open thread – September 9-10, 2022

by Alison Green on September 9, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Maggie*

    My new boss joined the company almost 4 months ago and is a bad hire. He lacks the skill set needed and I think he fudged his resume. What should I do?

    For reference I work on an in-house marketing team, our company consists of about 5 brands. I chatted with another teammate a few days ago, and she is seeing the same issues with him.

    Even though he has been trained on basic things, he is still making mistakes and looking at the wrong metrics. Each brand has different conversions (when our product is purchased) and looking at the wrong conversions skews the data and aren’t the correct numbers sent to finance. I, and my teammate, have had to correct him but each time he blows it off or deflects. He was still doing this yesterday!

    There is a budget document our team, and other people, use that gets updated daily and finance uses those numbers for the total budget. We have very strict budget goals so it’s a very important document because it shows the daily numbers. He told both my teammate and me he doesn’t look at that document, which is concerning because I’m not confident he’s even looking at the right numbers everyday! And WE use it! As a boss he should be looped in with the documentation and pacing numbers we are using. In fact, he told my teammate not to update one of the tabs for one of the brands because he doesn’t look at it and she’s like, “what? I use that to do my job!”

    He’s at the director level and he’s getting too into the weeds of the marketing campaigns (that’s my job, and my teammates’). He’s only been with the company a little over 3 months so he does not know the businesses. He’s also making too many changes way too fast, without any testing methodology (a big no no in marketing). Even when I disagree with his direction and give reasons why, he blows it off. At least I have this all in writing. Earlier this week he told me about a big campaign set-up change (that he made last weekend…). He made it without talking with me first and, again, was looking at the wrong conversion actions so his numbers weren’t correct, I told him going forward to run things by me before doing them. He wrote back some stupid and empty response then at the end went “P.S. I won’t run things by you before implementing, but I’ll keep you in the loop about what I did and you can give feedback.” wtf

    Last week a brand director I work with reached out to me for something and when I emailed him and copied my boss, he went, “what is this for? [brand director], keep me in the loop on everything for Brand A”. Which was such an overreaction. Then this past week, he emailed us the new budgets and said in the email: “[teammate] don’t reach out to [brand director on the brand she manages] on this”. WTF! It feels like he doesn’t want us to communicate with anyone.

    I did some digging on his past positions because he clearly lacks the technical and management skills to do his job. On his LinkedIn, everything before 2016 looks fine. He has a position listed from 2016 to the same month he started at my company. When I tried to go to his old company’s website, it said the site can’t be reached. I looked on a U.S. business finder site where it says “status: inactive”. Under ‘events’, in Sept 2016: “admin dissolution for annual report”; Oct 2016: “reinstatement”, Sept 2018: “admin dissolution for annual report”.

    Now, he lists this position as up in a few months ago, but it looks like the company hasn’t been active since 2018? Our job is to send ads to a website, how could he have done that if the website doesn’t work? Something seems off…Was due diligence even done when they interviewed this guy? LinkedIn current shows 2 other people still work there, where is the website? I googled the owner of it, and there are numerous bad reviews, a few calling the owner a scam artist and how terrible the products are.

    The guy who hired him was only with the company for 6 months (another bad hire…), he decided we needed a director in his role (we didn’t). Now my boss reports to the CMO who seems very ignorant about marketing. We had a merger last year and she still doesn’t understand the businesses and doesn’t listen to people that do. I don’t think she recognizes basic paid marketing performance metric trends They’ve also cut the paid media budgets for the rest of the year, so I’m not sure how much she’ll notice.

    Yes, I’m actively applying to new jobs, more actively this week. I’m thinking if the issues keep happening, I could chat with the brand director I work with? Or I could chat with the person from finance who manages the budget doc? I could go over his head to the CMO, but honestly I don’t know how to approach that. She’s very short-sided and phony. And I don’t know if that would get me on a “bad” list. But he is doing my teams’ jobs, keeps making mistakes and seems out of his depth.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh geez. What a mess. Sounds like the new guy wants to “shake things up” to prove himself.

      In re: your final paragraph, communicate often with any trusted colleagues who you’ve worked with reliably – brand managers, finance. I wouldn’t throw shade at your new boss unless you have a really good rapport with these folks, but definitely talk about “new guy gives me conflicting direction; I’m worried the numbers are being screwed up; are you getting the info you need?”

    2. Kel*

      I was gonna say, I think much like Alison’s response a few days ago, you need to let this person get hoisted on their own petard.

      You need to let him fail and take his own accountability. Document what he’s doing, email him to get his instructions in writing etc.

    3. Roscoe da Cat*

      I would look for a new job – none of these problems are ones you can fix.

      Just document everything and make sure you can’t be blamed for when things go bad. But two bad hires in a year is worrying. Although, I will point out that your boss has the right to make decisions without looping you in – although it is not wise. He does have to inform you of the changes, but he can make them on his own authority.

      2. Anon for this*

        Yes, technically he can, but it removes autonomy and ownership from OP. I’m assuming OP is a fairly experienced and senior marketing manager. Usually this means you’re used to owning your own campaigns and marketing plans, without much input/interference from above. For your boss to come in and make changes to your campaigns behind your back is akin to your landlord coming in and remodeling your apartment while you’re out: yes, technically he has the authority to do that without telling you, but it feels very invasive and undermines your sense of autonomy. I would also be a bit “wtf?” The more respectful way would have been for the boss to tell OP what changes to make and have OP make them, since OP is responsible for the campaign.

    4. My Useless 2 Cents*

      I really hope you find something new soon. It sounds like a no win situation where anyone with authority doesn’t understand your concerns and aren’t willing to take them seriously. Keep documenting the heck out of everything and get out quick. Sorry.

    5. Bagpuss*

      Are the brand directors effectively your internal clients? If so, maybe chat with them, they may have more leverage to be able to raise concerns and go over his head to senior manangement.

      It sounds as though it may be a ‘let him visibly fail’ sitaution- in which document your concenrs (e.g. keep the emails asking him for specific information / rinstructions / raising any concenrs) but also don’t cover for him.

      I think ins some ways if you are in-house you may be able to be a bit more open with the ‘clients’ if they are part of the same company

      1. Maggie*

        while I wouldn’t call the brand managers clients, kind of? The brand manager I work closely with I do trust and I know he trusts my work, just the with the other brand manager and my teammate. I think they report to the CMO. The brand manager who my teammate works close with is actually at the VP level, and while I haven’t worked super closely with her, I worked with her when I first came to the company a few years ago, then I got moved over to the premium brand. So both my teammate and I have them probably in our corner.

    7. Tex*

      Maybe go to HR if you can trust them to be discreet. I wonder how much due diligence they did on this guy as a hire. They might also prick up their ears if they are reminded that old hire who didn’t work out hired this guy.

    8. Observer*

      Document your head off, including via emails to the appropriate people. Not in a way of complaining, but as FYI, confirmation or communications about next steps.

      But, also start looking.

    9. FashionablyEvil*

      I think you have two very separate problems here: 1) how to communicate with your boss/adapt to his communication preferences and 2) the fact that he appears to be unqualified and fabricated/significantly embellished his resume and that you have an incompetent/unlikely to be helpful grandboss.

      #2 just completely dwarfs #1 to the extent that I think your only real option is to leave.

    11. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Try not to conflate the company’s success in this instance with your personal success as a professional. Because…they aren’t giving you the leadership or tools to succeed, and there’s only so much you can overcome.

      I agree with you- keep looking at options, and jump if the right situation comes along. They way you describe things…it sounds like you might be ready for more responsibility aligned with your bosses position anyway.

      If it’s as bad as you say, this has an expiration date. Presumably, your finance team is competent and these numbers won’t add up. Presumably, your clients will not appreciate working with a jerk and will not hesitate to either notify leadership or switch to a competitor. Presumably, your coworkers are also looking, and senior management will put those pieces together. Things generally sort themselves out- the business world is ruthless, marketing doubly so. But unfortunately, it’s not always on our timeline.

    12. Anon for this*

      I’m in a similar situation as you, although without the potential resume fabrication. Your best bet is probably to transfer or get out. That’s what everyone on my team did within 6 months of my current boss joining. I’m sticking it out because I was here first and I’m more stubborn than the others. But I will admit that every week brings new aggravations. I cope thru a combination of managing upwards, taking matters into my own hands, and hedging on or outright ignoring ill-advised instructions. You gotta pick your battles, conserve your patience because it will run out.

  2. Heather M.*

    Should I modify my job title on my resume to better describe what I do?

    My job title is “Client Experience Coordinator” for a national hair restoration and replacement company. Sounds a bit vague though, right? My responsibility consists of handling the front desk duties and mail room support for our clients. However, everyone at our regional location shares the same CEC job title — from the stylists, to customer service reps, to me at the front desk. I want to start a new job search soon and am considering altering my resume’s job title to something like “Client Experience Coordinator – Front Desk” or even simply “Client Experience Coordinator – Mailroom Assistant” to better reflect what I actually do on a day-to-day basis.

    I’m an introvert who is already wore out by the constant face-to-face interaction with customers and other corporate executives on a daily basis, so I plan on venturing into a more full-blown mail clerk role at my next job. I just truly like doing that kind of work more. Would this be a good explanation in answering the “why are you looking to leave this job?” when asked by future employers on my upcoming job search? Just saying that I’m doing receptionist and mail room duties now, and that I want to concentrate more on just doing mail?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I think adding the clarification would be fine — in my division there are three of us who are Specialized Crockery Managers for various teams, and we distinguish ourselves as SCM – Coffee Carafes, SCM – Teapots, and SCM – Sugar Bowls and Creamer Pitchers. But do leave your official title on there first, with the clarification to follow.

    2. Kel*

      I think specifying exactly what you do could be helpful, since you’re not changing the job title; you’re adding to the title.

      For the second part, I totally get what you’re looking for. Is there a way to phrase it to focus on what you’re good at and what you want and push that vs. not wanting to do front-facing jobs? Like ‘the organization and structure of the mailroom really appeals to me’ or ‘i really find my strengths lie in the mailroom aspect and i want to pursue that further.’

      1. Robert*

        Based on your personality and mannerisms, they may realize why you’re looking to move on without even having to explain it. I would imagine that most hiring managers can spot an introvert from a mile away!

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      You should leave your title as what your employer says it is so there isn’t any discrepancy, but the bullet points on your resume would show what you do, or more importantly, your accomplishments at what you do — the size of the mail distribution, deliveries are on-time, etc.

      1. Artemesia*

        It is fine to put the preferred or more descriptive title in parentheses after the official title — she wants it there where people see it — they may not read further down. The main thing is you cannot change your title, but you can do Rockstar Omega (mail sorter) with no issues.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yeah, I would recommend this. Put your actual job title but then put in parentheses what the more common job title is for that set of responsibilities. This helps to both help you past lazy screeners and also to make it easier for people to make sense of the discrepancy between your actual title and your actual responsibilities.

      2. JSPA*

        Parentheses or brackets–holding a sentence or phrase rather than a few words that could be mistaken for part of the official title– can also work.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Would this be a good explanation in answering the “why are you looking to leave this job?” when asked by future employers on my upcoming job search? Just saying that I’m doing receptionist and mail room duties now, and that I want to concentrate more on just doing mail?

      This is a good answer to the question. And you can tack on a sentence along the lines of “I am particularly excited about this job because ____.” Companies generally care way more about why you are excited to come work for them then why you are leaving your last job.

    5. learnedthehardway*

      I think you should, yes – you’re not changing your title / role. You’re just providing detail so people know what you do. Recruiters will very likely appreciate you doing so, and you’ll get contacted for the roles you are qualified for, rather than the ones you aren’t.

      I’m running into this exact issue right now with a difference between “client experience” as it relates to “customer service” versus the “client experience” marketing function that deals with customer journeys (among other things).

    6. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Q1 yes, that’s totally fine.

      Here are examples of when it would matter. First, you don’t want to throw off your references- the first question they’ll ask is, “Can you verify Heather M. worked as ‘Client Experience Coordinator – Mailroom Assistant’ at XYZ, inc.?”

      Second, I’d be slightly more careful for any position that includes a background check. They will contact HR at your former employers and you need to list a position they can verify. But generally, this happens after initial interview, and you’re offered a form where you can provide more specific information.

      Q2 Also ok. But, remember, you’re not on the stand :) and you can color your response a bit so it doesn’t sound like you’re looking for less responsibility. Try to articulate reasons that align your professional goals with their need. E.g., “I have an aptitude for organization, I really enjoy mailroom work, and I felt this position would offer me more independence to implement my ideas.”

      1. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

        Genuine question, is someone who wants “more independence to implement [their] ideas” going to be an appealing candidate to a company looking to hire a mailroom assistant? I personally haven’t worked in a mailroom, but I’ve known folks who have, and I’ve also done receiving for retail. All I’ve ever heard of/seen is places where there are already systems in place that the higher-ups are pretty resistant to changing. I just worry that unless they’re explicitly looking for someone to revamp their system, they’re not going to be excited to hear that you have “ideas”.

  3. Green Goose*

    I work from Company A full-time and I’m about to go on maternity leave. I’ve always enjoyed writing and have wanted to write professionally since I was a teen. Recently, Company B hired me to do some very part-time paid writing (2-4 billable hours a month) and I was/am so excited. I’ve done this for one month and was planning on doing this for part of my maternity leave, but have gotten some conflicting information if I can do this during my maternity leave.

    I definitely don’t want to do anything illegal but this opportunity will not still be available if I can’t do it until my maternity leave is over. Does anyone know if this is okay?

    1. Friendly Internet Stranger*

      Will you be using short term disability while you are on maternity leave? There was a question Alison answered recently about working while on disability… let me see if I can find it.

      If you won’t be using short term disability, I can see any reason at all why it would possibly be an issue.

      1. Green Goose*

        That is part of my leave. I believe the first 2.5 months and I was not planning on doing any writing during that time. This is my second so I know how intense the first two months are and don’t want to overcommit.

    2. NICS*

      1) You could call a legal advice line (there’s usually one in each region) for one question or a quick free meeting with an employment lawyer. That said
      2) I doubt this kind of side hustle is illegal in the USA, but IANAL. that said
      3) In some ways babies are more trouble on the outside. Think about how much time and energy you’ll have to write while dealing with a demanding and adorable new person who is no longer physically connected to you for nourishment and rocking.
      4) Good luck and congratulations!

      1. NICS*

        I forgot 5) Make sure that working doesn’t conflict with company policy or short term disability regulations.

        1. Green Goose*

          My company just says it can’t be a conflict of interest. I got verbal permission from my previous boss who is now no longer with my organization. The part about SDI is the part I’m unclear about and I don’t really want to ask our HR department because they are being kind of frustrating with my leave stuff already.

          2. anon for this*

            You can call customer service at the insurance company – tell them you’re planning your leave and want to make sure you understand what’s allowed under the policy. They’re usually able to explain it in layperson terms or put you in touch with someone who can help.

    3. Savvy*

      It’s not illegal on the federal level, and I think it’s unlikely a state would have a law against it (but always good to double check your state). This would be a policy question – does your employer have a written policy prohibiting or limiting outside employment while an employee is on a leave of absence, FMLA, disability? Considering how minimal it is (2 – 4 hours a month – and maybe less considering you will be busy with a newborn), I’m not sure it’s even worth bringing up to your employer, but if you want to be careful then check your policies.

    4. Coconut Parade*

      If you run out of time/energy to figure it out before your leave starts, would it be reasonable to offer to do the relevant months for free (to not lose out), and then return to billable once you’re back at work? Obviously not ideal, but just helping you brainstorm. :)

      1. Green Goose*

        Appreciate the brainstorming! One idea I had was to pre-write a few assignments before my leave officially starts and then they can publish after my leave starts. Then I’ll be taking off 2.5 months from writing but wanted to start again about 2 months before my official maternity leave from Company A ends and ask Company B to not pay me until I’m back. It’s a really small amount of money, so that’s not really why I’m doing it. I’m doing it because I love writing and the subject matter, and I want to network and Company B is a great connector.

  4. Anon Babyface*

    TL;DR: My early-career personality is coming back to bite me, and I don’t know how to fix it. 

    I’ve been at my current employer (higher ed) for about 9 years now, which is also where I went to college. I get stellar annual reviews and positive feedback from my ‘customers,’ and I’m proud of my work. Unfortunately…I’ve been here for 9 years, and I was a different person when I started — immature, oversharing, and still learning to separate my professional from my student self. In general, I’m also one of those people who looks younger than I am — so add in my over-enthusiastic personality and I came across as VERY young. 

    Over time, I’ve received feedback to “try to seem older,”  including in otherwise-complimentary reviews, and I’ve taken this to heart and worked hard to reform my image. I’m really embarrassed about my past behavior. But, there’s not a lot of turnover among the more ‘established’ staff, so most of my colleagues knew that immature version of myself. People like me personally, but I sometimes feel that I am not taken very seriously and easily dismissed– treated like I’m very young instead of mid-30s and mid-career for my field. It doesn’t help that ageism (the legal kind) is…pretty rampant in my workplace, and that many colleagues have children my age. Folks in my own generation/life stage haven’t tended to stick around as long. 

    I acknowledge that this is completely my own fault, and I am looking for other jobs where I could start over, but that’s a very slow process in my field, and there aren’t many options right now with comparable pay/benefits/etc. So while I’m still here: any advice for how I can move past those immature early years? My supervisor insists everything is fine but it’s very obvious to me that it’s not and that I am treated with less respect than others, including colleagues who do not have my track record and/or years of experience. 

    1. NICS*

      I had a similar issue — my first two jobs were at the university where I graduated. When I went to the second job in the same department/with many of the same people, I ‘renamed’ myself — I started using a longer, more formal variant of my name (fortunately I have a long name that can be carved up like a turkey into many different nicknames). That, plus adjusting my dress to be a bit more formal (I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate pantyhose but it helped) seemed to make a plurality of people take me more seriously. I did eventually end up leaving for a different organization, but it mostly wasn’t due to my early immaturity.

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      No ideas, but sympathy. That is one reason I’m skipping my HS class reunion next month. The first time I went to one, which was our 40th (I think), I wanted to show off the New Lady Lessa, who is much more confident and out going than the HS Lessa. Did not work.

      Tried again at another one, same experience.

      Will not try again.

      I wonder if part of the problem is that a lot of them were friends back then, stayed friends and didn’t get too far away. I wasn’t part of that group, and I have never lived in that area since college.

    3. Green Goose*

      I think with all that you wrote, maybe it’s time to move on? I don’t say that lightly because I know finding a new job is not as easy as snapping your fingers and Viola a new job is there. My three closest friends all work in higher education at our local flagship university and experienced this to varying degrees. They all needed to move around to get better jobs and more respect. One of them stayed at her first post grad job for almost 15 years and it was similar to you, she was getting so overworked (the way a green employee who had to prove themselves would be overworked) and she finally left, which was hard for her but she’s at a much more relaxing position now and has a better work/life balance and is treated with much more respect.

      1. Nonners*

        I agree with this (and absolutely empathize with the original question). I’m a babyface, too, and higher ed staff really stick around forever and I absolutely see ageism everywhere. I’m FINALLY getting to be old enough that it’s less of a thing (and I have a kid so that helps a bit with perception) but…yeah. It’s a thing, it’s real.

        Generalizing here, but it’s a decent time to move around in higher ed as it’s also been impacted by the Great Resignation. I think it depends on how large a barrier this is to your career growth. I finally got an opportunity here due to turnover–is that likely to happen for you? With old management in place I doubt I would have gotten this opportunity. Otherwise I’d absolutely be looking.

        Honestly it’s SO incredibly common to stagnate in higher ed, and with your specific context, I’d move. I would honestly never want to work where I went to undergrad–I like barriers and separation and I was such a different person at that age. 9 years is a good time to explore a new place/new challenges. Also, higher ed typically means you have to move jobs to get a real salary increase. Get a bump and your future self will thank you.

      2. Quinalla*

        Sometime you have to move on from a “starter job” to get more respect and it sucks. I would try a few things if you are willing – don’t do any of this stuff if it won’t work for you but I’ve had success with some of these myself:
        1. New hair cut – some hair cuts just seem younger or older to people, fair or not
        2. New wardrobe – take it up to the next level, if you wear jeans and tshirts normally, take it to business casual, if business casual, throw on a suit jacket
        3. Change your look in other ways – accessories, bag/purse, etc.
        4. Try to get put on a new project/team/etc. with people who don’t know you as well and knock their socks off. Get some allies in the changing hearts and minds mission.
        5. Take a new approach at work, try to identify if there are any lingering phrases you use, over enthusiasm, etc. that is reminding people of you from 9 years ago and try to change those things.
        6. If people are dismissing you, call them out right in the moment or follow up soon after one on one. Remind them you have 9 years of experience.
        7. Your other peers, maybe make a pact to help boost each others ideas. Sometimes you can raise the importance level of someone’s idea just by backing it up.
        8. Try and get a conversation going with someone else in the system that has BTDT and if there are any good ways to move from Fresh face to experienced in folks eyes there that they’ve seen work.

        And yes keep looking because it sounds like the culture there is inhospitable at the moment. I’d keep trying to change what you can while you are there and see if you can get anywhere, but don’t stop looking. I know I really felt a huge “level up” when I moved on from my started job of 13 years and when I made an effort at work to show people what I could do and push back when dismissed, I “leveled up” again here recently in people’s eyes. It is much harder to do when you are in a company already, but it can be done.

    4. J.B.*

      Who is doing the treating differently? Is there someone you could reasonably approach other than your boss about how to address this problem?

      1. Anon Babyface*

        Some of it is coming from my boss (who is also dismissive when I ask for constructive feedback), most of it from others in my department. A small amount from a select group of faculty, but that I can deal with (and some of that is inevitable without a PhD). I do have peers that have confirmed they’ve noticed what I’m seeing, so it’s not all in my head, but they don’t think I’m doing anything wrong.

        I struggle with knowing who else to ask. The hierarchy in my department is pretty condensed — my boss reports to the department director, who reports to a VP at the university level (someone staff at my level would never have direct interaction with). My boss has one peer, but that person is one of the worst ‘offenders’ and is not someone I could ask.

        1. J.B.*

          it’s academia which is definitely weird and people stay forrrevvvver. can you move to a different department?

    5. learnedthehardway*

      Looking for a new role is definitely one way to deal with this issue. It may be the best way, but you could also do some things to change the perception at your current company, while you’re at it.

      You might also talk to a mentor (not your manager, but someone a couple levels above you in the business, who you respect) about how you’re coming across to colleagues, etc. Ask for their honest opinion. Perhaps you’re not coming across as maturely as you feel you are. If they feel you’re still not coming across well, ask their advice and implement it. Or perhaps discussing your career goals, etc. and your challenges will help that person see that you HAVE progressed and they can influence how others perceive you. (Just make sure it is someone who is well respected in the business themselves, and who seems to be supportive of you.)

      You could also look at doing some education / certifications in your field, if you haven’t already done so. That may help some, esp. if people in your industry commonly consider a certification a plus (and it could help your job search).

      You mention that you’re very enthusiastic – perhaps dial that back a bit. Not eliminate it, but take a breath before enthusing, and make substantive comments, not just general expressions of support/agreement. Eg. instead of “Wow, that’s a great idea! We could do this, that and the other!!!” add in some analysis: eg. “this proposal would cost $X, but would deliver $Y, which looks good, if we can do it in Z months. After that, the cost / benefit starts to slip.” Showing that you are putting real thought into your support, in other words.

    6. Just Your Everyday Crone*

      I think you take too much blame on yourself. If people can’t reflect that you’ve changed in nine years (9! years!), that’s on them. I think there’s a good mix of ageism and stodgy culture in there with whatever youthful indiscretions you may have committed. And sexism, I’m guessing, maybe too. “Seem older” is not legit feedback. Specific things, like use “like” less as a filler, don’t upspeak at the end of a sentence, are fine, but “your face needs more lines on it” is absolutely not. I think you need to keep looking and maybe look for a culture that allows a little more expressiveness, in keeping with your personality. Meanwhile, the only thing I can suggest is asking your boss for more specific feedback about what is coming across as young/unprofessional.

      1. Doctor Whom*

        This. What does “seem older” even mean? Tie an onion to your belt? Occasionally yell at clouds? I’d start with finding a mentor or colleague who could give you some specific, actionable, and objective feedback, if your boss isn’t willing to do it.

      2. KatieP*

        This. Anon Babyface, this isn’t your doing. This is part of maturing, and your colleagues should recognize it.
        I’ve worked in higher ed for a couple of decades, and I sympathize – I faced something similar at a department I worked in for 15 years. They just never could seem to understand that 40-year-old KatieP =/= 25-year-old KatieP.
        Don’t wait as long as I did. Move now.
        I moved to a completely different unit that had zero crossover with the old one, and finally got to bring all the rest of the stuff I was to my office and be appreciated for it! After ten years of career stagnation, moving departments led to two promotions in 5 years, and increasing responsibility in a career that excites me again.
        I’m also trying to use it as an example of how not to manage an employee.

    7. Savvy*

      Is the way you are perceived actually inhibiting your ability to be effective at your job, or blocking career progression that you would like to make? I’m curious about some examples of others treaing you “with less respect than others,” what does that look like exactly? It’s hard to tell if it’s having a measurable impact on your career or if it’s just based on the opinions of a few coworkers who don’t really matter. So that is something to consider – if they want to think you are young and immature, but you are continuing to be a rock star at your job and your boss thinks you’re doing well, then screw them and just keep on keepin’ on. However, if you think it’s really having a tangible impact on your professional growth and want to actively work to overcome it, I think the best strategy is just to win people over by demonstrating with your work performance, behavior, and appearance that you are mature, professional, and need to be taken seriously. Could you step up your professionalism a couple of notches in a few areas, for instance, speak and write with confidence and use language that sounds more formal, dressing just slightly more professional than most of your coworkers (especially any younger ones – you want to differentiate yourself as much as possible from them), if you ever run meetings, make sure you have an organized, written agenda that you share with everyone to show that you are prepared and value their time. Those are just a few ideas, and since I don’t know your industry I’m not sure how relevant they are, but maybe you could think of other ways where you could ramp your professionalism up just slightly

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I am curious about examples also.

        I remember how much my 20s and 30s sucked because of dealing with this stuff. On top of being a woman and all that complexity.

        I can’t tell you it will be better some place else because this stuff just creeps in. But I also don’t know exactly what your boss is telling you so that is a factor that is important.

        You’ve been there nine years? Can you take on a project that would put your work efforts more to the foreground? Can you volunteer for an activity where others need you in some manner? Sometimes we can sway people by working right beside them on something. When they see who we are and how we operate they settle down and behave themselves.

        In a simple example, in some places I have volunteered to hold a spare key that everyone needed to access something. This gave me an excuse to chat with a good number of people and it was a chance for them to get to know me a little. Here the important point is that it put me with people outside of my own department. This can be a powerful tool if others who are not in your immediate group know you and have some awareness of your efforts.

        I don’t think you can change everyone’s behavior. It might be useful to set a goal to reduce it by x%. How much of a reduction would be noticeable to you and would make a difference for you?

        People who actually know us are less apt to judge us on superficial things.

      2. Anon Babyface*

        That’s a good question! It hampers me in quieter ways — ideas being dismissed in meetings; getting chastised for bizarrely minor things (like…font choice on a sign, minor); juggling a crushing workload that is barely noticed while others are constantly praised for their accomplishments; not being selected for leadership roles on committees. And, morale. It’s not inhibiting progression directly in part because there isn’t much room for progression in my current position (which is fine, because another level up would be a different job that I don’t want really). But, it’s a bit of a morale killer to know that “if Boss gave notice today, I probably wouldn’t be considered for her job because half the department wouldn’t take direction from little ol’ me.”

        I’ve been working on trying to speak more confidently. Wardrobe I’ve definitely addressed — I’ve tried every variation from pencil skirts and pantyhose (way out of sync with my department’s culture, and impractical for my job) to jeans and sweaters; haircuts; jewelry; makeup. I’m known for being super organized — just, like in a “cute” kind of way if that makes sense? (not that I’m passing around pink scented agendas or anything like that!…more that it seems to come across as a cute quirk rather than a professional asset).

    8. TechWorker*

      I don’t have amazing advice because I think what made the most difference for me was just ‘getting promoted’ – I think that gave me quite a confidence boost and I tend not to worry about seeming young so much. (Though covid did also give me a chance to reset my wardrobe and I definitely dress a bit more professional now – no more hoodies!)

      Good luck with your job hunt – I think it’s pretty exhausting to feel like you have to prove yourself, so a new start might make all the difference.

    9. Star Struck*

      Thats annoying. In addition to modulating your mannerisms, voice, and appearance, would it help to explicitly refer to your tenure… bringing up things that happened in olden times? Eg. “The last time xyz happened was 9 years ago – I think we handled it by doing [blah blah blah].. has anyone kept up with him since he retired ?”

    10. seps*

      Similar thing happened to me, but instead of trying to seem older, I just… stopped letting people shit on me for being “young” and “inexperienced” and “not a PhD” when it suited them (they didn’t appreciate that). I switched departments for two years (different field, different division of the university and everything, no crossover with my contacts) and recently returned to the one I started in, but reporting to a different faculty member. Everyone remembers the things they loved about me (energy, great work) but now realize I am a fully grown adult. The people who were maddest about me setting appropriate boundaries are still big mad, but they are no longer my concern.

    11. Somehow_I_Manage*

      May I suggest you begin graying and thinning your hair in earnest? ;)

      The simple answer to this is to just be REALLY good at your job. The scoreboard won’t lie, if you’re constantly crushing it. But I concede- easier said then done if they’re actively holding you back.

      While a few folks are suggesting you leave…if you’re mid-30s and they’ve got kids your age, at this point, you can possibly wait ’em out. In 5 years, they’ll all be in their mid-70s, and you’ll be sitting pretty in your prime, overseeing the new crop of young bucks.

      Finally- give yourself a break. If I acted like I was 35 when I was 22…life would be boring. Academics in particular have an irrational disdain for their students (the phrase “ivory tower” comes to mind). I’d be certain some of that spills over into the way they treat young people in general. Haters are going to hate.

    12. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      A former colleague of mine had a team member she tended to dismiss easily and considered to have a “negative” personality, so she wouldn’t consider the employee for promotion. I had worked with the person in question and didn’t think they were negative at all! I later learned they had been louder and not savvy about workplace politics when it came to difference of opinion in the past, but they had grown up a lot. But they were working for a boss who still saw them one way.

      It’s not everyone. Just be aware that some of your co-workers may similarly not be very self aware or willing to change their minds. Many of the suggestions above are great to help with this in general – dressing a step above your colleagues, preparing for meetings with written notes, agreeing with other people’s ideas verbally and with body language, sending detailed memos or outlines about upcoming projects etc. Just remember some people will recognize the growth and others unfortunately may never see you in that new light.

      If there are more people at your workplace in the second category, or if the people in that category are the ones with the ability to help or hinder advancement, it may add some urgency to your job hunt or push for a new department. If there are fewer, it’s less of a problem and you can put their opinions to the side (still hard to do, just less consequential for your career).

      To be clear, I’m on your side here and this is B.S.

    13. Irish Teacher*

      To be fair, I don’t know if it’s COMPLETELY your fault. I know I do sometimes struggle a little to see some of my late-20s colleagues who have been working with us a number of years as fully-fledged professionals because they came to us straight out of college and…5 years isn’t that much of a professional journey for me now – being qualified for 18 years isn’t that much different from being qualified for 13 – so I have to remind myself that it IS for them and that they are not the same people who came to me for advice when they were starting out.

      I do not treat them the way you are being treated – at least I hope I don’t – but mentally, I have to make a conscious switch from “newly qualified colleague who needs some support” to “established professional in the field.”

      I mean, yeah, mid-30s is different from mid-to-late 20s, but I am just saying that I think a certain amount is your colleagues not making the effort to make that mental switch and remind themselves that immature and inexperienced at 23 does not mean being the same at 33 and that we were all there once. Some of us were just lucky enough to get it out of the way in a different place to where we currently work.

      I’m not sure this is much help, but just to say that making mistakes in the early years is normal and while it can take a mental switch on the part of those who knew you then, they should be doing it and it’s not your fault they haven’t.

  5. Melanie Cavill*

    What are your general feelings on workplaces where management is given the resources for hybrid work but non-management staff are expected to be fully in the office? Assume in this hypothetical that there’s nothing specifically about the work that would require their in-office presence (as opposed to, say, a welder or a high school teacher or an astronaut).

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      That sounds like my former (pre-COVID) workplace. It was pretty ridiculous. Especially since we live in an area where winter weather can affect whether you can come into the office. My area was responsible for some set federal deadlines & a couple times this policy negatively affected that. But I figured the company dug its own grave there.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Agreed. There’s a lot of “it sucks to be you attitude” that rains down from above.

    3. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      That sounds stupid. Like I want to be able to lay in bed and work if I have a stomach ache or have fewer respiratory viruses. It’s just less efficient all around

    4. ecnaseener*

      If there’s truly no reason why non-managers need to be in the office, super annoying and gotta be terrible for morale.

      The only work-related reason I miss being in the office (ie other than socializing etc) is face time with my manager.

    5. Grey Squirrel*

      I feel very, very negatively about this. I hate business jargon/pithy sayings, but I am a fan of “Leaders Eat Last.” There is no reason management should get perks that other employees don’t if hybrid work is feasible for non-management staff.

    6. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I side eye these employers pretty hard, and one of the employers I’m side-eyeing is my own.

      A few weeks ago, I was leading an interview panel that would be interviewing 22 people over the course of two days. I frequently get interrupted to deal with customer issues throughout the day, and my office is really close to the customer floor, so it gets noisy sometimes. I asked for permission to work from home for the days of the interviews, and I was told that work from home was only being granted for people who had tested positive for covid but didn’t have symptoms and still wanted to work. Imagine my astonishment when the day after I was told this, I attended a virtual meeting where it was extremely obvious that at least two people who are the same level as me were working from home. Or when, on the first day of the interviews, the person leading the pre-interview meeting was able to take the 7:30 AM meeting from home while the rest of us had needed to come in to work an hour early for it.

      I think I would have been less upset about my request being denied if that denial hadn’t come with such an obvious lie.

      1. Venus*

        Alison had a post about current workplace rebellion and the big one was that employees were being ‘forced’ to go in to work and… they weren’t going. They had no good reason to go in, and they were in jobs that have high enough demand that they were unlikely to get fired.

    9. Quinalla*

      Not some place I would be interested in working and if my workplace tried to pull some BS like that, I’d call it out.

    10. This Old House*

      I get some perks being available to management more than to non-management, but especially when it’s a hard-line requirement, in these post-COVID days, it seriously impacts morale. (Source: not management at a workplace where this is the case)

      We’re being told by HR that we can eg either come to work with cold symptoms or use sick days, and meanwhile the head of HR is in the office . . . quite infrequently. Some managers let their staff work from home, but we’ve been explicitly told they have no authority to do so. Some departments are told they can UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES work from home, while others have a lot of flexibility as long as they keep it under the radar. Some people have hard external deadlines that will not wait for cold symptoms to pass or the roads to clear and know that their job requires they do the work anyway, while also knowing they are not allowed to do the work, and the whole system – where those people are expected to work from home but have also been told they are not to work from home – causes unfair confusion. It causes resentment from staff against the administration, and between staff members who are subject to different, confusing, unevenly enforced rules.

    11. aubrey*

      My feelings are very negative haha. I think the only reason people should be required to be in the office ever is if there’s an actual real business need, but if a company is going to require hybrid or in office when there’s no real need, it should require it fairly of everyone. It’s just demoralizing when regular workers are punished with nonsense requirements that don’t apply to managers.

    12. Doctor Whom*

      Sometimes the thinking is that management is usually salaried exempt, so their actual hours don’t have to be tracked as closely as long as their responsibilities are being met. Non-management is often hourly non-exempt, so it’s more important to make sure their actual hours at work are clocked, which is more difficult to do if they aren’t in the office.

      Not saying it’s necessarily right, or that there aren’t ways to make it work, just that this is sometimes the rationale.

    13. RagingADHD*

      If you mean specifically about resource allocation? It sounds completely normal for management to have more resources allocated to their work, more freedom of movement, more discretion over how and where to get their work done, and more flexibility to their schedule than line staff have.

      I have never worked anywhere that wasn’t the case in some way or another.

    14. Glad it's the end of the week...*

      The whole “rules for thee but not for me” mindset about remote and hybrid work and a person’s place in the organization is quietly becoming a morale issue at MPOW. Only a couple areas are really doing well with remote work. The areas that aren’t handling it well are HR and leadership, two areas that create work policies and lack the awareness that they aren’t executing their own policies well at all.

      I’m in public higher ed in a state with a Democratic governor in a tight reelection. I’m worried that if the Republican, a businessman who is the product of nepotism and has no prior experience working in the public sector, that the state workers who got any form of remote work approved will lose that perk. The Republican’s campaign strategy seems similar to Glenn Youngkin who won in Virginia with a wolf in sheep’s clothing strategy to conceal his far right extremism.

      I have other issues with our HR, especially in how they seem to manage their priorities. It says a lot about how rank and file staff that make the organization function are viewed when HR has time to conduct a sham investigation that verges on a witchhunt on a whistleblower but can’t find the staff time to get hiring paperwork done for part time staff needed for the organization to function efficiently.

    15. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      You say “managers are given resources for hybrid work.” You mean like laptops with a VPN? Are the staff made to use something different like a desktop computer? You say staff “could” do their job from home, but can they really if the tool is not provided?

      Ideally, staff ought to have the same resources as managers that could enable hybrid work.

      I can tell you (I work for a tech company that provides tools & systems) that there might be workplaces where this is an expensive or difficult proposition to equip ALL the staff, and that may be why they don’t. Thus, it’s a manager level perk.

      Now, if all things are equal and everyone potentially has the access to the same tools, but still aren’t allowed to work remotely on occasion, I would say it isn’t fair or productive. Employees could push back by asking for a policy that allows WFH in certain requested/needed circumstances, at the very least.

      3. HE Admin*

        It lasted three days. Weirdly saying he needed to step away meetings and then asking to reschedule them, etc. Didn’t show up for an in-person day (we have a hybrid schedule). When reminded that this is a full-time job (and really does have full-time work associated with it) said that his manager (not me) was being hostile, and quit. So definitely a case of “working two jobs but not well” rather than “was doing fine and fired on principle.”

        2. Put the Blame on Edamame*

          I’m increasingly convinced that a hire in my last department was doing this, very similar behaviour. He left before passing probation so I’ll never know.

        3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          I can’t imagine the cheek of being in the first 3 days of a new job and acting like it’s appropriate to reschedule a meeting. I mean, what’s the pressing business concern that would justify that during the earliest of onboarding? Other than, you know, having another job.

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Two full time jobs? How’d they get caught? Can you allude to what the field is? Very curious.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Yikes!

      I honestly don’t know how people manage this. My job is not super intense, but if I had to do two of them and try to coordinate meetings not to conflict with each other (or juggle two simultaneous meetings), I couldn’t do it.

      Plus, I just don’t think it’s ethical two work two full-time jobs at the same time without disclosing to both employers that you are.

      1. Weaponized Pumpkin*

        There must be a correlation between number of meetings & success at juggling two jobs. I’ve had remote knowledge type jobs that had at most a few meetings a week, and i mainly worked independently — I’d have been able to dual-track two of those without direct conflict. Right now I’m in one that has multiple meetings a day — it would be impossible to meet my obligations for two jobs like this without inconveniencing others.

  7. Let's Talk About It*

    My colleague was invited to a meeting with supervisor and HR, probably about a new role in the organization. They have been told not to share any information. Is this legal? It doesn’t involve trade secrets, confidential information, NDAs or anything of the kind. They are probably being offered a new role and maybe a raise under a hurried restructuring.

    If you’re allowed to share your salary why wouldn’t you be allowed to share this? Or do they just say this to scare people — like they might rescind the offer if you spill. This is not the first instance of this happening. And if it is allowed, under what law? This is the US.

    1. londonedit*

      I can’t really think of any reason why it would break a law (I’m not in the US, but still) and I wouldn’t be surprised if a company did this – when there are things like restructures afoot, it’s extremely common for higher-up management to keep things quiet until the details are worked out. If your colleague’s new job is part of a bigger-picture thing that isn’t all finalised yet, I don’t think it’s surprising at all that they’ve been asked to keep quiet. Companies don’t want to alarm staff unnecessarily by having rumours and speculation flying around about someone having a new job and someone being called into a meeting and what do you think is happening – until they have all the details sorted and they can present it all as a package, they generally do try to keep things under wraps.

      1. Alternative Person*

        Yep. I’m involved in a reshuffle right now and I can’t talk about it to anyone outside of the people in the know which is not fun for me because I desperately want to reassure people that things will get better soon (hopefully), but until all the pieces are in place I have to keep quiet.

        I get that it’s also definitely not fun for the people who are feeling the scale of the issues/tension in the department right now, or for the people who know/suspect something is going on behind the scenes but aren’t a part of it, but that’s the way these things tend to go.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      It doesn’t sound like they’re legally prohibited from sharing, but rather that the company doesn’t want them to share it. It’s way easier for management to control the narrative and avoid answering tough questions when they scare their employees with “do not share OR ELSE” edicts. On the flip side, your coworker might not want to share what the meeting was about and is using management as an excuse.

      1. Let's Talk About It*

        I feel like it’s a control the narrative situation and to try to scare people. For context, it’s a library!
        And the colleague is already sharing the ‘secret’ meeting was scheduled.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Was it said in a threatening way? “Keep this under your hat” is not an uncommon request before news is official.

        2. Doctor Whom*

          It’s very often just because there is/was another internal applicant or hopeful who didn’t get the job/promotion/whatever, who HR or management wants to talk to before the news is public. It’s sometimes simply that a supervisor wants to announce it themselves at a particular time or meeting. Occasionally it’s because it will raise questions about someone else’s employment or plans that they aren’t ready to address publicly.

          In my experience it usually isn’t anything nefarious, unless the organization is wildly dysfunctional.

        3. RG2*

          Controlling the narrative and trying to scare people are two totally different things. It’s super super normal for a company to want everyone relevant to hear news like a coworker’s promotion in a consistent way all at once (why changes are happening, what they mean for other roles, what the timeline is for hiring replacements, etc). Otherwise, people will invent the wildest stories as rumors spread. There’s absolutely no reason for your coworker’s meeting to be scary to you or them, though it is a little pot-stirring for the coworker to have told you they had a meeting they can’t tell you about. It definitely feels like *they* might be trying to stir up drama, not the company.

        4. linger*

          Being asked to keep quiet goes with the territory, then! But seriously…
          As long as the request for secrecy isn’t being used to hide something that would adversely impact your own work, you shouldn’t be asking your colleague to spill all, or otherwise unnecessarily heightening the potential workplace drama, before they’re free to share details.

    4. Charlotte Lucas*

      Unless you have a union or work in government that requires the job to be posted, probably legal. But unethical if it’s against company policy.

    5. ecnaseener*

      I agree with londonedit, aside from legally protected speech (like non-managers discussing salary, whistleblowing, etc) there’s no legal issue with telling an employee not to talk about a given topic. They’re not the government, they’re not infringing on your first amendment rights or anything.

    6. Colette*

      Sometimes there are strategic reasons not to share something. For example, someone is getting fired and you will be taking over some of their role; a division is being sold but if it gets out there are concerns about insider trading; a re-org is coming but it’s not final so having word get out is premature.

      It’s not illegal (generally) to share that info, but it is career-limiting.

    8. Princess Xena*

      I notice you say “probably being offered a new role”. There are a whole lot of other reasons HR and a supervisor could meet with someone and want to keep it discrete.

      Also, why wouldn’t it be legal? There’s a big difference between “we are deliberately concealing your salaries and roles to pay you less” and “this is part of something that’s still fluid and we’d rather not have rumor and speculation blow it out of proportion before it’s final”

      1. Bess*

        Yeah…depending on the content of the meeting, there are a lot of reasons “please don’t share this” protects everyone involved. I generally advocate for transparency where possible but full transparency in any workplace is not always possible or helpful or good for morale. This question is framed so suspiciously…

        1. Warrior Princess Xena*

          Exactly! Especially if the meeting is something like “we’re investigating into coworker B’s reports of bullying – could you share what you saw at DATE and TIME?”

          Just as one of many possible examples

      2. Dust Bunny*

        This.

        Seriously, controlling the narrative and keeping stuff under wraps until it’s more settled isn’t always nefarious–sometimes it’s just sparing everyone a lot of drama over something that will ultimately be OK or even good.

        1. seps*

          Right. The irony here is, more discretion is often needed the closer you get to the top, so if the coworker is not being discrete about something they were explicitly asked to keep to themselves for now….it is possible they are not the right person for the potential new job.

          (this, coming from someone who prefers to be as transparent as possible in all situations but even I have learned that sometimes we must be patient)

    9. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I used to work for a library system that would trade staff from branch to branch at least twice a year. If you were one of the people who was selected to be transferred they would usually call you in for a meeting to inform you, and then ask you not to tell your coworkers about it until the official announcement was made. It’s not shady or illegal, it’s an attempt to manage the rumor mill.

    10. learnedthehardway*

      It would be entirely legal, and your colleague would be doing themselves a disservice by disclosing the situation before they were told it was okay to do so.

