weekend open thread – February 17-18, 2024

by Alison Green on February 16, 2024

This comment section is open for any non-work-related discussion you’d like to have with other readers, by popular demand.

Here are the rules for the weekend posts.

Book recommendation of the week: Come and Get It, by Kiley Reid. The lives of a college RA, three dorm roommates, and a visiting writer intertwine in surprising ways. It’s about race, money, bad choices … and it’s so, so good.

* I make a commission if you use that Amazon link.

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{ 1,357 comments }

{ 1,357 comments… read them below }

  1. Weekend Warrior*

    Catification ideas? We’re planning to get a new kitty soon after saying goodbye to our 16 yo tortie last year and are looking to making our house more stimulating for a new young cat. We like the idea of switching out cardboard boxes and other temp constructions and also building some more permanent things, e.g. steps up to and high shelves linking our Billy bookcases in the office.
    We know there’s no predicting what a cat will like and what it’ll turn its nose up at but what’s the best catification thing you’ve tried? The worst?

    1. PleaseNo*

      Get 2 cats! Life’s better with a friend, you avoid single cat syndrome, you save 2 lives, and they will have a friend around always!

        1. Weekend Warrior*

          There are a lot of bonded pairs for adoption but someone needs to take the crotchety singletons advertised as “needs to be only cat in home”. :)

          2. Helvetica*

            Exactly. I get so frustrated with the advice about getting 2 cats – I wanted one cat and I took a cat who gets stressed out by other cats, on purpose. There are plenty of cats out there who don’t need a partner.

          3. RC*

            Definitely get one of those, then! I always see those guys and (also we are at our cat max right now for the space we have) I wish I could take them but I will never have <2 cats.

            Re: toys and stuff: maybe wait and see what the agency says? Because every cat is different, but maybe they had a fosterer who can attest they like the scrunchy rug ones or the circle ball one or a particular type of wand toy?

            2 of ours currently love lying in a shoebox on the couch. We put a little blanket in it but they seemed to like it anyway. There’s just no telling with cats lol

      2. Clara Bowe*

        +1 If you are getting a kitten, get 2 kittens. Built in playmate and energy expended. Also, check out Kitten Lady’s education playlist. Lots of good info there.

    2. RLC*

      Anything tunnel-like or cave-like is a hit with our crew (4 cats, ages 6-10, all adopted as adults). High and secure perching spots with non slippery surfaces to jump and land upon.

    3. Melissa*

      The worst thing I bought was the cardboard scratch toys – the kittens loved them but they shredded and there were tiny bits of cardboard all through the house forever. Focus on rope ones instead.

      1. Sloanicota*

        but take it from me, don’t use sisal-like toys if you have sisal rugs. It seems obvious in retrospect!

      2. Porch Screens*

        Alternatively, the cardboard scratchers seem like they’re generally a big hit with most any cat so if you don’t mind the mess, they’re great. They’re also cheap if you need or want something temporary while you work on getting stuff that’s sisal/wood/etc.

      3. RLC*

        With the rope scratchers and anything else with rope, keep an eye on your cat to see if they try to eat bits of torn-off or unravelled rope. Two of ours try to eat the loose bits. Unbeknownst to us one cat ate a long strand which briefly lodged in his bowels. Thankfully it passed without surgical intervention but gave us some scary hours at veterinarian.

        1. Melissa*

          Yes! Also never leave hair elastics or gift ribbon lying around, that’s another trip to the vet to avoid.

      4. The Cat is There*

        My cat only does the cardboard ones. If they aren’t around, the next stop is our furniture. I’ll take little bits of cardboard over shredded furniture any day. But you just can’t know before the cat is there.

      5. RC*

        Ohhh yes scratchers! I’d say (if you don’t mind the mess) cardboard or sisal, which is more durable, but DO NOT get the carpet-covered ones because they just get torn to shit (I recently re-sisaled some carpet legs on our cat tree because the carpet was falling off and it looks so much better!)

        I don’t mind the cardboard ones because I know they can go in the recycling/compost which I’m not sure about the other stuff. Just have a vacuum out

    4. BellaStella*

      A friend just built cat shelves into her walls in one bedroom at various heights and including sling shelves for lounging plus two cat trees with different things like posts and shelves. Also she got the idea off of insta and bought stuff online. installation took special molly bolt type things. have fun!

      1. Sloanicota*

        I got my cat a heated window seat, and she loved it. I do think it’s a big ugly, but … the things we do for our pets, I guess, haha. She was an adult cat, though, I don’t think a kitten would be *as* enthused about a heated perch.

    6. All Monkeys are French*

      Catio! My cats love going out to watch birds, sniff the breeze, or bask in the sun. I love that they can do it while staying safe from cars and predators.

    7. Euphony*

      Definitely shelves and anything else you can add so the cat can traverse multiple rooms at different heights. They also provide a safe space for the cat to observe visitors from. If you have a high energy cat it’s worth investing in a cat wheel too – one of mine absolutely loves running on the wheel. Radiator and window beds are nearly always a hit. Especially if there is a bird table just outside so they can watch birds in between naps.
      I’d also suggest a recheck of the house to make sure there are no exposed cables, toilet seats are down etc. Just because the previous cat didn’t make a mess doesn’t mean you won’t have to fish the new cat out of the toilet (yes I did find this out the hard way)

      1. I take tea*

        We got a couple of cats many years ago. While exploring their new place one of them managed to jump straight into a sink full of soapy water. Poor kitty, but it did mean that she learned from the beginning, that the counters are not for cats.

    8. fposte*

      My friend added step ledges to her built in bookcase and then a partial lip on the top corner shelf, then put a cushion in there. Several cats in succession have adored it, so I think your Billy plan is a good one.

    10. Cat Wrangler*

      Look up outdoorsavannah on Instagram. I hope we can install a few of his changeable wall mount ideas for our cat someday. (She does not like other cats, and also expects all her playtime to involve humans…)

    11. don'tbeadork*

      Our current six like different things, but one of the most popular with the young set is a puppy playpen filled with packing paper. I leave the door to it open so they can go in and out as they please, and often can hear them rustling around in the paper. The youngest likes to toss tiny catnip infused balls around among the paper. Senior cat will go and just lounge in the paper pile if the youngsters aren’t using it.

      We get lots of things with paper as the filler in the packing boxes, so this is a good use for them until we gather everything up and hit the recycler. The playpen keeps the vast majority of the paper shreds contained in one spot so clean up is simplified.

      Ours also adore the Wicked Ball from CatIT. We have five or six because we need to keep a couple charging for quick distractions.

      We also have cat toy baskets filled with things like small balls, catnip mice or little skittery rings and things scattered throughout the house. The cats won’t put the toys back in them (alas), but they know where the toys are kept so they can fish out what they want. If the toy moves to a different room it may end up in a different basket during clean up, but the cats seem to appreciate the variable mixing of toys.

    12. Sleve*

      Default cats (there’s always exceptions) prefer to stretch up as high as possible when scratching, so any permanent features will benefit from the addition of a tall scratching post/column. Even a short cat is surprisingly long when stretching. An uninterrupted post as high as your waist wouldn’t go astray. Covering with carpet is a common choice. If you go this route, make sure any nails or staples are hidden where they won’t catch and hurt the cat’s claws. Rope or just bare wood are also popular choices. The classic combo of base-post-seat on top is a classic for a reason. It gets the cat up to a nice high vantage point with a tall scratching post included and it doesn’t take up much more space than a pedestal fan.

      My neighbours have sacrificed an entire window and built a small outdoor cat playpen somewhat like a vertical rabbit hutch on the outside of their house. The open window has a sheet of ply in it to keep the wind and rain out, and they just put a regular cat flap into the ply as though it were a thin wall. Their cats seem to love it and I’m seriously considering copying their idea and building one for myself.

      The worst thing? My cats loved beanbags, but one of them panics easily. She got stuck in a beanbag and peed in it out of panic. That was not a fun clean up. I’ve also heard some cats will mistake the sound and texture for litter and will intentionally use them as a litter tray. Beanbags are a risk. Definitely the worst catification I’ve tried.

    14. BikeWalkBarb*

      Reading an article about cat care recently I came across the information that they need to be warmer than we do, which is why they so often lie in the sun. I started putting a heating pad on a low setting on a pillow under a soft blanket and our cat LOVES IT.

      More high climbing towers has made a big difference in happiness for our grouchy guy. They’re positioned so he can look out windows (indoor-only cat) and he spends hours birdwatching.

      We had a problem with him wanting to scratch one particular spot on a sofa. Putting a scratching post there didn’t seem to matter. After reading a book on cat behavior that stressed rewards for good behavior I started giving him a small treat (a crunchy bit that’s supposed to be good for his teeth) and praising him in a special voice every time he used any of his scratching posts. I don’t know that the special voice matters–that just came automatically. This dramatically reduced the bad behavior and now I wish I’d started it from the beginning rather than waiting for bad behavior to show up and then trying to redirect. Claw Withdraw from Chewy.com has been helpful in this regard too–light citrusy scent (learned that cats don’t like citrus), doesn’t stain upholstery. Fortunately he prefers vertical scratching; if he were a horizontal scratcher my rugs would be shredded.

      Ours came from a shelter as a kitten and they gave us a couple of the toys he and his littermates had to play with. Continuing to stock up with those and ones like them worked for us; I don’t know if he imprinted on the crinkly foil ball or what, but that’s still a favorite.

      I’ve had cats for many years and had never read anything about their behavior. They’re not as low-maintenance as I’d always assumed and have a clear play-eat-sleep cycle I hadn’t really tuned into. I think we were shortchanging him on straight-up play time and we’ve tried to increase that. I pay more attention to his body language now and try to follow his cues. Watching My Cat from Hell with Jackson Galaxy also taught us quite a bit. Our guy is not very well socialized for humans other than us. He was a COVID kitten and maybe the isolation of his early life had an effect; he doesn’t like other humans to come into the house and I’ve never had an unfriendly cat before so this is distressing.

      Good luck with the new kittums!

  2. catios!*

    I know there are lots of cat people here so can we talk about catios? Do you have one, how’d you build it, any recommendations for setting one up? Is a screened in porch just as good or is official “catio” material better? I am finally thinking of making one for my cat overlords. All suggestions welcome.

    1. NL*

      We put a dog run outside on our back porch for our cat to sit in and she loves it. It’s completely secure but she can get fresh air and watch birds.

    2. BellaStella*

      The same friend I noted above has built a catio – found the instructions online, it is similar to a screened in small dog run but has a few logs and cat tree places to sit and also natural grass too. It is about 9 feet tall and secure on top too and about 5 feet deep, 9 feet wide.

    3. All Monkeys are French*

      I bought mine from Amazon. It’s a wood frame with hardware cloth screening and several shelves. The cats can access it 24/7 through a window cat flap. The hardware cloth is definitely more durable and secure than regular screening, but you might get away with screening if your cats don’t scratch and you’re not worried about predators.

    4. Morning Reading*

      I use my front porch as a catio, created simply by adding baby gates and blocking spaces small enough for cats to squeeze through. Only my older, fattest cat, who can’t leap over the railings and doesn’t fit between the rails, is allowed out there. It’s not ideal but it works for him. To allow the more agile kittens out there, I’d have to fence it better and higher. It’s not entirely secure so I supervise closely, or better, stay out with him, when Catus Emeritus is out there.
      If you have a screened in porch, that can work well, but you may need to improve the quality of the screens to make sure they are secure, to prevent your cats escaping and also to prevent other animals from visiting. If cats go outside, even on a porch, they could pick up fleas, etc, so be more vigilant than you usually have to with indoor-onlies.
      A question is whether to have a cat door or an arrangement where you need to let the cat out. If your catio is completely secure, depending on your environment, you can probably have a cat door. I used to have one and I was more lenient, in the summer, about letting my cats (at the time, two older large cats) out on their own, until one day a young raccoon walked in. That was the end of the cat door for me. Plus the younger smaller cats I have now don’t go out.
      I’m thinking of doing some kind of bay window arrangement for the future so I’ll watch this thread for ideas, thanks!

      1. Dog momma*

        Also if you let cat outside at all please make sure rabies vaccine is up to date. Rabies is fatal & endemic in North America and if there is even a possible exposure, the Department of Health is involved.
        We live in the South and raccoons are the most common vector in our county and small rural but growing town. Recently, there was 11 cattle and 4 humans exposed in a nearby county! Which was a new one for me.

      2. Tea and Sympathy*

        A friend made her balcony a catio. She weaved screen through the rails, and used a decorative rope fisherman’s net (like you would see on the wall of a seafood restaurant) from the railing top to the roof. It works really well, but she has adult cats whose heads won’t fit through the net holes, and who aren’t particularly interested in getting out and exploring the world.

    5. GoryDetails*

      I considered building a catio in past years, but my current trio of cats tend to be highly reactive to seeing other cats outside (as in redirected aggression on each other with horrifying screams, whirling balls of fur and claws, and many ripped-out tufts of fur), and I haven’t figured out how to dissuade the few-but-persistent neighborhood roving cats from coming onto my property.

      But if your cats aren’t set off by seeing strange cats (or dogs, or mail carriers, etc.) on their turf, a catio could be lovely. Just make sure that any screening is reinforced/blocked off from cat-claws; plexiglass panels down low, maybe, or hardware cloth or some such thing… I’ve seen metal screens damaged and nylon ones shredded by persistent cats, and with the metal screens they sometimes get claws caught in the mesh. So be cautious about that – though, again, it depends on the cat.

    7. TPS reporter*

      chicken wire is a good barrier if you’re building your own. stands up to those murder mittens!

      1. allathian*

        Yes, I was going to say this. The mesh is also large enough that it doesn’t trigger the urge to scratch as easily as screen door material does. Our next door neighbor has a chicken wire catio on her deck/porch, and I’ve never seen any of her three cats scratch it. It’s about 10 ft high, 6 ft long, and 3 ft deep. Her cats enjoy the sun on the ledges, especially in spring and early summer, and the shade under the ledges when it’s hot. One sunny but cool-even-by-our-standards summer when the maximum temperature barely hit 70 F (21 C), her black cat who loves the sun turned brown from the constant sunbathing!

    8. Kathenus*

      Depends on your cat, I have a screened in back porch which is pretty big and down at ground level (versus my screened front porch which is elevated), and my cat LOVES it. I’ve not had problems with her chewing on or scratching through the screen. I have a cat door in the back door to the porch and she has access pretty much any time I’m home, unless it’s really freezing out.

  3. Seeking Second Childhood*

    I’m going to start off with a small joys thread. My teenager’s sweetheart invited us to a chamber music recital tobight. I am in a lovely space listening to talented musicians from tiny to near college, and I’ve been smiling for an hour. I’ve needed this.

    1. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

      Watched some of the new *Death in Paradise* season in the tub. Such a nice antidote to winter.

      3. allathian*

        I’m hoping we get it soon on our public broadcaster’s streaming service. It’s one of my favorite cozy mystery shows.

    2. Past Lurker*

      I love chamber music and haven’t found a concert I can attend in a long time!
      My small joy was finding out that a favorite grocery store’s bakery makes an amazing lemon meringue pie.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This was a student performance at a senior residence, open to the public but only “advertised” on the school’s social media. So maybe try asking the music departments at your town’s school and any nearby college(s) for a link where they post announcements.

        After last night I’ll be looking for more!

    3. Ontariariario*

      An older family member used to hoard but got years of therapy and has finally been able to declutter a lot this year. We also found him a nice place to live and he will soon be moving to a really nice apartment. It isn’t fancy, but it’s a big step up from low income. I’m really happy for him, and that I was able to help find him this place.

      1. fallingleavesofnovember*

        As someone who has had a hoarder family member, that is a BIG joy!

        Also, I love your username!

        1. allathian*

          Agreed, it really is a big joy! My father has some hoarding tendencies that have been exacerbated by his mental health issues. My parents live in separate apartments in the same building, indeed the same stairwell, largely because my mom can’t deal with the clutter and because my dad has a disordered circadian rhythm (sometimes he sleeps for 2 hours a night 5 days straight and then he’ll sleep 16 hours at a stretch, you never know when he’s going to be asleep or awake) and it’s simply easier for them if they live apart but remain married. But when my mom told me that he’s taken the first baby steps towards decluttering his apartment, I literally jumped for joy! And it takes a lot to make this unfit, obese, middle-aged woman jump for any reason, let alone joy…

      3. allx*

        I am cheered that your story has a happy ending. Most of the stories around hoarding behaviour end with not being able to make any progress. I have someone in my family who hoards and it has been difficult trying to help. She wants to do better but just cannot. If you are able to share, what kind of therapy did your family member do?

        1. Ontariariario*

          I don’t know exactly what therapy, but it wasn’t specific to the hoarding. This was years of treating anxiety and ADHD and I’m not sure what else. He has been much more careful about bringing stuff into the home for the past few years so it has been a long process. Admitting that he had a problem also helped. A friend of mine has a neighbour who lies about getting rid of stuff and gets upset that her children won’t visit, and I don’t think she’ll ever get better because everyone else is to blame.

    4. Dragonfly7*

      I had an unexpected major car repair following the cold snap in mid-January that had to go on a credit card. I sold part of a collection to help pay down that debt. Yesterday, I received a deposit refund check from my last apartment that was much higher than expected, and the amount paid off that remaining car repair debt and then some.

    5. Middle Aged Lady*

      My BFF has had a string of health issues in the last couple of years, and now she is much better and we are planning a train trip to the Grand Canyon!

      1. LynnP*

        I recently completed a knitted pullover sweater and it took a long time to complete. I’ve lost weight in the meantime and now it’s so big it just looks sloppy. Has anyone successfully taken in a knitted garment? I do sew also. If I can’t resize this sweater I’m going to take it apart and reuse the yarn.

        2. rudebeckia*

          If you follow tinasayknits on Instagram she’s got some good tips! And finishing a sweater is a big joy, congrats!

    6. BellaStella*

      It took me an hour to move about 7miles from one apartment to another one this week, the movers were amazing, and I am half way unpacked here too. And my cat likes our new balcony. And I am sleeping really well.

    7. shteripecas*

      went to a chamber music concert tonight too, it was good
      My small joy is that I made a sarcastic comment on a weekday thread here and a couple of people said they found it funny.

    8. WellRed*

      The Valentines Bandit returned (in spirit) and decorated the downtown with hearts. This is a tradition dating to 1979 and the actual bandit died last year so his family revealed his identity and just launched a foundation. jMany different groups and people appear to have answered the call. My whole street woke up to hearts on doors.

      1. Bluebell*

        Awww- we were in your city last summer and they had a Remembrance Day and saw lots of hearts in the harbor area.

      2. Forrest Rhodes*

        My local news (different part of the country) covered this sweet tradition.
        RIP, Valentine’s Bandit. Your work will continue!

      4. Dicey Tillerman*

        I went to the kickoff fundraiser for the foundation this week, and it was really lovely. <3 #beakevin

    9. Jay (no, the other one)*

      My husband is allergic to pretty much all flowers and we never have them in the house. We usually ignore Valentine’s Day (which is fine with me). On Valentine’s Day I came downstairs to find a dozen red roses on the table. And they don’t seem to bothering his allergies. Every time I look at them I smile because they were such a surprise, and I feel loved.

    10. Nervous Nellie*

      I’m in a place that is usually dark and raining, but this morning’s sunrise was visible for a change and was mindblowing! What a beautiful planet we have.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        It’s lightly snowing here right now but the sun is peeping out. It did this on Thursday morning too, as I was walking to work. Sometimes I forget that winter can be kinda pretty.

    11. Small town*

      it is my birthday! I get to go to a stage adaptation of a beloved Jane Austen play and then dinner. Life is good.

    12. fposte*

      A beloved friend’s granddaughter, who hasn’t been responding to treatment for leukemia, is well enough for a bone marrow transplant! Fingers crossed very tightly.

    13. GoryDetails*

      Had my first food-truck experience! A popular local lobster truck had listed its newest locations, and I met some friends there – on a very, very cold day, as it turned out. But the venue was a plant nursery that had a seating area inside, and they let us bring our lobster rolls indoors to eat in comfort. [And I picked up some intriguing new dahlia tubers to plant after last frost.]

      1. Bethlam*

        Ohhhh, can I ask what kind of dahlia tubers? I plant hundreds of dahlias every spring and am always interested in what others have.

        1. GoryDetails*

          It’s a pair of contrasting-color bulbs, one each per package: “Jolly Bumblebee” from Simple Pleasures. One’s bright yellow, the other a dark purple. I do hope they bloom for me!

          1. Bethlam*

            They sound lovely. I got a gorgeous purple from some random lady who was dividing hers, and they would have looked great paired with the 2 yellows I had. Except for some reason both yellows started dwindling after years of multiplying beautifully and then died out completely. I’ll have to either buy some yellow tubers or find someone who would be interested in an exchange.

        1. GoryDetails*

          It’s Cousins Maine Lobster – their web site should have a list of each week’s upcoming food-truck locations. (I’m in New England, and the eastern-Massachusetts locations are closest for me, but it seems they have trucks in quite a few states.)

          1. Dicey Tillerman*

            Thank you! I’m also in New England, and always keeping an eye out for new places to try. Their truck here seems to be closed for the season (which, fair) so I’ll add them to my list for this summer.

    14. Girasol*

      I pruned the currant a couple weeks ago. The buds looked so healthy that I took a bunch of trimmings inside and put them in a jar of water. It’s a joy to see all those green leaves coming out now in the fag end of winter.

    15. Irish Teacher.*

      Today, I went to a nearish city to see a play. Not only was the play pretty awesome, but I had egg and chips in a café beforehand and it was delicious and I bought a new book in the city also.

      1. allathian*

        Egg and chips remind me of Inspector Morse because that’s what Mrs. Lewis always cooked for her husband.

    17. Tinamedte*

      Today was a sunny day for the first time in a long while, and I just had to get out of the house to get some sun, so I more or less forced my 8yo to go for a walk with me. I was expecting whining and resistance – but we both had a great time, experimenting with breaking ice on puddles etc and ended up staying out of the house for 3 hours! He was in such a good mood afterwards and we were both energized instead of tired. Love that little guy.

    18. I don’t post often*

      It’s Saturday night. Family and I enjoyed a simple supper of bruschetta and whatever leftover fruit and vegetables were in the fridge. Bulk of 3rd grade science fair project complete today. Everyone is healthy. We have enough money for me to buy he cheese I wanted for dinner and all the science fair stuff. We will see members of our community tomorrow at a nonprofit thank you dinner. I guess I’m enjoying a normal healthy 40 year old life. :)

    20. Pamela Adams*

      A thorough house cleaning today turned up 10 Kong toys, as well as A woolen dryer ball. Certain dogs were annoyed that we had discovered their stash.

    22. North Wind*

      I bought a Meyer Lemon Tree (for indoors) that I received last month. This is my first time taking care of anything more than common houseplants. It’s already had a lot of new foliage growth and TONS of buds. I found the very first bloomed flower this morning :) :) :).

      I saw someone else posting about the joy of watching things grow. I’m happy for you too!

      1. Clisby*

        Our citrus tree bore fruit for the first time in the 16 years we’ve lived in this house. All this time I thought it was some kind of lime, because that’s what the the guy we bought the house said. Instead, it’s an orange tree! And the fruit is actually good!

        This is not really amazing, since I know of people in my Charleston, SC neighborhood who have lemon, lime, and grapefruit trees – we were just so surprised that all of a sudden it produced.

    23. AGD*

      I usually react negatively to strong smells, even supposedly pleasant ones, especially when they involve plants/flowers. But there are a few exceptions. One is the tea tree oil soap that I bought. It smells fresh and not quite lemony, and I had a nice moment while washing my hands earlier.

    24. carcinization*

      Went to a hockey match for the first time in 5 years or so. “We” won, so it was even better.

  4. goddessoftransitory*

    So I have a question as a semi-literate computer user: is it possible to search for or list one’s own posts on AAM? I often try to find an older post I made, but have to paw through several older posts trying to remember where I made a comment.

    I’ve tried to go through my online avatar with Google but can’t find them there.

    2. Teapot Translator*

      If I understand correctly what you want: go to Google, type site:askamanager.com and your username. It should list all posts on this site where your username appears.

      1. Vio*

        For those whose username is two or more words you can put them inside quotes “like so” and it will only search for instances when the words are together in that exact phrase. One of the most useful search engine tips in my experience.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Add an asterisk next to the username – Alison has the software add that invisibly, for just this purpose. It helps weed out references to the person by others. (Not always, because some of us copy/paste usernames and the asterisk comes along for the ride.)

    3. OperaArt*

      You don’t need to go to Google. Ask a Manager has its own search box labeled “Search This Site”. It’s on the right hand side when I use my iPad browser. Type in your user name and hit the return key.

      1. Madame Arcati*

        Ime that often doesn’t work or only gives a few results, and also doesn’t put them in any semblance of order, certainly not chronological. It’s just not very good.

  5. HannahS*

    Sewing friends, where do you get good kids’ patterns? I’m looking for sizes 3T and up, mostly for classic, unisex basics. I’m willing to pay for quality, since my experience has been really bad with free patterns and random patterns from Etsy. The language of the pattern doesn’t matter.

    Specifically, I’m looking for:
    -pants with a flat front, elastic back waist, and pockets
    -plain t-shirt, long and short sleeves
    -sweatshirt, (zip or pullover),
    -sweatpants/joggers
    If you know of any good patterns or companies, please let me know!

      1. Carol the happy elf*

        Try Burda. (My Grandmother used it, the patterns came with very classical looks that could be embellished if desired. A lot of easy lines, and if you make children’s clothes, a few
        patterns make a whole wardrobe.) Our school uniforms were the same pattern as fancy dress, just different fabrics and buttons, bows, collars, etc.

        Burda has a magazine that used to have patterns in the actual magazine- at least that’s what I seem to remember. I’ve always had to have children’s sizes tailored to me, and buying off the rack is a nightmare.

        Good luck!

    2. Sparkle llama*

      I really liked Kwik Sew when I still made clothes and I think my mom used them for a lot of stuff when I was little.

      When I search online though it looks like they might not exist anymore:(

    3. RLC*

      Kwik-Sew Patterns, sadly out of business, but should be find-able on eBay or sewing pattern reseller sites. Sometimes see as deadstock at independent fabric stores, hit or miss. Vastly higher quality than most mass market modern patterns.

    4. Anono-me*

      My friend who sews, told me our library had patterns. If yours does also, maybe you could peruse a few there and find ones that suit you.

    5. shteripecas*

      I like Burda. Try Fabricland, or another fabric store in your area. Just a plug in case you want this, but Jalie patterns – mostly online, but some independent fabric stores carry her patterns – are very high quality, and should come in enough sizes that if you buy the onesie pattern for your kid, you can make one for you. She doesn’t do a full range of patterns, but I’ve got the coat similar to a northface goretex coat pattern, a skating dress, onesie and bikini pattern. Highly recommend

    6. HBJ*

      I use mostly Simplicity as well as some McCall and Butterick. FYI, there’s a $1.99 sale going on at Joann this weekend if you’re near one. All Simplicity patterns are $1.99 through Monday.

      If you’re going to shop from Etsy, look for a presence outside of Etsy at minimum. A website or social media. There are so many pattern companies that don’t exist outside of Etsy that are just using some sort of algorithm/AI to create patterns and you have no idea if they’re total junk or not. And don’t trust the reviews. Etsy has a short window for reviews. So people will give five stars never having sewn it just because the PDF was emailed promptly to them.

    7. Pattern Books*

      When I first started sewing kids clothes, I picked up a few books and I’ve added to the collection by buying used in my area. They were hit and miss in some ways, but they were invaluable for basics like you are describing. It helped, for me, to just have a place to go when I needed a new thing, rather than trying to chase down individual patterns.

      Unfortunately the ones I have are not in English, otherwise I’d add the specific titles. But see if you can find some used or at your library, just to start out with!

    8. Neurodivergent in Germany*

      Ottobre Kids is a popular magazine here that features modern classics with simple lines and a relaxed style. I’ve der seen sweatshirts and sweatpants there. Don’t know if it’s available in the US

    9. Haven’t picked a name*

      Made by Rae. There aren’t a ton, but can be made in so many ways and have sizes new born through I think size 12 for kids. (There are also some adult patterns.)

    10. Pumpernickel Princess*

      I haven’t used them personally, but a friend has shared good things about the online pattern company Patterns for Pirates. They have lots of kids’ stretch/knit patterns and I spotted a pair of joggers that looks like what you’re looking for.

      Not as much in line with your wishlist, but in case anyone else is looking for kids’ sewing patterns: I LOVE Twig + Tale, a NZ-based pattern designer. They make lovely thoughtful children’s and adults’ patterns, with crystal-clear instructions.

      1. Claus, Mrs Claus*

        I was coming here to suggest Twig and Tale too! Also Waves and Wild have a similar vibe.

        Both of these are indie pattern companies. They have great instructions and often sew-alongs to help « hold your hand » through any tricky bits.

      2. wkfauna*

        Yes, I love Patterns for Pirates and have made many things for my daughter from there. Also in the same vein is Made for Mermaids. Both companies specialize in patterns for knits.

    13. What the what*

      I’m a quilter so I can’t help you out. But I’m so impressed that you are sewing clothes!

      1. Pattern Books*

        I am a quilter who has started sewing clothes–it can be done! But yeah, total learning curve. But totally worth it. :) Quilts and clothes are great, and difficult, for different reasons. If you’re worried about taking the plunge, give it a go! Kids clothes are a great starting point because they’re usually a little simpler, don’t have to be perfect in the same way and don’t waste as much fabric when you mess it up.

    14. one more librarian*

      There’s a great sewing blog, “So, Zo, What do you know?” that includes a monthly free pattern link and review, and many of them are for kids’ clothes. What I like is that Zoe writes about the process of adjusting the pattern if needed, the sewing, any tips or potential errors, and her kids offer their opinions of the results. Link in reply to this.

    15. Maria R.*

      I really like everything I’ve made from Titchy Threads! I made a couple different pants patterns and some tops, too. Jalie is also really solid, and many of theirs are kids and adult in the same pattern.

      I’ve made a few infant things from Brindille and Twig, and they’ve turned out ok. They weren’t the best patterns ever. If my memory is correct, they were a bit lacking in notches. (Kind of common in indie patterns, to be honest.)

  6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    Wall color recommendations for a very small space with no natural light? I have a tiny half bath, literally under 4×5 feet, that we’re getting ready to tear out fixtures, redo flooring and de-texture walls. It’s currently painted white, and that’s okay, but I’m trying to figure out if I can get a color in there without making it feel even smaller. (Maybe mostly white with an accent wall? Or would that look silly in a small space?) Plus I’m struggling in part because I have no visual imagination and the current vanity is ridiculously large, it takes up 2/3 of the room and comes within a quarter inch of blocking the door from opening and closing, so I am not doing well with trying to picture it completely changed.

    Also open to other suggestions on how to best use the space in a tiny bathroom. There is a hall closet right outside, so a lot of the things that might normally be in a bathroom (spare toiletries, OTC meds, towels etc) are already out there.

    1. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

      Ok, so this is WAY over the top, WAY over the top, but I’ve seen some gold or copper leaf covered walls that were just stunning. And you’d want to do it to a small space anyway, since it’s so dramatic. And you have to seal it anyways. So it’d be good for a bathroom.

      What does the rest of the house look like? What general style are you aiming for.

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        Came here to say this. I’ve heard that small bathrooms can be decorated like jewel boxes. BIG wallpaper. Strong colors. In one house I lived in, there was a very small powder room that had a foil like wallpaper with a very large design and it looked amazing!

        2. Nihil Scio*

          Love, love, love this! Our interior small bathroom is cranberry with white trim, pecan floors, and a beautifully framed mirror
          In the last house, the smallest bathroom was deep, sapphire blue. This really works!

        3. ReallyBadPerson*

          Back in 2001, my husband chose a very bold wallpaper for a very small bathroom (toilet and sink). We installed it. That house has changed house three times since. When I look at the online ads, I see that paper is still there.

      3. Llellayena*

        I have a dark red-brown in my half bath and I’m planning to put a map wall mural up. Bold is good in a small space. And dark wall can retreat into the background to make the space feel bigger (think looking into a dark cave).

    2. HannahS*

      Windowless bathrooms I’ve seen and found nice:
      -three walls were bright white, one was a saturated cerulean blue, with tiny white tiles and cedar-coloured shelving. It felt kind of Mediterranean.
      -Caroline Winkler (a youtube personality) did a bathroom makeover that I unexpectedly liked (yellow and red and wallpaper are super not my thing.) It’s called “the internet’s most chaotic bathroom makeover” or something similar.
      -could board-and-batten or a picture rail divide the wall vertically, and have it partly coloured? Sage-y greens seem to be big right now, and I love the colour against creamy white
      -there are storage units that sit above the toilet

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        The bright-white-with-a-saturated-color is what I did in the kitchen – I painted it what I politely call bright-ass turquoise, but then most of the walls are behind white cabinetry, so it’s more overall a bright feeling, with the turquoise just popping out here and there, rather than overall eye-searing. I was pondering such a thing with maybe a bright purple for the bathroom – white for three walls, and purple for the fourth, plus also maybe purple for the baseboards and trim around the door.

        My guest room is a sage-y green (maybe a little brighter) with white trim :)

    3. Anon-E-Mouse*

      I think you can use colour and/or texture in an interesting way to make the room feel special. We had a very small powder room in our old house that had deep red walls and a diagonal black and white checkered floor. We had a narrow sink and a simple but fairly large vertical mirror above the vanity.

      You might find some good ideas on Pinterest if you look for tiny house bathrooms, although those will be full bathrooms, and for “small powder rooms”.

      Some other ideas to consider:
      – Vivid and sophisticated but not dark colours (eg deep golden yellow, robins egg blue).
      – Unusual wallpaper (all walls) – something floral or with animals (or both).
      – A neutral and fairly bright colour on the walls combined with interesting tiles.
      – Look into downsizing the vanity to make the room more functional. You can often find places to donate sinks and cabinets.
      – Think about flattering lighting – a combination of ceiling (or uplights) and sconces.
      – Investigate whether a pocket door is feasible to provide more space.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Definitely downsizing the vanity, probably to a pedestal (or maybe even wall-mounted) sink. A pocket door won’t work, I don’t think, though I wish it would — one side of the door is on a wall that’s has an open room behind it, and the other side has the wall depth but also electrical running through it – but I was looking last night at barn style doors. I don’t know if they come with narrow enough rails to fit a “normal” barn style sliding door into the space, but I saw some bifold style ones, that fold to one side rather than sliding the whole door over, and those might work. (Is a barn door on a bathroom weird? Can you put a latch or lock on them? Hm.)

        1. No Tribble At All*

          You can’t put a latch on them, and they don’t seal as well as regular doors, so they’re a bit…. Personal… for a powder room

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            That’s what I figured would probably be the outcome, thanks! Regular door it is.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I used to live with a daffodil yellow kitchen, and later with a lighter yellow bathroom. It would have been too much for a bedroom but in a place you go to wake up, it was cheery.

        (Although I do suggest two levels of lighting so you can keep it dim if you are getting up briefly at night.)

        1. SarahKay*

          I used to live with a kitchen in a soft primrose yellow and it was lovely – it always felt sunny in there regardless of the weather.

    4. allx*

      Check out Tasha at Kaleidoscope Living (designertrapped.com). She has lots of before and after photos of people who redesigned their bathroom (and other) spaces using her Designer in a Binder process. Something may inspire you.

    5. Manders*

      I have a bathroom that is similar in size, maybe a little larger. I struggled for a long time, but now I love it. I painted it a light grey (with a slight purple undertone), and about 4 feet off the ground I painted a ~10 inch tall stripe in a medium/dark gray all the way around the room. It was easy and gives the room visual interest without being overwhelming, and it could probably work with any color.

    6. Gatomon*

      I have a small half bath with no natural light about the same size, it has a pedestal sink instead of a vanity though. Dark, jewel-toned colors actually help a space feel larger! I went with a tone of blue-green, I think it was called “juniper ash.”

      Eventually I’ll do a more serious renovation and go bolder with the color, but this was just a quick fix to cover up the atrocious mac-and-cheese yellow the previous owners used. Because my bathroom is naturally dark and off a dark hallway, anyone trying to use it will have to turn on the light, which makes the color pop.

      As for storage, I don’t think you need it in a half bath. I have a small wastebasket with a lid and a small basket to hold a spare roll or two of TP on top of the toilet tank. There was a crappy hanging cabinet that I took down because I never remembered there was a spare roll in there anyway. (ADHD… can’t see it = doesn’t exist.)

      1. Morning Reading*

        For space use: cabinet over the toilet, hooks where they might be convenient, grab bars everywhere you might reach out a hand for balance (can also hang things from them in a pinch.)
        For color: I have red walls, with white tiles and fixtures, some blue tile highlights in places over the tub. I’ve hung various small decorations, like tree ornaments in white or metallics (like Xmas decorations but generic like red birds, snowflakes, winter scenes) and also use a string of lights plugged in (makes finding the bathroom easier at night) I have a large mirror opposite the bathroom sink so if I open the medicine cabinet, I can check out the back of my head in the double reflection. Also increases the feeling of space. When I first moved in, the red walls seemed weird but they grew on me, so I kept them and leaned into the style when I renovated.

        1. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

          Just don’t do a mirrored wall! I house sat for a place with mirror tile on the bathroom wall. So awkward to sit and watch yourself. It did make the place look larger, but still one of the most NO bathrooms I’ve ever used.

    7. Ranon*

      I did mine white on the bottom (we have beadboard), Sherwin Williams gala pink on the top. I love it, it’s a lot but it’s super flattering and really pretty.

      Small bathrooms are the best place to go wild- fancy wallpaper, bright colors, whatever- it’s not like you spend that much time in there, might as well have fun!

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Y’all have some lovely sounding ideas!! Thank you :)

      The door is on one of the short walls, so it’s a “long” rectangle, and the plumbing is on one of the long walls – for replacement fixtures, I was thinking a pedestal sink with a flat mirror above it (the current one isn’t a cabinet, but is bulky enough that it looks like it should be) and a nice lighting fixture above.

      1. e271828*

        I just finished remodeling a tiny bathroom (technically a 3/4 bath, it does have a shower) with no natural light. The ceiling is black, the wallpaper is a black background with multicolored fish (Cole), kept the sandy-colored floor. Fixtures are gold-bronze Kohler, picking up tones in the paper. I didn’t pull out the vanity, kinda wish I had, but I didn’t want to redo the floor. Tall frameless mirror reflects light, it’s not dark, but it is dramatic.

        For the small space you describe, one of the long, narrow wall-mounted sinks with a frameless mirror might work well.

      2. Sutemi*

        In a small dark room, consider if you can add lighting that isn’t only from above, or if it is above can you use a fixture wide enough to hit the face from different angles. Maybe a sconce on the opposite wall or something so there is light from multiple directions if your electrical allows for it.

    9. Slartibartfast*

      I have a windowless half bath, and it’s a light teal blue, like a sky blue in saturation but just a little bit more toward seafoam green in hue, with all white fixtures and trim. Any pale color wall and white trim would work I think.Also daylight toned LED bulbs, that made a huge difference.

    11. Bluebell*

      Not a bathroom but we have a very small pantry done in a light lemon yellow and white, and it’s not claustrophobic. The cabinets below counter are white, the ones above counter are white with yellow trim, and the two walls are yellow. I love it.

    12. Phryne*

      I have a tiny bathroom with no window that I have managed to make not look too cramped. I have large white tiles on the wall, (small tiles make it look more crowded) but to make it not sterile I have patterned tiles on the floor. (kind of like Sevilla tiles) These patterned tiles are all unique from each other, but they are all in the same greyscale colours so it looks like a unity. I have two large drawers under the washbasin and a mirrored cupboard above and this is more than enough storage for bottles.
      I have added a pop of colour with a fake plant and cute little vase from IKEA on a ledge.

    13. I take tea*

      I’m really encouraged by people saying that you can go over the top. We have a small toilet, at the moment all white, and we are planning to paint it with a metallic greengold colour and paint all details gold. It will either look fabulous or overwhelming. But I have seen a small one with metallic tiles and a crystal chandelier, and it was fine, so I think it might work.

    14. What the what*

      I’ve read that deep saturated jewel tone colors with a lower LRV (light reflective value) are great for spaces like this. Reflective surfaces or light colored accessories are supposed to help. I have a Pinterest board on low-light rooms because my bedroom is hideously dark. Great for sleeping though!

    15. OhGee*

      I have one that small and I painted it purple. it does have a window though. A friend has a windowless half bath that small and it’s yellow: very cheery!

  7. Emily Elizabeth*

    I’m interested in hypothetically starting to garden on my balcony but have historically had a black thumb and have very little gardening experience. Any suggestions for where to start as a complete gardening beginner? Book recommendations, YouTube channels, Reddit communities, etc. The one time I tried to look at plants I realized I don’t even know how to figure out the amount of sunlight my balcony gets regularly because I am rarely home all day, and I got overwhelmed and stopped, but I really like the idea of growing vegetables outside! Thanks in advance!

    1. clumsy*

      To figure out sunlight: are you in the northfern hemisphere? Which way does your balcony face? Are there large buildings shading the sun from you? On a weekend, just casually look out every hour or so, and that gives you an idea. Otherwise go to your garden centre and say: I have a northwest facing badly, what can I grow? Herbs might be a good place to start

      1. Emily Elizabeth*

        I am in SC and my balcony is south facing, looking out at a wall of trees, no buildings. Herbs would be lovely, thanks for the rec!

        1. Giant Space Pickle*

          South facing means plenty of afternoon sun so that’s not an issue. You can buy self-watering planter boxes so you don’t have to constantly be watering – fill a reservoir, and moisture is sucked up from below. Some also have nets to protect from pests and frost.

    2. Carol the happy elf*

      Are you in the US? Every county has an extension office connected to their Agricultural University, and some research universities (like Clemson in South Carolina) have amazing information online. My bestie is a Master Gardener who actually teaches in the community (free classes, handouts are usually a buck or so, or printed from their websites online)
      When I was recently divorced and sick, in an apartment, she visited me and my little children, and made my balcony look like the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, veggies included. If your balcony isn’t straight north-facing, it can be done. Bestie had big, glorious vegetables that were pure beauty. (A big pot with dinosaur Kale, strawberries spilling over the edge, and a tower pole for beans and cucumbers. For shade and privacy, she had netting up to hooks on the ceiling, and vines with these long red beans and pretty little flowers.

      She said that anything that’s an ornamental can be mimicked with food plants. She makes porch railing window boxes with colored lettuces and spinach (Salad bar garden) and scallions spiking up out of it. One giant pot had sweet potatoes and real ginger, and the leaves on the sweet potato vines were like a mild spinach. (real potatoes can also go in pots and bags)

      Look up “Foodscaping” and patio gardening, and now is the season to plan it all. You can do this; thrift shops have big pots, plastic buckets can be painted and have holes drilled. My glass patio table was just over mini tomato plants, and carrots and herbs grew in buckets of sand and sparkly stuff.

      Some extensions are run better than others; hers is amazing, mine less so, do if you’re not impressed, call another county.

      Good luck.

      1. Emily Elizabeth*

        That all sounds lovely! Thanks so much for all the info! I am actually in SC so good to know Clemson’s work can be a resource.

    3. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

      Do you cook? Start with a few pots of herbs. Many of them are annual and die every year anyways, so can start fresh next year anyway. Plus, fresh herbs!

      Most vegetables are also annuals, but they almost always need full sun to produce. Making all those yummy veggies takes a lot of energy.

      I have a self watering planter that I really love. Top it up with a few gallons of water and then I can ignore the plants until the water gets low. I DIY’d it, but you can also buy them.

      Also, just plan on having failures the first year. You will, that’s just life and the way new things go. A youtuber with the most impressive kitchen garden I’ve seen in my life made a video about pulling up and replanting a pear tree, because it just never thrived and was starting to be diseased. And he had decades of experience! You will make mistakes, and you will learn from them and do better next year. I started my planter box in 2022, my first attempt at my own little garden. My tomato plant didn’t give me a single tomato. Not even a little one that failed. And it sprawled and looked ugly. So no tomato plant in 2023. Maybe a future year.

      1. Houndmom*

        Someone here recommended Garden Stalk — it was a couple of years ago? It is a vertical garden. It is pretty cool and there are lots of videos on it on You Tube.

        I bought mine when it went on sale. The piece I did not think though is how much soil I would need for it. I spent $75 on soil. But I am growing veggies inside in the northeast.

        1. MissB*

          Greenstalk maybe? They currently have a BOGO 60% off sale. I also like their new stationary spinner base.

          I use one for strawberries and one for whatever else I want (lettuce, kale, spinach, green onions, flowers, etc. It’s a mix.)

    4. Girasol*

      We did a balcony veggie garden from seed once and it was amazingly productive. We were quite poor then so it was all in second hand buckets and cardboard boxes lined with trash bags, and planted with seeds from sale bins. But we used rotted leaf mold to fill them – like a fluffy compost – and everything burgeoned. Watering can be a little tricky on a south facing balcony since small containers dry out fast. If you plan to start from seed, take a look at the Pinetree Seeds catalog. They sell good flower and veggie seed in small packets for small prices, so they’re ideal for those of us who want variety in a small space.

    5. WestsideStory*

      Self-watering planters are the way to go. Gardens.com has the best selection of designs and you will thank me later for getting the special soil that goes with them. You are in a south-facing exposure in a hot climate, a player with a reservoir of a gallon or more will keep your plants alive in the hottest months.
      As a beginner, start with plants rather than seeds. As others have suggested, regional gardening books or your states cooperative extension can steer you to the best cultivars for containers and help you troubleshoot pest and disease problems.
      One more thing- make room on the terrace for a chair or a bench. Enjoy the process, gardening is a lifetime adventure no matter where you live.

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      Do you have a garden club in your town? The one in mine has a lot of free, open to the public programs all about different aspects of gardening.
      You can also google “container gardening” since that is what you will be doing.
      Fine Gardening magazine has a lot of articles about container gardening that are very easy to follow. Your library may have copies.
      Good luck and I hope you have fun!

    7. RC*

      If there’s any sort of community garden around where you are, I’ve learned loads from going there re: what to plant around here and how to care for them (it’s an actual community garden, not plot-based, so it’s low-risk of *me* actually killing anything, because I’m not in charge).

      I’ve also learned that store-bought basil plants are the worst, I’ve killed like 5 in a row. I give up now. But I have some other nice plants, including a couple volunteers that have lasted.

      Oh final note: if you’re willing/interested to do vermicomposting (worm bins) I’ve gotten so many volunteer pepper plants out of the stuff I’ve put in there. Also tomatoes and melons/squash (I haven’t had luck pollinating the latter so hard to tell what they’d end up being). Plus then you get some nice compost for your plants— mine clearly like it since they keep sprouting! The guy at redwormcomposting dot com has a lot of great info. Anyway, I find it easier to keep my worms alive than my plants honestly!

  8. Georgia Sands*

    Any storage tips for small houses? Currently decluttering to move into a much smaller place and it’s a bit terrifying ngl!

    1. Dragonfly7*

      I just moved into a 500 sq foot apartment and bought a platform bedframe that is designed to have room to store things underneath. My queen frame would fit 8 66 qt plastic storage bins easily with room to spare. All of my spare linens, off season clothes, extra cat food and litter, and paper goods live under there now!

    2. Jay*

      Just about any large piece of furniture can be purchased in a variation that has additional hidden storage space. Beds, tables, couches, chairs, footrests, just about anything.
      Use high places to store things you don’t plan to use often.
      The very tops of cabinets, and book cases places that are completely out or reach without a ladder. That kind of thing.
      A place I lived in for years had these sort of “loft” thingies. Basically thick wooden beams supporting platforms. They would be either set against the wall or as part of a door frame. They made a kind of open air attic. They weren’t the greatest looking things ever, but they were also obviously not professionally built (or even built by a skilled amature). I imagine that someone with more skill and proper tools and materials could do a much better and more ascetically pleasing job.

    3. Kaleidoscope*

      be brutal. what do you need, want and like? what are you holding on for in case of x,y,z? do any friends or family like anything and would be able to give an item a new home?

      I had to move internationally, the less I moved, the cheaper it was. some items were just stuff at the end of the day.

    4. Not A Manager*

      Bins and plastic drawers in various sizes and configurations. I have high closet shelves with a whole series of stacking drawers on them. It creates storage literally to the ceiling. I got a small folding stool and keep it in a slot in the closet so that I can access the upper shelves easily.

      I have bins/drawers under every sink, in every small closet, in my tiny pantry, etc. My kitchen drawers have small bins in them. My dresser drawers do too. I also have a storage bed on order that has several large drawers in it. That’s more practical for me than having a high bed with storage under it, although I’ve done that in the past.

      I don’t like a bunch of stuff out on my counters or taking up wall space, so I’ve hacked a lot of interior space in my cabinets between the cabinet door and the edge of the shelf. (My apartment is old so in some cabinets there’s quite a bit of room there.) I got some inexpensive glue-on spice racks for the inside of one cabinet door, for example. Also, I have two bathrooms for only one person. I keep my large household stuff in the second bathtub and just keep the shower curtain drawn.

      But the reality is that you can’t fit more stuff into your space than you have cubic room for. You do have to purge, and keep on top of your organization, or it becomes a nightmare.

    5. Falling Diphthong*

      My life goal is to duplicate my relatives who moved into a new house when they retired, and just moved in the minimum amount of stuff from their old house. Lived with it for a brief period and then decided what else they wanted to include. Then got rid of the rest. If you can overlap the two spaces, I really recommend this: their home is so pleasant and uncluttered. (They also remodeled to add significant upstairs closet space in what had been a pass-through office to the bedroom, so it wasn’t just downsizing.)

      For storage, if you own and so can construct, I’ve admired solutions that figured out all the unused bits of space within walls, like under the eaves or next to the chimney, and built in some shelves/cabinets/drawers in those spaces. Our cats enjoy the drawers under the bed, so I find they are not practical for clothes/sheets without an added storage bag–depends on your cat situation.

    6. IT Manager*

      I just downsized and struggled with this (no basement!! Small closets! No pantry!)

      The best thing I’ve done so far – in a hallway, I put 4 IKEA Billy bookshelves together and use them for all sorts of things from teasets to travel knick knacks to serving platters.

      They are shallow, so they don’t take up much space in the hall. I got doors with solid lowers half to hide functional things, glass on top for pretty things. I put stick-on wallpaper as a pattern on the back to make it a bit more unique and bought my own handles for the doors. It really helps keep the clutter out of the rest of the space.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      What I have wanted to do is build a bookshelf wrapping the room at a level above the door. Think of vintage plate rails, but sized for my beloved paperbacks… and preferably with mitered decorations above and below to act as crown molding.

      1. Slartibartfast*

        picture frame molding on the leading edge of the shelves will make a lovely look and prevent small things from falling off the shelves

    8. Girasol*

      If you have a garage, lining the sides with narrow wire shelving with plastic bins on can give you a lot of backup storage.

  9. Aussie Down Under*

    The bathroom decoration thread made me think of something I’ve been wondering. In my country, it’s very common for the toilet to be in a separate room to the bathroom, and many houses built in the 90s/early 2000s had 3-way bathrooms, where the basin area is in an alcove and the bathroom and toilet are in separate rooms coming off of that.
    In the US this seems to be seen as undesirable and the bathrooms are often all in one. Why don’t people like the separate rooms? They are much more convenient because the person using the toilet isn’t preventing others from washing hands or brushing teeth. I suppose there’s the dirty knob issue, but generally the bathroom doors are left open so it’s only the inside toilet door knob that gets touched.

    1. Commander Shepard's Favorite Store*

      Maybe it just depends on the region, builder, and the size of the house? I don’t think it’s that unusual here in the US. In the house I grew up in and the first house I bought, both in the midwest, the bathrooms were too small to section them off like that. My current house in the western US, and my parents’ current house in the south, both have the toilets in separate rooms and I never thought it was unusual.

      1. JR 17*

        I think it’s not unusual in the US for the toilet to be in an enclosed space within the bathroom. I grew up in an SF Victorian where the bathroom and sink/shower were in completely separate rooms, both exiting to the hallway, and I haven’t seen that in the US except in Victorians. I think the dirty knob factor is a big piece of it! But also, many US houses have 2+ bathrooms, so less if an issue if one is in use, there’s still someplace else to go.

    2. Esprit de l'escalier*

      We used to visit my husband’s cousin in Belgium every few years and her very modern apartment had a tiny toilet-only room with the sink outside it. Maybe it’s just that I’m used to having the sink next to the toilet, but her setup always made me feel icky as I couldn’t immediately wash my hands, and sometimes I wished I could moisten some TP for cleanup purposes (not to get too descriptive) as I could do at home. I recognize that it has some advantages, but those felt like significant disadvantages.

    3. Double A*

      I wonder if it’s partly because American houses are big so they often have multiple bathrooms so it’s not a huge issue if one person is occupying one. And then housing that is are smaller/cheaper are, well, cheaper and an all-in-one rooms requires less material.

    4. Stardust*

      My husband prefers hotel bathrooms that have the sink basin available outside with the toilet in its own small room. He likes to be able to access the sink.

      Many homes in the US have several bathrooms as well as additional sinks available to use in the house… a home may have a one or two sinks in the kitchen, and maybe another one in a utility/laundry room.

      There are times when someone would want to have immediate access to a sink within the privacy of the bathroom and right by the toilet (i.e. menstrual and other reasons).

    5. RagingADHD*

      I’ve seen that a lot in newer houses in the US, and I don’t like it because I don’t particularly enjoy tiny public bathroom stalls and see no compelling advantage to recreating them in one’s own house.

      1. Gatomon*

        Yes. It’s claustrophobic, and feels about as private as using a public restroom to me. They don’t really feel like separate rooms because they’re so tiny, and the ones I’ve used in homes aren’t fully enclosed because the ceilings were extra high, leaving a couple feet up top so a light fixture didn’t have to be dedicated to the box.

        I think it’s a primal thing, like you’re doing something that puts you at higher risk of predation and you’re trapped in this tiny space with no escape if a predator comes along. When presented with a narrow, tiny, dark toilet stall and a wide, well lit* accessible stall, many of us are going to take the accessible stall because it feels safer in our lizard brains, even though it’s not the kind choice because someone who truly needs it could be right behind us.

        *Well lit because it’s large enough to actually end up with a light fixture over it, unlike those too-small stalls that somehow end up between fixtures and permanently dark like the far side of the moon.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I don’t think it has anything to do with prey instinct, it’s just crowded and chintzy feeling. Space is a luxury.

          I also do not think it’s unkind to use an accessible stall in an otherwise empty public restroom. It’s not a parking space. But I’m not even sure how we got there from not liking home bathrooms to be chopped up into two or three rooms, which more often than not have very poorly planned doors.

      2. GoosieLou*

        I think the main advantage, aside from people being able to use a sink when someone else is using the toilet, is that you don’t have to either just hope that everyone is good about closing the toilet lid when they flush or keep your toothbrush shut in a cabinet where it can’t dry if you want to avoid sharticles on your toothbrush.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I’ve seen a few houses that had the different bathroom fixtures in different rooms like Aussie Down Under described. In my experience they’re usually older houses built between say, 1900 to about 1940 or so. I’m not aware that the people who lived in houses with these features actively disliked them, but the idea did seem to, sort of, fade out of popularity and I’m not sure why.

