my coworker with OCD wants to control how I do everything

by Alison Green on July 16, 2024

A reader writes:

I have a coworker — let’s call him Sergeant Duke — who is a pretty nice guy. We’re in the military, are the same rank, and have a similar level of experience. Aside from a personality clash with one other coworker, Sergeant Duke gets along with everyone, is good at his job, and doesn’t make a big fuss.

Except for one small thing: dear Sergeant Duke has diagnosed Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and has to instruct me (and everyone else) on EVERYTHING. Here are just a few examples:
* the best route to get to my house (he lives in a different town)
* how to call the local clinic to make an appointment (while I was on the phone with them making an appointment)
* what classes to take for my degree (he’s in a completely different program at a different school)
* how to map a printer, where the post office is, how to eat to lose weight/gain muscle, etc…

I must stress that in not a single one of the instances have I asked for guidance. He simply seems to feel that he knows best when it comes to everything and must give his input.

He also has a habit of telling me what to do when our supervisor is out, even though we’re the same rank:
* “You can go ahead and take your lunch at eleven if you want.”
* “You can leave now for your appointment if you like.”
* “I’m going to be out the rest of the day so just go home at our regular time.”

I understand it’s somewhat out of his control. And he’s a great guy. He wants everyone to succeed and wants the job to get done. It’s just that I find the constant direction-giving to be a nuisance, even though I know it’s mostly harmless. And it’s not as if I’m being targeted particularly, I just sit closest to him in our office.

I’ve recently gotten some bad health news and I’m worried about him finding out because I don’t want to hear what he has to say on the matter. It’s gotten to the point where I don’t speak to him very much at all.

How can I politely set boundaries or redirect Sergeant Duke when he gets into one of these spiels? The last thing I want is to harbor any resentment towards him when I know it’s likely almost impossible for him to control.

What happens when you tell him to stop?

Ideally when he meddles you’d be saying things like:

* “I don’t need advice on that, thanks.” (Feel free to leave off the “thanks,” depending on how annoyed you are.)
* “I’ve got this covered. I’m not looking for input.”
* “You don’t need to tell me when to take lunch.”
* “Please don’t tell me things like when to take lunch.”
* “Please let me manage my own schedule.”

If he keeps going after you’ve told him to stop, feel free to say, “I’m not going to keep discussing this” and turn away. You can say this cheerfully! It’s clear that you mostly like the guy and don’t want to make things tense with him, and this might sound awfully chilly when you picture it your head — but you can say it warmly and just decline to keep engaging without it having to be a big confrontation.

If you try all this and it doesn’t change his behavior, well, you tried. It probably won’t change his behavior, in fact, if he’s struggling with a compulsion — but it may slow him down and, if nothing else, you’ll be putting up a boundary for yourself. You can’t control what he does, but you can put up a clear boundary on your side and then decline to engage.

That said, if he tries to discuss your bad health news, please go ahead and be more aggressive. It’s fine in that situation to say, “I do not want to discuss this, and I need you to not bring it up with me again.” If he keeps trying, that’s worth escalating. You’re kind to want to be understanding that his behavior stems from a medical condition, but that doesn’t mean he gets to trample all over your medical privacy (and nor would that be considered a reasonable accommodation for OCD).

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    There are a bunch of derails below about whether the coworker actually has OCD or not. No one here is in a position to know and it’s quickly becoming derailing, so please focus on actionable advice for the letter-writer. Thank you.

  2. Baela Targaryen*

    I’ve had good luck with a smile and “I don’t need this explained to me, thanks!”

    1. Leave Hummus Alone*

      That’s a great one! My sister’s MIL was once criticizing the way she cut peppers (yep). My sister just smiled at her and said, “We each have our own style!” and continued to cut the peppers her way.

      1. Lacey*

        That’s so mature of her and not something I would have managed. But I’m definitely going to keep it in mind for the next time I’m in a situation like that!

        1. PhyllisB*

          My sister-in-law has an answer that will stop you in your tracks. We were on a family vacation, and she was making…something in the kitchen, and as “helpful” older person I was giving her tips. First two she just smiled and kept going. By the third one (what was WRONG with me???) she turned to me and said, “Just who is screwing this cat?” I was speechless for a second and then burst out laughing. So now I pull this out from time to time. Obviously, this wouldn’t be appropriate at work, but with a friend or family, it just might work.

          1. Sloanicota*

            Ha! I once said (nicely) to my friend who is very Like This, “you know, I once heard that unsolicited advice is criticism.” He of course started sputtering that obviously he wasn’t criticizing, he just wanted to help, jeez … but he did sort of trail off and after that I saw a difference in how often he piped up with “halpful” suggestions. I think it helped that I said it brightly, like I was just suggesting a fun new idea I was repeating that I’d heard somewhere.

            2. Sergeant Weary*

              Hello, original LW here! I recently heard that, too! “Unsolicited advice is just criticism.” I feel like that could have a good effect on helping Sergeant Duke realize he’s crossing a line. Thank you!

            3. Love me, love my cat*

              “Unsolicited advice is criticism.” I know Alison is not a fan of sending anonymous memos to people, but I should send this to a family member who *really* needs to hear this message. Can’t deliver it in person, because she is only being helpful, because she loves us so much. And would dump all the forces of hell on us if we suggested otherwise.

      2. KGD*

        That’s amazing – my favourite phrase when my MIL criticized my parenting was “Isn’t it interesting how many ways there are of doing things?” She’s pretty much stopped now and I think a big reason for that is I never let her turn things into an argument. I find with people like this the key is to stay totally confident in the fact that they have no actual power over what you do. They can have an opinion, you can smile and ignore it, and the whole thing just fizzles out. It wouldn’t work with a more determined meddler, but it works really well with people who are committed to seeming polite.

        1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

          “ I find with people like this the key is to stay totally confident in the fact that they have no actual power over what you do. They can have an opinion, you can smile and ignore it, and the whole thing just fizzles out”

          Hear, hear!!

        2. Zombeyonce*

          I had to threaten my MIL with losing access to her grandkids when she went on and on every time I saw her about my son’s long hair. She threatened to cut it the next time she watched him, so unfortunately she did have power over what we did in that way, but only temporarily. Luckily, that power can be removed in a lot of cases if necessary, and she knew I was serious about it.

        1. Jackalope*

          For a bigger or a repeat issue, I’ve said something along the lines of, “Yes, that can also be a good way to do things, and I can see why some people might choose to do it that way. I’ve chosen to do it this way because it’s what works best for me.” This won’t work in all situations but I’ve found it useful if someone is insisting that their method is a good (or the best) method.

        2. PurpleShark*

          I usually say, “thank you for your input.” I also resist explaining why I am doing something my way in circumstances where I haven’t asked and advice is provided. My end goal to not accept further unwanted advice is what I want. I do sometimes get, “well I’m just trying to help.” To which I reply same as above, “and I thanked you for your input.”

        3. Aerin*

          “Hmm, I’ll think about that, thanks.” And you will think about it. You will think it’s very stupid and then toss it aside.

        5. LaurCha*

          With my mom, I ask “Oh, do you want to do this instead?” She never wants to. I then turn around and keep doing it my way. YMMV because it’s pretty passive aggressive, but that works on her.

          I’m still salty about the time she grabbed a kitchen knife out of my hand to show me how to chop tomatoes. Rude AND dangerous.

        6. The Bigger the Hair…the closer to god*

          My favorite…”I’m driving this bus. When you drive the bus, you can drive however you want. Right now, I’m driving the bus.”

        7. Elle*

          I don’t use this unless the unwanted advice giver is really egregious, but I like a “wow, that’s so interesting!” folllwed by changing 0% of what I’m doing.

        8. Felicia Fancybottom*

          I kept indifferently saying okay to my dad’s “suggestions” (hot takes on a difficult situation I was trying to work through) until he blew up and said “but it isn’t okay!” I said I knew it wasn’t but I was an adult and didn’t have to do what he told me to do anymore. I think that was the first time that had ever occurred to him and he hasn’t done it since. Sure it took til I was 33, but we got there!

          1. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

            Ha, my mom knows just enough therapy talk to get upset when I do coping strategies like this. “You’re grey-rocking me!” Well… yeah. The way you’re behaving is painful and absurd.

            1. Zombeyonce*

              Therapy speak right back to her. Throw a nice “And why do you think that is?” at her.

          2. Princess Pumpkin Spice*

            Do we have the same dad? I will ok and uh huh his “guidance” until he gets frustrated and storms away. It makes him stop and is great fun for me and my mother.

        9. Irish Teacher.*

          When I was at college, the college chaplain regularly told me about retreats and so on that I had no interest in. My constant response was “thank you for letting me know about that.”

        10. Who_Is_Dat_Is*

          My go-to with my mother is “Oh, did you want this done your way, or did you want me to do it?” in a very matter-of-fact, you-only-get-to-choose-one tone.

        12. Middle Aged Lady*

          “I will take that under advisement.”

          “Oh, you want to do this task? I didn’t realize that.” Drop tools, walk away.

        13. Recovering the satellites*

          “You gotta do what works for you, I’m happy with what works for me.”

    2. Salad*

      The commentariat have such eloquent and sometimes lengthy responses. Mine is much closer to yours: “Oh, no thanks!” and if they push again, “No thanks, I’ve got this!” Such a clipped reply said in a chipper way without stopping what I’m doing usually puts them back on their heels, lol

      1. kicking-k*

        This is what I would do. My husband has quite severe OCD and there is NOTHING that will stop him from asking if I have locked the door and turned off all the lights (etc). He doesn’t think I’m stupid or careless, and he knows these things aren’t his responsibility, but he cannot stop himself asking because it is a compulsion. He feels pretty bad about it.

        A lot of these other phrases would probably work on someone who’s merely bossy or acting out of misplaced helpfulness. This isn’t that, and I’d honestly suggest that letting him say his piece (even if you tune him out) may be the most streamlined way to keep the interaction short.

        1. Aardvark*

          The difference is that you have chosen to be with your husband who has OCD and realise this is something that it part of the relationship. OP is at work and does not have the same obligation to but up with someone else’s behaviour that distresses them.

          Workplace accommodations for disabilities and differences have to be reasonable, and just letting him carry on isn’t reasonable. Accommodations for one person shouldn’t overly negatively impact others.

          (I am also thinking to the worker from a couple of weeks ago who wanted complete control of the music everyone could hear as an accommodation. That was not reasonable. Allowing him to wear headphones so he had control of what he listened to would be.)

    3. tree frog*

      Agreed. I think the LW is overthinking how much they need to accommodate this coworker’s bossiness because of his diagnosis. I have seen this come up with anxiety and other conditions as well. It comes from a kind place, but it’s okay to tell someone not to do something that bothers you even if you can empathize with their reason for doing it. Channel that empathy into being warm and friendly when you tell him to cut it out.

  3. Graph*

    I just want to say as someone with OCD, kudos to both the letter writer’s understanding of this (possible) manifestation of OCD and their sensitivity to it as well as to Allison for her response. I appreciate the grace you both give this colleague while working to maintain LW’s boundaries. Applause!

    2. Guacamole Bob*

      +1

      One thing to add, as someone with family members with various forms of OCD and anxiety: OP should absolutely not feel bad about setting reasonable boundaries and enforcing them. Not only is it reasonable from the perspective of someone trying to have a functional workplace, it’s likely a totally fine response on a more human level, too.

      I had to draw a line and say that I can’t listen to a relative’s obsessive anxious rumination about specific topics. And what we both learned is that it’s not actually helpful when I do cater to it and listen to those concerns endlessly. It’s better for both of us when I decline to listen, and if that causes distress then it’s a matter for a therapist and not my issue to fix by catering to the anxious thoughts.

      1. Mid*

        My ex-partner had fairly severe OCD, and she said that letting her ruminate on her compulsions made it worse, and that I should specifically point out the pattern when I see it and not engage with it. That was the strategy she and her therapist felt worked best for her, and seems to be fairly common advice for supporting people with OCD.

