feuding coworkers, is saying “my calendar is up to date” rude, and more

by Alison Green on July 12, 2024

It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go…

1. My coworkers are feuding over a text, a lack of condolences, and some coffee

We have two colleagues in our office, Pam and Sarah, who do not get along. Sarah’s mom passed away recently, and she sent a text message to our people in the office letting them know. It should be noted that she left Pam off the text. I did not respond to the text message because I am older and find texting and social media to be impersonal, so I was going to call her the next day. Pam also did not send a text to Sarah that day (again, Sarah left her off the text sharing what happened).

The next day, both Pam and I woke up to a text message from Sarah that read, “Thanks for the condolences” and had a picture of her dead mother in her hospice bed attached. Knowing Sarah, I know she was drunk and emotional when she sent the text, so I didn’t think anything of it and called Sarah that evening. I told her I was sorry about her mom, and she apologized for the picture and that was that. We are fine. However, Pam has taken the picture as a personal affront, and she and Sarah no longer speak to each other.

Two weeks have passed, and this morning Sarah comes down to my desk asking where the key to the supply closet is. She said she was looking for the Green Mountain coffee but thinks we are out of it because Pam, who orders supplies, will not order it anymore because she is mad at Sarah and knows Sarah likes it. Since I have a company credit card, she asked if I could order it. I said I could try but I don’t order supplies. Next thing I know, Sarah is going into our manager’s office, and I hear her say, “Bob, can you order more of this coffee? Pam won’t order it because I was mad that she did not send me condolences, so I sent her a picture of my dead mother and now we only have Folgers.” I had to put my head under my desk and hide, I was laughing so hard. How is that sentence even possible in a sane world? Anyway, any advice on how to handle this situation?

The question is what Bob is going to do! He’s the one with the authority and obligation to deal with it. What he should do is talk to them and tell them they need to be civil to each other at work and it’s not okay to ignore one another or make supply-ordering decisions based on personal feuds. He also needs to tell Sarah that angrily sending a photo of her dead mom was inappropriate and upsetting and she needs to keep her communications to colleagues professional.

But that’s the tip of the iceberg! The fact that this happened at all, that it got to this point, that Sarah’s history is such that you knew she was drunk-texting — something’s going on in your office beyond this, and I strongly suspect part of it is that Bob isn’t actively managing the situation.

Luckily, it’s not anything you need to fix yourself; it’s not your job and you’re not the one with the authority to address it.

2. Is saying “my calendar is up to date” rude?

I work in a quality function at a large company, so we need to sign off on a lot of things that the various groups under our purview are doing. That usually results in a lot of quick meetings so the groups requesting our sign off can give us a quick rundown of the situation and allow us to ask questions. Oftentimes, these sign-offs need to happen relatively quickly.

Recently, someone was requesting my sign-off on a change and sent me a Teams message asking if I had time to meet that day. I responded, “Sure, my Outlook calendar is up to date” and expected the person to send me a planner.

This person, for some reason, flipped out when I said this, saying that I should have scheduled the meeting. I had no idea how long the meeting needed to be, who else to invite, etc., which is why I told them to schedule it.

I have to ask. Is it rude to say “my outlook calendar is up to date” and expect someone requesting a meeting to go ahead and schedule it?

No, it is not. It is very normal.

Moreover, even if it were a little rude — which it isn’t — your coworker’s reaction would have been wildly over the top. They could have simply replied, “Would you mind taking the lead on scheduling because of (reasons)?”

3. Customer is telling me too much about her family’s tragedy

I work at a bookstore. Recently I had a customer come in with a terrible situation; her son who plays football experienced a bad tackle and was seriously injured as a result. She was asking for medical books about the specific condition, as well as self-help books. I guided her to the appropriate section and expressed genuine sympathy and a hope that things get better. We didn’t have much that applied to the exact situation, so I ordered some for her as well.

The problem is, she’s a very frequent customer and she’s now giving me regular updates on the situation, some medical (he has a catheter) and some emotional (he’s told her he wants to die). I frankly didn’t ask and don’t want to know. I sympathize, truly, and I’m sorry this young man’s life has been so tragically altered but I’m here to do my job, not provide free therapy. I have my own background with losing someone young to suicide and hearing that this young man is considering taking his own life is genuinely triggering for me. How do I gently extricate myself from this situation? Should I talk to my manager about it? If so, what should I say?

First, are you able to quickly excuse yourself for work reasons — “good to see you, I’ve got to grab something for another customer” or so forth? If that’s not practical (or not practical every time), would you be comfortable saying something like, “I’m so sorry he’s dealing with this. It’s hard for me to talk about because of a situation in my own family — I hope you understand”?

But it’s also okay to talk to your manager about it; this is the kind of thing that you can ask someone above your pay grade to handle.

4. My boss is mad that I communicate better than she does

I’ve been with my company for 15 years, in my current position for nine. I’m one of the team leads. There are similar leads for other teams in our group. We each are responsible for supervising and mentoring the members of our teams, as well as facilitating conversations with other groups and setting/enforcing policies and procedures. As the longest-tenured lead, I have a few additional responsibilities which extend to our full group. My current manager is the third since I’ve been a lead. They were an internal hire who was familiar with me, my work, responsibilities, and how I interacted with the team and my previous managers.

Recently we had our company-wide employee survey, and my manager scored low on communication and team engagement. A couple of weeks later, I got a call from them telling me that I talked too much in meetings, it was inappropriate that my team came to me for group-related issues instead of just ones solely focused on our assignments, I should not be making policy and procedure decisions, and I needed to quiet down and let them handle anything that wasn’t specific to a particular assignment. Through the course of the conversation, I gleaned that they had just had a meeting with their manager, and the issues with their communication came up. Apparently I was used as an example of good communication and what my grand-boss would like to see out of my manager. But instead of using that to improve their style, I’m being told to curtail my work and behaviors.

Fine, I can mostly deal with this (although it does have me brushing up my resume). My question is how to explain to my team why suddenly I’m referring questions to our manager. And how do I tell people sending me requests from outside teams that instead of getting a prompt response from me, they’ll have to contact my manager and wait weeks for an answer? I’m afraid that they’ll interpret this change as if I’ve done something wrong and it will affect my reputation. I know my not speaking up during discussions in meetings has been noticed already and I’m not sure how to address that, either. So far I’ve just been saying “Manager wants to be more involved in X” but that doesn’t feel quite right either.

Wow, your manager is an insecure ass.

How’s your relationship with your manager’s manager? Any chance you could talk to her about these new directives? If she held you up as an example of the sort of communication your boss should be modeling, she’s probably going to be pretty unhappy to hear how your boss handled it. Make sure to say that you’re concerned about retaliation from your boss if they find out you went to your grandboss with this; your grandboss should be able to finesse that if she’s reasonably skilled, but it’ll help to flag it as a specific concern.

Beyond that, just be straightforward with other people: “Jane has asked to be more involved with stuff like this” … “Jane wants to be the point of contact for this” … etc. It sounds like you have an excellent reputation and Jane does not; it’s highly likely that people will know that the problem is Jane, not you.

You may also like:
{ 680 comments }

{ 680 comments… read them below }

  1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

    4. My boss is mad that I communicate better than she does – “and my manager scored low on communication and team engagement.”

    I’m actually shocked and glad employees felt empowered and safe enough to be honest on those surveys!

    With someone as insecure and easy threatened as this men, I see him becoming more of a nightmare unfortunately. Usually these types are also sneaky snakes too. I don’t had advice, because with someone like him, there will be no right right to handle it. But just want to commiserate with you.

    1. Banana Pyjamas*

      Your last paragraph is on point. My last boss had a history of bullying people she felt threatened by, at least two other people in an office of six. She ended up firing me for deciding to get a higher certification, but framed it as going outside my chain of command. LW4 I strongly recommend dusting off your resume.

    2. Alexis Carrington Colby*

      Wow, I clearly did not proofread, sorry y’all! It’s been a week lol

    3. Brain the Brian*

      Yes, LW4, you really need to talk with your grandboss about this if you can. Your manager is supposed to be improving his communication, and he’s doing the exact opposite. Big yikes.

      2. Artemesia*

        Absolutely. This insecure bully is going to try to ruin your position in this workplace. You need to transfer, find a job elsewhere or the bully needs to be reined in.

        Go to the grandboss and be pretty frank about the fact that manager used the feedback the grandboss gave to criticize how you function in the team. Ask him about other opportunities in the organization and tell him or her very explicitly that you are afraid of retaliation if he learns you talked to the GB — because ‘I am already experiencing what retaliation just from the feed back you gave my manager.’

      3. Star Trek Nutcase*

        Hopefully, your grand boss WILL do something. Mine didn’t. The result was other departments’ staff figured out my manager’s lunch & break times so they would call or come by to deal with me or my coworker (these were immediate fulfillment needs or questions about availability, etc). I can’t tell you how many would hang up if she answered or was found to be in the office – it was pathetic and funny. (This is one consequence of a manager having personal dirt on a grand boss, and it being known she “would” use it.)

    4. BellaStella*

      OP4 and also to reply to Alexis Carrington Colby:
      I agree that it is good the employees felt safe to be honest but but but….this can backfire as it was starting to do so with this meeting. OP, definitely do as advised and push stuff up to your manager and let them handle it. They are insecure and will punish you and / or ice you out and / or make your work life difficult because they are jealous and annoyed at you.

      But as Alexis notes, these types of managers are not gonna change.

      Also surveys are never anonymous as the team I am on found out in January, and well… we are still dealing with fallout from this as in a company of 1000+ people the team I am on gave our manager the worst scores overall…. it has been a messy process resulting in more bullying from the manager for a few of us and it is bad enough several of us are looking for new roles.

    5. Vimto*

      Hey OP 4, if you haven’t already done so, follow up with your boss in writing “just to confirm” what she’s asked for. Even something like ‘just wanted to make sure that we’re on the same page following your request for x, y, & z. I’ve been directing queries about x from y team to you and have limited my comments in x meeting to just the project I’m working on. If you’d like this to change/ have any feedback, let me know’

      Because I would put cash money on her boss getting complaints about her/your department in a few month’s time. And if she’s insecure enough to tell you to talk less in meetings, she’s 100% enough of a weasel to blame you for passing the buck. but that’ll be harder when there’s email proof that this is all of her own making

      1. BellaStella*

        This is so true. I really struggle with this because in a couple of decades of working this always is the case. OP4 – do make sure you have a paper trail to confirm things. And consider also sending these sent emails to your home email too.

      2. Also-ADHD*

        This was my first thought—I would definitely want this documented because otherwise it will just be you acting differently and no clear evidence why.

      3. New laptop who dis*

        100% this. Your manager is going to throw you under the bus. I’d document EVERYTHING and also make sure your grand boss understands what’s going on, because you have a target on your back.

      4. Artemesia*

        And make the email very explicit about you have been asked not to do and BCC it to the grandboss. But I’d meet with the grandboss immediately just before sending this and give him or her an alert that it is coming.

    6. Sloanicota*

      To be honest, it sounded to me like there might be some fuzziness (“gleaned / apparently”) about what was said in the meeting, and although it’s possible OP was held up as an exemplar, it might also have been something adjacent to that, more like “why is OP handling X, that’s not in her role,” or “I’d like to see you take more ownership of Y.” At the very least I guess that’s the way I’d try to think about it.

      2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        I thought that too, that OP may be taking on things she shouldn’t. She might be the better communicator, but the boss is still the boss. Workload and issues are her purview beyond the specific things that OP is the lead on.

        OP your boss may be the problem, but you also need to assess what you are doing. Are you using the fact you’ve been there 15 years and have had 3 supervisors while you were a lead cause you take over because well you just know how its done and its faster that way?

      3. Velociraptor Attack*

        I thought that too. Part of this is taken from the fact that in the last year I took over a team of individual contributors who had been through a few managers and were used to doing things how they wanted. I’ve had to come in and say hey, those things actually need to come through me and part of it is because I’d be asked about things from people higher in the organization and have no idea.

        This could be the case, or it could be that OP’s manager is being an “insecure ass” but I really think Alison jumped the gun on presuming that. If OP is fielding policy/procedure decisions, not just directing people to where they can review those, yeah, those are things that maybe should be going to the manager.

        1. Also-ADHD**

          If there is a legitimate reason to change the communication channels, the manager needs to convey the reasoning to LW and the change to everyone though. The way its being done seems designed to make LW look badly. I think LW isn’t reacting to things needing to go through manager or loop manager in (and honestly, if your lead is a good communicator, they could also loop you in proactively enough that the issue you mention isn’t a barrier to workflows in many cases) but rather to this secret idea of “just stop responding” without any actual workflows addressed.

          1. UnderTheRadar*

            Maybe the Manager has a point? Maybe the OP has gotten into the habit of taking on roles and responsibilities that properly belong to the Manager? It’s totally possible that Grandboss realized this and advised new Manager to get in there and pull OP back and take the reins. The fact that OP has been there for many years through many managers and has never been moved up might be an indication that her star is not as bright with her supervisors as she might think. She might be well advised to follow the directive and take a step back.

      4. KTB2*

        I disagree–while the letter does have some softening language, there’s no indication that the OP is overstepping their bounds. They’ve been a lead on the team for nine years, and they’re in charge of certain things. If those things aren’t what they are supposed to be doing, that requires a specific conversation about roles and responsibilities, NOT vague feedback like “don’t speak as much in meetings” and “don’t respond to group requests.”
        Those examples raise additional concerns about the manager’s communication abilities, not concerns about the OP and their performance.

    7. Trout 'Waver*

      Did OP#4 say their boss was a man? I got the impression they were trying to keep it gender neutral.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        OP definitely kept the boss gender neutral in their letter. And AAM used “Jane” to refer to the manager, so it’s very interesting to me that so many ppl here jumped to the conclusion that the manager is a man. (The fact that the boss told OP to talk less in meetings sure slanted the evidence that way.) My mind also immediately thought, “I bet the boss is a man who feels threatened by OP’s competence and I bet OP is a woman” but then checked myself when I realized we didn’t know the genders of anyone involved. Nor should we, IMO. It’s obvious the boss feels threatened by OP and even though this situation definitely screams “stereotypical male threatened by powerful woman” we don’t know that’s what’s going on and it honestly doesn’t even matter WRT the solution.* AAM’s advice is spot-on.

        Also, what’s up with this person being the manager of the whole group? It sounds like YOU should be the manager, OP, since you have such a long tenure and you obviously have a really good communication style. It probably wouldn’t be politic to seem like you’re gunning for your boss’ position, but when you talk to your grandboss about this situation, could you also discuss advancement possibilities for yourself? Or maybe do that at a different meeting later so as not to make it seem like you’re out to get the boss. But in any case, it sure seems like your boss is not the right person for their job. That sounds super frustrating to deal with.

        * Although if our reading on the situation is true and the genders are what we suspect they are, this could venture into a legal gray area if things escalate. But I don’t think what OP is describing is quite there yet.

        1. juliebulie*

          Funny, I thought “woman” not just because of “Jane” but also because I had a female boss like that. We’d get an email question, a fairly straightforward one from someone, it would have been a few hours after that and my boss hadn’t answered yet it so I assumed it was mine to answer. And then she would complain that “people will think that we don’t communicate.” Bingo.

          1. Slow Gin Lizz*

            Ha! Isn’t it fascinating how our own experiences can play into our interpretations of AAM letters? Even while I was thinking, that boss must be a guy, I also was thinking, otoh, I can see how a woman would behave this way too. And it really doesn’t change the advice at all. I really appreciate LWs who keep their letters gender-neutral, because then the comments here will focus on the issue at hand rather than going down the gender stereotype rabbit hole. (Tbf, there often is a reason to mention gender and in those cases it’s absolutely right that the LWs do so, but when it makes no difference, it’s nice to take gender out of the equation entirely.)

        2. Portlandia*

          Yeah, my worst boss ever was a woman and she was threatened by me a lot (I am a woman) and that’s just how she was. She absolutely would throw me under the bus at any opportunity. It’s annoying to have gender assumed in ANY situation.

          1. Slow Gin Lizz*

            Yes, totally! I find myself jumping to gender conclusions and then have to reverse my assumptions when I realize I don’t have the facts to jump to those conclusions. Not all men are terrible and not all terrible people are men.

      2. Name (Required)*

        The header on the letter is “My boss is mad that I communicate better than she does”

        1. Dahlia*

          Allison defaults to she/her when no pronouns are given, and she writes the headers, not the LWs.

    8. LW4*

      To settle a few things, my manager, grandboss, and I are all women, all about the same age, and I’ve worked with my manager in different capacities for my entire tenure at this company.

      She’s been my manager for just over two years and this was the first I’d heard of any issues. Having been in my position for so long I have expanded my role beyond what’s on paper, but have done that under other managers with their encouragement and support. Nothing had changed since she took over.

      Currently I’m taking in Alison’s and everyone else’s excellent advice and will spend the weekend sorting out what to do. I have a meeting with my manager mid-week and I’m hoping to use that to clarify some things and follow up with an email, then go from there.

    9. LW4*

      Oh, and in terms of my wanting/being a threat to her job that’s not an issue. I’ve been encouraged to apply each time it’s been open and I’ve been clear that I have no interest in it. I’d rather be hands-on support and mentor my small team rather than focus on budgets and strategic planning.

    10. LW4*

      Clearing up some other questions…my manager and I are both female, about the same age, and have worked together in various capacities my entire tenure at this company.

      Over the years I have expanded my role beyond what it is on paper, but always with the encouragement and support of my managers. I haven’t changed anything since she took over. She’s been my manager for almost two years and this was the first time there’s been an issue.

  2. BuildMeUp*

    …yeah, if someone sent me a photo of a dead person, I probably wouldn’t order their favorite coffee for them, either

    1. Goldfeesh*

      After leaving that person out of the text letting them know your mom had passed in the first place.

      1. Brain the Brian*

        Yeah. You can’t exactly expect someone to write with sympathy if you don’t tell them about your tragedy in the first place. Sarah’s reaction was so out of left field that I can’t help but wonder if she didn’t realize that she’d left Pam off the group text notifying everyone of her mom’s passing. The LW knows their coworkers better than we do, of course, but this is utterly bizarre to me.

        1. Andrew T Burke*

          Hi Brain the Brain
          OP1 here. I can assure you Pam not being on the text string was intentional. Sarah never includes Pam on any string. But before we all go after Sarah too much in the court of public opinion, here is another story. On office birthdays, Pam, and sometimes Sarah if they were speaking to each other, would decorate the birthday persons desk. One year Sarah’s birthday came around and Pam was mad at her so I decorated Sarah’s desk or she would have been upset. When Pam came into the office that morning, she went ballistic and made me take all the decorations down because she said that she had paid for them out of her pocket and she was not going to let them be used on Sarah. It was quite a scene. The result, however was a good one because now no one has their desk decorated.

          1. Learn ALL the things?*

            So what your saying is they’re both extreme over reactors to stuff and it’s been going on for a very long time, but your boss has never bothered to get a handle on it and make them be civil to each other in the workplace.

            Based on the names you chose, it seems as if your coworkers are women and your boss is a man, and this is a dynamic I’ve seen before with men supervising women. One of my former bosses would say he didn’t want to involve himself in “girl drama,” even though that drama was having an enormous impact on our work group. It’s misogyny and laziness and bad management.

            1. Petty Betty*

              I feel like your assessment sounds accurate based on the additional context the LW has provided.

              This is not only a co-irker problem, but a manager problem. LW should be looking for the emergency escape ejection seat, regardless of a parachute, and find a job that isn’t so toxic.

            2. Brain the Brian*

              I completely agree about the gender dynamics here. If the feuding coworkers were men, the Bobs of the world would call them into his office for a “boys talk” and tell them to shape up. That he seems unwilling to do the same for two women suggests he thinks either that they are incapable of behaving (probably not true) or that their behavior is not a problem because their work is not important (also probably not true). He needs to manage, whatever gender dynamics may be at play, and treat all of his employees like adults who are expected to show up and behave civilly with each other.

            3. Berkeleyfarm*

              Honestly, yeah, this kind of sounds like the boss is just thinking it’s “girl drama” when it’s really something worth stepping in for. It’s certainly how people prone to that sort of drama often get away with it.

          3. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

            So basically those two are at war with each other, have no plans on ever behaving like they’re kindergarten graduates, and the rest of the office just rolls with it?

            It’s good you can keep calm, but the fact that Bob is just letting all this happen is a huge red flag with “GET OUT” printed on it.

            1. Slow Gin Lizz*

              Yup. Both Pam and Sarah seem like missing stairs that Bob and everyone else just tiptoe around. Andrew T Burke, I suggest you read some of the older AAM posts about how bad jobs can warp your sense of normal and see if they resonate with you. This is Not Normal Behavior from good workers. And there are other AAM posts that say that if you have a terrible coworker and their manager isn’t dealing with it, then you don’t really have a coworker problem, you have a manager problem. This workplace is full of bees and Bob won’t do anything about it, which means you really just have a manager problem. I suggest you get out ASAP and find a job with decent people who don’t get mad if someone else’s birthday is celebrated.

              1. Kelly L.*

                That’s not what a missing stair is. They’re just assholes. A missing stair is a rapist that a whole community or subculture is covering for.

                1. L. Miller*

                  The broken stair doesn’t always necessarily have to be that extreme though.
                  I too thought of the broken stair when I read it.
                  It can be whatever dysfunction a workplace accepts and does
                  work-arounds for and expects everyone to accept that, or require they change their behavior to manage and accept it or a workplace that might even punish those who don’t.

                2. New Jack Karyn*

                  A missing stair is anyone whose behavior has become an ongoing problem, that a group refuses to address directly, but instead finds ridiculous work-arounds.

                  Even in the origin of the phrase, it was not exclusive to rapists, but covered creepers of less physical danger.

                3. Myrin*

                  A missing stair is a rapist that a whole community or subculture is covering for.

                  That is one example of a missing stair, not the entirety of it.

                  In fact, Cliff Jerrison – the inventor of this phrase – literally says in the blog post coining it:
                  “This isn’t just about sex. Just about every workplace has that one person who doesn’t do their job, but everyone’s grown accustomed to picking up their slack. A lot of social groups and families have that one person. The person whose tip you quietly add a couple bucks to. (Maybe more than a couple, after how they talked to the server.) The person you don’t bother arguing with when they get off on one of their rants.”

                  So, yeah, Sarah and Pam are very classic missing stairs, both of them.

          4. Not a lawyer butt*

            So you don’t have one banana ensemble wearing coworker but two.

            That does not make the situation better.

            1. Festively Dressed Earl*

              I dunno, OP is now one bananapants ensemble away from being able to make bananapants bread.

          5. Haha*

            I love that you can laugh about this. what a ridiculous, petty situation. people are so weird.

            1. Just Another Cog*

              People ARE so weird. And, Bob may be just like a manager I had in a former job. He was the only man and the rest of us were women. He spent an awful lot of time making “drama” happen between some of the women. He knew how to say stuff to one employee about another employee that didn’t seem inflammatory, but was. Then, after people were all riled up, he’d swoop in to “save the day” and make everything right again. It was weird and after I was gone for a while, I realized he did it on purpose so he could always be the hero. (And the women all thought he was a super hero).

              1. Just Another Cog*

                On second thought, OP’s Bob doesn’t sound like he does anything at all. Maybe he’s afraid of Sarah and Pam.

              2. Oregonbird*

                A classic clan/matriarch dynamic. To deflect time/energy expectations or consequences, the men create on-going drama, usually by “sharing” personal opinions; somehow, their role in the fallout and escalations is ignored, which I will never understand. A bit like not wondering why bodies always turn up when Jessica Fletcher comes to town. :-D

            1. Zephy*

              My money is on some stupid perceived slight from years ago that the other isn’t even aware of. One or both of them have Main Character Syndrome and took something as a personal attack, and they’re both categorically incapable of either saying something or letting it go, so you get this kind of nonsense.

              1. Brain the Brian*

                These two sound like significantly less professional versions of Paige and her coworker the LW from earlier this week. At least in that case, Paige was just being icy and was still communicating about work, whatever minor slight had put her out in the first place.

          7. theletter*

            I think the solution is to put Pam and Sarah in a large tub and slowly draw the water until it’s up to their ankles. Then they’ll bond and be friendly to each other!

              1. Goldfeesh*

                It’s how you can get two different groups of pet rats to share adversary and get along. Basic Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra but with rats.

          8. Devo Forevo*

            OP1, you have all my sympathy here. I worked with a Sarah and Pam. As the new person, I got the “buffer” cubicle in between them and had the pleasure of listening to them snipe all day. The kicker was that they simply had very different communication styles, but because of their hands off mananger, everyone else in the office was forced to wear headphones all day or listen to their bickering. When they tried to drag me into it, I met with the union and HR, showed them my therapist’s note, and told them they needed to find me another cubicle.

          9. Paulina*

            Since Sarah always excludes Pam, she may have just copied over (or autocompleted) an existing text string where she’d excluded Pam. However she should also know that she always excludes Pam, so even if that particular exclusion wasn’t deliberate, she should still be aware that she did it.

          11. Jake*

            Sending a photo of a dead person is several orders of magnitude crazier than this story.

            If I received a photo of a dead person from a coworker in that way, I’d be going to HR and my manager saying its me or them. If I didn’t hear back within 24 hours I’d just stop showing up.

            That is so wildly beyond the pale that the birthday cake story sounds normal in comparison.

          12. Artemesia*

            That should have put her on a PIP with a second instance leading to firing. You do not have to continue to employee people who behave like this.

          13. Dawbs*

            so many bees.

            the fact that this was business as usual is enough reason to update your resume.

          14. Kella*

            Personally, I find those two examples on very different scales. Yes, Pam getting so upset that decorations she bought were being used for Sarah’s desk that she demanded they were removed, is an overreaction and unprofessional, but it’s also fixable. Either the company pays for decorations going forward or no one gets birthday decorations, and this situation is avoided in the future.

            But what Sarah did is impossible to avoid because it’s a conflict she created. Pam cannot make sure to offer Sarah condolences when something serious happens in the future if Sarah withholds the information necessary to do that from Pam. No adjustment that coworkers make can prevent Sarah from getting drunk and antagonizing her coworkers with potentially traumatizing photos for a perceived slight. Sarah set up the situation so that she could punish Pam (and also punish OP, which tells me that for Sarah, this issue isn’t just about Pam). The only fix is changing Sarah’s behavior or removing her from the situation.

          15. Laser99*

            Are Pam and Sarah really so essential they can’t be let go? Because they both sound absolutely insufferable!

