I’m attending a conference with a dude who won’t talk to me

by Alison Green on July 17, 2024

A reader writes:

I work in a niche role in a slightly less niche industry. At the beginning of the year, my boss (Jules) informed us that a new role was opening up on the team — team coordinator.

The new role would be responsible for managing the day-to-day workload for the team, freeing Jules up to concentrate more on the big-picture stuff. Because our jobs are so niche, HR deemed it unlikely they’d find someone external who could take on the role, so the new manager would be an existing member of our team.

Other than me, the team consisted of Grayson, Ellie, and Andy. Andy wasn’t interested in the role as he is close to retirement. Grayson, Ellie, and I all applied for it. I had a suspicion (since verified) that Grayson and I were the only real contenders as we were better performers than Ellie. Beyond that, in my view it was impossible to guess which of the two of us would get the job. Grayson and I both did great, high-volume work. We had similar levels of industry knowledge and experience.

Ultimately, I got the job. From what I understand, it was a super close thing, but I just pipped Grayson in the interview.

When the appointment was made public to the team, Ellie and Andy both messaged me privately, offering warm, seemingly sincere congratulations. Grayson sent a brief message: “Congrats on the job.”

Prior to this job posting, Grayson and I often messaged one another on Slack and we occasionally video-called on quiet Friday afternoons. Since I got the job, Grayson has barely talked to me. No calls, only super-brief messages where absolutely necessary, and responding to my messages with just a thumbs-up or “ok.”

And I get it. This job was our only likely chance at promotion until (or unless) our boss leaves, and the kind of jobs we have are few and far between so there aren’t many viable options beyond the role I now have. If things had panned out the other way and the job went to Grayson, I’d have been super disappointed. And I know he must feel like “what’s the point of working so hard if you get nowhere?” I genuinely understand why he’s probably not happy.

I’m not sure if anyone else on the team has noticed this change in behavior, and I’ve been reluctant to bring it up and make it a thing as we are otherwise a friendly and drama-free team, the work is getting done, and I don’t want my first few months as a new manager to be tarnished by team trouble.

However, there is a big conference coming up in November. We can only justify two of us attending as it’s our busy period, so we drew names out of hats. And guess who was picked … yep, me and Grayson.

The thought of spending three days with a dude who seems to be actively avoiding speaking to me seems like a bad idea. But I honestly don’t know what to do for the best.

Part of me thinks I need to keep giving him time to process and get over this (because prior to this he was a genuinely good dude). Part of me feels guilty that I got this job over him. And part of me is mad that he’s ruining what should be a good experience for me. Please help me. I literally do not know what the best course of action is.

Grayson is being … well, a bit precious here.

It’s okay to be disappointed in not getting a job! We’ve all been there. And if he needs to pull back on being social with you right now because of that disappointment, that’s fine.

But only responding when absolutely necessary and then only with a thumbs-up” or curt “ok” is a bit much. You didn’t steal the job out from under him, or use dirty tactics to get it, or promise you weren’t applying and then swoop in at the last minute. You presumably didn’t take credit for his work during the interview process or try to undermine him. You just applied for a job, the same as he did, and you ended up being the one chosen.

You definitely don’t need to feel guilty about that. But I’d also try not to be mad; he feels what he feels, and this may be the best way he can manage it right now. It’s not particularly mature, but who knows what else might be going on with him. For all we know, this might be the latest in a string of recent disappointments and he’s struggling to handle it all. Or not, but it’ll help you be more charitable toward him if you allow for possibilities like that.

As for the conference … since it’s four months away, there’s a decent chance that Grayson will work through whatever he’s grappling with by then and the trip will be fine.

But if it’s a few weeks before the trip and he’s still avoiding you, it could be worth trying to clear the air. Would you be comfortable saying that you’ve wanted to be respectful of his boundaries but you miss the warmer relationship you used to have and wondered if the two of you can talk through whatever’s going on before traveling together? Or you could say, “Can we clear the air? I know you’ve pulled back from talking with me recently, and I want to make sure there’s nothing I’ve done that’s upset you.” (In fact, you could say that now if you want to.)

Alternately, you could just go on the trip and act like your normal, friendly self. It’s possible the trip could act as a sort of reset, since you’ll be forced to interact more. Or who knows, maybe it’ll be horribly awkward.

But just because he’s being weird doesn’t mean you need to be. You can treat him the way you would anyone else — maybe not the Grayson of old, but a colleague you aren’t close to but assume mutual good will with. Maybe suggest dinner one night of the trip, which he can decline if he wants, but otherwise just plan to do conference stuff on your own, the same way you might if you were attending with someone you didn’t know well or who wasn’t very social. You can also book separate travel and don’t need to feel bound to approach the conference as a unit.

It might not be the best work trip you’ve ever taken, but it will probably end up being less of an ordeal than you’re fearing.

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{ 248 comments }

{ 248 comments… read them below }

  1. juliebulie*

    Actually, the first thing I thought of is that Grayson thinks he needs to have a more stiff/formal relationship now that you outrank him. Perhaps you can take the lead in establishing the kind of relationship you want.

      1. Spencer Hastings*

        This. From the headline, I thought he was, like, giving LW the cut direct or something.

        My question would be whether he’s avoiding talking to the LW *in a way that’s causing problems for the work* (not giving status updates, or not passing on communications from others that the LW needs to hear about…), or if he’s just not initiating the social chat anymore, in which JulieBulie’s point applies. I couldn’t tell from the letter.

        2. I am the LW*

          We (whole team) need to review each others work before it goes out into the world. Previously I’d message something like “Could you review the X report please? Couple of issues on p2 that I think might be dicey – let me know what you think,” and he’d respond something like, “Sure, no problem. Also, have you seen [new feature] in the software? I was thinking maybe we could use [feature] to help with [project t]. If I mock up some examples perhaps we can have a call later in the week to walk through the possibilities?”

          Now, if I send the same request back, all I get is “Ok”.

          So it’s not that he’s ignoring me or not doing the work – it’s more the total lack of collegiality/collaboration.

          1. Stoli*

            Give him time to get used to the new collaboration. Just be pleasant and professional.

          2. Lab Boss*

            That makes me wonder how much of Grayson’s previous effort was trying to show he could go above and beyond to position himself for advancement- now that he’s missed out, he could just be reverting to doing his job at a standard, acceptable level without trying to impress any more.

            If Grayson were writing in asking what to do after all his hard work failed to get him promoted, I can imagine the advice being to remember he doesn’t have to do MORE than his job. He’s not necessarily doing that “at you,” he’s just doing it, and you’re also there while he does it. If he’s doing the job acceptably then it should be acceptable, don’t hold him to some higher standard he’s not actually required to do (and isn’t being paid for).

            1. Ms. Murchison*

              This. Before, Grayson was operating with the hopes of promotion and now that’s gone. The LW shouldn’t feel guilty for getting the promotion but it’s also unreasonable for them to expect Grayson to behave the same now that he has no prospect for advancement in the foreseeable future, much less get mad at Grayson for reacting to losing that opportunity.
              Things are different now, LW. You need to accept that. If he ever becomes rude or behaves in a manner that interferes with work getting done, that would be a different situation. But don’t get upset with a coworker for reacting to taking a hit.

          3. Festively Dressed Earl*

            So he’s pulling back on collaborating; it’s not just a lack of chitchat about the new season of The Bear or opinions on lunch spots. To me, that’s a little different and I’m wondering if he’s retreated on joint efforts with Ellie and Andy as well. No sense saying anything yet if it’s not overt, but keep an eye peeled.

            Do you know any people outside of your office who will be at the conference? If so, it might be a great time to put out feelers and plan to catch up with them.

          4. L-squared*

            Its not that he isn’t collaborating, or being respectful, he just isn’t starting separate conversations from what you 2 NEED to work on.

            If YOU wanted to collaborate, do you think he wouldn’t do it?

            Is his not bringing up new things affecting things negatively? Is that in his job description? It still sounds like you more miss your buddy than he is really being a bad coworker

          5. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            Allison’s statement about meals at the conference made me think of this. If things remain in this style as the conference approaches, I think you need to get a clear idea in your head of “Things We Need to Do” at the conference and “Things I Would Like Us to Do” at the conference.
            Breakfast, do you need to eat together to plan for the day or would you just like to arrive at the first event together?
            Lunch, do you need to have lunch together for work purposes or would it be nice to relax with someone you know?
            Dinner, work purposes?
            And if you think there is a work purpose, and he doesn’t? Just be clear when you ask him, that you want to talk about work. If he doesn’t want to do it over the meal, are you cool with meeting before/after?
            And what if a bunch of people are going off site for a meal, but it’s social not business, would you expect him to share a cab since you work for the same company? I’m curious if anyone has thoughts on this.

            1. wordswords*

              This is very smart. I think it’ll be very useful to sort out well in advance what you’d expect with any colleague (especially, any teammate whose work you now coordinate), and what you’d expect with the old Grayson. Then, set the latter aside, and focus on the former: what’s actually a personal style preference, and what would you expect with someone who’s a perfectly collegial teammate but relatively introverted, not inclined to unnecessary socializing, not particularly a work friend, etc?

              Anything that ends up in that revised version of the Any Colleague category, you have a right to expect (give or take variation by personal style, energy level, and how things shake out in practice at the conference). Anything that’s just in the If We Have The Same Conference-Going Style category or especially the Grayson (Old Version) category, you should let go of. If you’re lucky, maybe Grayson will have chilled out enough to surprise you, but don’t count on it, and don’t let excess expectations get in the way of figuring out a workable and civil new normal.

          6. Insert Clever Name Here*

            Is he then going on to review the report and provide you with the needed feedback, or do you just get back “ok” — not just to your ask but as the feedback? If “ok” then becomes the feedback you get that seems like an obstacle to your work. But if “ok” is just in response to your ask and then you still get useful feedback (“for (ii) I would use ‘may result in cost reductions’ instead of ‘shall result in cost reductions’ but otherwise this looks good to me”) then I think you might need to just let it go.

          7. biobotb*

            His behavior could also be read as behavior from a person who has realized that their extra effort won’t be rewarded, so why put it in?

            It sounds like he’s been pretty demoralized, so I don’t think you should expect him to be happy and chatty with you about work, especially above and beyond his assigned tasks. Hopefully, as others have said, this will dissipate over the coming months and he’ll get more invested again.

            1. serafina*

              THIS so much! There is a promotion in my office available that I have worked five years for. It’s more than likely going to someone who has been here two years and doesn’t have all the qualifications due to workplace politics. (The boss promoting friends versus who is qualified.) Different situation, but reading this, I am seeing him feeling like I am: demoralized and that my extra effort (which included going to college while working full time) wasn’t rewarded. There will be zero chance of promotion in my department for a very long time now. I’m at a crossroads– and so is your colleague, OP. We don’t only grieve when we loose *someone* in our lives, we also grieve things like losing out on a promotion. I’d be understanding and patient with him. It was a huge blow to him. And we all don’t handle it the same way (or with grace at times) and that’s okay. He needs to step back a bit from the friendship side if your working together and keep contact to the minimum. And that’s 100% fine.

          8. wordswords*

            Oof, yeah. That level of curtness in what had previously been a congenial working relationship would sting, for sure! And I disagree with commenters saying that he’s aiming for a more formal relationship — or, at least, if that’s what he’s aiming for, he’s really overcorrecting.

            I might have a different reaction if this were a new work relationship and you were trying not to feel stung by a new coworker’s normal mode. But this isn’t that; this is an abrupt change. Unless maybe if that very brief and minimal conversation style was what either of you had with your previous manager, but I’m guessing you’d have mentioned if that were the case.

            That said, it might be useful to you to try to do some amount of reframing in your head to try to take this as an attempt to reset to something more distant and formal, less because he’s angry (even if he is) and more as a way to deal with his own hurt feelings and the prospect of no advancement within this company. But in your shoes, I would also want to do some amount of clearing the air.