        1. Graph*

          Yes! Exposure response prevention (ERP) is the gold standard in OCD therapy. Trying not to engage (and having loved ones support you in that — meaning, for example, not reassuring the sufferer) is the way to go. I’ve had such great success with ERP.

          1. Guacamole Bob*

            I should clarify: I don’t think OP should set boundaries because he thinks it would be good for his colleague – that’s well beyond appropriate involvement in mental health treatment for a colleague. But OP doesn’t want to cause unnecessary distress, and I hope that knowing that good boundaries with others can be actually beneficial for treatment would make him more comfortable that he’s probably not exacerbating things for his colleague if he responds with the kind of statements that Alison recommends.

            It feels pretty crummy to disengage from someone who’s clearly distressed or anxious, but with OCD-type anxiety it can be the right thing to do.

            1. Graph*

              Oh yeah, we agree. I was just info sharing because OCD is so poorly understood by the general population and this comment was a nice jumping-off point to emphasize. Not LW’s job to manage their colleague’s OCD treatment.

            2. Freya*

              I’ve said to my husband “my brain is saying THIS to me, and I know it’s not true, but it’s not going to get logic-ed out of this position, and I’d rather you didn’t have to deal with me being angry at my own brain, so can we please do this other thing?”

              1. Freya*

                One of the things I adore about my husband is that he listens to me when I say things like that. Apparently he thinks it’s a really easy thing to do (listening like that) and my history of people getting cranky with me or continuing to try to logic my brain out of being illogical just baffles him. But every time he does, he’s putting another tiny pop stick into the building of “it’s ok to ask” in my brain.

    3. Ashley*

      Agreed, and same.

      My OCD is perpetuated by PTSD and an adrenal disorder; I am constantly checking in the same way as the LW’s colleague. Usually it only affects myself, but it can affect others if I’m really stressed.

      I let people know that when I’m struggling with triggers (which is when I go into checking mode), to just say, “I’m good, thanks!” If the LW chooses, they could suggest to Duke that he stand down in response to a code phrase.

      It’s not LW’s responsibility to do so, but it may help Duke realise how often it’s happening and thereby help him cull the habit.

      1. AF Vet*

        Thinking back to the Army folks I’ve served with, “Stand down, soldier. I got this.” said with warmth might be a great phrase to help Sgt Duke realize he’s crossing that line.

      2. Be Kind Please Rewind*

        I use this phrase often with a coworker who I suspect is dealing with a few things in her life but it comes out as asking me way too many questions via Teams about a topic that is not something I handle. Or if I ask a question and she won’t simply give a yes or no answer but deep dives into research and offering options. I simply say “I’m good, thanks!” and if she keeps going (in teams), I keep repeating “I’m good, thanks!” (I can’t try to have these convos in person because she will keep talking out loud long after I’ve left her office. She is someone who talks AT people – long after they’ve walked away.)

    4. ChimingIn*

      As another reader with OCD, who appreciates how varied its presentation can be, it seems unclear if the co-worker’s behaviour is a symptom of his OCD or if OP is just assuming that it is.

      I think Alison’s advice still stands, but it’s important to remember that someone with OCD can have personality flaws that are completely unrelated to their disorder. I would hesitate to link this behaviour with the colleague’s disorder, unless they explicitly made it clear that this was a compulsion.

      1. PhD survivor*

        This was my exact thought as someone who also has OCD. I don’t think it’s helpful for the OP to assume this behavior is due to OCD. I’d recommend the OP politely and firmly decline the advice the same way they would do if anyone were behaving this way.

        1. Observer*

          . I don’t think it’s helpful for the OP to assume this behavior is due to OCD. I’d recommend the OP politely and firmly decline the advice the same way they would do if anyone were behaving this way

          Agreed. I’d only add that I think it’s not helpful for the OP to assume either way.

        2. sparkle emoji*

          Yep, I have several loved ones with OCD and I was a psych major in college and this behavior doesn’t seem like the only possible reason could be OCD. It could be, but plenty of people without OCD do the same thing. It may be an annoying personality trait separate from his OCD. The assumption LW is making that the two are connected is making things feel more fraught. I think you can proceed the same way you would if there was no OCD diagnosis, be kind but direct about shutting it down.

      2. Graph*

        Agreed! That’s why I wrote, “…this (possible) manifestation…”

        Apologies if I came off suggesting otherwise.

      3. Genevieve*

        Yeah, that was my confusion, too. I don’t know if OP knows this is directly as a result of OCD. or is just assuming. I have OCD that also can result in “checking in” with other people, although exactly not like this.

        Who knows if coworker’s behavior is entirely due to OCD, entirely unrelated personality quirk, or a combo (most likely, I think, but obviously I can’t know), but either way, OP should absolutely firmly and politely set boundaries and push back. OCD is pretty much never helped by indulging it, and either way, OP certainly isn’t responsible for doing that. OP just needs to be professional, kind when it’s warranted, and firm.

    5. Salad!*

      This! Sometimes I can’t NOT say the “help” that springs to mind, because I have OCD and autism and therefore my brain is wired for procedural efficiency. It’s a weird form of obsession and if I don’t say it, it just builds and builds whether I want it to or not. I’ve been working on the “do you want advice right now, or are you just looking to converse?” and it’s been helpful.

      Honestly, I’m going to send this article to my wife. Sometimes I probably do need her to tell me “we aren’t talking about this anymore” a lot more than she does

      1. Nonsense*

        I’m curious, but would writing down your advice/comment help to get the thought out so it doesn’t build, or does that not trigger the same interaction as speaking does?

        1. BubbleTea*

          Not the same commenter, but for me the issue is that I’ve said it before my brain has recognised that this isn’t a situation where my input is needed, so there’s no point at which I could write it down instead of saying it.

        2. Salad!*

          I’ve actually tried that in the past with a notes app, but half the time I’m talking before I even realize it’s happening, haha.

      2. Rosyglasses*

        ” therefore my brain is wired for procedural efficiency. It’s a weird form of obsession and if I don’t say it, it just builds and builds whether I want it to or not”

        You have described my brain in words that sound so simple but I don’t know that I’ve ever put this together in this way before. Thank you.

        1. Salad!*

          I’m so glad it was helpful! I’m really lucky that I’ve found a job where most of my coworkers and bosses are also neurodivergent, so they’ve really helped me figure out how to communicate what the hell is happening in my brain better.

      3. londonedit*

        Oh, wow, this is exactly what my mum does. We’re pretty sure she has some form of AD(H)D, but she totally does the ‘I must say the thing’ thing too. Even if you say ‘OK, thanks!’ she’ll carry on with ‘…because I just think if you go to the supermarket in the morning, it’ll be less busy…’ ‘Yep, will do!’ ‘…and you’ll have time to pop back here before lunch…’ ‘Yep, absolutely, that’s the plan!’ ‘…and then you know you’ve got everything…’ ‘Yep!!’ It can be really annoying, but I try my best to take a breath and accept that it’s how her brain works and she won’t be happy until she’s said the entire piece about whatever it is she’s trying to advise on.

    1. Observer*

      I was thinking this, too.

      But it doesn’t really matter. His behavior needs to be treated the same way regardless.

    2. Jake*

      OP says he’s a diagnosed OCD where he has to do this. I think it’s safe to say that at least part if not the vast majority of this is a compulsion.

      1. sparkle emoji*

        I do think it’s worth flagging for the LW that it may not be connected to the OCD actually. The idea that it must be a Mental Health Thing makes it feel more stressful. Unless he’s said it’s connected to a compulsion, the idea that the two are connected is an assumption. The advice for setting a clear boundary would be the same if this is a compulsion or just a run-of-the-mill annoying behavior. LW, you’re kind to consider the OCD and smart to ask for help, but you deserve to exist at work without this scrutiny, whatever the reason why.

    3. Anonymel*

      Same thought. I know several people with OCD and they HAVE to be in control of “their own world” but none of them has ever imposed their OCD on me and tried to force me into their paradigm. Obviously, anecdotal but still, he sounds like maybe he’s also a bit of a control freak/micromanagey type, above and beyond his “diagnosed OCD” and that is 100% okay for the OP to (as cheerfully or firmly as he/she desires) to call him out about.

      1. Snoodence Pruter*

        It can happen, I think. Personally I’ve had compulsions to check my family for specific symptoms (which is what made me go get help, because it is not fair to inflict that on my family). I will say, though, that this sounds oddly *less* specific than a compulsion – he doesn’t seem to be worried about one particular thing here, or carrying out one specific action. He’s just trying to control absolutely everything. Which is related to OCD for sure but… hm. Well. Anyway.

        1. Snoodence Pruter*

          (I’m revising my view on this after reading further down the comments, actually. I could believe in this as a presentation of OCD.)

        2. Mockingjay*

          “He’s just trying to control absolutely everything.”

          Yes. And no.

          The military has a lot of people like this. It comes with arcane procedures, hierarchy that predates ancient Rome, and a system of cadre training (see: Rome). You do things the same way, for reasons no one remembers, but it’s How Things Must Be Done and you must help your fellow teammates do the same. You get rewarded for staying within the lines and making sure your teammates do too.

          OCD might exacerbate someone’s tendency to offer frequent, unsolicited guidance on How To Do Things Right, but it’s not the cause in this situation. It’s pretty common in the military. Alison’s advice will work just fine.

          (For the record: Hubby served and I have worked as a military contractor my entire career. I see this all the time and am guilty of doing the same to my own coworkers. – Sorry! I really am only trying to be helpful!)

    4. hohumdrum*

      I mean…does that matter for the advice given?

      Why is this comment section already turning into a debate about whether the OCD is real or not? How does that help the LW? Is LW going to go back into work and demand medical proof or something?

      I’m convinced a lot of people on this site get pulled into doing this because they want permission to dislike the antagonist and give snarky advice & sassy comebacks, so they want to prove the antagonist is a liar in order to feel morally entitled to get their digs in. It’s a real weird impulse.

      1. Anonymel*

        I don’t think it’s that people are saying he doesn’t have OCD, moreso that some are saying the behavior described by the OP isn’t necessarily automatically related to it. Having OCD AND being a control freak-micromanaging-know it all are not mutually exclusive. They can co-exist.

      2. Claire*

        I think it’s possibly because if the LW is viewing the behavior as the manifestation of a medical condition rather than just bossiness or something, they may feel more hesitant to stand up for themselves.

        1. AngryOctopus*

          This. If LW thinks “oh wow this guy has a medical condition, and he can’t help it, so I need to tiptoe around him when he annoys me with all this stuff, I can’t just tell him to stop, he can’t help it!!” that’s not going to help anyone. If LW thinks “no matter where this comes from, he can’t keep this up, so I’m going to kindly and politely tell him I don’t need feedback on X and Y” then it’s better for everyone. Maybe this is part of coworkers OCD and the calling out helps him see he needs to control it more. Maybe it’s related to him secretly being a controlling jackass and calling him out makes him stop because LW isn’t receptive! It doesn’t matter! It’s on LW to politely push back and it’s on coworker to adjust their own whatever-it-is-he’s-got-going-on.

        2. Observer*

          LW is viewing the behavior as the manifestation of a medical condition rather than just bossiness or something, they may feel more hesitant to stand up for themselves.

          I agree. But I think that it is still not useful to the LW, especially if their CW has explicitly said that this is part of their diagnosis.

          It is FAR more useful to point out that they can still set reasonable boundaries without having to deal with the issue of whether this is / is not a disorder. This is a perfect place to deploy the “If you’re standing on my foot you need to get off” thought process.

          1. hohumdrum*

            Yes, thank you.

            Worrying about whether it’s “real” or not is a smokescreen. You can politely set firm boundaries whether the guy has a diagnosis or not. Interrogating the diagnosis because you don’t feel allowed to push back unless he’s lying is ableism at best and weird nastiness at worst.

