open thread – October 28-29, 2022

by Alison Green on October 28, 2022

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 1,141 comments }

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  1. Over It*

    Are there any PAs here? I’ve been toying with the idea of going back to school and getting a clinical degree in fall 2024. I’ve been looking into PA school, but I’m concerned about the 1,000 hours of clinical experience most programs seem to require, and was wondering if anyone could speak more to that specifically? I have a public health degree and worked in social services, so I’ve always been very healthcare-adjacent, but don’t have any direct clinical experience and don’t see how I could possibly get 1,000+ hours in over the next two years while maintaining my full-time job, especially since shadowing doesn’t seem to count for many programs. Thanks in advance for any input!

    1. Over It*

      I’m also looking into other clinical degrees and am open to input from clinicians as I attempt to narrow this down. I’ve confidently ruled out medical school at this point as I’m most interested in primary care and psych, and I don’t have the stamina or finances to spend the next 8-10 years in medical training.

    2. Dr. Nurse*

      Generally PA schools will require that you do not work full time. (Some will not let you work at all.) I completed a nurse practitioner degree (1025 hours) while working full-time, but I had to cut back to part-time for the final year to complete all of the required hours.

      1. Over It*

        Ah maybe I wasn’t clear enough in my original post–I’m looking into applying for cohorts starting in fall 2024, and working full-time between now and then. For PA school they seem to require 1,000 patient contact hours as a *pre-requisite* before you even apply, which doesn’t seem to be the case for either nursing or medical school. I would not attempt to work more than a very part-time job once I was back in school, unless I end up picking a different degree that has a part-time program.

    3. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      My daughter is a PA. She did so later in life (late 30s). She had some veterans’ benefits but also a husband who supported her. She used the time on his deployment to get through one year of the program.

      She didn’t have 1000 hours of clinical experience. My nephew is now in PA school, he didn’t have it either, as far as I know.

      1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

        CORRECTION = mrs-Anon-2 just informed me that she DID some hospital work before entering the PA program – I don’t believe it was 1000 hours but she did do SOME.
        Same with my nephew, but probably not 1000 hours… that’s like, half a year full time.

    4. ferrina*

      Do you mean 1000 hours as a graduation requirement? Yes, that is very common. It’s well-known in PA circles that in your second year, the PA program is your life (there’s a running joke about how second-year PAs are only available at 2am after their rotation and homework). It is an extremely intense program; I don’t recommend trying to hold down a full-time job at the same time (PA school is more than a full-time job). It’s assumed that your will be in school full-time + any overtime needed for studying (and there is a LOT to study)

      Almost every school (if not every school) has a program to help you meet the requirement. The clinical placements are one of the benefits of PA programs and how you can learn so much so fast.

      If you’ve got more questions about being a PA, reach out to the American Academy of Physician Assistants. They occasionally work with pre-PA folks like yourself and may be able to recommend some resources.

      1. Over It*

        I wasn’t clear enough in my initial post–I would not attempt to work full time while in school, and clinical hours would of course be something I’d expect from a PA program. But I’ve been seeing that a lot of programs seem to require 1,000 clinical hours as a *pre-requisite* to applying to the program, and I’m concerned about getting those hours before becoming a student, because I currently work full-time. Am I just grossly misunderstanding the pre-req here?

        1. ferrina*

          PA programs originated to help folks that already had medical experience find a path to practicing that was faster than med school. IIRC, the first program was for WW2 vets who were medics in the war. They had medical experience, but didn’t want to spend 7 years completing med school when they already had tons of experience. That was when the first PA school came about (at Duke). It’s a pretty cool history.

          Given how intense PA programs can be (and how much knowledge they cram into 2 years), having the clinical experience is probably really, really helpful for the students.

          1. Banana*

            This. My sister is a PA. She was an RN first and left her nursing job to go to PA school. Hers is a very common path.

    5. AtticWife*

      I am not a PA but I work for a university PA program in the admissions part. Patient care hours are an important part of our application but we do look at applications holistically and not just that one part. If you have a local program, I would suggest setting up a meeting with them and asking what they are looking for. I am also happy to answer some questions for you.

    6. it's all good*

      My daughter’s goal was to apply to PA school after undergrad. Her goal was 4,000 hours. She was an EMT during college and interned at a hospital during HS. Her goal was that high as PA school is so competitive and that was the safe amount of hours according to her research and advice by those in the know.

    7. Ann Ominous*

      You could get a degree in social work (MSW) and then get paid for your clinical hours that you need for licensure. Most MSW programs (the good ones) require an internship both years, though, and that’s usually unpaid. I went full-time on GI Bill and could afford it while also working weekends and nights, but I wouldn’t recommend it, it was exhausting.

      1. Ann Ominous*

        To be clear – I love my degree and clinical path, just working all the time while going to school and interning full time was the exhausting part.

        1. Over It*

          I’ve ruled out social work. Social workers are amazing! But I’ve worked with a ton of them over the years (including MSW interns placed at my org) and I know enough about what MSW programs entail to decide it’s not for me.

          I also wasn’t clear in my initial post. I wouldn’t attempt to work full-time while in school, but need to continue working full-time until if/when I go back to school. Many PA programs seem to require 1,000 clinical hours as a pre-req to even apply to the program, and I can’t reasonably see how I could balance that while working full-time.

    8. AnonyNurse*

      I’m biased (obvs) but I always recommend nursing school and an NP if you want. Once you get your RN/BSN, which you can do on an accelerated path in a year or two if you have an undergrad degree, you are totally employable and can make a good income. You can also continue straight into an NP program if you want. Most RN programs don’t expect prior patient care experience, though they appreciate it – pre-reqs are usually anatomy and physiology and a microbiology course. I did all my pre-reqs at my local community college, with my original BA being in sociology. (I was working at a hospital at the time, which is how I was convinced to go the nursing route rather than the MSW I planned).

      It’s super important to look at scope of practice and supervision requirements in the jurisdiction where you live or might hope to live, for both PAs and NPs. What you’re allowed to do, whether you can work independently, how much a physician has to directly oversee your work, etc. varies GREATLY. There’s nuance everywhere and sometimes really weird/stupid quirks in a specific practice area in a specific place.

      1. Over It*

        I appreciate this insight! I was originally considering the NP route, and tbh it’s still on the table. I have a BA, but not a nursing degree, so I’d need to do some sort of accelerated BSN program first, then an NP degree, and that just seemed like a lot of school. I’ll also admit it’s been confusing to navigate AASN-to-RN vs accelerated BSN vs entry-level MSN programs (too expensive!) Whereas PA programs seem to be about 2 1/2 years long and just much more standardized. But I am reconsidering PA school as an option if the 1,000 patient contact hours as a pre-req don’t count. Shadowing or volunteering doesn’t seem to count, they expect you to be an EMT/phlebotomist/CNA etc for most programs, which I am not.

        Scope of practice is also something I’m looking into! I feel like I’d end up somewhere with considerable physician oversight regardless, but point taken. I currently live in a state where NPs can practice with semi-autonomy and PAs cannot, but I’m considering moving long-term and not sure what state I’d end up in.

        1. AnonyNurse*

          Yea, just if you’re thinking about 1,000 hours … think post-RN with RN level pay, versus pre-PA at CNA or EMT pay. Def get a BSN; there are a lot of places that won’t hire non-BSN nurses (which I think is stupid, but I don’t make those rules). And some (not all, but some) hospitals and such do tuition reimbursement for NP programs, so you can work as an RN and get the NP paid for. Some NP programs are shifting away from MSNs towards DNPs; I’ve seen less of it as a practice requirement (like facilities only wanting to hire DNP NPs instead of MSNs). Boards are the same, it shouldn’t matter. But some in the nursing profession want to “compete” with physicians. As one of my nursing school profs told us, “when people ask why you didn’t go to med school, tell them you’re too smart to be a doctor.” [Mostly, so glad I didn’t have to go through the nightmare that is medical residency; little pay, no sleep, no thank you.]

          I thought I’d get an NP, but didn’t because I quickly grew disillusioned doing direct patient care. I moved into public health and got an MSN in admin (no clinical hours, and was cheaper than the NP tuition OR the MPH tuition and got me to the same “master’s degree required” place). There’s also international flexibility for RNs (and NPs) that doesn’t always exist with PAs.

          1. Moi*

            FYI there is evidence that shows patient safety is increased when cared for by BScN prepared nurses. Check the admission requirements, here in Ontario nursing is one of the hardest programs to get into

    9. Ann O'Nemity*

      Most of the top PA programs require 1000 or more clinical hours as a prerequisite. Competitive programs will not only look at the number of clinical hours but also the type of work completed. There are many routes and options. Some folks will pick up a “quick” certification like basic EMT or CNA. Some will find work as a phlebotomist or medical scribe that has built-in training. We generally advise students to think about the type of work they want to do as a PA and prepare with aligned clinical work. For example, if you want to be a PA in an emergency room then the EMT route makes good sense.

    10. GingerNP*

      I applied to PA school three years in a row and was rejected three years in a row despite 10,000+ clinical hours as an emergency department nurse.
      I eventually had to have my own come to Jesus moment and decide that, even though I knew a PA program would have been a better academic fit for me, I would ultimately come out the other side of an NP program similarly trained and licensed, and as an RN (BSN) with an undergrad GPA higher than a 3.0, I would basically get in to any NP program I wanted.
      PA programs are intensely competitive – and yeah, they require a certain number of direct patient care hours (500 or 1000 usually), and usually scribing doesn’t count (even though it is incredibly useful experience in terms of witnessing medical decision making), but more direct patient care won’t overcome a mediocre GPA when most applicants are floating a 3.9 or higher.
      Many PA schools are programmed in such a way that you really can’t work while you go. Most NP programs are created with working nurses in mind.
      And (while I have a lot of experience) I made about $40/hour on average working my ER job through my NP program (in northeast wisconsin).

    11. Parent of a pa*

      My daughter is a PA and she got her hours by being an EMT for a volunteer ambulance for our town. This allowed her to work as many or as few hours as she wanted. They also allowed you to sleep there so she could do an overnight night shift getting tons of hours (EMT hours are usually high quality hours for most programs). Good luck!

  2. Russian In Texas*

    I want to start a thread on the most absurd/bizarre/strange work advice you’ve received. I don’t want the standard old-timey gumption ones, more modern ones.
    I will start with the one straight from the AAM comment thread from last week:
    if you don’t like your call center job, breaking in to freelance writing is an easy thing to do, everyone can do it.
    For me, that sounds exactly as if someone said “breaking in to the competitive ballet dancing is an easy thing to do, everyone can do it”.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      You need to show your dedication by always being available – share your cell phone, add work chat (slack/teams) and work email to your phone, constantly be checking them.

        1. HigherEdEscapee*

          Oh, I worked for someone who not only gave this advice, she lived it. The only time she wasn’t available was when she was in the shower, sleeping, or on a plane. It was absurd.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Government jobs are low stress (???)
      Part time jobs are good for burnout (you mean jobs where you don’t get food breaks and everyone yells at you)
      Temp jobs (I’m not sure why people want me to work at Amazon or in a factory?)

      1. Former Recruiter, Current HR Generalist*

        There are so many different kinds of part-time and temp jobs outside of what you describe here. That feels like an extreme reaction to either of those. There are plenty of part-time jobs not in retail (what I’m assuming you mean) or temp jobs in an office (not at Amazon or a factory).

        1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          It’s not extreme, that’s just how I talk. I’m just very honest online! After trying to get an office temp job for years in the 10s I might privilege my own experience a little.

        2. talos*

          Where I used to live (near a small city whose main industry was agriculture), every temp job was manual labor. Every single one. Lifting heavy things in the July sun, 8 hours/day of industrial-scale gardening/lawncare, construction.

          Temp jobs are so regional. There are places that just don’t have any good ones. Your good experience with temp jobs is not necessarily universal.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            That might be true. I live in a city but it’s all warehouses or factories. If I move into a new job I might have to work at a hospital *
            * there are many, people at my job work at hospitals, I could level up.

      2. RabbitRabbit*

        The other poster is right about temp jobs – there are temp positions that are beyond that, like Kelly Professional and similar. I signed up for Kelly Professional years ago, and with my science background, I once got a temp position where worked in a paint and dye factory in their lab, testing their products for density and the like.

        I now work for a large hospital that has its own temp pool, plus they use temp agencies specializing in healthcare employees for temporary and temp-to-perm hiring.

        2. RabbitRabbit*

          Edit: Kelly Sciences/Scientific at the time, I think.

          And as others noted, region makes such a difference. I live near a very large city.

      3. Glomarization, Esq.*

        I mean, I’ve worked in jobs in all 3 of those categories and I can’t say that my experience in any of them has been problematic in these ways. My government job was, simply, not a high-stress job, though I’m sure it’s different for others.

        I worked low-key part-time jobs throughout university and law school, and I don’t think I can recall being denied my break times on any regular basis. And there are temp jobs in any industry, not just Amazon or manufacturing (mine have all been as office clerks or lawyer-adjacent).

      4. not good at naming stuff*

        YES. “Just call a temp agency, they’ll find you a job” is the worst bit of advice I’ve been given in my current search.

        I’ve tried five separate temp agencies. You don’t just give them your resume and they find you a job, you apply for each job individually and then nobody ever gets back to you.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Oh yeah.

          I got a lot of “just apply with the temp agency” a while back when I was employed but underemployed, and they called me once for a job that conflicted with my existing job, and when I told them that, I’m pretty sure they blacklisted me and I never heard from them again.

        2. Eff Walsingham*

          *shrug* It varies by area. Where I live now, there are at least 5 active agencies, lots of workers, lots of hiring. Different agencies for different sectors. I left one agency because they kept sending me to assignments that weren’t as good a fit. I’ve been temp-to-perm in 2 major cities now, and in office and warehousing. So it leads me to make the suggestion, if I know of someone who’s looking, “Have you tried any temp agencies in your region?” Just in case (a) they haven’t thought of it, and (b) it might be worthwhile for them.

        3. J*

          I did things with a legal temp agency. They didn’t do much diligence to ensure I was the right fit for roles, despite rigorous testing and interviewing on their end. Instead, I spent time doing constant interviews just to be disappointed or to get placements that were not a great match. I once showed up for what was an interview and they sat me down to work immediately. I called the temp agency after an hour and they said that happened all the time and why was that a bad thing that my 1 hour interview at 9:30 am was not an interview at all but rather doc review. I wasn’t prepared and had an afternoon appointment elsewhere; they could have at least warned me.

          It was worse for my health than my stint in Big Law. And I’m not even an attorney.

        4. The Real Fran Fine*

          I’ve tried five separate temp agencies. You don’t just give them your resume and they find you a job, you apply for each job individually and then nobody ever gets back to you.

          Yeah, temp agencies expect you to stay on top of them, calling and checking on your resume – the complete opposite of what we’re told to do during a regular job search. They won’t respond to you unless you’re a current placement with a track record with their agency of good work. Then, they’ll reach out to you for years for placements, even when you have a permanent position somewhere else. It’s annoying.

      5. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

        I think Temp or Contract jobs might be true in a general sense, but it might not be true for everyone everywhere.

        > When I lived in LA office and creative temp jobs were very prevalent and relatively easy to get with little notice. Not so much in other states.

    3. Russian In Texas*

      There was another one from this week, on another board.
      If you don’t like your desk and want a different one, just move, it’s easier to ask for forgiveness.
      Sorry, but that would not work in any jobs I worked. You had to get approval from your manager, IT had to open the ticket, you couldn’t leave your department’s “geographical” area, and some more prime desks/cubes were not for the mere peons, even if they were empty.

      1. Love to WFH*

        I did that, but it was at a startup. I hated my tiny cubicle so I moved into an empty office until they hired the person it was for, and then I found an old freestanding desk and moved into an empty space.

      2. NotRealAnonforThis*

        Mileage varies. We literally moved my desk one day when we were bored at OldJob, and everyone in upper management and IT realized it about three weeks later.

        CurrentJob though? It takes an act of congress to get a desk switch approved.

        1. starsaphire*

          100% mileage varies, and bigger companies usually make it harder. We had someone in my row apply for a cube switch (she was on the end and trying to do focused work) to move One. Cube. Over. You’d have thought she was asking permission to dance naked on the front lawn.

          Three years later, she’s finally in that cube, but it took the lockdown, two retirements, and three new hires to move her off the end.

          (If you’ve never worked in a cube farm, being on the end suuuucks because you are privy to everyone’s conversations as they pass by in groups, chat on their phones, or lean on your cube wall while they wait for the conference room across the way to open up.)

      3. Like a River*

        I once wrote to AAM about the problems I was having moving one desk over (it was about 5 feet away) because being right next to floor-to-ceiling windows (and under fluorescent lights) was just all migraines all the time. It was truly a huge PITA and after reading the responses in that thread I’m like, “…have any of all y’all ever actually worked anywhere before?????”

        1. Russian In Texas*

          OMG, that was about 3-4 years ago, and it was written to Dear Prudence for some reason and not AAM. A new employee suffers from SAD, and live in the northern part of the US. She wants the newly available window cubicle. So does everyone else. The company will give it out based on the seniority in the department (as they tend to), and what can she do to acquire this desk?
          The answer proved 100% that Danny Lavery have never worked in a regular corporate office. Because yes, the War for The Window is a real thing, and it can be vicious.

          1. KoiFeeder*

            No, it was AAM, because I remember it and I don’t read Dear Prudence unless someone here mentions an interesting letter. I will hunt down the link with my sensitive barbels, give me a moment.

            2. Russian In Texas*

              It might be the case of a LW sending the questions to everyone, because I distinctly remember “Daniel has never worked in the office, huh” wall of comments.

              1. Allison*

                KoiFeeder IS the LW! It’s very possible that some else with a similar problem wrote to Prudie.

      4. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        “some more prime desks/cubes were not for the mere peons, even if they were empty.”

        This brings me back to a previous job I had where the VP ordered the office doors removed in a particular suite because the occupants of those offices were in job categories usually assigned to a cubicle, and he didn’t want them to get used to having a door in case they were moved back to cubes at any point (higher ed, departments move around a lot).

    4. Not Your Admin Ass(t)*

      Oh, my god. As someone who HAS done writing for a living and was even considered highly successful in my field, I feel the flames on the side of my face every time someone says, “Just be a writer!” Even your favorite big-name authors are pretty much all grossly overworked and underpaid. Your favorite big blogger is spending all their spare time and late nights working on their side hustles to pay the bills. The “lucky” ones who do write full-time are often being supported by a spouse or inherited money.

      And because everyone thinks writing is “easy,” most writing-related fields are oversaturated, which is why it’s such a low-paying, unstable career to get into. Definitely a labor of love, not of money or needs met or even stability.

      1. Russian In Texas*

        I don’t think writing is easy!
        I would have to write professionally!!! In English!!! About what? For whom? I wouldn’t know where to start!

      2. WellRed*

        Yes, also writer for a living and at least weekly, someone in the comments suggests freelance writing as a viable option. It’s low paid, over saturated and does require a bit of ability and talent.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          Much of my day job is editing what others write. Many people think they’re really good writers. Not as many are. (Don’t even talk to me about terrible document design in general.)

          I think people think because they have to be able to write semi competently to graduate, they’re really good. But that’s like me thinking that I can carry a tune without people throwing things at me, I can be a music star.

      3. Mockingjay*

        All in the last 10 years.

        Colleague: “Here’s a resume (from my son-in-law, but no one is supposed to know) for a young man who would be a great tech writer.”
        Mockingjay (peruses resume): “Umm, this kid is a car salesman, has no degree, and no technical or writing background whatsoever?”

        Boss: “New engineer is not working out (the entire software team – devs, engs, and testers – refused to work with this idiot), so I’m putting him on your doc team.”
        Mockingjay: *speechless
        New So-Called TW: “I updated my email signature!”
        It said, Idiot Name, Documentation Engineer.

        Wannabe Tech Writer (in TW forum): “I wanna be a tech writer!”
        Mockingjay: “What makes you interested in the field?”
        Wannabe Tech Writer: “I hear you can make lots of money!”
        Mockingjay: *blinks
        Wannabe Tech Writer: “How do I become one?”

          1. The Real Fran Fine*

            I’m changing my title at work to this. It’s amazing, and my company also used to be fond of made up titles that had no basis in reality too, so no one will probably even notice, lol.

      4. WheresMyPen*

        Yes! And as someone who works in publishing and has written for young non native speakers of English, I’m gonna slap the next person who says that ‘writing kids’ books must be so easy’ (not talking about celebs who use ghost writers though, that’s another argument altogether!)

    5. Llama Llama*

      I am pretty sure he was kidding but my great grandboss told me I should take up smoking to socialize with management more (which honestly was probably true…). This was only 10 years ago.

        1. linger*

          Can confirm it was genuine advice given in Japan as recently as the late 1990s, and it still had some validity then, because the majority of the most senior (male) staff smoked. Things had changed markedly by 2005, partly through a concerted anti-smoking campaign, but mostly through that generation reaching retirement age.

      2. Kelly L.*

        My mom once advised me to pretend-smoke to get more breaks. Just stand outside holding an unlit cigarette. Apparently it worked for her!

      3. Felicity Flowers*

        In a similar vain a few weeks ago my sister during a discussion on how to deal with an out of control coworker my sister’s HR manager (of a medical practice) completely seriously said to her “Have you considered taking up smoking to deal with the extra stress you’ve been experiencing”.

      4. The Person from the Resume*

        That’s why my dad took up drinking coffee. Many years ago (he’s now retired) his job required him to visit offshore oil rigs (so no smoking), and he noticed other people took coffee breaks while he kept working so he eventually joined in on the coffee breaks.

      6. Unkempt Flatware*

        Oh lord I had forgotten this one and should have entered this story instead: my female boss who loved talking about how she held a degree in chemistry and therefore was a super female told me literally out of the thin blue sky–I had not asked for such advice–that when you attend your husband’s work party, carry around a cocktail even if you don’t drink. This was in 2012. It was the strangest thing I had ever heard and very odd coming from a woman who bragged about how different she was from other women.

        1. Fishsticks*

          I mean, I do the same thing (I will carry a drink in my hand that LOOKS alcoholic even if it isn’t) in any serious drinking setting, as I stick to one or two drinks per event. For me, it’s because otherwise I found people would constantly ask if I needed to get a new drink, or try to get me one, or just bug me about not drinking. Having a cocktail/mocktail in hand solved the problem.

    6. Anon for This*

      Get a dog. This was to someone who was complaining that as a single person she was always expected to stay late because her colleagues had kids.

      Weird advice, but she actually did it and it worked. Sorry, can’t stay – have to get home to walk the dog.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        I have used that. I actually did have a dog who needed to be walked, and also was on a complicated medication schedule.

      3. Loopy*

        I have a dog and people have me side eye over this sometimes. Like a dog could wait (which, no they are living beings who don’t deserve to suffer waiting for a bathroom break).

        No one outright said anything except once but I got the vibes this approach not always as useful.

      4. The Person from the Resume*

        Just get a fake dog. A real dog is a lot of work and expense especially for a single person (with no partner or kids to split the pet care with).

    7. Just Want A Nap*

      “Sit in on meetings with teams you might be interested in joining! Just invade a conference room!”
      No, thank you. That’s a terrible plan.

      1. The Real Fran Fine*

        This is insane, and I wish someone at my company would do this (preferably during a Teams call).

    8. Irish Teacher.*

      Not EXACTLY advice, but it did imply advice. Back when I was a young teacher applying for jobs, my grandmother told me, “I don’t like the way you do your hair for interviews. It makes you look like an ould school teacher.”

      Um, yes, that is exactly the impression I am TRYING to give when applying for teaching jobs.

      1. Zap R.*

        Irish grandmother advice is its own special category because it’s typically a scathing personal insult disguised as a friendly suggestion. Like, “Ah, child, have ye not got attin else to wear?”

      2. Veryanon*

        Irish grandmothers are the best! They’re your worst critic but also your fiercest and most loyal friend.
        I’ll never forget years ago, when I was going through my divorce, I saw my grandma at a family holiday gathering. She had been very sick and this was just a few months before she passed away. She asked me how I was doing and I told her I was hanging in there. She then looked me dead in the eye and said “When I think of [ex-husband’s name], I get murder in my heart.” At that point she was maybe 80 pounds dripping wet and was in a wheelchair, but she was deadly serious.

    9. hamsterpants*

      My university career center had us practice elevator pitches in advance of a job fair, which would be great, except their exemplar came down to “I’m a problem solver, any issue your company is having, you just bring it to me and I’ll find a way to solve it.” Yeah I’m sure Microsoft has just been waiting for the perfect fresh BA graduate to sweep in to solve EVERY PROBLEM.

      1. Bess*

        LOL

        That’s just…chef’s kiss level of absurdity

        Would not hire someone who said that to me, I’d see it as a sign of delusion

      3. Jessica*

        This reminds me of the AAM letter from the young man who wanted to get hired to be some company’s Ideas Guru.

    10. Kelly L.*

      From an ex’s mom: Why don’t you start writing Regency romance novels?

      Mind you, I did fancy myself a writer at the time, but I’d never said anything that could have given the impression I was into that very specific subgenre. She just thought it would be easy money for me.

      1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        As a romance author (contemporary though), the number of times I have heard people express that writing romance is “easy and anyone can do it” is…a lot. Then these folks write books that don’t follow the rules of the genre – like not having a happy ending, main character death, the romance only taking up 10% of the story – and wonder why they can’t sell any books or get raked over the coals on Goodreads.

        1. CharlieBrown*

          Writing romance is still…writing. And that’s not something that just happens.

          Plus, romance writing is, as you pointed out, very formulaic. It’s kind of why readers like it, because they know what to expect and what they’ll get out of it. But to adhere to the formula and be interesting and not just like every other romance novel out there requires a HUGE level of creativity that, let’s face it, most people simply lack. I know for sure I couldn’t do that, and I’m a pretty good writer myself.

        2. Kelly L.*

          And Regency in particular has a *lot* of rules. You’re not even just writing a love story with a happy ending, you’re writing it in as much the style of Georgette Heyer as possible, and I haven’t even read any of her stuff.

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            And the dialogue has really high standards in that genre! You also have to be good at the witty repartee.

        3. Hmm!*

          A guy I knew tried something similar. He thought romance novels were dumb, so therefore, all of the readers must be dumb, therefore the quality standards will be low, therefore he could just crap out 50,000 words and everyone will instinctively flock to his genius and give him money and accolades.

          I’m not even a romance reader myself, but everyone I know who is has EXACTING taste and extremely high standards. Just because it’s not *my* thing doesn’t mean it’s low-effort crap!

      2. NaoNao*

        My mother keeps pushing Regency on me! Along with “clean Hallmark”. There’s little to no money in those as a self published author *and* I’m actually writing a different sub-genre/niche (vacation/steamy/contemporary) so it’s extra annoying.

        I think this is just what people think of when they think of “romance novels” is either that or the stereotypical bodice-ripper historicals with Vikings and stuff.

        1. Kelly L.*

          I wonder if it’s just what the advice-givers are into, or if (because it’s often mother figures) they don’t want to imagine us writing Teh Sex, they pick something clean.

      3. PenNamesAreFun*

        As a romance author who started writing when she hated her job (which I am quitting today!), this is the most hilarious advice. I’m doing relatively well with my debut (self-pubbed) and this is in no waaaay a replacement career.

        1. starsaphire*

          I have three novels out, published through a solid mid-level romance publishing house.

          I think last quarter my royalty check was $3.50.

          Just sayin.

          1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

            Mine were traditionally published first and I made around $50 a quarter because they were pretty good with marketing. I self-published them all after they went out of business on KDP and I make about $3-5 a month.

            Unless you’re Nora Roberts, you’re not going to be rolling in piles of cash by any means.

        2. Pisces*

          I discovered that most people who consider quitting hated jobs to write full-time, hate their jobs. Period. It has nothing to do with how much they like writing, or how good they are at it.

      4. RagingADHD*

        The number of book franchises that have a team of writers churning out content under a single pen name gives a lot of genre readers wildly unrealistic expectations of how quickly most people can write books.

        I’ve known a couple of people who can bang out a first draft in 2 weeks, rewrite in 2, send to the editor, over and over. But that’s not typical by a long shot.

        1. BadCultureFIt*

          Former ghostwriter here (of some bestselling YA series). I would turn in 60k words in a 5-week deadline. It was WILD.

          1. RagingADHD*

            Fastest I ever did was 65K in 21 days, but it was nonfiction based on interview transcripts & research that were already done. I didn’t have to make anything up from scratch.

            It was hellish and I never want to get stuck on a project like that again (someone else dropped the ball and we were pushing deadline).

      1. Jaid*

        *Looks at the new hires on campus* Side eyes comment…

        If these people are the best of the best who got hired, I shudder to think about who didn’t make the cut.

        1. Janeric*

          I think to some extent the PROCESS is extremely byzantine — for example, to get an entry level job I had to
          1.) take an exam
          2.) wait for the exam to be graded
          3.) sign up to be notified of new jobs
          4.) put together a profile on the website where I pre-filled out forms showing I was eligible to work in the US and had the degrees I was claiming
          5.) found a job posting I wanted to apply for
          6.) the whole resume/cover letter but also some essay questions on likely job situations and a document that listed my specific experience with internal processes and software
          7.) 2 interviews, both with preset questions that were asked by the panel in turn, with no variations.

          It was a PROCESS that required a mentor to lead me through, and I don’t think it selects for the best applicants (though high tolerance for bureaucracy IS a significant plus.)

          1. starsaphire*

            6.5) Wait years for the process to catch up with the list of applicants.

            (In my case, it was three years between me applying and me getting the six-month gig. And I took it because it got me out of a call center. I had seriously forgotten that I had applied!)

      2. AnonyNurse*

        A federal job I recently applied to got over 3,000 applicants in a 3-day open window. GS-13 nurse job.

    12. Shiba Dad*

      I wanted to get graduate certificate. My employer’s reimbursement policy has some vague language in it (“…qualifying programs include, but aren’t limited too Associate, Bachelor and Masters degrees…). I sent HR the info and they approved the first course. When I went to take the second one, they denied it and cited the vague language.

      Advice from folks above me: tell HR I was getting a Masters degree. What could go wrong?

    13. Johanna Cabal*

      Not sure if this counts but when I was laid off in ’09 my mom (who has not worked since the early 1980s) kept insisting that I would be shoe-in for a government job because I had a master’s degree. Well, you can’t “just get a government job,” you have to go through USAJobs and there must’ve been hundreds, if not thousands of applicants back then. Not to mention, master’s degrees are a lot more common now than back then.

      2. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

        I think I was one of those in ‘09!
        I actually got a couple of interviews based on my degree and experience only to be told they couldn’t hire me because of military and other preferential hiring.

    14. Panicked*

      “You’re young, you shouldn’t take any position in management. You should leave those jobs for the people who really need them.” -Said to 32 year old me by my mother after I told her of the management position I got (and was extremely qualified for.)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Oh good. That’s what the world needs is “needy managers.” What could possibly go wrong.
        smh.

        Why do I think you are a daughter. Bad, bad advice, mom, where ever you are.

      2. Irish Teacher*

        Yikes, not only is it ridiculous to assume “need” based on things like age, but if one WERE going to, I would think 32 would be stereotyped as the age when people MOST “need” a well-paying job. That’s just the age when a lot of people are thinking of getting married or are just married or are looking to buy a home or have recently taken out a mortgage or are either planning to start a family or have young children. Now, like I said, it would be ridiculous to think ONLY people in their early 30s have those kinds of expenses and that everybody under 25 or 30 is living at home with no children and no immediate plans for marriage or children and that everybody over 50 has their mortgage paid off and their kids moving towards self-sufficiency, but if I WERE going to choose an age that stereotypically is less likely to need a well-paying job, it sure wouldn’t be 32.

    15. Dark Macadamia*

      “You should try (insert thing I’m already doing, that the person has seen me do in the recent past)!” Multiple times. Well golly why didn’t I think of that!

      1. Mill Miker*

        Someone I know recently got the following advice, presented as if it were a piece of obscure sage wisdom:

        “You should try looking on Indeed”

        1. EmKay*

          Dame Edna Everage vibes…

          “We’re newlyweds hoping for a baby. What would you suggest?”
          “I would suggest se*ual intercourse.”

    16. Morgan Proctor*

      Honestly, I broke into freelance writing pretty easily. I started by writing essays and pitching them to various online magazines, which gave me the experience and some visibility. Then I just searched “hiring copywriter” on Twitter, which lead to gigs. Of course, to do any of this, you have to be a good writer, which, unfortunately, almost no one is. YMMV!

      For me, I’ve come across a lot of bad advice around job hunting. Back when I was laid off of my job during the pandemic, I came across this absolutely nutso guy who has this absurd guide to applying for jobs, which includes basically volunteering free work and lightweight stalking the hiring managers. You can… simply apply for a job, interview for it, and get it. None of his or any other wackadoo “job coach’s” advice helped me in the slightest.

      1. mreasy*

        I am good at writing (the craft of it), not a brag, just a fact, read a lot as a kid and I’m just a very verbal person. What I’m not good at is a) doing the writing part for more than half an hour or so and b) handling rejection. So being a professional writer is hard in a LOT of ways, I admire people who do it immensely!

      2. No Bees On Typhon*

        Same, but I’m writing in a niche where you need a very solid technical background. I have a PhD and postdoctoral research experience in a relevant field, more than a decade of experience of doing similar writing/editing work in-house, and a truly great network that got me my first couple of clients. I’m in a couple of Facebook groups for freelance writers in any field, and people trying to break in to more general writing gigs seem to have a really, really rough time.

      3. Russian In Texas*

        Yes, the “you have to be a good writer” is the main thing. Most people aren’t, and that particular commenter had the attitude “well, I did it, and so it’s easy, anyone can do”.

    17. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      When I wanted to advance out of computer operations to technical levels …

      “You don’t need no education. Stay put.”

      When I left one job (stress machine! heart attacks all around! middle of the night calls three times a week!) I took another – job, tech support (yes, SOME customer calls but it wasn’t a “help desk” – very specialized), teaching, consulting, trade shows, etc. = what I wanted to do, lower stress, no middle-of the nights, etc. “yeah but what about the future? Your FUTURE????!!!”

      Hey, Bozo, I (was) 44 at the time. MY FUTURE IS NOW.

    18. ecnaseener*

      There was one circulating on tumblr recently that boiled down to: if an interviewer presses you on whether you have a car, say (verbatim) “I see what you’re doing. You’re attempting to stonewall me into answering a question that you’re not legally allowed to ask, because of preconceived prejudices you may hold.”

      (Is it even true that you’re not legally allowed to ask that?)

      1. Warrior Princess Xena*

        Even if you were 100% correct about their motivations and 100% about the accuracy of your statement (which I doubt, because having a car/being able to reliably get to work is not a protected class, and in fact is considered a requirement in a lot of jobs), saying this would definitely mark you as someone no interviewer would want to hire. Calling people’s prejudice out to their face tends to burn bridges. It’s just that they’re not normally bridges we mind burning.

      2. not good at naming stuff*

        There are very few questions interviewers aren’t legally allowed to ask. There are a lot of questions that it would be unwise of them to ask because they wouldn’t be allowed to consider those answers in their hiring decisions and it would open them up to accusations of discrimination, but very few things that they’re straight up not allowed to ask.

        Also, car ownership is not a protected category, so it wouldn’t make the cut either way.

        1. Kelly L.*

          Car ownership is not, but a lack of car can point to either socioeconomic or disability issues. That said, the script given is awful!

      3. Nope.*

        No, it’s not true. Owning or not owning a car isn’t a protected class. To add, most of what people think are illegal interview questions aren’t – it’s the action of using the info to discriminate that’s illegal, not the asking itself. Granted, any interviewer with common sense is therefore going to steer clear of those topics, but slipping up and asking about something that would determine membership in a protected class* isn’t the “gotcha” some people think it is.

        (*Which leads into another misconception people sometimes have – that being a member of a protected class, any class, is notable. It is not. EVERYONE is a member of at least one protected class. It’s when people take action specifically because of that membership that you have an issue.)

      4. Annie Moose*

        I did some digging, and I think I’ve found where this idea comes from. Apparently the federal EEOC laws do make it illegal to discriminate based on financial information, which includes things like car ownership. But like any of the discrimination laws, I don’t think it’s illegal to ask, what’s illegal is discriminating based on the answer to the question.

        I found this bit from an HR site:

        “While federal law does not prevent employers from asking candidates about financial information, the federal equal employment opportunity laws prohibit employers from illegally discriminating when using financial information to make employment decisions. The EEOC notes that an employer may not have a financial requirement if it does not help the employer to accurately identify responsible and reliable employees, and if, at the same time, the requirement significantly disadvantages people of a particular race, color, national origin, religion or sex. […] Unless the use of a personal vehicle to travel between worksites or other locations is a primary job duty, the question of whether an individual owns a car is irrelevant and could result in claims of discrimination in the hiring decision.”

        Either way, of course, it’s still terrible advice. There’s no way you’d get a job after saying something in that manner, so you might as well just excuse yourself from the interview rather than playing gotcha with the interviewer! And if it’s a job where you actually do need a car, then you just make yourself look silly.

      5. Maggie*

        Of course that’s not true. You can legally ask someone if they plan on getting pregnant soon. You’re not allowed to base your hiring decision off of it, which is why the vast majority of people don’t. You can ask someone if they’re gay or catholic or have a boat or how old they are.

      6. Rex Libris*

        Most of us are just trying to get at whether the candidate has reliable transportation because because we’re wondering if they’re going to show up two hours late every other day because the bus runs too early/ they couldn’t get a ride/the wheel fell off their skateboard/whatever. I don’t really care how they get here as long as they have a reliable plan for it.

        1. DataSci*

          Then maybe ask about reliable transportation, not the particular method you consider to be most reliable. I once worked somewhere where the only guy who made it into the office the day after a major snowstorm was the one who biked to work every day. But somehow there’s this common misconception that car troubles are just a thing that happens, while being late once every few months because the subway had problems is an unforgiveable sin indicating that all public transit is always unreliable.

      7. Russian In Texas*

        I do not believe there are questions that are illegal to ask. There are answers that are illegal to discriminate based on.
        Most HRs do not want you to ask these questions so there is no basis for any kind of discrimination lawsuit.

    19. Dust Bunny*

      I work in archives and can’t do most of the work from home because it’s, well, paper-based and materials don’t leave the building.

      I had a guy insist that almost all jobs could be WFH and so could mine if we had everything digitized.

      I mean . . . yes, it could, but who did he think would do that? Me. I would. It’s a big part of my job. Also, having stuff just digitized wholesale would be monumentally expensive and it’s not like archives have ever been over-funded.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        I also had a researcher insist he didn’t need photocopies until like twenty minutes before closing, when he suddenly needed like 60 pages of them. “Don’t you have one of those auto-feed copiers?”

        Yes, we do, but I’m not feeding a bunch of irregularly-sized, mostly onionskin, 75-year-0ld letters through it.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I’ve had similar conversations about my job.

        “What do you mean they don’t let you work remotely?”

        “Well, about 50% of my job is staffing the customer service desk and helping people use the computers and the copy machines. How do you propose I should do that remotely?”

        2. Hmm!*

          I taught remotely for a year and I would really like to invite the “all work can be done from home” crowd to try that one out for a week.

          There are plenty of things that fall into the category of “could theoretically be done remotely, but at a huge deficit” and I think that nuance gets flattened in so many of these conversations.

          1. Irish Teacher*

            I was thinking the exact same thing. We were online from March to late May 2020 and then from January to about March (different classes went back at different times) 2021 and yeaaah. Physically possibly but definitely NOT a substitute.

          2. Agile Phalanges*

            I don’t want to go to a dentist or surgeon who work from home. (I mean, paperwork and stuff is fine, but let’s keep procedures in the appropriate environment.)

          3. Alternative Person*

            This. As much as I like WFH for some aspects of my job as a teacher, there’s no substitute for face to face contact sometimes.

      3. AnotherLibrarian*

        I have also had this conversation. The work I do can not be done remotely. I get one work from home day which I devote to a million pieces of tiny admin work, but otherwise- my job involves paper.

      4. Alex (they/them)*

        I worked as an analytical chemist and could *occasionally* wfh if I was just doing data analysis and report writing. My dad kept suggested that anytime I needed to schedule appointments, I schedule them during the workday and then wfh. He did not understand how I couldn’t always plan to wfh even through most of my job is IN A LAB.

    20. irene adler*

      After 6 weeks on the job, start asking for a raise.
      Keep doing so weekly until you get it.
      Then wait 6 weeks and AGAIN start asking for a raise.

      1. Kelly L.*

        At the risk of taking the thread in a gumptiony direction, also “Ask for the job at the end of the interview!” Like…how do you even do this? Just go “Can I have this job plz?” And then what is the interviewer supposed to say? They’re probably not the only decision-maker. And they already know you’re interested, or else why are you there?

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I’ve done this, but it was only the one time. The interview had been really great and the way they described the job sounded like so much fun, and all the questions I had been planning to ask had already been answered, so when we got to the end and the interviewer asked if I had any questions, I blurted out “please my I have this job? It sounds like exactly what I’m looking for.” I did get it, but I really hope it was on my own merits as a candidate and not because I asked for it.

          1. inkheart*

            I had an interviewer (who would become my boss) say at the end of the interview, “You don’t seem very excited, do you even want this job? You haven’t explicitly said you want this job.”

            1. linger*

              How did you actually respond at the time?
              I wouldn’t have been able to stop myself from saying something like
              “To be fair, you haven’t said you want me for the job, either!”
              — which I suspect would not have ended quite as well.

    21. Zap R.*

      I went to school for broadcasting between 2008-2012. My profs told us to focus all of our creative efforts on short-form mobile/web content because “the one-hour TV drama is dead. People only want to watch short-form content on their phones now.” They also told us that no TV show could succeed without “cross-platform experiences like tie-in iPad games.”

          1. The Real Fran Fine*

            That’s why Fabulous said “sort of.” Of course, long form content is still a thing, but short form video content is becoming more prevalent and desirable, especially from a content marketing perspective. I mean, look at the success of TikTok.

    22. Bernice Clifton*

      Last time I was job searching, Indeed was sending me emails telling me to message jobs I had applied to in order to “stand out”.

    24. Well That's Fantastic*

      Right now, between a job vacancy and someone out on leave, I’m balancing responsibilities for three different jobs. Management is NOT expecting me to do the work of three people, but there are aspects of each job I need to make sure get done. There are things in my normal job I’ve been told can wait until we’re more fully staffed again, so it’s not just piling extra work on my normal job. Multiple people have told me to “just refuse” to do any aspects of the other jobs to make sure they fill the vacancy and “give yourself job security.” Not sure how refusing to do work would give me job security…

      1. Russian In Texas*

        Yeah, that drives me crazy.
        “Refuse to do X/Y/Z”
        Sure it may feel me better in the moment, sure won’t make me feel better when I am fired for not performing job duties.

    25. germank106*

      Absolute strangest advice from a former co-worker that is my age (I’m 62) when she found out that I had to go back to work after a few years of early retirement: “Don’t worry if you are confronted with new technology and new techniques. Being our age means you can just do the things you’ve always done without having to change.” SMH

    26. ILoveCoffee*

      If you get a PhD and decide you don’t want to go into research you can “just get” a job at a community college….
      I did manage to get a job at the community college but the positions are very competitive so there is no “just get the job” about it

    29. Alternative Person*

      I’m a teacher and my most recent previous manager was an advocate of no-textbook, no-worksheet lessons. Now, I’m all for minimal material, high communication lessons and even the occasional no-material lesson, but regular no-material? That just does not work for what we are teaching.

    30. Chauncy Gardener*

      When I got out of the military, I got ALL the way out. No reserves, no inactive ready reserves, nothing. (this was in 1990) My parents told me I wasn’t thinking about my future. I could retire from the reserves! I could have benefits!
      I said “I could get activated” And that could ruin my non-military school and career
      They were furious with me and said that reserve units never get activated. They brought it up relentlessly
      The next year, my old reserve unit got activated. TO THE MIDDLE EAST.
      They never said a word, but they also never brought it up again!

  3. Technical Writer Advice?*

    I’m looking to jump into technical writing as a new career path in my 40s. I’m in a get-out-NOW emergency situation with my current awful job as admin assist, and I’m tired of only ever being offered these min-wage administrative jobs for the past twenty-plus years, when I’ve spent my life learning and developing new skills.

    I’m quitting soon and taking a hiatus. Doctor’s orders; my health took a *huge* hit from current job. I’d like to use that free time I’ll have to train for technical writing, maybe also UX design, and make an entire career leap. (Not a spur-of-the-moment decision–I have a small history in published writing, creating and revising process documentation, that sort of thing.) But I’m pretty much a novice. I looked up some older threads on technical writing and UX here, but some of the info may be completely outdated by now.

    What training/certifications would you recommend/not recommend for these things, and what are reputable places to get that kind of learning? How/where do you get jobs in this? Anything you wish someone had told you? It’s a huge leap from office desk job to a completely different career, and one where I may end up largely or entirely self-employed, and I don’t want to mess it up.

    Thank you! :D

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      Twelve-odd years ago, I got certification through the UC Berkeley Extension program, which was 4 remote classes that focused on basic copyediting that you could then specialize with technical writing. I was told by book-industry professionals that it was widely recognized and respected. They were not cheap, but I felt I learned a lot, with a lot of hands-on practice and feedback.

      I went on to in-h0use trade editing and then part-time freelance work rather than fully technical freelance, so I don’t know how much transfers. But in both my work with freelancers and as a freelancer, it definitely helps if you can get at least part-time stable work with a single company, who can then recommend you to others. Networking is a huge factor in freelance work, so it will be much more feasible if you were going into technical writing within your current industry, for example, rather than switching straight out into something new.

      There’s lots of practical advice around here for freelancing in general (always! have! a! contract!), so definitely look for those.

      I wish you luck!

      1. Technical Writer Advice?*

        Copyediting is a really good complementary gateway. I’ll definitely be looking into brushing up on that as well. I’ll do some research on the Berkeley program.

        (I don’t know if I’ll end up freelancing, but it seems to happen a lot in that field, so I want to be prepared and really appreciate your advice!)

      2. The Real Fran Fine*

        it will be much more feasible if you were going into technical writing within your current industry, for example, rather than switching straight out into something new.

        This is the exact advice the instructors I had during my certificate program in technical writing gave to my cohort – all of them were professional TWs themselves, and all of them pivoted into the job at the same company they were already employed with (they all started in software as engineers or project managers).

    2. time for cocoa*

      It really depends on what part of the field(s) you want to enter. UXD is different from UX writing, which is different from technical writing. API technical writing is different from product technical writing is different from gov/aerospace/clearance technical writing.

      Do NOT get the Society of Technical Communication certifications (they have several levels). There was a dust-up in the recent past about STC trying to steamroll other programs to be seen as the One True Path, and public opinion of the org has soured. They’re seen as a bully and a dinosaur.

      It can’t hurt to learn Madcap Flare and Figma, though the recent Adobe acquisition has the industry in a frenzy and its userbase may be shaky, long-term.

      UX Writing Hub has a good free intro course, and KickassUX just released a free course this week that’s getting good press.

      1. Technical Writer Advice?*

        This is extremely helpful because trying to narrow down my options in a field I’m not an expert about has been daunting, to say the least. And thank you for the warning! If I’m spending my time and money to train, I don’t want to waste it on a subpar or known-bad entity that will just end up looking terrible on my resume.

      2. Ulla*

        Tech writer here: I was a senior member of STC and a chapter leader in several roles — came here to agree completely about not doing their certification program. I paid a LOT for just the book for the course and was unimpressed (sample content, paraphrased: “College graduates will find that modern offices use email to communicate”). It won’t help you. My mentor, who is an STC Fellow, also cautioned me not to waste my time and money on it. And he’s one of their biggest advocates!

        Do read the books and blogs by Ginny Redish. She’s amazing at UX stuff.

        1. Technical Writer Advice?*

          Oh, wow, yeah, STC does not seem like the way to go, so far. I think I’ve heard of Ginny Redish. I’ll be sure to check her out. Thanks!

          1. CindyLouWho*

            I so disagree, Technical Writer Advice?. I am an STC Associate Fellow, similar to Ulla. All my professional development comes from STC, and most of my jobs, too, through STC connections.

            Even if certification isn’t for you, there are several courses and webinars that will help you. The boot camp course I mentioned in my other comment is taught by an excellent instructor.

            1. Technical Writer Advice?*

              I’m going to be checking out all my options! There is very little I know about the industry and its tools other than the widest, least detailed picture.

      3. Lyudie*

        I’ve been out of the field for a few years, but my impression is that Madcap Flare is on its way out…not sure I’d spend a lot of time learning that. Markdown and DITA, maybe Adobe FrameMaker, are likely to be more useful. Learning a bit about authoring tools/technology is good, a lot of people think tech writers work in Microsoft Word etc. but I have almost always used other tools specifically for large, complicated documents that Word would choke on.

        I still get a lot of emails from recruiters about contracts, often 6 months and many are remote. A lot of TWs do contract work and it can be a great way to get experience in different fields/types of writing and it seems like it hasn’t slowed down much even with Covid.

        1. Technical Writer Advice?*

          This is good to know, thank you! All of the older resources I was seeing talked only about Madcap Flare. I’ll be sure to read up on whether it’s still among the needed tools of the trade these days or the near future.

          1. The Real Fran Fine*

            It is at some companies (I’ve seen it mentioned on job ads), but Adobe and DITA are becoming more prominent as the other poster mentioned. It wouldn’t hurt to learn the basics of all three just to be safe.

    3. Baeolophus bicolor*

      I can’t help you with UX or freelancing, but I got my masters in Technical Communication last year and just passed the 1 year mark at my technical writing job.

      There are technical writing concentrations and masters programs available, and one of those might be good. Depends on how much you like school and what your focus is. Happy to talk about my masters experience if you like. You don’t necessarily need formal education to get into the field but it is there.

      In terms of skills to focus on, I recommend focusing on understanding topic based writing/“every page is page one”, learning DITA (XML based tech writing language), and getting familiar with a DITA program like Oxygen. Not sure what the cost is for an individual copy of oxygen, but it’s a very good program and will be very helping in learning DITA. Two books that should be helpful: DITA 101 by Rockley, Manning, and Cooper. Developing Quality Technical Information by Carey, Lanyi, Longo, Radzinski, Rouiller, and Wilde.

      Once you’ve got a handle on the basics, I recommend finding an open source software project and developing documentation for it. Software documentation applies in a variety of fields, and working with open source communities is seen as a big bonus in many smaller tech companies.

      UX, as far as I can tell, is a specialized field that often requires some sort of specialized education and training.

      Good luck!

      1. Technical Writer Advice?*

        I’m planning to start with technical writing (and am narrowing down THAT big field even now) and possibly branch out into UX-related work later, if everything else is working out for me. I actually hadn’t given any thoughts to getting a master’s for it, but it’s been over 20 years since college graduation, so there’s probably a lot that’s different now and I don’t know much about. I cannot wait to dig into some of these books you’re recommending!

      2. Lyudie*

        Seconding DITA and Oxygen. I thought there was a free version of Oxygen but that doesn’t seem to be the case. It’s only $5 for the academic version so if you are looking at an online certificate etc. that might be an option.

    4. Mockingjay*

      You may not find a course on it, but research industry standards and scientific style guides. Tech writing, especially for software and coding, can often defy expectations for “normal” business writing. It’s very scoped and often has its own “lingo” – acronyms, terse sentences for procedures (Action ->Result), etc. You’ll learn or be given a style sheet on the job, but being aware that these stylistic conventions have purposes will make your transition to this field much easier.

      1. starsaphire*

        Fall in love with bullets.
        Start every step with a verb.
        Tighten down your writing.

        I agree re: DITA XML, but keep in mind that every company has different needs, so there’s no one true software you can learn that will make you a shoo-in. Some of the Big Tech companies hire “technical writers” but insist that they must be able to code, because surprise! they’re not TWs, they’re less-expensive programmers who will be “writing and editing” code.

        There are a lot of jobs out there, but most of them are contract, and many of those are short-term, so know what you’re getting into.

