open thread – August 5-6, 2022

by Alison Green on August 5, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Abe Froman*

    Anybody out there in the sales enablement field? I’ve been applying to some things in it and getting interviews, but not getting offers. I have a background in sales and in training (not sales related) so I feel like I have the right mix, but just not breaking through. Would love some help and advice!

    1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

      I have no advice, but I I misread this as “sales embalmment field” and originally had some questions of my own!

      1. Abe Froman*

        I mean, I’m open to new opportunities, so if you have any openings in sales embalmment, I’d be happy to talk more. XD

        1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

          I suggested embalming once to the zombies in the cemetery near my work, but they acted like it was an affront to their very existence,* so I had to let the matter drop. XD I’ll let you know if I hear anything, though!

          *Well, mostly they just shuffled around and said “Grrrruuuuuhhhhhhhhh,” but it was very aggressive shuffling, I swear.

    2. RosaRacket*

      I’m in enablement! I started as internal sales but didn’t want to move into external sales so went the path of enablement. I think I have a decent resume, but I think there’s a decent amount of competition out there right now especially for remote roles. I’ve interviewed a decent amount, even gotten to final rounds and keep getting passed over. When I got my current job, I literally put in 1 application and landed it.

      Sales and training are crucial parts, so you have that going for you. Skills in the tech stack that backs up everything you do is also critical (Salesforce, Highspot, and so many more).

      1. RosaRacket*

        So apparently decent is the word of the day here. Oof. Good thing content writing isn’t on my docket today!

        1. Abe Froman*

          No worries, it was a decent comment. XD Thanks for your insight. I’ve felt like my materials seem to be okay, cuz I have gotten a couple interviews. I guess I have to keep plugging away.

            1. Abe Froman*

              If someone sees the name Abe Froman and doesn’t know I am the Sausage King of Chicago, I don’t want to work for them.

    3. Cheezmouser*

      I’m curious what skills the job listings are looking for. I handle sales enablement, but from the marketing side. My company just launched our new sales enablement platform this year (Highspot too!), and I was the project lead. I second RosaRacket’s comment about being familiar with the tech stack. I’m guessing that some project management experience would be helpful as well.

      1. Abe Froman*

        I’m mostly looking for things that have a high focus on training/presenting skills and strategy. I do have some project management experience, but not much. And I have a lot of experience with different CRMs, but not Salesforce.

  2. Melanie Cavill*

    Thank you to everyone who advised last week re: letting my team lead know about an internal application. I did end up telling her after the long weekend. She was very gracious, said she imagined the role would be a good fit for me, and said she would advocate for me if anyone on the hiring team approached her.

    Now I’m psyduck.jpg-ing over something else in this process. I was told I wouldn’t hear back until after the posting was closed – which likely would have meant this coming Monday at the earliest. Instead, they ended up arranging an interview for me midway through this week. Three people from Potential New Office are driving over a half hour/forty kilometres to Current Office (which is in the middle of nowhere) in order to meet me. I may just vibrate out of observable reality in anticipation because I cannot begin to decipher what that means. It’s a level of courtesy I’m unused to as an applicant! Fortunately, the unknowable trickster deity we call Imposter Syndrome is there to whisper in my ear all the worst possible potential interpretations of said courtesy.

    Also! Random question for hiring managers out there: what would your opinion be if someone came to an interview dressed appropriately, but wearing sparkly nail polish in bold colours?

    1. Vivian*

      To your last point, I would, perhaps unfairly, assume that they will be a Big Personality on the team. But I wouldn’t consider it a negative, much less a dealbreaker, for any level of the organization. It would be uncommon in a director role (fwiw, I hire for early career, not director levels) but I’d still only be concerned that they know their shit rather than their choice of nail polish.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Not a hiring manager, but if I was meeting a potential coworker dressed appropriately and they had bold fingernails my “inner light” buttons would be pushed and I’d be excited to find out whether the potential coworker was going to have lovely hidden surprises.

      Amazing that they’re coming to you! Good luck!

      1. Fran Fine*

        +1 to your first paragraph.

        I would think you were cool, Melanie. Good luck on your interview!

    3. DarthVelma*

      My agency’s mission involves very young children, so take my answer in that context. For us, even in the central office and in higher level roles, bright sparkly nail polish wouldn’t be a big deal. Just like with hair dyed in unusual colors, unless you’re in a very conservative industry, I don’t see that kind of individual expression mattering nearly as much as it did at the start of my career 25 years ago.

    4. Ama*

      Bold nail polish would not bother me, given that I am fond of a bold nail myself (mine are currently bright fuschia). I think these days as long as the polish is in good condition and not extremely noticeably chipped it doesn’t really matter what color it is.

      I would probably ask you what brand/color you were wearing, though.

    5. PollyQ*

      Tell your internal Imposter Trickster God that there are no bad implications of people being eager to interview you! In fact, it’s probably not about you at all, just that they want to get the show on the road and don’t see any reason to wait. Best of luck!

      1. Melanie Cavill*

        It’s less the sped up timeline and more that they’re driving a not inconsiderable distance to interview me, and knowing for a fact that I’m the only person in my office that has applied for the role. Maybe they’re going to the local waterpark after? That’s a thing people do, right?

        And thank you!

        1. Books and Cooks*

          Definitely don’t mean to pour cold water, but might it help your nerves if you think of it as, “They wanted to come put in some face time at this location anyway, and saw interviewing me as a chance to do it?” or “One of them just got a new car and is eager to do a mini road trip?”

          Again, don’t mean to be all “Get over yourself.” I think it’s exciting, too! But if it’s making you nervous or overexcited, and you want to try not to think of it as “they must be really interested in me!” terms, those are two reasons I can think of that have nothing to do with you.

          Best of luck to you!

          1. Melanie Cavill*

            That’s an excellent point! It definitely doesn’t help my nerves to try and find meaning in it. And thank you! :)

        2. PollyQ*

          I don’t think a half-hour drive is that all much, actually. It’d have to be at least an hour to get my attention. And you don’t know where they’re starting from. Perhaps they all live in between the two offices, so it’s only 15-20 minutes for them. And it is summer, so the waterpark is a definite possibility! ;-)

          1. Melanie Cavill*

            I’ll know the interview was a success (went swimmingly, if you will!) if they invite me to the waterpark with them.

          2. to varying degrees*

            Yeah, at least where I’m at a half hour doesn’t even register. The most I have driven for my day to day job was an hour, one-way and I drove 20-25 minutes, no traffic one-way at my last job.

            Best wishes and good vides wo you Melanie!! And wear the sparkly nail polish. If you start getting nervous/in-your-head too much, it’ll make you happy.

            1. Melanie Cavill*

              Fair! It’s just an interesting inversion of the typical power dynamic that interviewers (with only one of them actually being HR) are taking time out of their workday to come to me, rather than the other way around. That plus the distance is what surprised me.

              And thank you! That’s very sweet of you to say.

    6. Delta Delta*

      Re Nail Colors: I’ve long been a fan of bright/bold/dark/sparkly nail color, even before it was popular. I had nail polish in every color of the rainbow when I was a kid. I remember specifically being on the school bus one day in 5th grade and a mean 7th grader turned to me and said, “If you wear that nail polish to middle school you’re going to get teased like crazy.” I wore the nail polish and nobody, not even she, teased me a little, not even “like crazy.” This was in the early 1990s.

      Point being, there are some people who just really like bright nails and always have and can’t help it (mine are blue right now), and if you’re not offered a job because of your nail color, that’s not the job for you, anyway. If you’re really worried about it, maybe skirt the line with dark purple or red or magenta so it still looks like an expected nail color but isn’t every-other flamingo pink and pool blue (not that I’ve done that, or anything)

      1. Melanie Cavill*

        The point about not wanting a job that would deny me because of my nails is a salient one and I’m glad you said it!

        That said, I’m not worried so much as debating how to handle my regularly scheduled weekend nail painting. The sparkly multichrome make the happiest / feel most like myself, but for interviews I generally go more neutral… and make sure both hands are the same colour. On the other hand, how boring is that? etc. This may or may not be a fun distraction to keep me from stressing about the actual interview.

        2. Books and Cooks*

          I would definitely make sure both hands are the same color. I have a weird aversion to differently-colored hands or every-other-nail-is-different when it comes to adults; it definitely wouldn’t affect my decision on something like hiring, because that’s not fair, but I can’t guarantee it wouldn’t distract me during the interview at least a tiny bit. (And before anyone says anything, I would and do definitely take cultural context into consideration, as well.) (And also, I myself have had long nails for thirty years, and have painted them all kind of colors; I’m just oddly distracted by different colors on each hand or finger. I tried it once and had to redo it the next day because it drove me crazy. Again, wouldn’t hold it against anyone, especially not in hiring–to each their own–but I might find it a bit distracting.)

          Maybe try something that’s unique, but not as bold or obvious? Like a differently-colored French tip, or the “dull tip” thing (where the nail bed is shiny bit the tips are matte, or vice versa)? Or white/skin tone with glitter (or a glitter tip/fade into glitter), because you don’t always “see” the glitter depending on the angle/light? I would definitely find something like that really cool, and think of it as fun, as opposed to every-finger-a-different-bright-color.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      As a hiring manager: I PROBABLY wouldn’t even notice the sparkly bold nail polish, to be 100% honest. But if I did, I would assume that you would subsequently not be bothered by the fact that if my nails are polished at all, then at least three of them are a different color from the rest, and would otherwise be unlikely to be thrown off too badly by the potential of having a slightly eccentric manager. (Fairly high chance that I would also be wearing a Star Wars t-shirt with both a skull and a full skeleton visible behind me on camera. Luckily, I work in the medical field. Also luckily, my team thinks I’m amazing.)

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Nail polish…it wouldn’t be a negative in itself, but if the person was unprepared in any way I wouldn’t be able to resist thinking “you had time to paint your nails but not prepare for the interview” and what that says about their priorities…

      1. Emma2*

        Could I just suggest that this is quite unfair? Women tend to be judged and mocked for spending “too much” time on their appearance, and judged and mocked for being “insufficiently” well groomed.
        For all you know, the 30 minutes the candidate spent getting her nails done were the only 30 minutes she was able to spend unwinding/relaxing all week. Other candidates may have spent the same 30 minutes going for a run, watching trashy television shows, etc. Almost all of us take some small amount of time for ourselves, and I don’t think it is particularly helpful to judge candidates for that.
        I also think it’s helpful to remember that we rarely know everything that is going on with other people. I know women who always have their nails manicured because chemotherapy left their nails so damaged they don’t feel comfortable leaving them undone – should we judge them for daring to spend a small part of their week getting their nails done instead of spending every moment preparing for the interview?

      2. Lumos*

        I think this a really unfair interpretation you should challenge in yourself. Nail polish can possibly last a long time without chipping. If the person is wearing acrylics they can last even longer and you have no way to know whether they did it themselves or had a previously scheduled appointment they couldn’t really move or that was way before the interview. If they’re unprepared for the interview that has nothing to do with their nail polish habits and you can judge them solely on their unpreparedness without even in your own head bringing their nails into it.

      3. RetailEscapee*

        This is not an excellent take.
        If she shows up with a chipped nail someone will think she’s sloppy or not detail oriented. If she has no polish she’s dumpy or lazy or g-d forbid masculine. Now she gets regular manis or acrylics and that means she has less time to prepare for interviews? Do you wonder how an unprepared make candidate had time to shave? This is just misogyny with extra steps.

    9. Generic Name*

      re: random question. Do you want to work at a place that might judge you for wearing nail polish that you enjoy? Presumably you are not currently unemployed and enjoy the luxury of being able to choose, I would choose to wear the nail polish I wanted, and if someone rejected me for a job over it, it wouldn’t be a good fit anyhow.

      As to my opinion, I would think, “Ooh, fun!” and I might even compliment you. One of my best friends is into nail art and sparkly nail polish, and she’s just the best. :)

      1. Melanie Cavill*

        I was thinking of it more, like – I wouldn’t show up for a job interview wearing jeans, but if an office had a strict no-jeans policy, I’m not sure I would want to work there. I’m not bothered by having a more traditional neutral manicure for an interview, but I’d view it the same way I’d view a dress code: the sparkles come back as soon as the jeans do. For interviews, I really was just wondering how it looks from the other side of the table.

    10. Becky S.*

      Several years ago Philadelphia got its first ever female police commissioner. She showed up for her first day wearing black nail polish. someone pointed out to her that her polish color violated the rules. She promptly changed the rules.
      ;-)

    11. Merci Dee*

      I work in accounting (granted, in private industry), and have been wearing bold and sparkly nail colors for years. Just about every time I change my nail color on the weekends, a handful of people notice on Monday and tell me how much they love the new color — those handful of people know that my nail polish motto is, “there’s no color so awesome that it can’t be improved by a coordinating glitter polish”. One of the people who typically compliments me on my new polish colors is my direct supervisor.

      Interesting story, though. I graduated from college in May 2000. A couple of months before graduation, the school arranged for a group of women who worked in various accounting jobs around town to come and act as “mentors” for a day-long conference they were putting on for women who were graduating from my college’s school of business. The night before the conference, I had painted my nails with a basic silver glitter polish — the polish was clear, it just has silver glitter in it. You really had to look to see the glitter on my nails, the effect was that low-key. During the conference, the “mentor” sitting at my table was talking about grooming, looking neat and professional, etc. She gave me a kind of side-eye look and said, “you won’t be able to wear outrageous nail polishes like that when you go into accounting. You’ll have to stay with clear, pale pink, or nude. And maybe you can get away with a darker red the week before Christmas.” So, I went on to graduate in May, and got my first job in a small accounting firm about a month after I graduated. From the time that I walked into that small firm until now, no one had really given two flying flips about how I paint my nails. And I do some fun themed nails for the holidays, including a set that featured painted blood dripping from the tips during Halloween.

      1. Melanie Cavill*

        My mother has a similar outlook that your mentor did. Back in university, I worked in an MP’s office, and she told me once that the MP would never take me seriously because my nails were, that week, a dark forest green. No sparkles, no art, just a creme. Despite finding the condemnation quite silly, I think that’s stuck with me a bit.

        1. Merci Dee*

          Here’s the picture that jumped into my head with the creme dark forest green polish . . . .

          The forest green as a background color. Then take a green that’s about 2 or 3 shades lighter, but still coordinates nicely, and a thin brush. On a couple of nails (thumb nails, and then one or two others), paint small clusters of line-art pine trees. Start from the cuticle of the nail, and paint the trees off-center, slightly more to one side of the nail or the other. Use the lighter green to draw two or three vertical lines of different lengths, but no longer than the middle of your nail. Then on each vertical line, do small angled lines on either side for the branches, shorter at the highest end of the vertical line, and then longer as it gets down toward the middle of the vertical line where the branches stop. The effect would be really subtle and easy to miss, but would be so cute when you noticed it.

      2. Lumos*

        As a fellow accountant who is currently rocking rainbow hair, I love this. I also got told I would never be able to have that in the accounting field and that is definitely wrong. I need to add amazing nails to my style rotation.

        1. Merci Dee*

          I’ve also got 11 earrings in my ears — 5 pairs, and then a lone stud at the top of my right ear that’s not matched on the left side. I have shoulder-length hair that’s spiral curly, and had usually worn it down before the pandemic, so my ears weren’t a big deal. But since the pandemic, I’ve been wearing my hair pulled back every day with cloth head bands to make it easier to get my mask on and off, so my ears have really been on display. I have a massive collection of really cool earrings that I wear as the mood strikes me (full disclosure — I only ever change the bottom holes, mostly because I’m kind of lazy in that regard, and the studs in my other 4 sets of piercings are all sort of neutral gems so they’ll go with anything), and I get lots of complementary comments on my earrings. Halloween is my favorite holiday, and the people in the area immediately around my desk make an excuse to stop by my cube every day during October so they can see which Halloween-themed earrings I’m wearing for the day. They range from small and cute little clear bottles holding purple glitter with a “potion” sticker on the bottle, to a set of dangly mermaid skeletons that brush my shoulders. One set is of adorable black cats that have fur pom poms for the body and tails that can swing back and forth. I’ve got several sets of jeweled spiders, a set of sugar skulls, a set that’s a regular skeleton, but dressed in a tulle skirt with a little rose crown on its head. It took me a few years, but I finally found 31 sets of Halloween earrings so that I could wear a different set on each day of Spooktober. :)

            1. Lumos*

              I agree with this assessment. Are the skueletons with the tutus from Betsey Johnson? I have a set of earrings that are similar from her so I’m wondering. I don’t have more than two ear piercings but I am also rocking snake bites. (I take them out for video calls though, just in case)

              1. Merci Dee*

                No, they’re not Betsey Johnson earrings — just some little things I picked up from Walmart a couple of years ago because they were so adorable.

                The best thing about my Halloween earrings is this . . . my daughter, who is 17, has been amused at my annual hunt for new earrings to add to my collection. I didn’t really have a place to keep all of my Spooktober earring collection together anymore, so for Christmas she found a cute wooden storage box and painted the top with a night sky theme. A blackish-blue sky with a nice bright moon, some twinkly stars about, and fine spatters of glow-in-the-dark white paint to look like galaxies and other far-away stars whirling through the night sky. It’s the perfect place to put my collection, and I’m just counting down the days until I can pull it out and really use it for the first time.

                We celebrate on September 30 for my daughter’s birthday (18 this year!!), and then we celebrate on October 1st for the start of Spooktober! Halloween is so fabulous that it can’t be contained in one day, it has to be celebrated for the whole month!

              2. Merci Dee*

                And, also, you mentioned your snake bites and rainbow hair, and now my funky nails and off-the-wall earrings and multiple piercings. I totally love the idea that maybe, must maybe, accountants are getting more and more metal as the years go by.

            2. Merci Dee*

              Aw, you’re so sweet, Melanie!

              Hope your interview goes well! I’ll be keeping my fingers crossed for you!

    12. Observer*

      lso! Random question for hiring managers out there: what would your opinion be if someone came to an interview dressed appropriately, but wearing sparkly nail polish in bold colours?

      Are they reasonable people? Is this an unusually conservative industry?

      If the answers are Yes and No, I can’t imagine it making a difference.

    13. Just Your Everyday Crone*

      I’m in a conservative profession in a conservative (dress-wise) area (DC), and wouldn’t think twice about it, unless they were talons, and then I might.

    15. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Congrats on the interview! Good luck.

      Seems like you already have the answers you need on nail polish but just to add a final thought: I would think about it in terms of office norms, the same way you would with other aspects of your appearance. The bold hair colors mentioned by other commentators come to mind. Do other people at your workplace have bold nails or hair? How conservatively (or boringly haha) do others dress? I could see your style of nails working in a ton of offices but maybe not at say, a conservative law firm or something.

      I loved the idea brought up above of getting a manicure that’s fun like a reverse French style while keeping it from being a distracting situation just out of an abundance of caution.

    16. Mannequin*

      My mother, who would be 93 if she were still living, wore pearly bright fuschia pink nail polish all her life, including when she had a professional job as an electronic engineer in a govt. associated facility aerospace industry in the 50s & 60s.

  3. Neosmom*

    Five months (to the day) after my employer’s acquisition, my boss tells me the acquiring company’s sales team is independent, I will no longer be needed as an executive assistant (mainly supporting sales), and I will need to “find something else” in the posted jobs. So, I do exactly that.

    Then I was working on a project with the general manager, who tells me he is the GM, this is his facility, and he and HR will be mapping my executive assistant position. I explained that my current boss told me to find something else and I have acted on my boss’s instructions.

    And today, after a couple of years of me being sorely underutilized, I am needed to shepherd the conversion of our Sharepoint and Dynamics records to the acquiring company’s systems.

    It’s been a bit of an emotional roller coaster ride this week.

      1. Neosmom*

        Reviewing current responsibilities and shoehorning them into a position on the acquiring company’s list of valid job titles.

  4. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

    I cannot stand the unstructured randomness of my job (front desk reception). I hate never knowing when the phone will ring, or some random person will walk in the door. I hate trying to do anything at all and getting interrupted 10+ times in 5 minutes (not an exaggeration) because of said phone and randos. I’ve always hated these types of jobs, and I think I’m pinning down why, aside from social anxiety making me a terrible fit because I just hate dealing with people in general ’cause they spike my anxiety.

    I never got to try out different jobs when I was younger, back when you’re “supposed” to experiment to find your niches, because there were so few jobs in the remote region where I lived. So only now in my 40s am I really learning about what all is out there that’s not regular office job work.

    So many raised eyebrows at the fact that at my age, I want to get out of this job I will never turn into a career, and just hop around until I find where I fit. But that’s what I need to do. I just have no idea where to start! I keep hearing about the Great Resignation, but I’m not really seeing it translate into more job opportunities for someone like me, who doesn’t have any specialized skills but has a lot of general life experience and wants to learn new things that don’t involve answering someone else’s phones and greeting their guests. Who else here is going through this soul-searching? How’s your journey going?

    1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

      I hear you! I didn’t enjoy being a receptionist (and I’m slightly reception adjacent now, so I get it!) and part of it were the people and the constant interruption. I was fortunate to transition away from receptionist in the same company and gained a lot of office skills that way. If you like your company, see about asking for more non-receptionist related tasks (to bolster your skills) and to show you have an interest in moving away from that.

      If that’s not an option, look for lower level/entry type non-receptionist jobs that you can spin your skills to fit. You don’t have to fit 100% or even 1-1 for each type of skill- so long as you can demonstrate based on your skills and experience that what you do apply for you can handle, that should be good!

      Also, you don’t always have to be clear about what exactly you want to do next- open yourself up to different paths and be happy exploring those. I ended up doing three or four different office jobs before landing at this one, which is a sort of Gal Friday around a small office. And because it’s small, I can ask to take on different things which, if I would ever need or want to look around again for a different job, can parlay that into different roles.

      I’m a natural pessimist and I can’t tell you that job searching was ever easy, regardless of the market, but transitioning CAN be done! Good luck!

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        I’m definitely not a white-collar sort of person (my weekend part-time job I love, because I just walk alone for miles every day looking for safety hazards), but your advice can definitely be applied to breaking out of office work. Thank you!

          1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

            I’m part of what’s called a “fire watch safety team.” Literally the entire job is patrolling a factory facility indoor and outdoor looking for anything on fire or in danger of catching fire. If I see a fire that can’t be put out with an extinguisher, I would have to report it to security and let them handle things from there. It’s an hourly patrol, but the patrol part only takes about 30 min at this place, so I get to spend the rest of the time in the nice air-conditioned break room doing whatever I want. :) I love it! The pay is actually much better than my stupid desk job, too. I’d quit and do the fire stuff full time, but the fire watch is a temporary gig since they’re shutting down the facility it’s for in the fall, so I’d need to find someplace else first. :/ I did a search engine lookup for “fire watch jobs” and had some results, so you might try looking it up! :D

        2. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

          You sound like my exact opposite — I immediately get bored to tears with jobs where nothing new or unexpected happens, ever. And my social anxiety is actually cured by my “work mode” persona, because having a job/service to perform gives me an excuse to get past my usual shyness.
          That said, if you like some physical activity and not too much customer service stuff, I had a buddy who worked for the city water department going around marking up the sidewalk with a spray can (so that construction crews wouldn’t bust a water main), and he said it was a pretty great job. It sounds a little similar to the weekend job you like. Lotta movement but not, like, back-breaking labor, and he got to be pretty autonomous once he’d been given his assignments.
          If you live near any medical research hubs, lab tech jobs are also a possibility? They’re not prone to constant interruption and have (what I think of as) a nice balance of repetition and easily-anticipated breaks.

    2. ferrina*

      I went through this pre-pandemic. I was a hard worker, but having a tough time breaking into an office job. And I didn’t care what kind of job, as long as it had a desk and I could build a career in it.
      Since you don’t have a preference on field, I’d start with environment. Do you want a desk job or not a desk job? You already know that you don’t want something customer service (because you hate constant interruptions, which tend to come a lot with customer service). Then I’d narrow your job search to fields you have exposure to (like if you were a receptionist for a company that was in that field). It makes a difference if you have some familiarity with the field, and you can say “When I assisted my coworkers/heard about their job, I was fascinated by XYZ. That’s why I’m applying for this job.”
      Temping can help get a foot in the door (that’s how I got into my career), but it doesn’t come with a steady paycheck.
      Good luck!

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        Do you want a desk job or not a desk job?

        I definitely fall under not a desk job type. :D (Which is weird, since when I’m at home, I faff about on the computer all day.) I guess I like to be active for my work. Sitting around work waiting for things to happen is a major source of stress to me. I want to either have steady work with necessary breaks all shift, or else do my day’s assignments and leave when I’m done rather than sit around waiting on the clock to run out.

        Thank you for your suggestions!

        1. bunniferous*

          Real estate scratches that itch for me-but I have a unicorn of a job-I sell foreclosures for the VA (my office has a contract to do so and I am the agent that handles it. ) Every day is different, no clock to watch. I could sell regular real estate if I wanted(since I have my license) but I prefer just talking to other agents, property preservation, and doing inspection tasks. Half the job is in the field, half in my home office, and in my case I have managed to keep my weekends free. The vast majority of the time our assignments are vacant houses (and since I have experienced a foreclosure in my past, the times someone IS still in a house knows that I have been where they are and can help them in the process. The majority of the time I can hand them a check to help with moving expenses (called Cash for Keys) so that helps emotionally.

          I’m thinking that maybe you could work as a real estate assistant for someone to see if the job interests you? You don’t necessarily need a license to start out-but getting one would be a plus at some point.

          1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

            I’ve thought about that before, but it never sounded like something I could do without having some specialized training. This sounds more attainable. Thank you so much for mentioning it!

    3. DaniCalifornia*

      Ugggh I’ve been there! I REALLY REALLY feel you. I went from front desk, to receptionist, to office manager, to bookkeeper/admin, to admin asst. I’ve been in some sort of admin role for 16 years in health, education, finance, and now technology. I’m getting out by getting my degree in a field I love and *hopefully* a job offer this coming winter when I graduate.

      For now I would create a mantra for you everyday. This is what I did when I worked for a tax office and it was constant interruptions, phone, and people for most of the day on top of a toxic work environment. I had to get up in the morning and tell myself “I will get interrupted, I will have to answer the phone, and it will be ok. I will keep searching for something I love.” If you are decent with admin skills you might want to look into online certificates for bookkeeping or medical coding or data entry related fields that you could transition into which can require less front desk work and more quiet hours. I temped for a bit and because I could type well and quickly do data entry I got to try out some different work places. The tax office I worked for did payroll and bookkeeping and if you can balance a check register you can learn bookkeeping and QuickBooks. It wasn’t my favorite but it was constant and there was always work and less front desk time. Do you have temp agencies near you or recruiting firms that specialize in admin jobs? A lot of times depending on the admin job you could end up at an office where the field is interesting to you and you get to learn hands on and can transition into another role. My current company has offered for me to try out marketing and now that I have my degree (I’m currently an admin). I’ve had many roles that you ended up wearing a lot of hats so I have experience in managing social media, marketing, interviewing/talent acquisition, the list goes on. Here’s to hoping you can find something soon!

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        These are some great suggestions! I had a bad experience with the last temp agency I tried (flat-out lied to me about the job they were sending me to, then unsuccessfully tried to penalize me for not agreeing to take the assignment long-term when I figured out it was a bait-and-switch). But that place has gone out of business and it’s been years, so I could try again somewhere else. Thank you!

    4. MW*

      I feel this!

      I took a job in front line customer service 10 years ago because I needed a job, any job, thinking I’d be there for a year or two. Well, 10 years later I now manage the team but it’s still customer service which was never what I wanted to do and I’m enough of an introvert that it’s stressful anyway even without the increase in people being rude etc that we’ve seen over the past couple of years (and wow some people are SO challenging). But it has been so long now I don’t know how to get out or do anything different, at least not without taking a significant pay cut because I also acquired a whole bunch of bills and responsibilities in the last decade.

      I’m currently looking into possible sideways moves with more of an online service focus rather than in person, and really trying to highlight my other project experience etc in applications. Because I DO have transferable skills, it’s just difficult to make myself believe that after so long in this kind of job. I also think part of the problem is that I’ve been in the same place so long that I’ve, like, got my niche at this organisation? And going somewhere else might be a chance to carve out a slightly different niche, even if it still in a more service-y role than I’d like.

      At least that’s where my soul searching has got me so far! Good luck with everything! And if anyone has any tips or advice, they’d be very gratefully received.

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        I think sliding sideways sounds like a good idea. I really hope you slide into something you love!

    5. Person from the Resume*

      I would hate your job and be anxious for all the reasons you mentioned.

      I agree there is more than regular office work (ie white collar jobs), but lots of regular office work is not like reception and doesn’t have that kind of unexpected human interactions that a recptionist has.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        By that first line I mean sympathy and commiseration. It’s not a fit for introverts or socially anxious people.

        1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

          I appreciate the sympathy! :) And yeah, it’s definitely not good for anxiety. It doesn’t make me “get used to people and be less anxious” like non-anxious people keep insisting it will; it just pulls my anxiety triggers more every day.

    6. Rosengilmom*

      Especially if you have computer skills, it may help to sign on with a temporary services agency. Their assignments are usually for a fixed period of time before moving on to the next. You get to test-drive each job and potential employer.

    7. Generic Name*

      Yeah, that is very unstructured. If you love structure and predictability, working for the federal government may be right up your alley. Maybe in a file clerk type role? USAJobs is where all the fed jobs are posted.

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        I’m really amused at this suggestion, because I used to be a rural substitute mail carrier and loved it. :) I wanted to make a career out of it, but had to leave because of then-undiagnosed health problems. (Now the USPS has been so thoroughly sabotaged and gutted that it’s not what it was twenty years ago. Plus, I have a lot of lingering damage from my health problems that would make doing the heavy physical labor part unsustainable.) I’ll look at other positions on that site, thank you!

    8. My Useless 2 Cents*

      I posted a similar question below. In my 40’s and really wanting to do something else but not really knowing what. I don’t understand why people over 20 aren’t expected to want to learn new things. I never thought of it being something you grow out of. Sorry, I obviously have no advise to give as I’m asking my own but you are not alone!

      2. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        Posted too soon. I wanted to add that learning is an important part of my existence! The idea that you learn everything you need to know in your childhood and twenties is one that I’ve never understood. No wonder so many people stay stuck in bad jobs, if they’re ones not even trying to learn anything that can help them! I tend to get fed up with jobs where I both learn everything I can AND have no room to grow. I’ve learned everything I can from reception, decades ago actually, but I’m too swamped and washed out from anxiety to learn anything new that I can take a new job. I’ve tried–my brain just won’t latch on to new information. This always happens when I reach a particular stage of burnout, and is only fixed by leaving the bad situation entirely. Taking a vacation won’t fix it. But yeah, I agree that it’s weird that people think it’s weird to want to learn and change yourself in your 30s or later!

    9. Jora Malli*

      I’m in this boat with you, and I think on some level, the Great Resignation is hurting rather than helping me. I’m trying to move into a new field (any field! just not customer service!), but with so many people switching jobs within their current fields, I feel like I’m at a disadvantage. When I look through the list of jobs I’ve applied for on Indeed, they all say that 500-1000 other people also applied, and if even half of those people have existing experience in the field while all of my experience is transferable from a different field, then of course I’m not getting called in for interviews. If I were hiring, I’d probably take the candidate with the in-field experience too.

      I’ve tried two temp agencies so far, even though as a 40 year old with bills to pay the idea of not having a guaranteed salary is terrifying, but all they’ve offered so far are call center jobs. I have to get out of my current field, but nothing I’ve done has gained me any results at all.

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        Yes, this has been my experience so far! Except that I haven’t tried temp agencies yet–I’m still trying to work out the logistics of that one since I really need something lined up before leaving current job, but I don’t have free time off to hit up a temp agency and do their placement stuff.

        Honestly, I’m thinking I may have to just carve my own path at this stage–I used to run a successful business that I only stopped due to health issues (which is why I’ve had to leave most work, sadly). Those issues are now resolved, and I feel I could make a place for myself doing that kind of self-employment again.

    10. Juneybug*

      I would suggest to look at all of the tasks/duties/responsibilities you do that are not your primary job.
      For example, I was admin/office support for 16 years. One of my many but small responsibilities was records management. Hey, I have 16 years of experience in the records management field!
      I then looked for records management positions, changed my resume to reflect my experience, training, accomplishments, etc. that only pertained to records management. Few months later, got a records management job with the state.
      Good luck! We all look forward to you being a good news submitter soon!

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

        I like this idea! I have been trying to think of how best to rework my resume so I don’t look like a reception lifer, and this is a nice way to emphasize other roles within a job.

        And I really appreciate your optimism for that future good news Friday!

    11. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      Do you work where there are local government jobs, like in a county seat or state capitol? After I lost a job that I loved, but with no actual transferable skills (unless the same type of job opened up somewhere) and no degree, I was in a similar situation. There was a posting for a job at the county government center, and part of the process was taking a series of tests (keyboard, sorting skills, might have been a few others), and just one or two interviews. The job was in the assessor’s office, and our crew worked on property transfers – mostly making sure all the forms were correct, but also light research to make sure the properties were correctly identified, and occasional deeper research as needed. 90% of it was sitting in a cubicle and 10% was research in plat books. There wasn’t much human interaction except breaks and lunch, and if we had questions. I wasn’t there long because unlike you, I prefer less predictability, and my dream job that was similar to my old one reached out with an offer. But there are all kinds of behind-the-scenes government jobs. My husband has worked in the court system for decades, and most of the people there have no degrees and a variety of odd job experiences that were going nowhere. Good luck!

      1. Not Your Admin Ass(t*

        This is really good advice that I hadn’t thought about until these comments. I’m gonna look into it along with the other suggestions, thank you!

  5. LinkedIn blocking*

    Any LI experts here? The internet is not helping me with this.

    Is there a way to block people on LinkedIn without removing them from your network? The only way I can see to do it removes the connection, and the person I have in mind is definitely keeping track of that sort of thing.

    1. ThatGirl*

      Go to a post they’ve made or liked or reposted or whatever and choose “Unfollow Gertrude Pennyworth” – you’ll stop seeing their posts/likes/etc in your feed.

      But I don’t think you can block them from seeing *your* stuff if you’re a connection.

      1. LinkedIn blocking*

        Yeah, I specifically want them to stop checking up on me. Not worried about seeing their stuff in my feed.

          1. LinkedIn blocking*

            It’s complicated, and explaining the whole thing would be doxxable.

            Nothing scandalous or fascinating, just small town nonsense that is making life harder than it needs to be.

            1. quill*

              Small town gossip nonsense is usually only stopped by cutting people off from the source of information. It’s probably actually less trouble to block so and so and then play it off as “technology, so complex!” than to try and find how to shadow block them.

        2. ThatGirl*

          You can do a lot with settings for the general public, but I don’t think you can stop a connection from seeing your profile/feed/etc. That’s the whole point of being a connection.

          Is there a reason you don’t want to just remove and block them and be done with it?

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            This sounds like asking Linked In to come up with a feature where people will think they are connected to you, but it won’t be true. It seems like LI would find that counterproductive, and it would set off a whole wave of “How can I check that my connections are connected connected?”

            I don’t want to rule out that there is a way to do this, because engineers are always trying to connect refrigerators to the internet so who knows what feature someone has added in.

            1. ThatGirl*

              yeah, basically – from a social POV I can understand asking, but I think you have to accept the consequences either way — either this person can see what you post, comment, etc (and you are always free to use LI less) or you accept the consequences of disconnecting from them.

    2. Generic Name*

      Can you block them and then have a friend keep tabs on them and let you know if they post anything concerning?

    3. RagingADHD*

      The problem with small town nonsense is that there is always a point at which it becomes impossible to dodge and weave anymore.

      Eventually you have to either lie down or stand up for yourself.

  6. Kimmy Schmidt*

    I’m looking for ergonomics suggestions. My new office and job are great! However, the office chair is not. I can’t quite put my finger on why, but it’s hurting in my mid-back, like right around where my bra-line-back-fat is. The chair seat almost feels like it maybe tilts forward very slightly? Or doesn’t quite lower as much as I want it to?
    The furniture is new and everyone has the same chair.

    It’s also entirely possible it’s something else. I’ve never found a good office setup that doesn’t leave some part of my body sore, compounded by the fact that I cannot sit still and move and sit in all kinds of weird ways.

    1. Velomont*

      Have you thought of getting a foam, cylindrical back support? It may not be the cure-all you’re looking for but it will give you the ability to move it around and get a better idea of what works for you.

    3. Sundial*

      Search on Amaz-n for “Bangled Lumbar Support, Back Support with Wooden Beads Provide Massage Feature, Breathable Back Support Cushion for Car Home and Office Chair”. It doesn’t have to be that exact item, but that style of product has worked well for me.

    4. Annika Hansen*

      Can you find a manual for your chair? Sometimes you can change the tilt of your seat. Also, are you shorter or taller than the average man? You may need a different size chair. This can even hold true if you just have something like long/short legs or long/short torso but are of average height. I am only 5’5″, but my legs are of similar length to my 6’4″ husband. I have a chair designed for a taller person so the seat supports my legs better.

    5. Observer*

      Also, do your legs dangle?

      Look at the height of your monitor and the height of your keyboard an mouse.

    6. FalsePositive*

      Depending on the chair, the seat may tilt forward/back as well as slight forward back. There may be lumbar support you can adjust. You could ask check the “back stop” if it has one — this controls how far the back leans (or doesn’t). If you can figure out the brand/model, you look for directions on the options to adjust.

    7. Kacihall*

      I have tried many different chairs. Found a cushion and lumbar combo from Cushion Lab that were pricy (but way cheaper than a great chair!) but I don’t hurt every day, so it was totally worth it.

    8. morjin*

      I get pain in the EXACT same spot and it’s very painful when it flairs up. My bff is a AT and postural expert, and explained to me the culprit is when my head is not in line with my neck. For a lot of us, our heads are usually forward or down as we look at our screens all day – the weight of your head without the proper support of your spine holding it in place puts a lot of strain on those back muscles. Throughout the day, especially when I’m at my desk, I try to remember to bring my head back so I have a long spine (if you’re doing it correctly, you’ll have a nice double chin). A great place to do this is your car too because you have the headrest for support to push back on. There are a ton of exercises you can do throughout your day to stretch and strengthen those muscles.

      Other things I’ve found helpful:
      * Raising my monitors in line with my eye level so I’m not constantly looking down even a fraction
      * Locking my chair in place so it doesn’t rock back and forth – I would tend to lean far back in my chair and that would just exasperate the postural issues
      * If you are able to do so – try to get a chair with a head rest so it will remind you to keep your head in line with your spine. My husband and SIL both have desk jobs and have the Autonomous ErgoChair and rave about it

      I hope you find some relief – I quite literally feel your pain!

    9. I'm just here for the cats!*

      Is there anyone at your new job that is ergonomics trained? At my previous job there was a training that people could take to become ergonomically certified (or something like that it was 5 years ago). This wasn’t something through the company itself but an outside contractor. It would teach how to set up the desk, computer, etc for an individual. I wish I could remember what the training was called, but I never took it but my manager had. Maybe ask your manager if they know of anything or anyone who could help make your desk better.

  7. My Useless 2 Cents*

    I am completely burnt out and dissatisfied at my current job. I seriously started looking for a new job in Feb of 2020 but then the pandemic happened and the search stalled out then got put aside. I’ve casually looked since but can’t seem to find the motivation to kick it into gear. I’ve thought about trying to change careers entirely as the thought of doing what I’ve been doing for 20 years isn’t appealing (which I think is part of my problem). However, I can’t really afford to make less than I am now. Anyone been thru something similar or have any advice?

    **To complicate this, I’ve been dealing with an on-going health issue that leaves me utterly exhausted. I literally spent 20 minutes staring at the wall the other day trying to find the energy to move from my couch to my bed. (I actually am getting better but sometimes it just hits me like a ton of bricks.) So just “buckling down” or trying to force myself to job search for X minutes a day is just not working.

    1. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

      I am going through this exact situation, complete with chronic fatigue that is making it actually impossible to do my job well in certain situations, and I can only say I have all the empathy for you. I hope we both find something new and better!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Sounds like there are a few roadblocks in your job search. Changing careers: you aren’t motivated to search for jobs like the one you have now. Do you have any ideas for jobs/careers you want to pivot to? Identifying something you’re excited about applying to will probably give you more motivation to work on resumes/cover letters/applications.

      If you don’t have anything in mind right now, I think the order of operations is roughly:
      ID jobs/field you’re interested in > evaluate what level you’ll likely start at with your experience/skills > how much does that job in that field at that level typically pay?

      For the health issue: if you have good days and bad day, maybe a weekly or monthly target for applications sent out would be better than “X minutes per day.” That way you can spend more time on your good days and rest on the bad days.

    3. Abbott*

      Feel your pain. I’m facing some extreme anxiety right now over a change in status at my job (filling in for someone who left) – and I was already dealing with a lot of dissatisfaction prior to this happenng. I don’t have words of wisdom. But, is it possible you could take some time off to re-align yourself? Give you a few free days to sit down and contemplate options. That might make you feel better.

      If a vacation isn’t possible, maybe take this weekend. Order in some dinner or binge watch a few episodes of your favorite show and then type in your dream job and scroll through your phone to review positions that could work or could inspire other opportunities.

      And if all else fails, be kind to yourself. (I wish I could be nice to me)

    4. ferrina*

      Hugs! This is really rough. I didn’t have a health problem, but I had other life things that made it really hard to job search. A few things that made it easier on me:
      1. Don’t hold yourself to a consistent standard. Trust yourself to do what you can when you can, and know that investing in your health is also investing in your job search. Navigating your health issue will impact your job search, so don’t compromise on that process.
      2. Is this a motivation issue or an energy issue? If you really want to and just don’t have the energy, talk to your doctor about that. I had a friend who was highly motivated but for a time just had no energy- her doctor diagnosed her with depression, and the meds have made all the difference. She didn’t have the sadness symptom, just the exhaustion. There’s a LOT of health conditions that cause fatigue, so def consult a doc.
      3. If this is a motivation issue, what will motivate you? I used to buy a lottery ticket for every application I filled out. I figured one way or another, I’d eventually get lucky.
      4. Don’t waste your time on jobs you’re not excited by. You’ve got limited energy, so spend it on what you love.
      5. Have everything pre-written. I have a long version of my resume and cover letter, which I then edit down for each job app. My resume has bullets for all of my accomplishments, then for an app I cut it down to the ones most relevant for that one. My long cover letter has paragraphs highlightling 6 different skills I have- for an app I choose 2-3 of those skills then make minor tweaks to the relevant paragraphs (rather than writing the whole letter from scratch).
      Good luck!

    5. CatCat*

      I totally hear you. Almost the exact same boat (minus the health issue, which is making it even harder and more exhausting for you than being in this kind of place already is). What has helped me is (1) working through a coaching program with a career coach to help me explore alternative careers, and (2) therapy to cope with burnout. I started the career coaching first, but only really made significant progress through that program after starting therapy. Looking back, I wish I’d started them together or started therapy first.

    6. Sister Spider*

      I am going through this as well. I switched from government to private industry work about 4 years ago and now my daily job isn’t something I ever thought I would end up doing. My career was also pretty severely impacted by Covid making me pivot to covering several responsibilities thanklessly and having a pandemic baby. Other options out there involve heavy travel, and I’m also trying to have another child and need to provide healthcare for my family and not lose my salary while recovering from childbirth. Hell of a system we have here.

    7. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Ah, this is me too. I had been working since 2019 to figure out where I wanted to change to; health issues and pandemic and the like have kept me locked in at current job for the last three years and like you I need to leave but cant get up the energy to apply to anything in my current line – which I dont want to do anymore. However, in the last few months I’ve sort of gotten it together. Here is what I did:

      1) Before I went and got yet another career change coach (a friend had approached me starting her own thing) I sat back down and looked at everything I had done up to then. And there was one field in particular which has come up over and over and over again in the last ten years that I have been exploring more into what I want to do vs what I am doing. Yes, its been that long.

      2) I decided I didnt have anything to lose to commit to exploring this area further, though it quickly threw up the issue of training/background vs new salary etc

      3) Did some more digging, recognized where this would overlap with my current role and where it wouldn’t. Realized that there are a few roles in-between where I thought I wanted and where I am which would give me the best of both worlds and a natural bridge without hopefully losing too much salary at the start.

      4) Learned more about those roles, titles, looked at current title holders on LinkedIn, etc. Compared my skills with needed skills, especially at higher pay scales. Looked at job postings and noticed how I felt – I felt excited! That I wanted to apply! This was considerably different to doing any search in the past for my current title.

      5) Approached boss with desire for certain components of training in new area – a fast track course to try it out (I liked it! The people were my tribe!), then considering specific projects I wanted to run internally to get my current job done, but starting to trial new approaches in this new field. Ill be doing that this fall.

      6) Identifying people in my networks, at work and otherwise, who have some sort of connection in this new area. A junior who used to work for me just moved to a company with several areas doing this work. I could move within the sector I am in now but doing this new type of work. Im not keen on my sector but half and half may be enough to get started in the new field at the very least.

      So that is where I am at now and in three months have made quite a bit of progress. I also have been reading the “classic” books on the topic, learning some key software, and will be getting a resume writer on board to help me reposition and update my resume for the market and the field. I also started a side project at home to learn some more components as well.

      I have to say that once I committed to a potential path and kept taking the next step, the solutions seemed to come. But I had been afraid for a long time to make that commitment and it really locked me in. So my advice is to first figure out where you want to go (have a look at careershifters for some exercises) and then start exploring and finding ways to try things out in your day to day. I couldnt believe the shift in my energy and how all of a sudden I could see opportunity that I DID want to chase after – both in current role and new jobs. Its really helped my overall fatigue as well.

    8. MigraineMonth*

      I don’t know if this applies to your situation, but I had a chronic stress-related health issue and got burnt out at my last job. At first, I tried switching/taking a hiatus from my lucrative but stressful profession: I applied to be a dog walker/groomer and an Escape Room guide and looked into what it would take to become a park ranger.

      In the end, I found a personally meaningful and much less stressful job in my profession. The pay is much lower than my previous job (though better than dog walking), but it has been nice to be able to coast. (Particularly because that chronic condition turned out to be neither chronic nor stress-related and I had to take month off for surgery and recovery.)

      If you used to love your work, and you can take a salary cut for a year or two, you might try “down-shifting” like I did and see if that rekindles the joy.

    9. breadrolls*

      This sounds so difficult. I don’t know if these will work for you, since my fatigue is from mental rather than physical health issues, but my strategies for trying to do exhausting things when my baseline is Tired are:

      1. Decrease the physical and mental strength it takes to start and/or finish. For example, my vacuum being “put away” means it’s tucked into a corner, plugged into a wall outlet, ready to go the moment I feel even a little capable of cleaning. For digital tasks, this means relying heavily on bookmarks, saved logins, notes on my phone, and putting any apps I want to convince myself to use right where I will see them immediately and click on them out of habit when I’m bored. To write emails or resumes and cover letters, I rely on templates and stock phrases to make them easier and less stressful to put together and send.

      2. If motivation/energy strikes, follow it whenever you can. Even if the timing is kind of bad, if I have an idea I try to write it down. If I’m working on one task and suddenly I feel like a more important task I’m avoiding is doable, I’ll switch tasks. If a task I avoid can be bundled with something I *have* to do (or want to do), I try to do them together.

      3. Do the easy part, even if it seems pointless if you can’t also do the hard part. If I need to make a medical appointment and am avoiding it, I’ll look up my insurance info the moment that feels doable even if I know I won’t look for a doctor immediately. If I remember where to find the online portal that shows my in-network providers, I’ll bookmark the portal even if I’m not going to use it right now. If I find a doctor but don’t have the energy to call, I’ll write their name and number down so I can call the second it feels possible. There is no step too small to be worth doing if that’s the step that feels doable. So if you don’t usually have the strength to actively look for jobs, just finding a new job board, or subscribing to alerts for a board you like, or saving a job to come back to later all still *matter*.

      4. Take a guilt-free break to focus on your health and your joy. When I’m struggling to change something in my life that’s making me unhappy, sometimes the fact I’m struggling to change just becomes an additional source of unhappiness. Which, unsurprisngly, is not helpful! So once I notice that I’m trying to knock a wall down with my head rather than a sledgehammer, I turn my back to it to give myself time to recover and look at something else. All the time I “should” give to Trying To Change instead goes to finding more immediate sources of joy. Then I keep that up until noticing the original unhappiness once again feels galvinizing rather than doubly miserable.

    10. tennisfan*

      I find my brain is like a muscle. The more I think/worry/get caught up in my emotions, the more tired I get, even if physically I’m just sitting at my desk. And it’s super difficult to recover from, because we’re constantly using our brains.

