open thread – July 12, 2024

by Alison Green on July 12, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,071 comments }

{ 1,071 comments… read them below }

  1. HonorBox*

    I’m anticipating a situation and looking for advice on the best way to respond. Problem coworker has moved on, is apparently unhappy in their new role, and has told anyone who will listen that they’re applying for other roles. The problems they presented were numerous and weeks after their departure, we’re still dealing with some of the mess that was created. I’m positive that I wouldn’t be listed as an official reference, but I’ve heard that they’re in the running for a role and would be working with (maybe for?) a friend of mine. While I won’t be doing anything proactively, I’m sort of anticipating a call from that friend since she would know that problem coworker and I worked together. I’m torn on how I should respond if that call comes. On the one hand, not my circus. On the other hand, I’d hate to put a friend in the same spot we found ourselves in for too long. What’s the best way to tap dance through this should it happen?

    1. Susan Calvin*

      Maybe that makes me a gossip, but I’m team “friends don’t knowingly let friends make bad hiring decisions” – I’d actually be a bit miffed if it came out that someone I considered a friend didn’t proactively warn me in a situation like this.

      1. Meep*

        +1 It can be “off-the-record” since you aren’t a reference. Something as simple as “Let’s just say you know that coworker I was always complaining about over drinks?”

      1. HonorBox*

        I would want that. Both you and @Susan Calvin above make good points about my feelings if the shoe happened to be on the other foot.

        1. Bruce*

          If this person asks you to be a reference tell them you don’t agree. If your friend asks you then you need to be honest, but also tell them that you are not an official reference and to not out you as giving a bad reference. I was careless about a reference one time, the recruiter called me claiming that I was a reference and I was not positive. Some other guys did the same thing and we were all threatened with a lawsuit. So refuse to give an official reference, but your friend deserves your honest opinion.

          1. Observer*

            Some other guys did the same thing and we were all threatened with a lawsuit.

            That stinks. But it’s worth noting that at least in the US, truth is an absolute defense. So ifyou stuck to a strctly factual respose, they would have no grounds.

            Of course some people will sue anyway. But there really is a limit to how much you can reasonably do to keep unreaosnable peope from behaving unreasonably.

        2. linger*

          You don’t need to list all Problem Employee’s faults outright. What your friend needs to know is whether or not Problem Employee could be a good fit for their vacancy, given your experience of their work. Helping establish this is something that could help Problem Employee too, as there is no point in setting them up to fail! So you can help them both by following this outline:
          1. What made Problem Employee unsuited for their old position or work environment?
          2. What kind of position or work environment would Problem Employee be better suited for?
          3. Is the position/work environment your friend is hiring for one that Problem Employee could potentially be suited to, or is it more like Old Position?

    3. BellaStella*

      Just be factual and limit the call if they call. The person’s dates of employment, the title, nothing more. Refusing to add more than that says a lot. I would say nothing more to any questions just nope nope nope. Or if there is a way to quantify how badly this person cost your org and you are still cleaning up that mess maybe try to be diplomatic that way? I dunno, even that seems bad now that I read it. I am sure others have better advice. In the archives here I think searching for “reference” may yield advice?

      1. Rosyglasses*

        you can do this and then mention that they are ineligible for rehire at your company. That is a legitimate questions most HR folks will ask when reaching out for references and work history and speaks volumes.

      2. Banana Pyjamas*

        That’s kind of an unfair interpretation of neutral data. At least two of my previous employers only confirm that as a blanket policy.

    4. SansaStark*

      I think this is one of those situations where you present everything in a factual manner. Ex-coworker did ABC which caused XYZ problem and impacted DEF. I’d steer clear of any opinions or speculations if that feels weird – for example, if you suspected that she did ABC because she was secretly feuding with a random coworker, you could keep that to yourself. Just focus on the actions and impact to allow your friend to draw her own conclusions about whether she wants to move forward with the interview process.

    5. Alex*

      You’re allowed to tell the truth. Don’t make it personal (ie, problem coworker is an awful person!) but you are allowed to say that you had problems with her, if you did. That is what references are for.

      1. Frank Doyle*

        I agree! Especially since you personally know the person who would be calling and consider them a friend! Why wouldn’t you be honest? Stick to the facts, but please, be honest.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          Agreed. Don’t go after the coworker in any way; simply list the problems you had with her work.

    6. Tia Nova*

      No tap dancing is needed. Be honest and factual about the issues this former colleague presented – you do not have any obligation to that person, and your friend deserves the truth (f they do in fact ask). This is just how references and reputations work.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Exactly! Asking your network for an honest opinion about a potential hire (or new job, for that matter) is part of what your network is for. Don’t be vindictive or snarky, but an honest opinion is completely appropriate.

        Also, if you lie, and they hire the person, it will damage the friendship. If, for some reason, you can’t give a direct opinion, there are ways of saying “no comment” that actually do express an opinion.

        One caveat – if you can’t trust your friend to be appropriately discreet / diplomatic when it comes to passing along your opinion, it could still damage your relationship with your friend, but you would have a good reason to risk that.

    7. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I wouldn’t go into details because your company may not like that — depending on the disfunction, it could impact your business’ reputation or end up divulging confidential information — but you can certainly state, “I can not recommend hiring this person,” or if they aren’t in the hiring position, “I wouldn’t want her back on my team and I would avoid working with her.”

      1. anonymous anteater*

        If you want to couch it a little, you could specify “wouldn’t hire this person for a role that requires a lot of XYZ skill/deals with a lot of abc topic”.

    8. Rat Racer*

      Cosigning all that has been said above. I would just add that you could also sprinkle in a positive word or two (if you can think of anything that is true). Your friend will latch on to the red flags for sure, and then you don’t have to worry about having trashed someone. If you say “Coworker XYZ was a mixed bag, on the one hand, they were great at typing, but on the other, they consistently missed deadlines and had frequent conflict with coworkers” your friend will get the point.

      1. GDUB*

        One of my colleagues made it clear what she thought of a past employee when I asked her if I should hire him. She said, “Well, he was punctual….” Enough said.

    9. WantonSeedStitch*

      I have had friends call me to ask about former employees who were less than stellar. I was frank about their strengths and weaknesses, but as objective as I could possibly be. “They were highly analytical and put a lot of thought into any analysis I asked of them.” “It was hard giving them critical feedback because they had a tendency to take it extremely personally even when it was given in a neutral, matter-of-fact way.”

    10. NormalPractice*

      It is very common to get these calls, and in my experience information flows. I have walked into numerous interviews to be told “I know so-and-so former coworker so I asked him about you” and then to have stuff come up during the interview that clearly came from that conversation.

      I’ve never worked at a company that had a “no references” policy; if yours does I would follow it. otherwise I’d be fact oriented but honest. Anything based off of opinion in any way that is mentioned should be called out as such.

    11. jasmine*

      I would argue that a friend’s happiness is very much your circus. That’s how it is with people you love.

      1. anonymous anteater*

        especially if they reach out to you and invite your opinion! If that’s not your circus, what is?

    12. Hyaline*

      Between that call and now, I’d try to find the language to describe Problem Coworker as factually as possible–that is, if Problem was consistently flaky, “Joe missed many deadlines without adequate communication” rather than “Joe was flaky” or “Joe drove his team bats” or whatever–something I’m sure you’d aim for anyway, but it helps me to have my vocabulary well in hand before a stressful phone call rather than scrambling during to put things into words.

      And I’d reconsider staying radio silent if this is a friend AND if you think Problem Coworker is a true trash fire who would spread dysfunction to your friend’s team. I’d stay out of it if you just didn’t like the person, but if there are legit, consistent, problem behaviors that you can factually explain..I think I would tip the friend off. It might be especially helpful if you feel Problem Coworker might have fluffed his references to stay away from people who would be honest about shortcomings–pointing your friend to a useful reference could be really helpful. Depending on your usual communication, even something as simple as “I heard Joe applied for the Hamster Tutu Designer role on your team. Just a heads up from working with him, I would make sure you do your usual diligence in checking his references, and maybe talk to Susan from the Cat Tiara design team.”

    13. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      “not my circus”
      It is your circus, if a friend asks. You would likely damage, or even lose, a friendship if you let her take on a nightmare without warning.

      As with any reference, remove emotion and stick to the facts, e.g. not eligible for rehire, caused problems a,b & c, you’re still dealing with issues x,y & z after she left.
      That’s what you should tell anyone asking about this ex-employee, but you can elaborate more for a friend.

    14. HonorBox*

      Thanks everyone for the solid advice! I have an update, much sooner than expected. I did not get a call, but heard through the grapevine that former coworker did in fact get the job. My sincere hope is that the problematic behavior either a) corrects itself in the new environment or b) is sniffed out quickly due to the new workplace’s setup and system and corrective measures can be taken swiftly.

      I’m guessing option B is more likely because we’ve heard that in the interim position this coworker had, the behaviors did in fact continue.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Well, nothing you can do now.

        I’d examine why you didn’t want to help prevent a friend from making a poor hiring decision.

        It’s not gossip if you tell the truth about how this former coworker was a poor employee.

        1. HonorBox*

          It wasn’t so much that I didn’t want to help a friend. More, just was trying to figure out how to answer the question, if asked. I didn’t want to frame something in an “official” capacity – i.e. “not eligible for re-hire” – when I wouldn’t be speaking in an official capacity.

          1. linger*

            See my comment upthread for one way to avoid seeming to give an official/HR verdict in answering the question.
            It still may not yet be too late to follow up with any tips you may have for your friend in how to best manage Problem Employee, e.g. what elements of their work or behaviour may need the most scrutiny or benefit most from training.

    15. Falling Diphthong*

      This is what a professional reputation is. If you didn’t realize Sondra coached Little League with one of the people at your prospective new employer, well, this is why you try to make sure Sondra thinks well of your skills and professionalism. Even when you have no idea that connection exists.

    16. It's an Ice Cream day.*

      I would think that as soon as you hear the bad ex-coworkers name IMMEDIATELY responding with loud, frantic “Nope! Nope! Nope! Not Re-hirable!” would get the point across with nothing else needing to be said.

  2. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

    My son is starting his first real world job as an electrical apprentice on Monday. This is a field I’m not familiar with in the least but I think he’ll excel at. Advice for him and advice for me to not try and “manage” him too much!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Eyes open, ears open, mouth shut except to ask questions. Pay attention to everything that’s going on – if you’re assisting a journeyman (holding a light, passing tools, etc), watch what he’s doing. Ask WHY he’s doing something.

      1. Bruce*

        Be careful with ladders and with lifting, everyone I know who works on ladders has had at least one bad fall, and it is easy to ruin your back in your 20s

    2. PropJoe*

      Do not mess with lock out tag out or any other safety measure. Violations won’t just get your son fired, they can get someone injured or killed.

      Do not mess around with safety. At all.

      2. Random Academic Cog*

        Thirding this. My son works in the electrical field and has seen some traumatizing incidents from people not paying enough attention to safety.

      3. Angstrom*

        Regarding safety, be wary of anyone who gives him the “That’s not how it works in the real world” excuse for safety shortcuts.
        Read the Code, know the Code for the type of work he’s doing.

      4. Bruce*

        I have a couple of stories I could share, but they are very grim. Bottom line, follow the safety rules.

        1. PropJoe*

          When I worked in a teapot factory, I knew people who had lost hands & feet due to someone else not following lock out tag out properly.

          There were very few things there that would get you fired & escortes off property immediately. Violating lock out tag out was one of them.

      5. Ellis Bell*

        Will never forget the inquest of two young electricians fixing industrial machinery who didn’t use LOTO.

    3. Panicked*

      Be on time, be on time, be on time.

      Take good care of this tools.

      Embrace the scut work. He’s not going to be doing much “fun” stuff right away.

      Protect the back! Lift with the knees and ask for help if something is too heavy.

      Keep solid track of hours. He’ll need them for further licenses. Most companies are very good at maintaining accurate records, but some aren’t.

      It’s not just about the hands on work. Start learning the science and reasoning behind the work!

      Learn to bend pipe really well. It will be a huge advantage.

      1. DJ Abbott*

        Second learning the science. It’s not my field at all but when I was considering trade work, I found electrician to be confusing. Understanding the science will make a huge difference in how well he does, and how far he can go.
        If It’s like the difference between a medical technician who administers medicine as ordered, and a doctor who understands what medicine to administer and why.

    5. Office Plant Queen*

      I’m not in that field at all, but always prioritize safety. Even if the people around him cut corners or don’t use PPE or whatever, he should follow all safety rules. It is better to lose your job than your arm (or your life!) Hopefully everyone around him also takes this kind of stuff seriously, but sometimes people equate masculinity with danger/risk, which can lead to dumb decisions, or a lot peer pressure to make dumb decisions. Similarly, it’s not uncommon in male dominated fields to have That One Guy who enjoys messing with people just to see how far they can take it. Usually, standing up to them will earn their respect.

      As for you: don’t offer advice unless he asks you. Only exception is if he’s talking about something you know is illegal, like not being paid on time or being punished for talking about working conditions – in which case definitely tell him and link him to any relevant resources about those laws. If there’s practical stuff like making sure he gets to work on time, ask him if he wants help with that, or if he wants to handle it on his own. Same with stuff like setting up direct deposit for his paychecks, filling out appropriate tax forms, signing up for benefits, etc.

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      Remind him that his safety comes first, and it’s better to get fired than get hurt. Limit your advice to him to stuff that is applicable in ANY field: e.g., “be responsive when others communicate with you, and proactive when communicating with them. Too much communication is always better than not enough because you can pare it down when you figure out how much you really need.”

    7. Betty*

      In the advice for you: he has a manager, who isn’t you. Play the long game– when he’s 40, do you want him to be someone who trusts you to be a sympathetic listener and valued sounding board, or who avoids talking about work stuff with you because he knows you’ll overstep? What you do now will determine which of those you’ll have 20 years from now.

      1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        Exactly! “Have a great day and be safe, love you!” is all she should say when he leaves for work.

    8. Samwise*

      Speaking from personal experience;

      Ask him questions about how it’s going, what is he learning, what does he like about it, what did he have for lunch, did he have any trouble getting the bus to work….

      If you have Opinions about any of this, keep them to yourself.

      1. ecnaseener*

        At the same time, remember it’s tiring/overwhelming to start a new job and don’t be surprised if he doesn’t want to talk through the details right away. (Brought to you by my mom, yesterday, wanting to call to hear all about my first day at my new job when I just wanted to collapse on the couch and watch mindless tv.)

        1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

          We’ve already made a rule I can only ask him about work on Fridays.

          1. dbc*

            Speaking of circuits, my brain somehow rewired my first reading of the situation into, “my son is starting work as an electrical appliance…” so glad it was clarified on the re-read, and best of luck to your son!

    9. Goddess47*

      When he comes home and starts complaining about anything, ask him if he’s venting or if he needs solutions. Your parent-instinct will be to offer solutions but sometimes he just needs to vent.

      In fact, talk about that ahead of time. You know yourself and him, and letting him know that coming home to vent is a ‘safe’ thing to do. So he’s not ‘that complaining guy’ at work.

      Good luck to both of you!

      1. ScruffyInternHerder*

        (Noting for anyone who’s kids aren’t quite there yet as far as a real-world job, this is also good advice when they start spewing about school to you at 10 p.m. – “are you venting or do you need some help finding a solution?”)

      2. kalli*

        Honestly I would go one step further and just not ask or raise it and let them bring it up, then ‘do you need me to listen or do you want to talk this through?’ type questions to direct the way kid wants.

        I say this because I used to call to check on my parents once a day (yep, rural parents half an hour away from an ambulance did not fall, are ok, don’t need me to run errands today) and for real, a lot of the time it evolved into ‘you must tell us all about your work day in detail’ and I’d be getting home from a 14 hour day and have to spend two hours recounting it and if I hung up they’d call back (and if you pulled a landline out at the wall it still affected the internet in those days), if I said I needed food they’d be like ‘well get your food and we’ll eat together’ and just truly believed they were helping when they insisted on detailed recounting of work trauma EVERY SINGLE DAY, because, you know, if you don’t talk about stuff it blows up in your brain. And if I didn’t call them, they would call! If I said I didn’t want to talk about it they just kept asking until I did!

        It’s very easy to not be that parent once you decide to be, but it’s emotionally quite hard to set that boundary and stick to it – it gets easier the more you do it, but especially if they’ve just moved out/had a major change and you used to be really close, it’s really hard to stop relying on the ‘parent card’ and the former power imbalance and accept a kid leaving work at work as healthy for them and not a slight on you because they don’t want to share it. Since it’s his first job as well he may not know how he handles that for himself either as to how much he brings home and how he processes with work events – if he WANTS to vent and comes to you and goes ‘so I had the most batshit bananapants day today’ then listen! yes. But give him the room to bring it up and don’t push it if he doesn’t.

        “Did you have a good day?”
        “It was a day.”
        “Want to talk about it?”
        “Nope.”
        “Okay, so today I went to the shops and there was a koala hanging out in the middle of the road. Nobody knows how it got there!”
        is a perfectly normal conversation (whether it’s a koala or a monkey or bigfoot or whatever goes in the placeholder example) that my parents never did and it ended up exacerbating my batshit-bananapants-workplace trauma because it was retraumatising, not therapeutic, and even before it got to that point I never had the ‘get home and chill out and leave work at work’ experience. (For real, I had a full on breakdown and it was actual real harassment that meant I won workers comp for stress, and my dad just sat there crying on the phone being like “whatever happens please don’t stop telling us about it!!” and also “don’t quit because you need the money and you will never get another job”.)

        This may sound really really obvious to normal people who aren’t boomer helicopter parents, I don’t know. But please, give your son the grace of deciding where his boundary is, and if in the event he does have 2-3 hours a night’s worth of harassment to recount, just tell him it’s not okay and let him go watch TV instead of recounting it outside therapy.

        /your probably TMI friendly neighbourhood comment section

    11. RETIRED CONTRACTOR*

      Pack a lunch as much as possible the savings is amazing. If someone is yelling stop look around to see what others are doing and do the same.

    12. Loz*

      If you’re not familiar with the industry then don’t try to give advice other than to seek it out from other reliable sources.
      Stick to the generic “don’t be a dickhead and stand up for yourself” as per this site.

  3. EngGirl*

    Just for fun, rank the following in order of importance/preference:

    1.) Good coworkers that you like and do their jobs well

    2.) A higher than average salary

    3.) Work that you genuinely enjoy doing

    4.) A job located in your ideal environment

    5.) A 35 hour work week with no need for overtime

    6.) Any other “x-factor” that you want to throw in that you think I’ve missed.

    My sister and I have been talking more about our careers and what we want out of life and I’ve found it really interesting to see the differences in what makes a job “ideal” for us. For example we both rate money pretty highly, but I’d rather work shorter hours with people I like at a job that I’m meh about. My sister would choose a 60 hour week with people who are just ok at a job that she loves, and ideally where she’s got some executive prestige going on. I’m curious where other people fall and if you value certain things over others what those things are. I’d also be interested to hear where you are in your careers because I feel like there are certain things that are more valuable at different points in your life.

    1. HonorBox*

      3,1,2,4,5,6.

      Salary is important, but if I’m dreading coming to work every day, either because I hate the work or coworkers are not pleasant to be around, the pay isn’t nearly worth the other negative points.

      1. EngGirl*

        That’s so fair, and the more I think about this the more I realize there’s definitely a sliding scale on some of these. Like I would be willing to put up with not great coworkers and a certain level of bad job for a truly ludicrous salary and lots of PTO, but there are some jobs I wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole no matter how much you paid me, for example anything with snakes comes to mind.

    5. Too Long Til Retirement*

      4, 3, 5, 2, 1.

      My environment is so important when it comes to working well. I think that if I could have the flexibility to add novelty to my job by changing my work environment to fit whatever brain funk I am in, my work would be so much better. And if I can enjoy the work in a great environment?? Yes please!

      I would also love the shortest work week possible. I prefer my life outside of work to working, so the more time I get to spend living the better. I have not gotten more than a week’s break from working my entire professional career, and I am BURNT OUT. I don’t know how long I would need to take off before I would start thinking “Hmm I need to do some work now.”

      Coworkers matter to me somewhat, but as an introvert I just need them to be friendly, not my friends.

    6. londonedit*

      1, 5, 4, 3, 2

      As I’ve got older I definitely appreciate work/life balance much more – my current job is 35 hours a week with no expectation of overtime and no expectation that I’ll answer emails outside my working hours (I don’t even have work email or Teams on my phone). I have sacrificed a higher salary for that, but it’s worth it. I also can no longer be arsed faffing about with a complicated commute. Changing tube lines more than once? Absolutely not.

    7. Bast*

      If we’re talking in general — 5, 2, 6, 1, 3, 4.

      For me, the 6 is PTO. A somewhat decent amount of PTO is important to me.

      I am also going to assume that we’re not talking dreadful in any circumstance. For example, if an environment was truly dreadful with abusive management and deadbeat coworkers, that would change my ranking over a place with just average management and average coworkers (if that makes sense).

    8. Alex*

      For me, 6 would be “Room for growth and learning”. I can’t be stagnant without increasing my knowledge and contributions.

      So I would say 6, 2, 3, 1, 4, 5

    9. Box of Kittens*

      Mine is 5, 1, 3, 2, 4 – this is assuming an average salary and an okay work environment, not terrible. 3 and 1 could potentially be interchangeable, but I’ve found that the energy of my coworkers really affects me, and because I work better in person, good coworkers make a HUGE difference in my enjoyment of work. This is a really interesting and thoughtful question!

      1. EngGirl*

        Hey thanks! My sister and I are both in our early 30s and we were talking about plans for the holiday weekend and she mentioned she needed to log in and take care of some things for a few hours. I told her that sucked and I felt bad for her, but she was like “No, I’m actually super into what I’m working on right now, so it’s great that I can get some time to really focus on it.”

        My first thought was “never in my life have I been so into my job that I would willingly work for free over a holiday.” Which lead me down a rabbit hole of thinking about what other people value lol

    10. The Other Sage*

      1 – A 25 hour work week. This is not a typo, right now I can’t work more thanks to a health condition that doctors refuse to take seriously.
      2 – Ideal environment, because of the same issues as in 1. It used to be different, though.
      3 – Good coworkers that you like and do their jobs well. With horrible or even meh coworkers, I feel quickly isolated.
      4 – A job I enjoy doing. It’s still important, but it’s not a requirement to be able to work without burning out.
      5 – While a higher than average salary sounds awesome, I’m also happy with an average one :)

      1. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

        When I was younger – 6,2,3,1,5,4 with 6 being room for growth – building a career,

        Now – I am at the point where I am largely working for benefits and to shore up my retirement – 3,1,4,6,5,2 with 3.1.4 being all pretty equal, 6 now meaning great benefits, 5 would be amazing but I haven’t found that, 2 being there is no way I get the other 5 and also get 2.

    11. DisneyChannelThis*

      5,4,3,2,1

      I can work with jerks. I can find meaning through volunteering, I can find enjoyment through my friends and hobbies. I can’t find either of those if I am constantly working. My health suffers a lot too when I get pressure to not use PTO and skip dentist etc.

    12. Claire (Scotland)*

      3, 5, 1, 2, 4 (6)

      I’m a teacher, so I’m used to not making much money. But having work that is genuinely satisfying is the most important thing to me – if I’m going to trade a chunk of my time for money it has to be meaningful. And as a teacher I’m also used to working a lot of extra hours for no extra pay, so if I could do my job within that time I’d be ecstatic – I’d get back so much valuable time and be able to do so much more. Good colleagues can make or break my day at work as much as the students do, so that’s next. More money would be nice but it wouldn’t make that much impact on my life unless I had the time and energy to do something with it.

    13. Jay (no, the other one)*

      3, 1, 5, 4, 6, 2

      6 = PTO and autonomy, both of which are essential, as well as no weekends/call (specific to my field – I’m a doc)

      I realize that it’s easy for me to put salary last because I’m in a highly paid field, so “average” is plenty.

    14. not applicable*

      6 (flexibility of schedule is a need for me now that I’ve experienced it; being trusted to work x amount of hours a week without being policed about time in and out is precious), 2, 1, 4, 3, 5

    15. Learn ALL the things?*

      I’m going to go with 5, 4, 1, 3, 2.

      The main thing I learned during the pandemic is that I was spending way too much time stressing over work stuff and not enough time taking care of myself, so a schedule that lets me turn off work at the end of the day, in an environment where I’m comfortable with is way more important to me than money. Money matters, especially because I’m not married so the only income I have access to is my own, and there are jobs I’d love to do that I can’t afford, but if the job meets my financial needs, I don’t feel a strong push to make the highest amount possible.

    16. hypoglycemic rage*

      I have most of my work experience in libraries, and I decided to switch out a few years ago. I am now an office admin at a law firm. Def not what I thought I’d be doing with I graduated from library school, but I love my job. It’s a 9-5 office job, and I love a schedule, but the job itself is usually varied enough where I don’t know what exactly I am going to do when I walk into work each day. It also pays my bills and everyone is so kind and helpful, and the location is great (downtown Chicago and I have a pretty easy commute).

      When I was looking for jobs, my priorities were:
      – could I afford rent, etc with the salary? (a few jobs I applied for, I could not, but I didn’t see the salary listed initially or else I wouldn’t have applied)
      – is it in a location I can get to via public transit?
      – what’s management like? (I’ve been burned before)
      – would I be doing the same thing every day?

      I was unemployed for about four months and I am lucky that it was only for that long. I tried hard not to cave on what I was looking for, no matter how much I wanted a job. I turned down a few jobs post-interview because they weren’t what I was looking for, and I also got a lot of rejections….

      1. rrr*

        Omg you actually totally answered my question below!! (I’m considering going from library work to admin work) I’m so glad you like what you do! Do you miss libraries?

    17. Geeyourhairsmellsterrific*

      For #4, do you mean geographical location? If no, then commute would be #6 for me and it’s a major factor.

    18. Office Plant Queen*

      1, 6 (generous PTO), 3, 5, 4, 2

      For people, I don’t really care much a lot making friends, but I want to be able to get my work done, and I enjoy a good collaboration.

      As for benefits, time off is my #1 priority. I have to travel in order to see my family, so I need more time than other people. Plus I’m more prone to burnout (thanks, ADHD).

      Generally liking my work is essential for me to be able to succeed at my job. If I don’t like my work, it’s very difficult to actually do it, then I spend all day trying to work and not getting things done, which is demoralizing and exhausting.

      Location and a short week are great things to have and I do care about them, but I would be willing to accept a slightly longer commute/more hours in exchange for the things above.

      Above average pay? I don’t really care as long as I’m not drastically underpaid. I’m financially comfortable, so I can afford to sacrifice salary if I need to.

    19. Prorata*

      3, 2, 4, 5, 1

      Interesting, well paying work is critical.

      Work environment….. I’ve worked everywhere from a nice private office with a door (current), to loud cube farms, to manufacturing environments where I had to strip the copier weekly to clean dust out and had to take care to avoid rats getting into my snack supply. Give me reliable power and data, no roof leaks, and ok AC, and I can make do with the rest.

      35-hour week in my field is mythical. 45 hours on-site, and more at home on professional reading, etc. is typical.

      X-Factor – good information systems, especially the Accounting Information Systems.

    21. Still*

      3 work I enjoy; 6 great manager; 1 colleagues; 2 salary; 5 short hours; 4 environment

      Unless 4 refers to commute in which case 3 6 1 4 2 5

    22. Blue Pen*

      I guess my x-factor (#6) would be a strong benefits package (good PTO, health insurance, etc.). With that in mind:

      5, 6, 3, 2*, 1, 4.

      *I don’t necessarily need to be paid higher-than-average, but I do want to be compensated fairly (and well) for my work. If that’s the question, then I think #2 moves up the rankings to the first or second slot.

    23. rrr*

      It’s amazing how much the answer to this has shifted for me in the last few years. Where I’m currently at, I’m going to go with 5, 1, 2, 4, 3. I’m working really hard to try and decouple my sense of meaning and fulfillment from my work – I’d rather work to live, and be able to spend time finding meaning and enjoyment outside of work! It’s a weird/hard exercise if you’ve spent your life hearing that you should find a meaningful career, but as long as my work isn’t actively harmful or aggressively boring, I’m OK with that.

      1. EngGirl*

        Yeah, I’ve always really valued my time and it’s always been kind of the opposite of a lot of my peers who are all about “grinding”. I few years ago I had some friends ask what my side hustle was and I was like… I have a full time job that pays my bills, why would I want a side hustle?

    25. Hawk at a Library*

      3; 1 and 4 are equal; 6 (good PTO and sick leave), 2 (has caveats), 5 (I’m at 20 hours and it’s all I can do due to disability).

      I’ve found that I must be interested and enjoy the work to work well, but it’s also intrinsically tied to 1 and 4.

      For 2: I am currently paid above the average pay grade for my position in my region and actually nationwide (what I’m making part time is equal or above what a lot of people in my state make full time). The problem is that I’m now boxed in for my field (library paraprofessional) and region (DC Metro) and if I want to get a job elsewhere, I will have to take a pay cut or get a higher degree that realistically won’t ever pay much more than I’m making now, and if I move to another location, it will most likely still be a pay cut. So it’s great until it’s not.

    26. LivesinaShoe*

      Not ranking these, but reflecting. I’m “late career” aged, but early in this particular career and I wanted to say that there are jobs out there that hit everything out of the park. I love the location of my work, I’m well-paid, my work is interesting and allows me to grow intellectually and professionally, I think highly of my colleagues and management, I never have overtime, great work-life balance and good perks.

      So although it may take time to find positions like this, they do exist and you can (I hope!) find them. Good to think about this early so you can focus your attention on fields that provide these factors.

      1. Anna Crusis*

        You have what I want, and it’s comforting to hear that it’s possible as a fellow “late career aged” person who is trying to change careers.

        I liked my last job/career, which wasn’t necessarily interesting all the time, but it had interesting moments often enough to sustain me. The pay and benefits were decent, but what really made it a good job was working with kind, interesting people whose skills and interests meshed with mine and we learned a lot from each other and could make the less interesting parts of our work more enjoyable working together. Unfortunately, getting back to this is not viable for me, for various reasons.

        Currently in a role that is rarely interesting and the pay is low. While I get along with my coworkers, they are not particularly kind or interesting or a joy to work with. The best part of this job is my commute, so it’s not all bad (sob).

    27. Schmitt*

      4 – I won’t go back to non-remote unless there is no other choice, so that has to be first. It’s better for my health.
      1 – My current coworkers and the culture are amazing, I would take that over being slightly bored, but:
      3 – I have to enjoy the work that I’m doing,
      2 – even if it pays a little less
      5 – and while I initially ranked a 35 hr week first, I could actually have this, if I was willing to accept the pay cut, so I downranked it.

      I am making plenty of money and am about 20 years in.

    28. ecnaseener*

      5, 3, 2, 1, 4.

      But working from home, 2 directly affects 4 — higher salary means I can move into a nicer place.

    29. Jan Levinson Gould*

      Fun poll! Here’s my ranking:

      4 – Factoring in location / commute. I am currently remote, but not opposed to hybrid (although opportunities in my industry located in the region of the country where I live are limited to non-existent). I like where I live and would prefer not to relocate unless absolutely necessary. Couldn’t pay me enough to work someplace that would require a grueling commute to a place I would never want to live. Already been there, done that commuting from the suburbs into Manhattan. That made me miserable – I preferred having a heavy travel schedule to that commute – at least I earned travel points.
      6 – X factor of a good boss and senior leadership
      2
      5 – I’ve never had that in my career, but the older I get, the better that sounds
      1 & 3 – Tied

    30. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      I’m retired, but looking at that list, I realize how lucky I was – fantastic coworkers, many of whom are still friends years later, mostly fun work that was always interesting, a beautiful building across the street from the city’s best park and only a few miles from my house, and a 35 hour work week. The salary at the time was pretty good, so I think I can consider everything on that list a tie for first place. Either I was lucky or I have very low standards!

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I’m pretty lucky too. I have awesome coworkers and most are good at their jobs and the couple who aren’t…I don’t work that closely with. I have work I love. Technically, my hours are 22 hours a week, but you know…those are just the hours I spend in front of a class. I’d say about 35 is probably the average number of hours I do a week, though there are probably some weeks when it’s 25 or less and others when it’s 45 or more. And as a “professional,” I have an above average wage.

    31. Mad Harry Crewe*

      1, 6 (vacation!), 3, 5, 2, 4

      I don’t want to work hours and hours of overtime, but it’s more important to me that I get long weekends and 2 vacations of 1-2 weeks a year, versus exactly how many hours per day.

      I want interesting work that gets results and that I’m good at – it doesn’t have to be something I’d spend time doing if I wasn’t paid for it, but it needs to be something I don’t hate spending my time on, and that’s engaging.

      I really need to respect the people I work with, and know they respect me and my skills. I don’t have to be super buddy-buddy with everyone, but I want to work with competent people who are good at what they do, and who know I’m good at what I do.

      I won’t work in an unsafe environment, but other than that I think I can be pretty flexible. I don’t want to work for bad pay but I would not trade extra money for bad colleagues, bad work, bad hours, or bad vacation.

    32. Katrine Fonsmark*

      4,5,1,3,2 – I feel like a weirdo! I don’t think anyone else answered that way.

    33. anonymous anteater*

      what an interesting prompt!
      1 and 3 are the main priorities. 6 would be a good organizational culture. In a publicly funded career, I’ve never had above average pay, lower than 40 hours per week, or offices that have free snacks or aren’t government-beige, but that doesn’t really impact me.

    34. HSE Compliance*

      3, 1, 4, 2, 5 for me. 6 would be (for me) work that has an impact – there’s a lot of work that I enjoy doing, but I also need to be able to make change and push improvements.

      Regional director level – I would call myself mid/senior.

      1. BikeWalkBarb*

        We’re similarly motivated. My X factor is doing work that gives a sense of purpose and that lets me lead positive change that will stick. This goes beyond #3, “work I genuinely enjoy doing.” I’ve worked in different fields and positions and know that I enjoy lots of things, not all of which will make a difference. I need to know that I’m doing something to save the world because it needs saving on any number of fronts.

        My other X is flexibility in structuring my days/weeks, which I mostly have. Plenty of standing or required meetings but around those as long as I get my work done I can take a walk break when I need it, make up for going to a dental appointment by doing the work another time so I’m not using sick leave, take vacation mostly when I want to instead of having to work specific days.

        Earlier in my career I would have had another X, which would have been opportunities for advancement. I’m happy where I am (director level, not a lot of steps below the top in a large public agency), mildly interested in a higher position if I could still lead change.

        I get to shout BINGO because I have all of what I want in these categories now, with a tweak to the weekly hours thing.

        X/6.) Having a sense of purpose and leading change

        X/6 #2.) Flexibility and autonomy in structuring my days and weeks. To the extent I can have that at my organizational level that puts many required meetings on my calendar, I have it.

        4.) A job located in your ideal environment: I have that now. I telework 100% unless I want to go into a (very large and very empty) HQ. I live in a great neighborhood in a bikeable walkable town with multiple parks and a really good bakery within walking distance and easy bike or transit access to everything I need. I’d never trade this for a job that involved driving or a long commute.

        3.) Work that you genuinely enjoy doing: Yep, and it uses many of my favorite skills acquired during a winding and serendipitous career path.

        1.) Good coworkers that you like and do their jobs well: I have this now, with the bonus that I’ve gotten to lead a lot of growth and we’ve recruited an all-star team.

        2.) A higher than average salary: I’m compensated well enough and am not motivated enough by money to give up the other things.

        5.) A 35 hour work week with no need for overtime: I don’t need this as long as I have the flexibility and autonomy. I genuinely love what I do. Some days or weeks are longer, some shorter, and I like that. It’s most important to me to be able to decide what kind of time the work takes and to be able to take a break or a longer walk at lunch if that’s what I need for my brain to work.

    35. Pizza Rat*

      3,1,4,6,5,2

      This assumes the salary pays enough that I can save/invest and also occasionally have an indulgence like a serious vacation.

      6 is management that has my back.

    36. DEJ*

      As far as 3, there’s also a scale between ‘work you genuinely enjoy doing’ and ‘work that I’m good at and don’t hate.’

    37. My Useless Two Cents*

      1, 4, 3, 2, 5, 6

      One of my first jobs, I had a manager that said to me “I better like you, I spend more time with you than I do my kids!” That has always stuck with me. Basically, I need to like my co-workers because I do spend the majority of my time awake in their company and that makes a ton of difference in my mental health. Life is too short to put up with shi**y co-workers.

      Yes, I have had jobs where I didn’t like a coworker, or the coworker wasn’t doing their job. But overall, I really like and enjoy my co-workers.

    38. anotherfan*

      312456, which, looking at the other responses, puts me square in the middle of the pack. I’ve worked ridiculous hours for paltry pay, but I wouldn’t do anything else because I love what I do and I work with great people and that compensates for a lot.

    39. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      My ranking:
      6.) x-factor: I’m treated with respect, trust, flexibility.
      1.) Good coworkers that you like and do their jobs well
      3.) Work that you genuinely enjoy doing
      4.) A job located in your ideal environment (this moves up the scale depending on how “environment” is defined; some elements are dealbreakers, others don’t bother me at all.)
      5.) A 35 hour work week with no need for overtime
      2.) A higher than average salary

    40. Mireya*

      Not ranking, just commenting.

      1. Good coworkers. If some coworkers are bad at their jobs, it doesn’t bother me if I don’t have to deal with them.

      2. Higher than average salary. Ok now that I’m in the final stretch toward retirement.

      3. Work I enjoy doing. When I took my current job, I was ready to simplify my work life by going from BigOutfit to SmallerOutfit.

      4. Job located in ideal environment. PreviousJob was at the head office of a big firm that also had a branch office in our city. Recruiters often contacted me on LinkedIn about jobs in branch office’s area, which I wasn’t interested in commuting to.

      If my last job search had lasted longer, I would’ve told branch office-area prospects I wanted to be closer to the office in case I needed to go in unexpectedly. (Home Internet outage, for example)

      5. 35 hr workweek/no OT. Be honest about expectations, and then I’ll decide if I can live with them.

    42. adk*

      I’m 47, married, no children. I was unemployed for 4 years before the start of covid through the worst of covid. I now work a job where I can theoretically work from home once a week. My coworkers in the office area amazing, those who work from home 5 days a week are a mixed bag.
      I’m having trouble ranking. I think environment would be high because I’d love to work from home much more often (or from my parents’s home or from a laptop on a beach), but my awesome co-workers make that part less important. I like my job just fine, but don’t necessarily “really enjoy” it. I work 40 hours a week with no need for overtime, though I get paid well for one scheduled day per week being on call. Salary is not important to me; I would definitely not work more just to make more money.

      4-5-1-2-3

    43. Scholarly Publisher*

      My current job has all these except 2. (Well, and technically 5 because it’s a 40-hour week.) The 6 is schedule flexibility and great PTO.

      If I sought another job, I’d be looking for 2, 1, 6 (flexibility and PTO), 5, 3, 4. I would like to make enough money to rise out of the low income bracket for my city.

    44. Hroethvitnir*

      For me I think 1, 3, 5, 4, 2. Presuming the alternative to “higher than average salary is average, and I have never pursued well paying work – though I really need a permanent contract *and* livable wage one of these days (I’ve had one or the other – not USA).

      People are probably the biggest factor for me. I can enjoy a variety of jobs, so while job satisfaction is important, it doesn’t need to be my favourite for me to be happy. The 35 hour work week (that still pays enough to be a living wage) is hard to comment on given yeah, that would be nice, but it’s just not an option I see as being in reach for many people at all any time soon.

    46. kalli*

      6 – Accessibility. I need a job that I can actually do with my disability. They are rare. The last time I got one it was withdrawn because I ended up in hospital and they did not want to wait for me to get out. I also need flexibility because I have to see doctors at least once a fortnight and they don’t usually work outside business hours, and sometimes I have to take longer breaks and make up the time.

      3 – It’s not even always ‘enjoy’, just it has to be interesting enough for me to focus on it, and I have to understand why it’s being done. ‘We have to bill these as this is where the money for our electricity comes from’ is sufficient for that.

      4 – Accessibility again, but also WFH and not like, up 50 flights of stairs with no lift, not too bright, not too hot, nobody’s listening to top 40 radio, nobody’s playing with my teddy on my desk etc.

      1 – I don’t have to like them. They need to be able to tell me what they need me to do and preferably not be patronising or assume I don’t know things because I’m just an admin and/or because of my disability. The partner emailed me about a typo the other day and instead of ‘oh there was a typo, pay more attention in future’ it was a two page screed on how billing works, an explicit assumption I did not understand how billing works (my job has been billing for nearly four years now!), complete with pictures and an order to review all of my billing (as I’m now billing for my own work and not just other people’s who don’t have time to do their own) – I wrote back that it was a typo and I was very sorry for my first typo in 45 months and did not point out his typo in telling me 5 x 10 is 30. I often get requests to file documents that have so much explanation of how to file documents that it would have been faster for them to file it themselves. Just forward me the email from whoever told you to file them and has all the information in it! My job is also to file documents, I have the flowchart I wrote!

      2 – My income is supported so it honestly doesn’t matter how much I earn, I don’t get more money, so unless it’s a lifelong can’t-be-fired unicorn job that pays enough to make up for what I’d lose by moving from my pension, would contribute enough for a decent retirement, and would still be part-time, accessible, flexible and everything else, it just has to be less than the threshold for losing my pension and concession medical care.

      5 – I can do a 4-day work week if I put up with the pain, but 5 is impossible, so. Regular hours generally, sure, but 35/38/40FT work week? nope. I can’t walk straight after half that.

    47. Wolf*

      3, 5, 6*, 1, 4, 2

      *6 for me is a decent PTO package.

      I’m a librarian so I have basically ceded the right to a high salary LOL.

      But I also have diagnosed depression, which is managed very well right now, but experience has taught me that I would rather run away and live in a van down by the river than put in 40 hours a week at a job I don’t care about. I worked at an insurance company for a few years and it was 100% Dumb Shit That Does Not Benefit People or Society. We spent a lot of staff time trying to make our informational meetings “fun” so people would retain updates that could have been an email. I don’t know why we as a society have decided this is more important than, like, updating our infrastructure and educating our children.

    48. Miracle*

      I have a pension and great benefits. They are golden handcuffs and still worth it.

      With the cost of living being so high, I can’t believe that salary isn’t a higher priority for people.

      I don’t mind working a lot of hours if I love what I am doing, which I do.

    49. Lemon Chiffon*

      4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 6.

      Environment and set hours (and a schedule I like) are very important to me. I wish I made more money, and I certainly wouldn’t like to make less, but I don’t want to make more at the cost of not having any time to enjoy it or having to work with people who are unreliable. I would also rather be meh about my work than deeply passionate with a ton of other dysfunction.

    50. Banana Pyjamas*

      Money-Health-Money-Preferences

      Money

      6-How much of my paycheck is just paying for me to have a job? At my last job 50% of my paycheck went to childcare and commuting. The only reason I didn’t pay for parking is because I was willing to walk 10 minutes. It makes it very hard for me to want to go back. Right now I’m considering applying for breakfast service at a local hotel because even though I’d work less than 20 hours per week, I’d make the same as working full time since I’d be getting home before my husband goes to work.

      Health

      1-IME people make or break the environment. Horrible people eventually affect my mental health (often sooner than I realize) which eventually affects my physical health.

      5-Twice in my career I’ve had 30 hour weeks, for limited periods. Without kids, it was nice, but with kids it was truly life changing. Health and energy galore. Pregnancy is also much easier working 30 hours than working 40.

      Money

      2-I mean Capitalism. Also, see 6 above. Additionally, if i could get a job in the top of my realistic range, my husband could stay home with the kids. We’d need to relocate though.

      Preferences

      3 & 4 are equal for me.

      3-I need variety and do very poorly mentally if I’m pigeonholed.

      4-I still miss the physical environment of toxic office because it was just THAT lovely. My desk looked out at a rooftop garden that overlooked the forest preserve. It was just gorgeous. I also loved having access to the forest preserve and walking on lunch.

    51. allathian*

      6. Flexibility and autonomy. As a fairly senior SME, I need to know that managers (and coworkers) trust me to do my job without constant oversight.

      5. 35 hours might be unrealistic, but my workweek is 36 hours 15 minutes, and I very rarely work more than 40 hours.

      4. My ideal work environment is hybrid, with 2-4 in-office days per month. I work better in a calm environment, but I missed my coworkers during the Covid lockdown.

      1. Good coworkers. I don’t need to be friends with my coworkers, but I enjoy a collegial atmosphere with professionals who are all working towards the same goal. I hate managers who pit their employees against each other. That’s partly why I didn’t go into sales or finance as a college student. I’m not a particularly competitive person.

      2./3. I work to live rather than live to work. What I do for a living doesn’t really define me as a person. Sure, I’d like to earn more than I currently do, but I can afford all the necessities and some of the luxuries of life, and I wouldn’t want to make the sacrifices necessary to earn more than I do. I work for the government and could undoubtedly earn more in the private sector, but I prefer working for the common good rather than contributing to the wealth of some rich guy.

    52. Audiophile*

      Hmm… this is a tough one. I would probably rank in the following order: 2, 1, 3, 4, 5, 6. I’m at a point where I really care about my salary, and a higher salary can make up for many things, though not everything. My ideal environment now is remote or hybrid. I took a pay cut to be remote full-time and to get out of a role with no growth potential. Honestly, I’m not sure I have ever had a job I loved. I’ve loved aspects of my previous jobs but have not loved the job itself. As I get older, I realize this is rarely talked about openly, and many friends have shared similar sentiments. It’s something that truly fascinates me.

  4. Guest*

    Thankfully, this isn’t an issue at my workplace because most of us use “hippy-dippy” laundry products that have little or no scent, but are the heavily fragranced detergents and fabric softeners that have become so popular included in office fragrance bans? The kind that are touted as leaving a “fresh” (read: huge amounts of chemicals) scent on your clothes for weeks. I’m asking because I went to a museum last week and ended up with a horrible headache and sore throat from being bombarded with laundry fragrances I could smell from 30 feet away. Even if I didn’t have a chronic respiratory disease, the odor would have been A Lot. At work, it would make it hard for several of us to function due to asthma and other issues. I’d love to know others’ thoughts on this.

    1. Enougj*

      If they aren’t they should be. Anything that is strong enough to be smelled from a normal distance (3 to 5) shouldn’t be used let alone something you can smell from 30 feet in a larger space then someone’s office.

    2. Sled Dog Mama*

      I worked in a place that explicitly included laundry fragrance in the policy so I’m inclined to say yes.
      I also struggle with scents in public places, have you found any good solution or tricks for dealing with the scents or the ensuing headaches?

      2. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        I still keep high-filtration masks on hand to reduce my exposure to communicable diseases.
        The kind I use were originally intended for protection from urban air pollution and wildfire smoke before Covid gave them additional use.
        They work great for reducing (but not eliminating, unfortunately) exposure to strong scents as well.

    3. Abigail*

      Unscented laundry products are expensive. If the employer is willing to provide a laundry stipend to employees, or provide the accepted detergent, that is fine with me.

      There is only so much I will spend out of pocket on this, though.

      1. canuckian*

        Just did a quick check on walmart.com (US) and while I only looked at two brands, Tide and Purex, for those, both their regular detergent and their “free and clear” options were exactly the same price for the same size bottles (I went by number of loads of laundry), so it doesn’t actually cost more for unscented (and both of those were for “sensitive skin” as well). And if someone needs “special” detergent, they’re probably already using something without a lot of scent to it. No one needs scented detergent.

        So, no stipend needed.

        1. Ripley*

          I’ve always bought unscented laundry soap, and I just buy whatever’s on sale. All the major brands have unscented versions. I’ve even found unscented No Name brand.

        2. Beka Cooper*

          We use the Tide free & clear and it’s been good, but the price/cost discussion reminded me: We tried switching to the Costco brand of “free and clear” detergent, and I ended up getting a huge, full-body, insanely itchy rash from it and needed multiple doctor’s appointments, steroids (pills and topical), and a skin sample taken. It was diagnosed as “pityriasis rosea,” which can be viral, but sources online also noted that the condition can be from allergens. It was horrible, so, so itchy that I was taking Tyelonol and Ibuprofen to dim the pain, and I read that pityriasis rosea can be improved by being in the sun and gave it some sun exposure, only to end up with tiny blisters over the entirety of the rash on my arms.

          I was never quite sure if the detergent was the culprit until we ran out of Tide about six months later, and I figured it couldn’t hurt to wash some non-clothing items with it until I could go shopping. The rash returned on my arm after I used a blanket, so now I know for sure it’s Costco detergent’s fault! I found a ton of Amazon reviews from people with similar issues. Yes, different people are allergic to different things, as a redditor pointed out on a post about it, but since it’s supposed to be a product friendly to sensitive skin, I just thought I’d share my story in case anyone is thinking of saving a few bucks on “free and clear” detergent at Costco. Maybe test a sample before doing a whole load of laundry!

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            Tide is my go-to when I get my all- natural unscented brand.

            I had a very bad experience that means at least my underwear is always washed with unscented detergent.

            1. DJ Abbott*

              I had similar problems when I was young. I used the name-brand free and clear for a long time, until I found more natural alternatives.
              I’ve been ordering natural detergent from online health food stores for a long time.

          2. Tris Prior*

            Had a similar experience with the heavily perfumed “free and clear” detergent from Aldi.

          3. Polaris*

            As a kid, we tested out new laundry detergents in the following manner:

            Wash ONE load of my clothing.
            Said load stays IN the basket and is worn straight out of the basket (folded, but still)
            Wait for the inevitable rash from hell.
            If rash? Buy the known good detergent and rewash the remainder of the basket.
            If no rash? Yay, there’s an additional good detergent, maybe. Run second load, repeat process to verify.

            Having skin that freaks the EFF out over everything…is really frustrating.

        3. Rainy*

          Tide is not for all sensitive skin. No, not even Tide “free and clear”, which still has scent. This is the case for all laundry products–the stuff that those products are “free and clear” of is not always the stuff people are allergic to.

      2. nonprofit director*

        Hmmm, I use Trader Joe’s Free and Clear, which is $5.99 for 50 ounces. The bottle lasts forever. I’ve been using this detergent brand for years. Trader Joe’s also has lavender-scented detergent, which is $10.99 for 100 ounces, a very minor price difference likely due to the fact that it is a bigger bottle.

      3. Ellis Bell*

        It doesn’t have to be strictly unscented, or expensive. Guest is talking about heavily scented laundry-perfume (usually found in unnecessary extra laundry faff products like softener) which intends to fix perfume into the fibres for weeks. My partner is scent sensitive and we don’t spend a lot of money on laundry products at all. Other people’s lightly scented laundry that doesn’t stay scented is also doable because he isn’t there when they’re doing their laundry. It’s the products that leave a slick of long lasting perfume over everything that will pull him into a migraine in under 15

    4. Higher Ed Admin*

      I think it would be a hard argument that your employer can regulate what type of laundry detergent you use at home. (I say this as someone who also uses and prefers unscented laundry detergent.) Falls into the same basket as telling you what shampoo, conditioner, deodorant you can and can’t use, it seems like.

      1. Jay (no, the other one)*

        They can tell you that something is too scented and ask you to change it. I’ve done it for both perfume/cologne and what turned out to be laundry detergent. If it makes me sick it can’t be in my work environment.

        1. NotSoFast*

          And if I use products because if my skin conditions they’re not getting changed. This is not a cut and dried situation.

          1. Learn ALL the things?*

            In which case, HR would need to sort out accommodations that work for both people as well as possible. If I have asthma that’s triggered by scented products and you have a medical condition that means the only version of a product you can use is scented, then HR gets to work out how to make things work for both of us. It might mean we don’t attend meetings together, or we split our in-office time across different days so we don’t come into contact very often, or our workstations are on opposite sides of the office, or something else that means you can use the products that work for you and I don’t have an asthma attack in the workplace.

            1. NotSoFast*

              Yes, of course, but in my experience this is not the expectation of the person who asks for a scent free workplace. All I was saying was you don’t automatically get a scent free environment by fiat.

      2. canuckian*

        Twice I’ve had allergic (ie lips swelling) reactions to people wearing strongly scented deodorant. You can be sure I went to my manager and asked her to get them to stop wearing those products. And they did. (One of them, in a meeting in a small, enclosed room with a guy who was wearing Axe. *gag*).

        So yes, you can be asked to change a product.

        1. chemipedia*

          I worked in a place that banned ALL scents because it could interfere with our testing results. One of the managers would walk into the room and it would immediately be filled with nauseatingly strong scent. When the manager was confronted about wearing scents, he insisted he was wearing all unscented products. It was so frustrating, and I don’t even know what HR could do in that situation.

      3. Ripley*

        I work in a cancer clinic. Your employer can definitely tell you not to wear any scents, regardless of where the scent comes from.

      4. Rex Libris*

        They can’t, but they can regulate overpowering scents in the workplace, which may amount to the same thing for whoever it is that the Ultra Tropical Mango Floral Rush with Scent Enhancers stuff is marketed to.

      5. RagingADHD*

        They don’t have to regulate what detergent you use. They can simply tell you that you can’t come into work smelling of fragrances, period. Just like they can tell you that you have to wear close-toed shoes, or that you can’t have visible tattoos.

        How you adhere to the policy is your own business.

    5. Warrior Princess Xena*

      IMO office scent bans should be based on strength of scent, not product. If you can be smelled 30 feet away, then whatever you’re using is not office approved, be is perfume or laundry detergent.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        This is where I land, too. And if you require the strongly scented version for some reason (in the case of laundry detergent, it’s not just “scented” and “unscented” but also the new “extra strong scent”) then it’s a case of dueling accommodations, and something like not having the fragrance-requiring and fragrance-averse people sitting next to each other might be necessary.

      3. Anax*

        Agreed, although I suspect any products which leave strongly-scented or allergenic residue on communal surfaces might need special handling. I’m imagining someone putting on a bunch of hand lotion and then touching everything…

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      Generic announcement: Tide 3 pods do not have what I can only guess is a fourth scent pod on Tide 4, which promptly triggers my asthma.

    7. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’ve not worked anywhere that would ban employees from using any products at home. It would have been regarded by employees as an unacceptable intrusion by the employer into our lives outside work. It would have been fiercely opposed by nearly all employees, supported by their union. I’ve only worked in Europe in engineering though and not in healthcare, which I expect would have different rules.

      It might have been OK to ban the use – on work premises where the sensitive employee is – of perfume, body spray, candles, essential oils etc
      However, I expect if anyone had been that sensitive, then it’s more likely they would have been given an accommodation that didn’t affect coworkers, such as wfh, a private office with HEPA filter, moving to another floor or building etc.

      The overriding principle here is that accommodations should be made and paid for by the employer, not the coworkers.

      btw, I worked 40 years and no coworker ever mentioned being made ill by fragrances; sure disliking the WMD Axe, but not being made ill by it. Maybe if sensitivities becomes more common here too, then attitudes about home products would change.

    8. PotatoRock*

      Can they be included? sure. But I think a lot of reasonable workplaces land on the side of : asking people not to “put on” a scented product that is intended to be smelled is reasonable; asking people to change their general home & personal products is not. They still need to work out reasonable accommodations for you though!