        One more thing: This is the job for which your resume and cover letter must be absolutely perfect. At a long-ago past job, any resume with more than one typo got thrown out – because catching typos WAS the job.

        1. Technical Writer Advice?*

          Re: your last paragraph: that one makes me laugh because the one time I WILL make a mistake is the one time I can’t, so proofreading everything ten times over (and then still finding a stray error a year later??) is something I have learned is my fate. XD It’ll be proofreading twenty times for relevant resumes for me….

        2. Tundra dog*

          Huh. I work at a “Big Tech Company” as a tech writer, and I do indeed need some programming understanding — not because my company wants me to be a programmer, but because the documentation I write is intended for programmers.

          But the bulk of my work is not writing code, it is writing words to tell developers how the code works.

          API documentation / developer documentation is definitely a niche within tech writing and it isn’t for everyone — but if you like some aspects of coding, but not enough to be an actual programmer, it can be a nice place to land.

          (Been a tech writer for close to 30 years now, though I did lots of other software work before landing in dev docs)

      3. Lyudie*

        Yup! Also writing in second person (“You can do blah blah blah”) and passive voice (sometimes you need to avoid blaming the user, even in error messages when they’ve done something dumb…and sometimes the thing doing the action is the nebulous “system” and/or doesn’t matter, so it actually works). Both felt super weird after so many years of learning not to do those things.

        Microsoft’s manual of style is online now, so looking through some of the more general sections of that can be helpful too. IIRC there’s a section on naming UI elements etc. that would be helpful for UX.

    5. CindyLouWho*

      STC offers a tech comm boot camp. Here’s the page with information: https://www.stc.org/education/online-courses/

      I have the foundation certification and will soon work toward practitioner. To me, without a tech comm degree, certification is worth the price, and I studied both independently and through an online course.

    6. Hen in a Windstorm*

      There’s an extremely active LinkedIn group for Technical Writers called Technical Writer Forum. Lots of good advice there from working professionals.

  5. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    Next week is the dreaded employee conference! Let’s pray I don’t have a panic attack or am off two weeks AGAIN with some bug. ( yes I have tried vitamins, walks AND yoga) I miss last year where people who needed to be in a big crowd could go and the rest of us could get some much needed work time in.

    2. Calamity Janine*

      though the conference may not be requiring masks at this point, i think the pandemic has given you a perfect opportunity to just show up wearing a mask and slinging hand sanitizer. god knows con crud is awful at the best of times. you can even say that you’re worried about the rather severe and intense flu and RSV seasons we’re having instead of covid!

      okay the real advice is to just sort of plaintively whisper hope for your survival. but even if i’ve encountered it in fan spaces, con crud is real and awful and i also have an immune system that likes to wait until the local bit of ick has simmered into potency before making sure i’m flat on my butt with it for two weeks solid (at which point the bug will have mutated just enough in the community so there’s a good chance i will end up getting it AGAIN)… though if you want an annoying little bit of health advice, if your sinuses like mine are inclined to self-destruct into green gunk at the drop of a hat, neti pot rinses are great. but having your doctor check if you need the pneumonia vaccine is also really useful. despite being quite young, my doc got suspicious and checked my levels and it turned out that i did, in fact, hella need them! so that has helped!

      …of course, speaking of vaccines, i’m not saying you should go get your covid booster like a day or day and a half before the start of conference so that when your immune system reacts to that live-fire exercise, you can go “oh nooo looks like i’m running a fever, guess i’ll just have to work at home while y’all go”… but… if you wanted to engage in some unprofessional chicanery LOL… (okay don’t actually do this thing. that bit of advice is for entertainment purposes only. do not attempt at home, only appropriate for professionals in controlled environments, et cetera,)

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Poor health club unite! I rinse my sinuses a lot but it’s the fatigue that gets me. I’m hoping to avoid the eating inside too.

        1. Calamity Janine*

          when will science invent a replacement sinuses where we can just pop them out and slam them in the dishwasher on sanitize setting… only then will we truly be living in the space-age future…

          you’re probs already on top of it, but when it comes to fatigue, maybe try also slamming some allergy meds. not the drowsy type lol, but it’s not inconceivable that there’s something in or around conference centers that you’re mildly allergic to or is mildly irritating to your body which then gives the nasty germs a huge opening. i mean hell why not really, con crud is one of those things where throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks is where you end up eventually LOL

    3. Love to WFH*

      How _tragic_ that you’ll be sniveling and coughing on Sunday night, and obviously can’t go to an in-person event when you have symptoms that might be COVID. It’s too bad that home tests are reliable.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              I assume a truck that’s jacked up on big wheels. What some of my relatives from further south refer to as a “hillbilly-go-faster.” Bonus points for a rollbar with floodlights. And an American flag or eagle in the rear window.

      3. DisneyChannelThis*

        I have so many questions now! I’ve only heard that phrase used to mock women with ridiculous hair, was it meant sincerely? Did the email owner have large hair??

          1. DEJ*

            Unfortunately this same philosophy is also used by the extreme religious group the FLDS (the Warren Jeffs group) that the higher the hair, the more righteous you are.

    2. urguncle*

      A customer had her entire multi-day destination wedding schedule in her email signature for months before her actual wedding.

        1. urguncle*

          I can only assume the implication being if you needed her to answer a question during her ceremony, you’d know exactly what villa to go to.

      3. Jessica Ganschen*

        Oh boy. I could see making that a signature for wedding-related correspondence among the wedding party/to guests, maybe, if you’re getting a lot of questions about it and don’t want to keep repeating yourself. But as the default signature for everything? Whew.

    3. Over It*

      Can’t wait to read these! Not the worst I’ve ever seen, but recently I exchanged some emails with someone who has a less common spelling of a common name, and put instructions on how to spell it in her signature. Think “Rachael with an ‘ae!'” then the rest of her normal signature block. Not egregious on its own, but she proceeded to misspell my first name in every single one of her emails to me. My entire, very short, first name is part of both my email address and signature.

          1. Calamity Janine*

            a variant: keep the ae. put it in way too much. true malicious compliance hours. it’s with an ae, and you’ll MAKE it be with an ae, so help you god! (for style points, go find the unicode character for that ligature… æ or bust!) (if that æ doesn’t show up in comments as too special of a character, i’m going to look like booboo the fool, mind you, but oh well.)

            Good morning Raechaehael, as per my last email…

        2. Flash Packet*

          My name has a single consonant in a place where there are usually two. My manager cannot get it right for the life of him. After a few gentle corrections I started replying to him by adding extra consonants to various parts of his name.

          “Thanks, Nnathan!”
          “Natthan, FYI the XYZ section is ready for your review.”
          “Hi Nathhan, do you know how to do Thing in SAP?”

          Now he spells my name correctly about 70% of the time. Any time he gets it wrong, I make sure my reply has a misspelling of his name.

      2. WheresMyPen*

        Every time you email only her, add an explanation on how to spell your name too! Play her at her own game!

    4. AnotherOne*

      I didn’t receive the email but was shown it. It involved a picture of Betty Boop, there was color, and a “fun” font.

      The idea of having that as your work signature, even at our laid back job, floored me.

    5. Calamity Janine*

      three words and they are “professional Blingee signature”

      though if i’m being honest at some point showing up with enough glitter sparkles in a gif becomes sort of a refuge in audacity. it’s like seeing someone riding their lawnmower on the freeway at a 60mph clip as they cruise in the carpool lane. is it not something they should be doing? oh absolutely, that’s not where lawnmowers go, you shouldn’t be in that lane driving a lawnmower. but i cannot help having a bit of respect and amazement for someone who will simply go out and do that. if you’re going to do something wrong, you may as well do it as stylishly and strangely as possible, i guess?

      true Bunny-Ears Lawyer energy, though i’m not going to actually link that TVtropes page so everyone will be able to work today instead of tipping headfirst into the wiki warp zone. (or maybe that’s just me and my hundred-plus tabs, but still.)

    6. ONFM*

      I have a coworker who has a quote from himself as part of his email signature. That’s pretty off-putting.

    9. ursula*

      I regularly encounter senior government employees and/or legal consultants with embarrassingly basic inspirational quotes in their professional email signatures. Nothing like receiving a deeply petty email from some lady in accounting with Ghandi in her sig.

      1. I'm Done*

        Better than the religious ones of my former colleagues. I worked for a federal agency that apparently thinks it doesn’t have to comply with the separation of church and state. Meetings having the chaplain saying prayers, religious pamphlets right in the entrance of our office, etc. I just couldn’t escape. I seriously thought about filing a formal complaint. But it’s pervasive throughout that whole agency and ehen I said anything I got looks like I was a two headed sheep.

    10. Constance Lloyd*

      The content was standard, but the color scheme followed Disney’s The Little Mermaid (purple and teal) and it finished off with a stock photo of a kitten in a meadow.

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        Actually, worse was a high school athletic coach whose signature included an inspirational quote from a college athletic coach who had years prior been embroiled in a child abuse cover up.

    14. Bernice Clifton*

      Papyrus font with a flashing Minions gif.

      A bible verse praying for Obama’s death when he was president.

      A link to the person’s MLM wine website.

      After the name, where some people put their pronouns in parentheses, he put (American / Patriot)

      2. Watry*

        I don’t know if I’d be able to stop the malicious compliance on that last one. “Well, american says american can’t do this because there’s too much on patriot plate…”

        1. Bernice Clifton*

          For real tho. The worst part is it’s a client and no one else at that company I’ve dealt with has any pronouns in their signature, so it’s not mandatory, he just feels trolling apparently.

      3. Dark Macadamia*

        The only thing funnier than any one of these is if it was one person with all of them. Omg.

        1. Bernice Clifton*

          The first time the Minions person emailed my counterpart and me, I dropped the gif of Phoebe on Friends screaming “My Eyes!”

        1. Bernice Clifton*

          Yes, I always cite these examples whenever I hear someone complain about that their work mandates designs and wording of email signatures. “This is why we can’t have nice things!”

    15. PenNamesAreFun*

      It is very common for some admin in the school system I’m leaving to sign their emails with

      Name
      Position
      Email

      Recently Read and Loved: Book Recommendation with a link
      Currently listening to: Podcast recommendation
      Currently reading: Book Recommendation with a link

      I don’t need every email to be an attempt to prove how in touch with trends and how smart you are. Also, your signature is longer than your email.

    17. Anonymouse*

      Name
      Pronouns
      Phone
      Fax
      Address
      Website
      Logo
      Rankings graphic (#1 for something)
      Rankings graphic (#4 for something)
      List of five other rankings
      #2 for something
      #3 for something
      #5 for something
      #5 for something
      #6 for something

      1. Anonymouse*

        Oh shoot. I forgot they also had:
        Job title
        Office name
        Company name

        It was easily a full sheet of paper if you printed the email out.

    18. AnonyNurse*

      I never did this, because I am a grown up. But I was responsible for implementing a huge, state-wide system change that was generally well received but a lot of “but what if…” and “can I instead…”

      I told my boss I was going to put a GIF of Miranda Priestly saying “No, no, that wasn’t a question” in my email signature.

    19. Elle Woods*

      Former coworker had one which looked like it was created in about 1995–neon colors, flashing text, Curlz font.

    20. Flash Packet*

      Eight dense Bible scriptures in italicized, cursive font, and a tag line at the bottom of it all, in bold, 18-pt, military-stencil font: “!!!!TGBATG!!!! (TO GOD BE ALL THE GLORY)”

      I mean, that seems a bit excessive for an AP clerk in an outpost of an international manufacturing company. Like, maybe just have the company logo and the corporate AP contact info in case a vendor needs immediate assistance.

      Plus, we all know that if I put the seven fundamental tenets of The Satanic Temple in my signature block with “!!!HAIL SATAN!!!” at the bottom in 18-point font, I’d be whisked into HR so fast my head would spin.

      1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        I’m in Facebook jail for 30 days for praying to Satan on Christian ads that constantly showed up on MY feed.

        1. Flash Packet*

          Farking FB.

          A couple of weeks ago my feed was suddenly full of Christian ads. The ratio was 1 ultra-right religious ad for every 2 posts from my friends and groups. I reported every single one of them as either “Violence” or “Fake News”, depending on whichever one was closest to the top of the list of choices.

          I didn’t comment on any of them because that gets FB what it wants: engagement. If I comment, FB will notify the people on my friends list. If they like or comment on what I’ve said, FB will notify the people on *their* friends list. And so on, and so on.

          It was so wild because even the dumbest, most poorly written algorithm would be able to pick up that I am *not* the target audience for anything religious, let alone right-wing douchebaggery.

    21. All Het Up About It*

      It’s a different type of worst email signature, but at a past job we had a rebranding and Comms sent out a document with new email signatures for everyone. I diligently copy and pasted mine in to Outlook and began using it.

      Weeks and weeks later I realized that my own name was misspelled in said email signature that I had be using on all correspondence. My own first name.

  7. Never Really Safe*

    In spring I left a dead-end, underpaid job at a rock-solid privately-owned company, for a promotion and large salary bump at a huge international publicly-owned company. Now Q3 results came out at my new job, shareholders are gathering pitchforks, and the C suite is promising tons of cuts and layoffs to fix the stock price.

    I knew the difference intellectually before this: a company owned by generations of the same family makes long-term decisions and plans decades in advance, while an F500 cares about results from quarter to quarter. But living this reality is incredibly stressful, and while I’m making 50k more at this job, I didn’t realize how much I would miss that feeling of safety. I’m a careful spender and I’m building an emergency fund as quickly as possible, but (as with most Americans) I and my spouse desperately need medical coverage.

    I know I’m not special, and this is just the state of business for most employees. So, how do you get used to this constant undercurrent of anxiety in your working life?

    1. the cat's ass*

      It’s so stressful, I’m sorry. I’ve always made sure i had a cushion for about 6 mo of emergency $ and went through the insurance exchange in my state when i was unexpectedly laid off. And I’m sort of in denial about it otherwise.

    3. AnotherOne*

      yeah, that’s my fear. I want to move from university admin to private sector. But my job is really secure now.

      The private sector is the wild west in comparison. And with this economy? It’s scary to think about.

    4. Estimator*

      You just get used to it. I work in construction, my industry is stable but not always the jobs themselves. There was a period where I worked at 4 places with 3.5 years due to customer contract changes. Many of us move companies as large customer contracts shift. It’s terrifying at first and then you get used to it. Build a network you can reach out to, I’ve worked with the same 100 people in various configurations for 15 years and we help each other out as needed.

      1. Hillary*

        I second getting used to it. I keep a financial cushion, I’m always upgrading my skills, and I know my value in the market. What’s the worst that can happen? Even when I got fired I got a 10% raise at the next job. I’m trying to also not give them any more than they give me, but that’s a constant work in progress. My partner and I work at different companies in different industries to increase our overall safety net.

        I also remind myself rock solid private companies are great until they aren’t. The owner retires or gets divorced, or maybe the company doesn’t keep up and suddenly doesn’t have customers. The changes tend to be less frequent but much more shocking.

        signed – ten companies in nineteen years

        1. Never Really Safe*

          I also remind myself rock solid private companies are great until they aren’t. The owner retires or gets divorced, or maybe the company doesn’t keep up and suddenly doesn’t have customers. The changes tend to be less frequent but much more shocking.

          There’s no way for me to hint at this using llamas or teacups, so I’ll just say it outright: The old company is owned by European royalty, and has been handed down for centuries. There is just no way it will be torn apart in the way you’re suggesting, short of complete geopolitical collapse.

          1. Violet Rose*

            Well that’s nice I suppose, but it’s not the case for the vast majority of companies of that kind so most people won’t be equipped to answer your question if that’s a factor.

          2. LadyB*

            I worked at one of those. You can still be made redundant, or jobs can change as the Monarch changes. The organisation/institution continues, but in a different form.

          3. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

            Cue a European geopolitical collapse caused by Russian invasion of Ukraine.

            I mean, we hope not, but it’s a real possibility we’re all looking at potential WWIII

    5. Love to WFH*

      You asked a big question. This is just answer to your (legitimate) fear about health insurance. You can sign up on the ACA exchange immediately if you lose your employer-provided health coverage. If your income has dropped to the unemployment insurance amount, your premium should be subsidized.

      1. TCO*

        A note on private plans purchased through the exchange market: those ACA subsidies are tax credits and are based on your annual household income, not your income in the moment. So even if your income drops temporarily that doesn’t mean that you’d automatically be eligible for a tax credit, especially if you have a spouse still working.

        But yes, it’s possible to buy health insurance outside of an employer’s offerings (or to purchase COBRA coverage from a former employer). It just may not be cheap.

        1. darlingpants*

          BUT Medicaid coverage is based on monthly income, not yearly income! Not super helpful if your spouse is still working, but if you’re single or the breadwinner health care is freeeeee (in states that have expanded Medicaid).

    6. Lora*

      If there is some kind of professional society you can join, do that. They usually have a lot of networking type events and guest speakers + networking hours and that’s how you learn about new startups looking for hires, facility expansions and rumors of job openings. That way you always know the general trends in the field, and often if one company is exiting a site or a space, there’s someone else who is expanding. Or if there’s a general downturn in Subfield 1, Subfield 2 is holding steady or hiring and you can talk to someone about switching.

      That said, there are definitely fields which are just inherently unstable and have huge peaks and valleys – petroleum engineering, certain types of basic research that simply become unpopular (virology and bacteriology were really boring, thought to be nearly extinct fields about 10 years ago), publishing / news broadcasting has gone through some huge transitions, I’m sure there’s a lot more examples. I personally dealt with the ups and downs by becoming more of a generalist and going back to school for various and sundry degrees that could be applied to lots of things, but most of my friends who are in highly specific fields have a spouse with a steady income or family money.

    7. Bess*

      Build the cushion and then remind yourself that you have the cushion every time you get anxious. Remember there are safety nets as well, such as unemployment, COBRA, etc.

      I work in an industry that long term is going to see reduction and declines. For now, the benefits of working in this area outweigh the risks, and I have significant transferable professional skills, and try to remind myself of that every time I get nervous.

      And what would the risks be of staying in that other job? Seems significant. Stability isn’t always the best choice.

    8. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      Be networking. CONTINUALLY. If your line of work has any professional organizations, join them, and participate in them. Keep your CV handy. Even if your job is “safe”.

      I don’t know what you do – but I was in the computer/IS/IT business. After a short unemployment period, I not only worked my tail off – I *buried myself* in a professional computing organization. I had contacts, and built a professional reputation in the industry specialty. I never worried much after that.

      Yes, it is stressful, but you also were probably getting by well on your combined (with your spouse’s) incomes. Contrast your situation against the one-income household.

      But NETWORKING NETWORKING NETWORKING. I retired a year ago – just short of 70.
      I still get calls and e-mails from time to time.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      After you weather a few of these, you can develop an attitude that will help you get through it.

      For me, I often thought to myself that if I behaved this way then I would shown the door. “Boss, you know what? My 3rd Q isn’t looking good and I think I can only show up for work half the time. If things continue as they are in the next few quarters I think I can only show up 30% of the time. Yeah, I know you need productivity- but if I just don’t have it then that’s the answer. You will have to deal. Yeah, I know you will lose Big Important Contract and planet earth will stop revolving. But hey, that’s life.”

      It takes strength to lead. Good leadership includes keeping your people working. This means putting thought into what you are doing so the people can stay working.

      Growing up it was a bfd if an employer said they were going to lay people off. Now… it’s just Tuesday.

      Loyalty is a two way street.

    10. Flash Packet*

      In a meeting with my mentor last month, I expressed concern for what now appears to be a certain economic downturn, and she said that the way she has dealt with all the ones she has lived through was to be the best Whatever she has been hired to be.

      The idea is that, if/when cuts come, they’ll come for the less productive people first. If the cuts get deeper, then someone excellent like her will have a solid record of accomplishments to make her attractive to a new employer.

      On the one hand, it makes sense. Why would a company get rid of their best employee in any department if they have a choice in who gets laid off?

      On the other hand, it means being in constant competition with your peers, to make sure you’re always the one floating on top. Which seems like it would come with a constant level of stress and anxiety, and could negatively color relationships with peers.

      For me, I deal with it kind of the same way I deal with the knowledge that I and everyone I care about will die. It’s there. It can happen. It’s a good idea to have a plan for what to do when it does happen. Nothing and no one is ever truly safe. From anything. And you (the general you) can be frozen with fear and anxiety at the inevitability of it all, or you can choose to set it aside and make the most of what you’ve got now.

      I was laid off *twice* in the Great Recession. It sucks. I’m sorry.

      1. SofiaDeo*

        I never thought if it as “constant competition with my peers” so much as “best version of myself”. Because even the most highly competent rock star will get let go if employer is crazy, and only interested in cost cutting, to keep the doors open as inexpensively as possible. (Ask me how I know) You just have to learn to live with it….like there is a statistical probability of getting into a car accident when one drives, but you can’t focus on it. Same at work, I think.

    11. Hen in a Windstorm*

      Make a plan. Then make a plan B. Then C. This is what I did in 2020 when shit went sideways. I literally wrote out the worst things I could imagine happening at the same time (like me being fired, so no unemployment, and my husband becoming disabled), and the steps we would take to deal with them. One, it helps remind yourself you aren’t really facing “the worst thing possible” and two, when you have a plan, you can stop worrying, because worry is all about uncertainty.

      1. Dimity Hubbub*

        I thoroughly recommend Hen in a Windstorm’s approach. I applied it myself some years back when a previously ok job went full on toxic. I had options A through D, D was ‘I’ve been fired. Now what?’ I was sure i needed to think about that BEFORE it might happen since I wouldn’t have the spare time to panic if it did!
        Whenever I started to panic I reminded myself about The Plan and that all I needed to do was keep on with it. It helped me break down the various horrible tasks (e.g. redoing my resume) into manageable chunks in service to The Plan.

  8. A Genuine Scientician*

    I work in higher education at a public university, so all salary information is publicly searchable. My institution just did salary adjustments, and so we have new numbers starting this month.

    Someone in my unit who started at the same time I did, teaches in the same courses I do, and has consistently been rated as a lower performer than I am (they’ve been on a PIP basically the entire past several years, and have been described as being adequate as a teaching assistant but not performing at faculty levels; I’ve gotten highly positive reviews while doing a lot more in these same courses than they do) is now somehow making several hundred dollars more per year than I am. It’s not a huge amount financially, but it’s a pretty heavy blow psychologically.

    I know the standard advice is that you shouldn’t care all that much about the salaries of other people at the same company, but is this a case where I’d be justified going to our mutual boss and asking “Can you help me make sense of what’s going on here?” Especially in light of said boss telling us when the salary adjustments happened that if we had any questions about these adjustments to come to him?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Better angle is to come asking for a raise with several salary comparisons. Make the narrative “I do XYZ really well, I should be paid more and here’s some numbers to show it”, not “George sucks at his job and earns more than me, I should be paid more”. Use that salary website get a few more examples, use similar salary website for other public universities as a reference too.

      1. anon for this*

        And consider the path of asking HR for an equity review/justification. I’m going to make a couple bets here, privately, based on my own experience in academia and sharing an office with a dude who typeset math homework problems while listening to football games with frequent breaks to browse vacation destinations, eat snacks etc, who was paid the same as PhD myself teaching grad-level classes, mentoring undergrad and grad researchers, writing grants including an R01 that got funded (not that I was allowed to get any of that money because the structure of my contract precluded buying out any time), etc etc. I quit, to be frank.

      2. Just Want A Nap*

        I agree with this. I recently found out someone incompetent was making more than I was (before he was fired).
        My boss told me that this infuriated him when he found out after the incompetent worker was fired and practiced asking for a raise with me because my annual review with grand boss is in the next couple weeks.

    2. HigherEdAdminista*

      If you have a good relationship with your boss, it can’t hurt to ask.

      Based on my experience working in public universities, there is no merit behind the salary; it is all qualifications and time. If this person has been there longer, they could be making a big more money. If this person has a higher degree, they might have been classed higher by HR.

      However, things can be different at each university and it can’t hurt to ask. Particularly, if you have similar seniority and degrees to this person, you want to make sure there isn’t an error in your own classification.

      1. Annony*

        My guess is that there is some sort of checklist involved. They probably aren’t looking at ratings, so they have you as teaching the same classes and having been there the same amount of time. If she is on an extra committee or the advisor for a student group it could be what caused her to get slightly more. It’s definitely worth talking to your boss about it.

        1. A Genuine Scientician*

          She’s on no committees, I’m on several, including the advisory committee for our unit.

    3. KatEnigma*

      I would take it as a sign of dysfunction that you are privy to a peer’s PIP and review feedback.

      1. to varying degrees*

        In some places, especially ones that have broad public records access, it would be a matter of public record available upon request.

      2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Depends on how they came by that info…the coworker may have been openly telling folks in a brag that he can’t get fired, or lamenting that “they have it out for him” etc. People who operate under a PIP for 7 years are usually spectacularly clueless and indiscreet in my experience.

      3. A Genuine Scientician*

        The main reason I know is that both the other person and I were given an initial temporary contract at the same time. Mine was made permanent a year later; they were given a new temporary contract. There was a unit-wide discussion about whether to offer that person a permanent contract or not, and the consensus was initially not to due to performance concerns. Our mutual boss also asked for feedback about how the other person was performing from the development teams on both of the courses we both work in; I am on those development teams, while the other person is not. Information about the PIP was discussed in those settings.

        We both have PhDs in our subject, and were hired here at the same time; our salaries were initially identical.

        1. Bunny Watson*

          I’m guessing what likely happened then in this case is that they got a new contract a year after you then. New starting salaries increased in that time but as you know in academia there is never an effort to address salary compression so your salary was not raised. We frequently have new people who make more than those who started within the last several years. I’ve had success asking for raises so I would go ahead and ask (though I know that is not the norm).

    4. jane's nemesis*

      IS the standard advice that you shouldn’t care all that much about other people’s salaries? Because I think it’s pretty important from an equity and fairness standpoint to care. Especially since your employer makes salary information publicly searchable. (I worked in higher ed at a public university and we were not privy to what our colleagues made unless we specifically shared with each other).

      Given your boss said that you SHOULD go to him with questions, I say definitely go to him with this question!

    5. Esmeralda*

      It’s academia and the salary info is public. I would ask my boss directly about the difference. I would not point to anything specific about the other worker’s performance, because you shouldn’t be privy to that info (even if everyone knows). Point to your own numbers and accomplishments.

      If Mediocre Max is male and you are female, you can bring this up — I would say something like, “I’m concerned about the equity issue, too.” Your boss knows exactly what that means. You can ask if the dept is doing an equity review; if the answer is no (or “next year” or “uuuuhhhh, maybe”), then ask boss if they know what the procedure is to request an equity review from HR.

      That couple hundred bucks multiplies over the years.

      BTW I’m at the same rank as a number of other folks in my office but am better paid than almost all of them, including some folks on the leadership team (asst directors). That’s because I retained an increase from years ago for a promotion that I later gave back so to speak and because I’ve been here since dinosaurs roamed the earth. I’ve heard folks over the years ask why I was getting more (some people are highly indiscreet, and loud). I always find those folks for a 1-on-1 and explain why, and encourage them to ask for a raise/look for a position that pays better elsewhere on campus, because that’s the best way to earn more $.

      1. to varying degrees*

        Same. Something similar happened in my previous workplace. When the persona in question brought it to their attention they did a salary re-adjustment (it was low enough it didn’t have to go through formal approval).

    6. Lorraine*

      Did your colleague receive travel money or overload pay? In my state, what you can see is not base salary but everything earned and that includes reimbursement for travel and conferences and if you got paid extra for teaching an extra class.

      1. A Genuine Scientician*

        Here, what you see is base salary. I’ve gotten overload pay at various times; it’s never shown up in this viewable system. Same with travel stuff, etc.

  9. Pet project new owner*

    In my small team, McKenna and I are two senior staff who functionally contribute to the unit with the only other staff being the Director and admin assistant.

    McKenna is covering another post in another unit (due to a mat leave) and is back soon. When we worked together, McKenna and I were quite congenial and had a good rapport. Although McKenna did have a habit of taking on extra tasks that they didn’t have the bandwidth for. One such item is an Intranet page update. I offered to help McKenna on this, to be collegial, with them taking the lead. I really don’t have the knowledge or skills on the specifics to move this task ahead and just provide minor level support when needed.

    During this leave, this project has been on the back burner. However during a recent meeting, the Director indicated that McKenna wouldn’t be able to work on this project when she is back and it is with me now. And that she cannot commit any more hours to it. So, now this project is on my lap and I don’t know the ins and outs.

    The Director doesn’t also know about the details of the Intranet project either as it was solely led by McKenna.

    Do I need to suck it up and take on this Intranet project even though it’s not really in my job description, and I am already busy, even though was a pet project of McKenna….

    1. Venus*

      I would interpret this as the Director doesn’t want it to move forward. You don’t have to do anything, and McKenna shouldn’t.

    2. BAgpuss*

      I would be inclined to say tothe director that you are not familiar with the project , having only provided minimal support to McKenna and that you don’t really have the skills or knowledge about the specifcs to be able to move it forward. Perhaos say that you dont feel that you are the right person to deal with it, and suggest that it is put on the back burner until McKEnna is in a position to resume work on it, when she has fewer more urgent projects to deal with .(And if the director pushes for you to do it, then perhaps ask which other tasks she wants you to drop to take this on, and what training you will be provided withas you don’t currently have the skills or knowledge to enable you to take it on)

    3. AnotherOne*

      honestly, i’d ask. be clear that you are happy to arrange a time for McKenna to explain how to handle this project but that you don’t really know anything about coding/whatnot.

      If this is something, the director wants dropped or back burnered, he’ll let you know.

    4. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      Is the Interanet SharePoint based? If so it’s pretty easy to pick up. I’m working on one now for everyone who reports to my grand-boss. It’s not what I was hired for and didn’t have any experience in, but with some YouTube tutorials and trial and error, it’s not too bad.

      If it’s a matter of time, I’d ask for some direction from your boss what the timeline is for certain deliverables.

    5. Annony*

      I think you should tell your boss that while you were happy to provide minor level support to McKenna, this project is far outside your job description and skill set. Let him know exactly how far you feel you can take it (even if that is “I wouldn’t even know where to start”) and see what he says.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I got hit with a project that would add 2 hours to my work day, every day.

      What I did was let the boss know that I needed X in order to do the job (this involved training so paying for courses and paying for time to take the courses) and since it was very clear that it would add 2 hours to my day, I needed to be paid for those two hours.

      End of problem.
      The whole thing just dried up and blew away. It was almost magical.

  10. AnotherSarah*

    I am a professor, and I also volunteer my professional expertise for my religious community. I’m looking for scripts to address a delicate issue–I tend towards being very open and blunt, but my local community is not that way, and I need to act accordingly. A few years ago, I had a student (in a few courses) who was quite difficult to work with. Talking over me, answering questions directed at me, resistant to feedback, etc. She graduated and I breathed a sigh of relief. I addressed these issues with her from time to time but nothing changed. This summer, she said something quite egregious on social media that caused myself and some colleagues quite a lot of grief (essentially, spreading a rumor about a colleague of mine).

    Now we are both on a volunteer group of people helping plan a series of events. I am happy to work on the event and think that I would do a good job; my area of expertise is really needed for the program. But I absolutely cannot work with this person after this summer. I have asked the main event coordinator for a phone call next week, but I’m at a loss of what to say. I fear coming off as petty when I was this woman’s professor and she’s so much younger/just starting out. What I would say in a place where being blunt is more acceptable would be “I’m sorry, but Jane caused a lot of issues this summer for a close colleague of mine, it was very unprofessional, and I really don’t think that I can work with her closely on this program.” That won’t fly. Other ideas? TIA!

    1. A Genuine Scientician*

      Can you explain why it wouldn’t fly? I’m willing to trust your judgment that it wouldn’t — you know your community better than I do — but the reasons why might be important for figuring out a better framing.

      1. AnotherSarah*

        I would say that this community (not just the religious community–the region in general) is known for being indirect, passive-aggressive. People avoid directness like the plague. In this group and others, I’ve worked on an idea forever only to have it not go anywhere, because no one would tell me that there was no budget for it, or no one else liked it, etc. I’ve seen that happen to others as well. I’m worried that my choices are 1) be direct and be seen as being “mean” or 2) flake out, citing vague issues, and be thought of as unreliable. Neither would be good for my communal and professional reputation and neither is true.

        1. I edit everything*

          Even though the community is passive-aggressive, this situation calls for directness, and you could open with something like “I need to be direct about an issue involving Clarabell,” say something positive about her, if you have anything at all (“I admire her passion for our mission”), then use your wording, which I thought was excellent. You’re talking about you not being able to work with her, not saying “Clarabell is a dishonest twerp and shouldn’t be working on this project.” Then propose some suggestions for how you can contribute while on a different orbit from Clarabell. And ask for clear communication in return. If they decide not to have you involved in the project, that’s fine, but you’d like to be told directly and not shut out or left waiting.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          I’d have zero patience for the setting, but that’s me.

          It seems to me that if they are P/A with you then they will be P/A with Jane also.

          The problem is not Jane. The problem is their inability to filter out rotten apples. So if it wasn’t Jane then it would be someone else.

          I’d say limit your time. I have no idea what the project is, but let’s say it’s reasonable that a 6 month window would do it. You could say, “I can commit for 6 months. At the end of six months I need to attend to other things.” We can do sprints easier than we can do marathons.

          Going the other way, you could always say, “I believe i was asked to join because of my specialty X. When you get to the part when you are ready to do X, call me. I will come.”

          If you get stuck, nothing works, never forget the power of the silent stare from across the table/room when she does something stupid. Just stare at her as if to say, “You’re doing it again!!!”.

        3. JSPA*

          “Awkward” is a good word. So is, “unfortunate.”

          “There’s a complex professional history, and ongoing inescapable awkwardness.”

          “I’m still processing my responses to some unfortunate media assertions that caused pain in the department. To avoid bringing awkwardness or discord into this place of mutual refuge, it would be best for us to maintain some distance, for now.”

          “I’m still in the process of regaining equilibrium and serenity after a recent unfortunate contretemps that rocked our department. For the sake of mutual equilibrium, let’s ensure she and I are on different teams.”

          “Normally I’m thrilled to have a student become a peer. However, this particular student-professor relationship isn’t yet suited to that situation.”

          Faith community volunteering often involves contributions from people who are not professional, in the usual sense of the word, so I’d avoid leaning hard on that.

          Equally, faith communities tend to go big on second chances, forgiveness and growth.

          Talking about your point in the process and about mutual benefit will probably work better.

          Or, y’know, step back… let the student float or flail… let them know you’ll have time set aside to step in if the student bails on them.

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      If it’s a “her or me” situation, and you are really willing to bow out (and I don’t blame you!), it might be less adversarial to “take the blame,” as it were? “I’ve worked with Jane before, and her disrespectful behavior / poor judgment not only caused professional and personal harm to colleagues of mine, but I have found her resistant to feedback and unwilling to change. I really want to work with and support this program, but I cannot trust myself to work professionally with Jane in this capacity, so I’ll have to withdraw my participation.”

      That would give them the opening to make the choice and invite you back, or give you a graceful way to 1) warn them and 2) keep your sanity.

      1. Isben Takes Tea*

        Ah, well seeing your comment above, this may be a “there’s no magic script” situation. If the community is socially dysfunctional enough that it doesn’t allow for directness (let alone conflict), and the only way to “maintain your reputation” is to passively (or enthusiastically) endure whatever circumstances you find yourself in, then you have to choose which pain is worth your ultimate goal: the pain of working with Jane and maintaining (possibly) your current reputation, or possibly being seen as “mean” but never having to work with Jane again.

        But at least making a clear, intentional choice ahead of time will help you endure, either way. Good luck!

      2. AnotherSarah*

        Ooh, this wording is better! I’m still pondering the question above, and what’s “mean/too direct” and what’s acceptable and why, but this somehow sounds much better, putting Jane’s behavior out there as a fact that’s actually quite separate from me and my feelings about her. Thanks!

      3. Bagpuss*

        I like his approach, although rather than ‘I cannot trust myself to work professionally.. ‘ I would suggest maybe ‘I don’t think we could work productively together’,or, ‘I don’t feel I ‘could work productively with Jane’ and then go on with the ‘ so I’ll have to withdraw my participation’ – I think saying you can’t trust yourself to work professionally could come back to bite you, especially if it were taken out of context, and it still leave it ipeopne for them to say that they will decline Janes’s offer to be involved, if they decide thatthey would rather have you, but you’ve gracefully withdrawn and left it up to them to either ask her to go and ask you back, or involve her and make do without you this time.
        If you want to soften it you can add in something such as saying that you respect her enthusiasm, or whatever on those lines you feel you can say and be hinest about!

      4. Esmeralda*

        Or even leave Jane out of it: Im so so sorry, but I won’t be able to work on X event! I was looking forward to it, but I have to attend to some family things / work things/ health things/ something that they’ll buy and won’t pry into too much.

        Just passive yourself out of there.

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      Could you say that you would probably end up treating Jane as a student instead of an equal co-worker? And that wouldn’t be good for her growth in the area?

      1. AnotherSarah*

        Yeah that could also work, encouraging the program leader to just have us work on separate aspects. Good idea, thanks!

    4. anona-ope*

      If it’s a series of events, is your and Jane’s expertise needed at every event? Or would it be feasible to delicately figure out which events she’s volunteering for and self-select to work on portions where she won’t be? In which case your call be about, “I’m excited to contribute but need to be smart about where I distribute my time. Could we talk about staffing / workload distribution?”

      In general I feel like I shouldn’t endorse being so coy, but I also come from a passive cultural region, so I do get where you’re coming from in wanting to avoid it. That being said, the person who wants to avoid the awkward is almost always the one who feels it more intensely and thinks about it longer after the moment passes. I don’t think you’d be super out of line in addressing it more frankly, and I don’t think it would ruin your reputation forever either.

    5. Observer*

      To be honest, I think that the director needs to know that she’s difficult to work with and that she has spread false rumors in the past.

      I’d be tempted to say something like “I don’t know if I could watch her being so disrespectful to people. And I would definitely worry about people’s reputations being harmed by false rumors that she might spread.” But that’s probably even worse.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        That’s the problem with a group that’s this conflict avoidant. AnotherSarah wants to protect people from being hurt, but if she does that, she’s mean and heartless and faces unpleasant social consequences. But the person who’s spreading the harmful rumors just gets to keep spreading them with no consequences at all. An absence of conflict isn’t necessarily peace.

    6. Irish Teacher.*

      Could you say something like that you feel that it would be difficult for you and Jane to work together due to an incident related to a mutual acquaintance? That’s awkward phrasing, but I mean rather than making it clear she did something wrong, just imply some incident over which you are both in conflict. Perhaps she dated your son or daughter and it ended badly, perhaps she failed your course and you would feel awkward around each other… Just leave it vague.

    7. Hiring Mgr*

      If you’re both involved in the same religious community to the extent that you’re each volunteering, I can’t imagine this is the only time this will come up. Is there any chance of talking to the student and trying to make peace?

      1. AnotherSarah*

        This would be quite mature…although I do think we might come to an understanding about the social media incident (though the damage has been done and it’s not me she owes an apology to), I would really want to see that her attitude towards her teachers had improved. (She basically just made stuff up in my classes, but also had some knowledge other students didn’t…and really used that in an unpleasant way.) It’s not that there’s not peace between us but I just would rather not deal with her as long as she has more or less the same MO.

    8. The Other Evil HR Lady*

      Can’t you just say that you’ve worked with her before and your personalities don’t mesh well? That part is (kinda) true, without citing what happened this summer – which had nothing to do with you (or was peripheral, at any rate). Or… as her former professor, you’ve seen the way she works and you don’t approve? I don’t like that one, actually…

      Or… do you know her to be flaky? Do you think she might not last in the group? Wait her out! I would say not to turn away from this group – they need YOU! They don’t need her as much as you, since you’re the one with the most experience/expertise (I’m assuming, but I’m probably right). Be the most reliable one, or the most knowledgeable one, and let others seek you out and not her. Be nice to her but assertive, as in, “excuse me, but I was speaking, let me finish my thought” kind of language. She’s obnoxious and unprofessional, so your niceness and professionalism will win out.

      Other than being blunt, which the group will listen to but won’t do anything about… because they’re not about to say to her not to volunteer… am I right?

    9. Calamity Janine*

      this is passive aggressive, but it seems like that is parlance of the situation, so…

      frame it both like it’s a little silly foible of yours, and that you are actually doing everyone – especially Jane – an enormous favor by keeping your distance so magnanimously. “oh, we’re just like oil and water, really! you know how it is, some people just aggravate you like that. we spent so much time with each other when she was my student that i think we both know that would end up with us arguing back and forth at each other, and then everyone else would be standing around so awkwardly about it, and it’d completely derail the event! i’m sure she was also SO relieved when she graduated to not be caught up in disagreements, i too. i would hate to make it seem to her like this is just more of the same classroom quibbling. so i think it’s better if we simply aren’t around each other much… after all, this event is important enough that i don’t want to take up time with petty little squabbles of how we’re on two different wavelengths, as i’m sure you agree!”

      gushily going forward with an attitude that this is already done and decided and you’re just informing everyone about the excruciatingly obvious solution is also a great tactic here. of course it’s the right thing to do. you’re doing the event a huge favor, as well as Jane herself a huge favor, by not letting it become a repeat of classroom quibbles. everyone has already agreed to this. (even if they don’t know they have already.) why, you’re doing the most loving and gracious thing possible by making sure Jane isn’t stressed out by all of this, because Jane would surely hate to be dragged straight back to school stuff after she’s graduated! especially because the event coordinator wants it to be about the event, not a rehash of old conflicts, right? of course the event coordinator does! (now, as you were saying, about the chocolate teapot dedication ceremony…)

      you might be asked to be charitable enough to go along with it anyway. i’m afraid this is when the polite fiction needs to drop, and you will have to be blunt about it. “she has a tendency to talk over me and be very rude, even when i was her professor, and this past summer she created and spread a very harmful lie that hurt me and my colleagues.” but then you can roll it back towards the focus with: “so as you can see, i’m fairly sure that if we’re trying to work together, she’s going to be dedicated to making it all about these old conflicts. i would hate for all your effort to be turned into that. this event is far more important, after all, and it would be irresponsible of me to expect precious resources to be wasted on some nonsense instead… not when we need to fundraise for those poor starving orphaned kittens up in alaska! so i’m sure you agree, it’s better if Jane is kept well away from this. it’s just the most sensible solution.” …and then moving swiftly on to a detail that your expertise is needed for. because the attitude is that you’ve said just the most normal and commonplace thing that everyone has already agreed on, so there’s no more that needs to be said about it.

      majorly passive-aggressive? oh yes. absolutely. however if that’s the local dialect, well, it’s what you need to speak in order to get things done on occasion lol

    10. AnotherSarah*

      I’m so appreciative of everyone’s comments! You also make me feel like this is not just a small thing I’m making a mountain out of. Thanks!

    12. Annony*

      I think you do need some level of directness but hopefully phrasing it as objective facts about her behavior rather than your preferences will help it go down better. Maybe “Jane did quite a bit of damage to a colleagues reputation over the summer by spreading untrue rumors. I value my professional reputation too much to risk working with her on this program.” If you want to soften it (and lie a little) you could change it to “Jane did quite a bit of damage to a colleagues reputation over the summer by spreading untrue rumors. I hold no ill will towards her. She is young and hopefully will learn professional norms given time, but I value my professional reputation too much to risk working with her on this program.”

    13. SofiaDeo*

      Something along the lines of ” from previous association I know we have different communication styles; I am not willing to work with her on this project.” You aren’t throwing any shade. If really really pressed, perhaps something like “I have already had to manage problems caused by her stating things as factual before verify her information, and the repercussion of her misstatements. I will not open myself to that possibility any more.” It’s about you, not her, right?

  11. Funfetti*

    Happy Friday!

    I’m on the job hunt and met with a family friend who used to work as a recruiter at a firm. He gave me some solid resume tips, but one bit of advice I am having trouble wrapping my head around because it goes against all AAM I’ve read here.

    He said it’s OK to contact the Hiring Manager when you submit your resume! Like message them on LinkedIn and say you’re interested! Whatttt?

    I’m totally stumped and went down an internet rabbit hole of LinkedIn articles and posts saying mostly to do it – but felt it missed a lot of the nuance that I value from this site.

    Soooo what do you all think? To message or not to message?

    For context: job I’m applying for is a software company of 200-300 employees and their website says a real human will (allegedly) read my resume. Their culture got great reviews so part of me wants to message because their HR guy is all Mr. LinkedIn on his profile but on the other hand if their site (and Glassdoor) say how much they care, do I trust the process?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      LinkedIn articles and posts saying you should use LinkedIn to contact people more – hmmm I’d want some sources not directly benefiting from you using it saying so.

      Pro – Hiring manager sees your chat and knows your name
      Con – If it comes off aggressive, annoying hiring manager, getting flagged as pushy or unclear on boundaries

    2. londonedit*

      I’m not sure I see what messaging them would achieve…it’s obvious that you’re interested in the job, because you’ve applied for it! I think it would be slightly odd to apply for a job and then send a message saying you’re interested in the job.

      1. CharlieBrown*

        Agreed. Alison has pointed this out before, as well.

        I mean, would you apply for the job and then send them a message saying “I applied for this job, but I’m not really interested. Just a head’s up.”?

        You just don’t apply for jobs you’re not interested in.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Just my opinion, but Alison is the person to go to. Not someone from LI or any where else.

        FWIW, I have sent that follow up email and it was not worth my effort. I won’t do it again.

    4. CharlieBrown*

      1) I tend not to take anything recruiters say terribly seriously. They are salesmen, after all. The degree of sliminess varies, but there is a certain amount of it present.

      2) I also tend not to take anything on LinkedIn too seriously, either. There are just too many people out there with “gumption” making ridiculous posts and articles in an attempt to get noticed. It’s not a networking site; it’s social media. It’s not quite descended to TikTok levels, but it’s awfully close.

      1. Funfetti*

        You’re right – my mind was getting warped from living on LinkedIn searching for jobs (which has been good) but the social media elements of everyone trying to be a thought leader definitely diminishes it.

    5. Middle of HR*

      No reason to message unless you actually know the hiring manager or are being intro’d by a mutual connection (who has agreed to connect you).
      Unless you’re applying for a sales job, maayyyybe. Some old school sales managers love that gumption stuff.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Unless your message adds to the conversation, don’t bother.

        However, note that if you apply for a job through the LinkedIn platform, it flags the activity to the person who posed the job. So you’ll be popping into their inbox and it’s easy for the poster to take a quick peek at you, even if your resume might not have been high up in their search of the database of apps. So it’s a sort of passive extra message.

    6. shruggie*

      Ha! I actually tried this once – I was brand new to professional norms, and hadn’t found AAM yet. Hilariously, the person I reached out to didn’t even see my message for weeks. I think there might be more of a chance your contact see the message quickly if they’re listed as the hiring manager on LinkedIn, and are using LinkedIn to conduct the search… but if you’re reaching out cold, it’s entirely possible they won’t see the message in a reasonable amount of time.

      On top of that, yeah, don’t do it. There’s literally nothing to gain; they can’t tell you anything at this point, and if they want to reach out to you to move you forward, they will.

    7. Kara*

      Just N=1, but my partner got his current job by submitting his resume and an intro email directly to the CEO of a moderate-sized business in his field (IT). That approach worked when a year of applying through job aggregator sites got only a few terrible interviews. I would suggest trying to find their company email rather than messaging through Linkedin, though.

    8. Morgan Proctor*

      Here’s the thing… I’ve done it, and it worked.

      Now, this probably wouldn’t work most of the time, but it worked in this case because, 1) it was a niche industry, and 2) the business was in a small town and had very limited access to qualified people.

      But basically, I wanted to work at Organization, but Organization wasn’t hiring the position I wanted. I sent messages to everyone in the department I wanted to work in introducing myself, and a day or two later I got an invite to interview. I was offered the job, and I accepted.

      So, sometimes this works. But you have to read the room!

    9. Aglet*

      I was listening to a presentation by a Google internal recruiter, and they said to search for the hiring manager’s name and email them directly. I knew that was opposite Alison’s advice, but it’s it what Google looks for? Is it a tech thing? Or is it just bad advice by one Google recruiter?

  12. Radish Queen*

    Asking for a friend. Say you work in a high technical field on R&D, on highly proprietary research. How do you effectively talk about your work and demonstrate clear communication when networking / interviewing? I suggested coming up with an example from a related but separate field (like if your work focuses on the hair cutting part of llama grooming, have a fake example of llama hoof cutting or something), and focusing on really specific aspects of what you *did* to problem solve vs the problems you actually solved. Is this the right approach? What is your experience?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I would not use anything fake. I really don’t understand how to translate the real life to llama around here so I am going to just stick with the actual example. “I work at ZYX Company in R&D, I’ve signed too many non disclosures to share details sadly but we’re doing a lot of really neat work with increasing the energy output in chips” . You can network by talking about academic articles you’ve read, thoughts on the conference speaker, “Did you see Stevenson’s new paper disproving capacitor degradation? I’m not sure I trust the methodology they didn’t consider ABC that Michaelis’s lab has been developing”.

      For interviews, check with your boss and your HR, sometimes you can share some details with the understanding that those will not be shared further. I’ve presented slide decks in interviews and the HR announced at the start not to share information from the talk as it is unpublished and confidential still.

      1. Radish Queen*

        I should have been more clear. This is friend is interviewing to leave their current role and start at another company. Presumably, if they are switching to an R&D role elsewhere, the hiring manager will understand. But they still want to be able to talk about the highly technical and unique work they have accomplished.

        1. Llama Fiber Art Specialist*

          R&D support here for a HIGHLY technical and niche field (I have about five peers nationwide, and the R&D scientists I support sometimes have none – they’re literally one of a kind.) I tend to talk about my work to non-peers in a couplet kind of way, the very technical and then general that brings it into focus for them:

          “I manage a collection of research and legal technical standards materials for Llama Product Development that supports Llama Fiber Arts and Yarn Re-utilization. Yeah, it does sound fancy! The Llama Handlers I support are doing some very cool science like (XYZ.) My day-to-day work is a lot of (paperwork, contacting vendors, spreadsheets, etc.) though.

          I find that puts it out there very briefly but opens both doors – if someone is ambitiously curious and wants to chat STEM, we can, but I also offer the route of talking more generally relatable work in our field.

        2. Hillary*

          One option is to focus on older products that have already gone to market. The other option is what others said – talk about the processes without going into specific details. R&D folks will appreciate that your friend has to respect their current confidentiality obligations, and frankly it would be a red flag if they didn’t.

          It’s not a perfect example, but I do a lot of financial analysis. I might talk about my steps to build and validate the analysis without mentioning the amounts involved.

    2. CharlieBrown*

      I think there’s a difference between talking about the process and talking about the product.

      In my field, we use HPLC and UPLC a lot (and also a little GC). There are a lot of system parameters involved, and a lot of work involved in method development, validation, and application. So there’s a lot that I can talk about without ever mentioning a single product that we’ve worked on.

      There are online forums devoted to chromatography, and people actively ask questions and give responses, but none of them ever mention products, just commonly available reagents. Perhaps you could search out similar forums in your online field and see how people discuss things there?

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I usually start off by saying I can’t talk about the exact details due to proprietary nature, but have been able to talk about the relevant aspects because they tend to be context-independent. For example, “tell me about a time you disagreed with a colleague and how you handled it” – the disagreement might be specific to the details of the project (I wanted design A for X reasons, they wanted design B for Y reasons) but the general situation is not. I can talk about how I advocated for a particular approach or presented on a topic to a hesitant or uninformed audience, or set up a study, without saying what the topic is or what the study focused on.

      If your friend is interviewing for similar jobs, the interviewers will be well aware that the details can’t be shared and will expect to hear genericized stories.

    4. Lora*

      There are some details that you just say “compound X” or “proprietary reaction” and it’s fine, everyone understands why you’re saying it that way. You can also refer to publications, preprints, patent applications/pending (even if the patent itself isn’t approved yet). But yes, focusing on the method of how you figured it out is the way to go. Show your thinking process, your observations, how you reasoned that you needed to solve this problem instead of that one.

