that you could just start taking a few items home at the end of each day? (*Enough to get it cleaned out to the level you want before the actual announcement).

      If you’re totally comfortable with a white lie, you could just do it over the weekend and say that you’re redecorating your home office.

      1. All Het Up About It*

        Agree that the white lie about the home office décor could work if you must do this prior to the announcement.

        Here’s my question: if you are willing to do it over a weekend, why can’t you clean out your desk on a weekend during your notice period? I get that you aren’t going in to the office during that time, but presumably you aren’t going into the office regularly on weekends anyway.

        1. Cleaning Lady*

          I am in the middle of my notice period now. For lots of reasons, our management tightly controls the notifications about when people leave until there are plans in place. So I’ve got another 6 weeks or so, but my departure probably won’t be announced until two weeks before I leave.

  49. Tuckerman*

    I work at an office far from the main office. At the main office, they’ve all had professional headshots. We haven’t had them because someone needs to come from the main office, and well, COVID, etc. Apparently they have to use the same photographer/company.
    I paid for my own professional headshot to use for my side business, and used it for my Office 365 profile photo as well, since I want something professional for work. Work is now asking for a headshot for the website. But I plan to use it for my side business. Is that OK? The businesses aren’t related fields. I don’t think work will be doing headshots any time soon.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      if they give you a copy of the file, you can use the headshot when & wherever you want.

    2. PollyQ*

      As long as you paid for the rights to use the shot any way you see fit, then I see no problem at all.

      1. Foley*

        This. If there’s no written agreement with the photog, then you’re free to use them. But lately every headshot I’ve hired myself has some specific limitations. The last one was no use in print. So check the fine print, but otherwise I think you’re fine.

  50. Cj*

    Is there a way to set your LinkedIn profile to private so nobody can view it without your permission?

    I don’t want to delete my profile because I want to be able to search for jobs on LinkedIn, but there’s reasons I don’t want just anybody to be able to view it.

    1. ThatGirl*

      You can adapt your visibility on various things, like who can see your last name, how people can find you, etc. The whole point of LinkedIn is that /some/ people should be able to find you, but you control how much info you put in your profile and how easy it is to find you. Look under settings->Visibility.

        1. Foley*

          Yes! But it’s a moving target like privacy settings on any social media site. So if it’s important to you, check in on it. I did this for years because I needed it to search other people, but had no interest in connections, etc. I had to check the settings every 3 months. You’ll notice because you’ll start getting connection notices and realize that somehow you’ve become visible.

  51. WonkyStitch*

    Does anyone have a home crafting business where you use licensed artwork to create your products?

    I am building a business where I use my own digital fantasy art to have fabric printed, then make handbags and tote bags and such using that fabric. I focus on fantasy and roleplay/D&D type art.

    Anyway, I saw a post in a FB group for neurodiverse artists (I am autistic) from a lady who was sharing her daughter’s awesome artwork that would fit my theme. I asked her if her daughter would be interested in licensing a couple of her pieces. I’ve never done that before. I found a licensing agreement on LegalZoom and bought it and modified it.

    So I thought I might modify my business model to be all about bags made with fabric printed with artwork by neurodiverse artists. I think it would be a great niche that not many people are in. I’d still do my own art, but would also consider submissions by other neurodiverse artists, I’d pay a fee for each piece plus a percentage of sales, and I’d always credit the artist any time I posted a picture of their work online.

    Does anyone do anything like this that I can pick your brain please? I want to make sure I am not misappropriating these artists’ beautiful work and that they are getting all the credit they deserve, while also growing my business.

    1. Foley*

      A fairly simple licensing agreement should be fine. BUT there are two issues maybe? First, do you have a step up clause. If you sell 500K, then the fee is Y or Flat no matter what. Just a thought. If something takes off, feelings change about flat fees.

      The second issue is infringement and how you’d handle it.

  52. Nicki Name*

    How do you deal with premature longings for retirement?

    I’m 20+ years from retiring. Lately I’ve been thinking a lot about the hobbies I’d like to pick up if I had more time, looking at the newspaper listing for community events and thinking how nice it would be to be able to go to the ones on weekdays, that sort of thing.

    I’m currently permanently remote and loving it, very well paid, working strictly 8 hours a day, and am still getting interesting things to do at work and doing them, so I don’t *think* it’s job dissatisfaction.

    So what would you all suggest? Do I just deal? Am I lying to myself about not being bored with my job? Is this pandemic burnout finally manifesting for me?

    1. Nicosloanica*

      I think this sounds totally normal! You might see it as a sign that you could use a longer vacation, even a sabbatical, or that it’s time to start thinking about your next steps in your career even if you’re currently satisfied, but I don’t think it necessarily means anything other than daydreaming can be an adaptive strategy. I often reflect that if I do actually get to retire (and in my generation, that doesn’t seem at all clear) it may very well be only because I am too ill to continue working or because I have to be a caretaker for a loved one full time. Also plenty of people never make it retirement. Dreaming about retirement now is possibly as good as it gets. Dream away!

    2. ABC*

      Look into the FIRE movement (financial independence, Retire early) if you haven’t already. There’s lots of us yearning for the same thing. I haven’t found a way to deal except for making (and working on executing) a plan to save and invest my income. Good luck.

      I’ll be keeping an eye on this thread to see if anyone has any advice for the sticking it out side of things. I’ve heard to work on making your life outside of work as rich as possible (go to those events on the weekend, etc.) to start building toward the post-retirement life you envision.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        For the FIRE movement, I recommend the book Work Optional by Tanja Hester. Her approach is to think about how you want to live your best life, and then use money as a tool to achieve those goals. Other FIRE people focus more on how to maximize savings and investment returns, which doesn’t interest me as much (certainly not as an end in itself).

      2. Office Gumby*

        Yas! Time to become a Mustachian.
        I, too, have a hankering for early retirement. Working for my money annoys me, so I thought about what my life would be like without *having* to work. Turns out I’ve got plenty to do, I just need a way to fund it.

        So I asked myself the question: How Bad Do I Want This?

        Bad enough to forgo little luxuries in favour of boosting my savings/retirement plan/investments? Bad enough to create a spreadsheet? Bad enough to curtail my lifestyle so it’s less commercial, but not so much I’m feeling an uncomfortable pinch? What was I willing to do to shave off even a year or two off my working phase? How bad do I want this?

        Turns out, pretty badly.

        A few years ago Mr Gumby and I did some hard-core calculations as to how much money it would take to maintain an okay lifestyle for the rest of our lives, and how long it would take us to get that in retirement funds and investment returns.

        As of today, we’ve got about five years or so until we hit that goal. Having that hard deadline to look forward to helps ease the yearning somewhat. Sure, we still have to go to work. Sure, we resent it, but when we chant the mantra “Only five more years”, we find we can tolerate it cheerfully.

    3. Antilles*

      How long has it been since you’ve taken a relaxing vacation? Because I’ve felt that same way and it’s inevitably come about when I’ve been running around for months on end without a break – either I haven’t taken any vacation period OR that the vacations I did have were things like “I’m going to a doctor’s appointment all day” or “going up for Christmas and running around to family events 24/7 for a solid week” or something else where it’s important but not truly ‘relaxation’ in the purest sense of the word.
      If your answer is that it’s been a while, then I’d probably start with taking some real time off and seeing if that helps re-energize you about where you’re at.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Lately I’ve been thinking a lot about the hobbies I’d like to pick up if I had more time, looking at the newspaper listing for community events and thinking how nice it would be to be able to go to the ones on weekdays, that sort of thing.

      Are any of these things you could be doing now, while working your job? Can you pick one hobby and make a few hours for it every week (in the evenings or on the weekends)? Can you take a day off work if you see a particularly interesting community event?

      You can also casually browse job listings to see if any of them sound better than your current job. That won’t necessarily give you an answer to the “am I bored with my job?” question but it will answer “are there any jobs that look more exciting than my current gig?” question.

      1. Nicki Name*

        I do make time for a couple of hobbies on evenings/weekends. But I feel a desperate longing to be doing All The Things. I expect to be a very active retiree. :)

        I guess I could browse a few job listings and see what feelings I have, thanks for the tip!

        1. ronda*

          In the FIRE groups there is also talk of cutting back on the amount you work to have more time for other stuff.
          So can you switch to working 4 days a week instead of 5?

          as you get older there is more potential of illnesses and injuries that might impact the things you can physically do, so getting more time off now and working a little more years to save for full retirement might be a good tradeoff.

    5. PollyQ*

      Pick up a new hobby now! You shouldn’t have to be retired, esp. from a 40-hour/wk job, in order to have some fun.

      1. Nicki Name*

        Oh, I definitely let myself have some fun now! The problem is that I can’t make time for every hobby I’m interested in and new hobbies have squeezed out old ones that I’d like to get back to sometime.

        1. PollyQ*

          True; there’s only so much time in the day! I’ll say this–my parents have both been retired for ~15 years now, they do have hobbies, but they’re also both a little bored with their retirement lives. COVID isn’t helping with that, of course, but even so, they still haven’t found anything as interesting as their former careers (not that they’d actually choose to go back to working).

        2. Philosophia*

          I have fully retired friends who can’t make time for every hobby they are interested in and even find new hobbies squeezing out old ones!

        3. The teapots are on fire*

          I know several highly active retirees and I am sorry to tell you this problem will not go away after retirement.

  53. Slap Bet Commissioner*

    I may need a reality check on this one….
    I manage a team of part-time customer service reps. most are in their early 20s either just finishing up school or just out of it. (I am in my late 30s, which may matter, as I think my particular issue might be a generational thing). Summer is our slow season so I have recently been working on hiring more people for the fall, when we will be busy again. I used to always call promising applicants to get an idea of what their typical availability was and what kind of hours they were looking for, and if that reasonably matched what I was looking for I would invite them in for an interview. But I would make 15 calls and get one call back. So I started reaching out by e-mail instead and got a lot more responses.

    Recently a candidate responded to my e-mail with no salutation, no answer to my simple questions, just a one sentence response asking me a question in return (something about typical hours). That was a perfectly reasonable question to ask, but the abruptness of the response threw me off. It was almost like this person was texting, not e-mailing. I responded with an answer. and they responded with another question, this time about pay (which was listed on the job posting, by the way). We have now gone back and fourth 4 times, with me answering their questions and I still have yet to get an answer from her to my original questions. I have no idea if they are even interested, and I need to move on. I am ready to give up on this person, but I am wondering if that is not fair. Again, I have no issues with the questions they are asking, just the manner in which they are doing it (couldn’t they have, at the very least, put all of their questions in one e-mail instead of one at a time??).
    For what it is worth I get about 5 new decent candidates applying every day (who responded to me in what I would categorize as a “normal” way). so I am not desperate.

    Is this just the way people communicate these days? Am I being unfair? Am I an old fart?

    1. WonkyStitch*

      Definitely a generational thing IMO

      Once someone’s been in the professional world using email a lot more, I think they’ll pick up standard norms. Once they’re working for you, you can always coach them if you see salutations and such as necessary in their emails.

      I used to be a recruiter and phone calls were so passe at that point. My boss thought I should be on the phone all the time and I tried to tell him that software engineers do NOT pick up the phone if they don’t know the caller, because they get inundated with calls from recruiters. He didn’t believe me and fired me for not hiring enough people LOL

      I personally don’t answer calls if I don’t know the caller. If it’s something I need to respond to, they can leave a message and I’ll return their call. I much prefer email. But I’m even older than you so *shrug*

    2. PollyQ*

      Not generational, they’re just young and haven’t learned professional norms yet. These same people will be far more gracious & mannerly in another couple of years.

    3. Ranon*

      Might be a company culture/ regional thing too- up until my current job I’d say pretty much every email I ever sent internally or externally was full salutation/ body/ signature but at current job in a new region about 2/3 of internal emails are just body and I have clients that do the same. Generally from orgs like ours that also use chat for internal communication.

      Personally not the approach I’d take in this case but certainly more prevalent than I would have assumed up until now based on past experience.

    4. hi hi hi*

      It can also be a personality type thing – some people are inherently direct while others prefer a “Hi [Name], chit chat here” in email exchanges. It’s rude to someone who wants the “hi” but might never occur to a person who’s focused on the task at hand.”

      IMO it is a bit rude in a business context especially if you don’t already know the person but sometimes thinking of it in terms of “they just have a different communication style” can bring you back from a Hulk Rage moment.

    5. Maggie*

      Well I wouldn’t hire someone who sucks at professional communication and pleasantry to be a customer service rep so I’d write this person off.

  54. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

    Canadians! Question about contract jobs. I applied for a short term contract job through a recruiter agency (that’s who posted it on LinkedIn). I was told the basics – it’s for four months, full time hours, on site at an office, pay rate $X/hour. I just kind of… don’t know how these things work here? Or anywhere honestly lol. What questions should I be asking, or are there things I should be watching out for if I get further in the process? I don’t have a good sense of what would be specified in the contract and what is normal.

  55. CalAH*

    Does anyone have advice on managing workplace transphobia that originates from someone outside your office? Or advice on identifying allies within your office to help with this problem?
    My organization spent the last two weeks being trained on new software. Half of our staff attended the first week, half the second. I attended the second week, the other out trans person in my organization attended the first (we both use they/them pronouns).The trainers are employees of the software company, not our organization.
    The lead trainer refused to use correct pronouns for myself and the other out employee. I considered talking to her about it until our break on the first day, when she was loudly complaining about my coworker from the previous week writing their pronouns on their name tag.
    I checked in with that coworker. They shared my frustration. We had both independently decided not to bring the issue up in the classroom because it seemed unlikely the trainer would change. I think that was the right decision for the moment. Making a scene (in an overheated classroom, with bored coworkers who want to leave as early as possible) was intimidating.
    I’m now second guessing that decision. The software company does have a DEI statement on their website, so I don’t think this trainer’s behavior is officially sanctioned. But since I didn’t bring it up directly, going over the trainer’s head seems unethical (or at least overkill).
    A complicating factor is that I am unsure if my organization would support me in this complaint. During their training, my coworker had one person from their department check on them and ask if they wanted their coworkers to raise the issue. During my week, no one commented on the issue. I was even thanked by a few coworkers (including my grandboss) for not correcting the trainer about mispronouncing my name because doing so would have slowed down training. Does this suggest lack of institutional support, and if so, should that dissuade me from raising the issue internally or to the software company?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Eugh, can’t tell if “would slow down the training” is actually true– if it’s a packed day, and the trainer was already getting rant-y, and you really needed the training information… or it could be “don’t bring this up at all”. I think it’s worth bringing it up to both your company and the external training. Get your buddy from the other week’s training to come with you (or sign off the email) just to “ask for clarification on how we should act in any potential future instances of transphobic behavior” or something, and separately, email the training provider’s company. Same thing as if a vendor was rude in any other way.

      If a waiter poured your drink in your lap at a company-sponsored dinner, you’d still complain to the manager of the restaurant.

      1. Miette*

        I second reaching out to the trainer’s company. I don’t think you should feel bad for not bringing it up in the moment, either, especially given the complaining you heard them doing about your colleague.

        I work in marketing in the software industry–no one wants their employees insulting or otherwise alienating a customer, full stop. It’s damaging to their brand reputation at the very least, and in direct violation of their stated DEI statements, as you mentioned. If you are willing to take it to the company, I’d start with the sales team–they have a lot of clout, typically. If they list a DEI officer listed, you could reach out to them if you prefer.

    2. Zap R.*

      I actually had to deal with this when we were shopping for organizational software. (The sales rep showed us that we could sort employees into Males, Females, and…A Slur.) We just sent the company a note that we were concerned our DEI initiatives did not align and were not interested in hearing from them further. That said, we had not actually purchased the service yet so we had lots of leeway to do that.

      I’m cis so YMMV, but is it possible for you and your coworker to raise the issue to your grandboss together? If it’s two of you, it will be harder for them to dismiss or minimize the complaint. Sorry you had to deal with this.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Our workplace discrimination policies include vendors, contractors etc. If it happened here, I’d report it in exactly the same way as I’d report an employee’s behaviors. In this case, by reporting it after the day of training.

      And those coworkers that “thanked” you need a bit of retraining themselves, to say the least. How demeaning!

      1. PollyQ*

        Our workplace discrimination policies include vendors, contractors etc.

        As does the law in the United States. Your employer is responsible for providing a discrimination & harassment-free workplace, regardless of where the bad behavior might be originating from.

      2. Zap R.*

        I know, right? The term “microaggression” gets thrown around a lot but that sounds like a textbook microaggression.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          IMHO the rant to Week 2’s class about someone in Week 1’s class is way beyond microaggression.

          1. Zap R.*

            Oh no, I was referring to the “thank you for not making a scene” response that OP received from their grandboss.

    4. just another queer reader*

      I’m so sorry this happened to you.

      If it were me, I think my first step would be to identify the person who’s in charge of managing the relationship with the software company and who set up the training. I would set up a meeting with them, tell them that the trainer was unable to respectfully work with trans people, and ask that this trainer not be asked back again and to share with their manager why not.

      This does hinge upon the software person at your company being an ally…

      You might also reach out to your LGBTQ group, DEI department, HR, or anyone else who’s solid on trans issues. Good luck.

      1. pancakes*

        I like and agree with your first paragraph, but if that person isn’t an ally, I think this is worth reporting directly to the software company anyhow. They should know their trainers are behaving this way. It’s not acceptable. I don’t see why it would be unethical or overkill to report that the people they’re sending to lead trainings are being transphobic towards trainees. None of us should have to encounter that at work.

        1. pancakes*

          Maybe I should add, if the trainers don’t want reports of their transphobia getting back to higher-ups at the software company, they’re free to knock it off any time. They didn’t need to behave the way they did. They chose to, and I doubt the company’s DEI policies require someone on the receiving end of discriminatory behavior to attempt to address it on their own before any action can be taken. That would defeat quite a bit of the purpose of having policies in the first place.

  56. Millie Mayhem*

    One of the letters that was written yesterday (#4 about the job candidate who may have ghosted) brought up a good question: how much time is typical/acceptable for a job candidate to get back to a prospective employer about a job offer?

    If you’ve been a hiring manager, do you perceive a delay of more than a couple of days as a potential lack of interest from a candidate? If you’re a candidate, do you feel pressured to the respond to the prospective employer ASAP?

    I realize answers may differ based on the industry, position and hiring process… but this particular letter seemed to inspire a lot of debate, and I’m wondering if I should adjust my expectations.

    1. JumpAround*

      On the employer side it depends on a couple of factors for me. If we call and we get no response and then try to get in contact with you a second time and get no response, you’ve got a week in my mind unless you’ve given us some type of warning that you will be unreachable.

      If you do respond to our offer and it drags on a little longer because you’re reviewing then I may be able to give you a little longer. Like if you get an offer on Wednesday and ask for the weekend I probably won’t follow up until Tuesday and then give you another couple of days to respond.

      This can all change and get shorter if I have a second choice candidate who’s operating on a shorter time frame, then I may push on the candidate who’s not getting back to me and set a hard deadline

    2. Mid*

      I think time of year matters a lot, and speed of your hiring process. The longer/slower your process is, the more time you should give candidates to respond. If it’s summer or near the winter holidays, you should give more time to respond.

      In general, I think a business week with at least 2 attempts at contact via 2 methods is enough. My email keeps acting up and putting random things into spam, even from people I regularly send and receive emails from. Last year, I had an issue with my cell phone not getting any incoming calls or voicemails, but I could call out and text just fine. There was some issue with my SIM card, but I didn’t notice for multiple weeks because I call out more than I get calls, and it took a week of working with my cell provider to get it resolved. So, I think 2 methods of communication and one business week is a good rule of thumb, it accounts for holidays and emergencies and tech issues.

  57. Mimmy*

    This is a long shot, but I have a question for educators who incorporate keyboarding instruction in their curriculum. I’m mainly thinking of those in K-12 but anyone else who teaches keyboarding are welcome to chime in. The information I give is going to be vague because it may otherwise be too identifying.

    What I’m specifically looking for are people who have used a platform called Typing Club with their students and can share their experiences; I am slowly getting to BEC stage with this thing.

    I currently teach keyboarding to adults in a vocational rehabilitation training program using Typing Club (other computer skills are taught too, but that falls to other staff). Anyone can use it, but there is also a “school” edition – that is what I use (a handful of other staff within my agency use it as well). Has anyone else ever used Typing Club with their students? We have been using it for about 3-4 years, and I’m finding it’s becoming less and less user friendly. The information in the Help Center seems to be woefully out of date and the settings are a little confusing. Getting help from other staff has not helped.

    1. Bad Typer*

      I teach computers to the littles. I like typing.com better. More user friendly and I could control in settings different items like no backspacing, etc.

    2. GlazedDonut*

      When I taught middle school, we used Typing Club. However, we didn’t do it with a whole lot of oversight–just checks every so often to see who was progressing. For the most part, the kids seemed to adapt quickly and didn’t have many issues.
      I know we looked around at different options and Typing Club was the best option for us/our setting.
      I grew up on Mavis Beacon so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  58. Lost in Nonprofitland*

    A former intern from three years ago, at a past nonprofit job, tracked down my new work email and told me she had put me down as a reference for a x-country job, and was just giving me a heads’ up that the new job may be calling me.

    While I tell most interns that they can use me as a reference, this particular intern was decent enough, but unsatisfied with the internship enough, that–instead of going to me with her problems so we could resolve them, she went to her college supervisor and essentially bullied that person to get her a new internship at another location. This action essentially cut the second half of her internship in half, and leaving us shorthanded for classes she was supposed to be assisting with.

    I’m very bothered by the lack of professionalism displayed here. I like to be given a heads’ up when I give references, not be told that someone is expecting a reference from me. How do I tell her kindly but firmly that THIS IS NOT OKAY?

    1. Nicosloanica*

      I would say clearly, “actually, since I didn’t supervise all of your internship, I’m not able to serve as a reference for you. You will probably want to contact the employer and provide the name of the other supervisor.” This is actually kinder than what you could do, which is be a bad reference for her. So you’re actually being extremely fair by declining.

    2. Nope*

      Hi, Intern,

      Our time together was so brief and so long ago I’m afraid I won’t be a good person to use as a reference.

      Best of luck in your job search,

      XX

    3. PollyQ*

      I’d take a slightly harder stance: “[Intern], when you left us abruptly in the middle of the session without even trying to resolve any issues, you caused us to be shorthanded for the rest of the session. For that reason, I can’t give you a positive reference.”

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I think I would say something like this. “Oh, I wish you’d reached out to me before you did that. You left in the middle of your scheduled internship without attempting to resolve any problems, which left us scrambling. If you’d contacted me first, I’d have advised you at that point that I would give an honest reference about our experience with you and that you’d probably have better outcomes from finding another option.”