        2. E.C.*

          I have had something similar happen to me at work, in which coworkers specifically chose not to tell me something that was going on yet still obviously expected me to know about it. It’s not a great situation to be in.

      2. AngryOctopus*

        Right? I wouldn’t talk to you either if you had (in my experience of the situation) out of the blue sent me a picture of your dead mother with a sarcastic comment.

        Also, OP, I want to echo what Alison said–the fact that you say you KNEW Sarah was “drunk and emotional” speaks to an immense amount of problems in your workplace.

      2. duinath*

        I would keep her at an arms length. Professional and courteous, of course, but not close and not chummy. Seems like she’s already starting to try to rope LW into her shenanigans, and that way lies trouble.

      3. Cat Tree*

        Yeah, Sarah has a lot of issues. There’s something else I can’t put into words, but it’s odd to sort of “keep score” of who specifically gave me personal condolences.

        My example situation isn’t exactly the same, but when I had a baby many coworkers offered a “congrats” and many didn’t. In the whirlwind of chaos, I never kept a mental list of who I heard from and who I didn’t.

        It would be one thing if I didn’t hear condolences or congrats from my best friend during a big life experience, but it’s too much energy to keep track of individual coworkers. It’s a weird thing to focus on when there’s so much else to think about.

        1. Presea*

          I would probably notice who did and didn’t give pleasantries just because that’s how my brain happens to work, but I wouldn’t hold it against anyone! At most I might need to internally remind myself that it was probably nothing personal.

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Yeah, after my dad died, I had a couple of coworkers who didn’t send me condolences. Probably some I didn’t notice too. One I just remember because there was a staff meeting just after I got the news my dad had died and I asked this colleague a few days later, after I returned to work, if anything had been said at the meeting that I should know about and he was somewhat embarrassed because he realised then that he hadn’t said anything (until his reaction I hadn’t even realised).

          And no, it doesn’t bother me in the least that he didn’t say anything. An issue had arisen at that staff meeting with regard to the year group he was year head of and he was busy dealing with that; that was all.

          1. Boof*

            When my mom died (suddenly and unexpected and I had to go there and “pull the plug” as it were), I happened to mention it to ONE work person as a reason I wasn’t going to the new employee welcome event (I was graduating from fellowship and joining t he group) since I wanted to make it clear I wasn’t blowing them off. Work did send me flowers eventually, and I was actually surprised by it!
            But yeah the last thing I want is my work/coworkers up in my personal extreme grief, and even if someone is in extreme grief and drunk, texting someone a photo of their loved one’s corpse/last moments is… WTF. Needs some serious disciplinary actions, I mean it’s not sexual harassment but for sheer potential for visceral / emotional reactions I’d put it on par with unsolicited dic pics (and I hope there’s not a manager out there who would say THAT was just “off work interpersonal drama nothing to do here” although I know that’s probably not the case… shhh, let me pretend)

        3. Resentful Oreos*

          Agreed. I expect things like condolences, congratulations, etc. from my close friends, but coworkers? Especially in a large office, who can keep track? I look for support from my friends. With coworkers, I just expect consideration and politeness.

          The keeping score *is* weird, and it’s obvious there is bad blood between Sarah and Pam that goes back a long ways. Probably started over something petty like most of these things do!

          The drunk texting…losing your mom IS a big deal for most people, so I’d assume Sarah was just caught up in grief; still, it’s not really appropriate even when that upset to send *a picture of your mom’s dead body* – yiiiiikes.

          1. Christine*

            I’m appalled that she took a picture of her mother’s corpse! Who does that? Why? Do they have a photo album of dead bodies?

            1. Katherine*

              That’s pretty culturally specific; for quite a few different cultural groups having last photos of their loved ones is really important (I am not from one of those groups but my husband is and he has a photo of his cousin in a coffin saved in his “favorites” on his phone and it makes me uncomfortable but it’s really important to him, particularly since he was unable to attend the funeral). Sending photos of deceased loved ones out of spite however is not a cultural practice that I’m aware of.

        4. Berkeleyfarm*

          And on a very short time frame. Sounds like the HIGHLY inappropriate text arrived by the next morning.

      4. Annony*

        This seems to be a missing stair situation. OP is so used to Sarah’s bad behavior and how to work around her that she doesn’t even see the problem anymore.

        1. Venus*

          Not really. OP knows Sarah is bad, knows that the manager won’t fix things, and has accepted that it’s worth the paycheck. A missing stair is when the entire workplace refuses to admit the problem and works around it, whereas OP clearly does admit it and pushes back on Sarah, and I’m guessing everyone except the manager does too.

          1. Smithy*

            I think this is a case where both Venus and Annony are correct. Because to me, Sarah is classic missing stair.

            It’s entirely normal for someone to know someone is a problem, pushes back as mcuh as they can (which may not be much), but overall accepts the reality is part of receiving the paycheck. While OP did push back on the coffee piece, her response to the follow up text message is more missing stair behavior in my interpretation. She did respond to the second text message with a phone call expressing her condolences for her mom and making no note that Pam wasn’t on the original text message and that her response was inappropriate overall.

            Lots of people – workplaces and even friends – won’t respond via immediate communication (text, phone, email) following a passing. Instead they’ll send a card a physical card, flowers, food, etc. So not only being that angry in general, but particularly to your work colleagues is wildly out of line. The fact that the OP only pushes back when they think they can – and not when behavior is truly inappropriate – is very much so part of how an ecosystem that supports missing stairs thrives.

            1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

              Sarah’s bad behavior should be called out but right after her Mom died is not the time to do it.

              1. The Bill Murray Disagreement*

                I don’t entirely agree. I don’t think it falls on the LW to have done this (so I am not blaming them for choosing to go a different route), but if they had told Sarah, “It was inappropriate for you to send me a photograph of your mother, dead and in her hospice bed, because you were upset I didn’t respond to your text message,” I would think that was *entirely* reasonable.

                Grief does a lot of things to people and by and large, folks going through acute grief do deserve grace. But they don’t deserve total grace for ridiculous crap like what Sarah did.

      5. MCMonkeyBean*

        If it has only been two weeks since her mom passed, I have a *little* room for Sarah doing some stupid things… but at the same time I’m honestly having a hard time imagining *demanding* condolences from anyone, let alone my coworkers. And escalating things so far so quickly!

        If this behavior doesn’t seem all that out of character for Sarah then that would certainly be a bit of a “last straw” situation for me. If Sarah has never done anything like this before and is usually more level-headed then I might just back off for a bit and give her time to cool off before trying to reason with her that it isn’t fair to be mad at Pam for not responding to a text she was never sent.

        1. WhyAreThereSoManyBadManagers*

          Exactly & thank you, that’s wildly inappropriate even for someone grieving a recent loss. What if the deceased had violently lost their life to suicide, would she have sent that picture also? With all the history and drama preceding that, sending that picture would’ve been the last straw for me (as a manager I’d consider termination and as a coworker I’d be leaving that crazy drama filled place). And Bob is useless.

        2. sparkle emoji*

          Yes, this just isn’t acceptable behavior. If she’s sending drunk texts of this nature to coworkers often enough that LW is able to tell that’s what it is, it speaks really poorly of management and HR that she’s still employed.

        3. Clisby*

          No kidding. And there certainly are cultures where people take and keep photos of dead people, but the only ones I’ve ever seen were taken at the viewing, which usually (in my experience) precedes the funeral. I’m not aware of any group that makes a practice of taking a picture of a dead person in a hospital bed.

          (I lived a sheltered life. I was well up into my 30s before I attended an open-casket funeral and thought it was so weird.)

        5. learnedthehardway*

          Agreed – I’m appalled that anyone would do this. It’s so disrespectful to the deceased, as well as to coworkers.

        6. KitKat*

          “a picture of her dead mother in her hospice bed”

          I am hanging on to the possibility that the wording meant it was a photo of her mom [who is now dead] in her hospice bed [while she was alive]

          1. Petty Betty*

            Considering the very BS things I’ve seen people do (for example and on topic: sneak into a dead woman’s hospital room because her therapist in the hospital gave her the room number when the FAMILY and close friends didn’t, then take pictures of herself with the very recently deceased while the family was arranging to have organs donated and then posted those images on social media, tagging the deceased before the family had even had a chance to tell extended family she’d passed; under the guise of “closure”… it’s been 5 years and many of us refuse to talk to this person still, and she claims she’s unfairly ostracized from our friend group), nothing really surprises me. Getting drunk during fresh grief and sending images of a corpse to guilt trip people into sending condolences? Including your workplace enemy in that text message? Both highly inappropriate, but I’m not surprised considering how much the manager has let slide between Sarah and Pam already.

            At this point, it’s going to be hard to right this sinking ship. Bob needs to have a fundamental personality change, or he needs to be replaced with effective leadership who *can* start lowering the boom on Sarah and Pam.

        7. Oregonbird*

          Another option might be pin it respectfully to the cubicle wall with a black border and a sad emoji. Maybe poster sized.

          At least Bob wouldn’t be able to walk away at that point.

    3. TheBunny*

      It’s all messed up and while I totally get why the Green Mountain is no longer appearing, it’s an escalation of an issue that no one needs escalated. The manager should have talked to Sarah well before the coffee was a noticed concern.

      1. Filosofickle*

        We don’t even know Pam is intentionally not ordering Green Mountain, though! Sarah is assuming that.

        1. JB (not in Houston)*

          Based on the OP’s comment about birthday decorations, I think it’s quite possible that Pam is doing it intentionally. Even if that’s the case, though, Sarah’s behavior wasn’t ok.

        2. Lydia*

          I’m gonna go with the OP’s take on the situation. Sarah and Pam take some sort of righteous pleasure in annoying each other and the coffee is just one more manifestation of that.

          1. Resentful Oreos*

            And in turn they are annoying everyone else who has to work with them. I’ve worked in offices with feuding coworkers, and it’s bad for the atmosphere, even when you are not part of the feud. (When one or both try to draw you in and take sides…nopetopus time.)

      2. Snarkaeologist*

        Is there any evidence that specific coffee brand being out has anything to do with Sarah? Even if she’s somehow the only one in the office who drinks it, jumping from ‘we’re out’ to ‘I think Pam did this on purpose because she is mad about the photo of my dead mom’ seems like a lot.

        1. TheBunny*

          It wouldn’t be tne first place in the story where Sarah was responsible for “a lot”.

        2. JamieLynn*

          I think when ‘mad about the photo of my dead mom’ is even theoretically part of the equation, ‘a lot’ is probably a foregone conclusion. It does seem like a wild conclusion, especially since Green Mountain isn’t exactly an obscure brand likely to be drunk by only only one employee but we’re talking about someone who responded for a lack of condolences within 24 hours (including from someone she hadn’t even informed) with a photo of her dead mother, rational has left the room quite a while ago.

          1. MsM*

            I find it entirely plausible only one employee really, really cares about whether it’s available or not, though. Sarah’s behavior may have been the last straw Pam needed to go “heck with this; I’m just getting what’s on sale.”

          2. darsynia*

            I commissioned art from someone who sent me a proof at three AM the day before my husband’s birthday. I didn’t even check that email until 12-16 hours later, at which point they sent me a detailed, furious email about my responsibilities as the client, and how they’ll finish the art but the friendship they thought was developing was dead in the water. I had prepaid.

            Mixing friendship and business even in your own mind (as that artist clearly did) is always a bad idea, but gosh, I wish some folks could step away from being the main character long enough to realize not everyone has the same schedule as they do! This goes double for people you work with in person, because there’s something that happens in our brains when coworkers are pleasant and familiar.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              Even if, say, you’d signed a contract with that artist to get back to her within so many hours of an email and missed the window, the professional thing to do is send a polite, professional reminder, or follow up with a phone call, not write a screed about how you don’t care and “I thought we could be FRIENDS BUT FORGET IT” because you didn’t hear back in less than one day!

              Pam and Sarah have become that unhinged email, walking and talking amongst their colleagues.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          She does seem to jump to really negative interpretations quickly so it’s not the wildest speculation.

        4. Falling Diphthong*

          I feel like Sarah and Pat are bitterly blaming each other for rainy Saturdays and the wonky AC on 5th.

          1. ecnaseener*

            Or at least Sarah is. All we know of Pam is that she’s not speaking to Sarah, which is not an appropriate way to handle the situation, but there’s no sign she’s blaming Sarah for anything other than the thing Sarah deliberately did.

            1. Richard Hershberger*

              This. We have no real evidence that Pam is doing anything wrong, unless correctly taking an unspeakably rude text as, well, unspeakably rude is wrong.

              1. Learn ALL the things?*

                There’s a comment above from the LW, it sounds like the grudge is mutual and has been going on for a long time.

            2. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

              *Things* Sarah deliberately did. OP says in the comments that leaving Pam off the death notice was deliberate. So basically, Sarah withholds information, blames Pam for not cosmically knowing, and – bonus – gets to send an offensive photo and yell at Pam for the consequences of Sarah’s (in)action.

              1. Observer*

                True, but based on that comment, it’s also clear that Pam is not much better. The whole birthday thing is also a LOT.

                So it’s pretty clear that Sarah could very well be correct about Pam doing this deliberately. Note, that the LW seems to think that this is not wild speculation, eihter. And, no, it’t not OK for Pam to do this. Her job is buying the coffee that people want, which includes people she can’t stand.

                Sarah is a jerk with an alcohol problem. Pam is a jerk who is not doing her job. And Bob is a terrible manager who is just not doing his job.

                1. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

                  I feel it’s important to point out that Pam *has* done her job, though. She bought coffee for the office. The choice might be passive-aggressive, but the task was done and there isn’t that much difference in price and quality between the two brands. Yes, Pam was also childish about the desk decoration, but that seems to be a perk that she performed on her own initiative, not as official tasking.

                  So I still can’t see Pam as being just as bad on this evidence alone.

                  Bob is the next step up because you’re right, he’s absolutely a terrible manager who should have shut this feud down the minute it started.

                  But even he isn’t as bananapants as Sarah’s described behavior from start to finish.

      3. MBK*

        Exactly this. In the words of a classic Reddit meme, “The Iranian yogurt is not the issue here.”

    4. Siege*

      I lost my mom last year, and I cannot describe the level of furious I would be to get that text. Quit and move with no notice would be the best outcome in terms of maintaining a harmonious office.

      I am just absolutely boggled at the level of grace Sarah is getting. I know I still have my weird moments, but holy crap sending your coworkers pictures of dead people and drunkenly berating them surely, surely crosses a line of some kind. Taste and decency if nothing else.

      1. Lisa Vanderpump*

        Yup, I lost a parent and I would get banned from this site if I said what my response would be if I received a text like this. Sarah should tread carefully, when you purposely try to trigger people they might get triggered.

        1. hypoglycemic rage*

          yep – I also lost a parent and saw their body. if I got a photo of someone else’s deceased parent, that would be incredibly triggering for me.

          even without my own situation, I do not want to see that at all, but especially not from a coworker.

      2. Mellie Bellie*

        Same. I cannot even wrap my head around how this happened and that’s not the issue – it’s the coffee. Like at all. WTF?

      3. Turquoisecow*

        I have not lost a parent but I do not want to receive photos of dead people or be passive aggressively berated about condolences. Even if I were OP in this situation I would be appalled, never mind Pam not knowing about the death at all. I would block her number and then go and complain to the boss because I would not be able to be civil with Sarah.

        And if I were the boss in this situation I would be fuming.

        1. Observer*

          And if I were the boss in this situation I would be fuming

          That’s actually a real under-reaction. This behavior is appalling from both of them. And it’s time for the manager to actually start managing. The *LW* cna fume as it’s proably not in their power to do anything. The *manager* DOES have power here, and apparently has not used it.

      4. Great Frogs of Literature*

        My DAD sent me a picture of my dead grandpa (I couldn’t go to the funeral, so I get where he was coming from, but I did NOT need that) and I thought it was weird. Getting a dead-person picture from a coworkers I already didn’t get along with…

        1. Carol the happy*

          Photography of dead people in caskets was actually common, up until after WWI. If a photographer was in town, or the person had never been photographed, taking casket pictures was done. (Death was so common a part of life then. A person could get a scratch on Sunday and die of infection before tetanus had time to kill them. Almost nobody got to adulthood without losing several family members, including children.)
          (STILL– UNHINGED TODAY UNLESS YOU WORK FOR THE MEDICAL EXAMINER OR LAW ENFORCEMENT.)
          We have my husband’s family photo album from the very early 1900s, and there are actually copies of photos taken as far back as the 1880s, It has family gatherings and studio glam photos, AND some of adults and children in caskets. Children were arranged like angels, and it was considered sad, but necessary. One set of pages is for people who had tragically died in the “Great Influenza” of 1918.

          We never had it out on the coffee table, but we found out when they were all grown that his kids showed my kids (and later our children together) the “Dead Book”. By the time they were about 10, they knew the names and some dates, and we never knew they knew about it, much less lugged it to kindergarten for show and tell!
          However.
          It isn’t normal now, and sending that text or email to an unsuspecting person is completely deranged, drunk or not!

          1. Clisby*

            A photo of a person in a casket is totally normal in some areas. We have such a photo of my father-in-law, taken (I think) by my brother-in-law. It is not on display.

      5. Observer*

        I am just absolutely boggled at the level of grace Sarah is getting.

        I think it’s possible to say that NEITHER of them deserve any grace here. Not about Pam not sendong condolences – that just ridiculous. But honestly, both of them are behaving dso badly that they should have been fired a long time ago.

        Which is why, as bad as they both are, this is really a *manager* problem.

        1. Siege*

          I did not for one second say that either of them deserved grace. I wanted my comment to be posted, and strongly moderated what I wanted to say.

      6. PurlsOfWisdom*

        Same. As someone who has a mother with a very sudden and quickly developing terminal diagnosis I do not have the words for what I would have reacted with if I had received such a text. And since I want to remain on this site I won’t even try.

        I don’t care if there is a long standing feud or not… This. Is. Not. Okay. Period. End of subject.

      8. zuzu*

        My mom died when I was practicing law, and I was in the middle of taking a whole bunch of depositions in a class action case against my client. I was junior counsel on the case, and senior counsel had previously requested a two-week extension on the briefing schedule back in September for our summary judgment motion for a previously-planned trip to Argentina in December. She and I were both doing the depositions, but I’d be writing the brief. Normally, such a request is unopposed due to professional courtesy, but opposing counsel hated us because they’d been fired from our organization and were actively suing for wrongful termination (and we were moving to disqualify them on another matter), so they extended no courtesies. Because they opposed, the judge denied.

        And then my mom had a heart attack in late October, one she didn’t recognize as a heart attack. I was back and forth from NYC to North Jersey to visit the hospital, but it was bad news. I managed to get the depositions done, but fell behind on my research and writing and realized I was not going to meet our original deadline for our brief. And then, just before Thanksgiving, my siblings and I discontinued life support for our mom and buried her just after the holiday.

        When I got back on Monday, my colleague and I discussed what to do, and I told her there was no way I’d make the deadline. So she got on the phone with our opposing counsel to do the meet and confer – she called the one who liked her more but didn’t like me – and I could see her getting enraged, then breaking into tears before hanging up. She said he told her that he didn’t miss any time when his aunt died, so I could pull it together and get the brief done and they didn’t consent to an extension. So she wrote a letter to the judge, not mincing words at all, who called us for a phone conference about as fast as I’d ever seen.

        The guy my colleague had spoken to did NOT get on the phone to explain himself to the judge; instead, his partner got on and tried to justify their position by claiming our need for a two-week extension was just my senior counsel exploiting my mother’s death for her own selfish purposes because she didn’t get the extension for her vacation granted. The judge’s voice was so tight and cold as she told him that she was granting us THREE weeks, and much warmer as she offered me condolences.

        That was also the end of any benefit of the doubt those two ever got from that judge.

        2. Berkeleyfarm*

          Well done to Her Honor.

          IANAL but lawyers tell me that judges tend to get very annoyed when OC don’t grant these sorts of reasonable and customary professional courtesies.

      9. Deanna Troi*

        Yes, I’m dumbfounded that the LW seems to think that both are equally toxic here. Just reading this letter has made me flash back to my dead father lying in his hospice bed (I was with him when he passed away and had to wait a while for the nurse to come). If I received this nasty text and picture, you better believe that I would immediately file a formal complaint. I can’t believe that LW called her to give her condolences after receiving it. As Alison has said many times, sometimes being in a toxic environment makes you blind to appalling behaviors.

        1. Nodramalama*

          Because this is clearly the latest in an escalating long standing mutual grudge between them

    5. Tau*

      I’m also not clear on whether Sarah ever apologised to Pam for this! She apologised to OP, yeah, but all the story has is picture of dead mom => Pam no longer speaks to Sarah => Sarah is super cavalier about having done so after the fact.

      1. Earlk*

        It’s also not clear if it’s been pointed out to Sarah that she missed Pam off the text. While her response was inappropriate, although really, when your Mum’s just died you don’t really care about being appropriate, does she know that Pam couldn’t have done any different?

        1. Thank someone I no longer work there*

          I used to do investigations related to employee complaints. I didn’t get a huge number of “No one sent me a card when” complaints but there were a few. One of the more…interesting ones…Someone scheduled a vacation to have a vasectomy. Told a few coworkers. Called in sick for a week due to an infection. Just for fun, and an inside joke of some sort, the coworkers sent him a jokey get well card. Complaint was “no one sent me a card when I had a vasectomy”. Yes, you guessed it…He didn’t tell anyone that was why he took the vacation so how would they know?

          1. Artemesia*

            I would not want co-workers given details that I was having a vasectomy or my tubes tied or my hemmerhoids fixed — sheesh.

        2. Seashell*

          If you’re a grown adult whose mother died, you should care about being appropriate enough to your co-workers not to do something that could get you fired. I would think scolding people for not sending condolences within 24 hours accompanied by a picture of the deceased is at that level.

        3. Richard Hershberger*

          My mother’s funeral is tomorrow. I can personally attest that I felt no inclination to behaving inappropriately.

          3. KayDeeAye*

            I’m so sorry for your loss.

            My mother died just a couple of months ago – in a hospice bed, BTW – and I, too, felt no inclination to behave inappropriately, nor did I shoot a photo of her body and send it to…well, anybody.

            I know Sarah isn’t the one who wrote in, but if she did, I’d definitely tell her she needs some therapy. And the OP is giving her a lot more grace than I would.

          14. TeaCoziesRUs*

            You are such a cherished member of this community, and I hate that grief is the price of love. May her memories be a blessing to you and yours. May you and yours find comfort and peace in places both expected and unexpected.

        4. londonedit*

          Absolutely – the way I read it, Sarah didn’t include Pam on the original text, for whatever reason, then got angry because she hadn’t received a response from Pam, and decided the best way to deal with that was to send Pam *a photo of her dead mother* and assume Pam had deliberately gone out of her way not to send condolences out of spite. And now all this is another escalation of that.

          If I was Pam, I’d be totally baffled for a start, and absolutely appalled at having been sent a photo of *a dead body*. What the actual hell. I understand that Sarah might be in an incredibly difficult situation emotionally, and she took it as a slight that Pam and the OP hadn’t responded to the text (Pam wasn’t even included!! OP I think could potentially have sent a brief ‘So sorry, I’ll give you a ring tomorrow’ but that’s by the by) but however raw your grief is you still do not send people photos of your dead relatives.

        5. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

          Yeah I’m not sure leaving Pam off was intentional or not.
          My FIL passed away a month ago. Long and dramatic story short, my husband and I had left the hospital that evening. The next morning his mom texted him things about needing to look at the burial site and go let her dogs out, but never answered if his dad did indeed pass.

          I finally had to text my MIL’s sister and ask point blank if he had passed. Apparently he did, about 15 mins after we left him the previous evening. Whatever chain they were texting information on about it and the funeral, we were not on it. We weren’t mad, it was a stressful time and dozens of people were texting on a ton of different threads.

          That being said the whole picture response was out of line.
          (Side note OP1, texting is fine, and the other person might prefer that. I understand you find it impersonal, however I would have been quite annoyed if a coworker called me.)

          1. Gray Lady*

            My MIL’s husband (who was like a father-in-law to me as my husband lost his father as a teenager) was sent home on hospice, expected to last only a couple of days. My MIL had entirely lost track of who she called when he passed, and only realized she needed to call my husband or me after my daughter called asking if she and her husband could visit Jack. She called me the morning of the quickly arranged private funeral. I understood it for the stress-related oversight it was, and can’t imagine creating an atmosphere of offense over such a thing.

          2. Clisby*

            Agree with your side note. When my parents died, the last thing I wanted to deal with was phone calls. From very close personal friends and family members, sure, but work colleagues? That would be a huge overstep. I can understand thinking text is too impersonal for condolences, but the answer to that is email, or sending a card. Not infringing on the personal time of someone who’s grieving.

        6. Siege*

          According to OP in another comment it was intentional and Sarah never includes Pam on any texts.

          I cannot, not for a millisecond, imagine how this office functions. It simply cannot be functional.

          1. jez chickena*

            Sure, it can.

            I’ve worked for a company where an entire division barely spoke to one another. Of course, this was a family-owned business that had plenty of

            1. Siege*

              There is about twenty miles of distance between “achieves corporate goals” and “is functional”.

        7. Observer*

          While her response was inappropriate, although really, when your Mum’s just died you don’t really care about being appropriate

          No. This was not merely “inappropriate”, it was full scale out of line. And really? People who have lost a parent are not able to manage basic behavior? Let’s get real here – she didn’t just snap at someone who said something outrageous about the situaiton to her. She had enough coherence and clarity of mind to figure out who did not sent confdolenes “fast enough” and them took some fairly deliberate action in response. That is NOT ok. Not even to the LW, who actually had gotten the original text.

          1. Reebee*

            Yes, it’s true: sometimes, people who have lost a parent can’t manage even basic behavioral norms.

            Sarah sounds like she has been a problem all along, but there’s a piling on her here that’s a bit much. Even minor-leauge jerks deserve some grace where their deceased loved ones are concerned.

            1. Observer*

              sometimes, people who have lost a parent can’t manage even basic behavioral norms.

              If that happens to a reasonable person, they apologize and recognize that they messed up.

              Even minor-leauge jerks deserve some grace where their deceased loved ones are concerned.

              This is not a “minor league jerk”. This is someone who did something pretty egrgioius, who clearly has a pattern of poor behavior, and who refuses to acknowledge that her behavior is a problem. So, not she does not deserve any “grace”.