    5. KayKay*

      I’ve worked at early start up companies still in the “stealth” phase where you can’t say ANYTHING about what you are working on. Not even in the vaguest terms, like for example “we do protein therapeutics”.

      The best way to get around this IMO is to talk about the techniques that you yourself are proficient in without saying that you have done them specifically in your current position. So instead of “I work on protein purification at XYC company” you would say “I am proficient in protein purification techniques, including x approach and y instrument.” or even vaguer, “my background is in protein purification, I have experience developing novel proprietary methods.”

    6. Nesprin*

      Ironically, being clear about your limitations is a good way to demonstrate clear communication: Say it upfront- I’m covered by a NDA/classification/etc so I can’t give specifics about X.

      Its worth figuring out what there is that your friend can talk about- is there stuff that’s been sunsetted out into the public? Can she give an older example of a project?

    7. Cedrus Libani*

      This is hard. You have to respect your NDAs; failure to do so is a bad look, because then they know you won’t respect their NDAs either. I’ve found that behavioral questions are generally fine, the precise details of the problem at hand aren’t the point. Also you can talk about technical stuff in the abstract. The fun part is trying to find non-trivial problems that you can actually talk about as an example of how you solve problems. Anything you’ve managed to get out into the literature, via presentations or publications, is fair game – but yeah, sometimes the really neat stuff doesn’t get out. If you’re desperate and the nature of your work lends itself, you may consider doing a side project that you can in fact present. Maybe you’ve spent the past 15 years grooming quadrupedal aliens in Area 51 and you can’t even admit that you worked there, but you’ve learned some skills, so call in a favor or two…give your neighbor’s scruffy poodle a good trim and take photos for your portfolio.

  13. Rara Avis*

    I have an annual work event coming up in 9 days on a day that’s not usually a work day. A couple months ago we were told that it would not be done the same way it was done pre-Covid, and not everyone needed to be there. That’s all the information we were given. I’ve contacted the person in charge twice to ask for more information (like do I need to be there, or can I make other plans) and was told she’d be sending out information when she was ready. How far ahead of time do you think is reasonable to expect information about such an event? I’m pretty sure it’s not even on the radar of some of my colleagues, and it’s going to be a rude shock when she does send out the information.

    1. CTT*

      Honestly at least a month; I’m not someone with copious weekend plans and have happily would pitched in/attended these things in the past, but for an annual event, the level of planning should be such that they’ll have a good idea of who they need to be there way more than 9 days out.

    3. Anika*

      Nine days is cutting it way too close. Personally, I think it’s close enough hat you could justifiably say “Unfortunately, I have an unavoidable family conflict at this time and I can’t be there,” if you were told you were required to go and had already made other plans. But how wise that would be depends how important this event is — if it’s something where lots of networking or face-time with the CEO or stuff like that will happen, it may just be worth holding your schedule open if you can.

      As to the current situation — is there anyone else you could try asking? Is there anyone else involved with the planning of the event that you have a rapport with? It sounds like they don’t have information for you right now, but maybe you could ask about the timing of the information — something like “I have the opportunity to go llama riding this weekend and I need to let them know sooner rather than later if I’ll be taking the slot — any chance you have a rough timeline of when you’ll know who’s required to attend this event?” or “While I know you don’t have a finalized guest list yet, is there any sense you could give me of who might and might not be expected to attend?” Regardless of who you’re asking, I think they key is to be understanding, and phrase it like you’re trying to work together to come to a compromise, rather than continuing to demand information they don’t have yet, for whatever reason.

    4. Ama*

      At the bare minimum, a save the date should already be on people’s calendars of anyone who needs to be there (at my work this happens months in advance, and then we usually have a staff meeting about the event two weeks ahead of time where we discuss the details of people’s assignments). If she has not even done that, you are right there are going to be a lot of upset people when she informs people that they are being required to work this event.

      1. OtterB*

        This. Detailed agenda will probably follow closer to the date of the event, but save the date should be out sooner with approximate start/end times if anyone is traveling to be there. Although I guess your issue is whether you and the other staff are required.

  14. Amber Rose*

    How do you encourage people to report bullying?

    Last week we had an incident where an employee picked a fight with someone we really need to not pick fights with (fights are always bad but like, there’s picking fights with a dude and picking fights with the mob and both are bad but one has wider consequences.)

    After the fallout from that I heard from another manager that he’d been calling one of her employees a “little b**ch” as a joke. The guy wasn’t really comfortable with it, he just didn’t feel like he could say anything. Apparently one of my other coworkers was also occasionally in tears from this guy’s antics.

    I really, really want people to say things. I don’t usually see these things happening because I’m holed up in my office so much and I can’t step in if I don’t know. How do I convince people to let me know?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I’d go to HR with what you do know. Ask HR about how they want to handle needing to get more information from the employees involved (probably a sit down with you HR and the employees in question).

      As a manager you can get people to trust you as they see how you handle things they do tell you now. Open office hours (I’m free 12-1 every day, you don’t need an appointment to talk about something) type things can help (less barrier of let me schedule a meeting to tell my boss im upset. You can also make blanket statements requesting information (“I’m aware of an incident with XYZ group – if you have any details please come talk to me or email me by 5pm today”) but be careful not to be just encouraging gossip. Some crappy bosses have done the leave the aggressor and the victim alone in the room to talk it out, they may not have enough examples of how you operate to trust you yet. Your actions will speak louder.

        1. Pennyworth*

          Call each person in individually and tell them they need to tell you what happened because you will be taking action on any bullying and need to get the full picture. Do not give them the option of not talking to you. Make it clear to the victim of the bullying that they can always come to you and you will have their back.

    2. ScruffyInternHerder*

      I want to know if this employee is twelve. Twelve year olds pick fights and call each other LB’s.

      (Yes I deal with the age group referenced. But I’m not sure how exactly to translate how I handle the situation with middle schoolers/high schoolers to “working adults” who are in theory older than that)

      Is there anything/something that you’re able to do to make it very clear that this (fighting and calling names) is unacceptable and that you need to be told about it in order to handle the fact that its inappropriate behavior? Is there a clear statement on what is and isn’t acceptable? Is there a clear and known method for submitting feedback about bullying/reporting bullying?

      1. Amber Rose*

        He was a very bro-y kind of guy, if that makes sense. Like a stereotype of a stoner without the drugs. Probably mid to late 20’s.

        We do have policies around reporting, but we’ve been an overly casual company for many, many years. Changing the office culture to make it clear that nobody has to tolerate name calling is a struggle.

        1. ScruffyInternHerder*

          re: stereotype of the stoner without the drugs. Bro-y dude. Absolutely makes sense. Its also why I’m trying to (not physically) beat some sense into these youngsters, so that they aren’t this arsehole once their frontal lobe develops!

          Is there any disciplinary option with bro-dude? Maybe a “sent home for the day”? (Works well if hourly and is not afoul of any union agreements)

          And depending on the industry, I feel your pain. Hardcore. There’s a lot of “wait, we can’t say the “R word” anymore? #$%&ing snowflakes.” in my own industry. Even in this industry though, its kind of an unwritten that you can’t “@someone”. As in yelling “Fvck off” isn’t too much to raise on eyebrow about, but “fvck you, Kevin” is going to raise serious eyebrows.

    3. Sherm*

      Are you in a position where you can do something about bullying, where you can make the warnings/PIPs/firings happen? If so, you could say “I want to assure you that I take bullying very seriously. It is not allowed here, and those who do it will face consequences and will be told not to retaliate against those who report it.”

      If you’re not in such a position, but you know that your company is adept at addressing bullying (good HR, etc), you can relay this strength to the employees, perhaps with some details about what would happen if bullying is reported.

      If the company, on the other hand, is not good at addressing bullying — nothing happens to the bully, those who report it are punished despite what you can personally do — well, then, unfortunately, it might not be smart to report bullying, and I wouldn’t advise people to do something that will just hurt them further.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I’m in a shadow position. Although I do have the power to issue warnings, that’s the end of my direct power.

        Indirectly, I have the ear of upper management, and if I insist that something happens, it usually does. Hence the reason why the fight last week wasn’t brushed over but was actually addressed.

        Historically, nobody is ever punished for reporting things, it’s just that nothing really happens at all. We’re making a lot of efforts to change that.

        1. Rubber chicken*

          Yeah, most people aren’t going to see any point in telling you, sorry. No HR, no real power, relies on you deciding to bring random pressure to bear on management (so depends on your whim), and nothing really ever happens.

          I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t report anything to you either. If you want people to be willing to report things, you need to have the structures and procedures in place to support that. “I’m a good person and I want to help” isn’t enough.

        2. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

          This is tricky, but I’ve been in this spot. For context, I am a senior manager now but ran into this a lot when I witnessed bullying of folks not on my team/not involving my team as a frontline manager. Here’s my take — ultimately it’s about building trust:
          – Your power here is limited, but you do have some. Get clear in your own head about what your power can accomplish. You can’t deliver solutions, and you shouldn’t just be a meddler, so how do you define your role?
          – When people come to you for anything – not just bullying, or conflict, but everything from low-stakes work problems to the rather horrifying things you name above – do what you say you’re going to do, don’t say you’re going to do anything you can’t actually do, and get the consent of anyone directly impacted before you do anything (provided it’s not required you report something like sexual harassment). If you miss deadlines in your regular work, no one is going to believe that you’ll actually follow up with senior management about a serious problem. If a colleague vents to you, you tell your boss without their permission, your boss has a different take and your colleague ends up being accountable, that isn’t going to build the trust you’re looking for.
          – Since the solutions are outside your direct control, be totally honest about that from the beginning. Name what you can do (“I can raise this with Tom”) and caveat it with what you can’t control (“I think it’s 50/50 whether he’ll be receptive, and fairly unlikely he’ll take visible action, but he might do something behind the scenes. Neither of us will likely be informed if he does something.”)
          – If you develop a reputation for making people feel heard in your regular work, they’ll start coming to you with harder stuff. Even if you mostly work independently, aggressively seek input and feedback from anyone who ‘s perspective you’re curious about. You’re never going to build trust staying in your office and only interacting with your computer! (But also — if your job is to stay in your office and only interact with your computer, maybe you aren’t positioned to push culture change.)
          – If you start telling anyone who isn’t directly positioned to take action, you risk developing a reputation as a gossip. You won’t be able to control the rumors.
          – When people share bad or emotionally charged news (whether about bullying or in the course of routine work), react calmly and professionally, make them feel heard, but don’t position yourself as “savior who can fix it.” If you take on other people’s outrage on their behalf or have even the slightest reputation as a hot-head, they will likely see a lot of risk in bringing things to you.
          – If you take action on a few things by escalating them and none of them yield a result/solution, people will stop telling you stuff. If you can’t deliver resolutions consistently, you can’t expect people to bring concerns to you no matter how well-intentioned you are.
          – when you observe bad behavior, react in a collected way that demonstrates that you don’t think it’s ok. Like if you hear name calling: “wow, that is really inappropriate.” Show that you know where the line is and you’re willing to call it out, but that your reactions also de-escalate.
          – Through your routine work, develop a reputation as having a highly nuanced understanding of the company’s politics, and demonstrate a high level of skill in navigating the politics successfully. This reputation is especially important among staff who have less power, and it’s also a lot harder to build as they also likely have less of an understanding of the landscape and your role in it, so this requires some creativity. “Have the boss’s ear” is different from “has boss’s ear, but realizes Boss is more receptive to input from Senior Coworker, who will also be more sympathetic to the problem, and is skilled at leveraging relationship with Senior Coworker to get Boss to hear them. AND understands the messy trust dynamics between Junior Colleague and Senior Coworker that will lead Junior Colleague to be resistant to that approach.” One way I’ve built this reputation is by talking through how I navigate the politics to my junior or new-to-the-company colleagues.

          Obviously none of that happens overnight, but you can build that foundation of trust if you’re really committed to it. It’s hard, hard work.

        3. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

          This is tricky, but I’ve been in this spot. Here’s my take:
          – Your power is limited, but you do have some. Get clear in your own head about what your power can accomplish. You can’t deliver solutions, and you shouldn’t just be a meddler, so how do you define your role?
          – When people come to you for anything – from low-stakes work problems to the rather horrifying things you name above – do what you say you’re going to do, don’t say you’re going to do anything you can’t actually do, and get the consent of anyone directly impacted before you do anything (provided it’s not required you report something like sexual harassment). If you miss deadlines in your regular work, no one is going to believe that you’ll follow up with management about a serious problem.
          – Since the solutions are outside your direct control, be honest about that. Name what you can do (“I can raise this with Tom”) and caveat it with what you can’t control (“I think it’s 50/50 whether he’ll be receptive, and fairly unlikely he’ll take visible action, but he might do something behind the scenes.”)
          – If you develop a reputation for making people feel heard in your regular work, they’ll start coming to you with harder stuff.
          – When people share bad or emotionally charged news (in the course of routine work), react calmly, make them feel heard, but don’t position yourself as “savior who can fix it.” If you take on other people’s outrage on their behalf or have a reputation as a hot-head, they will likely see a lot of risk in bringing things to you.
          – If you escalate things in your routine work and it doesn’t yield a result/solution, people won’t enlist your help to escalate bullying issues.
          – when you observe bad behavior, react in a collected way that demonstrates that you don’t think it’s ok. Like “wow, that is really inappropriate.”
          – Through your routine work, develop a reputation as having a highly nuanced understanding of the company’s politics, and demonstrate a high level of skill in navigating the politics. “Has the boss’s ear” is different from “has boss’s ear, but realizes Boss is more receptive to input from Senior Coworker, and is skilled at leveraging relationship with Senior Coworker to get Boss to hear them.”

          Obviously none of that happens overnight, but you can build that foundation of trust if you’re really committed to it. It’s hard, hard work. I’d argue that it only makes sense to take on if you’re in a role where there’s a mandate to improve the culture.

    4. Calamity Janine*

      this may be counterintuitive but it may take giving the employee some severe consequences *first*.

      i imagine that right now he’s allowed to run amok because everyone has gotten into the attitude of “well if nobody’s done anything about him, nobody will care, so if i bring this up to anyone, i’ll just get yelled at instead of getting any help”. bullies often take advantage of such spirals and actively work to keep people thinking that help will never come, as to better continue being bullies. it’s a fiction that they use to prey on others. so to fight it, you’ve got to bust that myth directly.

      if consequences are already rolling, then it’s a good time to bring up that the company does indeed care about this stuff. don’t come in with an attitude of blaming them for not reporting issues sooner – just stress that this is, indeed, something management really does want to know about because management really will take action. this might work well when you also pair it with making an effort to get out and be seen more. even if you’re just walking through with a “how’s it going, y’all?”, it might help you from being out of sight and thus out of mind. an oddball suggestion might be pairing this with something like a candy dish. that’s a reach, i know, but the idea is you are making a good and easy excuse for people wanting to report issues to come talk to you. that way it’s not seen as someone popping in your office is surely getting in there to tattle to teacher. they have a convenient cover story. (and if they happen to alert you to a problem while unwrapping their fun-size snicker’s bar, well, system’s working as intended!)

    5. Everything Bagel*

      I’m curious what the consequences were for the guy who started the fight and was calling a co-worker a little bitch. Does he still work there? If so, I’m not sure how you would convince anyone to ever say anything in the future. That guy needs to be gone like today. Then you could encourage your employees that there will be consequences for people who mistreat other employees and that anyone experiencing mistreatment should come to you so you can help resolve it. Not sure what else to suggest as far as exact language to use, but if there have been no or too little consequences for the instigator, then why should anyone speak up?

      1. Observer*

        I’m curious what the consequences were for the guy who started the fight and was calling a co-worker a little bitch. Does he still work there? If so, I’m not sure how you would convince anyone to ever say anything in the future

        This is a really important point. You may not need to fire him, but there NEEDS to be clear and visible consequences. And his victims need to be protected – and to know that they are being protected.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, this. If somebody were calling me or my coworkers this and didn’t get . . . I’d like to say fired, but at the very least severely reprimanded, moved out of the department, etc., nothing you can do or say would convince me that you actually cared.

      3. Amber Rose*

        He does not still work for us, no. I… didn’t ask for that exactly, but I put a strong word in a few ears that SOMETHING needed to happen immediately or we were gonna have a serious problem.

        I don’t think anyone knows why though, since the email that went out was just, “he’s not working here anymore, best of luck That Guy.”

        1. Observer*

          I think it’s fine that there wasn’t a formal announcement. People can put two and two together.

        2. ScruffyInternHerder*

          At least around here, there’d be a lot of mental “2+2=4, if it walks like a duck…” going on over that email. Frequently they say more with what they don’t say.

          :)

    6. Observer*

      After the fallout from that I heard from another manager that he’d been calling one of her employees a “little b**ch” as a joke. The guy wasn’t really comfortable with it, he just didn’t feel like he could say anything

      A manager knows that someone has been calling an employee “little b**” and a “joke” and didn’t feel like he could say something?!

      Either this manager is incompetent or you have some serious culture issues. You do realize that this manager failing to step in is a HUGE failure, no? Does anyone also realize that it also opens the company to major liability? Because it’s one thing when one employee bullies another, even when it’s pretty clearly a legal harassment issue. But when a manager actually KNOWS about it and does nothing, that is squarely on the company now. Totally liable for not stopping it.

      So, one thing you need to do is to get some REAL training in place. Not only should staff feel comfortable reporting stuff like this, and have a real set of solid options for doing so. But your managers MUST understand their *obligations* here.

      1. Everything Bagel*

        I took OP to mean that the person being called names didn’t feel like he could say something and his manager didn’t know about it until later. The question remains though, has done anything about it since then? I hope, like you, that the manager of the person being called names has done something by now.

      2. Amber Rose*

        The employee requested that the manager not do anything, so she didn’t. Later she was ranting at me about it as part of her frustration about the fight, and I took it on myself to take it up the ladder, employee request be damned.

        We do have a culture issue, but most importantly what we have is about 8 newly promoted managers who have no idea what power being a manager grants them. They are still basically acting as workers because we’ve never bothered to define what being a manager actually means. We haven’t traditionally had managers, really. Just upper management, and then teams.

        It’s a growth issue. We’ve nearly tripled in size in a short amount of time.

        1. Observer*

          I think that one of the things you need is training. For instance, managers need to be explicitly told what their powers ARE. But also what they are NOT. They need to know that sometimes they cannot honor an employee request – if they see or hear harassment, they HAVE to report it and take action. etc.

          It’s good that you are doing what you are doing. But it’s important that you are not the only thing holding it all together. Training is one piece of creating that shift.

    7. Gnome*

      If you want people to report bullying you have to take it seriously and you have to develop a psychologically safe work environment (there are books in this).

      The fact that this is ongoing tells people you won’t act on it. You don’t need to see it yourself – this isn’t a court of law. You can address it generally, by saying early and often what you want to see (a positive professional team) what is not ok (name calling, mocking, etc). Tell people you want to know if there are issues they see but you don’t… And be ready to protect people from retaliation if they raise stuff to you.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I don’t need to see it myself, but I probably won’t see it myself, is all I meant. Because I’m usually in my office and so I don’t see everyone as much. If nobody tells me things, it’s unlikely I’ll find out.

        People are so good at reporting incidents. I hear about everything from small explosions to small papercuts. I just want them to feel good coming to me for other stuff.

        1. ScruffyInternHerder*

          Okay, back to middle school again – can you make the reporting structure for bullying and other such nonsense look just like the incidents that they are reporting well?

          1. Its not something new. They’re familiar with the system.
          2. If the same system is used for all reporting, its not obvious like dropping a report into a neon pink flashing drop box labeled “sexual harassment reports”.

          I’ve seen it used in schools near me – the same “drop box” is used for…everything. You can drop in teacher kudos, suggestions for the lunch menu, bullying reports, and just about anything else you can think of except maintenance, into the same box and know that the principal/assistant principals are going to review it all with equal weight.

        2. Polopoly*

          Perhaps tap into the infrastructure / culture regarding incident reporting, to hammer home that bullying are also incidents that need to be reported.

  15. Anxious Annie*

    Has anyone found successful methods to combat work-induced anxiety? If so, can you please share?

    Background: I’ve been pretty successful at what I do in that I’ve always been rated meets or exceeds expectations and have advanced in different companies to a senior individual contributor or first-tier management roles. My current workplace is very demanding and fast paced and while I’ve been told I’m doing well overall, management can be critical. I get knots in my stomach ahead of meetings, feel overwhelmed at what I need to achieve, and have developed insomnia. I’ve tried meditation and medications for the insomnia and it’s a roller coaster over the last year+. Is there more I can do in such a work environment or is my anxiety telling me this job is not a good fit for me?

    1. Elle*

      I have similar insomnia related to things I need to do. I’ve started journaling my fears around upcoming events and tasks. I write down the event/task and what I’m scared about. Then afterwards I write down what actually happened. It has helped me see that I am often driving myself crazy for no reason and my anxiety is mostly unfounded.

      1. Bess*

        THIS–reflecting on what is driving your fears is so helpful, especially as many times they are unfounded.

        Also, exercise is a must in stressful roles, I believe. At least 3x per week if you can’t swing daily. Ideally cardio.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Ok I don’t know. I am anxious at work and my boss is like …did that work thing traumatize you? And now I have to get a new therapist. Do you think an EAP can help?

    3. Ellen Ripley*

      Can you see a doctor or therapist? Therapy is more broadly available recently, and it sounds like your anxiety is to the point where it’s affecting your quality of life… Time to see a professional if you aren’t already. If you are, talk to them about your anxiety issues. What you’re experiencing seems past the point where “take deep breaths,” or “use x supplement” would be useful.

    4. Just Want A Nap*

      Are… you me? Because same. My yearly review is coming up and I’m stressing out!

      At work I make sure I try to find a way to move my body, I do a 2 minute walk around the building, I do the stretches… and I doodle and fold used “garbage” post-it notes into origami when I have 2 minutes of breathing room.
      Outside of work I try to find some hobby I can do that’s mentally consuming and physical, like crochet or painting so instead of “These Reports Must Be Exact And Are Due In 2 Days” I’m thinking about colors and did I count the stitches right.

    5. Queen Ruby*

      Have you tried an anti-anxiety med? I went on one for the reasons you explained, and it helped so much. It calmed me down enough to be able to get a fresh state of mind and develop ways of dealing with the anxiety, without the actual anxiety getting in the way. I went off of it after about a year, and haven’t needed it since, and my anxiety is pretty much nonexistent. YMMV, of course…

      1. tessa*

        Seconding this hard, and for the same reasons. Still on it, and things are great. I didn’t struggle with insomnia, but would wake up in the night paralyzed by thoughts of specific work tasks and debt. Gone.

        A caveat: the medication I take works so well that I haven’t had a good cry in a long time. I feel the emotions but the tears don’t come. I’ve managed that, but just fair warning.

    6. Sherm*

      I wouldn’t use anxiety as a sign of whether the job is a good fit for you, but if you don’t like a fast-paced, demanding workplace, that’s okay! Workplace culture (which is maaaaaybe changing) has told us that a fast-paced workplace is “cool”, that being a stress junkie is the way to go, but you are free to reject this frequently toxic viewpoint.

    7. Hillary*

      For me it was both the workplace and me. I went to therapy and am about to start again, but I also found a job that was a better fit for where I was then.

      I might be reading too much into what you wrote, but it sounds to me like your problem is with management/culture, not the work or pace. Fast paced and challenging can be fantastic in the right culture and hell in a bad culture. If managers are jerks it isn’t going to get better and you should get out.

    8. Sunflower*

      Oh man. I could have written this (former BigLaw and Consulting employee). My main questions are how is your relationship with your boss/your boss overall? What kind of industry are you in and who are you supposed to impress at work? I just took a new job in tech and I have to say…the stress is WAY less than what I was experiencing for a few reasons.

      – Removing partners from the equation was a huge change. Because of my nature of work, I was usually working with partners who were gunning HARD to move up the ranks and competing against peers. It was a move up or get out type situation. Now the people I support are sellers. Many of them are quite happy with their income and not as stressed about client optics
      – My boss is great and goes to bat for my team. I was ready to leave this career and she is the main reason I took this job. If she stays here and things continue this way, I don’t see myself leaving for quite a while
      – What is helpful for me is to always think in terms of worst case scenario. I realized my primary fear around work relates to fear of getting fired and losing my income. Whenever something is going on, I think ‘what is the worst case scenario? Is it me getting fired?’ and the answer is usually No.

      I still do have periods of insomnia at night during busy periods. I accept that it’s part of who I am and I deal with it because I like the salary I make. I plan to one day leave the industry and go into something less stressful once I feel more financially secure

      I would suggest looking for a new job and focusing on finding a good manager vs changing the work- IME in this and past jobs, it makes all the difference.

      1. Anxious Annie*

        Thanks for all the ideas and the sharing. I’m going to try Elle’s suggestion of documenting when I do get anxious and the outcomes to remind myself that nothing is ever that serious. Which is also what Sunflower mentioned (what’s the worst that could happen? Would they fire me? And of course the answer is No)

        I have tried bouts of more regular exercise but I don’t feel that helped much. Indeed YMMV.

        1. Sparkle llama*

          The app mind shift is made by Anxiety Canada and is based on cognitive behavioral therapy and is great at helping you think through actual vs perceived consequences. It is by far the best app I have encountered and is actually scientifically based.

  16. GoldenMaple*

    My employer rolled out a new policy for “safety” reasons and I’m curious to see what others think of it. We are no longer allowed to wear earbuds or headphones in the building because listening to our own personal devices might cause us to miss fire alarms or active shooter warnings.

    1. ScruffyInternHerder*

      Immediate thought: “Do they not have strobes and lights? Because I swear those are necessary under various codes. Further, how are they handling someone with a hearing impairment? Oh man, this could be fun….”

      1. Warrior Princess Xena*

        As an aside, we had a day at our office where the fire alarm started going off for some glitchy reason, but the sound didn’t trigger. We do have strobes & lights but about 1/4 of the desks face the window, and a lot of us wear headphones for calls. End result: our office admin had to actually make a lap of the office to poke us all and get us to leave.

        So make sure the strobes/lights are visible from all seated positions!

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Most bigger offices I’ve worked in have had people assigned to make that lap anyway, to be sure everyone has left.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          We have that (required to accommodate the deaf & hard of hearing). But we also get text messages & emails. (Also handy for WFH staff, so you know why people aren’t in a meeting.)

        2. tessa*

          Huh? I don’t work in an open plan office, and I can see the strobes clear as a bell. So can my colleages.

      3. Hotdog not dog*

        That was my first thought. I do not wear headphones or earbuds because I have hearing loss. The alarms in my building all have strobe lights. I can (sort of) hear the alarms, but I can’t tell the difference between a building alarm and a passing emergency vehicle except for the flashing.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Are they allowing one earbud/headphone on one side only ? That was a good compromise for a lot of places. We had concerns not just for alarms but also for someone yelling “hey look out” and double earbuds not hearing them.

    3. Dinwar*

      Safety theater at best, overreach at worst.

      Most headphones don’t cancel out noise–mine don’t, for example–and as I understand it those that do often don’t cancel out alarms. Any fire alarm worth having will be loud enough to hear. And anyway relying on a single alarm system is asking for failure. What will they do if the fire is an electrical fire that knocks out the alarms? Or the shooter cuts power first? Emergencies are giant balls of entropy; you absolutely need redundancy in your procedures.

      Second, from a safety standpoint, this is a right-of-boom solution. Safety is supposed to focus on left-of-boom solutions. Why are you getting to the point where there’s a fire or a shooter anyway? Especially fires–you should be inspecting on a regular basis and correcting fire hazards. It’s not that hard. Shooters are something different, but despite what the news shows they remain a high-impact, low-frequency event. Most people will never face one. Living our lives on the premise that we’ll be shot at any time, in contradiction with the data, isn’t healthy.

      There’s also the psychological aspect. Making people miserable is not good. In an open office it’s worse–you’re GOING to have distractions, it’s merely a question of WHICH distractions.

      If we were talking a factory floor or a jobsite, where there’s a lot of moving equipment and things that could injure or kill you, that’d be something else. But at your desk/cubicle? There’s zero reason for this policy from a safety standpoint.

      1. CharlieBrown*

        Sorry, but safety has to focus on both left and right of boom.

        Even with the best safety measures in the world, fires and other things will happen. Safety can’t just throw up their hands and say “Nope, not our problem, we only do things to prevent it.” Alarms tend to be wired independently so that they don’t get knocked out and have battery backups for power outages. Just like safety lights have battery packs. (I have replaced plenty of those in my life.)

        If safety is only left of boom, there really is no need for fire extinguishers, fire alarms, emergency lights, etc.

        And a lot of people have noise-cancelling headphones or earbuds.

        I agree with your conclusion, but people need to have correct information about safety, for reasons.

      2. Observer*

        Second, from a safety standpoint, this is a right-of-boom solution. Safety is supposed to focus on left-of-boom solutions. Why are you getting to the point where there’s a fire or a shooter anyway?

        This is terrible safety practice. Of course you need to focus on prevention. But the idea that you ONLY focus on prevention is dangerous nonsense. And effectively illegal in many cases.

        Take a look at fire safety codes as an example. Different jurisdictions have different specific rules but ALL of them have rules that focus on what happens if (or rather WHEN) you have a fire. Because it simply is not possible to prevent every single possible fire situation. Sure, there are rules that lower the risk. But 100% prevention is just not possible. Especially if you are in a building or complex that is shared with other entities.

        The same if true several times over for things like “active shooter” type of situation. Even in a place like NYC, with extremely tight gun control laws, shootings happen! And most organizations simply don’t have the capacity to prevent them.

    4. Sylvan*

      This is dumb. They don’t want people to listen to music and they’re just coming up with reasons you can’t argue with.

      I was listening to earbuds when someone fired a gun in public and I did not miss any aspect of that. Guns are loud, announcements are loud, running people are hard to miss. This is very dumb.

    5. CharlieBrown*

      Is this just in the office? Or is there a warehouse or manufacturing facility included in this policy? (People need to be able to hear so they don’t get run over by a forklift, but this is a much more complicated situation.)

      Overall, it seems reasonable to me. I think the reasoning is a bit off; perhaps they are more concerned that people be focused on their work and not the details of the true crime podcast that they are listening to. That’s a reasonable expectation, but if that’s the reason, then they should just state that. It’s just like having music playing at your desk–it shouldn’t be so loud that it is a distraction.

    6. David's Skirt-Pants*

      That’s an excuse with a flimsy premise. Buildings are required to have accessible alerts; not everyone has the ability to hear. Yes, horns will sound and prerecorded messages might be broadcast but strobes will also activate. I know of an employer who installed soundproof pods for phone rooms in an open office space and the fire marshal said that was fine as long as each pod was placed in the line of sight of a strobe.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      I would ask about ADA Compliance – how do they expect hearing-impaired employees or visitors to learn of fire alarms or active shooter warnings? (And I agree with others that the “one ear” policy is the usual compromise I’ve seen to ensure awareness of one’s surroundings.)

    8. Not Today, Satan*

      I wonder if your employer is aware that many folks who use hearing aids can listen to music via Bluetooth hearing aids and their iPhones.

    9. Amber Rose*

      Safety Manager here: ridiculous. We (sort of) have that rule in place, but it’s so people don’t miss the movement of the forklift or another worker shouting a “look out!”, which is more subtle than the ear shattering shriek of the fire alarm. And that is only for people on the shop floor, office workers may do as they please. And even then, we allow one ear bud for floor workers.

    10. Alex*

      I’d ask them to please point me to some earphones that could drown out the ear-piercing sound of a fire alarm, because I’d like to buy them please.

    11. Weekender*

      That seems extreme. I have large, over the ear, noise canceling headphones that I wear on airplanes, etc. and can still hear when they are making announcements.
      I would think regular earbuds/headphones would still be ok.
      Did they test this hypothesis to see if you really can’t hear these warnings when wearing these devices and listening to something?
      What is their accommodation for someone deaf or hard of hearing?

  17. Avery*

    I did actually send this to Alison in a message, but hearing from the commentariat might be useful too:
    What do you wear to a work holiday party?
    This is the first work holiday party I’d be going to, for a job I got fairly recently with a small law firm. My position’s remote, and it’d be the first time I’d meet some of my coworkers face-to-face. Normally I work in a T-shirt and sweatpants given the remote nature of my job, but I’m aware that’s far from the legal world norm! And it’s not taking place in the office but at a local restaurant, one that’s fairly nice but not to the point of having its own dress code (afaik).
    Do I need to break out a suit? Is business casual acceptable? Do I need to have nice shoes to switch into, or a relatively professional-looking winter jacket?

    1. BellyButton*

      Just wear what you would normally wear to that restaurant for a special occasion. Business casual is probably fine.

    2. Just Want A Nap*

      If you have someone you trust who’s been their longer, ask them what they’d be wearing.

      My general go to for those situations is slacks/khakis and a blazer, or maybe a holiday sweater.

    3. londonedit*

      Depends what sort of party it is but for a Christmas lunch at a nice restaurant – which is what we usually do where I work – people would wear something along the spectrum from ‘smart jeans and a nice top’ to ‘smart/casual dress’, maybe with some sort of festive sparkle to it, or Christmassy colours or whatever.

    4. to varying degrees*

      Black slacks or even nice dark jeans (no rips, etc) if you’re female, paired with a holiday-ish top or jewelry should be fine. Since it’s a holiday party people will probably be wearing something a little more festive than basic business casual. If/when you know the name of the restaurant you can sometimes get a feel of the vibe based on their social media and/or menu.

    5. cactus lady*

      Ask your coworkers! My normally stuffy office gets silly for the holiday party (think men in snowflake print suits, ugly sweaters, elf hats, etc). Coworkers can be your guide :)

    6. Educator*

      For ambiguous situations like this, I like to have an outfit I can switch up on the spot. In this case, that might mean a dressy top with a blazer over it. Keep the blazer on if people are in work clothes, pop it off if they have switched to party clothes. Nice black shoes work for both. Or for a more masculine look, stick a tie and a pocket square in your jacket pocket—pull them out and keep the blazer on if things are fancy, take the blazer off and skip the tie if the vibe is casual.

      A nicer jacket is good if you have one, but any warm coat in black/brown/blue is probably fine because you will take it off when you arrive anyway.

    7. Calamity Janine*

      i am biased because my little gremlin brain would go straight to “ooh, a chance to dress up!”, lol. but if it’s a holiday party, at a nice restaurant, i think you will be safe following that restaurant’s general vibe.

      however i think you also have a lot of room to be a bit more fancy! it’s the type of restaurant where people are going for a date night treat, so feel free to get into that groove too. i’d honestly shop a lookbook for something like a cocktail party. if it’s a special occasion, feel free to bust out something with sequins or a fun print, too.

      it’s my personal fashion taste speaking here, but modcloth i think has a lot of really nice things to fit this bill. the retro styling of an a-line / fit-and-flare dress is very flattering, but also comes across as ‘ooh, you’re dressing up i see! how lovely!’, while being easy to be office-appropriate modest. (no super-tight bodycon dresses with plunging necklines and itty-bitty skirts!) you don’t have to bust out a petticoat, but given it’s going to be cold, a pair of nice tights could be just the thing. pair with a little cardigan for indoors – maybe one with a little bit of modest holiday flourish, like snowflake embroidery pattern around the collar or a holly berry brooch. plus it means you have more control over your own temperature – if it’s still a little chilly indoors, keep the cardigan on; if they’re really blasting the heat for full luxury, you can shrug it off, and have that dress be at short or no-sleeves (or three-quarter sleeves) and, well, fancy dress weight instead of heavy-duty winter clothing weight. but i admit i’m down in the south, so i’m biased there towards layers and dressing for the possibility of people going ham with the central heating, and we don’t really have to deal with severe winter weather to that extent.

      if it’s cold enough where you are thinking about switching out shoes, i think everyone will know that the coat room is there for a reason and that’s fine. i don’t think you have to buy professional snow boots or a fancy peacoat. if it’s particularly slushy and gross, i’d say to bring a nice pair of shoes to switch into, and everyone will completely understand why you didn’t want to trot through that in a nice pair of heels or ballet flats. the materials of some fancy shoes are a great double excuse for this – you don’t want to ruin that new suede, or have to clean the sidewalk de-icing salt off the leather…

      in general i think going for ‘classy but perhaps a little more dressy than needed’ is a safe bet. not full-on ballgown length bling. but a nice dress, a nice pair of tights, some nice heels or flats, a pair of earrings and maybe busting out the pearl necklace inherited from your great-grandma? yeah, i think you’ll be good. it’s a party so people are expecting the chance to get to dress up when going somewhere nice, but not so nice that you’re going to be full black tie or white tie with the maitre d’ checking everyone at the door.

      i also think it’s easier in this situation to recover if you end up being too overdressed, rather than under. then it’s more to set yourself up for some light teasing (even led by you personally, lol) about how the new employee was wanting to make sure they were showing up at their best to impress for meeting everyone face-to-face, and next year you’ll know that it’s more of a tacky-novelty-christmas-sweater type vibe.

      i admit, again through bias, that the specific advice above is for if your gender is somewhere aligned with the feminine and you’re cool with going more high femme. a more masculine point of view i don’t know the intricacies of. however i’d say that if you’re dealing with lawyers, then ‘what’s court-appropriate’ is a pretty good place to go to. which means, yes, probably a suit and tie, and probably some dress shoes to change into. the good thing is that a suit comes with its own layers and that’s how you dress it down. if you get there and nobody’s in anything fancier than shirtsleeves and khakis with no tie, then just leave the suit jacket in with your winter coat, take off your tie to put in your coat pocket, hang that up, and look like you were perfectly dressed to the exact level of fanciness all along lol. if you want to appear festive, maybe an appropriate tie – more of the ‘silk stripes of a pleasant burgundy red and deep evergreen’ type instead of the ‘if you press this one at the bottom, rudolph’s nose flashes red and it plays the song’ type. but doing it up masc means there’s also less expectation to show up looking like a fashion plate, so if you show up obviously making an effort to be fancy enough to fit in with the nice restaurant’s vibe, you won’t have a problem at all. :)

    8. Lost academic*

      Since you referenced the legal world I would default to (holiday) cocktail. If you’re not sure, see if someone can share previous years’ party photos.

      1. Two Dog Night*

        I agree–because it’s law I’d go a bit dressier–maybe black pants with a dressy top, or a dress if you’re willing. I’d probably break out my black velvet pants for this. Definitely something more cocktail-y than office wear.

    9. RagingADHD*

      In the Beforetimes, I’d wear “client coming to the office” base layer, with a festive top.

      So for example, work pants with a bright colored silky blouse or maybe a pullover top that had shimmer, and slightly bigger than normal jewelry.

  18. Be Gneiss*

    I just want to say that I love the helpful scripting from Alison that I can make use of in all kinds of situations – especially things like “It’s really weird that you keep bringing that up…”

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      That one is a favorite of mine as well. I also love, “I notice X, what’s going on?”

    2. Flash Packet*

      “I think we need to come up with a different idea for a team building activity. Not everyone on the team can zipline / rock climb / play paintball / other athletic activity, and it’s hard to build a team if you exclude some of the people.”

      “I’m happy to sign a card for the Big Boss, but I’m not contributing to a gift and I don’t think anyone should even ask that of the people in levels below mine. They don’t get paid as much as you, Intermediate Boss. Their name on the card will make the gift inclusive of everyone, regardless of who actually pays for it.”

      “I’m going to opt out of ‘my turn’ at bringing in baked goods to the office. (1) You’re only asking the women, which is really problematic, and (2) I don’t think we should be telling anyone who isn’t a manager to provide food for the department. Even if the company were to pay for it, it’s still infringing on their personal time.”

  19. Hmmm*

    I’ve written here before, some details may be familiar from my posts eight months ago.

    I worked for a very public family media business with less than ten employees for 14 years and kept it going with an absentee GM. I never had a management title. When the GM retired suddenly, instead of allowing anyone to apply, he hired his political buddy to be GM. After two tense conversations about not being given a chance to apply, and feeling pushed aside and pushed out by the new GM, I quit. The company lost 35% of its business within two weeks (accounts left) and two other critical employees followed me out the door. What you must know is until this happened, I loved my job and place of work.

    After six months of PAIN on their end, the owner called and begged me to come back and “fix it,” his words. For public perception, he didn’t want to fire or demote the GM. I was offered a job “equal” to the GM. The GM was unaware I’d been called, and I was told if the GM got mad about me coming back, they were going to let him quit and I’d be GM. The GM now handles sales and I handle the rest of our work, including the people. I negotiated a 75%raise, walking back in with all my seniority, twice the PTO and monthly profit sharing. I’m making more money than ever before. Everyone in our small town knows why I was begged back, and that I was begged back. GM is crystal clear that we are equal and I have more responsibility. He’s not coming in very often, claiming illness. He actually said “I think my body let me hang on until you got back, but now it’s falling apart,” and my former GM (that hired him) and I both think he’ll quit in the new year. For reasons, we think he’ll stay till then. Still, every now and then, he’ll make a subtle little comment that insinuates he’s my boss. He does this most when we’re in front of other people. He’s not, and while I think most people get it, he still has that GM title. Any advice on shutting this down?

    If it came down to him or me, the owner and his family aren’t going to let me be the one who leaves this time. Everything else is fantastic. Business has followed me back, just this one tiny little thing.

    1. Not Today, Satan*

      “It’s so odd that you’re referring to yourself as my manager. What’s up with that?”

      1. Hmmm*

        It’s more subtle than that. I think. As an example, I was meeting yesterday with two women I’ve met with before. They know me, they know what I do. He popped in to introduce himself, which is fine, but went on to say “Hmmm handles all of our xxx and xxx…” I looked at him a little puzzled and just continued my meeting. It’s stuff like that.

        1. Roland*

          If I’m in a meeting with someone whose job I know, and someone pops in and says “Hmmm handles all of our xxx and xxx”, that doesn’t make me think “oh he’s the manager”, it makes me think “who’s this guy and why is he introducing a person I’m clearly already working with”.

        2. Green Beans*

          I think your response of looking puzzled and moving on is fine. Make it clear with your behavior and decisions that you are the authority and treat it like a confusing mishap when he implies otherwise. Your work should speak for itself.

    2. I edit everything*

      I’d probably just wait it out. Turn it into a game. Every five comments, buy yourself a new pen or cupcake or bottle of whisky or whatever. The end of the year is only two months away.

      1. Hmmm*

        Probably my best bet. I suppose if he ends up staying past the new year I could address it then. I’ve been back about six weeks, and it does seem like he’s naturally kind of reducing his role.

      2. Warrior Princess Xena*

        This is the best way to handle the BEC stage of dealing with someone I’ve ever heard of.

    3. Mill Miker*

      Since they let him keep the title due to concerns around public perception, is it possible this behaviour is part of that? Was it to save the public perception of him, or the business? If the goal was to make it look like the company hadn’t made a mistake, then it kinda makes sense that he’d make the occasional comment to support that. Still sounds very annoying though.

    4. OtterB*

      I can see why it would be annoying, but if it’s not affecting what you get to do, or even people’s impressions of you, then I think your best bet is to shrug it off. He’s making some uncomfortable adjustments, and it sounds like he’s making them reasonably well if not totally gracefully, so I’d let the odd moments pass with a quizzical look unless they get worse or more frequent.

  20. Murfle*

    I found out this week that some members of my department/team are getting laid off. But the way the company is going about it feels weird:

    – The affected people will not be terminated immediately; they will be working with us “for a while, going forward”. This will cascade out over “several months” and they will have opportunities to find new roles within the company.
    – We’ve been told to not try and figure out who is being let go in order to respect people’s privacy – which means that the people who *are* being let go aren’t getting any condolence messages. I worry about how isolated they feel.
    – When asked for further detail about the layoffs and why they’re happening, my grandboss read out the official statement from the company, and added the following: “There’s not a lot of information here, except to say that this has happened”

    AAM has said in the past that you should contact your laid-off coworkers – but how do I even know if they are if the company won’t say who, and we’ve been discouraged from trying to find out for ourselves?

    1. Everything Bagel*

      It will probably become evident over time who is leaving. Don’t have to start transitioning their work and will be looking for other jobs, possibly within the company. I think at that point it’s safe to reach out to someone who has made it known they’re leaving.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Yuck.

      I wonder if they’re hoping that people will just quietly rearrange their deck chairs and/or abandon ship enough that they won’t have to go through the awkward firing process and/or severance payouts.

      And how is anyone to believe that there will be stability in the new internal positions?

      This seems to be a place to leave regardless of whether they’ve told you you’re on the list.

    3. Bagpuss*

      Well, it sounds as though the company is trying to redeploy people internally so they haven’t yet been let go, and presumablhy when they actually leave you will know and will be able to contact them and offer sympathy at that point.
      Presumably also there is nothing to stop people sharing the information if they have been told that they are going to be moved or let go .
      If you are in person or have staff chat then perhaps you could meantion something about how you hope that those who ae affected feel they can talk about it if they want to, and if you think your manager would be receptive you could perhaps suggest to thrm that they clarify that and make clear thast while peopl shouldn’t speculate, affecgted staff are of course free toddiscuss the situation with their coworkers if they want to

      1. Yay! I’m a llama again!*

        This is similar to how my old department did it, and as one of the people in the situation of being let go, it was really hard. There was so much gossip and speculation about who was staying/going – the department never made a formal announcement, people just gradually kept disappearing. It was horrid. I knew I was impacted and wondered why people didn’t say anything, they found out that they’d assumed I wasn’t impacted. If there is any way of acknowledging it to a group even though you don’t know specifically who it is, I’d do that. I don’t understand why companies do this! Being told ‘not to try to find out’ won’t work, there will be loads of speculation, and someone will be hurt that the fact they’re leaving hasn’t been acknowledged. We lost 75% of the department; an email from bosses that ‘these are the people staying, please reach out to your impacted colleagues’ would have been so helpful. Sorry, I think this has turned into a rant that I’ve been suppressing for a year…

          1. Yay! I’m a llama again!*

            Thank you. It was the disaster we knew it would be and they’ve been trying to recruit for almost six months now.

    4. introverted af*

      I know on MS Teams you can have a status message that shows up whenever anybody messages you. If there’s anything concrete you wanted to offer (going for coffee, to be a reference, to help navigate internal applications for other roles), you could put a message there. It opens you up to possible requests from people you don’t want to hear from, but lets you offer proactively.

    5. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      Ugh. My company recently had layoffs but we didn’t know who…since they were leaving immediately I was able to search for colleagues I like on Slack to see if they were still active. I get the reason for not publishing a list but it felt really crappy all around. (Also, language like “we are unable to offer them continued employment” versus “we’re laying people off” was ridiculous. They continue to call it a “staff action” which makes me stabby.)

    6. time for cocoa*

      If your org is big enough and you’re in the US, the advanced notice could be mandatory via the WARN Act. So handling this sloppily/begrudgingly could be a reflection on the fact that they were forced to preshare, rather than doing so willingly.

    7. Girasol*

      I’ve seen that model. For us it meant that some people being laid off would be notified early of a future layoff date so that they would stay long enough to train their offshore replacements. That did give people a chance to say goodbye. Some were told then immediately escorted out, boxes in hand, without the opportunity to say goodbye to coworkers who were staying. That was really rough on both the leavers and the stayers. “Don’t try to figure it out ahead of the announcement” is standard advice in these cases. Managers want heads down and deadlines met even when people are afraid they’ll lose their jobs, and they don’t want to be asked tough questions before they have been given the answers by their own bosses. Some things you can do now: encourage coworkers to share contact info or link up on Linked In so that if worst comes to worst, goodbyes and offers to support one another’s job searches can be exchanged outside the office. Any personal records (positive evaluations, kudos, etc.) and work samples that aren’t restricted by non-disclosure could be saved off on personal storage and any personal business that might have been placed on company equipment could be erased.

  21. LeftAcademia*

    How do you network with researchers out of a tiny R&D department of tea cup painters? Our R&D was originally founded for tea cup design research. The tea cup painters were meant to be supporting personnel. By a strange twist of fate, after two years my role shifted to being the only tea cup painting researcher in the company. Before joining R&D I was a tea cup painting researcher for two years, having switched from a previous academic career as a tea plate design researcher.

    1. Policy Wonk*

      Is there any kind of professional organization you could join, or conferences you could attend? If not, maybe reach out to former colleagues for a networking lunch or happy hour, see if people respond.

      1. shruggie*

        This! You can also check for less formal groups in your local area (probably city size dependent but worth a look); I’ve found industry-specific happy hours, lunch & learns, and similar on meetup.com and just by googling.

      2. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

        I found that linking up with one or two professional organizations enabled me to extend my career another 20 years.

  22. Anika*

    For the past few months I have been the primary employee working on a project, which just wrapped up. I have stayed up late many nights working on it and worked over many weekends. I was also the most junior person involved — there were a few senior people involved in a more supervisory, less time-intensive capacity (my grandboss, Jake, was technically in charge of it) but it was very publicly known as my project and I did 95% of the work.

    Our company has a weekly meeting where teams that have recently completed projects present those projects to executives and other stakeholders, explaining the finished product and walking them through the process that led to it. In the past, when I’ve been the lead on projects like this one (with the same supervisory group) I’ve always been part of these presentations. However, a few weeks ago I found out that my project was presented at last week’s meeting, and that Jake and all the less-involved senior people had done the presentation without me. I watched the recording — Jake and the others did not mention my name once, and kept using the pronoun “we” as they walked through the process as if they had done all the work. It was incredibly upsetting to see, particularly because I was the only woman involved in the project and already had had imposter syndrome throughout the process.

    I went to my boss, Theo (who was not directly involved in any of this) and expressed my concern. He was also very upset that I hadn’t been invited to the meeting, and said he would speak to Jake about it. The answer he got from Jake, which he relayed to me the next day, was very unsatisfying: Jake apparently just told him that the meetings are time constrained and they can’t accommodate everyone who wants to present every time, but that the company does hold workshops for junior employees who are looking for presentation practice.

    As someone who has presented projects like this at these meetings dozens of times before, this felt like a dismissive and condescending answer. I also don’t really believe it; I’ve asked around, and I haven’t heard of any other junior-level project leads being snubbed like this recently. I’ve cried about it, I’ve lost sleep, and I’m having trouble focusing on my job. I’m constantly wondering if I messed up in a recent presentation, if Jake thought I didn’t perform well, or if there’s some other reason that’s being concealed from me. I love everything else about this job and I want to stay here, but this incident has really impacted my work.

    My question is: Would it be inappropriate for me to message Jake myself and ask what was going on? I don’t want to go behind Theo’s back, but the answer Theo relayed to me was worse than no answer at all. Would it be better for me to ask Theo to push for more information? Am I just overreacting to this in general?

    1. jane's nemesis*

      You’re not overreacting, but I don’t think you should message Jake. I would push Theo for more information. Ask him why Jake said you should go to presentation practice when you’ve already been the presenter on projects like these dozens of times.

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      No, don’t go around your boss, and no, you’re not necessarily overreacting. I think you are upset because fundamentally, it has been brought home to you that your work for this company is not going to be acknowledged or valued in a meaningful way. I would start looking for a new job and use Theo as a reference for this one.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree. I did leave a job over a similar situation where I (the woman who did the lion’s share of work in a specific area) was passed over for the official lead role in favor of a male colleague with little experience, since ultimately that was just another clear example of how my hard work was valued by everyone except the few people who could do something about promotion/recognition.

        It might not have been deliberate (as in malicious) that the senior people didn’t credit you by name, but I’d still consider it a huge oversight and speaks poorly to the culture if that’s the norm. The response from Jake missed the point entirely, and is pretty condescending in framing it as “oh she can get presentation practice at less important meetings.” Sure makes it sound like the seniors don’t care who puts in the actual effort as long as they get results attached to their names.

    3. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Well, on the next project, keep asking questions. “Should I be doing this?” “Is this in my wheelhouse.” Let them be on record saying “yes!” Then you can gently push back and say you were confused by roles, being newer with less experience, becuase it seems as if the last project wasn’t really yours.

    5. CatCat*

      You’re not overreacting and you should not go around your boss.

      The simple answer here is that Jake is an asshole.

