update: new hire is monitoring our calendars

by Alison Green on December 20, 2022

It’s “where are you now?” month at Ask a Manager, and all December I’m running updates from people who had their letters here answered in the past.

There will be more posts than usual this week, so keep checking back throughout the day.

Remember the letter-writer whose new hire was monitoring the whole team’s calendars and commenting on them? Here’s the update.

Your advice to talk with my team member and ask what was behind her calendar-monitoring behavior was really helpful, but it was the commentariat’s insistence that I not let it go made me realize how much the behaviors could be impacting the rest of the team. Thanks to them, I read your advice over and over (and over again!), plucked up the courage, and called a meeting.

I followed the script you outlined, and was dismayed to hear her defend her behavior. Yep. She said, and I quote, “No one on this team is doing their job and as the most senior person in the department, I can’t just stand by and let that happen.” You can imagine how surprised I was to learn that I, the actual person in charge, was not only not the ‘senior person’ but also not doing my job! And, for the record, we are actually an extremely high functioning team both in our organization and in our industry!

I asked her how she defines “most senior person” and learned that her 35 years of experience makes her more senior to me (I only have 24–she counted them up–by looking me up on LinkedIn!) I can’t tell you how difficult it was to hold my tongue and not set her straight about years vs. performance and my personal performance!!!

Luckily, I had thought to print out our organizational chart that shows me just below the CEO and her on the same plane as the colleagues she feels “senior” to due to her years of experience. I pointed out her position on the chart, my position on the chart, and explained that, in this department, we don’t play the “senior” game. We don’t even play the “I’m the boss” game. We respect everyone for their unique skills, diverse perspectives, and their respective roles and responsibilities. But, just in case she needed it to be clear: I AM the boss. And, I cannot have her (or anyone else) policing and second guessing the professionals with whom we work about their priorities and duties. Those priorities are worked out between me and the staff person and no.one.else.

I also explained how her behaviors were making her colleagues feel–and doing that does not contribute to her previously stated goal of building stronger relationships with her teammates. I kid you not, she actually said that she hadn’t thought of that! I explicitly said that she was not to comment on anyone’s calendars again and she agreed to stop it at once.

So, the update is: she has not made another comment on the calendars. But, I can tell that she doesn’t accept that her perspective and behavior is flawed. Other issues have come up and I am taking the commentariat’s advice to heart: I MUST address these sorts of issues. I am documenting all of this to reflect it on her 1-year review (that will contain a Performance Improvement Plan) and I will be asking her if this is the right position for her. I would have more optimism that this would turn out well if she could accept that these behaviors are not okay. As it is, I don’t see her making it.

I do want to thank the commenters for holding me to account about not addressing this issue sooner. I was not living up to my responsibility as a leader and I am taking steps to rectify that. Turns out, this experience did make someone better at their job, but it was me rather than who I perceived as being the primary problem. Thanks, y’all!

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{ 188 comments }

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      1. Where’s the Orchrstra?*

        Well – it sounds like she is being managed, but she insists on learning only one lesson at a time and not extrapolating the lesson from one topic to the related topic. I’ve worked with lots of this sort of person, and they are genuinely exhausting.

          1. Slow Gin Lizz*

            I believe that’s what OP is working towards with the PIP. Probably the org has a procedure OP needs to follow before OP can fire her.

              3. Tio*

                If the game is “Don’t fire someone without giving them a chance to improve”, then I guess so? But most people consider this a normal management process.

              4. Low Sparrow*

                Putting someone on a PIP isn’t a “game.” In most organizations, firing someone out of the blue is reserved for truly egregious behavior, and for good reason.

                The snappy “you’re fired, pack up your things” might sound satisfying, but it is actually terrible for staff morale, especially when leadership hasn’t been seen making an effort to correct the issue. It makes even good employees worry about their job security, because they don’t know if they’ll be given a chance to correct mistakes or just get fired for them, or if they need to worry more about popularity than performance.

                1. ferrina*

                  Exactly. The PIP actually empowers the employee to make an informed decision- do they want to double down and try to catch up to where they need to be? Or are they going to save their energy for job searching (and at least know when they’ll be fired)?
                  As someone who has been on a PIP and been let go without warning, I’ll take the warning every time.

                2. Hamster Manager*

                  This is true, one time I’d just pulled off a really difficult project with a giant client (like Coca-Cola-level giant) basically solo, and the week after the project (successfully) wrapped, I was fired out of the blue, no reason given, with no PIP, no warning, nothing. I’d gotten great reviews for years.

                  I heard afterwards that there was a LOT of angst at the all-company meeting to announce it, like “if Hamster can be randomly fired, what about the rest of us?” Within a few years was almost total turnover; you can’t play with people’s sense of safety like that.

                3. inko*

                  Absolutely this! A warning and a chance to improve is not ‘game-playing’ or somehow less honest. Even if you’re almost certain the person won’t step up and make the necessary changes, it’s not wrong to take due care with that person’s livelihood and their colleagues’ sense of security.

              5. Czhorat*

                But .. it isn’t a game. The PIP is a genuine last chance to improve. It’s also a way to be fair and give the employee every chance and a CLEAR understanding that this is not only unacceptable, but that there is a path for fixing it.

            2. Where’s the Orchrstra?*

              All but one of the jobs I’ve held through 20 years in the “working world” have had a specific process to follow if you want to terminate an employee. I don’t consider following the documented process “playing a game.”

            1. Gresham*

              PIPs are about improving performance, and many people complete them successfully. If you use a PIP to collect documentation to fire someone and not to spell out performance problems and give someone a chance to improve, you are playing games.

              1. Tio*

                But OP IS giving them a chance to improve. OP never said that they are going to fire them at the end of the PIP no matter what, just that they don’t think the employee will succeed due to ingrained behaviors, which are hard to change. But they’re still giving the employee a chance, and that employee could prove them wrong.

                1. RunShaker*

                  wow, just wow @gresham….you’re missing all points everyone else has made & I’m wondering if you’re the “senior” person that has 35 yrs of experience in this story? PIP isn’t being used as a game & it appears the OP is working with his employee & giving her a chance but PIP is next due to issues (not described) they’ve been seeing. PIPs are used in many cases before a person is fired & is standard process. Its’ too bad you’ve not experienced this in your work world.
                  What is up this week? I’ve seen in few posts negative & unhelpful comments on variouse posts.