        8. jasmine*

          Leaving Pam off the text can be excused by grieving. Unprofessional, but okay she’s got a lot going on. (Though OP confirmed Sarah leaves Pam off of all group messages anyways.)

          Sending that sort of text to people who haven’t sent condolences? Insane, but okay, I could let it slide if I got an apology. If Sarah was drunk and grieving, I’d expect her to come back to her senses at some point and realize what she’s done.

          But honestly it doesn’t seem like she’s mortified. She apologized to OP, after OP called her. I’m not sure she had any plans to apologize proactively. And she certainly has no plans to apologize to Pam.

        9. Carol the happy*

          Actually, my family still wear black, charcoal or navy for funerals, we have white stationery with black borders, and my 2 living Belgian aunts have a small black ribbon wreath to hang on the door, so people visiting can know they’re in mourning.

          My mother explained to us as children that if you lose someone, having death rituals can help, because you show respect to the deceased, and others can see where you are in the grieving process.

          For me, it wasn’t stifling, it was freeing. It gave me an opportunity to focus and reflect, and cry without having to use my emotional energy hiding my emotions and pretending. I also was able to take advantage of a sort of cocoon- excusing myself when I felt overwhelmed, and trusting that my husband or a friend beside me would make my explanations.
          We didn’t do this to excess, just needed it for a week or so, but it makes for a meaningful time to reflect and process.
          We also took the time to write thank-you notes for flowers and food.

          1. ArtsNerd*

            I love this perspective. Thanks so much for sharing. I really struggled with the “brave face” expectations my family and workplace set when I lost a loved one. I would handle things quite differently now.

        10. EC*

          I also think its completely bizarre behavior to do a group text to coworkers about the death of a parent. I might tell individuals that I was especially close with, but blasting the office with a group text is so weird to me.

    6. Fluffy Fish*

      Not saying Pam is innocent but based on the letter alone I wouldnt like Sarah either.

    7. TooTiredToThink*

      Oh my word. I aspire to be the level of unbothered that OP demonstrated! If I had been Pam, I would have been so hurt. Granted, I’ve lost my own mother. I’m waffling between whether or not I would have reported it to management because I know how bad grief is, but I’d know I could never trust Sarah again.

    8. Nonanon*

      So I’m HOPING the Sarah was separately disciplined because the issue should be “coworker drunkenly sent an image of their parent’s dead body,” NOT the escalation where it is. Like, yeah, if you sent me an image of a corpse, I MIGHT stop ordering your favorite coffee, BECAUSE YOU SENT ME AN IMAGE. OF A CORPSE.

    9. Miette*

      Yeah, this is super concerning behavior in any context, but when the two are known to be at odds? I’d be speaking with HR if I was Pam, for sure. Also wtf is up with Bob?

      1. Seriously?*

        Based on my read, Sarah has a habit of drunk texting her coworkers “Knowing Sarah, I know she was drunk and emotional when she sent the text” and huge lack of boundaries in what constitutes appropriate for a coworker relationship. I say this as someone who has coworkers who have turned into great personal friends. I don’t even think I would send a dead relatives photo to a family member! It seems so disrespectful, IMO, to the deceased member to share a photo after they have passed.

    10. 34avemovieguy*

      I had to reread that part. I was expecting the kind of photo you see at funerals and thought I misread. truly wild reaction (even for someone being sad-drunk)

      1. Cat*

        Prior to coming to the comments, my read was that it was a photo from shortly before she died rather than of the corpse, and I think that’s still technically consistent with the account? (Still not ok, but maybe 900 bees rather than 1000)

    11. StressedButOkay*

      I legit moved back from my screen when I read that. This isn’t “these two co-workers don’t like each other” – Pam is well within her rights to escalate this to management/HR as a formal complaint. Grieving or not, drunk or not, that is not a sane reaction at all.

      1. Observer*

        Pam is well within her rights to escalate this to management/HR as a formal complaint.

        I think it’s telling that she did not do that, and instead went to personal retaliation. Both about her (which tracks with at least one other follow up from the LW) but even more so about Bob and the management there. Because the LW, who seems to be a fairly reasonable adult *also* just brushed this off as “Sarah just doing her usual drunk dilaing”. (And doesn’t seem phased or surprised by Pam’s refusal to order the cofee that Sarah likes.)

        What is crazy to oservers seems like “just another Tuesday” in this office.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          This reminds me of the letter where the office had formed an unconscious, inadvertent cult around a “sensitive” coworker who burst into tears over everything, to the point where the entire place was consumed with worry that she’d notice a dead bird that had hit the conference room window and lose it, and how someone would have to sneak out to dispose of it, and on and on.

          It was insanity to anyone hearing the story, but they’d been boiling in that pot so long that they really saw it as “hide the dead bird” problem, not “an entire office of competent adults is catering to one person’s emotional instability” problem.

          Pam and Sarah have been at this so long, and Bob ignoring it so long, that everyone involved is focusing on their feud and not the outrageous behavior they both are flinging around.

          1. Observer*

            This reminds me of the letter where the office had formed an unconscious, inadvertent cult around a “sensitive” coworker who burst into tears over everything

            That letter also jumped into my mind. And it made me realize just how poor of a manager that LW had to be, to not only allow it to get to that point, but to then push back on the “cruel” and “intolerant” new manager who immediately decided that this needs to change.

            For anyone who is wondering:
            https://www.askamanager.org/2023/04/a-new-manager-says-its-a-problem-that-our-employee-cries-in-meetings-at-her-desk-and-during-team-lunches.html

            Key lines –
            ** Hired a manager, Tim, to work with me who is completely new, not a part of either previous company

            ** Vanessa is quirky. (NB, I don’t think a single commenter agreed with that assessment)

            ** Vanessa cries in meetings, at her desk, and during team lunches, and we adapted. (NB The “adaptation” comes down to pretty disruptive and dysfunctional behavior)

            ** Then Tim told me Vanessa’s conduct is “below baseline professional.” ~~snip~~ and Tim told me, “Can you see that you can’t talk to Vanessa like an adult?”

            ** I also think we should deal with personality conflicts when they come, if they come. I think there is a real benefit to accepting the misfits, the quirky, the sensitive among us. (ie Total refusing to see the problem, despite the fact that conflicts have laready arisen.)

          2. Roy*

            It wasn’t “consumed with worry”, it was motivated by kindness, not fear. And the “emotional instability” was normal human emotion that Tim overreacted to because he was used to a culture of emotional suppression.

    12. jasmine*

      I know there’s probably a lot of unprofessional and weird history between these two, probably on both sides, but my first thought was also “Sarah needs to apologize”

    13. Just me*

      yeah, who in the hell DOES that? That was wildly inappropriate in any situation for friends family or coworkers.

  3. Maliciously compliant*

    4) cheerful malicious compliance. Tell everyone the new structure is at the manager’s directive. Why pretend it isn’t?

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      I wouldn’t take this approach; risks people thinking that OP has been “demoted” from those tasks for a real reason.

      1. Venus*

        OP can point to the recent survey results as the reason. And all the employees will know anyway because they are familiar with the boss.

      2. Trout 'Waver*

        This is so common in corporate culture that only extremely naive people wouldn’t be able to see what’s going on.

    2. Yeah…*

      I’ve actually seen this happen in real life

      The people who witnessed it thought it was very professional to follow the managers instructions. The reputation of the employee following instructions was greatly enhanced. The only person who was damaged was the insecure boss.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I’ve been doing something similar with my terrible boss. (It helps that I am literally no longer involved – and happily so – in some of the things people ask me about.) One of the other managers point blank told me that he asks me first because I can usually take care of things with a minimum of fuss.

        In fact, I just found out that he dropped the ball on something and kind of look forward to my one-on-one to bring it up. (The nature of it means that he has to be the one to handle it.)

      2. not nice, don't care*

        Just collaborating with my partner now on how best to maliciously comply with her vile boss’s quest for unqualified adoration while maximizing negative impact for the boss. So satisfying to watch boss drop the ball while firmly holding the chain of responsibility.

  4. Ginger Cat Lady*

    OP1, you may find texting “impersonal” but it’s the means a grieving person used to reach out to you. That is not the time to take a stand on your communication preferences. She may not *want* to field a lot of phone calls from coworkers while dealing with making the arrangements, etc.
    Take your cue from people, and respond to them in the way they reached out to you. Especially when they are going through something difficult and emotional.
    Texting is not impersonal for most people, plus she’s a coworker not a personal friend or family member, and texting is very convenient for things like this situation. By not responding and thinking “I’ll call her later” you dropped the ball.
    You let your own preferences get in the way here, I’d recommend you not do that again unless you want to be more in the center of this feud.

    1. Kiv*

      Strong disagree. Sarah’s behaviour here is wildly unreasonable, though under the circumstances it’s somewhat understandable. In this situation, OP and Pam literally did nothing (within a short timeframe, when Pam didn’t even have the information to act on) and this was the result. Who’s to say whether the reaction to some other perceived slight if they did act would have been better?

      When people are behaving unreasonably, it’s not possible for others to prevent unreasonable behaviour by predicting exactly what the unreasonable person will deem correct. Frequently, there is no option that will appease an unreasonable person, and they’ll have a negative reaction regardless. It’s also unreasonable to expect reasonable people to act perfectly to forestall unreasonable actions from unreasonable people.

      1. Nachum*

        I think I fall in between you both. GCL has a valid point for what happened in the first few hours ~ it does make sense to me to encourage OP to match the medium of the griever, all things being equal. But failure to do so in now way justifies the Sarah’s behavior, absolutely.

      2. yvve*

        I agree that this does not in any way justify saras reaction, which was bizarre. But ginger is right, a lot of people do prefer to text and would find it stressful to receive a call unexpectedly while theyre trying to deal with their mothers death. Calling requires a lot more time, and a live interaction with a coworker during a really emotional time, and can be inconveniently timed. Just as an FYI

    2. Spartacus Bagel's Wife*

      I don’t think that OP’s behaviour is really relevant to the question and given Sarah’s wildly inappropriate response, I think it’s odd that it’s the only thing you’re focusing on.

    3. Meow*

      There is no way I would respond to death notification with the equivalent of a Post It note. The person whose mother died is an unreasonable @$$for sending a photo of her dying mom and a snarky drunk text. No worries about contact in the future because she would be blocked.

      1. Airy*

        So are you judging the form of the notification in this case as the equivalent of a Post-It note? I know you might think you’re being more polite by insisting on a phone call, but a good general rule is “respond to people in the same way they contacted you unless they ask for something else.” That’s completely separate from Sarah’s unreasonable reaction.

    4. AnnyFlavash*

      Sarah’s behavior was wildly out of line, and OP shouldn’t have had to deal with any of her nonsense.

      But yes, when someone is grieving, texting can be a really useful tool to help manage their grief. When I was grieving huge losses, I couldn’t handle other people’s emotions in addition to my own. I could barely handle my own. I communicated by text exclusively because phone calls were way too much. Texting let me take the time I needed to process my emotions enough to respond, which early on often took hours or days.

    5. Ms. Murchison*

      This is very unkind. LW1 did not drop the ball by waiting to respond. Sarah’s reaction was wildly, wildly inappropriate. Anyone that she texted could have been unable to respond quickly for a variety of reasons (personal medical issue, family emergency, being out of cell service) and Sarah’s expectation of a quick response was unrealistic.

      2. Zelda*

        “LW1 did not drop the ball by waiting to respond.”

        This is what gets me. It’s not clear from the letter what time of day Sarah’s initial notification went out, but the idea that the LW needed to respond the same day *or else* seems wild to me. LW could have been out sick, or needed to charge their phone, or wanted to take some time to think what to say. Depending on how closely they work together, no response might have been needed at all (on a team of thirty-some, most of whom I have very limited contact with, I don’t respond to every bit of personal news– people who barely know me don’t care what I think about their milestones), let alone within an hour or two of the news going out.

    6. Corey*

      Incredible take.

      OP1 make sure you take your cue and respond directly to this comment by Ginger Cat Lady that you absolutely did not asked for. Or else.

    7. TheBunny*

      I disagree. OP was just fine here. She didn’t reply and spoke with Sarah and they are fine.

      And, well, this also wasn’t even the point of the email OP sent and this feels like injecting an issue note present in the original letter.

    9. Awkwardness*

      Sarah could have used texting because it is easier to reach a lot of persons, but would not mine getting a call.
      We simply do not know if Sarah has a preference, only that she reacted badly afterwards.

    10. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      This is what sympathy notes or cards are for. I might expect a text from my nearest relatives and friends, but co-workers? if I were the bereaved person, I wouldn’t have sent a text to random colleagues in the first place, just my manager to let them know I’d be out of the office, and maybe to ask them to let people know. We always got emails from the executive offices when someone’s close relative died, with contact info to send a card or note.

  5. yvve*

    Out of curiosity — what *would* you reccomend someone do in situation #3, if they own their own business or are the manager? Similar levels of “this is customer service, not therapy” have come up in my work before, and im sure im not the only one with that experience

    1. LadyAmalthea*

      When I worked in an orthopedic shoe store, this situation got so common that we almost expected to be an emotional dumping ground for our customers. There are a lot of lonely people out there who are desperate for someone friendly seeming to talk to, and lines get even more crossed when medical situations get discussed.

    2. Sheworkshardforthemoney*

      Personally, I would offer sympathy on a basic level and then politely disengage. A co-worker learned that we both have a family member with addiction issues. As a result she sees me as a sister in arms and is using me as a daily trauma dump. Sometimes it’s necessary for your own mental health to simply walk away if you can.

    3. WS*

      You firmly but kindly keep them moving, and let other staff know to come free you when you’ve been with one of those customers for a while, usually with a fake “there’s a phone call for yvve” or similar. I work in healthcare and this is a really common issue, particularly for one of my coworkers who apparently has resting sympathetic face. A bit of “how are you, how are things going” is normal and often necessary, but there’s a limit!

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        We used the “coworker comes up and tells you that you’re needed” thing to untangle people from over-sharers/hitter-on-ers and the like when I worked at a big bookstore. It got so you could make the “need help?” eye contact in a split second.

      2. DE*

        I think depending on your role in healthcare it would be unethical for you to just pass them off like this. If you’re their physician you probably just have to actually listen to them.

    4. Lab Boss*

      My current job is not customer facing but as a summer camp counselor we had to deal with this sort of thing too. Obviously part of the job was helping children manage emotions, but then you’d get parents who would meet us and start telling teenage counselors “my child has a degenerative disease and these are my emotions about knowing this is their last summer” or “I’m worried that getting frustrated with my special needs child makes me a bad person” or “I was concerned about my child going to the shooting range at camp because of a family gun related tragedy which I shall now detail to you.”

      I don’t have an answer for what to do. In the moment I always just did my best to be empathetic, and because of the nature of the job they were never around long enough for it to be a recurring problem. But man, it’s sad that some people are so starved for a sympathetic ear that they will open up to any near-stranger who seems friendly.

    5. AmuseBouchee*

      “I’m so sorry you are dealing with this, but I’m afraid I can’t talk to you about this.”

    6. Liz*

      “Is there something library related I can help you with” is a go to. We get it a lot . Of course that’s after we have already given them a ton of resources.

      1. OP Letter 3*

        I’ve told her “I really can’t help you” and she’s replied “it helps that you listen” which is sweet I guess but I need to find a way to tell her I REALLY can’t help you, stop telling me about it. I feel like if I admit my own triggers that’s just blurring the customer/professional line further. it’s difficult because my job involves me being on the sales floor, either as the person operating the registers or the one on the floor helping people find books (and shelving, cleaning and reorganizing) when I’m up at cash I’m totally trapped. When I’m on the floor she follows me around as I move from section to section in order to keep talking to me. The trouble is she does come in looking for specific books, so she is still a customer but then she goes off on these long tangents about how poorly her son is doing. When there are other customers around I can tell her “I have to help other customers now” but if there aren’t, she’ll just keep talking. I think I do need to involve my manager, I’ve tried every polite blowoff method I can.

        1. Butterfly Counter*

          I do think involving your manager is a good idea.

          Also, if you feel comfortable, say something like, “I am finding your updates very upsetting and it’s affecting me outside of work. I wish you and your son the best, but I really cannot be your sounding board any more.”

          1. Jenesis*

            I wonder if it would help to emphasize to the manager that the customer is behaving inappropriately (e.g. following OP3 around the store, loitering at the cash register without buying anything). The triggers are relevant to why it’s upsetting OP3 so much, but they’re not relevant to why the customer’s behavior needs to stop.

            Worst case scenario, the manager might need to tell her that if she can’t stop harassing the staff, she’s not welcome back. They have the power to enforce that.

        2. Elitist Semicolon*

          I’ve literally said, “I’m sorry, but I cannot be the person you talk to about this” in situations like this and no one’s ever gotten mad or upset about it (at least, not that they’ve directed at me). It doesn’t have to be rudely delivered; I usually say it softly while placing one of my hands over my heart or something. Maybe that sounds performative, but something about the gesture seems to convey “because it’s too personal/because I have my own history with this issue” without actually saying so out loud.

        3. AmuseBouchee*

          You need to be more clear that it is negatively affecting you and that you cannot listen. Talk to your boss, as well, just for back up.

    7. September is Suicide Prevention Month*

      I would recommend: encouraging them to look into therapy and researching what free support resources their country provides (dial 988 for the National Suicide Hotline in the US), mentioning that mental wellbeing is just as important as physical wellbeing, and emphasizing that [store] is not set up to provide the medical/health support services they are looking for. “Get therapy” can sound dismissive, but acknowledging both that their problem is serious and you are not capable of providing what they need might mitigate that.

      Additionally, taking control of what they are asking for puts you back in control of the conversation. (Them: I’m just talking [friendly]. You: This conversation is seeking a service [professional].) Also, I think most people expect Healthcare beaurocracy to feel clinical, so adopting that tone and language could help them create some emotional distance.

      Referencing the orthopedics shoe store example in this thread, a podiatrist’s office would handle foot-related mental health requests in the same way, transferring them to the appropriate department and only booking appointments for the health services their own office is capable of providing. Listening to these kinds of serious problems is very nice and polite behavior, but kindness is pointing folks in the direction of actual help from people qualified to give it. (Plus, there’s a business to run!)

      1. Elitist Semicolon*

        What you’re suggesting works if the business itself is related to healthcare, but not if it’s a bookstore (as in the original) or something else.* I can’t imagine most other businesses would consider it appropriate for their employees to start recommending therapy to customers. And “have you considered therapy?” or “here are some resources” only invite further discussion (“oh, I went to therapy but…”) or establish the worker as A Helpful and Therefore Appropriate Person for that discussion. “Friendly” ≠ “friends,” especially when one of the parties is at work.

        *that isn’t a public service, because public libraries (for example) often have to point users towards social/health resources.

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          Yeah, agreed. This is good advice in a different context, but it’s completely inappropriate in a bookstore. What is really needed here is a friendly, polite version of “Sir, this is a Wendy’s”.

        2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I disagree. You don’t have to be in healthcare to have some sort of resources. And being that the OP works at a bookstore there’s going to be people who are looking for recommendations for when things happen that are tragic. I don’t think that the OP should suggest therapy. But I would see if they could get a list of resources to give to people. Maybe in the self help section they could put a poster up with local resources.

          Another thing I want to point out is that just because the son has said he wished he was dead does not mean that he is suicidal. Sometimes when things are overwhelming and a traumatic event has happened people say things like this. I think that he needs to talk to a therapist, not because of SI but because of the traumatic event that has happened to him and to help him navigate his life.

          1. Elitist Semicolon*

            Fair, though my point wasn’t that other places shouldn’t have information about resources available; where I am, it’s common for bookstores, coffeeshops, and other private businesses to have flyers in the foyer or on a bulletin board near the restrooms for things like support groups or hotlines or social services. But if the customer’s question is “where can I find books about grief?”, it’s not appropriate for an employee to say, “Aisle 3 on the left hand side, and have you considered therapy?” regardless of what kind of personal story the customer has offered.

        3. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Yeah, unfortunately, recommending therapy outside of a healthcare situation would be rather dismissive of the patron. I had an issue at my last job where I was the person answering the main phone line for our nonprofit that funded research for a specific rare disease, because I was the person who processed donations. Most of the people calling in were either patients or relatives of patients, and many of them would tell me about their situations and I would express sympathy, but there was one woman who called me at least twice (after already speaking to many other employees) who would tell me how alone she felt and how the support groups we had were great and would get into a lot of issues that were way beyond my expertise to know how to respond to. I felt very sorry for her and knew that what she really needed was someone to talk to who did have the expertise to help her (support groups are great but they have their limits), but of course I could not even begin to say, “Have you thought about therapy?” I feel like that would be considered very rude. So I just gave sympathetic responses as best I could while trying to figure out the answer to her questions (which were complicated donation questions about a situation that hadn’t ever arisen before). We were in a healthcare-adjacent field but even so, I didn’t feel like it was my place to recommend therapy, unfortunately. I hope that woman got the help she needed.

          Although in this case, I suppose recommending the suicide hotline would not be considered rude, since I feel like that is more akin to saying “call your doctor” rather than “seek professional help.” I can’t say why those two things sound really different when they really are the same thing, but somehow they do.

        4. not nice, don't care*

          Public library administrators should burn in hell for forcing library employees to act as shelter workers and therapists. My spouse and her colleagues have been non-consensually pushed into dealing with violent mentally ill people who have assaulted them physically and verbally, plus drug use and overdoses and people shitting and peeing indoors and out.
          They get paid and treated like garbage for doing front line intervention and triage work.

          1. Elitist Semicolon*

            Oh, I absolutely agree with you! My point was that library staff often have to hand out pamphlets about or give phone numbers/locations for social services; I’m not saying that managing folks in need of those services *should* be part of the job! But because libraries are public and therefore draw folks with all kinds of questions/needs, for better or worse, they’re a setting in which it would be appropriate for an employee to say, “here is information about mental health resources.” (And having worked in a public library myself…yeah. I was lucky that I didn’t have to deal with anyone violent, but we definitely had to interact with folks who needed more comprehensive help than the reference desk could offer them.)

    8. Another Use of the Identify Spell*

      Tell her she’s doing great, clearly doing the best she knows how, but emphasize that she doesn’t have to do it all herself.

      For health related things, physical and mental, she should press the care providers for more information and especially for care for her son’s mental state. He may not have expressed his condition this bluntly to any professionals. The (doubtless expensive, if you are in the US) care providers are there to provide these things, not just diagnoses and medication. If they aren’t at least pointing her in a good direction, she is more than justified in pressing them for that help. They may also be able to suggest mental health and other support for co-survivors. If not, the hospital chaplain can offer help directly (regardless of her family’s beliefs or non-belief) and likely also give info on other supports.

      Remind her again that he’s lucky to have someone who will work so hard to see that he gets what he needs. She may not feel like she’s doing enough because moms do that sometimes. She also may be coping by trying to figure out how to find out as much as she can. A push toward existing resources for *everyone* going through this, many in the place she spends a lot of time rn (hospital), is the best thing to do for her and for your staff.

      1. Artemesia*

        A library is also a good place to have handouts about emotional support and other resources. The OP could accompany ‘I really can’t talk about this with you as I have faced difficult family issues like this, but it would really help for you to have someone to talk to about it. If you don’t already have a counselor or therapist, here is a list of places to start to identify one for yourself and your son.’

      2. Petty Betty*

        And to remind her that if he’s a minor especially, she is absolutely well-suited to tell his care providers about his verbalized desires to not exist. As his mother and (at the present time) primary caregiver, she is intimately aware of his current mental health struggles and that he needs a more focused plan to help him right now. And even if he weren’t a minor, if she is attending appointments with him, she could mention it to the doctor anyway while she’s there in the office with him.
        I advocate empowering people to take steps towards helping themselves.

      3. Elitist Semicolon*

        Maybe I’m just an awful person? Because all the responses along these lines make me wonder why someone would want to get involved in the personal life of a customer at this level. And, frankly, given one of OP’s responses above (that the customer’s stories are becoming unsustainable because they’re both interrupting their work and causing stress), it seems the customer would interpret “I’m sure you’re doing the best you can” as “please tell me more; I am willing to reassure you.”

        There’s a difference between what I’m willing/equipped to listen to or share when I’m at work and what I’m willing/equipped to listen to or share when I’m with friends or family, and a lot of the discussion of this letter seems to be blurring what for me is a fairly strong boundary.

        1. AmuseBouchee*

          No, you’re not a terrible person. She is already triggered, all these comments are inappropriate. A stockist at a bookshop doesn’t have to offer emotional support to a mother who comes into the store. This is beyond crazy.

        2. Wino Who Says Ni*

          Yeah, I also find a lot of these suggestions to be demanding a whole lot of mental load from a service worker. Unfortunately this dynamic is extremely common as providing “good customer service” often makes workers unwitting hostages to these lonely trauma-dumps.

      4. Dahlia*

        That is not a conversation I would have been comfortable having with a customer when I was working retail.

    9. goddessoftransitory*

      I’ve gotten a couple of these over the years: people call to order food, then suddenly tell me it’s for a funeral or because a loved one is in the hospital. I say how sorry I am, and let’s make sure they don’t have to worry about cooking tonight, or something similar. Mostly people are worried and just need a sympathetic ear.

      But if somebody kept calling and turning us into de facto therapy? That’s not something I could deal with beyond expressing sympathy. I would escalate it to my manager at that point.

    10. Mek*

      I would reply with something like, “I’m so sorry, that sounds incredibly hard. Have you had a chance to find a support group or therapist to talk about this with? They might have better advice than I do since I haven’t been in your shoes before. A friend of mine has had pretty good luck finding support groups online on Facebook/Reddit which can be really helpful too.”

  6. Ms. Murchison*

    In re: letter #1 — I don’t blame Pam for wanting to avoid Sarah. Heck, if I heard about those texts second-hand in the office, I’d start trying to limit contact with Sarah because she’s clearly unhinged. It sounds like LW#1 might have been in a bad workplace so long it’s warped their view of normality, which we hear about so often in these letters. Here’s hoping Bob finally takes action.

    1. Vincaminor*

      I agree! From Pam’s point of view, this came out of nowhere – I would have Sarah on extremely high “Do not engage” after that, because anything I say or *don’t* say could set her off!

    2. Heart&Vine*

      EVERYTHING in OP’s letter describes Sarah as the unstable one, not Pam. Sarah texted her colleagues to let them know her mother passed away (completely understandable) but left off the one person she didn’t like (a little petty, but whatever). THEN after realizing that OP and Pam were the only ones to not respond (because she didn’t let Pam know and OP was planning on responding later – all of which makes sense), proceeded to TAKE A PICTURE OF HER DEAD MOTHER AND SEND IT TO THEM (100% bananapants, drunk or not).

