open thread – July 19, 2024

by Alison Green on July 19, 2024

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,134 comments }

{ 1,134 comments… read them below }

  1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

    For those who work 100% from home, (1) does anyone else have a hard time because they aren’t socializing during the day? (2) have you done anything to help combat this?

    I’m fully remote (since the start of the pandemic) and I’m realizing even though I love working from home, being so isolated is wearing me down. I’m introverted, but I miss the “hello, good morning!”, the light chit chat in the kitchen while making coffee, conversing with people who you don’t normally work with, etc. Even if I go out after work and socialize then, it still feels so awkward because I’ve been so isolated all day.

    Pre-covid when I worked in an office, I’d go work out during lunch. I still do that now, and I feel a bit better. But it still doesn’t make up for the day-to-day isolation. Then what I end up doing to get out is go shopping or run errands, which isn’t the best solution lol. I don’t like working from coffee shops because I need 2 screens to do my job. Getting a co-working space isn’t an option right now either.

    This also might be a “me” issue. I’m actually meeting with a psychiatrist next week so I plan on discussing this with her. But wanted to ask y’all first. I live alone with my dog for additional context.

    1. Alisaurus*

      Do you have the ability to work from another space? If you have a local coworking space where you can purchase a day pass, that might help!

      My roommate has a full WFH schedule (I go into the office every other day, which is enough for my introverted self lol), and she and her coworkers will sometimes meet up at coffee shops for a few hours just for that in-person camaraderie.

      1. Alisaurus*

        Whoops, realized I somehow missed the qualifiers about coworking spaces. *facepalm*

        I do second the idea below about another screen though! Several of my team have a portable second monitors that are about the size of a laptop for use when working away from their normal setups.

        Also, if you have a local library, they often have conference rooms you can reserve! Maybe there are other “out of the box” options that could work for you.

      2. WheresMyPen*

        I’m feeling this! I moved back to my hometown 100 miles from my office in London during the pandemic and now can’t face the thought of paying London rent, but I do miss being in the office and just chatting with coworkers, especially as my immediate team is pretty small and I now don’t know most of the rest of the company, whereas before a group of us would have lunch together. There are evenings where I feel like I have cabin fever and am desperate to just get out, but in my town there aren’t tonnes of places open in the evenings. I try to go into the office monthly but it’s not the same. Not sure what I’ll end up doing but I find going to a coffee shop helps, and having clubs like dancing or netball in the evenings makes me feel less like a shut in.

    2. MyJobIsToFindYouAJob*

      The year I worked fully remote I struggled with the same thing. Do you have friends that also work remotely? I found that doing a video call with them and doing some light chit chat while I worked on tasks helped! Granted I wasn’t doing any work that had privacy concerns and I wasn’t frequently in meetings, so I was able to just put my phone in my stand and basically hang out with them for an hour or so while we both got work done.

    3. Morgan Proctor*

      I’m not 100% remote, more like 70%, but I’ve signed up for things to do in the evenings, like music and dance lessons, and yoga classes.

      1. Someone Online*

        Yeah, I have become dedicated to my gym’s workout classes. It gets me out of the house, I chat with people, and it’s ultimately good for my physical health as well.

    4. A Girl Named Fred*

      Not exactly answering the question you posed, but – have you looked into a portable second monitor for your laptop so that you could work from a coffee shop or similar? I only ask because I have a coworker who is constantly out and about for her job, and their department specifically bought them these second monitors that attach to the back of her laptop and then slide or flip out when she needs a second screen. It’s still only the size of a laptop screen, so it might not work, but if that’d let you get out somewhere you could have some smaller day-to-day interactions it might be worth looking into!

      1. newfiscalyear*

        Seconding the portable monitor idea. I work from home and it is what I use because I don’t have a dedicated office space. My portable monitor is similar to a larger iPad with a magnetized case/stand.

        1. emkaaaay*

          Yep– OP, I had the same wish, and also experienced the second screen thing as a barrier. When a colleague introduced me to portable monitors (mine was maybe $100), it opened up a whole new world. It’s made it much easier to work from coffee shops, libraries, friends’ houses, etc. They’re increasingly common, so at most it’ll be a conversation piece in the coffee shop, not a weird imposition.

          If it’s doable for you, I recommend also investing in a second power cord for your laptop and keeping the monitor + cord bag in a certain backpack so that when you want to switch spaces, all you have to do is throw your laptop in and go.

        2. Wendy Darling*

          If you have an ipad there’s also software you can run to use it as a second screen! I made my ipad get a day job.

      3. DidTheyMentionScreens?*

        Did I miss something about requiring a second monitor? Most people I know are perfectly happy working directly on a laptop. I work 100% from home on a laptop. I know some folks who use a second monitor for certain types of tasks, but most folks I know actually prefer a single screen.

        1. DidTheyMentionScreens?*

          I swear I read it 3x but found the reference as soon as I posted. My kingdom for an edit or delete button…

        2. allathian*

          I absolutely need a big screen. At the office I have two monitors, at home I have a 34 in 4k monitor, large enough to display 4 PowerPoint slides at 100%. I use a certain app most of the time, but I hate switching apps, so the rest of the space is for Teams, Outlook, and my web browser. I need to look things up all the time.

        3. Depends on the job*

          It depends on the job. Software development and video editing really require multiple screens, for example.

      4. rolling with it*

        I just recently bought a portable LED monitor and now swear by them.

        My WFH set-up is dual monitors. This gives me about 80% efficiency compared to my WFH situation. It’s not perfect, but at least I can get all my work done.

    5. ecnaseener*

      Honestly, it doesn’t bother me. But I’m one of those people who never really enjoyed socializing when in “work mode” (same with school, I almost never made friends in class).

      1. Alexis Carrington Colby*

        The thing is, I hate socializing at work too!! LOL I’m the type to focus on work at work and then leave. I never socialized in the in-crowd at work, but I would have a few work “friends”. Even before everyone went remote, I despised working in an office where everyone was so loud.

        Again, much of this might be a “me” issue.

      2. Clisby*

        I worked remotely for 17-18 years before retiring (computer programmer). I did enjoy brief socializing in-person, and my ideal schedule would have been 2 days in-office, 3 at home – but I had moved 600 miles away from office, so that wasn’t happening. Missing out on the socializing was offset by the incredible relief over not being constantly interrupted at work. I definitely missed out by not being in-office some of the time, but I also definitely was more productive working from home.

      3. Queen Anon*

        Same! I just don’t miss that awkward small talk that’s called socializing in the office. if there were people I was work friends with, I can still socialize over Teams and it’s just as good. (No, it wouldn’t be for real friends but work friends aren’t really your friends and it’s always good not to forget that.) My team communicates and socializes more since going remote four years ago than we ever did before, though admittedly that just might be a team quirk.

    6. Forest Hag*

      Are you able to take a walk during the day, or maybe go to a gym or a class during your lunch time? I have a friend who is 100% remote and lives alone, and he does his workout at a gym during midday, and that seems to give him some social time during the day. It also doesn’t haven’t to be an exercise thing, maybe just get out to a library and hang out for a bit. I would also look into joining some community things (like game groups, book clubs, etc) that don’t cost anything (I feel you on that – I would use shopping as an escape from my last job, as I worked near a large shopping center).

    7. Keeley Jones, The Independent Woman*

      I’m fine with it – however I’m married and we have two kids, so I have other wife social interaction. If I lived alone, I’d probably struggle more.

    8. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Can you take a longish break in the middle of the day and take your dog to a dog park (or swap the gym for that sometimes)? My brother did that when he was 100% WFH and needed some extra social interaction.

      Alternately, have you tried volunteering or taking up a group hobby? I’m pretty introverted, but I do like interacting with people when I’m helping at my local animal shelter. You could try that or maybe art classes or knitting/crochet groups or disc golf or something else?

    9. Ewesername*

      I have a standing “cowork” date with a friend in another department on Wednesdays. We set up a zoom meeting, turn our cameras on and just go about our day. Other people pop in and out. So far, management is okay with it. We don’t refuse meetings that come up and we mute for calls. Occasionally we chatter a bit, but mostly we’re just working on our own stuff.

    10. kiwiii*

      Our team has a chat-friendly culture, so there’s often some chatter throughout the day about shows or pets or whatever, and then our team has a monthly “just hang out for an hour or so” meeting, and so does our full product group, where we play an internet game or watch a movie or just chat for a while. I’ve really found that after implementing these we still FEEL like the dynamic we had in the office, which I know a lot of other parts of our organization are struggling with.

      1. No Longer Gig-Less Data Analyst*

        Same here – many times our internal team will join a meeting early, so we’ll chat about stuff until the client arrives. Or for my co-workers that I have more of a friendly relationship with or work with often, I’ll ping them to ask about their weekend, or if they watched the new episode of a show I know we’re both watching.

        Nearly all of our meetings are camera on, including the internal ones, so I feel like I still have that personal connection. At my last job cameras were never on, and I did feel like it was harder to make small talk with an orange circle with a letter on it. I didn’t even know what most of my old coworkers actually looked like!

        1. Sloanicota*

          I agree, we are a cameras-always-on culture and although I didn’t like it at first, it does give me more of a sense of community.

          1. CamerasOff*

            Ugh, no, cameras are not required to make a connection and there are many reasons why having them off is better (bandwidth, medical, etc).

            I’ve had online only relationships with people starting before the time graphics were common, let alone audio or video.

            I’ve been working hybrid or at home for 30 years now and pre-pandemic it was pretty standard for companies to have all cameras off (except for conference rooms) policies. I do not understand how turning them on suddenly became a thing.

    11. karriegrace*

      Even if you can’t work from a coffee shop there is a lot of value in becoming a ‘regular’ somewhere like that. Are there any local coffee places (they are friendlier than starbucks or Dunkin) or diners/delis where you could get ‘the usual’? Honestly…if you’re pleasant you will find that after a couple of weeks of coming in at the same time every day for iced coffee and a bagel you will have exactly the level of morning chitchat you need before getting down to work.

    12. ADD hoc*

      I’ve worked fully remote since 2010, and would hate going back into an office, so I’m probably just different from you temperamentally.

      I find the chit-chat at the start of zoom meetings to be crucial to maintaining a sense of connection with coworkers. Just as in a physical conference room, you don’t want to spend too much time on it, but don’t underestimate its value. I have been in group’s that wanted to “cut the fluff” out of meetings. I now have a catch phrase: “It’s not fluff. It’s glue!” When you have few other opportunities for connecting, don’t get rid of that one.

      I also stay connected with my coworkers through Slack chats; we have a number of non-work channels for topics like pets and food. I’m also in a couple of Slack instances that are professional but not employer-sponsored, and I get community through those.

      1. kiki*

        “It’s not fluff. It’s glue!”
        I love this phrasing. The fluff is a reminder that our coworkers are people who, for the most part, are good and trying their best. Not having that reminder can work, but it can also go awry.

    13. Dread Pirate Roberts*

      When I was freelancing and working from home I found it helped to join some profession-specific and freelance-specific Facebook and Slack groups where if I wanted a replacement hit of that office chitchat I could get it virtually. Now that I work in an office where some of us are remote and most of us are hybrid, I instituted a weekly drop in virtual meeting so anyone who’s feeling isolated can have a social chat (I’m not the manager, it’s a peer to peer thing). Maybe look for opportunities with your coworkers who might be feeling the same, or see if you can attend virtual events that aren’t just work meetings but professional development or wellbeing events with like-minded people?

    14. Medium Sized Manager*

      I manage people, so I make an effort to do a Slack huddle where possible (but never without warning, I promise!). I also found it really helpful to use and download Marco Polo for chatting with my friends back home – it gives me the opportunity to talk and interact throughout the day while still being at home.

    15. Clover21*

      I’ve dealt with this being fully remote. I’m glad to give up my awful commute, but I do miss some of the face to face interactions, even though I’m introverted. A few things that help me:
      1. As much movement as possible during the day- morning walk in the neighborhood and under desk treadmill. I’m also working on getting to know more people in my neighborhood, too, so I can say hi during my morning walk.
      2. Schedule a time once a week to go to a coffee shop to work and particularly pick a recurring task I can do with just one screen (emails, reading reports, etc.)
      3. If you need to meet with someone, offer to do it via video conference with camera on.
      4. Schedule lots of social interaction for after work and on the weekends.

      It’s definitely worth talking to a professional, too. Therapy has been helpful for me in prioritizing self-care and work/life balance.

    16. Pokemon Go To The Polls*

      I got a cat which helps.
      Also any time I think I might be missing out on something by being fully remote I remind myself how much it sucked losing 2-3 hours a day on commuting and getting dressed, packing lunch, etc
      I also have people I can chat with at work on Teams about random whatever, and friends I text
      Going out to grab a walk or a fun little drink or snack or something in place of your typical office coffee breaks is also really nice if it’s in the budget

      1. Goldenrod*

        “I got a cat which helps.”

        I was going to suggest this! A cat won’t solve all your problems, but they are sweet little work buddies.

    17. Baby Yoda*

      We use Teams and I actually interact with my coworkers more now than when were in office. Morning greetings, posting fun memes during the day, and just chatting.

      1. Sloanicota*

        I miss Twitter for this. I used to feel like they were my coworkers when I was freelancing.

    18. Bitte Meddler*

      I’ve been working remotely since everything first shut down in March 2020.

      What works for me is scheduling calls with coworkers in the first 1-2 hours of the day, maybe 2-3 times a week. Some of those are legitimate business calls (“I need clarification on X / Can you help me with Y”) but others are with coworkers who know I’m just trying to maintain contact with other humans (“How was your weekend / What are you working on this week?”).

      I also go outside first thing in the morning to water plants or do light gardening in my front yard for 15-30 minutes. My neighborhood is such that I am guaranteed to have a neighbor out walking themselves or their dog past my house, and people like stopping for a few minutes for light chitchat.

    19. PBJ*

      I felt this way too.
      I tried a variety of things to make me feel better – walking around the block first thing and doing my emails using Cortana and voice commands, meeting friends for lunch, working out at lunch, working from coffee shops and coworking spaces. It would work for a little while, but then I’d be back to feeling isolated, guilty for sitting on the sofa whilst the kettle boiled, and like every interaction was transactional.
      Ultimately I took a new job that was in person at an office. It’s flexible but by no means hybrid, which comes with its own challenges, but my mental health isn’t one of them.

    20. Applesauced*

      Occasionally friends and I will do WFH parties (usually on Fridays) and gather at someone’s house for the afternoon to work before doing something fun together that evening.

      Do you have other WFH friends you could try this with?

      1. By the lake*

        Two people I know did this while working from home when they had small humans. They both had childcare to facilitate working but would go to each others houses and work along side each other. They both found it helped keep them focused on their tasks and provided some adult social interaction.

        1. Nerdy rebels*

          When I was a teenager getting ready for the senior cycle exams at secondary school, my friend and I would regularly pretend to our parents that we were going to school but actually we’d stay at her (friend’s) house – her parents were both out at work – and we’d just spent all day revising for our exams, in separate rooms. At lunch time, we’d make lunch and eat together. It was great! We got a lot more done there than we would have in school.

    21. theletter*

      If there is a coffee shop in walking distance, could you pop in for a cuppa on mornings that are not too busy for you? I try to get an early morning walk in when I can and sometimes the interaction with the barista is the real caffeine of the day.

    22. office hobbit*

      I don’t have any better tips than have already been shared, but I wanted to say pls don’t feel this is a “me issue” or that the need for light socializing is something you need to fix about yourself! Many people feel the same. I hope some of these tips will help!

      1. Bee*

        Yeah, just noting I will absolutely not go fully remote as long as I live alone for this exact reason. I’m hybrid now and honestly still feel pretty isolated! I do not miss the commute or the noise in the office, which is why I’m still WFH three days a week, but so much of the casual stuff that’s not even office-based (going to the gym at lunch, grabbing drinks with a friend after work, doing hobbies outside the house) feels like it takes three times as much effort to plan and execute now. So, no additional tips, just sympathy!

      2. Future*

        Agreed. I would get very depressed if I had to go fully remote for work unless I had an abundant chance for human connection throughout the day.

    23. jasmine*

      How collaborative a remote work environment is depends a lot on your role and company culture. At my current company, people sometimes spend 5-10 minutes making small talk in small meetings. We also have a weekly team meeting that’s optional and not work, just for fun.

      My old company used to feel a little social when I first started there (not as social as my current one), but I talked to my teammates less and less as the company grew.

      So like, remote work can also involve chit chat but it depends on whether your coworkers care about that kind of thing.

    24. IWFH*

      Hm, I’m in a similar position. I work for a large company and during WFH I transferred/was promoted into a team that is based in a completely different office in a different country from where I am. I can’t go to my local office to work (or to a coffee shop or anywhere but my house) because of the nature of the contracts I work on.

      There’s only 2 of us who don’t work out of the other office so the team has less experience than my previous team (who were based in 4 different locations) in maintaining relationships with people they don’t sometimes meet in the office.

      What helps (a bit):
      Making an effort to discuss work issues with colleagues over the phone (Teams) when we have gone back and forth more than a few times on chat (this is on top of team meetings etc)
      Having some light personal chat on said calls (and on the team calls)
      Making a real concerted effort to do some social stuff outside work hours (rather than just letting things happen)

      My husband works for the same company though he’s able to work in the local office when he wants. So I do have company but it’s very hard not to talk shop and end up feeling like you’re at work 24/7! So another thing that helps – we walk the dog after work and once we get to a certain point in the walk (less than halfway), no more work talk.

      I’ll read this thread with interest because I’m still feeling a bit isolated/exhausted with the situation, even though it’s easier for me to be productive at home and I like the commute ;)

    25. ArlynPage*

      I’ve been working from home for 10 years, and I absolutely love it. I maintain a healthy social life by taking advantage of my neighborhood; I live in a walkable place and I walk either to the library or coffee shop or (more recently) walk my kids to school/daycare and naturally see the same people every day, but I also get involved in events in the neighborhood so at this point I sometimes feel like Belle in the beginning of Beauty & the Beast where she’s just walking around and the people of the town are all calling out “Bonjour!!” Highly recommend just trying to walk the same route every day at around the same time and start smiling at the people you recognize, it could turn into chit chat.

    26. allathian*

      I’ll admit it, my mental health is better now that I’m hybrid than it was when I was 100% remote, even if I only go to the office once a week or every other week.

      I do live with my husband and son, though, so I’m not completely isolated.

    27. Anax*

      I’m good with the level of social interaction – but I live with two partners, I have a couple of standing non-work ttrpg games and a number of friends I chat with regularly online, and I’ve also made a point of setting up social ‘coffee chats’ at work about once a week just to chat with other newbies and build a sense of camaraderie. If anything, the amount of social interaction can be a little much!

      This being said – if having a personal computer going is an option for you, there are some public Discord servers for ‘coworking’ or ‘body-doubling’, very much like Ewesername described. I would bet there are also quite a few Twitch channels for the purpose.

      I’ve done similar chats semi-regularly, and it does help a lot to break up the monotony.

    28. Decidedly Me*

      I socialize with work folks remotely :) Meetings tend to start with a few min of catch up, we have fun channels in Slack, a few work clubs (like book club), etc.

      Additionally, I try to have activities outside the house during the week (gym and music lessons for me). This is more to get me out of the house, but can also serve as a outlet for socializing.

      For the two screens issue – I have a portable external monitor that I use with my laptop when I do workcations. It would work just as well for coffee shop working.

    29. NottheBoomer*

      yep I am remote for over 4 years now. I use a chat feature to talk to coworkers but also my personal Facebook chat to keep in touch with folks during the day.
      I’ve found that making plans after work (even if is to talk with a pal) or during the weekend is paramount in keeping the isolation blues away.

    30. the cat ears*

      Do you have anyone you can work from home with? Any friends or relatives who also work from home, or who are retired but would love to have you over while you work and they do life admin, or stay at home parents who would appreciate having an adult come over to hang out for a few hours a week?

      Maybe working from a friend’s home or having someone come over to work from home would work better than coworking spaces and cafes. If you are going to someone’s house regularly you could set up a second monitor there (you may be able to plug into their TV or monitor if you don’t want to buy a new one).

    31. jmc*

      To be honest no I have no issues, I don’t miss being in an office, I don’t miss seeing people or dealing with other people. I love being able to control my environment, to be comfy in my home with the things that I love, and a bathroom to myself and a kitchen where I can cook whenever I want. I don’t miss commuting and trying to catch a bus. There is nothing like this and I want to stay this way forever.

      1. Packaged Frozen Lemon Zest*

        I relate to every single word of this. As a single lady in her 5th decade I sometimes struggle with generalized loneliness but I have Teams chats with my work friends, and my gym friends, and all the nice folks at my regular coffee haunt. The occasional mild social interactions with real life folks do not make up for how the office itself and non-remote work is the less-optimal scenario.

    32. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I joined a HEMA club and it’s been great for this. Like with work, we’re all there for a shared purpose and a fixed amount of time, so you’re not just showing up and being awkward at people until you awkwardly leave. But unlike, say, the gym, we’re there to interact with each other, not just do our own thing in the same place. Hitting people with swords may not be your jam (although consider it! I’m having a blast), but if you can find another hobby group or club where you like the *activity* enough to show up – model trains, lego, knitting, pigeon fanciers – that will help you keep coming back and get over the awkward phase where you don’t know anyone and have forgotten how to interact with strangers.

    33. Justin*

      I would go for dog walks/to the dog park. Or set up chat times with colleagues even if remotely. Or frankly plan lunches with colleagues even if only usually see each other in person.

      I’m like you in that being fully remote weighed on me after a while. Once my son’s daycare reopened and my wife also went back to her office I simply chose to go in twice a week (not required) for these reasons. So I empathize.

    34. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve been fully remote for ten years and would prefer to stay that way forever, but I am also the introvertiest introvert, like I am perfectly fine leaving my house once a week if that. That said, I do chat sporadically online during the day not only with coworkers on our Teams application, but also with my bestie via text and in a hobby-related Discord server.

    35. Same*

      I felt completely the same way, and honestly for me the solution was to switch to a job with a local office I could go into 1-2x a week. And reiterating that humans have a wide variety of needs when it comes to social interaction and there’s nothing wrong with wanting what you want here! It may be more or less difficult to get depending on constraints, but it’s not something wrong with you.

    36. Emmie*

      I have been working remotely full-time since 2015, and hybrid before that. I am introverted as well, lived alone, and feel uncomfortable in a lot of social situations. I struggled with much of the same during the first few years working remotely. Almost all my social interaction occurred at work. Prior to working remotely full-time, I was laid off from a job. I had no social life whatsoever! I realized, at least for me, that getting most of my social interaction from work was unhealthy.

      I made a conscious decision to fill my life outside of work. It was uncomfortable. I worked out regularly. I ran errands after work. I get my nails done during lunch. I moved to a walkable community so I could interact with my neighbors. I moved closer to family. I joined a professional group and started volunteering on its board. I also pushed myself to connect more with coworkers. I asked the typical niceties that people do at work, and they’ve turned into genuine friendships. I even work remotely from different states sometimes just to change things up – and get better weather! Working remotely is not for everyone. If you are open to it, perhaps incorporating some things to fill your “connection” battery might help. Life is not perfect. I still have those lonely days, but not as often as the early days of remote working.

    37. Jaydee*

      I have had 2 very different remote work experiences and have felt differently about both.

      Old job, pre-pandemic: I was assigned to a project where I worked most of the time at an off-site location. I interacted with people there, but not as closely as I had with my coworkers back at the office. I was the only one working off-site, so I constantly felt out of the loop about what was going on back at the office. I missed out on treats in the break room, water cooler conversation, etc. It was very much out-of-sight/out-of-mind. I felt isolated and sad.

      Current job, pandemic to present: Because of my past remote work experience I was able to pack my stuff up and switch to remote work easily. Since everyone was remote all of a sudden, our bosses did a good job of trying to maintain camaraderie. We had weekly meetings just to socialize. We were encouraged to chit-chat at the start of virtual meetings just like we would have for in-person meetings. Since then we’ve gone through various iterations of hybrid work, and there’s certainly more socializing when we’re in the office (it’s sometimes hard to get any actual work done those days) but because we work pretty closely with each other, we still find time for that social chatting in other ways, whether that’s at the start of a meeting or via text or chat. There’s also much better communication overall, and we’re all in more or less the same hybrid boat, so it’s much less isolating.

      So a few things you might want to think about:
      – Is the problem remote work, or is the problem the nature of your current job?
      – How often do you interact with your coworkers, whether that’s virtual meetings, chat messages, phone calls, email?
      – How much of that interaction is highly formal (meetings and emails that just focus on the work and nothing else) versus less formal with room for socialization (meetings with time for some small talk, group chats with work-appropriate jokes and memes)?

      If you have a fair amount of interaction with coworkers and it’s not feeling like enough, then maybe remote work isn’t a great fit for you and hybrid or in-office would be better.

      But if your work is more individualized with little collaboration or interaction with others, maybe it’s the nature of your specific job and not remote work in general. Maybe a job that’s still remote but where you’re having more virtual meetings and more collaboration and more opportunities to get to know your coworkers would be a better fit.

    38. mskyle*

      This is really hard for me too! I’ve always thought of myself as introverted but it turns out I’m not *so* introverted that I can work from home and live by myself and not go a little bit crazy. I was going to biweekly physical therapy for several weeks and it was often the highlight of my day, which is probably not a good sign!

      Basically when I worked in-person I had to prioritize “alone” time and now I have to prioritize “people” time and it’s been a weird adjustment. These are some of the things I’ve been doing:
      – I try to have *at least* 2 out-of-the-house social-ish things scheduled every week – I have a standing weekly choir practice for most of the year, sometimes I take art classes, I go to a a foreign language discussion group, I volunteer (there are places where you can volunteer in the evenings!)
      – I am more aggressive about making plans with friends/family, which doesn’t come easily for me but I’m trying to get better at it
      – I have a few go-to “out in public to be around people even if they’re not people I know/care about all that much” things I can do when I don’t know what else to do – I take a book down to my local brewery taproom and enjoy a beer (or sometimes even just a half-beer!) at the bar, I have memberships to a couple of museums that have evening hours at least once a week, and I right now I have an AMC Stubs membership so I can go to the movies anytime I want.