      There are lots of reasons why details of a business discussion aren’t allowed to be shared broadly, but why the person concerned might need to know.

    11. Not A Manager*

      You say, “And if it is allowed, under what law?”

      Are you looking for a law that specifically entitles an employer to tell an employee not to discuss certain things? I think this misunderstands how employment law works (and how laws in general work in the U.S.) Very broadly speaking, people (including employers) are allowed to do (or require, as employers) anything that isn’t legally prohibited. Your question seems to assume the opposite, that people are prohibited from doing anything that isn’t explicitly legally allowed.

    12. PollyQ*

      IANAL, but it’s possible that this could be illegal, since the law that allows non-managerial employees to discuss their salaries also allows them to discuss “working conditions.” That said, why make a fuss over it? It’s not strange to me that an employer would want to keep information like this confidential until they’re ready to make an announcement.

      But to answer your question about “under what law,” as a general rule, employers can do just about anything unless there’s a law prohibiting it. So can most citizens, for that matter. There’s no law that “allows” to you go check your mailbox any time you like–there’s just nothing that says it’s illegal.

    13. Fabulous*

      Part of upper level jobs is maintaining confidentiality of information, especially the higher up you go. So while the info might not be “confidential” per se, it could still be sensitive or pending publicization.

    14. Canonical23*

      It’s entirely legal and it’s best practice when a reorganization is involved. I also work in a library that’s overgone several reorgs in the past 3 years and they keep things under wraps until they can announce everything at once. That has not always been practice, and let me say, people will drum up huge panic about layoffs if they know a reorg is happening but no details have been announced. (Despite no reorgs resulting in any layoffs.)

      Your colleague may also have been told to wait to share the info if all the details aren’t hashed out – if there are two different roles they could be a good fit for, HR might not want them to say anything until the role is selected and salary is negotiated.

    15. Madeleine Matilda*

      Usually management will ask you to not share something that is not finalized yet to avoid the speculation and gossip that is happening particularly if the reorganization impacts other people who may not have been informed yet. Because your co-worker decided to share something he was asked not to, his co-workers are speculating on what is happening to the extent that you are now speculating on a blog. Frankly if I was the person who asked your co-worker to keep the information private and learned he hadn’t, I might change my mind about whatever new role I had in mind for him as he has shown he cannot be trusted to maintain confidentiality.

    16. RussianInTexas*

      This is not illegal (I can’t think how it would be), and perfectly normal. There can be a bunch of very valid business reasons for the employer to ask not to share information prematurely.

    17. RagingADHD*

      Yes, management can tell your colleague they don’t want them to share any information. And yes, they can decide that the colleague may not be suited for a more responsible role if they can’t be discreet. That seems like simply a sound management practice. Discussions about roles and reorganizations are not done by committee with the entire staff. It is nobody’s business who is being considered for what role until there is a final decision (on both sides) and an announcement. Gossip is poison.

      When you ask “under what law” I think you have a completely backwards way of looking at the law in the US. People and companies in the US don’t need laws to “allow” them to do things. The baseline assumption is that anybody can do anything they want or believe to be in their best interest. Laws prohibit things. Everything is allowed unless there is a law *against* it.

      Why do you think you are entitled to information about your colleagues’ (apparently plural) discussions with HR? Have you considered the possibility that your coworkers are (apparently repeatedly) telling you they can’t talk about it so you will leave them alone?

      You should back off and respect your colleagues’ privacy. And if a colleague is teasing you by saying they are invited to a secret meeting but they can’t talk about it, then you should ignore them and stop playing along with their head games.

      1. seps*

        “And yes, they can decide that the colleague may not be suited for a more responsible role if they can’t be discreet.”

        +1 – made a similar comment above before reading this one

    18. Squirrel!*

      (I have no intent as coming across as rude, more compassionate, so I hope this comment is taken in that spirit.)

      That being said, based on your original comment and your reply to Anonymous Koala, I am getting the feeling that you are suspicious of the management at your library. You might have completely valid reasons for it, but you’re taking a typically innocuous request (“Please keep the details of the HR meeting under wraps for now”) and treating it as though it is potentially a criminal activity. Can you ask yourself a few things about this situation?

      – What makes you think management is trying to intimidate or scare people?
      – Why do you believe that it is illegal for HR to ask people to be discreet about private meetings?
      – Why do you feel “secret” meetings are automatically suspect?

      Obviously you don’t have to post the answers to these questions here, but maybe answering them for yourself will help you figure out why you are framing this event in such a negative way.

      Reading between the lines, you clearly don’t trust your management or HR, and you think something nefarious is going on. So, maybe it would be helpful for you to look into leaving for greener pastures, if possible for you.

    19. mollie*

      Genuinely asking: who cares? How is it your business what’s being discussed in a meeting you’re not in, that’s seemingly not about you?

  8. Watry*

    I work in local government, let’s say going reports for the vanilla teapots division. Yesterday I got a call from the chocolate teapots division about my coworker, Sarah. He asked to speak to our shared supervisor about a reference check for Sarah–and then asked me not to tell Sarah he was calling. I ended up doing the transfer, but I spoke to the supervisor this morning and she was not aware Sarah was seeking a transfer.

    Should I tell Sarah he called? I absolutely do not think our supervisor will push her out, but it seems like an awful thing to do and something she may want to know.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      This is odd – the chocolate teapots manager is doing a backdoor reference WITHIN the organization?

      I feel like Sarah needs to know – she may not even be considering a move at all, and now her supervisor thinks she IS thinking of moving.

      Before that, though, I would clarify to the supervisor that chocolate teapot guy asked you to not mention the call to Sarah, which struck you as odd. (ie. you’re wondering whether she really is considering a move or if chocolate teapot guy is trying to poach her by making her dept think she is contemplating a move.)

    4. Just Your Everyday Crone*

      This is very weird. Why did he tell you why he was calling in the first place, as opposed to “can I talk to Bob?” Secondly, asking you not to tell Sarah seems sketchy.

      1. Watry*

        He told me because he was going to do the check with me–I’ve actually worked with her longest in her current position–but I didn’t feel comfortable and couldn’t actually speak to her work anyway.

    5. Office Lobster DJ*

      Since it’s internal – how bad would it be for you if you did tell tell Sarah and the Backdoor Referencer found out? Could you weather any fallout from him? Could your supervisor be the one to tell Sarah?

    6. Jackers*

      I guess I don’t find it odd at all. In my company it’s common practice that if someone has applied to an internal position that the hiring manager will reach out to the current manager to learn more about the candidate.

  9. Minimal Pear*

    I’m the admin person who’s supporting hiring efforts at my job. One of the people we want to interview just emailed me and screwed up my name impressively. I have a difficult name and people make mistakes all the time, but he didn’t even make one of the common ones, he went for something really weird. It’s odd enough–combined with his email being kind of weird and pompous in general–that it feels like something I should maybe flag to the team who’d be interviewing him. Am I just being petty because he really annoyed me?

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I think it’s good to flag this for the interview team. Not in a “don’t hire this person!” way but in a “here’s more information about this candidate for you to factor into your assessment of him” way.

    3. LibrarianJ*

      As someone who’s served on hiring committees, I care a lot about how candidates act with any admin/support people. Something like this wouldn’t prevent me from interviewing a candidate, but it is definitely information I would want to add to my general picture of the candidate. YMMV depending on the culture at your workplace and what kinds of things the interview team looks for, but in my workplace, this would be worth mentioning. It’s not atypical here for members of the hiring committee to forward any individual communication with a candidate to each other just as an FYI, so especially if you think the email is pompous, I might forward the whole thing.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        With the way we have it set up, the hiring committee will get pulled into this email chain later, but I have no idea if they routinely go back and look at all of the previous logistical emails between me and the candidates. This is a very good point–I think I’ll mention it to them so that they know to go back and look at that initial email.

    4. NICS*

      As another person with a difficult name, I suggest you spin this as a matter of his attention to detail, with a dash of being condescending to those he feels are “beneath” him (as you mention his being pompous). Make sure you sound as if you’re passing on information, not as if you’re personally insulted.

      (That said I hear you on being personally insulted. Some people use it as an aggrandizing tactic. “I’m so important I don’t need to get your name right, peon.” Feh.)

      1. Spencer Hastings*

        Yeah. I’ve had many experiences of people being generally lovely and respectful but still getting my difficult name wrong, so if I were in OP’s position, this guy’s pomposity would be the main thing for me.

    5. Princess Xena*

      Out of curiosity, is there a way he could have easily gotten your name right (like an email signature or a business card) or was he attempting to transcribe a name he heard? If it’s the former, I’d say definitely flag it. If the latter, I would keep it in mind for later but maybe give him some grace. People have some odd spelling understandings sometimes, especially if they are from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds.

        1. Nea*

          So potential Face Of The Company saw your name in writing yet didn’t check his spelling of your name against the very email he was replying to?

          “Here is an example of Potential Face Of The Company not checking easily verified details in a manner that could potentially harm the company brand” is VITAL information for the hiring committee! You’re thinking that because it’s your name bringing it up would be personal, but the way to frame it is “If this is how he is about co-worker’s names, one shudders to think what he might do to Major Moneybags’ name when representing us.”

          1. Nea*

            What you want to point out to the interview committee is egregious lack of attention to detail. That the detail messed up was your name is beside the point – he did not double-check his work and that’s bad for your company.

          2. Minimal Pear*

            It’s not quite a spelling thing–think something more like calling me by my middle name and then also calling me “Ms.” even though my name is gender neutral. (I mean, maybe he looked me up on our company website and saw the long hair and she/her pronouns, but still. No one else in this hiring process has used an honorific while emailing me.)

            1. PollyQ*

              I would completely remove the “Ms.” issue from your consideration. He may very well have looked you up in order to try to be more polite/formal, and I don’t think he should be penalized for that.

              The first/middle thing–eh, I don’t know. Yes, it’s a mistake, so you could flag it, but I don’t think it’s as egregious as coming up with a new spelling despite seeing it correctly.

              1. Minimal Pear*

                IDK how to explain what the precise mistake he made was without doxxing myself, but the way in which he screwed up my name wasn’t as… neutral? as my first/middle name example suggests. It’s not at the level of “white person mangling a person of color’s name” (I’m white, my name VERY MUCH matches my heritage lol) but while it probably is an innocent mistake, the way in which he made the innocent mistake feels slightly sexist. I think that’s why the “Ms.” feels weird.

                1. RagingADHD*

                  Wait, I didn’t see this before. The candidate gave you the correct honorific (possibly by verifying your publicly available pronouns).

                  Why is that sexist? I took your original comment at face value, but this string of comments has me more confused about the situation and your reaction to it.

                2. Nancy*

                  It is really difficult to understand the issue without having an example that shows it.

                  Using Ms for someone who has she/her pronouns is not an issue. He very well could have looked it up. I would have done exactly that because addressing someone by their first name only in a first email to them is rude to me. I prefer to be more formal and I know many others have also been taught that. Ms/Mr first name is another common way to show respect in some culture and regions.

                  If it is using your middle name as your first name, I have found that people seem to get confused when more than 2 names are listed. Misspellings? My difficult name is misspelled all the time. I learned to stop caring so much. Something else? I can’t tell.

          4. Nitpicker*

            This happens to me all the time. There are 2 alternative spellings of my first name which is not only on my emails but part of my email address. I have lost track of the number of people who use the other spelling in a reply.
            Most amusing was when I was job hunting and had attended a resume workshop. After emphasizing the need for accuracy (i.e. no misspellings) on my resume, the instructor sent me a pitch for his services as a job hunting coach. Yep, he got my name wrong!

            1. Minimal Pear*

              I complained about this in a previous Friday thread, but the person who onboarded me misspelled my name in a few places (and in a different way every time! impressive!) and it’s caused SERIOUS problems.

            2. jane's nemesis*

              People reply to me addressing me as though my last name is my first name, when I have signed my emails as “Thanks, FirstName” and have in my email signature, FirstName LastName.

              I don’t know why my last name seems more like a first name than my (unusual) first name to people, but apparently they aren’t actually reading my emails to them very carefully…

    6. Chestnut Mare*

      I’d be inclined to let it go unless there are other red flags. Autocorrect is sometimes frustratingly obtuse and aggressive.

      2. Observer*

        I don’t care how bad auto-correct is. In yesterday’s comment section there was a discussion about the importance of attention to detail. THIS is a perfect example of why it’s important and how it can damage a company.

        It doesn’t really matter how the mistake happened. It’s the kind of thing he should have been extra careful of. What happens when it’s a customer or VIP that he does this to?

        1. tessa*

          That’s pretty rigid. We can all go out of our way to not make a mistake and still make it.

          So when it’s a customer or VP (or anyone), and someone makes a mistake, hopefully, they’ll apologize, correct it then and there, and privately find a way to never make that mistake again.

          The real problem here is the pompous attitude in the email.

      3. Nitpicker*

        Auto corrupt (term not original with me) is terrible. Which is why it’s essential to proofread before sending something out.

    7. Observer*

      It’s odd enough–combined with his email being kind of weird and pompous in general–that it feels like something I should maybe flag to the team who’d be interviewing him. Am I just being petty because he really annoyed me?

      No, I think that this is a genuine issue to flag. For one thing, don’t annoy the admin who is scheduling your interviews! It doesn’t inspire confidence. For another, what you describe sounds like something that should be taken into consideration unless the role has no interaction with the pubic and minimal interaction with other staff.

    8. My Useless 2 Cents*

      I’d flag it. I’m thinking of it along the lines of an in-person interview where the candidate is really rude to the receptionist. It gives those making the hiring decision a view of how this person might fit into the company (or not).

    9. Midwest Manager*

      In this instance I’d defer to letting it go. If the candidate persists after gentle correction, then it will tell you a lot about how they percieve administrative support staff and may be worth mentioning. If the hiring manager is any good, chances are that arrogance will come through during the interview and they will get the boot anyway.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        I did go ahead and flag it for them in a very “not a big deal, just a small factor to keep in mind” way.

    10. Pithy is not Pejorative*

      I’m a hiring manager and I often personally handle a lot of the admin coordination with applicants/candidates. It’s always interesting to see how people treat me and follow instructions, particularly when they don’t realize I’m the hiring manager for the position at a fairly large, fairly prestigious company. I’ve come to use it as one of the decision criteria for the position; it can be very telling.

    11. RagingADHD*

      You should always flag a problematic candidate. The hiring team will choose what weight to give it, but feedback on how they interact with the rest of the organization is always important.

    12. Somehow_I_Manage*

      I’d forward the email to the team so they a can be aware of whatever he emailed about (because that’s probably what you have to do with it anyway) and leave it alone. They’ll see it. There’s enough reasonable doubt- autocorrect, taking really bad notes when he heard your name, not a native speaker, etc. But if they engage further, it might help construct a pattern.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        They’ll get cced into the thread later when I get him scheduled for a time–I just don’t know if they bother to go back and read the exchanges with candidates about finding a time, etc. I did tell one of them that she should take a look at that initial email once she gets cced.

    13. Ed123*

      I’m a bit confused. They used the title Ms. which seems to be the correct one to use based on the public information on your company website. The mistake they made with the name was kind of like using middle name instead of first name. But not really. It also wasn’t anything like an ethnic name being anglicised. Nor was it a spelling mistake. I’m not sure which part of this is sexist.

      Af for flaging it. You can talk to someone and say your opinion bur based on this it’s really difficult to say what it actually happening.

  10. ThatGirl*

    I referenced this last week/in prior weeks, but my company merged with (let’s be honest, was acquired by) a slightly larger company in the same industry/complementary space. It’s been… interesting. I’m in marketing, and there are eventual plans to make us one large marketing team. There isn’t a TON of overlap, so I’m not worried about losing my job, but my manager is now reporting to a guy at the “other” company. We only JUST met him last week, which was … interesting. He was pleasant enough, no bad vibes, but the company culture is clearly VERY different than ours.

    Best way to describe it is that when I was onboarded, I was given a TON of resources, lots of meetings set up for me, lots of oversight, kinda warm and fuzzy. At the other place, they’re basically told “okay, here’s your equipment and a list of resources….figure it out!”

    When one of my teammates asked him to describe the company culture in three words, he said “professionalism” and “rugged individualism”. We all just kinda went… :-??? (and now if any of my coworkers are reading this, they will know it’s me, ha.)

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      Yikes, sounds like there’s going to be a bit of a culture shock. But since there’s a layer between you and him hopefully you’ll be a bit insulated.

    2. Myrin*

      Maybe it’s because I’m not a native English speaker and primarily encounter “rugged” in a “romance novel hero”-kind of way but “rugged individualism” sounds weirdly macho/”everyone fending for themselves like untamed cavemen” to me.

      1. ThatGirl*

        You’re not wrong! It makes me think of like… camping on a mountain or something. A pickup truck commercial. There are other “bro” vibes I’ve gotten from a few things… I think what he MEANT was that the company rewards people for figuring things out for themselves/seeking out the resources they need and problem-solving. But he didn’t say it well.

      2. Cj*

        I start a new job at the beginning of August and my insurance kicks in in october. We aren’t able to log in until after our September 21st benefits meeting. I’m really worried I won’t have the info I need by October 1st, just like you. I need my meds refilled on time every month, and it’s going to be a huge hardship if I don’t have my insurance card on time.

      3. Weaponized Pumpkin*

        Rugged individualism an extremely American idea, and it totally means that. It ties into westward expansion, manifest destiny, and other American ideals about going it alone and conquering shit.

        Definition of rugged individualism
        : the practice or advocacy of individualism in social and economic relations emphasizing personal liberty and independence, self-reliance, resourcefulness, self-direction of the individual, and free competition in enterprise.

    3. Beth*

      For me, “rugged individualism” in this context means “You’re on your own, nobody will help you, people will tear you down if they think that will get them ahead, and when you fail, we’ll tell you it’s your fault.” And “professionalism” means “If you make any objections or push back, we will tear you down harder and tell you that it’s your fault because you have a bad attitude.”

      In your place, I would start my job hunt yesterday.

      1. ThatGirl*

        The thing is – I don’t think that’s what he meant. I think he just phrased it really poorly. Because when asked to expand upon that, he did mention finding resources and getting help, and we’re in a creative team within marketing — the work is collaborative by nature. He’s also two levels up from me and not in the same location, although in theory he’ll be dictating at least some of the work we get.

        That said, my resume is up to date should the need arise.

        1. Somehow_I_Manage*

          If I may “glass half full” this situation. Some people thrive when they’re given the independence to build their work the way they like. While it’s good to have support, often the more corporate an organization gets, the more strangled you can be by the bureaucracy and endless procedure. Particularly in creative fields (like marketing) this new culture might be a more free space for you to implement your own ideas and try things “your way” without fear of getting micromanaged- and even better, if you’re successful, you’ll get recognized!

          Granted, some people really need tightly structured and managed positions, and don’t feel confident unless someone is looking over their shoulder. That’s why culture matters in the job search. Hopefully this works out for you!

          1. ThatGirl*

            I, personally, am happy to wait and see what happens. I’ve seen a lot of corporate BS and I know by now what I am and am not willing to put up with. Things are certainly going to shift; if I find myself miserable, I’m not shy about job-searching. And it’s not that I need to be tightly managed, per se – my boss is not super hands-on. It’s more that we’re moving from warm and fuzzy/family owned to All About the Numbers/justify why you’re here/publicly owned and I feel like there has to be some kind of happy medium between the dramatic pendulum swings.

  11. my cat is prettier than me*

    I’m a little frustrated at the moment. My health insurance at my new job started on the first of this month, but I haven received a card or any other information. I have some appointments that I really need to schedule, but I can’t do that without any information. My direct supervisor is our HR department (one person, started when I did). I asked her about it and apparently the benefits coordinator is asking for stuff she already has. I don’t think there’s anything I can do about it, so I’m just venting.

    1. Sassenach*

      Most companies who offer benefits have a broker. Ask your HR department who that is and contact them directly. If that does not work, contact the insurance carrier directly. Do not wait. If there is an issue with your enrollment, time is critical in getting it resolved. Do not wait! I am speaking with 25 years in the insurance industry.

      2. my cat is prettier than me*

        I think the broker is the person HR is actually talking to. If I call the insurance company directly, will they be able to do anything without a lot of information?

        1. Sassenach*

          you should be able to call the broker directly as well. The HR person should also have online access to the group account where they can view and print your ID card for you, look up your ID number, check to make sure you are enrolled etc. It is not this hard, I promise! I would keep insisting. It’s YOUR coverage and part of your benefits package.

          1. HoundMom*

            I am a broker and I regularly speak to employees, but most of my colleagues do not. It really depends on the size of the clients you handle. Small group brokers (under 50 employee lives) often do but as companies get larger, it is less common. I work in in the over 1,000 market. The only way an employee can get my contact information is if the HR/benefits person connects us.

            Most of the national carriers still allow you to set up an account with your SSN and/or date of birth. If you cannot log in, they do not have your information on file yet, so you need to chase HR.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      That stinks! But talk to your medical providers. Some would know if they can work with or bill your insurance without the cards. (Don’t underestimate how much CSRs can look up with just a name and date of birth.)

    3. OnetoFindTheGiraffe*

      I just switched jobs and had a similar situation. It’s probably worth a shot to call the insurance company and say you just started and know they’re still processing your card, but can they give you your ID?

      (This only works if the benefits coordinator has let the company know about your hire, but I was able to get my member ID # this way weeks before my card arrived in the mail. I still haven’t received the full policy documents!)

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I can’t find the number. The carrier is in a different state and only has numbers listed for certain cities.

        1. Weaponized Pumpkin*

          Did you try one of the numbers anyway? My carrier is out of state and all the contacts are out of state, but that’s where the company is so I call there.

    4. Merci Dee*

      Depending on your insurance carrier, you can go to their website, register for an account if you haven’t already, and print a temporary card from their website until your regular card arrives. I’ve had to do that once or twice, and my providers didn’t have any problem accepting it.

    5. J.B.*

      Blue cross did this to me! I had to get the number from our benefits office and they hadn’t flipped some necessary switch.

    6. shannon*

      Hi, I work in hospital billing. If you know the name of the company, and it’s common (Blue Cross, Aetna, etc) the staff at your office should be able to find it with your name and birthday.

    7. Parenthesis Dude*

      Talk to your doctor’s office. If they have a relationship with you, they’ll understand that your insurance is changing and will work with you. If they don’t, you can always submit the bill to your insurance yourself when you get it, and they’ll reimburse you. It’s not great, but if you really need to schedule the appointments, you should be fine.

    8. BellyButton*

      Usually, you just pay it and once you get everything you submit it to the insurance. Or you can ask your doctor if they can wait until you receive the info. I start my new job on Monday, right when I need to get some prescriptions filled and I don’t have the info. I’ll just pay and submit when I do.

    9. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Stay on it– something similar happened to me at an old job and it turned out HR had never submitted my info to the insurance company. I was inadvertently uninsured for much longer than I expected. It wasn’t difficult to correct, but I was so pissed when I found out.

      If the benefits coordinator is asking for info, your supervisor should re-send it. She started the same day you did– does she have her card?

    10. halfwolf*

      i’ve always been told that if you don’t have your insurance ID yet, a doctor’s office is able to look up your coverage with your social security number. i believe i have done that in the past, but i don’t totally recall! definitely reach out to your providers and explain the situation and ask what they’d like you to do. as frustrating as this is as a patient, doctor’s offices encounter this kind of situation all the time.

    11. RussianInTexas*

      If your new medical insurance is one of the big names, they would have a website from which you can download and/or request your insurance ID card and the break down of the benefits.
      They will usually ask your SS#, name, employer, stuff like this.

    12. KuklaRed*

      I had a similar situation when I changed jobs in July. My benefits started on my first day, but I didn’t have any info (policy #, etc.) and I had to schedule a doctor’s appointment and get some meds refilled. I contacted the insurance company directly and they were able to help me get set up, emailed me my insurance card, and were really great.

    13. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I may be cynical but are you 100% sure they have actually enrolled you in an insurance plan…

      1. my cat is prettier than me*

        I am 100% sure. HR is fantastic and we’re working together to try to get better benefits for the company in the future.

    14. Slightly Less Evil Bunny*

      Recently happened to me. At checkout at the doctor’s office, I explained the situation and offered to just pay the entire bill if that was their preference. I knew the name of the new insurance company though, and the coordinator was able to look me up! She even printed out a copy of my card for me, which was great since they were sending me for some lab work and I would’ve needed it there, too.

      If a card still hasn’t arrived by the time of your appointment, tell the office and maybe they can help you out.

      1. Slightly Less Evil Bunny*

        Oh, sorry – I missed the bit about you not even being able to schedule the appointments without the info.

        Might still be worth a try explaining when you call.

    15. Foley*

      This happened to me this January? Takes like six weeks for paperwork, but I had a follow-up appointment from a December procedure…in January.

      I called (Blue Cross) in this case, and they were able to give me the ID number which I gave to the doctor’s office and it worked out. But the doctor’s office said if I just gave them the company, they’d reverse engineer it. The broker had COVID at the time otherwise I’d have gone that route first.

      Like you I wasn’t able to get it online because I was missing some piece of necessary info. But once I got the ID number, I was able to create an account online and get all that other info and print a temporary card. Now that I’m thinking about it, I wonder if the cards ever came…I was just at the doctor’s today and once they had the info, they never asked again – or today.

  12. JewishAndVibing*

    I ended up turning down my first job offer (of my current job search) after researching the area I’d be relocating to. It’d be a very conservative area that’s apparently gotten worse with COVID and the increase in anti-LGBT sentiment in the last few months. I still feel back because I’d have gotten an in with an employer and it’d be working with badly underserved communities… but I also have my own safety as a Jewish LGBT+ person to worry about.

    Still sad, though, since it was work I really wanted to do.

    1. NICS*

      You have all my sympathies. That is terribly unfair and the people who caused this will never know what they have lost.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Sorry to hear that. I don’t think less marginalized folks recognize this enough when they say “Hey, just move to this lower-cost-of-living area” or “I love this totally remote place, which is so beautiful.” There are lots of places that are visually beautiful or that are cheaper to live in that are just not safe for certain folks to live in. Not that “blue” cities are immune from various *-isms, but there are often resources and lots of community support there. When you’re limited in where you can live, you’re limited in where you can work, too.

      1. Starbuck*

        “Hey, just move to this lower-cost-of-living area”

        Totally, it’s usually lower-cost for serious quality of living issues that are keeping people away for a REASON.

    3. Carpe Manana*

      No matter how great a job is nor how much I believed in the organization’s mission, I could not feel safe in a community that didn’t value me (at best) or was outright hostile to me (at worse). I look forward to reading your post when all the pieces fall together for you.

    4. aubrey*

      You have to take care of yourself first, and that’s not something you should feel bad about. The whole situation really sucks though.

  13. New Mom*

    I work in a time sensitive high-stakes industry that involves financials for vulnerable people. I have a crunch time where literally every minute counts with the type of work I’m doing. I do the work for hundreds of clients. My issue is that some of the clients have point people in my organization who will want/demand status updates or try to get their client’s unique case pushed up in the queue. I have tried ignoring, I’ve created automatic responses, or letting them know that I need to focus on my work but the point people will usually involve higher ups which will then require me to stop my work and deal with the specific case.
    The issue is, when I pause my work, it causes delays for all the other clients, including ones who may not be as good at advocating for themselves as the one that the point person is calling about. Delays will cause more urgent situations for a larger amount of people but the point people don’t seem to grasp it or maybe don’t care. I’m finding it difficult to be productive with these interruptions but the higher ups are so out of the loop that whenever they hear about an “urgent case” from one of the point people they become very reactive. My frustration is that it’s really urgent for all the clients, not just the ones that the case workers might be calling about.
    Any advice? Anyone in a similar situation.

    1. Colette*

      Two questions:
      1) Can the people asking for updates view the status on their own?
      2) Can you direct them to your management, and have them run interference?

      1. New Mom*

        1) Sometimes, everything needs to be manually updated so it’s only as fast as my small team can do. And with the interruptions, that work tends to get pushed to the bottom.
        2) Management has really let us down. They are so out of the loop and I guess uncomfortable saying no, that one day a few weeks ago I said a firm “no” to a few point people and then I had to have four separate 30-60 minute meetings with higher and higher up people explaining the situation. I was so frustrated I almost started crying during the last meeting, and that was HOURS that were taken away from my time sensitive tasks that I was then forced to do late into the evening.

        1. Colette*

          You need to have a conversation with your manager about the trend, and about what she wants you to do. Maybe she wants you to drop everything; maybe she doesn’t – but you need to be on the same page.

          I’d also like to push back on “I was then forced to do late into the evening”. That sounds like a choice.

          I understand you are working on important stuff, but you can’t be the only one trying to hold it all together. If your manager takes you away for 2-4 hours to talk about your priorities, that is time that those important things won’t get done – and that’s your manager’s call.

    2. NICS*

      Is there any way you (hopefully with the support of your direct supervisor) can tell the higher-ups that every case like this is urgent and you have a queue organized to get the most cases done in the least time, but whenever they force you to stop your queue and deal with X case it makes everyone else’s case take longer and decreases yur efficiency?

      Good luck!

      1. JustaTech*

        Yes, if you can manage it, figure out how many other client’s work is *not* getting done while you respond to that One Pushy Person or worse, the “why didn’t you do this” meetings.

        “When you pulled me into a 60 minute meeting about That One Person 4 other client’s finances did not get processed on time. How would you like to address this in the future?”

        Metrics may make a stronger argument for managers who don’t understand the system.

    3. Bagpuss*

      That’s really frustrating.

      Is thre anyone more senior that you you could speak to with a view to creating a protocol you can refer people to, and perhaps having that more senior person explain the problem.

      Do you have a standard response for higher ups ? e.g. “I am currently dealing with a high number of high priorty cases. I deal with cases strictly on the basis of their urgency, please don’t ask be to take cases out of order as this causes delays as it disrupts the process, but also prejudices those clients who have equally urgent, or more urgent cases but do not have direct access to a senior manager / board member.”

      Ideally it sounds as thoug you need someone with more power than you to instruct you *not* to let anyone skip the queue – is there anyone you or your manager could approach to give that instruction? e.g. if you were able to say “I can’t override the queue unless it’s authorised by the CEO, if you get his authotiryt to priortise Mrs Jones’ case, forward that on to me and I will of course take that next” then it makes it much harder for them to pull rank on you.
      (and hopefully also reduces or cut s short the number of times people ask)

    4. Tex*

      I think you need a presentation to management/hire ups that shows that when you stop to help one individual client, it makes overall productivity go down. They may have your back if you can pinpoint reasons for negative outcomes to the current system.

      The real question is – are there people who need to jump the queue or is this just a case of a squeaky wheel? Maybe designate someone on your team who can handle special requests? Or have a special time (last hour of the working day people can contact you, but all your time before that needs to be devoted to the big list.

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Step 1: Do a big picture thing with the higher ups/management, explaining the process, how you’re tracking, consequences of being late, etc. Then explain the domino effect that’s happening and ask for help in changing the situation. Give them specific things to do/not do that will help.

      Step 2: Setup and communicate guidelines, which include a very obvious reference to no special cases, no updates unless xyz, leave you and your team alone except in cases of abc.

      Step 3: when step 1 and 2 have happened and the situation hasn’t changed. Be late. Yes, it sucks. But you’re not the one causing this, and your management has failed. So, just do the best you can and if you’re late, oh well. But do CYA so that when you’re late, you can point to all these unnecessary interruptions and say, well, I spent 3 hours responding to these status requests/meetings/whatever, which was 3 hours I didn’t spend on actually doing the work. Put the consequences back on the people who are causing them.

      Step 4: For when you get fed up, find a new job.

    6. My Useless 2 Cents*

      Oh, that is so frustrating. I was in a similar situation once but my work isn’t so urgent or important.

      My situation: I received work from half a dozen project managers, did my portion, and handed job back to PM. Urgent jobs were flagged so that I could turn them over quickly. One PM marked 85% of her jobs as urgent when maybe 5% of her jobs were actually urgent. I got to the point that I would just say okay, put her “urgent” job at the top of the list, after which I would return to job I was working on, after that I would complete the job 2nd on the list, if that didn’t take too long I do the 3rd on the list. If anyone asked, her “urgent” job was next on the list to-do. In no way did I give her the special treatment she wanted so she complained once to my manager. But when manager looked at the numbers they couldn’t see any problems, the work was getting done and within a reasonable time frame.

      I guess, I’d go against some of the comments I see here. Make the queue a little more opaque if at possible to give you and your team some wiggle room when deciding on priority cases. When asked… “I’m just finishing up this one I’m working on and that “urgent case” is next on the list.”

      1. LizB*

        This strategy is actually kind of brilliant when what you really need to manage are external expectations!

    7. LizB*

      I’m not in your situation, but I have coworkers who are in very similar-sounding positions. I actually have access to their department’s task queue so I can field as many external questions as possible for them and let them focus during crunch time, and during the really key hour of the week I have a secondary person who jumps on the phones with me to also help out. Is there an admin or adjacent department that can act as a buffer between you and case managers during peak work hours? Could look something like this:

      Case Manager: Hey, is Susie Participant’s check cut yet? She really needs it for [details details legitimate but not unique sob story etc etc]
      Buffer Person: I can see that New Mom received Susie’s request on time and is processing checks right now. Susie Participant should have her check on time, which is to say by 2pm today [or whatever your timeline is].
      or,
      Buffer Person: Looks like Susie’s request was received after the deadline. New Mom is working on processing the on-time requests now, but I’ll flag this one for her to include with the on-time batch if possible. [And then that gets done in some way that doesn’t require an immediate response from you or interrupt your workflow.]

      It’s also been very helpful in my org for our time-crunched department to be really transparent with the whole org about their timelines. They’ve presented in multiple staff meetings about their process, who is doing what kind of work when, why their various deadlines are set when they are, etc. They also have full backup from our management to put their heads down and do their thing when it’s crunch time, so I do think a big-picture conversation with your management is crucial.

    8. Banana*

      When I have worked with similar heads-down time critical work, I gave my leadership a space to make a priority list for me of things that needed to be pulled ahead, I limited the number of things that could be on the list (my number was 3, including any I was still working on, if there were 3 on there and they wanted to add one, they had to remove something, and they could not remove something once I had started working on it.) I also scheduled one 15 minute meeting every morning for them to discuss those items with me, they could not contact me prior to that meeting to discuss things. It helped keep the noise down, and helped them self-select and self-prioritize the escalations. I also saw them starting to set criteria for what they would add to the list and what they wouldn’t (clients who had been affected by a natural disaster, yes, clients who just tended to be demanding, no, etc.)

    9. P*

      I have seen similar situations where people are confusing important with urgent.

      When one of these point people contact you try pushing back by naming the problem. Have a prepared template response (so it causes minimal interruption) saying you acknowledge their query is important but it comes at the expense of causing other clients to miss out on , which is an urgent need that is time sensitive. If their request for an update can’t wait then they will need to supply evidence why it’s now urgent. It might not work every time but most people are reluctant to be identified as someone who’s so impatient their actions caused someone else to be denied what they need.

    10. Professional Cat Herder*

      Ugh, I’ve been there and I so feel for you in this issue. I eventually had to go for the “procrastination on your part, or your clients part does not constitue an emergency on my part” approach. It’s not the most “team player” attitude, but after getting work dumped on me at the last minute by multiple people it had to happen.

      I did the following three things:
      1. I had to give a submission deadline for Sales and other departments if they wanted certain projects to get priority.
      2. I instituted a rule that projects would be done in the order received and could only be rushed if there was a really good reason. Such as, it was a personal client of the CEO or something.
      3. As we were a smaller company and I worked directly under the CEO, I had a very illuminating conversation (for him) about priorities and the bottlenecks they were causing to my department (with metrics).

      My advice to you, would be to quantify as to how this is causing delays in writing. Such as, “the normal timeline for Client A’s teapot production was on track for 3 days, but when we got a priority request for Client B’s saucers this added 2 extra days to the production of teapots.”

      Wishing you luck!

  14. Justme, The OG*

    More of a complaint than anything. I applied for a job (dream job) and felt that I tailored my resume and cover letter well to what they were asking for, making my experience relevant. The night before the job closed the hiring manager emailed with a new job description, very different from what was published. I can’t go back and edit my stuff, system won’t allow for it.

    1. Colette*

      Do you want the job with the new description?

      If yes, and you were applying for that job, how would you change your resume? If it’s a significant change, can you reply to the email with the new version?

      1. Justme, The OG*

        I’m missing a lot of the required technical skills that’s in the new description. And maybe I don’t want to work for a department that can’t put out the correct job description.

        1. PollyQ*

          If all you had known about the job was the revised description, would you still have applied for it? Sounds kinda like a “no,” so probably best to just mentally let this one go and focus on other openings.

        2. Observer*

          That’s a bad take in that the problem with the job description doesn’t necessarily reflect the department.

          There are a lot of possible ways this could have happened, and most of them don’t mean that this is a bad place to work. Not that you shouldn’t try to find out what happened. But don’t draw any conclusions till you have more information.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      Can you send your edited stuff directly to the hiring manager, and explain that the system wouldn’t let you edit it?

        1. Anonymous Koala*

          I’m actually in gov too, and if they happened to me and I had the hiring manager’s email address (it sounds like you do) I would absolutely send over the updated stuff directly. It’s not going to hurt you, and sometimes hiring managers have more discretion about these things than it appears from the outside.

          1. Justme, The OG*

            When the jonb listing tells me to not email the recruitment contact directly, I tend to follow that direction.

            1. ...*

              Gov hiring manager here, email the POC and explain that the system isn’t letting you / didn’t let you upload your materials before close. We recently extended several listings to give candidates the opportunity to update or add materials because of this exact issue & candidates contacting us.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Can you email the hiring manager directly and ask if this is the same position? It’s possible they sent the wrong job description.

      Alternatively, maybe HR posted one description and the Hiring Manager has a completely different view of what the role is about (this is NOT unheard of, by the way). Getting clarification on that will help you understand whether you want the role, and whether you need to tailor your resume (again), which would be a pain. I’d tend to leave it as is.

        1. TechWorker*

          This then feels like it is *totally* ok to respond back ‘thanks for letting me know! I have updated my cover letter to better highlight my experience for the updated job role, attached’. That’s not ‘trying to get around process’, that’s totally reasonable!

    4. CheeryO*

      This doesn’t surprise me at all, unfortunately, as someone who is in state government and has been involved in the hiring process a few times in the last couple years. I wouldn’t necessarily let it color your view of the potential job too much. A lot of government agencies just suck at hiring, procedurally.

  15. JumpAround*

    Do the workplaces and resources Alison often describes actually exist anywhere? And if so in what kinds of industries and jobs?

    Through reading AAM I’ve realized that my workplace is pretty dysfunctional at best and super toxic at worst, but I read some of Alison’s advice and I can’t imagine a workplace where that’s an option. The idea of being “encouraged to take a few days off” or managers who are able to grant time off without using PTO is foreign to me. I don’t think any of my friends work somewhere with an EAP. Are there places where saying “If you want me to accomplish X, Y and Z will suffer” and that’s acceptable?

    I guess I’m really just looking for assurances that there is some kind of light at the end of the tunnel and wondering if I’m just in the wrong industry.

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Hm we have an EAP but I can’t imagine hearing about all this bad stuff happening to kids without at least your own therapist. My boss at least tells me to take a day off if I’ve gotten myself worked up lol.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Yes, they do, or she wouldn’t mention them. My manager has given us all freebie days off on occasion, and would encourage me to take PTO if she saw me getting burned out. I haven’t used our EAP, but everywhere I’ve worked has had one.

      Some industries lean more dysfunctional than others, but within any industry there will be a range of great-okay-bad-terrible employers.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      From my own experience working in engineering: yes, these workplaces exist.

      I have been able to take a few hours off not using PTO when moving (I relocated for the job, so the company was OK with me taking a few hours to have my furniture delivered). The companies I’ve work for have had an EAP (never used it so I can’t comment on how good the services are). And I have had conversations with my manager about needing to move a project deadline back, or asking “which of these tasks is the highest priority?”

    4. Decidedly Me*

      These things exist! I encourage people to take a few days off for folks that aren’t taking much time or due to other circumstances; this isn’t just me, though, but part of company culture. We offer an EAP. And I have totally told my own boss “If I focus on X, then I need to delay Y”.

    5. OnetoFindTheGiraffe*

      I can’t speak for your industry, but: my current workplace is about as close to the ideal scenario as I’ve ever seen Alison describe. Supportive managers, lots of training, lots of professional development, very caring atmosphere, great benefits and salary.

      It still feels like a bit of a mirage to me—but even recognizing that it’s far and away the best place I’ve worked, I still can say that other places at least were attempting to get there. Both my past two jobs had EAPs; both of them at least paid lip service to taking PTO.

      So it’s possible! Truly.

    6. Lynn*

      I have worked for three big companies in different industries, and they all did. I think it’s not necessarily the industry, but how direct vs indirect work outputs are; i.e. time off seems less of a big deal when it mostly means shuffling meetings around, and more of a big deal when it means we won’t produce enough widgets for our customers.

    7. londonedit*

      I have worked for them! It isn’t particularly common for managers to just say ‘take some time off’ without an employee having to actually use holiday or sick time, but an old manager of mine would say ‘go home and get some rest, and don’t worry about recording it as a sick day’ if you weren’t feeling well. My current workplace has an EAP and we’re reminded on a regular basis about it – it’s completely anonymous if you call (they like to know which company you’re calling from so they can build up an idea of the spread of use over the companies they work with, but you don’t even have to give your name) and you can access all sorts of legal help and counselling whether it’s a workplace issue or something completely personal. And I have a good relationship with my boss, so if I say to them ‘Look, I’m really concerned that the schedule for this book just isn’t going to be feasible’ or ‘I understand you want to rush this book out for the end of the year, but realistically we have six other books in the same time frame and I won’t be able to get them all done without something falling by the wayside’, they 100% take my word for it and – as much as is humanly possible – will work with me to come up with a solution. Even in my first publishing job, the CEO’s mantra was ‘If you can’t fit everything into your working hours, speak to your line manager because that means we have a problem with workload and we need to fix it’.

    8. calvin blick*

      I’d be interested in what industry you’re in. My company has a 3.7 rating on glassdoor with 66% of people recommending it, and are trying to deal with turnover. So, not an amazing place to work based on that. But we have an EAP, fairly casual relationship to PTO (I’m flying to a wedding soon and I just told my boss to let him know, but I’m not taking PTO for those hours), and we have the option of taking every other Friday off assuming our work is done.

      At the job before that, PTO wasn’t really tracked and while we didn’t have too many days off (12 days), it was kind of understood that if you were doing a good job and needed more no one was going to look too closely. Both places have a decently open door policy where if what your boss is asking isn’t possible, you can tell them.

      So short answer is your job sounds super toxic, and “pretty dysfunctional” is giving them too much credit. I don’t know what industry you’re in but I bet there are better companies out there even within the industry.

    10. JimmyJab*

      I work in state government, and I have lots of the positive things Alison talks about. Not universally true about government jobs, but mine is pretty good.

        1. Lives in a Shoe*

          Coming here to echo the above. I’m in higher ed admin, and while there are departments less happy than mine, I’m in my second with great, transparent leadership, good benefits, supportive colleagues, important-feeling work in the big picture sense, and GREAT pay. Often I feel as though I should pinch myself. It’s not perfect-perfect, but if I have to work (I do!) this is the perfect spot *for me.*

    11. MB*

      I’ve worked in a couple different places that had EAPs – I currently work in state government, but I also used to work retail for a large chain and they had an EAP available to even part-time staff. Maybe size of employer is the correlation there?

    12. Lady Ann*

      I work for a nonprofit and we have an EAP. I could not give my employees time off without them using PTO, though. Whether or not you could push back on work assigned to you would vary based on your position and who your supervisor is.

    13. WantonSeedStitch*

      Yes, they exist. I work at a large university, and we have an EAP. I have encouraged my employees to take time off. I DON’T have the ability to grant time off for non-sick reasons without using vacation time, really, but we don’t have any restrictions on advance notice when requesting vacation time. Someone can say “I’ve had a crappy week, can I take tomorrow off? (or even “this afternoon?)” and I’ll say yes. I don’t think I have ever turned down a request for vacation time at all. (FWIW, we don’t have a situation where there’s a strict amount of coverage needed at any given time.) If an employee told me “I can’t do X without giving up Y or Z or doing less on those things,” I would sit down with them and figure out priorities, or possibly even redistribute the workload so a colleague with less on their plate could take one of those tasks. I might even say, “OK, I’ll handle Y myself” if I have the time. We have a strong culture of stepping in to help your team when you can, since the way we work means that some people might be super busy while others are less so.

      We also have fantastic benefits, and while pay might not be as high as it is in the corporate world, it’s not bad (my exact field doesn’t really exist in the corporate world, unlike, say, IT or something), and we have upper management advocating for market reviews to ensure fairness and parity with our peer organizations. Also, the people here are great for the most part. Do we have some problems? Yeah, of course. But good places to work do exist, and I’m fortunate to be in one of them.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Same here in higher ed. We also get a ton of PTO, so it’s easy to take a day here and there AND a solid amount of vacation.