              2. MassMatt*

                It’s possible that this problem employee will complete it successfully, though the LW (who knows the situation far better than we do) doubts it. There is no indication that the LW is using a PIP “to collect documentation to fire someone and not spell out performance problems and give someone a chance to improve” so yours is a very odd take.

                I guess when you have a problem employee you don’t “play games” with a PIP and just… fire them outright? Or do you never fire someone who fails a PIP?

              3. inko*

                What makes you think the PIP isn’t going to spell out the performance problems and give this employee a chance to improve, though? Being fairly sure that the employee won’t meet the terms of the PIP doesn’t make it the wrong thing to do.

            2. BoredFed*

              I think that the problem isn’t this employee’s *performance* — it is their *conduct*. OP says that “she doesn’t accept that her perspective and behavior is flawed.” That leads, at least in some organizations to a very different disciplinary path.

          3. LlamaDuck*

            Most functional organizations have policies that prevent unilateral, instant firing in all but extreme cases. This is part of what unions protect.

            PIPs and other documentation rules ensure transparency, so a manager will not firing someone for a petty or unlawful reason.

            Unions don’t want to prevent people from being fired at all, ever; they just want to prevent the kind of unjustified firing that is generally considered an abuse of power.

            Nobody likes paperwork, but paperwork is better than not having reasonable checks and balances on a person with the authority to make life changing decisions.

          4. hbc*

            I think you’re taking issue with the “manage out” phrasing, which sometimes means “make working for you so unpleasant that they quit.” But it can also mean making sure that you give a person every reasonable chance to succeed while making sure that there’s an exit plan.

            I don’t think it’s game playing to lay out “You need to do X, Y, and Z to keep your job” when you strongly suspect they won’t do it in the long run. If a PIP is just paperwork that’s required before a firing you already decided on, then yeah, I’m with you.

      2. Just Your Everyday Crone*

        I think a lot of times managing someone and managing someone out are the same. I have had people who needed a lot of correction and instruction who subsequently left. I don’t specifically know why they left, but it certainly might have been that they were coming to the realization that they weren’t doing well and/or didn’t want to engage in the behaviors they needed to in order to succeed.

    2. Where’s the Orchrstra?*

      I’m half-way guessing there is an offended quitting the place that doesn’t understand or deserve me.

      1. the cat's ass*

        totally think that’ll be the update. Folks like this are EXHAUSTING. Ours just left under similar circumstances and it feels like a holiday miracle.

      2. MassMatt*

        That’s a pretty safe bet. I’m amazed at this employee’s cognitive dissonance: They waste time not doing their work, monitoring other people’s calendars, which is not their job, while saying “is that the best use of your time?”. And say “no one is doing their job” when it’s a high-functioning department.

        1. anon today*

          If I were one of the employees she decided to correct constantly, I would start job searching if it wasn’t clear my ACTUAL boss wasn’t going to stop the harassment.

          Because if my colleagues and I are getting the work done, we don’t need someone coming in to micromanage us based on “having more experience in the field” vs. “being the actual supervisor”.

  2. Claire*

    This is great! Bravo on taking those hard steps. I’m thinking about it in terms of my own leadership.

    1. GammaGirl1908*

      Agreed. I love that LW sacked up and did the hard part, and it was indeed hard, but not impossible, and it achieved the goal. The way out was through.

      I envisioned the declaration the LW IS the boss being like Michael Douglas declaring, “My name is Andrew Shepherd, and I AM the President!” in the movie The American President.

  3. IndustriousLabRat*

    Guess that 35 years of experience didn’t manage to teach her what “senior” means. Good on the LW for facing it head on.

    I can just imagine confronting my marginally younger supervisor like, “LOOK AT ME! I’M THE BOSS NOW.” Can I do that? No?! Ugh you guys are no fun ;)

    1. Keyboard Cowboy*

      As the somewhat-recently-appointed lead on a team who is by no means the most senior person on that team… thanks for the nightmare fuel XD

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        haha, I have exactly one direct report (out of 12) who is not at least fifteen years older than me.

        2. Mongrel*

          Is this a case that you have a group of people who enjoy what they’re doing more than they’d enjoy being a manager?

          1. IndustriousLabRat*

            You make a great point! Some of us, myself heartily included, surely enjoy the type of work we currently do and may never want to Manage. Personally, I think I’d be a bit of a mess as a manager… respect to those who can pull it off with efficiency and grace.

      2. Kyrielle*

        If it helps, about half my team leads/bosses have been younger than me (and I assume that ratio will increase the longer I work), and I appreciate them greatly. I have no desire to occupy those roles, and I’m always glad to have someone who hopefully wants to be doing it, and is competent, in that role.

      3. J. Jonah Jameson*

        I’m a senior (as in long time with the organization) now reporting to someone who has just been hired. Which is good – I don’t want to manage/supervise. I fully expect to be reporting to younger people if I don’t want to be the one being reported to.

      4. Mallory Janis Ian*

        That was raising my eyebrows, too. My boss is probably about 20 years younger than me and has been at our workplace for two years compared to fifteen for me . . . and I’m sure she’d be astonished if that meant I thought I was senior to her in the organization. Even my boss’ boss is younger than me, but she’s been in the org since she was a college intern.

      5. GlitterIsEverything*

        My current lead is 22 years younger than me. Her supervisor has been with the company for 20+ years.

        In my experience, age doesn’t define whether someone will be a good lead, but is can define how someone leads. A lead who is younger than their reports will often tap their reports with more experience or institutional knowledge, while more experienced / entrenched leads don’t find the need to do that as often.

        As long as everyone is invested in making the team work, the respective ages of those involved is generally irrelevant.

    2. Different*

      Ha, I was about 3 months older than my first boss at my last job. Frankly the guy didn’t have a clue, so maybe I *should* have pulled seniority like that… hahahaha

    3. Slow Gin Lizz*

      “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

      But seriously, this person was *in charge* of organizations and didn’t know what it means? Yikes.

      1. Observer*

        I was thinking about that.

        Which is why I suspect that the move to a non-management position was not by HER choice.

        2. Gresham*

          I don’t see anything in the letters to support that. The original letter said she was in management positions at her other companies. There is nothing in either letter to indicate that she started in a management position at OP’s company and stepped down.