    9. Abigail*

      I think one thing missing from the scent discussion is how much other people have to change. Individual products like body wash, perfume, and deodorant is relatively easy to change.

      Laundry detergent is different because that is a communal product. I wash my clothes with the rest of my family. It isn’t as easy to swap a product that impacts everybody else.

      I do not want the mental energy of separating my clothes and using different detergent than my family. Laundry is annoying enough on its own.

      If I had a co-worker with a scent allergy I would be willing to change individual products. I would be resistant to changing products that throw off the routine of my entire household.

      1. Harrowhark*

        In my household, I threw out the heavily-scented laundry detergent and replaced it with scent-free.

        Mind you, I’m the one with the scent allergy, so it was hard for the other household members to complain.

        FWIW, swapping out scented for unscented didn’t change anyone’s laundry routine.

    10. Harrowhark*

      I wish all of those fragrances would be banned.

      I have had to walk things straight from my front door out to my back porch because the delivery person and/or their car was doused in so much Febreze that the scent leached into my packages.

      Also, Febreze doesn’t “get rid of” odors, it just tries to out-stink them. Cigarette smoke residue is bad; cigarette smoke residue + Febreze is gag-inducing.

      1. Scentless Saturday*

        Totally concur! That substance is also on upholstery in public spaces and contaminates/exposes people too.

    11. DJ Abbott*

      A few years ago, I bought a really great dress at a thrift store. It had a lingering scent that I assume was from one of these laundry products. I washed it twice, but the scent remained. I had to have it dry cleaned to remove the scent. Luckily it didn’t make me sick.
      I have always lived in apartments with a shared laundry room, and don’t use machines where people have had these products because I’m afraid it will irritate my skin. I’m lucky it doesn’t affect my respiratory enough to notice, because there are times when the laundry room reeks of these products.
      I also feel annoyed and concerned that so many people are unaware of what these products can do to their health. There are times when I feel like there’s no use fighting, people are just gonna keep being stupid.

  5. Night Blooming Cereus*

    Last week I posted with a bit of a whinge about my manager trying to drive my program tasks and said that in 6-8 weeks, things would change and it would no longer be an issue. Thanks for all the support, and here’s an update:

    The change that’s coming is more like 3months out!
    Serenity now!!!!

      1. just here for the scripts*

        Or set up a recurring Dr appt/sick time since mental health is still health—getting a therapist to help you focus on de-stressing techniques should help.

        1. Night Blooming Cereus*

          I think I will be working on my assertive communication techniques, lol.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      How confident are you that the change is definitely coming in 3 months? Because that’s right on the cusp of “I can put my head down and grind for a few months if the long-term payoff is important” and “… okay, now this is my life and I hate it.”

      1. Night Blooming Cereus*

        It’s being planned as definite, but as always, anything can happen. I am surging ahead as though nothing will change while being prepared to pivot if things happen the way they are planned to.

  6. Go Grant Lightning*

    I wrote in some weeks ago to celebrate how I re-wrote an entire grant in 3 hours the day it was due after a hard pivot on topic. I have returned to say that my org was awarded the grant!

  7. waiting*

    I applied for a staff job at a large private university and made it to the final round. I was told that the hiring manager would choose the top candidate this past Monday and tell HR, who would be responsible for following up. It’s now Friday and I’ve heard nothing.

    Should I assume I’m not getting an offer? Or is it normal for things to move this slowly in higher ed? I don’t think I’ve ever waited more than a week for an offer following a final round interview.

    1. Princess Peach*

      It’s normal, especially in the summer when people are out of the office. The hiring manager may be waiting for their boss to sign off, or for a reference to get back to them, or the HR person may be out of the office. I would not assume you’re out of the running just yet.

      1. waiting*

        They don’t have my references, so that can’t be the issue, but I can see your other points. I just wish someone would let me know either way so I can move on.

        1. Samwise*

          It’s higher ed. No one will let you know. If you’ve sent a thank you email, assume you will hear when you hear. Which sadly might be never.

      2. Spacewoman Spiff*

        Second this! HR moves so slow in higher ed. I’ve been hired into a large private university twice, and both times the offer came over a month after the final interview. You really can’t read anything into the pace of hiring–though I’m going to cross my fingers you aren’t waiting for too long!

        1. waiting*

          omg, a month?! that sounds like torture! I will try to lower my expectations. The hiring manager said they wanted someone to start in August, but admitted that they can’t control the timeline — it’s all on HR.

          1. Rex Libris*

            My spouse once got a job offer in higher ed six months after the interview, and five months after they had already started a position at another university. Apparently they had “scheduling conflicts among the hiring committee.” I know that’s an extreme case, but universities never move quickly, on anything, in my experience.

          2. Anne of Green Gables*

            I will also point out that this time of year is a hiring tsunami in higher ed. Our process are usually fairly slow across the board (though it has gotten significantly better in the last two years) but things in June-July-August are the slowest, just due to the sheer volume.

        2. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Yup, I have been in my large private university job only a couple of months. The hiring process took exactly a month from the initial screening HR call to the HR call telling me they wanted to hire me. Then it took another three or four weeks for me to actually start. I’m not sure, but I think the U has specific HR new employee training only every two weeks so that’s why the start date was so late, but also the week before I started was graduation and I’m sure they don’t start anyone that week regardless.

          Either way, the final acceptance call came quite a few days later than they said it would. As AAM mentions very frequently, hiring timelines are on the schedule of the place doing the hiring and always seem much slower to the applicant than they should be. Or maybe time slows down a lot when you’re looking for a new job. (I certainly have experienced that slowdown myself.) AAM’s recommendation is to always behave as if you didn’t get the job, try to not think about it, and keep looking, then be pleasantly surprised if they do offer it to you. Easier said than done, I know, but hopefully you can keep busy this weekend and not think about it too much, especially since they obviously won’t call you over the weekend.

    2. Random Academic Cog*

      Don’t assume until you hear something. If they have an e-application system, the system should show you when the position is either filled or closed out (or you have a new task because you’ve been selected).

      I just finalized a hire that was in the works for MONTHS. Very frustrating and nothing I could do about any of it.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      I once went to an interview where the hiring manager told me I could expect to hear a decision in 2 weeks. The HR person I talked to at the end of the interview told me I could expect to hear a decision in 4 weeks. I heard back after 6 weeks. This was early in my career, and now I take all “we will get back to you by [date]” statements with a giant heaping of salt. Hiring (almost) always takes longer than then the people involved think it will.

      I see you mentioned wanting to move on in your follow-up comment. You can assume you did not get the job and go do whatever you would do if you heard that news directly from the university. If the university does offer you the job, it’ll be a pleasant surprise and you won’t feel like you’ve put your life on hold for them in the meantime.

    4. Metadata Janktress*

      Higher ed is slooooooooooow. I once put in an application in May, got called in July, didn’t get hired fully until end of September. This was a clerical job. It’s not time to give up at all!

      3. Zephy*

        Also higher-ed staff. Applied in October, interviewed in May, started in July over here.

    5. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Higher ed moves slower than molasses. They always think they will do stuff in a week and it is closer to a month.

    6. Tammy 2*

      A friend in higher ed whose colleague recently left said to me this week, “They already posted the job! They’re moving really fast–we might even hire someone by the end of the year.”

      However slow you think the higher ed process is, assume it’s three times slower.

    7. Mimmy*

      As a general comment to you and others in this thread: I really wish employers wouldn’t be so quick to promise a timeline. Yes, we have been taught by AAM to take a given timeline with a grain of salt, but I would feel better if, when asked about the next steps at the end of an interview, the hiring manager would give the ideal timeline. If they know the process is notoriously slow, say that! Something like, “We would like to make our selection in the next week and have the person start next month. However, the process may take a little longer than that, so if you don’t hear anything in 2 weeks, please feel free to email me”.

      I know the world doesn’t work that way, but that’s just my honest opinion :)

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I always build in some buffer time to *every* time promise I get, whether it’s from a potential job, a medical test result, or expecting to meet a friend for lunch. So many people are idealistic about their schedules and I’ve learned over the years that a lot of people don’t realistically think about how much they can accomplish in a certain time. No shade on them because scheduling truly is very difficult, but that way when I hear from someone sooner than they say or I expect, then I’m very pleasantly surprised.

    8. colorguard*

      I’m not in higher ed, but for my first job at my current company, I heard “10 more days” several times between the date they said they would let candidates know and when they did six weeks after the original date. I was sure I was the No. 2 and they were waiting to make sure their top choice accepted before cutting me loose, but it turned out to be internal delays, including an unexpected departure of a decision maker. I did a lot of angsting for no reason. Especially in the summer, it can be tough to get everybody who needs to sign off lined up.

    9. ecnaseener*

      In addition to what everyone else has said, keep in mind that you could be the second choice candidate and the first choice could end up turning it down. So the timeline really doesn’t tell you anything about whether to expect an offer.

      1. waiting*

        This was my first thought, actually — maybe I’m the runner-up and they won’t officially reject me until the first choice has signed the offer. Not a comforting thought, but possible.

    10. BetsCounts*

      Waiting, hiring **always** takes longer than you think it would, and adding summer where people are more likely to be out on vacations, and then higher ed where people are even **more** likely to be out of the office, do not consider yourself out of the running just yet. Good luck!!

    11. FollowUp*

      this is normal, but it would be totally fine to send a very polite and short email asking about it (“I totally understand delays happen, but since you told me I’d hear by Monday I thought I’d check it as I’m very interested in the position” or similar).

      The key is to not do this the instant their deadline passes. It’s totally fine with a grace period.

    12. JS*

      Higher ed takes forever and their HR is not always very quick- also things sometimes get stuck in red tape and get delayed.

    13. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      Slow administrative processes are totally normal in higher ed.
      All the administrative processes, not only hiring.
      Also normal: you’re given an estimated timeline, and you allow margin for error, but the actual timeline ends up being completely different. Usually longer.

    14. Aphrodite*

      I’ve been working in higher ed for twenty years. It’s worse now than it ever was but it was never good. In our adult ed division, hiring will (not “can”) take months. HR is surly about being asked about it too. And this is what we, the fellow staff members, deal with. What a crappy department they are.

  8. Sled Dog Mama*

    My boss has a habit of forgetting things, not sure if that’s actually relevant here but adding for context. Sometimes it’s things like I emailed to confirm I could take certain days off before entering them in our system (we’re a team of 3 and coverage is required so this is our normal procedure). Recently it’s been more along the lines of (when covering for me) “I’ve completely forgotten how to do this relatively simple process and can’t understand the instructions you left”
    Professional development/continuing education days are part of our compensation, we all have a certification that requires a certain number of continuing education credits each year. In April I emailed asking if I could use my professional development time to attend a specific conference that will be in a city close to me in October (I and another colleague work at client sites so we are remote to HQ). I could get my CE credits and I had been asked to give a presentation on user experience by a vendor that my site works with closely. I was asking well in advance as I know my boss was going to be attending several conferences for our company to present on a software (in a completely different section of the industry) that we are the county rep for and might be attending this conference as well. When I asked, I was told that there were no plans to present at this conference, I was a little surprised by this but that’s not my area, so I took it at face value.
    This week I emailed just to confirm that boss would be able to cover for me while at the conference and if I took a day or two off after. He responded that he was unsure as he may now have to attend the conference to present our software. He advised me that he would suggest I look into attending virtually to get my CE credits. He also said that he didn’t know when he’d be able to give me a firm answer. I understand business needs can change and I shouldn’t be put out by the fact that ours have, but I am a little. I’m a little more upset about the suggestion to attend virtually especially since it was presented as “I find it much better to attend virtually because I’m able to attend all the sessions I want without distractions.” (To be clear in-person attendance includes virtual access to almost all sessions, so it is possible to attend all the sessions you are interested in.) I find it extremely difficult to concentrate on a video for the 1-2 hours that these sessions usually are. More importantly though I find it really difficult to disengage from the client site and watch a video while I’m there and I don’t have a home office that I could use to watch without interruption outside business hours. I’m struggling with how to go back to my boss and say that virtual attendance really won’t work for me because I won’t be getting the concentrated interruption free time that CE days afford, not to mention I miss out on the networking and vendors that are only available in person. I also think I’m going to have trouble explaining this to my boss as he doesn’t work on-site full time unless he is covering. I also know that my site finds him less helpful in certain things than they find me, and they know that he sometimes struggles with and takes longer on tasks than I do consequently they try to schedule a lower workload when they know he’s going to be there so he may have the impression that my workload is lighter than it actually is.
    How do I go back to my boss with this?

    TLDR: I asked to attend a conference months ago and am now being told I might not be able to due to business needs and should just attend virtually. Virtual attendance really won’t work for me, but I don’t know how to tell my boss that.

    1. WellRed*

      Does he know you were asked to present, which assumes your in person attendance. I also don’t understand how you can be on a client site but not working for the client? Remind him of the presentation, express your desire to network, that it’s close to you and that you don’t think you’ll get any value from attending virtually.

      1. Sled Dog Mama*

        Regarding being on a client site and not working: I’m engaged to wait onsite for a portion of the day. Our contract allows me to do continuing education activities such as webinars, videos and reading journal articles during that time.

    2. theletter*

      Maybe try saying that while virtual presentations may work well for him, you find much more value in attending sessions in person. Mention that you’d planned on this previously, was asked to speak, and planned to meet face to face with vendors. And that CE DAYS are part of your compensation, and should be treated more as ‘working out of the office/office retreat’ kind of thing.

      but if I were in your shoes, I’d start searching for a new job. Your manager sounds horribly disorganized.

      1. My Useless Two Cents*

        1) I agree in responding that virtual does not work well for you for various reasons.
        2) I’d also bring up that you have already paid (if there is a difference in in-person/virtual), planned networking which can’t be done virtually, and were asked to speak as you were already given the go-ahead months ago.
        3) Stop double checking time-off with boss. He already agreed to you having those days out of the office. Move ahead with that approval unless BOSS brings it up and asks for you to change your plans. If he forgets, that is on him. What you are doing now may seem easier but it just adds stress and rewards boss for being a bad manager. Business needs change but it should be a RARE occasion that things change so drastically that you can’t even go to a conference for your required CE certification.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      Is there any reason you didn’t respond to “I find it much better to attend virtually because I’m able to attend all the sessions I want without distractions.” with “Oh actually, it’s the reverse for me, especially without a home office; I actually really doubt it would work”. He’s only suggesting something because from his perspective it would work, but you need to share your own. At this point I’d say “I really considered your point about attending virtually, and I don’t think I’d be able to watch it anywhere that was free of interruptions and I struggle to concentrate on videos even if I had a home office. I would also miss out on the networking and vendors that are only available in person. I appreciate business needs might trump this, but I wanted to raise it.”

  9. audiology-adjacent*

    I have a question on behalf of an audiologist in my life. She’s an AuD and has 10+ years clinical experience. She’s interested in moving to a job where she can sit down more for medical reasons. What sorts of jobs are there out there, what job titles and areas should she be looking for? She’s very interested in cochlear implants and hearing aides and would be interested in a research position if feasible. She doesn’t have a PhD nor time to go get one.

    She’s fine with in-person desk jobs as well as remote jobs.

    Her current place also has terrible benefits, but she thinks that’s standard for the field. Is that just the clinical side, or her specific clinic?

    1. Policy Wonk*

      Has she considered looking into work with the regulatory body or government agency that provides oversight for her field? They are usually desk jobs and the government usually offers good benefits.

      1. audiology-adjacent*

        Do you know what kind of jobs there are that require a clinical background but don’t require anything else, such as a masters in healthcare?

    2. DTC*

      Re: job titles: I work at a medical research institution and former clinicians tend to be hired under the “Specialist” series. The other non-MD non-PhD researcher job title series I’ve seen are “Staff Research Associate” and “Clinical Research Coordinator”, but everyone I’ve met with those titles has been very junior and I don’t know if there are versions of those jobs for people with more experience.

    3. ToS*

      She might look into federal military contractors, universities, veteran services/veteran adjacent work, as well as gerontology/aging services for these areas.

      For benefits, if she works with a small employer, or is employed as contingent staff (contractually), benefits tend to suffer.

  10. Ashley Armbruster*

    One of my biggest pet peeves at work is when 1 person messes up, the manager will email the whole team saying, “we need to”, “why did we“, instead of talking to the person directly. This has happened a few times at a few places I’ve worked. The person who frequently messes up or doesn’t do something correct is typically someone who’s “big personality” is loved by management, and the managers I’ve seen do this (both men and women), are jerks, spineless and bullies (to others, not to the big personality employees who are allowed to mess up).

    For example, the process is to mark all updates for project vulcan in the task management board. Fergus won’t do it, but the rest of the team will. Instead of talking to Fergus, the manager will email everyone with, “how are we documenting our changes? can we make sure everything is getting put in the task management board?”. Or another one is when something goes wrong because Fergus simply wasn’t doing what he was supposed to, but everyone else on the team is correctly implementing tasks. The manager will again email everyone with, “I’m seeing errors with X, Y, Z. What’s our plan with checking these?”.

    What can you do in this case when you’re one of the ones doing things correctly? Should you just not say anything when this manager asks and wait for Fergus to say something? Or should you say, “I’m already doing A, B, C”. Maybe it’s because I’ve worked in awful places, but I don’t like being lumped in when someone else messes up. Especially because these managers don’t show me the same courtesy, meaning they aren’t afraid to bring up my mistakes to me alone. I also feel like the use of “we” comes off condescending and in this case it’s confusing because I still feel like I need to answer.

    It sucks and it’s not going to change but I’m not sure how to best handle it.

    1. Balanceofthemis*

      Is your manager aware that Fergus is the problem? If they aren’t, that could be why the at using “we”, because they don’t know where the issue is. Unfortunately, I don’t know if pointing out that you are doing it correctly will help. Some managers just don’t like to have hard conversations.

      1. Ashley Armbruster*

        The “we” thing is a quirk of his in general. He says it for everything, and with everyone. He’s 100% someone who will not have hard conversations.

        1. sparkle emoji*

          If it’s to the group and it wouldn’t be super weird in your workplace, I think that’d be reasonable when you know it’s not about you. If he’s directly emailing you even if it’s not about you that’s stranger and you might need to respond in a way that just conveys “understood”.

          1. sparkle emoji*

            *conveys “understood” without extra fluff, if he’s someone that needs that.

        2. Tio*

          This is very YMMV. Have people been responding so far? What do they say?

          You could potentially get your coworkers together and all coordinate to email back and say “Yes, I am already doing that”, or if he is emailing about specific items, can someone respond back and say “Huh, I looked it up and those items all appear to be assigned to Fergus. Fergus, can you advise?” But you’d want to have a general temperature on how well that would go over with the boss.

    3. Choggy*

      Been there, had a horrible coworker for 10 years, before they were finally terminated, who would always cause the “Everyone needs to make sure to do a/b/c, etc.” email when they were the only one not following procedure. I just deleted the emails from the manager because I knew they were not referring to me. You could always go to the manager directly and ask them if they have a problem with your work in particular, and if so, to reach out to you directly. These types of blanket statement emails are not helpful to anyone, and only cause morale issues.

    4. Random Academic Cog*

      They probably aren’t afraid to bring up things with you privately because you respond well (i.e., professionally) to such discussions. You all know what’s happening, so I would choose to ignore these messages as long as you’re sure you aren’t having a problem in that area.

      Does this approach ever actually work on Fergus? If so, it’s probably a winning strategy for this manager and unlikely to change.

      If it doesn’t work on Fergus at all, you might want to do what you can to make Fergus’ continued noncompliance/incompetence your boss’ problem. Refer every question related to work done by Fergus improperly to your boss. Don’t spend time figuring things out or trying to fix it. If you know Fergus did whatever and it’s causing a problem for you, just ask your boss to clarify. Eventually they’ll realize that their cowardice has consequences for them and do something (or not). But it won’t be your problem to own anymore.

      And if it’s not causing you personally a problem, just ignore all of it.

      1. Ashley Armbruster*

        Yeah, I can try that. I honestly get really triggered when it happens, due to toxic places that I worked in, which I know have skewed my perception. I get triggered because I don’t want it to appear like I’m messing up when I’m not. And I feel the need to explain myself and say, “see, I’m doing it correctly!!”

        So while this manager sucks and is a jerk in general, much of this is on me based on some terrible experiences I’ve had in past jobs. I’d love ideas on how to shift this mentality.

        1. JS*

          Maybe just tell yourself, “This is not directed at me,” and move on. I get it. I am similar in wanting to be a people-pleaser and not have anyone think I am doing anything wrong, but I have learned to just let some things go.

        2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

          As a manager who has from time to time done the “we” thing and the memo for everyone but really just 1-2 people, know that it’s truly not personal (at least from me, your boss sounds like they could be better at the job).

          I typically assume that the people who were doing it right all along can recognize that this stuff isn’t directed at them and ignore/go on with their day. But often a reminder about a mistake that can crop up from time to time is something that I feel everyone can benefit from, even if it is one specific person who made the mistake that got me writing the reminder in the first place. In a case like that it would be weirder NOT to send to the whole team, even if some of them have never made the mistake before, because it’s just a sort of “hey everyone, I’ve seen a couple of blips on a recent file so just a reminder that we use Software Y to tabulate instead of that old method we pivoted away from.” Even if your colleagues are making you nuts, they may not deserve a scolding, just a reminder without a ton of heat behind it.

          Sometimes a typo on an email to an important client is just a typo, but offers a moment for all of us to say “oh yeah, I will remember to give an extra read to communications before sending.” If you’re the employee who already reads every email six times before sending, it’s definitely not aimed at you. And that’s okay!

          Obviously I am only speaking for myself and not your boss; I just hope some of that perspective helps to depersonalize it a little for you.

    5. Kiki Is The Most*

      I’ve had this! The “we need to…” reminders always gave me a jolt of anxiety and after a few months of getting these, I went to my boss (hopefully that is an option for you?) with an honest approach”
      “Hey…I was wondering if the system wasn’t recording that I was updating/completing the vulcan files? Oh, I am? Great! I really take the deadlines seriously but I do panic when I receive your reminder emails. Is our whole team behind? No? Ah, would it be possible to just send those emails to the people that need them? I’d really appreciate it as it would drop my stress level way down. Thanks!”

    6. TX_Trucker*

      I’m a manager who sends out “we” emails. If it’s a big problem I will address it with the specific individual. But if it’s an infrequent situation or small problem, I use the “we” language because other folks may not be aware of the rule or requirement.

      I suggest you delete the emails if they don’t apply to you and just move on.

      1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

        It sounds like it’s consistently a problem that only applies to one person, though. That doesn’t sound like a good use of we.

        I agree with your advice about deleting and moving on.

        1. Tio*

          Yeah, if everyone is doing it except one person, and that person is doing things like it semi frequently, we language is not good. It’s avoidance. That’s for maybe the first couple times it happens and it’s one person, tops. Third time means it’s a pattern conversation.

        2. Reebee*

          But TX_Trucker did write, “If it’s a big problem I will address it with the specific individual.” Therefore, “we” not used in that case.

    7. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      You probably wouldn’t know if they do have a private word with Fergus about his mistakes, so maybe assume they are. They won’t tell you if he’s on a PIP, or has an accommodation either. Don’t respond publicly that you already are doing the tasks. Usually management does this because they fear being accused of singling out any one employee. Another thought is “What’s our plan with checking these?” might equal you are all responsible for managing Fergus because they don’t know what else to do.

    8. Hyaline*

      I think it really depends on whether the manager is using the “we” language to intentionally soften the “I know it was Fergus” implication or if the manager truly is clueless about who is doing what. If it’s “we should all remember to file our reports [unspoken but everyone knows I’m reminding you because Fergus didn’t]” I would just let it go. It’s not my preferred way of communicating, and it feels passive aggressive and weird when you could just talk to Fergus, but it’s also not my job as an employee to nitpick the manager on how to communicate (and she might have her reasons–like Fergus screwed up this time, but last month Mary did, and you know what, let’s remind everyone).

      If you feel the manager truly doesn’t know who’s flucking up and is just casting blame on everyone, especially if you feel it could actually affect your prospects or how you’re treated on the job, it’s probably worth raising it (maybe in regular check ins if you have them, or responding privately to emails about major screw ups with “I wanted to check in–I submitted my Clown Makeup Audit last week, but after your email I felt I should double check that it was complete.”)

    9. Rex Libris*

      Sometimes it’s because they’re conflict averse and don’t want to talk to somebody one-on-one. Often though, it’s simply because they think if one person didn’t realize they were doing something wrong, maybe others don’t either, or they’ve identified a problem, but don’t know exactly where in the process things are going off.

      It’s sometimes hard to track every detail of each person’s random individual tasks, so it’s easier to just say “Hey, if you’re working on X, don’t forget that Y happens before Z.” and go on with life. We usually assume that those who aren’t doing the thing are aware they aren’t doing the thing, and will just ignore it.

      1. Mireya*

        Our team leader kept asking my boss and me about a fumble that in any event, was on another team member’s plate. I got the feeling Leader was trying to confirm the details before discussing it with Other Team Member. Asking OTM from the start might have caused embarrassment along the way.

    11. Ellis Bell*

      Ah, yes the classic group scolding which sails over the heads of the lackadaisical and which irk the hearts of the conscientious. I tend to reply as though I’ve seriously taken it to heart, and can’t imagine when I would have done such a basic error. Something like: “I was certain I was documenting our changes correctly? These are my copies of the edits to the task management board. Can you let me know where I need to do things differently?” Then the reply tends to be something like “Obviously we don’t mean you as you have the most careful record on documenting changes.” To which I reply “Great, thanks; I hoped so, but I wasn’t sure.” It’s extra fun in a teaching environment when the same person who tells you not to indulge in group punishment or group scoldings for students (obviously), but then goes and does a group scolding with their staff.

    12. Harrowhark*

      Gah. I had a manager who would do this. Except he would pull the whole team into a conference room to ream us out for the mistakes of one or two people.

      I stopped him after the 3rd or 4th impromptu team meeting and asked if he had included me because I was making X mistake. He looked at me like I had three heads and said No. Then he told me — and I will never forget this — to “stop standing in front of bullets that aren’t aimed at you.”

      Dude, you’re the one who lined me up with everyone else in front of the firing squad, how the hell am I supposed to know the “bullet” wasn’t aimed at me???

      I told him that I wouldn’t be attending any more impromptu “Yell at everyone for one person’s mistake” meetings and that if he had an issue with my work, he should let me know. Solo.

  11. taco flavored kisses*

    Advice for a man hoping to take parental leave within a year of starting a new job? My husband is job searching due to impending layoffs, and we just found out we’re expecting. He will have been at the new job for less than a year when the baby arrives and thus ineligible for FMLA, and it seems many employers exclude employees of less than a year from their paid parental leave policies. I know the advice for a woman in this situation is to wait until the negotiation stage and then ask the employer to grant an exception to provide paid maternity leave, since at that point withdrawing the offer would be clear discrimination. But are there any legal protections for a man? (Located in Georgia, so I doubt there are any state level protections.)

    1. Rosyglasses*

      You are correct – Georgia does not have any state specific laws. If I were him, I would bring it up in interviews to ask if the company provides any paid sick leave or parental leave as part of his questions about employer sponsored benefits. He doesn’t need to imply that you are expecting or that he would need to take the leave – it should be asked in the same vein of what benefits the company offers.

    2. Meep*

      Honestly, men are typically rewarded more heavily (i.e. paid more) for having children while women are often punished so I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Especially in a rather conservative (i.e. old-fashioned) state like Georgia. If any thing, it is actually a good thing to bring up in interviews since employers for some weird reason love to give bonuses to men on the number of kids. (All that “men are providers” nonsense.)

      Have him ask about paternity leave and what exceptions can be made, and if any cannot, focus on the PTO/sick-leave package and seeing if he can get those hours upfront if it is not normally allotted up front.

      2. Reebee*

        That doesn’t seem helpful. I mean, the LW and husband are to rest on a statistical norm; therefore, don’t worry too much? Huh?

        @LW: I think Rosyglasses above presents helpful, practical, applicable advice.

    3. Jan Levinson Gould*

      First off, love the name – I get the reference and LOL’d!

      My employer allows for hires with less than a year at the company to use paid parental benefits regardless of the parent’s gender or even in the case of adoption. If a mother were with the company for less than a year, she would not qualify for 6 – 8 weeks of paid short-term disability which overlaps with FMLA. But an additional 8 weeks of leave are offered to all new parents regardless of tenure. It was very complex to figure out with my employer.

    4. Anon4thisq*

      I would wait until the offer stage but understand he might not get any since he didn’t work there for year. My husband had worked somewhere 8 months when we had our first. They gave him 2 weeks. Everyone (any parental leave) that had been there a year got 6 months paid. It stunk but that was their policy and it did depend on when the child was born so he couldn’t tell them at say 4 months to hit that 12 month mark.

      I would also look at larger organizations where parental leave is acknowledged and appreciated. Your husband can do some research but it might be more difficult in Georgia. Good luck!

  12. A Nonny Mouse*

    I have been a people manager for over a decade and, unfortunately, I need to let one of my team members go. They haven’t been reaching their goals and I’ve been the only person standing between them and the abyss – my boss wanted to fire them for months. They eventually burned the last bridge with me and I started the process to let them go. My problem is that now I feel horribly guilty. The conversation is set to take place in a few weeks, everyone is behind me, and I’ve done all of my homework. They clearly smell a rat, though, and have been doing everything they can to be a model employee. I like this employee a lot and even though I’m in the right as a manager, I feel like a heel as a human. Does anyone have any advice for me?

    1. HonorBox*

      I hate this for you, because it sucks to let someone go. That said, you have all of your ducks in a row. You’ve been defending them for awhile, which is a kindness you’ve showed, and they’re still not performing. It isn’t a referendum on them as a person…just on their ability to do the job. Keep reminding yourself that.

      I do also feel for you that you have to wait as long as you do because it doesn’t help you, the business or the employee.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Take solace in the fact that because you feel terrible about this means that you are actually a good, decent human being.

      Take solace in the fact that in doing what you could to turn them around, they didn’t, and you are letting them go means that you are actually a good manager.

      Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

    3. Mrs. Peach*

      You’re say they’re doing all they can to be a model employee, but is it enough? Are they capable of reaching goals? And do you anticipate they would continue to do so? If the answer is no or probably not, you’re right to move forward. And even if the answer is yes, they have been underperforming for months and I’m assuming you’ve made a good faith effort to help them correct it but they haven’t. I’m sorry – this really is an uncomfortable position to be in.

      1. A Nonny Mouse*

        Unfortunately, this isn’t the first time and it never lasts. I feel guilty because I wonder if I could have done more.

        1. MsM*

          If this is a pattern, then you’ve done all you can; they just don’t have or are unwilling to apply follow-through. I know it sucks, but maybe this is what they need to either fix that once and for all or find a role where it’s not going to be a recurring issue.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          You can’t care more than they do, essentially.

          You’ve been a very understanding boss, you’ve tried everything reasonable. It sounds like you’ve cut them so much slack they could open a Trousers R Us. But the reason they’re doing the “model employee” thing now is because it’s worked in the past–they’ve demonstrated they’ll backslide as soon as this “blows over.”

    4. EngGirl*

      Oof, I’ve been there.

      The best advice I can give is to be kind to yourself and to figure out what you’re going to say when you let them go. I had to rehearse for a couple of days because I didn’t want to do it. Try to find some positive or at least neutral things you can say to them, because this conversation is going to suck either way.

      When I did it what I wanted to say was “I’ve given you so many chances and stuck up for you so many times, but I’m at the end of my ability to do that because you’re not showing even the slightest hint of improvement and you haven’t been taking this situation seriously for months.” What I actually said was “Unfortunately you’re not maintaining the standard that we need you to at this time, and I don’t think we’re the best match for you.”

    5. Susan Calvin*

      First of all, being fired isn’t the abyss – I get where you’re coming from, but you’re not saving them from a firing squad, you’re doing what’s right for your team. And maybe even what’s best for the problem employee; by resolving this now you’re allowing them to move on with their dignity and professional network intact, hopefully to an opportunity that fits them better.

      The one time I was tangentially involved in such a situation, HR pretty much blocked or dragged their heels on any formal action, so the situation festered for years, and by the time that employee left on their own, everyone on that team hated their guts (which did nothing for their further career prospects within our industry).

      2. SansaStark*

        I was trying to figure out how to say this and you did it much more eloquently than I could. One of the best things that ever happened to me was getting fired from a job where I wasn’t meeting expectations. I hated being bad at a job but I couldn’t afford to quit without something else lined up. Losing that job set me on a path for much higher career success than I could have imagined at the time. It’s possible that the employee might take this as a sign to reevaluate and course-correct. Of course that’s nothing you can predict or have any control over, but you’re not dooming them to a terrible life. You have to do what’s right for your team.

        1. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

          Same thing for me. The job and company was a horrible fit. There wouldn’t have been any manager in the world that could have helped me excel at it. After that it took me a long time to find the right job because I never wanted to be in that position again. It’s been several years since then, but I’m in a great job and probably out earn my old boss.

          The onus is obviously on the employee to do the work, but I don’t think it’s uncommon for people who are fired to later do well elsewhere.

      3. Lily Rowan*

        Very well said. I was involved in letting someone go who I personally liked a lot, but who was just a terrible fit for the position. We thought they could grow into it, but no. I ran into them a couple of years later and they were in a position they were much better suited to and seemed great!

    6. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I don’t have advice as a manager, but as someone who periodically does hospice for cats (ie, I decide when the cat dies): You’re allowing your emotions to cloud your decisions, and it’s making everything worse.

      Emotions pretty much always get in the way of important decisions. Sometimes the only person you hurt is yourself. Sometimes you hurt everyone around you because you feel bad. Yes, it sucks to be in the position that you’re in, but letting the situation linger never helps, and does hurt.

      The business world gets a bad rep because of heartless decisions. And yes, it’s possible to take it too far. There’s plenty of examples out there of companies who have. There needs to be a balance, and right now you’ve swung too far to the emotional side.

      It’s just business, it’s not personal is a thing because its true. You’re not firing this person because you hate them. You’re doing it because they can’t do the job. Big difference there.

    7. Bruce*

      Why is it taking so long? This seems like a drawn out process when the decision has been made

    8. Marlo*

      The only advice I have is that if it’s within your control, you should definitely let them now and not wait three weeks. Is there an HR or other reason why you would wait? That’s not helping anyone including you

    9. Medium Sized Manager*

      I recently fired somebody that I really like as a person – they were severely below their targets despite me spending a lot of time and energy trying to help them improve. Luckily in my company, firing somebody takes a looot of documentation, and that helps me frame it – I am not making a willy nilly decision. I am making a clear choice based on a repeated pattern of behavior.

      My biggest advice is to try to remind yourself of that. I wrote out every single thing I did to help this person over the span of just a few months and it was monstrous.

      I also try to remember that it wouldn’t be fair to the other team members to let somebody skate by just because I feel bad.

      Good luck!

    10. Unkempt Flatware*

      The best thing you can tell yourself is that this is the kindest thing you can do for this person. They cannot grow in a role they can’t succeed in. I’m sure they’re unhappy. This feeling won’t last.

      1. MJ*

        Alison has mentioned in the past the value of being kind over being nice.

        Letting go an underperforming employee is kind. It releases them from a job that doesn’t suit their skills to hopefully find something that’s a better fit. It also means the employee’s self-worth doesn’t take a constant beating from not being good enough.
        And it means the rest of the team don’t have to carry someone who isn’t pulling their own weight.

        Being “nice” means keeping this person on staff, meaning more time is invested in them and taking development time away from other team members. This is a good way to lose the high performers. And in the long run, this isn’t “kind” to anyone – the employee, their team members, or you.

    11. Csethiro Ceredin*

      Echoing everyone else here in saying it shows that you’re a decent person in feeling badly, even if it’s clearly the right decision.

      Many people stay too long in jobs they are not suited for, and will struggle on forever unless someone makes the decision for them. We can hope they find something that is genuinely a better fit as a result.

      My best advice is this: when I know I have to fire someone I make plans to meet a friend for dinner that night after work. I have to make the plans in advance because after the Fatal Meeting I will NOT feel like going, but so far 100% of the time it’s helped me shake it off faster and better.

    12. Hyaline*

      I would try not to frame this personally even though I know that’s hard–for example, you use the phrasing “burned their last bridge with me.” Well–no, that’s not why they’re being fired…they’re being fired because they can’t do the work, right? So frame it that way! You’ve done everything you can to give them appropriate support and they’re not able to get it together. They’re not right for the role, and you’re a good manager for recognizing that, giving them a chance to grow, and, yes, for letting them go when you realize they’re not going to be able to do the work.

      Look at it from another angle–yes, you may feel “like a heel” for firing this person, but would keeping him on be fair to the rest of the team? I imagine that they’re put in crummy position of picking up his slack, correcting his mistakes, that kind of thing, and you’re doing right by THEM by making the choice to remove a problem employee. You actually would be a heel to ignore the problem and make them deal with it!

      1. GythaOgden*

        I’d imagine that that also means their attitude hasn’t been the best. I’ve seen the consequences for someone who was relatively good at their job but was an asshole to work with, and yeah, it really can come down to a point where the attitude makes the difference between being kept on and being fired. (And being fired in the UK workplace is hard enough, but this was a contractor whose probation had been extended a couple of times and they still couldn’t keep their mouth shut. In fact, looking at our various policies about this kind of thing in our handbook and other similar organisations’ as part of a departmental push to get HR procedures moving a bit quicker, things like attitude problems, behaviour and insubordination are more likely to be the cause of being canned here. You have to give performance issues a long benefit of the doubt and we’ve saved someone who’s a lovely person but not capable of the job she was doing by moving her into a role that’s a much better fit for her outgoing personality. But if someone is an asshole to work with, they’re going to be hitting the disciplinary levels fairly consistently and end up being fired. Certainly the guy who made a racist remark just before Christmas and the guy who stalked one of my colleagues and sent her nasty and inappropriate text messages were both out on their ears very quickly. They weren’t immune from firing just because they were ostensibly good at their jobs.)

        Ultimately, it’s not just about the work. Demeanour goes a long way in how much you’re prepared to work with someone, and I can see how OP might try hard to invest time into someone but feel it was in vain because they just couldn’t control their own behaviour.

    13. WantonSeedStitch*

      Remind yourself that getting rid of problem employees is doing something GOOD for the rest of the team. You’re making it a better place for all of them to work.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        Came here to say this. Impact on the team is what kept me going through a very very messy process, including two PIPs, the first time I had to let an employee go (in my first year as a manager, no less).

        Think about how much of your time you spend managing this employee, fixing their mistakes, mending fences, whatever it is. Then think about other team members you want to help reach their goals, or have more time with, or generally be a better boss toward. I knew intellectually that I was short-changing my higher performers, but it didn’t really become clear how much we needed to let “Bob” go until he was gone. It ended up being a turning point for a work group that is now one of the highest performing and well liked at the company.

        Try to reframe guilt about the staffer into seeing it as a move that is really positive for everyone else. Your team will appreciate you for doing what needs to be done, in the end.

    14. Tio*

      I’m going to address the management side since I agree with everyone else has confirmed – and I agree – you’ve done the best you can as a person. Some people can’t/don’t want to be helped.

      For the actual firing, you need to practice keeping yourself projecting calm and even emotion. The person you’re firing may have a lot of big emotions. Maybe not, some know it’s coming and take it with grace, but plenty of people do even when they know. If they’re having big emotions, keeping yourself calm will help keep them calm.

      Make a little “how did we get here” roadmap for yourself, so if they pull the “how did this happen/I had no idea” response, you can quickly and cleanly lay out how you did get here. Have a couple strategies or phrases ready to pull out if they dig in and want to argue about things, like “We discussed this before, and haven’t seen a change, so we’ve come to this conclusion and it’s final” or “There was a deadline on this and it wasn’t met” kind of things.

      Make sure you know what the plan is for after the firing – when is IT disabling her access, she has twenty minutes to clean out the desk, when are you sending out notice and to whom (not just the team but if they have clients or other departments the interact with). You can have draft emails written beforehand and just send them out when you’re done. And the 20 min timer doesn’t have to be explicitly stated, but you should have a general idea of how long you are willing to let them linger and when you would step up and say “Ok, I’ll need you to head out now.” Side story: My boss and I once fired someone in the morning, let her know we’d pay her for the day anyway. She then went to the kitchen area where there were some free breakfast items (donuts, muffins, etc) and stayed FOR AN HOUR. We had to go ask her to leave. But you should keep an eye on her after the firing, discreetly if you can, but make sure she doesn’t leave with paper or send out mass angry emails.

      Finally, I strongly suggest that you practice this conversation beforehand. You can do it with yourself in the shower, with a pet, with a friend or partner, etc, but it give you a bit of muscle memory of sorts that you can kind of fall back on if things start to feel fraught. I do it a lot, and it’s helped me get through a lot of conversations.

      Best of luck

    15. nonprofit director*

      I believe this has been mentioned, but I want to reiterate that if you have taken all the necessary steps to ensure the person has the resources to do the job and still cannot, then the best thing to do is to let them go. This is the kindest action for the rest of your team as well as the employee, who probably realizes they are not meeting expectations.

      One question I have for you: Why are you waiting for a few weeks to have this conversation? If the decision has been made and the employee senses it, why drag it out? That’s hard on everyone.

    16. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      The kindest thing is to let them know right now, but also give them as long a notice period as possible, so they have longer to job search while employed and paid.
      If you need to move them out earlier, then can you give “gardening leave” i.e. still paid but not coming in to work, so they can concentrate fulltime on their job search.

    17. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      A square peg in a round hole can have a great new career if they move to Square Company.

    18. theletter*

      think about it more in terms of fitness – they’ve never reached their goals, and now that they see the signs they’re trying their best to just be passable. You know what their capabilities are and it’s just not what the team needs or can use. Think of it as setting them free to pursue greater things.

    19. Rainy*

      It’s the pattern thing again, as so often in these cases. Okay, they’re doing everything they can to be a model employee right now, but how often have they shaped up briefly only to then slide back to being subpar? You’re not firing them as they sit right now, you’re firing the pattern.

    20. Sparkles McFadden*

      Keeping someone who is not doing the job well on staff affects *everyone else* every single day. Please think about those people. Coworkers have to pick up that person’s slack. They watch a coworker make a mess of things and still get chance after chance. It’s demoralizing. You owe those people consideration too. I wouldn’t be surprised if staff members have already moved on because of this person. How many AMA letters start out with “We have a totally incompetent person but the bosses keep giving her chance after chance”?

      Keeping someone who is not good at the job also means that someone who would do great work in the position will never be given the opportunity. You’re making everything about what you think is best for one person when it’s all part of a much bigger picture. Hopefully, the fired employee will find something that’s a better fit.

    22. BikeWalkBarb*

      Can you clarify why it’s going to be in a few weeks? Starting the process to let them go means what–HR paperwork? Have they been on a PIP and it’s set to run that long? If so and if you’re assuming the outcome is firing, the PIP isn’t being undertaken in good faith. Are you letting them go without going through a PIP or have you tried that several times and it doesn’t stick?

  13. Commander Shepard’s Favorite Store*

    Any accountants here? I’ve been contemplating a career change for a while now and it occurred to me recently that accounting might be right up my alley. I love numbers (not math, necessarily, though I don’t mind it), finances and budgeting, organization and structure, and puzzles. I suspect accounting might be a good fit but I don’t know anyone who’s in the field to pick their brain. So if you’re an accountant, I’d love to hear what you do all day and what you think of the career! Is it difficult to get into, especially right now when employment in general seems a bit weird? Do you enjoy it? Is a degree required (I don’t have one of any kind, and am iffy on the idea of getting one for various reasons, but unfortunately I’ve worked in a physical job all my life and have zero relevant experience), and if not, what’s a good alternative way to get the knowledge and a foot in the door? Someone I spoke to recommended looking into AAT courses, but they seem to be UK-based, and I’ve found I generally prefer in-person rather than online learning. If it helps, I’m not particularly interested in anything high-powered or Big Four related–just a steady paycheck at a job I don’t mind that’ll let me retire eventually.

    1. J*

      I’m not in the field, but my hunch is that in a lot of more formal “accounting” roles a degree might be required. My two cents would be to look into nonprofits–always in need of more numbers brains, and the entry point can be a lot more flexible, especially with some sort of volunteer treasurer experience.

      1. MsM*

        A lot of general office administration positions at small/mid-size nonprofits have at least some overlap with bookkeeping, so that’s one way to get your foot in the door. I agree you’ll probably need some level of formal training to advance, and you need to be okay with a broad range of “other duties as assigned,” but it’s an option.

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          Small local governments like townships can be the same way. A lot of times they just want someone who knows QuickBooks. In local government it can often segue into HR adjacent territory.

      2. Friday Hopeful*

        oh, also bookkeeping is a rapidly growing field right now. And there are shortages of accountants.

      1. Miette*

        Hard agree. IANAA but my sister is and we live together and I hear her b*tching about her job so often that I’ve gleaned a lot of detail. So from my perspective, here are some things to consider:

        First, you absolutely need to have the education to understand the concepts you will need to apply in the job. Sis had a co-worker whose undergrad was IT with a masters in accounting, and the advanced degree was not sufficient grounding in foundational concepts to do the entry-level job of a staff accountant–this person was ultimately a very bad fit and was let go.

        Second, you will also likely need to earn your CPA in order to advance in your career. It won’t be necessary to secure a job, but any kind of management position past team lead will have it as a job requirement.

        Third, you have the option of either working on the firm side or the client/corporate side, for the most part, and should realize there’s seasonality involved no matter what you choose. For the client side, if you work on people’s taxes, that season is obvious, but less obvious will be the quarterly filings that are also necessary; if you’re on the audit side, that regularly-scheduled process is also A Thing.

        On the corporate side, you should realize that, depending on how crappy the IT systems are in the company, closing the books each month can be a slog. Sis works for a large multi-national firm whose ERP is more of a whispered suggestion and the systems are held together with palm fronds and snot and every month it’s like 5 straight 10-12 hour days for her to fulfill her work, with even more at quarter-end. Don’t get me started about year-end, she’s a mess for like two weeks. Of course, this is only going to apply if you’re involved with closing transactional and/or the general ledger ends of the business, but it’s something to consider. Also worth considering is the fact that a lot of national holidays intersect with the timing for monthly/quarterly closes (e.g. Christmas, New Year’s, Labor Day, Memorial Day) all close enough to the end/beginning of a month that it can really suck to have to forego PTO because “it’s close”.

        On the plus side, there are always lots of accounting jobs and, depending on the industry, they pay pretty well, and if you’re really good at it you can eventually work on the consulting side. I think you are right in that you will be able to put your puzzle solving skills to work and it can be very comforting to lose yourself in figuring things out and, just, the math of it all. I do know Sis enjoys her work and she enjoys mentoring young members of staff, which is something she’s been asked to do because she’s so good at it. That’s all to say there are going to be things you find you love about the job regardless of the other BS you might have to put up with–as with any job. Just know what the BS could be going in! Good luck!

        1. Commander Shepard's Favorite Store*

          Thank you so much for sharing your sister’s experience! It’s exactly the kind of first-hand information I was hoping for. I especially appreciate the warning about dysfunctional IT systems and end of quarter jams, hah. I deal with absolutely nothing of the sort in my current job so it’s not something that would have even crossed my mind, but it certainly does not sound pleasant to deal with. I appreciate the forewarning.

          1. DJ Abbott*

            Sorry this is late, but I have to put in my two cents. I did support staff work for a long time, often in financial support with some bookkeeping. I did things like entering numbers in Excel, maintaining and analyzing financial data, and in one very small business assisted with bookkeeping.
            If you got a job like this, you could get started without having to get a degree right away. If you moved into something like being the bookkeeper or accountant for a small to medium size business, there might not be all these crunches making you work overtime.
            Now I work in a government financial office, where no one works overtime. Except our department manager who spends half her time socializing. We have an accountant who works the same hours as everyone else, and he’s been there more than 20 years. So a government job might also be good for having stable hours without a lot of overtime.

        2. Justme*

          Love the reference to the crappy IT systems being a problem when IT is generally the last to be consulted about the system that ACCOUNTING (very important group) will use LOL.

          1. Miette*

            Ironically, Sis would say the opposite has been true in her experience. She once worked as a project manager for a software implementation at a major health insurer, where her domain expertise as an accountant helped the rest of the team understand why certain processes needed to be done a certain way that the out-of-the-box software didn’t accommodate. They wouldn’t have spotted that if she wasn’t an accountant, and they almost didn’t include her (or someone like her–she’s a consultant these days) on the team.

          2. Miette*

            ALSO, hard agree. It’s so often someone at corporate or in another country or in effing PURCHASING that makes the ultimate decisions, as well as what features to implement, so when the thing rolls out and the reporting isn’t compatible with existing systems because no one wanted to shell out for the integration or when they realize, “Huh, yeah, I guess US sales taxes DO be pretty complicated sometimes,” and everyone just goes back to using effing Excel spreadsheets because at least they work, well, you see where this typically goes.

    3. Rosyglasses*

      You could potentially look into working for firms like H&R Block (if you are US based) or similar tax prep agencies that often will do their own training and don’t require a formal accounting degree. I’ve had friends share with me that tax prep can be pretty lucrative and steady.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I am a CPA, and an auditor.

      Accounting as a field is incredibly broad. And it’s short on people, so you’ve got pretty good chances to get a job. However, since it is such a broad field there are going to be variations in that.

      Bookkeeping, ie the basic grunt work of accounts payable, revenues, payroll, etc is the lowest level. An associates degree is generally the minimum level of education needed. Given your goals, I would recommend you look into community colleges or similar near you. Take all the accounting classes you can, do internships or get a part time job for experience. You have a network already – all those physical jobs you’ve worked. You can leverage that to get a job somewhere. It may not be a good job initially, but once you have some experience you can use that to get a better job. The school will likely have a career center which may or may not be helpful.

      In smaller companies, the accounting person is also often involved in general office work as well – reception, office mgmt, etc. Bigger companies you get more role definition.

      I’ll try to check back later to answer questions.

      1. Commander Shepard's Favorite Store*

        Thanks for weighing in! I do live very close to the local community college and have already requested information from them on their accounting degree–not sure if they have an associate’s or not, I’ll have to look again. I will say that my current boss seems to know almost everyone in this town (not a big place) and if I told him I wanted to switch careers, I would bet he’d be willing to put in a good word for me with some people, sad as he’d be to see me go.

        Thanks for pointing out how the roles might differ in small vs large companies. I’ve always worked for small businesses but I’m not terribly excited about the prospect of doing other office duties, so I’ll certainly keep that in mind.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          Personally, I like the variety of doing admin work. I get to use my analytical mind to figure out how to get things done, and that’s something not everyone can do. In my current position I get to do a little bit of financial work, which is also nice.
          After doing physical work, you might find miscellaneous office work a nice diversion.

    5. Susan Calvin*

      As a very first step, I’d suggest temping in whatever clerical jobs you can get. It’s a step closer in terms of relevant experience, and crucially, will tell you if you can survive sitting at a desk for 40 hours a week – it’s not for everyone!

    6. Cj*

      I don’t think you necessarily need a 4-year degree, depending on what branch of accounting you want to go into, but I think you probably need at least a two-year degree from a community college.

      That would probably allow you to get a job in payroll, or more of a bookkeeping position, not an accounting position at a CPA firm.

      I’m a CPA, and only older employees that had a lot of experience when they were hired don’t have a four-year degree. I think all new hires do have it four year degree.

    7. Friday Hopeful*

      You need a degree to be an accountant. However you don’t need a degree to be a bookkeeper and you might find that is more up your alley than doing taxes, etc. (I am a bookkeeper but would definitely not want to be an accountant).
      You can start by learning the most popular program, Quickbooks. You can do find the courses right on their website. Also, check out coursera.org where you can take a few basic bookkeeping/accounting courses to get a basic understanding of the principles of bookkeeping.

      1. Commander Shepard's Favorite Store*

        I’ve heard of Quickbooks but hadn’t thought to take a look at their website, thank you for the recommendation! I’ll definitely do that as well as check out what Coursera has available. I do like the idea of bookkeeping as well. I am perhaps overly obsessed with my own personal budget and finances and could see myself enjoying handling it for other people/companies as well.

    8. Ghostlight*

      Being an Accountant requires formal education and a bunch of exams (including the difficult CPA exam). I’m not sure about being part of an “accounting department” but the formal role is definitely something degree and exam based.

    9. Nonprofit finance*

      If you have zero relevant experience, and no degree (in accounting or finance or something similar) I think you are going to have a very hard time getting a job as an accountant. I have a liberal arts degree but have worked in nonprofit accounting for 20+ years. I was lucky to be hired as an entry level A/R clerk after college and have learned on the job. I also took a couple certificate type courses from a well-regarded university in my city. (Not online U of Phoenix type stuff.)

      Other than liking numbers and budgeting, do you know anything about accounting? Like GAAP or FASB standards? Do you want to do audit type accounting, taxes, nonprofit, etc.? I think you need to do some more research and try to narrow down what you’re most interested in and then try to take some intro courses.

    10. Leslie*

      All good advice. I too am a CPA and auditor (internal). While math is critical for this field, so is communication, both written and oral. Other essential qualities are problem solving and critical thinking. Knowing software, especially Excel, is essential. There is an accountant shortage, but a lot of that is due to salaries and the 150 hour credit for a CPA. If you don’t want to be a CPA, I recommend community college for accounting-specific classes. A good bookkeeper or accountant will make decent money. Good luck!

    11. Lifelong student*

      CPA here. I have often said that accounting is not about numbers- it is about logic- how things fit together and relate to each other. I too love puzzles- do at least two crosswords a day and have a 95% success rate in Wordle! I can do basic arithmatic but have no conception of things like calculus. Having said that, without a degree there are few if any openings in an accounting title- but there are possibilities at other levels, such as an accounting assistant, bookkeeper, etc. Accounting as such is a professional license with rather strict rules and barriers to entry. Tax prep can be done without an accounting degree- look into being an enrolled agent. I don’t know those licensing requirements.

      1. Commander Shepard's Favorite Store*

        Funny you mention crosswords, I’ve been absolutely obsessed with them lately! Your description of what accounting is about sounds very appealing to me (although I have to say that when I actually was in college a very long time ago, calculus was my favorite class). I wasn’t aware that tax prep has a lower barrier to entry; I’ll definitely check that out.

    12. Head sheep counter*

      You might look into Project Controls. Basically, you help layout and develop a project’s budget, schedule, resource needs and some level definition. It doesn’t necessarily require a degree but professional certifications such as PMI for a PMP related certificate or other professional organization is helpful.

      Basic skills: math, schedule software, excel skills (minimum pivot tables), ability to present/communicate, ability to learn area of project that you are supporting to the degree you can ask reasonable questions (hey you told me this was a 2 week activity but we are now 4 mo in, what’s the plan? or that sure sounds like we are hoping that 9 pregnant women get us a baby in a mo is that true?). Bonus skills: Risk management and specific scheduling software expertise (Primavera) as well as conversant in Earned Value Management Systems (EVMS).

    13. Career changer*

      Hard second on community college, the foundational courses are likely even in person because they’re required for a lot of different majors. Even if you don’t want to pursue any kind of degree or certification I strongly recommend at least financial, managerial and cost accounting classes to get an understanding of accounting as a system. If you’re not familiar with Excel and they offer continuing education classes in that, definitely a must.

