open thread – May 3-4, 2024

by Alison Green on May 3, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Swedish Chef*

    One of my colleagues created a problem that I had to fix. He made this problem known by notifying me by email, telling me there is a problem and copying my boss, my boss’s boss (a VP) and his subordinate but without saying any details that it was he who caused the problem to happen in the first place.

    It took me ten minutes to fix the problem and to discover it was his actions that created it. So I emailed back, copying everyone, saying the problem is fixed and next time someone needs something done to please ask me instead of going into the system themselves and try to do it. Although I was furious I mustered as much good humor as I can in this email to be diplomatic.

    I also spoke to this colleague one on one and explained what caused the problem and why he shouldn’t do it again. He agreed and apologized for causing me much stress.

    Negative feelings linger in me on two things

    (1) He never apologized or acknowledged it was his actions that caused the problem in the email chain with the VP and my boss. His original message made it seem as if the problem just materialized out of nowhere when in reality it was his manual action that caused it.

    (2) Why did he have to copy my boss and the VP to call attention to this? Couldn’t he just easily notify me alone and I will fix it without creating a fuss? I can’t shake the feeling this person was doing this deliberately to sabotage and to undermine me.

    Moving forward, I plan on treading carefully with this person as someone who I cannot trust. To what extent should I involve my boss or talk to my boss about this as something that bothers me? My boss and I generally have a good working relationship and I think would be interested in knowing if there is anything that is affecting my work or morale at work.

    As far as what outcome I’d like from the meeting with my boss, I would like (a) for this person’s boss to talk to them and say if there is any issue that needs to be fixed in the future, to come to me directly instead of emailing directors and VPs about it; and (b) consistently doing things like #2 above gives an appearance of trying to bully and undermine your colleagues, and creates a hostile work environment. And that the organization does not tolerate these types of actions from employees.

    1. I Can't Believe It*

      Has this person done other things that appear that they are trying to undermine or sabotage yourself or others?

    2. Former Local*

      is this a pattern? I work in IT and have to always remind myself “Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.”

      Often I’ve had users break something by doing something they think should work, and then emailing the world saying “the system is broken”, and it’s basically always just incompetence and just… how people treat IT. not saying it’s great, but normal. Is the thing they broke something that could be managed with a change in Security going forward?

      1. Bruce*

        Maybe have a chat with your boss about it, but don’t insist they take action for a single event. They may say that you should let it be for now but watch for a pattern. Like you said “consistently doing things like #2” is a problem, but people can have lapses here and there without it becoming a pattern.

      2. Beth*

        Yep, my version of the mantra is “Never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance”. You can expand this to include stupidity, incompetence, egotism, entitlement, bloody-mindedness, bad luck, etc.

        As far as trust goes — well, you can’t trust this dude not to screw up things, but you can’t trust anyone not to screw up, including yourself. The guy apologized, which is more than I personally expect anyone to do when they’ve been caught with egg of their face. He might even do better next time.

        I’d need a lot better reason to suspect malice than “dumb guy didn’t admit that he messed up, and maybe didn’t even realize it”. When something like this happens at my work, I usually think of the most recent time I screwed up myself. This puts many things in perspective.

      3. not nice, don't care*

        OMG I get this all the time with the service I provide. People break it, then submit a trouble ticket as if gremlins somehow manifested and ran amok. Yeah, I can actually see your trail of destruction ppl.

      4. JSPA*

        I’ve done that. “If I can’t figure it out / can break it so easily, maybe this is a general problem that needs to be dealt with at some level above the individual incident” is seductive reasoning.

        It turns “well, I was an idiot, durrrr, and the cause of my own frustration”

        into,

        “but at least maybe I can protect other people from their own stupidity by loudly doing a deep dive into (uh, something I’m not actually qualified to comment on further) while insisting that Someone should have anticipated (my toxic blend of doggedness, impatience and stupidity) and blocked me from creating minor digital carnage.”

    3. Random Academic Cog*

      I get why you’re upset, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to go to your boss about a one-time issue and I REALLY don’t think you’re going to get the results you want if you do go to your boss about it.

      You can also review previous interactions with him to see if you maybe didn’t get to his previous requests as quickly as you do other requests (common when you dislike someone or their specific system you have to support – you just can’t deal with whatever BS they are bringing today and put it off for tomorrow). If that turns out to be the case, you can go to him and apologize for the delays and promise to do better moving forward. It happens, and a sincere acknowledgement and effort to resolve goes a long way in tamping this sort of thing down if there was some justification for his escalation.

      Your CC response threw the shade you wanted (making it clear to everyone HE caused the problem) while still leaving you able to plead professionalism, so I would call this one a wash. Personally, given how skillfully you shaded your original response, I would stick with that tactic. And maybe copy his boss in on the response.

      Be cautious and only consider escalating if 1) there is a pattern of this behavior (though I’d imagine the big bosses will deal with it on their own if they keep getting pulled into petty issues by staff several steps down the ladder), 2) he truly has no justification for being concerned about your responsiveness, and 3) you run out of opportunities to showcase to the upper levels that he is an idiot who is messing things up for himself.

    4. Silver Radicand*

      He honestly might have just been trying to save face while panicking about the issues he caused and couldn’t fix. Unfortunately, people do weird things when embarrassed sometimes. It’s strange, but I wouldn’t conclude any ill intent solely from this interaction.
      Ideally, you could address it by stating in your reply copied to everyone that the next time “he” needs something done instead of “someone” so it’s clear, while not being accusatory, that this was caused by him and not someone else.
      Given the weirdness, you might keep an eye open for other irregularities from this person, but if they were civil in person and follow your requested procedures in the future, you can probably chalk this up to someone having a bad day.

    5. Cypress*

      I am curious if there’s some additional context, similar to what I Can’t Believe It was asking, that might lend credence to whether there was malicious intent. I think it’s good to give folks the benefit of the doubt where reasonable. It’s possible that your coworker panicked and was trying to just keep people informed who may need to be (though including the VP is weird, but if they’re very early career, they may have assumed they were being helpful). They may also have just been too embarrassed to admit it was their fault. Not great, but not necessarily malicious either.

      Regardless, I think it’d be inappropriate to try and direct this person’s boss to give feedback. I do think it would have been fine to make that request yourself when you first talked with him, but going back now would be a bit much. At most, I’d recommend approaching this as a practical workflow concern with your boss rather than trying to point fingers. Is there a workflow in place for raising concerns? Can we set up expectations? Who should be looped in at what level of urgency, etc. This is much more in your remit and will probably come off a lot less accusatory/defensive.

    6. Annony*

      I wouldn’t bring it up to your boss yet. Right now it is a one time annoying incident that your boss is already aware of. Complaining to your boss about it kind of comes across the same as his initial CCing of higher ups unnecessarily. You don’t need his boss to step in yet. It isn’t a pattern of behavior.

    7. Tio*

      How big of a problem was this?

      IO could easily see the scenario as he didn’t know HE made the problem, saw a big problem and asked everyone for help as it was a high level issue, and when you talked to him in person he seemed apologetic about it. Also, did he imply the problem was somehow your fault? Because I don’t see that mentioned anywhere.

      Yeah, it’s dumb to copy in everyone under the sun sometimes, but if it wasn’t reading as him saying YOU did the problem, you might be taking this a little too personally. But if it did, or if he has a history of being an issue (which I don’t think so as you say this was a flag not to rust him, not his previous actions) then you may want to remember this.

    8. Double A*

      From just the context you provided here, this seems like an overreaction. I get that it can seem threatening and like an immediate escalation when someone CCs your boss; that was really unnecessary and crummy of him. However, unless this is a pattern, I think you should do with him what you wished he had done with you: try to resolve the issue with him before escalating to management.

      I think you should talk to your coworker and spell out your expectations, that he should reach out to you directly before looping in higher ups. Then you can reply all and close the loop, saying something like, “This issue is resolved! Coworker showed me what he had done that caused the issue and I was able to correct it. We discussed preventative measures going forward, and in the future he’ll work with me directly to see if an issue can be resolved before looping in management. Please disregard previous emails about this incident!”

      This shows you being professional and proactive and cognizant of respecting your bosses’ time.

      1. Berin*

        OP already replied all, so to my mind the loop is closed. Adding onto it to emphasize that it was Colleague’s mistake would make me think that OP is actually the one trying to throw Colleague under the bus, since she’s already made it clear in her first reply all that Colleague needs to ask her before making changes to the system on his own.

        1. The Real Fran Fine*

          Yeah, but that’s a good way to close the loop if this coworker (or any other) does this again in the future.

    9. Dasein9 (he/him)*

      I’m one of those people who’s not great with tech. If I caused an issue and needed your help fixing it, one reason I might cc the VP is as part of an explanation of why I haven’t done [task that the VP specifically asked me to do] yet and what steps I’ve taken to correct that. Nothing to do with blaming anyone at all.

      If this colleague has a history of being malicious, yes, let your supervisor know. But if the colleague has just made a mistake and is keeping folks in the loop, that’s just standard communication.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I’m wondering if the cc’ing of the bosses was because it was a significant problem and he wanted to wave the flag hard vs trying to make you look bad. If I think something needs to be clarified with my own boss, I’ll say, “By the way, turns out that…” and he notes it and moves on. I don’t sit and point unnecessary fingers. Sometimes bringing it up to him specifically clues me into processes and resource concerns I was not aware of. He has a bigger picture than I do. Are you more upset about appearing to be the cause or more upset that it happened?

    10. saskia*

      I think a meeting about this is unnecessary unless it’s a pattern. When this happened, I would’ve said something like this.
      “Hi [name], thanks for letting me know about this issue. I went into the system and noticed the issue was trigged when you did action X. In the future, please use [appropriate channels] when you need this action done to avoid this outcome. Fortunately, I fixed the problem, and the system is back to status quo. If you’re still unsure of the process for [doing the thing], let’s set a meeting to review. Best, Swedish Chef.”

      Some people freak out when issues happen and they don’t have insight into what caused it. If this happens again, you can try saying above and then flagging it to your boss.

    11. Berin*

      I think that you are taking the situation really personally, especially as this is a first occurrence. A colleague CCing your boss and VP is not bullying, nor is it creating a hostile work environment. Your colleague apologized to you and agreed to handle the situation differently moving forward; that’s really not the actions of a bully, and him getting a talking-to about a one-time occurrence for which he’s already apologized is overkill.

      I’m not knocking you for your frustration over the situation; I’ve been in the same position, and have had to be counseled to modulate my reactions to this sort of thing. I would often ascribe others’ mistakes or misjudgments to malice, which was unwarranted 99.9% of the time. A little grace here will go a long way.

    12. Swedish Chef*

      Thanks to everyone who replied! Whoo boy I am glad I posted this before looping in my boss. My emotions and anger was getting the best of me and reading your responses really calmed me down a great deal. This person has a habit of CCing higher ups for issues and emails that don’t really need it. This wasn’t the first time they copied my boss and a VP on something that could easily be resolved privately. This is highly annoying and gives me the impression of attempting to trip me up in front of the higher ups. I’ve tolerated this for months and yesterday was the first time they did it with something that is highly visible, which involved screwing something up in a major way and making it appear as if the screw up happened magically on its own but asking me to fix it. But my head is much cooler now. I appreciate all who responded.

      1. Shiara*

        One thing that’s helped me in a similar situation is to remember that sometimes things like that are learned behavior from different work cultures. There are absolutely places that, for one reason or another, WANT upper bosses CCd on all cross department communication, and sometimes those habits carry over when people move into work environments where that’s not the norm.

        Sometimes it helps to tell myself something like that is probably happening, and trust that if it isn’t, my work will speak for itself.

        I’ve also had a colleague who was required to do this when emailing my department, even though it wasn’t the norm for my office. I’m honestly not sure what the whole story on that one was.

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          This is very important. I’ve worked multiple places where the grand boss required us to CC them. One office required me to CC the grand boss of people I was emailing in a specific department, you can imagine how that was.

          You say that this person also reports to a skip-level manager. In the past I have CC’d higher ups because my skip level told me to for that specific situation.

    13. Victoria*

      As others have said, I think you’re overreacting in a moment of stress. Shake it off, roll your eyes internally, and get on with your week.

      I do want to flag one thing you said: My boss and I generally have a good working relationship and I think would be interested in knowing if there is anything that is affecting my work or morale at work.

      If you continue to have such a strong reaction to this, this is the kind of thing your boss would want to know about… but not for the reasons you’re hoping. She’d want to be aware that this small irritation caused an outsized reaction for you, and would want to keep an eye on whether it’s an ongoing problem.

    14. Choggy*

      As an aside, can the system be locked down so changes cannot be made except by authorized (and trained) personnel?

    16. Janeric*

      If you haven’t had other undermining problems with him, I might assume he has trouble with a sense of proportion and a tendency to escalate situations instead of quietly checking in about issues 1:1.

  2. Dilbert*

    Are there any Canadian federal public servants who read this blog?

    I’m just crushed by this week’s announcement of the mandatory return to the office 3x a week. I don’t work in the same city as my colleagues, and I’m devastated that I will be commuting now 3x a week in order to sit by myself at a cubicle and make video-calls with other public servants across the country, who also come into the office for no reason. Despite the biggest strike in North American (by some estimates) last year, the union was useless, and the government immediately reneged on the Work From Home agreement. I took this job working from home permanently, and my department said we’d never require people to go back into the office. Yet here we are.

    After years of pay frustrations, this really feels like the last straw.

    Now after the announcement, the director general (grand boss) of my office is having a meeting to discuss the new return to the office requirement. I’d love to push back, but I also know his hands are tied, and no one has any discretion. So what do I say at this meeting? “It is what it is.” “This is total BS.” Sometimes I think I should just be quiet and leave my camera off, both to get across how crazy this rule is, and to avoid saying something indelicate about being forced into the office 3x a week for absolutely no reason when I am filled with emotion.

    Obviously I’d love to quit, but I’m only 11 years from retirement, and my skill set is completely focused on a subject used solely by the public service, so I don’t have a lot of transferable skills.

    So my question to the group is… do I say anything at today’s meeting to discuss the new requirements, knowing everyone is as P.O.’d as me? If so, what?

    1. May second.*

      I’d ask privately if there’s any wiggle room, not at a meeting. Good luck to you!

    2. in the same boat*

      Another fed here (in a region…. Oh the teams calls of it all!)

      The first thing is, will it make any difference? Realistically this happened TO everyone below the level of the DMs and outside of cabinet / TBS. They are clearly set on the policy since the response to the leak was to just go for it. The only mass action that will likely be effective is through the unions, and since this was technically outside the purview of the telework issues negotiated by PSAC I don’t know if the complaint will go anywhere… even so it may be worth noting displeasure individually.

      What do you know about your DG? Do they tend to listen to their staff, bring relevant issues forward, etc.? They certainly can’t do anything directly, since exceptions are at ADMs or above, but they of course are working with their ADMs more closely. I guess this will also depend on what they say in the call!

      Also, what’s your TL / manager like? Not so much that they can do anything, but to gauge the risks of them hearing you speaking up.

      With all that in mind, if you do go for it, I would say something like “This policy is not aligned with the work I and many others do (give example). I am also very concerned about the impact of this policy on our ability to recruit / retain employees / meet our equity goals / support whatever needs. What is being done to ensure that happens?” Essentially, since the desires of one person are unlikely to take you anywhere, try appealing to a broader issue…?

      Good luck!

      1. Dilbert*

        I mean, I’m sure the DG will listen. But I also know he can’t do anything. Or can he…

        I’m a manager myself, and I also struggle with what to tell my staff. “Yes this sucks, but it’s important for the economy that you buy a lot of gasoline, so we will follow direction and do this. Yes the employer did screw over our union during the last negotiations (for those not aware, here managers are often in the same unions as their employees), but what’s done is done; what’s important is that we comply at any cost, even lost productivity.”

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I am not Canadian so I’m not up on the details.

      But I am a US Federal employee and when something comes in from on high like this and your boss and boss’s bosses can’t make a change, I just suck it up.

      I may speak privately with my boss and ask about discreet leeway to the policy, but I wouldn’t bring your displeasure up in a public meeting because the people in the meeting likely agree with you already but their hands are tied.

      1. Dilbert*

        You’re right, I’ll just sit there and say no comment during the meeting.

    4. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      I can’t speak to Canada, but I can tell you in the US, for government workers, the primary driver is politics. No one will admit this – they’ll use every other reason they can find – but it is not lost on many of us that our private sector counterparts still view us negatively, and allowing permanent work from home options would only fuel the fire. I have friends who are well aware of what my job entails and how much I work who have said as much to my face! Said friends are on permanent work from home schedules in their roles.

    5. RecoveringFed*

      Yes that’s just devastating. I was in a similar situation and ended up switching to a different job, in part due to this frustration. There is next to no official flexibility on this one, but unofficial flexibility seems much more common. That said, you probably have to continue showing up in person at least some of the time. You know your DG best, but I would have been comfortable registering my displeasure and acknowledging that there was nothing they could do about it at the same time.

      2. Dilbert*

        Boss just said to the team, “at least we’ll be together more often.” Forgetting about me and everyone in the region who are in different cities.

    6. spcepickle*

      I don’t work in Canada, but I do work for the state of Washington and I am dreading a similar call when we get a new governor next year. My answer hinges on the question – “Who would know if you just don’t go in?” I know it sounds flippant, but while I know in theory someone could see what web address I log in from nobody ever will. It just took a 6 month FIGHT to fire someone who had not done a days worth of work in 9 months. I know my group would never fire someone who did there work just from a slightly different location.

      In government service we get rules made at the top level that in reality never trickle down and are often ignored for the 2 years it takes from them to get forgotten.

      Speaking up at the meeting really depends on your capital, position, and who the meeting is with. I would feel fine telling my grandboss that 3x a week in an office was silly and explain some really reasons why but I would not voice that at any higher level meetings. My grandboss has a surprising amount of power when it comes to which rules he cracks down on and which rules he just gives lip service too.

      Good luck – and if it doesn’t work for you in Canada, Washington State is hiring like crazy!

      1. Dilbert*

        Thanks. I guess I’m hearing it’s probably not worth speaking up at today’s meeting about it. I just know Alison often says to come out as a group about an issue, and I know no one is happy about this change.

        We ARE tracking it! I get an email every week about who was and wasn’t in the office each week, and I need to justify absences (a lot of, “I swear they want to follow the in-office direction; they’re just on vacation this week!”). Would we ever fire someone for not doing it? I dunno man, we take it sooo seriously, more and more each week.

        Thanks for your thoughts.

        1. JSPA*

          Send in reports about the fob reader not working, but you got in anyhow? Interspersed with reports about the fob reader not working (you came in early to check) so you’re returning home to work from home? Interspersed with badging-in a couple-three times in a row, And thanking them for whatever they did to get the reader working again?

          (I suppose there’s no chance of taking a leave of absence, in the hopes of political winds changing, and/or more strikes?)

        1. GythaOgden*

          And if your colleagues are routinely in the office, they’re going to notice your absence.

    7. PublicServant2*

      I am located in the NCR, and was equally crushed by this, in so many ways.
      – Learning about this change through the news?! This felt like a slap in the face vs. receiving the news through our employer, manager, executive, etc.
      – The messaging is contradictory to the financial investment put in hoteling stations, not renewing building leases, etc. and the values of respect, mental health, wellness, etc.
      – We have proven that we are effective when working from home.
      Unfortunately, other than following the messaging from Unions, there is not much that can be done. From my experience, some departments do not enforce this rule equally, so I think that as an employee, if you choose to remain in the public service, you have to shop around.

      1. Dilbert*

        I guess the whole thing is a slow boil back to 5x a week. Not even pretending it’s for a productivity purpose.

    8. anon_sighing*

      They had this at the US federal job I was at about a year ago. There wasn’t even enough space in our office to accommodate the number of workers coming in 3x a week – not to mention some computers were directly remote’d into, so even if the person wasn’t in the office, their computer was out of commission (lest the other person using it be logged out). Just a mess — and it was delayed for some time because of it…so hoping it’s gradual and there is some wiggle room.

    9. this-is-fine.jpeg*

      “only 11 years from retirement” is a long time? I’d like to gently push back on the idea that your skills aren’t transferable to another job or field.

      1. Former Local*

        I hear ya, but no one else is going to give you a pension like the feds, unfortunately.

      2. Dilbert*

        Expert in the gov’t classification system? doesn’t apply anywhere else, isn’t like anywhere else. It sucks, but it’s either working directly for the feds or contracting for the feds. Took me 6 years just to get the gov’t accreditation.

    10. Panda (she/her)*

      I work in public sector and we just got mandated back in the office 5 days a week starting in the summer. Previously was 3 days a week.

      I do get why though. There is collaboration that just doesn’t happen when you’re all remote – and I say that as someone who has worked in fully remote, fully in office and hybrid environments. Now, this does depend on being at the same location as your colleagues, so I sympathize there – but let’s not pretend there’s no benefit to seeing people face to face.

    11. Definitely Anon for This One*

      Oh, definitely. And at my department, we got the notice about 3 days on Wednesday, May 1st (CoB on International Workers’ Day? GTFOH) and on Thursday, we got a reminder that hey! this coming week is GBA+ Awareness Week! and that May is Mental Health Awareness Week (gotta get in a word about that sweet, sweet EAP program, don’t we?)

      And that bull about collaboration? BAH. That only applies to the senior cadres who benefit from having the noses of their minions up their rear ends.

      I’ve already stocked my pantry so that I can take lunches from home until the day I die.

      # EatFresh # LisaNeedsBraces # BurntByPhoenix

  3. Hills to Die on*

    I heard from my recruiter that he is seeing salaries drop – as much as $10/hour and there isn’t a lot of movement in the job market. I am in Denver but I am not limiting myself to this area. Does anyone have experience they can share / what are you seeing in job market?

    1. Tio*

      I’m a hiring manager, and our salaries mostly rose last year. However, are you in a tech field? That might be more of a supply vs demand thing with all the layoffs. If not, I have no idea.

      1. Hills to Die on*

        Program Manager – I can be in IT or not. I have been in both. Maybe it’s time to look on the business side. Thanks!

        1. Tio*

          We have PMs, and I believe their salaries are on par with the rest of the company – our company is very good about that. But we’re a private industry and nothing to do with government. I’m reasonably confident you could make decent money here, but I don’t think we have any positions open because they fill up so fast. (They’re also in a different division from me, so I don’t have as much info on it)

      1. Hills to Die on*

        Maybe I should revisit the public sector – I have experience with the state. Thanks!

    3. Generic Name*

      I am in the Denver area, and our team has about 4 openings right now, all at the 20+ years of experience level, one opening in Denver, others across other offices we have nationwide, and we are not having any luck getting good candidates. Salary starts at $140k, which I think is good, but I was also underpaid for years, so maybe not? I did ask the hiring manager why we set the experience level so high and suggested we consider posting jobs for other levels as well. I noticed a similar issue at my former company. They had a really tough time hiring for project managers with 10+ years of experience, but I assumed because the pay was crap at that place. I think the issue is because people with the specialized skills to work in our industry are rare.

      2. PotatoRock*

        Mmm 20 years experience for $140k does seem low to me in Denver, esp. with specialized industry experience (when you have a small pool, you are either waiting for someone to very luckily happen to be looking when you’re hiring, or you need to offer a significant raise to tempt someone away from a stable job they’re happy at. And on average, people with 20+ years of experience tend to have more constraints/less willingness to move cities for a job (kids, spouse’s career, owning a house)

        1. Generic Name*

          This is good info. To be clear, that’s the bottom of the range. I don’t recall what the top of range is. $175k maybe?

          1. PotatoRock*

            Oh gotcha, nevermind, that sounds more typical and in line with our offerings

        2. Anonymous Koala*

          Seconding this – I’m in fed gov and our project managers make $140k with about 10 years experience (and we’re notorious for underpaying people)

    4. Sloanicota*

      I think with salaries in my field (nonprofit, so traditionally low salaries) it’s “relative to when” – during the shakeup of the Great Resignation I feel like I saw better salaries, then a downward pressure, and now I feel like it’s a bit up. But remote jobs are still more competitive, I think.

    5. PotatoRock*

      I am in Denver, tech, and while the market is tighter than 2021 I would not jump to $10/hr lower. All our PM roles are salaried, we’re not lowering bands but eg. we are hiring people into junior bands we pretty much weren’t using in 2021

      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        oh I was going to ask why you thought 140K was “low” in another comment.

        I don’t think $140K for 20 years experience is low at all. It’s definitely not what it used to be but I’m in a higher COL are and there are a lot of people living OK (or very well if dual income household) on that or less. Sometimes alot less.

        Just curious, also you said “specialized industry experience,” I’ve noticed many people on the internet saying they have “niche” experience as if that means they should get paid extremely well. Not realizing that most people have “niche” experience!

        1. PotatoRock*

          It definitely depends on what the niche experience is in! But I was mostly thinking about the “niche experience” in context of “we pay $140k-$175k but our 20-years-niche-experience positions still take a long time to fill”. I was trying to say that for niche experience, it’s actually normal for them to take a long time to fill when you offer normal fair market comp – if you want to fill a position quickly, you need to offer really really good comp. That’s because when there’s a lot of people with the skills you need, you probably have a reasonably large # looking for a new job at any given time for normal reasons – they’re relocating, they got a new boss they don’t like, layoffs, etc – and many of those people would apply for basically a lateral job at your company. If there’s 20 people in the world you have the niche experience you need, you either have to be willing to wait until they’re looking for other reasons (job takes a long time to fill) or you need to offer them something /much/ better than their current situation.

          1. Busy Middle Manager*

            oh you mean actual niche experience lol. I’ve gotten so use to overusing the word niche. Jobs sub on reddit is like “I have super niche experience booking accounting transactions at a retailer” and I want to scream, “the fact that you work in a random industry is not what makes something niche!”

    6. Busy Middle Manager*

      Corporate America, NJ. Passively look through NE and the number of listings absolutely nosedived, no one I know has gotten laid off but no one can move on or up, the job market definitely feels frozen.

      Same exact thing before GFC. I said it, everyone said I was crazy or I must be the problem. Then the numbers eventually confirmed what I was seeing and was TBF obvious (surely I am not the problem if I can’t even find jobs to apply to)

    7. PotatoRock*

      Also, I would not take your recruiters’ word for it – I know a lot of companies are posting ridiculously wide ranges, but use Colorado’s pay transparency law to your advantage – listings should have salary ranges now

      1. Hills to Die on*

        Yeah, I am thinking I need to switch that up. He’s become a legit friend but I feel like there is more out there than what he has available (especially after seeing these responses to my post).

    8. Jake*

      We are in Illinois, and we rose offers starting 2 years ago by nearly 50%. They are still around that level, with them increasing minimally since.

      We still have a hard time attracting folks with less than 10 years of experience.

      We aren’t seeing the rapid growth from previous years, but we haven’t pulled back either.

    9. Hydrangea*

      The WSJ just had a good article (currently highlighted on LinkedIn) on how much people are struggling in this job market.

      I’m in marcom and salaries are definitely dropping. I see jobs posted offering salaries lower than what was offered 10 years ago. That said, some of the higher end jobs posted still offer good salaries.

    10. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’m in tech and salaries are stable or slightly higher. I hire nationally in the US.

  4. Nitpicky Indeed question*

    How do you all format your job history on Indeed when you’ve had multiple titles at a single employer?

    I’ve been in the same general role at the same company, with increasing levels of responsibility for most of a decade.

    On my paper resume, I format this as:

    Llama Groomers Inc, 2015-present
    Senior Llama Grooming Specialist, 2020-present
    Senior Llama Groomer, 2017-2020
    Junior Llama Groomer, 2016-2017
    Associate Llama Groomer, 2015-2016
    -Directed llama grooming teams
    -Pioneered new llama combing techniques
    -etc

    However, Indeed doesn’t give the option of multiple titles at a single company. There’s not really enough separation between these roles to write out separate accomplishments for each of them (and frankly, I no longer remember which specific title I held when I did what), so listing them as separate jobs doesn’t seem workable. Has anybody else hit on a good solution to this?

    1. TheBunny*

      Indeed sucks for this. I’m in the same boat.

      I have mine like this:

      Teapot Company – 2018 to 2023
      Head Teapot Maker – 2022 to 2023
      Assistant Teapot Maker 2020-2022

      I have the things I did under each role grouped together as one since it’s all the same company.

      Indeed hates it

  5. argle frast*

    Coworker, although not close colleague, keeps making comments about how in shape I’ve gotten over the last year and how envious she is. Latest conversation: I asked if she would like me to share my homebrewed workout plan with them. She burst into tears. I don’t love the comments about my body and now I feel like there’s an emotional labor component involved since she evidently has some sort of hang-up that I am not qualified to address. Any advice?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Don’t bring it up, don’t offer the workout plan again. If she makes another comment, ask her politely to stop.

      “I know you mean it as a compliment, but the comments about my body have gotten to be a lot. I’d rather drop the subject entirely.”

    2. Accidental Manager*

      “Please stop making comments on my body. I’ve obviously upset you with my response and I don’t want to continue to do that.”

      1. danmei kid*

        Mmmmm I don’t like this reply as much as some of the others. Shaming/blaming the other person about being upset is not kind. Maybe you don’t intend it to read that way, but that’s one way it can be read.

        1. Accidental Manager*

          I can see that – it wasn’t my intent, but it could certainly come out that way. Trying to convey concern for her upset without apologizing for it. Tone is important!

    3. NameRequired*

      I would start with explicitly telling her something like “I don’t want to talk about my body at work, it makes me uncomfortable.”

      Then, if she continues, be incredibly boring and give her no details “Like I said, I don’t want to talk about my body at work,”

      And then if it continues, go to an authority of some sort.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think you can use Alison’s classic “Oh, I’d prefer not to talk about my workout routine at work! How’s (subject change)?” approach. You can’t manage her feelings about this, especially if she’s going to get upset when you *do* offer to share what you’re doing (a not unreasonable reaction to the constant comments about how envious she is).

      1. Bruce*

        I like the (subject change), this person sounds fragile so giving them an offramp is a good idea

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      I would say something like, “listen, I could tell in our last conversation that this topic was really upsetting to you. It’s also frankly uncomfortable for me to talk about–ESPECIALLY knowing how upset you are. Let’s please just avoid it from here on out, and talk about other things. Deal?”

    6. NaoNao*

      What the…

      She kept asking you, you answered, and she burst into tears? Is the homebrewed workout plan incredibly difficult or does it require like…a Pilates Reformer or something? That’s the only thing I can think of that would justify that kind of response. Like if you said “Well, I take my purebred Arabian steed out every day, I find that just works for these thighs of steel”…and even then, she asked!

      I would back way off this person and do the “gray rock” thing, like give really vague answers “Oh, just did some ‘joyful movement’–whatever felt good at the time” or “Hm, not sure, it changes from day to day depending on my mood” + an immediate subject change.

      I personally feel these harsh, clinical “don’t talk about my body” responses are unrealistic for most offices where you want to maintain any kind of positive relationship with the person. She’s already shown she’s super fragile and doesn’t take things stoically. Even delivered in a super-polite tone, the “don’t talk about my body” feels like a rebuke, because it is.

      Maybe just refocus on you “Oh, honestly I’d love to take a break from thinking about it, can we talk about something else?” “I’m trying to get out of the old ‘talk about diets’ trap, let’s talk about something else” and then you immediately bring something up.
      But yeah, odd reaction from her, whatever the case.

      1. Agreed*

        NaoNao, I very much agree with your point about the suggested response coming off as harsh. Ideally, being straightforward would be fine, but in my experience it can be problematic. You put into words the issue with a number of scripts for the workplace I’ve seen here and elsewhere—they are too brusque for 1)preserving relationships or 2)avoiding retaliation from very sensitive coworkers. In addition, the brusque style doesn’t work for me—I am a petite POC and I notice that brusque is accepted from tall White coworkers of all genders, while only the most gentle, diplomatic answers enable me to avoid the pushback I get even with mild objection. I would really appreciate if on AAM and elsewhere there could be two response types given: one for those with brusque styles where that style is accepted, and another for those who need to be more circumspect/ diplomatic. Thanks for bringing this up. One of the many reasons I value this column and community is the ability to have these discussions.

    7. Gyne*

      I would probably try to hide from her for the duration of our mutual employment! She sounds like she has deep issues surrounding body image. If she can’t stop herself from commenting on other people’s bodies, and is fragile to the point where if you engage honestly in the conversation that she cries about it, this is not something you as a distant coworker can solve. I agree with Grey Rocking her if she approaches you about it.

    8. Hyaline*

      First, confirmation that this is weird and uncomfortable and you didn’t do anything wrong–she keeps bringing it up and it sounds like you were trying to be friendly by continuing the conversation. It sounds like this is a really sensitive issue for her that she’s having a hard time navigating–but that doesn’t mean that you need to navigate it for or with her. All human relationships require some emotional labor, but she’s bringing another layer to the table that’s not within the norm! I might try gently setting a boundary that focuses on your preferences, not her weirdness (“Hey, I appreciate the compliments, but I’d really rather not talk about weight or workouts; it’s just not fun for me”). As much as I appreciate the balls of those who can just bluntly say “Do not talk about my body” it sounds…well, not warm even on a good day, definitely a rebuke, and this person sounds like someone who really may not take it well. I would also keep stock pivots ready to go for her–“Thanks, but talking about workouts is so boring–are you doing anything fun this weekend?” “I’m still doing my exercise plan, yeah, but I was meaning to ask about your dog! Is he still digging up your begonias?” or even “Thanks; I’m so glad you dropped by actually, because I have a question about this spreadsheet…”

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, well, the coworker’s discomfort is her own fault, the OP would never had said anything if she hadn’t asked, and her reaction was rather extreme. Being cold and sticking to work talk with unreasonable people is fine, and I think the coworker’s unreasonable here. The OP is allowed to opt out of doing any emotional labor on the coworker’s behalf, and in this case a rebuke is IMO fine if it ensures that the coworker never brings up the subject again. With some people, shaming them is the most effective way to get them to alter their behavior. The OP has no obligation to care about how that makes the coworker feel.

        I’d feel differently if the roles were reversed and the OP had been bragging about their fitness program and attempting to shame people who didn’t want to join them in it.

        I honestly have little sympathy for the coworker, it’s on her to stop bringing up non-work related subjects at work if they’re painful for her. There’s no need for the OP to apologize for making changes in her life that have noticeably altered her appearance in a way that’s generally perceived as positive.

  6. Hakuna Matata*

    I was recently part of an interview panel where questions were provided to us by HR to ask the candidates of a secretary/administrative/front desk worker position. Myself and the other interviewers were debating the best response to one question. It’s a question where there is not necessarily a wrong answer, we want to hear how the candidates logic it out. Here is the question: How do you prioritize the following if they all occurred at the same time?
    A – A customer calls you with a question.
    B – A coworker is at your desk asking for help with the printer.
    C – Your lunch break is in 15 minutes.
    D – Your boss asked you for some documents yesterday and they are due in 15 minutes.

    Again, no wrong answers but my own answer would be the customer on the phone takes priority, and that our work culture is such that direct client requests would always come first. A fellow interviewer argued that the supervisor’s documents should be first because they’re your boss and you drop everything when they ask it; a third interviewer said they’d help the coworker with the printer first because that should be quick and easy (which made me laugh because our printers are complicated and I usually ring up IT rather than go to a coworker).

    It’s not a make or break question that we knock out a candidate if they don’t give our preferred answer, and the way they logic out their responses is what is more important. I’m just curious how you would respond.

    1. Raresnail*

      Agree with you, though after working at Amazon for awhile that is obviously what answer my bosses would want.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      In this situation, I’d answer the call, ask the customer to hold for one moment, send a quick email to my boss to tell them there was a slight delay as I was helping a customer but the documents would be there soon, and tell my coworker that it would be a while before I was able to help them, then get back on the call.

    3. Tio*

      I feel like mine would be A, D, B, C

      I feel like any decent boss would understand prioritizing a customer’s needs, and a coworker who’s got a printer problem is pretty low urgency, but I would try and help them before I went on break unless doing A and D took a long time, in which case I might need to tell them to come back later or ask someone else

    4. Le Former Sandwich Artiste*

      This is fun to think through. I would talk to A long enough to determine if I could answer the question (or dispatch the call to another person) within one minute; if not, ask A to hold. Thank B for their patience and explain I would be with them shortly. Handle the documents for D; finish up with A; then B; then go to lunch.

    5. Interesting question*

      Address A. Unless you are the only printer expert, tell B to get help elsewhere. D – Give your boss a heads up the documents might be a few minutes late as you are helping a customer. C – you might need to eat a bit later

    6. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      C is the bottom of my list–I usually work straight through lunch, and when I’m onsite, peers usually have to all-but-literally drag me to lunch with them. I’d give a wide berth to anyone who manages their blood sugar and has to prioritize lunch higher, and that could be me someday.
      B falls near the bottom of the list. If it’s my lunch time, it could easily be theirs, too. I’m not the only person who can help with the printer–I’m likely not even the person who should be helping with the printer. I’d do it if/when it’s not crowding out higher priorities, though.
      D falls near the top of the list. I try to avoid this situation by getting stuff as reasonably soon after it’s asked for, because this is a no-win situation so the only winning play is to avoid it, but because I’m here, it’s a high priority.
      A tops my list. Being non-responsive to customer needs is a sure and quick way to lose their business.

        1. Siege*

          People, such as the admin staff in my office, who have explicitly-scheduled lunches to ensure that there’s desk and phone coverage????

          If they don’t take their lunches pretty close to on time (ie, within 5 minutes) it has caused meetings they’re in with other staff in the afternoon to have to be rescheduled.

          1. Bruce*

            That’s the catch, coverage and existing schedules. If that is an issue, let the boss know there is some delay.

        2. amoeba*

          I do and so do all of my colleagues, except for the rare cases when meetings run over! We generally go together and people are hungry, so there’s definitely pressure to be on time, haha. But honestly, we don’t usually deal with time-critical emergencies, and that e-mail or presentation can usually wait until after lunch. It’s not like I get more efficient when I’m hungry…

        3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          I used to jokingly refer to grabbing a bite to eat around 5pm (on a shift that started at 8 am) as breakfast and when someone would question it, my response was “what do you call the first meal of the day?”

          It wasn’t the greatest work environment ever.

        4. JR 17*

          Not sure if this is state-specific since California is typically worker friendly – but here, an hourly employee is required to have a lunch break by the beginning of hour 5 of their shift. So if my employee is hitting that mark, I’d tell them they need to stop and go to lunch.

      2. Observer*

        I’d give a wide berth to anyone who manages their blood sugar and has to prioritize lunch higher, and that could be me someday.

        If I’m understanding you correctly, that’s pretty horrifying. And it’s also almost certainly illegal.

        Also, the idea that “I don’t do this thing, so no one else should need to do that thing” is a very, vary bad way to evaluate people.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          I meant I’d completely understand if someone else needed to prioritize C more highly than I do. I could see and understand someone diabetic or under similar circumstances might need for it to be the #1 or #2 priority.

          I took the question as how I would attempt to prioritize, not how they should be prioritized by a generic/abstract individual in that situation.

          1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

            Ah, that makes way more sense. I read it similarly to @Observer and was confused.

            To me, “give wide berth” means “avoid as much as possible” because of a negative connotation. As another commenter says below, “give lots of leeway” is a phrase that’s more in-line with your intended meaning, but your mileage may vary.

              1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

                I do apologize to any and everyone I offended by using that wording in a different way than it was read.

        2. The Real Fran Fine*

          I think what they meant is that they’d give the person who needs to prioritize lunch due to medical reasons a pass for doing that before anything else on the list, but I could be wrong.

          1. vulturestalker*

            Yes, I don’t think they meant they would *avoid* that person, but that they would give them a lot of leeway.

    7. T. Wanderer*

      IMHO:
      -Tell B you need to answer the call first, and handle that — a customer request by phone should be understood to come first. (Customer request by email would be different.)
      -Probably tell B you have some tight deadlines and can look at it after lunch.
      -then D, then C, then follow up with B.

    8. Jamie Starr*

      I would prioritize A since the position seems like dealing with customers would be important. Then D, although if the boss had asked me for documents yesterday, I would have tried to get those to boss the same day, or first thing that morning at the latest.

      Also, I’m kind of side-eyeing the co-worker who can see I’m on the phone. Unless it’s my job to help with the printer, they should either see I’m busy and come back later, contact the IT person, or figure it out themselves.

    9. Caramel & Cheddar*

      ADBC, but with the caveat that I’d message the boss saying I’ve got a customer on the phone right this second because you don’t know how long that call might last.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Yes; a quick IM to the manager outlining “I’m on a call; documents might be delayed” would be in order.

    10. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      A if the question is quick like Yes/No or hours/location — otherwise they will “research the answer and call them back or send them the information.”
      D if the boss asked yesterday they should have them mostly ready by now
      C reception desk should take their scheduled breaks on time so that the coverage person can also have their breaks
      B Last. Coworker can ask someone else for help unless the reception is the one and only printer resource.

      1. Sandi*

        Agreed that A is first for me and would only be a few seconds of writing down the question and getting their info to call them back while explaining that you’re really busy at this moment, or if a very easy question then answer right then.
        D should be nearly ready but if not then that’s the next priority until it’s done.
        Before I start D, suggest to B that they go to IT but if I was the only one who knew how to fix it then tell them I can help as soon as the documents are done or ask if it can wait until after lunch (they might be taking their own lunch and would prefer to wait).
        I’d take my lunch whenever it was all done.

      2. Siege*

        I’m just fascinated by all the people who don’t think a receptionist job would have strictly-scheduled breaks. This is why I agree with your ordering rather than the ADBC others prefer.

        1. Jamie Starr*

          We don’t have information that it’s a receptionist position — the OP said secretary/admin/front desk worker. Maybe the front desk/office isn’t open to the public and it’s more like an Exec Assist/internal front desk. We also don’t know from the letter whether the desk needs coverage while this person is at lunch.

          1. Siege*

            Someone with a front-desk/admin type job couldn’t possibly be in a role that requires coverage because the LW didn’t explicitly say that the front desk needs to be monitored at all times when the business is open. Okay!

            How long do people stand around your office’s lobby waiting to be greeted?

            1. Jamie Starr*

              I’ve worked front desk jobs before where no one covered my breaks. I’ve also worked at places where the Exec. Assist was the default receptionist and when they were at lunch no one covered for them. The building doorman/staff would just call the person who the visitor was meeting with directly.

            2. Lexi Vipond*

              It didn’t occur to me that there would be cover, because the reception desks in my building just shut at lunchtime and you have to come back later or figure out where you’re going yourself (there aren’t a lot of outsiders coming in anyway). And if there is cover, that person can fix the printer.

        2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          I’m more sad that many people think a non-urgent printer request from a coworker comes before taking a lunch break, even if there is no coverage required. Prioritize yourself and basic human needs.

          1. amoeba*

            Yup. For that one, I’d *definitely* go “oh sorry, I have a call and my lunch is coming up, can you come back in 45 mins/ ask XY”?

            I’d say ADCB – although the documents depend on how urgently the boss needs them, honestly. Such an exact deadline (due in 15 mins) seems super unusual for something a boss would ask, at least in my world? We’d be more like “can you get those to me by tomorrow/tonight/lunchtime” and not “by 13.45 tomorrow on the dot!”

            But yeah – take the call, tell them to wait for 1 second, tell colleague to come back after lunch. Deal with customer, hopefully in time to send documents to boss before lunch. If necessary, apologize for slight delay because you were dealing with customer call. Eat. Possibly look at printer, in case it hasn’t been fixed yet.

          2. Observer*

            I’m more sad that many people think a non-urgent printer request from a coworker comes before taking a lunch break, even if there is no coverage required

            Agreed.

            And considering how often people have to use their lunch hour for appointments, it’s really not fair on that account.

          3. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

            But it is not stated that it is a non-urgent printer request. Sometimes that is urgent. Sometimes the Office Admin is the only IT person. In many small offices they subcontract all IT services so there has to be someone who can troubleshoot some stuff before you put in a service ticket that can be filled sometime in the next 5 days

      3. Lady Danbury*

        Agreed. A can either be addressed quickly or take their information so that you can get back to them. Boss’ request should already be completed, unless there were significant issues that should have already been communicated to boss. Reception is almost never the only printer resource, so B can sort it out himself. This triage order should result in lunch at or close to on time.

    11. Peanut Hamper*

      A – Customers come first
      B – If you know the printers are difficult, tell your coworker who they should talk to. Alternately, if the answer is simple (“toner cartridges are in the cabinet”) just give them the information they need and go on to the next thing.
      D – Your boss comes before coworkers
      B – If you know the printer issue is an easy fix (you know how to unjam it, for instance) then you can help your coworker
      C – Lunch!

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Yes, this matters a lot. If you’re the only person on the desk, your lunch may need to be predictable (maybe someone else has to cover, and will eventually want to go on lunch themselves).

        Also, how urgent is the colleague’s printing? Is it another document for the meeting boss is going into in fifteen minutes? Is it a first draft of something that isn’t due until July? Is the printer refusing colour but black and white would do?

        I think you have to answer the phone first. The rest involves nuance.

    13. Anne Bonny*

      B(ish), A, D, B, C.
      > Tell your coworker you need to take the customer call, you’ll find them when you’re done to see if they still need your help.
      > Talk to the customer. Even if you can’t answer the question right then, you can take notes and get back to them with an answer or the contact of someone who can better help them by a certain time.
      > Email/message the boss, tell them you were addressing a customer call and you’ll have those documents to them shortly. Pull the dox together and send.
      > Check in with coworker and see if they still need your help if they haven’t gone to someone else or figured it out themselves.
      > Take lunch.

    14. WantonSeedStitch*

      My logic would be:
      A first. Help the customer before all.
      Then to solve B, tell the coworker you’re utterly swamped, and suggest someone else they could talk to like IT, or offer to take a look at it after lunch if you’re the only qualified person.
      Then you get the documents out.
      Then you take lunch.

    15. DivergentStitches*

      IMO the person in front of you always takes #1 priority. I’d answer the phone, ask them to hold, help the person in front of me, help the customer on the phone, do the supervisor’s task, then take lunch.

      1. amoeba*

        Wait – you’d go and try to fix a printer while the customer is on hold? I mean, sure, if it’s a matter of 5 seconds (“here’s your cartridge”), mayyyybe. But, like, go off and start troubleshooting? That could easily take 10+ mins and I guess most customers would be pretty annoyed by then…

    16. RagingADHD*

      My gut reaction (which usually serves me well in interviews) would be to say that if my boss asked me for documents yesterday, I would have had them done yesterday. But I guess to play the game, we have to assume that something went terribly wrong. It’s also kind of a weird, unrealistic construct that someone can literally only be doing one of these things at a time.

      In the absence of further information, I’d have the printer person wait, and answer the phone while working on the documents. I can then triage what the caller wants, maybe put them on hold for a minute, transfer or take a message.

      If it were a real world situation, there is way too much missing context for me to really assess the best way to handle it:

      What needs to be done to the documents that the boss is waiting on, and how long does it take?
      Am I just starting working on them now (and if so, why), or am I finishing them?
      Do they need to be printed? If so, that obviously changes the math on the printer situation.
      Is the caller asking for something I would normally be the person to help them with?
      Are there knock-on issues for coverage if I take lunch a little later? Otherwise I’m not sure why it’s a factor at all.

      I’m glad you’re not posing it as an overly simplistic “gotcha” type question, because the way one would answer has an awful lot of assumptions built into it about the circumstances, and a lot of those assumptions are things a candidate could not possibly know about your company or the role until they get there.

    17. Nicki Name*

      I feel like a lot of this depends on circumstances.

      * Does the customer need to speak to you specifically or can someone else pick up the phone?
      * Is it part of your job to be the printer expert?
      * Is the timing or duration of the lunch break part of a legal requirement where there may be trouble if you don’t take it, or don’t take it at the scheduled time?
      * How urgently are the documents needed? Are you able to say, “Something just came up, I’ll have them to you in a couple hours”? (Also, why didn’t you able to send them sooner? Is the expectation that you’ll be forever trying to do more than you can handle in this workplace?)

    18. Three Owls in a Trench Coat*

      A – The front desk is about customer service first.
      D – boss is second. However, if the boss assigned this to me yesterday, I would have been working to have it ready earlier than 15 minutes before due (assuming I wasn’t waiting on someone else’s contribution).
      B – I’m usually pretty handy with printers, so I could take a moment for a quick assessment before heading off to ….
      C – lunch break. B and C might switch IF the person who covers the desk during my lunch break has a strict schedule.

    19. Anonymous Educator*

      Here are my thoughts.

      D – Your boss asked you for some documents yesterday and they are due in 15 minutes.

      If it was due in 15 minutes and I was asked for these yesterday, these would already have been done. I wouldn’t still be working on it 15 minutes before it’s due.

      A – A customer calls you with a question.
      B – A coworker is at your desk asking for help with the printer.

      Customer definitely takes precedence over the co-worker.

      C – Your lunch break is in 15 minutes.

      Finish the customer call within 15 minutes. Help the co-worker with the printer after lunch. If it’s a dysfunctional, understaffed workplace, eat lunch while helping the co-worker with the printer and then look for another job.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Yeah, but it’s possible that it’s someone else’s fault that you don’t have those documents yet. I have often had to wait for other people to do their job so that I can do mine.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Then I would have been communicating with my boss about it the whole time and not panicking in the last 15 minutes as to why it’s late.

        2. Jamie Starr*

          But if you know the deadline is noon (for example) to have them to the boss, then you give your co-workers a deadline of enough time that’ you’re not rushing. (Depending on when the request came the day before eg. morning or late in the day.) I’d also make sure they knew these were for Boss so they understood the deadline was Very Important. Obviously there are a lot of unknowns. Like if it’s for a grant submission and you miss the deadline that’s different then if it’s for a meeting later in the afternoon. But that comes back to time management and maybe, as another commenter mentioned, whether the workload is always going to be such that you’re scrambling.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Exactly. I’m David Banner telling the person blocking my path to my sandwich “Please don’t make me angry.”

      2. RagingADHD*

        You stop taking calls or doing anything else 15 minutes *before* your break starts?

    21. Lena*

      A – but request a follow up e-mail because screenshots (and CYA).
      C – because I get hangry and that helps no one.

      B is an issue for internal IT. Printers are the bane of their existence, not mine.
      D would be done already, otherwise I’m no good at my job.

    22. A Girl Named Fred*

      I’m assuming the candidate is able to talk you through their thinking, rather than just picking the letters, and in that case my response as an admin would be along the lines of, “It depends on the context of the boss’s required documents. If I know they’re for an important or high-profile client or project, then they come first and I ask my coworker to wait and will get to the customer’s voicemail later. If the documents are not urgent, or the deadline was more of a “it would be ideal to have it at X, but Y works too,” then I’d probably ask my coworker if they can wait for me to finish a few things before I help. Answer the call and address the issue, finish the documents for my boss, and then check in with coworker to see if they got it figured out in the meantime. Only go to lunch once everything is done.”

      I tend to prioritize people who are directly at my desk over people on the phone, but if it’s just printer help then I’m going to see if what they need can wait. But a lot of those things depend on context of the role that I don’t have, and that the interviewee might not either (IE is this an industry where boss’s word is law and should always be given highest priority, or do customers/clients come first?)

    23. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      If they are capable, I would ask the coworker to assist the client on the phone, see if the printer is an easy fix, finish the documents for the boss, help the coworker if it wasn’t an easy fix and then go to my full break.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        That’s a creative solution to get the coworker to take the customer call, but would I still prioritize boss’ documents over coworker’s printer issue — but I might be petty about people who have learned to be “helpless” to solve a small problem on their own in an office. If the receptionist/admin can fix the printer (or call IT), so can the coworker.

        1. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

          Well it does depend if assisting coworker with printer is in my essential job function or not. If they are just asking because they are used to asking me for everything I would tell them go to the proper person. If, as in many places I have worked, some non IT person is the designated first pass IT person because there is nobody else on site.. it could be different.

          Quite often that person with the extra training/access is the Office admin who may actually have better knowledge of the quirks.

    24. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I hope companies who ask these sorts of questions realize that the question itself is a red flag. You’re basically saying “You’re set up to fail here. How would you like to fail a little less than majorly failing?” Not saying you shouldn’t be able to juggle and multi-task, but if you’re constantly put in situations in which multiple “urgent” things are all happening at once, that’s not a good workplace, and they likely aren’t staffing properly.

      1. Jamie Starr*

        I disagree. I think it’s useful to be able to learn someone’s thought process and how well they can articulate why they made the choices they did. It shows whether they have critical thinking skills. And also whether they can think about these options as they relate to the specific position as well as the organization’s purpose as a whole. For example, dealing with a customer/outside call for my position would be much lower priority, but documents to boss would always be #1. (On a personal note, I also like to hear others’ thought processes because it might make me consider doing something differently.)

        1. Siege*

          Yep, for roles like this, we ask an “impossible” question around managing priorities. It tells us a lot about how people think, whether they listen to the not-complex parameters, and alerts us to if they struggle with the concept – it’s very real but in practice also very unlikely. (It involves an ambiguous error in a document, the two people who can resolve it being unreachable, the end of shift in 15 minutes, and a need for the document before this position’s start time the next day.)

          I will say, the best admin we’ve ever had had the best answer to that question. The others we’ve had have had okay answers to it, and there is a curious correlation between your answer to that question and your ability to do the job well. We hired someone with an okay answer and she quit within three weeks (there were other flags that became apparent after hire). The person currently in the role gave an answer in line with her previous workplace that doesn’t work for our office and has had some real struggles with the difference between us and them.

        2. Anonymous Educator*

          Well, you can disagree, but you’ll also potentially lose out on a lot of good candidates. There are better questions to determine critical thinking skills.

      2. Lexi Vipond*

        Things like to happen all at once. If only two things happen all day, they’ll probably still be at the same time.

      3. OMG, Bees!*

        I mean, it’s a bit of a Star Trek Kobayashi Maru test, just less extreme. Yes, several tasks urgently need to be done at the same time, no you can’t do all of them, how do you deal with it? What gets prioritized and deprioritized? It’s not a full on setup to fail, but every workplace I have seen has at least moments with multiple things happening and *something* needs to fail to the way side occasionally. Now, if this is an everyday occurrence, then yes, it is understaffed and a problem.

    25. jasmine*

      I’d go with A, but I’m presuming that I have a relationship with my boss such that saying “hey a customer called” would be fine. I can’t imagine any documents that are necessary to have on the exact minute.

      If the customer question ends up being lengthy I’d tell them I’m not available and would call them back, and then go to lunch (though I wouldn’t mention that part if asked in an interview lol). Work boundaries are pretty important to me.

      Coworker definitely comes last. Maybe I’d say I’m not sure and suggest they go to IT. Like you I’d probably assume a printer fix won’t be quick lol.

    26. ecnaseener*

      Tbh I might consider “B first” to be the wrong answer. (Or I guess “C first,” but that doesn’t seem like an intended option so much as a qualifier to help you frame the other three options — it’s not like your break is *now.*) “Sorry, boss, I know I promised you the report by noon, but Fergus needed help with the printer” — lol what??

