update: my terrible yet charismatic former classmate is interested in my boss’s job

by Alison Green on December 27, 2022

It’s “where are you now?” month at Ask a Manager, and all December I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

Remember the letter-writer whose terrible yet charismatic former classmate was interested in her boss’s job (#5 at the link)? Here’s the update.

I realized something when you put out the call for updates that you answered one of my letters about five years ago, and the two letters have a connection point… So buckle up for a long update:

To begin, my most recent letter: I was able to avoid recommending my grad school classmate by stating that I was unfamiliar with her work relevant to my industry or the specifics of the role, so I wouldn’t feel comfortable referring her, effectively skirting the fact that she didn’t have any relevant experience and making it about my familiarity with her specific work. It was obvious to me, knowing the role she has been in since we graduated and knowing my industry that she isn’t qualified, but I didn’t have to bring it up.

Also, I’m about to say a lot of unflattering things about this classmate, so I will preface with this: having made the transition from academia to my industry, it took me a while, as I was applying for roles to feel out the level of experience wanted for the role that translated to my own experience. I knew that I was overqualified for entry level roles, but I didn’t know, for instance senior vs. lead vs. principal vs. director. I definitely applied to roles that, in hindsight, required more experience than I had. So I don’t necessarily think that her applying for a director level role was necessarily deliberately trying to get away with something or doing anything wrong. But I do think that once she realized she didn’t have the relevant experience, rather than admitting it, she would try to make up for what she lacked in charm, which seems to work well for her.

I didn’t mention it in the comments, but by the time your letter published, my old boss had left, thus I was not able to say anything to her about my former classmate’s interest in the role. By that point in time, they were interviewing candidates, and while I was not involved in the interview process, it became very clear that there were many people with a lot of highly relevant experience and industry connections, so I was slightly less worried about classmate getting invited to interview. In the end, I don’t know if she applied or not, but they hired someone with an extensive background in our field, who has been a delight to work with.

I did want to address something that came up quite a bit in the commentariat. There were some people who thought I was overreacting at the idea that my classmate would definitely get hired if she were interviewed. In hindsight, I probably was catastrophizing a little, getting the message from her definitely brought back memories of her charming her way into fellowships and research positions when we were in grad school when there were people who had more experience in the area in question and research experience that was a better fit. I never personally lost out to her on anything, but I had my own run-ins with her (more on that later!), and the idea of working for her was genuinely terrifying. Plus, having watched her behavior in grad school, the idea of her just kind of jumping into a position that I would likely need another decade of experience to be qualified for really brought all of that back up. So, I admit, I was probably overstating the likelihood of her getting the role in my panic about the thought of having to work for her.

That said, I do think that a full dismissal of the concern was also not appropriate—this is a person who is good at charming her way into getting what she wants, I’ve seen it happen multiple times and so I think the idea that it would never happen is also off base.

Overall, I do think your addressing it and some of the commenters support helped to assuage my nerves, even if it was a little too late to directly take your advice.

Now for the fun part: Five years ago, I also wrote you about a problem I was having with a grad school classmate and a freelance job that I had been offered over the summer (#3 at the link). You can probably guess who that classmate was… Honestly, it hadn’t crossed my mind when I wrote my more recent letter that I had written in about her in the past because I was so panicked by the contact, but after the letter ran, I remembered. Obviously, everything in my update to the second letter is kind of an update on this, regarding my relationship with that classmate. But specifically about this scenario, it just kind of fizzled. I did my freelance work over the summer, covered my expenses, and while I don’t think she fully got over it, I think she realized that she could only whine about it so much without people getting a bad impression of her. This was sort of the beginning of the end—before that point, I had considered her a friend, I even referred to her as such in my letter. After that point, I started to notice how literally everything she did was for her own gain. Obviously, in a PhD program, you have to work toward advancing yourself, but the way she went about it was not collegial, and so I spent the rest of my time in the program steering clear of her whenever possible.

Hopefully, the next time I encounter her, it doesn’t warrant a letter to AAM. I’m not trying to present this as a neat little karmic arc or anything, I don’t think my referral or lack thereof was what made the difference with this recent instance, but it amused me when I remembered I had written in about her before.