      To me, this would be grounds for a very serious conversation with Sarah. That initial phone call shouldn’t have been so cavalier. “Sarah, I know you’re grieving and we can all do unsavory things when we’re grieving, but sending that picture was completely inappropriate. I’ve told you why Pam and I didn’t respond but, even if we both got that text and actively chose not to respond, it still wouldn’t excuse what you did. I expect you to formally apologize to Pam and to never do something like this again.”

      OP can always ask Pam about the missing coffee order but something tells me it was more of an oversight than a direct attack on Sarah. I hope Bob isn’t so steeped in this bizarrely toxic environment and puts Sarah in her place (while asking OP why they’re being so casual about Sarah’s behavior).

      1. Parakeet*

        The LW provided more details in a comment (as Andrew T Burke) and it’s pretty clear that neither Sarah nor Pam are the “good guy” here.

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          Pam was out of line for going off about the birthday decorations. Sarah is so far past that level of misbehavior, she’s not even in the same ballpark.

        2. Adele*

          I disagree. If someone took my *personal property* to celebrate my nemesis who behaves like Sarah does in this letter, I’d be pissed too. Their behavior is an order of magnitude different as described.

          1. Seashell*

            It sounds less like it was her personal property and more that Pam paid for them for communal use for everyone in the office, but doesn’t want them used for Sarah. It’s not like LW gave away Pam’s lunch in the office fridge.

  7. TheBunny*

    LW#1

    I’m still laughing and I’m amazed you managed to hide your reaction. That sentence was epic.

    I’m sorry you are dealing with this, but it really is Bob’s problem to solve. Feuds are bad enough, but when they cross into punitive like this, managers need to step in and hopefully he does.

    1. Frodo*

      “I sent a picture of my dead mother and now we only have Folgers” is my new favorite phrase.

    2. Jasmi*

      Yes, LW1, that sentence has given me a laugh too and let’s just say I might have to go back and re-read it as an in need of a bit of a chuckle today!

    3. HonorBox*

      Bob’s problem to solve for sure. I’d suggest that in addition to what you’ve told him, it is worth laying out details a little more for him. First, Pam was left off the initial text from Sarah. Second, you both received a photo of the dead relative with a sarcastic/snarky comment thanking you for condolences. Both of those are Sarah issues, and while we need to give people some grace when grieving, we don’t need to allow them to be jerks.

      Then let Bob figure it out while also keeping Sarah at arm’s length.

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        “Pam was left off the initial text from Sarah.”

        Do we know that it was the first text, though?

        If she felt close enough to Pam, she may have texted that coworker first, and only afterwards thought of sending a text to her manager and whoever else on the team she left out.

        LW1, someone on bereavement leave may be texting because they cannot emotionally handle speaking with people. Think of taking their lead on which medium to respond through as being considerate of their feelings.

        2. Sneaky Squirrel*

          I think we’re straying from the issue a bit here. Sarah is not owed an “I’m sorry for your loss” in any medium. It’s a nicety, absolutely, but Sarah doesn’t get to make drama just because she doesn’t like that her coworkers didn’t respond the way she expected.

          1. The Unionizer Bunny*

            I’m in full agreement there. I had a whole paragraph about respectful managers not immediately gossiping with Sarah’s team about a text Pam was perhaps-deliberately excluded from, even if it’s not legally required (I’m assuming no relevant state privacy law applies), but then I reread the OP and realized Sarah had texted several other members of her team, so I deleted it. Under the circumstances, “as a general rule I don’t pass on word of personal tragedies unless the employee requests it” could be met with an angry “but I made it clear that I did want my coworkers to know it”.

        3. Velawciraptor*

          Per OP’s comments here, there’s no reason to believe they’re close enough to get a private message and every reason to believe she was just left off the text, as she’s been left off of other texts in the past.

      2. Oregonbird*

        The thing is, it wasn’t a picture of a relative the women received. They were sent a picture of a dead body. In any culture, being confronted with a dead body is an aggressive threat, usually promising retaliation.

        Whether it’s a horse’s head, a severed finger or a body in a casket, a picture of death sent maliciously is a visceral threat.

        1. Snoodence Pruter*

          It’s a bit of a stretch to read this as a literal threat in this specific context. Yes, your examples are relevant in that they illustrate just how far outside the social norm it is be to share a picture of a dead body. But Sarah clearly isn’t sending it as a “You didn’t send condolences so you’re next!” message. She’s going for visceral shock – “look what I’m going through and you couldn’t even bother to text”. It’s an appalling lapse of judgement. But it’s not a threat.

    4. Not a lawyer butt*

      Someone needs to send this to the writers of Like a Dragon/Yakuza because this is exactly the sort of utterly bananapants situation they would use in a side mission.

    5. Maggie*

      OldJob’s petty admin would refuse to order diet coke when she was mad at someone. The whole office suffered!

    6. Decima Dewey*

      Is Sarah the only Green Mountain coffee drinker? If there is a Green Mountain coffee or else faction in the office, I don’t think Pam would stop ordering Green Mountain coffee and risk blow back from the rest of the faction.

      When I Googled Green Mountain coffee to see how the price compares with Folgers “Green Mountain coffee Keurig” was one of Google’s suggestions. If I were Pam, I’d think “problem solved. Onto next task.”

    7. Petty Betty*

      I am using the story for a work-study exercise in the office next week. I can’t wait to see everyone’s faces when they read this one.

    8. Reebee*

      Stunning that this generates an ounce of laughter.

      The big picture is that someone’s mother died. Yes, sending a photo as described is shocking, to say the least, but again: someone lost her
      mother. People do things when they’re grieving, a lot of which isn’t understandable.

      Making someone in Sarah’s shoes a punchline is beyond mean-spirited. Yeah, she’s got unrelated workplace problems, but give her a break.

      1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

        Under normal circumstances, sure, but Sarah took and sent a photo of the body for spite. She’s the one who glibly used her own situation as a weapon against her office nemesis, then AGAIN when she told Bob about it (“first my mom dies and now Folgers?”). That’s what makes the situation ridiculous. Can other people really be expected to be more sensitive about Sarah’s loss than Sarah herself? Grieving is hard, losing parents is hard, I know from personal experience, but you don’t get carte blanche to do literally whatever you feel like with no repercussions.

  8. Banana Pyjamas*

    LW1 I think you need to make sure Bob knows you also received the image. He needs to know this didn’t happen in isolation. You should also flag that Sara came to you for supplies even though that’s outside your duties. Now if he tells you to order for her, that gives you all the information you need about him. Other then that there’s nothing you need to or should do in this situation.

  9. VNST*

    LW3- I would adjust Alison’s second line to be just ““I’m so sorry he’s dealing with this, but I’m afraid I can’t talk to you about this”. I would not give this customer any additional information about you or your experiences. This may be presumptive of me, but if she’s already pushing boundaries, giving her any insight into you makes me think that it may just lead to her pushing on them further.

    1. Brain the Brian*

      I have to disagree. That language feels impersonal and dismissive, and the customer may go to management and complain that the LW is being rude — which would just open up another whole can of worms, likely less pleasant still than just hearing about this patron’s kid’s injuries and recovery. You need to give a *little* context before you shut down a conversation with a customer like this.

      1. Edwina*

        But it IS an impersonal situation. LW isn’t the customer’s friend, this whole situation isn’t any kind of social engagement, it is entirely a business transaction. LW doesn’t owe the customer any kind of information about him/herself. I think VNST’s suggestion is perfectly polite and firm, and appropriate to the situation.

        1. Brain the Brian*

          To be clear, I’m trying to minimize the amount that the LW has to talk or think about whatever in their own family history makes them want to disengage from the topic of this customer’s son at work. I’m worried that this slight modification to AAM’s original script will lead to a customer complaint that makes the LW have to rehash the whole thing to management and justify to their supervisor why they don’t want to discuss this topic — which, perversely, would have the effect of having to talk even more about something that makes the LW uncomfortable. The original had just enough more warmth and context in it to avoid that, I think, and I’m not advocating for the LW to share any more than that. Maybe I’m overthinking it, but customers too often look for any excuse to complain…

        2. Awkwardness*

          I would argue that in a bookstore, depending on the size, it is not only a business transaction.
          It often is personal, either when receiving recommendations or even explaining why you are looking for a certain type of book for a certain type of person. A certain warmth in your interaction might be beneficial too how you are received by your customers even if your are within your right to shut the conversation down immediately. I like the script by AAM and thought it fitted well.

          1. DJ Abbott*

            I agree that LW3 needs to try to keep interaction warm, and supportive.
            I work in a financial office as the front desk person. When people call in, it’s not unusual for them to start telling me their story before I’ve even gotten their name. It can be about financial hardship, or the death of a loved one. People going through something need to talk about it, and I suspect your customer doesn’t have anyone else to talk to.
            All of us have learned to be supportive and sympathetic while dealing with our clients. We need to be supportive towards them while at the same time doing the business they called for. I do that by engaging with their story, expressing sympathy either with words or sounds, and making sure the business gets done.
            However, so far I haven’t found this triggering.
            LW3, I suggest being as warm and supportive as is appropriate, and once that’s established say something like, “I’m sorry I can’t spend too long, I need to get back to work”. You may have to do that more than once. Or, your manager might suggest something you can say to disengage politely. I have occasionally told a white lie, saying the phone is ringing or something has come up, when that’s not actually the case.

          2. Nonanon*

            Depending on the size of the bookstore, I wonder if keeping flyers for local grief support groups would be helpful (probably going to be easier in smaller bookstores vs. corporate owned ones, but ymmv based on management). Part of the customer’s issue may be not having an adequate support network (she’s parenting a child with a life changing injury! That’s hard!), and plugging in with other people instead of just LW3 winds up benefiting them both; customer gets a place to release, LW gets to keep the boundaries they need.

        3. Learn ALL the things?*

          The people who trauma dump on customer service workers don’t see these conversations as a business transaction. customer service workers are trained and paid to be nice to people, and boundary jumpers see that niceness as “this person likes me, we are friends.” There’s basically a mini version of a parasocial relationship that can happen with a regular customer and an employee who has always treated them well, and if the worker suddenly makes an abrupt turn into impersonal business transactions, that can get messy.

        4. DE*

          Do you think either OP’s boss or the customer will see it that way? Because it’s not the commenters here she needs to convince.

      2. Lab Boss*

        I do see VNST’s point about not opening up further to someone who’s already over-connecting, but maybe a more neutral statement like “it’s a very tough topic for me” prevents the customer from feeling coldly dismissed without OP giving out excess personal info.

        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          I agree. I would not give a customer who was already crossing boundaries any personal information. Maybe something less direct, but still clear I am not the person to be talking to.

        2. jasmine*

          Both this and Alison’s scripts are good. IMO what the customer is sharing isn’t an abnormal amount of sharing for a lot people (outside the Internet sphere). It’s not a reason that the customer has a problem with stated boundaries. If Alison’s script did prompt some sort of push, then OP could simply say “I’d rather not talk about this. Is there something in the bookstore I can help you with?”

          “I’m afraid I can’t talk to you about this” just sounds… odd

          1. MigraineMonth*

            The “can’t” language actually really resonates with me. I think when I’m setting a definitive boundary, I express it as “I can’t talk about this” rather than “I don’t want to talk about this.” The latter feels more open to pushback.

            I know some people set boundaries as “I won’t talk about this”, but that feels ruder. Your mileage may vary.

          2. EC*

            Its not an abnormal amount of sharing for a friend, or therapist. Its extreme oversharing for a stranger in a service job who can’t leave the interaction.

        3. VNST*

          Definitely meant something more like this! Mostly, I wanted to remove the line “because of a situation in my own family” and was attempting to write a line that was more neutral (which clearly didn’t really hit that mark, oops).

          1. Brain the Brian*

            That’s a fair thing to want to remove! I think jasmine hits the mark here. Of course, we’re all here arguing over scripts, but no real-world conversation ever goes according to script. YMMV, LW…

      3. Dido*

        It should be impersonal and dismissive. It is wildly inappropriate for customers to dump their trauma on trapped retail employees and they need to learn that. They do this because they know that US culture demands for retail and customer service workers to be polite and attentive at all costs – they’re not going up to random people in the park and pulling this shit. No wonder they have no real friends to talk about this with.

        1. jasmine*

          This is incredibly unkind

          The most likely explanation for the customer’s behavior is that they made an error in judgement, not that they’re secretly trying to take advantage of OP being a retail worker. It’s unlikely that the customer realizes it’s making OP uncomfortable given their first interaction.

          IMO so much of the resentment for “trauma dumping” and the over-prescriptiveness of how humans should interact that exists online, comes from people being afraid to set boundaries.

      4. Oregonbird*

        Then when this customer next comes in, the *manager* needs to engage first, with: “I’m sorry to hear you’ve had family difficulties lately; I’m glad Bookstore has been able to offer you information and supportive texts. Please let us know any time you need a special order – I know we keep an eye open for materials that meet our customers’ needs. Sadly, Bookstore can only do do much. Our employees are lovely, very sympathetic and helpful, and I always want to send them home feeling good about their work environment. As we do have many customers dealing with heavy events in their lives through gaining knowledge, it’s important the employees aren’t distracted and distressed; I’m sure you understand that. It’s far easier to offer the support of a useful or uplifting book if they aren’t overcome with sadness; while my employees all have a natural empathy for our customers’ troubles, they need to balance that with their duties. So when a clerk cannot stay and listen to a full update, please understand I’ve asked them to focus on fulfilling their work assignments.”

        1. DE*

          If I got a long winded message like this from a retail manager I’d feel so embarrassed that I’d never shop there again. I think OP should only do something like this if they want to lose the customer.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Wow! That just sounds so rude and dismissive. I would never say this to a customer. If I were the customer, I would feel like I’ve just been slapped in the face.

      I would simply give the manager a heads-up, and then when this customer comes in make myself very busy in the stock room. The customer will eventually move on to someone else she can unload on.

      1. Elitist Semicolon*

        Yeah, probably another employee, which only shifts that burden onto someone else and perpetuates the problem. (That co-worker isn’t going to be any happier about it.)

        Why would you feel “slapped in the face” to have someone politely tell you they weren’t able to discuss the non-work topic you brought up? We’re not talking about someone yelling “I can’t talk about this!” or being snippy, but rather about someone saying, “I’m sorry to hear that, but this isn’t a topic I can discuss at work.”

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          It would feel like a slap in the face because up until now the LW has been, apparently engaging in this. To abruptly cut someone off is, well….rude and dismissive.

          Yeah, probably another employee, which only shifts that burden onto someone else and perpetuates the problem.

          I doubt that it would be another employee; this is happening because LW is the one who helped this customer in the first place and thus does not feel like a total stranger. When I said “someone else” I meant “someone else in some other place” which would hopefully be a therapist or doctor or family member.

          1. Elitist Semicolon*

            I genuinely don’t understand this perspective. Is OP supposed to listen to this customer forever at the expense of their own mental health? If this were a non-work acquaintance who constantly wanted to have triggering conversations with OP at happy hour – like, if this were a Captain Awkward letter about a friend and not an AAM letter about a customer – would you still consider it a slap in the face for OP to say, “I’m sorry this is happening to you, but I can’t talk about it anymore?”

            1. Peanut Hamper*

              Ah, yes, but “I’m so sorry he’s dealing with this, but I’m afraid I can’t talk to you about this” is very different from “I’m sorry this is happening to you, but I can’t talk about it anymore?” (Emphasis mine.)

    3. TheseOldWings*

      But there is no indication that the customer is pushing boundaries as it doesn’t sound like the LW has said anything to her yet. If I knew a regular customer had an ongoing situation like this with their child, I would personally ask them how things are going when I saw them. The customer likely doesn’t know this is triggering or any of the LW’s personal situation, and likely thinks that they may want an update since they helped them with the initial books. All she really needs to do is say she hopes he is doing better and be too busy to engage further, or yes she can explain that the situation is upsetting due to some personal things but she hopes he is doing better.

      2. EC*

        Using people in service jobs as your captive therapist is already pushing boundaries. The LW’s job is to help people locate books and ring up their purchases. LW is not this woman’s friend, LW is not this woman’s psychologist. The woman knows this and is abusing the fact that LW can’t leave the interaction because the woman could get LW fired for being “rude”.

        If a cashier, or server, or anyone else who is doing a minimum wage service job asks “How are you today?” the one and only correct response to give is “fine”. They are being forced to ask that question be management. Do not dump your problems on people who are just trying to do their job.

  10. I Fought the Law*

    I’m not sure that the manager needs to say anything at all to Pam regarding this “feud.” If I were Pam, I would be limiting all contact with Sarah and would have immediately gone to the manager to report that text and photo. Even giving her the benefit of every doubt considering that her mother had just died, Sarah is not a safe person, and Pam has every right to ignore her.

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Pam’s part in it is minor compared to Sarah, but Pam is still in the wrong for letting office purchasing decisions be dictated by interpersonal conflict. This problem shows up more often when the nice stationery instead of standard ones gets purchased as a favour, but this is the other side of the same thing.

      1. Ganymede*

        I mean, we don’t know for sure that the coffee thing is a retaliation. It could just be “we’re out of that coffee” and Sarah is reading way too much into everything that happens to her, from a lapse in texting to her favourite coffee not being available.

        1. Audrey Puffins*

          I’m not sure what the coffee timeline is like, but from the information available, it sure does seem like Sarah has a tendency to leap to conclusions

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            ^This.

            It is a workplace problem that Sarah has decided she cannot speak to Pam about one of Pam’s job functions. Separate from the problem that Sarah keeps a photo of dead relative on her phone to deploy in angry texting situations.

      2. Ladybird*

        If that’s even what’s happened though….. No-one actually knows if Pam has stopped ordering the coffee as a result of the feud or whether the coffee just happens to have run out

        1. HonorBox*

          Correct. It could have been a situation in which the coffee was out and Green Mountain was not available so Pam subbed in Folgers just to ensure there was coffee in the meantime.

          That said, if I’m Pam, I would have a really difficult time stopping myself from messing with Sarah a little bit, given the angry text and photo of a dead person.

        2. Ms. Feronia on 5th*

          Perhaps the coffee is out of stock where Pam orders from. Perhaps there is a shipping delay?

      3. bamcheeks*

        I mean, IF that’s what is happening. LW doesn’t say that Sarah is correct about Pam deliberately not ordering the coffee— this could be wild speculation in Sarah’s head.

        1. NorthernTeacher*

          I wonder if it is speculation based on ongoing conflict between Sarah and Pam or Sarah and and many coworkers (e.g. drunk texts being unsurprising).
          1. Was Pam not being included in text intentional or unintentional? Or would Pam have reasonably assumed intent because of Sarah’s past actions? OP’s wording wasn’t clear either way, but if it was intentional or perceived as such that is a good indicator that this is an ongoing conflict.
          2. How many people did Pam initially text or tell? If there are very few people or very few people responded, then it would be more noticeable, but when emails with updates like this go out at my school (staff of over 20 people), you would have to put in the effort to confirm who did and didn’t reply. Which hypervigilence of who did and did not reply from Sarah would make sense as she looks for proof that her coworkers or Pam are horrible people and/or she is a victim.
          If this was a situation that felt like a brief flash from the Twilight Zone then telling the manager would be a “something weird you should be aware of.” But if it is one of many incidents then it has become a big manager problem, and toxic speculating leading to drama and inapproriate behaviour (aka.the photo) may already be the norm. E.g. OP speculated that it was drunk, emotional text. That speculation didn’t come from left field but from past experience. Expecting that behaviour from a coworker is not normal elsewhere.

      4. New Jack Karyn*

        If I’d gotten that text from a coworker, I would go scorched-earth. The difference in the offenses here is several orders of magnitude.

    2. Petty Betty*

      I mean, for all we know, Sarah could have been the only Green Mountain drinker in the office and Pam assumed that Sarah would be out for the week due to her mother’s passing and just didn’t buy any right away, assuming she had a little time to spare and had planned on going out, or scheduled the delivery, for the next 1-2 days.
      Again, 100% speculation on my part, but it is still 100% plausible, and AS plausible as Sarah’s wild theory that Pam purposely didn’t order the preferred coffee in retaliation for the drunken dead mother picture text.

      1. Nodramalama*

        Considering this appears to be an ongoing feud I suspect Pam’s actions were retaliatory

  11. KeinName*

    I’d also try to report that image wherever I can. Would make me seriously afraid of this coworker. And uneasy that she has access to my phone number. Though I suppose grief can unbalance you.
    I didn’t know people are photographing their deceased loved ones nowadays. That used to be a popular genre when photography was first invented. Bug doesn’t seem like something I’d like to come across on my phone.

    1. Catherine*

      Depending on religion it can be a way to verify correct observance of rites. I was provided one when my grandmother passed in order to demonstrate that she’d been wrapped and decorated correctly–and in fact, I sent it to my HR because they requested proof of death to grant me bereavement, and due to diaspora issues and language barriers I couldn’t obtain a death certificate.

      1. Not that other person you didn't like*

        That’s frankly what your HR deserves in this situation.

        1. Random Bystander*

          Agreed–I was never asked for any proof when my dad died. Just called my manager to tell him, he said “let me know when you’re back” (because I was way out of town, 200 miles away, and a little unsettled about how things were going to proceed from there). Then when I wanted to take a day off before the memorial service, he reminded me I still had 4 hours of bereavement to use before tapping into my PTO. But I wasn’t asked at any point in all of that to provide proof of my dad’s death (I suppose that might happen with someone with a poor work history or unusual number of relatives that they requested bereavement leave for).

          1. Catherine*

            I had no marks against my work history and it was the only bereavement I’d ever applied for. As far as I can tell, the reason I was asked for proof when none of my coworkers had been asked in similar situations was because I’m mixed-race and the death occurred in the homeland. Which is its own can of worms that I’m frankly still holding a little grudge over.

    2. NorthernTeacher*

      I wouldn’t be afraid but definitely uneasy. There is a reason why the nightly news makes a “disturbing image” statement before showing video or photos that show death and websites make the images “must click to see.” Not to mention that the news tends to use images where the body has been covered or are from a distance so less graphic.
      Assuming this happened in a culture where post-mortem photos are not normally shared, the act of sending it comes across as intentionally trying to upset the other person. It’s like a child whose feelings are hurt when their friend won’t play with them, so they hit the other child. “You hurt me, so I will hurt you back.” I don’t normally like to infantize grown adults, but the photo adds an extra immature and punitive layer that only sending the sarcastic text would not have had. I suspect even cultures where post-mortem photos are the norm, they are normally shared with family and close friends as memorials rather than with the purpose of harm. (Edit: Or for practical purposes like another poster has shared below.)

      1. Madre del becchino*

        I was at calling hours for a neighbor recently and saw someone take a photo of the deceased in the casket. Not something that I see on a regular basis, but it’s out there.

        1. Kyrielle*

          Take it, yes. Keep it for a sad but still important memory, sure. Send it to someone who asked for it, for cultural or memory reasons, sure. Send it to someone not related/involved/knowing the person, because you’re angry with them? Oh heck no.

          1. Clisby*

            Agreed. Also, I have never heard of the practice of taking a photo of the deceased in the hospital bed they died in. It’s always been of someone in a casket.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        There are also some religious practices that require cleansing after viewing images of dead bodies.

    3. MigraineMonth*

      I have a friend who was renting a room from a woman who kept going into the room when they weren’t present (which is a violation of their tenant rights). My friend texted her to ask that she please not do so, and the renter responded with a photograph of the renter’s son’s gravestone.

      Which is when I told my friend she could move in with me until she found a new place, because anyone who responds to normal requests with gravestone pictures was NOT a safe person to rent from.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Yeah, that is definitely a “leave a cartoon style person shaped hole in the wall while calling the police” situation.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I’ve never met someone as narcissistic as that woman (I’ll call her “Karen”), and she went from hot to cold so fast it gave me whiplash. One second she’s calling my friend “like her child” and the next she’s threatening to call the police and report my friend for assault because they didn’t clean their room to Karen’s standards. I called Karen and negotiated that since things obviously weren’t working, they would move out on Saturday and Karen would refund two weeks’ rent; but when Karen got home on Saturday and saw my friend was moving out she flipped out. I was so rattled by her screaming at me to move my car out of her driveway that I backed into her (illegally parked) car and left a minor dent; she called the police and reported I threatened her. I spent fifteen minutes trying to give her my insurance information (I’d already reported the accident to my insurance), but instead of writing anything down she just kept asking how I could do something like this to her? Didn’t I know that one of her children was dead??

    4. DE*

      OP says that the photo was of the mother in her hospice bed. She may have been alive in the photo. OP didn’t clarify.

  12. Myrin*

    Re: #2, I really have to wonder what goes through some people’s heads. “I want to meet with you for this thing I need” – “Sure, go right ahead, you can see my availability here” – “I’m seething! Why haven’t you scheduled this meeting I requested??”

    1. Caroline*

      Based on my own experiences, I have to wonder about the genders of the people involved… I’m a woman in a male dominated field, and I’ve been careful and intentional for years about only scheduling meetings for things I am responsible for coordinating (or when I’m the most junior person involved, or I want to force a discussion because I have a point to make, etc.) If i don’t feel like I should be scheduling a meeting, I’ll reply saying my calendar is up to date, or directly telling people to please schedule a meeting to discuss the matter. It’s not strictly about how gender roles tend to work in my workplace, it’s also about making sure my own personal tendencies to feel responsible for coordinating and administrating things doesn’t override common sense roles and responsibilities in the workplace…but when there’s any pushback about it, sexism or other biases or weird individual power struggle issues tend to be involved.

      1. Wonderland*

        Yes, my mind immediately went to “LW 2 is female, flipped out colleague is a male engineer”.

        1. MsM*

          Ditto. Although my office is majority-female, and there are certain departments where everyone emailing back and forth with their available times is the culture for some reason, so I do occasionally find myself having to remind people the calendar function exists to get out of always having to be the one to schedule those meetings.

      2. Ash*

        I thought the absolute same. Im pretty senior in a male dominated industry and have pissed off a few people with the same response.

      3. mreasy*

        Woman exec here, and even in my relatively progressive field, I can tell that male colleagues expect me to schedule or lie meetings. I have trained myself not to do it unless I asked for the meet, but it’s not unusual. I know we don’t know the genders here and I could see an unreasonable person of any flavor responding like this, but it wouldn’t surprise me if OP is non-male and the colleague is.