      1. Jamie Starr*

        Right, unless, like someone above pointed out, you (also) need the printer to complete the documents for your boss.

        1. amoeba*

          But then it wouldn’t be *Fergus* who needed help? Like, if the situation was “the whole office can’t print and you’re the only one who knows how to fix it”, yeah, that would obviously change things, but that’s not the scenario here…

          1. Jamie Starr*

            But maybe you didn’t realize the printer was broken until you went to print the docs, or Fergus alerted you to the issue. Which is another reason I’d try very hard to not wait until 15 minutes before they’re due to print them out.

    27. ADBC*

      A. My boss and I don’t have jobs if we don’t have customers
      D. I don’t have a job if my boss isn’t happy
      B. Maybe. Not sure why my coworker knows less about the printer than I do, not enough info there.
      C. Not because I believe it’s right, but more that I believe that’s what they’d want to hear

    28. ADBC*

      A. My boss and I don’t have jobs if we don’t have customers
      D. I don’t have a job if my boss isn’t happy
      B. Maybe. Not sure why my coworker knows less about the printer than I do, not enough info there.
      C. Not because I believe it’s right, but because I believe that’s what they’d want to hear

    29. Annony*

      Hand your coworker the printer manual while answering the customer’s question or getting a callback number if you can’t answer the question quickly. Then finish getting the documents for your boss. Then check on coworkers progress with the printer giving help if necessary and finally go to lunch.

      But overall the question is ridiculous because how I respond is going to be context dependent. How firm is the deadline for the documents? Is there anyone else who can fix the printer or handle the customer? What priorities were conveyed to me by my boss?

      1. Jamie Starr*

        Your second paragraph illustrates exactly why it’s not a ridiculous question. If I asked a candidate this question and they didn’t ask any sort of follow up for context that gives me insight on their thought process, too. They might be the type of person to assume something should be handled the exact same way each time without realizing different circumstances might call for different prioritization. Maybe it should be exactly the same at this company but without asking questions they don’t know that for certain. Someone who assumes they know how to handle the situation and doesn’t ask questions might not be the right type of person for the role. Or they might be the type of person who gets easily stressed by having to deviate from anything unplanned and again, that might be important to know for this role.

    30. Medium Sized Manager*

      A, D, C, B – depending on how long the call takes.

      A – phone calls always trump everything else, even if you have to put them on a quick hold for whatever reason.

      D – This is a good indicator of your work culture. My boss would completely understand if xyz happened and I sent it after lunch. A culture where your boss supersedes all would be concerning to me as an applicant.

      C – I haven’t had a scheduled lunch break in nearly a decade, so less concerned about this but if I am hungry, I will be taking it on time.

      B is so low on my priority list that I doubt you could give me any task that ranks lower. Maybe it’s the gendered component, but my initial thought was why do I, a person who is not in IT and never prints things, have to help with a printer when a bunch of other things are happening?

    31. AwesomeSauce*

      It would be interesting was the interviewee to hear how the interviewers prioritize C. It would be a good insight into the culture and expectations around breaks. If C is always last, then I would expect there to be a flexible lunch schedule. If it’s rigid, then it should be allowed to be prioritized

    32. Pink Candyfloss*

      My personal logic order would be 1) customer 2) boss 3) co-worker 4) lunch. But also, I would ask the co-worker if the printer issue is urgent, and maybe ask if I can swap them to after lunch, because if hangry I may be inclined to smash the printer lol

      1. RVA Cat*

        The answer to the printer will always be get a 3rd co-worker, a baseball bat, and blast “Still” by Geto Boys.

    33. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      It’s impossible to answer this sensibly without further info, e.g. is the printer problem “I want to print out the email HR sent telling us what the payroll cut off dates will be for next year” or “these documents need to be printed and signed immediately or we will have reneged on a contract” etc. My “logic” about this would be that priorities are situational and contextual, so any rule like “your boss’s request always comes first because they are the boss” or whatever, to me it’s the wrong answer (because it’s applying a rule regardless, rather than because bosses’ requests aren’t important). Similarly it depends on how strict the deadline is for the thing the boss wants. I ask people to carry out work and say “we’d like this by lunchtime Friday” or whatever, but with most pieces of work if it gets delayed for a legit reason, that’s fine. I wouldn’t want someone to disregard something more urgent just to complete the “requirements doc for project kick off” etc. Is the printer problem just affecting that person or is it broken for everyone… and so on.

      Having said that, if I had to give an answer based only on the information here, it would be: customer question (answer it if quickly answered, otherwise get the details and get it into a queue to be answered), thing for the boss, printer, lunch.

    34. Blue Pen*

      I’m not in a customer- or client-facing role, so knocking A out, mine would probably be: DBC or DCB (depending if the colleague’s situation was urgent).

    35. Too Many Tabs Open*

      A, D, C, B.

      Customer on the phone needs to be talked with first, because outside customers are what keep the money coming in. If it’s an involved question I may well say “It’s going to take me a couple hours to get that answer for you; is there a good time this afternoon for me to call you back?”, but they at least need to be acknowledged.

      Then documents from boss, because that was a direct boss request. If other things are really on fire and boss is easy to access, I may ask boss “hey, can I get this to you at $TIME, or is noon a hard deadline?”

      Then lunch break, because my blood sugar does not want to be messed with. It might be a shorter lunch break, or I might take it late, but I’m not skipping it.

      Coworker isn’t last because their problem is unimportant; it’s because someone else in the office might be able to help them with the printer problem, whereas I presumably can’t delegate the customer question or the boss’s docs. If coworker’s trying to print something that’s also due in 15 minutes (say, part of the same packet that I’m preparing boss’s docs for), then that might change my priority calculations; if I’m having no problems printing then I may ask coworker to email me the docs to be printed.

      If any of A/B/D takes more than a half hour, lunch becomes top priority, because blood sugar and staying functional during the afternoon.

    36. goddessoftransitory*

      Well, my entire job is taking calls, so A is first priority. Next would be B, in that I would tell coworker that I couldn’t help them (because all electronics die out of spite at my approach) but I would ask/tell the shift manager. Next is finishing the documents.

      Lunch is last, but still a priority, for two reasons. A) I am hungry and get really snarly when my blood sugar drops too low, and B) If I delay my lunch, the next person has to delay theirs, and the chain-ripple can really mess up breaks for the whole room.

    37. Sharon*

      When you ask the question, definitely lead with what you told us: “There is not necessarily a wrong answer to this, we want to hear how the candidates logic it out.” This will help the candidates give you the information you need.

      In general, my answer would go something like this:

      C. It’s not critical that I go to lunch at a specific time.
      D. I’d ask the coworker who needed help with the printer to wait or direct them to someone else who can help, unless the printing was extremely time sensitive.
      The relative importance of A. or D. really depends on the norms of the job and how critical each task is. For example, for D, are the bosses’ documents “due” because of an immovable legal deadline or because at 3pm he wants to talk about flight arrangements for his trip that’s not happening until next fall? Is the customer’s question likely to be something you’d have to research and call them back anyway?

    38. not nice, don't care*

      Coworker answers the phone while waiting for printer help. Boss’ documents are fetched. Follow up with phone caller if needed. Fix printer.

    39. Candy*

      If asked, I’d go with D/Boss’ documents as my first priority.

      A – A customer calls you with a question. I’d let this go to voicemail. Who calls anyone anymore? lol. But seriously, this depends on the job, but as an admin for a university department who doesn’t have paying customers calling us, nothing anyone would phone us for is so urgent that it can’t wait 30 minutes

      B – A coworker is at your desk asking for help with the printer. “I’m just finishing up something for Boss, try calling IT Support or turning it off/back on again and I’ll be there in few minutes”

      C – Your lunch break is in 15 minutes. This can wait, as an admin I don’t have a set break schedule like a shift/retail employee would so I can just go whenever I have free time

      D – Your boss asked you for some documents yesterday and they are due in 15 minutes. Honestly? These would have already been done if my boss asked for them yesterday but, if they aren’t, finishing them would definitely be my first priority

    40. JPalmer*

      If this question is just a priority order, it’s a bad question.

      If this is verbal, I think it’s about a lot of unincluded context. Are those documents important and for a presentation? How many people is the business getting, does it frequently have a high volume of individuals approaching. Does the office have other printers? Are there other front desk folks? Are people arriving for appointments?

      I think this is not a great question overall. It’s mostly about someone being eloquent and patient about their justifications to priorities.

      I think most good answers would involve politely asking one or more parties “Many things are happening simultaneous, how important is your issue”.

      Example: “Boss, can those documents be an hour late, I have front desk responsibilities and it’s my lunch break soon?”

      I feel you can get a gauge on their politeness in other ways and this wastes everyone’s time.

    41. OMG, Bees!*

      Probably the best answer I have heard for a question somewhat like this (specifically, it was for IT, and someone needs help for a large presentation while also a C-level exec needs help on their laptop, who takes priority?) was to see if you can find a coworker to help with one issue while you deal with the other(s).

      More specific to your question: A) see if someone can take the call for you, or failing that, answer the customer, then fire off an email to boss explaining the files will be ready after lunch;
      B) ask if coworker can check with IT or someone more helpful with the printer due to more urgent tasks;
      C) assuming lunch breaks are not rigid, take lunch after helping the customer and adjust break time accordingly (so if it was 12-1p, today it’s 12:30-1:30pm or however long the call took);
      D) depending on the importance of the files, find them first thing after lunch (or alternatively, find them real quick after customer but before lunch, then lunch is pushed back further from like 1pm-2pm, but don’t make a habit of this, trust me, it sucks)

    42. BikeWalkBarb*

      I give a gold star if their response is “I use a lot of organizational systems that work for me so D doesn’t come up if I know about the deadline.” I also wouldn’t mind having them ask “In your culture would you want me to prioritize external customers over internal?” before sequencing.

      We’ve used a similar set of questions (although without the lunch break–it was all work activities). We listened for judgment around position power (where could the most trouble come from you if you don’t prioritize their needs), understanding the nature of the request (I’m in a public agency and I think our examples including something like a contact from the governor’s office), and whether they’re reactive without applying their own understanding of prioritizing (I answer the phone because it’s ringing and that puts it at the front of the line no matter what the subject is or how long the caller wants to talk, vs letting it go to voice mail and then deciding its importance after I get those documents for my boss).

      We hired a rock-star admin who answered it exactly the way I wanted her to. Another top candidate gave different answers with a good rationale but her sequence didn’t reflect as much understanding of working in a public agency. The “right” answer will depend on the organization.

    43. LostCommenter*

      oh this is a fun thing. If it’s part of your job duties to help with the printer, ask them to log a ticket and you’ll get to it as soon as you can. If it’s not, apologise and tell your coworker you’re busy right now and they could either ask someone else or wait until you’ve gotten back from your break. The customer is on the phone, so that’s a can’t ignore. if it’s a quick answer to their question, do that, else tell them you’ll get back to them with the answer in an hour maximum. Next get to doing the documents for your boss, maybe giving him a quick call to say you might be a few minutes late but you were busy with something critical, and remind yourself never to leave something you’ve been told yesterday to do up to the last minute. You will probably take your break late and need to play catch up afterwards, but you’ve got this.

  7. Raresnail*

    Looking for career advice. I am a program manager at a big tech company looking to make a move. My job search has been fruitless so looking to pivot into IT PM or some other project management related field. Any success stories to help me feel like there is something out there? I’m planning to take the IPIL cert—any advice on that or on what makes people successful job candidates after getting the certification?

    1. PM by Day, Knitter by Night*

      I’m not sure what IPIL, but many? most? experienced PM positions in the US are looking for a PMP. Apart from them, I look for demonstrated ability to deliver quality projects on time and within budget as well as strong written communication skills.

      1. Raresnail*

        I meant to type ITIL cert. Already have my PMP so glad to hear that helps.

    3. ITPM*

      I started as an IT PM without any official IT education, just work experience and general aptitude. I took a job 5yrs ago with the understanding that I would get my PMP within a certain timeframe and get a raise when I did. They paid for the training and test, I studied on my own time. If you can get a PMP it will really help your job search, I presume other certs will as well but there seems to be more postings specifically requesting PMP.
      Even indicating you are studying for a cert and plan to get it might get you some consideration too, while you are in progress.
      Really play up your existing experience, ability to identify risks, manage schedules, manage costs, etc.

      1. Raresnail*

        Thanks for this. I have been talking up studying for ITIL certification. Already got my PMP and use a similar narrative to what you note.

    4. trilusion*

      If you’re looking into working at an IT company that uses agile methods like Scrum, it might be worth it for you to have a look at the Scrum Guide and then take a PSPO certificate (Professional Scrum Product Owner, for example at scrum dot org).
      Good luck!

  8. Bunny Girl*

    I have a very low stakes question regarding social media and coworkers. Or ex-coworkers.

    I am not much of a social media person and I keep everything very private. I have a Facebook but I only am friends with people that I’m actually friends with in real life – as in we speak or see each other on a somewhat regular basis. I never friend current coworkers.

    I recently left a job at a very close knit office. I was friendly with two people there and we continue to be friends, actual friends not work friends, after I left. They’ve both friended me on Facebook. This has led to other people in the office sending me friend requests. I’m not interested in friending them. I didn’t particularly like them when working with them and I don’t see us being friendly going forward.

    Apparently this is causing some awkward feelings. I feel weird about it, but I’m just not one of those people that wants to be “friends” with everyone I’ve ever met or worked with.
    Any insight?

    1. Wordnerd*

      Something I’ve learned from some strained family relationships is the ability to set up your posts to exclude sharing with a subset of your friends list. So you can (if you decide to do this) accept the friend requests from those folks but then add them to your list of “do not share with” and then they never see your posts anyway.
      Definitely not suggesting you must friend these folks, but it’s a way to give them what they need (and perhaps save your actual friends the awkwardness) but not share more than you want.

      2. Bunny Girl*

        I considered this but I already have a few members of my family who I have on a restricted list and honestly it’s annoying to me. There are some things I’d like to share and switching it on and off is vaguely irritating. But I appreciate the thought.

        1. kalli*

          That’s why I do it the other way – I have a small list of people who see everything, and if I want to share something more widely I add other lists or people on that post. So I’m not switching any restricted settings on or off, just nobody sees anything unless I add them to the ‘see everything’ list.

          If you’ve just been posting to ‘friends’ Facebook can even go back through and switch everything set to ‘Friends’ to a custom list, so even once you friend someone, if they’re not on that list your profile will be blank.

      3. Raresnail*

        Agree, you can also friend them but basically have them see little to no posts.

    2. You want stories, I got stories*

      You are fine to decline friend requests. I doubt they will notice.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      I would just ignore the friend requests. You didn’t like working with them, and you aren’t going to have a relationship with them in the future. People will eventually get over awkward feelings when they find something else to feel awkward about.

      1. Lady Danbury*

        This. That’s a them issue, not a you issue. And if it’s a big enough issue that it’s made things “awkward” in the office, that’s definitely a them issue because why do they not have better things to talk about???

    4. WellRed*

      If you don’t see them in real life, who’s making it awkward? I ocassionally don’t accept friend requests and don’t give it another thought and hope they don’t either (or even more likely, forget).

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I guess it’s just been slightly weird at the office, according to the one person I’m friends with. I’m also just hoping they forget. I plan on ignoring it. LoL

        1. French toast*

          What I don’t understand is why you care about the dynamics in an office in which you no longer work.

        2. TechWorker*

          Honestly this will die down VERY quickly so I wouldn’t give it a second thought. If someone is still fuming months later that you didn’t accept their fb friend request that’s on them :)

          (I have a somewhat arbitrary selection of work friends on fb because it’s ’people I was already friends with before becoming a manager’. I have just ignored friend requests from multiple people & no-one has ever called me on it!)

    5. Mouse*

      If it’s important enough to you to smooth this over, you could accept the friend requests and then unfriend them a month or so later. I doubt they’ll notice the unfriending!

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I’d prefer not to do that because I have a few things on my Facebook that I’d like to keep to myself.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        This actually made me laugh because I somehow hate LinkedIn more than Facebook.

    7. Rex Libris*

      You’re not responsible for managing other people’s awkward feelings. Just do you, and don’t feel weird about it.

    8. Beth*

      Just don’t accept the requests. If you need to soothe your conscience, go in turn to each profile and look at how many friends the person already has. There will probably be an insane number — hundreds, even thousands. You will NOT be missed in that crowd.

      If you’re asked in person about FB, feel free to say “Oh, I almost never even look at Facebook.” “Almost” can mean what you like.

      Facebook is fading over time anyway; in a few years, this will be history.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I’m kind of both dreading and looking forward to that day. LoL. As much as I dislike Facebook, it’s such an easy emailing/messaging site. That’s basically all I use it for.

      2. Le le lemon*

        Yes, this. You leave them in friendship limbo land by not accepting their request (and they then can’t do anything further on the platform to push it). Then if asked in person, say you don’t access FB much/haven’t seen it.

    9. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      I didn’t join FB until I retired over 10 years ago. I friended the people I liked at work, which included personal friends I had lunch or breaks with, or went out with occasionally after work. But I also included people I liked but didn’t know very well. Several of those became closer friends where we had frequent conversations on FB, and some i saw in real life – I even arranged to meet two who moved out of town when I went on vacations . A few (ugh, actually more than afew) of them have passed on, and I’m so glad I got to know them better because they enriched my life in many ways.

  9. Greyrocking ain't cutting it*

    I’m looking for help on how to personally detach and stop thinking about how my grand-boss and great grand-boss are sexist creeps who make passive aggressive comments towards me? My grand-boss in particular expects all women to flirt and be bubbly with him, and since I’m not, I’m the one who gets negged. I try to remain stoic and professional, and I do smile and laugh with people, but they keep doing it so I guess I’m not giving them the reaction they want. But of course, the comments are getting under my skin and I can’t stop thinking about why they feel the need to go out of their way to act like this. I would prefer if they just ignored me.

    The one plus is that I really like my immediate director I report to, and I want to keep working with him. It’s just 3 other meetings during the week with the other 2 that are horrid. I’ve only been here a year, and I want to stay for at least another year, for personal (like benefits and stuff) reasons.

    1. Tio*

      I wish I had advice, but I’m honestly not sure I could stand 3 meeting a week (!) with two complete a-holes. I’m a pretty excellent grey rocker, but even that would be testing my patience.

      Maybe try and treat them like characters in a TV series you’re watching that will eventually get their karma? I dunno. Sorry you have to deal with this.

    2. theletter*

      what I would do would be a dry laugh, and then say ‘Oh yes, it’s always so fun to meet with you, but I know your time is so important, so I’d like to finish up this work quickly so you can get on to your next thing.”

      The other thing I would do is look at the purpose and impact of the meetings – are they really valuable? If you already have a good relationship with your director, and they report up to these guys, maybe you don’t need to have additional meetings with them.

    3. Raresnail*

      Could you combine the meetings into 1? Could you get your director to help limiting the horrible and unprofessional interactions?

      1. Greyrocking ain't cutting it*

        My director and I have talked about combining the meetings, but when he approaches it with my grand-boss, he blows him off or offer non-feedback

    4. RagingADHD*

      The best recipe I know for dealing with passive aggression is surprise, mild confusion, and absolutely literal replies and follow up questions. Perhaps veering into concern that there is something wrong with them.

      Otherwise known as the “bless your heart” response.

      If you need an internal monologue to defuse your frustration, something along the lines of “Well, of course they did. That’s who they are.”

    5. Claire*

      I’m so sorry; I have been there! This is what I’ve done in these situations:
      1. Track everything. Write down every encounter, backhanded comment, write down times and dates and who else was there.

      Writing it down does not mean you ever need to do anything with it but a) it gives you a chance to process it and often the act of writing can help you let it go b) if you ever DO want to do something (maybe the situation escalates) you have record.

      2. Find a squad to help you deal with it. Maybe it’s other people you work with, maybe it’s a friend, maybe it’s just yelling about it to your dog when you get home. But find a way to talk to someone about it.

      3. Find a way to give back. I had a rule that for every event of harassment, I would earmark $5 to the local Women in Crisis Centre. At the end of a few months, I would make a donation. It helped me let it go and feel good that the sexist shit was helping other women.

      Good luck. I’m sorry.

    6. jasmine*

      I want to flag that the longer that you stay here, the more normalized this can be (even if you never think it’s okay, you can still get more desensitized than you were). Disrespect chips at you in ways that aren’t always conscious.

    7. Nesprin*

      I’d suggest making sure your boss can attend all your meetings with your higher ups. Anyone else who can run interference for you?

      I’m a huge fan of ignoring passive aggressiveness- take words at face value.

      It’s never a bad idea when faced with sexist assholes to document your interactions and talk to a lawyer about how to protect yourself- at worst if you do get fired you should be owed some money.

    8. Zona the Great*

      I like everyone’s advice here. My bad but fantasy advice is to practice your subtle, I-can’t-seem-to-control-it, stank face. It seems to really hurt men’s feelings who act like this.

      1. Greyrocking ain't cutting it*

        In meetings with grand-boss, my smiles are now non-teeth baring smiles lol.

    9. BikeWalkBarb*

      Do you have an HR department you can talk to about this? You may not be the only one (sounds as if you aren’t). Specific examples will be helpful. They may not do anything in the short run but you’re creating a record that may help you, may help someone else, and I’m guessing you’ll feel better for having taken action even if it’s out of their sight.

    10. Doc McCracken*

      A few fairly innocent quips will usually handle these types of men. Something along the lines of “Someone had their wheaties this morning!” followed by a quick topic change will help you here. Should you have to do this? No, but sometimes you just have to find a way to cope that personally costs you as little as possible.

  10. I'm just here for the cats!*

    Does anyone else have issues with their replies not showing up a lot?

    1. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      Alison sends comments with certain words into a moderation queue. Some threads get more heavily moderated than others. Give it a little while to show up, it usually will.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      Are they not showing up at all or just not immediately? Some comments go to moderation, if they have a link in them or use words that are frequently used in topics that Alison wants to moderate more closely or sometimes just because…

      I often have comments that don’t appear for hours if they go into moderation because I tend to comment from the train to work between half 7 and 8 in the morning my time so middle of the night in the US.

    3. Medium Sized Manager*

      I thought so, but they will show up eventually. The site never wants to fully load for me, so I always chalked it up to that.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Not really a “lot”, but sometimes and it is always an innocuous comment where I can’t even spot a word that might be on a list due to having some other context…

    5. Filosofickle*

      Within the past few months a handful of my replies and posts have simply never shown up — even after a day or two. In the past they’d surface later, presumably after moderation, but it’s new for me that comments would totally disappear.

  11. Sloanicota*

    People who are job searching: how’s the market in your field? I’m in nonprofit, and I’m seeing a good number of postings, salaries look a bit better than the last time I checked, but I get the sense it’s extremely competitive.

    1. Jan Levinson Gould*

      Fintech – it’s not great, particularly for remote jobs since there’s a lot of competition now due to RTO requirements.

        1. Jan Levinson Gould*

          Well, Jan is single and ready to mingle. I hear Stan Zbornak is available.

    2. DivergentStitches*

      Retirement plan/benefits/payroll analyst – I see a lot of positions but I haven’t been getting any interviews. I’m a former recruiter so I think my resume is on point. It’s a tough market.

    4. Name*

      Education, specifically public schools. The market is pretty tight unless you are in a student facing position and even then, it’s tighter than it used to be. Salaries are not the best going forward. ESSER funding ends in September so lots of cuts everywhere.

    5. JMR*

      Biotech, and it’s absolutely abysmal. For positions that are posted, the salaries have kept up with the market rate and cost of living. But opportunities are few and far between, and each open position has 100+ applicants, half of whom are PhDs applying for entry- or lower-level work.

      1. amoeba*

        Yup. Chemistry here, and same. I mean, 100+ is unfortunately normal at the big companies in our field, anyway, but now we’re getting into 1000+ territory. Basically every company in my field has a hiring freeze, and there’s still quite a few people from the last big round of layoffs last year that are still searching. It sucks.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      Tech writer in tech town. Hard to find anything that is actually in town and not people broadcasting.

    7. Mimmy*

      I’ve been looking for jobs in higher education disability / accessibility services, and it is slim pickings unless I do a nationwide search, which is impractical for me and my husband.

    8. pop*

      I just hired in the nonprofit field (two orgs, three positions) – we got a ton of applicants, especially for the intermediate level roles.

    9. Audiophile*

      I’m in communications/marketing. I see a lot of postings, many even including salary ranges (yay!), but I’m seeing cancellations and holds creep up, and I fear it’s only going to get worse as the summer and fall near.

      It’s tough as far as salaries go. I’ve been interviewing for roles and finding that the top ranges provided are exclusively for the West Coast, which is disheartening as an East Coaster.

    10. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

      Just finished my search last month so I feel recent enough to comment.

      For mid-level marketing roles, the prospects are good. Lots of openings, pretty good variety of industries and skill sets, though with a heavy lean on email marketing and paid search. I was out of work for two months and got a fair few interview requests before going with my final choice. I was also seeing lots of upper level marketing positions like directors, though I wasn’t looking for those.

    11. ForestHag*

      I’m a data analytics/business intelligence services manager – I’ve got experience in BI, analytics, integrations, etc. I’ve seen tons of postings, and applied to tons of postings, but so far I’ve only gotten 4 interviews. And when I say tons, I mean I’ve probably applied to close to 200 jobs in the past 18 months. I am trying to get out of higher education, though I have applied to a few other universities that are high profile. And the 4 interviews I did get – they were with those universities. :/ I have not gotten any interviews outside of higher ed, even for some jobs where I got a referral from a current employee at that company. I’m feeling really depressed, because what’s driving my job search is trying to leave a toxic environment where my team will probably be made redundant within this next year, so I’m feeling a time crunch. The salaries are reasonably good for what I’m looking for, but I think I’m facing either an enormous amount of competition or it’s just a bias against higher ed folks.

    12. Kay*

      Environmental education (think park ranger)- lots of seasonal stuff going into the summer months, but not a ton of options with decent pay and benefits other than room and board. Plus they are very location-dependent, but that’s typical for the field.

      1. bee*

        tech, mid-level engineering specifically: lots of postings, loooots of competition. a friend who referred me to a contract role said the recruiter got 900 applications.

    13. bee*

      tech, mid-level engineering specifically: lots of postings, loooots of competition. a friend who referred me to a contract role said the recruiter got 900 applications.

    14. Cat Executive Officer*

      Pretty bad (nonprofit). I’ve interviewed for 20+ jobs – multiple rounds and some of them final stage interviews – over the past year. No offers.

  12. basically functional*

    I have severe treatment resistant depression and anxiety, severe untreated sleep apnea (national CPAP shortage), and ADHD (usually medicated, but again, national shortage). I am exhausted and miserable all the time. Emotional self-regulation is a constant struggle and I often fail. I have intense emotional breakdowns over minor setbacks, both in my personal life and at work. I have a private office, so I can close the door and de-escalate without anyone noticing. I am high performing at work and do not have a reputation for emotional volatility (possibly the opposite because I tend to read as calm when I am trying to mask internal chaos).

    I just found out I will need to start sharing an office. I am dreading it because I don’t know if it’s possible to get through an entire work day without ever letting the mask slip. I don’t want to subject my coworker to my mental health issues. My position is hybrid, 3 days per week in the office and 2 at home. I could theoretically rearrange my telework days to reduce overlap with my coworker (although this would cause other problems), but we’re all required to be in the office on Mondays, so I can’t avoid that one day each week.

    “Private space for frequent emotional breakdowns” is obviously not an accommodation I can request. I could possibly request full telework as a medical accommodation, but in person work is highly valued here and I don’t want to damage my career. Honestly, I don’t want to request a medical accommodation at all if I can avoid it because I already deal with enough stigma as a fat person. If anyone else has lived with this sort of thing, how do you manage to keep the mask up 100% of the time for 8.5 hours straight? Or are there solutions I’m not seeing?

    Obligatory note that I don’t want medical advice. I have a good mental health care team and have tried pretty much every depression treatment out there (yes, I know about yoga).

    1. Tio*

      Do you think the personal office space is a no go because of actual physical limitations (like they’re out of office space) or is there another reason, like you’re worried that it would make it too obvious if just you had one and people would ask too many questions/complain because of it? Just wondering because it doesn’t seem that out of line as an accommodation request to me

      1. basically functional*

        Yeah, unfortunately we are out of space and everyone at my level has to double up. The only other option would be a cubicle in an open area.

        1. Tio*

          Hm, then that might be a non starter like you said. Is there any break room or quiet room or anything?

          Worst case, can you go to the bathroom and hang out there for a bit, or would that be noticeable to other people if they came in?

    2. Butt in Seat*

      Is your work culture such that you can completely disappear during the lunch hour (ideally to a place with some plants/nature) to get that break from people during the day? Do you have enough control over your time to be able to plan breaks at specific times — at 10am you go to the restroom that happens to be on the other side of the building, at 2pm you volunteer to take the mail somewhere, etc? Would these known release valves be any help to you?

      1. basically functional*

        I definitely could. Just not sure if defined break times would be enough since I tend to be triggered unpredictably. But trying it can’t hurt!

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I would try this, for sure. At least you’d know you have SOME private time in your day.

    3. T. Wanderer*

      I get that you don’t want to request a medical accommodation, but could you try having a less-intense discussion? This is something that will depend on your office, but it might be worth trying (especially with a good reputation):
      “I know the plan is for me to start sharing an office, but I wanted to ask if we can reconsider that. I have found that having a private space is critical for my ability to focus and perform, and even sharing with just one person is going to lead to a large drop in quality. I know this might be a big ask, but if there’s any way to keep a private office (even if it’s not THIS office), it’s going to make a big difference.”

      1. basically functional*

        Unfortunately, the coworker moving in with me already tried that argument. He was told we simply don’t have the space and the only other option would be a cubicle in an open area.

        1. Educator*

          If your coworker hates this too, maybe you could strategize together about how to make the space as workable as possible. Maybe a visual barrier, like a screen or a well-placed bookcase would give you enough privacy to take care of yourself if you can be fairly quiet. Or maybe you both agree to wear headphones for part of the day? Ask them what they need, communicate what you need.

    4. DivergentStitches*

      I feel ya on the sleep apnea! I went without a cpap machine for 3+ years due to receiving notices that my old machine was recalled and yet the in-home medical places in town didn’t have any. I wound up using my FSA card to buy one from a website, cost me about $400. If that’s in your budget, I do recommend it.

      1. basically functional*

        Thanks! I am actually supposed to get a CPAP tomorrow. I am cautiously optimistic but don’t want to pin all my hopes on it since I know they don’t work for everyone.

        2. Part time lab tech*

          I find mine uncomfortable and can’t go back to sleep with it on. However I noticed my cognitive level improved within a couple of days and so I persist even if I can only manage a few hours a night.
          As a side note, my GP was speaking to a respiratory doctor at some conference and she mentioned that she always says you might lose weight with CPAP to her patients. The respiratory guy said that no one ever loses weight just from CPAP. (I had told her previously that the link between weight and apnea was present, but with a very wide standard distribution.)

          1. Just a Shark*

            Sorry if this is just re-hashing stuff you already know, but I’m also a CPAP user who had no problem initially falling asleep with it, but found it SO difficult to go back to sleep after waking up. If you haven’t tried turning down the humidity and temperature of your tube, that helped me a lot (you might also try a heated tube if you haven’t, high humidity helps cut down on water building up in the the tube while you aren’t sleeping), but the main thing that finally got me going back to sleep with it with no issue was taking some tissue and drying out the nose piece/head gear before going back to sleep. A lot more moisture can build up there than you’d think!

            1. Part time lab tech*

              For me, the feel of having something on my face sends off enough minor alarm signals to prevent me going back to sleep completely after 4 or 5 hours. I could try wiping the nose piece though thanks. It does feel a little sweaty.
              I had to adjust my pressure lower in the beginning because I felt like my lungs were over inflating and that helped. My humidity is automatic and if anything is too dry.

    5. Ruby Soho*

      I’d see if you could get out of sharing an office. Does your manager know how you feel about sharing?
      An office with a window opened up across the hall from my (dimly lit) office, but if I took it, there was a chance I’d have to share, so I stayed put. I also have ADHD and I have shared an office in the past, but I’d really, really prefer not to share one if possible.
      After a few months two other offices in my area were vacated, and the window office was still empty. I got the ok to move in and my manager knows about me needing my own space, so I don’t anticipate seeing it become an issue again.

      1. basically functional*

        My manager knows and is apologetic, but unfortunately it’s a space issue and there’s nothing they can do.

        1. Moo*

          If all else fails is there an option to have a frank(ish) with your new office mate. Like there will be times that you both “need a few minutes” and maybe you could come to an understanding that the other will step out of the office for a bit. A code might be helpful like “is now a good time for me to go get a coffee?” It wouldn’t work for everyone, but there are times when I have been in a close space with a colleague and been able to come to that kind of arrangement. Probably depends highly on your office mate

    6. Kez*

      So other folks might have ideas about how to request accommodations or otherwise secure a private office space, but from someone who had those options curtailed and was hanging on through a period of intense discomfort masking full time hours in an open-office space, I can provide my “survival tips” that helped me hang in there til things could change.

      1. If you have headphones in, people are less confused by self-regulating body movements. I would use headphones and gently bop along to the music at my desk, and listening to music that acknowledged hard feelings while affirming that life goes on was often a helpful method of “speedrunning” through the Big Emotions into a more manageable mindset. Facial expressions that are (slightly) emotional are also considered less weird when you have headphones in, since it implies you’re reacting to a particularly intense guitar solo (or something) rather than, like, a typo in a report you just sent to a major stakeholder. This isn’t an all-the-time thing, but it helped me.
      2. Bathroom breaks can provide a useful decompression space where you can briefly de-mask and feel your feelings quietly in private. You don’t want to rely on this too much because it can create a sort of negative feedback loop for when you actually have to use the bathroom or a habit of totally bottling your emotions, but taking a slow walk to a restroom where you can run cool water over your hands or stim to your heart’s content for a few minutes does create the space to regulate in a way that works best for you, not for a neurotypical audience.
      3. If at least some of your worries are related to imposter syndrome or concerns about your professional “optics” I would recommend reading some of Captain Awkward’s advice pieces about going to work when depressed. One thing that I have to remind myself sometimes is that on really bad days, it is sometimes enough to just be present in my workspace, making even miniscule amounts of progress on something low-stress, and accepting that everyone has off days, so I shouldn’t beat myself up about mine looking different than some “ideal worker” I’ve built up in my head.
      4. A coworker cannot tell the difference between feverishly writing up your idea for a presentation/project and writing a quick note that expresses some of the Bad Feelings. If writing something out helps you stop running it over and over in your mind, it’ll sometimes be worth it to write your frustrations/fears down on a page in the middle of your legal pad, rip the page out and stick it in your backpack at the end of the day, and review it to address those feelings later, maybe even with a therapist if you can access one.
      5. Sometimes you can do all these things and it still doesn’t work. If so, extreme emotional dysregulation is a symptom of chronic mental illness and there is nothing wrong with telling your boss that you need to take the rest of the day off because you aren’t feeling well. Try other things before this, but know that you are never “trapped” and that you do have a right to process your emotions safely and without hurting anybody else.

      I really hope that you’re able to find some kind of long-term resolution and the accommodations that would help you thrive, but I know the stigma around mental health and the impossible position capitalism puts us in means we sometimes don’t have better options. Regardless, I send my best wishes from my own little dinghy on the Sea of Intense Emotion for a safe voyage and clear skies when you need the stars to light your path.

      2. Bruce*

        I’ll look up Captain Awkward, I manage OK but both my children have depressive episodes, one is really struggling at work right now.

    7. A Girl Named Fred*

      This is probably not the best suggestion, but here goes – I drink a lot of water so I have a plausible reason to go to the bathroom frequently. The women’s bathroom in my current workplace is a single occupancy room, and I’m usually one of only a few women onsite, so I can take a couple solid minutes of breathing or phone time or whatever to get myself calmed down and back out there. Multi-stalls don’t work quite as well, but are better than nothing. (For the record, I never “hang out” in there and if I ever hear the door jiggle I get out immediately.)

      Or, if this wouldn’t be out of sync with your office culture, can you find more reasons to get up and walk around? Maybe specifically go take the stairs up and down a few floors to get some time away from people? “Trying to be better about stretching my legs more!” is a perfectly understandable reason to be up and wandering away from people, if you think that’d fly in your office.

      I think other folks have offered good suggestions about trying to get out of sharing the office if possible, but those are my survival strategies for if that can’t happen. Good luck!

      1. basically functional*

        Thanks! Our only bathroom is multi-stall, but it is not particularly busy so I may be able to use it as a retreat at least sometimes. I can also take “exercise breaks” in the stairwells which are usually unoccupied.

        1. How We Laughed*

          I used bathrooms on different floors to get in some private stairwell times and when I wanted to feel more anonymous. I recommend it if your building is big enough for that!

        2. Dancing Otter*

          I hope you aren’t in one of those buildings where you can only get out of the stairwell at the ground floor. Unless you’re on a low floor, I suppose.

    8. Paint N Drip*

      I can only offer you solidarity, but you are seriously not alone!
      A new FT coworker started a couple months ago after being the sole FT worker in the office – he doesn’t ask much of me, he doesn’t change my life except being NEAR me just existing… I started crying every night on my way home from the sheer emotional overwhelm of it all. I still end up in overwhelm or rage multiple times per week just being so overstimulated, and I plan to move jobs by year end.

      1. basically functional*

        Thanks, I hope you find something better and your mental health improves!

    9. Office Plant Queen*

      I mean I think you can request a private space for frequent emotional breakdowns as a medical accomodation. Maybe work with your treatment team to brainstorm how to frame it better for a work context, though. E.g. “I have a medical condition that requires me to be able to take unscheduled, private breaks.” You don’t necessarily have to disclose your diagnoses to have an accomodation, and it likely isn’t something that your coworkers even need to know about, just your boss and HR.

      If it helps with how you think about it, the accomodation you’d be requesting could just as easily be the same for a number of physical conditions, too. Migraines that require someone to be able to shut the door and turn off the lights. A fainting disorder that requires someone to lay on the ground for a few minutes without being bothered. Any condition treated with an injected medication, which typically requires some removal of clothing to administer. The point is, it doesn’t matter what you’re doing privately behind a closed door – that’s the point of having privacy!

      1. basically functional*

        This is something to consider, thank you! I’ll see what my therapist thinks.

    10. Ginger Baker*

      Are there any conference rooms you can occasionally book to work out of? (Thinking not for the whole day but to give you structure alone-time breaks.) Possibly less feasible, could you shift your hours (maybe just on in-office-with-coworker days) to have less hours overlap? Those are my only suggestions that don’t overlap with the ones already given.

      2. Exme*

        Agree with this, later starting/ending hours is a common accommodation for medical sleep issues, you may be able to get that so the last few hours of the day are you working with fewer people around and with your office mate sometimes leaving for lunch shortly after you start. Obviously has other implications for how you organize your life, but maybe worth it!

    11. Llellayena*

      2 things to add to lists of ideas below: Does the office have a nursing/pumping room? As long as you don’t overlap with someone who needs it for pumping you may be able to use it for a quiet moment. Also, asking for full WFH might be too much, but asking for ONE more day (specifically monday) so that you can be completely opposite your office partner might be possible. State that’s it’s for a temporary medical issue (since CPAP and meds may improve the situation) and you might get it approved.

    12. Anonymous cat*

      You mentioned rearranging telework days being a problem. Do you mean with your coworker or with the office?

      If your coworker is also a 3/2 schedule, could you two alternate? Like both come in Monday, CW comes in Tuesday/Thursday, you come in Wednesday/Friday (or whatever arrangement works best).
      And you’d be framing it as you and CW giving each other space instead of asking for medical accommodation.

      (And hopefully some of the comments have ideas that would get you through Monday.)

      1. basically functional*

        The problem with rearranging telework days is that it is much more difficult for me to work two in-office days in a row than to space them out. Right now I am in the office MWF. My coworker is in the office MTF and he may not be able to change that because of caregiving responsibilities. So we would overlap on Mondays and Fridays unless I switched to WFH Fridays, but then Thursdays would be especially rough. Also I like coming in on Fridays because traffic is better and we can dress casually.

    13. Sally Ride*

      You sound exactly like me – unmedicated apnea and ADHD, stuck trying to appear normal for Mandatory Mondays – except I don’t have an office. Here’s how I manage:

      1. I don’t actually observe every Mandatory Monday – the other, less crowded days are easier for me. I make a point of showing face when I know more senior execs are visiting. (I have a VP title, so YMMV)

      2. I book a small conference room when I need alone time, and work from there for a bit. Sometimes on a different floor. This helps me self-regulate.

      3. I am mostly seen as calm and positive, but I did break down to a coworker last week – so I feel you and your struggle.

      4. I have raised the idea of canceling Mandatory Mondays for our floor due to overcrowding on Mondays.

    14. Enough*

      Re: apnea
      suggestions I made to a friend. 1. a under bed wedge to raise your head. 2. a dental appliance. For the dental appliance there are dentists/oral surgeons who make appliances to help keep the airway open. As long as you have a valid (sleep study) diagnosis insurance could cover the cost.

    15. Ain't nothing but a hound dog*

      When I was in a terrible job, with a horrible boss and also some really traumatic things going on in my personal life, I was also a grad student in a cramped shared office with 8 other people, not even cubicle walls.

      My strategy in this case was scouting out the best private crying places around my building, and having a plan. For smaller difficulties, I would take deep breaths in a closed bathroom stall and play around on my phone to distract myself. For times when I needed to sob/really let it out, I speed-walked my pre-planned routes to the private crying places (a rooftop of one building, an alleyway between neighboring buildings, and as a backup a rarely-used stairwell). Usually the movement helped with regulating my reactions as well, and crying for a minute or two privately really helped me keep it together the rest of the day.

      It’s a tough situation to be in; best of luck.

      1. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

        “scouting out the best private crying places” also describes my grad school experience :@

    16. mreasy*

      I wish I had a great answer. I’ve been in open offices my whole career, and haven’t had my treatment-resistant depression anywhere near in check until a couple years ago. I basically just wouldn’t leave my desk if the tears were silent, and would abscond quickly for the bathroom if necessary. If your office has phone rooms, they are also usually small and private and a little removed sound-wise, aka perfect for a meltdown. I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

      know you didn’t want medical advice and this isn’t that, but if you haven’t been recommended TMS yet, I will say – it is the only thing (after 20ish med combos, quitting booze/caffeine/sugar, going keto, becoming a serious runner, ketamine therapy) that has ever been effective. I only found out about it because I told my psych I wanted ECT and he said, let’s try this first.

      Good luck. I know everyone’s flavor of this is different but I have been there and it’s so hard.

      1. basically functional*

        Thanks! TMS is actually something I haven’t tried. I will look into it.

    17. Blue Pen*

      Is your office the only place where you feel comfortable de-esclating? Could you instead retreat to a single bathroom stall? Or does your building have any flex/huddle spaces you could step into on days when you’re sharing an office? Or would another coworker with a single office not in-use that day mind if you used it for privacy reasons?

    18. Janeway, Her Coffee In Hand*

      I have sensory problems due to being autistic which are aggrevated by stress. When I was working under a terrible boss and near meltdown half the time, I got permission to use the nursing room to calm down and regulate my sensory issues. If you have access to such a space at work, consider using it when you’re in really dire need. I’m sorry you’re going through this, wfh and privacy is such a boon to those of us dealing with mental health struggles.

    20. Distractinator*

      Maybe you can’t get out of sharing, but maybe there’s an optimal person to be sharing with. Is there anyone at work that you trust enough to be in the room with you? Not that you like this person as a friend and they’ll actively participate in your emotional regulation, but that you can imagine agreeing that they can professionally not notice that you do this? What does your “emotional regulation” look like? Silent/quiet screaming? Crying into your hands while sitting at your desk? Staring into space muttering things? Profanities and kicking the chair? Think about identifying someone who you think could take this in stride and not turn it into A Big Deal every time you need a moment, and request them as an officemate. I really like the idea of creating a visual barrier between your desks so you don’t have constant line of sight. But if you also need a sound barrier, find somebody who wears headphones all the time. I’d be pretty unapologetic – you’re not broken/wrong, and you’re not failing, your current stress management may not be perfect but it’s been working okay all this time, it’s just a feature of sharing an office with you, which you encourage them to ignore, and focus on the good work you do outside that space.

    21. RunToTheBathroom*

      This is when you make a sudden run for the bathroom or, if allowed, a walk outside.

      I’ve only ever had one job with a private office. Bathrooms are your friend.

    22. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      Many good suggestions in comments already. The only suggestion I have tha tI haven’t yet seen someone else mention is negotiating your officemate.
      If your officemate is the kind of coworker with whom you’d feel comfortable doing this, could you explain that you need some periods of privacy during the workday to decompress or do deep focus work (or however you want to gloss it that you think would go over best/ be least stigmatized; with a very few people it might even go okay to give some very vague mention of “being treated for a medical condition that leaves you unexpectedly tired at times” or something similar) and ask if officemate would they be willing to coordinate with you to minimize your impact on each other on days when you both have to be in the office all day. Hear what they have to say, and if they’re amenable, then you spend a bit of time negotiating what would work out for both of you. If you each have meetings or in-building work-errands maybe you could schedule them, and your lunch breaks, to maximize each person’s alone time in the shared office? Arrange furniture/ partitions / do not disturb sign/ a whitenoise machine to give a semblance of privacy inside the office (and cover for you to put your head down and cry quietly without being noticed) when you both have to be in there? Make an agreement to kindly ignore each other ?

      If the person you expect to be officemates with is not the kind of person that would work with, but you have another coworker who might be, could you ask first the other coworker and then management about swapping officemates?

      All my best wishes and sympathy.

    23. Part time lab tech*

      Maybe go for a brisk walk round the block? I got upset when someone I suspect actively dislikes me snapped over something that shouldn’t have been anything, and I no longer wanted to cry by the time I came back. I’ve been told that physical movement mops up some of the fight or flight response.

  13. T. Wanderer*

    Does anyone have any go-to corporate resources for DEI around PTO/leave?

    I had a discussion with my CEO/CFO about their bad PTO & leave policies, and the CEO said he had never considered that policy might disproportionately impact some groups more than others (the example was low PTO in one bucket with sick –> people with more medical needs or primary caregivers don’t actually get vacation time). They seemed receptive but it’s a new concept to them, so I’d love to send over some corporate-aimed explanations!

    2. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      While I don’t disagree that unlimited PTO, in general, is a trap, I am very much in favor of unlimited sick leave with an other-than-sick PTO bucket with carryover ability (but reasonable limits). There are ways to design this to ensure that the system isn’t abused (such as still requiring documented FMLA or other medical documentation if it is an extended leave, for example).

  14. Diamond*

    Do you recommend any other places online where they talk in a not-too-po-faced, interesting way about the world of work?

    I can recommend:

    If you can access BBC Radio 4 podcasts: The Bottom Line

    If you can access it, the archives of the Guardian’s column Dear Jeremy

    For comedy, Modern Toss’s cartoons about work (warning: irreverent! Strong language and deliberately rude humour)

    And I used to love listening to the podcast Safe for Work. Very sadly, it ended, and I can only find about 3 episodes of it online. It was wise and funny.

    1. Irish in Canada!*

      No recommendations, I’m afraid, but I’d forgotten about Dear Jeremy!

  15. Glazed Donut*

    Any insight on accepting a job you’re not excited about? Am I making a mistake?

    I’ve been job searching for a few months, being picky with my options. I’ve had quite a few interviews. For one role, I went through many rounds of interviews (whole-day onsite!) and when asked, shared my salary expectations in real numbers. The range I gave was lower than my last salary, but the job seemed exciting and met some of the things I wanted in a new role (creativity, autonomy). The org contacted me 2 weeks later to say they changed the role’s title and description (I said I was still interested), then they contacted my references, and offered it to me at 10k less than the bottom of my range.

    In the spirit of compromise, I suggested a title change (zero cost to them!) and asked if there was any room for a salary increase or sign-on bonus –something, anything to make this easier to agree to. The CEO and hiring manager agreed that I’m overqualified, but no, no change in title (that they JUST changed) and no change in salary. I did hear (through 2 people at this org) that a higher-level position–which I am qualified for–may be opening, as that individual is interviewing elsewhere. If that position opens, I would be a good candidate to move into it. It’s a lot of “if”s and chance, though.  
    I’ve accepted the role because I don’t have other offers right now, but I’m still keeping my options open, as this role wouldn’t begin for about two months. But the whole thing leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. If I had known it would be this title and this salary, I wouldn’t have applied in the first place – but I’m currently not working, and knowing I’ll have an income at a specific date offers breathing room for me to stop using my savings. I intend to keep looking and interviewing, even after this role starts, to try and get back to what I think is a good salary for myself. 

    Am I a dumdum? I feel like I’m selling myself short, or disappointing myself somehow, but this isn’t really a job I’m excited about. I was thinking when I finally got a job and accepted, I’d be ready to share with friends and family, but it’s hard to do that when I’m kind of blah about the whole thing. 

    1. MsM*

      I think you’re right to keep looking. This feels like a bait-and-switch, and it doesn’t make me optimistic that even if the higher-level job does come open, they won’t pull something with that, too.

    2. Spacewoman Spiff*

      I think you’re taking the right approach to accept and keep looking. If you find something quickly and end up leaving after just a few months it’ll probably burn your bridge to this company but, honestly, doesn’t really sound like that’ll matter…

      1. A Significant Tree*

        I agree – accepting is smart as it’s your fallback plan, but use the time to keep looking for something better. Like you say, if nothing else works out before the new job starts in two months, that higher-level position might be opening about that time. That might be tricky to navigate but you’ve already had the feedback that the CEO and HM think you’re overqualified for the lower position, so that’s definitely in your favor.

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think the fact that you are currently not working shades this a lot more — I would have said yes you’re selling yourself short based on the earlier part of your comment, but I understand wanting to say yes to anything when you don’t have a steady income coming in. I don’t think you should lowball yourself next time they ask for your salary expectations, though.

      In terms of this actual job, can you focus on the creativity and autonomy aspects that drew you to the role in the first place? The other parts may feel blah but if you can make the most out of the bits that interested in you, it could make it more bearable until you find something else.

    4. just here for the scripts*

      If you can stay at your current job, and live with your current salary, I would pass on this position—too many red flags and not enough $$—and continue to look elsewhere. When passing on the position I would say something like, “the change in title and salary are why I cannot take the job. Please let me know if the other position(s) open up—I’d be very interested in them.

      (Note: I’ve accepted jobs that were not as advertised and then you have to take the first option that comes up. This doesn’t sound like your position now—but it could be if you accept the role now).

      If however you need a job, take it. And just plan on continuing the job hunt.

    5. Raresnail*

      Job change is a huge red flag that they do not know what the scope of work will be. This on top of your reticence suggests you should pass. Trust your instincts!

    6. Blue Pen*

      100% keep looking! I know you’ve accepted the job already, but in my experience, I tend to have Big Emotional Feelings about jobs I’m on the fence about. Last year, I was seconds away from being offered a job that—on paper—would’ve been the big achievement, next step in my career, setting me up for my future, etc., but something just felt seriously off. I wasn’t excited about it, it felt like I was going through the motions more than actively engaging with a potential job opportunity, and I felt a ton of pressure—self-imposed—that I would never get an opportunity like this again. When I sat back and was like, “dude, give yourself permission to not want this job,” all the pressure melted away and I held on a little longer for something that I really did want, which is where I am now. It’s not as senior and doesn’t pay as much, but it has enormous growth opportunities, higher visibility, and a work environment that’s much more suitable to my needs.

      You’ll get there! Listen to your gut. Unless you’re starving and need to keep a roof over your head, I always say hold out of until you’ve got the one in your hands you’re EXCITED to say yes to.

    7. MissGirl*

      I took a job that I wasn’t excited about and had a $10k drop in salary. Like you I had no job. I was there six weeks when a company I used to consult for came in with a great title and $40k jump in pay. Of course I took it, but knew I’d burned my bridge at the first company. If I’d known that offer was going to come, I’d have turned down the first and gone to Europe for two weeks ;) The hard thing is we just don’t know and the market is tough. So the best you can with the data you have right now.

      PS A month after I started the last job, my AC, water heater, and heater went out costing $9k. You never know what’s in your future, good and bad.

    8. Elle Woods*

      Not a dumdum at all. I totally understand accepting a position you’re not super thrilled about and think it’s OK to accept this role but continue looking. If the higher position does open up, perhaps you can apply for that when the time comes? Otherwise, maybe this position is just a bridge job to get you to your next one.

    9. Employed Minion*

      I did went through this a few months ago -unemployed, initially excited, job title/role change, & accepted the job anyway because I needed income- it has been HORRIBLE for a variety of reasons. I really don’t recommend starting the job if you can find something else, and/or just keep looking. Maybe you’ll decide to stay if you start the job but definitely keep your options open

  16. Conference Anon*

    What is your experience with conferences and educational assistance programs?

    I work for a company that contracts teams out to government agencies. My client agency is instructing me to attend a conference in a few months. My employer has booked my hotel and registered me for the conference. After incurring these expenses, they informed me this falls under the education assistance program, and I have to sign a (very vague!) contract agreeing to pay my employer back in full if I resign within two years. This debt could exceed $3k.

    I understand applying this policy to employees seeking professional certification, degrees, or even just attending optional conferences, but at no point has this conference been presented to me as optional. My coworkers who have attended in past years haven’t had to sign this. I am pushing back and may refuse to attend if they won’t budge, but before I really dig my feet in, am I being unreasonable? Are mandatory conferences typically subject to these policies? I’ve attended conferences for previous employers and this has never come up with them.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I know of one case where this kind of thing applies, but it’s about much more in-depth training
      – months of intensive education with an ERP suite like SAP. And it’s usually much more that your employer voluntold you for this up-front, not that the government customer required it.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I’m confused as to why the client agency isn’t the one footing the bill and it’s instead your employer paying. I think you should definitely push back, but push it off on to the client — if they require the conference, they pay ,or if the client terminates the contract with your employer within 2 years, they pay back the money.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      This is ridiculous. As Alison has said, knowing that someone might leave after you’ve spent money for them to attend a conference or something is a potential cost of doing business that companies have to accept. But then again, I’m not sure how this works with government agencies and contractors.

      1. Conference Anon*

        I have the employee handbook now, and even reading that it’s not clearly stated they include conferences in this policy. The closest reference is “technical training,” which… I guess? I did at least get clarification that I won’t be in the hook to reimburse them for travel expenses, but still, a two year commitment for a CONFERENCE? Wild.

    4. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I feel like you shouldn’t be required to pay back something that is a work requirement. You’re not taking a course on the side for your own personal PD that they’re reimbursing you for because they offer this as a benefit, you’re going to a work conference because your client instructed you to. That’s work, not education.

    5. Two Dog Night*

      You’re not being unreasonable. If I were you I’d be pushing back hard.

    6. Beth*

      Wait, whut? This is BS.

      I’d hand back the vague contract unsigned, and suggest that they get the client agency to sign it, since they’re the ones requiring attendence. I might even say, “I asked Joe Bananasuit if he had to sign this when he went last year, and he said no, so there doesn’t seem to be any precedent.”