    7. Morning Reading*

      I suspect we aren’t sharing bathrooms at the same time as much anymore. This could be convenient in a family house with multiple children and only one bathroom. But I’ve lived alone or with only one other person most of my adulthood, and when I had a bathroom like that, with a door to enclose the toilet room, I never used it. I speculate that during the peak baby boom years, when families were larger and bathrooms fewer, there was more need for this separation. 3 bedrooms 1 bath was very typical. Now I see places advertised with more bathrooms than bedrooms.

      1. Morning Reading*

        That is, I never used the extra door, eventually had it removed. Definitely used the toilet since it was the only one I had!

    8. Part time lab tech*

      All in one bathrooms have a smaller footprint than the enclosed powder room in bathroom and are often better access for some disabilities.
      Personally, I hate the idea of toilet aerosols on my toothbrush and love my privacy. (My current ensuite has no door and I hate it more and more as time goes on but we’re stingy.) I also like a powder room separate from the family bathroom.

    9. abca*

      Interesting thread! Where I live single toilet rooms in addition to bathrooms are standard, but they have small basins inside, just for washing hands. I once lived in a very old house that did not have the basin and I missed it, but I did put a hand sanitizer dispenser there.
      One large downside of only having all-in-one bathrooms for me is that it requires you to have an organized clean bathroom at all times. It’s easy to keep a separate toilet clean enough for guests, but bathrooms have way more stuff, more potential for clutter. And they have many private things. I keep my meds in the bathroom, but I wouldn’t want people who just need to use the toilet to stumble upon them. It would be annoying to keep them somewhere else. Also other stuff like toothbrushes. And then there’s the poop aerosols. I also use menstruation underwear, and rinse it out and hang it to dry in the bathroom. I don’t want guests to stumble over that. I know there are solutions to all of this, but I really like having the bathroom as private space. When we have guests sleep over they will of course use the large bathroom and I’ll adapt, but I’m always happy to have my house back too.
      I also don’t think it is universal to prefer larger spaces, as some have said. In my own house I don’t have a preference, but in other people’s houses, I feel a bit more exposed in all-in-one bathrooms, especially when they have windows. I expect it’s probably just what you’re used to. I would not like separate toilet rooms without full doors at all! That’s definitely the worst of all options.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Now I’m curious about the layout of a toilet that can be accessed by guests without seeing the rest of the bathroom! Does it have 2 doors?

        I thought we were talking about an all in one bathroom or full-bath that had been divided up into rooms within rooms within rooms. You have to go through the main bath area to reach the toilet. That’s the kind of thing I don’t care for.

        Are you talking about a powder room or half-bath? The kind that’s a whole separate room in a different part of the house? That’s different to me, it’s not so squished.

        1. londonedit*

          The way it worked traditionally in older houses in the UK is that you have a very small and narrow room that literally has a toilet and nothing else – sometimes a very small hand basin. Then immediately next door to that you have a slightly larger room with a bath and hand basin. As the OP says, that configuration became very unfashionable a few years ago, and people almost universally knock the two through into one larger bathroom with toilet, bath/shower, basin etc.

          In the UK you also need to bear in mind that the majority of old houses in towns and cities are terraced Victorian/Edwardian houses, built for the working classes, and those wouldn’t have had indoor bathrooms at all – you’d have an outdoor loo in the back yard and then the family’s baths would be taken in front of the fire in the main living room, using water heated in kettles on the stove. Many Victorian houses now have a downstairs bathroom because when indoor bathrooms became the norm it was often too costly to put a bathroom upstairs, so the solution was to build a small extension on the back of the house for the bathroom (and sometimes also for a kitchen, as kitchen facilities were also a lot smaller and more basic than people expect now).

          1. RagingADHD*

            Oh, ye olde water closet.

            Toilet + basin is what we call a powder room or half bath in the US. It’s very common to see them in all ages of house.

            An all in one bathroom with the toilet walled off inside started getting popular here in maybe the 1990s.

    10. IT Manager*

      Yeah this is in all the home shows, isn’t it? They immediately rip out that configuration and put one big room.

      Personally, I don’t like to be in the bathroom with my husband so having more separation with the sink accessible for shaving, makeup, washing hands separately from shower or toilet is great for me. In my last home, I even put sink/vanity separately in our bedroom and my teenager’s bedroom so we were all sharing the (full) bathroom as little as possible.

      So I don’t understand this trend either!

    11. WellRed*

      Maybe it’s regional? I’ve always lived in old houses in New England and they tend to have one bathroom with a footprint big enough for sink, full tub and toilet. These multiple room bathrooms? If I’ve seen any, it was probably newer build or new renovation.

    12. fhqwhgads*

      It’s not seen an undesirable. It’s seen as fancy. In my experience it’s more common to have this in larger houses. Or in some cases, older houses or in certain regions. In more recent construction though, mostly I’d wager space is a premium. You can have all three things in one smaller bathroom. It takes more space to do it as two or three separate spaces. So the choice may be between the three separate areas, and a smaller adjacent room, or let the living area be bigger and let the bathroom be all-in-one but slightly smaller.

    13. Alex*

      Well, one very specific reason I personally don’t like that is because I use a menstrual cup, and you need immediate and back-and-forth access to the sink in order to clean and re-insert. And sometimes people like privacy with the sink as well! I also prefer just smaller, all-in-one bathrooms overall because I think large bathrooms are a waste of space, since I’d rather spend time in other parts of the house lol.

    14. Loreli*

      Visiting friends in the UK whose house has a bathroom with sink and tub/shower. Toilet in a separate room (might have had a tiny sink in toilet room).
      It was “that time of the month” and not having a toilet in the bathtub room was awful. I wasn’t able to take care of what needed to be done either before or after my shower. I never understood the reasoning.
      After I had little kids I thought the same, seeing they often had to use the toilet during bath time (even after having them go beforehand). If there was no toilet, it would have been difficult to avoid kid peeing or pooping in the tub unless I quickly carried them dripping and naked to the toilet room.

    15. allathian*

      I’m in Finland, and here the typical configuration for small apartments with only one bathroom is a full bath. Our house is built on a slope and we have a sauna with two showers and a bathtub downstairs and a separate half bath with a small basin. These are pretty ubiquitous because our building standards specify a bidet shower for each toilet seat, except for some multi-stall public washrooms. Saunas are basically mandatory in single-family homes and summer cottages, where they’re generally in a separate building fairly near the beach if the cottage is located on a lakeside lot. In a country of 5.6 million people we have about 3 million saunas.

      Our bedrooms are downstairs because our main entrance is upstairs and the downstairs is half underground and several degrees cooler than the upstairs, especially in summer. Upstairs we have a toilet with an enclosed shower stall. Our building code specifies at least one toilet with a basin for each storey of living space for permanently inhabited homes. The rules for summer cottages are much less strict, even with running water from a local well many cottages only have outhouses or chemical toilets because dealing with the sewage is a big deal out in the boondocks where there are no municipal utilities except maybe electricity.

  10. clumsy*

    What’s the best material for a kitchen counter? We heavily use the kitchen, so spilling tea & coffee on it several times a day, as well as turmeric and other stainy things.

    1. Sloanicota*

      I can only say that mine are granite, and I am not a fan. The instructions were not to use anything abrasive, no bleach, and no heat on the surface – and it discolors with water. It also stains easily. To be fair, it’s a light color, but whoof. I was really excited about it too.

      2. Chaordic One*

        Aren’t most stone countertops (granite, quartz, marble and concrete and I don’t know what else) protected by some kind of sealant like acrylic or something? Shouldn’t the sealant prevent staining? I would imagine that you’d have to reaply the sealant every so often, maybe every few years?

        1. Seashell*

          I think that’s probably true in theory, but I’m not sure how well it works in practice. When my husband & I moved into our house about 20 years ago, it was the first time we had granite countertops (or anything other than cheap laminate), so we had no experience on how to deal with them. The house had been recently redone by the occupants, which included a contractor who wanted to flip it, so I don’t think the kitchen was more than a year or two old. We left a deep fryer on the counter that had some oil on the outside, and it left a stain on the counter that never came off.

          We had a counter guy give us an estimate on fixing it and resealing everything, but he didn’t seem sure that the stain would actually come out, so we never bothered. At this point, I would rather just have the kitchen redone and get whatever counters really can’t be stained.

    2. RLC*

      My parents had a stainless steel kitchen worktop and backsplash in the home they built. Slight raised lip on outer edge contained most spills, and almost nothing could stain it. (If needed the surface could be buffed with BonAmi or similar non toxic cleanser). Didn’t look particularly “industrial” as cupboards were natural color wood.

    4. Janesfriend*

      I have stainless steel bench tops and I love them. I can put hot pots directly on them, they easy to keep clean and they don’t stain.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I had a stainless steel island in my last apartment and I loved it. I put bags of ice on it before I rolled out pie crust– it was a dream.

    5. JR 17*

      We have silestone, and a year out from our remodel, we’ve been very happy with it. We have a matte finish and I especially like that.

      1. Imprudence*

        we have cheap IKEA plastic laminate chipboard. it’s bleachabke for tea and turmeric, and cheap enough to replace every few years when it gers too dinted.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      I am so glad you asked this, because we are about to remodel and I am so mystified by counter advice like “These are great, just don’t expose them to acid (tomatoes, lemon), or water, or heat.” What are these people doing in their kitchens?

      I honestly really love the basic laminate countertops that came when we bought the house–you could discover an unsuspected puddle (like a tomato had died) and just wipe it up. And they remained unmarred up until last year when my son managed to set a dish towel on fire, so now there are a couple of dings next to the stove.

    7. The OG Sleepless*

      We have composite granite in a dark gray/flecked red and green color (I can’t remember the name but “Ubatuba” was our second choice and the one we have is very similar). I love it. It doesn’t show spills and is easy to clean. We had it installed when we moved here in 2004 and it still looks new. I think there are a couple of tiny chips from something really extreme like my son dropping a heavy car part. Best of all, it’s heat resistant; you can take a dish out of the oven and set it straight on the countertop.

    8. Chauncy Gardener*

      We have honed black granite and it is awesome. We did not have it treated because we didn’t want any chemicals on it. I put hot pans on it all the time. It never stains. I abuse it!

      I have friends with that manmade quartz stuff and they have to be SO careful. Same with marble and slate.
      I highly recommend black granite if that works with your color scheme

    9. Emma*

      I don’t know, but if you get some kind of stone, do your research. My husband was saying that there are certain kinds (granite? quartz? I truly don’t remember!) where if you spill a bottle of hydrogen peroxide, it will eat away the counter, which sounded like a nightmare scenario!

      1. Emma*

        And we have some regular plasticky engineered to look like a dark flecked stone countertop, and I spill stuff all the time, and it’s fine! I think the color is what helps most. My grandparents had a light stone that would stain with stuff like red wine.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          That’s what I ended up putting in last year, dark grey granite-look laminate, and I routinely find surprise spills that weren’t easily noticeable until I was actually wiping the counter in preparation to cook something. (WHY can my husband not wipe up the counter after he fixes himself a snack. :P )

          1. Chauncy Gardener*

            What is this wiping a counter that you speak of?? My husband and son have never heard of it! lol

    10. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I’ve redone two kitchens. I am married to a geologist. Please don’t ever call kitchen counters “granite” in his hearing unless you want a very long explanation/rant about the fact that it’s not really granite. I don’t remember what ours is – some long name that ends in “ite.” It’s a gorgeous dark gray with flecks of blue and silver. It doesn’t show any dirt (to the point where it’s annoying because I can’t tell what needs to be cleaned) and I put hot pots on it all the time without issue. Some stone stains and is more sensitive to heat and some suppliers will call that “granite.” Marble is heat-resistant but very porous and will stain. Same with limestone, which we have in the dining room, bathroom, and on the living room bar – the bar has some rings, which kind of add to the character, and now we have those rubber mats that actual bartenders use.

      Assuming you don’t have a tame geologist to take along, you’ll need to talk to your supplier carefully. I would go to a stone yard rather than a home center. A darker color with some variation will make it less likely to show the spills and a good sealant should reduce the risk of staining, although it will need to be redone every few years.

      Stainless steel gets around all those issues, but I’m a doctor and stainless steel counters look way too much like I’m still at work. Took me 20 years to give in to stainless steel appliances for that reason.

      2. Might Be Spam*

        How do you tell the difference? My landlord says my counters are granite, but when I asked how to care for them he just looked vague and didn’t know if I had to seal them periodically. I don’t think he really knows what they are.

    11. Hotdog not dog*

      My parents have soapstone. Think dark gray/black counter tops from high school science class. They’ve had them for about 20 years and they haven’t stained, chipped, or anything else. Mom puts hot pots directly on them, and they clean up easily.

      1. Newbie*

        I love soapstone and put it in my old house. It’s the best, IMO. It feels good, is indestructible, easily cleaned, etc. I love it.
        My 2nd place and what I’m currently perfectly happy with is…. Formica. It’s not sexy, but it works well, looks fine and if it gets messed up beyond safe/sanitary usage, is inexpensive to replace.

    12. MissB*

      soapstone. It doesn’t absorb anything.

      I used wax on mine to get the black color and to make the veining pop. Of course you can avoid that.

      If you get a scratch, you can literally sand it out. You can set something straight from the burner on it and not worry about cracking.

      Only drawback is that it can be a bit prone to chip on the edge. I’ve had mine for almost 2 years and I only have one chip on the edge. There is a certain edge profile that helps protect it from chipping.

      1. California Dreamin’*

        We put our soapstone in 19 years ago. I love it! It’s so beautiful. It does chip and nick very easily… you have to be okay with that as it’s part of the character of the stone. You can set hot pans on it no problem. In the beginning you’ll have to oil it fairly regularly to keep the black looking nice. I oiled monthly for a long time. But now I’m terrible at keeping up with that and they look fine. I’d probably oil them if I were having an important party because it really does bring out the richness. In my opinion they have a really distinctive warm look that is unmatched by any other counters I’ve seen.

    13. HannahS*

      Quartz. Like, the stuff that’s semi-synthetic, not literal blocks of quartz stone. It’s non-porous, durable, scratch resistant, and is generally just great. I’ve had laminate growing up and in some of my apartments, and while it’s a good option too, it’s just not as durable. I’m someone who cooks a lot and spills a lot. I would never ever get anything porous.

    14. Falling Diphthong*

      Can anyone either explain the logic of desirability of various kitchen countertops, or point me to a layman’s essay on the topic?

      I’m looking at a table right now where laminate looks like the clear winner based on things like resistance to stains and heat, followed by solid surface–the cheapest and second cheapest, respectively–and yet I know that those are respectively considered the shoddiest and second shoddiest options. I feel like remodeling without putting in stone countertops is the wrong choice, but laminate actually functions really well! I don’t understand.

      1. MissB*

        It is such a personal choice. When I started planning for my kitchen, I realized that at this point in my life – dh just retired, I’ll probably retire in about a decade – our choices of materials was based on the idea that this was the last kitchen we’d be doing. We plan on aging in place so we picked items that would in theory outlast us.

        If we were selling in a few years, we wouldn’t have spent as much on the kitchen as we did and might have chosen composite material for the counter.

        I want to walk into my kitchen in a decade or two and not feel like it is dated. I chose what were/are considered timeless choices. I could’ve opted for leathered granite for the countertops but the soapstone was only slightly more, and in my opinion, will still be around when I no longer own the house.

        My brother just redid the kitchen for the house that my mom lives in. She’s in her mid-80s and he probably will sell the house after she dies. He didn’t get high end surfaces. The cabinets were from Home Depot as were the counters. Neither the cabinets nor the counters are going to last, but that kitchen won’t see a whole lot of use either.

        You do you! If solid surface or laminate are what you want/can afford, then it’s the perfect choice. Kitchens have to be functional, they don’t *need* to look like an HGTV dream kitchen.

      2. RLC*

        Wonder if it has something to do with perceived luxury/desirability/status based on cost? We have 30 year old laminate counters just now showing wear at the edges, no stains or scratches.
        Similar to the basic/reasonably priced car or clothing item which far outlasts the expensive version. Status vs practicality.

      3. office hobbit*

        My impression is stone is ~trendy right now but it hasn’t always been. And of course it’s expensive and pretty, which people like. Get whatever will work best for your lifestyle. I have formica or laminate countertops that I think were put in when the kitchen was redone in the 70s, and they’re honestly great.

    15. Part time lab tech*

      Laminate and stainless steel would be the most durable and stain resistant. Laminate is the least status but from a practical point of view, it works!
      It comes in a multitude of colours and patterns, requires very little maintenance and is cheap enough to replace. I have also seen pictures of contrasting laminate on the inside of drawers and I think it looks great but we’re going for standard white.
      Personally, I covet some dolomite(?) “Pilbara Green” marble for our island bench but can’t justify the expense. There are also porcelain benches with pictures of stone which are gorgeous too.

    16. Zelda*

      We put in a Corian countertop in 2010 that’s still going strong. Ours is a flecked pattern meant to resemble granite, with a light background (silver birch, which I see is still available). You could probably choose a warmer hue or a medium tone, as well– I think rosemary is nice!

    17. lilybeth*

      I am pondering a future kitchen remodel and the one thing I am adamantly against is any kind of engineered-stone countertop. There are a lot of advantages people talk up, but there is also a mounting pile of evidence that making them is incredibly hazardous to the health of the workers (silicosis outbreaks among the workers). So as much as I hate to be That Killjoy, I’m just going to put that information out there. Maybe inquire pretty rigorously about materials and fabrication if you want to go that way.

      A couple links:
      https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/07/24/1189745247/silicosis-young-workers-kitchen-countertops-lung-damage-california
      https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2023/07/425871/deadly-dust-engineered-stone-making-california-workers-sick

  11. Sloanicota*

    Are people following the Charlotte Cowles story about being scammed by IRS (among other) impersonators? I thought it was brave of her to share it and was sorry that most of the hot takes I’ve seen in various comment sections aren’t too sympathetic (mostly because she’s a financial advice columnest). I hope we can learn something about the various scams … I suspect she’s right that, if not this exact scam, but *a* scam would work on anyone, even people who think they’re far too savvy to fall for it. Link in my next comment if you haven’t seen it.

    2. Cookies For Breakfast*

      “if not this exact scam, but *a* scam would work on anyone, even people who think they’re far too savvy to fall for it.” – I completely agree with that. Scams work when they hit on the mark’s vulnerabilities and we all have at least one.

      My partner told me about the article this week, because he was enjoying one of the “funny” reaction tweets. I found it the opposite of funny. Recently, a friend was telling me how her elderly mother spotted one of those “hi mum, new number, text me here” scam messages, and my blood ran cold, because I can’t be sure that my own very rational mother would think twice if someone impersonated me like that. I nearly fell for a particularly realistic email from a travel site recently, because it flagged the risk of losing a booking for an imminent work trip, and even after doing some due diligence it seemed to make sense. I also know someone who is now deep into a pyramid scheme that preys on body image insecurity; if she had been peddling it when we were “friends” in our early 20s, I would likely have taken the bait.

      I have read and listened to a lot about scams, and my main takeaway is always that there is one, out there, that could work on any of us. If we have never felt at risk before, it’s just because we haven’t seen *that* one yet.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        There’s a specific type of con artist that targets doctors. They make ideal marks because they’re intelligent and educated (so they don’t think they’d ever fall for a scam) but many don’t have a lot of financial training so they can be lured into phony investments very easily.

        1. RLC*

          There’s also a type who targets veterans and retired military. Family member, retired high ranking military, was victim to one. Even after we closed bank accounts, cancelled phone service, etc the scammer still kept contacting him (even after he moved to care home!!!) Had to alert switchboard and front desk to have them screen calls, only callers who knew a password were rung through to his room.

    3. BellaStella*

      Last year a friend’s father who lives in the USA got scammed. The criminals were calling him and he ended up going to seceral banks to get over 10,000$ out of the banks and gave it to them. All day he drove around ignoring his phone ringing from family and in the end they could report it but will never get it back. Second time he was scammed. I think when you are late 80s you are gullible and vulnerable and it is so sad to see this happen. The family says they cannot take away his car or phone or computer. Just hope it does not happen again.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I’ve certainly heard of it happening to older people and that makes sense to me, if they’re less familiar with the norms of scamming, but I thought it was interesting this is a young married mother who writes financial advice and it still worked on her.

    4. The OG Sleepless*

      My MIL fell for several small scams over the years, because she was a sweet, earnest person who just didn’t always think. Someone attempted to pull the “grandparent scam” on her once (a young man called her pretending to be my son and said he needed bail money) and I’m still really proud of her for not falling for it. She would have done anything for my kids and if it involved getting them out of trouble without me finding out, even better. People who would do this kind of thing to vulnerable people are the lowest of the low.

      1. Sloanicota*

        It really is crappy when people play on the generosity of others. It makes the world a worse, more suspicious place for all of us!

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        Let me rec Mrs Plansky’s Revenge by Spencer Quinn, about a woman who falls for the “Grandma? It’s me” scam, feels utterly humiliated, and sets out to get revenge on the scammers.

    5. WellRed*

      Just read article on this!! Why oh why did none of the admonishments for secrecy not clue her in? Why would the CIA be involved? Frustrating and heartbreaking and aggravating.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yeah, I spent the whole article going “Oh honey,” like so much of this should have been really waving red flags. I get that hindsight is 20/20, but wow.

      3. Nessness*

        She mentioned more than once how tired she was after so long on the phone, and how she just wanted it to be over, which made me think of how cops can elicit false confessions if the interrogation goes on long enough. Fear and exhaustion can eventually override the more rational part of your brain.

        1. Sloanicota*

          Yeah I think a lot of people are victim blaming and saying it would never happen to them, and maybe some specific part of it would be less effective on them (the phone call, say) and it’s good to remember stuff like “don’t answer calls you don’t recognize,” but something else equally stupid could get you. These guys were spoofing, so the call could appear to come from a family member or it could be a text. It’s like cults and brainwashing – these techniques work, on all of us, on our primitive brains that we don’t control. I realize we don’t want to believe we can be manipulated into buying things or shocking strangers or supporting fascist governments, but …

        2. responding to the Cut article*

          Yeah. While I don’t think this particular scam would work on me, based on some experiences I’ve had in the past, the secrecy/govt involvement pings some existing anxieties I have, and I can absolutely imagine how someone might fall for it.

      4. AvocadoQueen*

        Amazon doesn’t call you. The very first thing just isn’t a thing that happens.

        My thing is, never answer the phone if it’s not a friend or parent. If the bank calls, hang up and call back to thr number on your bank statement/credit card. Very few things, even fraud, are that urgent. Our bank actually did call us about credit card fraud, and ny partner ignored it thinking it was a scam. The bank sent a letter and a week later it was still easy to get it all cleared up (next time he’ll just call back).

        1. Goldfeesh*

          Nor could I believe the FBI or CIA or any huge government agency would call me to do *anything*. I’m not living in some CSI/X-Files storyline. I’d think that’d make someone think a little at least.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          I had that happen to me–my husband said “hang up” and I did, and we spent the next hour getting calls from different (obviously spoofed) numbers from the same “Amazon Center.” Once they think they may have you hooked they are relentless.

        3. Washi*

          Amazon can call you! A NYT piece on the subject reported they do occasionally call to verify purchases, though of course they are not going to transfer you straight to the FTC.

    6. Tiny Clay Insects*

      It reminded me of that horrible story about the fast food worker being manipulated over the phone (it was made into a movie, Compliance). And she talked in the article about the comparison to how false confessions are gotten by interrogators. It made me feel horrible for her. I can’t imagine it happening to me, and I hope I’m right about that, but also, who cares if it wouldn’t happen to me, personally? It’s still horrifying.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yeah I took like one psych class in college and they talked about how terrifyingly susceptible we are to authority figures and going along with social pressures. I’m thinking of that experiment with the different length lines, the thing with the people pretending to be prison guards, and the one where people shocked imaginary partners to death. And we’re all so sure we would do better.

    7. OtterB*

      I just took an online cybersecurity class for work, and it pointed out that some of these things are really easy to fall for. They look like messages that you deal with routinely, except the link is a slightly-mispelled clone. Or the account of a coworker or family member has been hacked and so you’re getting a sketchy message from a trusted source.

      I get annoyed sometimes at how much time we all have to waste, and how cynical we’re forced to be, because of these jerks.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        What gets me is how much time, effort, and energy is expelled by the scammers on these things–it’s a whole shadow economy. How is this better than just getting a job?

        1. Lurker*

          Because you might have to work for a year to earn $50k (and pay taxes on it), but if you can scam just one person (as in the example), you could make $50k tax-free in one day. Okay, maybe they had to split it 3 ways, but there’s still the potential of more cash money with less work. They’re working smarter, not harder! :/

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          While I agree with you, I would imagine that for many of these people, at least the rank and file, jobs may not be so easy to come by. I suspect that for a lot of those employed by these scam companies, it’s the only job they can get.

    8. ShroomLog*

      I personally think she lost the money some other way and this is a cover up. 50K in a shoe box? Your bank allowed you to withdraw 50K without questions? I had to justify $5K in closing costs to my bank…

      1. Sloanicota*

        It’s kind of amazing to me that people would have 50K liquid in a bank account, TBH, but that’s probably due to the fact that I’m not wealthy and this person apparently came from wealth. My gut instinct is that she wouldn’t come up with such a public and embarassing story just as a cover up, particularly because (as she points out) this story is hazardous to her own career as a financial advice giver, but I suppose a shocking confessional to get people talking could be a good way to get a book deal or something.

      2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

        New York magazine, where this was published, has a rigorous fact checking process. Journalists also stake their careers on their integrity, so… faking something like this (a REALLY weird thing to fake, btw) would risk blowing up her livelihood.

        1. o_gal*

          I wouldn’t count on their fact checking processes too much. I’m not saying the article is fake – I’m pretty sure it’s a true account. But even the New York Times has been fooled – read the Wikipedia page on Jayson Blair. He got away with an awful lot until they finally questioned enough things he wrote.

      3. Clisby*

        Hmm – I don’t find that particularly surprising. A few months back we did an expensive renovation project where a couple of the payments to the contractor were > $30,000. We do online banking and the bank did flag it, but all I had to do in response to their query was to say yes, go ahead and pay it.

    9. Maggie*

      Yeah, people are being super mean to her and I think it’s unproductive. The situation she describes is hard to fathom but I think it’s awesome she spoke out bc there’s so much shame in it, and it does happen!

    10. Girasol*

      It’s a good reminder that when anyone calls saying that some account of yours is compromised and you need to do something about it right away, tell them nothing. Instead, hang up and immediately call the company in question, so that you know for sure who you’re talking to. It’s so easy to get caught up in the crisis and forget that the caller might be a fraudster, so it’s nice to be reminded by a story like this.

      1. shteripecas*

        I read something recently that was something like scammers can not hang up on their end (more complicated than that), so when you hang up and redial, you still get the scammers. The advice was to use a different phone to call the bank, or wait a few minutes.

        2. Girasol*

          The point isn’t to redial the number that called you. You hang up and go look up the correct phone number for the bank or credit union or whoever was supposed to have been calling, and then dial that. Then the business can tell you if they just called you with a problem or if it wasn’t them who called you in the first place.

    11. Slinky*

      Yes. It gives me the creeps because I can so easily see how it would happen. My husband fell for a similar, though much smaller, scam. We were lucky. We only lost $100 and were able to recovery it, but it’s easy to see how people fall for these kinds of scams. My husband was initially too embarrassed to tell anyone but eventually shared with some close friends and family, who shared that they’d had similar experiences. It is so, so common but few people share out of shame. It is really brave of her to share.

    12. slashgirl*

      Yeah, one of my aunts (in her 70s), who lives with my mother, recently got a phone call from her grandson. Because he called her Grammie, she used his name, so they got his first name; anyhow, said he had been with friends, stopped by the cops, drugs were found, he wasn’t allowed to tell anyone, he needed some money.

      Luckily, one thing my aunt HATES doing is spending money she doesn’t have to. Plus the whole “not allowed to talk about” it bit had her suspicious/it didn’t really sound like her grandson and she knows her grandsons’ parents would always help him out, no matter what. So she started asking questions–like “What are your parents’ names?” She was on the ball and didn’t get scammed but it’s easy to see how it can happen.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Good for her! One of the techniques of the scam is to cause panic and urgency such that the victim doesn’t have time to think through such questions, so she did a great job remaining cool headed!

  13. Jackalope*

    Reading thread! Share what you’ve been reading and give or request recs. I’m going to answer with my own books a bit later but wanted to start the thread up.

    1. Jackalope*

      Okay, I have to share this book with youall! I just finished an amazing book called Book of Queens by Pardis Mahdavi. It’s a nonfiction book about women from Iran, Afghanistan, and Turkey being total badasses. More specifically, it’s about a handful of women who brought the Caspian horse breed back from near extinction (they are possibly the oldest breed of domesticated horses on the planet); and a connected group of women who found a set of caves near the Iran/Afghanistan border and started a refuge there for girls and women undergoing abuse and violence. They lived there for several decades (the author was silent on whether they are still there), and spent a lot of time protecting their region from the (won’t say it to try to avoid this going to moderation, but the group of religious fanatics controlling most of the country right now). They did this while living in caves (in case you missed that part) and patrolling the area with their Caspian horses that they got in large part from the first group of women (who also smuggled said girls and women over the border and to the caves). It was amazing and awesome and those women are my HEROES now.

      2. BellaStella*

        There is a movie out that this book reminded me of and it is called Last Song from Kabul. It was great to watch. “The riveting, heroic story of young orphaned girls whose music school was closed after the T….n took over Afghanistan as they escape to Portugal to try and rebuild their fractured lives and begin to play music again.”

      3. Nervous Nellie*

        WOW. Done – added to my library list.

        On related note – The Bookseller of Kabul by Asne Seierstad, also non-fiction, adds more layers about women’s daily lives there. It was a very good book, described as the best description of day to day life written to date. This new one sounds fantastic. I hope these brave women know we are cheering for them worldwide.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I want this one as well! And to finally read Reading Lolita in Tehran. I don’t know why I haven’t yet; Lolita is one of my favorite books and I really enjoy reading essays and writings about it.

    2. Pamela Adams*

      T. Kingfisher’s latest, What Feasts at Night. Ruritanian fantasy, and a sequel to What Moves the Dead. I love her work.

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      I’m reading A Power Unbound by Freya Marske and it’s… fine. I really liked the first book in the trilogy but was disappointed by the second, and this protagonist is someone I didn’t enjoy as a side character. I’m also here for the historical fantasy and prefer my romance PG13 so I kind of feel like I’m missing the point because I didn’t realize going into the first book how “spicy” it would be (this is the series from the letter awhile back about accidentally recommending smut to their boss, lol).

    4. Free Meerkats*

      Currently listening to “The Girl in the Green Silk Gown” by Seanan McGuire in the car. Second book in her Ghost Roads series.

      Just finished reading T. Kingfisher’s latest, What Feasts at Night on Kindle (see above.) Filling time reading a collection of short stories “Big Book of Modern Fantasy” edited by Ann Vandermeer and Jeff VanderMeer while I decide what’s next.

      On paper, I’m reading “Furry Nation: The True Story of America’s Most Misunderstood Subculture” by Joe Strike.

    5. Peregrine*

      I’ve just started listening to Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao – wasn’t sure I’d like this one so borrowed a copy from the library. I’m digging it so far.

      I hope you don’t mind the piggy-back but I do have a question for other audio book people: what is up with this recent trend of calling it “reading”? I enjoy them myself and they are in no way worse than reading a book with your eyes, don’t get me wrong, but recently I’m seeing people say things like “I’m reading this on Audible” and I’m just here like…why? You’re not using the same senses? Is this some attempt to validate the experience in the eyes of “audiobooks are inferior” people?

      1. Jessica*

        You mean saying they’re “reading” an audiobook as opposed to listening to it? Hmm. If you [verbed] a Braille book, what word would you use for it?

        1. Peregrine*

          You know, I’m glad you bring that up because I would refer to that as reading!

          I’ve also discussed this with a blind friend before who argued that the entire point of an audiobook is that she isn’t reading it, just like you wouldn’t say someone who is having a book read to them by someone live is reading the book.

        2. Lexi Vipond*

          I find it odd (incongruous, rather than morally wrong) because they’re completely different experiences for me – I wouldn’t say (or feel) that I was reading a radio programme, or a lecture, and an audiobook doesn’t seem any different.

          But still reading for Braille – apparently it’s the words being on a page that matter to me, not whether you use your eyes.

          1. allathian*

            To me the big difference is that most people acquire spoken language more or less without conscious effort during the first three years of their lives, even if the ability to learn new words is lifelong.

            Reading is a skill that children usually acquire at school, even if reading levels vary a lot.

            Non-verbal people are often profoundly disabled and rarely able to live independently unless they’re able to learn to read and write. Reading difficulties can make life difficult in cultures where reading and writing skills are necessary, but it’s only since the invention of the printing press that more than a tiny minority of the population has been literate, in the West at least.

            I guess I’m a bit of a reading snob, and I include braille in this, but I don’t count listening to audio books as reading. It’s a valid way to consume entertainment or information, but not the same as reading.

            I don’t listen to audio books or podcasts because I’m a fast reader and find it difficult to focus on audio content.

            1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

              I want to encourage you to think a bit more about your casual “reading levels vary a lot” comment. For people with dyslexia or other reading challenges, their ability to comprehend narrative or information is far beyond their ability to decode print. Audiobooks let them absorb text at the level they’re interested in. My 11-year-old struggles with “Wimpy Kid” books if reading print, but just finished reading “To Kill a Mockingbird” via audiobook.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I mean, the point is that they’re consuming the content of the book, regardless of literally how the words are getting into their brainpan for contemplation. What’s the point of being pedantic about it?

        1. Peregrine*

          I’m not trying to be pedantic, just trying to understand a trend I’ve noticed relatively recently. Been listening to audiobooks for ages (I was not a good at reading as a child, still am not with long texts) but it’s only recently that I noticed people referring to it as reading more and more.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            I meant generically, not you in particular :) to rephrase, if the content of a book is going into someone’s head, whether by reading it themselves with their eyeballs or through their fingertips or having it read to them by their partner or by Samuel L Jackson, the overall outcome is the same, so it seems easier to me to focus on that outcome and sum it all up as “reading” rather than to be pedantic about the exact means of consumption, unless there’s an actual reason it matters in context. I rarely use audiobooks but when I have done I have always included them on my reading list for the year.

            2. word nerd*

              Your comment suddenly made me realize that I would like Samuel L Jackson to read to me, which I had not ever thought about before.

          3. IT Manager*

            My friend who is a reading specialist Eg creates curriculums and strategies at scale based on science to get kids to read, says categorically that “listening to audio books” is the same brain activity as “reading a paper book” and she labels it reading. She has a different name for the wholly different skill of parsing written symbols into language, which I forget – something technical sounding!

        2. Lurker*

          I think that reading (really reading, like words/braille on a page) is always an active experience. Reading a physical book requires that you be present in the moment — it’s very hard to multi-task when reading something (or reading to someone). But listening can be passive or active. I think most people are passive listeners the majority of the time because it’s hard work to be an active listener. I’d guess that a lot of people who listen to audio books are doing something else at the same time (like driving to/from somewhere, cleaning, etc.). You can’t do that if you’re reading.

          I admit I’m a snob about stuff like this. I don’t listen to audio books and don’t consider listening to audio books reading.

      3. Still*

        Well, I think the word reading can have slightly different definitions, and depending on the context, it makes sense to emphasise different aspects of it. Of course, it commonly means “absorb written words with your eyes”, but when talking about books, it often doesn’t matter how exactly you’ve consumed it as long as the content got into your brain.

        If someone asks me “hey, have you read this book?”, I’m gonna say “yes”, without necessarily specifying “yes, with my bare eyeballs from a piece of dead tree”, or “yes, on a tablet”, or “yes, with my fingertips, in Braille”, or “yes, with my ears from an audiobook”, or “yes, my mum read it to me”. Because the relevant part is that I’ve consumed the book and I’m familiar with it.

        And in some other contexts, it might make sense to make the distinction; if I’m talking about what I like to do in my spare time, “curling up with a book and a cup of tea” is quite different than “listening to an audiobook while decluttering my closet”.

        I very rarely listen to audiobooks because I’m incredibly picky about narrators, and I myself use the word “listen” when referring to audiobooks… but I can totally see why people would just say “read”. It’s the verb most commonly used for consuming books and it most cases, the format doesn’t really matter.

        Plus, it’s really common for words to expand their definitions to include new cultural and technological phenomena.”Liking” expanded from just a feeling to a specific expression of that feeling online. “Snoozing” expanded from just taking a nap to using a specific setting to postpone the alarm on your phone in the morning. And “reading” expanded from absorbing words with your eyeballs, to consuming content that’s produced primarily in a written form (which is why we don’t read podcasts or the radio).

        A funny example of meaning change from Swedish: the younger generation commonly refers to hair ties as “ponytails”. As in, “do you have a ponytail I could borrow”? Cause that’s what you use to make one.

      4. word nerd*

        As someone who got into audiobooks just in the last few years, I have this default in my head that reading = consuming the contents of a book. When I get into conversations with others about books, it’s often in response to “What have you read lately?” or “Have you read XXX?” It would feel weird to me so say, “Well, I have not *read* XXX, but I did listen to…” or “I listened to book 1 in the series and read book 2 in the series and listened to book 3 in the series” rather than “I read the whole series.” When I talk about book content with others, it just doesn’t seem that relevant whether it was reading vs listening unless it’s a discussion about a particular audiobook narrator or discussion of how the listening vs. reading experience differs. Occasionally I will use “listen,” but I have often have to think about saying that consciously. I don’t feel shame about converting to audiobooks (kind of have to for most of my “reading” now since I’ve developed some eye problems), so it’s not a matter of consciously trying to hide that I was listening to a book instead I think. I get why the imprecision bugs you, but I’d be up for making up a new word that means “either reading or listening”! :)

        1. Nervous Nellie*

          I’m with you on that one. I’m in the ‘call it all reading’ camp. I too am not going to clarify to a friend that I listened to an audiobook as opposed to reading the book in hand. When someone asks if you’ve read a book, they’re not asking about the delivery method, but whether you know the story. It’s all reading to me.

          And I will add that when I was really small, Mum would take us to the library every other Friday to refresh our mountain of signed out books, and in addition to books that we chose, she would select slightly harder and older-level books for us that she would read to us. I can remember many occasions when I would point out a book to her, not knowing that she had already read it to us, and she would always say, “You’ve already read that one.” So I come by it honestly!

        2. Peregrine*

          Hij, I have always changed it to “listened”. Like if someone asked me “have you read X” I’d answer “oh yeah listened to that one last month”.

        3. Peregrine*

          Also it’s not bugging me per se, it’s just…15 years ago I didn’t hear anyone call it listening, but now that audiobooks are a lot more popular (thankfully! So many more options now) suddenly people are all over the internet calling it “reading” as well. To me it always felt like they were trying to justify that listening to an audiobook is of equal worth – which it is – to reading on paper of electronically, but then I’m like…Justifying it to whom? People who look down on audiobooks aren’t magically going to change their opinion because we all decided to call it reading too, and if you have to justify it to yourself…I would feel sorry for you that that is something you feel is necessary.

          I’m honestly glad the general consensus just seems to be “it’s more practical that way”.

      5. Shiara*

        This is interesting to me because I do personally feel like there’s a difference in how I process and retain information when reading or listening and I’ll say I’m listening to something if I’m consuming the audiobook. But once I’m done I will say I’ve read it, regardless of the format.

        Also, having a young child who can’t read yet, obviously any books they’ve read, have actually been read aloud to them, but it still feels reasonable for them to say they’re reading The Hobbit.

        1. Jay (no, the other one)*

          Definitely a difference in the experience. I don’t differentiate afterwards if I’m talking about the content of a book – only if I have something to say about the narrator of an audiobook or the editing of of a physical book (typos and usage errors make me twitch).

      6. GoryDetails*

        I don’t have a problem with people referring to the audiobook experience as “reading” – indeed, if I’m asked if I’ve read a book that I listened to on audio, I’ll say “yes”. [Whether I go on to explain that it was an audiobook depends on the context of the question.]

        Yes, the experience of reading print is different from that of listening to audio, but I’m not irked by having somebody say “read” instead of “listened to”. [I do get more irked by abridged versions of books, fwiw; if the only version of a book that I can find is an abridged one I might read/listen to it, but I’ll be sure to mention that was abridged whenever I talk about it. For me that’s way more significant than whether the book was experienced in print or in audio!]

      7. 248_Ballerinas*

        I use Audiobooks more than I used to because of some vision problems and it’s easier to just say that I read a particular book than to spell out that I listened to it. I realize that I’m missing something by not seeing the book in print, but c’est la vie.

      8. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        My dyslexic son uses audiobooks for most of his reading. We absolutely call it reading – it engages the same parts of the brain whether the text gets there via eyes or ears. It’s also very important for us to affirm his self-conception as someone who reads, after years of not thinking of himself that way. (He’s 11 now, was diagnosed at 8.)

      9. MeepMeep123*

        I dunno. As long as the information gets into your brain somehow, what’s the difference?

        My wife and I are reading the same book for a book club we are both in. The exact same book, exact same author, exact same words. I’m a fast reader and I read that book on my phone as an e-book. My wife likes to listen to audiobooks while she walks or while she’s cooking, so she listened to the audiobook on her phone. Talking to my wife about the book, it seems like we both retained about the same amounts of information from it. Should there be that much of a difference in what it’s called?

        And if there is, does it then matter that I consumed that book on my phone as an e-book rather than getting it on paper? I remember the e-book/paper book debate, too.

    6. Jen Erik*

      Some marketing person has thought up the term ‘romantasy’ – at least, I’ve read several articles all very recently that use the term.
      What I think I want to read though would be more ‘cozy’ fantasy. I’m thinking ‘Legends & Lattes’ where an Orc tries to open a coffee shop, ‘A Coup of Tea’ where a princess gives up princessing and works in a tea shop or the first of the Monk & Robot books where a monk decides to become a tea monk.
      Could we call the genre Fantastea?
      I’ve read the second in all those series, but does anyone have any other suggestions? Doesn’t have to be a tea shop, just low stakes fantasy. (I’ve read most of T Kingfisher.)

      1. Ali*

        The Very Secret Society of Irregular Witches by Sangu Mandanna, romance arc but the romance is very secondary to a found family narrative. I haven’t read it, but pretty sure Emily Wilde’s Encyclopaedia of Faeries is very much this niche. Also, all of T.J. Klune.

      2. OtterB*

        I may have rec’d this here before, but I like To Hive and to Hold by Amy Crook. It’s set in a world like ours but some years ago magic began to work, and now there’s a mix of magic and of still-functioning tech. An apothecarist with a hive of magical bees on his roof meets his new neighbor, a magical tattooist. They barter with neighbors to get the materials to expand the bee hive, plus for food / clothes / etc., while having a slow-burn, low-angst romance.

      3. Pam Adams*

        Try Natalie Kritzer. She has a lot of short fiction and a few novels. Look for So Much Cooking- free on tor.com

        1. OtterB*

          Repeating my response from the out-of-nesting comment below.

          I love Kritzer and So Much Cooking, but that should probably have tw for pandemic and worries for family during pandemic.

          Also, if you haven’t read it, Kritzer has a recent story in Uncanny Magazine called The Year Without Sunshine. Excellent story about people in a natural disaster / challenge pulling together to help each other.

      4. Jen Erik*

        Brilliant. I haven’t read any of those (apart from The House in the Cerulean Sea, which Alison recommended) so that gives me lots to work through. Thanks!

      6. word nerd*

        Now I totally want to read A Coup of Tea! I second the Irregular Witches suggestion <3, and most Diana Wynne Jones is cozy. Also Patricia Wrede's Enchanted Forest Chronicles and Cecelia and Kate books. Ella Enchanted is my favorite middle grade book and leagues better than the movie. For adult books, T. Kingfisher's Swordheart, and maybe the Saint of Steel series, which starts with Paladin's Grace, also set in that world.

        And since you mentioned Fantastea, I feel like I have to mention Tea with the Black Dragon. :)

        1. OtterB*

          Oh, Enchanted Forest is a great addition to this list. It’s one of my favorite comfort re-reads.

          A couple of weeks ago there was a webcast from Loyalty Bookstore of a comfort read/watch discussion between T Kingfisher, Martha Wells, Malka Older, and KJ Charles. There’s a watchable recording. Lots of good suggestions there, although they pointed out during the discussion that “comfort” doesn’t mean “nothing bad happens.” Sometimes it means that bad things happen, but it comes out okay in the end with the good getting rewarded and the bad getting their comeuppance.

          1. word nerd*

            Yes, I’ve read it a bunch too. Btw, did you know that “Wrede” is pronounced “Reedy”? I just found that out this year and now I feel like I have to spread the word!

            That discussion sounds fun–I’ll have to check it out! Yes, I should probably add that T. Kingfisher does have plenty of dark elements, but somehow the interactions and dialogue between characters is generally so good-natured and sweet that she falls firmly in the cozy category for me.

            1. OtterB*

              Me too, for the most part. I am really not a horror reader at all, but I’ll read hers. Although I do get a bit creeped out by the dark elements in some of the not-horror books.

    7. 248_Ballerinas*

      I just finished a nonfiction book from 2008, Merle’s Door, by Ted Kerasote. A man and his dog, but not just a man and his dog. Kerasote weaves in research on canine behavior in an engaging way.

      He keeps it real about the work involved in dog ownership, which I appreciated. I do not plan to ever have a dog, and this book helped me realize that’s the right decision for me. I mean that as a compliment to the author.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      Stone Blind by Natalie Haynes, a retelling of the story of Medusa. Really well told, and there are a whole lot of parts that your secondary school course on Classic Greek Myths decided were too risqué for young minds, which quite change the whole thing for a modern reader. (Medusa was cursed by the gods for being the victim of a crime. She was living quietly in a cave so she wouldn’t hurt anyone when the gods decided to send a young person to chop her head off while she slept.)

      I previously read her nonfiction Pandora’s Jar, which included the interesting point that 20th century adaptations of the myths–the ones many of us are probably most familiar with–tend to give women even less of a role than the ancient Greeks did. Like reassigning Medea’s feats helping Jason to be Jason’s feats while Medea looked on.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I just started Pandora’s Jar! I can’t wait to read the rest of her stuff.

        And yes, the actual myths that don’t clean up the rape, incest, and lifelong ramifications to the victims are quite a slap with a dead fish to people who grew up with “kid’s” versions and Clash of the Titans as reference points.

    9. Falling Diphthong*

      Summer in Orcus by T. Kingfisher, about a young girl (Summer) who is sent to a magical realm (Orcus) by Baba Yaga. Strong Alice in Wonderland vibes. I liked this, especially the satisfying way it wound up. Baba Yaga voiced something that often bugs me, which is the importance of lower stakes and smaller goals. (If the entire universe will be destroyed if the heroes fail, well, I don’t consider failure to be on the table as a storytelling option.)

      Interestingly, the portal fantasy mentioned both in the book and in author’s notes at the end is Narnia, not Alice.

      The bits about Summer’s mom (who is depressed and anxious and really leans on Summer to support her) will hit differently for different aged readers.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        YES. If the perils of failure are “the world as we know it ends” then I assume the heroes will succeed and now I’m just reading to find out how, so that journey better be good on its own. And if I’m wrong you actually destroy your world at the end, I will not have seen that coming. But I don’t know if I’ve ever actually read anything where that’s what happened?

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Even if Dr. Strange pops in to say “I’ve run the numbers! There is only a 1 in 54,234,901,003,222,185,206 chance that this plan succeeds!”

          The story is usually more gripping if it feels like failure is an option.

          Plug for Chernobyl, in which we know that they did eventually prevent the worst. But the way the story is told you really feel that all the options are on the table and being considered.

          2. goddessoftransitory*

            That’s why Infinity War is probably considered the best of the Marvel movies–there are stakes, and the heroes lose a lot. Thanos gets away with his plan and trying to reverse it costs them even more.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              I eye rolled at Infinity War because I figured there was no way that outcome was actually sticking–I checked my watch and was like “Not really enough time; I guess there’s a sequel where they undo it all.” There was.

              I then quite liked Endgame because the opening actually deals with the grief and sense of loss. After zapping everyone back I feel they’ve really wobbled in terms of acknowledging that this would have consequences, but not following through on those very effectively. Like the nods to how it sucks to be a redshirt.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          Very rarely, I have seen the hero go to massive effort to secure a risky medical treatment that isn’t covered by insurance and only has a 1 in 100 chance of working… and then their loved one is in the 99 out of 100 for whom the treatment doesn’t work. (Wish I could think of an example, but I have actually seen it happen.)

        3. cleo*

          I’ve read exactly one fantasy where that happened and it was one of my favorite reads of 2022.

          I’m not sure if I should name the book after kind of spoiling the ending (although it’s the prequel to a poem, so anyone who reads the poem first also knows the ending).

          But book is The Unbalancing by R.B. Lemberg. It’s really good. It’s like an explicitly LGBTQ+ version of Earthsea and is also completely it’s own thing. Also like a queer, trans Lost City of Atlantis.

      2. OtterB*

        I really liked Summer in Orcus, especially her companions on the journey – Glorious the shapeshifting wolf, and Reginald the regency-mannered hoopoe bird (of the Almondgrove hoopoes, at your service).

    10. Teapot Translator*

      I read The Odyssey, translation by Emily Wilson and a few graphic novels that are not available in English. I’m reading Chaos Terminal by Mur Lafferty. I liked the previous book, but I’m finding it hard to get into this one.

    11. Lilo*

      I read The Fourth Wing to see what the hype was about and my impression is that it’s extremely derivative and the author definitely didn’t earn the twist in the book.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Any further thoughts? (My daughter read it and had a lot of feelings about it… but not enough to make me dive in and add to my reading pile when she didn’t even think she had liked it, just had intense feelings.)

        1. Lilo*

          It’s fine? It reads like YA, to be honest, except for a couple explicit (frankly cringey) sex scenes. The protagonist is the typical “seemingly a bad fit but ultimately the best and most special person” trope. But it’s an easy, fast read.

        2. Jen Erik*

          I agree that it was derivative – as if the author had decided to meld the Scholomance with Twilight, little bit of Pern…
          And just badly written – everything was telegraphed in advance, and the world building made no sense at all – though genuinely, I so almost bought the second book today, because it was reduced, and I’ve a theory that the most ludicrous bit of world-building is a further twist and I want to know if I’m right.
          I loved worse books than this when I was a teenager, though.

    12. Nervous Nellie*

      Two for me – I am continuing on with A Jest of God (Book #2 in the Manawaka series by Margaret Laurence, and am riveted by Mess: One Man’s Struggle to Clean Up His House and His Act by Barry Yourgrau, a hoarding biography from 2015 that I chanced across in the library. Yourgrau is a lyrical New York writer who tells a sympathetic story of immigration, dysfunctional family life and feelings about stuff that all drove his need to hoard out his NY apartment. He recounts his attempts to reform after his girlfriend gives him an ultimatum. So many books on the subject are written by therapists and organizers. This is an intimate peek into the mind of the hoarder himself – his motivations, his reasoning, his concerns and compulsions. He’s a marvelous writer – so much so that I plan to blow off a party tonight to stay home and read!

    13. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Currently reading “Castle Shade” by Laurie R. King – I’ve been catching up on her Mary Russell/Sherlock Holmes series. Also have been re-reading old mysteries that I enjoy because it’s like visiting old friends. Can’t recommend them because they’re laced with homophobia and antiquated gender roles and I’m a little ashamed of myself but it’s the reading equivalent of sinking into a hot bath with a glass of wine.

      Also recently finished “I’m Glad My Mom Is Dead” by Jennette McCurdy. Not exactly fun to read – memoirs of abuse usually aren’t. Very well-written and readable and in the end kind of hopeful. Glad I read it.

      Just downloaded “Ladies and Gentlemen, The Bronx is Burning” to listen to during a long drive tomorrow. It was in the NYT Books newsletter, which recommended “Ball Four.” This one was in the “read if you liked…” list at the end and since I liked “Ball Four” and I’m a New Yorker by birth and a Yankees fan, it sounds like a good match (it’s about baseball and NYC politics in the summer of 1977, which I remember well).

    14. PhyllisB*

      Has anyone read the book We’re All the Same in the Dark by Julia Heaberlin? My granddaughter gave it to me saying it was one of the best books she had ever read.
      So far, I’m underwhelmed, but I haven’t gotten very far either. Without spoilers, is it worth it to keep going? Don’t want to give up too soon, but on the other hand I don’t want to waste my time when there’s so many good books out there.

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I downloaded a Jenny Colgan “Little Beach Steeet Bakery” audiobook that my library finally got in…. and proceeded to weep my way through fair parts of it. It was cathartic for me so that’s a good thing. Main character is introduced with anxiety and agoraphobia that developed after the death of a beloved family member, and her therapy and recovery is as much a part of the plot as the romance. Although it is compressed for requirements of the format, it is not a bumpless linear recovery. It’s well done. I just wish I’d found it a few years ago because it’s too late for my probably agoraphobic late husband.

    16. Rara Avis*

      The 18th book in Laurie R. King’s Mary Russell series just came out, called The Lantern’s Dance. I’m going to a 30-year celebration for the series today.

    17. OtterB*

      I’m reading Malka Older’s new book, The Imposition of Unnecessary Obstacles. It’s a sequel to The Mimicking of Known Successes. It has a Sherlock Holmes, gaslampish vibe. It’s set in colonies in the atmosphere of Jupiter that are connected by rail lines. In the first book Mossa, an inspector/detective, reconnects with her ex-girlfriend Pleiti while investigating a mystery at the university where they met and where Pleiti now works. The second book is also a mystery, looking into missing persons from the university.

      Probably the new T Kingfisher after that.

      1. BikeWalkBarb*

        Oh yay! Love Malka Older’s books. Glad to hear this is out. My library doesn’t have it so I’ll have to request it. Her Infomocracy series is an amazing feat of technology, political economy, political strategy and so much more. Very different for me from Known Successes, but wonderful.

    18. ISO non romance fantasy by women authors*

      Partner and I are trying to read more books by women authors, particularly in the sci fi/fantasy genre. Someone in this thread alerted me to a new word, “romantasy”, which is exactly what we’re trying to avoid! I’m aware of Ursula LeGuin and Robin Hobb (who I love). Any other recommendations? It’s OK if relationships develop but neither of us is interested in a book where that is a focus.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        Dauntless Path series by Intisar Khanani

        Broken Earth trilogy by NK Jemisin (this one gets pretty dark but it’s amazing)

        Circe by Madeline Miller

        Gods of Jade and Shadow by Silvia Moreno-Garcia

        Winternight trilogy by Katherine Arden

        Anything by Alix E. Harrow or Nghi Vo

      2. Decidedly Me*

        Becky Chambers – I recommend the Wayfarers series
        Martha Wells- Murderbot series
        T Kingfisher – anything really
        VE Schwab – Shades of Magic series (some romance, I wouldn’t call it a focus)

      3. Ali*

        Since you like Robin Hobb, Jemisin’s Dreamblood books and Roanhorse’s Black Sun might be good fits, both politicky epic fantasy with decently strong characters.

        If you like Le Guin’s quieter writing and focus on social structure level politics, Arkady Martine or Ronalyn Domingue.

        Also, Octavia Butler, giant of the field, the parable books are an easy starting place with her, or if you are down for weird alien shit the Xenogenesis books.

        For pure fun if you like a sarcastic main character, Martha Wells’ murderbot books.