You may also like:
{ 49 comments }

{ 49 comments… read them below }

  1. Jenna Webster*

    I’m glad you wrote it – isn’t too often that anyone writes in twice about the same person, especially separated by that many years! I was glad for the update and glad it all turned out well. I can absolutely understand the panic that went along with this incident – sometimes things just feel like deja vu all over again!

    1. Cmdrshprd*

      That we know of anyways. If I were to write in about the same person I would purposely not mention prior letters/issues unless they were directly related to avoid the possibility of people realizing who they are about.

      The two letters individually not likely to be specific enough to be identifiable but putting them together might make it more likely the subject or others might realize who they are about.

    4. Old Woman in Purple*

      Two letters are referenced in this update: The first one (“interested in boss’s job”) is #5 in that link. The second one (“grad-school classmate & freelance job”) is #3 of THAT link.

  3. many bells down*

    I was married to a guy who could charm his way into things he was completely and totally unqualified for, so I absolutely believed that part. He was once hired as a karate instructor despite his *entire* experience being “owns a copy of Bruce Lee’s Jeet Kune Do.” I wish I were joking.

    2. Hills to Die on*

      I was married to someone like that too. Used some of his little tricks against him during the divorce process.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      Lots of people are very attached to the idea that people only get what they deserve, but there’s definitely a type of person who just have an unfair charm offensive. Partly it’s because they think they’re entitled to it (the first letter which tells us the charming colleague had to learn not to whine about their entitled expectations was not a surprise), partly it’s because they’re not going about things honestly, but mostly it’s just because they want something and they’ve found a way to get it.

      1. Sloanicota*

        This is true, but OP should keep in mind that, despite her concerns, nothing happened here. Whether they applied and were not selected, or didn’t apply, they didn’t somehow magically charm their way into the role. I always have to pause and take note of the things I spent time and energy worrying about that didn’t happen, because it’s easy to just mow over those things and onto the next worry if you’re not careful.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          I think this is true if you’re a worrier, and you have identified that you spend too much time on things that never come to pass. I have the opposite problem of being too laid back and unworried, so I pay super hard attention if my instincts feel there’s a problem brewing.

    4. Prefer my pets*

      My ex husband was the same way. I certainly fell for it! Some people just have a ridiculous amount of persuasive charisma when they choose to turn it on, even though objectively there is absolutely no reason why they should be that good at getting whatever they want.

      I hold out hope that there must not be a ton of them since so many people don’t seem to have encountered the type (or maybe they have, but were out of the sphere before they came to their senses).

      1. Sloanicota*

        I think a lot now about Gavin de Becker’s statement that charm is a verb. In general, people are choosing to charm you. It should give us a moment of pause when someone launches the charm offensive, rather than being positive. Still working on this.

        1. Hrodvitnir*

          That one is interesting. My partner and I both react fairly negatively to people who come on too strong – and are shocked at just how ingenuine people can be and be successful!

          Which is not to say I cannot either be charmed by someone, or recognise someone is charming but still like it.

          I tend to feel that the people are are charming without rubbing me up the wrong way have semi-passively leant into a talent they have: I can be quite electric to talk to when everything is going right, but I can’t put it on at will. The people who induce suspicious eyes are mostly those who have made a very deliberate choice to use their charm.

          1. PitofDespair*

            I have a parent who has gotten a lot of things through charm and I think as a result, I have a similar radar and negative response.

          2. allathian*

            Oh yes, I agree, especially with your last paragraph. Subtle charm works on me, but I react very negatively to people who come on too strong.

      2. Flying*

        I was in a relationship with a man like this. Absolutely awful human being, unfortunately, but very charming on the surface. Most people who knew him didn’t like him, but people he had only just met or that he specifically turned it on for (like me) thought he was great.

        You wanna know HOW seriously charming this guy was? I’m a lesbian.