    7. Rex Libris*

      I’m in a profession where I’m at conferences fairly regularly, and have never heard of this. I’ve seen places who have this sort of rider if they’re offering scholarship money towards a degree in your field or something like that, but for a conference it seems crazy to me.

  17. Jessica-Ashley*

    A few months ago I posted in the open thread (comment below) how the heads of my department (about 20 people), Jack and Jill, had implemented a “fun-time” segment that’s about 15 minutes long on top of an hour-long department meeting. They had been doing something different each week, and each week it was pretty much the same few people getting into it. Well, my update is that this “fun-time” has gotten so much worse and uncomfortable.

    Some of the most recent “fun-time” themes: Guess who’s baby picture this is, put a picture of something you did over the weekend and we’ll guess who did what, put a picture of a show you are watching and we’ll guess. And one from last week: Out of 2 options, either put up a picture of a celebrity you resemble or put up a picture of a celebrity you have a crush on, AND WE’LL GUESS!!! I can’t deal with this anymore. This is nuts, right? It’s such a lack of boundaries on a work team. I don’t care about baby pictures of my coworkers or knowing about their crushes, and I’m uncomfortable knowing about the celebrity crushes my bosses have. With the celebrity crushes one, Jill was like, “oh this is so much fun! We’ll have to do this with a larger group!” I’m also weirded out talking about peoples’ looks on a work call.

    We have to do this weird personal “fun-time” with each other, and then get into going through a presentation where we all present. It’s so weird and I hate it. It makes me purposely want to schedule appointments and days off during this meeting, which I don’t want to do. I don’t have the standing to complain about this, and I doubt Jack and Jill would listen if someone of a higher rank than me brought it up. I think they both have boundary issues and it’s apparent with this forced fun-time. Or am I crazy? How many of my coworkers hate this or are they sipping the kool-aid?

    Does anyone have advice on making it through this during the meetings?

    1. Jessica-Ashley*

      Previous comment –
      We’ve had a lot of growth in my department the past 6-ish months with several people joining. Currently there are about 9 teams, each performing distinct functions and operating at various levels with all teams funneling into Jack or Jill, both Sr. Director levels. The entire department has a weekly meeting that is an hour long where everyone provides updates for each team. This meeting is already exhausting because each team talks about granular information that’s only relevant to their specific teams, the other 98% of the meeting is not useful information for everyone and I doubt most people are paying full attention.

      Jack and Jill have recently started a “fun-time” segment at the beginning of each meeting to boost morale as a team. This takes about 15-20 minutes, which already pushes this hour long meeting back another 10-15 minutes. Each week is different, so one week it’s trivia, another it’s a “friendly” debate about something related to pop culture, another week it’s a 2-minute competitive game (and making everyone post scores), etc. What ends up happening is that the same few people win the trivia questions or try to talk, and I doubt most of my coworkers truly enjoy this. Because of this, we all end up being on this call, cameras on, for more than an hour. I appreciate Jack and Jill are trying to make us bond as a team, as we’re all spread out over the country, but I find it a waste of time and something about it rubs me the wrong way that I can’t really articulate. It almost feels like “we are a family here” and they are trying to force this comradery while simultaneously fostering a competitive atmosphere, although I don’t think it’s intentional. Work-wise this doesn’t impact me at all and I can secretly look at other stuff while it’s happening.

      What is your take on this “fun-time” before a meeting?

    2. Tio*

      The baby pictures one is bad, but if they are going to force fun time, the pictures of the weekend activities, TV shows, or resembled celebrities don’t seem horrible to me. I think these things are kind of all or nothing – you hate it or you don’t mind it. You could talk to your coworkers and see if they mind it; if a bunch do, maybe you can talk to your boss together. If a bunch don’t, this might a grin and bear it kind of situation

      1. MsM*

        I’d say the reverse – we did a baby picture activity at one of my old workplaces (which, to be fair, had enough boundary issues that maybe the invasiveness of this particular icebreaker just isn’t registering with me) and it was fine, but I really don’t want to know about my coworkers’ celebrity fantasies. If simply saying “I’m not participating in this” really isn’t an option for whatever reason, I’d be tempted to bring in a pic of a xenomorph or Elmer Fudd or something else ridiculous.

        1. Caramel & Cheddar*

          The baby pictures one is more that it can open up lots of really personal details that staff may not wish to disclose in a meeting or at all. It seems fun on its face until you get a coworker who has no childhood photos because their house burned down or they were in and out of foster homes or they have photos but don’t want to share them because they have a different gender presentation now and would rather not out themselves to colleagues under the guise of “fun time”, etc.

          1. Tio*

            This

            The crushes one is also toeing a line, although easier to lie about. But it’s uncomfortable to force someone to lie about being attracted to Brad if they’re really into Angelina or vice versa because they don’t want to out themselves. I don’t think the resemblance one would hurt though, unless people were being deliberately mean (Which would hopefully not get past the managers)

            1. Glomarization, Esq.*

              Well, I’m a 100% hetero cis lady, I would never date and have never dated a woman, and my celebrity crush is Jamie Lee Curtis. The thing about celebrity crushes is that they are pretend.

            2. Nancy*

              A lot of people have celebrity crushes on people they wouldn’t actually date if they had the chance. Most people understand it’s not real and would not assume that a woman is outing herself because she chooses Angelina over Brad.

              And it’s really not that hard to lie.

          2. Lady Danbury*

            Don’t forget racial minorities. Not so much “fun” when you’re obviously the only Black or Asian baby in the group.

        2. Standard Human*

          Mmm, when my last office did this I wasn’t speaking to my parents and didn’t have access to baby photos.

          “Hiiii I know I’ve severely reduced contact due to your addiction issues but I was wondering if you had any baby photos of me? It’s for an icebreaker at work. No, I changed jobs. No, I moved cities. Yeah, I didn’t tell you about either life change. No, I won’t tell you which job or which city. Anyway. Baby photos?”

          1. Guacamole Bob*

            I have a perfectly reasonable relationship with my parents but would still not be excited about having to ask them to find and scan a baby photo of me (do they have a scanner? I have no idea, honestly), or spend time digging through folders on an old laptop and maybe some boxes of memorabilia trying to see if I have one somewhere already. I absolutely don’t have one at my fingertips, and not for any reason that would make this exercise emotionally difficult!

      2. Caramel & Cheddar*

        Seconded. I would hate this too, but it’s not inherently objectionable from a content perspective (though I agree the baby pictures one is never good). I think the issue is more frequency and duration than what the “fun time” activities actually are. If you’re someone who hates it, you just have to find a way to suck it up and distract yourself because these people do not sound like they are amenable to change.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      The frequent tenor of this particular comments section notwithstanding, I think you may be an outlier. I can’t honestly agree that it’s particularly boundary-crossing or weird or “nuts” for a group of co-workers to joke around about their celebrity crushes. It’s just not that serious. I think you’d benefit from working on changing your perspective on these activities.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        I tend to agree. Would I LOVE this? No. Would this be a light way to connect socially at work? Yes, and I would engage with it.
        However I will say I have no personal drama about my childhood, sexuality, looks, etc. that might make these exercises uncomfortable and I know that is NOT something we can guarantee about the workforce as a whole.

      2. Clementine*

        Same. I do think it’s a little weird, and I’d probably roll my eyes for a moment but then not think about it again. It just doesn’t rise to really any level of emotion from me.

      3. Mary*

        Agreed. You can just make something up. Lie. Post your favorite actor. Post someone from your favorite movie.

        My celebrity crush is Brendan Fraser, oh no people find out that I liked The Mummy… That’s not personal, that’s just a fact.

          1. Mary*

            I rewatched it in theaters for the 25th anniversary. Still holds up tbh.

            And honestly? Both this movie and LoTR are my go to “borrow a celebrity crush” movies.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              I mean, Mummy is wall to wall eye candy–whatever your taste, there is a Very Sexy Person there to accomodate!

              1. Mary*

                Precisely! Here, I’ll even give people some scripts they can use if they ever are asked this question but don’t want to answer seriously. (…And I’m only half-joking.)

                You want to leave it neutral? Like OMG, Bees! below said; “oh I think I had a celebrity crush on everyone in the Mummy movies. honestly.”

                Want people to think you only are into guys?

                * Oh yeah, I had the biggest crush on Rick O’Connell, I’m glad things are looking up for Brendan Fraser

                * I had the biggest crush on Imhotep, he deserved better.

                * I had the biggest crush on Jonathon, he made me laugh.

                * I had the biggest crush on Ardeth, I loved those tattoos.

                * I was pretty young when The Mummy Returns came out, and Alex was my age so….

                If you want people to think you’re only into women:

                * I had the biggest crush on Evie. What can I say, I liked the librarian look.

                * I had the biggest crush on Evie. When they swapped actresses in the third movie, it just wasn’t the same.

                * I had the biggest crush on Anck-sun-Namun. I know she didn’t have the biggest role in the first movie, but she made it count & I loved that they brought her actress back in the second.

                And even if you’re lying? I promise, no one actually cares.

                (And if anyone asks you about the movie, just say that you haven’t seen it in a while, sorry!)

                1. BikeWalkBarb*

                  Swapping out the actress in the third movie was definitely wrong.

                  If the topic of librarians comes up it’s always a chance to hiccup out, “I. Am. A . LIBRARIAN.”

        2. OMG, Bees!*

          A good one. My celebrity crush is the entire cast of The Mummy, yes all of them

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      I don’t ever crush on celebrities, and I’m old and fat and wear braids, so I also don’t resemble any either. I would go with ironic: for the celebrity, choose someone not well known; for the baby picture, get a picture of a puppy; for a weekend activity, a snap of someone watching tv.

      It won’t help with knowing more about people you don’t want to know more about, but you also won’t be telling them things about you that you didn’t care to disclose. Nor will you have to take a lot of extra time. And eventually, you’ll take a bit of the fun out of it: “Oh, all these pictures are of kitchens, except for one campfire. I know that one is Jessica-Ashley, because her pictures never match!”

      1. Maggie*

        There are old fat celebrities! lol but that aside, yeah just make something up! Post a puppy and say “this is what’s in my soul” or just post a celebrity you think is funny or whatever.

    5. An outlier*

      If 98% of the meeting is not useful to you and you also don’t like the “fun games,” can you log in, camera off & do something else? Or can you do something else if the camera must remain on? Something on your computer that doesn’t create a lot of movement? I commiserate because I also don’t like these kinds of “fun games” but I’m so conscious of being perceived as negative (or an outlier).

    6. Glazed Donut*

      I’m not sure I’d be excited to participate in this, but it’s pretty low-stakes in terms of attempts at bonding and ice breakers.

      I’ve worked in places with the ‘guess the baby picture’ and the most awkward it got was when the one POC baby picture was shown – clearly everyone knew who that was! Later, we were all asked to put pictures of ourselves from childhood by our doors. One person (who seems like you, Jessica-Ashley, in her unwillingness to participate) googled “youth soccer team 1990” and put that picture up. It was NOT her but no one really cared or knew until much much later.

      If it just takes a minute to submit something, don’t dwell on it too much, and just do what you need to do to check it off and move on. I agree than 20 min in a meeting would be annoying. Maybe try to suggest something yourself that you’d enjoy more?

    7. Zona the Great*

      I don’t care what the activity is, I just want to move on and get back to work.

    8. Office Plant Queen*

      I would absolutely hate the celebrity crushes thing. I’m ace (well, gray-ace) so I’ve never had a celebrity crush in my life. And I’m not up for fielding questions about my sexuality at work. If I talked about it and didn’t just uncomfortably evade the question, the responses would be either 1) people who are already in are familiar with the queer community, including asexuality, and they’re chill about it, 2) people who aren’t familiar and ask weird boundary crossing-questions or say something rude, and 3) people who aren’t familiar but have enough tact, but are privately now wondering about my sex life with my husband.

      1. Nancy*

        It’s really not that deep and plenty of people have crushes on someone that is not sexual.

        2. Jessica-Ashley*

          While I see this side of it and this can be fun, I think that having the heads of a department talking about their crushes is a bit icky. It infers the type of people they find attractive and it’s weird if they list someone who looks similar to someone they manage. This could easily go downhill fast or tip-toe the line.

          1. HR Friend*

            Why is it icky? HODs are human. You work with them, so I’m assuming you have some sort of relationship. I think you’re reading way too much into what a celebrity crush is. It’s harmless information, and as the commenter above points out, it’s often completely non-sexual. Hell, my celeb crush is Edie Falco and I’m a straight woman.

          2. Awkwardness*

            But why take this serious?
            Celebrity crush – Dalai Lama or Elvis (bonus point: too old and too dead to resemble someone in your department)
            Baby picture – a celebrity you seemingly looked similar to
            Weekend activity – picture of food
            Etc.

            OP, just be the most basic person you can imagine. This will take a lot less energy then grumbling every week about the exercise and getting in a bad mood, as your colleagues seem to like it.
            Nobody is asking for lengthy explanations, you are not put on the spot, but can prepare. There are a lot worse icebreakers out there.

      2. Mary*

        It doesn’t have to be a literal crush. Do you have a favorite movie? That character is now your “crush”. It’s really not that deep, I promise.

      3. Maggie*

        You don’t actually have to explain your sexuality or physical relationship with your husband to participate in this. Just pick a random celebrity you like “this person is my crush bc they’re so funny and I love a good sense of humor!”

      4. Dell*

        I’m ace and have a few different celebrity crushes. There is absolutely no correlation between celebrity crushes and people wondering about your sexuality or your sex life with your husband. Why would you even think that?

    9. Yay! I’m a llama again!*

      Is this at the beginning or the end? Is there the chance to drop in late or off early? I know several commentators are saying essentially, it’s not that much, suck it up, but EVERY meeting? When you have things to be getting in with? I can see why the ‘forced fun’ is starting to grate, and you won’t be the only person.

        1. Yay! I’m a llama again!*

          I wish you dodgy internet signal JUST as the forced fun starts… every time.

    10. Maggie*

      It sounds genuinely fun/funny to me provided your co workers are generally respectful people who keep it light

      1. Mary*

        Yeah, honestly this comment thread is baffling me. It’s 15 minutes once a week. 0.625% of a normal 40 hour work week.

        Honestly, sometimes it feels like AAM people just hate people, and hate the idea of acknowledging that their coworkers are fellow humans instead of work drones.

        1. Maggie*

          We do a lot of corny activities at my work, so my tolerance is high. People seem to think this needs to involve an honest documentation of the inner process that led them to have this “crush”! It doesn’t! We had a co worker who always just brought a picture of Macaulay culkin instead of a baby photo because people always told him he looked like him. Idk why he doesn’t have a baby photo and no one ever asked. White lies are ok! If you have to share your favorite breakfast food and you hate breakfast you actually can just say “bagels” and move on.

          1. Mary*

            That’s hilarious, re: MC.

            That being said, another point – in my experience, when someone tends to behave a specific way, any deviations are taken more seriously because that’s not how someone usually behaves.

            Or to put it another way, if Jane tends to enjoy/play the ice breaker games but then mentions that the baby photo one might be fraught, there’s a chance people will take her opinion more seriously because it’s a deviation from the norm. If Jane hates ice breakers and constantly refuses to participate in any, there’s a chance that people will just roll their eyes and go, “that’s just Jane, she hates all of these,” and it will be treated like the boy-who-cried-wolf.

        2. No Forced Fun Please*

          I enjoy interacting with my coworkers and hate forced fun stuff like this. Yes it starts as only 15 min but usually ends up being longer and if I’m stuck in meetings they need to be productive and not wasting time. I’m always polite to coworkers but don’t really care to know about most of their personal lives, I have friends outside work for that.

        3. Prorata*

          Yes, but……couple this 0.625% with a few more 0.625% “fun and games”, and you start getting into real “real time”, time we could be using to, oh, actually do what we are hired to do, which typically isn’t to go on about celebrity crushes, baby pictures, or what one did last weekend.

          There are plenty of us who just want to come to work, do our jobs, and go home at a reasonable hour; we don’t really want to spend time on “fun and games” which interferes with that basic idea.

          You want to regale others with your weekend exploits, feel free, but please, let those of us who choose to focus on work do so.

          p.s. Don’t get me started on team-building events.

          1. Mary*

            > “Honestly, sometimes it feels like AAM people just hate people, and hate the idea of acknowledging that their coworkers are fellow humans instead of work drones.”

            1. Prorata*

              See Rex Libris remarks below – very well said.

              It’s not hating people.

              It’s too many years of eye-rolls over the idea one finds quiet time with a book and a good cup of tea more enjoyable over what much of the world considers “fun”.

              It’s too many instances of being scoffed at for not following Musician X, Film Star Y, or Sports Team Z, because you just don’t put much weight into popular culture. (You want to follow X, Y, or Z, have fun!! But kindly refrain from insulting us for not following them)

              It’s too many times of being told we are too serious, or are making the rest of the team look bad because we take what we do seriously.

              And quite frankly, it’s a desire to just not be particularly close to coworkers; to maintain some semblance of a boundary between work and home.

              Last time I checked, I get to choose my friends. Short of changing jobs, I don’t get to choose my coworkers – I do have to work with them, and I do maintain a civil attitude, but I have no interest in my coworkers being my friends.

              1. Mary*

                Okay, but like you do realize that there’s a difference between being friends with your coworkers and being friendly with your coworkers. Especially once a week for 15-20 minutes in a designated “fun having” time that you can plan ahead for?

                1. Prorata*

                  See “This Daydreamer” below….again, well said.

                  And I put much more value on being available for questions, assisting with problems, and standing ready to lend an ear from time to time than “Summer Camp, Still in Middle School” B.S.

            2. This Daydreamer*

              I love my coworkers, but this stuff straight from “The Book of Meeting Fun, Ice Breakers, and Other Ways to Extend a Meeting and Look Like You’re a Cool Boss” every freaking week would drive me up the wall. There used to be one employee who tried to start up a game for each of our meetings and it was a massive flop. It lasted two gatherings, and we were only meeting once a quarter.

        4. Rex Libris*

          Personally, what I hate isn’t people, but “forced fun” that’s obviously or functionally mandatory. (And celebrity crushes? Is the management all 12 years old?)

          This is obviously problematic for some people (particularly the baby picture one) and I don’t think the correct answer is for them to suck it up, pick something harmless, and (implied) pretend to be “normal”. They shouldn’t have to worry about how not to out themselves, or being reminded of some past trauma, for the sake of a silly game.

          I think the issue is that these things should never be pressured or mandatory, or structured in a way where it’s going to other somebody or make them stand out if they choose not to participate.

        5. Guacamole Bob*

          It’s the guessing piece of it that takes it from fun and light to awkward and problematic for me. “Drop a picture in the chat of somewhere you’d like to go on vacation” and then light banter about different choices is a perfectly reasonable work icebreaker. Adding in the guessing about who thinks they look like which celebrity or watches which TV show and there’s so much more room for second guessing yourself about what you post and what you think people will think it says about you and how you think your colleagues perceive you and people making guesses for awkward reasons.

          I’d accept that this 15 minutes is going to be spent on this stuff but push back on the “and we all guess!” aspect if I had the capital to do so.

      2. Jessica-Ashley*

        Most of my coworkers are, Jack has made some weird comments around some of the answers. I think that is where most of my uncomfort is coming from, based on the weird personal comments from Jack. Jack manages (directly and indirectly) more than half of us. The fun-time is more tolerable when he’s not there.

        1. Antigone Funn*

          Ugh, yikes. If the manager is taking these supposedly fun games too seriously, then what I would do is either 1) become the most basic person on earth with the most mainstream possible taste, or 2) play to win. Come up with whatever answers you think Jack will like best. Find some adorable baby pictures and beautiful vacation vistas. They don’t have to be yours. If you’ve seen him eat anything, your favorite food is that. Does he love dogs? You love your (nonexistent, maybe sadly dead?) dog! Either way, for the duration of the icebreakers, you’re playing a fictional character who happens to share your name.

          I did that once in school, for a teacher who wanted us to write about our families. Not everybody has a family history they want to share with the whole class, so I made one up. I made up some cute stories about my nonexistent siblings/pets and alive dad. Luckily it was only for a few weeks, so my ridiculous lies never caught up to me!

    11. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      I understand the sentiment behind the games. It’s so hard to come up with engaging things to break the ice and get people feeling like more than just robotic coworkers. Can you recommend more mundane, less personal activities? Here are some ideas:
      “Famous person you admire”
      “Best dad joke you’ve heard recently”
      Sharing a safety tip or an Outlook hack

      1. Rex Libris*

        The most successful (for me anyway) I’ve seen were some Zoom meetings where they started with just 10 or 15 minutes of casual “Anybody do anything interesting this weekend?” type chat over tea/coffee. The talkers could talk, the oversharers could overshare, and everybody else could just finish their coffee, without being pressured to contribute something.

      2. Antigone Funn*

        Share a song you like
        What’s a cool place you’ve been to recently/want to go to?
        What’s on your reading list/what TV shows or movies have you seen lately?
        Pick an object on your desk and tell us about it
        What are your favorite outdoor activities? Favorite indoor/rainy day activities?
        Does anybody like board games or trivia? (If so, maybe trivia questions would be a fun opener too.)
        How’s your sports team doing? Did you see that ludicrous display last night?

    12. Janeric*

      I do have a strategy that my husband calls “the covert agent strategy”. My old job had high school mean girl vibes. Whenever we got an icebreaker question , my goal is to come up with the most anodyne response possible. The one that won’t even excite a moment of comment. It will be the opposite of memorable.

    13. Owlette*

      If they ask for feedback, I’d say that the time consuming nature of the meeting makes it less appealing to come. Otherwise lots of internal eye rolls. The last big team meeting I attend the ‘bonding’ general knowledge quiz ran for 35min. And I felt exactly 0% extra bonding with my coworkers. But I have no leverage and just avoid the meeting

    14. BikeWalkBarb*

      A different perspective on something I label differently that’s run differently, but close enough that it might give you ideas if you wanted to volunteer to LEAD “fun time”–

      I lead a team of 10 people, soon to be 12, who live in four different cities. Our staff meetings are 100% virtual, with occasional all-day in-person retreats.

      The first thing on our staff meeting agendas is called Connection Before Content. (Oh, hi, any of my team who are reading this, you’ll recognize us!)

      It doesn’t involve people digging up possibly unavailable baby pictures and so far we haven’t had any celebrity questions. It does have an actual purpose, which is to communicate via the allocation of formal meeting time that it’s valuable for us to know each other as people, not just as workers.

      It has taken a variety of forms. Sometimes it’s answered via Teams chat, sometimes verbally. I may set up a question because it relates to something I’ll be bringing to them although it isn’t labeled that way. Others can suggest the opening. It doesn’t have to involve words at all; one time I asked in advance for people to bring a photo of their pet to drop in chat, or a favorite animal meme if they don’t have a pet, and we all just looked at them and appreciated with emojis or comments. Jack and Jill are requiring advance preparation and other than the pet question I almost never do that. It’s not meant to add a task to their job descriptions.

      I’ve done a one-word check-in–what kind of energy are you bringing to today’s meeting?–and then a one-word check-out, same question. These bookends serve as a form of meeting evaluation, by the way, and that particular meeting didn’t energize people, which was good to know. But on the front end it’s really meant for people to be able to acknowledge their current state, which manages expectations for what they might contribute that particular meeting, with no judgment if the answer is “meh” coming or going.

      One of the most valuable of these was the time one person asked us each to reflect on how climate change has affected us personally. (Our work contributes positively to reduction of GHG so this is “work-related” but that wasn’t the point of the question.) The responses were powerful and moving.

      Our whole agency is working on a culture of belonging initiative to welcome bringing your whole self to work and this item on our agenda supports that. Maybe Jack and Jill are getting some signal from above that they’re supposed to “build team cohesion” without being given much direction and this is how they chose to approach it.

      So anyway–what if you volunteered to be the one who LEADS fun time and you shift it? It could continue what I’m guessing they’re looking for, which is a version of what I’m describing, and you could move it away from things that feel icky.

      Your question and the comments are useful in making me think again about the kinds of things I ask. I’ve stayed away from ones that might probe something about a bad childhood memory or other painful circumstances, I think–and I do think about that consciously.

    15. Quinalla*

      At our monthly department meeting, we use Teams breakouts to get groups of 4-6 people to talk for 10-15 minutes. Ostensibly it is for co-ops to ask questions of others in the department, but we’ve said it’s just a chance to socialize with folks for a few minutes that you don’t normally talk to. Our company is truly hybrid – many folks permanently remote, some that come in 5 days a week and a good chunk that do 1-4 days a week in office – ALL by choice except for 2 people that greet visitors, receive/send mail, etc. but those folks share that responsibility and can still work from home by covering each other or occasionally getting others to cover.

      Anyway, I find this a WAY better way to have some fun/social time without making everyone do an uncomfortable activity. We do have some totally voluntary culture events – BBQs, etc. in person and trivia, online puzzles, etc. online – but again 100% voluntary!

      You may not be able to make suggestions or give feedback, but something more relaxed where folks could just talk – they could even give say 3 topics to get people started maybe as they sound very into organizing it to the Nth degree – I think this would go over much better with folks!

  18. Tradd*

    I’m looking to get feedback on the reactions I got from others in this situation.

    We had hired someone for a customer facing job, 8-5 in the office, no WFH possible. She signed a document agreeing to this. On both of her first two days, she took off two hours early saying she needed to get her kids from school. She handed me unfinished work both days. There was NO mention of needing to do this daily during interview process. We talking morning of third day. This was going to be a daily thing, not temporary. We offered fewer hours, but she refused it. So, she was terminated.

    The weird part is when I’ve talked to other people about this situation, they told me we should have worked with a mother. Flex Time, WFH, etc. People don’t seem to get that WFH is not a possibility at my command. Owners hate it. Flex time not possible as office is only open maybe 30-45 minutes on either side of the day. Customer facing position anyway and you need to be there when we’re open to deal with customers. People tell me I should have put my job on the line to advocate for WFH for this mother. Why should I when regular WFH is not allowed for long term employees? I’m a customs broker and handle urgent shipments at home on weekends, so I only have WFH for that. Yes, owner of my small privately owned company is old school, butts in seats. But frankly, from talking with others in the industry who work at freight forwarders, lower desk level employees are generally still in the office. The only ones I know with regular WFH are long term valuable employees with special arrangements.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Nah, you’re fine. She signed a document (which is not a contract, presumably, so not legally binding) indicating that she knew what the hours would be.

      1. Tradd*

        I’m not worried about a lawsuit. I’m just wondering why people kept telling me we had to work with her on Flex Time, WFH when those aren’t options with my company. Are people so stuck on WFH that they are unable to accept that companies still don’t allow employees to do it?

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          There are a lot of people who don’t work jobs that are intrinsically in-person. They aren’t warehouse pickers, they aren’t chefs, they aren’t in-person customer service clerks. And so a lot of them instinctively say “Why don’t you let her work from home?” without thinking through the consequences.

          You might derail some of the comments by starting with “This is an inherently in-person job, because the employee has to do X, Y, and Z throughout the entire work day.”

          1. Tradd*

            See, the job CAN be done remotely. Owners don’t allow WFH. They don’t like it. Period. End of story. Industry is still mostly in the office anyway.

          2. GythaOgden*

            When I worked reception, I made a point of saying that the franking machine was way too big to put on the bus. They generally got the point.

        2. DC 18*

          Who are the people telling you this? Are they your bosses or otherwise high up at your company?

          If yes, maybe hear them out. If they’re just random people you know, then they obviously don’t know the specifics of your situation

          1. Tradd*

            No, people I know personally who are mangers in their own workplaces, etc. I was sharing the story as a “you won’t believe what happened?” type thing and was frankly floored by the reactions I got. No, my own bosses (the owners) wouldn’t have said to work with this woman, as the owners at my company HATE desk level employees WFH.

            1. The Real Fran Fine*

              Then you can kindly ignore those people – they don’t understand your workplace or the higher ups who made the call. You all did nothing wrong given that she was told upfront what the parameters of the job would be, and she couldn’t keep up her end of the deal.

            2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

              Seconding Fran and adding that the fact that these people don’t pause to check if WFH or flexibility is possible means they have a blindspot, so take the info that these aren’t the right people to vent to about work stuff.

              And, in the opinion of this internet stranger, you are 100% right to be peturbed both by your new hire and these people.

        3. Tio*

          Kind of, yes. Most people saw with the pandemic that we did actually have the capability to do a lot more wfh and flexibility than we used to, and that it made a lot of people’s lives better and easier if they used it. So I think that’s where part of it is coming from. At my last FF job, we did have that kind of flexibility, since even the air shipments needed to be cleared by 2pm in order to get the DOs to the trucker, so if someone left at 3pm and an air shipment came up, it wouldn’t be getting picked up that day anyway because we missed the pickup cutoff.

          That said, we had a receptionist position for the office and she had strict, set, in office only hours for obvious reasons. And I don’t think you were wrong to fire the lady, if that’s what was called for and agreed on. I think the people complaining either don’t understand or don’t want to understand the whole picture there, for that position specifically and also for your company’s overall mindset.

          1. Tradd*

            Yep, you get it! People skip right over my caveat at the beginning of the story that WFH isn’t allowed and Flex Time wouldn’t work. You have to be there to service the customers and that’s 8-5. Period.

          2. Caramel & Cheddar*

            Yeah I think it’s this plus the fact that a lot of workplaces are still hanging on to outdated ideas about what can be done at home, especially if they see pandemic WFH as a temporary stop-gap and not a new way of working. It creates an inherent distrust that “No, this job has to be done in person” is actually true because we know that’s just not the case for so many jobs that were previously understood to require in-person presence. I definitely get why people continue to distrust it when they hear “This has to be done in person.”

            It sounds like in this case it actually is true, which is why it’s annoying the OP, but that’s increasingly rare.

            1. Tradd*

              I joined this company first quarter 2021. They were already back in the office. I’m told that during Covid lockdown, it wasn’t full time WFH. People traded off days being in the office.

              1. Caramel & Cheddar*

                Sure, I’m just speaking more generally about why people question whether or not a job actually needs to be done in person. Everyone’s going to bring their own baggage/experiences to that conversation even when you explicitly state that yep, it definitely has to be done in person.

          3. Busy Middle Manager*

            Certain jobs only.

            Also even in the white collar world, a heck of a lot of projects got postponed or slowed down during covid. Company/employee dependent. Some people took the extra space to self-learn new programs and get better at their craft. Others stagnated and I have no clue what they even do all day anymore.

            1. GythaOgden*

              I was taken on to do all the little clerical bits and pieces that none of the senior team I clean up after had time to do. The problem was, they all thought I was too slammed with work to be doing their scutwork, and always deeply apologised for sending me jobs that were literally a two minute accounts-payable close out. I had to tell one of them in no uncertain terms that I enjoy the variety of stuff during the day and did not mind at all using MS Paint to create a coloured route for a security guard or imitate a numbers station to add 100+ building codes to a report filter on Power BI so I could run it at the press of a button later on.

              It would have been very easy to say hi Rarity, sorry, Applejack has me working on this, hi Applejack, Rarity has me doing that and hi Princess Celestia (i.e. my boss, who really is Celestia to my Twilight Sparkle), Applejack and Rarity have me doing the other so I can’t take anything more on right now. Ending up, of course, with not having much to do at all and being out of sight, out of mind into the bargain.

              Instead I kept saying to Rarity and Applejack when they almost grovelled to me about it giving me stuff to do that Princess Celestia had taken me on to do those bits and pieces for them and they were to shovel more of it my way. They get the idea now after about six months of me being in post and I’m the happiest pony in Equestria because I went from drastically underemployed and clawing my eyes out (I think I pretty much destroyed several rubber fidget toys during the last year I spent on reception) to nicely satisfied with the volume of work and happy to take on whatever people want me to do.

              But a more cynical person might well have exploited being perma-remote by stringing people who are based in several different offices along. And they now understand that I’m the person who got their metrics up to some of the best in the region simply because I had the time to dot all the is and cross all the ts — which is a pretty rewarding thing in itself.

          4. GythaOgden*

            The important thing in that situation is to make sure the receptionist is compensated fairly and that you don’t overstep her boundaries by piling stuff on her that’s your job but you CBA to go to the office and do yourself.

            I was in-person throughout the pandemic — evidently I only got a fully remote job when others were going back into the office! — and it wasn’t the understanding that we couldn’t work from home that was the issue. It was the lack of recognition of it, and worse, the lack of thought given to how stuff like ‘I left my laptop charger in the office the other day, can you overnight it to me’ or ‘a courier is coming at 2pm for this laptop, you’ll need to find a box to send it in’ (the latter being demanded by someone who’d moved 200 miles away to the idyllic LCOL area while we had to stay in the HCOL south of England) was showing that people were behaving like absentee landlords when prior to 2020 there had been a much better sense of ‘we’re in this together’ within the office and a better appreciation all round for the role of reception in keeping the building safe and functional.

            Meanwhile at least one IT chain of command broke down because one manager ordered her subordinate to collect stuff from the office and bring it to her at home on top of his other duties. Put it this way — by Christmas 2020 he was interviewing for her job because her own managers cottoned on to what she was demanding from staff who had no choice but to be in person (matey was hella cute and a really decent guy and was responsible for delivering imaged laptops to the office so people could come and pick them up — vital during the early stages of the pandemic when they were figuring out a supply system that didn’t involve too much face to face contact). I don’t know the specifics and I honestly was surprised it was her who had done that kind of thing because she wasn’t exactly Cruella de Ville before the pandemic hit, but I think it brought out a side in people which separated the people who did understand the new hierarchy and worked to mitigate some of its effect on us in-person workers from the ones who just did not get it and used in-person employees as their servants.

            A little thought goes a long way. I totally agree on principle that the receptionist is being absurd, but at the same time, I think you may owe her a bit of consideration as to whether the frustration is a symptom of something else that’s going a bit wrong in the new normal of a hybrid workforce.

    2. Michigander*

      I think it made sense to terminate her. It’s not like months into the job her situation changed and she asked if she could be accommodated somehow. It sounds like she knew from the very beginning that she’d need to leave early and just hoped that once she started you wouldn’t want to find someone new and would just deal with it instead of firing her. If you can’t be in the office until 5, you have to look for a job that doesn’t explicitly require you to be in the office until 5.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, even if WFH was an option, I wouldn’t love the lack of communication and follow-through on work that needed to be completed before the end of the day.

        1. WellRed*

          Yes, I suspect she would have been problematic in many more ways than this one. Best to cut her loose right away!

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        That’s my read as well. She went through the whole hiring process and was told what her hours would be. “Hoping they don’t want to bother doing that again” isn’t really a viable strategy, as she found out.

    3. Time for Tea*

      It’s not the WFH, hours, etc that’s the issue, it’s the fact that a brand new employee lied by omission, assumed you’d be all yeah that’s great!, and didn’t see why this was not ok. Asking upfront, totally fine. Work there a while and then ask if a variation is possible, again fine. Just do your own thing? Nope.

    4. Laura*

      The only reason I can think of going to bat for an employee in a situation like that is if it was a temporary thing (say, she lined up childcare before starting and it fell through) and she was actively working to fix that. But it doesn’t sound like that’s the case if she refused taking less hours and if she didn’t mention anything ahead of time! You didn’t do anything wrong in this situation.
      I think WFH is wonderful for jobs where it makes sense but some people definitely have a blind spot about it. Lots of jobs just do not lend themselves to WFH.

        1. Lucia Pacciola*

          One thing I’m getting from this scenario is that just because a job CAN be done from home, that doesn’t mean the owners are wrong to think maybe it WON’T be done from home.

          Even if this working mom was working from home, she’d still be ducking out early with unfinished work, to get her kids. *Maybe* she’d circle back, sometime hours later, when the kids are all fed and washed and put to bed, to finish her daily work. But I can totally sympathize with owners who would just rather have someone in the office 8-5, taking care of business.

          1. Tradd*

            The vibe I get from everyone I talk to is that employers who require employees to bring office for jobs that could be WFH are simply evil.

            I don’t mind being in the office. It’s actually easier for some things. I did the same work for a different employer (very small company that was remote only) for 8 months in 2020-21 (let go due to extra work not materializing) so I know how it can be done.

            1. not nice, don't care*

              Jerks maybe. But it’s their company so they make the rules. Applicants should self-select out if they want a modern workplace.

            2. Lizzianna*

              I will be honest. It’s a lot harder to manage a WFH team than it is manage a team that’s mostly in the office. I understand that many employees view WFH as a huge perk in terms of work/life balance, so I’m not advocating that it go away, but it is more work for me. I don’t think a company is being entirely irrational for deciding to require butts in seats, even if other companies weigh the cost/benefits differently. I know that’s not a popular opinion, but I know a lot of other managers who will privately express the same thing when we get together in less formal settings.

        2. Some Words*

          Since the owners don’t allow it, it’s not a WFH position. That’s the reality.

          That aside, this person left the job hours late on her first days on the job and stated this was her reality. In other words, she lied when she said she was willing and able to work the office hours the job required. They were right to let her go.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            This. If the company had pulled a bait and switch, told the person she could WFH or get off early on school days and then went “psych!” that would be one thing. But everything indicates she understood from the start what the requirements were.

            And as a poster above pointed out, WFH wouldn’t have solved the problem of her taking off with work undone every weekday.

    5. Managing While Female*

      Yeah, I certainly wouldn’t be putting my neck out for someone who was just on their third day. The people you’re talking to are unreasonable and too stuck in the idea of “how it should be” without any understanding (or willingness to understand) that not everyone has the power/ability to change how things are done at their workplace. The requirements for the role didn’t fit her lifestyle – and I assume from what you say that she knew that going in. She’ll find something else that is. Terminating someone sucks, but I think you can release yourself from feeling guilty about this one. It just wasn’t the right fit.

      1. Tradd*

        I don’t feel guilty. She knew how things were going it and chose to ignore those requirements.

    7. Jan Levinson Gould*

      Whoever those “people” are do not understand the needs of your business and the culture of both the company and the industry. No reason for you to even consider putting your job on the line for an unknown quantity. Requirements of the job were made clear, the applicant took the job perhaps hoping for forgiveness and an exception instead of permission (I hate that mindset in all aspects of life).

      My employer instituted a draconian RTO policy effective in a few months. I’m fortunate to be exempt since I do not live near any offices, but one of my direct reports will have a brutal commute. He values the ability to be remote for his family responsibilities, including a special needs child. I am fighting for him, on his side and doing what I can. Senior management in our division is on his side, but those at the top want RTO. He’s a great employee and worth fighting for, but if it comes down to the point where I will get into trouble for him not coming into the office then that’s where I’ll unfortunately have to draw the line. I have to put myself and my income first. My direct report knows that and understands. It stinks – the rug was pulled out from under this guy.

    8. Generic Name*

      I feel like this is an “am I the a-hole?” type of question. Your company has expectations/rules/policies for employees, and the new coworker did not follow them. That’s pretty straightforward. The reason why (mom with mom obligations) doesn’t really matter, in the business sense. From a human sense, SHOULD your company have more flexibility and allow WFH? I dunno, how easy is it to hire and retain people? Do you have gobs of qualified applicants banging down your door? Or are qualified applicants few and far between? Do people start, like this new employee, and then quit or get fired when they realize that you really were serious about it being a 100% on-site job. The company owners get to decide that, and yeah, if your company could still be effective by allowing flex-time or WFH, then they are likely missing out on qualified workers (who might happen to be parents). As long as you aren’t presenting the company (either verbally or in written recruiting materials) as “family friendly” or “flexible environment” or any other buzzword that might have led this person to think it would be ok to cut out 2 hours early, I don’t think anybody is unethical or wrong or an a-hole to decide to run the business this way.

    9. Lizzianna*

      No, I think you’re good. I’m in government and our WFH/remote work policy is being set by the very top of our agency (like, reports directly to the President level). I don’t have any flexibility, and I’m accountable to make sure my team is following the policy. I think it’s important to be transparent about options in terms of flex and WFH, and accept that you may lose some good candidates because of it. But it sounds like you did that.

      I’m also not wild about someone coming on board before raising the issue. Even if I was willing to entertain a new arrangement for a hard to fill position, I’d expect that conversation to happen when we discussed hours and in office expectations at the interview/offer stage. For example, I have an employee I just promoted to a job that requires more in-office time. It’s the end of the school year, and she can’t get her daughter into the after-school program until next fall. She had been taking a late lunch at 3, picking her daughter up, and then finishing her day (Daughter is old enough that she can occupy herself for a few hours at home, but not old enough to be home alone or get herself to and from school). I’m letting it ride until summer camp season starts, with the understanding daughter will be in after-care next fall. But that was an open conversation with a person who was a known quantity who I was willing to go to bat for.

      1. Lizzianna*

        And I realize I say in the first paragraph I don’t have any flexibility and then give an example where I am flexible. I should have said I don’t have flexibility on the policy itself, but am willing to be flexible where the policy does give me some limited discretion.

      2. Tradd*

        We’ve had previous candidates who came for interviews expecting a job posted as in office was going to be totally WFH. I now raise the issue as soon as they sit down, making them aware WFH is not an option. Those were folks in their mid 20s with little experience. The woman in question here was mid 30s. Talking with the owners won’t help. The one who deals with employee issues is also originally from another country and I think origin country’s work culture (in the office to this day) plays into the no WFH thing.

    10. Glomarization, Esq.*

      “Yeah, in a lot of other places, the boss might offer WFH options for this role. At our office, though, butt-in-seat is mandatory and that’s what the paycheck is for. It just is what it is and it’s 100% out of my hands.”

    11. Glazed Donut*

      I feel like we’ve seen some kind of push for employees to dictate working conditions more than we did before covid — and some of it rightfully so — but I remain confused why someone thinks the job offered is somehow up for debate after the fact.
      If a job states it’s fully in office, and hours 9-5, then that’s what to expect. If that’s a problem, it should be discussed before the job begins. If I’m not okay with that, I shouldn’t apply, and certainly shouldn’t start and expect to keep the job.

      For you Tradd, I think if the person had expressed concern (“I need to leave to get my kid who is sick at school” or “Would it be possible to flex these hours in this way?”) then I’d be a bit more sympathetic. But just leaving without communicating is odd and unprofessional. Offering fewer hours was a good solution, and I think you tried to make this workable.

      1. Tradd*

        Her work was good, which is why we were willing to offer reduced hours. What we do is complicated so someone who can come in and get up to speed quickly (only needing software training and customer specific requirements) is not too usual.

    12. Bruce*

      You offered her reduced hours, she said no. That seems like flexibility to me for a role with such clear requirements. To be clear I’m typing this from my attic office in my full time remote job, but we have people in the team who have to come in to work with equipment daily. Their flexibility is they can work remotely when they don’t have to be hands on, but some things can’t be done remotely.

    13. fhqwhgads*

      The people who are telling you these things are just straight up not listening to what you’re saying. Consequently, you should ignore them.

      2. goddessoftransitory*

        I agree. It’s like you told a story about walking your dog and people said “you know, the dog park really should extend another eight miles. You walking your dog all the way there and back again isn’t advocating for dogs and their owners.” And you’re all “…uh, while that may be true, my personal dog walking habits have zero to do with it, soo…?”

    14. Office Plant Queen*

      This is someone who should be allowed to work a job with flexible hours or ability to work remotely. But she was the one who chose to take a job that she knew didn’t have those options! Mabe she just needed a job and she took it thinking she could either make it work or get away with it long enough to find something else that met her schedule better. But I kind of doubt that, because someone desperate for a job isn’t likely to turn down the offer to work fewer hours if it means keeping their job – it’s obviously not ideal if what you really need is full time employment, but it’s better than not having a job at all if you need the money.

    15. Hyaline*

      You did offer to work with her–you offered fewer hours. She refused that option. You are totally reasonable here. I feel like people may be getting hung up on WFH/remote/flex hours here when the issue is “she was hired to do X job that requires in-person hours and she was not able to do that job.”

      The only “yeah, you’re the a$$hole” potential I see here would be if the situation was temporary–like if there was a waiting period to get her kids enrolled in after-school care. Even then she should have been up front about it, but I would say in that case it would be more understanding to work with her in that case. But it sounds like she just expected she could work part-time hours forever which…nope.

    16. JelloStapler*

      Why should you put your job on the line to defend an employee who is blatantly trying to avoid following a policy she was aware of and signed?

      1. Tradd*

        Because said person is a parent. Some people seems to think that trumps everything. Heck, we didn’t even know she had kids until she told us why she was leaving early.

    17. Bast*

      In offering her fewer hours, you WERE attempting to be flexible in the only way the company allowed. Regardless of whether you like the system or not, if upper management does not approve of WFH and refuses to approve it for anyone, there really wasn’t a whole lot you could do. It baffles me why someone would take a job knowing it is strictly butts in seats, no flexible hours, etc., if that did not work for them. Obviously, emergencies happen, but when you *know* that you will have to leave early daily to pick up the kids, that isn’t an emergency.

      In general, I advocate for employers who can be flexible to be flexible — but as a former middle manager myself, I also understand that sometimes upper management has unpopular policies that they refuse to change, and you must enforce them even if you heartily disagree with them. This isn’t really on you.

    18. Industry Behemoth*

      I think many people expected that post-pandemic, more employers would be forced to offer remote work as the norm, if they wanted to hire anyone at all.

      So far that hasn’t happened. And we’re seeing people take jobs that are either hybrid or could-be-remote-but-aren’t, in hopes of making them 100% remote.

      1. Tradd*

        Yes! The WFH jobs that were listed maybe even two years ago just aren’t there anymore.

      2. Minerva*

        Yeah. There’s a common idea that nothing was lost moving to wfh, and I’ve seen in my work how people define the work onsite out of
        their role….basically they define their role as narrowly as possible and expect someone else to make the onsite work happen.

        And some are horrible to get into meetings or get to respond, and some are really pushing the flexibility

    19. Joielle*

      Similar situation at my office and it’s similarly frustrating! In my case, most people do work from home a couple of days a week, but we hired a full-time in-person receptionist because members of the public can walk in for services anytime the office is open. We were extremely clear in the interview process that this position is in person five days per week from 8 am to 4:30 pm, and the candidate agreed. Now it’s a few months later and she’s asking to work from home because it’s not fair that she’s the only one who has to come in every day. I have so little sympathy because she knew what she was agreeing to! We were very explicit about it to avoid this exact situation!

      I’m on your side – folks can disagree about whether a certain job SHOULD be in person or remote, but the fact is that some jobs are in person full time, and if you agree to that up front then it is what it is.

      1. Tradd*

        Wow, hired to be a receptionist to deal with the public and she’s asking to WFH? Totally clueless.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I swear more and more people just don’t get “in person, customer facing” means you have to physically exist in the space to do that job!

      2. Industry Behemoth*

        The person knew what the job involved, and what she agreed to. She just didn’t expect to be held to it.

        Long before the pandemic, I took a job based in the company’s head office which they clearly stated would require occasionally working in a branch office across town. The branch office was in a place I’d never have commuted to on a permanent basis.

        I upheld the requirement. But they had other people who agreed to it, then the first time would swear, “You never told me I’d have to go to the branch office!”

    2. Hiring Mgr*

      This was the day when Gabe Kaplan beat Robert Conrad in a head to head race on Battle of The Network Stars.

      Thank you for remembering

      1. Pam Adams*

        I think the studio audience shouting “Welcome Back” is what got him to the win.

        1. Plus +*

          Then how would anyone who doesn’t work with you know? What’s the point of this?

          1. Joielle*

            I mean, it’s a pretty big bank. Not crazy to think there might be multiple employees reading these comments.

  20. Millie Mayhem*

    Hello! Does anyone have suggestions for benefits/perks that can be offered to staff who have to work full-time in the office? We have a small group of employees who have to be on-site Monday – Friday, while the majority of our staff have the flexibility to work Mondays and Fridays from home.

    Some ideas I have include: more flexible or reduced office hours, accounting drive time into hours worked, gas/toll stipend. Any other thoughts or ideas? Thanks!

    2. Sloanicota*

      Increased sick leave, more than the remote employees get. Maybe more PTO in general. If you can afford an “in-office stipend” do that since they’re probably spending more in all sorts of ways.

      1. Alice*

        Definitely more sick leave. It’s a huge advantage to be able to WFH when I am sick but not that sick, or contagious but not feeling I’ll, and thus I use less sick time than people who can only work in person.

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      More sick leave, so they don’t feel pressured to come into the office when sick.
      I like the accounting for drive time into hours worked thing, but are they still going to have to spend the same amount of time working in the office that they would have anyway? If not, then cool. If so, then I hope they’re paid hourly, or it won’t make a difference as they get paid the same no matter how many hours they work. If they ARE paid hourly, will it affect overtime?
      More flexible hours would be great, though: if someone wants to avoid rush hour traffic, that’s the best thing.

    4. WellRed*

      I wouldn’t want to get into the logistics of trying to account for “time worked” for driving but stipends or parking costs, sure! Flexibility around scheduling and food too.

      1. the cat's pajamas*

        A private place to make phone calls or even better, private offices if possible.

    5. Ashley*

      The flex scheduling is huge. Letting you adjust your day for doctors appointments and not having to take PTO is huge. Maybe not gas / toll stipend but if you have to pay for parking or transit the payroll benefit to do it through your payroll. (You don’t pay taxes on that money similar to a 401k deferral or HSA account.) I also think a Friday lunch or at least monthly lunch would be nice as recognition of being stuck in person.

    6. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Flexibility, commuting time and costs can matter HUGELY and cash is the best way to motivate.
      Accordingly, for those who must be fully in office, I’d suggest a significant premium to their pay, 5%.
      If their coworkers had 5 days wfh, I’d raise the in-office to 10%.

      Things that cost little or nothing: No dress code, free meals & snacks every office day, significantly (2-3 hours) shorter in-office days

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        And not just additional paid sick leave but also additional vacation days to make up for the time lost commuting.

      1. Not A Raccoon Keeper*

        underrated suggestion! My workplace just switched from the garbage coffee that comes with a multiyear contract when you buy the coffee maker, to a locally roasted chain coffee. It’s not my favourite chain or coffee by a long shot, but it’s actually tasty, and does make it easier for me to trek all the way there.

    8. spcepickle*

      Totally agree with everyone here – as flexible as you can be with hours and more PTO. I wouldn’t count drive time both because it varies daily for most people and because it varies so much between people. You could give everyone a flat amount of time so say we will pay you for 8 hours, but you only have to be in the office for 7 hours.
      I would suggest setting up a very clearly written policy about who gets these benefits. If I can work from home, but I decided to come in 5 days a week am I eligible? What if I come in 5 days a week but only for 2 hours? If you are only giving the benefits to people to must be in the office make it clear that the benefit will go away if they get promoted, change jobs, or if your business needs change. (I once lost a floating holiday because of a promotion and had no idea I would lose it).

    9. Grogu's Mom*

      On-site affordable daycare, with flexibility for staff to visit the daycare to breastfeed, volunteer to read to the kids, attend class parties, etc. Parents/caregivers who have to come into the office often have two commutes, one to daycare and then another to work; reduce that commute to one and the staff will love you for it.

      1. Tradd*

        VERY small company. We’re not some big megacorp. Totally not feasible and we don’t even have space for onsite daycare even if we wanted to.

    10. I love lunch*

      Daily lunch or breakfast (or however many times per week is feasible). Our company was open for about a year before a mandated “return to office” situation and during that time, the company paid for lunch for us every day if we were in the offce. Sometimes just deli sandwich boxes, sometimes a grubhub order that we could pick, random catering. But it was so nice to not have to worry about it!

      1. AnonCancerSurvivor*

        My company provided lunch for essential workers at the beginning of the Covid lockdown. I gained 10 pounds! A side salad and a small protein would have been perfect for me. But they provided a typical high-fat protein, a greasy starch, and a small serving of overcooked vegetable; along with a cookie and a soda. This was not healthy for me! Now that I type this out, I wonder if this contributed to my cancer diagnosis last year. Hmmn.

    11. Peanut Person*

      I find some of the suggestions here troubling. What you’re describing is not simply remote vs in-office; the hybrid people still spend 60% of their time also in office. Offering too many perks selectively to the in-office group will not be well-received. Some resentment can come up from the hybrid group. Even though I’m sure they are grateful for two WFH days, they still have 60% of their time in office.

      The drive time idea is nice- but you may want to set an average based on the group. (Like one job I had, I was 15 mins away and many employees were over a hour away.) Good food on Mon/Fri would be well-received. And ability to flex hours.

      You also don’t mention the other culture and policies- does the hybrid group get the chance to flex T-W-Th if they have appointments because they’re jobs are inherently flexible? Or are they ALWAYS expected to be in-office on those days? Because that changes the dynamic too.

    12. EA*

      I would consider perks that can be used Tue-Thu when the others are in office, to avoid conflict. See- good coffee, good food/snacks, flexibility in scheduling. Taking into account driving time sounds like a logistical nightmare.

  21. architect*

    Asking professional contacts to work on a personal project

    I am an architect, and need to hire a structural engineer to review some things at my house before I begin a renovation.
    Note: I’m not asking for free work, I intent to pay the engineer, however I find them

    Would it be odd to ask engineers I work with professionally if they take on small freelance projects or could recommend someone who does?
    Do I send things from my work or personal email?
    Why does this feel weird?

    1. Em from CT*

      It probably feels weird because we are so often given guidance to maintain clear boundaries between personal and professional worlds! But in this case, I think this is entirely reasonable! I’m basing this on watching my brother, who is an architect; he has done this before with no problem. I think as long as you make it clear up front that you’re happy to pay their normal rate, you should be fine. (Though don’t be surprised if they offer you a friends and family rate!) As long as you make it clear that this is a job like any other – that they can take if it fits their schedule, and turn down if needed – you should be fine.

    2. Seven times*

      I’m an architect as well and this is a totally normal thing to do! Send it from your personal email, but give a heads up if you have a call or something. If it’s a small firm, go directly to the firm, don’t ask for freelance work.
      If you’re still uncomfortable, tap your network. You probably know architects or contractors who do residential work and they definitely know affordable structural engineers.

    3. Susan Calvin*

      Pretty normal in my experience (source: married to a construction contractor so a good chunk of my social circle is prone to these kinds of situations).

      I expect it feels weird because I get the sense that your an employee of a larger firm, and working with them as representatives of other firms, and this would be… removing a layer from both sides of the relationship? It might make you feel better to start with asking for recommendations, and let them bring it up if they want to recommend themselves. Also, this is a phone call type conversation from my gut feeling, but ymmv.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      1. How else would you identify an engineer whose work you trust?

      2. The e-mail you choose to send it from depends on your office’s IT policies and also on whether your firm would take a cut in the transaction (and whether you care if they do).

    5. Generic Name*

      I had an analogous situation when I was at my last job. I was renovating my bathroom, and I wanted to make sure there were no asbestos containing materials. The small company I worked for at the time did asbestos sampling. I asked management how to go about hiring the company to take the samples. I drove my coworker to my house, they took the samples, and we went back to the office. When the results were, in they emailed me the results (I don’t recall if they took the time to write a memo saying “no asbestos found”) and they sent me an invoice, and I paid it.