    14. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      They exist in my org — higher ed; but what you listed can either be manager specific (ability to push back on work) or organization specific (offering an EAP). I’ve been here 15 years and had even skip level managers suggest that we take more of our earned vacation to prevent burnout and have better life balance. Our EAP resource is publicized, I would say quarterly. Professional development is hit-or-miss; they “encourage” it, but haven’t been real great about providing it on their end unless I do the work of finding courses or workshops. They’re nebulous on what sort of budget there is, but so far I’ve been reimbursed for any of my out-of-pocket. I’m salary exempt and they’re really fine with me taking a half day for appointments without any penalty to my PTO (that’s actually the law on that one for salary exempt), but they don’t expect me to make up the time.

    15. Catherding Specialist*

      Yes. Several years ago, I needed emergency eye surgery and could only work a few hours a day for the first couple of weeks. That surgery failed and I had to have a more serious surgery with no work for two weeks, and limited for about 6 weeks after that. I told my boss I was going to use short term disability and asked him for advice as I’d never needed std (that’s a terrible acronym) before and wasn’t sure how it worked. He was horrified and told me not to worry about that he would make sure everything was handled. No PTO was taken out of my bank and the next year, our company switched to unlimited PTO. I’ve definitely made sure my team knows that I understand their jobs are very stressful and they should use the time when they need it, with no explanation needed of why they’re taking time off.

      I have had to say that if we add x, we’ll be unable to do y or z, but it our case y and z were outside of our job scope anyway. We were taking on extra projects as a favor to other departments so while it was frustrating because y and z long-term would make our jobs easier, no one was upset when we could no longer keep up. I’m trying to get a new hire that we can dedicate to y and z and maybe help us out with x when they have time.

    16. LadyByTheLake*

      I have worked in a lot of yucky places and some really good ones, but I have never, ever worked anywhere in my entire long career where it wasn’t okay to flag “If you want me to accomplish X, Y and Z will suffer.” That’s just ordinary work allocation. If you are someplace where you can’t even say that, get out — that is an unusually toxic situation.

    17. mreasy*

      I work on this type of job and companies in my industry are getting better about this in general. Working in dysfunctional places for a long time makes it hard to understand that there are other options out there. It’s taken me years to realize just that being yelled at in the workplace isn’t normal…

    18. TechWorker*

      We don’t generally get ‘free’ PTO but only because it’s built into the system, fairly good PTO to start with plus ‘emergency time off’/bereavement leave etc. Management is generally reasonable and saying something is impossible in the time is fine (I mean, they will be annoyed if you agree to something and then day of the deadline say you can’t get it done, but as long as you’re raising/reporting any problems, those problems are not yours solely to deal with).

    19. Hillary*

      Everywhere I’ve worked in the last 15 years has been like Alison describes, mostly for manufacturers, with the big caveat that I’m an experienced professional who manages my own hours. Part of my job is to manage my capacity and raise flags when I have too much on my plate, which is always. I never have enough bandwidth to get down to number five on my to do list. It’s also my job to manage my boundaries and not get completely burned out. I blocked two hours today to go get my covid booster and flu shot. I mentioned it in passing to my boss but only because I happened to see him. I choose to travel on Sunday nights because I’d rather spend an extra night in a hotel than get up at 4:00 for a 6:30 flight.

      In general larger for-profit places are going to have more formal support, although of course that isn’t universally true. Places focused on “the mission” can be more difficult because they can expect you to make an emotional commitment for less compensation. No one’s going to claim I need to be committed to the mission at an industrial manufacturer (I mean, it’s cool product and I’m proud of what we do, but we’re not saving lives). Roles that have more responsibility and are more knowledge based are usually more flexible, the tradeoff is higher stress and usually longer hours.

      No workplace is perfect, but lots of places are better than where you are now. Think about what’s important to you and why it matters. From there you can figure out what kind of work you want and start looking for functional workplaces. I’m a big fan of working to live, it’s 100% reasonable to find a job where you’re putting in your 40 hours to pay for the rest of your life.

    20. JumpAround*

      Well thank you all for basically confirming what I kind of already know lol. I worked at another place that was worse than this one previously (I think some of it is the field I’m in, but I’m very willing to leave the field and my degree isn’t super specific), so I was beginning to think some of this stuff was only in like 10% of work places. Most of my friends are in a similar field to me or startups so I can’t really use them to judge.

    21. RussianInTexas*

      My previous company, that laid me off, did all that.
      My current company, small, family owned – LOL

    22. Dino*

      My company has an EAP, but it’s useless. I brought up a really negative, egregious situation I experienced calling the EAP to our benefits director….. and nothing changed. He told me to call them again. *facepalm*

      Our perks are def just lip service.

    23. Moths*

      I would definitely look around at other workplaces/industries if you’re not seeing those things at your workplace.

      We have an EAP and I’ve utilized it a few times. And just yesterday, an employee came to me about both of those other things. They told me that they were having trouble getting to project X because projects Y and Z were still taking a lot of their time. We chatted about options and time frames and decided that project Z could be put on hold and that time on project Y could be reduced to just a few hours a week so that project X could be the priority. We’re planning to check back on it in a few weeks to see if that was a functional solution. The employee also let me know that a close family member had just been diagnosed with a serious illness and that they might need to travel a few times over the next few months to help out with things. I let them know that they were welcome to work remotely if they wanted to during that time or that they could take the time completely off if needed and to not worry if they don’t have enough PTO for it, just to go.

      The reason I felt comfortable saying these things is that my boss has extended the same support to me before. When I’ve raised problems with workload, it’s always been addressed and when I was coming back from parental leave recently, my boss let me know to take all the time I needed to transition back slowly and to not worry about putting the days into the time off system.

      I think the big things to look for are workplaces and management with high levels of trust (if you can find ways to screen for that). I know my employees work hard and put in extra time when needed to get projects done, so I have zero issue giving them flexibility when they need it. I assume my manager feels the same. I think that’s a general feeling around my company, though certainly it probably varies by department.

    24. Rosyglasses*

      My company is like this – I encourage use of PTO and grant time outside of it when the need arises. We have thorough on boarding and training and try to create a culture that is supportive and collaborative. So they do exist – but I don’t think they are the norm.

    25. Starbuck*

      “Are there places where saying “If you want me to accomplish X, Y and Z will suffer” and that’s acceptable?”

      Yep! That’s how it is at the small org I’m at.

      “I don’t think any of my friends work somewhere with an EAP”

      My org I think is too small to bother with this; my friend who works at the hospital does have access. I think it’s a large institution kind of thing.

      ” being “encouraged to take a few days off” or managers who are able to grant time off without using PTO ”

      I wouldn’t feel bothered asking for this, and I know other staff actually have. But we get so much PTO that it’s not a factor for me.

    26. Irish Teacher*

      Well, my name tells you I’m a teacher in Ireland and…while a lot of what Alison says seems very foreign to me, not only the stuff that IS foreign, but just because most of it seems to be assuming huge companies, which exist here, but certainly aren’t the default (I don’t know many places with a HR and so on), nonetheless, I could certainly say to the head of my department “if you want me to do x, y and z will suffer.” In fact, the previous head of the department specifically encouraged me to tell her if she was asking me to do too much and not to work beyond the hours I was paid for – I had 11 hours my first year in the school before getting full hours the second year. Teaching is NOT a job where we time-watch; our hours are just those in front of students, everything else – planning, correcting, discipline, etc is on our own time. But she was careful about asking too much.

      My current head of department even asked me at the end of last year what my ideal would be for my timetable – whether I’d prefer to have a few free classes first in the morning or last in the evening or combine them all one day to give myself an extra half day or whatever. He couldn’t promise I would GET what I asked for, as it depended on the school’s needs too but he tried to accommodate it where possible. And with both heads of department, I can say to them, “hey, I’d prefer not to schedule a class at x time if possible” or “I rather not take last class on Friday as the last two are currently free and it would mean hanging on for two and a half hours for one class” and they would accommodate that if possible.

      And when my dad died, I was told I could take extra days beyond what is technically allowed if I wanted and that I didn’t need to give any evidence.

      I do have more leeway than most teachers as I am a learning support teacher and while some things are set in stone – if a student is exempt from Irish, we need to provide supervision while the rest of the year are doing Irish – we do have quite a few situations where “this kid needs some extra support and we could take him out at this time or that; which would work better for you.” That is not possible if you have a main subject but it would still definitely be possible to make it clear that you cannot do certain things.

      We also have a lot of say. We vote for example on days off beyond what is prescribed by the government. In effect, this is a handful of days each year, but they are voted on by the whole staff. When it comes to things like…we are having a sort of open day for children only (there will be a separate one for parents but this is just for children in 5th class, so two years before starting secondary) and we are currently signing up to what we want to do for that. We can choose to do a demonstration of our subject or an extra-curricular subject or we can just choose to supervise on the day/lead tours, which means much less preparation.

      1. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

        Totally off-topic, Irish Teacher, but I 100% misinterpreted your name. I’ve grown up entirely in the Northeast part of the US, where “Irish” means something very different from actually being in Ireland! (If I could use emojis, there would be a series of facepalm and sweating-laughing and embarrassed emojis here.)

    27. ShinyShoes*

      Yes, absolutely. I work for a midsized manufacturing company that offers all the resources you mentioned and more. I think this can be attributed to our company’s values, not our industry itself though.

  16. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    Yo! What are your favorite wonky brain tips? I use a list and use forest ( to block internet fun) but I often get brain tired and complex tasks are not done ( complex for me: scheduling several people w different schedules who do not talk to each other, complex plans , etc)

    1. ecnaseener*

      Using a task list sorted by priority (due date + time needed to complete), so if I don’t have the brain juice to decide what to do next, the list can decide for me. Doesn’t directly help with tasks that are themselves complex, but saves some energy! I’ll post a link to one I use in a reply.

        2. September Ninth*

          These are really cool. Thank you for posting. They remind me of an Eisenhower Matrix but way more detailed.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      Super detailed lists and protocols! Like sometimes I’ll go so deep that my list will look like:
      1. Pull up Jane’s calendar
      2. Pull up Fergus’s calendar
      3. Overlay both calendars
      Etc.
      When my brain’s checked out it needs all the help it can get. I’ve learned to use functional brain to compensate for OOO brain in advance as much as possible.

      1. Anonymous Koala*

        I also consider making this list a “task” in and of itself, and I make mental space for it. I used to feel like preparing and organising didn’t “count” towards my work for a day, so if I spent a whole day making a detailed plan for the rest of the week I felt like I wasted a day. Getting out of that mindset really helped me.

    3. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      Pomodoro- I forget about it and don’t use it often, but when I do it, it does work.

      Reverse to do lists

      Eat the frog – do the thing you dread first.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I pomodoro. I’m not sure what reverse to do is and if I eat the frog I’ll procrastinate the entire day rather than eat it.

        1. Put the Blame on Edamame*

          Reverse to-do is writing out what you have actually done all day, it does wonders for my motivation (I use the IDoneThis app to capture it).

    5. sb51*

      I also have a backlog of non-urgent very simple/bordering on tedious tasks that if I’m just fried I pull out. Accomplishing one of them can boost my energy enough to go back to the complex tasks, and at least I got something done.

    6. Jenny Islander*

      I have good days and bad days. During my good days, I created a task list that specifies everything that has to be done periodically, when, and in what order. Originally this was in Outlook, but due to issues not relevant here, it’s now a Word document that I print off every Monday. It has space at the end to allow for addition of one-time tasks with extensive notes. When I show up at work with a foggy head, I can just follow the list. As a bonus, since my new boss has “stepped back from an authoritative position with which he is uncomfortable” = “allows anybody who feels like it to treat me like their personal assistant and makes vague noises when I exhibit frustration,” when people come to pick at me about why their special project isn’t ready yet, I have documentation that shows them why.

      I also take notes and send “Per our discussion this morning” emails about everything. It’s all kept in one place, marked with dates and topics. I don’t have to trust my foggy memory.

      I am allowed to control the lighting and music in my work area, so I keep the overhead off and play long tracks of instrumental music that I find on Youtube. Good days: Jeremy Soule et al. Bad days: the kind of repetitive stuff that includes New Age buzzwords plucked from assorted cultures and a frequency in Hz in the track title. They don’t realign my chakras with the Oversoul or whatever, but they do help me focus.

    7. Fluff*

      Coming late – I bought a Time timer which is a visual timer. It shows the time you have left as a “piece of pie” that shrinks as it counts down. This has been HUGE for me in conjunction with other tools. I think the visual cues my brain to fit into the time I have left. There are others. The time timer does not tick and you can silence the alarm.

  17. Crackerjack*

    Is anyone else’s workday being affected by Queen Elizabeth’s death? I’m in the UK but maybe this is happening elsewhere in the Commonwealth too.
    I have spent the day ringing round trying to co-ordinate events and our response and now have to rewrite a weekly newsletter that would normally go out this evening and make it a special edition. And Friday is kind of my (mostly) day off. Hey ho. But I’ve got a headache. And I’m not nearly done.

    1. Colette*

      I’m in Canada, and I read a twitter thread about a citizenship ceremony yesterday – they started the verification process before she died, then had to wait for the oath to be updated before they could do the actual ceremony.

      There is no impact on my job, but I’m sure there are people in the federal, provincial, and municipal governments here who are making a bunch of changes today.

      1. Melanie Cavill*

        As a fellow Canadian (and an operations nerd), I’m very interested in seeing how these changes roll out over the next couple of weeks. Reading about Operation: London Bridge was a fascinating look into how much work goes into abiding the Commonwealth monarchy.

        1. londonedit*

          I read an article about it all YEARS ago and have been fascinated ever since, and let me tell you it was so bizarre yesterday seeing it all play out just as I’d read about. The BBC news bulletin announcing her death was word for word, as was the content of the official Palace announcement etc. It’s particularly interesting seeing how it’s all playing out because the establishment and the BBC got it so very wrong when the Duke of Edinburgh died last year – people did NOT want an entire weekend of special TV and radio broadcasts, rolling news and sombre programming. There was a huge backlash. This is very different but I think last year’s experience has definitely informed a lot of what’s going on now – you can tell things have been subtly revised from how they might have been originally laid down.

          1. Melanie Cavill*

            the BBC got it so very wrong when the Duke of Edinburgh died last year – people did NOT want an entire weekend of special TV and radio broadcasts, rolling news and sombre programming

            I barely remember his passing but that makes perfect sense to me. A person’s death isn’t a situation that needs to be closely monitored for additional reporting. It’s pretty final. If it isn’t, then yes, I would love to hear more. But until then…!

          2. EvilQueenRegina*

            I read that article at the time, and did go back and read it again yesterday.

            Yes, definitely interesting in the Prince Philip context – I did find myself thinking back to the Queen Mother back in 2002 where the opposite happened and the BBC were criticised over their coverage, specifically Peter Sissons and his burgundy tie (which I have to admit I hadn’t noticed before it was reported the next day that people had complained.) After Alastair Stewart’s comments about how he didn’t think Huw Edwards should have been wearing black tie when she wasn’t, at that point, confirmed dead, I did feel like they can’t win whatever they do.

      2. Valancy Snaith*

        Federal govt here. Not only today, the changes will quite likely take several months to years to fully change over. From the physical (i.e., removing the Queen’s picture from buildings) to renaming everything that needs it is going to be a long process. We will be seeing things that have been printed with the tag “Her Majesty the Queen in right of Canada” for many, many years.

        1. Colette*

          Oh yeah, agreed, it will take time for things to change entirely – but things like the citizenship ceremony and passports are more visible, quicker to change, and (I assume) had a plan already in place. I’m kind of wondering if the mint is still doing it’s thing, or if they are holding off on new coins until they are updated. (Or if they are making Canadian coins at all at the moment.)

          1. Maree*

            In Australia the mint is continuing its run and has announced new coins for 2023. Just a point of reference.

      3. Robin Ellacott*

        I read the same thread and found it fascinating.

        I’m in Canada too, and it didn’t affect our operations, but I expect a lot of wording and imaging in official documentation will change. And of course we were all talking about it.

    2. londonedit*

      There’s no direct impact on my job (apart from a lot of Teams chat about it!) but it must be a nightmare for our social media team and anyone who routinely posts on social media as part of their job – we had several messages yesterday asking people not to post from company accounts, and today there’s been one main statement post from the company account but there’s still a ban on anything except reposting that. I think normal service on that will resume from Monday, but people are being asked to check any scheduled posts very carefully and consider the wording of future posts so as not to end up posting anything with any unfortunate wording.

      1. AngelicGamer, the Legally Blind Peep*

        The social media part – the Hamilton West End twitter was blasted for putting out a message. So was Les Mis’ cast, also in the UK, but they took theirs down.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Just in the sense that the news is EVERYWHERE and inescapable, and nobody seems to be able to talk about anything else. (I’m finding it a bit hard to deal with, as my mother died recently, and now another constant “presence/existence” has been removed.)

      I’ve been reflecting that I’m VERY thankful for a peaceful transfer of power in government (and in the monarchy), and think that this shouldn’t be under-estimated as vitally important to the continuation of civil society. (It might not be perfect, but it sure beats a lot of other options.)

      2. Ella Kate (UK)*

        Also recently bereaved and finding it hard to deal with – sending lots of empathy and good wishes.

    4. Not my usual name*

      Yes. We’ve had to pull scheduled socials, an e-newsletter, and a workshop. This has meant pausing a fundraising appeal. We’ve had to add statements to social and out website.

      We had a protocol all ready in case, but it’s still taken time to implement, taking us away from other urgent tasks.

      Although we are a charity, we don’t have a Royal patron, but it seems to be expected we do this as a ‘mark of respect’

      Of course, I am being very professional but inside I’m finding it all very cringey. All the time, money, floral tributes could be better spent sorting out the mess the country is in…

      1. Courtney Portnoy*

        The £30 million spent on Prince William’s wedding could have also been donated to the NHS or been given as repatriation to any of the countries harmed by colonialism instead. I won’t get too political here, but sadly, I think cringe is inherent to a monarchy in 2022 and is only going to escalate in the coming months.

      2. Crackerjack*

        I work for the Church of England so we need an official response, and the Church had one of course but individual churches like mine weren’t particularly ready. We don’t have huge events, but some have been cancelled and this has taken a bite out of our plans for Harvest (the next big season). Plus all the new commemorative things to plan for the next two weeks.

      3. Starbuck*

        It does seem like a staggeringly wasteful expense, but then that’s the monarchy summed up for you.

    5. Scot Librarian*

      I’ve had to pull socials for today and the weekend, plus my workplace had a govt minister coming to visit next week to talk about the work we do, but that’s been cancelled. I’m sick of it all already as a Scottish anti monarchist

    6. Yay, I’m a Llama Again!*

      Not directly related, but I found myself feeling really out of sorts this morning. I didn’t really know how to start my workshop – should I mention it or not? Should I assume people would be upset? I found it tough not to have been given a bit of steer by my team (I’m in the UK). And my brain wobbles every time I hear ‘His Majesty’ or ‘The King’ – it feels odd!

    7. The Prettiest Curse*

      (I’m in the UK.)
      There were 2 big award dinners in our city yesterday – 1 went ahead as planned, 1 was cancelled last-minute (news came through around 6pm) after event crews had spent the whole day setting up. We will probably send out our newsletter a bit later than planned – otherwise, no major changes because we don’t have any events scheduled till October.

      I pity any event planner who has a big event coming up in the next week or so – what a nightmare!

    8. EvilQueenRegina*

      I am in UK local government, so far most of the day to day operations are proceeding as normal, things like formal council meetings have been suspended but other things like social workers visiting families are still going ahead.

      Anyone public facing / attending any external meetings that are still happening was asked to wear dark clothing by the Chief Executive but our immediate director has issued a different email saying to use our own judgement re clothing, don’t think they talked to each other.

      We were supposed to be hearing the outcome of an inspection next week but that has been postponed to a date TBC.

      In the event that the funeral is on a weekday I think we will be closing that day.

    9. Adrian*

      OT, but kind of similar story. When Elvis Presley died in 1977, People magazine was only three years old and nowhere near the pop culture iconic publication it would become.

      So it didn’t occur to the publisher to stop the presses and change the cover story (Mia Farrow). Afterword they caught so much flack, they vowed that never again would any public figure’s death go unacknowledged on their pages.

    10. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      My workday hasn’t changed, but NY state is flying their flags at half mast. I thought that a nice touch.

    11. Bagpuss*

      I’m in the UK, and no, not really.
      It’s mildly irritating that they haven’t announced when the funeral will be, as we will have to make a decision about closing, and it would be useful to know if the courts will be closed.

    12. Aliens are (un)Real*

      I work in content moderation, so some of our teams were impacted with needing to issue guidance on conspiracy theories / funeral pictures / misinformation. Thankfully / sadly most of this was in place already, since the major types of conspiracy theories people tend to use don’t shift that much.

      1. Frustrated Freelancer*

        I posted about this separately but I have had work cancelled – performing street theatre – as the town council that was hosting the event pulled it. And 2 other days as part of the same project have been postponed so I am out 3 days income (I am freelance)

    13. Keymaster of Gozer*

      Yes. Planned strikes called off, events cancelled, lots of meetings.

      And there were quite a few people crying. Myself included.

    14. Office Gumby*

      Here in Australia, it was present, but low-key. We have a belltower at work, so at noon, we did the 96-toll. Quite lovely to hear that solitary bell ring for about five minutes.

      But then our marketing department filmed it and used it for our official online response. They spent the next several hours editing it, so our area spent the rest of the afternoon hearing echoes of that tolling bell. Not that I minded too much, as it was better than ringing phones.

      Nobody felt like doing much work, so nobody called us much.

  18. Minimal Pear*

    I actually have two questions, hope it’s okay to post them separately. I’m helping my friend, who is a freelancer, raise her prices. She is SEVERELY underpaying herself. However, she is worried that if she asks for the correct price, she will lose clients. I only got her to reluctantly agree to a $2 increase because I pointed out that that’s the bare minimum to keep up with inflation. Any more than that and she starts worrying, so I suggested a sliding scale, with the hope that at least some of her clients would be willing to pay more. How does this part of the email template I wrote up for her sound?

    I’m reaching out because I am raising my prices due to inflation; unfortunately, it is no longer sustainable to charge only $16/hr. [There may be a sentence here about how she also needs money to pay for a direct billing setup.] I understand that times are tough for us all, so I’m implementing a self-selecting sliding scale of $18-$25/hr. That way you can choose how much to pay within that range.
    Please let me know what rate you’re able to pay! If I don’t hear back from you, I’ll default to the minimum of $18/hr. This increase will take effect starting with [event on date].

    Also, with the direct billing, she tried to set it up in the past and said she couldn’t figure it out. Does anyone know of resources to help here?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I would recommend she default closer to the higher end of that, because who’s going to self-select paying $25 when they could pay $18?

      Would it be possible for her to start with a new rate (say, $20) for new projects or clients?

      1. Minimal Pear*

        She REFUSES to go higher, I love her so much she’s one of my best friends but I did have to spend about an hour cajoling her just to get her to agree that she should in fact go up to $18 just to account for inflation. She’s very very worried that people will drop her if she goes for too high of a price–apparently when she gave herself a $1 raise last year, one of her clients said that it cost too much and they dropped her.

        1. ThatGirl*

          okay, ONE client dropped her, but the rest paid? so presumably that made up for the loss of business? Like, wouldn’t she rather work, say, 30 hours a week for $30 an hour than 60 hours a week for $15? I’m not formulating the thoughts very well, but basically … if you set your rate too low, you eventually run out of time in the week to make enough to pay yourself. If you raise it, the ones who don’t want to or can’t pay self-select out, and you give yourself more time and either the same or more money.

          1. Minimal Pear*

            I think part of her worry about losing clients is that she is doing this specific thing for groups of people (like I said below, think clown who performs at birthday parties), so having one person drop from a group can seriously change the vibe of the group and might make the whole group eventually drop the service. She also has a lot of emotional attachment to all her clients and feels really bad if they have to drop out because they can’t afford it.
            I thought about making the same argument re: other clients making up for the one dropping out, but I wasn’t sure if she’d buy it because of the emotional component. Like, I think her problem was less the loss of the money and more that she really liked that client and was sad to see them go.

            1. Reba*

              Kindly, Minimal Pear, you can’t do this for her.

              I totally understand there is a lot of emotional weight with caring-type work. I think your friend might benefit from some chats with someone in her same field who might be able to help her with balancing the work needs and emotion entanglement.

              1. Minimal Pear*

                Yeah, I’m definitely trying to keep myself from getting TOO emotionally involved, but at the same time it’s very much a “sometimes you need someone else providing external motivation” situation. (To be clear, I offered to help and she explicitly consented.)
                I let her know your idea of talking to other people who do similar jobs!

      2. Jess*

        I was just asked to self select a price for socks and I decided I’d rather not have them at all then over or under offer.

    2. NLR*

      Sliding scale isn’t usually “pay what you want.” It’s more like $X for companies of a certain size/budget, $Y for companies of this other size/budget, etc. I would find this email from a contractor a bit amateurish, to be honest. She should decide what to raise her prices to and let clients know. It can be a different rate for different clients. Also, don’t include the language about needing money to pay for a billing setup; that isn’t clients’ problem to care about.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        The problem is that she really should be getting $25/hr but she refuses to SAY that because she’s so worried that people will just say “oh that’s too expensive” and dump her. $18 is just the bare minimum to keep up with inflation, it’s not actually a “raise” at all. The only way I could convince her to bring up the possibility of more than $18/hr was if I phrased it this way.
        This is in a very informal setting–I was actually worried this email was too formal and structured. Think something like… I don’t know, a clown who performs at birthday parties or something?

        1. NLR*

          It’s not too formal, it’s the opposite, too informal. I would be annoyed to get an email from a contractor asking me to figure out what to pay them. That’s just shifting the burden from them to me when it should be on them. Do not let her send this sliding scale message. (Sorry to be blunt but to explain how it’s landing–I would accept this from the teenager who babysits for me, not an adult professional.)

          If you can’t convince her, then you can’t convince her. It’s up to her how she runs her business.

          1. Minimal Pear*

            Babysitting is actually a much closer comparison to her job than birthday party clown was! That’s why there’s such an emotional aspect of getting client-dumped–it’s like if she’d been babysitting this really awesome kid who she got along with super well, and then the kid’s parents stop hiring her because she raised her price by a dollar, or whatever.

            1. felia*

              The babysitting example was a red herring. NLR was saying they would accept this from a teenager who is too young to know any better, not from an adult running their own business.

            2. fhqwhgads*

              But also, fwiw, in a lot of parts of the country (if you’re in the US), $25/hr is what babysitters get.

        2. Beer Me Some Common Sense*

          Even with an informal job you can still make formal statements. Maybe see if she would raise her current clients to the $18/hr and then make her new client price $25/hr. Let the current clients know they are being given a special loyalty rate. People always love getting a discount, and framing it that way shows she’s valued their business so far. Hopefully she does raise her rates, it can be hard but you want to have clients that understand your worth and know you get what you pay for.

        3. Starbuck*

          “she’s so worried that people will just say “oh that’s too expensive” and dump her.”

          What’s the competition charging? Could people really find a cheaper option, or are her prices as rock bottom as you think? I am not clear what the work is, but even $25 / hour sounds like a very low rate for a freelancer!

    3. Sassenach*

      I would not provide a sliding scale. I would give a set amount like $25 and if a client reaches out directly she can say “Ok, I’d be willing to go down to $20 for six months, will that work?”

      1. Minimal Pear*

        I suggested this to her but I will say I’m not sure it’ll work–the clients all know each other and might talk about it/realize they’re paying different amounts.

    4. Lynn*

      Someone… maybe Wired or the Cut? Just did a piece on the Picasso principle that your friend might benefit from reading (and then some of this will come from a neutral third party instead of you)

      1. Minimal Pear*

        I’m not seeing anything on Wired or the Cut. Is “the Picasso principle” used as a name for multiple things? The article I did find didn’t seem related to this situation.

        1. sagewhiz*

          Has to do with an apocryphal story, the gist of it being (and not verbatim to original):
          Picasso and a friend were dining one evening. A lady approached, gushed about how she loved the artist’s work, and asked if he would draw her something on a napkin. He did, handed it to her and said, “That will be $40,000 (or some-such).” Aghast, she said,”But it took you only seconds!” His reply, “No, madam, it took me 40 years to learn to do that in seconds.”

          We don’t base fees on how much time we spend, we base our fees on our level of expertise.

    5. Hlao-roo*

      Can you do some math with her to show her how many clients she can afford to lose for each increase in rate? And then try to work out a good assessment of how many clients she is likely to lose for each increase in rate to find out where she will end up ahead.

      Simple math just for an example:

      Currently has 20 clients. Each client wants 100 hrs of work per year (2000 hrs/yr total). Current rate is $16/hr.

      20 clients x 100 hrs/client/yr x $16/hr = $32,000/yr

      If she raises the rate to $18/hr, she can afford to lose 2 clients (even losing 2 clients, she’ll still be slightly money ahead):

      18 clients x 100 hrs/client/yr x $18/hr = $32,400/yr

      If she raises the rate to $20/hr, she can afford to lose 4 clients:

      16 clients x 100 hrs/client/yr x $20/hr = $32,000/yr

      So then the questions are: will she lose 2 clients by raising rates to $18/hr? Will she lose 4 clients by raising rates to $20/hr? Will she be able to find new clients at those rates?

      2. Minimal Pear*

        I adjusted this for my best guesstimate of the number of clients and hours and sent her that info, thanks for the example!

    6. Anonymous Koala*

      Instead of a sliding scale, can she institute a pre-paid package of services? So if someone books 1 hr at a time, they pay $25/hr, but if they book 3 hrs the price goes down to $20/hr, etc? That might feel more palatable to your friend and give her more of a buffer against changing costs.

      2. TechWorker*

        +1 came here to say this

        First x hours/month (or whatever makes sense): $25/hour
        After that price drops to $22 then $20 or whatever

        The price reduction has to make sense for her and the customer :)

    7. Chapeau*

      Try Lori Widmer’s blog, Words on the Page. It’s for writers, but she’s very passionate and articulate about why you should charge more and how to go about doing it. She also specifically addresses your friend’s issue with losing clients, including letting them know in the next month or so that rates will change at the first of the year and similar things.
      It’s wordsonpageblog . com

    8. Reba*

      Agree with others, this is not a good idea. She can use a sliding scale, but it’s a scale that exists *in her head*/her work planning process. Freelancers can — perhaps should! — quote different rates for different clients/projects.

      You do *not* need to reference everyone’s tough times. Also, clients can always try to negotiate rates, there is no reason to openly invite them to pay you less! You can just say, I’m raising rates, thank you for understanding.

      To soften the blow, she could offer existing clients a longer ramp up to the new rate, while starting new clients at the new rate. “My rate is now $X. For current clients, as a courtesy, I am extending the old rate to you for the next 3 months/end of this project/whatever makes sense”

    9. learnedthehardway*

      I am self-employed, and periodically raise my rates to match inflation. That’s usually pretty easy to justify. Occasionally, I’ve given myself a “raise” as well, when I have well-established relationships with clients, there’s been some kind of change in their business or mine, and I can point out that the value I bring merits it.

      One thing I typically do is to start new clients at the higher rates, and then tell longer term clients that other clients are paying $X now. I value their business and want to remain able to pay them full attention, but the new client rate is really attractive. That often helps…

    10. Not A Manager*

      Seven dollars is too great a range at those prices. And frankly, she might be right that a jump from $16 to $25 will seem huge to people. Can you convince her to send that letter with one price jump to, say, $20/hour, and put in a sentence that she is willing to work with longtime clients to transition them to the new pricing structure if necessary?

      That way, she’s forcing people to opt-out of her new structure, rather than the current language where they need to opt-in to the higher price. She’s also making it clear that price reductions are on a case-by-case basis and won’t last forever. And I do think that $20 from most people will work out better for her than $25 from very few people.

    11. PollyQ*

      My sense of pay scale is badly skewed by living in California, but $18-$25/hour is what people working in fast food make here, and that’s as employees, not freelancers. Does your friend know the rule of thumb that contractors should charge 2x as much as W2 employees to account for payroll taxes, SS, lack of benefits, etc? If she’s charging $18/hr, then that’s the equivalent of a regular salary of $9.

      But ultimately, you can’t fix this for her. It’s her job and her business, and she’s the one who gets to make the call on how to run it.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Ah, California… (I’m originally Californian.) No, luckily our cost of living is better here, but I did just remind her to think about taxes!

        1. Velociraptor Attack*

          I’m in an area with a middle-ranked cost of living for the states (it’s actually right around the average) and fast food workers are being hired at $15 an hour here.

    12. RagingADHD*

      As a freelancer, I think the idea of a sliding scale sounds incredibly unprofessional and like she’s a charity begging for money. Either her work has value or it doesn’t. She is letting her self-doubt sabotage her business.

      If this takes place in an informal setting, it’s a bad idea to broach the topic by email. If she usually talks to clients face to face or on the phone in a real-time setting, then she needs to bring it up the same way and send the email to confirm. Clients will be much warmer to the idea if they have a face to face relationship, and more likely to agree in person/real time. Hearing it first by email is going to put people off even if they are not all that price sensitive in the big picture. (That would not be the case if email were the normal mode of communication).

      Either way, yes, she will lose the clients who aren’t willing to pay what she’s worth. The strategy to deal with that is to *find new clients*. Losing deadweight is a feature, not a bug.

      If she needs to step into the rate increase gradually, she can segment her client list and propose different rate increases according to what she knows about the clients’ budget and processes. Or she can do a small increase now, and another small one later.

      But she has to be out looking for new business at the same time. I agree with others that you can’t manage her business for her. This is one of those areas where “gumption” is not a bad word. She has to have her own. You can’t have gumption for her.

    13. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Well…first things first. It’s her business, she can do what she wants!

      But let’s indulge anyway. If she’s a professional, keep it professional.

      “Good morning,
      Thank you for supporting my business! This email is to notify you that I am updating my pricing from $16/hr to $25/hr effective September 30, 2022. As always, I am here to support you and would be happy to discuss how I can best cater my service options to your future needs.”

      As for what rate is appropriate, it depends on the market. Generally, $25/hour is low for an independent contractor. A rule of thumb would be 2.5-3x your base rate (covering base salary, plus overhead, plus profit). If a business charges a client $25/hour, they’re likely paying their employee around $8.30/hour. So depending on the state, your friend is awfully close to minimum wage.

      My piano lessons cost $45 for a half hour. My teacher is a well credentialed professional and I respect his time and expertise…I have actually thought quite a bit recently about whether he should raise his rate.

  19. Vegas*

    Part of my job involves recruiting and I message people on LinkedIn that match the profile we’re looking for about jobs that we have open. I try to be as transparent as possible – I give a one-sentence summary of the company, the title of the role, the pay range, what benefits we offer, and then I ask them to reach out if they’d like to learn more about the role. Recently I’ve been encountering people who respond letting me know that they make way more money than the role offers (often they make way more than I make), and they are acting offended that I reached out with such an insulting opportunity. Saying stuff like “Good luck with that.” Is there any way I can respond and provide some clarity on why this happens? It is often very difficult to tell seniority levels from job titles so although I don’t cast a wide net, inevitably sometimes I’ll message someone who’s way more senior than I could tell from their title. I admit it ‘gets’ to me, and I feel an impulse to correct their rudeness. Something like, “I apologize, it can be difficult to gauge seniority levels by titles but I can see now that this role wouldn’t be a good fit for you.” But probably better to just ignore it, right?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Just ignore it. You’ve given them information they need to make a decision; they’re letting you know why they made that decision.

      The only thing I would consider is looking at whether there’s a common factor among these folks (location, years of experience, etc) that means you should rule people with that factor out going forward.

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      Yeah, just ignore it. When I get opportunities on LI I am not interested in, I just send a polite “no thanks” email, or if it is way off-base, just ignore it. These people are just being rude.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      I’m also going to say ignore it. Don’t engage with folks like this. I get the impulse, but it doesn’t accomplish anything in the end.

    4. Prospect Gone Bad*

      If they are unreasonable maybe “blacklist” them and respond “I will keep this in mind.”

      It depends on what the job is though. I make low 100s and still get spammed for jobs in the $17 an hour range.

      But if someone responds with a job > 70K I consider it a “real” job and am polite with the recruiter, otherwise I ignore it

    5. Anonymous Koala*

      Echoing advice to ignore it, but I also wanted to ask if it’s possible you’re not reaching out to people with jobs significantly below the expertise you’re looking for, but it’s just the salary that’s way off base. I’ve been reached out to for jobs that wanted 3-5 years of experience after a PhD that only pay $30/hr without benefits (most people with that experience would make closer to $60-70/hr in my field). I know recruiters don’t often control salary, but I just wanted to suggest you look to see if there’s a pattern to these responses that you’re missing.

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      Ignore it. BUT, if it’s making you suspect that your company is paying under market rate and it’s happening often that people are saying this, I would recommend you bring that back to whoever determines salaries and say “At least half the people who I determine to be good candidates for this role are telling me that they make 25% more than the high end of the salary range. I’m concerned that unless we raise the range for this position, we won’t be able to fill it with someone who is qualified for the role.

    7. learnedthehardway*

      Just ignore, or write back that you’ll be happy to consider them for more senior roles or if/when you have the budget to do so for this role. Then ask for referrals – they might know a more junior person who would find the comp range attractive.

      Also, don’t read negativity into a short social media response – they may genuinely be wishing you luck in filling the role, but are coming across tersely. These messages are in a low-context medium, so intent is hard to determine.

    8. lost academic*

      Ignore it, but also use their responses and information to adjust your targets. I’m sympathetic to new recruiters or people outside their field of expertise targeting the wrong individuals but you have to use the information you’re getting to learn and calibrate. It’s one thing if you think you might be in the right range, but in the past I’ve had recruiters target me for jobs directly in line with my current and past positions/field/experience where the experience and subsequent pay were half of what I had. That’s just sloppy. That’s an obvious mismatch. I get casting a wide net but there’s got to be some nuance.

    9. Nesprin*

      Those are ‘no thanks’ emails.
      I’ve dealt with recruiters who don’t take no for an answer- often ‘the I make 40% more than you’re offering’ is the most effective way to say no.

      If you keep a database of contacts, update them as more senior than their job title reflects and move on.

      1. HoundMom*

        Exactly this. If you are targeted by the same company multiple times for roles that are very junior, it is frustrating. I usually just say no thanks and don’t engage, but I remember one situation where I literally asked to be blackballed from their list.

    10. RagingADHD*

      If this happens more than occasionally, have you considered that there is a problem with your job listings/requirements, or that your profile-screening process may need adjustment?

      Linkedin contains date information for each role a person has had. It contains job descriptions. It usually contains their entire work history.

      Why can’t you tell how senior they are?

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        This is my question too- aren’t you able to see position details under their title and get a sense of seniority from there? Or are you getting matches from, say, LinkedIn itself and not checking to confirm the match is good before sending out your messages?

    11. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Ignore it and don’t take it personally as it’s misdirected at you. Many of these candidates are bombarded by unsolicited messages from recruiters, and many of those messages are unprofessional and careless.

      But also, continue to work with your client on better feedback for the position to help you target the best candidates. I know recruiting is a numbers game, but narrowing the field always helps.

  20. Alpaca Bag*

    Not a question – just excited because I just had a job interview and used the magic question about the difference between what would make a great employee instead of just a good one, and asked if they have any reservations about my candidacy that I could address. I think it went very well.

    3. Alice*

      Bravo! Fingers crossed for your Alpaca.
      I will comment that I also used the “difference between a great employee and a good one” in an interview once, where the interviewing panel was the hiring manager and the team. Not a good move in those circumstances :( I don’t know if they ghosted me because they thought I was a glory hound or just impolitic or maybe it was something else altogether…. Anyway, glad it worked well for you!

  21. tiny*

    I wish saying “that’s not my job” wasn’t viewed as such an absolute no-no. I am currently two months into a task that someone whose job it IS could have done in literally one day. Who is winning here?

    1. ecnaseener*

      I mean, I don’t think saying “this isn’t the type of work I usually do, wouldn’t Fergus be able to do it much faster than me?” is such a no-no.

      1. Starbuck*

        Yes, tone and phrasing matters here. Projecting confusion rather than, say, contempt is going to go over much better most of the time. Like, ‘Oh, that would take me X amount of time since it’s not my expertise, wouldn’t someone in the expert role who could do it in X/10 time make more sense?’ or similar.

    2. Lynn*

      IMO “that’s not my job” is viewed negatively partially because it just shuts the door; you can broach the conversation collaboratively and with an open minded but point to the same end in a more positive way: “I would be happy to do X but I don’t have the skillset or experience to do it quickly and I may have some questions along the way. If this needs to be done quickly is there anyone else like A who may have that experience?”

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Is there a way to hand off the task to the proper person? For example, if someone says “tiny, I have 20 llamas for you to groom!” can you respond with “oh, let me introduce you to Joe, the llama groomer. He can take care of those llamas for you.” A warm hand-off is much more professional version of “that’s not my job.”

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I would recommend this route. “It’s not my job” sounds like both “it’s not my job” and “I don’t want to help you.” But you can help the person by finding out whose job it is and getting them in touch with that person.

        That’s assuming, of course, that the person trying to get you to do thing-that-isn’t-your-job is acting in good faith…

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      It is right that a flat “that’s not my job” with nothing more is rude and negative, but a slight rephrase “oh, I don’t handle X, Jane can do that for you” is fine.

    5. Beer Me Some Common Sense*

      My boss and I have a tendency to yell “not my circus, not my monkeys!” when our clients try to get us to do things out of our scope :) Straight up saying this isn’t my job doesn’t normally go over well, but you can always put the professional spin on the words. Things like, “That’s normally handled by Fergus but I can definitely help out. Is there someone that can give me an overview and answer questions I have? My experience is in tea pots more than saucers so I may need extra guidance.” Putting it in a way like that makes you sound like a team player but lets them know you’re not going to be the quickest person to get it done, or that there may be mistakes they’ll have to help with. They may decide to help you learn it, or they may realize they want it done quicker and leave you alone.

    6. CheeryO*

      Who gave you the task? If your supervisor doesn’t know that you’re working on it, I think they would want to know. That doesn’t sound like an efficient use of resources.

  22. Bitsy Brandenham*

    I need the collective memory of the routine commenters! I’m due to come up with some professional development goals for the next year and I remembered an “Ask the Readers” style column here where everyone commented on trainings and classes they had found most useful/worth the investment. I asked Alison about it and it didn’t ring a bell for her, but I swear it happened! Maybe it wasn’t an official Ask the Readers but something that happened informally in the comment section? If anyone recalls it and could link to it I’d be forever grateful. And if it doesn’t exist and I just made it up, Alison, I think folks like me would get a lot of use out of a column like that. Thanks!

    1. TradeMark*

      I will validate you that it did happen. I remember it too. It might have been on a Friday open thread sometime this past year?

      1. Chapeau*

        I was thinking it was in the last several weeks. There was a Friday open thread where someone talked about their company slashing their training/conference budget and asking for suggestions on low-cost but valuable training.
        I remember wanting to note it for myself, but I didn’t. Or at least I didn’t do it on my phone.

    3. Amey*

      Any chance it was the ‘what fields have hiring booms right now?’ Ask the Readers in July? Alison specifically asked people to list the kind of qualifications that people would need to switch into their field and there was some really interesting discussion about different qualification and training for different fields.

      Although as I think about it, I’m pretty sure there was a post more accurately covering what you’re saying here…

    4. Cavalcade*

      I think it’s this post from April 22, 2022, “employee is too focused on typos, can I put my cat’s TikTok account on my resume, and more”, question 5 was asking about the best professional development courses people have taken. I’ll post at link in another comment.

        1. Bitsy Brandenham*

          YES!!!! Thank you so much, Cavalcade, and everyone who took a look to try to find it. I am bookmarking it this time.

  23. Mimmy*

    I was talking with my counselor last night about my job search and how helpful behavioral interviewing has been. She said something I found odd and wanted to run it by you guys:

    For the “tell me about a time you had a conflict with a coworker” question, she said I should start with something like, “I usually don’t have conflicts but here’s an example of when I did…” (I don’t recall the exact wording she suggested). I would think saying I usually don’t have conflicts would turn interviewers off. Am I right?

    1. ecnaseener*

      I think the key is to separate out constructive disagreements from disruptive arguments. If the question is framed like they’re asking about arguments, it’s a very good idea to say something about how you value maintaining good relationships with colleagues and keep disagreements constructive (aka you don’t usually have Bad Conflicts with coworkers). But you’re right to not want to sound overly defensive, or like you’re afraid to disagree.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Yea, don’t add that. There will always be conflict (and conflict is not all bad!) and answering that question doesn’t mean that you have a lot of conflict – you’re just answering the question about a single instance. The suggested wording feels like the same sort of answer where someone answers what their weakness is by giving a strength instead.

      1. NewJobNewGal*

        Agreed. Conflict doesn’t mean fighting, just a differing of opinions. And different ideas should exist in a modern workplace.
        I always answer with some form of:
        I thought we should do this. They thought we should do that.
        I said why we should do my idea.
        They listened and 1.) Agreed, or 2.) Disagreed and I respected their decision.

    3. JelloStapler*

      Yea, it seems a little weird. I think it is assumed that everyone has had at least one conflict/disagreement/difference of opinion with someone else. It also seems odd to say you don’t but then give an example of when you did. If you really want to, maybe you could change it to “Thankfully, I have not had a lot of experience with this, but here is an example of…”

      But I don’t expect people to claim they don’t usually have conflicts while answering a question like that.