    5. Close but not quite*

      OP could have misheard OCD for OCPD, an entirely different personality disorder but folks often confuse the two. When I was diagnosed, my psych walked me through the differences.

      1. Close but not quite*

        I.e. this is the definition from the Cleveland clinic:

        “Obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD) is a mental health condition that causes a person to become preoccupied with perfectionism, orderliness, and control. These behaviors and thought patterns can make it difficult to complete tasks, maintain relationships, and function in life

    1. HailRobonia*

      Yeah, when I saw OCD I thought it would be something like “you can’t leave loose papers out” or “I need the chairs to face this direction” etc.

    2. Lana Kane*

      Could be a little of this, a little of that. OCD can manifest in different ways, one of them being a need to make sure someone understands something and not stopping till the person feels the other one has understood. (I have a family member with OCD and this is one way it manifests). I think understanding that even some of this could be OCD is helpful in guiding the OP in setting some boundaries.

    3. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

      It’s a symptom of my Dad’s diagnosed OCD. And Alison’s advice happens to be what my therapist suggested I do with my Dad, and it works to a degree.
      I also intentionally do things “wrong,” that is, not the way Dad has told me to do it. This is something OCD patients are encouraged to do for themselves, to “do it wrong” and prove that it’s okay when you don’t indulge your compulsion. So in OP’s example, if my dad said, “you can take your lunch at 11,” I would take it at a different time. That works really well for me.

    4. Irish Teacher.*

      I actually scrolled back to check if this could be gendered, but it sounds like he does it to everybody regardless of gender or anything else. Not that that makes it any less problematic, but I guess at least it doesn’t appear to be sexist?

  6. Observer*

    Also, if he tries to go further and pushes back when you refuse to engage or do what he says (eg he tells you when to take lunch and you do it at a different time), take up the chain. In most organizations this would be an issue, but in the military with it’s strict hierarchy and chains of command, this would almost certainly be something that would be dealt with.

    I am quite certain that no one would consider allowing him to act well above his rank as a “reasonable accommodation”.

    1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      The point about reasonable accommodation is almost certainly moot. OCD is a disqualifying condition in the US military, along with many, many other conditions/disorders. Someone with a diagnosis would be discharged, not sent through an accommodation process. Unless this is not the US military, possibly.

      1. AF Vet*

        That honestly depends on your command. Yes, it IS disqualifying if you are diagnosed with it prior to entry and they discover it during your MEPS physical. And yes, the VA considers it a pre-existing (developmental or learning disability) condition so it doesn’t add to a VA rating. However, if you’re a productive member of a unit and you have your condition under control (via therapy, meds, or a combo of the two) and are still deployable, then it’s not an automatic med board.

  7. Dasher Hadwicl*

    As someone with OCD… This doesn’t sound like OCD. I don’t know if that’s how he framed it to you, but I’ve never seen someone present in that way. I might be upset about other people doing things, but not to this extent (and I wouldn’t make it their problem!) I’m obviously not qualified to say anything about his diagnosis, but it is certainly strange.

    2. ferrina*

      Could it be possible that his OCD manifests as him having the compulsion to explain things to people? That he must absolutely communicate instructions or something bad will happen?

      That’s the only possible thing I could imagine where the accommodations would be “he gets to instruct people in things they don’t need instructing in”. Not impossible, but certainly unlikely. (also- are these real accommodations? were the communicated by HR, or by Sergeant Duke, or someone else?)

      1. Graph*

        I find my OCD has manifested in that I can’t help myself from spilling whatever is in my brain — for me, that’s often just stream of consciousness stuff. “Confessional” OCD is a known theme — I’ve always taken that to mean maybe confession in the literal sense of stating responsibility for actions, etc., but also this compulsive urge to share every thought that crosses the mind.

        Doesn’t necessarily 100% mean that’s the case in this situation, but I do think it’s a possibility.

      2. Clisby*

        The letter doesn’t say there are any accommodations in place. I think LW just wants him to stop (or tone it down) but doesn’t want to be unkind.

    3. Peanut Hamper*

      I second this. This sounds not like OCD, but “I need to be in charge of everything syndrome”.

      I am wondering if that’s an actual diagnosis or just a self-diagnosis. Because this is not how OCD manifests.

      1. Jake*

        We have fellow commenters with family members that have OCD that has presented this way. Your understanding of how OCD presents appears to be limited.

    4. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

      FWIW it fits my father’s symptoms very well. OCD is a pretty broad diagnosis. Tons of patients can’t even identify their intrusive thoughts, and most people think that’s the bedrock of the diagnosis.

    5. Lana Kane*

      I posted above that I have a family member whose OCD doesn’t manifest in what’s considered the most “common” ways. They aren’t concerned with having things just so, for example, or washing their hands, etc. They ruminate a lot, and one way this shows up is in explaining and explaining things that have already been explained, but no matter how muich they explain they feel they’re not getting through. So we need to direct them to stop and work on trusting that if we say we understand, then that’s it. Duke may have a compulsion to over explain, to make sure people know it’s ok to do this or that, etc. I’m not any kind of dr, much less his dr, but I wanted to throw this out there because I had never heard of this kind of presentation for OCD until my family member was diagnosed.

    6. ActualTeacher*

      As someone with diagnosed OCD, you should be aware that it manifests in different ways in different people.

  8. ferrina*

    I’m confused. Is Sergent Duke’s accommodation that he gets to instruct everyone? Is that something that HR has agreed to? Or is he just instructing everyone?

    If HR is expecting you to provide part of the accommodation (i.e., be a constant listening ear), they should be providing you some guidance. Can you ask that Duke email his instructions? Can you say “thanks” and walk away before he’s done talking? What if you need to go somewhere? What if you oh-so-coincidentally happen to be in meetings all day and never see him? What language do you use to explain to people that don’t know Sergeant Duke so as not to undermine your own reputation? (i.e., if people are wondering why you don’t just tell him to stop) It’s HR’s job to figure out how an accommodation impacts the rest of the work/workforce and ensure that everyone has the tools they need to apply the accomodation.
    (I’m not sure how being in the military is different than civilian HR, so adjust accordingly)

    1. Jake*

      I wouldn’t assume military. In fact, this reads more as police officers than military. I could be wrong though.

      2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

        But in this particular case, the letter writer specifically calls out (2nd sentence) that they are in the military.

        (Absent that, you are correct that we shouldn’t automatically assume military when someone lists a rank.)

      3. Anonymel*

        We take the OP at their word and they said, “We’re in the military, are the same rank, and have a similar level of experience. We’re in the military, are the same rank, and have a similar level of experience.”

    2. philmar*

      Military doesn’t have HR like that. LW could go to the person immediately ahead of them in their chain of command and say they are having a problem with this other SSG… but that person would probably tell them to deal with it, because interpersonal problems are something you should be able to handle yourself.

    3. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      As noted by others elsewhere, this is a disqualifying condition in the US military, so if that’s who they work for, this wouldn’t be a matter for accommodation but for discharge if it was found out about.

  9. GwenSoul*

    My husband has OCD and I am in several support groups and this doesn’t sound like typical OCD. (I guess it could be since there is so much variety but this doesn’t sound usual)

    Usually there is some type of behavior or action on his part he is trying to control. does he do this with everyone or just you?

    Either way, assuming it is part of his OCD you can ask him if there is a trigger he is responding to that you can try to avoid.

    1. Guacamole Bob*

      Yeah, it doesn’t sound typical for OCD to me, either. But OCD and other types of anxiety can blur into each other, in my experience with family and friends, and this definitely sounds like it could be anxiety-driven behavior.

      If OP is seeing signs that this is linked to mental health and isn’t just a matter of asking the guy to stop because it’s hard for him to control (and he doesn’t mean it condescendingly), I don’t think the exact diagnosis matters much.

      1. What_the_What*

        If it is related to OCD and/or anxiety or other diagnosed conditions, it’s on the Sgt. to seek help in controlling the behaviors through behavioral modification therapy, or medication, or whatever. He still doesn’t get to impose it on his peers. If I worked w/ him, frankly, I’d just say, “OK” to everything and keep doing what I’m doing. Maybe just giving his input is enough, whether it’s taken to heart or not…. *shrug*

        1. Guacamole Bob*

          No, he doesn’t get to impose it on his peers. But it may change how OP feels about the situation and what balance of kindness and impatience factor into his responses.

      1. Anonymel*

        And that he has OCD in some area doesn’t automatically mean that this behavior is related to it.

    3. The Rafters*

      No and nope. This guy is beyond OCD and leaning heavily into controlling others. No one tells me the best way to get to my own house unless I’m lost, what classes to take or that I may leave at my usual time (the last one, my boss excepted obviously). In this case, I would not go too far out of my way to avoid Duke’s “triggers.” Sounds like far too many to manage and it’s not OPs responsibility.

  10. Observer*

    I have another thought. Please do not think about this in terms of OCD. Whether or not this is a symptom of his OCD or not, his behavior is out of line, and you need to deal with it the same way as if you were just a know it all with poor boundaries.

    And if you do have to kick it upstairs (eg he tries to take your supervisor’s role and pushes when you ignore him), don’t frame it as an OCD issue. It’s simply behavior that is disruptive and inappropriate. If someone does try to pull that, point out that what you are complaining about – specific inappropriate behavior towards you cannot be considered a reasonable accommodation – and take it further up the chain as far as you can.

    1. ferrina*

      I completely agree with this. Unless either Sergeant Duke or HR has said “this is an accommodation/OCD symptom”, do not assume that it is. Proceed as though it were not related to the OCD.

      If Sergeant Duke has said “This is my OCD and I need you to accommodate it,” you can go to HR and ask for further guidance. There is an official process for accommodations, and unless that process is followed, proceed as though the OCD is not related.

      If HR has told you that this is an accommodation, go back to them and ask for more guidance. I really doubt that HR’s official solution is “stand there indefinitely and listen to whatever he says”.

    2. Gudrid the Well Traveled*

      This is where I fall on the ‘is it ocd’ discussion. It doesn’t matter. Accommodations shouldn’t limit how another person conducts their personal life or arranges their work duties. Plus it’s not good for OCD. It’s feeding the trolls and reinforcing the cycle which means you’re participating in his mental health care instead of supporting accommodations. This is not what reasonable accommodations should look like, if these even are formal accommodations.

      If he says when you should take lunch or do anything else, can you accept it as a suggestion and choose your own alternative? “Thanks but a 12:30 lunch works better for me.” it’s a tiny, experimental interruptor to see how he reacts. Ideally he can stop dictating how you do things altogether, but you may have to get there gradually.

  11. ZSD*

    I have OCD, and none of this sounds like symptoms I’m familiar with (from what I’ve read about others’ experiences as well as my own). However, OCD can manifest in a lot of different ways, and I *do* believe that he could have a compulsion to say these things out loud. But does he have to say them TO someone? For example, part of my OCD is that I have to say certain things out loud, but I can say them to myself, either under my breath or when I’m in a room alone.
    Has he specifically tied this to OCD, or are you just making that connection? If you try shutting him down as Alison and others have suggested but he says that he has to say these things because of his OCD, could you suggest that he try whispering them to himself, or saying them into a paper bag, or walking to the bathroom to say them? That way he can still meet the needs of the compulsion without annoying you.
    At least, those would all be reasonable workarounds for my own compulsions.

    1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

      I wondered about some sort of diversionary tactic- emailing the person but with a keyword in the subject like, “Pickles,” where the person can decide if Duke’s advice/instruction is wanted or they can easily avoid it if they want. I don’t have OCD, so I don’t know if that would satisfy the compulsion, but might be an option if he needs to get the message across but is delivered in an easy to ignore way.

  12. PropJoe*

    Being in the military is one situation where you can probably get away with telling him to shut the f___ up and not get in trouble.