      So I don’t think it would be odd at all to ask if they do any freelancing or know of anyone who does. You could also ask your building contractor if they could recommend any structural engineers if it feels too “crossing the streams” to ask a work colleague.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Yup. Maintenance at my healthcare facilities job doesn’t do household projects for staff at all, but they do offer advice if asked.

          Meanwhile my late husband worked for a landscaping company that did a lot of other other work in the off season to keep the cash coming in, and my husband ended up suddenly finding the garage door coming apart (just after he got his car out, luckily). He told his boss as part of a bigger conversation and his boss sent a couple of workmen who didn’t have anything better to do out to our house to sort things out. I assume they got paid to do it but boss didn’t charge us.

          IME people who do that kind of active physical work love getting the tools out (one friend went through a phase of wallpapering everywhere and we gladly let him loose on our spare bedroom after hubby’s cancer diagnosis necessitated setting up somewhere he could work from home in if necessary). A friend of mine works on his physiotherapist’s home as a handyman and decorator some weekends in exchange for credits for her services, as he’s a running enthusiast and has completed a number of marathons. It often works out in barter for us — the person having the work done is spared the expense but often has something else of value to offer, often a direct service, to give in exchange.

          We also have a corporate social responsibility programme at work that does give two paid days for people to get out and about and active within the community we serve. Even management has often come up through the ranks (two of the five deputy managers are former cleaners, both of Polish origin, and were effectively talent-spotted as having a keen eye for how their role fitted into the wider business) or studied surveying etc at university, so they’re always eager to pitch in; the head of local facilities when the pandemic started pulled on rubber gloves to help clean the sites she was responsible for alongside those she managed. There are a number of ex-Forces people in the business and as formerly active soldiers (my boss is a salty old seadog herself who was previously on duty in the Straits of Hormuz keeping Iran in check; one look from her and Khamenei himself would roll over), they like keeping fit and active.

          I think all in all people who have transitioned from labour to desk work actually like feeling more active again — for a lot of us as we age mobility is a use it or lose it thing and certainly if you’re someone who just grew up working physical jobs, it may be a case of feeling more stimulated by the exercise more than anything else.

    6. Forrest Rhodes*

      You already have a cordial relationship with the engineer, right? So would it be okay to say something like, “I’m doing some stuff on my own house and need to hire a structural engineer—is there someone you’d recommend for a small freelance project?”
      Could also add that of course, your first choice would be [the person you’re talking to], but you don’t want to put either of them in an awkward position, it may not be acceptable to your respective employers because of the business relationship, etc.
      That keeps everything up front—it’s a for-hire project, you’d like to find someone good, and you’re asking advice from someone whose work you respect.
      Also, that would let the person you’re talking to know that the ball’s in their court and they’re free to say either, “Yes, I know just who to suggest,” or “Yes, me! I do that kind of thing all the time. Let’s talk.”
      That wouldn’t be stepping over any lines, would it? (genuine question on my part)

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        “Do you know anyone who could do this” is a great way to ask, because it’s easier for them to say no if they feel uncomfortable.

    7. FromCanada*

      I think it depends on the relationship. Do you control their work or their access to work? If you do it might be best to go with someone more arms length. My husband works someplace where in the past he’s asked people he knows with the right trades tickets to do X work (paid) that he didn’t have the skill set for. He’s now the boss – he can no longer ask anyone he works with it would not be ok.

    8. Nesprin*

      I’d suggest an open ended question- “I’m currently looking for a structural engineer for a project on my house- do you know anyone who’d be able to take on a small freelance project?”

    9. RLC*

      Retired civil engineer here, not odd at all to ask engineers you work with about this! I’d suggest using your personal email address as this is a personal project.
      Another thought, the engineers you work with may have contacts with retired colleagues who have kept their licenses active and would welcome a small consulting job.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Off topic, but my dad is also a retired civil engineer. You folks keep the world going round; thank you for your service.

    10. Llellayena*

      Nope, perfectly fine. I’ve asked the structural engineers in my office about personal projects and I’ve also had my company’s primary structural engineer be the person who inspected my apartment for my landlord when he was selling. I’d use personal email (I was able to talk in person) for personal projects and they may ask you to use their personal email after the initial contact if they’re taking on the project outside their main company. It’s not weird, but it does feel weird for the initial ask.

    11. Quinalla*

      As long as you are offering to pay and make it ok for them to say no, it’s 100% fine! I’d approach it something like “Hey, I need to hire a structural engineer to do X for a house project. I’d rather have someone I know and trust look at it. Do you have time and what is your hourly rate or fee for X? If you don’t have time, can you recommend someone? Thanks!”

      If it’s just a quick questions, my architect friends and I trade those back and forth all the time like “Hey, is a 4″ duct ok to run to my bathroom at home?” or “What insulation/window/etc. would you recommend of these 3 options and why?” or “Hey, can I send you the new plans for my house/auxiliary building and you just do a a quick look and tell me if you see any red flags?”

  22. High performer*

    I’m looking for advice on how to deal with working with a low performer. My coworker is on a PIP, she needs to be fired but we seem to have weak management. One of the biggest issues affecting me is her poor communication. She does things where the outcome clearly affects me but doesn’t see the sense in bothering to mention to me. Should she survive this PIP I will be tasked with working more closely with her. I like my job, but working with her would tank things for me. What do I do to keep my sanity?

    1. Managing While Female*

      I’m assuming you’re not the one managing the PIP and you’re just the coworker, right? I would document all of this (all the things she’s not telling you and is causing you pain) and how it is making your job more difficult, and pass that on to management. They’re weak, as you say, so they may not do anything about it, but you should be in their face about how this person is affecting the team. Hopefully that will make them act, but who knows.

      If it doesn’t work, and you end up needing to work with her, I’d continue to document, document, document. If you feel like you’re being annoying to your management, frankly, good. They should be annoyed and actually take action. They should also (hopefully) catch on that they’re in danger of losing a high performer because they fail to adequately manage a low performer.

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        This, exactly. Communicating this to management may help them realize that she is not, in fact, meeting the requirements of her PIP.

    2. Procedure Publisher*

      Level set with your coworker on what things you need to be told about and give your coworker options on how to contact you. If she doesn’t seem to shape up, make sure management is fully aware that it is a problem.

    3. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Ugh, I’m sorry. I spent about a year and a half in a similar situation (for various reasons I think HR had to have VERY good documentation of poor performance before letting my coworker go) and it was a nightmare. As others said, if you have to work with her document everything. Are the things she fails to communicates unpredictable, or are there points in a project when you can anticipate she SHOULD be communicating with you but isn’t, and can come up with some other process for trying to get updates from her? (Annoying and frankly ridiculous as that is.) And you say you’ll have to work more closely if she gets through the PIP…is there any possibility at your company to shift your work elsewhere? The one way I lucked out in my situation was that I was at a consulting firm, so although it took some time I was eventually able to build a relationship with a partner outside my area, and get assigned to more of her projects. I really annoyed the partner my PIP coworker and I worked under, but saved my mental health and my sense of myself as someone who could do good work.

  23. Fake Cheese*

    What are your favorite work mantras / sayings to help you stay sane?

    My current ones are “I cannot care more about the budget, timeline, and quality of this project than the client does” and “I cannot drag the project to glory on my own”

    (The client has been changing the project priorities and scope almost constantly for the last month and at this point I’m just going to do what’s possible and let the rest fall as it may)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Larry Niven’s Law: not responsible for advice not taken.

      If you give someone advice, they don’t take it, and something goes wrong, then you should have no practical or emotional investment in the consequences. You don’t even have to say “I told you so.”

    2. Managing While Female*

      “In X time, none of this will matter” is one that I find myself saying quite frequently.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Yep. I always say “Some day this will all be six months ago.” Adjust the time frame as needed.

      2. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

        Agreed!! I’m currently reading Samuel Pepys’ diary (from the 1680s) and he worries about work-related things and I think, “Man…someday my work worries are going to be 340 years in the past and I’ll be gone. Maybe I should just let it roll off of me and enjoy living today!”

      1. Random Academic Cog*

        One of my office’s responsibilities is performing inspections and I created a designation of “NMM” instead of “N/A” for issues that inspectors note but aren’t our responsibility to address.

    4. Sloanicota*

      I must say “not my circus, not my monkeys” a thousand times a day. I love my org and our mission but it’s basically on fire right now (in the bad way) and leadership makes decisions that make no sense to me. However I have my one small, critically important role, and I need to focus on that and only that. Until the roof collapses.

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      “I can only present the data and offer recommendations. If senior leadership decides to take a direction that I am pretty sure won’t work, I am not responsible for the failure of that plan.”

    6. Irish Teacher.*

      “We can only do what we can do.” Basically so no point in worrying about the rest or blaming yourself for stuff you can’t control. Particularly in teaching for stuff like when a student doesn’t show up for an exam or attends class so rarely you know you can’t get him or her through the course.

    8. Toughouthere*

      “I cannot take this on right now” – June Diane Raphael (actress)

      Saw this on a Youtube comment on a Parks and Rec clip (one of my favorite shows) and I remind myself of it especially when dealing with the public: “Parks and Rec really nailed how annoying, frustrating, soul sucking and rage-inducing idiot members of the public are.” LOL Harsh but it helps calm me down

      I second the “not my circus, not my monkeys.”

    10. Monkey's Paw Manicure*

      It tell my people “If we have to do it all over again, it’s job security.”

    11. Llellayena*

      Today it’s “I cannot drop the structural engineer off a cliff until the last set is out the door…”

    12. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Mine is “That’s too many ghosts!” This is said by a character in a Ted Lasso episode when it is revealed that the curse in their training room is because it was used as a recruitment center for soldiers, more than 400 of whom died in the war. The phrase pops into my head every time I am faced with yet another new project/activity/task on top of my already overloaded plate (I know you feel me, fellow team-of-one readers). It makes me laugh, and reminds me not to panic, I don’t have to fight them all and to look for another solution that is less effort, like the ultimate resolution in the episode.

    13. Anon for this*

      Mine is really, really not helpful, but it’s “I hate this company”

      Maybe slightly more helpful – “I’m quitting”, though I far more frequently say “I quit! I’m done!” – though not to anyone that can accept my resignation (I’m working to that)

      1. Antigone Funn*

        “Take this job and shove it” and I always sing it (to myself, not at work). LOL

    15. JelloStapler*

      Similarly, “I cannot work harder than the student”.. however, I feel like the administration is fine with us doing that if it means the student stays.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Ooo, I felt this in the cold, dark void thst used to be my heart!

        It’s an important one.

    16. Medium Sized Manager*

      “Burgers and fries, nobody dies” was a lot more relevant in the restaurant, but still – nothing I do is an emergency and has an immediate impact on somebody’s life. I still take care to do a good job, but that doesn’t mean I have to react like it’s all an emergency.

      I also think about the hero complex (an example article if you are unfamiliar: https://steverudolphcoaching.com/the-hero-manager-complex-and-4-tips-on-how-to-avoid-it/). As a manger, I cannot treat everything like an emergent fire!

    17. Lady Danbury*

      “Their lack of prior planning is not my emergency.” Obviously I try to step up where I can, but it’s not my fault that you waited until the last minute to ask me to review a complex legal document. Fortunately, my coworkers tend to be fairly reasonable about deadlines/giving prior notice (unless it truly is an emergency).

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I was scrolling to see if anyone listed this one. I often find a way to accommodate colleagues, but I’m not always warm and friendly about it.

    18. CzechMate*

      No matter how nice/competent/professional you are, some people may just resent you because you have power and they perceive that they do not.

      My job isn’t to save people from themselves–sometimes, it’s to help them understand why they are facing negative consequences and to ensure that the consequences are fair in relation to their “crime.” (An attorney on reddit said something to that effect regarding defending their guilty-as-hell clients through the appeals process, and it’s actually very helpful framing for my work in higher ed administration.)

    19. not nice, don't care*

      My partner will sing Die Gedanken sind frei when work gets ridiculous.

    20. goddessoftransitory*

      “It’s just pizza.” Our old phone center manager was legendary; she could talk Satan himself into happily accepting a remake and a coupon. Because she kept her cool/cheerful persona and reminded herself that none of this was going to launch an ICBM; it was pizza. It could be fixed.

    21. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Customer’s gonna customer – customers do all kinds of weird, stupid nonsense, and that’s just the way they are. Not all of them, not all the time, but it’s always going to happen again.

    22. BikeWalkBarb*

      “This too shall pass.”
      “No one’s going to lose their birthday.” (Got that one from my husband.)
      “No matter what happens, the sun will rise tomorrow.” (If you like musicals feel free to burst into a certain song from “Annie” at this point.)

    23. Chauncy Gardener*

      My current theme with my (young) CEO and founder is “I can’t care more about this than you do.”
      My unspoken thread is “so f— you! And may you reap the rewards of your dumbass decision!”

  24. BeautifulTroll*

    I started a new job last October, and I have been loving it. My team is supportive and fun, and the work is engaging and satisfying. As of right now, my team consists of our director, 3 specialists, and me, a coordinator.

    The thing about being a “coordinator” is… I do the same work as the 3 specialists. Our job description is essentially the same, but they have a higher title and pay grade. I would chalk it up to seniority, as I know at least one of the specialists was promoted from coordinator. However, another one of the specialists (let’s call her Jane) started at the same time as me. Jane didn’t have more experience than me coming in. If anything, I have more experience— and a masters degree in a related field. I have also worked with Jane on a couple of projects that have made it apparent that in at least one skill area, I am far more proficient.

    As we head into summer, our director is focusing on building us as a team and increasing team work in favor of solo work. I can’t say that I feel great about this, because I feel a little weird about my spot on the team. It just feels very odd to me that I am a lower rank than everyone on my team, and I feel like it’s undermining my confidence in my work as well as my motivation.

    When I got the job, I was told there was no flexibility in the pay, but I did negotiate a $1000 starting bonus and was told there would be lots of upward mobility. I am quite sure that I am doing a very good job in my position. I get a lot of positive feedback for my work.

    My plan was to talk about this with my director during our annual performance reviews which were supposed to happen in April… but our organization is changing the performance review system so that’s been postponed and I don’t know when it will come up. Additionally, there’s been quite a bit of talk about 1) adjusting the titles and pay bands in our organization as well as 2) adjusting my team’s salaries to be more on par with the industry. However, there’s no real timeline for this, and as I work in a state organization things take forever so I’m not sure when (or if) this will happen.

    I guess my question is… when and how do I bring this up with my director? She’s really great and I’m not worried that having this kind of conversation will negatively impact me. But, I’m am new to advocating for myself in this way, and the whole thing makes me very uncomfortable and insecure and it’s hard to stay logical. Like, my brain knows that the difference in positions was likely due to budget at the time, etc, but my anxiety is telling me I’m at a lower rank and likely paid less because I’m an ugly troll while Jane is a beautiful princess (not helped by the fact that Jane was a literal ballerina and is several years younger than me).

    Thanks in advance.

    1. Synaptically Unique*

      I’ve had this discussion with staff members who felt they were doing the same work as a coworker on a different level. Usually they were not. They didn’t understand the scope of the others’ roles, and while there was some overlap, everyone was classified (and compensated) appropriately. Not necessarily the case for you, but something to consider in these situations.

    2. Glazed Donut*

      Have a conversation with your director! I could sense this was a state org before you got to that point. Sometimes there are specific rules regarding roles (ie a director must supervise at least 2 specialists but not more than 3) or the available roles aren’t a match (director wanted to hire another specialist but there was only a coordinator position number available to take, like a game of musical chairs).
      I think it would be good for you and the group to have clarity on the differences, and you can totally raise this in a way that shouldn’t make anyone feel defensive or uncomfortable. And, if in the end you ARE and remain doing the work of someone higher-paid, use that data to make your own decisions about staying or looking around.

    3. Janie*

      I think you can open this conversation by just saying you’d like to move to the next level, what would you need to get there, and (maybe) do you expect any spots to open up in the next year? This can be an ongoing conversation – you can get this info, then come back and ask for the promotion.

      And yes, if you’re a state org with well-defined grades, definitely ask to see how the grades are defined. But I recommend focusing on how you meet the qualifications for the role, not comparing yourself to others. It can distract in a bad way when you compare yourself to coworkers. It will immediately make the conversation about whether or not you’re really better than Jane, instead of about your role simply being classed wrong.

      And like Synaptically Unique said, it could be that Jane knows more about A, B, and C even though you know more about X. Sometimes someone with less experience, but more specialized experience, can be classed as higher. For example, I worked my way up, which means I have in-depth hands-on experience working with the tools we design. This sets me apart from others who have higher but more general degrees, have more experience but in other industries so don’t know the tools the way I do, etc.

      Also, other things I’ve seen get one early career person promoted over another: 1) politely sharing insights in meetings, 2) writing well (targeted to your audience), 3) volunteering for special projects, 4) volunteering for the work no one else wants to do, and 5) proactively solving problems. If it helps with your anxiety, maybe you can focus on doing one of these things a week/month? So that you feel you’re doing something about it. You can also start to keep track of your accomplishments, so you have a file ready to go when you more strongly make the case for promotion!

  25. Eowyn*

    This is more of a low-stakes vent than anything, but does anyone else deal with higher-ups like this?

    I genuinely like my skip-level. I think he’s nice and good at his job. That said, lately he’s been driving me crazy every time we’re on a call, because he just goes on and on about how busy he is and how much he’s working. I don’t mind an occasional “How are you?” “Oof! Been swamped, but otherwise fine” kind off exchange, but he will talk for 10 minutes about how he has back-to-back calls all day, has no free time, and is working through the night and on weekends to get things done. He also frequently (like more often than not) cancels and reschedules meetings at the very last second because he’s so busy or forgets what we’re supposed to be doing/have already done when we do meet. There have been times when I’ve had to be like “Joe, we’ve actually already done what you’re asking us to do… If you at this report we’ve submitted, you’ll see…”

    I’m also a person who likes to do a good job, but I don’t really care about climbing the ladder and being super ambitious. I find these soliloquies to be really obnoxious. I sympathize, I guess, with how much work he’s doing, but there are a couple of things there:

    1) I don’t know his salary but I’ve seen postings for similar positions at our company and he’s well compensated. Many times better compensated than I am, so hopefully that makes up for the headache that is his job.
    2) He’s an upper manager, so going on long rants/humble brags (because he does seem to be one of those who wears his burnout like a badge of honor) also has an added undertone of “this is normal and this is what working hard looks like”. As someone who values strong work/life balance, this grates on me.
    3) I just don’t like to hear the whining every time we’re on a call.

    There’s really no way, I think, to address it other than to be like “ah. Sorry to hear that. Anyway…” (which I do) but I will say that if other people have to deal with personalities like this at work, you’re not alone and it’s annoying.

    1. MsM*

      I feel like maybe there’s an opportunity here to interject with, “Well, seeing as you’re so busy, let’s get right into Actual Reason I Need to Talk to You, shall we?”

    2. Sloanicota*

      I’d see if I can head off the small talk at all. Rather than starting with “how’s it going” I’d probably start with “well I know you’re busy so let’s dive in to X …”

      1. Eowyn*

        Funny thing is, he’s the one who starts out the “how are you’s” and he’s also so distracted that he asks us how we are multiple times in a row. We’ll answer, he’ll pause (looking at emails/IMs” and distractedly just say “how are you” again… and again… and again. I’m also typically on calls with him and other people, so it’s hard to avoid someone asking him how he is, unfortunately. I just nod and smile and try to get into what we need to talk about ASAP.

      2. WantonSeedStitch*

        Yeah, this! “Thanks for making the time to meet. I know how busy you are! I wanted to talk to you about ___.”

    3. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      Ah ha ha! I work with someone just like this. Lots of “complaining” about how busy and important he is, and LOTS of name-dropping of the execs he is working with.

      I can’t change who he is or his compulsive need to talk that way. I avoid him where possible. When I can’t avoid him and he starts in, I change the subject. I choose to see him as a dorky character in a TV show. Shake my head and giggle about it instead of letting it get under my skin.

    4. not nice, don't care*

      “Oh wow, hey, have you checked out these resources on work/life balance? You’d be amazed what a difference self-care etc makes when things are hectic.”
      Treat the burnout bragging like the problem it is and respond with helpful tips.

    5. goddessoftransitory*

      Oh, not at all.

      I get calls from people who just are ranting about needing SOOOO much food and we have to basically build a TARDIS and go back in time to get all this food to them right away and I’m thinking “If you told me what you actually wanted we could get this in the oven…no? Just keep complaining? Okay.”

  26. Procedure Publisher*

    I’ve been working with a recruiter on a temp to perm opportunity, and it has made me feel very positive things about where it could go. However, I find these positive feelings are causing me to slow down on applying to other opportunities as a just in case this one does not work. Any advice on how to stay motivated to apply when you have an opportunity that feels like it is leading to an offer?

    1. Spacewoman Spiff*

      When I was in a similar situation over the summer I set myself a daily quota–nothing too high, I think it was two jobs a day–to apply to, just marked it on my calendar and would plan something fun to do after I finished my applications. If I didn’t do the applications, no fun. (On the motivation side of things, at the start of the summer, I thought I had a job locked up, stopped sending new applications, and…didn’t get the job. So, I don’t have great specific motivational advice, other than to maybe pretend this has just happened to you.) Good luck!!!

  27. Applesauced*

    A young coworker was let go a few days ago, and the office leadership gathered the staff at an informal meeting to share that news and how it would impact us. At the end, they asked if anyone had questions.

    I asked “was it anything contentious?”

    Even I don’t know what I meant…. I just had a brain fart and that’s what came out. The guy who left was young and just ok at his job, but I think I was surprised by the suddenness and assumed that something dramatic happened, and …. I don’t know why I asked that

    1. FromCanada*

      I think it’s normal to want to know some context. People often want to hear that there was a process and it didn’t come out of left field. Also, if you didn’t see it coming chalk it up to a brain blip with a poorly worded question. No one will remember in 6 months. :)

    2. Gyne*

      This doesn’t sound odd to me at all… I would assume you were asking if there was some horrible misdeed that they discovered. And that they probably would be too professional (hopefully) to answer, but I think it’s normal to wonder if the person fired was let go because of budget/staffing and this is something that might affect all of you, if it was a performance thing specific to this person, or if they were found to be embezzling company money.

    3. anon_sighing*

      I mean, they called you in to talk about it. It’s a reasonable question to ask “why?” if you didn’t see any problem. It’s jarring to know people can be let go suddenly without any clear sign.

    4. Educator*

      Totally normal to wonder, but not really something they can tell you. They have a duty to protect the departing employee’s privacy.

      When I was earlier in my career, I used to imagine that most departures were dramatic. Now that I am on the other side, I can see that they are almost always really routine. Unresolved and well-documented issues, change in life circumstances, family needs, changes in goals–it’s very rarely the drama that we sometimes have the fun of seeing on this site!

      1. Lady Danbury*

        This! Alison even has a post that addresses this issue (search “how to let your staff know that someone was fired”). While you shouldn’t beat yourself up over the question (mistakes happen), it’s not something that should be asked and definitely not something that management should be answering. I’m assuming that the purpose of the meeting was mostly logistical (e.g. how his work will be reassigned).

    5. Bast*

      Plenty of people want to be assured that they aren’t next when someone gets fired. They got fired because they did something egregious makes you feel better than “we aren’t doing so well this quarter and need to make some cuts.”

    6. goddessoftransitory*

      Sometimes our brains just blurt out stuff. You didn’t accuse the guy of anything or repeat rumors: I’d file it under “okay, that happened…reminder to self; eat a Snickers before meetings and balance blood sugar.”

  28. AnonToday*

    Talk to me about letting your work know your pregnant. I have 0 concerns about being discriminated against (intentionally or subconsciously) based on how they have reacted to others. I do worry that telling one person will spread like wildfire, so I work under the assumption that telling one person (including HR) is equivalent of telling the full team. I am surprised to be 6 weeks rn. We plan to tell our parents at 8 weeks and likely closest friends at 12. There is some overlap between our social groups and work colleagues. When do you tell? Should I let me direct manager know during a regular monthly check up? Should I let boss or HR know first?

    1. Not the Droid You're Looking For*

      I am currently 15wks pregnant with my second, and I have to say – I think the answer to these questions is entirely dependent on your unique situation. I am not going to tell my current manager until 25ish weeks, based on their management history and my concerns about being retaliated against. However, I have a friend that had a really positive relationship with their manager and faith in their org and shared at 7 weeks when her morning sickness ruined her ability to go in-office for a few weeks. It really comes down to your level of trust and comfort in your job and any accommodations you might need, there’s no objectively right time (as long as it’s before the minimum required notice for parental leave at your workplace, if you get leave).

    2. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      My personal preference would be to wait until 1-2 months before your due date before bringing it up at work, but I also know that this is on the extreme end of what most people would consider realistic. Since you have overlap between work people and your other social groups, I think you should probably aim to share the news with both groups around the same time. Telling your direct manager first is the way to go here. She will appreciate the professional courtesy, and can direct you on where to go next – whether that’s to HR to start arranging admin stuff for your leave, or to the rest of your team to share with them, or whatever it is. Congrats :)

    3. Standard Human*

      I told my manager around 12ish weeks at a standard bimonthly 1:1 — mostly as a heads up about doctor’s appointments. I told HR at like five months — otherwise I told some work friends at about the time I told less-close friends and everyone at like… 20 weeks?

      I felt intensely private about the pregnancy, and I was at a higher risk for loss — I had an odd relationship with a lot of my coworkers and a very supportive relationship with my boss, which impacted disclosure.

    4. JustaTech*

      I told a coworker very early (like, after we told our parents but well before telling anyone else) but that was because she blurted out to me that she was pregnant too. Which made me even more nervous about telling my boss (since half of his team was going to be out at once).
      I think I told my boss and his boss at like 12 weeks, and my other two immediate team mates around the same time. I think I told the rest of my department some time after 20 weeks – it came up at a social thing I and I was kind of like “uh, you hadn’t noticed? I feel like I’m showing all over the place”.
      (We also did our “formal” ie Facebook announcement at 20 weeks.)
      Other people at work found out when we had to evacuate due to explosions and people in my group were being extra solicitous of me and my coworker.

      Telling HR was kind of a laugh because we went through a few HR people so I called to ask for help with the paperwork and just said “I *will* be taking the state maximum leave” (which is way more generous than company policy or FMLA) and the brand new HR guy was like “right? OK.”

      There were absolutely people I worked with at other sites who didn’t know until about a month before I went on leave, because I did not travel for a multi-day meeting (and they kept forgetting me), but it wasn’t super essential for them to know I would be out.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh, and my boss took the whole thing surprisingly well (given he was losing half his team for 3 months), and his boss (my skip) was good about it and also kind in a South Boston kind of way. (Even if I did have to pointedly remind him of things that a parent of 3 should know, like why I was masking full time.)

        Aside from the documentation being a mess and it turning out that I probably should have gotten more leave paid by my company (we switched STD providers in the middle of my leave), it turned out fine.

    5. Bast*

      I have 2 not so bad stories, and one nightmare.

      Two not so bad stories — worked for a huge retailer with a corporate office, and they couldn’t really say much. Some managers didn’t really get why I needed to pee so often, but other than that, they didn’t treat me any differently than they normally would. The other took place during 2020 right after Covid hit, and we were preparing to return to the office. As someone with a history of early loss, I was not planning to disclose my pregnancy for a few more weeks, but I did express my concerns about returning to the office when we were still unsure what the effects of Covid on pregnancy was. I was allowed to WFH for an extra two weeks, but also was not treated any differently once I returned.

      My nightmare story was working in an office where it was very much a “good old boys” club, where almost everyone in leadership was a white man, very few women attorneys at all, and the mostly female staff members were mostly beyond child bearing age. They were less than pleased, and despite receiving a huge raise and a glowing performance review only a couple of months prior, once I announced my pregnancy, I could do nothing right. By the time I was five/six months pregnant, I was told that they no longer thought it was a good fit. They had made it so miserable I was planning to just have the baby and look for a job in the interim, but due to that I had to have an unexpected unpaid vacation in between.

    6. EMP*

      I told HR and my manager at 16 weeks (because they needed to know I’d be taking leave) and everyone else at 20. I have flexible hours and a desk job so I didn’t need accommodations before then. It’s really up to you!

    7. EA*

      I let my boss know first. With pregnancy 1, I had some morning sickness and asked to get out of some travel, so I told boss around 10 weeks. Pregnancy 2 I waited until 4 months. I say wait as long as possible – at least second tri – if you have no pressing reason to tell.

    8. Lizzianna*

      I told my boss fairly early, around 6 weeks, because there was a part of my job I had to step back from for medical reasons (exposure to wildfire smoke during controlled burning). I didn’t tell the rest of my team until a lot closer to 20 weeks, when I started showing. If we’d been remote, I probably would have waited until closer to 25-30 weeks, but I’m fairly private.

      I will say, I’ve seen it all over the map, from people sharing anywhere from 12 weeks (or earlier as a supervisor, if there was a medical situation) to finding out they had a baby after they’ve already gone on leave.

    9. BikeWalkBarb*

      I would wait until you’re past the first trimester at least, and if you’re telling your parents talk to them about not gushing on social media until you’re ready to reveal it to others.

      Talk with HR before Boss to know your rights and options for leave just in case Boss doesn’t know. That way if you hear Boss make some assumptions you know aren’t grounded in policy you can tell them you’ve checked and they may want to review it too.

      I say all of this as someone who had multiple miscarriages and had a truly unfortunate episode long before social media. I share it because the early disclosure can have terrible consequences if you encounter any challenges in your pregnancy (which of course everyone hopes is NOT the case). So far no one has raised this possibility and it needs to be in your thinking.

      One of my pregnancies was “announced” by a friend at a public event well before I was ready to tell anyone. I was a public figure at the time and my pregnancy made it into a newspaper column. I subsequently miscarried, and then had the joy of calling a reporter and telling them they needed to have different standards around discussing a woman’s pregnancy in print without talking to her about it. Yes, I cried during the call. Reporter was a woman and she felt terrible but not as bad as I did every time someone who had read the article came up to congratulate me.

      Get further along in the pregnancy and know that everything is going well before you tell anyone. Eight weeks is very early. My $.02.

  29. Hotdog not dog*

    Any recommendations on a task management software that would work for 3 people to be able to access and monitor status on a single list? I recently joined a new team, and the default seems to be that one person creates a list and emails it to the other 2. There has occasionally been confusion over who is working on what.
    The challenge is that one of the 3 people is our manager, who is just tech savvy enough to read his email.
    He’s a great manager in all the other ways, so we’re willing to work around that.
    We tried using Tasks in Outlook (since it’s already on everyone’s computer) but Manager doesn’t like that it fills up his inbox. I feel that there should be a basic work list where people can mark off what they’re working on so the rest of the team will see who’s doing the thing.
    Any suggestions?

    1. alldogsarepuppies*

      If you alrady have it, woudl a shared One-Note work. You can have the same task function wihout feeding it into your inbox by creating check list

    2. JustaTech*

      If you’ve got the full Office suite, can you make a shared Teams document that everyone can see and edit at the same time? It’s just barely a step up in terms of tech savviness required, but if email had mostly worked in the past it might be a good next step.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      Seconding the OneNote. Also, if you have Teams, you can create a group chat, and add an Excel spreadsheet to it. I’ve done this to manage work with two other colleagues and it works pretty well.

    5. Hotdog not dog*

      We do have Teams, and he uses it! An excel spreadsheet in Teams might be just his speed.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Protip: You can right-click on a spreadsheet and pin it to the chat. This means it’s linked at the top and you don’t have to go through the “Files” drop-down to get to it.

        I just found this out last month. It’s a great feature. Now if only I could add a picture to Word without accidentally summoning a demon. Microsoft, wtf?

  30. Stuff*

    Well, I’m doing my first write-up as a manager right now. I know we mostly hate write-ups, but they’re policy in my workplace, so I have to use them. And in all fairness, this is a terminal write-up. I’m firing this employee and using the write-up to document why.

    I really, really don’t want to fire someone, it’s just, my two predecessors each caught her committing a fireable offense, and gave her a written warning instead of firing her. Now I’m a manager and I’ve caught her on the same shit, and it is shockingly blatant. She’s not even making the slightest effort to conceal her actions from me. She can’t get another warning, she honestly should have been fired last time, and it wouldn’t be responsible management not to terminate her now. So as much as this sucks, she’s forced my hand.

    Ugh.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I’m sorry, that’s always tough. But in most workplaces I’ve worked (and I did see your comment down below) this employee wouldn’t even get a write-up. They would just be walked out the door.

      1. Stuff*

        I agree. In my retail days, this would have been a firing on the first offense. I really don’t want to be a tough or punitive person, but I do see what she did as something that can’t be tolerated. What really gets me is the second warning, because, like, after getting one second chance on a fireable offense and blowing it, you’d think she’d have gotten fired then and there.

      2. Stuff*

        I mean I’ll tell you what she did: she likes to stay clocked in after leaving work to rack up some extra pay. Which is fraud, and something I’d have expected to get her fired a long time ago. This is my first time catching her doing fraud, but she has two prior write-ups over this, and I just can’t not terminate her and be a responsible manager, even though I’m dreading doing it.

        1. Generic Name*

          You feel bad because you are a compassionate person, but your employee is knowingly and willingly committing timecard fraud. They should be the one who feels bad.

        2. OtterB*

          If it helps any, think of it as being fair to other employees who not committing fraud.

        3. goddessoftransitory*

          Yep, that’s fraud. And frankly I’m annoyed as hell at those two other people for not getting her fired, emboldening her, and dumping this task on you.

        4. Sara without an H*

          You have my sympathy, but every place I’ve worked time card fraud meant you were fired on the first offense. Your employee has been given way more grace than most employers would extend.

          It’s never fun to do — and anybody who enjoys firing people shouldn’t be a manager. It stinks that your predecessor has left you the mess to clean up. Good luck and don’t brood over it. You’re doing the right thing.

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Yeah, even at the place it was incredibly hard to fire anybody and they hung on to the lowest performers out of scarcity mindset (oh, but they answer *some* calls…) – time card fraud was one and done.

            It might help to think of this not as you, Stuff, choosing to terminate her employment. She is choosing to do actions that make her unemployable by your organization.

    2. Hiring Mgr*

      If this is your first time having to fire someone, and you’re new to management in general, I’d advise you to ask your boss or someone in HR to help guide you with both the write up and the actual termination meeting.

      1. Stuff*

        My boss is going to be leading the meeting, rather than me, and I met with HR about it a couple days ago.

    3. not nice, don't care*

      Slight comfort in that it was a blatant reason and not the first time. At least there isn’t any gray area.

  31. Confused*

    I live in a country where written employment contracts are the norm. I’ve now received a LoI for a job offer, which I’ve never seen before. Any advice on what to consider whether I dare to resign based on an LoI? It reads like a firm offer, but again, I’ve only seen actual contracts before.

    1. Susan Calvin*

      Oh no, don’t. The most I would do is try to play for time with any other interview processes you’re in at the same stage – this reads like “recruiter trying to get a foot in the door before someone else snaps you up” although I’ve never actually seen a LoI used for this, but only a contract is a contract.

    2. Cordelia*

      I don’t think you should resign. A letter of intent just shows that they intend to offer you the job, it doesn’t mean they have, and all sorts of things could still go wrong. They probably just want to make sure you don’t take another offer elsewhere

    3. kalli*

      So usually it’s like a summary of what will be in the contract, before you sign the contract on the first day. If there’s anything about it you don’t like or would change, this is when you raise it, so that when you get the contract it’s all correct and you can just sign it.

      Don’t resign until you’ve actually gotten to a point where you’ve accepted the job.

      It might feel different because it’s in a more formal format, but it’s like getting an email after the interview process being like ‘We think you’re great, this is what we’re offering. Does it sound good?’ and if you say yes you get the contract to sign, if not you talk and if it works out you agree on something else, you get the contract to sign, otherwise you move on.

      So does it lay out pay, conditions, relevant award/EBA/legislation, benefits etc? Is there anything else you’d want to know, like non-competes, rules about side hustles, dress code for in-office work? Now’s when you nail those down.

      But don’t resign until you’ve formally said ‘Yes, I am taking the job and my start date is Monday.’

  32. Susan Calvin*

    How do you deal with itchy feet?

    I like my current job, and while it’s not all free candy and unicorn rides, I’m learning a lot, earning very decently, and getting on with my coworkers, so I would normally expect to stay at least another year before the the learning factor starts to wane. However, I was recently approached by a recruiter for a very interesting, unexpected opportunity – without going too much into it, I got fairly invested in that (I know, mistake) but didn’t even end up making it to the final round, which left me feeling a bit cut off at the knees, and jittery with “interview energy”.

    Since then, the urge of poking around linkedin and other job boards has been strong, and while I’m pretty good at window shopping without buying, there must be some way to handle this funk that’s less detrimental to my enthusiasm about current!job?

    1. A Girl Named Fred*

      For a second there, I thought you meant literal itchy feet and was very confused about the start of the question lol.

      Would it be possible to channel some of that energy into a new project or skill at your current workplace? Sometimes for me that itch just means I’m bored, so if I can channel it into something new professionally or personally that tends to take the edge off it.

      1. Susan Calvin*

        whoops, haha – that’d be more of a weekend thread question!

        I think you’re right, the honeymoon phase in this job is definitely over, but as for trying something new, I think I’m currently in the long, boring, gently flattening part of the learning curve where I’ve grasped the essentials, but haven’t actually mastered the role to the extent where my manager would appreciate a course change (quite reasonably)… tackling it from the personal angle might be the way to go, finally take that photography class I’ve been eyeing maybe!

        1. A Girl Named Fred*

          Oooh, do it! My role is fairly rote so I’m in a routine now, and I’ve got four or five personal WIPs in different disciplines going on at home to try and still that itch. Currently fighting off the urge to buy supplies for a fifth discipline that I’ve never tried before, buuuuut I don’t necessarily recommend going completely off the deep end like I have, lol! I hope the photography class helps and is awesome!

    2. Blue Pen*

      IDK I think you’re being a little hard on yourself! If you want to look, look! You’re entitled to do so, and who knows, you might find something that makes you want to click “add to cart.” ;)

      FWIW, I’m very happy in my job and have zero plans of leaving anytime soon. But even I poke around for a few minutes every day. I just like to see what’s out there, what I might be interested in, how I might consider a transferrable skill set in the future, etc. And an added bonus is that it helps me keep an eye out for positions my loved ones whom I know are looking might’ve missed.

  33. JustaTech*

    How should I decorate my office?

    I’ve just gotten my own office (my old boss’s office) and I’m trying to figure out how to make it more “mine” and less “old boss’s office”.
    I can’t move the desk and attached drawers (L-shaped, desk facing door) or the whiteboard, and I have a low big file cabinet (that I need to go through and recycle most of) and a little moveable set of drawers and a mini fridge, and tow “guest” chairs. Oh, and the door/front wall are glass (with zero soundproofing).

    There’s a high shelf to the side of the desk that currently has all of my (and my old boss’s) office swag/desk tchotchkes, a fabric corkboard that’s got some pictures and comics clippings, but other than that it’s a sea of white.

    Functionally I’m thinking of some whiteboard calendars for project planning. Decoration-wise I’m thinking some work-related mildly funny posters (that I would make myself) and maybe some small Lego flowers?

    I’m also thinking about a small electric tea kettle, since our hot water dispenser isn’t very hot and I’d like to be able to actually use my mini teapot to make tea and not warm colored water.

    Is there something I’m missing? Something I should 100% avoid?
    Thanks!

    1. WellRed*

      How’s the lighting? I like to have a (work appropriate) desk lamp for those darker days to be add a little warmth and light. I am not loving your idea of homemade posters for reasons I can’t articulate. Do you have an artist or photographer who’s work you like instead?

    2. Random Academic Cog*

      Be extremely cautious about humor. For lots of different reasons, humor doesn’t always translate the same for everyone and you don’t want people who come into your office to be uncomfortable. I have lots of nature pics (trees, birds) and plants in my office. Those are universal non-offensive images.

      1. JustaTech*

        What I was thinking (and I’m 100% open to noping out or putting them in my home office) was two lines from a song:
        “Look at me still talking when there’s science to do” and
        “Now these points of data make a beautiful line”
        In some kind of fancy font.
        They’re only funny if you’re familiar with the video game Portal, as they’re from the credits song, where the murderous computer you just escaped is talking about how she’s still alive (and doing ‘science’).

        I was also thinking about some tea towels that are reproductions of posters from the Women’s Suffrage movement of the early 20th century, but those might read political. (And they are, but they’re also beautiful art neaveau posters.)

    3. spcepickle*

      I am not sure what your rules are but both offices I moved into I painted. The first one a really light purple and my current one (with windows!) a nice lake blue.
      The paint really helped make things feel cleaner and more mine. Each office took a gallon (I would never do the ceiling). It took one friend and I half a day Saturday.

      I also did lighting, plants, and art. My art is three of the same frame with hand painted nature (a desert, a mountain, and a sailboat) pictures. The only funny thing I have put up is a calendar that added cats to Army Corps site and as a civil engineer working for the government it worked. Humor is really subjective and I would be carful with it.

      You could consider curtains, which will help add color and dampen sound. Also windows can really affect the temperature of your office and currents can help keep the cold and hot sun out.

      1. JustaTech*

        I don’t think I could get away with paint, and I don’t have any windows (but the glass wall faces out so I can look out the windows in the open office area).

        I should check and see if the prohibition on plants still stands. We used to not be allowed to have our own plants because there were company plants and a paid service to care for them and the service company didn’t want to risk people’s personal plants sharing bugs. But we don’t have company plants anymore, so maybe no one cares?

    4. JustaTech*

      It is very strange cleaning out the desk/office of someone who’d been at the company more than a decade and then had to vacate suddenly.
      Like, there are all the files I need to go through (at least I understand them), but it’s melancholy looking at all the projects we worked on that went nowhere. All the lists of people who aren’t here any more. All the business cards.
      Then there’s the weird stuff, like, why so many glue sticks? We use tape, not glue sticks. And the obligatory 87 soy sauce/mustard/ketchup packets. (At least none had burst.)

      And good gravy our building is dusty. The amount of dust I wiped off every single flat surface is gross, and we renovated like 5 years ago!
      Also, everyone, take a good look at your mouse. Now go grab a push pin or a paperclip and see how much fluff and schmutz comes off or out of the scroll wheel. It’s not like my boss was a gross or sticky person, it’s just that you touch your mouse a lot and rarely ever look at it to see the grime.

    5. not nice, don't care*

      I have string lights and a plant light on a timer (and a lot of plants), a wall of paper calendars with pictures of nature and animals, hiking maps…can you hang anything on the glass parts?

  34. Commuter*

    I moved for work during lockdown and I hate it here. I hadn’t been to this city before accepting the job, the company was AWFUL to me about it the first year I lived here, and I just don’t want to be here permanently. We finally have a permanent hybrid schedule (it was up in the air for 3 years, lol) of 2 days in/3 days out and I am contemplating moving to a different city in the state and commuting for an overnight. I’ve checked and there’s no policy against this, but it is definitely Not Done at my company. I worry that if I tell my boss, he will think that I am leaving the company (which I might at some point, but I’m not ready to yet), or HR might decide to make a policy prohibiting it (I would leave over this), but I feel like I am being dishonest if I don’t say anything.

    Has anyone else been in this position, and if so how did you handle it?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I think it would depend on the timeline that you plan for leaving the company. Commuting overnight tends to get very old, very fast. Adding in the stress of deciding to discuss or not to discuss will compound that. If you only plan on staying there for a few more months, it might be doable and I just wouldn’t say anything. If you don’t think you’ll be ready to leave the company for years? That’s a lot trickier and the longer it goes on the worse it will be when they find out.

      What if you just kind of soft balled the question in to your boss? Not really asking like it’s a definite, more like a hypothetical.

      1. Commuter*

        Ideally it would be for a max of 6 months, I don’t plan on staying here longer than that.

    2. Hyaline*

      I think I’d just focus on finding a new job, honestly…I don’t think I’d waste time or energy moving somewhere and commuting that I could spend on finding a better fit both for work and lifestyle/location. Maybe start exploring cities you think you might want to relocate to? Maybe poke around the policy and see if (like the traveling WFH question the other day!) you could do your remote work from anywhere and use the flexibility to travel/visit potential relocation areas?

    3. Tio*

      Don’t you kind of have to tell them? You’re going to need to change your address in the system for your tax documents to get mailed out. Also, you’re technically working in another state 3 days a week. That means the company has to do payroll for that state, since that’s where you’re located. You could get into a LOT of trouble for that, not just with the company but they might have to alert the state and you’d owe that state taxes and might have an issue with business nexus if no other employees work there. I strongly agree with the other commentors, look for a new job instead of this. It seems very likely to implode. Plus, are you paying to stay at a hotel once a week? That’s a not insignificant expense in both money and commute time

      1. WellRed*

        It’s another city within the same state but I agree, this seems fraught with potential problems.

  35. Anon for this*

    Hello! Is anyone here a corporate librarian who’s made the switch to public or academic librarianship in the US who’d be willing to share their experience(s)? Is there anything you wish you’d known before making the switch?

    This is something I have wanted to do for a while, but I’d like to go in clear-eyed about possible pitfalls. When it comes to public libraries, I’m aware of the pay cut, budget cuts, probably needing to relocate, the general downsides of public-facing jobs, and conservatives off their gourds trying to ban books. For academic librarianship, I honestly have no idea what possible downsides could be.

    1. Wordnerd*

      I’m in the non-faculty side of academia but work closely with our library staff, and honestly, most of the cons you mention for public libraries are the same with public academia. Our library’s budget is near the bottom of the priority list across the entire university. The general conservative disdain for education affects budgets across the board, even if it’s not specifically about banning the books in the library.
      (For the record, I guess I am assuming “academic librarianship” means “being a librarian in a university library. If I’m wrong, forgive my ignorance and ignore my input.)

      1. Anon for this*

        Ack. It makes complete sense that public universities would be facing the same issues—naive of me not to realize that! Thank you.

      2. Nocturna*

        I am an academic librarian at a public institution, and we definitely get paid much better than the public librarians around here. This might depend on what state you’re in; I’m in a state that is still relatively friendly to higher education.

    2. Goddess47*

      Not a librarian but a retired IT academic person… The corporate calendar and the academic calendar are *very* different things.

      -In higher education (I have no K-12 experience, someone else needs to speak to that), August is generally start of classes and ramp up time.

      -While there may be more holidays, sometimes that means working those holidays to keep the library open.

      -Academic libraries are open long hours, expect to have to work nights and weekends as the new person.

      -As a long term academic person, people who came from corporate were frustrating and the worse were the ‘in my old job, we did it this way…’ proclaimers, as if it is automatically better. Never use that phrase.

      Good luck!

      1. Anon for this*

        As a long term academic person, people who came from corporate were frustrating and the worse were the ‘in my old job, we did it this way…’ proclaimers, as if it is automatically better. Never use that phrase.

        Haha, I will try not to be that person! I think many (most?) environments will be a step up from the way we operate at my current position.

        Thank you for the advice!

    3. Academic and Public Librarian*

      Good luck with your library search! I’ve worked in both public and academic libraries. From my experience, there’s going to be more job openings for public libraries, but if you interview, ask, ask ASK about work culture. Just because you have to work with the public doesn’t mean it’s going to be a dumpster fire. If you have supportive admin/director/manager, it can be extremely rewarding work. Keep in mind that public library worker salary ranges are generally posted on their websites (check policy pages, “about us” sections, etc), unlike private corporations–unless the public library is not tax dollar funded.
      As for academic librarianship–the jobs are often fewer and farther between, and you might need to travel to find the right kind of position for you. State universities and community college libraries are in better shape nationally right now than private universities, as a general rule. Downsides? In academic librarianship, it absolutely depends on your current presidential administration and how they view libraries’ value proposition on whether you have a good salary, good benefits, or a functioning operating budget. So for those interviews, I’d ask about work culture and opportunities for advancement.

      1. Anon for this*

        Thank you very much! That’s a great tip about publicly posted salary ranges, and thank you for the suggested interview questions–super helpful.

    4. Alice*

      I switched from a non-librarian corporate job to an academic librarian job. Some thoughts:

      The timetables in academic librarianship for everything are super long. There’s a new job in my library that was approved three weeks ago (after having been discused with various stakeholders since October) and it still hasn’t been posted. I woul be astounded if the position is filled before Thanksgiving. I can only hope things happen faster in the corprate world ;)

      Ask about raises and promotions as well as the starting salary. I was very surprised to learn that 2-3% “merit” raises are all we get in non-promotion years – there is no COLA. I don’t know if I would have accepted my starting salary if I had known that; in my old industry, I got much bigger annual raises.

      Vocational awe is a Big Thing in academic libraries.

      There’s also a lot of learned helplessness. Even when we know what is causing problems for library users, we can’t fix it because we are locked in to vendor tools and platforms and infrastructure that extracts value instead of adding it.

      I do find it very rewarding towork with researchers and students. And I’m part of a huge library, so I can get very very good at my specialty without having to do other stuff (no tech services, no collection development, no access services – I don’t know how solo librarians do it!)

      Good luck on your transition!

      1. Anon for this*

        I can only hope things happen faster in the corprate world ;) Ha, if only. We’ve been trying to hire someone new for the last two years—management keeps stomping on our hopes and dreams.

        Thank you so much for your detailed comment. I find it kind of funny (and, as the song goes, I find it kind of sad) that some of the problems you are facing are nearly identical to the ones I’m facing: small annual raises, learned helplessness due to vendor contracts.

        Did you have to go through a grueling panel interview process? That’s honestly the one thing that’s always given me pause. I don’t have a research specialty or publishing record (other than fiction, haha) and doubt I’d be a competitive candidate.

        1. Alice*

          The interview process where I work is:
          Submit cover letter and resume or CV and fill out a kind of frustrating online application form
          First round interviw (now via Zoom, previously phone call) with the hiring committee (3-5 people including the manager). Maybe 45 minutes? Lots of behavioral questions.
          Three candidates will be invited to the second round interview (sequentially! Not a group scenario!). There’s a dinner the night before with 2-3 people. The day of, there’s a presentation (30 min including questions) and meetings with a bunch of people. I can see why the word grueling could be used but it’s not that bad IMO. At MPOW, it’s not just about the candidate wowing the interviewers, but also giving the candidate enough info about the org and environment, so that if they take the job they won’t be surprised by the working conditions. Interviews go two ways right?
          It’s not like the grad school scholarship interview I went to once, where the first question was ” so, why should we give YOU a scholarship instead of the other, excellent, applicants?” (With the pauses exactly as I wrote, LOL)

        2. Nocturna*

          Depending on the state, you might not even get raises every year at a public academic library. In my current job, the annual raises I’ve gotten have varied from none to 6.5% (the year we got both a COLA and a merit raise), with most years being in the 1-3% range.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      Okay, so having as a academic librarian for over a decade I think I can offer some insight (some of this might be useful, some of it less so). I am in the USA, so all this is USA based. Librarians at academic institutions can be staff or they can be faculty. Having been several of these, here’s my thoughts on downsides of each option…

      If you are faculty, you are either tenure-track, non-tenure track or promotion-track. All faculty have to serve on university committees, etc. Some people think this is an awful time suck. Some people think it really helps to have a librarian able to advocate for the library as peers to faculty, not staff. Your milage will vary.

      Tenure-track is traditional publish or perish- you meet your required research amounts in a certain number of years or you get fired. Rarely do tenure plans accommodate the whole “running a dang library” part of the job. So, keeping the job largely hinges on work which doesn’t actually have anything to do with the actual job. You can be a great librarian, but if you aren’t also able to meet your publication requirements, you will be fired. For some people, this is a huge downside. Not all places are this strict, but some are and it’s hard to know from the outside. (When you interview for one of these, ask for the tenure and promotion documents- they will give them to you and they are your guide to how this works.)

      Non-Tenure track faculty have all the committee work of tenure-track, but don’t have to publish, maybe on a temporary contract, and might make less money, depending on the institution. I have some non-tenure track faculty librarian colleagues and they love it, so it’s critical to know that this isn’t “worse” than tenure-track automatically, but it is less prestigious, generally.

      Promotion-track is similar to tenure track, but going up for review is optional and not required. At some places, going up for promotion is the only way to get a raise, however. Failing promotion means you may or may not be out of a job. Depends on the place. (There should also be promotion documents for these. Get copies.)

      Staff librarians don’t have to deal with promotion or tenure or University-wide committees, but generally, staff at Unis are less well paid than faculty. Additionally, at a lot of places, there’s a big faculty-staff divide. So, if you are staff, you sometimes spend a lot of time justifying that you are, in fact, a terminal degree holder and you do, in fact, know how to do your job.

      Other than all that mess, there are some places where conservatives are off their gourds trying to ban books, budget cuts and dealing with donors, who can carry more sway than you would like. Plus, you have to deal with the politics of the university, which can be messy as heck. There’s nuances as well between public and private institutions. However, I absolutely love what I do. I think I have the best job in the world and I am super happy working in higher ed.

      1. Anon for this*

        This is so helpful! Thank you so much for breaking down the different tracks. Fear about publish-or-perish is what sent me running to corporate after I graduated with my MLIS ten years ago, and that fear has not diminished…

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          I was very afraid of publish or perish when I started. My first gig was a promotion-track style place where the requirement was 1 article in seven years. And honestly, that was do-able. Then I moved into a staff position which I enjoyed; however, I’ve realized for my own CV I need to get more publications on there, so I agreed to be promoted into a traditional tenure-track gig so I had some actual research time built into my day. Anyway, I wouldn’t let that hold you back if you really are interested in the academic side of the profession.

        2. Nocturna*

          Exactly how publish-or-perish faculty librarianship is will depend on the specific library. Where I am, the publications element is fairly loose–presenting posters or sessions at conferences will count, as well as the more traditional journal articles or book chapters–and the primary factor for tenure is excellence in regular job duties.

          One way to get at it, aside from asking for the tenure/promotion guidelines, is to ask about tenure failure rates and what support they provide to pre-tenure librarians.

    6. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      When I moved from corporate to academia (back in the dark ages), the biggest change was doing the mental switch from “gathering and synthesizing the information needed” to “teaching the person how to find/use the information needed”

    7. Lucy Librarian*

      I’m an academic librarian. The hours would depend on the type of position. We don’t have too many librarian positions that work nights or weekends now, and there are less public-facing positions depending again on your role. I work with the campus community but I’m not on call or at a service desk.
      I’m at a private university but still have budget woes because the library does not make money. Some academic librarians have faculty status which would require presentations and publications, while others are classified as staff. I’ve been both and both have pros/cons. In many ways working here feels similar to working at a company — hierarchy, pretty standard 9-5 type hours.

    8. not nice, don't care*

      I know someone who went from back office classified staff to tenure track librarian and had a horrific experience the first few years. Culture shock and the pissing contests between faculty, mostly.
      I’ve found that younger/newer/female librarians tend to pull double the weight of other librarians (who almost never interact with students or even leave their offices).

  36. DisneyChannelThis*

    How much should I disclose a dying relative situation at work? Relative had a stroke, end is likely near but unclear timeline weeks likely. Its affecting my focus but I also don’t feel like having the conversation about it 40 times at work. Is there a shibboleth for give me more grace right now I’m trying my best while emotionally compromised?