      It’s his nature. It has nothing to do with you and everything to do with him. You haven’t done anything wrong. You’re second guessing yourself because you’re a conscientious and reasonable person and are operating with that as a norm that your mind expects other people to adhere to. But that is not Jake’s norm. Because he’s an asshole.

      The question for you is not something like “how can *I* fix this ” because you can’t. Jake will keep doing asshole things because he is an asshole. The question for you is do you want to keep working there knowing this.

    6. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Honestly, I would start looking for another job if you’re able. Maybe in the same company, but for sure externally. I know it may seem extreme, but the management in your company is telling you who they are, so believe them. That you are wondering if somehow YOU messed up a previous presentation, and thus weren’t included when you should have been, is textbook gaslighting. Also, please take this as a push to NOT work late nights, or any other extras for this employer. You sound like a wonderful worker, and your current employer doesn’t seem to appreciate that.

    7. Jessica*

      I’m not sure what to do but you are NOT overreacting. Also, you sound awesome and I bet a better employer would appreciate you. :-)

    8. anonandold*

      I would actually probably (because I am difficult this way) find a nice open forum and literally ask Jake about technical details about the project and how he solved them. I also would ask him what about his presentation style made it better. As in how he presented the information stylistically that made him effective.
      Or depending on my mood I would simply state the next project he was the lead on that you couldn’t do all that work, when obviously he needs to know more about it, since he is doing the important presentation work.
      Or I would be very nice to Jake and always talk very technical to him about everything.
      BTW if the senior group is actually smart, they will immediately know who did what work on a project. By how Jake presents. And unless Jake is a brilliant presenter they will question why he was standing there kibitzing at them.
      Eh, I will probably go with being very nice to Jake and documenting with a huge trail all the work you do. Make sure Theo includes your work on this project in your review. (I freely admit to being nice to people just to annoy them)
      Do remember Jake’s behavior isn’t a reflection of your work or behavior, it’s a reflection of his.

  23. Just Want A Nap*

    I won some tickets in a raffle for a sports game, supposed to be 2 tickets just in the rows. I was pumped, I never win raffles.
    I was psyched because I love the sport, and I have exactly 1 friend at any given time who is able to go with me. (Only person in the friend group who works a 9-5)
    The admin in charge of ordering decided to upgrade the tickets to 3 tickets, box seats “to be nice”, and the office manager told me not to waste the last ticket because “They’re expensive.”
    I don’t HAVE 2 friends with schedules that work with this, and while I love the sport I don’t care about the team: I have no game gear, so I’d feel weird being in box seats.

    Turns out the Admin never ordered the tickets, my one friend is disappointed but we’re rescheduling. Now I’m looking for the script for a polite but firm “Do not get me 3 tickets, please let me be in the rows and not in the box seats” since “I don’t have enough friends” sounds… upsetting?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Claim its a date – Oh I was actually going to ask someone out with these, would it be possible to just get 2?
      Invite the admin to go with you on the 3rd?

      1. Just Want A Nap*

        I’d invite her but she wants to bring her toddler, which puts me back in the same “I have 3 tickets and I’m 3rd wheeling my own prize”

    2. Anika*

      Can you offer the third ticket to a coworker, or offer to let the friend you’re inviting bring someone? Could be a good opportunity to get to know someone better!

      Do not worry about feeling weird in the box seats. I’ve been to a lot of these games — I promise you will not be the only ones without game gear. Lots of people get these tickets through work/clients/whatever.

      These tickets sound like a nice bonus to me – I would take them!

      1. Middle of HR*

        This, especially about game gear. So many people just roll in wearing whatever. No reason to feel self conscious.

      2. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

        I agree with the team gear. I live in the smallest NFL city and people of all fandoms and non-fandoms come just to be at the stadium. I’ve been in the box seats and while there are some dresses in team apparel, there’s plenty not. It’s not a big deal.

      3. Allison*

        I’m known in one of my circles for being the person who will show up to games. I love box seats, no matter who’s playing. Enjoy!

    3. bicality*

      Have you said anything back to the admin yet? I’d say something like “Actually this works out better. I really only have one person who is able to go with me. And don’t worry about box seats, we like the atmosphere of the rows better. Thanks!”

      1. Anika*

        “Actually I already invited one friend, and I was really looking forward to just catching up with her, so I’m only going to ask for two – thanks!”

    4. BellyButton*

      “I know you were going to order the box seats, but I would prefer the regular seats and just need 2. “

    5. Peachtree*

      Just say you’ve checked with your friends and you only need two tickets, so can you be upgraded to the original prize?

    6. Esmeralda*

      Fuck the office manager, if you can’t use the ticket, you can’t use the ticket. It’s a prize, it’s given to you to USE AS YOU WANT. Don’t ask for the rows. You can ask for just two tickets, but if you get three, then you get three.

      I dunno, maybe offer it to a nonprofit you support to give to someone. But only if you want to.

      What an asshole the office manager is!

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Yeah … why upgrade the prize and then apply all the guilt about fully “appreciating” all that they have done for them?

        What are they going to do? Attend and monitor how many seats are filled in that box? Dock your pay if your 3rd friend is in the bathroom?

        You could also take the 3 tickets, then swap with people waiting in line for ordinary ones.

      2. Hiring Mgr*

        Why are they an ahole? All they did was get an extra ticket and upgrade for Nap. I agree with the advice to just take your one friend regardless of how many tickets you have, but as far as I can see the admin did nothing wrong

        1. Everything Bagel*

          Giving someone a gift and then telling them not to waste it or to make sure they use all of it because of what it cost you is pretty rude.

        2. WellRed*

          Not the admin, the manager told Nap not to waste the ticket because they’re expensive. You don’t guilt someone into doing something (look how much this is stressing Nap out) and you don’t imply the recipient of a prize or gift better appreciate it all the more because it’s expensive.

        3. Esmeralda*

          Not the admin, the office manager, who said “now don’t waste it” — thats the obnoxious bit.

    7. Sunflower*

      I think you should just send a friendly email ‘Hey! It’s actually better for me to just go with the 2 tickets vs 3 in a box. Let me know if you have any other questions before ordering’.

    8. Some Bunny Once Told Me*

      I’m not sure what sport this is, but I’ve been to a *ton* of hockey games over the years, some of which were in boxes, and I promise you that not wearing a bunch of swag won’t make you stand out in any way. If you have clothing in the team’s colors that might be nice to wear, but it’s certainly not going to earn you weird looks if you’re just in everyday street clothes.

      That said, if you truly do just want the two seats in the rows then I’d say “I really appreciate the consideration of upgrading me to three seats in the box, that’s very thoughtful! But I’d honestly prefer just the two seats in the rows.” and leave it at that. I’d also tell you not to worry about feeling like you don’t have enough friends – I’ve got a ton of friends, but most of them aren’t into sports and wouldn’t want to go to a hockey game with me, and that’s okay! Nobody’s going to assume that you’re friendless, I promise.

  24. juniper*

    Question about applying for a job.

    Found the posting for a job I really want, talked to a friend/former supervisor who works there about it, she was mostly encouraging. Then I had three weeks of life happen, never worked on my resume and ultimately talked myself out of it thinking they would have filled it by now.

    I checked today and the posting is still open. Is it worth applying?

    I keep talking myself out of it, thinking they’ll judge me for having waited so long, but I think this may just be my anxiety talking.

    1. bicality*

      You won’t know unless you apply! All positions are different. If it’s still open, it’s worth a shot.

    2. jane's nemesis*

      they don’t know when you first saw it! You could have just stumbled upon it this morning for the first time. I know you talked to your friend who works there, but they’re not going to tell the hiring manager the exact date you asked them about the position.

    3. Middle of HR*

      3 weeks is probably not enough time to fill it! I’ve been interviewing and so many places schedule at a pace of one interview a week, and candidates drop out all the time. And some places don’t even start reviewing resumes for weeks after the posting was added. Just apply as you planned! No one will judge you. (If they do, they’re not really going to be a good place to work.)

    4. urguncle*

      Three weeks in business time is not that many weeks. Definitely not enough to be considered judgement-worthy.

    5. I edit everything*

      Yes, send something in!

      I applied for a job just as the job description disappeared, and though I wasn’t hired, my kick-ass cover letter got me a lunch meeting with the hiring manager and a higher-up. So at the very least, I’ve made a connection there if anything comes up again. And lunch. Not saying that will happen for you, but there’s no harm in applying.

    7. Morgan Proctor*

      Why wouldn’t you apply? Why would we tell you not to apply? Don’t be your own worst enemy! You won’t get the things you want if you don’t try to get them.

    8. Green Beans*

      Definitely apply! Sometimes I take three weeks just to see if I’m actually interested in the job and it’s because I’m a fairly strong candidate. Nobody’s going to judge you for when you apply to an open job position, I promise. Stronger candidates tend to come in a little later anyways.

  25. DeeDee*

    I’m feeling annoyed about something and wondering if it’s valid or if it’s just a general bad mood I’m in.

    My boss asked me to put together PowerPoint decks for a couple of presentations she has to do. I did it, and she told me she was very happy with the results and that I did a great job. The first presentation happened, my boss sent me a message to say thanks and that it went really well.

    Then the day after the first presentation, I met with a colleague who told him she called him in a panic on Friday (the presentation was on Monday) and they ended up spending 4 hours over the weekend “rejigging” the presentation. (I saw a couple of the slides and it seemed like it made it worse. I’m a pretty decent designer, and it looks like the slides got turned into the kind of slides I’ll often see from folks without a lot of design experience—very busy, weird colours, no visual hierarchy, that kind of thing).

    The second presentation is today. Yesterday, my boss sent me a message about a diagram I had put on one of the slides and said something about it was wrong and sent an updated version she’d put together with my colleague and asked for what I thought. I had to point out that they’d actually made the diagram inaccurate with their changes. There were other superficial changes, too—just adjusting some colours and what not.

    I’ve been feeling actually really annoyed by this. If the slides were not going to suit, I wish my boss had just reached out to me instead of pulling in this other person. She didn’t have anything negative to say about the slides to me at all, and it’s left a sour taste in my mouth about the experience as well as this colleague (who is new). Am I over-reacting here?

    1. ecnaseener*

      No, I agree that’s super annoying. Even if she was right about the improvements, she should give feedback! Now you have to wonder how many other times she’s praised you to your face while privately thinking your work stank.

    2. ferrina*

      I’d have the same reaction as you. I’d be really annoyed that my boss lied to me and said she liked my presentation when she didn’t. Like- really? Just give me some feedback! I’m not personally attached to this! It would also make me wonder what else she’s not saying to me. Is she not giving me feedback about other things I should know?

      Do a quick moment of reflection to make sure it’s not you- do you usually take feedback well? If so, this is a boss problem. Is this something you can mitigate? Maybe, maybe not.

    3. NaoNao*

      Something very similar happened to me! My boss asked me to reformat some presentations last-minute and was over the moon excited about the results. Then I see she’s taken another pass at them and added some stuff/changed some items. I chalked it up to liking my version fine…for those circumstances. She got antsy pre-presentation and decided to go over it with a fine toothed comb but that doesn’t change how she did like my original work.

      I think both are true. She liked PPTX 1, but for whatever reason she needed a different approach, needed to add more information, was second guessing stuff, freaked out, etc.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Correcting work. My husband used to say if you do not give it back to the person who did it then that person never learns what was actually wanted.

    5. None the Wiser*

      Been there done that.

      Former boss asked me to make slide decks. Made great slide decks. Colors integrated, good composition, content and spatial. They proceeded to completely undo all my work to the point of it being unrecognizable.

  26. allornone*

    Today my office is celebrating take your pet to work day! It’s actually for our United Way charity drive (we give to them, they give back to us majorly), so for ten bucks, I get to work with my cat Catsby sitting on my desk by the window (a crappy view for me, but brand new and exciting to him!). It’s lovely and actually made me simultaneously wish I could work from home more, while realizing exactly why I shouldn’t. Another coworker brings his human baby in (with permission) on slow days (aside from being impossibly adorable, the baby is very well behaved, hardly fussy, and causes no problems for anyone else). I don’t know how he does it. My cat is asleep, just being a cat, and I want to fawn all over him. Precious little vicious muffin.

    2. snarkfox*

      CATSBY! I love it.

      I brought my dog to work for like a week last winter because my power was out for the whole week and my house was freezing, so I couldn’t leave my dog. It was actually kind of stressful and I couldn’t fully focus because I wanted to make sure my dog was doing okay, lol.

    3. Cookies for Breakfast*

      Catsby! What a brilliant name. I don’t have a cat (yet), but would gladly donate the ten bucks to spend time with my colleagues’ cats in the office.

    4. Queen Ruby*

      Oh, how I would love to bring my dog to the office with me, but I work in pharma and there can be no animals in the building. I think she would be a bit of a nuisance, though, wandering into each office, demanding attention and treats! And she’s way too big to ignore lol

    5. Bagpuss*

      Cute!. I don’t think my cats would enjoy going to the office as they are not fans of the carrier or the car.
      We do however have a cat who has joined our accounts department. He did not submit an application, just used his gumption, walked in, sat down and acted like he’s always been here. His name is Sid. He spends a lot of time sleeping on the job and doesn’t seem to know much about accounts, but he gets on well with his colleagues and is happy to be paid in scritches and admiration, so we decided to overlook his poor interview technique.

        1. Bagpuss*

          That’s our view. Sid is not very productive but he has excellent people management skills. In only a couple of weeks he has his staff perfectly trained to open doors, move chairs and our head cashier has rearranged their desk to accommodate his desire to sleep in their in-tray.

    6. allornone*

      Picture time just came. Apparently, Catsby is the only cat in this whole experience. Thankfully, I have one of those ventilated bubble backpacks to keep him in, because he DID NOT like all the other dogs. But he’s back safe in the quiet of my office now. And back to his window. Ironically, this is my first office with a window, and I’ve only been in here a couple of months. So it’s fate.

    8. Melanie Cavill*

      I just finished my second week at a new job with a dog friendly office and I couldn’t be happier (despite not being able to have pets my own self). I am making it my mission to befriend ALL THE DOGS.

  27. Sylvan*

    Any thoughts on Christmas parties without plus ones?

    My company’s holding a party with no plus ones this year. I’m not going, it’s just not my kind of thing with or without a date, but my coworkers who usually enjoy these parties are upset.

    1. londonedit*

      I’ve never worked anywhere that had a Christmas party that included plus-ones. So from my perspective, it’s a bit odd anyway! To me a work Christmas do is about having a nice evening/lunch out with your colleagues.

      1. Cookies for Breakfast*

        Same here. I’ve worked at startups where the number of extra guests would have been very small, as well as for a bigger company that didn’t hold back from involving people’s families in other ways (a Christmas gifts day for employees’ kids comes to mind), and never saw a Christmas party where plus-ones were allowed. No one I know has had parties like that in the UK, in fact. Could it be something that’s more common in other countries, like the US?

        Personally, I wouldn’t mind any of the possible scenarios (no plus-ones allowed at all; bringing a plus-one; going alone to a plus-ones allowed party). What I have seen happen often is colleagues going on to a different location after the “official” event, to continue the party at their own expense with others joining them (partners, friends, ex-colleagues, etc.).

    3. ScruffyInternHerder*

      Are they during the day, or outside of working hours?

      That was the benchmark my former employer used. During working hours? No plus one. Outside of working hours? Plus one.

      2. Sylvan*

        It’s outside of working hours. Also, people will be drinking, which raises some concerns about transportation IMO.

    4. DisneyChannelThis*

      It’s tacky but not egregious. I’d bet probably budget constraints (venue limits or catering charges per plate) or dealing with RSVP issues like more than +1 creep. (Well if my spouse is coming why can’t we bring the kids, and if the kids are coming why cant we bring our cousin…). No plus 1s is a easy headcount of employee lists for per plate charges.

      FWIW my partner hates the state of the company type address at parties anyway, and 90% of the conversations are shop talk they can’t really contribute to.

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        Mr. Glomarization has the same attitude towards my workplace’s holiday party. He’s in a very different industry to mine and the conversation — when he can even hear it over the music and noise — tends to be very boring lawyer shop talk.

      1. Sylvan*

        Yeah, I’m starting to get the impression that my company was unusual for previously allowing plus ones! It’s helpful to get a sense of the norm here.

    6. Nicki Name*

      I wonder what the prospective plus-ones think. At a past ex-job, the Christmas party was done that way, and several of my teammates shared that their spouses and partners were glad to be free of that social obligation. (As was Mr. Name.)

      1. Roland*

        I worked for a company that stopped doing +1s and plenty of +1s were disappointed. They were good parties! Though they also became bad parties when they cut the +1s since it was all a budget thing.

    7. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I think I’m literally 50%-50% on offices I’ve worked at where the holiday party allowed plus ones versus no plus ones. But Mr. Glomarization has mostly worked places where the holiday party was no plus ones, because the workplace holiday party is for the employees only. I don’t care one way or the other — I like the free food and socializing.

      People will get upset when they perceive that something they deserve is being taken away. Whatever. Better a holiday party without plus ones than no holiday party at all, I say.

    8. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Most of my workplaces did not invite plus ones, so this is pretty normal for me. My previous company did, and my partner joined me, but after we moved away he had zero interest in attending– he only liked one of my co-workers and that guy didn’t attend.

      I’d prefer a party without plus ones, to be honest. There’s so much work talk, for starters, and I find holiday parties to be a good opportunity to hang out with people from different teams. When my partner is there it’s a bit more formal and I have to introduce him to everyone and make sure he doesn’t repeat some of the stories I’ve told him.

    9. Not Today, Satan*

      I think your coworkers need to… grow up. It’s 3-4 hours spent among coworkers. If they’re mad about something that’s basically a corporate gift to workers, they can express their displeasure by not going at all.

    10. Irish Teacher*

      That seems completely like the norm to me. I have never attended a work party that invited plus ones and to be honest, I wouldn’t like it much if they did. At my college reunion, we were allowed to bring plus ones and like one person from my year did. Poor guy; he must have been completely bored while we all talked teaching stuff and compared the schools we were working in.

      Like I said, I’ve never been to a work party that had plus ones, but I sort of feel people would feel they had to stay with their partner who wouldn’t know anybody else and wouldn’t really be able to chat properly to their colleagues. Maybe schools differ from offices here as we often jump back and forth between personal and school chat.

      I definitely wouldn’t want to bring anybody with me to a work party. I’d feel awkward about how much time I spend talking with them versus with my colleagues. And honestly, I think even if plus ones were allowed, it would make me less likely to attend a staff party as it would make it more of a party-party and less of a nice relaxing evening with my colleagues. I’m comfortable with my colleagues. Having to make small talk with strangers…sounds a lot less fun to me. (To be fair, this may be personal to me as I sort of have a number of autistic like traits, including difficulty with things like banter and small talk.)

    11. Sunflower*

      As someone who has never had a plus one, I prefer this. It’s a work party- I came to spend time with my coworkers. If you don’t want to spend time with your coworkers and would rather spend the night with your spouse, stay home?

      1. Rose*

        SAME. While I actually enjoy my colleague’s significant others (small company, so I have met them all), it is nice to spend time socially with just my colleagues (we are 100% remote now, so are not together in person very often). Plus, it is one less reminder that I DON’T have a plus one if no one is there with one…whereas previously, I was usually the only one without a plus one.

    12. I should really pick a name*

      Doesn’t make a difference to me. If there’s a plus one, I bring one, if not, I don’t. Doesn’t have a major effect on my enjoyment.

      I get that people will be upset because they’re losing something that they used have.

    13. Bernice Clifton*

      As someone who has planned a lot of them, I do not care either way, except when people bring +1s without asking.

      1. Allison*

        This! I wound up planning the holiday parties for my last company, and we’d have a lot of people announce they were bringing several people.

    14. WantonSeedStitch*

      Holiday parties where I work are held during work hours, and there are no plus ones. It’s nice because it means we don’t have to take time away from families and friends to attend, and it’s time we’re getting paid for when we don’t have to actually work. If I worked somewhere that did a party that WASN’T during work hours, I would want it to include a plus one so I wouldn’t have to ditch my significant other to spend time with my coworkers, even if I enjoyed my coworkers.

    15. Morgan Proctor*

      Super weird. I briefly worked at an agency that did this. Not only was the Christmas party no +1’s, it was also no alcohol, in the middle of a workday, and we had to go back to work after. This was indicative of the larger company culture, for which I was NOT a good fit. I’ve never worked anywhere else that didn’t allow +1’s.

    16. RisRose13*

      My previous company did not allow +1s, and my husband’s (very small) company did. For the first few years our holiday dinners fell on different dates and I went to mine alone and accompanied him to his. My final year with previous employer they decided to allow spouses/fiancés, so my husband would finally be allowed to attend and meet some of the people I had been working with for the past 3 years! Unfortunately our companies scheduled the holiday dinner for the same date that year and we both went alone to our respective employer’s event. I had to do a lot of answering “Why is spouse not here tonight?” and some of my higher ups seemed put out that they finally allowed spouses and mine did not attend.

    17. Eff Walsingham*

      My former company had (pre-Covid) rather legendary holiday parties with plus-ones, but employees only, no contractors. My spouse was (still is) a contactor with the same company. This caused some confusion, as he was both invited and prohibited… Schrodinger’s guest, if you will? Anyway, we ended up sharing a table with his colleagues and supervisor. So there wasn’t anything sneaky about it, but we did catch sight of a few funny looks on management faces before they remembered, Oh yeah, we ok’d this!

  28. TMI sorry!*

    This is kind of a weird question, but the other post from today about hearing everything going on in the bathroom got me thinking about a work situation that I found to be awkward and I really don’t know how I should’ve handled it.

    I have a digestive issue that’s basically akin to IBS, so when I go to the bathroom, I really don’t know how long I’ll be in there or just how bad this particular bathroom situation is going to be. I don’t want to get graphic here, but I think you can use your imagination as to what might be occurring. As such, I use the disabled toilet because it’s a single stall and I really don’t want the added anxiety of people hearing/smelling my issues.

    A few months ago, I was in there and yeah, it was taking a while. I heard a knock on the door. I said “someone’s in here, I’ll just be a moment.” My coworker recognized my voice and is like “TMI, is that you?” I’m like “uh yeah?” very awkwardly.

    The situation was, her client is a wheelchair user, so she was waiting for the bathroom. She needed someone to help open the door, and my coworker said she didn’t have time to wait, so she left the client out there for me to hold the door open for when I was done. Which was already embarrassing, but then the client started muttering to herself how much she needed to go. So then I “stopped the flow” and let her in and just… held it… until she was done and I could go back to the bathroom.

    It was just so awkward. They don’t know about my personal bathroom situation, so I think the wheelchair user just thought I was using the disabled toilet because I didn’t want to use the other one. But I feel like it’s even more awkward to explain to your coworker and her disabled client that you’re in there having… graphic issues.

    Was I wrong for using the disabled toilet? I’ve done some research online, and everything I’ve read says people with IBS can use the disabled toilet, but I technically can use the other one, whereas the wheelchair user can’t. I feel like my coworker was wrong for leaving her client stranded in the hallway (and she could’ve taken her to another floor in the elevator to use the disabled toilet, to be fair). I just… never want to have to deal with something so awkward again.

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I think if you know you’ve got some people who cannot use the regular stalls then there’s reason for you to not take that one out of commission for long periods of time. Bathrooms have people pooping in them, that’s just facts of life. No one expects the bathroom to be scentless.

      1. snarkfox*

        I guess I can make sure to use the regular bathroom (or go to the family restroom on another floor) but it’s not about the bathroom being “scentless.”

        I really don’t want to get graphic, but these aren’t normal bathroom smells! And it’s incredibly loud… and painful. And when someone walks in the bathroom, my anxiety makes it harder to “go” because I know how bad the sounds and smell are, and then it hurts even more.

        1. Random Bystander*

          So, if I understand correctly, this is actually just a single-user restroom that has a door that can accommodate a wheelchair + the other elements that make it accessible? I don’t know if there are other single-user restrooms with narrower doors, but I suspect not.

          The basic premise is that, unlike parking spots (which are reserved to those disabled identified by a license plate or hangtag in jurisdictions I’ve lived in), the stall is accessible for but *not* reserved to disabled users. Now that doesn’t mean that you should gleefully run ahead of someone who is using a wheelchair to “snag” the bathroom, but there are plenty of reasons why a person might need this more accessible stall that aren’t obvious and aren’t the business of anyone else.

          As far as co-worker’s actions, those all seem inappropriate (calling to you by name ) *and* leaving the client alone.

    2. Sylvan*

      I mean, you did use the wheelchair-accessible toilet because you didn’t want to use the other one.

      It’s very understandable that you would prefer the wheelchair-accessible one. But I think it’s best to leave those toilets for people who aren’t able to use the other ones. I am disabled and I try to avoid the wheelchair-accessible toilet because it’s not my only option, while for some people, it is.

      1. snarkfox*

        I mean, yeah, I guess it’s that I “didn’t want to” because the experience is very painful on a good day, and it’s even more painful when someone else comes into the bathroom because my anxiety makes my stomach seize up and I can’t “go,” which hurts even more.

        Honestly, I was more making mention of how awkward it is for my coworker to call me by name outside the bathroom and then leave her client with me, and less about using the disabled toilet (and IBS is considered a disability). Like… that’s really not okay, right??

    3. Gatomon*

      I think it’s fine to use the accessible toilet. You have a medical need, period. I doubt the person using the wheelchair is unfamiliar with invisible disabilities.

      Your coworker should’ve offered to take the client to another accessible toilet since it sounds like there’s more than one there, and absolutely not left them stranded outside the door!

      1. TMI sorry!*

        You’re the only one that thinks this, actually. But yep, there are at least 14 disabled toilets in the building, she would just need to take them there, but she said she “didn’t have time” so she just left her in the hallway.

        Most of the comments are focused on why I shouldn’t use the disabled toilet, but like… I was really talking more about the part where my coworker yelled my name outside the bathroom and then just left her client there. She later apologized, but I felt even more awkward because I didn’t really want to explain.

        I also need access to a sink in the stall for obvious reasons, which is another reason I use the disabled toilet aside from privacy, but that I didn’t want to have to explain to my coworker either!

        1. Irish Teacher*

          In that case, your coworker was definitely the one out of line. I didn’t see a problem with you using the disabled toilet anyway, but I guess if there was only one, one could argue that there were other people who need it more, but if there 14 toilets that people with disabilities can use, I see absolutely no reason why they should be reserved only for those whose disability means they absolutely cannot physically use the other toilets.

          I think your coworker also behaved fairly poorly to the client. Did the client hear her saying she “didn’t have time”? If they did, I think that would make them feel like she felt they were a nuisance/didn’t want to assist them.

          1. TMI sorry!*

            I can’t remember exactly what my coworker said in the moment, but she definitely indicated that she had to go and couldn’t wait to hold the door open for her client. And actually, I was being vague, but my coworker is a therapist and the client is her patient, so I’m now really realizing just how inappropriate that was for her to treat the patient that way…..

        2. WantonSeedStitch*

          As far as I can see it, you needed the accessible toilet for medical reasons. Those reasons are no less valid than being a wheelchair user. If there were other accessible toilets in the building, your coworker should ABSOLUTELY have brought their client to one of those. I bet the client felt awful!

        3. Reba*

          I 100% think you are using the right bathroom for you. *Especially* since there are other options your client/your coworker could have used! Sheesh.

          Even if there was only the one stall, this would have been an unfortunate instance of conflicting needs, not you being in the wrong.

        4. Gatomon*

          Well maybe I’m an oddball or something, but I don’t believe toilets should be reserved only for those who visibly “need” to use them. It’d be one thing if you were occupying it to do a long makeup regimen or you were sitting there scrolling on your phone and lost track of time, but using the toilet as a toilet is what it is there *for.* Trying to determine who has a valid need to use an accessible/single-stall toilet is just gatekeeping and intrusive. I would suggest we trust people are making the appropriate choice unless/until we learn otherwise.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      Since you can and wheelchair users can’t, I would leave it open unless you can be very sure there won’t be anyone else around who needs it (shortly before closing, or whatever, or if you know this person usually comes during X time of the week).

      1. Dust Bunny*

        I also wonder if the “IBS sufferers can use the accessible toilet” is intended to prevent companies from insisting GI sufferers go to another floor or something if the regular toilets on their floor are occupied, simply because they’re not literally in wheelchairs. But it’s not the same level of need as someone who is in a wheelchair and can’t even get into the stall of a regular bathroom.

      2. snarkfox*

        Well, I didn’t want to get graphic, but one of the main reasons I need it is because it has a sink in the stall. I often need to “clean up” after these particular excursions. I can’t do that in the regular bathroom since the sink is outside the stall.

        But it’s true that I can physically use the regular bathroom… I just would be uncomfortable and unhygienic until I could get to the other bathroom.

        1. snarkfox*

          aaaaaaand I just realized I was replying with my regular username instead of the TMI one. cool. cool cool cool

        2. By Golly*

          I am with you on this. I always like Alison’s insistence that we all maintain a polite fiction that people in the bathroom are invisible/inaudible. Your coworker violated this by calling you by name and asking you to do something for her client while you were in the bathroom. Ideally she would have taken (or directed) the client to another accessible bathroom. I would think that the client muttering about how much she needed to go should have clued her in to that (unless the colleague had already left?). You have a need for the accessible bathroom. You are fine using it. There are many others in the building. (I’m not sure that should matter, but it does provide some additional cover.)

          1. TMI sorry!*

            Yeah, so I’m not even particularly shy about “bathroom stuff.” It happens, you know? But AT WORK, it’s just different.

            My coworker was long gone by the time her client was muttering about much she needed to go. And to be clear, I don’t blame the woman for saying she really needed to go because she was stranded in a hallway and maybe she couldn’t wait. and the bathrooms are locked and my coworker took the key, so there was no way for the wheelchair user to even get into another bathroom.

            1. linger*

              Possibly coworker called to you (by name) merely to confirm there was someone else with a key there, so that she *could* leave her client? Still not great all round, but a little more understandable. And trying to determine “who has the most need” for a handicapped loo is, by definition, a pissing contest; all needs are valid, the most urgent need is simply the one felt first, and no apology should be required (especially since the resources available are in fact sufficient for the demand).

    5. ferrina*

      I think it depends on the situation. Are there other options for the wheelchair users or others that may need to use the disabled toilet? How long would you be asking them to wait?

      In general, I want to say it’s okay, but really, if you are blocking someone else’s access when you don’t have to, well, it’s not really okay. I don’t think you should never use it, but also not default to it. Use your discretion based on your knowledge of your body (and if you know that the wheelchair client is visiting, default to a not-disabled toilet so the client is able to use the bathroom)

      1. snarkfox*

        It’s actually a family/unisex/disabled restroom, so it’s not exclusively for wheelchair users, I guess. Everyone at work uses it, tbh, not just me, but I think I’m just the only one unlucky enough to be in there when my coworker decided to call me out by name and leave her disabled client with me.

        But it’s not just that it’s private, it’s also that there’s a sink in there. I frequently have to make use of the sink in ways that I wouldn’t be able to in the public one down the hallway… unless I waddled out with my pants down and just… smiled at whoever is in there, I guess? And then waddled back into the stall to clean up.

        1. Yay! I’m a llama again!*

          I think you should carry on using that stall, there are other bathrooms that the client should have been taken to – your colleague was wrong.

          If it had been another wheelchair user in there who needed time, would your colleague have left the client there?

          You had valid reason to be in there. Carry on.

        2. ferrina*

          I’m changing my answer, then. I missed that there were other bathrooms that the client could have used. If the client had access to other bathrooms (your coworker just didn’t take them there), then that is on your coworker, not you. You aren’t limiting access, and you clearly have a need for it. NTA.

    6. Roland*

      There’s not rules for who can or can’t use a specific toilet style that you can find by doing more research. Unless there is a situation where it’s like you know this specific wheelchair user has IBS and you run ahead of them to beat them you just aren’t “taking a bathroom away from someone”.

      The reason this was awkward is because your weirdo coworker thought it was okay to converse with people using the toilet. And the if the client truly wasn’t able to wait and also for whatever reason could not wheel to another toilet or call the coworker back, then again it’s the coworker who dropped the ball by abandoning them. You will never be able to change your behavior enough to prevent other people from behaving badly.

      1. TMI sorry!*

        Thank you… I was a bit baffled by all the comments telling me I shouldn’t use the disabled toilet… I mean, their opinion is relevant, but my real focus of this question was what my coworker did because she “didn’t have time” to take the woman to another bathroom.

        I truly didn’t know what to do, and I still don’t know what to do, because in my coworker’s mind, I was just an able-bodied person using the disabled/family toilet… and I don’t want to explain the pain, the mess, and the need for a sink to my coworkers!

        1. Roland*

          To be fair, you asked “Was I wrong for using the disabled toilet?” So people with opinions on that will respond. I just don’t think it’s that helpful of a question I guess.

          It’s easy to say this as a stranger who wasn’t there, so this is not a criticism at all, but if something like that happens again I would really try to ignore it. You do not need to act based on overhearing someone muttering to themselves. And if someone wants to go through life mad that people without wheelchairs are using a single-stall restroom (in a building that has many of them) that will just have to be their problem.

    7. Calamity Janine*

      i admit that as a disabled person, though not one in a wheelchair, i’d give you a pass for this one. you’re still dealing with a health problem that makes that extra space genuinely useful, plus you really do need things like that sink in the stall. (in the case of IBS, it may be totally legit in terms of ‘whatever bathroom i can best quickly access’, especially!)

      however there are plenty of disabled people who totally disagree with me on this.

      for this specific client, i feel like just disclosing a teeny little bit so that you can show “hey i’m not a completely ablebodied person using this just to be a jerk” will go a long way. you don’t need to say it’s IBS. you can just say something like “i’m so sorry that you had to wait for the bathroom the other day, i was in the middle of a flare-up, it’s super embarrassing…” and honestly if you do that, odds are good all will be forgiven. if you really don’t want to disclose specifics, then that’s the perfect opportunity to be shy about it then move swiftly on. “oh gosh, i would hate to burden you with the gross specifics! anyway, i just wanted to reach out and apologise. now, about your case…”

      odds are good that the disabled client will come back with “oh my gosh, i know that feeling, i am absolutely not mad at you at all, aren’t our bodies so awful for letting us down” pure sympathy. that moment of Oh! They’re Not A Jerk – They Get It! is extremely valuable. and you are also likely to find that being disabled means that ableism says you are able to answer 20 questions about your medical conditions at the drop of a hat, which gets extremely tiresome extremely quickly. so if you are politely demure about it, they will very likely take the hint and be grateful that they can give you the kindness of not prying! so i know it’s scary how they grumbled at you – but that little bit of disclosure will, in all likelihood, make that attitude completely turn on a dime. and it will also build a significant bit of goodwill. it is very rare when society isn’t ableist in little death-by-a-thousand-cuts ways, so simply getting an apology for that is often quite refreshing and a true delight :)

      1. TMI sorry!*

        Thank you! I’m really not sure the client will even know who I am because we never interact aside from this one time, but if she knew me, I’d definitely explain. I wish I’d said something in the moment, but I was just so embarrassed, it was like my brain wasn’t working. All I could do was hold the door open for her and slink back to my office in shame.

        I wasn’t even upset with her for grumbling because, for all I knew, she may have been having trouble “holding it,” just as much as I would in that situation! I think I’m the most upset at my coworker for leaving her in the hallway instead of taking her to one of the other 13 disabled toilets in the building. She said she didn’t have time. And I guess I want to address the situation somehow, but I don’t know how to do that without disclosing what was really going on/my need for a sink :(

        1. Calamity Janine*

          it could be something to tuck into your hat if you see the client around next time. and i think the same strategy of being demure and nebulous about the health issue can work just fine with the coworker. maybe frame it not as an apology, but as a heads-up: “Fergusina, just so you know, when i’m in that bathroom i’m there dealing with specific health issues. that day was a pretty bad flare-up. please, instead of having someone wait for me, next time will you help them get to another accessible bathroom, even if that’s just pointing them in the right direction instead of walking them there?” describing it as a flare-up indicates it’s a chronic condition that waxes and wanes, not something you can simply try harder to fix. and that your need for it is completely legit. so that it’s on coworker to not just leave you out to dry, but to acknowledge this is part of your existence, and be able to work around this – and that’s why you bring it up, because it may reoccur. then you can say “oh the details are just so embarrassing – and i’m sure you don’t want to hear them! – but it’s a real thing, i just wanted to let you know.” and not have to disclose further.

          but also i have utmost sympathy for you and want to say that if you can disclose this to HR as a genuine need, i would totally suggest pushing for a bidet. or at least looking into one at home. honestly lifechanging and i don’t even have IBS lol

          1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

            I really like this approach. Put some of the burden back on the person who brought the client there and then expected the bathroom occupant on the other side of the door to abandon their activities to give way to someone else.

        2. SofiaDeo*

          You don’t have to say anything, except to the co worker who called you by name. IDK how friendly you are with that person, but I would go to them (alone) and say something along the lines of “excuse me, but why did you think it was necessary to know who exactly was in the bathroom? That’s really weird, please stop” because it is. Not all disabilities are visible, and you *don’t need* to justify to *anyone* why you are using that particular stall. You don’t need to justify anything to anyone why you are using that particular bathroom, we are all adults and any polite, reasonable person will be assuming you are in there out of necessity. I say this as a disabled person who doesn’t “look ill” (whatever that means/looks like) and get a lot of flak for using handicapped parking, shopping carts, etc. Haven’t yet had anyone give me grief over the handicapped bathroom stall, but if it ever occurred, I probably will be doing a chilly “and you need to know this why/and how is this your business” depending on where I was at. I did get stuck outside an airport handicapped stall with a broken leg once, in a wheelchair, waiting to use the lone large stall while it was obvious the person inside was using it to change clothes (suitcase near door bottom opening (this was in the US), seeing hands pulling clothes out/putting clothes back in, etc. and even then I simply knocked and said “please hurry, I really need to use the bathroom and this is the only handicapped stall” and then merely added “please don’t use these to change clothes, others really need them” when she came out. It’s awful enough to have GI or other health problems without others sticking their nose where it’s not wanted. No explanations, nothing, I disagree with others saying you should offer something to that coworker other than “please don’t do that again, to anyone”.

    8. matcha123*

      If you or anyone else needs a way to muffle sounds/lessen smellz, when things hit, or are hitting, flush the toilet. There may be multiple flushes. Flush. Don’t let it sit.

    9. I should really pick a name*

      Offhand, I feel like your coworker is in the wrong here. I think it needs to be a very high bar to talk to someone through the bathroom door, and since there are other accessible washrooms, I don’t think that bar was met.
      Even if they weren’t other options, let’s reimagine the situation where another wheelchair user was using the washroom. Would it have been reasonable to interrupt them?

      Based on what you’ve described, I think you were completely justified in using the accessible washroom.

    10. Anon for This One*

      You should not feel one ounce of guilt for using the appropriately designated restroom to manage a legitimate medical need.

      I have a friend who is in a similar boat—she is missing some of the anatomy required to use a standard bathroom stall and has to have access to a sink, but you would never know it to look at her when she is fully dressed. Someone once grumbled about waiting for her to finish in the family restroom when we were at the airport together, and she looked them dead in the eye, said “Not all disabilities are visible, and mine is not up for discussion,” and went on her way. I think that is the right attitude.

      As a backup, she also has sanitizing wipes and baby wipes in her purse, which have come in handy on more than one occasion.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      So I have no idea of your setting however, I spend a decade in human services. If one of us left a client in front of a bathroom that the client was not able to gain entry to, that would be considered abusive (neglect) because of the abandonment.

      I think your boss should instruct everyone to bring their client to a bathroom that is not in use.

      1) It’s rude to yell through a closed/locked door.
      2)It’s rude to identify the person using the bathroom (in addition to yelling the name).
      3)It’s rude to “make” a person hurry up. (Generally speaking, does not include bathroom readers/texters.)
      4)She left a client unattended.
      5)The unattended client could not use the bathroom located near them. She left them with a bathroom they were not able to use. This is neglect.

      The fact about your IBS is really not relevant because this could be anyone of us on a bad day. Anyone of us could have a bit of food poisoning or whatever and get stuck in a bathroom. Just because she figured out who was in the bathroom is also not relevant. If a bathroom is in use, then it’s in use. These details aren’t important. Move the client to the next available bathroom- that’s pretty basic and should be SOP. Why she failed to do that is beyond me. But she failed to take proper care of this person.

      2. TMI sorry!*

        Yeah… I already felt like it was inappropriate, but the more I think about it, the more egregious it is. The person who left her client in the hallway is the client’s therapist, so that’s… really not a good way to treat patients, right? (I work in the same office, but not as a therapist). All the bathrooms are also locked, and my coworker took the key with her, so the client couldn’t even get into another restroom.

    12. RagingADHD*

      I think it very much depends on what kind of work you do, because that governs the level of care/obligation both you and your coworker have toward the client, and the reason why the coworker didn’t have time to wait with the client.

      If your coworker didn’t have time because you work in an ER and an ambulance was coming in with someone dying, then of course it makes sense to leave the less-severe patient for a minute.

      If you are accountants, it was rude.

      Different types of scenarios would be somewhere in the middle.

    13. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      I don’t think it’s a good idea to use the disability stall. Especially if you’re going to be in it for longer periods. I avoid them unless there is no other choice, and try to be quick about it.

      1. SofiaDeo*

        But she has a disability. One disability does not “trump” another. If you don’t have one, that’s another issue, but there isn’t any “well this disability gets priority over another disability. OP has a medical condition, and needs the sink in that bathroom.

    14. Late Answer*

      I am late to this, but really want to say: You are disabled (in my view) and you are allowed use the disabled toilet! I am disabled and a partial wheelchair user. You have an invisible disability, and disabled toilets are not just for wheelchair users, they are for disabled people. It’s a pity that the image on the door is a picture of a wheelchair user, because it creates a false impression. It means “disabled”, not “wheelchair users only”.
      I have urinary problems and yeah, if I was out in a wheelchair and had to wait for the loo that would be difficult, but I don’t own the disabled loo!

  29. Non-customer service*

    Non-customer service
    Is there a good term for a customer-service-esque skill/approach when working with people from your own institution rather than actual customers?

    In my particular case, I’m in research administration/compliance, so the researchers at my institution have to go through my team to get their projects started. In many ways this mirrors the dynamic of customer service: they tend to see as an obstacle, want to be done with us ASAP, get disgruntled if we can’t give them what they want or if we ask for too much from them — but in the best-case scenario they will be happy with us if we’re responsive, helpful, and clear.

    So we have a focus on that, try to hire people with customer service experience, etc. But they’re not customers, we’re all part of the same institution, so it feels weird to call it “customer” service. (Feels overly deferential to me, but that might just be me.) Curious if there’s a better term for this I’m not thinking of!

      1. Just stoppin' by to chat*

        I came here to say the same thing. It’s still customer service, just for internal customers. I’ve worked with internal customers my entire career vs external customers.

    2. David's Skirt-Pants*

      When I train new employees, one of the first things I say is, “Customer service begins at home. We can’t take care of our clients and customers if we don’t start by taking care of each other.”

      Drop the “customer” if you want. Service is service irrespective of recipient.

    3. Middle of HR*

      In jobs I’ve interviewed for (or been interviewer for) it’s been called a client service mindset, and just clarify that we’re a resource for our colleagues, so they’re essentially our clients. (despite my handle I’m thinking back to non-HR jobs I’ve had, more similar to what you do)

    4. BellyButton*

      I often say “internal customers” because that is what they are. The skills needed to navigate them is close to the same, but also adding in “organizational knowledge”

    6. By Golly*

      How about just “service”? FWIW, I LOVE our research admin/compliance folks, because they are excellent at customer service, but I get why you wouldn’t want to call it that. One of our contract administrators gave a presentation recently and said something like “I love my job because I get to take care of the details so you can do the science.” Maybe something like “enjoys a support role”?

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      Client service is how I would phrase it. I too have internal clients rather than customers for my work. And you can be general in the questions you ask in interviews, too: “tell me about a time when you had to deal with someone who was disappointed with the work you provided or with an answer you gave them.” Doesn’t have to be a customer, could be a coworker or an internal client.

  30. PAC man?*

    My (~ 150 person) company has apparently founded a Political Action Committee (PAC) and is encouraging employees to donate. The PAC will support re-election of people who support policies favorable to the company, without regard to partisan politics. To encourage us to participate, the company will match PAC donations to a non-profit of our choice.

    Now, in the USA right now, we’re very polarized. In the powerpoint introducing this, they gave examples of members of the house committees relevant to our industry, which is fine, but one of them is someone I’m very strongly opposed to & would donate to their opposition. I also think this PAC is gross in general because it’s a way for the company to increase its lobbying budget outside the rules.

    In some ways I like the matching donation idea — I could “balance out” donations to people I don’t like with donations to nonprofits that oppose them. But so could people on the other side. It honestly seems like money laundering to charities of our choice. The whole thing seems like money laundering.

    Safest option is to politely decline to participate. We have a Q&A session soon. Any fun questions I should ask (other than “whose idea was this??”)

    1. Gatomon*

      Wow that sounds absolutely terrible! I would be disturbed if my company did this – the people who “support” the policies my company favors are almost all from a political party I don’t support, to put it mildly. Smells like they’re trying to get around campaign finance rules to me.

      I would refuse to participate and simply donate to the nonprofit of your choice. If they won’t leave you alone about it, chip in a token $1.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Who has access to the list of employees who donate? (and by extension knows who does not.) Will there be any work impact on those who do not donate?

      1. PAC man?*

        The PAC is run by senior management. There is a disclaimer that donations are “completely voluntary”. Not all employees are eligible, but the first I’d heard of the PAC was this email inviting me. They will give out hoodies to PAC contributors. The PAC has existed since before I joined the company.

        It feels really gross imo.

        1. Policy Wonk*

          Thanks for the info – those were suggested Qs for your Q&A session – that’s what I would ask.

    4. By Golly*

      So, the company will receive the tax benefit of donating to the non-profit rather than the employee, correct?
      What are tax benefits of donating to a PAC? (there are none.. this is just to point this out.)

      I agree, this is gross.

      1. Rose*

        Agreed. Instead of donating $10 to the PAC so your company will donate $10 to a charity of your choice…just donate $10 directly to the charity of your choice. You are “out” $10 either way, and your preferred charity is getting $10 either way… you are just avoiding giving money to the icky PAC.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Agreed. They found a way to shift money around and fund their PAC donation off the backs of the employees.

          I can’t think of a single question to ask here because it’s clear what is going on. I’d avoid the q and a meeting and avoid donating.

        2. Double A*

          Also, if you donate to the charity, you get the tax write off. If you donate to the PAC, your company gets the money into the PAC but also gets a write off for the charitable contribution.

          Yeah basically money laundering.

    5. whistle*

      Ew. Ew. Ew. I would nope on out of this, but I’d love to ask some questions!

      What policies does the company intend to support?
      Are there any factors that would make a candidate ineligible for support even if that candidate supports company-favored policies? For example, will the PAC contribute to candidates who deny election results? Will the PAC contribute to candidates who espouse antisemitic viewpoints? Will the PAC contribute to candidates with multiple DUI and contempt of court convictions plus DV arrests? (Sorry, that last one might just be my state house district candidate…)
      How will the company ensure that employees who do not donate are not penalized?
      Regarding the senior managers who will run the PAC, who do they believe won the 2020 presidential election?

    6. just another queer reader*

      PACs are disgusting.

      If this was happening at my company, I’d probably ask some pointed questions about how the company was selecting candidates that align with the company’s core values, such as diversity and inclusion, sustainability, and corporate citizenship.

      Surely the bigwigs would say some BS and nothing would change, but at least they’d hear the pushback.

      If I were you, I would decline to donate.

      I’m sorry your company is pulling this nonsense.

    7. Llama Llama*

      I find PACs in general really gross and fund a lot of the corruption in our country. Even more so, I think it’s gross that company is asking you to donate money to their PAC so that their company can make more money. They are asking you to fund their profits. You are not the investors.

    8. time for cocoa*

      I set up an Outlook rule to send PAC e-mails directly to the trash can. Speaking up will only put a target on my back, so I continue to donate privately to the opposite side.

    9. Sunlight Disinfects*

      Pass this information on to a local or regional media outlet that does investigative reporting, or a national media outlet with a reporter who focuses on tax fraud or nonprofits.

  31. WhyNotBoth*

    Last year, I moved from a position where I completely overloaded with two major, unconnected tasks to a position where I am focusing on Task A. Someone was promoted to take over Task B. Moving wasn’t my choice: The institution needed someone full-time for Task A, and not taking the “promotion” wasn’t really an option. Also doesn’t matter that I really liked Task B, and I was good at it.
    In my new position, I’m nominally only doing Task A. But, I get pulled into Task B ALL THE TIME. Mostly in the background because of my experience with it. My Task B work is off the record, so beyond my supervisor’s small leadership group, no one knows I’m not solely focused on Task A. I am not able to put the time and energy I need to into Task A, so to the rest of the company, it looks like I’m doing Task A badly! I’ve talked with my supervisor about this perception b/c Task A is one for which I need the trust of others, and I understandably don’t have it. She is not concerned b/c Task A is going ok, and she really needs me for Task B. Any thoughts on what my options here might be? I don’t want to leave, but I don’t see an internal way of handling this. Thank you for any advice!

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Do task B badly. Make it easier for them to figure it out without you than to ask you.

      Start verbally mentioning task B to the people who think they can’t trust you because you’re slow at task A while doing B.

    2. Bagpuss*

      Can you mke yourself a harder to access respurce? Delay responding toqueries about task B, suggest they check previous records rather than giving them the amswer, tell them you are too busy but can spare half an hour in a week’s time, say you’re not sure as you are no longer responsible for Task B so aren’t up to date on the relevant factors?
      Obviosuly not all of these may be suitable but if you are less helpful and less responsive they may be encouraged to try other otions.

      Or is there someone who is now in charge of Task B you could speak to, name the issue and sugges thtat you have single, more intensive training session – perhaos clear half a day to go over the issues in detail, then after that, refer any requests back to that peron, and refer them back to that training?

    3. Observer*

      Why can’t you make sure that every relevant person knows that you are spending all of this time on Task B?

  32. Hamster Wheel*

    Anyone have any experience with doing something like a formal ‘cease and desist’ towards a coworker running smear campaign against them? Direct management doesn’t want deal with this person’s behavior and I don’t trust our HR. (Also, this would be a last resort sort of thing but I want to try to see what options I have available to me)

    2. Annie Moose*

      By “cease and desist”, do you mean writing them a formal letter about it? I don’t think that would be likely to have any impact, if directly talking to the person has failed. If you mean just talking to the person to ask them to stop, though, then I definitely think you should go for it! It’s easy to get heated in that kind of situation, but if you can stay unemotional and just be like, “X isn’t true, stop telling people it is”, you’d probably get a better reaction.

      Or if it’s a case where Coworker feels they’ve been slighted by you, it can be very helpful to apologize, even if you don’t think you really were at fault–sometimes people really just want to be acknowledged/flattered a little, and are more willing to chill after that. A straightforward “I’m sorry that I got heated over X/I didn’t intend for Y to happen and I’ll be sure it doesn’t again/I didn’t realize Z would hurt you and I’m sorry for it” kind of thing.

      But I think this also comes down to what kind of a smear campaign we’re talking about. If it’s a situation where Coworker is always spouting off but everyone knows they’re full of it, then ignoring them and focusing on doing a good job/building positive relationships with other coworkers is probably your best bet. If everyone knows you’re trustworthy and a hard worker, they’ll know not

      If it’s had a clear impact on your job, however, such as causing coworkers to distrust you, then it might help to go to your manager again with specific examples, if you haven’t before–“I was falsely accused of taking money from the cash register because of what Coworker’s been saying about me” or “I’ve had four clients switch to another employee because Coworker claimed such-and-such”, those sorts of things. Even more effective if it’s things that have an impact on the business as a whole, not just you! Then ask how your manager would like you to handle it. Maybe they’ll be useless, but if you frame it this way, maybe they’ll take it more seriously.

      1. Annie Moose*

        I meant to add–if you really did mean a legal letter, then that’s going to need to come from a lawyer, and is only going to be meaningful if there’s actual legal issues in play here. If it’s just Coworker trash talking you behind your back, it’s unlikely that’s legally actionable.

