Ask a Manager

{ 328 comments… read them below }

1. Li0ness* December 21, 2022 at 12:12 am

   For the love of dog #4, take the two weeks off and keep your mouth shut, if not for yourself, for your other coworkers who might desperately need that time. Especially since if management starts getting pushback, they may pull the benefit for everyone— and it IS a benefit.
   1. BuildMeUp* December 21, 2022 at 12:17 am

      It sounds like the OP is in an industry like banking, where employees taking a week or two off every year is a method of catching fraud. So it’s unlikely the company would pull it, thankfully!
      1. MAcc* December 21, 2022 at 12:47 am

         Came here to say this – a good internal controls framework will have something like this policy.
      2. allathian* December 21, 2022 at 1:15 am

         Yes, I agree, and the LW says that it’s to prevent fraud.

         Given that these are old letters, I’d really like to know if the LW’s attitude to staycations has changed at all during the last few years…
         1. WellRed* December 21, 2022 at 7:18 am

            I really hope t
      3. Lilo* December 21, 2022 at 6:55 am

         Yes, to the point that LW pushing back may make someone think they’re committing fraud or some other thing they’re trying to hide.
      4. IndustriousLabRat* December 21, 2022 at 8:02 am

         As soon as I saw the LW use the word “regulatory”, I thought EXACTLY the same thing.
      5. Slightly Less Evil Bunny* December 21, 2022 at 8:49 am

         Yeah, I had never heard of mandatory vacations as a thing – until I began studying for my Security+ exam. It’s definitely used in certain sectors, for exactly the reason BuildMeUp stated. So pushing back would not look good.
      6. WheresMyPen* December 21, 2022 at 8:52 am

         I’m drawing a blank – how does taking two weeks off help catch fraud? Is it so they can do an audit or something?

         And I’d be biting their hand off for two weeks’ free holiday, if only to catch up on my reading pile!
         1. Trina* December 21, 2022 at 9:13 am

            I would guess it’s about identifiable patterns; if there’s a noticeable difference in operations or in how numbers are adding up during the specific weeks someone is gone, that’s a pretty significant clue to investigate further.
         2. UKDancer* December 21, 2022 at 9:18 am

            It means that someone else takes over their work / accounts / email so they can see if anything is amiss whether it’s money being siphoned off or things like insider trading. If someone is running a major scam / stealing the bank’s money then they usually need to stick around to cover up the issue and make sure it doesn’t get spotted. So having someone really opposed to taking their 2 weeks is probably of itself noteworthy.

            It’s not foolproof but it can be a useful way to pick these things up. Someone further down mentioned Barings bank which collapsed after significant embezzlement by Nick Leeson (a trader there) which cost them £827 million. He wasn’t being monitored so it wasn’t picked up. If someone covered his work for a fortnight they would probably have identified the anomalies in what he was doing and he’d have been stopped sooner.
         3. imaginaryoranges* December 21, 2022 at 9:22 am

            If someone else has to cover your work for two weeks, there’s a good chance they’ll see if you’ve been doing anything sketchy and can flag it.
         4. The Eye of Argon* December 21, 2022 at 9:25 am

            The exact procedures probably vary by institution. It’s just much easier to catch a fraudster when they can’t cover their tracks, like not letting anyone else see the bank statements showing they’ve been writing themself large checks and forging signatures, or making a point of being the only one to deal with a client they’re stealing from, creative math in their accounting, etc.

            Personally, I’d love to be on vacation when my books get audited, because my auditors question every. bleeping. thing. and it drives me bonkers.
         5. Inoffensive Nickname* December 21, 2022 at 9:30 am

            Look up Rita Crundwell. She was the comptroller for the city of Dixon, IL, and is to date, the largest single case of embezzlement by a city official in the US. She got caught because she went on vacation and her assistant noticed something was off.
            1. So they all cheap ass rolled over and one fell out* December 21, 2022 at 11:43 am

               Fascinating story!
            2. Jules* December 21, 2022 at 5:08 pm

               I think there’s a Netflix doc about her. Crazy story!
         6. I'm A Little Teapot* December 21, 2022 at 9:37 am

            It’s often a lot of work to commit and cover up fraud, so by being forced to be away for 2 weeks (and someone else to do the job) dramatically increases the chances that fraud will be uncovered. It’s also helps reduce the chance of fraud in the first place, because if you know that you’ll be forced to be away for 2 weeks and someone else will be doing your job it helps remove the perceived opportunity.

            (There’s 3 things needed to have fraud: Pressure, Opportunity, and Rationalization. Removing any of the 3 means you won’t have fraud. It’s also functionally impossible to completely prevent fraud, because collusion is always a possibility. If you’re interested, Fraud Triangle is your key term.)
            1. Reality.Bites* December 21, 2022 at 9:47 am

               Wouldn’t it be more useful at catching fraud if it was done without advance notice?
               1. Hlao-roo* December 21, 2022 at 9:59 am

                  I imagine it could be more useful at catching fraud if the two weeks off were announced without much advance notice (for example, telling someone on Thursday, “starting Monday, you’ll be on your annual two-weeks leave”). But it is useful to prevent fraud if you have a culture of “everyone takes two consecutive weeks off every year, so the company has a chance to catch fraud” which (somewhat) removes the “opportunity” from the fraud triangle.
               2. Loredena* December 21, 2022 at 10:00 am

                  Now? Probably. When these regulations were implemented though it was pretty difficult to keep it going and hidden if out two weeks, as there was less automation. I’m surprised it is applied to everyone though. My recollection from my fathers time in banking was that it only applied starting at certain levels—and it came out of PTO (which was generous)
                  1. UKDancer* December 21, 2022 at 10:15 am

                     I think some companies / sectors apply the rule to everyone on the basis that corruption can apply at any level or involve people at all grades. Also if you’re giving all your junior staff an extra 2 weeks of leave each year, it’s probably a pretty good staff retention measure.
               3. Cthulhu's Librarian* December 21, 2022 at 10:13 am

                  Yes and no.

                  In theory, you’d have a better chance at catching active fraud when there’s no advance notice, and (according to family who does bookkeeping) a lot of fraud does get detected when someone ends up out of work for a period of time unexpectedly. Someone doing the job on a temporary basis sees something just slightly strange, and asks someone else about it, and then it turns out no one else knows who a supposed vendor is, and shipping has no record of ever receiving parts from them…

                  For regular (in terms of period) and ongoing fraud/embezzlement, unscheduled can be great.

                  But there’s also methods of checking for fraud that involve looking at patterns of behavior – does someone always make sure that there’s nothing on the Addams account happening while they’re on leave? Do they make a large deposit or withdrawal, or move funds around between accounts? Do they do that every year before their leave? What they did in the month/weeks/days leading up to going on their leave can be a clue as to where they are trying to hide things. For more sophisticated fraudsters (ie, someone running an investment fund that is actually a ponzi scheme) this can be the most viable way of figuring out what they’re doing.

                  And from a business standpoint, having things be completely unannounced can scare customers – they think of it as more of an active investigation than a prevention tool, if all the sudden they can’t get Bernie on the phone when he said he’d take their call today especially if told it’s because of fraud prevention measures. If instead Bernie has told them “I’ll be out of the office for a couple of weeks, and Howard is taking care of my accounts in the meantime.” the customer is less likely to be concerned – and if Bernie is trying to keep Howard and the customer from talking, that’s a sure sign there needs to be a very close look at the customer’s account. It is also unnecessarily chaotic – things fall through the cracks if there’s no planning, because for this to be effective, there should be no/minimal contact between the person checking for fraud, and the person taking leave.
               4. Robin* December 21, 2022 at 10:22 am

                  Even if told ahead of time, it increases the effort needed to keep the fraud secret by a heck of a lot. There is also a difference between being told you will be kept away from the office for two weeks and being told *which* two weeks. LW did not specify how much notice they were given for when they have to take the two weeks off.

                  Could a dedicated enough fraudster get around it? Sure, but there are exponentially fewer fraudsters with that level of dedication, so it still functions to reduce fraud.
               5. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 12:17 pm

                  Wouldn’t it be more useful at catching fraud if it was done without advance notice?

                  Yes, it would. But even with notice, there are a lot of pieces that are out of a fraudster’s hands. Like people who call / come in and say / do things that raise red flags.

                  For example, one case that I recall hearing about was a senior center where the person was charging for something that should be free (in cash, of course), and then pocketing the money. She was out unexpectedly and someone came it for the thing, and pulled out cash to pay which effectively blew the whole scheme up.
            2. CB* December 21, 2022 at 12:23 pm

               Are you my accounting ethics professor, by chance?
         7. Beth* December 21, 2022 at 10:21 am

            Internal controls and background audits and reconciliations tend to run on weekly cycles, even now (although technology has made it possible to run a lot of control checks daily). When someone is only out for a week or less, they can time their dodgy activities around standard controls; to make that work two weeks running without being on hand to cover up discrepancies is much more difficult.

            It doesn’t eliminate fraud by any means, but it does make basic anti-fraud controls more robust.
   2. OutOfPTO* December 21, 2022 at 9:31 am

      If my company gave me two weeks off I’d run for the door. I’ll never understand people who have to work all of the time.
      1. Elsie* December 21, 2022 at 10:03 am

         Me too! Taking two weeks off in a row sounds like a dream! I wouldn’t have any trouble finding ways to fill that time. Sleeping in and long walks every day :)
      2. Meep* December 21, 2022 at 10:23 am

         I consider myself a workaholic and even I would not argue. Spend that time reading a book, working on house projects, or heck – traveling!
      3. rayray* December 21, 2022 at 10:48 am

         Seriously, especially when it doesn’t come out of your PTO bank. This sounds like a DREAM.
      4. KatEnigma* December 21, 2022 at 10:51 am

         Even without notice, it’s a gift! I used to work a job where we were paid 97% of our pay (odd union negotiated number) any time there was a temporary layoff. We were paid well, and that loss of 3% wasn’t a burden for a couple weeks at a time. Even with less than a week’s notice, people managed to travel some. We could call on Wednesday to hear if we were returning to work the following Monday. It’s sad, really, that LW was so upset by it.
      5. Curmudgeon in California* December 21, 2022 at 11:18 am

         Seriously. Two weeks off, paid, that doesn’t come out of my PTO? Sign. Me. Up!!

         Even if I’m living paycheck to paycheck, two weeks to do my own thing at home while being paid is a wonderful gift any time of year. If my boss said that I’d be thrilled. You want to audit me while I’m away? Go right ahead. I’ll be catching up on my reading stack and taking mid-day naps.

         When I was younger I might not have seen it that way? But even at my most gung-ho I would have come around and relished that extra time off every year, and missed it if I changed fields.
      6. Bunny Lake Is Found* December 21, 2022 at 11:32 am

         Even having 2 weeks off to really deep clean your house at a leisurely pace would be great…like, clean out the fridge and wash out the inside, wash the walls (and while at it, finally touch up those dings in the paint). So many tasks you look at daily and go “ugh, yeah, I need to get to that” could get done in those two weeks!
      7. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 12:23 pm

         I’ll never understand people who have to work all of the time.

         Except that it’s really not relevant to the question.

         I don’t really understand it either, but I do not need to. All we need to give a useful answer is to understand what the potential consequences are in this context.
      8. marvin* December 21, 2022 at 1:12 pm

         I feel for this letter writer because I too would have found two weeks of unstructured time off challenging at times when I was really struggling with my mental health. Having daily structure and being forced to go out and interact with people can be really beneficial sometimes.
   3. MillenialHR* December 21, 2022 at 9:34 am

      Absolutely agreed! And just because LW doesn’t need it this year doesn’t mean s/he won’t need it next year or the following year as their work amps up in intensity.
      1. EPLawyer* December 21, 2022 at 9:38 am

         She can plan accordingly in the future. Now that she knows it is not optional, she can plan her big vacation for those 2 weeks and save her PTO for shorter trips, or whatever. Knowing you are GUARANTEED a solid 2 weeks in a row opens up a lot of possibilities.
   4. Slow Gin Lizz* December 21, 2022 at 10:00 am

      This one is such a non-problem I can’t even. How many of us would KILL for two extra weeks off that didn’t burn PTO? I hope OP4 finally learned how very privileged they are.
      1. Slow Gin Lizz* December 21, 2022 at 10:04 am

         Also, OP? If you’re still listening and are looking for something to do to fill your two weeks, maybe volunteer for an organization that helps underprivileged populations. I, OTOH, am not so generous and would be finding the cheapest possible plane tickets to a beautiful destination.
   5. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 12:09 pm

      Especially since if management starts getting pushback, they may pull the benefit for everyone— and it IS a benefit.

      Not possible. As others have noted, this is a fraud prevention measure, which means that the employer is not going to get rid of it, even if NO ONE wants it. Especially since this is not just the company being super cautious on its own, but it’s required by legally binding regulations.
2. BuildMeUp* December 21, 2022 at 12:15 am

   #4 – The fact that they’re thinking of burnout is nice, but I guarantee 95% of the reason for the time off is to identify fraud. This is a normal part of a number of industries.
   1. Don* December 21, 2022 at 12:27 am

      Yep, the can’t even come into the building thing is the tipoff. In banking this is done because it makes it hard if not impossible for someone running fraud to keep their scheme secret if they’re not there to cover their tracks. Hopefully the letter writer didn’t make an issue out of it, since that would really be a red flag for them (no matter how innocent it may be on their part).

      Honestly it’s surprising nobody took a moment to explain this to the LW. I guess maybe they got the explanation but thought it was just some sort of pro forma thing?
      1. Roland* December 21, 2022 at 1:10 am

         The problem isn’t that this wasn’t explained; clearly knows what it’s for, they just think it doesn’t apply to them. From the letter:

         > The two weeks in a row is mandatory to prevent fraud and burning out.

         They know it’s mandatory and they know it’s to prevent fraud.. And yet. Lol.
         1. EPLawyer* December 21, 2022 at 9:40 am

            They know the reasons. They just think, well but I don’t have anything TO DO during that time and I haven’t been committing fraud so why should I still have to take it?