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      “I have a family situation that will eventually require me to take some leave time.” I think this kind of gets the point across without being too specific.

      1. just here for the scripts*

        I like this, but I would likely amend it to say “a family health situation…”

        And — depending on my relationship with the manager, I’d probably say something about how this is also impacting my ability to focus. But I’d rather be working than not right now.

      2. Alice*

        You might also want to communicate whether you welcome questions/commiseration, or if you want not to talk about it at work.
        I’m sorry for your loss.

    2. Hyaline*

      Kind of depends to whom and in what context, but overall–you don’t need to tell anyone, but telling certain key people in your team might make your life easier. I might consider giving your direct manager and/or people with whom you work regularly a heads up that “I’m dealing with a family health situation, so I will likely be taking some time away in the coming weeks or months. And if I seem a little off, please understand that I would rather not discuss it.” I’m so sorry for you and your family!

    3. goddessoftransitory*

      I’ve had this situation, sadly, and basically told my manager “Look, it’s bad and unfortunately there’s not a real timeline–I may have to buy plane tickets and move pretty quickly. I’m giving you a heads up now and will obviously keep you updated.” Luckily I work for a great place and no one gave me a hard time at all.

    4. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I usually only raise this sort of thing with my boss or team lead directly – “hey, just wanted to let you know that I have some personal stuff going on that’s taking a lot of focus. I will do my best to keep it from affecting work, but I know I’m not bringing my A-game right now, so I wanted to give you a heads up.”

      And then, like, if it comes up naturally with colleagues that’s fine, but if it doesn’t that’s fine too.

    5. kalli*

      I just email my direct manager and go like ‘so there’s a family emergency right now’ and ‘this is what I need’ whether it’s moving my hours or I’m not focused so I’m taking extra breaks and will still work the same total time, or ‘my camera’s off because my dad will wander in at any moment’ or whatever. Nobody else needs to know, and my manager only needs to know what they need to know about my work, not the whole deal.

      The thing with these is that the doctors might be saying weeks and it could be days, or they might say hours and it could be weeks, so when you’re telling your manager ideally I’d recommend including what your plans are, especially if you need to travel. If you have limited time off or the relative isn’t close enough to be included in default bereavement leave policies, then ‘I need to save my leave so I can attend the funeral’ or ‘they’re in Milwaukee and I could get the call at any moment so I might not be best to start a new project right now’ kind of thing, and that gives people a sense also of if you’re there nothing’s changed so no point asking.

  37. Dragonfruit*

    Graduating MPA looking for advice from other public sector professionals about how to job search, what the market is like, the pros and cons of temping in the meantime and how to do that.

    I am FINALLY graduating (yay!!) and have been on the lookout since January for a job. My public sector area is going through a budget crunch in 202/2026, so I knew if I wanted a job I might have to overlap with my final quarter. That’s great – except I keep getting to the final rounds of things and NOT getting a job! I’m mostly sticking to jobs in my preferred sector (housing policy/development) or with skills I already have (marketing, customer service, community outreach, fundraising/planning work). Any advice for a newly graduating student with 5-7 years job experience trying to break through in the market?

    Also, a colleague at my internship told me that after they graduated, they had to rely on temping for a bit. I think this could be useful to get law/contracting/financial skills I’m otherwise weaker on, but it’s not my first choice or my ideal choice. For those who have done temping post-degree, how did you find a good agency? What kind of placements did you get, and did you have any choice in them? When and how did you move on afterwards?

    1. M2*

      Does your program have networking events? Alumni you might contact for informational interviews? Start there. See if they can connect you to anyone who works in the sector you want to break into. Contact career services and alumni engagement and see if they have any ideas/ events you might attend. Networking is huge in getting through for popular roles.

      Also, diversify your applications. I mean apply to entry level and those with 5-7 years experience too. I switched careers and had to take a couple steps down in my new career since I didn’t have that exact experience. It’s ok! You work hard and continue to grow and move up.

      Unless you are tied to your current area maybe look outside your exact area. Or look for temping or another internship at an organization that is known to hire from this positions. Ask around.

      I have a relative who is looking for an internship for next year but internships in the major cities are so hard so I told them to also apply to smaller cities and area and he got an internship at the same firm but in a smaller region (less competition). A little different since he was doing finance, but same idea.

      1. Dragonfruit*

        I appreciate this, but it’s all stuff I’m already doing. I’ve been networking hard at my internship and at job fairs and other student resources, still no dice. I’ve been applying to jobs since January, get VERY far (usually top 3 contenders), but still don’t get the job. I think my strategies aren’t flawed here and I’m trying my hardest, but the market just sucks overall.

        That’s why I’m looking into temping, because it’s at least SOME pay and experience while I continue to search for a job I want to be doing. Any advice would be useful.

    2. Zona the Great*

      This is my degree. I also had similar years of experience by the time I graduated. I still decided to take a 9-10 month internship in a state agency representing my corner of public administration (public transportation). I believe this is what thrusted me into my happy career. I never felt like I had to start over but I did feel I had to get some different exposure to round out my experience. I got my first post-grad school as I finished up my internship. I’m now about 8 years out from that and am in such an amazing position. I am so grateful to past Zona the Great for getting my MPA.

      1. BikeWalkBarb*

        MPA holder here working in a state agency. +1 to applying for internships. They can go on for long enough both to build your portfolio of examples and experience and for you to get networked into the agency and hear about openings there and in partner agencies.

        Are you also looking at the nonprofit sector?

        Are you confining yourself to the housing sector? I know that’s your area of interest but I also work in transportation and came here to suggest you consider it. An understanding of the interactions between housing costs and access to a variety of transportation modes would enrich what you bring to the policy questions.

        Given the skills you have you can also look at jobs in the planning department. Lots of need for community engagement and good public-facing communication skills in jobs that aren’t directly all urban planning.

    3. Milton's Red Swingline Stapler*

      I’ve worked for agencies in a major city government and for a small state government and the common experience was that the hiring process took way longer than any private job I’ve had — like we’re talking multiple months. Both were situations where the agency had its own HR department, but was also subject to approval from an overarching HR department that served the entire city/state government. Both times the agency HR approval was straightforward and timely, but the “Big HR” approval took forever.

      Also, if the jurisdiction you’re looking to work for has civil service exams, take all the open exams for any positions you would potentially be interested in and qualified for. That will get you on the lists, and that can often be the best way in because for a lot of positions they have to go to the people who are on the civil service list first before going to external candidates.

      Good luck!

  38. Roxie*

    My company is trying to create new values (we’re re-branding). I’ve volunteered to be on a round table to discuss values and what I think “Dunder Mifflin” brings to the table.

    Dunder Mifflin quite sucks actually. There are deep seated pockets of dysfunction and bad upper management lets bad employees fester. I’m thinking of it as painting new paint over a wall with mold and water damage.

    (1) Do you think changing company values will actually change anything?
    (2) How do I even play this?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      90% of the time, company values are about marketing and image, not actionable day-to-day policies. The fact that this is being done as part of re-branding is evidence of that.

      So if you set low expectations, you won’t be disappointed. Treat this mostly as a marketing exercise, not anything that will change the nitty-gritty of how you work.

    2. Generic Name*

      See if you can see everything with bemused detachment? My last company’s culture was such that they thought they were soooo unique. The founder’s attitude seemed to be shaped by her hatred for anything “corporate”. So as the company grew, they went through a mission/vision process. Had town halls, etc. The company crafted some statement that reflected their “unique” culture and contribution. So when I left that company and started working at a positively GIANT company, I was confronted with the fact that much of the corporate branding/mission/vision is NEARLY IDENTICAL to the small company with the “uniquely anti-corporate culture”. As in my old company had a saying that they kept in writing on a whiteboard in their main conference room. At my new company, there is a giant wall mural with a quote from a past CEO saying basically the same thing. When I saw it I laughed and laughed to myself. So much for uniqueness.

      As for how to get through this, look at like 5 big company’s mission and vision, and write the words down, and when asked for ideas, pull one out randomly. I wouldn’t waste any brain power coming up with something from scratch.

      1. A Significant Tree*

        I had the same laughing-to-myself reaction when I returned to a company as a boomerang employee, and the new employee orientation made a huge deal of the newly released Company Values. If you threatened me with stepping on Legos forever, I could not have told you the difference between the shiny new Company Values and whatever bunch of Values the company had previously.

        Be prepared that people will be unreasonably passionate about specific words when it comes to writing a mission statement or selecting the adjectives (or nouns, or both) to represent the values. I’d come with a list of synonyms to contribute and otherwise stand aside and watch the inevitable debates. I have been told that a great mission statement makes a difference, and maybe it does, but I personally have never seen it. Also, it is mandatory that one of the Values is “Integrity” – that’s just required.

    3. SansaStark*

      1) I mean, probably not and I’d keep my expectations on the floor for this.

      2) Is there any way to align this project/your role to something that would be great for your resume/cover letter? That’s how I’d keep myself sane – focusing on how this project can help me in the long run and less on the actual (questionable) objective.

    4. DunderMifflin*

      Man this resonates. My Dunder Mifflin is trying to change directions, too, and everyone here is burnt out and tired of digging deeper. We’ve had so many plans and vision statements, and nothing has changed. The values won’t mean anything if the work continues to not uphold them.

    5. not nice, don't care*

      The value I’ve found from being on groups like this is having the group on my CV and getting face time with the people who think mission statements are meaningful (administration and their lackeys). In deliverables I try to get language in that even obliquely references the problems, in the way that etiquette books show what people are actually doing more than stopping people from doing it.

  39. Stuff*

    I want to clarify that “she isn’t even making the slightest effort to conceal her actions” comment. It wouldn’t make it any better if she was trying to hide it, but the reason that stands out to me is, she has had two severe disciplinary actions for the same thing before, and has been threatened with termination. Her lack of effort to even pretend she isn’t still doing the same thing tells me she isn’t afraid of the consequences, and probably doesn’t think I’m going to take action (I’m her former coworker and have not been a manager very long). It comes across to me as an attitude of thinking she’s impervious to the rules.

    1. Stuff*

      Nesting fail. This is about an employee I’m firing that I mentioned some posts above. She’s blatantly committing a major rules violation and not even bothering to hide it from me, and she’s been threatened with firing over the same thing by two prior managers. It’s like she thinks she’s going to keep getting away with it, because she probably perceives that she has, since prior threats weren’t ever carried out.

      1. MsM*

        I think that’s exactly right: there haven’t been any consequences for it up to this point, so she’s not expecting this time to be any different. I’m sorry you’re stuck with cleaning up the mess, but I don’t think you should lose any sleep over it.

      2. Tio*

        Also possible she thinks you won’t know about the other two times and assume that it’s a first time violation. Plenty of people have gotten away with things due to bad communication with turnover.

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        Well, she can think whatever she wants. What it comes down to is–her former managers didn’t do her any favors letting her think so, and you aren’t doing yourself or her fellow employees watching this human oil slick ooze around any favors if you ignore it, so…she’s fired.

        Whatever ranting or pouting or whatever she wants to do is on her.

    2. WellRed*

      Eh if she was trying to hide at least it would seem like she cares about not blatantly disrespecting and disregarding the rules. Nothing like thumbing your nose at your company to show you don’t give a flying fk.

  40. Busy Middle Manager*

    Anyone else in the middle ranks of corporate America, completely overwhelmed. I don’t know which thing to do first.

    I work with some junior people with 5-10 years experience and they ask for projects and growth but they just don’t do well on many of the projects. We just had a status call on two and one of them yet again can’t answer basic questions on their part.

    I feel like corporate roles are changing with automation, people need to be able to document processes and troubleshoot, I am starting to feel, after multiple situations, that many people aren’t going to last very long in that sort of role. I know I personally can’t train people how to think in a thousand different situations.

    Then I had another incident with an Admin who pushes back against a task that is inconvenient but clearly in their job. I think they’re tired of doing the grunt work, but they push back against self-learning and any sort of training, so what else can you give them?

    I’m wasting too much time and energy trying to get basic stuff to happen, then upper management thinks I am working on larger-scale projects and wants results from me. But I can’t finish them because I am having trouble delegating stuff downwards or sideways.

    It’s just too much, feeling like I’m getting it from all sides. I know this post may make me look unsympathetic, so to give an example:

    I found out an Analyst spent half a day researching why a few addresses were wrong. I figured it out in two minutes. There are three data feeds and we’re using the wrong one and it never came up because addresses are mostly the same in the three places. So how do I train on this? Also they’re confused about what the fix is. Well, find out who is in control of the field and ask them, and they’ll probably want you to enter a change-request ticket. Like the last 100 similar things.

    1. PotatoRock*

      Are these people you manage officially, or is it more “junior colleague who is supposed to be ‘helping'”?

      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        I left management last year so it’s people on my former team and also people never on my team. You actually highlighted a problem using the word help in quotes! I’ve heard that here before. No, you are not “helping” me by doing work, you’re doing your work and helping the company exist! Maybe thats a sub-issue where if people see I did something once it’s now “my job” even if it doesn’t fit at all

    2. Excel Jedi*

      > I found out an Analyst spent half a day researching why a few addresses were wrong. I figured it out in two minutes. There are three data feeds and we’re using the wrong one and it never came up because addresses are mostly the same in the three places.

      Honestly, things like this sometimes just take time to figure out. I’ve been an analyst for well over a decade, and I’d probably get this in a couple of minutes because it’s one of the first things I’d check – as long as I knew there were multiple feeds to look at. But that takes time, familiarity with your systems, etc.

      It might be worthwhile to work with them on breaking down big problems into small steps. They’re looking at bigger issues and probably getting overwhelmed, or not recognizing patterns….but if they started with asking questions like, “where does this data come from?” “who owns this data?” and “what steps do we need to take to clean this data now?” “what would it take for this data to come in clean going forward?” – things analysts with more experience think through automatically – they’ll eventually learn to think through those things automatically.

    3. Janie*

      Like Excel Jedi said, some of this just takes time to figure out. Some of it is the challenge of “knowing what you don’t know.”

      In this case, I might schedule a 15-30 min call to do a post-mortem and walk them through how I figured out the problem. Share my screen and show them. Tell them why I checked what I checked. Have them take notes.

      In the future too, I wouldn’t just solve the problem myself. I would hop on a call and ask the analyst questions that help them think through the problem on their own.

      Also, in general, for training people on how to figure out problems and make judgement calls: I find shadowing and reverse shadowing are helpful for this.

    4. RM*

      Do you know if some of these people came from small or under resourced companies? I could see myself getting stuck on a problem like this because there was just no help. It wasn’t enough to identify a problem. You had to solve it and that would typically mean getting stuck at certain points deep in the documentation or vendor help desk calls. Or just getting to a point like if X, A but if Y, B. If you can’t find an answer to X vs Y that is your freaking problem and you are just stuck.

  41. Lizzianna*

    I’m really curious what this group thinks of a “debate” happening in our leadership group right now.

    Is it unprofessional to be on a video call from your backyard? I’m not talking about a formal meeting/presentation, just a small internal check in or an impromptu call. We have a real “cameras on” culture, but we’re very casual, so it’s a real “dress for your day.” It’s not unusual for people to have t-shirts and hoodies on days they’re at home, and as long as you’re not meeting with our senior leadership or external partners, no one cares.

    One of my colleagues is insisting it’s unprofessional, I think it doesn’t matter. Now that the weather is getting nice, I’ve set up on my back porch a couple of times. My backdrop is just a blank wall on the outside of my house, you can’t see my pool or garden from the angle I’m sitting but it’s obvious I’m outside. (And I live in a hot climate, so a pool is pretty common in many middle-class homes here, so even if you could see my pool, it won’t read as wildly out of touch like it would in some other regions).

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      The only problem I have with it is jealousy. I can’t take meetings from outside (too many monitors) but I certainly would if I could. And it’s natural to want to be outdoors once the weather is nice.

      Again, the questions that matter are “Is the work getting done?” and “Is there a rule against this?”. If the answers are yes and no respectively, I think it’s fine.

    2. Wordnerd*

      Yeah, I really can’t imagine what “unprofessional” could mean in this context, especially when you’re just on a porch and not literally in a pool or on a deck chair. I suppose as long as there’s not noise issues (e.g., super windy or dogs barking), I wouldn’t have a problem with it. I had a project manager who consistently did her video meetings from her screened in porch, and that was just her home office of choice. (Do you need to wear sunglasses to be comfortable? I guess that’s one other thing that could skew too casual?)
      But for argument’s sake, can you just blur your background? It sounds like your background is bland anyway, though. I think your colleague is maybe just envious that they don’t have a nice outside space to work.

    3. RagingADHD*

      No. As long as you’re dressed appropriately for your work culture and the background isn’t noisy or overly distracting, it’s fine. I’ve seen quite a lot of people take work calls from their deck or patio. If there were dogs barking or neighbors with leaf blowers, of course that would be a sign to go back inside.

    4. CTT*

      For me it would be less about “professional” and more that it has the risk of being distracting. Someone in front of a blank wall outside is akin to a lot of WFH setups but with more variable lighting, but a clearly outdoorsy background is more distracting to me because things are moving behind the person, either trees and plants moving because of wind or there are birds/squirrels going by in the background. My eyes are going to track that movement unless there are so many people on that the person is in a really tiny box.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      I don’t think it’s unprofessional at all! As long as you can be heard clearly on camera I don’t see the issue.

      …but if you get enough grief can you put up a fake/blurred background? As long as it isn’t windy it shouldn’t be too noticeable.

    6. Busy Middle Manager*

      Not unprofessional. You know what I hate (though I am not sure “unprofessional” is the word) – presenting to a bunch of muted boxes on teams with no faces. At least your people are engaging in the call by being cameras-on

      1. ForestHag*

        As much as I hate being on camera, that can be really frustrating and kind of unnerving to be talking to a bunch of boxes. I can see turning off cameras when there’s a slide deck or screen share, but when it’s just conversation, I’d rather do all or nothing, so if someone has their camera on, I will turn on mine as well. I had to give a presentation once where I was the only one on camera, and it included some humor and audience questions, and NO ONE said anything THE ENTIRE TIME, and just stayed silent. It was embarrassing.

      2. Mad Harry Crewe*

        My boss was finally like ‘hey guys it’s really doing a number on my mental health that I’m just talking to a bunch of icons all the time. This is not mandatory but… could you all consider turning cameras on at least a bit of the time?’

        And honestly, he’s not wrong, it is nicer to see human faces more of the time.

    7. Decidedly Me*

      I wouldn’t do it on a customer meeting, but internally? Not unprofessional! I’m pretty sure all my managers (including skip level) have been outside and on camera for at least a few meetings a year, usually more. My climate and set up is less conducive for it, but I’ve done some myself when in different locations where it made sense.

    8. Elsewise*

      I don’t think it’s at all unprofessional, especially given your company culture. The only time I’d see it as unprofessional, aside from what others have mentioned of distractions, is if you live in a high-traffic area where neighbors are likely to be walking by close enough to see or hear the meeting. That’s a big part of why I don’t work outside much, because I live in an apartment building and on the ground floor, so anytime I’m sitting on the patio there’s likely to be someone walking by pretty near and often stopping to say hi. I’ll work outside if it’s nice and I can tolerate a brief distraction, but I don’t take meetings outside for that reason. That said, coworkers who have private backyards do it all the time and I don’t see a problem with it.

    9. anon_sighing*

      I can’t even give advice because I cannot imagine caring. Is it interfering with mic or camera quality? If not, then really, what is unprofessional about it? You’re already all at home…do they want WFH revoked?

    10. tabloidtained*

      In my book/at my workplace, not at all. My boss has been in his backyard during a few of our meetings. A coworker took a meeting from the park near his apartment. I think it’s lovely.

    11. fhqwhgads*

      A medium-high person in my company joins almost all check-ins from his back porch all summer every year. Has for years. As long as there aren’t outdoor-specific noise issues one would be able to anticipate and know to avoid, nothing unprofessional about it.

    12. Rusty Shackelford*

      One person I work with does this poorly – he’s backlit so you can’t see his face, when it’s windy you hear all of that noise, etc. But if you’re visible and there are no noise issues, I think it’s perfectly fine.

    13. ForestHag*

      For the type of call you are describing, I don’t think it’s unprofessional. If you were doing an important presentation or talking with external partners or something, then I would not sit in the backyard, but that’s just because there’s an increased chance of environmental noises that might distract from your presentation.

      FWIW, I quite like seeing nature or people’s yards or whatever during informal meetings.

    14. EA*

      I don’t think it’s a problem for internal calls, but I’d just use a virtual background to be safe.

  42. Annoyed*

    Just a mild vent…misogyny runs deep in women.

    I’m a woman. I became the General Manager of a small-town media company a little under a year ago (I have worked here for more than two decades and took over when the old male GM retired). Profits are up across the board. The product has never been better. Morale is high, and the staff is happy. The owners are pleased. By all accounts, I’m doing a great job. But four times during the past year I have had women in the community question or complain the way I have handled something.

    This has included: “You aren’t playing my daughter’s song.” (We play country music – the daughter does not country music).
    “You aren’t covering my daughter’s trials enough.” (The daughter is an Assistant District Attorney)
    “You aren’t sharing our school’s social media posts as much as you are sharing other school district’s posts. (From the superintendent of one of the five school districts we cover)
    “You didn’t post my picture on your social media.” (seriously)

    I called the old GM, whom I consider my mentor, and he confirmed he did not receive complaints of this nature. Men never do this. I get, “Y’all sound great!” “You are doing a great job!” “I love everything you are doing!” But I can not seem to do it right for some of the women in our community. I can’t help but think they would not pick up the phone and question a man like they question me.

    1. WellRed*

      Just keep doing what you’re doing! Once they realize you aren’t going to kowtow to them plus you show by doing that you know what you are doing, some of this will die down. I also think this is a bit more of a small town thing.

      1. Annoyed*

        It’s definitely a small-town thing. My husband is a Judge, and the complaint about not covering the ADA daughter’s trials enough is absolutely a personal thing. But the mother called the owner about that one. Luckily, our owner could see it was personal.

    2. Jenny*

      You’re right that misogyny runs deep overall and with women.

      But 4 complaints in a year? Sure they were stupid complaints that you should ignore. But if it would help, try twisting it around and being happy you’ve only had 4.

    3. spcepickle*

      Disclaimer: I am a 40 something women manager.

      I bet you money your old GM did get complaints and he just didn’t notice. As women we are trained to be sensitive to others needs. You know you are doing a good job, you know these people are complaining about stupid things, and yet you are taking it in as a reflection of you. They are not, they are showing a) that complaining is way easier then it use to be (no need to post a letter anymore) b) people as a whole are more compliney (I work road construction – people have feelings, trust me people complain WAY more publicly then they did 10 years ago) c) you are holding on to things that should have rolled off you the moment they crossed your desk.
      For real, just drop them, these comments should in no way affect how you see yourself or how you do your job. Keep showing up and showing that women rock leadership!

      1. TechWorker*

        Right, I feel like these sort of complaints you can happily file under ‘unreasonable people being unreasonable’, roll your eyes & put them out of your mind.

    4. JulieM*

      Could it be that these women wanted to complain (or would’ve wanted to) when a man was in charge, but didn’t because they feel more comfortable reaching out to another woman? Or maybe that they feel another woman is more likely to care?

  43. Twitchy Eyelid*

    I am applying to an events-related job at a large university — my alma mater — with many colleges and departments. I have plenty of relevant events experience through my current job, and I know someone who might be involved in hiring for this position, or at least knows the hiring manager.

    The same university has posted a separate job listing in a different department for someone with great writing skills, which I also have — though with less direct experience in using those skills on the job. Job #2 might be a bit of reach, but I worked in the relevant department (and excelled at it!) during all four years that I studied at this university.

    Given the large size of the organization and the fact that I have relevant skills in both areas, what do we think: would it be a strike against my candidacy if I apply for both jobs at the same time? Job #2 would be more appealing to me if I could somehow, miraculously, beat out the competition for it, but maybe it would be better to solely apply for Job #1, which I have a more realistic chance of getting. I don’t want to shoot myself in the foot here.

    1. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Go for both! I’d say to choose one if the jobs were in the same department of the same school, but at a huge university it’s very unlikely anyone will realize you applied to more than one job. (Source: I applied to about one million jobs at a large university, interviewed for many, got one–now that I’m here, I confirmed my gut instinct that the only way someone would be aware I was applying so widely would be if I goofed and applied to two jobs in the same department.)

      1. Twitchy Eyelid*

        Thanks for sharing your experience and confirming my hunch. Glad it worked out for you!

    2. kbeers0su*

      Should not be an issue at all. It’s unlikely that anyone would even know, other than whoever processes stuff in the back rooms of HR. (And I’ve also done this- applied to multiple positions at the same university and gotten interviews for them, and neither committee knew anything about the other one.)

      1. Twitchy Eyelid*

        Thank you! I figured as much. I have great connections at Gargantuan University, but…it’s gargantuan!

      2. Hyaline*

        This–if the person processing is even a person and not an automated routing system!

    3. Pam Adams*

      Go for it. This is common at universities with multiple departments doing similar things.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Well, this might speak poorly of higher ed, but I’d be shocked if anyone even notices you applied for two jobs in two different departments. Unis just aren’t that organized across departments. Go for it.

    5. Blue Pen*

      No strike at all. The only strike might come from applying for jobs that are exponentially outside your experience level. I work for a large university, and I can assure you that this will not backfire against you. If this university is anything like mine, applying for jobs here (whether you’re external or internal) is a numbers game at the end of the day; across different departments, I’ve been rejected for positions that were more junior while being offered different positions that were much more senior in nature.

      Apply, apply, apply, and then apply there some more.

  44. Jennifer T*

    New manager here (18 months), and we’re interviewing for a PT skilled position. Applicant had an interview scheduled for 3 pm; she emailed at 1:30 asking where we were meeting (confounding to myself and my director, since it’s for an on-site position, with only a single location). Director and I were in another interview and didn’t see the email until nearly 3 pm. Applicant never showed or called or even apologized for (in my eyes) completely blowing us off. I’m of a mind to ditch them entirely; director is giving them another chance. This is for a highly independent position where it’s essential for them to show up on time. Am I being too harsh? What else should I be looking for in the interview?

    1. Lizzianna*

      Did the interview invite include a location or address? I would go back at the communications with the applicant to see if you were clear about interview logistics, or just assumed she would know it was in person at your office.

      If you weren’t clear, I would note it, but probably offer to reschedule, if it was clear, I’d move on. And either way, I’d note the lack of follow up and weigh it when deciding whether to hire her.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Yes, this is where I fall too. I have had phone and virtual interviews for in-person jobs, so if the address wasn’t specifically included in the invite I would give the candidate a bit of grace.

      2. Decidedly Me*

        I fall here, too. If you weren’t clear – then give her another chance.

        1. PotatoRock*

          Me too – even for an on-site, local job, so many roles do virtual interviews, so I would assume she looked at the email to confirm the details, realized she didn’t know what kind of interview it was, tried to get clarification, and was waiting for your answer – just reschedule with her, and clarify in person at your office

          1. JustaTech*

            And also, check your listing on Google maps and Apple maps – I had a coworker who very nearly missed her on-site interview with us because Google maps still had our old location – thankfully she double-checked the email!

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’m more inclined to agree with you; if this is how they act when they’re trying to make a good impression, how much worse will things be once they get comfortable in the role?

      1. Bruce*

        Flashing back to when I was a teen, I had to drive 20 miles to an interview with the East Bay Regional Parks… I took the wrong ramp at the MacArthur Maze in Oakland and did not arrive until 20 minutes after the interview was scheduled. The committee was not amused, and I did not get the job. (this was before cell phones and way before GPS on smart phones)

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      Most my first round interviews have been zoom. Even if a job’s onsite, the candidate might be moving to the area or other complications. I can see emailing day of to confirm zoom vs in person. Especially if there was an issue with no interview location in the wording.

    4. Kesnit*

      How easy is it for someone to find your location if they aren’t familiar with the area? About 10 years ago, I had an interview with a small office on the other side of the state from where I lived. Office was on a main street in the city, but the building was not well marked. My wife (who drove with me) and I went past the building twice before finally pulling into a parking lot and calling to ask what the building looked like. We had the address and GPS, but the office was on the second floor of a building that did not look like an office building.

      1. Not*

        I had one where they said to come in the door next to where the green pickup is parked. Well, the green pickup was next to a door that required a key-card (where of course I couldn’t get in). I drove around the building again and parked in front and asked for the manager I wanted. The admin came up and took me back, but the first thing the manager did was point me out the glass doors at the back of the building where his office was, to the light green and White pickup. (Implying that I was stupid to have missed it.)

    5. anon_sighing*

      > since it’s for an on-site position, with only a single location

      But *where* is the place you were supposed to meet? Unless it’s a tiny office, you’ve said “just show up at the Building” rather than give them a room – they might have thought you were blowing them off and disorganized. If you have them detailed information, then I guess I’d interview them anyway like the director wants but I’d try to pay attention to their demeanor.

    6. kalli*

      I’ve had interviews at single-location businesses where the interview was held off-site so that everyone’s work wasn’t impeded by a parade of people in and out, either a hired meeting room or a coffee shop. I wouldn’t assume that an interview was specifically at a particular location even if I was very sure it wasn’t by video call, and if I haven’t received an email or invite that’s specifically like ‘go to 75 Main Road, 1st floor, and you’re meeting with Dave and Jane’ I would be asking and I wouldn’t be going anywhere until I found out, and I’d be right by my email checking for a response or a video call invite.

      Did anyone write back to her when you saw the email? Because if she asked for a location and you haven’t written back, she hasn’t blown you off, you’ve blown her off.

  45. StinkyCyclist*

    Not a question, more of a rant… I recently bought a bicycle (haven’t had one in years) and started biking to work. My commute is 20 minutes whether I drive or ride and this way I get some exercise and fresh air, avoid sitting in traffic, reduce my carbon emissions and save on gas. Win, win, win, win, win. My office building has a big sign in the lobby boasting that it has “showers for employees to make cycling to work more accessible and convenient”. Today I asked where the showers are because I’ve never noticed them before and was told they’re only in the men’s washrooms (I’m a woman). Maybe I could ask to use them anyway but I’m not sure I’m comfortable with that, especially because we share washrooms with all the other businesses in the building. I’ll probably just continue to make do with a change of clothes and baby wipes/dry shampoo to freshen up but I’m really annoyed.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      That’s disappointing :(

      Is there a facilities person (or maybe a “Green Committee” or similar) at your work you could talk to about adding in women’s showers as part of promoting cycling to work? Definitely not a short-term fix, but one your company should invest in if it’s serious about making “cycling to work more accessible and convenient”!

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      My jaw just dropped. This is 100% not OK. Please bring it up to HR.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        My more detailed suggestion is that if certain facilities are currently only available to men, your employer should expect to provide them to women in some other way, eg paying for you to be able to use showers at a nearby gym.

      2. Paint N Drip*

        Fully agree – they are ADVERTISING the benefit, and it isn’t available to (presumably) half their staff? Not acceptable

      3. Bruce*

        Agreed. This is not cool. You may not be able to fix it but they should be embarrassed.

        1. Bruce*

          And congrats on bike commuting, I did it for years when I was able to make it work… sadly it became unfeasible when my company was acquired and we were moved to a much more distant office. I was a real John Forester “Effective Cycling” geek, I had some close calls but never an accident. Be careful and wary.

    3. Alex*

      Wow! That’s super not OK! I get that that’s not an easy overnight fix but that’s not an equitable situation.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        It kinda could be an overnight fix? It sounds like the showers are in the men’s washrooms, plural. So take one set of gendered washrooms and flip ’em. Yeah, there will probably suddenly be both showers and urinals in one ladies’ room, but as an interim fix, extremely doable.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Wow that’s super not ok. You are well within your rights to complain, they should be providing the same options for all staff. Advertising a benefit and then offering it only to men is not a good look.

  46. genuinelyconfused*

    I’m wondering if anyone has any experience with contract work in non-profit. It has come to light that there are three contract workers in our non-profit who are being paid more than program directors. They receive all of our work benefits (PTO, sick, medical, dental, and eye insurance) as well. Their contract is for 2 years and they are making much more than the highest paid director (minus the ED). A lot of us were shocked. For comparison, it’s like having a shift manager for a retail store making more than the district manager. Is this common? I know they’re only here for two years but to have them making substantially more money than any of the directors, let alone the director that oversees their program feels like a slap in the face. Our ED sees no problem with it. This is my first experience in non-profit so I’m just wondering if this is the norm and I’m being sensitive or if this is as wacky as I think it is.

    1. RagingADHD*

      It sounds pretty logical to me. If this is your first time recognizing how poorly nonprofits pay, it probably does feel like a slap in the face.

      Contractors demand market rate, and full time nonprofit workers tend to be drastically underpaid. The organization has to balance how urgently they need those contractors’ expertise with how much they can afford.

      The staff members could try to get together and ask for pay that is in line with the market, but they will probably need to be prepared to leave if they really want to earn what the work is worth.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Presumably they’re not getting all the fringes and deferred compensation that the regular full-time employees are getting. And-or the positions are grant-funded and therefore time-limited to the grant. Likely some other possibilities as well.

      Completely normal.

    3. M2*

      This happens a lot with grand funded programs. It also happens with certain specialists. I was a Country Director of a very large country team years ago. We got a large multi year grant for WASH and the WASH specialist who the donor wanted us to hire was paid almost more than me and more than the Deputy Director, Program Directors, etc. It was a large program and we needed an excellent specialist and it was also up to the donor government what they saw fit. The program was not meant as a long term program though so after 30 months it ended and this person had to find something else. There are pros and cons to everything.

      I was also paid more than some/many senior leadership at HQ because donors only have a small % to HQ. I directed the largest country portfolio in my organization at the time and got all the grants. I know some people at HQ didn’t like it, but hey I basically worked 6-7 days a week and that’s how it was. I have since left that sector.

    4. Paint N Drip*

      That doesn’t seem entirely engregious, Raging makes great points.
      But also can we assume that although they are receiving benefits, they are self-employed and thus responsible for their own taxes? That changes the math a LOT

      1. genuinelyconfused*

        What’s funny is that they’re not typical “contract workers”. They had no special experience for this job and had no formal training before. It is very basic work, you don’t need any special degree or prior training to have been hired for this. Also, they’re not technically self-employed. They are considered full-time employees of the company but are still “contract”. It’s super confusing, I know, but they receive every single benefit that all other staff receive.

    5. Person from the Resume*

      This does not sound right. Contractors are often paid more because they have to pay their own taxes and provide their own benefits. Contractors do not usually get the company’s perks and benefits.

      However since these are 2 year limited positions, you may be paying extra (and have to pay extra) for a qualified and quality employee who is agreeing to job with a defined and relatively soon end date. They’ll have to job hunt 2 years and they know it.

      But still this is odd.

    6. PotatoRock*

      Did your org look into hiring regular full time folks into these roles? and presumably decided that wouldn’t work or would be too expensive (or you need people fast, or you only have a time limited, grant funded role available, etc). That is what you are paying the contractors’ premium for.

    7. ItsTheBenefits*

      Contracting rates are typically set with expectations of not getting benefits. So they should pay more. It’s strange that they’re getting your benefits and that’s likely the disconnect. They probably provided their normal expected rate and then you tossed in the benefits on top of that.

      FWIW, my hourly rate as a contractor is typically $25/hr or more higher than I’d get as an employee. But that usually comes with no paid time off, insurance, etc – and often an expectation that I’d never or very, very rarely take unpaid time off.

    8. DefinitiveAnn*

      If the jobs are grant-funded, it could be based on the granting orgs requirements.

  47. Carrots*

    I’m working in a toxic environment and am applying to other jobs. I’m also going through a divorce and moved in with friends temporarily, but it’s further away from the jobs I’m applying to/the area I used to live in. However once things are settled, I plan to move closer to work. Should I tell them this in the interview? Or should I wait? I don’t want to not get the job because they think I live “too far away”. (It’s happened to me before.) But I don’t want them to think that I’ve lied either.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I don’t even have my address on my resume any more, specifically for this reason.

      If they make you fill out a job app and you have to put the address, that’s a different situation. You can always ask in the interview what the housing situation is like locally, adding that you would definitely move if you get the job. Make it a positive thing, not a negative thing.

      I’m sorry you’re in a couple of shitty situations right now. I hope everything works out for you.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Are you giving the location(s) of your current and previous jobs? If they’re in the same city as the positions you are currently applying to then you’re showing the employer you’re available to work where they are.

      I do not put my location on my CV. I do put the locations I would consider (I live rurally but within daily commuting distance of four cities).

    3. Twitchy Eyelid*

      You don’t have to go into detail about your personal situation, but I think you can tell potential employers you have a temporary living situation if it comes up, or if you’re currently far enough away that you think it’s necessary to volunteer it.

      “I usually live in [area A], but due to unforeseen circumstances, I have had to temporarily relocate to [area B] for a period of [x] months. I expect to be back in [area A] full-time by [approximate timeframe].”

      People temporarily relocate for all kinds of reasons, from needing to be close to a sick parent to having to repair their roof after a tree fell on it.

  48. Jane D. 789*

    This is just one example of many over an 11 month period.

    The leader of my team, boss’s boss, told a damaging lie about me to my immediate supervisor. It was performance related, about how I lead a meeting. He contacted one of the two other attendees, who is on the same organizational level as me, about my performance. She told me he asked and she told me what she said, which was not critical. She also told me that he exhibited anger as he walked away saying “l only told her to get the contract.” through clenched teeth. Another lie, I have a screenshot asking if he wanted to attend.

    HR is sitting on this. I feel this is something that needs to be addressed and is more serious than someone just being a jerk. I have the support of my immediate supervisor although they are close to retirement and not about to rock any boats for me. I emailed HR last week, three weeks after I first notified them, and they hadn’t started investigating.

    There is very much a gender issue at play. I’m trying to focus on the lie as I have screenshots and eyewitness proof of events. Any advice on communicating with HR to get started? Thank you so much.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ask your eyewitnesses to make written statements, complete with date and time, of what they observed. It’s much better to have that documented than to just say you have eyewitnesses. Plus it removes the “opportunity” for someone to claim it happened too long ago for verbal eyewitness accounts to be remembered and counted properly.

      I’m sorry this is happening.

      1. Jane D. 789*

        Thank you! I asked my coworker about this in Teams, I have that and plenty saved screenshots.

    2. WellRed*

      So some of this is second hand in this example? Overall, how egregious is his behavior? And is it A Lie or a miscommunication? I believe the guy has probably been a jerk to you, but this isn’t the example to make an example of. if you have a pattern if gender bias, lay it out definitively, otherwise i don’t see it as an HR issue, but a “your retiring boss sucks and isn’t going to change” (what better time to rock a few boats than when leaving?)” issue. Good luck!

      1. Jane D. 789*

        Definitely a lie. He was told “Jane did ‘xyz’ and we discussed this etc.” which he relayed as “she was all over the place” to my direct boss.

        I feel much of what he does to me is egregious, but I’m biased. Although him asking a male coworker to confirm information I emailed a screenshot of – on a crowded teams call with an outside vendor – after dramatically looking at the ceiling in thought for 5 minutes, is indisputably egregious imo.

        Ooh the frustration is coming to the surface! Thank you. I need to put my documentation together.

  49. Lady_Lessa*

    This is mainly a rant. I work in the chemical industry where we have to do safety training annually. (Good thing) We are now owned by a larger company (based elsewhere) and they are now providing the training (again good) Last year’s series of on-line videos’ good.

    This year: SAME videos we did last year. (Ugh) And they are designed so that you can’t skip to the final quiz and pass it again.

    I don’t have a problem with covering the same material, after all how many ways can the use of fire extinguishers be taught, but the identical ones. (I’m not sure if anyone is happy about it)

    Rant over, but if others have similar tales, I’m willing to listen.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’m confused, are you expecting the training materials to change every single year even if nothing about content has changed? I can see how if guidance around Chemical X has changed since last year they’d need to re-do the videos, but I don’t think I’d ever expect a company to change the videos unless they were outdated.

      1. Lady_Lessa*

        The company we work for has outsourced the training. So we go to the same place for everything. And yes, something slightly different would be appreciated.

    2. Nesprin*

      Oh I feel your pain. I have something like 40 hours of safety training every 6 months and I can guarantee that watching the same videos twice a year does not make me a safer worker.

    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Been at my company 22 years, and I’ve learned the annual trainings are updated every 5 years. Fun times.
      A pretest to be able to skip the trainings if you pass would be nice, but if they’re required for compliance reasons that may not be a realistic thing to expect.

    4. gingko*

      Haha. I work at a marketing agency and have contractor logins for several of our client companies. I have to do various online trainings periodically for EACH of these to maintain my access, and they all drive me nuts. They’re often on topics that have nothing to do with my work (my favorite was the one that explained how to avoid taking bribes from a foreign government, like bro plz I’m just trying to proofread your product pages), and the way the quiz questions are formulated is comical (Which is correct? Option A: Cheat, lie, steal, make sexual comments toward your subordinates, and watch YouTube on company time. Option B: Don’t do that.) At this point I just think of it as a little break from my work and try to keep an eye out for the wildest questions/scenarios, but corporate trainings are… something else

      1. PotatoRock*

        My favorite annual training is the “Embezzlement, Corruption, and Insider Trading”. Someday, someone is going to retitle it to “Preventing XYZ…” and it’s going to be much less fun

    5. Liane*

      Videos stayed the same over the 8 years I worked at (In)famous Retailer. Only new ones ones were for the rare instances when a new training was added, or law, procedures, equipment changed. And no fast-forwarding or skip to test options. On the other hand, it was a break from customers. Up to a break of several hours or breaks on multiple days, depending on how many trainings were (over) due and how annoyed the District & Regional people were about it.

    6. Pink Candyfloss*

      My industry requires a lot of these yearly same old same old trainings. We get around the time waste factor by allowing people the option to take the “how well did you do” quiz FIRST. If you score 100%, you don’t have to repeat the whole training. If you don’t, you get sent to the opening screen and have to take it. It’s done wonders for information retention! lol

    7. spcepickle*

      I have to do mandatory: IT, ethics, sexual harassments, and wild fire smoke training every year. It is only on-line it takes about 6 hours to do it all. Every year it is the exact same thing! For the last 8 years.
      I searched for an add on to my internet browser that would automatically hit next on the training- no luck finding what I needed.
      So I put it on mute on one screen and do low thought work on the other screen – hitting next when I need to. Pass the test every year.

    8. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Personally, I’m excited about seeing our Fire Safety video yet again this year. I think it’s been the same for at least a decade. Every year the person who is conducting the training in the skits goes off the premises when there’s a fire and hasn’t told anyone she’s out of the building, and every year no one points out that this would be prudent to have done.

    9. RagingADHD*

      Mandatory training isn’t meant to be entertaining. it is meant to be clear, consistent, and compliant with regulatory requirements.

    10. JustaTech*

      I feel your pain. I have a series of videos, computer voice talking over text on the screen (argh!) and pseudo-interactive on-screen activities that I have to do every year for *several* different federal regulations.
      Data Integrity. FDA investigations. Blood borne pathogens (which was factually wrong for several years). They’re all terrible and it’s the same every time.

    11. Rara Avis*

      Yes, I watch the same training videos for about 5 years, and then there’s either an update or a new platform. I’m a very fast reader and have had to sit and wait because I finished all the slides but didn’t meet the minimum required seat time. Luckily it didn’t require me to interact, so I could do other things while waiting for the timer to run out.

    12. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

      The worst is when they changed something in the material in a class which is taken every year and then they DID NOT change the test questions/answers AND I GOT ONE WRONG!!! (I keep screenshots of the material so I know what changed.) I commented on the evaluation form. The following year it was the same incorrect answer to the question where the material had been updated.
      Oh well. Not my monkey anymore.

  50. General von Klinkerhoffen*

    I’ve been WFH for a very long time, and have fully optimised my workspace including monitor angles, mirrors, kneeling chair, light, music, etc.

    We have contractors in at the moment which means I can’t use my office and am hotdesking round my own house.

    It’s incredibly disruptive, for noise/dust/power reasons, but also using the laptop display, keyboard and mousepad. I’ve been really surprised by how much I seem to rely on using multiple screens and ergonomic devices.

    What do you most miss when you have to work somewhere other than your usual location? Or do you love variety and switch between different options (in-office, coffee shop, train, sofa, dining table) like a bee moving from flower to flower?

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I’m always fascinated and kind of envious of people who can move around their space to work when they’re at home, because the second I lose my second monitor and separate keyboard/mouse, I’m lost.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Yes, the trouble is that I can only do around half my job on one screen. I’ve had to defer some tasks for when I can use the proper monitors.

        It’s a holiday weekend in the UK so I’m planning to work while the contractors are off, just to catch up / get ahead on the “two screens” tasks.

        Spouse is a developer and only had to vacate his office for a couple of days. He ended up taking PTO because so little of his job can be done on the sofa.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Oh, I hate being away from my regular set up. I had contractors for 2 months last spring, and even though I set up my full workstation in another room it was still not as good as my office. I missed my view, my colorful rug, and being close to both my kitchen and a bathroom. I am a creature of habit, and never met a routine I wouldn’t try, so I stay in one place unless I have to go into the office – where I sit at the same desk every time.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      Definitely using the built-in keyboard, touchpad and my extra monitors. The nature of my work makes it a giant PITA using just the laptop screen,and ergonomic reasons make me miss my keyboard and vertical mouse. To a lesser extent, I also miss my chair, but really, the other things are a bigger issue.

    4. Maleficent2026*

      I have to go in to the office one day a week, and I hate the fact that that ONE DAY requires an additional 1-2 hours of prep work. Hair styling, makeup, professional clothing, prepping food, commute, etc. It annoys me every week.

      1. WellRed*

        I don’t have to go in at all but when I do, it’s annoying to have to remember things like chargers and earbuds and honestly, I’m sometimes at work and space a password or something and I haven’t brought my cheat sheet.

    5. Filosofickle*

      I’m a bee! I have 5 different rooms in my house that I work at, including sit and stand options, so I can choose what matches my mood or shift gears by shifting my space. This is the big reason I’ve never taken to having multiple monitors — I’ve tried but my urge to move is too strong so I just use my laptop screen everywhere. Two rooms have properly set up desks, so both screen and external keyboard can be at the right height and I do miss that when I move around. But I can’t work anywhere outside my house — I need the quiet of home and that doesn’t fit in my laptop bag!

    6. A Girl Named Fred*

      You may already know about these so feel free to disregard, but have you looked into whether they make portable second monitors for your brand of laptop? I was surprised at an offsite meeting the other day when I saw a coworker take out their laptop, open the lid, and then fold out a second screen that was somehow attached to the back of the display and connected by a USB. We use Lenovo Thinkpads, but I would think/hope that something similar is available for other computers too? Just wanted to mention that in case it helps you or anyone else. :)

      My choices are also going to be the second monitor and, maybe weirdly, a mouse. Not even a specific one (although I do prefer my personal gaming mouse to any of my work ones) but I have just become So Slow on a trackpad that it annoys the stuffing out of me when I have to use one. I think I’d be willing to give up the second monitor if it meant I could work from home and/or some other spots, but I’d definitely bring a mouse with me everywhere lol

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        I have to stop and think when I’m scrolling using a trackpad. Am I pulling the screen the way I want it to go (like touchscreen), or showing it the direction I want it to move (like a scroll wheel)?

        Second monitor issue is temporary for me because it’s firmly bolted to my usual WFH desk but that recommendation may well be useful to others!

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      I mean, I can’t stand even sitting at another person’s cubicle/computer setup because everything is set in weird places and the size of the type onscreen is 75% and why in the hell are they keeping specials notices from three years ago?

      And that’s not even counting sitting in a setup that’s “flipped” and everything’s on the wrong side of the desk–phone, mouse, etc.

    8. JustaTech*

      I’m usually fine with the different set up in the lab working with lab computers, but I despise having to use Excel (through Teams!) on my laptop. The screen is too dang small to see everything I need to see, and if I shrink it down so the whole thing is on screen at once, it’s too small to read.

      But that’s how the rest of the team wants to work, so I’m stuck with it.

    9. Honey Badger just don't care*

      Mostly, I whine. I have dual monitors, lovely desk, chair set exactly how I want it. Keyboard. Mouse. Dogs. When I have to go elsewhere, like into the office, I am absolutely not productive. I feel like I get nothing done.

    10. allathian*

      I need at least one large monitor to work effectively. At home I have a 34 in 4K monitor, at the office I use two 27 in monitors, either setup works for me. I also prefer large keyboards with numeric keypads because it’s so hard to touch type on a laptop keyboard. I also find touchpads hard to use, I haven’t figured out how to drag and drop with only one hand using a touchpad.

      I like my coworkers and seeing them occasionally is fun, but I work far more effectively from home because my job requires no synchronous collaboration and very little asynchronous, so there’s no added value in working in the same space. But I’d far rather go to the office than attempt to WFH with construction workers in the house…

  51. Not That Jane*

    My 8-year-old daughter requested that we write in to the AAM comment section for advice about a school friend problem. (I gave her some AAM scripts earlier this week to help her shut down a classmate’s mean comments, and she got curious about how y’all might weigh in on the situation).

    Daughter has two friends: Sunny (friend) and Persephone (frenemy). At the beginning of the school year they were a happy trio of friends, but over time Daughter started to notice that Persephone tells lies, makes mean comments, and is trying to cut her out of a friendship with Sunny. Persephone’s most recent actions include shoving Daughter during recess, mocking her for skipping a grade (“you’re not a real third grader”), and asking to have her seat moved away from Daughter. Teachers are responsive and helpful, fortunately, but Daughter is looking for scripts to (a) shut down Persephone’s meanness and (b) maintain her friendship with Sunny.

    I recommended the time-tested AAM method of asking clearly for the behavior to stop, and then if it doesn’t, being bland and returning the awkward to sender by saying how weird it is that it keeps happening. Daughter would love any additional advice <3

    1. Rage*

      Ignore the “asking to have her seat moved away”. Or, celebrate it because why would you want to sit near someone who has physically shoved you?

      Shoving – do not engage or retaliate, but report it factually. (“Persephone placed her hands on my shoulders and pushed me to the ground. I do not want her to touch me.”)

      Mocked for skipping a grade? Depends on how petty/mean she wants to be. “You’re not a real third grader! You skipped a grade!” “Hm, guess that just means I’m smarter than you, since you weren’t able to.” Ultimately, it’s probably not worth engaging. Persephone is looking for a reaction, so best not to give her one. Learning to be dispassionate about these things is, honestly, a useful life skill.

      I think ignoring the meanness is the best way to deal with Persephone.

      As for Sunny, be more deliberate in how she cultivates her friendship with her: invite her for individual play dates, make a point to engage with her on a daily basis, be warm, supportive, and friendly, give compliments (“That dress is so pretty!” “I love your shoes!” “Oh, wow, you got a 100 on the spelling test! That’s so awesome! You are so good at that.”)

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        I would advise treating her friendship with Sunny as its own thing–right now it’s all tangled with Persephone’s actions, but they are two separate people.

        Have Sunny over for play or study time, or go to the pool/park or whatever as a duo. That doesn’t mean your daughter gets to try to cut Persephone out of Sunny’s life (that’s just doing what P’s doing) but it’s okay for her to say she wants her friendship circle to not include a mean, pushy person.

        This may not work. Their own friendship may fade or change. But I think keeping Sunny in her life as Sunny and not part of this triangle may help.

    2. Em from CT*

      If she were an adult, I’d advise returning the rudeness to sender by saying: “Wow, that’s a rude thing to say!” or “Wow, that’s a mean thing to do!” (making the distinction between being rude vs. saying or doing rude things). But I know plenty of adults (myself included!) who’d have a hard time with this level of bluntness, so your you and your daughter may not find that helpful!

      1. Em from CT*

        PS Good for you–what a lucky kiddo to have a parent who’s so supportive and teaching her how to handle situations like this!

    3. Alex*

      I’m not sure there’s really a magical way to stop Persephone’s behavior. Persephone is being mean, and she knows she’s being mean, and she’s doing it on purpose.

      For the “You’re not a real third grader,” I think the confusions/acting like that is a weird thing to say is the way to go. What does that even mean? Or maybe being really boring and not giving Persephone the satisfaction of ruining your day. “Um, Ok.” Shrug. Being a “real” third grader is neither a major accomplishment nor a permanent state of being, so…if that is the worst insult Persephone can think of it must mean she can’t find much else wrong.

      As for being friends with Sunny, keeping things fun and just not talking about Persephone at all might be the way to go. Sunny will make her own choices about her friends, and she may unfortunately feel pressure from Persephone and cave to that pressure. Or she may not, who knows, but there’s no magical way to make sure Sunny stays friends other than just being a good friend to her and hope that is enough.

      1. Meh*

        If the daughter is up for it, she can absolutely say “wow that isn’t very kind” ? Seems like an appropriate response at any age, and kids have fewer inhibitions/filters than adults, she may be fine with it.

        Regarding shoving, I would suggest she speak up loudly and clearly (enough so passerbys can notice) “please stop pushing me”. A kid who is acting like Persephone probably will eventually make false accusations and having other bystanders attention will help.

      2. Hyaline*

        This–the kiddos are all old enough to know that these are mean words and actions, and are moving into the age where some kids deploy meanness in increasingly intentional and well-thought-out ways (unfortunately). I would probably advise your own kid to avoid Persephone when possible, and to keep using clear “that was unkind, please stop” kinds of statements, but to be aware that honestly…when a kid decides to mean, it won’t work and plain old avoidance is probably better. More difficult, honestly, she’ll also need to accept that Sunny is going to have to navigate her own relationship with their first Mean Girl, and it might not always go the “right” way. Maybe encourage her to be friendly with other kids in the class/grade, too, or focus on friends she has in an extracurricular activity, neighborhood, house of worship, etc environments.

        I wish I could say that the school can intervene on the physical bullying, at the least, but we’ve found this not to be true.

    4. anon_sighing*

      I don’t think AAM scripts should be used for interpersonal affairs – they come off very stiff and condescending when you have a close relationship (or at supposed to). A script especially will not work on a third grader who thinks “you’re not a real third grader” is a jarring blow to the ego.

      The best thing your daughter can internalize while young and self-aware (good for her here, by the way – she notices Persephone makes her feel bad and is being mean and wants to do something about it) is that she can stop being friends with Persephone while staying friends with Sunny. She does not need to be friends with Persephone to be friends with Sunny, and she should be talking to Sunny about this…not Persephone. I don’t want to be out of line by saying it this way, but it’s not constructive to make her confront Persephone – teach your daughter the powerful skill of not giving attention to poor behavior. Just tell your daughter to say “ok” when Persephone says something mean and go back to having her fun.

      More important than shutting down Persephone (who is in 3rd grade and needs to see her behavior won’t have the intended result): How does your daughter want the friendship to Sunny to look, assuming Sunny doesn’t want to cut off Persephone?