          1. Observer*

            No, my guess is that she was either fired or forced out of her prior position. She sounds like she would have been a pretty bad manager. Because even in a position where she did have the standing, her behavior is TERRIBLE management; her ageism is going to be a bad look (at least at decently run companies); it’s possible that she stepped on some toes of “youngsters” in her organization; and she lacks the basic emotional intelligence to keep her from saying that she “hadn’t thought” of the effect their behavior might have on relationships she claims are important to her – and that any effective manager needs.

            1. Tabby Baltimore*

              I think you’ve nailed it. I really hope the LW will return here with an update on whether this employee was ever able to change and behave less … arrogantly.

      2. KateM*

        After I had gathered my jaw up from floor after reading this, my first thought was, too “uh, you know, ‘senior person’ doesn’t mean in workplace the same thing as when getting a senior discount somewhere”…

    4. Seriously?*

      I just changed jobs and my Lead is a year younger than my oldest kid. (I changed professions.) He is very good at his job and had done a great job at training. I do NOT consider myself his senior!

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        I was in my mid to late 30s the first time I had a manager who was obviously younger than I was. But he had more experience in the field, and he was my manager. He was actually a decent manager, too.

    5. ferrina*

      In my very early 20s I had to manage someone who was well into her 60s. Even though I was team lead, she decided she didn’t need to listen to me because “it would be like listening to my granddaughter.”

        1. ferrina*

          She actually stayed on at the company. The manager didn’t want to manage and told me to find a way to deal with someone who refused to listen to me.

          Within a month later I put in for a transfer to another location.

          1. Shirley Keeldar*

            Sounds like you did in fact find a way to deal with managing someone who refused to listen to you. Well done!

    6. ADHDSquirrelWhat*

      Yeah. two points she needs: 1) senior is relevant to CURRENT JOB not previous experience, if she’s new, she’s NOT SENIOR.

      2) there’s a difference between 35 years of experience and 35 years of repeating the SAME year of experience. Growth is not a guarantee.

      “I’m older so I’m right” is something I’d expect on an elementary school playground, not among working adults …..

    2. River Song*

      Agreed. I really appreciated that OP was so open about their own growth. This is a great lesson in leadership and I found this update so helpful in recognizing and addressing one’s own weaknesses in management. Particularly given the contrast of one person obsessed with seniority with no self awareness and OP’s willingness not just to thoughtfully address the issue at hand but also identify and own their own growth through it. OP, major kudos, this kind of self awareness and willingness to learn and grow has and will continue to make you stand out as a manager.

  5. Lynne*

    I’m not sure how far away from giving her a review, but I highly suggest talking to her (and documenting it) each time there is an issue. No matter how awful she is, she shouldn’t be blindsided with a PIP and a list of things she’d done wrong in her review – she should know it has been an ongoing problem. In fact, the PIP should probably be given to her before her review, too. Personally, I feel like anything that comes up in a review should be something that has already been talked about, and if she doesn’t realize how “in trouble” she is, that isn’t fair to anyone. Your other reports will watch how you handle this situation, and if you become known as the boss who springs things on people during their review, it sets you up to have a team of anxious people.

    3. Gresham*

      I was just about to say this. Addressing these issues means addressing them on an ongoing basis as they arise, not storing them up to address all at once. Since it has reached the level of being PIP-worthy, it has also reached the level of letting her know that if things don’t turn around before her 1 year review, she will be placed on a PIP.

      Also, you don’t have to wait for a yearly review to place someone on a PIP. They can be initiated at any time during the year, although good management practice does involve addressing issues on an ongoing basis, being transparent about the consequences of not changing their approach (a PIP), and giving them a chance to avoid the PIP by improving.

      1. Momma Bear*

        This. While not reaching the level of a PIP, I’ve had the experience of going into a meeting expecting X and getting ABC. If a PIP is warranted, do that independent of the review.

      2. learnedthehardway*

        Agreed – besides which, addressing the issues as they occur may cause her to improve on them enough that by the time the annual review comes around, perhaps she won’t need the PIP.

        It does seems like she is coachable, at least wrt behaviour (if not attitude). She may simply never have been coached and developed before – despite her 35 years of experience.

        1. Gresham*

          Just to be clear, perhaps she won’t need the PIP, but probably will still need more oversight and coaching than OP is used to giving.

    4. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

      100% this! My partner was just given feedback in his annual review that was a surprise, and it was really crappy. One of the examples was 5 months old! He meets weekly+ with his boss, it shouldn’t have taken boss that long to get up the spine to mention that it was an issue. So frustrating!

      1. Lynne*

        I had this happen to me in my first “professional” job after graduating from college. I had no idea I was doing anything wrong and would have corrected it immediately if only someone had talked to me. Instead, I developed a very intense fear of review time. It IS so frustrating and I’m sorry your partner had to go through that.

        1. Gresham*

          I have gone from “we talked about this and you didn’t tell me there was a problem” to PIP in under 60 seconds (ok, that’s hyperbole). I went to HR and got the PIP walked back. Having a PIP walked back by HR really undermines your authority, esp. bc the boss two levels up was also involved. My bosses looked bad to me, which they didn’t care about, but they also looked bad to the greatgrandboss, which they definitely did care about.

          1. GlitterIsEverything*

            This.

            I’ve been in the position where things were held for months before they were discussed. Not only did I continue the behavior during those months where I didn’t know it was an issue (and continuing to frustrate the people affected), having a supervisor wait to discuss things with me left me incredibly anxious about reviews for YEARS.

            As in, it took me being in the same company with the same manager (who has never surprised me in a review) for 7-8 years before I stopped being non-functional for the entire day before my review, thanks to review anxiety. I was under that same manager for about 6 years when I stopped asking if I was getting fired at the beginning of every individual meeting. (I work in health care, in direct patient care. One-on-one meetings are essentially our review and if there’s something that needs attention or I’m being asked to do “other duties as assigned.” This idea of regular one-on-one meetings that’s often discussed on AAM is completely foreign to me – I’ve never had regular one-on-one meetings in my 34 years of work, at any company, in any field.)

            TL:DR: Holding things for months can create long-term anxiety in your direct report. Don’t do that.

    5. So they all cheap ass rolled over and one fell out*

      I was thinking that, too. These issues need to be raised regularly and soon after they happen. If you don’t already have a weekly 1:1 meeting, sounds like (for this particular employee) you need to.

    6. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Yes. I hope that the LW is addressing issues as they come up and not saving them all for the review.