      I’ve taken time off before where I forbid myself from thinking (easier said than done I know, but I find doing something distracting like watching tv/reading/taking a walk/drinking tea, what have you, to be helpful).

  8. OnTheRoadWithNotFriends*

    If you are traveling with a co-worker who you don’t normally travel with, do you give them a heads up that you don’t plan on going out to dinner (with a good, work related excuse) or do you wait until you’re on location and only mention it IF they ask?

    In a couple of weeks, I’m traveling with a co-work I don’t normally travel with. This isn’t a friend; we don’t work together often; and I have no indication that she wants or is planning on us doing anything for dinner. It’s just on my mind because there is also some history between us that adds a wrinkle to the situation.

    Unfortunately, I was involved in her possible boyfriend/for sure friend quitting (with a good, new job lined up!) before he was let go last year. It was 100% professional, he wasn’t working out for multiple departments and not just mine but he blamed me loudly to multiple people because he did the most work for mine that had the biggest, far reaching companywide consequences. The people who know the full story understand and most people who worked with him weren’t sorry to see him go, from a professional level. My impression is that she still blames me based on multiple comments over the spring and early summer.

    We’re professional together but I have no desire to hang out with her after the comments and accusations or be on guard the entire time. We’re also only on location two nights so this isn’t a weeklong trip and the hotel we’re staying at has a full restaurant and is within easy and safe walking distance of multiple restaurants (nice live/work/eat/stay complex) .

    Just trying to avoid stress while traveling!

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I wouldn’t mention it until after you guys are done with the work day. Just a breezy “Hey I plan on heading out to find some dinner and then wind down. Hope you have a great night and I’ll see you in the morning.”

      I think if you bring it up right from the get go you might be signaling that you’re already thinking about that you don’t want to spend time with them. If they mention something about dinner or after work activities while you are traveling or having business together, then I think you are safe to say “Oh I like to do my own thing after a long day.”

      1. fueled by coffee*

        Also, from what you’ve written here, I imagine she also isn’t too fond of spending out-of-work hours with you, anyway!

    2. KofSharp*

      I like when I know ahead of time so I can plan accordingly. I like to try obscure local places, personally, and at least one of my coworkers REALLY loves fast food, and another one likes to pick up snacks at the grocery store and only get lunch out.
      Knowing and coordinating makes it easier to figure out who needs the keys to the car when.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      I wouldn’t bring it up if they ask and if they do, just feign with a generic, “I really appreciate you asking, I’m just super wiped out from today so I’m just going to head back to my room.” Something along those lines always does the trick. The good thing is travel can be pretty draining because you need to be ‘on’ more so you may very well just be tuckered out regardless.

    4. Qwerty*

      I’d give her a heads up a week before the trip. The advice doesn’t change based on your personal history – you want to keep it casual and breezy so it doesn’t sound like you are rejecting *her*. Just say something about you’ll probably be using the evenings for some alone time to recharge and wanted to give her a heads up in case that impacted her plans. I use “probably” intentionally so it sounds more like a prediction of what you’ll be in the mood for rather than straight up saying you won’t have dinner with her.

      Who knows, she might actually be stressing about this on her end too!

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Just drop a couple of signals that you’re not treating this as a bonding exercise or networking event.

      “I’m looking forward to our work trip. There’s something so relaxing about getting takeout and hanging out by myself in my hotel room for a couple of days.”

      If you accidentally end up in the hotel restaurant reading a book when she goes, you’re still not on the hook.

    6. JustMyImagination*

      I wouldn’t bring it up before but if she mentions it on your trip you can always fudge an excuse “I saw some urgent things in my email I have to catch up on”, “Need to call home”, or, if you know she can’t stand some type of food “I am going to try the great sushi/brazilian steakhouse/vegan place that I heard about”

    7. Raboot*

      I think it would be making it weird to bring it up ahead of time. Maybe only a little, but I also don’t really see an upside for either one of you of bringing it up ahead of time. Just do your own thing and if she invites you to dinner, that’s when you can bring in the breezy “on no thanks I need to recharge in the evenings” or whatever.

    8. Mephyle*

      All the advice about hinting that you’re not up to socializing with her is starting from the premise that she might want to be social with you, and you want to deflect that. Given the history you recount, the opposite seems more likely. If you’re reading her right, she may be relieved to know that you don’t want to hang out. She would probably like to know that sooner than later.

    9. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I cannot tell if you don’t want to go out to dinner at all or just not with her.
      If you are going to go out on your own, the work excuses don’t make sense, you will eventually go out and she might see you and feel you oddly rejected her – which I think is your concern?

      If you plan to order into your room, you can wait till the end of the meeting and just say, “I’m going to go order room service and catch up on work/read/etc.”

      I can see, given your history, that she might like to be assured ahead of time that you are not interested in hanging out after work during the trip. My guess is, she is planning on avoiding you so you can just wait till the end of the workday and follow the line above.

      If you really want to give a head’s up so she is not wondering, I like what QWERTY said. At some point in the next few weeks, if anything about the trip comes up, you can say, “oh, in case it impacts your plans, I’m pretty sure I’m going to get dinner on my own both evenings.”

    10. Hillary*

      My teams usually go out together most nights when we’re traveling together – it’s often our only chance to spend casual time together all year. We let each other know in advance if we have other plans, even if those plans are to go be alone. I’d mention it casually, especially if you have a prep meeting for the trip.

    11. JustaTech*

      When I’ve done work travel in the past it was expected that we would eat dinner together (if only because only the boss had a travel credit card and Concur is The Worst), lunch would be on-site and breakfast would be at the hotel.

      I did have a close coworker warn me “hey, I’m not a morning person, so I’m going to eat by myself at the buffet; I’m just not up for people until after a lot of coffee.” I really appreciated that because I am more of a morning person and I realize my awake-ness can really grate on folks who aren’t all there yet.

      So if it would be *expected* that you would eat dinner with this person (and not with other work folks) then it might make sense to give a heads-up that you’re eating alone in your room (or seeing a friend in town), so they’re not expecting to eat with you. But if it’s not how your org usually does travel dinners then I’d wait until she brings it up.

      1. OnTheRoadWithNotFriends*

        Thanks everyone! I don’t *think* she’s overly interested in having dinner with me, either which makes bringing it up even more awkward. I bring it up and can see her saying/thinking “God no! I don’t want that either!” :-) I think I’ll just play it by ear and drop one of the casual hints above if she mentions dinner. Otherwise, I think at the end of the work day, just say cheerfully, “See you tomorrow!” Luckily, I have no problem doing delivery to the hotel.

        1. MagicUnicorn*

          What about just keeping it casual? “I plan to do my own thing for meals on the trip. Do you want to meet in the lobby at 8:30 to walk to the [conference venue/client’s office] together?”

        2. Cj*

          You’re getting conflicting opinions here, but I agree with doing what you just said. I think it would be slightly weird to bring it up to any co-worker I’m traveling with, let alone somebody I don’t exactly get along with.

          It might be different if you had to drive or walk to an unsafe area, and she might not be comfortable going alone. But from what you said about being able to eat at the hotel if she doesn’t want to risk even walking to a nearby restaurant in what appears to be a safe area, I definitely wouldn’t bring it up ahead of time.

          Like other posters have noted, she probably doesn’t want to hang out with you either. At least one person mentioned that she might be relieved to know ahead of time that you don’t want to socialize with her after the work event. If she’s that worried about it, there’s no reason she can’t tell you before the trip that she plans to have dinner alone.

    12. RagingADHD*

      I wouldn’t say anything until either the other person asks, “What are you doing for dinner?” Or you are physically about to go get your food.

  9. Flowers*

    Just curious to know what you would have done in this situation –

    I’ve been at my job for 3 weeks now so I’m still new. I was running late yesterday and halfway there noticed my shirt had stains. Not sure if that’s how it was or I got them while having breakfast

    Anyways the choice was – either go to the nearest store and buy a shirt that’d make me late 20-30 minutes OR show up with a dirty shirt.

    What would you have done?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I keep 2 sweaters in the office soley for things like this, my first boss he always had a vneck sweater to throw on if needed for more formal look unexpectedly and I picked up the habit from him. But if I didn’t, I’d just wear the dirty shirt. Everyone’s spilled coffee midmorning at some point. Just laugh it off if anyone comments. “Oh I thought I’d try the new breakfast patterned blouse – not sure I’m pulling it off to be honest!”

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        “I’m God’s little magnet for coffee” is a phrase I’ve seen for this sort of thing.

        1. Flowers*

          love that phrase!

          a few years ago, at a previous job, I had been putting on my makeup in the bathroom and OF COURSE it squirt alll over my new blouse. I walked around the entire day with that stain. At home I usually do makeup first THEN get dressed to avoid this exact thing happening but that was a day.

          Funny enough, for this current job same thing happened right before I had to leave for the interview. Thankfully I was able to take an extra 5-10 minutes to get it out but the stain was still light. Still got the job lol

      2. Jora Malli*

        This. I have neutral colored cardigans in my office and car, and an infinity scarf in my work bag. I mostly do it because my workplace tends to be cold, but it’s been an added bonus on days when I have a food mishap.

      3. The New Wanderer*

        I started keeping an extra shirt in my laptop bag, one that was work appropriate, neutral, soft material, and didn’t wrinkle or take up much space. I did it b/c I sometimes sweat through shirts in the morning rather than spilling on myself, but either way it was a good solution.

      4. Mannequin*

        I am very clumsy due to dyspraxia and have a tendency to wear my food, so I eat breakfast & drink coffee before I put on my clothes for the day.

    2. ThatGirl*

      To me it depends on how obvious the stain is, and if there’s any hope of getting it out at work. I carry a tide pen with me and have been known to work on small stains in the ladies’ room, but if it’s something big and obvious I’d probably text my manager that I was having a clothing emergency and get a new shirt as quickly as possible.

      (It also depends on the job somewhat, tbh, and how big of sticklers they are on punctuality.)

      1. Pass the Just-For-Men*

        I love tide pens… until they turn and then I would have to make the choice, fix the stain or stink from putrid pen :)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yeah, these are my go-to. I keep one or two in my purse and smell them occasionally to make sure they haven’t morphed into the devil’s pee.

        2. Hatchet*

          Check out the Shout Wipes. I’ve been happily using them for years and have never noticed a bad smell with the older ones.

      2. My Useless 2 Cents*

        Agree, if small I would try and hide it and hope I could get to lunch without anyone noticing. I have a sweater I keep at work if cold that I could throw on.
        If bigger, I would probably have an “accident” with my morning soda. If possible, I would then run home to change. If not possible, a “Yeah, I had a little accident this morning.” is preferable to “I was running late this morning and didn’t notice.” (But that is just me.)

      3. Flowers*

        I can’t say tbh. They’ve always been very “oh we don’t care as long as you put in your hours” which I am SO not used to – my last job had a very firm start and end time. I did end up having an issue earlier this week so I came in 3-4 hours late but I had explained it to them – I just didn’t want it to be 2x in one week!

    3. Melanie Cavill*

      I always keep a cardigan on my chair for just such an occasion. Otherwise, wear the dirty shirt. People don’t look at our clothing as much as we imagine they do. It’s the professional equivalent of ‘no one is listening to your presentation anyway’.

    4. So they all cheap ass rolled over and one fell out*

      What kind of job is it? How important is your arrival time? Like, is it a retail job or other job where coverage is important, there’s someone else you’re relieving? Are you customer facing?

      1. Flowers*

        In office and no to all of that. But the dress code IS “business casual” or otherwise be neat and clean. Which, while I do have a good fashion sense, I struggle with being tidy. and ofc I’m a food/stains magnet.

        1. Cj*

          Since you’re a food/stain magnet, definitely do what other people here have advised and keep another shirt with you or at work, and always carry a tide pen.

          Several people mentioned keeping cardigans at work, but I know when I spill on myself it’s usually right down the front, and a cardigan wouldn’t hide it. That’s why it’s probably better to keep a whole separate shirt handy.

          If you were customer facing, I would have said to stop and get a new shirt. If the stain was really bad, I still probably would have done so if I wasn’t as new as you are, and had a little more leeway with being late without them thinking I would be chronically late.

          On the other hand, you don’t want them to think you are going to show up in stained clothing a lot either, so I’d try to work something into casual conversation about spilling on myself so they you know it wasn’t intentional and wouldn’t be happening again.

    5. I-Away 8*

      In my office, show up with stains. There are no customers pressent and there’s little chance my coworkers would notice or care. Even if someone did notice and say something, nothing bad would happen.

    6. OneTwoThree*

      I think that depends on what type of work you do.

      If you have an outside-facing roll, I would have called my manager and explained. “I’m on my way in and just spilled my morning coffee on my shirt. Since we have that big important customer meeting today, I’m going to stop off and get a new, fresh shirt. If you’d rather, I can come straight in and help prep for the meeting if that is more important.”

      If you have an inside-facing roll, I’d just roll with it. I’d try to casually bring it up in conversation. “Man, I spilled coffee on my shirt on my way in this morning. What a way to start the day!”

      Side note, I purposely chose my dry cleaner really close to my work location. I almost always have a spare shirt there for this very reason. I have a customer-facing role and love the idea fresh shirts are 5 min away, just in case.

    7. londonedit*

      When I’m in the office I work in central London, so fortunately there are plenty of shops around – I’d probably go straight to the office, dump my stuff and then nip out to buy a new top, because that would only take me 5-10 minutes at most. I do have a job that isn’t customer-facing and I do work in an environment/industry that’s on the casual side of business casual, though, so I could definitely get away with just wearing it and hoping no one noticed. I know I’d be really irritated by it personally, though, and wouldn’t be able to stop looking at the stain and being annoyed by it, so at the very least I’d probably nip out at lunchtime and buy something else to wear, and I’d make a note to bring a spare top/cardie to the office in case of future emergencies!

    8. Cocafonix*

      Show up in a dirty shirt and try to get the stain out when there, especially if punctuality is generally important. Looks recent if I can’t get it out. Story! Get another on a break, especially in advance of a meeting if it really bothers me. The spare cardigan is a good idea. I resolved a decade ago to keep only items at work I could clear off in 10 minutes and put my laptop bag before swanning out. No paper, shoes, plants, pictures, etc. Turns out my items have been a mug, tea, small hand lotion, a couple of useful job related supplies I preferred… and a lightweight cardi.

    9. Dont be a dork*

      I’d wear the dirty shirt because any new clothes I purchase I have to wash before wearing or I break out in hives and itch for the next three days. Accidents happen; they’re no big deal unless you make them so.

    10. Meghan*

      This literally happened to me this morning!

      The answer was dirty blouse. Though, I do have backup tshirts in my desk for this issue.

    11. Annony*

      It depends on the job really. For my job, I would just wear the stained shirt. But it isn’t customer facing and professional attire isn’t as important as getting stuff done.

      1. tennisfan*

        Second this! For me, I’d rather get to work as on time as possible, since that’s what people notice, and then leave to fix the shirt, when people might assume you’re at a meeting or doing work things. Then stay a little late to make up the time.

    13. Flowers*

      Lot of great responses!

      I ended up just getting to work. I was already 30 minutes late, and I had been late earlier this week. I made up my time but being late stresses me out. I’m buying a Tide Pen this weekend and packing a set of “emergency” clothes for my office & car.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Show up with the dirty shirt, “Oh I dunno what happened! omg. I did not want to be late for work. I am going to run and buy a new shirt on lunch break.”

      Not all bosses are foolish. Your boss might have said, “Go now and get something, so you feel better.”

      Fortunately, there are a couple consignment stores near my work, I’d probably go there. I have had bosses get someone to go with me to get my stalled car; another time it was windshield wipers and other things. My go-to is: express regret, state the problem, then ask for some type of help. In your case for asking for help, I’d say, “Is it okay if I run to the store on lunch? It might take a couple minutes so I would be willing to work later to make up the lost 15 minutes or so.”

      Key point: Set yourself up so you never have this problem again. People can be amazingly tolerant of odd situations that pop up, if they don’t keep seeing it over and over.

    15. RagingADHD*

      It would depend on how obvious the stains were and how visible I would be that day.

      If the job was flexible enough to allow for it, ideally I’d get there on time, check messages / email and triage anything super urgent, and then tell whoever I needed to tell, “can you believe it, already stained? Just need to run grab a replacement, back in 20 minutes.”

    16. allathian*

      Really depends on how close the nearest store was to the office, and on whether being late is an actual issue or not. Obviously, in a coverage-based job it is, but in many jobs it isn’t. It also depends on the visibility of the stain and its location. A visible stain on your chest is a problem, but a small stain on the hem of your shirt is less likely to be noticed.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      I ironically also read that again this morning and looked for an update. I could’ve sworn OP sent an update at some point.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Looks like the OP commented on the post. Search for the username “Will (the letter writer)”

      1. Observer*

        What I would really like is an update as to what that OP did and how it all worked out.

        1. Dragon*

          +1. Especially since Jane’s former job had to be done by someone with very specific professional qualifications.

  11. Annie*

    I know we shouldn’t be surprised when employees quit, and that we should be prepared for anyone to quit at any time. What does this look like in practice? It’s hard for me to balance being ready for anything with also building long-term relationships with employees. I know you have to put forth your full effort with each and every employee, and some of the time they will leave anyway. How to build real relationships while also being ready to have someone walk out tomorrow? Struggling to wrap my mind around the best way to balance this.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      It looks like having good solid documentation. What tasks are done, how frequently, by whom, and what resources are needed for them. Jane quits? You should already have a list of Jane tasks and how to do them. You’d want that anyway, what if someone falls ill and you need to cover for them. It makes it easier to bring someone into that role, you already have the list of tasks, turn that into the skills for the job ad. Use the documentation for training. What things need to happen weekly, monthly, quarterly, yearly, – whose usually involved.

      In terms of people, I maintain relationships with former bosses, mentees, coworkers especially after I leave a workplace. Don’t think of it as effort wasted. It’s building connections with people. Who knows when you might run into them again someday. With people under you, you’re teaching skills they are going to carry with them in all their future jobs. Be the manager that they use as a standard when talking about good bosses. And connecting with people enriches your day to day life, regardless of how long or where that friendship ends up.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “Building real relationships” in a work context is very different than it is for family, romance, friends, etc. So you might have misplaced expectations of what a relationship looks like. And you might want to find another word altogether so you don’t subconsciously get tripped up.

      Also, if you’re managing/mentoring them, sometimes the end goal of the relationship is the work equivalent of “if you love something, set it free”. It might not be the best thing for the business, but when you’ve nurtured an entry-level employee up to the point where they move on to a better position elsewhere, then you did your job vis-a-vis that relationship.

    3. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Instead of thinking about how your employees could quit at any time, think about how they could get hit by a bus at any time. I realize that sounds quite dark, but it sounds like you may be struggling building relationships because you are concerned they won’t mean anything once the person leaves. This isn’t true, and I think you can fix this with the bus scenario.

      So imagine an employee of yours gets into an accident. They’re in the hospital, they’re okay, but they’re not going to return to work anytime soon. Your first thought would be concern for their wellbeing, right? You want them to rest and do whatever they need to do, just like if they quit, you’d acknowledge that they are doing the best thing for themselves in that situation.

      Your next point of call would be to ensure their work gets taken care of. So hopefully you would have encouraged your employees to keep up-to-date notes on what they’re doing somewhere accessible. In the bus scenario, you wouldn’t be annoyed at them for not coming into work; you’d be glad they are taking care of themselves instead – the same sentiment as if they quit.

      Finally, you may eventually run into your employee again, either in professional circles or because your employee does resume their position with you. In the bus scenario, you’d be glad to see they are doing well and have grown professionally – exactly the same as if they had simply quit.

      Basically, treat an employee who is with you as a valuable member of your team (if they are, of course) and when they leave, remember that they are choosing the right option for them at that time.

      It may also be helpful to think of this from the employee’s side: they are giving 100% while they work for you and it would be unfair for you not to do the same.

      1. Happy Thurby*

        I say people are going to win the lottery and move to the Bahamas rather than get hit by a bus. It makes the same point but it’s a lot less dark.

        1. Less Bread More Taxes*

          Wow I can’t believe I didn’t think of that myself. That’s a much better scenario.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            I say “what if I’m hit by a bus en route to redeeming a winning lottery ticket?” because that’s how my luck works.

            I also refer to “winning a no-expenses paid trip to the asylum.”

        2. MigraineMonth*

          I was pointing out to a coworker last week that we needed to do some knowledge transfer from the most experienced person, because what if he won the lottery next week?

          He joked that would be my problem, since he is also in the office lottery pool.

        3. thelettermegan*

          I used to ask my coworkers to think about what they would do if I fell down a well. That stopped when one of them said “Megan, I’d go get a ladder.”

          So now I tell everyone to think about me winning the lottery and moving to Fiji. It’ll take more than a ladder to get me back in that hypothetical.

      2. Canonical23*

        I’ve had a binder at every job of documentation of what I do and how I do it and I always called it the “bus binder” for this very reason!

    4. Susan Calvin*

      All of what DCT said, especially the second part – if I may say so, you sound like you’re preemtively(!) taking this very personally! Say it with me: Changing jobs is a normal part of working, and not a betrayal or indictment of your previous manager.

    5. Qwerty*

      Maybe frame in your head as being ready for some less extreme examples. How hard is it to have someone gone for a week? What about if they need to take a month off (illness, trip of a lifetime, etc). If you wanted to promote somone tomorrow, how would you transition them out of their old duties. If you have anyone who has knowledge that would make losing them a hardship, then work on cross training.

      Being prepared for people to leave also helps encourage them to stay. It means being proactive about issues, monitoring workload, making sure you have good procedures for onboarding/training new hires. Employees tend to be happier and more likely to stay at jobs where they are wanted rather than where they are needed.

      Also try flipping the script in your head – how would you react if someone wanted to know why they should work hard or show any loyalty to the company knowing that they could be fired tomorrow? If you are in the US, your employees are likely at-will, so that’s a possibility. I’m guessing you would reassure your team member if they were concerned about that – maybe have a bit of a mock conversation with yourself.

    6. So they all cheap ass rolled over and one fell out*

      I am not a relationships person but is there some reason you can’t build a relationship with someone just because sooner or later you will no longer work with them?

      I always thought the “shouldn’t be surprised when employees quit” was about not letting any person become a single point of failure. In software engineering we (morbidly) call it the “bus factor,” the number of employees being hit by a hypothetical bus (or winning the lottery or quitting or even just going on a long vacation) before your business collapses. You really want to avoid it being “1” (there is one or more people who are so essential, the business would go out of business if they quit).

      1. My Useless 2 Cents*

        And making sure you are properly staffed at “normal” times. If “normal” is everyone working at maximum, even if everything is documented and everyone cross-trained, the people left have no capacity to take on the additional work until someone else is hired and trained. And things are going to be missed and fall thru the cracks that appear.

        1. So they all cheap ass rolled over and one fell out*

          That’s like a bus number of uber-1. Bus number = 1 means if you lose certain specific employees, you’re sunk. But if you can’t afford to lose any employees at all… well, you’re just asking for your business to fail (or to threaten and exploit whatever employees you have remaining.)

    7. Savvy*

      I think being prepared for people to quit is generally more about making sure you have processes documented and people are cross trained to handle important tasks if the usual designated person is not there. As far as building employee relationships, I think it’s fine to put forth the effort you normally like to do with people. The important thing is to develop the mindset that if they leave, it is not personal and it does not mean all that time building a relationship was a waste. You never know when you might reconnect with a former employee or coworker in another situation. I would say the main exception would be if your workplace has an insane amount of turnover, like people don’t even last a few weeks. Then I could understand if you don’t want to invest too much energy in bonding with others.

    8. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      In practice it means cross-training so that there isn’t a lapse in work because someone was the only one who knew the process etc. This also does help build business relationships — often if I know my coworkers what/how/when/why on their jobs, I might work better with them, or at least understand how it impacts my work or their challenges. The worst managers I’ve had do not understand what I do and how/when/why.

      When employees leave, they don’t evaporate; unless this is pretty entry-level or generic work, you might see or hear from or about them again, so try to keep in mind that they are now a part of a wider network.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Cross training so someone else can do the job while the employee is on vacation is also important for the employee’s morale. It allows then to take vacation and not have to work extra hard the week before or the week after to catch up on things that didn’t get done while they were on vacation.

        Some people’s boss’s tell them they can’t take days off or many days off because they’re too important, but that doesn’t make the employee happy. Others just know that no one else can pick up the slack so they “pay” for their vacation by having to catch up / work longer hours after.

    9. Angstrom*

      You are genuinely interested in helping them succeed and progress in their work. It’s good for them, it’s good for the company, it’s good for you.
      You are not invested in having them like like you. That’s nice if it happens but is not necessary.
      You work on trust, respect, and learning to work together. That is not the same as a personal relationship.

    10. Person from the Resume*

      There’s in your question that makes it sound more like personal relationships/friendships than a professional one. Like their leaving your team is something you take personally so you want to avoid getting too close so it will hurt less.

      These are professional relationships. I think you build them by being professional, compentent, and a generous and fair manager. They do their part by being professional, compentent, and hardworking.

      You shouldn’t be having perpetual turnover. If you are, you need to determine why there’s frequent turnover. You can expect people to leave, but you shouldn’t have to be prepared for employees to leave within their first year.

      But you build a professional relationship with people and when they leave (which they will) don’t take it personally. Before someone leaves they should write up information on the tasks they do (especially the tasks that they are the only person who does that task) and pass it on so it is easy for someone to take over for them. For someone working more projects that they have to handover, they should provide both a written status and verbal update in a meeting with whoever is taking over for them. That is what the two week notice is for. And if they handle the turnover profesionally, then you’re please that they ended the job on a good note.

    11. BellyButton*

      It depends on the type of roll. If it is task based then there should be documentation and cross training among task based employees on a team. For positions that are more leadership or management, there needs to be succession planning.
      Typically, you look at a team and evaluate each role to see if:
      1. is the position high, med, low impact.
      2. vacancy risk- high, med, low. This means is there a high risk that this person will leave- have they mentioned it, are they dissatisfied, is their job a highly sought after and marketable role, are they nearing retirement
      3. Identify critical knowledge, core competencies, identify institutional or customer knowledge and relationships
      4. Identify possible successors, someone who would be ready now in an emergency to step in, someone who would be ready in 1-2 years with development, and someone who would be ready in 3-5 years with development. Then identify the development they need and set a plan into place

      You can search for succession planning toolkits and free templates. Also, HRBPs, HR, and Talent Management within the company should help teams do this.

    12. snowyowl*

      Depending on the position, I’m a big fan of cross training. Obviously there are some positions where that’s not going to be possible.

      At my job we have a “busy” season and a “slow” season, near the end of the slow season I sit down with my four reports and write up a list of scenarios. What do we do if report 1 is out for a week, what about if report 2 is out for a month, what about if report 3 and 4 are both off for two weeks at the same time? And then we work through all our options so that at the end we have general guidance. Okay, if report 1 is out, then report 2 will take tasks a and b, we will put c and d off until they’re back, and report 3 and 4 will share e and f. This also helps me prioritize what can be cut in an emergency, what cannot be cut, and how to work around the things we need. The time frames help us also conceptualize how sustainable things are — one person taking on an extra task for a week is different then taking it on for a month. Also this helps identify gaps if there’s something where more training needs to take place before the busy season, and it helps them feel included and understand by thought process. It’s easier to do these things and less panic inducing if, in the middle of the busy time report 2 decides to quit when we already know what can be moved around, what can be dropped, and what needs to be prioritized — and the reports who are still there understand that help will be coming soon and why they’ve been assigned the tasks they have in the meantime.

      But yeah, anyone can quit at any time but sometimes it’s easier to think about “what if they were out with covid/sick/put into a coma and couldn’t help at all”. Make sure you know where their documentation is as well.

      1. Irish Teacher*

        Yup, the head of my department and I are the two full time learning support teachers in our school (lots of teachers have some learning support hours but we are the main staff of the department) so we’ve split a lot of the tasks between us and have very different interests and skills so they split fairly well, but we have a rule that we both have to have enough understanding of the other’s role to be able to fill in if the other is ill/leaves suddenly, etc. This is often a “I’ve sent you a copy of the instructions for x task just in case I’m ever out and you need to do it” or “the resources for y are in the top drawer of the cabinet if you ever need them” or “the deadline for z is such a date, so if I’m not here, will you ensure the forms get in the post by then?” sort of thing.

    13. thelettermegan*

      It might be helpful to think about job role documentation, cross-training, and onboarding as regular processes that should be visited whether or not it seems like someone is leaving. That kind of stuff is critical to basic office functioning and can really help in an emergency.

      + long term relationships with employees – you want to have the kind of relationship where you stay connected to the person in such a way that they feel more like an ‘alumni’ of the company rather than a breaker of hearts. They’re not going to quit AT you, but if they do, they should feel like they can return to the company if the right opportunity comes up.

    14. RagingADHD*

      Have you never had an authentic relationship with a neighbor who moved away? Or a classmate before you all graduate and go away to other schools or jobs?

    15. Not So NewReader*

      I think if you are used to building contingency plans this might be an in-road for you.

      I remember a boss having to figure out a plan of what to do if there was a gas leak in our work area. Same with fire. I could go on here, if you normalize the idea of building contingency plans this is just one more contingency plan.

      Oddly maybe briefly think about what you would do if you were leaving. What would be important for you to document? How would you delegate things until someone else took over. This would reinforce that you ALSO could leave and level the playing field a bit.

      Another source for answers you can consider is how do you handle this in your personal life? Good neighbors can move away. Favorite doc can retire. Small relatives become adults and go of to school, marry, buy houses on the opposite side of the country and so on. How do you handle these events?

      You can also review how you got each person you now have. How did you/the company find them? What worked, what did not work? Figure out what went right with each of these people so when you see it again as you hire someone, you will recognize it.

      My number one favorite solution is to just decide that their experience working for our company is going to be the best experience that I as a supervisor can muster up. My uncle supervised people for a department in a large and fairly well-known newspaper. He said that he felt people were with him for a time, then they would probably move on. Once he just accepted that as a fact of life, doors flew open in his mind. He got people training so they could do more tasks, he paid attention when they had personal concerns and needed PTO, he advocated for raises, etc. He also went as far as letting them know they were good workers and could find jobs else where.

      What happened next was amazing. They STAYED, in spite of knowing they could get more money elsewhere. People who feel trapped want to run away. People who feel supported are more apt to be careful about where they go next. It takes longer for them to find that new job, because they know they are giving up something.

      Here’s what jumped at me. We send people out into the world all the time and we just don’t think about it. Do we want to send them out there as happy and confident? Or do we want to send them out there as broken and destroyed? Our lives are filled with people who are just there for a while and then they move on- this goes for neighbors, repair people, docs, friends– the list is endless. When a person is in our lives for a while, personally or professionally, we have a chance to send out a ripple. What do we want that ripple to look like? We have a chance to impact their thoughts and experiences in positive ways. Then they can move on and do the same for others. This is actually a privilege. We can chose to live up to the responsibility that comes with that privilege.

      So I simply chose to be fair and do right by people for the time they are with the company. Some went on to get jobs at a higher level than what I had. I heard an old saying one time and it’s been helpful to me. If a teacher has done a good job, the student excels beyond what the teacher learned/knew. That is the ultimate achievement for a teacher.

      1. 10/10*

        You may not see my message at this point in the weekend, but I needed to say that your points here are so very true and were beautiful to see shared for us all to be reminded of. <3

  12. Elle*

    A few months ago we sent out an employee satisfaction survey. One of the questions had staff rank what perks they would like the company to provide. We listed tuition reimbursement, increased days off, more holidays, etc. Putting together the data we were shocked to see swag listed as one of the top things staff wanted. Out of all the things we could offer staff wanted crap with our logo on it? Is it because they think we can’t come through with the other perks? Any other ideas of why this is?

    1. Sloanicota*

      At least swag is kind of equitable – it’s hard to identify perks that work for everybody, particularly if you’re trying to pick just one (gym reimbursement OR student load repayment, pets in the office OR WFH flexibility).

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Yeah, but if you’re ranking what you would like, wouldn’t you focus on that? I assume the question was phrased clearly about that.

        2. Raboot*

          Yeah but if one person wants gym reimbursement and swag and one wants tuition reimbursement and swag and one wants care dot com membership and swag, then swag bubbles to the top as a lowest common denominator.

          The fact that it beats out time off is odder, but I suppose I guess it really depends on what it means for their overall PTO balances and pay stubs and, importantly, workload.

      2. Ama*

        Yes, I suspect the issue here is that maybe 80-90% of people put swag on their list and then split other things. So it isn’t that it is the MOST popular but it is the one almost everyone ranked.

        One thing I will note is that people that feel overworked might not select more PTO/holidays because they may already feel like they don’t have enough time to get work done/use their PTO as it is. So if you were expecting that to rank higher and it didn’t, you might want to make some different inquiries.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      Is there anything particularly desirable about your logo? Otherwise, I’m mystified.

    3. Meep*

      Psychologically? There isn’t someone else getting more PTO or a raise than you. Everyone gets the same thing. It also makes you feel like they value your contribution to the company and that the company is literally giving you something with their logo on it. It says “This company wouldn’t be successful without you.” It has the same impact as stocking snacks at the office.

      From a managerial standpoint, it is oodles cheaper than a raise. You should give them a raise, but give them swag dang it.

      (I just purchased my staff Yeti mugs with our logo’s on it, fyi.)

      1. Elle*

        The thing is that we already stuff with our logo on it-I have t shirts and a water bottle. People want more stuff? And we can’t spend a lot of money on nice stuff. We don’t have that kind of budget.

        1. Ashley*

          Maybe people picked swag because they already realized budgets were tight and that might be the most likely to get something.
          Also, you don’t make employees wear swag everyday or for events do you? If you do that could be part of the response.

        2. Given Name*

          If you can’t pay for the swag, you can’t pay for the other options either. Swag is the cheapest and easiest, and you can’t make that work? I’d assume they know you wouldn’t be able to follow through on any of it so really didn’t care. Why did you ask if you couldn’t afford it anyway?

    5. Juror No. 7*

      People love free stuff. But also, sometimes having company branded merch can foster a sense of community.
      (Honestly, I’m occasionally a little jealous of my partner- His company sends out high quality merch (Patagonia backpacks, and the like) once a year or so, and t-shirts/seasonal items every six months or so. My company sent a welcome packet (cloth bag, nice note book, pen) and will occasionally send out other merch about every 1-2 years.)

      1. Be Gneiss*

        My first day at my new job, I showed up to a tote bag full of swag. Mugs and a Helly Hansen coat and backpack and water bottle and coffee cup and polo shirts…. I was kinda thrilled, tbh.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        The temp job I worked recently had EXCELLENT swag; I know because I had to inventory it. They had some super nice duffel bags. I didn’t ask, but damn, I wanted one.

    6. Riot Grrrl*

      Not sure how your survey was structured, but is it possible that it was everyone’s second choice, but no one’s first choice, or something similar? Statistically weird things can happen if everyone feels strongly about Choice A or Choice B, but that ends up splitting the electorate, so everyone ends up with Choice C.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        I prefer ranked choice voting, but no voting system with more than 2 choices always works.

    7. Decidedly Me*

      Swag may feel doable, while the others they want, but don’t think they’ll actually get.

    8. snoopythedog*

      How was the analysis of the data done? If you ranked things (1-10, for example), you should look at what % of each item fell in each rank. If swag was not in the top 3 but was consistently rated #5, meanwhile the other options were ranked either 1 or 10, reducing their cumulative score to that below swag….swag isn’t *really* your top option. Rather, your data are split and people want a few different things. Offering them swag when it was consistently rated moderately won’t make many people happy.

      But if swag was consistently ranked 2 or 3 for options…then yes, the people want swag. My work (small ass team) did some branded yeti thermos mugs and large coffee cups and all 6 employees were/are super pumped about it. For our little work from home team, it filled a need and looks pretty sweet in meetings with clients

    9. curly sue*

      Is there a lack of trust regarding the perks themselves? I can see people being worried about tuition reimbursement coming with a 5-year payback clause, or holiday scheduling coming with a catch about seniority, etc. But t-shirts and ball caps can’t be taken back or deliberately reinterpreted.

      The only other thing that comes to mind is that your company is in a collector-adjacent industry and folks think they can sell logo-ed merch on ebay?

    10. Person from the Resume*

      Wow! I’m shocked as well. I would be putting more holidays and more PTO at the top.

      OTOH I do value education, but I already have a masters degree so I wouldn’t be putting tuition reimbursement on there now. I did use tuition reimbursement 2 times in the past so that’s a perk that just isn’t relevent to me now. so some of the perks might just not be useful to everyone at this point in their lives/careers.

      I don’t understand how more holidays and more PTO didn’t beat out swag. There’s no way that’s less valuable to every employee than swag.

      1. Chris too*

        It depends on three things – the quality of the swag, how proud you are of where you work, and whether you already feel ok about the other possible things on the list.

        I work for a government thing – so work/life balance is good, the swag quality is good, and we’re really proud of what we do. Give us our swag!

    11. my 8th name*

      I’m not terribly surprised by this. Swag is probably the one thing they can guarantee they’ll actually use. Tuition reimbursement requires a commitment to go back for higher education, which not everyone is interested in. Even extra PTO days may not have a strong appeal for people who never run out of PTO days.

      1. JustaTech*

        There’s also the psychological factor of a thing you can touch. For many, many years my company/department didn’t do swag (I got nothing when I started), so when we did start with water bottles and lunch bags it felt like a*huge* deal.
        We even commented on it “why are we so excited about a water bottle?” but that’s how we reacted. (The funny thing is that hardly anyone uses their work swag *at* work because then we’d all have the same mug or water bottle or lunch bag and it’s confusing.)

        It’s also something that everyone can get (even if everyone won’t use it), unlike tuition reimbursement or a gym credit. And it does seem (to the non-budget folks) like it’s a lot more do-able than the big things like more holidays or more PTO. I think it’s kind of like providing better coffee or snacks, it can have a disproportionate impact on morale.

    12. Kez*

      I know that at a previous workplace, there was a lot of time being put into “brainstorming” and trying to get an idea of what retention perks staff would respond well to, and it tended to go in circles without any tangible benefit for the people doing the most stressful work. I wonder if this is something similar?

      Like, in that job, people had plenty of time off available as part of the standard employment package. BUT their positions were in childcare and the organization didn’t have enough adequately trained substitutes. So to take a day off, you had to accept that your students would be getting sub-par care and your direct co-workers would have a harder day trying to cover for you, sometimes missing lunch or staying long hours to ensure things got done. This led to lots of dysfunction because HR/management thought the issue of “time off” was resolved, while the staff on the ground felt that they’d been promised a perk that was then yanked out from under them when it came time to actually use it.

      I definitely think some of the points people made below, about swag being a generic enough item that it may have gotten more “middle of the pack” responses, artificially inflating its importance, are worth investigating. But if you’re having trouble with employee satisfaction and you were asking about perks, maybe consider if part of the issue is inadequate systems/staffing which would allow employees to feel free to actually use those perks.

    13. Observer*

      Do you have the choices ranked? Because if not, what people are saying about swag bubbling up because the other things are more divided is very much on target.

      I would look at what comes in below swag. But also, if you can, I would look at which things are the ONLY thing that someone chose and specifically what other things got chosen along with swag.

    14. Canonical23*

      A lot of people like swag if it’s nice and related to the job. I’m always jealous of a friend whose company gives all employees nice jackets and fancy backpacks and branded laptop docks. I would interpret the result as people wanting nice quality “fun” items from work that could be helpful *at* work. (i.e. people ranking “swag” high are not looking for cheap sunglasses and branded pencils.)

      Like I definitely get that it’s a confusing result because you would think most people would want higher pay or tuition reimbursement or extra vacation time. But I think there’s a way to implement “swag” in a way that employees actually get something out of it that isn’t cheap crap.

    15. Annie*

      I LOVE swag. Swag is a metaphor for status at the company. I worked for one company that gave people fleece jackets at one point and forever after, there was a component of seniority that was “whether you were there when they gave out jackets.” The employees who had them were very pleased and the employees who didn’t would talk about when they would next give out jackets. The next fleece jacket they gave out was a different design so it started a new layer of swag status. I loved it. I would vote for swag.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        OldExjob used to give out really nice burgundy jackets at five years of service. By the time I got to five years, they’d replaced those with horrible ugly cheap grey windbreakers. :(

        I ditched it when I moved. I’d intended to use it for working in the yard on brisk days, but every time I looked at it, it made me feel bad, so it was still in good shape. Into the donation pile it went.

    16. Be kind, rewind*

      Do you already have generous PTO and/or people don’t feel like they can use it?

    17. Cthulhu's Librarian*

      Could you have come through on the other perks? Because… well, swag and tuition reimbursement or more days off are on VASTLY different levels of expenditure from the company. If I saw the two being offered on a “rank your choice” list, I would assume that swag was included because that was really the only thing the company honestly wanted to lay out the funds for, and that tuition reimbursement would never be available to anyone who didn’t have “executive” somewhere in their title (or at least family tree).

      So, yeah… if folks have reason to believe that you couldn’t have come through on the big offers, or that you would have only come through for a certain subset of employees… choosing swag makes a certain level of sense.

      Also… was the survey anonymous, and do your staff trust your management not to try and unmask certain responses? Because some places I’ve worked, the person who marked tuition reimbursement was considered out of their gourd, and management started trying to unmask them by the content of their comments, to see who “was a flight risk” (theory being they wanted to get educated and move on to better positions). Found that humorous, since they could have just pulled the survey response device data and known for sure who it was, instead of floundering around with “well, Jonny and Jane mentioned X, but only Spike was supposed to know about Y…” conversations.

    18. Chauncy Gardener*

      Oh wow. I personally hate swag and never ever take it, but in most of my companies everyone just adores it!
      I’d rather have a gift card for the same $ amount or better, more holidays.

      1. Elle*

        To answer some questions- I was looking at the total number of people who answered swag one or two. It was a lot. We do have good pto and holidays. Probably the most I’ve ever had. Luckily management is working on the perks that didn’t rank as highly as swag.

        1. linger*

          If PTO and holidays are already well above industry standard, and employees believe those can’t realistically go higher, that might also help explain why “swag” is a popular choice for further improvements.
          The algorithm used for comparing popularity of ranked choices can materially affect the results. Counting the total number of 1st rankings (as you seem to have done) can be fairly robust, though incomplete (depending on how many items each individual ranked). Some kind of decreasing-weight algorithm (e.g. 1st-rankings = 1 point, 2nd-rankings = 1/2 point, 3rd-rankings = 1/3 point and so on, then add the points) can also work, but makes some arbitrary assumptions about strength of preference. Best of all would be not to require all respondents to rank every listed item — instead using e.g. a point-allocation task, wherein each respondent is given 10 points to assign as they see fit to express not only the rank order but also the strength of their preference; you’d then count the total points for each item.

        2. Irish Teacher*

          Is it expected that everybody will take all their PTO or is it a ceiling kind of thing? If it’s the latter, people might question if they will actually get to use it. Would extra PTO mean everybody takes that number of extra days off each year or is it more a case that they’d have them to take in case they got ill, etc?

        3. linger*

          The exact wording of the question matters too. Given the company’s (known) budget constraints, you might get very different ranking answers depending on whether you’re asking about preferences for things being increased, or preferences for existing things not being reduced, and also depending on whether the existing levels of each thing are perceived as high or low. Still, you should be in a good position to interpret the ranking answers you got if you’ve already asked about employees’ satisfaction levels with the status quo for each of these items.

  13. Perceived Conflict of Interest?*

    What is a reasonable approach for a part time employee who also freelances to handle conflicts of interest or possible perception thereof? Is it the standard for the PT job to determine what is a “perceived” COI? I do not have a noncompete and would not continue long term at this PT job if I had to get their sign-off before accepting freelance contracts.

    1. Savvy*

      Many employers have policies about outside employment, so see if your employee handbook has a rule about it and spells out what has to be disclosed and approved. This would be handled differently depending on your industry. If your PT job is doing the same work as your freelance job, could you propose that your PT job be reclassified into an independent contractor role instead? Then you could still work for them, but they would not have any say on your other contracts.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yes, they would have exactly as much say, because a client can fire a freelancer for a perceived COI just as fast as a regular employer can.

    2. Riot Grrrl*

      I’m not a lawyer, but a few questions or thoughts:
      1. Are you doing work for the same clients? The employer has a vested interest in not creating confusion in the mind of the customer. At my job, we cannot do the same job for a client on a freelance basis that is substantially similar to the job we do for them on behalf of the business. Not only does this create competition, the business has no control of what you do as a freelancer, so anything you do–mistakes, overcharging, etc–can “rub off” onto the business.
      2. I would think that if you are supplying an unrelated service for an unrelated client, there should be no conflict. And indeed, I wouldn’t even think it would be necessary to disclose that.
      3. If your freelance work is substantially the same as your PT job, but for different clients, then I do think a discussion is warranted for everyone’s protection. Depending on the relative size of the business, size of the market, size of the jobs, etc. it may protect you from having the business horn in on your customers. At best, the business may be able to refer you to jobs that are too small for them to take on, etc. Again, it all depends on the details.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Find out what your employer thinks is a conflict of interest. Seriously. It does not matter what we think, it only matters what the employer thinks. They are the ones signing your paycheck.

      I am saying this because I have a job where WIERD, I mean REALLY WIERD stuff works into a COI. Check with your employer this is nothing you want to guess at and mess up.

    4. RagingADHD*

      You have no obligation to proactively request approval if nobody has told you otherwise.

      However, if your PT gig or your freelance client express that they perceive a COI, the standard is that the job/gig you need more sets the terms of what they consider a COI. It doesn’t have to be fair or reasonable, and you don’t have to agree with their assessment. Freelancing is not a protected class or activity, and your job can fire you for it anytime they want. Freelance clients have no obligation to hire you if they think your job is problematic.

      If you need them more than they need you, then you don’t really have any means of dictating terms. Your recourse is to quit if you don’t like their terms.

      That is the normal way that business works in an “at-will” environment.

  14. H*

    Thank you to my union! A few weeks ago there was a fire drill at my office during one of the days many of us have to be at the office (telework is allowed 4 days a week luckily). People who work on my same floor got COVID because masking is optional (I was masking because of having to share crowded stairs with people)…I was not made aware until a virtual meeting a week later that people got COVID and during this virtual meeting (last week) the county our office is in was at 11% COVID+/high COVID-19 Community level. I called the union last week as our building guidance still said community level was medium so masking was not required or optional. They said to give it a few days but call back if guidance did not change for the building and the rate was still high. As of yesterday, they still hadn’t changed it and a director even said on a virtual meeting that the building had no plans to change it. Called union again and today received a building wide email that community level for the building is considered high and masking is now REQUIRED again starting Monday. Why are higher ups trying to bypass the MOU with the collective bargaining unit and think they can get away with it and get us all infected? Anyway, appreciate the union who definitely escalated this matter.

  15. noturcatsitter*

    I’m looking for help wording my approach to a non-work situation with a coworker.

    Months ago, I asked my coworker to feed my cats during my upcoming vacation. I’ve fed his cats several times when he was away, and we live close together. He agreed, but then he backed out of two of the days with barely a week to go before the vacation over a scheduling conflict that he must’ve known about a while back. This is extremely frustrating to me (partly because he does stuff like this at work, too).

    Since I can’t rely on him to feed my cats, I’m no longer willing to feed his. Any help with phrasing would be appreciated. Or should I let it drop? The last two times he’s gone away (aka the two times he’s gone away since the first time I asked him to reciprocate the cat feeding), he’s had someone else cat sit. So maybe he’s figured out that he screwed up?

    A. Hey, our preferred methods of scheduling seem to be pretty incompatible. I want to make sure well in advance that my cats will be covered before I go on vacation. I also don’t enjoy being asked on short notice to feed someone else’s cats for a non-emergency. Since it seems to be a great hardship for you to plan things so far in advance, going forward, please don’t ask me to feed your cats.

    B. When I agreed to feed your cats, it was with the hope that you would feed mine when I needed it. However, you don’t seem to have much availability for that, so going forward I’m afraid I’ll have to ask you to take me off your list of potential cat sitters.

    1. Sloanicota*

      if it were me, I’d just see if he ever asks again, and decline at that point. He may be fully aware he burned the bridge by bailing on you. Since it’s a favor I’m not sure it’s worth bringing up.

      1. noturcatsitter*

        This seems to be the consensus, so I’ll go with this and tell myself it’s not my circus the next time he asks me the day before his trip if I’ll feed his cats. Thanks!

        1. Triplestep*

          “No sorry, that won’t be possible”. It’s a useful phrase when you don’t want to give reasons. Just follow it with silence, and if he pushes back, the response is “It just won’t be possible.”

          1. Elizabeth West*

            This happened to me with a longtime friend whose dogs I took care of on occasion. She hardly ever called me unless she wanted me to pupsit and I felt like the relationship was too one-sided. So the next time she asked, I just told her I was busy that weekend. She didn’t ask me again.