    If he balks at it, tell him if it doesn’t relate to the work you do in your shop, he can stick it where the sun don’t shine.

    1. Lab Boss*

      This is interesting, and it’s like the inverse of any time a question comes from Academia and the answer has to be tempered with “well in most jobs this wouldn’t be OK but in Academia you just have to accept that’s how it is.”

    2. Baldrick*

      The line that immediately came to mind is to warmly say “Stay in your lane”. Maybe even smile or laugh as you say it. The line is said occasionally where I work, and would be received well. If the guy is telling you how to do your job, then I’d try “That’s above your pay grade”.

      Being of equal rank it isn’t kind for OP to be mean about it, and sticking it where the sun don’t shine is worse than I’d ever say. If he keeps offering advice after a few attempts to shut it down then I’d say “I don’t need your advice on my problems, suck it up buttercup”. Sounds like the guy has good intentions, just really bad execution, so setting up good boundaries will hopefully be helpful for everyone!

      One other thing to consider is whether the guy is sometimes providing good advice. If so then OP could explain to him about wording choices. “Go home this way” is completely different from “When I go to Town, I go this route”. Same information, but very different response from those who hear it.

      I once went on a military course about conflict resolution, and on the first day they went over the basics of how to explain problems using more ‘I’ language. Instead of “You’re doing it wrong” try “I don’t like it when you do it this way”. It was very basic for me, but the guy sitting next to me looked stunned and eventually quietly said “I’d still be married and have done better at work if this course had been around 20 years ago”.

    3. KitKat*

      This doesn’t seem like helpful advice for OP? They are clearly concerned about the coworker’s comfort and well-being, and looking for ways to approach with kindness.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        It can actually be kinder to just cut to the chase with people! Especially if it’s appropriate for the culture. We all want to know where the line is.

    5. Bella Ridley*

      The touchy-feely friendly-warm type scripts aren’t necessarily going to work in the military, but you can try them if you like. Otherwise yeah, ask politely once, and otherwise tell him to GTFO out of your business. Don’t do it in front of your troops, but yeah.

      Where is the chain of command in all of this? If the supervisor is reluctant to say anything because medical is involved, then it needs to jump the chain because this is unsat behavior from a senior member.

    6. Jennifer in FL*

      I was thinking more along the lines of a light-hearted “Since when did you get put in my Chain of Command?”, but yeah.

      1. Sergeant Weary*

        Honestly, this could work. We report to the same supervisor, so for one of us to put ourselves over the other is a little, well, gauche.

    7. KKR*

      Honestly I was thinking of scripts and a “Dude, stfu” said in a laughing tone could be honestly a good way to approach it – as long as it’s said in a laughing tone with like an explanation after “You know you don’t have to talk to me like a junior soldier/sailor/boot/etc” I think it could be effective

      1. Rick Tq*

        And get the person saying can get an Article 15 session with the CO for disrespect if Duke takes it the wrong way and makes a formal complaint….

        Civilians really do NOT understand the rules about acceptable behavior in the military…

      2. PropJoe*

        Yeah I probably should’ve been a bit more clear.

        Say it with a smile and a warm tone of voice, and phrase it like “c’mon man, stfu, you know I’m not a boot/non-rate/etc. I’ve been around the block just as much as you have.”

        And absolutely do not have this conversation in the presence of your junior enlisted. Present a united front at all times, but don’t let the situation fester. If Sgt Duke persists in his stubborn micromanaging, talk to the next person up in your chain of command. “I’m not trying to make Sgt Duke catch a page 11/article 15 or anything formal, but he’s trying to micromanage me, a fellow Sgt. I’ve told him to knock it off repeatedly and it’s still happening. Would you mind stepping in next time he starts acting the fool again?”

        1. KKR*

          Yass, exactly. I think you got what I was trying to say, I don’t know what the other commenter was thinking I was suggesting haha. Maybe my spouses units are just more rough and tumble than others and my “norms” are off.

  13. NoNameUser*

    The OP does say that it’s diagnosed Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. It feels weird for the comments to be arguing with a diagnosis.

    1. Lab Boss*

      Especially because OP isn’t asking “am I legally required to tolerate this because of his diagnosis.” The OCD is a red herring, the key points are that OP generally likes Duke and just wants a way to handle this behavior without souring their relationship.

      1. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

        Yeah it’s getting obnoxious, especially for those of us who know this fits the diagnosis. Which isn’t even the point.

        1. Lana Kane*

          Thank you. I’m starting to get upset. I’ve already typed out my experience with this kind of OCD twice and don’t want to spam the comments section.

          1. Raisin Walking to the Moon*

            @Lana Kane Alison’s got our back. :)
            Is there a word for when everyone comments the same thing, all thinking they’re saying something unique? I’m certainly guilty of it, too, at times.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      There is the common perception of what OCD is, and then there is what actual OCD is, in a clinical sense. The overlap between these two things is pretty much non-existent.

      Too many people use OCD as an excuse for needing everything to be neat or needing to be in control of everything. This is not OCD.

      OCD is much more internalized: a lot of thoughts you’d rather not have, irrational thoughts about getting things done the correct way, and a lot of anxiety as a result.

      Too many people self-diagnose themselves as having OCD just to be bossy.

    3. run mad; don't faint*

      He could have OCD and have this behavior outside of that. But you’re right, we’re asked not to second guess letter writers here. For what it’s worth, much of this does sound like an anxiety driven action, born of a worry that you have to make sure that people aren’t messing things up. Or his worry that he’ll be blamed if he doesn’t manage everything for everyone and people mess up. Something along those lines anyway. Strictly OCD? I can’t say, but it definitely could be an impulse issue or a compulsion. Whatever the root cause, gently pushing back as Alison suggested should help.

      1. Gamer Girl*

        Yup, I have a close family member with this kind of anxiety-driven OCD. It can get maddening when these symptoms are targeted at you, and I completely understand why the OP wrote in! One framing that has helped me a lot is that this is the only way that the person with OCD knows how to be–it’s not personal, and they were likely raised like this. All the more reason for warm but firm boundaries, exactly as Alison stated.

        (My experience and an example step by step script for consistently disengaging with the behavior below if it is helpful to OP!)

        For me, once I realized that this relative’s mother was exactly the same (extremely anxious, severe “director” type OCD for similarly bizarre cases, as in the OP’s letter) and had had their entire life “managed” in the same way, it helped me have more compassion for the behavior. It’s a pattern that needs different, direct responses from the receiver than what most people would give so that the person w/OCD realizes that there’s a problem and changes their behavior.

        My scripts for disengaging:

        Step 1: “I have a plan already, thanks!”

        Step 2: “I already have a plan, so I will stop talking about this now”

        Step 3: “Let’s talk about XYZ now.”

        Step 4: “I have a plan for X. If you can’t stop mentioning [rumination/plan], then I will leave this conversation.”

        Step 5: Leave conversation/room/chat.

        If they make contact/rejoin Convo/etc, engage genuinely to see if they have actually switched topics. You want to show that you still genuinely want to speak with them.

        Step 6: If they continue with the compulsion to ruminate on the same topic after you’ve re-engaged in good faith, then state that you are hanging up/leaving because you won’t discuss again at this time. And then actually go!

        That’s my take on the de-escalation tactics that the Dr shared with us, so I thought it might help the OP to share here. Consistent reinforcement is the key. Be aware that there might be an initial ramp up in anxiety symptoms initially, but stick with it. This is the healthy and right thing to do, for them AND for you OP!

        For health issues specifically: My relative has so much health anxiety, and I have put them on a complete information diet about my health. They are completely unable to avoid ruminating for hours or days if I engage at all on health topics. For both our sales, I repeat the phrase “I’m following my dr’s advice” consistently as my only phrase to prevent their OCD ruminations from engaging with my health worries in their presence, and I mute their messages when they start in on this over messaging and do not reply at all to those messages.

        Since this is a work environment, though, if they start in on your health and won’t stop (or any other topic that begins to negatively affect your mental health!), just send this up the chain of command. You’re not required to be anxious at work as an accommodation to your colleague–that’s way over the line for a workplace!

    4. Artemesia*

      He can be OCD and also a mansplaining jerk. I have no idea if this is typical of OCD but people here who have it are saying no it isn’t. I would be putting my hand up in the stop position every time he did this and saying ‘we talked about this.’ and then just ‘stop’ and walk away.

      Start with the discussion ‘I don’t need you to be bossing me about all day’. and then move to the more aggressive stance.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Plus, even if it is OCD, mental illness is not an excuse to be a jerk to the people around you. That’s not rule #1, but it’s somewhere in the top five.

      3. Dahlia*

        People here who have it are also saying “it could be”.

        If it doesn’t matter, then people should stop trying to disprove this guy’s diagnosis.

    5. RM*

      It’s really common for people to conflate OCD and OCPD. The difference doesn’t really change the advice but the behaviors as described line up way more closely with OCPD and only very slightly with OCD. I only know about this due to a family member being diagnosed.

    2. duinath*

      Yep. My immediate thought to all the examples: mind your business, Duke.

      …But I think that’s not the polite, professional response LW had in mind. Alison’s scripts are better, go with those.

      1. Bella Ridley*

        In these circumstances I don’t actually think they are. If there was ever a time and a place for blunt and clear “stop this,” this is it.

  15. Anonymous with OCD*

    Hey everyone saying that this does not sound like typical OCD—cut it out!

    OCD manifests in different ways for different people, and the stereotypes and assumptions just increase stigma and misunderstanding. Needing to control how things are done or ruminating on what others should do is a common manifestation of OCD. It is awesome that the writer and Alison are trying to be empathetic by understanding that there may be a connection. Let’s build on that empathy.

    1. tabloidtained*

      Agreed. I cannot stand the recent trend of, “I have XYZ diagnosis and *I* would never do — so this person can’t possibly be doing this as a result of XYZ.”

  16. Not Tom, Just Petty*

    This whole, “he’s a nice guy, but…” He’s a great employee but he makes everyone around him find ways to avoid working with him. He makes everyone around him stop their tasks and focus on him.
    He’s a lousy coworker. It’s ok. You can say it. You don’t have to be ashamed of feeling that the coworker who puts his want (or medical need) to control everything around him is a pain in the ass. You don’t have to tell him he’s a pain in the ass. You can can politely and professionally regain control of your work life. You also don’t have to feel bad about your feelings toward this guy.

    1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      This. You can be understanding of the cause while still taking back control of your work life.

      I also second is this a formal accomodation or do you think this is what you have to do to deal with him? Because quite frankly, I would have told him to knock it off a long time ago.

    2. Apex Mountain*

      Did you read the letter? The OP clearly likes this coworker, I’m not sure why you’re saying they really don’t or trying to talk them out of it.

      1. Lab Boss*

        Because WAY too many commenters here seem to struggle with the shade of gray that a coworker can have a flaw- even a serious one- and still be overall likeable, or efficient, or skilled, or whatever. “This specific behavior is a pain in the ass” has to mean that the entire person is a pain in the ass and claiming you like him most of the time is just denial, or something.

      2. RagingADHD*

        I think that’s based on the part where LW explicitly says they have almost entirely stopped talking to Duke because of this behavior.

        You can like someone as a person and still think they are a pain in the ass to work with, or think they would be a good coworker if they didn’t do the things that are making them a pain in the ass.

        The two feelings / opinions are not mutually exclusive. And acknowledging that duality can be a big help in addressing the issue in a straightforward, matter of fact way.

  17. 123*

    Honestly I would just shut this down completely. Obviously in a nice way, but if it continued I would consider escalating it especially if he’s telling you what to do despite not being your boss/supervisor and definitely if it escalates to medical advice. While I’m sympathetic to all mental illness, it’s not a free pass for poor behaviour especially in the work place. I am speaking as someone with mental illness, while it may explain some behaviours it doesn’t give anyone an excuse or free pass to act however if it’s not appropriate for the workplace.