      Even community college is expensive these days, but at least for me it has been an investment that really paid off. If you’ve never attended any college I guarantee you are eligible for at least some kind of financial aid or grant. Also, check your state CPA society for scholarships, they’re throwing money at the accountant shortage left and right.

      Since you have a background in operations, which is what physical labor is, you have a foot in the door on the accounting side of whatever industry you’ve been working in. In my case I found an accounting firm that worked exclusively with small businesses in my former industry, reached out for an informational interview, then went from intern to PT to FT.

      Don’t be intimidated, you don’t have to be a CPA to have a good career in accounting/bookeeping that pays the bills. Just take one step at a time and if you end up wanting to go all the way you can. Good luck!

      1. Commander Shepard's Favorite Store*

        Thanks for the information! I do have a community college very close by, though I’ve been to other colleges at various times in my life so I’m not sure if I’d qualify for much in the scholarship area. I wouldn’t have thought to look at my state’s CPA society but I definitely will now. And I would be willing to bet that there are a LOT of accounting firms that work with small biz in my current industry–maybe not in the town I actually live in, but I’m not averse to moving, so thank you for that recommendation!

    14. BetsCounts*

      I am also a CPA and an auditor at a public accounting firm and I **LOVE** it!! I love the variety of tasks and the variety of clients that I work with and I am always learning something new. There is definitely an accountant shortage (inside public accounting and also in industry), so even if you don’t want to get your CPA license, you can learn a decent amount of excel and quickbooks from youtube. Someone above mentioned taking accounting courses from your local community college- that is a great idea, and you can also check the extended studies program from colleges in your state for classes.
      Three other suggestions:
      1- even if you don’t want to pursue a CPA license (which currently does require a 4 year degree + another year of classes), your state CPA society might be a great resource, just to meet local accountants, etc. Just make sure you are getting in with the state CPA **society** not the state CPA **licensing board**. Like, for California, you would want to reach out to CalCPA, not the State Board of Accountancy.
      2- I heartily endorse Charles Hall’s CPA Hall Talk (cpahalltalk dot com). He is definitely more audit focused, but his most recent book is all about journal entries.
      3- Also great is the topics index of Accountingtools dot com. The site is more to support sales of continuing education and other training, but it is a great resource for background information.
      Good luck!!

    15. Former Retail Manager*

      Like you, I was a career changer and accounting is my second career. The hellish world of retail management was the first. I’m a tax auditor for a 3 letter Govt agency in the U.S. To be an accountant you need to have at least Bachelor’s in accounting. To become a CPA, you need 150 hours of education in most states, which is basically a Master’s degree, and then you have to study and pass all parts of the CPA exam. If you don’t want to go that route, I think you have a couple of options…1) Be a self-employed bookkeeper with perhaps some easy 1040/1120 tax prep work during tax season OR 2) Find an entry level bookkeeping/AR/AP job and work your way up over time, but be aware that you’ll likely eventually hit a ceiling without the education.

      Either route you choose, you need to complete at least a handful of basic accounting courses which can likely be done at your local community college including financial accounting, managerial accounting, basic income tax class, payroll taxes, and you should do whatever is necessary to be proficient in both Excel and Quickbooks if you’re going to work with/for a small business or small business clients.

      In my current position, I’ve had the opportunity to see how much small and mid-size business owners pay their internal bookkeepers and there is definitely a range from about $40k all the way up to $85k for an experienced bookkeeper who basically keeps the place running. I’m in a major metropolitan area in the Southern US for context. A good bookkeeper is worth their weight in gold for small and mid-size business owners.

      Best of luck to you!

    16. LJ*

      have you thought about other administrative roles that don’t require more formal education? For example, perhaps working your way up to be an executive assistant, which requires a high degree of organization and people skills.

    17. sparkle emoji*

      It might be worth it to get a community college degree that would allow you to do bookkeeping/basic accounting roles(accounting clerk) to get an idea of the field. I’m not an accountant but I am a recruiter who hires for accounting roles, and a relevant associates will make it easier to get your foot in the door with no on the job exp, at least from what I’ve seen.

    18. Legal Billing Coordinator*

      I am a billing coordinator at a law firm, so we fall under the accounting department. My first job out of college was at a small medical office doing reception/billing. I learned all the medical billing stuff on the job and a lot of the skills were transferrable to legal billing. I do have a bachelor’s degree (liberal arts), but it is not necessarily required for entry-level billing, accounts payable, or accounts receivable roles, depending on the company/industry. I’ve found that entry level legal billing roles seem to be more sparse these days because firms are more interested in experienced candidates, but we do regularly hire for entry-level accounts payable roles (turnover is higher). Those roles don’t require a college degree (although an associate’s degree is preferred), but they generally want a year of experience. You could look into temp agencies, but again they may want experience. In general though, accounting-related positions are always in demand in my experience. Money makes the world go round ;)

      As for what I actually do all day, billing doesn’t involve much sophisticated math, it’s more about attention to detail, following procedures/policies, keeping track of deadlines, and good communication. Being generally competent with computers (particularly MS Office) and an ability to learn how to use new software is important. I communicate mainly by email with attorneys or other staff to ensure the bills are completed on time and according to internal or client guidelines. There is some data entry/maintenance in our billing software. I also generate reports in order to convey billing data to attorneys or clients. Basically, there are elements of accounting, project management, data entry, and copy editing.

    19. Bitte Meddler*

      I went back to school to finish my Bachelor’s (landing on Accounting versus all the majors I’d tried on in my late teens and early 20’s) and to get a Master’s in Accounting.

      I can’t stand working consistent overtime, so I knew I didn’t want to go into Tax or Corporate Accounting, so I became an Internal Auditor.

      The work is project-driven, and being organized and able to stay on top of your tasks (and those of team members) is a key skill. You’ll also be learning something new with every single project. So if you’re someone who wants to come to work and make the same weekly, monthly, quarterly, annual journal entries and reconciliations, Internal Audit isn’t for you.

      I have chosen to not get my CPA because (a) I don’t need it, and (b) after getting three audit-related certs, I am done with studying for and taking intense exams. :-)

      Without any kind of degree, I think you’d only be able to get a [potentially crappy] bookkeeping job at a small mom-and-pop company. But you’d still have to take classes to even offer yourself up for one of those roles. At minimum, you would need basic accounting (usually broken up into Accounting I and Accounting II), plus probably QuickBooks, as well as working your way up to some intermediate Excel classes.

      When I went back to school (in my late 40’s), I still had some lower-level undergrad classes I needed to knock out, like Biology and those early-concept Accounting classes. With a Pell grant, I was able to attend my local community college for free, including books and supplies.

      So, with no classes and no bookkeeping experience, I’d say your chances are slim of landing any kind of job related to accounting.

      With *some* classes, you could probably become an Accts Receivable or Accts Payable clerk, or someone who does data entry into a small company’s accounting system, like QuickBooks, and then hopefully parlay that experience into a better role elsewhere.

      With an Associate’s degree, you have a very high likelihood of being hired as a bookkeeper.

      With a Bachelor’s degree in Accounting, you could easily be hired as a Corporate Accountant, Corporate (Internal) Auditor, or an External Auditor, even without a CPA. You could also work in Business/Regulation Compliance or Risk Management.

      With a Master’s degree in Accounting or an MBA, you can become whatever you want to be that is accounting / finance / business related.

      I’ll note that the people I’ve seen who grow the fastest in Internal Audit are the ones who have had work experience outside of the Accounting & Finance industry.

      Lastly, if you’re worried about the cost of a college education, my first job offer after graduating with my Master’s was upped by $10,000 just for having the Master’s. If that was the only job I’d had, I could have paid off my undergrad and grad student loans in 7 years with the extra $10k alone (taking into account that my take-home value of the $10,000 was more like $7500 after tax and other deductions).

    20. Anon for this*

      I think trying to get a couple of informational interviews might be helpful. They were extremely helpful to me when I was transitioning from the military to accounting. They helped me realize that no, you don’t start out as an accounts payable clerk and get ultimately promoted to CFO, as well as understanding the value of a CPA (or not) in different roles.
      I think it’s important to think about what your brain is like. I have a very strategic brain, so my goal was to get as high up in an organization as fast as I could. I can do detail work, but only as a one off. Routine detail work is like death to me!
      If you like doing the same thing over and over, are very detail oriented, and like things to be correct all the time and take pride in that, and don’t need a lot of people contact, you might be good at accounts payable and payroll. No degree required there, but some kind of classes might help you land a job.
      If you like the routine and the detail, but a lot more people contact, accounts receivable and collections might be up your alley.
      There are also staff accountant and financial analyst roles, which are very different.
      Perhaps read a lot of job descriptions on line and see what resonates with you?
      Good luck!

      1. Anon for this*

        And to give context, I’ve been a CFO for years and have my MBA and MSA and CPA.

        In order to become a staff accountant or financial analyst, you’ll need a degree in accounting.

        1. Anon for this*

          And if you don’t want the insane monthly/quarterly close schedules, do NOT work for a publicly traded company.
          I’ve been lucky enough to mostly avoid those, but the couple I ended up at were a living hell at month end.

    21. Commander Shepard's Favorite Store*

      Holy cow, thank you SO much to everyone who’s responded! I was not expecting such a wealth of information and I’m incredibly grateful for it. You’ve given me a lot to think about, and I can’t say I’m surprised that a college degree sounds more or less like a necessity. My main concern is that I have a mortgage, car payment, myself and cats to feed, etc, and can’t afford to take four years off work, and unfortunately I don’t have the ability to work and study concurrently (I’ve tried!). I’m also 35 already and don’t know how I feel about being nearly 40 and trying to break into a new industry as a fresh grad. I’m not going to rule it out but I’ll definitely also look into some of the other options you’ve all suggested.

      1. Bitte Meddler*

        I had a ball being an intern and breaking into a new industry at age 51!

        Internal Audit is my 5th career:

        1. Admin / Exec Asst (ages 19-25)
        2. IT hardware tech (ages 25-30)
        3. IT software sales person (ages 30-44)
        4. Small business owner (ages 39-52)
        5. Internal Auditor (51 until, hopefully, retirement)

        I’ll also relate the story that my junior high gym coach told us at the end of 9th grade:

        When Coach was in college, she went to a friend’s house. Coach, the friend, and Friend’s Mom were sitting around the table, chatting. Friend’s Mom said she envied the two of them and wished she’d gone to college. Coach pushed her to go back to school.

        Friend’s Mom said, “Gah. I’d be almost 50 by the time I graduated in four years!”

        And Coach replied, “OK, but how old will you be in four years if you *don’t* go back to school?”

    22. Prorata*

      30-plus years in accounting, most at the Controller level….

      A couple of things to keep in mind:

      1. Not having a degree will be very limiting – a certificate from a Vocational-Technical School is a start but if you can go the 4-year route, try to do so.

      2. Deadlines can/will be inflexible, and penalties for missing them can be steep. Probably won’t be money directly out of your pocket, but it could be your job on the line.

      3. I don’t care what realm of accounting you work in, there are always busy periods, you will have times where you WILL work late, and quite frankly, during those periods you will not have a life outside of work. If you are lucky, you will work for a company/organization which allows generous flexibility in scheduling/flex time. I’ve never been blessed with such, though.

      4. There will be times where you are the bearer of bad news, with predictable results.

      5. I’ve been screamed at by everyone from CEO down to new salespersons for reasons ranging from delivering poor financial results (See #4 above) to enforcing legal regulations regarding taxes, garnishments, and contract compliance. I’ve had “Rain Makers” threaten to get me fired because I enforced rules set by company leadership, to violence threatened against me because the company I worked for was late paying bills to subcontractors.

      5A. – In many companies, Accounting is the “adult supervision” of the firm, the ones tasked with enforcing financial rules and often times, telling people “no, you can’t do that”. People will push back, and you will find yourself having to defend your decisions, and will sometimes be overruled by leadership. Documenting everything is essential – if it’s not written down, it never happened!!

      6. You will be privy to information you may not want to know. I’ve been in companies where I knew layoffs were coming, they did not meet WARN requirements, people who were going to lose their job would ask me how things were, and I would have to say nothing.

      6A. Familiarize yourself with the term “Material Non-public Information”, and the legal ramifications relating to such.

      I have to tell you, you might consider truck driving school, HVAC installation & repair, or plumbing as a career change. Believe me, there are days I do.

      Good luck!!

      1. Prorata*

        The positives, and there are some…..help guide direction of the company, good pay, and I’ve worked with some good people. A

    23. GythaOgden*

      I trained as a chartered accountant (UK version of a CPA) before I realised I lacked the stamina for it. In my organisation, they had actually employed some non-graduate trainees but they had to do an extra year than graduates did. There were a couple of older women in the intake I was in, but they again had degrees, as did I.

      I also have an AAT qualification but I’ve never used it. I took the enjoyment I had in the study and went for a Masters in my undergraduate field instead. Definitely do not do a course that is geared around a particular system you wouldn’t be practicing in! It won’t be relevant for you to be looking at our VAT rates or Pay As You Earn tax system when you’re going to be working within the much more arcane US system or another jurisdiction. Those courses are not just the simple principles of accounting but focused around working within a particular tax ecosystem.

      If you want to be a chartered accountant/CPA, you probably do need higher education. But if you can find a local version of the AAT, then you might find you can start in a general administrative role and acquire the qualification, meaning you have both technical experience in an office and a certificate that says you can do the crunchy stuff like (e.g. in the UK) filling out a VAT return correctly. Try finding general office work through a temp agency if you don’t already have that and work hard to find a permanent job. (If you’re brave, you might find the perm position at a smaller business because you get exposed to more aspects of the business that way rather than being just another administrator in a large company with very stratified roles.) Give the job you get employed to do your all and prove you are competent in an office situation, and demonstrate a willingness to learn/take on stretch projects rather than just do the bare minimum. Even if you have to move jobs a couple of times, you will be getting more strings to your bow and building up confidence in employers who might then start to take your professional development seriously and sponsor the course for you.

      But it will take more than the minimum to get by. It’s what I’m doing now; I’m doing a wide range of stuff, being a fly on the management wall, accepting jobs for other people in other departments/regions all in the name of being seen to be not only a team player but for my own personal development and mental satisfaction. My brain likes variety so I make a good gofer, but ultimately I’m like you in terms of numbers and pattern crunching — that’s what definitely helps in any kind of accounting or audit/compliance role.

      There will be a ceiling for me eventually because I really don’t see myself as either a project or people manager, but I’m eyeing compliance as a way to go upwards in a crunchy discipline and am actually on a working group committee with the bigwigs in that department. I’m also putting energy back into our DEI network since I’ve benefitted from sharing why someone with my educational background was working on reception for ten years, which shows interest in my working environment. It might not be totally relevant to the professional direction I want to go in, but our DEI programme steers between the rock of well-meaning but ineffectual/counterproductive fluff and the hard place of scepticism about the whole issue and it’s something that promotes individual needs and perspectives as well as in- and out-group pigeonholing which becomes problematic at the extremes, so I’m on board as a way of increasing my personal profile as well as in support of the cause.

      My mum also said that the way she climbed the career ladder as a teacher turning into a headteacher was by volunteering for things so that when a paid position opened up she was the natural choice. (And when your company doesn’t show willing to pay for that expertise, that’s when you look elsewhere; mum did generally move around a few times and we moved with her and it was difficult at times but she and my dad were both in very nomadic careers, and it really paid off when we had the sort of support as adults because mum and dad had the resources to help out when we struggled…and boy, have I struggled :(.)

      It’s tough and a bit of a hustle but it will be very satisfying once you get the doors open. Best of luck with this — it’s a marathon, not a sprint, but you’ll get there if you put the work in.

    24. TO person*

      It sounds like the field rather than the CPA is what interests you. A way in might be something like a course in SAP which is widely used for accounts payable/receivable/payroll and where I am it’s hard to find qualified people. Something like that might get you entry level in government / colleges etc. which would allow you access to other jobs. I think that’s an easier way to build a career change than from the outside.

    25. Student*

      One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that government sometimes has lower entry requirements for accounting related jobs. Accounting Technician in my state only requires 9-units. Pay is really low but there’s a path to advancement to higher classifications as you get experience.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Government jobs also often pay for continuing education. Sometimes you can work toward your next certification without using any tuition reimbursement benefits because the class counts for continuing education. Not all government jobs offer tuition reimbursement, but they often cover continuing education. Contracts that require you to pay back x amount for con Ed if you leave in a certain timeframe are becoming more common, especially in Indiana.

  14. NameRequired*

    I have a scheduled surgery in early late September and have also been non-urgently but consistently applying to other jobs. At what point am I too close to the surgery to reasonably apply for other jobs? And when in the process should I tell employers?

    (Surgery has a 1-2 week recovery time, usually people can work remotely after 1 week and can go back into the office after 2)

    1. Jane Bingley*

      Definitely keep applying! Once you receive a confirmed offer, let them know you’ll need time off for medical reasons and ask about the options for handling it. You don’t need to let this stop your career progress, taking a week or two off is not a big ask. People do this with vacations, which are far less necessary than surgery.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You don’t need to stop applying. If you’re asked to schedule an interview during your surgery and/or recovery time, you’re perfectly within your rights to say you’re unavailable that week but you could do the following week (or whatever works for you). You can say it’s surgery but you don’t have to, it’s entirely up to you.

  15. Peanut Hamper*

    Any tips on getting a job as an instructional designer?

    I am a former teacher, have degrees in both science and English, and have pretty good writing skills. Is that enough? Is there something else I should be looking out for?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Do you have any experience with on-line learning management systems (Blackboard, etc)? If not, I’d suggest doing some reading, tutorials, etc.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        I have pretty extensive experience with Moodle. I’ve actually done some development back in the day on a couple of plugins.

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          The state of Michigan uses Moodle for their Assessor Certification and they are supposed to be redoing at least the MCAO course work. This is through the STC (State Tax Commission).

    2. Spacewoman Spiff*

      I lucked into my career in ID–I had some teaching background, am a great writer, and knew nothing about ID except that I happened to have a former colleague working for an ed startup–so I’m not exactly equipped to advise on breaking into the field, but your background is in line with many IDs I’ve worked with. If you haven’t heard of Christy Tucker, look up her website because she has a lot of good resources on starting a career in ID, and training and cert programs if that’s something you want to explore to strengthen your resume. A lot of roles I applied for last time requested an ID portfolio as part of the application or along the interview path, though when I got my first role they offered me some tests during the interview because they knew I hadn’t previously worked as an ID. If you can use any of your existing teaching materials to demonstrate your approach to developing a curriculum, developing activities, thinking through audience, I think that could all be helpful as part of a portfolio.

      There’s also a huge range of roles that all get labeled “instructional designer,” so it might be worth thinking about the type of work you’re particularly interested in…last time I was job hunting, I passed by a lot of ID roles because they included a lot of building learning in Articulate, Storyline, etc., which is something I’ve always managed to evade (sometimes to my detriment, because a lot of roles do require you work in those areas). As well as the type of company you want to work for: I’ve done ID in higher ed, consulting, a startup environment (think something like Lynda, now LinkedIn Learning–where I was actually writing new courses), and the specifics of the work is different in every case, sometimes involving more writing and sometimes more consulting and guidance of instructors who are actually developing the courses. It’s a really fun field, varied work, so I apologize that my suggestions are a bit high level!

    4. LuckyClover*

      Instructional Designer Here – I work in higher ed and consult with faculty on LMS design and development (Canvas) and Universal Design.
      I occasionally pursue other opportunities and have noticed many private sector ID jobs are looking for skills with Articulate/Camtasia/etc. I don’t enjoy that sort of work but my former boss loves it – he’s worked for nonprofits in volunteer development and safety training for a university.
      Instructional Design is a widely varied role – so I would recommend searching what’s out there for the skills different roles are looking for – and determining what niche works best for you / what skills you would want to have to pursue that.

    5. Hermione Danger*

      I’m an Instructional Designer. I had taught at the university level, but not had any formal education education if you will. I got a graduate certificate in ID from an accredited university; that took less than a year and was entirely remote. It was really helpful because it gave me some experience in the development side of things, and also because of the focus on accessibility and on adult education best practices.

      Writing skills are KEY. As are knowing how to identify and focus on the training objectives. Adult learners are busy and are often highly resistant to taking training, so you have to make the time count, and understanding how adults learn best is vital. The least successful IDs I’ve known have been those who can’t write or edit well and those who believe the SME when that person says that EVERYTHING is important for the learners to understand.

      I’m also going to argue that development skills are important because even if you don’t use the software regularly, you need to both know what’s possible when you design so you can communicate your vision to the developers and also so that you can jump in and make quick changes yourself when necessary.

  16. Approach*

    I am in a sticky situation. I was going to be laid off for not moving for a job. my last day of work was going to be July 31st.

    I’ve been applying for months with nothing. Then I got an interview for an internal job which I accepted an offer for. My start date is August 15th (My current boss is keeping me until then). The job is 100% onsite.

    However a company I use to work for and enjoyed reached out to me nearly a month after I applied. I decided to speak with them since the role is 100% remote. I passed the HR screen and it will be a 30% raise, but maybe more like 15% once benefits are factored in. I’m being interviewed Monday.

    I have no clue how to approach rejecting the job offer if I take the other job. Will this burn a bridge? It’s hard for me to turn down 30% and fully remote though!

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      It could burn a bridge, but it shouldn’t. Your company knew you were going to be laid off and should have expected that you would be job-hunting.

      1. Miette*

        This. Fall on the old reliable, “it just fell in my lap” response when resigning and good luck to you.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Will it burn a bridge? Maybe? The real question is, what’s better for you? Would you rather stay with your current company or would you rather accept the other job? Things like this happen all the time.

      1. Approach*

        Yeah I’m also struggling with my framing for the new job. I’m not actively job searching, I only considered them because of my history working there but I’m sending they are worried I’ll accept and run with them too.

        1. HonorBox*

          If I’m reading this correctly, you’re worried about the new company worrying that you’d accept with them and then resign soon? If that’s the case, I think you can frame this as a timing situation, prompted by the threat of being laid off. You’ve accepted an internal transfer with your present company, but had applied with the new company before that. You’re as interested in working with the new company now as you were when you applied, and see yourself there for the foreseeable future.

    3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      You’re resigning a job after accepting it. If you don’t burn the bridge, you’re at best going to badly singe it.

      At the end of the day, though, if remote is attractive to you, the second offer looks like it’s worth sacrificing the first for, IMWO.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I’m sort of mercenary when people start talking about keeping bridges with past employers… What is the bridge for and why do you need to maintain it? Do you expect to return to this company in the future? Will their (organizational) opinion of you actually harm your current or future career, or would their opinion even count? …because if you leave, presumably you already got the next job without their reference.

      Is it a bridge with one or two individuals you are more interested in keeping? It might singe the bridge a bit with your almost-boss, if they were counting on your to start August 15 and now they have to start the hiring process all over — that’s annoying. They probably won’t consider hiring you in the future. Your current boss shouldn’t be upset since you were leaving anyway, unless they have some perhaps unhealthy loyalty to the company.

    5. Hyaline*

      It might be much easier to say this from the outside, but a company that would take this “personally” to the point of seeing it as torching bridges is not a company you should want to stick around with. (A little annoyance at your leaving so soon after accepting an internal offer? Sure. But not dynamite-force bridge burning!) Maybe it will burn the bridge…but that would be an unreasonable and petty response to an employee finding a better job *shortly after being threatened with being laid off*, and you’ll still have a better job!

      Is there any particular reason you’re worried about burning the bridge–or just the general “but I don’t want to upset anyone ever” impulse so many of us face?

    6. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      They weren’t worried about burning that bridge when they laid you off. They did what was best for them and so should you.

      A good pay rise and 100% remote – which usually saves additional money, as well as giving you more hours of free time, further raising your hourly pay. That’s a big step up in career and lifestyle that you shouldn’t refuse.

      Just explain that it’s an offer from an application you made before accepting this internal new job – don’t mention the interview.

      1. HonorBox*

        I don’t even think you’d need to worry about the timing of the offer/interview. You’d put out some feelers when you were going to be laid off. The new company reached out and you’re accepting the opportunity (when presented, of course), which comes with a nice pay raise and the ability to work fully remote.

        If that burns a bridge with them, they’re the ones holding the gas and matches. You were in a situation that forced you to look. The timing stinks, but you’re not in control of that either.

    7. BikeWalkBarb*

      Any chance the internal position would give you a 30% raise and let you work remote? In other words, would they want the opportunity to match the external offer and if they did would you want to take that? You have leverage now.

  17. New-ishManager*

    I need advice on managing a new employee, Alex, who, despite a positive attitude and good performance, struggles with maintaining professional boundaries, often oversharing personal information. We’ve had several discussions about what’s appropriate to share at work, and while Alex is receptive, the lapses continue. This behavior is affecting another employee, Riley, who feels uncomfortable and unsure how to respond or redirect these conversations.

    I’ve incorporated professionalism and boundary-setting into Alex’s performance goals, but does anyone have suggestions for additional strategies to support Riley? I’m thinking about providing Riley with scripts to tactfully handle situations where Alex overshares. Also, any thoughts on the next steps to help Alex improve their judgment and professionalism? At what point does oversharing warrant more serious action, such as a Performance Improvement Plan? I’m finding this challenging so I’d welcome any feedback on how I can navigate this while supporting both employees.

    1. Learn ALL the things?*

      For Riley, I feel like the go to script is “I’m not comfortable talking about that at work.” If they’re not comfortable saying that, try having a one-on-one with them where they practice saying it out loud until it feels natural.

      1. FashionablyEvil*

        Yes, or “I am not the audience for that type of information.”

        I would also make sure you have explicitly told Alex to stop and that you’re not in areas where you could have issues that shade into something like sexual harassment because Alex keeps making unwanted comments about their sex life.

        1. New-ishManager*

          Thanks! I’m working up to having that meeting, and helping Alex practice. Luckily we’re not into the area of sexual harassment, but it has veered into conversations around mental health struggles which is part of why I’m trying to be very tactful when handling this.

          1. Chara*

            Time to stop “working up to” it and get it done. The longer this goes unaddressed, the worse it is. Set a clear boundary, help and empower Riley to do likewise, and then maintain it. And be clear what happens if (/when) Alex oversteps again. But don’t let this keep drifting along while you think about it – that’s not fair to Riley and not helpful to Alex, who needs to learn professional boundaries very quickly.

    2. MsM*

      If Alex is receptive to correction, can Riley just say “You’re doing it again, Alex,” and let that be a signal to get back on work-related topics?

    3. I Can't Even*

      I think how direct you are also depends on how severely out of line the conversations are. E.g. is it along the lines of giving out too much personal information and treating coworkers like personal friends when it is not the same thing or is this person talking about revelations and trying to recruit people to his faith (I have a co worker that does this). One is a social skill problem the other is a HR problem.

      1. New-ishManager*

        It’s too much personal info / treating coworkers like friends. Riley has said sometimes it feels like Alex is trying to use them as their personal therapist. It’s not in the realm of sexual harassment or religion – but I almost feel like that would be easier and more straightforward to deal with.

        1. PotatoRock*

          Yeah, if it’s something like Alex comes in, sees Riley in the hall and starts a 30 minute convo about how stressed they are because of a car issue, and it’s going to be a financial issue, etc etc some good scripts to give Riley are:

          “Oof – gotta get back to work now”
          “Sounds tough! gotta run!”
          “Sorry, I can’t chat now”
          “Can’t talk now, I’m on a deadline”

          ^there’s a variety of different levels of softening language in the above, so Riley can pick whichever feels comfortable and natural

    4. Turingtested*

      It really depends on what Alex is saying. Talking too much about a diet and exercise routine or other personal but not inherently inappropriate topics? Keep coaching. Discussing sex, making dark jokes, it’s time for a PIP.

      I’ve been successful in the past saying “G rated topics are always ok at work. PG/PG-13 topics shouldn’t be mentioned unless you know the person well and are certain it won’t be offensive. R rated topics should never be discussed at work under any circumstances.”

      In the US people have an inherent understanding of what it means and it gives guidelines rather than getting caught up in individual instances.

    5. Goddess47*

      Both you and Riley need to use ‘declarative sentences’ with Alex. You’ve both likely been ‘kind’ and doing something along ‘you should not do that’… especially as the supervisor, you need to be what will feel like cruel and say ‘you cannot do that.” Full stop. “No” (and “Stop”) is a complete sentence that you can empower Riley to use. Riley should not need a script; they can say “stop” and that is Alex’s cue to not continue.

      Alison has some lovely articles on being direct. I’d look for those and see if you’ve been less direct than you think you were.

      1. Tio*

        This.

        Also, the pattern of relapses should be addressed quickly with Alex. And if you overhear anything, please interrupt, take Alex aside, and let them know “This is what we addressed, and you’re doing it again. Can we talk about why you brought this up right now?”

        1. kalli*

          So Alex can TMI to them instead? Nope. If they have an EAP, ‘…you’re doing it again. If you need to talk this out, here’s our EAP details.’ If not, then ‘… you’re doing it again. We’ve gone over it being inappropriate – you need to address this on your own time.’

    6. Hyaline*

      Reading between the lines of the updates a bit–but it sounds like what Alex is talking about isn’t generally considered inappropriate or problematic, but that it’s crossing a boundary that Riley has in terms of her workplace relationship with Alex. That is–you reference mental health, which is not an automatically inappropriate subject the way, say, sex would be. In fact, referencing one’s mental health, struggles with mental health, medication for mental health, and plenty of other things has gotten fairly normalized to the point that someone might not feel it’s an off-limits subject–but depending on context it could be overly personal. Alex is in some ways up against that–the normalization of a subject once considered taboo, so he may have trouble negotiating what is and what isn’t ok to talk about (and just see himself as being honest or even be celebrated by others for destigmatizing the topic!).

      I think your best bet may be focusing not only on the topic of Alex’s conversation but on the nature of a workplace relationship–that he and Riley are coworkers and not friends. That sounds harsh, but he may need to hear it to start drawing distinctions between the two. Plenty of workplaces blur those lines, too, which if he’s had previous experience could be working against him. Then you can help him understand that you talk about work with coworkers, and that the small talk you share about “what I did this weekend” or “did you see the sportsball last night” should remain on the surface, not plumbing the depths that friendship does. Then perhaps you and Riley can employ “that’s not coworker talk” with Alex if he gets too personal/crosses Riley’s boundary.

      If Alex is struggling with mental health, and it seems that’s spilling into his workplace rapport with others, does your company have support you can offer him? He’s disclosing he’s facing the issue, so I would think it provides a natural in to direct him to programs he’s eligible for or how to use his insurance to seek outside help or whatever might be applicable–and this can underscore that you care about him and take mental health seriously but that Riley and other coworkers cannot stand in for actual help.

      Finally–is there any chance Riley is getting overly reactive to fairly normal conversation? I only ask because you say you want to support both, and if Riley is expecting a workplace where no one ever raises “personal” issues–but she’s including very normal topics in that category–she may need some guidance in responding that this is HER boundary, not just expecting that others will know it.

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        This. Almost all of this. (New-ishManager, do not forbid Alex from ever befriending coworkers. Explain that his coworkers get to decide on their own boundaries, and if they indicate they don’t want to entertain his overtures about non-work topics, he should respect that.)

        I would add that Alex may not be on the effect-end of “the normalization of a subject once considered taboo” – he may be consciously causing it, disclosing his mental health issues to destigmatize it. New-ishManager, you might feel out whether he’s trying for self-advocacy; if so, explain to him how “being unable to respect an individual coworker’s expressed boundaries” risks reinforcing the historical impression that professionalism is incompatible with having mental-health issues.

        If any of Alex’s disclosures around mental health overlapped with a condition the EEOC classifies as a disability (they publish guidance on their website) and Alex mentioned it affecting his work at all, you now have a legal duty to initiate the interactive process – this can be very informal (see AskJAN, the Joint Action Network’s website, for some very layperson-friendly advice), but if you discipline Alex (for an issue influenced by his covered condition) before working with him to figure out whether an accommodation can and should be provided, that creates liability (not for you personally, but for the company). Learning how to navigate these issues is a vital aspect of good management, and you should check your policies/procedures to see if you are required to notify H.R. instead of handling it yourself.

      2. RagingADHD*

        Eh, the general topic of mental health is normalized, but (having been in a Riley-type position) there is a *lot* of territory that is not appropriate for work if Alex is sharing about specific symptoms, ideation of self harm, trauma-dumping, etc. Or if, as the OP said in a reply comment, Alex is using Riley as a personal therapist.

        Not only are those topics not appropriate for work, they are not appropriate to pile onto anyone who hasn’t opted-in for that intense of a conversation, especially someone who can’t just leave because they’re at work.

        I think it’s very odd to suggest Riley may be overreacting, since it sounds like OP has actually heard at least some of the conversations in question and has already addressed it with Alex.

    7. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      ” If I or someone asks you to stop talking about a personal topic, we mean permanently, not just this time.
      Please stop talking about your MH with Riley or any other coworker who is not a close friend. It is not work-appropriate and makes them uncomfortable.
      If you need help or accommodations, that’s my job as manager to handle, so please come to me and I will support you”

    8. Office Plant Queen*

      I think it depends a little bit on where the issues are coming from. Obviously can’t diagnose and it’s not your place to speculate, but if Alex’s struggles with boundaries come from autism (not knowing what the boundaries are, plus difficulty reading social cues that tell them someone is uncomfortable) or ADHD (impulsivity making it hard to stop talking even when sensing someone is uncomfortable/not noticing cues due to being distracted) then the best thing for Riley to do is to be very direct, even blunt, in a way that might feel rude to someone else! For instance, if Alex is describing an illness in too much detail, Riley might say “Could we talk about something else? Bodily fluids are too gross to talk about at work.” If Alex is info dumping about pokemon, Riley could interrupt and say, “That’s a lot of detail and you lost me. I can’t take in any more info about pokemon! I’m happy to hear about you having fun playing it, but I don’t want to hear all about their stats and the intricacies of how battles work.” These things can work if Alex isn’t at all neurodivergent, too, but might end up coming across better in that case if they’re softened.

      For Alex, can you ask a little more about what’s going on when the over sharing happens? That might help inform the *how* part of those goals. Do they feel like they understand where the line is on various topics? If not, maybe they literally need it written down and defined – perhaps a chart with columns for general conversation topics, what’s okay at work, what’s okay at work with permission from the listener, and what’s not okay – ideally filled in with their own examples. Or maybe they know what is and isn’t appropriate, but they get started on a topic and suddenly they’ve been talking at someone for 15 minutes about all the different types of oak trees and how to identify them in the winter when they don’t have leaves. In that case, they might need to practice slowing down and pausing, or asking questions so the listener has a way to enter (and end) the conversation. Or maybe it’s something else entirely! In any case, it’s worth asking Alex what they think they’re specifically struggling with

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Yeah, I don’t think I overshare, but I have a habit of talking too much and one of the best responses was our old SENCO (Special Educational Needs Coordinator) who used straight up tell me, “I’m busy now, Irish Teacher. I haven’t time to listen to you.”

        It sounds rude written down, but it was actually helpful because the understanding was that I was free to go and talk to her and if she was busy, she’d make it clear. Otherwise, she was happy to talk.

    9. Ellis Bell*

      If Alex is lapsing in spite of a willingness to stop, it might help to add into your discussions what TO do, rather than just not NOT to do. If you want someone to speak Greek it’s not always productive to just tell them to stop speaking Latin. If Alex is impulsive and inclined to overshare they need a whole new style of discussion and examples of how to share themselves at work without oversharing.

    10. sparkle emoji*

      If you haven’t already told Riley that you’re aware of the issue and that they can/should say stop to Alex, that might help. Knowing you support them saying no thanks to a conversation could empower them to do it more.

    11. For the record*

      This doesn’t really sound like a manager problem as much as a co-worker dynamic problem that the co-workers need to sort out. Riley’s complaint is that she feels like Alex’s personal therapist, which makes is seem more like Riley is weary of the volume/frequency of discussions about Alex’s health issues than uncomfortable with the subject matter itself. Riley sounds worn-out and not wanting to engage in the mental health support (therapy type labor) that Alex seems to be seeking.

      I would guess that Riley and Alex are actually work friends/friendly, and Riley doesn’t want to seem rude by not listening to Alex. What Riley maybe would benefit from is coaching that it is okay to shut Alex down. Riley could try asking Alex to refrain from mental health discussion (or as seems to have happened here, ask manager to get Alex to stop talking about mental health), but that is a request, not a boundary. Effective boundaries are those that can be enforced by the person setting them. So a true boundary for Riley (if a request to stop talking is ignored) might be getting up and moving away when Alex talks about mental health.

    1. WantonSeedStitch*

      This was a nesting fail, I imagine, but I am taking it as a sign from the universe to be patient with the stuff that is moving too slowly with my higher education world!

      1. But maybe not*

        hah! I didn’t see your comment when I posted (hadn’t refreshed), but the feeling is most definitely universal.

    2. But maybe not*

      I know this is in response to the question upthread, but this really does belong as its own standalone comment. Applies to so many situations.

      1. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

        Maybe it needs to be tacked on to the introduction paragraph. “..but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers. Remember, Higher Education is slow, hang in there.

    3. AFac*

      My problem is higher education is slow, except for when you have a task that will monopolize your time for a day. Then everyone needs input from you about 10,000 other projects immediately if not sooner.

  19. PoliticsInOffice*

    I asked a question about 6 weeks ago about politics in the workplace. Prior to this election cycle, my office discussed politics like people discuss weather or sports. We are all on the same page, so to speak, and this was fine for years. Last spring some of the younger people in the office expressed Biden is not a good candidate due to age. Some of the older people in the office took this as age harassment.

    When this got heated to the point of low productivity, leadership shut down politics or references to politics. This was a relief until the debate about 2 weeks ago. The tensions are palpable, it is obvious to everybody that the younger people who want Biden to go are talking amongst themselves and the older people who want a unified Democratic Party are talking amongst themselves.

    I never got involved in the political discussions one way or another but I am tired of this energy at work. Is there anything else we can do? November feels forever away.

    1. Sherm*

      This is a very extraordinary political time, so it’s probably inevitable that an office that cares deeply about politics is going to be affected, no matter the extent to which political talk is forbidden. You can do your part to bring up other topics, and if people are making oblique comments, such as “Bob and Jane are whispering over there, you know what they are talking about it,” you can try to shut it down in a lighthearted way. (“Oh, I certainly need a breather from all that! Did you catch that game last night?”)

    2. Stuart Foote*

      Politics shouldn’t be discussed in the office for this reason, but if people are mad that other people are having conversations about politics among themselves and getting mad that they think they would disagree with those conversations, they need to take a step back.

      1. PoliticsInOffice*

        I am asking how to take a step back. The entire mood in the office is tense. People aren’t making eye contact with each other, long suffering sighs, visibly scoffing when a person “across the aisle” is talking.

        I guess my question is more broad, which is how do you get the office back on track after camaraderie takes a nose dive?

        1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

          I don’t know if these are the right words, but I think they capture what I’m trying to convey. Something along the lines that you want to see the human behind the need behind the expression of the need.

          “I can see the tension in the office and the first thing it makes me think of is how much it means people care, if it can rile everyone up that much. I would like to come back to one example of a goal that I think we all have in common, which is working together in an easy atmosphere. I would like others to know I see them as humans with complex reasons for what they do and believe, and I respect you. If there is something I could do to contribute to a more trusting atmosphere, please let me know.”

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      What are shared interests that are non-controversial? Start a conversation about a beloved/hated TV show (my office was never more unified than when everyone hated game of thrones), about how a local sports team did, ask about favorite restaurants to try in the city. Engage with people on both sides of the current divide. Be Switzerland. If all else fails stick your headphones on and listen to a favorite podcast and ignore the suffering sighs and glares.

    4. Hyaline*

      November feels forever away.

      Unless you’re in a position to really affect the workplace culture, I’m not sure there’s much you can do to make the tension go away. But I do think you can control at least a little for what people talk about around you–and if people start to let their conversations creep toward you, I think you can and should shut it down.

      I have very few flucks to give at this point when it comes to this kind of thing, so I’d probably counter any political talk I heard with “Ugh, I get enough of that from the news! Life is too short. Speaking of too short, Tim, how was your vacation?” Basically–shut it down, pivot. If it makes you the office pariah, at least they’re not talking to you about Biden’s latest interview or this video or that opinion piece. But in my experience there are usually more people grateful for a break from the political talk/not invested in letting it creep into the workplace than there are people who WANT to make it the central topic of conversation, and all those (quiet) people will be grateful you’ve said your piece to the (louder) people and it can start to turn things around. Basically–try not to let the loud opinionated people dictate the office culture.

    5. The Unionizer Bunny*

      When this got heated to the point of low productivity, leadership shut down politics or references to politics.

      That may be a problem.

      If the employer allows non-work topics like “how do you like the weather this week” or “my son turns 18 this week”, they CANNOT prohibit employees from discussing topics that are often preliminary to organizing. Your reference to “the older people in the office” suggests to me that they were banding together to oppose what they saw as an issue affecting their working conditions.

      What you might be able to do is reroute this energy in a more constructive direction. The main drawback is that you’d have to actually talk to people – and, yes, about politics. Encourage the younger people to focus more on specific flaws Biden has demonstrated, things which are problems for leaders of any age. Check if any of your older (more experienced with a greater variety of employers) coworkers have encountered the “divide and set against one another” strategy in management before. (You all used to be able to settle things openly with each other – until management intervened.) Ask if there are any other conditions at work that they were upset about before this became the main focal point. Get people talking about what they agree on. That will be a more positive energy, and they may find that they’re able to resolve the age issue more easily once they’ve reminded themselves of how they can work together (outside of assigned tasks).

      1. PoliticsInOffice*

        The younger people were concerned with Biden’s fitness for President and they saw that as vocalizing a political opinion, which was accepted at the time. The older people saw it exactly as if they say “a POC can’t be president” or “a woman can’t be President.” That is where the divide happened, it got better, and now it’s even deeper.

        At lunch today I heard an older co-worker refer to a 20’s co-worker as a “bedwetter” and then they joked about raising the voting age to 25.

        I am in my 40’s and typically don’t talk about this at all so I think both groups see me as a safe space.

        I want to go to work and do my job without this constant tension but I don’t think I can follow this suggestion. It’s too much.

        1. Jill Swinburne*

          If you’re being treated as a safe space by both camps, then you probably need to make yourself unsatisfying to politically discourse with. Non-committal replies, swift subject changes, etc.

          The trouble is, it won’t end in November, whichever way it goes. So if you’re exhausted now you need to find a way to protect your energy because it’ll be a long time before any politics talk isn’t divisive.

        2. BikeWalkBarb*

          Yes it is too much. It’s asking you to be the mediator for the entire office. Probably not in your job description and would take even more energy than what the two-camp set-up is costing you now.

          Do you have an EAP and can you turn to that for some direct help for you personally?

          That bedwetter comment is way out of line and reflects age bias. What about taking that to a manager and asking them to do more to direct people toward appropriate behaviors and language?

          If you were in my state you’d be able to introduce the topic of a certain ballot initiative and they’d all be on the same side fighting it. I don’t suppose you have something like that handy to introduce as a topic where they’d find common ground and potentially redirect the energy in the room?

          1. The Unionizer Bunny*

            Yes it is too much. It’s asking you to be the mediator for the entire office.

            If management is in the 40+ group, they are covered by the ADEA – continuing to say that “leaders of aged-ness” aren’t fit and must retire can be risky, especially if management observes their workers begin to:

            [blockquote]reroute this energy in a more constructive direction.[/blockquote]
            and
            [blockquote]Get people talking about what they agree on. That will be a more positive energy[/blockquote]
            and even
            [blockquote]they’d find common ground and potentially redirect the energy in the room,[/blockquote]

            Getting the younger group to stop fixating on leaders who are old – and presidents – will bring them back to a perspective where they can hear the older group saying “lots of leaders have problems like this, it’s not just the old ones” about workplaces they’ve been in before.

            And maybe, once they get to talking, they’ll realize that some of those dysfunctional qualities are also having effects on their own workplace. It starts local: they can all agree on bad working conditions that need to go.

  20. Anon E Moose*

    The job that I applied for in November and didn’t get reopened in May – I reapplied and got two phone screens and a half day multiple people in person interview last week. I heard from the HR person on Monday that they are hoping for a decision soon, but I’m going a bit crazy here!
    Waiting sucks!

    1. Procedure Publisher*

      I agree about waiting being something that sucks. My hopes is that you will hear back sooner rather than later.

  21. What are jobs?*

    I don’t like my job, but I don’t feel like I know very much about what jobs even exist in the world beyond the big ones, like doctor, lawyer, accountant, and the like. I want to get a feel for what jobs are out there that might be a better fit than the one I have now. If you’ve got a minute, can you tell me what your job is and what you like about it?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I recommend you check out the “how do you learn what types of jobs exist?” post from April 14, 2022. Some of the advice is geared toward that specific letter-writer/people with PhDs, but there’s a lot of good, general advice for finding out more about what types of jobs are out there.

      Also, read through the posts in the “interesting jobs” category in the sidebar! I knew some of these exists (prison librarian, children’s entertainer) but I had never heard of some of the others before I read the posts (veterinary social worker, death doula).

      2. Lady_Lessa*

        If you are good with your hands, and are moderately to strongly detailed orientated, may I suggest Quality Control/Quality Assurance.

        You need to be detailed oriented to make sure that the tests are done correctly, promptly and that the data can be found by others. As least in a chemical lab and for companies that make widgets, many of the tests call for reasonable amounts of dexterity, like using micrometers or draw down bars. If you like colors and have good color vision, that is also a way to go, since color matching is a skill, even if you have instruments to help.

      3. just here for the scripts*

        Strongly recommend Johnson O’Connor to see what jobs/careers people with your aptitudes excel at. Link and summary in my next post below

        1. just here for the scripts*

          https://www.jocrf.org/about

          Through our testing program, clients learn about their particular set of natural traits which then empowers them to make educated choices about school and work. Through our research, publications, and presentations, we contribute to a wider understanding of humans as individuals.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      I’m a learning support teacher at secondary level, which honestly,is probably one of the jobs you know of, but I love talking about it, so I’m going to anyway.

      What I like about it: the independence. This has always been one of the reasons I wanted to be a teacher. I remember being ten years old and joking that I wanted to be a teacher because it was the only job where you didn’t start at the bottom. That was a joke, but it was also a childish way of trying to put words on what I hadn’t fully thought through, the fact that you are the one in control in the classroom and there is nobody to micromanage.

      The creativity. I love being able to come up with lesson plans and so on. This is something I love about teaching in general, but it’s extra-true in resource where there isn’t a set curriculum or a test to “teach to.”

      I love seeing students engaged in a task I’ve set them, like when I had them create their own board games or write their own versions of fairy tales (where I got comic strips, court cases trying the villains, prequels, etc) and so on. I especially love it when they come up with something I hadn’t thought of.

      I like the “events” – the graduation ceremonies, award ceremonies, Christmas concerts, Halloween costume competitions…

      I like the variety. Every class is different. What works with one might not with another. I had one particular student for resource who loved what most of us would consider the “boring stuff,” grammar exercises, spelling tests, etc. If I gave him a creative assignment, he’d write two lines and say he couldn’t do any more, but he’d do pages of stuff like “rewrite the sentence from the past tense to the future tense.” It wasn’t how I usually teach, but it was what worked for him, so I went with it.

    4. NB*

      You might enjoy playing around with the Occupational Outlook Handbook from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Click on everything, experiment with the pull-down menus, etc.

      My job is as an academic librarian, which means I work in a college library. Almost all librarian job descriptions include the phrase “other duties as assigned,” but in a nutshell I help students with their research and create instructional materials to help them improve their information literacy skills. Our work is often guided by the Framework for Information Literacy for Higher Education from the American Library Association. A quick scan of the document will indicate that librarians do much more than check books in and out. What do I like about my job? I love connecting people with information (such as suggesting you take a look at the Occupational Outlook Handbook). I also love seeing students go from here to there with their information literacy skills. It’s such an important time in a person’s development, and I get to be a part of shaping them! We librarians hope we are launching critical thinkers who can find and evaluate good information and use it ethically.

      2. Paint N Drip*

        I’d like to second the BLS source! I believe they have a quiz on the website somewhere that guides you to potential careers based on your skills & interests. There are a million links and it’s all fairly easy to digest.

    5. BellaStella*

      I am a scientist and a project manager. I love working on solutions to problems including working on policy and economics. I love the capacity building I get to do and the legal and science people I work with are brilliant. I an a member if PMI also for project management skills and networking.

    6. IRB anon*

      I work in research administration. Specifically, human research ethics review. (usually called Institutional Review Board.) So I review proposals for research studies to make sure they’re meeting ethical and regulatory standards, that consent documents are clear and accurate and written in plain language, etc. I have no special expertise for this (the board members include experts in various fields, but most boards have full-time support staff who review everything that doesn’t need full board review), you just need really good reading & writing skills and a working understanding of the scientific method, and you learn the rest on the job. I find it to be a good level of challenging, every study is different, and it’s also quite personally satisfying to know that my work is supporting ethical science.

      This falls under the larger umbrella of research administration. There’s the animal-research version of IRB (usually called IACUC), other regulatory areas, grant support, etc. These jobs exist at universities, research hospitals, etc. There are also similar roles at pharma companies that sponsor the research.

        1. IRB anon*

          It was an entry-level job right out of undergrad, so there’s not too much to tell in my case! I had done some psych research in undergrad, but you don’t need any particular background. A science or research background definitely helps, and a compliance/regulatory background even more so, but I also know of people who made a mid-career switch from community health worker, social worker, teacher, people with a graduate degree in English and no science background at all, etc etc.

          The main qualifications are IMO really strong reading, writing, and critical thinking. You also can’t be allergic to bureaucracy OR too much in love with it. I genuinely enjoy negotiating with people and navigating the red tape.

          1. Soft clothes for life*

            You sound absolutely amazing to work with! I’m on the applicant side and am so, so appreciative of research admin folks with the approach you describe in the last paragraph. If you don’t hear it enough – thank you!!

    7. SpringIsForPlanting!*

      I’m a software product owner. We’re like, the bridge between software users and the IT folks who write the code. We figure out what the software needs to accomplish so it can be effective for the users, and then translate that into clear requirements for IT to turn into code. There’s more but that’s the heart of it. I like that it’s creative and analytical; every day seems to be different, and it (mostly) feels like I’m genuinely doing something useful.
      Tangentially, when I was coming out of academia and in a similar “what are jobs” boat, I spent some time just noodling around job boards, looking at postings. I’d look at role descriptions, salaries, requirements, and start to mentally put together a picture of what I could be good at and enjoy, either then or with some additional qualifications.

    8. Medium Sized Manager*

      I’m a Senior Claims Manager for a pet insurance company. I am responsible for people growth & development (and babysitting) as well las documenting processes & programs to help the business run smoother. I also field escalated customer complaints when complaining to the “regular” peeps just doesn’t cut it. Mostly, I help people & their pets get the care outlined in their policy, and I help my team earn promotions.

      I personally love working in insurance – it takes away a lot of the appeasing to your squeakiest wheel found in customer service/hospitality since it’s so regulated. I also don’t work in the questionably ethical sphere of health insurance, so grain of sale in that regard.

    9. Hillary*

      I’ve spent my career in supply chain. I’ve been a transportation analyst & manager, then moved more into the tech side as a product manager for supply chain software. Now I run a startup making products to fix the things I was frustrated with as a product manager.

      What I liked about supply chain – new puzzles to solve every day. I get bored easily and like shiny things. And I got to work with people to identify and solve bigger issues.

      I didn’t like the stress of operations and never being able to take the last week of the year off.

    10. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      I’ve held a cluster of roles that are inter-related: Graphic design, where I helped companies define and express who they are visually. Messaging / communications, where I helped companies tell a story about why someone should care about them, or explain complex topics (finance, tech, climate) in simplified terms. Qualitative research, where I interview or observe people to learn what they care about and why they make the choices they make so that a company understands their market, customers, employees, or stakeholders better. Culture design, where I help companies figure out how to actually be what they say they are or want to be. What I like about all of these is going deep to understand people and what matters to them, solving puzzles and contradictions, and boiling big ideas down to their very core.

    11. Anon for this*

      I’m a landscape designer and will hopefully someday get licensed as a landscape architect. I design outdoor spaces (patios, terraces, gardens, campuses, roof decks, etc). Right now I work mostly on apartment buildings and hotels. In the past I’ve done very high-end single family residences.
      I love my job because it’s fun and creative; I get to learn and think about a lot of different things (from plants to paving materials to city regulations to drainage strategies); I get to go outside occasionally but the job isn’t too physical; and I get to make beautiful spaces for people. My company works on a lot of public /affordable housing projects and I love being part of those projects.

    12. Banana Pyjamas*

      I’m a tax assessor. I’ve been mostly in data compliance adjacent roles. How stressful these roles are will depend on your CAMA system leadership, and historical context.

      I enjoy splits and consolidations and the title search they can entail. Deeds are basically long word problems with legalese interspersed. The exception to this is abandoned railroad, which can be a bear to research. Sometimes digitized copies aren’t legible and you need to go to the record holding office to view microfiche or old plat books (which you’ll often need a magnifying glass to read). If you get into super old documents you will need to be able to read cursive.

      The sales ratio study is fun to me. This is a statistical analysis of the jurisdiction’s assessed values. Different stats tell you wether you need to trend or reassess. Looking at before and after can tell you how well sales were verified or how well your neighborhoods are assigned among other things.

      I was shocked how much I enjoyed data collection, but being out of office, in the daylight and weather was amazing. I LOVED it. Data Collectors need to be able to operate a vehicle, walk on uneven ground, bend, stoop and have excellent environmental awareness. In states like Alaska you will need to be able to operate a wide variety of vehicles like snow mobiles and ATVs. Office positions don’t actually require those abilities but unfortunately the job descriptions usually do.

      I think I’m planning to pivot to mapping oriented roles and/or data analytics , as I enjoyed making infographic maps. Many places use ArcGIS, but about 10+ years ago there was a big push to move to Google services. With the discontinuation of Fusion Tables it’s possible that has reversed.

      I enjoyed analyzing appeals as well. In some jurisdictions the assessor will be doing their job well, and the result will usually be no change. In others, you will need to be able to suggest appropriate value changes and depending how reasonable your assessor is you will need to be able to defend it to them first. You may need to be able to work well with third parties like attorneys or appraisers, but that will vary by role.

      About half of recent positions I looked at consider experience in lieu of education. Some require a specific number of years in an assessment office, but others consider experience in a related field. The most common degree in job postings is Accounting/Finance, Business Administration and Real Estate tie for second, closely followed by Public Administration. Other related fields and degrees include math/stats, GIS, urban planning, architecture, and engineering.

      Some states like WV, OH, TX have terrible pay as par for the course. Others like NY, IL, and MI vary wildly.

  22. Employees mom keeps reaching out*

    I wrote in two weeks ago about an employees mom reaching out about her daughter’s hours & pay. She’s reached out again! What the hell do with this? This time it was about her daughter’s health. The daughter is about to turn 40.

    “Hey! I told (daughter) that I think she needs to have blood work done. She keeps having swollen glands and low grade fever and just feeling rotten. I told her I want her to go to the dr tomorrow. Would you please encourage her? But I’m worried. I hope it’s not mono. She’s had it a couple of times. If you would encourage her to go I would appreciate it. She hates missing work but she can’t wind up in the hospital! Thank you! You don’t have to let her know that I asked you!”