            Its just not really connecting the dots. One dot — must take time off to prevent fraud. Other dot: but I’m new with no plans. The dots are in separate universes.
      2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd* December 21, 2022 at 2:24 am

         Yeah, if I was their boss – or just heard about this – my red flags would be going off about them being up to something (I’d be wrong based on the contents of the letter, but I guess they haven’t said all of this out loud and even if they had, I’d still be suspicious). What does it even mean to be “too new” to engage in fraud?!
         1. Myrin* December 21, 2022 at 3:31 am

            At the time of writing the letter, OP had been at her new job for at most five months – I’d guess she’s only thinking of intricate fraud schemes which would be too elaborate to set up in such a short amount of time and not things like, IDK, simply siphoning a client’s money into your own pocket or something.
         2. bamcheeks* December 21, 2022 at 4:27 am

            They might not have the clearance / independence to do something sneaky yet, but that it’s actually easier for the company to manage everyone taking the time anyway rather than have to institute a system where it only applies to people with certain clearance or types of oversight.

            I hope this OP got better at spending time with themselves! Sounds like work was providing something that they didn’t know how to get elsewhere if the prospect of two weeks off was so alarming to them.
            1. UKDancer* December 21, 2022 at 5:12 am

               Also people who are new to a company may not know all of the rules as well and so could be caught up in something without realising. If you’re the new receptionist opening the post and Larry (who is senior and experienced) says “you need to pass cheques from company X to me directly instead of to Moe with the other cheques” that may not seem unusual and you may just assume that’s the way of things and it may only emerge later that Larry was pocketing the money.

               A newbie may not have the level of experience to spot that something is “off” in a company.
               1. Falling Diphthong* December 21, 2022 at 9:44 am

                  This.

                  Declaring to your boss that you are too adjective to engage in fraud is just going to get you side-eye, and focused questions about who suggested that line of argument.
            2. Malarkey01* December 21, 2022 at 3:20 pm

               Actually one of the riskiest times for fraud is when there’s turnover. Both in terms of having a new unquantifiable person working there that you haven’t had time to access yet, and the higher risk of having someone who doesn’t have the institutional knowledge to know they are being asked to unwittingly participate in a fraud (and may be receiving training from the one planning the fraud).
         3. BoredFed* December 21, 2022 at 6:50 am

            If the mandatory two weeks away from work policy is part of the firm’s system of internal controls, then granting an exception would be a red flag for the regulatory supervisory agency. Not gonna happen.
   2. Llama Llama* December 21, 2022 at 6:48 am

      Right. This time off is not about OP, it’s about fraud prevention.
      1. chewingle* December 21, 2022 at 7:59 am

         Even so, I would kill for this! What industries do this?
         1. Xl* December 21, 2022 at 8:14 am

            Banking and financial industries.
         2. IndustriousLabRat* December 21, 2022 at 8:18 am

            It’s widespread in the Financial / Banking related professions. One might also encounter it, say, while working at a Motor Vehicles registry, where both cash and official documents are handled… based on the number of recent fraud arrests out of my own State’s RMV, there might be a few vacancies needing to be filled ;)
         3. UKDancer* December 21, 2022 at 8:20 am

            Major finance companies and the banking sector in the main. I’ve a friend who works at a major financial institution and she has to take 2 weeks off every year for that reason. She usually visits her family abroad, and sees all her relatives so it works quite well.
         4. KRM* December 21, 2022 at 9:50 am

            I’ve also seen this implemented in larger companies if you’re in payroll or accounts.
      2. Here for the Insurance* December 21, 2022 at 1:51 pm

         “This time off is not about OP, it’s about fraud prevention.”

         This is the problem. OP is taking personally something that isn’t personal.
   3. ferrina* December 21, 2022 at 9:09 am

      It’s sweet to think a company would mandate 2 weeks off just to prevent burnout, but no, that’s not generally how companies work.
      1. Curmudgeon in California* December 21, 2022 at 11:23 am

         It’s to prevent fraud and audit everybody in the financial sector. Preventing burnout is just an added bonus.
3. MassMatt* December 21, 2022 at 12:29 am

   I am really struggling with LW #4’s “problem”. So many LW’s are working long hours and burning out, it often affects their health. When I started working, it took me years to build up to even 3 weeks of PTO, and that included sick time. To me it’s like someone complaining about getting paid too much.
   1. Caramel & Cheddar* December 21, 2022 at 12:35 am

      A lot of people don’t like taking time off unless they’re going on an actual vacation, and I wonder if LW is someone like that. Especially if you’re entry level where you may have way more time than money, this can be hard to wrap your head around. I can’t personally relate (I always want more time off!) but I’ve definitely worked with people like this before.
      1. allathian* December 21, 2022 at 1:28 am

         Yeah, me too. And I work in an environment where taking 4 weeks off at a time is unremarkable for someone who’s been working for more than a year. We’re required to take at least 2 weeks off at a time once a year.

         I must admit that I feel rather sorry for people whose lives are so filled with work and nothing else that they don’t know what to do with themselves if they’re off work for two weeks unless they’re traveling somewhere or too sick to work.
         1. Phryne* December 21, 2022 at 3:59 am

            I have loads of time off in a year and I’ve so far never managed to get bored while being at home with absolutely nothing in particular to do, not even in 4 weeks of summer holiday… But even that is not for OP (I can totally understand some personalities need something to do), there is so much you can just go and do even with no money? Seems like a good opportunity to discover some hobby to do when you are not working.
            1. Madame Arcati* December 21, 2022 at 8:04 am

               Yeah, I was trying to think of a kinder way of saying OP needs to get a life but that’s kind of it. The idea that time off work must be made “worth it” by a holiday (vacation) abroad or at least out of town, is just nonsense. And the idea that OP literally has nothing they’d rather do than work, whether that is building the Death Star out of matchsticks or sitting around in your pants watching YouTube cat videos and eating Nutella straight from the jar…well it’s kind of sad really. I wonder if they grew up with a culture of always having to be productive and achieve things unless they were away from home on holiday or at work.
               I hope the original publication/response helped OP give themself permission to chill however they pleased. You must have a life outside work; the opposite is unhealthy and I have seen it have a bad effect on people – affecting their work lives as well.
               1. Just Your Everyday Crone* December 21, 2022 at 9:33 am

                  Eh, some people like to be doing things, I don’t think it’s necessary to tell them how to live their lives.
                  1. EPLawyer* December 21, 2022 at 9:43 am

                     But there are so many things you can do to be doing things, even if you don’t have money. A lot of museums are free. You can go to the park. You can discover the small interesting things about your town (most of that stuff is free too). So you can DO something if you must feel busy even if you don’t have a lot of money but do have TIME.
               2. Hlao-roo* December 21, 2022 at 9:36 am

                  I know when I first graduated from college/university and started working full time, I did have a few months of “…what are my hobbies? What am I supposed to do with myself when I get home from work every day now that I don’t have to study for exams and write papers?” Most of my college friends went through a similar adjustment period when they entered the working world. So I hope that the OP was in the process of making a similar adjustment, and that the two weeks off gave them some time to take up a new hobby, or explore their city, or just get in touch with themself.
               3. Yangtze River* December 21, 2022 at 11:58 am

                  OP has a life. It may not be the life that you would choose, but it is the life that she chooses. Understanding is better than judgment for people who live their life differently than you do.
            2. Lily Rowan* December 21, 2022 at 10:52 am

               The first time I took a week off without going out of town, I was worried about wasting it or being bored or something, so I made lots of plans! Lunch with different people, different walks, one day trip, but nothing that cost a ton of money. It was great!
         2. Kali* December 21, 2022 at 10:34 am

            When the lotto went above a billion dollars, we went in on an office pool and joked about the entire department quitting if we hit all the numbers. One coworker said that he wouldn’t quit, because what else would he do? Ummm, be a multi-millionaire who can literally do anything? I honestly felt a bit sorry for him, even though his response was completely on-brand for him.

            Meanwhile, I’d be *thrilled* to be made to take 2 weeks off without hitting my PTO (and I’d totally quit in a hot second if I won the lotto jackpot)!
            1. Curmudgeon in California* December 21, 2022 at 11:26 am

               Yeah, if I hit it big there would be a two week notice than I would be gone. After I got everything squared away I might go consultant just to keep myself busy, but I have a ton of stuff to keep me busy if I don’t have to worry about bringing in money.
      2. Ed123* December 21, 2022 at 3:07 am

         I only take time when I’m going on an actual vocation. But that’s only because I have limited PTO days and have to do that. I’d love to take time off to travel and to chill at home. But not enough days for both!
      3. LIZZIE* December 21, 2022 at 8:11 am

         I was like that early on, but only in that I had more time than money! I still took time off; even if it was just to “catch up” on stuff. Errands, appointments, or just doing absoutely nothing. I’m at a point in my career now, I get close to 8 weeks (including the usual 2 I’ve carried over for the last couple of years) and while I use my PTO to take vacations, I also still take days off just to catch up on things.
      4. Antilles* December 21, 2022 at 8:37 am

         There’s definitely people who don’t really count things as vacation unless you’re traveling or doing something unique/cool.
         Effectively that if you could look at someone’s vacation and say “wait, you could do that any time”, then they think it’s not a ‘real’ vacation or it’s a “waste of PTO” or whatever.
         1. Stuckinacrazyjob* December 21, 2022 at 9:38 am

            Yes I need to go on vacation more often so I don’t have to explain to everyone who is now panicked that I am quitting my job ( me : so and so will cover my work for this week everyone: !!!) But I didn’t do vacation because I’m not organized enough to go on a trip or anything
      5. Grace Poole* December 21, 2022 at 9:48 am

         I have a generous amount of PTO, and I take most of it for no good reason. Sure, there are some actual vacations here and there, but a lot of it is visiting my elderly parents and random mental health days where I might knock out some personal appointments or do absolutely nothing.

         One of my close colleagues is the kind of person who takes her PTO, but is emailing and Slacking on her days off.
   2. lobstah* December 21, 2022 at 8:10 am

      yeh, i remember when this letter came out and I was so burned out doing all the things at work and also spearheading a major volunteer project along with all my regular household stuff and I realized I had not had two weeks off consecutively since the 90s. It really bothered me. And unfortunately I still haven’t had two weeks off consecutively and get pushback every time I try.
   3. lost academic* December 21, 2022 at 10:00 am

      I’m sympathetic to all sides, but I will add something that I think a lot of commenters on this thread could be missing: a mandated period of time off, paid or otherwise, can FEEL like it’s a benefit that isn’t useful to various sorts of people. Great, two weeks of PTO that I don’t have control over that I can’t use to 1) plan things I’d actually need or want to do, 2) cover sick dependent care or school vacations/holidays or maybe even 3) I’m just getting into a flow at a new job and now I’ll have to start further back on some things after 2 weeks off, that won’t look or feel good. Now, I think the OP has clearly presented THEIR reasons and they aren’t those I mentioned above and I think they are fair, and that they are missing the point of the fraud prevention break (so, the company should do a better job explaining why it’s universal) but if part of my benefits package was an immovable 2 weeks off when it wasn’t at all useful to me…. I would also have mild feelings of resentment given all the other PTO and UPTO I have to take. So – this comment is largely for other commenters. The OP will hopefully have internalized the value around the requirement and come to terms with it since the letter was published – I think I would have.
      1. New Jack Karyn* December 21, 2022 at 10:08 am

         It looks like these two weeks are scheduled in advance, though. The boss said they could move the two weeks a couple of months later in the year. So I think that it is something one *can* plan for–buy plane tickets in advance, book a boarding service for the dog, whatever.
         1. Bunny Lake Is Found* December 21, 2022 at 11:43 am

            Yeah, it definitely seems there are “cycles” of when the 2 weeks are scheduled. Even if the LW couldn’t take a vacation, they could schedule things for those 2 weeks that they would otherwise have to fit in on weekends or around their work day (dentist, annual doctor appointments, hair cut, tax prep etc.) which would help lighten the load during their normal work weeks.
      2. Yangtze River* December 21, 2022 at 11:45 am

         My last job closed between Christmas and New Years. The time off was paid and was categorized similar to paid holidays, of which we got 5. So overall similar to a lot of companies in terms of number paid days off, but they decided for me that those days would be between Christmas & New Year.It was popular with a lot of people, but I hated it. I want my time off, I just don’t want it at that time of year.
         I think this blog attracts people who don’t really like their jobs, who have more work than they can get done in 40 hours, and who are stuck working overtime that is unwanted. That demographic can find it really hard to understand people who really enjoy their work, find it energizing, and want to do a lot of it.I know being unhappy at work can really mess with your head, but it’s disappointing sometimes how little effort anyone makes to appreciate how somebody might enjoy this type of lifestyle.
         1. Blarg* December 21, 2022 at 1:30 pm

            SAME. I’m Jewish. The week off between Christmas and New Years is the worst week to have off. It reminds me of when I was a kid and none of our friends could go out and play over the holidays cause they were with family. And I’m introvert who doesn’t even want to go out and play anymore…

            I do appreciate the free week off, obviously, and I feel weird being annoyed by it. I chill, I work on craft projects, I catch up on podcasts. And I try to not dwell on the centrality of Christianity in the US and all the people who tell me Christmas is a secular holiday.
   4. Zorak* December 21, 2022 at 10:01 am

      As someone said, the best cure for burnout is an active interest in your own life. If you wouldn’t be excited for / couldn’t figure out what to do with two weeks off without travel plans, I’d say take that as a major red flag about where you are, both personally and in terms of work life balance.
   5. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 12:31 pm

      I am really struggling with LW #4’s “problem”. So many LW’s are working long hours and burning out, it often affects their health

      You know, I’m really having a hard time with this attitude and all of the judgement in this thread. I’m someone who would love to be off for 2 weeks paid, and not sick, if I were sure that I wouldn’t be coming back to chaos and extra work. But I simply don’t understand why everyone needs to weigh in on how awful the OP is being for not wanting to take this time.