    7. Slow Gin Lizz*

      It sounds like OP is doing this. She probably will still deny how “in trouble” she is though.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Oh, maybe not, though. It’s hard to tell but I think y’all are right and OP is saving them all up for the annual review. That said, sometimes it’s easier to address minor issues in a regular weekly or annual review meeting rather than keep scheduling separate meetings for all of them if there are a lot of minor issues.

    8. Ellis Bell*

      Yes I was alarmed to hear that OP is saving various things up with the intent to spring it all on the employee at review time! This is someone who a) needs coaching and b) will knock it off when told to. So, perhaps just tell them to knock it off? I know it’s better when people just know, but when they don’t, just tell them. When it happens! If they need a PIP then they need one now.

    9. Observer*

      but I highly suggest talking to her (and documenting it) each time there is an issue. No matter how awful she is, she shouldn’t be blindsided with a PIP and a list of things she’d done wrong in her review – she should know it has been an ongoing problem.

      Yes.

      OP, so far you have handled things well. But if you are not doing this, it’s something you need to add to your toolbox.

    10. Ramses*

      Completely agree. It’s unkind and frankly poor management to spring everything on her at her annual review. Tell her now and coach her. That’s your job.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        Yeah, that’s what regular one on ones are for. I loathe surprises on a review, and it has made me hate reviews, period (that and great reviews with crappy raises are demoralizing.)

        If I am screwing up or not “reading the room” right I need to know sooner than later. All of my social skills have been learned as an adult, they actually aren’t “natural” to me (thanks, ADHD.) Tell me immediately in a non-judgemental way so I can correct it now rather than later.

        1. ferrina*

          Exactly! If I’m making a mistake, I want to know NOW so I can course-correct. I don’t want to hear months later that I kept making the same mistake that no one told me was a mistake. And it looks terrible on the manager- “if it wasn’t such an issue when it happened, why is it suddenly such an issue months later?”

    11. Another happy they are not a manager*

      Even if the OP does start addressing ongoing performance issues with their direct report, it doesn’t mean that the direct report will recognize that. One key part of my organization’s performance review policy is that nothing in it should be surprise to either party. It’s that way to be fair to both the employee and the supervisor, as well as to protect the organization.

      One colleague had a less than enthusiastic annual review, including some performance issues that were ongoing and they acted like those came as a shock to them. In reality, the issues raised were not new, they were ongoing and had been discussed in multiple long and heated meetings over the past year. The meetings became heated enough that I could hear them shouting at each other from behind closed doors. It reflected more on my colleague’s own perception of themselves as the victim and our shared supervisor as the aggressor and bully, when from my POV, it’s not as black and white as they see it. Both are equally stubborn and don’t mesh well together. It also probably didn’t help their relationship that my colleague put out feelers to HR and higher ups about applying for the job that my supervisor ended up getting, which could have added some tension to an already somewhat adversarial relationship.

      1. FeedbackCat*

        In my experience, the key is to be very concise in the message. Have one topic per discussion. Be very clear what that topic is. Consider saying “If you only remember one thing from our discussion, I need it to be …”
        I think it is natural for us to be friendly and wordy. Neither help if there is an actual issue to be addressed. We all hear what we want to hear.

    12. narwhalofatale*

      Agree wholeheartedly with this! The team member obviously needs to correct her behavior and conduct some introspection; however, this update led me to believe OP had one conversation with her and OP is documenting further comments/actions without discussing them with the report. I would encourage the OP to follow everything you shared!

    13. Lizard*

      Ditto. Gotta talk about these other issues now, rather than later. Performance reviews ARE NOT the forum to bring up new problems or (gasp!) a PIP.

    14. NotAnotherManager!*

      Agree 100%, and this is one of my biggest management pet peeves. Reviews should be summations of annual performance and contain NO new information. This is something I discuss with all my managers during their orientation.

      The purpose of feedback should be for someone to correct something about their work performance. The longer you go without giving that feedback, the longer they’re going to do that something wrong (and without knowing it). I’ve seen too many (bad) managers not give feedback and then have hit BEC with someone by review time – that’s not fair and does nothing to improve work performance.

    15. SE*

      Yes, it should never be a surprise to start a PIP. She should be getting feedback and coaching as things happen, and given explicit information that these issues put her job at risk

  6. A CAD Monkey*

    “i have 35 years experience” well you sure aren’t acting like it.
    Prediction: she will leave over the PIP

      1. dogmom*

        I really wish we could post memes and gifs, because “Michael Jackson eating popcorn” is how I’m feeling waiting for the update about how the PIP will be reacted to!

    2. Observer*

      “i have 35 years experience” well you sure aren’t acting like it.

      Yes, to paraphrase something I heard years ago it sounds like the has one year of experience 35 times.

    3. The Eye of Argon*

      Unless she meant 35 years of experience as a Gumption Gremlin. She’s definitely experienced at that.

    4. Robin*

      Reminds me of a comment my realtor made about the agent of the folks we were buying from. Other Agent mentioned she had been in the business for 38 years or some such. She was really frustrating to deal with and our realtor said something like “nobody good at their job brags about how long they have been doing it; you are either good at it or you are not.”

      Sure there are nuances, but I like the overall approach.

      1. Not Today, Satan*

        This is oh-so-true. If your work/attitude don’t speak for themselves, you have nothing to lean on — least of which is 30 years of being awful to people.

      2. BeeMused*

        Love your realtor’s comment. I once had a nightmare coworker who loved to say she had “20+ years” experience at our institution (starting the minute she had her 20th anniversary), yet she lost a major grant by doing something blatantly wrong that I wouldn’t have done with my 5-ish years of experience.

    5. NotAnotherManager!*

      I cannot with people that think their years of experience are more important than current performance. I don’t care if you have thirty years of experience, if the person with five is doing better work, then they’re more valuable.

  7. Where’s the Orchrstra?*

    Sounds like the new hire was not really prepared for the realities of stepping down in the seniority chart at their new job.

    Or willfully misread the interview and what she was being brought into the organization to do.

    1. Observer*

      More likely she just took what she could get, but never accepted that that’s what she’s getting. And that she couldn’t get a managerial job because… well her behavior and (willful?) cluelessness speaks for itself.