    5. fhqwhgads*

      I think “What an odd thing to say” – or if that doesn’t feel natural to a third grader “what a weird thing to say” could do a lot of work here for the mean comments. It’s also true? Avoid the impulse to snap back about the skipping a grade stuff, cuz probably there’s some insecurity behind that comment in the first place. But yeah, Persephone wants a reaction, so only give her boring ones.
      Preserving the other friendship: take opportunities to hang out without Persephone present. Bonus: the not-engaging with the meanness will also avoid any kinda resentment from Sunny about any retaliatory thing kid might’ve said to Persephone, since employing this strategy means not saying anything retaliatory.

    6. RagingADHD*

      When my daughter was dealing with this kind if nonsense, I advised her that there was nothing she could say or do to make Persephone be a good friend unless P wanted to be one. And since she clearly did not, my daughter should just stay away from her and stop trying to make it happen.

      It’s okay to be sad when someone hurts your feelings. It’s okay to tell them they hurt your feelings. But if they keep doing it, you don’t have to be around them.

      She can maintain a friendship with Sunny by doing friend things with Sunny – talking with her, playing on the playground, inviting her over, etc.

    7. Some advice*

      Persephone’s attempted out of a friend is a classic maneuver described in Queen Bees and Wannabees, the basis for the film Mean Girls (already mentioned by another comment in this thread). I recommend you check it out. It doesn’t help with preventing the behavior so much as understanding it, but it is eye-opening and helps clarify what can be annoyingly prevalent behavior patterns. My take, advice to your daughter. do not seem to be actively fighting for Sunny’s attention. Coming off as desperate to keep the friend can backfire, and bullies love contests they can win, so don’t engage. Definitely don’t make P a frequent conversation topic. Instead, build fun experiences so Sunny will want to spend time with you. I also agree with the gray rock comments from the other contributors on this thread.

    8. anon for this*

      I have a child in a similar situation. Same age, so this hits close. I agree with the suggestion to do events outside of school with Sunny, but not to put too much pressure on anyone to “keep” her as a friend. If Sunny is a prize to win, it’s awkward for everyone. Better to keep the door of friendship open, but let Sunny walk through on her own. If your daughter has other groups to try, now is the time. Extra fun stuff with you as well, to build up her confidence as she navigates these issues.

      As for scripts, your daughter probably knows what she wants to say. Plus, we can’t say it right for her. My kid uses “sussy” in ways that defy logic for me. She might need to practice it with you so she is ready when the time comes.

      And finally, it’s awesome that you have an open line of communication with her. This is setting both of you up for long term success.

  52. Book recommendations, anyone.*

    Any book recommendations on being in leadership as an introvert?

    I’ve seen Alison’s posts on this topic, which have been helpful.
    I’ve also done a lite Google search on books and seen some popular ones, but researching on the internet just overwhelms me these days and would like to get ‘personal’ recommendations from my internet frands.

  53. whatthewhat*

    Six months ago, I transitioned to a new role in a different industry. I’m using skills from the industry I came from; there are things that were rusty and some stuff that needed to “gel” in different ways, but in general, I’m operating like a mid-career professional and everyone is happy with my performance.

    However, I am having a really hard time planning, organizing, and feeling like I’m on top of things. My prior industry was faster-paced with a lot more structure, accountability, and deadlines built in, so even if certain days and weeks felt disorganized, on the balance, I was usually getting the right things done. Even in that environment, though, I never felt like I was fitting in the things I wanted to do to progress my career, and I left partly because I couldn’t figure out how to carve out time to work towards an internal transition and was getting frustrated with this when my current job just fell into my lap. As I’ve reflected, I can see these patterns throughout my life: I’ll be the most effective person whenever there are external expectations or structures – and the higher the expectations/constraints, the more effective I am – but as soon as I’m left to my own devices to drive things forward, it’s a mess.

    What’s ironic is that I’m really good at organizing work at a team level, including my own pieces of that work, as long as there’s a clear outcome we’re all driving towards. I’ve also read almost every best-selling productivity book in the last 50 years. But when it comes to personal workflow, nothing sticks – I end up just kind of going through my days doing whatever feels most important in the moment, mostly getting things done and not creating messes for myself, but never really feeling like I’m making progress against the things I value for myself.

    Also, it’s unlikely I have ADHD; I’ve been screened a couple of times, and I don’t tick the right boxes. Practical advice for/from folks with ADHD that may apply is more than welcome, but I don’t think further exploring a diagnosis is going to be helpful for me.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Your experience is close to my own, and I wish I had some suggestions for you. I feel like I try a new way to schedule/track/keep on top of things every couple of months, but nothing has worked to date. For me, I probably need to give these systems more time to work but that may not be an issue for you. One thing that has helped a little is blocking time for this type of work every week. Tuesday afternoons I work on strategy/planning/recalibrating. It helps me to take a step back from the day to day and set goals and plans for the future. Good luck!

    2. Just another content creator*

      I relate to you so much! Three years ago, I move from a super fast-paced, deadline-driven company to one with a more relaxed approach to completing projects.

      One thing that helps me create that “external expectations” feeling to keep myself motivated/on task is to prioritize projects with my supervisor in my weekly check-ins. We talk about my task list, and I’ll let her know where I’m at and ask when she needs to see the next step/proof/whatever so I have a deadline in mind. While my team typically doesn’t have firm deadlines, meeting/exceeding my boss’ timeline provides that extra oomph I need to get going.

      I also start my day by creating a mental list of three things I want to accomplish: One thing I’ve been avoiding doing, one thing that has a deadline coming up, and one thing I enjoy/like doing.

      Another idea that might work is a self-imposed speed/efficiency test: how fast can I get something (usually a repetitive/easier task) done? How many emails can I get through in the 20 minutes left until lunch? Challenges like this help me feel better/accomplished about doing things I don’t necessarily want to do, but need done.

    3. Onwards and Forth*

      Have you read the Gretchen Rubin Four Tendencies book? There’s a free quiz on her website and I found the methods relating to my “tendency” to be very useful.

      1. JR 17*

        Came here to recommend the Four Tendencies, too. You’ve just laid out a clear description of the obliterated tendency – easily meet external expectations, struggle with internal expectations. Key for obligers is to make your internal goals external. Gretchen Rubin has lots of great analysis and advice. In addition to her book, she covers a lot on her Happier podcast.

  54. Rage*

    I graduate with a Masters next weekend.

    Technically, I have to finish up some internship hours before my degree is conferred, but I am done with course work and will walk on May 11.

    I’m just exhausted, though, and ready to be just done already.

    I look back and laugh at how I used to say I would go for my doctorate after this. *snorts* I think I’m done-done.

    3. Lady_Lessa*

      Congratulations. I actually had passed into the PhD candidacy part of the program before I dropped out with a non-thesis Master’s. One of my better decisions.

      May you be as fortunate.

      1. Rage*

        My Masters was also non-thesis, which was good because I think I would have died if I’d had to write one last year.

    5. Blueprint blues*

      congrats! after my masters I was basically a useless vegetable for 2 months. allow yourself some recovery time!

  55. Just Here for the Cake*

    My wife was laid off on Tuesday from a company she’s been with for 7 years. She’s a software engineer, so the new job prospects are not looking so hot right. Plus, she not looking forward to having to get back into interview mode, on top of all the feeling that come with layoffs. Luckily though, we don’t have to worry about money for the time being. Does anyone have any advice of how I can support her right now? She’s trying to put on a brave face, but I know she’s hurting.

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      Treat her as gently as you would if she had lost someone important to her.
      She is/will be mourning.

    3. M2*

      Give her time but ask her what would be helpful to her. Support her how you can and start budgeting. A close friend was laid off from a tech company last summer and still has not found a job. They have gone to interviews and received call backs but have not received an offer. Not to scare you but it is very stressful for them. They asked for advice and I told them to look outside the sector. Yes you might not make as much money but it’s sometimes easier to get a job when you have a job. And who knows maybe you’ll find something you like better than tech!

      Sending positive vibes!

    4. Glazed Donut*

      Give her some space. Find things to talk about and do that aren’t job-search related. Help her brainstorm networking, if that makes sense. Try to maintain some normalcy in your life, and encourage her to get out of the house when she can.

      I quit my job and gave myself some time before I began applying in earnest. It was kind of soul-crushing when well-meaning friends and family would open every conversation with “Any news on the job front?!” because I felt like I was somehow letting them down with my ‘no news’ and ‘still no news…’ updates.

    5. Educator*

      A lot of people get a sense of identity and self-worth from their jobs. If your wife is one of them, you are uniquely positioned, as her spouse, to show her the value she brings to the world completely apart from her job. Make sure she continues to see herself as competent and worthy. For the people in my life, that means having important non-work projects, being trusted with responsibility, and being praised, honestly, for their contributions to our lives.

  56. DisneyChannelThis*

    Is it wrong to fake being bad at a task to avoid doing it?

    We are averaging about one panel interview a week in my department right now. These last 1-2 hrs. I absolutely hate interviewing, I feel terrible when I recommend “no” on a candidate. I have social anxiety, it makes the whole day rough. Unfortunately in my group I seem to be one of the better people at it. I’ve noticed a trend of others getting out of the panel, people who are bad at it. Am I terrible if I start nose diving it?? I know panels are valuable to the candidates, and helps get a candidate whose going to be a good fit, but 80-90% of the positions they’re hiring for will have 0 interaction with me.

    1. Busy Middle Manager*

      It’s not wrong, but it makes you look bad. You’re asking the wrong question. You should be asking “how do I get out of this.”

      You get out of this by thinking about a solution. Find out which of your coworkers wants to be there more, for example

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      > Is it wrong to fake being bad at a task to avoid doing it?

      I mean, yes. That’s something for a sitcom plot, not something for a workplace. And in the context you describe? Your actions might tank someone’s candidacy. They (and the other people in the room) don’t deserve that.

      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        Fair enough. I don’t think it would tank someones candidacy, more like Joe, who is no longer asked to be on panels, who had 1 question for the candidate and it was something silly like “do you think you’d like working here”. That one was answered with “Yes”. Not really gaining any insight but didn’t hurt the candidate either.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Yeah, but there’s always the potential for problems if you’re just messing about to get out of something, or not necessarily tanking someone’s candidacy but depriving them of a good candidate because of your antics.

          There’s also the possibility of accidentally being clueless to the point where your firm doesn’t just let you drop out of hiring but takes it a bit further and questions your suitability for other areas of your job as well. I really wouldn’t chance it at all as things like this have a habit of backfiring in more spectacular ways than you bargained for.

    3. EMP*

      Have you asked to removed from the hiring panel, or asked if you can be on them less frequently? That’s a good first step.

  57. History Nerd*

    One of my coworkers keeps saying that we’re all getting contacted by recruiters right now and everyone else nods along. I’m not, even though I have the same job title and similar qualifications. Could recruiters be skipping over me because my work history is in several different fields, rather than one like most of theirs?

    1. ccsquared*

      Your co-worker has gotten contacted by at most two recruiters, and has talked to at least two people in their network who have gotten contacted by at least one recruiter recently. No one else wants to admit that they have not been contacted by recruiters, either, so they just nod along, and then talk later with about group about how everyone is getting contacted by recruiters now.

      It’s also possible he applies to jobs more frequently and has ended up in more recruiting databases, which can be a double-edged sword, because as you can guess, the super aggressive recruiting firms are not usually the ones with plumb opportunities.

      It never hurts to spruce up your LinkedIn and resume, and it may be true in aggregate that there is more recruiting activity in your field and thus good timing to act on any career moves you’ve been thinking about, but that’s really the only thing you should read into your co-worker’s experience.

      1. History Nerd*

        That was one of my thoughts and why I haven’t taken it personally – that everyone else could be nodding along while thinking they were the only one who hasn’t had recruiters contacting them.

    2. Green Tea*

      Is your LinkedIn profile set to ‘open to work’? Recruiters might just be reaching out to people who have indicated they’re open to hearing them out.

    3. Keyner*

      I get contacted a lot by recruiters who can’t seem to find my colleagues. I think it’s because I filled out everything LinkedIn let me fill out with the right keywords and regularly post about my field. SEO, basically, but for my profile.

  58. Elle Woods*

    I thought I had a new job lined up…then I got formal offer.

    During the interview process, salary and benefit discussions came up with both the internal recruiter and hiring manager. We were in synch on expected salary range, PTO, and hybrid work.

    They emailed the formal offer late yesterday and it’s a huge disappointment. They’re offering me $30K less than what we discussed, half the PTO (10 days vs. 20), and no chance for hybrid work until I’ve been there for three full calendar months (which they stipulate starts on the 1st of the month and not the day you begin work with them).

    I’m so taken aback by this that I’m not even sure I want to try and negotiate with them. It’s striking me as a huge red flag that if they’re pulling a bait-and-switch now it’s only going to get worse if I work there. There were no red or even yellow flags prior to this. Any advice or thoughts on how to proceed?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Can you confirm that the offer they sent is correct? Write back with I’m surprised by this I thought we had discussed XYZ terms. Maybe HR sent broiler plate and not your specific one by mistake. If they double down on it then yeah walk away.

      1. Elle Woods*

        That’s what I’ve decided to do. I wrote back to the HR rep and CC’d the hiring manager on it. I said (borrowing language from you and MsM), “I’ve had a chance to review the offer you sent yesterday. I’m quite surprised by it as it varies significantly from what we discussed during the interviewing process. I’d like to chat with you to see if there’s a way for us to come back up to those numbers.” I’m hoping I’ll hear back yet today.

    2. MsM*

      Is there any chance at all someone in HR got your offer mixed up with someone else’s? I’d give them one chance to correct: “This doesn’t reflect what we discussed at all. [Reiterate the terms you thought you were in agreement on.] I’m happy to talk if there’s a way for us to come back up to those numbers, but I can’t accept this.”

    3. Sherm*

      Maybe in professional-speak tell them that you are frankly surprised at what the offer came to, and see whether you get a green flag or a red flag in response. If they acknowledge it’s a big difference and are thoughtful about it, telling you clearly how they got to that number, that’s a green flag to me. But still don’t take the job unless you are satisfied with what the salary winds up being. If they compromise and offer $15K less, but $15K less is still unacceptable for you, look elsewhere.

      If they are dismissive, give you the run around, or try to guilt-trip you, then it’s red flags all around.

      1. Antilles*

        But still don’t take the job unless you are satisfied with what the salary winds up being. If they compromise and offer $15K less, but $15K less is still unacceptable for you, look elsewhere.
        Personally, I think the fact that they went from discussing $X, then giving you an offer of $X-30k is itself a red flag (barring some obvious HR boilerplate/typo scenario like others have posted). Regardless of their reasons or my ability to be happy with $X-15k, I’d still be pretty nervous about that sort of switch.

    4. Geeyourhairsmellsterrific*

      I’d respond by asking them to review the offer because it differs significantly from what was discussed. Hopefully it’s an error on their part.

    5. Glazed Donut*

      Oh wow, I am in a similar boat (but with a few more red flags!). See my comment earlier today.

      If you have the option to walk away, I probably would, unless they express some kind of embarrassment (“oh I can’t believe we sent you that, totally an error on our part…”).

      If the PTO and hybrid are dealbreakers for you, then they’re dealbreakers. If you don’t have an income, then maybe starting and while you continue to look (what I’m doing) makes the most sense.

      I’m sorry you’re in this position. It’s definitely deflating.

      1. Elle Woods*

        Just saw your comment from earlier. Sorry you’re dealing with this too. Sending good vibes things go better for you.

        I’m waiting to hear back from HR about it. I’ll be a bit deflated, but OK, if this one doesn’t pan out as I’m moving along in the process with other companies.

    6. JR 17*

      Will you come back and update? Hoping it was a mistake/miscommunication between the hiring manager and HR and they fix it quickly!

  59. Coach Beard*

    I am actively doing a job search right now and have recently wondered how, when interviewing, to answer the question of why I’m looking to leave my current employer.

    There are a few reasons I am looking to leave that I share with interviews:

    1. I am looking to relocate. I can’t use this for local positions but most non-local positions address this with me either before or during the interview.

    2. It’s a huge company (about 200k employees worldwide), which I find overwhelming. That said, I haven’t used this one that many times.

    3. My most used one is related to our in-office setup. It’s technically a hybrid model but we only have to come in twice a week and don’t have to go in for a full workday. That said, it’s also a “hotel desk” model, meaning we have to book our seats on an app on days we want to come in. Also, since much of the equipment isn’t provided and we don’t have assigned desks, we have to bring in a lot of our own equipment and then take it with us when we leave. At least partially as a result of this, the in-office culture is basically nonexistent and the whole environment just feels impersonal.

    There are also other issues that I don’t share with interviewers.

    My ideal environment would be a more “traditional” hybrid model, where I come in a few times a week and WFH other days, but I have my own desk and can form actual relationships with coworkers. I try to frame it as looking for something more “personal” and with “more of an in-office presence.” I am not sure how I would feel about a job that required 5 days a week in-office but I know I don’t like my current employer’s setup. I am also not interested in fully remote positions.

    There is an unwritten rule not to be negative about your current employer when interviewing, so I’m wondering if there’s a way for me to address these things without coming across as negative. I haven’t gotten any negative feedback from recruiters about it but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not being viewed in a negative light. I’m also wondering if I should focus more on my desire to relocate when interviewing for non-local positions.

    Any feedback is appreciated.

    1. MsM*

      I think “the culture/work setup isn’t a good fit for me” is entirely acceptable as a reason. You’re not saying it’s bad for everyone; it just doesn’t work for you. And it gives you a chance to find out if/how things are different wherever you’re interviewing.

      1. Panda (she/her)*

        I agree, but if you say this, be prepared to speak about what specifically isn’t working for you. The company you’re interviewing with will want to make sure that their culture/work setup WILL work since you’ve just said that it’s a reason you’d leave.

        1. Coach Beard*

          I agree that I would need to be prepared to explain in detail what specifically isn’t working for me. The explanations I’ve been giving feel a little long-winded, but I also don’t know who is and isn’t familiar with the “hotel desk” model. Even if they didn’t ask what was making me want to look elsewhere, or if they did and I didn’t mention that, I would still want to make sure that the interviewing company didn’t use that model, so I’d probably find myself using the same long-winded explanation regardless.

          1. GythaOgden*

            Yeah, but there’s always the potential for problems if you’re just messing about to get out of something, or not necessarily tanking someone’s candidacy but depriving them of a good candidate because of your antics.

            There’s also the possibility of accidentally being clueless to the point where your firm doesn’t just let you drop out of hiring but takes it a bit further and questions your suitability for other areas of your job as well. I really wouldn’t chance it at all as things like this have a habit of backfiring in more spectacular ways than you bargained for.

    2. Alex*

      I don’t think saying “My employer’s set up isn’t working for me,” is badmouthing your current employer. You can say you are looking for an environment where you can form more robust relationships with colleagues by seeing them more regularly and having a regular workspace. Nothing wrong with that.

    3. ecnaseener*

      What you’re saying is fine, but I’d also use the “hoping to work for a smaller company” angle — very normal, clearly not insulting your current employer for being big, just your preference.

    4. Coach Beard*

      ETA: On the subject of relocation, I don’t have any one area picked out, though there are areas that I know I don’t want to move to. When asked about it I typically say something like, “I’m looking to get out of Current City and Your City is one area I’m looking at, but I would need to have a job in order to make the move.” Not sure if this will impact anyone’s responses.

  60. ALT-FF*

    I’m looking for advice on a work situation that is annoying me to no end and that I suspect is based in sexism.

    I work at a small business that includes 7 people that work outside the office on job sites, my two male bosses, and me. One of my boss’s wife, Sarah, used to work in the office with me. She passed away about 6 months ago. I’m the only woman that works at this business now. My role covers a variety of tasks. I am office manager, HR, payroll, accounting, and I work face to face with clients/customers via appointments/walk-ins. I also work closely with sales representatives from maybe 15-20 different distributors whose products we carry. About 90% of these sales reps are male and I talk to each one on average of once or twice per week either in person or on the phone.

    One sales rep in particular has been annoying me. He’ll come in (without making an appointment like I requested he do multiple times) and want to have a general chat before getting into the business side of things. I’m not not friendly, but I’m not really interested in chatting about the weather or sports or whatever, but I can do it for a minute as it’s part of working face-to-face with people.

    However, since boss #1’s wife passed away EVERY TIME he comes in, he asks me how Boss #1 is doing. He says in a way that is slightly gossipy, but also concerned, a combination of both that annoys me on principal, but especially because I think it’s inappropriate to ask me that. Boss is either doing well or not well and why would he ask me? Ask Boss #1 yourself! Be personable with him. I’m not Boss #1’s keeper, I’m not Boss #1’s adult kid that works here, I’m just his employee. He changes his demeanor when he brings this up like his voice goes soft and he addresses me like I’m a woman and of course you should ask a woman these things. I do not think he would bring this up if he were a man. I can’t it explain it well beyond that, maybe some other women reading this understand what I mean.

    I need some advice on what to say to him to shut this down in a friendly way. I don’t necessarily need/want to “call him out” on this. I have to remain friendly with him as I work with his company frequently. As of now when he asks how Boss #1 is doing, I remain my neutral tone (I don’t take on a caretaking/motherly tone) and reply with “He’s doing fine” or “He’s doing as well as you’d expect” and then promptly “So you said you had X to show me/you wanted to discuss the price of Y”. But he’s not taking the hint that I’m not going to engage further. IDK . Any advice?

    1. MsM*

      I think you may be reading too much into this. Maybe your other sales reps don’t take this approach, but “how’s [connection we have in common]?” is a fairly standard bit of chit-chat before getting down to business. Even if said connection hadn’t just been through something rough and there’s a chance they’re trying to find out from anyone who might have any kind of insight into how they’re doing before they talk to that person directly.

      That said, you can just pivot away from it with “I don’t really know; he seems to be doing all right, but we don’t talk much outside of work. Speaking of which…”

    2. Nesprin*

      That sure sounds like the patriarchy at work- clearly only a woman would be able to do the feelings for boss.

      It might be worth being more explicit – “Not sure why you think I’d know” or more boring “Dunno”

    3. Double A*

      You could say, “I’m sure he’d appreciate if you ask him directly,” if you do indeed think that he would be okay with that.

    4. anon_sighing*

      Is your go-to not “I don’t know, you’d have to ask him yourself. Seems ok to me”? I genuinely don’t like this question although I know the typical polite response is supposed to be “good.”

      However, I think you’re just in the direct, easily accessible line of fire for this, especially if you’re the one who sees the boss on a regular basis and keeps up with him. Asking how someone is after their spouse died to a coworker is…not that bizarre. You can use your words to say you’re not comfortable with this though.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      I might be an ass, but I’d probably completely ignore the question about boss, treat it like social-contract small talk instead of a genuine question and thus doesn’t require an actual answer, and then go straight to “We’ve discussed before you ought to make an appointment before coming before coming in. Please do so in the future. What do you need right now?”
      That way you’re sidestepping the question that doesn’t apply to you AND getting straight to business.

    6. WellRed*

      Guess I’ll play devils advocate. You are the only one who works in the office (and actually worked with her) so you are better positioned, in theory, to answer this question than someone else who works in the field. Sure, maybe there’s some sexism here but I don’t think we need to shout down the patriarchy (which I do quite a lot and cheerfully). I agree with all the suggestions about deflecting or redirecting the question.

  61. PropJoe*

    I’m not sure if it has ever been explicitly stated this way by Alison herself or letters she has published, but one thing I’ve picked up over years of perusing this site is that if you have a good employee, you ought not to be terribly surprised if they leave because other people like hiring good employees too.

    This is relevant because one of our two junior workers put in their notice today and is taking another job elsewhere in the institution. Losing them stinks because they did good work with minimal supervision, but the new job pays more than we can and they’ll be working for someone who is good people.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I think Alison states this not explicitly, but implicitly in most posts. Money is the reason people work, but money/benefits/working conditions/appreciation/opportunities etc. are some of the major reasons why people work where they work.

      other people like hiring good employees too

      Thank you for this. For all the people who read this blog and are good at their job but who want to get out (for whatever reason) but feel they can’t, this is a good reminder. If you got hired here in this terribly dysfunctional place, you can definitely get hired there in some other non-dysfunctional place.

      I’m happy for your junior worker and I’m glad you’re good with it. Another good worker will come your way, I’m sure. If you’re a good boss, you are likely to attract good people.

    2. TheBunny*

      It amazes me how many employers still don’t understand this.

      I’m leaving my current job because my boss is a micromanaging nightmare who borders on and often crosses into abusive with her “management” style.

      She was stunned when I resigned.

      I was stunned she was stunned. I’m a strong employee. Everyone is shocked I’m leaving because I was doing a good job…and I’ve been told as much by more than one coworker.

      But her attitude really seems to be that she can treat me as she wanted and I would just…stay.

  62. Co-Working Space Cat*

    I am looking into co-working spaces in my city (US).
    There appear to be several (inter-)national businesses offering such arrangements.

    What are things to look out for?

    An quick search identified one big provider in my area as being regarded as questionable at best. I am mostly interested in an ad-hoc setup, and not a subscription.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think this is something where you really need to visit the specific locations to get a feel for it. Because so much of it depends on the other clients there.

      Is there a 5-person company in which they all work there, they’ve commandeered a corner, and they’re loud?
      Is it super-quiet, and you work best with at least a little bit of bustle in the background?
      Are the other people cliquey?
      Are all the other people in profession/industry X, but you work in Y, and you want to be in the space partly in order to network?

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      Noise – my last one had events upstairs on summer events. Magically this was never mentioned until one day the office started shaking. Current one plays music in common areas which can be annoying too.

      Extra fees/access – do they let you be liberal with handing out keys or cards to new employees or is always a big deal/process?

      Cleaning – I’ve worked at a few and the best was night cleaning or just taking trash out most days with deeper cleaning once or twice a week. Worst was when they did a full clean every day because it overlapped with working hours and was very distracting.

  63. Anon in Advertising*

    I posted here recently griping about how I felt stretched thin & under-appreciated at work. Great news:

    I got promoted (new title, higher salary & stock grant, and higher bonus potential) and moved under a new boss, and it’s made a HUGE difference.

    My new boss is more thoughtful and appreciative of my work already, and he is working to distribute some of my “admin-level” tasks among other teammates who have less ongoing workload than me.

    This is literally exactly what I was hoping for, and I’m so incredibly grateful.

    Advice to you all – if you do good work and know you’re valuable to your organization, do not be afraid to ask for what you want! I mentioned two issues briefly in each of my past bi-annual reviews, and this change is directly the result of me raising those concerns.

    Happy Friday!

    1. Valancy Stirling*

      That’s such wonderful news! Congrats on the promotion and the boss upgrade!

  64. Lurker*

    My sister just quit her job as a Customer Experience Manager/Front Desk Receptionist at a salon with no notice. Her reasons included that there’s a group of girls bullying her and trying to get her fired, which includes the Manager, who gave my sister a write up for not being available to stay late on super late notice (8:30 pm the night before). The Owner was sad to have her leave, sat down with my sis to discuss why, and upon hearing about the bullying, assured my sis that she doesn’t condone it and would confront them. She may offer my sis a position as a Personal Assistant.

    My opinion is that the Owner is not a good person to work for. 1) I don’t think Owner is reliable; she told my sis she would sit down with her to discuss everything the day before she quit, then never showed up. 2) I don’t understand how the Owner could be so uninvolved that she had no idea this was happening. 3) Owner never communicated certain expectations such as, “Yes, you are expected to cover ALL shifts no matter what and we will pay any cancellation fees for your missed appointments.” 4) Part of the reason why this was expected was that the Manager can’t cover shifts as often because she’s a single mom and my sister is single and childless. 5) All for $19/hr but also salaried and exempt from overtime? 6) Plus the Owner was late getting my sister insurance so it took several weeks longer than she said it would when my sister was told about her benefits.

    I think this person is an awful manager and boss but my sister says she’s not that bad and a good person. Anyone have any thoughts?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      If she still has to interact with the bullies in the new role I wouldn’t take it

      1. Lurker*

        I think Owner made it sound like she wouldn’t but given that certain expectations were not communicated before, I don’t trust her. Also I think Owner at least needs to fire the head bully who even openly admits to being a mean girl.

        Manager has also taken to treating the one guy who backed up my sister poorly, along with all the bullies. So the fact the Owner isn’t convinced that Manager isn’t in on it also raises concerns with me about her judgement. Owner reminds me of the letter writer here whose newer employee gave her an ultimatum to fire her other employee of 3 years who was literally running her business for her. Newer employee had endeared herself to the letter writer by doing her personal favors.

    2. Rosemary Thyme*

      Being a good person is not the same thing as being a good boss. Being sympathetic is not the same thing as being a good boss. Appearing to be on her “side” is not the same thing as being a good boss.

    3. Off Plumb*

      It is almost impossible that this job is legitimately FLSA-exempt. It also seems unlikely that your sister would be willing to file a complaint for unpaid overtime she’s worked, but you could start by looking at posts Alison has made about what’s actually required for someone to be classified as exempt (it’s not just about hourly vs salaried) and show your sister that her boss is breaking the law, which is not generally a thing that good bosses do.

    4. anon_sighing*

      > Part of the reason why this was expected was that the Manager can’t cover shifts as often because she’s a single mom and my sister is single and childless.

      I bet the Owner condones this mentality, too, and that’s why your sister should go. This place doesn’t operate on business principles, it operates on the path of least resistance and that’s why bullying festers…because there are solutions to these issues (i.e., don’t stay open so late) but they want their cake and to eat it, too, at other people’s expense. The most annoying thing is that most people are okay covering for their coworkers…in healthy work environments.

      1. Bruce*

        Reminds me of when my sister got “promoted” to Assistant Manager at a gas station, meant she had to work weekends and cover the shifts that people missed, all for a huge 50 cent increase in her hourly rate. At least she was still hourly, being on salary for that sort of wage is nuts. She’s in a much better job now, thanks to her perseverance.

    5. Bruce*

      I thought $19 / hour had to be hourly! We moved people making a lot more than that to hourly a few years ago… that sounds like another fishy side to the owner.

    6. goddessoftransitory*

      She may be a “good person” in that she’s pleasant to personally interact with, but she’s not a good boss and is actively screwing your sister out of reasonable compensation, plus the late insurance and last minute “you don’t have kids so your time is ours” coverage.

      Have your sister sit down and run her actual numbers–what she should be making in overtime and so on. Even if everyone else who worked there was an angel she could do better–throw in the bullying and I’d run far, far away.

  65. sometimes working milspouse*

    I’ve been applying to jobs for a few months, including multiple jobs at one company that were posted at different times. The first one I applied for (which was before the others were posted) is now checking references, but it’s also the lowest paying and is a lateral move from my last job (and lower salary). The others have not started contacting applicants yet, but I know one has recently moved to review (I can check my status on their website). I think I know the answer here, but there’s no real way to hold out for one of the other jobs right? If I’m offered the first job I either say yes and withdraw from the other two or decline and risk not getting anything (and potentially hurting myself/my reputation if there’s any overlap in hiring people). Is there any other option I’m missing? Kicking myself but mostly cursing the timing.

    1. BellyButton*

      I would talk to the recruiter and let them know about the timing. They may be willing to get you in for an interview in one of the other positions and let you hold off accepting. If you’re a good fit for the other two they may be interested. I think you can ask!

  66. Valancy Stirling*

    I could use a sanity check. I recently passed up on a job at the training stage (there were several of us, and not a guaranteed job at the end). The pay wasn’t great, but I’ve been job hunting for months so that alone wouldn’t have made me say no.

    What made me say no is that the CEO is VERY invested in the employees’ personal lives – think lecturing us on forgiveness and giving mandatory bimonthly self-improvement sessions outside work hours. I woke up on the second day of training dreading the idea of showing up that day, let alone every day if I got the job.

    This was all absurd, right? I don’t regret not continuing to pursue that job, but I’d like some reassurance that I did the right thing.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh yeah, listen to your gut on that. It is absurd, it’s often a tell that the boss is extremely controlling or will demand extreme hours from you.

      2. A Significant Tree*

        And in this case, it sounds like they were surprisingly up-front about regular mandatory off-hours sessions for employees! You definitely made the right call.

    2. Lurker*

      That would definitely give me the ick. Why does the CEO have that much time on his hands? And too personal.

    3. Debbie in Development*

      Completely absurd! I’m interviewing myself and have had to trust my gut when something feels ridiculous. You did the right thing.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      You did the right thing. Since there was no guaranteed job at the end of this “training” it doesn’t sound legitimate at all. Were you paid for your time on the first day? Regardless of whether this was actually a scam or not, this type of lack of boundaries tends to get worse over time and not better.

      1. Valancy Stirling*

        It was legitimate – it’s a very big company in my region. The training was paid if you completed it AND didn’t leave within the first six months. I mentioned what was a deal-breaker to me, but there were several red flags there. Thank you for your comment!

        1. Bruce*

          I’d love the red flag icon right here… training paid if you finish and stay 6 months? DING DING DING!

    5. Graciosa*

      You did the right thing.

      Some people are CEO’s because they want to “win” at business. Some believe they know how work should be done to be successful. Some want recognition that they are better than the others who were competing for the role.

      For all I know, some large company CEO’s did it for access to the private plane!

      Your CEO gets some kind of satisfaction out of being in a position of power and telling other people what to do.

      Not about how to build a better mousetrap, or speed up the production line, or improve sales – he just enjoys telling people what to do in their PERSONAL lives.

      Which should be, well, *personal*.

      He isn’t focusing on business, he likes getting to demand to control you.

      Your instincts were spot on when they told you to walk away.

    6. Rosemary Thyme*

      Waking up dreading a job that isn’t even yours yet is a very clear sign you need to cut and run before things get worse. You were absolutely correct!

    7. AnonyOne*

      Absurd, but that job sounds like it absolutely could have produced a future classic AAM letter (or, really, letters).

      1. Valancy Stirling*

        Ha! I adore this blog, but I hope I never have cause to write a letter to Alison.

    8. Tribal Sovereignty 101*

      Sounds more like a cult than a job! You did the right thing. Run far, run fast.

    9. goddessoftransitory*

      “Lecturing on forgiveness” sounds a lot like “overlook a LOT of questionable stuff” to me. You did the right thing.

  67. JustMyImagination*

    My manager let me know that the position above mine would be open soon and she encouraged me to apply. Her boss (my grandboss) agrees that I’m ready for the step up. However, my great-grandboss, who has only been with the company a few months, is pushing for the position to be posted externally. It’s not company policy that open positions have to post externally, only internal is required. He’s also fed feedback down the chain that I need time to be “more refined”. I’m not sure what to do with that feedback as I’ve always been told I am very put together, run meetings efficiently and have solid presentation skills. Any other ideas what he could mean or is it just time to move on as he’s formed this impression of me after only meeting him a few times?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      If you’re ready for a higher-level job and want to move up, I think the best course of action is to apply to this internal position and start applying to external jobs too.

      Can you ask your boss and your grandboss for their input on what he might have meant by “more refined”? They know both you and him, so they are in the best position to have valuable insight.

      1. JustMyImagination*

        Thank you and this is gold advice. My manager seemed at a loss when we spoke but I’ll push her a bit and see if I can get any specifics.

    2. just here for the scripts*

      Whenever I’ve looked for an internal move, I’ve also applied for external ones. Then I take/stay with the better offer/experience.

      After all, once you’ve put that much time and effort into resume and interview prep, why limit your reach?

      Guessing the great grand boss is using an ist against you—sexist, ageist (I know legally this is only true in your over a specific age, but it’s a real thing for us women when you’re younger), racist, or classist.

      1. JustMyImagination*

        You may be on to something in your last paragraph. I’ve heard whisperings but since I don’t interact with him much, I’ve just been filing the information away.

    3. Goddess47*

      If you even think you want to stay, put your hat in the ring and see what happens. If you don’t get the job, then you can decide to leave or not. The grand-boss may have enough interest/capital to go to bat for you… but can’t do that if you don’t apply.

      The time it takes for the hiring process to happen may help inform great-grandboss’s opinion.

      Good luck!

    4. Pete*

      Sounds like the great-grandboss has a friend former colleague in mind for the position.

  68. Anonymous For Now*

    Work Advice (Humorous):

    On Stephen Colbert’s show last night he brought up the fact that Kristi Noem explained that she didn’t kill a puppy, she killed a working dog.

    Colbert said something to the effect that she didn’t shoot her puppy, she shot her employee.

    Word to the wise: Do not work for Kristi Noem. Who knows what she might do to you if she decides your work isn’t up to her standards.

    2. pally*

      We know she’ll take the most expedient action possible that offers the least amount of fuss for her. Never mind the consequences to others.

    4. This Daydreamer*

      Classic case of blaming an employee for their lack of training from the boss. Definitely more retaliatory than most workplaces, and really unfair to the scapegoat, too.

  69. Debbie in Development*

    I’d like to hear people’s take on a comment I’ve heard in interviews recently from a few different non-profits. The size of the organizations range from 50-500 people and I am in a large metropolis in the US.
    I work in development and have 9 years of experience, so I am interviewing with jobs that have a decent salary but are still pretty low for the COL.
    When asking about company culture, a few places have said they are a “non-profit with a for profit mindset” and go on to say they don’t settle for a laid back attitude and expect staff to meet certain ROI. While I agree explicit measures of success for staff are a good thing, I get the sense from these orgs that they pride themselves on this “for profit” mindset and I keep thinking “but the salaries don’t match a for-profit org!”
    Am I being too literal in my interpretation of these statements? Or is this a good sign that the org might not be the right fit? I also am aware I am a burning out but still need a job.

    1. just here for the scripts*

      As someone who has only worked in K-12 education and non-profit and ALWAYS met and exceeded my goals, I hate when people say stuff like this. “We’re not a civil service mentality” ; or “we’re a business”—similarly I’ve been in hiring committees in both scenarios and laughed afterwards with my colleagues when candidates say “I’m moving to non-profit because I want. A better work/like balance” (really? So you don’t know that non-profit means no extra dollars for additional resources/people???).

      I tend to disregard these comments and see what else their questions and behaviors tell me about their ability to do the job (including their ability to manage well when in the interviewing candidate).

      Sounds like

    2. Educator*

      Gross. I think this is code for “we think most nonprofit employees are lazy but we work hard.” And of course most people who work at nonprofits are motivated to work hard by the mission and their values–much more compelling reasons to work hard, in my opinion, than making shareholders rich.

      I would want to make sure that a a company saying this had a positive, collaborative culture built around shared values. Because, as you point out, with our salaries, nonprofit jobs are not worth it if the mission is not the primary driver.

    3. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      Eh, I think a lot of organizations try to sound edgy/different/hip/counterculture, especially when talking to job candidates. I work for a non-competitive industry but we’re always saying we think like a competitive company. Yet I’ve heard from people who joined our company that the pace is much slower and we’re very risk-averse. I think a lot of times recruiters say things like that to make job candidates a little uncomfortable, like “we don’t want you to join us and think you can slack off.”

    5. PotatoRock*

      I’d try to dig deeper – I’ve worked at non profits that talked that way and meant positive things like:
      – We aren’t trying to cut overhead to the bone: you’ll have the resources you need
      – We use modern technology, approach to project planning, etc
      – We hire strong people and pay competitively enough to keep them

      Of course, some non profits say those things and don’t deliver. But I’d ask more. about what they mean by it, how they equip staff to meet that roi, etc

  70. Losing hope*

    Is anyone aware of any legitimate websites where one could pick up freelance editing and writing projects? I browsed some listings on Upwork but wasn’t impressed.

    I’m a very experienced tech writer laid off a few months ago after a lengthy illness. I’ve been job hunting intently but it’s slow going. Medical issues prevent me from being onsite daily, so temping isn’t a great option. I’m basically out of money and it would be helpful if I could pick up some work in the meantime.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I don’t have any suggestions, but I did try Upwork and it seemed like a scam to me. I don’t think any of the postings I came across were legitimate, legal, or sane. The one person I connected with was either a bot or a creep. Or a creepy bot. Plus it took me forever to get them to stop sending me stuff. I think I ended up just having to block their email even though I unsubscribed upwards of a dozen times.

      1. Losing hope*

        Thanks for the warning! I found it difficult/impossible to find answers to some very basic questions on the site as well. Glad I didn’t sign up.

    2. Dannie*

      A lot of freelance/contract assignments are posted on LinkedIn as regular user posts, rather than on the job board, because doing so is free. So instead of searching under the jobs tab, search your feed using hashtags.

    3. Lore*

      Check out Reedsy. Their cut is a little higher than I’d like but even without the slightest hustle I get invited to bid on 3-4 jobs a month so if you’re actively soliciting you can probably get something interesting.

  71. Employed Minion*

    I have been at my new job for nearly 3 months. It is not a good fit. There are key things I was unaware of before I started and I ignored some unrelated redflags because I needed income.

    It got really bad the first 6 weeks but leveled off. I have started looking for a new job but there will be yearly reviews soon, 3 month review for me. I expect to be asked how I like it etc. what can I say to my boss? When people at the office ask, I usually say I enjoy working with my two coworkers (this is true) but do I need an answer with more substance for my boss?

    Also, any suggestions on what to do with my resume at this time? I was out of work for almost a year before starting here and have only been here for 3 months. Put this job on and hope I get an interview? Then explain its not a good fit? Or leave it off?

    1. Goddess47*

      For the review, especially at only 3 months, you can fall back on “everything is so new and I’m still learning a lot, but A and B have been warm and helpful in helping me as needed”… and this is the time to go ahead and ask about training or skills you should develop, even if you think you may only be working there a short time.

      And ask your colleagues what the reviews are like. They may be routine, check the boxes sort of thing, or more in depth. That’s a legit question, you shouldn’t go into a review without knowing how it works.

      Good luck!

  72. Anonymous Koala*

    How do you thank coworkers for doing something above and beyond in a remote office setting? I’ve been on leave this week for surgery, and my team all chipped in and sent me a very nice get-well basket of treats. I’d like to thank them, but I’m not sure how beyond the normal thank-you notes. If we were in the office, I’d bring in breakfast or pastries my first day back as a little token of appreciation. But I’m not sure what to do now that we’re remote – any ideas? I don’t have access to their addresses (I’m not sure how they got mine – probably through HR via my boss) or personal cell numbers.

      1. WellRed*

        This! You could include a bit about how awesome the cookies and crossword puzzles were or whatever.

  73. the cat's pajamas*

    The story about the New York runner who had his own photo featured in his rejection letter felt so much like an AAM story, even though it’s technically not work. Given our current marketing culture, I could totally see this kind of thing happening in a job rejection though.
    I’m glad there was a positive outcome though. Posting link to the story as a reply.

    2. Alex*

      Why would anyone put a guy making finger guns saying “better luck next year” on a rejection anyway? That feels so rude!

  74. Jedi*

    What’s it like being a dispatcher? I saw a job opening for one, but I’m not entirely sure what they’re dispatching. It’s not 911, I know that much. It said it would need good excel skills, what level of excel skills do they typically require? Do dispatching jobs tend to be stressful or chaotic?

    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Could be dispatching pretty much anything. Plumbers, electricians or other repair-type jobs get dispatched to where they are needed.
      Could be equipment instead. Send a front end loader to this company at this job site. Have this crop dusting airplane loaded and at the same airport as the pilot. That kind of thing.
      Could be truckers or other delivery services.
      Etc etc
      Sounds like they keep all their needs in Excel spreadsheets, but I can’t possibly know what level of skill you might need.
      I’ve never worked as a dispatcher, but I imagine there’s a needed level of flexibility and ability to make adjustments as the day goes by. Some chaos is inevitable, but probably not every day. Whether that’s a stressful thing to you or not, I can’t say.

  75. NewNonprofitMgr*

    I supervise several salaried employees on a hybrid WFH/in-office team that is 100% a customer service, coverage-based job. One of my employees, Oscar, is a wonderful employee. He’s bright, enthusiastic, and very good at his job with minimal supervision. He has no desire to move up in the company- just wants to come in, do a great job, and go home. Our company allows salaried workers to take off up to 4 hours without having to use PTO for things like a doctors appointment, picking up a sick kid, etc.

    The problem is that Oscar uses this flexibility far more than any of my other employees and any other member of our team. If he wasn’t in a customer-facing job, I wouldn’t particularly care because his other work is always done well and on-time, but if he’s not answering the phones, my other employees are having to pick up the slack.

    I very much want to allow Oscar the flexibility that’ll keep him happy in this position and he’s not technically doing anything against our policies, but I wanted to hear some opinions on how more experienced managers view this and whether I need to do anything about it.

    1. One HR Opinion*

      “Our company allows salaried workers to take off up to 4 hours without having to use PTO for things like a doctors appointment, picking up a sick kid, etc.”

      When companies have policies like this, they are generally intended to be used on an occasional basis and not to nickel-and-dime people out of their PTO. I’d have a conversation about how his frequent use affects his coworkers and set some expectations/boundaries around how often is acceptable. Sometimes people don’t realize how often they are using this flexibility until they see it in writing. I’ve had people use 10 weeks of intermittent FMLA without even realizing the extent of their absences.

    2. Hyaline*

      Ooof, it seems like Oscar isn’t doing anything wrong, it’s just that he’s using a benefit more than others are–either because of unspoken company culture, guilt on other team member’s parts (the same kind where people don’t use their PTO), or actual higher instance of need on Oscar’s part. If fair use of the policy is leading to inequity, maybe it’s not a great policy! There’s something almost Kantian there…the “something is unethical if it’s a problem if everyone did it all the time” measure of ethics :P That is, if a policy isn’t actually practical as written if it were used to its full extent by everyone all the time, it’s not a great policy. What limits exist on this policy (4 hours…per day? Week? Pay period? Biannual review period)? Is there room for you to put limits if not that might make things more equitable (“without specific prior approval, 4 hours per X period”?).

      You *could* just talk to him if it’s creating a hardship for your team when it comes to coverage, but it also could get into choppy waters–since he’s not doing anything wrong and there’s something kind of icky about a stance that’s basically “we’re giving you this benefit but we’d rather you not use it much.” If it’s mostly an annoyance, I’d chalk it up to one of those things you just let go. If it has the potential to be a major issue for coverage (say, if everyone made like Oscar), I’d approach it from a policy angle.

    3. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      If this had been the policy at one of my former companies (that employees could take up to 4 hours off without having to use PTO, and there was no limit specified saying how often they could take 4 hours off), some employees would have left 4 hours early Every Single Day (and would have been paid just as much as if they had stayed until the work day was over).

  76. Anon for this one*

    I’m currently job searching and I’m wondering if there are other types of roles/titles that I should be looking at. My experience is mostly in overseeing customer facing roles (typically support teams, but also onboarding and success teams) at a mid-senior to senior level. I’m currently looking for Head of, Director of, Senior Mgr, etc. roles in support and success with all their potential titles (that I can think of). I’m also looking at roles overseeing tech support teams, which I also have experience in, but many of those are wanting more programming skills than I currently possess (this is a work in progress).

    Is there another type of role I could move into with these skills? Not really looking to start over from scratch, but willing to move backwards a level if needed. I feel like I’ve been pretty “typecasted” at this point, but figured you all here might have some ideas!

  77. Not My Usual Name*

    Any advice for dealing with “support” from colleagues who really should not be involved in the situation–and the undermining jerk who pulled them in?

    While I was resolving an issue for a client, they mentioned the issue (and the fact that I was resolving it) in passing to Sam, who works for a completely separate team entirely unrelated to the issue. Imagine that I am an engineer and Sam works finance.

    The issue was the first I have had with this client–we have a strong relationship, and they have always given me great feedback. The issue was completely resolved within a few hours. All good on the client-facing front.

    But, for reasons that I do not understand, Sam flagged the issue for many members of his team, all of whom have nothing to do with the issue, and almost all of whom do not even know the client. Sam never followed up with me directly.

    I learned about this as I started getting bombarded by “supportive” messages from random members of Sam’s team, wanting to know more about the issue and how the resolution went. This is in no way relevant to any of their jobs, and, given the technical nature of the issue, they certainly would not be able to help in any way.

    I”ve been sending polite messages that say something like “this is already resolved. We did x, and y, and the client is happy.” But I really want to say that this is distracting and unhelpful gossip.

    I know the bigger issue is Sam, who showed terrible judgement. I have already circled back and asked him directly to please bring any engineering concerns about this client to me in the future. But I have to work with him a lot, and this has really made me hate him.

    How do I get over the feeling that this is just middle school gossip, or an effort to undermine me? How can I move forward with Sam and his team?

    1. MsM*

      I understand not wanting to deal with Sam right now, but I think maybe a follow-up conversation might be in order to explain that you’re trying to move past this, but you’re still struggling to understand why he thought involving the whole team was a good idea in the first place. Maybe it’s just a culture difference in how they operate. Or maybe he’s particularly anxious about this client for some reason, and you can give him some reassurance that stuff like this happens all the time and he really doesn’t need to worry about it.

    2. Turingtested*

      I’m in a role where I often get feedback about other departments and I can’t address it myself, in other words Sam I Am. it can be very challenging to convey information to only the right people. If he’s generally a good coworker, let him know that he can refer such issues to only you in the future. If he’s generally an ass, I have no advice as he probably won’t listen to you.

  78. DancinProf*

    If a couple members of a small team have to miss an “appreciation” event that we only get to do a couple of times a year (think “boss takes the team out for a meal”), is it expected/appropriate/necessary for them to get some other token of appreciation, like a little gift or gift card?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Generally, yes, I think it’s a good idea to give team members who can’t make the “event” (lunch or whatever it happens to be) a different token of appreciation.

      If it’s appreciation for a specific project or team, I think that moves the needle from “good idea” closer to “necessary” for people who were involved with the project/are on the team.

      If the employees who miss the event have to miss it because of the structure of the job (ex. someone has to stay behind to answer phones), then an alternate token of appreciation is definitely necessary.

      If it’s a general appreciation event (ex. once a quarter happy hour) and the people who miss out are on vacation or happen to be sick that day, eh, life happens. Alternate token of appreciation would be nice, but is not necessary.

    2. Colette*

      It’s appropriate, but I wouldn’t necessarly say it’s required. A personalized note thanking them for things they specifically did would be nice – and probably more valuable than a $10 gift card.

    3. Tx_Trucker*

      We are a 24/7 operation. When someone is “left behind” for coverage they get a gift card. But if anyone else needs to miss an event because they are sick, on vacation, at a conference, etc. we don’t offer them anything.

    4. bobbi*

      I don’t have a recommendation.

      My experience: I have not attended work-sponsored indoor dining events (team appreciation) since 2020 as I am very covid-averse. There’s been 3 events of them so far. My decision has been dealt with as a personal choice and not only do I not get free food, I also have to work during those hours.

  79. Jedi*

    Is it worth taking a college class (or several) for things you struggle to get yourself to study on your own, even if that information is free? I think learning excel and other office-job computer programs would help me a lot in getting me out of my menial labor job, but I can’t seem to do anything with consistency unless there’s some external pressure. Paying $200+ (after pell) for something I can learn for free seems silly. But I’ve tried to teach myself and I just don’t stick with it.
    (I haven’t been diagnosed, but I strongly suspect I have ADHD)

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I think it can be. It’s hard to think about when the options you’re comparing are:
      (1) learn excel for free
      (2) learn excel for $200
      Because option (1) looks like the obviously correct choice.

      But what you’re really dealing with is:
      (1) don’t learn excel
      (2) learn excel for $200

      Is the likely increase in salary/quality-of-life/etc. worth the $200 it would cost for you to learn excel? If the class is worth the cost, take it!

      1. Antilles*

        Agreed. I’ll also note that for some people (raises hand), the motivation booster of “I already paid for this” very much helps you actually do it.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Not silly! If you want to learn something and that’s the way it will work for you, then it’s worth it. You could also think of it as paying for the teaching vs the information :)

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      Can you apply some external pressure that isn’t money? Like working with someone else on this same goal to keep pace with each other? Or making your desire to learn this public to your friend group?

      If you do have ADHD, learning something on your own can be a daunting task, because learning something like Excel from a book seems like a bunch of bingo balls in a cage. How do you pick just one?

      So maybe instead of saying “I’m going to learn Excel” maybe start thinking about this in terms of “I’m going to learn how to do X with Excel”. You don’t even have to pick what X is. Just google “excel skills list” and then pick one.

    4. A Girl Named Fred*

      Things are worth what we decide they’re worth. That sounds glib, but I mean it to be freeing – it doesn’t matter whether anyone else thinks it’s worth it, it matters whether you think it’s worth it.

      With that said, I agree that if this is a skill you want to learn and paying for a class is the best way to get yourself to follow through, then it’s totally worth it! Hlao-roo makes an excellent point about what your options look like versus what they actually are – and for the record, you’re not alone in this. I’ve been “meaning to” learn about twelve thousand skills (okay, maybe fewer than that) over the past decade+ and never follow through, so I’ve been making the same calculation. I think it’s Captain Awkward who says that sometimes, the best way to solve a problem is with money – maybe this is one of those times.

    5. I got this*

      Paying to be forced to do something that is otherwise free is a fairly universal thing. It’s why paying for a workout class or yoga class makes sure you do something that you could “otherwise do for free”. People almost never keep up the “free” thing, but they look at a class as an obligation and do it. So, I’d say, definitely do it from that perspective. The other reason, is that the class will (very likely) be structured in a way to teach you things you may not come across on your own, or if you have questions, someone can answer them. That’s reason #2 to take the class.

    6. Graciosa*

      Do you engage well for problem solving?

      If so, you might do something in Excel that interests you and that you can keep improving. I have a spreadsheet that I track monthly with high level information in income, savings, and expenses. I started tracking some years ago so I could set my own assumptions (projected retirement savings and what income it might generate) and better understand my fixed-cost budget (what percentage of my take home pay goes to utilities, insurance, etc.).

      I learned how to link information from one sheet to another early on, then how to make calculations in multiple cells based on a specific cell. I’ve gotten to the point of being comfortable with conditional formatting in order to highlight successes and problem areas.

      I don’t check on my paycheck details every month, but I did this week. Conditional formatting and some formulas identified issues with my withholding and I updated my W-4’s. My take home pay is going up!

      I can *use* pivot tables at work, but I haven’t had a reason to make them, so that’s still a gap –

      I don’t know if you have any kind of a numbers thing that would interest you (Moneyball?) or why you want to get better at Excel, but if it’s not absolutely critical maybe you can do it slowly over time? I’ve remember things better if I learned because *I* wanted to figure out a particular problem – but YMMV.

    7. RagingADHD*

      The thing that works is always worth more than something that doesn’t work.

    8. GythaOgden*

      Try Udemy. Their course is amazing, rigorous and well-led, and while it generally sells for £60 (in the UK), you can often get a really deep discount, like slashed down to £10 or so.

      You won’t get a certificate for it but it would show you how to do a lot with Excel and figure out if working with it would be your bag.

  80. NewNonprofitMgr*

    I supervise several salaried employees on a hybrid WFH/in-office team that is 100% a customer-service coverage-based job. One of my employees, Oscar, is a wonderful employee. He’s bright, enthusiastic, and very good at his job with mimimal supervision. He has no desire to move up in the company- just wants to come in, do a great job, and go home. Our company allows salaried workers to take off up to 4 hours without having to use PTO for things like a doctors appointment, picking up a sick kid, etc.