    4. FashionablyEvil*

      I find that many, many work conflicts are caused by misaligned expectations–personally, I would use this question to talk about how you’ve dealt with a situation where expectations clearly weren’t aligned (in terms of that the work product was, the quality/level of polish needed, the timing, etc.), how you addressed it, and how you decided to move forward.

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      I don’t think that you should add it. It would probably make me think that you saw conflict only as a negative to be avoided, rather than as a normal part of work. Conflict doesn’t necessarily mean raised tempers and heated arguments. It can mean something as simple as “team X and my team have overlapping duties, and we were finding that we had a different understanding of who was responsible for what.”

    6. Librarian of SHIELD*

      A lot of people want to lean into “I’m not the kind of person who has a lot of conflicts” in interviews because they think that’s what interviewers want to hear. But when I ask “tell me about a time you disagreed with a coworker and what you did to resolve it,” I’m not testing to see if you’re a drama magnet. I’m asking because everybody’s going to have a coworker who they disagree with at some point and I need to know you’ll handle it professionally and appropriately when that happens.

      I categorically do not trust people who respond to that question with “oh, I never have conflicts at work, I get along with everybody.” Nobody get along with everybody 100% of the time. One of your coworkers will annoy you eventually and I need to know that you’ve thought through how to handle that.

    7. BellyButton*

      I would say something like “it wasn’t really a conflict, it was more of a difference in approach/strategy. We worked through it by making sure we both understood where each was coming from and being respectful of the other’s experience and understanding the bigger picture as each saw it…”

    8. Hillary*

      You’re right. If someone says they don’t have conflicts I worry they don’t stand up for themselves. Healthy disagreement is a normal part of working relationships. I usually reframe the question to talk about when I didn’t agree on a course of action and how we moved forward.

    9. Qwerty*

      Nope, don’t take her advice. You are correct that it won’t play well to interviewers.

      Trying to avoid the conflict question is a flag for me if you work with others. (People who work almost entirely solo don’t have much material for this question, so I usually have back up questions for them) Anything where people try to downplay it or say “it isn’t really a conflict, but X” reads poorly to me. It isn’t this question alone – usually these people have yellow flags in other team related answers, but you don’t want to make that association in the interviewer’s mind.

      Usually people who try to skirt or downplay the conflict question view conflict as bad. That could mean only associating conflict with arguments and dramatics. Or it could mean being so conflict avoidant they won’t have simple conversations with coworkers or won’t state their opinion in meetings. Or they are only used to working with a homogeneous team that always thinks alike. Or are trying to appear “perfect” for the interview and are saying what they think I want to hear.

      Similarly, the best responses to this question are practical ones that are likely to come up again. Talk about when you and someone else had different creative approaches or vision for a product. Or when half the team really wanted to take the same days off but there was a coverage issue. These tell me what it would be like to have you on the team (and my response will probably tell you about the culture too) Don’t give something trivial – it’s like saying your weakness is that you work too hard.

    10. Stephivist*

      Hiring manager here. It wouldn’t turn me off or send up a red flag on its own, but I’d also just assume that you’d been coached to think that conflict = negative and you have to spin it away in your answer.

      Sounds like your counselor is thinking that conflict means drama when it really means “I disagreed with this person on how to approach work.” Preface your example with something about how you value maintaining good relationships like ecnaseener suggests and you’ll be good.

    11. RagingADHD*

      You’re right.

      Your counselor is telling you to “well, actually” your interviewer. That is not going to go well. It’s going to make you sound pompous and like you are focusing on the wrong thing. Nobody wants to work with someone who routinely reframes questions to make themselves look better instead of giving a substantive answer, or insists on it before addressing the substance. People like that are exhausting.

      It think it points to a surprising lack of understanding about conversational dynamics/interpersonal skills from someone who is supposed to be a counselor. Does your counselor “well, actually” you a lot? Because I wouldn’t keep going to one who did that to me.

    12. Mimmy*

      Wow, thank you all for the responses and confirming my instincts.

      In fact, you all just gave me a new perspective on workplace conflict. I too thought it was more negative than not. The example I’ve given at my last couple of interviews was when I had a disagreement with a coworker that was slightly heated but then I later texted her with an apology and context for why I was upset, and she responded favorably, sharing her perspective.

      AAM readers are so wise! ;)

    13. Dark Macadamia*

      I think it would sound silly. They’re not asking because they assume/care about the amount of conflict in your life, they want to hear about your skills

  24. salary band issues*

    Happy Friday, everyone! I found a copy of my job description from 2016, and the stated pay range was…exactly the same as it is now. If it had kept up with inflation, the upper limit of the range would be about $15k more than it is. I know my boss is going through a salary survey now to re-evaluate the salary bands, but I am not sure if mine will actually change. I’m not sure whether I should bring this up with her now, or wait until our year-end retention interview (when we get asked about our priorities for pay, PTO, advancement, etc.)

    On one hand, I don’t want to seem like I’m jumping the gun if my range is already going to change. On the other, I’m not sure if it would be more difficult to change the salary band after the survey is completed. I’ve only been here a year, and already my pay isn’t keeping up with inflation–which I know is common this year, but it’s pretty demoralizing in combination with finding out that the range hasn’t shifted in 6 years.

    2. Cookie Monster*

      Don’t wait. Like you said, if you wait until your year-end interview, it might be too late by then. Ask to speak to her now and just lay out the facts calmly, as if you’re giving her the benefit of the doubt, like “of course you’d want to know I’m making the same as I was in 2016 because you are a reasonable person and will also find this unacceptable without me having to say that outright.”

      1. salary band issues*

        Oh, this was before I started at my job. So, my predecessors were making the same range as I am now.

        I am making slightly more than I started with (still within my current range) due to an organization-wide COLA, which did not keep up with inflation either. I do not think that merit-based pay increases are common in my organization unless the employee is promoted.

  25. RMNPgirl*

    Money vs time?
    I currently work in a non-profit healthcare industry. My company offers pretty good healthcare, 4% 403b matching, and amazing PTO. I currently get 32 days off a year and every 5 years it goes up by 5 days, maxing out at 42 days a year. They also do a PTO buy down program each fall. The culture is also good and very accepting of remote work and flexibility.
    However, since it’s non-profit salaries are a bit lower. I am wondering if I should look at moving into industry where I could get 20,000-30,000 more a year. But most of the positions/companies I’ve looked into don’t offer nearly as much time off. I know this is really a decision I have to make for myself, but am wondering what others would think of doing? Would you trade fewer days off for more money?

    1. Paris Geller*

      That’s so individual, but I (probably) wouldn’t! First, though-your salary is lower than it could be, but is it still enough to support you? If you’re struggling with bills and life necessities, then yes, potentially going to a new opportunity for more money and less PTO would make sense. However, if you can afford your necessities and also save some/reach any financial goals you have, then I personally wouldn’t move. Time off is important to me for many reasons and I would be hard-pressed to give up a good PTO package.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Personally, I would stick with the PTO over more money. Does the salary meet your needs? Are you on target for meeting any financial goals? Unless my answers were no to those, PTO all the way for me.

    3. NewJobNewGal*

      I was in the same spot and ended up leaving. Just like you, I thought I was underpaid by $30k, but I was actually way, WAY, underpaid. It’s been 5 years and I now make $70k more than at the non-profit. Switching jobs and collecting experience allowed me to move up the payscale. I would have been in the same spot with the same salary if I had stayed.
      Not having my PTO was a kick for a while, but I’m now at another non-profit that pays well, has an excellent 401k, and generous PTO. So you don’t necessarily have to make a trade. There are companies, and non-profits that pay well and have good benefits.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      The questions I would ask myself in this situation are:

      What do I currently do with my PTO?

      What would I do with the increase in salary?

      Which option (stick with current PTO/leave for higher salary) fits better with my values and the life I want to be living?

      Like Decidedly Me, unless my needs/financial goals were not being met, I would likely stick with the higher PTO.

    5. Qwerty*

      Do you actually get to use your days? If you were to take advantage of the buy down program to pair your PTO days down to 2-3 weeks (or whatever matches the industry you are moving to), what is the salary difference then?

      More importantly – what is your current job satisfaction? Are these other industries faster paced, more stressful, less good-for-the-world, etc?

      I’ve often debated switching over to working for the local university, where my friends have oodles of holidays, time off, and overall low stress. Some of them work 4 days of 10hrs each and do all their errands/life stuff on Wednesdays – meanwhile I’m usually working the same long hours but at 5 days a week. I think I would have been very happy if I’d switched to that life earlier in my career, but I’m at the point where a paycut would hurt a lot since I’ve become accustomed to a certain way of living.

      I’ve rarely been able to take all my vacation time in the private sector. So even though on paper I often combine good salary with 20+ days PTO, the reality is that I take half that off and always feel like its an imposition. Currently I have unlimited PTO and have used that almost exclusively for “recovery days” from working too much during regular hours.

      1. TechWorker*

        Not being able to take all your PTO isn’t true everywhere in the private sector fwiw… your options probably aren’t just ‘stay where you are’ and ‘go to a worse paid job’

        1. RussianInTexas*

          My old company insisted we took all PTOs (not sick time, but they never grumbled when you took sick time).
          They were generous too, most people had around 25 vacation days. Somewhere in the middle of the year managers would get the stern word from above that “your employees have not used much of vacation, make sure they do”.

    6. AnonyMouse*

      Since you asked for our opinions, I work in the nonprofit industry and would personally not trade my good PTO + flexibility + getting to work for a cause I care about, for a company where I’d get less time off, less flexibility to fit with my family needs, and work that I am not as passionate about.

      I would say that in addition to considering your family needs, it’s good to consider the tradeoffs with a long term view when thinking about this question. Will moving industries give you possibilities for exponential salary growth in 5 years? Or you have to do your time and in 3 years or so you might have the same PTO? Just some questions to consider!

    7. I take tea*

      Personally I absolutely value time off and a good culture much more than money, because no money is worth being burnt out and/or dreading every day at work. As long as I make enough to get by and save something, that is. What would I do with much more money and no time or energy to enjoy it?

    8. RMNPgirl*

      Thanks everyone for the responses, they definitely were leaning where I was which is to keep the generous PTO. I do make enough money to live comfortably, save, and travel. I had some large expenses this year (good ones) but it’s made me a little stressed about money even though I had plenty to cover the expenses and plenty left over.
      I am able to use most of my PTO each year. I actually have yet to participate in the buy down because I’m never close to the limit in which I would have to do the buy down. Our company also doesn’t allow you to buy down if you did not take 80 hours in the last 12 months, so they try to make people take at least 2 weeks off each year.

  26. Running with scissors*

    I need advice on dealing with a coworker.

    I work on a team of 4 and we are paired up to cover each other when we are off.

    In March I was selected for jury duty and needed to take an unpaid leave of absence. The trial concluded in mid June and I have been back to work since then.

    The team member I am paired with has been difficult to approach since I came back. I thanked them more than once for their help. However, anytime I ask them for something I either get silence or snippy response.

    Recently when two other team members were out of the office I suggested a way to manage coverage in our team chat. they once again chose not to respond. when I said something further to it they got very upset with me claiming I was the one delegating.

    My manager has said nothing about this and I am documenting this.

    any suggestions on what to do?

    1. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Sounds like you need to force a conversation? We can’t give you tips without you first having a conversation with one or the other. All we can do is guess that something happened in those 3 months, or they missed an important personal event because they had to cover for you 2X, for a long period.

    2. Roland*

      Were they covering for you with no help for those 3 months? That would be an epic management failure but I could see how that would lead to resentment, rightly or wrongly. And if they did cover for 3 months and are now feeling like you’re trying to split external coverage “fairly” going forward, I can see how that would rankle too. I know jury duty wasn’t a fun vacation you planned, but people be human. If they are mostly just being kind of cold I’d give it time, and probably don’t proactively ask them to cover for someone else unless it’s your job to find coverage. But if you’re having work issues because of this you really need to get your manager involved.

      1. Running with scissors*

        management didn’t get any help while I was on jury duty. That’s not my fault and it should not be taken out on me
        and the coverage was just for one day. I just made a suggestion and it got the other coworker upset.

        1. Roland*

          I didn’t say it was your fault, but I’m also not your coworker. Just because it’s not the “correct” reaction doesn’t mean it’s not a possibility.

        2. Starbuck*

          Probably she’s assuming after covering for you for three months, you’d be willing and eager to return the favor and do some coverage of your own. Of course the real fault here is with management but I’m not surprised she’d have feelings at you if you presumed she’d be the first to step up and do even more coverage now that you’re back. She probably wants more that just words/thank you. And if you were unpaid for three months – where did that money go if she was doing your work?? Again, not your fault but definitely another reason for her to be bitter.

      2. Observer*

        That would be an epic management failure but I could see how that would lead to resentment, rightly or wrongly. And if they did cover for 3 months and are now feeling like you’re trying to split external coverage “fairly” going forward, I can see how that would rankle too.

        It should rankle – but NOT at the OP. The OP was forced to take unpaid leave! There is no excuse for not getting coverage. And to go as far as refusing to communicate and being rude?

        No, that is not ok. It’s not something to expect and it’s not even something to “understand.” Coworker gets to feel how they feel, but they don’t get to take it out on someone who is not at fault.

        1. Running with scissors*

          thanks for the support. I will be discussing it with my manager at my next one on one. I am not at fault as I had a legal obligation to be in court. Management can’t or won’t get help it on them not me

        2. Roland*

          I feel like I’m being lectured on someone else’s behavior… Didn’t realize speculation was limited to Good Behavior tm. Where did say I was excusing the coworker or blaming OP?

          1. tessa*

            Nowhere, of course.

            There is a bit of “You’re wrong!” that shows up here from time to time.

            I wish it’d be addressed.

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      Could you ask your manager if something happened while you were gone to have caused the current problem?

    4. CheeryO*

      Have you brought up with your manager directly? I would wait for the next time you have something concrete to point to (i.e., you asked them for something and didn’t get what you need to do your job), and then bring it up. Snippy is annoying but not really actionable, imo.

      I wouldn’t get too worked up about them not liking your coverage idea. I’m sure that was salt in the wound after they covered for you for several months. If you think it’s a good idea, I would bring it to your manager and see if they agree and would be willing to implement it.

    5. Four of ten*

      I’d like to thank you for your jury duty. While it surely created some issues for your employer and coworkers, it would have been particularly difficult for you. And having to take unpaid leave. You’re a citizen hero for participating in society in this way.

      I’m sorry this has caused problems with work and hope you can work through this.

    6. Pisces*

      Scissors, please send us an update when and if you’re able.

      At PastJob, I had an issue covering a long-term absence because the management initially made it sound like my colleague was on vacation, or at most out for only a few weeks. When I raised the issue, they said they couldn’t do anything because of privacy reasons.

      I eventually knew the reason my colleague was out, because she told me. Still, it was difficult. It had been six months and counting when I left.

      1. linger*

        To be clear, PastJob was correct not to give any specifics about Coworker. Nevertheless, PastJob still should have been able to give an estimate of how long you would be expected to handle Coworker’s duties — something that does not invade Coworker’s privacy, but does directly affect your work.
        (If Coworker’s situation was such that PastJob could not give an accurate estimate, then PastJob should have been upfront that no accurate estimate was possible.)

  27. Summer Hot Chocolate*

    I posted last week about how I wanted to leave my job because “set up to fail syndrome” from my boss was making me miserable, and I wasn’t sure how to explain why I was leaving when I find a new job if she asked for an explanation.

    Now I have another issue. My grandboss wants to start having regular meetings with everyone on our “career development.” I plan on leaving this organization as soon as I’m able to (which admittedly might not be any time soon), so I don’t know what to say at these meetings. (I don’t even know what to expect because none of my previous jobs did any “career developement” stuff.) I’m in an entry level job, and the other jobs on my team don’t interest me at all, so I don’t know what I’d say even if I wanted to stay.

    Any advice?

    1. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I will say, the internet consistently and incorrectly falls back on incorrect tropes. One being that companies routinely set up people to fail. It’s actually really really rare. At best, it’s a “leave them to their own devices to see how they do.” If they really wanted you to fail, they wouldn’t have you there. So start by not being so paranoid! If you are entry level that means you have a lot to learn, so try to roll with the punches and learn!

      1. Summer Hot Chocolate*

        My boss started treating me completely differently a few months after I started. I’ve had a few other jobs, and did not have the same issues at any other. I’m not paranoid.

      2. Observer*

        This is not about what “companies routinely do” but about what the OP’s particular boss is doing.

        Without that context calling someone paranoid is a major overstep. And I would point out that what the OP describes is actually not so uncommon. Google “quiet firing” (which is a stupid term, but still being used) to see current articles about a phenomenon that has also been called “managing out”. (That’s not what managing out is supposed to mean, but it’s used that way in many cases.)

      3. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

        WTF? This is incredibly unhelpful and completely misses the point of the original comment.

    2. NaoNao*

      I’d go with tools and skills that are generally applicable. That’s development too! Not all development is climbing the corporate ladder. If you want to get a cert or learn a new fun tool in your field on the company’s dime/time that will help you in the future, that might be worth it to make your goal.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Career development is mostly about progressing within what you do, not changing to other jobs. You’ll eventually want to stop being “entry level,” so the development is how you can accomplish that — it could be hard skills like learning new software, or soft skills like getting better at public speaking — as they pertain to your job.

      I think the “set up to fail” is probably less intentional than you think, but yes, managers sometimes have conflicting or unreasonable expectations and may be in denial about their short comings in managing.

    4. MJ*

      Approach the career development as if you aren’t planning to leave as soon as you can. And it doesn’t have to be moving into another job on your current team. As an entry level employee your company probably isn’t expecting you to stay around forever.

      You know your company better than we can. If you think they would be unreasonable, you can just stick with basic upskilling that might fit with your role there.

      If the company is supportive, think about what your goals are long term. And is there anything you can do in the short term to advance them? Any courses you can take, online learning to explore, shadowing other jobs to see what they do? You can also lean into your grandboss and see if they have any suggestions on things you can focus on.

      In short, “career development” doesn’t have to mean “locking you into a job here for life.” It can be “we want to see you succeed, even if that means you eventually leaving this company.”

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        That last paragraph is exactly what I was going to say. It can also mean “finding a place for you within the organization on a completely different team that does stuff more in line with what interests you.” I know folks who started out as, say, assistants to the teapot salespeople. But they didn’t want to sell teapots–they wanted to paint them. So when a position opened up on the teapot painting team, they applied and got it.

    5. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Are there any professional certifications you’re interested in, but haven’t had the time or resources to do it yourself? I.e. if you worked in a project or program management role, maybe you’re interested in pursuing your PMP certification, etc. You could use the career development discussions to be more vague (i.e. not focused on specific roles at your current company,) but broader skills you’re interested in improving.

    6. BellyButton*

      Don’t think of your development in relation to just this job or the opportunities they offer. Think of what skills you want or need to develop.

    7. Somehow_I_Manage*

      “Grandboss, In my entry-level position, it’s hard for me to see beyond the day to day work, and understand what options will be available to me in the future. I’m thankful you’ve made time for me. Can you share your perspective on what opportunities will be here for me at this company if we make progress? I want to make sure we’re working in the same direction.”

      …see what they say!

      1. Star Struck*

        Yes. Doesn’t hurt to ask what the usual progression is from the role.
        To be honest, I’ve never been comfortable telling my boss that id prefer a role in another department or org. Do people actually say this to their boss / grandboss ??? I wouldnt know that they have any leverage to advocate for me there, the other department might be a nightmare from the inside and i dont want to hear “well this is what you asked for”, and / or I might lose the possibility of advancement where i am. Ymmv

  28. The OG Sleepless*

    Can I please pick this very smart group’s brain? You all seem to know so much about so many different fields. My 22 year old son is having an existential crisis. He graduated from high school in 2018 and initially thought he would do a skilled trade. He was interested in welding at first, and ended up spending a year as an apprentice pipefitter. This all sounded great, but it turned out to be full of dysfunctional construction crews and 70 hour weeks outdoors in our hot climate.

    So he enrolled in our local technical college, but he can’t quite find his niche. He has taken most of his core classes for his associate’s degree. He took a couple of computer networking classes (nope) and now he is working on Mechanical Engineering Technology. He’s liked the MET classes so far (manufacturing processes, materials etc) but his two biggest problems are 1. He really struggles with math, and the MET degree requires pre-calc and calculus. Like, I’m not sure he’s going to be able to do the math. 2. He can’t figure out what to do with his degree. His school lists a few local internships for various degree programs, but nothing has really grabbed him yet. Student advisors seem to be nonexistent.

    What he’s really good at is anything that involves working with small moving parts…things with ball bearings, springs, that kind of thing. It’s probably worth mentioning that he is both slightly neurodiverse and has inattentive type ADD. Any suggestions welcome!

    1. quailfail*

      It sounds like this man was born to be a small engine mechanic, based on your description. I say small engine mechanic over cars or other things because small engine mechanics have a much more laid-back work environment – it’s lawnmowers and motorcycles, not people’s livelihoods. There’s some degree of interacting with the public, but if you can happily chat about the shared interest (whatever they want you to work on) then you’re good to go.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      This might be too niche, but someone in my hometown fits this description almost exactly and he now owns a musical instrument repair shop.

      Is he interested in any other trades, such as becoming an electrician or HVAC technician?

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I was thinking of the watch repair niche! People own old/antique watches & need them kept running.

      2. RagingADHD*

        There’s a guy in my town who repairs /refurbishes brass and woodwinds out of his garage, and has built up connections with a lot of folks in the jazz scene. He’s making a killing.

        If you can find out which music shops in your town have the rental and service contracts for the middle school and high school band, they stay busy all year long maintaining the marching band instruments. IDK how lucrative it is starting out, or how often they need apprenticeships, but it’s a place to look.

    4. Lady_Lessa*

      If he is able to follow instructions clearly, then Quality Control in a company that makes parts might be good. Or testing labs that do mechanical type testing. For an idea of the type of testing, google KTA.

    5. CheeryO*

      What about water or wastewater treatment? Those fields are facing huge retirement waves and need all the young people they can get. Generally reasonable hours, municipal benefits, very stable work. Wastewater in particular is a very interesting mix of mechanics, chemistry, and biology. Certification does require basic math, but nothing beyond algebra. I’m sure your local treatment plant would love to give him a tour if it sounds even remotely interesting to him.

    6. Nesprin*

      Sounds like a machinist /tool&die maker/lathe operator, especially if he can handle CAD+ computerized lathes, there’s good money out there. Look around for local machining shops and see if they’d take on apprentices.

      1. My Useless 2 Cents*

        +1 the machining shops. Also metal shops/suppliers.

        Another avenue could be local fabrication factory type jobs. They don’t always pay the greatest but shops like that can have a lot of varied tasks if he likes working with his hands. The company I work with has shop personnel that regularly work with presses, routers, saws, occasional welding. There are more small manufacturing facilities out there than we are lead to believe.

      2. Hillary*

        +2 to this. I’d add manufacturers that work in metal + assembly. We have welders, CAD designers/operators, machine operators, mechanical assembly, electrical assembly, and QA. I think we might have some CNC now, but I’m not positive. Those are all skilled jobs that pay reasonably well, and we also pay folks in less-skilled jobs to upskill if they want to learn any of them.

        Did he like welding in general? There are lots of well paid opportunities that aren’t outside with ridiculous hours.

    7. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      These are all great suggestions. The other one that sprang to my mind is plumber. But if he were my son, I’d try to start him down the water/wastewater route as someone else first suggested. I work in local govt and those teams always seem very solid, with a nice mix of indoor/outdoor and solitary/team work, OT available if you want it but you don’t have to take it, good camaraderie.

    8. Angstrom*

      Random thoughts…machinist(manual or CNC), precision assembler, prototype technician, clock/watch/camera repair, test engineer, gunsmith, microfluidics, micromanipulators, medical devices, assistive devices, prosthetics, robotics.

      A job where he’d be involved in building mechanical prototypes for new devices — could be a variety of fields. Engineering R&D firm?

      Most universities have a machine shop to build lab equipment for professors, so he’d be working on lots of one-of-a-kind builds.

    9. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      In the absence of advisors, could he talk to his teachers and pick their brains about related fields and/or resources that might be available?

    10. HIPAA-Potamus*

      My husband went through these struggles but now he is pursuing a career as an electrician. He’s not great at math or science either, but if he can at least get a passing grade in the required schooling, he won’t need to be calculating formulas while on the job.

    11. Educator*

      It sounds like your son is doing an awesome job of trying different things to see what he likes. That should be celebrated. Two other thoughts:
      1) At institutions where student advising is weak, good instructors often step into more of a mentoring role. And for students who process things better by working on a shared project instead of talking over a desk, that can be a really good thing. Does he have any instructors he would feel comfortable engaging with about next steps? They know the different ways students can use what they teach better than anyone.
      2) In my career as an educator, I have seen many, many students who struggle with math in a traditional classroom setting thrive when they learn it in an experiential context. The numbers actually mean something and matter in the real world, and too many “traditional” math classes are just about memorizing patterns instead of engaging in higher-level thinking. I would not rule anything out based on his pre-existing math skills if it is possible to find classes that let him use math in real ways.

    12. acmx*

      He could work in aircraft parts repair. Lots of parts with bearings, springs etc and many need welders.

    13. The OG Sleepless*

      Wow, thank you all so much! He and I read the comments together and there are some great ideas here. Lots of stuff to pursue!

    14. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

      This may be way more out-of-the-box than you were thinking, but I’ve known a couple people in various hands-on trades who have gone and worked for half a year in Antarctica, and LOVED it. It’s a government job, and the application process is a real pain, but I feel like if he’s young and having trouble figuring out his next step, he may as well have an adventure (that also pays good money).

  29. Nonikoa*

    I (late 20s, POC, cis-female) appear to be getting a reputation for being ambitious at work. Several higher ups have mentioned this in meetings, not in a bad way but not really in a good way either – and always in the context of me asking to take on stretch assignments. I’m objectively good at what I do (I get great feedback from external and internal stakeholders, including these same higher ups) and I’m getting bored, so I thought asking for stretch assignments was a good thing. But something about the way the word ambitious is used is giving me pause. Is this something I need to watch out for? Should I modify my behaviour in some way or stop asking for stretch assignments?

    1. Princess Xena*

      I agree that what you’ve presented is reasonable – good feedback + monotony should be a good case for stretch assignments. I would not be thrilled by the term ambitious either, especially as a woman. To me that would smack a little too much of the “bossy/leadership” problem that can happen.

      Any chance you could ask one of your higher ups if there’s something you don’t know about those assignments? Maybe something along the lines of “X as described to me seems to be within my wheelhouse, but you have been saying that’s ambitious. Do you have concerns about my ability to complete X or are there some additional things I should know about X?”

      1. Nonikoa*

        I have asked those questions, and I’ve never gotten any response suggesting that they think I can’t do the work. It seems more along the lines of “well A, B, and C were hired six months before you and they’re not asking to do this”. More like there’s an unwritten rule I’m not getting. I don’t want to seem like

        I’m insecure about my position within the department, so I’m concerned about asking too many questions about the nebulous disapproval that seems to accompany words like “ambitious” when directed at young POC women. Or maybe I’m just being sensitive.

        1. WantonSeedStitch*

          Yeah, that smacks of “Nonikoa is getting ideas above her station!” to me. If you’re asking to do work that they have already said needs to be done, but making it sound like you don’t have the right to volunteer…ugh. I’ve had employees who were super eager to learn and grow, who wanted to do some work that was really above their current level of experience. I always had a REASON why I turned them down for those assignments: “this really needs to be done by someone who already knows how to do X and Y, because there isn’t time to train someone on those skills with the deadline we have.” But it sounds like they are telling you that it’s not that you CAN’T do the work, it’s just that they’ve decided you MAY not. And that means they are holding you back.

        2. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

          My generous interpretation of this usage of ambitious is that maybe they’re worried about burnout? If it were me, I would try and make the point that indulging my curiosity and keeping my brain excited by learning new things is actually a strategy I employ to prevent against burnout (because I know that I get restless when things are too routine/not challenging). Your motivations may be different (you may, in fact, be ambitious– that’s not bad!), but I think it’s worth trying to reframe it as what you get out of doing the tasks that isn’t just tied to them being an investment in future promotion or a chance to “show off”. Hopefully you’re enjoying something about the projects in themselves, and I think the more you can communicate your appreciation for that, the better.

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Not everything is a red flag! Only thing I can think of is it can be hard to consistently come up with stretch assignments for people.

      1. Nonikoa*

        I’m actually asking to take on specific assignments, not asking for stretch assignments in general. And I’ll get feedback like “yes, we know you’re ambitious”. Something about the phrasing or tone feels a bit disapproving, though not in a way I can clearly articulate.

        1. DisneyChannelThis*

          I feel like that is a bit of a microagression. Would a white male colleague asking to the projects be perceived as ambitious as well?

          I’d try laughing that off, “yes we know you’re ambitious” with “Yes, I can’t wait to be CEO someday, but in the meantime what about that TPS report” . I’d also keep track of who is saying it.

          If you don’t ask for the assignment, who gets it? How does the assignment get decided? Is this like your manager should assign it at their discretion?

          1. PollyQ*

            Would a white male colleague asking to the projects be perceived as ambitious as well?

            1000000% this. Nonikoa, sounds like you may need to find another employer that’s happy to have an “ambitious” employee.

        2. Warrior Princess Xena*

          Wow, yeah, that does not come over great. I can’t pin down exactly why but that really rubs me the wrong way. I would say that they are not interested in giving you these stretch assignments, for whatever inscrutable reason.

        3. FashionablyEvil*

          Recognizing that this kind of thing can be pretty fraught/a space to tread carefully, have you thought about saying something like, “Yes, I’m really excited about how I can best contribute to the organization! I like to volunteer for things like that because I enjoy challenging myself in areas A, B, and C and hope to do X longer-term. Do you have advice for me about how to succeed in that space?”

          Basically, call out what they’re saying, say why you’re doing it, and ask for their advice on how to be successful at your organization. I do think that they’re, at best, a bit oblivious to how what they’re saying comes across, but pivoting it back to the organization and appealing to their own ego can be disarming.

          1. Nonikoa*

            I’m going to try this next time, thanks! Maybe (nicely) calling them out in the spot will be more effective.

        4. CheeryO*

          I’m reaching here, but is there not any room for advancement in your position in the near/middle term? I could maaaybe see side-eyeing someone for being “too ambitious” if there wasn’t anywhere for them to go, since I’d assume they would be looking for the exit if I didn’t give them enough interesting work.

          1. Nonikoa*

            So because of our corporate structure they’d have to create a new position for me in order for me to advance. Which they’ve definitely done before for *many* people before, but is a little more work than just promoting me to the next level.

        5. Qwerty*

          How’s your relationship with your manager? Can you try having a big picture conversation with her? The higher ups may have have different perspective on these assignments than you – maybe the assignments are seen by the higher ups as a big stretch vs you see them as a little stretch. Or they are typically given to someone with a much higher title/more experience/etc. Or the frequency feels different to them vs you – say it only happens once a month, but those higher ups only discuss assignments with you monthly so they associate it as “every time we talk to Nonikoa” rather than “once a month”

          The higher ups might also think that you are asking for those assignments in order to get a promotion/raise or climb the corporate ladder faster, hence the “ambitious” comments. I think it has a lot to do with stereotypical white male behavior – when I work with dudes that frequently go after stretch projects, they are usually going after something they aren’t ready for and its tied a lot to their ego. You read to me as eager, but I think eagerness manifests differently across gender lines. (I’m in tech so eager dudes don’t go after projects, they just go refactor some code into something cool and kinda avoid the limelight).

          I got some of those same comments back in my energetic 20’s. Both jobs I had to get my manager to realize that I wasn’t targeting his job, I was just really excited by what we were doing and wanted to be more involved. Then I fell down the trap of doing all the unglamorous work that needed to be done and got stuck there for a while, so don’t follow my path that far.

          1. Nonikoa*

            I am afraid of falling into the trap of doing more of the unglamorous work because I’m eager and have the energy/time. I’m trying to be more strategic about what I volunteer for to avoid that, but perhaps it’s coming off as over reaching?

            That said, I *am* asking for stretch assignments to speed my rise up the corporate ladder. I’m interested in the work and I want to make a difference, and I can make a bigger difference from a higher position. I didn’t realise that was a bad thing – I don’t think I’m asking to take on things I’m not ready for (at least, I’ve never gotten that feedback) and I’ve gotten great feedback on every assignment I’ve completed. But maybe this is weird silence / ‘ambitious’ stuff is management’s way of giving me feedback?

            1. Observer*

              I didn’t realise that was a bad thing

              It’s not a bad thing.

              But maybe this is weird silence / ‘ambitious’ stuff is management’s way of giving me feedback?

              If it is, it’s a bad sign. Either they don’t communicate clearly or they are letting you know that “your kind” of person really should not reach “too high”. And if that’s what is going on, then you need to find a better place to work.

              1. Irish Teacher*

                Are you sure they mean anything bad by “ambitious”? You said it was said in neither a bad or a good way, so I would take it as a simple statement of fact, that you seem like somebody who wants to take on stretch assignments and possibly move up the career ladder. That’s not necessarily either better or worse than somebody who is happy where they are.

                I think you would only need to be worrying if they were saying it in a snide or begrudgery way. Calling you ambitious for wanting to take on extra assignments could be either positive or negative, depending on tone, and coming from higher-ups, I’d kind of feel positive is more likely, but you know your culture and colleagues best. Is there something about the way they are saying it that makes you think they mean it in a negative way or is it possible that you have had other people in your life in the past who see ambition as negative and you are assuming your current colleagues see it in the same way, when they may not?

                I hope this comment doesn’t read as argumentative or anything; I don’t mean it that way, but looking at it, I’m not sure I’ve phrased it in the best way and I’m not sure what to change. I am not saying you are wrong about how it was said; after all, you were there. But it is also possible to bring our own assumptions about a term to the table and misread people as a result. So I just wanted to put forward the possibility that they might have meant it as a compliment or as a neutral comment, to assess whether you would be interested in advancement.

          2. Nonikoa*

            My manager actually just left. I asked him this question when he was leaving as a final feedback sort of thing. He kind of hinted that I should be looking at other things if I wanted to get ahead quickly, but I’m not sure if that’s because he was unhappy with his role (they were underpaying him), because my company is slow, or because there’s something more insidious in the culture that I’m not aware of.

    3. Observer*

      But something about the way the word ambitious is used is giving me pause. Is this something I need to watch out for? Should I modify my behaviour in some way or stop asking for stretch assignments?

      If you are right that there is something disapproving or just skeptical about the use of the word ambitious, then you probably should start looking for another job.

      Is there anyone in the company you can talk to about this? Assuming that you are not asking in an unreasonable manner (like demanding, yelling, etc.) and that these stretch assignments are such that it’s not unreasonable to think you could actually do them, this sounds like a really problematic pattern. So, if there is someone you could talk to, I would want to ask something like “I’m getting turned down for a lot of interesting assignments and when I ask for an explanation so I can do better next time, I get rather puzzling responses. I’m also being told that I’m ambitious in a way that seems less than approving. How can I take on bigger projects that I should be capable of doing?”

      1. Nonikoa*

        I will ask this at my next 1:1. I am low-key looking, but I really like my job otherwise so I hope this isn’t an unfixable thing.

    4. Parenthesis Dude*

      In my experience that means that they want you to develop in your tasks more. Are you demonstrating that you can not only do your tasks but understand why you’re doing them and the thought process behind them?

      Alternatively, they could be jerks.

      1. Nonikoa*

        I think so? I’ve never gotten feedback to suggest I’m not doing that, and my work tends to be pretty thorough. But maybe management’s looking for something more that I’m not aware of. I would hope that my managers would tell me if it was something like this, because if I knew the problem was something concrete like this I could fix it.

    5. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Yeah. This is weird. Mostly because you seem to be alone. Talk to your manager about this and have a discussion. Tell them you are ready to contribute more- but have struggled to create opportunities. Ask: “How can we work together to make it happen?” /I’d see how that discussion goes before advising next steps.

      1. Nonikoa*

        Thanks, I’m going to try that. Most of my other coworkers don’t seem to want to do more – they’re all a bit older than me with small children and seem pretty happy with the way things are. But we’ve had quite a bit of turnover lately, and I know some people left for more money at other places. Perhaps gatekeeping was part of it too?

    6. Moths*

      As someone who manages an employee who asks for a lot of stretch assignments, I will say that it can be a little exhausting at times. Even though this employee comes up with the assignments on their own, it still ends up resulting in more work for me, even if it’s just tracking their progress on that assignment or talking with other teams to facilitate their new role on that assignment or meeting with them about what new stretch assignment they’d like now. And they’re a phenomenal employee — one of the hardest workers, gets stuff done super fast, and always quality work. Because of that, I try to accommodate as many of these stretch assignments as possible. I want them to feel like they’re always growing and aren’t dissatisfied with their role. The employee also expresses desire for career growth in titles and pay (not in an inappropriate way, just commensurate with the work they do) and I try to ensure I’m matching that with the work that they’re doing, but as a result, I also end up having to spend capital to push for bigger raises and faster promotions than is normal at our company. In 3.5 years, the employee has already had two big promotions, whereas the norm at our company is to receive single promotions every 4-5 years or so. All in all, I end up spending more time and effort and capital on keeping this employee engaged than I do on probably all of my others combined. Selfishly, I’ll admit that there are times I wish this employee would just do their current job for a while and be satisfied with it. I know that isn’t who they are though and who they are is a great employee, so I’ll keep putting in the extra effort to keep them engaged.

      Nonikoa, I’m not saying this is the same as your situation and I think the other commentors have some great thoughts on the potential for this being a microagression or otherwise inappropriate in your situation. I did just want to highlight the other side of things — from the perspective of someone who manages an employee who is truly ambitious (in the best sense of the word, not a negative one). I would think about the norms at your company and if your wanting frequent stretch assignments is outside of those norms. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing, just that it may not be the right company for rapid development and growth.

      1. Nonikoa*

        Thank you, this was a really helpful perspective that I hadn’t considered. It sounds like I need to do some thinking about the culture at this company and whether it’s time to look for other opportunities.

        1. linger*

          One thing that Moths’ comments about the possible impact on supervisor workload suggests is: the interpretation of “ambitious” may depend considerably on just how far a stretch for you the assignments you’re requesting are. How you’re seen by your management could be very sensitively determined by how much time you’re needing from others for these tasks. E.g.:
          100% within your capabilities without outside help = not really a stretch for you => the “ambitious” label would suggest management is underestimating your capabilities.
          ~95% within your capabilities, requiring occasional check-ins to keep on track = a slight stretch => “ambitious” seems a fair (positive) comment.
          ~90% within your capabilities, requiring occasional assistance with the actual task as well as with its assessment to complete to the standard required => “ambitious” could be an entirely accurate (and neutral) label.
          “ambitious” could encode the negative sense of trying too hard, too soon.

          1. linger*

            The last line started with a less-than symbol, thus creating an inadvertent comment tag sequence, so it got eaten. It should read:
            less than 75% within your capabilities, requiring considerable assistance with multiple steps of the task => “ambitious” could encode the negative sense of trying too hard, too soon.

  30. Analytics wannabe*

    Advice for reaching out to someone I’m hoping would be willing to be an informal mentor? She graduated from my masters program 5 years before me and quickly rose through the ranks at my company in the kind of roles I wanted to be doing. However, I was sidelined by illness and having kids after graduating, and now it’s 3 years later and while I’ve been doing an adequate job in a related but non-technical role, I haven’t been the star employee I see someone wanting to mentor. I’m planning to start by asking if she’s willing to meet and talk about her career, but I also need a brief script to explain what I’ve been doing between graduation and the present.

    Also, if anyone has advice on getting my career back on track, I’d appreciate that too! My interest areas haven’t changed, I just worry my skills may be too stale to jump back in directly, when I never used them on the job.

    1. Qwerty*

      Mentorship tends to happen naturally (unless forced through a mentorship program). So I’d start by adjusting your expectations to just having this one meeting. Do you actually know this woman from your masters program? Or is that the connection you are using as an intro? If the latter, then less is more when sending your opening message – you don’t need to explain your whole background, just the connection that you both having of going Llama State University before joining Teapots Inc. and that you’d love to hear about her experiences if she’d be interested in meeting for coffee / going for a walk / etc.

      I’ve been a high profile woman at a tech company, which has led me to the conclusion that there’s overlap between finding a mentor and finding a date. Sometimes those both can spring from acquitanceships, friendships, and working relationships, but are awkward if someone springs it on you outside of a clear “searching for mentor/date” environments like mentorship groups or dating apps. I’m always happy to talk to people in my field/company, but it puts me in an awkward position when they want me to be their mentor right off the bat – we’re at work, so I have to be delicate and might not feel that I can actually decline.

      I’m bringing up that point not to scare you off, but to help reframe this for you. There’s a lot of advice out there that tells people, especially women, to go ask people to be their mentor and how much you need to acquire one. The reality is that a chat with this woman could be useful on its own! Maybe you two will click and keep talking with either a friendship or mentorship coming out of it. More likely she’ll tell you about which skills turned out to be the most useful ones to keep fresh and maybe that XYZ group was useful early in her career.

      1. Analytics wannabe*

        Thanks, that really helps. I haven’t actually met her. One of my professors told me about her while I was in school and said I should reach out at some point, but I never did. I do feel like I need a mentor, especially since I don’t work with anyone but my boss, but maybe I just need to focus on finding a role that’s a better fit.

  31. Andjazzy*

    I’m in kind of a weird place. I worked at a company for 5 years, and left at the end after an extreme workload increase due to covid and being threatened with a pip.

    The next place wound up being horrible. 2 or 3 people a week quit. In a department of 70 they had over 100% turnover over the course of a year. I lasted 9 months, it was wild.

    In my current position I’m underpaid but it’s relaxed and I enjoy it. I was not planning on leaving until a merger was announced. There was a meeting in which I found out they already have someone doing my role, and he’s been around a lot longer. I was told “consolidation” will be up to the board of directors.

    I got a job offer for a 30% raise, fully remote and double the PTO and have decided to take it. I’ve done as much vetting as I can, a number of people I have worked with in the past work at this company and have told me the pros and cons.

    How do I explain the job hopping on my resume in the future? Did I resign too soon, I really like my current job and the people I work with but the meeting about possibly being laid off really freaked me out.

    1. JelloStapler*

      I don’t consider 5 years a short stay. ( months maybe, but this last one- this was an offer that you could not turn down, especially with some uncertainty due to a merger in your current position. Anyone would understand that.

    3. Super Duper Anon*

      I would describe it mostly honestly. The first company, leaving after 5 years is fine, so just say you were ready for a change or something bland like that. The second job, you can say the company was unstable and had extreme turnover. In the last job, you can talk about the merger and that there was a possibility you would be laid off due to consolidation, so you found a new opportunity. But, also, stay at your current position as long as you can manage and hopefully if you are there long enough the previous small hops won’t be a big deal.

    4. Decidedly Me*

      If you stay at the next job for awhile, it will likely be a non-issue. Whether you resigned too soon at this job really kind of depends on what would have ended up happening. However, I assume you don’t have a crystal ball, so you made the best decision you could with the information you had. Plus – 30% raise? Double PTO? Seems like it was a good call either way.

    5. calvin blick*

      Assuming you stay at your new job for a few years I don’t think it will be an issue. If they ask you about it I’d just say new job #1 wasn’t a good fit and new job #2 had a merger and you wanted to avoid layoffs and got a nice raise at a new position. But I’d imagine hiring managers in 2026 will kind of view 2020-2022 as a super weird time with covid, the great resignation, and inflation causing a strange job market with a lot of churn.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      I think it unlikely that anyone would even give this a second glance, and if they do, “merger” is understood as a legitimate reason to leave.

  32. tiny_strawberries*

    I GOT MY FIRST EVER RAISE!! I actually asked for kind of a lot – about 12% of my salary – becuase I considered the new responsbilities of my promotion to be a big step. I honestly did not think they would approve it, but they did! Now I have to get over my immediate imposter syndrome of “why am i making this much” but oh well!!

  33. IWon'tPay*

    Just need some input to tell me I’m not ridiculous – my husband has been working as a bus driver with the local university for the past 4 years and really enjoys his job – always going above and beyond, covering shifts, volunteering to do bus maintenance tasks. He’s run the entire system when his boss was out sick with COVID for a couple weeks. There’s issues about him taking on all this additional work without any sort of title change/raise/what have you, but none of them have been really bad until now. They’re ordering some very nice new buses, and the company building the buses wants some people to come to their plant in person to ensure that the order is correct and will fulfill their needs – great, good business practice. Here’s the hitch – my husband’s boss wants him to come, but says that his boss won’t approve/pay for the low-level employees to come. I’ve told my husband he absolutely should not go if they aren’t paying for airfare and the hotel, especially not for a job that pays $13.50/hr and refuses to hire anyone full time because they can’t afford to pay for benefits. He’s really disappointed that he might not get to see how they build the buses, and feels that he’d be letting his boss down. Do you think there’s any way I can get through his head how much they’re taking advantage of him?

    1. JelloStapler*

      Is he an employee of the University itself or through a different company that the University contracts with?