            (I disagree a bit with Alison’s scripts, in that in this situation, “have I done something” would feel disingenuous to me from both sides. I might do something that does a bit more explicit acknowledgment that this was and is an inherently awkward situation, that if your positions were reversed you would have been happy for him but deeply disappointed, but that even if your working relationship has to change somewhat you would like to recapture some of your former collegiality, even if it doesn’t go back to the previous levels of warmth.)

          9. Tesuji*

            Yeah… expecting someone you were promoted over to volunteer to help you seems incredibly tone-deaf.

            If he’s not doing his job, that’s one thing, but him just choosing not to go above-and-beyond (and particularly not to volunteer ideas to make other people better) feels like a perfectly valid choice for him.

            In his shoes, I’d be wondering if I sabotaged myself by being so willing to collaborate before, giving other people on the team the opportunity to shine without my getting any credit for it.

            If the company valued what he was doing before, it should have rewarded it.

            1. Ariaflame*

              Presumably LW also did valuable things and there was only one post available. They did say it seemed close.

              1. Tesuji*

                Sure? I’m not saying that *she* didn’t deserve it.

                Flip the script, and her pulling back and letting the guy promoted above her sink or swim on his own would be perfectly legitimate.

                1. amoeba*

                  What? I mean, they are still working together on a team – of course they’re supposed to help each other! If I refuse to help my boss, that makes me a pretty horrible employee? (And it would definitely never, ever fly here to be *that* curt to, well, anybody, but definitely not direct reports/colleages/managers! That’s not “professional” but really, really rude and even my most, erm, not socially inclined coworkers would never, ever communicate like that.)

          11. allathian*

            He wanted the promotion and was no doubt going above and beyond to show he deserved it. At the time, you were peers and had a warm relationship.

            Now he’s being perfectly professional, he’s just not being extra warm or proactive.

            What’s your relationship like with the other members of your team, both before and after the promotion? Were/are they as proactively collaborative as he was? Do you expect them to be?

            He’s clearly seen the writing on the wall (no room for advancement no matter how friendly and proactive he is) and I wouldn’t be surprised to learn he quit in a future update. He’s quiet quit on you and is undoubtedly looking elsewhere.

            Grief is an emotion that can affect us in odd ways and it’s a normal reaction to any loss, not just the loss of a beloved person or pet. Not only is Grayson mourning the loss of the promotion, and possibly the loss of the idea of future advancement at your company, but you’re also mourning the loss of your former friendly and collaborative relationship with Grayson, as your letter shows. Both reactions are normal, but you need to deal constructively with your grief and let Grayson be Grayson, he doesn’t owe you anything other than what he’s been doing. If he’s completing work to standard, that must be enough.

            In the last few years, several of my teammates have either switched teams, gone on temporary job rotation to a sister organization, or simply quit because a former peer they were friends with was promoted to manage our team. In one case, a 6-month secondment was necessary to deal with the disappointment when an interim position (internal hire) wasn’t made permanent because an external candidate was hired (government, so all permanent positions must be open to external candidates). This person returned eventually when they’d dealt with their disappointment and the new manager had made the position theirs. It helped that both of them are consummate professionals. Now the external hire’s been promoted to director and the interim manager is one of two permanent managers in the department.

          12. Pescadero*

            So he used to do extra work he thought would get him a promotion, and now that he knows he won’t get the promotion – he quit doing the extra work?

    2. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      Same thought here. We just had the letter yesterday from the person saying they can’t have the same relationship they had with a peer now that they were the boss. It’s probably a mix of disappointment and Grayson trying not to be too buddy-buddy with the new boss.

    3. Parenthesis Guy*

      It seems like he’s going way overboard if he’s only responding when necessary with super-brief messages or emojis.

      But I do agree with you that it seems like the OP is expecting that there shouldn’t be a change in their relationship. There are things you can do with peers that you can’t do with your boss.

      1. Msd*

        I agree. That’s what happens when you become a manager. I have casual calls with my coworker on a slow Friday afternoon. I don’t with my manager.

      2. DE*

        I don’t understand this complaint. Do you guys actually WANT unnecessary emails from colleagues? If the work communication is not necessary then don’t do it.

        1. BethDH*

          There’s a difference between doing the minimum necessary and doing things that are relevant, practical, and that contribute to a more efficient department but aren’t the result of a direct and specific request.
          I’m not saying Grayson necessarily has to do that, but I think there’s a big space between what he’s doing and “unnecessary emails.”

        2. amoeba*

          I mean… yeaaah, some of us do, in fact, enjoy communicating with fellow humans at work. It’s not as absurd as it sometimes seems in the comment section here.

    4. Sparkles McFadden*

      I thought this as well. Even if this isn’t what’s going on, it’s a good way for the LW to reframe the situation so she stops feeling guilty and worrying about Grayson.

    5. Sloanicota*

      Yeah, being less effusive doesn’t seem like an issue to me. If he’s not responding or actively sabotaging the work, even in small ways, that’s the line for me. Also OP be prepared for him to quit. That won’t be your fault or your responsibility.

    6. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I just went through something similar (except no one else even knew the role was opening, let alone was invited to apply for it), and had a similar pullback as Grayson’s described. The promoted employee immediately started throwing her newfound authority around, which made it a lot easier.

      I was out of the role and company within 6 months. Don’t be surprised if Grayson moves on to move up as well.

      1. Anonymel*

        From what the OP said, it’s a niche role, in a niche field and opportunities aren’t readily available, which is likely a large part of Grayson’s upset. Seems he can’t move up nor can he move on easily.

        1. I am the LW*

          You’re right. There’s nowhere to move up to in the company: all roles in our team are currently filled, plus we’re in a niche role even within our company, so it’s not easy to readily transfer to other parts of the business unless you’re willing to take a cut in pay and work your way back up again.

          I genuinely feel bad for Grayson because I know how demoralising it is not to have any feasible options in sight.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            Just don’t make the mistake of thinking that what Grayson does now is all that Grayson can do. That’s how I left; the company had pigeonholed me more aggressively than I was willing to be pigeonholed.

          2. Curious*

            And since you feel bad, outrank him and have all the other things that come with getting a promotion give him space.

            I see where you’ve taken the time to respond, but I do wonder is effusiveness really a part of his job or is it something you would like?

          3. Boof*

            It’s hard to say but it really just sounds like he’s withdrawn a bit, and hard to say if it’s temporary because he’s hurt by you winning out, or if he’s just trying to come to grips with the new relationship and what it means, etc. It doesn’t sound like he’s doing anything terrible and I’d say the best thing to do would be maybe to give him a week or two adjust (probably that’s already happened) and then ask him about it gently. I say gently because I don’t nearly have as much context and nuance as you do and I don’t know if would have been, say, normal for you to have gotten coffee or lunch together before, but as part of the supervisor role it seems like an occasional meeting to review how everything’s going makes a lot of sense and “I’ve noticed you don’t seem to volunteer nearly as much of your thoughts on our work since I took on this role, and I always found that very helpful, is there something making you hesitant to talk as freely as before?” or IDK, whatever version of that you like based on what makes sense with your relationship and what you know about them.

          4. Right Royal*

            Hmm. I work in a niche industry and in an organisation where it’s very unusual for people to move up. (There’s generally no roles for them to move up to.) But recently there was a rare internal promotion, which several people went for. It would be seen as bad form (bordering on unprofessional) if any of us now started distancing ourselves from the person who got it! It’s just not good behaviour, no matter how frustrating and unfair our situation is.

            Also, totally separately (different team), in recent months a co-worker of mine has changed to being less professional with me (not replying to emails, leaving me out of processes I should be part of, etc) after years of a better relationship. I’m not in a position to tell my boss (because boss would make the situation worse). But I don’t feel sorry for my co-worker, and I don’t worry much about it either – I just chalk it up to them being a bit of a jerk now (for whatever reason), chase them for answers if I need to, find ways around them, and get on with the whole rest of my work. I also don’t engage much with them socially any more (although I’m friendly and courteous), and I don’t like them any more. Of course, this situation could only come about in a toxic workplace – I should be able to get support with their jerk-iness. But since it’s only a mild, passive jerk-iness, I can just say ‘whatever’.

            (…and I am job-hunting, because overall this office is not functioning well.)

        2. Ready set set set set set*

          These niche role might be rare, but that simply means Grayson needs to put all his spare time and energy into looking for a new position. Pulling back and only doing the minimum expected work is a reasonable response that will help him focus on a challenging job search.

          1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            Id expect Grayson will be networking like mad at the conference trying to make good connections, too, and I wish him luck; it sounds like it might be best all around for him to move on on his own terms, rather than stay in a role with no room for advancement and a promoted-over-him lead who will be judging him for not being as cheerful and conversational as he once was.

    7. Stoli*

      As long as he’s communicating and the work is getting done and he’s not insubordinate or rude, I’d just let him communicate as he wishes. LW is out of the friend zone now.

      Ok is not rude nor is a thumbs up emoji.

    8. ShinyGoldHat*

      This was my thought too…moving to management 100% changes the dynamic. I can totally see myself stiffening up if a coworker turned into my boss.

  2. Goldenrod*

    Ugh. I’m making an assumption here – so forgive me if I am wrong – but I am soooooooo tired of all these stories about men who can’t get over it when a woman succeeds, or gets paid more, or gets a promotion that they want.

    And then she either feels guilty or like she has to manage his emotions for him…. or both.

    This is not your problem, OP.

    1. juliebulie*

      Are we sure that OP is a woman? Maybe I missed something in the letter. That could add an extra layer of something to Grayson’s attitude.

      1. Goldenrod*

        No, I was making an assumption. I could be wrong.

        It just reminded me of a LOT of other stories I’ve heard recently where a woman gets a promotion that her male colleague wanted and then feels guilty when he reacts badly.

        But I may be wrong in this case….

        1. AngryOctopus*

          Also FWIW the LW said they’d feel the same in that position–it could just be that Grayson is simultaneously dealing with disappointment in the outcome AND realizing that now LW is managing them, so they have to be less buddy-buddy (and possibly dealing with some disappointment on that front) (yes that piece would have been the same the other way, we can’t say Grayson wouldn’t have felt that disappointment if they had been the one promoted), so Grayson feels they have lost a work friend. I’d bet on them being able to recalibrate before this conference.
          And LW, please remember that you do actually need to pull back on the friend stuff. You’re now the manager, and things are different!

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            When a coworker and I applied for the same role, we talked about it ahead of time and did a proactive clearing of the air. (We did have the same role at the time but slightly different backgrounds and assumed – rightly – that would be a deciding factor.)

            FWIW – We are both women, but neither one of us is a touchy-feely person. Just interesting that we defaulted to talking it out first. (The role was in a different department, and we have both since left that company but still are friends.)

          2. Craig*

            thus is just one reason why I hate the idea of friends at work. too much drama. I’m here to work, not make friends, that’s what my groups are for.

      2. Peanut Hamper*

        It doesn’t really matter though, does it? He needs to manage his own emotions and behave professionally. That’s not LW’s burden.

        2. I am the LW*

          Alison is correct, I am a woman (although I don’t believe there is a gender issue at play here based on my previous interactions with Grayson).

          1. KWD*

            Thanks for confirming LW. You might think there aren’t gender issues at play (i.e. Grayson would be acting this way if a male coworker got the promotion) but I can pretty much guarantee no man would be feeling guilty about a promotion and worrying about managing the emotions of an employee who was throwing a tantrum like this.

            1. Carla*

              Ouch! You must have had some really terrible experiences to be able to say that and mean it. I’m sorry you’ve had to go through those, that really sucks and I’m sure you did not deserve whatever those men did.

              Doesn’t make it true though. I am lucky enough to know many men who would indeed feel guilty and be concerned about other colleagues emotions, because being a man doesn’t in fact make you an emotionless robot.

              1. 2e*

                I think the point here is not that all men are emotionless robots (?!), but that gender shapes our responses and experiences in ways that aren’t always conscious or explicit.

                Is Grayson fuming to himself, “I can’t believe that a WOMAN is my manager now”? Probably not. But it’s very likely that he’s been subconsciously/unconsciously conditioned to expect that he’ll be in a position of authority relative to women in his workplace. When those expectations aren’t met, people react in pretty predictable ways, IME: they get brusque, prickly, resentful.