    39. Garblesnark*

      I was paying my friend to message me every weekday at 11am and ask me what I was supposed to do and if anything was preventing me from doing it. He resigned because his kids are home from school for the summer, so now I’m on free trials on online body doubling memberships. We’ll see!

      1. Ginger Baker*

        Ummmm…can you report back on this body-doubling program because your friend setup is maybe my ideal life…

    40. Nonanon*

      Not just you! 100% remote and my partner who works night shift, and oooh boy we both have to actively make sure we’re not each other’s only social support.
      Is it possible to do a group fitness class for your workout? I don’t know what you’re currently doing or what you have offered, but it is an option to break the monotony, see some familiar faces, and not have to go to a coffeeshop/restaurant or coworking space.
      Hopefully everything with your psychiatrist goes well and you’re able to get actionable responses from them, but if not, you can always switch providers to one that works better for you. Best of luck!

    41. Everything Bagel*

      I’m no social butterfly and really hated working in an open office situation, but since I’ve gone fully remote I found I do need some background noise, as long as it doesn’t interfere with work I need to really focus on. When I have a lighter workload that can tolerate it, I’ll put on the radio or a podcast. Often times I’m barely listening and will get through an entire podcast and realize I missed a lot of it, but it sometimes helps me to have voices in the background, though they are ones I can control!

      1. Everything Bagel*

        I forgot to make my main point here, which is that having voices in the background as opposed to music I guess makes me feel like I’m not sitting here alone all the time, even though I am.

        1. Keyboard Cowboy*

          When I used to work a desk job weekends around my student schedule (waaay before covid, think c. 2013) I got in the habit of opening music streaming in one browser tab, and a no-music ambient coffeeshop noise video in another. The voices and ambient noise really helped keep me focused/avoid me saying “nobody else is here, what am i even doing, this sucks, i want to go home”.

          I used that trick quite extensively in early covid days too.

        2. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

          I often put the TV on in the background, on something I have seen often so I don’t get sucked in

        3. Retired But Still Herding Cats*

          I think you just made a very insightful point.

          I spent ten years working from home as a medical transcriptionist. I lived alone most of that time in a rural area. Probably most weekends I’d have some errands to run, but not every weekend, so it wasn’t at all unusual for me to go two weeks straight without seeing another human. (I used to joke about hoping that if I died, someone would notice my work productivity had dropped before my cats had polished me off and had time to get hungry.)

          I’m seriously introverted, but the isolation was extreme enough that even I thought it was odd that it didn’t bother me. I wondered at the time if it was because I was listening to voices (the doctors’ dictations I was transcribing) 40+ hours a week.

      2. Alexis Carrington Colby*

        I love this! I’ll try to find some background noise and see if that helps. lol I hated open offices too

    42. Keyboard Cowboy*

      Is it enough to, not work from the coffee shop, but stop by for a morning cup and to make small talk with the barista/someone else waiting for their order? It might be helpful to try and identify which parts of the morning social stuff you miss – talking with anybody? or talking with anybody with some shared context? or something else?

      Your work might also have (or benefit from) a video conference based social group or interest group or something. This is probably more unusual – but my company is large enough that we have a bunch of people who knit/crochet/sew/whatever, and we have a couple social lunches every week that some of those people show up regularly to. I find that helps with the isolation because we’re not talking about work, but we do have enough shared context that we can joke about work hardships together (like “did you see that VP email about the TPS reports? what a nightmare, right?”)

      1. Danielle*

        This is what works for me—walk to a coffee shop in the morning, chat with people there, feel like I “arrived” at work, and then walk back home to actually do work, having encountered some people. If I worked 100% from home, I might add an evening “commute” some days, also, like walking to the public library or a bar or a gym class. (Clearly I need the social experience of starting and ending the workday for it to feel real. :-) )

    43. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Our office is hybrid, but we have some fully remote people and we socialize frequently on slack. We do use it for work questions, but we have a chatter thread that can be about just about anything.

    44. Not that Leia*

      I think this is such a great question, because I feel this too. I am mostly remote (one semi-optional day in the office) and find the intangible sense of light connection is very hard to foster either virtually, or via scheduled social events. Interestingly, I feel the sense of isolation you describe even though I WFH with a husband, kids AND dog, so for me, it’s not necessarily personal contact that’s missing, but specifically professional bonding and workplace relationships.
      So a couple of suggestions—if at all possible, could you coordinate an in-office workday with local colleagues? Or could you arrange to meet at a library or cooking space with others from your workplace? Second, even though it’s not quite the same, being more proactive in scheduling “social” zoom/phone calls with colleagues can help a bit. I kinda hate suggesting it bc I am also an introvert and that feels painful but making a new habit to talk to others outside of project work has also been beneficial . And third, agree with other posters about trying to incorporate socializing into workouts or other tasks—can you bring a friend to the gym? Or on a dog walk?

    45. Qwerty*

      Yep – this is why I switched to an in office job and a common complaint when I ask applicants why they are switching from a remote job to my team.

      Humans are social creatures. I’ve noticed most of the people I know who are happily remote tend to have a built in social structure (like a spouse or roommate)

      1. I Have RBF*

        IMO, what works for me is spouse, roommates, and professional and/or social groups that have shared communication areas, like Slack or Discord.

        I can talk about a pain point at work, and my roomies just blink in confusion. I can talk about it in generic terms in my professional groups, and they will either commiserate or even have suggestions.

        I’ve been in one professional group for over ten years – it started as an alumni job hunt group for people from one company, and just… expanded. At this point I have former coworkers from three jobs on there.

        This type of thing is invaluable for people who work remotely. The LW might want to ask around among their peers to see if this type of informal, Slack based group is available for their profession, or even start one themselves. (Caveat: The minimum for a self perpetuating group is about 25 members, of which about 10% are active.)

    46. Elle*

      This may not scratch the itch you’re trying to address, but have you tried chatting with your colleagues more during the workday? Since becoming fully remote, I’ve made a point to be more chatty with my colleagues via Teams.

    47. Higher Ed Expat*

      Our team went fully remote in 2020. We know that personal connection is important in maintaining a positive work culture. In our department it’s perfectly legit to just put occasional “coffee chats” on each others’ schedules to say hi and catch up. No work task required. It helps a lot with the feeling of disconnection from each other.

    48. Quinalla*

      I WFH all the time ever since COVID lockdowns and I’ll be honest, I don’t feel isolated at all. I am talking to people in meetings a lot of the day and on Teams chat all day long. I will say during the COVID lockdowns, I made a point to have interactions like you are talking about – usually as Teams chat, but also talking to folks for a few minutes at the beginning or end of calls – as I did feel a weird combination of isolated and overwhelmed since I was stuck in my house but I was also stuck in my house with my husband and my three kids. A lot for a introvert who really needs alone time. I haven’t stopped doing that and I think that helps me a lot. During lockdown we also did a weekly chat with my siblings & parents and that helped a lot too. We did stop doing that about a year ago.

      So if you can, add in some casual, light chatting, sending someone a funny article or meme, talking for a few minutes about the weekend, etc. Some workplaces have chats set up specifically for this. Don’t bug people who don’t reciprocate, but there will be plenty who are looking for these types of interactions too. And up your socializing outside of work too, you probably aren’t getting enough there either.

    49. Having a Scrummy Week*

      I have the same issue, and I am also introverted. I have actually been trying to get out of remote work because it is a bit too isolating for me. It is very normal to feel this way. Even introverts need other people, to an extent!

      I joined a gym with group classes that I very much look forward to attending, Monday-Friday. This helps me get out of the house on a daily basis. I also plan a date lunch or dinner with my partner (could be friends for single people) on Sat/Sun so I have something else to ook forward to.

    50. Observer*

      For those who work 100% from home, (1) does anyone else have a hard time because they aren’t socializing during the day? (2) have you done anything to help combat this?

      In a way, you could call this a “you” problem. But I would say that it’s much more a reflection of the fact that human beings are social creatures and staying in your house a whole day *is* actually very isolating for most healthy people. Especially if you don’t live with other adults.

      Making sure to run errands every day is actually not a bad way to ameliorate the issue. It gets you out of the house and hopefully causes some of the same kinds of casual adult interactions you are missing right now.

      I have a relative who recently retired and was going stir crazy. Not that they had deep meaningful conversations all the time, but still. . . Their solution is to make sure to have some errands planned for most days, and also to go out and get a coffee most days. They don’t want to actually eat out on a regular basis for a whole host of reasons, but coffee is coffee, and the stuff from a decent place is probably going to be at least a bit better than what you would make at home for most people, while not being terribly expensive.

    51. ialwaysforgetmyname*

      I am definitely introverted but I like to be around people even if I’m not constantly talking, and I work a hybrid schedule. We use Microsoft Teams at work and I regularly chat with people on that. A coworker complimented me recently for how I build relationships with others and I thank Teams for that. Put me at a party and I’m terrified to meet people, but I have found that I get amazing response when I message someone at work with “Hi! How’s it going?”

    52. CatMintCat*

      I thought I was a confirmed introvert until work from home hit. It’s long over now and we’re back on site, but even with family home in the evenings (all had jobs that couldn’t be remote), I felt very isolated. I was more than happy to go back.

      Not nearly the introvert I thought I was, apparently.

    53. WFHWoes*

      I’ve been working mostly or fully remotely for most of a decade now for medical reasons. A few things you can do:

      1. Have a Random channel in Slack or Teams or whatever that acts like a virtual watercooler

      2. If you have meetings with a coworker you’re friendly with, arrange to join early or stay an extra 5 minutes to catch up every so often

      3. If you have staff or group meetings that would permit it, join a couple of minutes early and chit chat with others until everyone joins. We have a Monday morning staff meeting and it’s pretty easy to chat with someone for 5ish minutes this way, and others join in as they join the call until you’re ready to start.

      You can also do things like take a lunch break and phone a friend (if that works within someone else’s work requirements) or, if you’re local and people are willing to meet up/be in groups, arrange a voluntary lunch or dinner or happy hour with coworkers.

      I would also note that there’s no requirement to interact in person to have a real connection with someone. I met many good friends online, and while I eventually met some in person, there are many more who are only pixels and text on a screen. They are still good friends, some of them for 30+ years.

    54. Wordybird*

      Yes, I deal with this all the time and am working on solving it for myself. I have some SAHM/D friends but no other local WFH friends (and I find trying to work around small children distracting) so sometimes I can schedule a quick call around lunchtime or naptime to catch up with one of those SAHM/D friends. My parents are local and retired so I’ve worked over there before in my mom’s office while she puttered/crafted/scrapbooked/read. I run errands when the weather is nice so I get out in the sunshine during the day and have the opportunity to talk out loud to things that are not pets. :) I make all of my medical appointments during the workday for the same reason.

      Mostly, I’m very intentional about socializing outside work hours. I volunteer with a local non-profit and our local LGBTQ center, I take online classes, I participate in a handful of message boards, I attend church regularly, I have date nights with my husband every other week, I plan outings with my kids the weekends we have them, and I am the person who plans all the things for my closest friend group (who goes out every 4-6 weeks). My goal is to leave the house 6 out of 7 days of the week and to talk to someone who does not live with me 7 out of 7 days.

    55. Roguelock*

      When I worked fully remote I signed up for CaveDay which I really enjoyed—daily online meetings with other people also working from home where you quietly cowork with each other for a set period of time. I found it really really helpful, especially because after a while you got to notice familiar faces.

  2. What is reasonable anyway?*

    I have a question regarding “reasonable accommodations” as this is a completely new topic for me. Some background, I have recently (within the last year or so) been dealing with extreme fatigue for an unknown as of yet reason. This is “can’t make it through an 8 hour day without a nap” sometimes “cannot get out of bed in the morning” level fatigue. I’m working through causes and treatments with my doctor, but in the meantime I’ve been using intermittent FMLA to cover my absences.

    My job, though, could be performed 90% remotely. In fact, the same position at sister companies that I work with frequently are remote. But working for the local County Government means that our Board of Commissioners wants butts in seats. Is asking to work remotely other than taking unpaid FMLA an option? Some days I can function enough to answer emails, update databases, and schedule meetings and calls, but I just can’t get up, shower, and get to the office.

    I’m starting to really feel the pain of 1-3 unpaid days a month, sometimes as much as a full week, and I’ve drained my bucket of sick, personal, and vacation time. I get 7 hours a month of vacation but I basically use it as soon as it is available at this point between bad days and doctors’ appointments.

    I’m just unsure of how to navigate the request and whether it can be considered “reasonable” if I’d be the only one in my office that is allowed to work remotely.

    1. KitKat*

      I don’t have direct experience with this and I’m sure others will chime in. But it *can* be a reasonable accommodation, depending on the specifics of your your job. Alison had a letter about this around the time that folks were being returned to work after pandemic closures — some info specific to that situation but it has a lot about WFH as an accommodation generally.

    3. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      You can always ask. It would help if you had an explanation from your doctor about how working remotely would be an accommodation for your particular condition (that you are mentally fully capable of performing the work but not physically able to travel to the office, for instance). You might not get the accommodation, or they may be willing to give it only partially, but it’s worth asking.

      Be aware that under your circumstances you’d need to clearly separate “I am working from home today” and “I’m too fatigued to work today”, so that your boss and co-workers don’t think you’re claiming to WFH and actually just napping.

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        I would probably only want it partially anyway. We are a small office compared to similar ones, so sometimes we need all hand on deck to deal with the public side of things.

        Differentiating between “home sick” and “home, but working” would definitely need to be communicated. As would my hours. Would I still do 8-5, which is out normal operating hours, or would I have more flexibility since I wouldn’t need to be in the office for coverage? Lots to think about.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          Yes, definably think about what your hours would be. Or maybe you could be flexible. Would half days in office work for you and then you can go home at lunch, take a nap and then work another 4 hours?

    4. DivergentStitches*

      I have successfully arranged for WFH 100% as a reasonable accommodation for autism, so I can manage my lighting and work area as needed.

      If your coworkers have an issue with it, they can take it up with their supervisors, at which point they should be shot down.

    5. Now retired*

      I went through this with an employer – I actually have two different part-time jobs and one job allow the accommodation and one did not so I left. What I do know about the process is that HR will work with you to decide if the accommodation is reasonable or if there are other alternatives to working from home. Depending on how reasonable your HR department is, they may be willing to accept this as an accommodation or they may have other suggestions that are not workable. It’s definitely reasonable to ask, but if there is another alternative, that would keep you in the office at least, such as a hybrid schedule, they may only be willing to consider that.

    6. CherryBlossom*

      I’m actually going through a similar “mystery” fatigue! It is, no pun intended, exhausting to try to figure out, much less deal with. You have both my sympathy and empathy.

      You can absolutely ask if WFH is an option for you. In fact, you can even point to all the FMLA you’ve been taking as a talking point to show that you’re not just trying to get out of “butts in seats” (not that that’s not a valid reason, but it can work on people who are otherwise set on being in-office).

      It’s a perfectly reasonable ask, especially when you have a valid medical need.

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      My go to resource for examples of accommodations is askjan.org.

      Do you belong to a union? If so, your steward may be a good resource prior to going to HR. Especially if those sister companies belong to the same union.
      Or just go to HR (or to your manager or whoever) and say “I’m in the midst of some medical diagnosing for an issue that can make it hard to get to the office on some days. If I don’t have to do the commute, I can be fairly functional if I could WFH, but if not, I would probably have to call in and not work for 1-3 times a month or more. I’d much rather work than not, and I think I could be more productive and less disruptive for the team as a whole if I could WFH either on a regular schedule or on the my “hard” days. Could we talk about mapping out a trial period where I could WFH some or all of the time until my medical situation is diagnosed and a plan made from there?:

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        A trial period is a smart idea! I have a decently close relationship with my Director, so I think she would be willing to work with me if HR approves. So that might be a good way to get HR on board.

        We are union here, and while I have never really worked with them at all, this might be the time to make my dues worth it!

      2. hypoglycemic rage*

        TIL askjan exists, thank you so much! My HR is pretty great and competent, but you never know….

    8. Annika Hansen*

      I have been following this issue, but I am not an expert. I am assuming that your job already has the infrastructure necessary for you to work remotely. If you can do 90% of job remotely, that means that 10% is needed on site. It is not usually considered a reasonable accommodation for someone else to do part of your job. (You could still ask. They can reassign work, but they don’t have to.) Is this 10% of your job a daily task? If not, then perhaps you could ask for a hybrid schedule.

      The ADA is an interactive process so you can’t necessarily demand a specific accommodation. For example, when you say you want to work from home because you need a dark space to lie down, your employer could say that they can provide you a space. You can check out the Ask Jan website for more information.

      I hope you can find some relief soon.

      1. Nightengale*

        The language on reassigning duties relates to whether the duties are “essential” vs “peripheral.” For example if a person is expected to lift 50lbs and this comes up once every few weeks, it is probably peripheral and may be able to be reassigned (depending on size of office, etc.) If this comes up all day every day it would probably be considered essential.

    9. Medium Sized Manager*

      From the manager side: reasonable accommodations is typically “could the job be done without being majorly changed.” So, if you work in a contact center, not taking phone calls is not a reasonable accommodation. But, if your job can be done remotely, it would be a reasonable accommodation. I hope you have success in navigating this!

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        Thanks for this perspective!

        Without being too specific, I work in an office that is mostly customer facing, most of my coworkers have a case load of clients that they meet with and we have walk in services that the public can utilize. My particular role is only working with other Businesses, so I don’t typically get walk-ins, and I have a company cell so I am reachable away from my desk.

        Honestly, it would be less disruptive to have me responding to emails daily, when able, since I do get some time-sensitive questions and unless they CC the other person in this role it sits unanswered.

    10. WantonSeedStitch*

      To me as a manager (though not one who gets to set HR policy), this would be a reasonable accommodation. It would make you more productive and prevent the burnout that would drive you somewhere else.

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        It would keep me more productive, for sure. As I mentioned to another comment, it would be less disruptive to have me responding to emails daily, when able, since I do get some time-sensitive questions and unless they CC the other person in this role it sits unanswered.

        The burnout is real though. I absolutely love my job and find it to be a good fit, but when I am dragging myself there just because I have cats to feed, it does cause some resentment. Oh to live somewhere with social safety nets…

    11. Working bee*

      I was wondering if anyone here has ever used an executive or leadership coach? I have been applying to new jobs but there are a few things (non-technical) that are holding me back based on feedback from my employer and after the interviews so I thought maybe working with a coach would be helpful. If you have, how did you find them? What did you do with them and how did they help?

        1. That's a Choice*

          A friend of mine in the arts recently hired a young employee in an assistant role, pretty fresh out of college. The employee ended up being very poorly suited for the role, was not picking it up at all, was pretty unreliable and just didn’t seem to have much common sense or orientation to details. It happens. My friend put her on a PIP and ended up letting her go.

          Here is where my question comes in. Since being let go, she has been trying to set up “lunches” with every creative she interacted with as an assistant to “discuss next steps.”. She updated her linkedin wildly exaggerating her role and responsibilities at my friend’s company. And she wrote an over the top, effusive recommendation letter claiming she had all kinds of skills and experience she doesn’t have “from” my friend, and emailed it to them asking them to sign it.

          This seems totally wild to me, but is there someone out there in the social media career advice landscape encouraging people to behave like this??

    12. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Yes, based on what you’ve said here it could be a reasonable accomodation.

      Do you have contacts with those sister companies that have your position as remote? If so could you talk with someone about how that has worked for the company? If you can give specifics details on the benefits (with emphasis for the company) then you might have a better chance.

      Maybe even see if for the next 3-6 months if they would allow you a trial with a hybrid workweek. Maybe every other day in the office or something. If you have a reasonable boss explain that it will be better for the company if you work from home rather than miss the day and be behind on work or making others pick up the slack.

      good luck!

    13. Anax*

      That’s my normal level of fatigue, so I feel you. Naps are a must.

      It definitely can be a reasonable accommodation, but a lot will depend on how open management is to remote work as an accommodation – and how worried they are about a lawsuit, honestly.

      Since covid started, I’ve had one job which approved remote work as a disability accommodation, no pushback at all. One which absolutely refused, to the point where I lost the job – EEOC ongoing. One where we’re all fully remote, but I’ve disclosed my disability openly with no issue.

      I hope this doesn’t cross the line into medical advice, but one possibility is POTS, which is often a big part of long covid, but isn’t well known inside or outside the medical community. Since covid is obviously going around, and you don’t need any significant symptoms to end up with long covid, that might be something to check for.

      (Especially because it’s easy to check for informally – take your heartrate while laying down. If it jumps by 30 bpm or more within five minutes of standing, then POTS is a strong possibility. Especially if you often crave salt.)

      That’s my particular flavor of chronic fatigue, and while it’s a pain, learning to manage it has helped a lot. LOTS of salt and hydration, lying down when needed, keeping out of the heat.

    14. NottheBoomer*

      I too have a ‘reasonable’ accommodation using intermittent FMLA. My doctor said (in writing) that lying down may be necessary for me during the day for ‘up to XX hours” and actually suggested WFH if it can be accommodated (I actually do WFH now but didn’t at my last company I needed this for). I was allowed to do a hybrid schedule, know that if I ended up WFH one day, then the next day I’d be in office.

    15. Turingtested*

      This is not legal advice but I have experience with the accomodations process. It’s important to demonstrate why the accommodation will help you get work done. You may not see things the same way, but it sounds to me like your commute can make the fatigue worse, and that by removing the commute you have more energy for work.

      One of the interesting things about the law is that your employer doesn’t have to accept the accommodation, and can make other suggestions. That’s where the interactive process comes in. Don’t be afraid to push back.

    17. Banana Pyjamas*

      If your county already has the infrastructure to support WFH then it’s a reasonable accommodation. The way government budgets work this could be an undue hardship to the employer if the infrastructure doesn’t already exist. Look to other departments to see if it exists, or even ask IT directly if there’s infrastructure to support working off-site. The fear of ghost employment among government folks is deep-seated and hard to overcome. During COVID we were at 50% staff f 6 hours each day. Only management worked from home.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Line item transfers could be an option if the cost to develop the infrastructure could be made up that way, but the approval process might include voting or be otherwise cumbersome.

    18. Garblesnark*

      As a fellow connoisseur of fatigue, I agree with the others and also wonder if there are other compromises you would be willing to make on your end.

      eg: in addition to a hybrid work accommodation, at my last job I also often scrubbed my hair and body with micellar wipes instead of showering, carpooled instead of driving, and got an intermittent use private office that I laid on the floor of sometimes.

      1. What is reasonable anyway?*

        I do thankfully have a private office and an hour lunch currently, so I am surviving on lunchtime naps when I am here!

    19. A Little Birdy Told Me*

      So I have a condition which makes me utterly exhausted every few months for a period of maybe a week, ten days. In my case it’s a ‘need to take a long lunch and a nap’ to make it through the day’ variety of tired, on an unpredictable schedule (it’s linked to my period, but there isn’t a 1:1 link; most months I’m fine or nearly fine, but every few…)

      Anyway, yes, at those times I have an informal agreement with my line manager that I don’t come into the office during those times unless there’s a SERIOUS reason for it. I think your situation seems like a reasonable adjustment on that basis!

      (Although it should be noted that we don’t have ANY mandatory days in the office, although team culture is to do roughly one day a week.)

    20. Rosyglasses*

      You can also go to askjan (dot) org. They are a free resource for employees and employers and help navigate laws around disability and ADA acccommodations — they have a livechat function that can likely help direct you and get you resources for your state!

    21. Dr. Doll*

      Really depends upon your organization. Here at my organization, it would NOT be seen as a reasonable accommodation. I hope yours will help you!

    22. The Bunny*

      Not necessarily.

      A reasonable accommodation doesn’t have to be what you want it to be. The employer has a lot of say as to what is and isn’t reasonable.

      They might be willing to allow you to be remote on the days you are too fatigued to be in, but it’s not a slam dunk that it’s reasonable to allow you to be fully remote.

    23. Bee*

      I am also a person with a mystery fatigue (probably long covid or other post-viral syndrome, recently diagnosed with POTS). It started when we were in the office full time, and I honestly think fighting through it constantly to go into the office is part of what caused it – I just could not get anywhere near the amount of rest I needed. I now only go in 2 days a week, and the difference in my ability to both recover from overexertion and carry on working through the bad days is VAST. So based on my experience, this isn’t only a useful accommodation for your own health, it’s something that will benefit them because you’ll be able to actually do more work. If you can, I would recommend working out a fixed schedule that has you working from home more days than you go into the office, not just working from home on the days when you can’t make it in. Our company is now hybrid for everyone, so unfortunately I can’t give you any tips on how to ask for that, but I just want to confirm your instinct that this is worth asking for.

    24. The Unionizer Bunny*

      To answer your name,
      https://askjan.org/articles/What-Does-Reasonable-Mean-A-Deconstructive-Series-for-ADA-Terminology.cfm

      I’m just unsure of how to navigate the request and whether it can be considered “reasonable” if I’d be the only one in my office that is allowed to work remotely.

      Because an accommodation is, by definition, an alteration to how things are normally done, an employer can’t claim “undue hardship” on the sole basis that they don’t provide it for anyone else. (This also helps protect employers from the “But then we’d have to do this for everyone and we can’t afford that!” protest.)

  3. Natalie*

    Removed because it’s not work-related but you’re welcome to post it in the Saturday thread.

  4. Jess R.*

    Training newbies! Let’s talk/commiserate.

    I have a new hire I’ve been training, and she’s genuinely great. She’s picking things up, she’s receptive to feedback and integrates it immediately, the ideal trainee. And also, even though I love it, I find training someone brand new *exhausting* because I keep running up against things I didn’t think about explaining (because they’re second nature to me). I do recognize this as a good thing — it makes me notice parts of the work I’d taken for granted — but also it just takes up So Much of my bandwidth.

    What’s your favorite part about training? Least favorite part?

    1. MyJobIsToFindYouAJob*

      I’m the complete opposite! I love having to explain the “why” of certain tasks and procedures when I am training since I find it a great opportunity to omit things that don’t have a good “why!”

