what workplace norms surprised you when you were starting out?

by Alison Green on January 26, 2023

It’s the Thursday “ask the readers” question. A reader writes:

In my job I manage a lot of people who are new to the workforce and are just starting to learn the typical, usually-unspoken norms of working in an office environment. This could be anything from “can I call my boss by her first name?” to “are these shoes business-casual?” to “is taking a sick day something I should apologize for?” While some of these things vary from company to company, there definitely are some near-universal norms (in U.S. work culture, at least) that most of us learn by trial and error, and no one ever tells us directly.

When I was newer to office jobs, it was easier to keep track of these, but now I’m 10 years into my career and unfortunately I can see myself slipping into assumptions about what new hires do and don’t know. In the spirit of making more of these expectations explicit, could we do an Ask The Readers on things that surprised us when we started out in the workforce?

We can indeed. Readers?

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  1. Chick*

    I’ve got one — how there’s an unspoken agreement to go temporarily blind when in the office gym changing room with coworkers/managers. My anxiety EXPLODED just at the thought of that scenario.

    1. Ho-ho-holey hose*

      Yes! And there will always be some co-workers who love to chat….and they are always the extra blind ones! So don’t feel obligated to chat but also don’t freak out if someone starts chatting when you’re partway through changing

      1. Anon (and on and on)*

        Or in the bathroom stalls! At least in the ladies room. There’s nothing like peeing next to your boss and having them start a conversation with you to startle the heck out of you….

    3. Professional Lurker*

      This reminds me – was there a post on here once about a woman being naked in the office locker room? I swear I saw it on AAM but it wa gone when I came back to read comments and it’s been driving me crazy ever since.

      1. Texan In Exile*

        I have been naked in the locker room at the work gym. How else was I supposed to change into my workout clothes?

        1. bmorepm*

          do you not wear underwear? I took naked to mean wearing no clothes. When I change into my workout clothes, I’m still wearing undergarments.

          1. 1LFTW*

            I’m not the person who commented, but plenty of people don’t work out in the same undergarments they wear regularly.

            My workout/running shorts have integral briefs, because that’s what works for me, and that requires taking my underwear off. Even if I worked out in my regular underwear, I *cannot* work out in my regular bra. Just… no. My exercise bra would not be professional in a work setting (in order to get the support I need, there’s some hefty structural engineering that takes place, and it would be very visible).

            So yeah, if I use the changing room at a gym there’s gonna be partial nudity at least. That’s not even getting into the issue of showering.

          2. Texan In Exile*

            Not with my workout clothes. I change into a very tight running bra and don’t want underpants underneath my tights because they will ride up and I will spend all my time tugging at them.

            And, to 1LFTW’s point, showering is usually done nude. :)

      2. 1-800-BrownCow*

        Hmmm, not sure about that post. But I don’t think I ever shared on here about the person at my first career job. It was a manufacturing company and they had locker rooms for the manufacturing floor employees to keep all their belongs in. The manufacturing floor technicians also had work uniforms they wore and changed into in the locker room each morning. The company recently had hired a new Quality Director, whom had no reason to use the locker rooms because he had his own office. But after he’d been there a short while, we (myself and other office employees) started getting complaints from the technicians because apparently the new Quality Director started coming in early, going into the locker room, stripping down completely naked except for socks and would just wander around talking to people. Sometimes he would place one foot up on a bench, rest his elbow on his knee, and chatted away. We never did find out why he did that, but there was a long list of other problems with the guy and he was eventually let go. Only 5 months in the position before getting fired.

        1. Mim O'rex*

          Quality director was trolling the grounds for pick ups apparently. BTW I actually work in a fitness center and the whole middle age man/old man strolling the locker room naked and chatting is not uncommon behavior. (This I hear from my male co-workers) But this QD is taking it to a whole new level. Weird.

          1. LadyVet*

            I have a friend who has posted on FB throughout the years about the naked ladies she’s encountered in gym lockers over the years. Most of them have a combination of awkwardness and awe, because she wouldn’t have the confidence herself to spend that much time naked around others.

    4. allathian*

      This is odd for me because I’m Finnish, and I’ve grown up with the idea of non-sexual nudity in public saunas, for example. That said, however, there’s absolutely no way I’m going to show myself as anything but fully clothed in front of my coworkers of any gender, ever. Absolutely none.

      1. I take tea*

        I have been both in the sauna and swimming with my colleagues without problem. But then I’m pretty blind without my glasses, so it is easier to imagine that everybody is the same. But I won’t use the same gym as the students I teach, no way.

    5. Sister Spider*

      I worked in a laboratory that required showers out due to the biosafety level requirements – in that case, you learned real fast who had zero chill in a group shower and locker room situation when seeing your coworkers fully nude wasn’t optional and planned your schedule accordingly. Everything was segregated by gender but some people really didn’t mind having full conversations, etc. while naked.

  2. FashionablyEvil*

    In my first salaried job, I didn’t know how to ask for time off. In retrospect, it seems so obvious (ask your manager!) but I would have appreciated someone spelling it out for me.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Yes to this! At my first job, someone on my team said to our manager “hey, I’m thinking of taking either Thursday or Friday off this week–whichever day has better weather” on a Monday and our manager said “no problem, just let me know on Wednesday which day it is” and I was thinking to myself “it’s that easy!?”

      On that topic, it’s also good to spell out what’s an acceptable amount of notice to give before vacation. At the job above, taking a day off here and there could be relatively last minute, but managers generally wanted a few weeks’ notice if you were planning on taking a whole week off.

      1. HipSaluki*

        I’ve heard a good rule of thumb to use is double the amount of time you’re planning to take off. So, if it’s just a day off, a couple days ahead of time. If it’s a week off, minimum 2 weeks ahead of time. And so forth… I try to stick by that and so far in my industry that’s gone over well.

        1. Amber T*

          What’s funny is that our employee handbook states we’re to request our time off (regardless of amount of time) one month in advance. Practically speaking that never happens – I actually mentioned that to HR at one point and she said “really? it says that?” I typically try to tell my boss a week in advance for a day or two off, but there have been times where, on a Monday, I’ve said “hey, last week was really busy, any issue with me taking Wednesday off?”

          1. No Longer Looking*

            My last boss used to insist that we not submit official requests too far in advance – we could email her for approval, but couldn’t put it into the system until 1-2 months out. This was IIRC due to a quirk of our approval system where all of the approved requests floated above the pending requests and made it annoying for her to use the system if too many requests were in at one time.

            I am one of the oddballs who plans out 2/3 of my PTO before the year even starts…

    2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I remember going to work sick so that I could be sent home because I didn’t know that I could just call in sick. It felt weird. I was twenty years into my career before I did not feel awkward saying, “I’m taking a vacation day tomorrow.”
      Like I need to give a week’s notice when I’m out one random Thursday.

      1. ferrina*

        Yes! I was coming off a retail-adjacent job where taking sick time required a Spanish Inquisition before it would be approved. You could be actively throwing up, and they’d ask if you’d tried all the meds yet. It was weird that I could just….say I was sick? and not come in?

        Being able to actually take PTO was a new experience.

        1. Lozi*

          Oh my gosh yes … I still remember one job in high school, throwing up at work, and they wrote me up for going home sick. In hindsight, I wonder if they thought I was hungover … I had actually just gotten back from a mission trip to Mexico and brought home a bug! My first professional job also had weird rules about getting coverage if you were sick and making you feel guilty about it … I don’t miss those days.

        2. LadyVet*

          That really threw me off when I joined the Army, because I enlisted after getting a bachelor’s and working in my field. I didn’t understand why I had to go to sick call to have it confirmed that yes, my cold is so bad it sounds like I’m coughing up a lung. I just wanted to sleep, drink tea and eat toast so the next day I’d be fine!

    3. ek*

      I still have a hard time with this when I just want an hour or two off (for an appointment or errand or what have you) – what do I say? Do I need to make up hours (I’m salaried but still expected to clock 40 hrs)? I’m in the type of job where coverage isn’t important and honestly nobody would probably notice if I’m only out for an hour but I still need to tell my manager something.

      1. katre*

        About taking off an hour ow two for appointments, I’ve had different reactions from different managers in the same company, so it’s really great to have that spelled out.

        We actually have a “Team Expectations” doc that lays out a lot of things like that, and vacation, and working hours/email responsiveness/etc, which is great for making these things explicit and not just assumptions that everyone mostly shares.

      2. Lily Rowan*

        That definitely depends on the job and the manager — it’s good for new folks to ask explicitly! “I have a dentist appointment Wednesday morning, and should be in the office by 10. How do you want me to account for that time?”

    4. Sloanicota*

      It’s brutal when you go from shiftwork, where time off or even just being a little late or needing an hour’s coverage, is a *really big deal* that you need to grovel for in advance and call around to all your coworkers etc etc to white collar hours where you’re expected to half-tell, half-inquire about your PTO.

      1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        Going from retail to an office job was buckwild. I got out of retail in 2008 and I still sometimes marvel that I don’t have to work weekends or holidays. Heck, even leaving work before 6 PM seems indulgent. At my first office job, about three years in, I got a new manager who had just made the transition from restaurant owner/manager to working exclusively in an office. He couldn’t wrap his head around the hours, weekends, holidays, etc. We would have a good laugh about it because he’d come to me sometimes and go, “We’re off the day after Thanksgiving? Seriously? Like….wow.”

        1. turquoisecow*

          I went from retail to office job and it was like “I get to work the same hours every day, ever week, AND I get two days off in a row every week? Sounds great!”

    5. Sangamo Girl*

      In her first “real” job my daughter called me one morning when she was sick to ask what to do. It was then that I realized when she was in school calling in wasn’t something she was even allowed to do.

    6. Quinalla*

      Yup, this one is something I’ve had a lot of new people come ask me because while they know I’m not the person, they aren’t sure who to ask or the process. We always forget to explain this in onboarding, but at least we are very clear to ask us questions so usually it isn’t an issue.

      Also regarding this, if/how/what for OoO message on email and/or voice mail and coverage for when you are out, etc.

      1. JayRi*

        My first couple office jobs you received demerits if you called in sick. And you always had to justify yourself to everyone that you really were sick. It was a sad situation. Yeah people abuse it from time to time but honestly they gave us sick time and the majority truely were sick that it was ridiculous. I remember going i ot work so many times when I should have stayed home for that reason. 20 years later I almost have PTS flash backs when I call in sick.

    7. Jane Brain*

      Same here – I had to be told not to just announce a couple days before that I was going to be off, even if I had arranged all my work and appointments.

    8. ecnaseener*

      Hahaha this reminded me of how I had seen guidelines in our office handbook saying you should request PTO 2 weeks in advance, and the first time I needed a (relatively) last-minute absence, I announced it at a full staff meeting starting with an apologetic “I know I’m supposed to give 2 weeks notice for this, but…” Only later did I realize how much that probably sounded like a resignation!

    9. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yeah, me too! I didn’t know you could just ‘take a day off’ because you felt like it and didn’t need to give your boss a reason.

    10. CRM*

      Oh yes, especially for sick time! In my first job, I thought that I needed to justify taking sick tine by being specific about my symptoms. I’m horrified now remembering the overly detailed emails that were sent to my boss…

    11. Delta Delta*

      This! If you’re not told you may not think you actually can take time off. I didn’t take days off for a long time because nobody told me what to do. Seems dumb in retrospect but I genuinely didn’t know.

    12. azvlr*

      I really wish managers would spell this process out for new hires. As a new hire, it feels incredibly awkward to ask about time out too early, but then as time goes on, it feels like something you should just know, so it feels awkward to ask.

      And for me, coming from the military where there was a clear process, but one that required advanced notice. I still feel weird about asking for time off at the last minute.

      1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        When I was in the Air Force several decades ago, if you wanted to travel overseas on vacation, your supervisor had to fill out a short form and submit it with the leave form he’d approved. One supervisor told me he wanted to write “My daughter has my permission to go on the field trip to London” because it struck him as stupid to do anything beyond approving the time off. It was pretty common for people to take last-minute vacations because flights with open seats were announced with short notice.

    13. turquoisecow*

      I asked my manager if I had to fill out a form or something. (I did not.) Took me a little while to work up the courage, though. I didn’t want to seem like a slacker – even though I think I had been there a month at that point.

    14. Robin Ridley*

      Bit of a reverse situation. I used to work in civil service where clerks were required to request ALL their PTO for the year in January, and managers were strongly encouraged to do the same. (This was a job that required coverage). Exceptions could be made, but requesting time off for July when it was 2 weeks ago would have resulted in being denied.

      Brand new manager trainee goes through orientation with HR, and they explained that everyone earned X number of PTO hours per pay period. They talked about requesting way, way, way in advance. But for Brian, fresh out of college and first time job, did not grasp what they meant by earning your PTO. One month in on the job and he has requests in for all his allowed time off within his first month (he wanted to go on a skiing trip). Our regional manager said, “But you haven’t earned your PTO yet.” I will by the time the year is over, was his response. As his training manager, I had to teach him what this all meant.

      For the record, he didn’t make it a year. Nice guy, and very bright, but not a manager.

      1. PaulaMomOfTwo*

        My job advances all the PTO Jan 1. It’s great, you can use it early or late. Just changes your final paycheck if you quite during the year (and are either paid out extra PTO or pay in the unearned PTO you used). HR didn’t explain that well either, took me awhile to figure it out.

    15. Merrie*

      I’ve always worked coverage-based jobs so it can be a Thing. In my last job, you requested all your vacation time for the year the prior November, and they allocated everyone their preferences depending on their seniority. You could request a day off with less notice than that, but you weren’t guaranteed to get it if there was nobody available to cover.

    16. NotAnotherManager!*

      We have a sheet in our orientation binder that explains PTO procedures. Enough of my team is recently graduates that it just made sense to explain the process for both calling out and scheduled leave.

  3. Galadriel*

    I had no idea what a “1-pager” or a “deck” were — I showed up to a meeting with a 1-page Word document with my thoughts when my boss mean a 1-page PowerPoint slide.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I would not assume one PPT slide, either, unless that were specifically spelled out for me. Where I work, that would be either a Word doc unless context made it clear it was one slide.

      1. Miette*

        Same. I’m a marketer–a 1-pager is a data sheet/fact sheet and presumes a certain degree of professional layout.

    3. Ho-ho-holey hose*

      I think this is also a great example of something where asking for clarification will always make you look better. Every company has their own preferences – including ones that might seem like terrible practice (ahem using a single powerpoint slide and cramming it as full of words as possible…). Ask for an example!

    4. ferrina*

      Yes! I had used Powerpoint once in my whole academic career. I had no idea it would be the lingua franca of business.

      1. cor blimey*

        I expected to use if more often than I do. Which is never. The last time I used Powerpoint was probably in 2003

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      Ah, see, in my industry, a 1-pager IS a 1-page Word document. Often an executive summary and bullet points.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever heard it used to refer to a slide! I’d think of that as “one slide,” not “one page”

    6. KD*

      I’m a teacher and up until 4 years ago all my teaching was in public schools. Moving to a private school meant all this business-speak that I had never heard before. I had no idea what a “white paper” was or what a “strategic bet” meant and to be honest I wish I never had to learn!

    8. Middle of HR*

      I told my husband I was putting together a deck for a presentation interview and he had no idea what I was talking about. He’s been working for a decade longer than I have. I’m wondering if it’s industry to industry.

      1. londonedit*

        I’ve figured out what a deck is from this discussion, but it’s not a term that’s used in my everyday working life.

    9. tamarack etc.*

      A one-pager *is* a one-page Word or Google Docs document in my world! Or even a text file, LaTex, or whatever, with one page worth of text in it. Typically we use it as a short description of a project idea that may grow into a fundable project.

    10. Jonquil*

      I had been working professionally for 10 years before I head a PPT presentation described as a “deck”!

    11. Rekha3.14*

      I only use “deck” when we have master slides, and the presentation likely pulls from those (our master deck might be 50+ slides on all product we offer, for example, but a presentation wouldn’t be all of that but select topics). Otherwise it’s just ‘put together a PowerPoint’ or ‘pull together some slides’. Likely this is just my team or company, though, it sounds like, using deck this way.

  4. TayLovesTacos*

    For me, it was calling anyone in management above my supervisor by their first name. I was working retail for a popular discount chain and they had us all call the managers by Mr./Mrs./Ms. LastName. It was a bit wild to me that a “professional” job was more casual.

      1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        One thing I’ve found is that in some companies (e.g., retail or industrial), most of the employees will never be part of management (however it is defined). Many of these require the use of an honorific for senior people (which might be not-so-senior). In other companies, the theory is that anyone can rise to management. In those, I have found that first names are usually the norm. Of course, there are many exceptions to these general rules.

        1. nobadcats*

          One of my first jobs was at a Famous Hamburger Chain. We had a manager who insisted that she be addressed as “Mrs. FakeName.” She would pitch a fit and fall in it if you addressed her by her first name, even though that was the name on each of our name tags so it was easy to slip up.

          About six years later, I walked into my bank to buy over $2,000 worth of traveler’s checks for an overseas trip. Mrs. FakeName was working as a teller. I must admit that my petty, petty, petty soul enjoyed addressing her by her first name the entire transaction. And yes, she did recognize me from old job.

          Not my most shining moment, but I never claimed to be above the occasional schadenfreude indulgence.

            1. nobadcats*

              It’s a tiny pearl that I occasionally polish and admire its luster.

              My current boss, grand boss, and great grand boss are absolute gems.

              I have only one former boss to slay. Just quietly biding my time.

            1. nobadcats*

              Malicious compliance!

              I could see her seething as we completed the transactions. I kept on saying, “Thank you, FirstName” at every step. My dad was standing nearby and was like, “WTF was THAT all about?” Me: “Just settling old debts.” He approved once I ‘splained.

        2. Lexie*

          And in some places it can be on a person by person basis. I worked in a surgical practice and there were two doctors in our particular office. The older one was “Dr. Last name” and the younger one was “First name”.

    3. Observer*

      That’s not universal – in either direction.

      And that’s probably a more useful thing for newbies to learn. ie “What we did at my last job is not necessarily what we do here. Being respectful is following the expectations of the workplace.”

      1. doreen*

        Yep – because even the name thing can get bizarre and unique. At one of my employers , support staff were called by their first names. Professional staff were called by their last name, no title – until you got to the first level manager. Who was addressed by his/her subordinates by last name, usually no title but when that manager was interacting with upper level managers, every one was on a first name basis all the way up to the agency head. So my subordinates would call me Jones and I would call them Adams, but the head of the agency called me Doreen and I called her Ana.

        2. Richard Hershberger*

          In English cricket, back in the day, there were both amateurs (“gentlemen”) and professionals (“players”) on the same teams. Newspaper reports carefully distinguished between them. The “gentlemen” were “Mr. [last name]” while the players were simply “[last name].” This system finally collapsed in the early 1960s.

          1. Excel-sior*

            And the game has been all the poorer for it!

            (Not really, although the class divide is sadly still alive and well)

            1. Richard Hershberger*

              The real money in cricket nowadays is in the India Premier League. It is hard to see how the players and gentlemen system could have survived the rise of Indian cricket. It was strained by the rise of Australian cricket, the Australians finding the players and gentlemen system some combination of bizarre and hilarious.

              I recently read “Players and Gentlemen,” a memoir/history by Charles Williams (not the Inkling Charles Williams: this is two generations later) about the last years and collapse of the system. Williams played first-class cricket in the 1950s into the 60s. He was the son of a clergyman, and therefore indisputably on the gentleman side of the line, but he was neither conservative nor a Conservative, ending up in the House of Lords in the opposition. (For added weirdness, he also was the step-father of the current Archbishop of Canterbury.) It is a fascinating read, which I recommend to anyone interested in the subject.

            1. Richard Hershberger*

              Fair enough. But the supports where pretty shaky by that time. The system came to fruition in an era when there was a startlingly large leisure class. This didn’t really survive two world wars. The class continued on, but they had to get jobs. Being the right sort of people, these were posh jobs in banks and trading houses, but jobs nonetheless, meaning they didn’t have as much time to spare for cricket. Unless the club could find some way to pay them while pretending they weren’t. Shamateurism wasn’t new, but in the post-war era it became prevalent. The pretense eventually was unsustainable.

              1. Excel-sior*

                The important thing is that even on a blog about (mostly) American working issues we can somehow still find people to talk to about cricket!

        3. DisgruntledPelican*

          This feels so very upstairs/downstairs where all the housemaids go by first names, but the ladies maids go by Mrs. Last Name (even if they’re not married) unless you’re accompanying your lady to someone else’s house in which case you go by your lady’s name and not your own at all.

          1. Jessica*

            Mrs. Surname (married or not) sounds more like the cook. lady’s maid would just be called Surname.

            2. 1LFTW*

              Yes. The governess usually would have been Miss Surname, because she would have been from a genteel enough family to have been educated. Even if though she had to work for a living (unlike a ladies’ maid) she was usually afforded the honor of an honorific.

      2. Texas Teacher*

        Yes it does seem to vary a lot. When I first went into teaching, we of course called each other Mr./Ms. Lastname in front of the children, but in the teacher’s lounge it was first names.
        The school I’m currently in, it’s last names all the time. I even asked one of the teachers explicitly, and they replied, “It’s pretty formal here,” so I haven’t ever tried a first name, even with my team members.

        1. Katie from Scotland*

          I once had a local govt job where I had to occasionally interact with someone who USED to be my high school teacher, but was now working in policy. The urge to call him Mr. Lastname was so strong! Fortunately I saw him in the corridors more than in meetings, so a nameless Hey How Are You worked most of the time as well!

          1. There You Are*

            When I went back to college, I naturally referred to the professors the same way I did my colleagues and management at work: by first name.

            The adjuncts were fine with it but some of the tenured ones became apoplectic, which is strange to me since I got a business degree.

            Oh! And newly-minted PhDs also demanded to be called Professor Lastname.

            1. Nina*

              I’ve found most new PhDs go through a phase where being called ‘Dr. Lastname’ is very very important to them because it symbolizes what they’ve been working towards for so long, but for most of them it wears off pretty fast.

            2. Laura Petrie*

              In the UK it’s normal to call university lecturers by their first name whatever their level of seniority. Professor is also a specific title for someone senior and very experienced.

              1. TechWorker*

                Lol not where I studied! It was Dr X, or Professor X for anyone lecturing. Post docs running classes tended to use first names but definitely not lecturers.

              2. allathian*

                In Finland, it’s totally normal for students to call their teachers by their first names, from daycare onwards. Both I and my son had teachers who asked their students to use their nickname. It goes without saying that the form of address is the informal one as well.

                That said, I never had any trouble adjusting to a more formal system when we lived in the UK, where I called my teachers Mrs./Miss/Mr. Lastname or Miss/Sir just like everybody else.

                That said, discipline in class was always much better in Finland than in the UK, so the form of address doesn’t say anything about the authority the teacher has over the kids. The teachers I had in the UK always had to call in sick if they had laryngitis, because they couldn’t keep order in class without shouting like a sergeant on parade. My teachers in Finland rarely had to raise their voices above a normal indoor voice.

                With that tradition, it would be odd to say the least for me to call anyone by anything other than their first name using informal address in the workplace. In practice, formal address is pretty much the exclusive domain of politicians in public and the armed forces.

                1. Lalouve*

                  Same thing in Sweden – my students and colleagues call me by my first name – except the guy who called me ’guv.’

            3. Grumpy Biologist*

              Academia (context: I’m in the US) can be super weird to navigate and is subject to so many individual whims (and egos). Most faculty I know ask that undergrads in their courses call them Dr. LastName, but anyone else (sometimes including undergrads working in their labs) call them FirstName.

              I go by my first name in a research setting, though, hilariously, especially medical students sometimes take multiple explicit requests to stop calling me Dr. LastName. I used to hope that signing emails as “FirstName” would be sufficient, but medical students don’t take the hint – not sure if MDs take their titles more seriously than PhDs, but calling anyone Dr. LastName in the casual/friendly research environments I’ve worked in feels too stodgy.

              That said, I do use my title when giving talks (i.e. writing “FirstName LastName, PhD” on my title slide) because especially as a woman in a computational field, it helps (some) people take me a bit more seriously. And even then, the mansplaining is never-ending, but that’s a separate discussion.

              1. umami*

                I actually just had this conversation early today with someone. I ran into a manager whom I interact with regularly via email but rarely in person. She said ‘Hello, FirstName’ and I responded in kind, and then she asked me if she was pronouncing my name correctly and if I was OK with her calling me by FirstName or if I preferred going by Dr. LastName. She had heard people saying my name but saying it differently than how she has heard me say it on my voicemail message (it’s not a very common name, and there are a couple of ways it can be pronounced). So yeah, even though I would rather be called FirstName, people generally go with Dr. LastName because they know they aren’t saying it wrong!

              2. * pseudonyms are used throughout*

                I teach a diverse and international set of students. Some are comfortable calling me Buffy while some prefer the formality of Dr Summers. I tell them when I meet them that I’m fine with either. But many decide on the halfway house of Dr Buffy, which I find quite endearing.

                Cannot stand being called Miss/Mrs Summers though! I’d personally rather be called Buffy by everyone. But if you insist on going formal and using a title, use the right one. ‘Accidentally’ erasing women’s qualifications to put us in our place (while carefully titling the men) is all too common.

                1. Worldwalker*

                  *And* referring to the women by their marital status (Miss/Mrs) instead of their qualifications, too.

              3. datamuse*

                I’m in academia too and at my institution it often comes down to the department. Some of my colleagues default to formality and then I’m in the awkward situation of reminding them that Dr isn’t an appropriate title for me (I’m a faculty librarian with a master’s degree).

              4. Nightengale*

                I’m an MD who is trying to get co-workers to call me by my first name when not in front of patients. I usually sign e-mails by my initials. But the culture here towards Dr Lastname is SO STRONG.

                1. tamarack etc.*

                  Yeah, it is. My spouse and I are friends with a veterinarian, who’s also our favorite for seeing our dogs. I have hung out with her more outside her vet duties, and address her by her first name, say, Michelle (NOT REAL NAME). My spouse and I refer to her by Michelle among us. But if we bring in a dog and discuss his or her medical issues with her, my partner finds it incredibly hard not to call her Dr. Oakley. I still call her Michelle, and she calls both of us by our first names. (We both refer to her as Dr. Oakley in front of say the vet techs or reception staff at the clinic, of course.)

            4. whingedrinking*

              I did a double major in creative writing and philosophy. In philosophy, everyone was Dr. LastName, at least to undergrads; even the grad students only used first names for the more relaxed profs.
              In writing, virtually no one had a PhD and all the instructors were either FirstNameOnly or, in a couple cases, LastNameOnly. (The well-liked head of the department and an extremely unpopular instructor had the same first name, and you could often tell which one someone was talking about by their tone of voice.)
              In my own teaching career, when working with adults I would prefer to be called by my first name, but almost all my students come from cultures where the respectful form of address is Teacher. I have new ones all the time, and I figured it was easier to get over my gut-level reaction to that than to constantly correct them. A handful of them have been taught the British convention of calling female teachers “miss” (“sir” for male ones), and that’s generally fine by me as well. Tutoring, for kids or adults, is always FirstName. I’ve never worked in a K-12 classroom setting, but there I would probably go with Ms. LastName.
              The only one that I absolutely will NOT do under any circumstance is Miss FirstName. I hate it with the fire of a thousand suns. I briefly worked for a tutoring agency that insisted on it, and I do mean insisted. I got scolded once for referring to my coworker as “Laura” and not “Miss Laura” where a child could hear. I did not last long there, for a number of reasons.

            5. collateral damage*

              I am a recent PhD, and I explicitly address this on the first day of class: I tell students they are welcome to call me First Name, or Prof. Lastname, or Dr. Lastname–whatever they are most comfortable with. I just ask them NOT to call me Mrs. Lastname. (“No titles associated with my reproductive organs, please,” is my line.)

              They still often call me Mrs. Lastname.

          2. This Old House*

            I work locally as well, with several people who were parents of acquaintances growing up, and one who was a frequent substitute at my high school. When she retired I actually told her I would call her Mrs. Lastname again as it had been too stressful tripping over my own tongue every time I had to address her while we were colleagues. (She laughed.)

          3. Seriously?*

            Just started a new career and one of my colleagues in their 20s was in my 7th grade class. Took her MONTHS to call me by my first name! My Lead, who is younger than my kid, went to my school but wasn’t in my class, which is probably for the best.

          4. Data Nerd*

            My middle school vice principal took a job running a nonprofit that interacts quite a bit with my department. I ran meetings, I assigned tasks, I called everyone else by their first names, including my boss, but I Could Not call him Jack. Took me about a year to get over it.

          5. Jojo*

            When I started working professionally with one of the Dads involved with my Father’s Boy scout troop my dad would call him Mr. Lastname when speaking about him to me. And I’d answer calling the guy Firstname, because he was just a colleague.

        2. Little My*

          I’m in a weird situation where I work in education but not in a school. I’m on a first-name basis with principals, but when I go onsite, I feel awkward asking for Jane when the school secretary is saying Dr. Smith.

        3. Amanda*

          I’m in my 9th year of teaching (also in Texas). The first school I worked at, a lot of the teachers called each other by our last names (though no Ms, Mrs, Mr), even out of earshot of students. Now, at my 4th school, it seems to be more common to use first names, though some people I still call by their last name.

        4. Thunderingly*

          My daughter’s principal signs emails “Chris” and it’s so weird to me! Of course the kids still call him by his last name.

          1. Eff Walsingham*

            When I first left post-secondary school (2 years out of high school), I moved into a small apartment complex across the street from my former high school. Our principal, Mr. Smith, was well-regarded but terrifying, never standing for any nonsense.

            Vehicle fobs had just become a thing (dating myself) and some young bozo was trying to impress his friends by repeatedly setting off and disarming his car alarm remotely before classes one morning, right below our window. My roommate worked nights, so with no small pleasure I phoned the school, asked for Mr. Smith. He picked up saying, “Dave Smith” and I replied, “Good morning, Dave. I’m a resident of the (Address) buildings, and one of your students is making a nuisance of themselves with a car alarm at the north end of the building… Oh, you will? Thank you so much.”

            The noise stopped very shortly. There was no recurrence. I felt very grown up. Dave and I, we know the score. ;)

            1. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

              My former doctor is now retired. We’re friends on FB, and we were at the same synagogue for a while. I could never bring myself to call her by her first name, it was always “Dr. Stark”, not “Arya”. And I was in my 50s at the time.

        5. amcb13*

          That’s wild to me–unless it’s because it’s so hard to learn two sets of names for new people! Whenever we have new teachers I either learn their last name, if they start mid-year and they’re introduced to students first, or their first name, if they start in September and we meet as adults first. Getting the second one takes me ages!

          The part I struggle with as a teacher is how to address parents. I want to open communications respectfully, but I don’t want to seem overly formal or stuffy. I usually open my first email with Mr/MsLastname (and even that feels presumptuous because they’re just in our system with their first and last name and relationship to the student–I have no way of knowing if someone prefers a different title or honorific). If they sign their response with a first name I’ll switch over, but only in the last few years as I’ve started to catch up in age to the parents of my students’ age group.

      3. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, I appreciated straightforward instructions on how to address people in the workplace. For example, I worked in a retirement community, and I probably would have defaulted to Mr/Ms for the residents if they hadn’t told me to call them by their first names.

    4. Prospect Gone Bad*

      I’m mid-40s and one of my coworkers is in his 60s and I heard upper management say it’s silly that I am calling him “Mr. Smith” instead of “hey John.” People in their 20s go up to him and say “hey John” and I cringe inside. Am I the only one who doesn’t want to pretend we’re all at the same level and likes at least some structure in the work world?

      1. Colette*

        Why does “structure” to you mean treating people differently based on age?

        I assume you think that calling him Mr. Smith is more respectful, but you’re actually singling him out as being older, which isn’t really respectful.

        1. Gerry Keay*

          Because “structure” here actually means “hierarchy.” It means “I want to treat people differently based on social status, and I want to know immediately what my status is in relationship to their status.”

          1. Modesty Poncho*

            Which, to be fair, can be really comforting sometimes. I get it. It’s part of the reason I enjoy medieval and regency fantasy stories. But it’s not actually based on full respect in the real world

        2. Prospect Gone Bad*

          That’s only true if you consider being older a negative though. Which, if you don’t make that connection, you don’t even think like that. Not a thought that crosses my mind. This guy has amazing experience so it feels bizarre to talk to him in the same exact way I talk to interns and such that need loads of hand-holding.

          Also someone below is mentioning “social status” as if it’s a dirty word. Some people have amazing experience and it’s completely reasonable to handle them differently, speak to them differently, and give them added perks, in exchange for their experience. Isn’t that the point of, you know, getting experience?

            1. Asenath*

              Formality is a change from the typical behaviour and a change in behaviour can indicate an acknowledgement of someone’s status, that it is different from that of oneself and one’s peers. It can work the other way, too – extreme informality, rudeness, and even ignoring someone’s existence can be ways of signalling “you are not as important/reputable/otherwise less than me and my peers”.

            2. Magenta*

              Generally in the UK formality would indicate dislike rather than respect. (Unless you are in a pub and things are going wrong in which case people get overly friendly and call you “mate” or “pal” far too much).

              If someone insisted on using my title and surname at work I would constantly be wondering why they hated me!

              1. Confused Canadian*

                Your comment about the pub reminded me of the time a man in London called me “love” (which, as a Canadian teen, I thought was a positive) and then followed this by saying “move out of the way, you stupid f—ing woman”. Really gave me whiplash. Also, I wasn’t a “stupid f—ingw oman”, I was a stupid f—ing girl since I was a TEENAGER. Some people’s children!

                1. Emma*

                  Christ, that’s grim!

                  In the north of England, ‘love’ is a general friendly term for a stranger. If someone points out that I’ve dropped something, I’ll respond “Ta love”, for example. It’s also often used to soften something that could be taken as impolite, like if someone is in your way you might say “Excuse me love”, to make it clear that you’re not annoyed. So it is generally a positive thing – but clearly not in the case of this rollocking arsehole!

            3. Cthulhu's Librarian*

              It doesn’t. Working in libraries, I deal with a lot of members of the public who I despise, based on their past behavior to me and my coworkers. EVERYONE on staff always refers to them, to their faces and when they aren’t around as Mr. Blank, or Dr. Last Name, or some other formal address. We do it specifically to distance ourselves, and shut down any attempts at personal small talk. It works about 60% of the time.

              Patrons who are wonderful and nice people, that we all look forward to seeing? They get referred to as Alice, Steve, or Saul, both in conversation among ourselves, and to their faces.

          2. ok ya'll*

            I thought the point of gaining experience was to learn, not so people would treat me like I’m special.

          3. Exhausted Honking*

            You can’t tell someone’s experience based on their age or what age they appear to be. I think it’s odd that you talk about speaking to people a certain way but don’t mention if you refer to people the way they prefer. If I ask to be called FirstName and you call me Ms. LastName, that’s wildly disrespectful. If you had a manager that was younger than whatever age you’ve decided is the age where people earn those “perks” you mention, how would you handle that?

            1. Prospect gone bad*

              Didn’t say people did? I said my coworkers have excellent experience because they do. Didn’t expect this to get litigated word by word like this

              1. Annabelle Lee*

                You’ve stepped on the “social status bad” nerve and they’re conveniently ignoring the “be kind” rule

              2. TechWorker*

                I think there’s a school of thought (and probably a group of people!) where being called ‘Mr z’ or ‘Ms X’ is seen as respectful, but then also a whole group of people who *dont* want to be referred to in that way and so won’t see you doing it as a positive. They won’t necessarily complain about it directly – but I definitely wouldn’t assume their reaction is ‘oh lovely this person respects me’ rather than ‘oh this is awkward, this person is weirdly formal’. That goes doubly if everyone else in the office uses their first name.

          4. Beka Rosselin-Metadi*

            Does that mean people you work with who are higher in the work hierarchy get called Mr/Mrs/Ms but peers and below get called by their first names? It’s not a criticism-I’m just curious. I’ve worked in a small, privately owned company-it was bought by a much larger company which was in turn bought by a much larger company-but we all call each other by first names, no matter age/position/history with the company or anything like that-and that goes from the CEO on down, so I find delineations very interesting.

            1. Prospect gone bad*

              There is no delineation, that’s what I’m saying is weird! It would be like if somebody walked up to the president and said yo Joe wiz up and gave him a high five. People would and should think it’s weird. It’s weird to be around sometimes

              1. Baron*

                I come from a country where this would, indeed, be the normal greeting for the head of government/state! It’s weird to me how a lot of Americans like to pretend the president isn’t just some dude. (No disrespect to the current president; Washington and Lincoln were also just dudes, and deserving of the same respect you’d give the kid working at McDonald’s, and not an iota more.)

                I think you’re conflating the idea of respecting someone’s expertise with being deferential to them, which is fine, if that’s what works for you. I work every day with rich, powerful people. I respect their knowledge, their abilities, and everything they bring. I call them by their names, because they’re…humans, with names.

                1. Aglet*

                  I think Americans are respecting the Office of President in the way they address the current or former holder of that office more than respecting the dude that holds the office.

                2. Common Taters on the Ax*

                  I am very curious about what country this is where it would be typical for the citizenry to call the head of state by his or her first name, or at least what region it is in. I mean, typically the heads of state themselves don’t do it in public. I guess I don’t know what they call each other in private, but I have a hard time believing King Charles would call President Biden “Joe” or vice versa. Even the various prime ministers, who aren’t heads of state, seem unlikely to until they know each other well. And do you also call judges by their first name?

                3. Bluey*

                  In Australia we don’t call the Prime Minister by his first name because it’s too long. We call him by his nickname, “Albo”.

                4. RandomAntipodean*

                  *Raises hand on behalf of Australia*
                  Our Prime Ministers in recent years have been folks very widely referred to by names such as Kevin, Scotty, Albo…

                5. Elleoelle*

                  Same as commenters below, Ireland here. Our president’s full name is Michael D. Higgins, usually shortened to something like Mickeldee.
                  Our taoiseach (prime minister) is only known as Leo.

                6. Texan In Exile*

                  “typical for the citizenry to call the head of state by his or her first name”

                  It would depend on whether I’m meeting the person socially or professionally. If I were an elected official meeting him for a work event, I would call the governor “Governor Evers.” But if I were meeting him socially – which I have, I would call him Tony. And if I were meeting Joe Biden socially, I would call him Joe.

                  (Plus Tony Evers is one of the least pretentious people you will ever meet.)

                7. Emma*

                  I’m trying and failing to imagine meeting any of my country’s current government and referring to them as anything but “you malicious scumsucker”.

                  However, I’ve met various MPs, mayors etc and have always had them introduced as, and referred to them by, their first name. “Hi Maria, it’s nice to meet you” etc.

                8. LadyVet*

                  I kind of have a hunch that Joe Biden misses being called “Joe” by everyone on first reference.

              2. MigraineMonth*

                I was raised Quaker, which has equality as one of its principles. Early Quakers got into a great deal of trouble for refusing to use titles of respect or the English formal tense (instead speaking to everyone with thee/thou/thy). The respectful way to address one of the meeting Elders is by their first name.

              3. Worldwalker*

                I’m assuming from this discussion that you’re British. (though I may have been primed to think about that by all the talk of cricket I’ve just been reading) A country with a hereditary aristocracy would naturally think in terms of social stratification. One that aspires to be egalitarian would, on the other hand, tends to treat all people equally, neither better nor worse based on their social status.

                The US military is an interesting example. It has an absolute and rigid hierarchy. But a four-star general is *obligated* to return the salute of a buck private, and the general would address him as “Private Smith” just like that private would address the general as “General Jones.”

                1. UKDancer*

                  I’d definitely find some aspects of the US more hierarchical. I used to work for a chap with a knighthood who was CEO of the company. Let’s call him Sir James Bloggs. Everyone in the company called him Jimmy or JB. He was a fairly down to earth chap with a knighthood for giving money to the Tories. We met our US counterpart company once and the staff there all called their CEO “sir” and were way more deferential than we’d ever think of being.

                  Also I’ve met some hereditary peers (which is surprising given how few of them actually exist) and none of them use their titles socially or professionally. Sometimes they use their surname which is very English public school, but mostly not. My parents have a friend with a baronetcy and he’s just Ned. Most of his social circle don’t even know about the title and his colleagues (he’s a computer programmer) certainly dont.

                2. heretoday*

                  Not really. Someone superior in rank is free to use the last name without the title.
                  General Smith said, “Jones and Dawson! Get out there and see what the holdup is”
                  “Sulu, full speed ahead”

                3. Database Developer Dude*

                  (US Military – Army) While someone superior in rank is free to address subordinates by just the last name without the title, it’s still considered rude when done in a social setting or a normal work setting, and not disciplinary.

                  It also depends on the relative ranks. A four star general is not going to call his deputy by lastname only, but a Sergeant might do that with his direct subordinates. Chief Warrant Officers normally get called Chief Lastname or Mr. LastName, but we mostly use first names among ourselves when there’s no other ranks around.

                4. LadyVet*

                  In the Army we didn’t address officers with their rank and name, we used either “Sir” or “Ma’am.”

                  Technically warrant officers were supposed to be addressed Mr./Ms. Last Name, but usually were all called “Chief.”

                  The enlisted ranks address each other by rank and name.

                5. Teapot Wrangler*

                  I don’t know – I’m English and I would find it immensely weird to call people with whom I work anything other than by their first name. Even people who are definitely multiple steps up the hierarchy are still Jo and Andrew not Miss Bettany and Mr Woods….

          5. Lydia*

            Gaining experience isn’t to gain perks and it certainly shouldn’t confer more social status. Really, the most important part of this is it doesn’t matter what you think you should call them, it’s what do they prefer to be called?

      2. Fluffy Fish*

        Someone’s age has no bearing on what I call them in the workplace. Calling someone their name is in no way disrespectful.

        Id actually go so far as to say you not referring to him as John if that’s is his preference is disrespectful.

        Names have nothing to do with structure either. Calling my boss by his name does not suddenly make us equals. There’s zero confusion who is at what level.

        1. Becky*

          I’d say actually that calling a boss by their first name reminds us that we ARE equals (as people) despite the corporate hierarchy.

          1. Prospect gone bad*

            It’s probably a whole separate conversation but I’m learning the more time I spend online that people are a little too focused on everybody being equal in every situation. I’m not sure where that need comes from. I don’t know why it’s a problem that some people have higher level jobs or some people like judges are in more formal positions and you say “yes judge” and not “yo dude my man”

            1. Modesty Poncho*

              That’s not what Becky was saying. The judge might be in a higher position of authority but that doesn’t make them a more worthy human being. Historically, it’s easy for this kind of formality to lead to people forgetting that. Evening the playing field with first names can help the CEO remember that just because they have more of the money they aren’t a better person than the receptionist, and also help the receptionist remember that they aren’t a worse person than the CEO.

              1. umami*

                It’s not unusual in some fields for honorifics to be used, not as a sign of worth but as a sign of courtesy or respect. And depending on where and how you grew up, using honorifics can be so ingrained that it feels disrespectful to not use them. I think this is one of those issues where no one is right or wrong, it’s more of a YMMV.

            2. Parakeet*

              But “judge” is a specific role, and when you’re in court you’re acknowledging that that’s the role that person is playing in that context. “Mr” is not.

              There’s also an awful lot of ground between using title + surname and the “yo dude my man” level of informality, that you keep eliding. It’s normal in the US, in most fields, for coworkers to refer to each other by first names (and it’s not a political statement about equality regardless of situation). However, it would not be normal, in most fields, for coworkers at the same level of an organizational hierarchy to greet each other as “yo dude my man” unless they were friends outside of work. Or for a supervisor to greet a report that way, even though the report is below the supervisor in the org hierarchy!

            3. Worldwalker*

              You say “yes judge” in court, but if you’re playing poker with him after hours, you might well say “yo dude my man.”

              Because a judge *is* just a person, no more, no less. The “judge” part is the authority of their job, and if and when they are no longer a judge, they leave it with the job for their successor.

            4. Michelle*

              I think part of the issue here may also be that older workers tend to be discriminated against. (That’s why laws seeking to protect them against discrimination exist in the US.)

              By addressing this one coworker differently than your other coworkers, you are “othering” him – underscoring his status as a member of a group that is commonly discriminated against.

              Presumably you wouldn’t call your male coworkers by their first names and “other” your female coworkers by calling them Ms./Mrs./Ms. Lastname out of “respect,” right?

              Of course, the simple, one size-fits-all answer is to ask the person if you’re unsure how they prefer to be addressed.

        2. Chirpy*

          I had an office manager who made her kids call me “Miss Firstname” and would call me that in their presence. This might be more common in the state she grew up in (although, southern California? Not as far as I know?) but around here, it’s deeply odd. (I grew up calling adults Mr/Mrs/Ms Lastname or by just their first names if they were family/friends). It weirdly made me feel less respected (like I was a weird in between level of not fully a respected adult, but also something more formal than a friend? Like a babysitter. Not least because she would also dump them in my office area to watch TV during the day, but I also got a lot of age/childless discrimination in that office, particularly led by her.)

          1. Qwerty*

            It’s also a daycare thing, I’ve noticed some friends doing this despite it not being how we grew up. A lot of daycares have the kids call the adults Mr/Miss FirstName, so in the kids mind the convention is
            – FirstName = My friend (usually a kid)
            – Mrs/Mr LastName = Parent of my friend whose first name is not relevant
            – Miss/Mr FirstName = Adult who I should listen to

            Personally I’m curious what the kids will start calling me once they reach elementary school and the teachers start going by last names instead of firstnames. But my understanding is that it still indicates fully respected adult.

            1. TomatoSoup*

              I never felt fully comfortable with it at daycares, but it was how teachers introduced themselves so I went with it. Part of that is coming from a school culture that is very formal about addressing teachers and also my dislike of the Miss/Mrs split.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            Being called Miss Firstname creeps me out, since I strongly associate it with slavery on plantations.

            Call me Firstname, call me Ms. Lastname, or call me FirstName LastName.

            1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

              Yeah, I hate being called “Miss FirstName”!

              Why?:
              1. I’m married (Mrs or Ms, not “Miss”)
              2. I’m 61 (“Miss” is for women under 30, tops.)
              3. I’m a feminist (Ms, if female, Mx if non-binary)
              4. I’m non-binary with a female wallet name (Mx, and use my initials or my last name.)

              So if someone, usually a stranger, calls me “Miss FirstName” they are deliberately negating four things about who I am. If they start a conversation like this, they shouldn’t wonder why I’m hostile.

              I am usually too busy seething while they carry on their spiel to correct them.

              1. Eff Walsingham*

                I have a friend who teaches in a school system where all pupils are expected to address all teachers as “Miss” and I think it’s bizarre. Not the least because it’s a religious school, and my friend has 2 kids (never married to either dad, not that it’s anyone’s business. But… they’re not *secret* children!)

                It’s like they’re trying to create a fantasy land where all teachers are beings with no outside life / life experience. Especially the women?

                1. Worldwalker*

                  Formerly, if female teachers married, they were summarily fired. And women were always designated by their marital status. So teachers *were* always Miss someone-or-other.

          3. Common Taters on the Ax*

            This used to be the norm in the American South for an adult you knew fairly well but with whom you weren’t intimate. For example, my grandmother called an adult friend of my parents Miss Firstname. It is still somewhat common for small children to be taught to use it with adults who aren’t their teachers. My friend had her kids call Miss Firstname. I’m surprised to find it in southern California, but it’s possible her parents were from the South and taught her that.

            1. Allison Wonderland*

              Yeah, this is how I grew up in the south. Teachers at school were Mrs/Mr/Ms LastName, and the parents of my friends, or my parents’ friends, or other adults, were Ms/Mr FirstName. How do kids address adults in other places? Calling an adult by just their first name would have felt very strange as a child, but calling a family friend by their last name would feel too formal. Of course, it becomes a bit strange as you get older and are still calling your friends’ parents Mr/Ms, but it’s also just habit.

              1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

                Speaking as a parent of school-age children, I’m addressed by other people’s children either by my first name or (by very small children) as “George’s Mom”, where George is my child, obviously.

                The sole exception is that the second I step on to the school campus I am Mrs von Klinkerhoffen, because all adults (except the school cook, and I don’t know why she’s an exception) are known by Title Lastname.

                1. zaracat*

                  yeah, despite my daughter’s school friends all knowing my name, the kids always just called parents “X’s mum/dad”. It’s become an ongoing (shared) joke for them to do that even as young adults.

              2. MigraineMonth*

                I grew up in New England, and I would address teachers and friends’ parents as Mr/Mrs Lastname. My parents’ friends/close friends of the family were Firstname.

                Many kids would also refer to close friend of the family as Aunt/Uncle Firstname, even if they weren’t related.

              3. Teapot Wrangler*

                For me (UK, mid-30s), it was Mr Surname on first introduction at which point the adult said “Call me Firstname”. Definitely sometimes felt too informal, we all used a lot of “X’s Mum”, “Can you ask your Dad” but Miss Firstname would never have been an option – if we had to put something on, it’d be Aunty or Uncle Firstname. That was definitely much more common a generation older than us (and in black and Asian households) than amongst my friends or now my friends’ kids.