      4. ballena10*

        FWIW these names are supporting characters in Cougar Town, so I was basically assuming the LW was Jules (Courtney Cox) the whole time

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          Andie and Grayson, I was picturing the Squirrels from The Nut Job and trying to figure out who Ellie was in the movie. LW would be Surly, then.

          2. Jules (it's just my name; not a Cougar Town reference! ;) )*

            I never saw it, but Abed from Community (another underappreciated show, which I adore) agreed with you. Which makes me fond of it by default.

        6. 20 Points for the Copier*

          Jules is the boss. I was trying to decide if I would rather the OP be Laurie or Bobby Cobb.

    2. AnonInCanada*

      OP never made mention of their gender, so it’s best to presume that’s the case. Grayson is disappointed he didn’t get the promotion. OP shouldn’t be treated in such a curt tone regardless of gender. Though OP should realize there’s going to be differences due to the new power dynamic. OP shouldn’t expect everything to be the same in the rapport Grayson gives. However, it should be a bit more professional than “ok” and “.” Let’s hope this improves between now and that conference.

      1. AnonInCanada*

        … not to presume that’s the case. Proofreading wasn’t my strongest point :-\

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      Yep. I get Grayson being disappointed over losing out on a promotion that is a pretty rare opportunity in his ahem…chosen field, but he needs to put on some big boy pants and manage his emotions and behavior better. This is not on the LW.

      Hopefully, this will all be cleared up by the time the conference rolls around.

      1. AngryOctopus*

        Just because you choose to work in a field that turns out to have limited advancement opportunity does not mean you can’t be disappointed when you don’t get said opportunity. You’re allowed to be human and be sad about missing out! And it’s hard to have to contemplate that your next step may have to come with a move and all that complexity! Let people be human! Grayson is not, in LW’s telling, refusing to work with LW, not handing over needed information, not avoiding work and being awful. Just being less warm than before. That’s OK!

        1. Specks*

          Sort of, yes. But there’s being disappointed and not being as effusive, and then there’s one-word answers for what sounds like 6 months? I’ve been in a similar position to him, and of course it’s horribly disappointing… but I and many other adults find a way to celebrate the colleague that got promoted, adjust to the new dynamic positively, and to learn and grow from the experience of missing out on a promotion, instead of sulking. I agree with Alison — he’s being precious. And to me, just confirming that the managers made the right choice in who to promote, if this is how he handles his emotions at work.

          1. amoeba*

            Yes! Honestly, I feel like I’m in a parallel universe or something, Grayson’s behaviour would be considered incredibly rude in any place I’ve ever worked in. I mean, I’m happy to admit that I’m on the more sociable side, but even my least sociable colleagues would rightly be put out by basically only getting monosyllables for months out of somebody they work closely with!

          3. Alternative Person*

            Yeah, it’s one thing to take a couple of weeks to process the disappointment, but six months?

            I’ve been in the position where I got denied a rare promotion chance and had a good little sulk, discreetly of course and I did cut back on certain things that were going unappreciated but I got back on the proverbial horse because that’s life sometimes.

            I do get it sucks, especially in niche areas where certain promotions are the only way to get good raises and they’re rarer than hen’s teeth which frankly companies need to do something about but yeah sometimes you have to suck it up and be pleasant.

      2. Anonymel*

        So, Grayson “chose” a field due to his interests/desires/aptitude and that means he has to suck up being disappointed in a situation where it’s perfectly NORMAL to be disappointed? The OP made it clear he’s overtly doing nothing hostile or wrong; he just isn’t as warm and fuzzy as before. Frankly, I think that’s kind of normal as he processes his disappointment/grief/whatever and tries to reframe his working relationship with a colleague who was also a friend.

        1. Jellyfish Catcher*

          Grayson’s “choice” of a field doesn’t imply that it has limited advancement, except at this specific company at this specific time.
          A lot of us “chose” a field when we were in college without a whole bunch of research to evaluate the work availability, MUCH LESS the future availability.

          Grayson is likely stunned and stuck at the moment. He has to process disappointment, consider future options , and quickly recalibrate interactions with his new manager, a former coworker and friend.

          Nevertheless, he’s interacting decently from the get-go; give him grace to process this.

      3. Agnes Grey*

        Exactly. If this is typical of how he reacts to setbacks it’s not surprising he wasn’t promoted.

    4. Myrin*

      This gets brought up all the time and is so, so tiresome, honestly.

      Like, yes, what you’re saying is true.

      But also, I can guarantee you that if we had gotten the exact same letter but with Grayson being Geraldine, there would be a lot of comments going “OP must be a man and Geraldine is rightfully angry that a mediocre man was chosen over her!” or alternatively “OP must be a woman and Geraldine clearly feels like she’s the only woman who can be successful at this company!”.

      Again, yes, all the societal background exists, it’s possibly at play in any given letter we read on here, but can we maybe just once, especially when there’s no indication of 1. OP being a woman and 2. Grayson behaving the way he does because she’s a woman, look at the behaviour as it is and deal with that?

      1. Daryush*

        Thanks so much for this, Myrin. I’m tired of all this too.

        Alison gave good advice. Deciding Grayson’s actions are due to sexism and make him a bad person pretty much just destroys all the advice that Alison gave.

      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I agree. You can’t take gender and race dynamics out of the equation, ever, but unless there’s outright discrimination being mentioned in the letter (or the OP hints of it), the *reason* behind why someone won’t talk to someone else is mostly conjecture and doesn’t change the recommended course of action for the OP. Ok, in this case we can make an educated guess that Grayson is upset that he didn’t get the promotion, but there are a lot of other reasons why he’s behaving differently, and if the reason really is that he didn’t get the promotion, he could just be plain old upset (valid!) and not upset because a woman got the job over him. As someone stated in another thread, maybe he is just trying to be more formal with OP now that she has a slightly more supervisory role than he does, for instance, or maybe he’s preoccupied with some personal issue and hasn’t the time or bandwidth for more talking than necessary. Maybe it really is that OP is more supervisory now and he’s waiting for OP to take the lead on how their work relationship should proceed. I know that I don’t banter with new supervisors unless they start to do it first.

        In any case, my point is that there’s no point in trying to guess *why* he’s behaving this way and I do think the advice for OP to have a friendly discussion with him about it is good advice. I think in time this could work itself out, but there’s no reason to not name the issue and see if the two of them can come to an understanding sooner rather than later.

        (Also, I see that AAM confirmed that OP is likely a woman, but my comment stands either way.)

        1. Tau*

          There’s also the thing that, well… personally, as a gender minority in a male-dominated field, it actually helps me a lot to mostly ignore sexism as a possible explanation in day-to-day interactions. Because in these sorts of ambiguous situations where there are very plausible alternate reasons for what’s happening, you cannot realistically bring up the possibility of it being sexism without setting off a huge bomb with yourself in the splash radius. So there’s nothing you can *do* about it one way or the other. Which means that worrying about whether it’s sexism is just a quick way to make yourself frustrated, unhappy, and think very negatively about your coworkers – when it’s possibly unjustified. It also can make it harder to address the issue professionally; I know that I personally would have a much easier time having the friendly discussion if I were in OP’s place if the thought at the back of my mind were “I sympathise with him for being disappointed, I’d be the same if he’d gotten the job” versus “is he being sexist about this because I’m a woman?”

          To be clear, there are definitely situations at work where it’s worth seriously considering the possibility. But those are generally ones where there’s something sensible you can do if it’s sexism – and this is IMO not one.

          1. Spencer Hastings*

            Yeah. When I was younger, I had a colleague who often had me thinking: “Is he sexist, or does he just dislike me in the normal way that two men might dislike each other? Is he mansplaining, or is he just being a jerk?”…but it turned out to be kind of a waste of mental energy, because it didn’t have any effect on what I should do to deal with it.

          2. Quinalla*

            This may work well for you, it does not for me. Being aware that sexism is alive and well even if there is nothing I can do about it has saved my sanity – I am not exaggerating here for effect. I get treated differently because I am a woman and especially because I am a woman in a male dominated field. Until I knew this was the case, I had so much self-doubt, questioning, etc. When it was obvious sexism it was easier to classify, but the not-so-obvious, recognizing it was likely sexism after exploring the other reasonable things it could be helped me to be able to move on. It wasn’t so I could do anything or bring it up to anyone (except friends/family later on sometimes), but to feel like I could trust my own judgement and perceptions.

            Now that I am 10+ years at my company and over 20 in my career, I can and do bring it up when I can and have been successful most of the time at making changes, tiny ones here and there, but still. It is important if you are in a position where you can do it.

            To the originator of this threat, it is frustrating when men cannot handle women succeeding, but since OP has commented that she doesn’t think that is the problem here, I am taking her word for it.

            1. yet another anon*

              This is a great discussion. Quinalla, I too have found it useful to understand when I am being treated unfairly. It helps me say no to work that comes without reward, advocate for good work I do that’s overlooked, figure out when to take things personally and when not, and calibrate when to change tactics. To pick up directly on an earlier comment in this thread, that does not mean “deciding someone is sexist and a terrible person”. Good people act on unconscious biases, bad people act on unconscious bias, the very rules and structures of systems have built-in bias. I’ve had truly lovely people treat me in a very sexist way, usually in the context of asking me to do extra unpaid unrewarded work to “increase diversity” or in shunting me toward the people-focused aspects of my technical job.

              It’s not useful to recognize these biases to just claim unfairness, complain, etc. It is useful to understand for myself how I’m going to need to modify my behavior to get the results I want OR change the game. So yes, maybe as a neurodiverse female manager I’m going to have to remember to ask about peoples’ families briefly when I talk with them, for cultural reasons, because the penalty for not doing so is disproportionate compared to what a male manager would get. Whatever. I’d rather know & understand & be able to move forward than just… be ineffective for a stupid reason.

              In this case, as others have noted, there are a couple gendered aspects and it may or may not truly be a contributor. Few of us are all that conscious of our unconscious thoughts. It’s unknowable and frankly doesn’t matter. We’re in a system that has patterns, and it’s worth noting the patterns.

              The OP needs to figure out what her leadership style looks like and how she will relate to this coworker. People in our culture are socialized by gender with respect to how they react to competition and cooperation. I don’t think anyone here is “doing something wrong” and certainly no one is a terrible person. OP needs to understand that Grayson’s behavior isn’t personal, in some sense, and that her feelings about it are hers to deal with. If Grayson’s change in communication has affected the productivity of the group, then it’s definitely fair game to bring up. It’s not useful to assume that Grayson’s approach is because of any one of (sexism, the exact way he’d treat a guy who beat him in a competition, quiet quitting, heavy job searching, anything else) but one can be aware of the range of possibilities. In this case, looking at that whole range of possibilities, all I see is: don’t make it a feelings conversation, because that’s not fair to Grayson, OP. If you make it a conversation, bring up the work and collegiality aspects and consider why you have standing to ask for a different way of communicating.

            2. Tau*

              This has made me mull over my personal dividing line, since I definitely do see your point and would never want to argue that suspecting sexism is always the wrong choice. I think the thing is that I try to avoid thinking about sexism as a possible cause for company-internal things that have a pretty plausible alternate explanation, where that alternate explanation is not one that is affecting my mental health, and that are not repeated patterns. I also try to keep an eye out for common sexist patterns, such as whether I get saddled with the note-taking or scheduling (and I do not volunteer for certain tasks like note-taking as a general rule), whether I get interrupted a lot or condescended to or my ideas don’t get taken seriously, etc. as a general sexism-at-work barometer. Assuming that things on that front are good overall, it’s healthier for me personally to dismiss the occasional ambiguous event that might have an innocent explanation, especially because bringing up sexism as a possible cause might cause significant damage to my working relationships.

              …although thinking it over again, I think “dismiss” is probably the wrong word – I act on it as if the innocent explanation holds true but pretty much log it as a data point so I notice if it becomes a pattern of behaviour or if the follow-up makes the innocent explanation less likely.