  18. Person With OCD*

    Sharing in the vain hope this will nip the “this can’t be OCD” comments in the bud…

    There is a particular subtype of OCD called moral scrupulosity where the person feels immense personal responsibility for others. Without knowing the person, for the person described in the letter, they may feel like if they DON’T give advice, they are neglecting a moral responsibility to help and if the person suffers in any way, they are at fault.

    OCD is not just “straightening papers” as someone above said. I’m hoping those without knowledge of the disorder refrain from opining as the stereotypes about OCD being only about cleanliness, neatness, or germs are extremely harmful and stigmatizing.

    1. Lana Kane*

      Thank you. I have a relative who has this (although I hadn’t heard the term “moral scrupulosity” before, so thanks for that!) But this absolutely fits, and I can see Duke to a certain degree in my loved one’s experience.

      1. Person With OCD*

        It’s very easy to miss, even for clinicians, largely because a lot of what is happening here…the compulsions can look like nosiness, interfering, being overly rigid, etc. to a lay person. Took me 30 years to get diagnosed despite having 2 members of my family with OCD and OCD having a huge genetic factor, plus lots of time in therapy where it just got called anxiety.

        None of this is to diagnose Duke, but the immediate flood to “this isn’t OCD because he isn’t straightening papers or washing his hands a lot” is infuriating. For a commentariat that often claims to care a lot about mental health, there sure is a rush to opine on a subject a lot of people seem to know little about (even by others with OCD/family members with OCD, since different themes and obsessions can present in a variety of ways, and personal experience with one doesn’t make a person an expert on another).

        Glad the term is helpful in understanding your family member.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        Thank you both for sharing the information you have in this thread. I had actually heard of scrupulosity, but mostly in the context of religion and OCD leading to things like fear of committing sin. I didn’t know it could manifest in this way.

    3. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      I will add that the commenting rules ask that we not armchair diagnose others, and saying someone doesn’t have OCD is also armchair diagnosing.

      “Don’t armchair-diagnose others (“it sounds like your coworker is autistic/has borderline personality disorder/etc.”). We can’t diagnose based on anecdotes on the internet, these statements often stigmatize people with those diagnoses, and it’s generally not useful to focus on disorders rather than practical advice for dealing with the person in question.”

      1. Person With OCD*

        10000%. The letter is what it is, but this comment section is largely doing nothing but perpetuate harmful stereotypes that are one of the major reasons OCD is so underdiagnosed.

    5. Princess Peach*

      Yes, I have a close relative with diagnosed OCD, and this is exactly what they do. I can’t make them stop – it’s not my place and not within my abilities. I can’t sufficiently prove to them that I understand or will do what they say. I can’t argue my way into “winning” and getting them to see it my way. That’s just not how their brain works.

      The best options for me are to briefly acknowledge that they’re communicating with me, and then to do my own thing without explanation or discussion. That way, they don’t feel slighted or ignored, and I’m not drawn into a pointless fight.

      When I really need them *not* to focus on a particular topic, I do my best to avoid bringing it up or allowing them to find out. Otherwise, I have to get pretty explicit. “No, this is not up for discussion. This is never up for discussion. Stop immediately or [consequence].”

      With my relative, the consequence is usually that I’ll leave / hang up / not come for the next holiday. At work, it could involve pulling in some workplace authority or kicking him off a project. (I guess? OCD, I know about. The military, not so much). Then, I have to actually follow up with the consequence for my own sake. I can’t control my relative and their compulsions, only my own reactions.

      1. Boof*

        Sounds like whether it’s OCD or not, just saying “I got this thanks!” ad nauseam and minimizing unsolicited advice-interactions is the way to go. I am presuming Duke then lets it go rather than doubling down or getting worked up; if Duke doesn’t let it go then OP would need to take it up a level because that isn’t ok. But if Duke takes redirection then OP probably just needs to make peace with redirecting more than one wishes one would have to. It’s also perfectly ok for OP to decline to discuss their health / personal details / anything they really don’t want advice on with Duke.

      1. Person With OCD*

        <3 Yeah, same. And it's super invalidating to see all the "this can't be OCD" comments when it's such a struggle to get diagnosed with this type so…take care.

  19. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    “Duke, you’ve got a lot of knowledge about a lot of stuff, and there are always going to be times when I’m going to turn to you – among others – for advice. But please don’t take it on yourself to offer advice when I haven’t asked for it. It’s presumptious, it’s affecting our productive working relationship, and I worry that it’s setting a bad example for others in the office.”

    1. Shrimp Emplaced*

      Ooh, this is good suggestion. I’d leave off the last sentence if it were up to me — it’s a strong statement without it.

    2. Sergeant Weary*

      Thanks for this! I think this is a really graceful way of telling him to back off without causing a rift. I will give it a shot next time it comes up.

  20. OCDHaver*

    As a person with diagnosed OCD, this sounds a lot more like colloquial “OCD” (which is code for ‘I’m nitpicky, controlling, and detail-oriented’).

    It definitely could be a manifestation of OCD, but it sounds like a problem with them not seeking appropriate treatment/management techniques. My first rule I established for myself once I was diagnosed and getting treatment was that my OCD doesn’t get to control other people’s lives. I sometimes don’t live up to it, but I think it’s a good standard.

    For some background: OCD is generally driven by a need to control to avoid an imagined worst-case scenario. There may or may not be a logical series of steps connecting the thing you are trying to control and the imagined end result. It tends to get more tenuous the worse the OCD gets. It’s often coming from a place of anxiety. Each time a compulsion is completed, it doesn’t really help with the anxiety in the long-term. It just reinforces a faulty coping mechanism. There are treatment programs which help you break the cycles, but those should only be done with a consenting patient and a trained mental health professional. None of this “surprise exposure therapy” nonsense. That just creates more anxiety and trauma, but I digress.

    If it were me, I think saying something along the lines of, “I appreciate your concern, but I don’t need your input” is reasonable. The behavior will likely escalate if not managed, so you may have to escalate to your supervising officer if it gets worse.

    1. KGD*

      I love the way you phrased your rule – “my OCD doesn’t get to control other people’s lives.”

      I have ADHD and struggle a lot with shame because of the many, many ridiculous situations and messes I find myself in. My mantra about it is “it’s not my fault, but it is my job.” So like, I don’t need to doubt my essential value as a human being because I lost my bank card for the 47th time, but I do have to get myself to the bank and replace it before it inconveniences my family. It’s a really helpful way to approach it, for me and the people around me.

      1. OCDHaver*

        Thanks! I had a lot of problems when my OCD first started flaring up with trying to tell my roommate not to do things the “wrong” way or asking her for reassurance. That was my way of setting a limit so I didn’t drive her crazy. She ended up moving out (which was best for both of us), but we are still best friends.

        I like “it’s not my fault, but it is my job.” I’ll have to use that.

  21. xl*

    Others have said that this doesn’t sound like OCD. I’m not knowledgeable on that and what is and isn’t associated with OCD.

    However, I was in the military for quite awhile. OCD, depression, et al were disqualifying conditions when I was in. I’m not sure if that has changed, but OP stating matter-of-factly that their coworker had “diagnosed” OCD stood out to me because when I was in, such a diagnosis was a career-ender.

    1. MsM*

      Yeah, I’m really curious how Duke trying to tell a superior officer what to do works. Have they just all been briefed on his issues so they can brush him off, or do they only give him tasks where he can’t interfere with a serious order?

      1. xl*

        That’s not now it would be in the military.

        If he were diagnosed with OCD that had that kind of effect on his ability to follow orders, he would be discharged. An OCD diagnosis in general was disqualifying when I was in the military. That’s why I think there’s more to this situation than what we’re seeing.

        1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

          It was still disqualifying as of a couple years ago, and I haven’t seen any indication of it having been changed (nor would I expect it to), so yes, something else is going on here or something got lost in translation.

      2. MassMatt*

        I was curious about this as well. If this is truly a disorder and Sarge has no ability to control it, wouldn’t he be doing it to superior officers as well? That very much would not fly.

        To connect it to advice to the LW, maybe a solution is to say that just as he cannot tell a Lieutenant how to drive, he should not tell LW how to do it either. I feel badly for this person’s subordinates, it sounds as though serving under him would be insufferable.

      3. Aerin*

        This was my immediate thought. If he’s not doing it with superior officers, then he clearly does have some modicum of control about it. OP can make it clear that they should be added to the list of people around whom Duke needs to exercise that control.

        If Duke actually does do something similar around superiors (I’m thinking it would probably be more the advice about driving to work bit and less about the when it’s okay to take lunch bit) then there’s probably less OP can ask of him (although it would still be fair to try). In that case, my tactic would probably be a bored “Okay” to literally everything.

    2. Garblesnark*

      I think an important consideration here is that many people find out about (or develop) these conditions at varying times in their lives. Brain cancer is disqualifying for service, but the military does not do an MRI of the brain prior to enlistment to ensure applicants don’t have any tumors. Instead, they go by reported history.

      1. xl*

        Yes, but if it becomes known while you are in the military, it is still a disqualifying condition and you can/will summarily be discharged for it. I saw more than one fellow servicemember be discharged when they developed depression during their enlistment.

    3. Myrin*

      I mean, Alison gets letters from all over the world – this could simply be from someone in the military in another country from you where there aren’t such disqualifiers in place.

  22. Garblesnark*

    Hi, I’m just reminding folks on this weird day that you can report comments by putting a link in a reply and a note saying the issue with the comment. :)

    2. Happily Retired*

      Glad you posted this, because I’ve been stumped how to do this.

      The reply posts and is visible, right? If so, I guess that would reduce the flood of reports.

      1. jane's nemesis*

        no – it’s not visible because comments with links go to moderation. They have to be released by someone behind the scenes.

      2. Myrin*

        No, the reply gets stuck in moderation because it has a link in it (and if you are registered with Gravatar, it will show you a “Your comment is awaiting moderation” at the top and YOU are still able to see it).
        That’s how the “reporting” feature works in this regard – Alison gets alerted to a comment with a link in it (the same thing happens with regular links which aren’t used for the purpose of reporting) and then has to look at it personally to decide what to do, and that’s how she can see e. g. questionable or bigoted or derailing comments which are pointed out that way.

      3. Happily Retired*

        – thanks to both jane’s nemesis and Myrin about links going to moderation first! *face-palm*

  23. GirlWithOCD*

    I’m not clear on whether Sergeant Duke has explained to OP that this is a symptom of his OCD or if they are assuming it is based on the fact that they know Duke has OCD. As other commenters have pointed out, this certainly could be a symptom of his OCD. However, I would caution against assuming that because Duke has OCD, this is a symptom. I have OCD and am pretty open about it. If I were behaving like Duke, I would hate to find out that people just assumed it was a symptom of my OCD and I couldn’t control it.

  24. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

    It’s disappointing how hostile commenters are to Sergeant Duke. Too many people do not know how to set boundaries without demonizing other people. It’s possible to be sympathetic to someone’s condition and set boundaries or to set boundaries without burning it all down. In fact, I’d argue that burning it all down is NOT setting boundaries, it’ just venting one’s spleen. “STFU” is not setting boundaries; “I can decide when to eat lunch” is. Why people think it’s helpful to go out looking for things to be angry and hostile about escapes me.

    1. RagingADHD*

      It’s a very, very common problem for people who find it difficult or scary to set ordinary boundaries to feel like they have to overcompensate. When the threshold for boundary setting is very high, they need the extra adrenaline of anger to push them over the top. This mindset is often associated with being raised to believe that saying “no” to anything is rude, or that asserting your wishes in any degree will blow up your relationships. They aren’t willing to say anything at all until they’re ready to go nuclear.

      The more a person is used to saying “please don’t do that” or “no thank you” or “I’d rather not” in everyday life without blowing up their relationships, the easier it is for them to tell a coworker “hey, please stop doing that” – regardless of whether the person has a medical condition or not.