          4. Jojo*

            I first encountered this in New England when I was in college. It was weird the first time someone called me Ms. Jojo. Now, my boss does it, but it’s not that weird anymore. In both cases, it was only done with women, never men…which…hmmm. But it doesn’t bother me.

          5. daen*

            Friends of mine had their children calling adults by Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms Lastname. Even made a point of saying to me (and probably others) “This is how we’re choosing to do this; I hope you can respect that.” Which I could. (Although it amused me greatly that their youngest almost never referred to me by name; it was always “Mom, your friend is here!”)

            Then their oldest came to intern at my company. We are strictly all-first-names-all-the-time. So I just let them know that, no matter how they referred to us outside work, using last names at our workplace would come across as odd.

            I actually have no recollection of them calling me by my first name except in the occasional email, years after. They may have completely avoided the firstnaming for the entire length of their internship(s), now that I think of it…

            1. Lydia*

              The thing is, they weren’t respecting how some of those adults preferred to be addressed. It feels like asking you to respect their decision to disrespect your preference (assuming you prefer not being called Ms/Mr Lastname).

          6. Not a Morning Person*

            I think it is a pretty common experience in the south for adults to be called Miss/Ms and Mr “first name”. I did that as a child for most, maybe all, of my parent’s friends and the parents of my friends. We even continued that into our early adulthood but gradually dropped it. It’s still something I come across, but not as frequently.,

          7. Magenta*

            I’m in the UK and at different times I have had two recent grads from Cyprus work for me. It was both of their first jobs and they both called me “Ms firstname”, with both of them I explained that I knew that they were being respectful, but that it was really not appropriate at work in the UK.

        3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I’m British but my first job was in Germany. Everybody used first names all the time, BUT used the polite version of “you” to bosses and the informal “you” to each other.

          This was a while ago so I wonder if it’s changed by now.

          1. Wonderer*

            When I worked in Germany, people only used first names when they spoke in English. When they switched to German, they all started using formal titles and last names!

        4. Confused Canadian*

          Right? I call my boss my her first name all the time. Doesn’t mean she’s magically no longer my boss because I don’t call her “Ms. Boss, PhD” or something.

      3. Firm Believer*

        If someone called me Ms. XXX I would look at them like they were crazy. It’s not grade school.

        1. Bubba Bo Bob Brain*

          This. …and in the other direction, I hate it when people try to be overly familiar by arbitrarily nickname me with a shortened form of my name. “Hi, I’m Robert.” “Great to meet you Bob!”

          No, it’s Robert, that’s why I said Robert.

          The most respectful thing you can do is simply address people how they’d like to be addressed.

          1. Chirpy*

            Yeah, I have a fairly short, unusual name that does not have a diminutive form, and it just feels so disrespectful when I introduce myself as “Chirpy” and someone replies “can I call you Chir?” No, no you may not, that’s both not my name and also not even a name at all, just call me by what I told you, please.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            I’ve had it go the opposite way. I’ll introduce myself as “Bob”, and some people try to call me “Robert”. Except my legal name really is “Bob”.

            1. Worldwalker*

              I used to work with someone named Dolly who, during a discussion of names once (sometimes it got very boring around there!) recounted that she had gotten in trouble in school when she was quite young because she refused to answer to Dorothy, saying that wasn’t her name. Which it wasn’t; her name was in fact Dolly.

            2. Merrie*

              My old boss went by either “Ricky” or “Rick”, and we were all very confused when someone called asking for “Richard”. Not his name. He was legally Ricky.

          3. Fluffy Fish*

            Im a Rebekah and theres always people who want to call me Becky which has NEVER been a name I use and I actively hate (for myself, I obviously do not hate that other people go by Becky)

          4. Lydia*

            Exactly. I worked with a guy who was introduced to me as Matt, but introduced himself as Matthew, so I made sure to clarify which he preferred and call him by that. It’s not very difficult. And sometimes I would slip up because the diminutive is more common (and is also what my brother goes by), but I would correct myself and move on.

          5. Texan In Exile*

            I used to shorten peoples’ names until I met my friend David in college. I called him Dave and he asked if he should call me Stupe.

            I don’t do it anymore.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          My first workplace thought that the best way to create managers was to pressure individual contributors into taking the promotion, then doing nothing to train or support the managers. (On the bright side, the managers always understood the technical details of my job. On the downside, they didn’t know how to manage and clearly just wanted to be doing my job for me.)

          My coworker John became my manager John, then went back to being my coworker John. I think it would have been odd to change what I called him for the year he was managing me.

      4. Agoraphobic Ailurophile*

        My Fortune 15 company does first names up and down the chain both directions but when I’m talking a SVP I soothe myself by calling them sir or ma’am. I’m from the Deep South and I just can’t not show respect somehow!

        1. Tanner*

          I really dislike people calling me Ma’am. I am from New England. If someone repeatedly called me this instead of my name I’d be fairly annoyed, though I would probably tell them not to call me that.

          1. TechWorker*

            I don’t think I work with many people from the Deep South – I have one colleague who does use Sir and Ma’am and I find it aggressively weird. She’s otherwise absolutely lovely and uses a tonne of other phrases I find odd though so I have learnt to just ignore it. If anyone I managed called me Ma’am though I would absolutely tell them to stop!

          2. Eff Walsingham*

            When I first worked in retail I fell into the habit of addressing customers as sir or ma’am, and one lady complained. I summoned my supervisor as requested, my supervisor heard her out, and responded, “I’m sorry you felt disrespected, but I’m not going to reprimand a member of staff for calling someone ma’am. I don’t see how she could have predicted your reaction,” and walked away.

            I tried to get away from it as it seems to be losing popularity in this region, but it’s one of the challenges of front line customer service: trying to be respectful yet friendly yet efficient at all times. Sometimes in the thick of it we use a clumsy phrase and hope it’s not the last straw for that customer on that day.

            1. Texan In Exile*

              I worked at Macy’s in Memphis and learned pretty quickly that the only thing to say to a customer who was angry about something was “Yes ma’am. Yes ma’am. Yes ma’am.” I wasn’t going to try any harder than that for just $9/hour.

        2. Army of Robots*

          When my New England company had in-person meetings that had to confer with our Southern staff by conference phone, we’d all be in first-name mode, but the Southern Dev would sometimes reply to questions with, “Yes, ma’am.” And the room would fill with a sort of … amused tolerance? “Oh, right, we’re talking to someone who Isn’t From Here.”

        3. Confused Canadian*

          Tbh, if you have a southern US twang and call people ‘sir’ or ‘ma’am’ I think most North Americans wouldn’t be bothered or surprised. But then, maybe it’s just me because I think southern accents are endearing.

      5. There You Are*

        Yeah, my co-workers are in their 20’s and 30’s; I am in my mid-50’s. As co-workers, we do the same job. It would be seriously weird and othering if any of them called me “Ms Lastname”.

        Hell, my *managers* are in their 30’s. “Ms. YouAre, can you come into my office for a second?” “Sure, Christy!”

        Our consultants are almost exclusively retirement-aged folks in their late 60’s to mid-70’s who enjoy the mental stimulation of part-time gigs. I direct their work during the weeks they work for us. It would be wild to address them as “Mr” and “Ms”.

        Howsabout we leave age out of the “what to call coworkers” equation?

      6. Critical Rolls*

        I’m not sold on the idea that hierarchical honorifics lend meaningful structure to a workplace, especially not if you’re applying them laterally, to a coworker, as opposed to up or down the org chart. Additionally, an honorific isn’t the whole way you talk to someone; using or not using one really, really doesn’t mean you’re addressing the C-suite the same as the interns. Seems like the better way to show respect is to respect the person’s wishes, and go with the company culture (this has a bonus effect of not doing a performative thing that no one else is doing).

      7. Laura Petrie*

        I’m in my 30s but have managed people over twice my age. I’ve also had managers younger than me. I’d find it weird to call some colleagues by their first name and others by their surname

      8. DataSci*

        Do you call your 20-something co-workers Mr Lastname and Ms Lastname as well, or is this just a “respect your elders” thing? You don’t say anything to indicate he outranks you or that he wants to be addressed formally.

      9. Momma Bear*

        Depends on the context. I call everyone up to the CEO here irst name but at a previous job one of our directors was MRS. Smith and you needed to always, always remember the MRS.

        In this case, if John would like to just be John, call him John. The “structure” comes from things like deferring important decisions to the higher-ups, prioritizing meetings with the bosses, etc. I might call both the Intern and the Director by first name but how I treat them is very different.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          This. I respond to my coworkers differently based on our roles (e.g. deferring to my manager’s decisions on work distribution and offering the newest person on the team help), not to the hierarchy.

          This is particularly important to my job because I provide support to another department, so I’m not reporting to them and they’re not reporting to me; I’m the technical expert and they’re the workflow expert.

      10. Oryx*

        I’m early 40s and call our CEO by his first name. Everyone calls our CEO by his first name. He’s in late 60s, early 70s. So I don’t think reducing it to age is applicable across industries and experiences.

      11. RagingADHD*

        You might be one of the few who values a self-imposed hierarchical form over looking weird to upper management.

        I have worked in orgs that used honorifics for people in certain roles or above a certain level. I have no problem with it, that’s the culture of the institution. And if the prevailing culture is first names, I have no problem with that either. I have multiple ways to show respect to my coworkers or leadership.

        But if management is going to talk about me for something, I want it to be something positive about my work or prospects. Not that they think I’m silly.

    5. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I have one. Worked in the head office. Call the CEO and VPs by first name. Moved to satellite branch. The branch manager was Mr Smith.
      Ok then.
      New manager level guy came in, Hi, I’m Bob.
      Sorry. You are not.

      1. DataSci*

        “Call people what they want to be called” is pretty basic. Enforcing formality when someone asks for informality isn’t any better than the reverse.

        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          So awkward for both of us. He kept signing notes and emails with his first name. I kept not doing that, because I didn’t want to hear about it. Part of my role was to teach him office dynamics.
          We were both mid 20s and we had to pretend that there was some class line because I sat in the outer office and he had his own. He felt like, we were both kids from the suburbs, grads of local colleges, rode two buses to get there, but walk into the office and he’s the prince and I’m the pauper.
          Yeah, dude. Welcome.

          1. TechWorker*

            I’m literally so confused by this comment – you’re annoyed at him because he signed off using his first name – which is totally reasonable and normal to do, even in an office where some people choose to use ‘mr lastname’. And it’s awkward because he felt you had things in common and you didn’t…? So confused…!

          2. NeutralJanet*

            “He kept signing notes and emails with his first name. I kept not doing that, because I didn’t want to hear about it.” I honestly don’t know what this means–you didn’t want to hear about his name? Was he not just…signing his name? I don’t feel like reading someone’s name is “hearing about it”, so I’m thinking there has to be something I’m missing.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        I’m confused. Did you not want to call him Bob because you thought it would be disrespecting his position to do so? Or did you think he was putting on airs for wanting to be called by his first name like the CEO and VPs?

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I wonder if that tends to be regional though. In California, I’ve been calling adults by their first names my whole life and Mr./Ms. was the exception for certain circumstances but not the norm. I’ve been working for 30 years so it’s hard to remember things that were new…but I guess I had to learn to be more formal in an office environment.

      1. UKDancer*

        In the UK here and I’ve never worked anywhere which didn’t use first names. Even when I worked for a chap with a knighthood we called him Jimmy not Sir James.

        1. Former call centre worker*

          UK here too, working in retail and the ‘calling the shop manager Mr/Mrs’ thing I think was definitely a thing in the past, and I occasionally hear it if someone is calling for the shop manager over the tannoy, so it might be hanging on a bit in some contexts. The other place I’ve encountered it was when working in education, with some teachers seeming to be expecting to be called Mr/Ms/etc by other staff in non-classroom contexts, which I as admin staff found weird and uncomfortable.

        2. londonedit*

          Yep, UK here and in nearly 20 years I’ve never encountered a workplace where anyone was addressed as Mr/Mrs/Ms rather than their first names. At school here kids call the teachers ‘Mr Smith’ and ‘Ms Jones’ (or at secondary school, more usually just ‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’), but it’s been first names for everyone in every office I’ve been in. We also don’t routinely use Sir and Ma’am like parts of the US do, unless it’s a very formal situation (and then it’d be Sir and Madam, say for instance if you’re going into a posh restaurant).

          2. The Prettiest Curse*

            Yeah, I think you might only have to use sir or ma’am in the UK if you’re a butler for the aristocracy, you’re meeting a member of the royal family or you work somewhere super posh like Claridge’s or Fortnum and Mason.

          3. Beka Rosselin-Metadi*

            But what about
            Don’t call me señor! I’m not a Spanish person. You must call me Mr Biggles, or Group Captain Biggles or Mary Biggles if I’m dressed as my wife, but never señor.

            Sorry, I wanted to toss in a little Monty Python.

          4. Timothy (TRiG)*

            As a child, I noticed an interesting difference between Ireland (where I lived) and England (where my parents are from, and which we visited a few times a year). Adults were simply FirstName in Ireland, but Uncle/Auntie FirstName in England.

            1. TechWorker*

              Was this ‘all adults’ rather than ‘ones that were literally your aunties and uncles’ :p?

              I do know friends who call all adults aunties and uncles but they tend to have inherited that from their other culture (Eg Caribbean) rather than it being standard in the U.K.. Could be wrong!

              1. londonedit*

                It’s a bit of a middle-class thing, I think – we called close friends of my parents ‘Aunty Jane’ and ‘Uncle Stephen’ when I was a small child (white British middle-class upbringing). It wasn’t all adults, though.

              2. Miss 404*

                Could be a regional or in-group thing as well – up until a certain age (I think around 13), I also called every adult in my religious community Uncle/Auntie. On the rare occasions where I needed to mention someone on the outside, they were always “X’s mum/dad”, which means it took forever to find out anybody’s names when I did start calling them by their first name!

              3. Magenta*

                I’m white, British, upper working/lower middle class from the East/South East of England.
                Other than for actual aunts and uncles as kids we used the title for very close friends of my parents, their best friends where the relationship was as close as a sibling relationship, all other adults were just first name.
                I was the last of my friendship group to have a child and my friends did the same thing, where I have very close friends their kids (when they were little) call me Aunty firstname and when she is talking properly my daughter will do the same to them for as long as she wants to.
                But this is about the relationship, they are very close friends, almost like sisters and the title signifies that closeness. Other adults that don’t have that close relationship with the child/parents don’t get the title.

              4. Timothy (TRiG)*

                To agree with much of what has already been surmised:

                * friends of parents or of grandparents,
                * mostly, but not exclusively, white,
                * in the south of England (Bedfordshire and Kent),
                * mostly middle class,
                * in an insular religious community (Jehovah’s Witnesses).

                The same social situation in Ireland was first name only.

        3. Forrest*

          I have once in the UK! When I was a medical secretary the doctors were Dr Lastname and the secretaries were Firstname, and it was freaking WEIRD.

      2. Becky*

        When I was a kid, I called adults by Mr/Mrs Lastname but as soon as I hit 18 I consciously made an effort to call adults by their first name.

        1. Neurodivergent in Germany*

          I grew up in a fairly conservative village (I’m in my 30s) where you addressed neighbors with the formal you.
          At around the age of 14 (confirmation in the Lutheran church), people who had known me as a toddler, started addressing me that way too. Super awkward!

          I’m a teacher and it is convention here (four schools so far) that students call us Mr/Ms Lastname and we refer to other teachers that way too, but call each other FirstName in front of the kids too.
          Weirdly, at my current school, admins and aides use last names when addressing teachers and only teachers can offer to use first names (typical convention in my area is that the older person gets to offer)

      3. MigraineMonth*

        Midwest here, always called coworkers/managers/CEOs by first names.

        I’ve noticed a bit of a gendered thing where some men call each other by their last names (no title), but since they call me by my first name I call them by their first name.

        1. Anna Badger*

          you get the men calling each other by last names thing in the UK too – I’ve always assumed it’s a hangover from school sports (or boys’ private schools, where students’ first names are used less often, I think.)

          I sometimes get included in the last name rotation, and I’ve never been sure if it’s an indicator of comfort or if they somehow think I’m one of the lads or if they just really enjoy saying my last name (which is satisfying to say)

          1. Mr. Lastname*

            Where I worked this was a practical matter. We had SIX guys named Mike in one department (actually their cubes were all adjacent to some degree as well). Calling each other Mr. Lastname was really the only way to keep confusion down.

      4. Kaisa (The Librarian)*

        I think it might be a bit generational too. I grew up in the midwest calling all adults Mr./Ms, but I’ve never felt inclined to have my kids’ friends call me anything other than my first name. I also work with teens and try very hard to get them to call me by my first name rather than Ms Librarian (this does get a tad awkward at school visits when I introduce myself as Kaisa and the teachers are all going by Ms. Lastname, but it is what it is).

    7. DaveDave123*

      Yes, in fact I often use this as a way to judge if the work and hierarchy is performative or if it the work really matters. When there’s lots of formality that’s often there to enforce a hierarchy that isn’t real. But when the formality goes down, then the work is more real and the work and responsibility highlight the actual hierarchy and and not the titles.

    8. College Career Counselor*

      Shades of “Are You Being Served?”

      “Mr. Humphries, are you free?”
      (glances about obviously)
      “Why, yes, Captain Peacock, I am at the moment!”

      2. GreenShoes*

        They actually had this exact episode… Mr Grace comes back from America and decides everything should be more relaxed:

        Mr. Rumbold: …and we must all call each other by our first names. Mr Lucas, what is your first name?

        Mr. Lucas: FORGET ABOUT IT! Just call me Mr. Lucas.

        Mr. Rumbold: We can’t have that, now, can we Mr. Lucas! Tell me your first name.

        Mr. Lucas: [after a long pause] *Dick.*

    9. GladImNotThereNow*

      I’m in a tech company, and everyone goes by their first name, but I have a mental block referring to the company founder by other than Dr. . Similarly, if I met one of my college professors from 30 years ago it still would be Prof. . Just doesn’t feel right otherwise.

      1. Amy Farrah Fowler*

        Yep! I struggled with this in college. I had one instructor who told us the first day “I’m not a doctor, so you can’t call me Dr., I am not a professor, I’m an adjunct, so just call me <>.” My freshman brain was mortified at not having an honorific. I did my best the entire semester to just never say his name at all.

        However, I’m now in my mid-30’s and have no problem calling my boss or anyone else at our company by their first name.

        1. Albert "Call Me Al" Ias*

          I had a class once that was team-taught by a husband/wife team. Their introduction on the first day was “I’m professor (lastname), this is also professor (lastname), so just call us by our first names. We also have college aged kids, so we’d probably respond to Mom and Dad also, if it slips out.”

        2. Ashley*

          lol This reminds me of a professor I had years ago. On the first day of class, she said “I have one request. I worked hard for many years to get my doctorate, so please – call me Doctor (first name), Doctor (last name), Doctor Teacher for all I care, please just use Doctor!” haha She was the best!

    10. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      I work for a University and almost all the professors go by their first names – to staff, to students, to everyone. Only the president tends to use the honorifics.

      Except one department within the university that everyone goes by Dr. and I am so bad about doing it. I first name them all the time out of habit.

      1. UKDancer*

        When I was at university we called everyone by first nam e including the chair of the department (Mike) and all the staff except the visiting German professor who was Professor Dr Dr Schmidt. He was the outlier. The ethos was that we were sharing the journey of learning as equals.

        Not sure how common that is but we weren’t formal I mean we called the chancellor Sunny rather than Sir Shridath, everyone did. It was his preference.

        1. RecoveringGradStudent*

          When I was in grad school undergrads called professors Dr. LastName, master’s students went either way depending on professor and if the student worked in their lab, but PhD students almost universally just called professors by their first name or maybe LastName, no honorific. I say almost because there was an older professor who only allowed his students to call him by his first name until after they defended and were a Dr themselves. It was A Thing.

      2. Anyone*

        When I was in college, one of my good friends was the daughter of a professor who ended up being my advisor, and I had him for several classes. He was very firm that he was John when I was hanging out in their basement, despite every instinct I had to call him Dr. Smith there. It took a while, but I finally got it. I also managed to never call him John in class, which was way more important as far as I was concerned!

      3. ecnaseener*

        The Dr’s are the hardest to figure out lol! I’ve gotta check the directory to see if you’re a med student or a resident or whatever, ok you’re a resident so I’ll default to Dr. Lastname until you sign an email with your first name – and then uh oh I have to address an email to both you and your PI who hasn’t indicated I can use their first name, so I better go back to Dr for both of you so as not to imply I respect your PI’s degree more than yours…..

        1. Forrest*

          In the UK, surgeons switch BACK to Mr/Miss when they reach a certain point in training, and it’s an appalling solecism to call them Dr. Surgeons are wild.

          1. TechWorker*

            Haha I never knew this! I had surgery a couple of years ago and always thought it odd she signed off with ‘miss’. TIL

      4. Bookgarden*

        When I was an undergrad, at the turn of the millennia, the vast majority of my professors wanted to be called by their first names at my school. I’m not sure why this broke my brain coming out of high school, but I just couldn’t make myself call them what they preferred. Instead, I made the logical choice to bend over backwards to never call them anything at all.

        I tried as hard as I could to never use their names when speaking with them. If I had to say their name I tried to say it so fast that it came out like a mumble or a sneeze (picture Ash Williams trying to remember the unholy words to remove the Necronomicon from its pedestal).

        I don’t remember if I got over that as an undergrad, but the following year I went to grad school and had gotten over that and called professors what they asked to be called, mostly their first names.

        1. Confused Canadian*

          I had the same problem! I remember feeling SO weird about calling profs by their first name and going out of my way to ever address them by name. I probably made things way more awkward than they needed to me.

      5. Indubitable*

        On the west coast, I was a grad student in one field, and firstnamed all my professors.

        Now as a university staff member in the Midwest, I still call all the professors John (or whatever) — but in this field, the grad students I work with address their profs as Dr. Smith. Which leads to email like “Hi Sally — please ask Dr Smith (copied here) about this issue. John — fyi.”

    11. Agile Phalanges*

      I worked in the academic dean’s office of the college I went to, so we called EVERYONE by their honorific, often Dr. So-and-So. It was weird to start working in a non-academic setting and just call people by their first name. It felt “wrong” for quite a while.

    12. lb*

      Ugh, it makes me cringe when I hear employees calling their managers Mr or Ms. I really, really detest those policies.

      1. Merrie*

        I’ve worked in retail settings where we did that. I think it’s more for the customer’s benefit, in that if you say “Oh, I’m gonna call Mike” it doesn’t really inspire confidence, “I’m going to call Mr. Smith” makes it sound like he’s a person of some importance.

    14. Esprit de l'escalier*

      In English-speaking countries, all you usually need to think/worry/obsess about at work is whether to use firstname or honorific-lastname. I wonder how this is currently playing out in countries where the language itself distinguishes informal and formal address.

      My reference point is French/France, where it used to be a kind of relational rite-of-passage when the more senior person would say (in French of course) “you can use ‘tu’ with me now,” ie no need to continue with the formal ‘vous.’ I assume that even very hierarchical workplaces have loosened up quite a bit by now, but is that still a problem for junior people?

      2. MigraineMonth*

        My understanding is that European languages are moving quickly toward only using the informal forms of address (though French will of course dig in its heels).

        Which I find somewhat ironic, since English dropped its informal address (thee/thou/thy) and kept its formal one (you/you/your).

    15. Michelle Smith*

      I’m so confused by this. I have never called any managers by their Title Last Name except for in formal writing to an external client or in statements made on the record in court. They would have thought I was bonkers for doing so.

    16. PostScription*

      I encountered the opposite as a newbie wage worker in academia. My boss was a professor and told me “When it’s just us in the lab you can call me by my first name but in front of people you must call me Dr. …”
      Needless to say, I never called him by his first name.

    17. L*

      I worked at a retail store and transferred to the same store in a different city where I guess the culture was different and I was BAFFLED that in the new store, all the managers went by Mr. and Mrs. Last Name, primarily. I could never get used to it and often let first name slip (the managers referred to each other by first name, further confusing things). I think everyone thought I was the rudest person when I’d forget.

    18. MsClaw*

      Especially as someone who grew up on the american south, this was a habit I had to break as well. My jobs as a teen, we definitely called the bosses Mr./Ms, and then I worked in universities where my bosses were Dr. Whatever. Calling my boss Roger instead of Mr Smith when I was 23 was a shift.

    19. another poster*

      agree with this one. one of my first bosses was former military and EVERYONE called him Mr. LastName. It was an office job, and everyone else went by First Name. It was bizarre. I work with a lot of MDs now, and we usually call them Dr. LastName, and everyone else by first names.

  5. Dust Bunny*

    This wasn’t really an across-the-board thing, but at my current job everyone goes by first names regardless of position. My previous jobs all had a sharp distinction between bosses and support staff–you were either Dr./Mr./Ms. Lastname or you were Firstname. It felt weird at first but since I didn’t know anyone’s last name right away I had to get used to calling them by first names pretty quickly.

    1. Mallory Janis Ian*

      I’m support staff in academia, and whenever I’ve started in a new department, it’s been habitual to address the professors as Dr. Lastname; usually at that point, they say, “Oh, no — call me Firstname” and then I do, except when talking about them to or in front of a student, etc. There have been a few that have never said, “Call me Firstname”, and so they are Dr. Lastname from then on out. I noticed that nearly ALL the women faculty would say “Call me firstname” and most of the few who never did were older men. I felt awkward when in a large group of them and I would be calling them Susan, Kate, Melissa, Dr. Gentleman, and Dr. Dude, so I started calling them all Dr. Lastname in those cases.

      1. TootsNYC*

        some of that gender split is that addressing someone by an honorific is age-linked; you use “Mrs.” or “Mr.” for people older than you. And women are conditioned to loathe and fear being seen as older.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        See, I know quite a few women academics who absolutely insist on being Dr. or Professor Lastname specifically because their students often feel they can one-sidedly decide to call them Firstname, where they wouldn’t with male professors.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          And I know a couple of people whom I can call Firstname socially but would definitely call Dr. Lastname if we bumped into each other in a professional setting (I work in an academic/medical library, but these are people I’ve known socially since I was a kid).

        2. ProfessorTeapots*

          I’m a woman academic. If the world were different my personal preference would be first name, but in reality I use “Dr. Teapots”. Why? Because I have noticed over the years that if I don’t indicate my preference the students default to calling me by first name and calling my male colleague, who has literally the exact same qualifications as I do, “Dr. Colleague”. So I ask to be Dr. Teapots to make the point that yes, women can have advanced qualifications and be in positions of authority as well (I’m now the programs chair of my department).
          The ones who continue to call me by my first name tend to treat me in their e-mails like I’m someone’s admin assistant (often that same male colleague despite him being lovely and not encouraging it at all), which is frustrating (no offense to admin assistants, that’s just not my role and they’re making an assumption purely because of my gender!).
          FYI, despite all this, colleagues call me by my first name unless we’re interacting with students. That’s the norm in my country (Canada) – calling a work colleague Mr., Mrs., or Dr. definitely comes off as odd with the exception of the occasional older colleague who insists on it or colleagues from other countries who are used to different cultural norms.

          1. Pippa K*

            Similar experience here, sister academic.

            I recently co-taught with a (wonderful) male colleague who is of the “call me FirstName” school in dealing with students. He knows why I and a lot of women academics don’t do that, so he was conscientious about referring to me as “Dr. K” with students – which is very typical at our university anyway. By chance all our students in this small class were women, so one day when he was out, I took the opportunity to talk to them explicitly about why I use my title with students and he doesn’t, and how that relates to gender and professional roles and social norms. We ended up having a really good talk about gender and race and status and equity in the workplace, and what they themselves might experience as they enter professional life. It’s not often we get a chance to discuss this forthrightly with students, and I really valued the discussion we had.

            1. AustenFan*

              I do this, too! I’m female and I’ve gone by Dr. First letter of last name for a long time. I do that because of gender differences in respect towards faculty. When students graduate, I tell them they can call me by my first name, but most are too weirded out and always call me Dr. Initial letter.

              I still find it odd to call my favorite professors by their first names and I graduated from college in the late 1980s.

          2. That's Dr Buffy to you*

            At a conference I was recently introduced without the Dr, which wouldn’t have bothered me except that my PhD student was simultaneously introduced with one, which he doesn’t have.

        4. fueled by coffee*

          Yes, although (personally at least) this would be something I insisted on with students and not necessarily support staff. I *think* the difference is that I see support staff as colleagues in an office environment (hence, first names) and students as, well, students.

        5. Mallory Janis Ian*

          I know a couple of women faculty who insist on being called Dr. Lastname for that reason. When they’re in my office with the door closed and we’re laughing and chatting, it’s Firstname, but out in the hallways, etc., it’s Dr. Lastname.

      3. tamarack etc.*

        Thanks for being so thoughtful about this. As a non-tenure-track grant-funded research academic, and a woman who’s more junior than typical for my age (because of my unusual career trajectory), my preference is simple first-name, but when I’m publicly introduced as [myfirstname] while someone I’m acting in a peer situation as (panel member, next speaker, …) is [Dr X], then that is not ok without good reason. (There are occasional good reasons, like when everyone in *our* department uses first names, but we address the visiting scientist by their honorific – that’s ok!) Your solution is the right one – just upgrade everyone to Dr. X for the occasion.

        Similarly, my former PhD advisor, who I am on first name basis with, will introduce me to new people with my doctorate. I am still a little embarrassed when she does this, but we all understand why she is.

    2. Last Names Only*

      In my first job after college, the big boss was an older Brit who called everybody by their last name, regardless of gender. For the (American) men, this felt more natural, but less so for the women. I (a woman) didn’t care, and felt like it maybe indicated being one of the gang in a positive way.

      Until someone referred to me by my first name and he didn’t know it!

    3. Mr. Shark*

      I’ve never, in any job I’ve had, called people by their last names. It’s always first names, no matter whether it was the intern to the CEO/President.
      Part of that to me is that there is no *age* that determines how far someone is up the ladder. Now that I’m a little older, there are plenty of people younger than I am who are senior to me in position. Some people I knew when they were junior to me and we actually hung out outside of work and were friends, but because of career paths, they are now higher up in the food chain.
      It would be absolutely strange for me to now call them Mr./Ms. XXX. And there’s always the issue with the women who are at those level, do you say Ms./Mrs./Miss? It’s just easier and more reasonable to just use someone’s first name in a business situation.

    4. Wannessa*

      This can be so fraught. I work in healthcare, and it’s customary to refer to our physicians as Dr. Name, both as a sign of respect and as a nod to the fact that our org doesn’t directly employ the physicians (we legally can’t in our state). But, folks in my position are often members of workgroups chaired and run by our physicians, who generally refer to each other by their first names during casual chit-chat. But the physicians refer to each other as Dr. Name when they’re calling official votes in those workgroups. It’s such a weird, convoluted dance to be respectful but not inappropriately formal, and it so easily leads to Drama!! when, e.g., a physician refers to the physician chairperson by their first name when it should be their title.

      I try to just avoid calling people by name. Thank you, remote work.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Haha I was temping in a department before I was hired to a permanent position, and the engineering professors all got into a very heated argument, right in front of the departmental reception desk, about whether my fellow staff member and I were allowed to call them by their first names or not. Several of the professors had told us to call them by their first names within the office suite, and several others had a Problem with being so addressed by staff. After witnessing an argument so heated we feared it was about to come to blows, my colleague and I immediately started referring to everyone as Dr. regardless of which side of the argument they had been on — it had become too fraught to do otherwise, and we were like, it’s more trouble than it’s worth to get it wrong with somebody.

        1. Mallory Janis Ian*

          Edited to add: The professors who had a problem with it didn’t have a problem only with the way they, themselves were addressed; their problem was with ANY of the other professors allowing themselves to be so addressed.

  6. Kate*

    When I was first starting out, I found work-appropriate chit chat about your weekend surprisingly difficult. I was 22 and single; everyone else at my workplace was married and would chat about spouse, kids or the lawn. It felt oversharey to say “I’m going on a date this weekend” (because the natural followup would be for them to ask about it and now here I am evaluating a potential romantic partner.) Cooking and food were a good landing place.

    1. The Original K.*

      Ha, I’m over 22 and single and childless and still stick to neutral topics when asked about my weekend, usually my hobbies (one of which is cooking). If I went on a date to a place I liked, I’ll reference the place – “I tried a great restaurant, The ABC Cafe, have you been?”

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Yeah, I don’t think of myself as my cats’ “mom”, but I don’t have anything but cat stories to contribute when a coworker is talking about the funny/gross thing their child did.

        2. Opheliasprozac*

          At my first job out of college, the dog I had for basically my entire life had recently passed away. I talked all the time about walks I went on with Oliver, things he did, etc. Finally my boss asked me if I was hanging out with Oliver this weekend, and he looked horrified when I told him no, because he was dead. It was then that I realized he thought Oliver was my boyfriend…

          1. Moonlight Elantra*

            Reminds me of the episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine where they can’t tell, based on him talking about his weekend with Kelly, if Scully’s talking about his dog or his wife.

          2. Seashell*

            I hope you didn’t talk about Oliver licking your face.

            A former college friend of mine posted on Facebook about Riley chewing cords under the desk. I wasn’t sure if Riley was a pet or a small child.

      3. Chirpy*

        Also still single and childless and past 20s, and I never know what to say as a “neutral” weekend answer, as my hobbies tend to be VERY geeky and my manager is definitely a jock (who generally answers “that’s neat” but clearly has no idea why anyone would do what I do)

    2. lifebeforecorona*

      I cringe now on how much I overshared at my first few jobs. No one needed to know everything that I did all the time.

      1. HMS Cupcake*

        OMG me too! In fact I cringe at a lot of things I said and did throughout college and my first job. Too much know-it-all oversharing and too little self-awareness.

      2. Sloanicota*

        I also just lacked perspective on how certain things would land to older, perhaps more conservative colleagues who were further from the college scene. I must have seemed like quite a bimbo and a partier back in those days *dies of embarrassment.*

        1. Eff Walsingham*

          I left a job in part due to persistent oversharing on the part of coworkers. The two worst offenders were a VP and the CFO, both about ten years younger than me. I’d be hip deep in troubleshooting an office machine, and one of them would be telling me details about his pregnant wife’s cervix that I can now never un-hear! Both were in the years of new fatherhood, and I think stress might have blurring some boundaries for them. But I felt it was really, really inappropriate… and I thought that their wives would, as well!

      3. Butterfly Counter*

        Oh yes.

        I’m lucky in that I tend to be quiet around new people, so I was able to rein it in relatively quickly, but the conversations I practiced in my head were VERY different than the conversations I actually ended up having at work.

        1. Chilipepper Attitude*

          When my now closest friend but new coworker (29 years my junior) asked me if her clothing choices were professional, I said something like, typically people show some skin of the leg (short skirt) OR skin at the top (low cut, spaghetti straps) but not usually both.

          She replied, well they do on Sex and the City!

          We laugh about that now

      5. cam*

        same, I was single and meeting people off the internet, and there were far too many bedroom details. I cringe thinking about it

    3. just another queer reader*

      I had a hard time with this too (and still do in many ways), although it was extra hard when I was not out at work since most of my weekend involved doing gay things.

      Agreed that food, “just relaxing,” housework, etc can be bland enough to deflect attention.

      1. MM*

        I usually ask, “did you do anything fun this weekend?” rather than “what did you do this weekend?” It give the other person an out if they don’t want to talk about their weekend and keeps things very general while starting conversation.

        1. TootsNYC*

          I like “How was your weekend?” because they can just give an adjective and move on, but if they have something they kind of want to talk about, they have an opening.

        2. DataSci*

          Ugh, I HATE the “anything fun” phrasing! It makes me feel old and boring if the answer is “no, I cleaned the house and took my kid to his soccer game”.

          2. Adultier Adult*

            YES! lol.. I feel like a loser (when in actuality, I quite enjoyed the boring, contentedness of my non-working wife/mom/person weekend.)

            1. Chirpy*

              Yeah, it feels awkward to say “I sat around and did nothing” even when you specifically decided to sit around and do nothing and loved it.

              1. Army of Robots*

                I’ve actually long since decided to own it. “No, I just sat around and read or gamed, it was *great*!”

                1. MigraineMonth*

                  Reading and gaming *is* fun. It doesn’t have to be a vacation to Cancun to qualify, in my view.

          3. Forrest*

            Hm, this may be age-group/workplace dependent but I think, “No, but I ticked a few jobs off my list, which was satisfying!” is a perfectly normal answer!

          4. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

            See when people ask if I did anything fun, I usually go “I did laundry, it was great!” and they laugh and we both move on

          5. Kayem*

            Most of the stuff I do on the weekend is fun for me, but not necessarily someone else. Digging a hole doesn’t seem exciting to most people, but they just don’t know how fun it is for me to discover a thrust fault in the back yard.

          6. Mr. Shark*

            I use the “anything fun” as well, and I don’t have a problem answering if I didn’t do anything fun, whether it’s just did chores or just relaxed. The point is more about avoiding anything unpleasant, really.

        3. Mill Miker*

          I once tried to strike up a conversation this way with a coworker while we waited for someone with keys to let us in. He replied with just “Yup.”

          Not even, “Yup, you?”

          Just a “Yup”, and back to staring at the locked door.

          1. Not A Girl Boss*

            Now I’m dying to know what definitely-so-fun-he-had-to-say-yup-but-definitely-not-work-appropriate thing he did that weekend.

            1. Mill Miker*

              I did get a chance to see his Facebook photo feed at one point (we had just graduated from the same program, so we had some social connections), and based on that: Partying so hard at the clubs that he probably had actually told me everything he could remember.

          2. Vio*

            I often am that coworker (although I’m also the one with the keys so that couldn’t happen quite the same). These days I can usually answer any questions but don’t always have the confidence to give a full answer and follow up questions. With some people it’s rudeness but sometimes it’s anxiety

    5. Critical Rolls*

      It’s really easy to overthink this in any new environment! It’s good to know you can be as vague as you want as long as you’re warm and don’t seem actively evasive. “Just enjoying my downtime, nothing special” is a totally fine answer to “what did you get up to this weekend?” Just mix in the occasional specific — a new restaurant or recipe, a movie you saw, an activity — and you will be just fine.

      As a note: parents talk about their kids a lot in part because that’s what takes up their time. It shouldn’t be construed as disinterest in other topics, it’s just where they live.

      1. Be Gneiss*

        Parents talking about their kids is also a way to address the weekend question in a way that says “I’m a warm and relatable human who does things outside work” without oversharing or getting into personal subjects.

        1. Chirpy*

          But for those who don’t have kids, we risk being seen as not warm/relatable because we can’t say the same. “I hung out with friends” hits differently as an adult, and it often is seen as an opening for parents to ask what you did (and potentially either judge you for it or complain they wish they had the time to do stuff)

          1. Kayem*

            I got lucky and moved closer to my brother and his family, so now I can deflect it by talking about my niece and nephew. That seems to work better than talking about the cats.

          2. Critical Rolls*

            If people don’t see you as warm/relatable because you don’t have the exact same life circumstances as them, and are look for excuses to judge you, the problem isn’t that they’re parents, the problem is they suck. They sucked when they were single, and when they were partnered before they had kids. Please don’t attribute their suckage to parenthood.

    6. CheeryO*

      This is mine too. When I was new at my current job in my mid-20s, I always either clammed up or slightly overshared in social situations because I really couldn’t figure out how to share the right amount of information in a professional way. I now realize that our office culture is a little more stuffy than I would prefer and that it’s nothing personal, but at the time, I was just desperate to make connections and felt like a square peg in a round hole, which wasn’t fun.

    7. Heehee haha hoho hichic*

      I still get this. I’m 33, but I’m single and don’t plan on having kids and me and my co-workers, even ones who are the same age, lead very different lifestyles! I agree with you about food/cooking/restaurants. Movies and sometimes concerts/live music can bridge the lifestyle gap too (depending on the artist!)

    8. Caroline*

      Argh the small talk! I genuinely didn’t understand why people I barely knew wanted to know what I did at the weekend/if I had any plans for the weekend. It took me about a decade to realise people weren’t really interested; it’s a form of relationship building. I cringe now when I remember how I used to answer flatly “No” to both questions!

    9. The Coolest Clown Around*

      I had a SUPER hard time with this starting out. I started at 22 and my next youngest coworker was 35, with most being upper 40s to early 50s. I distinctly remember talking about the weekend with one coworker who’s daughter had just achieved tenure at a prestigious university, and when she asked about my weekend all I could say was “uhh… I bought a new video game?” There are still lots of one-sided talks about home renovations, but now I feel able to talk to people about my own hobbies more.

    10. Kayem*

      All my coworkers are remote, which is a great way to avoid such chitchat, which I really am bad at. I still haven’t mastered the art of just enough information without seeming too distant. So far, all they know is I garden (for food) but they know more about it than I probably should have passed on.

      1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

        My coworkers are all remote now, and we regularly ask each other “How was your weekend?” We can get anything back from “Nice and dull.” to “My snowblower broke and I had to shovel by hand. Now my back is killing me.” to “My inlaws were in town”. (Yes, in our business “nice and dull” weekends are good, because nothing had to be urgently dealt with at work or at home, which is relaxing.)

    11. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

      I’m childfree, and was single until I was in my 50s. I also didn’t do the dating thing or the sports thing. So I couldn’t talk about my nonexistent nuclear family, my nonexistent dating life or my nonexistent sports mania. I eventually had pets and roomies, and rented a house with a lawn, so gardening, food and weather were suitable subjects.

    12. ursula*

      Mine is an extension of this: I didn’t realize that (depending on your particular workplace culture, etc etc) the majority of people weren’t really interested in making friends and weren’t evaluating you on the same “who is chill and fun to be around” criteria that your classmates in college might have used. It’s fundamentally different than meeting new people in the context of university or summer jobs or whatever. I’m going to stop writing this comment now because the horrible memories of mistakes I made in my first years are………… shudder

    13. Jonquil*

      Haha, when I was younger I used to think “all anyone does is talk about their renovations/home DIY projects” but now I’m old and have a mortgage, I totally get it. Firstly, home maintenance is a big part of your life now. Second, it’s a nice neutral topic and it provides more avenues of discussion than the weather but less controversy than parenting.

  7. ilyasaurus*

    Honorifics! I used ma’am/sir in my first few jobs. Said ma’ams and sirs were definitely weirded out. Now I only use them jokingly.

    1. Too old*

      My bosses are younger than me but if they tell me something to do I still say yes sir or yes ma’am

    2. Peach*

      Same! I was raised/went to college in the south. Then I started a job up north. My first day I said “yes sir” to my supervisor all day in training and he eventually asked if I was former military. Once I explained the cultural difference he was like “lol yeah don’t call me sir”

      1. belle*

        I got asked that too. “No sir, my parents just taught me manners.” (No of course I didn’t say that)

        1. NotAnotherManager!*

          Same! It is so weird to me that people think sir/ma’am are rude or insulting. It was non-negotiable when I as a kid, especially with the older generations. (I also grew up in an area with a substantial military population, so I got Southern upbringing AND military. One of my friends used to jokingly say to his dad, “Yes, sir, Colonel, sir!”) Fortunately, I only got as far as DC where it’s less unusual than up north.

      2. Chilipepper Attitude*

        I remember the first time someone ma’am’ed me. Where I grew up, they were basically calling me old but politely.

        I grew up in new england and sir and ma’am don’t sound polite to me at all. They sound military and hierarchical and vaguely controlling (like the person saying that was in a controlling situation)

        1. tamarack etc.*

          ROTFL, this reminds me of the first time someone ma’am’d me. I was still a student in Germany, early 20s. I had saved money for a laptop. At the time, laptops in the US cost about half what they cost in Germany, and there were US companies advertising in German computer magazines. I had a VISA card, am American friend who would travel to my town soon, and a discount card for international phone calls, so the plan was to call the US computer retailer, pay over the phone, have the laptop shipped to my friend and brought to me that way. That’s what I / we did, no hitch. BUT – the company was in Alabama, and it was THE WEIRDEST THING to be ma’am’d by the call center / phone sales person.

          1. Eff Walsingham*

            Ontario, Canada. The first time I was “ma’am’ed” I was 12. I was in the public library, and a little boy who couldn’t find the clock asked me what time it was. I thought he was very sweet. That’s why I was confused as an adult in another province, when I encountered someone who said it made them feel old. It seems to be a progressive attitude shift, but still a regional thing as well. I’ll have to pay close attention to expected forms of address once we move again, especially if I’m working with the public.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          Also grew up in New England, I was super weirded out when my martial arts teacher told me to call him “sir”. My only association with “sir” was to refer to a military commanding officer, which was more martial than I was looking for.

    3. AGD*

      Ugh, me too. I grew up outside the U.S. and didn’t want to aim too low. Fortunately, my supervisors probably thought it was adorable.

    4. Jack Straw from Wichita*

      Another thing that should go by the wayside, not just because f it’s formality, but because it assumes gender, too.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, here isn’t a widely accepted gender-neutral version “sir/ma’am”. That’s why I’ve been working on dropping them from my vocabulary.

    5. tamarack etc.*

      We have a good number of students from military families, and I am always taken aback when I get ma’am’d by them. TBH though the use of this address often goes hand-in-hand with an attitude to get done what needs to get done, which isn’t exactly a bad thing. (Especially once they’ve unwound a little about deference and engaged their reasoning skills.)

    6. Auk*

      I work in a military adjacent organisation and I’m still getting used to the fact that it’s very much the norm for my colleagues, uniformed or otherwise to sir/ma’am each other, or address people using their rank. At first the whole thing felt completely alien to me (my background was very third sector/ informal).

    7. Chemical Engineer Noob*

      I work in an American branch of Japanese company (automotive manufacturing), so I had to get used to using and hearing Japanese honorifics. Answering to “[my name]-san” took a bit of getting used to, but the harder part was remembering to refer to my Japanese coworkers the same way. It turns out that referring to them with no honorific is quite rude!

    8. cam*

      I interviewed someone at a startup the other day for an article. I’m in my late 40s and was horrified to be called Maam all the way through the call.

  8. Tanja*

    I thought it was okay to use my phone in the bathroom while I was on break. It just looked like I was on my phone in the bathroom while I was supposed to be working. I was too embarrassed to explain myself when I was told not to do that.

    1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      How would anyone even know? Unless you mean you were having spoken phone conversations on the phone in a shared bathroom, in which case, yeah. That bothers a lot of people.

      1. Tanja*

        It was the time before touchscreens. They could hear me typing. I was playing games just to have a few minutes to de-stress before interacting with people again.

        1. Fishsticks*

          Gotta tell you, I cannot imagine standing in a bathroom making a point of listening to someone being on their phone. Whoever decided to call you out on that definitely was micromanaging, especially if you were on break.

          1. Samwise*

            More likely someone was in another stall and heard it. I can see how that could be off putting, and some folks might feel weird about peeing while someone else was on their phone.

            Not a big no-no, but if I were doing something non-bathroom related in the bathroom and someone told me it was off-putting, I’d stop. Not because what I was doing was wrong, but because it bothered a co-worker.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              A phone conversation, maybe. I assume everyone looks at/plays with their phone while they’re using the bathroom.

            2. Fishsticks*

              I mean, if someone is in a stall next to me and they’re on their phone, that’s normal bathroom behavior. As long as it’s not like a long conversation, I wouldn’t even notice. Even if it was, maybe there’s a reason?

              I worked in a place where we had to have a talk about it, but in our case we had exactly two single-stall bathrooms, one for customer use (retail environment with a target demographic that skewed older and very female), and one in the warehouse for all thirteen employees to use. We had someone using it for phone calls that meant a LOT of time it was unavailable. The person was just told to take their phone calls outside.

          2. rayray*

            I agree. I might notice, but it’s absolutely none of my business. I only find it odd at my current workplace because there are many break areas and places to sit that are far more sanitary than the bathroom. I remember when I was younger and worked at a call center, there was almost nowhere to go for a breather, phone call, etc so it made more sense to use the bathroom there for that purpose.

    2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      That’s a workplace specific thing. Who the hell is watching people in the bathroom? I am not criticizing you for doing it, or for thinking this is how it’s done.
      It may well be, but it is intrusive and gross.

      1. Tanja*

        My first job, very shy and easily intimidated. Retail job, 2 bathrooms for around 15 employees, manager waiting outside the stall and hearing the taps. I probably also had my phone in my hand ready to put it in my bag (sink inside the stall.)
        “Were you on your phone?!”
        “Ehh-yes.?”
        “Don’t!”

        1. Butterfly Counter*

          Unless being on your phone meant you were taking longer than normal on the toilet with people waiting in line, it was you manager who was out of line, not you.

      2. Excel-sior*

        I’ve always kept an eye out for anyone who doesn’t wash their hands in there, because those people need to be avoided. But anything else is too much.

      3. Oxford Comma*

        I worked at a job where the bathrooms had stalls and I heard all kinds of conversations from the other stalls without meaning to listen.