      My least favorite part is that usually I’ve been doing the work of two for so long it has become normal and now I have to figure out how to dive tasks. And thus I am on AMA…. lol

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      Are we the same person? :) I have been training new hires continuously since pre-COVID, over 5 years now for a position with an 18 month-2 year training cycle. As for your realization that you keep realizing that there are things that you need to explain in more detail because they’re second nature to you, my only suggestion is to create a guide that you’re continuously adding to or very detailed e-mails that you save and recycle when/if you have to train someone brand new again. I am an extroverted introvert and frankly, all the human interaction that can take up most of the day, some days, is mentally (and physically) exhausting to me.

      My favorite part of training is the “AHA moments” when something really clicks and they get it on their own without needing any assistance. It also makes my nerd heart happy to see trainees who genuinely enjoy the work and are enthusiastic about it.

      My lease favorite thing really can’t be adjusted for….are people’s personalities and how quickly they learn and their learning style. I cannot stand people that I have to sit with and walk through something in-person because they cannot follow the step-by-step directions that are written (with pictures). I will do it and I don’t let on that I’m annoyed, but yeah, I’m annoyed.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        This is fascinating, FRM, because I’m someone who needs to do the task alongside the person training me and then I pick it up pretty quickly. But reading a manual doesn’t always stick in my brain, especially when it’s a sea of screen grabs for each step. I need to actually DO the thing before it clicks for me.

        That said, I would go through the whole handbook first and try to understand what that mean in my role so that I’m not starting from zero when working with a trainer in person.

        1. Former Retail Manager*

          I know that many people learn better with someone walking them through something and it’s more efficient than having them keep trying on their own, messing up, making corrections, trying again, etc. which is why I will never let on that it isn’t my favorite. And the goal is always for them to learn and be successful, so I’ll do whatever I have to do to make that happen. Everyone needs someone to sit with them on occasion, which is very normal. It’s the people that can’t/won’t do anything on their own that I struggle with.

          1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

            Completely fair. You want them to actually be engaged or else why are they even there?

          2. Frustrated Mentor*

            I totally empathize with this and have been struggling with it recently. It’s a fine line between helping and handholding. At a certain point, you can’t learn without trying.

    3. MuseumNerd*

      I love training and seeing how people process things. I think my favorite part is getting to know my new employees and how their brains work. But I also find it completely exhausting. I’m the boss and we do a week of intense training followed by a shadowing period, and after that first full week I completely crash.

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      My favorite part is when they start gaining confidence in their abilities! Watching them go, “oh, I get this, I can do this” is so gratifying. I actually really enjoy training newbies as long as they have a good attitude (paying attention, asking questions, and accepting differences between what we do here and other things they may have done at other places). I think the only thing I don’t like is when someone doesn’t ask any questions or say anything to show they’re thinking about the training. Sometimes “no questions” means “this is super easy and I have already gotten it 100%,” but all too often it means “I haven’t been paying close enough attention to realize I’ve missed or misunderstood things.”

    5. Apt Nickname*

      One reason I enjoy training is seeing our processes through new eyes. It really helps find those places where actions aren’t clear unless you already know what you’re doing. So then we make improvements and it’s better for everyone. I once trained someone on the spectrum and she required very concrete instructions. There were some steps that were a litte vague (think ‘pet the llama occasionally while grooming’) and having to specify ‘once every 10-15 minutes’ was beneficial for everyone. And it makes me a better trainer for everyone down the line.

    6. not nice, don't care*

      I enjoy training someone to the point where they can do the job, but also expand on training/current practice and find better ways to do it. I always tell new folks to learn it my way first, then sort out whatever workflow works best for them while still meeting the needs they were hired for.

    7. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      For me one of the hardest things is figuring out what work to assign someone who isn’t up to full level yet. I know what I can do with a more experienced colleague but I don’t want to set someone up for failure by giving them something too big or important for them to handle. But then I get stuck thinking “No, they can’t do this yet, not that either” and I know they will never learn that way.

      That’s the really exhausting part for me, the amount of searching to find an assignment that’s the right size for them.

      The good stuff is seeing growth, or sending a note to their grandboss with them copied saying how well they did today because XZY was a clutch performance, and also getting the enthusiasm or new perspectives that come with someone newer to the role/industry.

    8. Justin*

      Similar to you, each time I train someone I enjoy finding better and better ways to explain things. However, I am literally a teacher/trainer of adults by trade, so of course I like training.

      What I mostly hate are the checklist-y things HR makes me do (not the forms and harassment trainings, they do that) that aren’t relevant to my particular department.

    9. JustaTech*

      I really enjoy training people in our process because it’s fun to get time in the lab, and it’s a weird process so even experienced people are like “wait, and then you what?”
      In the beginning the most challenging part was realized that when I demo the process it takes about an extra 45 minutes to an hour, but when I watch the new person do the process themselves it often takes another 2 hours, just because they haven’t learned all the little physical tricks to making it go faster.
      That and it’s a *lot* of talking in a room where I can’t take a water break, so my voice is pretty fried by the end.
      The hardest part is training people who don’t want to be there, don’t want to take safety precautions, and that one guy who had to check his caps were screwed on 4 times for every step.

      1. Diatryma*

        Lab training is such a weird thing– it’s hands-on, but still has written procedures you have to read thoroughly (I’m in a medical lab, so they’re legal documents we have to follow) and a lot of knowledge and judgement in the background. I’m always happy when I can figure out the source of an error and a potential workaround.

    10. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      My favourite part is when they ask me something I actually don’t know the answer to (but is relevant to our area) so then we get to go and find out together!

    11. goddessoftransitory*

      We haven’t hired in a while, but when we were I was a go-to trainer: everyone loved me and wanted to work with me. Great, right?

      It was, but I found training to be really exhausting, for the reasons you listed. It takes tons of concentration, reiteration, and focus: I would sometimes have a stiff neck for days afterward due to the strain of going back and forth between computer screens, especially during the pandemic when we had to jury-rig everything to be six feet apart!

      It is nice to hear my manager reminisce about my method of learning to scan the ticket as “a leaf drifting gently to the ground,” though!

      1. Missa Brevis*

        Oh god, same for me. Training is a very occasional job duty for me, except right now I’m in a three month stretch where I’m training folks every other week.

        I keep getting feedback about how good I am as a trainer, how patient, how easy to follow my explanations are, etc, and I’m struggling to find diplomatic responses because what I really want to say is “well thank goodness someone had a good time because I certainly didn’t”. But obviously I’m not going to say that because it’s not our new folks’ fault that I find the training process exhausting.

    12. StarryStarryNight*

      Do you have a good balance between what info is available in training documents and what you personally have to teach them? I really enjoy training new hires because, as some people have pointed out above, their questions cast a new light on our workplace practices and sometimes help improve them. Also, particularly with younger coworkers, it’s just so motivating to show them something or make a suggestion, then see them run with it and grow.

      But none of this would be half as much fun if I first had to do a dozen rounds of “for job X, we use software Y, which you can access using link Z”, so I’ve always made sure our training documents cover this kind of stuff and are regularly updated. In fact, I’ve found it helpful to tell a new coworker: “As part of your onboarding and training, can you please keep track of what works well and where there’s room for improvement?” Then after a month of whatever is a plausible amount of time for your specific job, sit down with them and see what you can learn. It will make training the next person easier, and so on and so on.

      2. Diatryma*

        I keep pushing to separate our policy documents and our training documents; they have different purposes and shouldn’t be the same thing.

    13. Jasmine*

      My favorite thing is that my trainee right now takes copious notes and after the session says, “I learn SO MUCH today!”

  5. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

    I often struggle to come up with platitudes, especially where the details are non-specific, as they often are in the work place. I’d like to start a thread for your best platitudes to be used in a variety of situations. An employee’s/colleague’s sick day, retirement, new job, family illness/death, loss of pet, etc. I hope it’ll be a resource for myself and other overthinkers to refer back to when needed.

    1. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

      I’ll kick it off. For retirements, I usually go with “Best luck on your next adventure!”

    2. ThatGirl*

      Sick day – as in just an ordinary sick day? Probably nothing, or “Take care of yourself, feel better soon!”

      New job – “You’ll be missed! Best of luck on your new adventure!” (only if applicable haha)

      Family death – “I’m so sorry for your loss. May [his/her/their] memory be a blessing.” or “My condolences to you and your family.”

      1. English Rose*

        I kind of love “You’ll be missed”. I use it when it ain’t gonna be me who misses them, but someone else might.

      2. Packaged Frozen Lemon Zest*

        When my toxic manager finally left after 2.5 years I just signed his going away card “Good luck!” – the “you’re going to need it, because you have no idea what you’re doing!” was implied, lol.

    3. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      You can go for MILES with “best of luck,” “congratulations!” “have a wonderful time” “Hope it/you gets better soon,” and “I’m so sorry.”

      Bad news: I’m so sorry that happened to you.

      Good news: Congratulations! May you have the best of luck/May you have a wonderful time (depending on the type of good news)

      Someone is sick/injured: I’m so sorry. I hope they/you get better soon

    4. karriegrace*

      People struggle so much with condolences that they often just…don’t say anything! My Dad died in January and I just appreciated people who reached out in any way. ‘I’m so sorry for your loss’ is FINE. Just say something. There were people I didn’t hear from and it kinda felt bad.

      1. Healthcare Worker*

        I echo this! When my mother passed away many people said absolutely nothing, which really stung. I tried to think of it as they didn’t want to cause pain, but my thought was “really?”

        1. Ella Minnow Pea*

          When my dad died years ago, a colleague I hardly knew left a beautiful card on my desk with simple condolences. I was touched to the core and 20 years later, I have never forgotten his kindness. Say something, even if it’s just “Thinking of you.” It will mean more to them than you know.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            I got a sympathy card for my manager when his cat passed, and a “thinking of you” one when his current kitty had a very scary health crisis (he’s doing much better.) He still has the current on up on his desk. It can mean a lot.

      2. Sleepy in Grey*

        I echo this too. LOTS of people disappear when you’re grieving, and it’s the very worst timing. So isolating.

        Useful paragraphs to write or say:

        “I was/am very sorry to hear about your loss. It is hard to know what to say, but I just want to let you know that you’re in my/our thoughts.”
        “Hi [X], I imagine you’re having a challenging time at the moment, and I just wanted to let you know you’re in my/our thoughts.”

        Things not to do:
        Don’t text/message them out of the blue with just the question, “How are you?” This question can be exhausting to try and answer. Instead, say something like the examples above. (And if they start confiding in you about how they’re doing, you can take their lead then and get into that conversation about how they’re doing.)

    5. a few platitudes*

      For sick days, “Oh no! Feel better soon!” or “Sorry to hear that! Get some rest!” Maybe also “Let me know if there’s anything I can cover while you’re out” if I’m on their team.

      For a new job (if it’s a colleague leaving your office), “We’ll miss you! Best of luck in your new position–I know you’ll do great.” Or you can make it slightly more personal by replacing the first sentence with “We’ll miss you and your [snarky office memes/copier wizardry/delicious baked goods]!”

      For a new job (if it’s a new colleague joining your office), “We’re so glad to have you here! I’m excited to work with you.”

      For deaths, miscarriages, or other tough situations, “I hope you are finding moments of peace in this difficult time.”

      For a non-specified family emergency, “I hope all goes well for you and your family.”

    6. mreasy*

      “Sending my best to you and your family at this time.” (for emergency)
      “I’m so sorry for your loss.” (Always approriate imo. For a pet you can also say something like “You gave Fuzzy so much love and such a great life.”)
      “So sorry, I hope you feel better soon” (for illness) and/or “I hope you have a mild case” (for COVID) and you can always mention something about the bug going around to be extra chatty.
      Retirement/new job/new house/etc: “Congratulations, I’m so happy for you!”

    7. WantonSeedStitch*

      Sick day: “Sorry to hear it, rest up and feel better soon!”
      Retirement: “We’ll all miss you, but I’m so glad you get to relax and enjoy some new adventures!”
      New job: “Best of luck! We’ll miss you around here. (And if true: “I’d love to keep in touch.”)
      Family illness, mild: “Sorry to hear it, I hope they feel better soon.”
      Family illness, serious: “So sorry to hear about that. (Sometimes: “if you need any time off to care for them, let me know/reach out to HR.”) Can also include: “remember our EAP is available if you need that kind of help or support.
      Family death: “I’m so sorry for your loss. I hope you have the comfort of some wonderful memories and all the support you need in this time.”
      Pet death: “I’m so sorry for your loss. [Pet] was very lucky to have such a loving home with you.”

    8. knitcrazybooknut*

      For general grief: Grief is just love with nowhere to go.

      For pet death: We never have enough time with them. They had a great life with you.

    9. CherryBlossom*

      Hello fellow overthinker! The good thing to remember is that people often aren’t expecting much from their coworkers unless you’re particularly close, so just the standard stock phrases are more than enough. Here’s my go-to list of phrases for common yet vague situations:

      Sick day: Oh no! Hope you feel better soon!
      Retirement/New Job: Good luck on your next adventure! You’ll be missed! (Good to say if you won’t miss them personally, since it’s not a lie)
      Lay-offs: I’m so sorry; you’ll be so missed around here.
      Family/Pet loss: I’m so sorry for your loss.
      Family illness for light illnesses (cold, flu, food poisoning): Hope they feel better soon!
      Family illness for serious illnesses: I hope they’re on the upswing soon. (Upswing implies the same thing as “get better soon”, but without the expectation of healing/cures/recovery if you’re not sure.)

    10. ArlynPage*

      This is one of the few times I use chatGPT. I ask it to give me an example message and then I always end up re-writing it to sound more like me, but it really helps me to have a starting point.

    11. Kes*

      Sick: Sorry to hear that, hope you feel better soon
      Someone leaving the job: It was great working with you (if true). You’ll be missed (if true – note this doesn’t necessarily have to mean missed by you). All the best with whatever’s next
      Family death: I’m so sorry for your loss

    12. Busy Middle Manager*

      I think you need to find someone to emulate. This may sound ridiculously random and specific, but I had been watching reruns of Murder She Wrote and stole some lines from Angela Lansbury. Why? Because I am very introverted but like people. That show has her constantly mingling with new people and making small talk, navigating board rooms, police departments, restaurant openings, art shows, concerts, cocktail parties, theater intermission, and the likes. I also struggle with those platitudes and generic phrases, so I stole a few from her and they work well in the real world and also make you seem level headed :-/

    13. RagingADHD*

      I actually used to read etiquette books like Miss Manners to get ideas, because there are so many situations where you want to say something gracious but the actual content isn’t necessarily personal. I prefer short and classic.

      Sick day: “Sorry to hear that, take care!”
      Retirement: “Best wishes!”
      New job: “Congratulations!”
      Family illness / death: “I’m sorry to hear that” or “My condolences on your loss.” Followed by: “I’m happy to cover X for you if that would help.”

      1. RW*

        I always used to find the term condolences overly stiff, but I’ve fallen in love now! I’m a GP, and I often call family if one of my patients passes away, and straight up saying “I just heard the news and wanted to offer my condolences” does everything imo
        (depending on whether I know the family as well as the patient, this may turn into a proper conversation, or it may well end there…)

    14. Can't remember my username*

      Can I recommend the book “There is no good card for this”, its useful as a general book to build how to respond to people when bad things happen in their lives, and at the back, there are essentially cheat sheets of what to say when things aren’t great.

      That said:
      “I’m so sorry”
      “Congratulations”
      “How are you feeling?”
      “Good luck (on your next adventure etc)”
      will get you a long way for most things.

      Keeping it simple really is the best way.

    15. Lbj*

      When people share about a person or pet they’ve lost, I like to say “thank you for sharing them with us” or that I liked getting to learn or hear about them. And if it seems true, “I bet they were so proud of you” (for a person) and “I bet they were so happy to be with you (for a pet)

    16. beware the shoebill*

      When a coworker leaves/retires, I usually pull out this quote by Ursula Le Guin:
      “The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible that it does not exist.”

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        This is weird. Retirement is not unimaginable, and casting your workplace, or the working world in general, as Omelas is doubly weird. Even if people don’t recognize the context, and not everyone will, they’ll find it odd.

      2. Snoozing not schmoozing*

        That would elicit a big ol’ eyeroll and an “Okey dokey, then.”

    17. Sleepy in Grey*

      Having dealt with serious illness, I stay away from saying “feel better soon”, “get well soon”, “I hope you are feeling better”, and so on. Why? Because…often, ill people are not going to feel better soon. I know the words are very well meant, but unwittingly you’re putting a burden on the ill person – either to grin and bear it and say, “thanks!” (while privately thinking, “I am not going to be better soon, but I’m too tired or self conscious to say that”) or to put energy into explaining that they can’t expect to feel better soon. Either way, you’re giving them a small communication challenge/task, and if they’re ill they could be profoundly tired, so an extra task could be a burden. Plus, they could be getting the same kind of communications repeatedly from different people, and that really adds up.

      You could try instead something like:

      “I’m sorry to hear you’re sick – I hope you’re able to get some helpful rest and TLC.”
      “I’m sorry to hear that you’re sick. Sending our best wishes from the office.”

  6. Hiding My Belly M-F*

    I started a new job two weeks ago, which I applied for in February. I’m currently 21 weeks pregnant and have not disclosed this yet at work. My boss isn’t at this location but we’ve built a good professional relationship and speak frequently as I onboard.

    So, when is the best time to break the news and err… how? I’m not as worried about the job protection part but I’m in communications. We’re a very relationship-based. They were very eager to fill this role so I also worry about my onsite relationships. I may have disclosed it at the time I accepted the offer but I had been laid off for several months and didn’t want anything to hinder actually getting the job.

    1. But maybe not*

      I would want to break the news sooner than later. The longer it goes, the more awkward it gets. I think it’s okay to acknowledge when you tell them that you haven’t been able to find the right time. Do you have an idea of your maternity leave plans? That can help guide the conversation so you aren’t dwelling on the “I’ve known awhile but hadn’t told you…” part.

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        If you want a white lie to help you smooth the “I knew and didn’t tell you” part, vaguely mention that you needed additional tests recently to ensure that everything was OK with the pregnancy and are happy to report now that things are determined to be fine. A reasonable person will drop the urge to be irritated at not knowing at hiring time.

        1. But maybe not*

          It might not even be a lie – there are plenty of people who don’t wish to tell others until the anatomy scan at 20 weeks.

      2. JSPA*

        Alison has suggested that it’s fine to wait, and many comments have pointed out that if you don’t need to explain nausea or smell sensitivity, it’s often wise to wait a bit longer. Depends in part how much leave you get; how much of it you plan to take in the first weeks (if it’s divisible); if you think you’d actually feel better working a few days a week, rather than full leave (etc etc).

        If you anticipate any negative feelings (not that they’d express them discriminatorily, but just some vague sense of “ah, heck”) there’s,

        “I wanted to let you know the happy news that I’m indeed pregnant– which we thought had been ruled out–not suffering some progressive disease. We’re over the moon!”

    3. Star-Bellied Sneetch*

      Absolutely do it sooner rather than later! And honestly, you can skip right over the “I had known but hadn’t told you” part because it isn’t really relevant. Treat this like a normal maternity leave conversation. “I want to let you know that I’m expecting a baby, and I anticipate going on maternity leave around [date]. I plan to take X weeks of leave, so I’ll be returning to the office on [date]. I’m committed to preparing well so that my leave will be as smooth as possible for you and the team.” (Obviously you don’t have to follow that exact script, but those are the main points.) Given your situation, you might add something like “I’d like to seek your guidance on what I should prioritize during the time before my leave.”

      2. M2*

        I would look over benefits and your policies first and tell them right away. If you’re in the US since you haven’t been there for a year you are not protected with FMLa. The sooner you tell them I feel the more they will be likely to work with you on leave and coverage when you are gone.

        I have friends and have hired someone who went in mat leave after only being in a role 4 months. I had to go to bat for them with HR because we offer 6 months of paid leave on top of whatever vacation or sick you have banked but at the time I believe you had to be here a year maybe 10 months.

        I had another friend (a few years ago) whose company only offered 4 weeks paid on top of whatever she could bank because she had not been on the job a year so she had to go back after about 6 weeks which was not ideal. another who was offered 12 weeks but all had to be unpaid. I feel more and more companies are more understanding now but it might mean you can have the time but it is unpaid.

        The sooner you tell them and find out the leave policies the better. Look over and read all benefits and policies. I would be way more likely to go to bat for someone who was open and honest with me instead of someone who waited weeks or months to tell me upon hire (as long as it was at the time to tell if they waited a few months because of waiting that’s totally fine).

        Good luck and congrats!

        1. ShortTermDisability*

          If you have short term disability coverage it will usually kick in for maternity leave so you’d get paid after the first week. However, eligibility is usually based on a combination of the amount of time you’ve worked at a company and the amount of time the insurer thinks is medically reasonable for the initiating incident.

          For example, I had an emergency hospitalization about 15 months after starting a job. I was eligible for a maximum of 6 weeks of short term disability leave (including the one week waiting period for which I used sick time) no matter my medical condition. The insurance company got all of my medical records from the hospital and decided that medically I needed all 6 weeks, but had they decided I only needed 3 that’s all I would have gotten.

          My best friend, who had been working at her company for quite a few years, got 3 months of short term disability when her daughter was born. She could have taken another month unpaid by their policy, but that wouldn’t have qualified for the disability payments.

          Your mileage may vary and chances are good if you’re new you wouldn’t qualify for a very long paid maternity leave, but it doesn’t hurt to ask.

      3. M2*

        That might actually rub some people the wrong way especially if they have only been there for a few months. The company may not provide all that leave and if in the US you aren’t protected for FMLA so I personally would look at the policies and benefits first then tell them and ask about parental leave coverage. If it’s in the handbook anyone gets X weeks paid great you know the answer, if it’s vague or they say after X months of service you get X weeks of paid leave then you need to have the information so you are better able to advocate for yourself.

      4. goddessoftransitory*

        This: this is a normal and happy life occurrence, not some sneaky, shady thing you’re being forced to reveal. Treat it as the former and any decent boss will as well.

      5. Quinalla*

        Yup, I agree with this, just schedule a meeting or tack on to your next one-on-one and have it very matter of fact. Don’t talk about how far along you are, just say when expected maternity leave is and how long you plan to take.

        I’d look into any company policies/handbooks first and then ask about that stuff too. If you have HR, have a conversation with them next about how soon you need to get baby on insurance after birth (if applicable), etc.

        If someone does have the audacity to ask why you didn’t tell them when getting hired, I’d just say you weren’t ready to disclose until now. There are people who wait far longer to disclose even though they are obviously pregnant and some who waiting much longer during lockdowns when WFH as no one knew.

    4. Do as I say...*

      Don’t do what I did! I was waiting to give the news after a big event. Then I had pregnancy complications and had to tell my bosses that I would miss the big event, due to my pregnancy that they didn’t know about.
      Eventually I had a healthy baby and eventually my bosses trusted me again, but I would recommend telling them soon.

    5. Dandylions*

      Just share it now if you are comfortable. I eant d to let you know I’m pregnant and expected due date is date.

      While 22 weeks is a bit later than most it’s not egregiously so.

  7. TechWorker*

    I have an employee with imposter syndrome. They are not a strong performer but have shown promise in some areas and they are above the level where we would actively consider a PIP or managing someone out. There’s other mental health stuff going on for them too. We are trying to support them as best as possible – but I do think they are smart and capable and to be honest – might well do better in a different job/company where they can excel rather than being mediocre (& their internal monologue then telling them they’re useless). But if someone is already suffering from imposter syndrome and a feeling like they don’t belong, any indication from us that they might want to consider other roles is going to make things worse…! Any way to phrase this that doesn’t sound like we’re about to let them go?

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      I wouldn’t, it’s really not your place. If they’re doing well enough to avoid a PIP, then I think you should mind your own business in that regard. If their insecurity is causing problems for their coworkers, then that’s another story, but you’d want to have the conversation about not burdening their coworkers with their personal feelings, not about them going elsewhere.

      2. Ready for the weekend*

        Same. Does your office offer any EAP services or encourage her to pursue a coaching service?

    2. ecnaseener*

      This is tough because, well, they’re not a strong performer and you don’t think they’re a good fit for your team. So if they’re having feelings of “I talked my way into this job that I’m not actually good at, people are expecting me to be more competent than I actually am, this sucks” is that really imposter syndrome or is that a person being honest with themself?

      But I guess either way, your approach should be the same — total honesty, no sugarcoating. (“Radical candor” may be useful?) If you sugarcoat, they’re not going to believe you when you say you honestly think they could excel at XYZ.

      1. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

        This. I think that being straightforward about “stuff you could work on”, paired with “stuff you’re good at”, might undercut the internal monologue a little, because they have evidence that you will in fact tell them if something isn’t working. Asking for this kind of feedback has done wonders for my imposter syndrome, because it frees me from thinking “omg everyone is secretly thinking terrible things”. If people don’t give me the feedback I have explicitly asked for, that’s on them, not me. I do stress that I need both kinds of feedback, but but it’s truly helped.

    3. Tio*

      Is it really imposter syndrome? It kind of sounds like they AREN’T suited for the role, but you just want to believe them into doing better. If they’re just skirting the edges of being put on a PIP, then you want to be upfront and clear with them on their position and what you want to see from them. Ther may be some imposter syndrome or other issues at play, but the best thing you can do for them is be honest. If the truth about their position means that they can’t handle doing it or start doing worse, there really isn’t much you can do about it

      1. TechWorker*

        Yes, this is a fair comment.

        I think the reality is that they are not a strong performer but they are doing well enough and if they were happy in the role we would be happy to keep them, keep going with training etc. We do provide feedback and are not going over the top trying to make them believe they’re doing amazingly or anything like that.. but the imposter syndrome is that they see themselves as completely useless, feel as if everyone else knows they’re useless and they are offering no value at all. Which is *not* true.

        1. Tio*

          You can tell them a version of that then – “We believe you’re doing ok in this role and can continue to improve and contribute, but we want to make sure you’re also happy in the role. Is this something you want to continue on with?” You can’t talk them out of imposter syndrome if they have it. So if they are struggling with feeling like they don’t fit, the kinder thing might be to help them find a role they think they do better at. Better that than let their stress over not doing well enough – real or perceived – make them unhappy.

          If you do talk to them, try and have some areas to improve but areas you also think they’re doing good at. The harder it is for you to come up with any of these, the more telling about whether they might not be in the right role.