            Oddly enough, when I left town for good, she was the ONLY person who wanted to meet up.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I wouldn’t say anything unless he asks you again, at which point you can say “sorry, it’s not going to work out for me anymore” – I don’t think you have to be too aggressive about it, even though I am sure it’s annoying.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      If he has been having someone else feed his cats the last two times you were away, he might have known he messed up by pulling out last minute (although those things happen!). I think because he is your coworker and you have to maintain a certain level of relationship with him, I wouldn’t confront him about it. If he asks again I would just say that it doesn’t work for you. He will probably get the hint.

    4. Lady_Lessa*

      Could you find a professional cat sitter (I have one and she drops by daily for about 30 minutes)? That way, you can say what you are doing (and if pleased and if they are accepting new clients) pass the info on.

      FYI, I’ve only met mine once in about 15 years. She has a key, and I just call when I need her.

      1. noturcatsitter*

        That’s what I’ve done in the past, but unfortunately I live in a very small town now. I don’t know of any pet sitting pros and they’d be hard to find if they exist. I’m asking for my sister’s pet sitter’s contact info (her husband’s coworker) to see if she’ll take money.

        1. Random Bystander*

          Have you tried the petsitter website? (dot com, but I don’t want the link to snag things up)

    5. LadyAmalthea*

      As a cat owner who used to rely on a friend for occasional cat sitting, I’d keep it simpler:

      “My fried recommended a great professional cat sitter and her cats love him. If I like him, I’ll give you his contact information.”

    6. PollyQ*

      It sounds like he’s looking elsewhere for cat sitting already, but if it does come up, I’d go with the least confrontational option, given that you have to work with him.

      C. “Sorry, I’m too busy right now, I won’t be able to cat sit for you.”

      You might have to use this excuse more than once, but I doubt you’ll have to use it more than 3 times.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, and if he has any self-awareness at all, he’ll quickly realize that he burned the bridge when he bailed out of cat sitting at short notice.

    7. Asenath*

      I don’t think you need to do anything pre-emptively – wait to see if he asks you again. Then just say that you can’t manage it. If he wanta an explanation, say that the scheduling doesn’t work for you. Don’t get into any discussion or details – you probably won’t need to; most people will accept an excuse like scheduling issues.

    8. Cocafonix*

      A and B way too complicated. Drop it. If asked, “Sorry, I’m not available. Have a great vacation!”

    9. Dark Macadamia*

      Option A sounds pretty extreme. Don’t say that to someone you still need to be pleasant and professional with! I’d just vaguely decline if he asks again (“sorry, I won’t be able to do it that day”) and don’t explain unless he specifically insists on knowing why (“I just don’t feel like this arrangement works for us anymore/it was frustrating when you bailed last time and I think it’s best we both find other options from now on”)

    10. Don’t put metal in the science oven*

      As much as you want to tell them off with A or B, there is almost always more capital in being the less dramatic one.

    11. Velociraptor Attack*

      Both of these options feel really aggressive, especially toward a coworker. I agree with the other comments thus far, no need to bring it up, stop asking him, politely decline if he asks you again, and that will likely be the end of it.

    12. LilPinkSock*

      Neither. Those are both unnecessarily aggressive responses. If the coworker asks again, you could say something simple and polite like “I’m sorry, I can’t”. But it sounds like he’s already expanded his bench of cat-sitters, so it may never come up again—and that’s just fine.

    13. Hiring Mgr*

      I would let it drop. If he does ask you again, you can just decide at that point what you want to do (if it’s an emergency or something you might change your mind). No reason to bring it up now though..

    14. lost academic*

      This seems strangely transactional and oddly punitive. I agree that when two people who have cats who live quite close have a single petsitting event that the assumption for everyone is that the favor will be returned when possible, but it’s important to emphasize “when possible”. I also see a LOT of assumptions here, regardless of the work angle: he backed out with “barely a week” (I would argue that’s a reasonable amount of notice) over a scheduling conflict he “must have known about” – that’s not really for you to judge especially since it sounds like this is the first situation with this on his end.

      I’m not saying you should ask him to feed your cats again and it sounds like you won’t, but you also sound like you want to find a way to punish him or otherwise inflict some emotional backlash for what to an outside observer sounds like a fairly normal conflict that you got notice about. Your language in both options is a little over the top and seems intentionally so. If you don’t want to feed his cats for any reason, just say “Sorry, I can’t” if asked. Don’t go borrowing trouble or conflict ESPECIALLY because this is a coworker and there are likely unintended consequences to that.

      Just say you can’t feed his cats if asked and don’t ask him again. And don’t’ say any of the other stuff at all. Including to other coworkers, it’s going to get back to him.

    15. Not So NewReader*

      I would not say anything until he asks specifically for you to sit his cats.

      Then I’d say something to the effect of “I was looking for someone who I could have an on-going trade agreement with. I would watch their cats and they would watch mine. I am looking at other options right now. So I can’t sit for your cats, as I have other commitments.”

      Or just simply say, “No, I can’t do it.”

      I think he will just faze out this part of your interactions with him. I think you can say nothing and build a different plan.

    16. RagingADHD*

      Nope, don’t say that. Just don’t agree to feed his cats.

      If he acts entitled or questions why not, that’s the time to tell him off for being a flake.

      Also, there is absolutely no need to go off to this extent. You’re just venting your spleen. If he acts like he doesn’t understand why, “Because you flaked out and put me in a bind, so I don’t want to trade favors anymore,” is plenty clear.

  16. Flowers*

    Second question haha –

    Unspoken rules for using an office kitchen?

    I know fish and microwave popcorn is a huge no no.

    Earlier this week I had brought in the ingredients to make myself a sandwich and store in the fridge (cold cuts, cheese, mayo). 2 people commented “wow that looks good!”. I felt like I had to mention that I was sick of paying $20 through doordash. But was that too much? It took maybe 5 minutes tops to assemble?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I mean, that’s just general lunch chit-chat, your answer was fine, no need to overthink it.

      The only things I would say are don’t store a month’s worth of food in the fridge (like, leaving just the mayo would probably be fine) and be sure to take stuff home at the end of the day or week.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      As long as you don’t take up more than your share of space, you’re fine.

      People often experience lunch envy. Nbd

    3. Murphy*

      Maybe they just felt like they needed to acknowledge you in the moment while you were making a sandwich and didn’t know what to say? I wouldn’t bat an eye at someone doing that. Makes a lot of sense to me!

      I also did this once for a week when I lost power at home but not at work and I didn’t want to buy lunch every day. I don’t remember getting any comments about it.

    4. londonedit*

      I think they were probably just trying to make conversation. Pre-made sandwiches are an extremely common sight in UK supermarkets and most people’s go-to lunch (most supermarkets do a ‘meal deal’ that includes a sandwich, drink and snack for say £3.50 so a lot of people go for those) so I can imagine people here would say ‘wow’ if they saw a colleague making their own sandwich from scratch rather than bringing it in/buying one from the local Tesco, but I don’t think it’s a big deal.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I love this about UK supermarkets. It makes eating on the cheap in London so much easier. And the sandwiches are mostly pretty good.

        I agree with the conversation angle. It’s very common to open with a remark about lunch when you’re in the lunchroom.

        1. Westsidestory*

          “Egg and Cress” sustained me through many a conference in London. UK supermarkets are so much fun. Thanks for the memories!

        2. RagingADHD*

          Every US supermarket I’ve been to in like, 15 years has this. Do you live in an area without any large chains like Kroger or Publix?

          1. LK03*

            The difference (for me at least) is that the UK ones actually taste good. :)

            I would also get food from a Japanese 7-11 in a heartbeat. US ones, not so much…

          2. ScruffyInternHerder*

            FWIW, there is no way I’m eating anything that isn’t wrapped at another location prior to arriving at my local Kroger. Straight nasty. (If we’re tracking demographics here, I live in a suburb of some wealth, so I’m really baffled as to this store itself and don’t often shop there.)

            No Publix here. Meijer, can’t recall whether they do sandwiches like this or not….

        3. Middle School Teacher*

          Oh, I didn’t know you had so much experience in London! How fun. But this is also very common in Canada and the US too.

      2. Flowers*

        Oh yes – they were both very nice and friendly about it!

        This was purely my own nerves haha.

        I just started this job and have had a million “shoot I should ask here!” moments but the day rolls around and I just forget haha.

      3. Flowers*

        There’s a huge grocery store near me that does that as well, and they have a lot of heat-up meals. A little bit pricier than just grocery shopping and cooking at home, but not as pricey as what you’d get from a restaurant/deli during lunch time, so seems like a good deal I think? I shall try them one day. I’m really picky about sandwiches though so I either make my own or get takeout fresh but the latter gets super expensive :/

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      They’re just thinking you’re smart.

      As long as your fixings don’t take up unreasonable space in the shared fridge, this is a super smart way to deal with lunch. I’d just pack an ordinary lunch bag with my fixings for the week, keep a bag of bread on a shelf, and have at it.

      1. Ama*

        Yes, this. I know I should take my lunch to work more when I’m in office (the lunch places in that neighborhood are expensive), but I can never seem to get my act together except in the rare instances where we have leftovers that either don’t need warming or can be easily warmed in the work microwave. If I saw a colleague making their lunch and commented it would be because I admired their foresight in bringing in actual sandwich making materials.

    6. Delta Delta*

      I think that was a total throwaway comment and your answer could be similarly breezy. “Oh yeah, I love a good turkey sandwich!” or something. This sort of just feels like chitchat.

    7. Asenath*

      I wouldn’t give it a second thought. Both assembling a quick lunch and saying other people’s food looks good are lunchroom commonplaces.

    8. EMP*

      people are just making small talk. Several people in my office leave sandwich stuff in the lunch fridge and it’s a smart thing to do! Say “thanks” and enjoy your sandwich :)

    9. reheater*

      Don’t worry about it. I always have reheatable leftovers and get a lot of “that looks good” comments too. Because it does look good, and it is. Done this my entire career and never a bad effect from it. Sometimes it sparks a conversation “what is it?” – “X” – “oh I’ve never had any of that, what’s the recepy?” Etc.
      Note: I’m in western Europe

    10. lost academic*

      I do the math on the number of people in the office and the total space in the fridge and don’t take up more than my equal amount. That’s regardless of who is actually using it and how often because they might because I don’t want my usage to dissuade them from using a common resource and you never know when they’ll need it. My old office, so many people just stuck their insulated lunchboxes in there and that took up a lot of space but it was manageable even then. We did mention at a meeting at one point that it was getting to be a lot and people needed to consider unpacking if it got worse.

    11. Bernice Clifton*

      I think you’re fine as long as you’re not taking up too much fridge space or doing something like spreading all the ingredients on a small countertop in front of the microwave and then walking away to chat with someone for 10 minutes. :)

    12. Chris too*

      Consider whether you’re in an environment where everybody can take their lunch when it’s convenient, or whether some people *must* take their half hour lunch at a strict time for operational reasons. If it’s the latter and there are more than two or three people “stuck” like this, please don’t bring in frozen food that needs a long time in the microwave, and defrost it at the same time that the people with no time flexibility need the microwave. It’s really frustrating when you wind up with only 10 minutes to eat because of this.

      1. Flowers*

        That’s a good angle to consider – I didn’t think of that but it doesn’t really apply to me specifically I think. People seem to leave or eat at their desks whenever they want. I was doing this on a day when majority of staff was working remotely, so as not to take up too much space/time. I have noticed no one really sits at the tables in groups which is interesting to me (not bad, but just interesting!)

        But yea that is a really good point, thank you for sharing!

    13. dejaju*

      I’m with most posters on the bringing a week’s worth of lunch materials–it all depends on how much space you’re taking up. If what you’re leaving in the fridge is no larger than a normal lunch bag, I think it’s fine. However, it would be inconsiderate to take up an entire shelf for the week if space is at a premium.

      Other unspoken rules:
      1. Unless you’ve been explicitly told that something is communal, it probably isn’t. Don’t help yourself to someone else’s creamer, liquid stevia, gourmet hot sauce, or cream cheese.
      2. I’d probably not microwave other strongly-scented foods (for instance really garlicky things, cruciferous vegetables, and heavily-spiced foods).
      3. Related to the above: if you’re bringing something that has a strong smell, be sure that it’s packed in a container that is well-sealed. Ditto if you’re bringing something that is liquidy/saucy/juicy.
      4. Mentioned above but worth repeating: don’t monopolize appliances/counter spaces, particularly if they’re at a premium and/or needed by people who don’t have flexibility in their break times.
      5. Clean up after yourself. This includes not leaving dirty dishes in the sink, food that came off the dishes that you washed in the sink, or spills on the counter.

      2. ScruffyInternHerder*

        Man, I am transcribing 1-5 and attaching a sign in the kitchen on the refrigerator.

        Public declaration of “knock it off” to one specific person and we all know it.

        And I think number five needs a separate written sign over the sink…”Your Mom does not work here, clean up after yourself. Yes, this includes the dirty dishes you left in the sink, the food you didn’t wash down the disposal, the spills you left on the counter. Clean up after yourself or work from home.”

    15. RagingADHD*

      I guess I need some clarification on your question

      What did you think they meant, that would make you feel like you needed to justify your sandwich, or that there might be a rule about it?

      Did they do something weird with their face or voice? I’m just having trouble finding any significance at all to read into that kind of comment.

      What subtext did you take from it?

  17. Amber Rose*

    Two weeks ago I got Covid and took Thursday/Friday off and slept for four straight days.
    Last week I “worked from home” while eating mostly flu tablets and quietly wishing to crawl into a hole.
    This week I’m back in the office and I’m falling apart.

    I tested negative finally after 11 days, but I’m still symptomatic. Horrible cough, no appetite, can’t sleep, can’t think. I need to do things and forget about them three seconds later. In one brain cell and out my ears apparently, because I can’t hold onto a thought. I’ve been late most days because I’m so tired in the mornings I worry my legs won’t hold me up.

    People keep asking how I’m feeling or telling me to feel better and I just want to cry all day because I’m struggling so hard. My work is suffering like whoa. You wouldn’t believe how much I just haven’t done and feel increasingly bad about. But I sound like a whiner because everyone else who had it was sick for two or three days and then got better, and I’m like 16 days out and the best I can say is that my fever is gone and my sinuses don’t hurt.

    I don’t know what to do.

    1. DarthVelma*

      If you are so tired you worry your legs won’t hold you up you are probably not safe to drive. Is there some reason you can’t still be working from home?

      1. Amber Rose*

        My job is tricky to do effectively from home long term. It’s not the worst for a few days, but it requires my coworkers to step up and do some of the work I’d normally do myself, and it’s harder for me to follow up.

    2. Irish Teacher*

      Can you take more time off? It sounds like you are not well enough to be back at work yet and need some more time at home. I realise this may or may not be feasible, depending on your sick leave, etc.

      1. Irish Teacher*

        And everybody’s situation is different. The fact that some other people only needed a couple of days off doesn’t mean you don’t need more. I have heard of people being off work for six months or more. I have also met people who were completely asymptomatic. Being more severely affected than other people doesn’t make you a “whiner.” It just means you were unlucky.

        1. quill*

          Yeah, imagine it this way: you and the other covid patients in your office all, say, fell off the same skateboard. Some people have bruises. Other people have scrapes. There might be a sprain in the mix, but you, Amber Rose, broke something. Of COURSE you’re going to need more recovery time, the injury is more severe! It’s just harder to conceptualize a disease as having different outcomes for different people than it is to think of an accident having different outcomes.

    3. ThatGirl*

      Oh my goodness, if you’re still sick, you’re still sick — you need to be resting, not trying to force yourself to work.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        Amen to ThatGirl! Covid notoriously hits different people differently. I have many friends who’ve had it — two had weeks of fatigue and symptoms (like you), some were like a flu, some asymptomatic, and two had very serious cases (everyone is fine now). The main thing is that if you’re sick you’re sick. It isn’t a personal failing.

    5. PollyQ*

      First, I’m really sorry you’re still feeling so awful! Second, NOT everyone else who had it was sick for only 2-3 days. Many people, y’know, died, or were hospitalized, or had a case as bad as yours. COVID is a serious illness, and you are not a whiner because you still have symptoms! Third, even though my COVID was milder than yours, I went through a period in my 20’s where I’d get a cold or a flu, which would then turn into something bacterial, and I missed a bunch of work days in a row, multiple times, because of it. People get sick! It happens! And you definitely still sound like you’re sick enough to be taking time off, or at the very least “working” from home.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Sorry, that was poorly worded. I meant everyone I work with. Aside from me, none of my coworkers have had more than a mild case of it. So they keep talking about how they felt better in a few days and I’m here three weeks later feeling like crap and not sure what to say.

        1. PollyQ*

          You say, “Damn, I’m jealous of you all. I’m here 3 weeks later, and I still feel like crap!” If your colleagues are minimally reasonable people who’ve paid any attention at all over the past 2.5 years, they’ll know that not everyone has as mild a case as they did. And if they’re not reasonable and knowledgable, then **** ’em.

          1. Person from the Resume*

            Perfect response. If they’re implying you’re slacking or milking it, just say something like this.

            “Wow, you we’re lucky because it’s brought me to my knees for weeks.”

            Also stop working. Work only from home and a only a few hours a day IF you feel up to it. Make your coworkers do the inperson work while YOU ARE OUT FEELING VERY SICK.

            * see above thread about how crosstraining before someone quits is important and not for just when they quit.

    6. Asenath*

      See your doctor about getting more sick leave so that you can rest. I’m no doctor, but I know that resting is important in recovery. I suspect your situation isn’t that unusual. My case (thanks to vaccinations) wasn’t that severe; the worse symptoms were over in a few days and the lingering ones in a week – except for that nasty persistent cough that must have lasted a month. And I had all the time I wanted to rest after I was cleared to re-join the rest of the world.

    7. londonedit*

      Definitely take some more time off. Rest is the most important thing with Covid! I feel like I had a mild case and I count myself lucky because I didn’t have a cough/lung trouble with it, and I was in bed for two days, felt absolutely awful and exhausted for about another five days, and it took me probably four weeks after that to really get my energy levels back and get rid of the crushing fatigue. I happened to have a week’s holiday booked that ended up being the week after I tested negative, and I’m convinced a week of total rest and recuperation is what really helped me recover properly.

    8. Snark*

      Oh my goodness, this sounds awful! When I got Covid last winter, I had mild symptoms for a week (during which I kept testing negative), and then two weeks of sleeping 20 hours a day. I did some WFH in the 4 hours I was awake but I probably should’ve skipped it; months later I would go back and find emails I’d written during that time that I had *no memory of reading/writing.*

      I also don’t want to be an alarmist, but there’s some evidence that trying to push yourself while you have Covid increases your chances of Long Covid. It’s much, much better to take time off now rather than harming yourself in the long term.

    9. Person from the Resume*

      Sympathy! I believe the newer strains are more contagious and less impacted by the vaccine. COVID is hitting people harder. The “it was just like a mild cold” is not for the new strains.

      My story matches yours somewhat. I was sick for 11 days. Started on a Friday, but then I was sick for the weekend, took off of work all week, sick again through the weekend, and went back to work part time the second Monday. I had fever for 3-4 days. An absolutely miserable, terrible sore throat for one day. Lost my voice for 3-4 days. Terrible racking cough not slowed by cough medicine or cough drops for the final 5 days. And even as I moved through the symptoms, I did not get anything close to a full nights sleep for the 11 days after the first symptoms. At the end it’s just hard to sleep when you’re coughing so much.

      Take as many days off as you can. Stop trying to work through it if you can afford the days off. Consider half if possible as you’re getting better.

      I would respond to their kind wishes saying, “Thank you. COVID is awful, I still feel really sick, but I hope I’m better soon too.”

      1. Amber Rose*

        Coughing fits wake me up every 3-4 hours. It’s not helping the fatigue. I plan to sleep most of tomorrow if I can.

        My boss is off today but on Monday I’ll see about working half days, or if I can continue WFH and just come in when I have stuff to take care of.

        1. Oliverr*

          One thing that helped me was that the urgent care prescribed me a short term inhaler when I got my pcr test because she said my lungs sounded really tight when I was coughing. Is there any chance you can get one? I had never used one before but it helped immensely when I could not stop coughing.

          Also no other answers but solidarity, I was sick for two weeks and am now on week four of just feeling off. My boss had covid at the same time and she had just a cold. I hope you get as much rest as you need, it is truly the only thing that will help.

    10. my 8th name*

      Don’t feel bad. Every strain is different and effects people differently. People I know who had Covid over a year ago and again recently say the second time was way more severe.

    11. Parenthesis Dude*

      That’s definitely not the case for everybody. Some people suffer like you have. You’re not alone.

      I’d talk to your manager about going on short-term disability if you have it. If not, FMLA.

    12. My Useless 2 Cents*

      I know you say you have no appetite but if possible make a conscious effort to eat something every couple of hours at least. It may feel like you are just laying around, but your body is using up a lot of energy trying to fight off the virus. Water, water and more water. And last, if you can, try propping yourself up in more of a seated position to sleep; sometimes the more elevated position can open up your lungs allowing you to sleep better. (Not a doctor, but these are my go-to when sick that usually help me.)

      As for work, I agree, try talking to your manager about taking some more time off or working from home as much as possible. If there are any tasks that someone else can do for a week or so to get them off your plate, that may help relieve some stress and back-log until you feel better. Speaking of which, I really do hope you start feeling better soon!

      1. Amber Rose*

        I’m trying to eat. It’s a bit better today, I seem to have most of my sense of taste back. When I couldn’t taste or smell anything I couldn’t choke down food to save my life, it was all so gross. I’ve been eating mostly bread. Those enormous packs of dinner rolls have been most of my groceries.

        I get full faster though. A sandwich leaves me feeling like I ate a 3 course meal.

    13. Girasol*

      If you’re sick, you’re sick. Stay home and get some rest (that is, don’t work!) if at all possible. When you’re exhausted you make mistakes that can set you back further than if you just took time off. It’s a foolish American workplace habit that we feel we have to drag ourselves in half dead because there’s always some boss or coworker who will say, “Well, I would have come to work if I was that sick!”

    14. JustaTech*

      That sounds awful, I’m so sorry!
      My coworker got COVID and she was down and out for several days (her comment “I was so exhausted I watched the baseball game because I couldn’t lift the remote”).
      Other folks have been basically a case of the sniffles.

      You’re not a whiner, you’re sick! And if you’re sick, you’re sick and the only thing to be done is to rest. Unless everyone you work with is a complete jerk they’re not going to think “Oh Amber Rose what a slacker, what a weenie.” They’re thinking “Oh my goodness, poor Amber Rose sounds so sick! Maybe she should go back to bed for a while.”

      And based on the responses about the throat-clearing coworker earlier this week, if you’re coughing that much I bet all your coworkers would be perfectly happy for you to go home and either stay in bed or WFH.

      I hope you recover soon!

    15. Elizabeth West*

      Oh Amber Rose, I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

      Is there any way you could consolidate the tasks that require the most attention for a time in the day you’re feeling better and then leave early? Or talk to your boss and see if some things can be taken off your plate. And ask your doctor if they can recommend anything to help, up to and including more leave with a note.

      *hug* I hope you feel better soon. F*ck COVID!

    16. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

      Hey, long-COVID sufferer here– got it back in March 2020 and despite being, like, the only person in my city still masking indoors (because it messed me up so bad the first time), I just tested positive for it again. You have my deep understanding and sympathy, and I’m definitely hoping you recover soon.

      You need rest. Your one and only body is more important than even the greatest job. Rally your most supportive coworkers and tell them how very, very ill you still are, and how much you appreciate their helping you through this difficult time. There will be ample chances for you to pay back the favor to them in the future when you are feeling better. Based on how conscientious you sound, I guarantee most people know you wouldn’t fake it and slack off and call out if you didn’t need to. Plus, most people who aren’t jerks are glad to be able to help support someone they care about through a difficult time, and pragmatically speaking, the more rest you get now, the higher your chances of getting better before their altruism runs out. Take the time you need now while you have some strength to heal, and don’t wait til your body forces you down at an even more inopportune time because you pushed it too hard.

      1. Onwards and Upwards*

        Agree. Fellow Long Covid sufferer here. Pushing yourself won’t help. Letting yourself off the hook will. Everything else simply has to wait. Even if that’s a challenge because of finances, caring responsibilities, etc. It’s not easy, but everything else simply has to wait.

    17. allathian*

      I’m so sorry you’re still feeling sick. I hope you can get the rest you need and can avoid long Covid. At the very least you should advocate for getting WFH, but preferably you should be on sick leave/temporary disability. You’re clearly not fit to work.

    18. NotARacoonKeeper*

      Seconding everyone who suggesting rest and being kind to yourself! My April ’22 COVID case was like yours (4 days in bed), but I had long(er) COVID impacts that meant I couldn’t stand for more than a minute for a full month. I ended up working closely with a post-COVID physio who characterized the brain effects I was having as equal to a moderate concussion (I’ve had baseline concussion testing done, so this was measurable). I was off for work for 5 weeks. Even after I started my ramped return to work, my brain still took time to catch up; 8 weeks after my infection, I had this hour where I entirely forgot the PIN to my phone, which I’ve used since 2012. 9 weeks after infection, while paddling west into a sunset, I argued vehemently to my friend that the sun sets in the east.

      I’m lucky – 3 months after my infection, I was finally physically feeling like pre-COVID me; just before then I realized my brain hadn’t been making huge gaffes anymore, and I was performing high level work again. This isn’t like other illnesses, and it’s wildly different between people!

      I highly recommend asking to work remotely for the next two weeks, at least. I saw that your colleagues will need to cover some of your tasks – that is entirely an okay ask to make of them! Not having to commute, get ready, walk as far to the bathroom, make small talk – these are all things that will help your recovery and lower your risk of prolonged impacts. If you’re feeling awkward about asking, just imagine your favourite coworker asking you to do these tasks so they could recovery from a serious illness – of course you would say yes if you can. Good luck! I hope you heal quickly.

  18. The Prettiest Curse*

    (This is about a Netflix documentary, but from a work perspective.)
    Are any other event planners out there watching the Woodstock ’99 documentary on Netflix like it’s a horror film? People who plan music festivals must have nerves of steel (I’d never want to be responsible for the safety of thousands of people), but the planning for this event was just a massive abdication of responsibilty, a failure on so many levels, and completely agonising to watch.

    The organisers were stuck in the mindset of the original event – they didn’t realise that the culture (hello, extremely toxic 90’s misogyny), the live music industry and (most importantly) the drugs that young people were taking had all changed.

    They made some of the worst errors that you can make in event management, namely:
    1. Managing the event that you imagined, instead of the one that’s actually happening.
    2.(Related to #1) Completely losing perspective on your event, and
    3. Half-arsing the planning process and just hoping for the best.
    (The planners of the Fyre Festival made exactly the same mistakes.)

    Anyone who wants to get into event planning should watch this documentary to find out which mistakes to avoid. The only good thing you can say about the planning of Woodstock ’99 was that at least the event management didn’t hire the Hell’s Angels to provide security. But they clearly didn’t consider attendee safety, and that’s the worst possible thing that can happen at an event of that size.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      If you really want to sweat, watch Class Action Park. It’s a hilarious documentary about the absolute worst way you can run an amusement park.

      2. Hotdog not dog*

        I left some skin on the Alpine Slide back in the early 80s. The documentary was spot on! How they stayed in business as long as they did is a complete mystery.

      3. The Prettiest Curse*

        I have that documentary on my DVR, just haven’t got around to watching it yet. But I’ve read about that place, and yikes!

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      It’s been awhile since I worked in event management but yes, my logistical instincts were screaming about how preventable some of those problems were.

      1. Ama*

        I spent a few years where I had to handle event logistics at work and after spending even a little time doing that it is amazing to me how many people think they can just make a contract with a venue and announce an event and the planning will all take care of itself. I watched a bit of one of those Fyre Fest documentaries and it was clear those people hadn’t even thought through things like “we’re going to have chairs in this area, so where are we getting chairs from and how are the chairs getting to the island” — it was like they just expected they’d draw chairs on their planning map and some mysterious elf would set them up.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          Yup. If you go to any kind of event that runs smoothly, it’s because an event planner spent months (possibly years) planning it. I plan an annual event that takes place at the end of June and we’ve just set our date for 2023. Events don’t plan and coordinate themselves!

          1. Cthulhu's Librarian*

            True that. I remember being on a convention planning team for all of three weeks when I was in college. It was fairly well run, but the logistics of it were so far beyond what 19yo me had any idea of – thankfully, we had a bunch of experienced hands and professionals actually running the show, and I was just functioning as a support person.

        2. Warrior Princess Xena*

          Our cohort at work had a hard enough time organizing a big sandwich order for about 30 people, let along planning ANY kind of event. It very much makes me appreciate people who are good at planning and arranging things.

      1. I-Away 8*

        The ’69 concert was a disaster as well. A series of venues cancelled on them, and the one they secured at the last minute was prepared for only 50,000 attendees, despite 186,000 tickets having been sold. Then almost half a million people showed up and got in without paying. And two people died.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          I don’t know as much about the planning for the original Woodstock, but it seems like it was just as half-arsed as the ’99 edition. It’s just that the whole thing didn’t go out live on TV.

          The fact that some of the people at the original really did believe in the peace and love stuff meant that it didn’t end in a riot, but there was significant amounts of sexual violence (and inadequate security) at both incarnations. So I think the main difference is that they got away with bad planning in the original festival, but not at the ’99 version.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Ha! The description here of ’99 sounds like 1969 all over again. Not seeing much difference.

              People I have talked to said 1969 was not that great at all and kind of a bust for a number of reasons.

    4. Pass the Just-For-Men*

      I’ve never had to plan an event that big, but I always hated planning any event, and outdoor events would really spike my anxiety because typically things have to be planned and booked months in advance and any number of things can ruin it that are totally outside of your control (rain, excessive heat, covid, etc.)

      1. anonagaintoday*

        Yeah it’s amazing how many people want to get into “events” without realizing how much of it is planning for rest rooms, portalets, trash crews, dumpsters, security, parking, and traffic.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          Exactly, it’s all glamour till someone drops their phone in the port-a-potty…

    5. Riot Grrrl*

      I saw this too. One of the most poignant factors for me was how for the original Woodstock the average age of the planners was only 2 years older than the average age of the attendees. (I looked this up later.) For Woodstock ’99, the main planners were at least a generation and a half older.

      You’re spot on to note how they failed to realize how much the culture had changed. I mean, I’m not totally convinced that misogyny was worse in the 90s than it was in the 60s, so much as the form of that misogyny had changed (all of the toxicity of patriarchy but stripped of the protections afforded by earlier eras of paternalism).

      One of the moments that most crystalized the generation gap was the closing of the festival. A bunch of aggressive and (rightfully) exhausted kids who had been waiting all day for a “special treat” that they think is going to be a performance by Guns n Roses or Prince gets shown a video of… Jimi Hendrix. What an unbelievable miscalculation.

      1. Observer*

        I mean, I’m not totally convinced that misogyny was worse in the 90s than it was in the 60s, so much as the form of that misogyny had changed (all of the toxicity of patriarchy but stripped of the protections afforded by earlier eras of paternalism).

        This.

    6. RisRose*

      I previously worked in professional sports/stadium operations and made the mistake of watching the Fyre Festival documentary the weekend before opening day…..

    7. Observer*

      (The planners of the Fyre Festival made exactly the same mistakes.)

      I think you’re giving them too much credit. I honestly don’t believe that there was any good faith there, to start with.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Hmm, I think they come out about the same, in terms of failure. Both were vastly over-hyped. Fyre Festival was harder to leave, since it was on an island, but nobody died. Woodstock ’99 organisers at least attempted to organise a viable music festival and some people apparently had a good time. In both cases, attendees were under-fed and dehydrated on an unsanitary and unsuitable event site. (The scenery at Fyre Festival looked nice, though.)

        The guy who created Fyre Festival was definitely a scammer. I wouldn’t describe the Woodstock organisers that way, but they definitely had the same attitude towards the failure of the event that they planned – namely, that none of it was their fault.

    8. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      I haven’t, but I’ll add it to my watchlist!
      (Which makes me remember, I’m still waiting for a formal apology for the disastrous company event I had to attend two months ago, with not enough food and no seats for +200 employees)

    9. Language Lover*

      I also recommend the HBO episode of the Music Box series on the festival. It was done before the Netflix documentary and the organizers come off as even worse in that one. It also gives a more critical perspective as a lot of reporters are interviewed.

      I’d say some of the issues also relate to lack of diversity. The planners (or at least those that were interviewed) were all white men of a certain age. Had they had more diversity, someone might have pointed out the issues with the lineup and the kind of crowd it’d attract.

  19. DaniCalifornia*

    I am an admin for a big tech company. I am finishing my masters this fall in UX Design/Research and will be switching careers and do not have plans to stay at current company as they don’t actually have any UX roles. I support several high level people who are aware I’m in school for a completely different field but on the day to day don’t have the capacity to remember that. Our company is also hurting for admins right now, most admins are almost at retirement age while I’m in my 30s.

    I’m looking for advice for a major career change in general or if anyone else has been in a similar situation and how they handled it. What went well, what went bad, or if there was anything they’d wish they’d done differently?

    FWIW, I know I have every right to interview, stay quiet, and once I have a job offer give my 2 weeks notice (or as much notice as I can) My bosses knew my school plan since I interviewed with them in 2020 and our company culture is to encourage professional growth and education. They were aware that when I graduated I’d be looking for a new role either within the company or outside.

    1. Lifelong student*

      Years ago, I was a paralegal and part time college student majoring in accounting. I worked for a medium size law firm in a medium sized city where everyone knows everyone else. A few months before I graduated, I talked to the spouse of the attorney I worked for and expressed concern the the attorney would be upset with me when I started looking for accounting positions. We had known them for 20 some years but were not in the same social circle so the conversation was casual at an office picnic. When I graduated, the attorney came to me, let me know his spouse had reminded him I would probably be looking and offered any assistance in my search.

      So – maybe a back door approach will help soften things.

    2. Jellyfish*

      I also switched from admin work into a completely different field via a graduate degree and some off-hours resume building activities. At the time, I was very open with my employer about my long term plans and job search. In retrospect, that was a bad idea. I was trying not to leave them hanging, but I only ended up hurting myself. It worked out for me eventually, but my bosses 100% opted to protect their own interests at my expense, and I gave them the capacity to do that.

      Loyalty from a company to its employees is typically one way, even when they claim otherwise. Finish your degree, interview, stay quiet, and give your two weeks notice. That’s adequate professionalism on your part, and probably exactly what others in your company would do in your place. Congrats and good luck!

    3. Observer*

      A lot depends on the kind of people you are working with / for.

      If they are smart, decent and “get” the concept of enlightened self interest, it might work to your benefit to give them nice long notice. Because what you will be basically trading off is that you will help with a smooth transition where they can find your replacement and have you train in the new person and maybe even work alongside them for a while. And you can use them both for references on the transferable skills side. And maybe even a bit of networking.

      On the other hand, if these are the kinds of folks who are SHOCKED when someone wants to move in another direction, just keep it quiet and hand in your two weeks when you have your new job.

  20. Keywords*

    I’m looking for suggestions on keywords to use while using job search engines (as opposed to searching for specific job titles). I’m looking for a job where I’d mostly work with records or information and not deal with people much (so not customer service or receptionist type work). I’ve tried using these keywords:

    detail oriented
    organized
    data entry
    filing
    records
    clerk

    These haven’t been really helpful. It seems like the only jobs that come up in searches are either low paying jobs I’m overqualified for, or jobs that require specific degrees and years of experience that I’m underqualified for.

    (I have a list of keywords to use to try to find a job similar to what I do now, but I’ve only found four jobs to apply to since I started job hunting in early June, so I’m trying to broaden what I’m looking for.)

    1. Pass the Just-For-Men*

      Is there a particular role that you’re looking for? I work in marketing and communications so I stay vague when searching on Indeed/LinkedIn/Zip Recruiter by only searching on the most common denominator of the titles I’m looking at. Basically just searching under marketing and trolling through all the mud before I find the gold nuggets of jobs that I would want to work.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You can find jobs that are similar to each other by using myskillsmyfuture.org — put in the name of the job that’s more or less close, and it’ll give you related positions – with comparisons for skill sets/wages/education, etc.

      Then use the new job titles for searching.

      You might also want to think more about the companies/industries that are likely to have that sort of back office record keeping and build a list of target companies where you’ll check all of their postings every week. It might be that there’s a job posting out there that doesn’t score high on your search, but secretly is perfect for you.

    3. my 8th name*

      This isn’t a key word recommendation but I recommend looking at jobs at universities. They have tons of internal data administration roles. Pay will depend on school though.

    5. ope!*

      May I suggest “technician”? It’s technically a title, but I’d still recommend it as a keyword because it’s such a common job title it’s linked to many different fields and types of work, usually related to someone who does background support work to a team or professional. Depending on the employer and role, I see positions for technicians make 30 – 80k, so it’s certainly not “just” entry level roles.

    6. afj5*

      Manufacturing companies have Documentation Specialists and/or a Documentation Manager responsible for reviewing and formatting engineering documents and entry into a Product Data Management system. You still need to contact others when your review reveals missing information, but the majority of the work tends to be meticulous cross-referencing and data entry.

    7. Nesprin*

      Archivist, Data Management, Records Management, or Document Specialist would be the terms that I’d think of.

  21. Pass the Just-For-Men*

    Has it become common practice for HR and recruiters to say they are passing an interview onto the next round of interviews without any intention to actually do so? I feel like when I’ve looked before, I could tell where they stood and that they were typically pretty honest. For example, if they had no intention of passing me on to the next round, they just didn’t bring up the next round unless asked, nor would they say they were going to do so. That’s all I needed, hint taken, and I would forget about the experience and move on as quickly as possible.

    Now every phone screen I get, they all say they are going to move me, but I’ve only seen about a 40-50% response and schedule of the next round of interviews. A lot of the times, I’m indifferent but when it’s something I really want and I’ve already been on 2 rounds of interviews, I can’t help my hopes from getting elevated some. Plus, I’m a pretty prepared person, so if I think I’m getting that next interview, I do some more homework to further the conversation along to sell myself as the best candidate and this just wastes my time.

    Between that, the news of rescinded offers, and everything else, I don’t understand why employers have to take a relatively straight-forward thing and make it dodgy. When I’ve hired, I never mention what next rounds are for people that I knew I never wanted to talk to again.

    Not really sure there is much to discuss with this, but more of a general venting of frustration as I think something is going to happen that isn’t.

    1. fueled by coffee*

      This has happened to me before, including once when they said they would pass me on to the next round and I would hear by the following week, then went radio silent and when I followed up by email to check in a few weeks later I discovered that they had disabled the email address I’d been given as a contact so all my messages were bouncing back.

      Yesterday’s letter about getting ghosted at the offer stage was obviously a worse version of this, but I imagine that what’s happening is probably some combination of (1) finding an “ideal” candidate that they want to nab quickly and pursuing them to the detriment of other applicants, (2) interviewers saying they’ll pass you on to the next round but meaning something more like “*IF* we pass you on to the next round, you’ll hear by X date,” (3) having a much more competitive applicant pool than they were expecting, and (4) things getting lost in the shuffle.

      1. Pass the Just-For-Men*

        OMG, the email address thing is wicked. I would want to go on indeed so quickly and mention that. It’s absolute BS. That sucks that happened to you, but that is clearly a bullet dodged.

        I’m getting low-key anxious about getting an offer rescinded. After never thinking in a million years that I would get laid off (after surviving many, many rounds at previous companies) to having it happen to me twice in succession now, I feel like I’m going to finally get an offer and have the rug pulled out from under me.

    2. Susan Calvin*

      That’s not the most inspiring answer, but it’s possible that the HR recruiter is indeed passing you on, and that’s the first time someone who actually understands the role they’re trying to fill gets their eyes on the candidates, and is making some additional eliminations. imho doing it that way around is wasting both the recruiters’ and the candidates’ time, but depending on how important and/or busy the hiring manager is, it might be sensible for the business – how messed up a process has to be for that to happen after 2 rounds, I can’t imagine though!

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, I hope this is not the case, but whenever someone reports that HR interviewed them and things went well but there was no follow up, I’m reminded of the time I was helping administer a hiring process for a senior role in my department (I was very junior but I was helping schedule the meeting rooms, printing resumes for the committee, etc.). HR was doing the phone screens and they kept passing on candidates that were just not suitable at all. Then we found out HR had marked all the desired criteria backwards — so they were sending us, for example, only candidates who had a specific degree when my boss had actually said he *didn’t* want candidates with that degree (the position we were hiring for was a niche specialization that was often mistaken for a different type of job that required that degree).

    3. irene adler*

      I think the practice with many HR departments is to never tell the candidate any kind of disappointing information. Always leave ’em with a positive feeling.

      Hence, every candidate is told they will be moved forward.
      Every candidate is still in the running when calling back a few weeks later to see where things stand.
      Every candidate is invited to “email if you have questions” by HR – and sometimes the hiring manager too.

      All this to avoid the “can you tell my why I was not moved forward/hired, please?” conversation.

    4. MigraineMonth*

      Unless it’s the hiring manager themselves saying you’re moving on to the next round, it might mean that the screening is moving to the next stage… which is review by the hiring manager.

      Which is probably a charitable interpretation, but I try to never assume malice when it could be someone making a mistake.

    5. Two Chairs, One to Go*

      I’ve been working with a lot of recruiters and how I understand it is that they’re sending your resume/candidacy to the hiring manager. From there it’s up to the hiring manager who they want to interview.

    6. Churpairs*

      This happened to me last fall with a recruiter who was uber excited about my candidacy. They ghosted me and I found out later through the grapevine that they decided to leave the position with the interim for another year. Kind of hope the recruiter reaches back out when they fill it again so I can tell them to eff off.

  22. Nicnac*

    Hey, bit of an odd one here. Looking to transition to a new career – I’m a personal chef, which can pay really well but I’m pretty burnt out on at this point in my life. I feel very done.
    I used to do freelance IT but it was over a decade ago and I don’t have a degree. I can’t say I miss the office, but I want stability and a good paycheck, and the ability to work remotely. That said, I’m in my late 30s with a few aborted attempts at going back to school. I’ve never coded and I’ve been away from tech even in my personal life for a long time. Is there something I can do/start working towards, with remote possibilities, that will get me to a six figure salary in the next 5-6 years?

    Is this an absolutely ridiculous question?
    I could go back to school as well but have managed to get to this point in my life without debt and kind of want to keep it that way. That said, I’d be happy to start a program that would cost something but open some doors, just not looking to go get a degree. Would a degree even help? Am I too old to be starting over like this?

    1. Savvy*

      I’m not an expert, but in similar discussions I have seen the position of Software Developer suggested It seems to have good long term career and earning potential and does not necessarily require a degree, as there are lots of independent courses and learning paths.

    2. The Other Evil HR Lady*

      This is not an advertisement, I swear. There’s are very affordable universities online and you can accelerate your program by simply doing the work faster. Off the top of my head, Western Governors University is one of them (they’re accredited and not-for-profit, both of which you want). It’s about $3700 per 6-month semester, and they ask you to take a minimum of 12 credits, but you can do more if you move faster through the courses, since they’re self-paced. They also accept a very high number of credits from other colleges/universities – if you have any.

      That’s if you wanted to go back to school and hone your IT chops (?).

    3. just passing through*

      This isn’t something I have personal experience with, but my SO, who’s in the programming field, has recommended code bootcamps. I think that would be much less (in debt and commitment) than getting a new degree, but would help you break back into the tech field–that’s what they’re specifically designed to do. Have you looked into that?

      Again, not something I have the personal knowledge to recommend, just a hint for something you might Google!

      1. Spearmint*

        I’m not in tech, but I know some people who are. Boot camps vary a lot in quality, so do your research and be skeptical. And, heads-up, but just because a bootcamp is affiliated with a major university does not necessarily mean it’s a high quality program.

        That said, some people have had good experiences with them, so definitely take a look.

    4. Parenthesis Dude*

      I’d recommend Cyber Security.

      It’s not a ridiculous question. There are people that can definitely do this even at your age. But it’s extremely hard to pull off and requires you to be very talented.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      Have you looked at working at IT support companies? By this I mean companies that provide hosting, hardware and hardware setup and service support to other companies. This is a big business and there are a lot of these companies around. If you are good and reliable at what you do (and I believe most of them train really well), you will move up quickly. They are all totally starved for good employees.
      I agree with everyone else that you probably don’t need a degree.
      Good luck!!

      1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

        Yep! I work for one of these companies & I cosign everything @chauncey gardener said. So many opportunities for growth & development internally & not much in the way of hiring requirements.

    6. PX*

      There was a post a few months back on here (the main blog, not a friday post) by someone talking about data privacy/data security as a new and booming field. Because its quite new, it means you dont need loads of education background to get into it, and also that companies are willing to pay well because not many people know anything about it. Requires you to have the right mindset to deal with legalese/compliance type stuff, but if you do, could be one for you!

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        > don’t need loads of education background

        The OP on that one was a lawyer who went through a course that was discounted through their membership in their local bar association. They leveraged their law degree and legal experience plus the compliance training to get a job with one of the FAANG companies. Their experience shouldn’t be considered ordinary, in my view, but in any event a person would absolutely need specialized education and training for compliance jobs.

    7. dejaju*

      I changed careers from education to tech. I attended a data analysis boot camp; it was a great experience. It was a little bit terrifying at first (I also made the change in my late 30s), but it was a fantastic decision.

  23. Abbott*

    This is long… I’m not sure I expect people to read it, I think I just needed to put my thoughts down and see if anyone might have words of encouragement – many thanks to those who respond.

    I’m in an anxiety spiral. Recently my boss left and I’ve picked up some of her work. I can’t stress enough just how productive and well-respected she was. And while, I feel that the higher ups “believe” in me and have demonstrated support about the work I’ve done — I am regularly feeling overwhelmed and not capable of executing work at the level that she did. In other words, I feel like the words of praise I’ve received is superficial and could easily be overshadowed by any number of problems that could potentially happen with some big projects that are coming up.

    The truth is that my job is public-facing and surprises or issues are common. And for awhile I’ve been feeling that I need a less on-call position for a less public organization. I could manage my anxiety a bit with the support of my boss, but now that she’s gone – I feel like I’m constantly being put in the line of fire and I am exhausted, stressed out, and … done. I have a vacation scheduled at the end of the month, but I don’t think it’s going to ease the burden I feel. So much so, that I have dreams of breaking a leg or an arm – as the physical pain would be preferable to this anxiety.

    I want to leave, but I don’t want to just take a job that gets me out of the organization. It’s not the organization that’s the full problem. It’s the work that I do in general. I’ve also been looking for jobs away from the city, where competition and stress is high. But, it’s been slow going.

    Everyone is saying this is temporary – and it will be because they are going to hire a replacement (which is not me) – but there’s no indication how long that will take. I am the most senior person in my department and there’s no one to take the load of these projects. I’ve delegated as much as I can to others – but it’s not the workload that’s the problem. It’s the stress of the projects themselves, the importance of them, the extensive project management and managing expectations for others and myself, it’s the responsibility I put on myself for them to be flawless and successful.

    I need a break from my brain. From this work. From my life. (I’m in therapy – but my therapist is on vacation for the next two weeks…) Any other nervous nellies on here who can share stories of success or transformation following a period of stress? I need some positive reinforcement that is not based on how well I did, but how well I could do – if that makes sense.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      A commenter on last Friday’s open thread posted a similar question (search for the username “Pilot’s Error”). It may help to read that comment and know you’re not alone feeling overwhelmed with an increase in responsibility after a boss leaves.

      Are you in a financial position where you can quit your job, take a week or two to decompress, and then start a job search? That sounds like it would be the healthiest course of action, but I know it may not be financially feasible.

      Good luck with your situation!

    2. SophieCroft*

      It sounds like the higher-ups have let you take on a lot of your former boss’s job duties both because they need someone to do those things and because they trust and like you. Have you considered going to them (or HR) and spelling out some of what you’ve shared here? While that can backfire spectacularly in unsupportive environments, you don’t describe your workplace as unsupportive. In a healthy workplace, sometimes the problem is just that someone is so good at seeming like they can handle the work that everyone assumes they’re thriving. But if that person comes forward and explains that they’re not okay, many supportive work environments will find ways to address it in order to retain a great employee (you!). Knowing what you’re really experiencing, perhaps they could spread some of those job duties to people a little less senior in your department, who might jump at the chance to do some of that work. Perhaps they could spread some of it among themselves. Perhaps they will increase the pressure on recruiters to find a replacement for your boss. You might be able to think of some things that would really help, like ‘if Julie could take on X…’ or ‘if I just didn’t have to Y…” and they might welcome those ideas.