        1. Mid*

          Same. Because the intern is presumably still fairly new to the working world, I think it’s kindest to explain why you don’t want to be a reference and give some general feedback on references. You don’t need to engage beyond one email, but spelling out norms is a huge kindness to everyone. The intern likely 1. doesn’t have a lot of other reference options and 2. doesn’t necessarily know that their approach was unprofessional (in both leaving and how they asked for a reference–my school always encouraged people to talk to their college advisor about issues with internships, so she likely thought it was the proper approach at the time, and no one ever really taught me that you have to ask a person to be a reference before you list them or how to figure out who would be an appropriate reference.)

    4. AnonyAnony*

      Can you clarify: are you asking how to give her feedback on the way she approached you, or are you asking how to reply to her request (or demand!) for your reference? Or both?

      If it’s the former: I would suggest don’t bother. It’s not worth it. She is no longer your intern.
      If it’s the latter: I agree with the replies.
      If it’s both: see above.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Honestly, I would just not respond. Not to her, not to any request for a reference. If she actually reaches out to you in a reasonable manner you might want to deploy some of the language others suggested, but to me her high-handed e-mail doesn’t warrant a response.

    6. RagingADHD*

      “Hi Intern,
      I know you are still fairly new to the workforce, so I wanted to let you know that it is customary to ask a former supervisor whether they are willing to serve as a reference, rather than merely telling them you have already listed them. That way they can let you know if they could give you an unequivocally positive recommendation.

      Given the way your internship ended, it is probably not in your best interest to continue using me as a reference. While your work in the beginning was satisfactory, the fact that you did not complete the internship would naturally factor into any reference I might be called upon to give.”

  59. Nicosloanica*

    Let me preface by saying I want to be a good employee. I have a job that is very deadline oriented, but I am part time – I do not work Mondays. Because I am part time, I sacrifice salary, and I get absolutely no benefits, just an hourly rate (although I am paid a salary wage that is less than the full salary I would earn as full time). Because my job is deadine-oriented, it seems that many things end up being due on a Monday. Because of this, I have to push it back so it’s due “for us” on Friday when I leave for the day. I am experiencing a lot of guilt and maybe some pushback about this. People who haven’t reviewed the document and need to by Friday PM would like the extra time to review, and they’re available to review on Monday morning – all that would be required is … for me to log in Monday and submit the thing when they’re done. I really don’t want to do this. I feel that it would creep into more and more time, particularly if I log in on Monday and it turns out that new questions were raised or revisions requested. My though is, if it’s so important to give yourself more time to review, you would also need to volunteer to submit the task in the system (using a login I would have to provide). I don’t actually have to be the one to submit, it’s just part of my job description. Can anyone help me think of a kind and respectful way to phrase this? Basically, their failure to do their part in time can’t be allowed to create a “solution” where I have to work unpaid hours.

    1. Nicosloanica*

      Also note, I did rotate the day that I have off at one point so that it was less often on the day that things were due – it didn’t work, as it just pushed us back to have the same problem with other things that were due the day I had off now. So it’s not only that Mondays are an exceptionally inconvenient day to have off.

      1. Ashley*

        I think this is a discussion to have with you manager. If people want more time they have to submit it themselves on Monday.
        Is it possible this role should really be full time and that is part of the issue? And maybe not really a 40 hour week but they are willing to pay someone to sit around and wait for information to be sent to you.

        1. Nicosloanica*

          Yeah, it’s an annoying scheduling issue because a) the org is poor and also cheap so they wouldn’t want to pay what it would cost to have someone of my caliber full time and b) this specific job I have isn’t really 40 hours a week of work, so it would be combined with other stuff that I wouldn’t want to take on. I think what would be most convenient for the job is if I offered 40-plus hours of “availability” but only booked the 25 hours I’m paid for that I actually work. But for obvious reasons I’m not interested in doing that. So I need some polite and professional scripts to set and maintain boundaries. I can’t figure out how to say “if you want to have until Monday to work on this, you need to be the one to submit this in the system” knowing that they will probably be nervous about being the one to submit and it makes more sense for my role to do it. Or just, “sorry you didn’t get to this before the end of my work week, I’m going to go ahead and submit it today.”

    2. Violas are blue*

      Do not give up your day off “just to submit “ for the reasons you stated. Is there someone else who can submit on Mondays?

      I’d have a prominent notification in my email signature that I do not work on Mondays as a reminder to all my coworkers so when these tasks are assigned, they’ll already know.

    3. Ranon*

      Friday and Monday deadlines are both terrible. Maybe I’m a rebel but I’d lead the charge for Thursday deadlines, which are actually civilized. Then folks can procrastinate until Friday if procrastination makes them happy for some reason.

      If the deadline is always Friday and this is a recurring process, folks don’t actually get extra time on Monday, Monday time just steals time from the next step.

    4. Ama*

      You should under no circumstances be working extra hours you aren’t paid for to accommodate your coworkers. I agree with other commenters that you should ask your boss for help with this — make it clear that the coworkers who are failing to meet the Friday end of day deadline are expecting you to be available submit on Monday even though you don’t work that day and ask for boss’s help either insisting on their submitting by Friday or designating someone else to submit on Monday when you aren’t available.

      1. Nicosloanica*

        They’re not really *expecting* me to, they’re just sort … I don’t know. I’m aware that it would be great for the org if I could accommodate that and would probably be a win-win for the product and for my coworkers so I feel a little guilty sticking to my refusal to do it.

        1. HoundMom*

          Do not feel guilty. You are correct — it would become one more little thing and one more little thing. Companies and coworkers only respect the boundaries you set. I was part time for a dozen years and it was the only way to keep that schedule. There will always be something you could do to “help out”.

    5. Zee*

      “As you know, my position is part-time with strictly limited hours, and I am not scheduled to work on Mondays. In order for me to submit [whatever it is], I need your feedback by [specific time] on Friday. If you prefer to have the extra time to review, I’m happy to show you how to do the submission process so you can submit it on Monday.”

      Talk to your boss to make sure they reinforce this with the other employees.

  60. Chidi has a stomach ache*

    So, I’m trying to transition out of education into another sector. I was an academic, moved to secondary ed, and now I’m looking for jobs that are in the vein of program/project development and management, which I did a lot of in graduate school. But even after using Alison’s advice for resumes, I’m having a hell of a time getting any callbacks, and my network is of limited help because the people I know best are all still in higher ed/secondary ed. So I have two questions:

    Pros/Cons of a functional resume when you’re trying to shift career sectors?

    How real is the so-called “secret job market” — the idea that most jobs are never posted and come through networking and aren’t posted? I’m trying to do multiple informational interviews a week to grow my network, but once my school contract starts up on Aug 15, I can’t give 30hrs a week to applications + networking, and I’m trying to figure out how best to spend my very limited time for job hunting.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’m not a fan of functional resumes — unless they are done exquisitely (and I think I’ve only seen 1 or 2 of those in my career counseling career) they chop up your experiences, toss away any context that makes them comprehensible, and make it look like you’re hiding something.

      Focus on reading A LOT of job postings (and A LOT of LinkedIn profiles of people who do those jobs). Figure out what things you’ve done that look like those jobs.

      Headline your resume with the job you want.
      Bullet underneath the things that are most relevant to the employer for this posting.

      Then tell your work history from the new employer’s point of view, not the old employer’s. So — “developed the history curriculum for 7th and 8th graders” is less exciting to the new folks as “worked on a cross-departmental team to develop materials to be used by colleagues in a variety of settings.”

      If you’re struggling with revising — take LITERALLY 50% of the words out. However you want to do that. Then, with the new job posting in front of you, go back and add 25% more back in, but only stuff that relates to the new job. That shakes out a lot of the cobwebs.

      1. Chidi has a stomach ache*

        I mean, I am doing all these things already! I’ve gone through nth iterations of my resume and actively eliminated/rewritten references to teaching. But my degree/PhD is very non-traditional for the area I want to move into, and my job titles are very obviously teacher titles. I think in a lot of places I’m getting booted from the ATS systems for that alone. My hope was that a functional resume would help make the work I did with program development in graduate school more prominent (right now it’s my earliest experience, so it’s at the bottom of the resume instead of the top).

        1. Mac*

          You write that your grad work is at the bottom of your resume. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what Aspiring Chicken Lady meant, but I think maybe that’s why she recommended those initial bullet points right below the header? So the body of the resume is still reverse chronological, but before you even get to it you’ve highlighted your most relevant skills? (If I’m way off base, someone let me know! I’m also in resume-revising mode, so any and all tips about formatting nuances like this are very, very interesting to me right now!)

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Alison answered the “secret job market” question in 2016. You can find her answer if you search “is it true that 80% of job openings are never advertised, last-minute meetings, and more.” The answer is that the “secret job market” is mostly fake, but there is some discussion in the comments section of fields where it’s true (entertainment, for example).

  61. Boymom*

    Removed because this is the work thread (but you can post it on the weekend non-work thread tomorrow if you’d like).

    1. Annony*

      It really depends on what you want to do and where the degree is from. If you want to go into consulting, an MBA from a top business school is the best way to get there. Otherwise you probably want to wait until getting an MBA will help with a promotion and hopefully you are at an employer who will help pay for it.

    2. smeep248*

      I have a specialized MA and didn’t want to jump through the hoops for licensure, etc. so I never used it. When my job started paying for degrees I decided “why not” and chose an MBA as kind of a generic option. I finished a 19 month program in September and landed a new job with a 33% pay increase. So, there is a point. I think it just depends on “why” and “what” for you in particular.

    3. OtterB*

      It depends on what you want it to do for you. In, the distant past, I had a technical undergrad degree, but when I began working, I decided I wanted to know more about business in general. So I went part time for an MBA (company paid tuition). I never used it in the sense of doing work that required an MBA, but I found what I learned helpful in understanding budgets, organizational behavior, etc., in my other roles. This is different from wanting an MBA for consulting or similar or to raise your salary with your current employer.

  63. Mimmy*

    I also wanted to post and thank everyone for their help last week with all my questions about remote work and withdrawing candidacy. I did end up withdrawing from the school I interviewed with, and the Hiring Manager emailed back saying she completely understood and wished me luck. I did apply to a fully online school but have yet to hear back. There’s a teeny tiny chance things will change at my current job, but I’m not putting my eggs in that basket!

    I’ve had several informational interviews this week that have all been helpful. Now I just have to keep the momentum going and take advantage of the resources available to me.

    Please keep the good vibes coming!!

  64. NoSugar*

    My husband is waiting to hear back on a job and I’m hoping for some outside perspective here. He works in finance and a small, out of state company reached out to him back in February about an open position they had. It was a great match for his skillset and interests, and he went through several rounds of interviews (with what I would consider longer than normal periods of time in between – 2-3 weeks at a time) with the team, upper management, etc. Although the process felt very drawn out, they were transparent with him about their timeline and he was fine to go along since he want really job searching and they had found him.

    Fast forward to early June, when they flew him out for a full day of in-person meetings and interviews. He felt it went extremely well, and their director of HR said they would hopefully be in touch in the next week or two. She was going on a 3 week sabbatical and told him to reach out to a different director with any questions in her absence.

    After radio silence for two weeks, husband reached out to the director, who said there was still no update on the position as they were focusing on hiring for another role. One week later, husband reached out to HR director, thinking she would be back from her trip, but it has been almost a week and still nothing. It seems very out of character for them to ghost him, but it’s also seeming beyond ridiculous at this point – he’s been effectively interviewing since February! Has anyone had an experience like this lately?

    1. Millie Mayhem*

      I’m fairly new to the hiring side of things, but I can tell you that interviewing/hiring often seems to take longer than you would think! Follow-up question: when the HR Director said she would be on leave for 3 weeks, did she indicate to your husband he would hear from someone else while she was away? Or did she just instruct him to reach out if any questions come up?

      1. WellRed*

        This. She told him to reach out with questions but that doesn’t sound like what he did. Also, I wouldn’t reach out to someone knowing they had just come back like the day before. Give people a little more time. They know he’s interested but they are gonna move on their timeline.

  65. GarlicMicrowaver*

    Anyone else still thinking about last Friday’s thread about the baby in the car? Hoping for an update and a positive outcome for all involved.

    1. Zap R.*

      The discourse about the baby in the car got super weird but yes, I am also still thinking about the baby in the car.

      1. GarlicMicrowaver*

        It did… and I got very upset. Think Allison turned off commenting to that entire thread. Or maybe it was just me because I told one of the commenters to stop gloating about their non-US parental leave policy.

  66. Tara R.*

    My company had layoffs this week and almost half of my team is gone. :(

    We’ve been encouraged to reach out to our networks and help as much as we can. I’m pretty junior so I don’t have a huge “network”, but I am friendly with a couple of bosses/HR people from previous internships who I could reach out to. But I’m not exactly sure how! Do I just send a short note with some small talk, mention the layoffs, and ask if they’re hiring & would be interested in getting in touch with my teammates? Do I send over my affected teammates’ contact info, or do I offer the other way around?

    And while all of my now-former teammates were good at their jobs and pleasant to work with, there are a few were outstanding and who I would particularly recommend. Is there a way to highlight them without sounding like I’m being down on the others?

    Finally, the rumblings that I’ve heard is that you lose out on some of the generous severance package upon starting a new position. I’m not sure if people will be holding off on their job hunt because of that, and I don’t know if that affects how I should be approaching this?

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Have you talked to your teammates yet? They should be the ones initiating the conversation, which will address your last point. If they do ask you for help, you can say that you have connections at companies A and B and ask them to let you know if they apply for any openings with either. Then, once they have applied, you could reach out to your contacts by saying you are aware that your colleague applied and you wanted to just drop a good word in as you’ve worked with them for X amount of time (and then give a sentence or two max about why you think they’d be a great fit). I would not focus on comparing them to other people but would instead just focus on being truthful about your experience with them.

      1. Tara R.*

        I had a chance to say goodbye to all of them, and most of them mentioned something about letting them know about any opportunities that I’m aware of. A lot of hiring in my field happens more through word of mouth and recruiters reaching out rather than job listings, especially as you get more senior; a lot of times there are roles they’re basically always willing to hire someone excellent for, even if it’s not posted because the need isn’t currently urgent.

    2. PollyQ*

      the rumblings that I’ve heard is that you lose out on some of the generous severance package upon starting a new position

      I’ve never heard of a corporate severance package that was in any way contingent on an laid-off employee staying unemployed, unless perhaps the if the new position is with the same company. Which is not to say it’s never happened or that it’s not happening here, but I’d try to get something official on the subject rather than depending on gossip.

      1. Mill Miker*

        Even if there’s no contractual penalties or anything, one could argue that if the company gives you something like 3 months of pay as severance, and you start a new job two weeks after being laid off, that you’re “losing out” on several weeks of paid time off. I mean, you’d still have the money, but there’s potentially an opportunity for a real break being lost if you rush things.

  67. Zap R.*

    So, let’s say theoretically that you are a Receptionist (doing the job of an Office Manager) at a 200-person company. Let’s imagine that said company are in the process of downsizing to a new smaller, office space to accommodate remote/hybrid work. If none of the hybrid employees are coming in to clean out their desks or pack up their departments and management is telling their teams that they don’t need to help with the move, how does our theoretical Receptionist sort through and then pack up 200 employees’ accumulated crap, ship it the new office, and then unpack and set up the new office all by herself?

    Please theoretically help me. I am so theoretically tired.

    1. Annony*

      If they are telling people that they don’t need to help with the move, then they better be hiring a company to come pack everything up and move it to the new space. My team recently moved one building over and that is what happened. We moved anything we were especially concerned about ourselves, but everything else was packed and labeled by a moving company.

      1. Millie Mayhem*

        Agreed! I have managed moves on my own, but for much smaller organizations (like 10 people – not 200!). Even then we hired outside vendors to help with packing and organizing because I had so many other things I needed to focus on for the move.

        It should not be up to the receptionist to do all of this on her own. If her manager hasn’t offered any kind of assistance or solution, sounds like a discussion with the manager needs to happen ASAP before the poor receptionist loses it. :(

      2. Zap R.*

        We hired a moving company but they will not be packing. They dropped off 250 bins that I and a handful of IT people must pack and label ourselves.

        I was not involved in the hiring of the moving company.

        1. Indigo Five Alpha*

          But isn’t your theoretical job to, like, be a receptionist?! How can you do that if you’re theoretically packing 200 desks?!

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      The receptionist can recommend some moving companies and perhaps that the departments who choose not to pack themselves can take the hit on their budgets.

      The receptionist should NOT make themselves available for work on this scale.

      (Or should do a really terrible job of it, if they are forced to. And charge the company OODLES of overtime.)

    3. PollyQ*

      Unless directly ordered to do so, the theoretical receptionist does none of that work, and lets the other employees know that anything that’s left in their desks will be thrown out before the move. Or, as @Annony suggests, you hire professional movers to do the job. (Are you sure they’re not planning to?)

      1. Zap R.*

        They’ve hired budget movers, which means they will move stuff but not pack or unpack it. I was not involved or consulted during that particular decision-making process.

        1. PollyQ*

          How much do you like this job? This is a ridiculous amount of labor to ask one person to perform (see my comment, above), presumably while your other tasks still need doing. I’d think hard about job-hunting.

      2. PollyQ*

        Further thoughts: I used to work places where we moved cubicles with some frequency, and the way it worked was that they’d give us a stack of boxes, which we’d load up with all our stuff and then slap labels on everything including our computer equipment, and then the movers would handle actually picking up the stuff and getting it to where it needed to be. Once we were at our new cubicles, we were likewise responsible for unpacking. It wasn’t an enormous amount of effort, but it was at least 2 hours per person. If Theoretical Receptionist were responsible for doing this for 200 employees, it would probably be at least 400 hours of labor, or 10 full-time weeks. Does Theoretical Employer really intend TR to be using that much of her time that way?

        1. Zap R.*

          This is awesome framing and I think it’s what I’m going to use when I talk to my boss. Thank you!

    4. Mid*

      As someone who just went through something similar but on a much smaller scale, I’d say you tell people they have to pack and unpack their own desks, or their personal belongings will be going into a dumpster. And do not budge on this. If anyone tries to make it your responsibility, you thank them for volunteering to take the task on, and absolutely do not do it.

      It is absolutely not reasonable or possible for one person to manage this amount of work. 200 offices/desks is well into “hiring a professional” territory. If your company pushes back on this, I’d break down the number of hours it will take you (I’d budget an hour per desk if it’s a cubicle situation, 2-3 hours per larger office, and 6-8 hours for each common space that has stuff in it like books/vases/artwork/utensils/etc. This might sound like an excessive amount of time, but by the time you get boxes and packing materials, label everything, wrap delicate items, move the boxes out of your own way, run to the store to get more tape/boxes, it adds up very very quickly), as well as the cost of your OT pay since you can’t do your full time job at the same time as being a full-time mover/packer, the potential liability of having someone who isn’t a trained or insured mover/packer dealing with valuable objects and potentially injuring themselves, etc. What happens if the poster in Bob’s office gets ripped and it turns out that said poster was actually a signed print by Van Gogh himself and now Bob wants the company to compensate him for the value of the damaged item? What happens if you get injured packing things because you aren’t a professional and this is far outside the normal scope of duties? It is likely far cheaper for them to hire professional office packers and movers, not just the budget movers, when they account for the cost of man hours, OT, and liability they’re assuming by having you do it. And even if it isn’t cheaper, they still should not do it because it’s an insane, unreasonable thing to ask of a single person, or even a team of people who aren’t professional movers.

      I had to pack and move 9 personal offices plus the general office spaces by myself and it was horrific and I will absolutely quit my job before I ever do it again. I was also in charge of overseeing all the renovations to our office. I worked multiple 80+ hour weeks in a row and burnt out so badly I had to take 3 months off of work and still haven’t fully recovered. People were always upset with how I handled their precious items (even though they were repeatedly told to take things out of their offices if they valued them), how I didn’t magically know that the vase in Abby’s office actually belonged to Carl and how dare I put the vase back into Abby’s office when it clearly should have been in Carl’s office, how the crappy movers we hired broke glass on multiple pictures because we didn’t pay for them to be wrapped up and used a singular old t-shirt and thought that was adequate protection for a 5′ wide framed antique map, how I didn’t know what random piles of paper were actually trash and shouldn’t have been saved and how the one giant stack of files should have been separated into two stacks because they were clearly for two different things despite being in one giant stack for the last year, how I clearly switched people’s identical office chairs around and it’s so rude of me to expect people to adjust the two little levers on their chairs instead of magically knowing whose chair is whose, and so on and so forth. And that was just 9 people. 200 people? Absolutely not. No way. Even if your office has more reasonable people than mine, at least a few people will be mad about everything.

      TL;DR, refuse to take this on, tell everyone they need to get their personal belongings or it’s getting put into a dumpster on a certain date, and push hard on the not-hiring-people-to-pack part. And if you can, quit if they try and force you to do this because it is absolutely horrible and way too much work.

    5. It's Business Time*

      I would say if people do not come in and pack their items to move, then you will assume they do not want them and throw them out. Only take company owned items and I would just pack everything together and set out the bare minimum at the new desk and leave everything else for people to find and unpack.

  68. Alexis Rosay*

    What are nice ways to thank people virtually?

    I’ve had a few mentors over the past year who have really helped me out. For the most part it was nothing intensive–a couple of hours a month–but still very impactful. I usually am a big fan of handwritten thank-you cards as a way to show sincere thanks, but I don’t have any of their addresses. These folks are all more advanced in their careers than I am and don’t seem to need money so I don’t think a gift card would be right. Writing a note on Slack feels too informal.

    Thoughts? How have you been thanked virtually that felt heartfelt and sincere?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Do you have their email addresses? Not quite as personal as a handwritten card, but more formal than a slack note.

    2. Irish Teacher*

      It wasn’t thanking me, but I once got such a lovely e-mail from a coworker that I saved it as a work document as well as in my e-mails.

    3. Girasol*

      Hand written notes are especially good, but if you can’t use one, perhaps an email that expresses specifically why something that they did is appreciated. That is, not so much “You’re terrific!” as “You groomed extra llamas on Friday when Wakeen was sick. None of our customers’ llamas had to be rescheduled and I greatly appreciate that!”

  69. Kayem*

    Regarding employers keeping workers from talking about pay. Are supervisors exempt from talking to their supervisees about pay? My employer, who hires me as a seasonal employee, has stated that we’re no longer allowed to discuss anything related to pay with our temp supervisees. Even if they ask whether they will be paid overtime pay for overtime hours. We’re supposed to direct them to HR. They’re not stopping the supervisees from talking amongst themselves or those in my role from talking amongst ourselves, I just am not sure how that works between people in my role and those right below me.

    It’s frustrating because I can answer a lot of simple questions that’s more convenient for the supervisees than call the HR line and wait on hold for however long, but employer said they don’t want the supervisees to get upset if they’re told the wrong information. Or if supervisees try to force something by stating one of us told them the info, regardless of whether they’re lying, the employer doesn’t want to get into a they said/they said sort of situation.