      1. ferrina*

        That was my first guess, but the LW’s original laissez-faire attitude toward management makes me wonder if part of this is a culture fit. It sounds like the organization is pretty hands-off on management, and I wonder if she misinterpreted that to mean that they need someone that can lead. I’ve definitely seen organizations/teams that could benefit from a leader (rather than a disparate group of talented individuals), then balk when a leader comes in.
        No clue if this is the case here, but definitely something for LW to reflect on.

    2. WellRed*

      Yeah I agree it sounds like she’s not transitioning well to a lower role. It happens and it’s why some organizations worry about hiring in this situation.

  8. Really?!*

    I too worked with people who think their age makes them my superior – regardless of actual duties.

    I am a nice person, I swear! I just need you to respect the org chart and do your job.

    1. Emily*

      Yep, I have found this to be a common issue places I have worked with people thinking their age should automatically give them authority. I’ve noticed it usually tends to be people who aren’t actually very good at doing their own jobs, but want to tell other people how to do theirs.

      1. Tedious Cat*

        In my experience, “seniority” often seems to be the last-ditch attempt of people who desperately want authority but are unable to earn it on their own merits to grasp some.

        1. Curmudgeon in California*

          I am senior in experience – over 20 years in a field where people are “senior” with 10 years. That does not make me a manager or even a lead!

          You can have very senior people who are not leads, supervisors or managers. It’s even okay not to be management, but a technical expert. There is a whole career track being developed in my industry for people who are very senior but not managers (and who have no desire to be managers.)

          Technical expertise, especially in STEM fields, does not translate into people management skills. In fact, the combination of good technical skills plus good people management skills is rarer than hens teeth! Unfortunately, only the technical wizards get promoted to management, where they flounder, fail, make people miserable and themselves are often completely miserable. So one can have great people skills and never get to use them because their technical skills are only average, while they will waste brilliant technical skills by making that person try to be a manager.

          Yes, it’s frustrating, and it all makes people in tech a bit salty about it.

    2. Meep*

      I am a female engineer with a Bachelor’s degree and sometimes go toe-to-toe with men with PhDs. Does it matter if they are only a year older than me? Of course not! But sometimes they think such. And then they need something and are sent to me…

      1. ferrina*

        Oh, I have worked with so many incompetent PhDs in my industry. At this point I am immediately skeptical of any PhD that I need to work with (sorry to all the readers that have PhDs! #notallPhDs).

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        No longer have engineer in my title, but used to. The person in the position prior to me usually rolled over and let the engineering teams do what they wanted and just cleaned it up later. I will not clean up the messes that they create simply due to laziness and a refusal to follow process. I enforced following the compliance process. A handful of bUt i’M a SeNior eNginEer attempted to bull their way through. They had very bad days.

        My favorite was the one that told me 1) he had more years experience than me (actually, I have one year more), 2) he’s seNioR and therefore doesn’t need to follow process and 3) I should “learn my place”. He got slapped pretty hard by upper management because he was trying to circumvent compliance processes and ended up causing 100$k+ of damages. He tried to dump the cause onto me, but I am the Documentation Queen, and could very easily show he went against policy, against process, and against what I specifically instructed in writing several times.

        We work together pretty well now that his head is out of his a$$.

      3. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        Oh yes. I started teaching ESL at the age of 20, and most of my students were twice my age. There were quite a few guys, mostly engineers or directors, who disliked having to listen to a “young slip of a girl”.

  9. CheesePlease*

    Bravo for having the hard conversation! It’s not fun to point out bad behavior (oh if manager only ever had good employees!) but calling it out directly was clearly the only way to stop it, and also prevent your team from being harmed by poor behavior! I hope the feedback at the review goes over well, and that your employee grows in understanding.

  10. Emily*

    OP, I think it’s great your addressing this head on. However, I don’t think you should wait until her 1 year review to start the PIP, unless that is the way your company is making you do it. It sounds like it would be better to start the PIP sooner rather than later, based on the issues with this employee.

  11. Jonaessa*

    Wow! My mouth dropped at the audacity she had to say she was the most senior person on the team–someone who had been there less than a year! I’m so glad you were able to rehearse what you were going to say and brought the org chart with you to help her see where she stood. Keep standing firm with the conduct you expect.

    1. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      “Senior” in your overall career is legit, but it does.not translate into “senior” in any specific workplace. It doesn’t mean you know better than your colleagues, it just means you’ve had more opportunities to experience more different ways of doing business. Which is useful! But it doesn’t put you in charge in a job you’ve had for only a few months.

  13. A Simple Narwhal*

    Holy heck, I can’t imagine trying to tell my boss I am more senior than them!

    OP seems to be handling this very well, best of luck to them!

  14. tanuki_skadoo*

    We don’t even play the “I’m the boss” game.

    But, just in case she needed it to be clear: I AM the boss.

    1. ferrina*

      Being the boss doesn’t mean being bossy. It means setting goals, setting up your team for success, and holding team members accountable. It usually involves a mitigating between the higher ups and the team as well (whether that’s helping the team understand what company changes mean for them, or whether that’s actively protecting them from a incompetent company leader).

      A good boss knows when to flex and when to step back. LW seems pretty good at stepping back, but this employee requires a boss that can flex as well. I’m glad LW is working on that and stepping up to manage this employee (who requires a more authoritative approach than LW is used to).

  15. Jessica*

    Ah, it’s classic AAM suspense! So many letters have this dynamic:
    LW: My employee is doing something crazy and dysfunctional.
    Alison & chorus: Go manage already! Have a reasonable and direct talk with them about it.
    LW: [Follows this advice, then reports back that one of these outcomes occurred:]
    (a) I talked to them, they were reasonable and stopped doing the thing, and now everything is fine! I’m relieved that it was so easy to work this out!
    (b) I talked to them, but they are even crazier than I realized, and they totally doubled down on the problem behavior and everything that goes with it! [Things are now a Hot Mess!] and/or [Consequences Have Been Unleashed!]
    Watching from the gallery, we just never know if it’s going to be (a) or (b).

    1. Gresham*

      This was a little a) and a little of b). She did stop Doing the Thing, and then she was even worse than anticipated!

      1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

        She stopped Doing the One Thing OP mentioned as being problematic, but didn’t change the underlying attitude, which now has to find other outlets because the calendars are off limits.

    2. Budgie*

      I submit (c) Before I even had the chance to implement your advice, Problem Employee self sabotaged and is no longer my problem.