      Do I find it odd that the OP doesn’t want to take the time? Absolutely. Do I fail to understand it? Yes. Do I think it’s possible that it indicates deeper issues that the OP might want to dig into? Sure.

      But NONE of that is a moral failing. And the fact that they do have a certain level of privilege that others don’t have doesn’t make them a monster, nor horrible for not appreciating that privilege.

      Also, this kind of judgement is going to make it harder for the OP to hear the message that they DO need to hear, because it’s wrapped up in a level of negativity that’s hard for anyone to listen to.
   6. laser99* December 21, 2022 at 12:54 pm

      She might not be able to afford to take a trip. I’m in the same boat.
4. GelieFish* December 21, 2022 at 12:33 am

   I took a fraud prevention class once. The stories were crazy and I arill think of how fraud could be committed in various situations. Lol
5. Mary* December 21, 2022 at 12:38 am

   #5) “She assaulted a grocery store employee because the item she wanted was discontinued and it was the favorite of her autistic child.”

   Uhhhhh….

   “She has now pled guilty to assaulting the employee and a police officer”

   OMG What?? The coworker assaulted TWO people? One a police officer?

   The boss is a wackjob. Was there an update on this?
   1. Mary* December 21, 2022 at 1:50 am

      To clarify, assaulting the grocery store employee is so horrible. I meant that it’s such a ‘wtf’ level of thought to THEN assault a police officer. What was going on when this happened?
      1. 123* December 21, 2022 at 2:18 am

         It feels like a notalwaysright story. One was a customer swatting with a handbag which seems easier to imagine.
      2. MK* December 21, 2022 at 3:32 am

         It sounds like caregiver burnout turned caregiver breakdown.
         1. inko* December 21, 2022 at 4:52 am

            Yeah. I’ve a feeling this was a person succumbing to rage/panic because she was desperate about feeding her kid, who may only tolerate an extremely narrow range of foods. Appalling behaviour regardless of the reason, though.
         2. Insert Clever Name Here* December 21, 2022 at 6:32 am

            Yeah. Not that it excuses the coworker, but I agree.
         3. Myrin* December 21, 2022 at 6:53 am

            FWIW, OP clarified in the original comment thread that her coworker isn’t the child’s primary caregiver but rather that her husband is a stay-at-home-parent. Not that non-primary caregivers can’t have burnouts and resulting breakdowns, but re-reading my comments from back then just now I remember that there was quite a bit of “overwhelmed single mother finally snaps under undue pressure” speculation going on in the comments which turned out to not be true at all from several angles.
            1. Lilo* December 21, 2022 at 6:59 am

               I went back and read the comments. She also clarified that both had to go to the hospital, the officer had to take a week off and the clerk was held overnight at thr hospital.

               This was a very violent occurrence. As someone who’s been a minimum wage worker facing the wrath of the public for things outside of my control, I feel most for the poor hourly worker she put in the hospital (and potentially faced a HUGE bill).
               1. CowWhisperer* December 21, 2022 at 8:35 am

                  The bills should be covered by workman’s comp if this happened in the US since the injuries happened while working.

                  Don’t get me wrong; I’m all about a single payer healthcare system – but this is an example of why a universal mandatory insurance policy works well.
                  1. NerdyPrettyThings* December 21, 2022 at 9:50 am

                     That’s true about the medical bills (at least the ones WC decided were reasonable and related to the injury), but in my state/field, work comp only pays 67% of the income from the job where you got injured, and only after the seventh day of missed work. The retail worker definitely lost income, and if she was working more than one job, she could have lost a ton of income.
                     1. Johanna Cabal* December 21, 2022 at 10:09 am

                        And crime victim’s funds can actually have severe restrictions. I read about a state that won’t disburse funds if the victim has a criminal record. The article detailed a man whose father was murdered. He tried to pay for his father’s using money from the state crime victim’s fund but was denied because he had a 20-year-old drug charge.
               2. Random Bystander* December 21, 2022 at 11:46 am

                  Agreed–especially since injuries severe enough to require overnight admission may have lingering effects that never truly go away. While some of these effects may be relatively minor, they’re still there.

                  And while I understand that the co-worker might be really frustrated because of the child’s possible limited diet, facts are that products get discontinued all the time or stores simply stop carrying “item x” because shelf space is limited and the overall sales of that item don’t justify its inclusion on the shelf when “new item y” comes along, or that old faithful item gets the “new, improved” treatment where whatever they did makes the item no longer work. It stinks–but committing a violent crime is never the answer, so my sympathy goes first to the victims of the co-worker’s crimes, then to the others impacted … co-worker is so far down the list that all I can muster is “it’s a shame she behaved so poorly”.
                  1. GreyjoyGardens* December 21, 2022 at 3:40 pm

                     Same here. Products do get discontinued, or “new and improved” which is usually not either, all the time.

                     I *would* have had sympathy for this woman if she had broken down sobbing in the grocery store. That’s an understandable overwhelmed-caregiver reaction. Even if she had merely yelled at the poor clerk – I hate when customer service people are treated badly, and it’s a glassbowl nasty thing to do, but most people don’t get arrested for it.

                     This woman full-on beat up a grocery clerk so badly that the clerk had to go to the ER. There is no excuse, not even caregiver breakdown, for that.
                     1. tangerineRose* December 23, 2022 at 7:48 pm

                        Plus, this certainly wasn’t the clerk’s fault or the police officer’s fault. Horrible to physically attack someone that way.
               3. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 12:35 pm

                  As someone who’s been a minimum wage worker facing the wrath of the public for things outside of my control, I feel most for the poor hourly worker she put in the hospital

                  Yeah, I’ve never been in that position, but I really agree with this. To the point that I was really upset with all of the people who were trying to defend boss and / or “explain” the problem. Because the reality is that this level of violence is not “explained” by care-giver burn out. And the person who most deserves sympathy is the person who we know is not wealthy either (even if Mom *had* been a single mother – which she wasn’t), is working a difficult job and was TOTALLY innocent of any shred of wrongdoing.
            2. Mary* December 21, 2022 at 12:36 pm

               I went back to the original post to OP’s comments, wow, what on earth happened to those poor people that they needed medical care and had to miss weeks of work! That coworker is dangerous.
         4. TomatoSoup* December 21, 2022 at 8:31 am

            Yup. Frustration about having to find a new food their kid would easy was the catalyst but I doubt it was the real cause. It is not an excuse for what she did.

            The US already makes being a parent harder than need be but finding and accessing extra support services can become a job into itself. I used to work in a court where the judge would give defendants the option to sit with someone to see what kind of help/services they might benefit from. I hope someone did that for LWs coworker.

            Still, I wouldn’t write that letter either. If pressed, I’d write that I had worked in the same office as CWer for 5 months and had never witnessed any violence. The judge could then give it the compete lack of weight it deserves just like some writing a professional reference for a social acquaintance.
            1. ferrina* December 21, 2022 at 9:12 am

               This is a great solution. “Dear Judge, To my knowledge Coworker has never burned the building down. I don’t know Coworker well.”
            2. So they all cheap ass rolled over and one fell out* December 21, 2022 at 11:53 am

               I was asked to write a letter (not for a coworker) so I looked it up, and from what I read, to the extent that such letters matter (which is not much), the only thing that count are facts. A personal opinion like “Jane is always super nice” is just not going to carry even a tiny bit of weight. Your hypothetical “I never witnessed any violence” might be the best thing you could actually write, since it’s factual (and assuming it’s true). Maybe with enough of those letters her defense can build a case that it was a one time, out of character moment.
         5. Meep* December 21, 2022 at 10:37 am

            I have sympathy, but it also isn’t the minimum-wage employee’s fault and now they probably have PTSD.
            1. laser99* December 21, 2022 at 2:24 pm

               I have work-related diagnosed PTSD. It is much more common than the average person would expect, and of course it is underreported.
      3. Myrin* December 21, 2022 at 3:35 am

         From my experience working at a store (and my sister’s much greater experience of working at stores career-wise), there’s usually not much thinking going on in a situation like that, just (re-)acting. Oftentimes, the customer is (literally) kicking and screaming and throwing stuff and whatnot and they don’t stop just because it’s a police officer approaching them.
         1. Meep* December 21, 2022 at 10:34 am

            I worked at a grocery store in an affluent area (on the boarder of Carefree and North Scottsdale for those who know) and while I never have experienced a violent customer, I did have several throw tantrums and one thief over the most ridiculous of things. Surprisingly, the one time I was sent out to cashier at a poorer area the people were the absolute sweetest and least problematic.

            (fun examples: organic strawberries being $1.99 and regular being $0.99 (the thief who called me stupid on my first day as a bagger, ffs), the lady who complained to my boss about me being rude because I interrupted her five minute long tirade about how I was trying to scam her because she hadn’t given her loyalty card yet and didn’t get 10% off her $200 bottles of wine, someone upset a stalk of celery was $0.01 cheaper at the Fry’s closer to her house when gas was $5, a man upset that the screen prompted for donations and berated me for it, a woman who was upset I was too cheerful the day before Thanksgiving (it was my last day working, I was there as a courtesy), and of course, the overtly sexist lady who screamed at me because my male coworker make a joke while I was out of earshot)
      4. Darlingpants* December 21, 2022 at 9:19 am

         It sounds like the details added below are worse than this, but struggling during arrest (either because you’re panicking, they’re being violent to you, or you’re trying to get away) often gets turned into the charge “assaulting a police officer.”
         1. Myrin* December 21, 2022 at 9:52 am

            Sure, but like you say, in this case, it really was a bona fide assault: the officer had to get treated at a hospital and then was unable to work for a whole week. Not to speak of the poor cashier, who had to stay at the hospital and couldn’t work for several weeks! I really wonder what on earth the coworker did exactly to leave such a path of destruction.
   2. Jen* December 21, 2022 at 6:34 am

      To be blunt: no one’s really going to care about those letters. People bring them all the time and just avout anyone can find friends/family to write them. The judge will consider her caregiver obligations and record but also the details of the crime.
      1. Felicia* December 21, 2022 at 8:30 am

         I have mandatory 2 weeks off over Christmas and New Years and I used to dread it . I realized for me it’s not because I love work or have no hobbies or interests (none of that is true) it was because of loneliness. I live alone and most of my friends/family either have to work during that time or have plans relating to the holidays with their families(I don’t celebrate Christmas and never did much for new years). Especially since 2020 i think a lot of people can understand the loneliness of no human contact for 2 weeks is(or far longer but I find even two weeks too much). And a mandatory two weeks off when everyone you know has to work can be very lonely if you live alone. Which is why i liked the volunteering suggestion! I try daytime meetups too during my mandatory vacation.
         1. TomatoSoup* December 21, 2022 at 8:37 am

            I’ve also filled some of that time with meeting working friends for lunch. It’s much easier to plan when only accommodating one work schedule and potentially the non working person can pick up a food order ahead of time.

            That said, I have difficulty relating to this since I’m quite happy with just my own company. Also, I have two little kids so waking up knowing the whole day is my own sounds like a delight.
         2. Felicia* December 21, 2022 at 8:42 am

            That was a nesting fail I did not mean this as a reply to anything!
         3. Elsajeni* December 21, 2022 at 1:07 pm

            I know this comment got misplaced, but it’s what I was thinking, too — especially since the OP was young and in their first job, I wonder if they didn’t know a lot of people where they lived yet, so a mandatory two weeks off where they’re restricted from contacting coworkers would really mean almost no human contact. If I were them, I might take the offer to move it a few months later; at least that gives you some time to plan for it and look up activities you might like to do!
   3. Auga* December 21, 2022 at 6:51 am

      Very few people know what it is like caring for a severely autistic child with no or little support. Perhaps she’s a terrible person. Or perhaps she’s been driven past her coping point and no one has stepped in.
      1. Appletini* December 21, 2022 at 11:34 am

         Grocery store employees do not sign up to be punching bags.
         1. Auga* December 21, 2022 at 12:18 pm

            At no point did I say they do!
            1. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 12:45 pm

               Except that you are implying that people are being insufficiently sympathetic to the person who actually used the employee as a literal punching bag.

               When you add in the fact that this woman was not a single mom with no support, your comment is . . . not good.
               1. Auga* December 21, 2022 at 6:47 pm

                  You know, it’s possible to think that what happened to the employee is not acceptable AND that there was insufficient support for this woman. Thinking things are always black and white is…not good.
      2. Totally Minnie* December 21, 2022 at 11:51 am

         And that would be a reason to cry in the grocery store. It would not be a reason to assault a grocery store worker so severely that they needed an overnight stay in a hospital.
         1. GreyjoyGardens* December 21, 2022 at 3:41 pm

            Exactly! A bout of inconsolable sobbing is understandable. Sending a worker to the hospital is not.
      3. Keymaster of Gozer* December 21, 2022 at 12:12 pm

         The thing is, it doesn’t matter what her trigger was. She beat up two people badly enough that they needed to go to hospital.

         Violence at that level can’t be justified as having the stress of an autistic kid. I’m sympathetic that the loved ones of people with severe mental things going on have a very hard job (ask my husband) but if that progresses to beating others up then I’m sorry but that IS a terrible person.
   4. Anon for this one* December 21, 2022 at 9:01 am

      Cops can have a very loose definition of “assaulting a police officer”. Without knowing details you don’t know if it’s an actual attack or if she was struggling while being handcuffed and elbowed him inadvertently.
      1. ferrina* December 21, 2022 at 9:14 am

         Yeah, there’s a lot of details about this story that could either give me sympathy or disgust for coworker. But there’s no question that coworker acted badly (assaulting a retail clerk) and that the demand for LW (who barely knows Coworker) to be involved is inappropriate.
      2. Caaan Do!* December 21, 2022 at 9:30 am

         The OP clarified in the comments at the time that the assault was violent enough that the cashier was hospitalised overnight and the police officer was hospitalised for a week.
         1. Hlao-roo* December 21, 2022 at 11:14 am

            Just to clarify: the police officer was treated at the hospital and then missed a week of work (but was not in the hospital for a week).
            1. Caaan Do!* December 21, 2022 at 11:32 am

               oops, yeah, I had a brain fart and said hospitalised twice instead of saying ‘was off work for a week’. Thanks :)
      3. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 12:46 pm

         Without knowing details you don’t know if it’s an actual attack or if she was struggling while being handcuffed and elbowed him inadvertently.