    She also included details about her daughter’s menstrual cycle and medications, but I’ve omitted that here.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      When the mom contacted you before, did you say anything to the employee? First, the employee needs to know that her mom contacted you, and second, you need to gauge whether the employee is mortified or encouraging. If it’s the former, I would ignore mom and let daughter deal with it, but if it’s the latter, you need to have a conversation with the daughter about how inappropriate this is.

      Also… wow, I feel really bad for the daughter. My mom meddles and I would be absolutely furious if she did this.

      1. Employees mom keeps reaching out*

        I did not. Frankly, the daughter is the most stereotypical only child I have ever met (I am an only). She is single and is INCREDIBLY close with her mom. I really figured the daughter knew, but now I know she does not. It’s also really obvious that the mom doesn’t have the whole story about her daughter’s performance. I mean, I’m sure she is ill. I also know from office talk she went to three bars on Tuesday night, which IS NOT MY BUSINESS, but I’m sure Mom doesn’t know that figures into the equation. I obviously do not respond to the mother, but I’m getting the feeling the daughter is throwing me under the bus when I have been more than accommodating.

        1. Tio*

          I think you need to be clear with her.

          “Your mom has reached out to me about personal issues regarding you twice, and that’s not appropriate. From now on, can you make it clear to her that she’s only to contact me if there is an emergency and you are not able to contact me yourself? I’m not going to discuss anything further and it is very out of line with professional norms. Other companies would not look positively on this kind of interaction, just so you are aware.”

          You can also send a version of that to the mother, if you want. “Hello (Employee mom), I do not discuss health or other issues with employees unless they initiate a discussion, and in that case it would be private. Please do not reach out to me again in regards to Employee unless there is an emergency and she is unable to contact me. Thank you.”

          1. kalli*

            I wouldn’t give the mom an opening like that because she may well just go ‘but it is an emergency, what if it’s cancer? you have to make her go to the doctor!!’.

            Just a) ‘we don’t discuss employees with other people’ and b) block the mom’s email. If the daughter ends up hospitalised and unable to reach out herself, her mom can ring, and you can hang up after ‘daughter can’t come to work because hospital’, where everything after that should go back to going directly to the actual employee even if it is just ‘please see medical certificate attached’.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Do not reply to mom. Let employee know her mother is contacting you and that you will not be responding. Block mom email if needed.

      2. lost academic*

        This. Block the mom because it’s so far past the appropriate boundary you can’t even see it and let the employee know you’ve done so, which also lets them know they don’t need to be worried about you seeing that kind of information.

        WOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.

        1. Paint N Drip*

          I wouldn’t block the mom. It’s clear mom is employee’s closest contact, if there’s a legitimate emergency or issue mom would be the one who will be calling

      3. Kay*

        This! I was wondering how LW got through all that info without stopping the mom (I was assuming it was a phone call, but if it was an email I would have stopped reading and replied telling her so!) and telling her it is inappropriate and not to let it happen again.

        1. OP*

          Her mom found me on socials, but we are in a very small town. Her mom is friends with my grandmother and aunt. I guess I was hoping ignoring her the first time would stop it without blocking. It did not.

    3. londonedit*

      Oh my word. I’d definitely speak to the employee and let her know that her mother has emailed, and say you’re unable to speak to her mother about anything – work-related or not. I’d also email the mother back and tell her the same – you’re unable to speak to her about anything relating to her daughter, and if her daughter has health concerns they’re hers to manage. Keep it really brief and to the point.

    4. Panicked*

      I wouldn’t reply to the mom at all, but I would talk with the employee about mom reaching out. I would let the employee know that you will not reply to mom, but you wanted her to be aware so that she could handle it.

      As a daughter and a mother, I cannot fathom my mother reaching out to an employer, nor can I fathom an instance where I would do that to my child. Wow.

    5. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Tell the daughter what mom is doing.

      Shut down the mom. “I do not discuss employees with people outside the company nor do I manage their personal lives and medical decisions. Stop contacting me.” Then block her if she keeps at it.

    6. Alex*

      I’d respond that my employees’ health decisions are not my business, and that I’m not comfortable with communication with my employee’s family unless it is an emergency, especially in secret. I would then let the daughter know that her mother is doing this and that I have told her it is inappropriate but she may want to deal with her mother herself.

    7. Genevivienne*

      What did you do after the previous contact? That’s going to be the determining factor here.

      If you did nothing – do not reply to the mom. Speak to your employee, find out if they knew this was happening, and be direct and clear that you will not reply to the mom.

      If you previously spoke with your employee, what did she say? If she was embarrassed by her mom’s interference, let her know it happened again and that you are not replying but wanted her to know. Then do nothing. If she did not previously seem to think this was a problem, be direct and clear with her that this cannot happen and that you will not reply to her mom, and that her mom needs to stop contacting you.

      If you replied to mom last time, it depends what you said. If you told her not to contact you and that you cannot respond to such messages, ignore this new message. Do not reply at all. If you responded in any other way that could be taken as encouraging this communication, reply to let her know that you cannot do as she asks, that this is not appropriate, and that you will not respond in future. Then do not reply to any future communications from her.

    8. Cordelia*

      Wow! I didn’t see your previous post so am not sure how you previously responded, if you did. I would send a terse email to the mother saying “This email is highly inappropriate; I am not able to discuss my employees with you, and will not be responding to any further contact from you”.
      I would then let your employee know her mother has been contacting you, and support her however you can.

    9. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Can you block the mom? Just reach out one last time to tell her that you cannot speak to her since she’s not an employee and then block her email or phone number so she can’t contact you anymore.

    10. Irish Teacher.*

      I think you need to let the daughter know. Not necessarily in detail, but just “I think you should know that your mom has been contacting me with details of your health.”

      And yikes, I’d think this over the top if a parent of one of my older students sent it to me, the 16-18 year olds. Not to mind a grown adult.

      1. WellRed*

        I see no reason not to provide daughter with full information that mom shared about suspected mono and her menstrual cycle.

    11. WantonSeedStitch*

      Block the mom. Tell the daughter you’re doing so, because her working relationship with you is not her mother’s concern.

    12. Rex Libris*

      I’d tell the mother directly “I cannot discuss an employees’ personal information with anyone but the employee.” Then refuse to respond further.

      Afterward, I’d tell the daughter about the contact and explain how wildly inappropriate it is for any family member of an employee to contact their employer about anything barring emergencies where the employee will miss work and is unable to communicate that themselves.

      It’s not about the relationship (good or bad) between the mother and daughter, it’s about adhering to workplace norms, creating an awkward situation for one’s supervisor, and damaging one’s professional image.

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        It’s possible that disability is not a factor, but OP said “I have been more than accommodating”, and that word comes up with the ADA, so I’m going to address it on a contingent basis:

        It’s not about the relationship (good or bad) between the mother and daughter, it’s about adhering to workplace norms, creating an awkward situation for one’s supervisor, and damaging one’s professional image.

        Actually, their relationship – if that of disabled individual and support person – matters more than workplace norms and even policies. OP may think that a 39yo worker . . . wait, a couple of weeks ago she was 40, now she’s not quite 40 yet?

        https://www.askamanager.org/2024/06/open-thread-june-21-2024.html#comment-4759509

        Anyway, if an employee’s experience has been that her disability affects her communication, she may have previously authorized her mother to assist her with it, which would have normalized the practice to her mother. (Individuals with ADHD are in the CDC’s list of “high-risk for COVID-19” categories, even in the absence of any underlying health conditions, because they may not be able to seek out appropriate and necessary care in a timely manner; communication is a “major life activity”.) Aging doesn’t mean an individual “matures out of” the disability category, though an employee who disclosed in a previous workplace might decide she wants to try pretending to be normal in a new workplace (especially if she’s trying to avoid the treatment she faced in her other workplaces).

        The ADA’s accommodation process is all about making exceptions to “how the company usually does things”. Workplace norms are not an “undue hardship” argument. What really worries me, though, is the sentiment that having a third party present for assistance is damaging to an employee’s “professional image”. Disabled people often have to put in extra work opposing the belief that they shouldn’t even be in the workforce. Standards of professionalism that exclude elements historically associated with disabled workers may have originated in a place you consciously distance yourself from. Accommodations in the workplace are usually about enabling workers to get the job done – is it unprofessional for an employee to need help with one aspect of their work, even while they remain competent in the rest? (Independent contractors hire subcontractors. I myself, as an employee, hired a CPA to handle my taxes. Your employer hires everyone there to handle work that the owner may lack both time and skill to perform directly.)

        Perhaps professionalism would be better-achieved by consciously speculating on the most generous explanations for behavior we haven’t seen before, and being tolerant of our coworkers’ diverse working arrangements instead of reducing their worth in our opinion of them.

        1. OP*

          No ADA issues. The first message implied I didn’t give her daughter flexibility. That is False. She had incredible flexibility over her schedule. I also *typically* work the holidays so my staff can have off.

    13. The Unionizer Bunny*

      She also included details about her daughter’s menstrual cycle and medications, but I’ve omitted that here.

      If her daughter is unable to effectively advocate for herself, someone else (e.g. a coworker) might reach out to H.R. saying “this person is having trouble accomplishing their tasks”. That would trigger the interactive process.

      Which, admittedly, could initially consist of “asking the employee if they need help”. Talking to the employee directly is necessary at this point. Providing an accommodation that the employee did not request, especially if it creates further difficulty for her or leads to her coworkers looking down upon her for the perception of a covered medical condition, is bad. You shouldn’t respect her mother’s wishes to be a silent partner in this process.

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        If her daughter is unable to effectively advocate for herself, someone else (e.g. a coworker) might reach out to H.R. saying “this person is having trouble accomplishing their tasks”. That would trigger the interactive process.

        Self-correction: I conflated a support person (an accommodation the individual must pre-approve) with the ADA’s “interference” clause (protecting coworkers from retaliation for assisting an individual with requesting an accommodation).

        https://askjan.org/publications/consultants-corner/vol05iss01.cfm
        https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-retaliation-and-related-issues#fig24

        There are limits to disability-related questions a manager may ask post-hire, even if a coworker passes along what may be maliciously-motivated rumors in the guise of concern or helpfulness. Even a careful “this information was given to me” can contribute to a hostile work environment, if discretion gives the impression that coworkers were the source (when it was a customer), or that multiple coworkers have been actively “discussing” it. Managers need to be careful since the legal standards for employer liability aren’t as strict as the “victim needs to have notified employer so they had a chance to address it” standard for coworkers and customers:

        https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-harassment-workplace#_Toc164808039

    14. HonorBox*

      Normally, I’d be on team “ignore the mom” but now because a pattern has been established, you need to reply. Let the mom know that you cannot and will not discuss employment matters with anyone other than the employee, and you cannot discuss health matters with an employee unless they initiate the conversation. Then that’s the end of the conversation. If this was via email, just reply. If it was via phone, you can wait until she contacts you again to say this…don’t call her back with this statement.

      And absolutely tell the employee. Mom is reaching out behind her back, providing you with a great deal of information (I’d lean toward saying “suspected diagnoses and information about medications that I don’t need”) and she needs to tell her mom not to contact you unless it is an emergency and employee is unable to contact you. The daughter may need the handholding but that’s not your problem to fix.

    15. Chauncy Gardener*

      #1 You must tell Mom you absolutely cannot discuss an employee with her
      #2 Please tell the poor employee!!

      Yikes on bikes

  23. ministar*

    I haven’t had decent feedback since before the pandemic. My boss at that time would always say “you’re great, everything’s great”. Last year I had three bosses in 10 months. Current boss seems like a good person but is very hands off and his attention is on some bigger company strategy. He’s also in a different time zone so there is no spontaneous interaction.

    But I think I might have an opportunity to get feedback from a current direct report. This person was the manager who hired me nearly two decades ago. Over the years I was promoted a few times to become a manager myself and we became peers managing different areas in the same group. At one point I was promoted to a title one step above her but we were still considered peers and we worked together for nearly fifteen years. She was let go a few years ago during some restructuring, but last year she was looking for a non-manager role and I hired her into an open junior level position I had. It’s really been great having her expertise back but her situation has changed and she’s leaving.

    Would it be OK, or even appropriate, to ask her for feedback or observations since she’s been back? I’d be interested in anything she’d be willing to share, either specific to me or how things are going generally around the office, like overall mood and teamwork. She may, or may not, have insight since she returned to an office that is very different from the one she left.

    After that restructuring things changed dramatically. There were three more large restructurings, reporting lines and working groups were completely reconfigured, the direction of the business changed multiple times. The day to day work is similar but the people we interact with are now different and the day to day feel around the office has changed.

    With her being a direct report I’m not sure it’s appropriate to ask for feedback/observations, but she was my boss at one point and has a good decade more of experience in the industry than I do which makes me think its fine to ask.

    1. Bruce*

      If she is leaving I don’t see what harm it could do as long as you have a well established friendly relationship. Former bosses can be great mentors! It does sound a bit awkward as long as they are still reporting to you, though she may have some constructive input even before she leaves.

    2. Random Academic Cog*

      It sounds like you have a solid long-term and mutually-respectful relationship. This is not quite the same as the usual issues surrounding asking subordinates for input. Especially since she’s leaving, I think it would be fine to ask her. Just make sure she knows that she doesn’t have to respond if she’s uncomfortable doing so.

  24. Qwertyuiop*

    How do you deal with a coworker who pushes work onto you? I work with “Jane” who lately keeps telling people to “go ask Qwerty” on things that Jane herself should be handling. My boss seems to like her alot, so I don’t know if going to the boss would resolve things. I don’t want it to seem like I’m not a “team player” but I am very busy with work of my own. Jane sucks up to the managers and they like her, so I don’t think going to them would help. Any advice?

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Start looping your boss in. At your 1:1 ask you boss how to handle the increase in task A in your workload. “Hey Boss, I just wanted to keep you in the loop, I’ve started having X requests for task A, each week. I asked them if they had taken it to Jane, and they said Jane told them to talk to me about it. I don’t mind task A but I wanted to make sure you wanted me handling these types of requests, as my understanding was Jane was leading that area of our project.” Boss may be like nope send them back to Jane or Boss may tell you that he told Jane to divert them to you because of reasons.

    2. Panicked*

      How much time is this taking? If it’s a short amount of time, I’d start refering people back to Jane. “Oh, Jane handles that. You’ll have to speak with her about it.”

      If it’s a more major project/task, I’d talk to your manager and say “If I’m taking over this task, I’ll have less time available for X, Y, Z. Which would you like me to deprioritize?” Hopefully the boss asks why you’re taking on that task and will step in.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you need to bring this up to Jane first, and then to your boss. Based on what you’ve shared, I doubt doing so will lead to any meaningful change, but those are the paths you should pursue. At the end of the day, if you bring it up to both of them, and neither Jane nor your boss see Jane’s duties as Jane’s actual duties, then you need to ask your job description be changed (with maybe a bump in compensation), or just deal with it, or look for another job. I wish I had other advice for you.

    4. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      You don’t know if going to the boss will resolve things, but you won’t know if you don’t try! Just spell out what’s been happening and ask for clarification on who should be handling what. Boss’s answer will tell you all you need to know.

    5. Random Academic Cog*

      There was a similar situation in an office I frequently collaborate with (so I know a lot of their internal issues). The senior employee was dumping all sorts of things on the junior employee and the boss had no idea. It all came out when the junior employee submitted notice – partially because of the overwhelming workload. Because of politics, the boss couldn’t directly warn the next hire, but I could (and did). Just in terms of managing workloads and immediately letting the boss know if things were being “assigned” by anyone else.

    6. Goddess47*

      Yeah. Looping the boss in as a ‘courtesy’ is one approach. But make it a business problem that you are asking for clarification for, not ‘tattling’.

      “Jane has sent Priscilla to me to answer questions about X. I certainly can do that but it means I need to take time from Y to do so. Can you help me by telling me which is more important?” Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Endlessly. It also serves as your documentation on why Y may not be getting done on time.

      Good luck.

  25. Excel Gardener*

    Are all workplaces at least mildly dysfunctional in some ways? Is some dysfunction inevitable? What do ya’ll think?

    The longer I’ve been in the working world, the more I believe the answer is yes. Certainly more extreme forms of dysfunction, like bullying, micromanagement, completely incompetent coworkers, etc. are not normal, but I feel I’ve encountered more mild forms of dysfunction in every job I’ve had. Think things like having one or two underperforming coworkers who never improve, relying on out of date or legacy tech, inadequate documentation, siloed teams, inconsistent communication and collaboration, and ever-shifting priorities.

    1. Too Long Til Retirement*

      I wonder this too. I have only ever worked for family-owned companies though. I can attest that every family-owned company is some flavor of dysfunctional. The level of dysfunction varies, but you can be guaranteed that nepotism happens and too many things are excused that wouldn’t fly in a corporate environment. The flip side is that there are some perks that corporate wouldn’t give out….such as flexibility when childcare is needed last minute.

      1. Excel Gardener*

        It’s funny because I’m the opposite, I’ve always worked government and corporate jobs. It seems like there’s a lot less personal drama or shirking of basic responsibilities, but on the flipside you get things like siloed teams, red tape, and outdated processes that live on years past their expiration date.

        1. Too Long Til Retirement*

          Both the family owned businesses I have worked for still have outdated processes and no desire or ability to change. I think it is inherent in my industry unfortunately. Most companies are owned by Boomers who have been able to stay in business and function this way, so there is no incentive to change and update.

          1. Slow Gin Lizz*

            Interesting that you say this. I just had my car in to the dealer for a recall earlier this week. When I went to pick it up, they said they didn’t have the part they needed to finish the repair (for an appt I made over a month ago). I asked if they’d call me when the part came in and they said, “No, we don’t generally do that for recalls.” So this morning I called the service dept to make another appt and the receptionist said, “Did the part come in? Did they call you to say the part came in?” I’m like, you tell me! She didn’t know the answer and said she’d call me back. (Do they not have a computer system that would tell her that? I know they have a computer system but I bet it’s ancient.) Then she said it’d be another month before I could get an appt.

            The dealership proudly states on their recorded message for their phone tree that they’ve been “family owned since 1938.” I’m assuming their SOPs date back to then.

            This is not even the first or second time I’ve had issues with them. And unfortunately they’re the only dealer anywhere close to me so I’m stuck with them. I console myself by reading their Yelp reviews whenever they start to aggravate me.

            1. Too Long Til Retirement*

              Yeah that sounds about right!! Not all family-owned businesses of course, but I struggle to think of one in any field that is family-owned AND up-to-date on all of its processes and ways of doing business.

        2. Agnes Grey*

          I work in government too, after some time in academia, publishing, and the not-for-profit world. I think different sectors tend towards different types of dysfunction/problems. The ones you mention are definitely common in government and I think they can stem from the pace of change (which is mostly glacial but occasionally more like an avalanche), persistent under-resourcing, and seemingly arbitrary decisions made by an ever-changing set of people who sweep in and out of leadership positions

          There’s a certain learned helplessness that takes hold – you try and try to make things better in a meaningful or broad way, get shut down over and over, and eventually settle for doing the best you can in your own small patch.

    2. shrug*

      I mean, yes, all workplaces are inherently flawed because they are composed of humans, who are inherently flawed. I don’t know that I’d use the word “dysfunction” to describe some of the things you listed. Aside from incompetent employees, the other things you listed strike me as normal features of many workplaces.

      1. TheMonkey*

        Came to say this.

        No workplace is perfect, which means by definition that every workplace has faults. The severity, complexity, and number of those faults vary as does a person’s ability to deal with them.

      2. Irish Teacher.*

        Yeah, that was my thought. I think all workplaces have problems and are imperfect, but to me, “dysfunctional” means something more than that.

        To me, mildly dysfunctional would be something like the incompetent coworkers sometimes get promoted over more competent people because the boss promotes based on length in the company/who plays politics best/who he is friendly with.

        I’ve only worked in one or two places I’d consider even mildly dysfunctional, but I don’t think I’ve ever worked anywhere that didn’t have at least one of the problems Excel Gardener mentioned.

        I would consider “mildly dysfunctional” to be like the worst organised school I ever taught in. There wasn’t any workplace bullying or any of the sort of stuff that has us shocked at in letters here, but the school had virtually no written policies, even those required, the principal called me quite a while after interviewing me to tell me I had the job and he was sorry he didn’t call me sooner but he had misplaced my phone number, it was very difficult to find out about issues with students because people would take offence if you asked them if a student was having difficulties in their class (I once asked the learning support teacher if she knew why a student was so upset that day and she responded with “well, I didn’t give out to him or anything.” I was like, “I…wasn’t suggesting you did. I just thought that when you had him one-to-one he might have confided something to you that he wouldn’t be comfortable saying in front of a whole class.”) and there was one particular teacher who arrived late, left early, did the bare minimum… (I’m talking was literally walking into the school after the bell for first class had already rung, then went up to the staffroom and took his time going to class).

        Maybe that heads into moderately dysfunctional, but I’d be thinking those sort of things.

      3. ecnaseener*

        Yeah, that’s exactly what I was going to say. Nothing special about workplaces — every system on the face of the earth (and in outer space for that matter) involving one or more humans is bound to have a non-zero level of dysfunction.

    3. my cat is prettier than me*

      I think workplaces are dysfunctional because all people are somewhat dysfunctional. There are definitely different degrees though.

    4. Spacewoman Spiff*

      I think all workplaces are somewhat dysfunctional. The trick is to find one that’s dysfunctional in a way that aligns with your personality :)

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      Only workplaces that have people in them. :-)

      I firmly believe that all offices are dysfunctional to some degree, as seen by some people. Trick is, the criteria aren’t the same for everyone. Best you can hope for is a variant on Robert Fulghum’s advice and find a “mutually satisfying weirdness.”

    6. Emotional support capybara (he/him)*

      I think every workplace probably has some dysfunction somewhere, because we are all human people with human people issues.

      That said, I will take my current “somewhat outdated tech that will never be upgraded unless it breaks in a way that cannot be fixed” situation over the previous job’s “Owner is a literal bully who encourages other employees to be literal bullies and also can’t be bothered to get back to the office in time to do payroll on Fridays half the time” shitshow ANY DAY.

    7. Tio*

      The last couple places I’ve been at have been very functional, actually!

      There was a little minor drama at the last place, mostly certain people didn’t really like other people, but they were still polite and professional on the outside. I think there will always be a little small drama, but a non-dysfunctional workplace knows how to smooth it out better and keep it professional.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Any collection of flawed human beings is inevitably going to have flaws, annoyances, stress, occasional friction, some kind of sub optimal situation, and mistakes made. Because humans.

      I don’t think all workplaces are dysfunctional unless you are stretching the word very far beyond its ordinary meaning. Many if not most workplaces function just fine, without abusing or degrading their employees, or anyone tying themselves in knots to keep an illusion of functionality.

      But even functional workplaces are not the right fit for every person on every team at every time, so if someone is trying to make a job work that they aren’t suited for, or if someone is managed by an inexperienced or ill equipped manager, they may well have a bad experience.

    9. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      I think some degree of dysfunction is inevitable in any group of people, and workplaces aren’t exempt from the general human condition.

    10. Banana Pyjamas*

      You just described local government to a t. I was surprised by what you called extreme because to me that’s normal.

  26. Mothy*

    I’m very excited for an interview I’ve got next week! The hiring manager seemed very positive about my application over the phone screen, and what she told me about the position made me more enthusiastic about it. It was great timing to see that Alison’s book is currently on sale, and I will be using it to prepare.

    I’m struggling a little bit with getting overly invested in this job (I’m currently in a not great workplace and really want to get out), but I think I’m managing okay. What I’m most happy about is that I got to the interview stage at all — to me it means that I meet the basic qualifications for this type of job, so even if I don’t get this particular job, it’s just a matter of time before I get another.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      Way to go!! Great timing on the book too :)
      I think your mindset is SO great – even if this specific job isn’t the one, you’re on your way to more interviews and more opportunities
      (I’m changing fields this year-ish and I totally can appreciate the ‘when will I finally be up to snuff’ and ‘I’m finally up to snuff!!’ feelings – I like to repeat to myself ‘bare minimum champion!’ like Andy from Parks and Recreation hehe)

  27. Pink Flamingo*

    I could use some advice about… well, career advice. I was laid off earlier this year and have been job hunting ever since. I’m in an industry (biotech) where the job market is objectively horrible, so there isn’t a ton of hiring going on, and competition is fierce for the available positions. I have an excellent cover letter and resume, and I believe I interview well, but that’s got to be true of a lot of people. I’m not perfect – I stumble over answers sometimes, or think of an even better answer a few hours later in the shower – but overall, I’ve felt good about my “performance.” But even when I had a great feeling about the interview and was able to answer all their questions with concrete examples, I’m still passed over. If I’m in a healthy mood, I think it’s just a numbers game – there’s a lot of qualified people out there, and if I interview for enough jobs, one of them will be the right match for me. If I’m in a less healthy mood, I start to wonder if I’m going to be unemployed forever. Which brings me to my actual question – is career coaching worth it, and if so, how do I find a good one? I wonder what else I could be doing, or if there are other sorts of positions I could be targeting based on my skill set, and maybe I don’t interview as well as I think I do? I feel like I could use some professional guidance, but I know there are a lot of shitty career services out there and I don’t know how to find the good ones. Or maybe I just need to apply for 100 more jobs and eventually I’ll hit on the right one for me? Am I going to have to retire at 45? I’m spiraling and could really use some help!

    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      I think more than career coaching it might be worth looking into normal therapy. Self worth, anxiety, fear about the future, are all things jumping out in what you’ve written here. Having a more balanced mindset makes it easier to come across as confident, knowledgeable and friendly in interviews and just in general makes for a healthier and happier life. I know I went to my therapist about my job problems once and she came back with I don’t think it’s your job, those are symptoms of the bigger elephant in the room (my horrible ex partner). Sometimes it’s hard to see the issues when you are in the center, a therapist can help talk it out with you.

      It is a numbers game but not in the way you think. 100 mediocre applications has less chance of succeeding than 10 really well tailored cover letters, adapted resumes for the job. Application fatigue is a real problem too, make sure you give yourself one day a week (a pseudo weekend!) where you don’t do any worry about jobs or any applications.

      A career coach might be able to help you more if you were trying to pivot job fields, if you decide to widen your net and go for a different career then I’d look more at them. Or if you were struggling in the interviews, having mock interviews and direct feedback might help more.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        I fully agree. My therapist is my best career coach because he knows me, he can see me clearly even when I can’t, and he brings me to a healthy baseline of confidence that is IMPERATIVE for my applying/interviewing success. Me personally, if I’m getting beaten down by the process of job searching, I’m not performing well even in choosing and applying to job openings and I’m certainly not performing well at interviews.

        However if you are looking to pivot, to niche down, to seek a specific role or company.. maybe a career coach could be a good idea! I am fairly sensitive to the amount of loosely-qualified or actual scam coaches that are out there, so I’d just advise you to find a good one (how does one do that??)

      2. Paint N Drip*

        I’d second therapy. My therapist has been my career coach for several years – he knows me well enough to assist in choosing careers/job postings/employers and MOST importantly gets me to a place of confidence so I can perform and impress. If I’m beaten down by the job search, I’m not doing my best thinking about choosing job postings to apply to, not doing my best applications, and CERTAINLY not performing well if I manage to get an interview. The numbers game is real, but you can impact how you show up which will hopefully tip the scales in your direction :)

        It seems that plenty of coaches out there (NOT all) are loosely-qualified if not actual scammers – if you decide to go the career coach route, I’d urge you to do your due diligence.

      3. Weaponized Pumpkin*

        I spent a decade investing in career coaches and programs, believing I just needed to solve tactical problems related to getting out of my way at work, but ultimately it was ther.apy that moved me forward!

    2. HandlingUnemployment*

      First of all, all of this is totally normal. Sometimes people have this image that job hunting is supposed to be easy or fast but in reality it often is neither.

      Are you open to contracting or working at similar positions in different industries if they exist? It sounds like you are, and that’s one place where a career coach could help. Note that many states offer free career coaching of various sorts to unemployed individuals (and in some cases free to all) and I would try that first.

      It never occurred to me to consider contracting, but as my 9/11 layoff started extending (it lasted 19 months) I started exploring other options. I found that it was often easier – not easy, but easier – to get 3-4 month contracts (on average) and I went back and forth between contracting and full time employment for most of two decades. While sometimes contracts can result in regular hiring (I am now 4+ years into a job that started as a 6 week contract, got extended to 3 months, then 6, then until the agency would allow me to transfer to “perm”), it isn’t that common; you would need to think of them as mini short term jobs.

      It also has the downside of frequently having to job hunt, but at least you’re getting paid, making contacts, and hopefully doing some interesting stuff in between.

      One further note on career coaches. I got some paid career coaching twice as part of layoffs. The two experiences were night and day. The first time I was clearly a checkbox the coach had to check off to get paid and there was no real interest in listening to me, brainstorming, or providing anything but generic advice. I noped out halfway through.

      The second time was wonderful. I got access to as many live webinars as I wanted (they did 3-4/day) and could go to the same one multiple times to get different instructor’s thoughts on the topic. My individual coach listened to me, talked stuff out with me, and helped me make job-related decisions that were right for me. In addition to scheduled 1-1 calls, I could email at any time and, if her schedule permitted it, she would hold emergency phone discussions if something time sensitive came up suddenly. Both she and the company she worked for were great (thus was 10 years ago, though, so I can’t swear things haven’t changed). I don’t remember their name and I don’t know if they offer individual as well as corporate services, but if I can I’ll try to report back with a name.

      Good luck, and try not to get too discouraged. It often really does take time.

      1. anonforthis*

        It’s difficult to get contract jobs too. I’ve been out of work for a year and have tried applying for freelance and temp work. Nothing. I’ve reached out to every temp agency in my area and none of them got back to me.

        1. HandlingUnemployment*

          Yes, the application process is the same for both. Recruiters at agencies will only talk to you if they have an opening that meets your needs. You will have to have a phone screen with the agency (if the contract is through an agency; not all are) and then you’ll have the same type of interviewing process as for a full time job. You won’t get interviews for every opportunity. Sometimes there will be multiple rounds of interviewing. It’s still slow and difficult and frustrating. It’s just another option to pursue if you’re not having luck with full time employment. But it mostly requires applying for advertised contract positions as a starting point.

          1. anonforthis*

            If the success rate is the same for contract and full time jobs, then it makes sense to mostly focus on the full time jobs, since they pay more.

            1. HandlingUnemployment*

              They actually don’t pay more. And it expands the opportunities generally, and at various times when there are very few fulltime jobs out there contract work has still been available.

              It’s not a choice between contract and fulltime work, it’s often a choice between contract work if you can get it or waiting to get a fulltime job. If you can accept that type of environment it can limit the total length of unemployment. I didn’t say this time I’m going to look for a contract or this time I’m going to look for fulltime employment, I looked for both each time. There were significantly more opportunities for contracts during most of this century; had I not been willing to expand my options I would have gone years without working several times.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      If therapy is an option for you, I agree with others here that it can be the place you get a reality check and a person to help normalize stuff like “sometimes it takes this long.”

      One free thing you can do: have a friend or two do practice interviews with you. Role play stuff practically always feels overwrought, awkward, cringe, whatever you want to call it but in my experience it helps in a way that is very unique to having actually practiced the conversation as though it is real. Then ask for feedback from your friends – have them be honest but with a view to being helpful. Maybe you’re talking more/less than they’d expect; maybe you gave an example but they didn’t understand what you meant, etc.

      I don’t say this to suggest there’s anything actually wrong with your interview skills; you seem like you have prepped and know what you’re doing generally. Still, it is the last piece of the puzzle and sometimes you just need another person to take a look and see what they think. I bet it helps, even if just to boost your confidence on interview days.

      1. Cazaril*

        I once paid for a few sessions with a career coach, and had him go over my resume and practice behavioral interview questions with me. I found that very helpful.

  28. NaoNao*

    How common are slightly more than everyday irritations or struggles with coworkers (especially when you work 100% remote/WFH, meaning you can’t do the watercooler/lunch table/breakroom thing to build those bridges and smooth over said irritations), feeling frustrated and confused to the point of seeking advice, but not HR or “go to a lawyer” irritations/problems?

    I posted a coworker issue on a different forum and someone kinda…wrist-slapped me by noting that I “post a lot” and that I need to do some introspection and “figure out how to work with other people”. I was stung and taken aback, but realized I’d posted about 3-4 total posts over the last 18 months or so, which does feel like a bit more than “normal” or typical.

    If it’s material to the discussion, I’m autistic and I struggle a *lot* in corporate America and have trouble reading between the lines and figuring out the “game” of work. I don’t think I’m the antagonist in these situations, but then again, see above, heh.

    Anyway, other perspectives welcome.

    1. Cat As Trophy*

      It depends what you mean by “slightly more than everyday irritations or struggles”. How big of a deal are these issues? If these are significant enough that you aren’t able to figure out how to handle them for yourself, and you’ve had four of these in 18 months, that does feel like a lot! I’d say I’ve had one such issue (one that I’d describe in those terms) in the last five years, and maybe two others in the twenty plus years I’ve been working. If this was happening multiple times a year, I’d definitely be concerned.

      If these aren’t significant issues at all, and maybe you just lack confidence dealing with them independently so seek support and guidance from online communities each time, that could be a different matter, but without knowing how big is a deal these issues really are, it’s hard to say.

      1. NaoNao*

        The vary in significance, one example would be a coworker bringing up that she thought my proposal for work was duplicative and even after I’d assured her it was not, she really pushed the issue up to calling a meeting at 7 AM (!!) to address the nonexistent issue.

        Another would be a coworker who can’t seem to answer a question with a straight answer and is the only person with this key knowledge, stuff like that. It’s just a hair more than general everyday irritations but it’s not bullying, harassment, but yet it’s not “personality clash” either, if that makes sense.

        1. PotatoRock*

          Hey! So I’m actually 99% sure I read the other board you posted about this on and remember the interaction.

          FWIW, the vibe of that other board is MUCH less “everyday work advice” than this one, which I think is part of the reaction you got. It is less “problems with a colleague” oriented in general; and when people do bring up work problems and ask for advice, they are more significant, and “higher level” problems than these.

          To the second part of your question – I don’t think having 4 of this kind of “huh, something’s weird, but not actually serious” interactions in 18 months is high – but I also wouldn’t think of these as “problems”, and they wouldn’t rise to the bar of “problems I need to seek others’ advice on”. They are just “normal office politics”. Some people prefer to process by discussing or just get more advice in general, and that’s okay too!

        2. Juanita*

          These actually sound… pretty normal! I would say I encounter these situations a couple times a month in my workplace. The key is not taking personally, you gotta just shrug and move on. (It might help to remind yourself, “Not my monkeys, not my circus!” Unless you are secretly the CEO…)

          Even small gestures like posting on forums about minor issues—which I too have done in the past—can artificially amplify them to take up more of your brain space than they deserve. Something that helped me get past irritating work/coworker issues (that exist in every job) was finding a job with good work-life balance and getting more hobbies and social activities outside of work, including regular weekly classes/group meetings (knitting club, library book club, stretch yoga, dog training, etc.) that I could look forward to and that helped my brain unplug from the workday.

          Good luck! It’s not you, it’s them, and don’t let them take up more of your brain space than they already have.

        3. Cat As Trophy*

          OK, so that definitely clarifies things. Those don’t seem like big deals at all to me, and I wouldn’t characterise them as things I’d need to seek advice on, so not at the level I was thinking. Those actually seem like very ordinary everyday annoyances to me, not anything elevated above that, so I wouldn’t worry about the number of them. The first is annoying but just needs a clear boundary set, the second is so commonplace that I wouldn’t even see it as an irritation, it’s just how things go.

          The response you got might be because of that, actually – if you are frequently seeking advice and support over what seem like very normal and quite low-level situations, someone might think that what you really need is to get better at handling these sort of things on your own without needing help, since they are so common and will happen a lot. Perhaps they were trying (and failing) to be helpful and suggest that instead of addressing each individual situation by seeking support and guidance online, it might be better to think about the big picture and consider how you respond to and handle interpersonal situations more generally. Does that sound possible?

          1. Tio*

            Falling here too. I was expecting something bigger. These are just… things.

            Maybe the second one about a coworker who can’t seem to answer a question with a straight answer and is the only person with this key knowledge is more of a problem, but then that depends on how much they’re bottlenecking a flow. Then the question would be “how do I address the bottleneck.” If they’re not bottlenecking though, jsut being indirect and maybe needing a couple more leading questions… that’s exactly what I’d qualify as something a mild annoyance.

        4. Space Needlepoint*

          Is 7:00 a.m. your regular start time? While there are legitimate reasons for a meeting at that time (regular start date, coordinating with multiple time zones, something is terribly horribly wrong), I would generally find that punitive.

          With the co-worker who can’t give you a straight answer, I feel your pain. I can’t count the number of times I have asked a yes/no question and gotten a novel in response. There are often fewer straight answers to questions than one thinks, unfortunately.

    2. theBookworm*

      I relate a lot to this! I currently work fully remote (with quarterly-ish travel to see people in person) and I love it. But I really do think that little irritations are more common in a remote environment. You don’t have little positive interactions that help you feel benevolent towards a coworker…or you wouldn’t know that they have a flat tire/burned their afternoon popcorn/spilled coffee on their white shirt and that’s why they’re short with you on a call.

      I wouldn’t trade my WFH life if I could, but I definitely prioritize my “optional” in-person travel to try to invest in building those relationships when I do get facetime – especially with the people I know I will be working on more contentious projects with. Not sure if you have an option for this, but I’ve also found some success with virtual teambuilding (trivia hour!) too.

    3. DisneyChannelThis*

      Even if you personally despise a coworker (they kick kittens and use the last of the milk but put back the empty carton!) you still need to be able to maintain a functional working relationship since they are your coworker. Maybe that looks like avoiding them except when needed for work, maybe that’s faking polite social chitchat so that it isn’t awkward for everyone else around you, it’s going to vary by office. If you can’t maintain a professional relationship (work together on projects, share data/results, reply promptly to requests) then it becomes a problem for HR and your bosses, where usually they get rid of one or both of you.

      Re forums, you have to figure out the pacing of everyone else. If everyone else posts 1x a month and you’re posting weekly, that’s an issue and buries everyone else’s posts. I know on a forum I’m on we’ve a user who posts weekly about issues with her best friend but she never takes anyone’s advice, she just wants complain. It’s frustrating and most people have stopped replying to her (why bother, she isn’t going to use advice anyway). Also watch the post:reply ratio, are you asking for help a lot but never helping others? One more is the negative:positive ratio, is it exhausting to read how awful a posters life is every single time, are they Eeyore? One poster telling you to stop posting isn’t the end of the world, unless they’re a mod. But it might be a wakeup call to check your posts a bit.

      1. NaoNao*

        Those are all very solid points! I try to give advice and respond at a fair ratio but of course negative posts will stick out a bit in people’s minds.

        I pride myself on being very professional and polite/upbeat in person and then if I need to vent/ask for help keeping that to online forums or friends that are 100% not work connected. It’s also a bit of a catch-22 in this case because reaching out for help on forums *is* finding a way to work with them, so it feels a little hurtful when people snap back with “find a way to work with them”, if that makes sense! (Not you, I meant the original forum).

        1. PotatoRock*

          If the other forum is the one I’m thinking of too, the vibe is a lot more blunt and less touchy/feely than this. So sometimes you can get a more honest & realistic answer; but it’s also more likely to be “yep, get over it”.

        2. GythaOgden*

          Also make sure you’re replying to others. I’ve been a Reddit mod in the past and there were people who would routinely post stuff but never comment on others’ posts. (They’d often be off-topic anyway so they were often on my radar, but I could see clearly that they expected engagement with their own issues but never engaged with others.) That way you’re not sticking out in a problematic way demanding attention without paying it back.

          I’m autistic too though and I work the other way round — commenting on other people’s threads and reading archives often answers questions I never knew I had, and I don’t often post top level threads here because sometimes the act of writing out what I want help with gives me enough insight to make the leap on my own. But in person with people I often do monopolise the conversation and have had twenty five years as an adult to try and develop strategies to let other people get a word in. (And I’m competing with my mother and sister who have the same issues. I’m positive that all four of us, including my dad, are on the spectrum, it’s just me who got the largest slice of the brain weasel pie :-/.) So make sure you’re picking up on the vibes around you and maybe focus more on helping others.

          For me, actually, going out with an elderly friend (my ‘[village] grandmother’ because my own grandma lived at the opposite end of the country) who had a large family and was always talking about them helped calm those brain weasels of my own — it showed them that the world outside my own head was still turning and that helped ease my anxiety about my own problems which were often pretty ephemeral anyway. It wasn’t until this friend passed away of old age that I realised actually how amazing she’d been in this respect and how much being forced to listen to her talk had eased my own situation. So I made a conscious decision to listen more and talk less.

          As it is though, I have read enough of the AAM archives to know how great a contributor you are /here/, including bravely calling out problematic behaviour at times even when it ran counter to the general approach others were taking. So please don’t let those folks elsewhere get you down. Being autistic is like having very flimsy frames of reference on a lot of things and I actually find that I struggle with internalising stuff that soothes my anxiety and thus take longer to really learn what’s actually dangerous and scary and what’s not. I’m there 100% with you on what you’re talking about because it just feels a lot harder to carve those healthier pathways in my brain and learn to distinguish ephemera from serious business. So I’m sending not only love and hugs to you but solidarity as well. It’s not easy, it’s not fun and it’s so, so hard to develop ways of dealing with things that come naturally to others.

    4. Irish Teacher.*

      3 or 4 posts in 18 months doesn’t seem that much to me, unless they were all “big” issues. I think having a minor issue with a coworker every 6 months is reasonable enough.

      And it strikes me as a bit odd that somebody would be paying that much attention to how often you complain about coworkers. Like in the open threads here, I think I’d notice if somebody was complaining about coworkers once a month or more, but…I have no idea who here might have posted numerous times in the last year, let alone any longer than that.

      1. Gilded Peony*

        I think I know the forum this is about, and it’s much quieter and so easier to see how frequently people post there, and people often also have their own update thread where they post which makes it very obvious. I wouldn’t have a clue here, but over there I definitely know who the frequent fliers are!

    5. Ellis Bell*

      Ironically it sounds like your wrist slapper is way more hung up on the issues than you are! Who pays attention to how often someone posts? Who thinks they can tell from a distance what someone is like to work with? Like, we all have annoyances with coworkers and I honestly think it’s a bit odd for someone to object to someone being honest about that. I grit my teeth over things that are relatively innocuous at about the same rate of your posts, so I’m more baffled by someone taking objection to ordinary human reactions. As long as you’re civil and generous in your reactions, who cares if you haven’t 100% avoided annoyance every single minute of the past two years?

    6. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I agree with the folks describing your issues as … well “irritations” is a good word for stuff not necessarily at the level of a “problem.”

      The absolute biggest and best advice I would give anyone about workplace interactions is to remember that everyone is different. Sounds obvious but for me anyway, it has helped SO MUCH. I find remembering that the same approach isn’t applicable to every co-worker just, takes so much of the frustration out of this stuff. Different strengths and weaknesses make a group/team better, most of the time, you know?

      So, say that Joe’s an extrovert and likes to talk through problems — probably in too much detail but that’s how he thinks, so I learned to roll with it. Priya needs to go away and think about it for a day, then will send an email with three excellent choices for how to proceed, and we can go from there. Jin never sends an email without typos, but makes sure someone copy edits their reports that are client facing, so it’s OK even though the typos make me nuts sometimes. That kind of thing.

      You don’t even need to do this more than 2 or 3 times. Having an “example” can be a good reminder when your new co-worker goes on and on, and you just sort of think “Oh yeah, Joe was like that. This person will probably get to the point in a second” or “Joe snapped out of it when I asked him to cut to the chase, maybe I’ll try that here.”

      My job involves a lot of writing and I realized early on that writing styles are just different for everyone. Some people are terrible for typos but can get something done fast on deadline. Some people are long winded but great about accepting edits or collaborating with others. Some people are great at seeing the big picture but can’t quite put it on paper and need to collaborate with a better writer.

      I hope I’m not coming off as NT-splainy; it’s not my intent to teach you how to read people or put a ton more work on you when this stuff is not necessarily intuitive or necessary to master. I just have found for myself, that the every day reminder of “I would never do it that way, how annoying. Oh well, Mary’s just being Mary” has made it so much easier to get along with people over the years, and most especially in the workplace.

      (Oh, this is for irritants but not toxic people; don’t stand for bullying or other more serious behavior)

    7. Keyner*

      For me it’s partly because I feel these low-level conflicts a little more intensely than others, and partly, I have noticed, that NT people are more likely to have conflict with me, usually because they feel I did something rude, offered an opinion when they wanted me less involved, or struggled to let go of something.

      These issues are helped a lot, actually, by getting feedback from uninvolved neurotypicals. It just makes everything a million times easier if I can process on my own time with explainers from commenters in forums like this one. This is nothing to be ashamed of and the person who gave you grief about it was just being weird.

  29. Applesauced*

    Do you “request” or “inform” your team / office manager / whoever approves time off?

    I’ve always tried to bridge the two, my emails typically read something like:
    “I would like to take XYZ as vacation. This does not conflict with any deadlines, please let me know if you have any questions”

    Our office manager has stated that we are to *request* time off and that it is not guaranteed.

    I think…. PTO is part of my pay, I’m an adult who can manage my own time, I can talk to team members for coverage, but now I have to play your little game, and can’t fully plan my time off until you say so.

    To be clear, I am following her guidance to request time off, but it rubs me the wrong way.

    1. EngGirl*

      I also bridge the gap. I hand in my form and say “Let me know if there are any issues” because sometimes there is something that I’m not aware of yet. I also hand in my PTO forms as early as possible, like months in advance, so if there is a conflict so may not know about it.

      1. EngGirl*

        Adding on that from a managerial perspective I’ve always been of the “tell me don’t ask me” persuasion UNLESS you’re telling me on really short notice during a busy/desirable period or I’ve been reminding you to give the info for weeks.

        When I had 4 direct reports I genuinely didn’t care when people wanted to take PTO, I just wasn’t able to approve more than 2 of us being off at a time.

        So yeah, when one of the guys came to me and wanted to take the following week off out of nowhere and I already had multiple days with two out, sorry no can do. What do you mean it’s for your brother’s wedding? That you’re the best man in? That you’ve known about for 8 months? Ok well get the group together and see what we can do, but you probably can’t have the whole week.

        Similarly I had someone who told me very early on in the year that they needed a week off “in August”. No problem what week? They didn’t know. I kept reminding them to tell me while the vacation calendar slowly filled up. I reminded them multiple times that they needed to give me the specific week or I couldn’t guarantee it would be available. By the time they finally told me that week was already booked by other team members who couldn’t/wouldn’t change their plans.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m glad we have an HR system, where I can just click a bunch of dates, and then my manager either approves or doesn’t (my manager has always approved, by the way). In the past, when I haven’t had that, I’ve basically just asked (and, again, almost always gotten it approved).

      Our office manager has stated that we are to *request* time off and that it is not guaranteed.

      This is incorrect. You can request specific dates, and you may not be entitled to those specific dates, but you’re absolutely right that PTO is part of your compensation and should be allowed to be used.

      1. Random Bystander*

        I am with you there–our system, we just click the dates (you can add a comment, but I don’t think anyone does unless requesting a partial day with some detail about when they’re coming in or leaving, depending on which side of the day).

        As far as time off “not guaranteed” … I’m of the opinion that I do not need to justify my request (whether it is for a doctor’s appointment, a vacation, or just a “because I want a day off”), but any denial needs to be justified by the manager.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I usually straddle the line. “I’m planning to take X & Y weeks off. Let me know if there are any issues with that.” I expect my time off to be approved, so it’s not really a request, just a check-in to make sure I haven’t forgotten about something (I’ve seen that happen). I’m also a planner so I tend to do this really far in advance so we all have time to plan for it.

    4. londonedit*

      We’re a small team, so I usually just say to my boss ‘I’m planning to take the week of X as holiday’, and they say ‘Absolutely, no problem’. Then I request it on the system. I’d rather give them a heads-up rather than just requesting the time off out of the blue – it feels more polite to me. But I definitely wouldn’t *ask* if I can take time off. I’m an adult in a relatively senior position; I don’t need to ask permission to take a holiday.

      1. Polaris*

        This is how our team (which isn’t large) functions. Our office manager would love to lord the whole “you have to ask” over us, but the system of “soft submit to the manager after you’ve previously discussed and cleared it” circumvents it.

        Yep, the office manager is a broken stair in some aspects. This is one of them.

    5. Alex*

      In most jobs, technically, the boss *can* say no to certain days. Most good bosses won’t unless they have a really good reason, but it is a courtesy to ask your boss if a certain day is OK, as it acknowledges that there may be some reason you are not privy to.

      In my case, I do say “I’d like to take X day off if that’s OK with you.” And it always is OK with him, but it’s also possible he’d say “Oh, actually, there’s an event we haven’t announced yet that I’d hate for you to miss. Is that day flexible?”

    6. TX_Trucker*

      We are a 24/7 operation where coverage is essential. Staff generally do both request/inform depending on the situation. I “will” be off on this date (wedding, graduation, court, etc). I “want” to takes these days off (but they are flexible).

    7. Animal worker*

      I work in a coverage based industry, time off requests need to be approved as we have minimum staffing needs required. If your work is more self-directed, and your office culture supports it, there are places where informing vs asking might be fine. But my entire career has been in a field where time off always has to be approved due to coverage needs – so yes it’s part of my pay, but I also realize that a certain staffing level is required. So in my case it would be unrealistic to expect that you can get off whenever you want if there’s not adequate coverage those days (for examples others already approved for time off before your request). I’ve been in my field for over 30 years and still request time off for approval, so it’s normal for me. So it can really depend on where you work.

      1. PotatoRock*

        Yeah, I think the coverage-needed vs no-coverage-needed is the biggest differentiator. And depending on your projects, even a “no coverage” job can need some kind of coverage if you’re out for eg. 3 weeks, which is why the longer the time you’ll be out, the more likely I am to run it by my manager before requesting officially.

    8. Learn ALL the things?*

      A lot of this is dependent on what type of job you have. I’m currently in an office job where most of our deadlines are pretty arbitrary and moveable, so I can just send the dates I need off to my boss as a heads up for her to put in her calendar to remember I’ll be out. But my previous job was customer facing and it required a certain amount of coverage at all times, so that did have more of an element of asking permission, because I didn’t have access to everybody’s schedules weeks or months in advance.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      Like many of the other commenters, I advise of my plans. I don’t really ask. But I also explain how my work will be covered (e.g., Fergus will handle my projects while I am out) and the boss to let me know if there are any issues.

    10. Cordelia*

      I’m in the UK public sector and we have clear annual leave policies in our organisation. We make requests, it is not guaranteed. Because we need a certain amount of coverage, a leave request might be declined if too many people are already off at that time. We’d generally work it out as a team though – I’d check with my coworkers whether they were planning to have e.g. the first 2 weeks of August off before I booked any trips. Our policy clearly says not to confirm travel or pay anything until leave has been confirmed. I know this is a very different working environment to yours, but I have never considered it as “playing games” or not being treated as an adult. It’s just how the system works.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Same here. We’re generally expected to have arranged it between ourselves before we formally request it from our line manager, but yeah, in coverage roles it’s part and parcel of collaboration.

        Sure, it’s part of compensation, but there’s a point where you need to be thinking about when the best time to take it off is. I just made up a planner to allow the team I gofer for to see when their colleagues have leave booked and for their holiday to be visible to others.

    11. arbitraryname*

      This depends on the requirements of the job, but I’d say I look at it more as a conversation or negotiation than a request or a statement.

      At my current job, which is heavily dependent on coverage, I check the calendar before requesting, especially if it’s around the holidays. If there’s a reason to doubt that I’d be able to take leave, I go and discuss the situation with the office manager before I put in a formal request.

      Assuming your office manager is a reasonable person, that’s a pretty standard “little game.” If you’re already arranging your own coverage, I’d assume the message wasn’t about you, unless your office manager is fond of power trips. Many workplaces don’t require people to arrange coverage for themselves, so I’d guess some of your coworkers are just announcing they’re taking leave at incredibly inconvenient times, with no coverage plan in place.

    12. Donkey Hotey*

      My current job is the first where I’ve informed rather than requested. My boss specifically said, “I’m not your mom.”

      1. Skippy*

        I had a longtime boss who got me out of the habit of asking for time off. Now I tell my bosses, and I tell my direct reports to do the same for me.

    13. talos*

      My manager gets upset when I ask, because it implies he might not approve it…and he always would!

    14. AlwaysRequest*

      I’ve always requested it because being told no was common at early jobs. How formally I do this depends on the job/boss (it’s mostly pro forma with my current boss but I’ve worked at many places where I needed to justify it by saying I’d be losing time/over the max if I didn’t take it and I’ve had one place where they agreed to let me accrue over the max because they kept denying vacation requests).

      For religious holidays and advance full day+ sick time I do tell them, as far in advance as possible, I need the time off and why.

      In most places I’ve worked I was expected to make up scheduled sick time that was a few hours (I could maybe take half) and only take time if I wasn’t able to do that, but in some cases I was expected to provide a tentative schedule of known times to my boss while at others it was entirely at my discretion as long as I either made up the time or took it as sick time.

    15. PotatoRock*

      Is your office manager /your/ manager? I’ve always worked in places where PTO dates are approved by your own manager, not an office manager.

      IME, in non coverage jobs, the expectation is that your manager approves whenever you ask for, unless there’s something really unusual, so the approval system is more like “confirm your manager’s aware you’ll be out”. I’ve also never had a problem telling my manager “hey, I want to take 2 weeks late October, not sure on exact dates, any reason that’s likely to be a problem”? Then I go book the flights and come back with exact dates.

      There’s also a general cultural expectation that the longer the chunk of time off, the further in advance I’ll float it with my manager

    16. Oink*

      Time off work is your entitlement as an employee. But you don’t have a right to unilaterally decide *when* you take that time off. A manager is allowed to veto certain dates because someone else already booked those days off and your team needs coverage or those dates conflict with important deadlines. So when you mention you want to take time off, you’re not requesting permission on whether you’re allowed to take time off or not. You’re making a request for specific days where a manager is allowed to have a say on if that works or not.

      Unless you work in a setting where your absence doesn’t affect anybody else, it’s going to come across as strange to just announce you’re taking X days off.

      1. Spartacus Bagel's Wife*

        ^this! The approval is for specific days, as there may be information that you don’t have that Manager doe

    17. Harrowhark*

      I tell my manager when I’ll be out.

      Actually, I send her an Outlook invite for the days I’ll be out, but mark the time as “Free” so that it shows up on her calendar but doesn’t block her time. That way, if she forgets that I’m going to be out, she can see it on her own calendar without having to look at mine.

      But I’m in a role where I manage my own workload, so I’m the one who would know if it would be a good time to take PTO or not. My manager would have only a vague idea.