              And this probably can’t be divorced from the fact that I think I’ve mostly worked in places that were sort of good but not great as far as sexism is concerned – so where the sexism barometer is generally fine, but I’m concerned my bosses and HR would not do great with a sexism complaint.

      3. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        Eh. While my workplace is better now, back when I was hired, I was hired at a lower grade than a man with very equivalent experience and men were promoted within about 4-5 years while women weren’t promoted until 8-10 years. It’s really more tiresome to lose tens of thousands of dollars than to hear about it.

          1. Ginger Cat Lady*

            It’s relevant to this reply, suggesting that we just ignore sexism and explaining why ignoring the role of sexism is a bad idea.

            1. jasmine*

              The point of the reply is that many of us having experienced sexism doesn’t automatically make sexism relevant to every letter. No one is denying that sexism exists and giving examples of it isn’t conducive to this particular conversation.

      4. jasmine*

        This. Like what reason do we have here to assume that’s the case?

        Also while I agree that the societal background exists, there’s a certain point where your perspective becomes reality. If you think the real cause of every kerfuffle between different genders is gender bias, then you’re just constantly reinforcing that belief in yourself by seeing it everywhere.

      5. Yoli*

        Also this (mostly WW) comment section treats gender as the only axis of oppression–the folks who constantly bring this up are clearly assuming all of the folks involved are white.

    5. M2*

      I am a woman and I have seen it both ways. I have seen men who can’t handle when a woman gets a promotion, but I have also seen women (and men) get promotions they don’t deserve (sometimes because of their gender/ friendlier with boss). What happens is that your top performers stop being top performers because what is the point? They also will look for other roles and leave or just phone it in. Not saying LW didn’t deserve the promotion, but having some empathy and understanding goes a long way. Give it a few more weeks and I agree that you don’t know what is happening in this person’s life.

      Honestly he isn’t being rude or mean and is answering questions/still doing work so what is the issue here? He said congrats and is probably realizing why go above and beyond anymore? It would be a completely different issue if he were being rude or not doing work (don’t expect him to go above + beyond or work more than 40 hours anymore if he did before).

      People are allowed to be disappointed and this just happened, so I would give it time.

      1. Lab Boss*

        “What happens is that your top performers stop being top performers because what is the point? They also will look for other roles and leave or just phone it in.”

        “Not saying LW didn’t deserve the promotion”

        These points are key. It can be absolutely true that LW was the best hire of the two, and *at the same time* be absolutely true that Grayson would have been a great fit for the promotion and just had the bad luck to be competing against someone who (from LW’s own description) was just the barest iota better. When companies signal to high performers that they can’t move up, they may decide to either stop performing so high or to move on. And that’s not a decision that has to be made in anger or unfairness- if I’m great but my coworker Jane is Great+, I can recognize that and be happy for Jane while still acting in my own interest knowing Jane will always be in the way of me advancing like I might if she weren’t there.

    6. Prentice*

      You’re making an assumption and I don’t think it’s helpful to the discussion. The OP did not indicate in anyway that they believe gender is playing a part in this so why would you bring it in? It’s unrelated to the discussion at hand will only get the discussion off track

      1. I am the LW*

        For what it’s worth, I am a woman but I genuinely don’t believe this is a gender issue. Grayson has never said/done anything to make me believe gender might be at play here.

    7. Bill and Heather's Excellent Adventure*

      This was my reaction, too. It’s okay to be disappointed, it’s NOT okay for Grayson to take it out on OP!

      OP, you’re not responsible for Grayson’s feelings. Continue to be friendly and professional but let go of that guilt. And if Grayson has decided that it’s time to move on, you can support him, but none of this is your fault.

  3. Dust Bunny*

    If you’re going to do niche jobs in niche industries you’d better get very used to the idea that there aren’t that many jobs and that you’re likely to miss out for (arbitrary, trifling, hair-splitting, etc.) reasons. That’s the flip side of the prestige and exclusivity of being in a niche industry.

    Maybe Grayson is just being formal now that OP outranks him, but maybe he needs a thicker skin.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      +1 to your first paragraph. Sometimes you have to move out to move up in some companies. It’s not fun to start over somewhere else, but that’s what you have to do.

    2. AngryOctopus*

      Okay, but human beings are allowed to be sad about missing out on that higher job they applied for in that limited niche industry, and allowed to be sad as they figure out that their next step might involve the complexity of a move. You don’t stop being human with human feelings just because you know you’re in a niche industry.

      1. Specks*

        Being sad and sulking for half a year are not equivalent. If this was 2 weeks after the promotion, I’d understand, but several months is kind of much. You can be human and still be professional, positive, and resilient in the face of disappointments.

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          It’s unclear to me how long it’s actually been. The letter says the discussions began around the start of the year, which could mean mid- to late January. We also don’t know how long the process took. I don’t think it’s been a full half year.

          I also don’t think he’s necessarily sulking. I recall a letter about a rock star who got passed over for promotion, and she stopped going above and beyond. Greyson could simply have decided that stepping back emotionally from the job is better for his mental health.

          1. ferrina*

            Yeah, I think it makes a big difference how long it’s been. If it’s only been a few weeks, give him some more time. But if this has been going on since February, that’s a problem.

            And I do think this is a problem. Grayson is doing the barest minimum in communication in what sounds like a highly collaborative team. There’s nothing to indicate that he’s cutting back on hours or responsibility; just that he’s not talking to anyone. If this team relies on sharing information, that’s going to be a problem.

    3. Anonymel*

      Or perhaps the OP needs thicker skin? She is taking his more formal approach to their relationship quite personally, when it’s quite possible/probable that he is just like “ok well she’s the boss now, not my buddy so playtime is over; let’s keep it professional.” He has by her own words done NOTHING overtly wrong, rude, or hostile. Not sure where you get that HE needs to “get thicker skin” from.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        We don’t know that. We know that he is less personable than he was, it doesn’t sound like he was overly chummy beforehand so at least some commentors feel like he’s gone from work-appropriate to cold. If the OP has to work with this guy closely on a conference ,it’s reasonable to be concerned that he might not be as communicative or take initiative if he’s sore about missing the promotion.

        1. Anonymel*

          “it’s reasonable to be concerned that he might not be as communicative or take initiative if he’s sore about missing the promotion”

          But.. that wasn’t the LW’s concern. It was that going to a conference with someone who no longer seems to be her friend would be awkward and miserable. At no time did she give the slightest indication he wasn’t taking initiative or in any way not doing his job. Saying, “ok” instead of “that sounds great” is….not being uncommunicative. It may SEEM that way, but, it’s not.

    4. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      That’s the flip side of the prestige and exclusivity of being in a niche industry.

      My genuine reaction to this assumption violates the rule to be kind.

      Some of us end up in “niche roles and niche industries” because there was an opening we were able to project ourselves as being able to fit after reasonable ramp up and needed employment for such luxuries as food, shelter, and transportation.

      It’s mostly a raw deal; even with depressed supply, the depressed demand for labor tends to rule the results until you reach professional athlete level niches.

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Also, niche doesn’t necessarily mean prestigious — I would say that shoe repair people are niche, but I don’t think anyone is going to argue that they’re prestigious. The people who repair big clocks like you used to have on town halls and whatnot (that are mostly gone or nonfunctional now) are VERY niche, and while it’s kind of a cool job, I’d guess they mostly get treated like maintenance folks with slightly rarer skills.

        I work in a field of IT that might be described as moderately niche (though nowhere near as niche as what the LW is describing, thankfully), and it doesn’t mean that I get extra respect, it means that I get paid less than a lot of developers do because no one knows what I do or how difficult it is. (I bet you that most or all of the people who do my job at Twitter got laid off in the first or second wave because the new guy said, “It’s working — why do we need all these people?”) And that if I’m job searching I have fewer options, and need to weed out a bunch of things that are not quite what I do.

        There are prestigious niches, and then there are just niches. My aunt is a pension actuary — it’s not prestigious or exclusive, it’s just, “huh?”

        1. Susan Calvin*

          Literally! I’ve been angling for my transitioning from consultancy to project management for years now, even though I find it somewhat less fulfilling, because the number of potential employers where my particular consulting expertise would be applicable, I can count on two hands – for a generous definition of applicable, and assuming a willingness to relocate internationally!

          The most prestigious thing I’ve gotten out of it so far have been a few reasonably fancy business dinners with household name clients, but I’m pretty sure 90% of my family don’t actually understand what I even do.

  4. L-squared*

    I just… don’t see the issue. He is still civil. This doesn’t seem to be affecting your working relationship, he is just less social. I don’t think that makes him “precious” . It seems that you are his manager now, or at least above him on the heirachy. I feel like just recently there was a note about a boss getting promoted and having a conversation about pulling back on the social aspect with one of her reports. But because he is doing so first, that makes him “precious” and not mature? Not really seeing the difference. He has decided to pull back on a social relationship with his now manager. Sounds like a mature response to me.

    Now, I can understand how this may not be the most fun conference situation. But I’ve gone to conferences with people I’ve had a very cordial, not at all personal relationship with, and its been fine.

    1. Goldenrod*

      But you can tell the difference in tone when someone who used to send you full sentences that are warm and friendly is suddenly now just sending curt, one-syllable replies like “OK” or a thumbs-up emoji.

      I agree with Alison that he is being a bit precious.

      1. Olive*

        That’s a personal-social problem though, not a work problem. As a new coordinator, it’s important to keep those separate, even if it feels bad. Of course there’s some overlap. Someone who is barely social is not being professional. But if his behavior in a vacuum is sufficiently professional, it wouldn’t be a good professional decision to try to make him behave differently or act like his professional behavior is insufficient. Even though he’s being a bit precious.

      2. L-squared*

        Is anything more than OK required? Like if its just like “I’ll need you to get me those TPS reports by Monday” and he replies “Ok”, that seems fine.

        If this wasn’t someone she used to video chat with regularly, would she still find those responses to be lacking, or would she find them to be adequate, even if a bit distant?

      3. jasmine*

        But there’s nothing wrong with changing tone so long as you’re still being professional?

        I’d be a little upset if I was LW, but at the same time, Grayson hasn’t done anything wrong. He has a right to decide how friendly he wants to be with colleagues, even if it kind of sucks when your colleague chooses to tone down the friendliness.

        1. ferrina*

          This isn’t professional, though. Professionalism requires a baseline communication level, and it sounds like this isn’t here. OP mentions that the team is collaborative and shares information- it would make sense if Grayson were no longer offering to do brainstorming sessions, but he’s refusing to communicate beyond the online equivalent of a grunt. I’ve worked with plenty of people that I didn’t like; they still got the information that they needed. Heck, I’ve been in Grayson’s shoes- I lost out on a promotion to a colleague (in my case, the colleague was also vastly underqualified and was a nepo pick). To make things worse, I sat about 4 ft away from this person. I still had a duty to ensure that this person had the information they needed to do their job.

          Grayson’s lack of communication hasn’t hurt the team yet, but if this team relies on collaboration and information-sharing, then Grayson’s approach will cause problems.

    2. Expelliarmus*

      He’s being almost chilly though, with how brief his messages are, and with his manager at that. That is not a good dynamic to have with your manager. I don’t think OP is expecting a social relationship like before, just hoping to not have bitterness radiating from their now-employee.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        This. He’s doing the bare minimum in communicating. He’s acting like a petulant child, not a grown-ass adult.

        He needs to lick his wounds and get over this (because it sucks to lose a promotion, I get it) and act professionally, or he needs to consider if he can remain working with this company. But none of that’s on LW.

        1. Prentice*

          Nothing in the letter suggest that he’s acting unprofessionally. If the OP isn’t accusing him of unprofessional behavior, why are you?

          1. Anonymel*

            Exactly. She seems unhappy to have lost a work buddy, but the work is getting done, and saying, “ok” when something is “ok” and doesn’t need a long “Ok that sounds great to me!” or whatever isn’t being chilly. If they had always been courteous but not super friendly, and he’d remained this way, there’d be nothing to see here. The OP needs to stop wanting him to be a colleague AND a friend AND a subordinate all at the same time.