    1. PollyQ*

      IANAL nor any kind of expert, but my understanding is that the US legal protection for employees to discuss their salaries only applies to rank-and-file, not management or supervisors, so your company’s rules are legal, even if misguided.

      However, I’m not entirely sure they are misguided in this case. If you were a “permanent” manager of these employees, then you would be the logical person to be discussing pay, raises, etc., with your reports. But given that you’re temp/seasonal, and perhaps there are largish numbers of people in that role coming & going in a short period of time, that they don’t want to take the time to train you or make 100% sure that you’ve got the info correct.

    2. Annony*

      I think the laws protecting employees ability to talk about pay are aimed at protecting their ability to talk about their own pay to others. You are talking about being able to relay information about the employees pay to them. It does make sense for the company to want to make sure that the information the employees receive is correct. As far as I know there is no law that would force the company to allow you to relay information about their own pay to them. Most likely this rule came into effect after another supervisor gave someone incorrect information.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      This sounds like it is specific to your company, and it sounds like a supervisor gave someone incorrect information that resulted in the employee getting paid less than they expected. I don’t think that has anything to do with the NLRB rules — which allow people to compare how much they make — this sounds more like making sure that people have the correct information about their OWN pay, which they would get from HR.

    4. Kayem*

      Okay, thanks for the confirmation. I was thinking it was something like the three of you described, but I wanted to make sure I wasn’t misunderstanding. The nature of all these roles is that we switch on and off depending on the project. So when the next project starts, I might be in the supervisee’s role or any other step up or down from where I am now. I’m now the supervisor to many colleagues from previous projects, and many of my supervisees just came off projects where they were the project manager, which makes the lines often confusing.

      The situation I’m in now is that they just extended operations two hours past the usual closing time, plus extra over the weekend, all optional extra hours for anyone who wants them. So I need to know who is staying late and coming in on the weekend, but half of my supervisees will only do it if it means they get paid overtime, which depends on how many hours they’ve already worked this week. I wish I could just give them a blanket “you will be paid overtime for all hours over 40 that you work this week” so they could confirm immediately than having to wait for each one to call HR and get the answer.

  70. Bibliovore*

    I think this is a work thing- not my work but I will repost tomorrow if its not appropriate.
    I hired a reputable window cleaning company- referred by my contractor, good reviews on-line. They weren’t cheap. I spoke to them on the phone and noted this was an old house with the original windows. They were very reassuring.
    Yesterday, they came on time. I spoke to the lead about the windows- my concerns that they were old and if there were any problems just skip them or come to me. I was on the porch the whole time they were there with the dogs.
    They finished the job in a timely manner.
    The lead said I need to show you something-
    He said- these windows are old, the seals are broken, the cleaning water leaked through and created drip marks between the panes. There is nothing we can do to fix this. These windows are beyond their lifespan.

    The drip marks are permanent.

    I just didn’t know what to say.
    We have had the windows cleaned numerous times over the past ten years and NEVER had this problem. (the husband was in charge of delegating this task. I have washed the ground floor ones myself and never had this happen!)
    Why didn’t this person tell me when he discovered the problem in THE FIRST window and give me the option to have them stop.
    I paid them (and tipped them, because you know Covid) and was trying not to over react (because big feelings.)

    Yes these windows are 70 years old but they are functional, they keep the wind and cold out. I had an awful experience with “modern” window replacement in my former coop. I have been told by everyone in my neighborhood, don’t let anyone talk you into replacing them.

    So now- almost every window of this midcentury modern house has permanent drip streaks running down them.
    What do I do?-
    I want to calmly call the window washing firm but I just don’t have the words.
    I am blaming myself for not standing next to them and saying show me how you plan on washing these windows.
    This issue never even occurred to me.
    (and I have big feelings because Mr. Bibliovore died last year)

    Please give me a script to speak to the management of the company.
    What is a reasonable response?

    1. irene adler*

      Yes- the work should have ceased when the problem first manifested itself. You should not be expected to quiz them on how they are going to do the work prior to the job.

      Now you have damaged windows. This needs to be remedied.
      I would call the manager or owner (I don’t know how big a company this is) and ask them to please come out and take a look at the damage done to these windows. The end result of their work is unacceptable ‘as-is”. You did inform the lead to alert you should any issues come up. Window leakage is an issue. Why didn’t they stop and point this out to you when the leaking issue first presented itself? And, ask them what they will do to remedy this.

      1. Rosie*

        “My windows were washed by you on [date] and have been damaged. The lead showed me this damage only after it occurred on all the windows even though I was available any time. I would like you to come and assess the damage and discuss with me how they can be returned to their original condition.” If they say it’s because the windows are too old etc. you can remind them that you wanted them of the problem and they could have stopped as soon as they noticed. You could also directly ask how you can work with them and their insurer to get them fixed. But I would emphasise that you want them returned to how they were before the company arrived. Good luck!

    2. ThatGirl*

      I’m sorry for your frustration. I’d just like to tell you that you can get just the glass replaced – it’s not cheap but definitely cheaper than the whole window and will preserve the frames. We did it last year.

    3. Juneybug*

      First of all, I am so sorry this happen to you. I have been praying for you over the last year for peace and comfort.
      Second, feel free to express those big feelings once the owner arrives (if you express big feelings on the phone, they might not come over). Let them see how sad/mad/disappointed you are about the windows. Let the owner know how damaging their crew was to a widow’s windows. I would let those feelings flow and use them to your advantage for possible repairs or replacements.
      Cause you know what? These “experts” damaged your property and by golly, they need to feel your emotions. Their actions should cause them grief and pain as well.
      I hope this all works out well in the end.

    4. Bob-White of the Glen*

      Sorry I’m so late to this. Do you have anyone who can be with you for support when they come over to look at the damage? A friend or relative with a reasonable cool head who can make sure you’re not abused? Much as I hate to say it, male would be better, but only if they can be silent support instead of trying to take over to fix it.

      I’m so sorry this happened to you.

  71. Anon for this…*

    Hi commentariat!

    I’ve been working at corporate tech companies for over a decade and I’m getting burned out. If you’ve transitioned to your own business, what steps helped you to succeed and what would you have done differently?

  72. Madame X*

    When as a new employee is it suitable to ask for time off (employed for less than 6 months)? Short of an emergency (illness, injury, death in the family or a court date) it seems reasonable to expect new employees to be present for the first few weeks. I’m also aware that you can negotiate time off as part of your acceptance offer if you already have a vacation planned that will occur soon after your start date. However, i can imagine a scenario where a very new employee might want to take some time off that was not anticipated prior to accepting the offer.

    Also, i’m asking about a workplace that gives employees discretionary time off which doesn’t have to be earned like PTO.

    1. Ashley*

      I think this depends greatly on if this is a junior employee or a more senior employee. At a company with use it or lost is PO you would definitely be taking time off in less then 6 months. First few weeks I understand you wanting them to be there, but we all have that dentist appointment we booked 6 months ago completely guessing on what life would look like.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      It depends on how much time off you’re talking about. If it is an occasional long weekend or day off, I wouldn’t give it a second thought, but I would give someone the side eye for taking a week or more in the first six months without having discussed it earlier.

    3. beach read*

      Anything beyond an emergency I would generally wait until the time is available in the attendance system. So, if you accrue a half day every month, you’d have time to use in a month or two. (Or however yours accrues)

  73. Andjazzy*

    I’m in a tough spot. I worked for 5 years at a company I couldn’t stand, and then was finally able to leave.

    Unfortunately, the next company was even worse. In a department of 70 they had 100% turnover in 6 months. After 8 months I was able to get out.

    My current company has been great. Unfortunately, several of the projects I was hired to work on never came to fruition for reasons that have nothing to do with me. I have probably 15 hours of work to do per week, and I’m highly specialized. There is nothing else I can work on.

    They just announced a large reorg that is aimed at my department in particular. I am getting strong vibes this won’t end well for me.

    How do I explain why I’m job hunting again after less than a year?

    1. Alex*

      I don’t think that the truth will hurt you here–just say that due to a reorg, your job is looking like it will be eliminated and you are getting out ahead of it. Has nothing to do with you personally.

      1. Weaponized Pumpkin*

        I agree, truth is the play here. (And there isn’t any other story to tell anyway!) Practice saying it until it feels as neutral as it truly is.

  74. Moonlight Wannabe*

    Hello lovely AAM community! I have a question for the future:

    Let’s just say I currently work as an architect for a design-build company. Meaning: I design the houses and show people the house designs, and we present the designs along with a contract for building the houses. My company makes the money off building houses, not off designing them. We occasionally charge money for designs, but only for larger houses or new clients who may not want a house at all, so we can get compensated for my work.

    I have a friend who wanted a house design. I do not have a non-compete as a designer with my company, but all the software I use for house design is only on my company computer. I do not have my own computer or my own software for design work. My friend wanted to know if I could do a design for them on my own, not with my company. I asked my boss if I could…he encouraged me to do it with the company. So that is what we are doing.

    With that being said, would it be unethical to ever do work “on the side” for friends, not with my company? If I wanted to do that at some point, how could I do that in an ethical way?

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      If you are using work equipment or a software license you have through work, you should not be earning income off the side. If you are using the SKILLS you gained at work on your off hours, and not company time or equipment (ie., you bought the software license yourself and installed on your personal computer), I think it’s fine.

    2. PollyQ*

      I don’t think it would be ethical to use your company’s software for a side project, but as long as there’s no non-compete, then I believe it would be fine to otherwise pick up an outside gig. If you think you’ll be doing a fair amount of freelancing, then a computer & a software package might be a good investment.

    3. Ashley*

      To do work on the side you would need to use your own resources and never company software/ resources. Also, if you are are licensed and have and kind of professional insurance to go with that and your company covers that tab you really can’t do side projects without your companies blessing since the company is the one that would be getting the costs from an insurance claim.

      1. Moonlight Wannabe*

        Very good point about licensing. I am not licensed yet and am thinking about it, but maybe if I want to shift to freelance, it would NOT be a good idea to get licensed. I have a lot to think about, thank you!

    4. TPS reporter*

      It wouldn’t be a non compete situation it’s called moonlighting. Check to see if your company has policies around this, you may have inadvertently signed in HR paperwork. Most companies would say as was mentioned that if you’re doing something on your own time with your own resources it’s okay. Your primary work cannot be affected and you can’t put yourself out there as sound this under the company name.

  75. beezus*

    I’ve been in my new job since May and I can tell it’s not a great fit for a number of reasons, so I am looking again. I am torn if I should put it on my resume for two reasons: it came with a significant title bump from my old job and I left my old job in October of last year, which makes a huge gap on my resume if I leave it off. However, I also don’t want to turn hiring managers off by seeing I’ve only been in my new role for 3 months and am already looking again. Any advice? I know if I get to the interview stage I can explain it was a newly created role and the duties on paper vs reality were not a match for my skillset or whatever…

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      This might be generational (I am Gen X) but I would stick it out for a year before looking. Well, you can look whenever but I wouldn’t start applying until you can show a year at New Job, which goes a long way to erase any stigma associated with Previous Gap of 7 months. Otherwise, as a hiring manager, it just looks…. odd. You’d have to be ready to explain the two periods in your cover letter & interview right off the bat and it draws focus away from you and your skills and strengths as a candidate.

      1. beezus*

        Yeah I’m not going to last a year in this role and I actively dislike the work and do not want to do it. I was at my old job for 7 years before a re-org. I’d really rather not get fired or continue to be miserable for another 9+ months. I genuinely cannot do it. That is why I am asking for advice.

        1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

          OK then I would leave it off entirely as PollyQ advises. It would not be awesome to kick off an interview explaining it away.

    2. PollyQ*

      October ’21 to July ’22 is not such a terribly long gap, especially with all that’s been going on with COVID & the economy. I’d leave it off your resume entirely.

      1. searching for a new name*

        The only problem I see with this is aren’t the interviewers going to ask what you have been doing in the meantime?

        1. beezus*

          That and it’s on my Linked In and it feels like it’d be a red flag if I suddenly took it off there. It sucks. I was really excited for this new job, but it’s just a really really really bad fit for me and my skills and I’d rather bail now for myself and also so they can backfill it with someone who would do a better job and enjoy it. I have learned the perils of taking a newly created role in a company in active transition that is a hot mess on the backend.

          1. Bunny Girl*

            I would leave it off your resume but don’t try to lie about it if people ask what you were doing. Just say that you are in a job now that you’ve realized isn’t a good fit because you are doing more X and were told you were going to be doing more Y. Especially since you were in your old position for so long. I have had that happen before. It happens, people get in roles they don’t like/that don’t fit/that they were straight up lied to about. As long as its not a pattern it’s not a red flag.

  76. Perkins*

    Hi there!

    I have a quick question:

    I’m in a very rural area with limited options when it comes to choosing an ISP. My current ISP is Star Communications. I just checked my download speed with speedtest.net, and it’s 4.66 Mbps. Upload is even worse.

    Is there something I can buy to boost both speeds so that my download speed is at least 20 Mbps while the upload speed is at least 5 Mbps? I’d also need a ping rate that’s under 30 and 0% packet loss.

    I need to do this to improve my chances of getting a remote job that depends on your having a fast connection.

    Thanks,
    a concerned customer

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Some of my coworkers who live in rural homes have satellite internet. I don’t know any of the details beyond that, but satellite internet may be an option where you are too, and might have faster speeds than your current ISP.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I tried Viasat and it would be great for home use. But the ping with satellite was so slow that it wasn’t useable for work, and when I added in the VPN, it slowed to 600-700 ms. I do have a cellular usb device that my work provides that works for most of what I do, and using the phone as a hot spot would be the same.

        My neighbor has switched to Ziply over phone lines (we don’t have cable or fiber) and says it is working for her, but she’s not using it for work. It’s faster than the other option for us (about the same speed you mentioned), which is what I still have.

      2. Perkins*

        That’s a good idea. I will be sure to look into that. Not sure if satellite internet is available in my area, but it’s worth looking into. Thank you.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I found that using my own modem/router, rather than the service provider’s option, gave me faster speeds. I do not know the technology behind this; perhaps a more tech-savvy person than me can explain why. But if you have the option of purchasing and using your own devices rather than the [usually crappy] options given to customers by the provider, I would try that.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        That’s about the only thing that occurred to me. You’ve got the upload/download speeds of the internet itself, plus the upload/download speed of the router (particularly if you’re using WiFi). If the latter is slower than the former, it will limit things. If the former is slower than the latter, it won’t help.

        If it’s the internet itself that’s slow, there’s not much you can do if you can’t upgrade to a faster package, or change to a different provider.

    3. Good News #4*

      You might see if you have Star Link available. I know rural small business owners in my neck of the woods who use that to gain enough up/download speed to do their work.

      Verizon sells/leases a “hockey puck” (hot spot) that can also work pretty well. Several employees at my previous job used them out of their remote/rural offices.

      1. Perkins*

        Those sound like great ideas! Someday, when I get a decent job with decent pay, I’ll be sure to check them out. In the meantime, they are too expensive for the average job. Star Link is about $500, I think.

        Didn’t Verizon recall its “hockey pucks” because they were found to be potential fire hazards?

    4. Pass the Just For Men*

      Have you done a speed test on your phone? If that has the speed you need, then a hotspot device. I think TMobile has a 5G home internet router that could be perfect for you if you have coverage:

  77. Anon Techie*

    How long does it usually take to negotiate a separation agreement? I wrote in a couple weeks ago about how I believe it to be a wrongful termination in retaliation, so the main thing I’m trying to negotiate for is to clear my name (change it to a resignation, neutral reference, etc). I don’t want to start applying for new jobs until that is cleared up because obviously it makes a big difference on explaining why I left my last job, not to mention having to check the box on applications for if you’ve ever been fired.

    I have plenty of savings so I’m not worried about the financials, but with so many tech companies doing layoffs I’m about to have a lot more competition for jobs. Plus there are some interesting ones out there now that I might miss out on.

    1. Anon Techie*

      Also, my old company is apparently trying terminate a huge portion (30-50%) of the company for cause rather than do a layoff. It seems like that’s a violation of the WARN act – is there any place to report that sort of thing? A companys suddenly putting half of its employees on PIPs with no prior documented performance issues seems rather suspicious.

  78. CC*

    Does anyone have experience taking parental leave to be a foster parent and navigating that in the workplace? My company has very generous parental leave policies, but I’m not sure what that looks like in a foster situation when you may have a child placed with you very suddenly and then potentially reunited with their parents suddenly as well. Obviously it will depend on specific company policies and guidance but I’d love to hear firsthand experiences from folks who have navigated that, especially in terms of communication with your teams/navigating the workplace as a first-time foster parent.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I have a friendly acquaintance who did this at a big local govt agency. Obviously the rules around FMLA and state/local versions thereof vary greatly, but my basic understanding is that foster to adopt placement is typically a qualifying event (which is what my acquaintance did), not sure about fostering. You’d have to talk to your HR to understand the specifics of your workplace, as well as let your boss know this is in the offing. Boss will probably ask you to improve your workflow documentation so somebody else could pick it up at a moment’s notice, which we should all be doing anyway ha ha.

    2. FosterParent at Work*

      I’ve done this. You should be entitled to parental leave with each placement (if rules are at least as generous as FMLA) but likely you will have a maximum number of hours/days/weeks. That is where the problem lies with foster care. It largely depends on the types of placements you expect (which might not be what you get!) and the age of the child(ren).

      If you get a 0-5 year old, you might have to be home with them until they get signed up for daycare or headstart – these things take time. How much depends on your county, state and sometimes private agency. You can hang out in local foster care forums/facebook groups and find out how it works there in practice, as well as asking your licensing person about how it is supposed to work in theory.

      If you get a school age child, they should continue on in their existing school if at all possible, or be enrolled in the nearest public school if it isn’t possible to stay where they were previously. (Sometimes for geography reasons, sometimes safety.) You could go back to work more quickly in this situation. I would likely negotiate partial leave – either daily after school or a few days a week – to spend extra bonding time with the child but also stretch out the available leave.

      In either case, there are a lot of meetings and appointments in the first week. Case workers, CASA, lawyers, dentists, doctors plus parental visitation. Find out how visitation works in your jurisdiction – hopefully you do not have to transport yourself (we never did.)

      If you expect lots of short term stays, that will be complicated. If you expect one, or a few, longer term stays, it is more doable. Keep an eye on how much time you have left and also run the clock on when it expires (for me, it was – 6 weeks to be used within one year of the qualifying placement.) It started over again the next year, for more placements.

      It is a crazy life but very rewarding – best of luck to you!

      1. FosterParent at Work*

        Part II – Just realized I didn’t address your bigger questions about navigating the workplace! We didn’t want to tell my boss until we were licensed and waiting for a placement call. Unfortunately, we go to the same church as my boss and I think word would have gotten back to him – not maliciously, but people talk about people! So we told him early and he was lovely about it. I confirmed with him when we were approved and waiting for a call. After approval is when I told my direct reports and others at work.

        People were really good about not asking a ton of questions and after the first child arrived, I got really good at making small comments to deflect requests for details about “what happened” to the child and their parents. Pivot to cute things about the kid and keep it light and surface to maintain confidentiality about their personal business.

        I was very, very lucky that my spouse stayed at home with the kid(s) – and had stayed at home before the kids – so I was able to do intermittent leave and balance things pretty well with minimal interruption. Though I am a woman and by virtue of my continued presence in meetings and things, I got my own dose of judgement. (Welcome to parenthood!)

        A coworker was a single foster parent and obviously she took more leave than me and her experience had more impact on the team.

        Generally speaking, I’ve found people to be supportive but clueless about the realities of foster care. It can be isolating and frustrating in that regard.

    3. CC*

      Thank you so much for sharing your experiences! This is so helpful and I genuinely appreciate it!

  80. China Charlie*

    I was offered a 2 year assignment in China in March and quickly accepted. Almost 5 months later, I finally received my visa. Departure is imminent!

    Super excited but also super nervous. Lots to do before I leave.

    Fingers crossed all goes well!

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      Please keep us periodically posted on how things go. I would really like to hear about how your new workplace solves problems, and if it’s in a way that would be different from “American” solutions.

      1. pancakes*

        I’d be down for periodic updates too. In the meantime, the BBC sometimes has interesting coverage of work culture, labor laws, etc. Recently I read about “996 work culture” and the “tang ping” trend. (I’m a much bigger fan of the latter). There’s also a book I’ve had on my list for a while called Blockchain Chicken Farm by Xiaowei Wang.

  81. Junior Dev*

    After a year away from work I got offered a job! It happened way faster than I expected, I’ve only been applying for a couple of weeks. This recruiter submitted me to a job that was supposed to have 2 interviews but they liked me so much after the first one that they decided to extend an offer right away.

    I’m really excited, kinda nervous, but I am gonna try and make a plan to deal with the stuff I’m worried about. It feels really nice to have someone be impressed by my skills.

    Thanks to Pocket Mouse and Hlao-roo who gave me tips on how to talk about my absence from work! It wasn’t a problem for anybody.

    2. Pocket Mouse*

      That’s awesome, congrats! I hope you have a smooth start and an excellent experience there!

  82. I Said Hey! (Nonny Nonny and a Ho Ho Ho)*

    What would you do? (Warning: Academia)

    Just got my contract, and noticed it saying I’m not eligible for promotion until 2024. The trouble is that by my math, I’d be eligible in 2023.
    Background: I’m in an annually-renewable contract position that one must serve in for X years before going up for promotion to the next level. My first full-time year was technically off this contract, as it was a “visiting” (emergency-fill) position. Upon getting hired the next year into the renewable line, I negotiated and got them to agree that my visiting year could count as “full time service” toward promotion. It’s even in my initial offer letter: something like “this will be your second full time year, after X years you can go up for promotion…” So that’s my math: counting that first VAP year get me to 2023…

    Present Day: This contract (plus a recent conversation with my Dean) suggests that’s not going to happen. And by signing this contract, I effectively agree to the content within it, so I’m hesitating. BUT I went back and checked last year’s contract and boom – there it is, I somehow missed it last year – “eligible for promotion in 2024.” There’s also language saying that these contracts “supercede” any prior agreements, meaning that the initial offer letter is basically moot.

    My work buddy/ person in the know of all thing political around this Uni. says to be like Elsa, let it go, and use the extra year to make the portfolio as damn solid as possible. And I think that’s the best / safest path too! BUT I can’t shake the feeling that this is worth arguing about. BUT BUT: I *really* do not want to draw the Eye of Administrative Sauron upon me for this, either, and that’s a real consideration here.

    Thoughts?

    1. PollyQ*

      I think there’s a really good chance that someone just wrote the contract on auto-pilot without taking your specific situation into account. I’d go ahead & bring it up using the “Oops, I think there’s a mistake here, let’s get it corrected before I sign” construct and you’ll probably be OK. Alternatively, you could say “I’m confused about the mismatch between my offer letter and the contract…” which is a little softer. If they really want to change the terms of their offer, at least make them say it explicitly. And yes, I do think this is a major enough issue for you to be bringing it up.