         We actually do know that – the officer wound up in the hospital and had to take off work. And police departments are not known for giving cops off for a week because they got elbowed.
   5. Abogado Avocado* December 21, 2022 at 12:04 pm

      I’ve read these comments and it appears that no one here has been a caregiver for a child with serious autism nor understands the stress these families are under. Unless you are very wealthy or live in a paradise where the government provides ample assistance and respite care — and, trust me, that paradise isn’t the United States — families are very much on their own in dealing with an autistic child’s extremely difficult behavior and needs. Thus, I’d ask that, just for one tiny moment, you put yourself in that mother’s shoes and think about how badly her day in caring for her child must have gone for her to end up assaulting two people.

      Additionally, I have represented people who have been charged with assault on a police officer, and unless it is aggravated assault (meaning resulting in injury), assault in that context can be as little as laying a hand on the officer’s arm when s/he is trying to handcuff you or pushing his hands away. (Know also that your mileage may vary depending on your race and gender.)

      This is not to excuse the assaults – and the boss wasn’t seeking to do that. Rather, he was seeking to mitigate the punishment by giving the judge additional context about the mother from those who knew her. And that’s why punishment hearings are held: because the criminal justice system understands that people are more than the sum total of an act they committed on the worst day of their lives and, frequently, family, friends, and co-workers provide that context.

      In this case, the LW couldn’t provide that context and did not want to participate. Which is
      quite alright, too.

      What I object to here is the lack of compassion for someone who, but for the grace of God, go any of us.
      1. Roland* December 21, 2022 at 12:32 pm

         What comments do you think show a lack of understanding or compassion? Most are just saying “it’s not okay to to assault people” which you seem to agree with.
         1. compassionista* December 21, 2022 at 1:31 pm

            There does seem to be an implication in many comments of “Well, if this coworker isn’t a single mom stretched to the max, then she shouldn’t have *made this very deliberate and conscious decision* to assault people.” There’s a whole lot of room for both-and, and there’s nothing inconsistent about recognizing she may have been struggling while not endorsing violence.
      2. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 1:02 pm

         Thus, I’d ask that, just for one tiny moment, you put yourself in that mother’s shoes and think about how badly her day in caring for her child must have gone for her to end up assaulting two people.

         Nope. For one thing, some people on here actually do have some experience. For me, I know people who had to deal with this stuff (not autism, but other deep issues) at a time when there was a LOT less support for parents, and they were essentially expected to “warehouse” their “damaged” children. Not one of them would even have acted with this level of violence.

         Additionally, I have represented people who have been charged with assault on a police officer, and unless it is aggravated assault (meaning resulting in injury)

         Which this was. The officer had to go to the hospital, was kept overnight and then was out of work for a week. That’s a genuine assault.
         1. Chinookwind* December 21, 2022 at 2:47 pm

            My husband is a police office and I have seen the PPE he wears to keep himself safe (and it is standard for his organization) as well as the self defense and restraint training they should have (unless the cop is incompetent). If he were to be injured enough to be hospitalized overnight, that means that the assailant did more than struggle in hand cuffs or resist arrest.

            On top of the severity of injury to two people the person managed to inflict, they also showed their flagrant disregard for human life or awareness of how her actions affect others. Knowing this little but about the OP’s coworker, I would be reluctant to do anything near them that could cause them to react negatively. Could you imagine giving that woman a negative work review? Or turning down a request for raise? Who knows how she would react if the world some how shows that it doesn’t revolve around her. (Of course her life is difficult, but does she know if the people she injured also have difficult home lives that she has now mad immensely worse? Would it even matter to her)
         2. Lilo* December 21, 2022 at 3:46 pm

            How about you put yourself in the shoes of the person who was put in the hospital?

            My compassion ends at deliberate harm to other people.
      3. Bookartist* December 21, 2022 at 3:12 pm

         I’ve been in this situation for 20 years and I promise you, I know how that woman felt. Fear of the consequences once you tell your child they can’t ever have their food/toy/treat again. But you still can’t lash out physically; for one thing, you’ll lose any sympathy you’d otherwise get. Maybe it’s because I *have* been in her shoes and chosen to not hit the person delivering the bad news, but I’m not feeling a lack of compassion in these comments.
      4. Appletini* December 21, 2022 at 3:40 pm

         it appears that no one here has been a caregiver for a child with serious autism nor understands the stress these families are under.

         You are flat out wrong. I have actually been in the exact situation of unexpectedly finding out about the unavailability of an item vital to the diet of an autistic child with ARFID whom I care for. that I should have to submit my family to your judgement in order to say that a minimum wage grocery store worker does not deserve to be beaten up.
      5. GreyjoyGardens* December 21, 2022 at 3:51 pm

         Aside from what everyone else has said that there is NO excuse to punch out a service worker so bad they needed to go to the hospital, it does not sound like coworkers can provide much context in this instance. “I worked with Jane for X years and there were no problems” doesn’t say much. Family, close friends, maybe even a boss, could be a better character witness than someone she interacted with superficially, which tells you nothing. Plenty of people are “kiss up, kick down” types who will mistreat people they don’t think they have to be nice to – service workers, their own spouses and kids, etc.
      6. LilPinkSock* December 21, 2022 at 6:46 pm

         With all due respect, you have no idea what experiences any of us have had that may cause complete caregiver burnout—and how many of us did not choose violence.

         The coworker put two people in the hospital, I wouldn’t be too keen on writing a sentencing letter on her behalf either.
      7. Sandgroper.* December 21, 2022 at 9:03 pm

         I am a parent of a child with a moderate level of Autism (and a bunch of other alphabet letters too), and thus am also surrounded by a bunch of other ‘therapy families’ who I’ve met. Some of these other children are ‘severe’, some of them so severe they are violent, not toilet trained and abusive.

         NONE of these parents would assault multiple people. ALL of them/us deal with heavily restricted eating profiles (to the point of being funded for eating programs and having kids officially in “failure to thrive” at 11 and 12!), and have to deal with food issues daily. EVERY ONE OF US has years of broken sleep, lost income, significant pressures in our marriages/relationships, siblings that need to be held together and have their needs met around the child with ASD and so on.

         Autism is not an excuse to be a donkey. Not for the person with it, and not for the people caring for them, and not for people who don’t want to stand next to someone who has ASD. Autism can make things incredibly frustrating, difficult and complex for everyone in the vicinity of it (not all the time, but in varying degrees), but if we are actually humans, with human hearts and minds, we realise that life is even harder for the person with ASD, who is in this state of discomfort through no action of their own, and thus we SUCK IT UP.

         Repeat after me: Autism is not a reason to be an ass.
      8. Giant Kitty* December 22, 2022 at 4:48 am

         Yes, I have, and I have NEVER assaulted anyone because of it.
6. Fedpants* December 21, 2022 at 12:46 am

   For #4, I could see the frustration if it “I was assigned these two weeks in May, but I’d rather take my two weeks in August.” But it seems like the boss offered that. I remember those early career days, when there was negative money to spare, even for gas for a day trip.

   Depending on where you are, you may be able to find various free things: outdoor concerts, etc.
   1. MK* December 21, 2022 at 1:12 am

      I understand, but pushing back on a mandatory policy to avoid boredom is not a good look, and it comes across as very immature. Your boss is not the parent to toddler you, and it’s not their job to make sure you aren’t bored. Also, boredom is part of life, frankly; if you aren’t allowed to work (mandatory leave) and can’t find something to do within your budget, well, you stay home and be bored. It’s not something you can or should ask your boss to address.
      1. allathian* December 21, 2022 at 1:33 am

         Yup, absolutely.

         There’s always something to do around the house/apartment. Granted, if you live in a studio or one-bedroom apartment that isn’t filled past capacity with clutter, it’s quickly cleaned.

         But volunteering for something during the day is definitely a possibility if you can’t afford to travel and if your mental health suffers when you aren’t doing stuff all the time. For some people, change really is as good as a rest!
         1. Ellis Bell* December 21, 2022 at 2:04 am

            Yeah, I always appreciate a good rest but if rest is not restful, there’s always deep cleaning and cupboard organisation.
         2. kendall^2* December 21, 2022 at 11:01 am

            Also, public libraries have a wealth of resources, including things like museum passes, lectures, concerts, and more, in addition to things one can borrow….
      2. Emmy Noether* December 21, 2022 at 2:25 am

         As someone who’s had the opposite problem all my adult life (not enough free time to do the milion things I want to do), I’m having trouble scrounging up empathy for someone who’s bored. I don’t think I’ve been bored since like… 1994? Ever since I could read, take walks, do puzzles, and craft independently.

         However, is it possible that this LW is living alone? Two weeks of being home with no human contact don’t sound great, even to introvert me. Maybe LW misidentified the problem as just boredom when it’s more isolation. Most of the (nearly) free ideas I had in mind to combat boredom are also kind of solitary. In that case, Alison’s volunteering suggestion could be a solution.
         1. Curmudgeon in California* December 21, 2022 at 11:37 am

            See, I would never have had that problem when I was living alone. If I had paid time off, even if I had no extra money for travel or entertainment, I would have a) cleaned my apartment, b) borrowed books from the library to read, and/or c) gone walking/riding on some of the local trails. Sleeping in and staying up late would have happened too.
      3. Fedpants* December 21, 2022 at 9:41 am

         Oh, I agree pushing back on “I get 4 weeks of vacation, 2 of which have to be taken consecutively” is absurd. Especially if your “regular” PTO continues to bump up at the standard 3/5/10 year intervals. But I’m also trying to look at it from the perspective I’d have had when I was 25 and living in studio apartment, bad internet, and no savings; not a 40 year old with a house. These days, a two week staycation sounds amazing. Sleep late, watch cat videos on my phone, play dumb match-3 games, read a book, rearrange the furniture, sort the closet for donations, etc).

         There’s the practicality of things like walk-up volunteer training: a lot of times you need to attend a volunteer orientation before you can start doing things, so 2 weeks might not be enough time if you weren’t already working with them. And I’m spoiled living in DC, so nearly all the museums are free and there’s huge numbers of self-guided walking tours. Because I’m old and have spent 20 years honing my hobbies, I’d find it fun to sit and play with all my craft supplies – but again, a 25 year old might not have the ‘stash’ (or the skill that it’s rewarding — even now I don’t like doing crafts I’m not good at, even if I know that if I did them more I’d get good at them, and when I was 25 I didn’t have the money to buy the supplies to spend 2 weeks making ugly crap).

         So, in all: I can imagine some of the barriers the OP was feeling. But agree it’s a “complain to your friends” situation, not your boss (/especially/ because the boss offered different two weeks so you could make plans!). Although, again, normal people know how to waste time, so it might really be tone deaf. My wallet’s too small for these $50s and my diamond shoes are too tight!
   2. Ellis Bell* December 21, 2022 at 2:03 am

      I can understand people not having money to do special things, but people should have an ordinary life and interests outside of work! Have these people not heard of books and walks? Long breakfasts? I really wonder what people used to do during the long holidays you get as a kid off school. That’s typically the time when you learn to deal with boredom and figure out what you do when no one is scheduling you. If you didn’t learn it then, then I guess you’re stuck learning it now.
      1. Keymaster of Gozer* December 21, 2022 at 4:47 am

         I’m one who literally cannot stand having nothing to do and much prefer being at work. It took a long time for me to realise that I require a pretty involved thing to do outside of work.

         So sewing or playing on the computer combined with watching a video is ideal. I really do live to work! Passive stuff like reading or such doesn’t work and walking is out of the question. I do not like being alone with my brain.

         Took me till I was 30 to realise how to spend downtime, so there’s plenty of time for letter writer!
      2. RandomNameAllocated* December 21, 2022 at 4:54 am

         A rather terrifying teacher when I was about 8 or 9 used to say : only boring people are ever bored!
         1. Totally Minnie* December 21, 2022 at 9:29 am

            My grandmother’s version was “there’s no reason for an intelligent child such as yourself to be bored” which I assume was code for “if you want something to do, figure it out.
         2. Just Your Everyday Crone* December 21, 2022 at 9:36 am

            As a person with ADHD, I hate that saying. We get enough shame thrown at us for being ND without being called boring also.
            1. stone cold chili pepper* December 21, 2022 at 11:59 am

               I get bored sometimes even when doing multiple things at once. But fine, I’m the boring one
      3. allathian* December 21, 2022 at 6:05 am

         Older gen-Zs are already in the workforce. Many members of that generation have had their lives scheduled to the minute pretty much since they were in daycare, and they’ve never had to learn to deal with boredom properly. Many of them have also had access to smartphones since their early or mid-teens, so they’ve never lived without access to instant entertainment, unlike older generations. I guess it also applies to younger millennials to a lesser extent.

         Normally I dislike generalizations related to age, because many people in their 80s are more tech savvy than young people, as an example, but I think that access to instant entertainment in your pocket has created a paradigm shift when we’re discussing people’s ability to tolerate boredom.

         I also live with a smartphone by my side most of the time I’m awake, and my tolerance for boredom has gone down as a consequence, but I can still remember what it was like to deal with boredom when I was a kid and teen, and young adult. My mom was a SAHM until my younger sister started school, and even then she didn’t start working FT until I was 12 and my sister was 10. We learned early to entertain ourselves, a complaint of “Mom, I’m so bored!” would just get me more chores to do. I bought my first dumb cellphone when I was 26, and my first smartphone when I was 39 or 40.
         1. I should really pick a name* December 21, 2022 at 6:58 am

            I don’t think this is an age thing. You’ll find people of all generations who don’t know what to do with free time. Even if they didn’t start using smartphones until later in life.