      I understand his sense of loyalty, but if his bosses are not helping him make it happen by covering airfare, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

      1. IWon'tPay*

        He is an employee of the university’s parking and transportation department, which gets a small amount of money from student fees and then is expected to generate the rest of their money on their own – mostly through parking tickets, but they’re also allowed to pay the university grant writers to write grant applications, but that’s hit or miss.

        And yes, they are shooting themselves in the foot – they’ve had to reduce their bus routes by fully half of what they had at the beginning of 2020 because their buses are falling apart and they can’t get enough drivers because they pay a pittance. Surprise surprise, but you can’t run an effective bus service off of parking ticket revenue.

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I am from a higher COL area but that’s what bus drivers were making here in 2006/2007! Yeah, this definitely seems above his paygrade, though that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t go (IF they can expense it)

    3. Hlao-roo*

      It’s so standard that companies pay the cost of company travel! If the company can’t/won’t pay, then he should not go. Disappointing for him, yes, but if the company really wants or needs him there, they will find the money in the budget for airfare and hotel.

    4. PollyQ*

      Any chance you live in California? If so, the employer is legally required to pay any business expenses. But no, it’s ridiculous for his boss to expect him to travel on his own dime, just to look at a bus being built.

      And let’s be real, this is nothing more than a PR move. If they don’t value your husband enough to pay him a decent way, give him benefits, or pay his way to the factory, they’re not going to be interested in anything he has to say.

      1. Angstrom*

        That’s a good point. If he goes, will his comments and ideas be taken seriously? Will the people making decisions about the new buses listen to him and be willing to make changes based on his recommendations?

        Involving the people who actually use the equipment in the purchase of new equipment is usually a good idea. Not paying for his trip is an indication that his opinion really isn’t that valuable to his bosses.

    5. BellyButton*

      This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. You can’t ask an employee to go on a work trip and have them pay for their own airfare and hotel! That is insane. He should talk to his boss and clarify that this is really the case. Let them know he really wants to attend and be part of the process but there is no way he can or would cover the cost of this trip.

      1. TechWorker*

        It sounds like his boss would want him to go, but grandboss has said no. In which case boss either needs to suck it up and stop pressuring him to go, or push harder with his own boss. This is not a problem your husband can solve or should attempt to solve!

        He should treat it like it’s obvious he won’t come if the company isn’t expecting him to be there. If he has a good relationship with his boss he could seed that idea (yea it’s a shame I can’t make it but I guess grand boss just couldn’t be persuaded!’)

    6. I'm Done*

      Your husband should absolutely not go unless he’s paid to go. That means not only the associated expenses but his hourly wages. If he works, and this is 100% work related, he needs to be paid. As far as being disloyal, they want something from him not the other way around and if they were loyal to him they would pay him. Employees should never care about their jobs more than their employers.

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      If I were your husband, I would tell his boss, “Gee, I really would LOVE to come. But if Grandboss won’t budget for that, then I get the feeling they don’t think that it’s a priority for me to be there. If you think it is, can you convince him to approve and pay for me to attend? If so, I would jump at the opportunity. If not, I’d be happy to provide feedback on any info you or others bring back from the trip, and will try to come up with some suggestions for questions you can ask and things you can look for while you’re there, if that might be helpful.”

    8. RagingADHD*

      You Do Not Pay To Do Your Job.

      For crying out loud. If he wants to pay someone else so he can work at a loss, I will be happy to send him my Venmo. He can pay me and call me his employer. I’ll even put him straight into our employee appreciation program. “Employee of the Month” certificates start at $50, but I offer a bulk discount of 5 months for $200.

      How many should I put him down for?

    9. Hillary*

      So if he drives a full length bus he has a CDL. I looked up home-every-night (city) jobs for one of the trucking companies I work with and chose a random low cost of living location (Enid, OK). Their starting pay is $23.93/hr. If he doesn’t have his double/triple, tanker, and hazmat endorsements they pay driver apprentices $22.61/hr in another low cost area while they get their CDLs at company expense. In my higher cost state CDL jobs start at $25 and go up from there. If he doesn’t have a CDL any of the LTL companies I work with would hire him anyway and pay him to get his CDL, he’s already demonstrated he can drive safely and interact with people.

      Great people don’t make up for poor pay. The university is demonstrating how little loyalty it has to your husband, he doesn’t owe them any more loyalty than he’s given.

      1. Hillary*

        If he wants to learn more about companies to look at, drop a comment here with your general area and I can make a list of companies that I know treat their drivers well.

    10. Loredena*

      Do the math. The cost of going there on his own dime is the equivalent of almost a months pay assuming total out of pocket of 2000(likely). And would they be paying him for his full time on site? If not that’s an additional cost to him and to you for something he won’t receive any credit for

    11. Somehow_I_Manage*

      No. Nobody works for free.

      Unfortunately, this seems like an example of layers of low level managers playing gatekeeper. Your husband sounds friendly with his boss, but…you guys should take a moment to think about whether there are examples of his boss being his champion and clearing obstacles for him, rather than throwing them up. It’s really easy to say “sorry Bob, the higher ups said no.” But remember, it’s the bosses job to be his advocate when it’s the right thing for the team.

    12. it happens*

      If they won’t pay for a low-level employee to go, and your husband’s opinion is so important, then his boss should promote him. Just sayin’

      And, no way no how he does a self-pay business trip. That’s nuts.

    13. Observer*

      He’s really disappointed that he might not get to see how they build the buses, and feels that he’d be letting his boss down.

      He’s not letting the boss down, he’s PROTECTING them. Because this is a business trip, which means he needs to be paid or they can get into to major legal trouble.

      If anyone is letting anyone down it’s either his boss who is not pushing for this trip to be approved or his boss, who won’t approve having someone who actually drives the buses to go.

  34. Okapifeels*

    I’m 34 weeks pregnant and I just finished my last piece on my work to-do list yesterday in terms of preparing work for my absence. I trained my employee on the tasks she’ll have to do in my absence (whether she’ll do them is a whole other ball of wax I have no control over, sadly), I’ve made contingency plans for all of my projects to be completed, I’ve even got my out-of-office pre-written.

    So, my question: any last minute details I should make sure to take care of?

      1. Okapifeels*

        I did! It’s way too long, but my direct report has some Issues with being unable to follow basic instructions and then claiming she was never trained properly, so it’s both a procedures manual as well as an ass-covering.

    2. Chapeau*

      Have you checked your work space for things that aren’t a big deal if you leave them at work because you’ll be there again tomorrow/Monday, but could be a big deal if you’re not at work for several weeks?
      I’m thinking log-in info for the health insurance; the direct extension for the helpful person in HR; the brand new, full hand moisturizer that you have on your desk that you might want while you’re at home; the book of short stories you read at lunch sometimes, etc.

      1. Green Goose*

        Good call out. I’ll be on maternity leave shortly and I’m taking all my personal belongings home because my office has hinted at doing some rearranging and I don’t really want people going through my stuff.

      2. JustaTech*

        I’ve heard rumors that my work completely cuts off our computer access when someone’s out on maternity leave, which makes sense except that then you can’t access the long-term leave company’s info to do things like submit your “cleared for return to work” paperwork, so maybe check on that kind of thing and get all those numbers/emails?

    3. Green Goose*

      I’m so jealous. I’m about a week behind you, congrats fellow October mom! My work has made it so difficult for me to do a leave plan, I’ve been trying to get answers to what can be paused, what type of coverage I’ll have, who my reports will report to SINCE MAY and these things were not confirmed until last week. Now I’m being told to scramble a plan together and I really, really hate doing things last minute.
      I also came up with suggestions during the past few months of what can be paused, who could take the work over, I even researched outside consulting support and everything has been shot down but then I’m still being told I need to figure out the leave plan.

    4. Anon for This*

      Lock down or take home anything you want to still be there when you get back from your maternity leave. You’d be surprised at what will walk off when you are gone for an extended period. And copy any files you really care about and file them in a different place. Someone will pull them out because they need them during your absence and when you return either you won’t get them back or stuff will be missing.

    5. Fikly*

      Is whatever needed in place just in case something happens and you go into labor tomorrow? Happened to my grandboss 12 hours before the scheduled meeting to discuss how everything was going to be handled when she went on parental leave. She was at 34 weeks exactly (happily she and baby ended up being fine).

      Babies do not respect schedules, even before they are born.

  35. Mountain101*

    Im curious whether anyone can weigh in on whether they’ve experienced this kind of policy and how they worked with it.

    I recently learned that our IT data privacy/destruction policy extends to Slack, such that (a) slack profiles of former employees are fully anonymized, to just say “Deactivated User” and (b) DM history with deactivated users is fully removed/inaccessible (though their messages still appear, anonymized, in channels). This happens within a couple of months of employment end.

    Can anyone weigh in on whether you’ve seen this before and how you worked with it effectively? I’m accustomed to searching Slack for shared files, links, conversations, discussions/decisions, etc and a little freaked out that I won’t be able to do that predictably anymore. Do you save/screenshot/bookmark Slack info throughout the day? Or just, not use it for important stuff?

    Also, can IT folks weigh in on whether this seems like a normal policy? I’ve never heard of anything like it before. (Why Slack DMs and not email???)

    I’m frustrated with how this was rolled out (without any warning or notification) and recognize that it may be coloring how I see the topic as a whole so trying to take a deep breath and a step back.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      That’s pretty normal yeah. Frankly I’d recommend not using Slack for this purpose and store important documents and notes somewhere else. It’s not really intended to be a database and this is one of the ways that manifests.

      1. Mountain101*

        That’s helpful to hear, thank you. It’s never been the case in the past for me (~10 years working in tech) so it’s definitely a mental adjustment.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Our slack license isn’t the high tier one so after 6months everything goes away. I tend to screenshot or c/p the useful stuff into OneNote or powerpoint decks.

    3. Qwerty*

      This sounds pretty normal for Slack. Don’t rely on instant messaging apps in general for permanance as the pricing plans are different than email. To answer the question on Slack DMs and not email, is that it is stored differently on the backend. When Fergus and Jane are emailing each other, they each have a copy in their allocated space. If Fergus deletes an email chain it disappears from his inbox but Jane retains her copy. Slack is different – if Fergus deletes an IM that he sent, its just gone.

      Slack specifically has different pricing tiers – they might stay for a certain amount of time, or the company is only allowed to keep the last X messages sent overall, etc. People send A LOT more IMs than emails. Plus with email, they can allocate a certain number of memory per person and its own that person to decide how to manage it – Gmail normally shows something at the bottom of the page like “5GB of 15GB used” to let you know how much space is available. If your company has been growing or has become more active on Slack, it’s possible this isn’t a new policy but just that you are running into the limits faster than before, or they weren’t deactivating slack accounts right away because they needed something / weren’t at the user limit.

      When people leave my current company, they disappear from Slack that day. It’s actually how we know when people leave or are terminated since they don’t announce it – I just go to message someone one day and they are gone.

    4. Observer*

      Also, can IT folks weigh in on whether this seems like a normal policy? I’ve never heard of anything like it before. (Why Slack DMs and not email???)

      Unless I’m misunderstanding, this seems like a very normal policy.

      What do you mean that this policy is for Slack but not email? I would hope that when an employee leaves their email gets turned off!

      1. anonymous IT drone*

        Slack probably has worse privacy settings than email, most social media does. You can’t control slack accounts the way you can control email accounts. Most corporate email systems can shut down accounts and keep the content for a while in case something is needed or if emails are legally required to be kept for a certain amount of time for some industries.

  36. Out & About*

    Ugh, I had a complaint made against me by a coworker claiming I edited answers to an internal anonymous survey that was suppose to be used for a team activity that never happened.

    Super easy to prove innocence. I just gave access to the tool for corp HR to confirm answers were the same as the excel extract the director received. No one but the director saw the answers, not even me. How could an accusation even be made without seeing the produced document personally?

    Anyways I was clued in that the survey had a really inappropriate response. Wondering if my coworker didn’t fully understand the concept of anonymous and actually took credit for it accidently with the accusation.

    Corp hr is finishing up their investigation. I feel I can’t work with this person without fearing they’ll report me for every small suspicion they may have. Anyone else dealt with this before?

    1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      Hopefully this problem solves itself when the person who accused you is demonstrated by the evidence to be lying. No future accusations from them would be credible after that.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      If I understand correctly, your coworker put in an inappropriate response, realized that it could be traced to them, and then lied that you had changed some answers (to implicate you for that inappropriate response)?

      It doesn’t sound like they’re overly suspicious but that they are willing to throw others under the bus and that is always a problem. However, you already proved once that they can’t easily catch you out so they might move on to someone else. If you have a good HR, they should give a warning to the coworker not to do stuff like this again. But if you do have to work with them, try to keep it civil and professional.

    3. RagingADHD*

      It would seem that your coworker is either erratic, unpredictable, and willing to throw blame anywhere they can think of, or else they are malicious and scheming but not very competent at it.

      Either way, keep an eye on them and make sure you always have receipts. If the comment they input was inappropriate enough, you may not have to deal with them for long anyway.

    4. tessa*

      I left a job 6 months ago mostly over a co-worker who was just absolutely vile, and a boss who buried her head in the sand rather than deal with co-worker.

      Co-worker made all kinds of general accusations about a hostile workplace (apparently not knowing that the term is based on specific legal definitions), and tried to get people run out of town. I was slated to become her direct supervisor. Hell effing NOPE.

      I suggest you try to find out if the investigation will be on your employment record, no matter the outcome.

      Also, if it’s possible and feasible for you, look elsewhere. Don’t suffer her if you don’t have to. If you do have to, be polite and professional and stay away from as much as possible in the meantime.

      Good luck. Your co-worker sucks.

    5. River Otter*

      I had a coworker report me for a conversation that never happened. The thing I regret not thinking about and asking for was oversight of this employee to prevent him from spreading the story to other people (which he did, and it harmed my reputation and negatively impacted people’s willingness to work with me) and also for greater investigation on anything he might say about me in the future (I wasn’t informed of the complaint for weeks or months, and they believed him implicitly). I recommend that you think about what along those lines makes sense for your situation and ask for that. Then hold them to it. I did think to ask that all future complaints be brought to my attention immediately, but that request wasn’t really respected.

  37. Decidedly Me*

    If you stay at the next job for awhile, it will likely be a non-issue. Whether you resigned too soon at this job really kind of depends on what would have ended up happening. However, I assume you don’t have a crystal ball, so you made the best decision you could with the information you had. Plus – 30% raise? Double PTO? Seems like it was a good call either way.

  38. KayDeeAye*

    The organization I work for has a respectable though not generous vacation policy. I have four weeks of vacation, but that’s only because I’ve worked here a long time, and those who haven’t been here that long have to skimp by for a few years on just two weeks’ vacation.

    As a fairly uncomplicated way of addressing this skimpiness (which people have complained about for years), the organization recently announced that we’re going to be officially closed the week between Christmas and New Year, effectively adding four vacation days to everybody’s tally. In addition to giving us those days off, it also frees up the days that we might have used then for something else. I realize not everyone likes to take time off then, but I do, and most of my coworkers do, too, so we’re all pretty pleased. Apparently they are even going to try to come up with some plan to even things up for those people who for work-related reasons can’t take time off then.

    How common is this? I’ve never worked any place that did this, though I know other people who have. For example, I used to work at a trade-specific newspaper (farming), and while the specific publication that I worked for didn’t close then, just about every other farm paper or magazine in the region did. I was always soooooo jealous!

    1. londonedit*

      It’s common in book publishing in the UK, which is where I am. Historically the printing presses would shut down for the Christmas break, so publishers closed too. In my experience the companies that give the minimum 20 days’ holiday (plus bank holidays; sick time totally different) would generally close between Christmas and New Year and not require people to take the time off, so you’d get three days ‘extra’ (Boxing Day or the nearest weekday to it is also a bank holiday here), but the companies that offered more than 20 days would be more likely to close, but require people to take the time out of their holiday allowance. Where I work now, it’s brilliant because we get 25 days’ holiday but we also close between Christmas and New Year and we don’t have to use our holiday allowance, so we effectively get 28 days’ holiday (though obviously can’t choose when to take those three days).

      1. KayDeeAye*

        That’s interesting, londonedit. I’m actually slightly thrilled that my vacation allotment (holidays and sick days are both calculated separately) is even close to that of somebody in the UK. It’s too bad it’s not the same for all my coworkers, though. But it seems to me that acknowledging that most people here don’t want to work between Christmas and New Years but deserve to be paid for it is a good sign.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Somewhat common in manufacturing. Some places shut down for a week or two during the year in order to improve/update/change machinery on the production line. So standard production workers have the time off (and this sometimes spills over into office support staff, sometimes does not), and the people who are working on updating the line will be working that week.

      1. djc*

        Yep, I’ve had family members work on the assembly line for Honda. They used to be closed the week between Christmas and New Years and I think also the week of 4th of July.

        2. JustaTech*

          Seconding. I work in medical manufacturing, and that’s our slowest week of the year (shockingly, people don’t want to get long medical treatments in the middle of the holidays!), and many (but not all) years I’ve worked here we all got that week off (and the facilities folks who did the overhauls during that time got to take the time off at a different time).

    4. Can't think of a funny name*

      My company did that last year and are doing it again this year…but they’ve said it’s something they will determine on a year-to-year basis so don’t assume we’ll always get it.

    5. Educator*

      The nonprofit where I used to work did this. Everyone appreciated the days off, but many found it frustrating that that they were tied to holidays that not everyone celebrates. It would have been much better to make them floating holiday days so that people could use them for the holidays that were personally or culturally important to them.

      Tying them to the Western Christian calendar was particularly unhelpful at our org because we operated all over the world, so it was much harder for us to keep projects moving during, say, Lunar New Year than it was at the end of December. I never understood it.

      1. KayDeeAye*

        Yep, that’s the problem, of course – they are not really “vacation days,” they are extra holidays, which means they are tied to particular and specific days on the calendar. So it’s great for me because I love taking vacation then, but not so good for those who don’t. We’re pretty homogenous, culture- and religion-wise, here, but management is considering ways to make us more diverse, and so they’ll probably want to rethink this if those efforts bear fruit. But in the meantime, I must confess, I’m going to enjoy the heck out of my new extra days off. If they become floating holidays or something like that, I’ll still enjoy the heck out of them. :-)

        1. Educator*

          It is awesome that your management is setting diversity goals! And enjoy the PTO–a little more work-life balance is such a wonderful thing. I always spent those days with a cup of hot chocolate and delightfully boisterous family members.

    6. M&M Mom*

      Had this at my old company and I loved it. We worked some state/federal holidays, and those days were then used to make up the days needed to cover the days. I’m really going to miss this at my new job.

    7. OtterB*

      My organization does this. We’re a nonprofit in the higher-ed space, and since most of our members and volunteers are not working between Christmas and New Year’s, we’ve always closed with no requirement to take PTO. It’s very nice.

    8. Friday friday*

      My American CEO did this to my Canadian company (so, for us, it’s only 3 days of holidays, because Christmas is two stat holidays). We have no people who *must* work in that time, we can fully shut down. I assume the CEO did this because he was a religious nut, but no one complained of having 3 extra days holiday. Enjoy!

  39. Mbarr*

    Should I notify a colleague’s manager that their direct report starting to annoy me again? Or am I overreacting because of my dislike of them?

    The Village Idiot (VI) on our team is absolutely lost without step by step guides for EVERY SINGLE TASK. They literally ask things like, “Can I put a graphic in this field?” and it takes all my willpower not to ask, “Well have you tried putting a graphic in the field?!”

    Every other member of our team is willing to experiment, try things out on their own, and figure it out, etc. If others get confused, they’ll reach out to me with educated guesses or showing they’ve done the background research. But not the VI. He wants his hand held for all tasks.

    I had to shut them down very firmly a few months ago, where I literally told them, “Stop asking me for help. You need to ask our colleagues first, or go to this and that resource.” I also notified my manager (based on her reaction, I could tell this was an ongoing problem) and his manager (who had my back), and he stopped pestering me.

    I support a team of 20ish people in using specialized software. I’ve documented best practices and how-tos for all basic tasks. But now VI is asking about random fields that aren’t covered in the wiki, because we don’t use them. I somewhat jokingly told them, “If I documented every field we don’t use, the wiki would be 100 pages long and then you really wouldn’t be able to find the instructions.”

    Needless to say, I have a bad taste in my mouth from all interactions with VI. Despite that, I’m very pleasant when I do talk to them. (Even though seeing their name appear in my chat sends me into an instant rage.) But I don’t know when/if I should mention to their manager that the questions are starting up again. (As in, I don’t know if I’m overreacting to them asking a couple of stupid questions, or if this is the start of the pattern re-emerging.)

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I think you’re overreacting a little bit, but I do understand why. I’m sure this is like nails on a chalkboard to you at this point. I would keep redirecting, asking about something not in the wiki isn’t blatantly ignoring your previous instructions. It does seem like he tried to look it up first. But right now I’d focus more on trying to work on your own reactions to this guy, that’s not going to be a healthy dynamic in the future even if (maybe especially if) you’re bottling it up and being nice to him.

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      I would take a deep breath, step back, and see if the same pattern forms again first before going back to the managers. I totally sympathize with you, I would feel the same way, but if you run back to the managers too early it won’t help if these couple of questions are it and then he stops. If he starts pestering you all the time like he did before, then you have a clear case to bring up that it is happening again.

    3. Blink*

      Are the questions by email/ chat? If so, reply to each one with the same thing you already told them – ‘as I mentioned before, you need to check with x or y for support, or look in this or that document. If you’ve already done this, tell me the things you’ve already tried to resolve this issue’ – if they don’t die down, forward them to your manager and ask them to pick it up with his manager. Be blandly professional – you don’t have the time to support people in this capacity.

      If this is by phone/ stopping by your desk, and your work culture supports it, try ‘I don’t have time, can you email me your question so I don’t forget it’

      Stop calling him the Village Idiot, even in your head. Your contempt for him will become noticeable, or you’ll wind up smacking him down over something reasonable, and you’ll look like an ass.

    5. TechWorker*

      Agree that stopping calling them the village idiot is a good idea, even if it’s just to yourself.

      I would also (if you know your boss would support it) just be a bit less available. You don’t have to respond instantly and *sometimes* (not always… but sometimes) making someone’s life a bit harder means they have to go looking for the answer themselves and work it out. Or they start bothering every person in shouting distance – but at least then it’s not just your problem…

    6. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Tricky one, given you don’t have any direct control over their performance. End of the day, they’re not performing well, and that’s a management issue. Keep it professional, but try to quantify it and report it to their manager. Hopefully they get the memo and either put them on an improvement plan, or rehome them somewhere they’re more comfortable.

      On a separate note, I’ve seen this issue before, and while I know for a fact people can improve at becoming a problem solver rather than a robot- I’ve found this is a very hard, sometimes impossible transition to guide someone through.

    7. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

      Hmm. My reply is biased by my experiences working in places that were disorganized and didn’t have good documentation/checklists.
      It sounds like yes, the other people on the team are getting by with a mix of trial-&-error and asking other people for help, but that doesn’t actually sound to me like there is an efficient, supportive system in place for people to quickly find the answers they need. The wiki doesn’t have important information (fields that should be left blank/ignored) because it would make finding other useful information more difficult? That to me also sounds like, ok, so why isn’t the wiki better organized so that finding information is easier? I dunno, it’s possible that this is one of those situations where this person genuinely isn’t trying to do their job (which would be maddening), but to me it sounds like they are trying and something is making it harder for them. Could be a learning difference or disability, could be they’re scared of breaking something or getting yelled at if they do it wrong. But either way, unless your system genuinely is perfect, wouldn’t it be better to think of this person as a stress test that shows where it needs improvement as opposed to a willful obstacle?

    8. allathian*

      Sounds like you’re at BEC level with this person. His behavior is understandably annoying you, but if his manager and upper management won’t manage him, there’s not much you can do about it. Good luck!

  40. Laney Boggs*

    Give me your mandatory work fun stories!

    We are having a mandatory team building picnic (2 hrs, outside, and on my busiest day of the week no less) and I am dreading it! We passed around the potluck list, so at least I know if the fried chicken is inedible there will be fruit/veggie trays and chips. I also bought a microwave freezer meal to be on the safest of safe sides. (when it comes to potluck/picnic/cookout/gen.Americana I am… so picky)

    1. Librarian of SHIELD*

      My workplace is currently in its annual six-week charity fundraising drive, complete with pay-to-play “fun” activities. I am not enjoying it.

    2. Kowalski! Options!*

      My team leader, who was appointed to the role not long after she came back from maternity leave last fall, decided that our team wasn’t communicating enough and that it would be good for us to have mandatory fun coffee time every Tuesday morning. At first everyone kind of bought into it, but it turned into forty-five minutes of her bitching about her kids and her internet connections. Nnow the conversation lags after about 5 minutes and I’m wondering what would happen if I played the “I would prefer not to” card.

    4. Cookies For Breakfast*

      I used to work at a place that made its all-hands meetings into huge all-day productions they expected people to be in constant awe of, and then attached forced fun activities at the end of them.

      There were the open-bar, no-food-in-sight fancy dress parties that pretty much only catered to big drinkers, and/or people willing to spend big money on elaborate costumes each time. There were the outdoor activities in support of this or that charity, involving physical activity not everyone was up for. The treasure hunt that was meant to take people to a party venue on the other side of town, which would have taken ages even with public transport. All with a professional photographer in tow, so pictures could be posted on all social media, showing everyone we truly had the Best Employer Ever and Lots Of Fun At Work Every Day.

      Opting out was basically getting up from your seat at the end of the work meeting, saying your goodbyes and heading swiftly to the exit (“sorry, double-booked, behind with work, blah blah, yes, yes, next time”). Depending on who managed you, even asking in advance whether opting out was possible could be frowned upon, so a convincing excuse in the moment was key. And you didn’t get to do it without the peer pressure of listening to everyone big up the event in the previous days, and look at you like a wounded puppy when you finally announced you were about to go.

      Honestly, though? A lot of the time, sitting on my sofa staring into the void or even working felt more appealing to me, and I know I wasn’t the only one.

    5. Jellyfish*

      After getting chastised for refusing to drive six hours for the corporate office’s Christmas party, I very grudgingly spent a weekend day going to a shooting range with my coworkers.
      I didn’t mind the choice of activity, but the whole thing was such a waste of time.

      My current employer doesn’t believe in fun, and most of the time, I prefer it that way. Let me have my own fun with my own people on my own time!

      1. HoundMom*

        A few years ago, my office leader thought it would be great to a visual treasure hunt in NYC on a 100 degree day that required several miles of walking. Once you found all the items and noted the location with a picture, you had the joy of meeting back at a bar where you were gifted with one free drink and no free food. The kicker was that the senior people had to kick in money to pay for it. If you did not go, you were docked a vacation day.

        The team included people with heart conditions and other physical limitations. We had a number of people who became dehydrated.

        Good times.

    6. tessa*

      I am so sorry. I know exactly how you feel.

      May I offer that it could be worse. I recently attended a training session for managers and a manager in another department proudly boasted that she leads her team in daily cheers. “Who’s the best?? We are!! We are!!” kind of thing. DAILY. In professional roles.

      But I hear you. Forced bonding is just so…..just….NO!

  41. Blomma*

    We have a new coworker starting on Monday. Her primary role as she learns more about our industry will be to assist me (yay!) in my role. She won’t report to me but I found out yesterday that I will be responsible for most of her training, which was a surprise as I expected our team lead to handle that. Her first week will primarily focus on our corporate onboarding stuff, but after that I need a plan of action. Any tips for creating that plan? I’ve never been responsible for training someone like this or had a (kind of) assistant so I also welcome any advice about making this a positive experience for myself and my new coworker. Thanks!

    1. Hlao-roo*

      The first thing is that she (and you) will probably spend a fair amount of time hunting down logins to accounts, links/bookmarks to important websites, making sure she has the right software installed on her computer. All typical new hire admin stuff.

      Identify some tasks you think she will be able to understand relatively quickly. When you are explaining a task to her, explain both the broader context of the task and the how-to details of the task. Encourage her to take notes and to ask questions. Also check in with her at various points along the way to make sure she is following the steps correctly and not stuck at any point of the process.

    2. Blink*

      It’s suport dependent on what you actually do, so this might all be useless but:
      try and have a 4-6 week plan mapped out by the time she’s handed over to you. The first two weeks should be pretty detailed, as in each day should have the tasks/ processes/ whatever that you want to show her listed. Try and split it into AM & PM, even if PM is just ‘revise what you learned this morning’.

      The idea is that you can present her when she starts with a document (I used to use a spreadsheet) with everything that she should know in six weeks. Not the granular detail (if you don’t have process docs, now’s the time to start), but something that functions like a training framework.

      At the end of the week you can sit down with her and go over the plan – were you able to show her everything for that week? Does something need to be rolled over to another week? You can check for understanding as well, so if something isn’t making sense you can spend more time on it.

    3. Educator*

      A few ideas:
      1) Ask her about her learning style and what would be most helpful to her. Does she learn by observing you, by listing to instructions, by reading an SOP, by taking some time to explore new software independently, etc.? Try to make the process work for her.
      2) Connect her with other people. Help her set up 15 to 30-minute meetings with your closest collaborators so that they can tell her how their job interacts with hers and what they need from the person in her role. Think about both directions on the org chart, i.e. the manager of another team who often receives your work and does something with it, as well as the mailroom clerk who can show her how to send packages out correctly.
      3) Few people can learn all day, every day, and you need time to do your own work. Identify a couple of projects that don’t require much training for her to take over early on. Maybe something more clerical? Then she can do training for part of the day, and work on those projects the rest of the day. If she is particularly excited about an area of your work and one of these early projects can tap into that enthusiasm, even better.
      4) Keep a written record of the topics you cover in training, and share it with whomever she reports to so that they can suggest other areas and see how much work you are putting into this!

    4. MacGillicuddy*

      If any tasks are ones that she does on the computer, have her “drive” while you tell her what to select, click, fill in, etc. She might have to take notes on this, so allow time for that.
      Having someone you’re training watch while you sit at the computer and do the task is only marginally helpful (unless you demonstrate once and then have the trainee do it while you instruct.)
      When tasks like this are new to someone, they don’t even know what part of the screen to look at for each action, because it’s all new. And because it’s all so familiar to the trainer, the trainer typically moves along fairly quickly without realizing they’re going too fast.

  42. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

    My completely remote team is meeting in person for the first time ever next week! I’m excited to meet my boss and coworkers face-to-face, and get to know the wider team as well. There’s a lot of fun activities planned, we’re going to be meeting in a city that I’ve never been to and have wanted to go to for a while, and it’s my personal first experience with business trips.

    A couple of issues:
    – It’s going to be mid-90s F (mid-30s C) there the entire time we’ll be there. I do not do well with heat. Unfortunately, one day we’re doing a morning outdoor food tour (where shorts would probably be necessary for me), followed by meetings (where shorts would probably be fine, but I’d feel a little weird wearing them), followed by a casual indoor team-building event (shorts definitely fine), followed by a VERY nice dinner (shorts definitely not fine), followed by an optional swimming thing that I’d like to go to (which obviously involves swim clothes). I’m a guy, and trying to pick out the various casual/business casual outfits I need to pack, and I’m having trouble trying to fit an outfit to this day. My guess is a nice button-down short-sleeved t-shirt and nice shorts for most of the day, and then change into pants for the dinner, and then have my swim trunks for swimming. Do I need a jacket for the dinner if it’s going to be ninety degrees (and so probably won’t be wearing it anyway)? Other thoughts?
    – My skip-level has brought up (at the last minute) that we’re doing a non-work-related “Open Mic” and I have no idea what to do. I get 5-7 minutes to do, basically, whatever (as long as it’s somewhat work-appropriate). It’s a way to kind of get to know the whole team, and I would like to participate (even though it’s optional) but anything I’m thinking of would take me a bit to prepare (singing a song or presenting something I’m interested in) or are not work-appropriate (I already have some stuff from powerpoint parties I’ve done with my friends but the subjects are Definitely Not Work Appropriate). Any ideas?

    1. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      Your outfit options sound great, I wouldn’t worry about a jacket, and don’t be afraid to bring along a hand fan or anything you need to stay cool.

      For the presentation- I’d stick to a simple format like talking through the top 5 things you’ve learned at work or something, 3 people you admire (fictional characters are great for this), advice you’d give yourself 10 years ago, things you can sort of bullet point and work through.

    2. KayDeeAye*

      Your wardrobe plan for the complicated day sounds pretty good to me. My advice is: Unless it cools off a lot at night where you are (as it often does in the desert, for example), no jacket for the dinner. I’d also strongly suggest that you have a fresh shirt to change into for dinner, even if it’s no more formal than the shirt you wore during the day. At least for me, a shirt that I’d worn all day in the heat won’t feel particularly “fresh” by the time dinner rolls around.

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      Google Nerd Nite / Ted talk style stuff. 5 min of information about a random topic you are passionate about basically, just keep it PG. I sat through one on the journey your luggage takes from check in to the plan once, turned out fascinating!

    4. Lifelong student*

      Don’t forget that to the extent you will be indoors for parts of these that there will probably be air conditioning- which can often be way too cold. Also- for the swimming, you may want a casual shirt that you can wear with your suit when not in the water. Maybe at least one pair of lightweight slacks?

    5. beach read*

      Maybe confirm w/your Mgr as to the dress code, make sure shorts are ok for the business meetings. Bring a couple of extra shirts, something nice for the dinner. For your 5-7 minutes, could you play some sort of game? Something like 2 truths and a lie? “2 truths and a lie-Pygmy Possum version” You could ask members of the team to guess, kind of like audience participation. Have a nice anecdote ready for one of the truths or the lie, some nice, funny story you could share about yourself that would be work appropriate. Have fun!

    6. tessa*

      Just chiming in to say your clothing choices sound great.

      As for the open mic, maybe a simple story about something that happened to you on a particular day. For inspiration, I recommend “Metropolitan Diary,” an every-Monday feature in The New York Times.

      Good luck, and I hope you have a wonderful time!

  43. NaoNao*

    I need help.

    I was involuntary term’d from a job last Thursday after being put on a final warning Monday (I didn’t commit any infractions in those days between Monday and Thursday).

    The warning listed many things I “needed to do” going forward and of course 3 days is not anywhere near enough time to determine pass or fail. I suspect the final warning was just pro-forma so they could fire me for cause.

    Long story, but it’s about 50-60% justified in my mind. No ethical or moral stuff, just new-employee mistakes that I couldn’t recover from and wound up spiraling pretty quickly. I had repeatedly flagged I was drowning and even asked to be demoted to a junior role we had open, and was told no. I should have quit, but was strongly advised not to since it’s much harder to find a job without a job and UI would be 100% impossible if I quit.

    I’m on the job market and seriously wish I had resigned when I got the final warning on Monday, but that’s water under the bridge and I can’t change that. Now I’m unemployed and interviews are coming at a steady rate, so that’s looking good, but…

    I’m very, very reluctant to lie to future employers, but saying I was fired for cause pretty much means it will be next to impossible to get a new job. I’ve already been dancing around the truth to a degree that makes me feel icky, but I’m in a real bind. I need a job and while I could leave this job off the resume, that would leave an 8 month gap I’d have to lie about and cover for (that would likely be found out during background checks anyway). I’m up front about no longer being with the company but almost every interviewer immediately asks “what happened/why are you leaving/why did you leave?”

    What should I do here? I feel any way I “spin” this is going to be pretty transparent to any savvy interviewer and I can’t imagine many companies are eager to hire someone even with a spotless record that got let go from their previous job (I’ve never been fired up to this point). The job market is tough and I’m not in a position to freelance or go without work for long.

    Any suggestions–maybe something I’ve overlooked or am not seeing clearly?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      “It wasn’t a good fit”. That’s all. Though I would recommend leaving it off your resume – 8 months isn’t such a dramatic gap that it would be a red flag.

      1. NaoNao*

        Hm. So how do I get around the “so…X company was your most recent job?” questions in the interview? I’d have to bald-faced lie! What about applications–many companies require you to fill out applications and check a box stating under penalty of law that the information is both correct and complete. What’s the move there?

        When you say “it wasn’t a good fit” are you saying I should say I was term’d or just say “wasn’t a good fit” and hope the company just confirms dates/title and go from there?

        1. ThatGirl*

          I mean, don’t LIE — that’s not recommended. but if asked directly, you can say that you had a short-term job at company X that didn’t work out.

          (and for the record, I was fired from a job 15 years ago … this week in fact … and I did manage to find a new job! what I was told is that you can frame it however you need to, as long as you’re not lying — it sounds like it truly was a bad fit, that the training was poor and the workload overwhelming and you decided to part ways.)

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Being fired doesn’t mean that it will be impossible to get a new job. People are fired every day and find new roles. Are you applying to jobs that are very similar (and likely to have the same issues) or very different? If similar, talk about what you learned and how it won’t be an issue again (and why it won’t be one again). If different, you can talk about how you learned X wasn’t a good fit, which is why you’re applying for Y, which is a good fit because Z.

      Good luck!

    3. Johanna Cabal*

      It wouldn’t hurt to contact your old employer’s HR to find out what they will say. You might even be able to get to agree to classify it as a “layoff.” There are plenty of companies that will agree to this because they’re afraid of getting sued.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      First, breathe — people get fired all the time and land on their feet. Second, it is perfectly okay to say “the job ended up needing someone with more high-level experience to handle the work load” or similar — it’s acknowledging that you and the job weren’t a good fit (on either side).

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        You can start with Eldritch Office Worker’s “not a good fit” and then use my suggestion as further explanation if needed. Sometimes jobs and people just aren’t right for each other.

        1. Johanna Cabal*

          You can also frame it as you and the company agreed that the role needed someone with more experience in X and that you both agreed to part ways. Practice saying this in a mirror and with someone else until you come across as not bitter and even accepting of what happened.

      2. NaoNao*

        That’s a solid way to frame it, thanks. It’s very true. I’m a tad shaky on using that as I’m applying for very similar roles and that might raise eyebrows like “well…if you couldn’t handle it at Job A, how are you going to handle it at Job B” but I guess I can cross that bridge when I come to it and flesh out the specifics, which I already am to a point–saying that there was one person for the entire US, which was the case.

        I’m not in…panic mode, but an experience with a final “wrap up” with a soft offer put the fear of god into me when the interviewer pushed a bit on “what happened” as when I started the process I was employed and I was transparent with the final group that I was now unemployed, which of course raised questions! I had to tap dance like mad and it just felt really slimy and icky to me.

        1. HBJ*

          That sounds like a pretty reasonable thing for a hiring manager to ask if you’re applying for similar roles. It sounds like perhaps you should be applying for more junior roles.

        2. WellRed*

          Please stop thinking you’ve been fired “ for cause.” As others have said, it comes down to, it wasn’t a good fit. You didn’t get caught stealing.

        3. tessa*

          One thing: assume you will have to cross the bridge you mention and have an answer worked out. You don’t want to wait until an interview for that.

          Good luck! It will be alright; you’ll see.

    5. Hillary*

      When explaining that I got fired, I usually say it was complicated but gave me the push I needed. I had three managers in five years – the first two were awesome, and the last one wanted to bring in his own people. I’ve had more than one senior person respond that very few people have made it this long (I’ve been working professionally for 20+ years) without getting fired.

      Own it. Reflect on why it didn’t work, and be ready to talk about why you’re going to succeed at the new job. If you were great at A and B but not good at C, focus on jobs that need A and B. Be humble in interviews that C wasn’t your strength and you’re pivoting away from it.

      My biggest recommendation is to practice talking about it. Right now it’s very close and rightly feels very personal, and it’s probably hard to talk about it dispassionately. Write out a script down, say it out loud to yourself, and practice with a friend or family member.

      It’s going to be ok. You didn’t destroy your career. You’ll find something much better.

      We’re all rooting for you. *internet hugs*

    6. RagingADHD*

      There’s a wonderful line in the movie Get Shorty: “You’re trying to say you f’ed up without sounding stupid, and that’s hard to do.”

      Hard, but it’s not impossible. I think you’re better off getting ahead of it and controlling the narrative than trying to evade. I have only been fired once, and the overall dynamic sounds similar. I only had to address it in the first job hunt afterward, and I said something like:

      “My bosses and I agreed that I was in over my head with that role. I made some rookie mistakes, and I couldn’t seem to recover from them quickly enough. I tried to talk to my manager several times about the fact that I was overwhelmed, and I even asked to move into a more junior role that would be a better fit, but they decided to let me go instead. I understand the decision, but I wish it had gone a different way earlier on when there was time to course-correct.”

      Then pivot to: “Now I’m looking for a role that’s a better fit, and where I can have those constructive conversations with management so we are all on the same page, making sure the work gets done correctly, and I can grow in the role.”

      1. Rosyglasses*

        I think your paragraph is excellent, and as a hiring manager, I would appreciate the candor and self-reflection this exudes.

    7. Somehow_I_Manage*

      First, off- it happens. I’m sorry it happened to you. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out. You’ll both be better off.

      Here’s your script:

      “Unfortunately, it wasn’t a great match. The company’s needs turned out to be different from what I was expected and some of the work was outside of my skillset. We tried to work together, but unfortunately, we weren’t able to make it work, so we parted ways.”

      It’s a perfect segue into how this position aligns better with your capabilities, and I’d expect it could generate some really good discussion about what you’re looking for in your next position to be successful.

    8. Observer*

      almost every interviewer immediately asks “what happened/why are you leaving/why did you leave?”

      “Bad fit”

  44. Anastatia Beaverhousen*

    My new boss has been working for four months, I can’t tell if they are the problem or if I am just being too prickly about my personal preferences. Some of my other co-workers are singing this bosses phrases but here are somethings that I find bothersome:

    1. Bad/no communication. They will send information to the wrong people and then wonder why it isn’t done (e.g. send an email to Bob when it was meant for Jane). This causes confusion for Bob and results in Bob having to scramble to complete the task.
    2. Poor organization. They seem to struggle to keep track of the cases that are being assigned. (e.g. will assign a case several times when it is already open OR when asked questions about the case will make statements “it seems like the client needs a case manager” when the person asking questions IS the case manager that they assigned to the case.
    3. Second guesses me ALL the time. They ask for staff to “look to do task A” more often with clients and when all the leg work is done to do Task A changes their mind and says “maybe we should go with Task B” instead. This causes more work.
    4. Asking for double documentation of tasks for their ease of finding the information.

    I can’t tell if I’m being overly sensitive or if I should be as frustrated as I am by this? All of these things happen several times a day/week and cause a lot of mental stress trying to plan ahead to avoid these monkey wrenches being thrown into the day. What do you think?

    1. digitalnative-ish*

      I think you’re right to be frustrated. What you’ve described is frustrating.

      Don’t really have advice, only sympathy. Old Boss was like this (with a heaping scoop insecurity so calling them out was… difficult). I had to accept that catching monkey wrenches was my work life and develop ways to make it bearable (still trying to unlearn some).

      Based on advice here and being done ™, I did start documenting what was asked and changes via email (saved me at least once – they were also vindictive). At least then my ass was covered. We also would send information/assignments to the correct people when they confused things.

      Sorry you’re dealing with this boss. Hope it gets better.

  45. Annie Mouse*

    I’m currently out of work and looking for another job so I’m working with a lot of outside recruiters with agencies. I had been working with one recruiter for a job. He said he was going to submit me for a job, but I didn’t see an email. Every recruiter I have worked with has sent an email that includes a code for the job along with the salary and other details for the job and ask me to confirm the email. I never got that email, but this recruiter seemed somewhat disorganized.

    Recently I saw another job that sounded similar (not exact) and I applied for the second job through a different recruiter. I spoke with the second recruiter who said he was going to submit me for this job.

    The second recruiter called this morning and was very belligerent and claimed I was already submitted for this job. He claimed I wasn’t truthful, and he couldn’t work with me. Honestly, I’m okay with that because I don’t want to work with a recruiter that is belligerent and hostile. The client is a very large company and without a job code how are candidates supposed to know a job that sounded similar was indeed the same job? The two jobs had different titles and when I spoke with the recruiters the pay range was different.

    Has anyone else had a similar experience with agencies?

    1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      There are soooo many unhinged recruiter stories just on this blog. I bet most people you know have at least one. You can rest assured that whatever the issue was, it wasn’t anything you did.

      1. Annie Mouse*

        Thank you.

        The more I reflected on this there were more than a few red flags, such as the recruiter was more than 10 minutes late to the interview and focusing on a job gap from 5 years ago.

  46. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    I finally booked some time off work after getting pretty close to burn out (other people’s description of me, although I have noticed symptoms like chest tightness with anxiety, hand tremors, memory going to hell, constantly on edge, productivity nosediving); and I have a whole week both this month and next month off – hurrah!

    I am not very good at taking time off to chill, I tend to be very activity based, so I’m trying to set myself up to take a week to genuinely relax and reset. My ideas so far:
    – limit myself to three things on the to do list per day
    – daily yoga or pilates videos for 10 minutes in mornings
    – guided meditations
    – read physical books so my attention span gets a workout
    – do craft projects

    Any other tips or ideas? I don’t want to feel like I’ve wasted time but also don’t want to keep putting my nervous system under strain. Will devote a day to deep cleaning my flat which should feel good – afterwards!

    1. Blink*

      If you don’t work a M-F 9-6 this may be less exciting, but I love taking myself out for lunch or a midday movie when everyone else is at work. If there’s a nice place that’s always rammed for weekend brunch, it’ll almost certainly be quiet on, say, a Wednesday. And because it’s quieter, you can linger over a book and a pot of tea.