      1. I Said Hey! (Nonny Nonny and a Ho Ho Ho)*

        I appreciate that phrasing/ language softening option. I’ll ruminate on how I could slip something like that into my email reply with the signed contract attached. (I definitely do NOT want to jeopardize my appointment renewal!)

        1. PollyQ*

          I wouldn’t sign the contract if you want to change it! Once you’ve done that, you’ve lost all leverage. If you’re unwilling to take the risk that they’d renege on the offer altogether, which is not unreasonable, I wouldn’t bring up the issue at all.

          1. I Said Hey! (Nonny Nonny and a Ho Ho Ho)*

            Fair point! I’ll ponder more on this over the weekend, thanks!

    2. Annony*

      I think it depends on what you really want. Will the extra year be useful in making the promotion more likely? Or are you pretty much a shoo-in regardless? How much extra money/changed responsibilities is it? If you really want to be up for it earlier, I think you can gently push back and show the initial offer letter and see if they are willing to change the contract without much risk. They may say no, but it shouldn’t reflect poorly on you ask. I would be wary of pushing too hard given the advice you received from someone who knows the culture at the university.

      1. I Said Hey! (Nonny Nonny and a Ho Ho Ho)*

        I’m waiting to hear back from my meeting requests with some peers and mentors who’re up for promotion or just went through it to ask about details, but I am moderately confident my candidacy wouldn’t hit any snags or roadblocks, so as of right now, the extra year doesn’t feel really necessary OR that much of a bad thing to have. It’s more that I’m struggling to shake the feeling that I shouldn’t have to wait that year and that it would be wasted time somehow.

        On the other hand, it is true that I don’t want to be seen as too pushy about it, given the larger issues at play, not least of which would be needing to strictly avoid any semblance that I’m trying going “around” the Dean’s office by raising it with the higher levels to which the contracts must be returned.

        As I replied above, I’ll see if I can come up with the most innocent-sounding as possible “confused/curious” question to slip into the email in which I return my signed contract for next year, and if I get crickets, then so be it.

        I hate bureaucratic politics so dammed much.

  83. I edit everything*

    Are there any work models/jobs that have as much flexibility as freelancing but are more consistent? I’m in a weird situation where I need a lot of flexibility during the day for family/personal responsibilities, but I really need something that’s not quite so feast-or-famine.

    Every time I start looking for a “real job,” there’s some disaster that reminds me why I freelance. I can edit in waiting rooms.

    1. Ali + Nino*

      Any possibility of working as an independent contractor for a guaranteed number of hours per week/month? This is currently my set-up and I’m really grateful for the flexibility for the reasons you outlined. As long as I keep my boss apprised of my progress/whether deadlines need to be adjusted, I can put in my hours whenever I’m able. The downsides, of course, are the lack of benefits and the really high taxes, but if you’re already freelancing, you’re likely familiar with those.

    2. Lindsay*

      Probably not what you’re looking for, but my last job was running a before and after school program and the hours were split shift – I did like 7 to 9 am and then like 2:30 to 6 pm, plus some meetings/other responsibilities each week, which left a fair amount of time to do stuff during the day. However, while I did receive benefits the pay was not great at all. But it was fairly flexible in that I was free for a 6 hour chunk in the middle of the day.

  84. NaoNao*

    Has anyone else worked with their boss or leadership to transition into a more junior role when it becomes clear that the more senior role isn’t a great fit?

    5 months into a new job (not a promotion), I’m struggling. I’ve made 2 pretty serious mistakes and am genuinely not sure if it’s recoverable at this point. I’m now stressed out and anxious about messing up again to the point I’m almost certain I’ll wind up messing up again, and then it will be curtains for me!

    There’s a slightly junior role open, also reporting to my boss, that is *exactly* right for me. I’m already trained and could 100% do the work. The scope and duties are much more defined and also limited, and it would be a hugely helpful move for me. I’m willing to take a reasonable pay cut for this move.

    I’m hoping to approach my boss and say “I realize I’m not in a position to ask for favors, so this is not that–it’s an adjustment that will allow us to staff the empty role while providing a more achievable path to success for me–and allowing you to hire someone with a different skill set into the senior role.”

    My plan is to offer to keep doing most of the duties of the senior role while we look, and onboard and help that person as much as I can, while transitioning to the junior role.

    Is this…am I off my rocker here? I often have trouble determining how things will be perceived and I don’t want to come off as asking for favors or making it about me or not taking accountability or anything like that. Is this a reasonable proposal? Anyone been there?

    1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I don’t think you’re crazy for considering it. Do you have regular 1 X 1 with your boss? If so is just bring it up, but don’t mention the word favor at all, because that’s not what it is.

      I’d just be honest that the new role doesn’t seem to be a good fit, but looking at the open position, you’d think you’d excel, and be specific why you feel that way.

      However, your boss should be helping you work through the mistakes you made and how to correct/prevent them in the future. Everyone messes up, and I’ve found those are the best opportunities to grow. I think an open conversation on how things are going and the best way to move worked is needed regardless.

      1. NaoNao*

        I agree on the “working through the mistakes” at least in theory but my boss and I have talked about it and are at a loss. It’s something I have never had issues or problems with before but essentially it boils down to “calendar oversight” like misreading a meeting time or forgetting about a key meeting that was scheduled 6 weeks prior. Some of it’s tech–I wasn’t getting reminders, some of it is just pure overwhelm and lack of processes and support (long story with the key meeting issue). I have racked my brain on how to fix the mistakes but I come back to “these are the mistakes of someone who is overwhelmed and struggling in the role” not mis-judgements or training issues, unfortunately.

        But yes, we have regular 1×1’s and I’ve got a meeting scheduled to present this proposal Monday. I’m positioning it as good for the org but the bottom line in my mind privately is “either you move me into this role or you’ll be looking to fill 2 roles”.

        1. WellRed*

          I think you should approach it as Keeley says. It’s not a good fit but the other role is. The favor language feels weird to me. This is business. I also think it’s unrealistic of you to think you can do both roles if you’re already doing poorly and stressed out.

  85. Catherine*

    So about a month ago, my co-manager starting making serious mistakes, all while treating me like her direct supervisor instead of a co-manager and blaming her mistakes on suggestions I made during brainstorming sessions, and sometimes things I never actually said at all. I suspected she wasn’t going to last long.

    I was right, but it’s because she decided to resign. Apparently our boss was still trying her level best to get co-manager on the right track, because on the good days she was very organized, had lots of great ideas, and kept things running smoothly. But then on bad days she would practically fall apart from stress. I know she has some issues going on at home and I strongly suspect some kind undiagnosed or untreated anxiety disorder, but that also doesn’t excuse trying to throw me under the bus and refusing to take responsibility for her actions.

    We’re a college department and she’s also leaving the very week we start making preparations for the new semester, and I can’t help but suspect this was a deliberate move on her part.

    In any case, the end result is that I’ve been offered the sole manager position, and I’ll be supervising three full time employees and student workers this coming year. My manager is is hoping the new public focused position will help develop my career further. It’s going to be a lot to learn along with starting college classes again, but I’m feeling mostly confident with only the occasional twinge of impostor syndrome.

    So…everything seems to have ended fairly well. I do hope my co-manager finds a non-stressful job and takes steps to deal with whatever she’s going through, but to be fair, most jobs have some level of stress to them and this is really one of the least stressful work places I’ve ever been in.

  86. Yvette*

    Was there ever an update to the boss who was firing anyone who did not sign up to be tested as a possible liver donor for his brother?

  88. Mid*

    I guess I’m mostly looking for validation/a second opinion.

    I’m scheduled for a mandatory but not time-sensitive surgery in September. However, I was told (by a parent and one of my bosses) that I shouldn’t have scheduled it when I did. The boss was because he is also going to be out of the country for a work trip for part of the week I’m working remote for a month while I recover, and that means none of the support staff will be in the office for a few days (which is not actually an issue, and I already said I can come in in case of a true emergency.) We 100% do not need someone in the office at all times, even though we still operate like we do. I’ve been in this role for 3 years, so I’m very comfortable saying that there are no issues if someone isn’t physically present. And, if there for some reason was an actual emergency that could only be solved by me being in the office, I’m 15 minutes away from the office and can get there to fix it.

    The parent because I’m planning on resigning soon and only staying in my current position for the health insurance so I can get this surgery, and the parent thinks it’s crappy of me to stick around for just long enough to get an operation that I technically don’t need to get any time soon and that resigning right after surgery is inappropriate and taking advantage. Especially since I’m “demanding flexibility” that they don’t usually offer (by asking to work remote for a month post-op, which I have the ability to do, and have worked remotely on multiple occasions without issue, and technically should be doing regularly but that’s a different issue (I negotiated 2-3 remote days per week and was granted them as long as my boss isn’t out of the office or there isn’t a need for me to be in, but somehow there’s always a “need” for me to be in when I’m supposed to be remote.))

    I can technically move the date of my surgery so it doesn’t line up with the work trip, but that means moving it back by multiple months, probably into the next year (and therefore the next insurance deductible, which I’m trying to avoid.) I was lucky to get on the schedule so quickly and it was only because another person cancelled. But also, it’s not an urgent need, so I can move it without endangering my health.

    I’m like 98% sure they’re both being ridiculous, but I want to double check. Is it okay to mildly inconvenience my workplace for a non-urgent medical procedure? Am I acting in bad faith here?

    1. Pocket Mouse*

      Oh good lord. Keep your surgery date as is! What better way to demonstrate that you do not, in fact, need someone in the office 100% of the time than not have anyone in the office for a few days? And from what I can tell, your parent is just wrong about this. You’re using a benefit that’s available to you, and there is no reason to both delay a necessary medical event and shell out extra money unnecessarily for… what reason, exactly? To give your employer a few more days of work and to have a butt in a seat when that’s not actually a requirement? Do they realize that by sticking around to get the surgery, you’re giving your employer more of your labor than you otherwise would? Would your parent encourage you not to use vacation days during this period either?

      You have a plan that works. Reiterate to your boss that absolutely necessary coverage will be covered. Your parent doesn’t get to have an opinion if they’re more concerned about your employer’s bottom line than you are.

      1. Mid*

        Okay, thank you! It’s just weird sometimes to have two different parties act like *I’m* the one who is off base and makes me question my sanity slightly!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Your boss and parent are both being ridiculous. You boss because, as you said, you don’t need to physically have someone in the office so you aren’t inconveniencing the company by having your surgery in September. Your parent because health insurance is one of your benefits, so you’re not “taking advantage” of the company by getting surgery, you are using the benefits that are part of your compensation package.

      It is very much OK to mildly inconvenience your workplace for a non-urgent medical procedure. I hope the surgery goes well!

      1. Mid*

        Thank you! The whole “does someone physically need to be in the office” is a constant debate, even though we have two entire years proving that we do not actually need someone in the office every day. Someone needs to check the mail 2-3 times a week, and that’s it. Not having a butt in a seat every minute does not cause the immediate collapse of the company and society at large.

    3. Please Mark This Confidential and Leave It Lying Around*

      What is your parent’s suggestion? Don’t get the surgery, get a new job with new insurance, and then… “Oh it’s unfair to take all this time off for surgery at a new job!”

      It’s SURGERY. I am assuming you need this, if not instantly, eventually. There really is no good reason to put off surgery until it is an emergency.

      1. Mid*

        Honestly, I didn’t even dive into their logic because it felt like such a ridiculous suggestion. I think they feel that if I get this surgery (for which I will be taking off one whole workday and then working remotely, not missing months of work like they seem to think despite being told otherwise), I should stay in the job for at least another year. Especially since I was out on medical leave earlier this year (unpaid, and I was kind enough to time my mental breakdown with our slow season so no one was seriously impacted by my absence.)

        1. beanie*

          Oh my gosh, ONE DAY out, definitely don’t listen to either of them. Most of the time companies aren’t lucky enough to have any type of medical thing scheduled in advance. Seriously no one but you should have a say in when you have a medical procedure.

    4. ShinyPenny*

      Your personal health is the top priority! Get your medical care ASAP while you have coverage and an appointment! Among the many things Covid has taught us: do not take the future availability of health care for granted.
      I’m sad that your parent sees a different priority. They are not getting a gold parenting star today. I hope they generally value you the way you deserve, and that this is just a bizarre aberration.
      Regarding the “inconvenient” surgical date– it was set by the random cancellation, and anyone who suggests you should change the schedule for any reason is totally out of touch with reality.

    5. pancakes*

      “The parent because I’m planning on resigning soon and only staying in my current position for the health insurance so I can get this surgery, and the parent thinks it’s crappy of me to stick around for just long enough to get an operation that I technically don’t need to get any time soon and that resigning right after surgery is inappropriate and taking advantage.”

      They’d rather you go without healthcare you need than use the benefits you exchange labor for to obtain it? Please consider never talking to this person about anything of substance again. The weather, what’s on TV this week, fine, but their views on work, income, health, and your well-being are way, way, way off.

  89. Chairs for miles*

    Is it too much to buy and bring my own chair to the office?

    Work in a nonprofit organization for almost 2 years and my office chair is not the most ergonomic. I have a seat cushion and use a pillow for my back but I’ve been thinking to just purchase a good chair. Would it be too much to bring my own chair?

    1. Mid*

      Not at all–be comfy and healthy! Is it possible for them to budget for a new chair for you? I’m guessing no, but it never hurts to check. (Also if you buy yourself a chair, label it and make sure it’s clear that it’s your personal chair!)

    2. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      Sounds find to me, personally. Though I think i’ve seen commenters say there can be some issues with needing company approval to bring in outside furniture? Probably not the case in a smaller / NFP org but worth noting.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Make sure you’re on record for it to be purchased with your money so it isn’t a problem when you someday take it home. And be prepared for people to borrow it when you’re on vacation and not want to give it back. You may want to write your name on the bottom AND keep a picture of the receipt on your phone.

    5. Junior Dev*

      Absolutely do! This is what I have done for my back pain.

      3 pieces of advice:

      Go to a office furniture supplier with experience in helping people find furniture for good ergonomics. Ask your doctor or physical therapist who they recommend.

      Write “PROPERTY OF (your name)” on the chair. You can write it on a post-it or piece of paper and attach it with mailing tape. But if you don’t do this someone may mistakenly move the chair or borrow it to their own desk.

      Do not let other people borrow the chair. Be polite but firm about how it is your chair and needs to stay at your desk. Other people will mess with the adjustment that you need to have it fit your body well and they may break it.

  90. VeryAnon*

    In the USA, at a new job, working from home. I used to have the TV on as background noise (usually HGTV), but now I have a probably irrational fear that the company I work for might somehow be spying on me (through the work laptop?) I’m not trying to “watch TV instead of working”, The background noise is soothing. What do you think?

    1. PollyQ*

      I suppose it’s just barely possible that an employer might try something like this, but regardless, you can disable the microphone manually on your laptop.

    2. Mid*

      Disable your mic and use an external one if you need to have video calls. The odds are very *very* low that your employer is doing it, but if it worries you, it’s an easy fix.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      If you aren’t really listening to it, and just want background noise, change it to an all-news station, C-Span, or something they won’t think is “watching TV.” Alternatively, I have a friend who uses classical music as background noise – again, no one would think you are ignoring work if they hear it.

    4. The Prettiest Curse*

      If you want background noise that can’t be mistaken for a TV show, try YouTube videos of soothing beach sounds or the Monterey Bay Aquarium beach cam. You can loop both for your whole working day. There are plenty of other background noise videos on YouTube too, and many are 8 hours long so you can play them all day.

      1. pancakes*

        I love these channels that have, like, 8 hour long videos of soothing scenery, and often have them on during the day. Will link to some separately.

      2. pancakes*

        Spring walk through Vancouver Island with bird sounds – https://youtu.be/BX6MtPPwdQk

        “Attic on the beach,” with fireplace (this one is CGI but no worse off for that) – https://youtu.be/5FlR6jvcTfA

        Rambalac – this guy just walks around Japan and it’s wonderful – https://youtube.com/c/Rambalac

        river campfire – https://youtu.be/47IUPn2dVvs

        a fave bird feeder cam – https://youtu.be/N609loYkFJo

        And/or put a piece of washi tape over your laptop mic. Can’t hurt, I suppose.

  91. AlloyAlexis*

    I just started a new job this week after a months-long and difficult job search. The salary and benefits are all well beyond what I was hoping for. But my background is exclusively with tiny organizations and now I’m at a much bigger and much more corporate place. And this is my first 100% remote role.

    The onboarding and first tasks are going well. My boss is also hands-off. I haven’t been abandoned! She’s just very busy and is trusting me to get my first tasks done mostly independently while she waits for more training materials that will come next week. If I need any tools or info I ask and get them. I’ve never had this level of trust from day one.

    I’m feeling very overwhelmed emotionally. Like I somehow don’t deserve this good position I’ve gotten myself into, or that I won’t be able to measure up to high corporate standards. Boss and I don’t have much of a rapport yet, obviously. The other coworkers are kind but very busy. Maybe I’m a little lonely?

    Has anyone else been in this position before? The weird transition between tight-knit small jobs to a huge corporate gig? I know that part of this is first-week jitters and the result of a weird/tragic past year but I don’t have a reference level for what’s “normal.” Some of my friends would say “you got this, #girlboss! Yaaas! Slayyy!” but that’s not exactly helpful, lol.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      It’s normal to feel a little lonely at a new job, even when you’ve moved from one huge corporate gig to another. At your old job (small company or large), you knew all your coworkers and here everyone is new. Accept that you’ll feel a little nervous, a little undeserving, and a little lonely for the first few weeks on the job. Check in with yourself after a month and ask if you’re feeling more confident in the role and more connected with your boss and coworkers.

    2. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Kinda in a similar position (see my post early in the thread) My last job was at a small company. We were remote but not until after COVID, so I had already established the relationships.

      New Job is fully remote for a very large company, most are in a different time zone. One thing that has helped is weekly check ins with my boss, but also with a few people on my team, sometimes to just get to know each other. Don’t be afraid to reach out and ask to set some time up to learn about what they do, ask questions on how their role interacts with their’s.

      And take it one day at a time! You know more today than you did yesterday. Before you know it it will all come together.

    3. Perpetual Job Searcher*

      Omg yes, I could have written this. I’m not fully remote, but when I do go into the office I don’t work with anyone there. I’ve not met my boss or team in person. I am constantly wondering if I’m “good enough” to take this on, and for the first time in my life I’m worried about the 90 day probationary period. This is also my first “huge corporate role” (coming from an agency that serviced similar corporations). So I feel you!! Wish I had advice other than just keep swimming…. new jobs are stressful in the very best of circumstances.

    4. Former Curator*

      I’ve been where you are. I went from a tiny non-profit (three staff members + volunteers) to a huge non-profit (2500 staff!) a year and a half ago, working mostly remotely. The biggest change for me was going from being the person who wrote the procedures to the person who had to follow them. (Side note: why do so many organizations hate documenting procedures??? I don’t understand it!) I was very lucky that my new organization has a culture of being available and helpful. I was able to connect with colleagues in similar roles, but different departments, and leveraged some the “ask me if you have any questions!” offers into work friendships.

      It’s going to take a little while to get used to it, but you got this!

  92. To LLC or not to LLC?*

    Looking for some pros / cons of a plan. I’m taking a couple months off between jobs to learn some new programming skills. I have 10+ years as a software engineer, but the languages/technologies I’ve been using are not the most recent/modern or what I’m seeing in job postings that I’m interested in. My plan for the next couple months is to part time work on projects (I’m travelling the other half of time) like mobile apps, websites, etc. Is it crazy to set up a little LLC for that? I’m not trying to make a living off this, but could see some nominal income coming from those projects to offset costs. I like the idea of having something on my resume to cover the gap between jobs and would be really transparent that its just a developer party of one making little products as a way to gain new skills. (example, listing myself as a developer, not a CEO) I view is as similar to going back to school for a semester or a way of showing that my time off was intentional while pre-emptively answering the question of what have I been up to.

    Are there downsides here that I’m not seeing? I’m guessing tax time will get more complicated. The process for forming an LLC seems pretty easy.

    1. CatCat*

      But why an LLC specifically? Doesn’t sound like you’re going to have employees, a place clients visit, or business debts. Not clear why form an LLC to do what you’re contemplating.

      1. To LLC or not to LLC?*

        I’m open to alternatives!

        My thought is for it to be a real registered company that “owns” whatever apps or sites that I make. Research on how to be a solo developer company didn’t really turn up much, which is why I came here. I have some friends who have made LLCs for startup ideas that never took off so that’s what they recommended.

        I’m trying to leave room for the possibility of actually making something decent that generates some revenue or could be sold off at some point in the future. I’m just not counting on those as my primary goal because I like to set my expectations low.

    2. CTT*

      Regarding the taxes, if you are the only member of the LLC and don’t have any employees, it’ll be treated as a disregarded entity and rolled in with your personal taxes, so it won’t be too complicated.

      The pros of an LLC is that it gives your business an identity that is not just your name (and some confidentiality, depending on what state you form it in). The downside is that it is an extra cost; in addition to startup costs of forming it and creating the associated documents, there will also be annual reports that you have to file. And if you form it in a state other than where you live, you’ll have to pay a registered agent. You’ll also need a separate bank account as good governance and to create the “corporate veil” (I’m not sure who would be suing you for programming, but if all the money is comingled with your personal accounts, you would lose the protection of the LLC). I’m a corporate attorney so obviously I would always recommend one, but I think you need to consider how much/for how long you plan on actually doing with this company and if it’s worth the costs.

    3. Masked Bandit*

      I have done this to manage my freelance event clients, even though it wasn’t strictly necessary. I recommend looking at SCORE, which is a program run by the US Small Business Administration and offers a lot of information, classes, and mentorship around running a small business/freelancing. There’s a lot of information on the benefits/tax reasons for opening an LLC.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Whether you need a registered entity and what type, and what the costs or impacts may be, are extremely location specific, down to the county and municipal level. Something could be good from a federal tax point of view but needlessly onerous from a state or local regulation point of view.

      Call a local CPA for advice on this.

    5. ronda*

      for taxes you can just do a schedule c for self employment income, dont need to do the legal business entity for tax purposes.

  93. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    If anyone else is curious about an update to my situation the last couple of weeks where I:

    – Blurted out a profanity laden comment on how our company was handwaving Covid spikes unmuted on a group call
    – Then had to attend an out of state work training where my trainer canceled after the first day because he tested positive for Covid

    I came home on Friday, was sick by Friday night and tested positive for Covid on Saturday. At least one other attendee I know also has it immediately following the training. Currently experiencing moderate symptoms, quarantining from my husband, and quite angry that 2.5 years of being cautious went right out the window. UGH

    2. RagingADHD*

      If your caution included getting your vaccines and any boosters you are eligible for, then it wasn’t wasted at all. It is currently making your illness much less dangerous than it would have been otherwise.