      2. Busy Middle Manager*

        Yeah this is not even imposter syndrome. We’re not mincing words. This is low or mediocre performance.

        Imposter sydrome is being a good or great performer but thinking you’re not good.

        So this is a false dichotomy that has been created. As I’ve said before, feeling bad about your performance can be a good think when you are not performing well, and it probably applies here. Their gut is telling them to improve

        1. TechWorker*

          Okay – I was using it to also apply to ‘I am ok performer but I think I am absolutely terrible’ – which I think is ‘within reasonable usage’ but feel free to disagree :)

    4. jasmine*

      This might be more applicable to anxiety than imposter syndrome, but considering both warp your view of reality…

      I think being honest is the best thing you can do. Pretending things are great when they aren’t is counterproductive. The key to these things is being grounded, and you can’t really turn off the voice in your head saying, “they’re secretly not telling me things to spare my feelings” if that voice is, well, right.

    5. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Used sparingly, I have had success sometimes with framing a person’s performance against their peers’ (a group of peers, like the group of my direct reports or all the employees in that specific role, NOT “Bob does this right, why can’t you?”).

      Sometimes it’s a person who isn’t necessarily doing anything wrong by providing me status updates, but they update me constantly and I’m trying to better explain that they’re an outlier on it and I don’t need so many updates – “you probably don’t realize but you send me updates about 4x more than anyone else on the team. I appreciate being in the loop but I need you to wait to send me 3 updates at once, or, the bar for what I need updates on is a higher than you think it is”.

      In a different example, closer to your issue, an junior employee really perked up once I explained they shouldn’t be comparing themselves to their most senior peers with 10 and 20 years’ experience in the field. The comparison was making their imposter syndrome worse because they kept aiming too high and failing. A big reframing conversation was a game changer, because I realized they were frustrated with not producing the same level of work. I didn’t need them to be producing that same level of work, I needed them to get better at more basic building blocks of the job and to trust that I was assigning them the kind of work that would send them on their way to becoming as good as their senior-level colleagues. (I thought I had been explaining this all along and they weren’t hearing it, which is a whole other thread).

      They are never going to be a superstar, I can tell, but it helped them to bypass some of the roadblocks that were holding them back from better work.

      1. TechWorker*

        Thank you! This helps, the middle paragraph is maybe something to stress. They do work with someone who’s been 20 years on the job and can be a bit prickly when their advice isn’t understood & taken first time, so that definitely doesn’t help.

    6. RagingADHD*

      What is the work-related problem you are trying to solve for?

      Them having imposter syndrome is not your problem. It is not your job to make sure they are emotionally well adjusted and content with their life, that’s way too personal for you to intrude on. So what performance issues or team relationship issues need to be addressed?

      Are they whining and spewing negativity? Are they failing to improve on job duties that they need to become independent on? Are they sucking the air out of the team caretaking their emotions? Focus on behaviors that affect the work and the team, and give them actionable feedback on what outward behavior needs to change.

      Their internal monologue is their own business.

      1. TechWorker*

        So yes, there’s time spent by their direct manager (not me) reassuring them. But their imposter syndrome also comes out in other ways, if they are spiralling they become *less* competent at the job because the lack of confidence means they start to ask questions they do infact know the answer to, which impacts other people on the team. But yes, agree should try to separate ‘what we can control’ (work results) and ‘what we can’t’.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I think the more matter of fact you and the direct manager can be about what they are doing well and what specific skills they need to work on, the better. So maybe you need to approach it like an informal PIP by giving them metrics they can use for themselves to track their improvement.

          Be sure to tell them when they are doing well and what was good about it, as well as giving them specific actions to help them improve. The more concrete the feedback, the better. Then the manager can point them to the metrics rather than giving vague personal reassurance.

    7. Qwerty*

      This is not imposter syndrome. You describe them as mediocre. Of course this person thinks they don’t belong! It sounds like the role is not a good fit. Not performing well really takes a toll on someone, especially if they like the work that they are not succeeding at.

      You have to really careful when reassuring them so that you don’t paint too rosy of a picture of their performance in trying to combat the problems that need to be worked on. Its also possible that their performance could get worse and land them in the PIP area – at that point it’ll get really sticky if you told them 6months prior not to worry about a PIP. Or the company could hit an unexpected bump or restructuring that causes layoffs that impact your team, when you might have to decide to let them go in order to keep those who do fit the existing role.

  8. need clothing advice*

    Hey all! My (relatively new) job got us baseball tickets — any suggestions as to what to wear? It’s Texas so it’ll be a million degrees outside. We’re a fairly casual culture (nobody is wearing a suit and tie to work, we occasionally swear, etc.) but I don’t know if showing up in a tank top and jeans is too much.

    1. Now retired*

      If it’s going to be hot, I would wear light pants and not jeans. And if I wore a tank top, I definitely have a light shirt to go over it for the sun.

      1. Artemesia*

        Jeans are too hot — but acceptable if you want to wear them — I’d be wearing something ver light weight like linen or even something like rayon boho pant. Tank top with a lightweight shirt as a sort of jacket over it. this protects from the sun and you can always take it off if you feel it is appropriate once you are there.

    3. MyJobIsToFindYouAJob*

      Is this something they have done before? If so, ask a coworker!
      But otherwise, if jeans are normally acceptable, I would 100% wear them. And you can always find a lightweight jersey to wear over a tank top and adjust accordingly once you are there. I can’t imagine that anyone would look down on your wearing sports apparel to a sports game.

    4. Forest Hag*

      Hello from Texas! :) I think a sleeveless top or a t-shirt and longer shorts would be fine. I have been to baseball games during the summer here with my workplace, and it’s just too hot and humid to wear much of anything else, especially if you are in some of the more southern cities. I would wear something like a basic, solid color t-shirt and bermuda shorts. And definitely wear a hat.

      1. MikeM_inMD*

        But do not wear a hat that will block the view of anyone behind you!

        And it might not be wise to wear anything with the logo of a rival team or the visiting team, unless you are passionate about them and are willing to put up with jokes and harassment.

    5. Alisaurus*

      Do you have a coworker you trust to ask? If the job has done this before, I’m sure they’ll have suggestions!

      I know office cultures are all different, but my casual team would absolutely be okay with someone wearing shorts (as long as they’re not daisy dukes or something lol) and a sleeveless top if we went to a game together. We’d all be about comfort over looking “professional” when going to a scorching outdoor event.

    6. Ghee Buttersnaps*

      Could you check with your co-workers to see what they plan on wearing? I’m thinking the ones who’ve been there a while may be able to steer you in the right direction. I would think you’d be perfectly OK with a sleeveless top (I wouldn’t wear spaghetti straps, but that’s just me) and shorts (probably not overly short). Just my two cents! :)

    7. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Definitely ask a coworker, but everywhere I have worked that did casual outings people dressed appropriately for the outing. Meaning neat, clean, not showing too much skin, but what one might wear if you were taking yourself to the game on your own. Meaning if it was hot, probably not a tank, but definitely a short sleeved tee and longer cargo/bermuda type shorts or a lightweight casual skirt. Jeans sound miserable in the heat to me but would probably be professionally fine.

      1. need clothing advice*

        It’s in the afternoon — not sure what the rest of the org is doing, but my team has decided to reschedule any meetings + work remotely that morning before heading to the game.

        1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          In that case I’d wear whatever is comfortable, but avoid colors of the visiting team.

    9. My Brain is Exploding*

      I have found that lightweight pants are better than shorts; something about the sun beating on my bare legs is very uncomfortable. The last baseball game that I went to wearing shorts I wound up covering my legs with a towel I’d brought to sit on.

    10. Sparkle Llama*

      This is only an option for people who wear skirts, but I am in a business casual office that leans more towards casual and most of us use athletic skorts for this purpose – think ladies golf. If I have something to do outside for part of the day I will wear the skort to the office and whatever I have outside. They are also incredibly comfortable in my experience.

    11. Panicked*

      Hello fellow Texan! I’ve been to many a baseball game here. Whatever you wear, just be prepared to sweat. I have worn everything from jeans and a t-shirt with a ball cap to a sundress to a wide leg linen jumpsuit. Wear a hat, it really does help!

    12. BaseballGame*

      My company has done baseball games a few times and everyone just wore normal/casual off the clock clothes. I personally wore shorts and a team shirt. No one cared or said anything and everyone else was similarly dressed.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        Agreed – my boyfriend’s workplace occasionally offers a bunch of tickets for a group of them to go and everyone just shows up with what they’d normally wear to a ball game. The last one we went to I wore shorts and a team shirt, pretty sure my boyfriend wore a t shirt and shorts too.

    13. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think you are over thinking this because its tickets from work. Wear what you would normally wear to a baseball game. T-shirt or tank and shorts. Big hat and lots of sunscreen. This is not a work thing everyone else will be wearing similar outfits and no one is going to think twice.

    14. Ashley*

      If you have anything with the team name on it you can typically lean more casual. Given the temps a tank top with a cheap jersey (the knock off style not the full heavy ones) left open might work. If you do want a tank top I tend to lean towards having something I can wear over it if I feel I need to get dressier.
      I have had sales classes followed by a game where a lot of people where dressed up for the day and changed to really casual for the game so the office dress code doesn’t always hold. That said if clients or customers are going with you I tend to dress a little fancier then if it is just my co-workers or if I my sales person is taking me to the game.

    15. Dust Bunny*

      Nice jeans are probably OK but for weather conditions, if I were you I’d go with light pants and a lightweight woven shirt, both to look nicer and because wovens are cooler than knits.

      –Houston

    16. theletter*

      Loose shorts (or a skirt/dress) in a light fabric that reach to about your knee, plus a top in a light fabric that completely covers any top underwear you choose to wear. You’ll want the long shorts because it’s very easy to burn the tops of your thighs when sitting outside for long periods of time.

      You’ll want a hat that shades your face, and sunglasses! Even on a cloudy day, the long exposure can be difficult. Consider getting a baseball cap supporting the home team, for comfort and camaraderie!

      Jeans are fine for games but torture in hot weather. There’s lots of natural and synthetic fabrics that do great in hot sticky weather. You’ll want to pick something that fits loose so you can feel any breeze that comes your way!

    17. Harrowhark*

      Fellow Texan here. The key question is: What stadium will this be in?

      If you’re going to see the Texas Rangers, bring a sweater because they keep Globe Life Field freezing in summer.

      If you’re going to see the Houston Astros, dress in shorts and a tank top / tee shirt because even when they close the roof, it’s still warm in there (the roof doesn’t seal completely).

      If you’re going to see one of the minor league teams in an open stadium, wear shorts and a tank top/ tee shirt.

      I’ve been to Rangers games with co-workers both in the old, open stadium and in the new, can-be-closed Globe Life stadium. Only the men at the highest C-levels wore anything close to business clothes, and even then it was lightweight khakis and a polo shirt or lightweight button-down shirt. Everyone else was in shorts or jeans and t-shirts (or tanks for the women).

      1. need clothing advice*

        Thank you so much for this! It is Globe Life Field and I didn’t even know it could be closed. I’ve literally never been to a baseball game before :)

        1. Lady_Lessa*

          I’m not a baseball fan, but it might make sense if there’s time before the big game to catch a minor league one first. You are closer to the field and it seems more interesting.

      2. Somewhere in Texas*

        A+ comment here. Recently went to 2 Astros games. One was with work and I wore shorts and a sleeveless top with no regrets because *fire and sun emojis*

      3. PropJoe*

        “ If you’re going to see the Texas Rangers, bring a sweater because they keep Globe Life Field freezing in summer.”

        This is much better than how it was in 2014 when I bought a super cheap ticket to a July home game and didn’t realize until I got to the stadium that I had signed up to sit behind third base for a mid-day game. Never again. Most miserable game experience I can ever remember having.

    18. Mitchell Hundred*

      I’ve never been to Texas, but based on what I know of baseball games I think you should wear a tuxedo. That’ll make you stand out on video in case you need the people making Curb Your Enthusiasm to provide you with an alibi.

    19. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      We just attended a minor league baseball game with my division last week – it was almost 90 out, and I wore a plain t-shirt, loose cloth (they felt kind of like cotton or linen) pants, Converse and a sun hat. Shorts were specifically allowed, but I don’t wear shorts myself.

    20. Policy Wonk*

      Sleeveless top and nice shorts, topped by a short-sleeved team shirt that buttons, unbuttoned. Will look good as you arrive and if it’s too hot just take off the over-shirt. And wear a team baseball cap or other hat if you are sitting in the sun. And if carry-ins are allowed, bring water!

    21. Blarg*

      Pay attention to team colors! For example, you wouldn’t want to show up in navy blue to a Yankees-Red Sox game at Fenway unless you were doing it very much on purpose.

      1. House On The Rock*

        This is very good advice. I go to a lot of (college) sporting events where I’m very much decked out in my team’s colors and insignia, but I do give the side-eye to non-fans who randomly show up looking like they may be rooting for the opposing team. It looks like you are going to a Rangers’ game, so you could either wear their colors if you have something light weight in them, or do basic khaki/white/grey. The other thing that can be a bit fun is wearing, say, your own college logo, or a totally random team’s stuff from a different sport, if you are a fan of someone else.

        1. need clothing advice*

          Thanks for the advice! And your username is one of my favorite places :)

      2. Tessie you're the only, only, only*

        I think this is good advice for someone new to a company as it shows that you’re part of the community (and probably at least a plurality of your coworkers are going to support the home team). But there’s a lot of color overlap among teams so don’t go crazy, just cheer when your colleagues do. :-) Another option is to borrow or thrift a Texas Rangers cap – then your clothes become irrelevant.

        Since you’re new to baseball, OP, I’d suggest checking out MLB’s Intro to Baseball video (short) on YouTube. And if you tell your team it’s your first game you’ll probably have fan self-identify and share some info with you.

        1. need clothing advice*

          Thanks for the advice — I’ll probably enjoy the game more if I vaguely know what’s going on :)

    22. Quinalla*

      Yeah, ask a coworker. At my work, folks wear shorts & tank tops/muscle shirt to things like this np and no one bats an eye, but your work may be different. I have on several occasions ask someone at work expected dress code for something and no one has ever acted like I was weird for asking. Even if they do when you ask, oh well! Better to have a quick slightly awkward conversation then show up in a tank top and jeans and everyone else is wearing formal wear, haha.

  9. A big sigh*

    I think I am seriously loosing it. I work in an open concept office with cubicles. Our cubicles are in groups of 4 with a high wall around each group. Two of my group usually travel, so that leaves me and “Casey” alone in our area. First I must say Casey is very nice and we get along but have VERY different work styles.

    For example she gave up smoking and tobacco but constantly phlegm coughs (can’t be helped I get it, but it’s hard to eat hearing it all day). She claims her cough is getting toxins out of her body.

    We can use our phone for personal use – instead of texting or a quick call she does talk to text – planning friend meet ups, organizing a volunteer position at her kids school, “arguing” with her brother, catching up with her boyfriend, plans for the weekend

    Casey listens to an online podcasts, music, news programs and self help books at top volume and “communicates” with the authors. Occasionally karaoke is part of the communication

    Yes our office is VERY casual to the point of fuzzy slippers in the office and WFH is encouraged. I don’t know if this is from a beverage, a prescription or even just personality but she constantly burps and farts. I don’t mean oops excuse me- it’s more like whoa a big one is coming….all day long.

    To top it off she has conversations with herself. She’ll research minor medical stuff, like a common cold and discuss it; she doesn’t agree with a new company policy and argues in her head/ out loud.

    Casey and I get along well and talk socially, even grab lunch but this is driving me nuts. I don’t want to say anything as maybe there are legitimate reasons….. Heck I’m not perfect by any means and I’m sure I have annoying habits. I want to be a friend. I don’t want to be rude or uncaring. I’m definitely more quiet and reserved where Casey is bubbly and outgoing. I feel like the book nerd and a ping pong ball are sharing a space. I’ve tried headphones and more. There is no way for me to move desks. I’m not looking to say anything. Any ideas what I, me only, can do to coexist?

    1. Elsewise*

      This is a fully “do it in your head only and absolutely never tell anyone”, but one thing I’ve done in the past with annoying colleagues is every time they do [annoying habit] I do [inconspicuous thing that might make me happy]. Think of it like a drinking game but with water (or coffee or whatever you usually drink at your desk). Something like “every time she burps, I eat an M&M.” As long as you don’t make a big production out of it, no one will notice, and it’s a nice little way of rewarding yourself for keeping your cool while making a game out of someone’s habits.

    2. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Loop earplugs. If you get the “Quiet” ones (intended for sleep), they block a lot of sound. Not 100% block. I describe it like sounding like someone else making noise is at a distance under water. Could take the edge off.

      1. Morag*

        I second the Loop earplugs – not traditional ear-pluggy looking, but work really well at dampening sounds.

    3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      If WFH is encouraged…I’d WFH. Or see if I could talk Casey into doing more WFH.

    4. Ghee Buttersnaps*

      This would drive me bonkers. I have a co-worker who is very, very loud, and talks all day long. I’ve just tried to train myself to tune her out. You could also just ignore the loud pronouncements of an upcoming burp, and attempts at inane conversation. Maybe she’ll just stop? I doubt it though. Could you WFH on alternate days so at least you don’t have to deal with it two days in a row?

    5. duinath*

      I would stop grabbing lunch with her, so you get a period of time in the day where she is not around. Give yourself a break from her, so to speak.

      If you’ve tried noise cancelling headphones for the noise, and electric fans (I suppose other scents overlayered could also be an option, but you’d risk bumping onto someone’s allergies) for the farts, and you don’t want to alter her behaviour at all, this sounds like it comes down to your mental fortitude (managing to stay calm and not too annoyed or grossed out) now, and I think getting a break from her in the day could help with that.

      Don’t eat lunch with her, don’t eat lunch in the office, make lunch your little oasis of peace in the day.

      (If it were me, I would say something to her, tbh.)

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, if she’s this casual, I don’t know that it would cause a whole mess of drama to ask her to take the personal calls outside or remind her she doesn’t have to inform you of every oncoming burp.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      I once had a co worker/ podmate who would give commentary on his day. I finally started replying to him. When he asked, I said “You’re talking out loud and I am the only person nearby. I assume you are talking to me.” It finally ended when he announced, “Looks like my prescription is ready at the pharmacy” and I replied, “Remember, if it lasts for more than four hours, call a doctor.”

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I’d pick just one or two things to set boundaries on. Like – the non-work related broadcasting needs to stop. “Casey, I know that listening to things is helpful to you when you’re working, but I am unable to concentrate when there’s music or broadcasting going on. Please use headphones to listen to your content.” Similarly, “I am having trouble focusing on my work when you are having a personal call or dictating your texts. Please step out if it’s going to be more than a minute or two.”

      Fuzzy slippers are not affecting your ability to work but the yammering is.

      I’d probably try to tune out the self-talk and the flatulence, considering them a lost cause. And if you can train her out of the phone calls and radio stuff, then your next campaign could be to respond to her self-talk with a pause and a “Oh, I’m sorry Casey, were you talking to me?” (not joining the conversation … just acknowledging it and naming it as something you could hear but didn’t know why it was happening because you’re so busy with work.)

    8. WellRed*

      I don’t think anyone should ever be afraid to tell a coworker to use earbuds or headphones to listen to music or podcasts yet it comes up here with such frequency. “Can you use your headphones?” Every time. She’s singing? “Can you dial it down a bit?” She discusses medical issues? “TMI.”

    9. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Can you ask her when she is doing things like talk to text to do it elsewhere as its distracting. Ask her to please wear headphones to listen to podcasts, etc or to turn it down so you can’t hear it.
      If she is talking to herself can you pipe up and say “what’s that?” and when she says she’s talking to herself just ask if she could be more quiet because when she does that you think she is trying to get your attention.
      There’s not much that can be done about the burps and farts, except to ask her to please not announce it!

      1. Busy Middle Manager*

        This at the very least, why are the other comments so nice! This is a case where being traditionally nice doesn’t help! OP you’ve hurt yourself by letting this drag on so long. You gotta start speaking up yesterday, it will only be awkward because you’ve let it slide so long, but will only get worse. Also constant bodily functions are now normal, at that level….I’m more outspoken so I’d probably be like “have you checked yourself for food allergies.” If you’ve ever had to live/work in closed spaces with others, their problems become yours so it’s not as out of line as some think

    10. theletter*

      Maybe you could try a ‘Sometimes the office feels a little toooo much like just hanging at home, and it’s hard to get into the work zone. Do you ever feel that way?’

      or just the old ‘I love working with you but sometimes the noise knocks me out of the work zone. Also, friend to friend, the singing and bodily functions are a bit more audible than you might realize. Do you want me to give you a heads-up if it’s too loud?’

      I wonder if Casey might also benefit from looking into work that’s a bit more people-interactive? It seems like their personality is little bit more ‘meetings-y’ and less ‘quiet-work-grinding-y’

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        ‘Sometimes the office feels a little toooo much like just hanging at home, and it’s hard to get into the work zone. Do you ever feel that way?’ – this is very passive aggressive. Be direct, there’s a lot of good suggestions in this thread.

    11. Someone stole my croissant*

      Hmm. You might just be introverted. I’m an ambivert, but just reading your story made me socially tired. Get away for a few minutes to recharge every once in a while. Don’t eat lunch with her(seriously, she probably is exhausting to eat with). Practice mindfulness.
      Ask her to wear earbuds, or gift them to her and get really offended whenever she doesn’t wear them :)
      Consider working from home. You’re able to control your environment more, unless you have really talkative kids.

      1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

        I think you’ll have to talk to her – cheerful and matter of fact is the tone. “Of course she would be upset to find out she’s been bothering you” – that’s the base assumption I would operate on (If it’s not true, then at least you have done the base work of assuming good intentions.)

        I speak from experience – it’s not going to stop bothering you, and this cacophony from her area sounds taxing for all but a literal saint. You’ll feel better for saying something, and I second the recommendation for splitting it into actionable items (she can control her noise level, but the farts may be involuntary.) If she reveals herself to be unreasonable, that’s when you go up the chain/to HR. Unfortunately she may be a bit unhappy with you, but that’s a her problem.

        1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

          oh no! Nesting fail. Meant to reply to original post. It comes for us all.

    13. NaoNao*

      If you look up “Cary Tennis Salon + Worst Coworker Ever” (the description of that coworker is in part “Yowls, meows, spins, chews, farts, warbles, whistles, flails, dances, burps, twirls and throws food. … She sings little “la-la-la” type songs .”–sound familiar?) that column might help!
      For now I’d maybe do the Alison thing of make it about you “Fartina, this is totally my thing, but I’m very sensitive to X, could you keep it down over there?” or similar.

    14. Quinalla*

      Top volume podcasts with headphones or without? If without, you are 100% fine to ask Casey to use headphones. As far as talking to the podcast/author, can you in the moment say “Hey, not sure if you realize, but you are talking out loud to your podcast/book and it is very distracting!” Also, I’d ask if she could do less voice to text at it is distracting. I wouldn’t ask her to completely stop (maybe) but at least ask if she could do it less. If this feels like too much to ask, pick the most annoying and ask her to stop?

      The coughing, eh not much you can do, talking to herself, maybe occasionally if it gets excessive say something like “What was that Casey? Sorry was concentrating so didn’t catch that.” and she can apologize for talking to herself and that might get her to do it less. Worth trying.

      If you truly don’t want to bring it up, I would go to lunch less so you get some quiet time, make an internal game of keeping track of how many times Casey does the different things and maybe earn a reward after you get enough points? It is good of you to be accommodating, but I honestly think you are being too accommodating!

    15. OhGee*

      oh jeez. I need to note that none of what you’ve shared here is about different working styles. this is just really oblivious behavior in the workplace!

    16. Bird Law*

      As long as you’re unwilling to say something, you’re willing to bear all the negative consequences for your colleague’s awful behavior. She is being very rude. This is not appropriate workplace behavior at all!

      I just don’t think that’s fair.

    17. Future*

      She absolutely should be using headphones to listen to phone noise. It would be completely reasonable to ask this.

  10. Betty Spaghetti*

    Wondering how much, in general terms, is appropriate to share with current employees while we are going through the hiring process. We are down ~40% of our workforce due to several long-overdue and necessary terminations. I’d like to keep my employees updated to help mitigate frustration- so they know the process is moving forward. Obvs I won’t share any personal details, names, etc. But is it gauche to let them know how many applicants we have in total, overall quality of the applications, etc?

    1. pally*

      I would think that the progress of hiring new folks would be of best interest as this will soon impact their workload for the positive.

      I can see providing resume numbers and quality of the applications in two ways:

      (1) this information might come back later on in terms of how the new hires are viewed by the current employees. Maybe there will be talk about “the magnificent hire that got away” or “having to settle”.

      (2) Employees may look forward to the candidates who bring in new skills or sound very capable.

      YMMV.

      It really irked me when the project managers were discussing the process of hiring a new lab tech for our lab. One intended to hire a blonde as there weren’t any blondes in the lab. The other told me that most of the candidates were asking for more money than we were currently earning. These sorts of things don’t do anyone any good to hear.

    2. Ghee Buttersnaps*

      I probably wouldn’t give them exact numbers, but I think vague updates are helpful.
      * “We received quite a few good resumes over the past week, so we’re working on setting up some initial phone screens.”
      * “Our initial phone screens are complete, so we’re beginning to set up some in-person interviews over the next two weeks.”
      * “We’ve identified our finalists, so are hoping to wrap up second interviews over the next 2 weeks.”
      * “Second interviews are complete, and we are hoping to make a hire shortly. We will let you know when an offer has been accepted.”

      I think these kinds of periodic updates should suffice.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I agree, the timing and quality of the hire is what matters most to people and these answers tell them that progress is happening without getting into the level of detail that would be inappropriate to share.

    3. Desk Dragon*

      My company shares hiring updates on about a monthly basis with how many positions we’re recruiting for and numbers of offers extended, plus names of incoming new hires once offers have been extended. I don’t think they’ve ever shared number of applications or a sense of the quality of the candidate pool, beyond perhaps a very general “we’re reviewing a lot of applications” or “if you know anyone who might be a good candidate for [hard-to-fill position] remember we have a referral bonus program!” I personally would find it a bit odd to receive more details than that if I wasn’t actively involved in the hiring process.