      4. allx*

        Doris Lessing Canopus in Argos series (5 books). (Sirian Experiments was shortlisted for Booker Prize). Another excellent Lessing contender, (not “space” oriented but more “alternate reality”) is Memoirs of a Survivor.

      6. AcademiaNut*

        Theodora Goss, Lois McMaster Bujold, Marie Brennan, Octavia Butler, Becky Chambers, Katherine Addison, T. Kingfisher, Tanya Huff, Seanan McGuire, Elizabeth Moon, Nnedi Okorafor, Naomi Novik, Martha Wells, Aliette de Bodard, C.J. Cherryh, Susanna Clarke, Alix E. Harrow, Rachel Hartman, Ann Leckie, Patricia McKillip, Robin McKinley, Tamsym Muir, Silvia Moreno-Garcia, Erin Morgenstern, V.E. Schwab, Jo Walton, Jen Williams, Diana Wynne Jones, Janet Kagan, Patricia Wrede, Jane Yolen, N.K. Jemisin, Victoria Goddard.

      7. OtterB*

        Not yet mentioned, Rachel Neumeier, especially the series that begins with Tuyo. A young warrior from the winter country is taken captive by a warleader from the summer country, and they develop a deep friendship while trying to navigate cultural differences and end the war between their peoples and, incidentally, stay alive.

    19. GoryDetails*

      Just finished T. Kingfisher’s “Nettle and Bone,” one of her dark/lovely spins on traditional fairy tales. In this one, the heroine tackles several impossible tasks at the behest of the dust-witch – who, it turns out, didn’t believe she could manage any of them and just wanted her to go away. But having succeeded, there’s a quest to be undertaken, complete with the newly-crafted Bonedog as sidekick… (I spent a lot of the book worrying about what would happen to Bonedog, who was the Best Good Boy despite being, you know, made of bones. Got teary for a bit there, but all was well in the end.) I loved the way the godmothers and magic in general worked – one definitely has to consider the cost. And the use of constructively-worded curses to get benign results tickled the heck out of me.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I also loved that the main character was a full grown adult who had romantic experience and was smart enough not to let her hormones rampage (although she doesn’t deny they sit up and take notice!)

    20. Atheist Nun*

      I finally read My Favorite Thing is Monsters, and it was wonderful. It had been sitting on my bookshelf for years (I had even loaned it to a friend), but I was inspired to read it last week when I saw the electronic advance reading copy for the sequel. Now I can look forward to that!

    21. Bluebell*

      Earlier in the week I read Murderbot #2, and I just finished Lies and Other Love Languages by Sonali Dev. It was a good read, even though the twist was rather obvious.

    22. Mobie's Mom*

      I listened to Women Talking by Mirism Toews on a long car trip yesterday. It’s totally something I never would have finished if u were reading it, despite being very interested in the story, because of the way its written, but I didn’t mind it so much as an audio book. My biggest critique is that there was too much of the narrator’s voice/ story in it – I would have liked for it to focus even more on the women. My husband asked if I liked it, and I told him it was good, but that I’m not sure it’s a book that anyone LIKES. Having said that, I would definitely recommend it – but the people who most need to read it would never!

      1. allx*

        “The Flying Troutmans” and “All My Puny Sorrows” are my favorite of Miriam Toews’ work. Very different in style and content from” Women Talking” with a funnier tone, despite serious subject.

    23. goddessoftransitory*

      Just finished The Twisted Ones, by T Kingfisher–very good and a fun read, but there was a bit too much buildup and the payoff seemed a little shortchanged. It’s still worth reading, for sure, especially since she got the idea from reading Alfred Machin’s The White People, which I had never heard of. He wrote The Great God Pan, so next I’m going to check out that story!

      Also just starting Pandora’s Jar, by Natalie Haynes, with Divine Might lined up next. They’re studies of the women of Greek myth and the goddesses, respectively and so far I’m enjoying the hell out of the first one!

    24. Elizabeth West*

      Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present by Ruth Ben-Ghiat. She discusses the careers and tactics of dictators we all know and hate, including Hitler, scumbag Putin and wanna-be tRump.

    25. Filosofickle*

      I am reading A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles and liking it quite a bit! It follows a count in Russia through decades of his life in the hotel he was confined to after the Bolsheviks deemed him an “unrepentant aristocrat” as a young man in the 1920s.

      It’s very long so it’s taking me several weekends to get through. I’m usually a speed reader but taking my time with this one. It’s quite lovely and thoughtful.

    26. Irish Teacher.*

      Just started reading Christina Koning’s Murder in Dublin.

      I’m only 50 pages into it, so can’t evaluate it too much yet, but it’s an interesting concept. It’s set in 1939, as Britain faces war and a British private detective is asked to Ireland (they don’t seem to be in Dublin; they’re in the country, Wicklow, I think) because an Anglo-Irish landowner is getting threatening letters. They assume the letters are from well, any of those who resent the Anglo-Irish for centuries of colonisation and want the remainder of the aristocracy out (I’m guessing they will turn out to come from closer to home) and they figure there is no point in going to the Gardaí who are more likely to be on the side of the Irish nationalists (in the sense of pro-independence groups, not in the sense of what nationalism was being used to mean in Germany at that time) rather than on the side of the Anglo-Irish.

      The book does, however, think the Blueshirts are Protestant, when they were actually…well, wannabe fascists, which indicates they don’t know the difference between the Irish Civil War (fought between those who wanted full independence and those who were willing to settle for the Treaty of 1921) and the Northern Irish Troubles, which…isn’t a great indication of the research.

      (Given that one of the Blueshirts’ big things was that “Ireland should support Franco because he is Catholic,” thinking them Protestant is…really a failure of research

    28. IzzyTheCat*

      I have just finished Catherine Newman’s first fiction novel, “ We All Want Impossible Things,” and I LOVED it. I wasn’t sure (it sat by my bed for a long time) because the premise of the book is that the main character’s childhood best friend is dying in hospice and the main character is there with her every day – but it ended up being very funny and poignant and it had all of the feels. Also it was short. So although it was at times deep I didn’t wallow too much, if you know what I mean? I would never have picked it up on my own except that I loved her memoir “Catastrophic Happiness” and thought I would give it a try. Highly recommended!

  14. Jackalope*

    Gaming thread! Share what you’ve been playing and give or request recs. As always, all games are welcome, not just video games.

    (I can’t respond right now but will write later about my gaming this week.)

    1. AnalystJ*

      I just bought Dredge and am excited to try it out this weekend. The art style is lovely and it’s something different from the fps I usually play.

    2. Peregrine*

      I played a game called Assemble with Care! You’re basically playing a character who travels the world fixing people’s items for them (and in doing so, also fixing their relationships to other people). It’s a nice cozy puzzle game that I highly recommend.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      I downloaded something called Bubble Pop Dreams. It’s extremely easy and I win every time. I like it when I get frustrated with grinding in other games, and when I’m tired, it’s kind of comforting. Plus I like the noise the bubbles make when they pop.

    5. Giz's Mom*

      Hubby and I were recently introduced to Ticket to Ride at a board game night, and have become addicted. There is also an online option, where you can play against the computer or against other players worldwide. It’s not free, but US $10 will get you the base online game and a few of the expansion. Love this game!

  15. cuppertea*

    Library appreciation thread!

    I’m so glad I have access to libraries, I love borrowing physical books and also the ebooks/audiobooks are so convenient. And now that I’m learning sewing, I appreciate the sewing books in the libraries; those books are so expensive!

    My librarian left a note in the book I had a hold on (they loved the book, have you read this other author, <3 from a librarian) couple weeks ago , and it absolutely made my day. I scribbled a message on the other side, and I'm hoping that librarian gets to see it.

    What are your library stories?

    1. Accidental Itenerate Teacher*

      I’m part of a knitting/crochet/general fiber crafting group at one of my local libraries.
      We haven’t been meeting the past couple of months as the library has been closed while they move into the new, much bigger, library building.
      The new library is finally open and we’re meeting for the first time in the new building this upcoming week and I’m very excited about it.

      1. Accidental Itenerate Teacher*

        But you asked for stories so…
        A different (larger) local library has an outdoor amphitheater type space behind it and when I was a kid the local junior college would put on free Shakespear plays every summer.
        I have so many wonderful memories of my mom taking us to watch them.
        Except for the year we joined some of the other kids rolling down the hill while we waited for the play to start and I managed to roll right into an ant bed. We did not stay for the show that year.

    2. Anonymous cat*

      Not an individual librarian but I’m so glad the libraries do E-audiobooks! It’s so great I can listen to these wherever I am!

    3. Peregrine*

      When my library was moving to a place more easily accessible by car and larger, they did a parade where people could register to carry one of the final books over to the new location.

      It was a lot of fun to do, and the new location is a repurposed convent so it’s a very pretty location too. It also gives them more room for community events and stuff.

    4. Cookies For Breakfast*

      The Libby app singlehandedly solved my frustration with waking up too early and some potential relationship squabbles. And the choice with my library card is huge.

      I’m awake at least two hours before my partner and don’t like getting out of bed so early (I know, I know there’s a million productivity reasons why I should). Reading physical books means turning on a light, which disturbs his sleep. Since I started reading ebooks on my phone (no separate e-reader app, yay!), he doesn’t notice a thing, and I get to do so much reading without leaving my bed before it’s breakfast time.

    5. Atheist Nun*

      Well… I appreciate my library because it pays me, as it is the place where I do what we do not talk about on the weekends–and that remuneration allows me to enjoy the weekends.

    6. Turtle Dove*

      How great to find a librarian’s note in a book!

      Our library hosts free yoga classes that I’m enjoying. The instructor is paid thanks to a millage that boosts community-education programs.

      There are also bagged craft kits for kids that you can take home. This week it’s a spaceship made, I think, with a paper plate and construction-paper cutouts.

    7. Lore*

      There is a branch library at the end of my block next to my subway station and I am there a LOT. Once I was getting on the subway and a woman I didn’t recognize was calling my name (and calling me Ms Lastname, which was odd). When it became clear I didn’t know who she was, she said, “it’s me, the library lady.” It was a librarian from my branch! More recently, I’ve had two of the current branch librarians tell me I have great taste and they take notes for reading recommendations when they shelve my holds.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      Late summer of ’20, I pulled into my library to return my books and pick up the new ones (they did this on tables outside, no contact) and in the corner of the parking lot they had set up a little outdoor library you could browse. Staff Picks, New and Interesting, etc. I am almost moved to tears at the memory of getting to do this little normal thing, strolling around looking at books on the displays.

    9. Usually Lurking*

      When our local library open its doors after the Covid shut-down (it had been open for on-line reserves/pickups all along), I was inside browsing on the very first day and I heard a woman crying. I immediately turned to her – to offer help or support – and she was smiling, while crying! She looked at me and said “I’m just so happy to be back here!”
      Then *I* was crying, too!

    11. ccsquared*

      I love that our libraries have nice reading rooms with a big periodical selection. Sometimes I like browsing fashion or home decor magazines, but it’s hard to justify always buying a copy for myself when I know I’m going to leaf through it once and throw it out. It’s also nice to be in a public space from time to time that isn’t oriented around commerce – like you’re allowed to be there simply by virtue of living in the city, not because you’ve bought an appropriate amount of food and drink.

      The digital periodicals collection is also awesome because they have magazines in a foreign language I speak that I couldn’t even easily get my hands on if I wanted to, plus magazines on every topic or hobby.

    12. Jay (no, the other one)*

      The first day of retirement I renewed my library card. I still buy non-fiction (we have a wonderful new independent bookstore walking distance from my house – HOORAY). I’ve stoped buying fiction completely. I take books out of the library and use Libby for e-books when I travel. My local library is seriously underfunded and switched from Libby to Hoopla because I guess it’s cheaper for them. Luckily the Free Library of Philadelphia will give a library card to anyone who lives in PA and they use Libby.

      As I mentioned in the reading thread, I’ve been re-reading some very old mysteries that I enjoyed as a kid. They’re so old that when I was in the middle of the series they suddenly went missing from the shelves. I asked the nearest librarian where they’d gone, and she explained that they were culling to make room for new purchases and then said “I bet you’re looking for the Dell Shannon books. I was wondering who was reading those.” Now when I stop in and see her we chat about mysteries and our kids. One of her colleagues noticed I was checking out a Louise Penny book yesterday and so now I have someone else to talk mysteries with!

      1. Academic glass half full*

        “I was in the middle of the series they suddenly went missing from the shelves. I asked the nearest librarian where they’d gone, and she explained that they were culling to make room for new purchases and then said “I bet you’re looking for the Dell Shannon books. I was wondering who was reading those.”
        This made me anxious- if the early books were circulating why did they weed the later ones?
        On the other hand- if I am going to start a series I better be ready to grab them all at once.
        (and renew, renew, renew)

    13. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My current relationship with my library is purely digital, as I do 99% of my reading in bed on my phone in the dark, but when I was a wee tiny Reader, I spent a lot of time at the library where my grandmother was a children’s librarian. Though the thing I remember most was that I was one of several winners in the “name our new fish” competition when the library got a fish tank, I named one of the fish Amelia (as in Bedelia), and my prize, aside from the fish being named my pick, was a box of animal crackers.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I spent so much time in the library when I was a kid the librarian would look over and say “your mom called, you need to stay until this rainstorm is over” and I wouldn’t have noticed it raining at all.

    14. PhyllisB*

      I love, love, LOVE my local library!! 95% of what I read comes from there. If it’s not in stock I can usually get it through interlibrary loan.
      I’ve gone so much that the librarians know what I like and will tell me about books they think I’ll like. (They’re usually right!!) Once I came in and the head librarian flagged me down to show me some books she had just received to see if I was interested. Another day I was there reading the area newspapers when she brought a new employee over to introduce me, and told the young lady I was a “special patron” and should always get all the help I needed. Wow!!
      I have commented before that if I bought everything I read, I would have to have another house just for books.

    15. Anonymous from LI, NY*

      When I was tiny, our village library was in an aging Victorian house that we had long since outgrown and was not accessible in the least.

      When the modern building next door was ready, the librarians appealed to everyone to check out as many books on one shelf as they could easily carry. We then returned them to the new library over a period of weeks.

      I remember being so very excited that I wasn’t restricted to 10 books!

    16. Texan In Exile*

      I love my library so much. One of the main reasons we bought our house is because it’s within walking distance of the library. I once calculated how much I would have had to pay for the items I got in a year versus our property taxes and let me say that I am the clear winner on that one.

      I appreciate how librarians are in the forefront of defending some of our rights. I was on my library’s board for three years and I was shocked at how much happened behind the scenes (and now in front, in Wisconsin, where they want school librarians to go to jail for lending certain books to children). So many people get so angry at what’s in the library and librarians stand firm.

      And I really like all the cool free stuff they do! Last night, the Milwaukee Public Library hosted a talk with Jonathan Eig, who wrote “King: A Life.” After Cree Myles’ wonderful interview with him, I am dying to read the book. Next week, they are hosting Beto O’Rourke.

      They have also had Matthew Desmond (Evicted and Poverty, By America), Toya Wolfe (Last Summer on State Street), and Richard Rothstein and Leah Rothstein (The Color of Law). If I had had to pay to see these people, I probably would not have gone.

      1. Texan In Exile*

        Also – we go to Madeline Island (one of the Apostle Islands on Lake Superior) every summer. I sometimes run out of books and have gone to the La Pointe library (which is in an old house and wonderfully cozy and fun). My Milwaukee library card is valid there, but the librarians just wave at me and tell me to bring the books back before I leave the island.

    17. Vanessa*

      Libraries have been my safe space since I was a kid.
      My kids and I go regularly. I have an older elementary kid who is so so on reading but has a discovered deep dives. We’ve gone through the titanic and a couple other topics. The most recent is Galileo (thanks legos). So he reserved every book he could find on the topic (age appropriate or otherwise).
      My kindergartener has discovered librarians all on his own. He slipped away once and I found him at her desk. I apologized profusely and the librarian essentially told me to give her the library card so they can interlibrary loan some more dragon books and then shooed me off. Now he checks in with her every time we are there.
      Add to that all the fun activities- Lego day, robot class, cool stickers, etc. it’s great.

    18. GoryDetails*

      I spent much of my youth in libraries (this was in the early ’60s), whether glomming onto stacks of books to read or, later, spending my summers as a library page working in the stacks. Learned how to repair book-bindings, do the stamping/embossing/labeling of books being added to circulation – and how to go through the shelves making sure books were correctly alphabetized (fiction) or Dewey-decimal-ordered (non-fiction). Though that last wasn’t a good fit for me; I couldn’t browse the shelves without stopping to read some of the books! Luckily for me, the librarians were pretty good sports about that, nudging me to get a move on but not making a big deal of it.

      When I graduated from high school the librarians gave me a set of hardbound Tolkien, “The Hobbit” and “Lord of the Rings”, which they’d been encouraging me to read for years. For some reason I never felt drawn to those – was focusing on science fiction and horror and animal books at the time – but once they gave me the books I dived in, and rapidly became a huge LOTR fan.

      Last time I visited that area – decades ago now – the library building had been expanded beyond recognition, and the librarians I worked for had all retired, but I still think of that time fondly.

      Nowadays I visit the library mainly to buy books from their ongoing book sales, though sometimes I will check books out. [The library was very helpful in my early manga-fan days; they had quite a few series on hand, so I could read them without having to buy a dozen or more volumes.]

    19. fposte*

      I went to a comedy show a few weeks ago where the comedian (Dara O Briain, if anybody knows him) was doing some of his usual initial crowd work, and one of the people he chatted to said they were a librarian. And my friend and I (both library people) whooped, and it turned out so did a lot of people. And the comedian was slightly startled and got a lot of entertaining subsequent mileage out of the raw sexual charisma of librarians.

      (He’s a very intellectually rigorous guy so if he’d realized the linkage between librarians and intellectual freedom, he’d likely have been all over that. But it was fun both to have a very pro-librarian audience and some hilarious treatment of that.)

    20. Nervous Nellie*

      My regional library has a free jigsaw puzzle exchange in their Friends of the Library book sale nook in each branch. I trade out puzzles a couple times a month, and least twice in the last year, I have picked up puzzles that the previous user has presorted – ie. bagging the edge pieces separately from the middle bits, or bagging same-color pieces in separate little ziploc bags. But yesterday was the best – I opened the new puzzle when I got home to see that the previous user had preassembled the end pieces in bagged strips, and because of the very odd cuts and configurations on each piece, I might not even have been able to figure it all out and likely would have given up and traded it back out on my next trip. But their work showed me how the puzzle works, so now I’m confident I can tackle the middle. But the best part is that when I removed all the little bags from the box, there was a note in the bottom of the box that said, “I know, right? You’re thanking me now, aren’t you? LOL.” Heck yeah, I am!

    21. Bluebell*

      When I first moved to this state several decades ago, I loved chatting with one of the librarians as I checked out books. We had similar tastes in fiction, and she often recommended books to me. She left the library, and became a bestselling novelist herself, and I’m always thrilled when she has a new book out.

    22. goddessoftransitory*

      The eclipse thread below reminded me:

      I saw Connie Willis read her fantastic short story “And Come From Miles Around,” about the 1979 full solar eclipse, right after the 2016 election, and it did so much to cheer and encourage me, that as long as we have humor and courage we cannot fail.

    23. Elizabeth West*

      I recently discovered Kanopy, which is free if you have a library card. You get so many “tickets” to spend on movies and shows. There’s a TON of stuff ranging from new to very old.
      And lots for a horror fan to enjoy. So far I’ve watched The Quatermass Experiment (a movie I’ve always wanted to see thanks to Stephen King talking about it in Danse Macabre), Bodies Bodies Bodies (loved it), and F.W. Murnau’s 1922 Nosferatu, which was surprisingly good and creepy for an unauthorized Dracula ripoff.

    24. Cuppertea*

      All your comments bring me so much joy.

      While I’m here, shoutout to my university fiction library that has a fake cay flap on the door, a ‘DO NOT STUDY’ sign that a lot of students ignored, a media room with comics on the shelves and bean bags and a TV screen where they occasionally screened stuff but to me was the most cozy spot for a nap. They also put out a few 1000 piece jigsaw puzzles for community solving (the cat puzzle was completed fastest). I miss having access to that library.

  16. Firebird*

    Are you planning to travel to view the eclipse in April? I’m going on my annual roadtrip to visit my son. I figure that if I time it right, I can just pull off the road during the eclipse and then get right back on the road to hopefully avoid traffic issues. Is there anything I need to consider other than traffic and the glasses?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Getting right back on the the road won’t avoid traffic issues as everyone will be doing that at the same time. During the last eclipse, I was barely making it 10 miles in an hour (if even that….) on the freeway for hours on end. Due to this, make sure you use the restroom beforehand and I wouldn’t skip an available rest area if there aren’t other places to stop at.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        We did the 2017 one in Oregon at a friend’s house and stayed 2 days after. Still, the normal 4 hour drive home took 10.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Food in the totality areas had been razed. The convenience stores attached to gas stations were like something out of an apocalypse movie, with like one Slim Jim on an aisle of otherwise empty shelves.

      2. The Week Ends*

        Same for me in Illinois last time. Agree, traffic will likely be worst with your plan. Can you arrive 6-12 hrs before and stay overnight near that location? Or at least stay 4-6 hours, find a local park with restrooms. Or avoid interstates! Interstate was a parking lot, we used state and county roads.

        1. Lilo*

          Staying overnight, I did still have some traffic. Unless you stay for a couple days over, traffic is just going to happen.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        Google maps went down as we left our eclipse-viewing llama farm in western Oregon–too many people trying to use it at once. (I do remember semi trucks going by during the eclipse, so some people just did drive right on by.)

    2. talos*

      I’m flying to Dallas for it!

      Definitely bring glasses. Optional, but consider a pinhole camera box or one of those Internet products that helps you take photos with your phone through a filter.

      1. Retail*

        I made a viewer in 2017 but had glasses for the eclipse this past October and such a huge difference! Glasses are it.

        I can stay home and see pretty full coverage and the actual band isn’t far north so we’re going but I know everyone else is!

      2. Lilo*

        My advice is to not bother with pictures during totality. This was the advice of scientists at a panel I went to. Totality is very short, eclipse photos are very hard and you don’t want to waste your totality trying to snap a photo. Just leave that to the experts.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I live in the path of totality, so I am explicitly not leaving my property for it. A friend is coming to visit and she may watch it with me from my backyard or she might go somewhere local for a bigger group type gathering, I haven’t heard her decision yet.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        My mom was in the path last time — I watched the 2017 one at her place along with my uncle, her neighbors, and some friends of mine from overseas. I highly recommend seeing a total eclipse at least once in your lifetime. It’s probably the most bizarre thing I’ve ever seen.

        This time, I’m somewhat south of totality, but we’ll have 92% and should still get an interesting diamond ring view. I bought some certified eclipse glasses from Eclipse2024 dot org (same place I got them last time). Buy them now if you’re going to.

    4. Sloanicota*

      I saw it last time and am planning to see it again, and I think what I took away last time was that even *one* badly placed heavy cloud could have blocked the whole thing. On a rainy day I’m not sure you’d see anything! So if you’re doing it as a road trip, I’d say keep an eye on the doppler for the day and day before and aim for the least cloudy location.

    5. Southern Girl*

      We live a 2 hour drive from totality. Planning to make a day trip but traffic after will be a mess as we have to drive past a big city. We still have our solar glasses, binoculars, and eclipse play list from the 2017 eclipse, which was a 7 hour drive. If you can, go to totality as it is amazing.

    6. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Going to Mazatlan. Had the sense to make lodging reservations three years ago. Didn’t have the sense to make plane reservations in time so we’re driving into Guadalajara and driving to Mazatlan. It should take five hours. We’re prepared for it to take 10 or 12 going back.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If there’s any chance you do that trip as an overnight, check NOW if there’s any hotel/motel rooms left.
      Hotel room prices go up when occupancy is high, so rooms may already be more expensive than usual.
      Also I’d suggest you reserve directly with the hotel itself because some online travel agencies have been known to take reservations when there is no availability. And even some corporate central systems can get glitch
      and overbook. (I have friends who used to be in the industry.)

      1. fposte*

        In August of last year I decided to travel and stay over the night before and after, and my first choice town (Carbondale, IL) was already totally booked up. So I’m off to Bloomington, IN and will, as a result of this thread, pack food.

    8. GoryDetails*

      I live in the high-90s-percent band, so I could stay home and hope for decent viewing weather. (Years ago I was able to use a pinhole camera to see a near-total eclipse from the comfort of my hammock – I was impressed at how effective the pinhole camera was!) But I have kicked around the idea of driving a couple of hours to a totality area, though fears of heavy traffic are making me reconsider. (At that distance it’d be feasible to leave pretty early, potter around on side roads until the traffic clears, and come home late, but… well, we’ll see. The weather forecast will have a huge bearing on my decision.)

      3. Sutemi*

        The difference in experience between 95% and totality is quite a bit, so if you can make the drive I highly recommend it!

        1. Cedrus Libani*

          Agreed. 95% is slightly chillier than it ought to be, and if you pay attention there are cool diffraction patterns in the shadows, but it’s certainly not something I’d suggest taking a day out of your life to experience a few minutes of. 100% totality, though? Worth it. I could totally imagine a pre-modern person who didn’t understand what it was, and how utterly freaked they would be, because…wtf where did the sun go? It’s impressive.

    9. RMNPgirl*

      Going to Southern Illinois University in Carbondale. They’re doing a whole event in their stadium with experts. It’s a 7 1/2 hour drive for us but St Louis is on the way so we’re staying there Sunday night and then leaving early to get to Carbondale. We’ll just make the long drive home Monday afterwards.
      We tried to see the 2017 eclipse in Missouri but clouds came in right at totality so we experienced it but didn’t get to see the corona. I’m really hoping we’ll have clear skies this time!

    10. Bluebell*

      I’m visiting family in TX. We are still working out logistics from there, as we have several options where the driving time won’t be too bad, even with scary traffic.
      Related question- Where are people buying their glasses from?

    11. goddessoftransitory*

      No, but I will read Connie Willis’s short story “And Come From Miles Around,” about the 1979 full solar eclipse and how far people are willing to go to witness it!

      I saw her read that story aloud at the Seattle Public Library right after the 2016 election and man, it did so much to give me some hope that all was not lost. (Huh, gonna pop up to the library thread with this story!)

    12. OtterB*

      I’m driving from the DC area to Ohio for it. I made a hotel reservation a month or two ago for Saturday, Sunday, and Monday nights. Planning to drive over Saturday, do some general sightseeing on Sunday including scouting out a place to watch the eclipse from – hopefully close to the hotel – then drive home on Monday. Hotel rooms were already a bit scarce and more than a bit expensive when I made the reservation. I looked at Cleveland first and couldn’t find much of anything. Ended up at Cuyahoga Falls, which I think will be interesting. I bought some eclipse glasses and a (not very expensive) cellphone camera gadget and app, but I may not bother to try to use the phone camera.

          1. OtterB*

            That’s the main thing on my Sunday sightseeing list, probably including a ride on the scenic train. I have driven through Ohio multiple times coming and going from DC to Chicago, but never gotten off the highway. I’m looking forward to seeing the park.

      2. OtterB*

        Thanks for the suggestions about food. Our hotel room has a kitchenette and I planned to pack food for my low FODMAP daughter but will now pack some for hubby and me also.

    14. Cedrus Libani*

      I went to the 2017 eclipse, at a farm in rural Oregon (owned by a friend’s friend’s family). Didn’t plan ahead, so we drove…and it was a long drive back, so we only waited an hour or so before hitting the road. It was still bumper to bumper for the next 2 hours or so, and rush hour conditions most of the rest of the way home. I would advise filling your gas tank before the eclipse, and bringing whatever food and water you’ll need with you. Don’t rely on small-town restaurants, gas stations, etc to have enough surge capacity to handle you and everyone else doing the same thing.

      I would agree with the advice to not waste your time photographing the eclipse, unless you’re a serious hobbyist and this is a bucket list item for you. Let other people do that. Focus on the experience; it’s brief, also it’s surreal, and genuinely more impressive than you would expect from a basic description.

  17. There's no candles over here....*

    Anyone here monetize a hobby and wants to share their experience with it?

    I have a hobby (say, candle making) that I enjoy doing. Friend have asked me to “make candles” for them in the past, for which I usually just charged cost. My time was my gift to them. Plus I usually have the supplies around anyways. But now I’m considering selling my “candles” online to see if I can make money off them. It’s something I enjoy doing and based on feedback, I’m pretty good at it (and I know the bar for free is lower than anything someone pays for).

    Has anyone else done something like this? I’m not looking to quit by day job, but maybe make a little bit of money and get to do something I enjoy more often.

    1. Sloanicota*

      I make a couple hundred bucks a year, not enough to change my life, just nice extra pocket money. For something physical like candles, I found that the shipping took too much energy/money, and if my product got damaged, that was “my” problem in that my clients were unhappy with their purchase. I had better luck going to locations where I could set up a booth for a few hours. A place that will let you put up a booth for free, while hard to find, is ideal (library/brewery in my case) – then all the the cash you make is basically profit. Also, make sure you understand any tax implications, which vary based on how you go about it.

      1. EveryDayICheckMyEmailandForWhat*

        Agree with this 100%. Shipping very quickly eats up any profit you might be making, on top of service fees from places like Etsy. Plus, having the physical stock ready to go whenever someone places an online order can be stressful and space consuming (unless you buy by order, in which case the supply cost may fluctuate). Eating the upfront cost of renting a space at a farmer’s market or craft fair paid off more for me, especially since I could simultaneously sell existing products as well as take special orders (which get a shipping up charge).

    2. Semi-retired admin*

      A good formula to use for pricing is first, determine how much money you want to make per hour, then figure out how long it takes. Your cost of goods x 3, plus your hourly rate, then add on a profit (anywhere from 5% to 20%). You may find that people who claim to want to support small businesses and independent makers change their tune when they see the cost. Please value your craft and don’t price down just to get orders!

  18. Anonymous cat*

    Mysteries vs real police question.

    You know how in mystery novels and police procedural tv shows, the police—or at least one determined detective— spend a lot of time digging for info to solve one crime? Do police really do that?

    I thought that police were probably too busy to do that and the complicated stories were usually only for fiction. There would be exceptions of course but that most crimes were solved quickly or became cold cases.

    Does anyone here know?

    1. Vio*

      I’m not an expert but I’ve been fortunate enough to meet some people who are, without being stuck on the wrong end of their investigation (which probably makes for a less friendly and far more suspicious discussion of hypotheticals).
      From what I gather it depends a lot on how much other work there is to do at the time. In a quiet, relatively low crime area there’s generally more room for really determined digging. But it’s probably also a smaller force with less resources available as well.

      From what I understand, a lot of cases do go cold and there’s often little to no reason to reopen them. If evidence wasn’t found at the time then it’s assumed that it won’t be found later. Unless somebody comes forward with new information there’s probably not going to be somebody just randomly pick the case and think “Hmm I think I’ll try to solve this one during this break in our oddly predictable pattern of crimes.”

      There are real reasons for cases to be reopened though so if you’re planning to write a mystery and want to minimise the suspension of disbelief there’s always ways. As an educated guess I’d say
      New evidence found
      Witness comes forward
      Similar crime occurs which may be connected
      New discovery suggests original investigation may have been insufficient/heavily biased

      1. Sloanicota*

        “our oddly predictable pattern of crimes.” – I always chuckle imagining TV detectives saying to each other, ‘do you think it’s a bit weird that all the action in our cases combined usually makes up one tight hour, except suddenly at the end of every fall there’s a big case that really takes up our energy??’

      2. Zelda*

        “Witness comes forward”

        According to my Extremely Scientific Survey of Cold Case Files, a major cause of cold cases getting solved is romantic breakups. Someone who was involved at some level tells their SO and swears the SO to secrecy. Years later, they break up, and the SO wants to do the right thing and no longer feels too threatened to talk, or is mad and wants to make trouble for their ex, and goes to police.

    2. blue rose*

      *Uninformed assumption incoming*

      I always made the assumption of time passing. Like on Law & Order for example, even though each episode airs over an hour and minus commercials is probably something like 43 minutes, I often assumed time skips of weeks at least between scenes unless specified onscreen. But like I said, this is my own uninformed assumption. I didn’t consciously make it, but realized when I stopped to think about your question.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        On Criminal Minds, the time span of the episode is almost always explicitly defined and like, a week or less to catch this week’s Ted Bundy. I like the show but that part always struck me as patently unrealistic.

        1. Sloanicota*

          I guess I could imagine some of the crime solving might happen pretty quickly – I mean, the scene is going cold darn fast and witnesses need to be interviewed right away – but some of the more realistic shows point out how long it takes to get DNA results, autopsy information (especially the chemical parts, like “was there poison in this guys blood?”) and chemical analysis back. It’s like, weeks for that stuff sometimes, so the detectives have to go ahead with their theories before knowing that information and find out later if the data backs it up. Makes sense to me especially in crowded/underfunded public morgues. And then of course the *legal* parts take literally forever but some shows cut off before that part kicks in

        2. Elizabeth West*

          Sometimes it is a very short interval. We worked a local murder case in OldCity in my Police Patrol class to practice report writing (it happened at a motel not too far from my house, one I drove past every day, and I didn’t have a clue 0_0). It was obvious from the initial canvass who did it. The dumbass perp was still in the general area and they caught him right away.

          If it’s not obvious, it can go cold pretty quickly.

    3. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      There was a local case in the city where I live three or four decades ago, a really grim child murder. One of the detectives spent massive amounts of his own time on the case for many years.

    4. Peregrine*

      From what I heard, they’re usually juggling multiple cases at once – so the stereotypical mystery show/book threat of “I will take you off the case” would be met with more of a “great thanks” instead of being considered a threat from a results-obsessed superior in reality.

      (Hearsay, of course)

    5. Irish Teacher.*

      I’m guessing it also depends on the type of crime and the seriousness of it. Mystery stories usually focus on murders and an unusual type of murder at that, one where the victim is not “known to the police” and where it isn’t pretty obvious who did it. The sort of case that, at least in Ireland, would dominate our national news for days, if not weeks.

      Those are the kind of cases where the media follows every twist and turn and unlike in mystery stories, they are pretty rare. My whole country has an average of 40 or 50 murders a year and the vast majority of those are gangland typed stuff, where the police at least have a general idea of what gang killed them even if they don’t know the exact person who did the deed.

      Other murders are usually fairly obvious like somebody killed their partner in a row. Murders that aren’t part of gang feuds and aren’t done by somebody in a row who often admits it pretty quickly are pretty uncommon and I could see them getting more manpower than the average crime and certainly taking precedent over the drug dealing and minor thefts that probably make up a lot of police work.

      I don’t know if they get the attention they do in books, but these are the crimes that have documentaries made about them (especially since the victims in books are often well-off people) where the detectives get interviewed and which have the whole country following the court case, so I’d imaging they’d want every t crossed and I dotted. We still talk about the Rachel O’Reilly murder that took place in 2004 and there was recently a documentary about it on TV and that was one of the real cases that came closest to resembling the type of murder you see in books or on TV.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I suspect there’s a grain of truth here (although in the US of course there are many more murders) – it’s probably an 80/20 type thing. 80% of the murders seem relatively either pretty obvious, even if they can’t prove it completely to the satisfaction of the court. Police probably spend most of their time on the other 20%.

          1. Goldfeesh*

            And with seeing the relatively large number of Innocence Project cases, some of the “solved” cases are solved by saying “Huh, conveniently this person did it according to the prison snitch, case closed!”

            1. Maggie*

              Very true! And even if 50% have a suspect arrested it doesn’t mean they are even charged with the crime yet, much less found guilty. Violent crime clearance rates are actually pretty low which is scary. And it’s scary as you said that some people aren’t even guilty. “The confession tapes” is a show that really goes to show how people get railroaded even when they KNOW someone else did it. Highly recommend. Disturbing a bit though!

      2. Phryne*

        Yes, I’ve also seen this statistic. Most crimes, it is pretty well known who (likely) did it, either gang/crime related or in the family sphere. And the case is about getting enough forensic evidence and or getting enough people to talk about it both of which take time. But if it is a real mystery, there is a very low probability the case ever gets solved unless someone comes forward.

        1. Phryne*

          I saw a German docu ‘Dig Deeper’ about the disappearance of Birgit Meier in Northern Germany, which I can recommend. The case eventually got solved because her retired big city police officer kept looking, because the local police ignored pretty much every lead for decades.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          One FBI stat that has always haunted me was quoted by Bill Bryson back in his travel books days: that there’s a constant, estimated number of serial killers out and active at any one time, nationwide. Many never get caught and age out of being able to commit those crimes, or go to prison for something else. But most of their victims are never found, or wrongly attributed to someone who’s already been caught.

        3. londonedit*

          I don’t know about anywhere else but here the police only give very basic details when there’s a suspected murder, so as not to compromise the investigation before an arrest has been made. You’ll hear phrases like ‘police are looking for a 38-year-old man believed to have been known to the victim’ and then you know that they know exactly who did it, they just need to make a formal arrest. With gang-related killings arrests are either made immediately or may not be made at all if members of the gang/people in the local area refuse to give information. It’s rare that there’s a murder where the culprit is completely unknown – in those cases police will appeal to the public and give as much of a description as they can, and so on.

    6. londonedit*

      There’s a BBC series called Forensics: The Real CSI, which as the title suggests follows UK police forces and forensics experts as they try to solve crimes (sometimes murders but also other types of crime, whatever forensics would get involved with really). The teams absolutely do put a lot of effort into trying to gather evidence and bring the criminals to justice – it’s a really interesting programme and definitely sheds a light on how things work behind the scenes. When the criminals are eventually brought to court and found guilty, the forensics team usually gets a call from the lead detective to let them know the sentences received – which drives home the fact that they really do care and want to see justice being done.

    7. TX_TRUCKER*

      I asked a nephew who works in law enforcement this question. He says that some jurisdictions have a dedicated “cold case” unit where detectives dig deep to solve an old crime, and that is all they work on. But the TV idea of a detective working both “active” and “cold” cases at the same time is fiction. A witness coming forward on their own (not physical evidence) usually will turn a cold case to active.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I do think the most common scenario, rather than the tireless detective still toiling away 20 years later, is that someone who knew about the crime comes forward later for reasons of their own. Maybe they’re trying to get a plea deal or a reduced sentence, maybe their conscience gets to them or something about their circumstances change. A lot of crimes involve conspiracies or almost seem to be open secrets honestly, if what I see in the true crime genres is in any way more accurate than fictional TV/novel procedurals (of which I consume a lot).

    8. Ochre*

      Anecdata here but I was a witness to a murder 8 years ago. (It’s complicated; I didn’t realize it was a murder until someone turned up dead elsewhere in the neighborhood.) I gave my statement and the police took statements and some trace evidence from others and then…I heard nothing for 7 years. Then the DA’s office called: they had a date for a grand jury trial. Did that, then they said the trial was successful (I only had to give my statement; I wasn’t there for the whole thing). Then a trial was scheduled. At this point the original officer I’d talked to had retired, the first DA had become a judge and a new DA was taking the case. A week before the trial date, the defendant took a plea deal…for 25 years. I didn’t feel I could ask the DA for details (maybe I could have?) but it was implied that they had witnesses (who most likely were incarcerated) who were finally willing to testify. Whatever they said must have been pretty damning for him to plead for 25 years! This was a gang/drug-related retaliation murder, as far as I could gather.

    9. Elle*

      I can’t remember if it was the people who made the TV show ER or Law and Order but I read an interview where they talked about how the real life stuff is slower and more boring then we think. I know my friends in law enforcement complain about all the paperwork, which would not make for good tv.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Most things are more mundane than TV would have you think. Even reality shows about unusual jobs are heavily scripted and edited.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        The makers of Veronica Mars knew that their real life detective consultant could get most of this stuff by typing at a computer, but there’s a limit to how dramatically or visually interesting you can make that.

    10. Morning Reading*

      I don’t really know, but I think the “amateur detective solves crimes” genre is in part based on the idea that police don’t do much with the mysterious crimes. The obvious ones, which most murders are, yes they do arrest and prosecute. Mostly ending up with plea bargains.
      I don’t know if police are unable or unwilling but many/ most crimes, in reality, are never solved.
      In the case of sexual assaults, I don’t think they usually even try. Hence the vaults of DNA evidence sitting untested in various labs. Maybe they don’t have the resources but my impression is that it’s not a priority. For robberies and thefts, they want you to fill out a police report for insurance purposes, but they usually tell you not to expect anything. Even if they find the perpetrator, they stuff is long gone. And mostly they never find the perpetrator; with small property crimes, again, they do very little.

    11. Isabel Archer*

      I just finished a true-crime podcast called “Bear Brook,” which would answer your question. Realistically, law enforcement doesn’t have enough time or people to do all the tip-following and deep research that solving mysteries requires. This podcast showed how many years and how many law enforcement folks plus regular citizens it really took to solve these murders.

    12. Anonymous cat*

      Thank you everyone! Very interesting! (And I always kind of wondered if the police had overwhelming amounts of paperwork!)

  19. Morning Reading*

    A book and old-fashioned courtesy title question:
    I’m reading (listening to) The Paris Mystery by Kirsty Manning, which I think was recommended by someone here. The book is set in 1939. In it, the title character uses the “Mrs” equivalent (madame iirc), as she is married but not yet divorced, but she didn’t take her husband’s last name upon marriage so she uses Madame Her-Original-Lastname. This makes no sense to me. In my experience, if someone doesn’t change her name upon marriage, she also doesn’t go by “Mrs,” and if she does use Mrs, she is “Mrs Hislastname,” not “Mrs her maiden name.” The latter sounds like she would be married to her own father. (Or maybe a cousin, as with the Roosevelts.) Nowadays I would expect a married woman with her original name to be Ms. her last name, and if they didn’t have the Ms option in 1939, wouldn’t she have used Miss Herlastname?
    Then, once this character is divorced, she goes back to using Mademoiselle, the equivalent of Miss (although I have heard this title is no longer used much in France.) But here in the US, a divorced woman would traditionally (in early 20th century) still use Mrs., but with her own first name instead of her husband’s. So Mrs. Mary Jones instead of Mrs. John Jones. (Whereas a widow would still use Mrs. John Jones.) Once you were a Mrs, you were always a Mrs, no going back.
    So what gives? Is this an eccentricity of the author, or was it done differently in France then? Or maybe Australia since the character is Australian?
    Another question: throughout the book, another character is described as having green hair. Could I be misunderstanding “greying” hair with the narrator’s accent? Did anyone have green hair in 1939 Paris?
    P.S. I am indeed fortunate to have no other pressing problems currently, to be so curiously peeved about this non-problem.

    1. RagingADHD*

      Since this is apparently not a fantasy setting, do the other characters react at all to her hair? Green hair would have been possible, but unusual enough to be quite remarkable. Is she some kind of performer, a wealthy eccentric, a high-society fashionista, or otherwise unfettered by social conventions?

      If not, I think it’s probably “greying.”

      1. Morning Reading*

        Not as far as I can tell, but it is described more than once. She’s an aristocratic lady, married to Lord Somebody, but with an acting background and a reputation for heroism as a wartime nurse, in the last big one. Known for her innovative entertainments; the first murder happens at one of her soirées. So maybe it’s green? (I need to find a text copy of the book to check.)

        1. RagingADHD*

          I doubt it. To have nobody overtly react to her unusual appearance in any way is very unrealistic.

    2. RLC*

      Ooh, great question!
      I have a question-provoking example in my own family tree: Great grandmother was married and subsequently divorced prior to US Census of 1900, she is listed as “Mrs Firstname Her maiden name” in the 1900 records. (Her child is listed as “Childname Her maiden name”)
      Ten years later a newspaper article from 1910 lists her as “Mrs Firstname Ex-husband name”
      The 1910 mention fits the traditional pattern you noted – but 1900 census surely does not!

    3. WS*

      There were a very small number of women at the time who kept their maiden names professionally but used Mrs, at least here in Australia. My great-grandmother was a pianist and singer and used Mrs Mary Smith (her maiden name) professionally, but was Mrs John Jones socially. Some female doctors and professors and at least one pharmacist (who apprenticed with her father) also did this. That said, it was *extremely* unusual and my grandmother told me she was embarrassed as a kid because she worried people might assume her parents weren’t married.

      1. RLC*

        Your story gives me a bit of insight into my great-grandmother’s usage of “Mrs Maidenname” – she was a tailor and dressmaker with both male and female clients. “Mrs” might convey social propriety for a businesswoman working with male clients in the Victorian era, and her professional career began prior to marriage so she was known by her maiden name. Her use of ex-husband’s last name only appears after she moves from New York City to Los Angeles.

        1. Margery Daw*

          And the cook in Victorian households was always “Mrs.Somebody” to designate status as head of cooking, often with helpers under her, regardless of cook’s marital status.

    4. Weegie*

      Mrs is short for ‘Mistress’, and in former times meant ‘mistress of the household’ – which would usually be a married woman but not always. My grandfather told me that when he was growing up (1910s/20s) all women over the age of 21 were called ‘Mistress Lastname’, whether married or single. That might have been particular to where I live and I’m not sure when that custom changed; it’s quite common to see women of that time and earlier referred to in official documents as ‘Mary Marriedname or Maidenname’. Maiden surnames are still used for legal purposes here.

      I also had a university lecturer who referred to herself as ‘Mrs Maidenname’, as an indicator that she was married but keeping her own surname (she didn’t have a doctorate, which would have dodged the issue!). It was the early 80s, the use of ‘Ms’ wasn’t that common, and I suppose this was her workaround.

      1. Sloanicota*

        It’s crazy that Ms went from not really used just within my lifespan to becoming so common as to be the primary form of female address at least in my workplace! I wonder how common this is. I’m in a liberal coastal city and work in a liberal office.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I chose to go by Ms. at around age 18, when having a title of some kind began to be a given, such as mail addressed to me (as opposed to a kid, who just goes by firstname/lastname in most of US society late 20th century.) It was still a thing you had to pick and insist on. I still get a few pieces of mail from older relatives that write to me as Mrs. Husband’s Lastname, which I find irritating but it’s what they were taught and used to.

          Nowadays, of course, Ms. is a total non-starter as A Feminist Issue for the most part. But it definitely evolved to that point.

    5. Falling Diphthong*

      My impression with the “Mrs Mary Jones” for divorcées is that–like the Medieval rules about all the luxury products only nobility were allowed to wear–it was mostly evident in all the people violating the Strict Rules.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      This reminds me of watching Serena Williams play after she married Alexis Ohanian. She professionally obviously is very much Serena Williams. But umps calling matches did switch to calling her “Mrs. Williams” not “Miss Williams” , not “Ms. Williams”, and not “Mrs. Ohanian”.
      My understanding (although I don’t know if this is true of 1939 France) is the “Mrs” can be used simply to denote “this person is married” and the surname is just their surname, and it need not be the combination of the two indicating the name of the person they’re married to.

      So basically, that part of the story wouldn’t make the blink, even though I’m not familiar with the norms of the time period or locale.

      1. Morning Reading*

        Interesting, I had not noticed that. Wondering why she was Miss or Mrs or anything but Williams at all? Isn’t the sports convention to use last names? I’ve never heard of Mr. Aaron or Mr. Palmer. Is it a tennis thing to use titles? Or is it just for the women? Or just for Ms. Williams, to distinguish her from her sister of the same last name? Curiouser and curiouser.

        1. Fulana del tal*

          Wimbledon I believe is the only tournament that uses Miss or Mrs titles and Mr for men. The announcer and display use the Miss/Mrs/Mr(Name) but other tournaments just use (Name)

    7. Jay (no, the other one)*

      I knew someone who did this and I can’t for the life of me remember who it was. It also bothered me for the same reasons you mention, and as someone said below I suspect it was a pre-Ms workaround for someone who wanted to signal she was married and keep her name.

      In a related question I’ve been meaning to look up when Ms originated. I’ve been reading a mystery series by Stephen Spotswood that’s set in the 1940s. One of the main characters uses Ms which seems anachronistic to me.

      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        OK, I just looked it up. According to Wikipedia, Ms was an alternative abbreviation for Mistress in the 17th and 18th centuries. “Mistress” in those days was the equivalent to “Mister” and did not denote marital status. That changed in the 19th century. The article quotes a newspaper article from 1901 suggested the revival of Ms when the speaker or writer didn’t know the woman’s marital status. So it was a thing, although not widely used until the 1970s.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          It might be worth tracking down the origins of Ms. Magazine, which did a lot to popularize the use of Ms. in America!

          1. Imtheone*

            I had the first copy of Ms. Magazine, which was published inside another magazine (The New Yorker?). It was 1973.

            The title Ms. took quite a while to become somewhat common.

    8. Chicago Anon*

      I believe that in France if a woman is, say, over 30 (that is, old enough that it’s likely she’s married), then she is Madame regardless of marital status. The exact age will vary with time period and region.

      1. MissCoco*

        This is also my recollection from high school French, it’s much more age-based than Miss/Ms/Mrs in English.

    9. Retired Accountant*

      When Geraldine Ferraro ran for Vice President on the Mondale ticket, it was a thing in some circles that she went by Mrs. Ferraro. She was married and did not change her name, and it was frequently asserted that she could be “Ms. Ferraro” or Mrs. (husband last name) but not Mrs. Ferraro. The world continued apace.

    10. Jackalope*

      French has never to my knowledge had an equivalent of Ms., just Madame or Mademoiselle for women. I don’t know how many of the French women that I met who were married had taken their husband’s last name, but Madame was used for all of them. (And as you note, Mademoiselle is used much less these days, although I would be surprised if that were the case in the time period you’re referring to.)

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      No matter what a woman wants to be called, it’s likely many strangers and irritating family members will default to “Mrs. HusbandsLastName.”

      Source: Personal experience. I have never introduced myself as Mrs, have always checked&signed Ms, and have specifically joked “If you say Mrs I look for my mother-in-law”—and it’s rare that people say Ms.

    12. IGoAnonAnonAnon*

      Review in The Washington Post calls out Lady Ashworth’s green hair, so it’s definitely green not greying. Seems like she’s just famous and wealthy enough to get away with it!

    13. Washi*

      I went and looked up some newspaper articles about LM Montgomery, who was married but did not change her name. One article (post marriage) called her Miss Montgomery but all the others say LM Montgomery (Mrs. Ewan Macdonald) on the first mention, then just LM Montgomery thereafter. I recall reading in a biography that socially she did use Mrs Macdonald. I did not see “Mrs Montgomery” as an option anywhere.

    14. shteripecas*

      If it’s set in France “madame” would be the polite title to apply to any woman, regardless of marriage status. “mademoiselle” is really for girls.

    15. EllenD*

      Different countries have different approaches to married women, whereby they weren’t expected adopt their husband’s family name. In Scotland, a woman might be known as Betsy Cameron wife of John McDonald and in France married women in legal documents were expected to sign their maiden name, however long they were married. In Spain, it is more complicated with everybody have two surnames based on those of their parents and women don’t adopt their husband’s surnames but retain those of their parents. Their children then have two surnames one from the father and one from the mother.

    16. Morning Reading*

      Thanks for the fascinating discussion! The gist seems to be that I am (sort of) correct in my understanding of the Anglo/English/New England/Canadian style, but that individuals could and did use different styles according to their preferences, even 85 years ago. Also that Madame is not a Mrs equivalent and these practices vary widely in other languages and cultures. And also that Mrs has been used in other ways than connotating marital status, in some places and eras.
      My own experience is that the only times anyone has addressed me as Mrs has been in the context of being a mother. First time was the day my child was born; I suspect they default to Mrs for all new mothers. It is probably easier, or friendlier, if you know a child’s full name, to default to “Mrs. child’slastname,” than to use “child’s first name’s mom,” when addressing a woman you only know through her child.
      For others,if someone uses Mrs, I assume she is a teacher, or old-fashioned. I haven’t encountered it much otherwise.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        It was also traditional in England, with upper class families, to refer to their housekeeper and/or cook as Mrs. Lastname, regardless of their marital status.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        My name from my children’s friends followed:
        Emily Mommy
        Emily’s Mom
        Mrs. Emily’s Last Name

    17. Phryne*

      Women’s names being automatically and legally changed to their husbands’ is an Anglosphere custom. Pretty much nowhere else is this the norm. In most countries, women either keep their own names or hyphenate their birth and married names. In my country, it is not strange for married women to take their husbands name for daily use, or hyphenate marriedname-birthname but many do not and in all official documentation and ID women will always will keep their birth name, possibly with the addition of a spouses name in a ‘married to’ line
      I am not sure about titles in France, but I think it is safe to assume it is not necessarily the same as in the US.

      1. allathian*

        I’m in Finland, and the requirement for a woman to take her husband’s name was a brief thing, barely 60 years, 1926-1987. But I suspect that the tradition of a married woman being known socially as Mrs. Husband’s Full Name is purely Anglophone. It’s certainly never been a thing here.

        1. allathian*

          Husband’s last name is a thing here, but a woman’s never known by her husband’s first name. It’s also increasingly common for husbands to take their wife’s name.

    18. Esprit de l'escalier*

      Several of you said “mademoiselle” isn’t used much in France these days. How do they address young women if not as “Mlle Francois”?

        1. allathian*

          Yeah. When I was an exchange student in France in my early 20s, I seem to remember the lecturers addressing their female students as Mademoiselle, but in stores etc. I was generally Madame unless the cashier was old enough to be my grandparent. This was in the mid-90s.

    19. ranunculus*

      Oscar Wilde famously described Aubrey Beardsley as having “a face like a silver hatchet and grass green hair”. It’s impossible to tell from photographs, since they’re all in black and white, but it appears to be a kind of ash blond, which can definitely appear to have a greenish cast in certain light.

  20. Free Meerkats*

    What music from when you were young that you completely missed have you discovered later in life?

    I tend to listen to youtube music when I’m reading on the computer and the algorithm recommended an album compilation from 1973-75 by a group called Budgie. I’d never heard of them, so hit play. These guys rock! They were a Welsh band, active late 60s to late 80s (my prime radio listening years), then again for a couple of year in the mid 90s, and again in the early 1999-2010.

    2. mreasy*

      I was pointed to Budgie by a (Welsh) friend ages ago, they are great!! More classically metal, but if you don’t know Blind Guardian, they hit a similar spot for me.

      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        I didn’t miss them completely, but I always thought so many bands like this were one hit wonders. You’d go to the music store and think, am I going to take the risk and buy the whole album based on one song I heard on the radio? I made so many mistakes gambling doing that.

        Now I realize, they are not a one hit wonder? Why did I think that.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      The Rolling Stones’ She’s a Rainbow, via Ted Lasso. I’m sure I must have heard this on the radio In My Youth, but it never registered.

    5. Generic Name*

      I didn’t miss it when I was young (I just didn’t necessarily appreciate it), but I’ve recently started listening to the old school (80s and 90s) hip hop radio station.

    6. Dark Macadamia*

      I came to Death Cab For Cutie a little late. Plans and Transatlanticism were both released when I was in high school but I didn’t listen to them until college. Just recently I’ve started listening to some of their earlier stuff!

    7. Girasol*

      I was looking for old favorite music and remembered a one-hit wonder from ages back. That led me down a trail of one hit wonders from my teen years – whole youtube collections of them – and they were all songs I had loved.

    9. Busy Middle Manager*

      Not miss completely, but so many songs sort of blended into the background when they were new and all sort of sounded the same as other songs at the same, so didn’t hit the endorphin button in your brain. Then you hear them now and they go poof, and light up your brain, and sound so new and original. Recent cases for me include Concrete Blondes – Joey (at the time it sounded like too many other bands and it’s like my brain didn’t register it) or Billy Joels Matter of Trust.