      I’m in the senior management at my organization and there are countless stories of situations where we’ve been happy to intervene and move work around or change job duties or make other modifications once we know that someone isn’t okay. And, frankly, we’d much rather KNOW that someone isn’t sure that BigProject is going well and is losing sleep over it, than continue to assume that BigProject is going well because the people who took it over are saying all the right things and everything looks good. Once we know, we can put more or different people on it, step in and ask all the micro-managing type questions we might have been hesitant to ask before like whether you checked this or arranged that, and help make sure things are alright. Again, in a chaotic and back-stabbing work environment, opening up like this might have peril, but you don’t describe your company that way, so please consider opening up and letting them carry the burden instead of you.

  24. Spearmint*

    How do you deal with imposter syndrome when you have reason to think you might be correct to feel that way?

    I’ve been at my current job for three years, and I frequently receive high praise from my managers and senior colleagues. I’ve been called a superstar on multiple occasions, and received the maximum possible annual raise for my position two years in a row. My manager said I exceeded expectations in every category in my last performance review.

    The thing is, I’m not sure I agree that I’m a superstar. Most days I only put in 3-4 hours of work (and occasionally even less), even during busy periods. With maybe one or two minor exceptions, I pretty much never go above and beyond or take initiative to do something new. I get done everything I need to done, but I often put tasks off until the last minute when I could have completed them weeks earlier. I also feel I could have better attention to detail if I was more disciplined or motivated, and catch more mistakes, but I’m not particularly motivated to more than what I would consider B+ level work.

    I keep the gears turning, but that’s about it. I think I’m good at my job, but I don’t feel like a superstar, and often I feel like I receive so much praise because I work more independently and no one is closely monitoring my work. I’m not sure what to do with these feelings. It feels wrong to think of myself as a superstar, but on the other hand maybe I’m underestimating myself? Part of my motivation for thinking about this is I’m probably going to search for a new job soon, and I want to have an accurate understanding of my abilities to inform what kinds of jobs I apply for.

      1. Spearmint*

        I remember that letter, but I suppose where I feel different than that LW is that, unlike them, I’ve never had a period in my work life where I busted my butt gaining skills and working long hours. In fact, my current job is only my second professional job ever (and the first was a temporary position). But I suppose that maybe shouldn’t really matter?
        really matter

    3. There With You*

      No advice, but so much sympathy. I struggle with bigger things (which is a huge part of my job) due to CPTSD, which causes inattentive type ADHD symptoms. However, everyone says I’m amazing, no issues, etc. I’m always available when needed – it’s not like I just bail on work, but I struggle to be doing things when I’m not actively needed. I’ve specifically asked my manager to give me more negative (constructive) feedback if there is any, which she said she would do (and I believe it), but I still get very, very little. I’ve been the same person in past jobs and got similar feedback, so maybe me not at my best is still a superstar? Makes me wonder what I’d be like without my issues, lol!

    4. Qwerty*

      There was letter relatively recently that’s very similar to the situation you describe. AAM and the comment section were helpful there.

      Your manager and coworkers are looking at your output and your impact, not the time you spent on it. If they only need B level work and you are turning in B+ work, then you are exceeding expecatations. Unlike school, the real world often does not require perfection in every instance.

      Are you getting specific feedback from your manager or just general praise? I’ve noticed that people with imposter syndrome tend to just get “you’re doing great!” and it helps to hear *why* they think you are great. Maybe it isn’t the quality of your work that they love, but that you reliably turn it in on time or are good are mentoring new hires. Or it could be something that is stupid simple to you but not intuitive to someone else – sometimes when we are good and efficient at something we end up undervaluing it.

      Also, don’t discount how valuable it is to have a dependable employee on a team. Keeping the gears turning is important!

      1. Spearmint*

        This is helpful post, thank you! Yes I think working independently, and so only getting big picture feedback, may be part of the issue. I also work on projects that don’t really have quantitive metrics of success, which adds to the vagueness of feedback.

      2. Wheezyweasel*

        I agree, output and impact make far more of a difference. Society pays firefighters to respond to fires, accients and medical emergencies along with the associated training, community education and similar tasks. We don’t ask them to answer the phones in the public library when they aren’t doing firefighting tasks, or call out the ladder truck to replace streetlights. Yet office work culture in the US, at least, seems to have a holdover of the food service saying ‘if there’s time to lean, there’s time to clean’ and will load up low-impact tasks onto our fastest, most skilled workers. When a ‘fire’ comes through, they can’t respond in their normal manner without disrupting other work, or that work is difficult to offload and makes their response to the fire less effective. I’ve been in that position and have left jobs because of it, and when I found another place that let me *just* be the firefighter : skilled, accurate, fast and knowledgeable, I stay in that role for a lot longer. Yes, there are days where it’s boring, I’m only doing 70% of my capabilities or max capacity – but I stay fresh to fight those fires where experience counts!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      People are allowed to have opinions and we don’t have to agree. I am not sure why you feel you have to agree with them. Say “thanks” and move on.

      BUT.

      For me, I have to live with myself. If *I* know I am not doing my best then what others say becomes irrelevant.

      It sounds like you have mastered this job. Maybe you need to give yourself a good kick and make yourself stretch further and do more. This could be seeking a promotion, taking on more work or even changing jobs.

      Sometimes we can have a nagging little voice that says, “Do better”. And that little voice can pop up when others say we are doing great. There’s probably a legit reason for it. From the sounds of it you probably can achieve more. All you have to do is decide do you want more than what you have now?

  25. The Crowening*

    Hello! I found out this week that I get to go to a conference and meet coworkers I’ve never met in person! I’m very excited. But after 2.5 years working from home, I need work clothes. I wore jeans to work pre-pandemic but that was a different job. In short… I need clothes for a 5 day conference and I’m freaking out a little.

    My go-to used to be Loft, but during the pandemic they transitioned to much more casual clothing lines, and they never transitioned back. They are very “blazer and jeans” now, and I don’t want that for this event.

    I want outfits that look crisp and professional but not super formal. It doesn’t need to be tailored suits or anything. I am also going to be on my feet, potentially running around trying to help with logistics.

    All this to say…. with Loft no longer meeting these needs, where should I look for clothes that are nicer than “jeans and blazer” but not “pantsuit”?

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I’ve actually had good luck with Dressbarn & Nordstrom Rack. I am short & curvy, and their clothes tend to fit. Also, a lot of dresses from FB have pockets. Real ones!

    2. just a thought*

      I used to go to Nordstrom and ask for help from the sales people that are also stylists.
      If you liked Loft, you could also try Ann Taylor

    3. JustMyImagination*

      You could try their sister company Ann Taylor. I find their clothes skew a little more conservative than the Loft so might have what you’re looking for. White House Black Market also tends to have a lot of blazers so you can probably get some mix and match separates. J. Crew and Banana Republic will also have some good finds.

    4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Yes, Loft became the casual counterpoint to the flagship Ann Taylor brand. I’m not sure what your price point is, but for a 5-day conference, you probably don’t need a classic tailored suit that lasts 20 years. You could spend the money for nicer basic separates like a black or gray pencil skirt, black or gray trousers, and add a few colorful (cheaper) tops and cardigans from places like Target, H&M or Kohl’s. Macy’s would have a variety of styles for the pants and skirts.

    5. ErinB*

      My one-or-two-steps-up from the Loft go-to bottoms are Theory cropped pants. Although they’re a bit pricey, you can usually find some colors on sale, either at the Theory website or through Rue La La/TheOutnet.com. I find that they drape really nicely (even without tailoring) in a way that makes them look professional and put-together without screaming “pantsuit.” You can pair with a blouse, sweater, or dressy tee (depending on how formal you’re looking for) and flats (cropped = no worries about hemming with heels!).

    6. BellyButton*

      My go-to are wrap dresses. They can be casual or dressy, and look good with a blazer, cardigan, or on their own. They tend not to wrinkle if you are careful with which material you get. Daily Ritual, an Amazon brand, has some great ones for really reasonable prices and a wide range in sizes from XS to plus sizes. I wear them with anything from sneakers, flip flops, flats, and heels. Depending on accessories that can literally go anywhere.

    7. SophieCroft*

      You’ve gotten great advice already. A simple dark pair of pants can be worn multiple days with a different top. If a wrap dress is flattering on you, those can be very professional looking, either with or without a blazer over it. The last day of a conference is often when everyone is completely over dressing to impress, so dark jeans or khakis with a presentable top will probably blend in perfectly. Also consider whether your coworkers will be going out for dinner or doing evening events. My experience is that men don’t always change for dinner, but women usually do, so consider bringing some extra clothing (maybe more dresses or a “night out” jeans and top look) that you’d be comfortable wearing for dinner with coworkers, meeting them at the lobby bar, etc., if you anticipate those events. My first conference, I packed clothing for each day, and then very casual things for dinners on my own, and then was mortified when I got invited out to dinner with a group of people I wanted to impress and had to rewear conference outfits. Obviously not the end of the world, but it felt like it in the moment.

    8. Dark Macadamia*

      I just got a job and bought several pairs of Pixie pants from Old Navy. They’re more comfortable than most work pants I’ve had but look nicer than jeans

      1. Velociraptor Attack*

        I love the Pixie but I will say I got two pairs at the beginning of this year and one of the colors (navy blue) faded incredibly quickly while the others still look great.

        1. Paris Geller*

          Yeah I have found that the quality control on Old Navy clothes varies so wildly! Most of my work pants + my jeans are from there and even if I have two in the same cut/style, some last so much longer than others. They’re always having sales & deals so I put up with the uncertainty for the price, but it is worth noting.

    9. Jora Malli*

      If you’ve got the time and patience, I’ve found some of my best Office Clothes at places like Ross, Marshalls, TJ Maxx, and Burlington. These kinds of stores can be hit or miss and it can take more work to find the good stuff than it would be at a normal department store, but some of my favorite dress pants and blazers have come from Burlington.

    10. Ama*

      Banana Republic dress pants are my go to and they often have really good sales. For blouses and dresses I find I like Boden better in terms of my personal style although the drawback with Boden is that you can only order online (although their return policy is good and easy if something doesn’t fit). But I find Boden’s pants to be more “business casual” than “business” so I stick to BR for “nice work event” pants.

    11. bratschegirl*

      Seconding J Crew and Banana Republic; my law clerk kiddo wears a lot of stuff from them. If budget is no object, Eileen Fisher is polished without being pantsuit.

      1. Sheeplike but Not Sheepish*

        You can get brand new Eileen Fisher stuff for a fraction of retail on ebay. I’ve bought loads there.

    12. JustaTech*

      My go-to conference pants are from BetaBrand (online only I think). They’re styles like trousers (so not fitted through the leg), but they’re elastic waistband (but look like regular pants) and are made of a really heavy knit that reads like wool. Basically they’re yoga pants with pockets that look like dress pants. Very comfortable and warm (useful in freezing hotel conference rooms) and travel really well. I’ve got a basic black and a grey-and-white pinstripe.
      I’ve paired them with blouses and blazers from Nordstrom (the Caslon or Halogen lines that are less fancy) or Nordstrom Rack.

      For shoes I wear something flat and dressy, usually oxfords (because I need laces to hold my orthodics in). I find that it’s easier to rock flats with pants than with a dress, but that’s probably a personal thing.

      1. Perpetual Job Seeker*

        Came here to recommend Beta Brand as well! I have a heckuva time with finding pants that fit me… And these are great and really comfy.

    13. Hillary*

      You’ve got this. Folks already mentioned Nordstrom Rack, I’ve also found a lot of excellent professional clothes on ThredUp since everyone’s cleaning out their closets.

      I just got home from a conference – it was much more casual than the same event three years ago. It used to be button downs & khakis with some sport coats or suits. This year it was polo shirts & jeans with a few blazers. Lots of dressy sneakers, few dress shoes. There were a few suits on day one, day two no suits and some people wore shorts. I have a feeling a lot of events are going that way.

    14. Westsidestory*

      Talbots. The pieces fit together nicely and even the accessories color coordinate.

    15. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I spent literally hours looking for business professional clothes last week, and H&M of all places was the best by far. Some of their stuff is too trendy for my taste (I’m not a fan of oversized blazers that look straight out of the 80s) but they have some great classic looks for a really reasonable price.

      I also have a few pairs of slacks from White House Black Market that are fine, but kind of pricey for the quality.

  26. quill*

    I studied Environmental Science and am trying to get back into that field, but all currently open roles are looking for experience I don’t have / can’t get because there are no junior level positions open. Does anyone know of any industries I might be overlooking that deal with permitting, environmental monitoring, or water quality?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Have you looked at conservancy districts and similar quasi-governmental organizations?

      1. quill*

        Yeah, that’s unfortunately where I’m seeing the jobs that are directors / phd’s / 10 years experience only.

        1. lost academic*

          That’s not a great place to start- they need people with a lot of experience in paid positions because they are trying to work with a wide variety of stakeholders and decisionmakers. It’s the first thing so many environmental science folks think of, but to be effective with an NGO you should start somewhere else.

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      Are you looking at jobs that have “regulatory” in the title? That might provide some leads, also companies that deal with hazardous wastes seem to always be looking for folks.

    3. CalAH*

      I don’t have an Environmental Science background, but some of my coworkers do. Could your skills be used in building permitting or plans review?
      A few of my department’s land use planners (think city planners but for a rural area) have Environmental Science degrees. They’re excellent at reviewing building permits for compliance with environmental regulations. They frequently conduct site visits to identify environmentally significant areas, which is generally more affordable for the customer than hiring an environmentalist consultant.
      These planners do also have experience in land use codes. Some agencies or departments may be willing to train you on that side of the work.
      A few Open Threads ago, I posted asking about hiring and retention in state and local governments. The response was that many non-federal governments and agencies are hiring.
      Best of luck!

    4. The Other Evil HR Lady*

      Hi quill,
      What you do is actually something that my company does. But here’s the rub: the two Ecologists we have are all we need, otherwise I’d tell you to check out our website post-haste. That said, it depends on where you are. My company is in Florida, and we do a LOT of permitting/monitoring/water quality for the local governments, private landowners, and we also have a mitigation fund and help others set up theirs.

      Okay, as for experience, our Ecologists took advantage of internships during their college years, and afterwards either came straight to us and we taught them the rest, or went to work for a state’s park service doing monitoring of animals or plants and THEN came to us. So check out government sites, state parks, AmeriCorps, and so on, places that don’t necessarily advertise on Indeed. You might have to take a very entry-level job just to start you out. I hate to say it, but people who are passionate about the environment are not in it for the money…

      That said, I once helped one of our Ecologists with tagging gopher tortoises (they’re licensed to do so, they just needed someone to hold the darn things). That was fun! Beats a day sitting at the computer, that’s for sure.

      1. quill*

        Yeah, part of my problem is that I’m not physically capable of doing a primarily fieldwork job, or I would have started there right after college.

        (I still try to do fieldwork but turns out holding specimens still for my brother’s thesis is significantly less rigorous than hauling soil or water samples! Tortoises and lizards are much easier to lift until you get into the realm of the ludicrously sized snapping turtle, who is probably being moved right along with a broom instead.)

        1. The Other Evil HR Lady*

          Would you like to send me your resume anyway? That’s if you’d like to live in Florida. My company is in Sarasota County, but closer to Punta Gorda. It’s a beautiful area!

          Anyway, if you’re interested, send it to career (at) earthbalance (dot) com and I’ll keep an eye out. Just make sure you tell me it’s quill from AAM! :-D

        2. lost academic*

          This is going to make finding an entry level job a lot harder unless you’ve got an engineering degree too (this is an amendment to my initial response). There’s a lot of assumption about what you can or should do based on your degree (I’d argue it’s silly but getting your foot in the door means you need to know what people assume) and that’s true in government and in the private sector. An environmental science degree doesn’t mean enough to hiring managers because it can mean a lot of different things depending on what you decided to study and where you got your degree (and when). The assumption is generally going to be that you didn’t take as many data science/statistics/math courses as an engineer and can’t necessarily be relied on for the calculation work that’s a big part of permitting. You can look for smaller firms if you can’t find the unicorn entry level job that doesn’t have a major field component, but you should expect to do a lot of Phase 1s and those are field oriented too (though not oil field). There are some field technician type jobs (like LDAR) you could consider if you can do a little additional work and find some openings that might be less physically strenuous, but still might be outside your abilities. On top of it, firms aren’t hiring junior staff for remote work – there’s an emphasis on having local senior resources because you need extensive training in the job, whatever it will be. And people are probably not going to look twice if you need to relocate.

          Amazon hires environmental techs – look there.

          Look at state government jobs but realize without an engineering degree you could either be limited in what’s available or in a much lower pay band because of it.

    5. MsnotMrs.*

      What about government work? Sounds like you might be able to find something at your state’s Game and Parks division.

    6. lost academic*

      Where are you? Because I can tell you that there isn’t a single major environmental consulting firm not dying for junior level support. Apply to all the entry level positions you can find but try to talk to staff at those companies to get connected to the teams doing the hiring because it’s enormously varied. There’s immense competition for staff right now too and it’s good for candidate salaries.

    7. Free Meerkats*

      Look for Pretreatment jobs, Environmental Science is one of the few degrees that relates to my profession. And we’re everywhere at all levels of government. This field really got rolling in the mid 80s/early 90s and there are a lot of use retiring soon or recently retired. Including me, I’m out of here in March…

      At the annual workshop this year, out of 180+ people attending, 140 of them were at their first workshop – everyone is hiring. In the last month on the group I run on groups.io (search Pretreatment Coordinators), there have been 11 jobs listed, about half were entry-level.

    8. Schrodinger's Cat*

      Some things or keywords you might try include state environment departments, city water/wastewater utilities, landfills, air quality, mining, consultants, OSHA, environmental compliance for school districts/colleges (hazardous waste disposal).

    10. Anon scientist*

      Not sure if this is too late, but a few things from someone who is literally hiring right now for environmental consulting entry level jobs:
      1. I am hiring for the long term and my preference is for someone who can get licensed/certified. Geologist, engineer, wetland scientist.
      2. There are a lot of non-science based “environmental science” degrees. I need someone who actually understands the basics of chemistry, reasonably advanced math, etc.
      3. I can use someone who doesn’t have the above if they can show that they’re willing to do fieldwork in adverse conditions. I can work with people who are otherwise career limited if they’re willing to be a field supervisor.
      4. Training takes a long, long time and this is a job that will need independence. Therefore, I’m looking for someone who will be either advancing or not advancing (see permanent field lead) for 3 years +.
      5. Disability is not a barrier but you need to have something else to offer besides “fieldwork all the time”. I know 2 people who had clear disabilities (walking only with canes or other assistance) and they did the fieldwork that worked for them, but they also had the science/engineering chops that meant that they were an asset. See #1 above. I myself have some episodic issues that have sometimes meant that I have gotten an unbudgeted Jr staffer to run around and collect measurements while I sat propped up against a support truck tire – not sustainable for the long term, but ok in a pinch.

      1. Anon scientist*

        Also, a piece of advice related to what I indicated above: if you have coursework in hard skills/science (GIS/CAD, intro to hydro, soils science, bio, etc), list them directly in your resume so that I can see your background. I’ve rejected probably 100 applicants with non relevant or unspecified coursework and have hired 2 environmental scientists over the same period who will have a tough time being certified because they had still had enough relevant coursework/semi related work experience.

    11. Hola Playa*

      Transportation consulting. NEPA evaluation and reporting for airport, roadway, highway, marine, and transit projects. There are huge multidisciplinary engineering firms as well as small, specialized boutique firms who do this work. And of course all the federal, state, local and regional regulatory agencies oversee this type of work. You can niche in a particular category or be a generalist.

  27. KofSharp*

    A coworker of mine has a mixture of a financially abusive ex-partner (can’t get out of his lease until it expires and is unwilling to have an eviction due to nonpayment) and an unwillingness to budget. I’m empathetic to the issues of money due to the current inflation situation.
    He had an unexpected expense come up, and has begun going around the office asking his coworkers for money. We’re peers, but I’m saving up for a house on my own and he knows it.
    How do I professionally keep saying no? I have no control over his salary and I’ve referred him to the budget help through the EAP.

    2. Asenath*

      That’s about all you can do – and if your EAP has good money management advisors on call (and they probably do), and he’s willing to work with them, that would be ideal. I’ve known such advisors to have excellent results.

      But for yourself, all you need to keep saying “Sorry, I can’t help.”

      1. KofSharp*

        They do have good money management advisors, it’s why I usually point him in that direction.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      A polite, repeated “sorry, I don’t have room in my budget” is the way to go. It doesn’t matter that you’re saving up for a house, or that he knows you are saving up for a house (and therefore have money in the bank) because it’s not his money, it’s yours.

    4. PollyQ*

      Well, the fact that he’s continuing to ask people who’ve already turned him down makes him look awfully unprofessional. But here are some scripts. I’d deliver them in as neutral a tone of voice as a possible–not mean, but also not one bit sympathetic, because he’s actually behaving pretty badly here. Financial abuse is serious shit, but begging co-workers for money is not his only option.

      “Sorry, I can’t help you.”
      “Sorry, I don’t ever lend money.”
      “Sorry, I don’t have money to lend.”

      If he keeps asking you, you can follow up with “Fergus, I’m not going to be able to lend you any money. Please stop asking.”

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      AAM has covered this a couple times, though it’s been a hot minute — look for letters titled

      “my coworker keeps asking everyone for loans”
      “my coworker constantly asks us to loan him money”
      “employee keeps asking coworkers for food and money”

      1. KofSharp*

        Thank you, I’ll search them out! It just feels like people don’t get the memo that asking coworkers who make around what you do for money is uncomfortable.

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Switch to giving him the resources and numbers for people who are in domestic abuse situations. They often can help someone get out of a bad financial situation that keeps them with their abuser — legal advice, housing referrals, an escape plan, etc. If you stick to the abuse referrals, he might get help, or he might start to avoid asking you for money.

      Just food for thought, I’ve rented my whole life and every lease I’ve had has an out clause if you work with the landlord. He could be required to pay a 1 month rent penalty (might not have the money I know) or if this is really domestic abuse, he could be out without any penalty. The choice is NOT stay until the end, or have an eviction on your record.

  28. UX/UI Dreams*

    Does anyone have resources/advice for looking into UX or UI design? My background is public health and nutrition counseling, but I am really thinking of switching careers into UX or UI. I’ve read that folks who work in there don’t always have a tech or graphic design background. But I’m also reading about these bootcamps and how they guarantee a job right after, and it feels like a scam… One TikToker I came across also said it’s hard to get a job that way. Anyone who switched into that field could speak on the path?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I used to work in UX before it was its own field. UX and UI are pretty different job functions – this is often confused by companies who want a “UX/UI” person, but this is to save money by combining two positions and what they tend to want is a programmer who took a UX course once. You can usually tell these companies by their lousy websites/apps/products. If you’ve ever said “this interface is horrible, didn’t someone test this before releasing it?” you’ve found the companies that don’t appreciate what UX really does.

      UI designers are the ones who make the widgets work in software or for a website or other kind of user interface. You’d need to know some coding (java, HTML, etc.) for most of this type of work, and ideally you’re developing the interface in collaboration with a dedicated UX person.

      UX researchers are the people who determine, through usability studies and field research, whether the interface works the way it needs to for the user population, why that is, and how to use the data to improve the design. For this type of work you need analytical skills, experience with data gathering, and ideally an understanding of basic psychology, experimental design, and statistics. If you already have this kind of background, you probably don’t need special credentials if you’re able to show how the skills translate to a UX role.

      Bootcamps generally can’t provide the depth of training that make a really solid job candidate, especially if they try to combine both functions and you’re done in 4-6 weeks or whatever. Same with certificates – that’s a good way to see if you’re interested in the kind of work involved, but not considered real credentials by themselves. Even some university master’s programs don’t always provide the range of classes you need to develop a lot of the key skills (hint: if they don’t require psych or stats classes, the program is aimed at software developers, not UX).

      If you use LinkedIn there are a few UX advocates who post a LOT on how to get into UX (or UI), what the issues are with bootcamps, and what programs or approaches are good for getting into the field.

      1. UX/UI Dreams*

        Thank you!! This is so helpful. I do use LinkedIn, would you be open to sharing who those folks are?

      2. Fran Fine*

        You’d need to know some coding (java, HTML, etc.) for most of this type of work, and ideally you’re developing the interface in collaboration with a dedicated UX person.

        This (the part about needing to know code) isn’t true for UI designers. In fact, many UI designers use design tools like Figma, Adobe UX, Amina, and various online animation tools to design and then hand over their prototypes to coders to finish. I know many people working in the field as either UX designers or UI designers – none of them code. A couple are trained graphic designers. I also just finished a UX and UI design program a few months back, and none of the instructors or our guest lecturers – many of whom worked for companies like Microsoft, Disney, and Amazon – were coders or in heavy technical roles before taking their own UX design courses and then landing their positions.

        UX/UI Dreams, if you’re serious about switching to this field, take the Google UX certificate course first (for free) to make sure this is what you actually want to do. I too thought I wanted to make the switch, but discovered that I just like the UI (visual) design aspect and not so much the research or UX side of things. Thankfully, my company paid for my cert so I didn’t lose anything by doing it and the design principles I learned do come in handy in my day job (I’m a comms person).

        Good luck if you decide to proceed!

    2. Fiona*

      My partner did a pretty well-respected boot camp, had a mostly positive experience, graduated into the pandemic, proceeded to be unemployed for a LONG time, and now finally got a job that they love and are great at and are so happy they did the switch. It was tough but worth it for them – but I think everyone’s mileage varies. Like anything, it’s a vicious cycle of employers wanting someone with experience, but you need experience to get a job, etc etc. My partner was very frustrated by how many employers asked for test projects with no compensation – they did a lot of work for free because they were getting desperate. Again, it was worth it in the end but it was a bumpy road.

  29. BalanceofThemis*

    I’m considering a career change, I’ve been working in museum education and education consulting. My academic background is history and archeology, so a lot of research and data analysis. I’ve been told to look into UX Researcher and data analysis roles.

    People in those fields, especially who came into them from non-traditional backgrounds, any tips? I’m not great at resume writing to begin with, and mine will need a complete overhaul, so any advice there would be helpful as well.

    Thank you.

    1. my 8th name*

      Imo, for many data analysis roles you don’t need special certs. Can’t speak to UX. Basically you just need experience with data management, analysis and visualization software and languages. Varies somewhat depending on industry but I generally recommend SQL, PowerBI, Tableau, SPSS, Stata, R, Python. To be clear, I recommending a good mix of these, not all are necessary in one candidate!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I just posted a response to UX/UI dreams just above your post that might be helpful to you. The short version is, if you already have solid experience with research and data gathering and analysis, those are key skills to emphasize for UXR roles. The challenge is to find a UXR role that is really UX and not primarily programming.

      Data science roles are a little heavier on programming as my 8th name says, and the statistical analysis part is really important. Understanding how to properly interpret data is how I would frame your skills if you want to go this direction.

  30. Hawk*

    Does anyone have any weird pets? Do you talk about them at work? I mean pets like reptiles, less popular birds, and rodents (especially the ones that people associate as “kid pets” like hamsters and gerbils). I’ve kept gerbils since I was 14 and they have been key to my mental health (I love my cats, but rodents seem to be better). I’m now 32, and lost my most recent gerbil in a horrible way (heat stroke). I had to call out of work to take him to the emergency vet over an hour away and still lost him that night. I want to adopt more gerbils, but I’ve always been warned by family to never talk about them at work, because people will judge me. I didn’t mention my last gerbil much at work because of that, but now that I’ve lost him, I also feel like I missed out on something. A couple coworkers know about my gerbil ownership but they have been folks who are used to the more uncommon small animal pets. How do you navigate this? (Added context: I’m neurodivergent, and this a social thing I just don’t understand (why is there a pet hierarchy? And pets “just for kids”?)

    1. Susan Calvin*

      Your family is weird. To paraphrase a tweet I saw the other day: By age 30, everyone should have an animal people associate with them, so if they’re trying to figure out a gift, they can just fall back on something cute with that animal on it(*). The more unusual the better I should think, for memorability purposes! Try to avoid infodumping about the finer points of rodent husbandry unless explicitly encouraged, but “oh, went to the vet because my gerbil swallowed a paperclip” is perfectly valid small talk when someone asks about your weekend!

      (*) I’m the Reptile Person – my last team gave me a very soft t-shirt with a bearded dragon print as a goodbye gift, and I cherish it

      1. Susan Calvin*

        Also now I’m horrified at myself for the flippant vet example because I managed to skip past the part about your last gerbil dying when I first read it. I’m sorry about the little guy.

      2. Irish Teacher*

        I like bearded dragons too and actually had an amusing conversation at work where we were talking about unusual pets we’d like and I said a bearded dragon (I was mostly joking; I do like them, but they seem an awful lot of work and I’m not really an animal person, but…if they were less hassle and more suited to our climate, maybe) and a few minutes later, one of my colleagues was like “I’m still confused by the dragon.” I’m not sure if he thought I meant a fantasy dragon or what.

      3. Robin Ellacott*

        I love that idea! I like snails (not as pets, just in general) and people do indeed get me snail things. Once when a local store had snail-shaped salt (!!) and pepper shakers I ended up with four sets. Luckily snails are kind of rare on mugs and such. I also like owls but usually don’t mention that, because owls are EVERYWHERE.

        Personally it never occurred to me to rate people’s pets on some kind of scale. I guess if someone was very distressed their fish died I’d be mildly surprised, but not judgy. That’s a weird reaction.

        1. KoiFeeder*

          You’d be surprised at how personable fish are when they’re in a proper habitat and not sad, inbred goldfish trapped in unfiltered bowls. :p

    2. ThatGirl*

      Two of my coworkers have snakes, and they talk about them a moderate amount.

      I think hamsters/gerbils are seen as “kid pets” because they’re less work than a cat or dog and often a ‘gateway pet’ for people with kids. But I wouldn’t personally judge anyone who talked about their hamsters or gerbils or pet rats or whatever! As long as you’re not talking about them excessively*, you should be fine.

      *I only say this because you describe yourself as neurodivergent, and I know some ND folks tend to fixate on subjects. Mentioning them now and then is FINE.

    3. MsM*

      I think your family is showing their weirdness a lot more than they’re giving you any kind of advice you should listen to. Gerbils are cool. At worst, you’ll probably get some people who want to share stories of their misadventures with small rodents from when they were kids, but I really doubt you’re going to get anyone judging you for having them. And if you do, again, that’s their problem.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My household, collectively, includes two dogs, three cats, four snakes, a tegu and a pacman frog (and a box of dubia roaches but they’re officially food for reptiles).

      None of the non-mammals are technically mine, so if I’m gonna tell pet stories it’s most likely about my dogs or one of my husband’s cats, but I’ve told snake and lizard stories when they’re particularly entertaining, to people who don’t mind snake and lizard stories. (The frog isn’t very interesting.) I don’t share pictures of the sneks without verifying first whether people are okay with it. In my case, it mostly boils down to “our weirdos are reptiles and some people don’t like reptiles; I don’t want to hear about anyone’s pet tarantula so I get it.”

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          The tegu lives in an enormous grow tent and likes hunting the bugs (of course that’s not all she eats but they’re a favorite snack) and digging in her substrate. She’s about 2 now I think?

          The snakes are a milk snake, a corn snake, a ball python and a boa constrictor of some sort (I think red tail but not positive). The python is about four feet, maybe a bit more, and the boa is a little over five feet last I heard and about as big around as my arm, he’s a brick. The other two are pretty small. They’re all girls except for the boa.

    6. Irish Teacher*

      I don’t think there is a pet hierarchy, exactly. Sure, some pets are more common than others or better liked, but I don’t think there is any reason why you shouldn’t talk about your gerbils. I can’t imagine anybody judging you for that. I have NEVER heard of such a thing.

      I don’t think there’s anything to navigate here. Mention your gerbils or don’t, whatever suits you. Yeah, they are common pets for kids because they involve less “looking after” than a dog, say, but that doesn’t mean they are “just for kids” or adults can’t own them. Some people might associate them with kids because they might know more kids that have them, but even there…I don’t think that’s necessarally the case. At most, you’re likely to get a response along the lines of “oh cool. I had a gerbil when I was a kid” or maybe “oh? You’re the only adult I’ve met who has a gerbil,” but even that is unlikely.

      Personally, I think your family members might be off-base here. A gerbil is completely innocuous. MAYBE if you had a pet tarantula or like a house full of large snakes or something, some people might find it a bit weird, though even that wouldn’t be a big deal. But a gerbil. I doubt anybody is going to think anything of it.

    7. Paris Geller*

      Your family is the one being weird about it. I have had (and had) coworkers with various pets/animals. I’m not personally a reptile fan so I stay away from conversations about pet snakes/lizards/etc., but there are plenty of people who share that interest and should be able to mention your pets casually in chitchat.

    8. Anon for this*

      I have a bearded dragon, my coworkers have a variety of different pets. There’s nothing wrong with having a pet that isn’t a dog or a cat, and I really wish people would drop the notion of “children’s pet” because often those pets do not receive the care or environment that’s best for them. That’s a soapbox I don’t need to climb on right now but if you are willing to give an animal a proper home keep doing what you’re doing and tell anyone you feel like.

      At WORST you might be perceived as having a quirky pet it will not make you look juvenile or unprofessional. Your family has some weird hangups.

    9. lost academic*

      I have a horse. I limit the discussion because people make a LOT of assumptions about people who ride and own horses and none of them apply to me. If I find another horse person it’s different but I try not to go crazy.

      I think it’s unusual to be that attached to a gerbil and because people associate gerbils and hamsters with elementary school classroom pets that’s why it might read weirdly. For some reason I don’t think the same applies to rats – it’s weird, but the attachment reads more weird adult rather then just… weird. But it’s your pet, no one else’s, and it doesn’t matter how they feel. I will say I don’t think I’d discuss the loss of any of my pets (cats over the years) or someday my horse at work because I don’t think it belongs there. I might mention it if I needed PTO or was taking flex time to make arrangements. It’s just not a work topic.

    10. Ama*

      I am so sorry for your loss. I had a wonderful gerbil that was with me from 7th grade until my sophomore year of college so I do not think it is strange at all to be sad about it. Your family seems to be letting their own biases about pets color their advice to you. If you have an unusual pet people may ask more questions because they are curious — I’ve seen this with coworkers who have rats or snakes or a friend I had in grad school who had chinchillas — there are definitely some people who can’t quite wrap their head around the appeal of non dog/cat pets but most people I’ve observed think it is interesting.

    11. Jellyfish*

      It depends on the workplace culture, I think. Some places I’ve worked had zero empathy around animals / pets, and I didn’t offer any information about mine. My current workplace is full of pet people, including many with animals aside from dogs and cats. When a coworker’s uncommon pet recently passed, everyone was sympathetic and understanding.
      I’m so sorry about your gerbil, and I hope you get another if it brings you joy.

    12. BlueWolf*

      Yeah, I agree your family is being weird about it. One of my coworkers had a pet alligator for a while (which incidentally was totally not legal where they lived and it eventually was taken away by animal services). I think a gerbil is way less weird in comparison lol.

      2. KoiFeeder*

        Even if it wasn’t illegal, alligators are kinda up there with green anacondas in that taking care of their needs and habitat is a full-time job and even then most people flat-out don’t have the knowledge and are unwilling to learn how to care for them. I understand the appeal, but I also think your coworker was an idiot.

    13. metadata minion*

      I have extremely weird pets, including tarantulas, and talk about them at work! I do check first to see if someone wants spider stories since they’re such a common phobia, but otherwise I’m perfectly happy to be the Weird Pet Person.

      Gerbils don’t even ping my radar as far as weird pets go. Yes, they’re somewhat seen as kid pets, because they’re relatively easy to care for and don’t take up much space, but I’ve never thought of them as something an adult would never have.

      And I’m so sorry about your gerbil!

    14. JustaTech*

      I’m so sorry for your loss.
      I, personally, wouldn’t find it weird for an adult to have gerbils, because they’re a small pet and people have small homes. If you mention one of your gerbils in passing at work and someone asks “why do you have gerbils” you could answer with something (one thing) that you love about gerbils specifically. If you act like they’re a totally normal pet like a cat then most people will just go along with that.

      (Why is there a pet hierarchy is a long and complex question, but “why are gerbils at the bottom” probably has to do with their comparatively short lifespan and small size. Bigger things are seen as more “adult” for whatever reason. Heck, for a long time cats were seen as “pets for women”, though that’s changing.)

      1. Houndmom*

        Animals of all sorts are conversation starters. I don’t think there is any animal that is too odd to be talked about. In recent calls, the conversations have been about pet tortoises, rabbits, snakes and other reptiles as well as cats and dogs.

        I am sorry for your loss — any loved pet that passes hurts.

    15. Student*

      I don’t currently have weird pets, but I’ve had insect pets in the past. I’ll happily talk about them at work if it comes up. I’ve raised “nice” bugs like butterflies, “scary” bugs like praying mantises, and a couple more run-of-the-mill bugs. I worked for a while with people who kept hobby farms with unusual pets like goats, too.

      I don’t go out of my way to bring it up, mainly because they are ex-pets. If I was raising a praying mantis right now, I’d definitely try to show it off to some of my co-workers, though.

      Part of talking about unusual pets is knowing your audience. Pets (even the “normal” ones, like cats and dogs) are actually very polarizing. Some people will want to hear all about your pet, while others will be bored, and a few people will just react very poorly and disproportionately. With gerbils, I’m sorry to say that you will always be at risk of getting the anti-rodent reaction. If you introduce your pets in a decent way, any anti-rodent reactions should be mild and should die off very quickly, so it’s some temporary discomfort to find your fellow rodent-lovers.

      I suggest you start with a cute anecdote about the gerbil, instead of jumping straight to sharing pictures and videos – maybe some especially cute or clever thing he did, or how happy you are that you found a toy he likes. Something that’s short and sweet. If the listener responds positively, then you know you can talk to them more about your gerbil on occasion, show pictures, etc. If the listener responds badly or doesn’t demonstrate positive interest through asking about the gerbil, then mark them in the “not-gerbil-friend” category and don’t press it further.

      As for why there is a pet hierarchy and “kid” pets: Some pets have a much more nuanced ability to interact with humans than others. Pets high in the hierarchy are pets that interact with us more often and on a deeper level – these are pets that are also friends. As most people get older, they stay enamored with pets that can interact on a simple friendship level with them. Pets like gerbils, reptiles, etc. can still be fun and interesting, but they don’t form the same level of bond with their human (which is separate from the bond a human may feel to the gerbil; I’m sure you love your departed gerbil very deeply) and they just don’t have the ability to understand us as well. They can’t interpret our human gestures, tones of voices, etc. the way that dogs or cats or similar pets can. Lots of people like that reciprocated level of understanding more as adults, and start to find pets that can’t do this to be less interesting. Kids are more likely to overlook a pet not finding them as interesting as they find the pet.

      As most people grow older, they also tend to grow greater appreciation for the “normal” pet’s greater independence. Cats and dogs still depend on us, but they can mostly avoid accidents around a house when unsupervised, can be left alone for decent lengths of time with only modest pet-sitting arrangements, can play with similarly-sized household pets. Gerbils, if let out of their cage in a normal human home, would be at risk of getting hurt in a lot of ways and would probably be quite unhappy. The lower level of constant care required frees you up for more adult responsibilities and social events. Kids can often shirk their pet responsibilities and count on a responsible parent step in to keep the pet happy.

      All of these guidelines seem to get thrown out the window, though, if the adult can signal “conspicuous consumption” by having a weird-but-very-expensive pet. Fancy aquariums, “exotic” pets, horses, etc. that cost a lot of money still get treated better than pets like your gerbils, precisely because they let their owners show off their money to others. Kids are mostly too busy having fun with pets to worry about what the pet signals to others about their social status, so they do this much less than adults do (thank goodness).

    16. RagingADHD*

      Your family is incorrect. People might have a reaction to a pet that a lot of people have phobias about, like snakes, spiders, or rats. But even that isn’t like judging so much as just a visceral reaction to the pet itself.

      Nobody is going to judge you for having gerbils.

    17. AnonyMouse*

      I think every pet is fine to talk about in moderation at work – and honestly same with any topic at work. We all have those coworkers who go on and on about something, whether it’s their horse or their car or their baby, but I can’t see why talking about your gerbil sometimes would be any different than mentioning a beloved dog or cat.

  31. Accounting Otaku*

    Back at the end of 2020 I caught covid just as the vaccines were rolling out in my area and two weeks into a new job. My employer handled it well. I “worked” through it. I basically logged in remotely and waited for little things to be assigned to me to do. Before this job and before I had covid, I was considered a high performing rockstar of an employee. I was praised for my attention to detail and thoroughness. Now, I’m struggling to catch details that I would have caught near instantly beforehand. Things that were previously easy for me feel like a struggle to do. Aspects of my job that I love to do are now a chore to initiate. I still love doing them, I’m just not able to jump on doing them like I did before. Where I used to be able to anticipate questions and have answers ready, I’m now drawing blanks when questions get raised and have to get back with answers. I feel like I’m constantly operating at 70-80% of what I used to be able to do. It’s very frustrating to look at my work and know I can and have done better.

    The kicker: My boss has very few issues with my work. This has only caused a problem with him twice in the almost two years I’ve been here. My predecessor was so horrible and knocked the bar so low that my impaired state still impresses my boss and coworkers. I’ve checked with my coworker who has her ear to everything and no one has had any complaints about my work. My performance review was at “Meets Expectations Upper” which is just under exceeding expectations. So, my question is how do you readjust your standards after a health issue has permanently impacted your work?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Wow that sounds rough I’m so sorry. I have a disability that’s gotten worse over the last few years and chronic pain has absolutely impacted my work. For what it’s worth, you sound way more self aware about how long covid (I assume? Have you had that diagnosed?) is impacting you than I ever was.

      First, if you haven’t already I’d speak with a doctor. This is something that we’re understanding more and more every day as more people are dealing with it and they might have some advice.

      Second, I’d stop comparing yourself to your old self and try to get a grasp on where you are now. It’s possible that you’ll shake this off and be back to your old abilities at some point, but that may not happen and you have to deal with what’s in front of you. So instead of 70% of what you used to be able to do, what does 100% for right now look like? Do you need more time to go over things? A few reads to catch details instead of expecting them to jump out of you? How does task initiation look for you now? Where are you getting held up? Do you need to keep better, more organized notes so that you can access information quickly when you need to instead of expecting yourself to recall off the top of your head?

      This sound super hard and I feel for you. Be kind to yourself. Stop comparing. Let go and deal with what’s real in the moment.

      1. Accounting Otaku*

        I tested positive for Covid. For the longest time, I thought these problems were depression related, but getting that under control and these problems still being around ruled that out.

    2. Sherm*

      Would it be possible to re-frame in your mind how you’re operating, from “I was at 100%, and now I am at 70-80%”, to “I was at 120%, and now I am at 100%”? Perhaps in the past you were doing a little too much, not that there’s anything wrong with hard work, but you get into diminishing returns, where the extra effort you expend doesn’t pay off too much.

  32. Sarah*

    Are adults…supposed to dislike their jobs? I recently started my first full-time, grown-up job, and I’ve tried really hard to like it, but I just dread it each day. It’s very detailed administrative work in higher ed–we had straight training for a month, but the unofficial training period seems last a few months after that. It feels like an overwhelming amount of work, and new admins are expected to get things wrong every day.

    This is also my first remote job, so that might be part of it. But I’ve never disliked any job I had before this one. Is full-time work just supposed to be draining?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Is full-time work just supposed to be draining?

      No, it’s not — at least, not all the time. BUT it’s possible that this is just an adjustment period – it can take 3-6 months to really feel comfortable in a new job. If it’s not totally unbearable, I would give it more time.

      That said, it could also be a signal that there is something about this job that isn’t a good fit for you long-term. Maybe you prefer the socialization of an office. Maybe their expectations are off. Maybe there’s something else about it. I would give it time but pay attention to what exactly you don’t like.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      No, this sounds rough. It’s possible that if you give it time it will be easier, but I’d think about a few things. Is remote work the right fit for you? When you’re dreading work, what are you dreading in particular? Is it making mistakes? Is it the task you have to do themselves? Is it not knowing what you’re doing?

      This sounds like it may just be a bad fit for you, but if you figure out why that might help you decide what to do about it and what your next steps look like.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      No, dreading your job every day is not usual. Not being in LUUUURRRVVVEE with your job is usual, but dreading it? No. It sounds like you might not be a good match for this particular job. Think about why that is — what is it you dread exactly? Then look for jobs that don’t have that.

    4. PollyQ*

      No, you shouldn’t absolutely dread it, but you do sort of need to build up “stamina” for a full-time job if you haven’t done it before, or haven’t done it for a while. Yes, even if it’s a desk job and not particularly physical. Also, the first 6 months of a job are often challenging intellectually and emotionally because of all the new information & tasks that are coming at you constantly.

      My recommendation is that you stick with it for about 6 months and then re-evaluate. It’s entirely possible that this isn’t the job for you, but it may just be typical new job learning curve.

    5. Asenath*

      You shouldn’t dislike it excessively. It’s not unusual to have some aspects of your job that you dislike, but if you dread the very thought of the job as a whole, it’s time to move on. I’d give it a good try, though – longer than a few months. Some admin jobs can take a long time to learn because the tasks are complex, and some of them don’t come up very often, so just when you think you know the job, you discover that you have some new task that had only been mentioned in passing. I’d look at ways to deal with feeling drained too – all the usual stuff, eating well, resting, exercising, doing things that interest you after work.

      After you’ve given it an honest try, maybe even a year, although a lot will depend on the specific situation, if you still hate it and dread it, move on. I once had a job I hated which I held on to desperately (because I needed the income) while floundering around trying to find something else, and I did it far too long. In retrospect, I knew after a year, two at the most, that I was never going to be even moderately contented in that job, and I hung on too long.

    6. TopHatCat*

      I remember when I got my first full-time, 40 hrs week job, I felt pretty overwhelmed for a few months. Physically I had to adjust to being in an office for 8 (really 9) hours a day, and having a commute. Previously I had worked a lot of part-time positions with very flexible hours, so it was a big adjustment to having a set 40 hrs a week schedule. I was super tired most of the time until I finally got used to it.

      Also, I’ve worked in higher ed my whole career, and it can definitely be exhausting even if you are used to full time work. We are always understaffed and have to wear many hats. I’m sure it will feel draining for a while, but eventually you will get used to it. If you have a good team and good bosses, that makes the difference. If you do not….then it will still probably feel draining after a year or more, and at that point, I would consider switching to another department on campus.

    7. Irish Teacher*

      No, adults are not supposed to dislike their jobs. I would say if anything, the opposite is true, that full-time career work should be LESS draining than part-time college work, because you are more likely to be doing something that you have chosen and are engaged with.

      That said, how long have you been at the job? If it’s just a few weeks or even a couple of months, it MAY be just that you are getting used to a new job, new place, etc. It’s HARD going in somewhere new and if you’ve just started and don’t have any friends there and you’re still learning how to do the work, it’s going to be more difficult than it will be once you’ve gotten used to it.

      But if it continues and doesn’t get any better, then it might be a sign this is not the right job for you and that you should start looking for something else. The first principal I worked under put it this way to me, that lots of teachers have difficulties when they are new to a school, but that if it continues, his advice is to get out of teaching because you don’t want to be 40 and still dreading going to work each day. I think it applies to all careers.

      Most people have tough days in their job and it’s a minority of people who actually look forward to going to work each day, but…I think you should be feeling at least neutral about it most of the time, possibly dreading a major deadline or a particular task but also looking forward to certain aspects. And I would say generally, you should be MORE positive about a long-term job than you were about the ones you had previously. Otherwise what was the point of working towards this, if you were happier in positions that required less?

    8. Ama*

      It’s definitely not normal to actively dread going to work every day. You don’t have to be super happy to go to work, but if it’s more than just “ugh I hate getting up in the morning” or “ugh I have to do that one task today and I hate that specific task” I second the commenters who are suggesting you think about what specifically is the issue.

      It could just be that the long training period is what’s draining, in which case things should get better as you move out of that period. It could be that there’s something very specific about the job or the work you don’t like, in which case it would be worth some thinking about whether that’s an inherent part of the job and you would be better suited for a different job that doesn’t involve that kind of work, or if it’s a small part of the job you can tolerate for the parts you like better.

    9. Person from the Resume*

      If you actively dislike your job, it’s probably not the right one for you. If you dread your job, it’s not the right one for you. However training (a month of training egads!) / remote training can be very draining. A new job is draining for the first few months. Transitioning to full time work – ie 9 hours a day at a desk – is very exhausting. You might just be at the perfect storm of exhausting change, and once you settle in and get used to the duties and the hours and working from home it will be okay.