    4. jasmine*

      Maybe it’s because it’s not uncommon for coworkers to interview at the companies I’ve worked for, but sharing hiring updates is really normal to me. I know when I was interviewing, the hiring manager mentioned, “one of the people we’re interviewing works at X company”

      Maybe leave names out of it, but other than that I wouldn’t worry

    6. Quinalla*

      I’d just let them know that you are aggressively looking. Let them know if you are getting close to making an offer, in early stages with a few folks, etc. Number of resumes or candidates currently in process is fine too. High level info, no details. Don’t tell them we went with our 2nd choice or other details like that which could get back to new hires and cause hurt feelings.

  11. Kat*

    I need a change up on my office set-up and fashion. How does everyone do the below if you’re on frequent video calls?

    – What tops and accessories do you wear that should look good on camera? For example, I feel more put together if I wear something with a turtleneck or flutter sleeves. Anything that shows up different on camera than a simple tee.
    – On video calls, do you look directly into the camera or at the screen? Do you have any tricks for making sure you’re always looking at the camera? Looking at the camera directly would show up as eye contact with the other person. I try to look at the camera directly, but I end up watching the screen (looking at the other person while they are talking). I wonder that since I’m not showing that direct eye contact, it’s subconsciously creating distrust with the other person.
    – Do you have your laptop elevated or on the desk? Having it elevated puts it face level with. On the desk would make it look up. Is one that is unconsciously better?

    1. Alisaurus*

      I have heard several times that it’s best to look directly at the camera when you’re speaking and that you’re fine to look at the other person when they are. I think everyone understands it’s not the same as eye contact in-person, since you looking at the camera the whole time means you’re not looking at the other person at all.

      Also, my laptop is elevated. Partially because my desk is smaller so I need the space for my ergonomic keyboard and also because I do not like to be looking down at video calls. I think that one’s a personal preference situation, especially if you don’t have a full WFH setup where you could elevate your camera.

    2. Passionfruit*

      In regards to the camera— if you’re on Zoom, you can drag your own video rectangle to the top of the screen. That is very helpful! In terms of eye contact, it’s nice to look near the camera, but it’s OK if you aren’t staring directly into it the whole time. Social norms are different on Zoom and people don’t expect complete eye contact. Think of it this way: if both of you were looking into the camera, neither of you would actually be seeing the other!

      I have my laptop elevated when I do video calls because the angle is more flattering. I want the camera to see my face, not my chest.

      1. Happily Retired*

        “I have my laptop elevated when I do video calls because the angle is more flattering.” – I try very hard to avoid Nostril Cam.

    3. Forest Hag*

      This is interesting to me since I am about to start a 100% remote job. :) I wfh frequently at my current job, but we don’t use video that often, and I will be using video a lot more coming up.

      1. I try not to wear black, because it seems like I just turn into this amorphous mass with a floating head whenever I wear black. I usually wear a solid tee but I try to make it a “nicer” tee, though my new company seems pretty casual so I don’t think that will be a problem.
      2. My monitor sits on a riser on my desk and I try to make the camera as close to the video screen as possible, so it looks more like I’m looking directly into the camera. I’ve tried to train myself to ignore the video and look into the camera, but I can’t. I don’t think it creates distrust, 99.9% of the people I’ve done video calls with don’t “make eye contact” so to speak, so I don’t think it’s that much of a issue. Our eyes just naturally go towards the video feed.
      3. I use an external camera and monitor so those are elevated on my desk riser. Laptop stays closed most of the time. I do make sure the camera is pointing directly AT me, not above or below, because I feel like that creates weird angles.

    4. CL*

      The look at the camera/screen question depends on your set up. I have a coworker who uses an external monitor and has the meeting on the external screen while the camera is on their laptop to the side. This means I am always looking at their left ear.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yeah – mine isn’t quite that dramatic, but my monitors are at a very slight angle to each other and the positioning on my camera works best if it’s on the top edge of the one that my Teams meeting window is NOT on, so if I’m watching the meeting instead of the camera, I’m looking slightly less than a quarter turn to the right instead of straight on.

    5. Unfortunate Admin*

      Now that I take a lot of video calls at work, I have adjusted my wardrobe a bit. In person, I’d be comfortable going to the office in a shirt that’s not necessarily low cut but like a cami or tank top with a cardigan or some open button shirt or a sleeveless dress and it looks fine. And this is totally a me thing and I don’t pay as much attention to what other people wear or care, but on video calls I might wear the same thing and feel like too much skin is exposed because there’s less balance of clothes since people are only seeing my upper body. So lately, I’ve been wearing more nice-ish, solid colour crew neck t shirts or long sleeve shirts /pullover sweaters. Which is kind of boring but simple and comfortable.

      I think having an elevated laptop is ideal for video calls. Looking at the camera is good but I don’t think too much about it unless I’m looking at my other screen so my head is tilted away from the camera, I try not to do that too much if I can help it.

      1. Uranus Wars*

        I was going to mention this! With the prevalence of video meetings I have changed to button up tops or crew neck for both the office and home! Even a v-neck makes me feel exposed. Both of my cameras are on top of a desktop monitor, so I feel like people can see *down my shirt*. Which I realize they can’t. And I don’t notice it on others – only myself!

    6. WantonSeedStitch*

      1) I usually wear dresses in the summer. A collared shirt with jeans in the cooler weather is my go-to.

      2) In Zoom meetings, I will move the square with the speaker around until it is near the camera, so that if I look at the speaker, I am also looking at the camera, or near enough.

      3) I actually have my laptop attached to a large monitor. On that monitor, I have an external webcam that actually hangs down over the screen a few inches. This puts the camera at a level such that I am not craning my neck up at it. I feel like elevating your laptop, if that’s what you’re using, is good ergonomic practice anyway.

    7. Sneaky Squirrel*

      – I usually wear a blouse that I would feel comfortable to wear in office.
      – I look at the screen to see the person I’m talking with, but I bring their video window up close to where my webcam is so that I have the appearance that I’m looking towards the camera.
      – If I’m on my laptop and using the webcam, I would have it elevated to be at face level. More often, my laptop is docked to a monitor, keyboard, and an external web camera.

    8. office hobbit*

      I find the webcam on my laptop is close enough to the video that if I look at the video, it looks like I’m looking into the camera/making eye contact. When I’ve used an external webcam, the eye contact angles don’t work as well. Even in that case, I gave up on eye contact and just look at the video feed, though. When I tried to talk to the webcam, the effort of not looking at my coworkers and not being able to read their facial expressions was too distracting and I could tell I wasn’t explaining things as clearly as I would if I weren’t fretting about the camera.

    9. Harrowhark*

      I wear dark tops with subtle patterns. If I wear a solid color, my shoulders disappear into the virtual background. The shirts are collared blouses, which keeps them from looking like t-shirts. But I have also, in a pinch, worn an actual t-shirt and wrapped a colorful scarf around my neck.

      I look directly at the camera when I speak (unless I need to look at my screen to look up something, or when I’m sharing my screen). Otherwise, I’m looking at the person’s video feed when they are speaking. However, other people in my company never look at their camera at all, and it’s not weird or gets in the way of a productive call.

      I have an external camera that sits on top of the monitor that’s behind my laptop. I’d like to move it lower, to a spot in the middle of that monitor, because that would be at a more natural position for me to look at, but then part of the screen would be blocked.

      My colleagues have their cameras positioned all over the place. One person has hers so high that you can only see the top 3/4’s of her face; another has it far to his left, so he has to physically turn his whole body to look into the camera; and yet another has it low enough that the angle is looking up at her face from her collarbone. All of those are fine for our calls.

    10. Tio*

      I like patterned tops, with bright colors. I find it makes it easier for the camera to pick me up and attract the light and that darker colors sometimes put me in the shadow realm, but depending on your home lighting setup that might not matter. If it has much of a neckline, I will often wear a short necklace. I’ve gotten a few nice ones on clearance/coupons from Kohls and whatnot.

    11. MechanicalPencil*

      I go for “nicer” tshirts with subtle patterns in jewel tones or something to brighten me up a bit since the webcam always washes me out to the point of looking undead.

      I use a cabinet riser (like for having an extra place to stack plates) as an inexpensive monitor stand. That it’s a grate sort of top has the bonus of being able to wrap a cord around and not lose it behind my desk when I unplug my laptop for travel. With the riser + laptop open, it’s essentially face level, which seems optimal to me rather than looking up/down and creating a weird subconscious perception.

      I sort of look at a mixture of places. My webcam is on my laptop, but I also have a large external monitor, so depending on what I’m discussing, I may be looking in the camera or at the monitor. If I’m just speaking to a person, I use my external monitor to provide some additional lighting because, again, undead.

    12. Troy and Abed in the Morning*

      I wear my dinosaur hoodie with the hood up so I look like a dinosaur.

      I don’t make eye contact. I’m usually looking at the wall behind my laptop.

      I do elevate it so people can see my dinosaur hoodie better.

      It is possible my workplace has very different norms and expectations than most.

    13. Kes*

      1 – I don’t worry about this too much, beyond that if I’m wearing a tank top I’ll put a cardigan over
      2 – I look at the screen because I want to see the body language of the people I’m talking to and their reactions to what I’m saying
      3 – I have my laptop on the desk and a monitor above and what I do try and avoid is looking at the monitor because looking way up when the camera is below is weird. I don’t think it matters too much whether your laptop is elevated but I’d just try and find what works both in terms of using the laptop (if needed) and what angle you think you look best at

    14. Reebee*

      “I wonder that since I’m not showing that direct eye contact, it’s subconsciously creating distrust with the other person.”
      —

      Really? Huh. Never occurred to me, if that helps. I just see it as people not looking directly at me because they’re watching me talk, taking notes, or some other something having nothing to do with me.

    15. Quinalla*

      I wear collared shirts or shirts that are not the standard T-shirt collar to look dressier. I don’t worry about earring as they are under my headphones and not visible and necklaces aren’t visible either so /shrug on accessories. Make sure no messy hair visible I guess.

      Video calls, I put my camera on the monitor where I have the video shown and don’t worry about looking at the camera, but look in the direction. It is actually more important to stay engaged and not be looking at email, etc. It is very obvious whether you are engaged but it looks like you are looking a bit left/right/up/down or not engaged looking at something else. When presenting and everyone has their camera off I will look at the camera then, but that’s the only time.

      I don’t have a laptop with camera, but if I did I would elevate it if possible as it just looks better to have camera straight on vs. looking up, but it isn’t that big of a deal if you can’t. I have a USB camera that sits on top of my monitor which is elevated so it is at face level, but that is mainly so I don’t hunch over while working.

    16. Parakeet*

      1) I make a lot of my own (mostly fairly androgynous pendants/bracelets, or earrings that I only wear on one ear at a time because that doesn’t code quite as feminine) jewelry by hand, and it’s very much my own unique aesthetic. And the stuff from before I learned to make anything by hand was also carefully selected by me to fit my own aesthetic. Usually I’m wearing a casual t-shirt – or in colder weather, a casual sweatshirt or a flannel over a t-shirt – but many of my shirts are interesting colors, and it gives me pleasure and confidence to combine the clothing and the jewelry in striking ways.

      2) I look at myself a lot. Much easier for me than looking another person in the eyes in person, really! But also I think people interpret this sort of body language generously over video calls. I don’t think you’re creating distrust.

      3) I have it on the desk, but my desk (a long-ago graduation present from my parents that is beautiful but not configurable) is a little bit high up, and I also use a separate monitor, and a webcam that attaches to the top of my monitor rather than the built-in laptop one. So on calls I end up being face-level with the camera.

    17. allathian*

      I don’t stare people in the eye constanly in person, so I see no reason to do it in video meetings either. I mostly glance at the camera now and then.

      That said, pretty much all my meetings are internal so the stakes are lower than they would be with external customers.

    18. Last tiger of Tasmania*

      I use a USB webcam so that I can place my laptop however I want without worrying about how it affects the camera angle.

    19. WhyAreThereSoManyBadManagers*

      Put monitor & webcam at face level. Huge pet peeve is when it’s lower than the person and we can see up their nostrils, gross. Or we get dizzy watching the spinning ceiling fan behind them. Just be normal at face level.

    20. GythaOgden*

      I raise my laptop so only my head can be seen and use an external keyboard. It’s not by choice, but I can’t say I haven’t taken advantage of it and worn something relatively unorthodox because it was way, way too hot yesterday. (I have the top half of salwar kameez which I’ve worn at sci-fi conventions because it’s loose and dress length and has a nice pattern. I would never have worn it to work in person but I did yesterday because it was 30 degrees Celsius and I start melting at around 25.

      I have had compliments on my outfits, though. I am just glad to be being noticed and being able to show off some of my wardrobe again after being sat in an empty office for years on end. I’m not the smartest person in the world but my black top decorated in tiny printed unicorns was definitely a conversation piece at my last 1:1.

      Then again, people in my org have interviewed others while wearing a hoodie and on the treadmill, so I’m not exactly sure that it would matter unless I was actually still wearing my nightdress.

  12. Chirpy*

    I was off for most of this week, and apparently our part-timer quit. On the plus side, this means I likely won’t have my hours cut much (late summer is our slowest time) but it means it’s just me and the department head left, because they probably won’t hire anyone else until September.

    I just really do not want to work here anymore, but I’m afraid no one will hire me since most of my work experience is retail, I basically don’t have any work references because all my references disappeared off the face of the earth, and jobs in the fields I have a degree in are very few…and I can’t afford to temp.

    I did sort of figure out how to use my health insurance, but still haven’t been able to get an appointment to figure out what’s going on. (and not sure how I’ll pay for it if it’s not fully covered, which I doubt it will be.) I’m just so sick and tired of all of this nonsense.

    1. jasmine*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. have you thought about entry level jobs that aren’t in the field you have a degree in? the main hard requirement for entry level office jobs seems to be having any sort of degree. I don’t think it’d be an easy job search, but it’s one way to get into white collar work if that’s your goal

      also I’m not super familiar with retail, but is moving up in that world a possibility?

      1. Chirpy*

        Only if I become management (which I absolutely do not want) , or get a job at corporate headquarters (which is in a different city that I really dislike and is too far to commute.) If I stay here another year, I will almost certainly become a department head when we finally get the store reset, but having seen how it works in other locations that already have, I don’t really think it’s much of an improvement.

    2. Msd*

      Yuck. I’m sorry you’re in such a bad place. It’s really hard to look for a job when you’re feeling sick and tired. Re-look at the various links that Alison has for job searches, resumes, etc. To be enthusiastic for job hunting try the “fake it til you make it” approach. I know when I’m discouraged it’s really hard to think of things that will get me out of a rut so talk to other to get some ideas of next steps/things to try.

      1. Chirpy*

        Yeah. I just feel like my experience/lack of references/really bad anxiety with interviews* sucks, and having the best formatted resume in the world won’t fix that.

        *It’s specifically the judgement portion of interviews, practicing ahead of time or interviews with people I know does very little to help.

        1. Joielle*

          Have you looked into state government jobs? Not sure where you’re located but my state has a program for people with disabilities that mean they don’t interview well. They can essentially have an on-the-job interview (or “pre-probationary trial period”), which often leads to employment unless the person is clearly not a good fit. I’m in Minnesota and it’s called Connect 700 here, but I know other states have similar programs.

          There are tons of jobs in state government for all kinds of interests and backgrounds, generally with decent-to-good pay, very good benefits, great work-life balance, and a lot of stability. I’d encourage you to take a look!

          1. Chirpy*

            So, one of the biggest employers in my state for what I have a degree in is actually the state government…problem is, they almost never have openings. They weren’t hiring 10 years ago when I took this retail job just to have *something*, and now they seem to only be hiring people with 10 years experience. I’d love to work there, though.

        2. Msd*

          This may not be a politically correct suggestion but for interviews would it be possible to have your doctor prescribe anti anxiety medication? When I get an MRI I have the doctor prescribe Valium and it helps with my claustrophobia/anziety. To me taking something for an interview to calm you is better than white knuckling it. As a side note when I interview people who are obviously nervous I don’t hold it against them. I have found that some of my worse/most nervous interviewees were actually my some of my best employees.

          1. Chirpy*

            I’d have to get a doctor to actually treat me for anxiety first…the other part of my issue with going to see a doctor is that they always just tell me I’m fat and anxious without actually listening to what’s wrong, and I’ve never actually had any of them actually say “so let’s do something about that anxiety”.

            The only time I got anxiety medication is when I sprained my back…the guy told me it was a muscle relaxer but the pharmacist told me it was primarily an anxiety medication when I picked it up. (It did work for both purposes, but I couldn’t drive while using that one.)

    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Try thinking outside of the box and try other things that maybe don’t relate directly to your degree. I have found that retail work can relate to other office type jobs. Have you looked at customer service type positions. I have an English writing degree but (because of circumstances and needing any job) I worked for a call center for 3 years before getting a job in a professional development school as student support. I know one person who doesn’t have more than an associates degree who now works for the county and helping people get connected to resources. She worked in call centers and such before getting to where she is now.

      Retail work has a lot of transferable skills. You (probably) know how to deal with people who are frustrated which can equal to client relations. You may be able to multi task or be able to start and stop projects when something urgent comes up. Are you good with time management and organization. Are you self reliant/self starter? all of these are good things to have in any administrative type job.

      1. Chirpy*

        I mean, honestly, I’m so burned out from working with awful customers that more customer service/ administration just sounds awful right now. Even though I know from a previous job that people do usually treat office workers better than retail.

        What I really want is a job where I can block off chunks of uninterrupted work, or have set times for public interactions. I’m just not great at re-starting after an interruption (would not surprise me if I have undiagnosed ADHD, I very clearly have undiagnosed anxiety.) Like, retail is one of the worst possible jobs for me to be doing.

        1. GythaOgden*

          I get what your ideal job might be, but to get there you’re going to need to compromise a bit. I did reception for a long time and only just moved into a more reactive admin job. Project-based work would probably mean a few steps up the ladder before you get there. I’d love to be in compliance and my boss knows my admin role is a stepping stone to get me there, but yeah, it’s totally still reactive. It’s more about knowing where you want to be and taking the steps to get there even if it takes a number of years.

          I’m very lucky to be in the supportive environment I’m in, but I also recognise that I could not go from reception to even a junior compliance officer without several years’ experience at an intermediate stage. My boss made a business case for my current role (and is doing the same for another receptionist in our patch by inviting her to sit in on one of our management meetings next week to see what is involved in the life of a junior facilities site manager) and here I am, not quite living the dream YET but in a much better situation — physical, mental, financial, you name it — nevertheless.

          Also, you’re not doing it consciously but: try not to discount EVERYTHING we suggest. You’ve asked a lot before but if you’re always responding defensively, we can’t help you as much as you want us to. We’re totally on your side, and I’ve totally been there (with the added restriction that my reception post was in an office not open to the general public, which meant I didn’t have the customer service skills even to get a job in a call centre. It’s a bit less flexible here in the UK; because we have more protections, there’s a need for more vetting. The Connect 700 scheme is an amazing idea and would have solved a lot of problems for me, but sadly hasn’t made its way over here yet and may not be compatible with a culture that has greater working rights from day 1.)

          Also, by showing willing and interest despite being frustrated by life, you give others a better impression of your capabilities. Even if you’re inwardly seething at the injustice of the world — and again, I have TOTALLY been there — getting out of this situation requires networking with your available contacts. It’s hard to be like that because it feels two-faced, and I’m autistic with a history of not being able to mask at all, but the more you fake it, the easier it gets to genuinely feel more responsible and impress others.

          We’re all rooting for you, but seriously, you can’t do much towards the goal of a specific kind of project work job without paying your dues. Don’t let it discourage you, but at the same time, you will need to think more realistically — and also maybe respect our time in trying to help you by using what you get here.

          1. Chirpy*

            It’s just hard because it feels like I’ve been “paying my dues” for 20 years already, and all it gets me is people treating me worse and worse because “why haven’t you gotten further ahead in life by now.” And a lot of the “more professional” entry level jobs don’t pay significantly more than what I currently make, which is not a living wage. I’m just never going to get ahead if I can’t find something I’d actually be good enough at to get promoted.

            1. Shard*

              And a lot of the “more professional” entry level jobs don’t pay significantly more than what I currently make

              But it would still be more. After all, 0+1 is still an increase over 0, even if it’s not as large an increase as 0+100.

              1. Chirpy*

                Yeah, but this is like I need $5k more per year to stay afloat, and these jobs are like $1k more with 2/3 less vacation than I currently have, and it doesn’t seem like much of an improvement.

          2. Chirpy*

            I mean, I have a college degree, with a double major and two minors. But apparently working retail completely erases that.

            1. RagingADHD*

              I hear you. It isn’t fair, and it sucks.

              And nevertheless, the way to get out of this silo is to go for openings that may not be a lot better immediately, but that have a viable path into something better later on.

            2. GythaOgden*

              I have an undergraduate degree in politics from the London School of Economics (an internationally renowned social science university), a Masters in international law research from the University of Reading (England), which is in the top 10 law faculties in the UK, and had a place to do a PhD at Kings College in London but failed to get funding. I worked reception for 10 years because despite my education, my autism and co-morbid neurological difficulties made it really hard to hold down a practical job until I’d got a grip on myself. I’m still very unlikely to go up into actual management because I tire easily and don’t generally have the proactive mentality (yet) to do much other than admin.

              But look, Chirpy, for years I thought that I was either unemployable or doomed to sit on reception day in, day out. I got sacked or managed out three times in as many years and spent ten years on incapacity benefit. I’ve been there and so have a lot of people. We can sympathise and help out, but you yourself have to make the first move. Be brave. Put yourself out there into a less than ideal situation. My new job after that ten year stint on reception (which was bloody hard to get out of without fresh admin experience), while it’s amazing and fun and working from home and with some incredible people who really want to be at work doing good stuff in healthcare facilities, only pays the same wage as the reception job. I only got a pay rise because I now work 37.5 hours rather than 25, and don’t have the commuting costs. I am in a privileged financial position (thanks to a legacy and insurance payouts from my husband’s untimely death, plus parents who reached the top of their careers and thus could invest money in property for us), but take the approach that with that great privilege comes great responsibility and thus do my best to navigate the ambivalence of the working world and put back into the system that keeps me afloat as a person.

              You come here asking for answers to a lot of questions and all but you never take any actual action to solve the problems. I absolutely wish I had a magic wand because I can’t stand to see someone struggling in the exact same way I was struggling a year or two ago. (Working ten years on healthcare reception will do that to a person :(.)

              But it does take effort and compromise and a willingness to work with people rather than against them even if they themselves behave less than perfectly towards you. I’ve clawed my way out of a work situation that required a degree in escapology to effect. You need someone to give you a break, but you also need to be able to recognise where that break is and not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

    4. Pokemon Go To The Polls*

      I got my first tech job with a bachelor’s degree in Spanish and 10 years of retail experience. Working retail teaches you tons of soft skills for dealing with customers, tough situations, making more from less, and problem solving, among others. I started in customer support at a small company and am now making a good living as a business analyst.
      Anybody can be a work reference – trusted colleagues you work with currently, for example.

      1. Chirpy*

        I don’t have any trusted colleagues, my coworkers are terrible. There was one recent former coworker I could have asked, but I couldn’t contact her. Otherwise, it’s basically I *might* be able to find a supervisor from 10 years ago via his wife’s Facebook (because he doesn’t do technology and moved halfway across the country)…and I have someone I volunteer with who’s offered to be a reference.

        1. Msd*

          Despite what I read in ask a manager, I’m not convinced that all employers actually check references. I think only very large ones with an actual HR department do. Don’t let the lack of references keep you from job hunting. Just keep “ references on request” off your resume. If asked then have a simple explanation such as “due to the nature of retail there’s a lot of turnover of coworkers and ex managers and unfortunately they do not stay in touch” or something like that. Perhaps have a personal reference you could use rather than a professional one if pressed.

          1. Chirpy*

            I used to work in an office before retail, those people also disappeared. Weirdly, multiple workplaces have had complete turnovers in staff or closed completely after I left. Like 4 times.

            1. Chirpy*

              So, 4 out of my 7 jobs, and my current and the previous are for the same company, so I can’t ask someone from the previous job for a reference without it getting back to my current manager.

              1. Msd*

                As I read your comments it seems to me that you are in a bit of a negative spiral. Those are really really hard to get out of. A couple of things to focus on – lack of references does not need to keep you from getting a job. Many places do not check references. Explain that your current position precludes you from using any current references and that due to the volatility of retail work past references are not available. I suggested getting some anti anxiety meds for interviews. I meant from a regular doctor for interviews not as long term treatment. You’re right that the medical profession is famous for fat shaming (btw it does the same kind of thing to old people – everything sluffed off as “well you’re old what do you expect”). Google “how to find a fat friendly doctor”. Also it’s hard but you can push back at an obnoxious doctor. Call them out for lazy diagnosis. It’s sad that you’re in such a bad place but please realize that being in that place is keeping you from seeing any solutions.

                1. Chirpy*

                  Yeah, I do realize I’m in an anxiety spiral. I just can’t get past the anxiety to even find a doctor.

                2. GythaOgden*

                  Just wanted to say Chirpy that despite my exasperation above, I totally understand where you are in terms of anxiety. It will worm its way in and eat you from inside.

                  The best thing I did was to get medication for it but I know that’s not that easy in the US healthcare system. It helped me think a lot straighter than before and be able to look the anxiety in the eye and tell it it didn’t control me. It’s really tough and for me it only really happened because something happened that made it impossible to go on without it because my husband’s illness made it imperative that I tame my demons to make sure he was properly taken care of. It simply has to come from within and I do hope that you find that catalyst that gets you out of the situation.

                  Look on it this way — I’ve been there and I know how tough it is to swallow your pride. But the difference between where I was a year ago and now is so awesome that it’s worth a bit of hard graft to get that leg up.

                  You CAN do it and you WILL do it. Just hold on to those two words and anything is possible.

              2. Msd*

                One last suggestion – maybe put your job search/worry on hold for 8 months. During that time can you volunteer at your local government? I volunteer at my city’s health department (only downside is i don’t want to eat at any of the local restaurants) and there is little to no interaction with the public. My thought is that you could then use someone there as a personal reference. A big virtual hug and hopes that you get to a better place.