    3. HR Friend*

      This won’t be effective and frankly it’ll come off as out of touch. A cease and desist is a for illegal behavior… a step before you sue someone. A “smear campaign” sounds like a dispute. If management isn’t already backing you up, escalating the dispute by sending a pointless letter won’t help your case with them. Talk to the employee directly and tell them to stop, and talk to HR if you want their help.

    4. GythaOgden*

      I’m assuming the smear campaign is totally unwarranted, but this is just going to make it worse rather than better.

    5. Unkempt Flatware*

      I’m sorry to say that such a letter will exacerbate the smear campaign. It will be seen as a very strange way to deal with a workplace dispute.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      Some questions: Would the smear campaign qualify as bullying behavior, and does your HR have a specific policy on bullying? Would your manager be more motivated to handle this (aka do their job) if you use the term “bullying” and point to HR policy so that it’s clearly not in the realm of interpersonal issue, which bad managers avoid managing.

    7. RagingADHD*

      You cannot threaten legal action against a coworker without it impacting your relationship with HR and management. They can’t have people working together with threats – legal or otherwise – being thrown around.

      Talk to a lawyer and first, see if you actually have a case for something like defamation or tortious interference (probably not). In the unlikely event that there were something actionable, they will guide you on how to proceed – which will involve going through management and HR.

  33. Blomma*

    I’d like to hear from people with fibromyalgia and whether you’ve chosen to disclose at work your specific diagnosis or to remain vague and say ‘chronic pain condition.’ I am conflicted. I’ve always said “I have arthritis and some other chronic pain issues” (which is true) because I didn’t want to invite fibro skeptics to offer their…thoughts…about my health or start receiving a bunch of unsolicited medical advice. However, for better or worse, fibro is part of my identity and I don’t necessarily like hiding it or being vague. Any thoughts or advice?

    1. BellyButton*

      I would even say “chronic pain condition” I would just say “chronic medical condition,” I think any bit of information seems to give people an open invitation to give advice or ask questions.

    2. StellaBella*

      I have a friend with FM and she cannot work at all. I am so glad to see that you are working, tho it may be difficult at times. To your question, I would say, “I have a chronic health condition” and be vague.

    3. Anon for This One*

      I have a medical condition that has really impacted my sense of self, so I hear you on the not hiding it thing. And there are parts of my life—with friends, family, and in advocacy work—where I openly discuss and work to destigmatize my condition. But I have a really strict firewall between those open parts of my life and work/the internet because I know that I am likely to face discrimination, conscious or unconscious, if I disclose. Someday, I hope we live in a world where people with health conditions are not seen as any less capable, but I don’t want to be penalized while I work to make that world a reality. So I stick to chronic medical condition.

  34. We got bought!*

    Two days ago, I — as a member of my company’s senior staff, but not leadership — was included in a meeting where leadership informed senior staff that another company had bought ours. This is still confidential, ie my boss knows, but I cannot tell anyone who reports to me. This morning, I got an invitation to a half-hour, zoom-based intro meeting with our new owner’s COO and vice president of what I’m guessing would be my department over there. I’m kind of freaking out. Any advice?

      1. ferrina*

        Yep, most likely a meet and greet. Take this time to make observations and get more information. You’ll be working for a new company, so think of this as assessing these leaders and deciding if you want to work under them or get a sense of how things may shift.

        Also, plan something nice for yourself this weekend. Things like this are really stressful, so have some dedicated time to unwind.

    2. it happens*

      No need to freak out, but preparing would be a good idea. You could pull together anything you have that describes what your part of the org does, your team structure, and performance metrics. You are unlikely to be asked to actually make a presentation at the meet and greet, but having all the info fresh in your mind and available if necessary can give you some comfort. Also think about how you would answer questions like “what areas for improvement do you see?” as well as any questions you would want to ask, like “how do you see these structures combining?” Or “what is the most important performance indicator for COO?”

      And take some time to breathe this weekend. Good luck!

    3. Girasol*

      Have a quick intro ready – who you are, what you do, what you bring to the table. The new leaders will probably be apprehensive about the sort of defensiveness, thorny questions, and sour attitudes that are common with mergers, so if you can, prepare to keep questions/comments in the territory of “I’m so excited about this wonderful opportunity!” whether you feel that way or not. You’ll get more chances to ask hard questions after you’ve made a good first impression.

  35. rage criers unite*

    I do not have a question – but I just want to shout it from the rooftops – TODAY IS MY LAST DAY!!!

    I’m so excited to be leaving after too many years of having a terrible manager.

    so so excited.

    3. GythaOgden*

      I hope to be following you soon, hopefully this side of Christmas or soon after. Best of luck :))).

  36. New chapter*

    Folks who have had a manager join your existing team, what advice would you have for the new manager? I’ll be starting a job at a new (to me) organization that involves leading a team of three. Any tips for a smooth transition would be greatly appreciated!

    1. searching for a new name*

      as someone who is kind of clashing with a manager who came in, I would say meeting with the direct reports separately and together would be great. Figure out what makes them tick, what their career goals are and their experience. Ask if there are any projects they want to work on or something they want to learn but haven’t been given opportunity to yet. After 1.5 years working with my new manager it is getting old hearing “at my old company XX” so try to keep that to a minimum if you can!

      1. ferrina*

        Yep. Start with a group meeting, then do 1:1s. Listen to what they like about their job and where they feel there can be improvements (though don’t promise anything until you get the lay of the land- you can be explicit that you’ll look into it but obviously can’t promise any changes until you learn more). Ask them about advice on processes or other folks in the company.

        Also, ask HR for their previous Annual Reviews. These can be helpful in showing areas where you should pay attention, but always take them with a grain of salt- I had a manager that was BFFs with a direct report and her Annual Review was glowing, even though it was well known that she was terrible at deadlines and required a lot of hand-holding.

    2. Prospect Gone Bad*

      Well, fill them in on some technical stuff. I am a very technical person but colleagues I know have trouble providing feedback when they don’t understand what their people do!

    3. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      Actually spend time getting to know your reports. My team had a new manager start earlier this year and nobody is happy with her because she spent exactly zero time getting to know us and is 100% business all of the time and even that’s disappointing because she’s still not up to speed on everything so she’s not exactly a great resource yet.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Yeah, this.

        OP — Basically I have issues with our change of manager after a switch from being employed by a public healthcare provider to being employed by a dedicated public sector facilities body. I call him my Stepford Boss, but he hasn’t made any attempts to listen and solve issues constructively with us or with his own higher ups. Individually they’re all lovely people but collectively, well, you know that adage about piss-ups and breweries, don’t you?

        Stepford Boss shouldn’t be the one out on the barricades with us, but my old boss was very hands on, fluid and flexible and would mediate between us and our grandbosses or at least explain the parts of the situation we couldn’t see and brainstorm practical solutions. He got my respect not because he was a pushover but because he gave us enough thought to listen to our concerns and pass them along even if they were ultimately not practical or actionable. He was one of those rare people who could be accommodating — he disclosed to me that he had issues with anxiety when I needed help with mine — but able to toe the party line when needed. I had a number of health issues and went through losing my husband under his rule, and he went above and beyond each time.

        I’m assuming my current boss is still too inexperienced to really understand his role and perhaps a bit in awe of others, but his PA has already quit after only a year and I’m not gonna hang around to get the teething problems (more like root canal) sorted. I’ve got a long weekend and am polishing my CV, let’s put it that way.

        People are OK when you have to say no. People understand that they generally have to defer to what you say and that you’re ultimately the one who can say no. The problem with my supervisor is that she’s too eager to join us in rebelling against some stuff that she doesn’t like or understand from our new management, but that support has turned sour because she’s actually too bullish on the very stuff I wanted to take advantage of now I’m working for a dedicated facilities organisation rather than being an offshoot of a clinical provider.

        So it’s a balance. You don’t want to be too much on the side of your team that you are blind to corporate realities, but you really can’t be a Stepford Boss.

        It’s like teachers. We had a strict French teacher and a softie German teacher. We were all a little afraid of the French teacher, but honestly…we all came out of those two years knowing more French than German. The French teacher wasn’t a bully, but sometimes people need to know where they stand. I wish you luck — I seriously can’t see myself as a manager at all and envy those who are good at this stuff. It sounds like you want to do the right things and you’ll be a good leader because of that.

    4. Irish Teacher*

      This is something you probably wouldn’t do anyway, but based on our last principal, don’t talk as if you immediately know more about the organisation than people who have worked there for years. (Like we were voting on whether students should have a base classroom which teachers went to when teaching that class or whether teachers should have their own rooms and students rotate and he started by saying “but before we vote, I just want to say that X could happen if teachers have their own room.” Teachers had had their own rooms before covid and we had almost all already decided to vote against that option precisely BECAUSE X had happened, routinely, but somebody who had only just arrived in the school feeling the need to tell us something “might” happen when we had BEEN there and KNEW if it did or not…seemed a bit off to me. This wasn’t the only example of him basically telling us about things we had been there for and he hadn’t.)

      And based on the same person, don’t assume negatives before they happen. I’m talking about things like saying “I don’t mind people continuing to take flexitime (in a company say, where it was the norm) but I will be looking out for signs of people abusing it.”

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Do not make any changes for a good period of time (depending on the job could be a week, a month, possibly longer). Give yourself time to actually understand the team, any issues, etc. And do not make snap judgements about your employees – get to know them and their capabilities. The person who seems the most together in your first week or two may just be the best at faking it.

      Good luck with the team

      1. A Genuine Scientician*

        When something is being done in a way that doesn’t immediately make sense to you, try when possible to ask why it is being done that way, and with a tone of wanting to understand rather than as a fig leaf before you state that it’s wrong.

        The way it’s done might not make sense, that’s definitely possible! But also it might be that way because what seems more sensible doesn’t work, for some reason that isn’t immediately obvious.

        Spending at least a little time learning what the team does, how the team does it, and why, before trying to change things will go over much better than coming in and immediately assuming you know how to make things better.

  37. Can't Sit Still*

    Archaic office equipment, processes, and procedures! I was thinking yesterday about how old office equipment allowed for a lot more passive-aggressive behavior with a hint (or more than a hint) of danger.

    For example, old school decollators (I see that they are much safer these days!) Annoyed? Grab your forms to be decollated, put them in the decollator, turn it up to 10, and press the on button. Paper volcano! Still mad? Take your decollated forms to the burster, and take joy in the simultaneous bursting and slicing as your forms are decollated and the dot matrix edges are trimmed away. Make sure you have tied long hair back, removed any jewelry, including rings, and are not wearing loose clothing. (Getting scalped and/or degloved were not as rare as you’d hope. Fortunately, sliced up fingers, lost nails, and a mauled cardigan were the worst I ever saw personally.)

    I also miss the clacking of the chain printer. There is nothing in modern office life like accidentally sending 500 pages to the chain printer and, even though you sprint to the printer to shut it down, it’s already on page 425. It’s a good thing green bar paper was cheap then! The chain printer as also a good way to get a few minutes of white noise, as you stare intently at it, apparently waiting for your print job.

    Printer mufflers for Okidata dot matrix printers. The ones we had worked great for a couple of pages, but they didn’t allow for printing in quantity, so you had to hold up the lid with binder clips, making the muffler portion rather useless.

    Lastly, someone hollering, “Forms in the printer!” to let everyone know not to use the printer. And yet somehow, when you were on the last few forms and the new shipment hadn’t arrived yet, someone inevitably hit print and printed all over your last forms. I remember during the UPS strike, our AP person ran out of checks because someone printed over her last box of checks and she had to do manual checks for a while, using the vintage check machine (I believe we had one of the first Paymaster models.)

    Anyway, share some memories, fond or not, of office machines or processes that aren’t used anymore.

    1. CharlieBrown*

      I really miss ditto machines.

      You could always tell how long ago the teacher made the copies by how strongly they smelled.

      I had a very young (early 20s) colleague at my last job who was confused by the paper sniffing scene in a move (Fast Times at Ridgemont High? I think) until I explained it to him.

      I’m so sad that I’ll never be able to smell that odor again, although given that it is a complex mix of solvents, I probably destroyed a dozen or so brain cells with every sniff. So be it.

      1. Buni*

        I was just talking to a friend about this in the week – that old-style mimeograph used at school that produced everything in a lovely purple / blue! We used to fight each other for the privilege of standing there for hours at a time cranking the handle.

    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      I learned to type on an electric typewriter, and you had to hit the keys hard to get the letters to show up. It was so satisfying, even though it permanently messed up the way that I type to the point that I can only use ergonomic keyboards nowadays. However, I definitely don’t miss the crappy digital display that would only display 3 lines of text at a time and made corrections impossible!

    3. Yet Another Unemployed Librarian*

      Ooh, libraries are full of this kind of stuff. I can’t think of any good examples but I’ve definitely participated in some back room clean outs where we all just stared at some old thing going “wtf is this even for?”??

    4. Buni*

      My first retail job as a teenager, 1993, we still had those cheque-impression machines that weighed about 20lbs. Every time someone produced a chequebook I had to heeeeave it out from under the counter, remember what order the 47 layers of different coloured carbon paper went in, put my whole bodyweight into kachunk-chunk-ing the slidey bit and then remember who got which copy.

      Okay, the kachunk-chunk was quite satisfying.

    5. GythaOgden*

      Sadly, our management have taken away our regular printer in a misguided effort to go paperless before we actually are paperless.

      I graduated in 2001, so I’ve always had computers and always been in an open office. I don’t miss the cabin-crew style suits women used to wear, nor do I miss crap squishy styrofoam cups, one of which scalded my hand when I squished it in the wrong place at the wrong time.

      I do miss older bosses who couldn’t (or couldn’t be bothered to) use computers, though. I was the person they took on as their amanuensis to navigate the witchcraft that was IT. That role has sadly shrunk :(.

      Royal Mail are also changing the way they generate bar-codes for signed for/special delivery franked post from Tuesday. I will definitely miss the little sticky labels that get swept beneath my keyboard and stuck on the wrong envelope. Those, I will miss.

    6. Hiring Mgr*

      When I worked a retail job in high school (Walgreens)in the 80s and someone wanted to use a credit card, we’d have to look through these books that got updated weekly that contained all the stolen/invalid etc card numbers. If the card wasn’t listed, they were good to go

    7. Girasol*

      When computers were the size of a refrigerator and had to live in a chilled environment, and computer operators had to live in the cold room with them.

      The days when the cartridges of laser printers had a tendency to explode and leave someone looking like Wile E Coyote after the TNT went off.

      And who could forget the sound of an acoustic modem syncing up? (You heard it as soon as you read that, didn’t you?)

    8. RagingADHD*

      Microfilm and microfiche.

      When I was a little kid, our library used to check out books by date-stamping the card and then passing them through a microfilm machine to keep the record. I thought that was so cool.

      Later, probably high school, we learned how to do research with microfilm and microfiche readers. And in college, we were word-processing and emailing papers we wrote about stuff we researched on microfilm (or books, of course).

      The personal computing era before the World Wide Web and mass digitization was a very interesting hodgepodge. And eclectic. I bet there are still plenty of archives out there that only exist on microfilm because nobody has bothered to digitize it, but most places don’t have those collections anymore.

    9. Eff Walsingham*

      And now I’m thinking, Was there ever a non-dangerous burster? (Or buster, as my supervisor called it.)

      My company (at the time) was the last in the region to be using the green-bar paper when we went paperless in 2021!!!!! Our paper supplier is going to be bereft… or maybe thrilled? But anyway it will surely make an impact on them.

      There would be one or two, maximum, staff in any department who would admit to being able to operate the burster. It was as noisy as an earthquake, and incredibly easy to snarl up beyond usefulness. And then we’d have to hand-separate 500 to 1000 pages per department per shift! And then many workers would be “unable” to tear the edges off neatly, resulting in documents that needed way more space to messily stack before the time came that we could dispose of them.

      Eventually I figured out that young people were mostly having difficulty in these regards because they had no experience in tearing perforated paper! For all the tired jokes about Millennials and cursive, how often are perforations encountered in everyday life, these days? These young guys were watching me as if I was a magician, as I tore the tracking strips off a dozen pages at a time, with no mess, over and over again.

  38. very anon for this*

    My company called everybody back to the office this week. They also laid a ton of people off. There are many problems with this besides the fact that a lot of the company can do their work remotely, but we are understaffed and required to work nights and weekends to get the job done and it’s just not possible to be in the office all the time and get the work done. My team was hybrid even before the panini so this was a real blow. I am interviewing like mad and hoping to get at least an offer or two by early next week. At least I have the support of my entire team, good references and I have skills highly sought after. I feel for the people laid off, and I am supporting/helping all of my team look for new jobs if that is what they also wish to do. I’d love to take someone with me when I go, I love my team that much. If anybody has advice or experience in any of this please feel free to leave it for me.

    1. ferrina*

      I’m so sorry! This sounds awful. I’m so glad you’re looking and hopefully will be out of there soon!

      Be gentle to yourself during this time. Take more time for the things you love and what will get you through. Phone it in at the office- I hate the term “quiet quitting”, but this is the situation that quiet quitting was made for. Spend your energy in getting out of there.
      Good luck to you!

  39. Lifelong student*

    A comment on the frequent observation or reply that an employee is “not familiar with professional norms/ enviornments.”

    It seems to me that there is often an excuse given that the employee’s family background was not in professional enviorments.
    It also seems to me that most of the comments are directed at people in positions which require some sort of training/schooling.
    Just because parents worked in a factory or farm, does not mean that they were in positions where actions did not have consequences or that manners and situational awareness were not needed.
    When people are in school, completing assignments and behaving appropriately are expected and rewarded- while failing to do so results in at a minimum lack of reward.
    I do not understand excusing an adult – even a young adult- from the results of their actions or omissions should become the norm.
    When employers, co-workers, instructors do so, they do the adults and society no favors.

    1. Prospect Gone Bad*

      True. And on the flip side, as I commented below, I have a mess of a delusional household. His family is all professionals and I actually think it made him more delusional and a worse worker. It’s like he thinks that because his parents are successful that it somehow rubs off on him and he just gets respect for nothing

    2. CheeryO*

      I don’t think it should be an excuse, but I do think a blue collar background can be a factor when it comes to office norms. I showed up to my first internship on time, dressed appropriately, listened and took notes, and tried hard when I was given enough guidance.

      The part that was hard were all the unwritten rules that are part of office life. I went straight to the big boss for work multiple times, even after he seemed annoyed the first time, because I was bored and wanted more work. I guessed at how to do various things instead of asking because I thought I was supposed to be able to figure it out on my own. I straight-up ignored a task I was given because I didn’t know where to start. I took home my stapler when the internship was over because I thought it was mine to keep!

      Some of that could be chalked up to inexperience, but I’m positive that people who grew up in white collar households learn some stuff by osmosis. The rest of us have to learn our lessons the painful way.

      1. Morgan Proctor*

        I don’t know about your last paragraph. I grew up upper-middle class with two loving white-collar parents who worked full time. There was NO “osmosis” about how to work in an office, and definitely not even sort of something as specific as “don’t go to big boss for work.” I don’t know how or why that conversation would have ever come up. The “mistakes” you made are not egregious and are just part of learning professional norms for nearly everyone.

    3. Warrior Princess Xena*

      I don’t know that it’s an excuse, per se, but I think some grace should be given to any young employee. People come from an amazing variety of diverse backgrounds, with an amazing variety of life experiences, and what is appropriate in one setting could be the kiss of death in another. For instance, communication. In a kitchen environment (a common 1st or 2nd job) part of effective communication is making sure you and your coworkers don’t get hurt. So yelling “behind you – hot” is not only acceptable, it’s encouraged, because no one wants to get a pan of boiling oil dumped near them because of bumping into them, and the person holding the sharp/hot/fragile things gets the right of way. In an office kitchen, if you are holding a cup of hot soup or similar and you try and act the same way with a coworker, you will not get the same reaction.

      That’s not to say that employees shouldn’t take responsibility – it’s more that if you are a manager and know that you have an employee who has not worked in your job type/industry before, communicate more with them and encourage them to ask questions to get over the knowledge gap. If they keep then missing the point after you’ve given them clear expectations that’s a different problem.

    4. matcha123*

      As someone from a low income background who knows many other people from low income backgrounds…we know how to be polite at an office. We may not be the ones to shout out ideas or challenge coworkers, but we show up and silently do as we are told and are probably the ones overdressed for the roles.
      The people who don’t have any fks to give are the ones who really don’t need the job.

      If we don’t know how to do something and no one teaches/ mentors us, we watch and copy what others do.

      I think that there are a lot of well-meaning, upper middle-class people who post here who give advice that’s not entirely based on the actual circumstances of the people they are speaking for. That’s not to say there are no low income people who show up to a job acting foolish, but we (low income people) know that those people should know better.
      I feel like the media and well-meaning people assume that low income people are just these rough beings like something out of a movie….as if we’d somehow be hired at a top law firm and show up in an Adidas track suit, speaking like we were straight out of the Bronx and swearing up a storm because we’re “keeping it real.”

      What I do wish people would be more lenient on would be assumptions about how people should speak up at certain times, how some places are filled with backstabbers, and how to speak with people in positions of authority.

      1. Educator*

        Honestly, in my experience and observation, people who are used to code switching between different environments are the ones who understand the codes best. When I need advice about office norms, I turn to a friend who has learned them through careful observation rather than someone who grew up in a more privileged context and does not really think about this stuff.

    5. I should really pick a name*

      It doesn’t mean you excuse them indefinitely.
      You inform them of the norm to make sure they’re aware of it, and the expectation is that they follow it from then on.

    6. Irish Teacher*

      I mostly agree. I do think that people who are new to an office environment may not be familiar with the norms there, but…I kind of have a problem with the assumption that it is due to their parents’ background. That assumes that young adults learn professional norms from their parents rather than either their education or from observing coworkers when they start a job and it also tends to assume that all professional and white collar jobs are similar and blue collar and minimum wage jobs totally different. Honestly, as a teacher, much of the “rules” of offices mentioned here sound WAY more similar to the norms I would have experienced working retail than the norms of a school.

      I really doubt I could give much more advice about say the norms of a law office or a medical practice to my hypothetical child than a mechanic or a retail worker or waiter could. There ARE some things that are true across the working world or most of it, but those apply to blue collar working environments too and the other norms are often specific to particular fields.

      My parents were both in “working class” jobs, my dad in a creamary and my mum worked retail, but I don’t think I was any less well-prepared for the professional environment than friends whose parents were professionals. We all had stuff to learn because we were new to those environments and I would definitely have taken the advice of my lecturers and so on over my parents anyway.

      I do think background can play a part in how prepared people are for workplace norms, but I don’t necessarily think it’s middle class versus working class. I have relatives who are/were very well-off but because of that, many of them never held typical jobs, instead making money as landlords, selling land, etc and as a result, never really developed things like timekeeping skills. Their kids missed school regularly, they were often late bringing their kids to school and collecting them, they would do things like going to a shop five minutes before it closed and being shocked it didn’t stay open late for them. I think their kids were likely unprepared for the professional environment, but more because of a dysfunctional upbringing (and I want to be clear that I am not saying their upbringing was normal for people in wealthy families; that family has a whole lot of issues with addiction and general dysfunction that their money covered up to a certain degree and that’s where the issue is) than because of their parents’ work or lack thereof.

      I do think kids from very dysfunctional backgrounds may have more difficulty adapting to workplace norms than other people.

    7. Anon for This*

      Personally, I have a harder time with new employees who grew up in privilege. They are used to being praised, expect to be rewarded for doing the minimum, think superiors are their peers, don’t want to do tasks they think are beneath them. It often seems their point of view is that work for them. They are the ones who truly don’t understand office norms.

    8. Esmeralda*

      I’d say it’s less that people learn the norms growing up, and more that they have a network that can help them learn it once they’re in an office.

      I’m solidly middle class. You better believe I behaved in all sorts of dumbass and unprofessional ways when I first started working. BUT I could call my dad or my uncle or my cousin about work situations and get some insight and advice — which went like this, Well, you were kind of an asshole, or OMG that was unprofessional; what you should have done/said was….and to fix the pickle you got yourself in, you should do…

      And the rest of the family has that resource as well, and we are very explicit about it. My niece called me about a situation, I made some suggestions, she whined to my brother about it, my brother said “You will call your Aunt Esmeralda back and apologize, and then you will do everything she tells you to do”.

      My dad grew up in a very poor, working class family. He has often said that starting out in his professional field, it was hard to know the right thing to do/not do, say/not say, and that he was very fortunate that an older co-worker took him under his wing.

    9. RagingADHD*

      I think that phrase is trying to be the sympathetic version of saying that someone was “raised in a barn” or “raised by wolves.”

      It’s not really about income or job type, it’s about people having social deficits or deficits in general knowledge about the world because their parents / caregivers were negligent or outright neglectful.

      Which is why it becomes offensive when it gets automatically associated with a low-income background. Poverty is a risk factor for neglect, but they aren’t synonyms.

      1. Irish Teacher*

        Yeah, I agree. The difference isn’t really between those who grew up with working class or blue-collar parents and those who grew up with middle class or white collar parents. It’s more likely to be between those who grew up with a supportive family structure and family members/friends who understood social and workplace norms and those who did not.

        I think the latter can be due to neglect or dysfunctionality in the family. It can be due to extreme privilege where family members are very high-ranking in the workplace and advise their kid to act in a way that is very entitled because what is acceptable from a CEO may not be from an entry-level employee. It can be due to cultural difference (honestly, from what I have read here and elsewhere, I think the advice I would give about working in a school would be unhelpful in many ways for somebody teaching in the UK or the US).

  40. ferrina*

    What books have helped you in your work and/or professional development?

    My workplace wants to start a library of books to help with professional development. What should we put in there? Taking all suggestions, even if they don’t 100% tie into work stuff!

    1. CharlieBrown*

      A lot of business books are kind of iffy to me, but I did like Time Management from the Inside Out by Julie Morgenstern. (At least as far as I’ve read, which is about half way.) Also, I’ve started in on Atomic Habits by James Clear, and so far, so good.

    2. Web Crawler*

      Do they know which people are checking out which books? That’d be a great place for informative books about neurodivergence, but not if it would out anybody. I’d recommend both Unmasking Autism and Laziness Does Not Exist by Devon Price.

      For me, understanding how my brain works has helped with my professional development more than anything else ever could.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Your local public or academic library may have recommendations on what circulates well, particularly if there’s a college with a business program. Can you ask your coworkers for their recommendations?

      I’d recommend Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People and Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking.

    6. Hotdog not dog*

      The Dog Whisperer books…and no, I’m not joking! The part where he talks about radiating a calm, assertive demeanor, speaking in a soft but firm voice, and recognizing that it is an animal first, dog second, breed third, and individual fourth has helped me more than most business books! (He’s an animal first, an executive second, First VP of BS third, and Harold fourth…and so I will not allow myself to be surprised or disappointed when he entirely disregards the data from the TPS report.)

    8. Lynne679*

      The Only Negotiating Guide You’ll Ever Need by Peter B. Stark and Jane Flaherty has helped me a lot!

    9. Also Anon*

      Machiavelli for Women. While the premise is a wee bit gimmicky, had a lot of pragmatic advice around navigating the patriarchy and sexism in the workplace.

    10. Cedrus Libani*

      For the psychology of creative work – The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. It’s explicitly about writing, but I’m a scientist, and it told me things I needed to hear.

      For communication – The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense at Work by Suzette Elgin. Worth noting that this one is a time capsule…the examples of differing communication styles are largely Japanese vs Western and male vs female, circa 50 years ago. It was dated when I first read it 20+ years ago, and may well be incomprehensible to Gen Z. That said, I still reference some of the concepts and vocabulary I learned there, so…

    11. Foley*

      The ONE Thing by Gary W. Keller and Jay Papasan and Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less by Greg McKeown – both are best for project based work where distraction on minor tasks takes away from the main/important goal.

      Also, Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time if you have a team based approach.

    14. Ginger Baker*

      I like several of the below and would add Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg (not to be confused with Atomic Habits – I did like that one but TH is *the* singular most practical book I have every read on habits and I recommend it ALL the time). I also really like Burnout by the Emily and Amelia Nagoski, but that is a bit more specific to women.

  41. CharlieBrown*

    Weirdest email you’ve ever received?

    I got an automated email at my last job that basically said “Your message to Randy Jackson on [date from ten months ago] was deleted unread.”

    1. ThatGirl*

      I got an email at my work address from some rando extolling the virtues of a random copywriter in Australia and I think wanting me to sign up for his newsletter so the first guy could get credit for it? I am a copywriter but it was totally unsolicited and we had no connection. I did get out of the first guy that he’d bought my name from some e-mail harvesting site. So, hope it was worth it dude!

    2. cubone*

      I managed a general info[at][companysite] email address and one time got a very detailed complaint intended for a chain fast food restaurant. Which is not even remotely similar to what our work was, nor were our names alike.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      I worked for a large nonprofit that showed PSAs featuring stock (posed) images of children in intensive care. We got an email from a nurse who was very upset because some tube that would be vital to survival if the footage was an actual sick child was slightly out of place.

      Yup, she thought that we were endangering the lives of small children solely for fundraising purposes. (If she actually thought that was the case, why not call the police??) Luckily, we were a local chapter and the ad was produced by our national media relations people, so we forwarded it to them for a response.

    4. Parallelogram*

      I get many emails from authors and publishers wanting me to buy their books for the library. About half are targeted and give me useful info, and the rest are outside of my purchasing area, but not unreasonable.

      Some months back though, I got a glorious one in which the author was clearly referring to his own self published book in third person. It included descriptions of a “visionary masterpiece” that would fundamentally change literature forever. “A thought-provoking marvel of our age!” I shared it with some coworkers, but did not make that particular purchase.

    5. Zephy*

      I’ve gotten multiple emails from another state’s Blue Cross Blue Shield health insurance, obviously intended for someone else but with no obvious way to notify BCBS of the problem – it’s an automated payment reminder. I’ve never been to this state, but it appears there is someone there who shares (most of) my name, based on the email address these notices are being sent to. Either it’s an elaborate scam (with what intended outcome?? the mind boggles), or someone put the wrong email domain in somewhere.

      I also got a five-paragraph nastygram from a client at OldJob once that I wanted to save for posterity because it was so unhinged, but alas I think it’s been lost to the ages now. It’s hard to llama-ize this and keep it coherent, so I won’t. I facilitated adoptions at an animal shelter – we explained to every adopter that it was possible, and indeed probable, that their new pet would show signs of illness shortly after leaving the shelter environment, so they should plan to make an appointment with their own veterinarian as soon as possible to get established. It’s not that we were purposefully, somehow, keeping the animals from “looking sick” until they got home, but this lady was absolutely convinced that we’d sold her a defective dog, because he started coughing and she had to take him to the vet right away. You know, like we told her he might and advised her to do. Luckily the adoption contract she signed had clauses in it like “animals get sick, our shelter is not a full-service veterinary clinic, please take your new fur friend to your own vet ASAP” so we were covered from a legal standpoint, but this lady was mad af because her vet was expensive, and that was somehow my personal fault.

    6. Anonymous Professor*

      I got an email from a student writing from a personal account and saying that they were sick and couldn’t attend class. However, my university’s policy is that we’re not allowed to reply to personal email addresses (because we don’t know who shares them with the student or even if they’re really the student) except to say that they should check their university email. In this case, I didn’t know which student it was because the personal address had nothing to do with their name.

      I was trying to figure out who this was when another email arrived from the same address, saying, “F**** YOU, TALK TO ME!” I was like, “What.” In the next ten minutes, two more emails arrived, one from the same address and filled with swearing, and one from the student’s university email that was only slightly politer demanding that I tell her what we were doing in class tomorrow because she was SICK.

      The student was not my student. I replied telling her this, and received no response. I still have no idea who she was trying to reach, but I hope she was politer when she managed it.

  42. Pity Party for One*

    TL;DR: Is there a way to try and recover from a bit of an argument with a coworker that was visible to others in the department while also addressing feeling more isolated when being asked to come into the office?

    Without giving too many details, I primarily WFH though usually go in once a month for particular meetings. It came up from our dept’s supervisor about us coming in 2 days prior to that meeting as well for “team building”. Normally I’d be ok with showing up in the office a few extra times a month, but I’m in the middle of a lot of outside-work stuff that literally means I can’t give up any extra time for commutes/getting up earlier than normal to get into the office, etc. (as in, to the point I’ve been neglecting chores because of other things going on). However, I don’t know these coworkers that well/not very personal with them, so I joked since I’d see them anyways on the normal meeting day, I’d rather not come in for the other day (they say team building but we honestly never do anything different than our usual work, which means I’d just be showing up to sit at a desk).

    This was happening in a text channel for our dept that included our manager and supervisor, so tone was lost and some took it the wrong way that I was rubbing it in their faces about WFH and just refusing to come in at all (some have jobs that have to be done in office) and devolved into one coworker trying to tell me I should go find another job then which I flatly noted I was not looking for another job (I came on 7 months ago here and love the job an this is the first time there’s been disagreements). That coworker then clarified they weren’t trying to argue, just disagreed with my statement and I then lost it and blew up in that coworker’s face, finally revealing the real reason was due to a very bad schedule where I was essentially neglecting myself just to stay afloat so asking me to come into the office for impromptu things for the next 2 months would mean forgoing sleep at this point to make it work (I’ve literally not had any free time to myself for 2+ weeks and had to turn down bday parties, halloween events, etc. so it’s not like I’m running off and partying when I could give that up instead). As you can imagine, it got silent there and I privately apologized to the supervisor about it/my outburst. They understood where I was coming from as I had been keeping them informed about my schedule outside work, but did point out how my original message came across/a few other pointers, so I then went back and publicly apologized in the group chat and clarified while I would like to spend time with them, I really just can’t right now with my schedule.

    My issue now is, I’m not sure how to recover from that. I’m only 7 months into the job and, other than this one incident, everything has been great here. But also underlying issue is, I’m not sure how to bring it up to my supervisor during our one on one about what they are expecting to get out of these “team building” in office sessions. As literally, nobody has ever hung out and done anything not related to work, so I’m not seeing the point in me just showing up to be at a desk and feel more isolated when I do the same stuff just WFH. I’ve never been so much as invited to a lunch though I know several will split off to go do so with friends in other depts, and even a new hire went out to lunch with one of the higher ups within the first 2 weeks of the job (meanwhile when I was in office for my training, not once got invited out). But I’m not sure how to bring that up without coming across as “nobody likes me/never get invited out” and especially now if I do directly note it, it’ll feel like any invitations after that are just out of obligation/pity which I absolutely do not want.

    1. Qwerty*

      I mean this kindly – You are putting way too much pressure and emotional burden on your coworkers. I’m going to try to separate this as two issues, despite them being related

      **The Snap**
      When you have decent headspace, take a step back and view this from your team’s perspective:
      – Team told to come into office
      – Pity Party says (translation) “Nope! I don’t want to see you any more than I have to” (that’s the tone-less text message will have come across when you say you’d “rather not” see them, especially since your last paragraph indicates y’all barely know each other)
      – People required to be in the office get a reminder that the pre-pandemic basic task of coming to work is seen as imposition to their peer
      – Sniping ensues
      – You blow up and dump your personal life on the unsuspecting team

      I’m sure you know by now that your original rejection was in poor taste. The little info I have does point to it being more like refusing to come in for the team building days. In the future, the best way to handle it is to privately message your boss and say due to external factors you aren’t able to commute for the team-building days this month – can you just come in for the meeting and make up the bonding days next month? In this case, she knows your situation but if she hadn’t then you’d want to add some *professionally filtered* info. Then the two of you figure out messaging to the team.

      But mistakes happen and the message got sent to the group. This could have been easily recovered if you’d made a swift U-turn at the first hint of someone being disgruntled. “Sorry! I meant that my schedule doesn’t allow it this time but I look forward to seeing all of you at BigMeeting!” Be effusive and friendly.

      Overall, I’m really not a fan when people blame an argument on someone “taking it the wrong way”. I know that you are angry and stressed right now, but it just blames the other person rather than owning up to your own words. Usually in those situations the “wrong way” is the more obvious way to interpret something.

      **The Overall Loneliness**

      You say no one as ever hung out with your or invited you. How many invitations have you extended that were clear and direct? Can you consider the possibility that maybe you missed some soft invites early on that were taken by the other party as rejection. Sometimes people say stuff like “a bunch of us are going to lunch down the block” and assume you’ll speak if you want to join because they think of it as an open-ish thing and don’t realize new people won’t pick up on that. (obliviousness on both sides!)

      When you take a mostly remote job, it really is on you to make the extra effort to forge connections. Those in office people will pick them up naturally from things like running into each other at the water cooler, have a few minutes of downtime waiting for a meeting to start, warning each other about ice in the parking lot, etc. It isn’t their job to treat you like a guest when you are in the office. You chose to not be there, they moved on with their lives. You also really need to look at your demeanor when you are in the office – are you friendly and approachable? Be brutally honest with yourself here. Most of the time when I’m helping a remote coworker with this, what they say is “trying really hard” involves them being standoff-ish and not talking to anyone, so we humans are not good at judging ourselves.

      I’m the office social person who tries to make everyone feel included. Let me tell you that it is incredibly exhausting! Look at how much gets read into everything – you’ve said that if people start inviting you, you’ll view it as a pity invite. They are d**ned if they do, and d**ned if they don’t. You are expecting people to be mindreaders. Being remote gives you a huge opening too – you can just say “hey I feel like I haven’t gotten a chance to get to know the team, want to grab coffee next Monday when I’m in the office?”.

      ** The Intersection **

      Normally I would have advised you to talk to your boss about the lonliness so your boss could organize a team thing next time you are in the office or so you could pick a day to show up on site when most people are there and start developing relationships. The big problem here is that your boss tried to do an “everyone in the office so we talk to each other” day and you had your big blowup as a result.

      You do have some disdain showing through for working in the same location as your coworkers. Little relationship building items get their start between TPS reports more than a high ropes course outing. Getting everyone in the same site means the meetings and conversations are face-to-face where you pick up on body language (something like 80% of communication is non-verbal) and have the option to invite people for lunch, or coffee, or even just walking a lap around the building.

      That in office time also shows your personality more. As a result, people will learn better what tone you *intended* and will hear your text messages in your voice/style. They’ll be more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt.

      Because of the big blow up, it might be better to wait a bit before starting to befriend people. You’ve got a ton of stress you need to deal with first anyway, and your team needs some distance to forget about it a bit. Think about part of your job as having decent working relationships with your colleagues. I’m assuming when you took this job, a few in office days were expected, so drop the mindset that a commute is being inflicted on you and think of it as a trade-off. For 18/20 days a month, you get to skip a commute, wear sweatpants, and do whatever you want. For 2 days you put on outdoor clothes and drive to work like the rest of us *so that you can work effectively the other 18days*

      1. Pity Party for One*

        Thanks, it’s a lot to swallow at once though I do get what you’re saying. Although I forgot to point out a few slight things:
        – our whole company is pretty open about issues. Like a lot of them just blast out to everyone in a channel if they’re out of the office and specifics of why (think like them saying out for lasik eye surgery, or child is throwing up, etc.). That’s cool if they want to do that, but I’d rather not talk about my personal things (but obviously that blew up in my face)
        – I didn’t want to make the post even longer than needed, but after that coworker said it was a “first world problem to not want to come into the office” right after my first reply about not wanting to come in that day (yes, they used that exact phrase) I did try to backtrack and say I had a crazy schedule so would need a heads up for days they wanted us to come in more regularly (without going into specifics of not taking care of myself) but it just devolved from there into me finally just blowing up in their faces after they remarked about me finding another job. Does that still excuse my behavior? No, but I just got so fed up and the stress of everything hit right then and I felt on the defensive as they kept pushing about it even after I tried to backtrack and explain my schedule.

        And yes, my supervisor was kind enough to also point out how tone-deaf my original statement was (I’ll admit, I resort to joking around a lot as I try to hide the more personal/stressful parts from everyone so what I thought was just light banter didn’t realize was coming off as basically going “hell no, I don’t want anything to do with you guys”). We do joke around a lot so it’s not like it was an out of the blue remark, but I’ve definitely learned from my mistake here to just privately message my supervisor next time about scheduling stuff like that and just leave the jokes for another time that’s not directly work related.

        For the loneliness part, yeah there was never so much as a mention of anyone even going out to lunch. When I was training, only 2-3 were in during that time in our dept, and our schedule is flexible so someone could just get up unannounced and head off to lunch for an hour, so there wasn’t even an announcement of them heading off. Even now it’s the same way: they get up without warning and then you don’t see them again for about an hour. It is rather bizarre as I’m used to people at least saying when they’re headed off for longer than a break.

        I’m a rather quiet person naturally, which I know some mistaken as being stand-offish (which probably is what they were also seeing when I made my initial remark) though I do try to talk to others in the office when I’m in. They’ve made it harder though as our team has been split across two areas, so sometimes it may just be me and one coworker, or just me by myself if 2 others left for lunch, etc. unless I want to shout across the hallway to the others that are in (and we can’t move desks/no room to do so nor do we do hotdesking so no way to join them when others are out). I’ve also made direct remarks in our work channels that I don’t get invited to lunches either (long story, there was a lot of joking going around about a CEO who asked about lunch with others in the office and they forgot about them/headed off so we all piled on). I’ve also mentioned this several more times directly in our dept’s channels with more banter (though that happened more recently/haven’t been back in the office since those remarks). I do like the suggestion of just noting I feel like I don’t know anyone/invite out to get a quick bite to hang out for a bit (of course, at a much later time after this has all passed).

        And yes, normally I wouldn’t mind the commute so much/would gladly go in a few times a month (not counting this one blip, I love everything else about this job) but just right now is definitely not the best time for that until my schedule clears up and I’m not so stressed out.

        And thanks again, it really is appreciated and helps give more insight into it different perspectives that I wasn’t seeing originally :)

        1. Cordelia*

          Your coworkers may be confused as to what you want from them – you complain about being expected to come into the office for team building, but then complain that you are not being treated as part of the team… and really, talking about your busy out-of-work schedule isn’t going to make them feel particularly sympathetic either- other people have things to do outside work too, and still have to find the time to commute. Every day, not only for one extra day a month!

          1. Pity Party for One*

            Oh, the remark about coming into the office was very recent, all the other notes/comments where I directly noted about lunches was done weeks prior to that so there was never any indication I didn’t want to come into the office that I know of .

            The job was also portrayed as a “you can WFH or come into the office as much or as little as you like outside of the necessary monthly meetings” so it’s not like I came on being told I’d have to be in the office half the week or eventually in the office full time but thought I could just stay WFH all the time. So with that in mind, I schedule outside work stuff appropriately (trust me, it’s not fun stuff either, but something that should wrap up in 2 months. I would gladly commute over having to deal with this outside work stuff) which is why I asked if they were going to change that, to give a heads up so I can plan accordingly for that lost time.

            As for others having outside stuff too, I get that and that’s why I didn’t actually want to divulge it was really due to my schedule, but as they kept pushing/making callous remarks about job hunting when I clearly had no intentions of doing that and didn’t want one of the other dept heads in the chat to think I was looking, I finally snapped at that coworker for it (which I am upset at myself for losing control like that). But I also know there’s a trade-off here that those in-office get that I don’t, like more networking opportunities and higher salaries. Also I think there’s some confusion here so to be clear, while we’re all in the same dept, we’re divided into different functions (think like outside IT Support and then having those who have to physically setup servers, so while related, our jobs aren’t relying on the others in the same dept) so it’s not a dependent condition that went “server people must work in the office if IT people are WFH”. Likewise, if I moved into another position in the company, I would expect they’d want me in the office full time for that (but also have a salary that reflects the higher position).

    2. WellRed*

      You don’t say it that way. Frame it as, “I’d love to have lunch together next time I’m in the office!” Or whatever makes the most sense. But I’d probably hold off a bit after that rapidly devolving outburst about having no time for team building. I’d also consider whether you need a meaningful convo with your boss about your workload.

      1. Pity Party for One*

        Thanks and yea, definitely noted proper ways to handle that going forward. My workload itself is actually fine, it’s just sadly outside of work stuff that’s eating into my free time (though there is an end in sight as that should wrap up in 2 months which I’ve also noted when I apologized to everyone I’d gladly join in then)

        1. ThatGirl*

          It’s completely up to you how much of your personal life you want to share, but sometimes letting people in a tiny bit can help with bonding and also put things into perspective for others.

  43. Prospect Gone Bad*

    I have to share this. So my egotistical coworker has updated his linkedin to the point that what he wrote is ridiculous fan fiction, and now people are gossiping about it. I have to admit, I find it a delicious piece of gossip. I wonder what the psychology is behind it. Why lie and exaggerate your role so much, in public, for everyone to see, knowing everyone will get a notification of your new profile? He basically does mid-level individual contributor stuff that does require skill, but his skill level was never high enough to fill the role. So his title could be Engineer II but on a day to day basis he acts like Engineering Assistant. He negotiated a higher sounding title when he began, but is now pretending he does the traditional role associated with that title. So not only is he not doing the Engineering II stuff, his title is like Engineering Director. So his linkedin not only lies about his technical skills, it insinuates he manager people and in one part insinuates he manages managers, but he doesn’t even manage one person!

    If he is job hunting he is shooting himself in the foot. Any recruiter will quickly realize how his public person is built on lies and smoke/mirrors.

    People are gossiping again that he is dropping the ball on basic requests. We’ve surmised while WFH his delusion has gotten so bad that he now truly believes he is a leader in our company and is being sent these requests by mistake. I even heard he delegated one to a VP!

    I’ve thought about my chance of getting doxed online by writing this, and you know what? I don’t care. Let him explain himself. Let my company, which I otherwise like, explain why they let his BS go on for years. I’m done with his crap. Yet again I am waiting for him to do one simple thing and he is simultaneously acting like it’s a huge complicated project, but also too simple and low level for him.

    2. ferrina*

      Wow. This is fascinating! I would also very much enjoy the gossip. Grab some popcorn and watch him implode. Just hopefully he doesn’t implode on the thing you need him to do.

      1. Prospect gone bad*

        The psychology of his delusion interest me. Like, I don’t wake up every day thinking, what can I lie about to pretend to be better than everyone!

        But him imploding is going to take decades apparently. For whatever reason his boss babies him. His boss loves the image of an Egotistical go-getter guy, the type of guy that would be in the movie Wall Street. But he has a blind spot and doesn’t see that this dude isn’t that at all. If you’re going to have to ego, you need to have accomplishments and skills to back it up!

        1. irene adler*

          The first thing I think of when updating my LI profile is, if I exaggerate, I’ll get called out at some point. So why risk the humiliation and embarrassment?
          Reckon that’s something that never crosses the mind of folks like your coworker.

      1. Prospect gone bad*

        Doesn’t that go for most issues here? Not sure why you need to point out “work with a jerk” is not my issue? I guess I should ignore my coworkers?

        1. Hiring Mgr*

          No but I think you could ignore their LinkedIn profiles… It sounded from the OP like that was bothering you, so I meant the circus/monkeys thing in a good way, as you don’t need to worry about someone’s LI account.

    4. tessa*

      It seems you’re way over-invested in your co-worker’s LI profile.

      I can’t imagine spending so much time and energy on something that insignificant to anyone other than the owner of that profile – to the extent that I wonder about the authenticity of the post.

  44. I edit everything*

    I posted last week about interviewing for a part-time job. They told me I wouldn’t hear until today, but they called on Wednesday and made the offer! I accepted.

    It will require some adjustments for my family, but I think we’ll be able to make it work. It’s part-time, working in our town’s park office. The routine stuff will be doing reservations for pavilions and picnic shelters, but I’ll also get to work on updating the office’s tech (researching online reservation systems) and looking for ways for the park to increase revenue. So it’s a nice mix of easy and more challenging. 9:00-3:00, 5 days a week, which will still leave me enough time for my freelance editing.

    The editing has slowed down a lot recently, which is why I applied in the first place.

    Anyhoo, thanks for all the good thoughts last week! I’m looking forward to this more than I expected to.

  45. RespondToMyEmails*

    How do you all deal with managers not responding to emails when you need their approval on projects or marketing materials? I started my new job 2 months ago, and I’ve just encountered this problem. I sent my manager the materials earlier this week, followed up with them yesterday, and I still haven’t received a response. I’ve asked my supervisor to see if they can follow up with the department manager, but I haven’t received a response yet.

    This is a project I manage and if it doesn’t get completed it falls on me… and I’d rather not have a project fail because my supervisor’s supervisor is not responding to my emails.

    1. 867-5309*

      I am sometimes that manager and I can tell you… We don’t feel good about it. However, in my case, I manage a team of people plus have my own work that needs to get done and it is nearly impossible to get to everything. My team does this,

      We use our 1:1 times as working sessions and where they can, they wait until that meeting to get my sign off and review on things. This way, when they do send an email that needs my approval, I know it’s more urgent.

      The second this is building in a window of time, again where possible, that recognizes this is going to happen. With me, my boss and others in our function, we give a minimum of one week to review items and ideally we try for two weeks.

      1. 867-5309*

        I will add more suggestion… it is overwhelming to receive a bunch of one-off emails for approvals on marketing materials. My team does a nice job of batching them into a well organized so I can tackle everything at once versus trying to sift through a dozen or dozens of emails.

        It might worth finding out if others on the team have a similar issue and how you can work together to help your manage deliver what you need.

        I have a team of 5 marketers, and since our discipline covers a couple major areas for the business, the other marketing teams also have requests for us, so I am grateful that my team works together when sending me things. It’s made it much less stressful for all of us.

        1. RespondToMyEmails**

          It’s funny you mention that because I actually did submit several requests in one email and I thought that it was overwhelming at first! I can talk with some of my coworkers to see if there’s a more streamlined way of getting marketing approval.

      2. RespondToMyEmails**

        I’m glad to get a manager’s take on this! At my previous job, my boss needed a 24-48 hr window of time for approving items, but it didn’t occur to me that some people need a 1-2 week window of time.

        I have communicated with both my supervisor and my supervisor’s supervisor that I need these materials approved by X date to complete the project on time, but that hasn’t seemed to inspire any movement… is there any other language you recommend I try when following up with managers?

    2. OyHiOh*

      We’re all in person in our office and I (and the other folks at my level) literally stalk the people we report to. Start with email, then teams/text, then go physically stand in an obvious spot and pounce the moment they’re free. This morning I parked out in the lobby for 15 minutes to grab my boss as they walked in from an off site meeting. Crammed schedule and item was not going to get done otherwise.

      If you’re remote, which it sounds like, I have no words, only sympathy. The lack of response is so frustrating to deal with.

      1. RespondToMyEmails**

        Yes, I am working remotely! It’s one major downside of the WFH life – getting answers from people in the office is so much easier when I can ask people directly.

    3. Glazed Donut*

      I have encountered this in the past–usually when submitting something FAR in advance and then running right up against a deadline, sometimes a little over.
      What has worked for me is framing it in a polite way (ie “Let me know what else you may need from me”) but also spelling out the dangers of not getting approval: We will lose a contract and need to start over with planning, we will be out of compliance with XX, we will have to expand the budget to cover Y, etc.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Ask the manager what is most effective for her. (Given that this appears to be a skip level, your supervisor may need to help.) I would prefer a series of quick, short one decision e-mails to a long slog through several decisions, but as has been noted, some prefer it the other way.

      Make the decision process as easy as possible for the boss. Do you need a yes/no? Or do you need input/edits? Make that clear. Do not provide tons of detail, but offer to provide more if necessary. (I have only had one boss in my career who wanted more and more details in the original ask.)

      The more demands on one’s time, the less patience for clutter. Make sure your request is very clear about what you are asking. Might not make a difference if the manager isn’t on top of their inbox, but there are some employees whose requests will be dealt with first because I know they will be well prepared and I won’t need to make extensive corrections, etc.

    5. Ginger Baker*

      Have you called the manager? That is my next escalation (after pinging the admin, but not everyone has one). I sent maybe two emails (with the question IN the subject line, like “Is the Turtle Campaign ok to send out?”) and then call (IM may also be in the mix depending). If an urgent deadline is on us, and I am not able to physically stalk someone, I have been known to tag in help from others who have eyes on the person I need. (I usually don’t need to escalate to that level, but needs must.)