      As an 80s kids, so much music from the 70s sounded the same to me, and because I couldn’t google the songs and couldn’t differentiate the voices, I was just lost. Now I often have 70s rock on in the background and am starting to be able to tell the bands apart:-). There was a Family Guy episode where Stewie discovered Anne Murray and it was a total trip for him. I had that experience with Ozzy Osbourne and ELO in the past few years. Like it was always background noise, then it clicked in my head, and now I have no idea how bands like that all sounded the same to me!

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Songs that were used in a really evocative way in a TV show will take on a much enhanced meaning for me.
        Chuck: Take on Me
        Wednesday: Goo Goo Muck
        Lupin: Atomic
        Umbrella Academy: Footloose and Bad Guy
        Harley Quinn: Sweet but Psycho and Confident

    10. Clara Bowe*

      Late 80’s/early 90’s house music! There was so much I missed as a small white child in the Midwest with zero access to dance clubs. I love Kellee!

    12. Emily Byrd Starr*

      In the past 5 years or so, I’ve been really into electronica/trip-hop from the 1990’s, which was a genre I rarely listened to back then. I especially like Ivy, Jem, Morcheeba, and Portishead.

    13. allathian*

      Finnish rock band Dingo. They had a string of hits in the mid-80s when my family lived in the UK and I was just discovering my own musical tastes rather than simply listening to whatever my parents listened to. When we returned, much of the Dingomania had passed. I started listening to their music during the pandemic.

  21. Helvetica*

    What’s your e-mailing pet peeve that is absolutely nonconsequential in the bigger picture? I’m not talking about people who use reply all for everything but truly things that have no actual practical effect on you.
    For me, it is people who sign off e-mails with their initial. I don’t know why I find it annoying but if your name is Mary and you sign off “M”, I will roll my eyes. It would never rise to the level of me telling the person because it actually doesn’t matter, so hence it is a pet peeve. So, what’s yours?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I get irrationally annoyed by email signatures – “expired” info (“scheduled out of office: 1/2-7” still being there in February, I don’t mind a day or two while you catch up but update that nonsense), names in fancy hard-to-read fonts (that are off-brand to boot), and most quotes.

    2. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      “Nice to e-meet you”

      I stopped signing off work emails with “Best,” as I learned that it’s a huge pet peeve of other people, never bothered me!

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          Not crazy about “Best” or “Cheers” (FTR, I live and work in the US).

          Hard agree on the outdated schedule info.

    3. BookMom*

      Blank subject lines. Yes, Lundberg, I’d love to scroll through 15 different emails to find the one about the February TPS reports.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        At least in my Outlook, I have the option to modify the subject line on a received email – open the email in its own window, click on the subject line and make edits, and then save. It doesn’t modify anybody else’s copy, of course, but it does help if the information I want to save for later has a blank or not-very-helpful subject line. (I had a vendor who sent me three weeks of daily emails by forwarding and modifying the previous day’s email, but she never updated the subject line, so they all had the same date on them, so I used this trick to edit the dates for my own records.)

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        Or meaningless subject lines. Bonus irritation points if it’s a trail and the topic has significantly changed from the initial email. (This is the kind that I tend to get added to about 15 messages in, with a question about my opinion but no summary of the discussion. My opinion is that y’all need to learn how email communication works. How’s that?)

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Conversely, people who change the subject line without changing the subject matter… and then cant find their own emails.

      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        I HATE THIS.

        Sorry. I really do hate this. I just started a new part-time job (still retired three days of the week!) and one of my coworkers makes chart entries in all caps. Much harder to read and also makes me feel like she’s yelling at me. She’s a sweet woman. I’ve known her for years. She doesn’t yell, at least not when she’s not typing.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          She may read all caps better–I’ve noticed that lower case letters are harder and harder to decipher as I age into decrepitude.

    5. ccsquared*

      That we haven’t yet come up with good sign-offs that sound right for people we work with frequently. “Regards” or “Kind regards” is great for more formal or less frequent contacts, but feels too distant to use with someone I’m probably going to see in the hallway later that day. “Thanks” doesn’t really feel right when you’re not making a request (and even if you are, isn’t it weird to thank someone before they’ve done it?) but I end up defaulting to this a lot because it’s sufficiently breezy at least. I have former colleagues who use “cheers” which no longer sets my teeth on edge, but I can’t see myself picking it up.

      I’m sending more and more emails without any sign-off but my name, but I’m sure that peeves at least a few people.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I work with someone who just wishes people a great day. (It works for her, because she is the kind of person who does sincerely want you to have a great day.)

        1. skylight*

          I have a friend you signed Happy [day of the week]. Also would greet people in person the same way too. After a couple
          of years, I started using it too. I hoe it’s not anyone’s pet peeve.

      2. Jill Swinburne*

        UK/NZ/probably Australian English has this sorted – you sign off with ‘cheers’. As well as a toast, it’s a friendly informal way to say ‘thank you’.

    6. Nessness*

      The initials annoy me too! I had one coworker who signed his emails with his 3-letter initials when his first name also had 3 letters (e.g. JRT instead of Jim). You’re not even saving time! I don’t know why this annoyed me so much but it did.

    7. Knighthope*

      “Sent from my iPhone/Android” whatever. Annoying, space-wasting advertising. Change your signature to blank, people!

    8. Venetia Hall*

      I find myself doing a hard eyeroll when people with professional email accounts begin a message with “Hi this is Firstname Lastname …”. Yes, I know, because your name was clearly displayed in my inbox. How have these folks never noticed how business email works?

    9. Sitting Pretty*

      Putting a whole request in the subject line then nothing in the body. It’s so weird. I have a supervisor who does this. “Subj: We need to figure out who’s overseeing the project launch presentation by Weds” then I open the email and … nothing? My dude, Teams and texting and Slack all exist for a reason, can you just DM me please?

      1. Maestra*

        I often do that when I email my students because they often won’t read emails, but will at least read the subject when they get the push notification. Sometimes I restate the subject line in the body of the email with complete sentences or add a little more context/detail, but the bulk of what I need them to absorb is in the subject.

    10. Community resources?*

      Ha. I had a boss who would only read the text first visible on her screen when she opened her email. If the sentence continued at the end of the line, she went looking for the next email with the rest of the message. So we agreed that she’d read til my sign off at the end. Within a few months she was up to speed, but asked me to continue signing off so she’d know that was all. I still sign off with my first initial, all these years later.

    11. vombatus ursinus*

      Sorry, I’m one of those who sometimes signs off with just an initial, haha. On the off chance that hearing the thinking behind it might make it feel less annoying, it’s usually in the situation where I’m writing the second or third email in a chain with someone I know, so … I don’t need to remind them what my name is, but it feels a bit rude/abrupt to just end the email with no sign-off?

      I guess I’m generally fairly chilled about writing style when it comes to emails, but I don’t love when people reply to an existing email thread to broach a new topic (especially if they don’t bother to also change the subject line).

      1. ccsquared*

        Honestly, I would love it if we’d adopt the convention of dropping salutations and signoff after the initial email and reply. At that point, you have both agreed to engage in the matter at hand, so doing so directly without the formalities seems fine, particularly if this about a single topic, like arranging a surprise birthday for a friend versus just general life catch-up. We’re not posting letters to each other that need six weeks to cross the ocean on a steamer, whereby we wish to cheer the countence of our esteemed confindants with our heartfelt salutations and manifold regards in our correspondences.

      2. Forrest Rhodes*

        If I’ve added a P.S. after my signature, I’ll end with a lower-case first initial on the line after the P.S. to indicate it’s a finished thought and no text is missing.

        Also, I hate hearing all the hate for “Best”; I’ve been using “Best [to you, to the team, whatever is appropriate]” for a long time. Didn’t realize I was insulting people rather than giving a friendly sign-off!

        1. office hobbit*

          I don’t think that’s insulting? And I read “Best to ___” as different from “Best,” tho I still think either is fine.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      For what it’s worth, a nonzero % of us use our initials as a nickname in the real world.

      Are you bristling at what Mary/Em intended as a gesture of friendship?

      1. Helvetica*

        Mm, people who I’ve noticed doing this definitely don’t use the initial as a nickname nor are we friendly to that extent. But I’ll keep in mind!

    13. allathian*

      Abbreviated sign offs annoy me, like Rgds for Regards. Skip it completely if you can’t be bothered to write it out. It honestly feels like a big fuck you to me.

    14. AGD*

      Copying and pasting into my Outlook mailbox changes the vertical line spacing in a way that I can’t do anything about. Nothing I’ve tried has solved this, and “just don’t copy and paste” isn’t realistic given the sort of work I do. If I need to copy anything in, then half of it has regular 1.0 line spacing and the other half has 1.5 and the whole thing ends up looking awful for the inconsistency and I hate it.

      1. AGD*

        Copying and pasting the entire email at the end, maddeningly, sometimes evens it out and sometimes doesn’t.

      2. office hobbit*

        Do the different Outlook paste options help? There should be a “keep text only” option that should strip out any formatting, or some options like “merge formatting” or “match destination formatting” that might help.

      3. Cedrus Libani*

        I have that problem too – depending on what application I’m copying from, it will come with white space formatting that doesn’t work in Outlook. Pasting as plain text doesn’t always solve it, because these formatting characters are part of the text.

        What I do is paste into a plain-text editor first, which will politely strip off any formatting it doesn’t want to deal with, leaving clean text that I can copy-paste into Outlook. (I use Sublime Text, but I think Notepad would work OK too.)

        This also helps with merging contributions from my Israeli colleagues…there’s Hebrew sprinkled in there, which is a right-to-left language, and it’s like glitter…the formatting gets everywhere, even if I’m copy-pasting only the English bits.

    15. Might Be Spam*

      Sometimes couples share an email account, but don’t sign their name or even initials. So even if I recognize the email address, I still don’t know who it is from.

      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        They still do that, even in 2024? My whole family shared an email account when I was in high school, but that was in 1995.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Everyone I know who still does this is either over 70, or is the parent of an elementary-school aged or younger child, and when it’s the parent scenario, they have a single shared account for kid-related stuff, but their own separate accounts for the rest of their lives.

    16. goddessoftransitory*

      Wall of text, for sure. You aren’t being charged by the centimeter or anything, it’s okay to break up into paragraphs!

    17. Nightengale*

      I sign e-mails at work with my initials for a very specific reason: I am a physician and wish non-physician co-workers would call me by my first name but they won’t. They call me Dr Lastname while everyone is supposed to call them by their firstnames. So in this culture, I feel strange signing off e-mails with my firstname but also I really don’t want to write Dr Lastname. Miss Manners says one never applies an honorific to oneself, “Miss Manner” being the exception. So for informal e-mails to close coworkers I often use my initials. I do use 2 initials, not just one.

  22. BellaStella*

    Google Drive clean up: I just left a few google groups, and cleaned up my storage and deleted a lot of stuff. Purging, even digital stuff, fells good. Anyone else need to clean up their google drive or online storage?

    3. goddessoftransitory*

      I have GOT to sort my collection of memes and gifs, again. I have so much stuff still just in Download!

    4. BikeWalkBarb*

      oh boy do I! I lost my cell phone and have to go through figuring out what’s in Verizon cloud, what’s on Google drive, and all of this in a context where on my laptop I have folders named “everything from my phone to sort October 2013” and other similar folder names from past phone mishaps. Clearly not something I prioritize.

      I also have a Dropbox account I pay for every October and every October I intend to start the cleanup so I won’t pay the following year for storage of old photos from a job I haven’t been in for 7+ years. Problem is the folders also have personal images and I do want to keep those and it will mean a lot of sorting. See above for my interest in this sort of task.

  23. rr*

    I’m trying to learn to make tuna salad instead of buying it at the deli. But my first attempt was very watery. I feel like it was the celery and carrots, but I also think at least the celery is important. Any suggestions? Recipes? Oh, and I use Miracle Whip, and really don’t want to use real mayo if this isn’t the issue, though I’m open to alternatives like avocados.

    1. My Brain is Exploding*

      Did you drain the tuna? Tuna canned in water needs more…forceful…draining than tuna in oil (in my experience). I’ve always used pickles in my tuna salad and maybe celery or onions depending on who else will be eating it.

    2. Big sigh*

      First thought is you need to squeeze more water out of the tune fish. I use packed in water and try to get it as dry as possible. And I also use carrots and celery.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Yes! I would empty the can into a sieve and use a fork to break up clumps and press down on the tuna.

    3. WellRed*

      Celery onions mayo, a little Dijon and a pinch of celery salt here. And yeah use the lid of the tuna an after you open it to squeeze all the liquid out.

    4. Dog Child*

      I think my idea of a tuna salad is very different to yours… do you have a link to what it’s ‘supposed’ to be?

    5. ShroomLog*

      Use tuna parked in oil, not water. Squeeze the oil out. Dice red onions, celery, pickles. Season with salt, pepper, basil. Mix. Add Dijon mustard (tiny amount) and mayo/miracle whip. Mix. Serve over lettuce and sliced cucumber for a salad. Or crackers and chips.

    7. The OG Sleepless*

      I use water packed tuna and REALLY squeeze the water out, as much as possible with the lid and then squashing it with a paper towel. It will be pretty soggy otherwise. After that, I just add mayo and pickle relish. I like the idea of using avocados or whatever, but I haven’t liked the results.

      1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        That’s my basic tuna salad. I’ll add chopped celery or water chestnuts for crunch sometimes, and finely chopped parsley, or fresh dill, is nice. I find that adding too many things makes me like it less.

      2. WestsideStory*

        THAT recipe is the exact one used in school cafeterias throughout most of the eastern seaboard. To replicate it exactly, top with shredded lettuce and put it in a hot dog bun.

    8. allx*

      i add diced jalapenos to tuna salad (along with celery and onion and MW/mayo). prefer pickled jalepenos but fresh is good too.

    9. MissB*

      my tuna salad recipe uses mayo, but I don’t think using miracle whip should change that substantially.

      As others have noted, drain the heck out of the tuna. I add chopped up pickled jalapeños or spicy pickles, some dill weed, some salt and pepper and the mayo.

    11. Jay*

      If you can get it, try using a dark meat tuna. I think Goya has one, and, if you can get Portuguese canned tuna, get that.
      Always get it packed in oil.
      Personally, I prefer Miracle Whip instead of Mayo with diced sweet gherkins and black olives plus either salt and pepper or Old Bay seasoning.
      Another way to get a better consistency is to toast your bread. This gives you drier bread that doesn’t get anywhere near as soggy.

    12. Zelda*

      The Man uses the spice mix from his family’s homemade salad dressing (they used to use the salad dressing itself in the tuna, but making the spice mix dry is useful both for making dressing quickly and for flavoring tuna (and other things) without making it watery):

      4 tsp each sugar, mustard powder, salt
      3 tablespoons paprika
      2 tsp each celery salt, curry powder, cayenne pepper, ground clove, garlic powder, onion powder, oregano

      Mix well and store tightly sealed (an old paprika bottle is great for this). Use a teaspoon or so per can of tuna.

    13. Cicely*

      I use tuna in packets, which doesn’t have to be drained. I then add mayonnaise, red onion, celery, a bit of hard-boiled egg, a pinch of black pepper, let chill, and serve with/on tomato slices. An additional treat with all of it is a generous helping of good-quality, very fresh coleslaw.

      1. carcinization*

        Yeah, I don’t eat tuna salad, but my husband does, and when he makes it he definitely uses the tuna in packets, which avoids the draining issue!

  24. Angstrom*

    People sending or forwarding emails for personal use that have their full work signature block and legal notice: “This email is intended for use by employees of Megacorp…….”.
    I see those in the local community listserv and think “Really? You couldn’t take five seconds to delete that?”

  25. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    My current life hack/mini serotonin boost: unsubscribe from one email list every day. initially I was doing this for a week but turns out I have inbox material for the rest of the month!

    Anyone got any micro-organising tips or things you’re implementing to feel like a total boss?

    1. JD*

      Every now and then I decide to delete 3 emails for every one that comes in. (Usually at times when work isn’t crazy.) If I can do it for a few days straight it really helps keep my in-box manageable.

    2. Copper Penny*

      I am currently opening my photo app on my phone, searching today’s date and then deleting screenshots., duplicates, random things etc. so I can clear up cloud storage.

    3. acmx*

      I have multiple email addresses. Main, junk, one for travel and entertainment, work, one for rental property. More obvious (but recent for me) was filtering my emails in my main account.

      I will delete emails off my phone when I fly and don’t feel like reading. Just swiping is so easy.
      Occasionally, (like end of the year) I will sort be sender and mass delete.

    4. Lady Sally*

      Purge three items each weekend. Donate, recycle, whatever. But find 3 things to get out of the house. (You said micro was ok!)

    5. skylight*

      this is not organizing but makes me feel like I accomplished something . I’ve started doing two planks daily, each for 30 seconds right after my alarm goes off. Takes less two minutes even with a short rest in between. Has totally changed the way my mornings go. No longer feel groggy for two hours until my brain wakes up. Dog has learned my new routine and does not bother me until I’m done.

      1. Sloanicota*

        My dog is so cute when I do yoga. He always comes over with a clear expression of concern (“why is human on the floor??”) and then puts his face in my face the whole time. I should train him to stop but I find it so cute that I can’t haha. At least it’s starting the day with a laugh/smile I guess.

      2. carcinization*

        I do a sun salutation (including plank) every workday morning and agree that it helps immensely!

    6. Elastigirl*

      I’ve been unsubscribing from an email a day for a couple of years. On the one hand, I’m sorry to say that somehow the unsolicited emails keep coming and the task never ends. On the other hand, I shudder to imagine how awful the email swamp would be if I wasn’t doing it!

  26. 248_Ballerinas*

    We have so many avid readers in the AAM community, which I love. Question: Do you have people in your life who do not, will not, read, and if so, how do you work around that?

    I’m talking about adults who are capable of reading but do not enjoy it. Do you try to encourage them to dip into a book? How to do so without coming off as a nag or know-it-all?

    I know people have a right to enjoy what they want, reading – even light, fluffy books – seems like such a positive thing to add to one’s life that it’s hard not to encourage it.

    And yes, it would give us more to talk about when we get together.

    1. ecnaseener*

      I talk to them about other things? Maybe because I’ve gone through periods of Just Not having the right mindset to read for pleasure, but it’s never occurred to me to try to convince an adult to read books if they say it’s not their thing. There are many other stories and art forms for them to enjoy!

    2. Deuce of Gears*

      I’m that person. If you know them well enough and they *haven’t* asked for book recs or indicated interest, mayyyyybe bring it up once or a book you think they’d enjoy, and then drop it, please.

      I’m a novelist. Writing is my day job. Reading has so much baggage/pressure associated with it that I dread it. I would rather exercise, do crafts, listen to music than read books.

      But I’ve known non-writers who don’t read for various reasons: they have other all-consuming pursuits that make them happy, and those pursuits don’t include reading. Dyslexia etc. makes reading a chore. Or there’s functionally zero representation for them in their preferred genre/language. (This has also been me. It’s astonishingly common.) The list could go on.

      Turning books into Here Are Your Vitamins kills my interest in reading even deader than it already is.

      Seriously, I get it. Books are great for people who want them! But also, there are a lot of great things in the world. There are a lot of positive things to add to one’s life. It’s okay for entertainment/pleasure reading not to be one of them.

      Could you meet in the middle? Hang out and read your book while they do their Fun Thing? Mayyyybe take turns talking about books vs. talking about their Fun Thing? If they’re into (say) music, briefly tell them about your latest favorite book and its vibes, ask them to help you come up with a playlist for it so they get to do music things, maybe you find some way to do their Fun Thing with them on other occasions?

    3. Emma*

      If they don’t want to read, they don’t have to read.

      Think about how it would feel if they were really into rock climbing, and you weren’t, but they kept gently encouraging you, giving you rock climbing brochures, sending you videos about rock climbing, giving you their favorite rock climbing equipment. It would be weird, right?

      If the issue is that they want encouragement to read more, then sure, help them! But if they don’t, that’s fine. Just talk about other stuff. I read, but don’t really talk about reading with others in my life. it’s fine!

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yep. My thing is that I’m not into prestige television. I don’t know why, I just can’t be arsed to start new shows; I’m watching reruns of 90s procedurals in the background of what I’m doing. This drives people who love me crazy. They are sure I would love some of the new shows, and, like you, I’m sure they’re thinking it would give them more to talk about. But I’m not really hurting anything and I’m planning to keep on keepin’ on, so I will extend them the same courtesy on books I’ve liked that they don’t feel like reading! C’est la vie.

        1. RussianInTexas*

          I feel like this about prestige books. I read at least an hour daily, sometimes more.
          I NEVER want to read any auto biographies (most real life people do not interest me), high brow non-fiction, high-brow talked about fiction, there are book genres I just don’t do.
          Leave me alone with my murder mysteries, non fiction that I find myself, kings and queens of European countries, etc.

          1. PhyllisB*

            My husband is a book snob. He thinks that paperbacks are inferior, and he hates that I have a ton of them in the bookcases. He also looks down on fiction. The only literature worth reading in his opinion, is history or nonfiction. This affects me…not at all. He can enjoy his books on The Third Reich ( or whatever) and I’ll be here in the corner enjoying my cozies.

            1. PhyllisB*

              I do read things besides cozies. The point is the majority of what I read is some types of fiction and he thinks that’s awful.

        2. Jay (no, the other one)*

          Same. Never watched “The Sopranos,” “The Wire,” “Breaking Bad,” “Downton Abbey.” Probably never will unless I’m trapped on a very long plane and “Abbey” is the only choice. Will absolutely never watch the other because I don’t enjoy violence or cruelty in my entertainment. My husband wants to watch “Masters of the Air.” I watched the first hour with him and will probably not join him for the rest.

          I have a friend who REALLY REALLY REALLY wants me to watch “Ted Lasso” and I suspect I would like it. It still feels like too much of a commitment.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            That’s the problem with Prestige TV: it becomes A Whole Thing rather than “I enjoy this thing but I’m not down with marrying it.”

            I tend to be completist with some shows, like Midsomer Murders and Death in Paradise, but that’s because they’re fun and soothing to watch. I also have had real appointment TV in the past (when Mad Men was airing the rule was “you do not speak to me when the show’s on unless the flames have reached the hallway”) but too often trying to start something like The Wire or Breaking Bad feels like just too much to shoulder.

        3. Annabelle*

          “ Yep. My thing is that I’m not into prestige television”

          Yesssss, my twin. Just let me watch Bobs Burgers or something, my brain is DONE by the end of the workday! I don’t need The Wire or White Lotus to bum me out when I can just read a newspaper.

      2. Clisby*

        Exactly. I have a couple of brothers who are perfectly capable of reading, but that’s not really their idea of a fun time.

        I once said something like, “How can you not like to read?”

        One replied, “How can you not like to go hunting?

      3. Double A*

        This is hilarious to me because reading and rock climbing are my two hobbies that I love. And I do indeed try to get people to try climbing with me, because it’s not something a lot of people have tried and that’s how you fall in love with it. Reading, on the other hand, is something everyone knows about and has done to some extent and has access to, so I assume people can make the choice to do it.

        1. RussianInTexas*

          But if a person tells you firmly that o, mountain climbing is absolutely not for me, even when I never tried it, will you continue to urge them?

    4. Jenna Webster*

      How would you feel if all your friends started nagging you to try the activities they live and can’t understand why you won’t try them? Go ahead and msg them to read and they can nag you to bicycle or go clubbing or join a church or start canning your own food. Alternatively, you could enjoy them for who they are and find other ways to connect with them. I’ve never met anyone who was successfully nagged into beginning a reader

      1. 248_Ballerinas*

        Oh, I know you shouldn’t turn reading into an eat-your-vegetables chore. I hope to be a subtle “evangelist” for reading for pleasure.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          But are you interacting with people who didn’t know it was possible to read for pleasure?

          As with evangelizing a literal religion, I think the most effective way is to live your life and be happy and interesting. And then people may be inclined to check out your Thing. Proselytizing has negative connotations for good reason.

          (All of the above typed as someone who hates rhubarb. Yes, I have had strawberry rhubarb pie.)

        2. Not A Manager*

          I think this is such a loving urge. Of course you want to share your pleasure with people you love! But I think the urge should be resisted. Do you remember the character of Mr. Woodhouse in Emma? How he’s found a physical routine and a diet that work for him, and he loves his friends so much, he wants them to be happy and healthy just the way he is?

          I think about him a lot, mostly when I’m enjoying my Brussels sprouts (which I adore), or I’m working out (which I don’t adore but I really like the results in a lot of ways). I have so many friends who would really benefit from more cruciform vegetables and some light stretching!

          Mr. Woodhouse is a toxic nuisance and I really don’t want to be like that. :)

            1. TassieTiger*

              I got the opposite- it was useful for me to think on the fact that an instinct/urge can come from a loving place, but should still not be acted on.

            2. Falling Diphthong*

              Thought experiment:
              What if, when someone did or suggested an action you didn’t like, their underlying motivation was kind and caring?
              What if, when you did or suggested an action someone didn’t like, they immediately assumed your underlying motivation could not be kind or caring?

              1. RussianInTexas*

                If this person already knows you don’t like something, yes, I will at least think they are being annoying.

        4. Coconutty*

          Why? Why does it bother you so much that people don’t enjoy reading? I assume that you’re not picking up every activity that those people in your life do enjoy just so you can have more to talk about, so why is it so important to you?

          I love to read. Some of my loved ones do, some do not. If I found myself using the word evangelize to describe my relationship to a hobby, it would be a serious call to reconsider how I’m treating others about it.

      2. Busy Middle Manager*

        It doesn’t need to be nagging though

        I’ve mentioned interesting articles or books to people in passing when they said “I don’t have time” as they sit their scrolling the phone all day.

        I’m not nudging people to punish them, it’s more of “hey, that would interest you, but it’s print form, so you have to turn off the tv to engage with it.”

        I don’t think anyone is chasing someone else with a library cart

        2. Annabelle*

          “I’ve mentioned interesting articles or books to people in passing when they said “I don’t have time” as they sit their scrolling the phone all day.”

          How do you know they aren’t reading though while they do that? Articles, blogs, ebooks, etc?

        3. RussianInTexas*

          If you tell me verbatim “it’s print form, so you have to turn off the tv to engage with it” I will make sure to never read whatever it is you suggested.

        4. Irish Teacher.*

          I suspect when people say they don’t have time but are doing something else, they don’t mean “I really, really want to do that but I am so busy that I am struggling to find time to do it.” They mean more, “that isn’t a priority for me. I might do it if I find time but it’s a long way down my list and I am going to do the things I really enjoy first before something I’m pretty indifferent to” or they mean they don’t want to do it but they are being polite and rather than saying something that interests you sounds really boring, they say they don’t have time.

          I still haven’t gotten around to watching a TV show one of my colleagues appeared on maybe two weeks ago. I do mean to watch it. I just haven’t gotten around to it. That isn’t because I have literally no time whatsoever. I’ve read for at least an hour each of those days and have spent a number of hours each day online, but reading, keeping up with facebook, reading AAM, playing games online are all things I prefer to watching TV, so when I say I’ll watch a TV show if I get time, I don’t mean just “unless I have work or chores”. I also mean “if I get time after doing the things I enjoy most.” My reading hour is not being put aside just for TV.

          So for them, it is very likely that they prioritise what they are doing online over the articles you are suggesting, possibly because they don’t find those articles as interesting as the ones they may be reading online or whatever else they may be doing online. When they say they don’t have time, they more mean that isn’t a priority for them.

    5. Falling Diphthong*

      I just finished T. Kingfisher’s Summer in Orcus and I really appreciated that the villain is a voracious reader. Like, he carries books around and reads them on spider-back while his minions rough up the local populace. A love of reading is so often used as fiction shorthand for being an admirable person, when it’s actually a value-neutral activity.

      My younger child isn’t much of a reader. So I give him other gifts. And we talk about other things. I watched the Super Bowl because he had gotten me into watching the occasional game when he was living at home, and we all watched soccer with my daughter when she was living in Europe–what do the nonreaders in your life open you up to?

    6. RussianInTexas*

      I know plenty, and I do nothing about it, and it does not require any kind of work around. It’s none of my business if someone does or does not like to read. I share some books I read and liked with some people who I know for sure do read, but in a very casual way, like “I read xxx and I did not know yyyy before that!”.
      My partner reads, I wouldn’t have him as a partner otherwise. I do not care for literally anyone else wherever they read or not. I would never encourage an adult to read, just like I wouldn’t encourage an adult to paint, or go camping, or garden, or any other hobby. I would not appreciate people encouraging me to do things I don’t like to do.
      And yes, I have plenty to talk to about with people who don’t read books.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        But the funny part is, my partner’s are mine favorite book genres pretty much do not overlap, so we rarely talk about books we read anyway.

    7. WellRed*

      Some people just don’t read. They are missing out (to us) but they have other priorities that I’d probably not be interested in. But I also rarely talk books with my friends when we get together. We talk about lives jobs kids latest trip or reminiscing.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, same. I don’t talk about books with my friends because most of them aren’t readers. I don’t judge my friends for that.

        My husband is a reader and our tastes coincide but don’t overlap. Both of us read sci-fi and fantasy and some crime novels. He reads horror that I avoid and more non-fiction than I do. I read cozy mysteries and biographies that don’t interest him.

    8. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah, you can’t do this with adults, and certainly not through the course of just having a conversation. Look, I get it. I’m an avid reader, and I feel strongly enough about it that I have laser focused my English teaching specialism so that I get to concentrate on mostly just teaching reading. I teach kids to overcome their technical difficulties with reading, and I teach capable-but-bored readers how to enjoy it (the skills which lie behind enjoyment are: predict, summarise, clarify (which means looking up and researching anything you don’t understand with curiosity) and asking questions (like why would character X do that?). I think reading, and reading obsessively is life affirmative and life changing. But. People who read well, and have the skills to make it enjoyable frequently underestimate the work they are putting in when they read, because they are using well oiled muscles. You could possibly bring up one of the helpful skills required through another medium: like challenging someone to predict the ending of a show you both like, or you could recommend an audio book, or say the book X is based on is better. But you can’t tell people what to like. Everything I said about reading? People also say about sport. I live in a football mad city (soccer) and neither me or my partner have ever been able to see anything in it aside from the fact that a football is definitely getting kicked around a field. His uncle once said we “have a sad, football-bereft household”.

    9. Courageous cat*

      There’s nothing to work around. You can’t do it without coming across as a nag or a know-it-all, I think. Just let people do what they want!

    10. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My dad writes, but doesn’t read, and it boggles me. I’ve tried a couple of times over the years, given him books that I thought he would like, but after he handed me back a series I’d given him that was still in the original gift bag from five years before, I gave up. :P

      1. RussianInTexas*

        I read, and I will freely admit that I read almost no books people ever gifted me. Most books represent what people THINK I would like, not what I actually like.
        In addition, I read 100% of my books on Kindle, unless they are art books, so I just put the gifted paper books unread to the local Little Library.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Well, in that particular case, I had told him about the series (because it’s one of my favorites) and he said it sounded interesting, which is why I gave them to him.
          ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          This. I have a giant list on Amazon of books I’m interested in, and my sister (for example) never buys any of them because they don’t interest HER. “Why are so many weird Japanese books on here?” Um, I thought they sounded good? I’m not making her read them, so why does she care?

        3. ThatOtherClare*

          Me too! I enjoy action, fantasy, and sci-fi best, but if the female characters are either unrealistic or all exactly the same person stamped out of the one mould, I will drop a book like it’s on fire. People are surprisingly bad at recognising when all the women in a book have exactly the same ‘strong and confident female’ personality with similar flaws, motivations, and reactions to stimuli. It’s a disease that shows up with some extremely popular series.

          Unfortunately, I find many books written by women are way too relationship focused for my taste. The women in them have different personalities, but the narrative is all to often ‘human interaction’ instead of ‘battle against the odds’. It is very hard to find books that I enjoy.

          All I want is for some Clarissa Cussler or Ida Fleming to write a stack of gender flipped trashy action novels where the heroine collects ball gowns instead of sports cars and instead of machine guns, the villainous henchwomen all carry poison-tipped stilettos (the blade or the shoe, idc, surprise me). Make the maverick genius team hacker a woman with an AI that sounds like a cat instead of the usual cliché hot woman. The complex but evil villain wants to take down the world banking system because her single mother couldn’t get a home loan.

          It doesn’t seem hard, considering the sheer volume of existing male-oriented action novels. You could even cheat and literally write all characters male as usual and just mirror the pronouns before publishing. Done.

          Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Rant over. I’m going to go hug a copy of All Systems Red now.

      2. RussianInTexas*

        My dad, an extremely smart man, a PhD, basically never read for pleasure. Not books, at least. He could never sit though a movie either, and I think, in general, he was/is probably has some level of ADHD.

    11. MissCoco*

      I simply act as if they aren’t going to want to read! If I have a book I want to tell them about because I think it’s interesting, I don’t have to edit out the good parts or keep from “spoiling it”.

      I have plenty of friends who don’t like podcasts, which I love. If a topic I learned about on a podcast comes up, I share what I learned and just know they aren’t going to listen to it themselves. I might make one or two low-pressure recommendations per year with the understanding they are probably not going to follow up on them, but more than that starts to feel like nagging.

      I’ve gone through phases where I don’t have the bandwidth to read, and there are plenty of people who just find reading too effortful to be a leisure activity, and I don’t really think there’s anything someone else could say or do to change that.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        When I am stressed or mentally tired, I normally don’t read my regular books either. But I usually want to read/sort of read something, so I flip through some of the big nerdy coffee table books, like The World of Ice and Fire (lights of pretty pictures), Uniforms of Star Trek, How to Read a Dress, the big book of NatGeo infographics, or even some prettier cook books.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        An advantage from back in Ye Olden Times when broadcast TV was the only option was that you could discuss what happened on the Wednesday night shows Thursday morning at work. Asynchronous viewing is great, but asynchronous discussion doesn’t work well.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Ugh, it’s so hard to negotiate the “wait, which episode/season are you up to?” thing every time you want to talk about a show.

    12. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Anyone who nudges me repeatedly to engage in an activity I don’t enjoy– especially one that I have tried and I know for sure I do not enjoy– is not someone I care to spend time with. If we have nothing or very little in common because I don’t partake in the same activities, then the friendship naturally fizzles. And that’s ok, sometimes people aren’t compatible or they grow apart, but my friends are people who can meet me where I am and vice versa.

      I’m technically capable of skiing but I don’t enjoy it. I’ve done it. I know I don’t like it. If a skiing enthusiast friend tried to “encourage” me repeatedly to ski because they think it would be good for me, I would step far back from that friendship.

      If your friends ask you for book recommendations, fine. If they agree to meet you in a bookstore, fine. But presumably they’re adults and they know what they enjoy as well as what they’re willing to try.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        It’s like when people try to get you to eat a food you don’t like. I’m an adult, my tastes are pretty much formed. I am indeed sure I will not like X, please stop acting like I’m missing out on God’s Cupcakes or whatever.

        1. WestsideStory*

          Agreed. My in-laws don’t read anything, never watch the news or take an interest in the arts in their city, which abounds in cultural offerings. I would never push them to try to enjoy my interests. They are their own people. Back in 2020 I actually got my SIL registered to vote, for the first time, and hope to gin her up enough to get to the polls this year.
          You pick your battles. If you like books, join or create a book club, and find your reading friends there.

    13. ccsquared*

      This isn’t directly about reading, but something I fairly recently am coming into understanding in my early 40s: not all friendships and certainly not all meaningful relationships will be about shared interests and hobbies. For example, maybe you value their advice on life matters, or you could call them in a pinch, or they’re family. If you are finding it difficult to find things to talk about, maybe try to find different activities to do with them so that there’s less pressure to converse or something else to talk about, or maybe you don’t hang out much at all, but have other ways to maintain those social ties.

      Also, I think it would help for you to consider that other people might be getting the same benefits you get from reading from other things that work better for them, such as watching art films, listening to complex music, viewing art, or listening to longform podcasts or journalism. I also know people who are sophisticated thinkers and great conversationalists, but get enough mental stimulation from their job, and recreation to them means pop music and reality TV. Your impulse to want the people in your life to have the same richness that you do is a noble one, just keep in mind people are different and so they may find that in other things, and that’s ok.

      And if you deeply desire to talk about books with people, that’s totally awesome, but you might need to find book clubs or other ways to meet fellow readers. Or if you meet someone who is a reader, take initiative to find ways to hang out with them more, rather than trying to convert existing friends into the reading buddies you desire.

      1. Elastigirl*

        “I also know people who are sophisticated thinkers and great conversationalists, but get enough mental stimulation from their job, and recreation to them means pop music and reality TV. ” — Great insight!

        I have spent a good part of my career writing things that appear on screens that people watch, and now I teach students who write things that appear on screens that people watch — and I find that I have to be very careful about what scripted TV I watch, because it drains my writing energy. So I watch Survivor and The Bachelor and Great British Baking Show and Shark Tank and and and…. because they are actual recreation to my mind.

    14. GoryDetails*

      Heh! Most of my friends and family do read for pleasure – though not generally at the same rate that I do – so I seldom run into a non-reader. (There are a few whose books-per-year are in the single digits – they’d rather spend their time playing online games or being in a band. And some are busy writing their own books, so their reading-for-pleasure time has dropped.) But I’ve never minded those differences in interests; we find other things to talk about, or I mention an amusing/unusual book and they tell me about an unexpectedly weird final-boss situation in a game, or we debate which new pub to visit for dinner.

      I do often gift books to people, especially if I know that they’ve enjoyed something in that general genre/style before; I don’t nag them about reading same, and don’t ask what’s become of the books afterwards, but sometimes get a pleasant surprise when they tell me they loved it and possibly even want to read more by that author/in that style.

    15. Jay (no, the other one)*

      My kid stopped reading for pleasure after third grade. Reading logs ruined it for her (they are evil. Seriously). I was a book-a-day kid and still go through spurts like that. I love to read. I can’t imagine not reading. And I very quickly learned that it was very bad for our relationships if she got any hint that I thought she should be reading or I was disappointed that she didn’t. So I worked very very hard to not feel that way and pretty much got over it. She is voraciously curious and does deep dives into the things that interest her. Those deep dives involve YouTube and other online resources, not books. OK. In college she was fascinated by some of the required texts – she loved “Oryx and Crake” and pushed me to read it – so I figured her education had done a decent job.

      Fast-forward to age 23 when I apologized for asking her to stop in a bookstore while we were waiting for a table at the restaurant next door. “Oh, that’s OK, Mom. I like to read now.” She reads what is often condescendingly called “chick lit” and now we trade book recommendations. There was absolutely nothing – zero, zip, nada – I could have done to speed this up or change her trajectory. And if I had pushed I suspect she would have resolutely chosen to be a non-reader or never told me if she changed her mind. Don’t evangelize. Leave them be and talk about other things.

      1. allathian*

        With kids, being a good example helps. My son wasn’t interested in reading until he was 11. Then he suddenly announced that he wanted to read Harry Potter and he’s been a reader ever since. Both my husband and I read, he’s seen us reading from a very young age, we read to him until he was 11 and decided he preferred to read himself.

    16. Irish Teacher.*

      I don’t really think of it as something to work around. I don’t try and encourage them to do something they aren’t interested in, just as I would expect they wouldn’t try to encourage me to go to the gym or watch regular TV.

      I just enjoy my hobbies and leave them enjoy theirs.

    17. Esme W*

      Work around? I just talk to them about the things we do have in common, and save the book talk for my friends who are also readers. It’s not a big deal. And no, I don’t try to encourage other adults to read – they know what books are, they can decide for themselves if they want to read them or not. It’s not up to me to try to change them. That would be really crass and rude of me.

    18. Annabelle*

      I love reading but am only recently getting over a LONG dry spell of longform reading for a variety of reasons. I feel like that is a surprisingly common thing for some people, especially after the last few years (it wouldn’t surprise me if long COVID or untreated anxiety and depression—say from a global pandemic—can mess with your attention span and bandwidth for things like longform reading, even for pleasure).
      Dyslexia, poor childhood/school experiences, early literacy issues, money, other ,earning disabilities, plain old personal preference etc, can all play a factor in whether or not people enjoy reading.
      And going back to me LOVING to read (I’ve been on a kick of mainlining romance books through Kindle Unlimited lately)— the fastest way to get me to not enjoy reading is to make it an obligation, to judge me on it, or to otherwise turn it into a chore. A friend recommending books is one thing. A friend pushing it and pushing it? Hmmmm no. I am probably the only bookworm in America who lived through the Book-It era and did not actually enjoy it for the same reason I never enjoyed summer reading lists in school: the requirement aspect. You took sometime I already loved doing and was doing on my own anyway, and now you’ve made it a chore/assignment because other people had to be cajoled into doing it? How is that my problem??*
      So I would kind of just maybe let sleeping dogs lie with this? I’ve had people judge me for being into reading and “reading too much” and that was obnoxious. Being on the flip side of that is probably obnoxious too.

      *I know it sounds crazy to hate on Book-It so let me clarify a little. Part of Book-It involved like, the whole class getting a pizza party at some point, right? If everyone read X number of books or they all read the same book (GAG) or whatever? I just remember me not reading fast enough or whatever in like 2nd grade, at one point that apparently my teachers were like, “Annabelle is why we’re not having the pizza party” and everyone being all pissed off about that even though these were classmates who literally had to be bribed with pizza (and McDonald’s and homework passes and god knows what else) to read a book outside of class. Any book. Ever. All the time. So that is my hang up about Book-It.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        In Ireland, we had the Readathon, which I steadfastly refused to take part in throughout my childhood, confusing everybody as I think even the highest number of books you could choose to read was lower than what I habitually read. Part of my reason was that I didn’t want to have to go around getting people to sponser me but most of it was because reading was for fun. It wasn’t something to go looking for kudos – look at how many books I read – for.

        And things like Book-It can be problematic (I just googled what it was) because it teaches children that reading is a chore you deserve a reward for because you’ve done something so onerous. I read something once about some study done where children who were rewarded for drawing or colouring were less likely to do it afterwards because they’d been trained to see it as a chore.

        Treating reading as something so unpleasant you deserve a reward for getting through it strikes me as likely to put kids off reading. Getting to read should be the reward.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        Ugghhh, that’s such crap. At least back in my day, when we rode dinosaurs to school, you won stuff like personal gift certificates to Pizza Hut or whatever. Nobody’s pizza party hung on how many books one kid got through.

        (I shall now show off my literary cred by referencing The Lottery)

    19. Dark Macadamia*

      I have literally never thought about the reading habits of other adults. I’m an English teacher and I don’t read for fun nearly as often as I would like! Let people use their limited leisure time how they want.

    20. Mind blowing Tuesday*

      I read a lot but if that was the only topic a friend wanted to discuss when we got together it would get old very quickly. Wouldn’t you be interested in hearing about their hobbies or have another hobby yourself that you can discuss?

    21. HannahS*

      Well, different people like different things. I’m a big reader and always was, and am from a family of enthusiastic readers. My husband is not. He broadens his mind by listening to podcasts, watching TV and movies, listening to the radio, and reading shorter things, like news articles and blog posts. I respect his interests and he respects mine.

      We talk about what fiction we’re consuming (whatever modality,) our work (which is very different,) politics, parenting, our friends and family, our future, our travel plans, our shared interests, and our hobbies (which are totally different–he likes sports and I sew.)

      It’s tempting to think that because something enriches your life, it must be good for everyone. “Oh, this person would be so much better off if they would just do this thing that I do/love this thing that I love!” But people are different. Books aren’t inherently superior to other interests.

      1. HannahS*

        Oh, also, I HAAAATE it when my partner, who is a naturally gifted athlete who also spends a lot of time trying to become an even better athlete says things like, “But playing sports is so much fun! Exercise doesn’t have to be a chore. I always say that you just need to find something that you like.”

        This is very infuriating for me. There are NO forms of sports/exercise that I like. I have TRIED. I have tried EVERYTHING. The benefits of team sports are manifold (cooperation, discipline, aerobic exercise, strength, coordination) and I will encourage our children to be healthy and active AND ALSO I need other people to hear and respect that IT’S NOT FUN FOR ME. (And to his credit, he doesn’t say that anymore.)

        So, as a Book Person I don’t go around saying, “But honey, you just need to find a genre that you like!” He doesn’t like reading. It’s not fun for him. I respect that.

        1. allathian*

          I also hope that you’ll respect it if your children hate all sports and don’t want to do them as extracurriculars when they go to school.

          1. HannahS*

            What a strange remark to a comment about respecting others peoples’ interests and encouraging my own children to be healthy and active, a vague and innocuous goal. Can a woman say one thing about parenting without immediately being scolded?

            1. allathian*

              I didn’t mean to scold and I’m sorry if I sounded like I was.

              I don’t enjoy exercise either and do the bare minimum, but I do encourage him to exercise (running or cross-country skiing when there’s snow) with my marathon runner husband. I join them on low (for them) and medium (for me) intensity bike rides in the summer. I should ride our ststionary bike more often than I do, but it’s so boring…

              2. HannahS*

                Thanks, it sounds like we’re in a similar boat of encouraging healthy activity despite not really enjoying athletic things. I spent my morning playing hockey with my toddler.

          2. Irish Teacher.*

            I presume she meant she won’t discourage them from taking an interest in sports and that she will encourage them to try them and see if they enjoy them, not that she will insist they play sports. Given that she doesn’t like them, it strikes me as unlikely she’ll be that parent who thinks every kid must be a sports star.

          3. Falling Diphthong*

            This is a genuinely bizarre take on the idea that someone will encourage their children to be healthy and active.

            (I do not enjoy competitive sports, or team sports. Both my kids got a lot out of youth soccer; younger still plays a competitive team sport while oldest focuses on climbing and triathlons. If anything, I think it’s quite normal for your children to expand your world.)

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          But playing sports is so much fun! Exercise doesn’t have to be a chore. I always say that you just need to find something that you like.

          I promise him, for me exercise IS a chore. I am clumsy and uncoordinated and there is no version of sport or workout that doesn’t result in me falling over or getting hit in the head with a ball. Add in my asthma + hill of any kind = WHEEZE and nope, this will never, ever be something I do for fun.

    22. Non Reader*

      It’s a positive *for you* but that’s not universal. Don’t press anyone to do anything they don’t enjoy because you think you know better. You don’t.

    23. RagingADHD*

      The only way to do this that isn’t obnoxious and controlling, is to simply share genuine enthusiasm for something you are currently reading and describe what you like about it.

      There are a lot of things my loved ones enjoy that I don’t, and vice versa. But I do like hearing about things that make them happy. And sometimes the way they describe something gets me interested in trying it.

      Sometimes (probably most of the time) it doesn’t. So if you do this, you have to view it simply as a way of making conversation and connecting with the person. Not a way to make them change their mind or behavior.

    24. HBJ*

      I am an avid reader, but it pretty rarely comes up as a topic or conversation. Honestly, we were just with a group of friends a couple nights ago and never once talked about books. We talked about the weather, spring break plans, were we going to X and Y events coming up, the one person’s vacation they just got back from, another person’s kid’s upcoming medical appointment, kids sleeping habits, etc.

      Honestly, I find it hard to believe reading would provide that much convo fodder unless you’re in a book club. There’s so many books out there, and people have such varied tastes, what are the odds they read the same books as you? Even though I read a fair bit, I read very little of what’s new and hip and popular. I just scrolled through the first half or so of The New Yorker’s best books of 2023 (it was long!), and I’d read none of them. Then, I scrolled through the first 75 or so of GoodRead’s best books of the 2020s list, and I’d read exactly one.

      1. HBJ*

        Oh, and FWIW, most of my books come from the library, so I always skim the new book shelf to see if anything interests me, and I frequently grab books off of there. So I’m not just reading really old stuff or anything like that. But apparently, they’re just not the kind of books that make “great books” lists. Recently, one was a novel, one was about the manufacturing of food, several were how-to books (cookbooks, hobbies, area-specific about outdoor recreation, etc.), one was an autobiography about someone who is only well known in a fairly niche community.

      2. Double A*

        I’m an avid reader and am friends with plenty of avid readers and we actually don’t talk about books a ton because we don’t read the same books at the same time! Sometimes we’ll get into recommendation mode which is fun, but frankly even if we’ve both read the book, the likelihood that both of us remember it well enough to talk about it in detail is kind of slim.

    25. goddessoftransitory*

      I’ve found that the majority of people I’ve met who really dislike reading had dyslexia or other problems growing up, and associate reading with difficulty and failure, not with relaxation or pleasure.

      Luckily things have changed a lot in the last few years, and the huge advent of audio books makes a big difference.

    26. Morning Reading*

      I’ll agree with others that we mostly leave our adult friends to their own preferences. I may encourage interest in a particular book for a friend who likes that topic or genre, but I don’t push it. Mostly I will share tidbits of what I am reading.
      I think you are mainly talking about books. If I knew someone who could not or did not read anything, ever, I would be more concerned. I remember when the Harry Potter books came out and the librarian community was ecstatic, with “hurray, the children are reading again!” Because up to that point, reading was on the decline. I kept waiting in the late 90s for reading to be superseded. Surely it would not be necessary once we all had the devices and bandwidth to talk and listen instead. I’ve also been waiting for the “hurray, the children are reading, and writing!” With the advent of texting and emailing and blogging, all the written communication most of us do more of than ever before. It never came, at least not from librarians far as I noticed. The use of written language has never declined the way I thought it might. Anyone who cannot or does not read must be at a disadvantage these days, but it seems like most of us are using written communication more than ever before, even if it’s not in long form like books.

      1. Inkhorn*

        Hopefully I’ll be able to say this about my boyfriend in 24 years!

        I’m a lifelong avid reader who owns more than 800 books and counting. He could count his library on one hand.

        Conversely he’s an avid cinephile, with a home cinema and a movie library and multiple streaming services. I … well, I do actually own a tv, but it only has free-to-air channels and is largely ornamental.

        This has caused precisely zero problems. Gazing at a screen works for him, curling up with a bundle of pages works for me; that’s just how our respective brains operate. I do have a mental note of a few books I’d lend him IF (and only if) he ever expressed an interest in reading something other than online articles, but unless that ever happens I’ll keep on letting him be him. Just like he lets me be my non-screen-gazing self.

        Admittedly before him I would have found the idea of a relationship with a non-reader incomprehensible, but now I can see the advantage: if/when we move in together, the bookshelf space will be ALL MINE.

        1. Angstrom*

          I had a relationship end because of a difference in reading backgrounds. I came from a family of voracious readers, they did not. I’d use a term with a literary origin in everyday conversation(muse, Dickensian, odyssey, etc) and they’d accuse me of doing it deliberately to make them feel stupid. Sigh.

          1. RagingADHD*

            I mean, that had zero to do with reading and everything to do with their inferiority complex. Someone in that mindset is going to be defensive and accusatory about anything. Good thing you found it out when it was confined to books and not, like, your career or parenting choices.

    28. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      I was a pretty heavy reader most of my life, but I’ve gotten away from it in recent years, due to cataracts (finally fixed, but now my close vision is not as crisp) and hand arthritis. But although I don’t read physical books very often, I’ll read one occasionally online, where I can control the brightness and position. But reading your post and the comments made me realize that I DO read a lot. I read posts on FB from my family and friends, and I also read articles there in the interest groups I’m in – history, politics, travel, food, culture – some are subjects I’d never have bothered to read in a book. And I’m always looking up more in-depth articles on various topics. So I may not read books, but I still spend most of my day reading. For all you know, your friends might be doing the same thing and wonder why you think only physical books can improve someone’s mind.

    29. don'tbeadork*

      I don’t work around it. My youngest brother doesn’t care to read despite growing up in a family of readers. We talk about other stuff when we talk. He finds his life fulfilling sans books and I prefer to have books in my life, but we both have pets, loved ones, hobbies and other things we can talk about. Or we just sit quietly with the connection of the phone or proximity allowing us to enjoy each other’s company. It’s enough.

    30. ThatOtherClare*

      I know the son of an English teacher, a very clever man with a PhD in Mathematics, who doesn’t read for pleasure. He has a very detailed memory for conversations, and even though he also has an excellent visual memory and can rotate very complicated shapes in his brain, he just seems to prefer obtaining information via audio input. He basically only consumes books as audiobooks. He says he’ll even read textbooks via pdf text-to-speech if they’re not too equation-heavy.

      I’ve learned that if I want to discuss anything new with him when we meet, I have to send him a YouTube video on the topic (which is a pain in the backside, since that’s not my usual method of finding information). He simply will not read even the shortest article or blog post, even if the information is really important to me -_-

      I’m used to it now. Just like my vegetarian friends who will only come with me to certain restaurants or my immunocompromised friend whom I can’t visit when I have a cold, it’s just part of the adjustments I make in exchange for the privilege of having a relationship with them. For me it’s worth it.

    31. Gamer Girl*

      My husband can’t/won’t read books. In a nutshell, there’s some kind of learning issue there involving difficulty processing text. However, he recognized it as a problem a long time ago and listens to audiobooks instead. That’s the perfect workaround for him, bit it’s only because he’s motivated to do it.

      Also, it’s important to let go of ideas around what books people “should” be reaching, imo. So many people enjoy non fiction and dislike fiction (iirc it’s around 50 percent, even among kids), and that interest was not validated or encouraged when they were kids. I usually just mention great, true stories I’ve read, and quite a few people who love a good story but hate fiction check them out. But, I’d never schools someone for not reading. Instead, I just keep mentioning great stories I’ve read or listened to. If you hit on the right topic, people are likely to bite.

    32. carcinization*

      I’ve always liked to read but I am coming up with a complete blank as to why I would try to get someone who does not read for pleasure to do so. Everybody’s different. For example, I don’t play video games but know people who spend their time that way, and I certainly wouldn’t start to play video games even if one of them tried to encourage me to, though I’d probably sit and read a book while they played a video game if they wanted to hang out that way!

  28. Ellis Bell*

    Does anyone have any general motivational tips for just keeping going while losing some weight and life is also happening? I generally think diets suck, and I don’t go in for them all that often, but I was greatly impressed by some advice from a nutritionist who was basically saying not to sweat the small stuff and to lose it really slowly, which sounded right up my alley. He also said taking breaks and maintenance is fine, even preferable which also sounded smart and realistic to me. So I go in with the aim of losing 1lb a week, and I end up losing 2, which is still within safe limits as I understand it, so I was pretty happy. A big part of it was how active I am at work, and I was also tracking calories, which I don’t want to do long term (this nutritionist said to do it just for a little while to get a sense of it, and to get your meals planned, and then to try doing it without counting). So I get a week off work, which also coincides with my birthday, and having a horrible cold. I haven’t been active at all and I haven’t been tracking calories, but I felt like my eating plan was still more or less helping me out, with some additional treats because it is my birthday after all. Turns out I’ve regained every pound I lost with an extra one for good luck. I still like the plan I was on; I was never hungry and enjoyed the food and some treats, and the activity wasn’t arduous. I just feel like, eventually I’m going to stop calorie counting, so how do I keep up the motivation to remain organised in my approach? I feel like I just need to be patient, not overreact and lean even harder into moderation but I wonder if anyone else has ever felt torn between the two overreacting options: A) Give Up or B) Diet Harder.