            The retired person who doesn’t know what to do with themselves is a stereotype that’s been around for ages.
         2. Irish Teacher* December 21, 2022 at 7:22 am

            Yeah, as a teacher, this is the one difference I do see from my own schooldays. All the other things people say about “young people these days” do not fit with my experience at all, but I do have students who will complain even during break about can they go back in to class yet or who get bored within ten minutes of a “free class” unless they are either allowed to go on their phones or the teacher organises something, whereas we would have been complaining about can’t we stay out for break longer, do we have to go back to class.

            I think it is a combination of phones (I also definitely have much less tolerance for boredom than I had when I was say 20 and used to waiting maybe 40 minutes for somebody I had arranged to meet and who was running late with no way to tell me) and more kids growing up in families where both parents work and therefore being more likely to be in organised activities.

            But still not a reason to argue against mandatory time off. It’s one thing to ask your teacher to organise a game of hangman because you can’t find something to do for a class period. It’s another to ask your boss to let you work for the two weeks mandatory time off because you can’t.
      4. metadata minion* December 21, 2022 at 8:47 am

         I find it much easier to manage my time when I have some constraints on it. I’m in academia and get between Christmas and New Year’s off, and almost every year I make Grand Plans to finally clean the apartment and get X project done and etc., and I pretty much always just end up puttering around and playing video games, but also not seriously *enjoying* the chance to have a Skyrim marathon.

         Boredom is also how depression can manifest for many people. It makes everything boring and too much effort and bleah.
         1. Just Your Everyday Crone* December 21, 2022 at 9:39 am

            Anxiety and ADHD can also result in wanting to have something to do all the time, and ADHD often makes it hard to figure out what without some structure.
         2. Bunny Lake Is Found* December 21, 2022 at 11:57 am

            I agree with the need for structure…I think it also happens when one’s Grand Plans involve things that one doesn’t normally do or doesn’t like to do (cleaning), so estimates on how long a project takes or what it will require, combined with a failure to fully recognize that on the day there may be a lack of motivation to undertake it, cause many elements of Grand Plan to get thrown overboard for, say, re-watching that TV show from the mid 2000s you’ve definitely seen twenty times.
      5. doreen* December 21, 2022 at 9:08 am

         I don’t have any problem figuring out what do to now that I have retired ( and none of them involve commitments) but there’s a difference between not having interests outside of work/not knowing what to do with free time and disliking solitude. There are plenty of days I don’t really have a conversation with anyone other than my husband – I’m OK with that , but some people would go out of their minds. There’s a big difference between school vacations and vacations from work – when I was in school , all my friends were on vacation at roughly the same time. That didn’t happen once I started working , not unless it was planned that way and even then, it wouldn’t always work out.
   3. So they all cheap ass rolled over and one fell out* December 21, 2022 at 11:48 am

      LW4 could use the two weeks off on gig work, as many of the two weeks as necessary for her to save up some cash to fund a vacation. Another option is to spend time on things that will reduce her expenses (like weatherproofing her house, just as one example) or increase her income (training classes), and then save up the extra disposable income in the vacation fund.
7. BlackLodge* December 21, 2022 at 1:07 am

   Can someone explain how this works as a fraud prevention technique? I’m unfamiliar with it.
   1. BlackLodge* December 21, 2022 at 1:08 am

      This is re: #4, derp.
      1. KAZ2Y5* December 21, 2022 at 1:22 am

         I’m not in finance, but from my understanding if someone else has to do your job for 1-2 weeks there is a good chance they will catch it if you are doing something fraudulent.
         1. Kevin Sours* December 21, 2022 at 1:25 am

            Or, at least get to the “hey that’s funny” stage. But really the hope is that the threat of being out two weeks and having a coworker take over your paperwork will be a deterrent to even trying it.
         2. Sheworkshardforthemoney* December 21, 2022 at 3:11 am

            That’s how a co-worker who had child porn on their work computer was caught. They were away and someone needed a file and went searching for it. The person was fired, had charges filed and received jail time.
            1. Yoyoyo* December 21, 2022 at 8:43 am

               Yikes, that’s awful but glad they were caught. I feel for the person who stumbled upon it though.
   2. MK* December 21, 2022 at 1:20 am

      Industries that have these policies, like banking, have set procedures in place to prevent fraud. Circumventing these procedures usually requires the perpetrator to be on site to continue the fraud and prevent it’s coming put. E.g., if an investment consultant took a client’s money and, instead of investing them in a fund, siphoned it away to their own account, they need to be always dealing with this client themselves to give them false assurances their money is where it’s supposed to be. If the client randomly comes in and asks to see the condition of their account, the fraud will come out. Or if they embezzled the bank’s money, they usually need to keep moving funds around to make sure no one realizes some are missing.
   3. raincoaster* December 21, 2022 at 1:20 am

      It gives other people two weeks to sniff around your accounts, and two weeks for fragile fraud-related houses of cards to crumble without constant maintenance. That’s all I can think of, and I used to be a crime reporter. Sounds like a pretty easy way to do it, assuming you don’t let the employee choose the two weeks, and don’t give them much notice.
      1. Emmy Noether* December 21, 2022 at 3:59 am

         I think it’s simpler than that – even with notice, a lot of fraudsters aren’t great at covering their tracks*, and just someone else taking over their job/files/clients (without even looking for fraud explicitly!) has a good chance of uncovering things. And knowing someone else will look at your stuff can be a deterrent in itself.

         The way I’ve seen it done it was just an obligation to take some of your PTO in a two-week block. So the company is getting a chance at uncovering fraud at no cost to them.

         *remember, a lot of criminals aren’t particularly smart. They are also rather prone to taking risks, by definition.
         1. Lady_Lessa* December 21, 2022 at 6:00 am

            Even without fraud, I enjoy doing the work of our QC tech when he is out. I find out all sorts of problems. Correcting them is a different matter. (It’s more of having trouble finding the results from previous batches vs letting bad product out the door.)
   4. Keymaster of Gozer* December 21, 2022 at 2:17 am

      Basically it’s a lot easier to analyse a system when nobody is using it.

      Having staff not in means they can’t cover their tracks or do anything shady.

      My sibling is a financial consultant and said once that it’s like working to strip down a car engine in that you don’t do it while it’s running or someone is driving the car.
   5. Richard Hershberger* December 21, 2022 at 5:52 am

      A fictional example, from a novel I don’t recall the name or author of from decades back: A stalwart pillar of the church, who has been the treasurer for many years, is so faithful that he attends every single week without fail, even flying back into town when on vacation. Then he comes down sick for a couple of weeks. It turns out that when someone else is counting the collection plate, the giving is much, much higher. A well run church has two people counting the plate, and not the same two every week. This is the equivalent of the two weeks off policy.
      1. Falling Diphthong* December 21, 2022 at 9:56 am

         I recall a mystery novel that had a similar theme re anonymous cash donations to a charity. It was usually a certain percentage of total donations, and Dubious Charity being below that immediately raised audit questions.
   6. Waffles* December 21, 2022 at 7:53 am

      One example was the trader Nick Leeson at Barings bank. He made increasingly large and risky trades to cover losses and he ultimately bankrupted the institution. Having to pass his trade book to a colleague to cover his two-week leave could have uncovered this behaviour before it became as big as it did.

      But it could be something much smaller too. And banks now take this so seriously that asking for an exception would be a huge red flag.
   7. doreen* December 21, 2022 at 8:01 am

      Rita Crundwell stole $30 million from the city she worked for by opening a bank account that sounded like an account owned by the city and siphoning money into it for 22 years. Although there were other problems ( including that the auditors just signed off on her financial statements because they trusted her) , it was discovered when Crundwell was on an extended vacation and the person filling in discovered the bank account and started asking questions. The other piece of the fraud prevention technique is that it’s not just that the person takes one or two consecutive weeks off- it’s that someone else fills in for them rather than letting the work wait. Crundwell stole this money over 22 years and this was not the first time she took a vacation ( she was involved in breeding and showing horses) , but it probably was the first time someone filled in.
      1. Falling Diphthong* December 21, 2022 at 9:59 am

         … Wow.

         Like, stop at $28 million and take that vacation to a non-extradition country, transferring the money to a shady account just as you leave.
         1. Bunny Lake Is Found* December 21, 2022 at 12:33 pm

            See, the horse showing/breeding kind of explains to me why she didn’t stop earlier. It is a hobby that I have seen send folks earning in the mid six figures struggle to pay for just all basic the costs. I imagine if you were really going all in it would get very expensive very fast.
      2. Johanna Cabal* December 21, 2022 at 10:12 am

         Rita Crundwell was the first person I thought of.
   8. Madame Arcati* December 21, 2022 at 8:12 am

      It’s basically to stop a situation where Fergus is the only person that ever deals with such and such a task. If Fergus has to take leave, someone else signs off on otter grooming expense claims and notices the difference to the budget…
   9. Sylvan* December 21, 2022 at 9:59 am

      A state official where I live was caught when she took a long vacation, someone covered her role temporarily, they saw a strange transaction, and they unraveled the whole scheme. While the person committing fraud was on a vacation paid for with fraud.
8. Daisy* December 21, 2022 at 1:14 am

   Letter writer – I wouldn’t want to write that letter either.
   FWIW my understanding is these types of letters (especially from distant acquaintances) don’t have any impact on the judge’s decision. Unless you were a witness to the event or have specialized knowledge of the interaction it is pretty much a waste of time. I would put it off indefinitely. If the boss stood over me insisting on a letter it would be as bland as possible “I worked with X three times in the past five years for a total of 12 days and had no issues.”
   1. MK* December 21, 2022 at 1:27 am

      Yes, that’s been my experience working in the court system (not in the U.S.) for 15 years and as a lawyer for 5 before that. Prior good conduct does affect sentencing, but usually you need to show that the crime was an exception to an otherwise law-abiding and socially useful life (no poenal record, extensive volunteering, extraordinary good past deeds), not random coworkers saying you are an ok person.
   2. WS* December 21, 2022 at 1:55 am

      Yes, a letter from a random co-worker is a waste of everyone’s time. A letter from the boss (especially a long-term boss) is valuable so I’m suspecting that the boss was asked and got over-excited about it and thought that more letters would be even better.
      1. MK* December 21, 2022 at 3:12 am

         Maybe, though the judges in my country at least mostly give weight to “relevant” recommendations. A letter from a longtime boss praising your trustworthiness is valuable if you are accused of, say, theft; if it’s about domestic violence, it’s considered largely meaningless.
         1. Emmy Noether* December 21, 2022 at 3:28 am

            This sounds sensible. It’s really common for domestic abusers especially to be perfectly charming outside the home. Makes it that much harder for the victim to escape.

            In this case, a letter from work does sound slightly relevant – at least to confirm that the employee has never shown violent tendencies there. One should really suffice though (how many people need to say “she never hit anyone at work”?).

            The most relevant to the case would be from service workers she regularly interacts with as a customer – but that seems like it would be harder to get.
            1. MK* December 21, 2022 at 3:38 am

               A professor of mine used to say that, actually, a liar isn’t always a liar or a cheat always a cheat. I know conventional wisdom says that a dishonest person might be so in all areas of life, but in practice humans are more complicated than that; many people are scrupulously honest with money but cheat on their partners, or are wonderful spouces and parents but horrible to work with.
               1. Emmy Noether* December 21, 2022 at 4:29 am

                  I agree. Most people aren’t all-good or all-rotten, but somewhere in between.

                  It’s possible this person is violent in all aspects of life. It’s also possible that they have it generally under control, but treat service workers like crap. And it’s possible that this was a one-time, totally uncharacteristic breakdown…

                  Whether or not all that should be taken into consideration in sentencing is an interesting philosophical question. It appears that generally the consensus is yes.
                  1. UKDancer* December 21, 2022 at 4:46 am

                     People are amazingly able to compartmentalise behaviours and separate who they are at work from who they are at home. One of my former colleagues worked with someone who was convicted of several murders. Up until his arrest nobody had the least suspicion. My colleague said the guy was fine to work with, a bit quiet and withdrawn but not violent or unpleasant. He wasn’t killing his colleagues and they didn’t see what he did outside the office. When he was arrested it was a complete surprise to everyone because they all thought he wasn’t “the type.”

                     We only ever see a small part of people in the workplace after all.
                     1. Nobby Nobbs* December 21, 2022 at 6:21 am

                        I hope this person is able to compartmentalize and only be horrible to service workers. That sounds like an awfully vulnerable kid.
                     2. WellRed* December 21, 2022 at 7:33 am

                        My goodness. They worked with an actual serial killer!
         2. Jen* December 21, 2022 at 6:39 am

            She committed battery on two people, one a law enforcement officer. She’s in trouble and the letters aren’t going to change that.

            As someone who worked for a judge I seriously doubt those letter will have any effect. Some very targeted letters from individuals (but really someone willing to show up would be maybe more valuable, even then).
      2. Bilateralrope* December 21, 2022 at 4:36 am

         How much value would the bosses letter lose if the judge found out that the boss was ordering other employees to write letters of support ?