    The problem is that Oscar uses this flexibility far more than any of my other employees. If he wasn’t in a customer-facing job, I wouldn’t particularly care because his other work is always done well and on-time, but if he’s not answering the phones, someone else is having to pick up the slack.

    I very much want to allow Oscar the flexibility that’ll keep him happy in this position and he’s not technically doing anything against our policies, but I wanted to hear some opinions on how more experienced managers view this and whether I need to do anything about it.

    1. Colette*

      What do you want?

      Let’s assume his absences are legitimate. (There are many reasons why someone might have more medical appointments than others, for example.) What could he do to minimize the impact on the team? More notice? Try to book appointments at the beginning/end of the day?

      If there is nothing he can do, I’d let it go. You don’t want to start tracking/judging people based on their medical needs.

      1. NewNonprofitMgr*

        He often shares the reasons with me as his manager, but they’re almost never medical and more personal.

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          I’m confused in this case. You say the policy is for things like “things like a doctors appointment, picking up a sick kid, etc” which seem medical in nature. But you also say that “he’s not technically doing anything against our policies”. It seems like there is a disconnect somewhere.

          Is the policy clear that this time should only be used for medical issues? Or is there an unstated expectation that this time should only be used for medical issues? If so, is that expectation coming from you or from the management above you? Does this policy need rewording or clarification?

          You say that if he’s not there answering the phones that other people have to pick up the slack, but what happens if other people take advantage of this policy? Who picks up the slack then? Oscar? Or is Oscar the only person in this role? It doesn’t sound like it, so maybe trying to get more of a heads-up on these absences might make it easier to balance out the workload.

        2. Colette*

          I think context matters here. If he’s meeting with the bank because he’s setting a parent’s estate that’s different than taking off early because he wants to take his kid to the park which is different than leaving early to pick up his car before the garage closes.

          Some of those read to me as not covered by the policy; others might be. But if they’re in a gray area and you think he’s doing it too often, you can say that. “Hi Steve, you’ve been losing a lot of appointment time for things that aren’t medical – can you keep non-medical stuff to one appointment per month?”

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        I agree – what is the problem here? (Genuine question!) You need to know that in order to figure out what to do, if anything.

        You say that when he isn’t there to answer the phones, someone else has to. Does this mean that other people are falling behind on their work to cover his? Are the wait times too long for other customers due to his absence? Are other people missing out on using this flexibility because Oscar is already using it? Is he missing metrics related to call numbers?

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I agree with defining what you want / is acceptable

      Our company allows salaried workers to take off up to 4 hours without having to use PTO for things like a doctors appointment, picking up a sick kid, etc.

      How much is allowed? Did the company not define it and now perhaps you need to define it. You can use this, but you must give us advance notice (hard to do for a sick kid problem). You can do this no more than two – three times a month and then you need to take PTO even if it’s not the whole day.

    3. Alex*

      What does the policy say? Are there any limits and guidelines around using it? Is there language like “as long as it doesn’t interfere with your work”? If so, sit him down and say that his frequent absences have been a bit more than his workload can withstand and it has been putting pressure on his coworkers to pick up when he is absent.

      If not, well, that is a problem with the policy rather than with Oscar. It isn’t fair to have a policy but then have secret expectations that employees are held to without them knowing.

    4. BellyButton*

      I would tell him that the amount of time he is using is excessive and it is putting too much extra work on the rest of the team. Let him know if it is for an appointment for himself or his child it is fine, but you need him to be more aware of how it is impacting others. If there is no limit on how often this can be used it should be spelled out for customer facing roles.

    5. WellRed*

      My question is, when he uses this benefit dies he always take the four hours? Cause that’s a bit different and yo me, not the spirit in which it us intended.

  81. Indoor_Kitty*

    I want to say thank you to the people who responded to my question last week about addressing my admin’s phrasing when she tells me she’s completed a task (“I already did it” to mean, “I’ve now completed the task you gave me”). You gave me the courage to put on my big girl pants and talk to her (as one person put it, acting as though it’s something she couldn’t possibly have known), and she was grateful for the correction. As suggested by someone else, I also gave her some better phrases to use.

    I also found it very interesting that it’s a common phrasing “mistake” among people whose first language isn’t English. It was helpful to know that!

  82. Alice*

    Any suggestions about to-do list apps or websites that let you expand/collapse subtasks that make up a task, with deadlines for subtasks? (Not just deadlines for tasks)
    Thanks!

    2. Nocturna*

      Todoist. Can also handle subtasks of subtasks, etc, all with their own deadlines.

    3. BigLawEx*

      I like Asana for this. It’s not too bad of a learning curve. I’ve tried all three, but I’ve found none of these intuitive. What helped was committing to one. (I had to when someone else was using it to work on a joint project).

  83. goddessoftransitory*

    Lighter side work question: what totally inadvertent skills have you acquired as a result of your work? Maybe tangentially related but not something you’d automatically put on your resume?

    Mine are getting very good at calculating percentages, and pronouncing peoples’ names. Neither are required to get hired where I work, but both are superpowers for me now. How about everyone else?

    2. AnonAdmin*

      Courtesy of prior jobs before current one: can usually troubleshoot a copier if I can find the manual (or at least give a detailed “what’s wrong” to the rep), use a wide-format printer, and give enough details to IT that they know my printer/phone/computer is well and truly broke.

      I also always have a toolkit of some kind in my desk.

    3. Betty Spaghetti*

      Recognizing photos of our properties. I can tell you which property it is out of approximately 279 total, sometimes even just by looking at the neighboring structures in the background of the shot. I even hold an award for it, we had a contest and I blew my coworkers away.

    5. Indoor_Kitty*

      Remembering names of previous correspondents who have written to my government department. You write more than once, I *will* remember you. For cross-reference purposes, that is.

    6. The Prettiest Curse*

      From years of working events – how to enter or leave a room very, very quietly.

    7. A Significant Tree*

      Tracking down original source material for things that require a reference. Related – I’m very good at determining whether text has been plagiarized. I recently had to give that feedback to professionals in my field who cut/paste entire sections of other documents into their report – you can quote and cite all you want, but you can’t make it look like you wrote this bit.

      1. Elle Woods*

        I have this same skill, thanks to grad school. It’s embarrassing how many people don’t know it’s not acceptable to copy & paste without giving proper credit.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Did you work at a jewelry store? If not, I’m really curious about where you learned this and why/how.

    9. bobbi*

      I can Admin. I know how to answer questions on forms ‘correctly’ (official forms for use in data entry and/or analysis). I know how to relate to admin staff just doing their work – they aren’t there to catch you out. I can relate one piece of the administration puzzle to another when there are multiple forms to fill out for a government process.

  84. Help! Moving*

    I took a new job (hybrid, 2 days a week) in September (after a 6 month interview process and after nearly 5 years with a company that absolutely destroyed my mental/physical health) and not long after my partner learned that his funding would very likely not be renewed for the following (24-25) academic year and began to apply for jobs (the notice was given very early so he could apply on the standard hiring cycle timeline). When I took the new job, I knew there was a possibility that my partner would need to get a new job but it wasn’t a given. We had hoped that he would find a job in our current city (or within a few hours, so I could still come into the office once or twice a week), but now that the dust has settled, he is taking a job 6 hours away in a somewhat remote place so I will have to leave my job after about 8 months and I am very sad but also terrified that I won’t be able to get another job and that my current company will be angry with me (small, sub 50 ppl family owned company with several people about to go out on leave right around when I will need to quit). My partners new job pays more than what we both make combined currently in an area with a much lower cost of living (we live in a hcol coastal city) and it’s a 5 year contract (tenure track academia, his non-academia options paid 3x out combine income but still weren’t in our current city.). I can also be on his (very good) health insurance (I can’t add him to my employer sponsored health insurance for when he loses his job and the insurance is pretty crappy anyways). Moving is absolutely what’s right for us, but I am losing career opportunities as a result and am looking for advice on how to exit my job gracefully (how long should I give notice wise?) and how to explain an 8 month stay and a relocation for future jobs.

    1. BellyButton*

      It does such that when someone is in academia the other person’s career often suffers. Do you think your company would let you go fully remote. Maybe offer to come in for 3 days once a month?

      Good luck!

      1. Help! Moving*

        thank you! I forgot to include that there are no entirely remote employees (pre-2020 everyone was in the office 5 days a week). There are a couple of very senior people with very long tenures who just come in a few times a month (once a week for the specifically required in office day).

        I think they might ask me to stay on part time (I’m the only one in my role and it’s a bit niche and hard to fill), but I predict that decision would make me unpopular with coworkers and also create a tense environment with the CEO (who I work with daily and is a bit difficult and who doesn’t really believe remote work is work). If we weren’t moving, I’d probably be starting to look for a new job around now anyways bc it turns out the small family owned company has a lot of internal politics and a rather unpleasant working environment that was definitely intentionally obscured during the hiring process

    2. BellyButton*

      The standard 2 weeks notice will be fine unless their culture is to give more. People understand that people have to quit and move for their spouse. It happens.

    3. I got this*

      Would you be willing to work fully remote? If so, and it makes sense for your job, I’d pitch that to them. Also, the “losing career opportunities” is a bit of a worry. Could you & hubby be separated for a few months, to make it a full year at the new place? I’m also wondering about the TT grind – that can be pretty harsh.

    4. Momma Bear*

      Once things are certain, give them a long notice period like a month instead of two weeks. They may or may not like losing you, but all’s fair in business, including yours. You are making a life change that is right for you/your family. Do not worry about who might/might not also be on leave when you go. Leave gracefully and you’ll likely still have good references. We had people join us and find out that their spouse was being transferred to a duty station they did not expect. These things happen.

      As for explaining, a short version of what you said here – you took a job, his job changed unexpectedly, and you both relocated for his new role. You are now settled and looking for longterm employment in that area.

      Also, if you are hybrid, do you have to leave-leave or can you ask to work all 5 days remotely?

    5. Help! Moving*

      thank you all! My job doesn’t really pay enough to make living on my own in this city doable (the rental market is tough and what we pay in rent here is about 1k more than what our mortgage would be in the new place for some houses we are looking at). If I stayed in my own, it would be purely for the resume/lasting a year because virtually all of my take home pay would need to go towards rent. The office is hard to access via public transport and we only have one car that my partner will absolutely need in the new location, so that makes staying here alone a very very expensive endeavor. I work in a very competitive but also notably low paid field (ie my partners grad school living stipend was more than my salary some years).

      1. WellRed*

        Hmm. Not sure on your math here ( if you really would consider staying a bit). Partner will make more than both of you combined but if you move, you won’t have a job for a bit. The cost of living is a lot cheaper there. But if you stay you’ll have his much larger salary plus your current salary. Unless part of the calculation is that you would need to get a second car? If you could easily afford to stay for a few more months, would you even want to?

    6. DefinitiveAnn*

      My spouse is an academic, and they have taken a tenure track position at small town college. We are moving on August. I understand that fully remote work is not available; I’ll be happy to help out part-time if you have trouble filling the role.

      For new employers: my spouse is an academic, as a trailing spouse I’m so excited that they are on a tenure track and to put down roots in the community.

  85. Off Plumb*

    There have been questions here about how to handle pets on camera, and I thought folks would get a kick out of this:

    I was in a Teams meeting in which a very senior manager’s cat was desperate for attention. She tried just moving the cat off the desk, but it didn’t work. Cat was head-butting her face, arching its back and elevating its butt, etc. And she ended up just… ignoring it. Even when a good portion of her face was blocked from view, she maintained eye contact with her camera and stayed totally stoic. The other people on video also did not (visibly) react at all. (I had my camera and microphone off, and I was dying.) The meeting was a success, and I hope the manager wasn’t upset with the cat, because we were all delighted by it, not to mention impressed by her ability to keep a perfect poker face in, shall we say, cat-ass-trophic conditions.

    1. BellyButton*

      LOL my company loves it when pets make an appearance! In fact if I go a whole meeting without my little dog showing up people ask for him. We are such a pet and family friendly place. All our internal org chart photos are photos people have snagged of us with our pet or child. One employee has a bearded dragon that is always on his shoulder. We love all the animals!

  86. MigraineMonth*

    I’m having some post-toxic job issues. I discovered a serious mistake that I made at work. I’ve alerted the appropriate people, taken full responsibility, fixed it going forward… but I can’t shake this feeling of panic and dread. It’s the kind of mistake that would have gotten me in serious trouble at old Toxic!Job, and even though I know that’s not the case at my current job, I’m stuck in a really bad mental place.

    Any advice for getting through an emotional rough patch?

    1. Hatchet*

      We all make mistakes, but it’s how we react afterwards that people notice. It sounds like you’ve done all the post-mistakes correctly (taken responsibility, etc). I think feeling bad about making a mistake is just part of being human. It’s okay that you feel your feelings. But trust in your ability to do your job and trust that if it was a bigger issue, then new job would have told you. Also, if you have flexibility in your tasks, maybe focus on doing some of those tasks that you are easier and/or that you have more confidence in doing well. Then work yourself back up to the more difficult tasks. You can do this! Good luck!

  87. Anonymoose*

    I am spending this weekend scouring the archives here for help with a manager who is emotionally manipulative and currently is very upset at the team and not talking to us because recent feedback reflected poorly on her. She favours our missing stair, does not listen, is all about her being the centre of attention at events, and a majority of the team have been on some form of short or long term leave because of burnouts in the last couple of years. No strategy no clarity on work tasks for many people and a lot of non delivery. She does not like to manage but loves projects. Our team is suffering a lot. Not enough comms so looping her in gets the reply there are too many comms groups…. am so tired. My help will be found in the archives here I hope.

  88. Balanceofthemis*

    A couple months ago a study was published about biases in hiring. It was an analysis of anonymous surveys done with HR people and hiring managers across industries in the US.

    The part of it that was relevant to me, and the group that was discussing it, was that 38% of HR/hiring managers said that they would not hire anyone the knew to be, or thought was, Jewish. Conventional wisdom says that the actual number of people who hold that view is actually probably higher, as people wouldn’t necessarily trust the anonymity of the survey.

    I have previously worked for 2 Jewish organizations and I’m in the middle of a very difficult and long lasting job hunt. I know things aren’t great in a number of industries, and competition is high. But some of the questions I’m being asked in the few interviews I am getting, especially around those jobs, are making me think this is affecting my ability to get a new job.

    In theory I should be happy not to be hired into an organization that has a problem with my being Jewish, but I’m not in a place where I can realistically be picky, especially in my niche. Advice, commiseration, and/or moral support are appreciated.

    1. Anonymous for this one*

      Speaking as another Jewish person, I am so sorry you are having to think about this and getting inappropriate questions in interviews, and I hope you’re able to land somewhere you are valued.

      Speaking as someone with a background in surveys, I have found that a lot of these types of employer surveys that get a lot of press are also VERY sketchy in terms of their survey methods, the questions they ask, the way they characterize their findings or all of the above. I haven’t seen the one you mention, but that number strikes me as improbably high for a share of HR people willing to admit they would explicitly discriminate against a religious group, and I would not necessarily take it at face value as accurate.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Also a Jewish person with a background in survey and I agree with you– plus I remember that survey. While I don’t remember the specifics, the percentages presented were very overblown; they were percentages of smaller groups, so you’re looking at a sub-group of a sub-group (and possibly of another sub-group).

        That’s not to say it’s not a concern at all or at any level. I would just say that I would put greater weight on the interviews you’re having than on the results of that survey.

        1. Balanceofthemis*

          I generally don’t jump right to anti-Semitism, but there has been a definite note of hostility when speaking about those jobs. And questions and comments made by interviewers that aren’t obviously anti-Semitic, but are.

    2. Maggie*

      I would be shocked but anti-semitism is so wildly prevalent I’m sadly not. That really really sucks.

  89. Lizy*

    Asking for a raise question… I’ve been with my company 2.5 years, and this year in particular have taken on some pretty major update-type-projects. My company has been pretty decent about raises/pay increases (over 3% each year), but more mooonnnneeeeyyyy is always good lol. So on the one hand, I’d like to prep my case for a raise and/or title bump this fall prior to reviews. On the other hand, my company already does decent raises, so part of me feels a little entitled assholy for asking… And I’m an admin, so the “promoting” thing is kinda…
    Should I just stick it out, knowing my company will (very likely) do me at least a half-solid? Or do I ask for a raise and/or title bump, and if so, how much? And WHEN do I ask for it? Before reviews, or after I know I get x% raise and I say “I’d like x+3%” or whatever?

    1. BellyButton*

      3% is an ok raise, but that doesn’t even cover the COL increases! So ask. I would put together a document outlining the additional/more senior work you do compared to when you were hired. This will give a clear indication that you are working above your current level. And with that level increase you can also ask for a raise. Research what a senior admin role is being paid to give you an idea of how much more to ask for.

  90. Moving On*

    When I first started in my industry, I was 24 and finishing up a master’s degree. I interviewed for internships (required as part of my degree) all over North America, but ended up taking an internship in the same town where I was studying, which was coincidentally where I had also done my undergrad. When I finished my internship, I again interviewed all over North America, but ultimately was offered and accepted a job at the company I’d interned at. I’ve now been there, and happy, for over 7 years.

    But I’m now leaving, and facing freelancing, which is quite common in the field. I’ve been resistant to the concept as I’ve always thought of it as a balancing act of doing my job and self-promoting, which I don’t like. I’m just not a schmoozer!

    I have two things going in my favor: first, I am in a lucky financial position and if I go a little while with not a lot of work, I’ll be okay. Second, I’ve been an extremely high achiever for 7 years, not only within my own company (which will likely be one of my main freelance clients) but with an industry association that’s gotten my name out there in a good, prestigious way. I’ve written documents that are now being used industry-wide and people know this about me. I’ve served on committees, spoken on panels. People now reach out to me out of the blue asking for my advice.

    So, great.

    But I’m still so nervous about the switch! Especially the getting-new-clients part. Do I just…email people and tell them I’m available? Can I do that from my current institutional email address? My company does know I’m leaving, but is that considered unsportsmanlike conduct?

    1. Goddess47*

      At a minimum, as a freelancer you will be a ‘consultant’ at any organization you work with. So you will be paid through a 1099 form (in the US). Which means you are a small business.

      Get a business email address, a business account at the bank, and even a teeny business web site (start with a simple wordpress site). Contact your local small business association. They can help you with some of that. Or pay the money to an organization that will take care of all of that for you.

      Never use your current employers email to solicit work. You want to be able to contact people in the future and you’ll lose that when your current employer shuts down your email. (And, yes, it’s unsportsmanlike!)

      Good luck!

      1. Moving On*

        Thank you! Can I at least use my current company’s email address to let people know where they’ll be able to reach me? Or should I just wait until I have a website and freelance email address set up, and hope that people recognize me by name?

        1. WellRed*

          My earlier reply still hasn’t shown up so. Don’t use your current work email for this. One exception: you could probably mention it in passing case by case: “it’s been great working with you in this project. I’m leaving at the end of May to launch consulting for me.” Get your freelance email set up now and update LI if you use it.

  91. Person from the Resume*

    I agree with defining what you want / is acceptable

    Our company allows salaried workers to take off up to 4 hours without having to use PTO for things like a doctors appointment, picking up a sick kid, etc.

    How much is allowed? Did the company not define it and now perhaps you need to define it. You can use this, but you must give us advance notice (hard to do for a sick kid problem). You can do this no more than two – three times a month and then you need to take PTO even if it’s not the whole day.

  92. Orange You Glad*

    I want to plan more team events when my department is in person in the office this year. I want to send out a survey to get everyone’s preferences and suggestions for things like lunches or other group outings. Can anyone point to a good resource with an inclusive list of dietary/food preferences that I should include? Should I take any other things into account? It would be for 6-8 people.

    1. Alex*

      There’s no inclusive list of food restrictions. Just ask people for their food restrictions in a fill-in-the-blank way. If it is just 8 people it shouldn’t be too complex. (I’m allergic to something that no one expects someone to be allergic to).

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Agreed.

        Can you word a survey like

        1) Want to have
        2) Don’t like/eat, but not a dealbreaker
        3) Don’t/can’t eat

        The “don’t/can’t” pretty much allows people to include their religious or health restrictions without naming them as such because they can also include things they don’t like, unless of course they say something like “anything with gluten”.

      2. Elsewise*

        I agree. Doing fill in the blank also allows people to state preferences that aren’t allergies, or clarify specific needs, like if they have cross-contamination concerns.

      3. The Prettiest Curse*

        The way I do it for the one food-focused event that I plan is the registration form has a question saying “please enter any dietary or allergy requirements here” and then people can write whatever they want. This works well for our purposes, and I think it’s best to let people describe their needs in their own words.

  93. Spurry*

    I just finished a job interview for a job that I’m feeling a lot of different ways about. I would appreciate any advice on these things!

    1) The interview went really well and I was told that there might be a 2nd round if they had good candidates, or they might offer the job next week. We ran out of time that I didn’t get to ask a couple more questions (about the day to day, commute, is there a commute benefit or hybrid option.) I figured if there’d be a 2nd round I could ask. But what if I do get offered the position? Is it ok to ask those questions with an offer? Or is that seen as rude?

    2) The job is a brand new position. When they described the work, it sounded exciting and challenging but it also made me think “They’re going to probably realize in a couple of years that this position might need to be split into two positions” because it was a lot of different tasks they were hoping this person could do. Because of that, I was going to ask for more money (if offered the role) because the scope is quite a bit more than the job description. Is that fair to ask? Should I mention that in why I ask for more or just state my number?

    3) They mentioned that the culture of the larger company (it’s a huge school district) has not been great (appreciate the transparency) but also the immediate team has been actively working to create a bubble and make the work environment better on their team. It doesn’t seem like the role would have too much interaction with the larger company outside the team, but I’m sure there’s influence. Would you join a company with a not great general culture, but a good team culture. I spoke with a random person on LinkedIn who works on the team and they had positive things to say at least!

    1. BellyButton*

      1- you absolutely should and can ask those question at the time of the offer. You need all that information to make sure you want to work for them.

      2- I would do some research to see what that role is making other places and make sure they are offering you a fair amount and you can also ask for more.

      3- This is a tricky one for me. I turned down 4 job offers before accepting my current role because culture is so important to me- and is part of my job!

      Good luck! Let us know what happens :)

    2. JelloStapler*

      I asked a lot of questions after the offer to be sure it was the right fit. It was fine!

  94. Anon Prosecutor*

    I (W/M/late 40s) am a prosecutor in a small city. Yesterday, my coworker, Fergus (W/M/early 40s) handled a shoplifting case that took a weird twist.

    Defendant has no criminal history, was pregnant at the time, and told the officer she was stealing food for her toddler and herself because she had no money and no job. (Sadly, not uncommon…) She came to court yesterday with her 6 week old baby. A standard outcome is to have the defendant do “First Offender,” where they take an online class, do community service, and don’t break any laws for a year. If they succeed, the charge is dismissed. Given this woman’s very poor financial state, defense counsel asked Fergus if instead, he would agree to a similar status that just requires good behavior for 12 months. (Defense counsel said his client could not afford the online class and because of having 2 kids under age 3, was not sure she could find child care to allow her time to do community service.) Fergus agreed.

    But when they took it to the judge (B/F/60s), she refused to accept it. She said if she accepted it for a “white woman” (Defendant was white) she would have to do the same for a black woman, or Hispanic woman, or Asian woman. Fergus and I (who are the attorneys who handle most misdemeanors in our office) are of the opinion that we would make the same deal for any defendant in that circumstance.

    To be fair, I put a black woman on “first offender” yesterday morning. However… (1) said black woman was not a single mom with 2 kids under age 3, (2) said black woman stole beauty supplies, not food, (3) it was the same defense attorney, but nothing was said to me about anything other than first offender, and (4) nothing was said to me or the judge about said black woman’s financial status.

    I am willing to admit that maybe Fergus and I are missing something since we are both white men. Could someone with a different perspective please tell me if there is something we should be taking into account?

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      What the hell is up with that judge? Why is she so damn focused on the race of the defendant?

      And this is why if I see people stealing baby food I just don’t say a damn thing.

    2. BellyButton*

      What in the world?? Let’s make this woman’s situation worse by requiring her to spend money she doesn’t have and take more money from her food budget. That is just awful.

    3. Treena*

      The judge is afraid she’ll feel forced into treating POC more kindly if she is kind to white defendants, so she’d rather just be harsh with everyone. She’s likely being racist. Or just is one of those people that doesn’t buy in to the fact that life circumstances drive behavior/crime.

      1. Potatohead*

        What makes it doubly weird that the judge is a POC herself if I interpreted B/F/60’s correctly.

    4. All The Time*

      There are many well documented studies of white defendants and even lighter skin defendants getting more lenient sentences or lesser charges, than Black or darker skin defendants. Basically, this judge probably isn’t seeing this option even presented for Black defendants and so isn’t inclined to grant it.

      1. A Significant Tree*

        The way it read to me, the judge doesn’t want to open that door at all but I can see this perspective too.

        Though I would think if the judge wanted to change things, to see this option available to non-White defendants, she would make a point of setting this precedent so that defense could leverage it next time it’s applicable to a non-White defendant.

      2. Anon Prosecutor*

        That is what I was thinking of…

        To be honest, I don’t know that I have ever made that deal for a defendant – black, white, or purple. However, I don’t think I have because first offender has always been the go-to option. I have not had a defense attorney ask about any other option, and since I am the prosecutor, I do not know the defendant’s exact circumstances. In other words, I would not know to ask about this option because I would not know there is a financial problem.

        1. Annie*

          I understand where you’re coming from completely. Many defendants on first offender are happy with not having to spend any more time in jail, and even the defendant who stole beauty products could have been doing so as a means to meet a seemingly unrelated need, e.g. fencing stolen goods to make rent.

          There’s also the question of the biases of the defense attorney, e.g. is the attorney somehow drawing out information about mitigating life circumstances from white defendants than non-white defendants? Are white defendants more likely to volunteer information about mitigating life circumstances than non-white defendants? If so, is it because that disclosure is more likely to work out in favor of white defendants than non-white defendants; or is there another reason?

      3. fhqwhgads*

        Yeah that’s how it read to me. The judge is basically saying she won’t participate in extra-light treatment for white people, since that’s already systematically what happens across the board.

      4. Irish Teacher.*

        I still think she has it the wrong way around. Sadly, I totally believe POC are less likely to get leniency, but the way to deal with that is to make more allowances for POC rather than deciding that “POC get treated badly by the justice system; therefore we should treat white people badly too to make it fairer.”

        And personally, I think it ridiculous to give somebody who stole food for their children the same way as somebody who stole beauty supplies. Those two things are not at all equivalent to me.

    5. anon_sighing*

      It’s creepy how focused the judge is on race. Yes, she should do the same for a black woman, or Hispanic woman, or Asian woman…for anyone, as long as it’s sensible, humane, and in the public interest (this woman not having a criminal record for something she could be on a payment plan for and seems sufficiently remorseful for is for the public interest). Grossly punitive.

      Is there a process for reporting this? Or delay this for a different judge?

      1. Anon Prosecutor*

        Since the judge rejected the plea agreement, she recused herself from hearing the case. It has been reset on a day that I am covering misdemeanor court with a different judge. I do not know who the new judge will be.

        I’ll present the same plea offer to the substitute judge. If they won’t accept it, we’ll go to trial and put the defendant on first offender anyway…

    6. Glomarization, Esq.*

      You might do an informal audit of your cases and look at the demographics and socioeconomic status of defendants where you sought to divert them out of First Offender versus where you didn’t try that option. You might find that your diversion candidates skew white, or you might not, but it could be a useful exercise.

      I’m also thinking the judge has a docket with a lot of cases that start to all look alike and are largely disposed of similarly, so when she saw you bring before her a white defendant with this particular sob story and an unusual request for diversion, it might strike her that she doesn’t recall your bringing before her a POC with a similar sob story and request for diversion. She may have decided that she needs to rule on these cases pretty much solely on the value of the goods shoplifted and put aside her feelings about worthiness for diversion.

    7. JelloStapler*

      The judge sounds unnecessarily punitive – how about you take into account the whole story, Judge?

  95. dorothy zbornak*

    got rejected earlier in the week from a job that would have been a reach for me but I know I could have done it if given the chance. I got past the recruiter, hiring manager, three more people, and then was IMMEDIATELY rejected. Like what was the point of any of that????

    1. Maggie*

      That just sounds like the hiring process to me as frustrating as it is to not be selected

  96. Stuff*

    So my boss and I arranged to have a meeting with an employee today and fire her, and then my boss Gchats me after she comes in that he’s not in the office today and he’s just going to send her a termination email.

    What the actual hell

    Luckily I saw the chat and reacted fast enough that I was able to pull her into my office and fire her in person before my boss got that email sent, because firing someone by email like that just feels so wrong.

    I’m still shaking and full of adrenaline because I cannot believe this. This is my first firing, I’m a brand new manager, I was already dreading this because I’m Autistic and this social situation is just a LOT, and my boss goes and pulls this.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Wow, your boss was not going to handle that well! Fortunately, you did handle it well. Kudos to you for doing the right thing, even though it was hard.

    2. Educator*

      You managed this beautifully, and your boss is a jerk. Honestly useful information to have about him, but I am sorry you had to learn it in such an anxiety-producing way. I hope you can find a way to work off that adrenaline, and as you do, keep repeating to yourself that you did the right thing by your former employee even when that was really hard, and that’s worth celebrating.

    3. 653-CXK*

      Where I worked at ExJob, time card fraud was investigated fervently and a terminatable offense. One guy did over 40 hours of OT per week – but his work was riddled with errors and inconsistencies, and after he ended up getting the gate when they found out what he was doing.

      Your boss is a conflict-avoidant jerk and is not going to change. He should have been there with you at that meeting (and a representative of HR should have been there too) and delivered the termination, yet he weenied out and took the cheap fire by letter route. So sorry this happened to you.

    4. Massive Dynamic*

      You absolutely did the right thing here! Your boss made a horrible call and it’s fantastic that you were able to quickly get ahead of it like that. It still feels bad to fire someone no matter how warranted it is. Treat yourself today to whatever makes you relaxed and happy (special dessert? yoga session? stiff drink?)

    5. anon_sighing*

      There’s something really telling of your character that you were dreading this but still used your panic to do the humane and kind thing. Kudos to you! (And what the heck was your boss thinking??? How callous and cruel.)

      1. Nonn*

        This is both true, and a really kind comment! Good job Stuff and good job Anon_sighing.

  97. Eccaia*

    I did so much for my old job and went above and beyond for them. Recently I moved to a different state, which they won’t approve WFH for permanently, which I get. They promised I could work for them until I get another job at least and that they’d help me find another job, etc. Really played up how much they’d help me, and I believed them! I feel so stupid about it, but they’d held up similar promises before and also abided by them.

    However after a couple weeks they’ve told me I can work up through the current pay period. I asked if I could stay one pay period longer (2 weeks) because I did have another job offer that starts in about 2 weeks. They said no. I asked if I could use my PTO or figure out how to get my 100_ hours of PTO paid out to me. They said they weren’t going to do that.

    Found out it’s because they want to fire my coworker too and wanted to just get us both out at the same time. Because they offloaded our job to a call center instead, which has been working abysmally but god forbid they admit that.

    Idk what to do about this, I’m pretty sure there isn’t anything, I’m just annoyed. It’ll take about 4 weeks total before I can actually see my next paycheck and that’s scary for me and cutting things so close. I was really hoping they’d have my back about this but they want to cut us in favor of their call center.

    I’m not surprised, I’m just disappointed lol.

    1. BellyButton*

      I believe there are currently 20 states that require a company to pay out your PTO. That is your money, you earned those hours. Search your state PTO – go to PTO Genius, it will show the laws for every state. Good luck!

      1. Eccaia*

        Yeah, unfortunately this was not one of those states. I’m just baffled bc I’ve worked for some famously not great companies in this state who DID pay out my PTO. My friend quit quite suddenly on her own terrible employers and they paid out her PTO.

        I’ve seen people get FIRED from this job that have been given their PTO as part of their severance pay, I think it was?

        I’m just like man, I purposefully didn’t use up my PTO in the beginning of the year for this and now…… Lesson learned: Use up all my PTO every year lol (though the state I’m in now does have mandatory paying out of PTO so maybe not so much)

        1. BellyButton*

          I would take it now! Stop working and go on PTO. They don’t deserve anything from you- they led you on and they are stealing 100 hours from you!

        2. Colette*

          If the state you’re working in now requires companies to pay out your PTO, I think your employer might be obligated to pay out your PTO? (I am not a lawyer. Or in the US. But you might want to talk to someone who is.)

        3. Person from the Resume*

          If you are now working in a state the requires a company to pay out PTO, your employer (in another state) has to pay you your PTO. You are working from state X; state X laws apply!

          1. Eccaia*

            Technically I’m not though, I think? My residence is still in State A. For all intents and purposes I was just “visiting” State B while working for them and still “living” in State A. They said I had to do it this way or else I’d have to quit immediately because they didn’t have payroll set up to work from State B. I didn’t have any reason to not believe them since they hadn’t led me astray before.

            I’m not suer if there IS anything I can do to make them give me my PTO but it doesn’t hurt to look into it!

            1. WellRed*

              If you are not approved to work in state B and you are leaving in a couple weeks anyway, they are under no obligation to pay out your PTO and many companies won’t let you just PTO your last few weeks in lieu of working. I think you could ask them to explain their policy and point to your excellent track record with them but otherwise I don’t see any real leverage here for you.

  98. Betty Spaghetti*

    I’m resigning from my current employer- my last day is next week. In the past, management generally only sends a “farewell” email to their favorites. Everyone else leaves without acknowledgement. Would it be in poor form if I sent out an email on my own behalf to other employees? I’m certainly never using any of the managers here as a reference.

    2. Sarah Jane*

      In we very leave I’ve worked it’s very common for people who are leaving voluntarily to send a goodbye email to everybody. The emails are bright and breezy – “ This is my last day, I’ve enjoyed working with all of you, bla bla,” and often something like “look for me on LinkedIn “ if you want people to be able to reach you.

  99. Lynn*

    Short question: how do you go about finding a qualified consultant? Would be looking to hire this person for short term only – basically 1 project. What do I ask for/how do I vet them make sure they have the expertise needed? If I get wrong advice and follow it, there would be the potential for negative legal and/or tax consequences.

    Resume? References? Not sure what is industry standard and reasonable to ask for when realistically their income will be one-time from me. But also- they have to know their stuff.

    1. Tx_Trucker*

      I usually ask folks from my industry trade group for recommendations. If that’s not an option, ask for references from a client with a similar project. If this is an industry that has licensing requirements, check with the state board for actual certification and potential violations.

      Get a detailed cost proposal. Depending on the project this may be an hourly rate or a rate for the project.

  100. I'm just here for the cats!*

    So I have a email question. We use outlook at work so there is there are 3 fields: To, CC and BCC. Now I know CC stand for carbon copy and that BCC is blind carbon copy, so the others don’t know who else was on the email.

    But with todays tech, you can put multiple people on the To field. Why would you need the CC? If someone hits reply all does that just reply to people on the TO field and not the CC field?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Reply All will reply to both.

      For me, I think of the To field as the people that this is for and CC as people that need to be aware of this communication.

      1. KG*

        I treat it the same way as Decidedly Me. If an email goes to several people in my office, I check to see who is in the Who field and if it isn’t me, I treat it as an FYI only.
        If it is directed to my boss, I’ll reply to him only adding “J this is for you” in the subject line because I’m often the one who will get the follow-up when he ignores the request so it saves me time later.

      2. Blue Pen*

        Yeah, same. “To” is for someone/s I need a response and/or direct action from. “CCs” are for those who need to be kept in the loop that this thing is moving under their noses in some way.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I try to use the fields like this:

      To–for people I want to take direct action (answer my question, update a document, etc.)
      CC–for people I want to be informed about the action being taken (so they know how long I’m waiting for my question to be answered, so they know the document is being updated, etc.)
      BCC–I don’t use this field

      My company uses Outlook as the email program, and when I “reply-all” in Outlook, the sender and anyone else who was in the “To” field on the email to me are in the “To” field of the reply. Everyone who was in the “CC” field on the original email is on the “CC” field in the reply. Most of the time, I switch people around according to my rules of thumb above, but sometimes I forget to do that or miss someone.

      1. Revere your cat*

        I agree with this approach. In my younger days I’d use BCC but now if I want someone to see something but don’t want to actively cc them (for a variety of reasons including worrying they’ll get spammed by replies or it’ll look like I’m escalating to a boss) I’ll send the email and then forward it with a little note for context.

        1. MsM*

          BCC in my office generally gets used for “I’m taking this person off the chain because they don’t need to be involved, but letting them know it’s being handled.”

      2. Double A*

        Yeah, I only use BCC when it’s like, “This information needs to be communicated to a bunch of people who don’t need to know who else got it and should not reply all.”

    3. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

      Reply all replies to all To and CC recipients. I’ve seen To used as the main person the message is meant for and CC is for FYI people.

    4. Colette*

      I believe that if you reply all, it will put the person who sent you the email in the To field and everyone else in CC.

      I know people who prioritize messages sent to them over ones they are copied on, so it’s relevant in that situation – particularly for people who get a lot of emails, it’s a way to prioritize.

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      Like others, “to” is the people I’m communicating with. “cc” is people I want to be aware of the communication. Some cases when I use it:
      1. Sending something to an internal client and cc’ing their assistant.
      2. Sending something to a colleague on another team and cc’ing my manager so she knows what’s going on (and can potentially jump in to help me if things get ugly).
      3. Sending something to an internal client and cc’ing the other people who work with them in different capacities connected to mine.

    6. Person from the Resume*

      Obviously the names of the fields are old fashioned. But MS Outlook let’s you sort prioritize by messages that were To you versus that CCed you.

      The general idea is people in the CC field are getting the message as an FYI and not the most important recipient or expected to take action on the message.

    7. Meh*

      many people with full mailboxes use whether they are on the to vs cc line to determine how much attention to pay to the email / whether there is anything for them to act on.

  101. What's the path?*

    You know how people say “Oh this will be a step on my career path”, how do you know? I’ve taken jobs that I thought would be, but then I did the actual job and it wasn’t exactly what it was described. Then I wasn’t sure what to do with the career path.

    My field is not very linear either. There’s not many roles you can get promoted into, you pretty much keep the same job title, but it also has many different types of work you can do. I know what I would like to do is end up at the federal government level, but sometimes those job descriptions are so vague, I don’t know what I should aim for in my next job to try and end up there.

    Is this the case of using transferable skills? How do you know if a new job would be a good step for your career?

    1. PassThePeasPlease*

      I’m big into trying to build a “portfolio career” rather than sticking on one linear path. So when I look for jobs I’m more focused on the tasks that are outlined in the JD rather than the title or if it might be considered the next step “up” from what I’ve been doing. Won’t work if they aren’t including the right tasks in the JD and the actual jobs ends up being different but this has helped me not think of my career so linearly and instead amass a grouping of talents, not specific to a single job/path, that help me land my next role when I’m ready to move on.

      1. Glazed Donut*

        This is such a helpful way to look at it. I’ve always struggled with not knowing where I want to “end up” and feel like that hampers my choices. Thank you for sharing!

    2. Century Kestrel*

      I honestly think most people who say that kind of thing are hoping it’ll prove true, but don’t know for sure.

      I think your best bet would be to somehow try to talk to someone at the federal level who’s doing the kind of work you’d like to do – they’d be the best equipped to tell you what skills will be valuable for you and what kind of path can lead there.

  102. holiday dilemma*

    Would love some input — how early is too early to use a floating holiday? I’m starting a new job on May 13th and really want to use my floating holiday for my birthday in early July… but I also know you should avoid taking time off during your first six months. But on the other hand, this is a day that is meaningful to me and I’m not sure when else I would use it.

    Any thoughts? Thanks!

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I would not. I understand that your birthday is important to you, but the first month of a new job is not the time to take time off. As for when to use it, take a long weekend, extend another holiday, or just pick a random day to get errands done.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Generally, taking one day off isn’t a big deal. In your shoes, I would ask your manager about a month before the day you want off. “Hey, [boss’s name], I’m thinking of taking my floating holiday on July X. Is that OK with you?”

      Before you ask, you’ll probably have a decent sense of whether that falls in a busy season for your role/team or if your team has a culture of “newest people get the least desirable time off” (could be an issue if you’re in the US and your birthday falls near July 4).

    4. Maggie*

      That’s completely fine. I think it’s fine to take a couple days in that time period or even a week tbh. I would ask for a 3 week international vacation but “take no time off for 6 months” is silly unless there’s a work reason like a huge project. But you’re beyond fine

    5. Hyaline*

      Birthdays are what a lot of people use floating holidays for! I think it’s fine with two caveats: One, you may not be allowed to use it for some standard period (some places require three months employment before you can use PTO or holidays, etc), so check that before getting set on it and Two, if it’s adjacent to the Fourth of July holiday and you’re in the US it might a) not be allowed or b) be frowned upon or cause inconvenience because others are taking long weekends and you can weigh if you want to potentially step in it. I’d think running your plan by your manager would raise any actual “ooooh sorry that’s not allowed” flags or more subtle “you can, but taking July 3 off will be annoying” flags.

    6. anon_sighing*

      I always found the “don’t take time off in the first six months” silly — even a probation period is typically 90 days (3 months). I think you’re fine to take one day off in your first three months. You can ask and they can say ‘no.’ I doubt they will.

  103. Rear mech*

    Accounting managers & controllers who *aren’t* in hospitality – have you ever hired junior staff who previously worked in hotel or restaurant accounting? Any observations or stereotypes I should be aware of when I apply to other types of businesses, or is one accountant with 1 year of GL experience and 2 of A/P much like the other?

    1. Dancing Otter*

      I supervised A/P for a while. The industry would matter less to me than whether you had done three-way matching (purchase order, receiving document, invoice), with variance analysis and reporting a nice extra. Do you have experience with blanket purchase orders or prepaid orders? What was the invoice volume and payment frequency? What was the approval and review process?
      General ledger at the junior level should be fairly standard, unless there are specialized accounting rules for the hospitality industry of which I am unaware. (Those would probably be handled at a higher level, anyway.) At the junior account level, I would ask about what software you used, how far your duties extended – journal entries, account reconciliations, running reports programmed by others, creating reports yourself? – and whether you were involved in preparing the financial statements, doing any financial analysis, allocations, accruals or consolidations.
      If you have three years experience, it might be worth applying at the staff accountant level, BTW.

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        Agree 100%. A/P is A/P, from my experience. If you get the internal control piece (3 way match) you’re good. The GL might have different accounts which vary by industry, and there are specific rules for some industries that you might want to Google before you have an interview. So if you’re interviewing at a SaaS company, make sure you understand deferred revenue and how commissions should be expensed. But it’s not hard at all to pick up, so don’t be intimidated!
        Good luck!

  104. RFPleasereviewandedit*

    My career is currently languishing in Proposal/RFP Manager hell. I’m taking the PMP exam next year with the goal of moving into government program management. Have any other proposal professionals gotten their PMP and made a similar career switch? How did you describe bids you’ve managed on your PMP exam application?

    1. PMPHolder*

      Hopefully this is not too late for you to see this. I got my PMP this fall and didn’t come from the RFP side, but I did work on a large RFP last year (successful!) and the Proposal/RFP lead was amazing.

      I would consider each RFP you have lead, participated in as their own projects. They have defined time-frames, you have to evaluate risks (risk we won’t address the requirements, risk we will come in too high or too low, etc.), and you usually have to budget (part of the COI piece – how much to spend vs. the internal cost of running the proposal/RFP.

      I would break each proposal or bid response you worked on into their components and see how they add up. Take a look at some PMP course materials and the PMI site to get an idea of the types of things to document in your experience.
      Good luck!

  105. Money vs Quality of Life*

    It seems like jobs in my field that make more money (over $65k) are very challenging and stressful. A lot of responsibility. The ones that aren’t are very competitive (understandably.) I know money doesn’t buy happiness, but if I could feel less anxious about my bills and savings, I think I could be happier.

    Unfortunately, I feel like I have to sacrifice having better life balance for a more stressful job in order to make more money. Or have a less stressful job and then add on another job. It just sucks.

    1. Once upon a time*

      My 2c. Both do suck. But, I think it helps to preface that it doesn’t have to be permanent. If you want to make some more money to build up your retirement/stock/savings portfolio for a few years and then find something quieter, that’s usually an option. Or if you want to build up your expertise with a lighter load, so you can more easily navigate the responsibility later… both are options.

      The question I think you might need to ask yourself is whether you’re in a good place to take on more stress. If not, then give yourself time to strengthen your arsenal of defenses, and re-evaluate in a couple of years.

      The only caveat would be whether you’re planning bit life moments — children, home ownership, etc. It will help to have more money in front before these things happen, so you can find future opportunities that give you better work/life balance down the road.

    2. Century Kestrel*

      It does suck. I’m sorry. If it helps, I’m in the same boat and a large part of it is due to the current economic situation, with salaries stagnating and cost of living soaring to the moon. It’s a hot take in some circles, but I don’t think an adult working full-time should need a 2nd job to live. I also don’t think only the people with the highest-paying, most stressful jobs out there deserve to be comfortable and save for retirement.

      On to your question though. Both choices are valid, I think. I have a journalist friend who did a piece recently on people who left jobs they liked for higher paying positions, mostly due to needing money due to a new kid, home repairs, etc. She found that most of them reported being less happy than before, but it’s of course impossible to know how they’d felt if they’d stayed at their previous positions and gone into debt instead. Once upon a time is right though – whatever you pick, it doesn’t have to be permanent if you don’t want it to be.

  106. Despairingly unemployed*

    Looking for wording suggestions on this one.

    I had an intro call this week with a company for a coordinator role, only to be told the company isn’t US-based (not a deal breaker in itself but I don’t want more complicated taxes), then was stopped in my “tell me a little about yourself” that there might’ve been a mix up in what coordinators do in their country vs here, but also that the description THEY uploaded… is very much not that at all! (It involves helping them break into the US market, not do what coordinators do.) Not to mention the pay is dependent on getting people to sign up to the service…

    I find it incredibly dumb NOT to list what you actually want, but that aside, this isn’t what I was interested in and I have little to no contacts that could even help me if I were. They gave me some time to think it through/talk to my contacts (hah), but how can I say “after thinking it over, I’m not interested/this isn’t for me” but less bluntly…? Aghh.

    1. Colette*

      “After thinking about our talk this week, I don’t think this is the right fit so I’m going to withdraw from the hiring process.”

    2. BellyButton*

      “Thank you for your time, after careful consideration I have decided not to accept the position.”

    3. Treena*

      This sounds scammy/MLM-y. I would just email and say you’re not interested. There’s no need to avoid bluntness.

      1. Ginger Cat Lady*

        My thought exactly. This is scammy bait and switch, not an accidental uploading the wrong job description.

        1. Despairingly unemployed*

          Yeah okay, I was hesitant to call it a bait and switch but… it is!

    4. Century Kestrel*

      I’m a coward so every time I’ve declined an offer in my life it’s been by saying “Thank you so much for your interest, but in the meantime I’ve heard back from a different employer and I’ve decided to accept their offer.”

      But I think you can certainly say that this just isn’t for you. It doesn’t feel overly blunt to me.

    5. MsM*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with “after thinking it over, this isn’t for me.” You can thank them for your time and wish them luck if you want to soften it a bit.

    6. anon_sighing*

      This sounds like an outright scam. I’ve withdrawn from an interview process where they mixed up my resume with someone else’s (asked me about my experience at a company I hadn’t worked at ever) and when I (politely) suggested they may have mixed up my resume with someone else’s, they looked at me strangely and then it took about two minutes for them to sort it out they had the wrong one. And that was just for an honest mistake but enough for me to go “okay, enough weirdness from this group that I don’t wanna be here if I don’t have to.”

  107. Pine Tree*

    I work for a small non-profit. A few years ago it was a tiny non-profit, and the staff has doubled. The problem is that back when there were just a few employees, they all got inflated titles – think “C” level. But now everyone is essentially working at the same level however a few of the newer employees don’t have the “C” title (for whatever reason when they were hired, but they are working at or above the level of some of the “C” titled employees). We can’t just give everyone a “C” level title – I think it looks weird and just doesn’t make sense. We need to retitle everyone because it is confusing to our outside stakeholders and it is a bit demoralizing for the non-C level people who are working at that same level as the legacy employees.

    How do we, as an organization, deal with these inflated titles without having to essentially demote (or at least de-title) the legacy employees?

    1. Antilles*

      Can you completely re-org and remove ALL “C-suite” titles full stop, even from employees who actually fulfill the role? So your CFO (who deserves that title) gets re-titled as “Vice President of Finance”, while the Chief Engineer (who shouldn’t have a C-suite title) now gets re-titled as a Project Engineer.

      This way, it doesn’t feel as much like demoting certain legacy employees, because *everybody’s* got a new title.

      1. Yes And*

        I agree with this. I’d add that this is where the strategic planning process can come in useful, both for getting buy-in on the changes, and for getting serious about where your organization is going, so you can build an org chart with room for reasonably expected further growth.

        1. Pine Tree*

          Thank you to both you and Antilles. I like this approach, and we could (if we want to) even come up with the new titles together so people feel like they have a say in what their new title will be. We’re a growing staff, but still small enough that I think we could have this conversation with everyone.

  108. Once upon a time*

    Late to the party … but maybe someone can answer. How can you tell if an interview has gone well? Particularly those pesky panel interviews which are scripted and don’t really deviate from the structure?

    #askingforafriend #interviewdonetoday

    1. Colette*

      If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that I cannot tell. I’ve had interviews that I thought went well and never heard from the company again; I’ve been offered the job after interviews I thought were terrible. Let it go and move on. :)

    2. Hlao-roo*

      What’s your metric for “gone well”?

      If it’s “I will be offered the job,” there’s no way to know. There are often many qualified candidates who would do well in a role if given an offer, so the hiring manager/hiring panel selects the person they think will be best out of all of the candidates.

      If it’s “learned what I wanted to about the role, answered the questions well, feel like I had a decent rapport with the interviewers and if I don’t get this job, they’ll be willing to consider me for future jobs,” then I feel like I’ve done well if I feel like I answered the questions well, developed a rapport, and had a chance to ask my questions during the interview.

    3. Zona the Great*

      If I wasn’t picked apart by my interviewers or faced with total silence after each answer, I call it okay. Gleaning any other information such has just how well I did is an exercise in futility.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      Honestly, I’m not sure you can. I’ve had very pleasant conversations with people even when I was pretty sure after the interview that they were absolutely wrong for the role. Colette is right. I feel like the biggest clue I give to people when an interview is going BADLY is that I have to ask and re-ask questions in slightly different ways multiple times because they aren’t really answering the question I ask. I think it’s unlikely they pick up on that clue, though: if they could tell I was asking the same question, they’d understand what I was asking and would have answered it.

    5. Blue Pen*

      I don’t think you can ever really know for sure, but generally speaking, I feel I performed at my best when it’s not really a performance at all—it’s a warm and friendly conversation between all parties involved. I’m someone who notices (and deeply appreciates) when an interviewer(s) goes out of their way to make me feel welcome, and they don’t use it as an excuse to intimidate or scare me off. I’ve had interviews where I’m convinced it was the interviewer’s MO to scare me off, and that tells me everything I need to know about that working environment. It sounds really simplistic, maybe it is, but if I leave the conversation thinking “wow, I’d grab a beer with that person,” it’s usually a good sign.

      My condolences for panel interviews, though. They’re really hard—especially hard, I’ve found, on Zoom—and it can take a hot minute to find your footing when multiple people are asking you random questions without any sequence or flow.

    6. Peanut Hamper*

      You can’t.

      Your best bet is to put every resume sent and every interview done behind you. Forget about them. If something good comes of them, great! And if nothing comes of them, you’ve already put them behind you.

    7. anon_sighing*

      The best sign is how you feel leaving it, at least for me. I don’t know if I’ve gotten the job, but I can get the impression that they at least liked my responses and I may move on.

  109. It's my office and I'll cry if I want to*

    Just wanted to say a quick thank you to the kind commenters last week who reassured me that crying at work (for a reason, not just randomly) was relatively normal and nothing to be ashamed about. After a busy weekend away and a stellar client presentation this week, I’m no longer feeling mortified over the crying and like I want to hid under a medium sized rock.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’m so glad you feel better! It’s absolutely nothing to be ashamed of!

  110. Formerly Ella Vader*

    I have had very little experience with job searching – maybe I’ve been lucky, or maybe I’ve been willing to settle rather than take risks.

    But I’ve bought Alison’s book How to Get a Job, and I’m giving it a shot.

    I’m running into a weird mental problem. (Keep in mind, this is early-stages – I’m sure it will get easier.) I read a posting, I see how it could be a pretty good fit, but by the time I finish a cover letter and a targeted resume I am completely in love with the idea of me in this job. How do I then set that idea aside to tailor my materials for the next ad? And also, if they do interview me for the first one, how hard is it to see the flaws clearly again, once I’ve talked myself into seeing it as perfect in order to write the materials?

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Could you do some journaling exercises? Some good prompts to start with may be:

      – how will I feel if I don’t hear back from this company?
      – how will I feel if I don’t get this job?
      – what are some negatives of working for this company?
      – what are some places where I don’t meet the job description?
      – how can I best get excited about applying for a different job?

      After you apply for a job, spend some time writing down what comes to mind from these prompts (or any other prompts, if you find ones that suit you better). You can write on scrap paper, in a paper notebook, or on your computer. Whatever works best for you. Don’t worry about spelling or grammar, journaling for yourself is mostly to get your thoughts flowing. Hopefully writing something down can bring you back down to earth about that particular job ad, and get you in the right mental space to start applying to the next job ad.

  111. strawberry milk charlotte*

    Someone wish me luck on my current job search? I’ve been working in retail/customer service my entire working life (~10 years) and I’m now trying to get an admin/clerical job. My usual seasonal job has a new manager and I’m kind of terrified of the changes she’s going to bring so, ramping it up a little bit.

    If anyone has tips on communicating customer service and organizational skills related to stocking/shift leading/cashing out in a way that transfers to a more traditional desk job that would be great too. I’m 3/4 through my undergrad and really want to have a job that’s more in line with what I’m doing for school. (Sciences degree, health authority clerical job, it’s more connected than working as a barista at least) I’m struggling with knowing that I can be organized and detail oriented, but don’t have the direct 1:1 experience to point to on my resumé.

    Definitely using advice from this site for my coverletter.

    1. Century Kestrel*

      Good luck! I really hope you manage to make the move you wish.

      I think retail and customer service experience actually aligns great with admin/clerical work because a person who does well with customers will usually be personable, polite, etc. I’d say look at it like a great soft skills boot camp. Retail makes you great at dealing with all kinds of people, adapting on the fly, putting out fires, etc.

    2. A Girl Named Fred*

      Good luck! I agree with Century Kestrel, retail/customer service experience is great when pivoting to clerical/admin, so I hope you’re able to find a great fit!