      I hope you enjoy your week!

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        This! Late breakfast is nice, too.

        What makes you happy & relaxed? I love sitting in a park & reading, but I know that’s not for everyone.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I used to take a few days off just to go to the movies. It’s so nice to go to a midday movie during the week!

    2. Chill. No Pill*

      Can you rent/watch a whole day of inane movies (like Godzilla, et. al.) with popcorn & a blanket? Like enforced chill.

    3. Melanie Cavill*

      Can you book something that you’ve wanted for the last little while but not had a chance to do? A pedicure or a massage, for example! Followed up by a mid-day excursion to Starbucks for a $40 latte.

    4. Gracely*

      Do you enjoy cooking? If so, maybe spend some time making something you’ve always wanted to make but never had time to.
      Binge watch some TV/movies you’ve always wanted to sit down and watch.
      Go to the zoo or an aquarium if you’ve got one nearby. Or just take a walk in a park–get somewhere that you encounter nature in some way.
      Meet friends for lunch or dinner.

    5. PollyQ*

      I have noticed symptoms like chest tightness with anxiety, hand tremors, memory going to hell

      Please try to find time to see a doctor. These could be simply due to stress & burnout, but there might be something else medical going on.

    6. LimeRoos*

      Seconding many of these replies. But also some of the things I’ve done when I had time off in the middle of the week.

      – sushi date w/ myself & a good book – can be any restaurant or cafe
      – shopping date w/ myself – I like walking around malls lol
      – walk to close places I’d normally drive
      – movie marathons – LOTR, Jurassic Park, etc pick theme food/drinks too if you’re feeling it.
      – tv show binges
      – test out recommended shows or movies
      – fully support a 1 day deep clean each week, especially if it’s the first weekend, so you can fully enjoy a clean flat for your staycation
      – crafts, art, music – create or listen
      – cooking projects – i like to make things I wouldn’t normally have time/effort to do, like a cherry clafoutis (i know they’re kinda easy, but i never melt the butter enough), or a roast, or smoking a brisket, baking cakes or cookies, simmering pasta sauce all day, stews & soups
      – museums and parks – there was a super cool rock museum (lapidary art, not rock n roll) in my hometown that was a great place to kill 2-3 hours
      – if any of your friends/family are free, can always meet up with them or impromptu lunch date or something.
      – hang up art – sometimes i like to rearrange the paintings/pictures in our house to freshen it up
      – see what the local towns are doing – if there’s any fall festivals or things like that to check out. during the weekdays they’d be less busy too.
      – oh and video games if you like those!
      – visit friends/family – my dad had a flower shop, so if i was off sometimes i’d randomly stop in and surprise him (he was a big fan of it lol, he just retired this Feb).

    7. Yay, I’m a Llama Again!*

      If you’re able to, go out and walk. Particularly with an audiobook or podcast. Fresh air, activity, and no demands in your time. You can say to yourself you’re going to walk for a whole podcast/two podcast etc.

    8. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

      If it’s nice, how about planning some outdoor recreation? Explore you local parks, go to a zoo. You could also explore local museums/attractions, go to a sporting event (even if it’s local high school or college). Go to a farmer’s market, go to a petting zoo, whatever! I think part of this is go and do what you want, but not pushing yourself. If you’re “done,” go home, even if you haven’t been there that long.
      I think you should focus more on what type of things recharge/rejuvenate you, rather than are traditionally “chill.”

      1. Angstrom*

        Yup. There’s a lot of evidence that being outdoors and moving under your own power is good for your brain. Go somewhere you’ll enjoy walking or cycling.

    9. TechWorker*

      It’s not *super* relaxing.. but if there’s things you’ve been putting off due to work stress (making that doctors appt, phoning your insurer..), set aside some time to sort those out too. Sometimes those things can weigh on your mind more than you realise, and it feels good to have them done!

    10. I take tea*

      Take long walks, preferably in nature, if possible. It is calming. I actually would try it without podcast, just try to focus very intensely on your surroundings and on taking deep breaths. A bit of mindfulness that focus less on your body. I get nervous doing body scanning myself, but I like trying grounding techniques outdoors. I hope your time off will be restorative.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, other mindfullness stuff makes me anxious, but I love standing in a wood surrounded by trees. I’ll do it at any time of year, except in really extreme weather like a thunderstorm or blizzard.

    11. Somehow_I_Manage*

      “I have noticed symptoms like chest tightness with anxiety, hand tremors, memory going to hell, constantly on edge, productivity nosediving”

      Are you certain this is all work-induced? I mean this with love and support, would you consider seeing a doctor? I’d be really worried if I had chest tightness and hand tremors for any reason…I don’t know you, but I’d feel better if you used a day for a check up. I really hope you feel better soon!

      1. RagingADHD*

        If it’s all stress induced, I wouldn’t call that “close to” burn out. That’s full burnout, close to break down.

        1. Rosyglasses*

          Seconding this. Also – when I was at this stage, I took 30 days off work… and it was still not nearly enough. I feel like it was week 3 before I started to feel a normal sense of daily calm. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to do that (thankfully I was able to negotiate it paid) but just to put into context of how long it can actually take to feel the results.

          Two weeks is a great start tho – and starting to build more boundaries into the work day as you can will also go a long way in keeping that sense of peace.

    12. BBB the Cabinet Builder*

      I understand the need to relax, but sometimes hiking in the woods or walking on the beach is more relaxing than sitting on a sofa. I also second the idea of going to the zoo!

    1. ThatGirl*

      Offer to be a reference, if applicable. Help them network – if you know of folks at other companies who might be hiring, for instance, offer to pass their resumes along or make introductions. Write a recommendation on LinkedIn.

    3. Irish Teacher*

      Keep in touch with those you were friendly with. It would be sort of awful to lose a job and a lot of friends/contacts in one go. Just continuing to be a friend is often greatly underrated when people are having hard times.

  48. Elle*

    I’m an admin in higher ed and have just started supervising a few student employees. They’re supposed to be general office assistants, but I find I don’t have much work for them. They can’t take over anything from me, because they don’t have the training or access to the systems; so I’m spending an inordinate amount of time making up tasks that amount to busy work, and then even more time explaining things and reviewing their work. Part of this is just what it’s like to work with students, but I’m really running low on things for them to do. We’ve reorganized all the files and it’s only September :|

    Any advice?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can they answer phones? Sort incoming mail? Take outgoing mail to the mail depot? Create information documents about the department? Update the website? Inventory? Document meetings? Filing? Staff the desk for visitors?

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t know if this will fly in your particular office, but can you say “I don’t have anything for you to do, so you can sit at your desk and study quietly until the end of your shift and I will let you know if something comes up that I need you to work on” (even if you only use this occasionally it’ll give you a few hours to focus on your job and free them up from some busywork)?

      1. Elle*

        I so wish! That’s the way a lot of my student jobs were. Unfortunately that’s looked down upon here.

    3. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

      Can they help out your coworkers? If your office has a social media account, can they help with that? Does your office have a general email account they could help answer? Can they digitize old paper records?
      I think just a little bit more about what your office does would be helpful to come up with answers.

      1. Elle*

        All of these responses are making me realize how slow my job is! I’m a small part of a larger department where a lot of administration is handled centrally, so there are other student workers designated to answering phones or emails. I take care of that for my section, but it happens so infrequently that we haven’t yet gotten a phone call this semester lol. I mostly do finance and design, things my students don’t have the access or skills to do. They’re helping with social media and have done some file management, but there’s very little on my plate to hand over to them.

        It might be helpful to know that we did not advertise for student workers. They emailed us looking for a job and my boss hired them because it would “make us look good.” Now it’s on me to actually employ them :|

        1. DisneyChannelThis*

          Are there any projects you’d do if you had infinite time? Maybe you can start a few new projects just for student workers.

          Updated faculty profiles (picture, publications, blurb, contact info, office number) for our directory were a big one no one ever bothers with because time. Word of mouth, oh yeah mr rogers is in building A room 214 ignore the online listing of building C room 10.

          Inventory status of furniture in the department was another one. Ad hoc replace broken things but no idea the overall condition. Logging how many projectors, how many printers etc and making a database.

        2. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

          Well then your boss can figure out a solution. Have you told your boss that you’re running out of stuff for them to do? Ask your boss for ideas. If your boss doesn’t have ideas, then I would let your boss know that you’re going to give the students permission to work on homework until projects come along. If your boss doesn’t want the students sitting around, then they need to figure out their work.

        3. Dragonfly7*

          Does your university’s library have a subscription to LinkedIn Learning or something similar? Perhaps you could assign some learning paths to the student employees to develop some finance or design skills so they will be prepared to assist on a project later this semester.

    5. Fun-d-raiser*

      I used to work in development in higher ed, and we were given students that were primarily useful in mailing season, aka, when we sent out plea letters. It wasn’t unheard of for us to let kids study if they were caught up on their work, or sometimes we loaned them out to other offices that needed help, but on our dime.
      But do any have skills* that you could use or majors that would find what you do interesting? One of my former student workers now runs his own development department (at a smaller school, but he’s going to move up and on). His interest led me to work to get him access to our system so he could see what we did and then actually help me with my own duties. All of it was more work for me at the beginning, but eventually I had a hierarchy of longer-term students supervising and training newer students and our office, despite needing multiple kids for only a few weeks a year, was a coveted on-campus job.
      *I realize that skills is maybe too strong a description, but does your office need videos that your tik-tok enthusiast can help produce, written instructions for some duties or training manuals that the education major or the English major can draft or edit, etc.

      1. Elle*

        Thanks for the suggestions! I’m trying to find a way to incorporate some of this. I think I’m running into the problem that a large part of my duties involves finance and systems that contain sensitive information (so no student access or assistance), and the other part of my duties is mainly graphic design, which they don’t have experience in and I don’t have the time to teach them. Writing out instructions could be a good idea!

        1. Not A Racoon Keeper*

          On the graphic design piece, is there a way you could loop them on some of the basics? I did a couple “how to InDesign” online courses, and then was set loose on improving some forms for a registrar’s office once (there were many backups, so I couldn’t mess anything up too badly!), and learned quickly. We also had students do layout in InDesign for donor stewardship projects, using our standard templates. All depends what type of design you’re doing, but maybe there are tasks that could be easy enough to teach (or self-teach with resources)?

        2. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

          There was another thread on AAM recently with resources for learning useful excel tricks– anyone remember it? I feel like assigning them to learning excel pretty well would both be useful for them and plausible enough as related to your office’s remit that you could get away with it.

    6. Marketing Unicorn Ninja*

      Can they do an audit of your website/printed materials/collateral, etc.? I love using student workers as a fresh set of eyes on things I’ve looked at a million times.

    7. Somehow_I_Manage*

      I had such a job my senior year of college. I qualified for work-study, so it was part of the university’s “benefit” to me. I really appreciated my boss. She’d tell me “sometimes there’s not much for you, relax, do your homework, and cash your paycheck buddy! Thanks for being here!” And I really appreciated that. Much better than my time flipping burgers in the dining hall.

  49. Anony*

    Anyone have experience successfully launching and monetizing a website or niche blog as a side gig? I’d love to hear what worked or did not work for you!

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Regular and consistent posting schedule. Minimal ads especially ones that block the webpage. If you must get your money thru the ads you’re way better off doing well labeled sponsored posts about something relevant to your regulars rather than allowing random ads all over the page. Setup a ko-fi or a paetron. Easy ways to subscribe (email, RSS). Crosspost new posts on several forums (tumblr, insta, reddit, facebook) with links to the new content. Engage with your readers.

  50. I love potatoes*

    Is there a way to tell my manager that I want her to be more direct in her communication with me?

    There have been consistent instances I feel like I’m guessing:

    1. When she says to me and my coworker “Can one of you do X?” (sometimes X is more in the realm of my coworker’s role, sometimes it’s not, sometimes it’s more vague)
    2. I’ll be CC’d in an email, or there’ll be a conversation where she says “Let’s do Y.” (Y task may be related directly to my role but these statements will sometimes throw me off because she says that for so many things and often leaves me feeling like she’s not considerate of my workload. OR, she uses “WE” and “US” so often that I’m not sure if she means she wants me to do it, or if she’s planning on doing it.
    3. Miscommunication in general where I’m waiting on approval on her end and then she goes “Oh, I thought we were waiting on you?”

    At the start, I would usually frequently follow up with her or get clarifications but it’s happening so consistently that frustration is building up in me. When I have to follow up with her, I will sometimes also get statements like “That’s a very good question. We haven’t thought about that.”

    Aside from just always having to ask follow up questions or taking initiative to circle back to a topic, what else can I do????

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      1. You and coworker ideally need to sort that out between you. Try and volunteer roughly 50% of the time. “Sure! I can do that today” is a good response. Pause and see if coworker volunteers if not a good task for you. If neither of you sorts it in the moment, when you have free time you can do a “Hey coworker, I just finished what I was working on, do you want me to start XYZ task boss mentioned or are you working on that one?”
      2. Anything your boss says we/us assume that means YOU do it. You can also reply verbally “Ok so I’ll do XYZ this week then” (overkill dont email that). You can also clarify “Okay so I’ll add XYZ to my list after I finish ABC reports” if you want her to help your sort your task priorities.

      If you find you need a lot of clarification, try and sit down and figure out what all you need to know in general in advance, have those questions ready when she assigns it to you. “OK I’ll start that XYZ report, do you know if we will want font A or font B? And do you want to see the draft before I submit it to the printers?”

    2. LizB*

      My manager communicates in similar ways, and I always just ask follow up questions, honestly. This feels like pretty typical manager direction-giving. While you could ask her to be more direct, I feel like it might make you come off as… inexperienced, kind of? I get needing very direct instructions at early points in your career, but as you move forward, generally you wouldn’t need a straight up statement of “potatoes, do X. Jane, do Y.”

      In example 1, she probably doesn’t care whether you or your coworker does X, so you can just either pipe up with “Sure, I’ll do it!” or “Sounds like that’s more your wheelhouse, Jane, can you take it on?” depending on context.

      In example 2, I always assume that when my manager says “we,” she means one of her direct reports. You can clarify: “Would you like me to take care of sending that email?” or bring up your workload concerns: “I can send that email, but first I need to groom the high-priority llamas. Should I prioritize differently?”

      Example 3 is trickier/more annoying. I send my manager Teams chats regularly when I finish a step of some project: “Here is the draft of the Llama Manual you requested. After you give me comments/sign off, I’ll finalize it and send to the team.” and then if I haven’t heard from her in a bit, I’ll reply to the message (which creates a link to it) with something like “Did you want to add comments to the Llama Manual, or am I good to send it out as-is?” It’s kind of a pain, but it keeps both of us accountable to where projects are at.

  51. LizB*

    Kind of a vent, kind of a What Would You Have Done…

    I am an admin for a small Org that is a subsidiary of a larger Parent Org. Sally, who used to be the head of My Org, has been promoted into a role at Parent Org. She has also just gotten certified to do a type of professional coaching that she will be offering to employees of Parent Org and all its subsidiaries with Parent Org’s blessing/as part of her new role. She sent me a request to help her prep some materials for her coaching. I didn’t think this request was particularly high priority for me, since this coaching doesn’t serve My Org’s clients or mission directly, so I planned to just kinda fit it in around my normal stuff. Fast forward to this week, and whoops, turns out the request should have been HIGHEST PRIORITY for me to get out the door. I’ve gotten it sorted, but it’s still leaving me with a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

    Some other factors:
    – Even when Sally was my grandboss, I wasn’t her admin; I’m an admin for My Org.
    – I don’t think Sally has a personal admin in her new role (and idk if she has access to admins in other subsidiaries she now supervises).
    – The request she sent was complex and time-consuming.
    – Both layers of supervision between me and Sally happened to be on PTO last week, so I couldn’t check in with them about how much I should rearrange my schedule to get this request done.
    – This professional coaching is imo pretty hokey and tone deaf, especially at an org that doesn’t pay particularly well, so I do have some amount of reluctance to engage with it.

    I’m just kinda cranky with the apparent assumption that I can act as Sally’s admin for this project that is not part of what My Org does, and that I’ll automatically move her requests to the very front of my priority list even when I have actual customer-impacting work to do. Now that I know that’s the expectation, I’ll comply with it moving forward, but it wasn’t stated anywhere in the request! It seemed like a total side project! Blergh.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Definitely follow up with your boss on whether Sally can assign work to you from a different organization. That seems messed up.

      1. LizB*

        It’s tricky because technically I am employee of Parent Org, I just specifically work within My Org, and technically this professional coaching can benefit all employees and therefore make us more effective at our jobs and indirectly benefit our clients etc. etc…. which I do agree with, but when it comes down to a choice between getting clients the paperwork they need to be paid on time this week vs sending out some books so my coworker can long-term develop their professional skills, I’d really rather focus on the first thing!

    2. Anon for This*

      Talk to you boss to see if she is on board with this – it strikes me as a big overstep, but it is dependent on your organization. See if you can get an org chart to confirm whether Sally is in any way up your reporting chain – that could impact whether this is appropriate or not. If she is not, see if your boss will agree that the next time Sally asks you will send her to your boss, as your boss is the only one who can assign you work.

      1. LizB*

        I just talked with my boss, and the upshot is that she doesn’t love it but unfortunately it’s the way it’s going to be. Sally is still in my reporting chain, just a level higher than before, and she doesn’t have access to any other admins. My boss is going to talk to her about what went wrong here and ask her where in my priority list this actually needs to fall… generally Sally is very reasonable, so I’m guessing that when she’s asked, “Should LizB prioritize coaching-related projects over getting customers paid on time?” that’ll be the reality check she needs. She’s just very excited about this coaching and has little to no sense of how much work actually goes into admin tasks.

    3. RagingADHD*

      What would I do?

      You’re not going to like my answer, but if the head (or recently promoted former head) of My Org sent me an admin request of any kind, I would assume it needed some kind of immediate attention, and that Grandboss wanted me to handle it because she trusted me more than anyone in her new reporting line.

      Naturally my first step would be to ask my direct manager. But if my own reporting line were unavailable, I would respond back ASAP to clarify the timeline and (if necessary) manage expectations about how I could fit it in with the rest of my workload.

      Maybe it’s because I came up in hierarchical organizations, but “Drop everything for the Grandboss” has always been the default assumption in every admin job I’ve ever had. If I were in charge of setting my own priorities completely independently and triaging the importance of assignments from upper management, I would expect to have the title, pay, and responsibilities of a manager level role to go with it.

      TBH, I can’t imagine getting a request like that and not doing some kind of follow up / clarification with *someone* the same day.

      1. LizB*

        This is all fair, and it’s probably how I should have handled it even though my org has always been extremely Customers Come First No Matter What (that’s very much Sally’s philosophy and what she prided herself on when she led My Org). The other factor here is that I job-share with another admin and she technically should have been the person who handled the initial steps of expectation-setting and info-gathering, but that doesn’t excuse me not doing it.

        1. RagingADHD*

          You know, there was a question on here in the last week or so about “what is capital at work? How do I get it? How do I know if I have it?”

          This kind of thing – investing in your relationship / credibility with a senior leader who is moving up the ranks in your parent org –

          That’s how you get capital. You seem to be personally offended in some way that she asked you, and I for real, don’t know why. You get paid the same rate for your time, right?

          She offered you capital on a silver platter. This is a person who could do you favors back.

          1. linger*

            Some managers believe they are offering Opportunities rather than Capital, and this only becomes obvious after you’ve upended your schedule to accommodate their task, and then find they expect you to be grateful to them rather than vice versa. Now, LizB obviously will have a clearer idea of exactly where Sally falls. But it’s interesting that Customers Come First has somehow morphed into Coworker Resources Come First, which does tend to suggest both are cover terms for Sally’s Immediate Needs Come First.

            1. RagingADHD*

              I don’t even know what you mean about coworker resources. OP and Sally are not coworkers.

              OP *works for Sally.* OP’s direct bosses work for Sally Sally was head of the branch, and got promoted to corporate. Of course Sally’s immediate needs come first. *That is the nature of being an admin.*

              I mean, regardless of whether it turns into capital later, you still have a situation where 2 admins ignored a request from head office – didn’t even reply, apparently, until somebody had to chew them out about it.

              Earning capital has nothing to do with gratitude. No boss in their right mind is going to fall over themselves with gratitude because they asked an admin to do an admin task, and they did it. But they will remember who is reliable, and who is not. They will remember who does a good job, and who has to be chased.

              1. linger*

                I meant that the task assigned was to prepare documentation for Sally’s coworkers (not even within LizB’s own subsidiary).
                You’d have a point about building up capital if there was some relevance to LizB’s career plans, e.g. if she’s entertaining the idea of moving up to be the EA that Sally so clearly needs for these tasks.
                Instead, we’re explicitly told LizB sees the task as an unwelcome distraction from her actual job serving a completely different client base (her immediate managers seem to agree, but are outranked) — so this task is in practice spending Sally’s capital with LizB, rather than building up LizB’s with Sally.

  52. Generic Name*

    What are your thoughts on working while feeling under the weather? For the sake of this discussion, please assume that the issue of transmitting an illness is a non-issue, either because one is working from home or the reason one feels not great is not a transmissible illness. Specifically, I’m on my period right now, and am having some cramps, and I often just feel “blah” and not at peak form when I’m on my period. I’m working from home in my sweats, but really it would just be great to lie down with a hot pad. There’s no real reason I HAVE to be working at the moment, but I still am. I guess maybe I’ve internalized the period product ads where they show women playing basketball and going for vigorous swims. If I have a headache or feel unwell, I’ll normally at least lay down for a bit to see if I feel better, so I’m wondering why I feel like I have to just push through and get things done. How do others handle when they feel slightly unwell (but not contagious, either due to location or nature of why one feels unwell) during the work day? Do you push through?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I work from home and manage my own schedule and I STILL struggle with this! I often lie down for 20 minutes in the afternoon, but if I’m feeling really rotten and just not my best, I take a longer nap. Emails can wait.

      This has been a thing for me this week because my partner has COVID and while I’m fine, I’m stressed and sleeping in my office, which is ok but not great. Yesterday I had no meetings and just… bounced.

      Here’s my gauge: if I can’t sit up, or if I know my work will not be great, I call it a day. If I know I’ll feel better after some rest, I set my alarm for an hour and take a break.

      You have my permission to go lie down!

    2. LadyVet*

      Those commercials are B.S. They’re only to tell you that you shouldn’t have to worry about leaking. Some people don’t have terrible PMS but many people do.

      If you cuddle up with the hot pad for 20 minutes or so, will it help enough that you can get some work done? I would probably consider that my lunch or a break and then try to get stuff done, if I had any pressing tasks. If I didn’t have anything pressing, then I’d take advantage and enjoy the hot pad a lot longer, and just expect everything to balance out when I didn’t feel like my organs were being squeezed by a vice and stabbed at the same time.

    4. Educator*

      Not every day needs to be the most productive day ever. Some days I am on peak form, some days I am not. That’s the nature of being a human, not a robot, and not something to feel guilty about. On off days, I usually try to work on a task that needs to happen but does not require 100% of my brainpower. This is a day to respond to routine emails or catch up on organizing files, not embark on a major creative project.

      Also, if something makes me feel less than 100% on a routine basis, I discuss it with my doctor and insist that she take it seriously. I hate the myth that we just have to power through period pain. Managing a period can look a lot of different ways–my friend learned that her period made her iron deficient, and a supplement gave her her energy back, while I am a uterus-owner who has made the personal choice not to have a period in more than ten years–but a good doctor can help make it less disruptive.

    5. Princess Xena*

      For things that leave me feeling bleh but are not significantly impacting my day to day activities I just push through since I usually end up painfully bored it I do take time off.

    6. RagingADHD*

      If there is no pressing external “have to,” then I do what will make me feel better at the moment, mentally and emotionally as well as physically.

      Some that means pushing through minor symptoms to get something off my plate so I don’t have it lurking there when I get back. Or because I really need to feel a sense of accomplishment (dopamine hit).

      Other times it means relaxing with a hot drink, pillows, and a movie. Just depends on the situation.

    7. allathian*

      It really depends on how awful I feel and on how busy I am. I can schedule most of my work pretty freely. Some deadlines are mandatory, but most can be negotiated with my internal clients. My employer monitors working hours (legal requirement here), but there’s a lot of flexibility, I can log my work hours any time between 6 am and 11 pm, the only requirement is to attend the meetings I’ve agreed to attend and to mark any OOO time between 9 am and 3 pm (our core hours) on my shared calendar. Most meetings are scheduled between those hours.

      So yeah, if my period or PMS is making me feel awful and I’m WFH, I’ll take an extra long lunch, or schedule a 30-minute break in the afternoon to rest.

  53. Holycookiesbatman*

    I missed the original post comment section for the ‘women doing all of the scheduling labor’ earlier this week so here’s a (funny now but not then) moment I had in my job a few years ago:

    Backstory: I cover a region and have to travel to client sites with pretty much everything I *think* I need so as to not have to make a return trip, keep clients happy and running on their expensive and important systems.

    Story: A few years ago I was in the middle of transferring regions and was training my replacement, who was male and slightly younger than I am (mid-late twenties for him, early 30s for me). I texted him the night before we were supposed to meet at a client site to remember to bring an item because I knew he had one and I definitely did not and we would need it the next day. Just basically a ‘Hey remember to bring X!’

    His reply was finished with a ‘Thanks Mom’

    I may have been a little blunt in my condemnation to him about how inappropriate it was to refer to me that way, and he tried to brush it off with a ‘I was just joking’. I gave my manager a heads up that he might not be professional all the time but didn’t want to escalate it further. To his credit my managers response was perfect, he basically said he supported me fully and that ‘What does he think we’re living in the 50s?’

    The other rep did not get along with many of his other regional colleagues (shocking!) and I heard lots of tales about how lax he was in many parts of his job. He recently had to move for family reasons but my company… did not find another open position for him. In actuality, they’re working on adding personnel in his new location and I was one of the people informed that if I wanted to move I’d be up for the job. :)

    1. KayDeeAye*

      The original joke (assuming that’s what it was) was definitely problematic, but if – IF – he’d apologized promptly and never ever *ever* did it or anything similar again, it ought to be a forgivable offense. People say stupid stuff sometimes, after all. Of course, he didn’t apologize promptly, so the point is moot!

    2. Lucy Skywalker*

      Hmm. If a male coworker had reminded him to bring an item, would he have replied “Thanks, Dad?” My guess is no.

  54. Dr. Doll*

    Does anyone have a good app or software for searching things on your computer? Like, google for your own machine or your own Outlook?

    The internal search functions aren’t doing a robust enough job for me.

      1. TechWorker*

        Even if you have windows, recent versions of wsl (windows subsystem for Linux) are much better and I think should generally work.

        It would require a little bit of learning (and a little caution ;) don’t type ‘rm’ (remove)), but otherwise very powerful.

    2. Mornington Cresent*

      Have you tried Agent Ransack? It works wonders for me when I want to search a specific phrase and Windows search isn’t cutting it.

      1. Girasol*

        Thanks for the suggestion! Windows search used to be great but Cortana is so lackadaisical she ought to be on a PIP.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Outlook has really robust search features available in the ‘search folders’ option, you can basically look in any field if you go into the advanced sections. You just need to set them up as custom search folders and then define your exact criteria. I usually have one named ‘ad hoc’ that i just edit as needed.
      For files, i honestly drop to powershell. get-childitem lets you get the files, and then you can pipe it into where filters.

  55. An inquiry*

    I think I messed up… how do I fix this. I’m in the process of researching starting a business. I have two companies I GREATLY admire in the same industry. You could say that they inspired me in that I could do this on a professional level. However IN THEORY I would be a competitor even if my business concentrated in different areas of this industry (there would be some overlap). Even as a “competitor” I would still use these companies services. Both of these two independent companies have divisions that provide services and even a few retail items to start ups similar to my potential business. I emailed both companies expressing how I admire their business, saying how I am researching my own company and wanting to get information about working with said divisions. Both companies are small (under 30 employees but rated tops amoung the industry)…. But it’s been over a month with no response. Did I mess something up? How do I fix this?

      1. An inquiry*

        Sadly I think that’s correct. I’m still in the research phase. Perhaps when I am established I will be able to have better contact

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      Not sure how to fix, if possible. But I’ve had problems getting technical responses from vendors and I work for a division of a larger company owned by one of the BIG guys.

    3. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      There’s a good chance that their lack of response has nothing to do with you, or how you handled it. Honestly, there’s little motivation for companies to engage with a stranger who sent them a cold email wanting something from them. Consider saving further pursuit of these two (highly important to you) orgs until you’ve gotten a little more research and planning under your belt. Find more folks to talk to and iterate with, and once you have a more targeted ask or a specific offer you might be more successful with these two.

    4. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Money talks. They’re not going to mentor you to start a competing business. But once you’re up and running, you can request a quote for services and I’m certain they’ll be happy to cater to you as a customer.

    5. RagingADHD*

      There’s nothing to fix. You didn’t do anything egregious, but they have no real reason to respond.

      You aren’t actually in a position to buy anything yet because your company doesn’t exist. You were basically requesting an informational interview, which is a favor and not a paid service. You’re a “lookie lou.”

      They aren’t going to help you with your business plan for free. When you’re ready to buy something, ask again.

  56. Team Cheer*

    Any suggestions on good programs for team building? I am part of a small team (4-5) in academic administration. We’ve been working as a full team only for a few months now and I it seems we’re just now in a position of knowing each other enough, and knowing our duties enough, to be working effectively. That part is great and will likely continue to improve over time. However, It is just occurring to me now that our team has the potential to be _even better_ if we learn more about how to work together, leverage each others talents, and how to cheer each other on when things are hard, and celebrate the successes. Any suggestions on good programs you know of? thanks!!!

      1. Colette*

        I wouldn’t recommend that, unless you have a team who are already working well together and without anyone who will take the escape room too seriously. If you have one person who really cares about getting out and who doesn’t like letting someone else take charge, it’s a recipe for disaster. Not to mention the people who can’t stand the thought of getting locked up.

      2. Four of ten*

        I’m not especially claustrophobic, but the idea of an escape room completely freaks me out. I’d not like being in one ever, team or not.

        1. TechWorker*

          Virtual escape rooms also exist, which have the problem solving without the actual ‘locked in’ element. I’ve done some quite fun ones.

      3. Rosyglasses*

        They also have virtual escape rooms which can be really great because they have a facilitator from the company there with you in case you get really stuck. We’ve had good luck with those as communication building/fun building events.

    2. cubone*

      I know a few people whose workplaces have brought in a CliftonStrengths coach and everyone loved it. There’s been lots of AAM letters recently about workplaces overstepping and insisting on personality tests or over sharing of personal stuff, and I think some people who hate that sort of stuff would put CliftonStrengths into that bucket, but personally I found it super workplace appropriate .. it’s just focused on understanding and discussing your strengths in a pretty positive way and the overarching themes that teams need a multitude of different strengths to be successful. People might identify with the strengths in the context of their personal lives but there’s no requirement to do so, so it can stay pretty firmly in a work context. It really to me checks the boxes you said you’re looking for.

      (Respect to Anonymous Educator, but i haaaaaaaaaaaated doing an escape room with my old colleagues and would 100% fake sick if a future job ever tried to make me do it again)

      1. TechWorker*

        I’m pretty sure I would feel the same extreme negativity towards CliftonStrengths. Just not my bag. Luckily I work with a bunch of tech cynics so unlikely to ever be forced into things like that.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I suggest actually the opposite of taking those strengths finders or personality test seriously. If handled like they are a fun conversation starter for getting to know one another, they can be ok. But I would stress to the team that they aren’t really scientific, and should not used to define people; it depends on your team though — someone in the group might put a lot of stock into them, and others think they are a glorified horoscope or no better than a “What Star Wars Character Are You?” quiz. Cheering and Celebrating are so individually specific that you should just ask how/if they want to participate — no exercise required.

    4. retired3*

      As an introvert, I don’t see why I would want to do this. It just sounds unnecessary. The team is not my family or my friends. Do you know if others want want to do this or would be comfortable saying no??

  57. Anonymous Educator*

    For folks who have been in the work force for a while and doubled, tripled, or even quadrupled (!) your first job’s salary, have you generally found that you are working a much easier job now or have you found that your current job is much harder?

    I’m fortunate to be making quite a bit more than my first full-time job, but my job now is orders of magnitude easier than my first job. I feel it should be the opposite. I shoud have been paid a lot more at my first job.

    1. Ozzie*

      I’ll just look at where I started in this industry (warehouse worker) to where I am now (desk worker/planner/data entry/etc)…. I make around double what I made working on the warehouse floor of my first job (and way better benefits), and while the actual physical work is a lot easier, I think my job now is a lot more work overall – it just doesn’t look like it. It was a lot easier to kick issues up the chain when things didn’t work, because the problem-solving was their job, not mine. I was just supposed to implement the changes (that were often considered with my input, but not always). Now I… have to find the root of the problems, consult with the teams for their input, think of the solution, think of how to design and then implement the solution, all which dealing with customers and making sure that same team has what they need to do their day to day. And I’m not even a manager.

      So… it’s vastly different work, but sometimes I do miss the relative ease of the physical labor side of my field, vs the planning and problem solving that exhausts my brain day in and day out when I have a particularly sticky problem to solve. (but I know that this is absolutely not the case in every field, nor do I think physical labor is easy! I just think there is an elegant simplicity to it at times that I don’t really get anymore in my day to day, at least in my specific field/workplace… which probably means that I’m doing my current job ok, I guess)

      1. Ozzie*

        This being said, I also should have been paid more at my first job for what I was doing – it was barely a living wage in its location, and I was on my feet 8 hours a day in a non-AC’d warehouse, and working staggered hours throughout the week, often not given sufficient break times. I’ve pushed for less disparity in my current workplace (though have little control over it) because it felt bad then, and I don’t want to work in places who treat their warehouse workers the way I was treated at that job.

    2. Overeducated*

      I make almost 3x my first salary in my organization. It’s kind of hard to compare. My job is significantly more complex now and more difficult organizationally and strategically, but it’s less physically and emotionally demanding. Working with the public on a day to day basis IS skilled work that is hard in its own way, the specific skills that my job is paid more highly for may not be quite as common but it doesn’t mean they’re harder or more important. I also have a lot more autonomy over my schedule, and have been able to telework through most of covid, which public-facing personnel can’t.

    3. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      Since I’ve been around awhile, I make 5-6x today and my job is about the same in difficulty overall. It’s more difficult in that I have much higher-order responsibility and seniority – more is expected, my role is more visible, the work is much more complex and difficult. It’s easier in that I am more confident and skilled today — I handle the more complex stuff with the same amount of hours/stress. Plus I have a lot more flexibility / freedom, which makes things easier. (However, it’s worth noting I’ve actively avoided management — that additional layer of responsibility would definitely tilt the balance for me and make my job a LOT harder and more stressful than it was when I was young.)

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Similar salary growth and career trajectory for me. The nature of my work (research and writing, mostly) hasn’t changed all that much in the day-to-day from first career job to now, but the expectations of what I can produce are much higher and the problems I analyze are a lot more sophisticated.

    4. djc*

      I started my first job out of college in 2001. I am making double of what I got when I first started. I work in software development as a system/business analyst. My job is a lot easier now than when I first started. Easier in the sense that I rarely have enough work to fill up a 40-hour work week. I also WFH full time now. I could probably earn more if I moved to another company, but the perks of WFH and having capital at my current place are keeping me here for now.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      While I agree that I worked much harder physically in my first job than I do now, I can’t really say that my job is easier. It may appear to others to be easier, and I do not have as long a list of tasks, but the person who worked that first job could not do what I do now, would not be trusted to make the decisions I do. It’s a different kind of hard.

    6. Hillary*

      My current pay is a bit over 4x my first post-college job 20 years ago (yikes, time flies).

      My first job was hard because I had so much to learn. It was very different accountability from my HS or college jobs, a lot more people and processes, and I had to get used to the fact that I didn’t get breaks every couple months anymore. It was very hard at the time, but in retrospect it was easy and they were paying me about right for what I produced.

      My job now is much more difficult in a very different way. I’m expected to produce at a strategic level, solve complicated problems, and convince people to do what I want. I use soft skills in a way that would have been impossible for 22-year-old me.

    7. Somehow_I_Manage*

      If you were to work in consulting, for example, you are not necessarily producing work at a rate 2 or 3 times more than an entry level staff. But your company is using your qualifications to win and solicit work- which is worth orders of magnitude more to the team. In that way, you’ve “earned” the privileged because you bring something other’s can’t, and that has value. You also presumably have skills, such as project management, and staff management, that take years to develop- again, those roles don’t necessarily take more hours in the day, but they can’t be replaced by an entry level staff member.

    8. Can't think of a funny name*

      I’m about 20 years into my career…make almost 4x my starting salary. Job is easier now b/c I know what I’m doing (lol), I wfh and I only work 40-hours a week for the most part. First job was public accounting which was way too many hours and too many weekends.

    9. RagingADHD*

      My current job requires a helluva lot more knowledge and skill, and it is far more mentally taxing. It is harder in that I have to deal with clients and manage processes in a far more nuanced way that I did (or could have done) in earlier jobs.

      My first jobs were physically harder and had more stressful interactions with obnoxious people. But I didn’t have to think as hard either.

      My first jobs *felt* harder in many ways because I had no idea what I was doing or how anything worked. My current job feels easier but is *objectively* harder because I quite literally could not have done it with the limited skills I had back then.

    10. Jackers*

      My current pay is NINE times what I started at with my company in 1999. But I was a temporary admin then fresh out of college and 11 roles later I am now a Director leading a team of 60. Needless to say, much more difficult.

    11. Cj*

      I’ve been in the workforce since it early 1980s, and I’m making 10 times when I was in. Partly because I finished my degree and got my CPA license, partly due to inflation, and partly due to the fact that I am able to do much more complex tax returns at this point.

      And not insignificantly, I just started a new job with a 44% raise, so I went from making something like seven times as much to 10 times as much as my first job.

      I would say the work is definitely harder, but doesn’t seem all that much harder to me because of my decades of experience.

    12. PsychNurse*

      100%! There is no job more miserable than a new-grad nursing job. They’re always on the most difficult floors, with the most patients assigned to you, at night, with no support. And it’s the lowest pay you’ll ever get in your career! After some experience, nurses tend to move to jobs that are progressively easier AND progressively higher paid. It seems somehow backwards!

  58. Croki*

    just a short question I wanted to get readers input on- as a college senior, when should I start applying for entry level jobs? I’ve heard start now, start in January, not until March, etc. I’m sure it varies by company, but can anyone weigh in?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      It varies by company and also by field. What field(s) are you looking to enter, and do you know when your classmates who are interested in the same field(s) are planning on applying?

      On the company side, larger companies are more likely to do their hiring further ahead of time because they have the HR and other systems in place to offer jobs in December/March/whenever and wait until a June start date. That’s a broad rule of thumb, though, and there will be many larger companies that don’t hire very far out as well as smaller companies that do.

      I’m in engineering, and most of my classmates applied throughout their senior year for engineering jobs. Some started looking in September, others waited until after graduation but I would say by spring semester most people were applying to jobs.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Depends on field. Apply early but be clear up front what your start date is. Most companies who hire entry level, college grads know they’re a May/June start date and go ahead and start recruiting much earlier anyway. Once they fill a position its gone. I put on my resume “expected graduation May year” and cover letter included “available to start full time work on mm/dd/yy”. There’s usually good fall career fairs too, make sure you hit those.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Are you hoping to be an investment banker? If so, the fall is good to start. If you’re looking to be a teacher, I’d start in January. If you’re looking for some kind of generic office job, I would wait until you’re at least 3 months from graduation.

    4. Virginia Professor*

      I am a college professor and it really depends on your major. My students are in a very hot field and I encourage them to start applying in the fall but other fields start later. Definitely get your resume up to speed this fall. Go to your college career office and find out when the career fairs occur and be ready to attend them with lots of copies of your resume. Take advantage of practice interviews and company visits if your school uses them. That helps you figure out what company schedules are like. And if your school uses Handshake or another package to connect students to employers, put yourself and your resume in the system and start searching for openings. They will have deadlines which helps you with the timing.

    5. JumpAround*

      Honestly it’s going to depend on your field and the company. Some places can wait for candidates to graduate and some need someone to come in stat.

      I would say look into your colleges career center to get your resume polished up and also take advantage of any career fairs your college has, I certainly wish I had.

    6. fueled by coffee*

      Like everyone else has said, this is field- (and employer-)specific.

      Definitely get your resume in order, and look for career fairs being hosted on your campus! It’s a good way to familiarize yourself with entry-level roles at medium-to-large companies. You can ask the recruiters about hiring timelines, and some will even do informational — or real! — interviews on campus.

    7. Hillary*

      As others said, it depends on your major. My employer is going to be at on-campus job fairs over the next three weeks, I’m representing my function at one of them. We just opened up the reqs for our rotation programs – our first round of offers will go out in October. We’re hiring for supply chain, finance, HR, and digital leadership development programs. We’ll keep hiring until we fill the programs or until orientation in June.

  59. Academic glass half full*

    Techniques for keeping my eyes on my own plate please.
    Someone of a higher rank and salary (Director) has made a commitment to a huge project that if successful would have an enormous impact on my department- I am a manager.
    A public commitment without including me.
    It is now 2 and 1/2 years later.
    I have delivered everything asked of me.
    She has done Nothing.
    Really nothing.
    Stakeholders are asking me and I refer them to her.
    She doesn’t engage with them.
    She cancels meetings at the last minute with important (to me people)
    or doesn’t show up.
    I do not report to her.
    I have spoken to my supervisor who just keeps saying that things will get better.
    I think I need some self talk along the lines that other people’s behavior doesn’t reflect on me.
    This failure is hers not mine.

    1. cubone*

      Maybe check out the locus of control idea (just Google and you’ll get a ton of stuff).

      FWIW I had a boss like this and I spent a lot of time being frustrated to the point I quit, and guess what? Boss is still there, multiple promotions, multiple massive public commitments that I am certain she is not contributing to and a new employee is in my same spot. Deep down it still hurts but it was a pretty perspective changing experience to remember that we don’t all have the same values and priorities. DOING the work was never part of her mental commitment to the project and she absolutely sees no failure on her part, because she measured her success by what it says on paper she’s responsible for. That’s it. It was frustrating but I think a net positive for me to realize there isn’t some karmic justice coming (or the “things will get better” other senior staff also promised me at the time). Some people don’t have the same values as you, and she clearly does not value actually doing this work well. All you can hang on to is what YOU value and try to live in that (as cheesy as it sounds)

      1. Academic glass half full*

        This is very helpful.
        I’m not going anywhere. I am tenured and full and about 5 years away from retirement.
        You are right, it is a how I see work.
        She does take credit for other peoples work (I know this as a fact)
        And if her supervisor and my supervisor don’t care, I’m going to have to just let this go and see what happens.
        My goals this year are a better work /life balance after the the last ten years of 80/20 if that.

  60. Chidi has a stomach ache*

    Okay, I need to work on a script for a discussion with my boss.

    I’m Director of Llama Grooming and Llama Breeding. There used to be an assistant director of the Llama Grooming Program who was underneath me on the org chart, but didn’t officially report to me. Due to some personnel changes, the AD had to step into a new role, and they are moving oversight of the llama grooming program to the Director of Special Llama Programs, who starts next week. This role is in an entirely different area of our org chart.

    I don’t know what this means for llama grooming portion of my job. When I was hired, I thought I was brought on to grow and expand both llama grooming and llama breeding, but in practice my job has been 80% breeding, and 20% grooming. Some of that is related to COVID restrictions that affect the llama grooming program, so I was kind of waiting until we were in a better place to make changes and grow the grooming program. But now, it’s not clear that llama grooming is in my purview anymore. But that’s the part that I actually have the most experience with. If I’m just director of llama breeding, the job is a lot less interesting to me.

    So I’m trying to figure out a way to go to my boss and ask 1) for clarification about my position, and 2) let her know that I do not want to step away from llama grooming entirely, and in fact it will make me start looking for another position, without making it seem like an ultimatum?

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      I think I recall that you are in higher ed, and the creation of the new special director programs position in a different part of the org chart suggests to me that the higher ups are shifting their institutional priories and/or worrying more about llama-related things, especially breeding. My guess is that your boss won’t have much say in how much llama breeding you work you do going forward. Can you make an argument for redesigning your job in a way that fits the new org chart and is more interesting to you? Good luck!

  61. CalAH*

    I need help prioritizing what support to request from my supervisor.
    My support needs fall into two categories. First, a reduction of additional duties that are not in my job description. I was promoted six months ago but have continued to fill my previous position. Filling my old job was supposed to be temporary until we hired more staff. Management is currently rewriting the job description to re-advertise the position. I need a timeline of when they plan to advertise. Until then, I would be better able to do my current job if one or two of my four major responsibilities were shifted to the staff members who ran them before I was hired. Failing that, I’d like a chain of command for which coworkers can assist in these duties when I’m unavailabe, instead of our current system where I plan my medical appointments and vacations around these tasks. I’d even settle for blocking out one day a month that I am not available to work overtime on these projects.
    My second support need relates to my gender transition. My request is for coworkers to use my pronouns. I came out at work nine months ago. A few coworkers adjusted quickly. The rest still need daily reminders to use my pronouns. Even with calm, polite reminders every day, these coworkers have not made progress. This includes my supervisor. No one has been directly hostile, and they say our office is a welcoming place. They have been hurt or upset when others question that view.
    Since I have not been able to rely on my coworkers for support in this part my social transition, it has not felt safe asking them for support in other areas. This is becoming problematic as transgender people in our area are increasingly targeted. The monthly evening I’d like off from work is to attend a support group where we discuss safety plans and how best to support whichever member is getting death threats for being trans in public (yes, really).
    Our office tends to run from crisis. I’ve requested this support before and been told things will improve once we get through X problem, but then after X there’s suddenly Y and Z. Is there a way to flag my needs as urgent?