         Because, if I were in the letter writers position, I’d probably quickly write up a completely honest letter if my first attempts at pushback failed (probably an email to the boss, ccing the lawyer). Being sure to include that I barely know the coworker and that I’ve been ordered to send it.
   3. Keymaster of Gozer* December 21, 2022 at 2:23 am

      Yep, there was a lot of good comments in the original thread from PCBH who I believe is a lawyer saying that these kind of letters would be at best just annoying.

      https://www.askamanager.org/2018/04/my-boss-is-super-peppy-hr-told-me-to-do-less-for-our-charity-event-and-more.html#comment-1934580
   4. Bagpuss* December 21, 2022 at 3:53 am

      Yes, I think it would only be relevant if it had a link to the offences.
      I remember sitting in court as a very young lawyer at a sentencing hearing involving a young man who had committed offences involving threatening and rstraining several of his forer cowokers. Several of his current and former coworkers gave statements on his behalf and I think they did have an impact on the sentence, particularly those of the victims, but those of the new coworkers were I think relvant both as it added to the evidence that he had made huge efforts since the offence was committed, and had managed to get a new job which of course he would lose if he were imprisoned, and because they were arguably the most likely to be at risk if he were to do something similar again.

      but had it been any other type of offence, I doubt that letters or evidence from his new coworkers that he was a hard worker andgot on well with eveyone would have made much, if any difference.
   5. Madame Arcati* December 21, 2022 at 8:21 am

      Here in the U.K. letters attesting to the defendant being a stand up guy etc might be taken into account by the judge (although not to a startling extent; all info is considered together; and certainly these circs/letter from a random colleague wouldn’t do much ) BUT as well as mitigation by the defence lawyers, the prosecution will also be putting their side and presenting similar letters; victim impact statements. So there’d be a letter from the poor grocery store worker detailing how much pain she was in for days from having her elbow bones pinned, how she’s scared of seeing the defendant in town and can’t bring herself to walk to work so has to get her son to drop her off – all the effects this has had on her and the reason why you shouldn’t assault people! I should think there’s something similar in the states, and a statement like the above carries much more weight than “I’ve worked with Jane a month and she seems nice enough”.
9. raincoaster* December 21, 2022 at 1:19 am

   SURELY it’s illegal for an employer to force employees to testify or write letters or anything like that. It cannot possibly be a genuine job function, and it looks a lot like a business trying to interfere in a sentencing (because that’s what it is).
   1. FashionablyEvil* December 21, 2022 at 7:06 am

      Nah, I think it’s in the “crappy and ill-conceived but not illegal” category. (As much of the ridiculous employer behavior we hear about in letters is.)
   2. Delta Delta* December 21, 2022 at 8:29 am

      It’s not illegal and it’s not interfering with anything. Might be a little tone deaf, but it’s not illegal.
   3. Just Your Everyday Crone* December 21, 2022 at 9:47 am

      It would be better in general if people understood what rights they have and don’t have in the workplace. And “interfere in a sentencing” is not a thing. Defendants are allowed to provide evidence regarding the sentence.
   4. Cthulhu's Librarian* December 21, 2022 at 10:20 am

      Regretfully, the only employer who is legally forbidden from compelling speech is the government.

      Other employers may be curtailed on compelling speech on certain topics – but those are very specific limitations, and sadly nowhere near broad enough (see the recent letter about an employer using the employees’ bonus money to make political contributions).
   5. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 1:18 pm

      SURELY it’s illegal for an employer to force employees to testify or write letters or anything like that. It cannot possibly be a genuine job function, and it looks a lot like a business trying to interfere in a sentencing (because that’s what it is).

      Why would any of this be illegal? Bosses can require people to do anything they want unless that action would otherwise be illegal (eg you can’t force someone to commit perjury.) And it’s perfectly legal for the business to try to *influence* sentencing. This is not interference – no one is threatening the judge or trying to stop the sentencing from happening, or anything like that. And it’s ok to try to influence things as long as it done legally and no bribery is involved.

      Not that it makes the boss’ behavior OK. But there are many not OK things (some pretty horrible things, in fact) that are completely legal.
      1. JM60* December 22, 2022 at 8:10 am

         Influencing sentencing with a genuine letter isn’t interference. However, I’d argue that influencing sentencing with misleading letters can interfere with the judge giving a proper sentencing, and that employees in this circumstance may feel pressured to write misleadingly positive letters in this circumstance.

         Making employees write letters of support for a convict probably isn’t illegal, but it certainly should be IMO.
10. Pennyworth* December 21, 2022 at 1:22 am

    Am I the only one to mis-read the #2 heading as ‘My boss is super PREPPY’?
    1. allathian* December 21, 2022 at 1:34 am

       No, I did the same thing and it got me scratching my head until I read the letter.
    2. Pibble* December 21, 2022 at 5:52 am

       I read it as SUPER PUPPY and was deeply disappointed by the lack of puppies in the letter!
       1. Jackalope* December 21, 2022 at 8:31 am

          I too saw the word puppy, and was disappointed.
       2. ferrina* December 21, 2022 at 9:17 am

          lol! I want to read that letter!
       3. JustAnotherKate* December 21, 2022 at 2:13 pm

          Lol, we DNA’d one of the dogs and he was found to be a Supermutt — so many breeds they couldn’t identify every one. I will now be calling him SUPER PUPPY forever. Perhaps a bandanna with this legend? (Sorry for derail but thanks for idea!)
       4. tangerineRose* December 23, 2022 at 9:51 pm

          I didn’t, but now I’m sad the boss isn’t a super puppy.
    3. Twill* December 21, 2022 at 6:37 am

       No, I did too. And I was a little disappointed that it wasn’t that.
    4. Opectedit* December 21, 2022 at 6:38 am

       I’m with you. I was all ready to read about the pink and green clothes.
    5. WellRed* December 21, 2022 at 7:35 am

       Me too!
    6. Phony Genius* December 21, 2022 at 9:01 am

       I saw “Super Peppa” and pictured a pig.
    7. Just Your Everyday Crone* December 21, 2022 at 9:48 am

       “If I have to look at one more pair of cords with whales embroidered on them, I’m gonna snap!”
    8. The Eye of Argon* December 21, 2022 at 9:49 am

       I share the mass disappointment that this letter did not involve a cheerful puppy in a pink polo shirt with a popped collar… a peppy preppy puppy, as it were. :(
       1. Pam Adams* December 21, 2022 at 1:08 pm

          Don’t forget the alligators on the shirt!

          (goes off to reread The Preppy Handbook)
11. Keymaster of Gozer* December 21, 2022 at 2:20 am

    5. Don’t know about US law but someone asking staff to write character witness statements for coworkers is dodgy as all heck. It literally doesn’t matter about them – this person assaulted two people and they’ve got enough evidence for jail time. No judge is going to pay any attention to a note from a coworker that says ‘but she’s really nice and has a kid and was stressed’

    The legal people already know her excuse.
    1. Daisy* December 21, 2022 at 7:08 am

       Yeah, they in all likelihood have security tapes showing the assault, witnesses from other folks in the store, in addition to the person’s confession.
       Personally, I am so tired of folks acting badly towards others and excusing the behavior “because they are stressed.” They are not a toddler that needs to be put down for a nap, adults control their behaviors. If you can’t control your behavior you should not be allowed out without supervision.
    2. Slow Gin Lizz* December 21, 2022 at 10:01 am

       Yeah, I agree. It doesn’t matter if you’re the sweetest person 99.9% of the time, if you assault someone, you’ve assaulted someone and should deal with the consequences.
       1. marvin* December 21, 2022 at 1:31 pm

          I have no positive side to take in this story. I obviously don’t believe in assaulting people, and I don’t believe in pressuring employees to write probably insincere letters of support. But I also don’t believe in imprisoning people and don’t think the coworker should get a long jail sentence.
          1. the personality of a beige wall* December 21, 2022 at 6:37 pm

             They apparently assaulted people enough to require hospitalization. That is not someone I want walking around in society anytime soon and putting them on house arrest or whatever is still putting their other family members (including the special needs child) and neighbors at risk.
             Prison reform can still be a conversation to be had but when it comes to violent crimes, no, I do not want murderers, rapists, people who commit assault, etc out and about in society with me. Actions have consequences.
12. Phryne* December 21, 2022 at 4:09 am

    #3 I wonder if there is not a bit more to this story. I’m not victim blaming the OP, this is a wildly inappropriate message to get in any circumstance and that boss was way out of line.
    But it is so far out there that I do wonder if there is not at least a massive misunderstanding between OP and former boss about something. Something OP genuinely thought was no big deal which was in fact a huge deal for the boss for some reason.
    1. Bagpuss* December 21, 2022 at 5:36 am

       I suspect it was tht she hadn’t worked there for long and he was angry that they’d done allthe onboarding, maybe added to by not being able to contact her via normal channels.

       I tend to the view that she probably dodged a really terrible boss/ buisness becaue it’s such an excessively inappropriate reaction, even if there was something that was a bigger issue than OP realised, that I think the more that was going on was about how weird and inappropraite the boss was, more than anything else.

       Either way, as you say it’s massively inappropriate!
    2. Llama Llama* December 21, 2022 at 7:00 am

       Honestly, let’s assume she was a terrible employee and really slacked about giving a t-shirt back. Still sounds like the owner was over the top.
    3. PhoneQuestion* December 21, 2022 at 7:44 am

       Am I the only one who thought it odd that their phone was shut off and they couldn’t call, yet they could text?
       1. JelloStapler* December 21, 2022 at 7:56 am

          No this confused me too. Unless they could still use a wifi signal, so couldn’t call but could use some sort of messenger app?
          1. I need a new name...* December 21, 2022 at 8:57 am

             WhatsApp has a browser app
             1. KH* December 22, 2022 at 1:28 pm

                So does Google Messages.
       2. Emmy Noether* December 21, 2022 at 7:59 am

          I’m assuming they had some kind of internet service at home and texted over that (hence “when I got home”). Calling via internet wasn’t as common some years ago, and requires more bandwidth.
    4. Emmy Noether* December 21, 2022 at 7:51 am

       I was wondering the same. I’m reading into the letter that OP quit with no notice, by email or text presumably, hence the need to arrange a way to drop of the stuff via email tag. Maybe the owner was reacting to that? Maybe OP left them scrambling last minute to cover parties he was supposed to do? Still massively inappropriate reaction, obviously.

       Also, my risk-averse mind is kind of boggling at the sequence of events. He only applied for jobs once his phone was already cut off? What? Did OP at least line up another job before quitting?
       1. Phryne* December 21, 2022 at 8:14 am

          I sort of got the impression the OP is young and this is a side job next to school, possibly still living with parents. Could be completely wrong, but might explain why OP sees this job as far less serious as the owner trying to run a business.
          If OP is still a kid, that reaction is even more of a red flag though. Threatening a kid with ‘you’ll never work anywhere around here again’ for being a bit flaky over a part time job.
       2. Hlao-roo* December 21, 2022 at 8:35 am

          I took the “coward” bit to mean that the boss thought it was cowardly the OP handled their resignation through email, instead of face-to-face (or even over the phone) like a “respectable person” (in the boss’s view).
    5. Just Your Everyday Crone* December 21, 2022 at 9:51 am

       Well, we see bosses here all the time who have weird ideas about quitting and “loyalty,” so I don’t find it too difficult to believe that the guy is just another entitled business owner.
    6. PsychNurse* December 21, 2022 at 9:58 am

       I read it and immediately thought, “A heck of a lot of stuff went down that this letter writer is omitting.” Sounds like a very young, immature employee who did irresponsible stuff. But I do agree with Alison’s answer that it doesn’t matter– there’s no excuse for the boss sending a text with that wording. A reasonable boss would have sent a curt “Thank you” and then been done with it.
       1. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 1:21 pm

          Yes, that’s the thing. It could be that the OP was not handling things well. But the Boss was CERTAINLY not handling things well!
    7. Kelly L.* December 21, 2022 at 11:35 am

       At a lot of “shit jobs” like that, the boss is just bonkers and on a power trip for no reason. I ran into that a *lot* more as a teenager than I did in the jobs I’ve had as an adult. Like managers having regular screaming fits kind of bonkers. I think either the small amount of power goes to some folks’ heads or they hate teenagers, or both.
    8. Curmudgeon in California* December 21, 2022 at 12:04 pm

       If you are young and don’t have a car, it’s really easy to end up late and have trouble meeting a schedule on transit in most areas. (BTDT) I had several jobs where my car was DOA and I spent hours on transit to get to and from work. Plus, this was before cell phones existed. I was lucky to afford a landline. These days even if your cell service is cut off you can text via wifi at the library.

       It’s part of why I now roll my eyes at people trying to get me “out of my car and on transit!!1!!” For one, what used to take a half hour to get to will now take two or more hours, and you will still have a lot of walking at both ends. For disabled me that is agony, and not workable. “Walkable, bikeable” cities do a really horrible job of accommodating the mobility impaired without insisting that it’s “fine” if the trip takes four times as long, because they assume that the disabled don’t “really work” so their time is not worth much and is okay to waste.

       The owner’s reaction was way, way out of line. I would have been happy that the now ex employee was trying to return company property after the job didn’t work out.
       1. Emmy Noether* December 21, 2022 at 2:47 pm

          I’m one of those people who can be a bit pushy about transit/biking (I don’t own a car on principle), and I still think that very different rules apply to mobility impaired people.

          Even a city that has extremely well developed transit – say, Paris, where transit is generally faster than driving, and one is never more than 400m from the nearest Metro – it’s often not very accessible. I tried imagining Paris in a wheelchair or even just with difficulty walking stairs and it looks like a forking nightmare – most of those Metro entrances are not accessible at all.

          I say, those that can should bike or take transit, and those who for whatever reason cannot will have less congested roads to drive on while we, as a society, work on accessibility and a better net of stations. Win-win-win.
13. bamcheeks* December 21, 2022 at 4:18 am

    LW1, as long as nobody has confronted you by WEDNESDAY OF THIS WEEK, you’re probably fine.
    1. Bébé chat* December 21, 2022 at 5:12 am

       I was thinking about the same thing XD You are fine LW don’t worry
    2. ferrina* December 21, 2022 at 9:19 am

       lol! But also true. If everyone is treating you as normal, then you should let it pass. Other people think about us a lot less than we think they do.
       If there’s a bit of iciness, that might be worth gently probing in to (but also realize that the iciness may be unrelated to you- maybe their holiday bonus wasn’t what they wanted, etc).
       1. Phryne* December 21, 2022 at 9:35 am

          OP says there was a lot of drinking and dancing going on. I bet quite a few of the other people there were a bit tipsy and did not notice anything. And the ones that don’t drink had quite a few people around them being a bit more loose than usual. Unless one did something very loud or very public, no-one will have any further thoughts on that beyond it being a boozy and loud party.
          (and even if someone stood out just for being loud, that still does not mean most people will not consider that water under the bridge the next day.)
          1. AthenaC* December 21, 2022 at 10:49 am

             Agreed – having just come from a work conference where there was lots of booze among normally uptight people … many people just get unusually affectionate and loud while tipsy in a way that would be inappropriate in the office.