      1. GrumpyZena*

        This is *such* an insightful comment.

        I am a person who is *terrible* at advocating for my own needs, I’m in therapy and trying to get better at it.

        Something I learned about myself is that I don’t think I can just ask for what I need, just because I need it (whether that’s for someone to stop doing something, or to help me in some way). So I would tie my brain into a pretzel trying to make myself angry enough to ask, if that makes sense ( I needed “the extra adrenaline of anger”, as you so wisely put it).

        So instead of saying to my partner, “hey, can you do the kids’ bedtime tonight, I’m stressed out and I could really use the relaxation time”, I would start mentally listing off all the reasons why it was totally unfair of her to expect me to do bedtime, and how dare she, and after all I do for her, and she should “just see how tired and stressed I am”, and then, when I was finally worked up enough, I would be able to ask. I didn’t even realise I was doing it. It was so unfair, casting her as “the bad guy” so that I could feel like my request was legitimate, when the reality was that I didn’t feel like my needs were important or that I deserved consideration.

        This stuff is sneaky!

        1. emby*

          well, you just help me make a connection that several years of therapy hasn’t. i do this, but hadn’t put it together like you just did. this will be so helpful. thanks.

        2. Gamer Girl*

          I just screenshot this thread for reference.

          I have an incredibly hard time asking for things that I need, and I’ve been playing out this pattern, though I didn’t realize that this was why. I thought I was “just” mad because I was overwhelmed.

          I’m going to sit with this for awhile.

          Thank you for your insight!

      2. BubbleTea*

        Welp, this might be the best explanation I’ve seen for why my marriage ended. Thank you.

    2. Lana Kane*

      Very much agree. I see this so much, where suggestions on setting boundaries come across as hostile. One can set a boundary and also respect the other person’s humanity.

    3. Lab Boss*

      I think many people struggle with line-drawing. If you’re not totally obligated to put up with a behavior, then the right thing to do must be to shut it down with an iron fist, politeness be damned! No, you shouldn’t just tolerate that rude thing your friend does, you should go no contact! I kind of suspect nobody is actually doing these things (the aggressive reactions), and it’s just a symptom of everyone talking a bigger game online than they do face to face.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I think it’s also a (less severe) manifestion of the logic I see online sometimes about how “all rules are pointless anyway; good people don’t need a rule to do the right thing and bad people will just find a way around the rule,” this idea that people fit nicely into “good” and “bad” categories and you don’t need any boundaries with “good” people since they will naturally do the right thing in all situations and well…”bad” people don’t deserve any consideration and you probably have to shut stuff down with an iron fist because if you leave them any loophole at all, they’ll take advantage of it.

        I mean, it’s probably not consciously expressed like that in most cases, but there does seem to be a subset of people who seem to see the world as being divided between good people who always make the right decisions, are completely responsible and are never irritable or incompetent at anything or even thoughtless and bad people who are completely toxic and deserve no consideration.

        1. Lab Boss*

          I think that’s very insightful. My spouse has that tendency, we’ve had to talk a few times about how just because I come home from work grumpy about what Fergus did that day, it does not mean Fergus is an incompetent POS who we should hate forever, or even a bad guy. He’s just not my favorite coworker.

        2. Lana Kane*

          This is so insightful! It puts into words things I’ve noticed but haven’t yet tied together/verbalized.

          I can see so many ways that this thought pattern can cause so much harm.

    4. Statler von Waldorf*

      I suspect that many people have had their boundaries bulldozed by someone in the past, and they are projecting that experience onto this letter. Having your boundaries violated is not pleasant, or the LW never would have written this letter. Setting and enforcing boundaries is significantly more emotional work than just telling people to STFU. As always, empathy is hard and work, while demonizing strangers with snarky zingers is both easy and fun.

      I disagree hard that burning it all down is not setting boundaries though. Don’t interact with me is about as extreme as boundaries get. Almost certainly too extreme for this letter, but it’s definitely a boundary.

      1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        That’s a fair point. I would not have said that if this was someone who had repeatedly violated someone’s boundaries, eg. I’ll rephrase to: “burn it all down” in response to one annoying behavior that is not malicious from a person the LW otherwise likes for which the LW has never set a boundary about previously is not healthy boundary-setting.

    5. KitKat*

      +1. Derailing discussions on whether this is ‘real’ OCD (spoiler alert – not for you to decide!) and suggestions that OP is wrong (or lying?) and actually deep down hates this guy… why? Who is this helping?

  25. blah*

    It’s amazing how one of the commenting rules is to take LWs at their word, and yet so many people here are doubting whether or not Duke has OCD!

    1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      I read the comments as less about ‘does he really have OCD’ and more stemming from a root like ‘is he allowed to be / do I have to put with him being like this even if he had OCD?”

      And the answer is NO. Captain Awkward has great stuff about this too. No one gets a pass to be an ass as an accommodation for any condition.

    2. Over It*

      I think people are conflating three different things here.

      1. Does the Sgt have diagnosed OCD? The LW said the Sgt shared he’s been diagnosed, so we should take them at their word.

      2. Is attempting to micromanage others’ lives a manifestation of his OCD symptoms, or is it just a crappy personality trait that Sgt blames on his OCD when he really could have control over it? This we really have know way of knowing, and people shouldn’t be speculating so much. It doesn’t change the advice towards LW either way.

      3. Is the Sgt’s behavior towards his coworkers reasonable, and should LW just need to deal with it? No! LW can and should set and enforce some boundaries.

      All three of these things can simultaneously be true.

    3. RM*

      His behavior sounds waaaay more like OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder) which, strangely enough, is an entirely different thing than OCD. It’s actually a really common thing for people to conflate the two and to refer to the two interchangeably. It doesn’t really change the advice but his symptoms do not at all sound like the main variants of OCD. They sound like something else entirely which could easily align with ODPD which OP might easily think is the same thing. I had no idea there was a real difference until a family member was diagnosed.

  26. Workaholic*

    Is OP female? I felt all of these examples were more “I’m a man, and thus know better than you” and not OCD.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      The LW does say he does it to everybody and given that this is the military, I would assume that means he is doing it to men too.

    2. e271828*

      Yeah, I wonder that too.

      But no matter what, “Sergeant Duke” is a jerk and needs to attend to his own tasks, not everyone else’s.

  27. RagingADHD*

    I do wonder whether your coworker tells your superior officers when they’re allowed to take lunch or go home. Because if he doesn’t, then he isn’t just compulsively pouring it on you due to proximity. It’s a choice. He can direct it and curtail it when he has a reason to.

    In the same way that depression is not a universal license to dump negativity on everyone around you, and anxiety is not a license to exhibit controlling / intrusive behavior (like the LW who stole their coworker’s pay stub and stalked them), and ADHD is not a license to fail to show up for work, your coworker’s OCD is not a license for him to pretend he outranks you at work or is in charge of your personal life.

    Right now, you are accepting inappropriate behavior that you would not accept from someone without his medical condition, which is more like pity than an actual work accommodation. If he is aware of his behavior, trying to control it, and failing, that is one thing. But it doesn’t sound from this description that he’s even attempting to reduce these behaviors (or that he has any reason to).

    It’s perfectly fine to tell him (nicely) to knock it off because it’s overstepping. If he tries to knock it off and can’t, then that’s something for him to work on on treatment.

    1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      Your first paragraph is not true. The ability to control a behavior in one instance does not equate to the ability to control it in all instances. E.g., I can skip a meal but I can’t skip all my meals.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yes, but it means you can choose when, where and what you eat. Presumably you aren’t eating trash off the sidewalk, or loudly slurping spaghetti on camera during a work Zoom.

        If Duke understands this behavior is inappropriate and is aware enough of his actions to curtail it when it would get him disciplined, then he can work on curtailing it for the sake of his work relationships. And it is appropriate to ask him to do so.

        As I said, if he struggles to behave appropriately when asked, then that’s something for him work on in therapy, not something for his coworkers to just put up with.

        People with mental health diagnoses are capable of behaving appropriately with their coworkers. It is not “kind” or “nice” or “empathetic” to presume they can’t. It’s patronizing.

  28. Rick Tq*

    This being a military environment adds another layer of problems. Normally Sargent Duke *can* order junior soldiers around, and controlling minutia like routes to work or how to make a phone call could be part of training someone. He can also order peers if his current assignment puts him in a senior role compared to others of the same rank. Doing it on a constant basis to junior soldiers is very close to Hazing, which is a violation of standing orders and shouldn’t be tolerated by the senior enlisted staff.

    OP’s report he is doing it to a peer for things totally outside military duties takes the problem to a whole other level, enough Duke’s actions could trigger Article 134 clause for “Disorderly conduct or behavior that disrupts unit cohesion.” That can mean an Article 15 hearing in front of his CO or possibly a full Courts Martial.

    Duke’s Command needs to intervene soon, he needs help and to be placed in a job where his illness can be managed better during the rest of his time in the service.

    I spent 6 years in the Navy so I dealt with these kinds of issues. Military rules are VERY different, no civilian boss can fine an employee half their pay for two months, demote them with the attendant pay cut, or restricted to base for 60 days.

    1. KitKat*

      So curious since you have experience with this. Would there be any disadvantage to OP trying the advice Alison lays out (kindly telling him to stop)? Is there another way to ask for management support without escalating in the way you describe here? The idea of a court martial over this behavior seems quite extreme to me but I have absolutely zero military knowledge.

      1. Rick Tq*

        OP can ask Duke to stop, but if Duke continues the next step is for OP to talk to the senior enlisted cadre (E7, E8) in the unit for them to informally counsel Duke to control his impulse to correct others. Next would be an informal discussion with the more senior officers in the unit. Both would normally happen before paper-work generating events like an Article 15 hearing or Courts Martial would occur. Yes, a Courts Martial would be an extreme response that would only happen if Duke’s behavior was totally out of control and he was trying to direct Colonels like they were boarder collies.

        Duke is an E5 so he hasn’t been in for a long time, it may end with his enlistment contract terminated early for the Good of the Service or Command may send him to a Medical Evaluation Board which might authorize a medical disability discharge.

    2. Mrs Kung Pao*

      Glad to hear someone with military experience chiming in here – the environment is so amazingly different, as are work norms. I am a military spouse from a different branch, and my husband has worked in a military role for a long time, and the stories can be so madden and it can feel helpless to give advice because of what does and does not fly.

    3. New Jack Karyn*

      Someone above said that OCD is a condition that can lead to separation. Would that be a medical discharge? Do you know if that’s true for all branches of service?

      None of this helps OP, I’m just idly curious.

      1. Rick Tq*

        I would expect it be a medical disqualifier for any branch of service. The wrong compulsive behavior (like hand washing) can get someone killed if they try and do it at the wrong time. As far as medical vs. administrative discharge?? Best answer I can give is ‘it depends’.

  29. Apex Mountain*

    Not familiar with the specifics of OCD, but given that this is the military, is he able to control it around higher ranking officers? I can’t imagine giving orders to your superiors would go over well..

  30. Crencestre*

    It was impossible to tell from the letter we read online, BUT…

    OP, are you female? A member of an ethnic/religious/(other) minority that has historically been the target of prejudice? Finally, do you observe Sargeant Duke acting like this towards other soldiers of his same rank or do you always seem to be the recipient of his “helpful” advice?

    I’m not disputing his OCD diagnosis; as Alison has pointed out, we’re not in a position to evaluate that, so I’ll take your word for it that this is what’s causing his behavior. That being said, the comments you quoted sound an awful lot like those that a supervisor/superior officer would say to a subordinate – but they don’t sound appropriate when speaking to a peer over whom he has NO authority. Hence my question about your gender and possible minority status; it’s extremely common for straight, White, Christian men in our culture to assume an air of superiority and authority over anyone who does not fit those four categories. Is it possible that Sargeant Duke’s behavior is motivated as much by that as by his OCD? Only you can answer that, but it’s worth considering.