    1. Sloanicota*

      This stinks, I’m sorry. I guess it depends on your goals. I work hard not to think about size or weight at all, given how sick our culture is, so I don’t weigh myself, and I just have the goal not to need to buy myself a bigger wardrobe – but I’m quite focused on trying to Eat Better. This allows me to pick one thing and focus on it, like, just eat more fruit, that’s it, that’s the whole goal, or just eat more fiber once you’ve got the fruit habit down, or just move your body more in a healthy way more. That way, I *know* I’m doing a good job – and it’s not dependent on the scale / way my clothes fit, which can seem very random and uncontrollable. But if you’re truly trying to shed pounds I’m not sure there’s a low-key way to do it consistently that doesn’t stink a little.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      I think it’s really good to focus on a) How do you feel? and b) How do your clothes fit?

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Those are pretty nice metrics! I’m actually doing pretty well on both fronts. Even with my cold, I’m pretty pleased with the way I’m fighting it off. I’m also not in “argh need new wardrobe” danger, either, which can be an expensive problem. Everything fits.

    3. WellRed*

      I think the nutritionist was spot on with his advice. It helps to focus on short term victories while remembering you are playing the long game. Focus on eating well and not overeating, moving your body and not giving up because you didn’t lose a pound since the last week (or whatever). I don’t weigh myself more than once a week.

    4. Turtle Dove*

      I’ve been struggling with similar frustration recently and chatted with a friend who’s struggling too. It’s probably hitting us now as a combo of holiday weight gain and shaky New Year’s resolutions. We agreed that we’re giving it too much head space, and it’s time to relax and be kind to ourselves. That doesn’t mean giving up; it means not beating ourselves up. So I did that, and voila! I’m already feeling better. I fall into two traps when I’m stressed: skip exercise and eat mindlessly. So I’m trying just a little harder in those two areas. I motivate myself, after much trial and error, by remembering how proud and positive I feel after I exercise and after I stop eating because I’m full. I agree that slow progress is best. It’s the only thing that’s ever worked for me.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I have never been able to stay motivated continuously about anything. I just have to go back and re-start.

      But for encouragement, if you lost 3-5 pounds (or more) before and it has only been 1 week off, you are probably retaining a lot of water rather than having regained all the fat so quickly. Check again next week, it will probably even out a bit.

    6. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      I would never recommend a diet book but Judith Beck’s stuff on CBT approaches to restricted diets was helpful for me when I’ve had to change what I’m eating. Just ignore the stuff in it you don’t like (it’s very uncritical of diet culture).

    7. Another username forgotten*

      I focus less on the scales and more on how my clothes fit. I’ve had weeks where I feel clunky and am convinced I’ve gained weight but the scales say I’ve lost it.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        I’ve definitely done that in the past, but this is very gradual weight that I’ve put on over time, and I also am great at buying clothes that allow for weight fluctuations. I can’t really tell from clothes alone, like I used to

    8. ccsquared*

      I’m getting a lot of mileage on focusing more on the habits and my environment rather than the scale. This IS frustrating if you are used to intense diets and steady progress, so what I’ve found helpful is to look for additional results for my efforts, such as:
      – wow, my skin really perks up after I drink that glass of water in the morning
      – it’s so nice that I’m not drenched in sweat and taking my inhaler after sprinting for the bus. Those daily walks must be making me more fit
      – I love that when I stop eating when I’m full, I don’t feel uncomfortable after a meal and can focus on other things I enjoy.

      If you really are a numbers person, maybe get a fitness tracker and look at some of the other stats like resting heart rate or deep sleep, or a tape measure and track your waist to hip ratio. Also, I have a scale that calculates body fat percentage, which can be really helpful in interpreting weight gain or loss to evaluate my habits. If I see a 2 lb gain but body fat % drops, I know that usually means water retention from a temporary increase of salt and/or carbs – common when I’m sick or celebrating – and it’s going to go away as quick as it came once I resume my normal habits. Conversely, if my weight drops but body fat stays the same and it isn’t after a change in what I’m eating, I check in on my exercise and hydration habits, rather than thinking of it as automatic progress.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah I thought my smart watch would be great at measuring fat/muscle ratio, but it never changes one iota, not even when I can see more muscle definition, or other people notice.

    9. HannahS*

      This is going to be longer than it needs to be but I’m gonna type out my thoughts and we’ll see where we wind up.
      So, a few years ago I had gained a fair amount of weight (stress + health problems + being too sedentary) and said, “I don’t like this; I don’t like how I feel, I don’t like how I look, and I know that this isn’t good for me” I used a free fitness tracker/calorie counter for about, I don’t know, eight months? And it worked. But I also knew that calorie counting was, for me, deeply unhealthy and not something that I could do long-term.

      What I got out of that period that was helpful was this:
      1. I now have a better sense of reasonable portion size. It helped me understand how deeply psychological and emotional food is, and it helped me get a feel for how much I actually need to nourish my body, versus what I thought I needed to feel “full.”
      2. It forced me to be more active, a habit that I have (mostly) continued.
      3. My palate changed. I started liking my food less sweet and less rich, and I started enjoying things that I hadn’t liked before.

      I have the following attitude towards weight/body shape/diet/exercise:
      -I am a woman of childbearing age who is, in fact, bearing children. My weight fluctuates over the course of the month and also year by year. Many men have one adult weight that they maintain, but that’s not realistic for people like me. So I don’t try.
      -I don’t own a scale. It’s not good for me, personally, to own a scale. My goal isn’t actually to lose weight, anyway, because I’m hoping to gain muscle. So I keep track of how my clothes fit, and that’s good enough for me.
      -There are lots of different philosophies and relationships towards food. I didn’t like the relationship I had with food and my body, but a lot of the American food/body movements don’t really speak to me, either. I read a lot about how different cultures think about food and eating, and found some things that really resonated with me. That helped.
      -Yes, I have felt how you feel, for sure, and I try to remind myself that I’m playing the long game. For me, I had to let go of REACH THE GOAL WEIGHT, HURRAY! I want to be someone who feels strong, exercises regularly, has less back pain, and eats well and in moderation.

    10. goddessoftransitory*

      I’ve found that the best long term tip I actually used was: do you want to spend calories on this?

      I don’t calorie count, never have. But when I encounter some unexpected food (say, cookies at work) or I’m out and about and pass a burger place, I can ask myself: am I really hungry enough to eat this? Do I really want it or is it just because it’s in front of me?

      This has helped me avoid stuff I don’t especially like in the first place (like, say, Oreos) but may have grabbed a few because they were there, or eating because it’s Time To Eat. For instance, at work, none of the pizzas ordered for the crew appealed to me, so I didn’t bother to get a slice. I’ve already had lunch and don’t really want one.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Hah, you’ve just made me realise how really lucky I am in one respect: I never really encounter food in the wild because I’m a gluten free person. I pack food for myself in the morning so wherever I go, I’m not dependent on what food people can provide me with. I’ve stopped even seeing that stuff as “for me”. People can get out really pretty cupcakes at work, and to me it’s like I’m seeing those dog brownies which are decorated to look like people food.

    11. Harriet J*

      I’m so sorry that you are going through this. I’ve been there (as have many of us).
      For some people, changes in diet and exercise is enough. But just as depression and anxiety are caused by a chemical imbalance, so is excess weight for some.
      Back in 2021 I started working with an endocrinologist who put me on two medications – an appetite suppressant and another to help speed up my metabolism. (Not Wegovy or Ozempic – my insurance wouldn’t cover those.)
      Appetite suppressants make a real difference – I still remember walking past piles of Halloween candy in the store and not being tempted for the first time of my life!
      My appetite has certainly changed and I eat more reasonable portions. I’ve also increased my cardio workouts.
      Over two years later I have lost over 80 pounds and am being tapered off the medications. The goal is to learn how to maintain my weight loss without the medications.
      I take medication for depression because of a chemical imbalance. My eating habits were also fueled by a chemical imbalance that had me thinking that I was always hungry. I needed medical intervention to break that cycle.
      Some of my eating habits were emotional so I worked with a therapist to deal with that.
      Good luck in your journey.

    12. Dancing Otter*

      First, I agree with whoever said part of your gain is probably water retention. Every pound of fat represents about 3500 excess calories. That would be a LOT of birthday cake.

      I’m kind of in your same situation right now. Having finally gotten my knee replacement after losing a lot of weight over several years, I just discovered that I’m up ten pounds after two weeks of institutional food and reduced activity. Kind of praying that a lot of it is because my leg is swollen, but I definitely need to get back on plan.

      I try to think of having overindulged (chips! chocolate!) like having forgotten my prescription yesterday. I wouldn’t take an extra dose the next day, just get back on schedule. So I don’t try to make up for the excess calories, just go back to my planned meals.
      Similarly, if I’m only a few hours late, it might be worth taking the medicine late; I might cut back on dinner if I ate too much earlier in the day.
      But if by “Diet Harder” you mean cutting down to less than 1000 calories for more than a day, absolutely not. It always backfires.

      My veterinarian, of all people, once gave me really good advice. Feed a fat cat according to the weight they ought to be. Kitty may not lose fast, but he *will* reach a healthier weight gradually. So, if my (interim) goal is XXX pounds, how many calories does a moderately sedentary XXX-pound woman need? If I’m not happy with my loss rate, can I burn a few more calories or up my metabolism by being a bit more active?

  29. New Novelist*

    Any resources for a fiction writer trying to find an agent and get published for the first time? I’d like advice on how to write a query letter, querying etiquette, and other advice for my manuscript and the rest of the process. If there was a blog just like AAM but for publishing a novel, I’d be all over it!

    1. Sloanicota*

      QueryShark. Also, I hear good things about “the Sh*t Nobody Tells You About Writing” (which is industry based and seems to have a community element also).

    2. Deuce of Gears*

      This may be less helpful depending on your genre/target audience, but SFWA (for sf/f/h) does have some resources on querying and finding agents that apply generally. Google “SFWA information center” – I’ll drop the link in another reply. If you have money to burn, a subscription to Publishers Marketplace lets you search agents, who they represent, and their deals, which can be useful data but may be overkill at this stage. Good luck with your journey!

    3. Tiny Clay Insects*

      The Manuscript Academy podcast was super helpful to me! It’s free and there a zillion episodes. They also have some paid resources where you can have an agent or editor talk thru your query letter with you, to make it stronger, and I found that helpful.

    4. Maryn*

      I second QueryShark and raise you AbsoluteWrite.com/Forums. (Transparency: I moderate there.) The members share what they know, instruct on and critique query letters, vet potential agents and publishers, and lots more. You can read without joining.

  30. LynnP*

    I recently completed a knitted sweater and it took quite a while. I lost weight during the many months of knitting and the sweater now is so big it looks sloppy. I’ve never worn it but I did wash it.
    Has anyone successfully taken a knitted garment in? If I can’t resize it I’ll take it apart and reuse the yarn.

    1. Usually Lurking*

      I have! It very much depends on the yarn used, where the alteration needs to happen and the busyness of the pattern, but I once altered a very busy/multiple yarns/some fuzzy and fluffy by just sewing it on the sewing machine as I would a shirt that was too big through the waist and hips.
      I fear that a less busy sweater, or adjustments including the shoulders, would require starting over.
      I’d call your local yarn shop (or, really, ANY local yarn shop!) and ask what they think!

      1. Accidental Itenerate Teacher*

        I have seen this work on a non-busy sweater as well.
        So if its just something simple like taking it in on the sides you should be able to do it with a sewing machine- just use a stitch length that catches all the yarn so you don’t wind up with unraveling if you trim away excess

        1. Crocheted familiar*

          With the caveat that I’m applying sewing principles to knitting without having applied these sewing principles to knitting (both have remained separate for me so far): I imagine zigzagging over the edge with a fairly dense stitch should also help catch the yarn and hold it in place, if you need to take out enough that trimming the seam allowance becomes necessary or you want the extra assurance. I’d do it first, a little into the seam allowance, and then cut next to the zigzag edge (just make sure you don’t cut *through* the zigzag stitches!). Another might be two lines of stitches, like in high-stress areas of garments, to help the first line out and catch additional fraying/unravelling yarn before it hits the actual seam.

          1. Another sewer*

            Overlocker/sergers, if you can get access to one. Or ideally know someone has one and already knows how to use it who can do it for you. A serger will work better than a sewing machine because it will cut off the correct amount of excess while encasing the seam in wrap-around loops of thread. So none of the yarn strands should come undone.
            Similar to the sewing zigzag advice above, but it only has to go through the serger once and the yarn won’t have a chance to unravel.

    2. Once too Often*

      Sounds like a great reason to visit your local yarn shop if you have one. (Our small city has 3.). They’ll have ideas about how the yarn is likely to behave in different scenarios, how trimming & stitching is likely to affect drape, etc.

    3. Maotseduck*

      I have this same problem. I spent 9 months knitting a sweater but now it’s huge on me. My plan is to ask my LYS for help, as one of the owners seems to know everything knitting and the other is a master at sewing. I’m sure between the two they can fix me up. I’m not brave enough to do it myself even though it seems fairly straightforward.

    4. office hobbit*

      Definitely talk to a yarn shop. If you decide to use a sewing machine, look up the concepts behind steeking before you start.

  31. RussianInTexas*

    Another reading thread!
    What highly recommend books just did not work for you? I’ll start.
    Wicked, by Gregory Maguire. I hated every page of this book, and only finished it out of stubbornness.
    Wolf Hall, by Hilary Mantel. This one was upsetting, because I love everything Tudor, but her writing style completely turned me off and I did not even finish the book.
    The Night Circus, by Erin Morgenstern. It was just meh. I finished this book with the feeling of vague disappointment.

    1. WellRed*

      The Maidens by Alex Michaelides. Twenty five years after the Secret History people are still trying to find its successor and thus was ruined as such. It was bad all around to the point I will never read anything else of his.

    2. Turtle Dove*

      I just could not with The Da Vinci Code. Maybe I don’t like that style, but I found it poorly written and predictable. I groaned and muttered out loud before quitting not far in.

      I also disliked Where The Crawdads Sing and didn’t finish it. I enjoy dialog and dislike long descriptions of setting, so it wasn’t to my taste. And I probably wasn’t feeling up to all the darkness. I have to be in the right mood for that.

    3. Fellow Traveller*

      Gone Girl. Hate read it til 3am. What a bunch of terrible people.
      Spoiler
      .
      .
      .
      .
      Unreliable narrators are my least favorite trope.
      Had the same issue with The Silent Patient.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        There was a book I just read that annoyed me in the end. It started as a murder mystery, and by the middle you figure out there is either unreliable narrator with mental illness or some supernatural element in play, and it ended up being the supernatural element. Which annoyed me, because I rarely like the supernatural genre and would like to know that is what I am going in.

        1. Fellow Traveller*

          OMG- yes! Supernatural elements always seem like a cop out unless you know from the start. Mexican Gothic was like that for me. The Mushrooms!?! Seriously?!?!

          1. RussianInTexas*

            This book included the main character having a very strained relationship with her mother, which was explained, in the last 5% of the book by the mother pledging the child to a djinn, if she conceives, and therefore was always afraid of her daughter. And while there attempted murders of the heroine were explained by the earthy reasons, the same djinn protected her. What? There was no djinn anywhere for the first 80% of the book!

          2. goddessoftransitory*

            Oh, me too! Didn’t like The Daughter of Doctor Moreau for much the same reasons (although it’s Science, not Magic, that steps in from the wings whenever the plot needs untangling.)

      2. CTT*

        That’s a book that I think works MUCH better as a movie. Like, the “cool girl” speech in the book felt dangerously try-hard, but Rosamund Pike’s steely annoyance-turning-to-anger when delivering it is just *chef’s kiss*.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I agree–the book basically was trying to be a movie, I think, and had a bunch of internal monologues where watching the character do whatever was more effective.

          1. Sloanicota*

            It’s interesting to note that the author went to Hollywood after that book and did not (as far as I know) try another novel. So perhaps she kind of agrees with you!

    4. Not A Manager*

      I tried all three of the books that you mentioned, @RussianInTexas, and I didn’t finish any of them. Didn’t get past the first few chapters.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        I usually trip on the writing style more than a story or characters. I figured out over the year that I like a simple style that gets to the point.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I disliked all three of your examples, yep. Also Hench, by Natalie Zina Walschots.

      I don’t know about highly recommended, but I usually love memoirs and deleted Billy Crystal’s from my Kindle within 5 pages because I was already tired of jokes about his genitals.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        The reference to a classic comedian jogged my memory.

        RoseMarie wrote a memoir years ago, and it was fascinating! No idea why a movie hasn’t been made about her life, especially her early life.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          When RoseMarie passed, her daughter had a massive online estate sale. I have a teabag holder that belonged to her. It’s small white ceramic and shaped like a pear. <3

        2. Chaordic One*

          Rose Marie’s autobiography, “Hold the Roses,” was published back in 2002. A documentary film, “Wait for Your Laugh,” about her life was released in 2017 shortly before her death and received good reviews. It features interviews with her and several of her co-stars and the show-biz people she worked with. Is is available on several streaming services including Amazon Prime and Apple TV. Finally, who can forget the widely reprinted guest column she wrote that first appeared in the 2017 Women in Entertainment Power 100 issue of The Hollywood Reporter magazine a couple of weeks before her death.

    6. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      Any A.S. Byatt, particularly Possession. Honestly I love what she is doing on paper, but on practice it absolutely doesn’t work for me. A.M. Holmes – more initials! – I found miserable to read and gave up on all her stuff.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I love Byatt, but compare reading her to going on a vigorous, uphill hike with a scientist that keeps telling you all the Latin names of the plants and animals you spot.

          That said, I didn’t really enjoy Villette until I read the edition with a Foreword by her and another writer that intrigued me endlessly.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              Oh, my copy’s at home (I’m at work right now) so I’ll try to remember to post tonight!

    7. Come On Eileen*

      Demon Copperhead. SOOO many people loved it and recommended it, and I just found it so bleak that I had to stop reading. I asked people if it got brighter, some said yes and some said not really. So I bailed.

      1. Rachel*

        I read the whole thing.

        I found the author used The Magical Black person trope. I haven’t seen a lot of criticism about this so it might just be me, but it really felt like the Black teacher character was a Choice

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      Under the Whispering Door. (I loved House on the Cerulean Sea by the same author.) I loved the tea shop, but at the halfway point the stuff described in the front cover blurb still hadn’t happened.

    9. JJax*

      I recently read the first three books in The Expanse series and could not bring myself to continue. Honestly, I disliked even the first book enough that I almost stopped there but wanted to give the series a fair shake because I love sci fi and everyone I knew was raving about it.

      These are all just my opinions, of course. But I disliked the lack of character growth/arc in all three books – the few character details we know about each member of the cast tend to define them and solidify further over the first three books, rather than growing and evolving as new challenges arise. I also thought the plot points were really sloppy in a “this thing happened then this thing happened then this thing happened” way. I prefer a book that has a central story but slowly unfolds it and reveals the complexities of that story throughout the work. The Expanse felt like a basic action movie instead “set piece happens because plot needs to progress until the next set piece”.

      It wasn’t the worst sci fi series I’ve read, but it really turned me off and I don’t really get the hype around it. It just felt very pulp-y, which is not my favourite genre.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I really enjoyed the TV series, for the exact opposite reasons; there, you could see the characters growing and changing in response to things. When a certain character didn’t, you could see that it was because he’d boxed himself into a corner and his followers were not going to look kindly on him changing his mind on his policies.

        1. Clara Bowe*

          +1 Yeah, I couldn’t continue the book series. It just kept changing the genre it wanted to be and I just didn’t want to deal with it. The tv series did a solid job of balancing stuff out. Plus, the casting was god tier.

    10. Charlotte Lucas*

      Well, it’s been over 30 years, so I think I ‘m fine with the fact that I was never able to finish D.H. Lawrence’s Sons and Lovers as part of my grad school reading list. (Still like his poetry, though.)

      I only got about halfway through Eugenides’ Middlesex. I found the historical backstory interesting then didn’t like the first person narrator.

      I tapped out on page 37 of Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. Decided to read some actual Austen instead. She had already written a great send-up of gothic novels. She definitely could have done way better with zombies.

      While I have enjoyed Stephen King’s shirt stories and nonfiction, I can’t get into his novels.

      I have read The Great Gatsby more than once for classes. The best thing about it is that it’s short, so you don’t waste too much time reading it.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Oh! While I read (and loved!) most of The Chronicles of Narnia as a kid, I was never able to really get into The Silver Chair and left it unfinished to reread my faves.

        1. The OG Sleepless*

          That was my least favorite one. Partly because the setting was so bleak. After the lovely setting of Narnia itself in the first two books, and the sea voyage in the third, suddenly we’re just plodding across the moors. Plus the characters are doing everything they were expressly told not to do, and can’t believe it when everything goes wrong.

          2. goddessoftransitory*

            Oh, yeah:

            “Don’t touch that.”

            *Character touches that* *ruin ensues*

            Character BUT WHY THOOOOOOOUGH

        2. Sloanicota*

          That’s “Northanger Abbey” … which I confess is my least favorite of hers. Persuasion and Mansfield Park, interestingly, which I disliked as a younger woman, have become my favorites in later age, over Emma, S&S and even P&P which however remains in a nostalgic space in my heart.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            I really love Mansfield Park. Austen’s selecting of a shy, inhibited heroine who doesn’t “blossom” into a belle of the ball is so great, and her precise description of Fanny’s upbringing shows why that is.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          Oh, now you come to mention it, I did notice something along those lines when I read it. I thought it was somewhere between a send-up of silly pulp romances, and a defence of novels in general, but it’s been ages. Like Sloanicota it’s not a favourite; I might have picked up on the gothic thing if I’d read it over and over like P&P. Perhaps I need to take another look.

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            It’s both a defense of novels and poking gentle fun at the genre.

            In The Jane Austen Book Club (loved the book, hated the movie), Karen Joy Fowler points out that it follows the plot outline of The Castle of Otranto.

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        I really like King’s short fiction; he gets to his point a lot better. But his latest novels are really good–I loved Fairy Tale. Husband, on the other hand, likes his older novels but not his newest.

    11. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Cosign Wicked. I didn’t finish it. Also cosign Gone Girl, mentioned below, which I finished because I had to know what happened even though it irritated me no end. Will never read another of hers.

      More recently The Midnight Library, which I read for book club. I thought it was predictable and sappy.

      In the realm of “classics,” pretty much anything by Hemingway except his short stories. Hate them all. Same book club read “The Paris Wife” and we all liked it (me included – he didn’t write it). We decided to read “A Moveable Feast” as a follow-up and I figured I’d try it since it’s non-fiction. Hated it even more than I hate his fiction. Never again.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Hemingway is great with sentence structure and lousy at character development or telling a story. There, I said it.

        In a lit class in college, I was amazed that anyone was surprised at the “twist” ending of “The Short, Happy Life of Francis Macomber.”

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Ugh, I remember reading Dorothy Parker’s book reviews/rants about how Hemingway had ruined short fiction because everybody and his brother suddenly started aping his style and none of them had the grasp he did on language to pull it off.

        2. Chaordic One*

          I concur with your assessment of Hemingway. I hated the stories and could not relate to the characters at all. As time as passed, I have come to be aware that they are, in fact, beautifully written even if the stories are lacking. Yes, the use of language and sentence structure is great.

      2. Lilo*

        I haaated Midnight Library because it’s such a bad take on mental illness. As someone with a family member who struggles with mental health issues, I was just so frustrated by the lack of understanding on mental health and idea that positivity can overcome them.

      3. Fellow Traveller*

        I did not enjoy Midnight Library either. Thought it was a little prescriptive and unoriginal.
        I though Haig’s How to Stop Time was a much better take on a similar idea of “How to live your one life.”

      4. Decidedly Me*

        Me too for The Midnight Library. I was so excited to read it, but really didn’t like it. The overall premise is interesting, but how it played out didn’t make sense to me.

      5. Still*

        Ditto on Midnight Library. I feel like it presented an interesting problem of having to make peace with the fact that maybe you’ve made some wrong choices and that your life could have turned out differently… and then it dealt with it by saying “just kidding, all those lives would have sucked even worse!” It felt like a mediocre self-help book parading around as a novel.

    12. Tiny Clay Insects*

      I hated The Grapes of Wrath. I was so bored.

      I also was just talking about how back in the 90s several people recommended Geek Love (about a family of sideshow performers) and though I made two attempts, I could never finish it. It was way too disturbing. I still shudder thinking about it.

      Also my husband, who I am chatting with as I type, would like me to very emphatically add For Whom the Bell Tolls. He is still very angry about how much he hates Hemingway.

    13. Charlotte Lucas*

      I’ve read exactly one Jodi Picoult novel, and I did finish to see how it ended. (She didn’t surprise me by not surprising me, even though it was a mystery. Kind of.)

      I was so angry that the book existed that I threw it across the room. (Possibly the smug tone of her follow-up notes had something to do with that. I read them to see what on earth she had been thinking.)

      So, no more Picoult for me.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        I almost threw a book at the wall once, only stopped by the book being an expensive Kindle. It was a mystery written by a British writer, set in Galveston, TX, and it was obvious that the writer’s research was…let’s say, deficient. There were multiple errors, but the two that made me mad were:
        1. Martin character walked a mile in the incoming 4ft storm surge.
        2. A category 4 hurricane, hits Galveston head on, and instead of doing what these hurricanes ALWAYS do, for the reason of physics and meteorology, it turns around, goes back into the Gulf, and dissapates. WHAT.

      2. Dark Macadamia*

        Haaaaate Jodi Picoult lol. I read one of her books out of actual interest and one because someone gifted it to me. Both awful

        1. WellRed*

          Driv, along with Anita Shreve. I’ll never get back the time I spent on her wedding in December nonsense.

    14. Nessness*

      I have a few:
      – Where the Crawdads Sing. I thought the writing was terrible and the main character was not believable at all.
      – Fleishman is in Trouble. I was really intrigued by the story, but there were waaay more graphic s*x scenes than I wanted to read so I quit halfway through.
      – Lessons in Chemistry. As a scientist, former rower, and mom, this book should have been right up my alley ,(and was recommended to me as such), but I couldn’t stand it.

      1. Turtle Dove*

        I haven’t read Lessons in Chemistry yet but plan to. After all the hype, I’m expecting a book with rainbows shining out of its rear end. But I often read reactions like yours too. I’m curious to see.

      2. Annie Edison*

        Oh my gosh I hated Where the Crawdads Sing so much! The ending drove me absolutely crazy. I cannot understand all the hype

      3. fueled by coffee*

        Oh my god I couldn’t finish Lessons in Chemistry. I can’t stand “girl power” books that fundamentally misunderstand the structural nature of sexism.

        The scene where she is bad at rowing, reads a physics book, and is suddenly amazing at rowing nearly did me in.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Wow, I only have to read physics to suddenly gain muscle/arm and leg strength? No one told me!

          1. Nessness*

            Yep! Even if you’re a woman who’s only been in a boat twice, apparently all you need to do is understand the physics and you’ll be able to keep up with elite male rowers! Actually, you’ll be so good that they’ll beg you to come back after you quit!

      4. Girasol*

        I couldn’t get into Crawdads either. The movie was kind of okay, but while I usually prefer the book I just couldn’t read that one.

      5. shteripecas*

        I finished lessons in chemistry, but really didn’t like it. Like, the only way we can show power and sexism in a hard science is to have a rape scene? Really? As an old(er) woman in physics, none of that book passed the sniff test.

    15. Venetia Hall*

      I just could NOT get through Love In The Time Of Cholera. I tried many times, over more than a decade, but just did not care what happened to the characters.

      1. Clisby*

        I couldn’t either. And it’s not because I don’t like the author’s writing. I loved One Hundred Years of Solitude.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        Oh, yeah. Marquez is a writer I should love based on my general tastes, but I simply cannot get through his stuff. Same with Isabelle Allende. Magical realism, for me, has to have a very precise tone or it just doesn’t work. (And I’m not saying they aren’t accomplished writers, at all! I just can’t “hear” what they’re singing, so to speak.)

    16. Sloanicota*

      This is idiosyncratic I know, but I *hated* both House on the Cerulean Sea and Every Heart a Doorway, which I read back to back, because I could not get over the twee, smuggish narrative voice. Maybe if I had spaced them out it would not have struck me too much. People love those books! I don’t know what my problem is.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        Oh, I was going to post Cerulean Sea too but I had totally forgotten about Doorway. I feel the same about both! They seem really beloved here but they’re so cutesy it hurts and don’t have a lot of depth (I don’t need everything to be Literary and Meaningful but I want to like, feel something and connect with someone, you know?).

        1. Sloanicota*

          Agree that they both felt like middlegrade or very young YA to me, which makes more sense for Doorway (but I didn’t know that about it when I picked it up) and less sense for Cerulean which is in theory about adults in the working world.

      2. AGD*

        I didn’t like either of these. Every Heart a Doorway relied on gore to such an extent that it overwhelmed everything else the book was trying to be about, which is a shame as some of it would have had interesting nuance. I didn’t hate The House in the Cerulean Sea but it kind of just left me going, “uh, okay?”

        1. carcinization*

          Wow, I don’t remember any gore at all in that book! It’s next month’s selection for the book club I’m in so I guess upon re-read I will see how much I excised from my memory!

    17. Retired Accountant*

      SO MANY

      I will try to summarize. I’ve been thinking about this, and have been realizing that I like books with vibrant characters, characters that pop. So many of my “popular books that I hate category” fall into the “boring characters that have semi-interesting things happen to them”. Where the Crawdads Sing falls into this category. Sadly, so did Babel. I thought the characters were just flat. Also it was too long.

      Related is much popular historical fiction. It comes off to me that the author, despite doing much research, can’t get how people actually sounded at the time and the characters end up sounding generic. Marie Benedict is an example. I’ve read and disliked several of her books (thanks book club). One of her books was about the Mitford sisters. They were, among other things, women with personality. I read and loved Nancy Mitford’s Radlett novels, and have read quite a bit about the sisters. In Benedict’s book they were just boring.

      Also historical fiction with modern sensibilities injected. “Revolutionary War setting but with more girl power!” I’d rather read something from the time period, warts and all, or read an author who can pull this off.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        I haaaate “History but with the completely modern woman character, she is so modern, you see!!!” trope. No, a heroine in the Victorian times will not have free sexual relationships with whom she wants, without repercussions. Or refuse to marry because it’s so old fashioned, without societal repercussions and consequences.

        1. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

          I’m with you. There was some Sherlock Holmes’s little sister YA book someone got me where I kept reading out of a sense of obligation, but it all just felt too Mary Sue-ish for me. Well if *I* were a teen in Victorian London cut off from my whole family, *I* would have . . . . ugh.

          On the other hand, I like things with spunky female characters written at the time — Wilkie Collins has some good characters like Valeria Woodville in *The Law and the Lady* and Marian Halcombe in *The Woman in White* who are resolute and adventurous while still dealing with the realities of their time period.

          One modern author who I think does a nice job of writing women in the Victorian era in a way that acknowledges their societal realities is Sarah Waters.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          Like, I wouldn’t mind a book about that IF there’s repercussions! And not “one crusty old uncle disapproves but comes around and leaves her a fortune.” Real, permanent consequences.

          It’s not like there weren’t any interesting Victorian women doing interesting things in the real world. Who did defy convention and become explorers or whatever. But it wasn’t all fun and games, at all.

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        It’s plot for me. Stuff has to happen. I like it to successfully put up a veneer of happening because the characters make choices that make sense for them, but if you offer me generic characters doing stuff vs beautifully wrought characters experiencing angst, I’m going with the first every time.

        Waaaaaay back when Harry Potter was just starting to be a Thing, in the 90s, I remember reading a piece in the Boston Globe about parents stealing their kids’ copies, and explaining how they were hungry for a book with a plot. (The New Yorker’s fiction is the sine qua non for me of stuff that is well composed but nothing of interest happens, and I feel like a lot of non-genre fiction at the time tended to reflect that.)

        1. Angstrom*

          John D. MacDonald said “Story is something happening to someone you have been led to care about.” That explains why some books don’t work for me — i just dont care about the characters.
          Agree about New Yorker-style fiction — too many seem to be an extended conversation dripping with subtext that ends with someone disappearing down the driveway. Moody, but nothing actually *happens*.
          O. Henry is a fine antidote: you can get setup, conflict and resolution in just a few pages. That may also be why I like old hardboiled detective short stories. The writing may not be polished, but there’s never a dull moment. :-)

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            Yes, I also need a character I root for. It’s why I prefer Better Call Saul to Breaking Bad–I really rooted for Kim, Mike, Jimmy, and Nacho.

            1. Clisby*

              My son keeps telling me I should watch Better Call Saul. My husband and I decided to watch Breaking Bad, and made it through 3 episodes before deciding, “No. We couldn’t care less what happens to any of these awful people.”

              Conversely, we loved The Wire. Sure, there were still a lot of awful people but they actually were interesting awful people instead of being the one-two-punch of awful + boring as hell.

              1. Falling Diphthong*

                As someone who didn’t make it through Breaking Bad, I wound up adoring Better Call Saul. Rewatched with my husband (who didn’t like Breaking Bad because science teachers shouldn’t turn into monsters), who also was impressed by it. It’s just really well done storytelling–the sort where even if this isn’t your usual genre, it’s compelling–and absolutely nailed the last season, with a brilliant turn by Carol Burnett that I think no one saw coming. So I would recommend giving Saul a few episodes to see if the more likable characters draw you in.

                I just couldn’t get into The Wire. I loved the criminal half of the show, especially how it showed this society having rules and boundaries just as strict as those outside; was bored by the heavy tropes of the police procedurals. (I don’t even watch police procedurals, but accurately predicted each plot turn. And not in a “Yeah, that’s the unfolding tragedy of it all” way.)

                2. Falling Diphthong*

                  We had seen half of Season 1 of Breaking Bad. Not seeing any BB would have been fine. I can specifically state that I was tickled to death by the sudden plot explosion of what I thought was a side character–had I watched all of BB I would have recognized this person.

                  There’s another layer to the show when you catch all the references to things that would later happen in BB. But it’s like there’s another layer if you know the story this movie is referencing, but it can be a great compelling story without that layer.

            2. Cedrus Libani*

              I can deal with unsympathetic, but the one thing that will make me nope out every time is passivity. How am I supposed to care about what happens to the character(s) if there’s little to no sign that they care about what happens to themselves? Say what you will about Walter White as a human being, he did NOT go gentle into that good night, he saw opportunities and he took them.

          3. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

            That’s a great point about detective stories — maybe that’s why I love them too!

          4. goddessoftransitory*

            The best detective stories have gorgeous writing–Ross McDonald is fantastic with metaphor, and it really enhances his weird, moody mystery stories. But he’s also great on plot–he doesn’t just drop plot lines, like in the famous example by Raymond Chandler (when someone asked him who had killed the chauffeur in a novel, Chandler said “oh, him. I forgot all about him.”)

            (He also is one of the few writers that could conceive of POC characters as actual people with motivations and thoughts, not signposts or props.)

            1. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

              Indeed! I’ll have to check Ross McDonald out. Alas, I’ve never gotten to him.

              My favorite from an enjoying-the-writing perspective is Rex Stout’s Nero Wolfe . When I was young and reading them for the first time, I didn’t notice all of the subtle verbal jousting that Archie Goodwin does with, well, everyone and how Stout will quietly weave a theme throughout a scene or multiple scenes . Now, I love seeing those details as I re-read. I can re-read almost any of those books countless times. Stout is also at least aware of issues of racism and xenophobia and addresses them head on at times, though his handling of POC characters can be a bit clumsy.

              And yeah, I love *The Big Sleep* as a movie, but I could never get into Chandler when I tried to read his stuff.

    18. My Brain is Exploding*

      Crazy Horse, by Mari Sandoz. It was a book for my book club. I didn’t read the whole thing. I wanted to like this book because we and extended family members have lived in Nebraska and South Dakota. But I just didn’t find it written in a way that was interesting to me.

    19. vombatus ursinus*

      Aw, I really liked both Wicked and Wolf Hall, sorry to hear they didn’t work for you! But agree on The Night Circus — it came so highly recommended and I really didn’t get into it.

      I started making a list and came up with two possible general insights into myself as regards reading:

      1) Most books on the list have come recommended or gifted by other people, so perhaps I should just trust my own instincts more when choosing what to read …

      2) I think I can appreciate and understand intellectually that a lot of people find tropes and predictability in a narrative enjoyable or comforting, but it often really irritates me if I can guess what’s going to happen or if the characters feel like archetypes. One of my favourite genres is actually retellings or reinterpretations of folk tales and myths, which seems weird juxtaposed with the above, but I guess what I like is how this style plays with and subverts those tropes and archetypes (Wicked is actually an example!).

      FWIW, my list would also include Where the Crawdads Sing, The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue, This is How You Lose the Time War, The House in the Cerulean Sea, and basically any romance novel I’ve ever read.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        I really wanted to like Wolf Hall and really liked the miniseries based on it, but for some reason her writing style just didn’t clock for me.

    20. Annie Edison*

      Every Heart a Doorway. So many people here recommended it and I loved the premise, but then all of a sudden it was a murder mystery? And then it got so graphic and dark and I was not expecting any of that. I’m still kind of bitter and haunted by it

    21. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

      I know it won a Pulitzer and all, but I had a very fraught relationship with *A Visit from the Goon Squad*. Like, the author is indeed super talented and pegged our current technology nightmarish trajectory accurately, but, oy, there was SO much sexual assault of young women in that book. And there is an unnecessary “sad bi character who can’t find true love and comes to a tragic end” part. Could we just not stereotype so much, please? Can we please find another reason for this person to be unhappy?

      I enjoyed the sequel, *Candy House*, much more.

    22. Dark Macadamia*

      It took three or four tries to get through Catch-22 because people kept telling me the ending totally makes the book. It did not.

      Remarkably Bright Creatures was soooo boring and the characters were terrible. Yes, including the octopus.

      Wasn’t a fan of Gone Girl or Sharp Objects. “Oh, the big twist is that the awful people are more awful than you thought!” Cool.

    23. SBT*

      Same on Wicked.

      Most recently I tried The Covenant of Water and just, cannot get into it. I also gave up halfway on The Island of Missing Trees.

      I always feel somewhat guilty when these highly popular books don’t work for me. Like, what am I missing??!

      1. WellRed*

        Not sure you’re missing anything so much as maybe the masses don’t want to admit they don’t get it either.

        1. Phryne*

          That is a really weird interpretation. Tastes differ, that is a good thing actually. No need to be condescending about people enjoying something.

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        Everyone has different tastes and different things that speak to them, and that’s a good thing.

        I love reading and watching movies and TV, and I have a wide range of genres I enjoy. And I love recommending things. But I also know that telling my sister, who enjoys biographies, history, and mysteries, but not SF, weird fiction, or horror, won’t thank me for recommending A. S. Byatt or Terry Pratchett. So I save those recommendations for the friends and family who do like those things.

    24. LB33*

      Focault’s Pendulum by Umberto Eco, and anything I tried reading by James Joyce – both highly recmmmended but just couldn’t get through them

    25. Phryne*

      An oldie: The Da Vinci Code. It was so over hyped and in hindsight reading it fresh out of Umberto Eco’s Foucaults Pendulum was not the best timing. I thought the story was dumb and the main character was too. I was a history student at the time, so with direct experience of real history professors, and that main character was not nearly smart enough.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I liked reading Da Vinci Code because I enjoyed that the author knew how to structure a thriller. Things happen! The chapters are paced properly so you want to go on to the next one! The plot never spins out of control with complications but also isn’t too thin!

        For me it was fascinating not for the actual story, which was silly, but in the same watching someone build a clock or a bomb would be.

        1. Phryne*

          I can understand that. Normally i am open to light entertainment of the sort, I think really the timing of my reading it was just very bad. Like I said, I was a student of medieval history at the time, so the world it was supposed to be easy one I was living and breathing and the contrast between how much everybody loved it and how much it was such complete nonsense grated immensely. I sometimes think maybe I should re read it to see if I mellowed with age, but I don’t really think it is worth it because it was such a silly story. :D

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Oh yeah; whenever I read a story set in a world I know about my mind tends to make lists of “no,” “that would not happen,” “why this guy should be fired,” and so on if the author clearly is fudging on reality.

    26. shteripecas*

      I didn’t love Wicked either. I thought the premise was fun, but hugely boring in the middle. I read the Night Circus as well, but it didn’t move me. Let’s see, books that are highly recommended that I couldn’t finish: Pretty Little Liars, the House in the Cerulean Sea. Hmm, had others, but can’t think of them now.

    27. Irish Teacher.*

      Wide Sargasso Sea. I had a lecturer at college who raved about it and since I had enjoyed the beginning of Jane Eyre but really disliked the whole “great guy who tries to trick Jane into a bigamous marriage while keeping his wife locked up in the attic,” I thought it sounded awesome. Reading it, both my mother and I were like “um, this makes no sense.”

      (I later mentioned to my lecturer I’d read it and had to be somewhat tactful when he asked my opinion.)

      1. Helvetica*

        I’ve tried to read it three times and it comes up recommended as great feminist fiction but I am with you – the book makes no sense and is quite tedious. I disliked the writing style as well.

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        I read it, and while I didn’t hate it, it definitely could have been done better. It seemed to have a lot of filler for such a short book. As usual, Bertha Rochester deserved more.

        It could have been shorter: Reader –Rochester sucks.

      3. Dear liza dear liza*

        If you like thrillers, Rachel Hawkins’ THE WIFE UPSTAIRS is a fun take on Jane Eyre. “Jane deserved better!” was her starting point.

      4. Sloanicota*

        Oh huh, I liked that one. I really got into Jane Eyre as a teenager so turning it on its head in a book I read later (in my 20s I think) “worked” for me. Ah well, different strokes for different folks!

        Also I … don’t think we’re supposed to believe Rochester is a great guy for trying to trick Jane. He’s a legitimately complicated character. The author is almost playing with the “you’ll reform this rake with your love!” by being like … or sometimes you won’t, and you’ll have to leave and let him sort himself out or not!!

        1. Clisby*

          My sister and I both read Jane Eyre at least by freshman year in high school, and every time we attended a wedding after that, we lived in hope that when the priest got to the part about if anyone knows a reason these 2 people can’t be married, let him speak now, somebody would stand up in the back and say, “NO! She’s already married to 3 other men who have now been unjustly committed to mental hospitals!” Or something like that. Sad to say, we were disappointed.

    28. goddessoftransitory*

      The Historian, by Elizabeth Kostova. It’s a version of the Dracula story that I thought I’d love, but when I got to the end I was all “why did you take so long and then short-sheet the ending?”

      The Little Friend, by Donna Tartt. Read the whole thing and still have no idea what happened. Even looked it up on Wikipedia and still don’t know!

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I liked The Historian, but I agree on the ending. Somehow, it felt like there should be more.

        Hard agree on The Little Friend. An entire mystery is set up, and there’s no real payoff.

    29. Cruciatus*

      It’s so funny, all 3 you mentioned are 3 that I often tell people I just didn’t care for! I’m so glad I’m not alone! My mom even tried Wolf Hall (she loved historical fiction, she read Les Mis in the original French!) and she gave up at just the same point I did. There’d be a bunch of people in a room and “he said and then he said and then he said” and I was like….who is talking!? But I will say the TV show was pretty good!

    30. What*

      Wicked, yes! Also, Daisy and the Six drove me nuts. I loved the format, unlike some folks. But how MANY times do we need to be told how gorgeous she is? Even the GUYS in my book club thought it was overkill.

    31. What*

      Wuthering Heights. What a horrid, disturbing story. Yeah, everyone thinks it’s this wonderful love story. I’m guessing many of them didn’t read the book, but saw the movie with Laurence Olivier, which iirc leaves out all the terrible parts (of which there are many). Mr Great Lover turns into a psychopath, killing others’ pets, and mentally abusing later generations for things they had no say in. It’s absolutely sick.

      1. Phryne*

        I like Wuthering Heights, but I have never thought of it (or heard anyone describe it) as a wonderful love story. When it is described as Romantic, that is meant as a descriptor of the age of Romanticism, a cultural movement focusing on great and deep emotions that developed as a counter reaction to the clinical sterility of the enlightenment. I would describe it as a gothic psychological horror personally.

        I guess you might have been set up with the wrong expectation going in, if you expected a love story, in which case I can understand being put off by it.

        1. Sloanicota*

          +1. Although I didn’t love Wuthering Heights compared to all the other Bronte books I read in that era (I went through a real phase of these books plus Austen in my late teens and early 20s) because I didn’t like *any* of the WH characters. I understand calling (particularly female / female author) characters “unlikeable” is a Whole Thing but even when I substitute the “am I rooting for these characters” the answer in WH was no.

          1. Phryne*

            It’s been a while since I read it, but it’s the writer/narrator not very clear that both Heathcliff and Catherine are incredibly selfish people who kinda deserve each other? I think the people to root for are the next generation trying to heal from an awful childhood inflicted upon them.

      2. Ellis Bell*

        I think it’s supposed to be a great love story because their love for each other was completely unchanging “like the eternal rocks beneath”. You know except for those five minutes where she forgets and married a completely different guy. Yeah they were about as sympathetic, kind and human as rocks beneath too. I also think there’s no more toxic basis for a relationship than basing on eternal souls having no say, and behaviour not counting. Together with Jane Eyre going gooey eyed over a man who imprisoned his wife you’ve got to wonder what those Brontë girls were using as their inspiration for relationships. But then you have Anne writing the Tenant of Wildfell Hall with a heroine who is someone who doesn’t put up with any shit and gets herself and her son out of there. The bad husband remains a bad lot, who is not redeemed or forgiven in the slightest. Huh, maybe I should change my name to Acton.

        1. Sloanicota*

          “Jane Eyre going gooey eyed over a man who imprisoned his wife” – I am so interested in this take, which multiple people have presented here! I guess this is the new “Beauty and the Beast is anti-feminist” which – that one seems fair. But (spoilers for Jane Eyre) – the moment Jane learns What’s Up, she ditches Rochester immediately and the entire next quarter of the book is about her working to rebuild her life without him! And although it’s possible to criticize the ending, she doesn’t return until his sentiment and actions and situations are entirely the opposite of what they were. And even “imprison” was like … the best standard of care at that time, right?

          1. Ellis Bell*

            I definitely read it through that lens sometimes and I do find Jane an enjoyable character because of it. I agree with your point about historical context. I’m also aware that if Jane and I were best friends chatting over a cup of tea I might say, “so the fact he had his wife in the attic while courting you, wasn’t a permanent deal-breaker then..?”

      3. Falling Diphthong*

        Alice Hoffman’s Here on Earth is a modern retelling of Wuthering Heights that leans into the wrongness.

        1. Weekend Warrior*

          It’s a great retelling that works on its own terms and gives insight into the original. Really good!

      4. goddessoftransitory*

        Oh, yeah. Wuthering Heights is great, but it’s an anti-love story, if anything–Catherine and Heathcliff were The Worst before that was even a concept.

        I’m sure it drove Bronte nuts that everyone was all “Oh, so romantic!” about those two when her entire point was social structure and hypocrisy created these monsters who destroyed everyone around them.

        Check out Hark! A Vagrant’s take on that book on her website (link in reply)

        2. Clisby*

          I wonder whether anybody at the time was thinking it was a great love story. Saying “Oh, so romantic” back during the actual Romantic period wouldn’t necessarily mean anything close to “love story.”

    32. Chaordic One*

      These are examples that date me, but I really disliked “The World According to Garp,” by John Irving and I’ve never ready any of his other books. I really dislike pretty much everything by Pat Conroy (especially “The Great Santini,”) and pretty much everything by Cormac McCarthy and everything by Chaim Potok.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Lord I dislike Cormac McCarthy. I’m basically never in the mood to read something that bleak and I need more female characters. I need to give Irving another try.

      2. Clisby*

        I have always thought Pat Conroy’s fiction was hugely overrated, which counts as heresy where I’m from. However, I think his nonfiction writing is much better, if anyone wants to give it a try. “The Death of Santini”, “My Losing Season”, “My Writing Life” are, while not great literature, worth reading.

    33. Chauncy Gardener*

      Cider House Rules by John Updike. I couldn’t even finish it I hated his writing style in it so much.
      But I enjoyed some of his other books. So very strange.

      1. Chaordic One*

        “Cider House Rules” by John Irving sounds depressing and awful and a lot like “The World According to Garp.”

        OTOH, I have mixed feelings about John Updike. When I was much younger, say in my late teens and early twenties I thought that he was “it,” but over the years my high opinion of him has dimmed a bit. I don’t dislike him but I have come to think of him as being a bit “meh.”

    34. Elastigirl*

      I was okay with Wicked, but I’m right there with you on Wolf Hall. Couldn’t finish it.

      I was okay with The Midnight Library, in part because it was immensely helpful to a suicidal friend, so I read it in that light.

      But the book I recently read and *hated* was The Twyford Code. My husband bought it for me for Christmas because the bookstore person recommended it. (He has to stop doing that.) Ymmv.

    35. carcinization*

      Geek Love and The Library at Mount Char. I read a lot of depressing, out-there stuff, and both of these were so nihilistic that they temporarily broke my brain. These had reputations as kind of fun quirky books but they just seemed like unmitigated people-being-awful-to-each-other. (And don’t say, “Don’t read Hench then, because I loved that book so much!)

  32. Damn it, Hardison!*

    I’m looking for suggestions and tips to help me with my broken shoulder! I fainted, fell, and broke my shoulder last week (non-dominant arm, thankfully). Any tips for dealing with all the random stuff I can’t do, or ways to get more comfortable with my arm in a sling? Fortunately I have a spouse that’s been awesome, and we’ve figured out some stuff – like making sure my food for the day is in a container I can open. But, I’m sure there are things I haven’t thought of doing or buying. Right now the sling is really irritating my arm, for example, and I can’t think of what would help. (I think the friction between my sling and the fabric of my shirt is the problem).

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I found it helpful to build a fortress of pillows–my wedge-shaped “prop up when I have a cold” pillow surrounded by other pillows to support the arm. My cats also really like this.

      For breast cancer radiation they give you a thin heart-shaped pillow, which when the burn came up stayed permanently under my arm–could a similar thin pillow cushion the skin that is being irritated?

      Good call on the food. I had T-rex arms on both sides after my last round of surgery, and realized I could not reach any glasses, mugs, or plates in the upper cupboards.

    2. Squidhead*

      When my spouse had a bulky shoulder sling and could barely use the arm, we just draped a big button-down shirt over that side! (It helped that it was summer and already hot, not cold.) We also used a thin nylon sling for showers and then had a whole ritual to get back into the bulky sling after drying off.

    3. WellRed*

      Get yourself to your nearest medical supply store to see if they have anything that might make the sling more comfortable.

    5. BellaStella*

      I am so sorry
      My six weeks of a broken shoulder happened in Sept 2021.
      I live alone sonised a baby wipe on the end of a wooden spoon to keep my underarm clean.
      Drink loads of fluids.
      Post healing do the physio and make time for massages and swim therapy too.

    7. Once too Often*

      Could you line the outer side of the sling with slippery fabric, to help it slide over the fabric below?

    8. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      I broke my upper arm and had surgery (no cast) and wrapped a silk scarf loosely around my arm as a protection against the roughness of the sling material. At one stage I used a very worn soft pillowcase as a cover for my arm- cut a hole in the end for my hand to go through. I was wearing t shirts though, not a shirt with sleeves.
      I also learned to take my tshirt off like a bloke-grab it at the back of my neck, tilt my head down, and pull forwards. That was a game changer!

  33. fhqwhgads*

    Financial conundrum question.
    I max out my retirement contributions and have a very decent savings. Probably too much savings actually. I keep meaning to either invest some of it, or put some in a CD or basically do other things so that money can earn some money. And then I keep not doing it because I feel like I don’t really know what I’m doing, am worried about making a mistake, or getting scammed or I donno know. For example I see articles pop up in my news feed about, say, these banks have the best rates for CDs right now or similar, but then I’m like…ack it’s all online and some of these I’ve never heard of and what if I’m being dumb. But also I KNOW I’m being dumb letting this amount of money sit in a savings account when I don’t intend to touch it any time soon. I know I could just do SOMETHING with my current credit union or other known entity, but the rates seem crap, so…yeah I keep ending up in an indecision loop.
    Anyone have any recommendations for getting over that hump? Or recommendations for well-regarded sites for advice on this sort of thing? Or other resources?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Speak to a financial advisor. You can call any local Charles Schwab or Morgan Stanley office (there are others) to get started, or ask friends if they have recommendations. You don’t have to be a millionaire to use their services and many work for very nominal fees (I pay a quarterly fee that is a small percentage of my portfolio, and my portfolio is relatively tiny). A financial advisor’s entire job is to help you figure out the best places for your money and how to make it grow.

    2. Squidhead*

      Definitely NOT an expert but two things that have never done me wrong are money-market accounts and CDs. We have a money-market account through Discover bank paying about 4.5% interest right now (I’m pretty sure, at least). It’s FDIC insured for more than we have in it. We can transfer money out when we need it. It sits there and earns money! Previously we had one through Fidelity and we could actually write checks from it (not do online transfers) and that was pretty nice. We also have a couple of CDs going. For most CDs you can’t lost your principle (the money you put in) you’ll just lose some portion of your interest earnings if you withdraw early. So it’s pretty low risk, especially if your money is literally just sitting there doing nothing right now.

      In terms of “getting over the hump” I’d suggest buying a CD through any reputable online bank. Check out the terms…the best interest rates are probably on 9 to 15-month CDs. Buy an amount you’re fairly certain you won’t need to access in that time period. Tell it to reinvest the interest. Watch your money grow a bit each month! Neither of these are particularly risky, so you’re not going to be able to quit your day job (probably) but “some earnings” is better than “no earnings!”

    3. ImOnlyHereForThePoetry*

      I was recently in my bank and they had a CD for 5% and a very short term.

      If you want to avoid shady financial advisors, just go to any of the big firms (we use Fidelity.) They will put your money into various mutual funds. You will have access to view where your money is invested, etc. You can select the funds yourself or for a fee have them manage it.

    4. Generic Name*

      I agree, talk to an advisor. You can put some savings in a high yield savings account. The one I use gets 4% interest. Or you can put it in a money market account that isn’t tied to retirement. It will be invested however you choose, and you can take money out whenever you want.

    5. Alex*

      I have my “I’m going to buy a house sometime soon I hope” savings in a high-interest online bank. Yes, it’s all online. But it is still protected under the FDIC so I feel good about that. I get 5% interest and I think that is pretty good for a no-risk return. Even a lot of the CDs and brick-and-mortar banks aren’t as high, and this way I have no time restraints on when I take it out (and I add to it every month).

      1. Saturday*

        I’ve also had good luck with online high-interest savings accounts. Some well-known banks offer them as well as ones you’ve never heard of.

        The idea of choosing a financial advisor seems more daunting to me than choosing an online bank, so maybe try this first.

    6. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Yes, a financial advisor can help. Perhaps the company that has your retirement account can help. I discussed with my financial advisor and he helped me move my liquid savings to an account with Fidelity (where I have my retirement account). My financial advisor doesn’t work for Fidelity but manages my accounts so this was easy to do. I regret not getting a financial planner earlier; he’s really set my mind at ease regarding retirement and making my money work for me now.

    7. Roland*

      Plus one to a financial advisor. I love mine. People always have so much advice about “just” do this and “just” do that but I don’t want to sift through contradictory online info, it’s not a fun hobby for me like it is for some people. And she makes charts and spreadsheets which make me feel secure about my financial future.

    8. ccsquared*

      I feel you – this was me 10 years ago.

      I highly recommend the book “The Index Card” and the chapters on investing. Learning some basic terminology and strategies for normal people will go a long way to feeling more confident. Ignore your news feed – the personal finance press needs to focus on novelty to get you to click the link, and most of this stuff is like fashion: you’ll end up better dressed if you focus on what works for you and not the trends.