    3. Essentially Cheesy*

      If someone (anyone) is monitoring you that closely .. that would be a big red flag for me.

      I mean, I am not obvious about my phone usage in the bathroom, but I’m really there to use the facilities anyway and am only in there for a few minutes. Extended breaks would garner attention, of course.

    4. OhNo*

      Every place I’ve worked, being on your phone in the bathroom (to play games, not to have long conversations, obviously) is 100% okay. I think you just had a very weird manager.

      1. Mid*

        Yeah, my morning bathroom break is when I do my Wordle, and sometimes respond to personal emails. It’s fine to be on your phone in the bathroom as long as it’s not 1. Talking on the phone 2. Taking pictures 3. Excessively long (barring medical reasons, 15 min is a good maximum time)

        1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          Yeah, I learned to have my phone on silent in the bathroom, because tapping on the keys with sound feedback was echoing…

    5. Alice*

      We had an issue with a woman who would have video calls, on speaker, in the restroom. The weirdest part was that she had an office all to herself…

  9. Marie*

    Co-workers exist in a different kind of relationship space than your friends, even if you feel very close to them and get on well.

    It’s taken me many many many years to realize that co-workers are NOT the same thing as, or a substitute for friends. So even though I might be close to some co-workers, at the end of the day the only thing we initially have in common is that we work together. Now, I have absolutely had co-workers turn into dear friends that I’ve kept in touch with after not working together anymore, but those are the exceptions.

    2. irene adler*

      Yes- and to that end, the topics of conversation might need to be less personal than with friends. It is still the workplace.

      I’ve had coworkers come crying to me about their love life or family issues, or to fix things (car won’t run), need a place to stay, ask for rent money, don’t know how to manage their private affairs and want me to step in. NO! That’s not how the coworker relationship works.

    3. Antilles*

      Along these lines:
      A lot of your work friends will fade out when you no longer work together. Even if you’re close now, it’s much harder to maintain those friendships when you don’t have that shared connection and it requires much more effort to meet up…and the vast majority of them will just sort of slowly wither over time.

      1. Marie*

        YES! And that stings! I have been super duper close (in a work sense) with some of my co-workers and then didn’t hear a peep from them the instant I left the job, and in some ways that hurts just as much as losing a friendship.

      2. Keyboard Cowboy*

        Yes. This is something I didn’t really expect, and actually something many of my colleagues are about to learn for the first time with the tech layoffs. I organize a common-interest social group at work, and people are wondering whether we should start including our recently laid off colleagues, but six months from now I almost guarantee those same laid off colleagues will have zero interest in participating in that social group anymore. Once in a while you find someone you want to stay friends with, but it’s the exception, not the rule.

    4. Lacey*

      Yes. I know a lot of younger people who are devastated when their work friends turn out to only be work friends. They think those people were being “fake” to them.

      Though, I’m not sure if this is the kind of thing a manager would address with a young hire.

      1. unlucky shopper*

        Oof, this happened to me. Student worker thought we were friends (I was neutrally friendly) and then was Hurt And Betrayed when I had to gently correct their work.

    5. NewJobNewGal*

      This was hard to understand because TV. The plot for most sitcoms is a workplace where everyone hangs out before work, during lunch, during breaks, and after work. They even go on vacations together!

      2. TechWorker*

        I mean to be fair I have been on vacations with colleagues (who are also friends). It’s not impossible. (Though I agree – sensible to have some amount of distance with anyone you are working together closely with). I also met my partner of 7 years through work so probably not the best example :)

    6. NeedRain47*

      Conversely, I got scolded during my annual review for not being friends with my coworkers. One of whom was hostile to me to the point that she wouldn’t even say hello. It’s not a job requirement to be bffs.

      1. Julia*

        Someone once said you need to be friendly with coworkers not friends which has always stayed with me.

    7. Chidi has a stomach ache*

      Cosigned. One of my supervisors in the position I’m leaving has complained to me (more than once!) that she doesn’t feel like she knows me very well — to which I would like to reply, “yes, that’s intentional.” I’ve also primarily worked in small private schools, which really lean on the “we’re a community” thing for employees. It’s a retention tactic when they know they can’t meet the same salary/benefits as public schools.

    8. AY*

      Yes, and where you would follow up with/offer support to a friend, you would not do the same with a friendly coworker. If I knew a friend was having health issues, I’d see if they wanted to talk about it, if they needed help at home, etc. With a friendly coworker, I would respect their privacy and only follow up with a discussion of handling work responsibilities.

    9. Princess Peach*

      Ooh yes, absolutely this. Coworkers are not friends! They might be work buddies, and you might enjoy working with them, but they are not friends. Both of you are drawing your paycheck from the same place, and the money is a bigger priority than interpersonal relationships.

      You have no obligation to share details about your life, and you definitely shouldn’t casually discuss things like job searching if you don’t want that information making its way up the chain.

    10. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, we’re coaching a younger friend on this right now. She’s basically fine but there have been some hiccups where she took things too personally or responded to something in a way that was a bit too informal. Fortunately, she also has a good office mentor.

    11. StressedButOkay*

      Yes, yes, YES. I so wish someone had told me this – I not only was too needy in my first few roles (lol) but also then got very hurt emotionally too. I slowly saw how toxic this can become – not always but where I was, yes – and finally drew that line in the sand.

    12. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      THIS THIS THIS. It didn’t help that the culture in my home country, where I’d worked at my first job out of college, was different. People would work at the same place, on the same team, for their entire careers, so of course they’d be friends. At my first job, everyone was ten years older than me and had started there at the same time right after college, so by the time I joined them ten years later, they were all friends, supported each other, knew each other’s families etc (God, I miss that place sometimes.) The office politics, the backstabbing, the knowledge that the default setting with any new coworkers is not “buddies”, but “assume they will throw you under the bus the first chance they get unless proven otherwise”, as well as the fact that we are only working together for a short time and then one or both of us will move on and I’ll never see this coworker again; were all things I had to learn the hard way in my first US job. The one person at my first job that acted friendly and offered a lot of workplace advice, turned out to have a knack for sleeping with his subordinates. (I spent a couple of years turning down his advances, eventually he got together with another woman on my team and left me alone – but also tried to take an exciting project from me and give it to her.) The teammate that acted as my mentor at the same job, turned out to be spreading horrible rumors about me behind my back! Both should’ve been on a low-information diet from day one, but I did not know any better.

      With that said, working together can help form great bonds and I too have dear friends that I met through working together – but we bonded after years of working as a team in stressful conditions, not the other way around when you befriend each other after the first week or the first happy hour on the new job.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        I don’t think that level of backstabbing is very common, though. I’ve had very few actually contentious work relationships, and many more where we are, more or less, ships in the night. Some people suck, and some managers/management structures are not good at weeding out employees that that suck, and that kind of thing can multiply. But it’s not normal, and quite frankly I would bail on a job with coworkers like that, unless I had a *very* compelling reason not to.

    13. Hehe haha heehee hoho hichic*

      Yes! I have had plenty of co-workers that I got along with incredibly well over the years, but I literally only have one close friend who I met through work. After 9+ years in the workforce.

    14. Pink Candyfloss*

      +1. Too many people think of work friends as equivalent to non-work friends and this is just not the case, as they discover too late when the person leaves for another job, or becomes promoted away, or (god forbid) becomes their boss.

      1. 1LFTW*

        or (god forbid) becomes their boss.

        YES. Or vice versa, and the newbie manager wonders why their “friends” are suddenly a little more distant than before.

    15. irritable vowel*

      Yup. At one of my earlier jobs, several of my coworkers there became some of my closest friends. It turned super-awkward on a couple of occasions when work stuff got problematic (it was a dysfunctional place with a lot of drama and manipulative leadership). When I left that job, I resolved to keep my personal life and work life separate from then on. I’ve been *friendly* with people at subsequent jobs, but they are not friends that I spend time with outside of work.

    16. Nom*

      This is important! I moved to a new city for my first office job so most of the people I knew in the city were for work. This made it really difficult emotionally when I was laid off – although losing that job was definitely a hidden blessing, I also lost my entire social circle. I am still in touch with many of them, but we definitely aren’t still getting drinks once a week.

    17. Not my Monkeys*

      I have made some really close friends at work but I have been very selective and it has taken longer than it would have outside of work. I moved six hours away to take the job seven years ago and I didn’t have any friends in my new town, so I was more open to it. Interestingly, my friends from work are usually not people that I work very closely with. They are people I would have been friends with anyway, if I had met them somewhere else. Maybe the norm is don’t assume friendly co-workers are your friends and don’t take it personally if your co-workers don’t want to socialize with you outside of work.

    18. SleepyHollowGirl*

      Yes. Even people you eat lunch with every day, and get along with very well are not your friends. Once you don’t work together, you may not see them at all.

      The time you will talk to them again is when when one of you is looking for a new job.

  10. Justin*

    It’s sort of a cop out but the fact that cultures vary so much from job to job. And that every time you change you need to learn a new one.

    Also that a lot of “norms” are just (insert identity)ism.

    1. OhNo*

      That second part – honestly, 100%. It’s always interesting talking to my boss, because half the things she insists are “standard professionalism” are just classism wearing a work-appropriate hat.

    2. Dark Macadamia*

      Yes! At my first job the dress code was fairly conservative – you could only wear jeans on Fridays and only if you wore them with a spirit shirt, there were lengthy yearly debates about whether capris should be allowed, tattoos had to be covered, etc. Where I am now there is literally NO dress code and I feel overdressed when I wear, like, plain black pants. Both public secondary schools, but in different states.

      1. Kayem*

        This definitely! Dress codes can vary so much by employer, industry/field, and region. Even a specific category, like professional clothing can be wildly different. My partner has worked the same academic professional position for decades and the dress codes for men’s professional has been everything from “just no shorts or tshirts” to “khakis and a blazer” to full on suit and tie. They said the hardest dress code to follow was the least restrictive. Even though everyone else came to work in jeans, partner just couldn’t dress down that far. In that particular area, a pair of dark jeans and a polo shirt was considered very professional dress, so partner got a lot of teasing for “dressing up” in khakis.

  11. MuseumChick*

    This isn’t exactly what this question is getting at, but I remember starting out that I had ZERO clue what HR did when I should and should not go to them etc. I also wish someone had taught me phone educate when I was starting out. I grew up in the age to caller ID and texting so being *on the phone* felt so strange to me, and I’d always get tongue-tied. Finally, and this might be more nuanced than you are looking for but, to put it very bluntly, not to fully trust anyone until you have been in the office for a while and know the lay of the land. Be professional and friendly but don’t air as much as the normal complaints one has at any job with anyone until you know who will spread your business and who will not.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      My mom started her career as a secretary back when that was like being an EA. I am so grateful that she taught us how to answer a phone professionally. And made us practice when people called our house (back in the days of landlines).

      We also learned how to politely shut down pushy callers.

      1. President Porpoise*

        Share your pushy caller wisdom? And any wisdom for backing out of a conversation that just won’t end, actually.

        1. Clisby*

          I wouldn’t advise using this in a workplace, but my 20-year-old son got so sick of picking up our landline and hearing yet another telemarketer that he started opening the conversation not with “Hello” but with “This better be good.” (He knows not to do this with his cell, unless he can tell it’s one of his friends calling.)

        2. Seven If You Count Bad John*

          “Well, apart from that spreadsheet issue, is there anything else I can help you with?…Great, always a pleasure, thanks so much for calling TTYL”

        3. Charlotte Lucas*

          It was literally, “(Mom’s name or The lady of the house, back when people used that term) is not available. May I take a message?” Repeat ad nauseam. No telemarketer can beat a stubborn 9YO with time on their hands.

        4. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

          If it’s a telemarketer, be very direct- “We’re not interested in X, have a great day, good-bye.” And then just hang up. Don’t be overtly rude (tell them off, cuss, etc) but also don’t engage in any counter arguments that they have. While it feels rude, it’s better in the long run. Also, if your company has an auto-attendant, that cuts down on A LOT of spam. Not all, mind you, but a lot.

          If it’s a customer or someone you need to be polite to in order to retain their business, a sudden Zoom call or caller ID issue will work. “Oh, I need to catch this incoming call- can I circle back with you on this?” or “Oh, I have this Zoom call starting. Could you email me those questions and I’ll get back to you after it’s over?”

          If it’s someone who has decided that no, really, they don’t want to leave a voicemail for the person they just called who wasn’t at their desk (and/or is ignoring their phone) and you’re the next person on the auto-attendant, play dumb. “Oh, Fergus isn’t at his desk right now. Do you want to leave him a voice mail? Or email him? Or I can take a message?” Only if you’re able to take a message. Otherwise, don’t offer- only give the voice mail or emails as options.

          1. tamarack etc.*

            I’ve certainly used “I’m sorry, but to set up a phone call with the Director of Professional Services/Managing Director [my boss/grandboss] the best is to email them directly. I can certainly pass on a message telling them you called, if you would just spell out your name, company and contact details to me” with pushy callers who wanted to sell / pitch us something and called the tech support phone line. (I was the lead for that team, so weird calls to that line often ended up with me.) Obviously these people didn’t want me to know who they represented, so they mumbled something about trying what I suggested and went their merry way.

        5. Cedarthea*

          “I appreciate this conversation, but I need to end this call because of another commitment (other relevant term here)”

          “Thank you for your time/information/conversation, I do need to get to a meeting/another call, so I will have to go now. I thank you and appreciate your time on this”.

          For telemarketers.

          “I appreciate your call, however I don’t require this service. Thank you” and then hang up (but not angrily).

          Its all about being clear in that you are ending the call, that it’s not open for negotiation and then adding whatever politeness you need to retain the relationship, or not.

          I had a call like this yesterday, and I did have to end the call to make another obligation, and I said to the person “I do need to tell you that I have a meeting in 5 minutes and I need to finish up our call. I appreciate your time, and will XYZ (I recapped our convo and made the action items clear).” the other person went, “oh sounds good, thanks for that” and we said our goodbyes.

          With people higher up in the org I am more deferential, in that I might say “I am so sorry, but I do have XYZ in a few moments, so I need to get ready for that” while when I am working down the org chart, it is more “I need to do XYZ so let’s get this finished up”.

          I hope that was helpful, because I need to wrap this up and get back to my actual work for the day.

        6. coffee*

          Pushy caller – I’ve found a comfortable way of ending those phone calls is to say something along the lines of “No thank you, best of luck with your next call/I’m not interested/I have to go, goodbye” and hanging up. I use the same kind of “friendly thanks” tone that I use if e.g. I’ve just bought something at a shop and they’ve handed me my shopping bag, and the transaction has come to a close. If the pushy caller is doing the thing where they don’t let you get a word in edgewise, I just talk over them and then hang up.

          In-person conversation – say you are trapped in a conversation about the other person’s llama grooming routine. Wait until it is your conversational turn, contribute to the conversation, and then signal that you’re leaving.
          “Oh yeah, it is so tough to get the mud out from the wool just over the hooves. No wonder it took you five minutes! Anyway, been great to chat to you but I have to get back to it. Talk to you again later.”
          If the other person is monologuing then you can just politely interrupt (“oh look at the time”), do the “nice to chat, goodbye” spiel and leave.

      2. Middle of HR*

        My mom did this as well! I thought she was being annoying and old fashioned, but lo and behold, my first office job was answering phones so this was helpful.

    2. doreen*

      Definitely don’t fully trust anyone right away – I knew a group of new employees who trusted a group of more seasoned employees and signed a petition without reading it. They later said they were told the petition was about one thing ( let’s say vermin ) and only found out it was about something else ( let’s say changing the dress code to allow non-leather shoes) after things blew up. They did not get fired or even disciplined – but they did get a reputation for being gullible that took a long time to shake.

      1. Ama*

        I find new hires who have less work experience sometimes assume if a senior colleague is asking them to do something it must be something they are supposed to do. If you have either particular colleagues like this or there’s a task that people regularly *think* your department does but you don’t it is helpful to give a proactive “heads up, sometimes people think our department handles X work but we actually don’t do that, if someone asks you to do that, redirect them to Jane’s team — and if they push back send them to me and I’ll explain.”

        1. M*

          I’m a legal admin assistant, and I’ve told junior lawyers that senior lawyers don’t always know if their request can be done the way they want.

          Once I typed up a form the way the lawyer requested, to show her why her request was impossible.

          1. HRAnon*

            M, I love this! I find people of all ages (i.e. all number of years of experience in an office) who still follow requests like orders, without ever stopping to mention to the person that it really can’t or shouldn’t be done that way. You are doing a great service to your colleagues!

    4. KC*

      Seconding the “don’t trust anyone” thing!!! Don’t vent to people until you can tell if they’re the gossipy type or not (and do not vent to them if they’re gossipy!); don’t tell people things that are personal until you’ve known them for a while; etc., etc. I was burned a few times very early in my career and I’m much more reserved about things now. I’ve figured out who I can talk to about different sensitive subjects, but you really do have to be careful about your words and actions at work.

      It sucks to feel like you have to play games when you’re socializing with coworkers, but that’s just a part of adjusting to the professional/corporate world! (It never stops feeling weird, even if you get good at playing.)

      1. Secret Agent*

        Yes, it NEVER stops being weird! I always feel as if I’m a cunning, machievellian, super inhibited, secret agent in my work life, when actually I’m just ensuring my basic survival. It is tiring!

      2. Mr. Lastname*

        And this flies in the face of this “I’m going to be 100% authentic ME at work and there’s nothing you can do about it” attitude I see younger folks discuss all the time. It’s just not practical or wise to share so much about yourself to people you don’t even know and who could submarine your career if they felt like it.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Though part of the “bring your whole self to work” movement is specifically opening up space for marginalized identities at work. It can be very stressful, for example, to always avoid pronouns when talking about your partner or mentioning celebrations for non-Christian holidays.

          So yes, there is risk when sharing about a non-mainstream identity, but there’s also a cost to keeping it under wraps.

    5. E*

      No one told me that HR is there to protect the company, not me as the employee. It took way too long to learn that on my own.

      1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

        Ditto. I often trusted HR too much, and got burned by it. It didn’t help that some of the HR people I dealt with were two-faced slime.

    6. Malarkey01*

      I think the HR one is really important. They are not an arbitrator of “fairness” (not saying they aren’t fair just that their job is not to mediate whether someone was mean to you and not the teacher at recess that you go to report someone not playing nice).

    7. WheresMyPen*

      I was in the office for six months before covid and it was my first office job, and I HATED having to answer my desk phone. It wasn’t often I got calls but occasionally reception would put someone through to me who had a query and I usually didn’t know the answer or who was calling as I was so new. We also had to cover reception one lunchtime per week and again, I never had any clue how to respond to queries so I would just take a message and leave it for the receptionist to deal with XD

  12. Melissa*

    This is so embarrassing, but when I was in my early 20s I had a job in an office on a college campus. I would kick off my shoes and walk around barefoot. Somebody had to tell me that in order to be professional, I would have to keep my shoes on.

    1. LiberryPie*

      My sister worked for our father for about a year. He was the president of a small tech-related company. She reported to us that he walked around in socks! :) But it’s definitely not the norm.

      1. Ranon*

        My boss at the first job I had in my actual field walked around in his socks and a full suit. The rest of us dressed in business casual.

      3. irritable vowel*

        Oh god, there was a guy at a place I worked who walked around in his socks all day, including into the men’s room. Just, no.

    2. CSRoadWarrior*

      Sounds like it was just a learning curve and not really a big deal. You were only starting out. Nothing to be embarrassed about.

    3. Em from CT*

      I had a supervisor once–or, rather, my boss’s boss, who was the head of the entire department–who’d do this! An elegant, no-nonsense, immensely competent woman in her 50s. Of course, she could get away with it, at her level. The rest of us? Not so much.

      1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        After watching the executive director of our non-profit walk around the entire building in literally her pantyhose, I started wearing clogs to work and taking my shoes off under my desk and walking around my particular office in my socks. If I were anywhere else in the building, I put the clogs back on- but in my own workspace? Socks only. No one ever said boo about it.

        1. Sparkle llama*

          My grand boss (male) often walks around in socks in the afternoon within our office area (around 15 people) and I have never had an issue with it. I assume his feet get sore from a pair of dress shoes. I would never walk around the building in my socks but if I had worn uncomfortable shoes for a fancy meeting I would feel fine ditching them for socks part of the day and don’t think my coworkers would think anything of it. As long as my socks were matching and in good condition

    4. President Porpoise*

      I would give shoulder massages to coworkers (I’m female and so were they – just older with sore backs).

      Then we had a pair of interns who were really, really good friends outside the office – not dating or anything, and these guys would give each other really extensive back massages. at work. In an office. It was uncomfortable, and I learned a lesson about personal boundaries.

      Now I cringe at my past self. I did so many stupid things.

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        I’m so glad I witnessed such a thing in High School when a woman who was just a little older than us got a job there as an aide. We were in the library when she suddenly started rubbing the male librarian’s shoulders in front of us. It was as if I was witnessing a sexual act it was so intimate and odd. Don’t cringe at yourself. I’ve done so many stupid things as well and it’s so nice knowing others have carried some of this crud around as an adult like me.

    5. The Original K.*

      I knew a man who would put his awful, Frito-chips-for-toenails, crusty-heeled bare feet on the table in meetings. A fully grown man with decades in the work force. Somebody more senior finally said “Are you serious?!” to him in a meeting, which got him to stop.

    6. Data Slicentist*

      I would take my shoes off every day when I first started, but I did have a very tall cubicle that also went all the way to the floor. I still don’t think it was great to do, but I hadn’t yet found the right socks to keep my feet unsweaty in shoes all day. I wonder if people noticed.

      1. tamarack etc.*

        It’s all about local norms. Taking your shoes (winter boots right now) off is fine in our office, and so is bringing in house slippers to wear in the office if you want to walk around sans outside shoes.

    7. Anja*

      As someone who used to work in Big 4 accounting and walked around my (admittedly small town, not big city) office – in my defense, only in the back, never past client facing areas – in socks…I once asked the managing partner “…do I have to wear shoes?” and he responded with “I don’t care if you wear shoes.” So it can be office specific.

      Now in a different job I have very specific rules for myself. I never wear shoes in my cubicle – I’ll be full barefoot in summer, or in socks. I will go down my cubicle row in socks to talk to a colleague (but not bare feet). And I won’t go into the main hall past our little cubicle group without shoes.

      I operate on the idea that not wearing shoes isn’t super professional clothing, but that I’m able to have different levels of professionality of dress depending on space and people involved. This is the same reason why during covid most of my direct colleagues I work with a lot got to see my collection of free volunteer t-shirts but I always had a fancy shirt hung on the doorknob of my home office in case I got pulled into a meeting with people I knew less.

      1. Relentlessly Socratic*

        When I taught summer classes, I would frequently kick off my shoes.

        I’d still do it today, TBH.

      2. Frieda*

        Yep, I teach barefoot sometimes (ONLY with sandal-appropriate feet.) Sometimes I teach outdoors if it’s nice enough. I have gotten scolded by another faculty member for being barefoot in the hallway outside my office.

        I told her to get ready to be shocked, but that I also go barefoot … outside sometimes.

    9. Stanley Cupcakes*

      I had an internship in a foreign parliament in a country where it rains a lot; I turned nineteen my first day on the job. One very wet day, after my two-mile walking commute, I took my shoes off at my desk, put them on the vent to dry, and walked through the hallways of the parliament in (still kind of damp!) stockings, running into lawmakers and one political figure who’s a household name. Ugh, get it together, young me.

      Also I learned it’s okay to commute in one pair of shoes and change into another when you get there. I have another 2+ mile walking commute now, but with happier feet.

      1. Anja*

        As someone who lives in a city that has snow on the ground six to seven months of the year I definitely embrace the changing shoes lifestyle. Boots to/from work and a variety of indoor shoes at my desk.

        When everyone got send to work from home during covid and started to realize it was going to be a while you had a lot of people pop by the office at one point to take home a box of shoes.

        1. Forrest*

          I cycled to work so I would keep a couple of pairs of heel or smart loafers under my desk. It was only when I left the job that I realised the collection had grown to about eight pairs, oops.

        2. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          I sometimes has a pair of slipper mocs under my desk for days when my regular shoes were uncomfortable. They were just right for “indoor shoes”.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        It rains a lot where I am. I’ve taken wet shoes off while I’m at my desk, but I put them back on if I’m actually going anywhere. And, yes, I’ve learned to bring spare shoes.

    10. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      I mean, it’s a college campus… you get a pass from me on this one.

      I worked with a guy who wore sandals to work all year long, and then while working, would kick them off and put his bare feet up on his desk, facing the aisle. We sat in the same aisle and I had to walk past him to get to my own desk. The image still haunts me. At least his feet did not smell (that I know of).

      1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        Oh and how did I manage to forget the guy who’d take his shoes off in meetings and scratch them with a plastic fork? He also had a charming habit of sticking his hand WAY down his pants and scratching himself there when talking to you. Then he’d walk over to the communal kitchen and help himself to the plastic utensils from the shared drawer. I developed a habit of packing my own silverware with my work lunches because of this guy. I also had a woman teammate who would do the same thing; pick her butt while talking to you, then take her hand out of her pants to show you something on your screen or to type on your keyboard. Amazingly all three people worked at the same company (though not all at the same time), it’s true what they say about work culture!

    11. Jack Straw from Wichita*

      Adding to this not to sit on desks. As a teacher, I was constantly sitting or leaning against my desk–which was 100% fine in that job. Moving to an office job, I realized that was not professional or accepted.

      1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        I had my desk sat on by at least one coworker. She’d come in with a question and sit on my desk next to my keyboard and just keep talking. It used to squick me out, I eat at my desk and didn’t want or like someone’s pants, that had been in contact with workplace toilets and who knows what else, placed where I have my food. Neither did I like coworker crotch at almost my eye level. Oddly, I now think that, had this coworker been a cat, I’d have been okay with her sitting there. Double standards, I know!

    12. Delta Delta*

      I worked with a guy who often walked around the common office areas barefoot. Then he stepped on a staple. It was roundly considered to be his own darn fault.

    13. What Angelica Said*

      I worked in the Communications office of a university and somehow decided that stuffed animal slippers were the thing to wear. Into the PRESIDENT’S OFFICE. No one ever told me not to, which is very strange in retrospect.

    14. run mad; don't faint*

      I mentioned this elsewhere, but in my first office job, I would go to meetings and take my shoes off because my feet were hot. These were meetings with the COO, and when he implied or suggested I put them back on, I ignored him. Very embarrassing in retrospect.

    15. GreyNerdShark*

      I have worked at 2 universities in their computer science departments.

      At the first one you could tell the staff from the students because the staff wore shoes.
      At the second one you could tell the staff from the students because the students wore shoes!

  13. DisneyChannelThis*

    Asking vs informing for using PTO for sick leave. Giving too much details when calling out sick, as a new to workplace grad I was used to professors being suspicious and wanting 10,000 details. Boss had to take me aside and tell me he didn’t care what my temperature was, just say you are sick.

    1. Lexi Vipond*

      I work with students, and I still don’t want to know their exact temperature, which parts of their body things came out of, or what medicine they took. Just tell me you were too ill to come!

      1. Butterfly Counter*

        Oh my goodness, yes.

        Also, unless it’s a test day, I don’t care if you’re absent. You don’t have to tell me about this appointment or that flat tire. I have almost 200 students. I won’t remember anyway and absences don’t count against you. I’d almost prefer you NOT email as it’s just one more thing in my inbox that I have to deal with.

        1. Hehe haha heehee hoho hichic*

          This is a major learning curve for undergrad students because high schoolers are generally forced to abide by pretty strict and arbitrary rules (at least, they did at my high school). When I got to university it was a bit of an adjustment to be able to simply get up and leave when I had to use the washroom or notify a prof of my absence to class with no details apart from “I’m sick”. So I completely understand why new university students give excessive detail when explaining an absence or a late assignment.

      2. Robecita*

        Agree! I’m a professor and have no need to hear about the timing, number, or contents of vomiting episodes. High level of detail does not actually make me more inclined to believe that a student is really sick!

    2. Lacey*

      Yes! My first office job had a super suspicious boss and you had to justify every absence with tons of details. I took that with me to my next job and it took a long time for me to realize that I honestly could just say I was sick.

      Though even then, I did have one pushy office manager who I had to tell, “I can’t make it to my car without throwing up – much less the office”

      1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

        I still remember the one job where I was supposed to do a presentation, but was sicker than a dog. I called in from a parking lot – I was literally puking into a cup in my spouse’s car. Yes, I told them I was throwing up. I went home and went to bed.

        Ordinarily I don’t get into details.

        Now, I just have to tell people if I’m unable to work, eg a migraine.

    3. ZugTheMegasaurus*

      The one illness I usually specify is a migraine, just because a lot of people understand that means it comes on fast (often in the middle of the day) and I’m not going to be able to work through it, and that I’ll probably be (mostly) fine tomorrow.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        Ironically, none of those are true for my migraines: mine ramp up slowly, I can usually work through them, and they always last several days in a row. I’ve started calling them just “headaches” so people don’t whisper around me (which isn’t necessary, since mine aren’t sound-sensitive).

        1. ZugTheMegasaurus*

          Oof, that still sounds awful! As I’ve gotten older (I’ve had chronic migraine for like 20 years now) I’ve started getting some that are very different and sound more like yours (mostly visual aura with the worst symptom being an intense smell of burning popcorn rather than blinding pain) but unfortunately those are only maybe once every 5 or 6 times.

    4. Anon cause my family might read this*

      I totally did inform my boss that I’d be out for my young son’s medically required circumcision.

      He sent an email to the team saying I’d be out because my son was having a “minor medical procedure” which was what I should’ve said to begin with *facepalm*

    5. Bird Lady*

      I had just the opposite situation once. When I worked retail, I called off sick once. It meant the opening manager could not leave until we could find another manager to cover my shift, and if no one could, he’d have to stay open to close. I called off and said that I was too sick to work or drive, and there was no way I could make it there.

      Since I had never called off before, I didn’t think a vague reason would be a problem. If someone who never misses a shift calls off, I would usually took that as a legitimate sick day.

      The opening manager, who happened to be my boss, did not take it that way. He called and demanded I come to work. I was on my way to ER and told him so.

      The diagnosis was a large kidney stone that got caught in my urethra. And as I was having a machine hit me with sonic waves to break the stone up so I could safely pass it, he continued to call demanding updates and when I was going to return to work. My doctors did not want me standing and doing physical labor for a day or so given the damage the stone did.

      So at my next job, I overshared all the details until finally my manager said, “For the love of God, I do not need to know every detail!”

      1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

        That opening manager was an asshole. Being on your way to ER should have been quite enough. Demanding updates while you’re in ER? I’d probably be offering my resignation unless he stopped. (I get very blunt, short and growl-y when I’m in pain. People who push it find out just how irate I can get.)

        1. NotRealAnonforThis*

          To be honest, I’d have probably handed the closest medical professional my phone and an exasperated “could you tell my boss to eff off, medically?”

    6. CRM*

      +1 on giving out too many details when you are sick. I still cringe at the level of detail in the sick-day emails my first boss received…

    7. Jules*

      My first office job was as a law firm receptionist. For some reason, part of that position’s responsibilities was keeping up with PTO time for all of the staff. Legal admins would give me time off requests with all the details, like “I’m going in for cancer treatment that no one knows about.” I finally asked why they were telling me all this personal stuff and apparently the person in that position before me had “required” details. I told them to stop, that I didn’t need to know everything. New office manager came in and took over that task, which was more than fine with me!

    8. Magenta*

      The worst one I had was a recent grad in her first job who gave me paragraphs of excruciating detail about exactly why she was unable to work. Some of it was really personal stuff, so it was both gross and painful to hear and also embarrassing. There are some mental images that I just don’t want but will never leave me!

      My rule is, I need to know you can’t work as soon as is reasonably possible for you to tell me. If you have an idea of how long you expect off then that is a bonus. Other than that I don’t need specifics.

      The caveat is that my employer offers 10 days paid sick without a doctors note and up to 6 months if you have a note. If an employee goes over the 10 days uncertified then HR expect you to be having a conversation about it, partly to check they aren’t taking advantage, but mostly to make sure there isn’t an underlying health issue that needs to be accomodated.

    9. HotSauce*

      I’ve had managers who wanted 1,000 details when I called in until one day I just realized, this is my manager, not my mother. If they want to fire me because I am too sick to work, so be it. From then on whenever I would call in sick, I would just say, “I’m not able to work today or I’m too ill to work today” and that’s it. Even when pressed for details I would gray rock & repeat the phrase over & over in a monotone. They do not have the right to my medical details & I don’t want any chronic conditions being held against me.

  14. TJ*

    One thing for those new to the workforce or just new to your workplace

    What are the office norms?

    Do people eat at their desk, go out for lunch or is there a lunchroom?
    Where are all the facilities located?
    Is it normal for people to check their phones (occasionally) at their desk?

    A quick run through of the basics never hurts

    1. Anonymouse*

      “We have down time here. You will see when you get your own assignments. You can use that time to read, catch up on bills, clip coupons. Be ready to work when the work comes in.”

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      I was going to add a comment if I didn’t see anything: I didn’t know what it was okay to ask about before my first day! now as a hiring manager I try to proactively provide the information, but to anyone new, it’s totally okay to ask the person coordinating your first day logistical basics if they don’t think to offer them. Adding on to the Qs above, I try to provide the info about the following that I’ve asked about in the past:

      Is there a fridge, microwave, etc. for me to plan a lunch?
      Is the office generally a comfortable temp? (I work in a field where this isn’t a given. I keep three levels of cardigans in my office for yearly swings)
      Are headphones allowed? (by policy or norms)
      Is the first day tour going to require closed toe shoe areas? (again, field specific)

      1. Interplanet Janet*

        Oh, also a big one I volunteer: What is OUR interpretation of the dress code? “Business casual” is borderline meaningless on its own. I much prefer to specify something like “Khakis, non-logo tops, and dresses/skirts are all standard”

      2. ferrina*

        Lunch is a BIG one. When I was young and $20 was LOT, I wanted to bring my lunch every day, but didn’t want to embarrass myself with a brown bag. I also had no idea where to eat, how to bill my lunch hour…it was weirdly fraught.

  15. Stevesie*

    Not having to tell the manager when you were taking your lunch/break/bathroom for jobs that don’t require that coverage was a big one.

    8 years in I still don’t understand how informal lunch groups work or how to casually ask to tag along without feeling incredibly self conscious.

    What HR actually does and how to report something to them.

    1. ferrina*

      YES! The lunch constantly baffles me.

      Also not needing coverage is something I’m still grateful for, 10 years later. Not asking permission to use the bathroom is so, so freeing.

    2. FashionablyEvil*

      Lunch is much more informal in an office! Just ask people if they want to join you (“I’m going to go out for tacos at 12:15–would you like to come?” Or invite yourself along, “Oh, are you going to that new sandwich place? Mind if I join you?”

      Inviting yourself along is totally an acceptable thing.

    3. Caroline*

      My first year or so in an office job, I used to tell my colleague I sat next to every time I was going to the bathroom, I was so used to needing to inform coworkers for coverage. So embarrassing.

    4. Kirsten*

      I remember asking my boss daily whether I was okay to go home when my day ended (in my office job). I was so used to my retail job where you needed to make sure there was coverage before leaving!

    5. mimi*

      I had a job in an office where not only did we have assigned lunch times, if you had brought your lunch you were all expected to sit together in the breakroom together. I had an assigned lunch time with my immediate supervisor and her cronies where they would pick apart what I brought for lunch. I only lasted 3 months there for a lot of reasons but that was one of them.

      1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

        Oh, that’s f’ing rude!

        If I had people picking apart my lunch I’d either a) stop eating with them, no matter what the expectation, or b) if they pushed it, find something that would consistently gross them out, even if it wasn’t my actual favorite, and visibly and audibly savor it. I have a championship ring in pettiness, so I would be very petty.

  16. Common Taters on the Ax*

    I can’t think of anything for me, but I have a friend who was surprised that her boss expected her to tell him that she’d rearranged her schedule for the day. She’d worked through lunch so she could take a family member to a doctor’s appointment and he reprimanded her (lightly) when she was gone for the appointment. And then a couple of friends as grad assistants were surprised that in their customer-facing positions, gym shorts were not okay although other shorts were.

    1. Anonymouse*

      We do this in my place a lot, but we have to let our manager know first. It came down too, boss needs to know if you are in the office or not. Fergus needs Liz to do X. Where is she?
      So yeah, I can see friend’s boss’ situation.

    2. amoeba*

      I think that’s super dependent on the field, though. We have flextime and if I told my boss that, he’d be like “…OK, cool, but why are you telling me?”

      1. Common Taters on the Ax*

        Agree. I guess this position was not announced as flextime, though, and I think it’s still the norm to assume a position is not flextime unless stated otherwise. My workplace has flextime, too, but new hires (who are never entirely green in our department, although some might have only had an internship) nearly always ask if it is in so many words. That’s the smart approach. Some ask at the interview, some during onboarding.

        Honestly, I don’t think there are any truly universal norms, even if you restrict it to the US. You’d think “don’t bring a bottle of booze into the office” would be, but it isn’t a rule at some tech and probably sales offices. And if 30 Rock is to be believed, nor is it in the offices of TV executives. The smart thing for people starting out is to know what MIGHT be different from what you assume, and just check. (But don’t check on the booze! Assume that one unless told otherwise.)

        1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          At one operations job I was keeper of the team liquor cabinet. I was very irate when the email went out that the liquor bottles could no longer be visible (some of them were too tall for the cabinet that had a door on it.)

          After that I often had a couple of those little airline liquor bottles in my drawer, just as an homage to operations work. (Big company computer operations is often high stress, if X is down we lose $Y thousand/minute.) I never drank them, I just had them.

        2. Not my Monkeys*

          My company has a booze cart that goes around during the holidays. Which isn’t quite the same as booze in your desk. But norms are definitely different. When I worked at a non-profit and traveled, limits on meals were strictly enforced and no booze could be expensed. At my current corporate company, drinks with dinner are fine and the meal costs what it costs. However, my corporate card doesn’t work at a liquor store, as I discovered when trying to buy wine as a leaving gift for someone on my team. I was still able to expense it, but not pay for it with the company card.

        3. amoeba*

          True. We do generally have employment contracts here though, which specify this kind of thing. But for sure, there are still workplaces where on paper something would be acceptable that just wouldn’t fly in practice.
          When I started here, it was very quickly obvious that there was no such thing as a “normal start/end time” – people generally come in at some point between 6.00 and 9.30 and leave whenever they’ve finished their hours (as long as there are no scheduled meetings, of course). Can imagine that would be harder to observe if you’re fully remote, but for me emulating what others did worked quite well.

      2. Relentlessly Socratic*

        I don’t have to tell folks when I’m moving my “lunch hour” to a different time of day, but I do like to let people know if I’m flexing time when we’re on a deadline or something or if I’ll be out a little longer than usual. Day to day when it’s slow and I’m flexing? I don’t bother.

      3. arachnophilia*

        I’m the manager of a small team, and we do quick slack check-ins at the beginning of our days – when we’ll be away from our computers for an extended time, what we’re currently working on, if we need help or have time to offer help. It’s informal, and it does help for my team to know, oh arachnophilia is in meetings all day long, so I won’t expect a quick response from her, or I’ll know that a team member is going to be out in the afternoon for an appointment. It’s not a matter of asking permission ever for those sorts of things – just letting the team know so that our often very collaborative work moves forward.

    3. RH1812*

      Being explicit about what “flexible” time means is so helpful!
      In my very first professional job out of college, I was told the job has “flexible time.” Mortifyingly I thought this meant I could just go hang out with my boyfriend whenever I wanted, including when we had team meetings scheduled! I still cringe thinking about it. Luckily my manager explained it to me eventually. Then I swung farther the other way than I needed to, feeling embarrassed if I had to leave early for an appointment. I’ve finally found a proper balance, but in retrospect for people new to the work world, clearly defining norms for flextime could be really useful.

    4. JayRi*

      I think that depends on the boss too. As long as my outlook calendar is kept up to date my current boss doesn’t want to know everything I leave early or step out for appointments. My prior boss was a micromanager and wanted exact details o when and how you were making up time (salary jobs).

  17. Soprani*

    At an in-person office if you have completed your most recent work assignment and are waiting for more work to be assigned, look busy. If the expectation is that you will have down time while engaged to work, don’t sit at your desk scrolling through social media unless you have been told clearly that is what you should do for those times.
    Some work places do not react well when an employee appears to be slacking. Use down time to do things that look productive, even if you have permission to do personal things.
    Appearances matter.

    1. Lana Kane*

      I had a job in my early days in which I shared receptionist duties with someone who was new to the workforce. I noticed that when she was at the desk and had nothing to do, she’d sit there and read a book. I didn’t have the guts to tell her not to do that since we were peers, and to give her pointers on how to look busy. I wish I had because she got called out on it by our supervisor a bit harshly.

      My mom had a coworker who would sneak in reading time in small bits by appearing to be rummaging through her filing cabinets. No one would have known otherwise, she was that good!

      1. Lana Kane*

        sorry, missing a line: “She clued my mom in, but no one would have known otherwise”. (And no, my mom didnt rat her out lol)

      2. sundae funday*

        Ahh, see, that’s where Kindle comes in. You have the Kindle app pulled up on your computer with other work stuff in the background. When someone walks by, switch to the work stuff. Then go back to the Kindle!

        1. Shira VonDoom*

          YOU’RE A GENIUS

          My current bosses absolutely don’t care if I read online if I’m out of work, but there’s only so many advice columns and whatnot I can read before I want something a little meatier.

          Time to find out if the firewall will let me access it (Amazon is blocked, but I don’t shop there for fun anyway, so it’s fine, LOL)

          1. The Prettiest Curse*

            Pocket is a lifesaver for reading during downtime at work – you can save the link to an article and it will convert it to plain text. There is an app version, and it’s also online at getpocket[dot]com.

    2. NewJobNewGal*

      Oh yes! I try to read news articles in a small window on my screen when I’m bored. The rest of my screen is filled with reports and docs that look important.

      1. Shira VonDoom*

        Depending on the job, there literally may not be any.

        I’ve had reception jobs and I’ve temped, and sometimes the answer really is “just don’t be OBVIOUS about the fact you’re reading a book/the internet”, and be responsive to calls/visitors/packages as per job duties.

        I would lose my mind if I had to stare at a wall for most of 8 hours without any kind of means to occupy myself.

        1. Vio*

          That’s exactly the case with my job. There’s only so much work that needs doing but the insurance requires a member of staff be present at all times that the building is in use (and of course there are good reasons for that!). I always have work prioritised but sometimes I run out of the “if there’s time” work as well as the “must be done”s. It wouldn’t effect my ability to do my job if I put my feet up, pulled out a crossword or jigsaw puzzle or even loaded up World of Warcraft on my laptop… but obviously all of those are unprofessional and look bad if someone sees staff doing them. But so long as my work is done, I look busy and it isn’t too distracting then I’m given a lot of freedom.

      2. Kayem*

        I try to help out coworkers when I have slack time, but our project stages are highly regulated on when the next one can start. If there’s nothing left for me to do and my coworkers don’t have anything I can help with, then there’s nothing for me to do but wait around for the next stage. Which is frequent, as it takes me only a quarter of the time at most to finish all my tasks. My boss would love to give me more work, but there is rarely any available until the next stage, unless she can get approval to put me on a second project, which is usually not permitted at my level.

        (Much of my job is a lot of dreary computer task skills. Copying and pasting between documents, organizing data, converting formats, typing technical descriptors, etc. I’ve spent the past 20 years in such jobs in academia and tech and am very, very fast at it. My coworkers are mostly retired teachers and have more experience than I in curriculum development than tedious computer tasks. Our project stages are timed for the median speed at which work is expected to be done by a typical specialist, not a specialist whose one big skill is moving bits from one page to another. So I can finish in one day what everyone else does in a week. But because I also have to be available, I’ve had to learn to schedule the tasks across the week. On the plus side, we’re all remote so no one notices if I spend several hours reading.)

      3. Miette*

        I came here to say this too. I’ve been at places where the manager was too busy to even pay attention to what I was doing, so if I finished all my projects and even the busy work, I’d straight up ask her. Of course, ymmv depending on the work and the office, but doing this also makes you look like a go-getter or more conscientious. Honestly, I just had a low threshold for boredom.

    4. Ama*

      Yeah I had to have this talk with a direct report who sat in a highly visible area and had two habits that looked like she was slacking off — when she looked at anything on her phone she turned fully away from her computer, and when she was thinking, she had a tendency to pick at her cuticles. We had to have a chat about how C-level staff were walking past her desk and seeing her doing what read to them as “not working” frequently enough that I was getting concerned comments about it, and that, though I was assuring them I didn’t have problems with her work output, she might want to try being a little more aware of when senior staff were near her desk, thinking while facing her monitor, having a work document open on the computer when taking a break to check her phone, etc.

    5. MigraineMonth*

      I think that recommending things for new people to do in their downtime is a really good idea. Particularly things that *don’t* require a lot of attention, since no one is actually capable of concentrating for 8 hours a day. Or things to work on while waiting for a question to get answered, since new people are more likely to run into a situation where they need help to proceed.

      1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

        Also, having a back up plan for things to do during short outages of Internet, phone, or electricity. It amazes me that people just…stop…when those things happen. I have back up ideas for things to do (organize files, clean desk, tackle that supply closet project, etc) to do when the Internet goes out and you can’t do real work. Obviously, you can’t do that if those things are going to be out for the whole day or longer, but a few minutes to an hour or two? Have something you can do to while you wait.

    6. Somehow_I_Manage*

      Managers are often a bottleneck for work and it takes time to prepare assignments. If you want to be a rockstar, give good feedback on your schedule in advance of completing your tasks so they can actually plan out your schedule and it’s not an immediate crisis.

    7. Spearmint*

      This varies by office. At my office it is totally normal to be on your phone in downtime, but obviously this varies by workplace so don’t assume when you first start!

      1. Stripes*

        Yeah, in my workplace we are only judged on “do we get the work done”, so our management don’t care if someone is sending a personal text or doing a bit of internet shopping or just looking out the window while thinking. There is a line (it would be weird if one of us was reading a book, because that “getting stuck in” wouldn’t suit the rhythm of our work) but for the most part no one gives a monkeys what you are doing as long as you’re helpful and you work well.

    8. Underrated Pear*

      Yes! When I had just graduated college, I took a summer temp job in an office before my full-time teaching job started up in the fall. As a college student, I was used to being BUSY – every spare moment was used for something productive. I was studying to take the GRE that summer, so I had vocab flash cards I would pull out and study for 2-3 minutes at a time whenever I had a moment (it’s semi-relevant that this was in a time (1) before smartphones and (2) when a huge number of websites, including personal email sites, were blocked on company computers, so none of those were “time wasting” options).

      One day I had about 5 minutes before someone was going to drop off some new work at my desk. Due to the nature of my temp job, there really was absolutely nothing work-related I could do in the meantime, so I pulled out my flash cards without even thinking. One of my coworkers kindly warned me that I shouldn’t do that because management wouldn’t like it “on company time.” Which of course makes sense on its own, but when I asked what we were supposed to do during these times, she shrugged and said “just sit, or pick up the phone and pretend like you’re calling someone.” What a waste!! I mean, I know they don’t want people getting deep into a book or something and forgetting what they’re supposed to be working on, but… ugh. The “sit and look busy” thing at many offices drives me crazy.

      1. Underrated Pear*

        I should also acknowledge, before someone jumps on it – there is an issue of optics, as a commenter below has pointed out. Someone walking by my area for 10 seconds wouldn’t know I was just flipping through flash cards while waiting for my manager to walk back to my desk with some files. They’d get the impression I was just sitting there collecting a paycheck while doing my own studying. So I do get it, but it was still frustrating.

        1. Strider (I wish)*

          Really frustrating.
          I say this a bit tongue in cheek, but – this is the time to develop a meditation practice.

    9. Shira VonDoom*

      Also, what constitutes “look busy” should be specified, LOL

      I’ve had jobs where I could read a book or do non-messy crafts, but they didn’t want me surfing (even work safe sites) the internet.

      Other jobs were ADAMANT I could not read a book at my desk, but I could surf the internet all I liked.

    10. Pudding*

      I had to have this talk with my direct reports. Our workload fluctuates and I don’t expect them to be 100% busy, but appearing to be unproductive leads to: gripes from other teams when anything takes longer than expected or I say no to rushing a task, pushback on my requests for outside help when our workload spikes, pushback from my bosses on backfilling people who leave, difficulty turning down requests to help other teams with high backlogs, questions from my bosses about people’s performance or the team’s capacity, and risks that I could lose staff members in a layoff more easily due to the perception that I have room for cuts.

      Also, I had a newly transferred staff member in training a few years ago who got faster as she learned, and was ready to take on more work, but didn’t tell me she was finishing her work more quickly, or ask for more to do. And she was great at looking busy, so I didn’t realize right away, but she told her friends on her old team how boredddd she was. Her old manager tried to shift more work to my team, I pushed back on it, and THEN I got to hear about how her manager knew I could do it because of how much time Jen was complaining about having on her hands. I lost the argument about the extra work, and had some choice words for Jen. Don’t do that to your boss!