             What OP describes is nowhere close to anything that would land on anyone’s radar.
    3. The Eye of Argon* December 21, 2022 at 9:31 am

       Yes, as long as you don’t end up on the AAM list of holiday legends , you’re fine. You got a little more animated and talkative while tipsy. That happens to a lot of people and it’s so common I’d bet no one even noticed.
    4. Don't drink that* December 21, 2022 at 11:05 am

       It’s Christmastime and I’m in trouble
       Got too drunk at the company affair
       Sat on the copier, wore no apparel
       Did it on a dare

       As long as #1 didn’t act like the first verse of Bob Rivers’ “Christmas Party Song,” I think they were okay. :)

       I don’t drink at all (hate the taste), so I’ve never understood why anyone would want to be impaired in social settings, much less a work-related setting where you could risk your professional reputation and career. But even I know that if you’re just a bit excited and not violent or falling-down, lose-your-clothes drunk, your reputation is probably fine!
14. spruce* December 21, 2022 at 5:51 am

    My sympathy for workaholics decreases every year that I’m alive. The idea that someone truly can’t conceive 2 weeks at home without being bored… I used to try to understand someone like that, because it may be a sign of overworking so much you may get tunnel vision. But honestly, at this point, the only people I have ever met, or heard about, with this problem, are those who disdain people for taking holidays themselves.

    Get a hobby! Read a book, binge a TV series, go rescue puppies, start a model train room, volunteer in a soup kitchen, tutor a child in need, learn to bake 5 new dishes, plant a garden, visit a museum, walk in your city, teach yourself to play to ukulele, sleep 12 hours a day, deep clean your apartment, hike in the woods, repaint the walls of your bedroom, call your parents twice a day, learn to whistle your favourite song, start a journal, build a snowman, build a sand castle… should I continue?

    Unless they are the world’s least imaginative person, they will not sit at home bored for 2 weeks.
    1. Cat Tree* December 21, 2022 at 6:53 am

       This is an older letter and it seems almost quaint after the quarantine of 2020 through 2022. LW could leave the house and everything was open. Many of us went a little stir crazy in March 2020 but then we all became amateur bakers and knitters. I even took a long vacation for most of December 2020 because I have a “use it or lose it” policy and I sure heck wasn’t going to lose it. I couldn’t even visit family over Christmas that year. And yet I still filled the time. Turns out that watching the LOTR extended editions can turn into a 3 day event.
       1. WellRed* December 21, 2022 at 7:40 am

          My workload stayed the same in Covid and we all went wfh but in addition to a few weeks of furlough, I also took my vacation time. Lock down or not, it’s mine and I’ll find something to do.
       2. ferrina* December 21, 2022 at 9:22 am

          The LOTR marathon is a true endurance test. A group of friends and I tried this in high school, and we made it 5 minutes into the third one, then called it off and took a walk (we also tried it back-to-back; if we’d done one per day, we might have made it).
       3. Curmudgeon in California* December 21, 2022 at 12:07 pm

          Oooooh, that sounds like an awesome staycation! I’m never organized enough for that.
    2. Ashley* December 21, 2022 at 7:32 am

       What I wouldn’t give to have 2 paid weeks off in a row that isn’t included in my PTO! I am NEVER bored, as long as I’m not working. I enjoy my job fine, but I could be sitting on the couch doing nothing and be perfectly happy. My mom often gets bored when she’s not working and I just don’t understand it!
       1. SarahKay* December 21, 2022 at 8:51 am

          I’m lucky enough to be in the UK so have 5 weeks’ vacation, and can very happily use every minute, even if I don’t have any trips planned.
          Frankly there are way more books in my life (and local library) than I am likely to be able to read in the next 20-40 years, and that’s just books; don’t even look at the pile of DVDs or the dress-making fabric stash.
       2. Clisby* December 21, 2022 at 10:07 am

          This is what boggles my mind, and I actually worked for most of my life at a US nonprofit with decent PTO (you could work your way up to 6 weeks of vacation; sick leave was accrued at 1.5 days/month; some amount of both could be carried over.) I would still have loved 2 more weeks off.
    3. Ah Yes* December 21, 2022 at 11:09 am

       Yes – totally agree with this sentiment. I realize that some people will say that other people’s workaholic natures are no one else’s business and to just let them be, EXCEPT that workaholics often project their own neurosis about work onto the people around them. They’re the boss who scorns people for taking time off, parents who instill in their kids that same anxiety over not being productive, or people who make derisive comments about “no one wants to work anymore” when people put limits on how much they’re going to work. It creates a culture of overwork and exploitation – not necessarily intentionally, but it still happens because one person is a workaholic. When a coworker overworking (especially when they’re in a position of authority) they can put that pressure on others EVEN when they’re not explicitly asking others to work the same kinds of hours. It’s toxic and should be called-out at every opportunity.
    4. Somehow_I_Manage* December 21, 2022 at 11:59 am

       It’s not limited workaholics. Some folks put PTO on a pedestal. If they’re not climbing Kilimanjaro, or on a beach in the Caribbean it’s “wasted” time. That can be a big mental obstacle.

       There’s also an element of anxiety and depression to it for some people. Some are not comfortable being alone with unstructured time- especially being forced to take it without a plan. Remember, for a lot of people, particularly young, single, people- the workplace may be their social center.

       And then, yes, there are some who need this kind of policy to save them from their own misplaced sense of duty and responsibility at work.

       None of these are “good.” But they are understandable.
       1. Flowers* December 21, 2022 at 2:15 pm

          Remember, for a lot of people, particularly young, single, people- the workplace may be their social center.

          Careful….this site skews very much towards people who do NOT want to view work/coworkers as a social center…

          There are times work has been my safe space when things were stressful at home. The act and routine of getting out of the house and interacting with other reasonably pleasant humans that I don’t have a complicated history with and do work that makes me feel better about only benefits my mental health; it’s reason #93492734 that I hated lockdown/working remotely.

          Also I’m sure there’s a reason that as an adult, I’ve rarely ever gotten the Sunday scaries/Monday blues, and that Fridays/June always left me feeling some kind of way as a kid.
    5. Flowers* December 21, 2022 at 2:06 pm

       I personally would dislike being told to take 2 weeks without sufficient notice. The 2 weeks would be amazing BUT my husband and I are planners and our toddler has therapy 3x a week, so sudden, random trips are not a part of my lifestyle. If I have that much time off, I want to travel and make plans, even if those plans include “rest days” to just be a loaf around the house.

       Otherwise, I can imagine a million things I could do with 2 weeks off but in all likelihood nothing would get done. It reminds me of that meme that more or less says “2019 me thought I just needed a few weeks with nothing to do to get my house/myself in order and 2020 proved me wrong.”
       1. UKDancer* December 21, 2022 at 2:37 pm

          It doesn’t sound like it’s something that’s thrown on people with no notice. The OP was offered a different slot if she wanted so it wasn’t unexpected. So I would imagine people get some notice. My friend who is in banking does which allows for travel plans.

          Also I think if you work in one of the industries that requires this, you know it’s coming so you can probably make sure it comes at a time that is more convenient rather than less convenient. Taking 2 weeks is non-optional but I don’t think the timing is completely inflexible (at least not if the people I know in this position are anything to go by).
15. Spicy Tuna* December 21, 2022 at 6:32 am

    The mandatory time off thing would drive me nuts!! It’s not boredom, it’s a lack of productivity! And yes, I get that one can be productive by tackling a home project but that seems somewhat … IDK, indulgent? Selfish?

    When I was in Corporate America, I never took more than a day or two off in a row and that was mostly to work on my side hustle. I worked on my side hustle nights and weekends also to avoid downtime. Now that I am self employed, I work 7 days a week.

    When I was a kid, I had a not very irrational fear of being homeless that I have not been able to shake as an adult. Constantly working lets me believe I won’t be a homeless elderly person
    1. FashionablyEvil* December 21, 2022 at 7:09 am

       I hope you can read your comment and a) know that this is not healthy behavior and b) maybe something you should talk to someone about? That’s a lot of fear driving your life at the expense of living it.
    2. Susan Calvin* December 21, 2022 at 7:12 am

       That sound both imminently understandable, and pretty maladaptive – I hope you still find ways to take care and be kind to yourself, Spicy Tuna.
       1. ferrina* December 21, 2022 at 9:24 am

          Agree, and with love to you, Spicy Tuna. It’s amazing how the very real threats of childhood follow us. I hope you’re able to find comfort and healing! (I mean, you sound extremely functional, but fun is essential too)
       2. Season of Joy (TM)* December 21, 2022 at 10:17 am

          I once felt this way as well, not from a place of self-preservation but from a childhood that says “you aren’t worthy of love if you aren’t producing something excellent.” Different root, same result. Agree with others that taking time to rest is not lazy or indulgent, it is something your body needs. I empathize and hope you can find ways to incorporate real rest. <3
    3. Daisy* December 21, 2022 at 7:19 am

       You openly acknowledged your fear and you controlled it by having a side hustle. You then graduated to business owner, which pretty much sucks up all the time. I think you have appropriately dealt with your anxieties surrounding work/productivity.
       It is the folks who use the “I’m a better person because I never take a vacation” line who drive all the others bonkers. For decades there was a “butts in seats” mentality (and still is in many places) that is primarily performative and makes life easier for management scheduling coverage-based jobs but is not actually physically nor mentally healthy for the huge majority of people.
    4. Emmy Noether* December 21, 2022 at 7:28 am

       You do know that that’s not exactly normal or even particularly healthy, right? It’s not indulgent or selfish to do something for oneself! We don’t owe our lives or our time to the economy. Idle hands are not the devil’s playthings.

       It’s perfectly healthy to do things just for oneself, be it home improvement, hobbies, or even vegging out on the couch. I hope you don’t judge others as harshly as yourself. Also, there is very little real correlation between amount of time in life spent working and prevention of being destitute in old age. Plenty of people bust their butts and have nothing, and plenty of people are rich through no effort of their own, with every permutation in between.
       1. Spicy Tuna* December 21, 2022 at 9:13 am

          My business is property management. I just got a property back and have been prepping it for re-rental so I’ve been over there a lot. A neighbor said to me, “Wow, you just never stop working, do you?” and I literally replied, “Idle hands are the devil’s playground”…. LOL!
    5. WellRed* December 21, 2022 at 7:42 am

       What is life if not to indulge it a bit? Use some of that money to get a handle on your understandable fear.
    6. Madame Arcati* December 21, 2022 at 8:34 am

       This is a pretty worrying read tbh. First of all why must you be productive 100% of the time? Why can’t you relax and enjoy…anything?
       Secondly – a productive home project is selfish/indulgent? Why should that be so? Don’t you deserve tidy cupboards or a freshly painted lounge or a cute cardigan you knitted or the fun of a kickabout with the kids from over the road?
       I know I’m just a random imaginary internet person and you don’t have to listen to me, but please slacken off a bit; you’ll ruin your physical and mental health. And potentially, badly enough to render yourself incapable of work and that would put you in a much more precarious financial situation.
       You should not need to work seven days a week to avoid being homeless in old age. I know some jobs are very badly paid but that doesn’t sound like the situation for you.
       1. Neurospice* December 21, 2022 at 9:38 am

          Yes this letter cries out for therapy. I had a similar attitude because I couldn’t stand spending time with myself. It can be changed and your life will be much richer for it.
       2. UKDancer* December 21, 2022 at 9:47 am

          I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being self indulgent sometimes and it doesn’t have to cost a lot. I took a day off in early December for some self care. I did some tidying up, sorted my linen cupboard and did a zoom ballet class. Then I tried a new face product, took a very leisurely bath and curled up with a good library book and a mug of hot chocolate. Sometimes it’s nice spending time on yourself and just doing easy things that are pleasant. I felt a lot better and re-energised for the rest of the week ahead.
    7. EPLawyer* December 21, 2022 at 9:55 am

       We are ALLOWED to be self-indulgent and selfish.

       Working for yourself is a 24/7 thing. But you HAVE to take time off, even if it is to deep clean the cabinets. Because if you don’t take time off, your body will do it for you. Usually at a really inconvenient time.
    8. the personality of a beige wall* December 21, 2022 at 11:04 am

       “When I was a kid, I had a not very irrational fear of being homeless that I have not been able to shake as an adult. Constantly working lets me believe I won’t be a homeless elderly person”

       Anxiety sucks and economic insecurity sucks but yeah, you need to talk to someone about that, hon. None of that is normal or healthy. And if you were in a job where mandatory PTO exists, to catch fraud, this type of attitude would absolutely make an auditor think “hmmmmm.”
       Please get some help because, daaaaamn.
    9. Curmudgeon in California* December 21, 2022 at 12:22 pm

       I get the fear of being homeless. I came within a few days of that, while slowly starving, too. Unemployment in my areas is just nasty.

       Yeah, I have a side hustle too, but I also really, really value PAID time off. Being paid to sleep all day, or read a trilogy that has been waiting on my stack? Sign me up!

       When Covid hit I ended up WFH and couldn’t “go out”. So I made masks and stayed home. I have roommates, and one who feels compelled to “go out” shopping every day was frequently complaining. I still don’t relate to that. I shop two to three times a month, and hate it. Different strokes for different folks.
    10. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 1:24 pm

        And yes, I get that one can be productive by tackling a home project but that seems somewhat … IDK, indulgent? Selfish?

        You do realize that this is an extraordinarily unhealthy and judgemental attitude.

        I was getting annoyed at all the people bashing the OP. But if they have experienced your attitude, I can understand is a bit better.
16. Irish Teacher* December 21, 2022 at 7:13 am

    It seems like LW2 is seeing time off as something you take when “needed” rather than just a regular part of your year like weekends. You don’t need to be “at risk of burning out” or in need of time off for a trip to take your regular time off.