      I’d actually recommend you give it enough time to be trained and settle into the role. Seriously settling into a job or new hours can take months. That will allow you to determine what if anything about it is a particularly bad fit. If it’s the 40 hour work week, well, that’ll be present in all FT jobs and you may have to tough it out. Start getting more sleep on week nights. But if it’s something else, WFH or role or job duties, you can start looking for something that doesn’t have that characteristic and owuld be a better fit.

      Basically, though, I am never excited about work. I would always prefer to be doing something different (that doesn’t pay any money). I picked my own hours, and it always starts too early because I don’t want to work later than I do. But I wouldn’t say I dread it. There are a fair number of days, though, where I’m too tired to do much besides have dinner and watch TV or read.

    10. allathian*

      No, full-time work isn’t supposed to be draining. But you’re still learning your new job, and for some jobs it can take a lot longer than a few months until you’re fully up to speed. Just transitioning from college/part time work to full-time work takes some time as well.

      If you’re an extrovert who finds spending time with other people energizing, remote work can be more draining than work at the office would be. Starting a new remote job can also be draining in and of itself, if you have to make a conscious effort to get to know your coworkers.

    11. NotARacoonKeeper*

      Learning on the job can be really draining, because doing stuff wrong feels a lot like failing (especially when we’re just finishing university and conditioned for 16+ years to our value (grades) being equal to how often we get stuff right). I also work in higher-ed, and the learning curve for my job was long and awful – I felt like an idiot for a full year.

      Full time work is also a huge adjustment from the flexibility of undergrad, and having 15-20 hours a week of scheduled time. I’m in my mid-30s and still resent the lack of flexibility, and my job is very flexible.

      This doesn’t mean the job isn’t a bad fit, but it might be worth toughing out for a while to figure out what the rub here is!

  33. Hope Me, Baby*

    I’m feeling so defeated. I was so excited, I finally was eligible for a GS-12 position at the government! And then I was told a few veterans applied so I was out of the running (which I totally get based off government roles.) And then I applied for a manager position that I thought I would be qualified for, and then got rejected as well. I interviewed for my old position (I was invited to do so) but then my old managers said (kindly) that this position might be too entry level for me now and I should keep looking. I feel stuck. It feels like nothing is working out and I’m at a dead end, even with the language going around that everyone is hiring. I’m not qualified enough for something higher and maybe too qualified now for those entry level positions (and for once, I feel ready for leadership roles.) I feel like my only option is to open my own business to change out of my current contractor role, but I don’t want to do that. How are others job searching going right now? Any hope is appreciated.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      How many jobs have you applied for? You mention three in your question but it’s not clear to me if those are the only three you applied for, or if they’re just the three that seemed the most likely to pan out.

      When I was job searching, my goal was to apply to 2 jobs every week. I had a job at the time, so I could afford a search with less urgency, and I found setting my goal on something I was in direct control of (applications sent out per week) was sanity-saving. Setting a goal of “accept offer for new job,” would have demoralized my as each week came and went without a job offer.

    2. I'm Done*

      Keep applying. I left federal service and went to private industry for 12 years. When I decided to go back into federal service, I sent out over 400 applications before I finally got picked up. Not sure what your flexibility is in terms of location but obviously being able to relocate will offer more opportunities.

    3. Anono-me*

      If you want a management type US Fed government job; the USPS is very aggressively hiring for entry level supervisor positions. (I’ve had 3 requests.) The USPS jobs are apparently USA Fed. Gov. jobs but different.

  34. Temporary Blues*

    In 2017, my mediocre boss got a new job, and we got a “temporary” manager for my small department. She was our manager for almost three years, and we’ve now had another manager for almost two years. It has been five years as of last weekend since my regular manager left. Due to working for government, budgets, and the pandemic, the position wasn’t really opened for hiring until this past May. Would it be unreasonable for me to ask our new HR liason for a timeline? To add to the frustration, I’ve been in a “temporary assignment” for two years now due to the pandemic and have to navigate having my temporary manager and you guessed it, another temporary manager at the same time. I’m not happy in my current temporary assignment, and my current management situation is compounding it.

  35. HIPAA-Potamus*

    Just venting about the internal, political drama I have to deal with on a daily basis. Anyone in healthcare but non-clinical and therefore the last to be respected?

  36. Anon for this*

    Y’all I’m really struggling. I need to anonymize this as much as possible but I hope the points get through.

    One of the leaders of my company is very sick. The staff knows in broad strokes, but they’re going to find out how bad it is soon. I am in a leadership support position and am struggling.

    I can take on tasks I can do extra work I am more than happy to step up. But there are two problems. One, other people in leadership roles are not stepping up, and seem insulted by the insinuation they should, so a lot is falling on big boss and me and it’s not sustainable. Two, employee support is under my purview and I’m very good at it. But this situation feels over my head and I am having a lot of personal emotions that make me worried I am not going to be able to be the safe port in the storm if people need one. We’re small and this is a big upheaval, and the staff is close.

    This already feels too specific so I’m not going to add details unless they seem necessary I hope this is buried. Any advice for getting my head around how to handle all this?

    1. Cocafonix*

      Start by getting very clear on what you are capable of doing. Prioritize your core responsibilities and those immediately adjacent. It’s frustrating but you must ignore what other leadership will or will not step up for. It’s a lesson in futility if you have no power to influence it. Lay out your plan for your boss – “My plan is to focus on my job plus X and Y. I realize there is also Z, A and B, but unfortunately I don’t have bandwidth for those. Do you have a different view of my priorities?”Come prepared with a couple of options: Eg Employee support is essential but W part of job could be delegated or delayed by weeks, then I could pick up A if you prefer.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I’m not Lady_Lessa but I imagine she was responding to this part of your question:

          I am having a lot of personal emotions that make me worried I am not going to be able to be the safe port in the storm if people need one. We’re small and this is a big upheaval, and the staff is close.

          You need someone to talk to about your personal emotions. Someone who is not related to work, so perhaps a close friend or family member, a therapist, or a priest/pastor/other religious leader who could give support and guidance if you belong to a religion.

        2. Lady_Lessa*

          A priest in the confessional. I know that other pastors and others may also be expected to keep confidences and may be able to help.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Confession is a sacramental ritual tied to the absolution of sin. It’s not the same as counseling.

            However, if the OP is a parishioner, they can make an appointment to talk to their priest in private about a personal matter. Or their specific clergy, if they’re not Catholic.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      Sounds like you may be supporting the sick leader, but even if you are not their direct support, take care of yourself. Echoing the suggestion to find someone to talk to about what you’re feeling about this situation although my recommendation is friends or therapist.

      Reject the extra tasks and work you cannot support. Don’t help until you’re burned out. Stopping before you’re burned out helps more and everyone in the end.

      Employee support doesn’t mean you serve as their therapist or conselor. If people are talking through their emotions / emotional reactions with you and you can’t handle it, you need to stop them. “I’m sorry. It’s too upsetting to me to talk about it with you.” “I understand you’re upset, but I am too and can’t be your sounding board.”

      1. Despachito*

        “Reject the extra tasks and work you cannot support. Don’t help until you’re burned out. Stopping before you’re burned out helps more and everyone in the end.” This is very wise advice.

        Please take care of yourself. There is only so much you can do, and it is absolutely not your obligation to be a “safe port in storm”. Please do a “reality check” with a therapist, or with a good friend. Don’t tackle this alone because from what you write you may be prone to fall for the fallacy that you alone must do everything. This is definitely not so, please don’t take more than you can handle – you would destroy yourself and help no one.

    4. Anonosaurus*

      I’m sorry this is happening.

      I think if I were you my priority would be to find someone trustworthy outside the company who can support you and be a sounding board etc. Ideally a therapist or similar professional but if not, someone with experience of mentoring and coaching. Your emotions are valid and you don’t need to deny or suppress them but it also sounds like you are aware that your emotional reaction is going to impact upon your ability to execute your role. This may be an unfounded fear but I think of you can get on top of this, that will give you headspace to figure out the rest of it.

    5. Observer*

      In addition to the good advice you are getting – get some help in. I mean work related help. There are probably things that someone else can do, so figure out what those things are and get someone to do them. Even if it means hiring someone for that purpose.

  38. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Advice requested on renegotiating contractor rates (as a contract worker).

    I’m teaching some corporate yoga classes via a subcontract (Companies contact with Aggregating Company, who then subcontracts to teachers). When I started, I gave them my rate for gym/studios, which I’m realizing is waaaay too low. My idea is to keep my notice to a minimum and say, “I’m revising my corporate rates, as I haven’t refreshed them in over two years. Here are my new rates.”

    The tricky thing is that my new rates are almost triple (based on what I’ve seen online as the low end of what corporate classes should cost). I don’t need these contracts, as I have a day job, but I am hoping to transition more fully into teaching, so this has been an important set of opportunities.

    Any advice or perspective?

    1. Riot Grrrl*

      As someone who works with a lot of freelancers, the important factors I look for are, in order:

      * reliability
      * reliability
      * reliability
      * professionalism
      * good communication
      * budget
      * quality production
      * personal agreeableness

      Notice how far down that list budget is. Obviously I can’t speak for everyone who hires freelancers, but I think you’d be surprised how much leeway you have if you are a reliable, professional service provider. Soooooo many flakes out there.

      My first thought was why stay at the low end if these contracts are not necessary? Why not shoot for mid-range or higher? You will lose some business, but anyone who remains will be paying you more. Rule of thumb: if you receive every job you bid for, your rates are too low.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        Assuming you meet the things before budget on Riot Grrrl’s list, I agree to shoot for higher than low-end. Have you considered phasing the rate increase in? Like, this year, put in your rate increase to low-end, then each year raise it more than inflation so in about three years you’re at mid-range. People expect to see annual rate increases. When you see that you aren’t losing contracts you want, continue the increases toward the high end.

    2. Westsidestory*

      Raise your rates. If you get pushback, tell them you are open to discuss. But have in the back of your mind what your bottom figure would be, and don’t go below that. Tripling your rates immediately may come as a surprise to them. Make sure first your new rate is equal to the high end of a subcontractor. Your contractor will be adding their percentage to the client, so make sure your new rate will make sense to them.

  39. Other Alice*

    Greetings from (overly) sunny Europe, where people take loooong summer vacations. Most of my coworkers and clients are already gone, and I expect the next two weeks it will be even more of a desert. Due to personal reasons I can only take a week in September and I’ll have to use that to move house. Suggestions for staying on track and not losing my mind from boredom? A lot of my work is projects for clients and I’ve already done most of what I can do without feedback. I’ll probably use a couple of days to do an online training my boss recommended. What else?

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Some ideas off the top of my head:

      – Create training for a hypothetical intern
      – Identify new projects to take on
      – Contact other people in your company for informational 1:1s or job shadowing
      – Find out if you can get involved in any mentoring inside or outside your company
      – Find out if you can get involved in any clubs or groups at your company

    2. lost academic*

      Prep for whoever’s covering for you, and try and do as much moving prep as you can squeeze in since it’s slow. Set up your post move planning for what’s going to get done when.

    3. Jora Malli*

      How are your office software skills? Can you spend some of that time taking a work-at-your-own-pace style course on Excel or another software product that could come in handy at your job?

    4. allathian*

      Take whatever online training you can do on the job, and however much you can fit in your schedule without being overloaded.

      Do you have any important but not urgent tasks on your to-do list that always get pushed back when you’re so busy you don’t have time for anything but the most urgent things?

  40. ferrina*

    What’s your best tip for using Outlook and Teams?

    I’ve got a new employee who is using Outlook/Teams for the first time. I want to share with them some of the ways to make Outlook/Teams really useful. I’ve been using it for years, so while I’m trying, some things I’m doing instinctually and forgetting to teach them (we’re remote). I want to put together a list to help them. What do I need to include?

    1. Rebecca D.*

      I didn’t know about scheduling assistant when setting up meetings for AGES, helped me a ton.
      Position specific tips on how you like to organize/file your emails
      Screen sharing on teams, how to record trainings/meetings, how to set up ‘teams’ within teams for easy chats on projects/file sharing.
      Setting up signatures, scheduling to send emails..

      1. ferrina*

        Thanks! This is great. Totally agree on the scheduling assistant- I schedule a ton of meetings, and the scheduling assistant is critical

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Outlook ideas:
      How to move the calender (import/export) to google calendar and vice versa.
      Viewing shared calendars
      Sending/Accepting calendar invites
      Filters on incoming emails (“alerts and rules”)
      How to handle its search function being less than gmail (“From: Ruth & Subject: Form” outlook vs “Ruth Form” in gmail)
      Setting up RSS feeds in outlook
      Connecting zoom/teams etc to outlook, add ons
      Flags/Tasks
      Depending on their role, the mass email form letter options in outlook are kinda neat, can do the excel list of names becomes personalized mass emails “outlook forms”

        1. DisneyChannelThis*

          So RSS feeds I use a lot are for articles, a subfolder in outlook updates anytime they push new articles out. Scientific journal articles. There are RSS feeds for webpages too, where you can get an email basically with whatever is the new content, who published it, and when. If you need to track business developments that can be useful too. Some people just use them for fun too, but hopefully not in their work emails! The orange icon at the top of this page for instance, would let you setup one for Askamanager.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      The most important for Outlook is the search function! For Teams, I think the top 3 are: search, pinning conversation threads, and creating/being part of a “team” in Teams.

    4. ZSD*

      How to attach files to a chat in Teams
      How to share different levels of information when you share an Outlook calendar (all the details vs. just “busy”)
      “Show As –> Free” for calendar items

      1. ferrina*

        YES for the show as Free. My company sends out PTO as a calendar invite, and when someone else’s PTO marks my calendar as busy it drives me nuts!

    5. Ruby314722*

      I’m assuming that if you have Teams and Outlook you also have OneNote. I really hate organizing my tasks in Outlook the way it seems so many other people seem to do, so I create OneNote “notebooks” and can send important emails directly from Outlook to the relevant notebook and it carries over the attachments as well as the email details. I get so many emails related to a single project that just aren’t relevant to what I’m actually working on or need to do that I just send the ones useful to me to the notebook and everything is grouped together for me.

    6. Chickaletta*

      All of these, plus creating “categroies” for emails and then sorting your inbox by category. Outlook automatically puts all the new emails and anything uncategorized at the top, so I can still see what’s new or what I haven’t categorized. Makes it really easy to see everything related to one type of project, types of “to do” tasks, or however it makes sense to group your emails for your job.

    7. Alexis Rosay*

      Learning how both Outlook & Teams integrate with Microsoft To Do has been super helpful for me to manage my task list. I love being able mark an email as a To Do using a flag and also import a specific chat message directly into To Do.

    8. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      You can create a rule to filter incoming meeting invitations, and another to filter RSVPs to the invitations you sent.

    9. Tabby Baltimore*

      Show how to put emails received from specific persons or groups in a different color or font. For example, I make all my boss’s emails show up in red, so I know to read them first, and can find them later easily.
      Also, consider showing your employee how to add/subtract those named column tiles at the top of the inbox. They should know they can have more (or fewer) tiles than just From, Subject, Size, the paperclip icon, Received, the flag icon, etc.
      This leads to the last suggestion of learning how to alphabetize the inbox quickly by left-clicking on an email line (w/o opening it) and then immediately left-clicking on the From tile.

  41. Effed Up*

    How do people handle their own mistakes, take ownership, sincerely apologize and then … know when/how to let go of the personal shame? What’s healthy?

    When the thing is actually a big deal but not like a “get fired” or “go to jail” level. A disappointed myself and others thing.

    1. FalsePositive*

      When I start to spiral on it, I remind myself of “the facts” — yes, it went awry, but you apologized, etc. It’s fine. Make myself think on a new topic.

      Also remind myself, it gets annoying when someone beats themselves up too much over something. Sure, sometimes you can turn it into a joke or comfort someone else’s mistake (don’t worry Fergus, I did something similar last month!), but if it’s just bashing yourself, it makes other people uncomfortable.

      And if you made a mistake and handled it and the company handled it well, you’ve done a service for everything. Maybe there’s a new process/audit/check they need. Also, your other coworkers have a little more trust that if they goof up in a similar manner, it’s safe to come forward and there won’t be a disproportionate response.

    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      This can be hard for perfectionists, but it is very important to remind yourself that everybody makes mistakes. You may feel that you should be an exception to that rule and it can be hard to let go of that thought, but you have to try because otherwise mistakes can become immobilizing.

      It’s also okay to kick yourself over some of the big ones; there are 2 or 3 things in my career that I still feel bad about from time to time, or at least ones that stuck with me. The key is that it should be a handful of things rather than an itemized list of every mistake that you carry with you all the time. You have to let the small stuff go. And depending on the mistake’s severity, for so many jobs the most important thing is acknowledging the mistake and moving forward to fix it or avoid next time. The more upfront you are about that, the less the mistake itself is how people remember the day. Then people think of you as “Hey Effed Up fixed that really quickly” or “I’m so glad Effed Up spoke up before that situation got worse” instead of “I can’t believe they tried to sneak that by.”

      And let it be a reminder to be more careful with task next time, or whatever the thing is. Sometimes those big oh-shit moments that stay with you for years can be for a productive reason.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Taking ownership and apologizing are the simpler steps. Identify the affected people and say “I made [mistake] on the project, and as a result [the product launch will be delayed/I need you to change XYZ/etc]. I’m sorry about this and I’ll do my best not to let it happen again.”

      To let go of the personal shame: if it’s a big enough emotional deal to me, I’ll process my emotions outside of work. Depending on the situation, “emotional processing” could look like: vigorous exercise, a good cry, writing my mistake on a piece of paper and burning it. I find a ritual of some sort helps. Don’t just go on a run. Tell yourself “I am going on a run in order to process my feelings about the mistake I made at work today.” Then feel how you feel, and run as fast as you need to for the duration of the run. After the run, if you tend to ruminate on the mistake, remind yourself “I already went on a run. I can move on from this.”

      1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

        I’ve never considered linking the “letting go” to a discrete task. What a gift, thank you!

        1. NotARacoonKeeper*

          If you want to learn more about this, there’s a book called Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle, by Emily Nagoski, Ph.D. and Amelia Nagoski, D.M.A that goes into the science and practice of this process. They also have a great podcast if you prefer listening!

    4. Alice Quinn*

      This can be really tough, especially if you’re conscientious about your work. I would say a good action step to help overcome it is to look at the root cause of the issue and identify how and why it went wrong and come up with a solid plan to prevent it from happening again. I know as a manager, this is the approach I want to see my employees take, and it’s a much more productive way of dealing with mistakes than the blame and shame game. You’ll get through this!

    5. Chickaletta*

      You just own up to it and then move on (and hopefully figure out a way to prevent that kind of thing from happening again and follow through). Something to remember: owning up to one’s mistakes is a sign of intelligence and signals to other people that you have self-awareness. Also, we’re human! Everyone makes mistakes and other people will relate more than you think they will. If they’re a jerk and hold a grudge, don’t accept your apology, or make it into an even bigger deal, then that’s a reflection of them, not you, and there’s nothing you can do about that other than just let them be themselves.

    6. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

      Sometimes for me the only thing that helps is to zoom way out and remind myself that no matter how big it feels now, in 500 years nobody will care. Bonus points if you can do this while looking at a starry sky and feeling blissfully insignificant.

  42. Alex*

    I may be quitting my job soon in order to pursue another opportunity. Because of some reasons I won’t go into here, I need to take time in between when I end this job and start the next. It just so happens that I have just about the same amount of vacation time saved up that I would need to take off.

    Would it be totally unreasonable for me to ask to ride out my remaining vacation time while on payroll instead of getting it paid out? That way I could keep my health insurance and not need to deal with COBRA, and the tax situation would be simpler (I assume I need to pay taxes on the vacay payout, but will be overtaxed on it because it would be paid out in a lump sum). I realize that this doesn’t really benefit them, only me, and it would be them doing me a favor as I am out the door, but I hope to be able to give at least three if not four weeks notice (when 2 weeks would be normal for my role). I could also come back after the “vacation” time if they wanted, for just 1-2 weeks, although I’m not sure how helpful that would be to them. I would also be happy to be on call for questions and such during the vacation period.

    Am I totally out of my mind for thinking about asking for this? I don’t want to be unreasonable, but it would just make things SO much easier for me.

    1. PollyQ*

      The more common way to handle this is to give the longer notice, but let your boss know you’re going to book your vacation time, then tack the 2 weeks notice on to the end of it. And actually, I think your employer would be perfectly happy with this. It effectively gives them more time to prep and see what holes will need to be filled after you’re gone, then provides them with a couple of week to pick your brain.

      1. Alex*

        With a normal amount of vacation time, I would do this, but this is an amount of vacation time that is beyond what is usually allowed at once (about two months).

        1. PollyQ*

          Hmmm, yeah that’s less likely to be workable. In that case, I’d say it’s worth asking if you can do a longer notice and then stay on payroll while you use up your vacation. If that doesn’t work, though, there is a cool little loophole with COBRA coverage, which is that you can sign up for it retroactively, at least for a couple of months, even after you’ve incurred a medical expense.

    2. BRR*

      I think it’s ok to ask but plan on them saying no. If it’s helpful information for your situation, remember that you have a window of time to enroll in cobra.

    3. Academic Fibro Warrior*

      I did this when I transitioned from OldJob to graduate school because it wasn’t clear when my old insurance would end and new one would start and I can’t afford to be without. Nor did I have the extra money for even a month of Cobra. I explained it to my boss when we did the monthly time sheet for PTO sick etc and it wasn’t a problem. Of course I had a month of vacation and only needed 2 weeks so I still had the higher taxes on the last check since it was a bigger check but it was taxed at regular pay rates rather than the rate of *bonuses* they gave us during the great recession in lieu of raises. So yes it can be done but in case I got a *we’ve never done this before so we can’t possibly do it ever* that org liked to do to avoid following their own policies and obligations from payroll I had my case for it written out.

    4. HahaLala*

      Not unreasonable to ask, but also not unreasonable for the company to decline. It really depends on company policies. I’m no tax expert, but I’d think the tax rate would be the same for your pay, whether it’s a lump sum or weekly. (Also, are you sure you’ll get your PTO paid out? Not every state requires it, and not every company will do it.)

      I just recently switched jobs, and I took about month off in between, mostly so I could start right after previously planned travel. My PTO was not paid out (not required in my state, and no company policy stating they would), so I made sure to take as much as I could before I resigned. My old health insurance ended on my last day at old job, and at my new job, my coverage started on my first day. There’s a decently long window to enact Cobra (30+ days?), so my plan was to enact COBRA retroactively if needed (and if itwould have been cheaper for paying out of pocket). Luckily I didn’t need to.

      Double check your current (and new) insurance policies– your current policy might cover you until the end of the calendar month of your last day, but your new plan might not start for 30 days after your first day…

      1. Alex*

        Yes, the tax rate is the same, but they would originally take a lot more out if they gave it to me in a lump sum, because of the way payroll works. It assumes that whatever you are getting paid that pay period is what you will *always* get paid. At least that has been my experience with bonuses, extra pay, etc. And given that I need that money to live on during my time without an income, I’d rather have more of it than less of it! I’m also 100% sure that I’d get my vacay paid out, both because company policy includes that and I live in a state where it is required. However, I also continue to accumulate vacation days while on vacation, so I would also have MORE vacation days coming to me if I stayed on payroll. I work for a very large company where these policies are all very clearly laid out.

        The time in between when I’d be ending my current employment and when I would start my new employment is at least 14 weeks, so way past any grace period from my current job or with COBRA.

  43. SunriseRuby*

    I’m a disgruntled employee in a call center for a leave of absence management company. For the love of bean sprouts, people, if you ever need to contact a call center for any reason, DON’T USE SPEAKERPHONE. Thank you.

    1. just passing through*

      Could you explain why? (This is not something I would have guessed was a no-no and probably something I’ve done–so I wish I’d known this!) Is it because the caller is difficult to hear, or because you get to hear unwanted other conversations, or what?

      1. SunriseRuby*

        Yes, speaker phone sort of thins out the audio, making it hard for the person on the other end to hear. The caller sounds fainter or further away (and probably because they’re moving around the room, thinking the speaker phone is doing an adequate job of picking up their voice. It’s not.) I figured that would have been evident from the plea, but I guess I was wrong, so thank you for asking for clarification!

        1. Paris Geller*

          Not the person who originally asked this question, but thanks for explaining! Do you have the same problem if someone’s on speakerphone if they’re not moving around? asking because unfortunately when I call a call center (or anyone, really) I almost always have to put the phone on speakerphone–I find it very difficult to hear the person on the other line otherwise. I speak into the phone normally, however, and don’t wander away.

          1. Observer*

            I also often wind up putting people on speakerphone because I often need to find information or need to take notes, and it’s hard to do that when I’m actually holding the phone. So, if staying put near the phone helps, I’d love to know that.

          2. Jora Malli*

            Are you able to use earbuds at all? I also struggle a lot to understand people on speaker, but by sibling has wireless earbuds with a microphone and I don’t have any of those speakerphone issues when I talk with them.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        Probably because people in a call center are surrounded by other people on calls so unless your mic is awesome, which speakerphone is generally not, you’re making it really hard for the person to hear – even if the call center person is on a really good headset.

        1. pandq*

          I put it on speakerphone so much – so this is good info for me! I’ll take it off speakerphone as soon as I’m connected from now on. I’m not into making people’s jobs harder. :)

          1. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

            Same here. Lately I’ve had upwards of 20 minutes on hold before actually talking to a human, so I have to put it on speakerphone just so I can get on with my life while I wait. Like the other commenter, I do then go speak directly to the phone while it’s still on speakerphone, but in the future I’ll definitely ask if they’d like me to switch over.

  44. I am the one who eats crackers*

    My team has recently got some new members. I feel like all the new people interrupt, are long winded, use the wrong words for things, and are trying to take over and change processes without taking even a few weeks to learn how and why they ended up that way (over the course of a few years). It’s posssible that last is a mandate from their own managers.
    I feel like my entire team is in BEC mode for me. That probably means I am just burnt out.

    1. Juneybug*

      It could be a mandate from their boss. In my situation, I was hired to “fix” a state governement reception front desk (establish or improve processes, change culture, etc). My new boss was super excited to have my skill sets on the front desk (it was mess – think post it notes for the few processes in place, ignoring customers, gossipying all day, etc.). However, she forgot to tell my co-worker who had this job for two decades. Who wanted her friend hired so was still salty about my hire. Who was 20 years older than me so she didn’t want to listen to a youngster (I was 40 yrs). Who had never been discplined for her bad behavior. It was a mess!!
      You might want to talk to their boss about their goals for the training. Good luck!!

      1. I am the one who eats crackers*

        I asked my own boss who at least explained the reasoning for the quick ramp up: multiple people going to be out on leave very soon, so the new hires need to jump right in even though they don’t know what’s going on yet.

  45. Mimmy*

    Zoom interviews – what to wear?

    Next Tuesday, I have not one but TWO job interviews over Zoom (*happy dance*). My question: Must I wear a suit (do people even wear suits anymore??) or am I okay with a work-appropriate top/blouse? Both positions are in universities and work directly with students and maybe faculty.

    1. Rebecca D.*

      I had a lot of zoom interviews last summer and for most of them I wore a usual blouse/blazer combo. For my most recent round (where I got the job!) I was just wearing regular work tops/blouses/a dress.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Congrats on the interviews!

      For University job interviews, I wore a suit. You want more distinction of looking non-student like. Some sweater/cardigans on blouses look super suit like though. Also that age old better to be overdressed than underdressed adage.

    3. Riot Grrrl*

      The standard advice used to be: dress one step up from the general dress code of the position you’re applying for. I think this still applies even in the Zoom age.

    4. ZSD*

      A blazer over a blouse or button-down should be fine, I’d think.
      But I realize you might be asking this because it’s 9000 degrees right now, and wearing layers sounds like torture. I think if you wear one of your nicest blouses, and maybe some jewelry to dress it up, that would also be acceptable.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      As someone who hires at a Uni, I would error on the side of formality. I wear a jacket and blouse when I interview on Zoom. I also would advise checking your lighting and your space to make sure it reads as professional. I also made a point of locking my cat out out of the room, so she couldn’t interrupt which she is prone to doing.

    6. Free Meerkats*

      Pants. Please wear pants that go with the outfit. The stories of something happening and interviewers seeing you’re not wearing pants aren’t apocryphal. I saw it – nice shirt and jacket, even a tie. something happened and he had to move back – pajama pants…

    7. Elizabeth West*

      I wear a nice shirt/blouse and a blazer over that. Bottom half is black leggings so if I have to get up for any reason, it will look to the camera like I’m wearing pants.

    8. Nesprin*

      For academic positions? Prob overkill. I’d up formality for east coast or senior level positions or law/medicine, and lower formality for engineers/scientists.

    9. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’m in higher ed and actively interviewing for staff positions. Definitely wear a blazer, it’s still very much expected. If it’s hot (I recently interviewed in the middle of a heat wave with no ac) wear shorts or a skirt with a fan blowing on your legs.

      Good luck!

    10. Anono-me*

      Whatever you decide; Please consider checking your outfit on camera before the interview.

      1. Dragon*

        Yes. I discovered that dark-colored tops which in person are perfectly professional-looking, can look like dark shapeless blobs on Zoom.

        1. Anono-me*

          I was thinking more of my friend who wore a blouse that was almost the same color as her skin to a zoom meeting. On zoom you couldn’t really tell the difference.

    11. Mimmy*

      Thank you all so much for the suggestions!

      Related question: I’ve been blurring my background when I’m on Zoom…is this okay for an interview? I do that mainly for privacy, not because I have anything inappropriate in view of the camera.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Blurring backgrounds isn’t unusual for an interview, but just be aware that the feature can cause unnecessary movement in the background (like moving around your head whenever you move) that can be distracting to people who aren’t used to seeing it. Maybe try it out with a friend first and see if they think it’s distracting before you do it.

  46. Alice*

    I work at a university in a role that is transitioning to more mandatory in-person work for “visibility” and “collaboration.”
    My department has a mandatory in-person meeting that has recently been held in a room with sufficient capacity and a mask requirement. But next week it’s going to be in a smaller room without a mask requirement. BTW our county is CDC high community level (ie, CDC recommends universal masking).
    Two of us asked the skip-level manager hosting the meeting to move to a larger room.
    He wrote back, you find a big enough place then.
    I was able to find bigger options, a slightly longer distance from the manager’s office and our desks.
    Is it unreasonable that I feel pissed off, and I will still feel pissed off even if the manager moves the location?
    This person knows that at least three of us on the team are really concerned abut ourselves and/or high-risk people in our households. He knows that the team is bigger than the org’s official capacity limit for the room. He’s been saying for years now “of course we want to be safe” but it is just lip service, it feels like.

    1. Anono-me*

      I am POed at the manager just reading your email, so I don’t think that you, who would have been placed unnecessarily in a higher risk situation, are unreasonable to feel POed.

      Your manager has a responsibility to manage and that means making sure the TPS reports are done on time, and that too many vacations aren’t taken at the same time; but it also means exerting himself in the current environment to make safer choices.

      Unfortunately many people are weird about the continued risks to people with underlying health concerns. So sadly, while I am POed, I am also glad that your manager was willing to ‘let’ you do the part of his job that involved scheduling a safer meeting.

  47. Feeling blue*

    Feeling down today. My company announced a return to office next month. Five days a week. No more working from home after 2.5 years of fully remote work. And no exceptions to this new policy.

    I told my boss and her boss that I will be looking for a new job as I prefer remote work. My thought was if they see I’m serious about resigning the company might realize myself (and I know there are others too) are willing to leave over this. I think I made a mistake because the response I got was “thank you for letting us know. We will be on the lookout for calls for a reference check”. I know others, including high performers who got the same response. The company is holding firm on the policy even if people leave because we get a high volume of applicatants every time regardless of whether work is remote or not.

    I’m feeling down that they didn’t even flinch or ask if there was anything they can do to make me stay and also that I have to look for a new job because besides the new policy I really like my job, my colleagues and the pay. Has anyone had this happen to them? How did you get over it so your job search was not affected? I realized I need to buckle down because I only have a month before I am back in the office full time.

    1. Raboot*

      > I’m feeling down that they didn’t even flinch or ask if there was anything they can do to make me stay

      I understand the disappointment about leaving a job you otherwise like, but I think you are taking their reaction too personally. You said “I am leaving because X” where X is something they don’t have the power/desire to change, so there’s really nothing they can do to make you stay. I’ve been there, I was slightly miffed my last manager didn’t counteroffer to try to get me to stay when I resigned, but I realized he knew me well enough to understand that I meant what I said, so there’s that. Sounds like a similar thing here, they are respecting you and your decision.

    2. Donna*

      I’m sorry about your situation.
      I don’t have any advice – I have been feeling the same emotions a lot. I haven’t gone as far as to tell them I’m looking (because, like you, I don’t actually want to leave). My managers know that I feel unsafe because of workplace practices that go against CDC guidelines. They say, “we really appreciate that you are complying with the return to in-person work policies, because other people aren’t” – but they don’t change the policies. It feels like they are saying “screw you and screw your high-risk family members and screw the CDC.” But of course that’s not it – hey are just middle managers (even three levels up from me) with little power to change the situation.
      In your case, I bet that your managers had prepared in advance how to react to resignations or potential resignations. Unless they are dumb they can’t be surprised that some people would respond this way, even if they didn’t know who exactly. I bet they were working off talking points. It’s not a verdict on your value to the team.
      It is a reminder that, as much as I like my manager and you probably like yours, as people – they are not our friends. They can’t be candid with us. They don’t have our best interest at heart in cases where that diverges from the company strategy.
      I am still struggling emotionally to accept that people (not just managers but also same-level colleagues) who I thought were my friends and who I thought respected my work in evidence-based medine are perfectly happy to expose others to unnecessary risks. But it pushed me to strengthen my social circle outside of work.
      Good luck with the job search.

    3. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes*

      Well, that’s the thing about issuing an ultimatum. The best response from the recipient’s POV is “go right ahead”. No one likes to be threatened! I had a report try something similar a while back, and my response was exactly that: “thank you for letting me know. Let’s set your last day for (date) and I’ll notify HR so they can get the paperwork started. In the meantime, please focus on finishing off projects A and B, and document where you are with everything else for your replacement.” He was shocked and upset, but I’m not interested in being manipulated like that. He didn’t find another job before his last day with us, and on that day he came to beg, plead and then demand his job back. Didn’t work!

      Don’t ever issue ultimatums unless you are OK with “or else” being a perfectly acceptable outcome for the other party.

      1. Donna*

        You are right that an ultimatum can be accepted – but if it’s manipulative for OP to say “I don’t intend to stay long-term under these new conditions,” is it also manipulative for OP’s company to say “these new conditions will start on date X”? Do you also think it’s manipulative to discuss salary?
        And re your experience – if you shared your glee at getting rid of your direct report with the rest of your team, I don’t think you can anticipate the sometimes-valuable courtesy of a long notice period from anyone else. Sure, you may have been justified to feel joy to get rid of the “manipulative” staffer – but do you want to be right or to manage your team effectively? Or maybe you were scrupulously professional in real life :)

        1. Fergus, Stealer of Pens and Microwaver of Fish*

          Why would that be manipulative? Telling someone “no” is not manipulative – it’s about as straightforward as it gets. Hemming and hawing to make it look like you might cave and running out the clock until the other side is forced to do it your way – THAT would be manipulative, but that’s not what happened.

        2. apples to oranges to bananas*

          It’s not manipulative for a company to set rules about their workplace. People too often throw out words like manipulative and gaslighting and toxic when a company makes a decision they don’t necessarily agree with.

        3. kaycee*

          Is it manipulative to tell an employee that a policy change will be happening on a certain date? Is it manipulative to have clear, direct communication? What??

        4. Books and Cooks*

          Where are you getting “glee” or “joy” from Play Stupid Games…’s response? Where is the stuff about extended notice periods coming from? A man who worked for her tried to threaten her, and she called his bluff. That’s called “Being a good, strong manager,” not “gleeful, rigid, and manipulative.” My husband did exactly the same thing with one of his employees last year (replied to, “If I have to do X, I’ll quit,” with, “Okay, I accept your resignation.”) He wasn’t gleeful about it, but he wasn’t going to cry and wring his hands, either, or act like he should be ashamed to have called the guy’s bluff. And he certainly wasn’t going to let the guy manipulate HIM with threats.

          It’s not a question of “Do you want to be right or to manage your team effectively?” It actually IS managing your team effectively to not let some employees get away with bad behavior, and it IS managing your team effectively to not allow yourself to be manipulated. How would the rest of the guy’s team felt if PSG had caved? Play Stupid Games… has absolutely nothing to apologize for here.

          (FTR, I don’t think OP was being manipulative, and I don’t think Play Stupid Games… was calling the OP manipulative.)

          1. Donna*

            Well maybe I misunderstood Play – I took them to be saying that OP was manipulating OP’s boss as Play’s employee tried to manipulate Play.

            1. Velociraptor Attack*

              Personally, I do feel like it could be seen as manipulative to say “I’m looking for a new job because I don’t want to xyz” with the expectation that the response will be to change xyz and then being upset when that doesn’t happen.

        5. GythaOgden*

          No, it’s not. They know their needs and they also have a better assessment of how people work from home. The subject of ending grace periods for the pandemic and focusing more on how successfully people can work from home was featured on one of the short answer threads this last week, and tbh it’s not manipulative to ask people to come back in the same way that an employee using these tactics is.

          You have a right to leave over issues like this. They have a right to run their business as they see fit. There’s other factors that go into these decisions. As someone who didn’t get to work from home for the last two years and has struggled with the flip side of a lot of WFH logistics and seen other teams shift from WFH to in-person because of those logistics, I’m afraid I’m not as sympathetic as others may be simply because there are a lot of things that make full WFH less efficient in many cases.

          You can be disappointed, but you need to think more holistically about what others might find necessary and start thinking whether you can find something else better suited to your needs. My gut instinct is that hybrid or in-person work for many people makes things a bit easier for a lot more people than WFH 100%, and if you play chicken with your job over it, then that’s your fault, not your employers’.

          I’m trying to be direct but compassionate here, but WFH is a privileged thing and only a minority of people ever got to do it 100% in the first place. Dealing with the fallout of it over the last two years has been exhausting (before you even include the issues around who got the luxury of sheltering from the virus, and what we had to do to keep the infrastructure you folks depended upon going) and I really urge people to try and look at the bigger picture again. It will only cause more issues if it’s left to fester even more than it already has done.

    4. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I wouldn’t take it personally (although I imagine its hard!). I imagine senior management expected a certain percentage would quit due to the policy change and were willing to accept that (for whatever reason) and handed down a blanket “this is how you will respond” to middle management.

      Its pretty cold and harsh but perhaps this isn’t the company you thought you were working for? Or it may change going forward as well – folks will cycle out who dislike the policy, others may stay but grumble, new people will come in and potentially the rest of the culture will change. If change is coming, why not take control of it so you can change to what you prefer by finding a new job?

    5. Irish Teacher*

      Sorry to hear things haven’t worked out so you could continue working remotely. I agree with those who say you shouldn’t take the reaction personally. It sounds like they are 100% committed to the return to the office and…they may have guessed this is why you are leaving and figured that since they are not willing to offer remote work, they are not going to be able to retain you. It doesn’t mean they aren’t sorry you’re leaving.

      In many cases, their response would be the ideal one. They simply accepted your choice and didn’t put pressure on you to stay. I realise it lands differently in your case, when you WOULD stay if one thing could be changed, than it would if you were leaving say to be with a partner who worked elsewhere or because you’d decided to be a stay-at-home parent or wanted to travel the world or something, but I doubt they mean anything personal by it.

    6. CatCat*

      It’s always disappointing when a job changes (or doesn’t change) in ways that you would like. Certainly, the realization that they don’t really need you after all can feel like a blow to the ego, but that was always true, you’re just a cog in the business machine. It’s okay to be disappointed and saddened by that fact.

      You have valuable information here! They aren’t changing their policy for you or anyone else. That policy is a deal breaker for you. This gives you clarity on what you’re looking for in a job search and is easily explainable if an interviewer asks why you are looking to move on.

      While you’re experiencing the blues, focus first on just getting through the low hanging fruit of a job search so it is not totally overwhelming. Things like, make a list of tasks you need do, look up and bookmark resume and cover letter advice articles on this blog, make a list of places to look for job listings or people you can reach out to about your job search.

    7. SophieCroft*

      I don’t know if it will help to hear the management side of this, but in case it will, when we decided to bring everyone back to work (admittedly on a hybrid schedule, not 5 days a week), we discussed the ‘what ifs’ extensively. Were we really committed to this so that even if our best employee refused, we’d hold firm? Or would we make exceptions for great employees? We decided that for various reasons, including the volume of in-the-building work we had, that we needed staff to come back. And we determined that we are too small a business to start making exceptions. If we made an exception for one person, another person with a similar job title or similar duties would also want that exception and, if they didn’t get it, they might quit over the disparity in treatment, so we could lose people either way. Given that what we most wanted and needed was people who’d come in, we determined it was better to lose the ones who refused to come in than let them stay home and then lose some of the ones who were willing to come in but might have quit over having to come in when someone else didn’t have to. We concluded that even if we lost a few really amazing employees, it was better to stick to our policy. In fact we did end up losing one person whom we considered the best at their job in a particular role, because that person didn’t want to come back and made that clear to us, and when we wouldn’t budge, they found a new job. Internally, we were really sorry to lose that person, but what we needed and what they needed didn’t align anymore.

      I only say this because it’s very possible that the lack of flinching has nothing to do with how awesome you are, and that they’re deeply unhappy to lose you, but they have decided internally that they just can’t/won’t make exceptions. The fact that other high performers in your company got the same response helps to prove that.
      Remind yourself that you’re amazing and the problem isn’t that you’re not good enough to have an exception made, it’s that your needs no longer align with your company’s, so it’s time to find a new company whose needs include you on a remote schedule. Considering today’s jobs report, I’m betting you won’t have too much trouble.
      Good luck!

      1. Dragon*

        Understood. People’s individual remote/hybrid work desires can be so numerous and varied, accommodating all or even many of them would be impossible. So some employers just bring everyone back.

        At least one local government agency in my town brought everyone back to the office full-time, and the employees are all upset. OTOH, I know of someone at another agency who got busted remote working from a coffee shop when he should’ve been at home. Government workers weren’t supposed to work on public Wi-Fi connections.

    8. Books and Cooks*

      It’s not really your question, but if it helps at all, I doubt they’re going to hold you to that “I’m going to look for another job.” I know you still want to look for another one because you prefer WFH, but if you change your mind, and if you are asked about it, you can always just say, “I’m so happy with everything else here that I decided to give returning to the office a try,” and I doubt anyone will seriously think less of you in the long run.

      (And who knows, maybe after a little while they’ll consider bringing WFH back as an intermittent thing for some people? Like after they’ve flexed their muscles, they’ll consider relaxing a bit.)

      Either way, if you do start looking for another job, just think of it as others have said: something about this job no longer works for you or fits your goals & needs. You don’t have to view it as, “I guess I gotta find another job, since I’m not as important to this place as I thought I was,” or as a failure to get what you wanted. Just view it like any other job search: I want something that will make me happier than this does. That’s a perfectly legitimate reason to search for a new job, and doesn’t have to mean anything about your current place or your position in it.

      Best of luck to you!

  48. just wondering what's out there*

    Any former public library branch managers out there? I’ve been one for awhile and am feeling a bit “should I stay or should I go?” about it. I know how to stay, but I don’t know how to go because I don’t really know what else I would be. Would just love to hear from anyone who used to be a branch manager about what career you changed to.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have not left libraries, but three people I know who have successfully left libraries. One became a high level administrative person for the State Troopers where her amazing skills at organizing complicated information were super handy. She was a Gov Docs librarian before she left for that job. Another librarian I know, who was a Reference Librarian, left to work for Ebscoe as a sales rep where her instruction and presentation skills could be used. One I know who was the head of Children’s Services as a large library in the Midwest went off and now works from home and does very complicated data entry type work for a company that makes medical devices like gloves. Her job switch is the one I find most fascinating, but again her organizational skills came into play.

  49. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

    An org I work with just added a really cool feature to their employee directory. You can add in pronouns, preferred name, written phonetic pronunciation of your name, a recording of you saying your name, and any notes you’d like to make (e.g. please use alt text on images, X font preferred for readability). What you fill out is totally up to you, but I have heard they are pushing a tad for everyone to do the phonetic name at least, even for “common” names (e.g. Caitlyn, Keith, Sean, etc. might be obvious to an English speaker but it isn’t for ESL folks). I’m looking to get something similar for my org because holy crap is it handy.

    Does your work do anything similar? Would you like them to? What are some plusses/minuses that I may not be seeing?

    1. Other Alice*

      A few people in my company have started adding pronouns to their slack handle. I’d love to have pronouns in the directory.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      I like our pronunciation ones. Saves the awkward I cannot pronounce your name issues, they can replay it to themselves as much as needed.

      Pronouns just make sure your keep optional. Some people aren’t ready to come out at work yet and it can be frustrating to have to write the wrong ones in until you are ready.

      Also just keep an eye on length, when the signature is longer than the email it can be hard to scroll back through messages.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        Yeah, For that org all fields are optional, but some encouragement to at least do the written phonetic pronunciation and I am thinking that if we do it a similar approach. This isn’t an e-mail signature, but an employee directory, so space is less of an issue. I do like the idea of phonetic pronunciation in a signature block.

        Some other fields the partner org has available are:
        * Preferred contact method (email/slack/phone)
        * Time zone
        * Work hours
        * Official title and place in the food chain (e.g. X team in Y branch of Z division of Office Q)

    3. FalsePositive*

      I think those things are useful for everyone. They added a pronouns and preferred name field for us.

      If you are able to add it, I would give it a soft roll out. Introduce it as something people can update in their profile if/when they want. If you roll it out like “Everyone must update their profile and fill out all of new the fields”, then you will likely have some people freak out because Change is Bad.

    4. PollyQ*

      +1 for encouraging everyone to use the pronunciation. I’ve heard the names “Joan” and “Elizabeth” be badly mangled by ESL speakers. But go gently on the urging of pronouns. Some people aren’t ready to come out with their gender, but using pronouns for their “perceived” gender can be a very uncomfortable experience as well.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Even English-as-a-First-Language speakers! A friend was once talking about a character “Jo-anne” in a book we read and it took me a moment to puzzle out that there was no “Jo-anne” in the book–my friend was talking about the character Joan!

        1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

          Sean is the worst. Is it Sh-AW-n, Sh-AA-n, S-EE-n? All three are common and I always guess wrong

          1. ThatGirl*

            I’ve only ever heard “Sean” pronounced the same as Shawn, so I’d start with that and let someone correct me if needed.

            1. Irish Teacher*

              That is definitely the pronunciation in Ireland. The Irish spelling is Seán and the fáda over the “a” tells you that letter is emphasised/is a “long” a. I think though there may be other pronunciations in other countries.

              And honestly, that’s one of the easier names in Ireland. We have a fair few that are common here but would be confusing for people from most other countries – Aoife, Saoirse, Siobhán, Dearbhla, Ruairi.

    5. Ces Dury*

      A possibile minus: I work in a heavily male dominated field. I’m a woman but I have a name that is gender neutral (Alex, Blake, Casey, Jordan etc). 98% of my work is done over email. 1-2% is over the phone/Zoom/in person.

      I purposely don’t have my pronouns in my signature because I get way less questioning, arguing and pushback if my clients assume I am a man. I am a member of the LGBTQ+ community and wholeheartedly support my fellow community members but leaving my pronouns out makes my job so much easier.

    6. OyHiOh*

      I would love the phonetic name option in particular. My name is one which *should* be familiar and easy to pronounce, but get mangled routinely by English-as-first-language speakers. By English-as-first-language speakers who understand the culture/religious reference I usually give (wife/daughter/sister of Big Male Figure in Bible/Tanach)!

    7. CatCat*

      I think the phonetic spelling of names is fantastic. As someone with a first name that can be pronounced multiple ways and a last name that is “foreign,” I think it would be so helpful. Frankly, I’d love to be able to put it in my email signature and not just a directory.

      Like, imagine my name is Alicia Tomatillo. It’s pronounced “Uh-lee-see-uh Toe-muh-tee-yo.” If I could have that in my signature and directory, maybe I’d no longer be “Uh-leesh-uh Toe-muh-till-o” to so many people.

  50. Rebecca D.*

    Best advice for getting the most out of a formal mentorship relationship?

    My company sets up a year long program & assigns you a mentor based on your application. So someone who works outside your department/job function. My mentor is an age peer but in a manager role, so I think the ‘vibe’ will be different than if I was paired with a VP.

    Thank you!

    1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      This happened to me once and it was a struggle but I think the situation was different because I had a professional relationship with my mentor that predated both of us at the current company and neither of us really knew what we wanted out of the mentorship program.