    11. WorkingRachel*

      Oh, yeah, the first thing I learned in my first real office job was that you’re not supposed to read a book during the workday, but need to “look” busy somehow even if you don’t have any work and even if your boss knows you don’t have any work. (I was actually reading while I waited for a slow scanner to finish each page, so not quite the same thing–but still a bad look and I was gently reprimanded for it.)

    12. Dragonfly7*

      Yes. We were allowed to read ebooks but not physical books because the customers couldn’t see our computer screens.

    13. Kay*

      Genuine question – what’s the rational behind this? I get that perceptions matter, but I’m really struggling to see how reading at my desk (or using flash cards, or any of the other examples given here) has any real impact in cases where there’s really no work to be done.

      I didn’t have long in the office before covid hit, but it was super stressful when I had no work to do and this immense pressure to look busy! If I could have read a book, it would have been such a huge relief. This really is one of the top reasons I love WFH – I can use that time to, say, start a load of laundry, without damaging my actual productivity at all.

  18. boredatwork*

    what is and what is not acceptable small talk – we have a new hire and she is adorable but she loudly announced that she had slept with three different men that week (it was friday). Stories about staying out late and partying on work nights, crazy weekend shenanigan where cops were involved.

    Things that would be totally fine to discuss with friends, but are 100% not appropriate topics for the office. I would phrase this as your audience may be fine with this conversation but someone passing by/overhearing may not be.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      This kind of thing will always mystify me: Even in my early jobs when we were all in our teens and twenties, we’d shut down stuff like this. I specifically remember one job where a former employee applied to work there again (I didn’t know her; she left before I started working there) and everyone who had worked with her went to the manager and said, “no, way,” because she had a habit of talking graphically about her personal hygiene and sex life and they didn’t want to be subjected to it again. None of them were over 25 and they were not especially conservative or squeamish; apparently the girl was just that gross.

    3. Snoopy Clifton*

      I think we have the same employee! Ours is a lovely and talented recent college grad and I had to advise her that she shouldn’t share that she is taking some PTO because she needs to get her IUD replaced. I don’t care and our current (small) staff won’t either, but I told her that some day she might find herself working with judge-y, conservative folks who absolutely would care and who might make her work life hell because of it. It’s no one’s business what is going on medically or personally and she needs to learn to be purposefully vague.

      1. Yes Anastasia*

        Eh, I agree it makes sense to be a little more private, but I don’t consider talking about birth control to be the same as talking about your sex life, especially since not everyone on birth control is sexually active. I consider it similar to talking about childbirth or other health topics – as long as they’re mindful of their surroundings and audience, it’s up to the individual whether they want to go there.

        1. Snoopy Clifton*

          I don’t disagree, but long ago I had a co-worker who thought that the three female twenty-somethings in the office should still be virgins and act accordingly. She was absolutely horrified to learn that we did not live like nuns and that we all used birth control. In her opinion, no unmarried woman should need birth control b/c she should not be having pre-marital sex. She actually went to a supervisor and complained about this. She was shut down but was very difficult to work with after that. I am forever thankful that she was not my supervisor and had no input on my reviews, raises, etc.

          1. L*

            As someone from a faith background with relatively conservative moral views on these topics, I would never say anything about it in the workplace (let alone complain to a supervisor!) but I will say, birth control conversations at work make me HIGHLY uncomfortable. In my experience, there is often an assumption that everyone in the room is on board with this as a small talk topic, and it puts me in an incredibly awkward position as a single woman who everyone assumes must be on birth control. I am not going to preach to anyone at work but also feel like my silence draws a lot of attention to me when everyone else is participating in such a conversation, when I don’t particularly want to discuss my religious views in the workplace.

            Yeah, I get that people are on birth control for reasons other than it being a contraceptive, but it is an uncomfortable topic for the workplace.

          2. RussianInTexas*

            Years ago somehow the conversation in the lunch room turned to pajamas, and I let it slip I slept naked and an older (in her late 40s maybe? I was in my mid-20, so she was “older” to me) female coworker was shocked. SHOCKED. How could I, it’s inappropriate, indecent, tec. Mind you, I even lived alone then.

        2. Michelle*

          I feel like any kind of graphic medical stuff is inappropriate. (Though I’d argue that reproductive/genital medical stuff is especially so, being as how it’s the convergence of two bad workplace conversational choices, graphic bodily stuff and sexual implications.)

          People may not feel comfortable asking you to stop, even when they’re squicked out. (My experience has been that some women assume that graphic OB/gyn stuff is *the* all-time great bonding topic with female coworkers. (And quite a few of them think it’s the funniest thing on earth if you tell them you don’t want to hear it, and they’ll make a big show of laughing at you and doubling down.) (Usually those are the ones oversharing their graphic childbirth stories, though sometimes it’s periods instead.)

          Mind you, I’m not talking about telling a coworker (if you choose to share the info) that you were diagnosed with x disease or are scheduled for y procedure. I’m objecting to describing stuff graphically to (or in front of) people who haven’t explicitly asked for alllll of the gory details.

      2. Shirley Temple*

        That sounds pretty American, I think. Of course I want to talk about my IUD (if the topic comes up… not just willy-nilly), because a lot about gyno health and IUDs is mysterious and underresearched, and I’d like to be a resource for people who aren’t sure whether an IUD is right for them.

        And to reassure That Kind Of American, I have an IUD for my health, not for birth control. That’s because I’m a lesbian. Oops, I lost you again…

    4. Pierrot*

      I had a coworker at my last job who overshared. Granted, it wasn’t a super formal environment but the issue was more the level of detail she went into…about everything. One day I did just gently tell her that sharing the details of certain personal/family conflicts isn’t the best thing to do in front of the owner of our small business, and that it’s a good idea to keep those things close to the chest while at work in general depending on your relationship with your boss/coworkers. She wasn’t offended or hurt by what I said and had a sense of humor about it. I thought it was a kindness to say something since she was young and newer to the workforce.

      1. Pudding*

        Yep, I trauma dumped on my team in one of my first jobs, and I remember one of my coworkers finally bluntly telling me that everyone has problems and challenges in life and I was way over sharing about mine. I am really grateful to her for being so direct, I was pretty clueless.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          I had a coworker with whom I really did want to be friends but she basically introduced herself by telling me about her abusive ex and her much better (but actually, it turned out, also abusive, just not physically) second husband, and all her trauma. We had never met before. It was . . . a lot. I ended up backing way, way, off.

  19. Captain awkward*

    My first job was in a fairly small office where we all sat together in the same room. I sat opposite my boss and another senior staff member and had absolutely no idea if I needed to ask permission leave my desk to go for lunch (or at the end of the work day!). No specific lunch hours had been sent and it turned out people just left whenever suited them but I didn’t know what the rules were at first so ended up just sitting there awkwardly until my boss left for lunch at which point it was safe for me to do the same!

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Ha! My first day at my first professional job, I had read all the training packets they had given me and then was just sitting in my cubicle for a while. Luckily my coworker in the cube next to me said “why are you still here? go home” at 4:55 and I realized I could leave a little before 5pm when I didn’t have anything left to do (especially helpful the first few weeks, when I was still being trained).

    2. So Tired*

      I did something similar at my first internship! No one had told me that it was ok to leave for lunch whenever, or that when it hit 5, my day was done and I was allowed to leave. So the first day I was just kind of sitting there at like 5:15 when one of the supervisors was like “oh, why haven’t you left? You don’t need to be here still.” But everyone else was still working so I didn’t know I was allowed to leave!

    3. Shira VonDoom*

      oof, the Lunch Rules, LOL

      my first law firm, TECHNICALLY we could go to lunch whenever (I prefer later, to break up the day), but in practice, if you were out when your attorney got back from lunch, they’d get huffy. so I had to watch to see when they went to lunch, and then go immediately. they often went to lunch like 11:30.

      I hated this, LOL.

      my current firm, if an attorney is in office in a meeting, and no one else is in but me, I’ll stay clocked in till they’re done as a courtesy of my own choice. otherwise I can go whenever I want and there’s no fuss about it. these attorneys are used to working a lot more independently though.

    4. Lauren19*

      Lunch is something I’ve had to navigate differently by employer. In the agency world where time is billable, you ate lunch at your desk, and usually not until 12:30 (at the earliest). I’m in house now and people regularly do 1.5 hour sit down lunches off site. It’s baffling how different the cultures are.

      Leave time is also something you have to learn what the norms are. I had one place that ‘stated’ hours were 8:30-5. But in reality most people worked 9-6. The more senior you were, the later your day started and ended. So if a junior person came in at 7:30 or 8 and wanted to leave by 5, they better make sure it’s known to the senior folks they’re not skirting out ‘early’.

  20. eeb18*

    I think not understanding certain industry jargon or common workplace abbreviations (EOD meaning end of day, etc.) is a big one. At my first job, my manager gave me some examples of terms she hadn’t known when starting the job, and told me to ask her if I ever heard a term I didn’t understand. She did this in such an approachable way that I didn’t feel embarrassed to ask. I’ve tried to do the same thing with my new hires since.

    1. The Original K.*

      That’s an awesome thing for your boss to do! Different industries have different jargon, so a cheat sheet is really helpful for new people even if they’ve been in the work force a while but are new to your industry.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I work in the double whammy world of government & healthcare. We have a list of terms on our intranet. It also includes references for more information.

        1. starsaphire*

          We also have a page of acronyms on our intranet. I forward that link to every new hire in my department, because I didn’t know where it was for like a year and a half, and I had to keep Googling things and guessing.

          Some acronyms should not be repurposed in the work place, btw. Just sayin.

        2. RPOhno*

          I used to work in pharma manufacturing, and I wish we’d had something like that list of acronyms. Took me an embarrassing number of years to figure out that “wiffy” was actually WFI and stood for “water for injection”

        3. NotAnotherManager!*

          When I worked for a government contractor, I made a cheat sheet for new hires. There were some really crazy and unintuitive ones on there. And if you google, for example, “GFE”, it comes back with “girlfriend experience” before “government-funded equipment”.

      1. Government UnderPeon*

        I love this — I just created a excel spreadsheet and sent to our big team and said, “how many acronyms can we come up with and define in the next 24 hours? We’ll use this for the next onboarding!” Immediately seven people jumped in and I just heard from one of them, “Crowdsourcing this is such a great idea” — THANKS, AAM community!

    3. Rage*

      Yeah, that’s definitely a thing that isn’t normal in many places but should be. When I started at my current role I had zero clue about all of the acronyms that were tossed about. (Second day: “So-and-so from Tazzin is calling.” Who or what is a Tazzin? It was TASN – an acronym – but I felt awful having to literally ask the called how to spell the organization name.) I made a little cheat-sheet for myself and my boss saw it and thought it was a great idea – so we expanded on it and made it available to all new team members. Sometimes it’s easy to forget that what you now know so intrinsically isn’t universal knowledge.

      Fun fact: “Tazzin” is now my go-to fantasy character placeholder name during NaNoWriMo.

      We got a new COO 18 months ago and he was (is – do you ever stop being?) an engineer. So he brought a lot of new-to-us terminology like COB (close of business). He just tossed them out, assuming everyone knew, and very few people who did (we just had not used that specific acronym before so people who had started there careers with us and moved up in rank had likely never heard it before) – and there was much confusion.

      1. Filosofickle*

        FWIW we’ve had looooong comment threads before that confirm even if you know what EOD and COB stand for, what it actually *means* varies from person to person! Knowing the acronym doesn’t mean you know if the expected deadline is before end of regular business hours (say, 5p), the end of YOUR day (which could be later), or it’s fine as long as it’s there by morning when the other person starts.

        1. Lurker Cat*

          Also terms that share the same acronym but have totally different meanings. At my first job TOC was Total Organic Carbon, at my second job it was Theory of Constraints. I found that very confusing the first time I went to a TOC meeting at new job and it was about the ship schedule instead of the chemistry results.

          2. CurrentlyBill*

            And when I see TOC, I see Table of Contentents.

            POC is another one that’s popping up in more comms, lately — Point of Contact vs Person of Color.

            1. EvilSiegfried*

              Another fun one is POS: the Point of Sale system that like McDonalds uses when you place your order vs. Piece of S***

          4. MigraineMonth*

            I worked at a company that developed Artificial Intelligence systems and would talk about “action items” every meeting. I had a couple of confusing conversations before I realized that they weren’t telling me to build an artificial intelligence system to monitor performance, they wanted me to do it as an “action item”.

      2. NotSoEvilHRLady*

        I work in state government and we have an entire WEBSITE devoted to the acronyms for state agencies and boards, plus other useful terms.

    4. Agrajag*

      EOD is a good one, not to mention COB (close of business) if your industry uses it! I’m in a workplace now where people rarely work outside business hours, so there might not be a difference here, but at my last job COB meant “before 5” and usually required a specified time zone as we were a big, sprawling, and collaborative firm, whereas EOD meant something like “before midnight, my time zone” or “I’m not sure exactly when I’ll finish, but it’ll be on your desk in the morning.”

    5. Betty Flintstone*

      This is a great one! For EOD, also express what that really means in context. Like I used to manage someone who thought end of day meant by 11:59 pm and I meant by like 5-6 pm so I could review it in the evening if I wanted. I both clarified with her that’s what I meant, and also changed to using COB (close of business) going forward

    6. Morte*

      And different acronyms can be different things in different settings!
      EOD -Entry on Duty at my job (we use COB- close of business where EOD is commonly used)

    7. Caffeine*

      I created a wiki for team-centric abbreviations, which links out to the corporate jargon wiki. I’ve only just started remembering what KPI, SLA, and SWAG stands for.

    8. Cyborg Llama Horde*

      Or stuff like EOM meaning “end of message” aka “the subject line is all there is to this email.”

    9. Ama*

      I work in a medical research nonprofit and the disease we specialize in has so many acronyms (there are over 100 different biological iterations of this disease)– we actually have a very good website and programs designed to help patients and caretakers learn so I always encourage new hires to start there, but I also try to assure them that I’ve been here almost a decade and I still run into terms I’ve never heard before and that there is no shame in looking things up on the internet or asking for clarification.

    10. Common Taters on the Ax*

      Yes, that’s really great. I would have loved that when I was starting out. I had a boss who would write throw several abbreviations in each email, and originally I would try to figure them out. Often I could, but I reached the point where I was so annoyed, even if I could figure out her meaning, I would often ask her what she meant to make her realize how obscure she was being. Sorry, I would say, what does “wrt” mean?

    11. MigraineMonth*

      The first time I received an email with “follow up” abbreviated as “f/u”, I was shocked.

      1. Mac (I Wish All The Floors Were Lava)*

        I experienced a little frisson of shock just now reading this comment! Thank you for preparing me for meeting it out in the wild!

      2. Flying Fish*

        I work in healthcare, where follow up is often “f/u” or “FU”…. “f/u diarrhea” or “f/u colon CA” are entirely normal to see!

        Also, for us EOD means every other day…

    12. Somehow_I_Manage*

      When I was an intern, I sat in on a meeting with a contractor who was throwing out all kinds of engineering acronyms I hadn’t heard of. I kept a list and followed up with my supervisor and went through them one by one. His favorite was when I asked- “He kept saying he needed things PDQ. What is a PDQ?” He laughed and said- “Pretty Damn Quick!”

    13. new year, new name*

      For a while, I worked in a field where there were different regulations for different classes of things: Class One things, Class Two things, etc. Knowing which things fit into which class was important. Anyway, I was explaining this to my new hire and I will always remember glancing down at her notebook and seeing that she had very dutifully written down “classics” instead of “Class Six.”

    14. Llama face!*

      On the first day at my previous job- which was a new industry for me, I brought a notebook to write in and mentioned to my new supervisor that I wanted to note down any industry-specific jargon or acronyms. She responded that they didn’t have any of that sort of thing… and then proceeded to use a large amount of jargon and industry-specific acronyms the rest of the day. (Ex. CAB? No, not a taxi- that’s the Community Advisory Board.)

      So, long story short, people may not even realize the language they use is not intuitive to outsiders and asking questions to clarify is a good thing.

    15. Sociology Rocks!*

      Part of my job is taking meeting notes and, learning acronyms gets worse when half the people using them have accents and/or English isn’t their first or most used language. Unless someone else I do reliably understand uses it, I can’t always tell if it’s an acronym I know that is altered by their accented pronunciation, or if it is a new one I haven’t encountered, on top of trying to guess what the acronym means so that I can follow the conversation in a meaningful way. That and our project name is basically an acronym with an acronym within it, which I feel like speaks for itself .

    16. Michelle Smith*

      This is huge. I created a running list of acronyms and terms at my job because it was so, so confusing to keep track of them all when I first started. We share the list (which is on a shared drive so it can be updated as we all think of new ones) with all our new hires now.

    17. Hello Sweetie*

      I would have thought EOD meant Explosive Ordnance Disposal!

      Here we say COB – close of business.

    19. cor blimey*

      The company where I work just LOVES abbreviations. They have one for everything. Everybody uses them, but when you ask them what it stands for, nobody knows. We all know it’s ridiculous, but whatever. Even the CEO joked about it a few times.

  21. Introvert girl*

    During my unpaid lunchbreak at my first job out of uni we weren’t allowed to choose where we sat at the long table. You just had to sit next to where the person in front of you sat down. Most of us were rookies so we obeyed. These days I would just laugh in their face and sat down wherever I wanted and with whom I wanted.

      1. Introvert girl*

        Socialising. All of us sat in a single room (over 100 people), except for the 4 directors, the noise was just awful.

    3. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      What the heck?! I just finished watching Oz and even there, inmates could choose where to sit at lunch. smh. I am curious to know what the consequences were for not sitting in your expected spot.

    4. Tuna Casserole*

      When I was fresh out of University, I got a job at the hospital where my mom and my uncle worked. At lunchtime, I would eat with one of or both of them. Also, Mom was a department head, and other department heads would sometimes join us for lunch. The secretary of my department pulled me aside and told me that “we don’t mix with other departments” and people thought I was thinking too much of myself by eating with department heads. She also said it was unseemly to eat lunch with my uncle, because he was an older man.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        Reminds me of the woman who accused her manager of having an affair… with the manager’s own husband. She was shocked a married woman would eat lunch with a *man*.

  22. DisneyChannelThis*

    Worst one I had to try to teach new employee – not to sleep in the main hallway on their lunch break. The optics of a employee lying down in a public area just not good. He was really adamant it was his lunch he could sleep wherever the hell he wanted. The head of the division on the other hand was really adamant that if you couldn’t stay awake in the main hallway you could go home permanently.

    1. Stevesie*

      Oh yes I once rested my head on my desk during a break and got a lot of concerned looks from managers! Oddly, I have a coworker who often takes lunch naps on couches that are out of view and no one thinks anything of it.

      1. snoopythedog*

        Hidden lunch naps are life when I worked in office. Now I just set my status to away and nap at home.

      2. yala*

        I worked at a very old, well-known historic place, and there were two breakrooms–the “active” one that had the fridge, the vending machines, tables, et al where employees could eat and talk, and a “quiet” one that was dimly lit with comfy couches and chairs and looked like something out of Downton Abbey. It was heaven.

      3. No Longer Gig-Less Data Analyst*

        When I was pregnant a million years ago, I was incredibly fatigued/nauseated in my first trimester. I one time put my head down on my desk to “rest my eyes” and fell asleep for over an hour. At that point everyone knew about my condition, so when I woke up with drool on my desk calendar and asked why no one got me up (I was in a cube but not terrible out of the way), they just said they figured I needed the rest.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I fell asleep in the middle of a small meeting with my manager attending. I’m never taking that “non-drowsy” cold medicine before work again!

        2. allathian*

          I had to tell my manager about my pregnancy earlier than I wanted to, she found me asleep at my desk once. I didn’t have any pregnancy-related nausea, except when I smelled coffee, particularly stale coffee, but I was *so tired* most of the time, except for a few weeks in the middle of my second trimester. In the first trimester it was just normal hormonal fatigue, but in the third it was because I couldn’t sleep. In the last month of pregnancy I got up to pee once an hour or so.

      4. Ama*

        I had a direct report fresh out of college who did this during her lunch break, my boss saw her before I did, and she never was fully able to overcome that first impression in the two years she worked for us. She was my first report and it quite honestly didn’t occur to me to have to say “don’t sleep at your desk, even if you are on break” — now I have a whole spiel about how “you are welcome to take your lunch at your desk but be aware that people won’t necessarily know you are on lunch so you need to be prepared to answer work questions — if you want a full break for the hour I recommend you go in the lunch room or out elsewhere.”

      5. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

        At one job there was a couch that had been in someone’s office that they didn’t want any more, and there was no other good place to put it. We had them put it in the server room that only my group had access to. We would go in there, put in earplugs, and catch a nap. “Where’s Curmudgeon?” “Oh, they’re in the server room.”

    2. Wordnerd*

      My student office assistant job in college wasn’t reception, but projects/filing in cubicle in clear view of the front desk. I had to be told that while doing my homework was acceptable when I didn’t have a project, just putting my head down and taking a nap on the clock was not.
      Fun fact, I now supervise college student workers and do my best to be clear about these things!

      1. spcepickle*

        My previous boss has a whole set up under his desk! A little mat, pillow, and blanket. He naps under his desk almost every day at lunch. He does have an office, but even with the door closed we can all hear him snoring.

    4. A Person*

      I think in my workplace this would result in waking up in a ring of concerned colleagues with a first-aider trying to check your breathing!

  23. Jedi Mike*

    Something odd when I recently started my (pretty good) office job in the past few months is HOW MUCH people laugh in conversation! I accept it as normal but it still grates on me a little. Some of my coworkers also have work/non-work chats lasting upwards of an hour including said laughter. Could just be my workplace but it seems semi common here. That’s just not my conversation style. I can talk to someone for 10-15 minutes (unless it’s a work meeting) but then it just feels odd

    1. Kate*

      Yes, the norm in my department is very zingy and (kindly) jokey and sometimes I notice people from other departments being quietly taken aback when we interact with them. We don’t work on anything it’s inappropriate to have a spirit of lightness and humor around, so I think we’re a good influence.

      1. Shira VonDoom*

        yeah, I think that’s just a “different groups have different norms” thing too.

        my social media circles tend to be very bantery, and I’ve had a couple irl friends admit they didn’t participate a lot because they felt intimidated, even though I very specifically moderate my accounts because I don’t allow meanness…but for some folks, even friendly back and forth is a lot.

  24. just another queer reader*

    The idea that many/most people have set start and end times that they work each day.

    (My parents worked super-flexible and somewhat unusual hours, so I kind of figured that was how life worked. Turns out many people in my company work, say, 8 to 5 every day. I just kind of worked until I felt like going home, which was often pretty late, so I wasn’t slacking or anything, but it might have looked funny.)

    1. Forgot my name again*

      In my first job I used to come in a bit late, and would often enter the building the same time as the big boss – so I figured it was fine since he’s not making the effort to be there on time either. He sat me down and pointed out that I was working specified contracted hours and he wasn’t, which was thoroughly mortifying, and I was never late for that job again. However, working contracted hours I realised that I wasn’t being paid for the amount of work I did, only the amount of time I spent on it, which led to other problems…!

    2. Esprit de l'escalier*

      One thing I would urge new employees to find out ASAP is … it’s so basic I hesitate to type it, but it tripped me up early in my career — “What are the required hours for my job?” This can vary in different ways, and your job interviewer might not think to mention it if you don’t ask.

      I was accustomed to a start time of either 8:45 or 9:00 am and had no idea that my next job started at 8:30. It had never come up during the hiring process or when onboarding. My director finally realized that this is why I was always nonchalantly coming in late, and let me know. I was mortified….

      1. Our Mr Wilson*

        I figured this out pretty quickly when I showed up on my first day at 8 and no one was even around to let me in the building for almost an hour. I’m definitely asking in the future!

      2. Mama Bear*

        Literally was scrolling to see if someone had commented this. Especially over the pandemic, we have a ton of new / junior folks who are mysteriously disappeared in the middle of the working day and just? Don’t? Realize? That they should let people know ahead of time if they’re going to go poof? (This is like, 1-4 PM, not at some unreasonable time.)

  25. Manatee Matinee*

    “Business casual.” I still don’t know what it means! One place I worked meant “jeans and a polo,” another place meant “you can wear jeans one Friday a month but otherwise wear slacks/skirt and a blouse/collared shirt,” and in my current place I work from home in quite literally pajamas and wear a ruana when I need to go to a meeting. I miss wearing a uniform like I did in retail/fast food, because at least with a uniform you know exactly what is expected of you.

    1. Accounting Gal*

      Yes, this one is tough! Every office I’ve worked at has been “business casual” but that has been a huge range. Definitely would recommend someone new spend a few weeks seeing how other people dress and trying to fall somewhere in that range. Is it jeans + blazer? Casual shirt + flat shoes with slacks or a skirt? Or is it basically business but without the suit jacket? Such a range!

    2. Felicitous*

      As the only woman in a tech office in my first job out of college, I felt like I was constantly guessing whether my clothes were work appropriate, because there were just a bunch of men wearing jeans and polos, but I have some sensory issues and hate jeans and polos. I have since determined that no one will say anything about what I’m wearing because most of my coworkers won’t even notice, and those that do don’t want to be That Guy talking about the appearance of the only woman in the office. As such, I can wear anything I want short of a onesie.

      1. matt*

        I had the same problem, but in reverse! I was the only man in my office and everyone else was wearing dresses or skirts. Took me a little while to figure out what the equivalent level of dress was for me, but figured it out eventually.

        1. Laffing Frog*

          I used to work in Community Health and found that female staff (doctors, admin, social workers, allied health, etc) would turn up in gorgeous brightly patterned dresses, and often had quirky statement jewellery scarves, glasses.
          Male employees found the dresscode a little more baffling, as they felt a suit would come across too stuffy to the working class/disadvantaged clientele, but were afraid to wear jeans for fear of not being taken seriously enough.

    3. Feral Humanist*

      Yes, the amount of variation in “business casual” is difficult. I had trouble with this when I went from grad school (where I had dressed more formally than many of my peers and well within the “business casual” parameters of the job I had before I went back to school) to my first job after grad school. That workplace had an ED who used the dress code as a cudgel against people she thought needed to be taken down a peg, and she particularly hated pants with patch pockets –– so basically, it was abusive with a side of (in my case) fatphobia. She used to send me pictures of $200 blazers despite knowing that I made 1/6 what she did. (Yes, she was a nightmare in many others ways.)

      I have something of a stubborn streak, so I started wearing pants with patch pockets with long sweaters over them. No one knew but me, but that made all the difference. And after she finally left and we got leadership who didn’t care about the dresscode in the same way, I started dressing better than I ever had under the old ED!

      1. Feral Humanist*

        I should add: She had been known to SEND PEOPLE HOME TO CHANGE because their pants had patch pockets.

        1. Seashell*

          I have never even heard of a patch pocket, so I wouldn’t have known what she was talking about.

          1. Feral Humanist*

            I never had either! It’s the pockets on the back of jeans and corduroys. She had special hatred for ones that have visible hardware, like rivets. She thought it made the pants too casual for work. As though we were all walking around examining each other’s rear-ends! *facepalm*

    4. TX_Trucker*

      I don’t think anyone “knows” what business casual means. Decades ago, I used to work in an ultraconservative office. Their definition of business casual still required men to wear a suit, but they could skip the tie.

    5. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      It’s helpful when companies like mine provide a list of acceptable and unacceptable under the business casual definition. I really appreciated that when I first started. My previous company was business casual and what was okay there was on my present company unacceptable list.

    6. Thatoneoverthere*

      My first job out of college was at a small temp firm. I typically wore nice sweaters/blouses, slacks and dress shoes. The one guy in our office, wore polos and khakis. My manager was stuck in the 80s/90s (this was in 2008) and wore really out of date pant suits. She pulled me aside and said I needed to dress exactly like her and stop wearing blouses and slacks. She said I could probably find matching suit sets at Goodwill. For the record I wore a suit to my interview, but everyone (literally everyone but her) dressed the way I did. I asked her why the one guy in the office could wear a polo and I was supposed to wear a jacket. She didn’t have an answer.

      A few weeks later I asked to leave at 4:30 for a 5pm doctor’s appointment and she fired me on the spot. It was the worst ran place in the world. I honestly was happy she fired me!

    7. The Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon*

      I asked early on at my current job what “business casual” actually meant for us, and my boss laughed at said, “Oh we only have a dress code because the biologists kept turning up for meetings straight from the field covered in mud. Other than no visible dirt, maybe don’t wear a bathing suit, maybe don’t wear a ballgown.” I have managed to abide by all of those rules since then.

      1. Corporate Goth*

        I gave a presentation in college in what became known as “the ballgown” later. I was two hours away from home, no car, no clothing stores within walking distance (or money, for that matter), and it was a formal thing. My choices at the time were ripped jeans or a long purple dress. I only found out because the instructor forgot it was me and cautioned people in the next class that suits were more appropriate than ballgowns.

        I still think it was better than the plaid miniskirt my partner wore, but also I did nearly all the work the night before while she slept…sigh.

    8. Captain Swan*

      My first professional job (decades ago) was extra fun on the wardrobe front. I was the only female employee (really small engineering firm) in our office and the vast majority of my coworkers were closer to my parents age. Coworkers clothing choices were more formal than business casual but not quite business formal. Throw in the fact that I’m a plus sized woman. I shudder at the amount of effort I spent trying to thread the needle on dialing in equivalent work appropriate outfits given my age and size. I definitely could have used advice from similarly situated experienced coworkers.

    9. Not Mindy*

      I have never heard the word ruana before. I think it would be a great entry in a NYT crossword puzzle.

    11. Magenta*

      I had to go and train an team in Manila, I was told the business casual dress code was vigorously enforced and so packed the clothes I would wear to visit clients in London. It turns out that in that office business casual meant jeans, ho0dies and trainers so my tailored dresses with heels and sheer tights (pantyhose?) were really out of place!

    12. another poster*

      Yes, this. Wait a few weeks and play it VERY SAFE/usually too nice is safer than the opposite, before you buy anything new or take big swings attire-wise. Also, know that the goal is to swing for the middle of the dress code, until you have some goodwill stored up at least. Maybe no one cares that the mad scientist/genius shows up rumpled cause they’ve worked there forever and aren’t outward facing… but you are new and probably should dress more like the middle range. Also, I know there’s been other questions on this – what you wear to go out to the bars probably isn’t what you should wear to work. I work around the legislature (so granted very conservative attire, and on occasion you all have to be business formal). The interns or new hires – the number of them in miniskirts, crop tops, and clear heels is pretty high. bring it with you and change after work before happy hour.
      OH! and I love fashion and colorful clothes accessories etc. But at some point, you want to be remembered for your good work, and what you said, instead of what you wore. So taking some time to figure out your work style makes sense.

  26. Jessica*

    This is going to be a great thread. So many of the things I can think of either have changed over the years or are variable. But I think even for things where work culture is different from one workplace to another, there are things it’s good to be aware of. Like, not “A is universally true,” but “some workplaces are A, some are B, and you should always pay attention and figure out which one is in effect.”
    For instance:
    — If you have an office, norms about door open or closed, disturbing, and knocking.
    — How much does punctuality matter if you’re not hourly
    — Do you ask or tell for vacation time? Is there a process to share coverage around popular times?
    — What about doing personal things in the workplace, whether it’s making a personal-business call or playing on your phone—huge faux pas, or some amount is normal, or what
    — Dress, of course.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Lunch & break culture! Sometimes people take breaks together. Where I work when you’re in the office, there’s a strong culture of walking on breaks to get caffeine or lunch. You can go alone, but you often have company. And sometimes people just want to go for a walk.

      At my old job, I generally took most walks by myself. But my team often went together to a restaurant for lunch at least every couple of weeks.

    2. Little My*

      The punctuality thing is HUGE. My first job I got in a lot of trouble for being 5-10 minutes late every day. At my current office even pre-pandemic that didn’t matter at all.

    3. Bird Lady*

      When I had a door to my office, I usually closed the door for confidential conversations, or if I was handling sensitive materials. I used to work in Development, so I often had people’s bank information to process gifts. I had a whiteboard on the outside of the door, where I would leave notes indicating I was in a confidential meeting until a certain time, or I was working on a tight deadline and to knock if there was an important request. My manager and the board president knew they could come in at any time, unless I was in a confidential conversation.

      And since I worked from before offices opened until well after they closed, I totally made personal calls to schedule doctor’s appointments, or when I was buying a house, send info to the lawyer. That was the only way these things were going to happen.

    4. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      A thing I learned relatively early on is that if you leave someone’s office, it’s good to ask, “Door open or closed?” regardless of its state when you arrived or while you were there. Because they might be about to get on the phone, or might be about to get coffee, or whatever, and it’s a courtesy that indicates your respect for their private space.

      1. Corporate Goth*

        Yes, this! And whatever you do, don’t fling an office’s closed door open without knocking.

  27. Prospect Gone Bad*

    The way most larger companies silo off 99% of information from entry level workers and then get mad they make “mistakes” based on their lack of knowledge of the larger picture. I consistently had this at my last job. For example, at one company, I couldn’t even look up what the parts were I was entering orders for. Yes, I kid you not. But then I’d get frantic calls about putting in an order for an A38218283 when it was supposed to be an A38222992 which is a completely different thing and obviously it was wrong because the customer (who’s order history I couldn’t search) always ordered that. This is why I switched to smaller companies.

  28. S*

    When I started out I had a hard time telling when/how it was ok to interrupt someone at their work to ask a question. Now with IM it’s easier, they can just ignore you or give a “later” response if it’s not a good time. But in person is still confusing

  29. Doozy*

    I remember being really surprised that I couldn’t take time off without pay whenever I wanted. Sure, I got 2 weeks vacation (or whatever) but early in my career I thought that was just a limit on how much they’d pay for, and if I wanted to take a month off in the summer, for example, it was just a matter of making sure my budget would cover the 2 weeks without pay. It was a big surprise to me that a lot of places did not want you taking off more than whatever their vacation allotment was.

    2. Stevesie*

      I had a similar experience! I went from a job where people worked overtime during busy season, and hours were cut during slow season. Not an issue to take unpaid time off during the slow season at all. Next job I had to beg to get some unpaid time off for a long vacation I had planned without knowing they didn’t allow that.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      I know some young workers who still do this. I don’t think they’ve yet seen the parallel between taking a lot of time off and not advancing at the job (or even keeping jobs long term). Some jobs will be explicit that unpaid time is not allowed. Others will let you do it, but it isn’t a good long-term strategy.

      1. sal*

        And at some it’s fine! I’m so grateful to work at a company that allows unpaid PTO. Even a lot of managers and “high value” employees (in my section, anyway) have taken a month+ off.

    4. EvilSiegfried*

      I’m at my first job and one of my coworkers just got COVID, so she had to stay home and dipped into “negative PTO”, a concept that was and is truly bizarre to me. I thought if you were out of PTO and you got COVID, it would just be UTO by default. I’m still not clear about how negative PTO works, what if she gets sick again? What if she quits before she gets back into the positive?

      1. Allison Wonderland*

        I guess it’s possible they would make her pay back those days if she left before accruing more PTO, though hopefully they would let it slide. I’ve never worked for a place that combined sick time and vacation into one PTO bank, so I’m still kinda confused how that works. And is there no short-term disability option for an illness that lasts longer than 5 days or so?

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          I worked at a place with combined, and it was only allowed to carry over 1 week. So in order to take a vacation in February, before I had accrued more time, I had to go negative. And yes, I was required to keep accruing to catch back up, and it would have come out of my last paycheck if I’d quit before I had caught up. This was a place that did not allow unpaid time off, period.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          Everywhere I’ve worked, you’re allowed to dip into the red on PTO. If you quit or are fired, you need to pay back the company, just like the company has to pay you for PTO you’ve earned but not used.

          I’ve never had short-term disability coverage kick in at less than 90 days, but if you qualify for FMLA they have to allow you to take time unpaid once you’ve exhausted your PTO.

          1. ronda*

            its not universal that you get paid out for unused vacation. state law in Georgia does not require it . other states might.
            (I was laid off and they didnt pay the vacation time)

        3. Captain Swan*

          Almost everywhere I worked had all leave in one bucket. Generally, if the employee went negative on PTO and quit before they had worked it off and were positive again then the remaining PTO was paid back to the company out of the employee’s last paycheck. It’s basically the reverse of the scenario where an employee has unused PTO and quits. Unused PTO is paid out in the lastvpaycheck. At least at places I have worked, other companies or states may have different rules.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        Where I currently work, they award you the coming year’s allotment of PTO, but you haven’t actually earned it yet. So if you use the three weeks in January and quit in March, you owe the organization money.

        This is a change from every other place I’ve worked (where you earn PTO each month), and I would have gone into the red for a December vacation if they didn’t decide that the refresh happens mid-December for some reason.

  30. darlingpants*

    I wish someone had walked me through the cycle of reviews -> raises. In my industry/region you have self-reflection reviews in December, manager reviews in January, raises are decided in February, your bonus is paid in March and you new salary kicks in in April. So if you want a raise in April you better be thinking about it in December.

    This is for very large companies, I’m sure for smaller companies in the same industry it’s a little more flexible, but it is very common to have bonuses paid in March, enough that it’s hard to recruit in Q1 because everyone is waiting for their bonus payout.

    1. urguncle*

      In tech, and our bonuses have almost always paid out at the end of Q1 specifically to keep you around for them. I think it’s manipulative, because it does legitimately make it more difficult to find a job later in the year, when budgets have been in effect for several months. It definitely keeps you in the mindset of “well, what’s another year?” until you can’t take it anymore.

      1. Captain Swan*

        I had a coworker once that was very dissatisfied with the company about something. He planned ahead. Did the interviews and got and accepted an offer that had very flexible timelines for start date. 3 months later he turned in his notice to our employer, the day after our yearly bonuses were paid out. Started the job (with the offer he signed 3 months earlier) after he worked out his notice.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I’m very glad my first manager told me to set achievable goals because raises were based on our reviews. He also told me to include projects I worked on that weren’t directly related to my goals when I was filling out my self-reflection reviews because he can’t remember everything all of his reports worked on all year, and that helped him write a better review for me.

      1. ferrina*

        This is such helpful info. I learned early on that the annual review is often a marketing doc- you want to be honest, but generally complimentary.

        I learned the hard way that your manager will probably forget what you did last year. My manager completely forgot about anything I had done more than 3 months ago (and she didn’t read my self review). Now I make bullets, “happen” to chat about my accomplishments in 1:1s a couple weeks before reviews to jog my manager’s memory

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      When I worked PT jobs that didn’t fall under a corporate review/raise cycle, I wish I knew how to ask for a raise.

      My dad was in a union, & my mom worked somewhere that had set reviews, so it never came up when they discussed work.

    4. Somehow_I_Manage*

      It’s so variable and often unstructured, that this is actually a totally reasonable thing to ask your supervisor about in any job.

    5. Pink Candyfloss*

      Our cycle is the same – we probably work in the same large global industry lol.

      People stay until March bonuses are paid out and then you see a surge in announcements of departures and new hires at month-end and into Q2.

    6. L*

      Oh yeah this is an important one if you work in the white collar fortune 500 world. If you ask for a raise when they give you your performance review… you are way too late for anything to happen!

  31. Former Retail Lifer*

    My friend and I got a job in an office in high school and were told only that the dress code was “business casual.” We just thought that meant no jeans or shorts, so we both regularly rolled in wearing band t-shirts with a flannel over them and khakis or corduroy pants (it was the early 1990s). It took far too long for someone to pull us aside and school us on what they meant by business casual.

    2. Love to WFH*

      Just today at work, someone used “not wearing shorts to work” as an example of commonly understood expectations.

      I was “what?” In the places where I’ve worked in software development, wearing cargo shorts to work was completely normal. (Also commonly done in freezing weather, but that’s another topic.)

      1. Michelle Smith*

        There is so much variation even within industries, that it’s really important to be specific if there are strict expectations. I’ve always worked at relatively conservative offices (legal field), but one place took it entirely too far and mandated that if you were wearing a skirt you HAD to wear pantyhose with it. No this wasn’t the 90s, this was 2017!

  32. Kay*

    Maybe not quite a norm? But when I got my first proper office job, I wish someone had really gone to the trouble to explain how Outlook works. I got through a whole year without needing to send someone a calendar invite, but it was super embarrassing to have to ask someone to show me how to do it. I was in my mid-30s, but I was coming from a hands-on field where we just didn’t use that kind of system. Someone More Important Than You scheduled a meeting and told you about it, period.

    1. Mbarr*

      This. I manage student employees, and didn’t realize until a month after my first student started that he didn’t know how to schedule meetings with zoom info in them. Nor did he know how to set up an Outlook rule.

      I was also surprised to find out that my students prefer to use the online version of Outlook instead of the desktop version. There are minor but important differences in the UI of both that can affect instructions. (E.g. One of my excel workbooks has a bunch of power queries that only work if the file is open in the desktop version.)

      1. lunchtime caller*

        I absolutely prefer the online version too (though I will often keep both open so I can use the desktop one for the calendar) and it often surprises my coworkers who are all the same age as me! I think it’s because I didn’t start using Outlook until a couple of years ago, and the online one is closer to the Gmail UI.

      2. umami*

        I just hired a new admin. assistant, and she was having issues because she would open emails in the online version and not find attachments and such. I couldn’t understand why not until I went over to her desk. I also asked her to send an email as a blind copy to a list of recipients, and she didn’t know what that was. To her credit, she figured it out and then told me that was her first time doing it, so she’s definitely resourceful!

      3. Parakeet*

        Heh, I haven’t been an undergrad in a long time (elder millennial), and I never had to do either of those things at work until my current job, which I started last year. They weren’t too hard to figure out by myself, but they were new to me.

    2. Kvothe*

      I second this! Also figuring out if the culture allows you to just look at everyone’s calendars and send an invite, or engage in the email back-and-forth before picking a time. (It the back-and-forth drives me crazy when people won’t use the Outlook features to avoid this, but sometimes in the office culture it’s required.)

      1. Kate*

        I appreciate your awareness that this can be a cultural difference! For me it feels HUGELY peremptory to get an invite with no email first.

      2. NotAnotherManager!*

        My boss made a big push about 5 years ago to move everyone from a bunch of meeting scheduling emails over to using scheduling assistant in Outlook and just sending it with a note that says, “please propose a new time if this doesn’t work for you”. It is so much more efficient, and getting emails asking about availability irritate the crap out of me – I keep my calendar up to date, if you insist on sending the email at least look and propose a time that’s not already occupied?

    3. ferrina*

      So much! Or sending a PTO hold on a calendar that then makes all the recipients look like they are busy all day…..that’s a pet peeve of mine, and I’m now very cognizant of showing junior staff how to send an invite that is marked as Free (i.e., don’t clutter my calendar, I do enough of that on my own)

    4. Accounting Gal*

      This is good but I’m going to add for people new to the workforce: don’t be afraid to Google something like this. Something like sending a calendar invite in Outlook is easily Googled and then it’s one less thing you had to ask someone how to do (as opposed to internal processes or tasks requiring institutional knowledge – things you can’t look up online)

    5. Devo Forevo*

      Thirding this point since I had this conversation two days ago with a subordinate who was consistently missing important info. Turned out she didn’t know she could organize her inbox. We were about to put her on a PIP!

    6. a name goes here*

      Absolutely this. Outlook can be a really powerful tool and some of these kids may not be familiar enough with it to even know the right questions to ask.

      Then even when you know how to check someone’s calendar, there is a lot of workplace etiquette that might need to be spelled out. Who should you copy and when? When should you drop people out of copy? When is it ok to decline a meeting? What info to include when sending a meeting invite?

    7. Mama Bear*

      On a related-ish note, email culture – do people read long emails? How do they feel about bullets or bolded headings? (Some people apparently find this condescending, who knows?) is it common practice to put a TL;DR somewhere in the email?

    8. Texan In Exile*

      I needed to align the checkboxes on a powerpoint slide and was holding a ruler up to the computer screen, manually moving each bit of text and still not able to get it right.

      My boss saw me and started laughing. And then he showed me how to use the align function.

  33. CLC*

    Over summers in college I had worked admin office jobs and was paid hourly. After college I worked in consulting on a salary. Not having a lot of rules/structure was really confusing at first. How long can I take for lunch? What time do I come in? When is it ok to leave? Who do I tell if I’m going to be out? What do I do if I’m low on work? This was over 20 years ago and consulting is notorious for leaving new grads to figure everything out themselves. But I think when you are new to less structured jobs after working in retail or admin it’s really important for someone to level set upfront and actually help you navigate these things. I’ll also note that this was particularly hard for me being ADHD. Always remember that these things are particularly difficult for ND employees.

    1. Data Slicentist*

      I didn’t know that I’m ADHD until recently (about 10 years into my career), but this really resonates with me. I was so glad to have having public transit schedules set my start and end times, since nobody cared as long as my work was done…definitely an adjustment.
      Once I *did* get the hang of things, I was shocked by how much better I performed in an office environment than I had in academic settings.

    2. ferrina*

      I’m in consulting, and I second this. Our new grads are historically expected to watch the senior staff and figure everything out from there. In practice, it just means that folks with a hands-on manager get better training than those whose managers are MIA. And it meant that any mid-levels that were hired from outside the company got 0 formal introduction to company culture- you had to intuit everything. It was a disaster.

      Thankfully my company is overhauling this. There’s a deliberate effort to unify and document institutional knowledge and expectations. We completely changed the onboarding process to clearly state expectations and give safety nets for when we inevitably miss something. Because it was soooo exclusionary for ND or anyone that didn’t have the same upbringing as the upper management (I’m in both categories).

  34. Presea*

    I had no idea how flexible hours were supposed to work; I’m neurodivergent in a way where “it’s okay to just do whatever you want or need” or “I need you to do [time sensitive task] it in an hour or two” are ambiguous to the point of making me feel stressed and confused. I didn’t understand that (in my context, in every professional job I’ve personally worked) there’s actually no such thing as being “late to work” as long as I’m working the correct number of hours in the end!

    My first professional job was an hourly wage job that included a billable hours component, but obviously I would occasionally work hours that weren’t billable to the client. I thought that if the hours weren’t billable, I shouldn’t put that time on my time sheet to get paid for it, but I was actually required by law to be paid for that time.

    Speaking of requirements to be paid for time – in a college internship, I had no idea that it was actually an Extremely Big Deal that I kept procrastinating on turning in my employment papers that allowed me to actually be legally employed by the university. I worked for free for like, two months before it occurred to me that not turning those in might have something to do with me not getting paid.

    1. CheeryO*

      My first job out of college was at a small consulting company, and it was an absolute nightmare for me with all of the unwritten rules about billing hours and how slow or fast to work and what to do when you didn’t have enough to do.

  35. Former Retail Lifer*

    At my first job ever, I didn’t understand how the payroll cycle worked and I always thought my hours were wrong. If I got paid every two weeks on Friday, I thought it should include my hours through Thursday. I didn’t realize that payroll closed the week before and there was a delay.

    1. Allison Wonderland*

      Yeah, and this is arguable kind of fishy. It sucks if you start a job and have to potentially wait up to 3 weeks to even get your first paycheck.

      1. KathyG*

        This is quite common if the employer is using an outside payroll processing service. For example, if you want a payday on Friday, you may have to submit the input (on THEIR forms) by 3:00pm Tuesday. Depending on the format your HR/Payroll gets the info in, it can take a day or two to tabulate, reconcile, and do data entry. Suddenly, a working week has been used up.

        I do agree that it sucks from an employee standpoint.

    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      One of the things I appreciated about my first employer is that they sent all the hourly employees a schedule each year that included the pay dates and the ranges of dates that were included in each check. We did our own payroll in-house, so it was only off by a few days, but, when I was working OT, it was really helpful for my tracking purposes.

    1. Valancy Trinit*

      Exclude, usually. However, whether working through lunch is acceptable/encouraged varies widely from company to company.

  37. just another queer reader*

    Clothing was a tough one for me!

    In my first job, my boss’s expectations of what I should wear didn’t match the company’s dress code, and it resulted in awkwardness on my boss’s part and strong resentment on my part.

    I like Alison’s strategy of spelling out clothing expectations really clearly to new hires, because it isn’t always obvious!

    1. Kowalski! Options!*

      Absolutely. And it can go both ways, too: I’ve started jobs where I walked in wearing a business suit and nice shoes, only to find out that most of the people (programmers, specifically) were dressed like they were going to a Pearl Jam show after work. Awkward as hell when you’re dressed like a C-suite type but definitely not C-suite level!

      1. FEE FI FO FUM*

        I started working in the not-for-profit sector where the organisation guide books stated that employees had to dress professionally, in formal officewear.
        No jeans, no branded clothing or running shoes.

        Low and behold, the 1st week was a surprise indeed, as all staff I encountered wore branded casual clothing and sneakers, and the big boss himself wore loud Hawaiian shirts.

        Imagine the awkwardness of me turning up in a formal suit.