    I get that it could be boring if you have nothing planned, but boring isn’t a big deal and…it’s only two weeks. I think it might have been worth agreeing to push it out a little by which time it is more likely you would have stuff to do like chores or getting in touch with people or making dental appointments or whatever.

    I do think pushing back against time off could make a person look difficult. At worst, it’s two slightly boring weeks, which strikes me as a fairly minor issue for a new employee to be making an issue of. If I were a manager, I would wonder if this person is arguing about getting reasonable time off because they have nothing planned, how are they going to react when there is a work decision they disagree with? Of course, this might be the only thing they would push back on, but I would wonder are they somebody who is going to have a lot of objections.
17. Snow Globe* December 21, 2022 at 7:19 am

    I can surmise that if this is a younger, low level employee, their home living situation may not make a staycation very fun. They may live in a tiny apartment with roommates, or live at home with parents, and may not have money to go out and go to the movies or whatever. Still, volunteering is a good suggestion, as is just going to the library or to the park, etc.
    1. Madame Arcati* December 21, 2022 at 8:43 am

       Time off work doesn’t have to be validated by holidays abroad, travel, or anything that costs money. Not having to go to work = rest.
       1. Flowers* December 21, 2022 at 2:18 pm

          and what if their home life is not particularly restful? What if they live alone and get lonely? or if they live with parents/family members who are abusive? Not everyone has a loving and wonderful life to go home to.
    2. Ravcs* December 21, 2022 at 9:09 am

       Another option – all the public libraries in my area have free museum passes. For someone who has two weeks and no vacation plans / little money this can be a nice option.
       1. Cthulhu's Librarian* December 21, 2022 at 10:15 am

          Yup! It’s a great way to use resources that are available to you. And even outside of the library’s passes, a lot of museums have specific days of the week/month with reduced or free admissions in general.
18. Essentially Cheesy* December 21, 2022 at 7:47 am

    Today I’m starting about two weeks vacation and it’s great! I’m going to do mundane things line clean carpet and go through my closets, besides celebrating the holidays. It’s going yo be great!

    Being in your 40s is so much different than being in your 20s, lol.
    1. Season of Joy (TM)* December 21, 2022 at 10:13 am

       I have a glorious list of drawers, cupboards, and closets I’m going to clean out and rearrange. I am SO EXCITED.
19. JelloStapler* December 21, 2022 at 7:47 am

    LW4- Perhaps they could use this as an opportunity to learn to develop a life outside work as a new professional. I know this was 6 years ago so hopefully they figured it out.

    But geesh- what an amazing policy.
    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd* December 21, 2022 at 8:26 am

       > what an amazing policy

       The way I’d look at it though is they give 4 weeks of PTO per year, of which 2 weeks have to be taken in a block at a time chosen by the company. 4 weeks of PTO is generous (in the states as I understand it) though… perhaps she spent the time applying for other jobs that don’t have this “problem”!
       1. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 1:29 pm

          If they want to stay in that industry, it’s going to be a problem wherever they go.
20. ecnaseener* December 21, 2022 at 8:15 am

    #4 is a nice illustration of that letter from the other day about “I don’t understand why we have to do X” being code for “I just don’t want to do X.”
    “I don’t know why I have to take two weeks off for no reason” — yes you do? you told us the reasons were to prevent fraud and burnout and you told us this was mandatory in your industry. (And if you look at the original comments, the LW got VERY salty about any suggestions that it might not be completely mandatory, despite the entire question being about whether they could get out of it.)
    1. Falling Diphthong* December 21, 2022 at 10:09 am

       That was genuinely perplexing. Both in the letter and in the comments she says that it is mandatory and knows why, but somehow the company should still put themselves afoul of the SEC as a special exception for a relatively new and lower level employee?
    2. excel jockey* December 21, 2022 at 11:33 am

       Yeah, that was really something. I wonder what the real point of her question was.
       1. Pam Adams* December 21, 2022 at 1:11 pm

          a chance to complain.
21. Lilo* December 21, 2022 at 8:26 am

    An important note re: #1. If you aren’t paid within a certain period of time you usually can file a complaint with your state’s Department of Labor. Look up your individual state.
22. Hiring Mgr* December 21, 2022 at 8:38 am

    I wouldn’t write a letter but it also seems we don’t know all the facts about the situation. Pleading guilty may have been the best option if the coworker was poor, POC, knowing how the system often works.
    1. Janny* December 21, 2022 at 8:51 am

       If the original comments mentioned that the victim(s) were hospitalized as was mentioned above, this seems like pretty clear cut unacceptable violence. I don’t think it’s always helpful to make excuses for clearly bad behaviour.
    2. I should really pick a name* December 21, 2022 at 9:04 am

       I can’t think of anything that would change the fact that a letter from a coworker who barely knew them isn’t of any value.
    3. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 1:36 pm

       We actually do know a fair amount, since the OP expanded in the comments.

       So, the whole thing was caught on tape, so there is very little room for speculation as to WHAT happened. In addition, the OP said that both victims wound up in the hospital – the office was released the same day but had to take off, and the clerk needed to stay overnight and miss weeks of work.
23. Sharks Are Cool* December 21, 2022 at 8:41 am

    #2 Is there any chance this person is being sarcastic? I know I often sound peppy as a joke or way of acknowledging an un-fun task: “Is everyone SUPER EXCITED to do this incredible boring thing that no one in their right mind would be excited about?”
    1. ferrina* December 21, 2022 at 9:27 am

       This triggered a memory of a cheerleader I used to know. Instead of getting grumpy, she would get peppy. So if she was super peppy, is meant that she was having a terrible day. She secretly had a very quirky sense of humor, and I found it hilarious.
    2. Season of Joy (TM)* December 21, 2022 at 10:11 am

       Yeah, same. I’m also the kind of person who answers “how are you?” with an upbeat “spectacular!” And apparently I’m very believable because it confuses people sometime.

       I do feel somewhat bad when people are confused, but at the same time, the only risk there is that they think I’m an optimist. Sometimes it sets a good tone for whatever lies ahead and makes it not so dull/awful.
    3. Somehow_I_Manage* December 21, 2022 at 12:04 pm

       This was my reaction too. If your boss asks you “Yo- Tobias, how pumped are you to nail this accounting spreadsheet later?!” you’ve just got to see the humor in it. Or at a minimum, see the opportunity to respond in kind and flip the joke on them! Seems like a missed opportunity for some fun, rather than an opportunity for conflict.

       But sometimes, teammates can’t get on the same page. I know we all live on earth, but sometimes different people operate on different planets.

       /But in the spirit of Ask A Manager, we’ll take OP at their word. It certainly would be odd if someone drew such energy from the mundane.
24. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est* December 21, 2022 at 9:05 am

    My boss offered to change it to a few months where there is an opening in the two week schedule

    LW #4, there’s your solution. Take your boss up on the offer–you may well be ready for a two week break in a few months, you have a few months to plan for that two week break to make the best of it, and your boss is already offering work with you. Don’t make yourself memorable in negative ways.
25. star* December 21, 2022 at 9:20 am

    I’d love to see an update from LW#4… How have their two week holidays gone?
    1. EPLawyer* December 21, 2022 at 9:57 am

       I would too. See how they have adapted. Or if they found this just wasn’t the industry for them.
26. Ginger* December 21, 2022 at 9:28 am

    Although I understand the emotion behind the reactions to #4, especially in light of the last few years, there are some people who really thrive on routine and having 2 weeks of can be more of a “problem” than others realize. This is honestly probably more common than you realize.
    1. Just Your Everyday Crone* December 21, 2022 at 9:56 am

       Thank you. I know it would drive my son up a tree, and it’s not because he has bought into capitalist productivity culture, it’s because he likes having structure and stuff to do. ND people often have trouble with wide open unstructured time.
       1. KatEnigma* December 21, 2022 at 10:57 am

          Instead of trying to get the SEC to allow her an exception, if that was the case, the solution is to schedule the time so LW could have her structure.
27. Essess* December 21, 2022 at 9:33 am

    OP#5 – If I was *ordered* to write a letter of support for the courts, I would be contacting the court and/or lawyers to let them know that there was coercion being used to solicit the letters. The court wouldn’t look favorably on this.
    1. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 1:37 pm

       The court wouldn’t care. The coercion is legal and it’s not going to make a difference anyway.
28. The Eye of Argon* December 21, 2022 at 9:45 am

    May all the gods of grumpiness protect us from peppy people. I used to work across the hall from a woman who was the paragon of peppy. She had the loudest, most grating laugh ever, and everything was funny to her. Every problem was an opportunity and you just needed that get up and go spirit. Why worry about tomorrow when you can celebrate today? All the while, she was ignoring her work and kissing up to our male coworkers so they’d carry the day for her. Man, I was glad when she retired.

    Her replacement was a no-nonsense, cynical, snarky, dour middle-aged woman. We got along great :D
    1. Grey Panther* December 21, 2022 at 11:40 am

       Re your first sentence: I’m with you, Eye of Argon. Curmudgeons unite!

       After all, surly to bed, surly to rise. (line stolen from Stan Freburg, but it still makes me laugh.)
       1. Grey Panther* December 21, 2022 at 2:03 pm

          It’s Stan Freberg. My apologies to the late Mr. Freberg.
29. Reality.Bites* December 21, 2022 at 9:45 am

    It seems to me that writing a letter of support for someone you basically don’t know would be perjury or whatever the term would be.
    1. EPLawyer* December 21, 2022 at 9:59 am

       Nah. Perjury is for misrepresenting a material fact to the matter at hand WHILE UNDER OATH. Since she already pled guilty, these are just more in the way of character letters for affect sentencing. as long as you don’t LIE, there’s not problem. They are also not under oath.
    2. Bilateralrope* December 21, 2022 at 10:47 am

       Only if the letter writer lies.

       Stick to the truth in this situation and the worst that might happen is the court asking “why did you write this letter ?”
    3. Clisby* December 21, 2022 at 12:44 pm

       No. This is not what perjury is.
30. el l* December 21, 2022 at 10:35 am

    OP4:
    There is always a reason not to take time off. That rationale will always exist. Have to learn to ignore that thinking sometimes.

    Especially as you get deeper into your career, you realize that the most precious gift is time. Use it here.
31. Rob aka Mediancat* December 21, 2022 at 11:08 am

    I was going to say, who’s going to complain about their boss being SUPER PUPPY?

    Then I read it again. Not nearly as much fun.
32. GreyjoyGardens* December 21, 2022 at 12:09 pm

    Re LW #5 of the voluntold vouching for: it seems like none of your coworkers want to write letters for this woman either, which says something. If your boss puts their foot down hard and you can’t refuse, you can just stick to the plain and brief truth: “I worked with Alicent Hightower at the Dragon Claw Clipping Company for X years. I never had any problems with her. Sincerely, Jace Velaryon.” I doubt your boss is going to proofread every single letter.

    And those who are saying that a judge is not going to put much weight on letters from coworkers are right. Letters from people who know the defendant very well for many years, yes, in *some* cases. Which might not be in this case because there will be evidence that the woman injured a grocery store worker badly enough to send them to the ER (as I recall), and also assaulted a police officer. Your letter and those of your coworkers won’t make a whit of difference.

    It doesn’t really matter *why* your coworker beat up a grocery clerk; it only matters *that* letters from coworkers are going to be as useful as a paper umbrella in a rainstorm. I’d love to see the update, if any.
    1. Observer* December 21, 2022 at 1:39 pm

       it only matters *that* letters from coworkers are going to be as useful as a paper umbrella in a rainstorm

       That’s a GREAT line!
33. Here for the Insurance* December 21, 2022 at 2:10 pm

    #1 is a great example of the differences in people’s base level of “too far”. In my circles, you’d have to go way, way beyond this for anyone to notice. 3.5 glasses of wine, dancing, & grabbing someone’s hand wouldn’t be a blip on anyone’s radar.

    Plus, it’s been my experience that if you go too far, you’ll know it because EVERYONE will find a way to let you know. If no one has said anything or given you weird looks, you’re fine.
34. Kath* December 21, 2022 at 3:23 pm

    Regarding #1, I once asked myself the same question after an office Christmas party where I had a moderate amount to drink and then took part in a secret Santa exchange. My secret Santa got me a couple of used paperbacks about folk music, and I about lost my mind at what a perfect and wonderful gift it was and how he “knew me so well”, I was almost moved to tears…

    Yeah, some of us just get unbearably earnest and child-like, apparently. It was so embarrassing when I realized later what a huge overreaction I’d had to what was just, like, a standard present. But no one thought it was that weird. I guess you kind of expect the people you work with to become exaggerated versions of themselves, within reason, when drinking is involved.
35. Appletini* December 21, 2022 at 4:34 pm

    The discussion of #5 reminds me of an article I read once about a woman whose list of stress relieving techniques included yelling at grocery store workers. I wonder if some of the reason some posters think we’re not being sufficiently sympathetic to the coworker who assaulted the grocery store worker is that such workers are commonly considered to be “fair game” and are expected to absorb the anger of their “betters”?
    1. GreyjoyGardens* December 22, 2022 at 4:11 pm

       I think this is part of it. They are peons, who are there to be emotional punching bags when a customer has a bad day. Not, you know, people with feelings trying to earn a living.
36. EmmaPoet* December 22, 2022 at 8:03 pm

    I went back and read #5. Coworker’s children were present and witnessed their mother physically attack both the clerk and the police officer. OP also said that Coworker struck them with her hands, feet, and objects in her hands, leaving both with multiple injuries. Both victims went to the hospital, the clerk had to stay overnight. The officer missed a week of work due to their injuries, the clerk missed several weeks. The attack was caught on camera, and coworker took a plea rather than risk a jury trial with that as evidence.

    There’s no way I’d write a clemency letter for someone who did this. Whatever her stressors are, she seriously harmed two people.
    1. EmmaPoet* December 22, 2022 at 8:05 pm

       This is all from comments down in the post, not just the original letter.

Comments are closed.