      It has never been realistic to think any of us could avoid catching it altogether. We knew that in the first year. The goal was to hopefully avoid it long enough for the vaxes and better treatments to be available. And so you did.

      Your caution paid off.

      1. ShinyPenny*

        Seems like the issue is that it was not NLGLDAnalyst’s free choice to take that risk, though. I would be bitter indeed to have caught Covid for such a predictably foolish and easily avoidable reason.
        This was not like choosing to accompany a loved one into an ER, for instance, where the increased personal risk would feel justifiable. This doesn’t even appear to have been an essential part of Analyst’s role.
        No one should be cavalier about pushing another person into high risk behavior, just because “everyone will catch it eventually.” Sure, getting Covid two years ago was far more dangerous than getting it now– no argument. But it is still dangerous, with poorly understood long-term consequences. That shouldn’t be minimized.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I didn’t say any of those things and I’m not going to argue about what is or isn’t reasonable risk in the current environment.

          My point was solely that the OP’s caution was in fact productive and not at all wasted.

  94. JustaTech*

    Question about fire drills: How often does your organization/building have a fire drill (or tornado drill or earthquake drill or tsunami drill or whatever’s appropriate to your area)? Twice a year? Once a year? Every other year?

    This question came up for me yesterday when we had a non-drill evacuation (it was very exciting, there were explosions, no one was hurt), and there was serious confusion about where our muster point (the place where you’re supposed to go and get counted) is actually located.

    The old instructions (pre-COVID) said to go to one place, but apparently there was a discussion like last week that wanted us in a different location, across the street. This was an issue because previously we had been told (and I was on the safety committee for years so I heard it a lot) that we should *never* go across the street because the traffic on that street is very fast and doesn’t stop for pedestrians (even with flashing lights) and people have been hit by cars in the past.

    So it’s not clear to me that we had really dropped the ball on announcing the new muster location (if it’s still under discussion or was only decided last week), but it did make me think that we have a lot of new people who have never done a fire drill.

    2. Mid*

      We have never had a fire drill in the three years I’ve been at my job, but also COVID meant no one was in the office for a while, and even now it’s rare that more than half the employees are ever in the office. The office building my company is in tests the fire alarms twice a year.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      We usually only have one fire drill per year, in October as it is Fire Prevention Month.

    4. Anonymous Life Safety Industry*

      Two or three a year is not uncommon.
      Some critical things that can get easily overlooked are to (A) Publicize the evacuation site in-between drills, (B) Publish the evacuation policies for new hires, and (C) Post permanent signage at the location.
      If you’re going to get involved with re-initiating the company’s safety program, look into adding tornado safety policy. That can be as simple as publicizing & labelling “tornado shelter” where the architecture is the strongest with fewest windows. Consider local hazards of natural and unnatural variety: floodplains, earthquake zones, proximity to volcanos, proximity to roadways where trucks deliver fuel oil & other spillable chemicals.
      Your local government, your local fire department, and your company’s insurance company probably have programs — the insurance company may have programs to get you a discount.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      We never do fire drills, but they test the fire alarms quarterly during off hours like the weekend. We do an annual earthquake drill as part of The Great Shakeout in October. We’re SUPPOSED to do the whole drop, cover and hold, then evacuate, but most people just do the evacuate part. However, we also are supposed to do the whole thing for any earthquake we can feel; which is irritating to have to evacuate the building over a 3.2 until they give an all clear. We are given an emergency response booklet too that covers all the things that may occur on or near our campus — earthquake, fire/explosion, hazardous material spill, bomb threat, active shooter, train derailment, severe weather… and in at least my department, everyone was given a Red Cross Basic Emergency backpack that we’re supposed to take with us when we evacuate. Which reminds me, we should probably change out batteries because it’s been a few years.

    6. Mimmy*

      We’re required to do monthly fire drills (training center for adults with disabilities). However, the last few drills have occurred at times when no students are present, just staff.

    7. fhqwhgads*

      When I worked in an office, we never had fire drills (or tsunami drills). We had earthquake drills annually for the great shakeout. They were talking about instituting active shooter drills when I left but I don’t know if it ever happened.

    8. pancakes*

      A number of buildings I’ve worked in did them monthly, but those were NYC high rises.

  95. Newbie*

    I’ve been working in my current position for almost 4 months, and I feel like there just isn’t enough for me to do. I support a different professional and he doesn’t really need a full time support. We’ll be getting another person for me to support in a month or so, and another in October, and I’ve been offering help to other people on my level when they need it, but I feel awkward and guilty when I know everyone else is busy- but not overwhelmed- and I have nothing to do. I don’t know if I’m looking for advice or just venting but that’s the situation.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I think you should continue on as you are (with less guilt) until you have another person to support. Hopefully supporting that extra professional will give you enough work to do. Maybe not 40 hours a week, but enough that you don’t feel you’re slacking compared to your busy coworkers.

    2. OyHiOh*

      Can you identify professional development tasks/learning you could do in your downtime?

      One of our admins is working towards a project manager certificate during downtime; another is doing industry related certifications; neither is expected to do this on their own time but rather when work is light and/or carve out dedicated hours in their week to pursue the certs

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Offer help to the next level up as well — there may be things going undone because no one has thought to delegate. Things like document review tasks, website spot-checks, server cleanup, even paper file scanning. Years ago we had a summer hire who took the initiative to create a tracking log for her and the other two summer hires and set up a system where the three of them reviewed each other’s work before turning it in. She was a priceless gem who we wanted to hire, but she wanted a shorter commute.

  96. Ditto*

    I’ve been assisting my spouse with trying to find a new job and we’re a bit stuck. Looking for ideas on types of jobs that may fit.
    He has been in the public safety sector for about ten years and is BURNT OUT. He’s in administration, doing niche work that involves investigating and some high level data analysis. Problem is that other than public safety any sort of investigative or data work require specific experience in those fields. He desperately wants out of public safety and is willing to do just about anything that wouldn’t require a pay cut. Not much is coming up he meets the qualifications for that pays at least where he’s at. Working in the public sector he’s not making a lot, but we can’t afford making less….

    1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Would be willing to be a public safety instructor at a technical college? Or is he just done with anything related to that in general?

      1. Ditto*

        That’s something we haven’t looked at yet. He does have some training experience so definitely worth seeing if there are openings. Thanks!

        1. Lady_Lessa*

          If he had done training, could he do first aid training, and other safety training. I know that there are companies that do just that.

          One major uniform company offers training in safety, since they supply safety items as well.

      1. Fran Fine*

        If he’s burned out already, this is probably not the best route to go down, lol. Insurance claims is not a joke (speaking as a former claims adjuster) – the volume of assignments you get can be wildly out of hand.

  97. Everything Bagel*

    Question regarding LinkedIn…
    Going to start job searching again. Haven’t even accessed my LinkedIn in a few years. I really am not very interested in utilizing it at this point. Is that a mistake? I really don’t use social media in general. I also don’t want my boss to find out that I’m job searching, and I’m not sure what he could see if he looked at my LinkedIn. I’m not really up on all the filters and privacy settings anymore. Is it acceptable, if asked by a potential employer about LinkedIn, for me to say I just don’t use it anymore and haven’t bothered updating it in years?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I successfully job-searched earlier this year without ever using (or mentioning) LinkedIn. Totally acceptable to job search without it, and if a recruiter/hiring manger asks about it, to say “I have a LinkedIn account but I don’t use it and haven’t updated it in a while.”

    2. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I used LinkedIn to find open jobs, but it was a search tool. I didn’t do anything to update my actual profile or make any posts.

      It’s basically a dumpster fire of way too political posts and #thoughtleaders that unless you’re applying for marketing jobs, it’s not necessary at all.

    3. ferrina*

      You don’t need it, but it can make life a little easier in a couple ways:
      -You can use it as a long form resume. That way any employer who wants to look you up gets additional details on your experience. Though it sounds like this might not be an option, given your boss.
      -Use it to get in touch with old contacts. I’ve reached out to people I hadn’t talked to in a couple years saying “Hi, how’s it going? I was working on [thing that they did] the other day and it reminded me of you. Want to grab coffee sometime?” or if you trust them, you can even say “I’m job searching and dusting off the old LinkedIn and realized it’s been a while since we chatted! How are you doing?” Most people I’ve done that to were thrilled to chat.

      But it usually won’t count against you if you don’t use it.

    4. voluptuousfire*

      I think it’s smart to jazz up your LI just so it’s out there in case a recruiter sees it. There’s also functionality with LinkedIn that shows you’re open to new opportunities and it will come up in recruiter searches. You can also turn off the option where your profile updates aren’t shown. I think it can be a useful tool for job hunting but doesn’t need to be the main tool in your arsenal.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Yes, agree it’s a good idea to get it up to date, but definitely turn off the setting that shows your profile updates in your connections’ feeds before making changes. You can’t control if someone goes looking for your profile, and you want it to match (and/or expand upon) what’s on your resume.

    5. Mill Miker*

      If you don’t want to at least update the job history, then it might be worth seeing if you can disable it, or just make it completely private. That way, you don’t have to worry about an employer finding it themselves and asking why it doesn’t line up with your resume.

  98. LeadSnakeWrangler*

    Does anyone have any tips for project management when you struggle with planning and executing said plans? My new job involves a lot more project management than I’ve ever done (which is basically none) and I really struggle with prioritizing tasks and staying organized. My boss is lovely in many ways, but keeps telling me that “this is my project” which…really isn’t helpful when I don’t know what I want my project to be, what a realistic timeline looks like, etc.!

    1. ferrina*

      I’m ADHD, and you are talking about my life! :D But I’ve made a career of project management, and here’s my general process:

      Step 1: Make a plan. Design a goal, and illustrate how you will get toward that goal. If phase 1 is research and exploration, fine. Just make sure that subsequent steps have really open timelines (which you will flesh out after your finish you exploration).

      Step 2: Get sign off. Share your plan with your boss. Make sure the goal aligns with what they want. Make sure that the timeline and resources are approved (this way if timelines/resources change later, you can point out that you were counting on those, and can no longer execute project as planned. It’s a CYA).

      Step 3: Execute. As you get to each broad phase, divide it into smaller tasks. Check each task off as you go.

      Step 3.5: Check in with your boss regularly. This could be weekly, monthly, or every other month depending on your timeline. Keep them in the loop if something funky comes up or if something might get political- a good boss will want to get ahead of that. Let them know that you’re on track, or if not, what the updated status is. (If you’re ADHD, this also can turn into an external source of accountability and provide a kick of motivation. It doesn’t work 100%, but I’ve found it can help me in certain situations).

      You’ve got this!

  99. SpicySpice*

    Any of you heard about Chick Fil A looking for “volunteers” to staff their drive thru, to be “paid” in chicken sandwiches? I thought this was illegal…? I seem to recall an AAM question from a business owner who asked if she could have volunteers as staff and she couldn’t.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I hadn’t heard about this before today, but commenter Christmas Carol (upthread) has!

      The AAM question you’re referring to is the first one on the “can local businesses ethically accept volunteer help, are quick “thanks!” emails annoying, and more” post from August 10, 2018.

      1. SpicySpice*

        Ah, I should have guessed that I wouldn’t be the only AAM reader to see the story and be like, what?

    2. Ann Perkins*

      It is illegal – for profit organizations can’t have unpaid volunteers. I read an update where the franchise owner backpedaled on it.

    5. Student*

      The story in the Post says they were offering 5 entrees for 1 hour of work, which makes me suspect it was probably some sort of bait-and-switch scheme too. Otherwise that’s around $24 per hour. I wonder if they were actually paying volunteers in coupons or punch-card or something, so they’d still have to come make a normal meal purchase and pay sales tax on the food, and potentially add more to the order in the process. It wouldn’t surprise me to find these “volunteers” actually had to pay the restaurant something to redeem their pay-in-chicken.

  100. MomQuestAnon*

    Returned from matleave, WFH, and bosses want me to do a “Mini Ted Talk” 7:30 am before work hours, which falls squarely during my pumping session of the morning. I’m under the impression this presentation will be a factor in my performance eval and I really want to impress, but I literally do not have the bandwidth right now. Is it illegal for them to purposefully schedule me for something that directly conflicts with my ability to pump? Legit curious. They’ve never told me to do such a presentation before and I’m baffled as to why they feel it’s a necessity now.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Do they know your pumping schedule? And if so, why?

      And it’s before work hours, so … will they be paying overtime? Or providing comp time?

      What’s the thinking on this?

      I would leave the pumping schedule out of it, and request some clarification about why you — and your audience — are being scheduled to participate in a presentation outside of work hours.

    2. Pocket Mouse*

      The timing and the bandwidth are separate issues; think about how you want to address each. For the timing, you can state a conflict and suggest an alternate time that does work for you, just like any other scheduling conflict. For the bandwidth, get clarity on how concrete and important of an expectation this is, as well as what’s behind the request. If it is a priority, ask what else can be shifted to make room for it.

    3. Ann Perkins*

      Do they even know your pumping schedule? I’m pumping with my third now and none of my managers have ever known my pumping schedule. It’s definitely not illegal – pumping schedules can usually be shifted a little earlier or later as needed. I wouldn’t expect a mini Ted Talk to be more than 15 minutes.

      The bandwidth is a separate issue – if you’re very recently returned and still catching up, I think it’s fair to say you’re very busy right now and see if pushing it back is fine.

    4. WellRed*

      They didn’t schedule it during your pumping time. They scheduled it for 7:30, which happens to be your pumping time, unless I’m very confused. Don’t automatically immediately jump to illegal.

    5. MomQuestAnon*

      The Ted talks are only taking place 7:30 as breakfast discussions. No moving it. It’s a company tradition. I ended up having to explain the pumping thing bc to do otherwise, schedule conflict would have made me look high maintenance. They do seem understanding. They did go above and beyond providing matleave so I feel indebted in a way.

      1. Jobbyjob*

        Pump 30 minutes earlier or just after. It’s not maximally convenient but I’ve found that it’s important to be able to be a little flexible on pump timing, even if you are inflexible on the total number of pumps you intend to do in a workday (which makes sense).

  101. Huckleberries*

    I’ve been reading here for years but never posted myself. But it’s the comments and Alison’s posts that really gave me a good foundation to navigate my situation over the past few weeks and has led me to an incredibly opportunity.

    I threw my hat in the ring for a job role that I figured I had no shot at getting an interview for but my reasoning was, “the worst they can say is no – if I never apply, the answer will always be no.” That’s something I’ve really taken from reading AAM – just take the risk because it’s worse to be left wondering what would have happened (professionally) versus being told no or being turned down. To my utter surprise, I was asked to interview and got all the way to the offer stage. I was kicking myself a bit because I had given the recruiter a salary range during the screening interview – I hadn’t prepared my script for how to avoid it and just blurted it out. Now, the number I gave was a 20-30% increase on my current salary regardless so it was still a good jump.

    The offer I got? It was a 46% increase. I was legitimately speechless at first. And despite my initial shock, I still worked up the courage and gave a counter offer ask – which they didn’t match but did come back with another figure that puts me at a 54% increase!!! Reading AAM posts gave me great scripting and a great mindset to be able to go back and ask for more without feeling like a complete a-hole and like I was being greedy.

    Money aside, this new job is a huge professional opportunity for me and has a possible path to more growth down the road. Moreso than my current company ever would. I’ve worked for the same manager, in various roles, for the past 6 years and it was SO HARD to give her notice yesterday. But again, I used some AAM advice to bolster my confidence in having the conversation. I didn’t fear a negative reaction at all – she’s been a mentor as well as a manager and I knew she’d be excited for me. But I also knew she’d be devastated for me to leave because we’ve grown close and have such a good team and culture. She was both of those things but this is such an amazing next step for me, I almost can’t believe it’s real even though I know all my hard work is finally paying off. So just a huge thank you to everyone who comments and also an endorsement that AAM has such real life applicability overall.

    2. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Congratulations! I got a similar increase and like you my old boss was truly wonderful, and her guidance and support was the only reason my new jobs was a possibility. She was so happy for me, but boy was that a hard bandaid to rip off. Like you, I couldn’t believe it was real, and kept waiting for the new job to back out or something! But I’ve been here almost a month and I’m truly thriving. I do miss my old team, but my new team seems great. But getting paid what I’m worth feels the best! You earned this!

      1. Huckleberries*

        Oh man, that’s exactly how I feel right now. Still in a stage of disbelief but at the same time, I know this is the right move for me. One of the affirming things that has helped is that when I shared the news with my team today, their reactions were so positive and complimentary – when I told one coworker that I had been surprised to receive an offer, she asked why and said that I shouldn’t be surprised because I’m getting recognized for how talented I am. Which was like, probably the nicest thing anyone’s ever said to me professionally.

  102. Artsy Llama*

    I have a pretty niche question so I hope this belongs here – I’m a hobbyist artist looking to monetize my art and looking into options for opening an online print shop soon. I’m also a big music lover and one of the things I’ve become somewhat known for lately is making fan art of some of my favorite bands. Some people have asked me about selling prints of my band fan arts. While I’d love to, copyright laws aside, selling fan art of a fictional character is one thing but I’d feel weirder about profiting off a real person’s likeness without their permission! So of course the next thought is I could just try contacting some of the bands and ask them permission (my music taste is not very mainstream so most of the bands I’ve drawn are small enough I think they’d be responsive, plus I’ve met most of them at least once). However I am also extremely shy and not sure how to go about asking essentially if they’re okay with me making money off them.
    Is this even a reasonable thing to consider? Are there good ways of going about this sort of thing or is it better to ditch the idea altogether and focus on other concepts for my print shop?

    1. MagentaPanda*

      Hi Artsy Llama: Before you dip your toe in too deep with your online print shop, go to comic cons. There are tons of booths by artists who sell fantastic fan art of shows, performers, etc. Talk to them on how they got into the business, the pitfalls, the rewards, etc. I’m sure you’ll learn a lot to help you in deciding.

    2. pancakes*

      EFF dot org (Electronic Frontier Foundation) has a lot of info about this sort of thing and sometimes hosts online events about copyright for content creators, etc., but I’m not sure that’s what you’re asking about. If you feel you have to ask the bands but don’t feel up to doing so, that seems like a barrier. Start by having a look around online about the basics of selling unofficial band merch. Other people who’ve done it will have written about it.

  103. my cat is prettier than me*

    I was fired last Thursday for performance and I’m really torn up about it. I’ve been applying to tons of jobs and have gotten some interviews, but I’m absolutely terrified that no one will hire me and I’ll never be able to keep a job. I’m almost 27 and I feel like I should be able to keep a job.

    1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      That sucks, but is life after being fired! I know, it happened to me. Part of it was the role was not what I signed up for. But also I was in a totally wrong kind of career. So I was honest with myself on why my performance was lacking. I’m terrible with repetitive tasks, so I was very picky in my job search to avoid those types of roles. When it came up why I left that job I was honest was was a poor fit because of X but I was excited because the position I was interviewing for was for Y.

      My first job after being fired was a temp job, and it took another role after that to really transition to where I wanted to be. Now middle aged, and 7 years later, I’m where I want to be. At 27 you have plenty of time to recover from this. Figure out what went wrong and how to move forward. Maybe the career path you’re on just isn’t a good fit. This is a great time to reevaluate things.

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        The issue is that the thing I actually want to do with my life isn’t possible right now. I want to act. I went to school for it. I have to admit that deep down, no job other than that is ever going to be completely unfulfilling.

        1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

          Have you looked into teaching theater at the high school level? I know that’s not the same, but with teacher shortages you might be able to get a position with just a degree.

          Or conversely, can you identify what at this job you were let go from was the issue? You might not find something other than acting that you’d love. But eliminating things you hate and finding things you can tolerate will at least be a step in a direction that will keep you employed.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Two diametrically opposite suggestions — first would you consider production management, location scouting, or casting services? Second, is there a museum or historic site near you that employs costumed interpreters as guides? I’d imagine the ability to play a role & learn scripts would be a key skill.

      2. Johanna Cabal*

        I was fired after a three month job from Hades (actually I would’ve rather worked in the underworld instead). Anyway, I applied for whatever I could. For some of my apps I just left it off as it was only three months. I eventually got a temp job (and I’ll be honest, I lied my way into it by presenting the three-month position as a “long-term temp assignment”…please don’t do this!) for a month. Then, after another month I applied for a job in a different field. I intended to only stay a short while but I actually did so well I was promoted so I stayed three years.

        I’ve since gone on to bigger and better things. You’ll get through this. Are there any former co-workers or managers who’ve left you can rely on for a reference? You can also reach out to your former job to negotiate what they’ll say when called and even possibly reclassify it as a layoff. It never hurts to ask and I really should’ve done that with the Hades job.

    2. Sherm*

      To use the relationship analogy: Just because someone breaks up with you doesn’t mean you’ll never find a lasting relationship.

      I’ve been fired twice in my life, and I’m currently excelling in a lucrative career. Don’t worry and on to the next!

    3. Irish Teacher*

      Sorry, to hear that. I will say I was fired from my first teaching job (essentially, the school was…let’s say there were discipline issues and basically I hadn’t the experience to deal with them; the principal pretty much said he could see I was doing my best but it was just beyond my experience level at that point). Yeah, I was gutted and terrified it would affect my career. But well…my current colleagues seem pretty impressed with me; the last principal (she retired earlier this year) said it’s hard to find people suited to my role but I clearly am.

      My point is that not succeeding in one role doesn’t mean you won’t in the next. That experience did dent my confidence for a while (until I went to a few other interviews where they stared at my CV and were like “woah, you worked in x school. Is it really as bad as we’ve heard?!” Not their actual words, but that was the general impression).

      Anybody can lose a job. Sometimes it’s just not a good fit. Sometimes it’s just lack of experience; you’ve taken on a role that needs more than you have. And sometimes it’s the company, they haven’t given you the support or onboarding you need. We were discussing on a thread a bit down about ineffective employees who give bad advice to new people that the new people have no way of knowing is wrong and companies that blame the new person instead of dealing with the issue.

    4. Ugh to firings!*

      I was fired at almost the same age as you were. I legit thought I would never work again. I was in a very small industry where everyone knew each other and everyone knew I had been fired. One possible employer actually told me that given the status in the community of the place that fired me, no one would ever touch me. I was terrified and depressed! Unhireable ever again at 26 years old. But…I did get hired again and went on to an even better job (eventually). You will too. Hang in there.

  104. just another queer reader*

    I was talking about pay this week with a couple coworkers. Megan recently got a promotion from Analyst I to Analyst II. She felt that the pay raise wasn’t enough. Apparently her manager told Megan that if they gave her more of a raise, it would mean they’d have to give her coworker Mike a smaller raise.

    This was a crappy thing for the manager to say, right?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Yeah, that feels like a weird guilt trip. “We don’t have the budget for more” and/or “salary equity throughout the team is a factor” would get the same point across with less of the “you greedy thing, trying to take money from Mike!” implication.

    2. irene adler*

      Of course it was.