  31. HugeTractsofLand*

    So sorry to hear you’re dealing with bad health news, OP. I would lean heavily on “that’s between me and my doctor”/”I’m following doctor’s orders right now, thanks” and “I don’t want to talk about my health at work, thanks.” I wonder if a breezy “I don’t need help with that, thanks” (with or without the thanks) will go a long way with everything else. Maybe you can level up by pointing out the pattern like: “I don’t need advice on that, thanks! I notice you give advice a lot on stuff that’s pretty easy for me- or anyone- to handle. Can you please scale it back? I don’t think it’s something I’ve ever done to you, because you’d probably find it annoying too.”

    Good luck!

    1. HugeTractsofLand*

      Oh, also in response to the advice like “you can go ahead and leave at 4” etc. you could pause to look visibly confused before saying “yep, that’s the plan” or “Like usual? Yes.”

  32. Melevator*

    More phrases for your arsenal:

    – Thanks for your concern!
    – I’ll think about that.
    – [silence and nodding]
    – Interesting!
    – Okay!
    – Sure!

    I would be going out of my way to be boring and nonresponsive to this guy. Let him think you took a certain way home or called his personal oncologist or whatever. He doesn’t need to know that you’re living your own life, and one of your goals should be to exit the conversation as quickly as possible.

    I can’t speak to whether or not this guy has OCD – presumably he told you. But if he did tell you in the context of, “oh, you know I’m just OCD about how people do things,” you can just use all of the responses above to that piece of information. His condition has no bearing on what you need to be doing.

    1. jane's nemesis*

      yeah, Gray Rock feels like a really valid technique to use with this guy if he just legit cannot stop!

      1. Rick Tq*

        That may work in a civilian environment but the rules are TOTALLY different for OP and Duke. There is no HR (in the civilian sense) for one thing, and the Personnel detachment takes care of payroll and benefits, they do NOT control discipline.

        This is the miliary, and true orders (which Duke may think he is giving) must be obeyed. If he tells a junior “I think you should” or “You might” those are suggestions, but if Duke phases things like “OP you will take the following route to and from work” that ‘will’ makes it an order, lawful or not.

        Going Gray rock on Duke could drive him to filing charges for Insubordination, a military offence that can be punished informally by the command, formally by Article 15 Non Judicial Punishment, or by a full Courts Martial.

          1. Rick Tq*

            We don’t know that.

            If Duke is the Work Center Supervisor then he can give OP orders in a duty context, even if OP is senior in time in service. Chain of Command is a trump card here. We were both E5s but I was senior time in service and as an E5 and senior for time on the ship but still wasn’t the Work Center Supervisor, and had to do things his way.

            1. Rick Tq*

              PS – and I was damn glad to do it. Doug is a really smart guy and the systems he put in place helped the team do our jobs to a VERY high standard.

          2. Rick Tq*

            If Duke thinks he has authority to give the orders he may file charges if he is being ignored.

            But, just because he files the paperwork doesn’t mean it will go very far..

        2. Irish Teacher.*

          Does it make a difference that the OP has the same rank as him and is not a junior? I honestly don’t know anything even about our own military and I am assuming this refers to the US one so I haven’t a clue. Can he file charges for Insubordination on somebody of the same rank who he has no authority to give orders to?

          1. Rick Tq*

            If Duke is OP’s work supervisor then he can give OP direction (orders) about work activities. If they are true peers he probably cannot in general, but may if Duke is in charge of a specific task or project. The question is what authority does Duke for a specific interaction.

            The question is if Duke can moderate his OCD impulses to understand that things like making a medical appointment or choosing a route to and from work are NOT work or duty-related and ignoring him there is not insubordination or disrespect.

          2. Sergeant Weary*

            Hello! Original LW here. He would not be able to file charges for insubordination. Neither of us is in charge of our section. We’re peers and we have a supervisor who manages the workflow of our office. Sergeant Duke just likes to take charge when our supervisor is out, regardless of the fact that we are doing the same job and reporting to the same person.

        3. philmar*

          Take X route to and from home is not a lawful order from a random guy at your command. There may be caveats such as some kind of anti-terrorism training or an active threat, but someone who is the same rank as I am can’t tell me what route to take to work, and if LW were to say this to the next guy in the chain of command, they would laugh and say, “that’s stupid, you don’t have to do that.”

  33. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    Thanks Alison for closing some of the threads that are doubting the OCD diagnosis. What people fail to realize is that disorders like OCD are not all the same. Honestly I blame TV shows like Monk for this type of betrayal of OCD. Just like any other condition it can show in different ways and to different degrees.

    Furthermore, Even if you yourself have OCD or you know someone who has OCD you cannot say that another person doesn’t have OCD. Especially on testimony of another person. It’s annoying to me when someone says another person doesn’t have a mental illness and is just dismissive. You don’t see it to the same degree as you do other health conditions. “Oh that person can’t have asthma because they are jogging. My friend has asthma and she can’t walk up stairs without needing her inhaler.”

  34. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

    I would approach this directly. Take him aside and say “hey brother, I noticed you take it on yourself to give me a lot of instruction and support around these things, like how to get to my house or when I can leave for the day. I’m curious what’s up with that?”

    And wait for him to respond.

    “Ok, I see it differently, I can manage my own route and such. I see this as being 100% in my lane to manage. I’m even ok with it if I end up doing something different than you would have and I make a mistake or I suffer somehow as a result. I am cool with you but don’t want you to give me guidance like this anymore. Are you good with that?”

    1. Boof*

      Honestly, the only thing the OCD changes is if Duke’s already aware they tend to overexplain and it really is a compulsion. As I understand it, and as other OCDers have said, if it is, then it may be best to accept a certain level of this and just give a short deflection to shut it down each time. – but similarly Duke should accept the deflection, and if not, that’s beyond what the OP should have to deal with/manage at work and worth taking up with superiors and/or bigger conversation with Duke how they need to back off.

  35. curlylox*

    Veteran here, and this is kind of beside the point, but just because they’re the same rank does not make them peers. I was a supervisor of a shop of all E-4s–I was the most senior of them.

  36. Melon Merengue*

    I have contamination-focused OCD. I used to tell people what to do sometimes because I was terrified and felt compelled to protect myself and others. People did not take kindly to it, which I completely understand, but even members of my family forewent compassion and just snapped at me. I’m not sure what your coworker’s ultimate goal is here so idk what exactly could get through to him but I had a friend who WAS knowledgeable and compassionate about my OCD and she once shut me down by saying “you’re asking me this over and over to reassure yourself. I can’t reassure you and I think you already know the answer.” Like, ‘I fully understand this is not your fault but I have boundaries in regards to how much you can probe me or tell me what to do.’ And tbh that did hurt my feelings in the immediate, but she was completely right. There is a kind way to say you truly appreciate his concern but this isn’t your burden to bear.

    1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      What a beautiful script. Thanks for sharing this and for taking it on so well, too. Your experience will help others.

  37. Rhetorician*

    I’ve had a similar situation with a family member. It’s also a case of a good-hearted person who just anxiously wants everything to be done “correctly.”

    I got some traction by calling out the behavior and then making it kind of an inside joke?

    He once actually took a knife out of my hand to show me how to butter my bread propersly, and so I used that as an example. I had a conversation that went kind of like, “I don’t know if you realize it, but in your attempts to help me, you’re actually coming across sort of overbearing. You once told me how to butter my bread! I know it comes from a good place, but I end up annoyed. So I’ll just remind you if you end up doing it again.”

    And then the next time, I was like, “Oops, you’re buttering my bread!” And now it’s become our thing. He’ll say it himself, and even ask, “Am I buttering your bread?” to ask if he’s gone too far.

    Might have to adjust that strategy for the workplace, but having that sort of conversation, in a light-hearted way, worked for me.

    1. Aerin*

      Having some kind of code word/phrase can be really useful, because when you establish it you can make it clear that you’re not angry, you know why they’re doing it, but you still want it to stop. Because conditions like this also tend to feature the particular brainweasel that will interpret the mildest “Hey, could you not?” as “I now hate you forever,” and a clear conversation about it can help shut that brainweasel up.

  38. Sharon*

    If Sarge keeps doing this after you try Alison’s advice, why not talk to Sarge about how to handle it? If it’s an OCD related thing he may be able to provide some insight on the best way to respond/not respond that makes the situation more comfortable for both of you.

  39. cabbagepants*

    Passive-aggressive advice that works great for stubborn cases where the person will not be dissuaded because they’re just! so! sure! that their input is amazing: turn it back on them, ideally with some light teasing, to take away the “being smarter than others” thrill they get.

    “Here is how to drive to your house!” “Haha, thanks, Sergeant, but most of us figure out how to drive home pretty quickly. Are you having trouble with your driving?

    “Here’s how to gain muscle!” “Thanks, but *some* of us don’t need help with that.”

    “Here’s how to make a phone call!” “Aww, I remember when I first figured that out, too! It was so exciting!”

  40. bunniferous*

    I would say “Ok, mother….” in a jokey manner. Rinse and repeat. Might get the point across while preserving the relationship.

    1. Plate of Wings*

      I love this! If they generally get along like LW says, then this or “okay, Dad” would be worth trying (if it feels right with LW’s sense of humor).

  41. You want stories, I got stories*

    I’m actually going to come to Duke’s defense here on one thing. These ones, and I know they are examples, so perhaps not the best examples.

    “* “You can go ahead and take your lunch at eleven if you want.”
    * “You can leave now for your appointment if you like.”
    * “I’m going to be out the rest of the day so just go home at our regular time.””

    I look at these as one employee coordinating with another employee.
    “You can take your lunch at 11, because I want to take my lunch as 12” because I assume only one of you can take a lunch at a time. I did that working retail all of the time, you had to discuss when employees were going to take lunch, cause that one dude who waits forever skews everything. You learn to prompt him.
    “You can leave for your appointment.” I have had people get annoyed with me for leaving potentially too early, like I’m trying to steal time from the company.
    The last one … ok maybe be annoyed. Let me again assume, you both can’t be gone. If he leaves early then you can’t. He is stating, I am leaving early, so you cannot. If you decide to leave early, he can state, “I said I was leaving for the day and he shouldn’t be.” So it might be a bit of CYA there.

    Now I’m making assumptions which could be incorrect.

    1. e271828*

      The guy is literally telling OP how to get home, how to make a doctor’s appointment, and OP does not need instructions or permission to do any of the things that “Sergeant Duke” is trying to give instructions or permission for.

      1. You want stories, I got stories*

        Please reread my comment, since I do not mention any of that.

    2. doreen*

      I was thinking something similar but only about the first two – I can see telling someone they can take their lunch at 11 or leave for their appointment if there had to be some coordination with me. Maybe they were going to leave at 3 for the appointment but I tell them they can leave at 2 because I can cover, that sort of thing. But it wasn’t only that kind of situation – if my coworker tells me he’s leaving early, there no need for him to tell me I should just go home at the regular time. He could stop at ” I’m leaving early” . If one of us has to stay and he told me he’s leaving early , of course I know to stay until the the end of the day. And he’s giving instructions that have nothing to do with coordinating schedules , such as how to make an appointment or which route to take home. The first two examples are only accidently sort of OK .

  43. Delta Delta*

    OP writes that this is Sarge’s diagnosis, which means Sarge knows this is his diagnosis. that also suggests to me that OP could tell Sarge that although she knows he has this diagnosis, it doesn’t mean he gets to control her or try to. If Sarge is as great as OP says – and he may be great – he should listen and hear that what he’s doing is distressing/difficult for her.

  44. H.Regalis*

    Sergeant Duke must have god-tier charisma if people still like him after having to interact with him.