        2. New Jack Karyn*

          This is unkind. He’s communicating, he’s doing the work. He’s not being disrespectful. He’s just pulled back from the job emotionally.

          It’s a change from before, and it’s okay for LW to feel a little stung by that change. But that doesn’t mean he’s being petulant or childish.

      2. Sloanicota*

        My read is that he’s withdrawing and likely job searching. By the time the conference rolls around I’d expect him to have either sorted out his stuff or moved on; if he’s still at this level of formality that would be quite weird.

      3. East Coast Lawyer*

        I don’t think it’s childish or inappropriate to pull back and adopt a more formal tone when a peer is promoted to manager in any event, and dealing with disappointment by being more guarded/less warm and personal in tone seems like a professional wY of handljng things.

        1. Sloanicota*

          Yeah to be honest, if Grayson had written in, “I’m really disappointed and feel like I would have done a great job with this position and missed it by a hair. How can I get along with this new manager who used to be my peer? We used to be really friendly,” I would probably say “it’s okay to withdraw a bit socially, just focus on getting the work done and not bringing up any grievances or trying to sink her.” Of course, where that line is does vary for everyone.

            1. Viki*

              I disagree. That’s perfectly fine communication. Thumbs up emoji (or liking the chat in Teams), or “Ok” works.

              It’s how most of my team works in chat, and no one dislikes anyone.

            2. Spencer Hastings*

              Just today, I responded to one Teams message with a thumbs up, one with “done”, and one with “thanks”. So it seems pretty normal to me. I do sometimes have lengthier back-and-forths with people, but not in every situation.

            3. Ask a Manager* Post author

              There’s nothing wrong with those responses when appropriate. But going from talking warmly with someone to ONLY using those responses is a noticeable shift to chilliness.

              Like I said in my answer, that doesn’t require that the LW do anything, but let’s not pretend people can’t see noticeable shifts in tone or feel when someone is being chilly.

        2. Happy meal with extra happy*

          Responding via emojis or curt, one word answers is not a professional tone.

          1. Sloanicota*

            I guess we’re all picturing this a little differently. To me, putting a “thumbs up” in slack in response to a request is saying “yep, I’m on it” and is probably fine between peers, even if you previously might have engaged more. Now if it’s the “head of steam” emoji or the rapsberry or something … :P

            1. Dust Bunny*

              We do this at my job but we’re all also on friendly, not-terse terms with each other. Context matters.

          2. Anonymel*

            So, you don’t ever say to a colleague or friend “ok” when they say let’s do X or can you handle Y? You’ve never thumbed up a Teams comment because it … really require a reply and you wanted to acknowledge you’d read it? That’s way off base. That is normal workplace communication. If you need a paragraph of euphemisms that all end up MEANING “ok” in order to feel like you’re being communicated with “professionally” … that’s unreasonable. A solid 75% of my/my colleagues responses at work are “Ok” “sure” “yep” “nope” “thanks” and thumbs up.

            1. Anonymel*

              *didn’t require a reply….

              I wish we had the option to edit. I never catch my mistakes until AFTER I post.

            2. Humble Schoolmarm*

              I definitely do, but I also ask questions and give longer responses too. I don’t think there’s anything unprofessional about brief answers, but there is if that’s the sum total of your communication.

        3. Sparkles McFadden*

          Grayson might be pulling back from the LW because it makes things clearer for him. He’s on a small team with someone preparing to retire (Andy), and someone who is not one of the top performers (Ellie). Grayson might be concerned that his workload is going to increase now that the LW (the other top performer) has additional duties. It’s a lot easier to discuss work assignments with your team lead when you’re not buddies.

      4. amoeba*

        Yeah, I literally cannot imagine *ever* only giving my manager (or my colleagues, for that!) thumbs up and “OK” messages. That would never, ever fly here.

    3. Chi*

      I agree with this! He is civil and getting the work done but not chummy and that’s OK!

    4. AngryOctopus*

      This is where I come down. And do these messages seem cold because of the former friendship? Is Grayson worried that being warmer in the messages is going to flag them as “trying to be too close to the boss”? It’s hard to navigate sadness about losing out on a promotion (because no matter your job situation, lots of them around, few of them around, you’re going to be sad when you go for a job you don’t get) and also maybe some sadness/realization landing that you ALSO cannot be as close to your work friend anymore. Maybe Grayson is precious. Maybe Grayson is overcompensating. Maybe Grayson sees LW trying to still be friends and is thinking “we can’t do this anyore since LW is managing me, but it’s awkward to say something!!”. Give it time, LW. And maybe have the “we can still be friendly but since I’m the boss now we can’t be as social and that’s OK” talk.

    5. Morgan Proctor*

      Thank you!! It doesn’t seem like any of this is actually affecting the LW’s ability to do their job? Grayson is responding to LW, he’s just not being overtly friendly anymore, and that’s fine. This very blog has, many many times over the years, assured and reassured letter writers that it’s ok not to be friends with your coworkers, and especially not to be friends with your superiors. Why is that suddenly a problem?

      I also find that calling Grayson “precious” is out of line. He hasn’t done anything wrong.

      1. East Coast Lawyer*

        Agreed! We see commenters here all the time being advised to “lean out” if they are passed over for advancement or have expressed interest in opportunities but realized there’s little chance of anything concrete materializing, and even encouraged to quiet quit. Perhaps Grayson has chosen to do the same. Given that some feel strongly defensive about talking about their weekends or sharing any bit of their personal lives, it seems odd that Grayson’s decision to share less of himself with a workplace that has disappointed him is being characterized as “precious.”

  5. kt*

    In my experiences, this often happens with a certain gender configuration. Pick up on it or drop it as desired, just saying that’s my honest lived experience.

    Given that lived experience, a few paths forward, depending on the dude:

    1) See if you can break the ice with humor when the time is right.
    2) Given his achievement track record, see what you can do to recognize and reward that. There is something dangerous here, in that you don’t want to look weak and look like you’re rolling over & giving away your power because you’re a people-pleaser who’ll do anything to be liked. There is a way of elevating folks who deserve it that also appears strong. You have to believe you deserved your promotion and also be magnanimous and not condescending, convey some “stronger-together” feeling and also give him some vision of a good path forward. Not sure if that’s all in your power though.

    It’ll be important for you to work through feeling guilty and feeling like he’s ruining what should be a good experience. Unfortunately the truth of moving up in management (again, in my experience) is that you have to let go of guilt (to a non-sociopathic extent), let go of being liked, let go of being treated like a peer, etc. It’s not all about you as a person — a lot is about structures of power. But you will become a more effective manager if you develop techniques now for dealing with the discomfort of unpleasant feelings/interactions with folks you manage (and heck fellow managers). The fact that you have these feelings speaks well of you as a person, but if it’s a dynamic that continues you’ll have some really miserable days. People will bring all sorts of feelings to work that you’ll need to be able to respect & then move on from. You won’t be able to fix or take on their feelings.

    Well, thanks for that trip down memory lane :) curious if it’ll resonate.

    1. Sloanicota*

      I guess I’d say … what would you have wanted him to do for you if he’d won the job by a coin toss? Can you do any of those things for him? (Not saying you didn’t deserve the promotion, just sayin’).

  6. Apex Mountain*

    I agree with the overall advice that if Grayson is generally a good guy he’s probably just very disappointed but will get over it. OP even says this is a rare chance at a promotion, and so now G may be wondering about his future there.

    You have four months in between now and the conference so most likely things will get back to normal by then

    1. Guacamole Bob*

      Yes, the four months is a lot, and OP may end up sinking a lot of anxiety into this for nothing.

      I had a colleague who pulled way back in a number of ways after not getting a promotion- the details are irrelevant but it was an understandable human reaction to significant disappointment. Several months in, things have settled in a number of ways and the relationships are much better.

      Grayson could hold a grudge, of course, but if OP decides to give it a while and then reassess, the problem may lessen or disappear.

    2. allathian*

      Either back to normal or Grayson working somewhere else.

      If he’s still there, I’d expect him to network the heck out of the conference to get leads on potential new jobs.

      But the LW needs to let go of the idea that they can get chummy Grayson back, at least as long as they’re working together.

  7. JMA*

    Comparing this to other AAM stories about coworkers who don’t talk to their peers, I was expecting OP to be getting completely ignored and having issues with getting jobs done. He used to be on a friendly, social level with OP, and now that she’s his manager, he’s pulling back. Work is still getting done, he’s not being rude or hostile. He doesn’t owe her a chatty friendship even before the promotion.

    I feel like OP misses the friendship and social relationship that existed earlier, but things change. It might warm up in time, but I don’t feel like he’s being out of line.

    1. Advice2*

      “He doesn’t owe her a chatty friendship even before the promotion” and “It might warm up in time, but I don’t feel like he’s being out of line.”

      Completely agree, especially on these points.

  8. Ashley*

    I do think there’s something to be said about the fact that if LW is senior to him now, a change in the relationship is likely expected anyway. So even if LW does talk to him about it, I’d make sure they’re being mindful of whether the old relationship even makes sense in the current role dynamic.

    I can appreciate if LW feels it’s overly cold or has overcorrected even with that in mind, and that’s fair to navigate. But it’s definitely a layer to consider when figuring out what the relationship should be going forward.

  9. Phony Genius*

    This seems to be common behavior in many people who perceive somebody else receiving something that they feel they should have received instead. They see it as “unjust enrichment” and for some reason, the target of their anger is the “unjustly enriched.” Whoever made the decision often becomes a lesser target or even a non-target. I can’t explain why this happens, only that I have seen it several times, and it has never made sense.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Yep. The number of people here who are willing to give him a pass because they assume he’s just resetting the relationship instead of being rude–it creates a rage.

      1. Goldenrod*

        Ha ha! Yes, I agree that it does create a rage.

        Going suddenly from a friendly chatty relationship to one-word terse responses *is* a bit precious, in my opinion.

        And I don’t think OP needs to do a lot of work to manage this – or manage his emotions – or feel guilty about it at all.

        Also, do we know for sure that OP is the boss? “Team coordinator” might mean that, but also, it might not…

        1. m*

          yeah, I didn’t read the letter as LW now managing Grayson directly — that’s still their boss’ job, and LW is a team lead role that manages the *work* but not the people. Probably still appropriate for the dynamics to shift a bit, but not to this degree imo.

          1. I am the LW*

            You’re right, I’m not managing Grayson directly – I have no responsibility for hiring/firing, approving PTO, etc. I’m just co-ordinating the workflow: organising who has which assignment (they are all variations on a theme so there are no particularly ‘good’/‘bad’ assignments), rejigging things if timetables shift, liaising with external forces to try and help get our work over the line, etc.

        2. jasmine*

          I mean, it sounds a little like y’all are saying that once you’re friendly with a coworker, you’re never allowed to tone down that friendliness.

          We’ve gotten so many letters where someone wanted to pull back from interacting with a coworker and the advice has always been to be polite and just focus on work, because you’re not obligated to do any more than that if you don’t want to. So I’m confused why there’s so much criticism of Grayson here.

      2. Apex Mountain*

        I don’t think he’s intentionally resetting the relationship, it seems more likely he’s just disappointed and not handling it great. But according to OP he’s typically a good guy so this could be just the initial response, and then he’ll get back to normal.

      3. L-squared*

        What do you see as rude? Responding OK? Because, depending on what the communication is, OK, or a thumbs up, is not necesssarily rude.

        It is a different relationship that it was. That’s it.

        1. SnackAttack*

          Okay, but most people are understandably hurt and confused when a relationship goes from warm and friendly to terse and brusque. In a vacuum, sure, someone can just pull back with no explanation and say it is what it is, but in the real world, you can’t just pull away without evoking some kind of response from the other person. Grayson has a right to step back, but LW also has a right to be hurt. I think this comment section is just a bit averse to socialization at work, so they forget that you can’t necessarily just compartmentalize “work feelings” and “social feelings.”