  46. MissGirl*

    Yesterday I found an application question super inappropriate. I’m curious what others think or if you’ve seen anything like it.

    This is the first time I’ve job hunted in a few years. I’ve been occasionally asked if I identify as a LGBTQ+ member. I find this a bit intrusive although I’m assuming it’s for diversity purposes. I’ve been answering “I prefer not to say” and moved on. (FYI, I’m straight so it’s not a question of not wanting to out myself; more a question of privacy.)

    However, yesterday’s application made me deeply uncomfortable, and I won’t be moving forward there. They asked me if identify as pansexual, asexual, aromatic, bisexual, questioning, etc. WTF. Why would a company ever think it’s okay to ask a candidate if they’re questioning their sexuality or if they like to have sex with everyone?

    This is an online therapy company so I could understand when interviewing therapists digging into their LGBTQ+ viewpoints to ensure the company provides a safe space. But there is NO reason to ask about a data analyst’s sex life via an application. I’m just stunned.

    1. CharlieBrown*

      I know it’s a typo, but I laughed at loud at the thought of any identifying as “aromatic”.

      But yes, this is beyond bizarre, and the application is not necessarily the best place for it.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Personally (as a queer cis woman), I feel that isn’t asking about your sex life, it’s asking about your identity. Pansexual for instance means you’re attracted to multiple genders and gender expressions, but it doesn’t mean you’re out there banging anyone with a pulse…

        1. ThatGirl*

          I also don’t find it offensive, for the record, though folks should be able to opt out if they don’t wish to answer.

    3. Anonnyme*

      Not saying this makes it an appropriate question, but “pansexual” does not mean “likes to have sex with everyone”. It means “can be attracted to anyone of any gender/regardless of gender” — including nonbinary individuals.

    4. LaDiDa*

      It is no different than asking race. In the before times it was White, Black, Other. No one wants to be “other”. By making all identities “normal” it makes a stab at bias and discrimination.

    5. Calamity Janine*

      ehhhh this is kind of a queerphobic thing of equating identity directly to sex acts. these aren’t names for specifically and graphically decoding what someone is doing during sex. these are part of their identities.

      look at it this way: by default, society treats everyone as if the answer to this question is ‘you’re heterosexual and heteroromantic’. that assumption is just as intrusive. if not even more so. after all, it’s an assumption – you are given no agency to inform them of reality. to correct them is an additional out-of-the-way step, and one that often comes with significant pushback where systems aren’t designed to support this and bigotry tries to keep it that way.

      this does not mean everyone is explicitly telling everyone else what they like during sex. this is a part of our identities that is assumed, but is not actually stigmatized to share. if your colleague is male and talks about getting home promptly because his wife is making is favourite dinner, do you leap to immediately going “omg you’re heterosexual!? how DARE you tell me all about your sex life! gross! i didn’t want to hear those explicit acts!”? i’m guessing no, right? but the heterosexuality is just as explicit and just as about sexytimes as someone being bisexual, pansexual, asexual, et cetera.

      it’s just that we already treat heterosexuality as normal and apply it to everyone. it’s only the queer identities that stray from this that make people go “omg this is dirty filth”. the problem isn’t the level of identifier. the problem is that queerphobia has equated people’s identities directly with gross and lewd sex acts, because queerphobia, well, hates queer people and thinks that them existing is socially unacceptable.

      gently, as one cishet to another, this is a moment when you need to step back and realize this is something we only characterize non-heterosexual people like and then punish them for being ‘inappropriate’. it’s not actually about sex acts. you don’t have to disclose what you don’t want to – but you need to realize this ISN’T about their sex life. at all. and you need to NOT keep up the fiction that it is only about their sex lives, so it is gross and inappropriate (but that society is totally fine assuming everyone’s sex life is heterosexual, and it only becomes worth an objection once someone who isn’t cishet shows up!). it is a lie to keep around the harmful idea that queer folks are bad, wrong, and not fit for society. that is not an idea that deserves space in your head.

      1. MissGirl*

        I don’t think any of the identities are wrong and I deeply apologize if it came out like that. Honestly, I think it was the “questioning” one that threw me for a loop the most. That feels like such a deeply personal process that I can’t imagine wanting to converse about that with my employer. Like I said, I totally would support the organization identifying itself as a safe place, but this made me feel the opposite of safe. I would worry about other boundary violations. Like, is this a company that makes you do group therapy? Do they respect privacy? Are they one of those companies who “want you to bring your entire self to work,” meaning you have to share everything?

        But I’m more than willing to be wrong about this.

        1. Calamity Janine*

          “questioning” in and of itself can be a useful catch-all term. if someone is simply in the process of figuring that out, but is still very much queer, they also deserve to be honest about that and to admit it – and to get support for it. sometimes people’s identities can be in flux. it is not inappropriate to let them acknowledge that.

          it’s also (one of the) Qs in LGBTQ+, and certainly in the +, so if you’re squeamish about it when it’s in the acronym but not when it’s written out…

          well, that’s going to be a you problem as to why you feel personally unsafe when people are honest about being not heterosexual around you.

          1. MissGirl*

            I meant I would feel unsafe if I felt I was in a situation where I was being forced to be outed if that makes sense. Not that I’m unsafe knowing other people’s identities.

            I’m a deeply private person about most things so my knee jerk reaction was fear this employer would lack boundaries in this and other places. And would press me to share more about myself than I would be comfortable doing, especially where this is a mental health organization.

            1. Web Crawler*

              If you don’t want to be outed, you just put “straight”. It would’ve been nice to have a “prefer not to say” option, but this isn’t the same as being forcibly outed. I marked myself as “heterosexual” on forms for a very long time, and I’ve also been outed without my consent. Those things are very very different.

              1. Web Crawler*

                To add, because I realize that I didn’t explain. In this case, you give your consent to whatever the company wants to do with your identity label when you fill it out accurately. It’s not a great model, especially when you don’t know where that information is going and how it will be used. And it would’ve been better with a “prefer not to say” option.

                But this is different than being forced to come out, where you don’t give your consent and the outing happens anyway. In this situation, the equivalent of forced outing would be if they autofilled your gender and sexuality from your Facebook page, or some other method of discerning your sexuality where you didn’t get a choice in what you listed.

        2. Web Crawler*

          As a queer person, a company that calls out “questioning” specifically would make me feel safer. Why? Because questioning people are unquestionably part of the community. And by specifying that “questioning” people count as queer, it means that they’re not gonna pull some queer gatekeeping nonsense on me, as a man in a relationship with a woman.

          It’s just a queer norm- questioning people nearly always count as part of the LGBTQ+ community, unless there’s a clear reason why they shouldn’t. It’s not the company saying that they’re gonna ask about the details of figuring out your gender/sexuality. It’s them saying “yeah, we understand that questioning people count too”. And I appreciate that, as a person who’s not questioning but also not “visibly queer”.

    6. ferrina*

      I agree, it feels off on a application. Asking if you identify as LGBTQ+ makes sense, because it helps companies track if they are attracting a wide array of candidates (a DEIJ metric). But getting into specifics is not helpful at this stage- no one tracks the data at that level (and I’m really not sure why you would).

      Honestly, I’m not sure what they plan to do with this data at all. At first I thought it might make sense as a way to talk about your specialties, but a single case (even your own) does not make you an expert on anyone else’s experience. Having the personal experience + lots of study (including interviewing other people in the same audience) makes you an expert.

    7. MissGirl*

      Just want to clarify. I know pansexual doesn’t mean will have sex with anyone; it means you don’t have a gender preference. My point is though, this is a super detailed questionaire. If they simply wanted to get to diversity, they could simply ask if I identify as LGBTQ+ without me going into specific detail.

      1. Calamity Janine*

        i have bad news about both what a lot of the letters in that acronym stand for, and for what the plus stands for. asking specifically about these identities is a way to very pointedly include them, and especially to *normalize* them by fighting the queerphobia that says they’re inappropriate (so only are more tolerable in generalizations). they are also flagging that they do specifically care and accept those identities that often can get short shrift – asexuals and aromantics, for example.

        these historically oppressed groups also deserve to be recognized specifically. consider applying this to another area of diversity. would you accept an application that asked you, “are you white, or do you identify as racially diverse”? do you think phrasing the question like that would make a black person, a korean-american person, or an indigenous member of the Cree tribe feel at home and like the company recognized who they are?

        ultimately your phrasing treats being cishet as the default, and you think that specifying beyond “not the default” is inappropriate because it becomes too sexually explicit. that’s… just actually more queerphobia. you know that, right? it’s not Are You Normal Or Are You One O’ Them Sex Freaks. that’s not equality, and that’s not inclusion, that’s not diversity, and that’s not *justice*. to accept diversity you have to actually accept that people are… diverse. not just ‘not normal’. and you have to accept them as more than just ‘not normal’.

        the specific detail is already something that is assumed if you’re cishet. and getting squeamish about specific identities being listed out, because that makes it somehow inappropriate to acknowledge that the category isn’t just “not heterosexual”, instead of an acronym is… well… more evidence that this is a “you and the queerphobia you need to deal with” problem. you’re still getting squicked out by specific queer identities and treating them like they’re an evil villain whose name is so dastardly cannot be spoken without fifteen people fainting in shock, because if you name that specifically you must be talking about only bedroom activities and that is therefore inappropriate.

        tldr this is unfortunately more evidence this is a you problem and not less

        1. MissGirl*

          Thanks. I’m happy to learn to be better. I didn’t think most people would want to be asked this level of detail, but it’s good to learn new perspectives and shift mine as well.

        2. Roland*

          All of this would make sense if we were talking about a social situation but we are talking about a job application! They ask about race so they can see if their hiring is racially biased. Unless you think people who are pan, or aro, or questioning, face hiring biases that are distinct from one another and will provide enough data that conclusions can be drawn from it, this is a horrible analogy.

          1. Bit o' Brit*

            It’s both inclusion and bias monitoring, though. For reporting purposes it probably does make sense to roll all the “non-hetero” answers together, but that’s trivial to do. The effort saved by using a less-inclusive question is negligible, and the positive impression of recognising more than “straight” and “not” should be worth more.

            1. Calamity Janine*

              exactly. it’s also a specific signal to candidates that their identities are included and respected. (i mean, Bit o’ Brit’s reply below shows just how that works!)

              to show a workplace is actually inclusive, the workplace has to actually include people. it may seem silly to you, Roland, but it’s not silly to the people who specifically have been fighting to be recognized and included.

              1. Roland*

                It’s weird that you’re making assumptions about how I am and am not included in the workplace. You can’t deduce someone’s situation by whether or not they agree with you. I don’t find the need to share everything about myself on an online blog, similarly to how I don’t want to share it with a job app of all things.

                1. Calamity Janine*

                  well, you are talking to people who are explaining how they believe this is important. my cishet self is echoing what my queer friends say, but Bit o’ Brit has explicitly offered a personal example of how it is helpful. you don’t have to want to share all of this. you just have to respect that this is indeed a thing important to many people, that they have been fighting for, and it’s not actually being valued for super pushy reasons of violating workplace boundaries.

                  especially how some of the group’s listed, like aro/ace folks, are sadly commonly excluded from that LGBTQ+ grouping.

                  if you have intercommunity issues with that, then sure, bring that up in specific community discussions. but a lot to queer folks find this very important and very much have struggled for this. as my cishet self talking to another cishet person, as was my replies here to the original commenter (who took them with grace, which i honestly must compliment), it’s important for us to spot the queerphobia and work to not perpetuate it. that means pushing back against the bigoted notion that these identities are inherently too lewd for the workplace. if the assumption being cishet isn’t too prying and invasive, then really, opening things up to more than “assumed default” isn’t either.

                  as a cishet person i don’t get the exact intricacies, sure. but i still listen to the people talking about why it’s very important to them, and how it hurts to not have it. just because it’s not important to me doesn’t mean it’s not important to them. you can consider yourself in a similar position – it’s not important to you, sure. but it’s really, really important to other people, and that has to be respected in order to be truly inclusive and just.

      2. Bit o' Brit*

        As an asexual I don’t even identify as LGBTQ+, so if that were the tickbox I would slip through the DEI net (not that people, myself included, tend to care about ace representation).

        2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

          Out of curiosity, why not? I’m ace, in an ace marriage, and have an ace partner (polycule), but even before the relationship stuff I always saw myself as queer so I’m curious about why others don’t. Not challenging, just curious.

          1. Bit o' Brit*

            Mainly because LGBTQ+ spaces and Pride always seemed highly sexualised. It’s like a multi-faith “Gods are great!” celebration, but I’m atheist. Nothing wrong with it, and I’m welcome to attend, but it’s obviously not being thrown for my demographic.

            “Queer” was the slur used to bully people while I was at school, so it’s not a word I identify with. I just assumed I was broken and/or depressed. Though some of that was the ASD I didn’t get diagnosed with until I was an adult.

            It does tickle me that the asexual flag has a stripe on it representing non-asexual people. You don’t see that on the other flags.

            1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

              That’s cool. Queer was a slur when I was in high school but I like the reclamation movement, but I totally understand that it is not for everyone.

              Thank you for answering me!

          2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Also ace-not-queer-identifying – for me, it’s partly because being ace is not an identity for me any more than not liking dark chocolate or being a teetotaler is an identity, and partly because I’m a woman married to a man and unless I want to get way more detailed than I consider anybody else’s business about my marriage bed, calling myself “queer” feels like I’m trying to claim a minority identity while being the passing-est of hetero-passers. I don’t generally even “come out” as ace in the real world because to me, ace isn’t a relationship thing that’s life-relevant the way LGB+ identities often are, it’s purely and explicitly about my sex drive and I don’t need to discuss sex with anyone else.

          3. Irish Teacher*

            My reasoning is fairly similar to Red Reader the Adulting Fairy’s.

            My experience is different from Red Reader the Adulting Fairy’s, in that I have no interest in having any kind of romantic relationship, marriage, etc and have known since I was a small child that I did not want this.

            It just seems weird to me to identify based on something I have no interest in. As I said below, it feels a bit like being somebody who has no interest in sports identifying along with fans of minority sports. Which apart from anything else, implies everybody MUST be a sports fan. “Oh, you don’t like any of the popular sports? So you’re a fan of one of those obscure sports then!”

            And like Red Reader the Adulting Fairy, I don’t “come out” in any sense. I am sure those who are close to me have noticed that I have never dated or anything along those lines, but…it’s not something that really comes up in that one doesn’t talk about a negative. If I were gay or bisexual, presumably I would want to introduce my partner to people and have them recognised as a major part of my life, but…as somebody who is single because of being aromantic asexual…how is that any different from somebody who is single because they are very focused on their career or something and have no time for a relationship? Or because they haven’t met the right person? I mean, how they FEEL about it is probably different, in that they are making a conscious choice rather than it being the default for them, but in their social interactions. I don’t see why anybody would need to know the reason I’m not in a relationship. If somebody asked or it came up, I’d probably tell them, but what one is not doing isn’t really that interesting.

            Also, this may be somewhat cultural, but in many ways, in my experience, being asexual is more likely to lead to positive discrimination. Being single, which is what people notice about it, is more likely to make employers think you will be dedicated to your job, have less distractions, etc or to make people think you are “living a moral life.”

            I do think there IS a cultural element to it for me because Ireland traditionally had very large numbers of people who were not in relationships/remained permanently single, some because they were priests or nuns, some because the amount of emigration meant potential partners were limited (people emigrated primarily due to lack of work, so if all the work available in an area was manual labour, women would be more likely to emigrate and men would outnumber women), some because they were not financially secure enough to marry, etc. And some, no doubt, because they were gay and COULDN’T be openly with the person they loved. A historian, Diarmuid Ferriter wrote in “Occasions of Sin,” that in 1936, about a quarter of the Irish population was permanently celibate (obviously, this is based on the assumption that not marrying meant celibate, which it may not have, but for a significant proportion of those people, it probably did). Now, that is nearly 100 years ago and obviously, that is not the case today, but still, in my childhood, a lot of older people were unmarried and assumed to be “permanent bachelors” or spinsters and the explanations usually went like “ah, he/she is a great son or daughter. Looked after their parents ’til they died” or “he/she was just too smart and career focused to be bothered with relationships” or “she didn’t want to give up her career and marry.”

            I think at least to outsiders, my experience is far more like that of those who were straight but didn’t meet the right person or chose their career over marrying and as a woman, being forced to leave their job (in the civil service, teaching, etc) than it is like those who were gay and had to hide their relationships for fear of real consequences. The only practical difference that I can see between being straight but choosing to remain single and being aromantic asexual is that it’s easier for me, because I have no desire for a relationship (practical difference for ME, personally, I mean. I know other people feel differently).

            Romantic and sexual relationships to me are just a thing other people are interested in, that I’m not, like rugby or Game of Thrones or crochet. I don’t identify as asexual any more than I identify as a person who isn’t into Game of Thrones. In both cases, if you asked me, I’d say “I’m asexual” or “no, I’m not a fan of Game of Thrones,” but…in neither case is it part of my identity and well, maybe Star Wars/Star Trek would be a better example. I’m not into either of those either, but putting me say in with the Star Trek fans because I’m not a fan of Star Wars seems a pretty close analogy to putting me in with gay and bisexual and transgender people because I’m not straight.

            It puts straight as the norm and everybody else goes together.

      3. Irish Teacher*

        This may just be my personal idiosyncrasy, but honestly, as somebody who is aromantic asexual, I really like having the option to tick that. I always feel like saying I identify as LGBTQ+ is sort of co-opting (and would probably tick “no” if just asked “do you identify as LGBTQ+?” but then, that implies I’m heterosexual, which isn’t accurate either). It sort of feels to me like say not being a sports fan and somebody saying “oh, you don’t like soccer, football or baseball? Then I’ll put you down as a fan of minority sports.”

    8. None of their beeswax*

      FWIW, I’m queer and would also feel pretty uncomfortable with that question if there wasn’t a “prefer not to disclose” option. I want my work to have as little info as possible about my sexual & gender identity, as I’m a very private person and I don’t see it as any of their business. And at the same time, I don’t like to put down an untrue answer, by saying I’m straight just to avoid disclosing a queer identity. If there is a “prefer not to disclose” option, then I wouldn’t have an issue since that respects my privacy, and would see it as more of a positive that they include a variety of labels, as it does certainly signal the company is trying to be inclusive. Though I would still have questions about how they’re actually using that data.

  47. Clothes are armor*

    I staff a committee that has an annual meeting next May. I am expected to attend and facilitate the meeting. The committee is considering piggybacking on a conference held by an organization several of them are involved with as a way to increase interest (for reference, the committee has about 900 eligible members but in past years 20 at this meeting has been high turnout). The topic of the conference is extremely appropriate for this committee, and it’s a conference I’m interested in.

    The conference is being held at the place my ex best friend works. We had a very messy breakup about 10 years ago that remains painful; we had known each other 25 years. My expectation is that, depending on the day of the meeting, we would see each other (the conference is Fri-Sun; her job last I knew was Tues-Fri; she may not attend over the weekend but has a tangential interest in the topic). I don’t know of any reason she would be staffing the facility.

    My feeling is that it’s inappropriate to flag this for the committee chair, given the advantages of using this event for its purpose. Is that correct? My expectation is that if we do see each other she will act like everything is fine, given that she’s been doing that for ten years.

    I have enough lead time to seek out both a therapist and a truly kickass wardrobe and hairstylist. Our dress code is anything goes and my personal style is more edgy. Any recommendations for designers working in plus size who would convey either “oh, of course I remember you, it’s Ethel, isn’t it” or “good gosh look at these subtle hallmarks of quality; I guess things HAVE changed for me since we last saw each other!” (I was working a severely underpaid job when she knew me last.) I could just default to all-black, which is usually a power move (I’m 6’4”) but it feels a bit weird for May. My goal is appearing professional, unbothered, flourishing, moisturized, and in my lane.

    1. Former Recruiter, Current HR Generalist*

      My feeling is that it’s inappropriate to flag this for the committee chair, given the advantages of using this event for its purpose. Is that correct?

      Yes, this is correct – it’s inappropriate to flag to the committee chair.

      1. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

        The best revenge is living well. Own it.
        If you do see “Ethyl” you politely and professionally nod, smile, and say something like “So good to see you Ethyl, hope you’re enjoying the conference/event,” in your best snooty Katherine Hepburn voice, and then quickly move on/ignore her. Really, this person has no power over your life.

    2. ferrina*

      Don’t flag it for the chair. It’s been ten years, and you have no reason to think it would be an issue that the chair/people running the conference would even be able to get involved in.

      And don’t let the possibility of seeing one person that you knew a decade ago define how you are at the conference. Go, be yourself, and assume she won’t be there. It would probably be useful to practice a few scripts in case you do see her (“Oh, it’s been a long time, sorry, got to run to the next event” – don’t pick a fight or prove that you’re superior, the best karma is being confident for yourself, not smug for someone else), but your focus should be getting as much as you can from the conference. I’m not really sure where the designers fit in, but wear what makes you feel confidence and conveys a message to the other 100+ conference goer, not to a single person.

    3. Calamity Janine*

      for specific style tips – as a plus-sized woman odd in lumpy ways, clothing that is made to measure was legitimately lifechanging for me. eshakti is my go-to. their customization fee includes not just being made to your measurements, but for things like adjusting neck/sleeve style and length. plus all their dresses come with huge pockets and bra-keeper straps by default. simply having something actually tailored to fit is an enormous upgrade in terms of looking polished, but in a pleasingly nebulous way that people will have trouble figuring out exactly what you did because they are in awe of your glow, lol. plus they have a lot of dresses that can be more ‘business appropriate but spring-ey’, with a pleasant pattern or some cute embroidery. (and a lot of fit-and-flare style dresses, which i favor because they are very flattering to larger body types.)

      i think a therapist is also a really good idea, because if nothing else, you can get some advice on how to fake it until you make it. just fake it like you are completely unbothered and flourishing to the point of barely remembering your ex-friend’s name, and eventually, you’ll get there! if along the way you end up having a huge upgrade in terms of your mental health, your wardrobe, your hairstyle and skincare routine… the best revenge is living well!

      (plus, it being an event where they want to push these two societies more together to get better support for both, you have the perfect reason to want to appear at your A-game. and it doesn’t involve paying any mind to your ex-friend at all!)

    4. Maggie*

      I’m not sure what you’d be flagging. That you know someone there who you believe will act normally towards you? The best revenge is living well so just be you and forget about the old drama

    5. Oh, That Meg*

      Diarrablu. That’s my recommendation.

      The designer was part of a cohort last year at my current job and her stuff is edgy, high quality, and screams “I own who I am”

    6. NaoNao*

      Universal Standard, Eileen Fisher Woman, Marina Rinaldi (be prepared to drop some coin on that brand), 11 Honore, Eloquii for fun dinner stuff or more casual items, Vince. They all do beautifully made “stealth wealth” items in luxe fabrics. US and Eloquii lean casual and sporty, but they’re great for foundation items, statement items, or fun items.

    7. SofiaDeo*

      Please don’t flag it for the chair, and please try to figure out why you feel the need to either say something dismissive “oh, it’s Ethel, isn’t it” or think that this person cares what your socioeconomic standing is and you need to convey “something” by your clothing. Other than, wear something that makes you feel good about yourself, whether or not you happen to run into this person. It sounds like your falling out was awful, and is still painful when you think of them. And that even though she acts like “everything is fine” when you do see each other since the falling out, you are somehow still disturbed at even seeing her. I am so sorry. This must be awful for you. Wear something that makes you feel good about yourself, and good about your place in your profession/organization, even if that’s all black in May. You are facilitating the meeting, so already are professional and flourishing, if she happens to secretly check. A new killer outfit is empowering, go for it, along with a great moisturizer. So if you do see her, you can truly finally feel “everything is fine, we are no longer besties but have moved past the pain to just be polite people passing in a public setting.”

    8. Ginger Baker*

      All-black seems pretty standard to me? But I am in NYC so…; I was both surprised and offput once when I guy I was seeing long-distance made a comment while I was visiting about how I “could wear something not black” when I complained about the heat. I…don’t own non-black pants?? I was SO confused (and suffice to say that comment was an unfortunate canary that we didn’t have similar views in a number of ways).

      I vote all-black!

  48. Venty McVenterton*

    I’m beyond burn out. My boss left earlier this spring and I have learned very few people in our leadership make actual decisions. They all bounce the ball into someone else’s court. My boss would pick up those balls and run with it, regardless if it was something our department should handle, and as a result many things that she did made the company look great, made senior leaders look great, made departments look great — even when they weren’t involved in any aspect of the strategy around the projects.

    So we have a lot of entitled people in departments who think they do great work. And now that our department is taking it down a notch, because – we’re TIRED – they’re all looking at us when something goes wrong. Because… it worked before. And it worked before, because someone else (my boss) was doing a strategic part of their job.

    I have reached the point where I just assume I’m doing a bad job, because I don’t have the bandwidth to think more about it. (I was running on adrenaline the first 3 months after she left). I’m not able to delegate quite a bit of the more sensitive aspects of my work, because my team is not experienced in it and if I’m honest, they’re not the strongest. They’re not bad, for the most part they were fine before, but with the recently added pressure… its identified some areas of improvement, which I don’t have time to address, because I’m burned out and can only deal in immediate issues for the moment. And while I support the ability to fail, my company does not foster an environment that embraces failure and so, I give them what I can and take the stressful stuff for myself.

    I’m told to take time off. Would be great. If I didn’t have three projects launching in the next two months, not to mention the random sensitive issues that land in my inbox (I’ve had three of those this week too). Every time I try to identify a week to take off, there’s a launch date or my current supervisor has a vacation (we both can’t be off at the same time). I’m trying to get by on taking a day here and there. But, it’s not really working. I am applying for jobs, had a few interviews, which went ok for the most part (hit the final round of a few jobs I wasn’t entirely interested in). But I have yet to interview somewhere where I walked away feeling confident I would appreciate the job. I’m cranky, miserable, hate my job and career, and depressed that I’m not moving the needle.

    1. ferrina*

      I am so, so sorry. This is a horrible situation, and none of it is your fault.

      First, cut back on how invested you are in work. Figure out what you are responsible for and what you aren’t, and for the things that aren’t your problem, save that energy for something else. Your mantra is “I’m sorry, I can’t take that on right now.” Failure is going to happen- the only question is whether it happens around you or to you. Clearly define what is yours and do that well- let people know what is not yours and don’t touch it.

      You’re already interviewing, which is excellent. Figure out how badly you need a new job- are you looking for Something Wonderful, or is Okay enough? Okay might still be miles better than here. I’ve been in job searches where I just needed to find an Okay place where I could recover for a couple years, then I would look for the Wonderful place. (that was supposed to be my current job, but my role evolved and now I’m really loving it).

      Talk to your supervisor about taking time off. If you trust your supervisor, use the words “burn out”- that should trigger serious concern. If you don’t trust your supervisor or think there may be repercussions, tell them that you need a week to unplug and ask what needs to happen to get that. Enlist their help in finding that week. Most projects can be moved or someone else can cover for a week (will they leave it a bit of a mess? Sure, but sometimes that just means that the client is more relieved when you’re back!)

      Prioritize yourself. There is no magic solution out of this. It may get worse before it gets better. Good luck!

      1. Venty McVenterton*

        THANK YOU! To be honest, my current supervisor is in the same boat as me (probably moreso), which demonstrates that this is becoming a senior level problem that no one on the senior level is paying attention to, probably because things are still moving. (They’ll likely go all deer-in-headlights when things stop moving)

        I am willing to take the Okay job. I’m willing to take a paycut and/or a demotion actually, because I’ve also learned that I don’t like being a manager and I need a break from what I’m doing. I would take easy over ambition, money, or title at this point. Interestingly, the jobs I’m getting interest from are more work and a better title, which is ironic because it’s the last thing I need right now.

        My ultimate fantasy is a quiet little job away from the city where I currently live, plug away for 8 hours, get paid enough to afford a small apartment, my car, my pet and go out to eat 2x a week. Done. I’m really, really easy – my job (and honestly my career) is not.

  49. Bex (with computers)*

    How do I recover from oversharing? (TW brief mention of SA putting lots of space)

    I was SA’d over a weekend in September. It obviously affected me and I did the dumb thing of trying to carry on w life like nothing happened. I went to work. I didn’t hold up well. Crying and panic attacks.

    I’m close with one of my colleagues, who joined me on a break. they asked what was up. I’d been stressed and no sleep and my emotions are all screwed up and I blurted out that I’d been SA’d. That’s all I said, I didn’t go into details. I was horrified and pretty much ran inside to get back to work because wtf.

    How do I recover from this? How do I apologize to my colleague for pushing this info on them? I don’t think I need to worry about asking to keep it private – I trust their discretion and we’ve worked together for almost three years.

    But I don’t know what to do.

    (For any concerned. I’ve gotten and am getting help support etc. )

    1. BrightFire*

      You don’t need to apologize for sharing this. It sounds like you are ashamed but you really don’t need to be.

      Your coworker may not know how to respond but my guess is that they feel compassion for you and are going to follow your lead on this. I’ve had colleagues tell me they have been SA’d and I listen. However, out of respect, I am not going to bring it up again unless they want to.

      1. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        Yes, cosigning BrightFire.
        If you didn’t give any details, you haven’t pushed any information on your colleague. They asked, you answered minimally. There aren’t a lot of ways you could have answered *less* without brushing off the question, perhaps only “I had a very difficult personal experience over the weekend, and I’m still shook up.”
        You might understandably be feeling a little more vulnerable or protective of your privacy now. Or the feelings you have about about the experience itself may be coloring how you feel about your colleague knowing that it happened. But the mere fact that (a bad thing) happens not only to strangers but also colleagues, is not TMI. A hurtful thing happened to you, you didn’t ddo anything wrong to your colleague, and and they are likely nowhere near as affected by your disclosure as you are (even if they had a similar experience of their own). Not horrified, more likely concerned for you.

        You don’t need to apologize. You don’t need to say anything about it ever again if you don’t want to — a considerate person will follow your lead, an inconsiderate person you should ignore.
        But, *if* it would feel better to say *something,* perhaps to put things back on a less vulnerable footing between you, you might make an opportunity to not apologize, but thank your colleague for caring/listening, and assure them you are getting support. If you want to let them know what you’d like from them going forward, this would be a good time to mention that too. Like, “I know you you’ll keep this in complete confidence” or “I hope you won’t treat me any differently, even if I don’t seem quite my usual self” or whatever makes sense for you.

        I’m sorry that happened to you. I’m glad you’re getting support and I hope it’s helpful.

    3. ferrina*

      Echoing BrightFire and Lily Rowan-

      You have nothing to apologize for. You did nothing wrong. You had a normal response to a horrific and abnormal situation.

      It sounds like your coworker is a reasonable person. They know that you were just reacting normally to something horrible. A reasonable person won’t be made or offended or clutch their pearls- they’ll be worried for you and hope that you’re getting support! They’ll care about you. They’ll want to support you however you need. Is there support that you want from this person? Would you like to just focus on work? A therapist can help you figure this out.

      There’s a lot of self-blame language in your comment. You say you “pushed this info” on them, but all you did was respond to their question! A question that they asked because they were concerned about you, because you had been acting abnormal (again, because you were being a normal, reasonable human being having a normal, reasonable reaction to a trauma). Do not blame yourself for being normal or human. And reasonable people around you will not blame you either (if someone does blame you, that’s a sign that they are wrong).

    4. secretstoneraccount*

      If you feel that you made the other person uncomfortable, then I think you could simply say something like “I so appreciated how kind you were to me the other day, and I’m so sorry if what I shared upset or overwhelmed you. I was feeling very overwhelmed myself at the time! But I know hearing about that in the middle of your work day was probably pretty blindsiding and I’m sorry for dumping on you!” I agree with other commentors, though, that many people would perceive how upset you had been in that conversation and would not hold that against you at all, particularly a person as sensitive as your colleague who noticed something was off with you to begin with. But if you’re feeling a sort of emotional hangover from sharing, saying something simple and expressing appreciation might be the way to go. And I am so, so sorry this happened to you and that you’re now having to deal with this at all <3

      2. Chauncy Gardener*

        Thank you. I didn’t either.

        And I’m so so sorry this happened to you, OP! And please don’t beat yourself up over what you said to your co-worker!

    6. jane's nemesis*

      Sending hugs, Bex. I’m so sorry this happened to you, and I’m so glad you’re getting support.

    7. Amorphous Eldritch Horror*

      Oh that is awful. You have all my sympathies and hopes for healing.

      I don’t think you need to apologize. What you can do is quietly, at the proverbial water cooler, tell your coworker, “thank you for asking about me the other day. I’m okay/getting help. Now how about that local sports team/event/movie/TPS report?” That closes off the conversation that was left hanging.

    8. Nesprin*

      If you flip it around and your coworker had blurted something like this out at you, I’m guessing you’d worry about them, hope they’re doing well, and try to help them out however you could. If they’re someone who you trust and are close to, trust them to help you carry this burden.

    9. Irish Teacher*

      I don’t think you need to apologise for this at all. I have a colleague who has told me some pretty personal stuff about her life (she’s pretty open about it in general, but she has told me some stuff that she doesn’t even announce to the workplace at large) and I feel…well, not sure how to put this without trivialising but I’m glad that she trusts me. I would never expect her to apologise or to feel she can’t talk about her experiences.

      You did nothing wrong and I’m sure your colleague is just concerned for you.

  50. MissGirl*

    Open thread for job hunters!

    How’s it going? What’s working? What’s not? Successes or failures? Need help?

    1. MissGirl*

      Question on negotiation. I agree to a range at a couple of companies that’s a bit low. I told them it would depend on the benefits package before I could say for sure. I’ve since learned that they don’t offer a 401K match. If they matched my current salary, it would be a drop in pay for me. If they come back with an offer at the top of the range, do I have any room to negotiate?

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Yes, I think it’s fine to say something along the lines of “based on what I’ve learned about the role/benefits, I would need at least $XX to accept this offer.” If they ask questions, or respond along the lines of “but you said range Y – Z was good!” you can explain that your current company offers a 401K match and they do not, so you need XX in order to accept the offer. (I don’t think anyone will challenge you with a “you agreed to range Y – Z, but you will feel more confident if you know you can calmly explain your reasoning before you make the first ask.)

        1. ecnaseener*

          I would include the explanation up front, to avoid any private thoughts of “wow MissGirl must have been lying earlier”

    2. cubone*

      I’m finishing a course and have had some time off, originally to care for a family member, but partially it gave me a good out from my toxic job. The time off has been SO good for my mental and physical health, and while I’m relatively optimistic about my job hunt … I’m really afraid of working again I guess! I worry I’m going to burn out again in a full time role and end up right back where I started (but I can’t afford unemployment forever)

      1. MissGirl*

        I’ve been really lucky with all my full-time roles to be respective of that work/life balance. I hope you find something that feeds you. How are you putting your coarse work on the your resume? I’m looking at taking an online class in a coding language but wasn’t sure how I would put it on there.

    3. TiredSickAndYoung*

      I’ve been kinda halfheartedly applying for jobs for the past 6 months. I’ve done a couple phone screens, a handful of interviews, even got a job offer that I turned down. (If you lump your sick time and vacation time in one pool, anyone with a disability who has options is going to turn you down.) But I have been slowly progressing through the many many hoops of this fancy tech company’s hiring process, and I am now in their pool of “you passed all our tests and we want to hire you, but now we have to find an open position for you.” I’m considering whether this really slow process is a red flag, but all the reviews on glassdoor are pretty positive and I would love a fully remote job with unlimited PTO.

    4. KoiFeeder*

      I am on track to get 100 rejections by the end of December, despite most companies ghosting me! Yay?

      1. Allison*

        Oh man, I think I might be getting close to 100. I was a finalist for at least two jobs, had screeners for a couple others, but I’d like to be a part of a team again. I started freelancing after getting laid off, and I like a lot of the stories I’ve done, but just feel isolated.

  51. BrightFire*

    My office mate, who has 20+ years of experience, makes comments that imply I’m incompetent. Like “I wish we had an ‘office manager’ that knew what they were doing. No offense”.

    I was promoted to this position a few months ago despite my lack of experience. My coworker isn’t wrong. I am still learning and I don’t have 20 years of experience in this field. However, I get high praise throughout the rest of the company and from my boss. I know I have a lot to learn but I’m not completely incompetent.

    I really like my coworker but her comments are really disheartening and hurt my feelings. I addressed this with her yesterday and she was upset for the rest of the day. It is now really awkward between us and I’m wondering if I made a mistake by bringing this up to her.

    1. Sherm*

      I think you did the right thing. Maybe she was upset with herself, because she realized she was being an ass. A period of awkwardness is probably worth it if it makes the comments stop.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh boy. I might have snapped at that. “Jane, I didn’t make the hiring decision. Take it up with Boss if you feel that strongly, but otherwise you can keep you opinions to yourself.”

      Anyways, she is upset that you called her out, and is covering her shame/guilt/whatever with the awkwardness. Just keep on doing your job.

    3. Chestnut Mare*

      She’s not implying anything. She’s being insulting to your face. You didn’t make a mistake by bringing it up to her; it’s likely that no one has ever held her accountable for her poor behavior. Let her be upset, and be proud that you advocated for yourself.

    5. MeepMeep123*

      It is normal to be upset when you make a rude comment that hurts someone’s feelings. That’s the reason that most people don’t make rude comments that hurt people’s feelings. Usually, people learn that lesson at the age of 5, but your office mate appears to have missed that memo. Thankfully, you’re there to teach her the basic manners her parents failed to teach her.

      Meaning, don’t feel bad about her being upset, and hold your head up high. She doesn’t have the right to insult you and you have no obligation to put up with it.

    6. irene adler*

      Give it a little time. And you have to act like nothing has changed between the two of you
      (except, if she makes more disparaging remarks at your expense, then you’ll need to revisit things.).

      If she’s any kind of normal, the awkwardness will fade. Things will return to status quo. AND she will no longer make insulting remarks at your expense.

      And you did fine with addressing this.

    7. Hotdog not dog*

      You addressed it better than I likely would have. My first thought was, “yes, and I wish I had a more compassionate coworker,” which would probably have slipped right out, since the filter between my brain and my mouth has been out of commission for years now!

    8. YS*

      I’m going to argue that anytime someone caps a sentence with “… no offense” it’s usually because it’s offensive. You called her out in the kindest way. She is forced to acknowledge that what she said was sh***y and that saying “no offense” does not mitigate saying asinine things to people. Let her feel bad about it. Just be generally civil to her, say good morning, compliment her earrings. My guess is that once she realizes that you don’t care what she says now that you’ve called her out for saying rude things, she’ll do one of two things. Be normal and treat you nicely. Or revert back to the way she was and the process will repeat itself. Either way, you win because you’ve advocated for yourself and maintained your good spirit.

      1. NotRealAnonforThis*

        Yeah, “no offense” simply means they lack the spine to finish the thought with “full offense intended”.

    9. Joanne’s Daughter*

      I don’t think you made a mistake, using the term “no offense” says to me she knew she was offending you but really didn’t care. If things are awkward right now I believe it’s on her. Perhaps she’ll think twice before being an ahole again.

    10. Girasol*

      Seems like a reasonable approach. It sounds like she’s either jealous that you have the job or feels somehow threatened by you, so she’s hurting somehow. But she can’t be allowed to continue acting that way.

  52. The Ginger Ginger*

    I don’t know how to cope with exhaustion/burn out when I’m in a critical role and I’m already doing all the advised things to avoid burnout.

    I’m responsible for roadmap for a digital product that intersects with a lot of legal requirements around privacy law (no PII but we still have to be compliant), data security (nothing extremely sensitive, but again, have to stay on top of changing requirements), and accessibility requirements (very important and a passion of mine).

    I’m not an expert in any of these things, and these aren’t the only things I’m responsible for, nor is this the only product I’m responsible for. Resources are thin, company wants these things managed but not enough to provide more resources, and I’m starting to feel generally underwater in all of my things, though these requirements stress me out the most.

    I’m escalating my concerns as I have them, but I feel a little like I’m not making any headway as everyone agrees with me, then nothing changes. And I’m starting to just…..not have the energy to continue. My motivation is gone, and I just feel overwhelmed all the time and my output is abysmal. As a former “rockstar” according to my peers, this feels truly awful. I don’t know what to do.

    I took an 8 week sabbatical at the beginning of the year because I was feeling burnt out and moving into my first home. I’m so frustrated to already be back at this point so soon after taking such an extended break. What do I do? I feel like I’ve already followed all the advice. I took a break, I’m escalating issues, I’m delegating where I can, I did therapy, I’m on anti-depressants. What’s next when it feels like there’s nothing left to try?

    1. Venty McVenterton*

      I feel you. If you read above, I posted about my boss leaving and a few of us picking up the slack. It’s… a lot. I literally asked for help before she left. I expressly said, we should bring someone in. It was denied. I was told that we would be able to say no to things. We’ve said no to nothing. The amount of work we’re doing is the same. The success of that work is nowhere close to what we were doing before. While I can’t say we’re failing, I can say that half the department is exhausted and the other half are complaining they have too much work to do (though to be frank – those complaining are not really pitching in much more than they did before).

      I’m back on medication because my anxiety was too much. The side effect is that without the adrenaline from my anxiety, I’ve lost every speck of motivation. I almost wish they would reorg the department, give me severance, and let me go. Or I could break a leg. That could work too.

    2. ferrina*

      Do less.

      It sounds like you’ve been doing 110% for a while, and that’s not sustainable. You’ve been borrowing against yourself, and there’s a price to pay for that (i.e., burnout). I have been in that situation….er, more times than I actually want to cop to.

      Start saying no. Honestly, that’s been one of the best ways I found to get a company to delegate more resources. Return the hard choices to them, including the choice about how you should spend your time. “I can either do Project A on time and not work on Project B, or I can start working on Project B and push back Project A by 2 months. What would you like me to do?”

      When you do this, it helps to be specific. Tell them what the exact trade off will be. And don’t be generous with your time- if Task A used to take you 3 hours and now it takes you 5 hours, then it takes you 5 hours. Don’t give more than 42 hours per week (I think that’s the true answer to life, the universe and everything). My boss once had me working 60 hour weeks in the slow season because she couldn’t be bothered to hire anyone- I finally said I couldn’t take on another client project unless they wanted me to deliver other client projects late, so what would they like me to do? My VP tried to convince me that I had more hours in my day (nope, sure didn’t) and finally realized that I couldn’t do more output without more resources (simple math). Within a week I had the greenlight to hire 2 more people. It turns out they could give headaches, but they couldn’t take them. Ultimately, that was just one in a long string of issues with the company, and I was so happy when I finally left.

      Good luck!

  53. NaoNao*

    After having a mini meltdown post recent-work-event, I talked to my sister and she mentioned it sounded like the emotions some non neurotypical people experience after having to mask for extended periods of time. It really hit the nail on the head for me. I am drained, confused, feel like I’m over-reacting but can’t seem to calm down, feel unappreciated, and angry.

    It seemed like my coworkers were very casual about things I was agonizing over mentally (for example, deciding not to attend a “fun dinner” post-main-event) and that felt confusing and like I couldn’t trust my own judgement. Watching someone casually pack up their bag and just say “Oh, I’m not going” when they were also part of the organizing/staffing effort and would be held to the same expectations and standards as myself made me really question everything.

    At any rate, I’ve long suspected I have ASD at the very least (grandfather, father, and nephew are all on spectrum) and could use resources for coping with these situations—where one must “mask” for 12+ hour days while also working in challenging conditions (chaotic events, physical labor expected, etc).

    Thanks all :)

    1. DivergentStitches*

      Hi (waves) former recruiter here, also autistic and was diagnosed at age 39. Hang in there!

      It helps to have supporting friends and family who are willing to be sounding boards so that when you’re upset about something, they can talk you down. I’ve been known to type out my feelings about something and they help me write it in a much more calm/diplomatic way.

      It takes a lot to get me upset, due to anti-anxiety medication that I take to help with this, but when I do get upset it takes a lot to calm down and often turns into a meltdown.

    2. ferrina*

      Hugs and love! I don’t know much about ASD, but I totally know that feeling of “Ooh! That’s what’s going on and why I’m so exhausted frustrated!” It is so profound!
      I’m ADHD, and I love the YouTube channel How To ADHD. She occasionally touches on ASD, and I’ve noticed that sometimes ADHD/ASD will overlap. There’s almost certainly YouTubers that have great content on ASD- that can be a great place to start.

    3. Alex*

      No advice, but I just want to say that this has really resonated with me…I’ve had some experiences where I have considered that maybe I’m on the AS (my dad is) and what you just described here feels very familiar (“drained, confused, feel like I’m over-reacting but can’t seem to calm down, feel unappreciated, and angry”) and hadn’t considered that a part of it. Really interesting.

    4. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      Hi Nao Nao,
      I’m a neurodivergent person with a couple different different diagnoses that share some features with ADHD and ASD, but I don’t officially have either of those. Feeling “drained, confused, feel like I’m over-reacting but can’t seem to calm down, feel unappreciated, and angry” and “questioning my own judgment” because someone else casually breaks a rule/expectation that I Could Never, is a familiar feeling to me.

      I’ve found that resources can be useful to me regardless of what diagnoses they claim to be for, if they’re neurodiversity-aware (acknowledge that all brains have differences as well as similarities, even within the same diagnosis) and if they address the specific symptoms or experiences I need help with. So this is a suggestion to try resources targeting flavors of neurodivergence, regardless of your most likely diagnosis. And, don’t neglect resources geared toward neurotypicals (they also have overwhelm meltdowns/shutdowns/ lose their cope and become dysregulated, just under different conditions than ND people usually).

      How to ADHD Youtube channel by Carly Fleishman, mentioned downthread, has a lot of good, actionable suggestions, mostly clearly labeled so you can find the ones that address whatever issue you’re working on.

      I can maybe come back with other recommendations, given more idea about what’s most a problem for you in the situations that tax your cope.
      For instance, you mention long days with chaotic conditions and physical labor as challenging circumstances; for me and a sample of 3 ND friends, each of those conditions would contribute different amounts of challenge, and need to be accommodated in different ways. The physical labor would actually be helpful rather than challenging for me if I were conditioned for it; it would offset the difficulty of dealing with chaos. For another friend, the opposite would be true, the physical bit would wear out her cope in ways the chaos wouldn’t.
      MHO, it’s important to address how challenging situations are a challenge *for you*.

      This is an excellent question to explore with a therapist, if you can access one. A good one should be able to help you identify your own pressure points or challenging situation, things you already do to mitigate/accommodate and how to extend those, and suggest additional things to try that you didn’t think of, that work for other people with similar difficulties. If any of those helps need a prescription or a diagnosis to access, a good therapist can help you pursue those, even if they can’t give them.

      Finally, the most helpful thing I have done to extend my coping is to stop masking in the sense that ND people usually mean– trying to appear “normal” or NT, the way a closeted or “stealth” queer/trans person tries to appear cis/het. There are real risks and disadvantages to being recognizable as a stigmatized minority, but I am privileged enough to be insulated from some, and willing to accept the other risks in return for better mental and physical health. I try to be (not appear) professionally skilled, diligent, courteous, and considerate, and other things I can inhabit wholeheartedly, rather than ‘normal’. I have more energy to use for coping when I’m not wasting it trying to work against myself for others’ preferences. If you can afford to unmask a bit, or even just reframe away from “masking” or not toward “being true to myself always, just selective about which parts I foreground at work” you may find it helpful as I do.

      Wishing you all the best.

  54. NeonDreams*

    How do you include a job on a resume when you feel like you haven’t done much there? I’ve decided my current job isn’t for me. I’ve been here almost exactly a year. I haven’t met any production standards. I can list what I did at the job but not any accomplishments because I haven’t done well. Would employers question it if I left it off?

    1. CharlieBrown*

      I think that’s an excellent reason to leave a job — it just wasn’t challenging enough and there was nothing for you to accomplish. I would keep the job on the resume and mention that very briefly in your cover letter.

    2. ferrina*

      Leave it on. A year would be a long time to leave off. I’d list what you have done as “accomplishments”, but have a longer list under other jobs where you’ve done better. Also reflect on why you feel like you don’t have accomplishments- bad manager? no training? terrible communication about roles, responsibilities and resources? Figure that out so you know what you are looking for in your next job.

    3. Gnome*

      I would put it on and put down what you did (filed reports, whatever). It might look a bit more job description than youd otherwise like, but you can address that in interviews and cover letters. E.g. why are you looking for a job? I’ve been at XYZ for about a year and I realize that the position isn’t a good fit. I’ve been doing A, B, and C but find I miss D and am better and E and F, which is why I’m excited about this role….

  55. JustaTech*

    Top Tip/Suggestion for anyone running a hybrid in-person/remote meeting: Please please make sure that the microphone you choose can actually pick up everyone in the room. It does no good to have people call in if they can’t hear half the conversation because the table is too long.
    Also, please share whatever’s being projected, and if you are working on a physical wall or whiteboard, turn on a camera or at least take a picture at the end of the session.

    Signed, a person who spent three days listening to 2/3 of a meeting (but was still constantly asked for input)

      1. JustaTech*

        Or even just one of those three-sided speakerphones on a stand in the middle of your super-collaborative horseshoe table.

        I understand why the folks on the phone get forgotten, especially if it’s only one or two people, but it is completely exhausting to not be able to hear big chunks of the conversation.

    2. Qwerty*

      I can’t recall who makes them, but we had a speakerphone where there were two portable speakers that we could position at either end of the long table. Made conference calls so much easier. I think the portable speakers were wireless and charged in the main speaker base to force you to return them “home” between meetings

    3. Girasol*

      Hybrid meetings are a poor way to collaborate. Better that the folks in the office should don a headset and join the session on equal footing with those who are remote, and learn to use the online whiteboarding tool of whatever meeting software is being used. Clumping people around a meeting room phone and drawing on a board with a marker is so yesterday.

  56. Not_Kate_Winslet*

    I had an interview last week for a job that I *really really really* want for many reasons. It’s in my field of interest, it’s a promotion, it’s away from the toxic dysfunctional dump where I currently work, etc.

    On paper, I’m the most qualified of the candidates (my industry is a small world, with a limited pool of qualified individuals, and it’s a poorly-kept secret who was invited to interview). The interview panel was 2 people who I collaborate with regularly and work well with, and 2 people who don’t know me or anything about the program I was interviewing with (annoying but pretty standard for us).

    I finished the interview feeling ok about it, but as I went for a walk later and was rehashing my answers, I started to realize how very poorly I did :( Like – I’m sure I bombed it. I haven’t interviewed in a couple of years, so I was very rusty on the interview norm of explaining the “what” of a scenario before launching into your example (i.e. I answered as though everyone on the panel knew what the National Llama Grooming Standards were before telling a story about how I had applied my knowledge to them in my program). I also left 10 minutes on the table… ugh.

    I’ve been self-flagellating all week. I’d love some tips for how to move on from this. Even if there was a candidate who is better-qualified (entirely possible), how do I save face with the two people who know me and work with me regularly? I’m now afraid they see me as incompetent. If I could self-combust from cringing, I’d be a pile of ash right now.

    1. jane's nemesis*

      Are you _sure_ you did that badly? You left feeling okay! It sounds to me like you’re just doubting yourself after the fact and being too hard on yourself.

      Also, if the two people you have collaborated with before are the ones with familiarity, would it have even seemed odd to them that you wouldn’t have stopped to explain the “what” of the scenario before your examples? I don’t think you would seem incompetent from this!

      Leaving 10 minutes on the table isn’t awesome, but interview nerves are definitely a Thing and I would hope they wouldn’t ding you for it!

      1. Not_Kate_Winslet*

        Thanks for responding. We’ll see what happens, I guess! The toxic environment I’m in has definitely sapped my sense of well-being and self-worth, so it’s a good kick in the pants to keep looking if this doesn’t pan out.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Second-guessing yourself is so, so common! It might even be worse when you’re at a senior level and have a wider knowledge base or more experiences to draw from, because then you are haunted by “I can’t believe I forgot to say this or add that!” when you remember them later (and you will). But while *you* might think of all the ways you could have done better, the interviewers may think your interview was great, or just fine, or whatever, and it’s really hard to know that.