        1. New laptop who dis*

          saaaaaaaame. I only book my own meetings or ones my boss asks for, and I push back when dudes act like I’m their assistant.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            A guy in another department emailed six people (including me) with the suggestion that “we should meet about next steps for [project he was assigned]”.

            It sat there for three weeks before his manager responded–still to everyone–“Any update on this?”

            I have no idea why they thought one of the people on the email list–most of whom were managers in other departments–would volunteer to schedule a meeting for *his* project.

            1. ASGirl*

              it’s like the guys you date who suggest that doing such and such would be fun, then don’t schedule it, then expect you to be waiting around for them with no life of your own when they call and want to do that such and such thing that evening, with only a few hours notice. Sorry, I plan my week out and don’t wait around for anyone.

      4. Smithy*

        My mind also went here. Where often “royal we’s” will stand leave a hole for someone to step up and do administrative work (such as scheduling meetings), and responding with “My calendar is up to date” is a tool I often use to more passively indicate to someone that they should schedule the meeting.

        I do think a reason for using that passively (or passive aggressively) is that it allows for a dynamic of assuming the best in my colleagues. And for people just busy or overwhelmed and defaulting to lazy language, it can redirect them without having to call it out. However if there’s a conversation to connect over something someone else wants, and I were to hear from them that their calendar was up to date – I’d likely respond with something like “fantastic, so is mine – I look forward to seeing the invite”. Which I know would be on the passive aggressive side.

        The other piece, quite frankly, is that where I work a lot of times calendars are NOT updated to reflect work travel or things like “I try not to book Friday meetings”.

        1. Sydney*

          I love this! The “royal wes”. Yes, I know several people who use “we” when they mean “not me”.

      5. Massive Dynamic*

        I hate that gender is the first thing I thought of too. Not meaning to read into things that aren’t there in the LW’s information; it’s just happened too many times to me (female) too that it’s a flag.

      6. Elle*

        I default to this response because it’s very common in my workplace, but I’ll occasionally sense confusion or annoyance in the requester’s response.
        The confused people tend to be early career or new to our industry or workplace. If I know this is someone’s situation, I’ll be extra warm (happy to help! My calendar is up to date, feel free to set something up).
        For the people who get annoyed, though, it’s not because they don’t understand what I’m referring to. It’s because they don’t think they should have to concern themselves with anything that feels like admin. I’ve gotten this from male devs, engineers, project managers, etc for my entire career. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve received a Teams message asking for a meeting and let them know my calendar is up to date and that they should send me a request, only for the request to never materialize. I’m always confused by that (until I forget about it in under 0.005 seconds) because I wonder if now they’re just not getting their work done? More likely, they found someone else to do their work for them… which makes me sad, but at least it’s not gonna be me.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          I tried not responding to message along the lines of “We should set up a meeting about this” sent to a large group. *Three weeks* later, the guy’s manager sent “Has anyone responded to this?”

          No, we haven’t. Dude is welcome to set up a meeting for his own project, or to contact the project intake coordinator.

    2. Zelda*

      LW2 says “which is why I told them to schedule it,” but *did* the LW tell them to schedule it? Unless they left something out of the letter, they didn’t. Maybe it’s because the LW’s organization has norms about using Outlook that are very different from how I’m used to using it, but my internal reaction to “my calendar is up to date” would be “??? Okay, that’s nice for you. Back to my question, can we meet?”

      1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        I think it pretty clearly meant “Look on my calendar and pick a time convenient to you and anyone else involved.”

        1. Brain the Brian*

          My mind didn’t immediately go there (instead it went to “angry colleague is young and brash”), but I can definitely see gender playing a role here. Either way, the colleague overreacted.

          2. Elle*

            Is it really brash to gently suggest a colleague do their job? If someone asks me to print something for them, I’ll kindly point them to the location of instructions for adding a network printer.

            Fun rule of thumb for men in the workplace: before wondering if your colleague is brash or being rude (OP was not), reflect on your request and whether it was appropriate in the first place. This is going to make your day-to-day much easier and improve how you’re seen by your colleagues. Guarantee it.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              When coworkers reply, “My calendar is up to date,” I usually feel a bit sheepish, because I realize I was assuming they would do the scheduling when it was actually my responsibility. I don’t *get angry*.

              (As a woman in a male-dominated field, I have justifiable things to get angry about, even if I’m never really allowed to show it.)

              1. Elle*

                Exactly! The first few times someone said that to me I was like, “oh, snap, that IS on me. Better get comfortable doing it!”

            2. Brain the Brian*

              To be clear here, the person I was suggesting was acting brashly is coworker who flipped out when the LW said “My calendar is open” — not the LW who made that gentle suggestion. I assumed “young, brash, doesn’t know to use Outlook’s calendar functions, and flipping out rather than admitting they don’t know how to check an Outlook calendar” — which is still way too much to be assuming on a first read, in hindsight.

              1. Elle*

                This makes MUCH more sense, and now I’m thinking you’re being far too diplomatic- brash? Rude and ignorant of industry try norms, more like…

        2. Roo*

          That’s my understanding too. It’s a very common response for me and my colleagues (UK, local government organisation). “Yes, sure, my Outlook’s up to date” is a standard reply when someone asks about setting up a meeting or call with me. And managers of varying genders and seniorities will ask, if I’m the underling tasked with arranging something, “Roo, can you check everyone’s calendars and set up a suitable date for us all to meet?”. I wouldn’t give it a second thought, let alone view it as someone being disrespectful or insolent. Perhaps the LW’s colleague is just angling for an excuse to be prickly and reeled in this particular one. Having said that, I would have thought it was incumbent on the person requesting the call/meeting to set it up and send the invite. It sounds like the LW is the more senior in this situation. I take their response as “look at my diary and pick a slot from it that suits you best” – maybe there is one or more attitude issue with AngryResponder here.

          1. Mockingjay*

            it was incumbent on the person requesting the call/meeting to set it up and send the invite

            This! If you request the meeting, then you schedule it. I read the situation as Other Person was asking OP2 if they would be agreeable to meet about X. OP2’s reply indicated, “yes, set it up” (customary office-speak in OP2’s org).

            My only suggestion is that OP2 might want ensure future convos include an affirmation, for clarity. Chalk this up as a simple misunderstanding or slight difference in communication styles that might need a bit of adjustment.

        3. Miette*

          +1

          It’s pretty clear the LW’s intent was to indicate that their colleague should therefore choose a time they’re both open to schedule the meeting, they just didn’t state it outright, which frankly wasn’t necessary IMO. This isn’t rocket science–Colleague asked for meeting, LW said their calendar is up to date, Colleague flipped their sh*t instead of taking the conversation to its logical (if implied) conclusion. I don’t think there’s a lot of nuance.

          1. Artemesia*

            Since that didn’t work, next time write ‘My calendar is up to date, so you can go ahead and schedule your meeting.’

            1. Jennifer Strange*

              Or just keep the same wording and hope the people you work with aren’t children who will flip out. That’s a better option than feeling the need to be over effusive because one person has a temper.

        4. Momma Bear*

          I’m with Zelda here that it wouldn’t hurt to say, “My calendar is up to date. Please find a time that works for everyone and set up the meeting.” Simply saying “my calendar is up to date” in my office would not be enough. Sometimes my boss will say, “Please look at my calendar and give me a few times that would work for you” so he’s not actually wanting me to set it up, but do research. Then HE sets it up, because it works better for him to have control of his own one-on-one meetings. You have to know your audience.

          1. Jennifer Strange*

            But why does the LW have to change a completely fine and clear response to coddle their co-worker?

      2. Allonge*

        Is ‘yes, we can meet’ really more helpful than an indication on where you can see the other person’s availability?

        Maybe, maybe, maybe saying just ‘my calendar is up to date’ is a little brusque. Maybe. But in context, it is perfectly clear.

        1. Aardvark*

          ‘ My calendar is up to date so pick a free time that suits you’ might have been a more forceful return, but you are right that context should have provided the second half.

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            I’ve been using the “My calendar is up to date” line for 20 years now. (Spoiler alert: Not everyone’s is!) It isn’t rude or brusque. If I have a meeting that might go long or think that a certain time would work better, I might note that – especially if the call is related to a topic in my other meetings. But the only time I’ve gotten pushback has been when people don’t know how to use online calendars. Or the Scheduling Assistant.

            I am not above suggesting better times if someone just tries to put something on my calendar without really looking at my availability, but the first move is in the hands of the person who wants to meet.

          2. Lily Rowan*

            “My calendar is up to date” is totally normal, but this does reinforce for me continuing to use “feel free to book any available time on my calendar.”

            1. Trotwood*

              I don’t like “my calendar is up to date” because it only implies what the recipient should do with this information, and can sound like “why are you even asking me when to schedule this meeting when we have calendars.” I think a “feel free to schedule a meeting” or “please go ahead and book a time on my calendar” is more direct and less open to mis-interpretation. That said, it’s always worth assuming someone has good intentions in their business communications unless they really show you otherwise.

              1. Elle*

                Respectfully, what other possible reason could someone have for telling you that their calendar is up to date?

                I will occasionally tell my boss, “not to brag, but my calendar is UP TO DATE and my inbox is AT ZERO, huzzah!” … but she knows that’s because I have ADHD and an average of 20-30 meetings per week.

                1. biobotb*

                  Yeah, I feel like commenters are tying themselves into knots a bit, in order to explain how that phrase could be misconstrued. Exactly what other reason would the LW have for telling someone, who wants to meet, that their calendar is up to date?

              2. Allonge*

                I think this is one of those business shorthands that people use.

                The first time you meet the expression, it’s ok to ask what it means. It’s ok to confirm in new workplaces. It’s not the clearest communication of the world, but it’s also not that mysterious in context.

            2. trick*

              I schedule professionally, and I’m absolutely not offended if someone says “My calendar is up to date.” It’s useful info that gives me free reign to schedule as needed. However, if that’s all you say, stylistically it does feel brusque–which can be fine! Brusque is a perfectly acceptable style and it’s wildly out of line to be offended by that response. Sometimes I really appreciate the ‘down to business’ style with no fluff, but if I don’t know them well I might wonder if *I* have annoyed them if I get a brusque response.

              1. Elle*

                You put this into words really well. I agree it could be read as brusque on its own (eg, without the “sure” that OP started their response with), but like… brusque is actually work appropriate as long as it’s not actually rude. Allowing yourself to become emotionally reactive to someone saying something as neutral as “my calendar is up to date” is a red flag that Something is Up with you, and that’s your responsibility to delve into and solve. It’s not other people’s responsibility to speak gently and deferentially to you when they make requests like you’re some kind of boy king.

              2. MigraineMonth*

                I think that whether brusque is work appropriate depends on culture, relationship, and–unfortunately–gender/race.

                At my first job out of university, I struggled with getting the tone of my emails friendly enough. (Part of this was inexperience, part of it was the toxic environment.) Unfortunately, thanks to references, this has gotten passed along through managers who *said they’d seen no examples themselves*, but still thought it was important to pass along that a previous reference said I’d struggled with communicating professionally five years ago.

                So now my emails to colleagues I don’t work with often are fluffy and indirect. (Which seems to have backfired last month, when someone got offended that I was being condescending. I give up.)

        2. Despachito*

          I am a “tell-culture” person, and I do see the “my calendar is up to date” a little brusque. I would be confused – does that really mean “go to my calendar and pick any time that suits you”?
          If I had a bad day, I could even wonder whether I missed something obvious without knowing when I asked them if they have a moment?

          That said I would never dream of BERATING that person for not setting up the meeting I requested for me.

      3. LateRiser*

        LW said the interaction was along the lines of

        – Do you have time to meet today?

        – Sure, my calendar is up to date

        So they’d already covered that yes, they can meet today, both explicitly with the “sure” and implicitly with there presumably being space on their calendar for the day. What more do you need?

        1. Zelda*

          It’s the “implicitly” that is not guaranteed of success. If you want me to schedule a meeting, you have to say, “go ahead and schedule the meeting.” The connection that the LW implies would have sailed right over my head. (Where I am, the highest-ranked person involved usually sets up the meeting, so that they ‘own’ the invite in the system, and so that they are the one telling others where to be and what to do.)

          1. Allonge*

            Ok, but ‘highest level person sets the meeting’ is not universal – on the other hand it would be known to the people in your company and places like that.

            So in a setting like that, there is a whole different situation, the rules are different. I guess there is a way to indicate to the higher level person when you would prefer the meeting to take place (so that it’s not scheduled three weeks after your deadlines). You would probably ask the person to schedule it, right? Not just say ‘can we have a meeting?’

          2. LateRiser*

            And if the answer were only implicit you may have a point, but the question was also explicitly answered.

          3. Blank*

            Conversely, where I am, if the lower-level person asked for the meeting it’s assumed they have time to check diaries and send the invite – not the higher one

            1. Antilles*

              Same. And honestly, in my experience, the lower level person doing the scheduling usually makes more practical sense.
              If my junior employee asks for a meeting so we can discuss an issue on his task, he’s going to know more about the purpose of the meeting than I do. Why? Because it’s his task that he works on every single day while I’m managing half a dozen people each with their own tasks and projects. The final decision on option A versus option B is mine, but prior to the meeting, he’s going to know more of the details and therefore be in a better position to estimate the length of the meeting and know who else should be added to the invite.

            1. Myrin*

              Yeah, this whole line of argument doesn’t make any sense to me because the coworker’s reaction was flipping out and “saying that [OP] should have scheduled the meeting” – that clearly means that they understood OP’s intention perfectly well.

          5. Also-ADHD*

            I think in this case, it’s on the onus of the person who wanted to meet to schedule the meeting and they were given enough to do this with the “sure” and calendar info. It’s not exactly accurate to say LW wanted the other person to schedule the meeting, so much as the other person wanted a meeting and LW gave them the go ahead to schedule. LW isn’t requesting/wanting anything, just signaling willingness to meet.

          6. Ellis Bell*

            I honestly can’t think what other interpretation of “my calendar is up to date” there is except “…so you can schedule something”. And even if the person was still unsure if they could set up the meeting they could say “Is it okay if I schedule that then?” or “Are you okay to schedule that then?”. Flipping out is not how you clarify something.

          7. ecnaseener*

            The thing is, it doesn’t actually matter whether this person understood the implicit permission to literally schedule the meeting. If they weren’t sure about that part, they had the option of looking at LW’s calendar to find a time and then emailing back to propose that time. (Hopefully that’s what you would do yourself if a higher-ranked person sent you a message like LW’s?)

          8. Observer*

            Where I am, the highest-ranked person involved usually sets up the meeting, so that they ‘own’ the invite in the system, and so that they are the one telling others where to be and what to do

            The thing is that this is probably not the case here. Because who “flips out” at someone senior to them and tells that Senior what thye “should have done”?

            Which means that either someone is just being unreasonable in general (most likely in my opinion) or they don’t know how to behave reasonably within an organizational hierarchy.

          9. Elle*

            If this would have sailed past you, that’s probably because handling things that way simply isn’t a thing for your workplace or industry.

            I can see someone relatively early in their career finding it confusing or terse, but if that were the case, the employee needs to find a way to clear up their confusion, not just sit with it. Because it is THEIR confusion- “Sure, my calendar is up to date” is not an unclear response in any way, shape, or form.

          10. biobotb*

            I mean, you could say the same for the coworker who got angry. They didn’t tell the LW they expected the LW to schedule the meeting either.

      4. Myrin*

        I read the “which is why I told them to schedule it” as happening after the coworker had already flipped out. Like, coworker threw a fit and then OP replied by explicitly stating that coworker needs to schedule it.

        As for your second paragraph, I get what you’re saying and in fact, that would need to be my reaction too, but that’s simply because I don’t have access to my coworkers’ calendars. I would assume that that’s not the case for OP and that the coworker in question could indeed view OP’s calendar. So in that context, I would expect coworker to understand what OP meant by that remark (and in fact, we can be pretty sure that they indeed understood because their answer was that OP should be the one to schedule the meeting; that only makes sense if they knew what OP meant by her calendar remark).

        1. Allonge*

          If someone does not have access to the other person’s calendar, that is a very reasonable thing to point out in response to ‘my calendar is up to date’. (I agree with you, just adding to this line of thinking).

          If appropriate, I would add ‘I am available at any time between 2 and 5 and would need 30 minutes, do you have availabililty there?’ or something similar to keep the ball rolling.

        2. Also-ADHD*

          In Outlook, anyone can see available or blocked times and LW mentions Teams. When setting a meeting, if you add your participants, you select Check Availability and (as long as everyone keeps their calendar up to date), you can see times people are open or not to select a meeting time. This is true even when the calendar is not shared—you can still see blocked, tentative, and free times.

          1. Allonge*

            There is a setting (at least we have it) where you are not sharing availability either, so this depends on the setup.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              That seems pretty useless in a work setting to me. Like we’re all back in the days when we had our own personal planners and had to set up meetings as the final step in any meeting. (I don’t miss those days.)

              1. Allonge*

                I am not saying it’s useful – it just exists, which the comment I was responding to did not consider.

                I like it not at all, but still like it more than a shared calendar that is not reliable.

                1. Charlotte Lucas*

                  Ugh. We have someone whose calendar is really unreliable. Mainly because she “forgets” to add when she’s out unexpectedly. usually when she has a deadline.

            2. Also-ADHD*

              Oh, that’s true, but I would imagine not the case where LW works based on all of the information. That’s pretty rarely used, in my experience. I can’t imagine why any org would want things set up that way, especially one that works distributed the way LW describes.

        3. Harper the Other One*

          With the Outlook Scheduling Assistant at my workplace, you can see availability for anyone necessary for the meeting, even if you can’t ordinarily view their calendar. I think that’s part of why OP considered “my calendar is up to date” as sufficient information. But, I will say that feature is not obvious so unless OP’s colleague has been shown how to use it, they may not know it exists. Maybe this is an opportunity to spot a training gap (that probably exists for multiple staff).

          1. el l*

            If Outlook Scheduling Assistant is news to people – yes, there needs to be a quick training. Pretty standard for internal calls for at least the last 2+ years.

            FWIW, sounds to me like OP should take the reaction as, “this person flipped out over something which has nothing to do with me.”

          2. Elle*

            If someone is using the Office suite in their workplace and doesn’t know about the feature that lets you view availability for meeting attendees, and that person’s job requires them to set/attend meetings, I would say that that is a shocking level of incompetence. It’s Outlook. That feature has existed for years. It’s an incredibly obvious tab visible in any new meeting window.
            The only way I would call this a training gap and not a serious concern about that employee is if the employee were an intern or in their first job out of college or had only worked as an assistant to monks before and knew how to trim quills and prep parchment but not make an Outlook meeting.

      5. bamcheeks*

        I mean, I think someone can legitimately misunderstand this, but flipping out over it being rude is another level.

        1. londonedit*

          Yeah – I said elsewhere but in my experience going into people’s calendars and picking times for meetings isn’t generally how it’s done in my industry, or certainly not where I currently work (things may have moved on in other companies, but I’ve been in my current job for a good few years now). We’re a small team so we ask each other if we’re free at X time, and if there’s a meeting with another team then someone will ask whether people are free. I have to say that if someone literally just said ‘Sure, my calendar’s up to date’ I might initially see it as a brush-off or like they weren’t really interested in meeting with me – or depending on tone maybe even a bit like they were saying ‘I’m too busy and important to check, you do it’. Which would feel a bit rude. Having read the responses here about how normal it is in other workplaces, I know I won’t feel like that in the future, but before today? Yeah, if I encountered that response I probably would think wow, OK, no need to be off about it. If they’d said ‘Sure, I think my calendar’s up to date so feel free to choose a good time for you’ then I’d get it.

      6. Despachito*

        This.

        Albeit I fully agree that it was not OP2’s responsibility to book the meeting, I think that “my calendar is up-to-date” without saying “please feel free to book a meeting”does seem a little passive-aggressive.

        No reason for the other person to expect OP to book it, and even less to flip out though.

        1. LW2*

          Hi, I’m LW2. I think you and many of the other commenters are ignoring the fact that I said SURE, my calendar is up to date-which is in my letter. I’m not sure how this phrase can be seen as passtive-aggressive, but what do I know.

          2. Also-ADHD*

            It’s totally normal. If the person had been confused (didn’t understand what that meant, didn’t know how to view your calendar, etc.), they could’ve asked for clarification and that would be reasonable on a one-off–though maybe passive-aggressive if they didn’t get it the next time, on their part. What I think is this person just wanted you to do the legwork to set the meeting and/or drop things and meet immediately. They just sound like a jerk.

        2. Allonge*

          If you are used to more niceties, the phrasing is a bit short, but that does not make it passive-agressive!

      7. Dread Pirate Roberts*

        In my workplaces, “my calendar is up to date” is ubiquitous – and polite – for “I’m not one of those people who blocks out time in my Outlook calendar so that it’s impossible to find a time to meet, so yes please go ahead and schedule something.”

        1. Guacamole Bob*

          I don’t just block out time on projects or use the focus time feature, but I have to do a lot of “my calendar is up to date, but if you can’t find a time that works for the group let me know and I can likely move some things around”. I have a lot of one-on-one and other pretty flexible meetings, and a lot of meetings I get invited to and might or might not attend depending on what else comes up.

          Even if OP’s response was misunderstood, wasn’t the warmest it could possibly be, or wasn’t perfectly suited to the hierarchies of everyone’s workplace (as the comments have shown), it was extremely normal and definitely not rude.

          1. Elle*

            Yeah, some of us do need to block out time so we can get our *actual jobs* done. If I didn’t block off some focus time each week, I would not be able to make any headway on long term tasks due to all the immediate/“urgent” nonsense.

      8. Also-ADHD*

        I still think it’s not rude and being livid would be odd, but I could see feedback that LW needs to clearly say “Sure, feel free to schedule a meeting whenever I’m open—my calendar is up to date.” But I assumed that’s what they meant (otherwise, why reference the calendar feature used for scheduling meetings) and I also assumed there might have been more to the conversation, just that was the line called out.

        1. Elle*

          It’s wild to me that OP’s coworker blew up on them and folks are talking about feedback for OP. The feedback doesn’t even make much sense, considering that their response already began with “Sure,”.

          1. Also-ADHD*

            Yeah. I also assume LW would have been fine with clarifying if the person had come back with–I’m confused what you mean/how do I see your calendar/whatever. But they didn’t.

        2. Dahlia*

          They said “sure” though. That’s literally what they said besides the “feel free” part.

      9. Quinalla*

        I think you did miss something, colleague asked if they could meet, LW replied “Sure, my calendar is up to date” The “Sure” is them saying yes we can meet.

        It does depend on office norms, I agree, but for my office this is exactly what I would say because our norms are to check someone’s calendar (or multiple people’s calendars) and schedule a meeting. Usually we don’t even ask first, just send a calendar invitation, especially for something like a review. I have 6-12 hours of my calendar every week that for me to review something similar to what LW is talking about. I don’t schedule any of them because I don’t know anything about them until someone brings it to me. They need the review completed, they know the timeline, they know who needs to be invited. They are the person who makes sense to schedule the meeting :)

      10. Observer*

        ut my internal reaction to “my calendar is up to date” would be “??? Okay, that’s nice for you. Back to my question, can we meet?”

        OK. Even with those norms, which are not typical, the the person was wildly over-reacting. As you note, you would STILL be asking “OK, so when can we meet?” Keep in mind that this initial message was also indirect. “Do yo uhave time?” is even less “Schedule a meeting with me” than “Sure, here is my schedule.”

        So, why are you nit picking the LW, while ignoring that the person responded in a way that was inappropriate regardless of whetehr the LW was clear enough or not?

      11. JB (not in Houston)*

        Did you miss the part where the LW said “sure,” meaning “yes, we can meet,” which answers your question?

    3. Resume please*

      Right? I say it nicely in person, but my philosophy is “If you want a meeting, then you schedule it”

      Where I work, saying “My calendar is current” is actually polite, because it implies scheduling whenever there’s any open space that suits them

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      It seems to be a modern expression of power that some people are extremely wrapped up in. “How can I never be the one to schedule meetings I request? People keep ignoring my verbal instructions to be my meeting scheduler! They tell me to schedule the meeting! This will not stand!!!”

    5. But maybe not*

      Being told or being able to tell someone “My calendar is up to date” is my work love language.

    6. Hyaline*

      I can see potentials for confusion—very new to the workplace, language barrier, that kind of thing—where “my calendar is up to date” could be misread (as a weird aside or even a no, my calendar is full) but the flipping out is hard to explain as anything but being a jerk. If someone is confused by office lingo they can always…wait for it…ask for clarification.

      1. Butterfly Counter*

        Exactly. At my current job, I don’t have access to my colleagues’ schedules. “My calendar is up to date,” is not a phrase I’ve ever heard professionally.

        If I were to change jobs into this exact scenario: I need a meeting with Person and I call to ask if they have time that day and I get the answer OP2 gave, my response would be, “Oh! I have access to OP2’s calendar! And since I’m the one who needs this meeting, I should be the one to schedule it! Oops! I better pull it up and look for a time.”

        Context is all there, even for someone who’s never heard the phrase before.

    7. juliebulie*

      I have this problem with a particular coworker who always asks for meetings and expects me to set them up even though I’m not the one who wants the meeting. One time he very patronizingly explained to me how to do it. (His explanation was so vague that I’m not sure he actually knew how to do it.)

      1. Elle*

        I have this happen a lot too. Surprise, they’re all men and I’m not.

        I sort of love that your colleague patronizingly explained how to do it… what a way to set you up to say, “Sounds like you’ve got a good handle on it, Ferguson! I’ll look forward to our chat.”

    8. LoMo*

      I seem to be in the minority as I find the response a bit annoying, as someone who does the majority of scheduling for my teams. But it’s more to do with scheduling meetings for either a large audience (where the time will never work for everyone) or for people who have a fully blocked calendar b/c they block time or are that busy. In both those cases that response is useless. Not their fault, but I’ve never found it helpful. But I always check calendars first so if I’m reaching out it’s specifically because I need more information than that.

      In OP’s case it’s a 1:1 so I’m confused why the person didn’t simply booked based on calendar availability. This person’s response is wild and OP shouldn’t feel the need to change anything based on it. I would take how the person normally is into consideration and maybe write it off as them freaking out about deadlines or something.