    I was in an abusive relationship with someone who was extremely controlling and they did this stuff too, so this strongly reminds me of that and quite frankly is aggravating just to read; but why Sergeant Duke is doing this doesn’t actually matter. Accommodations for mental health issues are not “put up with my symptoms no matter how annoying or rage-inducing they are.”

    Basically, do what Alison says, and remember that if he gets huffy or flips out at you for not letting him boss you around, that doesn’t mean you did something wrong. He wants to order you around and you don’t want that. There isn’t a way to enforce your boundaries with someone who wants to violate them where everyone is going to walk away happy.

    1. Fan of the Alison*

      “There isn’t a way to enforce your boundaries with someone who wants to violate them where everyone is going to walk away happy.”

      This belongs on a billboard, thank you.

  45. KKR*

    So I’ve heard my spouse discuss this about some NCOs of around the same rank. I think sometimes people in the military can get caught up in the “I’m in charge and I have to be a leader/pass word/make sure things get done ok” and forget that they are with their family or their friends, or even other NCOs. I wonder if this coworker came from a work environment like that and doesn’t realize that he doesn’t need to be the team leader in this situation. I think Alison’s scripts that convey “I’ve got this” and remind him that you are also another Sgt (or whatever) will help

  46. j*

    I had a coworker just like this, but in retail. It wasn’t OCD, but a constant level of everything going to DEF CON 5. I’d sign in for my shift, check my assignment, see that I was on registers, he’d come over to me (at the registers!) and tell me I needed to be there. I’d just always respond with, “okay.” He’d always escalate to “no, you don’t understand, you need to be here.” me: “okay.” “It’s gonna get busy and we need someone up here.” “Okay.” and so on. The more he’d work himself up, the more I’d respond with “okay.” I don’t think he ever caught on that I wasn’t going to escalate and that I was mostly just messing with him, but my petty self enjoyed seeing him have a near meltdown about nothing nearly every day.

  47. Sparkles McFadden*

    The reason why Sergeant Duke does what he does doesn’t change how to deal with the behavior. You just need to say “Thanks, I’ve got it” (or some other polite variation) every time. Responding in this neutral way soon becomes a reflex like saying “good morning” or “how are you” to everyone. If knowing the reason behind the behavior helps you say “Thanks, I’ve got it” with a nice, breezy tone, that’s good. If not, you just have to learn to tune it out.

  48. Elbe*

    I think that this letter (and the resulting comments) are symptom of a larger trend about where we are, as a society, regarding mental health. It’s such a positive thing that the negative, dismissive ideas about mental health are changing, but it’s also apparent that a lot of people don’t have the nuanced understanding to handle mental-health related concerns well.

    We’ve gotten so many letters that include a variation of the following:
    – An employee is seemingly permitted (or thinks that they should be permitted) to continue behavior (hoarding, having outbursts, not completing work) that is harmful to others because the cause of the behavior may be mental health related
    – An employee who is genuinely struggling is not being given even a small amount of wiggle room because their condition is “not an excuse”

    And I think that these two things can be related. When people worry that anyone with a diagnosis can harm them with impunity, they tend to ‘defend’ themselves by a) doubt the diagnosis or nitpicking symptoms or b) being resistant to even reasonable accommodations.

    I think that Alison’s advice is great because it works regardless of the diagnosis. Calmly, politely shutting down this type of behavior would be appropriate for anyone, whether they have some underlying issues or not. It really removes the need to get very involved in someone else’s health diagnosis, and validates that everyone is allowed to advocate for themselves.

    1. Lana Kane*

      “Calmly, politely shutting down this type of behavior would be appropriate for anyone, whether they have some underlying issues or not. It really removes the need to get very involved in someone else’s health diagnosis, and validates that everyone is allowed to advocate for themselves.”

      Yes! I think we’re at the early stages in our society of accepting that mental health is important and there is much more *awareness*, but we’re still flailing about on how to act on that awareness. And perhaps out of compassion and wanting to do the right thing, we are paralyzed when a behavior impacts us but is seen to come from a mental health issue. A lot of content I see online about this exacerbates fear because in the effort to protect those who are dealing with mental health issues, the messaging is black and white. So we’re just not sure what to do. And that’s where it’s important to socialize that negative behaviors that stem from mental health issues should be understood, but not ignored to the detriment of others. (And also, how to draw those boundaries with compassion for both parties).

  49. AngelS.*

    You’re on the phone with your healthcare provider and he chimes in?? Automatic NO!

  50. Dawn*

    Speaking as a person with diagnosed mental health conditions, those of us who are a part of that community tend to say that your condition is an explanation, but does not excuse bad behaviour; that’s still on you to manage, and many, many people – if not most people with mental health conditions – do manage it. And you can find variations on this again, and again, and again; people with mental health conditions and mental health professionals almost universally agree on this concept.

    That doesn’t mean that it’s wrong of you to be kind and compassionate with your coworker, but it does mean that it is absolutely ok for you to set boundaries, and it is his responsibility to manage his behaviour regarding them. He can help it. It may not be easy for him, but he can, and should. It may well be a compulsion, but a core part of living with compulsions is learning when and how to resist them, and right now it sounds like everyone is just enabling him not to manage his symptoms.

  51. Sergeant Weary*

    Hello, all! I am the original LW. Alison, thanks so much for your advice and thank you to everyone in the comments who is offering advice. A quick note: my examples of Sergeant Duke’s compulsions are not speculation; he has freely offered up his diagnosis and shared several of those compulsions with the office, including the need to control everyone’s schedules/movements/days/etc. I’ve brought up my irritation with our shared supervisor, whose response has been somewhat laissaz-faire: “Oh, you know, that’s just how he is. Even I can’t get him to stop doing it.”

    Also, I’d never heard of the gray rock method until these comments. I’ll look into it and see if it might be helpful in some of these situations. I’m not sure it would be appropriate at all times, but maybe a heads-up of, “If you continue to try to advise me on this, I’m going to ignore you,” would be effective.

    Additionally, Sergeant Duke will be moving on soon (across the country), so this will all be a vaguely frustrating memory. But I will definitely employ some of the phrases I’ve come across here. Thanks, all!

    1. Rat Racer*

      OP I’m just curious: are there norms and protocols in the military that make this situation different than it would be in a civilian, corporate work environment? It doesn’t sound like it based on the advice and comments — but when I read your letter, I started wondering whether different rules apply about what you can/cannot say to your co-workers if you’re in the military. You said you were both the same rank, so maybe those norms and protocols only exist between colleagues in different hierarchical positions. I’m asking purely out of curiosity, knowing next to nothing about what it’s like to be in the armed services.

      1. Bella Ridley*

        Everything about the way you relate to your co-workers is different in the military. Everything. The advice and most of the comments here are not coming from a place with that experience. Your question is really too broad to even be addressed here–like, in the military it is acceptable for your boss to give you a direct order and you are subject to punishment if you don’t obey. And that is literally just the tip of the iceberg.

    2. Bella Ridley*

      Have you brought it up to your supervisor in a just-bitching way, or in an actual “I need you to action this” type way? Because if I’m being honest, troops bitch all day long about everything including each other, and my response is usually going to be eh, whatever, I don’t have time to get into it. But if one of them came to me with an actual, serious “This is a real problem, I need help addressing it,” then I’d take it more seriously and look into addressing it. Which it sounds like you may actually need to do for the betterment of everyone in your shop, because if he’s doing it to everyone else, you are setting up a terrible dynamic for your subordinates that their supervisor will attempt to give them direction on every little thing in their lives, and they won’t be able to speak up like you can as a peer. This is part of your duty towards them.

    3. AF Vet*

      Coming at this from memories growing up in the Army, but have been in or with the AF for 20 years now. A few thoughts:

      * Since Sgt Duke has freely and openly shared that this is something he struggles with, are there phrases y’all can come up with to tell him to lay off? i.e. “Stand down, soldier. I got this” in a warm way?

      * In the AF we have MFLCs (Military & Family Life Counselors) who embed with our units. This is a conversation I’d rope mine in on, especially if Sgt Duke is okay with it. They can help y’all have a frank discussion about triggers, ways to mitigate, ways to help, what’s really helpful vs not when it comes to anxiety spin, etc. While not his personal therapist, they are trained in CBT and other short-term strategies to diffuse tensions.

      Hooray for him PCSing out of your hair soon, AND that y’all have a supportive enough command that he CAN be open about his condition and how it impacts him at work! It’s been a LOOOOOOOONG process to get it here, but your command team seems to be on top of mental health concerns.

    4. OCDHaver*

      Dang. That’s stinks (with regard to your supervisor). I know OCD treatment is a process and recovery takes time, but I don’t think that makes Sergeant Duke’s butting in ok. Then again, the kind of OCD I have is a bit more self-focused, so I haven’t been his shoes.

      I hope you find good ways to dismiss his intrusions and I hope that he finds a great treatment method that will help him with his controlling tendencies. It’s not an easy process, but it is so worth it.

  52. Another Reader With OCD*

    It’s so funny how many of the commenters are like “well I have OCD and this doesn’t sound like it to me.” I have OCD and absolutely have a problem with this kind of thing! Extremely weird to argue about it given that we should know that the specific behaviors of people with OCD vary really vastly.

    I have to quibble with folks saying to ignore the OCD aspect of it, because you kind of have to work with the root cause of something when you’re talking about dealing with anyone. For me, the reason I have a tendency to do this is because I am really strongly compelled to help. Folks with OCD have literally overdeveloped regions in the brain that relate to planning and also to consequences, which is a big cause of a lot of the stuff you see with us. For me, I am constantly trying (without really meaning to, it’s just my background default brain mode) to plan and figure out the “best” way to do anything and everything.

    So when folks around me are talking about doing something, I am immediately like, oh I know the BEST way! I can help tell you the best way! Because you might know, but what if you DON’T know?? Then you won’t do the best way! I should tell you, then I can make sure that you too will know the best way!! It’s not rooted in thinking other people are incompetent or even feeling like I need to control. I get the thought that, if I knew helpful information (planning) and didn’t share it, I have done something bad (consequences). I have to actively remind myself to head off that compulsion when I feel it, and consciously make myself remember that the person I’m talking to does not need or want that from me. It is entirely a mechanism of relieving my own anxiety– which is what most OCD behaviors are.

    So I think if you’re just both kind and honest about how you do not want to receive this stuff from him, he’ll understand it just fine. We generally know what stuff we do bothers people, or at least have no problem understanding it when it’s pointed out. But whether we can easily tamp it down is another story, because it’s very automatic and natural. I mean, it’s literally compulsive. Since you have a good relationship I think being direct while also being empathetic to that angle of it is the way to go, and just know that gently reminding him if he keeps doing it also might be necessary. Don’t take relapses into nagging as intentional disrespect or disregard.

  54. Al Mack*

    Not making any sort of judgment on the veracity of Sergeant Duke’s OCD diagnosis, I feel for LW as the parent of a child with symptoms that present as OCD. It can be very difficult to communicate effectively through these kinds of ongoing intrusive thoughts.

    The method that seems to work best for us is “no -engagement response,” basically attempting to break the intrusive thought cycle by refusing to entertain the worry or fixation. Alison’s advice is pretty much NER in practice in that it attempts to shut down the conversation from the get-go. There is no back and forth, just, “I’ve got it, thanks.” It can feel a little short or rude to speak so plainly in our implication culture but it really does work, don’t let social norms color your language in this case.

    That said, the real solution is for LW’s boss to do the work in therapy. He has no business micromanaging these things and he probably knows it; part of managing OCD is practicing coping skills to eliminate the control-seeking in the first place. Hopefully non-engagement works for LW but ultimately the boss is the one responsible for his own mental health, and it’s unreasonable to put that kind of emotional dysfunction on LW.

  55. Polly Hedron*

    “No-engagement response” is a good strategy, but please note that Sergeant Duke is just a coworker, not “LW’s boss”.

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