              3. Doc McCracken*

                I was diagnosed with adhd at age 41. I often feel like I’m “behind” because of the opportunities I missed out on without support. To start moving out of the spiral, you need support from someone. That can be from a high quality mental health podcast, trusted friend, safe family member etc. Ask the person who is most safe in your circle to help you with one thing. It can feel like you will never dig out of the hole.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I know you want to get out of customer facing roles, but there are some close hops from retail that have easier tracks to other types of roles, like data processing or back end customer support (doing the paperwork rather than the direct interaction).

      The first two that tend to be always hiring are bank teller and hotel front desk. Again, I know these are not ideal for you, but it’s about finding a pathway.

      Banking usually has a lot of opportunities to move into things like loan processing, and other lateral or upward moves. Hotels have opportunities to move into auditing and other businesses segments.

  13. Layoff Anxiety*

    My husband works for a start-up that is having financial trouble. After talking with the owners about cutting costs in his department, the solution they agreed to (which he proposed) was to lay him off at the beginning of August.

    We’re really privileged to have a safety net and I think his skill set is in-demand enough that he hopefully won’t be out of work for long, but we’ll be relying on my income for a while. My salary is less than half of his. I’ve seen a lot of articles online about how to emotionally support a partner after a layoff, but not as much financial advice about unexpectedly becoming a single-income household. Aside from “get him on my health insurance”, what else should I be thinking about?

    1. Blueprint blues*

      reducing expenses. a bit late, but live on your salary alone. hopefully the layoff won’t last too long, but plan for it like it will.

    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      If you’re in the US and own a house, then look into getting a home equity line of credit now. If you have to borrow money, it’ll be cheaper than a credit card, and you’ll have a harder time getting one when he’s unemployed.

      1. Magpie*

        You really shouldn’t use a HELOC in this kind of situation. If you default on the payments, you’re putting your house in danger of foreclosure and if you’re using the money from the HELOC to cover expenses because of a layoff, the chances of default are especially high. It’s much better to use credit cards even if the interest rate is higher because you won’t end up losing your home if you’re late on a few credit card payments.

        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          I suppose it depends on your situation, but the chances of default are relatively low. If you borrow say, $20k at 10% interest, then you’ll paying $2k a year until the repayment period starts which is typically ten years. Presumably you’ll figure out a plan by then.

          If you want to be conservative, you can save $2k so that you have enough to cover the year (maybe $4k) and then you’ll have $18k to spend on expenses.

          I guess if you think there’s a good job you might end up defaulting on your loans because you’ll be out of work for a long time, then go with the credit cards.

    3. pally*

      While hubby has his medical insurance, get what appointments/treatments he can under his coverage.
      Also, there may be a gap between the time coverage starts under your insurance and when his lapses. Try to minimize this if you can.

      Get on the same page with the family budget and where to minimize expenses.

      I assume hubby will file for unemployment. Do this as soon as possible.

    4. WellRed*

      Did he negotiate severance? Is him picking up some sort of casual part time work a possibility?

      1. Layoff Anxiety*

        Severance pay is unlikely given the financial situation, but they’re interested in contracting him for a few hours a month if possible. In which case, I assume, he’d be a 1099 contractor and have to set aside funds for taxes. He may try to contract with an old boss as well. I’m not sure how the setup would be there either. Trying to be plan ahead without delving into a classic panic spiral.

        1. 1099 and unemployment*

          Be aware that 1099 contracting may make him ineligible for unemployment or make it difficult. Most unemployment rules are not designed for modern work mechanism such as periodic work. When I did some 1099 freelancing I got flagged if I earned money one week and not the next, even if it was just $10-15. I had to go through a process to reopen my claim because it was treated like a termination of part time work. I always got the money eventually, but it would delay payments for several weeks each time until they were satisfied and reopened my claim. The specific rules and processes vary by state, but there is a general expectation that work (whether w-2 or 1099) is on or off and not fluctuating.

          However, if they offer him 1099 work and he doesn’t take it he likely will not be eligible for unemployment at all because it’s pretty universal that you can’t turn down any work you’re offered while on unemployment.

          Good luck!

    5. pally*

      If there is a 401K or pension- you might look into getting that rolled over so that this doesn’t get forgotten about.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If you have an FSA, use it up in July. The last day to incur expenses is the last day of employment.

      If you trust your practitioner you may be able to do something like get prepay a long-delayed root canal, and get it billed all on a July consultation.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        I did this when I left my last job – put down a deposit on my next pair of glasses, on the very last day of work, which used up my FSA to the penny. It was pretty satisfying.

    7. jasmine*

      do you have an idea of your current monthly expenses? if not, I’d work on that and then you can plan cuts where needed

      monthly expenses vary, but you just want a general idea. don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good

    8. MissGirl*

      I went through a layoff last year. Have him apply for unemployment as soon as it’s his last day. Depending on severance , it might not pay right away but you want to file and submit weekly at the start. As soon as he gets severance, put it in a high yield savings account. Don’t touch it unless necessary. It’ll feel like a good chunk of money depending but it goes fast.

      Sit down together and go through all your expenses and your net worth. Sort expenses by fixed and variable with fixed being things like mortgage. Cut variable as much as possible. Comb through all subscriptions and cut them down to only necessary and one for fun.

      Look at your net worth. Now that you have a better idea of expenses, figure out if you can survive on your salary or if you’ll need to pull in savings. That’ll tell you how long you’ll need savings for and how long it’ll last.

      I was just me so I stopped all automatic investments and saving transfers. I kept track of what I would’ve put in to make up for it if I got a job before I ran out of savings. For instance, I still maxed out my Roth but not until I got a new job.

      The important thing is not to keep on going with things as is until there’s a big problem. Be proactive.

    9. Ready for the weekend*

      If he has a retirement plan with the company, can you roll it over into an IRA now?

    10. DrSalty*

      Take a look at your monthly expenses and make sure you can cover them on your salary alone. If not, are there things you can cut? You say you have a safety net – does that mean emergency savings, and if so, how long can you rely on them before they run out?

    11. TCO*

      Take a closer look at your health insurance options. He may have the opportunity to stay with his employer’s health plan through COBRA. He’ll have to pay the full premium, but that could end up being the best deal if he gets regular medical care and has already met any annual deductible, or if his coverage is better than yours.

      Or, if he doesn’t anticipate needing any care right away, he can wait up to 60 days from his termination date to enroll in COBRA and it’s retroactive to the termination date if he enrolls. Basically, he can wait up to 60 days to see if he actually needs any health insurance before making an enrollment decision. (That 60-day mark is also usually the deadline for him to join your plan mid-year as a qualifying life event.)

      Do your own research and get details from his employer, but just know that you might be able to delay a month or two on the health insurance issue if he isn’t sure whether he’ll need coverage or how quickly he’ll be able to get on a new employer’s plan.

    12. Parakeet*

      I’ve been in a very, very similar situation. If you currently have direct deposit going to multiple accounts (say, a shared one and a personal one), figure out if you want to adjust the percentages that are automatically going to each. Figure out some small expenses cuts that won’t make you miserable if you have to rely on them for a prolonged period of time, to go with any necessary big ones. Pause on any automatic transfers (beyond your retirement account) into accounts that aren’t totally liquid (mutual funds, certificates of deposit, etc) until you have a handle on your new financial management needs.

    13. Girasol*

      In his spare time (it’s really hard to job search for a solid eight hours a day) see if he’d be interested in figuring out where all your money goes, perhaps on a spreadsheet, so you two can decide where you might cut back without feeling too deprived. If either of you is interested in cooking, go over your grocery slips to see what costs most and figure out how you might feed yourselves well but more cheaply. Go over local papers for entertainment opportunities that are free. Date nights and outings are really important to keep spirits up and marriage solid when you’re going through a rough spot like this, and they don’t have to cost.

    14. JPalmer*

      1. Get him on your health insurance is good. Examine if there is a COBRA plan and how much that’d cost. It’s probably not cheaper.
      2. Apply for unemployment immediately. They agreed to cut costs and lay him off. He should be eligible.
      3. [Not money related] Make sure he asks to give a good reference. If they have social media having them signal boost him can help line up the next thing.
      4. Combined you’ll likely have less income this year than other years. That can make it more worthwhile to do things like selling stocks.
      5. Think about contribution to retirement accounts, and if you want to scale back yours so you have more money/runway available. If he gets a job in 3 months you can probably make up any reduced contributions.
      6. Do the math for the financial timelines of how long y’all can afford to ‘hunt for a good option’ and when that becomes ‘Get any even not directly adjacent job cause money’.
      7. [Not money related] Talk about #6 and when approach to job needs to pivot. Remind him that a setback like that doesn’t mean he needs to stick with that job, just making sure
      8. Talk about shared labor and responsibilities. Given that you’re temporarily the sole breadwinner, him picking up more household responsibilities in the short term can give him healthy things to focus on and keep stuff out of the way for you so you can ensure you’re bringing your best to work (so that you can either excel or remain very stable). That can result in you hitting better targets and potentially getting a raise, or preventing you from losing your income.
      9. Look into what retirement accounts and home equity lines of credit you have. You do not want to need to use these (they are lossy safety nets), but knowing how much is available can give you a lot of peace of mind and de-stress this whole process.
      10. Work might have partners or work connections in the same industry or other companies. Having him chat with work might help him skip the whole ‘gatekept application process’ and help get him employed again.
      11. Another comment mentioned the ‘doing some precise contracting work’ for $$. Depending on your state this should not make you ineligible for unemployment.
      12. Does he have any health benefits with the company that he’ll lose access to. Some tech companies have like a ‘StayFit’ benefit. When I was laid off from Big Llama Computing, I got to spend >$1000 on a gardening shopping spree.
      13. [Not Money Related] Him having some new hobbies is great for his mental health, which will help him as he’s interviewing. He’s going to suddenly have a bunch more time, and having healthy ways to spend it keeps his brain more active and ready for challenges.
      14. [Not Money Related] Talk to him about career direction and how he feels about how the startup went/what he wants out of future jobs. Trying to regularly engage with him about his career can help him keep more focused on his needs.

      Hope this off-the-cuff advice is helpful!

    15. Goldie*

      When this happened to my husband we immediately scaled back all spending, cooking at home, budget groceries, paused gym, if you can pause student loan payments, we had child care costs that we cut with him home. Apply for unemployment.

      Then move fast on the job search, networking like crazy. My husband was hired within 4 months. We kept the reduced spending going until we were fully recovered financially.

  14. PX*

    Sigh. I had 2 initial phone screens this week as I need to get serious about job hunting before I get to BEC with my current job.
    Job 1: more pay (important to me) but want me to travel to the London office 1x week which initially I thought might be feasible but the more I think about it, the more hassle it sounds (it would be an approx 2h 1 way commute, paid for myself (not cheap because lol, UK trains suck))

    Job2: fully remote, really flexible around work from anywhere (great, something I’d very much like), but pay is about what I’m currently making and for what sounds like a more stressful environment.

    And the third, even bigger problem is that I dont think I really want to continue in my current job type – but trying to break into something new even if I have the transferable skills is so tough in this economy. No real question, just a bit of a sad vent and commiserations to anyone in the same boat.

    1. Dread Pirate Roberts*

      No real answer but maybe a bit of cheerleading to look longer term? It sounds like the right opportunity is something other than the two on the table. So unless you’re desperate for a job now, you aren’t relegated to those two not-terrific choices. A closer to ideal situation could be harder to see, and harder to get, if you jump at the first available choice. Looking back at my past job searches, when I was getting frustrated at not getting an offer I was excited about I just had to wait a little longer for something that was a much better fit. I also have thought about changing job types but found once the job fit me better, even when it was the same kind of work, I was much happier.

      And I have to say a 2 hour commute to London sounds horrendous even if it’s just once a week – 20% of your work week would be a nightmare!

      1. PX*

        Thank you! Yes, I’m definitely not desperate for a job, these opportunities just cropped up and I figured I’d at least take the call(s) and see how I felt. If anything my lack of enthusiasm is a good gauge on the fact that my gut feel on wanting a change is the right one.

        I think my fear is that while I’ve figured out the type of work I *want* to do, I havent quite figured out where the right places to go looking for it are (it’s sort of niche and goes by many title variations depending on industry) so maybe I’m just borrowing trouble by preemptively worrying about a long job search really.

    2. Radiant*

      Would the pay uplift from Job 1 be completely eaten up by the cost of your train tickets? I guess it’s deciding which is the lesser of two evils – long expensive commute or a more stressful but remote job. Which isn’t really the best of choices, I get it. You have my commiserations also (my commute when I go to the office once a week is 1.5hrs into London, but I work in the rail industry so get a discount. I couldn’t afford it otherwise!)

      1. PX*

        I don’t think the pay uplift would be completely eaten just by tickets but I think the added time/commute burden would not really make up for it. I also worry about scope creep with jobs like this. They start off saying once a week is fine, then want you to come in once or twice extra for meetings and next thing you know it’s 2-3 times a week which would be a complete no go for me.

        1. Msd*

          I think that is a valid concern and very likely what would happen. You could ask? I know a similar thing happens a lot when a job requires travel. It can often be much more than told in an interview.

  15. Eye rolling*

    Is there anything I can do besides internally roll my eyes and keep moving?

    My grandboss recently made a big deal to the entire department about taking time off to recharge after a difficult start to the year. They were taking time off and we should all follow their example. Except, they have been replying to emails and working a lot during their “vacation” and it’s creating confusion about who is in charge while they are out and whether staff should contact them. This is not new behavior. Any advice?

    1. PotatoRock*

      Not yours to address, ignore unless /you/ need clarification on who to address /your/ questions, etc to

      1. BellaStella*

        Agree here. Unless you are impacted please ignore it all to give them their time off. My grandboss does this too, and in fact even called into meetings when she was in the hospital at one point. She has no boundaries tho. Try to make sure you can get your work done and just ignore it all til they come back.

  16. silly goose*

    What do you do when people keep trying to give you degrees you don’t have? I work in academia in a job where many people have a PhD, but I do not. People call me “Dr. (my name)”, especially in email, at least once a week. The first time someone does it I’ll correct them and tell them to just call me by my name (and I also have my correct title in my email signature), but sometimes people will just continue. It feels weird to let it go, but it also feels rude to keep correcting people repeatedly. Does anyone else deal with this and if so what do you do?

    1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      As someone who works in higher ed as staff, I default to Dr. for faculty and Administration until otherwise corrected. I don’t think they’re rude for correcting me, and I’ve had too a few experiences of they very much thought I was rude for NOT calling someone Dr. even when they sign off their email as “Bob” instead of Dr. Robert… ’cause I should apparently be looking them up in the campus directory to know exactly Who.They.Are.

      If people are continuing to call you Dr. after you correct them however, they might have heard others calling you Dr. and maybe got confused. It also feels especially rude to go, “Dr. Cooper, Dr. Hofstadter, Dr. Koothrappalli… MISTER Wolowitz…”

      1. sunset*

        It also feels especially rude to go, “Dr. Cooper, Dr. Hofstadter, Dr. Koothrappalli… MISTER Wolowitz…”

        This! Also, it’s better to default to extra credentials than too few

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Same here, medical school library: Everyone is “Doctor” until they tell me otherwise unless I know for certain they aren’t (we do get a very few undergrads). But I don’t need to be corrected multiple times for the same person.

        I also have a weird first name and have gotten fed up with people mispronouncing it, so I just keep correcting them.

      3. Rebecca*

        “It also feels especially rude to go, “Dr. Cooper, Dr. Hofstadter, Dr. Koothrappalli… MISTER Wolowitz…”

        It is not rude to use the correct title. If the correct title is Mr./Ms./Mx., use it. Do not give someone a credential they don’t have in place of using their correct title.

    2. But maybe not*

      Yes, I get this regularly, as do others I work with in academia without doctorates. I don’t even attempt to correct people anymore. If having a PhD mattered to what response you are giving them, then sure, say something, but otherwise? More work than it’s worth.

    3. Ellie*

      Congratulations on your honorary doctorate! Before I got my PhD, this was an effective way to rule out academic spam. Anyone who called me Dr was usually trying to sell me something.

    4. TheyCallMeMISTERPepper*

      You could update your email signature to “John Doe, MBA” with the rest of your contact info. Adding credentials to your signature is not at all uncommon at our University. That way it’ll be obvious you’re not trying to claim a degree you don’t have. Then just ignore how people address you. Like another poster wrote, calling an academic “Dr” is just a safe default (because calling a doctor “mister” can be a cardinal sin to some). I *try* to remember if someone corrects me but I have enough problems remembering everyone’s names, I’m not going to memorize their degrees.

    5. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Oh my gosh this happens to people in my department too! I work in a university mental health counseling department. There are only a few folx who have PHD’s in counseling or psychology. the rest all have masters. I think ever so often we get someone who has been addressed as doctor.

      I think you should correct them. They are probably on auto pilot. Be nice about it. “Oh thanks for giving me an honorary doctorate!”

    6. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      I’ve worked in higher ed on the staff side for 15+ years, and the reason it’s happening is because it is safer/easier to default to Dr. Soandso than the alternative–accidentally NOT “Dr.”ing someone who is and will get offended by not being called such. I know someone who was let go at the end of her probationary period b/c her dept. chair was upset about her not using “Dr.” with everyone. (That dept. chair was an ass, but there are lots of those in upper admin).

      If you want, you can correct people, but honestly I’d let it go unless it really deeply bothers you. No one’s trying to actually give you a degree you don’t have. If anything, telling people to just call you by your name is probably the best route if that’s what you actually want them to call you. But you’re probably always going to get that from people who don’t know you, don’t work with you often, or are emailing you for the first time.

  17. Justme, The OG*

    Is hiring someone always a complete pain in the rear, or is it worse because I’m in higher education (this is a staff role)?

    1. SansaStark*

      No experience with education, but yessssss it has been for me. Even when things run reasonably smoothly, there’s always something that goes slightly awry. And if anyone else involved in the hiring process (HR, another panelist, etc.) is even slightly less competent…it becomes 100x worse. Good luck and I hope the new hire makes it worth the hassle!

    2. But maybe not*

      Both can be true.

      Remember…

      “Higher education is slow. Hang in there.” AAM user Pam Adams, July 12 open thread

    3. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      All of it

      I am going to partially blame the increased reliance on job posting sites and applicant tracking software/HR tools. I think you get more garbage applications and people who are not even interested in the job. And depending on what you are using there seems to be a lot of prioritizing which jobs show up in searches which can make it hard for people to find your job

      Because it is also seeming to be more difficult from the applicant side. Jobs posted that don’t exist, so many garbage applications that faulty keyword searches are culling great candidates etc.

      But Staff and Academia screams underpaid (I am staff in academia). I have great benefits, but academic staff jobs want advanced skills but pay barely above minimum so the only candidates we get are minimum skills.

      1. But maybe not*

        My higher ed staff peers and I scan the job board daily to find the most egregious cases of “Must have a PhD and do 18 different skill set jobs. Pay: $45K/yr, one year term”

      2. Justme, The OG*

        This position is fairly well paid (it’s my old position from before I was promoted) but I know we have large industry locally who pays much more. We have people with PhDs applying when it only required a Bachelor’s, so I know we won’t pay enough for them. Not to mention the job requisition took two months to go through.

        1. But maybe not*

          Something I highly recommend, if your HR process will allow it, is to conduct a phone screen with your qualified candidates with just a few questions that most definitely include:

          -I know the job posting says ______, but here are the things the job will actually do. Does that fit with your understanding of the position?
          -The hiring range for the position is X to X. Does that fit in with your salary expectations?

          IME we very regularly get candidates who a) think they will be able to negotiate above the hiring range, b) think the job is a higher level than it is, c) somehow think that just getting a foot in at the university will lead to a faculty position. By having a frank conversation from the get-go, I can usually get those folks to self-select out so we don’t get all the way to the offer stage to find out we couldn’t possibly meet their expectations.

          1. Higher Ed Expat*

            Yes to all of this. I often had people with PhDs applying for my Student Activities admin coordinator thinking they could move into other roles. It was a good chance to really let them know about the job, salary, and the career path. Most were not actually interested.

        2. Dr. QT*

          As someone with a PhD who was trying SO HARD to get out of adjuncting full time for 16k a year, even a modest or low paying job with benefits still paid enough. I’m pretty sure I didn’t get interviews on some jobs because people thought that with a Ph.D. what they were offering wouldn’t be enough, but the job market is pretty bad for a lot of Drs who were trying to make it in academia before giving up. The hiring manager asked why I would be interested in the job I have now at the stated salary and I was like “this is so much of a raise for me, and also less stress than teaching 3-4 classes a semester.”

        3. STEM Admin*

          I thought the same thing. But the job market is not great for PhD-level positions, and frankly some of my recent hires just want to get away from the insane faculty asks and uncertain funding year to year and are looking forward to the perks of being on the admin side, like stable employment, guaranteed COLAs, 40ish-hour schedules, and attainable career advancement paths. I’ve got a couple of doctorate-level staff that are crushing it and appear to be pretty happy. I did have very clear pre-interview conversations about salaries and expectations. When we go forward with an offer, I spend time working with them to get their resumes as HR-friendly as possible to ensure an offer at the top of our budget (they assume everyone understands what being a faculty member entails and how it is directly relevant to the admin side – HR absolutely does not understand this).

    4. TheyCallMeMISTERPepper*

      Education hiring can be very slow anyway but if their fiscal year runs July to June it’ll bog down even more. Normal spending freezes in May while they do final budget reconciliation, sweeping remaining balances in individual accounts, and getting that money allocated and spent before the end of the fiscal year. So they usually have a backlog of “regular” stuff to handle when July starts along with all the new fiscal year stuff. And the priority will be getting faculty hiring done in time for the Fall semester.

    5. Nesprin*

      Yes, it’s always a pain, and in higher ed, it will be many pains in many rears because of institutional inertia, number of decision makers and the piss poor likelihood that a low performer would be fired.

    6. Bitte Meddler*

      My department recently made an offer to the candidate that we all agreed was the best fit. She has hemmed-and-hawed for almost a week, telling our internal recruiter that she needs to “sit with the offer and feel it.”

      She’s good, so I assume she’s juggling at least one other offer, but she could have said that instead of the “woo” answer she gave, which has caused us to kind of reconsider how good of a candidate she really is.

      This isn’t a position where you need to “feel it” in order to make a decision or do your day-to-day work.

        1. Bitte Meddler*

          Oh, I get the “sit with it” part, but the “I need to feel it” part left us all scratching our heads.

        2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          Yeah, I agree, but it is an odd way to say it to a potential manager.

          A full 7-day week might be pushing it, but I’d think 4-5 days would still be reasonable for pondering a job offer. I’m a person who puts a bunch of things in my Amazon cart and then I have to “sit with it, and feel it” sometimes for quite a while before I hit the check out and that’s a lot lower stakes on my life than a new job. She might not even have a second offer — she could be doing some network reconnaissance on the department culture.

    8. Joe Momma*

      It’s probably worse because you’re in higher ed. I’m applying for admin staff positions at some colleges and universities now and the applications are clunky, they want all these references and cover letters and mission statements and there’s a million questions up front. Plus you usually have to pay for parking on the job and the pay is barely worth it. I imagine a lot of good candidates get turned off to the process if there are private companies in your area hiring for the same position types.

    10. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      I’d say both; but the thing is, there’s higher ed and then there’s higher ed. When I worked for a state institution, it took AGES because job descriptions had to have a certain amount of parity, there were legit union-versus-academic professional issues, various levels had to sign off, etc. But I sisn’t mind it, because everything was transparent, defined and agreed upon. Plus, there was recourse via both the union and the access & equity office.

      Working at a private university, things took AGES for absolute bullshit reasons. Nothing was transparent; HR was the upper administration’s bitch. I really think they totally invented a “salary band” on an ad hoc basis only when someone asked. Job descriptions were a joke. There was no recourse even in the face of demonstrable (i.e. can prove it via documentation in court) discrimination.

      My point is that higher ed hiring is always going to be a long process, but the reasons for that slow process really matter.

    11. A Person*

      Honestly once I’ve actually gotten headcount AND recruiter allocation (which can be rough) it hasn’t been a huge pain. Right now the biggest headache is really the volume of resumes to sift through – there are plenty of good candidates and we have a pretty defined process for the recruiter / interview / etcetera. This is the corporate / tech world.

  18. Tradd*

    I’m a long time customs broker/in international transportation. The worldwide tech outage because of the CloudStrike software update glitch has affected airlines bad. I’ve got several air shipments delayed because of this. The customers are just rude. Yelling at me on the phone when they received my email with notice of the delay. People are so unprofessional. I included a link to a news article about the issues in case they were aware. They didn’t believe me. The news article was from a reputable source. Idiots. Just idiots.

    1. Ugh People*

      Ugh. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I have a relative who works for a company that was affected by the Baltimore Bridge Collapse and clients just didn’t understand that they truly didn’t know when certain containers would arrive since everything was being rerouted. Like you, they included news articles and it still didn’t help them understand.

      I hope your day and weekend get better.

      1. Tradd*

        Thank you! We have a big customer in the Baltimore area whose containers go into Baltimore. The morning of the Baltimore bridge collapse, the executive we deal with was calling one of my company’s owners around 6am, yelling about his containers. Dude has since proved himself to be a dick multiple times since then. His containers from China have just started shipping into Baltimore again in the past several weeks.

        1. Tio*

          Back during one of the west coast strikes, I had a customer who wanted to know when his container was coming. I explained the strikes and that his container was at the port and had no idea but were seeing month long wait times. He emailed back, copied in my boss, and said “Please teach [Tio] how to answer a question!”

          Eff you, jerk. I hope your container never gets there and your next one falls into the ocean. People get so crappy about delays like that which we have zero control over.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Ah, yes, the “make them tell me what I want to hear so I can freak out when it doesn’t happen” customer.

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      I think sometimes it helps as a customer to know EXACTLY what went wrong. Just saying “the system is down” doesn’t cut it. Is it down because a building got flooded? Was it hacked? What’s the timeline for fixing it.