      Spend time by yourself (or with family/friends/colleagues who aren’t your mentor) really coming up with some focused goals. Even if they aren’t SMART goals, they should be things like “learn what is holding me back from being promoted” or “looking for technical advice about xyz” or “asking them to help you navigate a tricky situation you are in right now” … you want to decide how much of the relationship is about you asking them for specific advice versus helping you train toward something better versus learning about a different part of your organization. This you can then bring to the mentor and figure out what the way forward is for them.

      Also push them to describe what their expectations are, whether they are part of the whole company’s guidelines or things from the mentor. Even in a relationship that’s mentee-led you want to know what their headspace is

    2. Eleanor S.*

      What worked for me is to have a couple of specific things you’d like to learn from your mentor and be explicit about them – this will help you both feel comfortable! I especially like soft skills for this because it’s harder to get opportunities to learn those. For example, maybe your mentor is particularly good at building relationships, or at keeping meetings from going off the rails, or at giving feedback in a kind but effective way. You can start off with something like “I was really impressed by how you [your example here] – I’d love to improve in that area!” This allows you drive the relationship towards what you’re looking for while taking the pressure off the mentor to come up with things that may not even be of interest to you. As the relationship grows, you will have opportunities to ask for advice on specific areas or situations, get feedback, and learn from someone that’s gotten to know you and your goals. Good luck – being part of a formal mentoring program really impacted my career in a positive way and I gained a lifelong network of both mentors and mentees.

  51. Ambition v Anxiety*

    In a nutshell, I don’t know how to handle my ambition vs my anxiety. I have a job at a company that encourages us to do Big Ambitious Projects. On one hand, I like this. I like growing and being challenged. I’ve never suggested something and be told no. I am certainly not bored. But the pressure to deliver makes me miserable on a daily basis, worried I’m not going to pull it off.
    On the flip side, I’ve worked in a different job in the industry where the stakes were lower but I was bored because I wanted to do more ambitious stories.
    I feel like I’m undermining myself because of my anxiety. Do I have to pick one? Or is there a way to do ambitious work without feeling crushed by the pressure to deliver?

    1. Qwerty*

      What makes a project ambitious to you? Is it because they are larger? Have more autonomy? Felt like they made more of an impact? Or was the risk of failure / not working out?

      On the other side of it – what happens if you don’t pull off one of those big projects? You say they encourage you to do them – if your company knows its ambitious, do they also embrace learning from failures? Is there a safety net where you can ask for help if you get in over your head that you haven’t been utilizing?

    2. PollyQ*

      Are you getting any treatment for the anxiety? Yes, some jobs may not be good fits for your temperament, but given that you like some aspects of the challenge, it’d be too bad if the anxiety stopped you from benefiting from it.

    3. M.*

      Your comment resonates with me quite a bit. I’m still figuring this out myself, but I think I would first recommend that you identify whether it’s true anxiety you feel or if it’s possible that you’re actually in the wrong role. I recently moved to another unit within the same team in a more senior-level role, and I’m coming to realize that it’s just not for me. I think I’m on a great team now, but it’s a small team, and the support level isn’t really there for me (or others) to take on ambitious projects (much less learn how to do them). More than encouragement, do you have enough actual support (resources, budget, personnel, etc.) to take these on? Wishing you luck!

  52. Maybe Going Back*

    How does one initiate a conversation about going back to a previous job?

    I used to work for company A until last year, when I ended up going to company B (among other things, because they promised growth towards management in the short term, when company A had been talking about it for some time but didn’t really do anything to get there). Turned out that company B was nothing like they said it would be, with no growth opportunities, overworking, and just really bad management. It came to the point where after 6 months there I quit with nothing lined up because of the burnout, and decided to take some time off to focus on my mental health.
    We had a really costly emergency, and now I have to rush my timeline for preparing for interviewing and searching for jobs, but the market for my skillset is a bit frozen at the moment. At multiple times, Company A had mentioned that if I ever wanted to come back, they would be more than happy to welcome me. So now I’m considering reaching out to them to see if they’re still hiring, and what coming back could look like, but I don’t know how to do it. Anyone have any recommendations on how to start this conversation?

    Thank you!

    1. Pizza > Tacos*

      I returned to my old company after 7 months at a new company that didn’t work out. Don’t over think it. I simply called my old boss and asked if they happened to be hiring, and they were! He was very happy to have me ask, setup an interview for the next day and that was it.

      If they have an opening and you left on good terms then they’d probably love to have you back since you’ll be able to hit the ground running.

    2. Riot Grrrl*

      I could be wrong, but I am guessing that some of the hesitancy has to do with a feeling of defeat, that you’ve “come crawling back” to your old job. If that is the case, I wouldn’t worry about it. If they are indeed hiring, their focus will be on getting you back, not on your emotional journey between then and now. Getting good employees can be enormously expensive and difficult. If you were a valued employee previously (and they are still hiring) they will be more than happy to hear from you, as you will be solving a problem they have in a very efficient and low-risk way. This could be a win-win for you and the company.

  53. SaraV*

    Question branching off of this morning’s quick answers and resume formatting

    I’ve been at my current company for four years this coming October, and I’m on my third position. (Where I may change to a fourth? Dunno yet.) In what order do you list your positions under one company on your resume, and do you list accomplishments under every position?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m on my fourth position at my org, and I list them chronologically, newest first to oldest last. In my case, each one was a pretty distinct step for the most part – think teaspoon sorter, to crockery polisher, to sugar bowl sculpting team lead, to teapot sculpting manager – so I have different accomplishments/responsibilities listed under each one. That said, when I got my last promotion there was one set of duties that I carried forth with me so my current position has a bullet point that says “continued crockery breakage tracking/reporting from previous position” (where the different things I monitored for broken/damaged crockery were 3 bullet points in my last position).

      If you were going from junior coffee cup painter to coffee cup painter to senior coffee cup painter, where there’s much less variation in overall tasks, you could probably combine them more easily.

    2. Qwerty*

      It depends on how different they are. If each position is basically a new job, then I list them under the same company. If the roles are pretty similar, then I list the titles and dates together followed by all the bullet points. I list the roles with the most recent on top so its consistent with job order

      Teapot Tech Inc
      Software Dev 3, July 2021 – Present
      Software Dev 2, Feb 2020 – July 2021
      Software Dev 1, Jan 2019 – Feb 2020
      – Bullet point
      – Bullet point
      – Bullet point

      vs

      Teapot Tech
      Project Manager, July 2021 – Present
      – bullet
      – bullet
      Team Lead, Feb 2020 – July 2021
      – bullet
      – bullet
      Software Developer, Jan 2019 – Feb 2020
      – bullet
      – bullet

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I agree with Red Reader, you’d have one bold section for Company, with subheads for the roles. Do it as newest to oldest. The accomplishments piece depends on exactly what you’re applying for but I would err toward yes. The key is that you want to show a progression from what you were doing 4 years ago to now; so if the first one is a clearly more entry level job you might not need as much detail in the accomplishments bullet points as the two more recent ones. It’s a bit of a judgment call imo.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        yep – of my four, the oldest one (six months duration) has one bullet point, second oldest (1.5 years) has two, the position I held for 5.5 years has the most.

  54. Meep*

    I am kind of stumped here. I have a Bachelor’s in Engineering and working on getting my Master’s in Engineering Management (I am halfway through). I have 5 years of experience and graduated 4 years ago. Due to working at a start-up, I became the unofficial manager literally week 2 of my full-time position. By that I mean, I was in charge of interns, training, and prioritizing tasks. I am basically the unofficial leader in the mosh pit of minions when no adults are around and they are frequently not around.

    We finally decided to shape up and hire a new President, CTO, CSO, VP of Engineering Services, and Director of R&D. Basically adults. Before, we had the owner and VP of Business Development – which if anyone has heard me rant knows is a legal nightmare but managed. I left in the beginning of March and the Owner begged me to come back promising these hires If I did. I agreed to come back if these hires were made and she was isolated for a pay bump as despite being the most seasoned employee, I was drastically underpaid. Well, the new President and VP seem to realize I was running the show and have now offered me VP of Engineering Management (basically what I am doing now).

    I haven’t accepted yet, but I am debating asking for more money as it is a drastic title increase from Engineer 1. The only problem is doing that limits how many new hires we can get and we want a lot

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Are you working in another engineering job right now, or just focusing on your Master’s? If you have a job, do you think being the VP of Engineering will be better than your current job? (Not just in terms of title and pay, but also in terms of supportive management, gaining experience in your area of interest, work-life balance.)

      If I recall correctly (could be wrong though!), you left the start up largely because of someone toxic in management. Is that person still working there? If they are, I would decline.

      As for the money, if you do decide to accept, I think it’s reasonable to ask for whatever is in line with a typical VP of Engineering at a start-up.

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        That last point. Do not discount your salary for the reasons listed, as its going to limit you earnings-wise. They need a VP of engineering and X, Y, and Z other positions, therefore they need a budget to accommodate all of it.

    2. Observer*

      If you getting the salary you should be getting is going to limit the company’s ability to make *necessary* hires, it’s not a going concern.

      Either way, ask for what the going rate it. Keep in mind that even though it SHOULD NOT be this way, what you make now in this role can very easily affect what you make in the next role.

    3. Nesprin*

      You deserve all the money or at least a significant chunk of money+ stock/options. Balancing the budgets isn’t your problem.

  55. BenAdminGeek*

    If all goes well, I’ll be accepting a job offer this afternoon. My boss is on vacation until Monday, but I used to work for his boss until she got promoted 3 months ago. Should I quit today and cc her so they can get the ball rolling with planning and HR, or quit this weekend/Monday morning just to my boss?

    Part of me wants to wait for him to return, but the other part of me wants to just rip off the bandaid and have it out there. I also hate to ruin my boss’ return from vacation- he’s a great guy, just this new job is a great opportunity.

    1. PollyQ*

      Wait until Monday. Your boss should be the first person to hear, and it should be done face-to-face wherever possible. And the amount extra time for planning and whatnot from Friday afternoon (esp in the summer) to Monday is negligible, or more likely non-existent, so there’s really no advantage to doing it today.

    2. Temperance*

      I would do it on Monday. Realistically – with some exception, obviously – no one is working on a Friday afternoon in the summer.

    3. Qwerty*

      I don’t see an advantage to turning your notice mid to late Friday afternoon vs first thing Monday morning. I doubt today would really count as part of your 2 week notice since you’d be getting it in at the end of the day. Nor would it significantly help with planning unless you are hoping higher ups will work through the weekend on a transition plan.

    4. HahaLala*

      Also agree on waiting until Monday. They won’t be doing any planning or prepping between today and Monday.

      Use that time to compile/protect what ever you need from this job– ie copy/delete any personal files, take personal items, make sure you have any benefit information/accounts information etc.

  56. Gnome*

    How would you handle it if you were working on site with a client (think subcontractor) and one of their staff would talk to you while you were actively talking to someone else? Like, discussing work in an open floorplan and while words are coming out of your mouth, they ask you a (work) question.

    What about when the same person interrupt your work conversation (at pauses) with social questions or chitchat to the other person? We can’t take our work to a conference room, because we need the technology at our desks (can’t move it), so this is really disruptive when we are collaborating. They aren’t taking normal hints (we need to get back to this report to have it done in time, etc) but are also highly sensitive and part of the client.

    1. Riot Grrrl*

      Is this an ongoing client that you call on repeatedly? If it were me, I would simply let that be reflected in my rates. I would allow the chit-chatter to go on as long as they wish, but I would be sure to go to my client and say, “It looks like these jobs are about 15% more time-consuming than it previously appeared, so my rate will need to reflect that time difference.”

      If they ask if there’s anything they can do to get the rate back down, let them know what the situation is and let them deal with the chit-chatter.

      But this works in my industry; YMMV.

      1. Gnome*

        I don’t set rates, it’s a contract I work on for my company. I work on site with them (or remotely with them when covid stuff happens) for 100% of my job. This individual isn’t the client, per se, their boss is. I still have to get the work done on the same schedule, the contract is huge – over 100 people – so this is a pitance. It’s not that it’s taking up time, it’s that it’s rude (in the first case) and rude and distracting in the second, although the second could cause errors.

        1. Riot Grrrl*

          Oh I see. Well in that case, the work arrangement is actually irrelevant. You’re dealing with a rude person. Full stop.

          Ok, again, if it were me, my way of handling this is to simply keep talking if I’ve begun talking. Nobody can interrupt you unless you stop talking. If you simply keep talking, they will eventually stop. Interrupting at pauses is really much the same thing. You simply continue the conversation you were having. “So Jane, as I mentioned, you have to click Accept before moving forward…” Again, this works for me. I appreciate that it may not work for everyone in every situation.

          1. Gnome*

            Ok. That’s what I was thinking. It’s been hard since it goes like:

            Gnome: so we need to move this…
            RudeDude: Hey Sam, do you like pastrami?
            Sam: Not really.
            Me: and what do you think we should do with this one?
            Sam: I think we can put it in the red folder
            RudeDude: I just found out that pastrami can be made from Turkey. Have you ever had turkey pastrami, Sam?

            And so on.. except that we are visually scanning files while RudeDude is talking… And the work requires massive concentration.

            1. PollyQ*

              To paraphrase Captain Awkward, “normal hints are for normal people,” but it looks like RudeDude is maybe not that normal. So I think you’ll have to be blunter, although that can still be perfectly polite, e.g.,

              Gnome: “RudeDude, I’m sorry, but we can’t chat right now because Sam & I need to focus on what we’re doing here.”
              [Optional follow-up] Gnome: “We’ll probably be another hour here, but I can stop by your desk after that if you like.”

              I put in the Optional part in case RudeDude’s trying a work-related conversation or if you really feel obliged to be not just polite, but actively friendly. But y’know, you’re there to do a job and he’s getting in the way of that. It’s not rude on your part to let someone know that you can’t chat about cured meat products at any time in your work day.

              1. Gnome*

                That is an excellent turn of phrase: …you can’t chat about cured meat products at any time in your work day.

                Thank you for that :)

                Also, thanks both of you for affirming that I’m not crazy that this is weird behavior!

                1. Road warrior*

                  I’d guess RudeDude is trying to flirt with you by asking non-sequiturs while you are trying to concentrate. You may need to shut him down a lot more directly than you have to date.

  57. Zap R.*

    Hi, all. It’s me, Theoretical Receptionist. Thanks for your amazing advice regarding my nightmare office move situation. I framed it to my Grandboss as a Health & Safety issue – if I’m packing 33,000 sq. ft. of office space by myself and then unpacking it all at the new place, that’s going to wreck my back and the company will be on the hook for workers’ comp.

    To be fair to Boss and Grandboss, this situation was not their fault. All of three of us have come to realize that there are some major cultural issues within the company regarding management communications and general entitlement. I think there’s also an amount of institutional sexism in play – I’m the lowest-paid woman and therefore everyone assumes it’s my job to clean up after them. That sort of thing is de rigeur for receptionists, unfortunately.

    TL;DR: Thanks so much for the sanity check and the advice. I had the confidence of knowing I wasn’t being unreasonable and that helped me set firm boundaries. Love to you all, AAM Commentariat!

    1. PollyQ*

      Yay! Glad things seem to have worked out for you! Are they going to pay movers to pack after all?

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      So what’s going to happen? Are they hiring a moving service? Are departments packing their own darned boxes?

      1. Zap R.*

        Other employees came in for a packing blitz. The execs were onsite today to do their bit and we’ve got a packing party happening for the common areas next week. It’s still stressful but I’m no longer responsible for cleaning out, sorting through, and packing everybody’s shit.

  58. JustaTech*

    Example language for a rejection letter for applicants?

    My in-laws are in the process of selling their small business but also need to hire a new employee like now due to some of their existing employees having family emergencies. My MIL said that she really wants to send a “sorry you didn’t get the job” email to the folks that they don’t hire (which I think is a wonderful and kind thing to do and I said so). They’re too small for an automated system to really make sense, so I’m trying to help them come up with a nice but formal “we went with someone else” letter that will let candidates know they didn’t get the job without inviting too much pushback/arguing.

    This is for a warehouse job, so it’s not a long or complicated application or interview process that would require a more individualized rejection letter.

    Does anyone have a good boilerplate letter, or links to standard language?

    1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Thanks for applying/meeting with me/us

      Unfortunately, we aren’t able to offer you the job at this time (I do this first because it’s the line they’re waiting for)

      We had a large number of applicants/strong pool of qualified applicants/high level of interest (if this applies; it can also help soften the blow if it is true) and a limited number of positions/for one opening.

      We appreciate your interest and wish you luck in your job search

      ***
      Something like that should work for you

    2. dreaming of italy*

      Thank you for your interest in our position as X. We had a very competitive pool and at this time, have decided to move forward with other candidates.

      Then, for people who we might hire in the future: We hope you will consider applying for future openings.

      Or for those who don’t fall into that camp: We wish you the best of luck in your career endeavors.

  59. Pandq*

    Did we ever get an update from the person who’s manager was pretending to punch him in his groin?

      1. Hlao-roo*

        First letter in the “my boss keeps pretending to punch me in the groin, my reference got a weird phone call, and more” short answer post from June 25, 2020.

        Sadly, no update and as far as I can tell the OP did not post anything in the comments.

  60. Riddler*

    I’m looking for any suggestions about one of my reports. She was passed over for a promotion due to politics above my level. Her performance has been somewhat less … enthusiastic since then but I have been primarily focused on getting the new hire onboarded. I now have time to really sit down with her and do a reset, talk more openly about what has presumably been a bit of a tough time for them and find out if they are checked out (which would be a problem) or able to move ahead. I don’t know what my goals are for this conversation or what to do if she is really unhappy. If she wants to leave that’s a fair response but if she stays (or stays for now) while remaining unmotivated I am not sure how to move ahead. On another note feedback about why they were unsuccessful is hard when it is intangibles like politics. Help!

    1. Gnome*

      My two cents: Acknowledge that there’s a place for disappointment, tell them that you do NOT think it was their skills/etc. that was the issue (focus on their positives, for example). I recommend against saying it was “politics” unless it’s something very concrete and potentially useful (e.g. I just learned that Fergus only hires people he’s worked with before, but that’s not universally true here – and something I disagree with).

      I also think it’s useful to talk to them about the “now what” of the situation. Like, “I know you’re probably disappointed that the X position didn’t go through. Since that didn’t happen, I was wondering if you were thinking of looking at other positions like it – either here or elsewhere – or if you wanted to focus on expanding your current role . While you are here, I want you to be able to do good work to help you move to that next level — wherever that is.”

      I’m thinking to engage them in a “what they want” so you can talk about what it will take, what you can do to help (if anything) prep them, but it also gives an opening to talk about performance. Obviously, strong performance will help you give a good review. You can’t do developmental work with somebody struggling, etc. But, if they aren’t just temporarily bummed, this conversation will help put it on their radar that you are on their side and WORKING with you will help move them forward. Of course, I’m assuming it’s more enthusiasm than actual performance issues. If they are really not performing, you can say something like, “since the news about the X position, you’ve been less productive/making more errors/etc,” and part of my ability to help you move to the next place is based on your ability to continue your prior high performance”

      Or something kinda like that. I’m sure Alison has better scripts :)

    2. Raboot*

      What does less than enthusiastic mean? Is she letting things slide or just not going above and beyond, measured against her actual level? If she was passed over for a promo due to factors outside of her control, then yeah, it makes sense to stop trying to perform at a higher level since she’s been shown there’s no benefit. Maybe you have seen more concerning behavior but just make sure you are comparing her to expectations for her actual level, not against “trying to get promoted” expectations. Not really fair to expect enthusiasm from someone who’s been shown high-level politics will prevent their advancement.

      1. Riddler*

        This is my worry. I want to respect that someone who feels thrwarted by the company isn’t going to be an above-and-beyond high performer, but this person is still a key part of the team and has a lot of job-specific knowledge I’d like to count on them sharing with the team.

        It feels to me like that’s a normal expectation for any team member – we are a collaborative group and often review one another’s work or have more epxerienced folks work with less experienced folks – but I don’t want to fall into a trap of her feeling like she’s being asked to be a trainer even though she’s not seen as that in a more formal sense.

    3. Qwerty*

      How long ago was she passed over? It sounds like only a week or two since you have spent that time onboarding someone – if that’s the case, its way too soon for a performance talk. She gets to care a little bit less about work for a bit as long as there aren’t major mistakes. Hopefully when you told her she didn’t the promotion, you made it clear that it would be fine if she took off a day or so – people need to recharge after bad news and getting a break helps prevent resentment.

      It sounds like you’ve flipped from thinking she was deserving of a promotion to writing her off. This is really concerning to me, especially because you are talking about being “enthusiastic” rather than work output or quality. You’ve also dropped the ball by not checking in with her or being supportive during this period. The language used in your post sounds like you’re considering firing her unless she goes back to her old self. Right now you don’t sound like a boss who I’d feel comfortable telling that I was unhappy, or looking at other opportunities – it sounds like you just want her to either quit or revert so it isn’t your problem.

      1. Riddler*

        I value her really highly actually! I just don’t want to fall into the trap AAM warns about where I think “what do I have to do to keep her” without realizing she may not want to be “kept.” But I hope she stays. It has been a bit longer than you assumed, which is why I think of it as a reset conversation.

        I’m concerned that my own instinct is to let them be and not ask too much of them because I’m spooked about the flight risk, but that is clearly not the right path.

    4. Temperance*

      I’ll be honest, I’m in your employee’s shoes, for basically the same reason. I honestly wouldn’t ask her if she’s thinking of leaving. Because, well, you know she is. She doesn’t have a reason to try harder; her hard work isn’t getting rewarded due to what I’m guessing are nepotism reasons.

      What CAN you offer her to keep her interested?

      2. Gnome*

        That’s why I’m thinking that it’s important to 1) be on her side and have HER see it that way and 2) make sure she’s thinking that she still needs the reference. It’s also possible she thinks she was torpedoed because you didn’t want her to advance or something else (we see that here pretty often) so if she knows you aren’t going to sabotage her attempts to move forward, she is more inclined to work hard .. and recognize that you will HAVE to give a bad reference if she phones it in or becomes difficult.

        1. Cj*

          Well, if you think she deserves a bad reference, then the entire thing better be explained. Like she was passed over for promotion due to high level politics, and she was less than enthusiastic about her work after that. Performance wasn’t bad and she wasn’t making errors, she was just less than enthusiastic. I think most potential employers would understand that.

          1. Gnome*

            Not saying she does or doesn’t, but it’s probably good to have it on her radar… If it is the sort of thing that looks like the start of a downward spiral.

  61. Aggretsuko*

    I have the opportunity to talk to the interim boss of the office next week about my issues. I’m wondering exactly how explicit to get about how I’m a failure at this job due to my personality not fitting what they want. A former coworker of mine works for him normally, loves him, and specifically said he’s gotten her out of doing things she hates doing because he doesn’t believe in people having to do things they suck at (in my case, customer service). However, customer service IS the job and I can’t get a transfer out since none of the other departments would take me, so I’m not sure what he can do.

    And frankly, I’m really concerned that the second the meeting’s over, he WILL contact my supervisor and the supervisor above her because everything I say will be highly concerning. Like, they know I’m terrible at the job, but they’ve made it clear that they do not want to know the true depths of my despair and I’ve been told I Have To Be Happy Here. I suspect it’ll be like one of those situations where you want to disclose something and the person is all “I’m obligated to disclose it to higher authorities if you do.” Like everything I say WILL desperately make him want to talk to her about me and ethically he probably should talk to her, but I NEED him to not disclose how in the depths of despair I am about the job. I don’t know if that’s doable or not.

    I don’t think there’s enough time to write this as an AAM letter since the meeting is in a week, but if other people have thoughts/advice as to how explicit or not to get, please let me know. We’re supposed to be talking about satisfaction with our jobs, communication, career opportunities (I have none), how comfortable we are with speaking our minds (not at all), etc. so…hard stuff. I know I’m not good at figuring out exactly what I can and can’t say without making it worse on myself, so someone else needs to vet it for me. Thanks in advance.

    1. Robin Ellacott*

      That sounds tough! I’m sorry. Obviously you must feel like quitting isn’t an option for you if you’re in a position you hate, and I’m sorry for that too.

      It might help to identify a goal for the conversation and plan from there – a “best case” for you, rather than the listed topics. Do you want your duties adjusted (which you suspected wasn’t possible if I understood correctly), or to ask if there is another role available for you that you might not know about, or for people to cut you some slack in a specific area? Do you want help getting better at the job? Or just to say “I can’t see a solution here but I’m hoping you can suggest something?”

      It looks as if the whole job description is stuff you hate, and that you feel you’re bad at. If I were the boss I wouldn’t quite know what to do with someone telling me they just don’t suit their job. And if someone said they were miserable I’d immediately ask what would make it better for them – so perhaps prepare an answer in case the conversation goes there?

      If there are specific things that are hard for you, can you ask for coaching in those? That might be a shallow path into the conversation if you want to sound constructive and you DON’T want them to think you can’t handle the job.

      You can also say “I have a real interest in __ so if anything ever comes up in that department I’d love to be considered” even if you think they wouldn’t take you. The boss may have access to channels you don’t.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Duties adjusted: not going to happen with current supervisor. I’m not sure if this fellow would or could be able to step in and request it or override them, my former coworker sort of implied that as an option he could do.
        Another role available: I wish! No other section of the office will take me.
        People to cut you slack: THIS IS WHAT I WANT. I’m doing the best I can, it’s just…not good enough no matter what I do.
        Do I want help getting better at the job: plenty has been offered and I’ve taken every damn class in customer service. What the hell else can you do short of getting me a personality transplant?
        “I can’t see a solution here:” this is my other option. I feel like I’ve gone through every possible reasonable option there is to try (career counseling, applied for everything, took more work classes, blah de blah). I would seriously sell my soul to the devil at this point to become what they want if the devil would take it.

        At the very least (or frankly, best option) I would be taken off of phone/counter/student service duty. I wish I could request that. I wish I had more of an analyst/subject matter expert sort of role than just being another interchangeable abused service worker.

    2. Polopoly*

      Disclosing something personal and important to you is a HUGE and terrifying leap of faith. You give up control in a sense, and there is no way to know that it will end up working out the way you want. The flip side is that if you don’t try to reach out, there is no way he can help. Or even know that you need/ want help. I’m like you in many ways – I am terrified to reveal my inner insecurities unless absolutely sure of the person I’m talking to…. and it has held me back… often and severely.

      That being said just based on your phrasing, i want to question your perceptions. You claim you are a “failure” and that no other department wants you, that you have no career plan, etc…. Do you have external confirmation of this ? Are you on a PIP ? It almost sounds like despair has taken over in your message. And that mind monster doesnt want to let you escape. If you have any support – friends, family, therapist, reach out now. Talk to them about the meeting and your fears. Despair will try to isolate and trick you.

      Regarding the meeting, maybe instead of him asking you questions and you responding…. how about you asking him lots of questions. What is his perception of how things are going? What are the usual career progression paths from your position ? (If any sound promising, ask how people normally move in that direction). If there is a transfer you might want (even if you’re sure it won’t happen), ask if it’s ever been done. First ask if internal transfers are common. Then if folks have ever transferred from your dept / role. Where did they end up ? what would it for you to do something similar ? Go from vague and general to specific about anything that might sound good. And don’t worry about whether it can or can’t happen – you’re just asking questions. No one is committing you to anything (unless you want to).

      If he asks if you’re happy in your role, you can be vague and honest “oh i didn’t realize when i started how hard customer service would be for my personality type. Do people in this role typically stay in customer service or do they usually move on to other things ?”

      If you get nervous about becoming too vulnerable (it happens to me often), you can always cut it short by saying something like “oh i was just curious – that’s useful information to know”.

      Good luck. I hope you are able to reach out and find yourself in a better space.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        I’ve been in complete despair for a decade now. I am not on a PIP but I have had someone try to get me fired, I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve been written up (probably about every 2-3 months for the last 3 years and then a few times a year for the 7 before that), and I get straight 1-Not Fufilling Our Needs every year on my reviews with my current supervisor. I went from good reviews to in the toilet reviews once I became a service worker and even when I technically wasn’t one for a few years, I got told I was one and was treated accordingly.

        Internal transfers have happened here and I got one once, but I “screwed mine up” because I got bullied in the new unit (see the firing part), was thrown back into customer service because the team hated me and the supervisor who protected me got another job, and I won’t be getting one again. People usually just get jobs as advisors (also a service job and not one I want) to get out of these jobs here, or some other position elsewhere. Some people have been moved up here, but they won’t do it for me.

        Asking him questions is probably a good idea though, thank you. I don’t know if he could answer a lot of your suggestions, but I might just lean towards “it’s difficult to get career advancement” here or something like that.

        1. Polopoly*

          Sorry about the double post – thought my original got lost on internet. Are these routinely scheduled meetings that your boss has with everyone, or one that was arranged for you ?

          Actually you are in better position than you think : you had a role you were successful in. So refer to that often. “As you know when i joined, i was doing xyz and got good reviews. My reviews in customer service haven’t been great. Is xyz type of role still avail in our org ?” Or “what kind of support would the org provide for me to get further training/ experience to qualify to do analyst/ subject matter expert type work?” “I’m not sure that supervisor k would support a transfer – what is the org policy ?” “Is this something you can help with ?” “How would you recommend we handle abcd issue ?”

          Use “we” statements and keep your questions open ended and see what happens.

    3. Polopoly*

      I feel like there is a lot of overwhelming fear about reaching out and sharing something that makes you feel vulnerable. You’re not worried that your performance would get you fired, but your unhappiness will ? It might be the reality of your situation. Or maybe despair is twisting your brain and preventing you from asking to make things better. You don’t mention disciplinary action or performance improvement plans so there is a small chance your office boss might be able to help.

      I’m terrible with giving up control / opening up in situations like these… but after decades of losing out, I’ve become a big fan of asking questions. “What does the normal progression of this role look like?” “Have people ever transitioned to xyz interesting thing ?” “What would it take to get to xyz non customer service role ?” “What sort of support can you / dept / org provide to do that ?” “Are internal transfers common here?” “Historically where have they gone ?” “What is the process ?”

      Any boss who isn’t completely checked out of the conversation will see where you’re going, but you maintain some control of the conversation (“why do you ask ?” “Oh i was just wondering – it is useful info for me to know”). And sometimes, some (rare) bosses have the gift of just making people feel comfortable enough (despite themselves) that it might all spill out anyways… and you might even feel better after it. And he might just be supportive and helpful. I know all you see is despair. But allow for the possibility of hope please.

    4. RagingADHD*

      This may or may not be actionable for you, but the first thing that came to mind was that speaking your mind is not the same as spilling your guts.

      He doesn’t need to know how far in the depths of despair you are in order to address the work issues here. That doesn’t sound like something a manager should discuss with someone anyway – that’s the kind of thing they should refer immediately to the EAP.

      I’d advise you to talk about the job duties that are difficult for you or that you don’t seem to be a good fit for, or the fact that you are not performing to the standard you want, but you don’t know how to improve.

      Try to avoid talking about your emotions, particularly not in terms of despair, failure, etc. Terms like “satisfied” or “frustrated” are about as emotional as you want to get in a conversation like this.

      You want a job where you can feel successful and productive. You have been trying to be successful and productive in this job, and your feedback clearly shows that management isn’t satisfied with your performance. You don’t know how to get from here to there, or if a different role might be a better fit. You don’t know what is necessary in order to improve the situation, or if you’re able to do what management wants, but you very much want to improve wherever you can.

      State the problem in practical language and ask for his help in solving it. Also, don’t tell him what won’t work. Let him come up with ideas on his own.

      This approach will do several things:

      1) It shows that you are smart and self-aware about the situation, and you want to do better if you can.

      2) It invites him to give help and advice. People love giving help and advice, and they tend to like people who ask for their advice because it’s flattering.

      3) It takes the discussion out of the realm of venting or confession and into a discussion of actions, which is always easier to deal with at work.

      4) You wouldn’t be telling him anything new or alarming, just giving him a different perspective on you and your situation. If your supervisor has told him negative things about you, this approach might make him see you differently and more fairly.

      Hope this helps. Good luck!

  62. spartanfan*

    Fun story, I ran across a business contact this week whose name is Fergus and had no Scottish accent at all. Apparently the name remains out there.

    1. Robin Ellacott*

      Ha! I wonder how many people meet them and immediately think of AAM. Maybe there’s an actual Wakeen out there too!

  63. Trying not to be a grump*

    Is it even possible to stay motivated, engaged and a beacon of hope in the face of a team with exceptionally low morale? The venting from everyone is dragging me down but I actually don’t hate life as much as others. A lot of the issues people have I either don’t face on my specific role or aren’t as much of a dealbreaker for me (having been in way worse in a previous job). How do you stop the constant moaning and complaining from dragging you down?

    1. Monkey, Bear and Mouse*

      Might be too hippyish for you, but there’s a Buddhist meditation practice called Tonglen that might help. If you’re into meditation!

  64. Amelia Ailema*

    I manage a team of 10 employees, plus my assistant. All 10 of my employees have the same title and responsibilities. When COVID-19 shut everything down, some people still had to come in to do the work that was essential to our operations and couldn’t be done unless it was at the office. One of my employees had to do this. She came in every day and did the work that can’t be remote, and my other employees took over the remote stuff. Basically the work was redistributed. Also she volunteered to do this when the request went out in March of 2020. So I wasn’t forced to choose someone.

    How do I as a manager, manage conflict between her and the 9 employees who worked from home? Now that everyone is back in the office, the work reverted to how it was before the pandemic. It’s still the same amount, but the tasks went back to how they were pre-COVID. My 9 employees who were remote feel the employee who stayed in office isn’t understanding of their dislike of being back in office. They have complained she isn’t supportive when they vent or complain and didn’t help lobby the higher ups to cancel in office work.

    I feel like telling them to knock it off because it’s not going to change but I want to be understanding as a manager. I understand this is a big deal to them. What do I do here?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I’m not sure what the best wording is, but these 9 employees need to understand:

      – working in the office is mandatory because [specific tasks] require them to be in the office
      – the in-office employee is not the right audience for their complaints about in-office work! Of course she isn’t understanding of their dislike of being back in the office–she never left the office!

    2. fueled by coffee*

      “I’ve noticed that (description of the conflict). Lucinda’s work in the office throughout the pandemic has meant that the rest of you were able to work from home for that duration. I understand that you are frustrated about the return to the office, but that is the current company policy and not within Lucinda’s purview to change. Moving forward, I’m going to need you to work collegially with Lucinda, even if you’re upset about the change back to in-person work.”

      Acknowledge that their feelings about returning to the office are valid, but they can’t take it out on Lucinda.

      1. GythaOgden*

        It may be diplomatic to acknowledge their feelings, but as the Lucinda in this situation, I think you have to make it clear and as public as you can get away with that you have zero tolerance for any actual attempt to drag her into the situation, and then make it clear that it’s basically bullying and it needs to stop.

        I am biased. I am Lucinda in this situation, and not even by choice, so this has been a raging thing for me for two years now — it took a while for me to figure it out, but it was July 2020 when I finally put it into words for myself. What was seen could not be unseen, and my organisation, while paying lip service to ‘unsung heroes’, has only piled more indignities on us, like revoking licenses to desktop Office apps (we have to do everything through a browser, including Teams, Outlook etc while higher-ups still get the apps) and a corporate uniform that makes me look about 15 rather than 42 (Knee-length skirt, shirt and jumper are all parts of normal British school uniform. It’s better than looking like a flight attendant, but not by much.) So make sure Lucinda has some tangible reward for her service and make it visible. Make sure you openly and actively support her rather than just disciplining these workers in private.

        Additionally, the tone has to be at least somewhat forceful or have an edge to it to work and in order to counteract the lack of support in-person workers have faced over the last two years. They’re the ugly sisters returning from the ball loudly claiming to their other servants that the Prince spent all night dancing with a mystery woman. You have to be professional, but you need to be firm and forthright.

    3. Robin Ellacott*

      I just don’t think you can DEMAND someone be supportive of your venting at work regardless of the circumstances. Going to a manager and saying “this person doesn’t agree with me emphatically enough” is a bit strange, and it’s especially tactless in this case.

      Definitely you have cause to talk to them and I think the above scripts are great!

    4. Free Meerkats*

      Now that everyone is back in the office, check with Lucinda and see if she wants to go remote for a few month (years). Let them all cover for her as she did for them.

    5. WellRed*

      Those nine employees are something special. Tell them to knock it off. They think the employee isn’t understanding of how awful it is to come in. Can they hear themselves!?

    6. Observer*

      I feel like telling them to knock it off because it’s not going to change but I want to be understanding as a manager. I understand this is a big deal to them. What do I do here?

      Tell them to knock it off. You don’t need to be “understanding” here. They are flatly in the wrong. She stepped up to the plate and made it possible for them to go completely remote. How do they have the audacity to complain that SHE, of all people, did not support them in taking on their burden?

      You can be understanding about their disappointment / dislike of coming back to the office. But that only works if they recognize how much they owe her and that the ONE person they need to not complain to is this coworker.

      1. Paris Geller*

        +1. I agree to absolutely tell them to knock it off. You can frame it as being sympathetic to them not liking coming back to the office themselves, but Lucinda has been supporting them the whole time. She has no responsibility to listen to them vent. They all have eight other coworkers they can vent with!

      2. JustaTech*

        Telling them to knock it off is separate from being understanding about them not wanting to be back in the office.
        What they need to knock off is giving the person who was in-office a hard time for doing the exact thing that they clearly hate doing! “Fred, I know that you hate counting the spider eggs, but Betty was here the whole time doing that while you were working from home, so she is completely the wrong audience for your complaints.”

    7. Nancy*

      You tell them to knock it off, that’s what you should do. Remind them the other employee was already supportive to them but going into the office so they could stay home. Now they need to be supportive by not whining to her.

  65. Fidgets*

    Anyone out there more or less passionate about their career but dread doing it anymore? I’ve built a career with a unique set of skills because I knew they were essential in combination but the industry nearly 2 decades later is finally catching on. Before, no one “got it” but gushed over my results and I kept getting work anyway. And now I’m in a great position – I’ve acquired expertise in a field of people who are very experienced in one aspect, and novice in the other. I can’t think of a single thing I hate about it. Sure there are unpleasant parts like any job but on the whole, a great career I talk animatedly about to anyone. I’ve quit because I just can’t stomach another big project, with the stress and effort that used to energize me, drain me. Before I quit, I spent a few years adjusting to compensate- part time, smaller projects, narrower responsibilities. Even mentoring and teaching others. I’m doing something completely different – hobbies and volunteering and I’m happy again, even with the huge pay cut to $0 (thanks savings and wonderful spouse!). Feels weird because I’m to “young” to retire. Just looking for your stories if you can relate; not advice really.

    1. Filosofickle*

      I feel similarly. I enjoy all components of what I do, I’m good at it, it’s interesting, and I can even get really excited about it. But I kind of don’t want to do it anymore! Feels like I’m pushing uphill all the time even though I can’t quite figure out why — it’s like the whole is less than the sum. How can I be bored with something I basically like? I’m not sure if there’s a small shift I can make to find a new angle on it I love, or if I need to transition to something else.

      1. Fidgets*

        Thank you, well said: whole is less than the sum. My small shifts worked for awhile, but they seem like stopgaps in hindsight. Maybe doing something great just gets stale after awhile- same same but different. I guess I’m Marie Kondo’ing the current career. Cross fingers the spouse continues to spark joy.

  66. Mine! Not Sharing.*

    Anyone have scripts for responding to an employer who wants me to put software I don’t trust on my personal phone?

    My job wants to train me to help the team that works with Client X on occasion.
    Client X requires a lot of security, including using an app that was created by Client X as an authenticator to access a VPN.
    I do not trust that this is only an authenticator and do not trust Client X so have not installed it on my personal phone.
    I did try to use an old device I don’t value much to download the authenticator but the device is too old.
    I’ve told the PM that and sent a screenshot and just left it there so far.
    I did not mention that I have a newer cell phone, but that is something others at work do know.

    1. StellaBella*

      Can you get a work only phone from your employer and have them pay the phone bill etc so that they can install it on that one, and keep it off your personal phone?

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      My old job doesnt advertise the fact, you had to ask HR and IT, but you could chose to get a USB dongle that you insert instead of using the phone to authenticate that it’s really you.

    3. Rick Tq*

      +1 for either getting a company phone for their apps or the company providing some external device to be the MFA token.

    4. Mine! Not Sharing.*

      Thanks, folks. I don’t know that the company is going to invest in a device for an occasional helper, but they might. The whole thing feels icky, like they’re just assuming that my property is available to the company as part of my labor or something, and aside from my suspicions about the software, that’s something I want to push back on. But I seem to be the only one pushing back, too.

      1. Hiring Mgr*

        Well, they may not feel comfortable letting management know that they don’t trust the client (that seems like kind of a big deal?). I know you mentioned the overall principle, but it’s pretty common these days to have these types of things on your phone….Not every place provides a separate work phone

        1. MacGillicuddy*

          This might be a bit late in the thread, but your employer has absolutely no expectation that it’s ok for them to install anything on your personal device. They have no right to do that. Just say no.

  67. Echo*

    Managers in nonprofit and other mission-centric settings, how do you help your teams handle the frustration of not being able to work on/solve problems that are above and beyond what your org can tackle?

    Imperfect analogy, but let’s say my organization helps companies and governments set up recycling and composting programs. But my staff hear over and over from clients that their biggest challenge is the lack of availability of recyclable/compostable materials, a problem we don’t work on and that isn’t what our capacity and skillsets are geared towards doing.

    In some ways this is a burnout issue, and I focus a lot on encouraging my team to take time off, making sure they are not overloaded with work, and modeling good work-life balance. But I’m also looking for strategies around how to talk about this issue when my team keeps spending their time, both on their own and in planning meetings, thinking and talking about how our clients’ suppliers use too much disposable plastic and styrofoam. I agree with them—this IS the biggest problem*! But it’s not what we work on, it’s not a helpful use of time, and it also doesn’t mean the work we do isn’t making a real meaningful difference for our clients. How do I talk about this to make it clear that I’m not being dismissive of their concerns?

    (*I don’t know if this is actually true. This is not my real industry.)

    1. BellyButton*

      Is it possible to compile a list of companies that do use environmentally friendly materials? Then there can be a standard “While that isn’t part of our mission, we understand that it is the root cause. We have a list of companies that manufacture or sell items that may be helpful. I will forward it to you.”

    2. SnowyRose*

      This has been a challenge for us as well, and unfortunately, I don’t think there is a perfect solution.

      So besides trying to manage burnout—which you’re already addressing—we are pretty upfront and honest with new hires and junior staff (this is the level where most of our folks face this challenge). We acknowledge that there are more topics and issues in the field that would like to address but we cannot. If we spread ourselves to thin, then we won’t be effective on anything. We do good work that has led to change, and yes, it’s usually slower than we’d like, but the issues we address are far more complicated than people like to acknowledge – fast is not always better. If discussions start to creep into meetings or other planning efforts, we refocus just like we would for any scope creep. Finally, if someone can’t let go, we have a conversation with them about whether or not our organization is right for them.

      I realize some of this might sound harsh, especially the last one, but you can still be empathetic in these conversations. The reality is, though, for those of us who work in mission-driven fields, it’s very easy to let passion overrule pragmatism and good judgment. We don’t want people to burn out or get disillusioned, and we recognize that we’re not always the best fit for some our of folks—there are organizations in the field with a different focus that might be a better fit.

    3. Alexis Rosay*

      I think you need to be clear with your staff that as the manager, you do not expect them to solve this problem, and you also need to redirect their time to the problems you can actually work on. If people are spending a lot of time on this now, they could be getting the message that you actually do think this is a valuable use of time.

      In my experience at nonprofits, I often received subtle messages from my supervisors that I *should* be trying to solve problems that were beyond what I thought I would be expected to do–e.g., signing up to teach computer skills but then expected to organize a winter coat drive for the computer students. You may not be intending to send these signals, but if you let your staff spend a lot of time on something you might be inadvertently telling them it’s a good use of time.

      To help direct and contain the energy people have, I’d suggest setting aside a specific meeting as an open brainstorming session where anyone can toss out any idea to see if there is any way you can make an impact. It might be something very small like another commenter suggested, just making a list of other options to give to clients. Then it’s easier to keep out of other meetings because you already have a time dedicated to it.

    4. AnonyMouse*

      Have you really helped them understand why it’s strategic for your organization to focus on the areas that you are addressing? For example, we can accomplish more in X area by focusing our work and fundraising there and keeping the org lean. Even practicing a script to use with clients as a group could help. Do they really understand your impact? I think that helps even when you can’t address root causes. I work in education and it’s easy to get caught up in the many other pressing needs children have, or feel like a single program can’t make a huge difference, but when you know what impact you ARE making that helps.

  68. Glyph*

    I’m in the process of hunting for a new job, and I’ve been applying to open positions all over the country since I’m not anchored to my current location by anything other than the current job. Pretty much every interview I get, one of the first questions if if I’m willing to relocate, which I am. Would it be better to include a line to that extent in resumes I send out?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      You can add a line in your cover letter to say “I’m looking forward to [living in/relocating to] [location],” but companies will likely still ask if you’re willing to relocate in interviews. They want to make sure you didn’t accidentally apply for a job in the wrong location (if they have multiple offices across the country)/that you didn’t skip over “Omaha, NE” in the job posting.

  69. Elle Woods*

    Are post-candidate experience surveys a common thing? I’ve applied for a number of jobs throughout my career and this is the first time I’ve ever encountered it.

    I found out this week that I didn’t get a job I’d applied for late last November. I had gone through three rounds of interviewing with the last being about three weeks ago. The role was a great match for my skills and also a stretch job, which is what intrigued me about it, so I’m kinda bummed about not getting the role.

    Two days after getting the rejection email, I received an email asking me to provide feedback on my candidate experience. I’m not naive enough to think that my feedback couldn’t be traced back to me but I’m wondering if it’s worth providing at all. Much of what happened during the process was unusual: the hiring manager resigned a few weeks after the role was posted and phone interviews with HR had begun, the grandboss decided the hiring manager’s role needed to filled before the role to which I applied, the office situation changed multiple times (fully remote, then hybrid [2 days onsite, 3 WFH], then onsite, then hybrid [3 onsite, 2 WFH]), the hiring manager’s role was filled and the process started all over again but this time with a different HR rep.

    For what it’s worth, the company did keep me apprised of the changes in a timely manner. If the company posted another position like this, I would definitely consider applying. I’m not sure what feedback I could provide other than “thanks for keeping me posted on the changes” that would be beneficial to the company.

    1. Raboot*

      They seem to be common enough in my field (software engineering). You aren’t obligated to come up with something that’s beneficial to the company. You can give (diplomatic) honest feedback or no feedback at all.

  70. snoopy*

    Hey all! I’m potentially expecting a job offer today. The interview process went well, but felt rushed and therefore a bit opaque (1/2 hour phone followed by 1 hour Zoom call), and I found the person who would be my supervisor hard to read. I think it would be really useful to speak to her again and see the office space before accepting the offer, but I’m having a hard time coming up with a way to frame that request. I already work on the campus, so I could easily visit the office. But the best I can come up with is “I have a few more questions about the position before I accept,” which is more likely to get a quick phone call scheduled than any kind of in-person visit. Any ideas?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      “I would like to see the office space and I have a few more questions about the position before I accept. Is there a time that would work for you this week where I could drop by your [office/department] for 15 minutes?”

  71. ExpectingProf*

    I’m looking for suggestions for maternity clothes for work—specifically pants that aren’t leggings/joggers/lounge pants, which are about all I can find. I don’t have to be super formal at work, but leggings are a bit too informal. What I’d really like is straight-legged pants that don’t cost $90, which is the only pair I’ve found so far. Anyone have recommendations? I can’t be the only pregnant person out there who wants slightly more formal work clothes but I’m just not having any luck finding them.

      1. ExpectingProf*

        That might work well! And there’s even one close enough that I could try them on in person, which is really rather do. Thanks!

        1. Velociraptor Attack*

          Depending on how large your area is, your Old Navy might not have a maternity section in store, just as a fair warning, but you can return things in store that you’ve purchased online.

    3. Carlottamousse*

      Seraphine has great professional-looking maternity clothes that also works for nursing. They’re pricier but a few good pieces go a long way.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Depending on what top you wear, you could wear non-maternity pants and leave them undone and paired with a belly band.

    5. Ann Perkins*

      Motherhood Maternity has work pants! I wore the Maia secret fit pants a lot. ThredUp is also a great way to get nice maternity clothes without dropping $50+ per item.

  72. Laney Boggs*

    I posted a few weeks ago about being denied a day off bc someone else (who takes every friday in summer off) had off and she backs up some accounts. Unfortunately I back up 4 of 5 ppl on the team.