      Quantifying tasks that don’t have easy metrics is one of the things I hate the most any time I ramp up a job search, but I like to think I’ve gotten somewhat decent at it. When cashing out your till, did you ever have errors? If not, that shows attention to detail. How many customers do you serve in a day? Are you the person that always gets shoved in front of That One Difficult Customer because you handle them best? Do your shifts never have to worry about running out of X or Y because you’ve always got the stock topped off? If any of that or similar applies, your bulletpoints could look something like:
      “- Served X customers per day while maintaining average wait time of Y
      – Ensured efficient service by tracking and filling stock at Z intervals
      – Maintained accuracy rating of A when counting drawer at end of shifts
      – Led shift of B employees, managing workflow to provide excellent customer service”

      And so forth? I’ve never been a barista so I have no idea if any of those tasks are accurate, but maybe that gets you in the ballpark so you can do your own building. Good luck again, you’ve got this!!

      1. strawberry milk charlotte*

        thank you both! the framing definitely helped with filling in the relevance of my recent experience on the job application. i guess i’ll update in another open thread if i get an interview/the job! (it’s a stretch, but i’m hopeful.)

        and thank you alison for the awesome coverletter advice and resources. it took the one i was working on from stilted and offputting to personable and just a lot better :)

        also bc i thought this was a charming thing i did that maybe doesn’t hit as gimmicky; i scanned my signature and made it into a png to go on my coverletter like i signed it (it looks kinda fancy and effortful to me)

  112. Century Kestrel*

    How do you adapt to a new, slightly overzealous staff member?

    Our last admin left for greener (as in, better paid) pastures and while I get along well with the new one, she’s a lot more hands-on that her predecessor. Part of my job is to put together a certain reports, which I pass on to the admin who verifies and them and sends them off to a government agency.

    I used to never hear anything about these reports. The new admin however is constantly reminding me to submit them and correcting them extensively. I’m a little surprised – these are not time-sensitive documents in any way, and my boss often tells me to prioritize other tasks over them (worth noting as well that I’ve never submitted one late). The mistakes she’s finding are also things that I’ve been told not to bother with because the people receiving the reports don’t care, like a digit having 3 decimals instead of two, or a price being off by a few cents. The admin’s tone when she gives these reminders/corrections is oftentimes irritated, like she’s trying hard to stay polite but is actually really ticked off, which is entirely an excessive reaction to have to anything concerning these reports.

    Our manager is extremely hands-off and intervenes in conflicts between employees vanishingly rarely, so I’m keeping talking to him as an absolute last resort. I’d like to address this with the admin instead. Any advice? So far I’ve tried explaining why the reminders and edits are unnecessary, but she dismissed that by saying that since she’s new, she doesn’t yet know what’s important and what isn’t (but I just told her…).

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      What is “verifying” supposed to include? It might help if you made her a checklist of things she needs to verify, and a list of what she doesn’t.

    2. BellyButton*

      “While I appreciate that you care about this, the things you are pointing out aren’t changes that need to be made. I have been given the parameters and requirements and the report is within those guidelines. Manager has also said that this report isn’t a high priority for me or for the agency we send it to. I always complete this report on time and do not need reminders.”

      Good luck!

    3. Caramel & Cheddar*

      From what you describe, I’m not getting overzealous so much as “new person is trying to make sure she’s doing her job thoroughly.” She sounds like she wants to do a good job by making sure that she gets the report with enough time to do her part of the task, and then identifying problems when she verifies the numbers.

      I know you said your boss is hands off, but I think your colleague would probably benefit from hearing from the boss directly that the errors she’s finding are fine and she doesn’t need to keep correcting them. Your admin is new and doesn’t yet know anyone nor their work quality terribly well yet; if I kept finding errors in a report I had to send to a government agency (!) and the person making the errors said “trust me, it’s fine”, I wouldn’t take their word for it! So if it is indeed fine, then that’s for the boss to confirm.

      I say this as someone who loses sleep about errors in reports that have to go to government or its agencies, and I’m guessing she’s as surprised as I am that 100% accuracy doesn’t matter here.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Yeah, agree with this. I’ve been employed to do something similar for about six months and people I report to/serve have generally said when they don’t need something checked that thoroughly (although my job is shoring things up and closing stuff off so that they can get on with higher level work). At the same time, I’ve pointed out mistakes that I’ve seen as they happen (like scheduling a maintenance date with a contractor for the middle of October…when we were already into November and the job certainly couldn’t wait a whole year!) and that’s been thanked as a good catch.

        If she’s still calibrating what needs to be done and what should be left alone, then she needs polite schooling and guidance rather than to be ‘spoken to’. Personally I’d rather someone flagged issues and left me to sort out what’s important and what’s not rather than not catching them. The other week while writing important minutes, I queried with my boss whether it would be appropriate to add in surnames for receptionists mentioned in the minutes but not present at the meeting. I felt it was wrong to give everyone but female domestic staff surnames (there were plenty of women in the meeting including the head of cleaning, but it was just mentioning others by first name only I felt was a bit undignified); my boss actually explained that he preferred to keep things informal because his female predecessor had been known for being to obsessively formal and having a meltdown (!) when people didn’t adhere to her strict standards, and he had spent the past year rebuilding relationships on a more friendly level. So while he agreed that it was a good thing for me to check — and he praised me for being not only thorough but brave enough to raise the equality issue as well — he explained it wasn’t necessary to name people mentioned in passing with both names and that that was a deliberate style choice.

        Put tone to one side — people can come across as terse in written conversation while they’re not intending to be rude. Then diplomatically help a new employee find her feet and maybe explain some of the points where actually you don’t need her thoroughness. But asking for someone to ‘speak to her’ like this is premature and would not really help her learn where she needs to settle on this issue.

  113. Maleficent2026*

    I’ve found a mentor at work. We had a “meet and greet” video call yesterday to see if we’d be a good fit together, and it went really well. But she’s asked me to tell her how often I’d like to meet, what do we want to talk about, what can she help me with, etc. And I have no clue how to answer those. I’ve been in this job less than a year, but I’ve never had a mentor in any previous job, so I have no clue how this is supposed to work. I also feel like I’m behind the curve when it comes to other coworkers my age. I’m in my early 40s, but I just finished my degree at the end of 2022, so this is the first “professional”, business related job I’ve had. I feel like sometimes people seem to have higher expectations because of my age, and don’t necessarily give me the same grace or “benefit of the doubt” they would to a new grad in their early 20s.

    1. Caramel & Cheddar*

      I think frequency depends on what you want to talk about / what she can help you with, so you’ll need to figure that out first. I think you could also figure out with her what the meetings should be for vs what is she happy to help with via email/text/whatever, i.e. if you just want to get an introduction to a colleague of hers, that’s something you could email her and not wait until your next meeting, etc.

    2. Ginger Baker*

      It sounds like this is a formal mentor program? If so, can you ask the coordinators a) what is usual/if they have any guidance and/or b) ask them to connect you with one or two people who have previously been mentees and then have a conversation with them about how that went/what they found most/least helpful?

  114. PregnantBookworm*

    1st time pregnant lady here (4 weeks). Does anyone have any sites/blogs/etc. they really liked? Like AAM but for pregnant people? Maybe something with videos that my partner can engage with also (he’s a visual guy). I have read “What to Expect When Your Expecting” and “Expecting Better”. Thanks in advance!

    1. Double A*

      This might be a better question for the weekend thread because it’s not really work related it seems!

  115. Let me just check my email again...*

    How often have you had a job ask for references after a second interview and NOT gotten the offer? Or alternately, how frequently have you checked multiple people’s references before deciding who to make an offer to? I’m trying to gauge how hard I should be working to temper my hopes after being asked for references yesterday for a job I would really love to get.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      We usually have several people are reference stage before deciding on who to make an offer to.

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      We check references when we’re getting close to ready to make an offer.
      Good luck and fingers crossed for you!

  116. Dr Towers*

    How do people handle working in two different places? I feel like I end up doing such different work in the office vs at home that it sometimes feels like two very different jobs. I have a bit of a portfolio role with a range of different things that relate to the over-arching purpose but not necessarily each other – like I provide pastoral care to llama groomers, instruct zoo keepers on animal welfare and run a hotline for people whose pet has just died. I worry that I don’t get any of job A done in place X, even though the ock doesn’t stop on A, because in place X my focus is on job B. I don’t have a routine about when I am in A vs B. Everything is accessible from both places – hurrah for Dropbox – but I just wondered how other people manage their tasks across different places.

  117. Weird or Not Weird*

    This is wildly low stakes but it came up again this week so I’m curious what the commenters think.

    My company has 2 offices in 2 cities (same time zone). I’m in a more senior admin role in City A, and oversee another more junior admin in City B. We still have a hybrid/flexible work policy at our company for everyone, except the two of us are required to be in-office daily. Since our company is small, we have a lot of overlapping responsibilities in our respective offices–think reception work, office upkeep, and just generally being available to help our colleagues with whatever they need. Pretty standard. We do have some specific responsibilities but are both cross-trained if we need to cover for each other (like in the event of extended medical leave or PTO), and I generally lead any bigger projects that come our way.

    Whenever I’m out sick, I email my city leadership and let them know. Then I Teams chat my admin colleague to let them know, and they pop a message in our city-specific Teams chat letting everyone know I’m out for the day and offering to help folks with anything in my absence that I might normally do. Everyone goes on about their day.

    Whenever the other admin is out sick, they let me know via Teams chat and I email their city leadership–the other admin doesn’t have or want to have their work email outside their work computer, which they leave at the office, and honestly I completely respect and support all of that since it’s not a requirement of their job–and send a similar Teams chat to their city that their admin is out and I’m here to help.

    EVERY TIME, without fail, someone from their city leadership asks me if I think I should send an email to their entire office letting everyone know the admin is out sick. I don’t know if I’m the one being weird here or not, but I find it SO odd to single out one person and let EVERYONE (50 people) know they’re sick.

    The other reason I find this weird, is I worked here for 2 years as the only admin in either city, and no one EVER asked me to do anything like this/tell everyone in my city that I’m out sick. They just…lived without me for a few days (I don’t get sick a lot, but that’s besides the point).

    I’ve never worked anywhere in the last 15 years of my career where it was expected that the admin’s absence (aka my absence, I’m always the admin!) for a day or two should warrant an office-wide email. All of the people asking for this have worked at this company for a long time, so maybe it’s something more normalized to them that the old admin did? Their old admin was also here for a very long time.

    Is it weird? Am I being weird for thinking it’s weird? Should I just let it go and send the email?

  118. Oink*

    I’m giving a presentation at work soon. Half of my right eyeball is red from a recent medical procedure.

    Do I address this at the beginning so people don’t think I’m high on some weird drugs? Or is it not necessary to say anything? I feel a little self conscious about it.

    1. Voldermorph*

      “Sorry about the red eye. I’m not The Terminator btw. Today I’d like to talk about….” or…
      “in case you’ve noticed my eye, I walked past a fence and could here chanting “thirteen! thirteen”. Curious, I looked around and found a hole in the fence. I looked through the hole and got poked in the eye. The chanting continued “fourteen! fourteen”. today id like to talk about…”.

      I’ll get my coat….

    2. Axolotl*

      I would say something, if only because a red eye could mean pinkeye, which is highly infectious, so I’d be kind of anxious interviewing you and knowing that it’s not that would put me at ease!

      As for how, I’d probably go with a straightforward “Just to let you know this is from a recent medical procedure, it’s not pinkeye!”

    3. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      I can’t WAIT to see someone with a red eye now, so I can say Are you the terminator??

  119. semi-corporate moth*

    One of the perks of our department is that each staff member is able to attend a conference per fiscal year. However, I was recently given responsibilities that require me to be in the office during our three most popular conferences in the field, and I haven’t been able to find any other conferences which would work for my role. Is there a perk I could request to swap in for professional development? I was thinking webinars, but we don’t have a ton in my field.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Could you get reimbursed for a class at a local college? Or a stipend to purchase some professional development books/materials?

  120. Chirpy*

    My coworkers have escalated to talking crap about me over the store-wide radio and refusing to do any work I didn’t do (I’m not sure how I’m supposed to do work when I’m not here? Or why it’s okay for them to leave stuff for me, but I can’t leave even a really easy task for them??) And my manager agrees that they’re terrible, but won’t do anything about it.

    I really need to get out of here. But I’m just afraid no one will take me seriously for a non-retail job that includes decent pay and benefits. I don’t have good references, either, due to previous managers disappearing off the face of the earth and a long string of jobs like this (and I can’t afford to volunteer anywhere beyond my one current place, so that’s at least one reference.) But I can’t afford to take a temp or part-time job to get in the door either, as I really need something that pays enough to be able to go to a doctor / finally get some anxiety treatment, because I currently can’t.

    1. WellRed*

      If you are working in a crappy retail environment right now, is it possible to work at different retail job instead while looking for something better? Not all retail environments are petty and dysfunctional. Or see about something considered more professional like bank teller? It may not be your long term goal but your current situation doesn’t need to be “stuck at this job until I find the perfect job.” Not saying it’s easy, but something to consider.

      1. Chirpy*

        I’ve been in retail for way too long, I just can’t anymore. This job was supposed to be temporary until I found something better…and then the pandemic happened. At least here I have some insurance and vacation, there’s not really any point in going to another store and starting over at zero.

        1. WellRed*

          Ok but that was just one idea. Don’t talk yourself out of looking around. I mean, ideally, what would your next job be? Or at least, what field would you like to be in or at least closer to?

          1. WellRed*

            To add: I’m sympathetic to the rut but want to emphasize this point: you are working at a place where coworkers are publicly talking crap about you. That’s very much not normal.

            1. Chirpy*

              I mean, I don’t think I’ve ever had a person in a position of authority actually stand up for me – even when they acknowledge that it’s a problem – so it just feels like average, honestly.

              Part of the problem in job hunting is that I really don’t know what I want to do. I have some experience and a minor in a field notorious for few jobs (as in, maybe a dozen total in my state), a science major that is a bit too broad and all the entry level jobs are part time summer things (or they’re hiring middle managers with 10 years of experience, but those entry jobs weren’t hiring 10 years ago when I looked), or honestly, I’d love to do film or theater work, but that’s been a weirdly constant and spectacular failure to do since I was a kid, and I don’t have the money for film school (or the desire to move across the country).

              Like, natural resources/ environmental stuff is probably more realistic, I just don’t know how to get into that. I know one person with that type of job, and she says her workplace is awful.

              1. Night owl*

                I work in natural resources. I once hired someone for a temporary project position whose only work experience was as a swim instructor, but her cover letter told her story and her interest in natural resources in a really compelling way. She’s gone on to have an amazing career in the field.

                Don’t give up on yourself. You deserve better than this horrible workplace.

              2. Hlao-roo*

                Have you tried looking for jobs at your state’s department of conservation/department of natural resources (or whatever it’s called in your state, assuming you’re in the US)? Starting as a “resource technician” or a “laborer” will probably pay about the same as retail and will probably be mostly manual labor, but it’s generally easier to move up/around in the government once you have a government job.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Please apply for non-retail jobs.

      Yep, you won’t get over the gate with a lot of these applications. But that’s okay.

      Decent managers/hiring managers who see retail on your resume and know the kind of skillset you’ve gained while succeeding in that role will give you a chance. Chances are they’ve been there themselves. They will understand that you won’t have great references because that’s the nature of retail.

      Don’t waste your resume talking about tasks. Instead talk about the skills you’ve gained — how to deal with difficult customers, how to manage your time, how to prioritize tasks. Talk about any accomplishments you’ve done — consistently the first person to finish “X” task, great customer feedback, etc.

      You’re in a shitty situation right now, and I feel for you. But you can get out of there. Lots of us have. Good luck and give us an update when you have one.

      1. Chirpy*

        I’m just afraid that I’m going to be pigeonholed forever in crappy jobs. I previously worked somewhere cool…but in the foodservice portion, because despite good reviews when I was able to fill in elsewhere (and I did nearly every job available, I had a really good skillset for that place) I never could convince my boss to move me into anything else.

        Retail is just absolutely the worst job for me, I would hate to end up dealing with bad customers at a new job just because I have extensive experience with it. But I’ve only had minimal work experience in jobs related to my degree, and, well, a lot of workplace trauma and anxiety issues that I can’t get help with.

        1. Meh*

          The worst they can do is say no, and
          all it takes is one person to give you a chance.

          1. Chirpy*

            It just feels like no one will ever give me a chance, honestly. And my one “good” job where they did ended badly. It just always seems like things that have nothing to do with the quality of my work devalue me to others- my age, I’m single with no kids, I have a “weird” name, I’m female but not super feminine, the fact that I currently work retail, etc.

            I mean, people who know me all say I have skills and should be doing better things, but I can’t ever seem to get bosses to see it. Almost every boss has begged me to stay when I have left (including the one that fired me, oddly) but they never acknowledge my work until that point.

            1. Loreli*

              Several people have made suggestions here, but each time your reply to them is giving reasons why it will never work, or relaying stuff that’s happened to you in lousy jobs. You have talked yourself into “it will never work so I won’t bother”.

              This puts you in a serious rut. You need strategies to climb out of it.

              Compartmentalize the negative thoughts. Set a timer for “that won’t work” and think of all the ways the suggestions won’t work. Then when the timer rings, no more “that won’t work” talk. And then try the suggestions.

              And just because this retail job sucks is no reason to take a different retail job that might not suck.

  121. CoffeeCake*

    Grad school question: do people have any advice about choosing PIs in a PhD program? I’m deciding between (A) a group that does really applied research that has the potential to influence government policy, versus (B) a much more technical lab where the output is more for ‘scientific inquiry’ than real-world applications.

    On paper I’m more interested in the first lab, but I’m hesitant because of the PI’s personality––she’s famously a bit of a steam-roller, and previous grad students worked more around than with her. Many of them stayed because of her reputation as a Big Name in the field. The sub-field of the second lab is less immediately exciting to me and there’s the potential that the field will be going through some growing pains soon, but I would gain some interesting technical skills (think electronics design and implementation/data analysis) that the first group has less support for. The PI also seems like he cares a lot more about providing structure and resources for his students.

    I’m curious what factors people find make or break their grad student experience. Is personality more important? Field? The specific skills you’re hoping to train during your PhD?

    1. You get to choose?*

      Unless things have changed considerably in the *ahem* NN years since my grad school days, isn’t it up to the research group? We had the responsibility of talking to profs and expressing interest, but they chose who they actually wanted. Most people did not get their first or even second choice. Folks then had to decide if they were willing to spend 3-5 years in whatever corner of physics that prof favored or if they’d rather leave w/o finishing their Ph. D. Lucky students maybe had a couple of options, but most groups only had an opening every other year or so, so it was very random.

      1. CoffeeCake*

        My program lets you rotate in several labs before you commit to a group. I’ve worked (or am working) in both labs and they’re both open to considering me joining long-term. Not sure how common that is in other departments/universities!

      2. AFac*

        In our program, students can express interest in certain professors or fields. We offer admittance to students to work under a particular professor as a condition of their acceptance, and the student decides whether to accept our offer or not. Advisors can be changed once in the program, but it’s not easy to do, especially if grant funding is involved. It’s also not great for a professor to get a reputation as someone who poaches other professors’ students.

    2. AFac*

      A couple of thoughts:

      – Not every PI works well with every student. But also, you will always go through a period of hating your PI. Obviously, the shorter this period, the better. But a PIs job is to sometimes to get students to do things that usually students aren’t happy about but are important anyway.

      – Your PhD work is rarely the end-all, be-all of your career. You’ll never keep doing that one project over and over again. If you want to make a change, a change can usually be made, even after a PhD.

      – In many fields, postdocs are practically mandatory. Does PI 1 accept postdocs? Would you feel more comfortable dealing with PI 1’s mentoring style if you were a postdoc in their lab?

      – Have you talked to these PIs directly about their expectations of their students? Don’t discount the experiences of their students. But you might get a perspective in conversation with them that might help you decide whether you can work with them or not.

      – At the end of the day, you have to finish your PhD. Some people thrive at being left alone to do their thing. Some people think they thrive when being left alone and they actually don’t. Some people need more direct instruction at the beginning. Some people need to have regular communication, even if they’re doing good work on their own. There are no right or wrong answers. But assume the PIs won’t change and go from there.

    3. thanks i'd rather have plants*

      Go with the lab that has the better mentor, more hands-on PI. PI’s rock star status doesn’t matter a bit if you’re not able to learn and thrive.

      Source: I got my PhD <1 yr ago, experienced some fairly substantial personal problems then, and I don't think I would have made it through if I hadn't specifically selected for strong mentorship. As it was, there were a few points when I didn't think I'd finish.

    4. anon_sighing*

      Your experience in your PhD program is directly related to your mentor. Pick the nice one that has time for you and you won’t have the terrible time you hear so often from grad students who pick people doing the research they like / are big names but don’t like them. The amount of people working on the same topic their dissertation was on years later is slim, so focus on skill building in an environment you can learn in. You can work anywhere and with anyone (on more equal footing) as you start your career.

      As a PhD student, I cannot see any use of being attached to a “rock star,” but I can a lot of use for someone who provides structure and resources.

  122. Justin*

    My job has finally agreed to hire someone to support my team (not an admin, someone who can do a lot of the same things I can do but with less experience). I’ve been basically a one-man show and done a lot to the point where the CEO was deeply impressed when he realized it, and my supervisors have been pushing for this for a while (so I haven’t been ignored by my direct team to be clear), and it’s finally going to be nice to have someone to collaborate with.

    (Any of you want the job once it’s up, lol? Training/professional development)

    1. A Girl Named Fred*

      Are you open to an admin who’s a quick study, lol?

      Congrats on getting the support you’ve been asking for! It sounds like you’ve got support from your direct leadership and that has now translated into support from higher up. Which is a testament both to your work and to your company!

  123. SheNeverKnowsBest*

    I need some help thinking up self-improvement goals.

    I’ve been out of school 2 years. I’ve been at this job (programmer/web dev) a year and I like it a lot. But I’ve been slow to pick up on it and I keep on making sloppy mistakes that slow my projects to a crawl. My manager sent me an email this week discussing issues I’ve had, and I’ll put a bit of it here:

    “I’ve noticed some challenges that we need to address to help you meet the expectations for your role.

    Specifically, there have been ongoing difficulties with some core tasks involving C# and Angular, and I’ve observed that assignments like [Recent project that stalled out for a week] are not being completed as anticipated.

    This has raised some concerns about the pace and independence of your problem-solving.It seems there might be roadblocks affecting your ability to complete tasks efficiently.

    I believe it’s crucial for us to understand these better, so we can provide the right support. Could you share your perspective on what these might be? For instance, are there aspects of the training that could be enhanced, or are there clarifications needed regarding task requirements?”

    The tone of the email is collaborative, but I am so stressed. He asked me to make a development plan for the rest of the year, a way to measure progress with clear objectives & a timeline. I want to do well here I want to improve, but I’m struggling to come up with mays to demonstrate measurable improvement.

    here are some areas he said to focus on:

    Proactivity in Seeking Help: There’s been a noticeable lack of initiative in scheduling time for assistance with roadblocks. Engaging more actively with teammates for support is crucial.

    Debugging Skills: There appears to be a struggle with using debugging tools effectively, which is key to resolving issues independently.

    Documentation of Work: Check-ins have been regular but often lack comments or notes that clarify what has been done and why, which is essential for understanding the progress and challenges faced.

    Task Updates: Updates on tasks, including notes or other forms of documentation, have been insufficient. This documentation is important for both tracking progress and planning future work.

    On my end, I think my anxiety about speaking makes my updates more vague and unhelpful than they should be, I get scared to ask for help because it feel like I’m admitting incompetence (self-fulfilling prophesy I know), and I get tunnel vision when I encounter problems and keep trying the same solutions over and over again.

    I think the debugging issue this is the most important, but any suggestion on how to make improvement goals for any of these task would be incredibly helpful.

    1. Kay*

      Not in tech, so take this with a grain of salt. Do you know what good work documentation looks like? Is there any kind of prompts you can follow that would help it be more complete? Even a middle school-type “I took ______ action. It led to ______ result. It was challenging because_______. Next I will work on _____.
      Even if it’s obvious to a reader that you are working off of specific prompts, it still would help you make sure you aren’t missing anything. And filling in a form is a lot less mental load than staring at a blank sheet, imo

    2. A Significant Tree*

      I don’t mean to increase your anxiety, but from what your manager wrote, this is a PIP situation. It does sound like your manager wants you to succeed and is willing to work with you, which is good! But these do sound like big concerns and you’re right to take them seriously. There are a number of letters and posts about the PIP process from all perspectives (managers having to write one, someone receiving one, how to move past one) that might be helpful to you.

      It sounds like there was an expectation that by now you would know how to use the debugging tools – was there specific training on that when you started that you could take a refresher on? Your improvement plan would then be (re)take the training (or some other way of improving your skills) and apply that knowledge to keep your projects moving.

      For documentation of work and task updates, can you talk to coworkers about how much detail they provide and on what aspects of the work? Examples are very helpful for things like this, or getting a checklist from someone about what the documentation needs to include. If it helps, I’m over 25 years into my career and I still ask for templates, examples, or whatever to figure out parts of my job. No one thinks you’re incompetent for doing this, it’s a completely normal aspect of work.

      Your improvement plan would then be something like follow the example and provide a similar level of detail, every time. If there’s any part of the updates that involves briefing the team and you get flustered, write down all the points you need to make ahead of time and read off that until you get more comfortable with speaking to the team. Again, totally common thing that people do to keep track of when they need to make multiple points.

      Talking to coworkers and asking about training is also how you can address the “be proactive in asking for help” element. The other aspect of asking for help is knowing when you need to – you mention tunnel vision, but if you make a point of recognizing when you are stuck in a loop that should be your cue to take a break. It’s also a normal thing to ask a coworker to look over your work and see if they can spot the issue. Sometimes it just takes a fresh pair of eyes.

      1. SheNeverKnowsBest*

        Yes, I definitely know what this is. I’m very nervous but I’m determined to improve.

        This company asks every employee to create a dev plan for themselves at the start of the year, so the request would be add more goals to it. Thank you for your suggestions, I’ll definitelyincorporatethem intohow I work. I wonder if there is a way I could quantify them.

    3. Two Dog Night*

      I think maybe getting the last two items under control would help. I have no idea how you’re tracking your work, but would it be appropriate to set a goal of updating whatever-it-is daily, saying what you got done and what your plans are for the next day? You might find written updates easier than speaking, and doing that update might help you realize when you’re stuck so you can ask for help.

      (Asking for help isn’t admitting incompetence! If you’ve only been at this job a year, there’s still loads you have to learn, and you’re a lot more likely to learn things if people explain them to you. Do you have a collegial relationship with the rest of your team? Is there someone in particular you’d feel comfortable bouncing things off of?)

      In my experience, debugging gets easier with practice. Have you done lots of debugging before? Do you have a systematic way to do unit testing? When you run into a problem, do you know how to trace it to its source? I wonder if some sort of Udemy or Coursera class on debugging would help, if it’s not something you’re naturally good at.

      Good luck! I think it’s a really good sign that your manager wants to work with you on this, and I hope you can come up with a plan.

      1. SheNeverKnowsBest*

        Thanks for the advice!
        We have a task tracker (azure dev ops in specific) and a daily stand-up. I haven’t been as vigilant as I should about updating my tasks, which I’m definitely going to fix. In stand-ups I think I will have to reapproach how I present my progress. Maybe write a script and read it out.

        For debugging, I use the standard debugger/breakpoints most of the time. Recently I have tried to incorporate sql trace but a lot of the time I can’t glean anything from it. More console.log than I’d like to admit.

    4. anon_sighing*

      Of the two here, the ones that don’t deal directly with your skill set are:

      Proactivity in Seeking Help
      Task Updates
      Documentation of Work

      These things require you to be more organized, set calendar reminders (for task updates), create templates (for documentation and formatting task updates), and seek help – which means, ask questions and tell them what you’ve done before asking the questions (also look up how to ask useful questions). I don’t think you need to be worried about these as major faults, a lot of people lack organization but being anxious about it doesn’t help. Build a habit of it because collaborative work requires good documentation so someone doesn’t waste a ton of time trying to decipher what you’ve done.

      But Debugging Skills is definitely a training gap and you may need to go through an example project you had trouble with and note where you had trouble.

    5. Qwerty*

      It sounds like communication is a root cause. You are going to need to get really honest about where you are especially when you are behind.

      **Anxiety**
      Let’s start with the anxiety. Get ahead of it and mentally walk through losing this job. Use this weekend to process the panic, grief, panic again, and get to the end part where you would start pulling yourself together to figure out what is next.

      Ok, now when your anxiety pops up you are little more armored against it and kind remind yourself that you’ve already started making a plan for it.

      So – if this job did not work out, what are the most important skills to figure out to prepare you for the next job? Focus on those. Odds are they are also the most important ones to help you stay in *this* job, but we’re also trying to give you ways to combat the anxiety.

      (Obviously therapy is also a recommendation – I managed someone who really turned things around by getting therapy to deal with not going into a shame spiral whenever they made a mistake or got negative feedback. Now they do the mentoring)

      **Debugging**
      Is it possible to pair program with someone on debugging? Have you looked for online videos on how to use the tools? My suggestion would be:
      1. Someone walks you through the tools, preferable in a recordable session.
      2. YOU write documentation on how to use the debugging tools, ideally in your team wiki. Writing it out will force you to identify gaps in your knowledge. Rewatch the video or ask questions when those come up. Get other team members to review (including your manager) and identify gaps, then go track down those answers
      3. Pair with someone when you are stuck but YOU are in the drivers seat and talk through your thought process. Yes it is uncomfortable, that’s how you get comfy.

      ** Giving Updates**
      Approach updates and documentation by putting yourself in the shoes of others. When you write up documentation, think about coming back to this item 6months from now when you are tired and cranky and have no memory of writing it but need to quickly make a change – what tools would you need? Imagine being a new hire or a junior fresh out of school who needs that documentation – what do they need to independently figure things out? Channel your desire to not ask for help by creating the type of documentation, commit message, comments, etc that would have allowed you to not need to ask anyone questions.

      Similar advice for updates – think about *why* someone wants the update. If there’s a dependency on your work, what does that team member need to know? Your boss is probably trying to juggle communicating timeline updates to stakeholders with making sure your blockers are being resolved.

      **Seeking Help**
      Combining this with your comment about getting tunnel vision and trying the same thing over and over with no success. Start setting a timer or a limit. If you can’t make measurable progress in X time, you ask for help. If you try the same thing 3 times, you have to move on.

      Are you in person or remote? I find it is harder to ask for help when remote because you feel like you are interrupting, so the most I can give you there is build relationships with team members so that it is less awkward. If you are in office, I usually recommend drinking a lot more water. The regular trips to for refills / bathroom breaks force an interruption and it is a lot easier to realize that you’ve been stuck too long than when you are at home and just don’t move.

      **Mentoring**
      Do you have a mentor? Can you ask for a designated person to work with for a set amount of time so that you can get comfortable going to George with questions while you get used to announcing to the team “I’m lost in the database”.

      If possible, try to get two people: one who is junior and one who is senior. The senior is obvious because they have all the knowledge! But the junior is someone who can help with the easier and more obvious questions. Plus they won’t always have all the answers but can show you how they go about finding the answers. It also can help the junior mentor with their career, because getting experience in mentoring is very valuable.

      **Final thought**
      It sounds like your manager wants to work with you but is out of ideas. If you don’t have a complete plan, start by asking for help! Write a draft – any draft – and get it in front of your manager. Tell them you aren’t sure what the format should be and you would appreciate feedback on to turn it into a real plan.

      It may also be worth asking your manager in a future conversation (after you’ve done the goal setting) if they feel like there are environmental issues that aren’t working for you so that you keep that in mind for the future. Like if this is a remote job and you’d do better with an in-office role, or it is a startup but you’d benefit from the structure of a corporate role.

      Finally, consider whether being a dev is a good fit for you. I mean this kindly – there’s a lot of non-developer jobs in the tech space where you can use your skills. Being a dev generally means being in over your head and figuring stuff out, collaborating with others, and has way more communication requirements than the stereotypes say. Perhaps automated testing could be something to look into, where doing the same thing over and over produces a robust bug report and is a good thing.

  124. Dragonfly7*

    Advice for starting a conversation with my medical provider about intermittent FMLA?
    I have 6 chronic illnesses. I no longer plan vacations because I will use up my PTO on being sick. I haven’t even been at New Job 8 weeks and have already had 4 sick days (more than I’ve earned).

    1. Rara Avis*

      I messaged my main contact person at the doctor’s office and she generated the FMLA letter for HR within an hour. Is your medical provider new with the new job?

    2. MayHaveToWaitOrPay*

      Be aware many doctors have started requiring an appointment for any paperwork and some others charge an admin fee. The willingness to do anything outside of appointment (and the traditional reimbursement mechanisms) has gone way down; this is one of many symptoms.

  125. How to start an association?*

    Does anyone have experience starting an alumni association that could point me toward resources? There’s a national group I’m involved in for high schoolers (US based) where I know a lot of the students have an interest in maintaining a connection after they graduate, plus there is great networking for jobs – not just internships for the students, but even the adults who volunteer help each other. I think these types of groups are super great when moving to a new area or needing to recharge your social life after a personal upheaval.

    I want to convince the non-profit group to allow me to start an official alumni association have favorable odds as long as I don’t ask for funding. But I don’t know where to start even if they say yes. I’m not sure what kind of social events we’d have – networking events in my city are held at breweries but half the people would probably be 18-20yr for the first couple years.

    1. More Coffee Please*

      I don’t have experience starting an alumni association, but I used to help run a university alumni club in my city that was part of a wider alumni association. I agree it’s a great resource for people new to the area. If I was starting one from scratch, I’d start with information gathering – finding all the names/email addresses of local alumni in my area. If that information doesn’t exist, you’d probably have to start there (e.g., working with the university to get info), or at least give people some way to opt in (e.g., if there’s a national alumni newsletter that could publicize local events).

      You’d ideally form a small team of club leadership for each city/region where you want to start a club. It would be great if this included alumni across class years i.e., both recent and not-recent graduates. The graduates of different class years can help plan events that will attract other people from their years. You can also rely on these local leaders to invite their friends from the group to events.

      As for what types of social events you can have for 18-20 year olds, I think you should definitely involve people of this age group in the planning. But some ideas might be volunteering (e.g., mentoring high school students still in the national group) or board game nights.

      I do think alumni associations offer more value to people who are a little older since it becomes harder to get to know new people and make new friends as you age. So I wouldn’t worry too much if you don’t have robust turnout from the 18-20 age group.

  126. WootWoot*

    I have a quandary — I’ve been in a job for four years that used to be a great job. But then we went through a big reorganization and my boss changed to one who is capricious and seems jealous of those of us who are more experienced and knowledgeable. I also lost my office and most of my staff, though they’re all supposed to be replaced in the next six months, and it’s just been…not good. I was asked to apply for a job that would be a promotion and then passed over. I was put on something that looks a lot like a PIP but isn’t called one for not filing reports fast enough and for failing to meet the expectations of an employee of mine who was sexually harassing other employees — I couldn’t fire him, and he has since quit. And I’m supposed to move to the home office this summer after working remotely for years — I was always supposed to do this, but my primary manager and previous leadership actually told me it wasn’t necessary because I do a great job remotely. A few weeks ago one of the more experienced managers, like myself, was fired without notice or any cause because one of the senior leaders who has no idea what she is doing insisted on it.

    So, I have been interviewing for new jobs. I don’t mind moving, actually, and I love my work in some ways and the clients that I serve, but I don’t trust my leadership at all. I just declined one job, where I currently live, and am now expecting an offer from another one where I live currently. There’s a third that I have been heavily recruited for by my old bosses (who left before the reorg) that I expect a job offer from near the end of the month, near the home office I’m being asked to move to.

    So…I adore my manager that relates to my clients, and I love my CEO. Is there any point at all to having any kind of conversation with any of them, or my boss, when I receive an offer that is worth taking?

    1. WellRed*

      Why? do you think they’ll magically see the light and correct all that’s wrong with the company as well as the way they’ve treated you? Your are already getting more offers or close offers than many of us get in years of searching. That should tell you you are valuable and your current job should be in the rear view. If that’s not enough, let me say, current job Will Not Get Better. Getoutgetoutgetout!

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      Oh dear, no! All that goodwill that was built up in you is for things that are long gone. Don’t waste your breath or time on this. It will not result in anything positive for you.

  127. Cee Es*

    What’s your teams’ or companies’ thoughts on looking up the job candidates’ social media profiles? My manager’s playbook for the upcoming hiring includes “Googling the job candidates including social media for red flags”.

    If you have happy or horror stories about social media in the workplace or job search, please feel free to share.

    1. Annie*

      My concern with looking up a candidate on social media is that it opens the door to unconscious bias leading to discrimination based on protected class status in a way that other research on a candidate wouldn’t, e.g. a candidate may announce a pregnancy or disclose other medical info on social media sooner than that candidate would be comfortable sharing in a work context.

      If you proceed with looking up candidates on social media, get clarity with what you’re supposed to be looking for as “red flags”, whether it’s evidence of a cavalier attitude toward workplace rules or the law, conflict of interest concerns, or safeguarding concerns re: children, animals, elderly, etc.

    2. TotallyNormal*

      Standard practice everywhere I’ve worked and (based on convo/questions) most places I’ve interviewed.

      Be aware that I’ve been asked to defend my ability to get along with others when crackpots have ranted in my comments, and I know at least two people who lost opportunities because of trolls.

      Lock down/moderate/delete/report what you can as a job seeker, and realize what people can/cannot control as a possible employer.

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I know my spouse rejected a candidate whose most recent post (public) was bragging about their interview with him and detailing their unsuitability.

      I think it’s legitimate in some cases where online presence is relevant to the job itself – if you’re appointing someone to run your social media, for example, or anything to do with infosec or vulnerable people. In those cases the wrong kind of post could absolutely be disqualifying.

    4. allathian*

      I’m in Finland and here it’s illegal for hiring managers to Google candidates. They can only look at the profiles the candidates include in their application materials, typically LI.

      Jobs that require a particularly curated social media presence do exist, and candidates may be asked to provide links to their profiles if that’s the case.

      Employee loyalty clauses also apply to social media.

        1. Cee Es*

          This. I’m in Canada. Even without social media, we would ask internally if someone has worked with a job candidate.

          1. GythaOgden*

            Yeah, definitely. One (London) Times journalist exposed massive security issues in the prison service where he was able to apply and get through the interview process under his own name without anyone checking up on him — formally or informally — to show he was actually a journalist. They weren’t in direct danger from him, but for instance Ian Huntley, responsible for the Soham murders, was taken on despite background checks because he had only been arrested for grooming and DV rather than convicted. In those circumstances, the reluctance of witnesses to testify is the weak point in the judicial system — and so Huntley evaded the forerunner of our current system and was able to take a job with close proximity to vulnerable children. Now the system takes arrests into account — we can’t really go further than that without turning into Minority Report, but at least it ensures that processes for crimes of that nature that fall through aren’t overlooked.

            I do know some journalists mess about with literary agents to ‘prove’ famous works of literature wouldn’t get published today (because, duh, everyone in publishing knows the opening to Pride and Prejudice and realises you’re a plagiarist, and they’re just too kind to say that what worked for readers 200 years ago wouldn’t work now for reasons that would be blindingly obvious were you actually a consumer of contemporary fiction and not a complete snob about it) but they don’t generally get much further than the query letter.

            For sensible organisations like anything to do with secure institutions and childcare, I’d hope that Finland — perched on the edge of a large, ornery neighbour who was shooting verbal missiles at it regularly and who is known to interfere in the affairs of its enemies using covert ops, psy-ops, cyberterrorism and so on — would be a place doing more due diligence than just self-reported packages. That quickly becomes a real danger if even government institutions are unable to do follow-ups with candidates.

            I get the impulse, but that is going to cause real problems in cases of national security and government offices.

        2. anon_sighing*

          It’s a law in the same vein as “don’t ask people they’re pregnant or anything else that could come back and bite you as discrimination” is the golden rule. If they figure out you looked them up and didn’t hire them as a result, that could be the trouble — but it’s proving that’s the reason that’s a gray space. At best it’s a legalized guidance.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      I always Google candidates. I’m in the U.S. It has saved me from hiring some very unsuitable people, criminally speaking. And I have an excellent track record of hiring a very diverse population of folks.

    6. anon_sighing*

      How sure are you its the right person? That’s what I’d be scared of. Candidate Joe Smith is being punished for another Joe Smith’s distasteful Twitter messages, for instance.

    7. GythaOgden*

      Safeguarding would be our concern. I’m not in recruiting and am not front-line based in an actual clinical site, so I have no idea, but given we work in hospital facilities, we’d want to do a formal background check for most of the people wandering about on-site. We vet the contractors we pay to work on our sites through an induction process, so we really ought to be doing some vetting of who actually works for us.

      Informal checks are a different matter but I’d trust my organisation to do it properly given the diversity we do have in our ranks. It doesn’t stop the odd wally getting through but I would be uncomfortable with somewhere that relied totally on self-reported CVs etc and didn’t do due diligence to ensure the people they were employing were at least safe to work with. There’s a balance somewhere and I’m assuming the checks don’t get too casual, but for positions within secure facilities or with access to vulnerable people or information I would hope some effort would be made to ensure that they know who they’re employing.

    8. Educator*

      I’m of two minds about this, coming from the world of education. On the one hand, pictures of people doing the completely innocuous–wearing a less than conservative outfit, being an adult having a drink with other adults, voicing a political opinion, etc.–on social media can be disqualifying in education hiring, and that is taking it way too far. And it can be really hard for hiring managers to draw the line between “this is an adult living their life” and “this is an appropriate thing for me to judge.”

      On the other hand, people who are applying for education jobs should know to make their personal stuff invisible to the general public. And almost all do. So if an applicant has not taken those pretty basic steps, I would have to wonder about their judgement in other areas. And I know other people–especially students and parents–are definitely going to Google, so I feel obligated to get ahead of that.

      So I don’t think there is a perfect answer here, especially if you are hiring for public-facing or client-facing roles. I don’t want to, but I have to.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Indeed! (You’d get on well with my mum, who was a headteacher until she retired ten years ago and still sits on the board of directors for a private school locally.) Whatever we’d like to happen, there’s a reality at play here that is at times incredibly unfair. However, I do know that more than once my mum has had to have a conversation with a teacher — both men and women — about avoiding the appearance of problematic behaviour. There’s an implicit rule in the upper parts of the school system here where teens in their last year of school are of age to drink (18). So the students go to one pub, the teachers go to another, and thus there’s no awkwardness about fraternising with the other side of the desk. I stopped going out like that just before I was of legal age (I started to get weirdly claustrophobic while at pubs and clubs and decided enough was enough; the local venue for small bands allowed kids in over 16 so long as they weren’t drinking) but my sister said it was really well-established when she was in her last year of school and doing more socialising than I was.

        In our safeguarding training we’re certainly warned about the //appearance// of impropriety as well as the actual fact of it. You may know that you are clean, but the optics of something are a big deal because if there’s a chance something could be going on a lot of us are mandatory reporters and it could be difficult to determine from the outside — and we live in an incredibly cautious society because we’ve been collectively burned so much.

        I no longer use Twitter/X or Facebook, and deleted my Reddit account earlier this year because I was being drawn into too many frivolous arguments and was generally cutting the cord anyway. I don’t miss any of them and besides the odd casual comment on YouTube, this is the only site I now hang out on regularly because of the quality of debate.

  128. Axolotl*

    I am in a kind of odd situation with a potential job offer and could use some advice. I applied for a role that is adjacent to my role – I wasn’t a slam dunk by any stretch, but I had some relevant experience. The hiring team contacted me to let me know I am an excellent candidate for a role that is scheduled to open up in Q3, and they might be able to “pull some strings” to hire someone in earlier. This role is a dead match for my background. I had great conversations with the hiring team and have a check-in scheduled with the hiring manager next week. I don’t want to count my chickens before they hatch, but I was wondering how I would handle it if they say they would like to hire me but they couldn’t get the budget to open the role sooner. I was thinking of saying I’d be happy to join with a start date of sometime in Q3, but is this a dumb move? I’m worried I’d turn down other opportunities in the meantime, and then Q3 would role around and they’d say the budget was rescinded or something, and I’d be out of luck. I’d ask for a signed offer letter of course, but I know that’s no guarantee and a lot can happen in a few months. Thoughts? Hopefully they’ll tell me they made it happen sooner and o can start right away, but I want to think through all the possibilities!

    1. Cordelia*

      well, if they say the start date is in Q3, they could still pull out, but so could you. I think it partly depends on what your current job is like – are you happy enough there that you could wait for this one to come up, and be ok if it doesn’t? Or are you desperate to leave where you are? I’d say yes to the job if it’s offered but continue looking around in case something even better comes up. As you say, a lot can happen in a few months, but that goes both ways.

    2. Cazaril*

      Say that you’d be happy to start in Q3, but without a firm offer that you will continue to look at other positions. Then do so. Things can also change for you, and if they leave you hanging, they are taking a risk.

      1. Axolotl*

        And if they did come up with a firm offer, just with a state date of a few months out, is that “safe” to accept? Or is it risky if there’s a huge amount of time until the start date?

        1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

          Being in Europe, I’d ask for a contract with that start date, which would be legally binding, but assuming you’re in the US they presumably they won’t offer that – because they want to be able to dump you without any consequences if that suits their business needs better.

          So, it’s risky. That budget might disappear before your start date.
          If you do accept the offer, definitely keep applying to other jobs – you could tell them this and if they are at all reasonable they must understand your pov.

    3. TX_Trucker*

      I have made that same offer to job candidates before. I fully expect them to express interest. but also to keep looking for other prospects. I have honest intentions when I mention a future position. But stuff happens all the time that changes the hiring landscape.

  129. More Coffee Please*

    I have a question on thank you notes. My partner interviewed for a job the other day and only after the interview realized he should have gone into more detail about a specific project he completed. The project was relevant to what the company was currently trying to do, and he thinks he missed an opportunity to highlight his skills/experience. Can he mention this in his thank you note, and if so, how would you recommend doing that? Are there any examples of this in the AAM archives?

    I was thinking something along the lines of: “I’d be excited to help [company] achieve its goal of [xyz]. I realized after our conversation that I didn’t go into detail about this, but in my prior role I helped [company] achieve [xyz]. [Insert more details] I’d be interested to see where this project takes [company] and would be excited to be a part of it”

    1. JMR*

      That sounds perfect to me! I think it’s always a good idea to use thank-you notes to call back to, and then add to, the conversation you had with the interviewer.

    2. Letter reply*

      Yes—there’s a very relevant column in the archives, read it a week ago but can’t find it right now. It had thank you notes in the title. Maybe something about the purpose of them and it shouldn’t be just going through the motions.

  130. LadyVet*

    Has anyone heard of LeaderUP? One of their recruiters/coaches(?) has emailed me four times about their “incredible” job-finding program. But I can’t find a lot about them on Google.

    1. Rick Tq*

      The web site is a sales pitch for their products from everything I see. Lots of ‘stuff’ for a mere 997 (not A Thousand) dollars. The internet domain leadrup.com has been registered since 2021 but the Registrant Contact is “Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 7151571251” with all addresses delivering to a Toronto, ONT Canada address. There is no contact information at all on the web site.

      Hiding the actual owner of the Internet domain isn’t a good sign in my book.

  131. Uneasy Student*

    I applied for an entry-level bookkeeper at a family business. They said their reason for posting the position as entry-level is so the new hire won’t challenge the way they want things done. It made me suspicious that they might be looking for someone too inexperienced to know whether they’re keeping their books properly. Am I being paranoid? Is there something I can ask them in the second interview that would ensure I’m not going to be asked to violate legal or professional standards?

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’d tell them you wouldn’t reorganise their system or methods if they want to continue as they have been BUT that you must uphold the legal and professional standards of your profession – add wry chuckle – which of course they would never ask you to violate.
      Then wait for their reaction.

      If you are still uncertain, you could then ask for specifics about what they don’t want the new bookkeeper to change.

    2. GythaOgden*

      This is so fishy that you might as well be applying to work on a trawler. Run.

    3. Educator*

      Even if there is nothing illegal/nefarious going on, a place that does not want you to challenge the way things are done is not a place you want to work. Good companies constantly evolve to maximize efficiencies, take advantage of new technology, etc. and want to hire people who will learn and help evolve their roles. Part of the point of being entry level is learning how to be in the workplace, and “don’t ask questions or help us improve” is a lesson that will set you back years professionally.

  132. Retired or unemployed?*

    Hope it’s not too late to submit this question to y’all
    Spouse retired in June , but when he turned in the resignation letter the company asked if he would consider switching to part-time consulting since they still needed his expertise on some things . he agreed and his been working minimal hours helping them out .
    They just informed him that the contract paying for his work has had budget cuts so they no longer need his services. we are OK with that since he was originally going to retire back in June butThey want him to submit another resignation letter.
    He Pointed out he’s not resigning from part-time work — They told him he was no longer required… i’m curious. Is there a reason they want him to resign if instead of they were laying him off? Would that be unemployment or something?

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      They want him to quit, so they are ending his employment.
      NO need for him to submit his resignation.
      That would be the same answer whether he had retired once or not.

      Odd they requested the letter, but it could be to avoid unemployment as you say, or severance, or paying out PTO, or just because they are confused (!)
      Whatever the reason, he gains nothing from sending them the letter and he no longer needs their goodwill (assuming he doesn’t want to consult with them again)

    2. TX_Trucker*

      Are you in the USA? If so, is his part time work as a W2 employee still on the payroll, or a 1099 contractor? If he is an “employee” there are several different state rules for why a company may want (or need) to document a voluntary resignation. Unemployment is definitely one of them.

    3. anon_sighing*

      Could he say “I don’t feel comfortable submitting a resignation for a position I’m being laid off from due to budget cuts, as I am not resigning from the position.”

      What are they gonna do, fire him?

  133. mambono6*

    I had a real problem with an employee I manage last week.
    She has a very loud voice and she’s chatty. I don’t mind this too much, but when it gets above a certain level, it becomes difficult for me and others to concentrate. People a few rooms over can also hear her, so I have a duty to do something before one of them come out and yells at my staff.

    One day last week, I had to say something about it multiple times. The third time, I addressed a group of people at her desk—not her, specifically, because they were all being loud—and after that, I noticed a major shift in her attitude towards me.

    She’s now being openly and obviously cold towards me. It’s bordering on hostile, and there’s some passive aggression there that wasn’t there before.

    I get it. It feels personal. People can feel how they feel; I’m not saying they can’t. I always try to deliver feedback in a respectful way and I am very careful with my tone. But it is my *job* to say something, much like it is her job to tell customers ‘no’, for example.
    I have to think about everybody else in the office. I try to say things clearly, but with care. I’ve considered what I said and how I said it over and over and I thought I was polite and reasonable.

    I’m concerned this will get weirder. I advised my direct supervisor about this while I was speaking with him about another issue I had with this employee, so he knows what’s going on and asked me to keep him posted.
    I don’t want to make a bigger thing of this than it is, but where’s the line between just being cordial and an attitude problem?

    1. GythaOgden*

      PIP or other form of progressive discipline or verbal warning, now. She can’t go on like this — she needs to moderate her voice and she needs to treat you with the basic respect that she owes you as her manager. She needs the wake-up call of something stinging at least, but better that than suddenly losing her job.

      FWIW I can get animated and fairly loud if something interests me or I get going. I build up a lot of momentum, and while I’m not one of those people who makes a running commentary on everything (like my mum or my former co-receptionist), I’m certainly difficult to stop once I get started (autistic FTW :-/; I’ve started very one-sided conversations on WhatsApp with my mum — showing her my current cross-stitch project and then ending up with a diagram of the power plant co-owned by France and Belgium located on a bend in the river Meuse. The train of thought didn’t so much get derailed as shot through several red signals, took a wrong turn at Albuquerque and ended up crumpling into someone’s house like in Thomas the Tank Engine).

      But if my manager finger-wagged me about it, I’d take a deep breath and keep a lid on it and accept being in the wrong. She needs a very strong talking to with some consequential back-up, preferably something in writing to her like a stern email or full write-up, and follow-through if you don’t see any improvement or her hostility becomes worse.

      I know it’s easier said than done. I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve had to ask someone to pipe down where I didn’t think they’d be respectful of my needs and help sort the problem out (I’m thinking of a loud party on the mezzanine at my old office right above reception with people who hadn’t seen each other much since 2020 — but their department admin was a good friend and a quick whisper to her gave her the authority to ask people to be mindful of us below). But I think the gloves need to come off here: you can’t say you haven’t tried a gentle approach, but she can’t be this kind of disrespectful towards your authority without reasonable consequences and formal follow-through.

      Good luck :). Update us — the more examples we have of this sort of situation, the more other people can learn from them. A lot of people here bend over backwards to be kind and understanding, and conscious of employee wellbeing, but there’s a kind of trade-off where things like this get spun out too long. I also think living in a system where there are barriers to sudden firing helps because not everything will rise to the level of gross misconduct where you can let someone go, but having been a fly on the wall for a couple of HR actions recently (as a scribe), I’ve seen HR and their investigations really strive to be genuinely fair and unpick a gnarly situation so we balance out the problems, make recommendations going forward and ensure that an adversarial situation can be de-escalated into a cooperative search for solutions.

      You do have to make judgements, but the way through in my very limited opinion is to be able to be stern but keep anger out of it. She needs to realise that her behaviour is unacceptable, and that you’re going to work with her to fix it, but there are consequences for not working with you to develop a new protocol. The facilitation process in our workplace focuses on relationships between manager and managed rather than on concrete performance, and works with both parties to come to an agreement of where they can both work to improve the relationship, but I think in order to really drive the message home you might have to enact some kind of formal warning for her to take notice of this.

      1. mambono6*

        Thanks for this; I appreciate it so much. And I’m glad to hear this is useful for others.

        Your example is super relevant, in fact: This employee is neurodiverse—as am I (and she knows this). When I was in that role before, I got that same note once or twice (and not always very kindly), so I definitely know how it can feel. But it’s like you said—ideally, she would take the note and/or speak to one of us with any concerns.

        We don’t have regular one-on-ones at any level in this workplace (but we’re working on it), and we have yet to be in a position to put someone on a PIP (both of us are newer managers). My supervisor has been supportive with this, however. I’ll let him know how it plays out this week and go from there. Thank you for your help!

    2. SunnyShine*

      If I’m reading this correctly, you told her multiple times in one day to be more quiet? I think if your request wasn’t acknowledged, then it’s worth a conversation during a one-on-one. Of there is any feedback, share with her the feedback you are getting from others. That is a lot of behavior monitoring in one day. Most people will take that as parenting and would be put off by it.

      You don’t have to save her from the actions of others either. I work in an open space office and we all tend to get loud now and then. It’s fairly normal to ask others to quiet down.

    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Sounds like she’s going to get ever more childish unless stopped sharply.
      I suggest you agree with your boss asap what disciplinary steps you should take, e.g. a 1-1 warning and then a PIP if that doesn’t work

      She must correct 2 issues: 1) her volume and 2) her attitude to you.
      So state both clearly in the 1-1 and warn the next sttep will be a PIP (if your boss has agreed)

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