        I don’t think you need to prepare to save face with your colleagues. In the worst case scenario that your interview went like you feared, if anything they would give you the benefit of the doubt because they know you and your expertise already. At most they might think you had an off day, but never that you are suddenly less qualified if you don’t get the offer.

    2. ferrina*

      The people you work regularly with already know you and what you’re capable of. A single hour of a bad interview won’t be enough to erase a long track record of strong work.

      Does it mean you’ll get the job? Who knows. But people don’t get jobs all the time for all sorts of reasons. But a single bad presentation won’t tank your reputation. Trust me, I’ve been on the other side of the table. A candidate had a really bad interview. She looked bored, uninspired, and we all walked away going “meh.” The hiring manager had worked with her before and said “okay, that was a bad interview. But that was nothing like what I saw when I worked with her. Let me tell you…”

      (I’m assuming that the interview was as bad as you think. But so often we are our own worst critic, and it wasn’t as utterly awful and terrible as we’re picturing in our head!)

      1. Not_Kate_Winslet*

        Thanks responding. I’m definitely grounding myself in that philosophy – of people not getting jobs for a lot of reasons. I’m holding out hope for a second round… we’ll see!

  57. Kiddo*

    I have a coworker, at the same level but with more experience, who has started calling me “kiddo”. Please, please help me respond in a professional way before I lose it!

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      “Hey el parento”

      just kidding. A quick conversation ” Hey George would you mind not calling me kiddo? Thanks” would work best. Follow up “George we’ve talked about this I’m not your kid, you cannot call me that”.

    2. cubone*

      I don’t know that I’d have the guts to do it in this context but sometimes when men say something weird and uncomfortable, I pretend I don’t recognize the words they’re using. like, “sorry can you repeat that?” and then slowly pronounce “k-id-oooo” with a confused look on your face and maybe ask how to spell it.

    5. ferrina*

      “Kiddo? Um, sure, you know me. I’m down with the fleek and the Fortnite and whatever it is the cool cats dig these days.”

      “But seriously, please don’t call me that.”

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Just call her “Kiddo” back. (If she then complains about you saying it, the appropriate response is “exactly.”)

      2. Tired of Working*

        That’s the best advice! At a previous company, the receptionist kept calling me ma’am. She wasn’t southern. We were about the same age. I was not her supervisor. I told her not to call me ma’am. She insisted that it was a sign of respect. I said that it wasn’t respectful to call me a name that I told her that I didn’t like. So I started calling her ma’am. For some reason, that made her very angry. I just kept it up, and she finally stopped calling me ma’am.

    7. JustaTech*

      Real answer: “Hey, can you please not call me kiddo?” “Still not kiddo.” “I’ve asked a couple of times for you to not call me that.” “We’ve talked about this, what’s up with you still calling me that?”

      Snarky answer: “What, like the Bride from Kill Bill?”

  58. Anon for this*

    I’ve recently noticed it seems like all the staff at the local breast specialty are women- not unusual for front desk people and nurses, obviously, but I’ve had multiple appointments at this point and don’t think I’ve noticed a single person obviously presenting as a dude beyond the waiting room. This would be a case where it is actually legal to discriminate by gender, right, since it’s safe to assume most patients would be more comfortable having a female radiologist do the necessary manhandling?

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Not legal discrimination because you don’t have to be female to be a breast specialist, and I’m also not sure why one would assume that patients would automatically be more comfortable with a female doctor. (Even if you assume that patients prefer a doctor of the same gender, which is not a reliable assumption, dudes get breast cancer too.)

    3. cubone*

      Someone else would probably have a better answer in the legal sense, but I have a high risk of breast cancer so have had many screenings/ultrasounds/mammo’s across a few different clinics, and all of the specialists I’ve seen have been women. It may just be more one of those correlation/causation thing, as in it’s not that they only hire women, just that there are a lot of women who want to work there?

    4. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I would guess most people who apply to work there are female. Female doctors face a lot of discrimination themselves, and often move into safe specialties (pediatrics, obgyn). But yes I think you’d have a case of it being a need for the job.

    5. Littorally*

      I wouldn’t think so. By that logic you wouldn’t expect to see male gynecologists either, but they seem to do okay.

      Plus, arguing that you need to be allowed to discriminate for the comfort of your clientele is a very, very slippery slope.

        1. Littorally*

          ~1 out of 6 seems like kind of a lot to call “not a thing.” But ok. Guess I’m hallucinating the guy who does my gyn care.

          1. Russian in Texas*

            I myself had a male OBGYN, although I switched. But this, I believe is the largest gap in specialization among medical professionals, and it’s getting bigger.

            1. Better later than never*

              It’s not – the gap between male and female urologists is larger. In the US, female urologists finally make up over 10% of the speciality, which was considered a massive increase from 8% in 2015. I would also argue that the low relative number of men in gynaecology is not related to discrimination against men (although there certainly may be individual cases where that is the case, there are a number of other factors that have impacted the gender split in the profession).

    7. Rose*

      That’s an interesting question. I was at the local radiology center 3x in the past two weeks – once for my annual mammogram/ultrasound, then 2 other times for an unrelated issue/body part- x-ray, followed by a CT scan when x-ray showed nothing. Front office staff is a mix of women and men (it is a big/busy place). The mammo and ultrasound techs were both women – I have always had women in the 5 or so years I am been getting annual mammograms. Tech who did my x-ray was female. Tech for CT scan was male. But I have had both male and females for past CTs/MRIs. To be honest, I would not be as comfortable with a man doing the mammo/ultrasound, but not sure if I would request a woman – though I am sure there are plenty of women who would insist.

    8. Aphrodite*

      I know I wouldn’t go to a male for this. Yes, it technically discriminatory but I would be very uncomfortable and ask not to see him.

      It also kind of reminds me of a college group project that was something like 75% of the final grade for this stats class. I can’t remember the focus of the project but in one of the answers to a question about discrimination someone had written: Women make better bra fitting salesmen. How true!

      1. Russian In Texas*

        Yes, I select a female OBGYN and a female GP.
        Don’t get to select mammogram personnel, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen a male employee at my mammogram center.

        1. JustaTech*

          The tech I had for my last breast MRI was a guy, but he was both very warm and very professional, so I didn’t really think anything of it. Also, for a breast MRI there isn’t any touching and really not much to see (you’re face down in the machine and the sides of the gown hang down like a curtain).

          I think if I had been uncomfortable I could have asked for a woman tech.

          1. Russian In Texas*

            Yeah, the no touching would make a difference I imagine.
            At mammogram, they kind of fling your breasts around, which is already so very weird.

    9. AcademiaNut*

      AFAIK, no, you can’t legally refuse to hire men because most women are more comfortable having a female radiologist.

      1. Russian In Texas*

        I think with OBGYN specifically, there is a market adjustment in play. Due to many women preference for female OBGYN’s, fewer men actually take it as specialization. Sure you can even get hired by a practice, but if all patients request Dr. Susan vs Dr. Simon, why would a male doctor specialize in it?

    10. Annony*

      I don’t think that it would be legal for them to refuse to hire a man but they probably don’t get as many male applicants and the female applicants are more likely to be passionate about women’s health which could be used as part of the hiring criteria.

  59. Taco Bell Job Fair*

    Should I be responsible if a coworker does not show up to work? I was working with my manager Fergus. He gave me the day off after working for him non stop for a week including some overtime. I was out buying groceries. He wanted me to drop everything and come to work. I said no. He chewed me out about this and being disrespectful. He was mad at me that Gina did not show up. Fergus blamed it on me. Why is that my problem? I have no control over what Gina does? Was I being unreasonable?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Nah sounds like Fergus was pissed and took it out on you. Not your responsibility at all.

    2. Meghan R*

      What he’s done is insure that you’ll never pick up a phone call from him when you’re off ever again.

    4. Random Bystander*

      The unreasonable one in this story is Fergus. What are your jurisdiction’s laws about consecutive days without a day off, anyway?

  60. SparklingBlue*

    Something I’ve been thinking about this week–can a company require employees to learn a mission statement?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Why couldn’t they? It sounds annoying but almost certainly legal, unless they’re discriminating against protected classes by doing so.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’m a little confused by the question. Are they stopping them and making them recite it in the halls?

      It’s pretty normal to know your company’s mission statement, and may be a requirement for jobs that are representing the company to external stakeholders.

      1. SparklingBlue*

        To clarify:

        Let’s suppose a company really wanted their employees to know a mission statement–they ask for volunteers to say said mission statement at every major meeting, and employees are asked to write it on self evaluation forms.

        That said, there is no discipline if the employees do not learn it. So why do they make a big deal of employees needing to know it?

        1. Littorally*

          Probably because they want their employees to know what the company’s values and mission are, I guess.

          Sounds mildly annoying but not really something a company can’t/shouldn’t be allowed to do.

    3. OyHiOh*

      We read off our values, mission/vision statement, and a handful of other things at every all staff (twice a month). It’s a bit twee and wastes 5 minutes or so we could spend on something else, but also, nobody can say they don’t know what our values or goals are, because we read them out twice a month.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I don’t see any reason why they couldn’t. And in the case of, eg, a service nonprofit, I can see a lot of valid business reasons why they should.

    5. L. Ron Jeremy*

      Yes. I worked in a FDA regulated space and quoting their mission, quality statement was required. It didn’t need to be verbatim, but you needed quote the bullet points of the statement.

      1. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        Was it useful? I tend to think any solution that says “this would be improved if we just MAKE PEOPLE…” is doomed from the start, but this actually sounds like it might be beneficial.

  61. AnonUSAUser*

    How have you handled/set boundaries with a consultant that acts like your boss instead of a partner? I’ve worked with many consultants in 15+ years but none like this. Any/All ideas welcome.

    1. Pine Tree*

      I’m working through something very similar with a long-time contractor to our organization that has been allowed to run wild with little supervision for years, but we’re now trying to reign them in. We are setting more firm boundaries, and recently had to explain to them that we’re taking a “more active role” in these projects and that we expected to be making the priorities, not them. We had to add in many more “policies and procedures” for their contract outlining, for example, that we needed to be cc’d on any communication with outside partners (previously we’d just hear about discussions later and had to walk back stuff the contractor told those partners).

      It’s tough, they are definitely pushing back. I think it’s starting to work, but prepare yourself for the pushback, and some extremely heavy-handed project management to get them back on track. I basically had to stop caring if they got upset about stuff.

    2. blood orange*

      This is a small suggestion, but I do think it helps to set the rules of engagement if you use some language that makes the actual decision makers seem obvious and matter of fact. For instance, “I’ll take that into consideration and let you know my decision”, “I’m not sure if Sandra will be on board with that direction. Let me discuss with her and I’ll circle back with you on how to move forward”. If it’s more that they’re bossing you around, “That would actually be something that Jerry will handle. Let me know if you have any questions once you connect with him”, “I’m not able to add that to my plate, but Sandra can let you know who could help.”

      If you also take charge on splitting work like you would with a peer, that can help to reset things. For instance “I’d like to handle ABC, so with that in mind could I have you do X and Y?”.

      Good luck!

  62. Custom Waffle Iron*

    A just-for-fun question: What are your stories where either
    1. People understand what you do but demand your knowledge without going through proper channels
    2. People think they understand your job and could do it better than you with zero training
    or
    3. People who just cannot understand your job at all?

    Some friends and I were discussing our experiences with people reacting to our jobs and realized we all have very different experiences. One is in a fairly prestigious professional field (think doctor / lawyer) and routinely has “old friends” contact her for free advice, or sees family dinners derailed because Uncle Trevor wants a quick consult before dessert.

    Meanwhile, I’m in an education field, and many people seem to genuinely believe I do nothing all day, or that they’d be totally qualified because they [read books / graduated high school / think it’d be fun to work that environment].

    The third person has a very specific niche job that no one quite gets without a detailed explanation. It involves about 50% travel, and people tend to assume their work is very glamorous or mysterious.

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’ve noticed two things about how people see programmers:

      1, we perform magic.
      2, our profession has no specialities; magic programmers are 100% fungible.

      1. Russian In Texas*

        Ha!
        BF is a developer, and for many people (especially parental generation) it means: my computer is slow, why?

      2. Chauncy Gardener*

        Reminds of an electrical engineer friend whose neighbors back home were pissed he wouldn’t fix their VCR….

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I am a medical coder (of 18 years experience) and have worked remotely for the last eight years. The WHOOOOOOLE time, I have semi-regularly been contacted by friends-of-friends “Can you get me a job? I would love to sit around and do data entry in my PJs all day like you do lolz.” Biz, I have three damn certifications, that required a whole damn bachelor degree and $300 certification exams and annual continuing education, and the books with the code sets I’m certified in are literally eight inches thick when you stack the hard copies together. If you want to do data entry, this is not the job for you. Block. :P

    3. Sariel*

      I’m a librarian. People have made comments that assume:
      * I get paid to read all day. Nope! That would be nice, but nope.
      * I work with little kids all day. Again, nope! I primarily work with adults (not all female-presenting librarians are children’s librarians)
      * A public library is very quiet and laid-back. Nope! Modern public libraries can be quiet, but often have children’s programming and plenty of general activity. Also, I work with The Public (with all their friendliness/quirks/unfriendliness/issues).

      My SO is a data architect. Family members will say “Oh, he does IT.” Nope — he doesn’t. He designs systems. He doesn’t do things like troubleshoot your PC/keyboard/laptop/phone. So he can’t just “get a job in IT if he’s stressed at work” – it’s not the same kind of job.

    4. whistle*

      I am in camp 3. My family and friends say I do something that is similar to but not actually what I do, and I’ve stopped correcting them. I am in networking groups, and most of my referral partners aren’t sure exactly who to refer to me, but I still get good referrals by mistake. My clients don’t even fully understand what I do unless they actually did it themselves before they hired me. When I talk to other people who do what I do, they all report similar experiences, so I don’t think it’s something I can fix with better messaging.

      1. Sally*

        I am an Instructional Designer. So many people believe they make great training because they went to college and sat through lectures themselves. (Spoiler Alert: they do not make great training. Partly because lectures are actually the least effective way to train pretty much ANYTHING.)
        The other issue I run into is that people who have gone through bad training assume that’s what Instructional Designers make. Not the good ones. The good designers make training you might actually enjoy taking.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          We’re finding out the hard way that people who write lectures for a living (e.g. faculty) are terrible at making training courses. Since I joined a bit late, one of the first things I asked was if we had considered finding someone with actual instructional design experience but they wanted SMEs in the material, not the instruction. As it turns out, we got neither (some of the supposed SMEs are unfamiliar with basics of the material, it’s been a disaster…).

    5. Warrior Princess Xena*

      I’m a CPA (certified public accountant). Everyone thinks the funniest joke is “haha, so you can do my taxes, right?” Nope, I work in audit. I don’t even like doing my own taxes and you want me to do yours? Forget it.

    6. Irish Teacher*

      Oh woah, as a teacher, 2 is just SO common. The funniest one I came across was when I was teaching in this school that has a really bad reputation (to the point that after I left, interviewers for other jobs would say stuff like “tell us about a discipline problem you faced and seeing as you worked in x school, I’m sure you have plenty of choice” or “WOAH! You worked in X school. Our students would be no problem for you, so”) and a distant relative of mine starting telling me how she’d seen on a TV show how to get such students to behave and engage…maybe an hour after complaining about how badly behaved her two actually very well-behaved little girls were because they occasionally argued or talked loudly when she is trying to watch TV or didn’t immediately come when she called them.

      And then there was our government’s reaction to our objections to correcting our own students’ work, due to the conflict of interest and the lack of standardisation, when they misrepresented it (possibly deliberately) as our objecting to continuous assessment, when that wasn’t our argument at all. Most of us were in favour of continuous assessment, so long as it was assessed like the orals and the practicals for subjects like art and music and the research project for Leaving Cert. History, all of which could be considered to be elements of continuous assessment, but are still corrected externally. (I will add that the Irish government has more teachers in it than any other profession or it had the last time I read about this, so this is probably more willfully misunderstanding than genuine misunderstanding.)

      And during covid, we had parents (not of our students, but just people online or contacting the media) complaining that teachers were “being lazy” if they didn’t teach as many live classes as the parents thought they should or that we were being thoughtless and too rigid if we DID do live classes, by parents who were working online and would have preferred their children to use their devices in the evenings when they didn’t need them for work. We had a lot of different needs to try and balance and…I guess understandably, most people were concerned with the needs of their children, but we have to balance the needs of other children in the class too.

      I also got the impression during covid that there are a sizeable minority of people out there who think our role is to babysit children so their parents can work and that we are there for the parents’ benefit rather than the kids’.

      Oh and there are also a sizeable number of people who seem to think we love making up and enforcing rules and that we make unnecessary rules for the fun of making more work for ourselves or something. Enforcing rules is a lot of work. When we introduce a seemingly ridiculous rule, it’s because some kid or number of kids has managed to use the absence of it to do something that could either hurt themselves, hurt somebody else or damage property and we are trying to prevent those things from happening. I’m not saying schools don’t have ridiculous rules sometimes, just that the teachers probably hate enforcing those rules as much as the kids hate having to follow them and they are likely an overreaction to some pretty serious event that made the teachers or admin think “we have to cover our behinds and prevent this from happening again.”

    7. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      Marketing here. It’s super annoying because EVERYONE thinks they’re a marketer now because they’re on Instagram/Tik, etc.

      Like, I don’t go to my dentist, accountant, or auto mechanic and tell him how to do their job and think I know more about their work. Why do people do this to marketing and creative?

  63. Pine Tree*

    Any script advice for a new(ish) coworker who does not listen when briefed on projects, but also gets super defensive/combative if she’s corrected on stuff (usually because she doesn’t understand the project because she didn’t listen)? I’m at my wits end.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh my first thought would be that this person absorbs information better through reading than listening.

      1. Pine Tree*

        Yeah, I’ve broached the subject with my manager, mainly because she also started throwing me under the bus by saying she hadn’t been briefed on a project, when I definitely had.

        I just need something to say to her in the moment that won’t cause her to accuse me of “not valuing her input” when her input is akin to suggesting that we made the teapots out of dog poop instead of chocolate.

        The only thing I can think of is “That’s an interesting idea, I think you should take it to BOSS”

    3. BellyButton*

      I would summarize it in an email so they have it in writing. “As discussed in the meeting today: summary” They may just be getting overloaded with info also by providing it in writing you have demonstrated that the correct info is being shared.

      1. Pine Tree*

        I do usually send her materials to review before the meeting, then resend them after the meeting when it’s clear that she was not listening/grasping the content (it seems like more of a listening issue, she’s not dumb, she just wants to hear herself speak instead of anyone else).

        What I need is what to say to her in the moment when she suggests something ridiculous, but in the past she has gotten very defensive/combative even to a gentle “well, we’re not quite at that point yet…” or “I don’t know if that’s the right approach to this issue…”

        1. NaoNao*

          I’d consider one of two approaches:

          “Sounds great Warbelina! Go ahead and research that approach and write up a proposal for consideration!” Basically toss the conversational ball back to her with a plausible deniability of “we did take it seriously!”

          “Hm, that’s an idea. I’ll note that in the minutes.” Write it down or jot it down: “warbelina’s notes: “Can we fry eggs on car hood?” Basically note it, note that it was her ridic idea but do nothing about it. Just acknowledge the “bid for attention” but not much else.

          1. Pine Tree*

            Thank you, these are good suggestions. I’m definitely going to try them at our next meeting. Hopefully we can avoid her getting defensive by just entirely avoiding discussing whether it’s a stupid suggestion or not.

            1. SofiaDeo*

              IDK about asking her to research crazy ideas; she may start doing that to the exclusion of real work.

              1. Pine Tree*

                She might, but I feel like that’s our bosses’ problem. I don’t think I’m going to be able to fix her not listening problem, or the crazy ideas problem. I just need coping mechanisms to avoid her getting confrontational and adversarial (or get out of the conversation when it happens).

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Tell her to bring either copies of what you sent her or a notebook, and to take notes on your discussion. Engaging more senses – in this case hearing and tactile – can help with memory. And if she is not taking notes (possibly not listening) tell her you will wait for her to write this down. See if that helps.

  64. DivergentStitches*

    I feel like I’m purposely being excluded by my company’s disability inclusion employee resource group :(

    • Spring 2021 – I started working, joined the disability employee resource group planning committee immediately, introduced myself as an autistic, background in hiring/recruiting, happy to help with any disability employment initiative as it’s my passion as an advocate, especially neurodiversity. Planning group had monthly meetings that I was included in.
    • They were planning an initiative to hire a group of neurodiverse employees and said I could be involved in the planning of that, happy to have me, my experience would be very useful, etc.
    • No updates through 2021, said it was taking longer than expected, etc.
    • Meeting invites to planning group did not come in 2022, didn’t notice as was busy, etc.
    • Spring 2022, I see in the newsletter that the hiring initiative was all done, the people were hired, everything went great, etc.
    • I emailed the head of the group asking what had happened, she said oops you were accidentally dropped off of the email distro for the meetings for 2022. I expressed disappointment. Asked about being added to the Teams channel for the resource group, she said she would get me added. This never happened.
    • October 2022, new newsletter talking about an employee panel for neurodiversity inclusion at my company. That’s awesome! I emailed the guy who sent the newsletter expressing how I thought it was awesome and asking how I could be more involved in helping to plan these events. No response
    • Panel happened last week, I didn’t get a chance to view it at the time, now I am viewing the replay. They have one neurodiverse employee on the panel and one mom of a neurodiverse person on the panel.

    1. WellRed*

      Well first I’m sorry this happened. Is the person who sent the newsletter on this committee or responsibile for the panel in any way? Otherwise, though, I’d mention this to head of HR or chief of all things committees(not just the head if this particular group) and express your concerns and exclusion. It’s inexcusable at this point.

  65. Meghan R*

    This is mostly a rant, but y’all. I’m so done with this student worker of mine. He works one day a week and will graduate in the spring, but he’s so annoying that I actually try to avoid being around him when he’s on shift. I’ll ask him to do something (as his boss) and he’ll question everything about it. And then go to my boss to get those answers (note, my boss is male).

    The questions he’s been asking are not relevant and pedantic. Like, I’ll ask him to go put something away in spot A and he’ll be like, “is spot A the best spot? What about putting it in spot B?” and then go to talk my boss about that. Its annoying, and feels slightly misogynic. Thing is, the kid *is* genuinely bright, just annoying as hell. Tragically, I have zero power to fire him.

    Basically, I’m counting down the days until I don’t have to see his stupid face anymore. (I did have a friend recommend that I make a Christmas count down ring chain as a countdown until he leaves, but I think I’d get questions about that in my office)

    1. Purple Jello*

      Ugh. Does your boss shut him down, send him back to you, or answer his questions? Ideally he’d say to just do whatever you told him.

      1. Meghan R*

        Bit of both, really. He’ll answer the student’s questions, but the answer will always pair up with mine (cause, guess what, my boss and I discussed it beforehand!).

        The thing that makes it difficult with this particular student vs other workers is that he was working as a student worker before I was hired, so the bad habits have already been ingrained. Every other student worker I’ve had a hand in hiring and developing, so I’m much more comfortable calling them out on stuff.

        1. WellRed*

          There’s no reason to treat him any different than the other student workers. When he questions you, can you say, “ please just put it in place A, thx!”

    2. Annony*

      I think you should have the ring chain. Put it right by your door at home so that you can tear one off as you walk in the door.

      On a more practical note, are there any time consuming tasks you can give him to keep him out of your hair? Or ones that you can just give him free reign on without risk that he can screw something up? Like reorganizing the file cabinet or something? Or making a document that you can simply not use if he screws it up?

    3. Calamity Janine*

      this may be because i’m a bit of a brat, but i think that this is more than a little misogynistic and you are actually in a perfect position to challenge him on this – and that doing so will likely be the most valuable thing he learns as a student worker.

      “i have noticed that whenever i ask you to do something, as your boss, you question it and quibble with it, and then go ask my boss about it. i cannot help but notice that my boss is male, you are male, and i am not. though you may not intend for it to be so, this is a pattern that, if you keep it up, will severely impact your future career. so, let’s talk about this. why do you feel the need to constantly question what i state, especially with off-topic information?”

      he may splutter in circles for a bit. he may get defensive. but drive home the point that right now, as a student worker, he has training wheels on. if you let him continue in bad habits that will hurt his career, you would not be treating him correctly. so that’s why you’re bringing it up now. this is his chance to unlearn that behavior before he sabotages his career. he’ll probably kneejerk about how it’s nothing to do with sexism, to which you can simply go, “great! i’m glad we both agree that misogyny has no place in the workplace. however, you’re still exhibiting a lot of behavior that will get you characterized as a bad employee who is insubordinate and should not be hired, or worse, should be immediately fired. constantly questioning your boss’s orders and wasting time quibbling about off-topic things is not how good work gets done. let’s make sure this bad habit stops here.”

      you are benevolently pointing out how he is going to sabotage himself. you can even pay him a compliment – something like “you are so genuinely bright, i would hate for you to waste your time and sabotage your career with bad habits, but that’s what this is going to do”. if he’s actually clever, he will realize he’s made a major whoopsie, and will immediately adjust… and probably thank you in fifteen years for setting him straight instead of stepping back to let him crash and burn.

      if it really is him being motivated by petty bigotry, then odds are good he’ll throw a massive strop that will be so egregious of a tantrum that everyone will now see he is being a real jerk. and he’ll get consequences for that accordingly! (far more than you can enact on your own.)

      1. irene adler*

        I like this! IF nothing else, let’s get it on the table as to what his issue is with Meghan R.

        It’s not normal to constantly bring things to the boss like this. He should not come away with the notion that this is how to deal with instructions he takes issue with.

        I have to wonder if the boss is tolerating those same irrelevant and pedantic questions asked of Meghan R. Boss should be shutting that down- and redirecting him back to Meghan R-with instruction to do what she directs.

      3. All the Bees*

        THIS. I had a former boss (retired now) who used to do this with our student employees. tbf, it wasn’t usually a problem, because we screened them pretty well at hiring and rarely hired dudes like this, but sometimes we had one who was hired by someone else (say, a faculty member hired a student for a project, but we had joint supervision). If my boss noticed this kind of attitude, he would tell them something along the lines of “You’ll be heading off to Silicon Valley soon, and this particular behavior [not addressing women in meetings, being condescending to older female faculty–some of whom were doing groundbreaking STEM research IN THE 1970s, etc.] isn’t going to fly there.” That usually caught their attention.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I mean, “Yes, spot A is the best spot, because that is where I want it to go and as your supervisor that is why I am telling you to put it there. This is not a collaborative task and you are not in the decision-making chain on this.”

      I’m sympathetic to you, really. I had a law student this summer with whom I had to have a very uncomfortable talk about deadlines (“when I say on Tuesday that I want something in a few days, I don’t mean after the weekend, so if you were having trouble meeting that deadline, you should have come to me for direction, not decided on a new due date on your own”) and basic, basic communication (“when you leave at noon on Friday and don’t plan to come back, you need to tell me or at least tell my assistant”). But you’re doing him a favor if you get him to understand what his role is and where his decision-making limits are.

      1. ILoveCoffee*

        yup – but I’d keep it more simple!

        “Are you sure A is the best spot?” “Yes” “But…” “This isn’t a discussion. It’s where it needs to go” and walk away
        Then if he goes to your boss, your boss should respond in a very confused manner as to why he’s even asking and say “why are you asking me, Meghan is the one who deals with that”

        I’m a professor so I know your pain…

    5. Educator*

      Questioning everything serves students well in many college classrooms–and can have disastrous results as they move into entry-level jobs.

      In addition to noting the appearance of misogyny, I would recommend explicitly calling out that difference. Something like, “I’ve noticed that you question a lot of my instructions. I know that asking questions and not taking things for granted is really an asset in many classes and academic environments. But in the work world, I would recommend a different strategy. There are some basic tasks that we just need to get done, and it is not helpful to question every step. For example, when I ask you to put a book away, just do it. Instead, you want to save your curiosity and creative thinking for when it will be most helpful to your company and those around you. For example, when I ask you to come up with a new filing system, that would be a great time to ask about the reasoning behind the old one and think about how it could be improved. But you want to ask questions when they will really help your organization, not about everything, or you will use up the capital you need to make changes when it matters to you.

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      *slightly misogynistic*?
      I’m thinking maybe lots misogynistic
      Totally echo all the comments above that suggest calling this dude out on it

  66. Purple Jello*

    Exit Interviews: should departing employees participate?

    Each time I’ve left a company since I knew what an exit interview was, I said I wouldn’t bother explaining anything, but then I go and talk each time, just hoping that it would make a difference to my colleagues left behind.

    Is this just a thing for HR departments to do because they think they should, or it’s required for government contractors or something?

    Do you think exit interviews ever make a difference, other than possibly putting the exiting employee on a black list?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Well for government contractors, part of the exit interview is probably stressing things like security and confidentiality that last beyond the term of employment. Just because you no longer work for Llama Dynamics doesn’t mean you can tell anyone and everyone the formula for stealth wool.

      If by “make a difference” you mean “get the terrible VP fired”, then I don’t know. Maybe in extreme cases?

      Companies that genuinely do want to increase retention and employee satisfaction will do exit interviews and compile the information. Now, maybe senior management will act on it, or maybe they will just do this for lip service but otherwise turn a blind eye.

      But having been HR-adjacent in the past, I can tell that there is at least one large employer that doesn’t routinely put people on a black list after exit interview.

    2. irene adler*

      IF the company is interested in employee viewpoints, why don’t they solicit them regularly instead of waiting until they exit?

      I don’t think they make a bit of difference-unless a legal or safety issue with dire ramifications to the immediate future of the company presents itself during the exit interview. And that almost never happens.

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      I’ve seen it happen. HR saves up then boom shots fired. “Well we’ve had 12 people in the last 2 years leave citing our PTO policies so implementing this new change will help retention…” gives a lot more weight to saying yo we need to change this.

    4. AnonUSAUser*

      I chose not to participate in the exit interview (online survey only). My supervisors should have known why I was leaving (and why 75% of my former team left within 10 months of each other). Nothing changed when people left so why would I expect my answers to be the difference.

    5. Annony*

      I think there can be value if it is something they won’t take personally like salary, PTO policy, unclear who was responsible for tasks or something like that. If enough people leave citing the same thing it can change things. If it is deep rooted dysfunction, I wouldn’t try though.

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      I do exit interviews in my small young company and it is super helpful to hear why people are leaving! We have made changes based on that input. So thank you!

      I do know some places it’s just not worth it though, so YMMV. And you don’t want to burn a bridge if you’re not sure.

  67. Bridie*

    How do I tell my references that I changed my mind about job searching? After thinking about it for a long time, I decided that I wanted to try teaching English abroad. This would be a total career change and my references had to write actual letters for me. However, after an interview for one of these positions, I realized that I actually don’t want to do it. I feel like I need to let me references know because they already invested time into my search, and were excited for me. But I’m a little embarrassed because it looks like I didn’t know what I was getting into, when in reality, I knew perfectly well and was trying to convince myself that I wanted it. Now I know that I don’t, but I don’t know how to walk back my idealistic declarations that I wanted to explore teaching as a career, thought my path led abroad, etc. which I thought was true when I asked them to write letters. How much do I need to explain myself?

    1. whistle*

      I think you can be matter-of-fact and fairly brief in regards to “explaining yourself”. If these are reasonable people who want the best for you, they will understand that life changes happen and want you to succeed in whatever path you take. They are unlikely to think you were not serious when you originally asked.

    2. Educator*

      I am a frequent reference letter writer–and someone who knows how complicated the decisions to teach or not teach can be!

      I would recommend starting with a little internal reflection before you go back to your recommenders. What were the things that called you to teach abroad in the first place? If that is not the right path for you, what other professional or personal goals will help you satisfy that calling? Once you have some ideas for your next steps, do more research–informational interviews, professional groups, etc. Once you feel confident in your new plan, then I would go back to your recommenders, thank them profusely for their support, and briefly describe how your goals have evolved. That will come across as a lot more intentional than “I decided not to do it after all.”

      And don’t worry–this happens all the time, and it is much, much better to change your mind at the interview stage than during the first week of term!

  68. Charlotte Lucas*

    But when making appointments, that is a case where the patient is asked if it’s OK for a member of a different gender provides the care.

  69. AnotherLibrarian*

    I’m working on putting together a roundtable discussion for a conference aimed at new people in the field of archives with a focus on how to get hired. What questions would be good for the panel to address?

    1. Hatchet*

      I would think anything interview/hiring related – what would make an average candidate stand out? what do they like to see at interviews? I also think of those new to the professional world and professional norms that not everyone would know about… so maybe a question to the panel along the lines of “what’s something you wish your new hires knew?”.

  70. Chirpy*

    I desperately need a new job, because I don’t make enough money to cover all my bills (rent doubled this year), several of my coworkers are terrible and giving me panic attacks, and I really need to see a doctor for several issues but can’t afford it, but even looking at job postings is also giving me panic attacks as I have a really hodgepodge collection of qualifications and experience and I absolutely hate retail, which is where I currently am because several of the things I’m qualified for are very niche, and I’m not good at interviewing and have no references anymore (all died, moved, or treated me like crap when I worked there so I don’t want to ask). Clearly my anxiety is getting worse but I can’t afford a therapist (I’ve looked for cheap ones in the area and they’re full, and online ones start at $60 which is too expensive). My health insurance covers literally nothing. I don’t have family or friends who are of any help in finding a job. I’m just stuck.

    1. NaoNao*

      Some possibles to get your through for now:

      –Can you do Uber, Lyft, DoorDash, etc? Also it’s not much money but “Rev” transcription allowed me to get a new skill and earn small pocket money between jobs.

      –Roomster if you need a roommate or a new situation. Also “Next Door” is a relatively friendly place you can find services.

      –“7 cups of tea” or similar phone based therapy app, some are free or very inexpensive

      –Try not to worry about references. Many employers merely check employment verification, and ask for references as a check-box item but don’t call. It’s not a guarantee, but putting coworkers or other “friendlies” from previous jobs is totally acceptable. You can also use pastors, teachers, neighbors, etc at least just to have someone’s name to write down. Things have shifted a bit in this market and needing “proactive” references is not so much of a concern any more. Also on Reddit there’s a subReddit called “be my reference”–a Google search might pull it up. It’s people who specifically volunteer to act as faux references for people who are in your situation. Depending on your comfort level of using such devices, it could set your mind at ease as a “Plan B”

      –State and federal aid or non profits There are many smaller programs that help with heating, utilities, work/interview outfits, resumes, career advice and more.

      1. Chirpy*

        Thanks. I somehow make too much money to qualify for any aid, and I really do not do well with random roommates (last roommate was a friend and it was still stressful, also nobody wants to be roommates in their 30s-40s). I do live in an income-restricted apartment, which is still only slightly cheaper than market rate.

        Uber/Lyft/Doordash is not an option for me, I do not feel comfortable using them as a woman, let alone driving for them unfortunately. I also do not have a pastor/church (long story…) which is why I’m completely stuck on references, the organizations I volunteer with aren’t really set up in a way where there’s a clear person who could vouch for my work.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Well, that’s a rough batch of problems.

      What about temp work? A hodgepodge of skills could be a benefit in that case, since you could fill in for a variety of roles. Plus, you don’t have to apply to individual jobs, the agency places you (I think).

      1. Chirpy*

        The reason I’ve stayed at this job as long as I have is because it’s at least predictable and full-time. Temp work isn’t a good idea from what I’ve heard from people who’ve done it, it’s very tenuous.

    4. Pocket Mouse*

      People who moved can still be references for you! Don’t write them off without checking in with them.

      1. Chirpy*

        I can’t find them, is the problem. The person who would likely be my best reference doesn’t even do email or cell phones, let alone Facebook or LinkedIn or anything, and while I could maybe track him down via his wife’s Facebook it’s going to be awkward for anyone to contact him as a reference.

  71. Chapelhill*

    Thoughts on how to possibly backtrack on turning down a promotion? I was pretty vocal, in a diplomatic way, that the raise on offer wasn’t enough for the changes to my job and recently declined the offer on that basis. My boss was bummed but understood, and my decision was relayed further up the management chain, with the rumor being that there’s going to be an external new hire. I didn’t turn the job down lightly, and felt that neither option was the right one, so it was a case of ‘what is the least worst option’. Since then I’ve had some medical news that will result in huge medical bills for my family and the raise would make a dent in these. I still don’t *want* to take the promotion, but there’s more of a personal incentive to do it now.

    So how do I revisit it with my boss when I was pretty detailed about why I wouldn’t take it and the case is closed? My reasons sounded a little ‘moral high ground’ at the time so this would be a total 180, and also my ego is making me dread actually talking to him about it. I’m not sure how far along they are in planning for a new hire, and there’s also the possibility that they don’t want me to take the promotion now I’ve made my feelings clear on it. Is there a good way to open this up again and not embarrass myself in the process? For context my relationship with my boss can be challenging at times due to working styles but as people we get along pretty well.

    1. blood orange*

      When you say you don’t want to take the promotion, is it because of the role and it’s duties, or solely because of the pay? If it was also because of the role and duties, that’s a tougher back track!

      If it was just the pay, I’m concerned that you’re saying it was ‘moral high ground’ and that your relationship with your boss can be challenging. That makes it sound as though you might have rubbed them the wrong way. If you don’t think that’s the case, and you were just firm that the pay was a problem, I don’t think it can hurt to ask.

      Could you broach it that you want to circle back with him since the position isn’t filled, explain that you really struggled with turning it down, and wanted to see if you could talk further with him about the role?

      1. Chapelhill*

        It was purely the pay…or lack of…that was the reason for not accepting the offer. I framed it in a way that the lack of a sufficient pay incentive was disappointing and that anyone would struggle to accept all this extra work with a negligible increase in compensation. Whilst I was diplomatic and the meeting remained cordial I suppose there was an air of ‘I’m right and you’re wrong’ to my reasoning, which is where my analogy of moral high ground came into it. Honestly it would pain me to revisit it at all, not least because I do think the promotion warrants a bigger raise, but finances are dictating what I can and can’t do. I can’t really imagine how to reopen the conversation though!

  72. Salary range bandit*

    Does anybody know if NLRA protections apply to salary range data? During company-wide annual reviews, we’re provided with our salary, along with the minimum and maximum for our job tier. A compilation of those ranges for all tiers was posted to an internal group chat, and subsequently removed (not by whomever posted it, so it was management/IT). I’m pretty sure they can tell us we can’t use their equipment (computers, chat program, etc.) for wage discussions, but can they stop us discussing those ranges?

  73. HigherEdWoes*

    I work in higher ed as a coordinator. The team leaders of the small department I work for did a presentation about one of our processes– a process that the other coordinator and I have the most hands on. We were not included in the presentation physically. And on the page of the power point (that was sent to the entire team to see right beforehand) we are not mentioned on the team page. This isn’t the first time we’ve been basically cast aside like we’re afterthoughts on the team. Are the other coordinator and I justified about being upset over this? How should this be handled?

    1. ferrina*

      Depends on a lot of things. If you were more junior, they may just be including the most senior staff. But if you are in charge of a major aspect of the process and taking on highly skilled work/making judgement calls, then yes, that’s a pretty big oversight.

      That said, there’s not much you can do. You can ask to be included as a point of contact “in case anyone has questions”. The idea is to position it as a way to streamline work (rather than give you credit where credit is due). Unfortunately, in these cases you’ll usually be scolded if you ask for credit where credit is due, so I’ve found it more effective to position it as a favor to other people. It’s politics, and it sucks.

  74. Nack*

    Looking for advice on whether or not it would be appropriate to ask for a raise!

    My husband started a job as the executive director at a church about 6 months ago. Then about 2 months ago, both the head pastor and the music director were let go. (There were 7 staff total, now down to 5.) My husband has the necessary skills to do the music director job and he already volunteered on the music team 2-3x a month, so naturally he was tapped to pick up this person’s responsibilities. This role is part time, about 40 hours/month. He hasn’t heard any talk about hiring a new person for this role (though he is going to ask what the plan is). So as far as we know, the assumption is that he will take on the extra work as part of his current role.

    There are a few significant changes: the music role now involves managing volunteers, where as his other role was primarily project based. And it affects his work hours- he now has to be part of the music team every Sunday (the current music volunteers can’t make a full band without him). So far we’ve had to come back early from a previously-approved vacation last month, and we will have to change our thanksgiving plans to make sure he’s there on that Sunday.

    I know 6 months in is usually quite soon to ask for a raise, but do the circumstances change that in this case? He’s salaried, not hourly. To me, the limitations it puts on our personal time (being available every Sunday) and the fact that he’s working 25% more hours every month makes me think this could be a reasonable ask.

    PS: both of us have had pretty non-traditional careers up until now so this is new territory for us! And I realize churches don’t always follow all the “rules” of other workplaces, but I’d still welcome perspective of those employed by churches, and those not!

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Not my experience, but a friend had a very similar situation. They asked for and got the raise!

    2. LizB*

      If he’s the executive director, shouldn’t he be the one (or part of a group) to start the hiring process for new high level staff?

      1. Nack*

        Not to undercut my husband in any way, but I think the title conveys something higher up than what he does. His job is more along the lines of project management. He oversees various programs, management of the buildings, handles some admin stuff and supports other staff. He doesn’t have hire/fire power or make big directional/visionary decisions.

        Also to clarify, I did say above that there around 5 staff but the church is part of a a local group of churches that have over 2000 members and maybe 40 staff total? So our church is smaller but part of a larger local network. Things like hiring are done by the leadership on the larger level.

    3. ferrina*

      I’d ask for a raise. This is a significant change in responsibility. Start the conversation by asking what the long term plan is and state clearly that he’s happy to take it on, but due to the impact on his personal life, he’ll need to ask for more compensation.

      That said, most churches are notoriously terrible about paying their pastors/staff. It’s the same mentality as around teachers- you should do it for love of the job! are you really putting a value how you take care of a person’s soul?
      I’ve known several pastors that burned out this way. Hopefully your church is better about compensating staff. Good luck!

      1. Annony*

        I think this is a good idea. Establish that this isn’t just temporary and then ask for a raise to reflect the increased work load. Or push for it to be temporary if he really doesn’t want to do this long term.

    4. Morning reader*

      I’m not seeing this as a raise situation but more as an additional part time job situation. Could he fill out the time card (or whatever) as this part time employee would have, as though assuming he would be paid for those extra hours? If they seem to not want to pay him for these hours, respond with a query as to when they are hiring someone? If he’s hourly, would he not get overtime for this anyway? If he’s salaried but this is not his job, wouldn’t that be volunteering when he’s already a paid employee, and therefore a labor law violation? It may not work, but, an attitude of“of course I’ll be paid for this, otherwise we run counter to the law,” might make some progress.

      1. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

        Yes, I was looking at it this way too. It might be a good opening for his conversation: “can you help me understand whether this role will be compensated as a) a raise or b) a temporary additional payment until a new music director is hired?” That might help anchor the request in terms of “compensation is required” instead of leaving the board(?) to answer the question of whether compensation is required.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Yes, it’s reasonable to bring up what the long-term plans are, and ask for a raise if they aren’t looking to hire.

  75. Baby fever*

    Hi! I’m hoping for some advice on making sure one of my reports respects the other’s boundaries after the birth of his first child.

    I have been managing Carol (60s) and Adam (30s) for about 2 years (my first managerial role), and we are on a wider team of about 10. We are all fairly close. Adam and his wife just had their first child this week and he is now on leave. The baby was born a month early due to complications with the pregnancy, but both mother and baby are now doing well. Our team is putting together a gift basket for the new family, which Carol and I are organizing.

    She is hoping that he will let us meet the baby when we drop off the basket in a week or two. Over IM, I said that I didn’t think we should impose and we could just drop it off, to which she replied “no way!!! I’m imposing”. I said they would be very tired, and she replied saying women have babies all the time and that 2 weeks is more than enough time, but that she would ask. I don’t actually know how open Adam and his wife would be, but 2 weeks seems super early to me especially given the circumstances. Also, I feel like Carol is coming off as really entitled with her desire to see the baby.

    What’s the best course of action here? Should I just shut Carol down entirely and drop the basket off myself? Give Adam a heads up but make it clear there’s no pressure? Just let her ask him?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh geez you have to shut down Carol. Hard.

      2 weeks after a 1-month-premature birth is NOT the time for visitors.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yep. Do not let her go with you when you drop off the basket. Use a polite fiction if you need to since Carol doesn’t seem like she’s responding to logic and might well agree not to ask but then ask anyway when you’re at their door.

      2. Baby fever*

        Thanks for the reply. I’m definitely going to drop it off alone, and tell her why. In all honesty I am a bit nervous for that conversation because I’ve never had to reprimand either of my reports and am a bit scared of confrontation, but she needs to leave the new parents alone.

    2. I should really pick a name*

      I would say shut Carol down entirely and explain why. That might give her a sense of how over the line she’s gone.
      If Carol had not been so pushy, I might suggest asking Adam if he’d be okay with it.

      It’s true, some parents would be fine with this, but it’s not on Carol to decide that.

    3. ferrina*

      omg, you need to shut Carol down! She needs to be kind and considerate to Adam, not “I’m imposing!” If she can’t do that, she doesn’t get to drop off the gift basket.

      The “women have babies all the time” is BS. People also break bones all the time- doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt! And every woman’s experience is different- some will be thrilled to show off their baby, some will want space. Oh, and if Carol has so much as a sniffle, she doesn’t drop off the gift. Premie babies are often more inclined toward health complications (and heck, even if the baby wasn’t a premie, that’s a young baby!). My MIL showed up to meet my 1-week old with a cough and claimed “it’s chronic, it’s fine.” Spoiler alert: it wasn’t chronic, and it wasn’t fine. She ended up going to urgent care the next day, and went back home after that where she was sick for two weeks. I did not let her within 10 ft of the baby when I heard her first cough. She was mad and told me I was overprotective, but I didn’t care. My baby came first (we did not get sick, thankfully). Don’t put Adam in a position where he has to choose between his baby and his boss (or even if he thinks you condone Carol’s behavior).

      I’d reach out to Adam and gently ask if he’s letting people meet the baby, or if he’d like to do a lesser contact gift drop-off. Be very clear that it’s up to him and his wife, and that your first priority is his comfort. See what he says.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Yes. Carol does not get to decide whether parents of a newborn need to display their offspring on demand.

        I’d find a way to drop that basket off myself because I “just happened to be heading that way.”

      2. SimonTheGreyWarden*

        This. My baby was just under a month early and I would have been absolutely rabid if someone from my husband’s work pushed to see my baby at 2 weeks old. It may seem like an overreaction but I was in the midst of serious PPD/PPA and my son was colicky so that compounded the issues. Someone I didn’t have a relationship with wanting to see my vulnerable preemie baby? Hell to the no.

    4. GythaOgden*

      Make it clear by your tone of voice that this is your decision as a manager, and that this is still a work issue, not a social one.

      1. Unkempt Flatware*

        Yes, exactly. “No, I’m telling you that you will not impose by doing anything other than drop it off. This isn’t up for discussion.”

    5. cmcinnyc*

      Shut. Her. Down. And not with a lot of softening! My baby had a complication–an emergency–after we were already home. She was fine, but in the 72 hours of dealing with that one of my friends pushed in and to see the baby and then me and it changed our relationship permanently. And with a coworker!?!?!? Carol has zero standing to impose. Zero. Do not make a very tired, stressed dad throw himself between his pushy, clueless coworker and his even more tired and stressed wife and baby!

      1. cmcinnyc*

        and PS Adam’s wife doesn’t work for you. Neither does the baby. Women and babies are not community property.

        I kind of want to slap Carol.

        1. Baby fever*

          Agreed, I can’t imagine Adam’s wife would be thrilled for his coworker to randomly show up wanting to meet the baby. Carol can be a bit boomer-ish at times but I’ve never seen her never this outright entitled. The more I think about it the more upset I get over her attitude.

    6. ThursdaysGeek*

      Babies, especially premature ones, can have a fragile immune system. That’s a good point to make when you tell Carol that you ended up delivering the basket yourself.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Yeah, I was a little earlier than this baby, but my immune system didn’t really do anything at 2 weeks. Honestly, even at 2 decades, it’s still pretty terrible. Carol is being a jerk.

    7. By Golly*

      I think it depends a lot on the relationships you have on your team. My manager and a coworker coming to meet my first child is a precious memory that made me feel supported and that my role as a parent would be supported on my team, but we are close, and I’m the mother (not the father), which I do feel makes a difference here. Some considerations: Does Adam’s wife have relationships with people on your team? Do you know how they are handling visits more generally (family, personal friends)? It is cold and flu season, so especially with a preemie, they may really not be having any visitors in, and this would be an easy out. (in fact, I might offer that to them–“We are coming to drop of the basket, and would be delighted to chat and meet little Agnes, but also understand that with cold and flu season that might not work for you.” And then they can just say “yeah, please leave the basket on the doorstep” or whatever.)

      1. JustaTech*

        Cold and flu and RSV and COVID season. I wouldn’t be surprised if Adam and his wife had a flat “no visitors” policy for the first month or two, just for that reason.

        There are some people who have this weird entitlement to other people’s babies, like everyone should be perfectly happy to hand over their precious infant.

      2. Annony*

        I think that it would be better to default to leaving it on the porch. “We are coming to drop of the basket and will leave it on the porch. Let us know when you are up to having visitors. We would love to come back to meet little Agnes!” That way they can passively decline a visit by just thanking everyone for the basket and not following up with an invitation.

        1. WellRed*

          This. I had a coworker tell me once that even a friendly knock at the door was often too much. Just drop the basket and run. Or mail it.

    9. Morning reader*

      Give Adam a heads up so that he has his “no” ready when she asks. Then back him up. (Pretty sure a 2-week-old is not “receiving guests” yet.) (Going to get my TDAP vaccination update so I might be able to meet relative’s baby at Christmas. Also, a friend’s grand baby has covid right now.) maybe 60ish Carol doesn’t have friends with grandkids yet but the rules are different nowadays, have been since before covid. It may be her first encounter with pushback on this attitude but it won’t be her last.

    10. Maggie*

      I would be fuming if my husbands coworker got pushy about seeing my preemie when I was two weeks post partum. I would definitely shut it down hard. No one needs to drop it off, order online and have it delivered.

    11. Policy Wonk*

      Ask Adam.

      Personally, I think Carol is out of line. But I don’t know the relationship between the two, so am not really in a position to judge. Tell Adam you have a gift basket you would like to drop off. Note Carol wants to come with to see the baby, but you are not sure if Adam and family are ready for visitors, and ask his preference. I would definitely not have Carol ask him.

      With a premature baby they are probably going to say no visitors – I would imagine their doctor may even recommend against it given we are in the beginning of cold and flu season.

    12. Not A Manager*

      Drop off the basket by yourself. Mention to Carol afterward that you realized you would be passing by the house so it made sense to just drop it then.

    13. Random Bystander*

      Best course of action: shut Carol down entirely, and tell her why. Contact Adam to ask how he would prefer to receive the basket (contact/no-contact).

      Yes, Carol is really entitled (not just coming off that way).

      I had a baby at 35 weeks and he spent a week post-birth in the hospital. Two weeks after the birth, someone coming to my house to “see the baby” would be met with me and baby in closed-off bedroom with locked door. Only my mom (who came to do laundry and such) was actually a welcome visitor.

      1. Baby fever*

        Thanks for the reply. I thought her response was absolutely bonkers when I first read it but thought I might be overreacting because I know next to nothing about babies and childbirth, good to see that I’m not. I hope your little one is doing well!

    14. Rick Tq*

      Carol wants to impose on a new mother with a premature baby?!!!!

      Not only no, but “Carol, if you visit them without an invitation first you will be fired for insubordination” No.

      Also, boot Carol of the basket project.

      1. I should really pick a name*

        Fired for insubordination is a bit much.
        Baby Fever’s authority extends to this gift drop. What Carol does on her own is Carol’s business.

    16. fhqwhgads*

      Carol is being an ass. I went through this fairly recently, and when we talked the pediatrician about visitors, she said if at all possible, no one who wouldn’t be involved in her day-to-day care for the first 30 days. And anyone who saw the baby needed to be current on TDAP, MMR, flu shot and covid shots and boosters. Yes, even to just drop something off and say a quick hi (if they’re going near the baby).