      So how does this work exactly? Promotions and raises come from the same ‘pot’? Why? And the amount of one limits the other? That seems like an artificial construct.

      Have to wonder if manager would make the same argument if the roles were reversed here. Because I HAVE been on the short end of that one.

      1. ferrina*

        Yep, that can be how it works. You have $X for all your compensation adjustments; how do you distribute that? As you balance the budget, it turns into a zero-sum game.

        That said, it’s almost never a case of Megan vs Mike. It’s Megan vs pot, which includes whatever raise the boss got.

        And no matter how it was structured, what the boss said was crappy and unwarranted. The correct thing to say is “unfortunately there was a limited amount of funds and this was what they could offer at this time. I plan to advocate for you at our next compensation adjustment cycle.” (assuming all of that was true).

      2. Analyst Editor*

        It may be a lie and definitely shouldn’t have been stated so bluntly, but why wouldn’t raises come out of the same “pot”? The ultimate “pot” is the organization’s revenues or overall budget, which may feel bottomless if it’s a very large organization (like a Google or the government), but it isn’t and it certainly isn’t bottomless at the level of an individual manager or department. The manager has discretion how to distribute it, or maybe not (maybe it’s governed by a rigid rules matrix)…. But it makes sense for it to be limited.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      I was just perusing the archives this morning and read a question about a similar situation from 2015. Alison’s answer was that the manager was manipulative, and it’s a crappy thing to say.

      The letter is the first one of the “my coworkers are birthday tyrants, job candidate called coworker “annoying,” and more” post, if you want to read it.

      1. just another queer reader*

        Thank you, I love Alison’s response here! I appreciate it. I might send this to Megan.

  105. TopHatCat*

    I manage a team in the IT division at a university. There’s been a lot of senior leadership change recently. I’m freaking out that my team is going to be split up and I’m going to be moved under a different boss where I can’t thrive and succeed, and it will lead to me losing my job or having to resign for something I don’t want. I love working for my current boss – it’s a great fit, and he gave me a great review for my first year in management, and has been mentoring me. But I know I won’t get that kind of support with any of the other directors here. I’m also worried about the rest of my team. I know several of them will leave if our team gets split up or if we get moved under another director.

    I trust that my boss will do what he can to keep us where we are, but sometimes people get overruled. Hopefully things will be okay. It’s just a very uncertain time, and we’ve been dealing with some really high stress projects this past year, and we don’t need any more stress.

  106. It's Friday & I'm bored, so*

    What’s the most incomprehensible piece of professional communication you’ve ever received?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I knew what she actually wanted, but at one point I got an email reading, in its entirety, “drft plz tx”

      I responded “Can I buy a vowel?” (She hadn’t included the attachment she needed me to draft from either.)

    2. TopHatCat*

      I’ve had some crazy emails from professors over the years. One professor replied to an email I sent with some wild rantings about something that I had addressed in the previous email….she was claiming we never told her some important info, but it was literally right below her text. She had copied several high level people on that one. I can’t remember the exact wording but there were a lot of CAPS and BOLDED PHRASES and it read like someone leaving ragey, conspiracy-theory laden rant on Youtube.

    3. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Wasn’t one I personally received, but my mom once got an email from a hotel with check-in instructions that was so incomprehensible that she brought it home and used it as a grammar and spelling exercise for us. Person who rewrote it the most coherently got to pick a restaurant we’d all go to. I can’t remember the exact text but it read like one of those things where you put a text through 3-4 languages in Google Translate.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I once had a client who would try to communicate something about the book we were writing by just emailing me song lyrics. Like, ten emails in a row, several times a week.

      She knew we couldn’t use lyrics in the text. The content of the lyrics were not related to the topic of the book in any way I could comprehend. I would try to discuss them, and I still don’t fully understand the explanation.

      The closest I could guess is that maybe she wanted certain passages in the book to make the reader feel the way she felt when she heard the song? But I never figured out what those feelings were or what passages in particular they related to.

      They just made me feel like, “WTF am I supposed to do with this?” And I’m pretty sure that was not what she wanted the reader to feel.

    5. Irish Teacher*

      Does an interview count? I was once asked “apart from teaching, what would you do?” The interviewer eventually clarified the question, making it clear he meant “what extra or co-curricular activities would you be willing to help with?” but…the original question was open to multiple interpretations.

  107. Cheezmouser*

    Just a whine: my company is tightening our belt, and that includes limiting how much work we outsource to freelancers. One of my friends is a freelancer who works with our company. Her latest project missed the mark, so I have to ask her to redo it, but my boss doesn’t want to pay for it because she feels we shouldn’t pay twice for a poor product. We are in a creative field, so while there are clear delineations for what’s considered way off the mark, there’s also a lot of room for subjectivity. My friend bills an hourly rate, not a flat project fee, so asking her to redo the project for free is a no go. Even though I explained this to my boss, my boss insists that I try to get the project redone for free. I feel totally shitty about even asking the question to my friend. Ugh!

    (My friend knows my boss too, so I totally threw my boss under the bus by making it clear that “Per Jane, we would like to request a redo with the fee waived”)

    1. Cheezmouser*

      Update: my friend graciously redid the project for free as a one-time courtesy. I told my boss that this was a one-time only thing, and any future requests to redo work will be billed at the contracted hourly rate. My boss’s response was whether my friend/the freelancer disagrees that they missed the mark. I now have to explain to my boss that they acknowledged they missed the mark and even redid the project for free, but this was a courtesy by the freelancer and NOT in line with our contract or standard business practice. Sigh.

      (Am trying very not to write “This is not how contracts work. Please stop asking me to abuse our freelancers and violate the terms of our contract” to my boss.)

    2. beanie*

      How would you handle it if it weren’t your friend?

      Also, even with projects that are hourly rates, usually there’s a cap – so maybe the framing is you’re paying the person for a work product, and they set a budget for delivering that work product. If they go over that budget for in-scope reasons (what they delivered didn’t meet the expectation of the agreed upon scope) then that’s on them. If they go over budget because you as the company changed the scope (asked for something originally and then decided what they delivered wasn’t what they wanted) then the company should pay for the incremental difference.

      1. ferrina*

        Yep. Unless there were other factors, this actually sounds like it went really smoothly (despite the stress). You got to preserve your friendship, your friend got to stay in the company’s good graces, and the company got what they needed within budget.
        When a vendor we’re working with messes up (no fault of ours), we expect them to redo it at their own cost. And as a vendor, we do the same for our clients. (I’ve personally had to do that). If a vendor demanded to be paid more for fixing their own mistake, we may or may not pay them, but we’d certainly avoid working with them again.

        1. Cheezmouser*

          Actually, now my boss is asking me which freelancer it is. I’ve avoided naming the specific person up to this point because it’s not relevant as we have similar terms with all of our freelancers, and I believe in protecting our freelancers if they have a track record of good work, which my friend does. (Good freelancers are hard to find. This is the first time my friend has missed the mark; usually her work only requires minor revisions.) But now Boss wants to know who it is, and I’m worried about repercussions for my friend. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for my friend to do the revision free this time but ask that we stick to the terms of our contract moving forward, but frankly I don’t trust my boss not to do something drastic in retaliation. I’m of course going to tell Boss which freelancer it is, but, just, UGH.

      2. Cheezmouser*

        I’d handle it the same way. I would still feel really crappy for asking for gratis work, in violation of the terms of our contract, which states that all work performed would be billed at the hourly rate. I just feel extra crappy because this freelancer is my friend.

        In this case, there is no project cap, just a total cap of X number of hours per week across all projects. We have not gone over budget, but we are cutting our budget internally, so even though the contract stands at X hours max per week, we are trying to get to zero hours per week. And we’re trying to do that by 1) not assigning any more projects, which is fine, and 2) for projects in progress where we need revisions, asking for those revisions to be performed for free, which is not fine. We either need to pay for the work performed, as we agreed to do in our contract, or we need to handle the revisions ourselves in house. Not ask freelancers to work for free in violation of our contract terms.

    3. Cheezmouser*

      Am I misunderstanding something here? I thought if you’re a freelancer on an hourly contract, then any work performed, including revisions if the product you delivered missed the mark, are supposed to be billed. Of course, some freelancers may choose to not to bill for revisions, but that is at their discretion. It’s a faux pas for a company to expect that every time revisions are required if that is not what is stated in the contract.

      What’s the standard business practice here?

      1. Warrior Princess Xena*

        I’d like to know more about what ‘missed the mark’ means here too. If it’s a scenario where the freelancer provided the company with proofs, the company said ‘yes, go ahead’, the finished product looked like the proofs, and then the company said ‘actually – no’, then asking for free work would be a massive faux pas. On the other hand, if freelancer provides proofs, company gives the go ahead, and the final work looks nothing like the proofs, I as the boss wouldn’t be thrilled about paying more when the final thing is different from what was initially approved.

        1. Cheezmouser*

          Good questions. In this case, company assigned freelancer to create a blog post about ABC client’s use of our product so we can promote our product. The freelancer wrote the blog post about the product, not about ABC client’s use of the product. So freelancer’s blog post can still technically be used by the company but freelancer didn’t deliver on the specific assignment. The blog post was well written, it just wasn’t exactly what we asked for. Perhaps directions to the freelancer should’ve been clearer, or perhaps the freelancer should’ve asked clarifying questions to confirm their understanding.

          1. freelancer*

            If the instructions were clear and she did the work wrong, she should redo it without charge and not as a one time courtesy either. Clients don’t typically pay for a freelancer’s time to fix their own mistakes. Think of yourself hiring a plumber for your home. You wouldn’t expect to be charged if they messed up the repair and had to come back to redo it.

      2. Loredena*

        Is it a revision because they did it incorrectly, or a revision because requirements changed or were not conveyed? That’s a big determination factor. But you’re not wrong that time snd material is different than fixed bid. My employer generally would give s percentage back as credit if the error was hours and sometimes even if not to preserve the relationship. That’s less likely from independents though

  108. Orange Crushed*

    My boss was bragging to someone about how our department “never has any down time” yet we’re all burned out, working overtime, always swamped, short staffed, etc. I’m always trying to finish projects, yet get handed other tasks to complete. It also feels like our responsibilities/duties change, yet it’s not communicated.
    Other departments seem to have a lot more free time on their hands… (They talk a lot, take lots of breaks, etc.)

    Has anyone else experienced this before? What did you do?

    1. ferrina*

      Did you see commenter Expectation calibration’s post today? They’re going through something similar.

      The “busy department prestige” is so annoying. It’s another version of butts-in-seats mentality–look at our appearance of productivity! Aren’t we great! At the same time they’re ignoring long term benefits of having people that are rested, have time for professional development, and are generally, ya know, happy?

      Three options: 1) Try to wait it out and see if your boss gets fired or reassigned. I don’t recommend this, unless you are also doing 2) applying to other jobs. Meanwhile, you could 3) set boundaries. You aren’t available after X time and you won’t pick up the phone. You know your ‘productivity’ will be lower than others, and your boss will absolutely be angry with you. I have successfully done this with a boss, but the retaliation was real (skipped over for promotion, put on a not-PIP list of everything I ever did ‘wrong’, lots of verbal abuse).
      I recommend you get out as quickly as you can. I’m sorry, and good luck!

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      We’re tracking the hell out of our scheduled work & unplanned crises that derail it.
      But honestly, your boss is a problem. Our new manager earned my respect right away by explaining to OtherDepartment that we’re overbooked and do not have the staffing to pitch in on their emergency tasks without delaying other deliveries. My grand-boss is encouraging him to get rid of marginally related tasks that fell into our group in previous years when other groups were under-staffed. They BOTH say they want us to take weekends and vacations and be able to think creatively when we’re back online.

  109. Ray Gillette*

    This is as much a relationship question as a workplace question… but here goes.

    My boyfriend’s ex-husband works at the same company as him, in a different department (my boyfriend is in an role that supports people in all other departments from time to time). Because of the pandemic and the difficulty of moving in our area, they still lived together for a while after the divorce, but he finally moved out a few months ago. Ever since he moved out, his ex has been finding reasons that are nominally work-related to talk to him. But as you might expect, once the work-related part of the conversation is over, the ex hangs around and keeps trying to re-litigate the same fights they’ve been having for years. My boyfriend is doing his best to end the conversations quickly, but it’s pretty wearing. He doesn’t feel like he can bow out because his ex is approaching him with work-related questions, usually when he’s the only one around who can answer them. Any ideas on how to re-direct him?

      1. Melanie Cavill*

        Jokes aside, I’m not sure there’s much you, yourself, can do. Assuming you’re asking on behalf of your boyfriend, my best advice would be to politely feign ignorance and encourage the ex-husband to direct all further questions to their supervisor.

        1. Ray Gillette*

          Yeah, definitely asking if I can advise him since he’s complained to me about it a couple of times and doesn’t read advice blogs. I figured there’s not much he can do other than put his foot down about non-work related conversations. Sadly he can’t really refer his ex to someone else for the kind of stuff he’s asking, which the ex knows.

          1. ferrina*

            “Do you want advice, or do you want to vent? I’m here for you for whatever you need.”

            One of the best phrases in a relationship.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      In the short term, your boyfriend should employ the “gray rock” strategy of being as uninteresting as possible. So when his ex is switches from work question to old relationship complaints, he can just keep repeating “I don’t want to talk about that,” and remove himself from the conversation physically, if possible.

      In the longer term, if his ex taper off this unwanted communication, he should probably think about looking for other jobs. Unfair? Yes. But better for him to work in an environment where he doesn’t have to worry about being pestered by his ex? Also yes.

    3. ferrina*

      The boyfriend can use the time honored “ooh, got a meeting I got to run to. Bye!” or “oh, I need to catch Lana to get her to sign these papers. Bye!”

      If he thinks the ex might retaliate, loop Boyfriend’s manager in. Explain the situation, and propose what you’d like him to do. It might just be that Boyfriend will be doing the excuses above and wants Manager to know that that’s what happening (so if Ex complains, Manager can say Boyfriend is doing a great job). If there’s someone else that can answer these questions, enlist Manager to send Ex to the other person. every. single. time. “Can’t, I’m super busy. Boss has told me to forward all questions to Mallory, so you’ll need to see her.”

  110. Kayem*

    Who wants to see a job listing that has been open for almost a year (reposted over and over) and the chances of getting filled is pretty slim, yet the employer can’t figure out why no one is applying? Of course you do.

    ———-

    GENERAL DESCRIPTION OF POSITION

    Works under the general direction of the Planning Manager and is responsible for: 1. Coordinating and promoting the City’s Historic Preservation Program. Duties of the position may include coordinating the implementation of City policies and procedures for the protection of cultural and historical resources and providing guidance and direction to stakeholders on historic preservation goals and regulations. 2. Also responsible for long range planning assignments including tasks specifically related to implementing the comprehensive plan such as code amendments, area plans and coordinating interdepartmental activities.

    ESSENTIAL DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES

    1. Performs difficult and complex assignments; performs a wide variety of planning work including collecting data for the preparation of various phases of a comprehensive plan; supervises the preparation of maps, charts, sketches, plans and designs pertinent to the formulation of a comprehensive plan. This duty is performed about 25% of the time.

    2. Directs, prepares and implements major preservation and revitalization plans, agreements, projects and activities including mixed-use, commercial and residential development; public street scrapes, and infrastructure improvement projects. This duty is performed about 25% of the time.

    3. Coordinates with other City departments and agencies to implement goals and policies of adopted plans. This duty is performed about 10% of the time.

    4. Prepares recommendations relative to zoning matters; reviews subdivision plans for compliance with applicable regulations; reviews and analyzes matters relative to zoning and subdivision and determines compliance with relevant ordinances. This duty is performed about 10% of the time.

    5. Supervises and assists in the compilation of social economic and planning data used in the analysis of community planning problems; assists in the interpretation, modification and implementation of comprehensive plans, sub-area plans and redevelopment plans; prepares studies and makes recommendations on public and private land uses. Performs research, planning, and technical analysis for difficult planning, zoning and renewal projects including negotiations with developers regarding road and utility issues. This duty is performed about 10% of the time.

    6. Prepares and administers Federal and State grants and is responsible for Federal and State reporting requirements. This duty is performed about 10% of the time.

    7. Researches requirements of historic preservation techniques and policies, and provides information and technical assistance to property owners, private development interests, and the general public. This duty is performed about 10% of the time.

    8. Perform any other related duties as required or assigned.

    Qualifications
    Must have a high school diploma or equivalent; Broad knowledge of planning and development principles and practice equivalent to four year degree. Demonstrated knowledge of historic preservation or architectural history; equivalent to four year college degree plus three years related experience and or training. Master’s degree preferred. or equivalent combination of education and experience. AICP (American Institute of Certified Planners) Certification preferred. Registered as Architect or Landscape Architect preferred.

    STARTING SALARY $16.81 per Hour

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      WOW that is a low salary! Just a hair above minimum wage in CA where I live and work (in a large planning agency!). We start planners around $55K, not great but I think better than this?! Is this like the South or something?

      1. Kayem*

        It’s in the south, but that pay is well below market for the area for this position. Minimum wage is $11/hr and a family member of mine who works for the same employer is an entry level tech making $15.05/hr as his starting salary. Every time the department reposts this position, it gets thoroughly mocked.

        Aside from the architectural aspect, I’m thoroughly qualified and could easily do this job, but do I want to give up a self-paced remote position where I make $20-30/hr even if the work only runs half the year? Probably not.

        1. Bob-White of the Glen*

          But why would you want to work half the year at $30/hour vs. the full year at $16/hour?

          :P

    2. Good News #4*

      A – the kind of planner they’re asking for generally has at least a bachelor’s degree, and frequently is working towards a master’s (organization I just left had a similar planner on staff; that individual made about $60,000 and was considered significantly underpaid for the role – non profit world for you)
      B – the grant planning they’re asking for, well, the grant planner I know makes like almost $100,000 and deserves every penny of it for the state and federal grants they wrangle.
      B – the pay is ROFL

      So basically, they want two highly qualified, trained experienced professionals for the price of a high school diploma.

    3. Melanie Cavill*

      The pay just completely sends me. I have never seen a municipality job posting that didn’t pay at least twice that. Are these jobs not unionised in your area?

      1. listen up fives, a ten is speaking*

        OP says that it’s in the southern US, which is one of the least union-friendly places on earth. So chances are, no.

      2. Kayem*

        I just asked and apparently the only unionized workers for the city are uniformed officers and the waste management workers. Which probably explains a lot.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I wonder if that salary is due to the program being partially funded by a state or federal grant, and the city is supposed to provide matching funds but is reneging.

      1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

        Mmm, usually those grants are on a reimbursement basis and you have to provide proof of expenditures. Pretty hard to renege on matching funds and get the match.

      2. OyHiOh*

        Well, they could be making up their expenditures in order to keep their grant funding in compliance but chance are, the unit of local government is underfunded and therefore forced to underfund the position. Additionally, judging from the last paragraph, they may be trying to get funding for historic buildings projects and have been told they need to have this type of person on staff to program manage, but they don’t really have the money to fund the position until they get the grants and around and around we go.

        1. Kayem*

          According to secondhand scuttlebutt, this is a position that was newly created. And given the city manages a lot of historic resources, many on the National Register, it’s likely they have to meet certain requirements. My mother retired from a similar position which was created for her so her (government) employer could meet requirements regarding historic resources. Though after she retired, they essentially retrenched the position and portioned out her duties to a bevy of underpaid, overworked managers.

    5. Warrior Princess Xena*

      – Perform any other related duties as required or assigned
      1. The sum of the time spent on the listed duties is already 100%. There’s no time for other related duties.
      2. Essential duties 1 & 2 already seem like full time jobs to me
      3. Want to bet ‘any other related duties’ would include ‘manage full department, get yelled at by everyone who’s unhappy with how the department runs, and be responsible for the payroll/HR/accounting/all other duties’ as well?

    6. fhqwhgads*

      This bit alone “Demonstrated knowledge of historic preservation or architectural history” generally means has a master’s degree. Like…I know a handful of historic preservationists and that wage is what they made in the late 1980s.

  111. Perkins*

    Hi there!

    I don’t see the comment I posted here earlier today so I will post it again. Here goes:

    Hi,

    I’m in a very rural area with limited options when it comes to choosing an ISP. My current ISP is Star Communications. I just checked my download speed with speedtest.net, and it’s 4.66 Mbps. Upload is even worse.

    Is there something I can buy to boost both speeds so that my download speed is at least 20 Mbps while the upload speed is at least 5 Mbps? I’d also need a ping rate that’s under 30 and 0% packet loss.

    I need to do this to improve my chances of getting a remote job that depends on your having a fast connection.

    Thanks,
    a concerned customer

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Your earlier comment posted and has some replies. If you ctrl + f, a search bar will pop up in your browser, and typing in “perkins” will lead you right to your comment.

    2. onyxzinnia*

      Have you reached out to your ISP to explore reasons why your internet speeds are slow? It might be worth looking at your router (either upgrading it or moving it to a different location). You may also want to look into something like a mesh network.

      1. Perkins*

        Thank you for the reply. I already have a mesh router. Yesterday, when I called my ISP, they told me I have a choice…I could stay with my current plan or upgrade to their other plan. Yup..that’s all they have: two plans. The first one is roughly $49, and the other one is $69.

        When I asked them whether or not the more costly plan would *always* be above 20 Mbps when it comes to downloads, they were not sure and said they’d have to double check. I just called them back a few minutes ago, but I was not able to get thru to anyone.

  112. Heffalump*

    This is apropos of the “candidates have stopped giving me their availability” post of a couple months back:

    https://www.askamanager.org/2022/05/interview-candidates-have-stopped-giving-me-their-availability-when-i-ask-for-it.html

    This occurred to me after comments had closed, so here’s my 2 cents now. The OP had said:

    As of now, I’ve just been slotting the first person to get back with me with the time they “schedule” and responding to other emails with “Sorry, I already have filled that slot — please give me your full availability for X, Y and Z days and I will email you back with your interview day and time.” But even then, about half the people will just pick another specific date/time and do the same thing again!

    What struck me after the fact was that the OP isn’t actually telling the candidate that they didn’t follow instructions the first time. She’s only telling them that the time slot is filled. From there on she’s repeating the instructions that they misunderstood the first time around. So I can see why they “do the same thing again.”

    I personally think the OP’s instructions are clear and share her puzzlement that candidates aren’t getting it, but that’s another discussion.

  113. Alex*

    Is anyone else experiencing both burnout and evidence of *others’* burnout? I work in a job that involves receiving materials (electronically) from various people. There’s always some back and forth about it, but lately, half the deliveries are a disastrous mess. For example, I’m supposed to receive a batch of 10 cookie recipes, with ingredient lists, instructions, and a picture. I get a list of 10 cookie recipes, but only three pictures, half the instructions are wrong, and ingredients obviously missing. This has been happening from everyone, even experienced people who previously gave me mostly complete deliverables.