    9. LW2*

      Hi, I’m LW2. I saw your comment was the first one here and almost all of the ones are nested under it, so I just wanted to reply here, and not necessarily to you. As it said in my letter, I responded with SURE, my calendar is up to date. Everyone that seems to think I should be adding “please feel free to schedule a meeting” and saying that “my calendar is up to date” is rude or passive aggressive, seems to be glossing over the fact that I said SURE before I said this.

      1. Elle*

        OP, I’m sorry not only that your coworker is unprofessional but also that your actual words are getting lost here. This entire thread is a bit frustrating to me as someone who uses the exact phrasing you did on the daily, because it matters not a whit whether someone could be confused or even mildly “put off” by the response, “Sure, my calendar is up to date.” You wrote in asking about your unhinged colleague, not asking about your tone (which was appropriate). I’m trying not to assume gender but as an AFAB person, if someone (esp a male someone) blew up at me over something innocuous and a majority of the comments were about the tone of what I’d said, I’d probably have to shut the browser and go breathe deeply in my backyard.

        I’ll occasionally get pushback when I suggest that a scientist, engineer, or dev can check my calendar and schedule a meeting, but I’m fortunate that a blowup would not be tolerated in my workplace.

  13. Awkwardness*

    #1: The answer covers it all. I am a bit shocked how you mentioned drunk texting of Pam as the obvious reason and it makes me pause how many similar incidents might have occurred in your office so far.
    I would avoid taking sides. There is too much unnecessary escalation, it’s a mess.

  14. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

    OP1 (Pam and Sarah feud, inappropriate photo) – I think what jumps out to me the most is this:

    > Knowing Sarah, I know she was drunk and emotional when she sent the text, so I didn’t think anything of it

    This tells us that Sarah has a history of doing similar things when “drunk and emotional” (should read “drunk and a jerk”) – and OP, and maybe others in the workplace, have just accepted this as standard for Sarah. Sarah is actually a liability – what else might she write while drunk? Even more worrying if her position is one where she interacts with customers/ has access to email in off hours. Does she ever show up to work drunk / hungover, how is her work in general, etc.

    I would have just shaken it off if it was a onr-off and put it down to a grief response, but this is clearly part of a pattern.

    The coffee feud is just petty stuff and I’d be inclined to let that go, but bring the more serious parts of it to Bob. Don’t let on that you overheard her coffee-related rant the other day.

    1. Brain the Brian*

      I’d leave “a jerk” out of it. I cursed out a delivery manager the day after my dad died because he couldn’t move up a delivery so it would arrive before I had to leave town for the funeral. I’m not proud of it, but people do weird things when they’re emotional. Was that text illogical? Yes. Bizarre? Yes. The work of a jerk? Ehhhhhhh… I’m holding judgment.

      I do agree that Bob needs to start managing properly. We know nothing at all about the workplace’s communications (do they even use email, for instance, or is this a retail or similar establishment where employees just communicate by text?), and I don’t think customer interactions are relevant to the letter. But Bob needs to manage his employees so they get along civilly while at work.

      1. bamcheeks*

        Huh, there’s an interesting difference for me between “x is 1. drunk and 2. a jerk” and “x is drunk-and-a-jerk”— as in, is the jerkiness a quality inherent in them separate from their drunkness, or is it that they were doing jerky things because they were drunk and grieving. I do think the latter’s legit, and I think it would be fair to say you were a jerk to the delivery driver! I don’t think that means you or Sarah inherently are jerks as a permanent condition, but I think having very understandable reasons for being a jerk in that particular situation and time doesn’t mean you weren’t being a jerk!

        2. Brain the Brian*

          In the case of Pam and Sarah, the LW’s additional context in the comment section has made it clear they’re both jerks, completely separately from any drunkenness or grief. Bob needs to manage.

          (And yes, I probably was a jerk to that delivery manager. Although why he couldn’t move the delivery up by a day when he was in charge of several dozen drivers and I was willing to pay more is still beyond me. I wound up canceling the order entirely — still screwing up his precious schedule! — and going to the store to buy it and drive it home myself. When the store employees brought out the box, it was even the one originally tagged for delivery to my house three days later. Lol!)

      2. Turquoisecow*

        Yeah grief definitely alters people’s behavior in dramatic and often really mean ways. I wouldn’t excuse Sarah exactly but I also wouldn’t use this incident to color every interaction I have with her.

        But if she’s regularly getting drunk and emotional and texting coworkers things that are a bit mean, that can’t be excused by grief. And maybe she needs to think about the quantity of alcohol she’s consuming, especially when emotional. None of that is OP’s problem to worry about, though.

        1. Brain the Brian*

          The additional context that the LW has added at the very top of the comment section today has made it abundantly clear that Pam and Sarah are regularly jerks to one another, drunk or not. Yowza all-around.

    2. Earlk*

      It could also read “This is very unlike Sarah so I’m assuming it was because she was drunk and emotional”.

      1. bamcheeks*

        I don’t know, I think if someone experienced a major bereavement and did something a bit weird, you’d think, oh wow, grief takes us all in strange ways. If you jump to, “she’s drunk”, it’s probably because there’s a track record.

        1. Andromeda*

          I would probably drink too if my mum had just died *that day*, and since this was post-apology call OP might have known for certain Sarah was drunk without any pattern involved. Sending the photo was still beyond unacceptable, and I hope the boss’s response to the coffee thing was “you did WHAT?”, but I don’t think it’s a symptom of Sarah being an Incurably Bad Person.

          1. bamcheeks*

            I don’t think “c has a track record of drinking and subsequent behaviour which is inappropriate for work” and “x is an incurable bad person” are remotely synonymous— that’s a wild overstep! We can say that some behaviour is inappropriate (especially with work colleagues!) without it being a condemnation of someone’s entire personality.

            And yeah possibly LW found out during the subsequent phone call that Sarah was drinking in response to her mum’s death, but to me it worded much more like LW is used to stuff like this from Sarah and she generally has not-great boundaries with colleagues.

            1. Andromeda*

              Yeah, that wasn’t really meant to be an @ on second thoughts but it came off as one, apologies! I am seeing some “Sarah must be a terrible person because (assumption that wasn’t actually in the letter)” comments already, and it was more a response to those. And yes I think that not-great boundaries is probably on the money, considering how upset she was at not getting an answer *straight away*. This might just be the first time that it’s manifested in a really obviously harmful way (sometimes oversharing is just tolerated until someone really upsets someone else) and it makes me wonder how enmeshed the whole workplace is tbh.

          2. ecnaseener*

            The letter says “Knowing Sarah, I know she was drunk and emotional when she sent the text, so I didn’t think anything of it and called Sarah that evening.” Especially with the “so,” it seems clear to me that LW knew Sarah was drunk *before* she made the call.

            I agree that it’s hardly surprising that a person might be drinking / drinking enough to get drunk the day their mom died, but I still wouldn’t assume it to be true immediately unless the person had a track record of belligerent drunk behavior.

            FWIW (and now I’m kind of replying to your comment further down this subthread as well), I haven’t seen any commenters implying Sarah is Incurably Bad, but I do see plenty of people saying if she has enough of a pattern of belligerently drunk behavior that her coworker immediately knew that’s what was happening, she probably had been causing other issues in the office for a while. (And who knows, maybe all of those issues arose from her grief, her mom could’ve been in hospice for a while.)

          3. Snoodence Pruter*

            The “knowing Sarah” says to me that Sarah is already known for emotional drunk texting. I don’t think that makes her an incurably bad person anyway, but I don’t think LW would just assume she was drunk without a pattern. I mean, I expect lots of people would drink on the day their mother died, but also lots of people wouldn’t, and almost everyone is going to behave in unusual ways on some level because that’s what happens when your world goes upside down.

      2. Myrin*

        That seems like a huge leap to just make randomly without any kind of precedence. It makes much for sense for OP to say “Knowing Sarah, I know she was drunk and emotional”, when she knows Sarah as someone who turns to alcohol when they encounter situations like the one in the letter.

    3. Observer*

      but this is clearly part of a pattern.

      Yes, it is. And I agree that it really could be a serious liability for the company. I would *certainly* not want her to have acess to anything with any level of sensitivity.

      The coffee feud is just petty stuff and I’d be inclined to let that go

      Disgree. Obviously, it’s not the LW’s problem to deal with, but it’s not petty. Making purchaisng decisions based on personal grudges (evn legitimate ones, to be clear!) is not OK.

      But also, if there is no path for Pam to br able to complain about this and expect a reaosnable response, that’s a huge red flag about the workplace.

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        I strongly disagree about the coffee order. Someone sends me a photo of their dead relative with a passive-aggressive text about how I did not offer condolences? They’re never getting anything out of me again.

        1. Observer*

          Then kick it upstairs. Or quit.

          Refusing to do your job if it involves benefi to another person – even one you legitimately have a real issue with, is not an option.

          1. New Jack Karyn*

            I’d order coffee for the office. I wouldn’t order the fancy coffee that person likes.

  15. Myrin*

    #4, absolutely tell your grandboss about this. I’d be incredibly taken aback and find it very important to know that if I told my report to do [thing], they then went to their own report who is a great and in fact exemplary doer of [thing] and told her to do less [thing] instead – that is not what I would’ve wanted the outcome of our talk to be!

    1. BellaStella*

      I would perhaps ask grand boss, “how would you handle this situation”? and ask for advice on the issues. Because then it is not complaining about the boss, but asking their boss how to get around the manager’s WTF-ness.

  16. Invisible fish*

    #4- This is glorious!! I know because I’ve had it happen to me!! I reveled in responding to everything with “X has told me that you need to speak with him about that” and then done nothing else!!! I totally understand your worries about how it will look to coworkers, but trust me, it’ll take no time at all for people to catch on and be very tired of having to contact your manager. Focus on your tasks and do exactly what your manager said- he’ll be hoisted with his own petard.

    1. Tegan Jovanka*

      I do this, too. My boss is notoriously mercurial and asks for the most ridiculous things – but wants me to be the one to express it to the team. I always preface such requests as: “Boss has asked us to…” to make it clear that the bananapants is not coming from me. People definitely do catch on and when the fallout happens it goes right back on him.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I love it when it’s a face-to-face interaction (we’re hybrid), and I see the look of disappointment when I say, “You’ll have to talk to Manager about that.” It’s actually pretty validating.

  17. Awkwardness*

    #2: You were not rude, but I can see how this answer can come across a little brusque (depending on the circumstances)

    – Hey, are you available today?
    – My calendar is up to date.
    Vs.
    – Hey, are you available today?
    – Only two meetings in the afternoon. My calendar is up to date, go ahead.

    But this is more about flow of conversation, not that you are required to schedule the meetings.

    1. LateRiser*

      That first example is missing the “sure” from the letter, so while it is a little brusque it’s also more brusque than LW reports being.

      1. Awkwardness*

        I was typing from memory and not intentionally trying to misrepresent OPs letter. So good for spotting this.

        But even with an additional “sure”, the conversations still feel different, and that’s my main point.

        1. ecnaseener*

          They do still feel different, but IMO it’s because “Sure, my calendar is up to date” is a normal level of friendly and “Only two meetings in the afternoon. My calendar is up to date, go ahead” is pretty chatty. Both are fine, but giving the number of meetings feels superfluous.

          1. Allonge*

            To me it’s not even that it’s superfluous, it’s that it indicates I already checked my calendar (I suppose I could have this from memory, but we have lots of meetings), and at that stage it’s a little weird not to offer a specific timeslot.

            A bit of padding for the sentence would not hurt at least in my org. But that is taken care of with the ‘go ahead and schedule what you need’, it does not need extra facts.

            1. Charlotte Lucas*

              Why would you offer a specific time slot unless your schedule requires it? The person asking for a meeting also has things scheduled (I assume). To me the burden is on them to find a time that works for both people. (Or all parties – it sounds like this call could require more than just the OP and the call requested.)

              1. Allonge*

                Sure, it’s on them to schedule! That was not my point.

                I would just avoid saying things like ‘I only have two meetings this afternoon’ as a politeness-filler, because it indicates you were just checking your calendar and then ‘schedule this meeting’ becomes a bit weirder. Keep it nice and vague.

            2. Elle*

              Outlook can tell them my available time slots. I’m not doing their job for them and neither should LW.

              1. Allonge*

                Again: I was responding to a suggestion to say ‘Only two meetings in the afternoon’.

                THIS specific insert, if you are using it, implies strongly that you just looked at your calendar and yet are not giving any useful information. IF someone is using this, I would expect that they take the one additional step and indicate something specific they would be ok with. If they don’t, I still would not freak out.

                I am NOT saying OP or anyone needs to do anything more than say ‘my calendar is up to date’ (situation-appropriate pleasantries are recommended). But telling someone you just checked your calendar is not a helpful addition.

          2. Elle*

            Some people believe that you need to add at least a handful of extraneous detail to be considered a normal level of friendly, I guess. Maybe an emoji would help, too. /s

            1. AmuseBouchee*

              I truly HATE all that crap. You know it’s a man expecting this from a woman. If a man replied, “sure, my schedule up to date.” No one would have an issue.

    2. Having a Scrummy Week*

      Agree. It’s just one of those cultural nuance things that can be misinterpreted if you happen to live outside of the culture. I frequently say things like “my calendar is pretty open today, pick a time that works for you” or give a range like “between 2 and 4 pm on Thursday would be ideal.” I’ve never seen it as rude either way.

      In my experience:
      -If you are the requestor in general, the onus is on you to check the other person’s calendar, write an agenda, etc.
      -If you are requesting a meeting with a senior employee, the onus is on you as the junior employee to find time on the busy senior employee’s calendar.
      -If you are dealing with a flaky coworker who wants to meet but usually drops off the face of the planet every other day, the onus is absolutely on THEM to schedule the meeting. (yeah, this one is oddly specific and effing annoying).

      1. Another Kristin*

        Yeah, I usually say in this situation “my Outlook is up to date, please book a time that works for you!” I get a lot of meeting requests and some people in my organization refuse to maintain their Outlook calendars (WHY), I am not doing a bunch of legwork for a person who is probably already asking me for a favour!

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think there’s also an unstated thing about ‘availability’ that goes beyond the space on your calendar. Do you have the mental capacity, are there other non-meeting priorities that OP has, etc.

      So a “Sure, I can meet with you today – my calendar is up-to-date, pick a time that works for you.”

      Just saying “my calendar is up to date” can come across as resigned or blase. “Yeah, whatever, if you insist.”

      1. r.*

        One of the things I always teach my reports about calendar handling is that you should actively maintain blockers.

        If you have a task that must be done every Tuesday afternoon that takes 60-90 minutes put a recurring 90 minute blocker into your Tuesday afternoon.

      2. Awkwardness*

        I think you have a point. I always appreciate if people ask for a suitable timeslot, so I have actual mental capacity for their request (instead of thinking about the document that needs to be finished until lunch).
        And no, I do not block time for urgent tasks. Unfortunately, I have more urgent tasks than time, so if I did that, I would be completely unavailable for the rest of the company. But people know this and discuss availability accordingly.

      3. Elle*

        Weird how the LW didn’t “just” say “my calendar is up to date,” they said “sure, my calendar is up to date.”

        Even if it were resigned or blasé, a coworker being mildly blasé at you (while agreeing to your request, I might point out) is not a good reason to blow up at someone.

    4. Harrowhark*

      It is so normal in the past five companies I’ve worked at that I’m confused how people are finding it brusque or off-putting.

      Me: “Do you have time to today to meet with me on X?”
      Them: “Sure. My calendar is up to date.”
      Me: “Thanks! I’ll shoot you an invite.”

      The end.

      1. Elle*

        I’m guessing some people’s industries don’t work that way and do a lot more hand-holding, but I think there are an equal number of commenters who are far too sensitive and need to examine why. If any of y’all got EAPs, I’d say: best use em. A person who has an issue with “sure, my calendar is up to date” sounds like an absolute pill to deal with.

  18. Isabel Archer*

    The day “Who brought the cheap-ass rolls?” was dethroned by “I sent her a picture of my dead mother and now we only have Folgers.”

    2. Lab Boss*

      Ooh, I would love to see a “share the weirdest phrase you’ve ever heard someone say at work” prompt here!

      mine is “I’m doing terrible, someone just shit in someone’s sleeping bag.”

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Ask that on this evening’s open thread. I bet it will get some interesting answers!

        1. CowWhisperer*

          I work in ECSE (Early Childhood Special Education) for Deaf/Hard of Hearing kids. Many of my coworkers are learning ASL – so we joke about phrases you use all the time in an ECSE class that aren’t covered in a beginning ASL class like:
          “Please don’t sneeze in my face/eyes”
          “Don’t lick the floor, the chair, your friend’s arm” (really, the direct object of this phrase is infinitely modifiable and great practice in verb modification.)
          “You peed/pooped in the potty! Good job!”

          Referring to an older kid in a self-contained class who is Deaf with multiple disabilities:
          “That’s a good way to say hi! Yes, her necklace is beautiful! I love your words!
          Dude! No, don’t lick it! (short scuffle to separate him from the necklace). No, no licking necklaces. So sorry; he hasn’t done that this year! ” (Thankfully, the person was a on-staff adult who was surprised – but was trying not to laugh.)

          I miss that kid.

      2. Unkempt Flatware*

        mine is, “Hey did you empty the pee boots?” Said when kids peed in their ski boots.

      3. Phony Genius*

        I wonder if such a thread would be funnier if the phrases are presented with or without context.

      4. Nonanon*

        I have a bunch from non-descript lab work, but my personal favorite will forever be “Hey, have you seen my drugs?”
        (One of our staff was collaborating on a specific project, so they had a delivery notification, but the compound that was delivered wasn’t ordered by us, so it wasn’t logged in our system… hence that word choice in particular)

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          Things I’ve said at work (slightly different kind of silly, but still silly):

          “Has anyone seen my nuts?” (I had brought in a bag of expensive mixed nuts and couldn’t remember where I had put them down. If it matters, I’m a woman. )

          “I’ve never seen you with pants on before!” (Said to a coworker who had always worn shorts, including in 30-degree weather.)

      5. Marshmallows*

        We were discussing Winnie the Pooh characters and who was like which character and I said our admin was like piglet… and she said why… and said, without thinking, “I don’t know, I just feel like if we put you in a honey pot on a river you’d struggle”. And then of course everyone laughed.

    3. Hashtag Destigmatize Therapy*

      I would love to hear from Bob about this. How thrown he must have been when this is where the conversation went!

  19. Tisserande d'Encre*

    Anyone else see the subject line for #2 and panic bc they say that all the time?

    2. Misquoted*

      Yep! I thought, uh oh, have I been rude all this time?
      I have a pet peeve when my colleagues don’t keep their calendars up to date, and I have to go back and forth with them about scheduling something. Or when they keep asking me if a certain time works. If it’s open in my calendar, and not unreasonably outside of my work hours, it works.

      1. Fran*

        Pet peeve- Same! Or when they mean to book the time as “Out of Office” but book it as “Free”- so are you available all day or are you gone?

        1. Elle*

          I am constantly telling our people that they need to make one OOO event with the time marked Free so that their teammates and manager can see their absence on our calendars, and a second one for just their own calendar with the time marked OOO so that when people outside our team make a meeting request, they can see that you’re OOO.

          I do not think that this is difficult, but I also don’t think that “Sure, my calendar is open” warrants a bajillion comments about “tone,” either, so what do I know.

    3. Elle*

      It’s the norm in my office/industry (at least among those of us uninterested in being doormats), but I was curious to see what Alison’s take would be.

      Very disappointed to see the many comments on LW’s tone. Seems like that’s the wrong thing to focus on, but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen low-key victim blaming in the comments.

      1. Oregonbird*

        On par with focusing on coffee after opening a work communication featuring a dead body.

  20. Fiachra*

    “Bob, can you order more of this coffee? Pam won’t order it because I was mad that she did not send me condolences, so I sent her a picture of my dead mother and now we only have Folgers.”

    She might as well have walked in and said “Bob, can you put me on a PIP please?”. It really takes away a lot of the “he said/she said” factor that passive managers usually rely on as an excuse to not intervene.

    1. Artemesia*

      This. Bob has to be a catastrophically bad manager to not have moved this to something pretty clear and dire for the people involved.

  21. Jenesis*

    #3, is there any way you can 1) be as boring as possible while listening, 2) redirect her to ask about an actual customer service function within the scope of your job (e.g. “That sounds tough. Would you like help finding books about #TOPIC?”) and then 3) make an excuse to walk away if she doesn’t say she needs that assistance?

    It’s not clear how long the “regular updates” are taking, but you shouldn’t need a sensitive reason to not want to be talked to at length about a customer’s personal problems, especially if there are other customers waiting who might get the wrong impression that you’re wasting time chit-chatting instead of doing your job.

    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Doesn’t matter the length, the OP should not be subjected to the customer using her for therapy. Could be one minute, could be five. Redirecting is great. Oh hey sounds tough, have you checked out X section, said very matter of factly.

    2. juliebulie*

      “That sounds tough. Are you looking for a book about this?” seems like the perfect thing to say, but if it were me, I’d want someone to page me to the checkout counter asap.

    3. Poppy*

      “That sounds tough. Would you like help finding books about #TOPIC?”

      Excellent response. /former bookseller

  22. Kate, short for Bob*

    Not that OP is in any way responsible for Sarah’s behaviour but re the text thing – I was always taught that condolences are written, unless you’re close enough to help. That would have been a note to a neighbour’s door, or a letter back when multi-day postal services were a thing. Phoning somebody would be to impose your own needs on them, at a time when they have a lot to process and deal with. So if someone texts you, please text them back.

    1. allathian*

      Yes, this. I realize that hand-written notes and letters have pretty much died out, but if I were grieving, I’m certain that I wouldn’t want to deal with condolences from acquaintances by phone. My closest friends and especially family who’re also grieving, sure.

      Texts are good, because they don’t require an immediate response. Or at least they shouldn’t.

    2. Myrin*

      There is already a whole thread on this above where Alison closed the replies because it’s not relevant to the letter (and just as an aside, it’s possible that OP knows that Sarah would like a call in this instance, and in fact she at least didn’t seem to have minded it).

      I realise that you’re probably just talking generally but people are surely going to see this as an invitation to start on the whole thing again so I’m just commenting to maybe ward that off. Possibly. Probably not.

    3. Percysowner*

      True, but a letter would not have stopped Sarah’s response. It would have made it worse because the letter would have taken a couple of days to get there if mailed. Even if I did write a letter, drive to Sarah’s house, put the letter on the door, it would have taken Sarah a while to find it and the whole meltdown might well have happened anyway.

    4. Morning Reading*

      This is generally true (text in response to texting) but I am curious, please advise: should one reply all? Would that make it easier for the grieving person to track who replies, or would it just be another reply all debacle?

    5. Irish Teacher.*

      Just to add though (and not to disagree with you, but just to say this to the LW) that it really doesn’t explain Sarah’s behaviour because at that point she had no idea the LW was going to phone. She could have sent a card that hadn’t arrived yet or meant to send a text and forgotten or been just about to text.

      So while this is very good advice for the future, I just wanted to add to your point that it really doesn’t make the LW in any way responsible for Sarah’s reaction, which was completely irrational, just in case the LW was feeling like she contributed to this whole mess.

    6. Ellis Bell*

      I had a similar thought, but about cards – the convention I am most familiar with is that condolences are written and they aren’t instant as it gives people a chance to process in private. But, it sounds like OP knows they have a relationship were the call would have been appreciated (because it was appreciated, when it happened). Also, given that the one person who wasn’t even included on the text was berated for not responding, I’m not sure that “if someone texts you, please text them back” would have prevented Sarah’s behaviour (not that anyone is responsible for that anyway).

    7. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Yes, when someone is grieving the last thing they want to have to do is navigate their own emotions to an acquitance on the phone. It takes emotional labor to get through a phone call at an already tough time, on top of that you have to make sure you aren’t too emotional for your coworker to deal with or having to manage your coworkers emotions.

      Don’t get me wrong, Sarah is a drama llama times 10, but phone calls are the last thing people who are grieving want. A short text message or an email if you must that is simple is much more appreciated than a phone call.

      1. Academic Anon*

        Not disagreeing with your point about replying to an text about an emotional text with a text, but I don’t think that Sarah would be too worried about being “too emotional for your coworker to deal with” considering her further texting actions.

        And the main virtue of OP not sending the condolence text is that we do have knowledge of what Sarah sent to her and Pam. Otherwise we would not have had confirmation on the statement that Sarah said to the supervisor connecting the picture text with coffee for all the gods sakes!

    8. Householder*

      I’ve always thought that the courteous thing to do is reply via the medium you’re contacted in. The OP should have just responded via text, which is a minor thing. Sarah shouldn’t have berated people with pictures of her dead mother, which is a major thing. Both can be true at the same time, and the OP certainly isn’t responsible for Sarah’s over the top response.

    9. juliebulie*

      In the office, an admin sets up a group card online that people can sign virtually with any message they wish. It usually gets sent around the time of the funeral or shortly afterwards.

    10. Crencestre*

      Letters can be lovely, but if you’re pressed for time then a sympathy card is fine. Add a couple of lines of condolence, sign it and send it or tuck it into your colleague’s office mailbox. Having a tangible proof of care and concern can go a long way when we’re hurting!

  23. Lexi Vipond*

    It’s not that any of the words in 2 are rude, but it doesn’t actually answer the question – ‘my calendar’s up to date, so invite me for any time I’m free’ would read politer to me, for that reason.

    But I don’t come from a meeting-heavy background, so it’s probably more of a non sequitur for me than others – someone here could easily be head-down busy all day with nothing in their calendar.

    1. londonedit*

      I can see why someone might take it as a bit rude. Definitely not worth flipping out over, but if I asked someone if they had time to chat, and they said ‘Sure, my calendar’s up to date’ then I might well take that as a bit brusque. It’s not the way we schedule meetings in my industry/experience – I’d expect someone to say ‘No problem – my calendar’s up to date, if you want to have a look and just pop a meeting in whenever we’re both free’, or I’d expect them to say ‘Yes, I think I’m free at 3 – I’ll double-check my calendar and let you know’ or something. ‘My calendar is up to date’ sounds – to me – a bit ‘I’m too busy and important to check, you do it’.

      1. Em*

        the whole point of having a software that displays your availability is so that people can schedule meetings without needing to discuss timing. If the meeting needs to be had, why waste someone’s time asking them to type their availability to you when you can check it without their input? The only time I’d do that is if they were fully blocked and the meeting was urgent. Otherwise, I just schedule it and include in the invite “please let me know if this time is inconvenient and I will reschedule.” There’s a “decline and propose new time” button for a reason! Use the software to your advantage!
        tldr: “sure, my calendar is up to date” is an extremely normal reply.