    2. Jules*

      I got pulled aside in my first job (law firm) and told that I needed to dress more professionally. I was technically adhering to the dress code (no jeans, no tennis shoes) but I was WAY too casual for the environment. It was mortifying.

  38. SpringIsForPlanting!*

    If it’s not a chair, don’t sit on it. (Desk, table, floor…)

    Should I have known this? Yes. Did I? Somehow no.

    1. Katie from Scotland*

      In the category of “Should I have known this?”:
      Don’t show up to work hungover on a regular basis, and definitely don’t gloat to your boss about how great your nights out are.

      How I wish someone would have told me that bars and offices have completely different work norms.

  39. No Tribble At All*

    Don’t sass people just because that’s how you talk to your friends! Your coworkers (at least initially) are not necessarily your friends; they’re just being friendly. Affectionate teasing is noooooot always received well.

    1. CreepyPaper*

      This, particularly because I had to defuse this exact situation between two of our younger team members over Teams chat today. Back in my early career in the 2000’s, that sort of thing was shut down instantly and never happened again but recently it seems to have become more of a norm to talk to your coworkers like they’re your buddies, at least in my office.

    2. Little My*

      That is so real, and goes hand in hand with “don’t curse in most offices, even if we’re all adults.”

      1. Kayem*

        The only office I ever worked in where people cursed like they needed it to breathe was a small law firm that was constantly overworked and understaffed. I’ve never heard so many f-bombs dropped in one day. My mom stopped by one day one her way through town and I don’t think she’s ever gotten over hearing so many people in nice suits use every swear in the dictionary.

        1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          LOL. In computer operations we used to say “We have three vices: drinking, smoking and cussing.” Well, I no longer smoke, rarely drink, so all I have left is cussing. grin

          The university pitched kitten fits when I cussed, but said absolutely zero when the men cussed. I’m AFAB, and it was sexist as hell. They had to shut up about it when I noted that my bucket mouth was mostly a result of my stroke short circuiting my filters. Under stress, I cuss like a sailor, and don’t realize it until after I said it.

      2. Eater of Cupcakes*

        That’s why I avoid swearing regardless of circumstances. I can’t accidentally offend somebody if the worst thing I ever say is “What the Jack Robinson?”

      3. umami*

        There’s a newer (and considerably younger) VP on our team, and she will quite regularly use a curse word casually for emphasis. It does seem weird! And believe me, I was in the military, cursing does not bother me at all, but it sounds very strange in the president’s conference room. I’ve wondered if I should mention something, but also I don’t think the boss or anyone else on my team minds, so I haven’t.

        1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          The CIO of my current company, called me on Friday afternoon about a meeting Monday morning. She warned me that some people used somewhat rough language, and she hoped I wasn’t bothered by it. I managed not to laugh, and told her it wasn’t a problem, I’d done field work. (I absolutely laughed when I got off of the phone! My spouse wondered what was so funny…)

    3. Fernie*

      Yes, this! I got a very stern talking-to once when I forgot my boundaries and talked this way to my boss who was the owner of the company.

  40. too many dogs*

    Right out of college (100 years ago) the first thing we noticed about the working world was: In Real Life you can’t skip class for a week and then stay up all night to catch up. You had to show up Every Day. Decades later, I see this confusion in some new hires when they realize that being hired to work on Saturdays really means showing up every Saturday.

    1. Prospect Gone Bad*

      For me, it was the opposite! You can’t reschedule school, but if you’re deathly sick you can have someone cover for you, move meetings, or dial into something/do an urgent task from bed nowadays and sleep the rest of the day

      1. Mother of Cats*

        Yes, that’s what it was like for me as well! My current job is the first one I’ve ever had with paid time off, and the first time I used it, I felt so weird about being paid but not actually working. I’m still getting used to having sick days, but I feel like that’s a good problem to have.

  41. WiscoKate*

    I didn’t realize I didn’t have to let anyone know I was going to the bathroom at my office job. Finally my coworker kindly let me know that I could just go when I needed.

    1. lilsheba*

      I worked that way for YEARS and then I had to take a call center job where that was micromanaged and if I went to the bathroom outside of breaks or lunch I was “out of adherence” I ended up saying “screw that” and just went when I needed to, I’m not in kindergarten here I am an adult and disabled and will go when I need to go.

    2. nm*

      I am always telling my students (new to college) that they don’t need to tell me when they go to the bathroom!

    3. Zephy*

      Even so, especially if it’s just you and one other person in the office, it’s good form to let them know you’re stepping out for a second, if it’s a public-facing office. But yeah generally speaking unless you being away from your work space for five to ten minutes is going to cause immediate problems, nobody actually needs to know your every move.

  42. NyaChan*

    Not to show up early to meetings if it is in someone’s office. I was so used to an entry-level cube setting where you had to get a separate conference room that it didn’t occur to me that showing up 10-15 minutes early would interrupt someone’s work if we were meeting in their office. I guess somewhere in my head, I assumed they’d either start early or wouldn’t mind me sitting there until we were ready to start. Instead, they very politely asked me to come back at the proper meeting time. Always made sure to wait somewhere else after that if I was early to arrive.

    1. AGC*

      Yes, I had to work on this type of thing with interns a few summers back. We regularly used a conference room 3-10ft from their cubes, in full view of our whole (small) team, and they would get there 5-10 min early to sit, like you would for class.

      1. L*

        I totally forgot I had this issue when I was an intern. I sat on the other side of the floor from most of my coworkers, and I wasn’t too busy during my internship, so sometimes I was waiting around most of the day not doing much until a meeting happened. I’d go over 5-10 minutes early (like for a class!) and was always surprised no one had shown up yet. Duh, it takes 10 seconds to walk to the conference room, you don’t need to be there 10 minutes early! Lol.

    2. PerplexedPigeon*

      This! Right out of high school I joined the Air Force, and the rule was “if you’re early, you’re on time; if you’re on time you’re late!” and people meant it. 20 years out of the service and I still struggle to be on time and not early to everything. Or to be a little late if I need to stop at the bathroom on the way. And not get anxious if other people are 2-5 minutes late to meeting me…they didn’t ghost me, they’re just normal people.

    3. Michelle Smith*

      Do this with Zoom too please folks! It’s really awkward when the new person shows up to the virtual meeting 15 minutes early. I’m not starting early. I will be there at the start time or, if I’m leading it, 5 minutes before to get set up. I really don’t want you sitting in the room while I’m trying to get my slides loaded up and I don’t like feeling pressured to start a meeting well before it’s actually supposed to start. Plus, if my previous meeting is running over, now I’m asking you to leave or come back 10 minutes into the scheduled time and it just feels uncomfortable. Just check some email or take a quick walk and sign in when it’s time to start!

  43. WonderWoman*

    When I started my career, I struggled with assessing how long tasks would take and didn’t know how to communicate expectations with my supervisor. It also took me a while to understand the definition of done for different types of tasks (ie, an early draft vs. a client-ready deliverable.)

    1. ferrina*

      Yes! And building in time for interruptions- I kept giving the time the task would take me start-to-finish, but I was in a role where I would be regularly interrupted. I had to learn how to build in buffer time for the ad hoc work.

  44. Michelle*

    Not an office norm, but in my first job after college I was surprised to realize that co-workers, and bosses, were sometimes just dumb. I’d just assumed that everyone involved in an organization had the org’s best interests as their priority, and anyone in a position of authority would exercise that authority wisely.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      In a similar vein, I was surprised when I realized that not everyone who worked at the same company got along. Because I was the new person, I didn’t have the backstories, so I didn’t know who just rubbed each other the wrong way and who had legitimately bad work experiences with each other.

    2. xyz123*

      LOL I was going to say something like this but wasn’t sure how it would go over. This was the single biggest culture shock for me once I got into the working world. There are people who are bad at their jobs and no one does anything about it, and people who don’t care about their jobs at all and again no one does anything about it. Wild stuff.

    3. ferrina*

      ROFL! I love this so much!

      I came at this from the opposite end–I was super jaded starting in elementary school (I was abnormally smart but ADHD; regularly argued with the teachers, and was regularly right). I assumed dumb people were everywhere, and I would make snide comments. Quickly had to learn to quit that.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        In a similar vein, I got a talking to from my supervisor for complaining loudly in a public space about what a crappy job a coworker had done on something that I then had to completely redo. And then I argued with that feedback and told her everyone in earshot of me was aware that his work was crap, and I was just saying what everyone was thinking.

        I got better.

    4. CheeryO*

      Honestly, yeah. Figuring out how to work around people who are incompetent or lazy or do things their way instead of the standard way is hard, especially when some of those people are your superiors.

  45. Limotruck87*

    I think my biggest learning curve was how to talk to clients/customers. I’ve worked in veterinary medicine my whole life, and in my early twenties I said a lot of judgmental, flippant, know-it-all things to clients that make me cringe now. I didn’t have a good grasp of the line between things-that-may-be-accurate/true-but-will-alienate-clients and things that I could say without reflecting poorly on myself or the practice.

    In retrospect, I wish I’d had some training or guidance on how to interface with clients in a professional way–it wasn’t something I showed up to my first adult job automatically knowing.

    1. Angstrom*

      Yup. Learning to talk less with clients/customers was important. It took a while to grasp “it’s not ok to lie, but it is normal to tell only the parts we want to share” in a business context.

    2. cor blimey*

      I had a coworker who started with us straight out of university, and he had some weird notions about the hierarchy. Well, I thought it was weird. He would “sir” and “ma’am” everybody more senior than him, and he would treat the admin staff like they were his personal assistants. We tried to explain to him that you treat everybody with the same respect, regardless of their position, but he didn’t get it. He said shit like “If I walk into their office I expect them to stand up and say ‘what can we do for you'”, and “There are many other people who want their jobs.” And I said “Sure, and there are other people out there who can replace you.”
      It took him a while to realise he is just another employee. But he got there. Now he’s doing alright.

    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      I was a condescending know-it-all in my 20s, and I am so grateful that a few mentors pulled me aside and gave me the feedback I needed to knock that shit off because it was overshadowing the quality of my work. It was hard to hear, but it really helped me a lot.

  46. The Wizard Rincewind*

    At my first job, I worked with my mom. I called her “Mom.” All my coworkers asked “Have you seen your mom recently?” I didn’t think anything of it, but I know now that in many workplaces, that wouldn’t be the norm. (In this instance, it was a small, privately-owned office that my mom had worked in for years before I showed up, so everyone already knew me as “X’s daughter” and that just transferred over to my work.)

    (And if anyone’s curious, we worked together very well!)

    1. t-vex*

      I work in a company with a couple of parent-child combos and most people go years without ever knowing they’re related! Last month Lacey was off for a family member’s funeral and many people were confused why that meant Susan was out too.

    2. Hanani*

      I worked in my parent’s office when I was in high school, and the full-time staff were always a little wary around me. I ended up never eating lunch in the staff lunchroom (for example), because I’d be immediately introduced as “so-and-so’s child” to any new person.

      I’d handle it much better now, but as a very awkward 16yo, I had no idea what to do.

  47. The Person from the Resume*

    If their job involves answering a phone (it may not), I’d school them on phone etiquette for the company.

    It’s less and less necessary in business and life, but if you expect them to have to be professional on the phone explain it.

    I was in college and this was not a job, but had a wierd situation where I was put in a room and told to answer the phone and when it rang I just said “hello” like I did at my own home. The guy on the other end was not happy with that and expect the name of the office.

    Come to think of it, it’s probably the source of some of my phone resistance today in addition to shyness and introvertness which prefers not to be put on the spot about speaking.

    1. Zephy*

      Phone scripts are such a basic thing – even if your employee has some idea of business phone etiquette, there’s nothing wrong with saying “we want you to greet callers in this way.” A new-to-the-workforce-at-all employee might well have never used the phone in a business context; a new-to-your-company employee certainly doesn’t know how your phone tree works.

    2. Common Taters on the Ax*

      Oooh, yes, this was a big one for me in my first office job, when I was in college. For example, my boss told me to call a bunch of people to confirm appointments, and no one else was around to ask how to do that. I knew what it basically meant, but I’d never heard anyone do it, and I had no script. I couldn’t think of any way to ask, Are you planning to show up? that didn’t seem rude. But really, everything about the phone, I needed lessons on, including not just what to say to people but where the hold button was, how to switch between lines, etc.

    3. Michelle Smith*

      And if they have their own phone (landline or cell) – what the voicemail standards are! In some offices, I had to follow a certain structure so that the message reflected the image the organization wanted to portray. In another, a disclaimer was required so clients knew if they left rambling messages about their cases, it could be discoverable and have to be turned over to opposing counsel.

      And for email signatures and out of office messages too! There are a lot of things to learn and being the one who is cute or quirky in their phone or email practices is not the best way to make a positive impression in most fields.

    4. Manfred Longshanks*

      In my first job, I had to ask my manager how to use the phone in the first place. My family hadn’t had a phone with a cord on it since before I was old enough to be using a phone, so I had only ever used cordless landlines or mobile phones. If anyone reading this is managing Gen Z employees, bear this in mind!

      Interestingly, I had heard enough people be professional on the phone that I didn’t need to be taught that part.

  48. Lizzie*

    Oh wow. So many things! I started working back in the dinosaur age when smoking in the building, albeit in one’s private office, not in common spaces, was acceptable and allowed, and typewriters were the norm.

    I think for me, it was mainly being more independent and not asking about every little thing I could, should, or should not be doing! And oversharing. I cringe to think how much I did that in my younger days! Including why I needed time off for being sick, which I felt guilty about every darn time! Now? I just email my bosses “I’m not feeling well, taking a sick day” and leave it at that.

    A lot of what other’s have said; calling bosses by their first name, making sure you give plenty of notice to take more than a day or so off. And, having learned this by watching a new co-worker at my first job, IF you are hired and have time off planned, mention it then, NOT the Friday before you’ll be off for a week! They let her but weren’t happy about it.

  49. Hanani*

    I know I’m repeating some, and the answers will vary from office-to-office:

    – what to call your colleagues vs your boss
    – how to schedule meetings (find an opening on the calendar? Email? Chat program? Call?)
    – are you meant to wait on direction or start something proactively? In many (most?) workplaces, the expectation is that you don’t just sit there until someone gives you direction.
    – phone and email norms: is there a standard way of answering the phone? Is there a standard email signature? Do people treat emails more like letters or more like chats?
    – being overly formal is generally better than being overly informal, but too much formality can cause distance and awkward working relationships
    – dress, and what business casual means (I’m in higher ed, for example, and clean, neat jeans are often totally fine – but it depends on the job and the institution)

  50. ResearcHER*

    *If you are not an essential worker,* do not risk your personal safety by coming to the office during extreme weather.

    Perhaps you will need to take PTO, or will lose wages for the day, but your personal safety is always first priority.

    Even essential employees typically have very clear protocols for who needs to report to work and when during weather emergencies. If this does not apply to you, please feel empowered to call/text/email with a message that you’ll need to stay home because conditions are unsafe for you.

    1. Tuesday*

      I agree with this in theory, but in practice you will look very unreliable calling in every time it snows or whatever. Maybe this makes more sense in places where severe weather is uncommon.

      1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        And it can depend on the company. I mentioned Face Time below. It turns out that “showing your dedication” in travelling to the office through snow was noted by management. At a later company that had thousands of people on the plant site, the management was very quick to declare snow days. They didn’t want a large number of employees ending up in accidents.

        1. Tuesday*

          We just had this come up this week due to snow in our area and it was infuriating. Three employees were allowed to work remote, but it was first come first serve – the rest of us had to come in because “it looks bad” if we don’t. I think employees getting into accidents due to weather also “looks bad,” but they didn’t ask me!

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        I think those of us who live in these places just define “extreme weather” differently. The snow I see falling today isn’t enough to keep people off the road. But I have seen snow that is impossible to travel in.

      3. ResearcHER*

        Sure. There is a difference between “I should allow more travel time/should dress for strong rain/snow/etc, and may be inconvenienced” vs. Extreme Conditions.

        Do not attempt to drive when you cannot see the road, etc. Your employer will not replace your car, pay for damages, and certainly cannot replace your life. Perhaps you can arrive late, or leave early to avoid hazards. But if conditions are extreme, please be empowered to politely, but matter-of-factly, prioritize your personal safety.

      4. rubble*

        in places where it snows regularly I don’t think normal snow counts as extreme weather. but a blizzard probably would.

    2. Lacey*

      Yes! I had a friend who risked her life driving 8 hours in a snowstorm to be home for her shift the next day. And of course the business was closed anyway, but she didn’t realize she could just tell them the weather was too bad for her to make it even if they had been open.

      1. Presea*

        I feel like “never risk your life to get to work/not be late” needs to be explicitly stated more often and be more of a Thing. That and “never endanger yourself for work in general (unless that’s an explicit expectation of your job that has a good reason to exist)”. Obviously as long as work is tied to survival the way it is there are going to be people desperate enough to take the risk anyway, but it’s horrifying to me that your friend simply didn’t realize she had options! I’m glad she made it through okay in the end.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      I worked at a place and it snowed so much that schools were closed and my little car couldn’t get out of our driveway. I called and told them I couldn’t get in. The owner called back a little bit later and said one of their high school kids who didn’t have school would come and give me a ride to work.

      So… this definitely varies!

    4. Somehow_I_Manage*

      This was the first paradigm shift for me. It’s a shock after coming from 16+ years of somebody else being responsible for that kind of decision (e.g., school is closed/delayed). Part of being professional is you are given trust that you’ll exercise good judgement.

      Turns out, that theme exists throughout the workplace. You are the steward of your career. You may be lucky to have some good managers and mentors along the way, but it’s up to you to take the lead in shaping your path.

    5. Our Mr Wilson*

      I started my first job in February and a week or two in, I showed up to work even though it was snowing and only getting snowier. My boss and other team members didn’t come, but nobody told me I didn’t have to. I sat in the office for several hours until someone I knew showed up and was surprised to see me and told me I could leave. I might be different with hybrid/ remote work now, but even at that time, you could stay home if you needed and there wouldn’t be an official announcement.

    6. DawnShadow*

      When I started my first professional job, there was a morning where the freezing rain was so bad I did a 180 in my parking lot and took that as a sign that I should go right back in my parking stall. I called in, was told that I would have to take a day without pay and it would look bad. I said “okay” and hung up. The next day I found out that my coworker tried to make it in, had to abandon her car on the exit ramp, walked the rest of the way in to work, and when her boyfriend picked her up at the end of her shift they went to where she’d left her car and it was gone! The city had towed it. She ended up paying more to get it back than she made that day at work. Boy was she steamed. Looking back I guess I was the one who was “unprofessional,” but honestly either of us could have ended up dead. I have to agree with your statement.

      1. Chirpy*

        A few years ago, I blew out two tires trying to make it into work during extreme severe weather because the manager said he expected us in even though he wasn’t going to make it himself. It cost me nearly a week’s pay to fix….I wish I had just said “no, this is insane” and called in without trying first.

    7. Lisa Simpson*

      One of my coworkers almost got hit by a light-rail train walking into work at 4 am during a blizzard with thundersnow, because “a customer might come in!”

      Another one of my coworkers got trapped at work overnight because he wasn’t allowed to go home early, during a blizzard.

      A third was not allowed to go home early, went out to her car, had to crawl across the parking lot to her car, and when she got there, found it caked in a half inch of ice. She had to smash the ice off the car sitting on the ice because the ground was too slippery.

      This does not apply in all jobs.

      1. Merrie*

        Exjob was at a medical facility that was decidedly not an emergency facility, but my boss and his boss still said that we should come to work in a level 3 snow emergency, but if we couldn’t make it in then so be it, but it would count as an occurrence. So we would go in and nobody would be there, because nobody should be traveling unless it’s an emergency, and if it is they should just go to the hospital. I miss that place not at all. Now I work in an actual hospital, so it’s legit that they expect us to come in if we possibly can, or hold us over.

  51. Stevesie*

    That you should not use work email or IM for anything you wouldn’t mind your boss/HR/a court hearing. IT people and management can search those records whenever they feel like it. When I type out a snarky message I think of the “Brian’s Hat” sketch of I Think You Should Leave.

    2. Warrior Princess Xena*

      If anyone wants a really fascinating example of this, a big chunk the of the Enron email database during and post the dissolution of the company is publically available. One of my data profs downloaded the lot and proceeded to use it as an example of using data tools to search for fraud for the next while. Most entertaining thing we found was an employee who wrote a VERY snarky poem about the BS senior management was shovelling during the last few months of its existance.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        The Enron data set was used as demo data for software products in my industry for a really long time, and what it is in it is just appalling – photos of people’s kids, really racist “joke” email, coordination of affair rendezvouses, porn, you name it. I have been telling everyone I know for years DO NOT USE YOUR WORK EMAIL FOR PERSONAL STUFF. Or someone like me will end up looking at it.

    3. Wolverine would be best possible ESA*

      For those in the public sector, anything in your work email and Teams/Slack messages is public record and can be requested via a Freedom of Information Act request. I’m very careful to only use my work email for work related matters and avoid using it for personal matters. I get the sense that my mindset is the exception rather than the norm at least in my office.

  52. Not A Real Manager*

    Obviously it varies from company to company, but moving from highly scheduled positions to salary, I now tell my manager what my plans are versus asking permission to schedule something non-work related.

    Example: I have to head out early today for a doctor’s appointment.

    At my company as long as you’re getting your work done and are generally available during working hours I am treated like and adult. It’s great!

    1. allathian*

      And even saying “doctor’s appointment” can be TMI. We have flex time, and I can basically just schedule my appointments any way I want as long as I attend any meetings I’ve agreed to attend. I’d never dream of telling my manager or coworkers that I have a doctor’s appointment. I might mention it afterwards if it’s somehow visible, i.e. if I’ve gone to the dentist and have a meeting afterwards before all the numbness has worn off.

  53. Miss Muffet*

    When I started at my first cubicle-job I would take the paper in to read at my desk occasionally (like we all pop in on the web throughout the day now, but this was early days of internet) and my coach had to explain that it is just bad optics. My very first job out of college, when I was a receptionist in a downtown high rise, I had a kind colleague explain that my very collegy backpack should probably be upgraded for something more professional, too. Some of the smaller growing pains, but I was still grateful for someone telling me nicely and privately to make a change!

  54. Llama Event Planner*

    I don’t know if this really counts to corporate world, but when I was managing at a bank one thing I noticed many of our part timer, college student tellers had a hard time with was the schedule. Like not being able to just show up for an hour b/c they had some free time today or a class got cancelled and get extra hours that way.

    The other thing we had to coach them on a lot was business casual dress. One girl came in a dress she was planning on wearing to the club later and just threw a small, thin cardigan over it and figured it would be okay.

    1. Llama Event Planner*

      Just remembered another one – coaching the new employees on how salaries/promotions worked (at the bank and at current company). Many of them seemed surprised/shocked vs the idea they had in their head from TV shows and movies. Or the ideal how it should be vs this the reality of how it works here.

      You don’t bust into your boss’ office and deliver ultimatums on how much of a raise you want or hours you’ll work or you’ll quit. At this place, they’ll call that bluff and let you go.

    2. cardigarden*

      I used to volunteer as a mock interviewer with the local college’s career center where they had a dress code for the interviews, but it was poorly communicated (“all black and wear a blazer”). While being cognizant of the fact that students are on a budget and usually limited by what they had on campus with them, there was at least one per semester where I had to make sure they understood that one should err on the conservative side for interviews and the outfit they arrived in was more appropriate for date night.

    3. World Weary*

      This is a corollary to the work friends thing above. You may actively dislike some of your coworkers and they may dislike you. It’s okay as long as you are civil/cordial and can work together. You don’t have to go to lunch with them or hang out together.

  55. UKgreen*

    I’m in my 40s, so was at university (in the UK) in the late 90s. Printing / photocopying was 10 pence a sheet in our IT room or libraries, and it took me a LONG time when I started working in office environments to realise that I did not have to scrimp and save on every last sheet of paper and that it was actually OK to print stuff off.

    Fast forward to now and we’re back to that for environmental, not cost reasons, but I’m still astonished at how much spews out the big printer every day that never gets picked up or gets read once and chucked straight in the bin :(

    1. LabMan*

      My father, when he was promoted to a sufficiently high level of management back in the mid-1980s, fought a long and hard battle to end the tracking of expenses for printing and copying at his office: “But people will just print and copy whatever they want!” “Is that a problem?” “It will cost a fortune!” “Our budget for printing and copying is less than 0.1% of our overall budget. I think we will be fine if someone abuses the system and runs off 50 flyers for their kid’s scout troop or something.” It took *years*, but he finally got all tracking of such things removed. Miraculously, abuses of the system remained negligible, and the organization was not rendered insolvent through Xerox abuse.

    2. amoeba*

      This is why we have “follow me printers”! We can submit the printing job to the network, but it only prints out once you scan your badge (on any machine in the network, although in practice there’s only one on my corridor). So if you submit a printing job and then forget about it, it never actually gets printed.

  56. No Tribble At All*

    Ooh, another one. In an office job, most of the time it’s not like homework/chores in that once you’ve completed the list, you’re done for the rest of the day. I had a boss gently explain that to me, that there’s always more you can work on –training, process improvement, etc. “When in doubt, sweep” if you were in a store. It’s expected that you’ll look for things you can do on your own — just check in with your boss later. “Boss, I’m going to do X Y Z” is a lot better than “Boss, I’m bored, what should I do?”

    (This is a Your Mileage May Vary sort of advice. Some jobs are more structured than others, but the general idea of “how can I help the team work better” is usually applicable)

    1. Jenthar the Destroyer*

      YES! This is probably my number one “complaint” about most of the juniors I’ve ever had! We hired you for a REASON! We’re SLAMMED! We need HELP!

      That said. I was the mandated contract employee at a government agency once, that wasn’t really needed but had to be hired because the 3 month position had been created. I dutifully finished every task assigned to me quickly and efficiently and pestered my supervisor for more to do and eventually she very kindly told me that it was more work than help for her to keep finding me work to do, so if I could kindly take the “slug” approach to this next assignment, she would be grateful.

      So I guess it is about knowing your company/role/team.

  57. Antilles*

    Always, always, always let relevant people know in advance if you think you might miss a deadline.
    If you let your boss or the project manager or whoever know early, they can often find a way to work it out by bringing in another staffer to help, helping you prioritize, or something. Or (surprisingly often) they’ll just ask you when you can get it done and be fine with your new deadline.
    But if they only find out that you’re missing the deadline when you’ve actually missed it, then it’s a much bigger deal…and it looks much worse for you.

    1. JoeyJoeJoe*

      Yes! This is true if you are going to be late for a meeting too. I have noticed some of my newer reports seem to think being late for a virtual meeting is less of a big deal as compared to an in-person was. Usually being late is fine, but you absolutely need to let me know!

    2. June*

      This! I have had people report to me who either tell me only at the last minute that a project will be late (at which point it is too late for me to manage expectations with the people relying on that deliverable), or they work super long and unreasonable hours trying to get something done on time. I have had to coach them to just tell me if they won’t make the deadline. 95% of the time this isn’t the end of the world. It can help me plan, manage expectations, and help me make sure the right level of staff is on a project or ensure more time is given next time, if possible.

      I had to learn this in my own work, too, and it dramatically lowered my stress level. Most deadlines (depends on your job and industry) are not hard dates and are made up and people would rather you deliver it a week later but be told in advance, then for you to be 1 day late but not tell them that until the last minute. Now, all the time, someone might email me, can you do this by December 1st? And I’ll reply, I am managing a couple different priorities, how flexible is this – I can guarantee it by December 7th no problem but will see what I can do about earlier. 90% of the time they’re like awesome, December 7th is fine. And now I have a reputation for always keeping people in the loop with project status and meeting the timeliness I commit to AND I get extra time and less stress than if I just took everyone’s suggested dates as hard dates. So many of my peers just endlessly work overtime towards impossible dates for no reason and leave our internal/external clients annoyed when things aren’t on time.

    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      Yes, yes, yes. We cover this in orientation because missing deadlines in what we do has serious, usually external consequences. If you’re not going to make it, we need a heads up well before deadline to bring in reinforcements or negotiate an extension.

  58. BossyPants*

    At my first salary job, I thought I should work around my boss’s schedule to look like the committed worker I definitely was. I tried to arrive before they did and was upset if they saw me walk in, and waited to leave until after they did. A kind supervisor frequently told me “you can leave” before I figured it out. They handled it well but I’m sure that was annoying. Now I tell new hires up front because I prefer to work late and it’s definitely not an expectation.

    Also you don’t need to inform me every time you leave your desk. I don’t care if you are going to the bathroom or grabbing a drink of water or stepping out for a few minutes. Just go. And if you needed a longer bathroom break – DEFINITELY don’t tell me.

    1. TigerPants*

      I had an opposite arrival/departure time issue at one of my first real jobs post grad school. I had (it later turned out) a terrible, work-avoiding boss who kept 10a-4p hours. No one ever told me what my work hours were, so I worked 9a-5p. I’d been thinking coming in earlier than Boss and leaving later showed how keen I was – until I called into Grand boss’ office to be told I was expected to arrive by 8a daily. Still cringe thinking that it never occurred to me to just ask what my work hours were when I first wondered about it!

      1. Michelle Smith*

        I’m cringing wondering why it never occurred to anyone involved in the hiring process to tell you your work hours at any point including onboarding. Definitely go easy on yourself. You shouldn’t have had to ask.

  59. old curmudgeon*

    I wish someone had pulled me aside and explained the concept of bullet points to me early in my career.

    I tend to go overboard in preparing comprehensive and thorough explanations of situations – my emails have been referred to as a thesis or a monograph by some folks – and it is really, really hard to pare my thoughts down to a few bullet points that hit the highlights of what needs to be said. Unfortunately, I’ve also learned the hard way that people just won’t read anything past about the first couple of sentences, so I have been forced to learn a more succinct style of communication. It just would have been nice to find out that is generally the preferred style a little earlier in my career.

    The other thing that I think should be made really clear to anyone new to the workforce is something my grand-boss often says: “never, ever put anything into an email that you wouldn’t want to see published in the New York Times.” Which can be translated to “think twice before you hit send,” but I think my grand-boss’s version is a bit more clear and direct.

    1. old curmudgeon*

      Oh, one other grand-bossism that I like is “I’m telling you this now before you hear it out on the street,” usually when delivering unwelcome news. Her point is that she always wants to be the first one to deliver bad news, both so that it doesn’t look like anyone is hiding anything and so that immediate action can be taken to remedy the situation to whatever extent is possible.

    2. Anon for This*

      I had a job where two of my co-workers’ emails did appear in the New York Times. It’s amazing how bad that looks, even for something innocuous.

    3. Warrior Princess Xena*

      This reminds me of studying for the essay portion of my certification exam (CPA). We had to write a business memo on a topic (reasonable) with a highly specific format (annoying because they didn’t provide any kind of example and you had to memorize) using no bullet points.

      I do not remember the last time I wrote a long email without bullet points. Bullet points are my life.

    4. ferrina*

      Brevity is gold.

      I’m loquacious by nature, and I thought more words made me look smarter. Now I’m constantly trying to use less words.

    5. llama groomer extraordinaire*

      BLUF – bottom line up front. Eight paragraphs on something with a recommendation in there gets ignored. An email of “The llama groomers won’t be able to meet the deadline” followed by a more detailed explanation is better, since then if someone needs clarification or elaboration it’s there, but if all they need is the fact that the llama groomers won’t meet the deadline, they can skim that and move on.

  60. Morgan Proctor*

    It took me at least a full decade to not feel horrendously guilty every time I needed to take a sick day. Even if I’d had someone sit me down and tell me, “You can just say you’re taking a sick day and offer no additional details and that’s that,” I still would have felt really, really bad about it. For me, that was one that only time and experience and no longer giving a crap could solve.

    I’ve never, ever had any kind of job where anyone addressed anyone by anything other than their first names. Even in academia, no one addressed anyone as “Doctor” so-and-so. Even when I was a student I called my professors by their first names, in both undergrad and grad. What are these industries where people expect their peers to call them Mr./Ms. or their titles?

    2. Excel-sior*

      This is perhaps the most important thing to learn, not just for the office but for all of adult life.

      Although i once worked with a chap with whom there was a long standing agreement preceding my time there; he wouldn’t make anybody else a tea, but would also never have someone else make one for him. Really nice guy, got on well with everyone, but just did not want to be part of the grand old traditions of office tea making.

      1. londonedit*

        That’s what I always say when I start a new job – I don’t drink tea (don’t tell anyone or they’ll take away my British passport) so I’m happy not to be included in the tea rounds. It’s much easier than weeks of people asking ‘Tea? No? Really? Do you not drink tea at all, or…?’

  62. It's Marie - Not Maria*

    I know these won’t be popular observations.
    I’ve been in the workforce for a long time, so anything from my own experience would not be relevant. I am in HR, so I can share some things our new Team Members seem to struggle with:
    1. They are expected to show up to work as scheduled, and work their full shifts once they get to work.
    2. They can’t just take a break or a lunch whenever they feel like it, due to the need for client coverage (we are a call center).
    3. They usually are not going to get promoted/get a raise in the first 90 days of their employment.
    4. They can’t swear or use street talk when they are talking to our clients.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Interestingly, these are the kinds of jobs where office work norms do intersect with shift work (like retail & food service) norms.

    2. Fishsticks*

      Every one of those seems like it can be easily laid out upfront before the job even begins, especially anything that might happen within the first 90 days of employment, except for the last one. If someone hiring me told me I couldn’t swear, for sure, i get that, but I would have no idea what “street talk” means.

      1. Michelle Smith*

        It’s a relatively common term that means slang rather than more formal language. If they were actually speaking to the new hire and the new hire was confused as to what that meant, I’m sure they’d explain. You can definitely use talk that is too casual without swearing. For example, saying “Yo, what’s up?” is not an appropriate way to answer a call. You shouldn’t email a client and say “Heyyy sorry, something came up, can we reschedule? LOL!” These are stupid examples, but do you see what I mean about inappropriate regardless of the absence of swears?

    3. ferrina*

      The promotion one gets me. I’ve worked with some people who expected to get a promotion every other year. Or the “I’m doing everything on my job description- I deserve a promotion!” Um, no, doing your job is why you get a pay check, not a promotion.

      1. Fishsticks*

        I’ve had a lot of job interviews where the possibility of a 90-day wage increase was heavily dangled and all but promised. I never believed it, but I can see if someone is coming from jobs where that happened, that they might think it would happen again.

        Promotions, though… that’s a bit baffling.

      2. Magenta*

        Our smallish British company was bought by a much bigger American one, we are part of the wider company and departments were absorbed into the wider company. So operations people are part of the wider operations structure, sales have the same reporting line no matter what part of the wider firm they are selling for etc. but we all still need to work together as one business unit. Previously we had functional titles, like project manager, head of research, data analyst etc, but they brought in job level titles and spent ages aligning them across the wider business.
        Oh My Goodness! The drama this caused, previously we had very little hierarchy and no one cared about status, just getting the job done. Afterwards people in operations were really put out because people in client services and sales had inflated job levels to impress the clients, people in sales thought they could boss around people in other departments who had way more experience and responsibility than them because they had a lesser job level. It was awful.
        Years later it has calmed down a bit, but some people are still really resentful. There is a rule that you are only eligible for a job level promotion every other year. It is literally a title bump, it comes with no extra money at all, but some people expect a “promotion” every other year and get really, really put out if it doesn’t happen.

  63. cmcinnyc*

    My job went from hourly wages to salaried. This was not a promotion–it was a way for the company to stop paying overtime. Those of us in this job were then simultaneously expected to act like hourly workers (getting coverage for the phone by trading lunch times, using PTO if we needed an hour here or there during a work day) AND salaried workers (available on the weekend/after hours/at 6am). It has never resolved, and I’ve landed on continuing to do my 9-5 with strict boundaries and getting coverage/using an hour of PTO when I have an appointment/etc. Those who don’t set boundaries like this burn out because they a) work all hours like a salaried person, but b) don’t have the flexibility to go see their child’s holiday show in the middle of the afternoon without getting coverage/using PTO. Knowing these lines and navigating them for myself is something I definitely had no clue about, and from the way many coworkers get tripped up (being salaried does not actually mean you can come and go as you please, either), I think a lot of people flounder with this.

    1. President Porpoise*

      Along these lines, it is really important for you to find out the employment laws for your jurisdiction and figure out how they apply to you. Hourly caps, paid breaks, salary/exempt, everything in the FLSA, etc. – you need to know what you’re entitled to and what your employer is prohibited from doing so you can protect yourself. The employer will (often) take advantage of your ignorance if it can, and you cannot ever count on anyone else standing up for you.

      cmcinnyc – they’re probably (almost certainly) misclassifying you as exempt and they may owe you money. You should pursue this if you feel safe and able to do so. IANAL.

  64. Tuesday*

    Embarrassing, but I had no idea that “the 9-5” did not include lunch. I was taking hourlong lunches with my coworkers every day and still leaving right at 5! We all came in at different times so no one noticed I was working an hour less per day than everyone else. I was mortified when I found out!

      1. Boopnash*

        yeah this confuses me, my employee handbook literally says our base hours are 9-5 to include a lunch break “no more” than an hour. I’m government though, everyone leaves on time.

        1. Tuesday*

          I suppose in some places it might include lunch, but the places I’ve worked have been clear that you need to be working for 8 hours a day – lunches and other breaks are unpaid (but often still mandatory, which is infuriating).

          1. Mill Miker*

            Yeah, I’ve worked a lot of places that were salaried, with no extra pay for overtime, and it was still very much expected that you at least work from 8:30am until 5:00pm and that the half hour for lunch was, somehow, explicitly unpaid.

      2. doreen*

        And it still does in some places – I never had a job where I worked 8 hours plus lunch. I always worked either 7 or 7.5 hours with an 30 minute or one hour lunch. I don’t know if that’s standard for my area or just a coincidence that literally all my jobs were that way.

        1. Common Taters on the Ax*

          In the US, this varies by region and also, of course, job-to-job. In much of the northeast, I think it’s by law no more than 7.5 hours. I’m in the South, and I think 8 hours plus lunch is more common here, or at least that’s been the expectation for every job I’ve had (with the possible exception of one county job). But I know some people do have 7.5 plus lunch.

      3. Fishsticks*

        It did. Like many things, it was something older Greatest Gen and early Boomers received that was promptly removed for those who came after them.

      4. I should really pick a name*

        Actually, I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone use the term 9-5 when it didn’t actually mean 9-5.

        1. Tuesday*

          I think it’s used as a colloquialism for a full-time job a lot – “heading to my 9-5!” – but in reality it’s more like 8-5 in a lot of places.

    2. londonedit*

      It does here in the UK (at least in my experience in nearly 20 years of office jobs), but lunch is usually unpaid. Our working hours are 9-5:30 with an hour’s unpaid lunch (standard full-time in the UK is 35 or 37.5 hours a week).

    6. June*

      Eh, this isn’t universal. I work 9-5 and take an hour lunch. No one cares as long as my work is done (I’m salaried). The culture on this varies company to company, and even among individual managers.

      1. Tuesday*

        Sure, but it’s definitely something to get clear on when you start a new job and not just assume!

    7. Manfred Longshanks*

      This happened to me too. Nobody mentioned that my lunch break was unpaid – it’s there if you look up employment legislation on the government’s website, but I needed to be explicitly told that I had to stay half an hour later if I took a lunch break. Obviously, I started eating at my desk so I could keep leaving at what had by then become my “normal” home time.

  65. Thistle Pie*

    I’ve worked at non-profit, private, and government organizations and definitely did not realize how different they all would be at the beginning of my career. Some things that fly at a start up absolutely do not translate to government work.

    – Make up at work needs to be toned down a lot. I hung out with a lot of punks so my college intern make up that I thought was tame was not work appropriate for my small non-profit job but would have been totally fine at the start up I worked at later
    – Watermarking documents with DRAFT is really important in government work, since it hasn’t been approved yet by a government entity. Also just how directly the Freedom of Information Act affects your work.
    – Don’t participate in any gossip where you say anything about a coworker that you wouldn’t want that coworker to hear directly from you. This is a good general practice anyways but I didn’t realize just how gossipy some workplaces are
    – How to make boobs workplace appropriate. There isn’t a perfect way (and so much of it shouldn’t have to be done) but it definitely took a long time to figure out what worked

    1. *OOF**

      Yes, the make-up!! I spent my paychecks on so much bright, crazy lipstick at my first job—and wore it to work! Still cringe thinking about the time I wore green lipstick and a vampy smoky eye.

      1. Thistle Pie*

        I had a hot pink lipstick that I justified as being work appropriate because it wasn’t black. My boss remarked in a meeting “I’m sorry, I’m having trouble focusing because I keep staring at Thistle Pie’s lipstick”. I was mortified and never wore it to work again.

  66. Khatul Madame*

    In a slightly different vein… I immigrated to the States as an adult with a few years of professional experience, and adjusting to the American work norms was a challenge.

    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      Going from the UK work culture to the US work culture was fascinating to me. I found that to get a job in the US, you often have to self-promote and go on about how great you are much more than you would in the UK. (British people are generally bad at that type of thing, so I found it difficult.) And the amount of hugging that went on in West Coast nonprofit culture was initially very weird to me. The first time I was ever hugged by a colleague, my Britishness was internally screaming “WTF are you DOING??”

      1. TechWorker*

        Looool this is giving me flashbacks to when an American colleague came to visit our office. Now our office is very informal in some ways – people hang out outside of work, socials can be fairly boozy, people wear socks around the office or gym gear if they’re waiting for the shower. But we do not hug.

        American colleague comes to visit and hugs everyone, including the senior director. Never seen such an awkward series of hugs :)

      2. Madame Arcati*

        I have not worked in the US but I see this from the AAM world – enthusiastic self promotion seems to be the thing (I’m not saying it’s wrong – I daresay we Brits hide our light under a bushel a bit much!) and also more emotive language is used – I have seen Alison’s recommendations re covering letters include the expression of excitement, and I am sure passionate comes up a lot, whereas in many Brit contexts that would be a bit much – “I’m really excited to work in Widgetex Ltd as I’m so passionate about widgets” are more likely to elicit a response of “steady on old chap” than an immediate job offer. Unless you are a candidate on the Apprentice and let’s be honest those people are not normal!
        In fact my advice on office norms is do not act in any way like a candidate on the Apprentice. I’ll make an exception for much of their polished appearance/clothes if your office is a smart one, but I’ll take a bit back for the amount of makeup – trowelling it on is not too professional unless you are in theatre or maybe an airline.

  67. KittenLittle*

    When I was in my twenties, one of my male coworkers would ask me for help and follow behind me, placing his hand on the small of my back. I’m socially awkward and had never worked in an office before and just figured this was how normal people behaved. Little did I know this is terribly inappropriate!

  68. CSRoadWarrior*

    This didn’t surprise me as much as I had to learn from it. But 6 years ago, at a temp-to-hire job, one of the higher ups got frustrated at me after a mistake my boss made, to which my boss asked me to hand in her work since she worked remotely while the rest of us were in the office (keep in mind this was pre-COVID as well). I will admit I got a little bit mad after that mild confrontation, and I sent a mild 3 line email sounding a bit annoyed at my boss. Eventually everything worked out, but the higher up told me not to use that tone again, since it wasn’t professional. I haven’t sent an email with that kind of tone since, and I wouldn’t either. I know better now.

    Ironically, my boss was an abusive bully and I am surprised she did not retaliate after that email. But that is a story for another day.

    1. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Getting tone right in email (or written communication in general) is very challenging. People will tend to read far more into a negative than is actually meant.

      1. Excel-sior*

        Theres a training exercise i once came across where you get people to consider the phrase “i never said you stole the car”. Depending on where you put the emphasis, it takes on a different meaning and of you’re writing an email, you can’t be sure that the reader will place the emphasis where you want to. I always think about that when writing an email (especially to someone i don’t know well) to try and makr sure what i write can’t be taken in the wrong context.

        1. Magenta*

          The one I know is:
          “I never said you stole that money”
          It is a really useful exercise and I still get my teams to play it every now and then.

  69. Irish Teacher.*

    When it’s OK to leave the premises. When I started out teaching, I felt awkward and as if I had to explain if I met the principal when I was leaving during the schoold day and last year, I heard a student teacher asking the deputy principal if it was OK to leave as he had no more classes that day.

    Who to contact if you are calling in sick.

  70. Erin25*

    Young women in my office seem to really struggle with professional attire, which is understandable because business attire is very straightforward for masculine-presenting people but not straightforward for feminine-presenting people. A lot of retailers and advertisers style skimpy, revealing clothing as officewear and a lot of young women just dress the way retailers/advertisers show.

    I’d give these tips:
    – Your underwear (including your bra straps) and your midriff should never be visible
    – It’s better if your cleavage is never visible either although this can be challenging for some body types, but err on the side of covering as much as possible
    – It’s fine to look feminine and wear form-fitting clothes but deliberately sexy is not a good look for the office
    – Open toed shoes are not appropriate in every office, but if they are allowed in yours, make sure your feet are well groomed
    – A lot of people will not consider it appropriate to show up for work with wet hair, so if you are a morning shower person, definitely make sure your hair is dry at least for the first few months of your job until you can judge whether wet hair is okay

    2. It's Marie - Not Maria*

      And to flip the narrative:
      – Everyone should be appropriately groomed, and have bathed recently
      – We don’t want to see male underwear either or your butt crack for that matter
      – Biker shorts or skintight skinny jeans on any gender are usually not office appropriate
      – You should not come in to work smelling like booze or marijuana. I don’t care if recreational pot is legal in the state. Most people don’t want to smell it.

      1. Mid*

        I like a good “no smells should linger” rule—no heavily scented products, no recreational substances, your scent shouldn’t fill a room or stay behind when you leave.

        2. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          This. I’m allergic to most artificial perfumes and fragranced personal care products.

          If someone comes in to my area wearing a scented deodorant or a shirt dried with a scented dryer sheet, I may not smell it (in fact I usually don’t) but I will start coughing. Don’t use those odor maskers in bathrooms, I like being able to breathe while I pee.

      2. Erin25*

        For sure there are dress and grooming norms that apply for all genders! But the prompt was about norms that surprised you when you were starting out, and the professional dress questions that I see in my workplace are exclusively young feminine-presenting women.

      3. amoeba*

        Huh, skinny jeans in neutral colours would be one of my absolute standards for (more casual, sure) business casual/kind of nice looking office looks. I feel like more modern styles like mom or boyfriend jeans would be much more casual, while a black skinny is just… classic and basically “invisible”?

    3. Mid*

      The further issue is there are so many unwritten rules as to what makes something “sexy” versus work appropriate. Clothing material, cut, how fitted something is, slits, accents on clothing, accessories, etc.

      My “going out” shoes have a lower heel than my “work heels” do. Blazers and pencil accentuate my body more than some of my “party clothes” do. It’s such a weird line, and so much of it is hard to actually define verbally, it’s a lot of “I know it when I see it” (except as a newbie to the work world, you don’t always see it.”

      (I’m not a woman but am AFAB.)

      **General rules I’ve found to help:**

      -Stay away from shiny (satin-y material, rhinestones, shimmery fabrics, etc can all sometimes work in an office but are much more challenging and can easily be read as clubby or unprofessional. When you’re starting out, it’s easier to skip them until you have a better sense of your office dress.)

      -When in doubt, size up (too tight is likely to read as less professional and more party compared to too loose, which can look frumpy but in offices, frumpy is usually preferable to party)

      -One “revealing” item of clothing at most per outfit (so if your shirt is lower cut, make sure you have on pants or a longer skirt or add tights, if your skirt or pants are very fitted and tight, wear a looser top, and revealing doesn’t just mean skin but also tightness and sheerness of clothing items)

      -A black blazer can make anything look more professional and can change an outfit from casual to professional (get one tailored if you can! It really helps)

      -One “statement piece” at most (a bold necklace means boring shirt and subtle other jewelry, a loud patterned top means neutral colored everything else, etc.)

      Again, these are just super rough rules that are guidelines when you have no clue how to dress in an office. They’ll usually end up with you being appropriate, if on the boring side. When you’re new, it’s better to not stand out for your clothing choices.

      1. Mid*

        And lest anyone think I’m a fuddy-duddy who wants everyone to look boring and wear pantyhose, I assure you I’m not. I

        1. Mid*

          I pressed submit too early.

          I’m visibly queer, heavily pierced and tattooed, have neon colored hair, and work in the legal field.

          But, I’ve learned how to strike a balance in my appearance, and also know that because of how I look, I have to act extra professional and polished, because in a conservative industry, people will have assumptions about me based on my style choices. It’s a trade off I’m happy to make, but one I suggest people wait a few years before embracing, so they can have a fuller understanding of how having an “alternative look” impacts them in their industry. In some industries, no one would bat an eyelash at how I look. In others, I would struggle to be hired.

          Is it fair? No. But it is reality. So, when in doubt, dress on the boring side until you know what the not-boring side means.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Of all strange things, the LDS church website with dress codes for female missionaries is actually a fairly decent reference for business attire that isn’t the full formal suit level.

      Anytime I say that people don’t believe me, but then they google it and are surprised. I promise. LDS don’t even require pantyhose for female missionaries anymore.