          1. East Coast Lawyer*

            I think it’s fine for LW to be hurt by the situation without framing it as Grayson acting “precious” or as something that needs to change. It always hurts when someone we like distances themselves, including when employees who are promoted to manager do so as evidenced in the letter yesterday. It doesn’t mean the person doing the distancing has done anything wrong or needs to rethink the “chillier” approach so long as professional courtesy is still being extended on all sides.

            1. jasmine*

              +1

              Boundaries can be hurtful in some cases, understandably so, but they don’t make someone “precious”

        2. skadhu*

          Ok or an emoji are fine in a context that includes wider comprehensive communication in interactions; I often use both in email with people I’m working on projects with. The key is that it’s not *every* communication in both digital and in-person interactions. And when someone goes from friendly—or even just professionally collegial—relations to one-word responses that barely acknowledge the receipt of info, it makes it pretty clear that they want no contact at all and are only interacting under duress, and I see their communicating that message as very unprofessional. I’ve been royally pissed at situations/associated people in work contexts plenty of times and somehow I always have managed to communicate with them normally—not in a particularly friendly mode, but politely and reasonably pleasantly—despite that. Someone who is demoralized by a work situation and doesn’t want to go the extra mile in their job is still capable of being normally polite to coworkers—those are not the same thing at all. It’s not the difference between being friends and not, it’s the difference between being professional and not.

          1. allathian*

            Yes, I agree. That said, the example the LW gave shows that a longer phrase meaning “okay” feels natural when the next sentence is a suggestion of some kind. When it’s just an acceptance of an assignment, a one-word reply is fine.

            And it’s absolutely acceptable to react to disappointment by staying in your lane and sticking to work topics and refusing to go above and beyond. A bare minimum of social politeness is covered by a (neutral or cheerful) greeting at the start of the work day, at least as a response even if you don’t initiate it.

      5. Anonymel*

        And the number of people assuming Grayson’s a petulant man boy who harbors a grudge against the OP when SHE HERSELF indicated nothing of the kind–it too creates a rage. He doesn’t OWE her chatty friendly conversations; he never did. And if a question ONLY needs an “ok” and not a “Well blah blah blah then it’d be ok, I guess” for an answer, then saying “ok” is in fact, fine.

        1. SnackAttack*

          This seems a bit harsh. I guess I don’t understand when the world got so “I don’t owe you anything” about any kind of relationship. Sure, maybe he doesn’t “owe” her warm conversations, but given their history, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want some kind of explanation. I don’t think Grayson is being a man child here, but in the real world, when you have a good relationship with someone and they suddenly do a 180, it’s natural to be a little hurt and wonder what happened. Also, the LW isn’t being harsh towards Grayson in any way. People are so eager to pretend that it’s easy have one work life and one personal life and keep the feelings and norms completely separate, but it doesn’t always work that way.

          1. East Coast Lawyer*

            It’s just interesting to see so much pushback from commenters to an approach to separating work and personal lives that has been so strongly advocated for on this blog and by commenters in the past. If Grayson had written in, it seems commenters would have advised him to do exactly what he’s doing now.

          2. Spencer Hastings*

            I mean, Peanut Hamper’s original comment that people are responding to was also a little harsh, so…

          3. jasmine*

            But I don’t see people criticizing OP for having feelings. “Grayson didn’t do anything wrong” and “it makes sense that OP is a little hurt by the change in their relationship” are two statements that can coexist.

          4. allathian*

            The only explanation the LW needs is self-evident to me, namely that Grayson is disappointed because he didn’t get the promotion, and disengaging from his job by only doing his job and not going above and beyond. He’s no doubt looking elsewhere for a new job because he can’t see any room for advancement in this one. It’s also prudent of him to pull back from the friendship with his supervisor, even if the LW’s just the team lead. Even such nebulous authority must avoid any appearances of favoritism, if there’s any chance other team members might start suspecting that the friend gets better assignments than others thanks to the friendship.

            That said, wanting a friendly and professional relationship with coworkers regardless of their position on the org chart is not too much to ask in general.

          5. QueenWasp*

            Sure! OP gets to feel their feelings, I don’t see anyone saying otherwise! People are just offering a way to view this that may help OP feel less affronted, aggrieved, hurt or annoyed (delete as appropriate). The point is, while OP might LIKE an explanation, they aren’t entitled to one, and acting as though they are will only encourage the negative feelings.

  10. BellyButton*

    Why do you have to spend 3 days together. The point of two of you going to a conference is so that you get useful information to bring back to advance your team. So go do your own thing. You don’t need to do anything with him. I have never attended a conference with collogues with any sort of expectation that we would hang out. We would sometimes coordinate who was going to what talk so that we maximized our knowledge and we may agree to grab a dinner or if we see each other around lunch time sit together. That’s it.

    1. Elarra Harper*

      This. I’ve been to conferences with my manger and saw her twice in 3 days, once at lunch and once at an evening social. We didn’t say more than Hi to each other, since part of the goal of the conference was networking with others.

    2. Sloanicota*

      Good point. You *can* make joint travel to a conference more of a social thing, but it doesn’t have to be. There are a lot of small ways to give yourself more space without making a big point. Choose to fly or travel out on a different day, say. Don’t set up a shared dinner. Decide to cover different tracks if that makes sense.

    3. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

      Very this. The conference is for networking with new people, learning new things, driving new business, no? As long as Grayson is cordial, and he is, you canndo this.

    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      Depends on the conference! Sometimes you end up needing to spend time with coworkers because you’re there to represent your company. That can mean staffing a booth, attending vendor events, dining with clients, etc. If this is the case, it will be awkward if your coworker is curt with you.

      Other times, you’re just an attendee and it can be perfectly normal to split up from your coworkers to seek out the sessions that interest you.

    5. New laptop who dis*

      Yes! And I want to explicitly call out the recommendation to book your own travel. Traveling solo for work is VASTLY SUPERIOR to traveling with (most) colleagues. It’s so much nicer to just go and do your own thing instead of having to be “on” for boring hours on end. At the very least don’t book seats together, so you get a break from each other on the flight… but my preference is always to just get to and fro under my own steam and just see my colleagues when I get there. There’s such a thing as too much togetherness even with the best of work buddies, IMO.

    6. Cheap ass rolling with it*

      This. It doesn’t make sense for me to attend a conference and see the same people I could easily see at work. Use it as a chance to network.

      If you have to eat meals alone, you could explore new restaurants in the city. If you’re self-conscious about eating alone, you could go to casual restaurants (like a local cuisine or local fast-food chain). I’m thinking Mexican burritos in the San Francisco Mission, Dick’s Drive In in Seattle, or Uno’s Chicago Pizza in Chicago.

  11. Peanut Hamper*

    Can we please remember that Ellie also applied for this job, did not get it, and is not acting like this?

    1. AngryOctopus*

      FWIW, Ellie may have applied for it, but not felt that she would seriously be in the running (I got that implication from what LW wrote).

      1. Sloanicota*

        That’s actually an interesting point. Just because OP claimed she wasn’t really in the running, that’s rarely how it looks and feels from the inside – yet Ellie’s apparently able to carry on. Sure, Grayson might be aware it was really close and that may make it sting a bit more … but it does give OP some basis for comparison.

      2. I am the LW*

        You’ve really got me thinking here. I think it’s clear to the team that Ellie is the weakest performer, but I don’t know if Ellie herself sees it that way. For what it’s worth, she has an MSc related to our field and several certifications in project management – I had feared at one stage of the hiring process that Ellie’s qualifications might have carried more weight than our actual performances. Whether she believes she was genuinely a contender for this role or not, I couldn’t say, but I wouldn’t be surpised if she thought she had an equal chance to the rest of us.

    2. YetAnotherAnalyst*

      But, what was Ellie’s relationship with LW like before? If she was also catching up socially via video call on slow afternoons and the team just had a weirdly involved dynamic, then yeah, Grayson’s throwing a snit. But on most teams I’ve been on, the weekly social calls would Way Too Close for one person to be with their manager, so I think so resetting of the relationship is called for.
      Full disclosure: my usual interactions with team members tend to be short answers and emojis, so I’m maybe a little biased.

      1. Jake*

        She is more of a team lead than a manager, but I think your point still stands. Grayson might be pulling back too much, but from what I’m reading it isn’t by much.

        That is all contingent on him actually responding to LW with more than an ok or emoji when the work actually requires it though.

  12. Prentice*

    Unless he’s being rude or unpleasant or he’s not communicating with you about work issues the way he needs to, I think you need to let it go. He’ll process it in his own time and it’s not anything actionable from a job performance standpoint. Maybe when you go to this conference, things will thaw a little. Since it’s not affecting his job performance, I don’t think you should bring it up. I think it will make things even worse if you bring it up.

  13. anony34832*

    I am in a similar situation, except I am the Grayson in this case. All, unless you have been in the shoes of someone who lost out on a promotion, AND have a peer now become your boss, it is an extremely tough situation to be in. You can say “I get it” all you want but you will never truly understand unless you have personally been there. I always went above and beyond in my job, and after a new role was created, my peer was promoted and I got “layered”. It has been more than 6 months and I am still trying to get over it. Trying to push back on taking on extra work like I used to and I am at the point same as Grayson where it is like, “What is the point of going above and beyond when it doesn’t even matter anymore?”

    Being the Grayson, the only way that could ever make up for it is seeing if you can also get Grayson a pay raise for his efforts despite not having the title. Otherwise, leave Grayson alone, recognize his accomplishments to your boss, talk to your boss about seeing if there can be another position open and let him be curt if he wants to. As long as the work is getting done, then you who cares if he is curt. This is what just a downside in what you will have to deal with when you are within your own team.

    1. Prentice*

      I agree with you. I had a peer from who was promoted above me into an into a newly created position and I was layered. And I left. Not immediately, but I found another job about five months later. I started looking the day after it happened because I knew I wasn’t going to be happy there. And I knew that the layering meant my path there was limited. They also handled the communications around it very poorly. I was angry, and I expressed my anger when it happened, but after that, I just did my job until I left. I wasn’t monosyllabic about it, but I didn’t have the level of enthusiasm that I had in the past. I didn’t have the desire to fake it and I didn’t feel the need to since I was working hard to find a new position.
      I think people who haven’t been in a similar position don’t understand how demoralizing it is. And in my case, I was also asked to train and teach my new Director a bunch of stuff that they didn’t know that I did know and that you would need to know to do the job… Which begged the question of why they were in the job instead of me. That was hard.

      1. anony34832*

        Thanks for your post! I am so glad I am not the only one who feels demoralized after being “layered” by a peer. Glad to hear that you were able to find a new job though and hope that the setback was worth it. I have had people tell me to just go elsewhere, but it is much easier said than done. Especially when I am at the point in my life where I just want to settle into a job and stay and not have to job search every few years, because it is a huge toll to just drop all the knowledge you gained at your current company, those network connections too and start fresh again and the “bottom” of a new company. So I have been sticking it out just being grateful I have a job and a paycheck, but it is a tough situation to be in. I want to support my colleague because if it was me that was promoted, I certainly don’t want the resentment from my team, but on the other hand, it is tough to put your ego aside and not feel demoralized.

    2. Sloanicota*

      Yes, I feel for both people in this scenario honestly. And usually commenters are quick to say it’s okay to “quiet quit” (hate that term) if you’re not getting rewarded for your efforts. It sounds like that’s kind of where Grayson is. The question for OP ask herself is, once you’re at the point where you quiet quit, what (if anything) could a manager could do to take you back to your previous above-and-beyond performance?

      1. jasmine*

        Yeah, I’m not sure if we’re seeing more against “quiet quitting” here because this time the LW is coming from the opposite perspective (and people are more likely to sympathize with the person writing in?) or because of the gender dynamics.

        1. Apex Mountain*

          Are there gender dynamics? I didn’t see in the OP where the LW mentioned their gender either way

      2. anony34832*

        In the Grayson boat here and the only way to make up for it is a pay raise. I don’t expect the same pay raise as the one who got the promotion, but enough to say that “there could only be one position, and although we could not promote you, we still do recognize your efforts and past performance. The ‘ack of promotion does not mean that we care less about your past contributions.”