        3. BellaStella*

          completely agree. also the comment above about the genders of the people involved is intriguing as I wonder if that makes this more of an issue?

        4. smirkette*

          100% this. So many times people would ask for my help, but then make me check calendars and schedule. Sometimes it’s people truly not knowing how to check, but I’ve also had the misfortune of colleagues who think it’s somehow demeaning/junior to send out a calendar invitation.

      2. Chriama*

        > ‘My calendar is up to date’ sounds – to me – a bit ‘I’m too busy and important to check, you do it’.

        In this case it was apparently not just a meeting between OP and her coworker though, and the coworker was the one requesting the meeting. OP suggesting a time she’s available, when she doesn’t even know who else needs to be in the meeting, is not actually very helpful.

        Also note that the coworker was upset that OP didn’t coordinate and schedule the meeting. That has nothing to do with being too “busy and important” to offer information about her own availability.

      3. Harrowhark*

        “…or I’d expect them to say ‘Yes, I think I’m free at 3 – I’ll double-check my calendar and let you know’…”

        Nope, nope, nope. Stopping the flow of your work to check if the spot you think you remember as being open is actually open is a huge waste of time, especially since OP doesn’t know who else might need to be in the meeting and whether or not *they* are available at 3:00 PM today.

        “Sure; my calendar is up to date,” is all the co-worker needs to know.

        It answers three things:

        1. OP is agreeing to meet.
        2. OP is the right person for [topic of meeting].
        3. When OP is available to meet.

        Co-worker is now free to sally forth and schedule a meeting at a time that works for all interested parties.

      4. Elle*

        But… I *am* too busy to tell you my free times. Because Outlook does it for you.

        If you make a request (can we have a meeting?”), it’s your responsibility to follow through on doing it. You don’t get to just message someone and add it as a task for THEM. This is literally why we use shared calendars and similar productivity-enhancing technology.

      5. DE*

        The changes in language you are suggesting are really subtle. I think people who would be offended by one but aren’t the other are expecting a level of precision from other people that isn’t realistic.

    2. Chriama*

      Ok, but the coworker’s response was anger that OP wasn’t the one to schedule the meeting. That sounds like he understood the meaning and just didn’t like it.

      It’s also pretty exasperating for me to see an OP describe a situation where they used a pretty common phrase (even if it’s not common in your specific place of work, it is common in enough work environments that we can give OP the benefit of the doubt that it’s normal in hers) and then be told “oh, maybe this unreasonably rude response is because you were *sightly* brusque instead of warmly effusive.” It’s fine to analyze if there was a way to do things better, but unreasonable people are going to be unreasonable. Nothing about what OP said warranted the response they got, and some of the comments on this page honestly read pretty victim-blamey.

      1. Elle*

        I’m glad it’s not just me that thinks a lot of these comments are low key victim blaming. We’re just not gonna talk about WTF that guy’s problem was? We’re gonna keep talking about LW’s tone?

        I’d be so annoyed and depressed if I’d written in with that. Frankly, I’m annoyed and depressed just seeing the response.

      2. biobotb*

        Exactly! People are devising ways the phrase could be misunderstood while ignoring the fact that the coworker understood it just fine. That wasn’t the problem.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      Yes, this is a thing in a meeting-heavy cultures.

      As for being “head-down busy all day with nothing in their calendar” then that’s on that person. If I have something I absolutely need to get done and don’t want to be bothered until I get it done, I can block out that time on my calendar. People then know not to send a meeting request during that time. I think Outlook even pops up a warning saying they’re not available.

    4. Artemesia*

      why is everyone ignoring that the OP said ‘SURE’ at the head of their response as in Yes I can meet so pick a time.’

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Because it’s the internet and people feel they have a right to be judgey about other people without getting all the facts right just so that they can be outraged.

        1. Oregonbird*

          Other people, or the woman in the situation?

          We are currently being informed in every media sphere that the correct term is ‘pregnant persons.’ The push to bury sexism continues.

    5. Elle*

      This is very industry- and workplace-dependent. If one of my reports were asking coworkers to tell them what times they had free, I’d make very clear they need to check their calendars and take responsibility for setting up the meeting. That kind of back-and-forth is unnecessary if you’re using Outlook- it’s the entire point of it. Asking your coworkers to do a task that is already handled by a program we literally all use is disrespectful of their time.

  24. Turingtested*

    LW #3, I managed retail/food service for a decade and was always happy to take over those uncomfortable customer interactions. (Generally I’d keep an eye out and always find something for staff to do off the floor.) If you have a manager or supervisor you trust please talk to them.

    No matter how reasonable or polite you are in trying to redirect the (unwanted and therefore inappropriate) conversation, there’s a good chance the customer will take it as you being rude and complain. It’s not fair but please protect yourself.

  25. Marlo*

    The situation in #1 sounds like a mess, but I did want to add that Folgers coffee is hardly second class. After all, the customers at Tavern on the Green couldn’t tell the difference between Folgers and the fine coffee they normally serve.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Folgers can be punitive. (My father-in-law drinks black, watered down Folgers and the aroma is bitter and dank.) My company wouldn’t stoop so low (we order Green Mountain by the pallet), but ExToxicJob did. Ugh.

    4. juliebulie*

      For years I joked about various missing things being replaced by Folger’s Crystals.

    5. Artemesia*

      I experimented with good blends and lots of single bean coffees and I can assure you they are recognizably better than Folgers. I would assume that TOG was serving a not that great ‘fine’ coffee if people really couldn’t tell the difference.

    6. goddessoftransitory*

      I was always waiting for one of the tricked customers to jump to their feet and start yelling.

      1. Polly Hedron*

        I did too. I would have loved that. But then I realized those customers all got left out of the commercial.

  26. Percysowner*

    Wow, Sarah. Even if Pam hadn’t been left off the text chain, Sarah had no reason to react like this. It sounds like the text came through after hours. Some people won’t read texts from work after X and before Y. Unless you are a manager, who might want to know if someone is texting that they are too ill to come in the next day, all work communications can be left until morning. Also, Pam had every right to be offended. Look, when I was 11 my mom had a heart attack and died before the ambulance got there. It’s been 60 years, so I’m over it mostly, and I don’t get triggered easily, but suddenly getting a text with a dead mother in it would bring back memories that I really don’t need to resurface, especially if I were at or going to work.

    It does sound like Sarah may be a “missing step”. Perhaps, Pam decided that she has no reason to account for Sarah’s particular needs. Perhaps, the supply place was out of Green Mountain. Perhaps they haven’t run out of Folgers and don’t need to order new coffee. Perhaps, Pam was unsettled by the picture so special orders slipped her mind. Sarah is grieving and that is hard, but sending that picture was pretty bad and if Pam retaliated by not ordering Green Mountain, then it was minor retaliation. It doesn’t sound like Pam is refusing to work with Sarah, or impeding Sarah from doing her job, she just didn’t get the “right” coffee for Sarah.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        It sounds like there is a lot more going on and Pam is not so innocent. OP mentioned in another thread that Pam purposefully excluded Sarah, and got mad when OP tried to. Basically the office had a tradition of decorating peoples desks for their birthdays and Pam was the one to do that. She didn’t decorate Sarah’s desk so OP did so she wouldn’t be left out. Pam saw and threw a fit and made the OP take everything down.

  28. Nodramalama*

    Huh maybe it’s regional but I’ve never had someone respond to me asking if they’re free for a meeting with “my calendar is up to date”.

    I agree it’s not rude and CERTAINLY the response was not warranted but it does seem a little brusque? But I also instinctively lean towards adding fluff so maybe it’s just me.

    1. Angstrom*

      My usual response to a meeting request is “My calendar is up to date, pick a time that works for you.” Other folks in my office use something similar, so it’s understood if the second part is omitted.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        This is where I landed. “My calendar is up to date” is shorthand for a much longer sentence: “My calendar is up to date, so why don’t you take a look at it, compare it to your calendar, pick a time when we are both available for the amount of time you require, and then send me a meeting invite, and make sure to invite whoever else you think needs to be there, and then when I get your meeting invite, I’ll be sure to accept it.”

        I mean, if you want/need the meeting, surely you have more information about your own schedule, the agenda you want to discuss, how long you think it will take to conduct this meeting, and who else to invite, as LW pointed out.

        But I think a lot of this goes back to the days of paper calendars when they sat on our desk and it would be considered rude to go over to someone’s desk and peruse their schedule. I have a sense this is where this over-the-top coworker is coming from. They were waiting for LW to suggest a date/time and are not aware that office practices around scheduling have changed because everyone has an electronic calendar now.

        1. my $.02*

          I was just coming here to say this. I make sure to keep my calendar up to date so I don’t have to think about it in the moment.

    2. Boof*

      It sounds like the person was incensed that the LW didn’t throw themselves into arranging everything themselves, and while I personally feel this phrase can be a bit overused here, I think it applies to this situation; is LW feminine, and the person who is flipping out masculine? Because this smells like one of those situations where someone has an unreasonable expectation that LW ought to be doing the extra work of scheduling when usually either the one asking for the meeting or the one who is lower on an org hierarchy does it. (and even then, flipping out if someone who should jump to do it isn’t right, you just respond with “great so is mine, could you please pick out a time this afternoon and send the invite” )

    3. Siege*

      I think the phrasing is a red herring, since the actual issue is that the person who contacted the LW pretty clearly wanted them to arrange a meeting with an unknown agenda, unknown timeframe, and unknown list of invitees, and got mad when they didn’t proactively set up the Meeting Of Mystery. As someone else noted, it could be gender dynamics, it could be status dynamics, but in any case, the language used isn’t actually the problem, and LW would, in my opinion, benefit from not focusing on that part of it; claiming it was rude was the excuse the other person used to throw a hissy fit.

    4. Elle*

      As someone who also used to default to adding a lot of fluff and has trained myself out of it, I would really recommend reflecting on why you do that, how much energy it costs you, and what kind of value it’s adding to your communications. You know best what your own situation is, but I’ve moved to a more neutral, to-the-point tone, and I find that my colleagues take my words more seriously than they once did. I think many would find it brusque, but my thinking is that my coworkers will see me use that “brusque” tone in situations where it’s warranted but also be far more relaxed in situations where THAT is appropriate, and realize that I’m not a jerk, I’m trying to keep things moving.

      1. Angstrom*

        Exactly. Fluff content is inversely proportional to urgency and/or importance.

        Shifting tone to fit the situation is part of effective communication.

        1. Butterfly Counter*

          Fluff can be useful in a lot of work.

          But it’s also important to note who is expected to expend the energy of fluff. And that it’s almost always those with historically less power and less reserves to give the fluff. So someone taking that energy back shouldn’t be scolded when their response was both friendly and professional just because they didn’t do the performative obsequiousness.

    5. New Jack Karyn*

      It wasn’t “my calendar is up to date”.

      It was “Sure–my calendar is up to date.” One word, different tone.

  29. RVA Cat*

    OP3, my heart goes out to you, her and her son. While this may be more for your manager to have this conversation with her, someone needs to shut down the oversharing of such details because not only is she stressing you out, she’s violating his privacy. Maybe gently redirect her to books that would interest him?

  30. HonorBox*

    OP4 – I think you should do both of the following:
    First, email your boss directly. Summarize the conversation you had under the guise of ensuring that you have understood correctly. Upon getting a reply, have a conversation with your grandboss. Explain the conversation you and your boss had. Let them know that you’re open to directing people to your boss for things but want to know how they’d like you to best handle requests. Do they want you to forward things to your boss? Direct people to your boss with those requests, thus getting you out of the middle?

    If your grandboss is a good manager, they’ll probably help you work through any possible issues. I’d also strongly recommend that you mention that you’re worried about potential retaliation, especially in light of how your boss approached the survey results, the conversation with grandboss and the conversation with you.

    And absolutely be on the lookout for something elsewhere in case this goes terribly sideways.

  31. That Crazy Cat Lady*

    Re: #1

    I don’t want to bash someone who just lost their mom, but Sarah intentionally left Pam off of the text about her mom’s passing, and then got upset and spiteful when Pam did not offer condolences when she presumably had no way of even knowing what happened? That seems like a set-up just to make someone look awful.

    1. Hyaline*

      I suppose it’s possible the exclusion was an accident but yes, entirely unfair of Sarah either way.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        OP 1 has stated in another thread that Sarah never includes Pam in text threads. So yes it was intentional.

  32. Ex-prof*

    1. LW is an incredibly tolerant person. I would have been Pamming it up after having been sent that pic.

  33. FormerLibrarian*

    I sometimes soften “my Outlook calendar is up to date” by adding “please take a look and see if there’s a day and time that works for you and the rest of your team.”

    1. HonorBox*

      I’ve seen others suggest that adding what you’ve added is more than necessary, but I don’t think an additional three or four seconds, when it makes the message both softer and more direct, is too much. “Please take a look and see…” as you’ve said or even “Go ahead and pick a time that works” makes it much more clear and less brusque.

    2. biobotb*

      Except that wouldn’t have prevented the coworker from flipping out. Their main objection was that LW didn’t schedule the meeting, which had nothing to do with how much or little they softened their phrasing.

  34. Hyaline*

    I’m fascinated by the debate over whether LW1 mis-stepped by phoning instead of responding to the text but I think buried in that debate is that many people have come to expect instant responses to their messages—even if Sarah had gotten a text from LW the next day she would have been upset, it seems. And though this is somewhat off topic to the question, I think it’s kinda worth considering that Sarah’s expectations are driving the bus here—expecting a text, expecting the coffee, expecting certain responses to her bizarre behavior with her boss—and that her expectations cross from “common but maybe unfair” with respect to instant response to texts to “unreasonable and bizarre” and LW really shouldn’t feel responsible for or to any of these expectations.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      FWIW, I rarely respond immediately to emails or text messages for this very reason. People seem to think that we are available 24/7 thanks to cell phones and thus should respond immediately to each and every communication.

      I do my best to quash that expectation. I respond when I’m ready to respond (i.e., have had a chance to think about it, etc.). I certainly would not be ready to respond to news like this immediately.

      Also, some people are more comfortable or better communicating in one medium than another. Tone is especially difficult to communicate in text or email, so it made sense to me that LW wanted to wait and make an actual phone call.

      1. londonedit*

        I agree, but I do think when someone texts to say that a close relative has died, that does warrant a response of some sort as soon as you’re able. If it was me, I’d have sent a quick ‘Oh I’m so sorry to hear that. Take care – I’ll give you a ring tomorrow, if that’s OK with you?’ And then followed up with a proper phone call. Otherwise it can be easy to feel like the person isn’t bothering to respond – which I don’t care about if it’s an everyday topic that doesn’t really warrant an instant response, but which I think would sting if it was something like the death of a relative. That’s not to say Sarah behaved appropriately, because she absolutely didn’t. But I do think the OP could have responded briefly just so Sarah knew she’d seen the news and she knew to expect a call.

        1. Percysowner*

          That means you actually look at your texts immediately when they come in. I stop checking around bed time, so I would have missed it if it came in then. Also, I don’t get banners on messages, so I only see them when I actually check my messages. This could easily have not been seen until morning. Plus Sarah didn’t account for phone dying, or another person having their own emergency so that they had more important things to do than send condolences to her.

          1. Peanut Hamper*

            This exactly. My phone goes into do-not-disturb mode at 20:00 hours, because my brain needs a break.

          2. londonedit*

            I didn’t read anything in the letter to suggest that the text from Sarah came in late at night – just that the OP chose not to respond by text because they think it’s impersonal. I certainly don’t look at my phone all the time, and it’s always on silent, but I check it before I go to bed so unless it was after 10pm then yep I’ll respond if you text me to say your mum has just died.

          3. A. Wilson*

            Yes, but in this case we know that the OP did see the message soon after it was sent, so all these “what if” scenarios don’t really apply.

            While Sarah’s behavior here was atrocious and it was absolutely unreasonable for her to expect immediate responses, I also think it’s rather unkind of OP not to just take 10 seconds to respond since they did happen to see it right away. Sure, text messages aren’t OP’s preferred method of communication, but it’s the method preferred by the grieving person in need of support, so why not meet them where they’re at?

            1. Peanut Hamper*

              So, Sarah text messages OP, and OP messages back, and then Sarah messages back, and then….lather, rinse, repeat.

              Nope. We have a choice about when we respond to text messages. That’s the entire point of a text message.

              1. A. Wilson*

                Yes, we have a choice when to respond. And in my opinion, it’s an inconsiderate choice not to respond as soon as you’re able when it comes to a death.

                It’s understandable if the OP hadn’t seen the message or didn’t have the emotional bandwidth to respond. But in this case, the OP said they only reason they didn’t respond was because of their own personal communication preference. Which, that’s fine if they want to rigidly stick to their preferences and never make any exceptions, but I think that’s inconsiderate in the case of a loss. It would take seconds to text back “Sorry for your loss. I can call you tomorrow if you’d like.”

                If Sarah texts back more than a “thank you,” then sure, don’t engage further. But there’s no indication that would happen, and it’s pure speculation to think it would turn into a back and forth.

            2. Observer*

              Yes, but in this case we know that the OP did see the message soon after it was sent, so all these “what if” scenarios don’t really apply.

              Yes, but we know that Sarah would not have cared either way.

              And while I do disagree with the LW, that doesn’t make them “unkind” or anything like that. Nor does it many any sort of sense for the Sarah to respond in the way she did. When you add if to the fact that she also sent this to Pam – who never got the text to start with, I think any sort of focus on what the LW or did not do is utterly besides the point.

              I think that this is important, because the LW is already cutting Sarah more slack than she deserves, and normalizing some really problematic behavior. So I think it’s a real problem to sidetrack the conversation from there.

              This is a bad workplace. Let’s not mimize this by side tracking the dscussion to the LW’s less than theoretically perfect response.

            3. biobotb*

              Well they do kind of apply, because Sarah didn’t know why LW didn’t respond immediately, and so jumping to conclusions about being ignored wasn’t warranted. (It turns out she was right, but she didn’t know that and completely over-reacted.)

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          On the other hand, I could easily see somebody waiting to respond to that because they wanted time to think about what to say in order to avoid saying something insensitive.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          But when you’re able is going to differ wildly from person to person. What if you don’t look at your phone all evening? Or the news triggers your own feelings of grief over something similar? That doesn’t make you less polite than the unaffected person who’s glued to the phone. I’m with you on doing what you’re able, but on the other side you can’t expect a particular or prompt response to a text. If you need immediate contact with someone, that’s a phone call with someone who’s close to you.

    2. 34avemovieguy*

      I think it is fair of Sarah to expect an answer to a message about her mother dying. It is really not hard to send a message of condolences. Sure in a vacuum expecting anything of anyone can be seen as entitled, but ignoring/dismissing/filing away for later a message about a personal tragedy is a bit unkind. Even if you intend to call them the next day. If there’s anything that OP can reflect on, it’s that silently thinking that she would call Sarah the next day was not productive for her own relationship to Sarah or that helpful to someone in a moment of grief. I get that OP thinks texting is too informal or impersonal but it’s been around for decades. It’s the majority of people’s preferred method of communication, and it’s not unreasonable for someone to see everyone reply in a group and then notice the one person who didn’t.

      I’m not saying Sarah was right for her outburst and if she were writing in I would tell her not to take things personally.

      1. Not a lawyer butt*

        Expecting an answer is fair, but expecting it immediately isn’t. I’m not glued to my phone and you do not have any more right to my time than I do to yours, dead relative or no.

        In this case we know the letter writer saw the message early on, but it sounds like this would also have happened if LW hadn’t seen the message at all.

      2. Hyaline*

        Expecting acknowledgement of the loss is absolutely fair, but IMO Sarah’s terms of that acknowledgement were not fair–she set a very short deadline. Yes, we know OP saw the text and chose not to respond and we can debate if that was a good choice, but setting an expectation that someone will respond within a not-terribly-reasonable timeframe is, well, setting yourself up to get pissed off that they didn’t. Which is exactly what appears to have happened.

        1. 34avemovieguy*

          fair enough, but Sarah isn’t writing in so we can’t advise her or help her.

  35. mango chiffon*

    I know it’s not the point of LW1, but personally I don’t know if I’d be able to handle a phone call condolence if a parent died. When my grandfather passed (international, so I never got to see him), I could barely handle messaging the coworkers close to me without breaking down. Heck I’m tearing up now typing this and it’s been several years. I know it may seem impersonal, but I would encourage LW1 to re-think their views on texting over calling. Calling may seem more personal, but it does put the recipient on the spot, especially in a vulnerable time

  36. ZSD*

    #2 Honestly, I do always find it a bit rude when people reply, “My calendar is up to date.” I mean, I wouldn’t overreact the way your co-worker did, but why not respond, “Sure, I’m available between 3 and 4:30 PM today”?
    I always feel presumptuous looking at other people’s calendars; it seems less intrusive to ask people when they’re available.

    1. Indolent Libertine*

      But isn’t “My calendar is up to date” an explicit invitation for you to look? The person you’re asking knows nothing yet about your availability, so if they respond with “I’m available between 10 and 12” there’s every chance that you’re not, and no progress has been made, whereas saying “my calendar is up to date” means “Look at my calendar and pick any time on it that’s open” and presto, a time is set that works for everyone.

      1. ZSD*

        Yes, that’s an invitation to look, but I always feel that the subtext is, “Why didn’t you just look at my calendar?” I guess it comes across as impatient to me. You could also say, “I’m available between 3:00 and 4:30 today, but if that doesn’t work for you, feel free to look at my calendar and find a time that works for us both.” It’s less cold and removes any implication that the person should have already looked at your calendar.

        1. r.*

          In many companies that is because you *should* have looked at their calendar first.

          “I’m available between 3:00 and 4:30 today, but if that doesn’t work for you, feel free to look at my calendar and find a time that works for us both.” adds nothing of value that could not have been obtained by looking at the calendar and sending an invite at a free time, an activity that would need to occur anyway. But it costs the person writing that reply

          1) the time required for the communication itself
          2) the time to get back and into focus for what other things they were doing. Which may be considerable. To you it may only be a quick 2 minute message exchange, but to people performing focus work it’ll mean they have to spend significant time (potentially hours) to reason themselves back into the mindstate you pulled them out off.

          If people have maintained calendars you’re literally wasting other people’s times not understanding that one of the points of having them is so you can get that information without having to send them a message. In such cultures a maintained calendar is *a communication to you*, and you’re being rude by disregarding what they already told you and make them waste time on telling it to you again.

          You may think you’re polite by asking first, but have you considered the possibility that’d even be more polite not to make other people’s work days — which can be quite full, and unless their job is being someone like a PA/EA is focused on other areas than meeting scheduling — longer than they have to be?

        2. Ellis Bell*

          I think that your framing on this isn’t helping you and wraps things up into a no win situation. If you look without asking them, you’re framing that as presumption on your part, and if they expressly invite you to look, you’re considering that as snark about not already looking? I really doubt people are that keen to be so negative about you! It’s actually a lot less fraught than you think; if you scheduled something on their calendar without invitation, they’ll see that as an enquiry rather than a presumption and just say whether they can make the time or not. If they invite you to look at their calendar and chose a time, they probably just want to give you the option of choosing the best time for you; they’re saying that any free space on the calendar will probably work so choose a good time for you.

    2. Angstrom*

      I often get meeting requests when I’m away from my desk, and without looking at my calendar I can’t say when I’m available.

    3. Sneaky Squirrel*

      I get the “my calendar is up to date” though. Because I say “sure I’m available from 3-4:30” and now you go “oh but that doesn’t work for me, how about 2-3” and now it’s a whole song and dance. The “my calendar is up to date” is an invitation to look and pick what’s not blocked off.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        Yes, I think the people finding it brusque (some of whom are forgetting about the “sure” that started the sentence) are possibly in jobs that aren’t very meeting-heavy. People whose jobs involve scheduling lots of meetings seem not to have a problem with that phrasing, which does seem designed to be more efficient and avoid the scheduling dance that you’re talking about.

        1. Angstrom*

          Good point. Folks with full calendars get tired of playing the “When are you free?” game, and would much rather do it all electronically.
          I do appreciate it when someone makes the effort to say “Hey, are you free tomorrow afternoon to talk about X?” before scheduling something, but I’m not offended if they just schedule in an open spot without talking to me.

    4. Observer*

      but why not respond, “Sure, I’m available between 3 and 4:30 PM today”?

      Because the LW doesn’t know who else is needs to be there, nor how long they need, etc. And it’s also often an added task, which is really on the other person to take. Given that the requester actually *expected the LW to setup the meeting* this is clearly not about the LW not being witnhin the norms of office politeness.

      I always feel presumptuous looking at other people’s calendars; it seems less intrusive to ask people when they’re available

      Which is fine when you don’t know what their prefence is. When someone tells you to look at their schedule, it is *far more* presumptuous to insist that they tell you when they are available than followung their lead and checking their schedule.

    5. RemoteWorkEmilyPost*

      The literal reason the calendars are viewable by others is so that you can look, though. It’s designed to work that way, specifically to reduce the time-wasting back-and-forth of:

      “Sure, let me look… I’m free from X to Y”
      “Hm, that doesn’t work for me, How about A to B?”
      “No, but I could do C to D”
      “Let me go check with Joe if he’s free from C to D…”
      and on and on and on.

      I promise you, you are doing your coworkers a service by looking at their availability and scheduling accordingly; it is far more presumptuous to expect them to interrupt what they are doing to figure this out live.

    6. Elle*

      If people are repeatedly saying this to you, this is a signal that in your industry it is 100% your responsibility to set up the meeting at a time that works for everyone, according to their calendar. There is a Scheduling Assistant tab in the new meeting window in Outlook which automatically compares all the listed participants’ calendars and shows you their common availability.

      If I had a report who was continuing to receive this response and hadn’t adjusted the way they handled meetings, but was continuing to think this was rude or impatient, I would have a gentle but firm discussion with them about respecting others’ time and office norms. Asking your coworkers to tell you their free times when Outlook already has a feature that does that reads as out-of-touch and borderline high-maintenance in my industry- not to mention disrespectful of others’ time.

    7. New Jack Karyn*

      “I always feel presumptuous looking at other people’s calendars; it seems less intrusive to ask people when they’re available.”

      But that’s the whole point of the calendar! You asking me for a time is more of an intrusion; it’s making me do the work. You want the meeting, you set it up. Besides, if I’ve been away from my desk, someone may have popped a meeting in at 3:30 that I haven’t noticed yet.