      Also, if you haven’t thought about your goals for your money beyond just saving more than you earn, I’d really encourage you to do that because it’s much easier to choose investment strategies if you know how much time you have before you’re going to need the cash. If you’re saving to buy a house in a year, that’s a different strategy than saving for retirement in 30+ years. There are tons of calculators online that you can plug in your timeframe and interest rates to figure out how much money you need for something and the rates to get there in the time you have. Also, when you do this, you may realize that your best “investment” is to do something you really want to do by spending that money – maybe it’s buying that house now, going back to school, taking a vacation, etc. Unless your only goal is to maximize the money in your estate when you die, there’s not much value to accumulate solely for accumulation’s sake.

      I’m a little less enthusiastic than others about going straight to a financial advisor. Fee-only advisors who don’t earn commission on selling you investments are really expensive, so unless you’re approaching $1M or more, it’s not worth it. Commissions-based advisors are fine to work with to actually set up your investments, but they aren’t financial life coaches, so you will get more mileage out of working with them if you have clarified your goals and go in requesting something more specific than “what should I do with this money?” If you’re the kind of person who needs this kind of social support, though, maybe ask your network for a recommendation, as some financial advisors are more relationship-oriented and might be willing to work a little more on defining goals rather than bee-lining to a sale.

    9. fposte*

      I’m another who would argue against going to a financial advisor. If you do, find one who charges an hourly fee (Garrett Network is a place to start looking) rather than a percentage of assets.

      But read the bogleheads dot org wiki, The Index Card, William Bernstein’s free online pamphlet If You Can. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors around finance when it’s actually pretty simple to do better for yourself than handing your assets over to somebody, because most financial advisors can’t earn back the disadvantage of the money you spend on them.

      1. MissB*

        thank you for this viewpoint. We met with a financial advisor about 5 years before dh planned to retire, and then again about a year prior to his retirement. I think wrapping one’s head around managing one’s own money is the way to go.

        My employer allows us free access to some financial advisors too, so the OP could check to see if they have that benefit.

    10. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

      As you note, doing something with your money is usually better than doing nothing. It’s okay to make a less than perfect decision as you learn — give yourself that permission!

      I started out reading the magazine *Smart Money* and learned from them, taking some of their suggestions. Have I made some errors? Sure. Have I always made as much money as I could have? Nope. But I made more money that I would have if I had just let everything sit in a bank account, especially when interest rates were in the basement.

      Maybe you can get over the mental block by setting aside just a modest portion of what you have saved, an amount that you’d be willing to lose if everything went ker-blooey, and using that as your learning fund. Experiment with investing it somewhere and see what happens. If you feel okay with the result, experiment with investing another small portion somewhere else and see what happens there. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good!

    11. Sunflower*

      Going against the grain here- you absolutely do not need a financial advisor. I was in your situation 3 years ago and then made personal finance my pandemic hobby and learned how easy it is to do it on your own.

      Check out personalfinanceclub, shewolfeofwallstreet and female.in.finance on instagram to learn more about your investment options. If you are a woman, the groups Females and Finances and Womens Personal Finance (Women on FIRE) on Facebook are super helpful to post and get feedback on your situation. The most helpful part of social media here is that you get t absorb other folks situations and advice and pick and choose what you think works for you.

      Im happy to share what I did but don’t want to bog you down with details. I basically put my emergency fund in a HYSA and threw the rest in an index fund in Fidelity.

    12. Lady Alys*

      Another book I’d suggest (to go along with “The Index Card” already recommended) is “The Simple Path to Wealth,” by J. L. Collins. It started out as a blog (which you can still read, I’ll put the link in another comment), with a long series of posts on investing aimed at his college-age daughter, so definitely good material for someone new to investing.

      Talking to a financial advisor isn’t necessary at all, but if you do look for one, even for a one-time consultation, make sure to find a “fiduciary.” They are obligated to look out for your best interests, unlike some other types of advisors who are allowed to sell you things without telling you how *they* profit from the transaction.

    13. Girasol*

      If your retirement contributions are with one of the big brokers, like Fidelity or Vanguard or T Rowe, ask if they offer free consultations to their own customers. Bear in mind that they’re motivated to sell their own company’s service, of course. But often the advice is enlightening and can start you on a google search later for the detail you need to make your own decision.

      1. Angstrom*

        How are your current retirement savings invested? Are you comfortable with those levels of risk and return?
        Thinking about that should help guide you toward investments that feel comfortable for you.

    14. Anon, colleagues will recognize it*

      So here’s the argument for having too much savings. My husband and I together were making a pretty monthly income. Savings kept going up and up. I said, we need to invest this money, it’s not doing anything just sitting there in checking.

      In the last year my husband has had several medical issues. Expensive ones. Then he was in the hospital for a month— 10 days in the ICU, inpatient physical rehab after that, then the same but w a visiting service. He had to retire, and he had the larger salary. Doctors doctors doctors. Home care aide so I could go to work. (Now that’s expensive) He was recently back in the hospital for two and a half weeks. Plus every week it seemed something else needed fixing (cars, dryer, water heater, bathroom sink, toilet…) There’s more…but you get the picture.

      I was so glad we had that ridiculous amount of cash so I could just pay bills without having to immediately reconsider our budget. I’ve been slowly getting finances in order.

      (Also deeply grateful for decent health insurance. I paid about $20k of the almost $300k in medical bills for 2023)

      So maybe keep yourself a nice, easily accessible chunk of change, along with some investments.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I agree. Always, always keep some readily accessible cash money that you can get hold of right away–in a bank account, of course, but try to keep some cash on your person or in your house if it’s secure. One thing I see over and over during natural disasters is people who theoretically have money unable to pay for a sandwich because they use their card for everything and electricity/networks are down.

      2. Sloanicota*

        I will say, as someone who owns a somewhat rundown house, I am asTONished by how much cash people are apparently keeping on hand, so I now have new savings goals. Granted, I may live in an expensive area for labor. But contractors often expect to be paid by check at least half or a third down before taking on a job, and I will sooner or later need some very expensive jobs done (roof, HVAC, tuckpointing). You can pull some funds out of various savings accounts but I previously thought the cash in my checking account was too much and wasting the opportunity to work, and now it’s basically gone :P

    15. ronda*

      I know many people invest in CDs, but I find them annoying, cause they are set for a certain period of time, then you need to do something to get the next cd set-up.

      I prefer a money market account. they pay about the same interest and it stays in there until you decide you want to take it out. you can get them at any brokerage (& many banks). (I prefer Fidelity or Vanguard)

      and once you have an account at one of the brokerages you may look at other investments that you might like to try. your emergency fund should probably be in a money market, but if you have more than you need for that you might start deciding to invest in other things. Total US Stock Market index funds are probably the most popular (yes they will go down in value sometimes, but it is generally the best performing type of fund for the past decades)

      I do like the wiki on this site for lots of good investing information: www. bogleheads .org/wiki/Bogleheads®_investing_start-up_kit
      bogle is Vanguard founder, so will lean toward using vanguard funds as examples, but does mention others.

      1. And thanks for the coffee*

        I agree; money market accounts are easy and relatively safe. I have a vanguard account that is indexed to S&P 500. It has done well. And it is easy to get the money if needed.

    16. office hobbit*

      Vanguard has low fees and is relatively simple to use. I agree with others that you’re unlikely to need a financial advisor. And I would keep a reasonable portion (what this is will depend on you) relatively liquid, in case of medical or home repair emergencies.

    17. Anonymous Koala*

      I would start with a no-penalty CD; the rates aren’t as good but they’re still more than a savings account and will give you a chance to try something new without loosing anything if you decide you need the money right away. Ally and Capital One have decent rates and 11-month terms.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Need way more information. Do you live in a city? Suburb? Rural area? US? Europe? Asia? What do you like to do? Who are you doing it with and what do they like to do? What is “short”– a weekend? A day trip? Driving or flying? What’s your budget? What’s “different”– what do you usually do on date nights?

      In short: people can’t make good recommendations without parameters.

      1. ImOnlyHereForThePoetry*

        US, suburban but near a city. No kids, can travel

        Looking more for ideas outside of dinner, theater, movie, sporting event, concert. Especially things that are things people may not know about like taking a behind the scene tour of a zoo.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Look up “Things to do in Seattle” or wherever, and then go do any that sound intriguing.

          Thus did we have an unexpectedly fascinating tour of Seattle’s downtown basements, which used to be at street level. (A good historical guide is absolutely crucial to this being interesting, for it is literally wandering around in some basements.)

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            It is also, last I knew, required, because otherwise you’re not allowed to access those spaces :)

          2. goddessoftransitory*

            The Underground Tour! So fun, and I had a great guide who relished telling us all about the many, many “seamstresses” who all lived in one great big house and had many gentlemen callers.

        2. Texan In Exile*

          I find a lot of cool stuff on Eventbrite.

          Our museums and libraries do interesting things as well. Check their event pages on Facebook or look at their websites. I mentioned earlier that my library hosts amazing speakers. So does the Milwaukee Public Museum, which has hosted really interesting scientists talking about really cool things, like why ancient lakes matter or how they figure out how old stars are or why soil (not dirt) is interesting.

        3. MaxKitty*

          Are there any tours in the city that sound appealing? Ghost tours, Segway tours, food tours, brewery tours. Axe throwing has become big. Mini-golf or Top Golf if one is nearby? A museum you’ve been meaning to get to but never have? Many have special 21+ events at night. A festival for something in the area? And check out your local parks & rec offerings. Our town has special events all the time.

        4. Tiny Clay Insects*

          If you’re near a city, I bet that city has a roller derby league. Go see a game! They are really fun.

        5. goddessoftransitory*

          Go to your local paper; they often run “5 Fun Hikes” or “Restaurants You’ve Never Heard Of” features in their metro or local sections!

        6. BikeWalkBarb*

          A friend pointed me to Roadside America dot com as a source for oddball and little-known attractions you might want to visit.
          My husband and I started a practice a couple of years ago of going on daily dates for however many years we’ve been married around the date of our actual wedding anniversary . Our definition of a “date” is pretty wide open because we’re pretty easy to please. Things we’ve done include driving to the ocean that’s about 90 minutes away from where we live and spending the day at the beach flying kites. Biking to a park with the kite and bubble blowing devices and thrilling every kid there when they saw that I was blowing bubbles (also a handy way of knowing which way the wind is blowing for your kite flying, as it happens). Going to a nearby national wildlife refuge and walking through it on the trails stopping to read all of the informational signs about the birds and animals we were seeing. Getting fancy French pastries at a bakery and taking them to a little Japanese garden I’ve been wanting to visit and eating them there. We just moved to this town 3 years ago so we’re still very much in tourist mode checking things out. For us a date night can also include getting a lot of snacks we consider treats that we don’t get very often and spending the evening playing a game or working on a jigsaw puzzle. As I said. simple. This year I will be looking at the calendars for the various colleges and event venues in our area and seeing if there’s anything we want to go to and I’ll get tickets in advance. We have to come up with 17 ideas. We also make sure that it isn’t just one of us coming up with all the ideas so the total list is a mutual project.

      2. shteripecas*

        If your area has a circus school, book at date-night circus private lesson. The place I did circus at had these, and the 2 hour date package included trampoline, unicycling and aerials.

    2. Jay (no, the other one)*

      Assuming “different” means “not dinner and a movie” – and assuming you either don’t have kids or have available childcare – how about being tourists in your own area? During the first six months of the pandemic, we went hiking or walking in a lot of the state parks and historic areas/battlefields around here that we hadn’t explored even after 30 years of living here. I grew up in the NYC suburbs and now live a couple of hours away and I love going in to the city and doing the things I scoffed at as “touristy.”

      1. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

        Love this idea! Find a tourist guide to your area and have at it. One of my friends is really good at finding these sorts of things. When she was living in Indiana, she found us this 18th-century Inn in a state park where we could have dinner with foods from that era, including hasty pudding. It was a total blast.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      Classes! More recent ones for us have been mushroom foraging and a few different cooking classes.

      For at-home date night, the escape room in a box puzzles are fun.

      Outdoor experiences- kayaking, whitewater rafting, ziplining, etc

    4. HannahS*

      Check your municipal website! I used to live in a mid-sized city and I found so many fun things to do on the municipal website. All the little museums that you may not know exist, the festivals that are going on in your region, the local artisan guild having a show, etc.

      Other possibilities:
      Learn something together: attend a lecture series, take an art class, try stand-up paddleboarding, go to an observatory
      Take a tour: of the zoo, of a museum’s private collection, of your own city

      1. Bart*

        We joined the local ballroom dancing club. We are both beginners and are enjoying learning new things together and meeting the nicest group of people!

  35. Chanel No. π*

    Looks like we have a new cat!

    About ten days ago, a friend of ours brought us a stray. It was on her property, but she already has a rescue cat that doesn’t do well with other animals. So we took her in, fed her, soothed her, and in stages, introduced her to our other four cats. A few days ago, we finally let her outside, and she came back the following afternoon. So I guess she wants to stay!

    We’re calling her Betsy. Her coloring reminds me of the background of an Andrew Wyeth painting, so at first I thought Helga, but then I saw it didn’t fit. I wouldn’t call her aggressive, exactly, but the first few days, she could only tolerate so much human contact (about thirty seconds, at first) before the paw would fling out and she’d yowl. She’s warmed up since then, and now voluntarily flips over for tummy rubs. But for a while, she was so snappish, she made me think of this portrait https://mydailyartdisplay.uk/tag/betsy-wyeth/ of Betsy Wyeth. Andrew started filling it on right after they’d had some harsh words, and he captured her red cheeks and set jawline quite effectively. So our grumpy cat is Betsy!

    1. Chanel No. π*

      “Andrew started filling it on…” Filling it *in*. And I forgot to say, the reason Helga wouldn’t have worked is because the Helga who Wyeth painted was a warm, nurturing earth-mother type. That’s not this cat! At least, not when she first got here.

  36. Jm*

    I’m reading a book set in the ‘30s in the rural western US. There are references to phone calls to other criminals, mob bosses, etc reporting as if it was confidential information. The anachronism is really bothering me. You would have to go through an operator to connect even a local call and everyone knew they were listening! It was 1960s before we could dial direct. Am I being unreasonable?

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Nope! And a lot of those people would have party lines.

      My mother remembers having one in the very early 50s, and that was in a big city!

      Anyone who’s watched movies from the time period would know how this worked.

    3. Jay*

      Believe it or not, there were a couple of ways around that.
      It would all depend of where the calls come from and go to.
      -If it is a small group of isolated residences, there was this bizarre and short lived system called a “Barbed Wire Telephone”. They were literally using the barbed wire fences that sectioned off miles and miles of grazing land to transmit phone signals. As long as no one else had a phone hooked up to the wires, no one was listening in.
      -In more urban locations private lines were indeed available very early on, as early as the 1800’s. You would need your own actual strung line, if memory serves, but it was doable.
      -Dealing with operators was easy enough. Pull some strings and get somebody’s wife or daughter a job at the switchboard. Or find someone willing to take cash for very carefully not hearing anything anybody said.

    5. RLC*

      Small town and rural Central Nevada, party lines/shared lines hung on through at least the mid 1980s. Did know a couple of people in very remote areas who had a private line after the railroad abandoned telegraph lines and allowed residents to take the lines over for voice use.

  37. Falling Diphthong*

    What have people been watching, and would you recommend it?

    Once Upon a Time in Hollywood: Noticed it was on Hulu which we currently have, remembered it was well reviewed, and I’ve been checking out anything with Margot Robbie after Barbie. It’s Tarantino’s love song to Hollywood and to 1969. Robbie is incandescent as Sharon Tate, fully embracing a golden time in her life.

    Extraordinary: 8-episode comedy series on Hulu, which I came across in a piece about gems that slipped through the cracks in our age of many great streaming options. In a world (specifically London) where almost everyone gets a superpower when they turn 18, Jen is cursed with being ordinary. My husband described this as “watching people make terrible life decisions” and it’s definitely that brand of humor. Also I think I really need the steady, responsible sweetness of best friend Carrie, who probably needs to take a break from the other characters and not bail them out.

    The Marvels: Chosen as an easy thing to watch with spouse’s sniffles. It was… fine. It perfectly embodies so much of the Marvel superhero stuff: Charming main characters I like. Good character moments. Good fight choreography, though as ever why no one has heard about distance weapons is… a thing. Redshirts get wiped out and welp that’s what happens when you’re a side character, just there to raise the stakes by wordlessly dying. (As noted upthread, lower stakes can make us care a whole lot more.) A nod to sympathetic villain motivations and redshirt exasperation, but no follow through–there were better plans, Ms. Villain! A great scene with many cats, and it’s a shame that I just had zero doubt as to the outcome.

    1. GoryDetails*

      I watched the 2021 “Dune” film, as a lead-in to Part 2, which I’ll be seeing in an IMAX theater in March. I’d read the books ages ago, and had seen the first film adaptation (lovely scenery and effects, really bad choices re scripting, and soooo many voiceovers) and the mini-series (better re scripting, not as good re effects). The 2021 film was gorgeous, and had some solid performances – and I’m looking forward to seeing Part 2 on the big screen.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Omg I just finished watching it! And then immediately went to the Alamo Drafthouse website and bought a ticket for Part Two. \0/ It was so good!

      2. allathian*

        I really enjoyed the first part of Dune, and the trailer for the second part looks fantastic. A few weeks ago we saw Aquaman 2 in IMAX and they showed the trailer, and I definitely want to see Dune 2 in IMAX.

    2. DistantAudacity*

      A shop for killers: 8 eps on Disney+, about a young girl/college student, who has been raised by he uncle, realises at his (early) funeral that All is not As It Seems, and she must use skills he taught her to survive. Excellent performances all around, quite violent, with assassins and soldiers and fighting, and a lot of the story told in flashbacks. I usually hate flashbacks, but they work very well here.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      Ooh, I absolutely fucking hated Once Upon A Time In Hollywood. The casual racism with which Bruce Lee is treated, the fact that Brad Pitt’s character killed his wife (who was, of course, a nagging shrew) but we’re still meant to think he’s an absolutely super guy and the general pointless and endless meandering around because Tarantino apparently doesn’t work with anyone who can say “Oi, Quentin, this scene is a terrible idea and also everyone is bored of your foot fetish”. Tarantino films are usually at least entertaining, but this was the first one of his that I’ve found entirely boring. Margot Robbie was great in it, though.

      Also on the topic of divisive film-makers – I recently saw Poor Things and disappointed myself by coming down somewhere in the middle on the debates surrounding this film, since I didn’t feel that it was either misogynist or feminist, but understood how it could support both of those interpretations. Instead of re-hashing those debates, I’m going to rank the accents, since this is the rare film with a cast of British characters played by Americans:
      Emma Stone – flawless.
      Ramy Youssef – pretty convincing, I wouldn’t have been able to guess he was American.
      Christopher Abbott – also pretty convincing.
      Mark Ruffalo – okay unless he’s shouting, which (since his character is a pompous aristo/embodiment of the patriatchy), he does a lot. (Ruffalo is otherwise excellent and hilarious in this film.)
      Willem Dafoe – not even a bit Scottish, sorry.

      Also, the dance scene is the best scene in this film. I hereby request that every dance scene in cinema should be directed by Yorgos Lanthimos.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I’m pretty ‘eh’ on Tarantino–didn’t care for Kill Bill, which I think is the only thing of his I’ve watched. He made a villainous villain on Alias.

        I was really caught by Sharon Tate not just being a dead body in a footnote in the stories of two men doing horrible things. That the movie focused on her alive, joyful, finding success, learning, connecting with people. (My husband it turned out didn’t know the history being portrayed here, which does give one rather different feelings about the story as a whole.)

    4. vombatus ursinus*

      I’ve been watching Le Monde de Demain (called ‘Reign Supreme’ in English) on Netflix — it’s a fictionalised series about the early development of French hip hop in the 80s. I am really enjoying it on the level of acting and storytelling so far (and ofc the soundtrack), but I really don’t have a lot of historical and cultural context for how accurate it is, so ymmv!

    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      Started Wayward Pines. Didn’t have high hopes (it’s been hard to trust after Twin Peaks), and they were thoroughly dashed when the most interesting, capable character is killed early on. It’s not hard to see why the other characters doubt the main character when he says he’s a federal agent, as he’s breathtakingly incompetent. I don’t believe him, either. I gave up, as don’t care enough to see how/if the story will resolve itself.

      Finally watched the first season of True Detective, and I was impressed by how well done it was. Loved the irony of the title, too.

      I can’t bring myself to watch Tarantino’s stuff. I saw Four Rooms in the 90s, and it’s laughably bad. I saw Kill Bill in the theater and almost walked out, I hated it so much. And I have seen Tarantino interviewed. It did not make me like him as a person, let alone a director.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I really love True Detective first season! The chemistry between the leads and the darkness of the mystery worked great.

      2. The Prettiest Curse*

        To be fair, Four Rooms is considered to be his worst film. I think there are only three essential Tarantino films – Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction and Jackie Brown. The first two were so influential in 90s cinema (and inspired so many crappy imitators) that they may not hold up so well now. I saw all 3 on the original release and haven’t re-watched them since, so it would be interesting to revisit them at some point.

        I agree that Tarantino himself seems like an incredibly tiresome person who has become even more unbearable as a result of being worshipped so much by film geeks.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I finished the last season of The Great finally. I’m sad that it’s over (it was cancelled), but I’m glad when a show ends fairly well and doesn’t go on and on until it jumps the shark and then drags the stinking carcass of said shark around behind it until everyone runs screaming into the night. I loved everyone in the series but Nicholas Hoult is an absolute treasure.

      Not a fan of Tarantino generally, but I enjoyed Inglourious Basterds.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        I like things to end! It’s the nature of stories to have an ending.

        I do not enjoy the dragging of the stinking carcass.

    7. Helvetica*

      I watched “A fish called Wanda” for the first time and it was a delight. Funny, witty, smart, intriguing. And if I may add, Jamie Lee Curtis looks so good and acts so well that I fully believe she can make any man she meets fall in love with her.

      1. Angstrom*

        Oh yeah. When she first introduces herself to the Cleese character she is absolutely glowing, and it is perfectly believeable that he’d be bowled over by her.

  38. Jackalope*

    I have a sort of complex question that I’ve had for a bit that was recently retriggered by a book I was reading. I was raised in the (probably familiar to most people from the US) Protestant view of forgiveness, where forgiveness is something you always give if someone else has wronged you. That is still the norm in the Christian circles I’ve run with. Meanwhile in the online circles there’s a lot of, “Forgiveness is something you should never expect, and if someone causes you harm then you should cut them out of your life immediately or with maybe one second chance and that’s IT,” which seems more appropriate for relationships that are abusive but in my eyes less so for normal relationships.

    So in the book I was reading (a romance novel using the third act breakup cliche which I hate for so many reasons) the two main characters are together and have been living together for several months. They’ve had maybe one onscreen fight ever, and then something comes up and the female lead learns that the male lead knew something he hadn’t shared with her (that they had been online friends before they accidentally met in person). She gets angry, he apologizes, she says she can’t forgive him, and he says he’ll move out. The end. (Until of course in the last chapter they somehow both come to the conclusion separately that they must get back together and meet up and kiss without discussing ANYTHING.)

    So my question is, how do you handle things like this? How do you figure out what is forgivable vs. not? And if apologizing isn’t a way to repair the relationship (and I’ve heard a lot of people saying that if you’re expecting your apology to repair the relationship then you’re just making it for selfish reasons and it’s not real and doesn’t count), then how do you repair it? I’m not talking about abusive relationships, and I’m not even just talking about romantic ones (although it seems odd to me that a couple like the one I described above that had been living together for months would probably not just break up at fight #1, if nothing else because it’s hard to separate your lives like that). But in general, if parts of society are giving up on apologies and forgiveness as a repair technique, how should things be repaired? Or is this just s thing on the internet?

    1. Jay (no, the other one)*

      This is complicated! I am not Christian and always found the idea of “turn the other cheek” puzzling. Doesn’t that let them hit you again? My current thoughts about forgiveness were heavily influenced by reading “The Sunflower” by Simon Weisenthal. He collects ideas about forgiveness from a wide range of thinkers and traditions. The one that stuck with me is that forgiveness has nothing to do with the other person. I forgive someone to let go of the emotions I’m carrying. I do it for myself. I don’t even have to tell them. And I don’t have to stay in relationship with them if I believe they will hurt me again.

      In 12-step work we distinguish between apologies and amends. Amends include “this is what I am going to do differently in the future so this doesn’t happen again.” If I have wronged someone and want to repair the relationship, I try to make amends. And then it’s up to the other person to decide if that’s enough to stay in relationship with me.

      I don’t think “parts of society are giving up on apologies and forgiveness” and I don’t think you can separate this from abusive relationships. Women and other marginalized people are often pressured to forgive in order to maintain the status quo even when (maybe especially when) the status quo is oppressive or abusive. I want my daughter to know that she gets to decide when enough is enough and that there is no objective standard for that. I grew up in a family riddled with estrangements. This isn’t new. We hear about it more because we hear about everything more.

      I figure out what I can live with. My husband treated me very badly in the past. I have forgiven him for that – I’ve let go of the resentment and anger, for the most part. I am also very clear that if it happens again I will leave. Some people would have left the first time and that would have been right for them.

      1. Jackalope*

        One of the Internet examples that has stuck with me is this: When I first started dating my now-husband, he had a specific term of endearment that he had always used. It was something perfectly normal and respectful, something like “honey” or “dear”, but I happened to hate it. So I told him this and he began doing the hard work of taking it out of his vocabulary; he kept trying, apologizing when he failed, and it became rarer and rarer, but it took in the 2-3 year range before he said it for what I assume was the last time.

        At the same time (when we’d been together for a month or two) I read an online discourse in a comments section like this one (well-maintained, and with generally thoughtful comments) where someone else discussed a similar situation. She said that if she had someone call her a name like that (and to be specific, we are talking a term of endearment that is generally considered to be loving and affectionate, NOT a name that is insulting or belittling) and she told him not to, then he would get one more slip-up and after that she would break up with him because he was showing her disrespect. Now I would have considered my then-boyfriend ignoring my request or deliberately using the term more frequently to bug me to have been a yellow or red flag of disrespect, and THAT would have been something I considered worthy of a breakup. But him actively trying to break past patterns to me of a way to show affection wasn’t a dealbreaker even if it took him awhile to get there.

        So that’s the sort of thing I’m thinking of; I’ve seen little things come up a lot like that online with people saying, “Break off the relationship!!” even when it’s something that would fall into the category of “annoying things people do sometimes” rather than “abusive” (which to use the above example again, had he deliberately chosen to keep calling me that term on purpose, I wouldn’t have considered it abusive per se but I would have considered it a warning sign that abuse might be on the horizon, if that makes sense, a sort of testing the waters to see how much he could get away with). Relationships, especially those where you share a house or a room with someone, involve so much of people being annoying at times in ways that you have to figure out a way to deal with. Which can involve talking it over with them and asking them not to, or finding compromises, or possibly no longer sharing a dwelling, but can’t always involve ending the relationship immediately because the other person closed their door too loudly and woke you up (which is more the level of issue I’m thinking of).

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I think it’s very relevant that the example in your second paragraph is a hypothetical claim about what she would do. It’s easy to make those.

          Like the wit of the staircase, coming up with great zingers for hypothetical situations but tongue-tied whenever fate rolls out an opportunity for you to use one.

        2. Sloanicota*

          Yeah, in relationship advice columns the commenters are almost always like “DTMF!!” over every little thing. The argument seems to be like, “well, if you’re just dating, anything is a good enough reason to break up!” (true, but that’s … not what the LW wans?) or even “well, if you’re just married and don’t have kids…” I always roll my eyes; obviously there are lots of reasons people might choose to stay together and it’s not always that easy to just walk away because of a small annoyance! Who do these people think they’re going to end up with, that never annoys them in any way??

          1. allathian*

            Indeed, and how do they react when someone else makes similar demands on them (quit doing that or this relationship is over, no second chances) for what seems to them to be a trivial reason?

      2. fhqwhgads*

        I am also not Christian but it was explained to me that the “let you hit them again” aspect of “turn the other cheek” is actually a modern misunderstanding/misapplication of that phrase. The time-period context is when you’re turned – whichever way you were originally – you were in position for them to slap you, but once turned the other way, you’re in position to embrace. So “turn the other cheek” is less “let them slap you again” and more “hug it out”. Loosely. Anyway, pedantic ramble on that particular idiom over.

      3. Jackalope*

        I had another long response to most of what you wrote that I think went to moderation, but I wanted to address the “turn the other cheek” issue you brought up at the beginning. My favorite interpretation of that is that Jesus was not advocating passivity and being a doormat, but was recommending that the people he was talking to, a people group who was subjugated by another, stronger power (the Romans), find creative ways of protecting their dignity without responding violently in return (which as a subjugated people would probably end very poorly for them). There is a whole explanation around this that you might or might not find interesting or compelling (Walter Wink is the person that first started talking about this), but the idea with “turning the other cheek” was that originally it said, “If someone hits you on your right cheek, turn your left cheek to him as well.” Basically, if someone righthanded is hitting you on your right cheek they’re probably backhanding you, which tends to be a more belittling action. By telling them to hit you on your left cheek (a regular slap), you’re pushing them to consider you more of a person with dignity who shouldn’t be backhanded. Now, is that a lousy situation that sucks a lot, when all the power you have is to convince the person oppressing you to HIT you in a way that is more respectful? Yes, yes it is. That specific idea may not be particularly transferable to our culture today, and frankly I’d like it to go away as a possibility entirely. But I think it’s helpful to know that this passage was encouraging nonviolent resistance to a colonial and oppressive power using the tiny bit of power one might have rather than passively inviting more abuse.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          That’s interesting. Coming from a country that was relatively recently under colonial rule (well, 102 years since independence now), I always read the Bible in light of taking part under colonialism (I remember being about 8 and confused by Jesus befriending Zacchaeus who I saw as the equivalent of the bailiffs and agents who evicted the starving Irish during the Famine), but that particular interpretation never occurred to me.

          And it certainly does fit with colonialism. It has echoes of Tone’s dismay that he was to be hanged as a traitor rather than shot as a soldier or de Valera after 1916 giving the British his permission to kill him or even Countess Markievicz telling them “I do wish you boys would have the decency to just shoot me,” though the last was about gender equality. Since the male leaders were sentenced to be shot, she considered it sexist that she was considered less of a threat. Or Terence McSwiney’s death on hunger strike, having declared that he was determining the length of his imprisonment and would be free, alive or dead, within, I think he said a month.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          I agree; the idea is to not let the physical world, or physical concerns, override spiritual goals. No matter how bad the circumstances, we can always choose.

          The second part of that saying goes along the lines of If someone takes your tunic, give him your cloak as well–that’s been interpreted lots of ways, naturally, but for me it means you aren’t letting fear and possessiveness control you (not that that person should be taking your things, but that you know all things are going to leave you in the end, and taking control of that to the extent that you can.)

    2. Zona the Great*

      It’s so tough to know where the line is. I’m someone who was terribly abused by my father growing up. My mother didn’t protect me. My brother emulated him. I only dated angry controlling men for years. I also was savagely bullied by people who I thought were my friends to the point where they taunted me daily to k!ll myself. It took until recently for me to grow a spine. But now, I’m actually quite proud of how quickly I can cut someone off. I know that sounds pretty harsh and I’m sure eventually I’ll find a middle ground. In the scenario you described, I’d be unable to move past someone lying about something like that. Was he a stalker? Was this relationship a natural one or one that was manufactured to exist by a creepy man? And now he’s living in my home with me? Eek! I think women have gained so much personal power and independence, we no longer have to be agreeable and nice.

      Basically, as a woman, I’m so content alone that a romantic relationship would have to be pretty much perfect for me to want to allow any lying or secrets or fighting or anything. Because of what I went through growing up, I don’t emotionally invest in friends or friendships. I’m quite fine with that.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        My feelings about the parent who didn’t abuse me, but also didn’t protect me, underwent a profound shift with the passage of time and children of my own.

        1. Sloanicota*

          For the worse? I often hear parents say they un-forgave their parents when they had their own kids and started to think, “how could anyone do that / allow that to happen to children like these??”

        2. Zona the Great*

          My mom took serious accountability for her lack of protection which is why we are now able to be close. Accountability really matters.

          1. Miss Buttons*

            Yes, accountability really matters. My mother was never accountable to me for her lack of protection in my childhood, even though I calmly tried to tell her that it hurt me. I gave her the opportunity to discuss it but she wouldn’t. She died in her 90s still in denial about what really happened. I chose to maintain a relationship with her in my adulthood but it was superficial. After she died I grieved for the relationship we never had.

            1. Miss Buttons*

              Zona, I am glad to hear that accountability helped heal your relationship. Kudos to both you and your mother.

            2. Zona the Great*

              I am so so sorry. I am already really scared about my future with my father. He’s neglected himself so much that you can tell he expects his children to take care of him. I will not even administer his care from afar. I know that I’ll feel very very guilty for this but if I give in and take care of him in anyway, I’ll never forgive myself.

              1. Miss Buttons*

                Good for you for being resolute on this. His failure to plan does not create an emergency for you. I couldn’t do any direct caregiving for either of my parents, but I brought meals. Instead of guilting myself, I framed it that self-care is important, and I don’t have to help another if it’s hurting me. When I brought the meals, I pretended I was simply doing charity for a stranger.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Well, sometimes you can’t repair it. There are two people in every relationship (and by relationship, I don’t mean romantic ones only but any connection between two people) and if one person has decided the relationship is broken beyond repair, then it just might be, no matter what the other tries.

      The point about apologising not being the way to fix things isn’t that there is another way, but that people have the right to decide that certain things are dealbreakers for them, and those things don’t have to be abuse or even something most of us would consider serious. And that if you DO something wrong that hurts somebody, you should apologise without expectation of anything in return. If somebody is apologising to get forgiven or to resume the relationship, then…they are looking for something for themself.

      That said, I don’t think anybody really believes you should end every relationship if the other person makes any mistakes. The “don’t expect to be forgiven” is aimed at the person who has DONE the wrong, saying that they should assume it should go either way and accept whichever the wronged party chooses and NOT push further.

      I think there are few things that are completely unforgiveable and I think you KNOW if something means you no longer want somebody in your life.

      I don’t think there are lists of things that are forgivable and things that aren’t. It’s just up to you whenever you are wronged: is this something you can forgive or will you always think less of the other person or feel unsafe around them?

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I will add that forgiveness isn’t always (or usually) all or nothing. The options aren’t just cut somebody out of your life and hate them forever or forgive and forget and resume as if the offence had never happened.

        Nor is it entirely something you decide in a lot of cases. Sometimes the way somebody behaves makes you see them differently and now you can’t unsee it.

        Two and a half years ago, my brother behaved in a way that really hurt me. I think I could have forgiven him completely had he apologised, especially since I was going through a cancer scare at the time (which thankfully, turned out to be a false alarm) so I was probably somewhat inclined to be annoyed by stuff as I was annoyed by the whole situation and there were also some mitigating factors for how he acted. But he didn’t. Instead he basically tried to turn everything around, blame stuff on me, argue with me about conversations I had when he wasn’t there (“the reason X agrees with you is because you told them you,” “uh, no, I didn’t,” “yes, you did.” When X was somebody he had never met so it wasn’t like he got different info from them. He just made a version up in his head and insisted it was what happened), etc.

        Outwardly, our relationship hasn’t changed and he probably thinks either that I’ve forgotten the whole thing or that I accept his version of events, but…I can’t unknow what happened and I now interpret other things in light of that. Like yesterday, he claimed our sister was probably lying about something minor (think she said she couldn’t come to an event because she had an appointment and he thought she made the appointment up because she just didn’t want to go) and added “I know when she’s lying. I know how her mind works, probably because mine works the same way.” Three years ago, I would have taken that as a joke or a self-deprecating comment or as meaning he would try and avoid the event if he could too. But now, it had me thinking, “so what are YOU lying about?”

        I don’t think any group are giving up on forgiveness. I think what posts like those mean is that there shouldn’t be an EXPECTATION of forgiveness, that the wronged person ALWAYS has a choice. And the person who has done the wrong shouldn’t be thinking “how can I get them to forgive me?” because that’s arguably a type of manipulation in itself. They should be thinking “I hope they forgive me, but if they don’t, I’ll respect their choice, so long as they do not actively seek to do me harm in retaliation.”

    4. fposte*

      I do think online discourse is more drastic on this than real life actually is, and of course some of the most popular places where things like this get hashed out are full of fiction anyway. But the answer is that each of us choose for themselves, and I’m free to live with behavior that would make you walk immediately and vice versa. What I think people need to focus on is what works for them, not just what the internet seems to think.

      I did have a friend who was considering reconciling with his wife of 20 years, after the wife spiraled into substance abuse and moved in with another man but had turned things around with rehab and therapy. And in one of the rare life moments where I think I had something genuinely useful to say, I said I’d support him whatever he did, but that it should be a choice, not just a lapse into a default or an expectation. They did reconcile and have been happy for a decade since. Some of the internet would be appalled, but it’s real life, not AITA.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      On apologizing:
      I think one thing that’s important to remember is that without action, apologies are just words. One of my rules to my husband, that I have had to remind him about a few times over the years, is that if you’re just going to do the same thing again in the future, don’t bother to apologize because you don’t mean it and it’s insulting. The folks in my life that I have cut off would make big dramatic apologies for doing a thing that hurt me, and then turn around and keep doing the same thing over and over, while making the same big dramatic apologies every time. After enough of that – and “enough” varies situationally, by the who and the what – I removed them from my life. But if there’s a thing, and then there’s a sincere apology, and then the thing doesn’t happen again, then there’s a lot more room for forgiveness and moving on.

      Basically the verbal acknowledgement and apology is a dressing that someone puts over an injury they caused — then the outcome from there depends on whether the injury is treated carefully and allowed to heal, or whether someone continues to poke it with a stick, or a fork, or a knife, and thus keep it from healing. And some people heal better than others, with or without continued wound disruptions.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I would add to that – there are many ways to be angry and be sorry. Are they sorry I was hurt, but still feel they made the right decision / best decision they could (which may be a perfectly reasonable way to feel, depending on the circumstance?). Am I angry because they didn’t prioritize me when I wanted them to, or am I angry because they did something I don’t respect, or what? If the offense is one that fundamentally changes your understanding of the person or your relationship, perhaps there is no way forward, but you can chose to “forgive” them in the sense that you’re no longer angry (but still not getting back together).

    6. fueled by coffee*

      There’s a difference between forgiveness in the sense of “I accept your apology and understand that you regret what you did, and I am letting go of my anger/resentment/hurt over it” and forgiveness in the sense of “our relationship will now go back to how it was before this incident.”

      Romantic relationships are a great example of this. Someone can forgive someone for the emotional pain caused by lying/bad behavior/etc. and still want to break up. People aren’t obligated to remain in relationships just because they’ve accepted an apology.

      In a non-romantic example: I have an acquaintance who has frequently borrowed small amounts of money from me and never paid me back. I’ve “forgiven” her for this – I’ve reached the conclusion that I’m never getting repaid and it’s not worth the emotional energy to continue to be upset by this. But I’m also not likely to give her more money. Forgiveness doesn’t reset everything to a blank slate.

      1. Still*

        This is exactly what I came here to say. There’s apologising and then there’s doing better. There’s forgiveness and then there is trusting and treating the person the same as before.

      2. Observer*

        . Forgiveness doesn’t reset everything to a blank slate.

        This is so important, and I think it tends to get overlooked to often when the discussion comes up.

      3. allathian*

        Yes, this. When someone does me a wrong that I feel is non-trivial, I may eventually forgive them, but I will never, ever forget what they did. I may forget the details eventually but not the fact that they’ve hurt me.

        If I forgive them, I do it for completely selfish reasons because anger, even righteous anger, is a very heavy emotional load to carry, and it gets heavier the longer you carry it.

        But if the wrong is serious enough, forgetting it would only mean giving them permission to hurt me again.

    7. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

      Great question.

      I think it’s possible to forgive (which I guess equals trying to have compassion and understanding for why someone might have done something that was hurtful) without thinking that that means that you have to keep up the relationship or that you have to keep it up at the same level that it was before.

      Like, you’re allowed to decide that maybe, even if you understand why someone did something and that you’re no longer actively mad at them, you don’t have to expose yourself to them anymore.

      I’m probably biased, as I did go low-contact with a relative who had a years-long history of low-level problematic behavior. I do understand why she is like that and why she did some other super-controlling things, and I do understand that her intentions were mostly good, and I’m not actively angry at her any more, but I just could not cope with having her in my life anymore on any kind of regular basis (we are civil and polite when we need to interact in cases of family emergencies). My life is objectively better without her in it (I used to cringe every time I saw her name on my caller ID), and I’m allowed to act on that.

      Tl; dr: I think it depends on what you want going forward. If you would enjoy keeping the person in your life, do so. If you wouldn’t, that’s fine too. You can forgive and pick either of those options. You’re not required to pick a particular one.

      1. Non Reader*

        Yes, forgiveness and maintaining/cutting off a relationship are two VERY different things.
        Cutting my abusive parents out of my life ended the verbal abuse and attempts at manipulation. Once it was no longer ongoing, that reduced my mental load by a lot. I didn’t have to be on edge, I didn’t have to watch for and avoid manipulation. I didn’t have to try and manage things. No more trying to balance my dignity and autonomy with trying to maintain a relationship.
        And with the end of all that, came space for peace. Space to process my experiences of physical, mental, and verbal abuse & manipulation in therapy and have some understanding of the pain and brokenness they had, too. Space to let it go and not carry anger, pain and resentment any more. I call that forgiveness.
        And they’re still not, nor will they ever be, in my life.

    8. Not A Manager*

      I think your described dichotomy lacks nuance. Surely there’s a lot of gradation between “forgiveness is something you always give if someone else has wronged you” and “if someone causes you harm then you should cut them out of your life immediately.” You might, for example, acknowledge and appreciate a sincere apology, but still feel some anger. My kids used to apologize to me like it was an emotional “get out of jail free” card and magically I wouldn’t have any negative feelings after they said sorry. I used to say, “I accept your apology, and I’m not going to be angry forever, but I’m still angry right now.” Then when I wasn’t angry, I would tell them that, and we would sort of debrief whatever had happened. But the “I’m sorry” didn’t just solve everything right then.

      In an adult relationship, you might accept the apology and “forgive” the person, but you might not trust them the same way, at least for a while. And in fact, when that’s happened I usually DON’T still feel angry. For me, I think anger is in part from feeling like I didn’t get the treatment I expected and had a right to expect. When I change my expectations, and think, “maybe this person is unreliable/not as loving as I thought/whatever” then I don’t feel angry when they act in accordance with that perception. I might think “this relationship [is/is not] still worth it to me,” but I’m not angry about it.

      And then there are times when you accept the apology, forgive the offense, and over time the person proves trustworthy and you can tell they are thoughtful about what happened, and sometimes the relationship deepens after that.

      1. Jackalope*

        This makes perfect sense to me and is closer to what I would consider the “ideal” in this area with nonabusive relationships. I feel like the healthiest way of dealing with things is to work through and let go of my anger. And I agree that it can take time. But having one of the consequences of someone hurting me may mean that I might not trust them in that way for awhile, or ever. (I often think of my cats; they forgive me for stepping on paws or tail, and they will come sit on my lap because they know I don’t WANT to hurt them, but they’ll also avoid me if I’m having a clumsy day and I’m walking around. Because accidentally stepping on their tail still hurts.) For people who are important to me I want to keep the door open to things being repaired, but it may take awhile to get all the way there.

    9. Falling Diphthong*

      For an interesting take on forgiveness I recommend Season 5 of Fargo. I didn’t care for Ole’s plot at all for 6/8 of the season, up until his final scene with Dorothy paid off beautifully. (Including Christian overtones, but also limited to people who want to change and do better–you can not forgive the person who is currently breaking your jaw and will do so again.)

      There is A Thing of late where the lessons of therapy are being more widely applied, and sometimes what fits for an abusive relationship does not fit for other relationships. (One we see here is “no is a complete sentence” where for an ongoing relationship, you often do need to get more thoughtful and nuanced.)

      Giving a sincere apology is good–the ones where you acknowledge what you did wrong, take responsibility, and demonstrate you will do better in future. Bad apologies–“I’m sorry you feel that way” “I’m sorry–there, now you have to be fine with everything”–are not magical ways to make other people see things your way.

      I think for people who rebuild a relationship, it usually has more to do with being at a different point in your lives, where different things are important. (“Now there is a grandchild” is a stereotype for a reason.) So they take the things they now have in common as the basis, and build anew from there, rather than go back and hash out everything and then one person apologizes for their 22% of blame and the other for their 78% of blame.

    10. Turtle Dove*

      If I forgive someone, it’s a private choice that depends on the situation and the other person’s response. I don’t say “I forgive you” out loud to anyone, and I don’t think of it as forgiveness. It feels more like moving on and putting something behind me. And my feelings are usually in a gray zone and not black (I’m cutting you off forever!) or white (We’re all good now!). When a loved one’s words or deeds hurt me badly, I usually try to talk it out. But with one person, I never said a word, and neither did he. I proceeded cautiously. His subsequent behavior was consistently kind, so I decided it was a one-off, and I moved past it. I probably won’t get past it with two other people who tend to be difficult and critical, and that’s an ongoing problem. I’m on guard around them and keep the relationships shallow. If they ever acknowledge their unkindnesses, apologize sincerely, and do better, maybe we can be close again. On a positive note, my spouse is a role model for handling differences. He listens, tries to understand my point of view, and apologizes sincerely when that’s appropriate. And then we move on. He’s also good about not repeating an offending behavior. I try hard to do the same for him.

    11. I don’t post often*

      You mention growing up with Christian values/ biblical influence, do you believe in Jesus now?
      Here is why I am asking: I do not think divine forgiveness, or the ability to forgive someone when you personally cannot do so without Gods help is something that cannot be understand unless you believe this or have experienced it. Note: I have never been any religion but Christian so possible all religions work this way. I also do not think the biblical call to forgive can be understood in a secular context. It’s like comparing whether brownies or strawberries are sweeter. You could do that, but context would be really important and you could not adequately compare the two without context.

      Your question was specifically on apologizing. Outside of religion, let me share this: when I was in the 5th grade about 30 years ago, I lived in a tiny town and both sides of my family were very big fish in a very small pond. Two people in my family did something spectacularly horrible, not illegal or abusive, but just horrible. They did it for totally selfish reasons, consequences be damned, this would include significant hurt to their families and children. I was not a child of one of these people but my life was significantly impacted. About two years after this, some of the relationships returned to normal and continue on in a loving and supportive fashion to this day. Other relationships continued to experience animosity until one of the parties died.
      I recently asked my mother what actually happened and what a happened to trigger restoration. She said, “person came to me one night and apologized and asked for help. Over a six month time period, person went to (all individuals) separately and asked for forgiveness. Person was humble and admitted wrong doing. And when someone does that, the right thing to do is to forgive. Other person never did that and thumbed their nose at the thought on multiple occasions.”

      Now. Was the one apologizing or those forgiving doing so for selfish reasons? Possibly. I can tell you that because of those apologies and willingness to forgive, the entire trajectory of my life and many others changed for the better. I guess having lived it, i Would hate to think that I had not done my best to reconcile when appropriate.

      Sidebar to all of what I’ve said here: Generally the internet is a wild place. I wouldn’t base any real life experience or decision making on most Internet forums. Ask a manager is one of the few forums I enjoy because Allison does a great job curating. Do I agree with everything I read here? Absolutely not. But generally I think people are thoughtful and not flippant.

      1. curly sue*

        Forgiveness looks very different in different religions – it’s definitely different in Judaism, which is my background.

        In Judaism, sins against God and sins against other people are completely different categories. You can ask God for forgiveness for things between you and God, but He has no authority to forgive you for something you’ve done to someone else until they’ve forgiven you. Restitution and change always have to come first, and the onus is on the one who transgressed to make things right, not on the one who was harmed to do any forgiving.

        The Rabbi Maimonedes, one of our foremost medieval scholars, laid out the steps for tshuvah (“return,” as in “returning to the path of correct behaviour,” which also sometimes gets translated as “repentance”), and the correct order for those steps:

        1. Recognize and discontinue the improper action.
        2. Verbally confess the action, thus giving the action a concrete form in your own mind.
        3. Regret the action. Evaluate the negative impact this action may have had on yourself or on others.
        4. Determine never to repeat the action. Picture a better way to handle it.

        And he adds this: “When one has caused harm to others, whether by stealing from them, embarrassing them or anything else, then teshuva requires that restitution and reconciliation be arranged between the parties involved. The damaged party must forgive the perpetrator before Divine forgiveness is granted.”

        – Quoted from an article on sefaria; I can add the link in a different comment if needed.

        (There are then addendums that say that once you’ve made a good faith effort to redress your wrongs and attempt reconciliation three times, and if you’ve been rebuffed each time, then you’re free to move on and let the whole thing go.)

        That perspective is why I loathe “the grovel” as a plot point in romance novels. It’s all well and good to do the big apology gesture (step 2 from above), but until the actual behaviour changes, you’re just going to have the same problems over and over and over again.

        1. Observer*

          There are then addendums that say that once you’ve made a good faith effort to redress your wrongs and attempt reconciliation three times, and if you’ve been rebuffed each time, then you’re free to move on and let the whole thing go.

          To expand on this: It’s important to understand what this means. *Good faith* is one operative term here. The other operative thing is that three attempts don’t mean asking the same question three times in a row in short order. Like when we were kids, someone would go over to another kid and say “forgive me? Forgive me? Forgive me?” get a “No” each time and then say “Now it’s your problem.”

          Now most adults a LITTLE smarter, but you can’t do the adult version of this and consider your job done.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          An Irish soap fairly recently gave an example of how apologising can, in some cases, be part of the problem. It was a complicated situation. A woman inherited a lot of money ages back and she invested some of it in a pub without telling her husband. Now, it was her money, but she went to a lot of trouble to hide it from him and when he overheard something about it, she pretended they were asking her to invest. They had some friends who were interested in investing in that pub, so he let them know the pub was looking for investment (when it wasn’t really but he now thought it was) and when it came out that she had already invested, obviously they believed he had gone behind their backs and she refused to tell them the truth, telling her husband it would humiliate him if she told people he hadn’t known what his wife was doing.

          When he said he was leaving her, she did apologise but in a tone that came across like a parent apologising to their child that they had to work and couldn’t take them to the park after all like they’d promised. As if she was humouring him. “I’m sorry. It was completely my fault. But let me make it up to you. I’ll let you be barman in the pub. You always wanted to be a barman.”

          The apology itself was one more indication that she really didn’t respect him and was just saying what he wanted to hear. She was treating him like a child who just needed a little treat to make up for the fact he didn’t get what he wanted.

          And it was very clear she didn’t really understand what the problem was. She thought the issue was that he wanted more say in how they spent their money when what he really wanted was to be treated with respect. The real problem was that at some level she seemed to feel that inheriting money (and it was very much luck; she had a friend who died and left her a lot of money as he had no close family) made her better than him and until/unless she realised that inheriting money doesn’t give you the right to treat everybody around you as a group of children then apologising and even changing specific behaviours, like “I’ll ask your opinion before I spend my money in future” missed the point.

    12. Alex*

      I think forgivable vs. not forgivable is a very personal decision based on a whole lot of factors. I think there is a large number of Americans who don’t really think about forgiveness as a virtue the way you are describing–plenty of Americans are not religious even if they are vaguely Christian. I also think there’s a big push to “set boundaries” and not let people take advantage of you/treat your poorly and the flip side of that is that to forgive is to allow someone to treat you poorly. Of course, I also think that people posting that kind of stuff on the internet are doing just that…posting on the internet, not necessarily leading lives that are actually so black and white.

    13. Miss Buttons*

      Apologizing is useless if the behavior doesn’t change after it.
      Forgiveness? My definition of forgiveness is letting go of resentment, because resentment will eat me up inside if I hold it. Forgiveness does not mean make up or accept unacceptable behavior in the future from the transgressor. I have forgiven people but not accepted their presence in my life any more.
      Each individual gets to decide what their dealbreakers are. That is a separate issue from forgiveness.
      Also, for those who think forgiveness means you have to accept the person’s crap in the future? It is not a kind thing to do to let another person trespass on me. It hurts me but it also hurts the trespasser to allow it. True love and integrity does not enable people to behave badly, or promote bad behavior. It stands up to bad behavior.

    14. ThatOtherClare*

      I’m no Bible scholar, but I always thought the prevailing Christian view of forgiveness missed a bit of Biblical nuance.

      Firstly, forgiveness in my view seems to be reliant on repentance. Jesus might have died for everyone, but only those who repent and seek forgiveness have their sins washed away. I’m not going to forgive someone who knowingly and intentionally keeps on harming me. Unintentional is fine. I forgive my friends with ADHD every time they stand me up because I know they’d change things if they could, there’s no intent there.

      Secondly, the Bible might discourage vengeance and tell you to turn the other cheek, but that’s because you’re not omniscient and might mess it up, so you’re supposed to just patiently wait for accurate justice and be willing to accept any repentance in the intervening time. Much like in Eartly life, going vigilante rarely works out well. You might get hurt or hurt others in the process. Let the justice system deal with it.

      Thirdly, you can forgive someone by not being angry at them anymore, but you don’t need to put yourself in harm’s way again just because you’ve forgiven them. For example, I wouldn’t leave my purse in the care of a random stranger. I’m not angry at everyone I’ve never met – I simply don’t trust them in a non-judgemental, no big deal, kind of way. I’d happily leave my purse with my sister. If she stole from my purse, I’d be angry and I wouldn’t leave it with her again. If she apologised and requested forgiveness, I’d accept the apology and forgive her immediately. I wouldn’t be angry at all BUT I still wouldn’t leave my purse with her anymore. I could fully love her and forgive her with all her flaws, AND know that she couldn’t be trusted with that particular temptation.

      It sounds like the woman in the book needed to not share living space with the man for a while for her own safety, much like me carrying my own purse in my theoretical example. Forgiveness doesn’t really come into it, even if the characters thought it did/should. Eventually she felt safe again, at which point she forgave him and they got back together. Possibly she could tell that his repentance wasn’t genuine until a certain point and her unwillingness to share space was unconsciously based on that.

      In general, you can’t force someone to feel safe around you. All you can do is make sure that your repentance is genuine and act out of that. And obviously if you truly want someone to feel better and your absence or certain actions will help most, you’ll very much want to do those things! Sometimes even if a person forgives, they won’t be able to go back to the way things were before. They’ll feel the need to keep carrying their purse. That’s life. But if you want to be forgiven, your best shot at it is genuine repentance. The rest is up to the other person. That’s how I see it.

    15. BikeWalkBarb*

      I often find myself recommending the book On Repentance and Repair by Danya Ruttenberg. she talks about the importance of acknowledging what you did, recognizing whatever harm may have resulted, and committing to change so you won’t harm again long before you have any expectation of saying I’m sorry. I like this approach a lot better than asking for forgiveness with those fake “sorry if I offended you” statements. The book does a nice job of spelling out the concepts in terms of everything from international politics to sexual abuse by celebrities who get away with everything. It’s grounded in Jewish lava you don’t need to be Jewish to appreciate the points she’s making.

      1. BikeWalkBarb*

        Dang I wish we could edit our comments. That was supposed to be law, not lava! As far as I know volcanoes have no religious affiliation whatsoever.