    Well, our company reinstituted “summer fridays” where you work 4 10s and then 8-12 on Friday. Doesn’t seem worth it to me so I don’t bother. Except next week, I’d like to take off 2 hrs early for a concert. I mention it to the same supervisor and… she’s concerned it’ll cause a problem since someone else is off the whole week.

    Except e.v.e.r.y.o.n.e but me takes advantage of logging off early. I will be the only person online anyway (and it’s not coverage based!!! my accounts come to me. We have backups for true days off and vacation but otherwise we do our own thing)

    I’m just so tired of the unequal treatment. I guarantee nobody else, taking off at noon every friday, deals with this.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this! My office does summer Fridays, but ours is work 4-10s Mon-Thurs and Fri off. No everyone opts in (doesn’t seem worth is to me, either) so coverage isn’t a problem and as far as I know no one on my team ever has any trouble taking a day off or ducking out a few hours early on occasion.

      Can you explain to your supervisor that your 2 hours aren’t going to be a problem? I hope you’re able to go to the concert.

      1. Laney Boggs*

        Oh, yeah I guess I mean 4-9s!!! Oops.

        Yeah i ended up IMing the person whos on vacation next week, and he told me he doesnt do anything and takes off at 12. Super deliberated on that but let me know today it was fine

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can you even consider PTO a benefit if you never get to use it?? Good grief!

      I think I’d be having some blunt conversations with your supervisor and potentially someone above them. Go with facts, here are my last 10 leave requests, here are the reasons they were denied, I would like a path forward for how I can use PTO because the current NO PTO EVER is unsustainable. Keep your tone calm, you are problem solving together. (The obvious solution is supervisor lets you take leave, other solutions include cross train someone else on backup, submit leave requests further in advance somehow, change the mentality from full coverage all the time to sometimes we get voicemail).

      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        In that conversation point out too, what happens if you get extremely sick and literally cannot come in and cover. They need a plan for that anyway.

  73. LeftAcademia*

    After a rough month at work – plenty of paid overtime a lot of things have suddenly changed – I will get visit cards with title “senior”, am going on a first business trip for the company, got to be in charge of a small project across two departments. The down side is the workload will continue increasing dramatically in the near future both with high level and low level things. My boss suggested to get a junior to work solely for me to delegate simpler tasks? Pros and cons of hiring a fresh junior?

    1. Qwerty*

      I work in coding, so it may be different, but fresh junior employees are an investment. At the beginning, it will increase your workload as you train them on their job, company-specific knowledge, workplace norms, etc.

      Are you able to get a junior person hired, onboarded, and trained before your workload increases? If not, is there a junior already at your company who could transfer over to your team? Or someone on another team who can be an additional mentor to the junior person for when you are busy and they have a question?

      1. LeftAcademia*

        We are very close to coding but with a few differences. No, no suitable junior elsewhere at the moment and the only other possible mentor would be my boss, who knows less about the niche topic I need to cover. I am almost prepared to argue to hire a part time junior to save my time :)

      2. ferrina*

        Totally agree that a junior is an investment (I’m not in coding). Assume that for the first few months with a junior, your workload will increase while you train and onboard your junior. Having a training plan before they start will really help. If there are people who are not you who can help train, use them. Train them on the easiest tasks as soon as possible so you can start handing those off. And if they aren’t working out, address it early. I had one new hire that only lasted a month- it came out in training that he had misrepresented one of his skills and needed a lot of remedial training that we didn’t have the bandwidth to provide.

    2. Nesprin*

      Pros are you get extra hands and a fresh perspective and hopefully complementary skills, cons are they aren’t helpful until they’re trained, and you have to both train them then delegate things to them.

  74. ProudFather*

    I work in Utah, and am currently in the hospital with my newborn baby (woo!). I have accepted a job offer, and start within 2 weeks. I would have already given my 2 week notice to my current employer, however I fear 2 things-
    1) They may try and force me to come into the office, overruling my FMLA time that has been planned for months
    2) I will be unable to add my baby to the insurance once they revoke my access to the company website where I am supposed to upload the birth certificate.

    With regards to these to items, is 1 something they can do? If they do try it, then I will likely tell them that it probably makes more sense for me to come into the office to turn in my equipment and badge rather than coming back after my FMLA and working for the 3 days I would have left.
    How can I protect myself with regards to item 2? if this baby doesn’t get put on the insurance then I will be in a dire financial situation trying to pay for their hospital stay.
    helpful information- I am the father, and only scheduled 2 weeks of FMLA, knowing I would be starting a new job 1 week after that FMLA time finished.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Congratulations!

      Your plan for how to handle item 1 (if it happens) seems good to me.

      For item 2, can you access the company website while you’re on FLMA? Just to add the birth certificate and add the baby to your health insurance. If you can get that taken care of before you give your notice, that will give you some peace of mind.

      1. ProudFather*

        Thank you for your reply- I am planning on doing exactly as you suggest. luckily I can pick up the birth certificate (required to add the baby to insurance) on Monday if I go in person.

  75. Sangamo Girl*

    Calling folks hiring in a government environment. I need to whine for a minute.

    I work for the state of Illinois—where our governors make our license plates. (You can thank us for several landmark employment decisions including Rutan vs. the Republican Party of Illinois and the Shakman Decrees.) They have updated our hiring system—again. Even for government hiring, we have entered the land of the absurd.
    “Fairness” underpins all the changes. But the idea of fairness comes from middle-class, middle-aged, neurotypical, white folks whose first language is English. It is also built around the assumption that candidates are beating down the doors to work for us. Nope.

    I started the hiring cycle for an employee over year ago and I still haven’t been given the go ahead to interview. And if there aren’t at least three candidates left when I do, I may have to start all over. Otherwise, is can’t possibly be “fair.” I could go on, but I won’t.

    I have tried to handle this as if I was applying for a job. I have put it out of my mind and assume that nothing will come of it. But some days, like today, are harder than other. Help me find my happy place!

    1. Ditto*

      I work for a different state government and the process is absolutely RIDICULOUS. What has helped for us is that the vast majority of positions are unclassified so don’t technically have to follow the process tied to the hiring site.

      Agency specific HRs have been posting positions on Indeed, LinkedIn and their own websites. I know of one office who literally has applicants sit in the office and apply through the ridiculous process if the interview went well after finding them through other sites.

      Basically, know your system and figure out how to work around it. Applicants aren’t flocking to state systems any longer. Legislatures and top administrators who make these decisions still think working for the government is such a privilege workers are easily found and will take low pay and eroded benefits. Unfortunately, change is slow to come.

  76. Hanging By a Thread*

    Any tips on how to survive a super frustrating job until this project is over and I can start searching for something better?

    To give you some details:
    -Project planning consists of me or others on staff making spreadsheets of our volition and calendars that The Boss “trusts us to manage,” but then during an (impromptu) meeting, he makes sure to ask whether we’re aware of upcoming deadlines (that we reminded him of in an email)
    – We have been planning a Big Conference for several months in coordination with let’s call it our Out Of State Corporate Funding Office, who keep changing what they want and how they want us to do it, with the upshot of it being that we’re a month away from Big Conference and half of the meetings are changing/being started from scratch
    – We recently had an all-office meeting (small office) where we spent 45 minutes as a group debating a menu for one mini-event at this conference when every other menu for every other event was handled by individual staff members without any complaint from leadership
    – We have been warning Corporate Office for months about an issue that they didn’t think was important until a, let’s say, unpaid consultant/partner said the same thing, and now they’re asking us to change the plan but also all of them left on vacation without telling us what they want
    – And so on. The people are nice, but this job is driving me crazy and my ADHD makes it difficult for me to sit through meetings that I know are a waste of time. How do I a) survive long enough to find something better and b) not drive myself crazy while it’s happening? Venting after work is not enough – I want to find a way to be less upset in the first place, which is difficult because my productive/creative energy comes from caring about what I do.

    1. ferrina*

      First, I’d like to confirm that your boss is absolutely annoying. Reminding you of deadlines that you reminded him of? Ugh!

      Can you see this as a sitcom? I can see an episode of The Office or Parks & Rec that centers around a ridiculously prolonged menu argument. Try to sit back and smile, or channel your ADHD into doodling a scene from this sitcom or listing a feast of the silliest dishes you can design. Channel your caring into what you can control, and let the silly people have their silliness.

      I hope you’re applying other places! You sound miserable, and the things you list aren’t going to change until the people high up decide to change it.

      1. Hanging By a Thread*

        Thank you for your comment! Your analogy made me laugh – that is a great image and I will try to follow this advice. I picked random examples from this week, but this is just scratching the surface with this org. The biggest problem with getting out is that I am early career (although I have been working on and off for years, it’s been a lot of internships, part-time work, and a pretty major career direction shift). This is already my longest full-time job and I haven’t even been here a year. So I will start looking as soon as this big project is over, but I’m not very optimistic about my chances at the moment….

        The good news that everyone at this org, including “Michael Scott,” is a genuinely nice person; there’s just a lot of dysfunction/lack of management, and messaging from “Dunder Mifflin Corporate” has been confusing at best.

        1. Road warrior*

          Don’t wait until the project is over, as much as you can start researching new jobs now. If the stars align and you get an offer to start the day before Big Conference begins you should take it and run.

          Running yourself ragged to keep the Titanic from sinking doesn’t do you any good.

  77. Lyngend (Canada)*

    I got a job, where I thought I had totally flubbed the interview. Because I mentioned my asthma (why I changed career paths, needed a wfh job due to high % of cleaning chemicals in the air causing my asthma to constantly be triggered. No access to PPE, as N95 masks aren’t good enough). Mentioned that this job didn’t align with my career goals, (it’s a non-profit, I want a career in tech) and might only stay for a couple years (personal issues prevent me from having a 5 year plan or even a 6 months plan).
    Also had to explain that I had to make up my job title (the company job title is covered by my NDA. I put the functional job title) and similar with the company title (my company is weird. Merged multiple companies. So it’s hard to figure out what to put down. Internal company name? Doesn’t actually exist, or have an online presence. Company that hired me, still has job ads in their name… But in the ad its “now thus company” so I put company A/company B)
    And I honestly thought I flubbed the interview.
    Though I was clear that helping people is 1 of my passions. (which is true) and that while I didn’t have professional experience, I have a lot of personal experience with vulnerable populations. (I grew up poor, and many people in my life have suffered from mental health problems and addiction). And honesty seems to be a thing they look for, since they asked about the last lie I told. (I rarely lie. It was I lied about why I didn’t want a job when withdrawing my application since I misread a job posting, which isn’t their fault.)

    So. I’m looking for stories of “I thought I completely flubbed the interview, but got hired anyway”

    1. OyHiOh*

      I actually thought I completely flubbed something in my first interview for NewJob!

      They gave me a brief scenario, adequate time to read and think about it, and asked me to describe how I would handle a cascade of conflicting events. I really thought I’d completely bombed it, because in the car (where else) I started thinking of all the more specific language I could have used instead.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      When I had applied for a team lead role, one of the questions was “Do you have any concerns about potentially moving into a leadership role over people who have been your peers?” (They were restructuring, the TL role was new across the six teams, and they were hiring 8 TLs, so there was no guarantee that I would be assigned to my current team but it was a possibility.)

      I answered, and I quote, “Nah.” The panel blinked, and glanced back and forth at each other for a sec, and finally were like “Uh … care to elaborate on that?” Which I did, and I got the position.

      (Bonus funny: Many moons later, I was on an interview panel and we were planning out our questions, and the two candidates were current peers and whichever one didn’t get the job would be reporting to the one who did. So I suggested that same question, and one of the other interviewers was like “But what happens if they just go ‘nope’?” and I laughed (and my boss, who had been on my panel, laughed), and said “Well, that’s exactly what I did and it seems to have worked out okay?”)

    3. Sherm*

      Not me but my coworker, who I helped interview. She was very nervous at the interview, and it showed. Her responses were tepid and uninspiring. She even flubbed what I felt was a softball question. She was hired anyway, because 1) She had the qualifications we were looking for, 2) Her job doesn’t require her to have her game on in social situations, and 3) She had absolutely aced a test given before the interview — I was blown away. We were basically satisfied that she wasn’t a jerk or insane. She’s been here for almost 6 years and does great work.

    4. Flower necklace*

      When I was interviewing for my current position, they asked me about to differentiate between two things (ESL and EFL, for those familiar with the terms). I answered it correctly, but it wasn’t exactly what they were looking for. The principal had to add on to my response to get at what he was really asking. I was a little thrown and had to mentally pivot to answer their question.

      I still got the job, partly on my merits and partly (I’m sure) because they were looking for a teacher in August. I’m still here, five years later, and now the head of the department.

  78. Argh.*

    How do y’all deal with colleagues who railroad themselves into taking over other’s projects, even to the point of taking 100% credit for them?

    1. ferrina*

      I avoid working with them.
      For railroading, it helps to have a clear project owner. Sometimes you can bring the issue to your manager and they can help you resolve this.
      For taking credit, correct them. “Actually, Adelaide did a lot of work on the teapot design and I did the painting. I love how Adelaide’s handle is ergodynamic- don’t you think she did a great job on that?” (Bonus tactic: Compliment others involved in the project to illustrate how you are a team player so Railroader can’t accuse you of hogging credit.)
      For avoiding them, bow out of a project when they come in. Suddenly have “competing priorities” and let them know that you’ll no longer be able to work on this project (make sure your boss knows what you’re doing and supports you on this).
      Alternatively, give them a critical but awful part of the project. Make them in charge of dealing with the unpleasant SME, or researching the boring thing, taking on the most time-consuming part, or doing the nitty-gritty. Be “too busy” to help with that. Refuse to move the project forward without them doing that.
      Above all, BE PROFESSIONALLY NICE as you decline to acquiesce to their request. Never sink to their level- they will immediately use that against you.

    2. Road warrior*

      Can you let them take over the project, step 100% back, and let it fail when they can’t do it alone? Or, can you get support from your manager(s) to tell them “No, you cannot join this project” and make it stick when they try?

      Your Casey Jones isn’t going to stop until their behavior costs them something.

  79. quigley*

    I work for a small office. I’m the only one who contributes to the employer-matched retirement fund.

    There have been numerous issues with it over the years that I don’t need to get into. Currently, the office manager never remembers to put the money actually into the retirement account. I try to remember to check every month, but I slipped for a few months and, sure enough, she hadn’t put it in since May.

    I know she has a lot on her plate in her personal life, and it means things at work often fall through the cracks. I want to be sympathetic… but I am so tired of having to remind her to do her job every month. I know I need to do something like set an alarm (I have ADHD so my ability to remember things isn’t very good) to remind her each, but I get so frustrated because I have a lot of my own work to do.

    I don’t want to be rude to her, either, but my numerous attempts at kindly reminding her to put in the money obviously haven’t worked. What is my next step? Should I just suck it up and know I have to remind her each month?

    1. PollyQ*

      At this point, I’d escalate to your boss. This is really no different from your employer failing to pay your regular paycheck, and it should be taken equally seriously. If you don’t feel like doing that, then yes, schedule a recurring task on whatever system you like and send her an email once a month with the reminder. But really, this is BS on her part. “A lot on her plate in her personal life” can’t be an excuse for not paying employees what they’re owed.

      1. irene adler*

        Agree! The delays in contributing to the account can result in less $ accrued over time. So that, in addition to not paying you on time (well, your account), is resulting in a kind of wage theft. Don’t stand for that.

        1. Everything Bagel*

          I agree, Quigley is being way too passive about this. It is really unacceptable for the business not to be seeing to it that these payments are made timely. I would immediately escalate this as far up as possible including the labor board.

          Why in the world would you think that it is up to you to remind the person at work to put money in your retirement account???

    2. Rick Tq*

      Contacting your State Labor department should be your next step. If she can pay payroll expenses every cycle without fail she can do the retirement contributions correctly too. Not doing retirement contributions on time is tantamount to wage theft.

      You might want to start a habit of checking ALL of your financial accounts at the beginning of every month to catch the problem sooner. I do it to reconcile all my bank accounts and to check on how my company and personal retirement accounts are performing. I also keep a close eye on credit card charges

    3. Rick Tq*

      If escalating to your boss doesn’t change things your next step should be to your state’s Labor department. Frankly ,her not moving the retirement money on a timely manner should be a red flag to your boss that something funny is going on. She does payroll every cycle, she can do retirement correctly and on schedule too.

      Not doing retirement contributions on time is tantamount to wage theft, you have lost the interest you might have earned if the contributions were done on time.

      1. Observer*

        Frankly ,her not moving the retirement money on a timely manner should be a red flag to your boss that something funny is going on. She does payroll every cycle, she can do retirement correctly and on schedule too.

        100%

    4. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Do you have any sort of HR person, or do you have access to her boss? Because (assuming you’re in the US) what she’s doing is opening your office up to some massive ERISA fines. Under ERISA and DOL standards, contributions to a retirement fund have to be remitted in a timely fashion (note – the timing of this can change depending on whether she’s not putting in your contribution, the employer contribution, or both). And the DOL does not joke around with retirement plans.

      I would go to her and lay out what you’ve said, but add on “just so you’re aware, the government requires this money to be remitted timely and by not doing so I’m worried that we’re going to be opened up to fines”. Then if it happens again escalate immediately to the next person in charge and/or a HR person if you have one.

    5. Observer*

      I don’t want to be rude to her, either, but my numerous attempts at kindly reminding her to put in the money obviously haven’t worked. What is my next step? Should I just suck it up and know I have to remind her each month?

      Escalate to your boss. And when you do, make it not just about your retirement money. But what else is she missing when she “forgets” to put your money in the retirement account? This should not be POSSIBLE if she’s handling payroll correctly. Which means that there is a good chance that payroll is NOT being handled correctly – and that opens your boss to major legal problems.

      I would suggest that you look at your tax documents from last year and make sure that they actually match up. Also check the Social Security Admin and make sure that that matches up.

    6. Pocket Mouse*

      Ask her to set a reminder for herself to do it, if she’s not remembering independently, and make sure whoever supervises her knows both what has been happening and that the NEED to ensure your money is handled correctly going forward.

  80. DisneyChannelThis*

    Any advice for getting to know coworkers better? I had 2 close work friends, both have recently left. Been almost 1.5years in this role now. I make a point of leaving my office door open when I can, nodding at people in hallways I recognize. Office has about a once a month food based gathering which for multiple reasons isn’t great for me (unmasked to eat in crowded conference room, some diet issues) so I don’t usually attend beyond popping in to say hello.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      How much do you interact with your coworkers in the course of your work? And how do you interact with them? Email, IM, phone call, video call, stopping by their offices in person?

      If it wouldn’t be hugely out of place with your office norms/levels of COVID safety, try stopping by in person and engaging in some small talk either before or after the work purpose of your visit. You can also add in small talk to IMs, phone and video calls (not so much email). Over time, as you and your coworkers get to know each other better, the small talk will probably graduate into more personal conversation and work friendships.

    2. ferrina*

      I like to do coffee with interesting people or folks I just met. I’m remote, so I do various virtual coffees. Even when it’s sharing work experiences and brainstorming, it can veer into life stuff.
      If you’re in office, doing a coffee run outdoors and inviting coworkers. Covid-safer, easy to chat on the walk to the coffeeshop.
      I’m also pretty open about my personal life. “Sorry, I don’t have my notes in front of me. My cat settled in on my lap and is refusing to get off….”(veers into how we both love cats). “I’m excited for the weekend. I’m starting a new campaign with my D&D group/going to a fibre festival/planning to play video games all weekend.” If the other person also does that thing, that can spark a conversation. This tactic best deployed with folks that are generally friendly and could be your people- a couple folks I’ve worked with, I’ve had nothing in common with and this chatting was a waste of time (though we worked great on work projects together- very complementary working styles. Just absolutely not personal interest overlap)

    3. beach read*

      Are you comfortable with going out for lunch one on one or two? Maybe taking a little walk around the building? My best friend at work (for 20 plus years!) started at our company around the same time I did. She sat at the other side of the office, and our desks faced different directions, so I barely knew her. One day I answered my phone, and it was her calling to say hey let’s go to lunch. I thought it was odd she called rather than walk over so I was like huh?? We went to lunch that day and as they say, the rest was history. All of that is to say that sometimes all you need to do to make a new friend is to pick up the phone and say let’s go to lunch.

  81. onthemove*

    Not a question so much, but I’m starting to apply for jobs after more than a year at my current place where I’ve been pretty underpaid – I’m making 20/hr and aiming to jump to 25/hr. It’s so hard to stay chill about the potential to increase my income by 25% or more! I don’t know how I’m going to have any chill if I get interviews!

    1. OyHiOh*

      Find someone you can talk and imagine with, obviously not a work bestie!

      When I was interviewing for my NewJob, and contemplating the implications of more than doubling my salary, my sister and partner were invaluable sidekicks. I downloaded all of my excitement on them, and managed to maintain my chill at work.

      1. onthemove*

        Wow that’s an amazing leap, congrats!
        And you’re right, I should find an outlet… my primary friend group has a sort of policy about not talking about work and money, which is nice in a lot of ways, but maybe I need it right now

    2. Hlao-roo*

      In addition to OyHiOh’s advice, practice saying the number out loud to yourself until it’s no big deal so if an interviewer asks what you’re looking for, you can easily say “I’m looking for a job that pays $25/hr.”

    3. Paris Geller*

      Good luck! I changed jobs a little over a year ago and got a 46% pay bump. I totally understand that feeling, but what really help me keep my chill was knowing that if one hiring process didn’t work out, I had options. I was underpaid and really wanted to leave, but the workplace wasn’t horrible so I could take my time to make sure my next job was the right fit. Getting in that mindset for the entire process was crucial!

      1. onthemove*

        That’s awesome, congrats! I’m lucky that my current job is okay and I don’t need to rush but I’m so ready to feel more financially secure :/

  82. StellaBella*

    For those of you on instagram I have to share a new account that I love as she talks about a lot of things that we discuss here:

    -“Acting your wage” after being given a ‘meets expectations’ in a review after staying late, working 200% etc and not getting a raise.
    -She rates people’s out of office messages
    -She has help from a mysterious ‘work bestie’ to share with her how to say things professionally like “If I am doing both your work and mine, shouldn’t I be being paid for both?” to which work bestie replies, “Will these tasks be a part of my job for the long term? If so is there an opportunity to re-evalutate my job and pay?”
    SO many of them too are about bosses and colleagues with no boundaries.
    And she says, “Toodaloo” at the end of a lot of these video clips.

    Her name is Laura and the account is @loewhaley on instagram. I found her this week and have been cracking up and sharing her info with a ton of friends.

    1. irene adler*

      : )
      I saw the ‘acting my wage’ with the 200% work ethic = ‘meets expectations’ video short! Loved it! Didn’t catch the name though. Glad you posted!

      If there were a way for employers to hire all-volunteer staffs, I think they would do it.

        1. irene adler*

          Yeah. The compensation was 5 meals per shift or something.
          Don’t know many bill collectors or landlords that will take cold Chik-Fil-A food as payment.

  83. fhqwhgads*

    Has anyone here used HomePay, NannyChex, SavvyNanny, SurePayroll, PoppinsPayroll etc?
    I’ve read reviews of them all, but it’s very general. Wondering if anyone has specific experiences with these (or other similar services)? In particular: how long did it take you get to fully set up with them? how far in advance of the employee starting work did you have to set up the service? (in a sitch where the service is helping you get an EIN, not having an existing one) Anything other tips welcome. Thanks!

    1. Jessi*

      My employer had to use one of these when I started. I think I had three weeks of payroll before I was up and running on the system? You can still pay your employee before this stuff comes: I think you can opt to forward taxes quarterly to the govt, as long as you withhold them from your employees pay check

  84. Anon for this one*

    I’m wondering how those in publishing/writing feel about the Random House merger trial? The revelations of the trial, coupled with the unexpected middle-of-the-night folding of the tiny indie press that was going to publish one of my stories, are making me radically rethink my plans to attempt the trad publishing route.

    1. Rick Tq*

      There are a lot of resources out there to help with self-publishing. One group blog about the process is madgeniusclub.com. They talk about the writing process but also about the mechanics of editing, proofing, creating or purchasing cover art, and all the mechanical parts of going from a manuscript to a published book.

      Yes, you do a lot more work but you keep a lot more from each book sold and don’t have to worry about the accounting games TradPub (and TradMusic, not to mention Hollywood) plays with the sales numbers.

      I’m a long-time science fiction fan and most of my recent purchases have been either self-published or from a small press. I seen any titles from Tor (one of the big names in SF) that interested me in years.

      1. Anon for this one*

        Thanks for your feedback and for the blog rec! I also write sf/f but feel pretty removed from the market(s); a lot of what I’ve been reading in the last couple of years has, oddly, been midcentury non-speculative fiction. Tor used to be a dream publisher for me but I think my tastes have shifted.

        Much of this is moot right now as I don’t currently have a novel to query or self-pub (just writing short stories at the moment), but it’s interesting to learn more about how these things work.

        1. Rick Tq*

          Another group is North Texas Troublemakers (they have a youtube channel) for self publishing, random discussions, and general con mayhem. The group has a bunch of themed anthologies open for submissions right now all with the stated genre of “Entertaining”. More info at https://thelawdogfiles.com/raconteur-press

          Short stories can sell too!

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I am sick unto death of all these mergers. We HAVE anti-trust laws but it seems like they’re never enforced. I’m glad Stephen King testified about it though. He’s a big player and his remarks got a lot of coverage. Fat chance any of the bigwig greed monsters will listen, though.

      AFA indie publishing, that’s what I do. You have to do ALL the work and hustle a lot to sell anything if you don’t already have a huge following. But there’s a lot of info out there and you have greater control over what you’re doing.

      1. Anon for this one*

        Yes, funnily enough my day job involves following antitrust litigation (and thus frequent groaning about how little enforcement there is). The inside glimpse into the trad pub world this trial has given me has been illuminating but also deeply concerning!

        I have been following you since I discovered the weekend writing threads and was happy to see your comment here. This is late reply so I don’t know if you’ll see it, but do you interact/overlap with a lot of trad or hybrid authors?

    3. NancyDrew*

      I’m traditionally pubbed.

      The trial is an absolute sh!tshow and I cannot believe what PRH is putting on the record — it’s offensive to me as an author, but also to every employee in every department of publishing houses.

      We’re all talking now about how our agents will be using the line about “$100K not being a large advance” in our negotiations going forward, so I guess that’s a win?

      Publishing is so broken. :(

      1. Anon for this one*

        $100K advances are mind-boggling to me, a person who has thus far made less than $300 selling short stories to indie pubs, haha! (To be fair to me, I haven’t been doing this long, just a few months.) But seriously—I can’t believe Penguin put that on the record.

  85. Higher Ed job posting question*

    So, I’m looking at support staff jobs in higher ed in Canada: if a posting says that there are qualified internal candidates, is there any point in my applying? My impression is that the unions/contracts mean it’s quite unlikely I would be hired over an internal candidate; anyone with experience know if that’s accurate?

  86. Aiya*

    Kind of a weird question, but how do you handle looking young in the workplace?

    I am 29, but physically have the body of a 14 year old. As in, my body literally stopped growing at 14. I try my best to keep my appearance tidy and professional. I wear tailored clothing (nothing baggy that would further emphasize how small I am) and make sure that my make up and hair look clean and appropriate. But nothing can hide the fact that I’m stuck in a 5 ft tall 90 lb body with a baby face. At my last job, I was able to establish my work reputation by simply just excelling at my job, taking the lead on high visibility projects, and working collaboratively with my colleagues. People didn’t care that I looked young for the role at all, and it also helped that the role was basically 100% remote.

    But now that I’ve started a new hybrid job (with way higher pay, but less responsibility), I find that most colleagues tend to treat me as if I’m completely new to the workforce with no experience or skills. I completely understand that part of this is just because I’m new to the company and that I don’t have an established track record of good work yet, and that there’s a lot of institutional knowledge that will take time for me to learn. I hate to admit that I have a chip on my shoulder over my physical appearance, but I’m getting a bit tired of colleagues giving me advice on things I already have experience with or general life advice on things you should do when you’re fresh out of school.

    I’ve also experienced folks laugh in my face (not at this new job but at a previous company), saying that they were confused by my presence at work events because they had no idea I worked there since they mistook me for an intern or an employee’s child. I’ve never been able to assert my age or my experience without sounding bitter (and that’s because I am, as much as I hate to admit). So, how do I navigate this?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Alison’s answered a few similar questions in the past, so you may find some good advice if you search for these posts:

      “will looking like a teenager harm my job search?” from February 7, 2011
      “declining a management role, looking young is affecting me at work, and more” from February 23, 2015
      “my colleagues treat me like a kid and think I’m younger than I am” from November 4, 2021

    2. Wisteria*

      “I’ve also experienced folks laugh in my face (not at this new job but at a previous company), saying that they were confused by my presence”

      That sounds like nervous laughter rather than mocking laughter. It’s an automatic response that commonly happens in a number of circumstances, including embarrassment.

      My coworker’s strategy might work for you. Everyone new person he meets, he gives his elevator speech of accomplishments to. He packs quite a laundry list into that elevator speech. It makes it pretty clear that he has been around.

      And continue developing demeanor. I was just in a store where the employee looked and sounded about 12, including being short, but their demeanor and speech patterns were those of a 45 year old CEO.

    3. RisRose*

      No advice, but just came to say I feel this. 29 years old, 5’3”, 110 lbs, could still shop in the kids section if I wanted to. I have been slowly going grey since high school though and the only reason I don’t dye my hair is to help me appear older.

    4. Observer*

      Can you up your clothing and makeup a bit? Go for more than just “appropriate” to “sophisticated” (which should be possible even in more casual environments.)

      It should not be necessary, but if your appearance is throwing people off in ways that cause problems for you, it might help if you can somehow change the signals people are getting.

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’m ashamed to say the first thing that came to mind was to take up smoking to lower your voice!

      But in all seriousness, I’ve had this problem (to a much lesser extent). I think focusing on your presence and demeanor as much as physical appearance makes a huge difference. Doing things like nervous laughter, uptalking, softening your input, and minimizing your physical presence all make you seem younger, so what you want is to take up space! Hold your head high, speak clearly and confidently, sit at the center of the table. Act like an executive, leaving no doubt you belong there.

    6. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

      Could a light but pointed comment early on help with this? Like, “Yes, I know I look really young– you’d be amazed how many people treat me like I’ve never heard of a mortgage” or whatever. With the right tone, it will hopefully adjust their laughter to be directed towards those other poor idiots who underestimated you, while internally they’re frantically resolving to never be the kind of person you speak of so disparagingly.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m very late making this comment but consider doing the reverse of what older employees get told about hiding when they graduated college. I too had a baby face, and saw immediate change in some of my interactions when I tacked up mementos from my 15-year college reunion.

  87. Not Sure What To Put Here*

    I’m still on the job hunt for tech/analysis positions, but I’m also new to the working world. What’s the correct way to do remote work + therapy/medical appointments? Like…do I inform my manager/supervisor that I’ll be out for 2 hours (half hour comute + 1 hour appointment+half hour commute)? Does that eat into my PTO? Can I just…sign off for two hours, and then make the time back once I sign back in? I’m at a point where I typically only have these appointments every 2 weeks or so, so it’s not so bad. How does this compare to hybrid/office work?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Inform your manager that you have regular(ish?) medical appointments, and ask if you should use PTO or if you can make up the time earlier/later in the day/week.

      “Hey, [manager], I have a medical appointment every other Thursday from 10am – noon. Should I take PTO or can I make up the time later in the day?”

      Also, be sure to block off the time in your work calendar so people know you aren’t available! You can mark yourself either “out-of-office” or just “busy” and you don’t have to include any details, just block it off so no one tries to schedule a meeting with you.

    2. Kayem*

      Everything they said above. Not every remote position or employer will have the same requirements for something like that.

      My cohorts and myself have the flexibility to use PTO, make up time later, or quietly slip away for an errand as long as we remain available (like having the chat app on my phone). My direct reports can choose either PTO or make up the time later, as long as I know when they’ll be gone so I can be available to step in if needed. The employees my direct reports supervise have to tell us when they’ll be gone and either use PTO if available or take the time unpaid because they are not allowed to work outside of set hours.

      1. Gnome*

        Yes, exactly. I have the flexibility to just mark my calendar, but I also cannot set appointments at certain times without advanced notice (like, if I’ll miss a team meeting) or emergency. Not because it’s not allowed, but because it’s disruptive and I don’t want to spend capital just annoying people.

  88. Santa's Former Helper*

    Anyone have advice on how to deal with a new coworker that just gets on your last nerve? We had someone new join the team about a month ago. and I feel like we’ve been clashing on both personal and work issues from the jump. It also doesn’t help that she’s much younger and much less experienced than I am, but she got hired at the level to which I was just promoted. I’m trying not to hold that against her, but it’s definitely not helping me feel very welcoming toward her. At this point, even listening to her type on her cheap keyboard she brought from home is making my blood boil.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      At this point, even listening to her type on her cheap keyboard she brought from home is making my blood boil.

      Ah, you’re at BEC (B**** Eating Crackers) level with her. Captain Awkward may have some advice, if you search through those archives for BEC/B**** Eating Crackers.

      The only advice I have is that some of your anger/annoyance toward her is misplaced. It’s not her “fault” she got hired in at your level with less experience than you. That’s on your management team. Whenever your thoughts toward her trend in that specific negative direction, remember that the people who made the hiring decision are the ones who decided to place you two on the same level.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Cheap keyboard: If it’s making a bothersome clacking sound, I think it would be totally okay for you to suggest that she get a quieter keyboard. If it’s not part of a laptop console but detachable, find out first whether your company provides “quiet keyboards” and then suggest to her that she get one to use at the office.
      I’m not advocating you do what I did, just saying I can understand if you’ve thought about it: Many years ago I sat next to someone whose typing style and intensity on an older keyboard had driven me over the cliff. I was friendly with the IT guys, so I arranged for one of them, that night, to switch out my neighbor’s keyboard, AND mine, with quiet keyboard models. When we came in to work the next day, she was a little surprised and asked about it, and I pointed to mine and said “I dunno, they switched mine, too.” Sweet, sweet quality-of-life relief.

  89. Anon Today*

    My 17 year old daughter just got a job in a local shop, think ice cream or frozen yogurt. My one concern is that weekdays they only have 1 person working. I’m not clear yet if she will be totally alone in the store or if she will be working the counter by herself with an owner in the back. I have some concerns if she’s going to be alone. Shifts can be till 10 PM. What are people’s thoughts about safety?

    1. Rick Tq*

      Check with your state labor department about the laws concerning minors working alone. At 17 it may not be legal for her to work without someone else over 21 present.

      1. M&M Mom*

        Agreed. Literally same situation with my child at the same age. I called the state labor board to see what the regulations were. They could not work alone until they were 18. Until then , a manager had to be there.

    2. Irish Teacher*

      I don’t know what the area where you live is like, but I’ve found most places in my area reasonably safe until 10pm. It’s after midnight, when the pubs shut that things start getting rough.

      Can you collect her afterwards? Or does she drive? Walking home at that time is the only thing I’ve be a bit wary of, though even there, I worked retail when I was 22 and walked home later than that. My dad used often meet me partway as he didn’t like me walking home alone after 10pm or 11pm (and I didn’t like it much myself).

      Also is the shop in an area that is very quiet in the evenings? Or is it fairly busy?

      1. Anon Today*

        It is in a large mini-mall close to my house, next door to 2 restaurants. I’ll always drive her home after dark. My main concern is harassment from a customer, specifically sexual harassment. A much smaller possibility is a robbery. As far as I know there have been no robberies or violemt crimes in the area.

        1. Irish Teacher*

          That sounds reasonably safe, so, especially if the restaurants are also open late.

    3. NotRealAnonForThis*

      Check the rules for minors in your jurisdiction.

      Where I live, they may not work past 10:30 p.m. nor may they handle cash without adult supervision after 8 p.m. or sunset. Very rarely have I seen anyone slapped for this by the state, but they have done it.

      1. Anon Today*

        This is Texas. There are more laws for 14 and 15 year olds but not as many for older teens. There are no time or hour restrictions for her age, just regulations for physical safety like working with machinary. The state labor board is actually a very good, helpful agency. I’ll call them Monday.
        But laws aside, what do people think about the level of risk?

        1. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

          Having worked this exact situation (but in my 20s), honestly the biggest risk to working an ice cream place alone is getting a UTI. It’s incredibly difficult to take a bathroom break when you have a literal nonstop flow of customers.

    4. beach read*

      Kudos to your daughter for getting the job and wanting to work hard.
      IMO working alone at the local ice cream store all day until 10:00pm isn’t safe for a 17-year-old girl.
      Even if there is somebody in the back, their presence isn’t necessarily known to potential bad actors.
      Restaurants (conceivably) serving alcohol next door?
      I’d say no.

  90. Toretto*

    Are you someone who relaxes your typical pace of productivity on a Friday afternoon*? Why or why not?

    *Or whatever your equivalent is. For the sake of my silly little survey, I’m assuming a M-F forty hour work week, but feel free to substitute whatever the last few paces is before weekend-ish freedom for you.

    1. Irish Teacher*

      As a teacher, it…kinda depends on what classes I have? If I were teaching Leaving Cert. History last class on a Friday evening, then no, obviously, I couldn’t relax, but if I have a 1st year group or in my current situation where a lot of my classes are learning support, then yeah, I do relax a little. It’s a bit different because with younger or less interested classes, you sometimes have to accept you won’t get much done on Friday evening anyway because the students certainly relax THEIR pace of productivity and sometimes you just have to go with that and do something a bit more fun.

    2. Kayem*

      According to my partner, they do because Friday is when everything slows down across all departments, so the number of tech service requests drops off dramatically. Until 4:30pm, when suddenly everyone needs to have everything done immediately.

      I typically don’t relax my productivity on Fridays because I usually have prep work for the following week and while I could do it on the weekend or come in early Monday, I’d rather avoid that. Friday mornings, on the other hand, that’s when my pace relaxes. Mostly because I use the time to assess work from the past week and start thinking about my prep for next week and that can be done at a slower pace while listening to music and reading AAM archives.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Friday seems to be the favorite time for (virtual) meetings at my org. Some Friday’s I’m in 3-4 1-hour long meetings. I have no productivity on Fridays because of this, but I’m usually trying desperately to finish up projects before the weekend, just so I don’t have a crappy Monday morning.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      A little. My department has unofficial no-meeting Fridays, which means we limit the meetings we set or accept on Fridays (both in and out of the department). I usually spend a couple of hours on Friday catching up on reading industry news and watching webinars. I also use some time to go through my to-do lists to consolidate them and schedule time the following week to work on action items. Not having meetings on Friday frees me up to do some of these administrative and professional development tasks that I don’t have time for on a typical day.

    5. Lucy P*

      It depends on the Friday and what’s going on. At the moment I’m at a snail’s pace, but have appointments towards the end of the day so I expect things to ramp up.

    6. Person from the Resume*

      Yes. I and many other folks are off every other Friday, but not the same Friday. On the Fridays I do work, we generally have no meetings because so many people are out. It’s a good day for quiet, intensely focused work. But it’s at the end of the week so if you’re too tired or burned out for intense focus it’s more relaxed.

      Also a good day to go through the Inbox and clean it up and clear it out. Sort “paper”work and files.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I also schedule training on Fridays too as I am not guaranteed to get to it during the rest of week even if I put it on my calendar.

    7. WellRed*

      Oh hell yes. I’m a journal. We get a news wire out on Friday and then I often dial it down. I don’t wanna have phone interviews or write articles. I sometimes save up busywork for Friday. Right now I’m on AAM and planning to skip out soon.

    8. ScruffyInternHerder*

      Yes.

      I work in an industry that typically pulls 45-50 hour workweeks/salaried. That is literally what your workload is based upon. Its also kind of a lot, and everyone knows it and has known it since the 1960s at least. Therefore, not a whole lot gets done on Friday afternoons. Because honestly by lunchtime Friday? My brain is fried.

    9. Internist*

      I would say I take it easier about 30-50% of the time. If I finish something on a Friday, I’ll spend the rest of the workday taking care of little things more slowly because it’s not the right time to start a big new task. But if I’m in the middle of something I’ll stay hyperfocused right until 5pm or after.

    10. Overeducated*

      For me it’s either “rush to finish everything by the end of day,” or “take off early because I already hit my 40.” (I’m on a flex schedule so this is allowed as long as I’m working during core hours, and it’s not a job where overtime is regularly expected). I don’t usually have the in-between of just a chill Friday afternoon.

    11. Maree*

      Yeah, I do. Friday after about 2pm is pretty quiet. I use it for the boring admin jobs that use no brain power: reconcile the credit card, fill in my hours, empty my inbox, doy filing. I like to start on Monday with a clean slate. My work has an official shut down at 4 on Fridays. Everyone from the CEO down leaves for the weekend by 4:15 at the latest (the alarm activates then). I think this is really good practice.

    12. M.*

      Yes. For my own wellbeing, I genuinely need Fridays to be “wind-down” days that allow me to catch up on any last to-do list items and prep for the week ahead. So, I’m highly protective of my calendar those days, and if I absolutely have to meet with someone then, it’s in the morning. Luckily, our boss is very good about protecting Fridays, too, so it’s not hard or weird to push back when those requests come in.

  91. Amara*

    Interviewing for a supervisory job. I’ve never been a supervisor, I’ve never had experience supervising, but I’ve been paying a lot of attention to how departments work and why supervisors make the decisions they make. How do I present this in the interview? And are there special questions I should be asking?

    1. Overeducated*

      I’m in my first supervisory job after interviewing for a couple. I talked about analogous experiences for building some supervisory skills (teaching, supervising interns), what I knew the differences were between that and supervising employees, and how I would seek out training and support to learn about those areas and improve my skills. I was very honest about that being a growth area and having a plan for working on it, and interviewers always seem to receive that well.

    3. Bethie*

      I was in this position not long ago. I would focus on projects you lead and how you provided feedback to the team on those projects and measured outcomes, etc. Like “I assigned project components based on”, “provided feedback on quality of work for x to y person”.

  92. Do I join the bees*

    Late, but I desperately need some perspective because I feel backed into a corner and the stress is making me physically ill. TL;DR, I got offered a job and the thought of it makes me sick but I’m afraid not taking it is a mistake.

    I recently moved states. My husband was able to get a job ahead of time and we sort of picked our location based off of that. I’ve been spending the last month desperately looking for a job. My problem is that I’m 30 and never made it through college.

    In my old state I worked in healthcare doing a job under a certain certification, and in that state it was a certification that was super easy to get a job with. Also, I was really good at it and a lot of people knew who I was so I could have easily changed jobs and still gotten an ok paying job elsewhere. In my new state, people with my certification are basically useless, you need a higher level of training, and that would be 2 semesters of pre-requisites and then a semester of actual class. I’m looking for a job now.

    No one wants to hire me in a non-healthcare job because I worked healthcare for so long, but I can’t get an healthcare job. I can’t even get people to call me back when I apply.

    Wednesday I had an interview with one company for a job using my certification. They are willing to hire me and will pay me a decent rate (not great, but acceptable) to use my certification. Great right? Except that the shift is “show up at 8am and work til whenever we are done, maybe 5, maybe 8” and there’s no benefits except minimal PTO (no insurance, no retirement). Also, and what really is a red flag for me, is that they don’t pay OT. The owner runs 2 companies so if you hit 40 hours they shift you to the other company’s payroll for the rest of the week. And while it’s using my certification it’s working at a lower level than I’m used to and it’s doing work that I’ve done in the past and hated with my entire being.

    This is really bad right? The whole interview I had a voice in my head screaming at me to run and I cried the whole way home (I am not an emotional person) but I feel like this is my only chance to get a job. If a friend was telling me this I would tell them to run for the hills but it’s hard because I’m stressed and unemployed and feel very useless right now.

    Also, for more context, we are hoping that by January or next fall at the latest I can enroll in school full time and either work part-time or not work at all. So I don’t know if I should take the job and suck up the fact that it sounds like bees or if I should just keep applying to jobs and risk being unemployed long term. We can afford me being unemployed right now but of course my husband is stressed and really wants me to have a job so we can build our savings back up after the move. I was trying to calmly tell him about the interview and I ended up crying again (which is weird because I don’t ever cry) and he doesn’t know what the right thing to do is either, so I’d love some outside perspectives.

    1. Overeducated*

      OK this is really bad. I am here to reinforce what your instincts are telling you, which is don’t do it. I’m sorry your husband is stressed but you are stressed just THINKING about the job, and it sounds like you can afford unemployment for a little while. You may want to look into career training or transition opportunities if your previous path isn’t going to work, because a new field is better than being super unhappy in your current one. But you should only take a job that has made you cry multiple times if you absolutely need it for food, shelter, etc. You know this, you just need to be told this is OK. Yes, it is.

      1. Overeducated*

        PS when my husband had a “do I take the bees job?” situation I said no and he found something better. It took a ton of networking (like asking relatives for any contacts in the area, then asking THOSE contacts for introductions to people in his field, multi-step networking) and he had to take a few short term jobs, so it wasn’t easy. But they were better than the bees job, in pay and content.

        1. Do I join the bees*

          Thanks for your input. I think what’s skewing my perspective is that I can’t even to seem to get interest in short term jobs. I’ve had one callback and that went nowhere. Of course I can’t network because I don’t know anyone in this entire state. I’m really hoping to be in school in January, but I need to figure something out until then, which is why I wasn’t sure whether I should just take this job until then.

          I keep wondering if I can actually make any money doing Door Dash or if that’s a scam…

    2. Rick Tq*

      That owner is committing wage fraud by moving you between payroll accounts for the same job.

      Run Away Screaming.

    3. PollyQ*

      Also, and what really is a red flag for me, is that they don’t pay OT. The owner runs 2 companies so if you hit 40 hours they shift you to the other company’s payroll for the rest of the week.

      AHAHAHAHA THIS IS SO BLEEPING ILLEGAL!!!

      OK, now that I have that out of my system, DO NOT TAKE THIS JOB. I get that you’re feeling panicky, but a month job-hunting is not actually that long a time. I think it’s almost certain that if you keep hunting, you will find something better, because this job is going to be an actual literal nightmare. To stretch the metaphor, it’s not just “bees,” it’s “ginormous yellowjackets.”

      Here’s a suggestion: have you considered temping or a part-time gig, even retail? If you’re going to be going to back to school soonish, then you’d sort of be burning a bridge by leaving some jobs that quickly, but that’s not an issue with temp/PT work.

      1. Do I join the bees*

        I wasn’t sure if it was actually illegal or just super sketchy. They presented it to me as so super great because this way I could work more than 40 hours and I was thinking “well how do I benefit from this?”

        I applied to some retail positions, but I think the fact that I’m older and worked other jobs and never worked retail in the past hurts me because no one is calling me back. I’ve been working since I was 15 but my teen jobs were more service oriented and I never worked food/retail. I haven’t looked into temping at all, but that’s an option.

        1. Warrior Princess Xena*

          Not a lawyer, but a) this sounds illegal and b) your gut instinct of ‘how do i benefit from this’ is SPOT ON. Do not take the job. Your gut is correct and it is full of evil bees.

          If you have a little bit of time and funds, could you consider going back and getting that additional training?

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Seconding what Overeducated said. This job is bad. You cried after the interview. Shifting you from one company’s payroll to another to avoid overtime smells fishy to me. Don’t accept this offer. Do not.

      Spend another month looking for a job, at least. If nothing better comes along, maybe you could think about other types of work you could do temporarily to build up some savings? I’m thinking along the lines of retail/food service for a few months, just to have some money coming in.

    6. Lady_Lessa*

      Avoid that job like the plague or Covid 19.

      Have you signed up with any temp agencies? That might help both income and self confidence. I’m a chemist, and finally talked the temp agency to send me to a warehouse job. Being a distribution center, with a number of customer, the pace wasn’t like Amazon or similar. It was a major boost for my self confidence. I left there to get back into chemistry, and am having a ball.

    7. Katiekins*

      “The stress is making me physically ill.” “I got offered a job and the thought of it makes me sick.” “I was trying to calmly tell him about the interview and I ended up crying again (which is weird because I don’t ever cry),”

      Listen to your body! It’s telling you not to take the job. (And so am I, for what it’s worth.)

    8. Person from the Resume*

      It’s so bad, i think part of it’s illegal.

      The owner runs 2 companies so if you hit 40 hours they shift you to the other company’s payroll for the rest of the week.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Part of me is curious how they’ll get around overtime when LW hits 40 hours in a week for both companies.

    9. WellRed*

      Why on earth is this even a question? No you shouldn’t take this job. I’m sorry your husband is stressed but he’s being unfair. You moved for him. He can be more flexible for you. I’d honestly rather work part time retail or something until you can enroll in class.