      1. Avery*

        Or the rarely-spotted (d): Before I had the chance to implement your advice, Problem Employee stopped causing problems all on their own! Maybe Problem Employee reads AAM too?

  16. Don*

    That is really both gobsmacking and, honestly, a little sad. I have to assume someone that high on their own supply is also, internally, not real happy with where they are in life after their years of experience. I guess that level of self-regard could come without frustration but it seems unlikely to me.

    1. Observer*

      Yes, it is sad. Because it has to be hard to be in a position where you need to “take orders” when YOU want to be the one issuing those orders and where you feel like you are entitled to do so.

    2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

      I’m not sure they have the awareness needed to understand their situation. Certainly they don’t have the awareness to change their behaviour. Like the people who are blindsided when you do what you warned them you would do.

  17. I should really pick a name*

    Please address the issues now, and don’t wait for the one year review. The review should be about how she’s progressed on things you’ve already talked about. If there are corrections that she can make, she deserves to know about them sooner rather than later. And if she won’t correct them, you should know that sooner rather than later.

    Waiting just risks a situation popping up where it would be harder to fire her if you needed to.

    More out of curiosity than anything, I’d love to know in what way she thinks that other team members aren’t doing their jobs.

    1. I should really pick a name*

      Also, if you know you’re going to put her on a PIP, why wait?
      The goal is to improve her performance, and the sooner that happens, the better.

      1. Gresham*

        The more I think about it, the more I want OP to separate the PIP conversation from the review conversation entirely. Reviews should be about both good and bad, and should incorporate everything that has been talked about over the course of the review period. Springing a PIP on her is going to overwhelm the purpose of the review.

        Of course, that assumes that OP is interested in managing Susan Seniority (thanks for that name, Sara without an H) or just wants to drive her out.

        1. Just Your Everyday Crone*

          I think there are places where you can’t put someone on a PIP except in connection with the review process.

          1. Gresham*

            Maybe that’s the case here. We don’t actually know. However, we know OP is not constrained in her ability to have course correcting conversations outside of the review process.

        2. ferrina*

          “Reviews should be about both good and bad”…

          Yes, exactly! Reviews should help the employee know what they are doing right as well as wrong, and ideally help them see what they should focus on for the next year. Totally agree that it would be more effective management to separate the annual review from the PIP convo.

  19. Sara without an H*

    Hi, OP — I went back and looked at your original post, and this sentence struck me:

    I work to have as casual a reporting structure as is possible, preferring to work as a leader coach rather than with a command and control approach.

    You also implied in your update that it was hard to make yourself have a blunt conversation with this employee. Please think carefully: do you tend to avoid conflict?

    Right now it sounds as though you have a team where a relaxed management structure works. Then you got Susan Seniority and suddenly, that didn’t work. In the future, you’re inevitably going to run into situations where your preferred “coaching” management style just doesn’t work, and you need to train yourself to react much faster.

    You should also think carefully about how you interview and hire people. Personally, I would have asked Susan Seniority some probing questions about what she thought it would be like to move to a position where she wasn’t in charge. I would also have tried to draw out her references on the subject.

    Add my name to the list of people who are telling you not to wait for the annual review (unless it’s coming up really soon), and to document your conversations with Susan Seniority. Concentrate on performance issues — if she’s meddling in other people’s jobs, she’s undoubtedly not doing her own. You should also, if you haven’t already, brief your HR people — they need to know where things stand and they may have some useful advice for you.

    Please keep us updated. I’m willing to bet lunch money that Susan Seniority either resigns when she’s put on a PIP or acts out to such a degree that you have to let her go.

    Good luck!

    1. learnedthehardway*

      This is excellent advice – managers really do have to have management styles that are tailored to the people they are managing. Or at least some flexibility to manage a wide range of people.

    2. Ellis Bell*

      The problem with being a leader coach is it will only work with super professional people who are self starters. These are the types who mostly need someone who gets them and keeps their way free and clear. For these people, OP is probably a dream boss; not micromanaging and is on the same wave length. As soon as you get someone in the team with kinks in their judgement though, the whole team needs a stronger hand. If you’ve got someone deluded as to how capable and senior they are, then they need to be intensively managed, up to and including being “bossed” and fired. OP doesn’t sound like she has a lot of practice bringing the thunder but it sounds like that meeting was a great start. Do more of that!

      1. Gresham*

        As soon as you get someone in the team with kinks in their judgement though,

        Those are the people who are most in need of coaching, though!

      2. Just Your Everyday Crone*

        ” As soon as you get someone in the team with kinks in their judgement though, the whole team needs a stronger hand.”

        Why do you think one person should change the way the rest of the team is managed? I think that one person needs a stronger hand, not everyone else who is doing well with less intense management. This strikes me like the group email that’s really addressed to one person’s behavior–just deal with that one person.

        1. Pescadero*

          “Why do you think one person should change the way the rest of the team is managed?”

          They shouldn’t… because there shouldn’t be a “way” the *whole team* is managed.

          There should be individual management for each individual.

        2. Sara without an H*

          Team members shouldn’t all be managed alike, if they aren’t alike. You manage people as individuals.

          In the OP’s case, it sounds as though they had a pretty homogenous team that worked well with light-touch management. Susan Seniority, obviously, can’t be managed that way, and the OP seems to realize that.

          I once spent months encouraging a team that had been severely micromanaged to work more independently. Most of them thrived under the new approach. There were a couple of exceptions who were made nervous by it and needed more management contact, so I made sure they got it.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          No, the rest of the team needs the *one* person to be managed. Thats why the whole team needs a strong boss.

      3. Observer*

        As soon as you get someone in the team with kinks in their judgement though, the whole team needs a stronger hand.

        Why? It’s almost never a good idea to manage a group based on the needs of ONE member. It’s even more problematic when you make changes that are negative to the whole team to deal with one person (absent legal issues, etc.)

        1. Rocky*

          I read “the whole team needs a stronger hand” to mean “Manage this specific employee more closely and let the rest of the team see that”

        2. New Jack Karyn*

          I think Ellis Bell was saying that the whole team will benefit from the manager taking a stronger hand with that one person, not that she should change the dynamic for everyone.

    3. FeedbackCat*

      “You should also think carefully about how you interview and hire people. Personally, I would have asked Susan Seniority some probing questions about what she thought it would be like to move to a position where she wasn’t in charge. I would also have tried to draw out her references on the subject.”