    18. kalli*

      I go ‘I have an appointment at this time, is it okay if I work at this other time to make up the hours?’ But I’m casual, so I can change my hours with an hour’s notice just like they can call me in with an hour’s notice, so it’s different to permanent where time off is part of the compensation, as if I do not work I do not get paid. (Or they pay me on the expectation that I’ll make up the time by the end of the next pay period, now that I’ve been there a while and they know if I’m in hospital I’ll be fine to work after a week.)

    19. Irish Teacher.*

      I’m a teacher, so it’s a little bit different, as our holidays are set, so the time off I would have to contact somebody about would be sick leave, doctor’s appointments, going to conferences, that sort of thing.

      For me, it sort of depends on what it is. For things like sick leave or a doctor’s appointment, I just let them know, because obviously, I can’t do much about those things and they can’t really tell me “you can’t be sick today.” When it’s something like a conference though, I ask.

      But teaching is a particular situation here.

  30. Anonymous Educator*

    What do you think about people you know either not that well or very well but only in a social (not professional) context asking you to refer them to a position at your company?

    It always makes me feel a bit weird, because I want to help people out (get their foot in the door), but I’m A) not sure how much weight a referral would carry if I haven’t actually worked with them and B) worried it may reflect badly on me if they do get hired and actually suck as a worked (even if they’re fine to hang out with socially).

    1. Penguin*

      I think it depends on how sophisticated the referral system is and size of the company. At a large company I worked at, I was able to denote whether a referral was a social connection, classmate, or former coworker and I could refer for general entry level jobs. There I felt more comfortable referring social connections and noting as such. But at smaller orgs or if your referral is basically vouching for them, you can skip because you don’t want to chance a bad referral. Or a middle ground, ping the recruiter and mention you know them socially but not professionally and just want to see if someone can human review the application.

    2. Cordelia*

      I wouldn’t do it – I couldn’t speak to the quality of their work, and a referral from me that just says I know them socially wouldn’t carry any weight at all. If I knew a post was coming up that they might be interested in I’d let them know about it, that’s the only thing I could do that would be helpful.

    3. PotatoRock*

      I think you have to figure out what /your/ company means by “refer”. In some, it really is more a personal recommendation, but in others (like my current!) it’s almost more like a “help us recruit” — they want more applications, having your name listed as the referrer just means you get a small bonus if the person is hired

  31. Anon4This*

    I know others have been in similar situations… How/when/if do I tell my manager that I’ve been diagnosed with cancer? This is a VERY new diagnosis and I’m not sure if I will need to take FMLA or not. I meet with the oncologists next week to find out about next steps. She’s very understanding. All I’ve told her so far is that I’ve received an “unfavorable” medical diagnosis and that I may need to request some time off of work, which she’s fine with. Thanks in advance.

    1. Anon4That*

      My own strategy was to disclose ASAP in order to make the benefits process go as smoothly as possible. That choice was partly based in the fact that we’re a union shop, with both more benefits overall, and greater/quirkier bureaucratic requirements. This paid off for me immediately and significantly, reducing my stress at a really horrible time. Unless you have specific reasons to mistrust your supervisor or your org, I would recommend you do the same–treatment is often all-consuming.

      Good luck.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Sorry you are going through it! Sending you good vibes.

      I would wait until you know more from your doctors, how much time off you will need, will you be needing surgery or chemo etc. The way you said an unfavorable medical diagnosis is perfect, I’m totally saving that phrasing, that lets them know you might need more grace at work or be off your game a bit without needing to have the endless cancer repeated conversations, what type, what prognosis, what treatment that everyone means well by but are no less exhausting.

      Lastly, just wanted to share that I work in data science adjacent to cancer research, and there have been a lot of breakthru’s in the last 10 years and more happening all the time. Long term outcomes have improved hugely. Even for the rare 3% type of cancers we’re having a lot more treatment options, drug trials, customized care options. The media doesn’t really cover it much. But I wanted to share the optimism that even though “the big C” is still a terrifying diagnosis to receive, it’s not the end of the road.

      1. Anon4This*

        Thanks. My mom passed from a different type of cancer, but hers was VERY aggressive and it was 1995. I think today, even with it being aggressive, she may have a different prognosis. And a friend of mine said that she knows more people who have beat cancer than haven’t. That has really stuck with me over the last few days. I’ve heard a few things about research, since I know some folks that work in STEM fields, but always good to know that advancements are being made.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      Firstly, I am sorry to hear of your diagnosis.

      Mine was thyroid cancer, which is a little bit different, but I’ll tell you my story for what it’s worth.

      The day after I was diagnosed, I went in to work as normal. The principal was in the foyer, so I just said to her, “can I speak to you in private?” and I told her that I had been diagnosed with thyroid cancer and would keep her informed. I told the head of my department later that day. The head of my department already had an idea because she had seen the plaster on my neck after a biopsy and asked about it and I told her I’d had a cyst tested, so…I think she figured out what that was likely to be.

      I ended up taking just under five weeks off after the operation and once I met my consultant and so on to find out the next steps, I again spoke to the principal and told her I would be getting radio-iodine treatment over the Easter holidays and might need some time off afterwards. The conversation got a bit humorous at this point as she said something like “oh, do you need to avoid risking infection?” and I replied that no, it was just because I would be radioactive and there were restrictions on my being around children which might include our 1st years. (I don’t think it would have. I think the doctors just heard the word “teacher” and were concerned I might be working with 5 year olds, but I never found out for sure because covid hit in a few weeks after that conversation and the radio-iodine treatment was put off until the end of May.)

      I was very lucky, both in that I work in an area where there is very good sick leave (up to six months paid across four years with a cert.) and that my principal, deputy principal and head of department were very supportive. Even though I didn’t give him the full story, the deputy principal responded to my telling him I would need some time off for surgery in the near future with “well, the job comes a long way down the line after your health.”

      Hope your treatment goes well. If it is any reassurance, I am now cancer-free for over four years.

    4. Anon for this one*

      I’ve been there. In your position I would wait to share specifics until after you see your oncologist, since what you need at work will be different if you get surgery, chemo, or both and in which order. In my case I told my boss the specific diagnosis early (as soon as I had a treatment plan) so we could get the ball rolling with HR. Everyone else on the team got the “medical condition requiring regular treatment” line.

      Best of luck!

      1. A Significant Tree*

        Same. I told my manager soon after my formal diagnosis, which came with a guarantee of major surgery at minimum with potential chemo as follow-up, which wouldn’t be determined until several weeks after surgery. I was very fortunate that I did not need chemo after all but still needed four weeks of medical leave for recovery. As it happens, she had a very similar diagnosis years ago and even without the personal connection was a very understanding manager that I could trust.

        Good luck and hopes for a good recovery!

    5. Random Bystander*

      In my case, I told my supervisor pretty much right after the diagnosis, “this is the diagnosis, I’ll be taking [date] off to meet with the oncologist, I’ll know more after that appointment”. Part of this, though, was that she had a big “cameras on” thing for huddles/department meetings (we were remote already when that happened), and I wanted to be able to opt for camera off without being called out (because she did do that, calling out specific co-workers if they didn’t have their cameras on). I said that I was fine to work until I knew more, but didn’t want to be on camera. I also wanted to work up until the day before surgery because honestly what was I going to do in that time but worry about the situation?

      I’m now 3 years post cancer and doing fine.

    6. Rara Avis*

      I met with my principal and department head as soon as I knew my treatment schedule, because I needed to arrange for coverage. (Teacher.) I also let HR know right away, and they advised me about FMLA. (I went on intermittent FMLA — I ended up missing 21 days of work between January and June, due to several rounds of treatment.) Then I had to work with the principal again to leave class early every day for the month of May for radiation. Two things to consider: you are likely to get lots of sympathy and offers of help when people know. (In my case, meals and rides for my child that really helped.) On the other hand, because of the path of treatment wasn’t as straightforward as originally predicted, there was a certain point when I really didn’t feel like answering questions any more. In the end, I ended up being okay with letting lots of colleagues know — I’m still proselytizing for routine mammograms. Best wishes for an effective treatment and smooth sailing — I’m on the other side now, but it turned my life upside down for a good part of this year.

    7. Once too Often*

      Oof. Your instincts are good. Your boss has a heads-up & you don’t know much more yet. While you wait to talk with oncology you can gather info about leave, FMLA, & disability policies at work, & begin planning the initial stages of all this.

      Look at gathering family & friend resources. Who can best help you think through this & figure out questions, steps, your requirements, etc? If you have kids or elders at home, what support is available & on what kind of cycle? Who can go with you to appts as you get initial info, & then for whatever treatment is chosen. Do you have a health care proxy, & who needs to have that paperwork on file? Your employer doesn’t need details beyond what accommodations you need/when you’ll be out, etc. Do you have long term disability available? Make sure you have the contact information where you can find it.

      In my case, I was sent to a surgeon, who reached out to an oncologist (texting each other during my initial appt.) They sent me for biopsies to confirm the imaging. Met the oncologist, who put together a plan & at my next appt handed me a letter pulling me out of work effective the next week. Gave me a few days to activate short term disability & warn work that I’d be gone for an undetermined amount of time. NB: if you need to change doctors, do. Don’t wait. You need a team you trust.

      My protocol included the “trifecta” of chemo, surgery, & radiation. That took about a year, during which I could not work. Saw people in chemo doing their jobs remotely. My chemo made that impossible. We’re all different. I’m now more than a year out, docs are very pleased. My treatment protocol includes post-recovery meds for a few years, so not done with those yet.

      Also, look for formal support. Does your State have any applicable programs or resources? Eg, I have friends in NY on the State’s Medicaid for cancer patients (covers 4-5 different cancers, not all) which means the State is covering ALL their medical bills. There are programs to help with mortgage payments, car payments, etc. Don’t wait to apply. People will want to help. Ask them to do initial research for you, do legwork, babysit, stock your fridge/freezer. (NB: chemo messes with your tastebuds & food tolerances. I ate only asparagus for months.)

      Ask questions here. There are far too many of us with a history of cancer. So many of us are doing well.

      Take care of yourself.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Yeah, just in case it’s the situation for the LW, I want to mention that a colleague of mine was out since early December because of bowel cancer. I think she just had surgery. Obviously, I don’t know the details. She returned just for a couple of days at the end of May before the holidays and will be back properly when we return at the end of August.

        Just because so many of us who have posted here have been lucky enough to be able to return to work very quickly after or even during our treatment and I know I would feel a bit concerned if I ended up having to take more time than most others mentioned taking.

        Hopefully, the LW will recover quickly, but just to say that if they do need months or a year or longer off, that’s not unusual either.

      2. Anon4This*

        I’ll look into it, but I doubt there’s anything here. I’m in a red state that didn’t expand Medicaid at first, the population voted to expand it, and our Governor dragged his heels for over a year on actually doing it. I’d be surprised if there was anything, but you never know. My husband has insurance through his job, so if I had to, I could always switch to his.

    8. Harrowhark*

      Based on my past experience, I wouldn’t say anything more until you know the next steps.

      I had a cancer screening come back positive, and needed to schedule an invasive procedure to confirm. I wanted to be a good little employee, so I told my manager almost immediately (“There’s a pretty good chance I have cancer, but I won’t know more until the surgery confirms it or rules it out.”)

      He didn’t say, “I’m sorry to hear that.” Or “Oh no, how scary. Please keep me updated.”

      Nope.

      He said, “I need you to write out an action plan detailing what you will be doing now to ensure that your medical leave won’t affect the team.”

      I was a new employee; had just graduated college 4 months prior; only one person was more junior than I was; on a team with 20 seasoned professionals. My absence for a week or three months wouldn’t have made even the slightest difference to the team.

      I wish I’d just kept my mouth shut until there was a treatment plan, if necessary. Then I could have just presented him with some concrete details and plans.

      Turns out the cancer screening was a false-positive, thankfully, but wowsers what a way for my manager to respond.

      1. Anon4This*

        I’m sorry he responded like that, though I’ve had managers that would respond like that, so I can’t say I’m surprised. I don’t think my current manager would be like that, but who really knows. I’m glad it turned out to be a false positive.

    9. OtterB*

      Endometrial cancer here. I think I waited until after I met with the oncologist/surgeon to talk to my boss. I told him the diagnosis and that I would be having surgery but the date hadn’t been set yet, would be more than a week but less than a month. I wouldn’t know until after that if I needed radiation or chemo. (I didn’t. Very early catch.) He said he was going to tell our board chair and vice chair (we’re a small nonprofit) but leave it to me what/when to tell coworkers. I sent an email to the staff. The timing was such that I was in a slack part of my annual project cycle. With an unrelated surgery a year and a half later, we had to strategize a little more because it was a busy stretch and I needed coverage that there wasn’t a natural person for.

      Hope everything works out well for you.

  32. theBookworm*

    Looking for advice on negotiating an internal promotion! My boss has been trying to promote me for two review cycles and our HR team is finally on board. We’re working together to rewrite my job description – the promotion is basically a senior version of my current, individual contributor role (Llama Specialist -> Senior Llama specialist).

    Apparently the process is for HR to review and edit the new JD and then map it to a salary band. I’m worried (based on … other experiences) that they’ll lowball me on a salary increase. I love my job and my team, and for (life reasons) I’d really like to stay here. Would love thoughts from the AAM commentariat on:
    What percentage increase you’d expect for this type of promotion – essentially the same job, just at a higher/more experienced/independent level?
    and
    Tips for negotiating an internal raise in a “collaborative” back-and-forth process (especially when I like my boss and know they’re trying to be on my side)?

    1. Penguin*

      I’d do external research about the pay bands for Llama Specialists and Senior Llama Specialists in your area with your years of experience. That way you know if they lowball you, you can say “industry data shows that the market rate for a Senior Llama Specialist with my experience is $XX” and if applicable, “this offer is more in line with the market rate for my existing title”

      You could also remind them of any achievements you have to offer that tie into revenue (if that relates to your role). “In the last year, I was able to deliver $XXX, a % increase from the year prior – and for that reason I feel the [market rate for Senior role] is appropriate and reflects what I have to offer to the team”

      I got a 20%+ raise with internal promotion twice in my life, so hold out hope it’s substantial.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      We can’t give you much useful data without context. Unless you really work with Llamas. Salary varies hugely by job field.

      1. theBookworm*

        Fair enough! My functional area is marketing. Let’s say “Marketing Specialist -> Senior Marketing Specialist”. I also work for a tech company (makes a SAAS-style product) that is an educational nonprofit. I think part of my confusion is because they sometimes operate like a tech company and sometimes like an educational nonprofit – which is to say, I have a tech-y title and job description and feel underpaid based on the overall market for that title.

    3. Random Academic Cog*

      We have detailed job families and position descriptions available that give guidance on what terminology translates into a higher level role. It basically boils down to a higher level of autonomy and exercising sound judgement based on increased expertise. On paper it looks like a semantics game, but in practice there’s usually a real degree of higher functioning in the senior roles.

      In my experience, the salary is directly related to the comparatives (jd/title + years experience vs other staff with similar titles and experience). Whether that equals 5% or 25% may be irrelevant from the HR perspective. We have to get permission from a central government office to go above 15%, but I’ve seen it happen plenty of times.

      I would start with any documentation HR can provide on job titles and salary ranges. One thing I’ve noticed is that different jobs can fall into the same salary range (e.g., administrative manager and program manager), but in reality the PMs average out to make 10% more than the AMs. Our salaries are posted, so it’s easier to get this information, definitely not the case for everyone.

      Also look at other departments and see what titles their senior vs junior staff have. Always easier to give solid suggestions to HR on comparative employees/titles/salary. If you (or your boss) have good relationships with other offices, they might be willing to share job descriptions that you can then edit just enough to be relevant.

    4. kbeers0su*

      It’s hard to know what % increase to expect without knowing specific changes to duties. But if you have access to other internal postings, you could probably nose around a bit and see if you can find the differences in salary bands between regular and senior roles of the same type of work.

      I will say that in some places (and notably everywhere I’ve worked) the amount they will allow for a raise for an internal promotion is limited to a certain % of the previous salary. At once place is was 11% and another 15%. So that might be a question to see if you can ask now, because even if they map the salary and the range is good, you may be limited to the lower end if they have such a rule in place.

    5. Trout 'Waver*

      Do your research and figure out what the new title/job should pay and ask for that. Be prepared to leave when they inevitably lowball you. You improve your negotiating position by improving your BATNA (Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement). Right now your BATNA is to just keep doing the job at the current wage. They know this. This is their desired outcome. Your only leverage is the implied “I’ll leave if you don’t pay me more,” but you’ve taken no steps to leave, so they know you’re not serious about it.

      Also, identify who you’re actually negotiating with. Your boss doesn’t control your salary. Figure out who does (an exec, most likely) and use arguments that are persuasive to them.

      1. theBookworm*

        I hear you! I was actually recruited for another, similar, role that paid 30%+ more and told my boss that (didn’t get an offer or I would have left haha). But now you’re making me wonder if our HR exec (who, you’re right – is controlling the salary aspect) knows that. Sounds like I need to make sure.

    6. But maybe not*

      We have a stated best practice that for every salary band you step up, it’s a 5% increase over your current role. …except the first time I was promoted, I went up two bands and my increase was 26% (without me asking). So when I got promoted again two bands, and they tried to give me the standard 10%, I argued for parity with others in my new paygrade with similar tenure and ended up with 15.6%.

      I work at a state institution where salaries are public so it was easy to do my own comp research, but you may have to check in with co-workers at your new senior level. IMO having internal comps is the best argument for negotiation on an internal promotion.

  33. Penguin*

    My company asked employees to fill out an annual anonymous manager survey. My manager “Alex” specifically asked our team to fill it out. Alex is a micromanager. We all shared similar constructive feedback that increased delegation (or at least, quicker review of tasks) would help our team achieve our goals. This should not come as a surprise: Alex has acknowledged multiple times they hold up work from moving forward.

    Alex scheduled a meeting to go over the feedback with us. My counterparts and I asked HR if a review meeting is standard practice, and HR said they encouraged this. That was reassuring. Still, my counterparts and I have a sinking feeling because based on past poor management behavior, Alex will likely spend that time being defensive about the feedback and putting it back on us.

    Usually my strategy in dealing with my manager has been akin to professional greyrocking. However, I feel like that would squander my one chance a year to have my manager have any sort of accountability. Any tips on how to get through this meeting or respond if Alex starts to retaliate?

    (I am job hunting but it’s tough out there so just looking for how I can deal in the meantime!)

    1. BellaStella*

      Have been going thru this since January. Be vague but call out micro management as a cost to the org. Takes too long to do stuff and cannot achieve targets means X dollars a year are lost.

      If you have kpi numbers being missed quantify this in the survey.

      My Alex is retaliating now against all of us who are not team leads. Not gonna lie, it sucks and HR and her boss are involved.

      Our team got the worst scores across 1000+ people globally. Because of her bad management, favouritism, bullying…. and well here we are still with these issues not being dealt with yet. Hoping soon but am also looking. Keep looking for work. Best wishes!

      1. Penguin*

        Oh man, worst across 1,000 people! I have no idea how my manager fared.

        Fortunately/unfortunately we are surpassing our projections in spite of this micromanagement, because all of us ICs were smart enough to make them factoring in the micromanagement, knowing if we fell short because of Alex it would still be turned around on us.

      2. That Sounds Familiar*

        Everything boiled up and over (with HR and senior leadership involved) and a whole department was still in freefall for almost a year before an incompetent director was removed. Even when everyone agrees on both the problem and the solution, it can be tricky to get rid of bad managers.

    2. Flying Princess Hedgehog*

      Would it make sense for someone from HR to sit in on this meeting?

      One way or another, document, document, document.

      1. Penguin*

        I thought about asking for that but I feared that would get me/us labelled as the problem. It doesn’t seem like HR is sitting in on all these other manager feedback meetings (company of 5,000 people). I was thinking of recording the meeting just in case it’s egregious, even if I don’t turn in the recording but just use it to get an accurate transcription, and it looks like that is legal in the state my manager is in.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      As HR suggested the meeting, ask if they can join. Might help manage Alex’s reaction.

    4. Goddess47*

      Select one (and only one) obvious time Alex messed something up and be factual. “Your handling of X, by doing Y (i.e. holding onto info too long, whatever), made us miss goal Z. As a team, what can we do as a team to not miss goals?” If that sets Alex off, then there is no hope… sorry!

      The minute there is retaliation, go back to HR. You don’t need to put up with that!

      Good luck!

      1. Penguin*

        This was something I was thinking of doing – we have a lot of examples of delays caused by just simply lack of reviewed work. I will come with a little script drafted with the clearest example with some metrics to pull to keep it neutral but factual!

    5. Hillary*

      It sounds like your company doesn’t regularly do pulse surveys?

      I’ve worked places where they are very normal – my last job they were quarterly. Our managers were scored on the % of employees responding in their orgs – senior leaders would get called out if their response rate was low. Overall they did a reasonable job anonymizing the results and discussing them with teams was mandatory.

      Assume positive intent. Maybe Alex will take it as a wake up call, it sounds like they already knows they have a problem. If it goes sideways it just confirms what you already suspected about Alex’s style. Try to just let it go, don’t start arguing.

  34. Rat Racer*

    I have a career strategy question. I’m the chief of staff for an executive at a medium-sized health care startup. Chief of Staff jobs are always eclectic, which is something I love about this role. I’ve never worked for a startup before, and my mentality going in has been “I will do whatever my boss needs me to do to keep the trains running and keep the team happy and cohesive.” I’m only about 9 months in, but what that has meant so far is that I do a little bit of everything (financial analysis, project management, organizational development, technical writing, marketing) but it’s a lot of scut work that no one else wants to do or has time to do. I was hoping that I could somehow parlay this role into a leadership position when and if the startup gets off the ground. But my concern is that I’m positioning myself as a very helpful worker bee, and will be stuck doing scut work forever. I’m in my late 40s – so it’s not like I’m newly hatched in my career. A voice in my head keeps chiding me that if I don’t stake out territory for myself in this company and start acting like an executive, I will never become one. A louder voice in my head just wants to be a team player and do what’s most helpful for everyone around me, and hope my hard work and “can do” attitude will be rewarded. Am I a fool?

    1. Angstrom*

      If you’ve got a good relationship with your boss, talk to them about this! Talk about where you’d like to focus, and where you’d like to be in 1-2-5-10 years.

    2. MsM*

      I always think of chief of staff roles as being at least in part about directing staff, and since you’re doing project management anyway, I’d look at what it would take to start getting these tasks handled by the appropriate departments and work toward that. Does it mean filling open roles, or finding the money to fill them, or just coordinating with other leaders to get people trained and develop processes that make the tasks easier to take on? Or are these in fact tasks that are best suited to someone working in a high-level cross-functional role, and if so, how do you make that case if and when you need to make the case for increased responsibility based on what you’ve been doing?

    3. KitKat*

      I am in a chief-of-staff-ish role (with a different title). Look around for more strategic projects that might suit your skill set! Pitch them to your boss (or ask your boss for ideas if you can’t come up with anything… but really better if you can pitch some ideas). Proving you can lead a more strategic initiative is a great visibility boost and helps break you out of the ‘good at execution’ box that people might have you in.

    4. HonorBox*

      My role is similar. I tell people that you could put a bunch of labeled ping pong balls in a bucket and I’d pick out a handful each day to determine what my plan of action is. I enjoy it immensely. I’ve also been able to “claim” some particular areas in which I can spend more time and be more of an SME. I’d suggest that if you can find a few specific areas that you both enjoy and that need some additional focus, you could start putting a little more emphasis there. That might require your boss to give you an official nod of approval, or in some areas it won’t. But if you can position yourself as a leader in a couple of specific areas, you’re going to get that executive/leadership experience, and at the same time you can still be helpful to those around you too.

  35. MJAnon*

    In my more recent years, I’ve developed a bunch of food sensitivities and I’ve had to go on a low FODMAP diet. One of the food triggers that are the worst for me are fructan-type carbohydrates, which are present in a lot of things, including wheat, garlic, onions, and a lot of veggies. This makes eating out all sorts of complicated and sad. That being said, it’s the kind of thing where I can tolerate low amounts of them and it varies by how cranky my system is that week. Also, you don’t want to cut them out entirely–it will cause you other problems long term.

    So to question: when I was on a very restrictive phase of low FODMAP, I was avoiding all wheat products. While gluten is not the issue, most gluten free products do not have any fructans in them and I’ll default to those. At a department meeting a few months ago, they had breakfast out and I asked about gluten free options. They didn’t have any and they were deeply apologetic. Since then, they’ve made an effort to make sure that there are gluten free options. HOWEVER, I’m a) on a less-restrictive diet after determining I can tolerate wheat more than occasionally, it just can’t be an every meal/everyday thing and b) discovered a cool product that is basically Lactaid for fructans and a few other FODMAP types, which means I can eat a ton more things on special occasions! But…I’m now the Gluten Free Person and suddenly eating wheat on occasion will be incredibly weird at work. We do work breakfasts and lunches more than occasionally. Is it too much information to pre-emptively say “I’ve learned that I can eat some wheat, so don’t worry about the gluten free options anymore?”

    1. Penguin*

      I don’t think it’s too much information but if you’re in a larger org where you’re not the only GF person, you can skate under the radar by sometimes having wheat, and ensuring that the people who need GF have an extra number to ensure sufficient catering. But if they’re special ordering this stuff for just you, you could say no need anymore to save them the effort of accommodating.

    2. DisneyChannelThis*

      Not too much info! Frame it as the good news it is! “Hey good news my doctor has worked out that I don’t need to completely avoid gluten anymore, please don’t feel like we have to get gluten free on my behalf and thanks for working with me these past months to make sure I could have food too!”

      But they might keep the options anyway, in case others want the option to skip the gluten too. Religious, health, regular dieting, personal dislike, there’s dozens of reasons why people might avoid one food group or another.

    3. Panicked*

      As a person who 1. can’t eat gluten and 2. orders food for the office, I think what you’ve planned to say is 100% fine.

    4. Rosie*

      I think your script is fine, but also I feel that FODMAP is becoming much better known and understood, so if you’re willing to say that’s what it is then I think this will be easier and any future similar situations as well. Also, asking for my Mum what is the Lactaid for fructans product?? It sounds amazing!

      1. MJAnon*

        It’s called Fodmate! I can’t recall at the moment, but I don’t think it covers all six of the categories, but it definitely covers lactose, fructans, and GOS. I don’t want to get into the specifics with my coworkers about the exact issue, but that may be me being socially anxious.

        1. Annie*

          Another brand I’ve found in this space is Intoleran. One brand or the other might work better depending on the individual.

    5. MissGirl*

      I’m in this same boat as I slowly adjust to foods again. Last time I ate with my coworkers (fully remote), I couldn’t eat a thing and just talked while I sipped water. In a few weeks I’m going again and my food abilities keep changing. I still default to gluten free at restaurants just because I don’t want to overload. I plan to say I have digestive enzymes that help me digest sensitive foods in small amounts. They don’t think about your food near as much as you do.

    6. Goddess47*

      But you may also be raising that issue for someone who isn’t as comfortable admitting to the problem. While there doesn’t have to be a ton of options, gluten free options are good to have at any time… as well as for yourself, if you’re having a bad day.

      So make it a tad more cautious, “I can eat some wheat but I do need to be aware, so some options are always good to have.”

      Good luck!

  36. spiriferida*

    I’m having a roller coaster of a time at work this past week.

    Due to some promotions and coworkers leaving for new opportunities, all my direct coworkers for the past year have been temps. We just tried to hire one of them, but HR screwed up so badly that this person can’t work with us at all now (visa stuff). I’m really angry about the way she was treated, and frustrated about what it’s going to do to my schedule and workload, despite having a really supportive manager and a good department. HR has been kind of crap (understaffed, underdirected), since I got here, but this was really a line in the sand moment for me.

    I’m due for a grade increase that will ease some of my financial stresses with this job, but I know I could do better salary-wise, even though I’m not likely to do better benefits and compensation-wise. I’m starting to shop around and feel like I’m in a position to be selective, but I’m mourning the feeling that I could have been happy here a few years longer before naturally outgrowing the position, and I’m upset that I’m going to take a lot of institutional knowledge with me when I leave, because HR has undercut the effort my boss has put into rebuilding my work cohort.

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      That sucks and it’s reasonable to grieve what could have been. I’m not in exactly the same situation, but my management has pretty badly fumbled both my team and our customers after an acquisition last year, and I’m real unhappy about it. It didn’t have to go this way, for either of us. But it did, and now the best thing you can do for yourself is take the time, feel your feelings, and then move on. You can’t care more about the team than your employer does. They’ve chosen to keep this HR team even though it’s directly hurting them *and* their employees.

  37. Nicki Name*

    I could use some pointers for a delicate bit of communication. My new grandboss is having skip-level meetings with everyone to get to know us, and so of course he’s going to be asking how things are going with the team in general…

    My boss is a great guy and a decent manager, but clearly spread way too thin by the number of teams and people he’s assigned to manage. My team is going through a challenging time for internal and external reasons, and it’s suffered from him not being able to devote as much attention to it as it needs. I can provide concrete examples of this, but I’m trying to figure out the wording that will best keep the focus on “no person could reasonably be asked to do all this” and not make it sound like I’m saying he’s an inherently bad manager. Any tips?

    1. Angstrom*

      What you just said sounds good.
      You could refer to standard business practices about span of control, optimum number of direct reports, etc.. Make it clear that the scope of his job exceeds business norms.

    2. Penguin*

      “[Manager] is a really great guy and a good manager, but his workload is too much for anyone to reasonable handle given the number of direct reports he has to manage. Anyone in his shoes would benefit from some additional support so he can devote his full attention to [internal and external challenges.”

  38. BellaStella*

    For those searching for work, best of luck to finding something great soon! I applied for one role on Monday, got two rejections this week from roles applied for in May, and got invited to speak at a conference in September. A good week overall. Best of luck to all of you!

    2. A Beth*

      This might be weird but I search for your comments in this post every Friday with my fingers crossed for you. Congrats on the conference, and I hope a great job offer is forthcoming soon!

  39. rrr*

    I have worked really hard to get into a passion career, and have been in my current role 5ish years. I have loved a lot about it but – it’s such a drain for me right now! Mediocre pay, an institution that doesn’t really value us so tons of time goes into just advocating for existing, managing (which I don’t love but which was the only way to move up), a looong commute. I have a toddler, and I feel like I’m not able to be a full human/parent/partner because work is just sapping my energy.

    I just had an interview with another institution that’s blocks from my house. The pay is comparable, the institution is WAY more stable than my current one, and the job is more admin than my current job – it’s not gonna set my world on fire, but the people I interviewed with seemed great, understood my reasons for wanting that type of job, and they loved me (I’ve been invited back for a second interview on a way quicker timeline than they initially gave). Obvious no guarantees, but it’s looking promising.

    I guess I’m just looking for stories of people who “leaned out,” even temporarily. How did it go? How did you talk about it to friends/family? I feel a little like a bad feminist for considering it, but – I want to hang out with my kid and my spouse! I want to have hobbies again! I want to walk to work! I want to put down my work at the end of the day and not think about it! I spent so long grinding to get into the job I have now, but now I’m finding I don’t need/want a job that takes over my identity.

    [yes, my current job is academic librarianship lol]

    1. different seudonym*

      Yo, feminism is not the same thing as succeeding within existing institutions. I hope I don’t sound dismissive when I say that! I mean to validate your choice to live a bread-and-roses life. You’re not betraying any principles by making it more possible to experience joy and love in your daily life.

      I know some academic librarians tangentially, by the way, and I COMPLETELY get how boundaryless and dispiriting the modal job in the field is.

      1. rrr*

        No, that’s exactly what I needed to hear, thank you! It’s the sort of thing I can totally tell other people, but have trouble internalizing for myself haha I really appreciate it!

      2. kbeers0su*

        Agreed! My current role morphed over the four years I’ve been it, from one that should have been high-profile and “important” to one that is somewhat boring and highly administrative. I still have moments where my feminist spirit kicks me and I think “I NEED TO APPLY TO IMPORTANT JOBS WHAT DIFFERENCE AM I MAKING IN THE WORLD” but then I look around and think about the fact that I’m WFH, I can get my kids on and off the bus most days (not a possibility when I had previous “important” jobs) and the commute allows me to do more housework-type stuff between meetings, so my evenings and weekends are much more free for fun stuff. So, I enjoy it for now.

      3. Buffy*

        This is such a succinct way to put the concepts I’ve been turning over in my head – thank you!

      4. Anon for this*

        Amen.

        Your current job sounds pretty exploitative. It’s fine for your Contribution to Feminism to be quitting a job that isn’t treating you well. Vote with your feet!

    2. WheresMyPen*

      I’ve heard people say that feminism doesn’t mean you’re obligated to go against traditional female roles, it just means you have the option to. It’s not automatically anti-feminist to take a job that suits your family life. If you think you’d be happy there, it would give you time and energy to do fun stuff with your family and be less stressed then I’d say go for it! It’s no one’s business but yours and your family’s what you do or why.

      1. rrr*

        Thank you! This is so helpful to hear :) Like I said above – I think I know it intellectually, but it’s hard to remind myself that it’s genuinely OK to do.

    3. Cordelia*

      For me, feminism is about having the choice to live whatever lifestyle you choose. It’s not about having to focus on career to the exclusion of all else. It’s about being able to choose, and to keep choosing and to make different choices at different times, without being judged for it.

    4. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

      I agree with @differentseudonym that “leaning out” is not bad feminism. Feminism is not about working until you’re burned out, it’s about freedom of choice.

      In any case, it honestly doesn’t sound like you’re “leaning out.” You’re taking a job equivalent to what you have now, just one that has a far better commute, is at a more stable institution, and has good coworkers. I’m confident if you tell folks that they’ll instantly understand why you are changing jobs.

      (FWIW, I was an academic librarian for several years before I jumped ship to administration. I understand the perception of librarians being a helping profession where individuals are expected to sacrifice for the good of the cause. I suspect this is where some of your feelings are coming from but I hope you know you’re placing undue burden on yourself. Changing jobs for work/life balance is a perfectly normal, reasonable thing to do.)

    5. Irish Teacher.*

      Not personally, but I am a teacher and have loads of colleagues who have “leaned out” temporarily when they had small children, either by taking career breaks or other leaves or just cutting out all the optional work in teaching, like supervising extra-curricular activities and making it clear that while their children were small, they were not available for responsibilities beyond teaching, planning classes, required meetings, etc.

      Most of these people have been women (though I do know men who prioritised family when their children were small too) but I certainly don’t think they were “bad feminists”. Being feminist doesn’t mean having to prioritise career above all else. It just means believing women should have the same opportunities as men (and I would say it also implies believing men should have the same opportunities to do things like lean out and prioritise children if that is right for them).

      One of the women I know who has a number of small children was talking about how she thinks there is a time when you prioritise things in your career, particularly when you are starting out and a time to move back a bit and prioritise other things and let other people take the lead career wise. This is a little different from your situation as she was talking more about handing on certain extra-curricular activities and other roles of responsibility in the school to younger members of staff who wanted the experience, wanted to grow in their roles while she wanted to step back a bit and leave school directly after her last class.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      You’re not a “bad feminist” for wanting work life balance. When I was in library school (true story), someone said, “Well, we aren’t going into this field for the money.”

      And I turned around and said, “Don’t ever say that. We work for money. No one pays a mortgage with passion.”

      And people in class argued with me that I “should seek a different field” for wanting to be paid.

      Our profession has a serious problem with the idea that it’s just a job (I don’t agree with all the framing of ‘vocational awe’ but some people find that framing helpful.) It’s not bad librarianship or feminism to want to “lean out” or “have a life” or get to spend time with your family or have a hobby.

      And I say all this while also loving my job and loving being a librarian, but if you want to be a librarian and get paid, than admin is the way to go. Anyway, whatever you decide, know that this fellow librarian is rooting for you to find what you need in this field (or another, if that’s where your life ends up going.)

      1. kbeers0su*

        Oh- I like “vocational awe” and am going to use that. 100% the case in my field, as well (also a helping field, also mostly women, also VERY underpaid).

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      There’s nothing unfeminist about wanting to live your full life!

      If you were advocating all women quit immediately, marry the first man they come across and slavishly obey him while having babies until they die, that would be one thing. All you want is a better job! That’s very, very feminist!

    8. Buffy*

      Agreed with everyone else who’s expressed that making choices that will allow you to live your life in the way that makes you happiest is 100% feminist!

      Also, I’m not in your field so maybe the norms are different, but as an outsider I feel like doing a job for 5 years is a perfectly respectable run? I don’t think the average person would consider any of the grinding you did “wasted” after working the job you were aiming for for a good chunk of time. You did the thing, and now you get to freely decide you want a different thing!

  40. Warrior Princess Xena*

    A question on food restrictions.

    I recently made a move to a much smaller office. This office will occasionally order food for employees, but does not do so on a very regular basis. The admin is a delightful person and is very proactive about asking about food restrictions. I have a religious food restriction that means that I functionally eat vegan during two days of the week and also during specific chunks of the year. The catch is that the specific chunks of the year change year over year because they’re based on a lunar calendar and are thus mild chaos.

    Any suggestions for how to make this not a burden for our admin? Do I add it to my Outlook calendar? Eat vegan at work full time? Or just let her know every time she orders food what I can have that day? I don’t want to push the work involved in my choices onto someone else’s shoulders.

    1. Alex*

      I’d probably just let her know that certain days you can only eat vegan, so to be safe, if she doesn’t know specifically, it’s best to order you a vegan option. In other words, I would explain your dietary restrictions honestly, but then give her an easy way to make sure you can eat something.

      1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        I second this. People can get really weird about other people’s diets and might say things they have no business saying if you just say you’re vegan but then they see you eat meat or cheese. Explaining that it’s complex and offering an easy way to include food you can definitely eat every time would be a kindness and head off Mrs. Grundy.

        1. Awkwardness*

          OP could even explain that they cannot have every food (for whatever reason) and instead of always checking with them individually to please get something vegan to be on the safe side.

      2. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

        Upvote Alex’s suggestion.

        This is basically how I handle any inconsistent special request or unofficial accommodation.

        “I sometimes need to X, but I don’t expect you to keep track the details or check with me every time. If it’s easier, you can just assume X as my default.”

    2. Head sheep counter*

      I’d eat vegan at work for food they are providing. The whys aren’t their concern to track or even know about. If you eat wildly differently (outside of work provided food) and its noticed, perhaps that’s worth a further discussion.

    3. Hyaline*

      I would probably do what Alex suggested–you can give her a heads up that you may not eat vegan all the time, but that you do other times for religious reasons so appreciate the vegan option and she can just “treat you like a vegan.” I suppose the other side of the same logic could be that you don’t ask for accommodations of your cyclical food restriction but just don’t partake in office food during these times (an option I only suggest as I fast for religious reasons during various times of the year and explaining what I’m doing, why, and when is more arduous than just…declining lunch and eating my collations at my desk :P) Either way, I do think it’s kind of you and the best course of action to give the admin a simple guideline to follow!

    4. PotatoRock*

      I think it’s ok to give her a schedule, or just a “Xena has religious restrictions, double check with her each time” but I personally would (and have been) “just vegan”

    5. HonorBox*

      You could just say that you eat vegan at certain points in the year and if it isn’t too much of a burden, she could check with you since it isn’t that regularly that they order food. And you could always add, “but if you are ever in doubt or don’t want to check, I’m always fine with just treating me as though I eat vegan only.”

    6. Hillary*

      She sounds wonderful. If you’re ok with explaining the why I’d talk to her about it and ask what works best for her. If you’d rather keep the reason to yourself vegan at work is the way to go.

  41. Jessen*

    Quasi work related question: How do you destress from work when you don’t have the ability to take time off to destress? I’m finding I generally have to save my vacation time for medical appointments because our sick time (10 day a year) isn’t enough for my health issues and myriad of medical appointments. But it’s resulting in me not being able to take time to relax because I need to save my PTO up. So what’s some quick things you can do to relax or deal with work stress when taking days off isn’t an option?

    1. Tradd*

      Long hot baths with a book/eReader, beverage of choice, and snacks. I’ve been doing this for years. Helps immensely.

    2. Penguin*

      For me the biggest thing that has helped my work stress is logging right off at the end of the day and putting work out of my mind, containing it to the 40 hours I am paid for. It has been a big mental shift over the last few years for work to just be a thing I do for money with part of my day and week. Also, stepping away at lunchtime helps. Whether you work remotely or in an office, stepping away from your desk and getting outside if weather permits. Running an errand or reading a paper book away from a screen helps me re-calibrate my stress levels midday, which helps me relax after on nights and weekends.

      If your medical situation permits, I find massage helpful. When I worked in customer service and got yelled at a lot, I would get a monthly massage, usually on a Friday evening to reset my stress before the weekend.

      It’s not perfect but it’s a lot better than I was a few years ago.

    3. CTT*

      Even though I’m exempt, I always take a 30 minute lunch break, ESPECIALLY when things are busy/stressful. Zoning out for half an hour with a sandwich and the crossword really helps me reset.

      1. PotatoRock*

        When the weather is At All cooperative, getting outside for lunch or a quick walk makes a huge difference for me, vs an “inside all day” day

    4. Medium Sized Manager*

      Do you have the ability to give yourself a long weekend every so often without using PTO (ex: 4 10s)? If you can get creative with your schedule, it might help build in some relaxation time without costing PTO.

      Getting a hotel for one night is also nice – I find it so much easier to relax when I am not looking at the chores that need to be done (or that I will have to do chores again in a few days).

      Also, assuming you have already looked into this, but to be safe: check out FMLA if your company is eligible/you are in the US. You may be able to get extra sick time allotted for your chronic medical appointments.

      1. Jessen*

        The big question on FMLA here is more whether I’m able to take it when I don’t have one “big” issue. It’s more a case of having several different medical conditions, each of which requires a couple extra appointments a year, on top of the normal stuff everyone needs. Any one condition would be manageable with the regular sick leave, but a couple at once becomes a problem. But trying to get through the paperwork and figure out who can certify you for FMLA and how is a problem.

        You ever hit the point where you think you’d need FMLA to apply for FMLA?

        1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

          I am newly in this boat but haven’t made the time to learn how it works yet. Intermittent FMLA is thing, but Indonesia know how it has to be documented. I hope this goes well for you!

    5. WheresMyPen*

      Getting away from my computer and outside if possible really helps me. So if I can, I try to get out and go for a walk at lunchtime and/or evening, and then shutting away my computer at weekends so I’m not constantly reminded about work.

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      99% of the vacation days I take are to take care of my preschool-age son when my husband is away for work. Mostly what I try to do is maximize the time I AM free.
      * I don’t shy away from taking a few minutes away from my desk here and there during the day (I work at home nearly all the time) to throw in a load of laundry, prep dinner, etc. That means I don’t have to spend quite as much time in the evenings and on weekends doing that stuff, giving me more time to relax. If you work from home and have the ability to take 10 minutes here and there during the day, I recommend this!
      * I find a quick walk does a lot to make me feel good. On days when my son is in daycare/school, I take a quick walk after his dad leaves to drop him off and before my day starts. Then I take another after eating lunch. When I was pregnant during the pandemic, I would take a short walk in the morning and a long walk right after work. If a walk isn’t something you can do, whatever physical activity you find to be stimulating but not too taxing would be a good substitute.
      * Little rituals. Multi-step skincare. Setting the table nicely for a meal. Making a charcuterie board for dinner on Friday nights and whipping up a fancy cocktail or non-alcoholic equivalent with it. Things that require some focus but have simple enjoyment as their end goal.
      * Hobbies that offer quick gratification. I love knitting, but when I’m near the end of a lace shawl with beads and spend half an hour to do one row, it’s not quite as satisfying. When I want to feel like I’m accomplishing something in a short time, I’m more likely to pull out my old origami paper and fold a model or two.
      * Stretch. During work, get up out of your chair, stretch your body, take some time to focus your eyes somewhere other than your screen.
      * Allow yourself to be lazy sometimes. If you can afford it, order the takeout. Get groceries delivered sometimes. Make enough food when you cook, at least a couple times a week, that you have leftovers to have another time.

    7. Hermione Danger*

      I have a very specific routine I follow when I am done with my workday to cue my brain and body that I am done with work. And then if thoughts about work pop up, I remind myself that I have closed that door for the day and can think about those things the next time I am being paid to think about them.

    8. HonorBox*

      Two suggestions:
      1. Find a way to get away from your desk at lunch a couple of times each week. Even if that means going to sit in your car and listening to music or a podcast while you eat, that break will help.
      2. Exercise. I hesitate in saying this because I completely understand that every form of exercise isn’t feasible for everyone, I find that taking a walk, hopping on my bike, or doing something that gets the endorphins going is really helpful to reset my mind. Even when I’m mentally and physically drained, 30 minutes on a treadmill or throwing around some weights gives me a whole lot of mental clarity and more energy.
      3. Set aside some “open” time each weekend for something you really enjoy. I get that we all have things we need to do during those two “off” days, but if you can find an hour or two for something you really enjoy, not only will that provide stress relief itself but you’ll have that book, that puzzle, that video game, that new cookie recipe to look forward to, too.

    9. Sloanicota*

      Hopefully a job that offers inadequate (to you, at least) PTO offers a good salary to compensate – and if not, well, the market isn’t terrible at the moment, just sayin’ – so I’d say put some of that $$ towards making your life better when you’re off work. Can you send out laundry, pay a housecleaner / dogwalker / personal chef so that when you’re off work, it’s all chill relaxing time? I send my dog to overnight boarding once a month so he gets the wiggles out and I get to sleep in and honestly that makes Saturday feel like a vacation lol. Second, can you block off some recharge time on your calendar during the workday?

      1. Jessen*

        A large part of why I’m staying is that this job has significantly above average PTO, as well as allowing me to work from home full time (which minimizes some of what I’d otherwise have to take off. Plus the health insurance is great. Unfortunately some chronic health issues just aren’t great with a 40 hour a week job no matter what the benefits are.

  42. Reed Weird (they/them)*

    I have yet another question about “can I put this on my resume?” I’m starting to become more active in the community theater scene in my city, and my latest role is stage manager. For those unfamiliar, I help run rehearsals, herd the creative cats, take copious notes on blocking and other decisions, and coordinate the tech and actors during the show. It’s essentially project managing the whole show, and it’s intense! I’m hoping to move into project management as a career, but I don’t have a ton of project management experience in my “real job”. Could I put stage manager on my resume, and should it be under the “Other” heading? I have this heading already because I coach and maintain equipment for a club sport team at my alma mater.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You can put it under volunteer experience and mention it in your cover letter as well.

      1. KitKat*

        +1

        You should also spell out how it relates to project management, don’t assume anyone knows what the stage manager does!

    2. Reed Weird (they/them)*

      I should specify, I’m not applying for anything related to theater. I prefer to leave that as a hobby!

    3. my cat is prettier than me*

      I think it should go under the “Other” heading. As an actor, I couldn’t do what I do without the crew, and stage managers are absolutely instrumental. I’m not sure I could do what you do!

    4. Ghostlight*

      Hi! Professional SM here. It definitely translates and I know lots of SMs who have transitioned into project management/event management type jobs. I don’t know how to advise putting it on your resume because I’ve never written a non theatre one, but the job is 100% a great example of your abilities to transition into that field!

    5. Griffa*

      You can put it on there, but do so in a way that makes it clear that this is not paid work, such as a volunteer work section. Do not mix it in with actual jobs. You can also use your cover letter to briefly highlight one or two key skills you have developed and utilised in that role, but make sure you are not relying too heavily on this position – you need to show that you realise this isn’t equivalent to a paid role.

  43. Worker Ant*

    I just relocated to the east coast for a new job, and I think I’m having relocation depression. On top of that, I’ve been at my new job for 2 weeks and I feel so stressed! My boss told me to take it slow and just learn and meet people, but at the same time, everyone is running around putting out fires, so I feel the pressure of do something!! Yet I don’t know folks well yet, and I’m still learning processes. My boss also asks for a “what did you learn today” review, and there are some days that it’s just “well… I met this person and read this policy” and it doesn’t feel like enough. I haven’t had any expectations or goals discussed yet either. I’m a lead in my role, but this is the first time I’m not extremely micromanaged, so I feel this strange tug of “be proactive” and “I’m scared I’ll get in trouble” still.

    Also, I don’t know if it’s the east coast, but everyone talks so fast. And move so fast. It’s like rapid fire. I feel like a slowpoke in comparison.

    I’m too afraid to mention I’m getting overwhelmed at times (on day 3, they had me do 5 back to back meetings) and I can’t tell what they want me to do. In my other workplaces, it was highly discouraged to say you were overwhelmed. Is there a professional way to say you’re overwhelmed?

    I’m also reading the first 90 days and trying to get myself out of this funk. Starting in a lead position feels different than starting in my previous positions and on top of being generally sad with moving, I feel a little too stressed out. Any general advice for making it through is appreciated!

    1. Penguin*

      Tell your new manager you’d like to set a meeting to get expectations for where you’ll be in the first 30, 60, 90 days. You can let them know you’re excited to be in the lead role, and you’re looking to get the specific guardrails for what this manager will deem as success. Ask them to be clear what sorts of things are in your scope to make decisions on and when they would like to be looped in. When you have that framework you can refer back to it in the future and alleviate that stress.

      I had a similar experience in the past, and turns out my new manager really did trust me and appreciated me being proactive. But you can ask the “set expectations” questions early on, and it doesn’t look weird. I don’t think you have to say you’re overwhelmed, but say you’re still onboarding and getting the lay of the land. Just start to take a little more action each week than the week before to show progress.

      People from the east coast do talk and walk fast.

      1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        I really like the “guardrails” and “set expectations” language here. Thank you.

      2. Angstrom*

        Of course, if you’re from the east coast, you talk and walk at normal speed. Other people are slower. ;-)

    2. Hlao-roo*

      everyone is running around putting out fires, so I feel the pressure of do something!!

      To keep the fire-fighting analogy: at this point, your coworkers are fire-fighters and you are basically (for now) a “civilian.” Your job as a “civilian” is to get out of the way of the fire-fighters. If you can observe and learn without getting in the way of the fire-fighters, that’s great, but mainly you can remove the expectation (for now) that you’re supposed to be helping put out the fires.

      For the “what did you learn today” reviews: on some days, the answers will probably be along the lines of “met Jane, read policy TPS-001.” You could also incorporate answers along the lines of “I saw how Chris used TPS-001 to check XYZ and make decision A,” even though you read TPS-001 the day before. Learning a policy exists, learning how your coworkers use the policy, and using the policy yourself are all examples of learning! Don’t discount things because they don’t feel “new” enough to count as learning.

      I don’t know where you moved from, but some/most of the talking and moving fast is probably because things are faster on the east coast (to generalize broadly). Some of it may be because your coworkers are comfortable with the subject matter and physical location. Your speech/movement may speed up a bit too when you’ve been there longer.

      Good luck with the transition! Moving and starting a new job is a lot at once, but as someone who’s done it before, it gets better with time.

    3. EngGirl*

      Welcome to the east coast! I would say that we don’t talk fast, everyone else talks slow… but that’s a never ending debate lol.

      First off, breathe, you’re probably doing fine. I’d take some time to talk to your boss and make sure you’re on the right path in your next “what did you learn today” meeting. Don’t try to figure it all out yourself, ask what they want you to focus on.

      Also remember, we are kind not nice over here. If we come across as abrupt and sometimes rude it’s probably a cultural thing. However if you need help ask for it, and odds are it will be given in spades! Especially because you just moved! If you want to see some east coast hospitality go in on Monday and ask where the best Italian/Mexican/Sandwich place is. You’ll have about 5-10 suggestions and a lively debate complete with people calling other people’s choices trash within about 2 minutes. It’s how we show love.

      1. Harrowhark*

        My favorite example of this is the man who spoke no English and who couldn’t figure out which train to take in NYC. A New Yorker who saw him looking lost stopped to help him. Somehow, he figured out where the man needed to go, took him to the right starting train and, when the doors opened, he ushered the guy in and hollered something like, “Yo! My man here doesn’t speak English but he needs to get to the X Stop to make the Y Connection, and you all are going to make sure he does, right?” And he stepped out of the train car as the doors closed.

        And everyone was like, “Hell, yeah, we are,” and a whole bunch of strangers helped the guy get to his final destination.

      2. noname today*

        Read the posting below re greetings in emails for a similar different take on the same thing :)

    4. Hillary*

      You didn’t say where you moved from, but yes, they talk & move fast on the East Coast compared to a lot of the country. Different paces take time to get accustomed to, it will come.

      They’re probably also more direct than where you came from, sometimes that may feel aggressive. But it’s just how they talk. And you may need to be more direct in your communication to get more involved. I’m from the upper midwest – hints that everyone would understand here aren’t even noticed in New Jersey.

      One thing that’s served me well in that kind of culture is pushing until I find my boundaries. If there are areas where you can contribute now start to lean in there.

    5. Rara Avis*

      I moved the other way — east coast to west — and was told I talked too fast. So that’s definitely a thing.

    6. PotatoRock*

      Oh gosh, I moved to the east coast for school and completely remembering thinking “how do they talk so fast!!” and “why am I always the one blocking everyone on the sidewalk??”. You do get used to it though, now I’m in the midwest and people tell me I need to stop “running” everywhere

  44. Hamster*

    Hello!

    I have something I’d like to get some input on

    I currently have 3 job offers and 1 that I really want but haven’t yet interviewed for. I realize that this is a good problem to have and I never thought I’d be in this position!

    1 – This role is in line with what I was doing in the past. In fact, this is closeby my old firm and one of the owners I met with said he knew a partner from my old firm. I struggled a lot at my old firm and was eventually let go. I did worry about negative references but surprisingly they made an offer. It’s higher than their stated range and they really seemed to like me.

    2 – This is also in public accounting and a small firm.
    This one is unique because they only do part time throughout the year and overtime in the busy season. Their compensation structure was a little confusing for me to grasp. Also there’s been A LOT of back and forth with the recruiter about health insurance – they’re stressing that I take marketplace insurance rather than theirs and I’m getting questions about how much I’m paying etc – I’m just not sure if that’s usual? I’ve never discussed health insurance or benefits prior to accepting the offer in my past jobs.

    3 – This one is actually switching from public to corporate accounting. Big company, but commute is about 1 hour (these other two are 40-45 minutes). Since it’s not public, no busy season. It’s a new position created and I’d be working directly under the director. He seemed really enthusiastic when meeting me and compensation wise this is the best one.

    Finally, there’s another position that I’m extremely interested in and would be my top choice – it’s close to what I’ve been doing and it’s 15 minutes away from my house. I want to hold out for that but I don’t want to lose anything else. It’s through a recruiter and he has been apologetic through the process and I’m willing to wait but I don’t want to burn bridges with any of the other companies.

    1. Geeyourhairsmellsterrific*

      How can you have offers if you haven’t interviewed yet? Something sounds fishy. Aside from that, I’d stay clear of #2 on your list. It’s highly unusual for a company to ask you how much you’re paying for your current health insurance and to encourage you to use the marketplace.

      Best of luck to you on the offer you are still waiting to receive.

      1. Hamster*

        Sorry!
        I have offers from the first 3. Only the last one I have not interviewed for. Sorry for the confusion!

      2. Hamster*

        I did feel the health insurance thing was a bit off. Much of the process is outside of my experience so I wasn’t sure if that’s the norm in certain industries etc.