    This has been causing ME to feel burnt out, because every time I open a new deliverable, I feel like I need to spend an extra hour figuring out what I’m missing, and then composing diplomatic emails to people asking for them to complete it. I dread doing this. I just want something to not have 100 problems for once. My feelings are probably exacerbated that I’m just generally burnt out at my job and really want to leave, but my own productivity is suffering and I feel like it is a vicious cycle.

    What’s going on? Is everyone just giving 50% effort now?

    1. Pass the Just For Men*

      Sounds like they are either working another job at home, or spending half their day doing online applications. :)

    2. Alex*

      And as I was writing that I received an email from someone who signed is own name misspelled. Lol. I think people are just at their breaking points.

    3. ferrina*

      Yep, I’m definitely at this point and I’ve ushered others through this point. The burnout is so real, and yes, it can absolutely be a domino effect.
      Despite your complaint, I’m getting a sense of compassion and humor from your comment. I appreciate that you are recognizing this as burnout, not a personality defect.

      A couple ways to try to mitigate the impact:
      -Make longer timelines. Expect more errors, so more back & forth. With some people, you can literally tell them that you are doing that.
      -Tell them to take a vacation. “Hey, I know you and you’re good! But somethings going on and you don’t seem like yourself. Please, take care of yourself!” for my direct reports, I’ve literally said “plus this is good for me, because when you’re well-rested your productivity gets higher. So I selfishly would love to see you take a week or two away from work and completely unplug”
      -Make checklists. I’ve been at the point where my brain can barely function. I needed something quick and easy that didn’t require creativity or critical thinking. Something I could click while my brain recharged (which took a long time). It also allows you to delegate part of your work- can you pass it off to an intern/junior staffer and ask them to check all the boxes so you know what’s missing from each project? Or when I was getting the work directly from the junior staffer, I gave them the checklist and told them to check everything before sending to to me. The staffers ended up loving that checklist and added to it, and I got better quality materials.

      1. Alex*

        Unfortunately the people who deliver to me are not employed by me or my employer–they are outside people–so I have no say over their vacation or lack thereof, don’t have a ton of capital to tell them to improve, and I have little insight into why it is happening. In most cases I’ve never even met them in person and/or they live in a different state or even country. For one repeat offender my own boss did suggest a checklist. I will try it–send one to him and see if it helps–but a lot of this is just obvious carelessness. Nonsensical file naming, slapdash copy-paste jobs, etc. It’s like we all just can’t do it anymore!

    4. inkheart*

      Yes, I have this happening where I have to contact people two, three, four times before they get me everything I need to finish my part of the job, which is not the endpoint of the project. I know in the business I deal with, they are losing people to retirement, and new folks are just not up to speed. It’s frustrating, but I am trying to believe that everyone is doing their best.

  114. Pass the Just For Men*

    Hello all. Has anyone been ghosted by HR/Recruiter for the initial interview recently?

    A recruiter responded to my application for an executive level role, and I set up a date/time that was about 2 days after our email convo. Their email clearly stated that they would call me. That time came and went with no call on my phone. I emailed 2o minutes after they failed to call. Before the interview date, they messaged back very quickly with me, so I was expecting a response pretty quickly (within the afternoon). They never responded.

    Their email signature had a phone number so 48 hours after my email, I called and the voicemail greeting was not for the recruiter. I left a generic message with my number, and I’m sure you’re seeing where this is going… 24 hours later now and no response to that as well.

    So I guess that’s that. Bullet dodged I suppose. Just surprised as HR and Recruiters moan on and on about not being able to find people and/or keep the ones they have that anyone would pull this crap.

    1. Bored & Friday*

      That’s happened to me a few times. Generally, I will withdraw from the applicant pool if I get the sense HR is disorganised or doesn’t respect the time of its candidates.

    2. Ada*

      Something like that happened to me a couple months ago. The company’s HR person ghosted me twice, each time with an excuse, then on the third attempt called me a full hour after we were scheduled to meet. I didn’t pick up. Or answer any of their subsequent emails/calls after that.

  115. Seeking Second Childhood*

    I’m not imagining the discussions here about US for-profits not being allowed to use volunteers right?
    I took a break to look at headlines and saw a baffling story about a fast food franchisee asking for *VOLUNTEERS* to run their windows and get paid in chicken. I didn’t see anything about it being a special fundraiser day for a local school or charity either, which might have made it a little less painful to read.
    (For the sake of Alison’s Friday, let’s avoid discussion of the chain itself — I waited until here to say it’s a ChickFilA franchisee because many of us have strong opinions.)

    1. Hlao-roo*

      AAM has answered a few questions about volunteering at for-profit businesses:

      “are there legal issues with volunteering at my yoga studio in exchange for free classes?” from January 26, 2015

      “can local businesses ethically accept volunteer help, are quick “thanks!” emails annoying, and more” from August 10, 2018

      “a questionable mug, unpaid volunteers at a yoga studio, and more” from June 26, 2020

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I really did think I scanned for “chick” before posting… and yet I missed multiple comments. TGIF?

  116. Phantom*

    How have you handled an employee with medical issues who is not on FMLA? We got paperwork to have an idea of restrictions (we have been able to accommodate) and how much time the person may miss. Absences are expected to occur 1-2x per week (it has been a bit more). Should we essentially ‘excuse’ those 1-2x and then count any additional against our usual attendance policy?

    On a separate note… dealt with these two things recently:
    – let go of someone who was on unpaid leave for 11 months and had no intention of coming back to work… now he is confused why he was let go.
    – moved someone to PT who was working average of 26 hours a week… they said that this move will “make things harder”… but they already were missing a TON of time, out of PTO… gave them the option of making up shifts for when they miss time, but they still are missing many shifts/ not making up the time.

    Eeeeee!! Happy Friday y’all! :)

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Argh yeah have had similar HR issues in my large unionized public sector workplace. For medical issues employee, the first question is why AREN’T they on FMLA, can they qualify (which helps everyone), and if not, they need to request accommodations which may or may not be granted by the employer. It depends on the need of the job. Obviously also there may be employment agreements (like MOUs) that cover elements of the situation. But just having an ongoing absence 1-2x/week – no. Not without a formal accommodation and/or FMLA.

      1. Phantom*

        I wish they qualified for FMLA, it would be a lot easier… but nope, not 12 months in and not enough hours yet. Maybe we need to look into moving this person to PT as well– fun fact, the employee I mentioned moving to PT above is in the same department. So both those folks missing time every week has not been great for the crew. :'(

  117. WheresMyPen*

    A job application hasn’t gone the way I thought and I’m feeling a bit weird about it. My job changed a while ago and I was feeling quite bored, so I applied for a job at a company I interned for after uni and loved. I was really excited about the job, thought it matched my skills and was so happy when I got an interview. But now, having really looked at the job roles and speaking to someone who’s in a similar job, I feel like maybe it’s not the right role for me and that the company has lost its shine since the pandemic as a lot of what I loved about it was the office atmosphere, and now it’s mostly remote. I’ve got a second interview next week that I’m still going to do my best in, but if I’m offered it I don’t think I’m going to accept. But I’ve been dreaming of going back to this company for years and think it would be a good career move. It almost feels wrong to turn an offer down, but I don’t think it’s quite worth leaving my job for. I just feel strange deciding I don’t want a job I was so excited for at a company I loved. It has boosted my confidence getting this far though, which will be good for any future jobs.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Hey, that’s what job interviews are for! So the company can decide if they like you and so you can decide if you like the role at the company. It’s a weird feeling because job-seekers aren’t used to feeling empowered to turn down an offer (especially at a place where you enjoyed working before). Congratulations for figuring out this role isn’t the right fit before accepting it!

      1. WheresMyPen*

        Yes you’re right, we’re conditioned to think we have to accept any offer we can get! Thanks :)

  118. talos*

    So I put in notice this week…I was leaving a bad manager, but the bad manager is my previous manager rather than my current one (I got reorganized midway through the interview process for my new job). I learned in the counteroffer process (I didn’t take the counter) that my current manager had actually been working on a (much-deserved, IMO, but I hadn’t asked for it because of reorg chaos) promotion for me. This is something that I probably would have seen coming if my previous manager had ever actually had a mid-year review for me during the reorg like he was supposed to, and maybe I wouldn’t have left the company if I had known it was coming. But instead, it came as a complete surprise that my current manager had been doing this for me! (Current manager probably was assuming previous manager had done the review, because one of his big problems was that he would say he was going to do something and then…never follow through, and later be surprised that people expected him to actually do it.) So even after he was no longer my manager, my crappy previous manager was still causing me to leave the company.

    Just…massively frustrating, because my current manager is great and if I’d had her sooner I might not have left. I wish there was a good way to explain to current/soon-to-be-former manager what happened and how it’s not really her fault, but I kinda doubt there will be.

    Agh.

  119. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Economy and political turmoil and other stuff going on in my life has made me think that maybe is the time to look for a job abroad, possibly Europe. I’ve been slowly updating my resumè, but I have a question – how do I translate my degree? Is there any official resource about it, like a writing guide? Thanks!

  120. Poor grad student*

    I need to fill out and return by email a multipage .pdf form that isn’t formatted to be filled out. I don’t have Adobe Acrobat, I just have the reader. This is for school, not work, and I can’t just buy any software for this.
    What’s the best way to do this if you don’t have Adobe Acrobat or other software for working with PDFs?

    1. YNWA*

      Use any of the free conversion apps online and convert it to Word, fill it out and sign it, and then save it as a PDF

      PDF to DOC is a good one

    2. PollyQ*

      You can use the Reader commenting feature to add text anywhere in the document. I did that just last week, and it worked fine.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        ^^This is ideal. Add your OWN text blocks on top of even a scannned document.
        No one wants to read my handwriting that’s for sure.

    4. Student*

      You print it out, write your information into the print-out in ink, then scan it and email it to them.

      If you do not have a printer and/or scanner, you can try your school library, your public library, or a commercial businesses such as Kinko’s-FedEx. They will have both services, usually for a nominal fee. Print in black and white, not color, to go with the cheapest option.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        This is what I’ve done many many times. Just print carefully and cleanly. At my library, we’ll scan it for free and happily help with this. Used to do it all the time for folks when I worked in public libraries.

    5. Flower necklace*

      Look up a website called PDFescape. It’s a website you can use to modify PDFs for free.

    6. pancakes*

      Late to this, but FYI apps like Adobe Actobat switched from a one-time purchase model to monthly rental a while back. If you did want the app for a period of job searching it’s around $10/month. (For me, at least, using it on an iPhone).

  121. Lucy P*

    How do you treat office staff that is supposed to be exempt, never works more than an 8 hour day, but then consistently comes in 10-15 minutes late and takes an extra 15 minutes for lunch?

    1. PollyQ*

      A) Are they getting their work done?

      B) Do they need to be in the office for specific hours, say, to answer the phones or cover a front desk?

      C) Should they really be treated as exempt? It’s not just how much they’re getting paid, it’s the kind of work they’re doing. Admin assts, receptionists, etc. are generally non-exempt, but I’m not sure what “office staff” means here.

      1. Lucy P*

        A) Yes

        B) Not my call. It’s company policy. Sr. mgmt believes that it’s necessary because the work is collaborative.

        C) I’m using the word staff loosely. Most have technical degrees at Masters level or PhD. When we had more people in the office, the people in question were considered managers.

        1. PollyQ*

          Thanks for the update! Since they’re getting their work done and they’re pretty high-level, the only sensible thing is to let those 15 minutes here or there go. If senior management tries to micromanage their hours to this degree, these kinds of employees are likely to flee to greener pastures with calmer shepherds.

    2. Ginger Pet Lady*

      The big question: Are they getting their work done? If so, none of that matters a bit. It’s the whole POINT of being exempt.
      If you’re trying to figure out how to manage by insisting on butts in seats, you’re barking up the wrong tree.
      If there are performance issues and work isn’t getting done, address *that* not the times they walk in the door.

      1. Lucy P*

        Thanks. You’re echoing what I’ve always thought, but the company has always had an unhealthy attitude towards things like this. Originally the idea was that everyone give to the company, but not have much given to them in return. The the stance changed to more of a give and take situation.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If it is a problem for the quality of their work, or coverage, you talk to them about the problem and why they need to change their behavior, document things in a PIP if necessary, and let them go if it continues, but your treatment of them as people shouldn’t change even if you are documenting problems that may lead to their dismissal. You don’t get to stop talking to them, ignore their emails, give them dirty looks when you see them, or withhold the communal break room cookies, or anything.

    4. Irish Teacher*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. That’s a half an hour max. Many people probably spend that much time chatting to coworkers, getting coffee, etc. You said the work is getting done, so it doesn’t really strike me as there’s any problem.

  122. Anon Today*

    How long does a teenager need to give notice for a PT supermarket job? She’s been working there for 4 months and likes the job but her manager is flakey. She likes the work but she’s having troble getting hours. Sometimes she’s not scheduled for weeks or she gets scheduled for the one day she can’t work after she told him several times verbally and Iin writing. She’ll quit when and gets another job. She wants to leave well and be eligible for rehire in case they ever get a better manager or she wants a job at the location near college next year.

    1. briefly worked in grocery*

      If she can give 2 weeks notice, I think that would be ideal, but honestly not required.

      I briefly worked in a large chain grocery store and actually quit with no notice when something better (and time sensitive) came along. I was marked as eligible for rehire and my manager was a little bummed but it wasn’t catastrophic to the department by any means.

  123. Perplexion*

    So, while my grandboss was on vacation, my boss tried to suddenly and secretly fire me out of the blue. I talked to HR, who were like, ok yeah that’s not how this is supposed to work. They didn’t file boss’s request and got them to instead accept a resignation letter from me working a short transition/notice period. But they told me that per policy they could not really overrule the situation, it’s all management discretion.

    Grandboss came back from vacation and was not happy. He did not know boss was going to do this, and did not like any piece of how it was handled. I talked to him about how completely unexpected it was, since we’ve had no issues whatsoever in the entire time I’ve worked here, and he was even less happy to hear it. It sounds like my boss is in a lot of hot water from multiple directions now, and general consensus is that they should not have even been considering letting me go. He was very apologetic and said the whole thing was nuts, even saying that he would have stopped my boss from starting any of this had he known they were planning on this, but treated it as a done deal that I was going to leave at the end of my notice period anyway.

    Which, sure, yes, I am definitely going to leave after this mess. There was more than one other department at this same org who wanted to hire me before, so I’m getting in touch with those folks and applying for transfers. Grandboss and HR were both like, well of course you don’t want to be here anymore now and will transfer out, sorry to see you go. But I will definitely not have a transfer lined up in the two week notice period, and I would really prefer to stay in this position until the transfer is set up, which will likely take a while. I do not know how I would explain to the other departments that I’m applying as a transfer at first but them mysteriously not an employee there anymore, for one reason. But I also have no idea how to pitch that to my grandboss at this point, since it’s not a short amount of time, and I would have to be working with my weird boss the whole time.

    I’m the only person in the department who does what I do, and this week as I’ve been working on handing things over to my boss to figure out, they have gradually realized what a hole I’ll be leaving behind and are starting to panic a little. Which is amazing, given the circumstances. So there is definitely a good case for why they would actually want me to stay on longer, but like. This is all so bizarre that I don’t know how to address it.

    1. CatCat*

      Why not ask your grandboss about rescinding your resignation?

      “I felt I had no choice but to resign given that Boss was imminently and actively trying to fire me. Now that I know that this whole thing has been handled improperly and without your knowledge, I’d like to rescind my resignation and continue working in my role until I can transfer to another division. As you and HR noted, my remaining permanently in the current role is untenable after how Boss behaved. However, I can remain and continue to transfer knowledge to other employees to take on my current tasks. I am hoping something here is salvageable though and I can remain in Company by transferring divisions. Would that be possible?”

      Sucks that you’d still be with Weird Boss. But hopefully Weird Boss would be (and should be) walking on egg shells around you. Cold civility is all you owe Weird Boss at this point.

      1. inkheart*

        And ask about being put under a different boss. I had that happen at a previous job, so the weirdness was not so constant.

  124. Wendy*

    I had a frustrating day at work this morning, and I would like some advice.

    I work as a fuel center clerk for a *well known grocery store chain*

    I worked the opening shift from 6 a.m. to 2 p.m. today

    The opening shift duties are the following…

    Uncover the fuel pump handles since the fuel pumps are open 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. 7 days a week
    Check the fuel pumps for any issues
    Count the till and complete the audit report
    Fill out the lotto ticket form
    Complete the daily inventory count of the products that are sold inside the fuel center by using a handheld device

    After the daily inventory count is completed, I have to leave the fuel center and go inside the main grocery store to collect products the fuel center sells. The same handheld device is used to do this. The handheld device brings up a list of products to collect every day.
    According to the District Manager who is over this fuel center as well as other fuel centers, the daily inventory count and the collecting of the products must be done 7 days a week.

    For today there was only and opener and a closer on the work schedule. The manager who is “temporarily” over the fuel center is also over another department. She was also over the fuel center when I first started working here in 2020. There were changes earlier this year, and the Front End Customer Service Manager was over the fuel center, but she got a job in a different department within the company. So, the previous manager is “temporarily” over the fuel center.

    There has been internal issues with the fuel pumps regarding unleaded gas for the past couple of weeks. Unleaded gas was pumping Very Slowly due to the internal fuel pump issue

    The issue was fixed earlier this week, but the same issue started again this morning while I was doing the inventory count.

    I was in the middle of doing the inventory count when the issue happened again.

    I contacted the store manager on duty after figuring out what the issue was, and he told me to contact the District Manager over this fuel center, which I did.

    The store manager on duty informed me to Not close off the fuel pumps, but to instead inform customers that unleaded fuel was pumping gas Very Slowly.

    I made a sign at the computer inside the fuel center, and printed out 10 of them to post at each pump

    During that time all 10 fuel pumps went offline, and the equipment that communicates with the fuel pumps stopped working.

    So, I called the help desk regarding the issue.

    I spent almost an hour on the phone with the help desk. I used my personal cell phone to call the help desk since I had to go back and forth between the fuel center and the fuel pumps

    The issue regarding the fuel pumping very slowly was worse after the help desk fixed that issue

    But I still had not left the fuel center to collect the products that are sold at the fuel center, and the lead as well as the assistant lead are under the impression that no-one else inside the store will collect the products for us since they have never done that.

    I left the fuel center to collect the products after 3 fuel technicians arrived to fix the issue. I explained to one of the technicians that I had to leave the fuel center to collect the products.

    I was almost done collecting the products inside the main grocery store when I heard my name paged over the store intercom by the manager who is “temporarily” over the fuel center. I was in the back warehouse when that happened collecting the products on the list that were not on the main floor. I asked on this managers employees if that manager wanted me to completely stop collecting the products and return to the fuel center. That employee called that manager, and told me the following “Manager told me that this should have been done at 6 a.m.”

    I called that manager and explained why I was collecting the products late. She told me that it was too late for me to be collecting the products and that if there are issues like this, to call her and have her staff collect them instead or have the employee who comes in after me do that.

    Yet, when there has been issues in the past at the fuel center regarding the fuel pumps, and the opener asked her staff to help out regarding collecting the product, but were told no by them or by her.

    Who should approach this manager regarding the issues, and how should that person approach her?

    What should that person tell the manager?

    1. CatCat*

      I don’t know that there’s really anything to do here other than call the manager if an issue like this arises again, as she directed. Who knows why no one has been available to do this in the past. And maybe they won’t be available in the future, but that would be on the manager to figure out with whatever staff where available that day.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I’ve noticed you posting from time to time about inconsistent or unreasonable directions from management. I think this is just one of the chronic downsides of working in a large retail chain. There’s a lot of bad management with unreasonable expectations.

      You obviously did the sensible thing and made reasonable decisions. That doesn’t mean the manager is going to acknowledge it.

      The best way to deal with this type of management is to follow whatever instructions they gave you last, and be prepared for them to contradict it later. You can’t win because they will always change the rules. So you just roll with it.

          1. Wendy*

            Now that I have the realistic answer, I would like advice on an issue related to this incident.

            What do you do when you are the only fuel center clerk on duty at any given time *opening shift, mid shift or closing shift*, there are issues with the fuel pumps, and customers are coming at you regarding the issue wanting and or demanding to know the following… 1) when will the issue be fixed, 2) will my credit card be charged for the amount of money I pumped gas for before the pumps stopped working, 3) why were signed not posted at all 10 fuel pumps regarding the issue?, and so on?

            Some questions I can answer, but some of them I am not sure of how to word my response. Especially when customers are asking and or demanding why signs were not posted regarding the issue, and you are the only fuel center clerk on duty.

            We deal with customers on either end of the spectrum…

            polite and reasonable to impolite and unreasonable

            The impolite and unreasonable make me want to tear my hair out

            How do you handle those customers?

            What do you tell them?

            1. ShinyPenny*

              First, I would want you not to let this make you feel awful.
              You are doing your best in a no-win situation. Rude customers are like a cranky three year old, having a little tantrum because her shoes are green and not red. You can’t help them cope better with the facts! But you can be sympathetic and polite without engaging with their internal upset.
              For me, it would be easiest to have some specific sentences to say, so I could just repeat my lines without thinking about it.
              Some ideas for ‘scripts’ to recite as needed:
              “I’m so sorry. I’m doing my best to sort this out, but I *am* just one person and we could use three of me right now!”
              “I’m so sorry this is so frustrating!”
              “This IS really frustrating! I’m so sorry.”
              “Thank you for your patience. I’m sorry it’s taking so long!”
              “I don’t know the answer to your question! I’m so sorry! If you can wait, I will call my manager as soon as I finish here.”
              Since you work alone, you need to de-escalate conflicts even with (especially with) really rude customers, for your safety. Like with a toddler, identifying & acknowledging their feelings usually helps, and then expressing sympathy. And lots of calm, sincere apologizing– unreasonable people do like others to apologize to them, lol.
              The critical issue, though, is that you know *they are* being unreasonable– so you can say all the scripts without actually feeling you can or should help them actually feel better. *That’s* not your responsibility! (Or within your power.)
              Your part of the social contract right here, is to say polite soothing things.
              (You are already doing the work the best you can, given all the things that can go wrong, so you have that part covered!)

              Oh– and listen for the scripts other customer service workers use in similar situations, when YOU are out shopping. (I’d say watch your coworkers, but you work by yourself.)

              1. ShinyPenny*

                Also– It sounds like you didn’t get a lot of training in how handle some of the more challengjng parts of the work you are given.
                Good job looking for more answers to these types of questions. No-one is born knowing this stuff, but you can absolutely learn it!