      Fantastic! This is a very important lesson learnt from this experience. In my experience, this is something that behavioral questions can help with. Both from a negative “Tell me about a time when a team/work group you led or were a part of had a failure or setback.” or the positive “Tell me about the most effective team you have worked with. What made them effective? What role did you play in the team?”

  20. ENFP in Texas*

    “Other issues have come up”

    If you are seeing behaviors that are still concerning, I hope you aren’t waiting until the review to bring them up or address them? You should bring them up when they happen. (I may be misreading your email, but it seems like you’re documenting but maybe not discussing?)

    There is nothing in a review that should be a surprise, especially something as surprising as “You’re going on a PIP because I’ve seen this behavior over the past 6 months but haven’t talked to you about it.”

  21. ChemistryChick*

    Good on you for being willing to do the self-reflection, OP. I hope you continue to learn and grow in your position.

  22. Akcipitrokulo*

    Mostly a real good update! You did great in meeting, and didn’t let her disagreement distracted from the main “do not do this” message.

    However… please, PLEASE, do not wait until her review to hit her with other issues.

    That’s unfair. She shouldn’t be surprised in her annual review. Tell her now what the issues are, using the obviously good management skills you used last time, and don’t spring anything on her at a review.

    Least of all anything PIP worthy!

  23. sc.wi*

    Oh goodness. This is exactly why experience doesn’t automatically make you senior… This woman accepted a job that was undoubtably, obviously not an executive/management position, and somehow, believed that she could treat her equals as subordinates and decide to put herself in charge. This is a weird misunderstanding even for much less-experienced employees.

    OP, I think you handled this gracefully. I would have had a hard time remaining calm while being told that I was, in fact, no longer the most senior person, and that my newest subordinate was actually *in charge.*

  24. DomaneSL5*

    I think your new hire is handling everything badly here. BUT! I do think you should ask why she thinks nobody is doing their job (including you). There could be something revealing there.

    I don’t think this person is right for your organization, but don’t completely dismiss her just because she is not handling things as well as she should. I get the feeling she could be at wits end and her moving on would probably be best.

    Also don’t blindside her with a PIP. That is really terrible management/leadership on your part.

    1. Observer*

      There could be something revealing there.

      I would say HIGHLY unlikely. Given her wild misreading of her position, people’s roles and the *performance of the team*, I can’t see anything that she could say that would be sensible.

      but don’t completely dismiss her just because she is not handling things as well as she should.

      The thing is that she is WELL beyond “not as well as she could”. She’s being wildly inappropriate, and her statements are way out of touch with reality. And at this point, she NEEDS to understand unequivocally that she does NOT get to make these judgement calls. It’s not like her performance in other areas is stellar, either.

      1. Irish Teacher*

        Agreed. I wouldn’t assume that somebody who thinks she is “the most senior person on the team” when she’s the newest member (and doesn’t appear to have been hired for a senior position) and who shows poor enough judgement to phrase things the way she did to her boss has made better judgement calls on the work done by her coworkers than the manager who has been working with them all along.

        My guess is “not doing their jobs” translates as “doing things differently than my team did under my management in my last job” or possibly “aren’t giving me reasons for what they are doing (as they don’t answer to me) and I’m interpreting that as they don’t have good reasons.”

        I mean, it’s possible everybody’s out of step except her, but I think it more likely that she just wants things done a particular way and can’t understand why the whole team isn’t changing to accommodate her.

        1. Rebecca1*

          I just want to know (if it’s possible to anonymize sufficiently) what she thinks they should be doing vs what they are actually doing, and why she thinks that.

          1. Where’s the Orchestra?*

            I get the feeling she was a micro-manager when she managed people, and now that she doesn’t have the details on everybody’s projects and completion levels she thinks nobody is working.

            Sounds like this group (with the exception of her) is able to manage their workloads and more needs a manager for assistance in getting roadblocks cleared and approvals pushed through.

    2. BubbleTea*

      My guess is that her idea of working is being at your desk between Xam and Ypm, rather than anything about actual results.

  25. Lacey*

    OP – great job taking the feedback you were given and becoming a better manager!
    I’m sure your other employees are thrilled and you’re making a much better work environment already.

  26. Heffalump*

    Does she have 35 years of experience, or a year of experience 35 times?

    I’ve had coworkers who were busybodies, although not to this extent, and it would have given me great pleasure to strangle them.

  27. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

    I’m curious if the Letter Writer is addressing each of these issues as they come up or saving them all up for the end of year discussion.

    Even if LW doesn’t have faith that the employee will take the concerns to heart, that’s absolutely not a reason to not bring them up as they go. The PIP shouldn’t be a surprise.

    “ Other issues have come up and I am taking the commentariat’s advice to heart: I MUST address these sorts of issues. I am documenting all of this to reflect it on her 1-year review (that will contain a Performance Improvement Plan) and I will be asking her if this is the right position for her. I would have more optimism that this would turn out well if she could accept that these behaviors are not okay. As it is, I don’t see her making it.”

    1. Observer*

      Even if LW doesn’t have faith that the employee will take the concerns to heart, that’s absolutely not a reason to not bring them up as they go. The PIP shouldn’t be a surprise.

      For the most part, I think you are correct. But you simply cannot guarantee that the PIP won’t be a surprise even if the OP does raise these issues with her. Not that the OP shouldn’t raise the issues – they most definitely SHOULD. Just that it’s important to understand the potential limitations. And that they should document the fact that they have raised these issues on an ongoing fashion.

      1. Where’s the Orchestra?*

        I’m fully expecting the PIP to be a shock even if everything is being discussed with her. The manager is having to play “behavioral wack-a-mole” with a person who thought her 35 years of work experience made her senior to her boss.
        I know people can change – we’ve seen amazing turn arounds on this site, but given the lack of awareness displayed so far I’m not overly optimistic.

  28. Cranky Kate*

    “Just in case she needed it to be clear: I AM the boss. And, I cannot have her (or anyone else) policing and second guessing the professionals with whom we work about their priorities and duties. Those priorities are worked out between me and the staff person and no.one.else.”

    Well done, LW! I love this.

  29. Michelle Smith*

    I find this update unclear. If you are holding the issues to address them with the PIP at the one year review, please don’t! Document them sure, but address them as they happen! Don’t ambush people in their reviews.

    If you are addressing them as they come up, just ignore my comment. You’re doing great!