  39. Pam Adams*

    Yiu might need to find a book actually written in the era- whether a novel or an etiquette guide to get an answer.

    1. Morning Reading*

      If this is about my Mrs question, I think you’re right, although I’m hard pressed to think of one that would have a married but about to be divorced character. Suggestions?

  40. approaching panic*

    Wedding food!
    We are getting married in May & have most of the food sorted. The original plan was to have a cold buffet straight after the ceremony, and then a one (large) course sit down meal early evening (with a professional caterer organising those bits), followed by tray bakes from our favourite bakery & wedding cake for dessert, then maybe self-catered crackers/cheese later on in the evening (the venue is semi-DIY – the staff are happy to put buffet food out or serve canapés if all put out on trays but do not do any food prep).

    For *reasons* (the venue was a bit funny about this plan as they like to have a cut off time after which all drinks go through their bar) we have now switched to the more ‘traditional’ wedding ordering – so we’re doing the main sit down meal mid afternoon (3-3.30ish) and then will serve dessert at 5.30ish & swap the buffet into the evening, probably 8.30ish.

    This means though the bit at the end that was meant to be self-catered & cheap (!) is no longer needed, but instead we might need to provide some sort of snack between the ceremony & the meal.

    Canapés are SO MUCH MONEY (like an extra £1000+ I’d rather not spend) for just not very much food! Ideas I’m considering:
    – self catered cold canapés (have some things I can made beforehand/freeze just defrost, like savoury flapjack bites, but if it’s going to be ‘not all beige’ then there’s some prep/assembly time either for me or for friends/family)
    – popcorn machine (you can get this with an attendant for £200 – but it’s obviously not exactly substantial food & I don’t know how quickly they can serve a large group)
    – (my current favourite option maybe?) – continental breakfast themed ‘canapes’ – shop bought mini croissants/pastries with grapes & fruit juice. And maybe yoghurt with berries? Or mini muffins? Would still be some prep but definitely less than say putting things onto skewers or chopping anything, more just washing fruit & splitting into little bowls. This comes out at around £200 inc biodegradable pots. The venue also limit how much Prosecco we can serve as welcome drinks so giving Buck’s Fizz as an option means it would stretch further.

    Am I missing any other options? Would you enjoy croissants and fruit as a reception option? I read a mumsnet thread this morning all about how it’s super cheap not to offer ‘substantial canapés’ and very rude to guests… but we are already spending so much money! I can also warn guests the main meal won’t be served until 3 so to have a early lunch snack if they’ll get hungry…

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I will say, people have strong feelings when they are hungry and there is no food, especially if it’s a traditional mealtime and so they were expecting food, in meal-size amounts. (My daughter is getting married, and this was the feedback when she polled her friends about things that had impressed them one way or the other at past weddings.)

      I would be sure people know when the substantial food is happening. And some plates with cookies and crackers for any long foodless stretches are a good idea. Good food > okay food >>>>> no food.

      1. shteripecas*

        some plates with cookies and crackers for any long foodless stretches are a good idea
        I’d add: cheese/salami and maybe fruit. Because just cookies and crackers are not quite substantial enough to tide people over.

    2. WellRed*

      I appreciate that you don’t want guest to go hungry but the way to do that is schedule the whole event mindfully. I would never expect a sit down meal, separate dessert session and then a buffet again. I like the popcorn idea. It’s fun and I personally like it as a quick snack to stave off hunger pangs.

      1. WellRed*

        Oh and no fruit. I’ve never seen it eaten at events. Work conferences, birthdays etc. waste of time.

      2. londonedit*

        It’s traditional in the UK to have the ‘wedding breakfast’ as a sit-down meal after the ceremony (though it can be a couple of hours after) and then cake-cutting and then a separate evening buffet. A lot of people invite closer family and friends to the ceremony/sit-down meal and evening do and then wider acquaintances join the party just for the evening, and it is expected that there will be a later-evening buffet for them and for the guests in general.

        Having said that, I don’t think I’ve been to a wedding where there’s been an extensive canapé offering before the sit-down meal. I definitely wouldn’t expect croissants and fruit etc! Usually the guests mill around with drinks and maybe some nibbles while the bride and groom have photos taken, and then everyone goes in for the meal. I don’t think it’s rude not to provide ‘substantial canapés’, I think that’s just Mumsnet being weird. If you want to offer nibbles with drinks between the ceremony and reception proper then I’d go with something light and simple – shop-bought canapés would be absolutely fine.

        2. approaching panic*

          It’s more that ‘shop bought’ canapés don’t really seem to exist? Otherwise I would 100% buy them! There are lots of options for things to shove in an oven but we don’t have access to a full kitchen & anyone who could in theory be at the cottages a few min walk away putting stuff in the oven will be.. watching the ceremony.

          1. londonedit*

            Do M&S or Waitrose have anything in their party food selection? M&S has a wider range of food to order than they have in the shops. Otherwise I’m sure people would be absolutely fine with crisps, nuts, crudités and dips, that sort of thing. I don’t think anyone is going to expect to be fed before the main meal.

            1. approaching panic*

              I’ve looked at those, sainsburys maybe has a few options but would be basically cold pork pies/sausage rolls or sandwiches (maybe sandwiches would be fine but feels a bit odd if we’re also doing in the evening?). The other shops are either too far away to collect from or don’t do their party food range at the location at all. (There are a lot more options in London/big cities but that’s not where we’re getting married).

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          Absolutely this if you want canapes–a good rule of thumb is two or three things (instead of lots of things) and nothing that drips, sprays, or otherwise might ruin an outfit before the picture taking.

          Remember, the idea is just to carry people over to the actual meal. Too many/too fancy will cost a lot, and many people might fill up and then not want the expensive dinner.

    3. Maggie*

      When is the ceremony in all this? And what is served on the cold buffet? I think a breakfast buffet with grapes and yogurt would be really odd to have at a wedding but I’m in the US and not the UK so I might not know the traditions. I would say the number 1 complaint I’ve ever had about weddings, and that I’ve heard from other people is that there’s not enough food. I’ve never been to a wedding where I felt like there was ample food except maybe 1, and even then they barely had any appetizers and people literally got ONE bite of ONE of the apps if that. So I would absolutely err on the side of more food and more substantial food.

      1. approaching panic*

        The cold buffet later on will be sandwiches/pies/pastries.
        I think overall there will be decent quantities of food but you’re right that people get hungry (especially when drinking!) and given the ceremony is at 1, if people dont eat anything between breakfast and 3.30pm that’s a recipe for getting hungry and grumpy.

        It’s definitely not traditional to have a breakfast buffet :p but it is fairly standard to have canapés, they’re just expensive/IMO bad value per quantity of food. My concern is we could spend £1000 on canapés and people would still be a bit hungry because they’re getting like 3 bites each :)

    4. Jen Erik*

      What time are you getting married? And are you doing photos between the ceremony and the meal?
      To me 3 to 3.30 sounds like a normalish time to eat at a wedding, unless you’re getting married quite early. The canapes would be nice, but not necessary unless there’s a lengthy wait. (I’d do a homemade shortbread biscuit with the drinks, but I’m old!)

      1. approaching panic*

        Ceremony is 1pm and yes we’ll be doing some photos between ceremony and meal. Shortbread is a good idea – maybe I should just focus on making nice cheese biscuits & leave it at that!

        1. Jen Erik*

          That’s the time my daughter got married & our thought was that for a 1pm wedding you know to eat beforehand. I don’t think that’s too long to wait to eat: feels very standard to me.
          Hope you have a lovely day!

    5. Not A Manager*

      I don’t quite understand the timing of your ceremony and your meals, but it sounds to me like you have lovely and very elegant meals already planned. Your concern is just that there’s a period between the ceremony and the first meal where people might get quite hungry and legitimately expect food?

      If that’s the case, then I personally would go for very substantial cheese and crackers platters. They’re not super pricy if you just get normal type cheeses and big boxes of mainstream crackers. IDK where you are, but in the U.S. I would absolutely go to Costco for all of that. Cut the cheese into cubes and put out some frilly toothpicks and you can call it a day.

      If you want to be fancier/more substantial, you can add (1) veggies, chips and dip. Again, carrot and celery sticks are fine, you don’t need a million veggies unless you want them. (2) Some kind of fruit platter. (3) Sliced meats, again in Costco type packages.

      People who are very hungry can make a reasonable meal out of this stuff, you’ve broadly covered people who do/don’t eat meat/dairy, and people who just want a nibble can have a nibble.

    6. Sloanicota*

      Having been a bridesmaid I think 7 times now, I would lean away from anything that adds “just one more little thing” for day-of prep. It all seems to really add up and sort of snowball, especially if it’s *got* to be done that morning / right before the ceremony – it always seems like there’s enough un-anticipated problems to solve that there’s no room for deliberately leaving tasks for yourself and your wedding party in those times. I’d say *only* agree to entirely optional tasks that you won’t mind if you don’t get done. I like the popcorn idea if you’re really worried people will be hungry (although can the invites or other day-of communication just include the food schedule so people know how hungry to come?).

      1. approaching panic*

        Yes we will tell people when food will be available. Agree on the jobs although I do have tonnes of siblings and ~3 friends not in the bridal party but staying onsite, who have also offered to help out. I definitely don’t want to over stress anyone so aiming towards more ‘get something out of the fridge & put it on a tray’, but there may be enough people to do that.

    8. Still*

      If you’re no longer doing cheese and crackers at the end, is there a reason you can’t have them as your missing snack earlier on? You said it was cheap and easy, right? Is there some rule about not serving cheese and crackers before 3pm?

      1. approaching panic*

        No not at all – but right after the ceremony there’s going to be lots of people (100ish guests) all in one place trying to get nibbles at the same time – so something that is on trays and grabbable with one hand whilst holding a drink (like.. canapés) would be more practical than trays of cheese & nibbles that would be inside on a table & require people to potentially queue. If it had been later in the evening I think it would naturally have been more spread out when people want food and they would already have a seat so more practical to use plates rather than be stood up with drinks.

        1. Not A Manager*

          Do you have a warehouse type store that has frozen prepared food? Like Costco in the US or like Auchan in France? Those places often have large packages of frozen mini-quiches, empanadas, etc. If your caterers/venue staff/volunteer friends can pop them into a hot oven and put them on trays, this might solve your problem.

          You could also split the difference, with some stations of “hand food” available, but also filling in with cheese, crackers and snacks on the indoor table. That might cost less while alleviating the queue.

          1. approaching panic*

            Yea a combination of canapé esque things and table snacks might work :)
            Cheap oven canapés do exist but the venue does not have an oven available unfortunately. (The outside caterer will be using a tent outside with gas, but can’t really ask them to heat up supermarket canapés if we’re not paying for theirs)

    9. Jackalope*

      My biggest input is that you don’t want to have to do anything for these snacks except maybe take lids off or something. You’re going to be too busy and your close attendants will also be busy. My experience would suggest something like cheese and cracker trays, veggie trays, fruit and cheese trays, etc (don’t know if this available in the UK, but local stores here will do sandwich trays with small croissant sandwiches for cheap)….. Anything where you don’t have to make it.

    10. Phryne*

      Maybe virus of nuts and cheese nibbles and crisps? Easy to set up, essay to nibble with a glass in hand and does fill up against the worst hunger pangs.

    11. Generic Name*

      I think however you decide to handle the food, please people know in advance the schedule/menu of what you’ll be serving. That way people (especially families with small children) can plan to bring snacks or meals or plan to leave the venue to get food when they need to have an actual meal. I think everyone understands how expensive weddings are, but it’s absolutely miserable to be a guest trapped at a venue with no food when you are absolutely starving/hangry.

    12. Scientist*

      Every single wedding I’ve been to in the past ~eight years (probably 15 of them) has had a ceremony that started somewhere between 3:30 and 5 pm, followed by snacks and the bar opening for 1-2 hours, followed by dinner (supper). Then there are snacks brought out 8-9 pm when people have now been drinking for 4+ hours and need more food (sometimes cheese, meats, crackers, etc; often several pizzas.) (This is in the US.) It sounds like your whole schedule is shifted earlier in the day, so it’s hard for me to picture! 3:30 is a weird time to eat supper. If I need basically a late lunch at 3 pm, I feel like after drinking and dancing, I’m going to be very hungry again by 7 pm. Is ordering lots of nice pizzas a think in the UK?

      1. approaching panic*

        We’re already doing the main meal and the second (fairly substantial, the buffet will be bigger than a snack) meal later on for when people get hungry again. I guess the difference is that because the whole thing is starting 2-3 hours earlier the total time is longer. We will definitely warn people when food will and won’t be available and there’s no venue restrictions so people will kids have been told they can bring snacks (/all the food for their kid if they have a fussy eater and a packed lunch is just easier).

        1. Scientist*

          Ah, I had missed that the substantial buffet later in the day was still happening! That all sounds very reasonable then.

      2. londonedit*

        Wedding ceremonies are traditionally earlier in the UK (there certainly used to be a rule that you had to be married before sunset, not sure if that’s still a thing but I think that’s the origin of it). It’s pretty standard for the ceremony to be at 1pm and last about an hour, then you either travel to the reception venue if it’s a church or register office wedding, or at a dedicated wedding venue then you’ll have milling-around time while photos are taken and the reception space is set up, and that’s when people will have drinks and nibbles. Then the sit-down meal is probably 3pm or 3.30, that goes on quite a while because it’ll be three courses and with that you also have the speeches, then again after the sit-down meal you’ll have milling-around time while the tables are cleared and the room is made ready for the evening do and dancing. More guests may join for just the evening, where you’ll have a DJ or band from about 6.30 or 7pm until midnight, with cake cutting and then a late-night buffet at say 8 or 9pm for all the guests including those who have just come for the evening do.

        It is a weird time to eat a main meal, but it’s just how wedding days go here and everyone expects it. If you’re a guest, you make sure you have a hearty breakfast.

    13. Anonymous Koala*

      Could you do charcuterie trays? In the US you can get fancy meats/cheeses/fruit/nuts from grocery stores and assemble them ahead of time on big trays, then just have your venue staff refrigerate them and open the lids up for your guests immediately after the ceremony. Otherwise if you really want tray-passed cold apps, maybe a variety of finger sandwiches and sweet and savory scones would work?

      1. ThatOtherClare*

        This was my thought too. Colourful platters/cheese boards are easy. Throw any old round cheese in the middle, a little bowl of basil or roasted capsicum pesto above it, some grapes on one side, dried apricots next to them, a handful of dried nuts on the other side, add a line of sliced cold meat and a line of crackers and that’s a basic platter done. Rinse and repeat x20. You can leave them around on tables for people to form little rings around to snack and chat and then they don’t even have to chase down the waiter with the nice brie. As a guest, that’s what I’d enjoy :)

  41. Zzzzzz*

    Best binoculars on a budget: heading to the rain forest soon for vaca… would love any recs for a good pair of binoculars on the smaller side, that won’t break the bank (which I know can mean many things but I’ll first take the recs and then do the math). Thank you!

    1. MissCoco*

      Not exactly budget as I think they are right around average for a quality pair of binoculars, but my husband got me the Nikon Prostaff 3s a few years ago and I love them. Great optics and really easy to use. I have the 8x42s but they also come in an 8×30 which is pretty compact and run about $110 according to my quick google.

    2. Kay*

      Well -obviously budget means so many different things – but the best performance for the money was Eagle Optics. They were basically the exact same thing as Vortex, but for a lesser price. They are no longer produced under that brand name, although Vortex is mid range (read not budget) and a great product. I would maybe see if you can find a mint condition used Eagle Optics, or consider Vortex.

      I hate to say this but rain forests are usually dark and dense – the better binoculars for this are on the pricier side. It sounds like you are new to this so the one very good thing going for you is that you likely won’t need anything more advanced or with longer range (which also means heavier and typically requires a more experienced hand). Personally I think an 8×42 is a great overall pair and don’t recomend you go higher than this. There are websites, local birding stores, etc. that will do side by side comparisons of models to help you narrow things down.

    3. Jay*

      I recently bought binoculars for my job and did quite a bit of research on the topic.
      Long story short, look for marine binoculars (7X50) for a wide field of view, ruggedness and waterproofing at a reasonable price. Look for “Used, Excellent Condition” for exceptional deals for a product that is almost certainly new in it’s original packaging.
      If you want something with a narrower field of view, but better magnification, you can go for something like a 20X50, or even more so.
      I found that Celestron – Cometron 7×50 Bincoulars are pretty fantastic for a very low price (about $35.00 or so). You might find them a bit bulky, though.

  42. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

    anyone ever manage to get a tourist visa for a family member after a rejection? is there any point in engaging a lawyer for help?

    my husband is from a country in southern Africa but has been in the US for 20 years and is a citizen. we tried to get a visa for his sister for our wedding in 2016 when she was still a citizen of their unstable home country but was living in a new country legally with her husband and owned her own business. she was denied as a “flight risk”. we tried again in 2023 after she became a citizen of her new stable country. her business was even more successful and she’d bought a car, was building her own house, and sending her son to a good school (thankfully had divorced her husband). she was denied again with the only reason given being that she was denied in 2016. it doesn’t help that her business is a nail salon which our government sees as something she could pick up here and hence not leave. we are of course frustrated. she doesn’t want to move here ! we do not want her to move here! but we want to see her and it would be easier and cheaper for her to visit since we have a toddler and another on the way (and she is in malaria zone so we have to wait till the kids can take the meds).
    anyone have any tips?

      1. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

        sure but my questions now are 1) has anyone ever had any luck after a rejection? and 2) did that involve a lawyer?

        obviously each case is individual but right now we’re curious if others have ever managed it

        1. Observer*

          sure but my questions now are 1) has anyone ever had any luck after a rejection? and 2) did that involve a lawyer?

          And you’re being told that the answer to #2 is “absolutely”. I’d say that at this point, any chance for getting this taken care of is going to need a lawyer. AND that what others have had luck with would not really be relevant as this is highly fact specific – even if we knew the countries involved. Without that? Nothing anyone says is going to be relevant.

    2. Femme d'Afrique*

      I’m not sure what a lawyer can do here since a visa isn’t considered to be a “right.”

      As US citizens though, I think you may have some luck contacting your local representative (not sure: Congressperson? Senator? IDK) and asking for their advice about how to navigate the State Department bureaucracy. I *think* there’s a way to petition them to reconsider a visa refusal, although I have no idea how often they overrule embassies. Good luck!

      1. Observer*

        I’m not sure what a lawyer can do here since a visa isn’t considered to be a “right.”

        Lawyers are not only about “rights” but about navigating the system and figuring out if there is a legal path to something other than the thing you tried that didn’t work. I don’t know if that exists in this particular case, but if the OP wants to pursue it, a good immigration lawyer would be who I talk to.

    3. WS*

      My cousin’s wife (an Australian citizen) is from a country in southern Africa and she only once managed to get a family member a visitor’s visa, which was her mother when their first child was born. She was refused at first but appealed via her local MP and eventually got the visa. That was is 2015 and she hasn’t been able to manage it again, so they and the kids are over there visiting right now. Immigration laws have got ridiculously strict for political posturing reasons and I’m sorry your family is caught up in this.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      I’ve been there (am there right now, tbh) and I would highly suggest an experienced immigration attorney, and to pick a package (most of these types of things are billed on a flat-rate scheme) that includes at least one Zoom coaching session with your SIL so the lawyer can go over what to say/ not say in her interview. Once your visa has been denied it is very, very hard to get immigration to change their minds, and having an experienced person guide you through the process will be invaluable.

  43. ShroomLog*

    Recommendations for stores, online or offline, to buy dusters? I’m talking about the long-cardigan clothing piece. I’m looking for those in lighter summer materials as well as heavier winter materials.

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I recently bought one from Banana Republic Factory. Haven’t received it yet but I’m generally happy with what I buy from there.

  44. city slicker*

    So the post about the person reacting badly to the barking dog made me think to ask this question here.

    I’m living in a larger apartment building after years in a 4-unit condo building, where my unit was on the top floor. I’m shocked at how much sound carries in this apartment building, but the issue is not that I’m bothered by my neighbor’s sounds, I’m just absolutely paranoid I’m annoying them by my day to day activities. Like I once dropped my keys in a dish by my front door, and my neighbor’s dog started barking like crazy, and I felt so guilty for upsetting the dog and disturbing the peace. I’ve also noticed I get up and go to bed earlier than most of the people in the building, so if I drop something while getting ready, I’m worried I’ve woken up everyone around me.

    I have a feeling most of this is in my head and will book some sessions with my mental health team to address that, but what should I be mindful of to feel like I’m being a good neighbor and what should I just let go?

    I should also add this is a short-term rental situation (month-to-month lease through a third-party broker, not an airbnb), so I don’t know anyone and am not sure my neighbors would care for me to introduce myself when I’m going to move out in a few more months.

    1. Morning Reading*

      I think you can set your noise markers at about the same point that you perceive your neighbors to observe. You might be more careful not to be noisy first thing in the morning, but that means not stomping and shouting. It does not require tip toeing or keeping your radio off. It’s like going with the normal speed of traffic around you, whether it is faster or slower than the stated limit.
      This applies unless you are noticeably hard of hearing, in which case, your perception of how loud things are may be off. Also, a dog can hear things people can’t so…. I don’t know, if the dog hears you and barks and then disturbs other people, is it your fault? Hm…

      1. Sloanicota*

        As a dog owner, I would say no. It’s my job to train my dog not to bark at things I don’t want him to bark at. I don’t blame others for “causing” him to bark (at least, not when I’m being rational – I admit I get a brief spark of annoyance when we’re out walking and That One Dog he loathes is sure to pop up right on our path – but still, I know it’s not the other dog or owner’s problem, it’s ours).

    2. WellRed*

      You are overthinking it. Unless you are cranking music or roller skating if having people com and go at all hours you’re fine and allowed to live your life. Sure there’s unreasonable people in the world. In your example, I’d probably not notice you dropped stuff but would definitely notice the barking dog which is far more aggravating if one wants to be aggravated.

    3. Sloanicota*

      Hmm, it *does* sound like you’re really affected by the idea that you’re making noise, beyond what’s necessary. I could suggest things like putting down plush rugs or something, but it sounds more like something to address in your own attitude. After all, this is a give- and- get- type situation; the neighbors get to make noise, and you get to make noise too. Obviously we should all try to be considerate, but it sounds like you already are. Is it because you don’t know these neighbors so you can picture them as anonymously very angry with you? Would introducing yourself to them help or hurt?

    4. RagingADHD*

      “I don’t know anyone and am not sure my neighbors would care for me to introduce myself when I’m going to move out in a few more months.”

      I am not sure whether you meant “I don’t know whether it would make a difference,” or “I think it might be an imposition to introduce myself.”

      If you mean the second thing, no. There is not a downside to introducing yourself. It’s a pleasant thing to do regardless of how long you will be there.

    5. shteripecas*

      So, I live in a building where we hear our neighbours a lot. I’d say that your neighbours can hear you – as evidenced by the dog barking. However, aiming for zero noise is unrealistic in this situation; it’s also putting more effort into your side of things than your neighbours are putting into theirs. If you were their long-term, I’d say get as thick underlay and carpet as you can afford – but only to deal with your own guilt, not because it’s “expected” of you. Since you’re there short term, if it really bothers you, get a cheap floor covering for where you drop things a lot: note, however, that I think this is unnecessary – it’s just if you really want to feel proactive about it. Otherwise, noise is the price one pays for living in society.

    6. Busy Middle Manager*

      I appreciate your concern as a renter with loads of experience with loud neighbors. I am so grateful for the current people above my head. What I don’t get is, most of the internet thinks high density walkable towns are the way we should go. But when you ask the same people about noise or quality of life concerns, they tell you it’s none of your business. Well, that’s the exact reason people eventually move out to the ex-urbs or suburbs. If we’re going to pretend quality of life concerns are not real or just people whining, then people will self-select out of areas they would otherwise find livable if we have an honest conversation about how we all impact each other. City life is a stream of late night fireworks, car alarms, boom boxes, car horns, garbage trucks vibrating the building, or sometimes just a group of people having a conversation outside your window as you’re trying to sleep. Not to mention that so many buildings have thin walls here. As per you specifically, if the dog heard that, you probably have thin walls. But I think as long as you’re not wearing hard shoes as you walk around in the early morning, you should be good.

      1. Sloanicota*

        We really do need to figure out realistic construction approaches that significantly dampen sound. You know it’s possible. It would make a huge difference to people!

        1. Llellayena*

          They exist, but it’s dependent on developers not cutting corners to save on construction costs and on the workers actually installing the wall/ceiling. Especially in rental, the developer attitude is “if they don’t like it, they’ll move out and we’ll have another tenant in a week.” Also, the post-construction sound testing to make sure it was actually constructed right to meet sound code (yes, there are codes regulating sound transmission) never happen. So the construction guy who filled the air gap with plywood, or missed a section of acoustic insulation short circuiting the sound mitigation never gets the work corrected.

          1. Sloanicota*

            Yeah, this is my theory, we don’t take it seriously enough. I wish it could be prioritized more because I don’t see how we’ll ever get more people to choose density housing with the current state of things. I’m trying to convince my folks not to automatically rule out apartment style retirement communities and this is their number one concern.

            1. Llellayena*

              “Oh but the people needing senior living are going deaf so they can’t hear their neighbors anyway!” Said the client building the assisted living facility to avoid the better quality wall type between units…

        2. amoeba*

          It’s absolutely possible! Have lived in apartments in cities my whole life and the differences are *huge* – I’ve had everything from “you can basically have a big party and your neighbours won’t even know if you keep the windows closed” from “you hear every step and every conversation”.

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      My rule for apartment living is: if it’s a one off I’ll usually write it off. If somebody is regularly doing something actively annoying/rude/illegal I will complain.

      No one reasonable is going to expect a monastery like calm in an urban environment.

    8. Observer*

      Like I once dropped my keys in a dish by my front door, and my neighbor’s dog started barking like crazy, and I felt so guilty for upsetting the dog and disturbing the peace.

      You’re definitely over-thinking this. The noise you describe is so minimal that any dog barking like crazy was not your problem. Or possibly, it wasn’t actually your keys that set it off. I hope that is the case, or that this reaction was a one-off for this dog, because if not, I feel bad for it. That’s waaay too reactive for the poor animal to be able to be comfortable in an apartment block. Especially if it’s not on the top floor.

      but what should I be mindful of to feel like I’m being a good neighbor and what should I just let go

      The concept of core hours works well here. There is a block of time where things like TV / Music / heavy activity (eg moving furniture or many kinds of exercise) should not be done. I think that in most places 10:pm – 6:00 am is reasonable. You should try to be a bit more mindful of how much noise you are making for a shorter block (like 11:00 pm -5:00pm)

      Beyond that? I think that you just live your life and don’t do anything crazy. I think that any time of day, if someone set up their drums and started practicing as a beginner, that would be a problem for most people. Opening and closing your door without being ultra careful that it doesn’t close too hard? Not a problem. If you need to move heavy furniture, do it by day but it’s just fine to move smaller stuff around. etc.

      The sounds of other people living is just one of the things that comes with high density housing.

  45. Pam Adams*

    Try Natalie Kritzer. She has a lot of short fiction and a few novels. Look for So Much Cooking- free on tor.com

    1. OtterB*

      Not sure what this was a reply to – was it someone looking for cozy fiction? If so, I love Kritzer and So Much Cooking, but that should have tw for pandemic.

      Also, if you haven’t read it, Kritzer has a recent piece in Uncanny Magazine called The Year Without Sunshine. Excellent story about people in a natural disaster / challenge pulling together to help each other.

  46. Hamster*

    I thought this would be a fun question to ask – what’s a beloved grocery store item that’s been discontinued or changed?

    For me it’s two things – a mint mojito mix from
    Crystal light. It’s been years since I’ve seen it in stores.

    Another is dried, sweetened strawberries from target. Had those Last year. These are diff from the freeze dried as they’re soft not crunchy. They were so good.

    One thing that’s changed to me is the stouffers frozen dinner grandmas chicken and rice bake. The chicken feels very weird to me when I eat it. Super crumbly. The taste is the same but I was weirded out by the chicken.

    What do you miss?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      There was a roasted salsa that was made on site at a local grocery store. I would always have a container on hand and then one day it was gone. I’ve yet to find a comparable replacement.

      Also, Bai Bubbles was recently discontinued, which was my typical lunch time drink. I’ve tried alternatives and none come close for me yet.

    2. HannahS*

      Welch’s no longer exists in Canada. When I was a kid, they sold frozen concentrate that was such a convenient product.

      Ritz crackers no longer contain butter. Devastating.

      1. WellRed*

        My mother is forever annoyed that saltines now are sea salt or unsalted, rather than whatever they used to be salted with.

    3. Been there, done that*

      Nestle briefly made brownie bite and cookie bite candy bars. I imagine they’d taste super-sweet to me now, but dang, I still miss them.

    4. Girasol*

      I used to miss Campbells condensed black bean soup, my favorite thing to find in my lunch box thermos when I was a little kid. But I just learned that a can of refried black beans reconstituted as if it were Campbells is almost as good and just as easy.

    6. ImOnlyHereForThePoetry*

      Frozen grape jelly filled doughnuts

      My mom used to buy them in the 70s. They were reheated in the oven and we would eat them hot. I am sure they were not as delicious as I remember them to be but I loved those things as a kid.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        It’s like pop tarts. Some bakeries near me now make high-end pop tarts. Which are good, in a pleasant pastry sense. But they do not taste like Saturday morning cartoons and a free and open weekend before you–for that, you need Kellogg’s strawberry pop tarts.

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      Neutrogena used to have a nail polish, in clear and in translucent white, designed to wear off over a few days. It let you give your nails a little bit of protection and a slightly more polished appearance, which is pretty much what I’m looking for in beauty products–simple, and a slight smoothing out. I was so annoyed when they went away.

    8. CTT*

      There was a bathroom cleaner I would buy at the grocery store that was from one of the major brands (I think it was Scrubbing Bubbles) that I loved because it really cut through soap scum on my tub like it was nothing. After two years they discontinued it, and all I can think is that there was something incredibly toxic in it to make it so effective.

    9. Dark Macadamia*

      One time I accidentally got chorizo frozen “meatless grounds” (like ground beef but plant based) instead of the regular flavor and they were SO good. I have not found them at any of my local grocery stores since.

    10. Chanel No. Pi*

      Trader Joe’s discontinued their caramel popcorn, year before last IIRC. I have yet to find another brand that I like as much. Mount Olive discontinued their Deli Style Dill relish. After trying Vlasic, Heinz and the store brand, I decided to settle for the regular dill relish from Mount Olive. The others are all so mushy.

    11. Enough*

      Kraft Pimento cheese
      Nestle Famous Chocolate wafers
      Hebrew National salami
      Hershey caramel kisses

      I have noticed a difference in frozen foods. Less meat mainly. I suspect it’s all about cost.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Shredded jalepeno cheese. I use it in a LOT of recipes and for a while I could get bags of it, but now it’s just in blocks and I get to grate my fingers.

        1. Emma*

          If you have a food processor, they can grate cheese! We have a basic Hamilton Beach model (checked Amazon and it’s now $50 but used to be $30, sigh). It has a shredding disk and can grate a block of cheese in 10 seconds or so. The Budget Bytes website has tips for freezing cheese – you could consider grating a bunch and freezing it in portions!

          I just googled budget bytes freeze cheese.

      2. Girasol*

        Me too on Famous Wafers! I’m crazy about famous wafer ice box cake, especially when it’s made with mocha whipped cream. Thin oreos are a decent substitute but just not the same.

      3. Maotseduck*

        Hebrew National salami is still around, just frustratingly hard to find. So don’t give up! My local Publix recently started carrying it but I’ve heard struggles to find it in my Facebook Jewish food group.

    12. Indolent Libertine*

      Do you have Trader Joe’s near you? They have freeze dried strawberries that are crunchy. Grandkid calls them “strawberry chips.”

    13. Knighthope*

      Trader Joe’s Mushroom Turnovers! I cut out the recipe from Good Housekeeping magazine ages ago, but TJ’s were so convenient!

    14. Charlotte Lucas*

      Planter’s Cheez Balls – We used to eat them while playing cards.

      Boca used to do a veggie smoked sausage that tasted so much like smoked kielbasa.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Weirdly, I can no longer find canned flaked coconut, which is an ingredient in some of my older recipes.

    15. Elizabeth West*

      This is old school, but Sunshine Bakeries saltines used to come as a longer cracker, like two singles stuck together. Think a large rectangle rather than a small square. Not one saltine cracker is like that anymore. I really miss those. Also Hydrox cookies. I really don’t like Oreos — they have a weird sour taste to the cookies. I’d rather just get cheap generic sandwich cookies instead.

      1. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

        Since you mentioned cookies — the old chocolate chip Girl Scout cookies from Burry that used to be sold in the ’70s. Like crack.

        1. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

          And the old recipe Little Debbie’s Swiss cake rolls and Keebler Fudge Sticks. They tasted better when they had more of those fats in them that clog up your blood vessels.

    16. Maryn*

      Crystal Light powdered concentrate is still around, in both makes-a-pitcher and flavors-a-large-glass/water bottle sizes. We drink it several times a week. Might be time to visit another grocery store chain? Or order it online–a fast check shows Amazon carries it.

      What I miss most is weirdly specific: Wegmans Pan-Searing Flour, which was fine-milled flour seasoned with just the right amount of sea salt and white pepper, and came in a shaker. I used it at least once a week for years. First they changed the formulation to something that was not very good (and often gummy on cooking), then discontinued it altogether. My attempts to recreate it have failed.

      1. Tx_Trucker*

        I have never used Wegmans. But I am familiar with pan searing flour from restaurant work. Even though the ingredient list probably has wheat flour as the main ingredient, it’s not your usual all purpose flour. To recreate it, you need to use a pre-gelled flour, aka instant flour. Think of it like using instant oatmeal versus the slow cook version. If you are in the USA, try looking for Wondra brand flour in a canister, and add your preferred seasoning to it.

      2. Hamster*

        Oh yeah I see diff flavors of CL all the time! But that specific mojito mix I haven’t seen since maybe 2014? I checked Amazon earlier today haha and it didn’t come up :-(

    18. The Dude Abides*

      Canada Dry Green Tea Ginger Ale

      When I was weaning myself off caffeine, it was my go-to soda.

    19. Brad Pitt eating with Penguins*

      The Rye flavor of triscuits. It was the PERFECT complement to a slice of sharp cheddar. Nothing else comes close.

    20. My Brain is Exploding*

      Trader Joe used to have a rice mix – brown rice medley – that was high in fiber and contained long grain brown rice, black barley, and daikon radish seeds. Aldi recently discontinued its light blueberry yogurt. I know there are other things but I can’t think of them right now!

    21. California Dreamin’*

      There used to be a bottled key lime salad dressing that I used to marinate pork and vegetables before grilling. It was a favorite dish of ours. Then at some point the dressing abruptly disappeared (I can’t remember the brand but I think the whole brand disappeared) and in all these years I’ve never found a substitute. All the lime vinaigrettes I can find now are cilantro lime, and I happen to be one of those no-cilantro folks.

    22. goddessoftransitory*

      Granola! Specifically Quaker Oats granola–our store has discontinued it out of nowhere. We found an okay substitution but it comes in a smaller box and we have to constantly replenish.

    23. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

      Tab — I was so sad when they discontinued it.
      Pepsi Light — Lemony goodness!
      Sara Lee Chocolate Bavarian Creme pie/cake whatever they called it — heaven in a slice.
      The peanut and crisped rice Chunky chocolate squares — just liked them.

    24. Dicey Tillerman*

      Trader Joe’s tomatillo and roasted chili salsa, with the yellow lid. I finally thought to ask about it and the nice cashier was very sorry to tell me that it had been discontinued.

    25. Hamster*

      I suspected TJ was going to be on this list just cz their inventory is forever changing lol. It’s like as soon as i love it, it’s gone!

      What’s worse is when there’s something my kid likes, and they get rid of haha. She loved their oatmeal balls. Aldi made them too and we stocked up but those eventually became discontinued (or limited/seasonal not sure). I have yet to find any other brands in stores. Off to making from
      Scratch it is!

    26. Jay*

      -Crown Pilot Crackers. If you get it, you get it. If you don’t, I will never be able to explain it.
      -Hostess Pudding Pies. If they still made these, I would have died of Pudding Poisoning decades ago. If they still exist, please do not tell me, as I want to live!
      -Not lost and gone forever, but can’t be found anywhere near me: Brasswells Savory Sirloin Steak Sauce. Less vinegar-ish and more molasses-ish than most commercial steak sauces. It is just SOOOOOO good on a grilled London Broil and Munster sandwich.
      -When I was very young, they made these “milk shake” things that came in cardboard cartons in the grocery store dairy section. I remember nothing about them other than that I loved them to distraction.
      -When I was growing up, my folks had a vacation cabin in New Hampshire. It was, at the time, way, WAY out in the wilderness, no paved roads, that kind of thing. I loved it there. Well, nearby was an old ice cream shop called Seven Lakes. Their Black Raspberry ice cream remains, to this day, the best ice cream I have ever eaten in my life.

      1. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

        Yeah, there’s a whole genre of “not available near me but I wish I could have it” out there! Bernea Farms onion dip from Michigan . . . Becky’s BBQ from Rhode Island . . . Lo Coco’s tomato sauce from Berkeley . . . .

    28. Alex*

      Ben and Jerrys changed their Chubby Hubby ice cream a number of years ago. It used to be chocolate covered peanut butter FILLED pretzels, and now it is chocolate pretzel with peanut swirls, and it is just not the same. Not nearly as peanut buttery and just an overall downgrade. Boo.

      And of course if anyone was ever a fan of a trader joe’s product, well, it’s probably gone because they cycle in and out their products and continually devastate their fans. I have a whole long list of discontinued TJ faves.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Yves Rocher has some arnica hand and nail and lavender foot creams that my Mum and I have been using for years. The packaging has changed, and with it the recipes.

        At present, I am buying up tubes of the old stock whenever I see it.

    29. Madame Arcati*

      Absolut vodka in “Cherrys” flavour. So many flavoured/fruit vodkas and gins have loads of sugar and taste like sweeties, but absolut ones don’t – the passion fruit, raspberry and lime ones are lovely and I can still get them but I miss the cherry in, it tasted like fresh cherry fruit not boiled sweets !
      Also Boots (which I think is like US Walgreens?) used to sell big bottles of rose water for a low price – as in a cologne not as in for culinary use. It really smelled of fresh roses and the lavender water was likewise great. Rather aimed at grandmas though so I guess it didn’t sell enough. Sigh. With “proper” perfume being so dear I used to splash it on with gay abandon for work or everyday.

    30. Buni*

      I swear we used to be able to get Dark Chocolate Rich Teas – not Digestives, actual Rich Teas. My friends all think I hallcinated them but I know I’m right!

    31. Other Duties as Assigned*

      I have a few.
      These disappeared in the past year:
      -Oscar Meyer Lean Original Beef Franks
      -Ore-Ida microwave french fries
      -Brach’s Malted Milk Balls

      This item disappeared state by state, but made a brief comeback during the Christmas season a year or so ago:
      -Original flavor (corn chip/yellow bag) Doritos

      These vanished long ago:
      -Post Frosted Rice Krinkles cereal
      -Fanta Red Creme Soda
      -Jell-o Spoon Candy
      -Screaming Yellow Zonkers popcorn snack
      -Adams Corn Curls

    32. My Brain is Exploding*

      A few years ago Butterfingers changed the way the candy is made. I had bought some mini-bars for Halloween and both of us thought they were a bit off. I researched it, and yep. Different. Boo.

    33. And thanks for the coffee*

      Ralston cereal. It cooked quickly and I liked the texture. I got it from Amazon a few years ago, but it was ridiculously expensive.

    34. Nightengale*

      Lipton dehydrated tomato soup packets in a box

      yes they now make it in a microwavable container. No I can’t carry that weight of container to work with me but I could carry the packets. Sigh.

      Thankfully I found California dried apricots at Trader Joes after years of only being able to find Mediterranean ones anywhere.

    35. BikeWalkBarb*

      Color me thrifty: What I miss is the generic “woven wheats” I used to be able to get in place of Triscuits. These and other generics also seem to have been pushed off the shelf by the name brands that pay for placement.

    36. ThatOtherClare*

      Hazelnut spread. Not the chocolate-y kind, hazelnut only. Hazelnut is a delicious flavour on its own and I miss it.

    37. carcinization*

      Emperor’s Choice tea from Celestial Seasonings. I get so mad when I remember that it used to exist!

  47. YeahNo*

    I’m not in the US and am looking into renting a storage unit to put the contents of my apartment while I’m between places. Is it usual that the unit provider accepts no liability for anything, i.e. if the place burns down with everything in it they don’t owe you anything? Storage units are a newish thing here so I’m not sure if I’m being unreasonable or they are. I don’t have homeowners insurance so have no coverage myself.

    2. shteripecas*

      Yes, the unit provider does not accept liability in Canada either. It would be a nightmare from their point of view.

    3. Not A Manager*

      You can purchase 3rd party insurance if you don’t have homeowners or renters insurance that covers it, at least in the U.S. In fact, most companies require that you either have insurance of your own or that you purchase their 3rd party insurance.

    5. allathian*

      Storage units in my area also sell 3rd party insurance that is mandatory for storage renters who can’t prove that they have home insurance, either homeowner’s or home renter’s. The premiums are generally higher than they would be as a part of home insurance.

  48. Zucchini Recipes*

    I have always loved zucchini but the other day I made a veggie stew with roasted veggies, the bulk of which was zucchini (I’m sorry, I don’t know what they’re called in other countries). I couldn’t believe how fabulous the texture became after I roasted them in the olive oil and herbs and then added to the soup to stew for about an hour. I kept wondering when I added cheese to the stew (I didn’t) because the zucchini was so creamy and had the stringy texture (in a good way) of melted cheese. So now I’m more obsessed with them than ever before.

    So….please tell me your favorite zucchini recipes!

    1. shteripecas*

      Sliced in rounds, relatively thick, dip in egg, breadcrumbs and fried in a generous amount of oil.

      1. allathian*

        Mine is a variant that I learned in Spain.

        Slice in rounds, about 8 millimeters (5/16 in) thick. Cover in salt and let sit in the fridge for a few hours to dehydrate them a bit. Wipe off as much of the salt as you can, dip in egg, dip in either breadcrumbs or wheat flour, and fry in a generous amount of (olive) oil.

        Yum!

    2. Phryne*

      Courgette is the other common name for them, it occasionally marrow.
      I usually bake them with some onions and tarragon. When sliced thinly lengthwise you can use them instead of pasta leaves to make a pasta/carb/gluten free lasagne.

    5. ImOnlyHereForThePoetry*

      Zucchini made into zoodles (ie noodles) then sautéed in olive oil.

      Cut longwise into quarters (or sixths for larger ones) marinate in Italian skin for a bit and grilled.

    6. ZucchiniAnon*

      Google “Thomas Keller Zucchini”. it’s less a recipe than a method but something about the cross hatching, searing and roasting makes the zucchini magical. And you can do any type of glaze/topping you can think of. I’ve put bruschetta and sprinkling of Parmesan on top, seen recipes for a miso glazed version which looks amazing and would be great over rice, etc. very flexible.

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      Slice very thin and fan over a plate. Sprinkle with salt, pepper, lemon juice, and a little freshly grated parmesan.

      We ate this all the time on a trip to Costa Rica.

    8. L. Ron Jeremy*

      zucchini sticks are a fam fave. Zucchini Sticks are lightly breaded and fried zucchini that are perfect for dipping in marinara sauce for an appetizer or snack.

    9. Filosofickle*

      My family often made a recipe from Julia Child, her tian de courgettes au riz (zucchini tian). It’s a casserole with rice, onion, and grated zucchini topped with parm and baked. Yum! The recipe can be found online.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      Parmesan roasted zucchini boats. I also like to put them in a quiche with onions and mozzarella cheese. Mmm.

    11. Charlotte Lucas*

      I’m not a fan of it in savory recipes, but I love it in baked goods. I use it in both double chocolate zucchini cake and mock apple crisp (lemon juice and cinnamon have magical powers). Both recipes are from my local farmer’s market/CSA organization’s cookbooks.

      1. ThatOtherClare*

        Here to second this, because it sounds weird but it actually adds a lot of lovely moisture and texture without imparting any flavour. Can recommend.

    12. MissB*

      I love zucchini fritters, using grated zucchini. I use the recipe from Kevin at A Garden for the House.

      I also love using them in an egg bake. The recipe I use includes peppers and onions sliced thin, zucchini sliced like matchsticks, and the eggs have some Parmesan grated in. Easy and yummy.

      I’m forever growing way too much zucchini.

    13. Esprit de l'escalier*

      Your roasted-vegs stew sounds delicious! Can you tell us the recipe name and (if that’s where you got it) the website?

      1. Zucchini Recipes*

        I made it up! But basically, I roasted zucchini, tomatoes, mushrooms, carrots, jalapeno, and onion with olive oil and a little seasoning. I then made a soup base of roasted vegetable bouillon and gochugang paste (got at trader joes). To thicken the broth, I made a roux from flour and garlic flavored ghee. I added the roasted veggies to cook down for about an hour and also let a parmesan rind marinate in it for the duration and took it out before serving. It was insanely spicy because of the three jalapenos in it so I’d remove that if you don’t like spice. The seasonings I like to use in most of my dishes are Trader Joe’s 21 seasoning salute and their onion salt.

    14. California Dreamin’*

      I make a delicious creamy pasta dish that has grated zucchini and basil. I use a recipe from a really old Bon Appetit pasta cookbook but I think you can find similar dishes by searching for pasta “alla pappone.”

    16. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

      Two favorites:

      Zucchini pancakes. Made with grated zucchini with parmesan, onion and herbs, plus a bit of flour and egg to bind it all together. It uses up quite a bit of zucchini too.

      A few zucchini added to a roasted tomato sauce. A pan full of good tomatoes, plus an onion and some garlic, and one or maybe two zucchini. Drizzle generously with olive oil, sprinkle with salt, then roast until very soft. You can either mash it lightly to keep a chunky texture, or puree for smooth. The zucchini adds a meaty texture and oomph to the sauce.

    17. Zucchini Boat*

      Lentil stuffed zucchini! It’s a little labor intensive initially, but preps wonderfully for later.

      Nip tops and tails of the zucchini, then halve down the middle. Take a sharpish spoon and carve out the seeds and insides into a bowl and place the zucchini boats on a lined baking sheet.

      Mash the zucchini guts, then press as much water out as possible (e.g. through a cheese cloth).

      Chop an onion (or half, depending on the size and number of zucchinis), add to the waterless guts, then tomato paste, italian herbs, a bunch of cooked lentils (I use brown), a dash of balsamic vinegar, salt and pepper. Sometimes I add garlic and/or a dash of maple syrup.

      Fill the boats with the lentil and zucchini guts mixture so that it creates a little hill. If prepping for later, stop here and wait up to six hours. Otherwise, pop in the oven at 350ish for 45 minutes or until the zucchini boats have attained the texture you want.

      I top this at the table with sriracha and parmesan cheese.

      I like this recipe because it is delicious, it can be prepped while my child is at daycare and it is SO FLEXIBLE. I never measure and sometimes I add stuff we have in the fridge that needs to be used up.

    19. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I love roasted zucchini with bolognese sauce and zucchini fritters. One of favorite cooking blogs, How Sweet Eats, has a good zucchini fritters recipe, along with several other zucchini recipes.

    20. Zelda*

      Chicken Zucchini Bake:
      2 1/2 c 1/4” to 1/2” zucchini slices
      2 c diced cooked chicken (leftovers from a roast chicken, or pan-seared chicken breasts. We’ve also done this in December with leftover Thanksgiving turkey and frozen zucchini slices)
      1 can condensed cream of chicken soup
      2 T milk
      1/2 t nutmeg
      1 c Bisquick
      1/4 c grated Parmesan cheese
      1 egg
      1 t parsley flakes
      1/4 c melted margarine

      Heat oven to 350 F.
      Arrange zucchini slices in bottom of an 8×8 glass baking dish. (My mother did this by laying the slices flat in the dish in a single layer. When I am trying to plow through a quantity of zucchini, I’ll make about five rows of slices, with the individual slices within the row all overlapping each other by half or two-thirds. You can pack quite a lot of zucchini in this way. It can be useful to put the dish in the microwave and cook for a few minutes to let some of the moisture escape before assembling the rest of the casserole.)
      Top zucchini with chicken. Mix soup, milk, and nutmeg. Spread over chicken.
      Mix Bisquick, cheese, and egg until crumbly. Drizzle with melted margarine and sprinkle with parsley. Spread over soup mixture.
      Bake until golden brown, 25 to 30 min.

      If you like them roasted, you will probably also like them in ratatouille. Cooked zucchini is also good as the bulk of a frittata, with maybe some red bell pepper and/or sausage thrown in; my recipe also uses a good deal of mustard powder and paprika.

      You can sub sliced zucchini in for cucumber in recipes for dill or sweet pickles. Diced raw zucchini stars in a rather nice Greek salad recipe from Fifteen Spatulas.

      (Yes, I am a gardener; how did you know?)

    21. BlueWolf*

      Yellow Squash and Zucchini Casserole From Taste of Home. It’s sort of au gratin, creamy, Parmesan, garlic deliciousness.

    24. carcinization*

      Might be best just to look at all of the zucchini recipes on the Smitten Kitchen site because I make a fair amount of those. The pizza with shredded zucchini, and the “summer squash pasta bake,” for example. I also really like Homesick Texan’s Tex-Mex Squash Casserole (which I make slightly less spicy as I do many of her recipes), and Budget Bytes’ Italian Sausage Stuffed Zucchini Boats/Vegetable Enchilada Casserole. I think “courgette” is the other common term I hear for “zucchini.”

  49. avoiding the mom energy (wilderness edition)*

    Hi all. I am packing and preparing for a wilderness skills course – think similar to Outward Bound. I have wilderness skills (but not these specific skills) and I am in okay shape. I am worried though about being the oldest in our small group by 20-30 years; yeah they could be my children. (Don’t know how old are the instructors.) Any advice from those with comparable experience to fitting in or at least not sticking out and getting the most from this experience (while pleasantly and not offputtingly sharing the experience I may already have)?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      A friend of mine runs these kinds of courses and she gets all sorts of people – those with/without skills already, all ages, etc. I haven’t done one of these courses specifically, but I did recently do a course where I was missing one piece of experience that everyone else had, while I had a lot of experience others didn’t. I was also older than most of the other participants.

      What I found was that no one cared – about any of it. We were all passionate about a topic and came into it with our own experiences and perspectives, so we all really enjoyed learning from each other as much as from the staff.

    2. LNLN*

      Not an Outward Bound experience, but at age 65 I started studying Spanish (literally Spanish 101) at my local community college. The other students were 17-35 years old. I got along with all of them, partnered with them for studying and prepping for tests. In general, they seemed to respond to a friendly demeanor and a genuine interest in them and their experiences. They were a lot more open minded about interacting with me than I expected. I do know that I commonly appear about 10 years younger than my actual age, but even so, I was amazed at how open the other students were to me. I hope you find the same with your group!

    3. Angstrom*

      Sharing experience: I’ve found a good approach to be curiosity: “This is how I learned to do it x years ago. How has it changed?” You can make it clear that you’re there to learn and update your existing skills and build on your experience. Some young people may be curious about the old ways, and you can get a good exchange going.
      With age I’ve found I need more warmup time than the younger folks to get the body loose and moving well, so allow for that.
      Be gracious about accepting help and giving it.
      I doubt age will be an issue — you’re all there because you love doing things outdoors.

    4. Ginger Cat Lady*

      IME the biggest thing you can do to not be offputting when sharing your experiences is to give younger people the kind of respect that you want. They may not have as many experiences as you do, but they do have valuable experiences.
      It’s not the sharing of experience that younger people find offputting. It’s the “you young’uns don’t know nuthin’ so I’ll tell you how it is” approach that is offputting.
      Treat younger people like equals and you’ll be fine.

  50. Esprit de l'escalier*

    Your roasted-vegs stew sounds delicious! Can you tell us the recipe name and (if that’s where you got it) the website?

  51. the Glose e-reader*

    Does anyone have experience with the Glose e-reader? I’d like to buy a HarperCollins book as an e-book, and that’s how they sell them. They inform y0u that it’s not compatible with other e-readers; you can use the Glose app or read the book in a browser tab. I’ve never heard of Glose and I’m hoping to get some user reviews here.

    What’s the reading experience like? This will be a book club read so it needs to display the hard-copy page numbers, and I need to be able to fiddle with the font size and preferably also with the font. Is it easy to use, or are its controls somewhat fussy? Is anything especially annoying about the user interface even if everything else is fine?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      It looks like that’s only true if you buy direct from their site. I see Kindle versions of the same books on their site that say they use Glose. Have you checked the marketplace of the e-reader type you have directly?

    2. WestsideStory*

      Glose isn’t so much an e reader as it is an app-based reading platform, where you can read books on it and share socially, put together and store notes, etc. There are a few of these out there but they are mainly used for textbooks.
      Are you sure you couldn’t find the same Harper book title available on some other reading app like IBooks or Nook or Kobo or Libby?
      Or is the book club itself run on the Glose app? If it’s restricted you might have to use Glose – but as with all “social” apps lock down your privacy controls.
      Being in the biz I’m now curious as to the book title!

      1. the Glose e-reader*

        The book is “Holy Envy”. Glose isn’t required, I just need to get the book and was hoping to buy it directly from the publisher, but I think I’ll give up on that and buy it on amazon.

  52. Justin*

    I am moving, but not very far, to a slightly more suburban area. I don’t like to drive or do household improvement stuff, but it’s a place I can still walk to the commuter train (I’ll drive my son to school if needed).

    I will still see my same coworkers occasionally and friends who live where I live now – it’s really only 8 miles.

    But I want to truly plug into the new community, and I… don’t really know how to make male friends, and I think I need to build some stronger male friendships, so I am going to try and do so.

    Most of my actual friends are people who respect my scholarship (or my work at work) and then later found me charming and interesting. When I don’t lead with the work, I’m anxious and scared because of however many years of social struggles (I’m neurodivergent). And of course, being a person of color, I want to feel comfortable being honest about racism (which I also write about).

    Any general ideas? My wife and I are going to make a “social plan” to help me once we are about to move, which feels pathetic. But, with a toddler and all, I can’t just be going to lots of meet ups and the like.

    Aside from the other parents at his (new) school, how might I meet some folks I truly get along with?

    2. Double A*

      Playdates! Take your kids to the park, school drop off, school events, and meet other dads. Generally moms take on the burden of organizing kids’ social lives but we also reap the benefits of building those relationships. They may not be the deepest relationships you’ll ever have, but having friends with kids the same age is worth it’s weight in gold. And when your kids are really little you get the benefit of picking their friends for them so you can gravitate toward the most interesting looking parents in the room.

      1. RagingADHD*

        My husband had a whole crew of “ballet dads” for a couple of years when the kids were little. They’re teens now, and he still low-key keeps up with a few of those guys.

    3. Elspeth McGillicuddy*

      Hmm. Not a dude, but if you want male friendships, it might make sense to do some of the classic man things that other men tend to do? First things that come to mind are lawn care, gyms, game nights, sports. And yes, home improvement.

      They may not be natural interests of yours, but I’d encourage you to consider giving some of them a try if you haven’t yet, or haven’t since you were an adult. I’ve recently tried several things that I had previously turned up my nose at. Turns out, they were popular for very good reasons.