    3. hellohello*

      I’ve been in that exact situation, and it sucked and made me feel really disheartened, and I still think that if I’d suddenly gone from friendly and chatty to terse in the way LW describes, it would have been petty of me. It’s not the end of the world, and LW should probably just let this go unless it’s actively affecting her work, but going from regular polite work chat to months of one word responses is a decently unkind way to react to a disappointing situation.

  14. Alice*

    I wonder how often OP has slow Friday afternoon calls with OP’s boss. I do that with colleagues but not with my manager. I exchange work-related jokes via IM with colleagues but not my manager too.
    OP, if you compare the new relationship, not with the old relationship, but with your relationship with your own manager, does it still seem “precious”?

    1. Alice*

      PS
      “he’s ruining what should be a good experience for me”
      Is the “good experience” the conference? Because I don’t think that’s ruined. Even if he were being surly, rather than just cold, the great thing about a conference is that you don’t have to spend time with the people you always spend time with. Enjoy the conference, meet some new people.
      Or, is the “good experience” the promotion itself? If so, I’d reflect: are you not enjoying it because you feel guilty about him not getting promoted, because you miss the close relationship you had, because his behavior is causing productivity problems?
      The first case: this is permission from an anonymous person on the internet to stop feeling guilty. He might feel hurt, but *you* didn’t hurt him.
      The middle case: a close relationship is never going to survive one person becoming the manager (or even the coordinator) — not in the same way at least. It’s not anyone’s fault — it’s just the nature of workplace friendships.
      The last case: I assume you would have mentioned it if this were happening. But if it is, you and your boss will have to deal with it. Won’t be fun but it won’t get better by itself.
      Good luck.

  15. Goldenrod*

    “OP, if you compare the new relationship, not with the old relationship, but with your relationship with your own manager, does it still seem “precious”?”

    Just to point out, it was Alison who characterized Grayson’s behavior as precious, not the OP.

    1. Anonymel*

      Yes, and it happens very rarely that I disagree with Alison, but when I read that word, my first thought was “oh no, that’s not the right word here.”

      1. allathian*

        Indeed. I think that pulling back on all non-essential communication and withdrawing from friendly social banter is a constructive way to deal with disappointment. Especially combined with just doing the job as asked rather than going above and beyond.

        I can certainly think of several less constructive ways to deal with it. As long as Grayson isn’t sabotaging the LW’s work or refusing to complete assignments to standard, that should be enough.

        1. Florence Reece*

          ok

          (saying this to be cheeky because come on, writing something out and getting “ok” or “” feels rude, especially if you know the person and they didn’t previously respond that way. It’s fine to pull back, it’s not fine to be passive-aggressive.)

  16. CubeFarmer*

    I missed out on a promotion three years ago apparently by *this* much. Was I pissed? I was! Was I disappointed? You betcha! Did I have to keep being professional and work with the former colleague who (stabbed me in the back by applying for the job without telling me) was now my manager? Yes!

    I did do one teeny petty thing. It couldn’t be traced back to me, and I make no apologies for it.

    Grayson can be disappointed and angry, but he also needs to grow up, be professional, and figure out a way forward. I used my disappointment as motivation to go back to school and finish my graduate degree and be ready for the next promotion.

    Conversely, OP can use this as an opportunity to reframe the former colleague relationship to a manager/report relationship. Take advantage of the distance to be

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Yes, this. A lot of people are framing this as him trying to adjust to having a former friend as a supervisor/manager, but this is not it. LW is not his boss, and he can at least use his words.

      I once had to tell teen boy 2 to stop being a petulant ass because he didn’t get something he wanted. He asked what “petulant” meant; I told him to look it up. He did, and there was a huge “OH!” look on his face. And he stopped being a petulant ass.

      If a 13-year-old can do it, so can an adult.

      1. New Jack Karyn*

        How much do you hate this guy? You’ve been calling him names up and down the thread.

    3. allathian*

      I bet Grayson is using his disappointment to lean out of this job and focus on getting a new one in his niche field. And I bet he won’t make the mistake of befriending the top performer who might be promoted over him in his next job.

  17. Jacintha*

    I’m not sure I agree with Alison here. Grayson is pulling back because he’s upset, but it doesn’t sound like he’s actually being rude or unprofessional. This is giving me flashbacks to my elementary school teaching days, when I had to tell kids “people are allowed to decide they don’t want to play with you”, and “your friend wanting to play with a different friend today is not bullying”. I get things are awkward between you, but I feel like it’s one of those things that just happens sometimes.

    I do think Alison’s script is fine in a “I miss us being friendlier” kind of way, and if this is a friendship that started through work and not just a proximal situation-ship then hopefully he’d be receptive to moving towards collegiality if not outright friendliness. But again, people are allowed to have feelings and be awkward about them as long as he’s not being snide, rude, or unprofessional.

  18. Anne of Green Gables*

    A lot of people are jumping to gender assumptions, and of course I don’t know that isn’t a factor, but it might not be.

    I was in an extremely similar situation in the past year and in my case, both of the job applicants were female. The other candidate and I were very friendly, easily each other’s closest work friend, and while we didn’t see each other socially outside of work, we did support each other’s personal struggles as well as work ones. (She attended my mother’s funeral; I took her meals after a hospital stay.)

    This time last year, our shared boss resigned. We both applied, and we knew one of would be supervising the other. We both knew the relationship was going to change. When I got the job, communication dropped significantly, and hers to me was in very short sentences. I knew it was a really hard blow for her, and I didn’t push. We’ve slowly gotten back up to a higher level of comradery, though one that is now appropriate for supervisor/supervisee. It took us about 7 months to get to a good place. But I think the fact that I gave her time and let her slowly return to chummy helped–I didn’t force it, but I also didn’t really change how I communicated with her, beyond changes appropriate because I was managing her. (I went from colleagues-to-boss of four employees, but she was the only one who also applied for the higher position.)

  19. I am the LW*

    LW here. Thanks for publishing my letter Alison. I’ve been going back and forth on whether to say something to Grayson or not. I’m a worrier, and my big concern is that I could make things worse (or at least solidify the situation as “a thing”) if I bring it up, but I think you’re probably right that I’ll have to address it if things don’t seem to have improved in a few months.

    1. Goldenrod*

      Hi LW! Just chiming in to say that I think Alison’s advice is great. I would ignore this situation for now, but bring it up later if there continues to be an awkward tone in your interactions.

      One thing I would like to add is…I know a lot of this discussion has been about whether or not gender matters in this situation. Personally, I think it’s just one data point, but that it could matter…a little.

      What I mean is: You’re worried about his feelings, but he doesn’t seem to be worried about yours. Is it possible that you have been socialized to feel guilty when you get a promotion over a male colleague? Is it possible that he has been socialized to feel aggrieved by losing to a female colleague?

      Women are socialized to feel responsible for managing others’ feelings. Is that playing a role here?

      I think these things are not *necessarily* true…but worthwhile to consider. That’s all.
      Maybe they aren’t factors at all.

      But I don’t think it’s wrong to consider the possibility…And I think you should definitely NOT feel guilty and enjoy your promotion. Congrats!!

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      How long has it been since you were promoted? Is Grayson pulling back on communication and collaboration with the other team members, or just with you? Is the lack of collaboration causing real harm to the work?

      1. I am the LW*

        Promotion was four months ago. As far as I know, he is still communicating normally with others (with that said, we normally have a all have a weekly team meeting and for the first one after the promotion was announced he basically said nothing at all, which is a big departure from his normal behaviour). Since then he seems to have course-corrected in the team meetings and I haven’t heard anything that suggests he’s being weird with the others (but I haven’t mentioned what I’m experiencing to others so possibly they’re also not mentioning their experiences to me).

        I’m very conscious of the fact that we’re on a small team, so I’ve been wary of bringing it up with anyone else in case it further affects the dynamic.

        1. Insert Clever Name Here*

          So he was quiet in a meeting where he is usually an active participant a week after he learned he didn’t get the promotion, and now he doesn’t reach out to you for social stuff? If that’s all it is…let it go. I’m sorry a relationship that used to be warm and friendly is no longer that way, but we’re all allowed to change how friendly we are with people. I think you need to look really hard at if work is truly suffering — are you still getting the WORK information you need from him? Is he still giving you feedback when you directly ask for it (which you’ve mentioned previously is a required interaction between your team)? Is that feedback still valid and useful? If the answer to those questions is “no” then that’s problematic. But I can’t tell from your replies if that’s the case.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      How visible is his behavior to other people? It’s possible that if it is, other people might call him out on this and you won’t have to.

      Then again, he may be job searching at this point, which would make sense if he really wants a promotion because it’s not likely to happen here.

      1. I am the LW*

        Not visible at all, because it’s only happening when I message him directly (which is a normal part of the workflow and processes of the team).

    4. meggus*

      If you’re now the team coordinator and in a supervisory position, that changes the dynamics of the professional relationship. you’re no longer a peer.

    5. Blarg*

      I’d almost feel like a conference is a time when this will be less awkward? Unless you are co-hosting an exhibitor booth or co-presenting, I rarely spend much time with my co-workers at external conferences. I spend far more time with colleagues from other agencies, networking (though I struggle with it as an introvert!), etc. I’ve even had conferences where we’ve done a shared spreadsheet with the schedule so that we didn’t have overlap at sessions, to maximize how many sessions someone from our org attended/could learn from. Also, because of that introvert thing, I avoid after hours meals/drinks unless it is with someone I can’t get time with otherwise, so that I can rest and recharge.

      Which is all to say, I wouldn’t worry about this in the slightest, nor probably notice it if a coworker avoided me during a conference. :)

  20. Lab Boss*

    LW, it’s not too late to sit Grayson down and talk very directly about how to move forward with the new positions. Way back in the day, I ended up in a neck-and-neck race with an approximate peer to manage my department. She got the nod, I didn’t. One of the first orders of business was for us to sit down, confirm we were still good, and talk about how we could work effectively together with me as the most senior and expert individual contributor and her as the manager.

    Yes, I was disappointed. No, we weren’t immediately friends. But she acknowledged my expertise and how important my work was going to be going forward, and I made sure she knew that I wouldn’t be undermining her out of resentment, and we’re running up on a decade working together with her pulling me along behind her rising star and me shoving her up the ladder with a more on-the-ground project-oriented viewpoint. There’s probably room for you and Grayson to get somewhere like that.

    1. Lab Boss*

      Edited to add: no need to wait months, and no need to make this discussion primarily about how he’s acting. If you focus on results and contributions, you can set the stage well for a productive relationship (and figure out along the way if he’s less friendly out of dissatisfaction, or just putting less effort in now because he can’t advance, or is trying to be formal because you’re the boss, or what).

    2. stk*

      I really agree with this! Given you previously had a good relationship, LW, if you can, it might be worth using the next organic opportunity to discuss with Grayson what the future could look like at the company and reframe for him that you being his boss could mean good things for him. Even if there isn’t an opportunity for promotion explicitly, is there stuff like training, cooler projects, stretch projects which might be an option for him? Or perks which might become possible, like more PTO or something? Even something like training or a feedback session where he could share expertise? Grayson sounds like he is being a little bit dramatic about it, but good people can absolutely react in petty ways to disappointment, and maybe something to work towards/a sense of appreciation in his work would help.

      Not that you need to coddle him or go overboard in telling him he’s great if he’s not – that would seem fake in any case! – but it sounds like you do value him and his work. If so I don’t think it could hurt to let him know that a bit and make sure he knows you’re looking out for him. Hearing positive things from you is also likely to make you sound confident and boss-like in the good way. If he’s feeling ruffled, it might help him settle his feelings about you being the boss by making that seem clearly just The Way It Is Now.