  30. TimeTravlR*

    I hope you’re not just documenting and will address it at her review but that you are also addressing things in the moment. If I am going to get told about a behavior it needs to be timely and not a surprise when review time rolls around.

  31. Reality.Bites*

    I likely would have explained to her than in fact she’s the most junior member on a team of peers, with the least time in this workplace and least time learning how it works. And most importantly, that it is not a management position at all.

  32. A Pound of Obscure*

    Wow. That is quite an update! You would think someone with 35 years of experience would have at least half a clue how leadership structures work. It almost makes me want to have an employee like this sometime so I could have a similar “that is NOT how this works” conversation, which must have been so satisfying! Good job.

  33. ZK*

    My only comment i that maybe don’t wait until the review for the PIP. Start it now so that as Alison often says, you’re not blindsiding someone at their review.

  34. Zorak*

    “I can’t tell you how difficult it was to hold my tongue and not set her straight about years vs. performance and my personal performance”

    This is definitely something you should specifically tell her! That was a perfect opportunity to correct her using that concept wrongly. You should specifically point out to her that that is not now seniority works. It’s literally a wrong definition, and by not responding in the moment she probably feels like you’ve tacitly agreed with it.

    That said, good on you for calling out the behavior! Best of luck with her review and be sure to hold firm on things.

  35. Kate*

    OP, please don’t just document this all to dump on her at her annual review. My boss did this, and I wondered why he didn’t bring up a lot of the items as they happened. It gave me no chance to fix these errors. Please address issues as they comment and then document for a PIP.

    1. Jonquil*

      Agreed – bring up issues as they occur. You still need to document for the end of year review/PIP, but it shouldn’t come as a surprise to the employee. She should be aware in the moment that her behviour or performance is not acceptable.

  36. I'm the Phoebe in Any Group*

    OP, you sound reluctant to let her go. She is damaging to your team and could cause other people to leave. You don’t have to wait for her one year review to go. Firing people is really hard, and it should be hard, but the longer you delay it, the harder it will be and the more damage she will do.

  38. OP/LW*

    OP/LW here (which means that it is me with the Seniority Susan on my team?)

    The PIP will be delivered in January.

    Let me reassure you all that I do, indeed, address issues as they occur. The PIP will contain only those issues that we have had an initial conversation about AND at least 2 follow up/reminder conversations about without substantive improvement. For this PIP, I have three issues that are essential for her to address immediately. There are two issues in addition to the monitoring) that she has addressed and resolved to great effect, and I will be bringing those up as examples of the sorts of adjustments I know she can make.

    My reluctance (okay, fear) about bringing up the calendar monitoring behavior was because it really threw me for a loop. I didn’t know what to say or how to say it!

    The commentariat’s concern that I am delivering the PIP with the Performance Evaluation is a fair one, but I have thought this through very carefully and this approach makes the best sense in this instance. I want to give Susan ample time and grace to adjust to my expectations and with some special circumstances I won’t share here, I am confident that a full year of conversations, reminders, and support was both appropriate and fair.

    We do lots of one on one check ins over the course of a year to discuss issues as they arise, so nothing is ever a surprise on any Performance Evaluation I deliver.

    Some have wondered if I really just want to get rid of this person. The truth is, she has experiences, skills and perspectives that could be very valuable to us. I was direct in the interview process about the difference of this role from her previous roles In Charge, but she assured me that it would not be a problem. I knew this could be an issue and took the chance because of the gifts she could bring to the team. All that said, I am deeply dedicated to her success and am willing to offer any tools, trainings, coaching, etc she needs to make the adjustments we need her to make. However, the well-being of the team as a whole is more important than just one person, so I will absolutely separate this person if need be.

    I will say that the “seniority” issue has improved quite a bit since my last update. I think she really did need to be told, clearly, where she sits on the org chart.

    When I deliver the PIP I will be underscoring how much I want her to succeed and explicitly communicating that this will be the last opportunity to adjust these behaviors.

    I will let you know how it goes!

      1. Paris Geller*

        “PIP’d a person because they were concerned about systemic issues with office culture.”

        . . . this is a bizarre take from the letter & update. There were clear issues that OP mentioned that had nothing to do with “office culture”. It’s inappropriate this person was monitoring her peer’s calendars, full stop.

      2. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

        I have no idea what letter and update you read, but it definitely wasn’t this. You’re massively off base and I just can’t figure out what you think you read.

        A PIP for complaining about systemic issues with office culture? I legitimately have no idea what are you talking about! That isn’t what happened in even the smallest sense.

        Seniority Susan was combing her colleagues’ calendars and trying to boss them around – her peers! That’s not a complaint about a systemic issue with office culture that she was punished for. She was WAY out of bounds! If a direct peer, who was hired well after me, reviewed my calendar every day, reminded me of my own appointments, and told me I wasn’t using my time wisely, I would be annoyed and wary of working with them. She wasn’t punished because she discovered a “systemic issue with office culture” – her completely out of line behavior was managed by her boss (that she incorrectly thought she was senior to!)

        Also, not clear what they do. I mean, obviously that’s the case? Letter writers are often vague about their work so as not to broadcast exactly who they are for anyone who is reading that could figure it out with precise details. I have to wonder if you are new to reading AAM? Have you read previous letters? Do you really think a bunch of letter writers are all teapot designers and llama groomers?

        I also have to wonder if you’ve just worked in really toxic workplaces or not worked very long, because PIPs are not effectively a dismissal. I’ve seen peers excel after being put on a PIP.

        If you don’t think an employee’s conduct impacts production, especially when that conduct involves condescendingly remarking on a colleague’s calendar appointments, I have to assume you are incredibly new to working.

    3. Van Wilder*

      Thank you for further info! I confess that I really just want to know what other annoying behaviors she’s engaging in. But I’m glad that you, as her manager, are committed to her success.

      1. OP/LW*

        Things like:

        -doing what they want to do, rather than what they need to do.

        -not being available for core work because their volunteer/other activities are more important (I think this person did these sorts of things I previous jobs she was IN CHARGE of, but they don’t fit the role she is in with us.

        -trying to insist that processes/protocols be changed to the way she wants things done rather than learning how we do things. If improvements can be made, we are open to that, but “this is how I’ve always done it” does not work.

        -etc.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Thanks for the update and the clarification, OP! And please update us again in 6 months/a year/whenever this situation shakes out one way or another!

Comments are closed.