    1. Ozzie*

      I unfortunately don’t have help for the second need of support that doesn’t involve escalating it above your manager at this point, which I can also think of a number of reasons not to do.

      As for your first issue though, I can relate to it, and share how I have been handling a similar problem, though with mixed successes, and with the caveat that my direct management is very supportive and competent, and as frustrated with issues above their heads as I am.

      I’ve been in a role that is poorly suited for me since I was hired, and have been trying to work to transition to a better-suited role for 5(!) years, being made promises along the way. (as for why I have stayed, it’s PSLF + other stuff, and ultimately liking the company, if not the job) After a couple of changes in management over the time, and a number of reallocations of duties (when staffing made it feasible, many of the things I do not excel in and do not like have been moved off my plate so I was able to focus on other things), we are in a place where a) management has a semi-concrete plan to move me out of this role entirely and b) I am able to simply say I cannot do something because I don’t have the time.

      I think the key is to go to your manager about this issue specifically, and lay out how you need to allocate your time between the two positions, and specifically what is being pushed off from your new position in favor of continuing to do your previous. Then, explain what you would be able to do in your new position if X, Y, and Z things from old position were given to someone else. (whether it be a new hire or other colleagues) I personally would not offer over time, etc., but simply lay out what work can’t be done within your work day/week/month, and then ask for and offer possible solutions about reallocation of those duties to others/hiring for your previous position.

      The thing is, as long as everything continues to get done, there isn’t a reason to hire someone new (unless you work in a fully functional company, but you’ve already kind of exposed flaws here by posing the issue in the first place), which is probably why they’re dragging their feet about it. Especially if you don’t get paid for overtime. (50-60 hours of work a week but we still only pay for 40!? Why hire someone else when this is cheaper???) I’m not saying necessarily let everything go by the wayside outside of those 40 hours, but being direct and up front about what you reasonably can and cannot do is a great first step. Saying “no” is a learned skill, and one that we’re kind of encouraged to not do unfortunately, but healthy boundaries help us work better and have a better overall product. So, make your boss decide what does and does not get done, or make them allocate things appropriately. And tell them that you need a timeline for this to happen, because you want to hit the ground running on A, B, C things from your new position. Definitely make it a conversation, not an ultimatum. Giving your manager the benefit of the doubt, maybe they didn’t realize it was an issue and this will open their eyes that the problem is actually urgent and they need to stop dragging their feet. Maybe it’s not them, but higher ups that are causing problems, and this could incentivize them to act more urgently and push harder.

      Ultimately, if they’re not going to act with any urgency on the matter though, I personally would not either. I wouldn’t offer overtime to get things done, etc., unless they’re actually showing that they’re working to solve the issue, and it will make your life easier in the interim. (I’m much more charitable to the bosses who have shown they are working to solve my problem here, and given me frequent updates, vs, say, the one who actively pushed off a raise and promotion, or the one who was sexist toward me) Obviously use judgement based on your actual field, relationship with your boss/coworkers, company culture, etc., but it’s also important to learn to say “no” when they are expecting truly unreasonable things.

      1. CalAH*

        Five years? Oof!! I’m sorry, that’s hard.
        My office is actually hesitant to grant overtime, instead expecting us to flex out our hours. So when I need to attend regular after-hours meetings for one of my old responsibilities, I don’t have the hours to do my current job. The whole department is working through a backlog so seems to accept that I also have new cases piling up. I’ll continue reminding my supervisor that they’re paying me a higher salary to do my old work, when we could be paying me to help dig through our collective backlog.

    2. Colette*

      For #1, I suggest you point out that you can’t keep covering both jobs, suggest that your old job be parceled out to those left, and get your manager’s agreement. And then – this is the hard part for a lot of people – stop doing those pieces. At the end of your day, get up and go home. Sometimes the only way to get action is to let things fail.

      1. CalAH*

        I’ll bring this up again and ask for suggestions of who could take the tasks. A complicating factor is that we’re a public-facing local government agency. So the stakes of letting things fail are fairly high. I’ll highlight the stakes of failure with management to see if that motivates them to bring in more staff for these projects.

        1. Colette*

          I don’t think you should get too involved with who will take the tasks – make it clear what you can do in a reasonable workday, and then let your manager figure out who will do the parts you can’t do.

      1. CalAH*

        Thanks for linking the toolkit, it’s great! I actually sent it to my manager back in early July (along with a few links to resources on Ask a Manager). At our next one on one, I’ll ask to read through it with her to see if that changes anything.

    4. Bluebell*

      I’d reframe your “request for people to use your correct pronouns” to TELL people to use your correct pronouns. Enough time has passed since you first made the request. Now you can correct them. Keep a straight face and a serious, cool tone that is unapologetic. At this point I think you don’t even need to say please. Enough is enough.

  62. Anonononononononymous*

    I finally decided to take the plunge and I’m interviewing for the role that supervises the team I’m currently on later today.

    Thing is, I’ve been on the interview panel for this position in the past, so I’m pretty sure I know what questions they’ll be asking. I’ve been acting in the role for a year (and was basically doing the job for a while before that due to vacancies and a really incompetent previous manager). I’m being gang-interviewed by most of the people I would normally use as references. And it’s been over a decade since I was an interviewee. It all feels really weird.

    Anybody have words of wisdom on interviewing with people who’ve known you for years for a position you’re already doing?

    1. Ozzie*

      Bring in any info on what you have already done to make this role a success! You have the benefit of having verifiable evidence that you’re a good fit, not just abstract, semi-related examples. Flaunt all your hard work! It also sounds like you’re going in to interview with a favorable panel – which can be scary, but also more relaxed. You don’t have to explain to strangers and convince them that you’re competent and a good fit. They already know your competency – so just remind them of all your hard work, and how you will flex your skills to excel in the role moving forward.

    2. cardigarden*

      Ditto Ozzie! I was in your position, and I was able to finesse a way to say “I’ve done all this work already, and I’ve done it well. I can hit the ground running and not waste time getting up to speed on all the projects.”

    3. Iron Man*

      Have good solid prepared answers. Make sure you wow them if you need to do a presentation. I was in your position and got passed over. :(

    4. Educator*

      Lower the stakes in your own head as much as you can. Remember that this is not a referendum on whether they like you, or whether you have been doing this role well–I am sure they do, and that you have, or they would not have had you do it for a year!

      This interview is just about whether you are the best candidate for the role at this time. I have been an interviewer for roles where I knew the internal candidates well, really liked and respected them, and had no doubt that they could do the job well in its current form–but still hired someone else because that someone else had some experience or qualification that was going to be helpful for the direction the organization was going. Like with any job interview, there are a lot of factors outside your control. Control what you can by painting a clear picture of what you have achieved in the role and your goals for the future.

  63. Get Me Out Of Here*

    I want my last day at this terrible job to be in two weeks (September 23). My boss is OOO for a personal trip today and Monday (and I don’t want to give him my notice anyway because he’s a large part of the reason I’m leaving), and my grandboss is working in California (there’s a big event for our company over the weekend). Do I schedule a call with grandboss on Monday morning first thing his time?

    1. Empress Matilda*

      That sounds like your best option under the circumstances. Good luck, and congratulations on leaving a terrible job!

    2. JumpAround*

      Yes! Take your boss being out of the office as a blessing in disguise and call your grand boss instead.

    3. Educator*

      Honestly, I would wait until Tuesday and tell your boss directly unless you really want to burn bridges. If I were your grandboss, I would be really uncomfortable accepting your resignation when it was so obvious that you were trying to avoid a pretty routine conversation with your boss. (And you won’t avoid it anyway, because your grandboss will promptly tell your boss on Tuesday, and your boss will almost certainly want to talk to you about it then.) If your boss was out for weeks, sure, you could resign to your grandboss, but it is clearly a dodge when he is only out for two days.

      One of the most important things in a situation like this is to control the messaging. People will remember how you leave, and you may cross paths with them again. You want to tell your boss, your grandboss, and everyone else the same story about why you are leaving so that they don’t make negative assumptions. That story should be very bland–something like “looking to do more work like x.” I would tell your boss on Tuesday (just repeat the bland reason over and over in different words, and the conversation will not be so bad) and then immediately email your grandboss (have a draft ready!) to let them know that you just told your boss you resigned because of [bland reason] and wanted to let them know directly as well. Mention something nice about how much you have learned from grandboss. That way, if your awful boss goes ranting to your grandboss with any other stories about your departure, grandboss will already know that you handled this like the mature professional you are, and your boss will look unprofessional. Try to circumvent your boss, and you will look unprofessional.

      1. Get Me Out Of Here*

        Thanks for this view, and I do agree about the neutral messaging for why I’m leaving. My grandboss already knows the problems I have with my boss, to the extent that HR is involved. My boss has repeatedly complained about people in other departments giving less than two weeks’ notice, which is why I think it’s more important to submit it to someone first thing on Monday than to submit it to him on Tuesday, because I’m not willing to work past the 23rd.

        1. Educator*

          Good for you for leaving a toxic situation–that takes courage. I hope you land somewhere that is a much better fit.

        2. WellRed*

          Giving one less day of notice is fine. I wouldn’t even expect to work that extra day or two into the new week.

  64. Not a hustler, don't play one on t.v.*

    Inept Bosses – why why why?
    Can’t you use Excel?
    Do you need everything explained to you vs you spending time with the info first?
    Do you get anxious when something has data and requires thinking?
    Can’t use time manage or proficiently use Outlook?
    Do you proclaim every day, “I have to get organized!?’
    Don’t you put deadlines on work requests and let us tell you it’s not/feasible?
    Do you get upset when you can’t get a hold of an employee WFH at 12:15 during lunchtime?

    Our fundraising director lacks so many basic office and management skills, I don’t know how she’s going to personally raise $150k this year.

    1. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      “Do you proclaim every day, “I have to get organized!?’” this would drive me bonkers!

      1. Reflection Nebula - Constellation Orion*

        Every.Day!

        She uses her Outlook calendar but not well.
        She tried Asana – forgot it.
        She doesn’t make a task list online to coordinate with her calendar
        She writes everything down, but it rarely translates to electron
        She won’t adopt Tasks by Planner in Teams

    2. not to out myself*

      This IS our development director. I just can’t understand how she keeps her job.
      I am SO resentful of her salary and years (yes years) of her not doing her job being my problem.

  65. Empress Matilda*

    I have an equity and inclusion question for everyone. I work in the head office for a large retailer (~700 stores), and we’re starting a bunch of Employee Resource Groups for various topics.

    The question has come up as to how the groups will communicate, share resources, etc. The obvious answer is MS Teams – the problem is that the corporate employees have access to Teams, but the retail employees do not. The current proposal is to use Service Now, which everyone can access – the problem is there’s no discussion space in SN, it’s just for one-way communication from designated individuals. I don’t think we’d be allowed to use a different channel such as Slack – we’re pretty much stuck with what we have here.

    Either way, somebody is going to be excluded – retail employees won’t be able to participate if we use Teams, and there’s no informal participation at all if we use SN. So, is there a way to square this circle? Any thoughts are appreciated!

    1. PrincessFlyingHedgehog*

      Can the retail employees get set up with company email accounts, so that they can access Teams?

    4. Chirpy*

      From the retail store side: my company uses Zipline and eliminated our department emails (previously each department in a store had an email which all employees in that department could use, it would not send/receive emails outside of the company as that function was restricted to store managers). On the one hand, this now lets us ask questions to other stores more easily, but the major, major downside is they did not include anyone from corporate on this system. Since they took away our emails, we do not have any way of contacting buyers/ merchandisers anymore, which is a huge deal because the only way to get pricing on some of our special order items is to contact corporate. There is one buyer who did get added to Zipline because one of the items she handles requires immediate replies (live animals) but for some reason corporate just will not put anyone else on there (and nobody at corporate answers phones since they now work from home, despite that being the only workaround for the emails.)

      So I don’t have a great answer other that please figure this out for the sake of your employees. Zipline does have the ability to separate everyone out into teams, so you can send things to the whole company or just specific groups.

    5. Educator*

      It is pretty clear that everyone needs access to Teams for these groups to work the way you want. Remember that retail employees may also need training on how to use Teams, since it is not a part of their regular work, and, ideally, access to devices like computers. The Teams mobile app is great for casual chat, but it is definitely easier create and read documents on a laptop or desktop. And if these groups are something the corporate employees can do on the clock, when they are in Teams anyway, you will need to make sure that retail employees are not expected to do this work unpaid.

    6. Fikly*

      ERGs are pretty much ineffective to begin with. They’re a great way for companies to find out who identifies as being part of what group, paints a target on those backs, and they typically don’t have any power to change anything. They are also often the only DEI thing done. So people who have experience with DEI problems are going to be wary of ERGs to begin with, especially in a large company where it will appear to be just lip service, especially if not backed up by real, concrete actions.

      Starting the ERGs from a point of exclusion only reaffirms this. Rather than a specific solution, you need to point out that if you don’t do this right, you’re going to lose the buy in.

      But alas, likely the point isn’t to do it right, but to look like they’re doing it right, and that’s why DEI efforts are about holding white people’s hands and assuring them they’re not racist, don’t worry, and if you just change one thing you don’t have to feel guilty.

    8. Observer*

      I’m not even sure I understand the question.

      What are these groups supposed to be? If it’s just a bunch of resources, then Service Now is fine. If this is actually supposed to be the equivalent of a meeting space where people are going to be able to ask questions and discuss stuff then that’s obviously a non-starter.

      But why are you limited to using Teams? This is a new project, with new infrastructure needs. Why are you assuming that you can’t build out what you need? It doesn’t have to be Slack, but I think that if I were involved I would start from the assumption that we would be open figuring out what the needs of the program are and then getting the tools we need if the ones we have don’t work.

      And of course, there is always the option of giving all the employees Teams, although I can see that being on the expensive side.

  66. Trying not to be a grump*

    I got promoted at my annual review April22 but the paperwork has been exceptionally slow and it still isn’t in place. A major chunk of this time was on my manager not HR. I’m now so upset at the time it’s taken and having to constantly chase for status updates and next steps that instead of being excited to announce it I’m dreading the influx of “congratulations” while will only serve as a reminder this is a year late (the 6 months prior to my review I was working at the level but my manager refused to acknowledge it-which she openly admitted was unfair in my review).

    What I want is a script for raising this with my manager, I don’t want to keep going “is it there yet” but also I do actually need (and want!) to know if it’s there yet! How can I nicely say “this is painful and others got promoted at the same time and it took effect months ago, this is making me really unhappy and I feel completely unvalued and demotivated”?

    1. Reflection Nebula - Constellation Orion*

      You don’t have to nicely say, “How can I nicely say “this is painful and others got promoted at the same time and it took effect months ago, this is making me really unhappy and I feel completely unvalued and demotivated”? Just say it the way your wrote it.

      Tell your manager that they’re hurting you, emotionally and work socially because they’re not following through. Your manager clearly doesn’t have your best intentions in their view per the comment ‘She admitted doing some unfair to me.’ This person is not your advocate, thus you must be (and should always be for yourself).

      1. Trying not to be a grump*

        I suspect you’re right and I need to grow up and say it as it is. We brits are just stuck in overly polite mode for anything and everything.

        I am fully aware she isn’t my advocate and handle that with the rest of my work life not a problem (not my first experience of this type of manager!). This is literally the only thing I actually need them for. It’s infuriating

        1. Reflection Nebula - Constellation Orion*

          First, condolences on your country’s loss.

          Second, I had an enjoyable 3 years working with Brits while stationed at a NATO base in Germany

          Third, but the big Brit pantaloons on and have at it – YOU CAN DO IT!

          1. Trying not to be a grump*

            Thank you-both for your condolences but also for the phrase “big brit pantaloons” which will now echo in my ear for the duration of my 121 Monday (insert laughing emoji)

    2. JumpAround*

      Rather than ask your manager “is it done yet” ask them what the timeframe looks like and ask if they can commit to having it done in that time frame.

      1. Trying not to be a grump*

        Tried that language and got nowhere. Unfortunately it’s the first time they have promoted someone so they don’t have a clue, and it shows when they can’t answer me asking what the steps are, if there’s a timeframe I can have in mind, or any idea of how it gets communicated when it does go live.

    3. PollyQ*

      Any chance there are other openings at your company, or are you willing to job-hunt? I’ve never heard of this kind of delay for a promotion, and “I quit” will get the message across as well as anything.

      1. Trying not to be a grump*

        Thanks, I’ve considered quitting but it’s a pivotal promotion in terms of seniority within the sector, there’s not a way for me to get the promotion externally as a new recruit. Sector and role specific quirk, which is what makes it more important for me than a more routine “step up”.

    4. Meep*

      Ask about retroactive pay and what that will look like. I find that spurs them to do things sooner than dragging their feet because a lump sum looks terrible when you justify not paying your employee you promised a raise to save money.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Can you engage directly with HR to find out the status? If your manager has submitted the necessary paperwork, it’s now on them. If she has not, then you can ask why, or offer to help with it. (In the past I offered, then prepared the paperwork for my boss so that all he had to do was sign and hit send.) Good luck in getting this sorted.

      Any my condolences as well – your queen was an amazing woman!

      2. Trying not to be a grump*

        Thanks both, I hadn’t considered just going to HR and assuming my manager simply won’t do their job. Seems obvious now you say it.

        Thank you for the condolences

  67. Seasonally Shiftless*

    I work in a seasonal industry (think plant nursery). I love my job, and have no desire to leave it. However, I get bored. Another income source would also be very welcome.

    Any suggestions on what other fields of seasonal work there are out there? All I can think of is taxes and holiday retail. Do any of you have any suggestions of other fields I can look into?

    2. Emm*

      I know a guy who drove trucks across glaciers for tourists six months out of the year. Not sure if that’s in your wheelhouse, but that kind of seasonal resort and tourist work might be a good place to look.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Summer seasonal labor:
      – lifeguard
      – jobs in tourist/beach towns
      – hiking trail guide
      – park ranger (I think the National Parks Service hires a lot of people for temp summer roles)
      – summer camp jobs (admin, kitchen staff, on-site nurse–there’s a lot more than the counselors!)

      Winter seasonal labor:
      – ski resort (and adjacent) jobs
      – snow plow/snow removal
      – holiday package delivery (temp jobs at Amazon/UPS/etc.)

      1. Okapifeels*

        I was going to say park service! A lot of rangers are seasonal. A lot of the parks provide on-site housing, too. My sister is a career ranger and had to start out with seasonal work–luckily the housing made it so she could work in a ton of incredible places across the country without needing to worry about cost of living.

    4. djc*

      Here in the US, I have seen my local city government post seasonal jobs related to snow removal and parks & rec maintenance.

  68. Ghostofcorporatefuture*

    I’m having the hardest time figuring out a field I want to move into after a decade in the service industry. I’m not particularly interested in anything, never have been, but I can find satisfaction in doing any job well, working as part of a team. I am inclined to move into tech, for the earning potential, but 1) I have no idea how to figure out what the day to day of these jobs is like and 2) the networking groups that I’d like to be involved with hold all their events in the middle of the day and I currently have a 9-5 that I can’t just walk away from all the time. It mystifies me that they do this – is there an assumption that anyone pivoting to tech is already at a certain level that allows for that kind of schedule flexibility? It feels like a weird gatekeeping move. Not sure I have a question, just frustrated.

    1. Iron Man*

      Yes, many desk Jobs have a lot of flexibility. It isn’t intentional. You can ask for early or later interviews.

      Have you considered any online certifications? Reddit can help.

    2. Marigold*

      “Tech” is an extremely broad field. What jobs are you thinking of when you say “move into tech”? Engineer? Computer repair? IT? Mechanical designer? Technical writer? QA/testing? Installer of solar panels? Even customer support for a tech product
      What’s your background? How much training and education would you need?

      You could contact your local community college and set up an appointment with someone who can give you an overview of the kinds of jobs in “tech” that wouldn’t need a 4-year degree, and what would be involved in working toward them.

  69. Frustrated Freelancer*

    Soooo, due to the queens death, and various events being cancelled, my work has been cancelled/postponed. As a freelancer, if I don’t do the work I don’t get paid. And although I will be offered future rescheduled dates, I probably won’t be available as I am starting a masters in two weeks. I don’t think there’s anything I can do, but I am very frustrated that this display of mourning is having a real impact on my income (3 days of wages)

    1. KayDeeAye*

      Yes, there’s a thread above in which people are talking about this at some length. Search for a thread started by Crackerjack.

      And good luck! It sounds very frustrating.

  70. Nervous New Grad*

    Low stakes question, just about a matter of optics. I’m going on a week-long vacation next week, would it look bad if I made a time off request (for time off next month) as soon as I got back?

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      It’s all about context. How long you’ve been at this job, your overall relationship with your manager, if someone needs to provide coverage for you, how long the next PTO request will be for, and how far away it is.

    3. LizB*

      I pretty much just put in PTO requests as soon as I know I’ll need the time off. Having advance notice is almost always better. I think as long as your actual PTO usage is reasonable within your company culture, when you make the requests isn’t going to cause an optics issue.

    4. KayDeeAye*

      I just turned in SEVERAL vacation requests at once a few weeks ago – a few days in August, a few in September, a week+ in October and a few days in November. So I vote for scheduling them as soon as you find out when you want them.

  71. cardigarden*

    Okay, so I manage a particular Junior Chocolate Teapot Maker (not the best analogy but I’ll go with it) who is… a challenge. He is 25+ years in the role by his own choice. We don’t necessarily have a construction quota, but there’s definitely an established range for pacing. Say, the conservative range is 30 teapots and someone having a good day can do 40, and this includes people on their first day of teapot making. Over the past two years, I’ve had to seriously work with him because he was only finishing 3 a day due to lengthy social calls and watching videos instead of working. Ultimately, HR got involved because of how he reacted, but after that intervention, his pace is at the expected standard (thanks to the lack of distractions). HR is happy and my company is happy.

    However. The reactive behavior that got HR involved in the first place is still present, particularly when I have to have a “hey so what happened here?” conversation. I document all of those incidents and flag them as ongoing concerns, but so long as production numbers are where they should be, this alternately moves either to the back burner or off the stove entirely.

    Any suggestions on what I should do?

    1. NaoNao*

      I’d find a way to figure out how the reactive behavior is impacting work, if it is. Can you measure or otherwise pinpoint how it’s effecting your own production or frame it differently?

      I will say if this person’s figured out how to get up to 30 teapots from 3 after a stern talking to but is still a bit of a PITA that seems relatively minor, and maybe just leave them be and circumvent them so the reactive behavior doesn’t have a chance to occur?

    2. Iron Man*

      Keep documenting.

      You can also look up methods to coach people into better behavior or emotional regulation techniques.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I can’t tell what triggers the “what happened here” conversations.

      If he is hitting productivity levels but his outputs are not up to quality then he has failed to hit productivity levels.

      Example. I do 30 teapots. But you find that there are errors in 15 of them. That means that I have only done 15 teapots. Which means I have NOT hit productivity levels.

      This gets murkier if say he is supposed to say handle 30 customer complaints a day. If 15 people slammed the phone down while speaking to him then he has failed on 15 complaints.

      Anything that he has to go back in on later, or someone else has to clean up does not count toward productivity because ….it’s not productive. It’s sort of a compliant retaliation. Passive-aggressive.

      Somehow you will have to show how his actions are undermining business progress. It’s a subtly that it sounds like your company does not understand. You will need to draw pictures of apples to show 2 apples plus 2 apples equals 4 apples. This requires a very high level of patience on your part. You may have to keep track of the amount of time spent catching and correcting all these incidents. Maybe there are other impacts such as angry customers or angry cohorts who quit because of him. Note these reactions also.

      If there are others working under you maybe you can make a chart showing how many times you have to address issues with them vs how many times you have to address issues with him.

      If you have a QC department maybe you can befriend them and they can help you.

      Get buy in from your boss. If you know that you spend x hours per day/week fixing his work you can ask your boss what they think you should do.

    4. Anon for This*

      In a similar situation I worked very closely with HR and, after any incident I documented and alerted HR that “Fergus may be inbound with another complaint – here is what happened.” It helped manage the issue.

  72. LadyVet*

    Didn’t see anything that looked relevant in the archives; occasional reader but new poster:

    I had a second interview for a position lately, with three colleagues of the person who would have been my supervisor. I sent thank-yous to each, individualizing them based on questions each person asked. One of them them sent such a lovely response, giving three reasons I’d be a great addition to the team.

    And then about two weeks later I was told they went with someone else.

    Obviously I should keep in touch with the person who thinks I’m great, but I will admit I took a couple weeks to nurse my wounds.

    1. Iron Man*

      It sucks. My last job search was brutal, and the very kind but ultimate rejections still stung fierce.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Business “keep in touch” is very different from social “keep in touch.” So a few weeks before getting in touch is hardly noticeable in the business realm. If the person who reached out kindly is on LinkedIn, connect with them there, and don’t worry about not reaching out sooner.

  73. Alice*

    My great-grand boss: “the applicant pools are not good at all for the job postings we’ve done lately.”
    Our salary bands are lower than competitors’. Our raises don’t keep up with inflation. We require more in-person work than business needs warrant, in open offices, because upper management wants our spaces to “feel dynamic.” And what COVID safety policies remain are based on the incorrect belief that it spreads by droplets instead of being airborne.
    Maybe the failed searches will lead to improvements. :)

  74. Down the rabbit hole*

    Feeling really lost and fed up. I’m about 9 months into a new job and it’s not getting any better. There’s still almost no work, zero job training, and no guidance for all the different systems and I feel like I’m sitting here waiting to be fired. I get good reviews on my work and my quick responsiveness but it doesn’t feel deserved. I’ve worked 90 minutes over the 40 hours I’ve spent at my laptop this week. I look for tasks and try to take initiative but I am limited on what I have access to.

    I’ve been proactive and created a monthly meeting with everyone else with a similar title and responsibilities and that’s the only direction most of us get even though the other 7 people seem to have 30+ hours of work to do every week. I network internally and suggest things to my manager that could be helpful for the team but get almost no backing when I try to implement them. I’ve put organization systems in place to track deadlines and important company events.

    It’s such a disorganized mess but it could just be that I’m a bad fit.

    I’ve started job hunting again and I’m feeling so defeated. This was supposed to be the role that got me into a new field and career path. I’m getting paid 6-figures to do almost nothing and it doesn’t sit well with me. I don’t even have good experience to relay into an updated resume so I feel like even if I got to the interview stage I would struggle or have to exaggerate my experiences.

    I’m spending my day looking into micro masters programs and other certifications just to have something to occupy my time and continue my development.

    Has anyone been able to recover and grow at a company when it feels like your position isn’t even needed?

    1. Iron Man*

      Have you brought this up with your manager?

      Some times it is as simple as saying “boss, I need more work to do. How can I help the team?”

    2. LizB*

      It doesn’t sound like you’re doing anything wrong! How do the other 7 people with your title get their work?

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It’s a basic human need to make a contribution. This need is on a par with food and water, it’s that basic. If you want you can google around to find out more on this topic about people who are not able to contribute developing all kinds of problems. I’d die on the inside. It would be irrelevant that I was making 6 figures. This is all to validate, yeah, I believe you when you say this is breaking you on the inside- because it definitely can break any human being.

      Have you asked any of the seven others what their thoughts are?

      Can you bring your own device to work and job hunt? smh. It’s almost like they are asking for this type of thing to happen.

      Who hired you, is there an HR? Can you go back to them and tell them what the problem is?

      It almost feels to me like the boss is blocking your path here. It may or may not be deliberate. I can’t tell. Are there other jobs posted within the company that you could apply for?

      It’s within my personality to say something. I told one boss if there was nothing for me to do I would rather go home. You should have seen their eyes pop. Not everyone can say this which is probably a good thing.

      Maybe you could ask to go down to PT. Then you can legitimately job hunt each afternoon from home. Here’s my punchline if it were me, “I gave them 9 months to sort themselves out, they didn’t. I have to move on because I am dying on the inside. I have to leave while I still have my health.”

  75. Weaponized Pumpkin*

    Well, this is exciting:

    From the LA Times:
    California lawmakers on Tuesday passed legislation requiring all employers based or hiring in the state to post salary ranges on all job listings. The law will also require California-based companies with more than 100 employees to show their median gender and racial pay gaps — a first for a U.S. state.

    The bill will head to Gov. Gavin Newsom, who has until Sept. 30 to sign or veto it. He hasn’t yet expressed a position and didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment. If he signs it, the law would affect some of the biggest U.S. companies, including Meta Platforms Inc., Alphabet Inc. and Walt Disney Co. In recent years, more states have adopted an array of transparency laws to fight the stubborn gender and racial pay gaps.

    Women who work full time earn about 83% of what men do, according to U.S. Census Bureau data — a figure that hasn’t budged much in recent years. Black women and Latinas earn less, on average, than their white counterparts.

    If signed by Newsom, California would join Colorado, New York City and Washington state in adopting the job-posting requirement. Only Colorado’s law is in effect; New York City-based employers will have to list pay ranges starting Nov. 1. The New York state Legislature also passed a similar bill that’s awaiting Gov. Kathy Hochul’s signature.

    If the California and New York governors, who are both Democrats, sign the pending laws, almost a quarter of the U.S. population will live in states with such salary disclosure requirements.

    2. Girasol*

      My (California) company did that voluntarily. Publishing numbers that showed discrimination really helped motivate the company to make work fairer. They also published the ratios of men/women and whites/other races as individual contributors and as managers, so everyone could see if minorities were being promoted or held back. That was very helpful too. It led to real change.

    3. Roland*

      Really great for people outside those states too, depending on industry. This will pretty much cover all remote software jobs unless they want to shoot themselves in the foot by excluding CA and WA.

  76. litigationatsteak*

    I left an anonymous unflattering review of a local business I worked for on one of those job review sites. The owner read it and got very mad and defensive at the review saying it was full of lies, “knew” who wrote it, and is threatening litigation. Could this happen or is this person making it all up.

    1. LadyVet*

      I would think the truth will set you free in this. If you’re the only person who would have the specific knowledge that you wrote about, it probably would be easy to figure out it was you, but litigation would be a waste of time if you have any evidence backing what you said.

    2. PollyQ*

      Theoretically? Sure, in the US anyone could sue over anything. But it’s unlikely that that the site will even give up your info, and as long as you limited your review to true facts & opinions, then there’s nothing actionable. IF by some bizarre chance, you are actually sued, then you do need to respond or the owner could win the suit by default, but (NAL) me thinks the odds of that happening are vanishingly small, and I wouldn’t give it a second thought.

    3. RagingADHD*

      A complete stranger could sue you tomorrow for looking at them cross eyed. Doesn’t mean they have a case.

      Unless the owner enjoys DIY paperwork, it is extremely unlikely that any lawyer would take an unwinnable case. There are a number of elements that have to be satisfied to make a case for defamation, and such reviews are very unlikely to meet them.

    4. Adrian*

      Also, if the owner did sue, they’d be the one officially confirming they’re the business in question.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If it’s a small biz then they probably do not have the resources to litigate.

      Not much consolation, but I always think, the bigger the reaction I provoke the more on target I am. So I’d have to guess that you were right on target.

      For your own use, I would assume he knows you wrote it and take the job off your resume. People say these types of things more and more now, and what it really telegraphs is how little they know about our laws and court systems.

      As just an ordinary person if I came across something like this and read the owner’s reaction, I would never in a thousand years consider applying there.

  77. Don't Throw Staplers*

    I’m a new manager and my two new hires are starting Wednesday. After 2 months on my own, I finally will have an actual department. I have been informed that they will spend the entire morning (3-4 hours) with HR. I’d like the afternoon to be more enjoyable because I can’t imagine spending that much time reviewing policies. **YAWN** Should I take them both to lunch together? Spend the day meeting other staff? Answering questions and reviewing expected training? Any fun ideas? I’m at a non-profit so no budget for welcoming new staff.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Taking them both to lunch together after a morning in HR will be a welcome reprieve for them. All of your suggestions for the afternoon (meeting staff, answering questions, reviewing expected training) are standard and good to do on the first day (and no later than the first week).

      1. Alice*

        I think lunch is a great idea but depending on their approach to COVID safety you should at least offer an outdoors lunch option, and a rain check if it, well, rains. Or is boiling hot or whatever.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Make sure that you have an agenda planned and printed out for the first week or two. Include all of the onboarding steps so that they can check them off (like ID badges or setting up email or whatever). Set up times that they can meet other staff members and learn about what everyone does.

      Make sure their new workspaces are clean and have basic office supplies. Show them where to get additional supplies and let them know any rules about that sort of thing.

      Taking them to lunch is awesome – but ask early in the day if that works well for them. You don’t know yet if they need quiet time at lunch or have food restrictions that would be hard to pivot on at 11:30. Be willing to push the “get to know you chat” to a different time of day — maybe over coffee in the afternoon or whatever.

      The onboarding agenda is the key thing — let them know what to expect, and demonstrate that you’re interested in them enough to have invested some planning time into them.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The first thing I think of is new job jitters. I like to know where my workspace is, where the bathroom is and so on. I had to tell my crew which door to use, where to keep their stuff and where to park.
      Don’t miss the basics. I think I’d wait until day 2 to introduce them to people especially since they sat with HR all morning. (??? UGH. I remember sitting with HR, they blindsided me with a bunch of stuff including a document where I promised not to write a book. It was at that moment, I realized this may not be the job for me.)

      While I understand the thought of making it fun, I don’t recommend it. Be informative, answer questions, walk around with them if the place is of any size. You can keep the conversation light and happy the whole time and I think that would be enough for most people to feel they had a positive experience.

      One thing I did that helped me, was to realize that probably most of what I said the first day would be forgotten. And that goes back to new job jitters. Write down the really important things. Fully expect them to ask you again, they will probably hear you the second time.

      If you take them to lunch will that be a paid lunch? Should it be? You might want to consider sending them to lunch after the HR meeting then planning on a longer working “coffee break” in the afternoon to wind down the day and answer anything you have not covered after lunch.
      Training is tiring. I always said, my “on switch” had to stay on. But they get tired to0. Build time into your daily plan that somehow everyone gets a rest from training and starts to do some actual work.

  78. Chirpy*

    Trying to figure out potential new jobs (and fields, there’s not obvious things that fit my skills that don’t have *extremely* limited job opportunities) to apply to gives me overwhelming anxiety, and I think therapy would be really good, but I need a better job so I can afford therapy and there’s no free options available (either locally or time-wise)…and I can’t afford to take time off from work either…

    2. Hlao-roo*

      This Ask the Readers question may give you some ideas on how to tackle job-searching when you’re starting in such an open-ended place:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2022/04/how-do-you-learn-what-types-of-jobs-exist.html

      You may also find some good ideas from this post:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2022/08/what-fields-have-hiring-booms-right-now.html

      I don’t know how your anxiety manifests, but I think it’s generally a good idea to give yourself some structure and some achievable goals.

      The broad steps are:
      – find jobs/fields that are interesting to you
      – find specific job ads for those jobs/fields
      – update/tailor resume for job ad
      – write cover letter
      – apply

      Decide on a set time to spend a certain number of days a week to work on your job search. Could be as much as an hour every day, could be 30 minutes one day a week. Whatever works for you. Best of luck in your search!

      1. Chirpy*

        Those first two are the problems. Either I wade through so many job listings it’s paralyzing trying to pare them down, or something I would love to do but don’t have the skills they’re looking for (and can’t get, going back to school is not an option), both of which which can send me into a panic attack or just shut down in frustration.

        I have a degree that’s too broad for its field, a minor and work experience in a different field with basically zero jobs, and a really assorted set of skills. And the industry I am most interested in does not have the jobs or stability I want, so there’s no point in that one.

        I can’t find a field, basically, so I can’t find the job openings to even start.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          If I were in your shoes, I would tackle the first two steps like this:

          Find jobs/fields–I would tell myself to read the “how do I find what types of jobs exist” post for 10 minutes or until I found one promising strategy/job suggestion/field suggestion. Repeat for as many days as I need to have a small list of strategies/jobs/fields. If I mostly took away strategies from that post, I would then switch to spending 10 minutes a day following one or another of the strategies to build a list of jobs/fields. If you need to, I would set a timer for 10 minutes and stop when it goes off. I would rather stop sooner and get less done each day than continue on until I get so frustrated I have to put the whole job search on hold for several days.

          For finding specific job ads–I would take the list of job titles/fields and start browsing Indeed. I would set the same limit of browse until I find one job ad that looks promising or until the 10 minute timer goes off, whichever comes first.

          Hopefully building a list slowly and stopping at 10 minutes a day will minimize the frustration and anxiety. I know even that still might not be enough.

    3. Iron Man*

      What skills and experience do you have? Not enough info to go on here.

      In terms of therapy, have you tried your local library for self help books?

      1. Chirpy*

        self help books don’t help, they just give me more anxiety, that now I know exactly how much I could use help and why but not actually being able to implement it on my own.

        I do really think I need an actual professional human outside of my own head to talk to.

    4. TechWorker*

      What sort of things are you looking for? What are your skills? What do you enjoy? The AAM crowd probably have just as good advice as the average friendship group if not better :p

      Therapy wise sometimes online therapy can be cheaper/easier to access – have you looked at that option?

      1. Chirpy*

        I don’t even know, that’s my problem. I seriously have such a wide range of random skills/ experience that I know a little of everything but I’m not qualified for anything. at least nothing that will pay me enough to live on.

        1. TechWorker*

          This is super generic advice – but you could consider a temp agency? It can be a good route out of retail and you might find that those disparate skills are really useful for ‘picking things up quickly’.

          If you’re not sure what you want to do as well then it might be a good route to trying a little of lots of things.

      2. Chirpy*

        I haven’t found any online therapy options that would work (and I really can’t afford it, even working full time i barely make enough money to live on.) I also have very few “business hours” available.

    5. LizB*

      Does current job have an EAP (Employee Assistance Program) as part of their benefits? Often those will provide a few free therapy sessions. Or, if you have a family member who has one, their EAP might allow for their family members to also access that benefit.

  79. just a random teacher*

    Doers anyone know of an accredited university that offers online, graduate-credit courses that would teach me how to use Adobe products?

    My district will pay tuition reimbursement for work-related graduate credits (I also get a pay raise for having more graduate credits), and I really need to up my video-editing game in particular (but could also use a refresher in Photoshop, Illustrator, and such, I guess, although I’m better at figuring those out by clicking around because they’ve changed less in the 20-30 years since I last took a class in them , video editing has just changed more in 20 years than the rest of the suite).

      1. just a random teacher*

        Undergrad classes won’t count for reimbursement or salary advancement, unfortunately. Sometimes schools will have not-toward-a-particular-degree grad-level classes specifically for teachers because of this. I’ve taken other in-person summer school classes learning how to use other software for grad credit through local schools where I live, but now I really need to learn this software before next summer so I need something online or evenings/weekends rather than summer when most of these kinds of classes run.

    2. seps*

      I looked for something similar 5-10 years ago and all I could come up with were community college courses. It was really frustrating!

  80. Kiwiapple*

    I am currently pregnant and my work contract ends in December when I will be on leave. We are undergoing a restructure and my contract depends on the outcome of it so at the moment I am approaching this as if I will have no job.

    I will be on parental leave until May 2023 so I will have a significant gap in my work history.

    How should I approach the gap when I start job hunting again? I’m not sure I really want to say I am a new parent. Not working isn’t an option. Help/advice appreciated!

    1. Iron Man*

      I think Alison has some good posts about this, it is a common question.

      Generally, just stating that you stopped to have kids is an option. I haven’t held it against female hires and have helped hire one in the past.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Can you say something along the lines of “I took time off to deal with a family situation, and now I am looking forward to getting back to work.”

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      You can always go vague – “dealing with health issues” or “dealing with family issues” (both true!). They ask why the gap, you respond “I was dealing with some health issues that have since been resolved, and I’m excited to get back to work”, or whatever feels most true to you.

      You can also blame the restructure with no reference to your personal need for time off. It looks like you’ll only have a gap of 5 months, so some companies might not even ask.

    4. Hillary*

      Keep it brief – my contract ended and I was lucky to be able to take a break. I’m excited to get back into work now.

      Gaps are much less of an issue than they used to be. My employer likes hearing that people take time for themselves – it means they’re not going to be burned out when they start with us.

    5. WellRed*

      I don’t see this as a significant gap, nor do I think it’s a bad thing to say you were on parental leave. I see others suggesting a “ health or family thing” but if they are going to have an issue with one type of leave they’ll have it with another. Especially since you may need grace and flexibility upon returning to work. Babies and their needs are kind of hard to hide. Congratulations!

  81. AMooseOrAGoose*

    Do any commenters have experience moving from tech to another field? I’m a disillusioned software developer, and am unsure about what other jobs are out there.
    I’m looking for something that:
    – uses some of the same analytical thinking (to give a board game analogy: less chess, more rushhour)
    – has a large degree of autonomy
    – ideally feels meaningful

    I get consistently good feedback on my systems thinking and creative problem-solving, and tend to assume a fair bit of responsibility (I’ve never been one to sit back and wait to be told what to do). However this has yet to translate into the desired autonomy or any real authority. I’ve been struggling lately to summon up much motivation.

    I’ve been thinking some sort of trainer/instructor position might fit the bill? Or something in logistics? I am open to going back to school.

    Thanks in advance for any advice or suggestions.

    1. Iron Man*

      Are you interested in data analysis work? Strong need from industry for tech guys who do some stats.

      1. AMooseOrAGoose*

        Thanks for the suggestion, unfortunately stats never quite seem to click for me, despite a math background.

        Also, I’d avoid saying ‘tech guys’ – not everyone in tech is a guy. ‘Folks’ works better.

        2. Wisteria*

          I’ve been through 3 data science/machine learning certificates now, one from edX, two from employers. All 3 started with a stats course. 0/3 ever used any actual statistics. Andrew Ng’s class on Coursera doesn’t even cover stats anymore.

    2. SpeedyTurtle*

      Maybe software architect or r&d? I always get the sense those folks just make their own schedules as they tinker away on their projects

      1. TechWorker*

        Software architect is (at least where I’ve worked) not so much a different field from software developer but rather a promotion.

        I don’t have many suggestions sorry – my personal ‘plan’ for if software becomes too much is to look into private school teaching. Teaching is vastly underpaid and overworked… but it’s better at private schools (I believe) and though it would still be a pay cut I would hope it would be a lower stress lifestyle.

        In general – I’m not saying software is perfect – but I think we are relatively ‘overpaid’ for the hours and amount of stress. I don’t know where you work now but it could be worth staying in software but seeking a company with a better culture or one that rewards your skills more.

        1. AMooseOrAGoose*

          Agreed about the pay, I imagine any move away from tech would involve a pay cut.

          I feel like every one of my friends in STEM has at some point considered becoming a high school teacher. It ticks the ‘autonomy’ box, but yeah, pay & stress. Though public school teachers have a strong union where I am, so actually have slightly higher pay and more benefits than private school teachers (but requires a B.Ed, while private school doesn’t)

          I do enjoy mentoring & tutoring, so have being trying to research other instructor or instructional-design roles

          1. Not Patient Enough*

            Do the union jobs currently require a B.Ed? Due to the shortage of teachers right now, many states are authorizing emergency teaching certificates if you have a bachelors and a pulse. There’s a time frame for getting a B.Ed in my state, but it would, at least, be a way to try it out as a career without investing in the education first.

    3. Colette*

      Do you want to leave the tech field, or do you want to stop developing software? Those are different questions – all kinds of non-tech companies need software developers (insurance, government, retail, etc.)

      I’m a former software developer; since then, I’ve done tech support, customer support, business analysis, scrum master, software asset management and process development.

      1. AMooseOrAGoose*

        I’m hoping to stop developing software.

        Process development seems interesting, would you be willing to share more about how you got into it?

        1. Colette*

          Unfortunately, it was a complete accident, so I’m not sure how useful it will be! I was unemployed, so I took a role in executive customer service. After a couple of years, I moved to the group that took care of the call centre – they were overhauling how they graded calls, and needed someone to define the standards.

          After that, I moved to a different organization in software asset management, and built their processes as well.

    4. seps*

      I’m in research development/administration at an R1 institution, but I’ve historically worked with specific projects to scale them up and broaden their impact (versus being general support). I tell people my job is everything but the science. Navigating bureaucracy, building new processes/Frankensteining old processes to support a project, strategic financial management and forecasting (not accounting – thing basic budgeting, but with an eye toward the future and some funding source Tetris), connecting researchers to stakeholders, recognizing *great* research ideas and moving them forward. Systems thinking and creative problem-solving is my daily life (and I’m at a point in my career where I have tons of autonomy). All in close proximity to people using high level analytical skills – if I wanted to talk shop, I have plenty of opportunities, but it’s not part of my job, so I don’t have to if I don’t want to.