      1. Do I join the bees*

        To be fair, we moved for us. We both desperately wanted to move, but he is by far the higher earner so we went where he could get a job. Not blaming him at all. The move happened sort of quickly, we knew we wanted to move, but weren’t thinking about this particular state until the beginning of April when he applied for this job so I didn’t have much of a chance to find out that things weren’t going to be great for me. Which, again, he makes way more than me and this is temporary.

        I also wouldn’t say he’s being unfair about this either. He’s said he really wants me to get a job to take the stress off him, but when we talked about my interview he said that he doesn’t know what to do but was leaning towards it being a bad idea because I’d be so unhappy. I just feel extremely guilty letting a job pass by while I am not working and I needed the intelligent people here to give me a reality check.

        1. WellRed*

          Something better will come along! You’re more valuable than you realize. Good luck to you both!

    10. Anonosaurus*

      Unless it’s a question of literally putting food on the table or paying the rent, trust your instincts and run as far in the opposite direction as possible.

    11. ScruffyInternHerder*

      Wait, what?

      *”Also, and what really is a red flag for me, is that they don’t pay OT. The owner runs 2 companies so if you hit 40 hours they shift you to the other company’s payroll for the rest of the week.”*

      I don’t think that’s how this is supposed to work and I bet the state’s labor board would be interested in this fact.

    13. smeep248*

      everything sounds so hard for you right now, and I am echoing everyone else’s sentiments. Run, do not walk, away from this job. I noticed in your post and in some comments you talk about how no one wants to hire you and that you can’t get a job and a lot of negative self-talk is coming through. My boyfriend doesn’t have a college degree and just landed at job at $100k. He is an exception, but not everyone needs a degree. Even the way you talk about retail and food service the attitude you seem to have is that everyone else is better at it than you are, which we don’t know if that is true. I just want to encourage you not to be self-defeating. 1) a month is not a long time to look for a job 2) is there any possibility this negativity is bleeding through in the calls/ interviews? 3) are you willing or able to share your state – maybe some of us might be local or otherwise have some leads for you. Good luck!

      1. Do I join the bees*

        I know a month is not long, it just feels long. I do have really crappy self esteem but I am good at faking it in person, it’s just getting to that point. At my old job co-workers always commented on how competent and knowledgeable I was for my position and I was like yo I don’t have a clue I’m just faking it so hard and it keeps working.

        I’m in southeastern Tennessee. I’m not great at anything on paper but I’m a fast learner who’s mechanically inclined but also is more tech-savvy than the average person (while having no experience coding, in IT, or actually using office because it was never needed in my jobs)

  93. Ann O'Nemity*

    My university has a recurring meeting for assistant and associate deans. Today I saw a message that shortened it to assis and assos. As I read the words I couldn’t help mouthing them. So close to asses and assholes ;)

    What unfortunately abbreviations or acronyms have you come across at work?

    1. Irish Teacher*

      Teaching has PDST (Professional Development Service for Teachers). It is…easily confused for PTSD. Even one of my students saw a poster in the school and was like “I thought that was an ad for PTSD.”

    2. Flower necklace*

      I teach high school in Virginia. Our standardized tests are called SOLs. When I was growing up, my mom used to use the phrase “SOL.” It didn’t have anything to do with standardized testing!

    3. Kayem*

      Former managers on projects last year insisted on a specific abbreviation for “cumulative” that drove everyone to giggles. One manager in particular was fond of using it. He also typed in all caps with copious amount of exclamation marks and used a lot of his own brand of shorthand. So the whole group chat would get blasted with a series of requests asking for various cumulative reports:

      “PRO (cumulative) REPORT!! NOW!!!”
      “(cumulative) FAN!! MY BOX TOMORROW!!””
      “PQ (cumulative) NEEDED!!”

      One day, he praised a colleague for having the highest cumulative stats out of the group:

      “FERGUS! YOUR (cumulative) TOPS EVERYONE!! GOOD JOB!!!!”

      There was a client auditor in the chat that day and apparently that manager got some lessons in chat etiquette. None of the managers have used that abbreviation since.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve said this before but stuff like this always reminds me of that old book Up the Down Staircase, where the principal’s admin always signed his memos “JJ McHabe, Adm. Ass.” The teachers all called him “Admiral Ass.”

    6. Nesprin*

      PNAS is a really prestigious journal (the proceedings of the national academies of science).
      Most people say each letter individually P-N-A-S to avoid saying PeNAS

    8. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Not at work, but when learning trigonometry in high school we learned about which known angle & side combinations we could and could not use to fully solve a trig triangle, using A & S for angle and side. One of the combinations was Angle-side-side – or ASS. Yeah, that went over quite well in a room of sophomores and juniors.

    9. Kay K.*

      I recently had to sit through a training session on how to recognize and correct Allele Frequency errors. Picture an older, grandmotherly scientist with a PowerPoint – “Ooh, this one’s abnormal AF! But don’t worry, just [science]! Now it’s excellent AF!” Also a room full of scientists trying hard as f*** to keep a straight face, and failing.

      There was also the time where a colleague started calling me Kay-Kay. This was fine. Then there was a team lunch, I was late, and the other people were seated. Colleague stands up, points at me, and hollers: “Hey, it’s the KKK!” Entire restaurant goes quiet.

    10. Pocket Mouse*

      There’s the classic point of service (POS) systems, which may or may not be actual pieces of s***.

    11. Girasol*

      I had a box on my shelf boldly labeled “PMS!” and got a lot of digs over that. My boss had gotten evaluation copies of a bunch of project management software apps that I was to evaluate, one simply named “Project Management System.” They should never have abbreviated it.

  94. Lattes are for lovers*

    Product Managers – any advice for getting into product development?

    Ive been working in communications/marketing for the past 15 years. I previously worked in Product for a healthcare company in a role that developed content. I also lead a team that performed research for the Product organization and found that I loved the product development process. TIA!

  95. Quiet*

    Does anyone have any advice about working with a medical oversharer? She joined our team as an internal transfer about 2 months ago. We’re a remote team so largely interact over zoom, but in 3 out of 4 conversations, she’s going into substantial detail about her IBS problems. I am sympathetic to the pain and difficulties it causes her, it’s a horrible illness – but I truly don’t need the details (and I do mean /details/) of her latest accidents.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I found a few letters in the archives that will probably have some good advice for this situation. Search for:

      “my employee keeps over-sharing personal medical details” from November 10, 2016
      “my coworkers overshare really personal details” from February 20, 2019
      “speak up directly to an annoying coworker: a success story” from June 7, 2019

    3. Imtheone*

      Point her to the low fodmap diet!

      Actually, I couldn’t tolerate the conversation at all.

  96. Lucy P*

    On average, how long did it take you to adjust to a new position within your same organization? In our very small biz, a coworker quit a few months back and I got almost all of their duties. Now, in addition to being accounting/hr/receptionist/departmental assistant/general management/capital improvement project assistant, I’m also a property manager.

    When coworker was here, I shadowed them in this role because I was always their backup. Doing the work on occasion is not comparable to having to do it all the time. Once they left, the first month or so was no big deal, but then a series of things outside of my control started happening. I keep saying that I just need to find my rhythm, but the tempo keeps changing and I find it difficult at times.

    I’m used to frequent contact with outside vendors, etc., but today I’ve spent over an hour so far texting various persons because most people prefer texting now and never check their email. I’m hating the ding/buzz of my phone.

    Now I’m at a lull for a few hours and am supposed to be working on a project related to my original duties, but I just don’t have the drive to work on it.

    Any suggestions on how I can better manage this? Going to my manager is not an option because they’re the one who keeps throwing this at me.

    1. PollyQ*

      I’d consider job-hunting. Having most of someone else’s job tasks get added onto your own is unreasonable, as is that incredibly long laundry list of your various roles. This is almost certainly not a time management or personal organization issue; it’s that there are not enough hours in a reasonable work week to get everything done.

  97. Usagi*

    The post yesterday about whether or not employees should be paid differently based on where they live (I’ll post a link to it in a separate comment got me thinking. I didn’t want to derail the conversation there, so I’ll ask here. It sounds like some people here work for companies that have a base pay, plus a premium based on where you live. So if you live in a high cost of living area, your premium is bigger, and if you move to a lower cost of living area, you don’t lose your pay, the premium is just adjusted accordingly. I think this makes a lot of sense for companies in areas with varying cost of living.

    My question, though, for those of you that work at those companies (or if anyone has any thoughts): since COVID, a lot of companies decided to/had to shift to being WFH, and many are staying that way, at least for some positions. What if a person tells the company one address in a high cost of living area, but actually lives somewhere else in a lower cost of living area? So as an example, Jane’s cousin Bob lives in McMansionton, a high end suburb. Jane lists her address with the company as Bob’s address (and Bob forwards all her mail to her), but Jane actually lives in Budgetville, an area with a much lower cost of living.

    I’m not asking whether that’s right or wrong (it’s wrong, you’re lying to your employer), I’m more wondering if there are any policies in place to address this, or if something like that has come up (and how did your company handle it). I’m asking becasue I think the premiums thing is a great idea to help make pay more fair, but I could totally see people gaming the system like this.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      A few people asked about lying about addresses in the comments of that post. I have no idea if any companies with remote roles and location-based premiums have policies to address fake addresses (ha!), but I do have some thoughts about the likelihood of this happening:

      First, I took a look at the US federal government location breakdown for their cost-of-living calculations. The areas are large. The Washington D.C. area includes everything from Arlington, VA to Baltimore, MD. So if Bob lives in McMansionton, a high end suburb of DC and Jane lives in Budgetsville, a poor area of Baltimore, they will get the same locality premium from the federal government. I assume that private companies have similarly large areas when they calculate their locality premiums, which makes it more difficult and less likely that someone would lie about their address.

      Second, it’s a lie that could be exposed in a lot of places if you aren’t very careful. There’s the casual zoom call chit-chat about the weather, which is probably easiest to avoid slipping up with, but there’s also potential for unexpected problems with health insurance, travel, and I don’t even know what else but I’m sure there are things related to both your address and your employer that pop up infrequently enough it would be difficult to anticipate them but frequently enough that someone lying about their address would be caught. Definitely doesn’t seem to be a worthwhile way to game the system to me.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t you need a policy. An employee lied about something in order to get more pay that they are not entitled to from the company. Adding in the whole tax / tax fraud issue if the address is different enough that it impacts that.

      You don’t need a policy to say that people need to be honest about their hours or not claim hours that they are not working. If someone is doing this and is caught, many companies will terminate right away. It’s the same thing.

      For the federal government the areas are really large. It’s not highly nuianced. You wouldn’t have people in different neighborhoods of the same city with different locality pay. You would make a metro area one rate.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        I suspect you’re thinking of it possibly a no big deal way to game the system. If you call it payroll fraud, though, you see how you don’t need extra rules to react to it when it happens.

    3. Warrior Princess Xena*

      It would probably be covered under existing payroll fraud rules. Employers already have to calculate pay based on employee location – it’s just usually for tax purposes, which is why employers don’t always allow people to work remote from another state. If I recall correctly the last time I signed any HR paperwork (which was a while back) I had to certify that I’d provided truthful personal information, which included my address.

      As remote work gets more common companies may add on additional policies requiring people to prove where they’re working from, or add location-based trackers to company laptops/software (which, especially given companies that work with sensitive information, I’m guessing many do anyways).

  98. Kayem*

    I work remotely and there’s no requirement to be on camera, except for a couple weeks of all-day client meetings, which I loathe because trying not to yawn or fidget for eight hours is hell. But we have these two big clients who require that every employee of the company at every level involved in their project be on camera with audio on for the full length of the project (which at my level would be 8-12 hours/day depending on the week and how much the higher ups are panicking about deadlines). And no one can turn off incoming video, it has to be on for everyone to see everyone else. Said clients are governmental agencies, so it’s not something my employer wants to say no to.

    My employer has tried to convince these clients not to submit everyone to this torture on a variety of practical grounds: it’s annoying to have everyone’s mics unmuted the whole time, remote workers with visible disabilities or medical conditions might not want that to be on camera for everyone to see all day, it’s annoying, not everyone has the internet bandwidth to support that many incoming video connections for 40+ hours/week, and it’s annoying.

    Despite this, the clients insisted these policies are in place because in their opinion, “it’s no different than being in the office.” See, I disagree. I would rather be in the office than be on camera with my face staring out at dozens of screens across the world, with every sniffle amplified by headsets directly into all our ear holes. Also, the company office is air conditioned, my home office is not, so layers of clothing have to start coming off as the afternoon hits. No one wants to see that, just like I didn’t want to see a colleague’s spouse wander nude in the background.

    The clients cannot understand why there aren’t more people signing up for this project. I told my bosses I would as long as I got to choose my own background (bridge of the Death Star, naturally) and they paid me an incentive for being on camera, but the client refuses to pay incentives.

    So, being on camera and unmuted all day…is it really just like being in the office?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      No, that’s not like being in the office. That’s like being trapped in an all-day meeting around a conference table.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        With everyone miked and speakers all over broadcasting every noise, and everyone is able to stare directly at everyone else’s face all the time. That is not equivalent to an office environment.

        Sounds like a nightmare, honestly. Video is optional at my work (also a gov’t agency) and only a handful of people do it regularly. I tend to turn off incoming video anyway because I find it so distracting. If everyone was also unmuted all the time … I can’t even imagine.

    2. PollyQ*

      No, it is not just like being in the office. First, many people work in spaces with cubicles and offices, where you can’t see or hear someone, or even know they’re there, unless you walk right up to them. Second, even in the most open of open space plans, you can’t easily see everyone’s face at once or hear what they’re saying unless you’re reasonably close. Third, as you note, it’s a window into people’s personal homes, which isn’t something that would be possible in an office environment. Fourth, even if it were just like being in an office, so what? People aren’t in the office, and there’s no business need to replicate the experience. I’m glad your employer is letting people opt out of working with these irrational micromanagers.

    3. Wisteria*

      That’s like saying that publishing your phone number and address on the internet is just like publishing them in a phone book.

      In the office, only the people close to your desk see and hear you all day (and you only see and hear people near your desk). Plus, with a camera/microphone, it’s easy to forget they are there and pick your nose or something.

    4. Observer*

      No, it’s not like being in the office.

      Also, it may be opening them up to liability. Because it may force people to disclose protected information (eg disability), and it may cause problems with other legally protected accommodations.

  99. Naiya_Azurewater*

    Hi all! I’ve been told that, sometime in the next few months (timeline to be determined) I’m going to get my first ever direct report! I’ve never managed people before though I have 15 years of work experience.

    I have a week vacation coming up and am wondering if anyone has some good books/resources you can recommend for a new supervisor. Thanks in advance!

  100. Jellyfish*

    A coworker I distrust often asks direct questions about my opinions and experiences with work issues, others in our workplace, etc. I need to remain on friendly terms with this person, so completely shutting down that line of questioning isn’t a viable option.

    I have a tendency to answer honestly, to my own potential detriment. This week, we had an extended conversation in which I managed to stay warm and engaged without actually telling them anything. It was quite a triumph for me, although I’m not sure how effectively I’ll pull that off next time.

    Anyone have suggestions or scripts for being circumspect in conversations when your natural inclination is openness verging on oversharing?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Congratulations on your recent extended conversation without actually telling them anything! That is an accomplishment, and I have no doubts you can do it again.

      Can you practice with a friend? Practice both some friendly, warm, and uninformative phrases and practice ways of ending the conversation politely so if you ever feel you’re about to switch back to honesty, you can pull off a warm “well it’s been lovely chatting with you but look at the time, I really must get back to these TPS reports.”

      1. Jellyfish*

        Thanks! I’m concerned they’ll realize I’m deliberately brushing them off and start pushing harder, but I suppose I’ll just have to deal with that if it happens.
        You’re right though, if I’ve done it once, I can do it again.

    2. Lucy P*

      Act as if you’re in HR and everything you’re inclined to say is privileged/confidential information.

    3. ferrina*

      Congrats on your successful convo! Like Hlao-roo says, it will get easier with practice and I have no doubt you will do it again.

      Scripts:
      -“Shoot, will you excuse me? I just remembered that I forgot to send my boss an email” (when you feel like you’re about to overshare, find an excuse to leave the conversation)
      -“What do I think of Melanie? Melanie’s really good at proofing- she can a font change from Arial to Times New Roman in the middle of a word!” (Say only nice things about other people, even better if it’s something that they’re not interested in. They’ll be less likely to approach you if you won’t give them fodder.)
      -“Well, I think we got a lot of learnings from that project/meeting.” (That’s a diplomatic way to say “it was s-show and I would never do something like that again.”)
      -“I got the sense that that was confidential. Let me confirm with Boss before I share more- you know how it is.”

      Don’t be afraid to sound over-optimistic or naive. I’ve used some very diplomatic euphemisms, and if the person I’m talking to agrees, they know immediately what I’m talking about. Also listen to what euphemisms coworkers and senior peers use- yesterday I heard “she has a clear vision” as code for “she’s stubborn and sucks at listening to others”.

    4. Despachito*

      Are you afraid that your coworker might use the information you give him against you?

      I’d definitely not say anything bad about people, and if I did not like someone I’d be diplomatic and noncommittal as Ferrina is suggesting.

      As to the experiences with work issues – can that be used against you too (if so, I’d use the above tactics), or is it less harmful (if he asks what is the best way to groom llamas, perhaps it would be OK just to tell him because he cannot potentially use it against you)?

      1. Jellyfish*

        I don’t say anything terrible, but they definitely have an agenda. I’m not always sure what the agenda is, and I don’t want to be an unwitting part of it.

        I’ve seen them ask other people seemingly innocent questions and then twist the answers in a different context later. I’m trying to avoid giving them anything to work with – including accusations of not being a team player.

        Everyone in our small division recognizes this person’s tactics, but they’re popular in the wider organization.

        1. Despachito*

          I think you selected a very good tactics, and as you said, you can continue doing what you are doing. If they push harder… just keep doing this. I think there can be an element of certain satisfaction NOT to give them ammunition to shoot you with. (I’d possibly think of myself as James Bond and of Coworker as an enemy spy to get some fun of it).

    5. Hex Code*

      What about asking questions back? Like a “hmm, I’ll have to think about that. Do you have specifics on mind?” When I’ve worked with people who were gossips or otherwise liked to stir things up and weren’t trustworthy, I got really good at making noncommittal noises in situations where they would be looking to me to agree with whatever they were trying to insinuate about somebody. “Hmm, I don’t know….so, back to Actual Project!”

  101. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

    Is it normal to have 5 different managers in the 5 years you’ve been at a company?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I had five managers in five years at one company, but that’s because I was in a rotational program for the first three years, where I was changing roles/managers every year. Then the team I was on after the rotational program was reorganized with a few other teams, and my manger changed again. So it can definitely happen. Some things to consider when you are evaluating the “normal-ness” of this situation:

      – has your role changed over the past five years? (new team, promotion)
      – have your managers changed because they’ve quit? been fired? been promoted?
      – what is the turnover in your industry generally like, on a scale of “everyone changes jobs every year” to “everyone works at one company for their entire career”?

      1. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

        has your role changed over the past five years? (new team, promotion)
        No
        – have your managers changed because they’ve quit? been fired? been promoted?
        2 left, the other changes we reshuffles

        – what is the turnover in your industry generally like, on a scale of “everyone changes jobs every year” to “everyone works at one company for their entire career”?
        Lots of reorgs, especially in the department I was moved to.

    2. ferrina*

      It’s a high, but it also depends on the role/department. But unless the role/dept is designed to rotate managers, that amount of turnover is burdensome.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      At my previous company, I had 17 managers in just under 15 years. 9 of those managers were from a 5 year period I worked in one group. The manager changes were due to retirement, leaving the group or the company, or reorganizing into new management subgroups. I left that group a while ago but the rotating slate of managers continued. They had 100% turnover in the past year and a half in first and second level management.

      Normal? For that company it seemed to be. I believe it was the result of promoting from a technical group rather than hiring on the basis of actual management skill, so the old fallacy of “they’re great at Technical Specialty, so they’ll be great at managing Technical Specialty.”

      OTOH, when I needed references, I had about a half-dozen managers I could ask after picking and choosing the ones I thought actually understood what I did and would be able to sincerely recommend me.

    4. Warrior Princess Xena*

      I work with a different manager nearly every week – but I do client-based team work and who is assigned on a client from week to week depends on everyone’s specialties and availability. In fairness it’s more that I’m working with the same 5-7 managers on and off throughout my time, and none of them are a direct manager – ie, someone I’m solely and directly responsible to.

      Depends on the industry though.

  102. Do you have a good manager?*

    What does a good manager do?

    I’ve been having more and more days where I find myself wishing my manager would just do…more. And yet, I can’t put it into words. Like, I want them to manage me more but I also don’t know what that means.

    To give context, I would say that I’m a high performer and my manager is pretty much hands off. My day to day is full of tasks I know I need to complete while keeping in mind some bigger/future project tasks that will be coming soon. My interactions with my manager is often them assigning me more tasks and then sometimes blindsiding me by asking me if I’ve pursued development in XYZ area or how I’m doing with Z project, something I might’ve brought up in side convo as a potential thing I’d like to do.

    What do other people’s manager do? And can anyone provide me insights on similar experience?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Sounds like your manager has the basics down for what I would consider to be a good manager:

      – makes sure their employees know how to do the work
      – assigns tasks/projects
      – makes sure employees have an appropriate amount of work (not too much to do, not too little to do)

      The next level of management is supporting the continued development of employees, which ideally looks like fairly regular conversations about what skills employees want to develop and what opportunities there are for that development at the company. Then the manager should put together the appropriate training/tasks/projects so the employee can learn the new skills. It sounds like your manager isn’t great in that area.

    2. ferrina*

      A good manager makes sure that you have what you need to do your job. They should shield you from politics as much as possible, advocate for resources and professional development, look for projects that interest you and help you grow, be genuinely interested in how they can help you grow in your role and career (if they can), and help you prioritize and balance workload so you can have a good work-life balance. They are clear with their expectations and give clear feedback often, both on positives and growth areas. They see you as an asset to the team, and appreciate your strengths and potential.

      In order to do this, a good manager keeps an eye on workload and will actively check in with you, hopefully in advance of assigning the work. “We’re going to need you to do X- do you have bandwidth? What can I reassign or drop so you have bandwidth?” They might collaborate with you on a growth plan (depending on your seniority/how much of this they will need to help facilitate, like securing funding and time).

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      It sounds like getting actionable feedback from your manager after completing tasks or training is a big missing chunk. They should be letting you know both positive and negative feedback on your job performance all along the way and not just in a formal annual performance evaluation. And they should be working with you to set big career and smaller performance improvement goals (not like a PIP for bad performance, just how to step it up to the next level). They should follow up with your progress and what both of you need to do to complete those goals — things like budget, travel, time spent, approvals, reporting back. None of this should feel like a blindside when they bring it up.

      My own experience, I had a boss and grand boss for many years that were very much like your boss — hands off, here’s your tasks, occasionally bringing up things that were mentioned off-hand but never a formal plan, professional development was my problem to solve. I thought this was great for the time and I liked my bosses, but now that I have a much more involved boss, and we discuss goals and metrics and KPIs, I sometimes feel over-managed, but also like I finally have hope of progress instead of just treading water doing the same stuff forever.

  103. Everything Bagel*

    Hi, all! I have spent a lot of time this afternoon searching for older threads about comfortable pants for women at work. eShakti is one brand I recall but what are some others? Or, how can I search on this site and get responses that may have been in open threads? Thanks!

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      You can use the “Search this Site” search bar (at the top right corner) and search for “comfortable pants” or other similar terms and it will bring up all instances of it, whether it’s in the title, the body, or someone’s comment.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        Thanks, I did use the search tool but I guess I didn’t mine through enough of the hits before bailing! I’ll spend some more time there I guess.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      Yogi Pace on Amazon are amazing. They are structured to look like work slacks but are super comfortable. I definitely recommend them! They are very long though so if you are shorter, make sure you get the petit length.

  104. Hopeful Ex Librarian*

    I have a phone interview scheduled for next week! It’s a document processor position and I’m excited.

    Even if the phone interview is all I get, this is a nice boost to my self-esteem. I’ve gotten a LOT of rejections, so I’ll take little wins. I mean, hopefully I’ll get farther than the phone interview, but for now… little wins.

    And I think my application for this position was the first time I took the advice I asked for about cover letters!

    Although I’m kicking myself…. I responded to the email and said I’m excited to talk to (persons name) and just wanted to confirm that she was calling me so I could save her number (I have my phone set up to send all unknown callers to voicemail, to reduce spam calls). Only after I re-read the scheduling confirmation did I realize it clearly says (person) is gonna call me. Whoops. :’) I hope I won’t be judged too much for that.

  105. too comfy pants*

    Has anyone developed any strategies for navigating a workplace where there are very few established processes or expectations and people just don’t communicate all that well? I’ve been here about a year and I’m starting to feel like I’m losing my grip on reality.

    Like, I know how to do *my* tasks and I’ve created documentation for everything I do. The issue is that we frequently help one another with each other’s duties and people are very very particular and things routinely spiral into long standing personal conflicts with department-wide side taking and distrust of designated scapegoat coworkers. It’s getting to the point where at least one person on my team of about a dozen is being actively bullied out of the job.

    I’ve attempted to bring up the need for better communication with my boss and coworkers and mostly the idea is balked at. Stuff like, “if you can’t do this job a manual’s not gonna help you” and “We don’t need stuff like that! We’re rockstars here!” is the reception I get.

    Part of me is tempted to just throw the whole job away.

  106. Me!*

    I didn’t get a chance to ask this last week, as I discovered it too late to post. I got an email on Friday for a short pre-screening panel interview with a state trial court system and spoke to them this Wednesday. When the screening opened, they told me they’d have only two questions, with additional questions if warranted.

    Well, that plus six people staring at me made me nervous, and my first answer wasn’t as eloquent as I wanted. But I guess they were intrigued, because several more questions from other members of the panel followed. One was “Are you local?” I said I am not, but I want to move to the area and I’m able to do so quickly, since I don’t have to break a lease or anything. (The job requires some travel and I mentioned I have a car.) When I asked for their timeline, they told me there would be more interviews and it would take some time, but they were trying to get this (new) position filled soon. They are all still hybrid or remote now.

    After logging off, I wrote a thank-you email to the panel care of the person who first emailed me and expanded on my first answer in the way I wish I had during the Zoom. I also mentioned WHY I wanted to move to the area.

    Does anyone here work in state trial court systems? Assuming they don’t ax me (I’m probably jinxing it by asking!), what can I expect in subsequent interviews? What’s it like working there?

  107. Coffee and Plants*

    Thoughts on lateral moves (with a potential small pay decrease)? I’ve been at the same company for several years and I like my manager and my team, but I’ve been getting discouraged with the position itself and I think I’m ready to make a change. I have the possible chance to make a lateral move into a different company and a different type of department, but with a small pay decrease (~4k). I tried to negotiate the base salary to be at least what I already make, but TBD if that’s approved.

    Is this a silly decision? Does it even matter?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I made a lateral move for basically the same salary as I was making. I originally expected it to be a small decrease and I would have taken it at that, but they were able to effectively match my salary. I’d say it’s worth it if a) you really need the change, as I did, b) there are opportunities to advance in the new job that aren’t available or attractive to you in the current job, and c) the raise structure is such that you’ll at least not fall behind and possibly catch up quickly to your previous earning trajectory.

    2. Anon for this*

      It’s not necessarily silly if you need a change of pace and have more chance for development in the new role, but I’d caution against it. If you’re ready for a new role, changing jobs is the best opportunity for a significant pay bump and upward growth, so I’d look into a real job search instead of just taking a lateral opportunity that came up.

    3. Alexis Rosay*

      Depends on how much you need that $4k honestly. There’s nothing wrong with taking a pay cut per se. But if you’re going from $50k to $46k it’s very different than going from $150k to $146k. If you’re at a company or department that already pays at that top of the pay scale for your industry, any kind of movement can mean taking a pay cut and sometimes that’s fine just to do something new.

  108. Uncle-to-be*

    I’m taking a four weekdays off work next month to visit my sister and her wife out of state. The timing is not great, work-wise. I’m in the arts and have three different part-time jobs, none of which is particularly happy to lose me for almost a full week. One will be starting a new school year’s program that week, for which me not being there will be a noticeable hindrance. But the dates really can’t shift — they are trying to conceive a child with my sperm using the “turkey baster” method, so the dates of my visit are determined by my sister-in-law’s ovulation cycle, which is both predictable and inflexible.

    So far in my emails I have just referred to an “unavoidable family matter” as the reason that I’ll be out of town on specifically those dates, but I’m wondering how to discuss this when it comes up with coworkers in casual conversation. My worry is that if I’m strictly non-disclosing, I will give the impression that something highly dramatic and unpleasant is going on, but I also have zero interest in sharing the reason for the timing of my trip with my coworkers — they certainly don’t need to know about my sister-in-law’s ovulation cycle, and I don’t want them to think about me masturbating into a cup! Any scripts or elegant ways of phrasing the issue that communicates “nothing you need to worry about, but yes, it is necessary?” I’d like to simply say “I’m going to visit my sister”, but worry that that will sound frivolous given the poor timing.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Family emergency / private family matter and “I don’t want to say any more.” “I don’t want to talk about it.”

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      “Just a health issue she needs my help with” should cover your bases without having to go into details! Mentioning that there’s a procedure involved (with no other details, it’s none of their business) might also solidify the timing if anyone pries further, which hopefully they won’t.

      Good luck, what a wonderful thing you’re doing for them, I hope it goes well!

    3. Girasol*

      Even the socially clueless should get the hint from “unavoidable family matter.” If they ask what it’s all about, you might repeat, “it’s an unavoidable family matter” and look sternly at them over your glasses, if you have any.

    4. Currently extending family with a known donor*

      “There’s a family thing I need to be present for, and I didn’t have input on the timing of it. I’m excited to see my sister/see a play/ride a horse on the beach while I’m there! […Receive follow-up question…] Eh, it’s just a family thing, not worth going into the details. I meant to ask you about the TPS painting schedule…” You can imply or even say you’re supporting a family member with a situation they’re going through, which is true and also leaves wiggle room for ‘don’t worry, it’s nothing dire’ and ‘they’re pretty private people, and I’m respecting their wishes by not sharing details of the situation.’

      As someone who traveled multiple months in a row to a known donor for the same purpose, two things: One, it’s a lovely thing you’re doing for them, and I hope you all have a really positive experience! Two, my unsolicited advice (sorry) is to draw up and sign a known donor agreement if you haven’t already, and float the idea of using menstrual discs instead of a cup/syringe.

      Good luck! I hope everything (including your travel) goes smoothly!

  109. feline outerwear catalog*

    My new job started this week and has been great so far! Thanks again for all your support. After getting fired, I thought I’d have to take any job and ended up at a wonderful organization!!

  110. saradactyl*

    I feel very stuck and unsure with my career and could use some advice or outside perspective on my next step.
    For background, which I will try to keep concise: I have been with my current company for going on 4 years, and it has been my second company since graduating college. In my first position with them, I worked with clients as a kind of hybrid account manager/customer or client success manager role. I did this for about 3 years and excelled, but I pretty quickly became dissatisfied with it. I started to notice issues with my current manager and the company, and I felt like I wasn’t being heard on a number of fronts – ideas for the team, ideas for the product we sold, and most importantly, ideas for my own growth. I was also underpaid.
    About a year ago I got fed up and started looking to leave the company. I had a few interviews but before I made it to the finalist round of anything, a manager in the sales team met with me privately and told me she had an opening on her team she thought I’d like. The position was for proposal writing with some sales enablement and sales engineering. I interviewed for it and was offered the position, and I was really excited about it. It was a job that I felt like lined up with my skillset, degree, and work values, and it also presented me with a new challenge to learn, as I was new to procurement and proposal writing.
    I enjoyed this work and working with my new boss from August until March of 2022, when my boss and I were unexpectedly caught in a “restructuring.” She was terminated, and our department was eliminated, along with several other roles. I was the only person in the layoff who was offered to stay on in a different department. The CFO asked the management team to offer me a position she had open because she apparently saw potential in me, which I accepted after a lot of wounded pride because I knew I needed employment.
    I’ve been doing the new position since April of 2022 and I’m not happy. I’m bored and stifled – the work is dry, easy, and repetitive (it’s basically accounts receivable, just a different title). My boss, the CFO, has almost no time to mentor me right now because these staffing changes have meant she’s handling our annual audit all by herself, but she knows I’m bored and says she’s committed to getting me out of it and into a better role when she’s done with the audit (or letting me look elsewhere and resigning).
    However, I don’t really know what I want my next step to be. I know what I like – I like problem-solving, operations and workflow improvements, data hygiene, Salesforce, and writing, among other things. I just don’t know how that translates into a new job or role yet. I don’t feel like I have enough experience in the work I was doing when I almost got fired to find a similar position elsewhere, since I only did that for about 8 months under the direction of a mentor who is no longer at the company. I didn’t love the customer success work I was doing when I first got hired, either, but I know I could do it well. I also don’t know what my options are moving forward – accounts receivable is really not my jam, but I don’t want to discount the opportunity I have to be mentored by a CFO, directly, if she thinks she can get me out of acccounts receivable into something more interesting. I also don’t really think I want to be with my company too much longer because of problems I see in upper management, but I think I have a bit of “the devil you know” sunk cost fallacy which is keeping me from applying elsewhere.
    Any advice on how to get unstuck? What kind of work is out there for someone like me?

  111. Regina*

    Today I had a preliminary phone interview for a new job! I’m excited. I am in my mid-30s and started working for my current organization 7 years ago thanks to Alison’s interview preparation guide (applied for 5 jobs, had 3 interviews, and 2 job offers!). Since working here, I’ve held two positions on two different teams, and I’ve been in my current role 4 years. During that time I’ve taken on increased responsibility, developed a portfolio of outstanding work, and had great performance reviews every year. I also get along with everyone I work with very well and feel respected by my peers and those above me.

    I love the work I do, and everything is great…except that I have never gotten a performance-based raise in 4 years, and only a COLA of 1.5% in that time. I was originally on track for receiving a small raise after a few years (probably 5% based off of what I know others had received at that time), until the pandemic hit, and then they said the budget wasn’t there for anyone to get raises for awhile (but thankfully, no layoffs). This year, our org said not to expect any raises for at least 5 more years. That means that for at least 9 years, just as I reached my 30s and have truly been excelling at my work and feeling very competent, I will not have received any increase in pay other than one small COLA. I understand that longterm, that will very negatively impact my earnings, and the cost of living is going up so much that I’m really feeling it already. I will never be up for a promotion where I am either, since the position above me is filled by someone only a couple of years older than me and they plan to stay until they retire, they’ve said.

    So I started looking for new jobs to apply for, but it’s hard, because I love my current job and want to find something I like as much. The job I interviewed for today is perfect. The position is senior level, the pay is 1.5 times what I make now, and I’ve heard nothing but great things about this company. I was told I would be recommended to move on to the next phase of interviews.

    For my next interview, does anyone have recommendations of how to talk about pay being the main or only reason you want to leave your current job? I don’t want to sound too negative, or come across like I’ll be dissatisfied anywhere after a few years, or like pay is the ONLY thing I care about. I’d just love to work somewhere that would give me new opportunities and where I’d feel like I’m always able to move forward if I’m putting in the effort.

    1. Imtheone*

      Mention some of the reasons you’ve laid out here: more opportunities, growth, looking for challenges.

    2. MJ*

      I would focus on the lack of possibility for job progression in your current position over actual pay. Most employers are more accepting of the fact that employees want to move up than that they want their compensation to increase.

  112. Alexis Rosay*

    I’m hearing a lot about companies moving to a 4-day, 32-hour workweek. I have a friend whose company did this and as a high-performer who loves her job, she actually felt frustrated by how much it slowed things down. But I know others love it for obvious reasons.

    Have you worked at a company with a 4-day, 32-hour workweek? How did it go?

    1. The Person from the Resume*

      I imagine I’d love it.

      It does depend on how it’s implemented. Is everyone off the same 3 days for the weekend? Or do they need to keep to a 5 day schedule for customers and external partners.

      As I mentioned above, many people in my org are off one weekday of every two weeks. Nearly everyone takes a Friday off, but not the same one so Fridays are slow generally with no meetings since so many people are out. If the days off are spread throughout the week it could be hard to schedule a meeting with everyone you need or you’re waiting on someone who’s out on a day you’re in.

    2. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      I worked for an org that did 4 x 10 in the summers and all offices were closed on Fridays. I loved it! It helped tremendously with childcare & most people stopped using PTO for routine appointments & started scheduling them on Fridays. Using vacation time was a tad tricky sometimes. Overall, I found myself more productive and having 3 days off really helped me decompress & come back each Monday refreshed. YMMV, of course.

        1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

          Agreed. I can’t speak to the impact of moving from a 40 to 32 hour work week, just my experiences shifting from a 5 day work week to 4.

    3. Spessartine*

      Not quite but close, the place I work is closed on Fridays and we do ~9 hour days Monday through Thursday. My previous job was more like 40-50 hours, 5-6 days a week and I NEVER want to go back to that schedule! I wouldn’t say I *love* my job, but I do enjoy a lot of it, and get along great with my coworkers. But, ya know, it’s still work, and I’d rather be doing other things a lot of the time. Having Friday off is amazing. I have the time and energy to get so much more done–housekeeping, house projects, hobbies, relaxation. I can usually schedule various appointments without having to take time off work. Of course, the flipside is that on workday evenings, I’m pretty wiped. But I was always wiped after work at my previous job, too, even if I got home an hour earlier than I do now.

      Of course, it helps that my bosses are very firm about their employees sticking to the four-day week, and not dumping so much work on us that we can’t get reasonably get it done. I work the occasional Friday for a few hours, but only voluntarily–boss has never asked me to do so.

    4. Ranon*

      I work 32 as 4 7s + 4 at a company where the norm is 40 and I love it, I’m generally efficient so I feel able to keep up with the 40 hour folks and it’s amazing how much extra time it adds to my life. My work involves lots of external folks so it’s handy to have five days available for contact but hardly anyone wants to talk Fridays anyways so I tend to knock a lot out in a short day.

  113. doubly anonymous for this one*

    I just got contacted by our Office of Diversity and Inclusion that a dotted-line report of mine (we technically both report to the same boss) got reported this morning for asking an Intern (who was working for him!) out for drinks. This is bad enough, but apparently this happened when he got her alone, away from the other 3 interns working with him, in a separate room, ostensibly to get a piece of equipment. Except, from what I understand (and I got the info 3rd hand), the piece of equipment isn’t in that room. The intern apparently burst into tears and ran out of the building.

    I got pulled in by phone because our mutual boss is on vacation until Monday. I had actually spontaneously decided to take today off, so wasn’t there to deal with the immediate fallout, though I’m sure there was some. Boss and I are meeting with ODI on Monday to figure out where to go from here. This intern is tight with the other 3, so I know they all know what happened by now.

    I think what’s surprising me most right now is that neither the intern (who I know and have worked with before) nor my colleague (who typically calls me the instant anything goes wrong) have contacted me at all. It makes me wonder what kind of havoc went down in our department today.

    People who have dealt with this before, how did it all go down? What do I do with the other 3 interns? Their internship only has another week to run.

    1. Road warrior*

      Did you see any indications of potential harassment problems with either party? There is a huge power imbalance between a senior employee and an intern, and him calling her into an empty room on a lie was EXTREMELY sketchy. I’m not a bit surprised she reacted badly and left the building.

      Once you have more of the story on Monday just be sure any actions taken are public enough the interns know your company takes possible harassment cases very seriously.

      Good luck, it sounds like you will have a quite an uproar to wade in to next week.

    2. KoiFeeder*

      She was lured into another room away from everyone else in the building by this report. She ran out of the building in tears. That is a really, really unsettling way to ask someone on a date even without the power differential in play.

      If it were up to me I would get this guy away from the interns IMMEDIATELY, and frankly I would consider offering the harassed intern the option of leaving a week early (with a good reference, if she’s earned it) if that’s what she’d like. But ODI is meeting with you on Monday, so they probably have their own opinions on how to handle things.

    3. RagingADHD*

      You have apparently worked with the interns for a while. Is this intern unhinged?

      I’m being serious. Do you have reason to think this person is severely emotionally unstable?

      Because people with average emotional regulation don’t run out of the building crying because they were “asked out for drinks.”

      I think whatever happened in that room is being severely downplayed, and you should not only look askance at the dotted-line report, but also at the person who described it that way to you.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Honestly, my assumption/fear is that these are high school/undergraduate interns and are required to fulfill this internship for graduation. Having to choose between graduation and working with the sort of person who lures interns to another room to ask them out might be emotionally fraught enough to do it.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I think it’s unlikely that “asked out” is a realistic description of what happened at all. It sounds much more serious.

          1. KoiFeeder*

            Sorry, to clarify- I really do think you’re correct. It’s just that that was the only scenario I could come up with where hearing the facts and still taking “asked out and nothing else” at face value might make sense… and even then I’m solidly on a might.

  115. Writer Claire*

    This is more a reality check than a question…

    A friend of mine recently gave notice at work. Because her new employer wanted her to start within two weeks, and because she wanted to take a week of vacation, she ended up giving 5 days notice. She had expected her health insurance would run through the end of August, but the company cut her off retroactive to the previous month. There wasn’t anything in the company handbook that covered this situation, which is why she was badly surprised.

    I assume this is legal, but I (and she) are still pretty shocked. The company generally treats their employees very well. Is this more common than we’d thought?

    1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’ve never heard of retroactively cancelling the health insurance to the previous month, even though we are only on the 5th, did she get a full refund of any premiums paid for the month of August? They should have also given her the information about COBRA. If there is a gap between now and when her new employer health plan kicks in, COBRA should cover her even though she quit.

      1. Writer Claire*

        I asked and it turns out she did get a refund, so that’s good. I did wonder about a worst case scenario. What if she’d counted on that medical insurance and scheduled one or more appointments before she found out? Sure, COBRA will cover that retroactively. It just seemed…rude is the nicest word I can come up with.

    2. WellRed*

      What is even the point of retroactively cancel long? At any rate, she is due refunds of any premiums paid. Also companies can’t retroactively change your pay, it would seem they can’t do it with other compensation but whatever, she’s leaving. A word of caution to your friend: a company that presses for a very quick start is one worth keeping a wary eye on.

      1. Writer Claire*

        Maybe the company was miffed that she gave such short notice? They’ve a reputation for treating their employees very well, with bonuses and profit sharing for everyone, and really nice benefits. At the same time, they were acquired by an international mega-corp in January, and there’s been lots of reorganization.

        New Company is a huge tech company. She’s getting double her old salary, but I suspect they’ll expect lots of overtime hours.

    3. Kay*

      I’m going to take “recently” to mean “not today”. I’m going out on a limb and guessing that perhaps this happened on Monday (the 1st) with the 5 days meaning she was only working through today, in which case I can see an employer viewing this as a particularly troublesome/hostile notice period. No matter which day this notice was provided, only 5 days notice wasn’t the best move on the part of your friend unless this workplace was toxic.

      Insurance premiums are often paid in portions each pay period – so it is likely your friend wouldn’t have been paying for her premium in full for August. Depending on when payroll/reporting is done that could be a factor-sometimes premiums aren’t paid in advance, sometimes renewals/cancellations aren’t done on the 1st, sometimes insurance doesn’t run the full month, etc. Without knowing more this could be an effort to be crappy on the part of the employer, but with 2 weeks being the standard (and sometimes required notice period for employees to receive things like a good recommendation, PTO payout, bonus payouts, etc.) your friend certainly made a risky move by providing less than that. In doing that she likely lost any goodwill that may have in other circumstances allowed her to work with the employer, for example to have insurance covered for the month.

      She should certainly review her final paycheck to make sure nothing was taken out, but I think this should be a lesson learned about the value of leaving on good terms.

      1. Writer Claire*

        I don’t work there, but based on what I’ve from her and others in the same department, they all loathe the department head. Not sure about the rest of the company. Still, as you said, she’s likely burnt her bridges at OldCompany. I’ll remind her to check her final paycheck. Thanks for the advice!

  116. MiloSpiral*

    Anyone have advice for how to tell a coworker that he needs to work faster on a shared deliverable, even though I know he is super busy as it is?

    I work in College administration, in a network of several colleges. My office runs a lot of centralized administration for each of these colleges, to different degrees. In the case of one college, my office shares the burden of an administrative process with a department at that college.

    I have a colleague who works in this department, and we share this process between ourselves. It is bottlenecking on his end. As in, what might take my office a week or two to complete if we were doing it ourselves, takes this department months. This is a compliance process so there’s no way around it, and because it’s compliance, the people on the other end–let’s call them internal clients–are stuck waiting eternally, and cannot move on with the next phase of their work without it. They ask me for updates and I have nothing to tell them. I forward them to my colleague almost certain they won’t get a response, as he usually doesn’t respond even to me.

    I know that my colleague is really, really busy. His department is seemingly flooded with work and overtaxed. We are both in agreement that it would be better if my office took on the administrative burden 100%–both my supervisor and a senior colleague have approached the department about it several times in the last six months–but the department director does not seem interested. All that said, the delay is causing our internal clients to lose faith in this compliance process, and when that happens, issues of non-compliance inevitably follow. Internal clients are understandably frustrated that they have been waiting for months to get the green light, only to find out that the light actually turned green six weeks ago and no one bothered to tell them.

    I want to be sensitive to the fact that my colleague is busy, but this is just not sustainable. Anyone have scripts that acknowledge the crappiness of the current situation, but make it clear to my colleague that he still needs to get this done much faster than he is currently? I know my colleague’s delays are a symptom of a larger problem, but we are both fairly entry-level and not in a position to fix it. The work still needs to get done.

    1. Unlucky Timing*

      Do you have the ability to create a template for these projects that lays out each step and average/expected completion time? Then maybe set up one of these deliverables according to that template and say “looks like you’d be done around Sept 8, so we’ll let the client know to expect an update by the 10th.” It could be around the guise of creating efficiency and order. Then if there was a project that overrode others there could be a specific approval process to say “it’s ok to push these off in favor of this one, even if it causes delays.”

    2. Churpairs*

      Have been in a very similar experience in higher ed. I ended up bringing in my boss and their boss to have a conversation around “when X task takes 6 weeks, it creates an issue for our clients. They come to me for a status update, and I’m unable to help them. What about this process needs to change in order for the clients needs to be met?” It wasn’t tattling or complaining – we framed it as looking for a solution for the process, not with the party that was delaying the process significantly, and with having both of our managers in the conversation, if there were real “I need help on XYZ or this can’t happen” issues that cropped up, we ostensibly had people at the table who had authority to find and enact solutions.

    3. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

      If it’s the other department’s director who doesn’t seem interested in fixing the problem by reorganizing who does the admin stuff, is there any way you can start giving out THAT person’s contact info to all these disgruntled clients? If enough people from outside of the dept kick up a fuss, will that make a dent? (I admit I’ve never worked in academia, so this might be the dumbest response ever– apologies if so!)

  117. Unlucky Timing*

    Just started a new job Wednesday—yay! As part of the negotiation process I was upfront that I have four days of planned vacations this year (2 in October, 1 falling on a holiday that we just don’t get and 2 in November). My boss acknowledged and said he appreciated me letting him know.

    Yesterday I received a Save the Date to an annual company meeting (seems to be the entire company, hundreds of people). It said travel details to follow, but the first day is one of my vacation days. I’d be returning from a trip that day with kids and there’s no way to make changes without a lot of expense and inconveniencing friends we’re traveling with. Our trip is for a date-specific event and it’s either this exact time or not at all. And of course non-refundable.

    I want to mention it upfront, remind that I already informed my boss that I have pre-existing plans, and offer to arrive on the same day as everyone else but perhaps much later. Having done a lot of these things in the past my guess is that’s a travel day with maybe evening cocktails and welcome dinner, so I don’t think I’m missing important content. I could be ready to go on the first “real” day with everyone else.

    Does this throw up any red flags? I hate being that person but I did clear this before accepting the role. How can i be diplomatic but firm? In my past life I’d probably scrap my plans and just accept that work overrides life but I don’t really live that way anymore!

    1. Churpairs*

      I don’t think it’s red flaggy. It would have been nice for your boss to follow up with you and say “Hey, I know this is one of your vacation days, here’s how that will work,” but presumably they’ve had this annual company meeting on the schedule for awhile. They may not have put two and two together, or they just might already think that it’s a non-issue. Just bring it up next time you talk to your boss, “I received the save the date – I just wanted to remind you that the first day is one of my pre-approved vacation days. I’ll be ready to go the next day.”

      2. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

        Not ted flaggy at all. Just be very matter of fact about it. Likely no big deal.

    2. Road warrior*

      People miss company meetings all the time and I doubt you will be the only one missing the first night. No red flags here.

      Talk to your boss about expectations and how the event actually goes, there may be remote attendance options available for you since back-to-back travel can be exhausting.

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