      1. Gigi*

        Thank you for the very specific advice! I just googled it myself, and You’re right, the LDS website is a really good jumping off point for business casual.

    5. Zounds*

      There’s an inherent tension here because to some extent the culture demands that we mentally equate “feminine” with “sexy”. It is a constant struggle to create space for people to separate the two.

    6. Alex*

      I have heard of, but never understood the thing against wet hair. As a long haired person who’s hair takes FOREVER to dry, it was always frustrating to feel like I couldn’t work out in the morning and shower before work, because blow-drying my hair with those little locker room dryers would take literally 45 minutes. It might be different for more conservative industries, but I ended up usually blow-drying the top/front, and putting the rest in a braid or bun. No one ever seemed to have an issue with that.

      1. TechWorker*

        I put mine straight into a plait and no-one has ever given a shit. But I also work in the type of workplace where a glimpse of bra strap probably won’t cause anyone to faint.

  71. I should really pick a name*

    The thing is, I don’t think you need to worry too much about what they “should” know.
    Address corrections as needed, and pay attention to whether the correction is retained or not. Assume mistakes are due to inexperience until proven otherwise.

    You don’t need to overload them with a laundry list of norms immediately when they start. It would be harder to retain all of that compared to individual lessons as needed.

  72. katre*

    I just mentioned this in a reply, but wanted to make the point more widely: on my team we have a shared “Team Expectations” document that everyone is shown when they join.

    It lists things like:
    – What hours people typically work, and how you should pick yours (we’re white collar office workers, spread over five time zones).
    – How responsive you should be to email/chat both during and outside office hours
    – When you should or should not work from home
    – What to do if you’re taking a sick day
    – That we want to be inclusive, and so that means being kind, checking people’s preferred pronouns, and avoiding gender-specific terms like “guys” when talking to a group

    None of this is carved in stone (well, except for the inclusivity bits), but it helps to get everyone aligned and makes many things explicit that otherwise would have to be assumed.

  73. A Penguin!*

    At some places optics matter more than results. I don’t think any boss will ever come out and say it of themselves, but it’s still true.

    Your boss doesn’t necessarily know how to do the details of your job. They (hopefully!) have enough understanding to judge how well you’re doing it, but they may not be good, or even capable, at the details of how it gets done.

    You call everyone by their first name regardless of position in the hierarchy. In fact, last names/titles are weird. I understand this isn’t universal, but it’s been my experience and I didn’t fully expect it.

    Start/end times are flexible at some companies. I went in assuming 8-5 was rigid and universal, and it’s neither.

    You sometimes have to ask for more work. I assumed at my first job that if I was relatively light on work it’s because the company didn’t have a lot for me at the time. Sometimes that was true, but sometimes it was because my boss didn’t actually know how much/little was on my plate. I’d argue that he should have known, but it still stands that he did not.

    Just because grandboss or another exec asks you to do something doesn’t inherently mean your boss knows about it, and you should loop them in just in case.

  74. JB*

    Nobody taught me telephone etiquette. I had to learn the “script.” Identify your office, then identify yourself, and if you need to pass a message make sure you have the other party’s name and contact info. I can think of several times I screwed this up as a young worker.

    Nowadays if I call a work number and all I get is a “Hello?” I immediately assume I’m dealing with a neanderthal.

    1. Mid*

      See, I don’t have a publicly available work phone number, and I explicitly don’t give my name unless I know who is calling, because phishing and scam calls are a problem.

      Now, when leaving a message, if you don’t leave your name and contact info, as well as who and why you’re calling, then you’re a monster.

    2. Project Problem Solver*

      That is…a really odd assumption to me. If you were to call me, you’d get “This is Project Problem Solver.” I deal with both internal calls and external calls from other companies, and they both get the same thing, I’m reassuring the person that they didn’t misdial, but if THEY call ME, they were trying to reach me.

      I don’t add where I work or what my title/department is because if they call me, they already know (having to have gotten my phone number from me or my email signature), or have called me in error.

    3. Merrie*

      Took my ex a while in his call center job to figure out that he needed to identify himself and his employer, and then ask for his party. Apparently a lot of guys get pissed off when some guy calls and asks for their wife/girlfriend without identifying himself. (Even that aside, it’s kind of presumptuous anyway.)

  75. Actuarymom*

    This may be obsolete, but my first office job had a coffee cart that would come through the building each morning, making stops in each department. Every morning, someone would pass by my cube and say “coffee cart is here” and I would reply “I don’t drink coffee.” It took me a few weeks to realize this was a social/informal work convo event that everyone participated in and I was missing out by not going (and there was juice, tea, etc. that I could get).

  76. Mid*

    How formal to make emails!

    I’ve worked in an office that did a full “Dear [Name]…..Sincerely [Sender Name]” for every email, even just quick internal ones, and one office where even messages to clients and the public could say “thx, [Initial].”

    In general, I try to reply using the same language I receive, and have found that “Hello [Name]….Thanks, [My Name]” is a good level of formality when you’re unsure of the email culture and don’t want to seem stiff.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      In an early job I had to be coached to make my emails to staff warmer and more friendly. In college I tried to be “professional” and it came across as very stiff and formal. I was totally shocked when my boss told me to start using smiley faces with certain people, but it definitely helped!

  77. Engineering Unicorn*

    One thing that a lot of new hires don’t realize at my office is that they need to have their email client open all the time as that’s how most communication is done and work is assigned.

    1. June*

      LOL we had an intern who only checked his email once per day, which we realized after a few weeks. He asked his boss if there was work he should be doing since he had nothing to do and he was like… I emailed you several assignments this morning? To which the intern was like, oh, I haven’t checked my email since yesterday.

  78. MaybeMaybeNot*

    That, despite talk of collaboration, problem-solving, and dialogue, the vast majority of leaders do not want any input from the hoi polloi.

    Oh and also, HR is rarely there to help.

  79. Escapee from Corporate Management*

    How much Face Time matters in some businesses. I was in a field where it was better to look busy at your desk until 7:00pm and show up some weekends, even if you had finished your work during the normal workday.

    Ever since, I have actively avoided any company/industry that even had a whiff of this nonsense.

    1. ferrina*

      And on the flip side, if they don’t see you working the overtime, they don’t know it’s happening. At one point early career, I had a really heavy workload and would get to work 1-2 hours before everyone else to get it all done. I would leave at about the same time as everyone else (maybe slightly later). My boss chided me for inflating my timesheet (no, I really was watching the sun rise from the office).

  80. Jenthar the Destroyer*

    Oh we have the juniors of my life over the years to thank for this list:

    – You may not work on your online master’s degree work during work hours, particularly if you haven’t asked your supervisor if they have anything they need you to do
    – You may not leave at 2 pm daily, because your puppy is lonely, without checking in with your supervisor and asking if they have anything they need you to do (so many of us intermediate people were so upset about this particular junior doing this as we had tiny children in daycare for 10+ hours per day that we desperately missed too, but since our junior disappeared, we had to finish their work too and stay later!!!)
    – Do not waltz around the company and discuss/mention to all the other entry level staff about any real or imagined connections you have with the management/owners/that you’re the nepotism hire or your family’s connections got you the job
    – Do not bring your foam roller to the office and roll out your back in the hallway/common area
    – Wash the office cutlery/plates/glasses that you use with SOAP and water
    – Field staff coming to the office – it’s fine to be dressed as field staff if you’re coming in to pick up/drop off or visit briefly; otherwise, dress for the office, including more formal dress for meeting with clients

    1. Robin Ellacott*

      The soap and water one!!

      We had a woman add sugar and milk to her tea, stir it, and then just drop the spoon right back in the drawer. All the other lunching folks were too shocked Pikachu to say anything.

      The next day in the lunchroom she told the table aggrievedly that she had mice in her apartment and there was a concerted group effort not to look at each other.

  81. hi there*

    I think it varies so much from company to company (the ones I’ve worked in, at least), so it’s usually really handy to explain the “chain of command” pretty clearly at the outset and expectations around checking various communication media (email, phone, chats, etc.) and needs (differences in asking to take some hours for a health appointment vs a mental health day vs a prolonged vacation). The place I work now is super democratic, while the place I came from before changed during my tenure into a much more rigid and hierarchical structure.

  82. Mehitabel*

    I can think of a couple that I’ve been fighting against for years:

    – Women are in charge of getting the coffee/arranging the food/cleaning up after meetings and events.

    – Single and childfree employees have to work longer hours to pick up the slack for parents who need to get home to their kids (I once had a [female] manager flat out tell me this once in so many words).

  83. Boopnash*

    Some of the workplace norms/rules I experienced in my early career I have thrown out the window as I’m now in a manager position, including:

    – listing recipients of an email in descending order of seniority (old government job)
    – getting written up for being 5 minutes late. The old computers took 5-10 minutes to boot up which meant I had to be at my desk 10 minutes early to be ready to work on time. I have a “make it when you can” mentality for the office now because LIFE HAPPENS, including PT staff, interns, anyone. Get your work done, it doesn’t matter.

    2. star*

      I definitely think about my recipient list ordering and who goes in To vs CC. But I do work for government!

      1. Captain Swan*

        Our email system lists alphabetically no matter what. Even if you use a group or a distro list. So we couldn’t list be seniority even if folks wanted us to.

  84. ZSD*

    -It’s expected that you’ll take restroom breaks throughout the day, and it’s okay to do so. At my first job, I used to TROT to and from the restroom because I thought being away from my desk for more than a couple minutes when it wasn’t lunchtime wasn’t okay.
    -Your state might mandate something like a 30-minute lunch and two 15-minute breaks, but those laws are mostly there for hourly blue-collar workers who otherwise might not receive any breaks. In the white-collar world, you can be more flexible about the length of your lunch, when you take breaks, etc.
    -Your boss won’t necessarily have as much education as you. Do not be a jerk (even in your head) if they have less.
    -I once had a new colleague who thought that when she took sick leave for a dentist appointment, she still had to work extra hours later in the week so she worked 40 hours. We had to explain to her that the sick time she entered counted toward the 40 hours.

    1. ferrina*

      I didn’t realize sick time included healthcare appointments. I thought I had to be too sick to come in, and I could only use vacation for appointments.

  85. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    It took me a while to learn that if you want to know the office scuttlebutt, you have to develop good relationships with your colleagues and become a person they’ll trust to tell the important off the record info. In my first job I was incredibly nosy – I would just ask my boss about things that were really none of my business, and it was off putting and immature. I learned that if something is important enough to affect my work/workplace I’ll eventually hear about it, but it’s easier to be in the know when you have good rapport with your coworkers.

    In my current workplace EVERYTHING is passed through the grapevine – like, just yesterday I learned about a personnel change from a former coworker who heard it from another former coworker who heard it from the person directly. On the other hand, I have a colleague who’s pretty unpleasant to people and hates small talk, so she usually doesn’t hear about these things until weeks after everyone else. And yes, the lack of communication is a huge problem with management here, but the reality is that you have to learn how to navigate your environment and the informal channels by which information is communicated.

    1. ferrina*

      YES!!

      The informal communication network is invaluable, but often you need to create your own network. And never share something you aren’t sure of or would need to break confidentiality for- that will turn what you say from Information to Gossip. Keeping confidentiality will build trust and get you more information (and once one person trusts you, that will spread).

  86. urguncle*

    Every workplace seems to have different birthday norms and it’s too much for me to handle. I dread Slack on my birthday and work anniversary for the onslaught of notifications.

    1. CSRoadWarrior*

      My office sings “Happy Birthday” via an all company virtual meeting, with every single employee singing. It makes me cringe. I would appreciate it if everybody left me alone, as I am not a people person and really hate being the center of attention.

  87. TX_Trucker*

    From reading these comments, I think the best “norm” is knowing that norms vary greatly across organizations and regions. When you switch jobs, you shouldn’t assume that what you did before would be appropriate in your new job. And it’s okay to ask questions about vacation, working through lunch, scheduling appointments, etc. My current job norms include punctuality is extremely important, everyone from the janitor to the CEO is a Mr./Ms./Mrs., and we text instead of leaving voicemails.

    1. NeedRain47*

      Yes!
      And
      It’s kind of a red flag IMO if your employer doesn’t tell you how to request vacation or give you any kind of orientation to the culture of the place. A good manager will make sure you know (or know how to find) this information as well as answer questions like “what do people do for lunch around here”.

  88. TitosandCoffee*

    Coming and going freely. It took a really long time for me to feel like it was ok to leave without being ‘dismissed’ by my manager. Even when I became more senior, I would still stick my head in their office and say, well, I’m going to head out unless you need anything. In my field and in my role there is rarely if ever a last minute end of day task. My bosses looked at me like a needy weirdo.

  89. *OOF**

    Off the top of my head:

    – Proper email etiquette. This is definitely a huge learning curve for our new hires and I cringe thinking about some messages I sent. Also, is it normal for people to reply within ten minutes? An hour? A day? A week? Let people know what response time is expected.

    – Oversharing and appropriate conversation. You can’t gain anything from discussing politics, religion, etc. in the office. Similarly, gossip is just an awful idea. Stick to work talk.

    – Calendars. In the past, all of my offices expected everyone to refer to each other’s Google cals as a courtesy for scheduling meetings, calls, asking questions, etc. But my current boss was AGHAST that I had access to his. He blocked me from it and I still never know where he is. I was mortified.

    – Boundaries. You may get along well with a coworker or two, but it’s a big deal to tell someone what you’re really thinking, let coworkers know about your dating life, or even date a coworker. (I feel like you can tell this to younger folks 100 times, but until they get burned by it, it doesn’t really sink in.)

    – Grey area that’s unique to your office. Little quirks like “the llama division always has a big report due on the first, so don’t bother them,” “the CEO expects us to pull these numbers on Monday mornings before the all-hands,” or “head of teapots hates it when people call out sick on Fridays.” This kind of stuff is what people forget to tell you the most often.

  90. cabbagepants*

    If someone (with the authority to do so) tells you to do something, it’s your responsibly to 1) understand what the task entails; 2) request clarification if needed; 3) get the task done; and 4) communicate that the task is done and any results.

    “I forgot” is not an acceptable excuse besides as a very rare occurrence.

  91. Workaholic*

    I’ve been at my current co. Over 10 years and I’m still crazy shocked by PTO and sick days (they added 72 hrs sick pay/yr after COVID). Being able to just call in sick – no explanation given. One boss said “we’re all adults. You say you’re too sick to work: I believe you. End of discussion. I really don’t need or want to know more”. Coming from food service and “if you’re sick find someone to cover or else” so everyone worked sick, or other companies where you needed Dr notes or just lost a day’s pay… i actually think this was my hardest transition. I came down sick the day before I started. Didn’t want to lose my job so went in sick. Coworkers threw a fit, boss said it was my choice, and me terrified to be fired for going home/calling in sick.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      This one. My previous jobs were the kind where you technically had 5 days off per year but they made it impossible to schedule them, and you had to find your own sub. My current one caps at 260 hours of PTO and [I don’t know how many; I’m at 410 right now] hours of medical time, and unless your department is absolutely strapped they actively tell you that you’re near your limit and you should go do something else for awhile. I’ve been here almost 18 years and I still sort of pinch myself.

  92. H.Regalis*

    Oh wow, it’s hard to remember even though I’ve done so much dumb stuff over the years XD

    -Being expected to stay on top of things on my own without someone reminding me. With being in school for a long time, I was very used to receiving reminders like, “Don’t forget to turn in XYZ form” so being in a job where I have yearly goals and no one reminds me that I need to work on them was an adjustment.

    -Don’t talk about stuff like sex, getting super high, partying, family drama, whatever. Initially I would talk about the same kind of things I would talk about with my friends, and I would not do that now.

    -This isn’t a work place norm, but in my earlier jobs I had people get mad at me for being slow at a given task because I was new, or not knowing how to do something I had never been trained on. I always felt bad, like I wasn’t doing a good job, but now I’m more like, “No shit I’m slower at this than the person who’s been doing it for twenty years” and I think those people are ridiculous.

    1. Project Problem Solver*

      Interestingly, I had this in reverse as I went back to school years after being a working professional. The reminders and notifications and check-ins felt incredibly intrusive and like I wasn’t trusted to do what I’d said I would do! Granted, I was in my late 30s and the profs were probably not used to that.

  93. MicroManagered*

    Sending problems to your boss, without trying to solve or de-escalate yourself first, is not doing good work.

    If you have a situation and you aren’t sure how to respond, it’s much better to approach your manager with something like “this person is complaining about X and I don’t think we can fix it, but is Y something we could do?” or “I read this about X on this government/industry website, does that mean I should tell them Y or Z?” and then go handle it yourself… than it is to just forward an email and say “this person is complaining about X” like that’s the end of it for you.

    1. Tuesday*

      Yes! I thought it was a GOOD thing that I was going to my boss with so many issues at first – I was keeping them in the loop! It turns out that is not usually the desired approach.

  94. Powerpants*

    That people seem to want to chat so much when they are supposed to be working. I used to work with kids and it is very distracting to the task of supervising young children. Now I do an office-type job and people who can’t seem to get me answers to emails can talk about football for 30 minutes. I hate sports. Ugh. There is so much talk about sports.

    1. rayray*

      I’ve been working well over a decade at this point, and what still gets me to this day is that it’s sometimes considered unacceptable to play a game, look at your phone, browse the internet, etc but perfectly acceptable for 30 minute non-work related conversations.

  95. Angstrom*

    You can be happy at work if you don’t *like* your boss. I’ve had managers who I respected and who did excellent work, but I’d never have chosen to socialize with them.

      1. irene adler*

        Don’t take them personally.

        And, the boss has to be a decent boss to start with.

        All this goes out the window if there’s employee abuse involved.

        1. Shira VonDoom*

          Agreed

          I can and have worked with plenty of people I had no desire to be friends or even more than professionally warm to, very well, because they didn’t treat my lack of interest/offers of friendship as a personal affront.

          I did my job, they did theirs, we left each other the heck alone otherwise…BLISS. LOL

          I really really REALLY strongly DO NOT want most people I work with to be friends, or know anything about my personal life. In my experience, that kind of overlap mostly ends up becoming A Work Problem unless the other person is REAL COOL and not a snitch (I do nothing illegal, but drama llamas will make anything a problem).

          1. allathian*

            Yes, this. That said, in my current job people are reasonable, professional, and kind, so the people I work closely with do know that I’m married and have a teenager at home. We might talk about vacation and weekend plans, but I don’t spend time with my coworkers outside of work.

      2. Hlao-roo*

        I’m not Angstrom, but I think they’re talking about distinguishing liking someone in a professional capacity from liking someone in a social capacity.

        I have also had bosses that I never would have been friends with (different life stages, different interests, different political views, etc.) but, like Angstrom mentions, they did good work and I respected their management/technical skills.

        I have also had coworkers who would have rubbed me the wrong way if I socialized with them, but they were good at their jobs so I just let the minor annoyances roll off of me when I needed to interact with them at work, and I appreciated the professional skills they brought to the table.

        1. Angstrom*

          Exactly! I’ve had bosses who I thought were good bosses — fair, honest, cared about their staff — but if they had said “Do you want to hang out this weekend?” I’d have found every possible excuse not to.
          It took a while to learn not to put everyone into like/don’t like bins immediately, and to appreciate them for their work performance regardless of personal feelings.

  96. LTR FTW*

    At my first professional/office job, the CEO was heading downstairs for something and I asked her to bring me back a file I needed. I figured she was heading down there anyways so I’d save myself the trip.

    A very kind coworker took me aside and explained that that was Not Done.

    2. rayray*

      This is actually one of those things I hope to see shift over time. While I understand a hierarchy, I personally don’t feel like that was out of line but I do know that many people might faint from shock. I do think there can still be some social norms and cues to take in this kind of situation, but I just hate this idea that someone is so above just doing a simple favor for someone else.

      On this note too, I would love to see Admin Assistants/Executive Assistants treated with more respect. Sure, maybe stocking the fridge or starting a coffee pot might be part of their duties, but perhaps if someone is in the kitchen anyway and takes the last Coke, it wouldn’t kill them to take an extra minute and grab the next 12 pack from the closet.

      1. TechWorker*

        I don’t think is a faux pas because of social hierarchy, it’s a faux pas because you ought to know the CEO is usually extremely busy and running between meetings and it’s not a good use of their time.

  97. Stevesie*

    Not to take disappointments personally. The best idea won’t always get picked, the person most qualified won’t always get promoted. Everyone is human and using their own judgement to make decisions and they won’t always come to the same conclusions as you. I spent far too much of my early career not letting things like this go and continuing to argue my points after decisions were made. And in hindsight, a lot of the time I didn’t have all the facts that the decision maker had. Or I picked something fairly inconsequential as my hill to die on. The vast majority of the time, it’s not a personal attack on you if something doesn’t go your way.

  98. CountessofBeans*

    What to do in the instance of a work-related injury, or why specific instances of drug/booze testing would be mandatory (my personal example: I found the CEO’s assistant bleeding profusely from a paper-cut.. which was the result of a from a BAC-level related to the amount of vodka consumed that morning)

      1. Merrie*

        At my work, if you really think an employee is intoxicated and can’t work safely, you’re supposed to tell management and if they blow you off, continue to press/escalate until you get someone who agrees to do something about it. Presumably one of the steps they take is to test the person to verify they’re intoxicated, and then go from there. Having an intoxicated employee working, apart from the fact that they’re not going to do a good job, is a liability and a risk for a number of reasons.

  99. CTA*

    Know how to communicate absences, especially when your presence is expected/required. If you are providing short notice, please provide a reason. You can be vague and don’t need to go into detail. Sometimes short notice means a phone call or text is better than an email.

    I used to work as an assistant at an art gallery. The opening reception for an exhibition is required attendance for all staff, including interns. A few hours before one reception, one intern emails me and my boss (the business owner) to say she can’t come that evening. No other details. My boss asked me if the intern perhaps disclosed the reason to me in private. The intern did not. My boss had to explain to that intern that you do need to give some explanation for why you can’t attend a required event. I know folks will say to give the intern some slack, but the expectations for the internship were made clear at the start and there was a reasonable expectation for responsibility. This specific intern was one year out of university if anyone was curious about age.

    There was another intern that same year who communicated her absence in a weird way. One evening, my boss received an email at 8:30pm from the intern. The intern stated she wasn’t coming to the office because snow was on the forecast and she was worried her car couldn’t make it down the hill where she lived. What made this weird wasn’t just that this was an email at 8:30 at night. The intern sent this message as a reply to a different communication between her and the boss. At least start a new email with a relevant subject. Or, send a text message. The intern did have our phone numbers. I’m surprised my boss read the email that night and didn’t wait until the next morning. My boss thought this intern was irresponsible and told her so because the snow was something that was on the forecast for days. My boss would have been more understanding if the intern had spoken up earlier. This was ten years ago and IDK if looking at the weather was something people did regularly back then. I imagine you would so you know how to dress for the weather? This intern was also one year out of university.

    If you’re wondering why my boss had a strong reaction to the snow day intern, she responded this way because we were expecting an important delivery and it might come when the intern would be alone for a few hours (I was on a scheduled day off and boss was going to be out of office for a few hours). The intern was also having performance issues, which didn’t help her. For example, my boss once came back to the office early from an offsite meeting and found the intern hanging out with her boyfriend and the boyfriend sitting in the boss’s chair behind the boss’s desk and in full view of visitors. There were also other issues when it came to completing assignments and responding to follow-up questions about those assignments. I know a lot of people will say to not leave interns alone and that my boss was out of line because she was relying on the intern for coverage. I’m not defending my former boss. I’m just reporting what happened.

    1. M*

      OT, but using an existing email to send an unrelated communication can create unnecessary headaches when reviewing messages for legal purposes.

      Attorneys are forever doing things like using a “Mike v. Molly” work message to ask where are we going for lunch today, because everyone involved in the lunch is already on that email.

      If the Mike v. Molly emails become a legal issue down the road, someone has to review them all and weed out the actually irrelevant parts like the lunch question.

    2. LTR FTW*

      Just an aside, I can assure you that ten years ago people were just as interested in checking the weather as they are today. :)

  100. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

    These are pretty much “work is different than school” things, but:

    + In a lot of lower-level office jobs, particularly hourly ones or ones working with confidential data, you are expected to get your work done at the office and during work hours. You cannot take the things you didn’t get around to that day home as “homework”. (I remember one of the other temps needing this explained to him when we were all working in an office for a large bank. No, you cannot take some of the files home because you didn’t get to [task] yet and want to spend more time on it or spend more time practicing [part of job].)

    + The work you are given to do is the work that someone has decided is what needs doing. It’s not for your benefit and you probably won’t be given detailed feedback or a grade on every piece of work you complete, it’s the stuff that the business needs done for some reason or other and you’re the one who is going to be doing it. On the other hand, you may also be given vague tasks where the person giving them doesn’t have a specific answer in mind, because what they want is for you to solve a problem they’re having rather than to show that you’ve mastered [skill] by creating [specific thing].

    + If you need it to do your job, your company should (probably) be paying for it, and if it’s not expensive and is task-appropriate it’s probably not a big deal to get the tool you need. For example, in my temp job at the bank back office, they were happy to order me one of those alphabetizing document sorters because they were less than $50 and would let me sort papers more efficiently so I could get more filing done in the same amount of time. I was also surprised that when they needed more copy paper, they’d just…order more copy paper, because clearly we needed to make copies and that requires paper, which we should just always have on hand in appropriate quantities. At school, there’d always been a lot of rules about how much copying various people were allowed to do and increasingly weird workarounds as people ran out of paper for the year.

    1. kiki*

      Your first point is one that I also struggled with, but changed as I progressed in my career and moved fields. Now, the expectation is that I *do* work on things outside of my normal work hours. I think I especially struggled with this coming out of school because both my parents jobs definitely expected them to take some work home with them, so it seemed weird to me not to!

  101. Kwebbel*

    What really struck me when I started? That desk chairs aren’t to be moved around to other desks. Having come from university, where whoever got to class first would drag the “best” desk chair over to wherever they wanted to sit, it was honestly a transition for me to learn that, in office settings, the chair at your desk is as much “yours” as the actual desk you’re sitting at and the laptop you’re using.

    1. Mid*

      Oh that’s a good one! Office supplies in general aren’t usually to be taken from someone’s desk, even if they have the exact same pens as everybody else from the supply closet.

  102. Caroline*

    That it’s acceptable to continue work conversations not only into the restroom, but while said conversationists are in their individual stalls? Also that it’s apparently rude to use the hand dryer when others are talking by the sinks in the restroom (I’ll just walk back to my desk with wet hands then…)

    2. Stevesie*

      Sounds very specific to your office! Both of these would be way out of the norm where I’ve worked

    3. rayray*

      Ughhh I absolutely hate when I walk in the bathroom at the same time as someone and they want to talk whilst we use the toilets. It’s so childish and weird.

  103. kiki*

    For my first office job, I was so excited to find out that I didn’t have to ask to go to the bathroom and could take a bathroom break just about any time. And that nobody would time me! I had spent all of high school intentionally dehydrating myself so I wouldn’t need to go to the bathroom. I also worked at a grocery store, where going to the bathroom mid-shift was a BIG DEAL. Then in college, classes were more spread out so it wasn’t as much of an issue, but all my jobs continued to be customer-facing, so not very chill on the bathroom front. It was just so nice to be able to go to the bathroom whenever and not alert anyone!

  104. Triple Nerd Score*

    This is a great thread! Long-time reader, first-time commenter. The biggest thing that sticks out to me: Unless it’s a really toxic workplace, most managers and co-workers care a lot less about intent than they do about impact.

    It doesn’t really matter *why* you did A instead of B, or whose fault it was that you did A instead of B, or how guilty you feel about messing up with A instead of B. Your manager and coworkers will naturally expect you to learn from it, move on, and find a way to do A correctly.

    This can feel REALLY hard at first! If you are a thorough person, you might wonder, “Don’t people care about why I thought I was supposed to do A?” If the mistake was caused by someone else’s misstep or poor instructions, you might get defensive: “But this wasn’t my fault! I did everything I was told!” And if you tend to veer toward shame (as I do), you might end up feeling your emotions pretty powerfully: “I am so, so, SO sorry! I’ll never do it again!”

    But when you grow and mature in the workplace a bit more, you come to realize that letting go of the background and sticking to the facts is actually really liberating:

    * While it’s valuable to learn why you did something wrong, that information is most valuable to YOU as a learning piece. Certainly feel encouraged to share with your manager, but don’t feel pressured to share with the class. Just make the necessary adjustments you need to make and do it the right way next time!
    * If you made a mistake because of someone else’s misstep or a poor process, worrying about fault or getting defensive is a LOT less valuable than recognizing it, calmly taking that info on board, and sharing questions/feedback to the appropriate party as able. Staying calm, asking a basic follow-up question, or providing simple feedback will CYA (Cover Your Ass) a lot better than slinging fault or accusation!
    * No one is necessarily served by an overwrought apology or an outward expression of shame or guilt. You might feel those emotions, but allow them to pass through you. Take accountability for the mistake in a simple, clear way – then relax, move on, and be free.

    These are all lessons it taken me almost 20 years to learn – but it’s the soft skill stuff that no one taught me or trained me on when I joined the working world at 14.

    1. Anonymouse*

      This is how I went into my first job and agree that it’s helpful for most situations.

      I’m now at a weird job where the CEO always wants to be challenged and respects people who push back so I’m slowly learning that. Want to put that out there if others encounter this.

      I do think that if you’re repeatedly being blamed for mistakes that others have made (or they didn’t get you their pieces of the project on time, etc.), it’s fine to go to your supervisor with all of your “receipts,” e.g. get everything in writing in email, to show that you’ve done everything in your power to make this work. Always protect yourself from the malfeasance of others.

  105. Lizzianna*

    I worked retail in high school and college. The fact that I could go to the bathroom or take a coffee break whenever I wanted without checking with my supervisor was mindblowing.

    My first week, I freaked out because I had to pee but I couldn’t find my boss. So I went for it. And nothing bad happened. I didn’t get written up. I can’t describe how wild that feeling of freedom was.

  106. MrsJameson*

    I struggled with showing up on time and understanding that just because I tend to run late in my personal life doesn’t mean I could/should in my professional life. It didn’t help that I worked jobs where enforcement on timeliness was lax, but it took me a while to realize that showing up on time is really important to a lot of people, it reflects well on you, is courteous to your coworkers, and isn’t too hard.

  107. career switcher*

    The biggest adjustment I have to make at every new job is figuring out which decisions I can/should just make on my own, and which I should discuss with my supervisor. This varies a lot by job and is never obvious (at least not to me). It would be a kindness to explain to new hires what that looks like for their specific role.

    1. Shira VonDoom*

      Agreed!

      and even what you have autonomy over, and what you don’t, even within the same field changes from office to office

      I have a high degree of autonomy in my current job, but they do their own document editing mostly (sometimes I catch a minor error and fix it). other law jobs, after the initial draft, I was completely involved in the editing process through approval of the final draft. But I had less autonomy in other things.

  108. Chilipepper Attitude*

    I was completely astonished by the idea that you might not share all you knew about how to do something at work.

    A friend got a “real job,” unlike my non-profit one, and she casually mentioned not telling someone at work that she had a certain skill we both had that seemed, to me, to be a very basic office skill (I have no memory of what it was). When I asked why, she said, if they know I can do it, I will spend all my time doing that and not be able to do my own job AND I will get a poor review even though I’m helping, my job is not done.

    I learned two things. 1. work is not about jumping in to do all the things, sometimes it is protecting yourself and your ability to do your job, and 2. adulting is not what I thought it was; people can be f-ing lazy and don’t learn new things or take responsibility the way I thought they would.

    1. Prospect Gone Bad*

      This overlaps with resume writing – don’t include everything. When I include everything it makes me look like a generalist jack of all trades and ironically, less qualified. But there have been enough years to do it all. I hardcore designed chocolate teapots for five years, then made them by hand for five, then sold them for three, then did QA and fixed errors for five. But when you write it all out, it sort of looks unbelievable that one person could have done it all and it looks way too scattered and unfocused and like you’re stretching some experience. As in, did the same person really box chocolate teapots and lobby in DC to loosen unnecessary teapot restrictions?

  109. Caroline*

    Possibly only applicable in the U.K., but I was baffled by expectations around the British Tea Round when starting my first professional job. It’s not acceptable to go and make yourself a cup of tea – you have to ask everyone in your vicinity if they want one too, most will say yes (with variously irritating levels of specificity regarding milk types and amounts, sugar, steeping time…) and what should have been a 30-second task to make myself a hot drink becomes a 15-minute performance. (I would always say no whenever offered a cup of tea and after a while stopped offering to others because I’m rude and weird like that.)

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      We had a chart on the wall in the kitchen with everyone’s mugs and preferences, so you could go, “Fergus, the mug with a llama on it, tea, milk no sugar.”

      People could make drinks outside the general round, but it was considered A Bit Odd.

    2. GoryDetails*

      Oh, gosh – I’d have opted out of the Tea Round too, much as I love hot tea; having to make it for others would irk me. [That said, my previous awareness of tea-time in British offices comes primarily from Dorothy L. Sayers’ delightful “Murder Must Advertise,” in which Lord Peter gets a job at an advertising agency – worthy of its own post, perhaps, re between-the-wars-era office practices in the UK? Anyway, they had the tea-lady who came around with a trolley, so people didn’t have to make their own tea – but they found plenty of other ways to bicker about who owed whom for the regular office horse-racing pool or who’d stolen whose dictionary. [Hilariously, I found the descriptions of workday life in the 1930s-London advertising agency remarkably similar to my own experiences in a 1980s software-development company; similar levels of horseplay and banter among irreverent people who were always dropping in to each other’s cubicles, collaborating on problems regardless of who was assigned to what, etc. But we didn’t have a tea trolley (sigh).]

    3. June*

      As an American, I would definitely not know this if I moved to the UK! I come in, get my own coffee, and that’s that.

      1. TechWorker*

        It’s not universal, if it’s any consolation! None of the companies I’ve worked in had this, though to be fair it’s a fairly small sample size. Possibly more common in small offices.

    4. Dani*

      I outwardly state that I’m not taking part in the tea round. I’m fussy and drink way more cups of tea than a human should so the tea round can’t keep up with me :)

      small office of 3-4 yeah, big office- no way

    5. GlowCloud*

      I’m a Brit, and this isn’t the norm for every workplace – mainly because it’s so ludicrously inefficient.

      I have a pretty casual workplace, but generally, our rule is the first person back to the break room starts the kettles boiling, and the person nearest the kettle when it boils pours into the waiting mugs, but everyone makes their own. Outside of morning tea break and lunchtime, no tea is made, unless you’re going into a meeting.

  110. Chauncy Gardener*

    1. If you want to see your manager, but they’re in their office with the door closed with the CEO (or anyone for that matter), DO NOT KNOCK. Come back later.
    2. If you work in a cube farm remember that sometimes you have to pretend to be deaf and blind to some of the things you see and hear
    3. Remember that not everything you hear needs to be repeated to everyone or even anyone
    4. Never go to your manager with a problem without at least one or two possible solutions.
    5. Take notes when people are training you and please refer to them. No one has time to train you 3 and 4 times on the same thing
    6. Do not reheat fish in the office microwave

    1. Lou's Girl*

      Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes to all of these! The only exception to #1 is if the building is on fire, and even then I had a boss tell me to come back later, ‘it was just an alarm.’ #2 please be sensitive to smells (not everyone likes that candle/ spray/ plug in/ diffuser. #5 YES! For the love of everything! #6 YES! And cabbage! And please don’t start popcorn and walk away! It will burn every time!

    2. Rosie*

      Absolutely agree with these!

      From a very conservative industry standpoint, as rules of thumb for people in their very first jobs:
      -don’t chew gum around your superiors
      -don’t have your hands in your pockets or “lounge” around your superiors
      -if there are not enough chairs at the conference table, and you’re the junior person, go grab more chairs or sit along the wall (don’t grab a seat at the table until you’ve ensured others will have one)
      -always have a black pen available
      -always have a firm handshake

      Things I always need someone to walk me through at each new job:
      -how do I put calls on hold, how do I transfer calls, and is there a phone code to dial out
      -where is the xerox machine
      -what is the trick to getting the fax machine to work

      (I don’t work in an office and still find myself needing these things on occasion)

      1. Corporate Goth*

        YES. Bring a pen and notebook. Be prepared. I send people back from meetings to go get one sometimes to make a point…unless they brag that they absolutely, positively don’t need one. Then I just wait an hour for the sheepish admission.

        Also, if you’re midranking or junior and someone higher up comes into the meeting late, at least offer to move from the table to the side chairs.

  111. No Longer a Newbie*

    I work in a creative cubicle-type job, and I learned to be pretty explicit with our interns and new staff that they won’t be busy every second of every day, especially as they’re starting out, and that’s okay. When you send something to your editor at 3:30 in the afternoon, you may not get feedback until the next morning, and you shouldn’t bug them about it in the meantime. It’s on you to find a way to stay busy, either by working on longer projects, doing some additional reading and research, or even quietly looking at a site like AAM. It’s a trap especially conscientious folks seem to fall into, feeling like if they aren’t busy at all times, they’re failing. But it’s part of your job to understand where your work fits in the hierarchy and understand that you’ll sometimes have to wait on higher ups to get back to you. I was really bad at this when I started and had to learn the hard way.

    1. Angus Macdonald Boy Detective*

      I had to learn the opposite of this, when is it appropriate to ask a higher up for an update. Even now I sometimes fall into the trap of “I’ve done my part by passing it on, I’ll just wait for them to come back” . Higher ups are people too, sometimes things fall through the cracks and they need a reminder, and it’s ok to do that!

  112. PastaFiend*

    I really agonized over the work social events early in my career. What was the appropriate attire for the company holiday party? Can I wear jeans to next week’s community service event? And if I can, should I wear them all day, or just change into them right before the event?

    Then a few years later, I felt so sorry for one new hires who didn’t realize that a team lunch – even an informal one where everyone pays for themselves – isn’t an appropriate time to invite your new girlfriend. I guess there wasn’t anything technically wrong with it, but we’d all agreed to grab lunch at a new restaurant down the street together and when we showed up (including the boss), a young woman wearing athletic shorts and a running tank had reserved a table for all of us. Very awkward, and I felt bad that it hadn’t occurred to me to explain some norms.

  113. Wow, really?*

    The rude awakening that the vacation days you get for high school are not the same in the work world. During my first year on the job, the office manager would call me and let me know that I didn’t get things like MLK Day or inclement weather days off. I would crack up laughing and let her know I’d be in as soon as possible.

    1. Kayem*

      I really miss the vacation days in academia. Especially the time between fall and spring terms. Depending on the school, it was usually two weeks to a month. It was pretty great because not only did we have time to recharge, but we got so many home projects done with all that time.

    2. amoeba*

      Oh, that would suck. In the countries I’ve lived in, public holidays are government-mandated for everybody, so (apart from school holiday, of course) everybody gets the same days. We actually get more now than I used to get at uni because our company gives us a few extra days in addition to those every year…

  114. Correlation is not causation*

    I struggled with understanding when it was and was not ok to push back against people in higher positions. My first job was run by a highly misogynistic person who called the ‘girls’ everything from ‘sweetie’ to ‘stupid cow’ TO OUR FACES. Now, I understand that there are ways to address that, but at the time I though that since he was the boss, I didn’t have any standing to question him. The one time I did try to stand up for myself, he berated me and threatened to fire me.
    At the same time, a manager in my department would make a decision and expect us to come to him with suggestions if the new process wasn’t working. I was afraid to take concerns to him because he was ‘the boss’. Even when I had a better solution and he was seeking feedback, I was so conditioned that the boss makes all the rules, that I was afraid to speak up.

  115. EngGirl*

    A few that stick out to me as things I’ve had to teach people, not necessarily norms I had to learn.

    1. The concept of capital and employee’s value to an organization. I’ve had to have the conversation a few times where I explain to a new hire that employee X who’s been here for 10+ years and regularly puts in 50 hours a week can be 20 minutes late and take an hour and a half lunch in the same day, but that they as a new hire absolutely cannot.

    2. Hierarchies/office structure. We’re pretty relaxed and a relatively small company. You should not be talking to the President about getting a brand new computer. Also the types of social discussion that are appropriate to have with the c-suite/management when you’re new. I think a lot of new people observe casual conversations between managers and think “oh hey let me jump in” without realizing that it’s not always appropriate.

    3. The amount of alcohol that’s acceptable to drink with management when traveling. My department is small. Inevitably they will be traveling without me and with someone a few levels above them. The stories I have heard…

    1. HugeTractsofLand*

      #1 is huge! New hires learn by watching people around them, so it’s really easy for them to assume that Bob’s flexible schedule applies to them too. If you’re at a company where that flexibility is earned with time/track record, telling newbies up front will save a lot of resentment.

  116. LiberryPie*

    Mine was requesting time off in writing. When I started my first professional job, I mentioned at the time I was hired that I’d need to take a day off during my probation period for a wedding. The boss said that would be fine. I think I mentioned it one other time in-person after I started. Then the Friday before, I said to my boss “So, you know I won’t be in on Monday, right?” and she said in a shocked tone NO. I do think that she could’ve said something to me the first time like “Can you email me the request so I can get it on the calendar?” but still, I was the one unaware of the norm.

  117. Goddess47*

    Environmental things (mostly for on-site folk):

    –how often is the waste basket emptied and who is responsible? i.e. do/don’t leave smelly things overnight or for the weekend (I worked in an office where the Friday garbage wasn’t picked up until Sunday night); does your office/cube basket need to be taken to a central bin;
    –temperature (and probably total lack of control of) — as in bring a sweater (is a hoodie acceptable?) or something you won’t miss if it disappears; or can you bring a small heater when the office is freezing in July?
    –bathrooms — who to report a messy bathroom to? (and hopefully you don’t have to clean up after others)
    –office supplies — where to get them and what is allowed (i.e. maybe you shouldn’t use that pink/purple/green ink you otherwise adore)
    –parking/transportation — for on-site folk; where to park; if you need to wear boots/heavy coats in bad weather, what do you do with them;
    –security — where is a good/bad place to leave personal belongings? Are there lockable lockers? Is there security staff and what will they do and not do (i.e. will they walk you to your car at night?)

    Business process:

    –if not on direct deposit, how are earnings paid and when
    –time sheets? How detailed, what kind of accuracy, when due, who to ask when (not if) it gets messed up
    –status reports? What goes on them, how often, where do they get sent?

    And local business jargon — in a staff meeting ask everyone for the top 5 things that are acronyms or local phrases that they use everyday. Go back over your own status reports for the past six months and find the acronyms and local jargon. Make a list and share it.

    Good luck!

    1. Mid*

      Re: Office sweaters, I’ve found a good cardigan in a neutral color to be pretty universally acceptable. I found one that was black and wool at a thrift shop that was thick enough for my frigid office, and was $6 so it wasn’t a big deal if it went missing. Some offices allow blankets or heaters or hoodies, but a cardigan is pretty much always okay as a layer (not always for meetings though!)

    2. debbietrash*

      Second for office supplies! It seems so obvious that I think most folks who oversee onboarding don’t think to point out, “Here’s where the pens, highlighters, white out, etc. are. If you need something these are the people/person who you’d contact”. But I’ve heard stories where folks didn’t know for months where supplies were until the next new person asked.

  118. Girl in the Windy City*

    This wasn’t me, but I once had to explain to a direct report – after they didn’t log in until early afternoon and then ended up taking a sick day – that telling their boss (me) that they accidentally got high from a roommate’s “special” cookies was not a necessary level of transparency. It was a hilarious story and I was grateful that they felt comfortable enough with me to tell the truth, but I coached them that in the future with other bosses, just saying, “I overslept and I’m feeling under the weather,” would likely be the better option.

    1. Shira VonDoom*

      LOL yeah

      a friend at a retail job got VERY upset that the bosses’ son, who she thought was cool (he VERY much was not), snitched on her about smoking WITH HIM in back of the warehouse

      I felt bad for her. and then she went back to stripping a couple months later because it paid a lot better and wasn’t in a dirty warehouse with no a/c in Texas. I liked the job well enough, but I felt like she made the smart choice tbh.

  119. Deirdre Honner*

    Protocols around scheduling meetings.

    – who does no-meeting Fridays? and it’s not written down anywhere?
    – timing like some places are wonderfully explicit, as in nothing before 10:00 am; in other places, people scheduled meetings before the beginning of the workday – like 7:30 am. And lunchtime; do you conduct meetings while you eat (which I ALWAYS hated and could be an issue for non-exempt employees) or the time is sacrosanct and NO ONE schedules anything around lunchtime.

    1. Tegan Keenan*

      Also, if you are the one who asked if you could meet with me, then you look at my calendar and send a meeting invite. I worked with a new grad recently who would regularly ask if he could meet with me, I’d say “Sure! I won’t have time today, but the rest of my week is flexible” or something similar. He would not set up a meeting, but would then tell our boss I wasn’t helping him or that he hadn’t done something “because I’m waiting on Tegan for that.”

      A kind of minor, but I think courteous, thing I suggest to new hires is when they title the meeting invitation, they start with THEIR name, not my name (Fergus and Tegan discuss edits). That way when just a tiny snippet shows up on my reminder, it helps trigger for me who I’m meeting with, rather than just seeing my own name.

  120. Excel-sior*

    That even though you have a computer with a connection to the internet , you also have w big screen in an open office and if you’re reading things you shouldn’t be (like sports or movie news) someone*will* notice and it will be mentioned and it will not be an entirely pleasant conversation.

    Also, just because your colleagues are adults doesn’t mean that they’re competent, just because someone is polite doesn’t mean they’re nice.

    1. Shira VonDoom*

      yeah, I got chided for the screen thing at one job, even though I was caught up on my work, AND had asked around if anyone needed help and no one did…but it “looked bad” that I was on Amazon looking at model horses

      so then I just read news sites, which was fine apparently. also I learned to have bat ears and switch between tabs faster. LOL

  121. HugeTractsofLand*

    Norms that I learned:

    -Don’t take an excessive amount of leftovers from work buffets. One plate/tupperware, sure, but once I did two tups and an empty bread bag I stuffed full of chicken and I got some looks.
    -Contact a supervisor if you’re running late. Just because *you* know it’s only going to be 15 minutes doesn’t mean your boss does.
    -Your lunch break can be at your desk and involve your phone/kindle if your tupperware is out as a look! I’m on lunch break! indicator. A lunch break at your desk should not involve taking a nap.

    1. Dark Macadamia*

      “Two tups and a bread bag of chicken” sounds like something an orphan in a Dickens novel would steal

  122. Gracely*

    That sometimes (more often than you would think), you have to pay to park where you work. It still seems insane to me that employees/staff have to pay to park in institution-owned parking lots, but it is super, super common in academia.

    1. rayray*

      I’ve always found this one crazy. The local university with it’s affiliated hospital charge so much money for employees to park. They do offer free transit passes, and the train does go up to campus which is helpful, but this can easily double or triple commute times for some people depending on their proximity to a rail stop. There’s a Jewish Community Center near the hospital and I used to use the gym there, they didn’t charge me to park there but I still had to put a pass on my car because they had so many issues with the hospital employees parking there and walking over.

      1. Gracely*

        Yeah, you literally can’t commute to my campus (small town, zero public transit). Unless you live in the extremely swanky golf club neighborhood that abuts the campus, or in the off-campus apartments marketed for students, you must drive in.

      2. Sociology Rocks!*

        I somehow got really lucky, and the specific center of the university I work for has a parking deck attached to the building that we are not charged to use. Most other parking places at the university (including the hospital system) definitely do charge/have busses from far away lots, so the fact we are ideally located and don’t have to deal with that is miraculous.

    2. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

      I work in Boston metro, and in my experience, it is common to require employees to pay at least a portion of the fee to park in the office’s garage. Some companies will provide a certain amount of money as a parking allowance/benefit, to offset the cost of the parking spot. Parking in this area is expensive and can be $400+ per month. Small companies often have limited parking spots available onsite – not enough for every employee to park. One of my employers had a lottery each year to determine who would get dibs on the limited onsite parking spots.

  123. Thatoneoverthere*

    That unless you to clocked in at the very start of your shift for coverage reasons, most companies don’t care if you are a little late. I live in the midwest so most managers/companies I have worked for are pretty understanding during winter and other forms of bad weather. Or if you are just running late.

  124. melbelle*

    I’ve found that the work norms for IMing (on Teams/Slack/whatever your platform is) varies GREATLY from job to job.

    – Big insurance company: we were instructed to message a greeting, then wait for the other person to respond. “Think if it like knocking on someone’s office door, you don’t just immediately barge into your question.” (I found this very stiff and formal)

    – Law office job: basically for only shooting the shit, work-related questions were in-person or via email.

    -Current job (large hospital system): varies wildly from person to person! My younger colleagues and I use it freely for chatting and for work-related things; pretty much anyone older than me either doesn’t use it or only uses it for quick work questions.

    1. LiberryPie*

      That’s so funny because I find it annoying when people just write “hello.” I can’t tell if they’re trying to chit-chat or having a really specific question. Had not realized they might see this as akin to knocking on the door.