    2. Random Academic Cog*

      I would take the established position. The one dickering over health insurance is going to cut costs in other problematic areas. The one that’s brand-new is likely to be chaotic, at least for a while. If you enjoy chaos and are pumped about making your own mark, that’s a reasonable option, but understand that it’s as likely to be underwhelming as it is to be overwhelming.

      As far as holding out for a position that hasn’t been offered to you, that’s a risky strategy. You can remain in the running and then make a decision about which option meets your needs if/when it’s offered. But you most likely can’t stall long before the other jobs move to their 2nd choice. And if you take the closer role a month or two into a new job, you will likely be burning a bridge – which is fine. Just acknowledge that, if only to yourself. Good luck!

    3. Tio*

      The second one is a big red flag to me. The health insurance thing is unusual and strange that they’re pushing you to not use theirs. That says they don’t want to pay for your premium, and that would alarm me heavily. Is there cash flow issues, or are they just cheap? Either way, that will likely come out in other ways. I would only take 2 if it were the last option available.

      1 and 3 are both probably fine – I would take 3, personally, but I know an hour commute is hard for a lot of people.

      It wouldn’t be the worst thing ever if you took one of the offers and then canceled, but it might affect your options there in the future.

      1. Hamster*

        Thank you! I feel validated re # 2. Another thing that happened that I only thought of later was that the first thing the owner asked about was how’s my child – nowhere on my resume or with the recruiter did I ever mention having one so it was an assumption on their part. It was Correct but still something that gives me pause.

        I’ve accepted the first one and contacted them. I will be reaching out to the others. For the second one,

        1. Hamster*

          Sorry I hit submit by mistake

          For the second one is it worth bringing up to the recruiter that I’m not comfortable with the level of back and forth regarding health insurance?

          1. Tio*

            If you mean in a feedback as to why you were withdrawing way, you can mention it, but honestly I might not even bother. Whatever is driving them probably isn’t going to hange.

            If you mean in a “Can I say something about it to get them to stop and continue the process without this” way, no, they’ve already shown you how they view it.

    4. Can't Sit Still*

      For future reference, everything about #2 is a red flag. I worked for a similar firm during the Great Recession, because I was desperate. It was bad news, with lots of shenanigans around…well, everything, but especially pay and health insurance. As it turned out, they were constantly being sued, justifiably, by previous employees (and partners!) for all kinds of things, but especially around wages and benefits.

    5. Hillary*

      Personally I’d go for 3 – corporate is a great change of pace compared with public accounting. New position means you get to define the role and the boss sounds good. You’ll have opportunities for exposure and promotion. Higher comp is a win, and for me adding 15 minutes isn’t a dealbreaker. Depending on what you’re doing there’s some business during monthly/quarterly/annual close but nothing compared to the hours of public accounting.

      Unfortunately I wouldn’t expect your first choice to get their act together fast enough.

  45. Despairingly unemployed*

    Resume questions for hiring managers.

    1. There’s conflicting advice about putting your ideal job title on top of your resume, I’ve been told I should put one to give my resume a narrative, show where I want to go/what I want to do. On the one hand, totally, can see how that could be helpful. Practically… job titles mean different things to different places, and isn’t it also constraining? What if I want to apply for a reach role, I don’t want to keep changing it etc. Best to leave it off, mention in the cover letter?

    2. Profile section. I’m usually pretty good at writing, until it comes to writing good things about me (job hunting = my weakness). Alison says to highlight “strengths and experience” but mine is pretty varied and I’m not sure how to best condense it. Look to “dream job” qualifications for inspiration? What are the best ones you’ve seen and what do they do?

    1. Penguin*

      Former HM here:

      1) I never liked an “intended job title” because you applied for this job, and I’m going to review your qualifications for this job, not any other. Save the space.
      2) I get as many data oriented metrics as I can get in. “Achieved $xxx in revenue” / “Generated xx leads per quarter” / “optimized [thing] by xx%” – This will allow you to show your varied strengths and expertise while highlighting the key achievements at every role

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        1) That’s what I was leaning towards, thank you!

        2) Most of my jobs weren’t metrics oriented, and certainly none of them so short context-less. The few that I have (older ones guesstimated) are listed under their roles, would it be too repetitive to shorten them for the profile section? Or stick to strengths without metrics… aghh

    2. KitKat*

      +1 to the other comment.

      Personally as a hiring manager I don’t really care about / read things like profile/bio, ‘seeking’, etc. I tend to skim or skip them. I want your resume to tell me what you’ve done, not what you think you could do. So focus on writing compelling accomplishments for each past position

    3. Statistics Obsessed*

      I have been a hiring manager, and I will say that I personally *love* a summary section that says something about the main thing you do, and if you use a summary section, it should say that you do the kind of work that you are applying for. It’s not an issue if your summary says “Account lead who blah blah” and I’m hiring an account manager, but it would for sure be a problem if your summary starts with “Account lead who blah blah” and I’m hiring a ballerina.

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        A good thing to keep in mind! I think it’s a tad safer with admin but nonetheless, I’ll keep that in mind. Thanks!

    4. Tio*

      another +1 for no “intended job title.” What am I supposed to do with that?

      Look at what things you do fast and without error for strengths. Potential job things are fine if you really don’t have ideas, but make sure it’s actually things you do and are good at.

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      1) I don’t care what someone’s ideal job title is. I’m considering them for the role they applied for. I’d rather hear about what you could bring to the role.
      2) Honestly, I don’t much care if there’s a profile section at all. Show me your accomplishments in your roles in the resume, and relevant skill sets (technology you’re familiar with, certifications, etc.). In your cover letter, you can talk about your strengths and experience and why they’re a good fit for this role.

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        1) Reassuring to hear, thanks!

        2) Oh that reminds me, I had two jobs with the same employer, where I got a title bump for the second one but one achievement is the same (core duties) but repeated, is it better to repeat the bullet point with each year’s metric, or combine them under the latest job and say “X accomplished over 2 years”?

    6. Hiring Mgr*

      It wouldn’t really matter to me either way on #1 – I’m just going to look at your experience anyway regardless of what’s in the headline.

      1. Despairingly unemployed*

        Consensus takes it! Sure glad I can get rid of one headache and simplify. Thanks!

  46. WheresMyPen*

    Is it normal for Americans to reply to emails devoid of social niceties even if you’ve never spoken to someone before? I’m English and work for the UK arm of a US company. Today I emailed a colleague in the US I’d never spoken to before, starting with Dear Jane, I hope you’re well… and ending in Kind regards, but just got back a blunt two sentences answering my question, no hello, no thanks, nothing. I’ve often had emails from US colleagues that don’t include the Dear/Hi or Kind regards, but I find it a bit rude tbh to not include any kind of salutation in a first email with a colleague, and even if we’ve spoken before I find the omission of ‘hi’ and ‘thanks/regards’ a bit odd. Is it me/my Britishness just being sensitive?

    1. WheresMyPen*

      In case it matters I work in publishing, so a moderately relaxed but still professional industry

      1. WestsideStory*

        I’ve been in publishing, internationally, and it’s pretty common in U.S. to get terse responses back to an email. Some of these folks are plain rude; others are young and have never learned the niceties of email exchanges, some few more would consider it beneath them to show concern for a colleague as it’s really a power play on their part. The idea is that they “don’t have time” to do more than answer a question because they are just so, so busy! on their important work.
        It does tell you a lot about their communication style and where they see you/themselves in the hierarchy. Consider it good info for you, going forward.
        The way I dealt with it was to unfailingly use the conventions of whatever country I was working with: “Dear X,” “I hope this finds you well,” “Kindly review,” “Kind regards,” etc. Occasionally, “Best,” or “Cheers,” or “Hello!” as needed.
        There is nothing to be lost by being consistently polite.

    2. ThursdaysGeek*

      Yes, it can be normal. Some people use some salutations, some do not; some end in a thanks or something like that, some do not. It’s pretty common to get a reply to the question with absolutely nothing else in the email. It’s not meant to be rude, it is meant to be expedient.

    3. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

      I work in academia. I will usually use greetings with colleagues I do not interact with frequently to help set the tone. However, if it’s someone who I do email frequently, I’ll sometimes skip the greetings as I figure getting their questions answered quickly is more valuable than waiting until I am able to compose a formal email. This will vary, but I’d say most of my colleague will skip the greetings at least some of the time.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      American here. Definitely don’t start any of my emails with “Dear [fill in first name].” If I’m starting an email to someone, I usually say “Hi, [fill in first name],” though. Once we’re in an email thread, responding back and forth, I may just respond to questions instead of adding formalities.

      1. Cat Admin*

        Agreed. Dear, is a bit formal. I would use Hi, so and so if it’s the first email or two and end with a Cheers, or Thanks, depending on the nature of the email. If we end up having a frequent back and forth I’ll skip it. If it’s with a client though I would never skip it.

      2. kalli*

        Australian here and it’s about the same here (in law), save for one caveat, which is when there’s a formal request or offer that could end up needing to be referenced in an affidavit or is being copied to the client/put on the sender’s file. Then we’ll have a ‘dear Solicitor, please see attached* correspondence from My Boss, kind regards, Admin’ and the actual content will be in PDF attachment in formal writing in business letter format. This can even be a summary of an email exchange that would not look different from an SMS/IM exchange when printed out, but it just looks so much nicer in an affidavit to go ‘on July Xth we made a Calderbank offer to Solicitor for the Applicant in the amount of $5million dollars with $4million for medical expenses outlined in annexure RS-1 and previously referenced, $500k for retraining for an Underwater Basketweaving Masters degree the Applicant requested and provided brochure in annexure RS-5 via cover of their solicitor AS on June Xth in letter at annexure RS-6, and $5ook in exchange for signing a deed of agreement. A copy of our letter of offer is attached and labelled RS-9, and the AS acknowledged receipt by way of email dated July X+4th, a copy of which is attached and labelled RS-10’, without all the intermittent headers and there’s a spot in the format for ‘without prejudice save as to costs’ and it’s expected that it will be in formal legalese and it’s also very clear that it’s an offer and not a suggestion for discussion, etc., whereas if it’s an email going ‘my client has given instructions that I can agree to anything up to $5million’ without the trappings, it’s not always contextually clear that that’s the offer and not information to facilitate a discussion about a resolution.

        Outside of such contexts where the formalities and format do do heavy contextual lifting, first emails on a subject have Hi for people we know and Dear for people we don’t or who are outside our firm, and internal emails responding to something often don’t, but might if it’s a new workday or it’s been a while since the last email, in which case it’s taking the place of ‘good morning fellow coworker, gee it rained a lot last night!’ and isn’t always just email etiquette.

        I tend to roll with it but before dark mode when people would go ‘i responded to your questions in red in your email below’ and the Microsoft HTML red they used as the default red option in the font colour window would strobe on the white and trigger a migraine I would not be happy. Now black/dark mode changes it to light red on dark grey so unless I have to print-preview it doesn’t bother me, but in most of those cases they wouldn’t go > Hi *kalli as an inline response under the salutation and it would rarely turn up in the cover email, often because the entire thing was ‘see below’ or entirely blank, and some people thought I wasn’t happy about that, not because I’d already said to them I preferred they copy-pasted into a doc or used bold or just not that red if it had come up before. (Side note. If I’m sending an email like that now I leave a space for responses and format it with bullets so if they use Outlook it gives them the bullet formatting, and then they don’t change the colour. Hm!)

    5. my cat is prettier than me*

      American here. I always include a greeting and closing in the first email I send, but I tend not to throughout the rest of the chain. I think it’s a bit rude not to include those in the first email.

    6. deesse877*

      My impression is that it’s becoming more common, and that it reflects texting/slack norms migrating into e-mailing. I’m also an academic, and I too would not omit the salutation for a first message, but might loosen up as the thread progressses.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Yes I was definitely called out on slack for saying “Hi Chrissy!” before my message – I mean, obviously the message is for Chrissy, who I just slacked. I think that’s rubbing off into email.

    7. MsM*

      Yeah, it happens. I wouldn’t take it personally. (I also wouldn’t necessarily bother with the “hope you’re well” preface with coworkers. As long as whatever you’re asking for doesn’t presume they can drop everything and get it back to you in five minutes, you’re not being rude if you just get straight down to what you need.)

    8. Peanut Hamper*

      I used to work in manufacturing and it’s fairly typical there. No rudeness, just a million things going on and at least some of them are probably on fire.

    9. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Here’s my perspective on that, as an American.

      I know you’re a colleague, because you’re using the internal email. Ergo, we’re on the same team, I am predisposed to believe what you say, and I know (or at least hope) that we are all rowing in the same direction. When I get right to the point in a response, I am signaling all of that to you – ‘no need to bother with that, I trust you, let’s pitch in and get the job done.’

      I reserve all the how are yous, regards, etc. for customers and others external to the organization – ie, people who I have to keep somewhat at a distance, because their goals are not my goals, and who I need to be extra polite too, because our organizations want something from each other and are naturally in tension.

      1. James K.*

        Here’s my perspective on that, as a Brit.

        I am your colleague and you know this as we are using internal email. I am also a person, and deserve to be treated with a modicum of respect and politeness, which I showed to you by using basic salutations in my email. You, on the other hand, reply to me as if I am your skivvy by barking information and instructions at me without even a basic greeting. You are signalling that you do not have the time or manners to be polite. Now I do not trust you, and I do not want to pitch in and help someone so rude.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Holy cow. Way to completely miss the cross-cultural point. I AM treating you with respect, because I’m not being suspicious of you. I AM treating you with respect, because I’m immediately answering your question and not wasting your time. I AM treating you with respect, because I’m not attempting to use layers of polite language to obfuscate my feelings or caveat my answers, and thus make you question whether or not I mean what I say.

          1. WestsideStory*

            I’m sorry, I have to agree with James K. It’s not “wasting time” to acknowledge another human being in a more human way. It takes a few keystrokes to add a salutation or address a person by their name. Unless you are literally putting out a fire or in the middle of open heart surgery, there is nothing in ANY business that demands the speed of rudeness. Unless being rude is the intent (as it sometimes can be).

            1. WheresMyPen*

              It’s interesting how cultural norms change interpretations, isn’t it? I wouldn’t go as far as James K. in my response, I wasn’t actually offended by my colleague’s lack of niceties, but I find it odd not to include a simple ‘hi’ and it did come across to me as quite direct and brusque. But now that many Americans have weighed in and said it’s normal and shows comfort and familiarity with a co-worker, I will try to keep that in mind in future.

        2. Rebecca*

          The underlying belief you hold is that greetings and small talk are an essential to manners and politeness. Another underlying belief is that lack of greetings and small talk in email is the equivalent of barking information and instructions.
          Those underlying beliefs are neither right nor wrong. They are definitely not universal, and I think you will have better relationships with your co-workers if you take a step back and ask whether you all hold the same beliefs about what constitutes politeness and manners.

        3. Anonymous Educator*

          Maybe the barking is the issue and not the lack of formalities? One can easily reply back without saying “Dear so-and-so” or ending with “kind regards” and not be barking…

        4. Harrowhark*

          Wowsers.

          That’s… some take on a colleague answering your question and being expedient.

          I have *begged* my British and Indian coworkers to not use all the extraneous niceties. Especially not when messaging me in Teams. And especially not if they are going to wait until I respond in kind before they get to the point.

          Them: “Good morning, Harrowhark. I trust your day is going well.”

          Me: [glances at Teams, then gets back to the time-sensitive thing I was doing before they pinged me, assuming there will be more to the message]

          Me: [hours later, just now realizing they never said anything beyond their greeting] “Was there something you needed?”

          Them: [many time zones away from me, responding the next day] “Yes.”

          Me: “Could you please type out what it is you want to ask me?”

          At least in an email they usually get to the reason for contacting me after ensuring that I am well (??).

          I’ll admit that I am totally baffled by “I hope you are well,” because they don’t really want to know or care if I’m *not* well, unless it means there will be a long delay in getting them the info they need, in which case they’ll get my OOO auto-reply.

          Does anyone ever actually reply, “I wish I *were* well, but I think I have food poisoning because I was vomiting all night and wasn’t sure if I was going to be able to work today; thank goodness I work from home and my toilet is nearby”?

          1. GreetingsPrograms*

            Chances are I would never get back to them in this circumstance. If they don’t tell me what they want, I’m not going to realize it unless I need to communicate with them for some reason. The new msg, needs my attention UI is already gone and I didn’t take away an action item, so it’s complete by default.

          2. WheresMyPen*

            It’s funny now I think about it, I include the ‘I hope you’re well’ to sound polite and so I’m not jumping straight into my request, because to me it just comes across as too direct, but with fellow Brits we will often have a ‘I’m fine thanks, enjoying the sun, hope you’re well!’ and build a bit of rapport that way. It’s just so ingrained in us to ask how people are! So the nicety isn’t totally redundant and artificial, but I can see now that to non-Brits it can be seen as totally pointless so maybe I’ll lay off them for a bit and try to train myself to be a bit more direct!

    11. TX_Trucker*

      I work in an unusually formal office by USA standards. I still call my boss Sir. That said, I never use greetings or closings in an email with colleagues. And “regards” or other polite closings from someone I don’t know seems very fake.

    12. Csethiro Ceredin*

      Generally I’d have a greeting in the first email (less formal than Dear – usually ‘Hi’ or ‘Good morning’ or whatever. Like others have said, once we’re down the chain replying I wouldn’t add greetings/signoff unless they did.

      For long term colleagues who I know well, I sometimes don’t write more than whatever the content is, but these are people I know will not care. I’d never do that in a first email exchange with a new person.

      I’m Canadian, if that distinction matters.

    13. Head sheep counter*

      Its a thing and its rude.

      Your version as noted is perhaps overly formal (the Dear) but no Hi, Good morning/day or anything is… rude.

      Signing off is awkward. We assign to much meaning to it (eg if I’m asking you for something – am I sending regards? or preemptively offering thanks???). But at least a name or a something connotating the end of the message is better than nothing.

    14. SocialNiceties*

      It’s pretty common for 1-1 emails, especially if it’s not someone you know. A Hi firstname is also a frequent option.

      Kind regards or similar is rare. It’s very common to say what you need to say and either just add your name or end it there. I’ll often use a “hope this helps” if I’m answering verbose informational questions (how does X work, etc), but often end with just my name. If someone has a formal email signature it’s not uncommon for that to take the place of a name.

      The more pinched I am for time the less likely K am to include any social niceties (you probably already know this, but type stuff).

      Obviously some companies and people may gave different practices/requirements/norms that don’t align with the above.

    15. Tio*

      I always add hi or hello if it’s a first contact email, but sometimes down the chain I might drop them, particularly if someone else does first. But I usually only add in things like “Hope you’re well” or similar pleasantries if it’s someone I don’t reach out to often or first contact, or if I really am trying to make them think highly of me, to be quite honest.

      1. WheresMyPen*

        I think this is close to where I stand. I’ll always start with a Hi Jane, but might use Dear if it’s someone higher than me in the company or someone older. And since I didn’t know this person, I didn’t want to jump straight into my request so used a ‘Hope you’re well’ to acknowledge that I’m coming at her from out of the blue. But in subsequent emails I’d just use a ‘hi’ / ‘thanks’

    16. WantonSeedStitch*

      It seems to be pretty common within this commentariat–I’ve heard a lot of people here say that they don’t feel like it’s necessary to add softening language/small talk. I (American) absolutely prefer to use social niceties, more casual or more formal depending on the relationship with the person. I will generally use a salutation in the first email within a chain, but leave it out after that. “Hi WheresMy Pen, here’s the info you requested. Have a good one!” “Yes, this includes the info from both this year and last year. Let me know if you need anything else!”

    17. Ellis Bell*

      I’m an English teacher in the UK and there are definitely contexts were I would just respond to the question! It doesn’t always have to involve formal letter convention, sometimes emails have brevity were it’s assumed the information is more important. I also see your point about it being a nice to have as part of a first point of contact, but overall you’re overthinking it; there are many ways to include warmth in emails outside of letter writing conversations, and these are (probably?) just internal conversations and information sharing.While I definitely use “kind regards” for something formal/external I would hesitate with a colleague. I also think Dear rather than Hi is a tad too formal in many internal contexts; it reminds me of Raymond Holt signing off his text messages with Yours Sincerely. Only the HR person at the local authority does this at my workplace and it cracks me up every time.

      1. londonedit*

        I’m in publishing in the UK and I agree with all of this. If I’m starting an email conversation with a colleague, I’ll open with ‘Hi Tabitha’ and probably close with ‘Thanks!’ or maybe ‘Best wishes’ if it’s someone I’m less close to. Once we’ve emailed back and forth for a bit in the same conversation, though, I dispense with the greeting and sign-off and just send a brief email saying ‘Great, thanks – could you also see whether the author has an up-to-date photo they can send us? Sally in Marketing mentioned they needed one the other day’ or whatever. I still use ‘thanks’ and ‘would you mind’ and other language like that to make the tone polite and friendly, but there’s no need for formalities all the time.

        With authors and freelancers I’ll usually stick with the casual greeting and sign-off, but I take their lead on how formal to make my email correspondence. No one in my line of work is signing off emails ‘Yours sincerely’, though – ‘Kind regards’ is rare. It’s usually ‘Best wishes’.

        1. WheresMyPen*

          This makes sense, thanks! This is the first full-time office job I’ve had and although I’ve been here 5 years I’m still learning about working relationships, conventions etc, especially with people outside my immediate team. I think I am a person who tends to hedge in many areas of life, not just work, for fear of imposing on people or sounding rude (Hi X, I’m sorry to bother you, hope you don’t mind me messaging, I was wondering if…), so I guess that’s something to think more about and experiment with!

  47. Donkey Hotey*

    This week was my first time sitting on the hiring side of an interview. Wow. Much appreciation to Alison and all for the years of good advice.

    Although I have to say: There’s a line between the standard advice of “apply even if you don’t meet all the criteria” and what I’ve been seeing in the applicant pool, which is “apply even if you don’t meet any of the criteria.” The number one frustration in my job (I’m a technical writer) is that so many people without training think they could do my job.

    1. Random Academic Cog*

      Yes, I’ve seen this as well and it baffles me. If I had an entry-level position, maybe, but we don’t even hire at the entry-level anymore. My field is very specialized and even our entry-level wasn’t “zero relevant experience/education” because they have to understand at least foundational context.

    2. Annie*

      This where screening questions that act as “hard stops” to emphasize what sort of applicant you’re looking for can help, assuming you have the ability to push for that at the application stage.

      Without knowing the specifics of your technical writing job, the questions could be something like, “How many troubleshooting articles have you written?” “How many analyses of X Technical Thing have you written?” “How many sheep shearing machine diagrams have you proofread?”

  48. 28yearslater*

    Hi! I’m looking into becoming an ESOL adult education teacher. The folks I know in the field come from the K-12 setting, but I’m transitioning from higher education. My biggest iffiness about this is, I started a provisional license many years ago and passed the state exam. Apparently that exam is still valid, and I could get a provisional license and look for high school jobs as well. I think I would really like to work with adults. since I had a lot of fun doing job training and college teaching. Has anyone with a similar background successfully made the switch? Does anyone in the adult ed sphere have any advice for my job search? Thanks so much!

    1. Justin*

      I taught adult ESOL for 7 years. Honestly, there’s a lot of jobs. They just… are mostly bad jobs (crappy establishments exploiting students). But those learners need good teachers too.

      I would mostly research the places offering these classes and see which ones are reputable. Then it’ll help you narrow your search. A lot of nonprofits do this sort of thing, which is (not always, but often) a little less sketchy than the diploma mills a lot of English academies can be.

  49. AnonToday*

    Apologies for the repost from last week, I think I posted too late for it to really be seen.

    It’s a forlorn hope, but does anyone in government have examples / best practices / success stories about compelling electeds to be good managers, or at the very least not make disastrous decisions about how the workplace is run?

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Oof. Honestly, by letting things crash and burn in a blaze of glory around them. Is the elected actually the one running the show? Making the day-to-day decisions?

      1. Agnes Grey*

        Our department is about 1/3 electeds and their political staff, who of course come and go, and 2/3 career civil servants who advise, manage meetings, keep records, and generally make things work, and tend to stay for a long time. The electeds rotate being nominal department head, and they mostly delegate the administrative part of it and let the experts manage their work and their staff as they see fit. Every now and then, though, you get someone with Ideas About How Things Should Be, sometimes for purposes of political grandstanding and Making A Point, and they’re… not always good ideas. To be fair, they’re not elected for their managerial skills, nor should they be, but I wish there was better scaffolding to encourage/require them to stay in their lane, or at least keep them from making decisions that torpedo morale and do harm to the overall department’s ability to keep and hire good staff.

  50. Dasein9 (he/him)*

    I was laid off three weeks ago and reached out to my network. One of the bosses at Old Old Job was pleased to hear from me and wanted to talk about a role that would be a very good fit. I responded, but we never set a time up.

    A former colleague let me know a week ago Tuesday that the approvals for 2 new roles have come through and there are multiple people who want me to be one of the new hires. He also mentioned that they’re slammed and understaffed.

    Since then I haven’t heard anything. And I tend to second- and third-guess the more subtle social cues surrounding this stuff.

    Do I reach out just to touch base today or Monday? To which one?
    If so, anyone have help with scripts for that?

    1. Soup In Arms*

      You could respond to both. I don’t think it would hurt to have multiple options.

      For the first one, you could respond with something like “Hi, I wanted to follow up about that role you had mentioned and ask if there was a time you had in mind to meet. I am generally available [insert available times here].” You could also attach your resume if you think that might help.

      For the second, you could respond with something like “Hi, I wanted to follow up about the roles you mentioned the other day. I know you mentioned that the department is slammed and understaffed, so I’ve attached my resume if that might help with speeding things along. If anyone would be able to meet and discuss, I am generally available [insert available times here].”

    2. kalli*

      Yes, but also check their site and any places they might advertise and apply for the roles if you find them. You can include in your cover letter that you initially heard about them from boss/colleague, and let them know you applied, but if their HR likes things done in a particular way they may only be able to go so far as casual/informational with you and you’d need to go through the process anyway.

  51. Tree*

    Prior to my curent job, I’ve always worked for companies that were not dysfunctional. They were not perfect, but were good and fair to employees and interactions were positive. My current job is so dysfunctional and toxic that if it was a reality tv series, no one would believe it is real and I’m looking to get out even though it’s been just under a year.

    I have had two interviews with a company I’d really like to work for. The job seems like it would be a great fit as I have significant experience in the field and worked for many years in a similar role at their biggest client. I’m hopeful I get the job, but really trying not to be overly hopeful.

    Any suggestions to keep my stress in check while I wait for the next communication?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Keep applying for jobs! Working on job applications will eat up time and energy you would otherwise spend stressing about the status of the jobs you interviewed for (and maybe also stressing about the state of your current job/company?).

  52. Soup In Arms*

    My partner has been applying and applying to so many science jobs in our area for months now and he gets phone screened and has ended up with actual interviews for a few, but so far nothing as far as job offers that actually pay more than $20/hr. He’s understandably getting really discouraged.
    Any advice on how best to support him?

    1. CherryBlossom*

      Honestly, that’s a conversation you should have with him! Different people will want different things. But here’s some options you can bring to him:

      -Being a no-job-talk zone. He may not want to keep his mind on the job hunt outside of job hunting time. Keep a list of topics and activities to occupy his mind handy.
      -Being a sounding board. On the flip side, he might want your insights and input on his job hunt. Or he may just want to vent for a bit
      -Be a practice buddy! If he wants to brush up on his interviewing skills, act out a few different interviews. Go over resumes and cover letters too, if he wants help in that area.

      1. Soup In Arms*

        Thanks! I try to do all of the above and try not to bring it up unless he does first most of the time. I have reviewed his resume and made suggestions that I’ve picked up from AAM.

    2. DontNag*

      the number one thing – which you likely already have down – is not to nag about it or make it seem like you expect him to just conjure up a job out of thin air. Job searching takes time and energy and effort and even so a lot of it is pure luck.

      Let your partner bring it up, but let them know you’re willing to talk about either feelings or strategy, but also be prepared to back off, especially on the strategy front, and especially if you haven’t job searches recently.

      1. Soup In Arms*

        I don’t nag him about it. I try not to bring it up unless he does. I am well aware that job searching takes time and the job market is particularly ridiculous right now.

    3. spiriferida*

      CherryBlossom’s suggestions are good for the interpersonal side of things. On the applying side… Is it that he’s applying for jobs over the $20/hour mark and not getting them, or are none of the jobs he can find over that rate?

      If it’s the former, I’d point him towards Alison’s resources and maybe suggest a resume revision and some interview practice. If he’s not finding any jobs that pay more than that, you might suggest he broaden his lens to sciences-adjacent stuff. Or he might need to narrow in on a part of the sciences where his experience best qualifies him and start hunting for higher-level positions there. It might also not hurt to look for an agency or recruiter to work with who will have a better handle on that job market.

      1. Soup In Arms*

        He’s applying to anything he’s remotely qualified for, narrow or broad in the sciences, especially to positions that would pay more than $20/hr. He thinks part of it may be that he doesn’t have a Masters, or that his degree and job experience don’t match up. Any of the ones that he gets actual responses from are around $20/hr, which is not great.

        He gets called by recruiters a lot, and there are a few that he’s got feelers out with to look for positions. Unfortunately some of the recruiters and hiring managers don’t always seem to know what they’re looking for either. He recently had a day where 2 separate recruiters, who were recruiting for different jobs told him that the hiring manager had originally told them “entry-level to a few years experience” and then later went back on that and actually wanted “Masters level with multiple years of experience”.

        I did just go ahead and get Alison’s book to see if there’s anything in there I can use to help him, or to give him to help himself. I have looked at his resume and suggested some possible fixes based on what I’ve seen on AAM, and he takes the suggestions for the most part.

  53. Reading 4Life*

    What are the best books you’ve read about improving yourself, or your career? My team just started a book club and we have read Atomic Habits for the first book. What else would be good to dive into?

    2. Mad Harry Crewe*

      How to Keep House While Drowning – not career related, but a very compassionate book about taking care of yourself, the people around you, and the things that need to get done.

    3. TPS Reporter*

      Switch: How to Change Things When Change is Hard. It’s not exactly self improvement but how to empower yourself and others to embrace change. It’s helpful for jobs where you have to do a lot of influencing.

    4. Tabby Baltimore*

      The No Club: Putting a Stop to Women’s Dead-End Work (by Babcock, Peyser et al.) Also not exactly self-improvement, but helps you recognize when you’re spinning your wheels on work that no cares about and that will not help you get promoted.

  54. CherryBlossom*

    This happened/is happening today, and I am at a loss of how to handle this.

    Long story short, my coworker came in wearing a thin t-shirt and no bra. She is, ahem, larger chested, and our office is on the chillier side, so it is very, very obvious. Uncomfortably so. The thing is, she has a bra in her bag, but since it’s just the two of us, she said “Oh good, then I don’t have to give a f***.”

    I wish she did! Just because it’s only me doesn’t mean I’m not wildly uncomfortable!

    I’m lower than her on the chain, but I feel like I should say something. I am at a loss as to how to phrase “I don’t care if it’s just me here, put a bra on so I don’t have to see that much of you, please!” in a professional manner. (We’re both women if that changes the optics). Help!

    1. CTT*

      Ugh, I was on the “it’s her body, let her exist in it” train of thought until she said that she wasn’t going to put on a bra because it’s just the two of you. I still don’t think you can say anything (I just looked at Alison’s other posts about this and it seems like it’s a management intervention thing only), but explicitly involving you in that decision is so obnoxious.

      1. CherryBlossom*

        I’m also normally on the “it’s her body, let her exist in it” train. Most times I don’t even notice when people aren’t wearing bras. It’s just the thin white t-shirt + no bra combo that makes it so much more…evident.

        But yes, you’re probably right that it’s more of a management issue.

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        Agree that making this decision about what/how much of her body can show based on something about CherryBlossom (vs. someone else) doesn’t sit right with me. If it’s because you’re a woman: disparate treatment based on gender. If it’s because you’re lower than her on the chain: bad use of authority and status. If it’s because you’re not a stakeholder she needs to dress more than casually around, but generally she is allowed to dress this casually in the office (as in, around her peers and HR): you will have to avert your eyes and/or think anthropological research thoughts.

        Even in the last scenario, I still find it bothersome that she used the phrase she used, rather than saying something like “No need to dress up, glad to be comfy today!”

    2. HonorBox*

      This is probably more of a management issue, and you might mention something to your boss at some point. But I don’t think it is out of line to say, “I don’t want to be the fashion police, but could you put on a bra? I’m not comfortable seeing that much of a coworker.”

      Also, what happens if someone else does come in to the office? Another coworker, someone from maintenance, an unexpected visitor?

    3. Head sheep counter*

      That’s so wild. How did she get to the office? Huzzah for being comfortable but… oh… oh my.

    4. Hyaline*

      I may be in the minority, but some things do cross a line of “it’s her body, let her exist in it.” If she was just nipping out in a full coverage sweater a little, well, that happens. If her chest is larger so you see a smidge of cleavage in a blouse, well, that happens, too. VPL? Also a thing that occurs. But a thin t-shirt that shows everything? Ehhh…that’s too much and expecting too much of your coworkers to be cool with it. We do have societal norms of what areas of the human body we expect to see and what we don’t. If you’re not a patron of a nude beach, you don’t expect to see the full contours of someone’s boobs. If someone isn’t putting themself in a situation to see an eyeful, it’s not really fair to force them to have one.

    5. Awkwardness*

      Oh, that’s difficult. Maybe at the end of the day as a friendly request? “The material is your shirt is quite thin and gives away more details then I want to know about a co-worker’s body. Would you mind wearing a bra together with this shirt next time?”

      1. Awkwardness*

        I correct: “The material is your shirt is quite thin and gives away quite some details. Would you mind wearing a bra together with this shirt next time?”

        1. Rebecca*

          Asking someone to wear a bra is also quite personal. I might go with:

          “The material is your shirt is quite thin and gives away quite some details. Would you mind making sure your clothing is a little more concealing?”

  55. To-do lists Forever*

    What’s your thoughts on doing prep/organization type work “on your own time.”

    A co-worker (Sam) recently was talking about struggles she had with a team member and their To-Do lists and how they should be making the To-Do lists on their own time. I think Sam is wildly off base and is letting their frustrations with skill level and work productivity of several new team members lead to claims like this.

    I have so many varied tasks I could not do my job if I did not have a to-do list and I don’t think I should have to work on it before I log in for the day. And I wouldn’t expect any of my team members to do that with their to-do lists, calendar, organizational tool of choice either.

    I think it’s a combo of perhaps an older school of thought, the frustration with the employee’s work and the fact that Sam is not a list person themselves that is leading to statements like this. But maybe I’m off base?

    Any Friday thoughts?

    1. Cordelia*

      Definitely not on your own time. Planning and organising work is part of work. I’d only wonder whether there’s an issue with the way the team member is making and using their lists – if they are doing it in a way that’s taking up a lot of time and actually making them less efficient (I’m harking back to my extremely elaborate colour-coded revision timetables in college!), then Sam could help them find more effective ways of organising their work. But again, still in work time.

    2. Ceanothus*

      Your co-worker is absolutely off base.

      The work of breaking down tasks into items and figuring out what timelines are associated with each is essential work. The people who I worked with early in my career who explicitly allocated time for workload evaluation and planning were the most productive employees and have gone far in the years since.

    3. LizW*

      Sorry, this just broke my Friday brain.

      To Do Lists are part of work and should be done on work time. [Are project planners not supposed to be on the clock when they are creating task lists for projects?]

      Same goes for cleaning.

      1. To-do lists Forever*

        Sorry I broke your brain! But the comment did make me laugh.

        And speaking of cleaning… I really need to find the time (during work hours!) to clean my office.

    4. HonorBox*

      Getting yourself prepared for the work is absolutely part of work. It is one thing to write yourself a couple of notes or send an email to yourself after hours with a reminder, but if it is planning out tasks, it is part of the working process.

      It might be that Sam needs to have a more specific discussion with the team about expectations, because maybe some members aren’t being efficient with their time and preparation, but just because Sam isn’t a list person doesn’t mean that others aren’t and can’t be.

    5. WantonSeedStitch*

      Sam is way off base. Work should be done on work time. If Sam is frustrated with productivity of newer team members, they ought to talk to the person managing those team members–IF it affects their job. If it doesn’t affect their job, they should zip it.

      1. To-do lists Forever*

        Sam is the manager. Definitely frustrated that new hires are working out as hoped and planned and limited by leadership to make corrections.

        I appreciate the responses as I was starting to question myself and my beloved lists even though I know I shouldn’t have.

    6. Rex Libris*

      I’m a manager, and I expect that sort of thing to be work time. Now, if they’re getting so bogged down in making up charts, spreadsheets, color coded priority lists, etc. etc. that it’s affecting their productivity, that’s a different conversation, but one about time management, not about doing unpaid prep work.

    7. Pocket Mouse*

      Sam is wildly off-base, if the remark meant work time vs. non-work time.

      Any chance Sam meant they should not be making to-do lists *while meeting with Sam*? I can see that use of the time spent together rubbing Sam the wrong way, especially if Sam isn’t a to-do list person.

    8. GythaOgden*

      Yup! Sending you all the best, Tradd, and my fingers, toes and eyes are crossed for you that (a) it’s nothing and (b) if it’s not nothing, your employer doesn’t get in your way.

      My husband’s stage IV diagnosis finally helped us get off our asses and redecorate a spare room two years after we moved in together to ensure he did have somewhere to work from home if needed. This was several years before the pandemic — he didn’t live to see it and I have so many dreams about actually explaining what happened to him and him just not believing me about it! — but he didn’t really use it very often, since he was either at work in the office or too sick completely. He was reasonably fit and well over the 2018-19 winter before he went downhill again and we did have a fairly cosy few days with me off from my in-person job and him able to work from home, and we stuck it out at the dining room table together. Now /I/ mainly WFH, I miss that togetherness immensely and have taken up residence in the place that he did all those years ago.

      So yeah totally — starting to think about it at your own end as well as with your employer is a good idea. I found that planning stuff ‘in the event of’ helped ease the anxiety I had and make him more comfortable about being provided for.

      But I’m hoping and praying (if you’ll accept that) that it’s isn’t anything to be worried about or that it can be dealt with in a timely and decisive fashion. You’re a relative newcomer here but you’re part of the AAM crowd and we look out for each other.

      1. Tradd*

        Thank you! This got commented as part of the wrong post but I saw it since I search for my user name.

        So sorry about your husband.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Oh geez I’m sorry. (Same here by the way.)

          Keep us updated. We’re all here for you.

    9. GythaOgden*

      Here’s my Saturday thought: hell to the NO.

      Ok, I often set up early and get going before my official 9am start time, because I don’t like to sitting around for whatever scrap of time there is at that point. I won’t leave something quick and easy to finish at 5pm either. (Not in the US and therefore not subject to the precise clock-in/clock-out regime that accompanies being an hourly worker.) But…if it’s not one of those scenarios, no, I’m not sitting up to do planning/to-do lists on my own volition.

      Where I do see it happening is with executive level colleagues like my parents who both reached the top of their professions, or at least as far as they could go while remaining employees themselves. They did have a more flexible approach on evenings and weekends because some of that actual work leaked over, like my mum was a teacher and often brought marking home, and my dad was regularly browsing his laptop when he held a directorship. That’s the point where taking too much of a narrow viewpoint might hold you back. Some of the people I report to do have stuff to do that keeps them late, but they are senior site managers and thus it does come with
      the territory.

      But when you’re at a more junior level, it wouldn’t be expected for you to do this. Sam should certainly not be suggesting that the employee spends their own time doing this kind of homework themselves.

  56. Volunteer ED*

    Do you have a favorite wordpress calendar plugin? We’re looking for something that pulls data from a google calendar but is visually similar to our website. We don’t need booking or tickets, it’s just to let people know when events are. Ideally the plugin (including the features we need) will be free because our budget is teeny-tiny.

  57. Ceanothus*

    I’m about a month into having a new manager and he’s a bad hire. I’d been keeping the program going for over a year, and my predecessors shared comprehensive notes, but I haven’t been able to share much of this information with him without getting interrupted repeatedly. I’ve emailed him the process documents, but yesterday he indicated he wasn’t aware that his email had a “send” or “search” function — we work remotely but I’m looking at other ways of making them available to him. He schedules multiple multi-hour meetings every day and usually runs at least half an hour over. He has added a review/conceptual phase to literally every project, which would be fine (but maybe a little annoying) if he’d use that opportunity to give direction or set goals instead of telling us about his hobby and career history. 

    I’m about to go on vacation, and there are significant deliverables that need to be finished while I’m gone — from what I can see now, that’s not likely to happen. What’s the calculus on letting the chips fall where they may vs. letting my grandboss know that my boss might need some support with file structures etc. vs. tipping her off as to the entire situation?

      1. Ceanothus*

        Poor phrasing, sorry. He doesn’t know his email has a “sent” folder.

        “Could you send me that email back?”
        “Oh! I didn’t have any edits.”
        “No, I don’t have it, because I sent it.”
        “Oh! It’s not in your ‘sent’ folder?”
        “I don’t have one of those.”
        “… Sure I’ll send that right back!

        1. kbeers0su*

          Uhhhhhhh…isn’t this like a really basic thing? Did his previous workplace not use email? I’m so confused.

          1. Ceanothus*

            It seems like he has used email as infrequently as possible for his entire career.

    2. HonorBox*

      Whoa. Like @Red Reader I’m kind of stuck on not knowing that email has a send option.

      I think part of the best course of action depends on your relationship with your grandboss and also how you might be perceived/caught up should the chips fall while you’re out. If the relationship is good, or even reasonably good, I think I might go to grandboss and express concern about the timeline of the project deliverables. You could share that you’ve struggled to get the new manager up to date because he apparently hasn’t looked at process documents and is spending a great deal of time in multi-hour meetings sharing non-work information. Offer to do what you can before your vacation, but let them know because you don’t want something major falling behind in your absence.

    3. Goddess47*

      Before you leave, make sure to send your manager a ‘this is what needs to be done’ list and make sure you copy someone (even if it has to be grandboss) that can follow up on it.

      But if you have the political capital to talk to grandboss, ask for a one-on-one and keep it factual but that “Manager does not know how to do X, and project Y will be due when I’m away.” Then let grandboss manage it.

      Good luck.

    4. Mad Harry Crewe*

      If you have a good relationship with your grandboss, I would ask for a 1:1 and let them know what’s up. You can say things like –
      – I’m having trouble bringing Newboss up to speed on our projects.
      – Wanted to remind you I’m out on vacation when X and Y are due. I’m concerned that they might get overlooked.

      If not, then chips fall where they may. You can’t care more about the work than they do, and this was their hire choice.

  58. StrayMom*

    My sort-of work related question is about boundaries – and about choosing which hill to die on. My friend of many years, Patsy, and her partner, Willie, own and run a music store, and provide music lessons for students of all ages. Patsy and Willie place interested students in bands, pick out songs for each band’s set, coach the musicians individually and as bands and set up three summertime gigs for the bands to play in front of live audiences, rather than individual recitals. I belong to one of the adult bands, and I love it! My band mates have become great friends, and we have a really good rapport. We’re also growing as musicians and have been planning on performing out on our own, outside of the shows that Sue and Dave have set up for this summer. We had, early on, discussed as a band whether we would add the new songs that we’ve been learning for the summertime gigs to our “solo” set list, but I didn’t feel right about debuting these songs before the music store shows – this is a vehicle for Patsy and Willie to attract new students, to grow their business, and it just felt wrong to me. My band mates all agreed at the time. We have our first “solo” performance coming up this weekend, and were expecting to do only a one-hour set. We have been rehearsing the songs for a few weeks, but we learned only two days ago that our set needs to be 90 minutes long. One of my band mates suggested that we add the new songs to our set to fill the extra time, and I responded, again, that I wasn’t comfortable playing the new songs before debuting them at the music store shows. Another band mate pushed back, saying that the music store shows won’t be held near this area and would attract a different audience. I didn’t say anything more, but am I wrong to be annoyed by this? It was settled (to my mind at least) weeks ago. If I don’t play (and sing) the new songs at this performance, the band will have a short set list and it won’t fill the full 90 minutes, unless we have looong instrumentals, but I’m also torn by my loyalty to Patsy, whom I’ve known since high school, and who has been a really great friend through thick and thin. I’d really appreciate some perspective.

      1. StrayMom*

        I do, but honestly, I know how important these shows are to her for growing her business, and it feels disloyal to even ask. It feels like spoiling the surprise, somehow, if that makes sense.

        1. Ceanothus*

          I don’t play a lot of music, so grain of salt. I think the best advertisement for their business is a band that is having fun and playing well. I don’t know that having the right to hear the first public performance of a piece would be as important as knowing that Patsy could set up a band that could fill a 90 minute set (!!) — with people who are, as you say, great friends — and that more experience performing those pieces might be better in terms of smoothness and logistics.

        2. Warrior Princess Xena*

          “Hey Patsy, I’ve got something to run by you. As you know we’ve got this solo gig coming up in [audience different from the store audience]. We just got told our set has to be longer. Can we include the stuff we’ve worked on with you and shout you out?”

          I’m assuming this is not a situation where Patsy and Willie are *writing* the songs, mind you. I think if they are writing the songs specifically for your group they should be held until the Music Store concerts.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Especially if the audiences are different, could you just ask Patsy her opinion? She may be perfectly fine with it.

    3. MsM*

      Patsy and Willie get approval over what you play at their shows. I don’t think they get a say over what you decide to do on your own. And if they do take issue over your growing independence, I think the conversation needs to be more about thanking them for what they did to get you started and parting ways amicably, not limiting yourselves because this started out purely as a promotional exercise.

    4. Kate B.*

      Do you know whether it’s important to Patsy and Willie that you wait to play the new songs at their shows first? I’m not clear whether you’re going back on an actual agreement/understanding with them or whether you assume they would be hurt (emotionally or in loss of business).

      If people are coming to the music store shows to enjoy a multi-band show with good music, rather than specifically for The StrayMom Band’s world premiere cover of Dancing Queen, I can see this being good advertising for the store and their shows. Would making sure you shout out Patsy and Willie, and encourage the crowd to come to the music store shows, make this feel like a less sneaky decision?

    5. StrayMom*

      Thanks, everyone – “sneaky” is exactly how I was feeling, but a shout-out feels right. As long as we don’t $&%@!

      And if we ever premiere “Dancing Queen”, y’all are invited!

    6. Too Many Tabs Open*

      Are these songs that Patsy wrote for this purpose/songs Patsy commissioned for this purpose? Or are these existing songs that Patsy’s helping people learn to perform?

      If Patsy wrote or commissioned the songs, then I can see why you’re concerned; if she just decided “hey, Electric Teapot’s ‘Missing Camelids’ would be a great song for StrayMom and these other folks to cover,” I’m not sure why you’re feeling iffy about performing them elsewhere. In either case, is there any reason why you haven’t summarized the situation to Patsy and asked how she feels about it? Would she be fine with it if you said during the gig “Thanks to Patsy and Willie and Local Music Store for getting us on this path; you can hear us and other bands there on DATE!”?

      1. StrayMom*

        That is a great suggestion. We’ll definitely do a shout-out (as long as we haven’t messed the bed!).
        My concern comes from the fact that I know firsthand the struggles that Patsy has keeping the store afloat-people come into her shop to try out instruments and then turn around and buy from the manufacturer’s website. It’s a struggle for small, independent dealers to stay solvent, so this program is vital to the survival of her business. Couple that with the fact that they both spend months coaching , it feels like we’ve been collaborating on a book, and revealing the denouement before the book is published. Maybe I’m making too much of this.

    7. Alex*

      I guess I don’t see really the conflict of interest here and how playing the songs would be disloyal to Patsy. I get that you are annoyed that you thought everyone was on the same page and now they aren’t, but I don’t understand the heart of the argument. If different people are watching the shows, what difference does it make if you have played the song publicly before or not, and how would it negatively affect Patsy’s business? It seems to me the more you play, the more you advertise her business!

  59. Tradd*

    Interesting twist on the whole WFH drama with my company I’ve been posting about:

    I go for a biopsy on Tuesday to see if I have uterine cancer. I will request WFH if I have cancer to WFH while recovering from surgery or while undergoing treatment. We will see if they approve it.

    I worked from home for a week while I was out with Covid in January with permission. HR didn’t like it though. I also have written permission from the owners to WFH when sick or roads are bad. I got that a few months after I was out for Covid. They weren’t aware at the time of the push back HR was giving the manager who was dealing with HR while I was out sick. The manager had no problem with me WFH.

    2. Anon for this one*

      Cancer is covered by the ADA and requesting to WFH while you are immunocompromised should be a reasonable accommodation in your case since it is possible for you to WFH.

      Fingers crossed that the biopsy comes back benign!

  60. Blue Gecko*

    My organization/Grandboss has a policy of almost never having managers have 1:1 time with their employees and always having someone else in the room. On our team it’s another individual who has no supervisory authority over me and works closely with the small team but is an a role outside of our reporting structure (think project manager or similar.) Is this weird and should I push back on it? It feels weird to be getting critiques and performance feedback from my manager and having this other colleague present with no role in the meeting but now intimate knowledge of what is in my performance review.

    1. KitKat*

      It is weird. It makes me wonder if there is a problematic history (racism, sexism, harassment) either at your org in general or with your manager in particular. I would discreetly ask around to coworkers – has it always been this way? Do you find it odd? You could then try pushing back as a group, or you may learn that there’s some history here, or that people have complained in the past but it’s never going to change.

      1. Blue Gecko*

        We’re a subdivision of a much larger organization and it is not the norm elsewhere in the org. I do find it odd because this colleague and I sometimes collaborate at the same level.

        1. kbeers0su*

          Given that, if you have a decent contact in HR, maybe pose this to them for their feedback? My concern would be that it’s hard to have open feedback either way (you to boss or boss to you) with a third party in the room. If their concern is wanting someone there as a witness, why not just require that meetings with an evaluation component be done online, with a recording? Or, maybe HR will know that there is a specific reason (like KitKat said) having to do with your specific manager/a complaint against your manager in the past, and this is the “best” way they could think to respond/handle it moving forward.

    2. Goddess47*

      Depending on how nuclear you want to go, insist that the outside person in your review meeting be from HR. That meets the grandboss’ requirements of a third person but loops in HR that such a requirement exists. But you should be allowed to ask for an HR rep, since they may handle the evaluation in the end and, assuming they aren’t in your chain of command, they don’t really care about what is going on.

      Otherwise, think outside the box. Ask for a large meeting room so the person can observe but not listen in. Or bring noise-cancelling headphones to hand to the person, so they cannot hear the discussion. Depending on what kind of political capital you have, make it obvious that you do not want the other person to listen in. If you can get colleagues to do the same, then that might generate the discussion on why this is even a requirement.

      Good luck!

    3. PotatoRock*

      Yes, that’s weird – both the requirement of, essentially, a chaperone, and the implementation (using a random coworker)

      If there’s an actual reason to need an observer, like you’re doing PiP coaching meetings with someone who you expect might sue or something, it would be normal to use HR or your own manager as the 2nd person in the room, not another report

    4. Awkwardness*

      It is not only feedback or critique but also discussing problems or conflict with co-workers or other managers, or confidential information that is not intended for anybody outside your reporting structure.
      Definitely try to get an understanding what this is about.

  61. Cat Admin*

    An earlier post this week had me thinking about unions. I’d be curious to hear other’s thoughts on them. I have worked under a union before and my husband currently does and we’ve had pretty similar experiences with them. I personally, wouldn’t care to work under a union again. In our experiences, pay was less competitive than similar non-union companies, there was zero flexibility, less vacation time, and because everything is strictly seniority based workers who excel and put in a lot of effort don’t get any reward or recognition compared to those who don’t. One thing I did like about working in a union was that there were regular cost of living adjustments. I live in Canada for reference, but I’d be curious to hear why someone would want their company to unionize.

    1. Skippy*

      Since the pandemic a significant number of organizations in my field have unionized, and they’ve been able to negotiate better salaries and benefits across the board. I joined an organization with a union earlier this year, and I make more money, receive better benefits (including a defined benefit pension), and have much better work-life balance. I have no plans to leave until I retire.

      I would also add that my non-union employers didn’t do much to reward top performers, and in those organizations I worked with more than a few people who ascended above the level of their incompetence.

    2. Irish Teacher.*

      I only ever worked one year in a company that didn’t have a union and well, yeah, that company was actively anti-union and also regularly broke labour laws.

      As regards why one would want a union. Main reasons would be workplace safety, higher wages, a say in all decisions and a safety net if there is a crisis. Without teaching unions, educational decisions (in Ireland at least) would probably be made with minimal input from the actual experts on education. The unions can and do push back against terrible decisions made by people who, understandably, as they don’t have any training in the area and may not have been in a school since they were students, know nothing about how children and teens learn or how schools actually work.

      We recently got a pay increase, negotiated by the unions. We did not get our pay cut during the recession, because of the unions (without them, there would likely have been significant cuts). We used to have to wait 4 years to get a permanent contract, which meant that for the first three years, you could be let go at the end of a year for no particular reason. The unions got that reduced to two, so now it is only after your first year that you can be let go.

      I guess the main reason people want their workplace to unionise is because being part of a union means getting a say in your working conditions. Without a union, the company decides. With a union, the company and the employees negotiate and you get a vote on many things.

      But perhaps the main reason I would be wary about working for a company without a union isn’t even the benefits of the union itself. It would be the concern that the company may be discouraging unions and that strikes me as a massive red flag. Why don’t they want employees unionising? Do they not want them having “a seat at the table”? Are they engaging in nefarious practices that they know people would vote to oppose if they were in a union? In my experience, when companies don’t want their employees unionising, they have reasons for that, like wanting to get away with paying less or breaking labour laws.

      I also wouldn’t ever think of it as working under a union. The employees make the union. Union decisions are made by vote.

      1. Cat Admin*

        Very detailed answer! I can understand why a union would make sense in government agencies and teaching, especially. At the time I worked in a union I worked in natural resources as does my husband now. His current union seems to be more of a roadblock if anything, where negotiations were made for a long period of time and since covid and inflation in the last few years, similar companies have increased pay and got better schedules where his company hasn’t and are the lowest paying company in that area, despite being the only one that’s unionized. I work in a completely different industry now where a union wouldn’t be common and have the best benefits, flexibility, and vacation time I’ve ever had. I’ve had some less than great non-union jobs too so I guess a company can be a bad or good one regardless.

        1. linger*

          So the original question is attempting to generalize from one data point, which is risky. Your own case shows that some unions can be dysfunctional. But so can any group of humans. So that is not a general argument against unions, any more than the existence of dysfunctional workplaces is an argument against workplaces.

    3. UnionWoes*

      My father was unemployed for large periods of time near the end of his career because he has a doctorate as well as many years of experience and they could hire two less educated/less experienced people for the money the union required they pay him. He had no flexibility to negotiate or accept a lower pay rate so he could earn money and support us.

      While I understand many unions have done many good things for many workers, they can cause issues for workers too.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        That sounds unlike any union I’ve ever known in 40 years of work. Are unions that different in the USA, or was your dad’s union just a weird exception?

        1. UnionWoes*

          I don’t know, his was my only direct experience with unions. FWIW, while the specific numbers were different, the issue was universal across all five states in which he was licensed to teach (across New England and the mid-Atlantic).