      So not only is Carol being an ass openly saying she’d impose, she’s also ignoring the baby’s non-existant immune system, potential recommendations from the baby’s doctors, and the fact that 2 weeks in both parents have probably had almost no sleep. Explaining all that to Carol would probably feel like overkill, which goes to show just how much of an ass she’s being. None of this is her call. If I were Adam’s spouse and Carol knocked at the door or rang the bell, I’d stand behind the peep-hole and say “just leave it on the porch please”and wouldn’t let her in the door. If Carol were pushy, I’d probably walk away from the door. I would not have the energy for trying to be nice to her about it. It’s all easier if Carol knows inadvance she’s being an ass.
      Sorry I’m extra salty about this sort of thing.

  76. Honorarium Quandary*

    I’m curious about other people’s experiences with lecture honorariums.

    I am not an academic but provide a custom service as an independent contractor/small business that is billed on a per-piece/project basis to a university.

    The development office asked me to give a hands on lecture and demonstration to the board of directors for fundraising purposes.

    I declined: rather than treat the presentation as a billable hours project, I would be paid an honorarium, and the amount offered ($150) was far too low once preparation, travel, and onsite time were factored in.

    What would your expectations be for this type of undertaking?

    1. Jessica*

      Higher ed here. I think there are all kinds of factors–market rates in whatever your field is, budget that universities actually have available, people’s understanding of whatever norms exist–but it doesn’t really matter. You get to set your rates. Calling it an “honorarium” doesn’t change the fact that you’re exchanging labor for money here. Tell them straight up that you’d need the honorarium to be X if they’re covering your travel expenses or Y if they’re not. There are multiple possibilities of how they’ll respond but at least one of them is “oh, please hold while we go find some more money.”

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Would there be any real potential gain for you besides the $150? Is getting to meet and lecture those board of directors likely to lead to further work for you? That’s a heck of a networkable moment. Not to mention if the board decides from your demo they want to hire you regularly. But do you need/want to expand to more clients now anyway?

      My understanding is an honorarium says we appreciate your time and recognize you’re giving up your own time/effort to do this. It’s not meant to be a equivalent of a billable hour rate.

    3. Original poster*

      I’ve been working on projects for this university for a number of years. While I agree from a networking perspective that it would be beneficial, they’ve been reliably late in paying invoices, and always force me to pay ($25) for parking when I come for site visits, so they don’t have a lot of goodwill banked. While they’ve been a steady client, I’m really burned out of providing time intensive services for “exposure.”

    4. Annony*

      I think that an honorarium makes a lot more sense when the person receiving it is in academia. Giving a guest lecture can help them look good to their home university, provide networking opportunities and generally doesn’t require much extra prep work since most can recycle the bulk of the presentation from previous lectures. In your case, it just isn’t worth it and they failed to recognize that since you aren’t in academia, the calculation is different. If they really wanted the presentation, they would pay you based on the amount of work they are asking rather than token amount.

      1. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        Yes, that’s right. We have a two-track system here where academics from other institutions are not paid for guest lectures/ presentations (we may pay travel & take them out to lunch but it’s assumed that they can do prep work etc. as part of the research for which their own institution pays them a salary, so it’s not unpaid labour), but industry professionals are paid at the going rate (in my field this is usually freelance writers who make most of their living from speaking fees etc). Sounds like Quandary would fall under the second category.

  77. My name is Tim Kono*

    Would definitely give Adam heads up and try to dissuade Carol. I’m currently expecting my first baby and am part of various Reddit groups and there’s lots of concern about winter flu/RSV etc going around. Especially as Adam’s baby was born quite early. It would be horrible if the baby got sick because of Carol’s actions.

  78. JobSeeker*

    Looking for advice on reentering the job market after a moderately lengthy bout of unemployment. I lost my job as a software developer a year and a half ago and have not worked since. To make a long story short, I have a physical disability that’s been getting steadily worse over the last several years, with very little that can be done to stop it. The stress of that, plus the pandemic, led to performance issues on my part that ultimately got me fired mid 2021. I had enough money saved and enough support from family/friends that I decided it made more sense to stay out of the job market for a bit while I got my physical and mental health under control.

    I recently got a lead on a possible job with the US government in a field adjacent to my previous one (essentially, instead of making chocolate teapots myself, I would be working on, essentially, regulations about chocolate teapots). It has enough flexibility that I think it would fit better with my current health situation than my old job was. It also, I think, would play to my strengths better (I’m more comfortable writing about chocolate teapots than making them).

    I’m in the process of putting together a resume and cover letter, but am unsure how best to address my employment gap. Should I discuss it in the cover letter? Or wait for them to ask about it in an interview? What’s the best way to answer questions about it when it comes up?

    1. ferrina*

      It was in the middle of the pandemic- you’re probably fine to not address it. If someone asks in an interview, just say that between the pandemic and a personal health situation (which is now under control), you chose to take some time off.

  79. StellaBella*

    Any advice for how to deal with ambiguity and uncertainty in a role that is at a non profit, and yet again we got declined a grant this week that we were invited by the donor to apply for, and cannot get funding due to several reasons (no follow up from the boss, chaos at various levels, last minute everything for proposals, no willingness to do fundraising detailed work like the relationship stuff that is needed, and a partnership group that only fundraises for the CEO’s projects and staff, among many other things)? I secured a grant in 2021, then the project finished, now another one we are working on is ending too.

    Advice for fundraising is great thank you, as would be how to deal with uncertainty that my role and roles of another few colleagues are directly impacted by the lack of funding – especially when I am junior to all other team members and it is in their mandates to do this not mine, so I got luck the one time but am just so uncertain how to continue on.

    1. Rick Tq*

      It sounds like there is little to no institutional support for fundraising projects at your level at this employer. Plus, it sounds you aren’t empowered to fundraise, last year’s grant was a special case. When grant money runs out, how has your non-profit handled the shortfall? Do they do layoffs?

      You probably need to find a new job.

      1. StellaBella*

        Thanks for the reply. The lack of institutional support is clear yes. People have been laid off in a few offices, yes, once project funding ends. But you know all the support staff and people who have been there 2 decades in hr or finance or well, even in fundraising (one has never had another job, been here for 15 years or so) are never at risk of job loss. I am waiting to hear in November if a recent grant is successful, if not… I will begin looking in earnest. Thanks again.

        1. Pine Tree*

          Oof, run away. I worked at a non-profit like this. The people who wrote the grants (i.e., brought in all of the money) were always on a knifes edge and scrambling to write more and more proposals. Meanwhile the administration (including the “development and fundraising” staff) who were paid out of the indirects for the grants that I and others wrote) were pretty darn secure in their jobs. It was a recipe for a lot of resentment and terrible morale.

          RUN!

    2. PollyQ*

      I recommend dealing with the uncertainty by job-hunting, specifically looking for larger/more securely funded organizations.

  80. Amethyst*

    I’m currently a payment poster making roughly $40k a year, give or take a couple thousand. It’s finance, so there’s tons of overtime and giving up of weekends and some holidays if it falls on the last 7-10 days of each month during the mad rush to get everything in. I’m the strongest poster, posting over $1m/month with less than 1% of mistakes, and putting in the most overtime. But I’m tired after 2.5 solid years of this, and there’s no help coming in to my department (3 others + 2 who pitch in if necessary) on the horizon. So I’m looking to see what’s out there and maybe get out of it entirely if the offer is right.

    Is there anything out there I can parlay this into? There’s rumblings at my job about making me an auditor because I’m the only person on staff who looks at the whole account and asks why. I’m also wanting to get into the higher $60k range since I’m mid-career (nearly 40) and this is the highest paying job I’ve ever worked. But I don’t want to manage anyone. I don’t have that sort of personality. Just teach me how to do my job and leave me alone and I’ll basically meet or exceed whatever metrics you give me.

    Help?

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      Would the auditor job at your current company be supervising anyone? How much would it pay? What are the hours?
      If the answers to those questions are no, lots more and only 40 hours per week, it’s worth checking out.
      Otherwise you could check out internal audit and accounts payable roles at other companies and see how they look

      1. Amethyst*

        In order of your questions: No, unknown, probably no difference in hours. I’ve only been asked if I was interested, which I am. The downside is that since I am the strongest poster, they really would much rather not lose me, and the nature of the auditing job would be helping to post while doing audits so there would really be very little change due to the fact that I am the main poster for this one particular insurance (this is finance in a medical setting) that we get. Additionally, my current company is known throughout the area for being stingy when it comes to paying people market rate. AND it was recently announced that we are merging with another, larger, company so completion won’t be until approximately 2025. I’m not sure if I want to wait that long to see if anything changes. :/

  81. Searching*

    Can an employer require disclosing detailed medical information?

    My friend works for a company with somewhere between 50-200 employees (probably lower end of that range). Every few years, the company looks into whether to switch health insurance carriers. This year, the company is mandating that every employee answer & submit a detailed questionnaire with really invasive questions so the company can evaluate whether enrolling in a self-funded plan is an option. The questionnaire appears to be issued by some kind of professional employer organization that offers payroll, HR, and benefits administration services. Questions include:
    >age and weight for employee & spouse,
    >are they currently pregnant or had previous pregnancy complications,
    >are they or dependents disabled (+ details about disability),
    >all hospital admissions, surgeries, illnesses, mental health issues for past 2 years for employees and dependents,
    >all medications for past 12 months for employees and dependents,
    … and more!
    My friend’s coworkers seem to have no problem submitting this questionnaire to the company’s one-person “HR” department (which just blows my mind!). My friend really doesn’t want to provide this kind of information to their employer. It seems to me to be a violation of ADA and other regulations.

    How should my friend handle this “mandatory” request?

    1. WellRed*

      I wouldn’t be crazy about it either but it sounds like the info will be managed by a third party? She could ask exactly how the info is used and who will have access to it. I really don’t see how this is an ADA violation at all.

      1. WellRed*

        Ugh, I missed where the info gets submitted to the one person HR. I’d still ask those questions however.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      I’d maybe try and meet them a little – yes we want and will use vision plan, only need routine dental checkup knock on wood, and we’d like the higher coverage option for doctors, and we need prescriptions covered, yes we’re nonsmokers. Then decline to give them the rest of the info. They can make an informed decision about which plan to purchase without needing to know the exact meds you take.

    3. Educator*

      There is no universe in which I would give this information to my employer, especially if they were considering a self-funded plan and might be, consciously or unconsciously, considering who is expensive and who is cheap to insure. Never in a million years.

      This is a time to organize with other employees if your friend can, but if she cannot, I would simply not fill it out and let the chips fall. If asked, I would point out that they are opening themselves up to a world of potential discrimination lawsuits, and point out that using actuarial data instead of anyone’s personal data would likely get them more accurately predictive numbers, because employees and employee health needs change anyway.

      1. Educator*

        Also, for the record, this is almost definitely an ADA volition. Here is an explanation from the EEOC, who, incidentally, might want to hear about what your friend’s employer is doing:

        “Once a person is hired and has started work, an employer generally can only ask medical questions or require a medical exam if the employer needs medical documentation to support an employee’s request for an accommodation or if the employer has reason to believe an employee would not be able to perform a job successfully or safely because of a medical condition.” The section of their website about pre-employment inquiries and medical questions, from which this quote was pulled, has more details about exactly what employers can ask and when.

        It also likely violates Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, GINA, and a host of more local laws.

    4. Russian In Texas*

      My company does this – shops for the health insurance annually. Same size company.
      The form has some of these questions – not as detailed, but they have a list of “serious” illnesses that you need to check, pregnancy, disability.
      We too submit this form to the Benefits Department, who is *checks* is also the CFO/Payroll/HR/Co-owner of the company/Wife of the other co-owner.
      It feels icky, and it completely blew my mind after coming from a large corporation.

      1. Searching*

        That’s exactly how my friend has described their company’s “benefits department”!
        When I saw the form, I was just grossed out by the details it asked for.

      2. Annony*

        My company shops for health insurance too, but they get the deidentified plan usage information from the health insurance company. I had thought that was generally how it worked. Is it not standard for the insurance company to provide that information? My employer is much larger so I guess they might have more leverage to ask for that information.

        1. Russian in Texas*

          I used to work for a 10,000 personnel company, there were no questionnaires at all. We were presented with the plans options annually, but there were no applications of any sort, no personal information, none of that. You go to the online portal, click on your plan selection, and you are done.
          I imagine a company of this size has a large enough pool that more detailed data isn’t needed.

        2. Russian in Texas*

          Also, yes, the insurance provide this to the company, but when the company is shopping for the rates, the company provides this information (I listed above) to the insurance, and this information will affect the rates.
          I don’t know why they don’t use the deidentified data they get in the first place, but it’s possible the insurance companies insist on more personalized data for the quote.

    5. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

      By sending in a copy of The Office S01E03 where Dwight tries to force everyone to reveal their health status, the list of reasons this isn’t legal (from Educator’s comment), and a note that says “oh hell no”?

  82. How much notice/what is response when company seems to want you to leave?*

    My friend had been working at company at 65k for about 3 years with no COLAs or raises. When he asked for raise, he was told no but was offered a higher position, paying 80k. He that position about 1.5 years ago.

    The company does contract work for largest tech companies in the world, and my friend’s work is entirely for that one client. The client, in fact, recently sent an email to the CEO of my friend’s company praising their work and stating how valuable they are to the client.

    The company recently hired to brand new people to primary do the duties of his old (lower paying) position. They are entry-level and required a lot of training, which my friend spent months giving them. He then discovered that the 2 new hires were hired at 100k (this is mostly the job that he was performing at 65k). He immediately asked for a raise, after doing plenty of research on glass door and other sites and pointing out their pay at far below entry-level industry average, when they were senior level and added value to company by accomplishing x, y, and z for the client.

    After about 6 weeks of putting them off to “research,” they thanked him for his patience, and scheduled a meeting. Seems like good progress, right? Not so much. During the meeting they broke the news that no raise would be offered, with some very flimsy and verifiably false reasoning.

    Obviously, he is going to quit. He has plenty of contacts and relationships with the client, so references won’t be a problem. The question is, what are the ethics here?
    -Should he do the bare minimum (stop training/shoring up his junior employees who are making more than him), and just stick to his job description?
    -Is it okay to use up his vacation & sick leave prior to giving notice? (He has kids with special needs, & family members with major health issues, and could legit use sick leave to spend some time caring for them.)
    -When he gives notice, is it okay to just give a week instead of the standard 2 weeks?
    -Is it even doable to give a 1-week notice and call in sick for a few of those days?
    -He is marketable and could get temp/contract work tomorrow, if he wanted to, but he 1. does not want gaps or a lot of movement on his resume, and 2. would like to keep his benefits for as long as possible, although there is a back-up plan for that. Should he just quit now and do contract work until he lands something more permanent?

    1. WellRed*

      His company may have rules in place about taking vacation days during notice period. If he could get temp work easily I don’t understand why he’s worried about gaps and it won’t count as a lot of movement, just lump it together highlighting any particular standout accomplishments during this time. He can keep his insurance under Cobra for awhile (18 months?).

    2. OP*

      I should also mention that they didn’t *say* they wanted him to leave. The actually said this was not a reflection of his performance, or their opinion of him. They just simply could not pay him more.

      1. Green Beans*

        I doubt they want him to leave; they probably just never considered that he would want to be paid a fair market wage to stay there.

        He should leave.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      I would use up the vacation/sick leave, and maybe take advantage of the medical insurance if there’s something expensive like dental coverage. Do his job competently but pull back on the extras (if asked, he can make noises about having willing to do extra in the short term, but getting burnt out, and keep things to within a reasonable pace and number of hours a week.) Then give two weeks notice when he moves on.

      FWIW, I suspect they’re not trying to force him out, and may be genuinely shocked when he leaves; they just figure that they don’t need to provide incentives to keep him, or really did spend the budget on the new hires without considering salaries of existing people.

    4. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Yes to doing the bare minimum of his workload, and to start using sick and vacation time. He needs to put his energy toward his job search. Re: giving notice, I think your friend should try to give 2 weeks notice if possible. And honestly, try to build in even more of a buffer if they can before starting the new job. I.e. give a start date 4 weeks out, but still only give current employer two weeks notice.

    5. Green Beans*

      Honestly, I would start job-hunting, use out my vacation and sick time, and – depending on how willing I was to do temp work – specifically say “this is a retention issue” to my boss.

      I would also stop working any overtime or going above and beyond. If the system to use PTO is flexible, I’d just start using it like…now. Take a few days every week, take a longer vacation ASAP, take sick days any time it’ll help with caregiving, take time off to interview. It’s absolutely okay to use his compensation package – which his PTO is – while he’s employed there, in any manner the company’s policies allow.

      If it matters, I firmly believe I shouldn’t have to fight to be paid fairly so… I’d just leave as quickly as possible. If he wants to give a week’s notice (and potentially burn that reference), he can. Every week he works there is a week he’s getting underpaid by hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars. It might be worth it to contract/temp, but it also would make a stronger point to say, “I have an offer for $X from Company. I’ve accepted it and my last day will be Y.”

  83. JustaTech*

    Thoughts/opinions requested: Does it make sense to describe “millennials” as “mid-career”?

    I’m reporting on a conference I’m attending and on some of the sections about talent retention and DEI the speakers have presented some information by generation. I don’t have any issue with this, but I know that at least one of the senior folks in my org has a knee-jerk reaction to the word “millennial”, which he treats as a synonym for “fresh out of college”, and that would completely undermine the point that’s being made.

    As an elder millennial myself I’d describe myself as mid-career (15 years in the industry), but for the generation as a whole would it be better to say “early-to-mid-career”?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Generational descriptors are way too wide of a bracket for that.

      Also, what’s the point? Just saying “mid-career” is enough without tying it to birth year. What about people with non-traditional educational/career paths (4-8 years in the military before college, etc)

      1. WellRed*

        Right? It’s only mid career if it’s… mid career. Not everyone starts at age 22 and stays in one track. And how does one truly know they’ve hit the mid point without knowing the endpoint? (I’m being a little philosophical),

      2. JustaTech*

        Agreed! I wouldn’t have used a generational description at all (since where people are in their careers is more relevant to the information anyway); I just was looking for a synonym so I’m not totally misrepresenting what the speaker said (because I don’t know that the same finding would apply to senior/late career or early career folks).

        I’m also going to use mid-career as “well out of high school, have experience in the workforce” rather than how long since college or the military, or even how long someone’s been in this field. Basically, not a n00b.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I’m with Alton Brown’s Evil Twin that leaving off generational descriptors is for the best.

      If you do need to use them, “early to mid career” should fit for most millennials. Millennials are generally considered people born between 1980-1995-ish, so they are between 27 – 42 years old, and I imagine most 27-42-year-olds are somewhere in their early-to-mid careers.

  84. Dorothea Vincy*

    One of my coworkers is making me roll my eyes because she keeps going on about how insulting it was for our supervisor to mute her in a Zoom meeting last week. He muted her because she wasn’t speaking, he’d already asked her to mute and she hadn’t done so, and one of her kids was screaming to the point of our not being able to hear anything anyone else was trying to say. We all accept a certain amount of kid noise in the course of our work, but there was no reason to let it go on and on when the coworker wasn’t even trying to speak.

    Apparently she was insulted he hadn’t asked first. I pointed out that he’d asked her aloud and also in the chat, and she hadn’t responded. She said, “Well, how did he expect me to hear him or check the chat when [child] was screaming?”

    Uh…yeah, that was the point.

    1. Rose*

      OMG people not muting when they aren’t talking is truly my Zoom-era pet peeve – even if there is NOT a screaming child in the background. I would be massively rolling my eyes at my co-worker too.

    2. Unkempt Flatware*

      Ridiculous. I mute people who make mouth noises and other far less distracting things than kids screaming and I’d look at them like they were turning a shade of silver if they told me they were offended by it.

  85. I'm just here for the cats!*

    I think that Alison should do an interview with the Instagram person Saraimariee_ who does all those funny skits about quiet quitting and working your wage.

  86. Epsilon Delta*

    Is there any way to make group projects for school not suck?

    I am doing an online mba. Every class includes working with a group of 3-5 other students on a project.

    It’s always a struggle to communicate with the group and find times to meet on zoom. People prioritize school differently which leads to either one person dragging the whole group down or one person picking up the slack and doing almost everything, especially the labor of scheduling and coordinating. People have different standards for “good” work. Inevitably a question comes up and only one other person in the group responds or helps.

    I’m a manager at my day job. I have no difficulty motivating my coworkers (whether I manage them or not) to do their part of a project. I have no trouble finding time for meetings. I know when to delegate and when to do something myself. Yet in a school group project, these things feel like swimming upriver in molasses.

    So, what tips do you have to make group projects for school tolerable? Bonus points if the tips don’t make you seem like a control freak.

    1. Educator*

      I might try to figure out everyone’s area of expertise and leverage it–they are going to be more likely to do the work if it is fun and easy for them. Folks in an MBA program are likely to have different hobbies and day jobs.

      I would ask questions of specific people rather than the whole group whenever possible, even if others are included and welcome to chime in.

      I would use an online scheduling program (SurveyMonkey or Calendly are my favorites) to find meeting times. I would also really try to minimize meetings–a project launch where you make a plan and a midpoint check at most. Do as much asynchronously as you can.

      I would also make planning/scheduling and editing/quality improvement explicit jobs when divvying up tasks so they “count” as part of the workload.

      And if this is such a big part of the class–where is your professor in all this? She should have a mechanism for collecting feedback on your group members as collaborators, and should specifically ask who contributed what to the end result. When my professors did this, it really helped keep everyone engaged and accountable, and I do it for all of the group work I assign. Might be worth swinging by office hours to ask her advice about this to see if it prompts her to help people hold each other accountable.

    2. LuckyClover*

      I like to start by having everyone share where they feel their strengths are and what may be more challenging, as well as how they prefer to work and communicate. It makes it easier to delegate and communicate as the project progresses.

  87. Bumblebeee*

    My company is situated in a secured area where everyone undergoes mandatory security checks before they’re even allowed to step foot into the work site. For the security checks I need new employees to send a few documents in a certain format. Anyone who has the most basic computer literacy could do it including my 8 year old child. The instructions are clearly written in brief bullet points. You literally have to read the instructions for 30 seconds and it takes about 5-10 mins to complete and send the various documents to me.

    The problem is that MANY people fail to read instructions and send it in the wrong format or send incomplete. When I apply for security checks they are pedantic about every document and it does need to be done a specific way or it gets rejected.

    I don’t want to be that person who emails people in block cap PLEASE READ INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But it’s incredibly frustrating dealing with people who regularly don’t. Sometimes I have to copy and paste the same instructions two or three times for idiots who glaze over them and resubmit their forms incorrectly. It’s not a big deal when it happens occasionally but with the large number of new hires I’m processing it’s become time consuming and very irritating to follow up with people and just repeat the instructions I’ve sent to them.

    Tl;dr: People are stupidly not following very basic instructions and it’s adding more work to my day.

    Any suggestions welcome besides whacking people which I’ve fantasied about regularly.

    2. Educator*

      Not everyone does well with written instructions. Have you tried sharing them another way?
      -Make a step-by-step video where you show how it is done.
      -Share the instructions as a slide show with just one step per slide so people have to slow down.
      -Create a graphic highlighting the things they should double check before they send them back.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        In a similar vein, could you explain the importance of proper formatting of the documents over a phone call? People might gloss over instructions in an email, or fail to click on a link to a video, etc., but might pay attention when their future manager says “I need you to fill out XYZ documents in a specific manner and I am sending you the instructions. Read them carefully and call me back if you have any questions, because you will not be allowed on the work site if they are not filled out correctly.”

    3. Ez*

      If it’s happening this frequently with new hires, can this be integrated into the onboarding process, with you or someone else either walking through the instructions in real time/out loud or literally having everyone do it together? Better to get it right the first time than go back and fix.

  88. Anonymous Manager*

    I’ve got an issue that in almost any other circumstance I would know how to deal with immediately, but some of the details here are tripping me up.

    I have two staff members (they work in different buildings, and incidentally seem to despise each other) who consistently misgender people. In most circumstances, obviously something I would address immediately and forcefully. However, both of them have the same native language, which is not English, and in all cases the people they’re misgendering are cisgender people whose gender presentations align with their biological sex. They just both seem to have issues with pronouns, and flip-flop words like ‘he’ and ‘she’ or ‘his’ and hers.’

    Other potentially relevant information:
    – They’re both managers
    – They both speak fluent English; this isn’t the only language misstep that I’ve heard, but I think that’s pretty normal for anyone in a second language and their English proficiency doesn’t generally cause issues.
    -One of them manages a nonbinary person who uses they/them pronouns, and this manager doesn’t seem to have problems with using they/them consistently.

    Because they speak the same language as a first language, I’m wondering if there’s something within that language that makes pronouns more complicated. And regardless, I know I need to address it, but I’m not entirely sure how to do it without making them really self-conscious. Has anyone had to address linguistic errors with an employee?

    2. Ez*

      Hmm, is there a way to have a team/org-wide training or discussion about pronouns (DEI related, maybe?) so it’s not putting those two in particular on the spot but they can still learn and see the importance of correct pronouns?

    3. Jessica*

      I’d leave them alone. I work with lots of ESL speakers, and they have various linguistic quirks that I’ve just become familiar with. Sometimes they do use me (native English speaker) as a resource when they want to understand some nuance of English usage, but outside of that I don’t go around nitpicking their English when I’m not asked. There is one person whose native language doesn’t have gendered pronouns and he makes the same mistakes as your employees. At first it would confuse me (wait, I thought he said to contact Bob in Accounting, but he just said “she,” did I mishear/misunderstand who he’s talking about?), but now I just roll with it. It sounds like your employees aren’t doing this on purpose to give anyone else a hard time, nor has anyone been offended by it, so why do you feel you need to do anything about this?

    4. Language Nerd*

      I worked in a setting with a bilingual staff who used my second language more often than my first. We had some very gracious colleagues who were native speakers of L2 and would occasionally take a moment to say something like “Hey, I’ve noticed that english speakers often confuse these two words. We use ‘discuss’ only to talk about arguments with some anger involved, the rest of the time use ‘talk'”. I was always really grateful for the lessons.

      Does it help to reframe this? They aren’t misgendering people, they just have trouble with pronouns as second language learners. Personally, I would just correct it in the moment when speaking to them, and assume that others would do that same, with just as much humility and grace as if they were making any other language error that caused confusion. “Oh, you want me to talk to John? I’m sure HE would be happy to help!” But if you wanted to say something you could say “Hey, I’ve noticed that mandarin speakers often confuse he and she. In our culture, it’s really important to get those two words right. He for males, she for females.” Interestingly, I wonder if the current trend of putting pronouns in email signatures/zoom names might help people learn this faster? (also, your observation that using they/them pronouns is not hard is interesting! I wonder if the native language has a gender neutral pronoun that makes it easier to adapt? Or could just be that because it’s a Thing they’ve taken the time to make sure they get it.)

      1. Educator*

        As someone who has taught ESL, I agree 100% with this reframing. It’s not misgendering, it’s that gendered pronouns are hard to learn if that is not a thing in your first language.

        My brain exploded as a middle school French student when I learned that I had to memorize genders for nouns, and I have always struggled with articles because a table or pizza having a gender is not instinctive to me. My students learning English after a first language that does not have gendered pronouns experienced a similar struggle.

        Languages are quirky, but no one is doing anything wrong here. I would only correct it when it is essential to the communication at hand–otherwise I would let it go.

    5. Chilipepper Attitude*

      My husband speaks English as a third language and almost no one can tell he is not a native english speaker. I’ve known him for 30+ years. He still mixes up he and she with everyone.

      He speaks an Asian language and they really don’t have gendered pronouns the way we do.

      I don’t have advice about what to say to them beyond please pay attention to this.

    6. just another queer reader*

      I don’t think this is misgendering; it’s more of non-native speakers’ difficulty with a specific quirk of English language.

      Especially since it’s not harming trans people, I would leave it alone (or use some of the tips upthread for education). But I wouldn’t sweat this.

      1. just another queer reader*

        Edit to say: maybe this is misgendering, but it doesn’t seem to be hurtful/ hateful as in the usual sense of the term.

    7. Dark Macadamia*

      Definitely treat it as a language thing and leave it alone. I have a relative whose first language is like this, and one of their children came out as trans in adulthood and basically was like “you get a pass on my pronouns” because it’s truly a lifelong language thing. Relative tries, they are very smart and kind and accepting, and they’re just never going to get it consistently.

    8. Foley*

      My third language has no he/she difference – one word for both. When I’m speaking with people from that country in English – he/she is difficult and they make mistakes about fifty percent of the time. IF no one is insulted, then I’d maybe leave it. You could also google to find out if it’s true about pronouns in their language before addressing it.

    9. WheresMyPen*

      In French, the possessive pronoun agrees with the noun after it, not the person who owns it. So in French for example, ‘sa voiture’ can mean his or her car. In Spanish, it doesn’t change, so ‘su coche’ could mean his/her car, su amigo means his/her friend etc. So when speakers of those languages speak English, it can be hard for them to remember to agree the pronoun with the owner, not the object. As long as it’s a linguistic error rather than deliberately misgendering someone, I wouldn’t mention it. If you were equals and on very friendly terms, you could gently correct them but if you manage them I’m not sure that’s appropriate. If they did accidentally misgender a trans/NB person while doing this, you could mention it but otherwise I’d leave it.

  89. Ugh*

    Advice on how to lay someone off with as much compassion as possible?

    Came back from vacation to be told I needed to lay off 3 people out of a team of 7 and their immediate line manager, who has been with us only 6 months. The people who are going are not weak links- it’s two average performers and one who is very good, and it happens that I have 4 other folks on that team who are outstanding. This is going to put this team in a real hole for the next year. I’m spitting mad, my boss is in tears, our VP is an idiot, this sucks.

    Obviously at this point my job is to help them make a graceful exit and entrance to their next careers so I’m searching my network for opportunities I could pass to them, etc. I plan to give them the rest of the day and following day or more off if they want to take it. Any advice on how to handle this as best as I can with the team?

  90. BadCultureFIt*

    I know I’m late, but I’d love any advice from people who’ve worked in toxic jobs. I am aware my job is toxic and am setting great boundaries for myself, and of course actively seeking other work. But other than that — any tips for getting through my days?

    1. Green Beans*

      Treating like an amusing TV show and accepting that nothing you do is going to matter.

      I built out some great systems at my old job that really helped with motivation, safety, and culture. They were mostly gone within a month of me leaving and all but one effort gone within a year. When I called a meeting to hand over responsibilities (at the request of my boss), nothing got handed over. At all. Followed by the acting head of the department suggesting that maybe they wouldn’t have to even replace me and everyone else could just take on bits and pieces of my job (despite the fact that I have a super specialized skillset and background nobody else had). The person they hired to replace me (within a month, because literally none of my job got done after I left and that got noticed by leadership) does…maybe a third of the things I did, probably less. Every time I see someone from that job – there were 300+ people there – they tell me what a noticeable impact my leaving had.

      You have to be okay with an outcome like that. They’re paying you to create temporary things and if that’s how they want to spend their money, that’s their decision. Your job is to get out.

    2. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      When you DO have something go well, document it. Keep track of all the GOOD you do there, document the numbers with facts, and remember these will go on your resume and help get you a BETTER job!

  91. Liz*

    Can anyone advise – I’ve had a work dispute emerge over a work whatsapp chat. Bear in mind this is not an officially endorsed geoup but gets used for work related messaging for the most part and the odd social bit.

    I work in health care in a small hub, and one of our patients has a name that is basically one letter removed from the main character in a popular series. For context, the patient is trans, and has been supported to change her legal gender and name, and so this is the name she chose. One of my colleagues this evening posted on the whatsapp using this patient’s full name (we NEVER do this on unsecured media) followed by a bunch of laughing emojis, referencing the series and how “that’s not her real name, what’s her real name?”

    This made me very uncomfortable and I explained that it is her name and mocking her for it isn’t a good look. The way I see it, it may be a casual chat but we should still be respectful of our patients.

    I got pushback. Told to “relax” and “I’m not mocking her, the name made me laugh is all”.

    I’m willing to give benefit of the doubt, so I explained that while I believe her when she says she didn’t mean it cruelly, she should be mindful that laughing at names is straying into the territory of microaggressions. I’d expected it to just be a learning point and she’d walk it back.

    She replied “lol” followed by “erm ok dbi”. (I had to look up this last one. Apparently it means “don’t believe it”.)

    Guys, I’m absolutely floored. This is a woman in her mid 20s who has been working in our field for 5 years, and I feel like I’m talking to a petulant teenager. I’ve told her that her response has upset me and that laughing at the chosen name of a trans person is discriminatory (I am queer and out at work), but I’m not sure where to go from here. I consider her a friend and I thought we had enough professional respect for one another to challenge these kinds of things. I’m shocked and appalled to be met with this while trying to defend a vulnerable person who we have responsibility for and who does not deserve to have her identity laughed at by those who are meant to be caring for her. I have to work with this colleague on Monday and have no idea whether to try and clear the air while firmly making my point or lodge a complaint.

    1. WellRed*

      I’m not in health care. But I feel like there must be policies both around talking about patients and about treating them with kindness and respect and ESPECIALLY about things like this. Speak to your manager or whoever makes sense to get this addressed asap. This isn’t something for you to muddle through like she was an annoying cubicle mate.

      1. WellRed*

        I say this because while it could have been a teaching moment as you say, she doubled down instead.

        1. anonymous compliancer*

          Also, holy bipaa violation Batman! Does your work have a way to report compliance issues, if that’s something you’d want to do?

          1. Liz*

            *GDPR but point still stands. My direct manager is away this week and next but I can raise this with the next manager up and I think that may be the correct course. I’m really quite upset and disappointed by the whole thing, I have worked with her for 4 years and we are really quite a close knit team.

    2. SofiaDeo*

      What is in your facilities’ Patient Bill of Rights? (I am assuming the US by the “guys” used when addressing this mixed gender group) There is usually something about a right to be treated with dignity/respect. Making fun of a patient is extremely disrespectful. That is a basis for a Verbal Warning, at a minimum, if a manager heard it/saw it, Informal work channel or not. Your colleague needs to understand to take this seriously. The response of telling you to “relax” is basically refusing a reasonable request; if *anyone* ever says “hey, that’s making me uncomfortable, please stop” at work, it needs to be taken seriously, not blown off/disregarded. Not to mention the violation of using a full patient name. If you can point this out calmly, hopefully they will finally get it and understand. They need to realize that even one person (you) taking offense means it needs to stop. If they double down on their position, I might consider talking to a manager about it. Because if they are insensitive in front of a patient, and a patient complains, that’s a much bigger problem. Let alone if they happen to be in the facility, and once again carelessly use a full patient name in a hallway or other place it could possibly be overheard.

      1. Liz*

        We’re actually not in the US, but we’re quite a young bunch who have picked up some Americanisms from popular culture! But your point still stands, I’m sure this was a breach of policy and of GDPR and policy over patient dignity.

        This whole thing has made me very uncomfortable because the initial issue alone is cause for serious concern, and now I’ve got an interpersonal dispute to untangle because, as you say, a colleague being told “hey, this isn’t appropriate” shouldn’t be doubling down and fobbing off the concerns raised. I’m really quite shocked that the whole thing has escalated like this and hurt that she’s been so dismissive.

        She has since messaged me privately with a diatribe about how i was “rude” and claiming that she gets it and didn’t get why i continued – which is absurd because nothing she said suggested that she remotely understood my concerns. At this stage i think I’m going to have to raise a formal complaint.

  92. Imaginary Number*

    I work in a technical field. I’ve been asked to facilitate a discussion amongst another team who is working on a project in an area I’m a technical expert in but does not happen to be a project I’m deeply involved in outside of some sporadic consulting.

    They’re at a crossroads in the project where they need to determine the best way to move forward and there are two very different schools of thought in how to approach a particular technical task that can really make or break the project. Both schools of thought are valid: one focuses on simplicity and speed while the other is much more detailed and focuses on getting it right the first time. There’s value to both methods.

    The key stakeholders in this are all very opinionated people who are very good at their jobs but terrible at doing things a different way than the way they prefer. I’ve worked with most of them before.

    The key here is that I’m leading this as an outsider and, although I can share my expertise as part of the discussion, am not making any decisions. I’m there to help make sure the conversation is useful and will help project leadership make a decision on the right way to proceed. Has anyone done anything like this before or know of any resources for leading this sort of thing?

    1. Educator*

      It sounds like you need a set protocol for this discussion–a predetermined format the conversation will take, including what will be discussed, for how long, and with what goals. In my industry, everyone relies on the National School Reform Faculty protocols. I’ve used them for business decisions as well as the pedagogical stuff. Their Dilemma Consultancy Protocol comes to mind as a good one for this scenario (Google “NSRF Dilemma Consultancy Protocol”). You have to really make people stick to the protocol with a controversial topic, but if you can be assertive about the structure, they work really well.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh gosh, I’ve done this.

      Three rules:
      1) make sure that the pros and cons of each approach are well-documented at all levels; that kind of important information comes out during brainstorming and notional design, but it often gets lost in the mists of time. If you have to change horses midstream, then the team would have to regenerate it which would cause further delays.
      2) risk management: document the risks of each approach, and document the **early warning signs** that those risks are about to occur. So when implementation is happening they’ll know in advance if failure is imminent.
      3) find out from the higher-ups if they also want you to handle egos and prickly personalities. That kind of thing is completely different from referring a technical discussion. If they do want you to do that, you’re going to need help and enforcement from the actual bosses. Even if they don’t want you to do that, you should still pay attention to those things and relay any bad situations to higher management.

  93. Tiger Snake*

    My company is finally doing interviews to hire some new employees – yay!

    My director wants me to participate in the interviews – that makes perfect sense. Except I’ve never been on the interview panel, and I have no idea what I’m doing. Guys, how do you interview for soft skills?

    We’re going to be hiring junior employees for a niche technology area at the moment.
    So we don’t expect them to have technical skills, but we do expect them to be proactive – going off and doing their own research and learning when we give them resources, seeking out answers when they don’t know things rather than wait to be told. Willingness to give it a shot even if you’re not certain, rather than just sit there frozen and not start (basically the ability to actually make an attempt when they get to “okay I’ve shown you what to do. You do this one, and we’ll reconvene tomorrow to see how you did”). And of course, positive attitude, the ability to get along with others, being able to apply what’s been taught to them to different scenarios. All that good stuff.

    So, uh – how to I interview for that?

    1. blue giraffe*

      I thought the classic question for that was how many balls can you fit in a plane? And then you listen to them think through the problem: do they assume what type of balls/plane, do they ask you? Let them ask questions, and watch how they think. are they going to assume the plane is a cylinder, a cube, are there people on it, do they account for that, how often do they ask about which assumptions to make.

    2. winter frog*

      You could phrase it as a “tell me about a time” question, such as “Tell me about a time you were given an assignment and were expected to determine on your own how to complete it. What did you do?” Then listen to their answer and ask follow up questions if needed.

    3. WheresMyPen*

      I think situational questions work best for this, and Alison has mentioned those in many responses. So things like ‘Can you give an example of a time that you had to think on your feet to solve a problem?’ or ‘Can you give an example of when you’ve worked in a team/taken initiative/taught yourself a new skill/taken a risk and it paid off?’ That way even if they don’t have the exact experience for the job, they can apply something they’ve done elsewhere to prove they have the skills or attitude you want.

  94. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

    I’m an academic and a manager at a university. I’ve been in the role for two years, and my organisation responded to COVID by centralising all administrative support. After a lot (A LOT) of pushback from everyone, they have shifted on this slightly and I am finally going to get a dedicated administrative assistant for my unit. Yayy! This person will combine elements of being my Executive Assistant with broader admin work for the unit as a whole.

    The problem is that I am going to find it hard to figure out how best to work with an EA. I’m excited in principle about having the support: I know I’m not always as organised as I should be around things like scheduling, document version control/filing documents, project management, & keeping track of where I’m up to with my multiple responsibilities (not to mention my catastrophic inbox). But! I actually have a background in admin (I used to be a legal secretary), so I’ve been very happy to pick up the administrative tasks that were floating around for the last couple of years. In my own head, the higher-level manager tasks and the admin tasks aren’t super separated (think: “I might as well fill out all these spreadsheets and mail them out individually, since I know what needs to go in them “) and I haven’t learned how to separate them out, or what information the EA might need to be able to do those tasks and how much is too much.

    Anyone who has been through this – tips on how to best work with an executive assistant? Principles, concrete tips, organisational systems/software for keeping tasks visible and tracking progress (Zentask?)… anything would help! Thank you!

    1. Green Beans*

      Reposting because this went in the wrong place:

      I’d hire an experienced, excellent EA and let them take the lead – trust their judgment and when they offer to take things over, say yes as much as you can. If you’re hesitant about saying yes, really question whether it’s you not wanting to give up control (kindly, “I might as well fill out all these spreadsheets and mail them out individually, since I know what needs to go in them” is a prime example of that) or if it’s honestly something you need to do because of your specific title & expertise.

      When you interview and onboard, I would specifically spell out the issues you’re having (organization, version control, inbox management, task management, scheduling, to-do lists, etc…) and ask what their systems are for managing things like that. They’re the experts; they’ll already have preferred systems/software/styles and you don’t actually need to be involved in any of that. You just need to make sure that the final product gets the right email/notification/document in front of you at the right time. No need to reinvent the wheel (especially when your organization systems aren’t working, even if that’s just because of work overload.)

      I’d also suggest you ask them to be vocal about what they can take on; a good EA will have excellent judgment on that and will be able to “invisibilize” a lot of work for you.

      But mainly my suggestion is to hire someone with an excellent track record, who you find easy to work with and whose work personality meshes with yours.

      1. Green Beans*

        Oh – onboarding. Focus on communicating your priorities and needs so they can make soft judgment calls. Don’t worry about the systems they’re using. Worry about making sure they know which emails to make sure you see, which meetings can be rescheduled and which ones can’t, whose phone calls to put through, whose to ignore for the first three calls, and whose to always be regretfully unavailable to. How will you communicate the priority levels of your work and big deadlines? How will people get on your calendar (ask the EA – they’ll need to know how to prioritize asks – or ask you, cc’ing the EA?)

      2. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        Thank you! This is all brilliant, and you have named the elephant in the room – the total lack of admin support has covered up for my need to control everything (because there really wasn’t anyone else to do the spreadsheets so OH NO, guess I will just keep hold of every little bit of the process…) and I have got into bad habits. No major disasters yet but I can see the potential for things to go wrong, so this is a good chance for a reset.

        I don’t get to hire the person, unfortunately, but the thing about spelling out the problems I’m having and letting them use their own systems is exactly the advice I needed; thank you!

  95. Green Beans*

    I’d hire an experienced, excellent EA and let them take the lead – trust their judgment and when they offer to take things over, say yes as much as you can. If you’re hesitant about saying yes, really question whether it’s you not wanting to give up control (kindly, “I might as well fill out all these spreadsheets and mail them out individually, since I know what needs to go in them” is a prime example of that) or if it’s honestly something you need to do because of your specific title & expertise.

    When you interview and onboard, I would specifically spell out the issues you’re having (organization, version control, inbox management, task management, scheduling, to-do lists, etc…) and ask what their systems are for managing things like that. They’re the experts; they’ll already have preferred systems/software/styles and you don’t actually need to be involved in any of that. You just need to make sure that the final product gets the right email/notification/document in front of you at the right time. No need to reinvent the wheel (especially when your organization systems aren’t working, even if that’s just because of work overload.)

    I’d also suggest you ask them to be vocal about what they can take on; a good EA will have excellent judgment on that and will be able to “invisibilize” a lot of work for you.

    But mainly my suggestion is to hire someone with an excellent track record, who you find easy to work with and whose work personality meshes with yours.

  96. Wannabe Manager*

    It’s KPI and goal setting time at my organisation, and I’d really appreciate help with wording some goals that help get me people management experience, including having my organisation/manager take some responsibility for helping secure opportunities.

    Longer story – I applied for an internal entry-level manager role, and was told I didn’t get it as another applicant had more people-management experience. Fair enough, I agree with that on paper, but my desire to move in to management has been openly known for some time, and I just don’t know how I can get that experience without help from the organisation.
    For what it’s worth, I have extensive volunteer management and project management experience, it’s staff management I’m lacking. I have management qualifications, just not practical experience. There isn’t anyone in my current team that I could ask to manage, and getting an intern isn’t an option. Secondment and acting-roles are normal in my organisation, so they are my best bet, but there isn’t a way of knowing when they come up, they require a manager setting them up most of the time, and most go within that department to develop their own staff, which makes sense but my department doesn’t have many of those opportunities.
    My current manager isn’t great at advocating for their team, so I need something that helps explain that I need their help, and ideally have them commit to that.
    I’m looking externally as well, but if I can make it work where I am that would be ideal.

  97. New Employee*

    I’m starting a new job next week, working fully remotely. I would love to hear your nuggets of wisdom and advice for getting off to a good start.

    1. Rick Tq*

      Start up everything and test your cameras, mics, and speakers are working. If you use remote desktops or meeting software get logged in a bit early and test those connections too.

      Basically, be ready to start work on the dot or 5 minutes early.

    2. Martin D35*

      Use your camera for all meetings/interactions (unless it’s a meeting with 50+ people and no one else has their camera on). As a new employee, people need to see your face so they associate it with a real person. I think it’s extremely difficult for a new employee to integrate into a team wile fully remote, but I wish you good luck!

  98. SaeniaKite*

    OK I know I’m a bit late to the thread but my friend just told me the most bonkers story about her workplace! I’m going to tell it pretty much how she did (with my commentary added) and when I say she buried the lede… I will also add I am in the UK which does add another level of craziness to the story.
    So she is a mid level manager in her company and all management was doing mandatory training split into mid level and c suite cohorts. One of the people she was training with- I’ll call him Brian- is someone she described as a**hole but genuinely cares about people. The way she spoke about him (army vet who’s grumpy but funny) put me in mind of my dad- doesn’t try to hurt people but says things that were funny a couple of generations ago and if you get offended that’s a you problem not because they were being offensive. Basically this guy had been moved to her floor because he’d upset people where he was previously but she ‘gets’ him so it’s OK (insert eye ro here). So the topic of the training was conflict resolution, most of us have been there, they got through the day and on the way out Brian turns to my friend and says ‘I have my own method for conflict resolution, tell you tomorrow’ and that’s the end of the conversation. Next day, in training, with all the others who weren’t part of that previous exchange, with no words *at all* this man pulls a GUN and places it on the table. My friend trys to explain the context (somehow thinking this made it ok) ‘Oh this is what you meant by resolving conflict Brian’. And *it works*, no-one says a thing, the gun stays on the table for half an hour before he puts it away. Training ends, everyone goes home. The TRAINER is the one that reported it to management the next day who suspend Brian, and call the police. Police arrest him, raid the house and then close the investigation because it was a decommissioned weapon. Brian quits and the head office issues a statement that 2 senior managers cried upon reading. There is now debate in the company about whether this was handled correctly with some people believing Brian was dealt with *too harshly*. I honestly felt like I was losing my mind hearing this all relayed in such a casual tone. The man brought a gun, decommissioned or otherwise, to work. But reporting him was taking it too far for some apparently. I just can’t imagine ever feeling safe in that place again

      1. SaeniaKite*

        Apparently just carried on with the training. Doesn’t sound like anyone even asked him to put it away. And she wondered why I was mad at her! She even came in the next day and was talking about it with another colleague in a ‘you’ll never believe what Brian did’ kind of way not the ‘I’m not sure how to approach this’ way which might have been a little bit more understandable, when she looked up at him tapping the window of his office with said gun and then waving. Which apparently *didn’t* feel threatening to her. Which shows this wasn’t something he did and then reflected on and realised how wildly inappropriate it was but he either a)left the gun there (unsecured) or b) brought it back the next day. I honestly don’t even know how someone gets to the point where that even seems slightly ok. Even if *you* know its decommissioned the ‘joke’ is clearly ‘oh who needs conflict resolution when you have a deadly weapon’ which is so bizarre. Apparently the finance manager has been emotional because she’s been affected personally by violence and some people are *still* defending it because ‘she didn’t even see it’. I just… talk about toxic workplaces warping your norms!!!

    2. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      OMG! This would’ve been SO WRONG even here in gun crazy USA. My understanding is that guns aren’t quite as prevalent in the UK, which makes this even more shocking.

      1. WheresMyPen*

        Not just ‘aren’t quite as prevalent’, they’re so rare most people have never seen or held a gun except for seeing armed police occasionally, at airports for instance. I don’t know anyone who owns one and you have to have a police inspection to own one. That being said, there are a lot of old service weapons lying around in attics from the war, but the police encourage people to surrender them in case they fall into the wrong hands and are used by criminals to threaten people. So yeah, this story is beyond wild!

  99. Squirrel, Interrupted*

    How do you handle co-workers who talk over you? This has been driving me UP THE WALL recently. For context: we are all women (interestingly, the men I work with don’t do this to me). One is my boss; one is a colleague slightly above my level, but we both report to the same boss; one is our admin. And none of them let me finish a friggin’ sentence. I am so tired of being constantly interrupted. I leave work exhausted and frustrated because I haven’t gotten to express a complete thought all day, except in the team chat, where they can’t interrupt me. I do speak fairly slowly, but that’s common in our part of the US.

    (This is a throwaway name; if there’s already a poster who goes by Squirrel, Interrupted here, I’m not them)

    1. Gary Patterson’s Cat*

      I have one VP who is notorious for this, and he does it to everyone. Frustrating I know!

      Maybe try this: Just go quiet. When they eventually look at you, calmly say “Are you finished now?”

      I’ve read somewhere that when someone interrupts, you can say something like “May I finish please.”

    2. WheresMyPen*

      I can be guilty of this, not at work really but when I’m speaking to friends or family members. I often get too excited about having something to contribute and I just can’t help but interject. My mum and I both do it, and my brother hates it. He tends to bluntly say ‘let me finish’ or ‘don’t interrupt, I haven’t finished’ and after a couple of times of him saying that, I do remember now when talking to him that I need to wait til he’s done. I am more aware of it in other conversations too, and if my mum does it I tell her off. I know it’s not that easy at work, but if appropriate it might be worth saying ‘can I finish what I was saying?’ or ‘hang on’ and after a couple of reminders hopefully they’ll stop. Or holding up your hand if they start to mean ‘just hold off for a sec’ while you finish might go down better?

  100. Aaron*

    New manager here (One month and counting). Alison’s site has been one of the most helpful resources in making the transition from individual contributor to manager. One thing I find the most difficult about managing is knowing when to use your authority and when to hold back. When I worked alongside the people I am now managing, we used to poke fun at a particular manager in our operation who was a pushover and let his reports run over him. OTOH, lean too far the other direction and you find yourself labeled as a tyrant lording over his little empire.

    It’s still difficult to see myself as the person now making the decisions about the overall direction of the team. I’m naturally an empathetic person but I also tend to be impulsive and am not one to shy away from conflict. Curbing my inpusive nature is the primary behavior I am trying to change about myself right now.

    Not really looking for help here as I think every situation is different. Just letting off some steam I suppose.

  101. WheresMyPen*

    I recently saw a job advertised on LinkedIn that I liked the look of, so I applied through Easy Apply (that looked like the only way they were accepting applications, their website linked to LI). As there was no prompt to upload a cover letter I just uploaded my tailored CV, but now I wonder if I should have included a cover letter in the same file? What should I do now? Leave it as is, remove and resubmit with a cover letter, follow up soon with the cover letter?

    1. WheresMyPen*

      Update – they’re no longer accepting applications, so I guess I’ll just wait and see what happens, and in future I’ll make sure to include a cover letter!

  102. Not This Again*

    I’m really not doing well mentally, so I’m debating checking myself into a psych ward. How do I deal with the work ramifications of that? I would still like to pay my bills.

    I’m salaried at a small company, no HR, with “traditional” bosses (I.e. not sure how good they are with mental health), and I’d be worried about work gossip or people perceiving me as incompetent. Is it even possible to get more intense help under these conditions?

    Bonus points if you’ve done this (or something like it) before.

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