    3. ShinyPenny*

      Hi Wendy! This sounds very frustrating. I think RagingADHD’s answer is a good summary of your situation: the people you work with are giving you unreasonable and inconsistent instructions, and instructions that just don’t work.
      This is not something you can fix.
      It’s a “no win” situation: you can make the best choices possible, and still end up with your bosses criticizing you and customers being mad at you. You can do your best to follow the instructions you are given, and still end up “in trouble” because no one will ever say “sorry, we gave you bad instructions.” (Or, “sorry this job actually takes two employees to do it right, but we are not willing to pay more than just one person– but we will always act surprised and unhappy when one single employee cannot do all the things we tell her to do.”)
      This is an actual thing, and it is not your fault.
      Like RagingADHD said, one option is to try to “just roll with it.” Follow the latest version of the instructions you are given, but realize the instructions will change all the time and they will act like you did things wrong when you follow instructions.
      Another possibility is to think about what other jobs you might apply for. You can maybe explore your options? Maybe fill out applications at other places? If you get offered a job, you can always say “Sorry, no thank you” and stick with your current job. Looking around doesn’t commit you to anything, it just gives you more information about your choices.
      You sound like a reliable hard worker, who is good at following directions, and who would be an asset in many other jobs. You might find work that is more reasonable and less chaotic!
      (Also, if no-one said “Good Job, Wendy! That was a crazy morning and you dealt with it really well!!!” then let me be the first to say it! :)

      1. Wendy*

        Thanks

        Neither the fuel center employeess nor store management were trained on how to handle situations like this

        According to the store manager as well as one of the assistant store managers, the DM Only wants a store manager on duty to contact him, Not a fuel center clerk

        So, that was one mistake the store manager on duty made when he told me to contact the DM

        I am guessing that store manager on duty yesterday did not want to deal with the issue, but he had to

  125. Tom H*

    For anyone else who’s started a new job in the past few years, how long did it take you to go from “I have some idea of what’s going on, I guess” to “I know how to do my job”? And from there to “I am amazing at this”?

    I’m at the end of week 2 in a much higher-level role than I’ve ever had, doing something I’ve never done before in a new career field, and somewhat to my surprise I have achieved at least some glimmer of understanding (end of week 1 I was convinced it had all been a terrible mistake haha). And of course that next step depends largely on the person and the position and all kinds of other variables, so really I am looking for one person to tell me that they had outpaced their senior colleagues within two months (because it’s motivational) and someone else to tell me it took them 6 to feel like they knew what they were doing (because it’s reassuring). But it’s no good just making up some timelines for myself because I want details! Were there moments when certain things suddenly clicked? Events that changed your whole understanding of your job? Please share.

    1. GlazedDonut*

      I started a new job last year. The role I filled was the final position in order to make the team ‘complete,’ and the team hadn’t been fully staffed in YEARS. It was a little slow at first to pick up work–people were used to doing a little more than their own jobs in order to cover for the under-staffing–but by about week 4 or 5, I had a solid work load. By moth 3, I was taking on new tasks because I was learning and completing things quickly. At six months, I fully took on another person’s job (this came with a slight promotion), and managed that well on my own (the other person left). I stayed on that team for a year before being promoted into a different office within the same business. The person who has replaced me is doing about one half of what I was doing, and is working at an okay pace. I say this because I know *I* was fast in picking up the work load and mastering the job.
      I’d say that by the end of the year, I could have done the job of at least 2-3 other people on my team well. I knew their work/procedures/outcomes very well. Most of that is likely related to the fact that when I was new, I was a sponge–asking, absorbing, and wondering out loud. I actually helped make a lot of their procedures more efficient, and that’s how I came to know their work so well.

  126. Ada*

    Curious how companies are seeing off departing employees in these post-COVID times. Are you doing anything at all?

    Asking because last week I left a job I’d been at for over a decade. Closest thing I had to a send off was a five-minute call with my boss on my last day that basically amounted to “So long and thanks for all the fish. Hope you don’t crash and burn at the new place, but if you do, feel free to come back.” (In his defense, he was sick at the time, so the delivery of the message *may* have been impacted by brain fog.)

    Honestly, it was kind of disappointing. It’s not like I left on bad terms or anything. I had a good rapport with everyone I worked with, I’d gotten a promotion recently, and my bosses, clients, and coworkers were clearly sad to see me go. And we USED to see off departing employees, be it a token gift like a mug and a card, or treating the team to lunch on the employee’s last day. It’s not like we haven’t done virtual team lunches for holidays before, so even working remotely, I can’t help but feel that could have been an option had anyone cared enough to do something.

    Is it like that at other companies these days? Are proper send offs no longer a thing, even for long-time employees?

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I think it really depends on how the organization is overall approaching COVID safety, and current case rate. I am leaving after 4.5 years, and expected nothing (case rates are high-ish) but TPTB are doing an outside thing with bagels in the morning.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I left a company earlier this year after working there for about 4 years. My manager bent the company’s COVID policy a bit and took me out for a good-bye lunch, just the two of us (only after asking if I felt comfortable going to lunch). In non-COVID times, the whole team would have gone out for lunch.

  127. beentheredonethat*

    Job change at age 64. My workplace has become chaotic and spinning thru employees. Currently I am seemingly safe in my job. I am also tired of dealing with all of this. I am trying to decide options. 1. Go on SS at 65 (it will reduce my payout by $400 a month). 2. Hang tough in my current situation 3. Look for a different job. Anybody else who has been in this situation or has any opinions or suggestions?

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Seems like it doesn’t hurt to look for another job, and if you don’t find something else better, then at 65 you can decide if you’re done or you want to hang on. What age are you planning to retire at?

      1. beentheredonethat*

        I hadn’t really thought about it. This year I started to plan for 67. Now I am trying to decide how much more I can put up with what is going on as opposed to a better SS payout. Are people hiring at 65 and would it be worth it. Or the hybrid take SS and work part time. Thoughts?

    2. London Calling*

      I’m a few years older and in a similar situation except that I left my job in March 2021 telling them that I was approaching retirement, commute was getting too much this was a new phase in my life coming up, and I wanted to take time out to think about where I was going. Sort of true, except the bits I left out were the new system they had implemented in our dept was dreadful and the management of our dept ditto (IMO, of course). I was already in receipt of state pension and a private pension (I’m in the UK). Original plan was to go back to work after a few months but that was rapidly dumped as I was enjoying the down time far too much. Now I’m looking at going back to work to be able to pay some more into my pension fund and the plan is to do temping work for the next few years. Right now my tolerance for people stretches to about 3 months before I get fed up/ bored/ sick of the people I’m working with, so temping suits me down to the ground; and employers looking for temps don’t care about age, they just want someone to do the job. I think a combination of the commute, job changes, unsupportive bosses and a coven of nasty co workers all came together and made me decide enough is enough. I was lucky – mortgage was paid, I had enough my pension and savings.

      My work was my life. Now my life is my life. You only get one life and it doesn’t sound like you are enjoying your current work that much. Live as best you can. Be as selfish about it as you bloody well like.

      1. retired3*

        US here. I retired at 60, “losing $.” I fell into part time work that earns much more than what I lost and that I like. I can control my hours, working when I want (been doing this 20+ years). I spent the years I could have been working hiking and recovering from toxic workplaces. I have limited mobility now…and no regrets. I didn’t put off what was important to me and I’m in as good or better place financially. It’s a big world out there.

        But then, I’m into leaps of faith…

        1. London Calling*

          In OldJob I was on the best salary I’d ever earned, but when I did a cost/benefit analysis, the cons massively outweighed the pros – which were ‘Good salary’ and ‘I like some of my colleagues.’ The pandemic and how my dept management reacted to it was the tipping point, and just intensified the feelings I’d been having for a long time of ‘You’re not enjoying this any more, you can afford to leave and take a breather, why are you still DOING this to yourself?’ it was a shame, because I like to think I made a difference, but what I needed was far more important to me.

          When I left it started a domino effect in my dept – good people who’d been there several years leaving without anything to go to. I’d like to think questions were asked about why the sudden turnover of good people, but I really don’t care.

  128. GetBackToWork*

    Hopefully some HR folks can help me.

    Is it common practice that if you apply for a position that you were rejected for out of the gate that anytime that position opens up you would automatically be rejected again?

    I had applied for a position with a company that I have applied to before and the status immediately went to “you are no longer under consideration”. Thinking a glitch or something happened I emailed the HR department to tell them what happened and they said ” Since you were not selected the first time I had applied I am no longer under consideration when the position opens again”.

    The problem with this is when they post this position they title it differently with different req numbers but the actual job description is the same each time. This position has been posted as Traffic Coordinator, Traffic Office Coordinator and Traffic Coordinator Specialist.

    When HR responded I left it at that as to not burn any bridges.

    1. Eyes Kiwami*

      It seems like for whatever reason they have decided they don’t want to hire you for any sort of Traffic Coordinator role. Maybe you don’t have the experience they’re looking for, or some other immutable fact that doesn’t change when they reopen the position.

      You might try applying for a substantially different role with a different job description at that company and see what happens. Sometimes companies just mark candidates as “no” but it wouldn’t be smart to permanently mark someone as “no” for every role just because they aren’t a fit for the first role they applied to.

    2. Eyes Kiwami*

      It seems like for whatever reason they have decided they don’t want to hire you for any sort of Traffic Coordinator role. Maybe you don’t have the experience they’re looking for, or some other immutable fact that doesn’t change when they reopen the position.

      You might try applying for a substantially different role with a different job description at that company and see what happens. Sometimes companies just mark candidates as “no” but it wouldn’t be smart to permanently mark someone as “no” for every role just because they aren’t a fit for the first role they applied to.

  129. Giving Tree*

    Does anybody have advice for how to look after your own personal interests? I’ve not been in the work world for long (<3 years), and so far, I feel like I've been taken advantage a lot by my places of work. Examples include: being offered health insurance and then not receiving it before being fired, being told that it's normal to work longer hours than normal despite being paid the same amount of hours but still being charged for PTO, being called at all hours by the bosses, etc. In general, I've been told that I'm doing a good job by my employers, but…I can't help but feel that I've been taken advantage of again and again.

    1. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      Hm. Well some of what you’ve mentioned is fairly normal in the US, so I suppose most US workers ARE taken advantage of by the system in many ways.

      For example: I have a good manager-level job and I’m salary. But we still have to deduct Sick Days/Sick Time and PTO no matter how many hours we work that pay period. We still have to fill out our time sheets with that info and the manager must approve it, even at director levels. Our PTO is use it or lose it—no exceptions-no rollover, and it accrues throughout the year, so if you quit you won’t get paid for all the days, only what you’ve accrued.

      Depending on the job, it’s possible to be called after hours. My boss, a VP, gets called after hours quite often because of customer issues. I’ve sometimes had to work 50 hours to meet a deadline, etc. But overall, I’m paid well and that’s just part of the job’s peaks and valleys.

      My European friends and coworkers all say that American workers get screwed! Especially on PTO where THE SAME COMPANY has to give them more PTO than we get because it’s the law there. :-(

    2. ShinyPenny*

      If you have been working <3 years, I'm guessing you aren't a manager or salaried. So it's probably safe to assume your suspicions are correct.
      Learning as much as possible about boundaries in general might be a helpful goal. The ability to comfortably establish boundaries with the people in your life, in a calm and nuanced way, can be transformative in every aspect of your life. Depending on your personal history, that could mean therapy, &/or self-help books, &/or a deep dive into Captain Awkward's archives, and of course all the Ask A Manager letters on this topic. Along with lots of practice! (Some people will react poorly if you stick to your own boundaries– and you get to choose whether you care!)
      Focusing on learning about office norms is the second, more work-specific answer– and reading Ask A Manager has been a goldmine for me personally in this regard. The archives are an amazing resource. When I was starting out in the working world, I wish I'd known that "office norms" was an actual topic you could learn about! (Because if you can identify warning signs from a distance, you have a lot more options in choosing your response to weird behavior at work including being able to avoid a specific job altogether).
      Knowledge is power! And you can learn this :)

  130. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

    Is there a good way to talk about how a start date would be dependent on childcare?

    I have an interview – the recruiter first mentioned one start date, then asked me for one a couple weeks earlier. I said that was fine, and it might be, but I didn’t mention anything about how it all depends on if I can get two separate childcare arrangements going. I had just been starting to look into options when I saw this job and applied, but I really don’t know how feasible it is to get things going in this area in the next few weeks. I’ll definitely be trying (making phone calls on my vacation, yay), but I’m not going to have it all worked out before my interview. Also, it’s a contract position that only lasts a few months so I don’t know how much flexibility they have.

    If it were cool to be open about this stuff I’d just explain that I was still setting up childcare, but I suspect that’s not the best thing to say. Any suggestions on what to say about start date?

    1. Invisible today*

      I wouldnt stress about it. You dont even have an offer yet. I would say yes and move on (assuming that date is reasonable for you) – things can pop up even at the last second on their end or yours, that could make you need to change your actual start date.

  131. Wardrobe Malfunctions*

    I’m not in a position to be seriously searching or applying just yet (some health things have come up and taken priority over job searching, temporarily hopefully) but I was wondering if I could get some advice here:

    I’m a trans guy who’s never actually applied/interviewed/worked -as- a guy before. I want to start being out at my next job, because I want to be able to start moving forward with my transition and life in general, but I’ve run into one snag: I have no clue how to dress as a guy! I’ve only ever interviewed and worked in “girl mode”, so all of my nicer clothes are ones I’d never wear if it was my choice.

    Questions, for fellow trans people or for anyone who might have advice really:

    >I see it discussed infrequently, but do I really need a suit for interviews? I’ve never had the chance to wear one, and as I still don’t pass well I worry I’ll look… not good. I’m assuming a suit for say, fast food would be overkill, but I’d like to have a bit nicer of a job than that (ideally an office job, maybe something at a college?) What kinds of jobs would I be able to skip the suit, and what kinds might that be non-negotiable?

    >My current job has a very casual dress code, can anyone recommend any nice guides for levels of casualness with menswear? I can’t guarantee my next job will be another “jeans and uniform shirt” kind of place, and I’d like to I guess study a bit, since I’ve never gotten the chance to think much about this topic before.

    >As far as personal grooming goes, I’d like to be able to wear earrings and nail polish again (things I’d given up for a while whilst figuring out how I felt about those things in regards to my gender) but I understand that those things on men might be much more limited (I know my current job explicitly states that men cannot wear nail polish in their dress code).

    >I also hope for some advice for facial hair: mine is starting to noticeably patch in, but I really can’t grow anything like a “proper” beard yet – would it be best to keep my face clean-shaven until I can? I know not every cis man can grow a full ZZ Top-style beard, but as I’ve never had facial hair before/never been out at work before, I’m not sure what would and would not be allowed and/or advisable. I’m still getting the hang of shaving my face in general, so if I need to practice, I better get started lol

    >Lastly, if there’s any other trans people reading this, or anyone else who might have witnessed something like this: does anyone know of any double-standard pitfalls I might have to watch out for? Maybe I’m being a bit too worried and paranoid, but I want to either avoid or be prepared for if there’s anything that me being trans might make different than if I was a cis guy. Clothing or grooming standards or anything really. A big part of me worries that things like facial hair or earrings or even the kind of shirts I wear might be judged differently because I’m trans (and specifically early on in changes, I do not really pass at all just yet)

    Sorry for the long post! I don’t know when I’ll be able to start properly job hunting, but I also don’t make a whole lot of money right now, and that plus impending medical bills means that I want to start getting my “new” wardrobe figured out much sooner than later.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Other people will hopefully be able to give more specific advice, but my general take on men’s fashion is:

      It’s more restrictive than women’s fashion, which can be both easier and harder. Easier because you just have to learn the rules and follow them. Harder because it’s more noticeable when you don’t follow the rules.

      Because you’re new(ish) to men’s fashion, spend a day shopping. Go to a store with a men’s department and spend time trying on different shirt and pants combinations. Different brands have slightly different cuts, even for the same size shirt/pants so try on a whole bunch until you find the brand/size that fits you well.

      I think a suit is a good call for most office jobs, unless you’re interviewing for an industry (like tech) or in a location (like the West Coast) known for dressing more casually. Once you’re hired, office dress codes run the spectrum from button-down/slacks to polos/khakis to t-shirt/jeans. Should be fairly simple to notice what the other men in the office are wearing to get a feel for the formality level.

      For nail polish: either skip it while interviewing, or just put on a clear coat.

      For facial hair: either clean-shaven or well-groomed facial hair. If yours is still in the patchy phase, probably best to go with clean-shaven for interviews.

      Good luck building out the new wardrobe!

    2. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      You might want to post on the non-work thread to get better responses. It’s possible there are resources to better assist people transitioning than I know of. Especially tailors.

      My big guy husband worked IT or technical type roles in offices. He never wore a suit or sport coat to interview. It was always just a dress slacks and a dress shirt with maybe a tie for the interview. This will likely present some challenges if you happen to retain any “curviness” of the female body as menswear is cut very straight through the hips, butt and chest compared to womenswear. Menswear sizing is by waist/length and shirts by neck/sleeve.

      I agree you probably just need to go to a better department store and start trying on things to get some idea of your dress pant and shirt sizes will be. If possible try to find places with tailors who can measure you and point you to the closest off-the-rack sizes, and they can adjust and tailor from there. Finding a good tailor can make a world of difference with work clothes!

      It sounds like this is a big leap for you, so I’m wishing you the best of luck on your journey and job search!

    3. RagingADHD*

      IDK what your personal style is (or will be) but here are some thoughts about office style for looking like Average Nondescript Cisguy:

      The basic work wardrobe is going to revolve around chinos or slacks and an oxford shirt, probably with a plain white tee underneath. You dress it up to different degrees by adding a tie and/or blazer. That will be fine for any interview that isn’t an executive position, or isn’t in a very formal industry like banking, finance, or law. Since you say you don’t quite pass yet, probably your best bet would be the blazer but no tie. That can read as gender-neutral while a tie on someone who doesn’t pass can look like a bolder statement than you might want to make on first meeting.

      Avoid nail polish and earrings until you see how others in the office are dressing. Clear polish on guys has a certain set of associations and expectations that aren’t about gender, but about status and money, so I’d advise holding off until you know what image you want to project.

      There are many different beard styles that can look well-groomed, so it doesn’t need to be full-faced. But the shape you choose should have even coverage. So until you can make a whole something, even a whole goatee, probably best to shave for interviews. Most cis guys would avoid starting a beard too close to an interview or important event, so they aren’t in the scraggly stage.

      For workdays, not interviews, if you’re going to dress down a bit, the first step down from chinos and Oxford would be chinos + polo (or a sweater). Then jeans + Oxford, then jeans + polo. Jeans + tee is the most casual of course.

      I’m not sure what your exact concerns about shirts might be, but it is possible that a slim-fit shirt or a bold pattern might come across as more feminine than you want, depending on your shape. Straight cuts and solid colors are going to be more middle of the road, until you are ready to branch out a little with your style.

      Classic men’s office wear is pretty boring, but if you are trying not to attract attention to your physique, boring is good.

  132. PRM*

    Late in the day, but here goes:

    People of color or employees of other marginalized backgrounds: what are the pros and cons of taking on leadership positions in ERGs (employee resource groups)? I work in higher ed, if that makes any difference.

    1. CozyDetective*

      I oversaw/coordinated efforts of 10 ERGs at a higher Ed institution for 2 years. Prior to that I served as an ERG lead. I’m a PoC.

      I think pros are greater visibility in the organization and the potential of working on or owning projects outside of your typical scope. Some institutions might even pay extra for the additional labor of being an ERG leader. Additionally, you could be given a raise or promotion based on your ERG responsibilities (as long as work performance in current role is of an acceptable quality). These pros are going to be highly dependent on the institution you’re a part of and the work of the ERG.

      My ERG leaders often met with Cabinet-level leadership and they were given funds to do projects in support of the college that would either support employees, support students or aid in work being done in the community.

      Cons:
      ERG leadership can be very thankless and can be as much work as your actual job (or even more work). There’s a strong likelihood you won’t receive any financial compensation for this role as it is very much extracurricular at a number of institutions. ERG leadership can also be detrimental to your career if the direction or initiatives of the ERG are in contention with the direction of the college or its leaders. Simply put, if the ERG is advocating for something that the college’s leaders don’t support, you could find yourself getting forced out of your actual job. Alternatively, you could find that the ERG’s purpose is to parrot leadership’s talking points rather than to create a communal space or generate substantive change (if either was the goal).

      I have mixed feelings about ERGs—on the one hand, when I coordinated them, I thought that the programming we put on was powerful, staff-focused and generative (we were able to get some policies off the ground). When I led an ERG, I felt more engaged in the institution overall and it did raise my profile somewhat. But I think many PoC are put in the positions of being ERG leaders and it can be highly exploitative.

      So in short, your mileage may vary depending on your institution. I think creating a space for employees to commune with each other is not inherently bad, but the structure associated with ERGs (attachment to senior leadership, attachment to direction of institution, general lack of financial incentives to people doing the work) can make it good or bad.

    2. just another queer reader*

      I’m a white queer woman and I cofounded and have led the Pride ERG at my (for profit) company for a few years. I echo what CozyDetective wrote.

      Pros: visibility, networking, opportunity to potentially make a positive impact

      Cons: sucks up a TON of time, ERGs are typically under-resourced, you can end up getting really entangled in frustrating politics. Also, imo, a lot of organizations say they want to be inclusive and such but don’t want to actually make any substantial changes to how they operate.

      In my role I have accomplished some things that I’m really proud of! I think overall I’m glad I’ve done it, but it has been somewhat risky in terms of tying my professional identity to gay stuff so tightly. And because I’ve spent so much time at work on the ERG rather than my day job.

      Best of luck in your decision.

      1. PRM*

        Thank you, and CozyDetective. You both articulated my hesitations exactly. This particularly resonated with me: “But I think many PoC are put in the positions of being ERG leaders and it can be highly exploitative.” This has given me much to think on.

  133. Worker bee*

    I’ve found myself in a bit of an odd situation. I recently approached the higher ups in my company about a raise and promotion. I received the raise and we’re working out the details about the promotion, as this is a new position at my company. (To make all of this slightly less vague, all of these jobs are related to retail marketing and ecommerce for a small company.)

    I just found out that a coworker is leaving and I would like to take over some of her duties, particularly social media and our website entirely. They are things I would enjoy, but would also fit well with my new position. I’m planning on speaking to them ASAP about this, but I’m wondering if I could ask for additional pay. I happen to know what this person was making a year ago and, even with my raise, I was still making less than them, so I’m hesitant to move forward with this without an additional increase in pay, but I’m not sure of the best way to approach this.

    That said, this person will be the second marketing person that’s been with us since I’ve been doing my job and both of them complained about those aspects of the job, so I’m wondering if I might have some rose colored glasses happening. That said, both of them were flakey, so I’d often have to step in so things could get done, so I have some idea of how those parts of the job work.

    That said, I have advantages that neither of them had. I have excellent working relationships with our buyers, our retail staff, and I’m actually excited about what we sell. The first one had their foot out the door the day they started and the most recent started out great, but I think things in their personal life made them feel stifled in their work life.

    I kind of got away from the point of this, but how would be the best way to approach this with the higher ups?

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