        1. allathian*

          Reminds me of the time I was in college and went through what I call my butch phase. I had a buzz cut, wore lumberjack shirts, Levi’s jeans and Doc Marten boots, and no makeup. It took me a while to understand why I was getting more attention from women than men at parties. One of the women I ran into was so charming that she almost made me wish I scored higher on the Kinsey scale than I do. I’m probably about 1, in that I’m esthetically affected by some women, but I’m only interested in cis men as potential sexual and romantic partners.

    5. Meep*

      Ok this is comical. I want to know how that went.

      Our former VP of Business Dev was the same way. She had sales experience, but nothing about running a business. She only got away with it for so long due to her charm. Once gone did we realize how much business she had actually lost (minus all the clients complaining about her, there were a ton of potential ones she just ghosted). Of course, she has finally been fired five months ago. Like every other job she ever held…

    6. SQL Coder Cat*

      A friend’s husband is like this. He has applied for entry level jobs in multiple different ‘new to him’ fields- and gotten hired at a management level every time. He gets fired or quits before he gets fired in 4-6 months… but it just keeps happening.

  4. World Weary*

    I know a guy who’s been fired from every job he’s ever had since I first worked with him 20 years ago. He has consistently failed upwards and now he’s a CFO. I like this guy but it galls me to see him progress in his career while mine is stalled. He interviews great!

    1. soontoberetired*

      Haven’t we all worked with someone like that? Mine was with a very charming woman who, once the charm wore off, you would see she was incompetent and spent more time stabbing people in the back. I told a direct report of hers that her boss wouldn’t last, and she didn’t. She spends about 18 months at every place she’s ever worked, and has advanced up with the jobs. But at the 18 month part, people begin to notice there’s not much there.

  5. Ashley Armbruster*

    After working with several bosses and coworkers who move upwards due to charisma instead of skill, I don’t think your panic was overstated!

    1. Hills to Die on*

      I don’t think it was either! I have seen some fantastically incompetent people succeed VERY well just on charm and brass balls.

      1. bleh*

        Not at all overblown. I have met a few of these types – in the US anyway, confidence is much more salable than competence.

        1. Sloanicota*

          I mean, yes, but in this case the coworker apparently didn’t even get an interview, if they applied at all – so let’s keep it in perspective! Also, if they had applied, a quiet word from OP, a trusted insider, would have likely gone a looong way.

    2. Where’s the Orchestra?*

      I think the key here is balanced concern. We’ve all shared anecdotes about the charming creep that could seemingly sell ice to a penguin (even if only once) – but that then flounder when the charm offensive wears out and they have to stand on their own minimal skills.

      The trick is knowing when to really worry and when to allow yourself the moment of “OH Crud” but then realizing that the charm offensive isn’t going to have a chance to get on a roll. And that comes down to reading the culture you are in at your job.

  6. E*

    So happy this has a good resolution. Wow that person sounds like an entitled piece of work, hopefully you won’t have to have much to do with them moving forward

  8. RunShaker*

    I too know someone that has “charm.” He’s a great talker & people outside of my now former small department love him. But these people are outsiders in that they don’t see the day to day stuff. He’s able to spin stuff into more positive light to upper management. Everybody in my former department didn’t like him due to his actions which were opposite of his words & the butts in your seat mentality. His butts in your seat mentality was opposite of what the company as a whole was promoting for work life balance. The pandemic proved we were more productive working from home but he still pushed for us to return to office & pushed for max days which company leadership shot him down. I was surprised. I say former since my company decided to close down my former small department & I was eventually laid off. If for some reason he applies at my current company, I would be having a panic attack as well & would be contacting the hiring manager to give my feedback as to why he shouldn’t be hired.

  9. deesse877*

    As an academic… this is totally a thing. There’s a specific kind of kissing up that some people become adept at, involving not just their own sense of entitlement, but also the ability to give people in power the sense that they are benevolent, wise, and beloved to the precise extent that they protect and reward the ever-so-charming junior person.

    I can imagine it’s less effective in industry, where there’s less reason to coddle the tenured.