      1. melbelle*

        It was very unnatural to do, and it took a long time to not feel awkward! (Of course, now that I’m at a new job and that’s NOT the norm, I feel very rude just launching into my question without saying “hi” first and waiting for a response. Sigh.)

      2. allathian*

        Yeah, I also find it annoying, the disruption is much bigger if I have to wait for the other person to say what they actually want. Thankfully the norm in my org is that you say hi, and immediately state what you want, either in the same message, or at least start typing before the other person replies, because on Teams you can see when your conversation partner’s typing to you. In my org, the norm is that you can contact anyone regardless of what their status is, but assume that if someone’s flagging busy or DnD that there’s going to be a delay in the response.

    2. Filosofickle*

      Everyone who has ever asked “Whyyyyy does my coworker message me ‘hi’ and wait for me to respond? Why don’t they just put their question in the initial message?!” That’s your answer. Some places actually train you to do this.

  125. Shira VonDoom*

    granted, this is partially a neurodiverse vs neurotypical thing, but:

    people would get REAL awkward if I gave a real answer to those meaningless little greetings like “How are you?”, and it took me a while to realize that was just…mouth noises that NTs like to make, and I should NEVER EVER give a real answer, just something perky and equally meaningless, and then they’d go away and I could get back to my work. LOL

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I love the AAM ‘saying “how are you?” feels inauthentic to me’ post from May 24, 2017 because Alison very clearly explains that a quick “how are you?” is really a social ritual that means “I acknowledge you, fellow human!”

      1. Shira VonDoom*

        Oh yeah, once I realized people just wanted to be acknowledged, and that it felt warm to them, that helped me be less uptight about this “weird” interaction requirement I felt was being imposed on me, LOL

    2. Spearmint*

      As someone who’s on the spectrum, I used to struggle with this as well, though I’d say it’s even more nuanced than this. Like sometimes “how are you?” is a fancy way of saying “hi”. Sometimes it’s an invitation to make brief, light small talk, but only. Sometimes it really is asked literally. So much depends on context and tone and your relationship with someone.

      But yeah, at work it’s usually one of the former two, not the latter, especially when you’re new somewhere.

      1. Shira VonDoom*

        Oh totally.

        My current office is very small, and I’m irl friends with my bosses (which normally I would NEVER do). It’s actually a very positive environment and we all communicate well, so if someone asks how you’re doing, and you give a real answer, it’s okay even if they weren’t actually fishing for that.

        But the more formal/corporate jobs I’ve had? Oh HECK no. the less they knew about me, the better, haha. I kept things as light and as shallow on a personal level as possible.

    3. Dobby is a Free Elf!*

      “Mouth noises that NTs like to make.” I’m going to adopt this in training my amazing little neurodivergent crew. (4 kids, at least 2 probably autistic but never formally diagnosed, all ADHD.)

      1. Shira VonDoom*

        Another way I used to conceptualize it to myself, to get used to the idea that giving a real (possibly lengthy, possibly more personal than really comfortable in a professional office, LOL) answer wasn’t what was needed was, to view it like the password given to sentries in war movies.

        They ask, “How are you doing?”
        I say, “I’m good!/Enjoying the weather!/(other bland thing here”

        And I get to move past them and go about my business without friction. LOL

        I’m autistic, and while I can be flexible, there are times that having some good scripts for casual social interactions I don’t need or want to prolong is SO helpful.

      2. debbietrash*

        I am CACKLING at this because I deeply relate as a neurospicy individual.

        I will also forever read “I acknowledge you, fellow human!” like Steve Buscemi in 30 Rock.

      3. Parakeet*

        As an autistic + ADHD child (not diagnosed until adulthood due to complicated family dynamics) I learned a lot about this kind of thing – that “How are you?” is a social ritual that means “I acknowledge you, fellow human” and similar – from Miss Manners books! I can probably credit those with only coming across as somewhat awkward rather than completely awkward by adulthood, though they were also some of the older ones and I did pick up some ideas from them that were a bit dated. I learned a lot not only about social rituals and rules but also why they were important, how the same underlying principles and logic could lead to completely different ones in different cultures, and so on.

        As an adult, I like advice columns for similar reasons!

    4. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      As a fellow ND person, I want to gently push back on putting down ritualized social exchanges as if they are meaningless. Or only relevant to NT people, or extroverts, or whatever.

      Every community has some ritualized social exchanges. Different communities may have different ones, that are more or less comfortable/ intuitive depending on one’s relationship to the community — but that doesn’t make unfamiliar ones meaningless, any more than a different language is meaningless because one hasn’t yet learned it fluently and (perhaps never will). All ritual social exchanges serve one common function –the “I acknowledge you, fellow human (actually: fellow *person*/ being with thoughts and feelings(*)” bit mentioned by Hlao-roo– as well as other functions specific to the particular ritual, community, or circumstances. For instance, the ritual popular among many ND folks, responding to one person’s misfortune by telling when something similar happened to the second person, is meant to communicate understanding and sympathy. The ND ritual of exchanging infodumps about special interests is meant to communicate enthusiasm and connection/fellow-feeling (“Isn’t this neat? We are similar!”) as much as facts about the apparent topic.

      I’ve found it helpful to keep in mind that social rituals are like language: more readily intelligible and more nuanced to those who are fluent in them, less so to those aren’t, but never meaningless, never lesser just because it’s different. And like languages, fluency with social rituals can be improved with practice (even if the level of a native speaker is not attainable), or lost by inattention or neglect.

      (*some people –including a lot of ND people in my experience — have ritual social exchanges with pet animals and treat animals with as much respect for their thoughts and feelings as human friends. And some people don’t treat all *humans* as fellow beings with thoughts and feelings of their own, but dismiss ones of a different age, race, natioanlity, or gender, neurotype, etc.– or dismiss the personhood of *anyone* beyond their utility to the self-centered person.
      https://web.archive.org/web/20150404010354/http://stimmyabby.tumblr.com/post/115216522824/sometimes-people-use-respect-to-mean-treating)

  126. Thatoneoverthere*

    Its ok to ask questions if you don’t understand something. I caused alot of unnecessary headaches (to myself), but trying to figure out systems and procedures without simply asking.

    1. Lou's Girl*

      Same! I was convinced that I had to know EVERYTHING or be a subject matter expert right out of the gate. I thought it showed weakness to ask questions.

  127. Rosyglasses*

    I’ll just put out another recommendation for “The Unspoken Rules” by Gorick Ng. He wrote it as a first-generation college graduate and corporate America employee, and now works in college career services. As a manager, I *WISH* all my employees would read this and take it to heart. I would love it if Allison interviewed him!

  128. Blujay*

    My jobs have always involved writing including technical reports. At my first job no one mentioned that templates/boilerplate existed and I thought I had to come up with the whole 40 page-ish report and my boss wanted it in two to three days!

    So an orientation on resources like that. It needs to include not just that those templates/boilerplate exist but, as I have learned from people I have supervised, what criteria l thinking is needed to use it (when it’s appropriate, assessing what needs to change, etc).

    1. kiki*

      Yes! I spent so much time formatting the first presentation I made and it looked really good, but it was not in the company format. Nobody was angry about it and it was neutral/tasteful presentation. but my boss did pull me aside and let me know about the template.

    2. Copy paste!*

      Yes! And it took me a while to get over my academic fear of “plagiarism”. I thought everything had to be “my own original work”

  129. Silicon Valley Girl*

    Work hours & appropriate dress — not only are these “workplace norms” they’re ones that vary by workplace (& sometimes within teams at a company)! Starting out, I thought every office job was 9-5 & suit/dress type clothes. Which, no.

    Luckily, you can ask about those during the interview process, & managers can easily let new hires know these things, both during interviews & onboarding.

    1. No Longer a Newbie*

      This! I work in an academia-adjacent field, and it’s all jeans, tennis shoes, and lots of pink and blue hair. I dressed up for a presentation once, and three different people asked if I had a job interview.
      I notice some folks assume that business professional clothing is a given requirement at all workplaces, and it’s definitely not. Interviews are a good time to scope out how current employees dress.

  130. Snow Globe*

    If you are in a meeting and you are asked for information related to your job and can’t think of the answer off the top of your head, don’t say “I don’t know”, say “ I’ll look it up after the meeting and get back with you.” Then, make sure you do.

  131. The Person from the Resume*

    This makes me happy that I joined the military right out of college, and they very clearly taught newbies these things. And then for junior enlisted people when they got to the point that they might begin supervising people they were sent to Airman Leadership School (ALS) where they were taught the the basics of being a supervisor and writing performance reports.

    And when you got to a new place, people told about the specifics and pecularities of your new assignment because new people were always coming in a needed to know those things. And almost everyone remembered what it was like when they arrived there.

    And, of course, uniforms make it easy to know what’s appropriate to wear to work. ;)

  132. Lolllee*

    One thing I’ve noticed in new hires is a misalignment in break expectations. Some take breaks when ever they want for as long as they want, like leaving the building for 45 minutes to get coffee at Starbucks and then taking another 45 minute walk outside in the afternoon in an typical 8 hour work day. Companies I’ve worked for have undocumented break times that are universally understood but not documented anywhere like a break around 9:30 is typical but a break at 10:30 is not and people then get annoyed if they stop by to talk to someone at 10:30 but get turned away because that person is on a break or than person is out of the office for 45 minutes getting a coffee. I’ve seen coworkers and managers get angry at these unannounced long breaks outside the building, but when they confront the break-taker they are legitimately shocked. I’ve also seen the opposite where line workers think they can’t use the restroom unless it’s on their break time though I’ve never seen a manufacturing line that denied people a few minutes to use the bathroom.

  133. TooCoolForSchool*

    Right after undergrad I worked in charter schools where there are NO BOUNDARIES. When I made a career switch in my mid-twenties my boss had to teach me a lot of very basic norms. One that really stuck out to me as confusing was that you don’t go directly to your grand boss for questions, even if you know they are the one who will ultimately answer them. You have to go “up the chain of command” by asking your boss who will ask your grand boss who will answer your boss who will tell you.

    Also, I’ll forever be grateful and indebted to her for teaching me how to write an effective email. Something I thought was mortifying at the time is one of my most treasured lessons because it turns out a lot of people are terrible at writing emails.

    1. Mid*

      Knowing who to ask is so helpful, and usually unwritten!

      Knowing when you should try and figure it out yourself versus asking your boss (how to use Outlook is probably a Google question, how to find the correct vendor form can be a boss question), when it’s appropriate to go up the ladder on your own (my boss was out of office for medical reasons for a few weeks, I was scared to ask my grand boss questions because I usually had to ask my boss who asked my grand boss, but I couldn’t move forward with some work until I had answers), what is better to ask informally versus formally (asking if John disliked me or always was that rude in emails—that’s a coworker question not a boss question! (Also yes, John is always that rude in emails)), all these little things are hard to parse, and vary so much office to office!

  134. Satellite Gal*

    Oh I have several! I was lucky to intern at my company before coming on full time, and they taught a lot of these to me as an intern but often assume new hires will know them.
    – Time keeping: I am salaried but have to track my time. How do I do this? How to timesheets work? What hours am I expected to be in the office/online? How much flexibility over hours is there?
    -Time off: When I need to use sick time how do I let people know that I’m out sick? Do I need a doctor’s note? Can I work extra hours to leave early for an appointment? Do I have to ask or tell for vacation time? Are there coverage concerns?
    -Dress code: We are technically business casual, but everyone wears jeans. What is the level we are expected to maintain and dress to?
    Breaks: Do people take lunch breaks? Where do they eat if they do and pack a lunch? Can we work through lunch? Are there other breaks during the day? Do I need to let anyone know when I’m taking my break?

  135. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Less a thing that surprised me, but definitely a thing that some people need spelled out.

    If you have a minor conflict, disagreement, etc with a coworker, almost all of the time the first step to resolve things is to talk to that person. If something comes up repeatedly, you get unreasonable pushback/attitude, then sure you might move to talking to the manager. But if you skip that first step, you aren’t going to be trusted by your coworkers and at some point people aren’t going to want to work with you.

    1. Bob*

      This one is so important! And applicable to so many other situations too. Step one in interpersonal conflict should always be “talk to the other person.” Actual dangerous are a different story of course.

  136. Catwhisperer*

    It took me almost 10 years to work this one out, but going above and beyond will not get you promoted. Instead you’ll make yourself irreplaceable in your current role and de-incentivise leadership from promoting you because it will cost them more to replace you.

    1. Tuesday*

      This, and the high bar you’ve set will become the bare minimum everyone expects from you. Then when you inevitably burn out, it seems like you’re slacking! It’s not worth it.

    3. Chilipepper Attitude*

      This! I commented something similar but different – I was shocked that a friend held back what she knew to avoid going above and beyond.

    4. Anna Badger*

      I think this is partially true but partially wrong – I’d say more that if you treat your own willingness to go above and beyond as a matter of course then so will your employer.

      but if you treat going above and beyond as a time-bound, limited personal favour to your boss (or whoever above them is asking) which you will only offer if they convince you that there’s a real business need, and you’re clear and assertive about the impact of that favour on your workload, then they treat your time and effort with the same respect that you do, and they know that holding you back in your current role is not a risk free strategy.

  137. LuckyClover*

    I used to manage a team in a similar situation as you OP, and one overarching message I felt I could never communicate enough was how to ask questions and get clarification rather than guess and do a task wrong. For a lot of young grads, either think they know what they are doing OR have been admonished for asking for help at part-time jobs in the past.

    So very often – an issue I had to address with my staff would lead back to them not realizing they can / it looks better to ask first rather than guess.

  138. Eddie*

    First professional job I was surprised by how much of my work was just scheduling and logistical communication and thought it was beneath me somehow? We didn’t have an admin so yes, we were going to do our own admin work. Kind of silly to look back on.

  139. A Pound of Obscure*

    When I was fresh out of college 35 years ago, I remember going through my first performance evaluation and exclaiming how happy I was that my raise was more than I expected. My supervisor took me aside and said, I’m glad you’re happy but it’s best not to blurt that out, in case others didn’t receive a positive appraisal or a raise. Discussing salary is no longer taboo (or shouldn’t be), but my supervisor was right about the need for discretion! I still cringe when I think about it. In that same job, which was in the publishing world and part of a larger corporation, I participated in mandatory customer service training and to this day I’m glad for it, because it instilled the idea that our jobs exist to provide service (or products, or whatever) to the customer; they don’t exist to provide us a paycheck. Having that outward focus is so useful, and many new hires won’t know it instinctively. Some will, but many won’t.

  140. StellaPDX*

    I think one of the biggest areas for folks just starting out is to get someone to help “show them the ropes” for example, hey dont have a meeting in that conference room unless you want everyone to stare at you as they pass by. Also trying to not be friends with everyone you work with. Its like dating….wait a couple of months for folks to show their true colors of who they are before you start establishing relationships.

    1. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I think this is so important. Wait. Just wait till you have sussed things out before you establish any kind of relationship with coworkers at all!

  141. melbelle*

    Oh, also: how to handle mistakes professionally. My instinct with mistakes is to hide them and make sure no one ever knows how badly I fucked up, and if someone does find out, to apologize profusely and feel a deep sense of shame. (I’m aware this is not healthy, lol).

    Hiding mistakes can actually cause a lot MORE problems at work, though, especially if it’s something like a missed step in a mandated legal and compliance review process. And, in most places I’ve worked, once you own up to your mistake most people only really care about how you’re going to fix it, not how you feel about the mistake.

    (Learning professional behavior around mistakes has had a lot of positive consequences for me, not least of which that I think I’m more accountable when I make mistakes in my personal life, as a result of unlearning some unhealthy instincts/behaviors.

  142. Alex*

    Like everything, not always true – but learn when it’s appropriate to reach out to people outside the chain of command. There are some places where lower level employees emailing a director to ask a question pertaining to their work would be fine, but many others where you would be expected to run that question up through your supervisor, or at least CC them on the email asking the question.

    Going from my first job at a very flat and democratic organization to one that was much more structured and hierarchical, I definitely had to learn how to navigate who it was appropriate to reach out to and for what. Many execs say they have an open-door policy, but some don’t actually expect a newly hired coordinator to pop in and ask if they would like to join the holiday party planning committee. Ask your manager or other colleagues at your level!

  143. irene adler*

    I know early on, I felt like hiding things was the way to go. Don’t let the boss know about the struggles or failures. Just present the end result.

    Which is the sure path to an eventual train-wreck.

    This is not the same thing as bringing all issues to the boss for them to resolve.

    Keep boss apprised – will due dates be met or missed, unforeseen issue came up (e.g., can’t procure something, an unexpected expense, equipment breakdown, etc.), need more hands, etc.

    Bosses need to plan and modify those plans. And they may want to direct how to handle an unexpected or urgent issue. So give them the information needed to do all that. Don’t make them have to pry it out of you.

  144. Look out world*

    I consider myself recently graduated from “new to the office world” after just moving on from
    1. Knowing my place and the chain of command. When I first started working, I always thought my opinions would be welcome on new ideas or processes. That was…not the case.
    2. Understanding when to use the ! high priority in email
    3. What types of things to bug the IT guy with (and what things I should try before contacting)
    4. Similar to what other’s have said, your department’s admin is not your *personal assistant*

  145. koala*

    It took me a while to figure out how to be friendLY with coworkers without treating them like my regular friends.

    My first grown up job there were a bunch of other people at my same age and level and we’d go out for happy hours any day of the week and hang out weekends too. But sometimes also my department, including more senior/older folks, would get together for a group happy hour to socialize. Once I suggested this happen on a Friday after work and I was firmly shut down by a more senior person who said, “Absolutely not. Monday through Thursday are for work friends; Friday is for real-life friends. None of us are Friday-friends.” I never forgot it.

  146. Spearmint*

    Maybe I’m weird for this, but it’s good to get to know and make random small talk with coworkers occasionally even if you have little . When I first started working I thought that it was a waste of time to get to know coworkers at all, unless a friendship formed organically. We were here to do tasks and then leave, why waste time making small talk with people I have little in common with? This was especially true for me as I’m a single nerdy 20-something and my coworkers are mostly older (40-70), have kids, and not at all nerdy.

    I’ve come to realize it makes work related communication and collaboration so much easier if you have that baseline familiarity and friendliness to one another, and I still feel like I’m paying a small price for my initially aloofness. You don’t have to be best buds or share your life story, but a little goes a long way.

    2. allathian*

      Yup. Friendships don’t form organically unless you give people a chance to know you even a little bit. And it’s impossible to know what you might have in common with someone unless you talk to them.

      In my personal life, the vast majority of my friends are people I’ve known since middle school, high school and college, so most of them are about my age or a few years younger or older. I’ve been elsewhere at various times in my life, but I went to college in my hometown and now I’m back there, and so are most of my friends. But at work my closest work friends are 28 and 62 and I’m 50. Turns out that all of us are Agatha Christie fans.

  147. irene adler*

    Brevity.

    Please.

    Make your point/bottom-line your thoughts.

    Don’t test people’s patience.

    Folks are being polite when they listen to your heroic 10-minute narrative on how you fixed the copy machine. No one really wants to know the details. Save it for your friends outside of work.

      1. Tyra*

        On my first internship I had no idea how long I was supposed to respond for when my supervisor asked me how my weekend was. She was pretty rude, so I don’t think I was really rambling, but even three sentences (It was great, it’s been really nice being in [city] as I’ve got to spend more time with family member who lives here. We went to the cinema and for dinner on Saturday), seemed waaay too much for her. Really taught me to learn what your manager is actually hoping for with casual chat – work related emails etc. were a complete other stressor!

  148. Robin Ellacott*

    Occasionally someone without a lot of work experience takes their manager’s professionally kind response when they have a personal issue to mean they now have an office therapist/mom whom they should tell their problems to every day. Unless the issue has work ramifications it’s best to keep it clear in your head that your boss is a work mentor, not a personal life mentor.

  149. chs.29*

    I think knowing when to be serious and when to be more casual is a skill. This obviously varies a lot from office to office, but when I started out, I thought everyone would be Very Serious, so I acted Very Serious in a relaxed, upbeat office. I think it came across like I was acting serious because I didn’t actually have a firm grasp on my field, and I really needed to loosen up a but to come across more cool & collected.
    I’ve definitely seen it go the other way too, when fresh grads are way too laid-back or don’t know where to draw the line with jokes. Developing my abilities to read the room was a crucial skill early on.

  150. Triplehiccup*

    An individual’s role in a particular meeting. Are you there to listen and ask questions if they pop up, or should you be proactive about putting forth your ideas? Same for needing to recall what was said and therefore note taking or whatever your system will be.

  151. ecnaseener*

    Not office-specific, and I thankfully learned it at a summer fast-food job, but how to answer phones at work. Our phone rarely rang (no delivery or anything) so I’d never heard anyone answer it before when I picked up with “Hello?” and heard the manager say “…I believe you mean ‘You’ve reached [Store], how may I help you.'” Oops.

  152. Bob Howard*

    Surprised no-one has mentioned it yet:

    Always word e-mails assuming they will wind up in the in-box of the most embarasssing person possible.

    1. Casual Librarian*

      +1 Yes to this. That is not a thing I expected AT ALL.

      And random comments or other more sensitive projects can get into the hands of unrelated people SO QUICKLY.

    2. Tegan Keenan*

      When I worked for elected officials, every email was considered a public record. I learned pretty quickly that anything I typed could potentially be in the media. Or, at minimum, piss off a whole lot of coworkers and higher-ups. I’ve mostly carried that lesson with me and don’t email anything I wouldn’t want public.

  153. WantonSeedStitch*

    I think probably the most important thing to know is that generally speaking, it’s better to speak up than screw up. Get an assignment and you’re not sure how to go about it? Ask for clarification rather than spend time and effort doing it wrong. Not sure whether it’s OK to wear open-toed shoes/work through lunch and go home early/directly email the head of the department? Ask. I once had a new employee start the day we had a large celebration at work, where beer and wine were served. She hadn’t had time to observe the norms around the workplace regarding drinking at office functions, so she asked me what people usually did. I told her that it was very common for people to have a drink, maybe two, but that I’d never seen anyone have more than that, and that no one ever seemed visibly intoxicated at functions. I appreciated that she’d asked instead of assuming a heavy-drinking culture, and I imagine she was glad she’d asked instead of assuming she had to avoid taking advantage of a free bar!

    1. Colette*

      This is a really good point. And in addition, speak up as soon as you know something is going wrong. Project isn’t going to be done on time? Realized you’d been doing something wrong (or not at all) for months? Don’t wait for someone to figure it out; speak up right away and come up with a plan to fix it (or ask for help coming up with a plan).

  154. Irish Teacher*

    Oh, whether things like photocopiers can be used for non-work purposes and if so, whether there are any unspoken limits on this.

    I worked in one school where there was a real problem with student teachers using the photocopiers to print out reams of study material for their own exams, which was particularly an issue as their exams took place at a similar time to the school summer tests so teachers were trying to print out those test papers.

    I think it was the principal who said somebody was going to have to tell them that while of course, it was fine for them to use the school photocopiers occasionally for their own use, printing off 50 pages for personal use when there is a queue behind them is not OK.

    And I remember myself in the past when there were maybe 1 or 2 computers for staff use, not being sure whether or not it was OK to use them to check my e-mail or something. In most schools I worked, the general consensus tends to be as above – personal use is fine so long as it’s a) reasonable and b) you recognise that work use comes first and you don’t tie it up when people are waiting to use it for work. But this is rarely said and there are exceptions. I worked in one school where we were explicitly told that computers were for work use only and another where use of the photocopier was restricted (we weren’t told specifically that we could only use it for work purposes but we had individual codes)

    I know this one is tricky because it’s often more a “nobody cares” rather than being explicitly allowed.

    1. spcepickle*

      Almost 20 years ago when I was starting my career someone emailed the whole company a link to a free online bible. This was quickly followed by an email telling people while it was fine to access on-line please do not print it at work!

  155. Colette*

    If something’s not your job (because it is someone else’s job), you shouldn’t do it. Give the work to the person who is equipped to do it well. In other words, know what you are supposed to do and do that; let other people do their part as well.

    1. Sparkle llama*

      This took me over a year to understand at my first job where I had access to an admin person to support me. Just because I can do something doesn’t mean I should and asking admin to do admin work isn’t somehow rude, unless it is outside of their job function or you are rude about asking.

  156. Decidedly Me*

    What am I supposed to wear? I still struggle with this one. I am remote, but have had to visit different offices a few times (with different office cultures) and it stresses me out every single time.

    From my own newbie hires – I find that people seem confused on promotions. However, this may be unique to this group, as many are coming from an industry where a promotion every 3 months is typical (one of those where they just add 1, 2, 3 to titles with very little actual difference to help prevent turnover). We don’t do that – promotions have meaningful differences (supervisors, managers, different departments, etc), so we’ve taken to explaining this upfront so people don’t suffer from a morale issue from not getting a promotion at 3 months.

    For remote work – Slack/Teams/email focus? What are the rules surrounding statuses? Do you DM or use group channels? Do people typically use threading? Essentially, all around remote communication rules :)

  157. Emily S.*

    When I started my first 8-5 job, I was very naïve and unaware of business norms. I had a belief that I could only take sick days when I was physically ill.

    Several months in, I had a morning where I just felt like I wanted a “mental health day” (though I didn’t know that term yet ). But I didn’t realize I could do that. I called my supervisor and she said, “If you need to take a sick day, take a sick day.” So I did. Sometimes we just need a break, and it was a helpful lesson. Even if your company doesn’t offer personal days per se, it’s good to remember that sick time (and vacation time) can serve that purpose if you need it to.

    1. Kayem*

      When I was hired as a part time, hourly administrative assistant, my entire experience had been either retail, food service, or tech support, all in minimum wage roles where the only benefit was not getting fired for calling in sick. Even the thought of benefits was outside the realm of possibility, so I didn’t even consider that I should ask about it in my new job (and it’s not like my employer went out of their way to tell me).

      So a year and a half later, I get promoted to a full time, salaried position in another division and someone hands me a benefits package. That’s when I learned that as a part time desk sitter, I accrued PTO at 3/4 the rate of full time staff. Of course, having just moved divisions at the start of a new fiscal year (PTO didn’t roll over), I had two weeks of PTO that went down the drain. Payroll in the former division cheerfully said she wondered why I never used any of it. I’m still bitter about that, especially since I had taken a week and a half unpaid vacation a few months prior.

  158. ACM*

    I once got to witness a major workplace norm misadjustment.

    I used to be a janitor at a moderately-large office building in the American South, a new department head was hired/promoted from another region, and he was very disgruntled to be in the region even though the position was what he wanted (I later found out).

    The office culture was cooperative and informal, and this guy insisted people call him by his full title + name (think insisting people say “Yes, Director Jones” when they answer a question) and people a certain number of levels below him on the hierarchy weren’t supposed to speak to him at all!. Even the full regional head (his immediate superior) was generally given a “How’s it going, sir?” when you saw him in the hallways.

    As a janitor, we saw the late-stayers (some of whom were other division heads). We had a pretty friendly relationship with them, say hello, make minor chit-chat. Sometimes they’d have a request like “We’re going to be having a work party this Friday, can you leave us some big trashcans and bags on Thursday night?”. Little things like that. We were there to do a job, they were there to do their jobs, we all tried to get along with our respective jobs with a minimum of fuss and aggravation.

    Imagine his reaction when a certain unknowing and cheery janitor came through his office when he was working late one night, said hello, pulled his office’s trash in front of him, and then bade him a good evening and a wish that he enjoyed the new location. Apparently he found it worth e-mailing the janitorial CEO’s contractor about.

    There was a lot more to it, but it wasn’t a year before he got moved out to *another* division in the country that evidently met his social and cultural standard.

    1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      I’ve worked in many parts of the USA (and overseas), and the only time I’ve seen anything like that was in the USA was when I was in government working with elected officials. Otherwise, there would be universal agreement that this person was narcissitic jerk.

      1. ACM*

        Oh, there absolutely was universal agreement. He reprimanded people from other departments until they cried because their paperwork wasn’t filled out exactly right, so other departments started going through *his* paperwork with a finetoothed comb and when they found something wrong, he had to do it all over again, there was no whiteout allowed on the mistake. He tried to claim it was because he’d worked in New England where things were, to paraphrase, refined and he was constantly being “insulted” by the “pushiness” and “disrespect” of people here. What’s funny is I heard he was born in Texas.

        One time he tried to file a complaint about the janitors leaving stuff unsafe because he left the office at 6 PM, forgot something, and was back at 6:30 to get it and his office was still unlocked. Normal workflow of the night meant his floor was usually done and locked up around 7:30, so we switched it the order we cleaned floors and got to his early on in the night. I got in the habit of locking his office door if he wasn’t actually in his office. Seemed prudent, you know?

        Once I accidentally (and truly on accident) locked him out of his office because he’d stepped out to grab coffee or something that night, and he took quite a while to find me.

  159. RC*

    When I was in my early 20s, I was being sent to a conference in a very expensive city. I offered to my boss that to save money, I’d be happy to share a room with my colleague who was also my friend. My boss very kindly told me that the optics of sharing a room with a colleague of the opposite gender would not be good and that they could pay for us to each have our own room. I was mortified.

  160. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    I thought “conservative” would mean Spanish music would be prohibited.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I was 16 and a Spanish student, in a region where foreign languages are novelties. We had maybe 2 Hispanic families in our city, and while plenty of French and German names, you’re going back generations before you’d find French or German speaking ancestors.

        My Spanish teachers figured out pretty quick that I gravitated towards Old World Spanish, (i.e. Castellano) and the curriculum was New World Spanish (i.e. Español)–given everything’s geographical relationship to each other, that made sense–and that I was picking up the language better from listening to Madrileños and other Northern Spaniards, and what was easiest to get access to were CD’s, so I spent a lot of time listening to them outside class. Mecano, Martá Sánchez, Paloma San Basilio, etc…

        I had lucked/stumbled into an internship at a “big” corporation. With the benefit of years, I realize now it wasn’t, but for its place and time it “was.” I had no real definition of “conservative” beyond the caricatures of xenophobia and conformism… Well, I figured I’d be the only person listening to anything like that, and it surely would stick out, likely not in a good way.

        After about a week of standing at an industrial copier in dead silence and talking to no one, my boss asked me about why I wasn’t listening to anything, and I explained my dilemma. I don’t think I’d ever seen anyone laugh so hard up to that point in my life. He very kindly explained that no one would notice, let alone care, what I was listening to within reason and in the print room no one would hear *anything* via ambiance. If I didn’t sing along at the top of my lungs, I’d be fine.

        He was a fantastic first boss, and I was so naïve…

        But I can’t elaborate on any norms. Nothing I’m involved in qualifies as “normal.”

        2. NeutralJanet*

          With respect, if you can’t elaborate on any norms because nothing you do is normal, perhaps this post is not one where your perspective is very helpful.

    2. Portial*

      Some workplaces prohibit personal music and some don’t, but I’ve never heard of a specific language distinction. “No salsa permitted in the workplace. Metal OK if all screaming is in English.”

      1. The Person from the Resume*

        I’m familiar with the unstated (but well understood) rule not to play any music others can hear. That would be so distracting.

        1. Lenora Rose*

          Even this varies; “mutually agreed-upon music source” seems to still be acceptable norms in some places, especially small offices or separate rooms, but the increase in open plans and cubicle farms has cut down on the number of places where you can justifiably turn on weird music without headphones.

          And solitary jobs still have an “almost anything with work appropriate language goes”.

          When I had sole custody of a file room, I wasn’t obliged to turn off music if someone else had to get a file, but I did have to mind the volume so it didn’t leak through the open door. I found if I was in the stacks, playing my phone aloud but softly made it easier to hear folks coming in to check thing out, and easier to do the actual filing work than fidgeting with a cord (even in 2018-19 corded headphones weren’t totally obsolete yet). I’d stick to head-phones when at the desk.

          1. DataSci*

            “Weird”? Are there really places where some types of music are permitted in public without headphones and others aren’t, depending on popularity or genre or something?

            1. Daisy*

              Yes, there are still businesses that play music over speakers so anyone in the building/room can hear (think supermarkets, but plenty of small businesses do also). If it is public facing you most often hear easy listening/pop rock/greatest hits/county. It is very unusual to hear hard rock, culturally specific music (this can range from harder hiphop, bluegrass, religious music with the exception of Christmas music), or anything explicit/swear words)

            2. I hate pop tarts*

              I can imagine that Top 40 or the … stuff they play in shops would be acceptable to most people but heavy metal or explicit R&B would not.

            3. amoeba*

              Well, we often have music in our lab spaces. And no, there’s no official policy on which genres are OK and which aren’t, but I think the unspoken rule is to pick something that is acceptable to everybody in the room. Which, in my PhD, did include metal and punk (including some definitely NSFW lyrics, but hey, it was uni) – at my current workplace, we stick with the radio.

        2. Nina*

          I’ve worked mainly in settings where ‘the office’ is a place most people in the business spend maybe a third of their time, and the rest is in the lab, on site, or on the road. Generally the norm has been ‘if it’s on headphones, anything goes, but take the headphones off when someone’s talking to you; if others can hear it, it’s a All Yes One No situation’. I’ve listened to a lot of Radio Punjab.

          I’m also in New Zealand if that changes anything.

        3. Jojo*

          I have a coworker who hasn’t figured this rule out and it really gets to me. But, the man’s head is full of soup, and he won’t figure it out on his own, so every time I hear it I ask him to turn it down.

      2. AnonPi*

        Where I’m at it wouldn’t be specified, but sadly music in a language other than *American* English would get you a hard side eye, and probably eventually told no music playing at all.

        1. Sun in an Empty Room*

          I worked in a government office in the rural US where a religious radio station was always on at the front desk. I have been atheist since I was in my teens and had specifically chosen a government job thinking it would provide me some protection from this sort of thing. The employee who staffed the front desk worked for a different governmental agency than I did and my questions about the appropriateness of clearly religious content being broadcast in the office went nowhere. I was told I couldn’t even turn off their radio when they went to lunch. Then I started playing a Spanish language radio station at my desk. Pretty soon there was a “no radio” rule which actually conformed to my preference for a quiet office environment.

      3. nozenfordaddy*

        I’m the first person in my office by a long shot most days (I start about 1.5 hours before the next person shows up), once notable day I was in my office with my headset on singing under my breath along with Green Day when my boss showed up early and was like.. what are you listening to?

        Which is how he found out I listen to pop/punk, punk and metal music at 6 am when no one else is here to hear me singing under my breath.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          Hi Allison. That McDonald’s ad is a popover add on my Windows 10 box with Firefox. Can you do something about this for the future please? I don’t mind ads, but popovers aren’t ok in my book.

          1. Aunt Mango*

            I doubt she will see this here. There is a link to report ad problems above the commenting box.

        2. Rainbow*

          At least you weren’t subconsciously rapping along with Eminem, like I was… luckily my boss was a huge hip-hop/rap fan, so I didn’t completely lose face… well no okay, I still did.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Wait, I’m not following, even your reply comments are leaving me muddled. Are you saying that you thought working in a “conservative industry” meant *politically* conservative, and that everyone else working there was a right-wing extremist, and that therefore all of your coworkers and management would be so xenophobic that they would have an actual company policy against listening to music from Spain?

      If that’s what you meant, I’m certainly glad you got that misapprehension corrected pretty quickly.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I pretty much stopped at “conservative business” means “thou shalt not be different.” I didn’t make it to any of those endpoints.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            To be fair, Alison didn’t ask “What business norms did you intuit properly when you were starting out?”

  161. Phoenix Axul*

    I think a good mindset to remember is that when it comes to work culture–every new employee needs an adjustment period; when it comes to the workforce or new type of work (retail v office)–think about everything you’d want your kid to know before they started their first job and pretend your workers don’t know that.

    We don’t all get the same influences, and some things that are obvious because they were subconsciously raised that way by their parents need to be learned or explicitly explained to others.

    1. rayray*

      I agree, and every workplace will really be different. One example off the top of my head, I had one workplace where I was admonished for keeping a throw blanket on my chair for when I got cold, but every other place I have ever worked it’s been 100% normal and acceptable to do that.

  162. WillowSunstar*

    I was severely bullied/emotionally abused growing up. I had assumed as an adult, this would not happen. Unfortunately, it is a “norm” in some workplaces. Thankfully, at least we have the freedom to leave. (Sometimes, I stayed in a bad situation only because of student loan reimbursement policies. Then I immediately started looking one the time was up.)

  163. Rebecca Kovid*

    I’m sure a ton of people have already said, “be wildly explicit about the dress code” but I’m just here to echo that. I’ve worked in both used car sales and heart transplant, and the ONLY thing those industries have in common about their dress code is the assumption that you will correctly intuit it.

  164. Somehow_I_Manage*

    How to communicate. Specifically, what’s a meeting, what’s a phone call, and what’s an email. I’ll crack open the can of worms and say that comfort and skill with phone calls is no longer a skill we can take for granted. In fact, I’ve had several employees communicate how difficult and anxiety inducing it can be. While I’m sympathetic, and agree it’s hard- for 90% of people it’s also something you can learn, and if you push through the awkwardness there are great rewards on the other side.

    1. raida*

      We’ve found for newer people that telling them just use the work chat system to say “Are you free for a quick chat about PAR?” and writing a quick script plus bullet points has been really helpful.

      They know they aren’t ‘bothering’ anyone, or interrupting them, the other person can suggest a meeting – that’s a big issue in the anxiety.

      The script of literally writing down “Hi Greg, how’s your day going? I’m working from home today and my air con is struggling hah!
      So I’m looking at the workflow for the PAR dashboard and I’ve got a couple of things I’d like to nail down with you, our resident contract measurements subject matter expert…”

      And then it’s a friendly intro, a statement on the reason for the call, and they can work through their bullet points to get the info they are after. Really makes it less stressful to call, and it’s basically treating calls like very short meetings because they’ve got an agenda!

  165. D. B.*

    For me, a big adjustment was learning how seriously to take rules and policies. At some companies, everything must be done by the book. At others, you can deviate from “the book” according to your discretion. And then at some companies there is no “book” and policies are basically a form of folklore.

  166. Sundae funday*

    You can go fast alone, but to go far you need others.

    I was a go-getter in my early days and I’d become so frustrated when my boss would tell me to ask “Ren” or “Stimpy” for feedback or tell me to ‘loop them in’ before charging ahead with some project. I now know it’s much better to take the 5 minutes to email people who may be tangentially related because 1) people like to find things out before it’s widely announced and get upset when they think they should’ve but weren’t and 2) sometimes they have something substantive to contribute.

  167. Loch Lomond*

    I wore a tank top to work in the summer one day in retail- very wide straps, but made of cotton so clearly not like a shell top or anything. It was otherwise a casual dress workplace, but my boss expressed surprise that he would have to tell me that I needed at least a little bit of sleeve.

  168. Junior Dev*

    I work in software and we typically start the day with a standup meeting where everyone briefly describes what they’re working on. I had a coworker pull me aside and tell me I needed to get better at summarizing it to what other people actually needed to know about rather than going on a stream of consciousness ramble. I think the skill here is “learn how to communicate concisely and in a way that’s targeted towards what other people would find useful or actionable.” The specifics of how you do that depend on the industry and workplace culture, but it’s probably a good thing to ask a colleague about if you don’t get it. If you have any sort of regular update type meeting, one part of onboarding could be putting together a template for what those updates should contain and how much detail to include.

  169. Wine not Whine*

    I was completely, totally unaware that microwaving fish for lunch was a faux pas. Fortunately I only did it once before a co-worker made a gentle comment…

    1. Filosofickle*

      I never tried it, but I didn’t know about this “rule” until coming here. Definitely in my own pile of Things Everybody Knows Except Me, Apparently.

    2. The Other Shift*

      I did not get a gentle comment about my microwave fish dinners. Apparently the smell bothered a lot of people! I loved those dinners…

  170. HannahS*

    Be explicit about lunch norms. Will your boss come and tell you when you can eat? Does everyone “just know” that breaks and lunch are at a specific time? Are you allocated a certain amount of time to eat and you take it at your convenience? Or anything goes as long as you get your work done?

    If you don’t tell medical students to eat, they won’t eat. It’s an adjustment to start working and the standard is now, “We work 8-5; one meeting at 8 and another at 2:30. Otherwise, manage your own time and make sure that you eat and pee as needed.”

  171. Combinatorialist*

    This is a thing now when it wasn’t so much before, but what are the norms around WFH:

    – Do you need permission?
    – Can it be regular? Can it be when slightly sick or waiting on the dishwasher repair person?
    – How often can you WFH?
    – Is it an ask or tell situation?
    – Does it need to be arranged in advance?
    etc

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Yes, this is especially important for managers who have reports who can work from home sometimes to think about. Sure, you trust people who have been on your team for five years to have good judgement when it comes to working at home vs the office, but what are the guidelines for new hires?

    2. Avery*

      Plus, this complicates a lot of the other questions that get brought up here. Like:
      – Does the dress code still apply to WFH Zoom meetings?
      – Do I need to tell my boss when I’m taking my lunch break during WFH? What about doctor’s appointments?
      – How do I reconcile office communication rules XYZ with working from home? If I would normally just walk over to A’s desk and ask her about something, should that now be a call, or a text, or an email, or a Zoom meeting, or…?

  172. bibliovore*

    I went from a corporate job where we called everyone by their first names to a public librarian job where I and everyone else were referred to very formally even in casual private moments, think Ms. Bibliovore then to a school librarian in a progressive school where everyone called you your first name including the students.

  173. silly little public health worker*

    here are some things i was surprised needed explaining when i was a manager of first-time office workers! note that their jobs were not hourly – while they clocked in and out, they received a standard biweekly wage.

    just because you have a 9-5 job that isn’t hourly, does NOT mean that you can arrive whenever you want to. 15 minutes is fine, sometimes; an hour late is not okay, even if you plan to work until 6, without permission. even in a lax atmosphere where directors do this. there are things longstanding employees can get away with if they have the track record or relationships to pull it off, like setting their own schedule or working from home without notice, etc. if you are new or have limited work experience – or if you’re on an hourly schedule – you probably cannot do that.

    you have to factor what kind of transportation you’re using in to how much time you need to get to work. if you switch from subway to skateboard, plan ahead!

    you really have to submit your expenses on time! yes you will get paid out for them per your company’s policies but accounting usually runs on a strict schedule and they’ll give everyone grief if you submit your expenses 6 mos late.

    take rules about close-toed shoes seriously. there’s almost always a good reason for this one, even if the rest of your dress code is bogus.

    in most sane offices, you do not need extensive detail as to why you’re requesting a sick day. don’t send…illustrative pictures.

    DOCUMENT YOUR OT if you make OT. it’s illegal not to pay you for it and it isn’t a money-grab.

    don’t request read receipts, especially if you’re new.

    if there’s something major you don’t understand, ask for clarification. it doesn’t make you look dumb, and if you don’t, you are likely to make major errors.

  174. matt*

    My first “professional” job was at a college. Someone called in a bomb threat (not a real one! but no one knew that at the time) against specifically the building I was working in. Campus Safety sent someone to the building to tell us in person and make sure everyone left. My supervisor told everyone to go home and she’d call us when/if we could come back. It only took the police a few hours to declare the place safe, at which point we all had to return and finish the workday, but I was absolutely blown away at the fact that we were allowed to just go and they trusted us to come back.

    Before this, my only experience had been student worker jobs and retail where we absolutely would have been forced to stand around in the parking lot while we waited and not get paid, if they told us at all. (the student worker jobs would have let us know! not so sure about the mall). I guess this isn’t actually so much about workplace norms and more about basic respect and being treated as an adult, but at the time I was surprised. In a very good way!

    1. The Prettiest Curse*

      Having grown up in the UK during an era of lots of bomb threats, your campus actually had a good safety protocol. For fire alarms, you can stick around, but for bomb threats, the correct protocol is to get out of the immediate area ASAP so that if there actually is a bomb, you’re less likely to get injured if it goes off.

      In my last job in the US, I was a floor warden for my office, which was in a skyscraper. During safety training, the building manager told us that the building used to get a bomb threat every few weeks before 9/11 happened because there was apparently someone in the building who would do this as a distraction when they were running late for work. (!!!) This apparently stopped when the criminal penalties for making bomb threats were increased after 9/11.

  175. shorts wearer*

    A norm I was confused by (and still am) is, that, in the summer, skirts and dresses are okay for women but not similarly dressy/appropriate shorts. I’m talking about, like, longer chino shorts, not cut offs, athletic shorts, or booty shorts. I’ve worked in several places where dresses and skirts with bare legs are okay but not shorts. I don’t wear dresses and have often commuted to work via public transit. At the beginning of my career, I just assumed it would be okay to wear nicer shorts (because who wears long pants in the summer?!) and everyone looked at me weird.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Alison answered a question about shorts in the past! “why can’t I wear shorts to work?” from My 1, 2019 (I’ll put the link in a follow-up comment). The explanation that makes the most sense to me (unsatisfying as it is) is:

      a commenter here once speculated that the no-shorts rule stems from the fact that the rule used to be no bare skin below the waist. For pants, this meant no shorts. For skirts, this meant you’d have to wear pantyhose. When businesses started dropping the pantyhose requirement, we lost the consistency between the two.

    2. Qwerty*

      Shorts ride up. It’s like wearing a small tight skirt – maybe you look fine when you put on in the morning, but once you start moving around you have to keep tugging it back down to the starting point (sometimes tights help prevent this)

      I’ve worked at multiple places that allowed shorts. The ones where we didn’t have many meetings and only were really around each other when we were standing were fine – the dudes wore knee length preppy shorts and everyone was happy. There was even a brief fashion trend of women’s suits with dress shorts.

      But at a recent job we unofficially decided no shorts because the people wearing shorts made us uncomfortable. During meetings the shorts would only cover to mid-thigh once they sat down and did the whole one-ankle-on-the-knee thing or manspreaded. Work appropriate skirts/dresses tend to drap differently so that you are still covered when you sit down.

    3. AGC*

      Oof, yes, I wore what I considered “long” shorts once in my early 20s and got sort of told off by an older coworker, which I still cringe about. (They weren’t booty shorts but they were not Bermuda shorts either).

      1. Sabine the Very Mean*

        “Told off” by a coworker….what a thing. I also once had an older peer coworker try to admonish me for something and referred to herself as my “superior” which is a term I’d cringe at even if a boss used it.

        1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

          Yeah, that would have made me cringe too, and possibly very blandly ask “So how are you superior?” Return awkward to sender, if possible.

    4. Common Taters on the Ax*

      I also think it’s harder to find the dividing line between super casual and not-too-casual with shorts. You don’t want the staff looking like they just came in from the beach or the gym without changing, but a lot of shorts will give off that vibe at a quick glance.

    5. Tyra*

      An apprentice (straight out of school, aged 18) at my (finance) company wore tailored ‘suit’ shorts like influencers wear in their ‘office look books’ (when they’ve never worked in an office) videos. I think someone took her aside and had a kind word. Although there isn’t necessarily a reason I could articulate why it would be wrong for her to wear them, it was so far away from everyone else that she really stuck out.

  176. Our Mr Wilson*

    One that thing that would have been helpful for me is where my department fits in with the rest of the company, at least generally. I was given an off chart of my teammates/bosses, but it took a long time to figure out where other people in the office and that I emailed with for into that. It didn’t help that I was in a field office where several teams reported into very different groups at headquarters, and i didn’t actually go to headquarters for a while. But I still think it would help to get a little of the bigger picture

    2. Dinwar*

      I’ll be honest: I’ve worked with the same people for nearly 15 years, worked my way up from field grunt to running the field office at a major client site, and between buyouts, sell-offs, restructurings, and the rest, I honestly couldn’t tell you where our organization sits in the org chart for our company. Makes it sort of fun, because different parts of my company have offices on my jobsite, and every once in a while we’ll cross paths without realizing it.

      I stopped worrying about it years ago. I know my bosses, I know my client, I know the site better than I know my backyard, and if I need to reach out to someone else in the company I know how to do that. That’s all I really need.

  177. NezumiChris*

    I got my first job in high school, and I just assumed you could skip work and not worry about it since for students, if you skip school all you have to do is bring in a note (easily forged) from your parents, or just don’t worry about the note at all.

    I worked part time after school and on the weekends at a library as a “Page” (shelf restocker), along with me and three other HS friends. We -all- took the same day off to go to a They Might Be Giants concert, no call no show, and were politely but firmly told the next day that this is not ok, and the next time this happened we’d almost certainly be fired.

  178. Thrillian*

    Don’t use company parking email lists to try to find tips on where to get your car windows tinted because you took your previous tints off due to a ticket, if anyone wants to go off-roading, and refer to the mystery individuals on said distribution list as “suba-bros”.

    The distribution list could include the company founder, CFO, CEO, COO, and every other senior leader in the company, and they will not be impressed.

    Also, don’t let yourself get out of hand at company events even if it’s open bar and sexually assault people, or give your underwear away.

    If your leader moves your desk to directly in front of the senior-senior boss’s office to keep a closer eye on you, try to at least pretend to do work and not spend the entire time google image searching pictures of women…?