        1. UnionWoes*

          In non-union organizations my dad would have been free to negotiate a lower salary if he wished to do so. He was not allowed to work for less money under the union and the union priced him out of the ranges employers were willing to pay.

    4. nnn*

      Two things spring immediately to mind:

      1. It’s useful to have the people who are good at negotiating with the employer doing the work of negotiating with the employer. In a situation where every individual has to negotiate their own pay, labour conditions, etc., the employer can put a person who is good at that job on their side of the bargaining table. Having a union helps balance that out.

      2. In a unionized environment, I’m never working at cross-purposes to my boss, or my grandboss, or in fact any member of management I ever have cause to deal with. The terms and conditions have been established by other people in another room, and we just operate within them. If there’s an issue that runs up against that or if we disagree about interpretation, we both shrug our shoulders, call in a union rep and labour relations, and let them sort it out. It’s much better for interpersonal relationships!

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Because employers have so much more power than an individual employee. A large group of people normally have a much stronger negotiating position than an individual for pay, sick pay, PTO, working hours, health & safety, larger severance pay, avoiding redundancies etc.
      Alison frequently advises going as a group to higher management to advocate for something. A union is usually a large, organised, powerful group with trained resources to call on.

      I’ve always worked in a environment with big unions (Europe). Most promotions and raises were discussed and approved by the union, but especially after age 21-25 they were on a basis of merit only, not seniority.

      A union should significantly reduce nepotism, classism, ageism, racism etc and set pay according to the work duties, not the ability to negotiate – of course those with privilege or superior negotiating skills resent the loss of their advantage and resent unions for it, but most people, especially women and POC, benefit from a more equal playing field with set pay for set work.

      I found unions push effectively for a safer workplace and don’t allow an employer – or a “free-spirited” employee in a hurry – to disregard safety rules

    6. Wolf*

      Keep in mind that Americans (like myself) have limited-to-nonexistent federal protections for things like parental leave. We only have paid parental leave at my organization because the union bargained for it.

    7. 1LFTW*

      In my experience, my current Union job means better pay, a safer workplace, and protection from retaliation. To your point about “seniority” trumping “excellence” when people are up for promotion, that depends very much on your contract. In my workplace, promotions definitely do not go to whoever’s been there the longest — jobs are posted publicly, and people have to apply.

      Don’t get me wrong, my workplace is dysfunctional as hell. But it would be So. Much. Worse. if we weren’t unionized.

  62. Tio*

    So, our building is being closed for renovations temporarily (about a year) and we’re being shuttled to a new building about ~15 minutes away. For our next team meeting, we had the idea to do a “scavenger hunt” of sorts – take a picture of a spot in or around the building that is a great place to ________. So, for example, a great place to take a break. A great place to get a bite to eat (like a nearby restaurant or somewhere to sit and eat). A place with a great view. They’ll be in the building for about a month before the meeting, so they should hopefully have plenty of time to take pictures and submit them, and then the person who gets the most team votes for great places will get a prize. It’s also opt in, no one has to do it.

    So, what are some suggestions for “A great place to ______” categories?

    1. Ceanothus*

      – have a walking meeting
      – get a cup of coffee
      – have a team lunch
      – have a 1:1 lunch
      – grab something quick to eat between meetings
      – get public transport
      – park a bike
      – park a car
      – take a private phone call
      – eat lunch outside
      – stretch your legs

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      be in nature
      people-watch
      take a phone call
      hide your muddy boots
      store our moving boxes
      put free zucchini from the garden

    3. Ceanothus*

      I didn’t mention it in my post but I think this is a great idea for an ice-breaker!

      also
      – park on a really hot day
      – park on a really wet day

    4. kbeers0su*

      – best tasting water fountain
      – best view of the surrounding area
      – best piece of company artwork
      – best vending machine
      – best place to discreetly do some yoga poses

    6. PropJoe*

      Nicest restroom
      Best restroom if you want peace & quiet
      Most reliable vending machines
      Section of coworkers least likely to eavesdrop
      Best place to take a nap

  63. Ex-librarian*

    Recently applied for a senior analyst position at one of the big IT consulting firms and should be hearing back about an interview soon. In Canada. Would love to hear from folks with experience in the industry about the interview process, compensation, and what to expect in terms of organizational culture.

  64. Procedure Publisher*

    Received a rejection for a job that felt like a good fit for me. This rejection has made me decide I need to do something with my resume. I feel like my resume is wandering mess and is too wordy for someone who is a technical writer. My previous position was more focus on editing and publishing of procedures and that seems to be causing some more issues for me.

    1. KitKat*

      Definitely have a look at Alison’s resources!! Reframing your resume around accomplishments (rather than responsibilities) and swapping in items most relevant to the position you’re applying to have served me very well. FWIW I have reviewed technical writer resumes as a hiring manager and a lot are surprisingly bad!! You can make a huge difference using Alison’s advice and of course a very careful editing eye.

      1. Procedure Publisher*

        So far everything listed on my resume is an accomplishment instead of a responsibility. I might have to dive deep in the archives to see if I can find some things that might help with being to the point. With each accomplishment, I’m always concerned about leaving out a crucial detail that would reduced the hiring manager’s understanding.

        1. 30 years in the Tech Writing Mines*

          You don’t need all the details in your resume. You just need enough to convince the hiring manager to call you in for an interview.

          Being clear and concise is a key skill for all technical writers. Show off those skills in your resume.

  65. Anxious*

    I work with a very difficult person, we will call her C. The only other person in our department is another co-worker, S. C has worked here 20 years, S has been here 7 and I have been here 3. It is a family run business with managers who have no business managing people.

    C has really never been managed from what I can tell. She has a SOUR attitude about a lot of things, barely does her job, but can talk her way out of pretty much anything. When you have managers who are so hands-off and don’t really care to get into the nitty-gritty of WHY your employees aren’t getting along but instead just tell people to essentially shut-up and get over it and they don’t want to hear any more about it.

    Well due to manager K being on vacation I was forced to go to manager S this morning because C did something I could not overlook and when I proved myself right and told C I didn’t appreciate being dismissed when I suggested the thing that would solve the problem and she said she already did that thing but I know she didn’t, she got super defensive and said I do the same thing to her (be dismissive) and I knew if I stood there and tried to talk to her any more that I was going to lose it on a woman who is 30 years my senior and about half my size.

    So that’s when I went to talk to S who knows C has been an issue all these years, but she has never really dealt with it because of the other job functions she focuses on. K is much softer than S and just wants everyone to get along. So do I, but when I was a people manager, I spent a lot of time settling employee disputes and I am so frustrated with how C has been handled in the time I have been here. S is waiting to talk to C because of meetings this morning so this afternoon is when it’s happening, and I am anxious. I am not in the wrong but usually disputes end with both parties getting in trouble, causing people to just ignore big issues with co-workers because they have seen how they have been dealt with in the past. Leaving bad attitudes to fester and grudges to build.

    Yes, I am aware I am describing a super toxic workplace. I am looking for a way out but have several reasons that are keeping me here.

    I’m not necessarily looking for anything, unless you have advice on dealing with super difficult people. Just a vent and releasing nervous energy so I can focus on other tasks.

    1. Goddess47*

      CYA. Whatever happens that you did not do, document… I can see some retaliation coming your way, now that you’ve ‘proved’ that C is not capable.

      And keep applying to anything even semi-reasonable. You’re in a lose-lose situation… sorry.

      Good luck!

    2. Mermaid of the Lunacy*

      I “gray rock” with people like that. Keep all interactions as mundane and boring as possible. And yes….document document document so you don’t take the fall for their problems!

    3. ThatOtherClare*

      You might not be able to leave right now, but I’ve found that setting a date and putting some plans in place is astonishingly helpful when dealing with difficult people. It’s natural to feel resentful and distressed and anxious when you’re trapped in with someone awful, because in a way they become one of your jailers. But when you have plans, means and an approximate timeline for your escape, suddenly they revert to being merely a temporary annoyance in your current environment. Even something like casually looking through the job postings in your area, reading all the ones you think you could do, and then closing the browser window and losing all the tabs can surprise you with how much more resilient you feel the next day. You may not have lifted a single shovelful of metaphorical dirt, but you’ve scoped out some good places to dig, and that does help. Best of luck in your escape!

  66. Glacier*

    For folks who work in the Corporate Social Responsibility / Environmental, Social, and Governance spaces, what is your background and how did you get your start?

    I’m currently a policy director working in affordable housing and homelessness policy for a local government.

    I’m transitioning out of this role soon and would love to learn about companies with active CSR / ESG teams. I looked into Amazon’s Housing Equity Fund, but can’t figure out whether folks are staffed specifically to that effort. I know loads of companies have public policy & government affairs teams — and I’m open to working there — but also hoping to learn more about teams that aim to broaden a company’s community reach.

    Basically, I’m hoping to take my experience with legislative / regulatory analysis and advocacy and help companies get the most bang for their well-intentioned buck.

    Thanks for the help!

    1. MsM*

      Lots of banks and other financial institutions are particularly focused on supporting community housing efforts through their philanthropic and community outreach arms. I’d take a look there and see if you can connect with some of the folks on those teams.

      1. GythaOgden*

        Also any maintenance and facilities companies or organisations. We work in that area as part of the British public healthcare NHS, and most of our CSR opportunities are in practical things like gardening and handyman service for shelters, care homes and other places that serve disadvantaged groups — it’s an extension of what we do on a day to day basis already, a bit like lawyers taking on pro bono clients. We have the experience with sites that overlap between service and residential facilities, and can call on tools and other resources to help out.

        There are several large companies in the UK that we already partner with like Mitie who also have a commitment to public works, so look up any of those names that operate where you are. We are trying to diversify what people can do for their CSR roles that doesn’t conflict with their working life (making it easier for frontline delivery team members to take up opportunities and for people to serve their community in other ways — e.g. hospital catering colleagues serving meals at a shelter or helping at a food bank — and/or after hours to get a time off bonus for having done it when it’s needed rather than it having to be expressly during the working day) but this sort of thing is the bread and butter of our CSR programmes because of the nature of that day job.

  67. Grits McGee*

    Does anyone have advice (or just commiseration) on how to deal with a collaborator who is critical to multiple projects, but is unreliable and/or unresponsive due to legitimate reasons?

    My coworker “Alex” is a nice person, but one of those folks where they’ve always got something happening to them. In the 5 years I’ve known them, they have needed extensive leave for a house fire, multiple serious illnesses (both self and family), multiple deaths, major surgery, jury duty, and personal travel. Alex is the lynch pin for several high risk*/high profile projects I am also a part of. When Alex goes on leave, they do not update their calendar and either do not let stakeholders know they will be OOO or, if Alex does, it’s last minute. When Alex returns from leave, they are too busy for catch ups. This lack of responsiveness has caused issues with projects and has led to uneven workloads across project teams. We have different supervisors- his supervisor will at least tell us if Alex is OOO, but not when they are expected to return.

    For others who have had this experience, how did you escalate your concerns? We are federal employees, so there are limits to what management can require Alex to do in terms of notifying coworkers of their absences, and obviously they can’t (and shouldn’t) force Alex to come in sick or not use leave to deal with family emergencies. Alex must be included in most of the projects we work on together because they are the designated point of contact (eg, they are the agency llama SME, and as such must be included in the Ungulate Committee).

    *By high risk, I mean projects that have legal implications, or potential for major negative national publicity.

    1. kbeers0su*

      It seems like this is a basic case of needing a second-in-command for Alex. Not necessarily because Alex’s life is a hot mess, but because the role that Alex fills is so critical to so many things, and when they’re absent at all, decisions still need to be made.

      So I would raise it to whomever makes the most sense, without blaming Alex. As in “When Alex isn’t available and we need a fairly immediate/immediate response, who is the person designated to make that decision in their place?” Maybe no one has figured out how often this is happening, so be ready with examples of situations (not Alex life situations, but work project situations) where a decision was needed immediately and there was no one other than Alex available to make that decision.

    2. House On The Rock*

      I manage an “Alex” – not quite as extreme, but one of my staff is key to a lot of high level/high priority reports that go up to institutional leaders and their life is always full of churn. I’ve tried to implement good back-ups for them, as well as keeping myself apprised of risks and big points of failure.

      Since you can’t control this yourself, I’d suggest raising it either to your own manager or, perhaps, a project manager whose been involved in Alex’s work. I find that PMs can be a great resource for highlighting institutional dysfunction, while appearing “neutral”. They are empowered to asked project level questions that are really personnel questions – like “since Alex is out without a set return date, how can we move forward with X?” or “we need to highlight project risks in light of our SME being unavailable”.

      The other route to take is to simply ask Alex who their backup is. It’s quite possible that with everything they have going on, they don’t realize just how crucial they are and how their absences are impacting projects. I’ve found that people who are fundamentally good workers experiencing hard times want to keep things running and are willing to put in effort to make that happen.

      Good luck!

    3. Warrior Princess Xena*

      This is a case study for the bus principal, and why running a lean company with no cross training can really result in problems.

      One person should not be a lynch pin for a project with the potential for negative national publicity, let along several projects. Alex needs to have a backup person capable of stepping in, making decisions, and dealing with the results. Also, the part about not updating the calendar is really non-ideal. I get it, life happens and seems to have happened a lot, but baseline coworker respect is letting them know when you’re unavailable and when you’ll be available again. The fact that you’ve included “management cannot force Alex to notify coworkers” suggests to me this is a conversation that’s been had and gone badly.

      What you can escalate to management is that a) not having a key person to sit in on the Ungulate Committee is going to result in the Llama report being late and b) it’s hard to schedule the committee meeting if the Ungulate SME is unavailable and not telling you when they’ll be back. Keep pushing it to management. You do not want to be stuck with the consequences here.

    4. ThatOtherClare*

      When I had to work with an Alex I simply made it my boss and Alex’s boss’ problem. Alex’s boss could sign off on anything Alex could, and sit in on Alex’s meetings. He hated doing so, of course, and I had to remind him a lot, but he was the only one who could implement an alternative solution and he didn’t. I wasn’t paid enough to feel sorry for him, frankly. I didn’t actually have the authority to force him to cover for Alex, but I brought the issue to my boss and grandboss, laid out the issues with the context I had available, offered a few solutions and said “What would you like us to do, any of these or d) none of the above?”. They elected to make it Alex’s boss’ responsibility.

  68. Skippy*

    I’m a manager who is currently hiring for a mid-level position with my organization. We’ve identified our two top candidates, and I asked each of them for a list of three references. I emailed both sets of references on Monday to set up calls.

    Candidate A’s references all got back to me within 24 hours, and I have since talked to all three of them. They had clearly been briefed by the candidate prior to the call and they were all very positive about the candidate.

    None of Candidate B’s references have responded at all.

    Am I wrong to think that this is indicative of a potential problem with Candidate B? I am planning to follow up with them to let them know their references have been unresponsive, but it’s a contrast between the two that I’m finding it tough to ignore.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      It is summer. It’s possible that they are on vacation, or are busy covering for employees that are on vacation.

      I don’t think it’s a potential problem with candidate B, necessarily, but they may not have given their references a heads-up that you might be contacting them. Depending on the industry, it could be that your external emails have been quarantined or marked as spam, and they haven’t checked those folders.

    2. kbeers0su*

      We just got a new security filter, and I’ve had so many important emails get quarantined. Annoying.

      While I know it’s more convenient to set up calls via email first, but maybe try just calling them? Especially if any of the things Peanut Hamper suggested are true, you’ll then have more information to go on as to why these folks aren’t getting back to you. But you could also reach out to the candidate and let them know you haven’t heard back from their references. Hopefully they can either help make the connection or give you more context as to why their folks may not be responding.

    3. Expectations*

      It’s completely unreasonable to expect a 24 hour turnaround time from anyone about anything unless they know and have set aside that time in advance. Further, emails go astray or get lost in full inboxes. At a minimum email a second time before you consider them unresponsive.

    4. House On The Rock*

      I wouldn’t hold that against the candidate! The responsiveness of their references says nothing directly about their qualifications. Now if a reference got back to you and said they were not aware they were a reference, that might say something about their communication or judgement (MIGHT). Also, 24 hours, especially in the middle of summer, isn’t all that long. And keep in mind that many people don’t set of OOO messages to external senders, so they could be on vacation and you don’t know.

      If you have their phone numbers, a quick text explaining who you are and why you are contacting them would be totally fine, but please don’t penalize the applicant over this.

  69. Gullible Basketball*

    I am a technical writer and have been for three years. I consider myself a decent writer although I definitely have weak spots. About four months ago, I got a new boss who has about 25 years of experience under her belt. I was excited to learn from an accomplished professional, but now I’m struggling.

    When I send something to her for edits, she corrects every single thing. As in, if I write, “This device will increase productivity up to 25%” she’ll edit it to say “Productivity will increase up to 25% with this device being used”. It’s like that for every sentence. If I write, “Locations host monthly meetings to ensure regular feedback from stakeholders”, it gets corrected to “Locations hold monthly meetings so that stakeholders can give feedback”. While definitely some of her edits are good, most are incredibly minor. It’s wearing me down, particularly since I end up having to edit her edits to make them understandable or be within the word limit. I don’t know how to address this with her without offending her. Any thoughts?

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Is there any kind of pattern to her changes? The first one makes sense to me (it puts “Productivity” at the front) and the second one moves stakeholders from an object to a subject, but is there anything beyond that?

      You could just ask her why she’s making all these changes by asking about patterns in your own writing. “I’ve noticed to you make a lot of changes to my writing. Are there certain patterns that I tend to overuse or avoid?”

      1. Andromeda*

        I winced at the second version of the productivity sentence — I am also a technical writer but on my team we are very “active voice over everything”.

        I absolutely agree about just asking about your own writing, but the fact that you’re having to edit her edits “to make them understandable” (!!) rings alarm bells. Does she notice that you’ve edited her words again after the docs get published? Have you ever had to explain to her that you couldn’t use X edit because of a word count, and how did she respond?

        Also, does she have a very distinctive writing voice or style? Does your company have a style guide?

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          Yeah, that second version of that sentence seemed really clunky to me, too. I have to wonder about boss’s chops if they think that’s an improvement.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Is there a style guide about your organization’s brand voice? When you were excited to learn from an accomplished professional, this is that… hopefully. She probably should take more time to walk you through what is automatic for her… action first or people first… or even a preference for casual vs. formal voice? If you ask about a style guide or brand voice, rather than make it about all of her edits, it might give you an insight into why.

    3. TechWriterToo*

      Do you have a style guide? If not, suggest the team create one that everyone should follow.

    4. Procedure Publisher*

      Some of the changes seem like something a style guide would help. I would also ask her why she turned a sentence to be written in the passive. That might help reveal her view on this.

  70. Soft clothes for life*

    I started a new job a few months ago and things are going well overall. However, unbeknownst to me when I accepted the position – I took over this role from someone who was moved to a different role against her desire. She is still working at my organization, but is now on on a different team that works frequently with mine. She is not happy about this change, and while she has been very gracious to me, she is angry at my boss and the situation in general. In the midst of all of this, she has been asked to train me. I am getting the sense that she is not training me correctly–or she has some fundamental misunderstandings about certain aspects of the job. I am reaching out to others in the organization to clarify things, but she still views herself as the authority on these matters and sometimes refuses to move forward with her work if she feels mine is not up to her invented standards. I’ve raised this with my boss and other compliance/finance folks, so the technical questions will be resolved. My question for the group is – do you have any advice for me on keeping my interactions with this person collegial and friendly, while sometimes needing to say “the official requirement for X is Y. Please proceed with [your part of the task]”? I don’t want to create more resentment, but I also need to get my work done.

    1. kbeers0su*

      Your manager needs to know, because for all you know coworker is trying to poison the well against you by telling others you’re not doing the job right, they should have never moved coworker out of that job, etc. Something like “Coworker keeps asking me to do ABCD but I was under the impression that my part of the task is just A. Should I be doing BCD, too?” This allows you to get clarification from your manager, while also cluing them in to coworker’s weirdness here. You may even bluntly bring up that you know coworker used to have your role and that coworker is obviously having FEELINGS about it, and see if your manager can give you some advice. Again, this clues manager into the extent of the weirdness, which your manager may not be aware of. For all you know, moving coworker to the new role may have been a final straw, and manager should be in the know in case they want/need to take further action. (Not that I’m advocating for this person being fired but this is all very childish, and unlikely to end without intervention, and you (as a totally new person!) should not be on the receiving end of dealing with this.)

      1. Soft clothes for life*

        Thanks! My boss does know and we discuss what’s going on regularly. He’s helping me track down the definitive policies on things so that my tasks are done according to the actual requirements, not what coworker says they are. (My function is different than my boss’s so he doesn’t – and shouldn’t- always know the answer). The issue is more around soft skills recommendations – since I do need to keep working with her while also making sure my work follows policy, not invented guidelines.

    2. The Unionizer Bunny*

      It’s common (in the U.S. at least) for employers to try to save on payroll costs by hiring an employee new to the workforce (one with lower wage expectations for that point in their career) and ordering the senior employee to train their replacement so the employer can fire that employee. Resentment isn’t an unwarranted response, and I’ve seen many recommendations around sabotaging the employer’s efforts to replace them. I would like to propose a healthier alternative:

      Approach her directly, explain that you’re concerned this is what’s happening, tell her how much you’re being paid, and ask her how much more the company was paying her for the same work. Be open that your intention is to request the same level of pay for the work she was performing, and admit that your boss may decide it’s better to go with the more experienced employee anyway if he can’t save money paying less than the position is worth. If she really was reassigned because of problems complying with what is required by company policy, then your boss will keep you on anyway, once you prove that you care about doing it right. But if she was only planting seeds for later failure to teach her boss a lesson about needing her for the job, then she may feel guilty enough about sabotaging someone who wants to help her that she’ll stop resisting the duty of training you. If she was indeed being paid much more than you, say good things about how skilled she must be and (if you could learn from her) how much more qualified you’d be to apply for the same role in other companies if the boss brought her back to it.

      You might decide the risk of a wage-matching request leading to you being laughed out of the company is too great, or that you don’t like even the possibility of the boss telling you “sorry, we have her so we don’t need you”. But if you don’t at least explore the question of whether this is happening, it could be you in a few years.

      1. Soft clothes for life*

        Thank you for this perspective! She is older than me, though I am not an early career professional. So, there could be an impression that this is what has happened. However, her salary is only negligible higher than mine, and we both know each other’s salaries given our job functions. So saving money not the actual reason for hiring me, and her new role is a very secure one in an essential job function. (There were some aspects of the job that she underperformed in, so roles were redefined, she moved to a role that only requires her strengths, and I am responsible for the other half and some new duties that come with a shift in my team’s priorities. However, I have the title she used to have and she did not appreciate being moved to a new team and losing a link to a program she was very attached to.) Given the age difference, I do think I should be more sensitive to the issues that you raised. Thank you!

        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          You’re welcome! I’m glad to hear the particulars of your situation don’t fit that pattern.

  71. Basement Dweller*

    I’m trying to get my head around the fact that, even though obviously I love working from home – it’s probably not very good for me. I don’t think I’m as productive and I think it’s probably bad for my mood (I live alone so I feel like I’m crawling the walls by 5PM and desperate to go out for a drink with a friend. Thus, I’m drinking too much / gaining weight / spending too much). I just can’t reconceil going back to an office job though! Especially when I hated, hated, HATED our open office/cube set up. People who are hybrid, does it feel like the best of both worlds, or am I likely to still feel stir crazy and lazy (stirlazy?) on the days I’m home?

    1. MissMaple*

      I’ll be honest, we’re hybrid and I still come in everyday. I’m way too much in my own head to sit at home by myself. Being in the office by myself is somehow marginally better and I’m downright thrilled on the days when other people are around. I always considered myself an introvert, but I definitely have the same issues as you with full-time WFH. It helps that I have an office here rather than a corner of my basement at home, but I still came in most of the time when I had a cube.

    2. kbeers0su*

      It sounds like you need to add something to your calendar to get your people fix so you aren’t feeling stir crazy by close of business. I know some folks who eat lunch with coworkers via Teams/whatever platform so they can have that informal chatter during their work day. If your place of work isn’t like that/you don’t have coworkers you’d do that with, maybe add a non-work alternative. I’ve added walking my dog into my days, because I go on a trail that has good foot traffic with other dog owners/dogs to talk to. And I also sometimes do errands (post office, groceries, etc.) just to have people interactions so I don’t feel the need to word vomit my entire day to my partner when he walks in the door.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      I work hybrid – at least one day a week in office, sometimes more if I have events going on. It works for me because I find 100% WFH quite isolating and because I have my team meeting on the day I go in, so it’s generally fairly productive. (Also, my husband is retired so he’s at home a lot and if I don’t go into the office we get sick of tbe sight of each other.)

      It helps that I don’t have a gruelling commute and that my office does a relatively good job of hot-desking. The (few) things that annoy me about the office annoy me less if I’m not there all the time and the things about working from home annoy me less too! So I would say to give hybrid a try and if you hate it, you can always go back to working from home.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      How far away are you from the office? Are you close enough that going in for half-days would make sense?

      I work an occasional-hybrid schedule (no set in-office/at-home days, I work mostly in the office and occasionally work a day or half-day at home). I like a half-day in each location because being in the office for a few hours takes care of the “climbing the walls” feeling I start to get when I work a full day (or several full days in a row) from home. My commute is about 15-20 min, for context, so I can easily get to/from work on my lunch break.

    5. DisneyChannelThis*

      I love hybrid, I didn’t like full time WFH. When I was full time WFH, nothing got done, chores nor work, it was overwhelming and days blurred together. Hybrid days at home now seem like the wonderful things everyone else describes, I get to have my fancy coffee, my private bathroom, my hot lunch, I get so many chores done in little 5-10min breaks throughout the day, my evening feels more relaxing cause the chores are done. Hybrid I feel like I have structure again. I push meetings to my in office days, I save deep focus work for WFH days. I wear dress pants enough that yoga pants feel fun again. I also get more recognition at work, I think people are more patient when they realize you are a human not just a reply in slack if you know what I mean.

    6. Margali*

      I love hybrid — I work at home one day, go to the office for 4. I need to be visible for some of my job, but I’ve been working at home on Thursdays for a long time now, so people know to text or email me on those days. Two days at home would be even better, but I’ll take what I can get. I did NOT like 100% WFH, would definitely be stirlazy (great term!) if I had to be.

    7. Generic Name*

      Uh honestly, it doesn’t sound like you “obviously” love working from home at all! I know folks who comment on here are heavily in the WFH FOREVERRR camp, but not everyone loves it. I have the option to work from home a couple days a week, but I choose to come into the office every day. I love my family, but they are too distracting, even with a private office on a separate floor from the rest of the house. I like being able to come to work and focus on work. I get just enough people interaction during the workday that I’m not going stircrazy. I think it depends on your personality whether or not a hybrid role will still leave you feeling that way on your WFH days. I think a lot of companies would welcome a person who wanted to be in-office full time, even if they are officially hybrid. Hybrid working has become so popular that I think most companies feel like they have to offer it in order to attract quality candidates, even if they’d prefer staff to be in-office.

    8. Jules the First*

      I hate hate hate hybrid (though not quite as much as full time in-office with open plan). I also live alone (well, with a 3 year old, who is a fantastic snuggler but not very helpful on the adult conversation front) and find that the sweet spot for wfh is to be intentional about planning my day. I try to sprinkle meetings across the day, including at least one “social” session with a colleague or a fellow wfh-er, and have a routine about meals and breaks. I make time to get outdoors every day, even if it is literally opening the front door for five minutes and doing some deep breathing. Having several spots in the house where I *can* work also helps – when I’m getting stirlazy I can switch up my spot and get a little boost. I also try to keep a very short list of non-work things to do during the day, which helps me keep the balance between working and dealing with life admin.

    9. lemon*

      I”m hybrid (in the office one day a week), live alone, and I’ve also struggled with the isolation of WFH. I don’t like to go into the office more often because it’s a longish commute and usually, no one is even there so it feels like a waste. So, I try to work from a coffee shop near my house a couple of days a week. I’ll usually take care of email and messages in the morning and then head to a coffee shop in the afternoon to do more focus work. I’ve also experimented a couple of times with putting together an intentional co-working day with non-work folks. I found it a little distracting, but might try it again during times when work is lighter.

      On non-coffee shop days, I still try to make sure I find reasons to get outside the house. I’ll go for a walk, run errands on my lunch break, sit in a park and read for a bit, go out for lunch, etc. it’s helped my mental health a lot.

    10. Soft clothes for life*

      I love hybrid! I’m in office two days per week. At a previous job it was three, which was ok, but I like two more. It’s the best of both worlds – I get in-person time, structure, and a sense of urgency in the office. At home, I can concentrate on “focus work” and enjoy my feline coworkers. The caveat is my commute is reasonable and my supervisor and teammates are responsive on remote days. If one or both of those things weren’t true, it would skew the equation.

  72. Anon this time*

    Thank you to everyone who suggested questions to ask potential future coworkers last week. They were impressed with my questions and when asked, told the hiring manager that I’d be great for the role! Of course there’s no guarantee I’ll get it, but I sure hope so. Because much like Nanni of the complaint to Ea-nasir, I also feel that I’m being treated with contempt.

  73. MissMaple*

    I don’t have a particular question, just need to vent a bit! I feel like I’ve been 5 years late to everything my whole career, and maybe life? Maybe it’s just being an elder millennial or maybe it’s like this for everyone, but it seems like I’ve missed the best part of project/being at that particular site at every job I’ve been at by 5 year, the good economy by 5 years, housing market – 5 years, blag. Right now our management is talking about how we need to restructure and how it’s never again going to be like the “glory years” 10 years ago (I got here 7 years ago). Oof.

    1. A perfectly normal-size space bird*

      I’m hovering between the last genX and earliest millennial and I can relate. I manage to come in on things a few years after it would have been advantageous. I was like “Three hundred bucks for one bitcoin? No thanks!” I put off college for a while and after I went back, I managed to graduate right into the recession. I also put off starting at the company I’m at now because I thought it was safer to stay in something stable than make a big change. Then I find out if I had started then, I would have been grandfathered in with some great benefits no longer available. And I recently learned our current contract will expire this year and everyone who has 5+ years automatically get moved to the next contract while everyone else might be furloughed. I was supposed to start when the pandemic shut business down so I will have just short of five years when the contract expires.

      The only thing I lucked out in was our house. We managed to buy it right before the prices surged from the pandemic. I’m sure the seller wishes they’d waited a few months to sell but I’m glad for once I didn’t hesitate.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        I mean, or you might have moved out of that stable job and been hit by a drunk driver crossing the street to your current employer, or not made a personal connection that will be vital to your career in ten years, or, or, or…. It’s easy to look back and point to things that appear to be mistakes with the benefit of hindsight, but remember that you have also passed through the “good” side of many forks in the trousers of time. You’re just not kicking yourself over those decisions, because you take them for granted (aside from the house).

  74. Statistics Obsessed*

    About a hundred years ago, I saw a stat that was like “x% of adults had never heard of their current job when they were children.” It came to mind recently, and I’ve been trying to find it everywhere! I have also been completely unsuccessful.

    Questions:
    1) Had you heard of your current job when you were a child?
    1a) What is your job?
    1b) Roughly how old are you?
    2) Do you have any idea where I could find this stat?

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      1. Yes, yes, I had heard of my current job as a child. Well, sort of. The role I am currently in didn’t really exist back then, but I obviously knew of teachers and even of learning support teachers, though their role was far more restricted back then and just about helping students with basic literacy.

      1a. I am a teacher.

      1b. I am in my early 40s.

    2. Also Stats Obsessed*

      1) No, but to be fair, my mom led me to believe being a librarian wasn’t a real job, just something that retired old ladies do because their bored, which was supported by the retired old ladies running our tiny county library.

      1a) Academic librarian

      1b) 45

      2) You’d think I could find this given my job and skillset but I’ve also been finding a lack of info on that. Mostly what I’ve found is related to things like what kids wanted to be when they grew up or the percentage of future jobs that don’t exist now. This now has me intrigued.

      1. Statistics Obsessed*

        The future jobs that don’t exist now thing is wild too – most of those stats link back to places that don’t exist anymore that I’m largely not finding on the wayback machine either!

    3. Choggy*

      Never heard of it, as most of it was not in existence when I was a child (in the IT field), and I absolutely never thought I would be making my living in computers. My mother was a programmer back in the 60s/70s/80s and what she did looked downright awful and boring to me. I’m now the only child of hers, have 4 siblings, who went into the field. I’m not a programmer, but do some development work, primarily provide high level technical support and involved in technical project management.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      1) Nope.
      1a) Prospect Research – researching current and potential donors to a nonprofit organization
      1b) mid-40s
      2) A few quick searches isn’t turning it up!

    5. Lily Rowan*

      1) I hadn’t heard of my current job when I was 40!
      1a) I do a very obscure piece of fundraising back-office work
      1b) 50
      2) No, sorry.

      1. Statistics Obsessed*

        I think that’s really common! There are so many jobs, and most of them feel Secret!

      2. WantonSeedStitch*

        Ooh, now I’m curious, as a fundraising back-office person. Is this a role I’ve heard of, or no?

      2. Tammy 2*

        Richard Scarry books were exactly what I was thinking of before I clicked on that link!

        I don’t mind not having one of those jobs but I am really disappointed about my pickle car.

      3. Irish Teacher.*

        I am actually one of that 4-8%. I was planning to be a teacher from the age of about 7 or 8. But yeah, definitely not the norm.

    7. Anonabonbon*

      1. No. It existed but is pretty niche, and looked a lot different at that time.
      1a. Records Manager
      1b. Mid-40s
      2. No, but I did hear something interesting recently about obsolete jobs jobs being taken off of the list the SSA uses to determine whether someone applying for disability is qualified to do something else. You can find more by searching “jobs removed from social security list”

      No word on whether llama groomer or chocolate teapot specialist are on the list.

      1. Statistics Obsessed*

        I heard about that! I haven’t dug into that yet, but I’m glad to see they’re making updates. So many people get their cases denied because they hypothetically could have gotten a job that does not exist anymore.

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Mostly yes. I am a medical coder (well, manager of medical coders) and my mom was a medical coder and biller since I was tiny. (Now she’s retired and I’m 43.) But she always worked in small practice offices, and I’ve always worked in big academic hospital organizations, so there’s significant differences in our experience.

    9. Generic Name*

      1) My exact job title in the industry I’m working in? No, but apparently my senior year of high school during a career counselling session with the school counselors, I carefully spelled out “Environmental Biologist” as my desired career path….which leads to…..
      1a) My BS is in biology and my MS is in environmental science, and I’ve built my career working with both degrees in government, industry, consulting, and now construction.
      1b) 45

    10. Girasol*

      1) No. 2) IT – data networking and project management. 3) Retired. 4) Sorry, no.

      My favorite answer to the old interview question “Where do you see yourself in five years?” was “Doing something I’ve never even heard about yet. Technology moves too fast to plan today for five years ahead.”

    12. Definitely Statistics Obsessed*

      1) No, even though I would have loved it if I’d head of it in high school. I think this is such a shame. There are tons of great people out there that are probably missing out on a job they would love and excel at if only they knew it existed. It was clear from high school that I loved statistics but no one told me about it as a career path until I was late in college.

      1a) I am a statistician LOL
      1b) Late 30s.

      2) I’m wondering if there’s an academic publication with a relevant stat, though I’m not sure of how you’d find it. Definitely suspect it’s a low percentage given that most people can only name a few jobs.

      1. Statistics Obsessed*

        You are for sure more statistics obsessed than I am! But I love having data to support my claims, and I keep telling people there are for sure great jobs out there for them that they just have never heard of.

    13. Alex*

      Definitely not specifically! Because it wasn’t really a thing. My job depends heavily on the internet, which…wasn’t a thing people had until I was about 12, and didn’t have much use for most people until I was about 16.

      I’m 43.

    14. allathian*

      1) Yes, one of my dad’s cousins was a translator (mainly literary fiction), although I never dreamed of becoming one as a kid.
      1a) In-house translator at a governmental agency in a bilingual country.
      1b) Early 50s.
      2) No idea, although I’ve seen similar stats.

    15. Nightengale*

      My current job arguably didn’t exist when I was a child, definitely not in it’s current form. I’m in an extremely niche branch of pediatrics. (Fewer than 800 of us in the US niche)
      There were people forming the field in the 80s and it became an official field in 1999. I was born in 1976. In 1999, I was a young adult about to apply to medical school and my mother found a newspaper article on the creation of the field and sent it to me.

      Amusingly, if it had existed I might have seen a specialist in it myself as a child.

  75. LeSigh*

    I’m part of an employee resource group (ERG) at work for people with disabilities. We’re planning a one-off book club event in a few months and have selected a book (which was read and approved by multiple people, including the ERG lead). One person helping plan the book club is now saying the author’s discussion of intersectionality is “ganging up” on cis, straight, white men and doesn’t believe that group of people experiences privilege. (We also have ERGs for queer, black, and female employees.)

    I messaged her privately to politely push back on her statements (along the lines of “hey, this is what I heard you say, but this is what I think the author meant”), at which point she opted to drop out of the planning group. Now the ERG lead wants us to discuss this “controversy” and is thinking about switching to a different book altogether. Is this worth spending any political capital on? FWIW I am in a different office than everyone involved, and all communication has been remote.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Yes this is worth pushing back on because cishet white guys get all sorts of privilege and it’s ridiculous that one person’s shitty opinion/agenda is derailing this. (FWIW, I don’t think this person should be on the ERG with opinions like that.)

      1. LeSigh*

        Thanks for your reply. I guess I’ve been focused on being polite & professional, and you’re right that this is something to push back on. We’ll see how this meeting goes next week!

    2. One HR Opinion*

      One of the major points of an ERG is to provide a place where employees can discuss topics in a safe environment that might otherwise be shut down. I obviously don’t know the specific book you are referring to, but intersectionality is a very important topic in the disability space. Regardless of whether cis, straight, white men experience privileges or not, it is very clear that there are inherent struggles in having a disability (visible or invisible), being of a certain race, socioeconomic status, etc.

      I say keep the book and discuss the “controversy” as part of it.

    3. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Author John Scalzi wrote an article in 2012 called ‘Straight white male- the lowest difficulty setting there is’ which compares choosing a character in an online game with being a particular sort of person in the real world. He has done an updated version as well. I have often used it as a step off point for straight white males in drawing their attention to other people’s experiences being different to their own, for structural reasons, and not just because the other people are lazy, stupid, etc.
      My vote would be yes, spend your political capital – and postpone the chosen book, and start off by discussing Scalzi’s article instead. Sounds like discussing intersectionality is not on your fellow planner’s radar at this stage. We all start somewhere, maybe the article will nudge her a little.

      https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

    4. Nightengale*

      Disabled person here who does a lot of DEI and intersectionality work. . . yes spend some capitol if you can. Disability rights work has a history of being very white in particular and it’s a good move that you are reading a book that addresses that. Any chance you could share which book?

      I’d suggest a message to the lead that implies that of course the lead supports recognizing the importance of intersectionality in anti-ableist initiatives. . .

  76. Anonagain4This*

    I have a couple questions for knowledgeable people about using Azure Virtual Desktop (AVD) when working remotely. My company implemented a global device policy that requires people at my level and above to only access company resources via AVD for the purpose of document security. Understandable, though as rollout has progressed, we’ve discovered the day to day working of it is actually hindering productivity significantly. It’s very slow, prone to crashing at random, glitches with multiple monitors (required with my role), and will boot us if there’s a slight power surge (like the AC compressor kicks on and the lights dim for a fraction of a second and nothing else is affected, even the VPN stays connected but AVD goes into panic mode and disconnects). It took me six hours to do a task last week that usually takes less than an hour because of all of this.

    We’ve all been giving feedback, though most of us aren’t confident that anything will be done and we’ll be stuck with this for the foreseeable future. What I want to know is can the company tell which of us is and is not using AVD during work hours? And is it likely that they would be monitoring employee use of it?

    See, here’s the twist: employees in the lowest role aren’t granted access to the same apps as those above them, but they still have to have access to our proprietary browser-based software, MS Outlook, helpdesk app, and payroll and benefits apps. So those are still accessible outside AVD. Those employees below me also have access to MS Teams and MS Office apps but are not required to use AVD so both of those are also accessible outside AVD. And all those apps accessible to the employees in levels below me are everything I need to do 99% of my job. Which is why right now, I’m connected to MS Teams and using MS Office without using AVD because I have a task I want to get done for Monday and I’d rather get it done today than have to spend half the weekend on it.

    For the 1% of my job where doing it in AVD isn’t an issue, I don’t mind, though it is irritating to constantly drop out of a four hour meeting because the AC kicked on or a monitor glitch happened because I accidentally clicked in the wrong spot in a window. But that 99% is more important and everyone hates how AVD has hampered them.

    Second twist: We often bounce between roles so next month I might be on a new project where I’m at a lower role and not required to use AVD and later be back to the role I am now.

    They say they’re doing this for document security reasons. Which I understand. Though we are all finding it odd on the security front because 1) everything is still accessible outside of AVD, 2) transferring documents that were saved locally can only be done by emailing them to ourselves because using flash drives has been disabled for AVD, and 3) we’re still required to keep backup copies locally because they wipe our AVD desktop and files nightly.

    So I am really torn because I want to continue do my job well and efficiently but I don’t want to be in violation of the global device policy and those two things are so far, mutually exclusive.

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I don’t have an answer about their ability to monitor, but from a security standpoint this all sounds very silly.

      Two strategy ideas for you:
      – if you get in trouble for what you’re doing right now, play dumb – Oh, I thought that since Teams and whatnot are available outside AWD and other employees can only access that way, that I was ok to access that way also. So sorry, mea culpa, won’t do it again!

      – and then, work to rule. Task takes six hours? Bummer, you only have two hours left of your day. Couldn’t get something done by end of day Friday? Too bad, you have weekend plans, you’ll just have to pick it up on Monday. DO NOT put in extra time to compensate for their shitty technology or policies.

    2. Rick Tq*

      Try connecting your computer and modem thru a good quality UPS. That should reduce the power issues and will also protect your computer in the long run. It sounds like any pilot project using AVD didn’t include enough actual users to expose these kinds of issues…

      1. Anonagain4This*

        They actually are both connected to separate UPS boxes. Once the company changed their policy to not paying hourly wages to people when they had power outages, I made a point of setting everything up to ensure I could do my job during a power outage for as long as I needed. That’s why it’s so maddening. Nothing else will get interrupted.

        The only thing I can figure is when the compressor kicks on (or we get power blinks during a storm that also does this) the fraction of a second between the power dimming and the UPS kicking in is enough to trigger AVD to shut down. Since I never lose connections with other software and even my monitors stay on, the way they set up AVD on the company’s network must be so sensitive that it can’t handle the blip. Others have reported the same problem so I know it’s not just me having the issue.

    3. Procedure Publisher*

      It reminds me of VDI being a pain. Some people just found it so painful to use and stayed on their Windows desktop to avoid it. The biggest issue was that it would freeze and have a countdown for it trying to reconnect. It gave me “is this my home internet doing this or is this VDI being VDI” gripe.

      It does not help that VDI one day decided to go down, and everything that I needed for my job was tied to VDI. Thankfully, I had training and could use online Outlook to clean out the inbox.

  77. Victoria, Please*

    I have a new boss starting on Monday. i was on the search committee that selected her and she will be really great I am sure. I have a 2 hour meeting with her next week and would love to have advice about how to spend that time well. What kind of topics should be on the agenda?

    1. HonorBox*

      I’d ask her what kind of information she would like to have from you relating to any projects that are happening right now.

      I’d want to know how she likes information being shared uphill. Does she prefer email, in person, etc.

      You might ask her what her vision is for your workplace. This may have come up tangentially in the interview, but you could dig in a little more.

      Additionally, if there were topics that came up during the interview that were touched on, but not in depth, you could see about digging in a little more.

      And I’d suggest just trying to find out a little more about her personally. You aren’t friends, so you don’t need to know all her hobbies and likes/dislikes, but if she’s open to sharing a little more about herself, it will build a good working relationship.

  78. Irish Teacher.*

    Just reading that open thread somebody mentioned above and there is a conversation about working abroad and that just made me think: for those of you who have worked in more than one country or who have worked outside your native country, what work related cultural differences did you experience? What surprised you about working in (or with, if you’ve been collaborating with people from another country) a different country? How did the workplace norms differ from what you were used to?

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I found both Germans and Dutch are much more direct/blunt e.g. when assigning work, which I found much easier than the dance of polite hints in the UK. Your team will be bewildered and unhappy if you expect them to deduce what you want from cues, so tell them something like “please do xyz by date dd”.
      Criticism / advice is also blunt, but not normally meant as rude (unless it is!)

      I found Germans were more formal at work and didn’t use first names until they got to know you a bit. That’s changed a lot over the last 35 years, but some old-fashioned C-Suite still expected to be addressed as Herr/Frau Flick, as do some office managers and EAs.
      I didn’t work in France, but I worked on joint projects with French teams and they started off more formal too.
      So try to sus out what to call people at all levels e.g. “Hello, I’m FirstName Surname” and see how they introduce themself.
      I had teams working for me in India and Malaysia, but they just followed me with first names, so I don’t know about working there.

      Far more work commutes by bike in Germany, Austria, NL, Scandi. Even senior managers did this. Lots of bike lanes and safety in numbers. I took up cycling again for commuting and pleasure. At work, bike stands and often facilities to change and shower. FinalJob had literally 1000s of employee bikes at just our site, also company bikes to get around the huge site.

      Nowhere, thank the goddess, had work potlucks. At least in my field (Engineering) the Christmas dinners, project reward dinners, conference dinners etc were occasional and informal, with normal leisure clothing and employees only. So no black tie/party dress dinners, no awkardness for the singles. Do ask beforehand though.

      In my first after-work trip to the sauna with coworkers I found it was mixed sex and nude. I found this to be usual for saunas in Scandinavia and Germany. At 30 I just chuckled and went with the flow. In my teens or early twenties I’d have squawked “NOOO” and fled home. So, do ask what is involved in any work outing that involves fewer/different clothes.

      1. WestsideStory*

        I spent some time working with Dutch, German and British teams on the same projects. There’s a funny internet joke called the Anglo-EU Translation guide that’s pretty spot on, if I can find a link I will send it. Some nuggets:

        UK: “I hear what you say.” What EU hears: “Great, they like the idea.” What UK really means: “I disagree and do not care to discuss it further.”

        UK: “Can we consider other options?” What EU hears: “They have not decided.” What UK really means: “I hate your idea.”

        UK: “That’s an interesting suggestion.” What EU hears: “They like the idea.” What UK means: “I think you’re an idiot.”

        And so on. The veneer of politeness (UK) often whipsawed against the blunt forthrightness of DACH colleagues especially was fascinating to me.

    2. Jenny*

      I’m an American teacher and I taught at a Chinese high school for a year. It was a program within a regular/normal Chinese high school, not a school for foreigners. There were huge differences. Teaching in America requires a great deal of attention to classroom management of the students’ behavior, especially keeping them from blurting out or talking when they aren’t supposed to, etc. In China this was just . . . not a thing. Students simply never talked when they shouldn’t. Some of this might have been because my classes within the program were much smaller—10 or 12 students instead of the 25 or more I was used to, but it got me thinking about how much misbehavior we tolerate and even expect in schools in the U.S. Our pop culture, Saved by the Bell, etc., often valorizes breaking school rules and makes misbehaving seem cool. I didn’t see any sign of that cultural attitude there.

      It wasn’t normal or, I think, even possible for Chinese teachers to change schools, ever. I got the sense that whatever school you were hired at or assigned to after graduating college was the one you stayed at for your entire career. One of my colleagues had to live hundreds of miles from her husband because he worked in another province. There was a bigger emphasis on the group and the school identity, much less individualism. Among the teachers and students, little or no complaining about, griping about, or questioning policies or decisions.

  79. Forest Hag*

    I got some good news…..I GOT A JOB! After a very long, soul-destroying job search, I landed a job with an organization that I’m really excited about! And here’s the best part…I negotiated salary, and I GOT WHAT I WANTED!!!!!! I have never negotiated salary before, and I am 40 years old. I’ve always struggled with people-pleasing and feeling like I wasn’t worthy, or that I’d be perceived as ungrateful. But with the help of AAM (and also being older and running out of Fs to give), I did it – and am joining a team that sounds excited to have me, and really supportive of one another.

    I have posted here before about all the nonsense at my current job (in higher education IT), and I get to leave all that behind in 2 weeks!!! I’m sure I’ll encounter new nonsense, but that’s part of the excitement. :) Thanks to everyone for all the advice, support, and commiseration. I hope you all have a wonderful weekend!

    4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Congratulations, very well done!
      Enjoy your great new job and new coworkers.

  80. My Useless Two Cents*

    The discussion today about letter #2 made me think of one of my pet peeves when calling businesses to schedule appointments. Not really related to the letter so I thought I’d add here to see if anyone else had thoughts.
    Me: I’d like to schedule an appointment
    Business: Of course, when would you like to schedule it?
    Me: Anytime really, I’m open.
    Business: *silence* *silence* *silence*
    (finally) Me: Okaaay, how about next Tues.
    Business: Sorry, there are no appointments available on next Tues. *silence* *silence* *silence*
    GRRRRRR. So, tell me when there are availabilities!!!!! Do not make me play pick a date and time until I hit a freaking jackpot availability. Even worse are internet request forms that make you pick a date and time without showing availabilities.
    Does this drive anyone else crazy?

    1. nnn*

      Ugh, that is so frustrating!

      Sometimes (if I’m talking to a human) I’m able to disrupt this pattern by saying what I actually want in my own words, even if it’s not a specific date. Examples: “Not too early in the morning” or “soonest available appointment” or “Do you have anything available immediately before or after lunchtime?” The open-ended questions seem to trigger more of a “let’s solve this problem together” approach.

    2. HonorBox*

      100%! The business has all of the information and you have none of the information related to what they have available, and it makes it so much easier if they are forthcoming with what works on their end.

    3. Moose*

      This is related but different. I hate hate hate hate it when I’m returning a call from a vague message only saying “sorry we missed you please call us back” and when I do they ask why I called. It usually goes like this:
      Business: Hello thank you for calling. How can we help you?
      Me: I’m returning your call. My name is Moose and I received a message saying to call you back.
      Business: What was the purpose of the original call?

      I just want to scream “I DON’T KNOW. YOU CALLED ME.” My cat’s vet does this ALL THE TIME and it drives me nuts.

  81. Lightning Bug*

    I need some advice on a decision I’m struggling with (sorry in advance for the length). I have a great job that I love – with one key issue. A good (and rare) opportunity came up in my industry, so I applied and I have a very strong feeling (along with hints from my network) that an offer is coming. Both jobs have strong pros/cons and I really don’t know what to do. For context, I work in the arts, so company culture, artistic merit and enjoyment of my work is very important to me. Stability is also something I’m really looking for from my job these days.

    Current job (company A) pros:
    -Fantastic culture that I thrive in
    -Great relationships
    -A long history there (which gives me a little seniority/sway to try to make a difference and a lot of autonomy)
    -Guaranteed consistent, weekly hours that are fairly flexible (I’m always getting paid for 40 hours)
    -Job duties are becoming more focused on the areas I’m specifically interested in
    -Time allowed for long term projects/improvements
    -Better equipment
    -Does amazing artistic work and programs more interesting shows
    -Has overall leadership that I know pretty well and trust

    Company A cons
    -I’m on a seasonal contract where I get X amount of weeks per year off (which varies year to year). This is likely (hopefully) going to even out for at least the next couple years to be consistent and more minimal, but isn’t written in stone guaranteed (This is the issue that had me applying for the other job in the first place)
    -While it’s going to be less time off in the next couple years, I’m still going to be taken off a show per year to save money, despite the fact that we need reliable coverage and that I have the highest show running skills in my department
    -Pay is fine but not great, and has a lower hourly than the other job
    -While there is a slim chance my current job could become more permanent (no more unpaid weeks off), that conversation is several years away.

    Company B pros: (all information taken from my interviews and from a close friend who held the same position I applied to, in a different department)
    -Higher hourly rate, and likely a higher yearly take home
    -Secure future
    -Solely responsible/ownership over one particular space in the org overall (I would run and tech all the shows in that space)
    -Likely fewer weeks without work (I would have a high priority in taking the work available and filling gaps between the shows in my space). My friend assured me the work ends up being there for the taking.
    -Union
    -Of the two spaces in this company, the one I would run has the more interesting shows and the better culture/atmosphere
    -The department I would join is apparently the most together and functional in the production side of things

    Company B cons:
    -Schedule is much less predictable. Things get added last minute, and it’s apparently hard to plan anything around the work schedule
    -No guaranteed hours per week. Some weeks could have a ton with overtime, others would have less than 30 so I’d have to hustle and find work in the department to keep hours up
    -Bad communication from upper management on the schedule and added events. The direct manager I’d work with does her best to keep her dept informed, but can only work with the info given to her, which is often lacking
    -Generally less exciting or interesting shows
    -Sounds as though I’d have to do more hours in what I’m less interested in (events, loading in) to make up my hours rather than just focus on what I’m most interested in (teching/running shows)
    -Company culture is not great overall (especially in the other space where I would be going for extra hours).
    -“You would hate it,” my friend said when I asked about the culture. She predicted that it would be a very hard adjustment for me and likely not be great for my mental health for at least the first year or so.

    Where both A and B tie
    -Work with high caliber artists, many of the same people
    -Jobs are both described as primarily teching/running shows, which is what I want
    -Institutions are well respected and have stellar reputations. Both are considered in the top theatres in the city
    -Good direct supervisors that I have known for a long time and have good relationships with
    -Full benefits and paid vacation, plus overtime pay
    -Autonomy and trust to do my job well
    -Both are willing to work around a standing weekly commitment within reason (a class I take for enjoyment)
    -Both have grandbosses who are not great in similar ways

    I keep trying to remind myself that applying doesn’t mean I am obligated to take the job, but I am oddly feeling guilty about considering turning it down. It’s possibly also because I know I’m their top choice, which makes me feel respected and like my skills are seen and appreciated, which is flattering (generally I feel respected/appreciated at A… except for my grandboss who controls when I’m on/off contract). If B was clearly more stable and I knew exactly how my year would look, I would have an easier time deciding. My industry definitely has some uncertainty and you’re expected to be flexible and adaptable, but B was really stressing it in a way that made me feel as though it’s much more chaotic than typical (which was confirmed by my friend). Theatre careers are not known for a work/life balance, but it’s becoming more important for me to try for a more balanced life.

    I’m also not sure if my hesitation is just due to a fear of change. Leaving A would be hard and sad and scary. I usually listen to my instincts, but right now I’m not sure if fear is coloring them or not. I realize this is a good problem to have, but I am struggling with the decision. How do I decide?

    1. Jenny*

      That sounds like a tough choice. You said that artistic culture and enjoyment of your work are important to you, and it seems like both jobs are roughly equal on that. You mentioned the importance of company culture, and it sounds like your current company is the clear winner there, with your friend telling you you would hate the culture at B. For stability, it sounds like Company A is much better in terms of predictable work hours. Is the only advantage of Company B higher pay? How much more money would make the worse schedule and culture worth it? If you want to stay at Company A, maybe some form of a side hustle during the times you’re off contract would be an option?