  21. Pandas*

    In these situations I feel like it’s helpful to imagine your coworker as a brand new employee. If Grayson started today, and communicated with you the way he is right now, would you have any issue with it? If the answer is no, then you should leave things alone and work on accepting that this is your new dynamic. If the answer is yes, what specific things would you coach the new employee on? These are the things you can bring up with Grayson. Also, be careful to think through what is Grayson’s actual job description and what he used to go above and beyond to do. Some of what feels like pull back to you might actually be Grayson no longer going above and beyond. One of the fastest ways to alienate your staff is to expect them to work like they’re still gunning for a promotion when that promotion is now off the table.

    1. Lab Boss*

      One of the boldest moves I’ve made in my career was, when a promotion was in jeopardy, sitting down for a discussion of all the extra work I’d been doing to prepare for it and how I would be dropping all that extra work if I wasn’t promotable. It’s a little different situation but making my management realize they couldn’t just keep getting promotion-gunning work out of me without actually promoting me ended up keeping things moving.

  22. Sara*

    Ok – I have no additional thoughts, I think everyone else has covered it. But I wanted to acknowledge these names are from Cougar Town, right? I loved that show and hope you’ve cast yourself as Laurie in this instance.

    1. Apex Mountain*

      I didn’t know that, but I was picturing the colleague as Grayson Allen, who’s considered one of the most annoying NBA/Duke basketball players around, so it fit very well.

  23. Carol the happy*

    I’m a woman, and was put in the Grayson role. The winner, “Rock Star”, had been a good work-buddy. I was really hurt because well, it hurt! (I was also going through a divorce, which made unfairness bite harder.) We had a conference to attend 6 months later, and I was reserved and concise (sad and sulky) the whole time. I went to the convention with no real expectations ir enthusiasm .

    “Rock” went to all the “meet and greets” with me, introduced me around, talked up how lucky he was that I always had his back, and then he stepped back. He said that I had been up for his job but was newer at the company. (Yep, by 3 weeks…)
    I wound up being invited to a panel dinner, made several contacts and a couple of friends I still keep on touch with. He also joked that he won the coin toss, but it was 2 out of 3.

    OP, is there any way you can do something like this?
    It helped me on several levels, and I’ll never forget it.

    1. kt*

      I love this comment — thank you for adding it, Carol the happy! This is a great example of how to step up in this kind of situation.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      Thank you for sharing this example. I agree that the LW may be best served by taking the high road here.

    3. stk*

      I just made a comment upthread when i should have read this first, because this was basically what I meant!

  24. Insert Pun Here*

    I work in a similar niche industry where jobs are scarce, and I gotta tell ya, someone needs to mention to Grayson that he might want to play the long game here. OP gets a new job/moves/retires/inherits a couple million and all of a sudden, Grayson (who sounds like he missed this promotion by a hair) is the best person for the job. Bam, done. All this angst over nothing.

    In small/niche fields, you have to keep as many options open as you can.

    1. SansaStark*

      I was thinking the same thing. I was Grayson once and I was annoyed at all the things, too, but about a year later, Grayson took a VERY unexpected new role and who was waiting in the wings with a great interview because she knew a lot of inside information about what Grayson’s job entailed/what they wanted because she never burned that bridge with him? Me. I’m still friends with my Grayson many years later. It wasn’t his fault that he was the first pick at the time we both interviewed. If anything, I was annoyed with our boss more than him.

    2. kate83493*

      Agreed. For anyone that is in Grayson’s shoes, you can play the long game. At a company I used to work for, manager positions are hard to come by because at the office I was at, people stayed for decades! When there was an opening available, it was down to two people. Of course the person who did not get it felt slighted and thought that the chances of ever moving up was to move out! Low and behold, about two years later, the promoted manager ended up leaving! Bottom line is, office culture changes. Positions open up because people eventually move on. Business evolves and I even witnessed a completely brand new team get created with even more positions and manager positions open up.

    3. Boof*

      This is really good. OP, if this sounds like your situation, kindness for you will do a lot to reset Grayson’s feelings about the situation I think, even if it takes time. If you think they are great don’t hesitate to say it and advocate for them too.

  25. Pretty as a Princess*

    LW, are you expecting a lot of “togetherness” at this conference? There’s so much good conversation here about the overall work relationship so I won’t hit on that, but in terms of the conference – I wonder if you are worrying about this more than you should.

    You aren’t going to “spend three days with” him. You don’t have to hang out with your coworker all the time at the conference. You don’t have to have lunch with him. You don’t need to sit with him in sessions, etc. You don’t need to sit together on flights, etc, even if you need to share a rental car, for example. I’ve attended plenty of conferences “with” people who personally I can’t stand. That doesn’t keep anyone from being productive and achieving the organization’s goals. You can reach out to Grayson and say hey, what sessions are you most interested in, lets make a plan to make sure that between us, every important session for our employer is attended by at least one of us, and agree on how we will share notes. You may collectively decide that you should have a checkin each morning or whatever – but you definitely do not need to spend three days glued together.

  26. RebPar*

    Also – don’t know how large this conference is, but: It would actually be better for your organization for the two of you to attend different sessions (and then report back to the team). And it’s perfectly okay to not be social with colleagues at conferences – so don’t feel like you need to force camaraderie that doesn’t exist (due to Grayson’s behavior). Enjoy time away from the office, network like it’s your job (it is!), and learn a lot.

  27. 34avemovieguy*

    Sorry I don’t think it’s fair to call Grayson precious. Bro is going through it but staying professional.

  28. Spicy Tuna*

    At my first job out of college, I transferred to another branch office after 2 years and my new colleague felt very threatened by me. He was very brusque and curt with me. I was a little disappointed because everyone at my previous office were so friendly with each other. I realized it was because he thought I would be competition for our boss’s job. I wasn’t interested in our boss’s job at all, and eventually, when our boss got promoted and my colleague got his job, the relationship got (marginally) better.

    On the flip side… at a later job, I temporarily took over a role that would be a promotion for me. It was temporary because frankly, I didn’t have the experience to be in the role, but it was an emergency and I stepped up to the challenge. Well, the company had a TERRIBLE time getting people with experience to take the role, so as the months went on, I got better and more skilled in the role. I threw my hat in the ring and interviewed for the position. My boss and grandboss were honest that they really, really would prefer someone with more experience.

    I was getting really demoralized at the stream of candidates traipsing past my desk for interviews for MY job (duties performed while I was also doing the actual job I was hired to do) and resolved that if I didn’t get the role, I would quit.

    As it turned out… I got the role! I know it was only because no one else wanted it, but still. However, in this instance, I 100% would have been Grayson and I would not have felt warm and welcoming to the person who got the job. Professional – yes! Friendly…. NOPE!

  29. kate83493*

    Agree with other commenters that there is a difference between being “professional” and being “friendly”. As long as he is professional, you need to let him be. OP, have you put yourself in Grayson’s shoes? It’s ok to just be professional as long as the work is getting done.

  30. Jake*

    LW, if you’re reading this, can you address whether or not Grayson’s work requires him to collaborate with you on stuff? I think a big component of whether he is being precious or a problem is contingent upon:

    a. Do you guys need to collaborate on work and

    b. Is he still doing that successfully, just without the socialization?

    Unless a. is yes and b. is no, I think this isn’t an inherently unreasonable set of behaviors from somebody that is probably trying to address the rightful concern of having a friendship with his team lead.

    1. Jake*

      All that being said, I’m a fan of just addressing it head on if it is really bothering you, regardless of the answers to those questions.

  31. Don Quixote, Man of Tuchanka*

    Don’t be surprised if Grayson has mentally checked out because he’s already looking and applying at other companies for positions similar to the one he missed out on. Has he become similarly withdrawn from others on the team? There’s every chance LW’s concerns about the conference in November will turn out to be irrelevant, because Grayson will have left for another job by then.

    I think if he’s doing his job and communicating professionally, there’s no problem. It’s not reasonable (or feasible) to compel him to be all smiles and sunshine if he isn’t feeling it.

    As a long-time reader and first-time poster I also have to say the attitude of some of the other commentators here is disturbing. It seems like a lot of people are very quick to condemn Grayson as a resentful, seething ball of toxic masculinity simply because he is a man. There’s nothing in either the original letter or in any of LW’s comments here to suggest anything of the sort.

  32. Hroethvitnir*

    I deeply feel that someone being monosyllabic for months is just “pulling back” or “being more formal” is intellectually dishonest. I would be shocked if even half the people insisting here that he’s acting totally within the norm would be OK with having a coworker act like this to them.

    The fact of the matter is most of us expect a modicum of pleasantness from ourselves and others when upset by something at work, and this is pushing it.

    It’s worth noting that Alison has *absolutely* told managers writing here when it reads like an employee is rightfully pulling back and probably going to leave. It’s different here because similar bones do not an identical situation make.

    I hope Grayson can pull himself together, whether or not that involves leaving.

    1. MCMonkeyBean*

      Seriously, I honestly can’t believe there are so many people here genuinely suggesting that never saying anything other than “ok” is “perfectly professional.” It’s not like they were best friends before and OP is trying to hang out or even have personal conversations. If you cannot say more than literally one single word in every conversation with your coworkers than you are absolutely *not* being professional!

      I agree I’d have some room to allow him to be upset, and my first thought was the same as Alison that by November he might be over it. But I’m not sure how long this has been going on so far. It says the new role was announced “at the beginning of the year.” If it’s already been 3 or 4 months of it than he is being beyond ridiculous. It’s not even like this is some role he’s been working toward for years or anything, it didn’t previously exist! He’s no worse off than he was a year ago. Frankly he needs to either let it go or quit and go look for work somewhere else.

      1. Florence Reece*

        Yeah, I’m really surprised at this too. The LW clarified upthread that it’s been like this for 4 months and people are still saying that’s “professional” and that it’s fine for him to be obviously “quiet quitting” (not what that means at all IMO but okay).

        If he’s saying “ok” to easy requests like “can you pick up XYZ tasks”, yeah, fair enough. If he’s saying “ok” or doing a thumbs up if OP asks how a project is going or asks for input…let’s be real, most of us would read that, accurately, as passive-aggressive. He’s allowed to be disappointed, he’s allowed to cease the more-friendly aspects of his relationship with his new team lead, but most of us will be put off by obvious scorn from a coworker. Even the extremely introverted, borderline antisocial folks here. I can think of many letters about icing coworkers out where the behavior reads exactly the same as this and the response is that it’s unprofessional. It’s baffling that personal sympathies for his situation seem to change the equation for so many responses here.

  33. DE*

    I don’t think Grayson is doing anything unethical but OP certainly would if he demanded Greyson be talkative with him again. That’s not going to lead to a genuine friendship.

  34. meggus*

    LW, just a friendly reminder that how he’s acting isn’t about you, even if he’s directing it at you. We’re not responsible for managing other people’s emotions, but unfortunately some people fail to be responsible for managing their own, or struggle with it more than others. It is, ultimately, his issue to work out with himself that doesn’t require any change on your part, and apparently he does need some time to process this. It’s awkward and uncomfortable i’m sure, but remember *it’s not about you* – giving him space to process while still providing him respect and courtesy is often the best thing you can do. If it’s not interfering with work being done or disrupting other areas, maybe he just needs some time.

    It sounds like you’ve moved into a supervisory position over your coworkers though (team coordinator), meaning those new dynamics need to be considered. Being open, casual, and friendly with a peer/coworker is a different dynamic than holding that with someone who manages you in any capacity, and as someone who’s been promoted to manage teams i was once part of, it’s not always easy to make that shift, especially if you’re on a small or very close-knit team. Moving into a supervisory position means your work relationship is no longer peer-peer, and that can also be a difficult shift for folks to make with coworkers they consider friends.

  36. Faidah*

    Seems like I’m going against the crowd here, but I don’t see a problem with Grayson’s behavior at all. When you become someone’s manager, generally the peer relationship ends. I would not have private Friday video chats with or joke around with my own manager, nor should I be expected to. I don’t see his behavior as rude or disgruntled: I see it as a normal change in relationship to someone who used to be a peer, but is now my boss.

    And for the record, I’m a woman and the comments claiming they hate it when men can’t stand it when a woman succeeds irritate me. There’s an extremely obvious, reasonable explanation for his change in behavior, and it should not immediately be attributed to sexism. That’s ridiculous.

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