    Don’t nap in meetings.

    Don’t bring a child to the office and let them ride a scooter as fast as they can down hallways with blind corners.

    I worked at a place with very strange company with VERY strange hiring practices and interns at one point.

      1. Thrillian*

        Y’all, right? The guy giving his underwear away at parties was an intern on my team and he proceeded to TELL EVERYONE ABOUT HIS LACK OF UNDERPANTS for the remainder of the night, and following week.

        He was not offered a full-time position upon completion of his internship, and I think his brother was nearly managed out from another team for having referred him to the intern program in the first place.

        Another fun favorite was the intern who tried to start a petition to make the new CEO pick a different spot for his office, because new CEO had an office built where the beloved ping pong table used to live and intern was just enraged at how inconvenient the new ping pong table spot was.

          1. Thrillian*

            The intern in question ~*mysteriously no longer had an active email about 3 weeks later, can’t imagine why XD

  179. Kirin Qilin*

    I had no idea that there would be downtime and that it was ok to not be busy every second of the day. At my first real job, I had some downtime and asked my manager what to do and she said she’d get back to me eventually and (I cringe as I write this) I snarkily replied “Ok, I’ll find a way to entertain myself.” The look I got back was enough to make me realize I was out of line. I now enjoy any downtime I can get!

  180. run mad; don't faint*

    In my first office job, I had no idea about regular one on one meetings between managers and reports. My boss was extremely laid back and rather dysfunctional and never bothered. He would occasionally drop by to tell me something, but 98% of the time, I worked independently. So I looked at coworkers in other departments and wondered why they had to have them. I rather mistakenly reached the conclusion that my work was better than theirs so I must not need those meetings. This was something I had to quietly unlearn when I switched jobs, and it was a bit of a blow to my ego until I figured it out.

    Oh, and I didn’t know I shouldn’t take my shoes off during employee only, no client meetings. When a higher up commented on it, I told him my feet were hot and ignored his implied, “Put them back on!” I still cringe about that.

  181. Avarice*

    I started in the workforce in the early 1990s, so the unspoken rules, jargon, and culture I learned the hard way are no longer in existance because technology and social norms have changed. What I can say, though, is that the “unspoken” changes constantly throughout your career, even if you have stayed in the same office for 10 years. So, don’t be afraid to ask questions. Chances are the five long-time employees sitting nearby when you ask your question are listening intently because they don’t know the answer and have been afraid to ask for years.

  182. Bopper*

    There are no dumb questions, but sometimes there are dumb times to ask them.

    If you are in a meeting with an ongoing project and they are using many acronyms or talking about topics you don’t know, write them all down and then talk to a teammate/boss/mentor about them later. Don’t interrupt the meeting to ask every time.
    But if you are getting a training session ask about then and there.

    1. spcepickle*

      Oh goodness but I am trying to teach a not-so-new-I-should-have-to-be-teaching-this person this exact lesson. As last week he stopped a meeting he was leading to asking about an acronym in his own presentation. Just palm to forehead moment.

  183. Indubitable*

    Is “Best,” a perfectly reasonable neutral signoff, or a passive-aggressive flounce on your way out the metaphorical email door? Your office culture has opinions! And it will not tell you what they are!

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I once worked with someone who had previously worked at a toxic organization where “FYI” meant “F*** You Indefinitely”. She obviously carried a lot of baggage with her that did not serve her well in future roles, and hearing that from her made me paranoid I would end up in an “FYI” culture!

  184. Combinatorialist*

    The dress code is not necessarily applicable in all situations. There will be times you may need to be more formal (conservative customer visiting) and possibly times when you need to be less formal (though this is less common). But if an unusual scenario is coming up for the first time and you aren’t sure what to wear, ask someone.

  185. JustMe*

    I think jargon is a big thing. Not just acronyms and technical terms, but certain phrases or manners of speech that have specific meanings in a workplace, and people pick them up and use them simply because they are together all the time. For example, at my first job out of college, all of my coworkers (who had worked together for years) would constantly say, “I’m tracking” to mean, “I’m following you/I understand” or “Where did we land?” to mean “What was finally decided?” I had another job where no one was allowed to use the word “help;” you were instead expected to use the word “support” (i.e. instead of “Can you help me with this?” it would be “Will you support me in this?” or “Will you teach me how to do this?”). It’s a small thing but it makes communications with new hires a little more difficult.

  186. Pudding*

    How and when to say no to requests. What things are always going to be a no, what decisions do they have some autonomy on and how much, and what answers and when should be deferred to a boss instead (even if the newbies know the answer). What language to use when saying no – can/should they be blunt or do they need to soften things?

    How to handle meeting requests. How to respond yes/no. How to make sure the requests are a good use of their time. What to do when invited to a meeting that seems like it’s a waste of time. (My team fields a lot of meeting requests, so I always tell newbies that they need to understand the purpose of every meeting and their presence before they accept it, they should ask for an agenda if none is provided, and they are 100% empowered to decline meetings with no clear purpose.)

  187. Kayem*

    This topic in general is one that drives me nuts in any area, but especially work. There’s this unspoken assumption that if you don’t know the answer, all you have to do is ask and not knowing the answer is simply a failure to ask the question. But for people who are brand new (new to the field, office jobs, etc.), it’s hard to ask the questions when not only do you not know the right questions to ask, you also (emphasized) don’t know there’s a question to ask in the first place. Which is why it’s so very, very important for employers to brief new employees on their workplace culture, practices, benefits, and anything else, especially to new workers, those new to the field, and those coming from different backgrounds.

    When people dismiss something as being “common sense,” I usually wind up headdesking because being common sense only works when the aspects about it are common to everyone. If someone gets hired to groom the llamas, that doesn’t mean they’re automatically aware that ducks shouldn’t be carried in a backpack.

    1. Avery*

      This! This caused a bunch of problems in one of my previous jobs, and I don’t think it helped that I was a fully-remote employee in a mostly in-person office.
      So they’d assume I already knew things like “the office is closed for X holidays” when… I had no way of knowing that, and no reason to assume that there were holidays outside of the ones I’d been specifically briefed on earlier (when the office closed for winter holidays).

      1. Kayem*

        Oo, yeah, it took me a while to figure out the holiday situation with my employer. While remote, we have to request holidays off and only get holiday pay if we worked the (business) days before and after (we choose to work, then we get overtime pay for that day). In-office employees automatically get the holiday off and are given holiday pay, regardless of work schedule, because the buildings are closed so they can’t work even if they wanted to. I always work the holidays for the overtime, but it took a while before I figured out why my managers never responded to me on those days. They just assumed I knew.

  188. Can't pass again...*

    Stockings/tights and makeup! Growing up, my “corporate” role models were all men and my grandmother, who worked in workman’s compensation and disability insurance auditing for a railroad company. She was working from home when it was virtually unheard of (early 90’s!) and she still got up early and dressed completely business with a face full of makeup to work in a converted garage office. No video calls at the time either! I truly had a strange image that all the women in office jobs were dolled up ala “9 to 5” that carried me into 2015. So when I “went corporate” myself from my first career in theater production, I must have spent over $100 on makeup and got multiple pairs of nude tights, only to learn that absolutely no one cares. I’m in a client facing role in a conservative field working from home, and the majority of days I am absolutely sitting in my pajamas, with my camera angles masking the plaid. I haven’t worn a lick of makeup in over 5 years, except for a few sessions of family portraits. When I hear feedback from other professional women in my networking circle, the women who have to conform to those expectations are often just working for toxic bosses.

  189. 2 Cents*

    These have probably already been said, but:
    –I grew up in Florida, where every older person was “Miss” or “Mr.” Switching to first names with no honorific (Dr., Professor, etc.) took a bit of mental practice
    –Flip-flops shouldn’t be worn all day, unless you’re a lifeguard
    –You will have very few times to go “from office to night” like all the magazines promised. Purchase clothing accordingly.
    –It’s easier to withhold personal info and disclose later than to overshare and regret it’s out there (like a medical problem, personal problem, drama, etc.)
    –Read the room.
    –Find the person who looks like they know what’s going on and follow their lead (silently is fine)
    –When in doubt, go with the safer choice (talking about clothing, etc., not an idea)
    –No fish in the microwave ever

    1. 2 Cents*

      Oh and learned after being dumped on for years:
      –Taking on ALL the extra work doesn’t necessarily get you ahead or shielded from layoffs. It gets you all the extra work.
      –If someone tells you you’re not cut out for XYZ work, that’s their opinion.
      –Learning how to say “no” or “hahaha yeah right” is just as important as knowing when to do so. There are memes about this (I look them up all the time.)
      –If you think someone is talking down to you or manplaining, they probably are.

    2. t-vex*

      As a Floridian you should know that flip flops are completely acceptable footwear for any and all occasions, locations, times of day, and weather conditions.

  190. SmallTownBigIdeas*

    Honestly for me it was how many of my coworkers/managers were not college grads like I was. (I’m going somewhere with this, hang on.) After having it drilled into me in high school that I wouldn’t amount to anything without a degree, and college convincing me to stay on for an MBA “because everyone has a Bachelors now so to be competitive you have to get a Masters”, I was gobsmacked how most of my bosses had GEDs. In the corporate world and I am not kidding. Degrees aren’t everything, but I wasn’t prepared for how little certain corporate entities actually wanted degrees despite what their job posts said.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Mmm, reminds me of that old letter from a college grad all affronted that his boss wasn’t as educated as he was. It really does get drilled into us from a young age!

      1. Snack rolls?*

        A friend who worked in Hr said that saying you want a certain kind of degree is just a new way of saying “no weirdos”.

  191. Qwerty*

    Explain what flex time and core hours mean for your company and your team. Be very explicit, even for experienced hires as this varies wildly from company to company. Do they need to let their manager/team know? Block out their schedule? Use sparingly for important stuff like importantly or can every day be very different?

    Also what’s normal around lunch at your company. Basically be explicit around any norms at your company.

    Sick leave is a confusing one. Recent students are used to having to go to class no matter what and may show up a sniffly mess insisting they are fine because they are used to having to “power through”.

    Professional dress norms are confusing. Especially for women. I ranted about this many times in my youth. I don’t even mean dress codes, just there’s like 5 standard outfits for dudes on the spectrum from casual to formal and women have a 3D maze to navigate.

    1. Qwerty*

      Also give new hires a “mentor” who they can talk to about the really simple stuff. Like, the questions that you might feel dumb asking.

  192. Ann O'Nemity*

    I thought “9-5” office jobs were just that – you show up at nine, leave at five, and that’s it.

    I didn’t understand what business-casual meant and sometimes confused dressy with professional.

    I didn’t (and still don’t!) understand how grown-ass adults can leave a huge mess in the kitchen and expect someone else to come clean it up. Yet this seems to be the “norm” in most offices I’ve worked in.

    1. ecnaseener*

      I mean, my 9-5 truly keeps to those hours (ok, 8:30-5) most of the time! I wouldn’t want new workers to assume it was always code for something else.

      2. Tuesday*

        I do think that even in jobs like this with set hours, it can be frowned upon to leave right at 5 on the dot. It makes it seem like you’re just waiting around for the workday to be over (or so I’ve been told). Which is annoying! And every workplace is different, but mine is very much “if you leave exactly on time every day you’re not a team player.”

        1. ecnaseener*

          It can be, so I would tell someone new to the workforce to observe the norms of their team on this sort of thing. I wouldn’t want them to assume they definitely can’t leave at 5 for appearance’s sake, any more than I want them to assume they definitely can.

    2. Tyra*

      I remember a girl who worked outside of the main office for my last job (and I assume was told she needed to be dressed smart for her trip to HQ) came to a meeting in a formal black maxi dress with a thigh high slit – I definitely think dressy v professional should be better clarified when people are starting out.

      1. Kayem*

        Definitely! Plus each employer really needs to define the line between business, business casual, and casual. The range can be enormous depending on employer, industry/field, and region.

  193. Olivia*

    The biggest one for me was learning, when wanting to try new things, which changes were decisions that had to be made by a larger group of people, and which changes I could do on my own.

    It’s such a HUGE grey area and it’s different from company to company, role to role.

  194. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

    It has been so long that it is hard to remember, but my first job out of college was a terrible environment with bad practices, and it didn’t represent any standard or norm that would apply elsewhere. Unfortunately, being a newbie to the workforce, I didn’t know that. So at my next job, I had to re-learn what was normal in an office environment.

    In the early 2010s, I remember starting to see the influx of recent college grads that kept surprising me with their behavior and expectations. They seemed completely different and the typical office norms were unknown to many of them. I recall this one new hire, a young woman, who randomly started bringing her dog to work!! And no – no one else did that! No one would have dared. (She was asked to stop doing that, duh.) But she seemed to feel entitled in multiple ways. The young hires expected a lot of rapid advancement and promotion, for example. It was a curious shift.

  195. First-time anon commenter*

    Calling supervisors/people above me in the organisational hierarchy by their first names felt pretty dang weird at first — same as when I was at uni and felt weird about addressing lecturers etc by anything other than ‘Dr. [Surname]’. It’s probably a combination of a holdover from mandatory schooling and my general instinct to be formally courteous with people I don’t know well, regardless of social hierarchy (I’m Autistic as heck and NT-style social skills are…not my forte)

  196. The Other Shift*

    That the rules for working on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd shift were so different. (This is in a hospital.) On first shift you were not allowed to make or receive personal phone calls which led to parents hiding under their desks to make sure their kids got off the bus ok. On 2nd shift you could spend your whole shift online shopping and do nothing at all.

    Dress codes. We worked in the lobby of the hospital. When the doors opened and the -20 degree air blew in it was cold! We could not wear ‘appropriate’ clothing such as heavy sweaters or boots. We had to wear regular shoes and blouses. A suit jacket was considered ok. As an older person I was the subject of an all hands meeting to address my continued wearing of a heavy sweater and boots. Apparently *all* the patients were complaining I looked unprofessional wearing appropriate clothing for the circumstances.

    1. curmudgeon*

      I’ve never understood complaining about an employee’s dress. Unless they’re wearing something extremely offensive, who cares?

    2. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      I’m speechless. Who are these patients? all of them, no less. In all my times coming into a hospital, either for an appointment or to visit a family member, did it even register with me what the person in the lobby was wearing – forget being outraged about them wearing season-appropriate clothes. Who has the energy for that when they or their loved one are in a hospital? I have a suspicion it was one or two people at most, and your management decided “all the patients” would sound better.

      Also, I’d be pretty miffed if I found myself trapped in an all-hands meeting about a colleague’s brazen wearing of sweaters in -20 degree weather. What a waste of everyone’s time.

      1. Pudding*

        Or a patient/family member expressed concern about the temperature of the lobby and used the employee in heavy sweaters as a supporting point, and since the hospital doesn’t plan to do anything about the temperature they attack the employee’s clothing choices instead.

  197. JoeyJoeJoe*

    This is so minor, but I have had it happen twice now. Even though we all refer to each other and (most) colleagues by our first names, when something is alphabetized by name (say author list, or attendee list for a briefing) it should be done by last name.

  198. mcm*

    What to wear was hard for me to catch on to at my first “real” job.
    I think also many new hires could use some guidance around the fact that 1) training them is important, but usually it’s something someone is doing in addition to their existing work, so it’s very helpful if they can try to find something on their own first and be appreciative of people’s time but also 2) it’s ALWAYS better to ask for clarification than try to muddle through when you’re confused and mess something up. I find new hires err too far one way or the other (how could you not, honestly), so combining both of them is helpful, I think.

  199. AnotherSarah*

    I was super confused about when I needed to ask to go somewhere and when I didn’t. It’s so worth clarifying when/if that’s necessary–do you need to ask/tell/neither if you’re:
    -going to get up for a quick break (might be necessary if you’re front desk!)
    -taking lunch (also when and how much time do you get? can you sub out a long coffee at 10am for lunch?)
    -going to an appointment (I would go out for quick PT appointments and not tell anyone–I didn’t realize I had to!)
    -leaving the building at all, even for a run to the coffee shop downstairs

    And whom do you alert? And what if that person is busy? Having that spelled out for me probably would have helped me a lot in early jobs.

  200. An Australian in London*

    My manager took me aside to say that I shouldn’t wear pale socks with black business shoes and a charcoal suit. It was maybe my third job ever.

    Later on in the same job (many years later, different manager), my then-manager told me I needed to learn to drink beer for work and after-work functions. That might be specific to Australia though. :)

  201. Introvert Teacher*

    I worked at a school for over a decade.
    In front of students and to each other during the school day if you weren’t close buddies: Mr./Ms. LastName for colleagues; Mr./Ms. LastName for administrators; Mr./Ms. FirstName for office assistants and custodians.
    Close buddies went by first name when not in front of students or in hallway conversation; also we called our administrators by first name when emailing and addressing them (not in front of students). Not a hard/fast rule with the students thing but it was more of us modeling the last name/honorific usage for the kids. Oh and there was exactly one person who called herself and made the kids and staff call her “Teacher FirstName”.

    1. Flower necklace*

      I work at a high school. We all use Mr./Ms. Lastname in front of students, but it’s also common to use it with each other, depending on the degree of familiarity. For example, I’d call a teacher in my department by his first name, but I’d address a teacher in another department, who I don’t know that well, as “Mr. Lastname” in an email. And I always call administrators Mr./Ms. Lastname.

  202. WorkingYourselfToDeath*

    I’m not sure if this is what you’re looking for, but I’m always stunned at the number of hourly workers who think they have to work off the clock to accomplish everything-and the companies who don’t put a stop to it. I’m talking jobs where it’s easy to get injured, and people don’t seem to grasp that if they’re working off the clock and get hurt, workers comp isn’t going to cover them.

  203. I'm Just Here For the Cats!*

    Not sure if this counts but not chitchatting and asking how my coworkers are doing. So my first job after college was a high intense call center. worked there for 3 years and it was very much run by the numbers. you were expected to take X amount of calls, and you were ranked on things like hold time, call transfers, and how many seconds a call was. (yes seconds). As you can imagine this was very stressful and if you went to a supervisor there wasn’t any room for anything but facts (whats happening, what you’ve done to fix the issue).

    So after I left that nightmare I got a job at an online school that did professional development and licensures like real estate and insurance type of stuff. I was over the phone and email still but it was a lot less hectic. Every second was not counted and I didnt get chewed out if I had a 10-minute call.
    I thought everything was going well. After several months I got a stern talking too by mydepartment manager. She said that there were complaints from our senior reps (those we went to for help) because I didn’t ask them how their day was when I would call or go to their desk. The reasoning was, they don’t take incoming calls from clients so they don’t have as much interaction as the others so you need to talk with them more. Never mind that when we had slow time we would all turn around and chat from our cubicles. Or that I as very friendly and talked to people during breaks, before and after meetings, etc. I just didn’t think it was appropriate to leave a student on hold for extra 5 minutes just to ask my coworker what she thought of the muffins in the break room!

  204. Pratman*

    That telling someone discretely that they are crossing a social norm for the workplace is a kindness, since it is possible to simultaneously violate 6 unspoken norms in front of a broad swath of the company’s management hierarchy and no one will say a word, but they will judge…oh, will they judge!

  205. Justin D*

    Don’t care so much about things that aren’t really my problem. Like maybe some document library is a little disorganized or the brand standards aren’t perfectly followed for internal docs but it doesn’t matter.

    Being the smartest and cleverest and most educated person means little to nothing. Do the job as described and get along with people.

    Balancing self interest with the interests of the team or company.

    Put yourself in the boss’s shoes, understand what they want and need.

    Don’t try to make excuses or get defensive when you make mistakes, own it, apologize, get ahead of it, have a plan before reporting it to your boss.

    1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

      Also, don’t be smart or educated “at” people. Don’t prove how knowledgeable you are at someone else’s expense. I’ve had a lot of jobs where I was literally the smartest person there, but the least experienced. Experience actually counts for a lot more in a lot of places. A person who is smart but an ass is just an annoying smart ass.

  206. Tuesday*

    I do think that even in jobs like this with set hours, it can be frowned upon to leave right at 5 on the dot. It makes it seem like you’re just waiting around for the workday to be over (or so I’ve been told). Which is annoying! And every workplace is different, but mine is very much “if you leave on time every day you’re not a team player.”

  207. PerplexedPigeon*

    This! Right out of high school I joined the Air Force, and the rule was “if you’re early, you’re on time; if you’re on time you’re late!” and people meant it. 20 years out of the service and I still struggle to be on time and not early to everything. Or to be a little late if I need to stop at the bathroom on the way. And not get anxious if other people are 2-5 minutes late to meeting me…they didn’t ghost me, they’re just normal people.

  208. no one reads this far*

    I’m sure I’m echoing a lot of other commenters here but: BE CLEAR WHEN ASKING QUESTIONS/MAKING REQUESTS.

    We used to have a Sales guy who would send the most circuitous emails without a clear point so often my manager was left asking “So what do you actually want, (Annoying Man)?” 3 emails later he’d get to his point. I’m convinced he did things that way so people would get so fed up, they’d just say yes to get his requests off their plates.

  209. gingerbread*

    I think for me I was surprised to learn that sometimes you might be asked to perform a small part of a task, or sit in on a meeting to take notes while someone else has a conflict… I would at first just assume once I did that small task, my involvement in the project was over. Or, all I needed to do during the meeting was “take notes” and not necessarily engage. I know now that usually if I get pulled into any part of a project, whether it’s just completing a small task or filling in for someone else, most of the time that’s going to morph into a more significant task sometime in the future, so best to engage as much as possible and retain as much knowledge about the task/project at hand as possible. Maybe you only attended 2 meetings over the past 6 months, but if there comes a gap in the schedule and your boss wants you to take over a more significant role, they are going to expect you to be up to speed, since, after all, you’ve been “involved” for the past 6 months.

  210. Mill Mike*

    One that I’ve been surprised that even some of my more senior colleagues managed to miss:

    “Cost Centres” vs. “Profit Centres” and how that affects office politics.

    A good company treats it’s employees fairly regardless, but it can still come as a rude awakening to suddenly find out that, even though you make the thing the rest of the company is set up to sell, you’re seen as costing the company money, and the sales people are seen as bringing the money in, and that that inevitably has at least some effect on the power dynamics.

  211. Kiki is the Most*

    I wish someone had pointed out to me (sooner than later) about what my job duties truly were at my first job in an office. Or that I had asked for the exact job description, stuck to it, and stood up for myself. Being one of three women in a large, male-dominated industry/office, I was the one to pick up lunch, dry cleaning, and the crappy calls. NONE of these things were part of my job whatsoever. I could kick myself for the idiot I was starting out.

    Now I make sure that the newbies know and understand their job expectations!

  212. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Don’t buy too many of any one piece of clothing until you’ve worn it in the office a few times. I love long flowing skirts come up but they don’t get along with 5-wheeled office chairs. Then I bought shorter skirts, and was told they were too short for the office.
    Which leads me to my 2nd piece of advice: when picking a wardrobe for a brand new career, look at real-world people not TV & movies or fashion runways.

  213. Not That Kind of Lawyer*

    Microwave and fridge etiquette.
    Do not microwave seafood
    Do not let the popcorn burn
    Do not take other people’s food
    Take home or throwaway perishable food

    1. UKgreen*

      I came here to say ‘have we seriously got to nearly 1000 comments without mentioning the ‘don’t microwave fish’ thing’!

  214. TechWorker*

    This is country specific and I do not mean it as a boast.
    Know your employment law.. in the U.K. if you have booked vacation but then are sick (enough that you couldn’t work) you can ‘convert’ that to sick leave and use the vacation later. Now, I’ve never actually done this, it feels cheeky! But if you’re really ill during a holiday it’s worth knowing about as an option: https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave

    1. allathian*

      The same thing applies in Finland, at least in the public sector. The idea is that you’re sick on company time, not your own. That said, if you get sick in the middle of the long vac, (4 weeks is absolutely the norm in summer), you can’t convert it to sick leave. Converting vacation to sick leave always requires a doctor’s note, although we’re allowed to take 5 days at our own discretion in normal circumstances.

    2. amoeba*

      Same in Germany and Switzerland – doesn’t feel cheeky to me at all, after all, if I’m in bed with the flu, I’m not exactly getting the rest and relaxation the holiday is supposed to be for?
      (Unfortunately, the last time I got sick on vacation, it was on the weekend as well. Oh well.)

  215. LaLa*

    My boss has interns every year and this is what I advise:

    -Respond to all meeting requests. If you’re not sure, at least put yourself as tentative so people know you’ve seen it.
    – if your boss has an assistant, it does not mean they are your assistant too.
    – Be proactive. Ask questions. Take initiative. This doesn’t mean doing things without telling people or overstepping your bounds, but it does mean things like “what does that acronym stand for?” to “I’d like to gather that data and provide an analysis. Do you mind if I do that?” “When is that due?” “Should I work with Mary in accounting to get that data or is there someone else I should connect with?” Be helpful and interested but humble.
    – Watch how other people dress, decorate their offices, etc. We had one intern set up an elaborate coffee bar in her office and I’m pretty sure some of the equipment was out of policy. Everyone else used the break room coffee or bought theirs, but she was frothing milk on her desk. Another guy dressed in suits everyday for awhile when senior execs were in jeans.

    Most our interns are really great as they’ve already been prepped at their schools for working in offices, those are just the little things I notice though.

  216. ceekee*

    Honestly, I’ve come full circle on a lot of the things that initially surprised me. Which is to say, there were a number of things that surprised me, I felt embarrassed not to know them, but now that I’m older and know better I realize that I was right to be surprised about these things in the first place, because many “norms” were actually kind of screwed up or exploitative.

    For example, in my first jobs in food service and retail, I was surprised that we were expected to clock out before doing side work or attending staff meetings. I was told in no uncertain terms that of COURSE we wouldn’t do those things on the clock, they weren’t our “actual jobs,” and felt duly chastened. But now, of course, I realize that my surprise was appropriate, because my labor was being stolen.

    (I know this doesn’t totally answer the question, but it got me thinking about the slippery nature of “norms.”)

  217. Gigi*

    For a lot of people switching from retail to the office, you’re expected to engaged a certain level of “fakeness”, for lack of a better term.

    In retail, from Hamburgers to Designer Boutiques, I was used to turning to my coworkers and cool managers and say “This job/customer/client/corporate policy is bullshit, fuck this place” as part of our small talk. It was a huge culture shock to head to an office job and observe more covert ways of complaining about work.

    The way I explain it to my non-office friends is that Retail is New York (telling you outright) versus The South (the very subtle art of throwing shade). It’s still very frustrating, but I’ve gotten much better using at my office manners!

  218. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

    So, I’m going to put my old “Safety Person” hat on here. I had no clue about safety stuff when I started out. Zero.

    Not every job is in a nice, safe office where the biggest risk is tripping over a box left in the hall or lifting something too heavy. In fact, there are lots of low paid warehouse and manufacturing jobs that are really good for young people starting out.

    Safety rules are there for a reason. Many workplaces are glad you don’t know them, or will try to get around them to be “faster”. It’s no harm to them if you get injured, their workman’s comp insurance covers the (minimal) treatment. Get so hurt you can’t work? They can always replace you with another young, naive worker.

    So if the physical guard around a machine is in your way, don’t remove it to be faster. It’s there to keep you from getting hurt. Safety glasses are ugly, but scars and an eyepatch look worse. If they say “wear chainmail gloves to use a mandoline”, wear the gloves, you will not end up bleeding into the product. If they say “No long hair loose, no dangly jewelry, no loose sleeves”, pay attention, because there’s probably a machine that will grab those and pull you in, possibly killing you. “No closed toed shoes” means it – your toes can get smashed, and that hurts for years after the fact. Don’t get me started about chemical exposure – some everyday chemicals can cause lifelong damage.

    Even safety rules in an office are there for a reason. Slips, trip, falls and lifting accidents can lead to life long problems. For example, most computer sysadmins I know have bad backs from lifting equipment that is bulky and too heavy for them in their early career. Falling off of a stepstool can mess you up just as much as falling off of a big tall ladder if you fall just wrong.

    Do not horse around in a warehouse, on a shop floor, in a manufacturing plant, in a commercial kitchen or even in an office. It’s a job, not a playground.

    Safety is an ever improving field, and some of the stuff I was exposed to or did as a younger worker have come back to bite me now that I’m 61. The field of ergonomics was pretty sparse and not talked about when I started working, and I have the RSIs to prove it.

    Read safety manuals, material safety data sheets, and other stuff about workplace safety. Your company may, or may not, have a good safety training program. If you are working around machinery, even something simple like a conveyor belt, pay attention to the safety warnings. If your manager says there aren’t any, that right there is a big red flag. Don’t try to repair or “unjam” equipment that is running. That can get you hurt in many ways.

    I could write half a novel on basic safety stuff and the problems I’ve experienced, seen or been near to in my working life. If you have time to go down a rabbit hole, do a Google search on “Workplace safety XXXX” where XXXX is any type of equipment or industry.

    If you remember nothing else from me, remember this: “Safety Rules Are Written in Blood.”

    1. danmei kid*

      And if you work in a lab or around chemicals, commit by practice to muscle memory until you know exactly where the safety showers/eye wash/fire extinguishers are located in all areas.

    2. UKDancer*

      This so much. My great uncle was health and safety officer in most of his engineering jobs. He took it very seriously because in the days before machine guards he lost 2 fingers in an industrial accident. He didn’t want anyone else losing fingers so he made damned sure people knew safety rules existed for a reason.

  219. Gigi*

    For a lot of people switching from retail to the office, you’re expected to engaged a certain level of “fakeness”, for lack of a better term.

    In retail, from Hamburgers to Designer Boutiques, I was used to turning to my coworkers and cool managers and say “This job/customer/client/corporate policy is bullshit, screw this place” as part of our small talk. It was a huge culture shock to head to an office job and observe more covert ways of complaining about work.

    The way I explain it to my non-office friends is that Retail is New York (telling you outright) versus The South (the very subtle art of throwing shade). It’s still very frustrating, but I’ve gotten much better using at my office manners!

  220. Weasel*

    I remember the first time I was sick I had no idea how to “call in sick”. I was still living with my parents but I asked a fond acquaintance I knew on Facebook who was in his late 30s. He told me I just need to say that I’m sick and not coming in and that’s all the detail they need. I’m glad for it as young graduates seem to always give descriptions of their symptoms that are a bit TMI.

    It took me a few more years to work out that my office norms were that an email would suffice!

  221. Cedrus Libani*

    I was a bright-eyed engineering student, and it was the first day of my first real internship. My first assignment was to make a basic chocolate teacup. This was a test, of course. I was quite confident until I saw my workbench. It had all the tools I needed, plus…a five-gallon jug of chocolate syrup? Oh crap, I said to myself. But I didn’t want to show weakness in front of my new boss, so I just nodded and smiled. Challenge accepted!

    A week later, I led the boss over and presented my teacup. I also showed him the chocolate solids extractor that I’d cobbled together from spare parts. He stared at me. “Okay, that’s brilliant. But how do you know enough to do THAT, and yet…it didn’t occur to you to just use baker’s chocolate instead?”

    What I did not know, and the boss had forgotten to tell me, was that they had a supply room that would make Willy Wonka jealous. I could have taken whatever I needed. The syrup wasn’t there because I was supposed to use it, someone just left it on an empty workbench to get it out of the way.

    Lesson: be aware of what you’re optimizing for. In my case, I had spent my “career” in student-run labs, where the budgets were extremely tight. Nearly everything we had came from literal dumpster diving, or was otherwise begged, borrowed, or stolen. In such an environment, you take the resources you have as a given, and then you figure out what to do with them. The point of the exercise is to do something clever that demonstrates your skill, such that you can put it into your portfolio and talk about it in interviews.

    However, in the real world, supplies are relatively cheap and easily obtained; the constraint is the person-hours required to turn them into something useful. It’s different. My syrup teacup was in fact stunningly impressive in terms of demonstrated skill per unit of supplies ordered, but it was a total disaster in terms of results per unit effort, which is what I was actually meant to be optimizing.

  222. It's Me*

    – Exactly what a weekly is for, how to prepare for one, typically what is discussed, etc. This may be their first time even hearing the term!
    – Is there unspoken seating etiquette in bigger meetings?
    – Everything related to healthy boundaries: actual explicit expectations regarding overtime, if it’s a big deal to be five minutes late, all the things you do NOT need to share in the workplace (including when requesting time off or taking a sick day), who is safe to ask questions of, etc.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Lol this is the first time I’m hearing of “a weekly!” Google is less than helpful and the only noun meaning in the dictionary is a weekly newspaper, but I’m guessing a weekly status report or something?

  223. Excellente!*

    When I started my first “real” job, it never occurred to me that I would have to work the week between Christmas and New Year’s. We didn’t have school that week. My dad took work off that week, and in college I was always home that week. It was a total shock when I went to file something and found a work letter in the file dated December 26. I don’t know what I expected, but I’m glad I found out before I just didn’t show up for a week the next December.

    1. Curmudgeon in California (they/them)*

      LOL!

      In tech, it’s very common to have the week between Christmas and New Years being a mandatory shutdown. But not if the company you are working for is an online retailer. In practice, even if the company doesn’t have a formal shutdown that week it is nearly a de-facto shut down because about half the office takes it off, including most of the managers, and nothing gets done anyway. But you have to reserve it off and make sure on-call is covered.

    2. TX_TRUCKER*

      Depending on the industry, Christmas time may be ridiculously busy. Many garbage collection companies in the USA ban or severely limit vacation between Christmas and New Year’s because so much extra waste in generated during that time. I always leave gifts for my driver and feel terrible they have to work even harder than usual, when many of us are relaxing.

  224. Lyngend (Canada)*

    Not so much as a work place norm (regular behaviour seen as acceptable). Rather the lack of legal training managers and/or employers have.
    And how often people say “well that happens everywhere so it’s not illegal”… Like dude that’s not how it works. (even had a manager assume that the organization’s lawyer, who is somehow involved in payroll, would just proactively information her that a law change would affect how they can do sick pay calculation)

    1. Lyngend (Canada)*

      Every single employer I’ve had has broken multiple laws. From employment to propane sale/dispensing regulations

  225. Fabulous*

    The difference between writing styles. Writing a paper for university is a lot different than writing instructions, training content, copy, or an email. I cringe when I think of all the writing samples I submitted for various writing jobs that were college essays!

  226. Andi*

    Speaking as someone who ran into this issue while checking the bathrooms at the office for supplies just last week, if you are in there, LOCK THE DOOR. I know, we’re all used to working from home and you don’t lock your bathroom door at home when you need to poop, but you really need to when you’re in the office. I now cannot unsee what I saw.

    If your company has a lot of flexibility on working remote vs the office, as mine does, make sure someone tells the new hires exactly what the expectations are. They get so stressed out wondering if they’re doing something wrong and it would solve a lot of problems if their manager just said directly, “Try to come in for the weekly client meeting on Thursday morning, otherwise, work wherever you want.”

    1. WillowSunstar*

      That and go find the farthest away bathroom for #2, don’t use the regular one for it unless you have a medical condition and no choice.

      1. amoeba*

        …what? I mean, we just have one bathroom on my corridor, anyway, but… it’s just the bathroom we use? Like, the other ones would be closer to other people’s offices, not sure how that would make anything better?
        (It’s single stall anyway, though, so not like it would be embarrassing or anything…)

    2. Eater of Cupcakes*

      What kind of adult doesn’t know to lock the bathroom door? Seriously. How did the situation end? Did the person in question apologize, or…?

  227. Chickadee*

    I spent a couple years bouncing around the country and working short term positions in remote areas. They offered low pay and free housing – which meant I lived with my coworkers. (And in the case of an absolute nightmare internship, my supervisors.) I struggled heavily with separating my personal and work life, or knowing what tone to adopt when talking to my coworkers/housemates, especially when I was off the clock.

    I’m a little sad it never occurred to me to contact HR about all the shady stuff at the nightmare internship… everyone was aware of the issues and it would have cost me a recommendation letter, but it would have been nice to build a paper trail and help future interns. (I wonder if anyone has sued yet?)

  228. Queen Avocado Delilah*

    Here’s one that still makes me cringe: You should dial down the humour for the first few days/weeks when people are still getting to know you. In my first month of my first ever ‘big job’, I made a joke about how I didn’t want to take on any extra assignments (in the spirit of ‘Oh work, how tedious! Everyone hates it!’) and it did….not go down well.

  229. frida*

    Maybe only observable in the past decade or so, but the amount of work discussions that happen over instant messaging (Gchat, Slack, etc). As a kid in the 2000s I remember my parents answering work emails on their Blackberry phones and by the time I entered the workforce I was kind of surprised that I was told a Slack counted as “in writing” (think this still depends on the workplace but still). And now I’m finding that Gen Z colleagues really struggle with email and treat it more like messaging!

  230. Sarah*

    This is a very interesting question and yes great thing to keep in mind as a manager with a new hire. It’s very difficult though to ever think of everything, so if at all possible I much prefer to assign a buddy and/or encourage peers to help the new hire. This, plus a culture where we can all ask questions always, will prevent 99% of the situations where a new hire feels lost.

  231. Sanity Lost*

    You do not have to be friends with your coworkers nor do they need your life story or day to day activities outside of work.

    That took me a long time to learn and I still struggle with it sometimes.

    1. WillowSunstar*

      I had a younger coworker for several years who struggled with it. He did not understand why someone more than 20 years older than him, literally from a different country and opposite gender as him, and nothing common with him other than working for the same company didn’t really want to be close friends with him. That and he frequently made rude comments about women, apparently disregarding totally that I am a woman and present as such.

  232. Miette*

    Here’s a bit of advice a manager (now close friend) gave me early on: When in a meeting, you must give the impression that you are engaged in the goings-on, even if it’s boring af. This is as easy as sitting forward in your chair, obviously following the conversation, clearly taking notes, etc. At the time, the CEO had been making noises about “these kids,” or something. I took it to heart and got very good at putting up appearances in meetings from then on, especially with management in the room.

    This is all to say that when you are young, you are unfortunately and unfairly judged by older colleagues based on irrelevant and outdated norms, so the quicker you learn the rules, the better your experience will be.

  233. WingedRocks*

    Keeping Slack, Teams, or whichever IM system is used on office computers active and accurately reporting your status (online, away, etc)

  234. No longer a Noob*

    As a general rule, the only person above your level that you’re authorized to talk to is YOUR manager. So, let’s say your department and another department both use the Vanasaurus for off-site programs and you’re supposed to sign it out for days you need it, but Old Mr. Rex just signs it out for every day because he feels entitled to use it for his trips to Wendy’s for coffee. Don’t email Mr. Rex’s supervisor to ask why he’s allowed to do that, because it might really upset Mr. Rex’s already stressed out boss and said boss might storm into your office area declaring that he doesn’t have to answer to a “schlub” in another department. And then you might have to fill in your boss and grand boss on the drama you caused. And you still have to go to Mr Rex if it’s okay to take the Vanasaurus (as if it’s a big favor) and get the keys from him personally while relplies, “sure thing baby”.

    For example. This is the kind of thing that could happen.

  235. Mother of Cats*

    As a younger millennial, probably how technologically inept I really was.

    On the first day of my first full-time office job, my boss left me to assemble my computer setup myself and I just… didn’t know how. I had to ask her to help me figure out which cables went into which plug. It wasn’t a huge deal, but it was definitely an eye-opener.

    I’m just grateful that I had a couple jobs and research experiences in Uni that involved Excel. If I had no familiarity with that (which a lot of people my age do not) I would’ve been even more lost.

  236. stop assuming I'm married*

    The default title for a woman is Ms. NOT Mrs. Despite the fact that titles aren’t even necessary in my workplace, whenever a prospective hire uses a title unnecessarily, they *also* use the wrong one! Don’t make assumptions about the marital status of a woman – and even if a woman is married, many married women prefer to use Ms.

  237. HowDoesSheDoItAll?*

    We’ve had a lot of turnover at my workplace because of retirements/pandemic job shifting. A couple things I’ve noticed about new employees (no matter their age or career level):

    1) When you’re new to an office culture, it’s best to be an observer for a while. Sounds strange, but don’t be the first to speak up at meetings. You may think your insights will impress the boss, but often, you don’t know the history or back-story about the project/topic (or the personality of the manager, etc.), and you may end up insulting people’s work without knowing it.

    2) Don’t call attention to yourself. Again, I know this sounds stifling. But until you know the office culture, dress conservatively, keep phone calls private, show up to work on time and leave on time, don’t take a long vacation before you’re worked there at least six months, maybe even a year. You have to earn the right to be idiosyncratic (or “weird”) or have more flexibility in your job.

    3) Don’t talk politics or religion. Seriously, just don’t. We’re getting paid for our work, not to listen to your opinion on the election or the Supreme Court or hot-button social issues.

  238. Just me*

    First ever job I had I asked permission to go to the restroom. The office manager gently informed me that I could go whenever I needed to, no need to ask.
    First job I had in the education field, one of my coworkers had been my sixth grade PE teacher. It was very difficult for me to call her by her first name instead of Mrs. Last name (which she said made her feel old).

    1. tamarack etc.*

      Elaborate?

      (In France it’s not fully legal to eat your lunch at your desk. Eating meals is to take place at a location that is dedicated to eating, and the employer has to make this possible [generally speaking].)

  240. Susan has left the building*

    My tip would be for the trainers of allllll new hires, not just brand newbies to office jobs.
    Your first few days, there is a TON of information thrown at you. Please, do not go over important information only once, and just in the first two days. It’s a bunch of info and brains shut down with the constant barrage of data. More should be written down, so I can refer to it later, not just my sketchy notes.
    Seriously, my first week, I’m just trying to remember where my desk is, the names of my direct coworkers, and all my new passwords.
    Wait until Friday to show me how to set, or un-set, the alarm.
    Is there an ‘official’ way to answer my phone?
    Give me the un-official dept info like group emails need to be addressed by rank- starting with the dept head, senior then junior. Or if there is a seating arrangement for dept meetings.
    Or Tuesdays, Steve brings donuts.
    Or your first Friday the whole team will go out to lunch (I’m an introvert.. first weeks I need a warning, I use my lunch hours to decompress and un-people. I need a heads-up to prepare for ‘people-ing’ and that I’m not getting a break today.)
    Do I need to do any misc tasks- turn on dishwasher, turn off lights in my dept, salt the sidewalk, transfer my phone at end of night, water the plant in the hallway, make coffee.
    Can I wear headphones? Or stream music?

  241. Parmaynu*

    I was 100% taken aback when I was informed in my first “proper” office job that when I had no work to do (all the tasks I had been assigned were complete, I’d asked my colleagues and supervisor if there was anything I could pick up or help out with and it was always “nothing right now but will let you know”), it was unacceptable to sit and read a book at my desk (this was the mid/late 90s so no Internet and even email was a relatively new thing) – I just had to sit there and “look busy” and answer the phone when it occasionally rang. It was pointless and emotionally exhausting and I was just like SERIOUSLY WHY.

  242. Vio*

    One of my first jobs after leaving school was with a temp agency where we were all sent to a factory, given a tour and at each part of the tour they asked for volunteers to do that job. The idea of choice at work was so surprising to me and my social anxiety so much that I kept quiet. By the end of the tour there were just three or four of us left who hadn’t volunteered for anything and we were told there wasn’t anything for us to do and sent home. Later I got a phonecall from the agency telling me off for being “unwilling to work”. I’d gone the whole tour expecting to be told what to do and never realising how bad it looked that I didn’t volunteer for any of the jobs.

    Also at a work experience placement during school I was in an office. I was given assignments and when I finished them I put them in the bosses in tray. Then I sat at my desk and read a book. Obviously I should have either located the boss or found someone else to ask for more work but as a fifteen year old kid I didn’t realise that and just expected that the norm was to do the work you were given. The idea of asking for more work honestly never occurred to me, I was so firmly in the school mentality of how that would seem overly keen and lead to ridicule.

  243. El Esteban*

    The biggest adjustment for me was learning the difference between a teacher and a boss. A teacher’s job is to help you succeed. There are certainly bad teachers who don’t care, and aloof college faculty who don’t care, but for the most part, teachers have a vested interest in seeing you succeed (personally). Managers don’t. There are plenty of good managers, and I’m lucky to have one right now. But by definition, a managers’ loyalty is to the company.

    1. Happy*

      That is super sad that you have had that experience.

      All of my managers have seen part of their job as being to help me succeed (and I’ve seen it the same way when I was a manager). Managers are successful when their teams are successful.

      1. tamarack etc.*

        I think you’re both right. Even good managers who care about their team being successful are *still* not your teachers.

        This distinction is also what makes the situation of graduate students (at least in North America) so uncomfortable. They are treated as students when it suits the institution and as employees when THAT suits the institution. I was glad to go back to grad school, but also very motivated to end that unpleasant state.

  244. tamarack etc.*

    My very first job, which happened to be in an office, everything was new. I had no idea what people did all day long. I was positively surprised that there wasn’t someone on everyone’s back every second and that stuff like going to the supply closet to get pens counted as work time (it didn’t count as “working on my homework!”). There was a fair amount of general chit-chat like you’d have with neighbors. Also, I was supposed to do data entry for an engineer (parts lists), but he was behind so couldn’t give me anything. He handed me some floppy disks “to check out what’s on them”, and what turned out to be on them were early computer games.

    Much later, recently, when I went back to academia after a career in the software industry, the environment was a big change from the corporate environment, but I’d been a grad student before, and was comfortable with some of the parameters of a university.

    The biggest eye-opener was this: I went from staff (on a federal contract that got renewed regularly) to PhD student. My original funding fell through, so my PI wanted to keep me working on the contract tasks that I had been doing as a regular employee. It turned out, though, that even though they could cover my salary (at a MUCH lower rate than before) they could not cover my tuition & fees. So there was a scramble, and I realized for the first time that my advisor wasn’t very good at the whole team-managing. My co-adviser, who covered it from a different grant, asked me what went wrong with the plan, and I told her. That’s when she said something like, “Oh, dear, no, that’s something that should totally have been possible to solve. What [main advisor] should have told to [federal agency contact is]: ‘Let’s have my fiscal person talk with your fiscal person to figure out how to make this happen.'” I’ve remembered these magical words since then, and they’ve served me very well.

  245. BiblioNicole*

    This sounds incredibly stupid but, it’s okay to take not only your lunch, but your full lunch, AND not work during it.
    Until my current job I exclusively worked at places where eating at your desk while working OR not taking your lunch (or at least not your full lunch) was the norm and not discouraged.
    While I’m getting a lot better about it, my boss will still remind me anytime a need to move my lunch break comes up that I need to take my full lunch. She claims it’s because she doesn’t want to get sued, but I’m pretty sure I would need to be the one to file a suit and that’s not going to happen.

    1. raida*

      As a public servant here in Oz, our managers are responsible for us taking sufficient breaks – which means either they sign off on a timesheet that has not got a big enough break, HR blocks it within a day and lets them know it’s not an acceptable timesheet and overtime needs to be retroactively done (paaaaaaperwork), which includes reasons for the break not being taken.
      OR
      they agree to sign off on a timesheet that shows a full break but know the staff didn’t actually do that, thereby fraudulently filling in the documentation.

      Both options are sufficient for managers to ensure staff are taking their legally required (not entitled, required) breaks, because it’s their arse on the line.

  246. ENTJane*

    After an entire lifetime (I’m talking literally since toddlerhood) of side-eyeing everyone’s comments that women in science aren’t allowed to be feminine and being a working adult means giving up your individual fashion style, yet no one ever giving a specific example of an actual scientist who ever TRIED to just keep looking the way they like and then been told they have to stop, my boss told me my usual pastel goth counts as business casual. VICTORY!

  247. raida*

    an extension from training newbies in fast food, I learnt to ask questions.

    “Refresh the layer in TRIS” – okay, what’s ‘tris’?
    “Sure just grab a tea or coffee” – where’s the tea, coffee, sugar, milk, kettle, mugs? (public service, none of this except the kettle and cups are supplied, I used another person’s supplies the first day – glad I asked)
    “send the ED a message in Notes” – who’s the ED? What’s Notes? (Lotus Notes, and you use the person’s first or last name to find them it turned out, so good questions!)

    And, of course, I highly recommend a notebook or digital equivalent for acronyms!
    Just my team alone is BI&P, updating the NPD, RoSCA, PAR, CES with files to EY for the CIA team, running workflows on our EC2’s… very valuable to start learning acronyms and using the full name in communications along with the acronym so you have some idea what people are talking about – and if it’s anything to do with you!

  248. Lily Potter*

    Late to the party but thought of one
    “No answer is a still an answer” – in other words, by not reacting or responding to something, you’re still making a decision. The world will not wait for you to respond to something before moving on. If you’re not able to answer a text or an email for a while, simply let the person asking know that you’re “on it” and will respond by “x”. Otherwise, they’re going to take your “no response” as an answer in and of itself.

    Closely related. Luckily I didn’t have to learn this one but I’ve seen young people need to: Ghosting, in any form, is cowardly. Pretending you “didn’t see the message” is bullshit, especially if it was a text, since 20-somethings look at their phone hundreds of times an hour.

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