    4. WS*

      I think the first thing is not to go in expecting to make good friends quickly. Aim to first make lots of acquaintances (and you have a toddler which is a built-in introduction) and let that lead you further. A dad you meet at the playground might be an okay guy but not your kind of person so much, but that acquaintance leads you to his circle and one or more of them might be.

    5. Squidhead*

      Not a parent and not a guy, but: parent-child group swim lessons? faith or service group activities? something athletic/fitness related? What kind of things do you enjoy doing?

    6. Ellis Bell*

      I don’t think the idea to have a plan and be more deliberate about friendship with the support of a spouse is pathetic at all. I’m kind of jealous!

    7. Falling Diphthong*

      General advice:
      • Come up with habits. If you walk the dog every morning at 8 in one spot, you will meet the other people who do that. Taking the same train every day.
      • Parents are a built-in way to meet people at this phase of life–especially as it sounds like your son is at the age where the parents come along on the playdate, rather than dropping off. Be the person who takes your son to stuff.
      • Host stuff. Have a housewarming to which you invite all the immediate neighbors. Invite individual kids from your son’s school for a playdate with a parent. Invite neighbors for dinner. Assume that other people are debating if they should invite you to stuff, and worried that if they make the first move it won’t be perfectly calibrated and so they don’t say anything.

    8. Bird names*

      Captain Awkward has some useful stuff, such as:
      captainawkward [dot] com/2019/11/01/1244-how-do-i-turn-work-friends-into-real-friends/
      I really like how she breaks her advice down, though you can likely skip the middle of this specific post as it is more tangentially related.

    9. Morning Reading*

      In my small town, I notice there are often men in service organizations or clubs, sometimes even male-only clubs like Masons. Food bank, volunteer firefighters, Boy Scout leaders, lions, friends of the library, friends of the parks, chamber of commerce, local event volunteers, etc. don’t know how much they make friends, but shared activities always a good starting place. Oh and the barber shop.

    10. allathian*

      I hope you can let go of the shame over your “social plan” because there’s no need to be ashamed to use the tools you need to make life a bit easier for you.

      Are there any activities in your area for toddlers and dads? You’re lucky in the sense that your child is most probably going to be happy playing with (or alongside) any other kids in their vicinity unless there’s a clear reason why they don’t get along like bullying or significant temperamental differences (especially if one kid is very shy and slow to adapt to changes and the other keeps urging them to play before they’re ready).

      I suggest toddlers and dads because that way you’ll meet men who have at least one thing common with you, a fairly young child. Granted, toddlers and dads groups are more common in some places than others…

      When my son was a baby I joined a mommy group to meet other women in the same situation. Most of the moms remained mere acquaintances and I lost touch with them once our kids went to kindergarten, but I found one true friend among them. We haven’t seen very much of each other in recent years because while my son and her daughter played well enough together when they were toddlers, my son definitely went through a “girl cooties” stage that he’s only now growing out of at nearly 15. The kids were simply situational playmates as toddlers.

      Is your wife more socially adept than you are? If that’s the case, one fairly easy way to expand your social circle is to get to know the spouses of the friends she makes. Maybe you won’t make any new friends that way, but at least friendly acquaintances who may be able to introduce you to other people you click better with.

      I concur with the advice to aim for increasing your network of acquaintances and to give friendship a chance when the opportunity presents itself.

      Good luck!

  53. Bluebell*

    Travel recommendations—has anyone been to Tirana, Albania? It’s at the end of a tour I’m taking next month. We have the option for a side trip as well to Kruja, but my friend and I aren’t sure we want to add another few hours on a bus, or if we just want to stay in Tirana to appreciate art, architecture, or just people watch at a cafe.

    1. sagewhiz*

      Bluebell, I have a client from Albania (now in US). May I fwd your Q to him? If so, will post his response next wknd.

    2. BikeWalkBarb*

      My younger daughter is living there again after having lived there for a short time a couple of years ago. She loves it and highly recommends the coffee culture. Apparently coffee is something like $0.70 a cup?! What kinds of activities do you enjoy? I can ask her what the options are for those in Tirana.

  54. RussianInTexas*

    The very late follow up to my yesterday’s post.
    If you like historical fiction(?) about real people, like Wolf Hall, I recommend these two writers:
    Maurice Druon, The Accursed Kings series.
    Sharon Kay Penman, the various books about Plantagenets and princes of Wales.

    1. Jay*

      Also consider Paul Malmont.
      He writes historical fiction featuring the great Pulp writers, from Lovecraft to Asimov.
      The Amazing, The Astounding, and The Unknown is my all time favorite of his.

  55. Chocolate Teapot*

    My building has a communal room in which all the washing machines are. In other words, each resident has to buy their own washing machine and it’s plumbed in to the water and electricity supply. The room is locked with a key, then we each have keys for the water and electricity connections. There are also rows of washing lines both in the room with the washing machines, and in a small adjacent room, ideal for larger items like sheets and duvet covers.

    For the past few weeks, some people have been leaving their laundry up for days on end, meaning there is nowhere to hang freshly washed laundry. I have hung up wet clothes, and had somebody else push them to one side to hang up their own things, whilst other dry things stay up for nearly a week.

    The building manager has already put up a sign about freeing up washing lines for other people, but it seems to be ignored, and it isn’t the type of building where people know each other. I ended up using some clothes pegs to push some dry items along the lines so my wet washing has a chance to start drying. I have no idea what else to do, apart from inform the building manager that things are not improving.

    1. WellRed*

      This whole system seems wildly impractical so I’m not surprised there’s an issue. Personally, I’d move dry laundry out if the way. Can you get a couple drying racks for your apartment?

    2. Jay*

      In the building I live in, when dealing with communal laundry areas, the general rule is that, if you leave your stuff for too long after it is done, then someone else who needs the space/machine, etc. can move your things to a sorting table/chair/top of a machine. Anywhere it will stay clean and not be bothered. Mostly, for machines, you get maybe a half hour’s grace period. No one really minds too much. It’s happened to me a couple of times over the years when I fell asleep while waiting for my laundry to be done.

      1. RagingADHD*

        This has been common practice everywhere I’ve lived that had shared laundry space.

        Normally it would be rude to handle someone else’s things, but it is ruder to block everyone else from using a shared amenity for an extended time.

        Besides, there is always the chance that the owner went on vacation and forgot, or (god forbid) something happened to them. It makes no sense to leave them up indefinitely.

        Once they are dry, the space is fair game again.

    3. Not A Manager*

      Is there a building engineer/custodian on staff? The way to keep this from becoming a personal issue between neighbors (you moved my dry laundry! you left your laundry too long! you moved my wet laundry instead of someone else’s dry laundry!) is to have management make a simple rule and enforce it.

      For example, they could put a large bin or a table into the space, and a sign that says that “management” will remove all dry laundry from the clotheslines every evening. It’s not a huge burden for the custodian to check once a day and pile up all the dry stuff. People will be less incensed if there’s a way to keep the piles separate, like on a big table meant for folding laundry, but there can be workarounds if that’s not possible. The basic idea is to shift this to some impersonal rules-making entity instead of leaving it to the neighbors to solve on an ad hoc basis.

      Also I agree that one dedicated, personal washer and dryer per unit is bananas.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Thanks for your comments everyone. I have just been down to check on today’s drying laundry, and the good news is that the dry stuff I pushed to one side has been moved.

        The bad news is that instead of leaving my damp washing be, it was squashed up, presumably out of spite. Still, I have straightened it all out now, and it should be dry by tomorrow.

        There isn’t a building manager on site, it’s a private company which comes by every so often. I am going to write to them, because I don’t want to take things into my own hands, but I don’t think this is going to be solved easily or logically.

        1. Not A Manager*

          How big is your building? You could try to anonymously solve the problem yourself. Put out a few medium sized bins and a big, official-looking note that says, “place all fully dry laundry in these bins for owner pickup.” You could even paste labels on the bins that say “dry laundry.”

          The idea is to normalize that it’s expected to move dry laundry, without turning it into passive-aggressive shaming of people who leave their stuff out. Not because they shouldn’t be shamed – I wish they could be – but because the more people feel shamed the angrier they get and then they act out.

    4. Bart*

      We have a few giant clothes drying racks in our house. They fold up when not needed. If fighting the social norms of the building is too much to deal with, a temporary drying station may reduce your frustration!

  56. Mary*

    I’m trying to move my things out of my ex’s house, otherwise he’s threatening to throw out my belongings. (There are lawyers involved.) I’m calling moving companies to get quotes- should I mention the back story or just give the necessary information on what I need moved out? (ie: Some companies want to go to the house in order to give an estimate, but that isn’t possible because I’m no longer living there.) I’m just not sure what to say.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I can’t imagine any moving company who would be dealing with something like this for the first time. I would start with saying you need a few things moved from a former residence– they’ll ask questions from there. The companies that want to come by for a quote often would prefer that but they don’t need to do it.

    2. Generic Name*

      Ugh, I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. It’s probably expedient to simply answer each question asked rather than preemptively go into a whole backstory up front. So tell them you need your stuff moved by x date. If they say they need to view beforehand, you can say that’s not possible. If they ask why you can say that it’s because your ex isn’t allowing it and you don’t live there anymore. Then you can maybe say that it’s a delicate situation with lawyers involved and you’d really appreciate their help. Hopefully that will allow them to bend any rules or policies for you.

    3. Emma*

      The police nonemergency line might be something else to contact, to see if they have resources for this kind of thing, or if they might be able to send an officer over during the actual moving to help things go smoothly.

      Domestic violence agencies might also have ideas.

    4. office hobbit*

      I’ve hired movers twice and neither of them needed to see the house before doing the work. They just needed practical info about stairs, large items, etc. I agree with the above commenters that movers are probably used to delicate situations and you can give necessary information without giving the whole backstory. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

  57. Prisoner of Zenda*

    I slipped and fell down the stairs yesterday, and I’m pretty sure I broke my ankle. Reeling a bit because I am in my late 20s and relatively healthy. Going in to have it looked at now. Any recommendations on work pants/attire to wear if I need a hard cast? I can wear dresses and skirts but I live in a cold climate.

    1. RagingADHD*

      I’m sorry to hear that! No recommendations because it really depends on what you wind up with. Just wishing you good luck.

    2. Generic Name*

      When I broke my ankle in March (I live in a cold climate, so it was still cold and snowy) some years ago, I mostly wore yoga pants to work. Long skirts were okay too. Nobody said anything negative, even my asshole boss. I think everyone understands the wardrobe challenges of foot/leg casts and are therefore very understanding. I do remember my mom being very worried that I would have to cut slits in all my work pants and therefore ruin them forever. No idea why it didn’t occur to her I could just only wear clothing that I could fit over my cast.

    3. Zona the Great*

      Oh my gosh I’m so sorry! Isn’t it wild how a fall like that makes us realize how careful we need to be? I also am well aware of how destructive a fall can be for anyone less sturdy than myself. I fell out of bed about two years ago while trying to frantically respond to my cat’s distress call. It was one of those things where I wasn’t awake until I was fully mobile. And I landed with my full weight directly onto my tailbone. The impact was so sudden and severe that I was nauseated and extremely dizzy and disoriented. It took several months for it to heal.

      I think dresses and skirts could work well when perhaps combined with leg warmers….and that actually could look quite cute! Speedy recovery to you, my friend.

    4. Observer*

      Dresses and skirts can work really well. Longer, warmer skirts exist. Then one sock on the leg without a cast, so you have the warmth on that foot. And if you want, shorts under the skirt that are loose enough to get over the cast easily.

    5. AGD*

      Ouch! So sorry to hear about this bit of bad luck. I slipped and fell and broke a bone in one foot when I was in my late 20s and it was already almost winter in a cold place. I wore the same pair of warm wide-leg corduroy pants for six weeks straight, though I washed them a few times in the middle. I was embarrassed not about the injury itself, but about the size of the enormous cast, which was very obvious and made the injury look far worse than it was, so being able to hide most of it was a relief. Wishing you the best and speedy healing.

  58. What's for dinner?*

    What’s your favorite, quick and easy meal? I need to buy groceries and not really motivated so looking for ideas :)

    1. Jm*

      Pizza casserole. Jar spaghetti sauce. Macaroni browned hamburger one cup water. Microwave covered for 15 minutes. Top with mozzarella to melt. Kids love it
      Caesar salad kit with a salmon filet ( grilled or baked however you like)
      Steak fajitas. Small steak slices small. Peppers onions. Flour tortilla salsa sour cream. All are quick and easy

    4. Elle Woods*

      I’m a big fan of stir fry when I want something quick and easy. Grab some sauce, a bag of frozen pre-chopped veggies, add a protein and some noodles (optional to both) and heat.

    5. Bluebell*

      Wraps. Easiest version is canned black beans with cumin and garlic powder, white rice, pre shredded jack cheese and jarred salsa. Maybe bag salad on the side. For a little more effort, you can chop your own veggies, sauté mushrooms and zucchini.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Bacon sandwich. If I’m really lazy, I get the precooked heat and eat bacon and put it on toast with mayo or toppings of choice. Slightly less lazy, add a fried egg or a couple slices of deli turkey.

      1. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

        Mine’s a variation of that! : ) English muffin, sliced ham, butter. Add or substitute eggs (fried or scrambled, depending on your level of patience) if you have the energy.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Breakfast! Scrambled eggs and toast, with some fruit–can totally be and often is unsweetened applesauce, but I also like to cut up and cook a whole apple in a little water with butter, cinnamon, and a little brown or turbinado sugar.
      Or pancakes.

      1. Squirrel Nutkin (the teach, not the admin)*

        Ooh, yeah, love the all-included pancake mix. Just add water, heat up some oil in a pan, and you’re ready to go!

    8. RussianInTexas*

      Stir fry of various vegetables and proteins.
      If you have a slow cooker, chicken (breasts or thighs) with a jar of salsa, or canned pineapple+ bbq sauce + jerk seasoning, makes tacos. Chicken or quartered Italian sausage + sliced bell peppers, onions, a jar of your favorite red pasta sauce or a jar of crushed + a jar of diced tomatoes, seasoning, serve with pasta.
      Also, Google “serious eats Kenji make ahead chickpeas cumin salad”, it’s really good.

    9. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Pasta + jar of sauce + meat + frozen veggies.
      Meat I do a couple different ways:
      I buy cooked rotisserie chicken meat at Costco and chop it into smaller pieces and freeze in portions of about 1 cup.
      I buy fully cooked chicken sausages, kielbasa, etc. and cut it into “coins” and freeze in about 1 cup portions.
      If we have leftover ground beef, sausage, steak, etc. I freeze it too.
      I defrost the meat and veggies in the microwave while the pasta is cooking. Drain the pasta, add all the other stuff, warm through. Add cheese on top if you want.
      Serve with bread if you want.
      Mix and match and you can get a pretty wide variety just from this.

      1. Dancing Otter*

        I keep frozen soy crumbles on hand for when I want browned ground beef but didn’t thaw it in advance. Probably healthier, but definitely faster.

    10. Jay*

      Grilled cheese and tomato soup.
      Maybe get fancy and buy tomato bisque instead.
      Maybe get fancier and add meat of some kind to the sandwich.
      Get fanciest and put some kind of condiment on the sandwich.
      Campbells makes a nice bisque in it’s own microwave container.
      Munster cheese melts quickly and well and tastes better than American slices.
      Total prep time, fanciness depending, is between 3 and 10 minutes, total.

    11. Camelid coordinator*

      Fish tacos—I cook some frozen breaded fish filets or fish sticks in the toaster oven and throw together a tangy slaw (cabbage, jalapeños, and lime juice plus whatever I have like scallions or shallots or carrots) while they cook then serve in a tortilla. Hey, maybe this is what I will do for Thursday or Friday dinner!

    12. Elle*

      Budget Bytes has this simple BBQ beef and beans recipe. It’s a pound of beef, two cans of beans and a bottle of bbq sauce. It’s good as a sandwich, on rice, potatoes or on its own. It’s takes about 15 min to come together.

    13. Falling Diphthong*

      Smitten Kitchen’s Apple and Cheddar Crisp Salad, which we are having tonight. It’s a kale salad so has fiber, few ingredients so simple to put together, the cheese and nuts make it filling and satisfying.

      I make twice the crunchy bits.

      If anyone is allergic to dairy, you can sub the cheddar crisps with a ham steak.

    14. Rara Avis*

      Tortellini with sugar snap peas and a sauce made of cherry tomatoes, capers, and 1/4 cup each of mayo, vinegar, and Parmesan.

  59. TheBunny*

    Any advice on a cat that keeps yowling in response to a new cat?

    We introduced them slowly over more than 2 weeks. There’s no fighting and no aggression. If the new kitten annoys the older cat, he literally hisses and walks away (unless he’s eating then he just goes back to eating).

    BUT…he’s yowling at night. It’s not in pain as the minute we give him any attention he stops. I don’t want to ignore him as I’m sure it’s at least partly motivated by the change and some fear or jealousy. But it’s so loud and it’s clear in those moments he wants something…so any suggestions on ways to help him settle in better?

    1. TPS reporter*

      Could you try giving him some special attention time before bed? you could play for awhile to get his energy out, brush him and give him a treat.

      Playing before bed does usually help with the nighttime energy. Maybe also if it’s something about ownership over you, get him a new bed and put a shirt in it with your scent on it.

      Is the kitten sleeping with you and you lock out the older cat or vice versa? Curious if that has something to do with it. You could try crating the kitten at night so the older cat can have some alone time with you.

      1. TheBunny*

        We’ve tried the attention. He sleeps with us and the new kitten is still a little skittish so the kitten is choosing to sleep in the living room.

    2. EveryDayICheckMyEmailandForWhat*

      Have you tried tuckering him out right before you go to bed? Really get him jumping with his favorite toy (assuming he’s not a senior citizen). If you can get the two playing together, even better, since he’ll start to associate the new cat’s presence with you and fun time, which might settle him down.

    3. tabloidtainted*

      Don’t assume that it’s caused by the new cat. Yowling can be a symptom of age and illness—in my senior cats, it was probably a mix of confusion and hearing loss and a desire for comfort. It can be easy to focus on one change as the cause and miss something else.

      1. TheBunny*

        It’s definitely the kitten. He only does it after he sees the new little guy and completely stops if we give him any attention, even if its just speaking to him from across the room. We also tried to see what would happen if the kitten was in another room…yup, no yowling. If he can’t see the kitten he’s fine.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I will put in a plug for consulting with an animal behaviorist! I did it for some conflict between Fig and Eve that was stressing out Eve, and it was incredibly helpful and we’ve almost completely solved the problem with her tips from just one session. (If you want a recommendation, feel free to email me; the woman who I worked with does remote sessions for cat issues since, as she pointed out, when she does in-person visits the cats usually hide anyway.)

  60. acmx*

    Looking for air fryer recs.

    I’m thinking one of the toaster oven styles would be most useful to me over the basket ones. I could cook both meat and veggies at the same time? Or is that actually not likely due to different temps or time needed?

    Ideally, I’d like one closer to the $100 price point than $200. I’m just cooking for myself. Ant brands to avoid?

    1. Generic Name*

      I got a flip up toaster oven/air fryer from Costco. I think it was $150. It can definitely cook veggies and meats and starches at the same time. What people call air frying is really just convection baking, which is baking with a fan on inside the oven.

    2. sswj*

      I got a Cuisinart that I love. This is a discontinued model because it has very unfancy dial knobs, and no real bells or whistles. But, it does everything I want it to do, and I love it! I think I paid $90 for it?

      It’s also now wicked cheap because it’s an “old” model and not fancy. I think I saw a sale on them at Walmart? or Target? for $30. It’s worth at least 5 times that, in my book.

  61. Elizabeth West*

    So you know the Valpak coupon thing you get in the mail? Most of the time, the coupons are for services I can’t use (gutter or carpet cleaning, etc.) but a couple of weeks ago, I got one for an introductory $20 membership to BJ’s Wholesale Club. I live very close to one, so last Saturday, while doing other errands, I went in and wandered around the entire store to see if I wanted to join up. Spoiler: yes I did — the giant $5 rotisserie chickens sucked me in, lol.

    We also have a Costco nearby but the membership is more than BJ’s and I did not get a coupon for them.

    I’m a singleton who lives in a shoebox-sized apartment, and we do not have any extra storage at this building. (I can probably get rid of a bunch of my stuff, especially in the bedroom closet and under the bed, but I’m not ready to do that just yet, although I will eventually.)

    Has anyone ever joined a warehouse club while living with limited space, and if so, what items are best to look for at these stores? I might need a new TV before too long — are they a good place to get electronics?

    1. Jay*

      Mostly things that keep.
      -Paper goods (plates, Kleenex, napkins, paper towels, etc.).
      -Dry goods.
      -Frozen foods (if you have room in your freezer).
      -Condiments (if you have room in your fridge).
      -Alcohol (if it doesn’t need to be refrigerated and you don’t really drink much, you can get a year of beer all at once for cheap).
      -Cleaning supplies (if you have the room to store them).
      -If you don’t mind the extra time/effort, you can volunteer to be the ‘connection’ for cheap, abundant snacks and drinks for any club/group/organization you belong to. You provide the time, transportation, and membership and they pay for the stuff (as long as this is fair and equitable to everyone). One of the women in my TRPG group does this when we can get together in person (rather than playing online). We pay for the snacks and she buys them at Costco.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Ooh, I like the connection idea. I would never have thought of that. It also sounds like a good way to get in good with any groups I may join.

    2. Not A Manager*

      Alcohol, laundry detergent/cleaning supplies, high quality meat, cold cuts/cheeses, non-perishable food items, office supplies, small appliances and electronics.

      I do have some storage in my small apartment, so I also get bulk dry goods like paper towels and toilet paper. I realize that is ridiculous for one person living alone, but I do it anyway.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Not ridiculous; I always buy the big packages of those things. I hate running out frequently.

        I wondered if the electronics were any good. I’ll have to take a closer look next time I go in. The only thing I looked at were vacuums and they were too expensive for me anyway. Although I do need a better one; when I first moved in, I grabbed the cheapest thing I could find, which is no more than a dustbuster on a stick.

    3. Emma*

      One thing about BJs- I enrolled in a $10 membership, and wanted to cancel but found it hard. I remember it taking several phone calls. So just be careful about auto renew settings!

    4. Fellow Singleton*

      As a fellow singleton also living in a shoebox-sized apartment, I just tend to tag along with other people when they go to big box stores rather than buying my own membership because I do find it hard to get the value of it.

      Things I do buy:
      – OTC meds. I have some daily ones like Claritin and I don’t find it hard to store
      – Personal care – razor blade packs, contact lends solution. Basically anything that I use regularly enough to need a bunch but also not too bulky.
      – fruits and veggies – sometimes, the package is too big but berries can be good
      – meat – I like the meats at Costco more, but as long as it is 3lb or under, I can usually make it work
      – electronics – TVs
      – small appliances – electric toothbrush, immersion blender, dyson
      – snacks – sometimes, I can eat the multi serving by myself :)

      I don’t tend to buy paper goods or most dry goods because I don’t use enough of it to make storage worth it. Cleaning supplies is hit or miss, depending on bulkiness.

      My other tip is seeing if you can find a buddy to split things with – I will never use two bottles of 409 spray in a reasonable timeframe, but I can use one and maybe a neighbor could use the other.

      For Costco, I also used their pharmacy. They are also known for good deals on glasses but I haven’t tried it myself.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Basically anything that I use regularly enough to need a bunch but also not too bulky.
        This is kinda what I was hoping for. That and the chickens. You can pick the meat off and freeze it. I don’t have a chest freezer — just the one in the fridge, but a bag of chicken bits doesn’t take up much room.

    5. Squidhead*

      We’ve gotten a couple of TVs at BJ’s and they’ve been fine. Ours has a giant display area of TVs so you can look at them before you buy. Also other electronics like a multi-pack of memory cards, and big packs of batteries (we have several battery operated lights and clocks around so we use a fair number over the course of a year or two). Some things we buy don’t take up too much space: 300-count bottle of multivitamins or 2-pack of big shampoo bottles (assuming it’s a brand we want anyway). If you use them, the 2-lb bags of fish filets are pretty handy…each filet is individually wrapped and especially if you have a coupon they are usually cheaper than our regular store. Frozen vegetables, too, and ours has fresh produce in large but manageable sizes (like 2-lbs of strawberries which you might occasionally want). They send out coupon books or you can go online and “clip” coupons onto your card. We also buy butter there, usually in a 3 or 4 pound pack and keep the extra in the freezer.

      The biggest thing we buy is gas, though the lines have gotten really long so ours is not good for gas in a hurry but it’s the cheapest around.

      They also have some partnerships for discounts on other services: specifically they used to have a partnership with Liberty Mutual insurance that saved us several hundred dollars a year on our bundled home/auto policy. Literally it was worth keeping the BJs membership just to keep that discount! (Now I have the same discount through my employer so I don’t use the BJs one anymore but it’s worth looking up if they have anything you’d like.)

    6. HBJ*

      If you wear contacts, and they have an optical section, definitely check the contacts! I bought my contacts from Costco for less than half the price of what they cost from any other retailer.

    7. Vanessa*

      I love Costco. There are a number of items that are so much cheaper there. Laundry detergent. Dog food. Milk. Eggs. Sheet cakes. Booze. Pizza ready to eat. Quick meals like street tacos. Big tubs of soup (guessing the two pack is 6-8 servings) very easy lunches. Produce.
      I agree with the person who mentioned finding people to split with. My mom is older and I often just portion stuff for her.
      Also Costco is very easy to cancel.
      Great deals on clothes when you’ve given up and are only able to shop where you buy snacks.
      And if you ever send gifts. If the people you are sending to are in range, for the cost of sending flowers you can instacart flowers and an easy meal.

  62. Emily Byrd Starr*

    I just got back from church. It’s a Unitarian church that is very progressive and accommodating and welcoming to all.
    Now, before I go into the story, I find it necessary to mention the fact that I am neurodivergent and have a number of neurological/mental diagnoses. This means, among other things, that I am unable to tune out unwanted background sounds like most people. In particular, the sound of a baby or toddler crying bothers me on a sensory level. It’s like fingernails on a chalkboard, and it causes me to feel anxiety. Yes, I get that babies cry and they don’t know any better and we can’t get mad at them and all that, but it still bothers me on a purely sensory level and there’s nothing I can do about it. Trust me, if there were a way to make it stop bothering me by changing my attitude or what not, I would have done it a long time ago.
    So there’s this family who goes to my church and has twins who are currently toddlers. They’re adorable, but also very loud, like most toddlers. There’s a part in the church service where the minister calls all the children and their families to the front row and delivers a message especially for them, and then all the children go downstairs for their religious education class. Children too young for religious education (under 5) are watched by babysitters downstairs. Today, I saw the parents bring their twins to the front for the message. From where I was sitting, I couldn’t tell if they brought them downstairs afterwards, but I just assumed they did like everyone else.
    Then, several minutes later, I heard them making loud noises, screaming, crying, etc. This continued throughout the service, and it made me feel anxious and stressed for the reasons I said above. It made it difficult for me to have the spiritual experience that I came to church for, as the service was constantly being interrupted by their toddler noises, and I was unable to ignore it.
    So, I’m thinking of talking to the pastor or writing her an email and letting her know about my problem. However, I’m afraid that I’m going to come off as a baby-hater or an old curmudgeon or an unsympathetic jerkwad. I’ve had many conversations about this topic (both with people I know and in online forums) and they’ve been less than sympathetic to my situation. Here are just a few of the responses I’ve heard:

    “Children are a gift from God and we should be glad that they’re here, because they’re the next generation of worshippers. We should be reacting with joy when we hear a baby crying!”
    Sure, it’s good that the children are there, but it is literally impossible for me to react with anything but frustration when I hear them crying. It’s ableist to insist that I’m in the wrong for reacting the way I do.

    “If you have a problem with hearing babies cry, then you’re a baby yourself. You just can’t handle someone besides you getting attention.”
    Obviously false, and also ableist.

    “When a baby cries in church, it’s the voice of God that you came to hear!”
    No, it’s not, unless you believe that God wants me to feel anxiety and frustration.

    “Jesus wouldn’t kick a baby out for crying. He said ‘Let the little children come to me.”
    Jesus wasn’t neurodivergent and didn’t have sensory integration issues, at least I don’t think He did. At any rate, He definitely wouldn’t punish me for being neurodivergent.

    “We need to be welcoming to children and families, and if we make them leave when they start screaming, then they will feel less valued.”
    If someone is too young to understand the difference between inside and outside voices, they’re too young to know or care that they aren’t being “welcomed” or “valued.” They’re also too young to get anything out of the church service. I, on the other hand, made the choice to come to the service, and I feel that I deserve to be welcomed and valued as well.

    “If you have a problem with it, then go out into the hall or stay home and watch it on Zoom.”
    Go out into the hall? But then I’ll miss part of the service. Why can’t the parents take the babies out? Or, better yet, use the free babysitters downstairs. Like I said above, they’re too young to know or care that they’re missing part of the service. Watching it on Zoom isn’t an option because I want to be there in person and be part of the community, and insisting that I stay home is a form of segregation and discrimination. Plus, I’d still hear the babies crying over Zoom.

    So, that’s where I’m at. How do I communicate my needs to the pastor without sounding like an unsympathetic a-hole who hates babies? Any advice would be appreciated. (NOTE: If you’re going to respond with one of the things I said above, or something like it, please don’t bother to answer.)

    1. anon24*

      So, I’m not religious anymore, but I grew up being forced to go to church. I’m neurodivergent as well and understand the dilemma of not being able to tolerate crying children and also not wanting to come across as a child hating monster. I think you should nicely explain what you wrote in the comment and ask if the pastor can collaborate with you on ideas of how you can still enjoy the sermon and still be part of your church community.
      Some thoughts: my church also had children’s services. My mother decided that it was unacceptable for me to leave because children should have to sit through a sermon that was not aimed at them instead of attending the classes that were, so instead of getting leave and go hang out with my peers and do Bible crafts and learn lessons I had to sit without moving for an hour+ long sermon. It was pure torture and probably part of the reason why I ran from religion as soon as I could. If those parents have the same mindset, maybe a word from the pastor may help. Or maybe they have medical needs that they want them to stay with them, idk.
      A second thought, my church also had speakers piping the sermon into some the hallways and another room. When I got to be a little older my mom allowed me to leave to one of those places during the sermon because sitting still and being around all those other people was agony. I’d go into a side hallway that few people knew about or used and pace up and down or lay on the floor and draw. Or if my favorite person was running the sound board I’d go sit in the sound room with him and he’d let me spin circles in a desk chair for the whole sermon. Perhaps there’s a place you can go where you can listen to the sermon and still attend church and be part of the community but not have to deal with noise of children or people around you during the actual sermon? You have the right to enjoy your church services too.

      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        I like your first idea and I will do what you suggested. However, I don’t like the idea of going into a separate room. For one thing, I’m in the choir. For another, if the microphone can pick the preacher, it can also pick up children crying. Also, I don’t like being segregated from the rest of the community. I suppose one could counter with, “neither do the children,” but like I said, they’re too young to know or care about that.

        1. Sloanicota*

          I want to lovingly say that it’s not the children who the pastor and others are worried about feeling alienated; as you know, they are too young for that. It’s the parents that the pastor isn’t going to want to make feel unwelcomed / like they have to go stand in the hall. I realize it’s frustrating, just flagging that because you’ll want to have the right structure for your request and saying the kids won’t care doesn’t really help.

      2. The teapots are on fire*

        Emily,
        I think it’s completely reasonable for you to contact the pastor (maybe on not-a-Sunday since they may be at their most busy then) and let them know you’re struggling and not sure what to ask for, but you have a true difficulty handling this particular kind of sound. I don’t think you have to feel responsible for proposing a solution if you can’t think of one, just ask for what could be done to help you and explain what’s important to you (not having the kiddo noise last for too long, still being included in the community). A good pastor should want to help you and will know the community better than you and may have some ideas.

    2. Emma*

      I don’t have advice about how to communicate this, but have you considered something like Loop earplugs, or a knockoff? They have versions that dull noise, but you can still hear. They can sometimes help with sensory issues.

      1. Emma*

        And one strategy might be suggesting making some services neurodivergent friendly. It could be on a schedule (like x services per month), or if you have multiple services each week, maybe it could be for one of them.
        They could request to have parents use the babysitters for the service, and do other things to make it calmer. Like I know some movie theaters offer sensory friendly screenings, so the service could utilize things that they do there.

    3. TPS reporter*

      assuming these kids usually go with the others, maybe this week was a random time where the kids couldn’t or didn’t want to go for some reason? Could you wait until next week to see if it’s a pattern that could be addressed?

    4. Not A Manager*

      This is really hard. Is it a rule that all children must leave the service at a certain point, or is it an option for them to do so? I’ve been at synagogues where it’s a rule that all children unable to conform their behavior must leave the sanctuary during the sermon, and others where it was possible to remove children, but not required.

      If it’s a rule in your church, then I think you can speak to the people in authority about enforcing the rule, and you can explain why it matters to you. If it’s just an option, though, I’m not sure you have much recourse. You have two competing needs, and while it might seem that yours overrides the other, I suspect that the parents won’t see it that way.

      What would you do if an adult were making background noises that you found distressing? Something like wheezing loudly, or repetitive throat-clearing? Nothing that indicates contagion, just an annoying sound. Could you respond the same way to the noisy toddlers, whatever that response would be?

      2. Emily Byrd Starr*

        But, hypothetically speaking, if it was bothering me to the extent that it was interfering with my ability to worship, I’d simply move to a different part of the sanctuary. That’s not an option with the toddlers, because they’re so loud that I can hear them no matter where they’re sitting.

      3. rkz*

        I second the advice to start by finding out your church’s policy on this…I know my church has placards and notes in the bulletin emphasizing that children are welcome in the service and that the “babysitting” available is optional. there’s a lot of “we get that kids are kids and they are wiggly and sometimes loud” kind of language. That’s not to say you’re concerns aren’t also valid, but I think it’s important to figure out the policy first to find out whether you are saying “can we kindly ask this family to follow the policy?” or “can we come up with a solution to my concerns while also welcoming small children in the service?”

        I’m a parent of small children (who thankfully manage to be fairly quiet and not distracting during church). there are all kinds of reasons my kids end up in service with us instead of downstairs in the nursery (including that the nursery is sometimes closed because the people who were supposed to work there that day are sick). that said, I would agree that your experience in worship is also important! I hope you can find a solution.

    5. Jay*

      I used to have an issue with high pitched sounds.
      This was before anyone knew what ‘neurodivergent’ was and I was just labeled an over sensitive weirdo.
      I spent some time looking into ways of dealing with the issue and remember something about something like ‘oppositional sound’, I think it was called. Basically playing a particular frequency of sound outward that will in some way cancel a specific range of sounds coming inward.
      Supposedly there were headphones that could cancel one type of noise, not noise in general. Like, just high pitched noises.
      Back in the day, I couldn’t afford it and now that I might be able to, I no longer need it (long family history of severe hearing loss from both of my parents sides for the win!).
      I can’t tell you whether it was legit or quack medicine praying on people with no other real options.
      But it might give you someplace to start looking.

    6. Bonne chance*

      I find that thinking of different people’s competing needs as legitimate and sometimes incompatible has helped me think empathetically when facing problems like this one. No one is behaving AT anyone else here, or at least I certainly hope not. It sounds like hearing children crying causes you pain and interferes with your ability to engage spiritually and as a community member, so tell your pastor that! How can you work together to make sure your spiritual and social needs are met?

      I’m not sure what the norms are around kid-sounds during services; unless it’s “no kids ever” then it’s worth thinking creatively. Are there aspects of going to services that are most important to you to prioritize or preserve? If it’s being physically present, then maybe bringing backup earplugs helps. If it’s being part of the community, then maybe there are other activities at your church that would be more adult-only and sensory-friendly.

      I’m sorry that you’ve been dismissed when communicating your needs in the past. I hope that your pastor and/or fellow churchgoers can recognize your needs as real and important, even if they are not able to perfectly meet them.

    7. Dancing Otter*

      Evolution has wired humans to respond to crying babies. You don’t have to be ND to find the sound distressing. Now, some people respond by wanting to comfort the baby, and some less kindly, but anyone who enjoys the sound of a small child in distress has problems themself.
      BTW, Jesus said “let”, not “force”. There’s a difference between shooing away children who wanted to hear Him (the full context of the quote) and forcing crying toddlers to stay where they clearly do NOT want to be.

      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        “There’s a difference between shooing away children who wanted to hear Him (the full context of the quote) and forcing crying toddlers to stay where they clearly do NOT want to be.”

        Exactly!!!!

      2. Emily Byrd Starr*

        “You don’t have to be ND to find the sound distressing. ”

        Yes, but because I am ND, it doesn’t merely distress me, but it also causes me to feel anxiety. Also, one of my neuro-disabilities is ADHD, and one way that it affects me is that unwanted/unexpected sounds bother me when I’m trying to concentrate. I can’t “just ignore it” like NT people can.

          1. Emily Byrd Starr*

            It’s my understanding that NT’s can “filter out” unwanted noise/stimulation. Lots of ND’s can’t, and so we experience what is known as sensory overload.

            1. RagingADHD*

              Most of the time, it’s not so much that NTs can literally tune it out, but that they can better compensate for / regulate their emotional reaction so that they don’t feel so distressed about it.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      I think the parents should take the toddlers out. But I get why those in a position to speak out may hesitate, hoping they will hit on that themselves. So my first advice is to let a one-off be a one-off. Maybe today was a weird day and they observed it not working well.

      (My youngest had extremely strong feelings about being left with strangers, who are probably monsters in skin suits made from the less wary, while my oldest couldn’t push us out the door fast enough when she learned we could pay a teenaged girl to pay attention to her.)

    9. Dear liza dear liza*

      The UU organization has done a lot of work on making services more accessible in recent years. You could ask the pastor if you two could watch some of the webinars in the “ Welcoming Neurodivergent People: Skill Up” series (Google to see the list) for some ideas.

      Also, what about contacting the EqUUal Access Group? From their site: “We are Unitarian Universalists living with disabilities, our families, friends, and allies coming together for a common purpose: To enable the full engagement of people with disabilities in Unitarian Universalist communities and the broader society.”

      PS love your user name. I read the Emily books well before I read Anne of Green Gables and she’ll always have a place in my heart.

    10. Church Q*

      OP, is this explicitly a “family” service at a church that has a variety of services each Sunday (some of them not “family”)? Asking because I think it changes the viability of your goal and the range of things you might request.

      1. Washi*

        Yeah the fact that there is a children’s message makes me think this is a service targeting families. In my experience, Saturday evening services have few to no children, and you might be more likely to get the experience you’re looking for.

        1. Clisby*

          I wondered about that, too. When I was a child, my parents almost never took us to “regular” church services. Every Sunday, there was a service specifically for children before the main service (so, think of a children’s service at 9 a.m., then they go off to Sunday School, and the regular service starts at 10 a.m.) Of course, anybody who wanted could attend either service, but it worked out pretty well.

      2. Emily Byrd Starr*

        No, they have only one service per weekend, so I don’t have the option of attending another one.

        1. Church Q*

          Thanks, that’s helpful and I think puts you in a better position to ask for something. Is there a place parents with kids can go that’s not the babysitting? Establishing that might be a good option. In the alternative, the congregation might establish a room for people who badly need or want quiet during worship. Whichever it is, the service would be broadcast into the room, and the room would be set up to be a welcoming, comfortable place. Off the top of my head, I wonder whether you might be able to alternate weeks of kids in service/quiet room; quiet service/kids in room, spreading that burden across affected parties.

          1. Emily Byrd Starr*

            The problem with having the service broadcast into a separate room is that the audio equipment will pick up the sound of the children screaming/crying. So it’s really not a solution.

            1. RagingADHD*

              Ameliorating the intensity of the sound doesn’t help at all? I’m not sure that “zero sounds of children at all” is an achievable goal, no matter how willing the leadership may be to try to accommodate you.

              1. Emily Byrd Starr*

                Maybe “zero sounds of children” is a bit extreme. Perhaps the compromise would be to let the kids be there and understand that they may make an occasional noise, but if it becomes repetitive (like more than three times in the service), it’s time to take them out.

    11. Maggie*

      I am sympathetic, as I’m NT and still can’t stand the sound of babies or kids screaming, however I will say that churches are probably THE single most family and child friendly places I can think of aside from a designated children’s play place. Children’s noises, movements and general accommodation towards them is commonplace in the churches I’ve been – although those were all catholic or some form of Christian where having kids is literally seen as honoring god, so they’re going to be very welcome there. So in the end I totally sympathize but in my personal experience, churches are about as kids welcome as it gets.

      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        This is a UU church that values being inclusive and welcoming to all, including people with disabilities, so I doubt that the pastor will dismiss me as others have.

    12. Miss Buttons*

      I don’t think you’re an unsympathetic a-hole who hates babies. I think the parents of the toddlers were selfish and unsympathetic. They are lucky the church provides a babysitting option. Not all churches do. I think a diplomatically worded message to the pastor would be in order. Good luck with this. You have every right to be able to enjoy the service without disruption.

      2. Sloanicota*

        I don’t think anyone has to be “wrong” for the situation to be frustrating. As others have said, children are often welcomed to stay in the service even if they’re not being quiet for a range of reasons, and the fact that there is a sitter may be an optional thing, rather than an obligation, so it’s hard to judge the parents. They may have been doing their very best that day. They may also have reasons why they couldn’t / chose not to take the kids to the daycare, as others have pointed out. I hope Emily has good luck raising her concern diplomatically and a solution can be found that works for all without needing to cast the parents as selfish or unsympathetic.

        1. Church Q*

          Yeah, this thread gives me the impression that OP feels like parents should be obligated to use the babysitting option, have quiet kids, or stay away, and while I see where that might be coming from, the truth is that leaving kids with non-family caregivers is sensitive/challenging/verboten for lots of people and I think a “use the babysitting or get out” message will be poorly received by many people (even enthusiastic users of the babysitting service). I made a comment up thread about the possibility of establishing welcoming rooms for parents and/or people who need quiet to step out to, and I think that would be better received (especially paired with a message about ND members of the congregation who struggle with noise).

      3. TheBunny*

        The problem here is that the parents also have the same right and part of their enjoyment might be having their children with them for the service.

        This is one of those issues where neither side is more in the right than the other, which makes it more difficult.

        1. Emily Byrd Starr*

          But when their enjoyment of having the kids with them is preventing others from having the spiritual experience they came to have…..

        2. Emily Byrd Starr*

          Here’s how I feel about it: for the parents, having their kids there adds to the enjoyment; but for me, it prevents me from having the experience that I came there for. I assume that they went to church before they had kids. In other words, having their kids there is a bonus, not a necessity; while for me, having a reasonably* quiet environment with as few distractions as possible is a necessity for me to worship at church.

          *I say *reasonably* because I understand that I might hear an occasional kid noise and I can tolerate that, but when it becomes constant and repetitive, I can’t tolerate it.

          *

    13. ThatOtherClare*

      So maybe it’s just thing in my country, but every church I’ve ever visited has had a video screen set up in the children’s room so that parents could watch the service without the noise of the children being an interruption. Many of them actually had a separate ‘cry room’ with a screen, so that parents could comfort their babies somewhere calm away from rampaging 6 years olds without disturbing the service.

      Is there any chance that suggesting a variation on this solution might help? Even if they come up with a different fix, framing it as “I know this isn’t ideal for anyone, but here’s a possible solution that keeps the parent’s needs in mind” might come across better.

      If you have the space, a soundproofed ‘cry room’ with a video screen truly is the way to go. It’s actually better for the child because they’re able to get their adult’s full attention to whatever their specific need is rather than everyone trying to (lovingly) shush them asap. The temptation to hold out for 15 more minutes on a nappy change so as not to miss the end of the sermon goes away if they can watch the sermon on the screen while they do it.

      Honestly, you’re mostly just suggesting this for the children. Their comfort should come first, always! Your ears? Oh, yeah, they benefit a bit too, I guess. But whatever, let’s get back to considering something like a soundproofed cry room. For the sake of the little children! <3<3

      Ok, I was deliberately being a bit facetious there – but I come from a large family of teachers and childcare workers and I know a 'cry room' is better for crying children than being settled in place in the sermon or Sunday School. I wouldn't suggest it otherwise. Hopefully something like it might form the basis of one of those elusive solutions that benefits everyone. Goodluck!

    14. RagingADHD*

      Couple of things come to mind –

      -Is there only 1 service? IME, some of them tend to be more full of little kids than others.

      -Is there a “cry room” or nursing room with a window or where the service is streamed? Normally the parents would take a crying baby in there, or if a mom wants more privacy, but you could also use it on a short term basis if needed.

      -When it comes to talking to the pastor, I think it would be best to approach it from a point of view like, “I am having a really hard time with something and I hope you can help me.”

      If you go in with an agenda that you want the toddlers banned / kicked out, that intention is going to come across strongest, and I don’t think there’s a way to wordsmith a request that wouldn’t sound negative.

      I also think you need to avoid conflating what happened today with every time you’ve ever talked to anyone about children in church. It sounds like this particular family kept the kids in service one time. For you, it’s connected to other incidents. But when you talk to pastor, they aren’t going to have that same perspective, and it could sound like you are jumping the gun on something that might not be an ongoing issue, or that might only happen occasionally.

      This isn’t the kind of thing you can argue someone into with logical reasons, because it’s an issue of conflicting needs. And I sure hope you aren’t going to call your pastor ableist if they are not 100 percent knowledgeable about your disabilities. That’s not going to get you anywhere constructive.

      As long as you trust your pastor, be vulnerable, not defensive. That’s the way to work this out together.

      Organizations in general are more likely to address occasional problems with ad-hoc rather than systemic solutions, and take more sweeping steps like policy changes only if a problem becomes frequent or persistent. However, it’s possible that there might already be conversations happening about having multiple services or a quiet room. You bringing your needs up could be a tipping point to get things implemented.

      Good luck! I hope things work out well for you.

      To your point about “Jesus wasn’t ND,” to me one of the most important points of doctrine about Jesus is that he fully understands and feels everything that makes us human, especially that he is with us in our distress and “gets” it. Other people may fail to get it, because they are fallible. But they don’t speak for him in that respect. At least, that’s what I believe.

      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        Yes, I realize that I did go on a bit of a rant in my original comment, but it’s just so frustrating. I see the open thread of AAM as a safe place to vent and express myself in ways that might not be appropriate in other situations. I’m just so sick and tired of being made to feel like I’m the bad guy for not being able to “just deal with it.” And

      2. Emily Byrd Starr*

        And when I said, “Jesus wasn’t ND,” I meant it as a response to those who tell me, “Jesus didn’t have a problem with babies and children, so neither should you!” I didn’t mean to imply that Jesus doesn’t understand the struggles of ND people.

    15. tabloidtainted*

      If you do choose to communicate this to the pastor, I’d recommend framing it as, “is there anything we can do about this?” vs., “you need to do something about this.” I’d also suggest, if this is the first time this has happened, waiting to see if it becomes a pattern.

    16. Observer*

      If someone is too young to understand the difference between inside and outside voices, they’re too young to know or care that they aren’t being “welcomed” or “valued.” They’re also too young to get anything out of the church service.

      That may or may not be true for many reasons (including, as it happens, some types of neurodivergence). It’s probably true most of the time, though, but that doesn’t help the *parents*.

      Or, better yet, use the free babysitters downstairs.

      That’s a really valid point. I don’t much mind most child noises, but if there is a babysitting service, it’s generally rude an inconsiderate to not make use of it. And the fact that this service exists in your congregation gives you a lot more standing to bring this up.

      I would hope that your pastor has more sense than to say you’re “a baby” or anything like that. And I would also hope that she has enough sense that once you explain your problem, she’ll at least understand it’s not just you being a child hater or inappropriately being hung up on protocol.

      I think that your best bet is to lay out your problem and then ask that since *there is a reasonable alternative already in place*, that any parent whose child(ren) cannot be reasonably quiet during the service should be expected to take advantage of that service.

      Sometimes there are conflicting needs, and it’s hard to say that one over-rides the other. But here there is a way to deal with it, so ask that it parents use it.

      1. Sloanicota*

        ” it’s generally rude and inconsiderate to not make use of it.” – I really don’t think this is correct. Most parents are not going to be keen on being told they MUST leave toddlers with someone they don’t know, or they are not welcome to attend church. Some kids don’t do well with strangers, some parents are just nervous about them being out of sight, some kids have medical needs (including ND) that go above what the average babysitter is ready for. This just isn’t a realistic assumption.

      2. Emily Byrd Starr*

        “ I would hope that your pastor has more sense than to say you’re “a baby” or anything like that. And I would also hope that she has enough sense that once you explain your problem, she’ll at least understand it’s not just you being a child hater or inappropriately being hung up on protocol.”

        No, she would never do that. She’s very understanding. And, based on my prior experiences with these parents, they are very reasonable as well. I once attended a church event (geared towards adults) where they were there with their kids, and they asked, “Does anyone have a problem with our kids being here?” Everyone said no, including me. I obviously did have a problem, but I felt that if I said so at that moment, it would be rude. Still, the fact that they asked makes me feel that they will be accommodating and understanding if the pastor speaks with them and tells them, “There is a neurodivergent person who attends this church who is triggered by the sounds of screaming children to the point where they are unable to have the religious experience that they came here for, so please use the babysitting service/remove the children when they’re loud/etc.”

        The people who said “you’re a baby “ or “shame on you for not reacting with joy to screaming children” or “you obviously hate children” were anonymous people on Internet forums, much like this one; and they were responding to the general sentiment of people not wanting children in church, as opposed to a specific person with neurological conditions.

      3. Emily Byrd Starr*

        “I would hope that your pastor has more sense than to say you’re “a baby” or anything like that. And I would also hope that she has enough sense that once you explain your problem, she’ll at least understand it’s not just you being a child hater or inappropriately being hung up on protocol.”

        No, she would never do that. She’s very reasonable and understanding. So are the parents, based on my prior experiences with them. They’re definitely NOT the type of people who would respond to my situation with, “How dare you have a problem with my beautiful children screaming, you evil baby hater!” Neither is anyone in my church.

    17. Might Be Spam*

      You mentioned anxiety, so I wonder if you have some subconscious memories that are being triggered. My anxiety went through the roof when the baby downstairs cried. I realized that my extreme stress was a fear response, from remembering my fear about how my parents were when my sisters cried.
      Realizing the trigger, and being able to tell that the parents were appropriately caring for the baby, helped my stress go way down, even though it was still annoying and kept me awake.

      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        That’s not the case with me. It’s purely sensory, so your solution won’t work. I’m glad it worked for you, though!

  63. Emma*

    Our household, including a couple of little kids, has covid. Any advice for getting through this? Things you liked eating, strategies for keeping little kids busy?

    The adults have so little energy, so we’re leaning into screentime.

    1. EveryDayICheckMyEmailandForWhat*

      For my family, taking turns sleeping on the couch was a god-send. Staying propped up helped with the cough and mucus, we wouldn’t wake up anyone with all the constant fussing and coughing, and the kids thought it was hilarious that one of us was “camping” in the living room. We spent a day making a little paper bonfire (black construction paper for coal, paper towel tubes for logs, etc.) and other “camping” stuff which was a lot of fun but low energy. We also did a lot of canned soup and applesauce since our strain came with a nasty sore throat. Our pharmacy also had electrolyte-replacing freeze pops, which were a huge hit.

      1. Emma*

        Pedialyte Popsicles – genius! I’ve been worried about kid hydration, so this is really helpful. Just ordered them for pickup.

        I like the camping idea. I think we have some stuff we could use for this.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      Screentime, and this may be the time to lean into that new streaming service that wasn’t worth the money last week.

      A bunch of takeout that can be reheated, such as Thai noodle and rice and soup dishes.

    3. Double A*

      Talk to your doctors about Paxlovid if you can. It truly helped cut down the length and severity of our COVID when we got it.

      1. carcinization*

        And if you get Paxlovid, some kind of hard candy would be helpful due to the side effect of a bad taste in ones mouth!

  64. Indolent Libertine*

    Oof, I’m NT but this would annoy the whatever out of me also. Kids are wonderful AND they do not belong everywhere all the time.

    I think I wouldn’t raise the issue immediately, in case it was a one-off (maybe the kids were sick and asked not to come to babysitting? or something?). But if it happens again, maybe a script along these lines:

    “I don’t want to come across as a baby-hater or a curmudgeon, but for X out of the last Y Sundays, there have been kids who are too young to sit quietly remaining in the sanctuary after they’re supposed to have gone downstairs to child care, and they’ve cried loudly and yelled and generally disrupted the service. I’m neurodivergent in several ways, and the sound of crying, etc. from very young kids is something that makes it truly impossible for me to focus on the spiritual state that I want to find when I come to church. Is it possible to make sure that families actually do take the kids who should be in child care downstairs, so there can be a peaceful adults-only time for those of us who really need it?”

    1. Emily Byrd Starr*

      That sounds like a perfect solution! That’s actually along the lines of what I was thinking of doing, but all the variations of “how DARE you not want to hear my beautiful baby in church, you evil baby-hater!” made me hesitate. I’m glad to hear that some NT people feel the same. (For what it’s worth, I also know ND people who are not bothered on a sensory level by crying babies. Everyone is different.)

      2. ABC123*

        I might pull back even further and get the full scope of information first. Then, you can adapt your expectations and request.

        I would recommend starting the conversation in a really basic way: explain your audio needs, that you have seen a pattern of children at the past few services, a quick overview of how that affects you, and that you are brainstorming solutions that work for everyone, so you are looking for input for solutions. Then, you can get to the important part – asking about what the leaders expect from parents during the service. Aka: you have noticed that children are encouraged to go downstairs, but you are unclear if this is mandatory or optional. If it’s mandatory, there are now follow up questions – maybe there is an extenuating circumstance with a particular family and you can politely ask if this will be a recurring situation so you can make plans.

        Basically, just treat this conversation like you are all on the same side and you’re open to good ideas. In a lot of your other posts, it seems like you are setting yourself and your needs in opposition to parents/kids. If you do this, it’s a competition and you won’t win, as you have already experienced. You might have evidence of discrimination on your side, but you can be both right and also politely ignored.

        Before the conversation, you might think about what compromises you are willing to make so you can manage your expectations. Things like not participating in choir so you can go to non child friendly service times, focusing on attending other adult only events, or hoping that they want to do a sensory friendly service. If you start the conversation from a place where you have accepted that you might have to adjust your plans and that you are trying to meet people in the middle, it can help the other person realize that you are being reasonable, which can help people want to join you. If you walk in and the conversation has a hint of the idea that either they have to kick out kids or else they are being ableist, you might be the one politely walked to the door.

        At it’s core, your request is for a leader to prioritize your needs over another groups’ needs and enforce behavior for parents of young children, a group that enjoys a great deal of support, just like you feel you deserve. This is a big ask. I hope it goes well.

    2. Maggie*

      I’d definitely recommend checking the policy first and talking to the pastor about general expectations. It may not be a rule or even a guideline that kids have to leave – it might just be something most people do. And is the service meant to be peaceful adults only time? That sounds lovely but I’ve never been to a church that enforced that children go out, or positioned the service as “adults only”. Like is it actually a church policy that all kids are required to be taken out? I feel like probably not? What if you had a 4 week old baby or something?

      1. WS*

        Policy on quiet spaces are usually “pre-walking kids are fine but if they cry, take them out of the quiet space.”

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