    1. Three Flowers*

      Yep, I came here to say this. It’s so common in academia. We had someone exactly like OP’s former colleague in my PhD program (well, maybe more paranoid), and there was another person who was going around telling people she wanted my boss to give her my summer assistantship (which I’d had year-round for several years) to her instead. I would *run*, not walk, to HR to dis-recommend either of those well-educated, outwardly-charming, manipulative PITAs.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        I’ve worked with that type both in and out academia.

        Makes me grind my teeth whenever I end up downstream of them, because they usually:
        A) don’t know shit about the job, and are actively counterproductive,
        B) kiss up to upper management so much that when the rank and file complain they get blown off and accused of “sour grapes” about this “great manager”, and
        C) kick down so that they end up with massive turnover that they then convince upper management is just “non-productive whiners”. (The only folks who stay are the ones that kiss up to them, regardless of their competence.)

        It takes anywhere from one year to never to figure out that they are ineffective and actually damaging, by which time they have gutted their department. They usually quit before they are fired and use that title as the stepping stone for the next one.

        They are a scourge in industry, and usually find siloed or dysfunctional companies to build their little fiefs in.

  10. Clefairy*

    I have a former coworker/friend/eventual boss who is amazingly charming and great at sweet talking herself into positions that she isn’t qualified for, one of which was being my boss, and it honestly destroyed our up-until-that-point fine relationship. It was a nightmare. So OP, while I’m SO GLAD that nothing came of it, I want to tell you that I understand why you were feeling the way that you did. I feel like if people don’t know someone with that quality, it’s really hard to believe it can happen…but happen it does. Most recently she charmed herself into a fairly high level HR role with a huge, well known company with zero HR experience, and huge issues with gossipping and bullying in former roles. I honestly pity the employees she services in her role.

  11. Not Charmed at all...*

    I’ll chime in and say, yeah, I’ve worked with a couple of these too. Neither were malicious – just used to overcoming difficulties and hiding their deficiencies by using their charm and good looks.

    Oddly, I was not charmed by either. The first one, I looked her up on LinkedIn on day and wow, she had climbed up the executive ladder and I still have no idea how she pulled that off.

    The other, I heard thru old coworkers that she had asked a different coworker for a reference that was overheard and boy, was it cringey – yeah, she was nice but not THAT special. It’s amazing how far a middle aged man will go just for a chance interaction with a charming younger woman.

    Neither of these two were very good at what they did. Oh, well.

    1. Old Woman in Purple*

      Two letters are referenced in this update: The first one (“interested in boss’s job”) is #5 in that link. The second one (“grad-school classmate & freelance job”) is #3 of THAT link.

  13. LB33*

    It sounds like this person has an outsized influence on you.. I hope this is the last you hear from her (i didn’t see any mention of whether she actually applied for the job?)

    1. MK*

      Eh, the OP was in the same program with her in 2017, but their friendship apparently fizzled out till this year when she contacted the OP again. Two instances in 6 years is hardly an obsession.

      2. Where’s the Orchestra?*

        Agreed – two times in six years in what sounds like a niche type job doesn’t sound like obsessively worried.

        But it does sound like this person has a history in skating on charm rather than skills, and having been around some of those people I really don’t blame OP for their moment of panic.

        1. kitryan*

          Yes, there are some people who you just want to be well away from. I had a friend in grade school/high school who is also superficially charming but ultimately pretty narcissistic and, most relevant to me, they bring out all of my worst tendencies. I have blocked them on social media and would definitely freak out a bit if I saw them apply to a position at my workplace- both because I’d be afraid they’d charm their way into a job and then I’d end up getting embroiled in some drama or tainted by association when they proved unqualified and ending with my own reputation damaged.

    2. Violetta*

      I agree – this is a lot of headspace to give to someone who you don’t care for. When this person’s sin is… asking for a referral for a job she may not have been qualified for (but by OP’s own admission, that wouldn’t have been super clear for someone outside the org)?

  14. immunorecovering*

    What a fascinating update! It’s very satisfying as a reader to read two posts – years apart – about the same person!

  15. Suddenly Susan*

    Sometimes I interview better than I ought to, and have discovered this a couple of times. I try harder to make sure I am really qualified now first.

Comments are closed.