      And she didn’t say “My calendar is up to date,” she said “Sure–my calendar is up to date.” Much different feel.

    8. AmuseBouchee*

      Literally this is why outlook shared calenders exist in the workplace. She was not rude.

  37. Casual Observer*

    My dad passed away recently and he was in hospice care for his final days. I cannot imagine sending a picture of him at his most vulnerable to my co-workers and berating them for not sending me their condolences. Sarah sounds unhinged. I understand grief can make people act in ways that aren’t typical, but you don’t go from being a rational, level-headed person to sending pictures of dead people simply because you are grieving.

    My brother sent me a photo of my dad right after he passed because I wasn’t able to be with him, and even though I knew he was sending it, I still found the image upsetting. I cannot imagine receiving an unsolicited photo. I don’t blame Pam at all for not liking Sarah, and Sarah is luck that the worst thing Pam’s done is not order her favourite coffee. Unreal.

    1. Ellis Bell*

      OP would know if this kind of behaviour predates Sarah’s grief, but even if it can be laid at grief’s door… it’s too inappropriate and appalling to excuse. I agree with your view that this is likely to be a wider issue of her character, and Alison’s assessment that the environment in this office has gotten toxic and completely free of boundaries because of hands off management.

    2. Beth*

      There’s no actual reason to believe that the absence of coffee is Pam trying to “punish” Sarah. That’s Sarah’s interpretation, and we already know she’s not exactly reliable.

  38. Having a Scrummy Week*

    #4. Just need to say, I think having a boss who feels threatened by you is one of the trickiest work situations you can encounter. I have been there a few times as a high performer (I even got FIRED once because my boss was so insecure).

    Like others have said, I would confirm these changes in writing from your manager. This is a great argument for regular skip-level meetings.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      100%. I was also fired by a boss who found me threatening because I was good at my job and everybody liked me and customers came in asking for me. Fortunately, this was retail, and so had no real impact on my career. But it still completely sucked in the moment.

  39. We’re Six*

    Letter 1: I’m sorry but I think everyone on that team, including maybe Bob, needs to be fired probably. Harsh (especially for Sarah who just lost her mom)? Yes. But good god. This is not an office/team/workplace. It’s a middle school. Except that even middle schoolers usually have enough sense to not text photos of dead relatives to each other even after drinking (!), or for any of this other drama to keep going on like this.

    If I were Bob, I’d be calling a meeting with Sarah and Pam to inform them they’re being childish idiots, then banning the whole team from texting each other outside of work reasons/hours, or on non-work devices. Normally I don’t share the AAM readership’s knee jerk feelings of “no non-work conversations with coworkers ever!!!” but this letter is so ridiculous that I just can’t with any of the people involved, including the letter writer.

    1. Seashell*

      The post above from OP#1 sounds like there is very middle school-like behavior involving not decorating Sarah’s desk for her birthdays because Pam was mad at Sarah too. Major mess all around.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      Honestly, I don’t think there is any evidence that anybody on the team other than Pam and Sarah, and possibly Bob, did anything wrong. The LW and the rest of the team who replied to the text message actually seem to be handling a very difficult situation pretty sensitively.

      1. EC*

        What did Pam do wrong? She was harassed by Sarah, and we don’t have any evidence that Sarah was right about the coffee order. As written Sarah is the only person who did anything wrong.

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          In the comments, LW says that (a while back) Pam would not allow Sarah’s desk to be decorated for her birthday, when doing so was an office norm. That was a big jerk move.

          It doesn’t hold a candle to what Sarah did.

          1. SusieQQ*

            I know this is subtle, but to me it makes a difference. If I understood the comment correctly, it’s not that she wouldn’t allow Sarah’s desk to be decorated, it’s that she wouldn’t allow Sarah’s desk to be decorated _with items she bought with her personal funds_.

            1. New Jack Karyn*

              I get that, but–either the reusable decorations are for the office, or they’re not. If someone is going to pick and choose who gets to have their birthday celebrated based on what kind of grudge they’re holding, then maybe the decorations shouldn’t be used at all.

              Given Sarah’s behavior in this instance, it’s likely that some earlier actions of hers warranted Pam’s ill will. But that should have been dealt with by the manager, if it has escalated that far.

              And we’re back to the place being toxic, due to poor management.

    3. The Unionizer Bunny*

      If I were Bob, I’d be calling a meeting with Sarah and Pam to inform them they’re being childish idiots, then banning the whole team from texting each other outside of work reasons/hours, or on non-work devices.

      Bob only has the authority delegated to him from the company, and even the CEO doesn’t have any authority to prevent employees from texting each other outside of work reasons/hours on non-work devices. Have you actually encountered a boss prohibiting teams from “texting each other on non-work devices”? I’m curious about the workplace environment you operate in if that’s normalized rulemaking there.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        And banning the whole team from doing something because…one person used it inappropriately, sounds over the top to me. If I were one of the other members of the team, who possibly didn’t even know about the picture Sarah sent Pam and the LW, I’d firstly be wondering what on earth was going on and secondly, would be considering looking for another job because it would seem like a bizarre level of micromanaging. (Though honestly, I might be considering looking for another job from putting up with Sarah and Pam anyway.)

    4. Peanut Hamper*

      I would have huge issues with any manager who called me or other workers “childish idiots” to my/their faces. That’s rude and unprofessional right there. And making rules about what employees do on their own time is a huge overreach.

      The comparison to a middle school is unfair and inaccurate.

  41. Sneaky Squirrel*

    LW1 – The title and the first sentence of this letter imply that the issue is Pam and Sarah don’t get along but nothing here reads about a feud between Pam and Sarah. What you have here is a Sarah issue. Sarah sent a text out to the team noting that her mom passed away and left off a coworker. Sarah then sent an inappropriate photo to that coworker and to LW to stir the pot. The fact that we know Sarah was likely drunk when she did this means that Sarah likely has done similar things in the past. Sarah has decided that the lack of green mountain coffee is a personal attack against her without actually confirming this is so. The answer here is to tell Sarah to knock it off. She’s allowed to be in mourning because of her mother. She’s not allowed to start a fight because people didn’t send what she feels are the proper condolences.

    1. Seashell*

      The post above from Andrew T Burke/LW1 indicates that the feud pre-dates the death of Sarah’s mother and with inappropriate behavior on both sides.

      1. Sneaky Squirrel*

        It doesn’t surprise me that there’s additional inappropriate behaviors from others/additional context that is missing. It sounds like everyone in the office knows that there is one or more drama llamas and no one is taking any ownership of telling anyone to knock it off.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      It may have been edited out or the LW may not have included all the details about the feud because they are not relevant to this particular incident.

      This latest issue is certainly a Sarah issue, but we have no idea who’s instigated what in the past.

      I also think that Alison takes the titles from the subject line of the email she gets, so if LW says they’re feuding, then we should just accept that they are feuding.

  42. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    #2 I get a feeling that the coworker was a man and OP is a woman or is in a lower role and so they coworker thinks that the op needs to schedule.

    1. Veryanon*

      Bingo. My philosophy is, if you are the one asking for the meeting, it’s up to you to schedule it, no matter if you are higher up in the organization than me.

  43. Yes Anastasia*

    I hesitate to suggest this because it’s above their pay grade too, but if your community has a well-staffed public library, it would be reasonable to refer LW3’s customer that way. Librarians are not therapists or social workers, but they can recommend reliable sources of medical information (many of which are no longer available in print) and often maintain lists of community organizations that provide mental health support.

    Alternately, if the LW or their manager feels comfortable, they could also give out the phone number to a mental health support/crisis line – if you need to say some version of “I wish you the best but I am not the right person for this conversation,” referring them elsewhere makes this message a little gentler.

  44. Wildbow*

    Re: #4 – I think a lot of ongoing problems nowadays can be traced back to a hierarchical way of thinking. Bullying (though it’s changed from yesteryear), certain types of politics, racism, sexism, etc. Some people hold onto this idea that in order for someone to rise up, another person has to be pushed down.

    And unfortunately, the actual hierarchies of business (employee, manager, upper manager, branch CEO, corporate CEO) dovetail with this.

    The behavior described by the manager in #4 makes me think of this; when someone’s very first instinct is to punch down?

  45. Observer*

    LW, I didin’t finish reading all of the comments, so I may have missed a response to this. But one thing I am kind of taken about at is how accepting you are of Sarah’s misbehavior. Yes, she’s apparently an alcoholic with little or no emotional regulaiton.

    But plesae understand that being someone who drunk dials terrible things is not just a “quirk” that needs to be accomodated. How would you react if this had been a guy who intead drunk dialed a woman at work with a proposition “Because he was drunk and emotional”? What Sarah did was no better (and arguably worse.)

    1. New Jack Karyn*

      Absolutely! It seems like a classic case of a toxic workplace warping the perceptions of reasonable people as to what’s normal and what isn’t.

      (I hope that made sense; I suspect my grammar is out of pocket)

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I have worked in places with some drama, but none of it even approaches some of the things I’ve seen here. But having worked with people, I can see how it happens. People can be downright weird at times.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Also, I think this kind of behavior happens a lot in environments where people are lacking in resources or autonomy. They will claw and scratch for any little bit of it that they can get.

      I know from experience that my department (which is managed in a way so as to minimize drama) does not really see this kind of behavior ever. Meanwhile, an adjacent department is managed ineffectively and is a basically a cage-match. I’ve been asked if I’d like a promotion to that other department and I’m always “no, not at this time”. At least not until they get a competent manager.

  47. No apples and honey 4 u*

    OP1, I really think you’re under reacting to getting sent a PICTURE OF SARAH’S DEAD MOM

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      That would totally freak me out, but OP realized that Sarah was probably drunk at that point. Which is not an excuse (but OP is being very kind through all of this), but it would definitely earn at least a temporary block from me.

      1. Angstrom*

        The fact that drunk-texting coworkers appears to be a known thing at OP’s workplace is a great example of the importance of maintaining good work/private life boundaries.

    2. Veryanon*

      Right? When is it EVER appropriate to share pictures of your dead mom? When is it even appropriate to *take* pictures of your dead mom? That whole thing is truly bizarre.

    3. goddessoftransitory*

      I mean, I don’t even know what I would do/say to that! Other than sputtering and probably calling HR.

      Sarah had no idea what she could have triggered in people with that photo.

  48. CTA*

    #1

    I know this doesn’t quite relate to the letter, but LW mentions they are “older.” I’m not sure what this means, but my mom is the type of “old” person who only turns her phone on when she needs to use it. She misses so many calls and text messages.

    I know LW writes that she saw the message, so it’s not like her phone was off. But I’m really shocked buy folks trying to ram into LW for not responding via text. Communication etiquette and preferences aside, LW didn’t deserve to treated like that by Sarah. I know a few people who would not reply right away because they want to give the grieving person space (and not distract them with a reply, even if it was a condolence). We don’t know what time of day the text was sent. We don’t know how many people were on the text chain. It sounds like maybe a lot since Pam was left off?

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Yes, this really bugged me too. People don’t have an automatic right to immediacy outside of the workplace.

    2. Meep*

      I honestly wouldn’t worry too much about it. LW acknowledged Sarah was probably drunk and definitely grieving. It sounds like it was a one-off due to grief. Was it appropriate? No. But OP seems to have let it go, which suggests it might’ve been out of character for Sarah to expect a rapid response and respond with such vitriol. Especially since things were so quickly addressed.

      1. Observer*

        LW acknowledged Sarah was probably drunk and definitely grieving. It sounds like it was a one-off due to grief.

        No, iy actually sounds like a pattern of Sarah not handling her issues in any sort of reasonable way.

        1. biobotb*

          The fact that the LW’s response to an unexpected photo of a dead person was “Ah, she’s drunk, oh well” makes me soooo curious as to what other shenanigans Sarah has gotten up to.

    3. Manic Sunday*

      I don’t think the LW deserved ANYTHING that happened, but since Sarah isn’t the one asking for advice, I think it’s worth pointing out to the LW that their reasoning is odd. Sarah sent the news via text, so she obviously thinks it’s a good enough means of communication about her loss and not too impersonal.

      If LW had said “I didn’t respond because my phone was off / I was asleep / I didn’t see the message / I was driving / I got distracted / I was tired,” that would not be worth commenting on. “Texting is too impersonal for a discussion of grief so I won’t do it even if a freshly bereaved person texts me” is worth commenting on. This is like if LW saw a death announcement that read “no flowers, please,” and decided to send flowers because they would want flowers if they lost a loved one, or because they were raised to believe you should always send flowers no matter what. If they sent flowers because they got the news secondhand and had no idea the family didn’t want flowers, well, that kind of error is understandable and is harder to avoid.

      LW could avoid future awkward social situations with grieving people by deciding they’ll take their cues from the grieving people.

      1. Myrin*

        “Texting is too impersonal for a discussion of grief so I won’t do it even if a freshly bereaved person texts me” is worth commenting on.

        It’s really not, because it’s just something OP mentioned to give context for why she, too, didn’t reply to Sarah immediately; it has nothing to do with the meat of the letter whatsoever.

        And also, OP knows Sarah personally and, it seems like, has for a while. It’s entirely possible that their relationship is such that she knew Sarah wouldn’t mind a call (and maybe even prefer it, who knows!) and in fact, Sarah didn’t mind when OP called. It might be a worthwhile topic of discussion in general but not in response to this letter.

  49. AlwaysAsk*

    OP2, I thought that was going in a different direction and the person who said that was being called rude because they seemed annoyed someone asked for availability. I, and many people I know, have both “must keep” and “can move or skip” events on my calendar and, like most people I know, have non-work obligations that are not captured. If someone wants to schedule with me or most people I know, they need to ask for availability. It’s courteous to ask, and a reply of my calendar is up to date may seem snarky or rude depending on tone.

    1. New Jack Karyn*

      “like most people I know, have non-work obligations that are not captured”– I think this is covered by ‘up to date’. And OP said “Sure–my calendar is up to date” which is neither snarky nor rude.

      If they try to schedule (with multiple parties), and the block is an event on OP’s calendar, then they can reach out to ask if that event is in the ‘Can move or skip’ category.

    2. biobotb*

      I would hope that if you had conflicts that weren’t captured on your calendar you wouldn’t respond to meeting requests by telling people your calendar is up to date — because in your case it would be a lie. But the LW’s calendar *is* up to date, so it wasn’t rude of them to note that.

  50. Scott W*

    Re #4, I could have written this. In the end I told everyone that my boss wanted people to come to him instead of me, even though people told me that they couldn’t get ahold of him. I eventually left that job, for many reasons, including that my new boss didn’t seem to want me around.

  51. The Unionizer Bunny*

    LW4:

    Oof. It sounds like you might be a supervisor (unprotected by the NLRA), even if you take “I should not be making policy and procedure decisions” as that manager clarifying that you do not qualify under that function.

    That said, there are some protections that apply to your situation simply because non-supervisory employees are involved:

    it was inappropriate that my team came to me for group-related issues instead of just ones solely focused on our assignments

    They have the right to bring a group complaint to the attention of management. Most chain-of-command rulings have been about prohibiting workers from discussing issues with parties outside management, I don’t recall any cases about whether employers can decide which manager in their chain-of-command to approach. I can think of good reasons for them to prefer you, though, and bad reasons for your manager to want them to come to your manager directly.

    Employees are often nervous about drawing attention to themselves by complaining. If it looks like their coworkers view them as a good person to represent the group, it may invite retaliation because managers want to remove coordinators and leaders (or promote them into supervisory roles) before unions can emerge. If your team knows that you pass issues up to management as truly “group” complaints, without identifying the individual sources, they probably trust you – and may be less forthcoming if they have to approach a different boss.

    The problem here is that your manager thinks you are directing these people to come to you, when really your manager should be complaining to your team that they aren’t following a chain-of-command. They’re the ones deciding to communicate with you, after all. And they should be aware that they may have the right to do so, regardless of what your manager tells them. The problem is that informing them can be risky for you, since your manager may view it as fomenting mutiny and retaliate. Be discreet! You’ve been there for 15 years? Surely by now you must have some sense of who on your team will understand and respect your need for privacy. Explain that you could be fired if the boss finds out you said anything.

  52. Veryanon*

    #2 – a lot of people want to meet with me because of the nature of my work. I’m also aware that, as a woman, I am often expected to do the unspoken labor of setting up these meetings. So to answer your question, no, it’s not rude to respond to someone’s request for a meeting by saying “My calendar is up to date, please feel free to set up a time that works for both of us.”

    1. Boof*

      Yeah, as both a femme and someone who is now pretty high up a chain of command, I quite intentionally just direct to my calendar and do NOT try to schedule meetings unless it’s something i’m really needing to grease the wheels on. I have to do a bazillion things fast and scheduling a meeting takes enough extra time that I absolutely don’t want to take ownership of it unless I have to (and I literally do usually have other people to do that, although they’re a bit medocre at it so if I really care I do do it myself)

  53. One HR Opinion*

    #2 – I do this a lot because, I keep my calendar updated, but I know there are many people who don’t. So I’d say something like, “Sure, my calendar is up-to-date, so send me an invite.” If a coworker has a problem with that, it’s their problem, not mine :)

  54. QuinleyThorne*

    Nothing constructive to add for OP#1, just utter bewilderment, and a question: How are both of these people still here? More importantly, why are you still here? This environment sounds absolutely nightmarish.

    1. Kevin Sours*

      The only thing to add is “just keep repeating ‘Not my circus, not my monkeys'”

  55. Head sheep counter*

    With OP#1 this sounds like hell. That picture would cause me to have a major issue and that would become a major problem for the company if they didn’t deal with it appropriately (think lawsuits for emotional distress and stress leave). It is very very very far from ok and being shrugged as “drunk people do drunk things” is doing no one any service.

    I wonder if you are like a crab who’s slowly being cooked in bananas. Perhaps in your environment the etiquette over calling vs texting seems to be the pressing issue. Its not. That it seems that way says your environment has veered very far from workplace norms.

  56. Meep*

    Re #2: I bet good money, LW is a woman and their coworker is a man. I used to have male coworkers tell me when they want a meeting like I was going to schedule it for them. Nope, you want to meet, you can find a time that works for both of us.

  57. EC*

    I’m also old enough that I hate texting and don’t use it, but everything about Sarah seems so bizarre to me.

    First, I can’t imagine blasting the whole office with personal business. When my grandfather died, I told my boss because I was taking time off to go to the funeral. But, I didn’t send a group message to the lab. I don’t understand that sort of need for attention from people I’m not close to.

    Second, I don’t understand this thing some people have where if they don’t get the response they want immediately, they throw a tantrum. Someone didn’t answer a text immediately? Some people have things to do, or aren’t phone addicts.

    Third, I don’t care how drunk or how grieving someone is, sending people pictures of a dead body because they didn’t text back right away should be an immediate firing offence. That’s so far beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior.

  58. NotARealManager*

    “My outlook calendar is up to date” as a request for scheduling a meeting does feel a little rude to me. I think it just needed a few more words like “My outlook calendar is up to date so feel free to schedule something where I have an opening”. It isn’t as brusque and puts the onus on the other person to take the action.

    1. New Jack Karyn*

      You’re missing the first part; the whole quote is “Sure–my calendar is up to date.” There’s nothing rude about that.

      1. Mostly Managing*

        Letting someone know your calendar is up to date is… reasonable?

        I have an email right now telling me (and a bunch of other people in my role) to get our calendars up to date by X time so that a training session can be scheduled.

        I have told my department chair “Sure I’m free to meet on Thursday, I know you are busier than I am so why don’t you pick a time and I’ll make it work.”

        Telling someone your calendar is up to date when they are the one who want to meet is standard in my world.

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          Exactly! I feel like I’m taking crazy pills, with people saying that it’s rude.

    2. Rooby*

      Yeah it’s a bit of a brush off. Like if someone says, “can you call me later?” and you say, “you have a phone book!” (This fake conversation takes place in 1991.)

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        It does give rise to the question: Why isn’t the asker doing the calling? Why are they asking someone else to call them?

      2. Jennifer Strange*

        Except the person didn’t ask “Can you schedule a meeting”, they asked “Do you have time to meet today”. The LW responded appropriately.

      3. Chriama*

        Nope, it’s more like someone saying “can I call you later”, and you saying “SURE, my number hasn’t changed”.

  59. Manic Sunday*

    LW1, you are not the villain in this story, but next time someone texts you news that warrants condolences … just text them back. Your opinion that texting is too impersonal should not matter in a situation where you are not the bereaved person. You should follow the bereaved person’s lead when it comes to communicating about their loss. The fact that they are notifying you via text indicates *they* do not view texting as too impersonal for the subject at hand. They might even prefer a text reply; it allows them space to be upset without having to worry how they sound over the phone. A brief “I’m sorry for your loss. I’ll call you tomorrow,” is all you have to do.

    I blame Sarah for all her bad behavior, but I don’t blame her for feeling hurt that you didn’t text her back.

    1. Velociraptor Attack*

      I agreed with the idea that Sarah established how she wanted to be contacted and OP should have followed that lead. I had severe complications when I had my kid and used text to tell close friends hey, they’re in the NICU and things could go either way; I’m stable but not allowed to be discharged; that’s all I know. I didn’t want to talk to anyone; text was the absolute most I could handle, and even that varied minute to minute, so it was perfect because I was able to control when I read anything.

      Clearly, there’s so much going on with Sarah, considering she fired this same text off to Pam, who hadn’t gotten the initial text, so this is more of a thought for the future with other people that are going to respond to things more rationally.

    2. Oregonbird*

      If a coworker texted me about their private life, up to and including death, the response from me would be crickets. Not my business. If they retaliated, their manager and HR would handle it, because no one’s sense of personal entitlement gets to intersect with my paid employment.

  60. Resentful Oreos*

    LW1: I am NOT excusing Sarah’s behavior at all. But I don’t think it’s too “impersonal” to text back an “I’m sorry for your loss” to someone who has texted you about the loss of someone close to them. My friends and I are all “getting up in years” as the saying goes, and we text All The Time. In fact, it’s kind of a touchstone for those of us who are single and live alone – if I or my other single bestie texts “good morning! How are you?”, we know the other one is OK.

    I die a little inside when I hear “I’m older/old-fashioned so I don’t do X.” Or, conversely, “I am young so I don’t do Y.” You *can* reply with a condolence text and then stop by for a more personal chat or send a card. As Manic Sunday said upstream, it’s what the bereaved person wants.

    That said…the Sarah and Pam feud is bananacrackers, and sending a picture of your dead mom – or even dying mom – to *coworkers* is just O_o. That’s very much a no-no. I’d have more sympathy for Sarah if she was normally pleasant but snapped due to grief, and apologized later. But it seems she and Pam have a habit of behaving badly. And Bob is doing head in the sand management, which is worse than no management at all. Whether he thinks “I won’t get involved in feeeeemale drama” or it’s beneath him because it’s personal or whatever, he needs to get over that and tell Sarah and Pam to please behave professionally.

    The thing with office feuds like this is that they make life actively unpleasant for their coworkers. I have no interest in being caught in that kind of crossfire. Both Sarah and Pam need to knock it off. (And if Sarah really has to have a special brand of coffee, she can buy it, if Pam won’t. Maybe Pam drinks tea.)

  61. EC*

    I used to work as a cashier in high school and we were required by our boss to greet everyone with “How are you today?”. Most people understood that this was a required formality, and said “fine”. I would dread the occasional person who took this as an invitation to dump on a teenager working for minimum wage who wasn’t allowed to leave or ask them to stop. There’s an implied threat in these interactions because the customer can get the worker in trouble if they feel like it.

    “Fine” is the one and only correct response to a customer service person asking how you are. I have gone to a restaurant while waiting to hear if a pet had cancer, I said “fine” when the waiter asked how I was doing. When I went to get coffee on the way to my grandfather’s funeral, I said “fine” when the barista asked how I was. They were doing a job, they weren’t my friend or my therapist, and they weren’t being paid to deal with me abusing my position.

  62. Heqit*

    “I sent her a picture of my dead mother and now we only have Folgers” is such an amazing sentence it deserves to be immortalized and added to the Official AAM Lore. I can see myself quoting this for years to come.

  63. AmuseBouchee*

    You know what is really rude? Blowing up when someone says “Sure, my calendar is up to date.” I’m shocked at these comments.

    1. biobotb*

      No kidding. Someone who would go out of their way to misunderstand and/or take offense at the exchange the LW describes seems like they’d be very hard to work with long-term.

  65. Oregonbird*

    OP’s boss knows just how out of bounds they’re being; they were careful to make a phone call, rather than leave a written confession of their inability to be a boss.

  66. SusieQQ*

    Wow, Sarah sounds like a jerk. Not saying Pam isn’t being petty here, but… I sympathize. Anyone who texts me an actual picture of a corpse is dead to me (pun intended, I guess). I know her mom died but holy hell.

  67. Mmm.*

    I hate to say it, but the situation in #3 is normal. When it comes to bookstores (and libraries), there’s an assumption of knowledge above all when it comes to the workers. They lend a listening ear and offer advice. (Think Giles in Buffy, especially in the early seasons.) I worked at a bookshop and am married to a librarian. I also worked in a coffee shop, which is similar in vibes. For better or worse, it’s part of the gig at those types of workplaces.

    There are no winners here. The LW has no obligation to help the customer with their issue and should feel no guilt about needing to distance themselves. The customer likely has no one to talk to, especially if they’re the primary caregiver for their son–this bookstore trip may be the only time they can leave the house. Unfortunately, since this is a bookstore and not a library, they can’t offer mental health resources beyond the self-help books the customer is already showing an interest in.

    The manager should be informed, but the people who can really help are the coworkers. They can send you elsewhere as soon as the customer appears and help them instead. If the customer has a regular day they come in on, plan to take your break as soon as they show up. Unless you work with only jerks, they’ll help you out.

  68. Nah*

    Holy heck, if one of my coworkers texted me a picture of a deceased human corpse with what, from my view, is seemingly out of literal nowhere, you better bet I’m storming straight into HR and not leaving until there is a Very dramatic change in management, it I have a damn good severance package with enough extra to pay for my emergency therapy sessions.

    “Not ordering the right coffee for me after I sent a super triggering message to her” is one of the most bland, tiniest remote possible reactions to that. Yeah they’re both obnoxious, but one of the people here is much, *much* more of an issue. Because no, taking down streamers before a birthday is in no way equivalent to, I repeat, SENDING SOMEONE UNCENSORED, TRIGGERING PHOTOS OF A LITERAL DEAD HUMAN BODY.

Comments are closed.