      1. Lightning Bug*

        I do usually have a way to side hustle when I’m off contract with A. There’s a third company that is always happy to hire me for contract work if the dates line up, and I have a deep network in my industry. I’m also the go-to for coverage with A when I’m off. Which is great, but still having to sort of hustle to fill that time is getting old.

        Having not worked at B or in any union positions, I don’t have the experience to know if the money makes the seemingly stressful schedule worth it (or if it’s truly as stressful as it seems) or would be an environment I would thrive in.

        I really don’t know if this is an opportunity I shouldn’t pass up and the only reason I’m considering passing is because I’m afraid of change.

        thanks for your comment!

        1. Theaterjunkie*

          As a theater artist who has a lot of experience it seems like the unpredictable schedules of company could be serious problem. My experience of unpredictable theater schedules is that they are always more hours than anyone anticipates. I also find it difficult to keep my enthusiasm up when I’m working on shows I’m not interested in. as long as you have reliable side hustles, I would see company A as a better fit.

  82. nnn*

    Please share any information you have about how to unionize!

    (I know there’s another union-related discussion in this thread, but that’s more of a “what are unions like?” conversation. What I’m asking is more “how do you do it?”

    In a comment in one of this weeks’ letters, a poster said they didn’t realize how easy it is for employees to unionized until they (in management) were required to attend an anti-union meeting, and they wished there was a way to communicate that to their employees.

    I know that particular commenter is not authorized to share what they know, but other people must also have the same information.

    So: what can you tell us about how people can unionize?

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        Oof. Be careful about this, please! You should treat “looking up information about unions at work” the same way you would “applying for a new job at work” – those are Company computers, and their I.T. team can see every website you visit. (In fact, H.R. probably requires it, because they need to know if employees are browsing inappropriate websites – like pornography – when they should be working. Of course, H.R. will also be on the lookout for anything that may foreshadow a union, so they can disrupt it before anyone engages in protected activity that could give rise to charges of retaliation.) I.T. may be able to remotely view your screen, without any sign you can observe that it’s happening. They can also set up your computer to record every keystroke (so they can log in to your personal E-mail in the future if you logged in even once from work), and have the web-browser save every page you visit instead of protecting your privacy.

        This is the worst from a protected-activity standpoint, because you can’t prove they actually did any of this. Imagine if you’re trying to organize and a coworker rats you out. Do you think management is going to say “we are (illegally) terminating you because of your (protected) activity”? Nope! They’ll come up with some other pretext. Management loves this kind of secrecy. They’ll also spread propaganda that says “if your employer is creating a hostile workplace environment for you then it means they’re trying to pressure you into resigning (so they don’t have to pay UI) and the best way to ‘stick it’ to them is to quit before they can fire you (which they haven’t done because then they would have to pay UI)”.

        The page title there is “Forming a union . . . ” – is that its name on your bookmarks bar as well? If a manager comes in to check on your work and glances at the screen, are they going to see that?

        I strongly urge you to consider doing something that is protected activity, to establish the basis for a retaliation charge if they terminate you. If you and coworkers don’t already know everyone’s pay, openly disclose your salary/wages to coworkers when management is in the room. (It’s important that the witnesses are aware your manager was there; don’t speak up only when he’s passing by if you’re the only one who can see him.) If you receive any pushback (discipline of any kind, whether it be a verbal warning or a formal write-up), write it down (even during the meeting!) in a personal notebook to take home with you (then stow the pages at home so they can’t be confiscated when you return), and write a follow-up E-mail to send to whoever spoke with you, summarizing all the details you remember being told and asking if they would add/clarify anything. You can either Cc/Bcc this to your personal address or print up the E-mails later.

        Make sure to adhere strictly to company policy – your protection isn’t absolute, the employer can still fire you if you give them a legitimate justification to.

        Consider talking with a few of your coworkers about the need for discretion but also the importance of documenting any management/H.R. activity they encounter. Management may already be aware, and you should all be watchful for the commonly-taken actions that are unlawful – so little as asking employees whether they support a union (or if they know of any coworkers who do) can run afoul of the NLRA, and mandatory meetings for employees to be subjected to anti-union propaganda are illegal in 5 states (New York, Connecticut, Maine, Minnesota, and Oregon), while on the federal level the currently-appointed Board may frown on it but you probably won’t see any enforcement if a new administration takes power in 2025.

        1. 1LFTW*

          This whole comment is great advice, but I want to draw attention to this part of it:

          I strongly urge you to consider doing something that is protected activity, to establish the basis for a retaliation charge if they terminate you.

          My Union Rep gave me similar advice when I became shop Steward. For context, the Union hasn’t always had high visibility in my sector, and Management really doesn’t like the fact that this is changing. There has been… shadiness. So, I make sure to engage in visible union-related activities at least once a month, even if it’s just emailing people about the new contract. Doing so protects all of us.

          In your case, discussing/disclosing your salary to coworkers in front of management is a good strategy. You can talk about other working conditions like health and safety; for instance, if there’s no step ladder, and you’ve been told to just stand on that swiveling wheeled office chair.

          In the mean time, keep your nose clean, document everything, and tell your colleagues to do the same. Solidarity!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      There’s an ask-the-readers post from a few years about this exact topic! Lots of good information there.

      “ask the readers: how to unionize your workplace” from June, 2020

    4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Can you join an existing (largeish) union in your field?
      Less inventing the wheel.

  83. Glazed Donut*

    Teambuilding question! (I know everyone here is a big fan of it… /s)

    Last year I left a job for many reasons. One of which was the culture within my office: lots of “got to agree with the boss all the time” and little room for other opinions, horrible gossip, and micromanaging. Most smaller teams within the office operated ok, but at least one seemed to gain and lose employees at an alarming rate due to the issues above.

    I recently met up with a former coworker/employee. She told me about how, in response to the issues, HR set up periodic teambuilding days for the office to work together on ice breaker activities, silly “hold the string and untangle the knot” type things. She said it was mostly a waste of time, in her opinion. There was one teambuilding day that alarmed her – HR had a list of semi-controversial topics, and each person in the office had to share their view on the topic in order “to be able to have difficult conversations.” She gave an example: legalization of weed. We live in a conservative state, and this is for a state agency. She said the opinion shared ran the gamut and people had very strong feelings.

    I agreed with her that sharing opinions like this is unlikely to make the team work better together! Is there a world or place in which it’s helpful to know your coworkers’ (and boss/employees’) stances on controversial issues? I could see it being mentally filed away now and used as subtle ammunition later.

    1. Angstrom*

      If you need to be able to have conversations about difficult *work-related* topics, those topics might be valid for discussion. Otherwise, it’s nobody’s business what anyone thinks about issues outside the workplace. Boundaries!

    2. The Unionizer Bunny*

      HR had a list of semi-controversial topics, and each person in the office had to share their view on the topic in order “to be able to have difficult conversations.” She gave an example: legalization of weed. We live in a conservative state, and this is for a state agency.

      Public sector. Still subject to the EEOC’s jurisdiction, but the timeliness requirements for filing a complaint are just 45 days. If that kind of teambuilding event happens again, it will start up a new deadline.

      Conservative state. Did the list of controversial topics include “gay marriage”? Did any of the topics otherwise implicate a protected category? Having to be present for an hour (or several hours) listening to one’s coworkers disclose hateful views would probably constitute a hostile work environment, and it’s a foreseeable consequence for any invisible categories. (If someone is of a particular skin-color or gender, it’s visible. Ethnicity, sexuality, religion, some forms of disability – are not. H.R. created situations which could silently (without warning) bring liability onto the (state) employer? That’s the opposite of what they should be doing.

      . . . and, sadly, par for the course. (You’d think H.R. has training on the laws they’re trying to ensure the company abides by. Sadly, “protecting management” often extends to “protecting each other”, which leaves them with little incentive to prepare for accountability.)

      Being put into a position where they have to either risk persecution by their coworkers, or actively voice opinions which are hurtful to their own identity, would be a deeper level of emotional suffering. I’m thinking about damages at this point, punitive as assessed by juries.

  84. aceowl*

    How do you know it’s time to go for a promotion? I’ve a librarian for a couple of years now and I’m generally pretty happy where I am, but a promotion opened up that is pretty interesting. I applied for it and got through to the first round of interviews.

    The thing is though, is that there’s not far up to go after this promotion and I’m fairly young. I think I’m struggling with the idea of being in this position without any way of leaving if it doesn’t go well. For example, I can’t laterally transfer to a different branch if I don’t like the environment. This is it. Is that a pretty typical worry?

    1. But maybe not*

      I think it is a typical worry, and it’s a semi-legitimate one. I received three promotions in my first ten years at my current organization and I really don’t see a way up or out at this point. I still have 30-35 years of work left. I’m mostly happy with what I do, but I’ve been in my current role for two years and I’m already worried about being stagnant. The thing is, I don’t thinking taking longer to get to this position would have changed that concern, you know? I just would have made/saved less money.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think this is a normal thought process (at least, I thought about it a lot when I took my latest promotion) but I would try to avoid putting the cart before the horse too much. If you want the job the promotion offers, for the job’s sake- than go for it. If you just want the promotion for the sake of a promotion, you might want to think twice.

    3. noname today*

      A friend went for a promotion back-in-the-day because he decided he’d rather do the work of leading a team than report to someone who knew less than he did about 1. His company’s /division’s culture and 2. The subject matter. Seemed to make sense to me.

  85. But maybe not*

    Semi-serious question. I am really, really good (although not as good as Hlao-roo, I suspect), at finding things on the internet. People ask me questions and I can deep dive the answer within 10 minutes. Are there well paying jobs where I can do this? It’s such a thrill to uncover the answer and provide it to the person who needs it.

    1. Going Underground*

      Oooh I’d be interested in this too! I’m especially good at finding goods online much cheaper than anyone else!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Ha, I’m only good at finding old AAM posts. On the rest of the internet, I’m just average at finding things :)

    3. Princess Peach*

      Nonprofit prospect research might be worth exploring, although it’s much more open-ended than just finding the answer to a question. However, those jobs typically only exist in higher ed and the largest, best-funded nonprofits. I’m a major gift officer who spent the majority of my week doing prospect research and I wish my org had a dedicated prospect research position.

      1. But maybe not*

        I was in development in my first life, which is probably where my skills came from :) I’m actually in higher ed right now and could easily get into development here, but the pay isn’t comparable and the Foundation doesn’t have the same benefits as the university. Maybe I’m better off training my coworkers to ask me internet searchable questions.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t know about well paying, but yes, there are research positions out there. Usually it’s in a specific field. There’s also various branches of librarianship, but again… that’s going to be in a specific field.

    5. Morgan Proctor*

      I follow someone on Instagram that’s made a career out of this, she finds super deals on designer clothes/accessories. She has a patreon you can join to get full access to all of her findings.

    6. Weaponized Pumpkin*

      Have you ever seen the old movie Desk Set with Katherine Hepburn? That kind of fact checking would have been perfect for you.

      My last company, a media agency, had a research desk that did a deeper form of this kind of “desktop research”. (That’s what you’re describing, mining existing info with a computer and info as opposed to gathering new info yourself like through a survey or focus groups.) We gave them assignments and they’d spend a day or two researching whatever topic we gave them. They’d come back with a summary of relevant statistics / trends / facts they could find that would get us up to speed on that topic.

    7. lime*

      I used to work for an EAP company and they offered a service like this. Basically, clients could contact the EAP company with a request, such as finding an apartment, finding a new doctor, finding a performer for a child’s birthday party, down replacement vintage dinnerware, etc, and a researcher would find options for them in their area and prepare a report for them. Sounded like a cool job, but it unfortunately didn’t pay very well.

      I sometimes tinker with the idea of starting by own business with a service like this. It’d be like a personal shopper/concierge service. But that’s only once I get sick of my current industry

  86. Going Underground*

    I’m hoping to get a couple of job interviews in the next few weeks, but am ‘in my head’ too much and could use some advice, please!

    I currently work as an administrator in a paediatric healthcare setting, and have applied for one job at a local university, and one job in a different dept of my current employer.

    I’m debating what I can say if I’m asked why I’m looking to leave my current job – I absolutely love the work, but the management of my dept is terrible.

    We have three team leads – two are too laid back and don’t manage staff issues, the other is an unapproachable micromanager who nobody likes dealing with.

    I have one particular colleague who does the bare minimum, and really doesn’t care that this means more work for all of her colleagues. She arrives late, leaves early, doesn’t do her share of our work, pretends she’s dealt with emails when she has not – and spends much of her day loudly chewing, chatting and belching.

    Myself and other colleagues have raised the issues she causes to our workflow to our team leads many times; they agree with us that her behaviour is an issue and that she must be spoken to. They might jokingly ‘reprimand’ her here and there, but it’s always done in a jokey way and they never have a proper meeting with her to seriously raise the issues.

    I’ve got to the point where I’m fed up doing a higher level of work (as I’m very conscientious) for the same pay that she gets doing the bare minimum. I know I can’t give that as a reason why I’m looking to leave, and don’t think I can say the poor management is the reason – so what do I say?!

    I’m neuro atypical and usually tell the truth about everything! So am struggling as to what I can say, as my instinct would be to tell the truth, but I know I can’t.

    Any advice gratefully received, thank you,

    1. avocadolime*

      Something bland and unspecific is the way to go. “I’m looking for a new opportunity.” “I’m really interested in working more in [x]/doing more [y] [link to the duties of the job you’re interviewing for].”
      The interviewers aren’t actually interested in the minutiae of your current role; think about it more as a way to demonstrate you’re aware of what the job you’re applying for entails and/or that you have relevant skills.

      1. Going Underground*

        Thank you avocadolime – you’re absolutely right and I just couldn’t get my brain to quiet down and think of that!

        Thank you so much – that’s great advice.

    2. WellRed*

      It’s been great but I’m looking for a change. Your company/this role excites me because…

    3. Sloanicota*

      I agree with others, no need to get into that probably. If you’ve been there a while it’s fine to say “new challenges” or “not a lot of room to grow” where I am, if that feels true to you (so no need to lie). If you have had a short tenure at your current job though, less than two years, you might need to tweak it as it would be unrealistic to be seeking new challenges right away – then you might say you’ve realized (X) isn’t for you because of (true reason with no bearing on the new job) but you’re excited about Y. You could say, “I’m looking for a stronger team culture” or “I really want to work on a team that strives for excellence” if you wanted.

      1. Going Underground*

        Thanks Sloanicota. I’ve been here about 20 months. The job in a different dept is essentially the same as my current job, so no scope to mention growth or new challenges, I think that’s what I’ve been stuck on.

        Both of the other jobs have face to face interactions with patients/service users whilst my current job does not, so perhaps I’ll use that as a change I’ve been looking for.

        A stronger team culture is a good phrase too – thanks for your help!

    4. The Unionizer Bunny*

      I have one particular colleague who does the bare minimum,

      The bare-minimum possible or the bare-minimum required by her actual job duties?

      and really doesn’t care that this means more work for all of her colleagues.

      If she is meeting requirements and your team still has to work overtime (or work harder) to reach goals, then your team is understaffed and management needs to figure out how to recruit more personnel.

      It sounds like management thinks her “behavior” is the problem. Have you tried framing it as “employee is non-working when she should be working, which results in her not achieving the level of work expected here”? Because maybe she is. Maybe management’s expectations are lower, and the rest of your team has been exceeding those expectations. That could explain why management characterizes her “behavior” as the problem.

      I’ve got to the point where I’m fed up doing a higher level of work (as I’m very conscientious) for the same pay that she gets doing the bare minimum.

      I admire your work ethic, but you need to hear this: the labor market has changed. No longer can you count on a promotion (or a bonus, or a raise) for excelling at your job. If you do get more done, your employer may not even give you a great performance review, and they will happily accept the increased productivity as their natural due. What it means to them is “lower workforce costs”, because they can afford to not hire another person when they have YOU to do that person’s work on top of your own. You are already doing that level of work for the entry level of pay – why would they give you more? What’s happening here (and all across America) is not “laziness” – it’s workers realizing that employers are no longer fulfilling their side of the social contract, and beginning to “work their wage”. Your best hope for upward mobility is to find a new job every couple of years.

      Or be part of a union. You and your coworkers (in a rank-and-file union), or whoever you all elect to represent you, can bargain for cost-of-living adjustments and seniority-based raises. (There’s no guarantee that the employer will agree to this, but they have to come to the table for negotiations.) It’s also common for unit-wide contracts to include very specific job duties, which not only helps you say “no, that’s outside of my job role, you hired me for entry-level work and you can’t have me doing advanced tasks without giving me the advanced pay” but also can help the workers who actually care about the company (and this is actually the norm for unions) to pressure the “free-riders” into doing their part.

      Which is not the same as “working twice as hard if everyone else is”. In fact, you might get some pushback if you did that – “by doing extra work you are taking away what would have been another union-worker’s job”.

  87. boggy*

    Question for ADHD-havers: I’m having a baddddd couple weeks at work. I have nothing but a bunch of non-urgent, long-term tasks, which is my kryptonite, and I can’t focus to the point where I’m getting nothing done. It’s review season too, which doesn’t help! I have a lot of goodwill with my bosses, but I know this is not good. Any advice for putting myself together?

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Not ADHD myself but definitely struggle with executive function. Can you break the tasks down into very discrete subtasks and set yourself a goal of completing 1 per day (or 1 per project per day, whatever makes sense)? When I’m really struggling to get stuff done, it’ll be something like “all I have to do today is open this ticket and read through it once” or “all I have to do today is find the file I need and leave it open on my desktop for tomorrow.”

    2. Basement Dweller*

      My tip is idiosyncratic but I go to a local restaurant when I’ve been putting off something I really should have powered though by now. I’m not allowed to leave until I’ve made a good stab at the thing or things I’ve been putting off. (The restaurant has margaritas, my personal weakness, and I order one when I’m on the home stretch at last.)

    3. DefinitiveAnn*

      Break the non-urgent, long-term tasks into steps: Write three prompts; balance accounts x, y & z, call these five people, write 3 paragraphs about llama importing, prepare questions for 30 minute interviews…

      Then schedule blocks of time for steps for the next day. The first task can be “identify steps for non-urgent long-term project X.”

      I have ADHD also and this is a tool I use to help me keep work moving.

  88. avocadolime*

    My partner just applied for a job. They got an email from the recruiting company with a link to see the date that their application was reviewed. When they clicked, they were informed it was a $60 fee, with a $5 monthly fee after that point to see the date (as well as other info like how many people applied, early access to other job listings, etc.).
    Is this a common practice? It seems *really* gross to me but my field doesn’t use recruiters all that much.

    2. Lady_Lessa*

      Sounds like a scam to me. I’ve worked with outside recruiters before and my contacts always kept me up to date.

    6. Girasol*

      They should have been informed of any fees ahead of being sent on interviews, so that they could decide whether to accept the cost or not patronize that recruiter. If they didn’t sign a form saying they’d pay, they shouldn’t have to.

    9. avocadolime*

      To be clear, the position is a leadership position at an org (and is a legit position). And the recruiting company seems like it’s real? It’s just trying to hustle money in an awful way on the side?

      1. WestsideStory*

        Can you apply directly to the org? or via something like LinkedIn? it sounds like the recruiter is harvesting job openings but being asked to pay is definitely a scam.

  89. Mid Career Setback*

    What have folks on here done to recover from mid-career setbacks?

    I got laid off last year and have been out of full time work for a solid year now. Not counting the year of unemployment, I have about 10 years of work experience if you count the Masters degree. I lost my job just around the time I was reaching momentum and should have been getting promoted.

    I decided to take a break from applications and interviews because I just feel like I’m spinning my wheels (I just finished an interview for the 30th job since I got laid off.) I’m thinking of doing a certification, but I don’t know which I should pursue.

    Any suggestions, on certifications or otherwise? I don’t want to stagnate.

    (I’ve also been networking to the best of my ability.)

    1. oof*

      Well, I’m mostly in the same boat, except I’d call it a late career set-back. I finally did get a job that I will start next month. I have to move from the west coast (that I love) to a big dirty city in the east. I’m not excited about the job or the company. I mostly want to cry all day long.

      To be fair: I did get accepted into a master’s degree, which was my fall back. I got into the master’s (CS) off a waitlist. Had they accepted me first-round, I would never had applied for the job I don’t want, in the city I don’t want. Because I’m late career, I don’t know how the master’s would be seen – I’d still be 3 decades older than anyone I’d be working with. I think some of the jobs I didn’t get were for age/sex-ism “culture fit” reasons.

    2. m2*

      I think a certificate is fine if you have the money and can still keep looking/ it will benefit you. Don’t go into debt for a certificate and make sure it will benefit you in some way. If you do a certificate look at name brands- the top tier schools only imho. And only do something that is relevant to what you want to do and will benefit your career.

      Contact or look online at your grad school to see if they have any alumni or networking events in your area. Go. Mingle. I have found my last two roles entirely through networking (gets you past HR/ AI).

      Diversify your application. Say you were at Director level. Apply to Directir and a couple s. Director roles but also lower level roles as well. Manager, Senior Analyst etc. diversify where you apply look at other fields, look at “name brands” and other areas. Look at private, public, and non profit. volunteer to help speak with others, network, and add something to your resume. It’s easier to get a job if you have a job so once you get a role work really hard for a couple years try to move up and if you’re unhappy then move. Even if you only volunteer 10 hours a week it gets you out of the house.

      What do you want in 5 years? 10 years (be realistic) and what do you need to do to get there. If you have a masters and you include it in your 10 years of experience then you really have 7-8 years. Also look at roles that want 7 years of work experience as well.

      I went from being a Director to then being a Manager. It crushed me but I needed a job. I worked hard grew the programs and then within a year became a Director again, worked there for a couple years then pivoted.

      Have you applied to only 30 jobs or have had 30 interviews? If you have only applied to 30 roles in the last year that is not enough. You need to apply for way more. I applied to hundreds of roles. The longer you are out if a job the harder it will be. I was out for more than a year on the above situation many years ago, but I used it as a learning experience. I now keep in touch with people (not just when I want something) and attend networking events so if I’m laid off again I have people I can contact and who I have kept in touch with not just to ask for help. One of those people needed a role and I connected them with someone who is hiring and they are in the finalist round now.

      I wish you luck!

      1. Mid Career Setback*

        I’ve applied for more jobs but have gotten interviews with 30 of them. Each job has multiple rounds of interviews and I’ve been a finalist for a few of them. While I’m glad I’m getting interviews, I’m getting concerned at the number of interviews I’m doing that are going nowhere and not yielding job offers.

  90. Processing Bossessing*

    So, my boss is leaving. After a very short tenure. He was the leader of the whole nonprofit (ExDir) and everything is really awkward now. I’m having trouble reconciling how I feel with the AAM ethic of “people leave jobs, it’s okay to leave jobs, you don’t owe your job your soul.” For one thing, he gave us just over three weeks, but almost everybody is out (except me) for the next two weeks. Second, he’s still here but now nobody really knows how to interact with him. Do we owe him a goodbye party or at least drinks or something? I feel surprisingly betrayed because he’s basically leaving the org to fail without him without any plan or much hope (our poor budget performance is a major reason he decided to leave).

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      You sound like you take your job way too personally. It sounds like it’s doing poorly financially, and maybe because of that, you should leave, too. EDs leave orgs all the time. I’ve only worked for 2 nonprofits, but at both of them, the ED role was a revolving door. The org survived their departures just fine. If your org’s entire existence is put in jeopardy because your ED quit after a short tenure, then it’s definitely not his fault, your org was a mess way before that.

      1. rocessing Bossessing*

        Yea, I mean, we’re basically doomed and going to go under, and our clients will just be not served any more. We just can’t find steady funding sources that cover our overhead, nobody really seems to care about our clients or at least the rather niche / wonky issue we address for them. I am definitely looking for a new job too but we do have funds for the rest of the year at least and I’d at least like to leave the clients with a better plan or handover. I didn’t think my boss would walk out midyear when we’re still mid grant term.

        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          This might be a good time to review your contract: is there any noncompete or nonsolicitation provision? The former is relevant to whether you can find work in a similar organization, the latter is relevant to whether you can invite your current clients over if you do find a replacement employer for the asme services. You said “grant” so I’m thinking it may never have been a self-sustaining business; is the overhead so high because the organization is so large, and can you team up with a few other coworkers to offer partial services at sustainable overhead rates?

    2. Soft clothes for life*

      Sometimes job opportunities come up at “inconvenient for the current employer” times, but folks have to make decisions that work best for their own lives. Does your organization have a board? It really should be the board’s responsibility to shepherd the org’s financial stability. If the board is apathetic or uninvolved, that’s the bigger problem than the ED’s departure.

      But I realize that isn’t your question. If the ED has been there a very short period of time and has underperformed, I understand why you don’t want to go out of your way re: departure festivities. But, some acknowledgement is the kind approach, so think about what would be an easy thing to do. Drinks, or a card, or a cake? (I know employees often bear the costs of these things at tiny non-profits, so a card and baked goods might be easiest.)

  91. Baby come back, any kind of fool could see*

    So can I go back to a previous employer?

    I left my role 3.5 mos ago. I left many good relationships behind was a good performer and wrote an extensive transition document for every task in my responsibilities. Note: I had a documented verbal reprimand in my profile (see below).

    I left due to a new management hire for our team (I was the only team member at the time). I knew the hire was bad, but the leadership didn’t seem to notice or want to notice. They were likely desperate to have someone in the role after a 9-month vacancy and didn’t want to believe they made a mistake. In this stance, they decided my concerns and needs were subordinate and to figure it out myself. I was saddened that after a year of turmoil, I felt disregarded despite assuming lots of work in light of significant staff loss. While I met this person, the decision to hire them was complete, it was simply a gesture that we meet them.

    I left and the new manager didn’t allow me to train anyone. My departure left them in a bad state, having to do my work. They didn’t attempt to hire someone for my role, and they resigned 2 mos after me, lasting only 6 months with the org. Considering they had their own business, were working for another company, and had many side projects, I’m not sure what leadership was expecting to happen. They were always on their phone, no one knew if they were working for us at any given time, and in their last days, they were remanded to the office and under the CEO’s watch.

    So with only a staff member (a new hire to the team) shouldering all the work, I was asked (by a colleague) to return, on contract, to sort things out and train the staff member. Well, the staff member quit and now I’m training a temp.

    My being there feels normal. I haven’t been gone long enough to forget anything. I’ve met the new management; they’re nice, thoughtful, and respectful. I shared my history and the roles’ history with them. They’re so new that I think they’re worried about what will happen when I leave even if they hire someone else.

    So – can I go back? I’m emotionally torn. I will have to engage with the CEO and CHR, the two people who didn’t have my back. If I return I have to accept all the chaos that inevitably happens with these two at the helm (the CHR is interim COO until they figure out that role which has been vacant since April). The CEO, CHR, or the previous manager didn’t talk to me the last two weeks I was there. But since my return they’ve acknowledged me, say ‘hello’ and the CEO has engaged with me.

    So – can I go back? Knowing the role will likely be re-titled a Coordinator position that caps at $47k; I can make $50k+ in roles like this elsewhere. The org recently gave everyone a 2% COLA which, added to my last salary, would be $47.2k. Do I have negotiation since I returned to fix things, or train someone?

    So – can I go back? I loved my job and essentially created the role to what it is today. I loved the team (most of whom are still there). My colleague (who asked me back on contract) would like me to return but respects my conflicting feelings. I’m great at what I do and it shows; that the CEO loves what I do. I’m the right hand of the team VP.

    So – can I go back? With a documented written reprimand in my file? Two benign, but not positive comments I’ve left on other LinkedIn posts about my feeling not great about my work in our industry. No people or org names were listed (yes, someone could look at my profile and/or do good research if they were compelled and someone was.) Ex: A connection posted about staff in our industry being burned out and not feeling respected. My response was, “Yeah I don’t feel appreciated either.” Turns out the CHR had screenshots. So, I signed off acknowledging my lack of discernment. It’s the first time I’ve been written up.

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’d be very wary of doing so; I normally lead with “there’s a reason that chapter in your life ended” and you’ve already documented reasons why leaving was the right decision. It’s lousy to leave friends and acquaintances behind… but stop, listen, and tell me you don’t hear buzzing…

      1. Baby come back, any kind of fool could see*

        I left because of a manager who isn’t there anymore. The CEO and CHR are still in business, and I would have to interact with them (we’re in the same office). I’ll always know they weren’t there for me despite having earned it. Due to my, and my husband’s military careers, I’ve had to move a lot with many new jobs. This one, up until that day, I could see myself there for a long time; I had a great career plan mapped out, too. This is what’s killing me. I let – LET – this one person mindf- me to the point of leaving. I couldn’t enjoy my job with them being there; and of course didn’t know they’d leave (but should have put bets on it like my husband did).

      1. Baby come back, any kind of fool could see*

        Because I love the work. I’m finally at a place I think I could stay and do great things. This role has a long runway and I’m the perfect person for it. I let someone else, who didn’t have my best intentions on their manager’s radar, mindf- me such that I left. That’s my fault and either I have to mean culpa that or move on.

        1. WellRed*

          You say that manager was a problem but is the CEO and CHR going to treat you any better than previously? I mean, they gave you the silent treatment. That’s pretty juvenile. If you go back I’d try negotiating for more. You have nothing to lose.

          1. WellRed*

            Ugh I just reread and missed the part about CHR screenshotting a fairly mundane comment and giving you a written reprimand! If you go back (don’t) insist on having that removed.

            1. Baby come back, any kind of fool could see*

              I’ve had someone, who I worked with while in this role, say the same thing – remove that. I don’t know how I’d negotiate that.

              “If you go back (don’t) insist on having that removed.” I see what you did there :)

              1. WellRed*

                Just ask: “I would like that reprimand removed from my file. I’ve been a good worker with a reliable track record.”

                1. Baby come back, any kind of fool could see*

                  Accurate. My work has never suffered. I worked on my last day, a Friday, until 4:30 p.m. While I don’t think they’d ask me back if I were a negative influence, I think they asked me back because they were so out of their realm with the work. They weren’t completely accurate in their contract terms either: instead of doing a task/project, they wanted me to train someone. I would have quoted a higher rate.

          2. Baby come back, any kind of fool could see*

            “If you go back I’d try negotiating for more. You have nothing to lose.”

            So true! As I know what the role pays elsewhere, I can try, but as a non-profit coming out of a less-than-stellar fiscal year, the budget is practically immovable.
            – Hired at $50k (an 8% raise)
            – Resumption of 3 years in service (anniversary next week) and all benefits afforded that timeline.
            – Removal of negative personnel actions

    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Well, some of this is under your control and some isn’t. You need to decide if you want to go back. Then (if you do), you talk to them about it and they get to decide if they want you back permanently, with this history. Don’t assume their decision, and don’t make their decision for them.

      Points in favor:
      – you liked the team
      – you liked the work
      – you know the work, you know you can do it

      Points against:
      – pay is not good, and not going to get better
      – upper management sounds not great in a variety of different ways

      Not included in your post:
      – have you been applying for other work, and how is that going?
      – do you place a lot of value on known situations versus the unknown?
      – how secure are you financially? Do you need a job right now, any job will do?
      – will this role set you up for success in the future (look good on your resume, allow you to have significant accomplishments)?

      Your choice is not “this job now and forever” – you could ask to come back and keep looking, or plan to come back for a year and start looking then. You could ask to extend your contract but not return to full time employment with them.

      I’ll be honest, this doesn’t sound like a good job to hitch yourself to long-term – but if you need the money now, or if you want the comfort of routine more than an uncertain new job, there’s nothing wrong with that. You get to decide what your priorities are.

      1. Baby come back, any kind of fool could see*

        Not included in your post:
        – have you been applying for other work, and how is that going?
        — Yes, I’ve been applying. Had (3) interviews last week and this week. While I was turned down for one, it was the first since starting to interview. I’ve turned down continuing the process with a few due to not being a good fit.

        – do you place a lot of value on known situations versus the unknown?
        — Due to my and my husband’s military careers, we’ve moved a lot. I’ve been with 9 orgs, in a variety of roles; change was inevitable (done now that he’s retired). This is why I invested in this job because I could make it long-term. I saw myself there, with a career progression plan, too. This role had a significant (and minor traumatic) transition last year with the loss of 3 colleagues, workplace, and I had a terrible bout of COVID. That instability was magnified in other ways. I lost a bit of my sanity (and started peri-menopause to add to the fun!). It was a cacophony of scenarios at the same time. Right now, I prefer known vs. unknown. I’m done with change. Although starting a new job/new org isn’t daunting, it’s not particularly exciting.

        – how secure are you financially? Do you need a job right now, any job will do?
        — We’re financially secure. I don’t want any job. I’m interviewing for similar jobs to this one. I want to be productive in my field using my knowledge, skills, and abilities.

        – will this role set you up for success in the future (look good on your resume, allow you to have significant accomplishments)?
        — Yes. I’ve significantly contributed to this role. It was just being ‘built’ when I assumed it years ago. It exists today because of me. I’ve made it what it is. I can take what I’ve learned and done to another role, for sure. But because I know this one, I can do improve it even more. I have a lot of ideas to do so. I had a great career progression plan, reviewed with the same CHR noted above, just months before I left. I was in it to win it.

        I left because I let this new manager mindf- me. I’ll admit that I was infuriated with their lack of investment, respect for me/my role, and what I’d been through. They simply were not interested in me. Of the 3.5 mos there (605 work hours), we had 20 contact hours mostly through 1:1’s. I/we have no idea why they took the role as they were disinterested, believed they could do anything (but evidently couldn’t), and left the team in tatters.

        I don’t want to excuse too much but I’m also in peri-menopause, so instead of hot flashes, I have hot emotions. I looked back and was rash in my decision to leave. I’ll admit that. I should have put my headphones on and sat it out knowing they wouldn’t last long. But the transition was still in motion and they just didn’t understand that. They weren’t the right person to rebuild the team which makes me question the CEO; the CHR wasn’t involved in the hiring of that manager, but they were for the current VP.

        1. oof*

          They simply were not interested in me. Of the 3.5 mos there (605 work hours), we had 20 contact hours mostly through 1:1’s.

          What is standard for you? this seems like a lot to me. It’s nearly one hour per week as a 1-to-1. My last job, I had direct 1-to-1’s with my manager … up to twice a year. I’m not saying that job was great in that respect, but nearly an hour per week with direct conversation with your manager is more than I’ve heard for my industry.

          1. Baby come back, any kind of fool could see*

            This is non-profit – we have a lot of moving parts. 2x year 1:1 is neglect in our sector. And contact hours I mean meetings, impromptu discussions or inquiries. They only answered Teams messages, no emails. I didn’t even know they had COVID until I texted saying I was late coming from another building, to which they said, “Oh I have COVID, that’s why I haven’t been in the office all week.” I was so used to them not talking to me, and we didn’t have co-dept team mtgs, I didn’t notice they weren’t in the office. That’s pure narcissism.

            A new manager who isn’t familiar with an organization, department, or team, and who has a subordinate familiar with the work schedule, activities, and requirements should spend at least 1-2 hours/week in their first 90 days and taper to 1hr/week
            in the next 90-days to understand what’s going on and how they can lead that person. I was doing their job before they arrived; they needed to learn from me so they could do their work. They had more self-confidence than humility.

            1x week 30-minute 1:1s were often on the calendar when I checked from home canceled by the time I arrived at work, and re-scheduled on dates/times that were already booked on my calendar so I had to re-organize my time for them.

          2. Baby come back, any kind of fool could see*

            And f-off for thinking an employee who expects their boss to talk to them is being unrealistic. What terrible industry do you work in?

            1. oof*

              And f-off

              … wow that was extremely rude and uncalled for. I was giving a comparison to my industry. I don’t know what is standard for you, so I asked what you expected. I did not say you were unrealistic. I just said it was unheard of in my industry.

            2. Be the fool*

              OK, go back, with that attitude you deserve each other.

              You were rude, unkind and mean to someone trying to help you! How dare you? Go back to work in your own terrible ex-job and leave the rest of us out of your bs.

    4. The Unionizer Bunny*

      My colleague (who asked me back on contract) would like me to return

      Employers can be stupid about contractors. They’ll pay 2-5 times more than they would have if they had just hired you outright. You might not have leverage, but ask anyway. Just ask, don’t put it as a dealbreaker “I cannot work without a salary increase” – leave them the option of declining, so they can say “sorry, we can’t do that” without having to take the position off the table.

      Or, by “contract” do you mean that they would give you an employment contract where you would not be “fire at will”?

      Do you have a copy of the write-up you signed? Do you live in a state where you have the right to a copy of your personnel file? You’re almost certainly outside the statute of limitations for an official complaint but that sounds like concerted activity through channels outside of the usual employer-employee relationship – someone else in your industry was complaining about working conditions for other employees and you participated in that discussion. If they bring up the reprimand during negotiations (to argue that they shouldn’t give you as much pay as you previously had), be ready to point out that the reprimand appears to have itself been unlawful, and using it as the rationale for not giving you your old job/pay back has bad optics. I don’t think you could use it as leverage for higher pay than you had when you left, but if they try to respond to your request for “pay matching industry standard” (and why were they not already offering a competitive wage? Were new hires getting that but your own raises were not keeping up?) by invoking a performance review from your old record to justify offering you what would essentially be a new position (with similar duties and lower pay), at least you’d be ready to push back on that.

  92. On the perchance*

    A question for bosses/supervisors: if you notice your junior employee has leadership potential, 1) what are key signs of their leadership potential and 2) how do you cultivate that? Encourage them to take leadership courses? Take ownership of projects? What if they’re currently more junior than others? And what if they keep getting rejected admissions-wise by those very selective leadership courses?

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Generally, I think the first step is I look for people who are dang good at the job they are doing and are actively seeking to take on new things. So, people who are both excelling at their current role and are punching above their paygrade a bit. I look for people who can see the forest for the trees and who are able to understand both the why and the how of the work we’re doing. After that, I try to give them a project and mentor them through it. Personally, I think leadership courses are a bit overrated, but I come from Academia and we have our own weird rules.

      1. m2*

        This. Leadership courses are way overrated! Give them an important project, have them mange people and see how they treat them. How do they collaborate? Do they take credit or give credit to others ?

        Someone on my team wants a promotion but they use “I” statements when in 9/10 it is a “we”’not an “I” and I have discussed this with them so in my opinion they aren’t ready yet. Do they take guidance? How do they work with others?

  93. Processing Bossessing*

    My job is very high stress right now, which I sort of didn’t notice until I started getting that wake-up-at-five-AM heart-pounding worry. This worry time is not productive; I would be better served getting another hour or so of sleep and proceeding calmly to deal with the drama during work hours and then leaving it behind at the end of the day. The problems are largely beyond my ability to solve and not of my creation, but my role (fundraising) gets the pressure put on. Do you have a personal mantra or habit of thought to dismiss work fears and go back to sleep that you could share? I do mindfulness and some yoga but I’d be interested in any more suggestions.

    1. Tammy 2*

      1. This may not be helpful, but…if it’s 4am or later, sometimes I just get up. Depending on what time it is/what I have going on, I might log on to work (but not send emails), work out, or work on my hobby/side gig. I generally have the schedule flexibility to do this and take a power nap midday. YMMV.

      2. I try to tell myself “they aren’t paying you to worry,” which sometimes helps. Mixed success.

      3. Keep a notebook and pen on your nightstand. That way you have the option of writing down any brilliant problem-solving ideas that come to you. (In my case, this never happens but having the option helps quiet my brain.)

      4. The meditation practice of observing a thought or emotion and letting it drift past is sometimes helpful but I am *terrible* about keeping up with mindfulness.

    2. A. in the Midwest*

      Use Journaling. Basically once you write it down, the worry is “dealt with”/”solved” (at least for the moment). By writing it down, it gets it out of your head.

      At the end of each day (or when you wake up), write down the problems & frustrations (for the day &/or even ongoing/continuing). This can be simple or complex.

      You could also write down some of your suggestions/ideas that would solve the problems &/or remove the issues… from practical & realistic to completely fanciful. Even if you know that none of your solutions would ever be implemented, it’s sometimes cathartic to “save the world”.

      Also, if you ever need to submit feedback on functional issues &/or solutions for your job, you will have a whole journal full!

    3. bean counter*

      I turn on a soothing audiobook like Pride and Prejudice or anything else read in a British accent. :D Or I put on a bland podcast. For some reason having something else for my brain to focus on helps me fall back to sleep.

      1. noname today*

        Came here to say this! But it’s got to be a podcast about something I’m only mildly interested in—otherwise I get too involved (think of the podcast version of something you’d put On. The tv to nap to) …it’s why I can’t read books to fall asleep to :)

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I use the Headspace app for calming noise to focus on. I started using it during the early pandemic, stopped my subscription toward the end of 2022, and started it back up around January this year.

      To get to (back to) sleep, I choose green noise, a sleep story, or they have wind downs that guide me through a 5-10 minute visualization. I’ve never been good at meditation on my own really, but guided exercises really helps me get back to sleep.

      During the day, I like their little themed meditation courses… I’m progressing through the Grieving course. They are about 10-20 each.

    5. Generic Name*

      When I wake up at night worrying about something (usually stupid) at work, I’ll write down a quick “call so and so” or some other to-do that I’m sure in the middle of the night must be done. Nine times out of ten I look at the “must do tomorrow” item I wrote down in the middle of the night and trash it right away because it was a dumb idea/thought. But at least it allows me to stop worrying (so much) about it and go back to sleep. I keep a small notebook and pen in my nightstand just for this.

    6. Anon for this*

      When I find myself worrying at night, sometimes I find it helpful to rephrase the worry as a statement.

      So for example, “Is someone breaking into my house right now?” becomes “Someone is breaking into my house right now.” An obviously untrue statement, so I can stop worrying about it.

      “Are my parents going to die?” becomes “My parents are going to die.” An obviously true statement, so I can stop worrying about it and just accept it.

      Maybe you can do the same with your work worries?

    7. Hungry for lasagna*

      I have 3 go-tos. If one isn’t working I try another. 1) Progressively focus on tightening muscle groups one at a time from toes to head. (Curl toes and hold, then relax before clenching calves and relaxing etc.) 2) Pretend I want to stay awake and open my eyes REALLY WIDE, then relax them to normal and let them drift close before SNAPPING THEM OPEN AGAIN, repeat like a cartoon character fluttering off to sleep. 3) Imagine myself in a made up dream land scenario (like what would it be like if I were a fairy), develop very specific visualizations of what I’m seeing, what I’m wearing, what I’m doing. Each of these feel a little off the wall as I’m writing about them, but the important common thread is that my brain is so occupied by these other exercises it can’t focus on my work anxiety or in-a-rut repeated thinking. Silly but they work for me!

  94. Rainy*

    I am waiting to hear about the search committee’s decision on a job I am pretty excited about! We’ll see how things fall out, I guess. I’m still applying, as my current workplace is becoming markedly less tenable, but if this is the one I think it would be pretty cool. :)

    Inevitably, as I am thinking about next steps, I woke up to an absolute circus in my inbox this morning of the sort that makes me contemplate…pettiness.

    What super petty thing would you do on the way out if you were leaving a job that annoys you as much as mine is currently annoying me?

      1. Rainy*

        No, that was a “what kind of petty quitting have you done or seen others do”, if it’s the one I’m thinking of, and that’s not what I’m asking. I’m asking “what would you do if there were zero consequences for your petty act as you leave your job at Clowns Backward R Us.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      I don’t know if this counts as petty but when I left my last job I had about fifty business cards left. The boss took a very extended lunch with my superior (with whom he was having an affair; now that both of their divorces are final, they are living together), so I used those three hours to hide my remaining business cards all over the place: front office, production office, warehouse, manufacturing. I hope they continue to find them gradually over the next couple of decades to realize that I would still work there if they hadn’t been so awful to me.

  95. Confused intern*

    Hey, new reader here! At my school, the preprofessional clubs have interviews, and if you get in, They give you feedback on your interview and their first impressions. Much of it is funny, but I have also found it helpful to think about how I “come off” when interviewing. My internship is almost up, and was wondering if I’d be able to ask for first impressions or feedback from my interview. Is that strange, or is there a more traditional way I could ask for feedback? Or is there no upside?

  96. I didn't say banana*

    1. No
    1a. Forensic psychologist (I can’t imagine many kids knowing about working with violent offenders)
    1b. Mid 30s

  97. anonforthis*

    I have a strange question regarding something that just happened to me.

    I just posted a LinkedIn post today stating and I’m searching for jobs and would appreciate any job leads. I also mentioned in my post that I’ve been out of work for 6+ months and am switching career fields.

    I just got a message from a connection from the industry I’m leaving saying that she found my post very negative, and that she is concerned that my post might give the “wrong impression” about the state of the industry. That was it. I followed up asking her to clarify her meaning, but still haven’t gotten a response. This is someone I’ve never met in person.

    Does anyone have any insight as to what might compel someone to send this type of message?

    2. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      I am not on Linked In. Can you block her? The woman is denying your reality- and how dare you switch career fields! I bet you are glad you never worked with her haha
      I agree with Rainy.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Some people believe their precious opinions are the most important thing in the world and must be shared constantly to keep the universe running. Social media encourages this mindset.

  98. Flan for Breakfast*

    One of the admins at my office has a poster of herself in her cubicle.

    I simply needed to share that.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Okay, we really need some context here. What kind of poster is it? Motivational speaker kind of poster? Ninja slayer kind of poster? Admin of the Year kind of poster?

      Inquiring minds want to know!

  99. Broken scones*

    Hi everyone! I’m looking for some work-related advice regarding a coworker. My coworker and I quickly became work friends despite the strange feeling I felt upon meeting them. I pushed my intuition to the side, thinking I’d give my coworker the benefit of the doubt. It’s been some time now, and recently we had a disagreement about attending an event together (it’s not job related, we have hung out outside of work before). I don’t want to get into details on the off chance they read this website, but since our disagreement they’ve completed iced me out at work. We can sit by side and they won’t acknowledge me unless absolutely necessary. I’m annoyed at their behavior, but I’ve been calm/professional and I haven’t commented about it to any of our colleagues. I’m wondering if anyone has any advice for this type of situation? Thank you in advance to this amazing community :)

  100. Tasma*

    Found an interesting paper on why management seems to be male. Looking at a big German company. Seems like men are much more likely to aim to be a manager than women are.

    (link in follow up)

    It isn’t clear why. Motherhood penalty? Men feeling they have to because it means status and women aren’t as interested in that?

    2. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      When I started work in the seventies (not just last century, but last millennium), I joined an organisation as a ‘management cadet’ – 4 young men, 4 young women. We each had a mentor, had all the same in house training etc. After about a year it became apparent that the men were to become managers, and the women supervisors. It was just unspoken that the men were being groomed for higher positions. Various directors used to come and talk to us as a group, and I asked one of them when did he think the organisation would have its first woman director? He said Never, because women were not committed to the workplace, and left to have children. I left not long after that. I think it was about another 25 years before the first woman director somehow got employed.
      So I feel it’s pretty clear why there are fewer women in management – it’s structural, with sexism and racism at its base, and all the other prejudices chucked in there as well. And it seems I am still annoyed about it!

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I suspect socialisation plays a large part. Men are more likely to be praised from childhood for being go-getters, being confident, being ambitious, speaking up, whereas women are more likely to be praised for putting others first, being polite, not getting “above themselves.”

      There are apparently studies that show that men will apply for jobs where they meet far less of the criteria than women will. So it would make sense that men would be more likely to apply for jobs where they are untried. Women might think “I’d never be considered for that. I have no experience. And even if I got it, how do I know for sure I’d do a good job? What if I let my team down?” whereas men might be more likely to think “this would be a good stretch position. You’ll never know until you try. The worst that can happen is that I don’t get it.”

      Then there is the “link” thing. The fact that there are more men in management means men are more likely to apply, for a whole host of reasons. If a woman sees that 90% of the her company’s management are male, she might think, “what’s the point of applying? The only women who ever get promoted are the absolute rockstars who have qualifications way above anything I have,” where men see other men with their qualifications and less being promoted, so they know they have a good chance. Men are also more likely to have connections with other managers. Think about the various letters we’ve had here where either “all the men in our company have been invited to x event but no women have received an invitation even though a lot of us would like the activity” or “our company has invited everybody to x activity but it involves something most of the men in our group enjoy and few of the women do.” If activities are segragated, even if it’s a matter of choice, but the activities are stereotypically gendered, then the men are likely to have more access to the managers, since most managers are men, which means they are more likely to get encouragement from those managers to apply for management themselves.

      And yes, I think motherhood penalty plays a large part too. Not just companies thinking “no point in promoting her. She’ll probably get pregnant and take maternity leave,” but also the fact that still, in a lot of families, women do the larger part of the emotional labour. It is still expected that a mother fits her career around parenting whereas a father fits parenting around his career. Not saying this is true for every family but it’s the societal expectation. A mother who applies for a management job is likely to be asked by family, friends, possibly even coworkers, “is that going to take time away from your kids?”, “won’t you be tired, trying to come home after working late and then having to make dinner, put your kids to bed, etc?” “are you sure you’re not taking on too much?” whereas a father who applies to management is far less likely to be asked such questions. It will be assume if he works longer hours, his wife or partner will “take up the slack” and longer hours will mean less involvement in parenting.

      Mothers are even made to feel guilty if their partner is the primary parent.

      I do think men are probably more likely to feel like they have to aim for management even if they don’t want to, but I don’t think that is the primary reason.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Why don’t more women aim for it?

      One of my own reasons is decision fatigue. In my personal life, I do the bulk of planning for other people’s needs, budgeting, scheduling, keeping people on track, keeping projects moving forward, negotiating and managing conflicts between people.

      If that’s what I did all day at work too, I’d just overload and shut down.

      So this probably points to social expectations about the role of moms and adult daughters, as much as expectations specifically about work, because everyone has to balance their life somehow.

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I think motherhood and homemaker penalty play a big role; also of course socialisation and societal sexism.

      I’m not surprised to see in the table in that article that women are significantly less likely to be fulltime:
      Employees in Germany, like most EU countries and the UK, can apply to reduce to part-time hours, which is normally agreed unless there is an overriding business objection. It is an attractive option for many with caring responsibilities – usually women – because pt here does not involve loss of benefits such as health insurance, pension or sick pay.

      Also, nearly all mothers take the option of at least 1 year’s maternity leave per baby, then quite a number choose reduced hours until at least the child goes to school at age 6. This results in mothers having fewer years of experience and short career breaks, sometimes multiple. They are then competing with men who have taken no such breaks; although some men take a few months paternity leave, I suspect they are maybe not as career-focused as those aiming for the C-Suite.

  101. Irish Teacher.*

    I’m probably asking this too late to get any kind of accurate stats in the replies, but, if you had the choice and everything else was equal, would you prefer to work from home, in office or hybrid?

    Personally, I like working from home for short periods, but I don’t think I’d really like it all the time. So maybe hybrid.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      I love work from home. I have my own bathroom and kitchenette, and I’m so much more productive because I don’t have to interact with other people over non-work related items. I’m spending one day a week in the office temporarily to cover for somebody, and I am definitely not as productive on that day. Too much stuff to get pulled into. (Also, no chocolate.)

    2. Lemon Chiffon*

      From home. I would like to be able to control my environment, which I can’t really do in office, and would definitely like to get sick less often. Also, I would trade my commute for the ability to throw in a load of laundry and water the plants in a heartbeat.

    3. Plate of Wings*

      I left a fully remote job for my current hybrid one because I wanted hybrid. I have many years of remote work experience (well before the pandemic), so it’s good that I still work 3 days per week from home because I am vastly more productive at home. But the hit to my productivity and the hours per week on public transit is so worth it.

    5. Alex*

      I went from fully remote as of the pandemic (mostly in office prior), to a hybrid job, two days in office.

      I’d rather work from home all the time, although it is nice that I have met my coworkers in person, being new. Maybe one day a month in office? Lol.

      I just like being in my own space. I like listening to stuff (music or background TV) but hate headphones, the commute is annoying, time consuming, and expensive, and my office is always too cold.

    6. kalli*

      Work from home.

      Not having to spend two-three hours either side in commuting, preparing, winding down etc. basically makes it so I can work.

    7. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Hybrid for me – I think, but I retired just before the panini when FinalJob only had wfh as a very special & rare accommodation (now the norm).
      I had a 30 minute bike ride along cycle paths, normally pleasant but a pain in rain and winte; I’d much rather have had the option then to wfh.

      However, it would have depended on new internet infrastructure for my village; even though we’re only 45 minutes from a major city, Tinterweb is not very fast and often cuts out for minutes or hours. Germany’s internet / digitalisation is shockingly bad for the supposed economic powerhouse of the EU.

      Most of my work – if with adequate internet – could have been done remotely, as most of my engineers were in different countries. I did have to occasionally visit in person our labs, prototype workshops and test rigs.

      However, we found – from training the coworkers abroad in our highly technical engineering work – that any training more than watching a video or reading a manual was much more effective in person.
      Also, exchanging the latest tips and best practice with other experienced coworkers seemed to happen effortlessly in office by osmosis, but anything for remote workers had to be documented and sent, which was a faff, so only done for the main items, not the 1000 useful little things.

    8. FlexiblyHybrid*

      I have to work from home for medical reasons and have since a few years before the pandemic, but I’d been working hybrid at most jobs since the mid90s and hybrid with 1-2 days in the office is my ideal. The key for me is flexible hours regardless. I extended my ability to work hybrid for an extra 4-5 years by often working 5-6 hours on my in office days and longer days when WAH.

      I would note that this assumes others will be in the office at the same time. Going into the office to work with people who aren’t there makes no sense.

    9. Cazaril*

      I worked remotely for several years, and eventually looked for an in person job with colleagues. My current job is 100% in person, whereas I’d prefer hybrid, but I found I needed that sense of in person teamwork at least some of the time.

  102. Land Mermaid*

    Realizing it’s nearly the end of the weekend, but looking for some advice on how to talk to higher-ups at work about their use of the word “powwow” to refer to a quick meeting. It’s always made me cringe, but since the people using the word manage me, I have been unsure how to call them out (or in). The other day a new manager used it in front of a client who I know has strong convictions on racial equity issues, and I died a little inside. It’s past time for me to say something! Thanks.

    1. Rainy*

      I think I’d just find an opportunity to say that powwows are a really specific type of meeting, namely a gathering of First Nations peoples to celebrate their culture, and it’s probably best to just say meeting if you mean meeting. Unless of course we’re planning to have a client meeting at a powwow, in which case, I’m excited for the food!

    2. linger*

      If you do push back, it will help if you can reference published examples of Native attitudes to use of such terms in mainstream culture and outside the original cultural context. Though there may be a range of different expressed attitudes out there.
      To take a different example illustrating the possible ambivalent value of loanword use:
      Over the past decade, there has been an increase in use of Māori words within otherwise English-language media in New Zealand. For the most part, this is welcomed as encouraging use of the language itself, and signalling its status as an official national language. (Some reactionaries have somewhat different opinions about this, but let’s ignore them.) However, some of those uses seem to occur as automated substitutions for rather different meanings of the same English word, which may introduce error. For example, mahi is widely used as a translation of “work”, which is fine when it means “labour or effort”, but less so when used as an equivalent to “example of an artist’s or writer’s output”, e.g. referring to a specific book or song or painting or film. Such inadvertent extensions, though well-intentioned, seem to shade into tokenism.

Comments are closed.