      I commiserate with you but so many of the articles are frustratingly light on details. And when we’ve had local outages here this level of non-detail meant we had to wait either five minutes or three days. I wish they gave any details. The fear of the unknown stresses people

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          I know but I’m saying that many of the MSM articles are light on details. “so so and was impacted and CEO apologized” but people want to know SPECIFICALLY what broke and why and how and when they’re fixing it. Apologies if you found an article explaining that and sent it, I’m assuming you couldn’t since most articles are so generic

          1. Tradd*

            I knew from elsewhere I hang out online that everything happened when CloudStrike pushed out an untested update. Lots of IT guys on that site. I had an article that mentioned that. I specifically searched for that. But basically, many people are so ignorant about tech stuff, it really wouldn’t matter. I saw so many people on social media saying Microsoft caused this.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              I read Microsoft as “Minecraft,” and realized that it probably was interchangeable for far too many people.

    3. jasmine*

      Ugh why do some people think that being a punching bag is part of other people’s job descriptions? Go work out your frustration by yelling into a pillow or something. Sorry you have to deal with these jerks

    4. Too Many Tabs Open*

      That really stinks, and I’m sorry that you’re having to deal with jerks. What do they expect you to do, graft wings onto your back and go pick up the shipment yourself?

    5. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      It’s literally front page news on every outlet. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, but the scope of this issue is so vast that it’s affecting almost everyone in the world in some fashion. If someone yells at you, fire back with “You will not speak to me that way, please control yourself or I will be forced to end the call.”

      2. Tradd*

        Actually what I did was hold phone away from my ear as he was screaming. When he stopped to take a breath, I told him I would get back to him this afternoon, regardless of if we had more info or not. I was polite. He was spluttering. I said good bye and hung up.

    6. AnonToday*

      Ironically, we were spared the Windows update issue by a power outage that lasted almost 8 hours. Which caused other issues of course.

    7. BellaStella*

      Well I have been tracking this since 6am my time (CEST) and it is a huge mess making news globally now, 13 hrs later. I am sorry these people are rude to you. Try to ignore it and also ignore the temptation to say, “I told you so” when they figure out the news is real.

    8. periwinkle*

      Ah, memories. Once upon a time I worked in tech support for a software/hardware manufacturer in Silicon Valley. One Monday morning we had more than a few irate phone calls – “I called last week and no one answered! Where were you guys?”

      Well, we had to wait until our building was inspected and deemed safe for use. The previous Tuesday had been October 17, 1989. “Sorry, we had a huge earthquake. Perhaps you saw it on the news?”

      (to be fair, a lot of people back then were unaware that Silicon Valley was close to San Francisco, but still…)

    9. ScruffyInternHerder*

      I’ve sent those news articles today to someone who couldn’t understand why a proposal could not be turned in via a supported software, along with a statement from the software service themselves that they were down. And no, they wanted it submitted through the software, because reasons. (I’ll give them that they may be legit reasons…but if the service is down, you can stomp your feet all you want, its not happening today. You get today or through the service, regardless what you want.)

      The stupid and unprofessional are real high today, unfortunately. I hope the idiots chill for you.

    10. Always Tired*

      I have had several phone calls with flustered SCAs (the elevator fire detection system won’t shut up and the FSA & COBRA portals are down) who all sound at the end of their rope and I was just like “…clowdstrike?” and when they said yes just told them to hang in there and I’ll wait for updates. Cause none of you caused this.

      What I’m saying is: hang in there, bestie. you don’t deserve such treatment, but I appreciate all your hard work.

    11. goddessoftransitory*

      “Yes, Customer, I MADE UP a global outage just to screw you over! That’s how we roll here at Tradd Inc.!”

      FFS.

        1. Digital Hubbub*

          I expect if you had that kind of power, a suspicious number of your more unreasonable clients would land on Pluto with instructions to walk back (and, y’know, supplies and air, cos you sound like a nice person.) And with anger management courses, for something to do on the way…
          Sorry to hear you’re dealing with unreasonable people again! Thank you for your insights into customs too.

          1. Tradd*

            Unreasonable people are quite common in my industry. The just in time inventory thing definitely is NOT a good thing.

            And speaking of customs…yesterday they needed to get a form returned to me that they had signed (wet signature). Officer I spoke with claimed they didn’t have a working scanner in the office. Given this is one of the larger offices, I suspect officer was lazy and didn’t want to walk around the building to find another one. Or maybe they’re restricted to using what’s in their department. He wanted to FAX it to me. When I told him we don’t have a fax anymore, he suggested we come and pick up the paperwork in person. They’re half the country away from me! I asked if he had any coworkers with a work issued smartphone. If so, I could walk him through scanning to PDF with the phone. JPEG sucks for documents. He was astonished you could do that. A few minutes later, I had the form. LOL

    13. Working On My Night Cheese*

      Ugh, I am so sorry. I remember getting chewed out by a customer on 9/11 when I was trying to explain that their package could not be shipped next-day air because all planes were grounded. They just didn’t get it.

    14. merida*

      Ugh, I am so sorry! People are unreal. May you have a much much better weekend ahead of you!

      1. Tradd*

        Thank you! I have a bit of work to take home with me (hot air freight to clear), but I’m otherwise going to spend it reading and being a veg!

        1. Snow Angels in the Zen Garden*

          This made me smile. No idea what it means, but it made me mentally visualize trying to deliver orders via hot air ballooon. I hope you have a relaxing weekend.

    15. Peanut Hamper*

      This reminds of the people who were complaining that their video game orders were being delayed because of the Tohoku/Fukushima incident. Yes, I’m sorry you’ll have to continue to wait to play your game, which is infinitely worse than thousands of people dying. Oh, no!

      People can be selfish and inconsiderate and entitled. I have nothing but sympathy for you.

  19. Tiny clay insects*

    For those of you who own your own business (not a bricks-and-mortar), how did you know when it was time to hire someone else? And how did you know when you could safely step back from working at your 9-5 job? I feel like I’m at this weird point with my travel business where I’m completely overwhelmed and overworked but can’t tell if it would be sustainable to either hire someone else (and I don’t even know how that would work–I want to do it right, you know?), or if I can (and do I want to?) step back from my teaching job? I need to figure out my life.

    1. PX*

      The first question is can you afford to hire someone else. Thats an easy numbers question – what’s your revenue, are you profitable etc. The second is usually when (as you say) you reach the point of not being able to manage it effectively due to other competing demands. At which point, it helps to figure out what things take up the most time and can you outsource those.

      1. Tiny clay insects*

        We are profitable. (I say “we” because my husband and I run it together.) Last year went really well, this year is shaping up to be good but not as good as last year (probably because I’m exhausted and hustling a little less). But I have no idea how to, like, make sure we pay someone correctly, do things right taxwise, etc. I also worry that what if we pay someone and then that uses all our profit and I don’t bring any additional money and we are in a worse place? The problem with my thinking is that it always leads to me grinding myself into dust working too much….

        1. PX*

          Based on your other comment Id suggest finding some resources to read up and educate yourself on. People on here have recommended local council business bureau/support type places, personally I would look online for resources for small businesses or entrepreneurs and start there. Maybe even your bank if you have a local branch might be able to provide support.

          But all your questions to me sound like ones that can be answered with research or a session with a proper finance/business coach.

        2. Two Dog Night*

          You can definitely use Quickbooks to do payroll, including submitting payroll taxes (at least if you’re in the US). But you might also want to hire an account to help with that–it would cost more, but this is one area where you really don’t want to make mistakes.

          If you did hire someone, would that free up enough of your time that you could bring in more business without exhausting yourself? Seems to me that’s the crux of the question.

    2. Just One Idea of Many*

      I know not everyone likes him…but just yesterday I heard Dave Ramsey on the radio talking with someone who was trying to figure out when to jump ship totally from their day job to their entrepreneurial venture. So this is just one idea. The advice was to (a) have a good emergency fund of 6 months plus an additional 6 months, and (b) to be making about 75% of what the day job makes in the new business. This was also for someone who was single (so no other income to depend on), and of course depends on how much more than your living expenses your day job makes, etc. They likened it to NOT jumping ship, but pulling aside to the dock and just stepping off.

      1. Tiny clay insects*

        While I’m not gonna take Ramsey’s advice about managing my money (he can pry my excellent 3% cash back credit cards from my cold, dead hands), I really like that he has a metric for that. Because honestly I think that’s what I need. I didn’t go to business school (my husband and I are professors, and not in businessy subjects!), and I don’t know, like, what the signs are.

        So having something concrete like that is actually really helpful. We aren’t there with our savings but we aren’t hugely far off, and our business made more than my teaching salary last year, by a fair amount. (It’s harder to estimate the numbers since it was two of us doing the work, not just me, but I fully handle one aspect of the business, plus parts of other aspects, and my aspect alone brought in, actually, 75% of my teaching salary. So maybe it’s not as hard to estimate as I thought. :-) )

        I like knowing that quantifiable metrics exist. My husband and I are fairly risk averse with out money, and we want to make sure we are set up well for retirement (we will get a pension from our teaching job but it isn’t enough on its own), and we want enough cushion to help out my young-adult step kids if need be, etc.

        So, thank you. Despite me not being a fan of Dave Ramsey generally, I really like this and am going to seek out more info, and also check with other sources, too.

    3. Jen*

      One other point—if you want to step back from teaching and you’re overwhelmed, would it make sense to do that before hiring someone else? You would have more time to devote to the business and wouldn’t be paying for someone else’s salary out of the profits. Not sure what your teaching situation is like, but if the business fails you’d probably be able to teach again somewhere.

  20. HR DOO*

    I’m really just venting. I strongly dislike “it’s not my job” responses and I’m getting it a lot from a department admin. Their manager is in the process of managing them out, but I’m at the point where I just want to send them their job description and say “actually, it is your job.”

    Ughhhhh

    Admittedly, their manager is not the best at confrontations with strong personalities. I am working with the manager’s manager on this, but still!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      When I first started reading your comment, my immediate thought was “But it’s not their job,” but apparently it is is their job. Yikes! I’m sorry you have to deal with that.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        I thought the same. Is this person “not my job” at you (OP) or just in general with everyone?

        My department had an admin for a while who seemed confused as to whether she was the department admin or the ED’s admin. It was fine with her if the ED told her to do something, but it wasn’t “her job” if anyone else did. The ED let it go for way too long because…well… it wasn’t a problem for him and the rest of us were just “being mean” to her. Once it became a problem for him, it started getting addressed, and then she left.

    2. But maybe not*

      So, maybe it isn’t your place to send them their job description and say “actually, it is your job,” but their manager certainly should. Even if they’ve already done it before. They should be doing it pretty much every time.

      I had a direct report who wasn’t doing their job and I found it’s because they truly didn’t think it was their job. We had to go through their job description line by line and talk about what it meant until I could be sure they understood what their job was and that they were being held accountable to that. They ended up leaving after a few months, but at least they knew they couldn’t gloss over responsibilities they thought were beneath them or out of scope.

    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      What does the person say when you tell them that it is in their job description?

      1. HR DOO*

        I’ve only done this once, at a point of frustration, and they got snappy. The employee has been having some attitude issues this year, and I’ve already had to speak to them about this previously. Their manager is in the process of managing them out, but they’re stretching out the time schedule of the performance discussions and the manager’s manager is already working with them on this. As HR, I can only guide the manager and they still need to do the performance managing.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      Spinoff: I really dislike managers who don’t like/aren’t good at confrontation to the point that they don’t manage effectively.

      1. HR DOO*

        Unfortunately, the industry I’m in is full of them. The only way up is into managerial positions. So if you’re really, really good at the functional aspect of your job you’ll be moved into a managerial position by the C-Suite, and then we have to train these new managers on how to manage people.

      2. JS*

        Same. Especially when managers are content to let everyone else not getting paid to manage the issue deal with it.

        1. Cinn*

          At an old job I was once asked by my line manager to manage my current project manager. The cheek of which still confounds me to this day. (And it wasn’t like I’d ever said I’d like to try and get some managerial experience, in fact I’d actually said the opposite in that I had no interest in managing.)

    5. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have been lucky to only have a similar situation once. I had to start sending my request to her manager and her.
      First time iresorted to that, I blandly addressed the issue before the problem personhad a chance to refuse. Something like this:
      “Hi William, here is the data for the monthly XYZ task due Friday.
      Hi Charles, if this is no longer William’s responsibility please ask William to train the new person, and let me know who that is.”

    6. Quinalla*

      I’d just send to their manager and make it their problem.

      Or you can play the act like you don’t understand what they mean “Oh, do you mean you are too busy to take this on? Let me see if manager can prioritize this in front of something else.” Sound like a headache, but at this point it is really the manager who is the problem.

  21. Oh So Very Anon*

    OK, I realize there was a big discussion earlier this week about hot weather clothing vs the arctic office settings. I know that dressing for an interview has many layers of intersectionality, as well as all the unspoken cultural norms

    AND AT THE SAME TIME

    I had an applicant who arrived wearing shorts and at-shirt. For the record, he was not interviewing for a lifeguard position. This was for an office job.

    It was for a llama writing position. When asked about writing samples, he replied, “Oh, was I supposed to bring those?” And the final plot twist: Internal applicant. Dude should have known better.

    The sad part is: he came in second place out of all the applicants. One guy had the personality of moss. One guy sat through the entire in person interview with his eyes closed and never actually answered the questions we asked him.

    The “winning” applicant showed up on time, prepared with writing samples, note taking equipment, questions, and pants. He asked questions about more than the salary and benefits, and answered the questions posed to him.

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Whoa, I’m a writer and have been for years, and I would NOT show up to an interview with writing samples. I would expect you to have already read my samples on my portfolio website, which is on my resume. If an interviewer expected me to have them in hand, I would consider it pretty rude, like they couldn’t be bothered to do their due diligence before I walked through the door. I have never, ever been asked to have writing samples for the interview.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I have been asked ABOUT writing samples at an interview, but the expectation is usually that I will have some to provide afterward by email or a website to point people at.

        That said, I wouldn’t expect someone to have read my work before the interview; hiring managers rarely have that much time to prep.

      2. mreasy*

        I agree that in general, candidates are no longer commonly expected to have printouts of the work they’ve submitted ahead. And for a writing job I would think it was weird not to have been asked to submit samples ahead!

      3. Oh So Very Anon*

        For the record: There was no website on his resume. I have always brought samples and a copy of my resume to every interview. Suspenders and a belt.

        What type of writing do you do?

        1. Morgan Proctor*

          You really should have asked for samples in the job listing. I am 38 and I have never, ever brought either samples or my resume to any interview, nor have I even been asked for either during the interview.

          I work in the entertainment industry, but I have also done marketing/advertising copywriting. I’ve never been asked to bring samples to the interview. It’s standard to submit samples during the application process.

          1. Oh So Very Anon*

            And therein lies the difference. We work in manufacturing and engineering. I’m glad it works for you and where you are.

            1. Manufacturing Writing*

              I write for heavy equipment manufacturing and industrial automation (CMMS, etc.) and have for over 20 years. I don’t have physical writing samples.

              Part of my job is to manage the print vendors. First articles are shipped to the QA team at one branch, and final articles are shipped to our field employees. I’d have to special order copies for headquarters if I wanted writing samples, at a significant additional cost.

              Your interview process is the problem here. You need to have applicants submit a portfolio or individual sample files as part of the application.

            2. Morgan Proctor*

              Sorry, you still need to ask for samples beforehand, it is SO standard across all industries. A few years ago I went through several rounds of interviews for a technical writer role for a construction company. They still asked for samples beforehand, and when I showed up for the first interview, the interviewer had printed out my samples and resume.

              I think your hiring practices are at fault here. You didn’t end up with a single viable candidate. You’re complaining about your #1 pick publicly on this website. I think you can do better.

              1. Oh So Very Anon*

                I’m complaining about 2-4.
                The rest is a fair cop. My company is behind the times.

            3. Seeking Second Childhood*

              25-year senior tech writer.
              Writing samples brought IF they are requested.

          2. Dread Pirate Roberts*

            Yeah, it’s probably been 20 years since I’ve brought a hard copy resume and samples to an interview. I have a portfolio site on my resume but many places ask for samples in the application process, and some a written test as part of the interview, if not both.

      4. Ricotta*

        I haven’t even HAD print writing samples in over a decade. I’d have to take screenshots and go to a Kinko’s to get color copies made.

      5. BringSamples*

        I’ve been a writer for more than 30 years and I’ve never gone to an interview without writing samples. When interviewing writers I’d look askance at someone with your attitude.

        The samples I have available online are different from the ones I bring with me. Many of the paper samples are things I’m not allowed to post online. Some I’m not allowed to let someone take out of my sight. Some I can let people photocopy- not scan – as long as I recite a spiel at them. Every writer I know has a lot of non-public samples they’re only allowed to use in person and that come with restrictions and requirements to recite rules at people who look at them.

        In most cases I have explicitly been asked to bring writing samples to interviews or asked to provide specific samples that came up during the interview later if they aren’t among those I have with me onsite. For remote interviews I explain I have limited samples available online and can provide a wider array if we meet in person.

        Even if all of your samples are online, your attitude is still offputting and I would still expect you to have some stuff with you for discussion in the interview if warranted.

    2. PX*

      This…sounds like a bad pool overall…which also raises some questions about how screening was done? Did they all seem like good candidates based on CV/phone screens?

      1. Oh So Very Anon*

        I work in a tech heavy area where there have been a lot of layoffs. We’ve noticed that we are getting a lot of writing-adjacent people who think they qualify.

    3. Fluffy Fish*

      sometimes internal candidates do the worst because they assume they don’t have to really compete.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      One guy sat through the entire in person interview with his eyes closed and never actually answered the questions we asked him.

      What the H*ll?

      1. Oh So Very Anon*

        Oh, he responded. At length. But the response had little relation to the question.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      Is no one else going to comment on the fact he arrived to a job interview wearing shorts? Samples or no samples, I would’ve turned him around at the door.

      1. Uranus Wars*

        I know; the focus is on the samples but the attire is what stumps me. Especially from an internal applicant? Maybe he thought he didn’t have to try as hard? And if he is internal he’d know they are behind in how they do things so maybe he’d have asked if he needed to bring anything?

        OP sorry you are going through this, though. Definitely frustrating. Sounds like if #1 doesn’t accept you might need to go back to the drawing board – or prep your internal candidate and offer him a 2nd interview and ask him to give you samples or a virtual portfolio?

        1. PotatoRock*

          If shorts in general are acceptable at your office (and you mentioned tech; not all but probably 25% of the male engineers wear shorts in summer at my engineering office), I can kind of see it – it’s closer to “not dressing up for an internal interview”

          1. InterviewWear*

            I wear shorts and tank tops to work. I wear a suit, or at least a dress/nice blouse and long skirt to interviews.

            I once had someone show up for an interview in a T-shirt and jeans. I went ahead with the interview and later hot yelled at by my boss for wasting my time talking to him. I just can’t imagine shorts….

    6. BellaStella*

      Ahahahah this is brilliant: “The “winning” applicant showed up on time, prepared with writing samples, note taking equipment, questions, and pants.” Love this sentence. Am glad you got a good new hire.

    7. Ready for the weekend*

      I’m a writer who has a closet full of office casual clothes. Happy to send you my resume and work samples. :)

    8. Reebee*

      Commiserating and I love this: “One guy had the personality of moss.”

      But I’m sorry this is happening for you.

  22. mymotherwasahamster*

    Hi all, I’m a US citizen earning a Master’s in compliance & integrity management in Germany. As part of my thesis on “AI in Companies’ Ethics & Compliance Function,” I’m comparing German & US perspectives on the (anticipated) use of AI as a compliance tool.

    It’s a bit of a long shot, but this commentariat is great so why not. Is there anyone here in a US-based compliance role who’d be open to a 30-45 minute interview on the opportunities and challenges they’re seeing as AI becomes more integrated into the compliance sphere? (I’m all squared away with German interview partners.) Results will be anonymized.

    What I’m especially interested in is not only how AI plays a role in a company’s compliance division but also if, and why or why not. For example, why has a company opted for or against the use of AI? Which resources did the company draw on in this decision-making process? Which tasks lend themselves to AI and why? Which hurdles stand in the way of implementing AI and what are the risks? And what role does company culture play in these deliberations?

    If this is something you’d be open to, it would be helpful to conduct interviews by the end of July or early August at the latest, and of course I’d arrange my schedule around yours. Please email me at k2p1k2p1@gmail.com.

    Thanks all, happy Friday!

    1. Tio*

      Do we have to be named in the writing? I’d have to clear with my company if so, and may limit what I can speak on. But I’m a US customs broker in international trade compliance.

      1. mymotherwasahamster*

        Nope, all responses will be written up as anonymous. If that works, I think the easiest way to coordinate is via the email address above—I’d love to speak with you!

  23. Quartermaster*

    How to deal with coworkers telling me I can’t get a new job/go on vacation? My work has been really stressful lately due to a huge change with an outside contractor that I mostly deal with. I didn’t love this job to begin with, but with all the changes my job search has kicked back into high gear. My coworkers value the work I do, which is nice, but they are constantly saying things like “don’t you leave over this!” and I have no idea how to respond. Similarly, whenever I take any time off, the day I come back everyone is telling me what a mess it was while I was gone. I think this is supposed to make me feel valued, but it truly makes me want to turn around and never come back and I don’t know how to respond.

    1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Do you have to respond? How about non-commitally smile and nod, and then change the subject.

    2. Morgan Proctor*

      You don’t need to respond. You can just smile, or shrug, or both. They’re the crazy ones, not you.

    3. Sneaky Squirrel*

      If your coworkers are saying it, it might just be smart to take it as praise and ignore it. If your management is saying this or if you’re feeling this way, then you need to have a conversation with your boss about ensuring your team has the capacity to take on tasks when you’re out.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      Ignore them. This is ridiculous and doesn’t merit a response.

      I hope you’re searching.

      1. Jen*

        I have a similar reaction when people at my job say how glad they are to have me. It annoys me to no end because internally I’m thinking about how I’m still not seeing a raise.

        1. The Unionizer Bunny*

          Is your manager aware of how highly-valued you are by the team? This feels like a strong position for negotiating that raise. When they tell you this, ask if they’re willing to come with you when you ask the boss for a raise. If they aren’t, their praise will look pretty empty, and if they are, you know their feelings are real. Try starting this when someone whose work you value asks – you can offer to come with them for their raise request. You are both then witnesses to how the boss responded to each of you . . . come to think of it, maybe delay this approach until we see whether the NLRB (which enforces legal protections for this kind of concerted activity) is gutted.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Yes, this. If a lot of people are saying this, I’m wondering if there’s some other toxicity in this office that the coworkers are also reacting to.

    6. Joielle*

      I was getting a lot of this a couple months ago because of a massive project I ended up in charge of despite it being wildly outside of my job description or area of expertise. It ended up going REALLY well but I was definitely stressed about it and a lot of people said some variation of “please don’t leave!” Little did they know, I was already applying elsewhere for a long list of reasons and this big stressful project was just the icing on the cake.

      Most of the time I just laughed or said “ha, I’m living the dream” or something vague. A couple of times when I was REALLY at the end of my rope I said “you never know!” Even with this (I thought) pretty clear indication that I was ready to quit, people were uniformly shocked when I announced my resignation.

      I think they really are just trying to say how much you’re valued and how much they sympathize with the stress, but I agree that it’s super grating. Even more grating when it’s coming from the person who’s causing the stress.

    7. Future*

      It’s probably just joking/praise! No reasonable person would actually mean that, and unless everyone at your job is nuts, they would be happy for you to be moving on to greener pastures. (And if they aren’t, their opinions are pretty low-value.)

  24. NCA*

    Anyone else on the IT side of the Crowdstrike issue today? Whomph it’s zany out here. At least I’m just a report monkey now

    1. CL*

      It’s chaos. The CrowdStrike problem is bad but then it’s also figuring out if all the other issues are related or coincidental.

    2. Nicki Name*

      Thankfully my company doesn’t use Cloudstrike itself, but several of our vendors are in a world of hurt.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        My company was planning on switching to crowdstrike next month.

        I assume that plan is at the very least delayed.

    3. Choggy*

      Yep, while my company was not directly affected, some of our vendors who support our customers were. They have been able to get their systems working in a fairly short amount of time.

    4. Anon in IL*

      I read the news and fully expected to get the blue screen of death this morning. I run the Crowdstrike endpoint sensor on a Windows 10 laptop. Yet everything is working normally (fingers crossed). Does it only affect desktops? Grateful if any IT person can weigh in on why this would be.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Several of my coworkers are/were affected on their work laptops. I put my computer to sleep rather than restarting, and I got on just fine this morning.

      2. Wendy Darling*

        It definitely impacts laptops, alas.

        Theoretically Crowdstrike have already resolved the issue, so if you don’t have it I thiiiiink you should be in the clear? (Caveat: I do not work in IT, I work in an adjacent field and am just a nerd.)

        The current problem seems to be that the impacted machines are crashing too soon to get on the internet and download the update. In that case in order to fix it you have to boot into safe mode/recovery and delete a file, which requires having actual hands on the machine and isn’t something a non-tech-savvy user can necessarily do without instruction. So the going is extremely slow.

    5. Tiny clay insects*

      Thank goodness, no. I am in the travel industry, though, and I cannot overstate how relieved I am that I don’t have any clients flying today.

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        OOF. Thoughts and prayers for my former colleagues and customers at a leisure travel wholesaler.

    6. Nia*

      It has not been great. We’re back up and running but now we have to fix all the processes that were supposed to run last night. Our company was nice enough to buy us lunch though so that’s something I guess.

      1. Anon for today*

        Yes. The answer is very much yes. I work in Crowdstrike Support. It’s been a FUN day.

    8. Blarg*

      I know this is wrong/bad, but I was kind of sad that my computer/network worked just fine this morning. Especially cause the heat wave in DC has finally lifted and it is quite nice out.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        If you’re not in charge of fixing the messes it’s causing it’s got a bit of a snow day vibe, doesn’t it?

        1. AnonForThisOne*

          My cloud infrastructure at work has been down since Tuesday (they are working on it but it’s slow going) so we’ve all been working by going directly to the vendor websites we use.

          Today some of those vendor websites were also down.

          Not sure if snow day is the right description…but I watched all of Buying London on Netflix.

    9. GythaOgden*

      It apparently affected National Health Service clinical and GP facilities, although not our facilities business, luckily enough. After local utilities issues — a water main leak needed fixing at 3am and a power cut last week — I’m glad I dodged that bullet.