  82. Iron Man*

    Question on the optics of dinner and dancing at an industry conference most of my department (20+) is going to. I am a Junior Manager of a smaller team and a male in my 30s and on the Autism spectrum.

    The department is across two locations that largely do not interact in person due to distance.

    In particular, the issue is that I am a passable swing dancer and like to twirl women around. The last time I went to this conference, it was with only one other male colleague. I had a great time, twirled lots of ladies around, who all seemed to have had a good time.

    This time, with many female coworkers in attendance, I am concerned about the optics as a male manager potentially twirling around female coworkers.

    Is it rude if I don’t offer to twirl them around? What if they ask? What if one of my (female) reports asks? My boss is female, which seems like a no as well. Would management peers be okay?

    Am I over thinking this?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I would not ask to dance with anyone who reports to you (you’re above them in the hierarchy). If your autism makes it harder to pick up social cues you may not notice discomfort and they may feel like they cannot say no to you as you are their boss. If they ask you to dance I think that’s fine. Generally dancing with coworkers is a little weird.

      Can you join a swing dancing group and get your dancing in there instead?

      1. Iron Man*

        No swing dancing where I am. I teach my kids sometimes. Of course not dancing with my reports seems to be a given… it is more my boss(!) or coworker on another team that I am senior to that I unsure of.

      1. Iron Man*

        Turns out I do twirls, not spins. I know the right and left hand inside and outside twirls.

        https://youtu.be/0l-IrUpWEUI

        Has the basic idea of what I know how to do. Mostly beginner moves, but puts me ahead of about many guys on the dance floor.

        We aren’t talking the Tango with a rose in my mouth.

        1. PollyQ*

          We aren’t talking the Tango with a rose in my mouth.

          I am genuinely sorry to hear this, because if you did it, it would rocket to the top of all-time great AAM anecdotes, especially if the song cue was Tom Lehrer’s “Masochism Tango.”

          And I envy the rose
          That you held in your teeth, love
          With the thorns underneath, love
          Sticking into your gums.

          But I digress.

          IDK, those kinds of twirls seem pretty innocent to me and not exceptional within the bounds of social dancing. However, I do think DisneyChannelThis makes a good point about asking people who report to you dance at all. There could easily some power differential issues that would make some people feel a little awkward about turning you down.

          1. Iron Man*

            Thank you for the reply. Sorry to say I won’t be rocketing to the top of AAM’s best quotes of all time.

            Any thoughts on how to handle female coworkers from other teams?

            1. River Otter*

              I am used to the moves in the video being called “turns,” never twirls. But maybe terminology differs with different teachers!

              I would only ask peers and above to dance, including on other teams. If direct reports or equivalent ask you to dance, say yes (unless you don’t want to dance) and use open frame rather than closed frame. Actually, open frame at a professional dance is probably good practice regardless of rank.

    3. TechWorker*

      Yay for dancing! (I am also a passable swing dancer and I would love to find a dancer at parties!). I think as such my instinct on this could be off (a friend from work dances a bit of jive and we’ve danced, but in a situation where he also just danced with his wife and it’s clearly ‘not weird’) – and I go to dance socials and dance with anyone…

      Even with that… I might avoid dancing with a report, unless I knew they were also ‘into dancing’ and even then. Hmmn. If someone asks you to dance, I wouldn’t worry about it though, just keep it friendly (avoid too much close hold). Dancing with peers or folks from other teams – also fine.

    4. SereneScientist*

      Hello! Fellow swing dancer here: I would err on the side of not doing so unless your peers have expressed prior to the event. It is certainly fun but physical contact might be more than some folks are comfortable with declining in the moment.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Feel free to ask anyone who doesn’t work with you, as you did at the last conference. Feel free to ask peers.

      Feel free to dance with any coworkers (above or below you in the org chart) who ask you.

      If a coworker puts you in a situation where she is telling someone else to dance with you, “Hey Susan, you’ve got to dance with Iron Man, it’s so fun!” Then introduce a little break, just to make sure the new person doesn’t feel pressured.

      Make an excuse, like getting a fresh drink or going to the bathroom, and tell the new person to come find you later, if they want a turn.

      There’s nothing optically wrong with the dancing. You just want to avoid even the appearance of pressure.

  83. Rebecca*

    Small non-profit folks in the US, do your part time staff receive paid time off and if so what does that package look like? I’d like to advocate for myself to receive some sick leave, vacay time, and/or holidays and would like to know what is the norm for others. Thanks!

    1. KayDeeAye*

      The nonprofit I work for offers full benefits only to those who work 30 hours/week or more. People who work 20-29 hours/week qualify for participation in the insurance plan and in the 401K plan. I think you have to work at least 30 hours to qualify for sick leave, vacation and paid holidays, though.

      Which surprises me a little. I would have expected some sort of prorated structure for sick days and vacation days.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      we’re not a small nonprofit, but all our staff accrues PTO based on paid hours. The max accrual is based on 1.0 FTE, 80 hours per pay period, and if you get paid for fewer than 80 hours, whether that’s because you’re a part-timer or if you had unpaid time off, your accrual or the pay period is reduced proportionally. (The specification of paid hours rather than worked hours is because if I take a week of PTO, it still counts as paid hours even though it wasn’t worked hours, so I would still get my full accrual of PTO for that pay period. But someone who’s on unpaid leave and therefore not working OR getting paid is not accruing additional PTO.)

      Everybody at the same seniority level accrues the same amount of PTO per paid hour, so if you’re a 1.0 FTE you accrue the full max while if you’re a 0.5 you accrue half of the max. (I don’t actually know if someone who is a 0.5 FTE but occasionally works additional paid hours in a pay period accrues extra PTO with those extra hours or if they’re capped at half the amount of a 1.0?)

  84. MissGirl*

    I had a recruiter reach out to me but not about a specific position. Here’s the confusing message:

    “I came across your profile and wanted to see if you are open to investigating some different professional possibilities. Your background and skills made me think that some of the career paths So and So, one of our Career Ownership Coaches is connected to may be interesting for you to explore.

    Like a real estate agent, she does not charge for her services so there is no cost or obligation on your part. Would you be available for a brief 20-30 min call next week, for Karen to learn what you are looking for?”

    What does this mean? Is this just a recruiter wanting to have me in her pocket for future positions? If so, has anyone had a good experience with this? I’ve only heard of bad ones like yesterday’s update. They keep pushing you for positions you’re not right for to get their commission.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      This sounds like a scam/sales pitch. After meeting with her you’ll find out it costs $$$ to continue.

    2. Annie Mouse*

      This sounds odd. I would ask if they have a specific job in mind, and to please send the job description.

    4. voluptuousfire*

      It’s a scam pitch trying to get you to sign up for career coaching. Just ignore. No “recruiter” is going to reach out to you about different career paths. A few different roles they have open, yes but not different career paths.

    5. RagingADHD*

      This is a sales message. They give you a “consultation” to sign you up for a paid package of coaching.

  85. Flowers*

    No questions this time, just want to share something that just happened –

    I was chatting with one of the partners – he was the one who interviewed me and hired me. We chatted for a bit about work and he asked how I was doing, and if I’m comfortable, getting the hang of things, working with people etc. I said I was definitely comfortable, feeling good. Well he told me that last week I did a really great job on an assignment and the partner I report to actually sent out an email to the other partners and praised it.

    I had no idea he had done that! Hiring partner was really positive and happy about that and I was surprised and happy too.

    It’s been a really rough week and I needed this win today!

  86. PassThePeasPlease*

    Sooo I have a job offer in hand with a substantial pay raise and similar but not the same work and I brought it up to my current company where my boss is looking into the counter offer (she is supportive but will not be involved in the decision to counter).

    One the one hand I really like my current company and the only issue is truly the money (they have been dragging out the process since my review in April) but on the other the offer from the new company comes with a raise, fully paid benefits, a discretionary bonus and RSUs. I’m torn and worried that if I put off getting back to the new company with the offer for too long I might have the offer rescinded.

    Did anyone take a counter offer and it worked out? I know the prevailing sentiment on AMM is don’t take a counter but what if the issue is only money related?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      They’ve been dragging out the raise since April. They’re just not into you enough.

      Take the new job.

    2. Opal*

      Money related is plenty reason to go. Your current employer has had months to sort out your raise if they really wanted to retain you. And now they know you are looking elsewhere, you’re at risk of being perceived as less committed, and thus potentially could be the first one let go in future/be given less important projects/etc.

      Take the other offer.

    3. Can't think of a funny name*

      I was in the same position earlier this year…only issue was money…I told my boss what I could make at new company …he couldn’t match the full amount but b/c current job is full WFH and new job was full office, I took the counter…no regrets. (I actually declined the first counter offer but he came back with a much stronger one).

  87. LCH*

    Having a hard time coming up with an answer to the interview question: How do you deal with competing priorities? If two projects, on top of your current one, are dropped into your lap at the same time and said they need to be done now, how do you handle that?

    Generally they want to know about my former experience with this, but I can’t think of anything. It feels like something where I would need more information to proceed?

    1. LCH*

      Ideas: ask for clarification on the definition of “now”; the one from the more senior person gets done first; if both people are equally senior, then what?; does either item have financial implications?

      1. Adrian*

        If the people are equally senior, their projects similar and neither one will budge, then they engage in a log rolling contest and you do the winner’s project first. :-)

    2. ThatGirl*

      I’ve answered this question along these lines:

      “well, if I knew I could knock one of them out quickly, I would probably do that one first. If I wasn’t sure, or if I knew they would both take some time, I would probably ask my manager for clarification on which was the top priority.”

    3. BellyButton*

      “I would need more information to procced” That is exactly what they want to know. What information are you looking for and who do you go to get that information from.

      “I would first assess all of the projects to make sure I understand them fully and what the expectations are and a rough timeline of how long each will take. If I am still not sure which will take priority I would loop in my manager to let them know my assessment and ask for their guidenance while giving my opinions on length of time and…. “

    4. Gracely*

      If the consequences for each project are similar, I’d pick the one that can be finished more quickly. If the time frame is similar, I’d choose the one that is either going to impact the most people, the most senior person, or have the biggest financial impact, depending on what my manager has said the priority is.

    5. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      If no one else can provide priorities by deadline and work on the one with the closest deadline.

      If that’s not a productive way to decide between them, I prioritize them by what I can complete. E.g. if A has a 75% chance of meeting the deadline, B has a 40% chance, and C has a 15% chance, I do the projects in that order. That maximizes my odds of delivering *something* by its deadline, and some output is easier to defend than none in my experience.

      If that prioritization isn’t productive, I do them in descending order of difficulty (e.g. Hardest, easy, easiest). That way, I’m not as hampered by energy/resources/time/motivation becoming more scarce, and I expect I’ll have an easier time finding help with the easy work than I will the harder work.

      Of course, if the stakeholders can prioritize their needs for me, I simply honor that prioritization. No sense owning decisions I don’t need to.

  88. Queen Ruby*

    I’m not sure if what I’m dealing with is imposter syndrome or not, but I could use some advice.
    I started my job 2 months ago, and I work with the nicest, smartest, most professional people I’ve ever encountered. But I think I’ve worked at enough places that weren’t as professional and it’s impacting me now. I make little mistakes (srsly, nothing dire) and when corrected, it’s a *head-palm* moment. Like of course! It makes perfect sense! Why didn’t I think of that before I did it?
    I’m 20 years into my career – it’s not like the work world is new to me! And I know I’m being overly sensitive to feedback. My coworkers are only trying to help; they truly are genuinely good people who care about doing their jobs well and making sure they support their coworkers so everyone succeeds. They’re not nitpicking, just trying to teach me the best way to do things.
    So I guess my question is… how do I stop making these stupid little mistakes? I should know better, and somewhere in my brain, I do know better. I guess I’m just not used to this kind of environment, and I’m traumatized by my last job (if you want, search for “professional hours”, that’s me). Having coworkers who just always seem to know exactly the right thing to do is new to me, sadly. And it’s making me feel totally inadequate, especially when I totally understand my mistakes once they’re pointed out and tend to learn and not repeat them.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I totally understand my mistakes once they’re pointed out and tend to learn and not repeat them.

      This is important. Everyone makes mistakes. How we respond to mistakes counts for so, so much (not everything, but a lot) and you are responding in the best way. Well, I’m going to amend that a little bit. It sounds like you are responding in the best way externally. Graciously thank the coworkers who point out the mistakes, make an effort to understand what the mistake is and how you made it, ensure you don’t repeat the same mistake. All great. It also sounds like the way you respond internally could be better.

      This may be a time for “treat yourself like you would treat your friends.” Would you ever tell a friend “why do you keep making mistakes at work? you’re worthless, you’re going to be fired?” Of course not! You would tell a friend “hey, we all make mistakes. Learning from our mistakes is how we grow. No one’s perfect, so you can’t expect yourself to be either. Do your best to correct your mistake and [make a note/process/whatever] so it doesn’t happen again, then stop dwelling on it.” That’s what you need to tell yourself when you make a mistake. If this feels like a bigger problem then just adjusting your internal monologue, maybe seek out some therapy to unpack your experiences from your previous job.

    2. KayDeeAye*

      Ohhhh, I remember that letter (and somehow or other I missed the update)! So glad you’re out of there.

      Look, you’re dealing with some trauma here, I’d say, so allow yourself some grace. If you’re learning from your mistakes and not making too many of them again, you’re doing great!

      As for how not to make them in the first place, what I do when I’m learning something new is to take notes, sooooooo many notes (perhaps with screenshots, if applicable). I may not even consult them that often, but just the process of writing them down helps me remember.

      And also remember that your coworkers didn’t always know “exactly the right thing to do.” They had to learn, too.

    3. PollyQ*

      You’re only 2 months into a new job–of course you’re making mistakes! That’s what humans do, and you seem to be learning from them. Your co-workers only know how to do “exactly the right thing” because they’ve worked there longer and have already made their newbie mistakes. Just keep paying attention, and I predict that by month six, you’ll be making many fewer “stupid little” mistakes. (But not none, because you’ll still be human!)

  89. Anon for this one*

    I’m being recruited for a senior leadership role at a small company that is similar to where I am currently (in terms of position, company size, industry). Glassdoor reviews are … either super bad or toxically positive (imagine someone saying all the bad reviews are complainers and that is part of their positive review).

    My role would be talent and culture – and I have curated a list of questions for the CEO and other C Suite. Assuming they pass muster on their commitment to change, cultural shifts etc – what are some things you would want to see a new senior employee in this role do or not do in their first three months (if you were an employee of this company).

    1. KayDeeAye*

      If you can’t find a real, live former employee to talk to who can confirm or deny what you’re seeing on Glassdoor, I’d take the most realistic reviews very seriously. It would take a LOT to make me believe in that commitment to change and agree to work there (assuming I had viable alternatives). In fact, I’m not sure they could convince me.

      But that’s not your question, I realize. How to convince the employees that there’s real change? The most visible (and possibly even most meaningful) change would be making sure the bad actors (the horrible supervisors, the lazy coworkers, whoever falls into the category of “Problem Area”) would have to be corrected or fired or forced into retirement. If the people who have made my working life difficult are still there doing their poisonous thing, I would have no faith that anything was ever going to change.

      1. anon for this one*

        Thanks for this – I appreciate it. Yes, I think ultimately it will be actions, not words that will show there is a change. I’m understandably nervous about coming in as an outsider to shake things up and want to be very careful and intentional about what steps I make, observing before jumping in with two feet, and also being realistic about what I can ultimately do. We’ll see!

      2. Cheezmouser*

        Agree. How committed are the executives to this change? Would they be willing to fire bad actors? What if the complaints are against a member of the C suite? My understanding is that culture starts at the top, so you may have to work with some of the problem actors themselves.

  90. Decisions Decisions*

    Facing a crossroads in my career progression – curious to hear which direction you would pick and why, or any advice (or other options) you have for me making the decision!

    Three quite different pathways to choose from:

    Path A: Stay at Current Workplace (late-stage startup environment; current independent contributor on track to Team Manager)
    Pros – Lots of opportunity for skills expansion and career-boosting work; possibility of promotion in next year; gaining mid-level management experience currently due to open roles on my team; very stable position on team
    Cons – Underpaid compared to my (white male) co-workers; limited time off; poor benefits and work-life balance

    Path B: Change Companies (FAANG-level; independent contributor track)
    Pros – Recognizable workplace on resume; position is one I know I have the skills for and can thrive in; much more defined and establish processes, boundaries of work; drastically better work-life balance; Likely 25-30% pay increase (translates to about $20k – $100k increase depending on offer)
    Cons – Less glamorous projects; little opportunity to gain management experience in next few years; slightly less stability due to team size and oncoming recession

    Path C: Step out of workforce to finish degree (1-2 years)
    Pros: Gain recognized education credential (doctorate); types of careers I can apply for opens up drastically. Finish something I worked on for a really long time.
    Cons: Not really interested in many of the career paths it would give me at this point; Involves a move to an area of the country that I dislike; massive pay cut.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Taking Path C first, if you are not interested in the career paths the degree would open up then “types of careers I can apply for opens up drastically” is not really a pro.

      What I see in your “pro” columns are:
      – interesting projects at work
      – management experience at work
      – work-life balance
      – increased salary
      – completion of long-term personal project (classifying your degree this way because it does not sound like you would use the degree to further your career)

      When you think about your values and how you want to live your life, how would you rank the above items in importance? Stack up those five items in order from most to least important (to you) without thinking about Paths A, B, and C. Then look at how your rankings compare to the options you have. Which path fulfills your most important “pro”s? That’s the path to choose.

    2. Somehow_I_Manage*

      I’d go B by way of A.

      “A – I like everything about this place, except I’ve heard from recruiters, and I’m aware I’m not paid market value. I need to know if there’s opportunity here for me to bring my pay in line with the market?”

      Hopefully they get the memo, and you get paid. If they decline, or try to tell you they’re paying you in experience or something…head to B.

      A lot can change in the next few years, and the extra salary at B over 3-5 years is basically enough to buy you a house, and the work-life balance to enjoy it.

  91. noncommittal pseudonym*

    Let’s say I supervise the vanilla teapot department and my colleague, M, supervises the chocolate teapot department. I’m full-time and he’s part-time, as the chocolate teapot department is quite a bit smaller. We both report to the same boss. We recently got notified of a grant opportunity to improve teapot construction training. The way the grant was worded, it actually applies far more directly to vanilla teapots than chocolate. As I was thinking if I had the bandwidth to tackle the application process, as it had a VERY short turnaround time, M jumped in and said he wanted to submit one. There’s a limit of one per region, so we both couldn’t do it. I said OK, even though it was a bit more in my wheelhouse than his, but I’m not possessive. However, then I was asked by my boss to have the grant in my name, as M can’t submit a proposal on his own, as he’s part-time. OK, again, fine, and I’ll help, but I made it clear that this is M’s baby, he volunteered (I suspect because he’s old friends with our mutual great-grandboss, who brought up the opportunity), and I didn’t.

    Except now, he’s getting all demanding that I figure various things out, e.g., “Hey, NP you need to get me those spout construction estimates by tomorrow”, or “NP, you’re the contact. Figure this out.” Plus, I really dislike several of the decisions that he’s made, one in particular that I think could sink the proposal. I managed to shoot down another particular idea, which was beyond wacky. (Thankfully, grandboss was on the call and backed me. I wish I could figure out how to anonymize the idea sufficiently to share. You’d love it, it was bizarre and staggeringly cost-inefficient.)

    He’s also taken to being demanding and abrupt with a bunch of the support staff, who are extremely good at their jobs and just as extremely busy. I’m copied on the emails, and they make me full-body cringe. I’ve mentioned to my boss that I’m finding him increasingly rude, and got the “He’s extremely stressed about this quick turnaround and trying to get everything done. He’ll stop as soon as the proposal is in.” which is possibly true, but not a real excuse.

    So, I guess my question is – how much room do I have to push back on some of the nuttiness, given that the thing is being submitted under my name? I could spend the next week trying to clean the thing up, but I didn’t volunteer because I was worried about my other duties and this taking too much time. I don’t want something half-assed to be submitted under my name, but I also don’t have time to fix everything. Gah!

    1. acmx*

      Why can’t the part timer submit this? Is it against grant rules? If so, I’d be wary of letting the grant be in my name (actually, I wouldn’t want it in my name if I didn’t submit it).

      I’d put it onto your manager to ensure whatever is submitted under your name (and reputation) is up to par and tell your manager that you didn’t apply because you didn’t have time to do it yourself and definitely don’t have time to monitor part-timer’s work.

      1. WellRed*

        I also don’t understand this. Bigger picture, he’s being a pain but maybe he wants a full time role? I admit I’m having a hard time understanding how a department supervisor is only part time because it’s a smaller department.

        1. noncommittal pseudonym*

          He’s retired once from the industry, and is currently a consultant. He agreed to come back part-time to help out with this small department, effectively as a favor to great-grandboss. So, yeah, not your typical part-timer. He has no full-time direct reports.

    2. Cheezmouser*

      If he can’t submit it in his name, can he submit it in your shared boss’s name? Why does it have to be in your name? That’s the part I don’t get. Usually things like this flow upward, not lateral.

      I get that you already told him that he could use your name, but can you back out with something like, “It seems like you and I may have different approaches to this grant, and I’m not comfortable with something going out under my name that I don’t necessarily agree with/that I won’t be a part of, so can you please ask Boss if you could send it out under his name? Perhaps he could work with you on the application details.”

      Basically, make this your boss’s problem, not yours. It’s not your job to supervise M’s work or communication style, so let M work with your boss directly and maybe then your boss will see what’s going on.

  92. WhenIsRetirement?*

    This is late in the day so maybe I will have to repost next week – but has anyone ever had their company disappear from Glassdoor? We are just GONE. The company has suffered from negative reviews for years (for many valid reasons) and the only thing I can guess is that they just lawyered up and offered a whole bunch of money? They have a fair amount of cash. It is privately owned.

  93. NewbieNumberOne*

    I just started a new job and need to submit a resume to a third party (to serve as the representative of the new company on a committee). How do I describe my job functions/accomplishments when I haven’t really had any yet?

    1. WellRed*

      I’d list some of your primary duties in the new role: in charge of llama grooming, revamping social media accounts and representing Llama Corp at industry events. And of course include accomplishments from previous role that got you hired. Remember this resume isn’t to get you hired, it’s to tell people who you are and in what role.

    2. WellRed*

      Just describe the functions in the new role straight forwardly. This document isn’t to get you hired, it’s to introduce you to the other committee members. Highlight previous accomplishments of course.

  94. conundrum*

    A friend of mine sent me a job opening that is perfectly suited to my background and skills, with the floor of the wage range $20K higher than I make now. But when I calculate the value of a 40-mile each way commute every day compared to my current 2/3 work-from-home hybrid schedule with a 10-minute 3 mile commute each way …. I’m not sure if that is worth it. I think I’d be spending the whole raise on the cost of driving back and forth!

    In order to have the raise AND the cost of commuting (including a value for the time spent driving), I think I would need them to hire me at the middle of the range. I do bring 15-25 years of experience to a job that requires 3…

    On top of all of that, my current job offers 22 days of vacation per year, which do roll over up to another 16 days of vacation per year (and I’m usually sitting somewhere in that 16-day range, using vacation not to lose it at some times of year even after I take 2-3 weeks of vacation over that year). I also have more than 9 months of accumulated sick time that I would lose. I do not know what the vacation/benefits package at this new location would be, but I think it would be less than half of that — the standard in the type of organization I’d be looking at is 9-12 days/year PTO, not separate vacation and sick time.

    I would be moving from state government to county government.

    AAM friends, is this even worth considering? Is going from almost zero commute to 1.5+ hours per day and losing all the vacation time and sick time, worth the extra income? How do you make that decision?

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Two questions:

      Can/would you move closer to this job so it is not a 40 mi commute?

      Can you negotiate vacation time?

      If the answer to one or both of these questions is “yes,” apply to this job but approach the whole interview process as “they need to really ‘wow’ me in order for me to leave my current job.”

      If the answer to both these questions is “no,” then don’t even bother applying. It’s not the right opportunity for you.

      1. conundrum*

        The housing market in my area is — like many other areas — outrageous right now. I’m not sure I could afford the houses that are anywhere between my current location and the potential new job even at the higher wages. But I do need to up-size so my SO and I can move in together, eventually, so that IS a consideration that is part of the mix.

        Negotiating vacation time is the biggest question in my mind. And if they won’t, how much more money would I want to earn to make up for it.

        I think you’re right, they’d have to make me a really sweet offer to even consider taking it, but I do feel like I’m being sort of irresponsible to my own future self if I don’t at least find out what the possibility could be.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It’s a no brainer for me. The extra money would go to health issues from being so tired all the time. I was 13 miles from an old job. I had plenty of days where it was 2 hours to get into work and 2 hours to get home because of weather. It became a 12 hour day.

      Absolutely not with it.

      1. WellRed*

        Yeah that’s a huge commute. If other aspects of the package were similar to what you currently have, I’d consider it but if not, no way, unless there’s huge opportunities for growth ( which I doubt in county government).

        1. conundrum*

          The county job would BE the growth — there also isn’t any growth in my state job, and I’m woefully underpaid because the HR folks wouldn’t consider non-state-job comps when reviewing my position description last year. I did get a 20% pay and title bump at the beginning of this year, from that review, but my city and county government colleagues make the wages of the potential new job. If it was a job here in my city, it would be an absolutely no-brainer to change.

    4. PollyQ*

      Long commutes are the work of the devil! (says this commenter who used to have one) And unless there’s miraculously never any traffic on that route, 2 hours a day is a more reasonable estimate for 80 miles. For me, personally, I wouldn’t consider it to be worth it.

    5. seps*

      I commute 40 miles away TO a state government job. I used to commute half as much to a county government job. The benefits and steadiness is what keeps me doing the long commute. My benefits (healthcare especially)/time off are SO much better with state government (and it’s honestly a much less dysfunctional work environment than when I was in county government).

      That said, it doesn’t hurt to apply and learn what you can about the other job situation. There may be better benefits than you expect and the possibility of hybrid work.

      1. conundrum*

        You’ve kind of hit my problem on the nose – the benefits are so amazing (esp. after 25 years in the job), it is hard to imagine giving them up for a longer commute just for $$.

  95. Pass the Just-For-Men*

    Are Monthly Paydays Becoming The Norm?!?!

    Hi all. Posting this question for my wife (who I mention should be reading this); very recently it was announced that her organization (large government agency) is moving away from depositing pay bi-monthly on the first and 15th of the month, to just the first. Their CFO alluded to a growing number of organizations are moving to this format. He also said this helps out their understaffed (not for lack of trying, but that’s a post for a different thread) accounting department.

    Has anyone heard of this? Better question, is anyone at a place that made this switch? For those that had their pay frequency switched, did your take-home pay drop because it was taxed at a higher amount since the check was larger?

    While it’s going to be a huge inconvenience to only get paid once a month, we’re more concerned about her after tax deposit per month going down. Yeah, we may make it up at tax time, but that isn’t helpful in the day-to-day.

    Thank you everyone!

    1. Decidedly Me*

      The amount of taxes taken will be higher per check (since it’s two pay periods worth compared to now), but the same percentage as your tax bracket doesn’t change.

      To answer your other question, I’ve only had one job that paid monthly, which worked fine for me personally. I haven’t heard of any trend in this direction, though.

      1. Not A Racoon Keeper*

        Further to this, I’m pretty sure that taxes are calculated by orgs on a yearly basis, so it doubly shouldn’t matter. It’s not like “hey, it’s September, let’s have this employee pay x%”. It’s more like “we expect to pay this person $yy,yyy this year, and tax on that is z%, which we’ll divide over 12/24/26 paycheques, and take out $X each time”.

        IANA-accountant, and live outside the US, fwiw.

      2. Pass the Just-For-Men*

        Thank you for replying. We were concerned about the tax percentage changing because whenever we’ve gotten a bonus in our check, it’s taxed higher percentage-wise than normal, and our HR departments have always said it’s because the check was larger.

        1. LizB*

          Your HR departments were incorrect (and frankly I worry about their competence if they think that the amount of pay on an individual check determines the tax rates applied…) – bonuses are taxed at a higher rate because the IRS considers them a different type of income that has a different set of rates applied to it.

      3. Pass the Just-For-Men*

        Thank you for your response. I accidentally posted my initial reply to another reply in your thread, but I appreciate your insight.

    2. LizB*

      did your take-home pay drop because it was taxed at a higher amount since the check was larger?

      You shouldn’t have a problem with this, thankfully, because that’s not how taxes or percentages work. A higher amount will be taken out of each check, yes, but you’re taxed based on how much you make annually, not on how much each individual check is. Switching the frequency of your pay will not change your pay rate or your tax bracket.

      For example (with nice fake round numbers): If I’m taxed at 10% and I currently make $500 per paycheck, getting paid twice per month, then my taxes get deducted as $50 from my first paycheck and $50 from my second. My total take home pay for the month is $450 + $450 = $900, and my total tax deduction is $100.

      If my company then switches to paying me once a month, my paycheck is now $1000, and I get $100 dedicated in taxes from that single check. I’m still getting paid the same amount in a month, and paying the same taxes, it’s just all on one check instead of divided across two.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Some for-profit businesses (including one I worked at) are also switching to monthly pay checks. At the company I worked at, the reason as I understand it is that the company can hold on to the money longer and because it is a large company, they can earn a non-trivial amount of interest on that money by holding on to it for 15 more days every month.

      The switch at my company happened right around the time I got a raise and also made some adjustments in my retirement contributions so I don’t have a good before-and-after comparison, but Decidedly Me is correct that the amount of money withheld per check will be greater but the rate of withholding should remain the same.

      For example:
      Before, your wife earned $1,000 gross per paycheck, taxed at a rate of 12% so the money withheld from each paycheck is $1000*.12 = $120. The money deposited in the bank account every month was 2*1000*.88= $1760

      After, your wife earns $2,000 gross per paycheck, taxed at a rate of 12% so the money withheld from each paycheck is $2000*.12= $240. The money deposited in the bank account every month will be 1*2000*.88 = $1760

    4. Not So NewReader*

      She can look to see if she wants her withholding changed.

      I went the opposite way from once a month to every other week. It was such a relief. My job is part time, so I only had a slight up tick.

      Growing up my father got paid once a month. Household spending fluctuated accordingly. The money ran out before the month did. smh. It’s all about the comfort of the company or org. Everyone is doing it? What do we tell kids when they say that? “So if Joey went bridge diving you would too?” I’d tell them it’s too bad they can’t do their own thinking and can only mimic those around them. (uh maybe not say that, but yeah….)

    5. Academic glass half full*

      I used to get paid monthly. I now get paid bi-weekly. My preference is monthly.It shouldn’t make any difference but I found it easier to keep track of the deposits and deductions.

    6. HBJ*

      As others said, it doesn’t affect your taxes. We’ve had it in our household a couple of times. Didn’t make a lick of difference. It’s the same amount of money whether you get it as one check or spread out into biweekly, weekly or even daily checks.

    7. seps*

      I get paid monthly and have for the last ten years. Others have answered the tax question, but I wanted to address the inconvenience – keep in mind you can ask service providers to change the due date to a different day of the month. I try to have most of my bills, including what I put away for college savings and retirement, come out at the beginning of the month, shortly after pay day (everything is on auto-deposit/deduct), so I know how much I have left for discretionary categories.

  96. Jellyfish*

    This semester, I was asked rather last minute to take over a course as an adjunct professor on top of my full time job (academia, but not teaching). I agreed, and I’m getting compensated for it.

    It is so much work though! So this isn’t a question so much as an apology and gesture of respect to every decent teacher and professor I ever had. This is exhausting, and I don’t know how you do it full time. Grading, doing lessons, finding and assigning readings, grading, answering a constant stream of questions, grading, being slightly intimidated when some students are obviously smarter than me, and kinda wondering how others got this far into higher ed…

    It’s a lot. I feel vindicated in my deliberate choice not to pursue a professor position. I’ve always generally valued good teachers, but you have *all* my respect now.

    1. Liz in the Midwest*

      <3 <3 <3 thank you! I've been teaching in higher education for about 15 years and it does get easier, just cuz I've gotten more organized, streamlined my processes, etc.

    2. Irish Teacher*

      As a secondary school teacher, how I do it is largely by loving it. It IS a lot of work, especially learning support, as I don’t have a textbook to default to, in the “I’m tired today, they can just do the questions at the end of the chapter” sense. But most of it is fun and I even get excited about finding the perfect resource that will illustrate what I want to teach or that I know my students will enjoy/find interesting.

      I think it is the sort of job you really have to enjoy doing.

    3. NotBatman*

      The “last minute” part is the kicker, and you have all my sympathy. I’ve taught five unique classes at once with six months’ notice — chaotic but manageable. I’ve taught one class with a week’s advance notice — the stress gave me insomnia and daily headaches. I’ve found the good higher ed employers are the ones that start paying you July 1 for the semester that starts in September, because those are the ones who understand how the workload in academia actually goes.

    4. Silence*

      I work in eLearning and we estimate about 10hrs prep per hour of learning.
      The thing is if you have a subject area once you have done the prep you can just review/ update info so future semesters are a lot easier.

  97. Baffled, But Not Offended*

    This isn’t necessarily just a Work Thing, but I’ve never encountered this -outside- my current job, and I’m baffled on how to react:

    Short explanation: customers at my current job frequently end interactions with “Have a blessed day/evening/etc”. I’ve always lived and worked in the same general area, and no one has ever said this to me before this job! And it’s 3-4+ people a day! I’m not sure what exact demographical oddities have contributed to me never hearing this phrase until now, but I’m… lost. I’m not used to this phrase, and I’ve been replying with a slightly-awkward “you too” mainly. I garner -many- odd looks for this. If anyone is more used to this phrase: am I responding wrong? Perhaps it’s just my clearly-awkward tone? Even I can clearly tell how not-confident I am in my responses.

    I honestly feel the same way when people wish me a happy Christmas etc, since I am not Christian, but it’s somewhat easier to fake confidence in my “you too”s when I’m more sure it’s an okay response. After all, most people mean no harm by this, and probably just aren’t thinking that the random stranger they’re greeting might have a different religion. So long as no one’s being outright rude or anything about other religions, I’ll happily take the good intent behind the words, and return some of my own! (The temptation to wish the rude people a “blessed Yule” is certainly tempting, however…)

    If the/a correct answer to “have a blessed day” is “you too”, I’ll try to be a bit more confident to see if that helps! If I -shouldn’t- be saying that, though, I’d like to know how best to respond so that I can try to avoid the awkwardness. Customer interactions are a large part of my job, and the last thing I’d want is to have complaints or anything based on miscommunication!

    1. RagingADHD*

      This is common where I am, and it must be the tone that’s putting folks off. The normal response is “Thank you, you too!” In a warm / friendly tone.

      Just imagine they’re saying “wonderful” instead of “blessed.”

      If you want extra brownie points, you could throw in a hint of an “Aw,” at the beginning, like you were about to say, “Oh, how sweet.”

      “Aw, thank you! You too!”

      But that might feel like a bit too much if it doesn’t come naturally.

      1. WoodswomanWrites*

        Since this phrase doesn’t resonate with me personally, my response is to leave out the “you, too” part. Instead, I say “Thank you!” in a warm tone with a smile. That seems to effectively convey that I appreciate their good wishes without saying something that makes me feel awkward.

        1. Baffled, But Not Offended*

          Thank you both of you! I hope that the confidence that I’m not saying something “wrong” in response will help me come across better when I reply, and I might just stick with only the “thanks” part depending on the conversation leading up to that. :)

  98. N.J.*

    I’m a little late to the thread, but here goes. I have a second interview coming up in a few weeks for an assistant director position. It will involve a twenty minute presentation on setting up processes and systems for a relatively new program, with the focus on operationalizing all the activities and ideas involved. It needs to focus on consistency across multiple personnel and locations, as well as in a largely but not exclusively remote environment. I’m planning to approach it from a project management framework, as that is my background. Are there any big things I should be considering? Any research I should do related to operations management? This isn’t in a traditional business environment, it’s for a non-profit.

    1. seps*

      I had to do this for a similar position (AD of operations for a non-profit) and I did pretty much what you’re describing. I made sure to spend some time talking about my philosophy of approaching that type of work based on my educational background and lived experiences doing that kind of work. That meant I would present a process and back it up with the occasional anecdote that supported why I would choose this process. I ended with my “First 100 days” actions (I think there were three? Maybe five).

      Good luck!! (And also, I hope you’re not applying for my old job, it ended up being a total shitshow)

        1. seps*

          ::whispers:: my position was also a non profit tied to a university… they rearranged the job title/duties after I left so it sounded new… is the program brand new?? or is it 3-4 years old but they still SAY it’s new because they haven’t accomplished much?

  99. Wendy*

    Starting this coming week hours are being cut at the *major grocery store chain’s* fuel center I work at

    There are 4 fuel center employees

    The fulltime fuel center lead who is classified as fulltime
    The part-time fuel center assistant lead who is classified as part-time
    Me
    And an employee who only works 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. during the week and 4 hours on a Saturday since he has a fulltime job somewhere else

    But only my hours and the employee who only works 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. during the week and 4 hours on Saturday are being cut

    The assistant fuel center lead is still getting 40 hours a week

    I am also scheduled to work 3 hours on Monday

    Is it really worth it to work a 3 hour shift anywhere?

    My feeling is that for the 3 of us who work part-time is that it needs to be across the board for the 3 of us regarding our hours being cut since all 3 of a us are classified as part-time

    Do I just keep my opinions to myself about that one?

    Would it be better for to just start looking for a better job situation?

      1. PsychNurse*

        Probably. You can definitely complain, but it probably won’t change anything. “I’m not getting enough hours” is a refrain across many industries. Usually there’s nothing to do about it other than move on.

          1. Six*

            …that you want more hours????

            Like others said, this is a very common scenario for job hunting especially in retail.

    2. LizB*

      Only you can decide whether it’s worth it to you to work a 3-hour shift. Compare your commuting costs to how much you’ll be earning – are you still making money? Does the hassle of preparing for and getting to work for a short shift not feel worth it? It’s okay if you’re frustrated and want to look for a better job even if numerically the 3-hour shift “makes sense” – you get to choose to move on if you’re feeling undervalued.

      I do think you should keep your opinions to yourself about who got what hours cut just because expressing them probably isn’t going to do you any good. Employers are under no legal obligation to make their scheduling “fair” across their employees. There could be legit reasons for the discrepancy (part-timer who kept their hours is a rockstar) or kinda shitty reasons for the discrepancy (part-timer who kept their hours is some big boss’s nephew) but either way, it’s their call. The consequence they might have to deal with is, as seems to be happening here, their other employees may feel unappreciated and choose to leave.

        1. Valancy Snaith*

          Like, to say in interviews? It’s retail. Say anything. “I need more hours” or “I want to work closer to my house” or “They only pay $X per hour.” None of those will reflect badly on you.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Look, I’m not trying to be mean, but I don’t think it makes any difference whether you voice your opinion about it or not. It’s not your decision. It could possibly get you fired quicker, if they are annoyed. They certainly aren’t going to care about what you think is fair or not.

      They didn’t choose how to allocate the hours out of fairness. They chose who they wanted working more, and who they wanted working less. It sounds like you are just filling in a schedule gap that nobody else could cover.

      If you need more money than you are scheduled to earn, then yeah. You should look for another job.

  100. My boss reads aam*

    Way late to the game on this, hope someone reads this far: in my first round interview i got asked a salary question and i said “around xx K” but the reality is xx K is the floor.

    Context: i live in a area where xx is a good salary and my current salary where i walk to work. I moved from an urban area where my salary was xx plus 20K. This job is back in that urban area.

    What’s worrying me is when i said xxK to hr, he was like “i think thats doable based on your age and experience ” so it sounds to me that im already at their high end.

    Additional complexity is that this company is a msp for a company i used to work at making xx+ 30k. So they have the money. Im just an older female in IT so it’s pretty easy to lowball me then say i have unreasonable expectations.

    The job sounds interesting enough, the 90 minute commute does NOT, have second round monday and don’t know how to frame the salary question (second round is with hiring). Im thinking just saying a polite version of the truth, that my current salary is xx and the extended commute is gonna force changes in my budget that need compensation for me to jump ship.

    Im not happy or unhappy at my current job, it is just a bad fit and i wanna get out before i get desperate.

    I will not work this new job for my current salary. Due to the commute I frankly won’t even consider it for xx plus 5k. I don’t particularly care about age or market or whatever when i know i have a niche skill they’re having a hard time filling and i want the salary to reflect that. And I don’t know how to say that in a politically correct and polite way that won’t get my age and gender thrown back at me. I don’t know what to do

    1. Christi*

      So… why did you say that in the first interview if it wasn’t actually an acceptable salary for you? I don’t think it’s them lowballing you!

    2. RagingADHD*

      I don’t understand the situation. What salary question did they ask?

      If they asked “what are you making now,” and you answered without adding that you would need to bump that up for commute, etc, then it’s easily corrected. You just say, “I’d like to revisit the salary discussion, because we mentioned what I’m making now, but we didn’t discuss the other factors that would go into making a change.”

      Then you could talk about your prior experience in the city and with the company, and the commute. Then tell them the range that you actually want.

      If they asked what salary you’re looking for, and you misspoke by telling them the wrong number, then you clear that up as a miscommunication. Then talk about prior salary history and your target range.

      Surely they aren’t stupid enough to cite your age and gender in salary negotiations? And you wouldn’t want to work for them if they were.

      You already know you don’t want the job if they won’t meet your price. So who cares if they aren’t willing to pay it? You just thank them for their time and leave.

      You make them want to hire you in the interview portion. In the salary portion, they decide if they can afford you. You don’t convince them to pay you what you want. You just keep looking.

  101. Hiding from my Boss*

    I just did something I should’ve done a long time ago and resigned from a company mentorship program. I wasn’t going to sign up in the first place, but my boss kept asking me if I was going to, so i felt i had to.

    i was matched up with a very nice person who’d earned promotions to a significant role in the area i wanted to move into. But this person seemed to be feeling their way along as a mentor. There was no plan, we couldn’t seem to get off the ground, and some of their advice just sounded wrong for me.

    After several months I asked to be matched with someone else (there’s a procedure for that). Instead, the coordinator recommended a number of things for me to tell/ask my mentor for creating a plan. Looking back, I feel the coordinator didn’t respect my view of the situation.

    So we carried out the suggestions and they seemed helpful but ultimately took me nowhere (extremely abbreviating for brevity here). I felt like a guinea pig.

    I feel like a failure and a quitter and like i let the other person down. But I just got so tired of seeing other people advance while i put in 200%, following the guidance and got nowhere. I couldn’t keep doing that to myself, constantly getting my hopes up only to be left behind. I feel like I spent a lot of time making a fool of myself.

    Anyone else had a mentorship experience that wasn’t productive or positive?

  102. Woeful Empress*

    I have a third interview tomorrow, the first that will be in person. I’ve been asked to prepare a full go-to-market strategy for Product X. I am to be prepared to present this to the full US leadership team, with 30 minutes reserved for the presentation and time allowed after that for questions.

    The interview is scheduled with two people, so I don’t believe I’ll actually be presenting to the whole leadership team. I’m working on the strategic plan and presentation as we speak, but am wondering – would you bring hard copies of the presentation or handouts to the interview in addition to having it available electronically? I’m planning to save it to Dropbox, save a copy to a flash drive, and bring my laptop as well (though my personal laptop is really crappy and I hope to God I don’t have to run a presentation off of it). I am not sure how best to proceed on this part.

  103. Lucy Skywalker*

    Is it slut-shaming to have dress codes saying that women can’t wear clothing that shows their cleavage, the tops of their breasts, or their navels; or skirts that go above a certain length? For the purpose of this question, I’m referring to professional offices, not sex work or other locations where it’s appropriate to look “slutty.”

    1. allathian*

      It’s not “slut shaming” to require people to dress reasonably modestly, regardless of gender. So sleeveless tops and tight speedo type shorts would presumably be equally inappropriate for a man to wear? I’d avoid the gendered language, though.

  104. camembert*

    There’s been so much fuckery with my salary lately. I got promoted to assistant manager last year. It appears to have been concealed from me, but it turns out I was making less than my hourly direct reports, all of whom had been there mere months whereas I’ve been here for five years. In fact, I used to have their position, which used to be minimum wage (around $12.50/hour). They made $16/hour, and my salary worked out to $15.50/hour (and they initially offered me only $15).

    When my contract was up for renewal, they told me a raise was not possible, so I asked to reduce my work week to 35 hours. They agreed, but said I would be doing evenings instead of the day shift, which is how things normally went anyways. I thought they were penalizing me for asking for a raise.

    I looked into it, and all previous people in my position were working 35 hours, not 40 like I was. So, uh, that was weird.

    Looks like a new job posting will go up (we normally have two people in my role, not just one). It looks like this new person will be working 35 hours during the days, as they will be responsible for outreach and I will be responsible for the events that go on in the evenings. It’s very similar work, and in fact, I covered that aspect of the job for the past year. They will be making $625 weekly, whereas I make $620. It’s not a huge difference, but… it’s weird.

    I dunno. I like it there a lot, but the pay is awful to begin with and there are constant weird things happening with my pay.

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