  25. Pyanfar*

    Do you have other roles internally that would be a better fit with their strengths? I’ve found that “You are great/really good at X and Y and we are wasting your talents in a role that is 90% Z.” can be a good opening to a conversation about what they want to do next/after that. Then maybe you can shift this role to more X and Y and see where that goes. Don’t be afraid to remind them of your EAP (if you have one) or that their insurance coverage covers all their health, not just annual checkups.

  26. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    Career pivoters, especially those who went from regular employee to starting their own business/self-employment, I’d love to hear your stories. The good and the bad.

    1. Bitte Meddler*

      The biggest hurdle from me was all the legal and compliance stuff. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but there wasn’t one single place I could go to to find everything relevant to my business. My local Small Business Administration office was a good start but, several years in, I was still finding things I didn’t know I should have known.

      Also, make sure you set your business up so that it offers you legal and financial protection from any business liabilities. So, don’t be a sole proprietor, but become an LLC, LLP, or corporation. (LLC’s and LLP’s have less reporting requirements, fyi).

      1. TitleAgent*

        Second the advice on estimated taxes. My accountant and I huddle before each payment is due so that I remit an amount that is based on my income for the period. It’s a pain, but so are penalties for underpayment.

    2. Miette*

      Your user name: I love it!

      Not sure if you’re looking for advice or war stories. Here’s some of the former:

      Quarterly estimated tax is a b*tch, and it’s so much more than what you’ve ever had withheld before, so plan accordingly. By that I mean: make sure your rate covers it, and that you are saving enough of what you earn back to pay taxes next year.

      My rule of thumb for rates to charge: double what your hourly rate is at work. More if you feel you can swing it.

      Understand your monthly expenses so you know how much you have to bill/work in order to cover it.

      Speak with an accountant about whether or not to remain a sole proprietor or set up an LLC. I am a freelance marketer and my bro (a CPA) advised me it wasn’t necessary. I do have liability insurance, however, just in case.

      Do track things you spend for tax time–though most folks will use the standard deduction, you never know. Also, it’s best to have a dedicated credit card for biz expenses to make that easier.

      Speaking of taxes, to the extent you can, set up a a SEP-IRA for yourself so you don’t derail retirement savings. The money you put in there is tax deductible, whereas other IRAs may not be. This will make a big difference at tax time, and if you’re saving to a Roth or other IRA anyway, it’s better to at least have the money you’re saving/investing be tax deductible, right?

      Good luck!

  27. This is Fine*

    Hugs and solidarity to anyone else dealing with the global outages today- particularly from a customer service/support standpoint.

    1. merida*

      +100 For real, I cannot imagine the number of stressful work days throughout the globe that are happening today because of the outage!

  28. Disheartened Non-Profit Worker*

    Hi, folx. Part question, part commiseration post. Question: Why do employers (a non-profit, in this instance) not just give good employees a raise/promotion, rather than lose them and have to go through the trouble of hiring and training a potentially worse replacement?  Do employers know this, or should employees send clearer signals?  And, once you’ve left that job for a new opportunity, how do you get over it?

    Background: I was high-level at Old Non-profit and had been there for years.  I was given empty promises of a raise and promotion for nearly a year, mostly during a time of difficult transition which I helped navigate, including taking on increased responsibilities.  I made the ask (to the Executive Director and Board) clear, though I never out-right threatened to leave.  Naturally, after 10+ months of empty promises, I started looking for a new job.  I was (relatively) quickly hired elsewhere in the same field for a 30% pay increase, the title I wanted, and the chance to use some skills that had been atrophying.  The new place is great!  And, since I’d grown as much as I could, moving elsewhere was objectively better for my career.  

    All’s well that ends well, right?  But I just do not understand – rationally – why the old non-profit would not just pay me more.  I would have stayed, honestly, for 5% more. (Some of this was inertia and my own risk-aversion, but I also loved the mission and am location-bound).  Without getting into the details, I have very specialized technical skills and had a wealth of institutional knowledge, plus, even though not part of my job, I was oddly good at fundraising. They’ve had trouble replacing me, I’ve heard.  Rationally, it just makes so much more sense to give me peanuts and keep me there.

    I don’t think the usual explanations for not giving me a raise/promotion apply.  Even though I was high-level and we were in a difficult transition, I made it very clear I did not want the top job, and the Board and staff seriously loved me.  That’s to say, I wasn’t pushed out.  The budget was tight, but the funds were there.  And I was very well-positioned to help the organization go in the post-transition new direction (due to specialized skills). There just does not seem to be a clear explanation for all the foot-dragging.

    Obviously I am having an emotional reaction to this.  Even though leaving was the best thing for my career, I think I felt undervalued and under-appreciated for a long time at Old Non-profit.  So, I think I may be having trouble emotionally moving on (hence a post in an online fora!).

    Thanks for any help making sense of this or any advice for moving forward.

    1. Leave Hummus Alone*

      I feel you and this is the million dollar question in a lot of industries, not just nonprofits. But I’m a lifelong nonprofit worker so I commiserate. To me, it’s leadership being penny wise, pound foolish, and thinking that people won’t transition out for better pay/life-balance/etc. etc. because they Believe in the Mission! And yes, we’re all as idealist as the next person, but passion doesn’t pay the bills!

      My advice is to work through the hurt and feeling under-valued/unappreciated because it can sometimes rear its ugly head in your new job. I learned that the only person who is going to watch out for me is me the hard way too, and I’m now thankfully at a place that pays fairly, with a great boss, and a mission that is important to me (and the world!). Sending you lots of appreciation for you being you!

      1. SansaStark*

        You’re very right about the MISSION! I’ve also found that sometimes they’re from the profession or community being served which means their skillsets aren’t always aligned with running a good “business.”

      2. ferrina*

        I agree with all this, especially the “penny-wise, pound-foolish” mentality.

        I’ve seen many managers pat themselves on the back for keeping budgets low, then being surprised pikachu when their underpaid workers leave. I’ve seen managers trod out all kinds of excuses for keeping their workers underpaid- “you aren’t senior enough” (said while telling the person about the new higher-level responsibilities they need to do, but why they can’t have the title/raise of the usual person doing those things); “we’re in a time of transition, but we’ll figure it out when things settle down” (then by the time things ‘settle down’ months later, there’s a new reason); “but you just got a raise!” (said after a company-wide COLA that didn’t even match inflation).

        Most of the time, it seems like the manager is justifying why they picked the easier battle. They didn’t want to fight for their people to receive good pay, but they also want to see themself as a good person. So they mentally find reasons to justify why their person doesn’t deserve a raise/can’t get a raise for reasons beyond the manager’s control. These people are so in their own head, that they sort of forget that their employees have their own needs and priorities. They also see the people leaving as one-off instances rather than a pattern, because again, it allows their brain to avoid the cognitive dissonance of “I’m a good person” vs “my workers are leaving because I won’t pay them their worth.”

        It sucks to be under-valued and under-appreciated. And for me, it sucked even more to realize that I let myself be under-valued for so long. But it’s always clearer in hindsight and with more experience (even if you have years of experience, if you have never been in a role where you’ve been strung along, it can still be hard to recognize it as it happens).

      3. Rainy*

        There’s a Journal of Personality & Social Psychology article from 2020 by Kim, Campbell, Shepherd, and Kay called “Understanding Contemporary Forms of Exploitation: Attributions of Passion Serve to Legitimize the Poor Treatment of Workers”. Basically, they ran a bunch of studies where they set up scenarios for people and then asked them if they thought it was exploitative to ask for extra unpaid work and/or demand tasks unconnected to the actual role from variously described workers, and they found that when a worker in a scenario was described in terms that equalled them being passionate about their work, the study participant was significantly more likely to say that exploitative requirements were justified by the worker’s passion.

        Compelling stuff for those of us in fields where “passion” is one of the unspoken requirements.

    2. SansaStark*

      My old job was like this. Everyone had either started less than 3 years ago, or had been there since time began. That’s a whole demographic of mid-career level people that they were missing. Everyone else left because of their overly-rigid salary/promotion/title change policy. It wasn’t a secret why they were hemorrhaging good people and why the replacements weren’t great, but they just absolutely refused to change how things had been done. I was also strung along and would have stayed for such a small amount of money, but (thankfully) an offer that I couldn’t refuse landed in my lap. I left a couple years ago and have a better title and far more money than I ever could have had at the old company. I miss a couple of the people there, but overall, I’m so much happier at a place that rewards employees for their excellent work with titles and (more importantly) money.

      It’s so hard to wrap your mind around these illogical choicest that these orgs make, but unless there’s a massive culture change that would probably take years, this is just how they will continue to operate.

    3. I'm late. My flight was cancelled*

      I’m with you. We also went through a crazy transition of losing 3 staff and taking 9-mos to replace them, including a Dev Director. When they hired the new staff they were so bad, I left, and then they all left because they couldn’t do their jobs or backfill mine. They also never re-filled my spot even now 4-mos later.

      I recently ended a contract with them to bring their fundraising activities to current, and train a temp (with ZERO experience). When I told them my previous rate expired and quoted a new rate, $20/hr more, as I was training a temp (with ZERO experience) vs a staff member, they didn’t want to continue. I’m like, ‘You’re going into a new campaign in 4 weeks with 1,000 gifts that need processing. You think you’re going to use transition docs alone (that I wrote, so I know they’re good), to get a temp prepared for that?”

      Also, today would have been my 3rd anniversary but I left a few months ago. I was re-affirmed that they’re no good for me anymore and I can’t go back again.

      I’m with you in so many ways. I was underpaid all along and when I said, “I would come back permanently but this is what I’d need to do so (a mere $4k/year).” they said no. So they’ll hire a new person, below the market rate (again), and expect big things from them going into the end of year fundraising (suuurrreeee)

    4. MsM*

      Could have been the combination of tight budget and transitional difficulties made them reluctant to dip into whatever cushion they had. Could have been they were holding out to get new leadership in place and see how they wanted to structure things. Could have been they just took it for granted you loved the mission more than you wanted the raise. (Something tells me at least part of the reason they’re having trouble filling the role is that they’re still not willing to pay for the qualifications they need, or the amount of work they’re asking.)

      Regardless, you’re out now, and you know what signs to look for if future employers don’t seem to be appropriately valuing your contributions. Focus on that.

    5. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      This is so common it is definitely not you.

      There was a major blow up where I work a couple of years ago because in order to hire they just had to start paying more. So people who had 10 years experience and a senior position were being paid less than new hires right out of college at the entry level position.

      Company risk/reward scenarios have rarely taken into account staffing changes. They never believe anyone would actually leave.

      1. Folly wants a cracker*

        I was in that position. As a specialist, I was hired at $42k in 2021. Went up to $44k and left at $46k. A Coordinator position (should be equal but do not) starts at $43-$47k while a new Administrator starts at $50k; it would take me several years of COLA at 2% to get to $50k which is what I could start at on the market, today.

    6. Busy Middle Manager*

      It does happen especially if someone grew into a new position but still gets treated like they’re more junior. But I also think this is a narrative that the internet has blown way out of proportion. You think it’s way more common than it is because everyone who’s seen it posts about it and makes a youtube video. On the flip side, no one ever answers the key question: if job hopping is how you get raises, why do so many peoples’ salaries level off at a certain level? One thing that’s frustrated me is people saying they “have to” job hop for raises but their salaries seem in line with people who’ve stuck it out at one or two employers. Maybe they got there quicker/more easily? Who knows.

      Also it’s a flawed way to view things because yes, you get a raise at the new job. But now you need to do some combination of: 1) learn a new job, 2) upskill yourself 3) deal with risk involved (is new boss actually crazy etc.) 4) maybe train in person for a while even if it’s WFH. Which raises the question of, are you actually getting paid more for the same work, or just for the same title?

      My POV is from places that always gave raises, over 20 years; we don’t post online saying “hey got a raise, just wanted to let everyone know”

      1. Mad Harry Crewe*

        Sounds like you lucked out with your management and employer, but your experience is far from universal. Lots of employers are happy to take advantage, ask for more work for the same pay, or make empty promises about raises that never materialize.

        Disheartened Non-Profit isn’t talking about a ‘narrative’, they’re talking about their own experience. You’re contrasting it with your own experience and declaring that your experience is the more universal. It’s not.

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          FWIW I worked at fortune 1000 companies before switching to a smaller company so I wasn’t just talking about me personally

      2. Bitte Meddler*

        See, and my POV is that every single substantial raise (more than a COLA plus 1-3%) I’ve ever gotten came when I changed jobs. Same with every single friend, acquaintance, and co-worker I’ve ever known.

        And, sure, my peers at my last job may eventually move from $95,000 to $125,000 with my old company’s typical 3-5% annual raises and 10% promotion raises, but in the meantime I’m socking a LOT more into my 401k, paying down student loans & a mortgage, and still have enough left over to do all the fun things I couldn’t do at $95,000.

        I’ll have earned way more than them in the years it takes them to catch up to me, both in salary and in interest earned on investments I make with that additional salary.

        I just did some back-of-the-napkin math and — assuming 4% annual raises and a 10% promotion raise in Year 3 — it’ll take my old coworkers six years to catch up to where I am right now.

        But, of course, after six years I, too, will have received annual raises and probably a promotion raise, and therefore will be even further ahead than the people who choose to keep working at my old company.

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          Right but I’m always what happens when someone hits market rate. Let’s say 100K is the avg mid-career salary for a Business Analyst in your area. What then? No other employer in your state is offering > 100K.

          1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

            This is why a lot of people move into management, even if they aren’t good at it or interested in it; they’ve maxed out the salary ladder for their field in their area.

          2. Mad Harry Crewe*

            Then… you’ve hit that ceiling faster than you otherwise would have? That’s a good thing, that’s a lot more money over the same time period. Sure, there’s nowhere further up to go, but if my options are to make $100k for 10 years ($1M) or to start at $50k and work up to $100k at the end of 10 years ($0.75M), that’s a quarter of a million dollars difference. Hitting the ceiling faster may be *frustrating,* which is an emotional problem, but it sure isn’t a financial problem.

            Additionally, salary for existing employees often *doesn’t* keep up with the market. Allison just had did a post about negotiating wage at a new job, because that’s the opportunity for you to get the biggest change in pay.

      3. Tio*

        I’ve seen both. It’s largely about companies, and I think you’re reverse confirmation biasing the way you think other people are.

        I’ve seen this so much, in pretty much every single job I’ve had. The first job I left over pay, I know they had to have hired the person who replaced me in at more than I was making, because I knew who went there, and she had more experience and management experience I didn’t have. The second job I left partially over pay, they told me they had a guy who they finally gave a title to after he “proved” he could do the higher level job… by doing it at a lower salary and title for two years. They said this in a “You just have to earn it!” kind of way, and I told them to their face it sounded more like they didn’t want to pay people for the job they were doing until they had to. It took them a year to replace me.

        The job I am in now deliberately pays a bit over market level and does market salary adjustments every year. We almost never have people leaving for pay reasons. But the “We won’t give you a raise until you leave” bit is actually fairly common.

      4. Rainy*

        I think this is one of those things that if you work at places that give raises, consider cost of living for the area, and compensate appropriately, you just haven’t faced these difficulties and you’re never going to understand what it’s like to work somewhere that is actively trying to screw its employees.

        My organization is so bad about this that the state came in and forced a pay leveling audit because we weren’t complying with equal pay legislation. I got two raises in 8 months totally $8k.

    7. Ostrich Herder*

      I think this is super common and I also completely understand why you’re feeling emotional about it – especially working in the nonprofit world where what you do often means a lot to you personally, and that Making A Difference feeling is a big part of why most nonprofiteers do what they do.

      It feels personal, feels like they just don’t value YOU enough to invest. But more likely, it’s inertia in some form of another. Maybe it’s them knowing that you deserved a raise and they could afford it, but there were other staff members in the same boat, and the budget couldn’t support ALL the well-deserved raises, so instead no one got one. Maybe it’s that the board has to approve raises, and the board is eyeing other financial priorities, and no one had internal capital to spend with them going to bat for you. There are a lot of possible reasons and no internet strangers are going to be able to nail them on the head.

      But it’s so, so much more likely that the answer is “the organization wasn’t ready for change” than that you, specifically, weren’t worth it. When an organization is hiring, they’re actively inviting change, so you’re well-poised to get a raise or extra benefits from them. To get anything new from Old Nonprofit, you’d have needed to find a way to get those rusty wheels turning all by yourself, from within. That’s hard! Sometimes the only way to force change is to BE change, by leaving. That’s why so many people leave jobs to keep moving up. It’s okay for you to be one of them.

      Again, I don’t think you’re unreasonable or unusual for being upset about this, it makes sense! But when you run the situation over and over in your mind, rehearsing what you might have said or done and imagining the difference it would have made, or you think about what your boss should have said or done for you to make your case, you’re looking for a place to put the blame. You want to find the point of failure so you can avoid being in this situation again. But it has the side effect of making things feel personal and awful. Reminding yourself that the answer is probably “they weren’t ready for change” rather than “I wasn’t worth it” or “Boss didn’t see my value” might help soothe the hurt of it.

      And best of luck in your new position! It sounds great!

      1. Jen*

        “When an organization is hiring, they’re actively inviting change, so you’re well-poised to get a raise or extra benefits from them.”

        This is a really good point.

    8. BellaStella*

      I feel this. I just got a raise this year after almost 5 years of not even COLA, also work for a non profit. It is bad management, lack of sustainable funding and proper fundraising, and lack of planning. It is lack of respect for workers who do a lot and go above and beyond for the mission. It is paying managers like the COO or CFO a salary that is 3-4x what a programme officer (who does all the ground and field work and a lot of fundraising) makes. It is again, poor management, lack of foresight and direction. And ignoring it by saying , “there are 100 others who want your job so leave if you are unhappy”…. it is tough. I am glad you got out, got a 30% raise, and love your new place. Maybe take some time to reflect but also, look ahead at the cool new things you can do and will do at your new workplace. Best of luck!

    10. goddessoftransitory*

      Ripple effect? If they give you the raise/promotion, “everybody else will want one too!” Whereas hiring a new person for a low salary sends the message “we’ll replace you without a second thought so keep your trap shut.”

      That’s a cynical take, I realize, but…

    11. Qwerty*

      A lot of it has to do with inertia, short memories, and exposure. Salaries in tech have been on a roller coaster for the past few years, so I’ve been at a few companies grappling with this.

      Exposure – If you don’t see what other companies are paying, then you don’t realize your own salaries are out of touch. Especially because titles aren’t really standard so its easy to think that another company is paying more because their role has more responsibilities or has a terrible work/life balance

      Inertia – A cynical way to look at a raise is paying more for something you already have. I’m not saying it is right. It is not even a conscious thought! But the mental comparison is usually pay X or pay Y, without “Disheartened will leave” being on the table as an option. Compared to hiring someone new, when you are negotiating the budget for the role in one go and then it is over with.

      Short memories – Roles grow with a person and it just becomes thought of as part of your role. They think you are doing your role of tasks A-E and being great at it, not doing your original job of A-C plus D&E.

      What a couple of my companies have done to combat this is eliminate merit vs COL raises and switch to an annual evaluation of the role with a market rate adjustment. You figure out what you would pay each person if you hired them today, then look at their current salary. Plus do a review if people in similar roles are making similar amounts, since a shift in the market will mean newer employees have higher salaries, which gets the existing employees caught up within a year.

    12. Joielle*

      I 100% feel you on this and went through something similar very recently. I was passed over for a (truly) well-deserved promotion in favor of an outside candidate, with no real reason or explanation from leadership. I was really emotional about it for a while because it was the place where I thought I would build my career and someday retire from, with a mission I really believed in. I had taken on a lot of extra work and responsibility and knocked it out of the park, and trusted that leadership had my back in return. When they went with an outside candidate it felt like it all came crashing down and I could no longer trust these people I had worked with for years – and there wasn’t any other path for me to advance, so I had to leave. Like you, I quickly got another job with a pay increase, much better title, and more interesting work. So I’m definitely better off, but it still bugs me.

      I think one reason I’m not over it is that I wanted an explanation and I’ll never get one. Or some kind of acknowledgement that my boss made the wrong decision and regretted losing me. Or even just an acknowledgement that his decision was what made me leave. It’ll never come, though. I guess living well is the best revenge :)

      1. I hate IFFS*

        I share your pain. While my situation was more like, “Why did you hire this terrible boss, tell me it was going to be ok, it never got ok’ so I left. I, too, love the role and mission. It was the first place I had stayed more than 2.5 years and I told everyone about that accomplishment (my husband and I were military and moved a lot).

        I, too, could no longer trust these people I had worked with for years based on the terrible hire, and lack of support to get through it. They clearly ‘sided’ with the manager and I was left out. Even though I carried the department through a major transition for almost a year, I couldn’t cash in the social credit I banked.

        “I think one reason I’m not over it is that I wanted an explanation and I’ll never get one.” I feel this, too. I’ll never know why they devalued me so much that they didn’t want to help me. Then they asked me back to help them, which I interpreted as positive, but then I was kicked again. I was ‘fired’ again when my contract wasn’t renewed (they say because of price increase) and here I am.

        I wrote the CEO and CHR a bland (because I am looking for a job) email to share why I’m upset (not that they’re likely to care), and noted things they’re not likely to know such as the Director (who has since resigned after 6-mos) didn’t let me train anyone before I left; didn’t talk to me for the last two weeks of my time there; took away my potential of having 40-hours of PTO paid out; and embarrassed me by writing an org-wide departure email (what all managers do when a report leaves) inferring I was fired.

        I’m sorry you feel this way. I, do, too.

    14. NonprofitsAreWeird*

      At my non-profit all salaries, bonuses, raises, etc. need to go through the BoD. All of them. We tend to get infrequent but larger raises for that reason.

      Most of the for profit companies I’ve worked for try to give raises every year, but they’re often only 1-2%. Those companies where the bonus is a significant part of the compensation will vary wildly around whether and how much (these bonuses always have a company modifier so if the company didn’t meet certain profit thresholds the bonuses are either small or non-existent).

      Going back to the non-profit, though, if there’s one person on the board who doesn’t want to invest in higher salaries that can be enough to scuttle them.

      Also, most non-profits I’m familiar with are somewhat like academia- low salaries but really good benefits. So they try to make the argument that you’re getting more time off than peers at other companies or similar to justify keeping the salaries lower.

    15. Wordybird*

      My experience with non-profits has been that the decision-makers are either unwilling to hold people accountable and/or rely on volunteers to accomplish things that an employee would better suited to accomplish. I volunteer with a non-profit where the ED petitioned for a raise last year… right before his wife’s real estate career took off and now while he hasn’t done any fundraising in over a year, he has been all over the country for various vacations both on- and off-season. The board seems unbothered by the lack of funds coming in and his lack of effort in general. My previous role at a non-profit was a lot of thumb-twiddling as my boss insisted that we needed to use our members/donors to accomplish certain tasks because they were skilled in such-and-such area or they knew so-and-so but then it took 10x as long for that same volunteer to work on what I could have done.

      My current employer, which is for-profit, seems to have decided that a good way for them to make a profit is to have a small number of higher-ups who make a lot of money, hire as many brand-new college graduates as possible so they can pay them less to balance that out, and everyone in the middle gets the smallest COL raise possible on a yearly basis. If those middles leave, then they can hire more new grads to take their place.

  29. HRGoatLady*

    My wife is transgender, and we live in an area of the country that is very hostile to transgender people. We have been trying to leave for a while – we’re financially stable enough to get our own housing even in this market, but getting a job in a “safe” state (i.e. has laws protecting gender-affirming care) has proven to be an issue. We don’t know anyone in these states. We haven’t been to most of these states.

    I’m the limiting factor here – my wife can get a job pretty much anywhere because of her skillset but she will take a major pay cut and so I have to make it up in my job. I have been applying and interviewing for months and have gotten to final round 5x with no luck. I make it very clear that I can relocate at my own cost and start onsite 1 month from accepting the offer, which is a reasonable timeframe, isn’t it?

    There’s an election coming and one party has made it very clear that they intend to remove protections for transgender people, and LGBTQIA+ people as a whole. If they win, we will have to uproot everything and leave for a safe state. This is not optional. Her safety comes over everything else.

    But this job market is awful, and I don’t know how long it would take us to get jobs again. What would we tell our current companies about leaving? What do we say when interviewers ask why we left our jobs and moved 1000+ miles away?

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Come to New Mexico. It’s cheap here, outside of Santa Fe. Yes, you will take a pay cut, because this is an overall low-paying state, but the COL here is very low, so it evens out. Beautiful, beautiful state with endless nature to explore, good food, a short flight from DEN and DFW to get you where you need to go. Heavily blue state, at both state and federal level.

      You don’t need to tell your current companies anything, other than you’re relocated for a change of pace. You don’t need to tell interviewers anything, other than you were ready for a change, and heard good things about [NEW STATE].

      1. HRGoatLady*

        New Mexico is a beautiful state – it’s one of the ones we’ve actually been to. Thank you for the recommendation!

        1. NewMexicoMemories*

          NM was not that cheap when I lived there, in part because they imported a lot of the food and water cost a fortune. The salaries were so low it was laughable which did not help. This was many years ago, though, so perhaps things have changed. Also, it wasn’t actually that friendly to many non-Hispanic minorities and I worry that there could be issues around being trans.

          But again, my information is not recent so all of this could be very different now.

      2. Prudence and Wakeen Snooter Theatre for the Performing Oats*

        I also live in NM- not knowing your income bracket, rents are not great for those of us in lower income brackets, and while our current governor has been working to strengthen protections, the governor’s office has flipped from blue to red roughly every 8 years. I hope NM stays a safe harbor, but I wouldn’t count on it. And water is rapidly going to be a critical issue. I love NM- and don’t want to dissuade any one- but I also don’t want you to have an overly rosy view.

    3. CL*

      Feeling for you and your wife. We are also looking to move to a “safe” space for different reasons (special education and disability protections).
      You can tell people some innocuous version of “I’ve always wanted to live in X state” or “I have family nearby”. A family member moved 2000+ miles away under the story of having family closer (closer still meant 400 miles away.) That works for both current and potential employers.

      Good luck.

    4. ThatGirl*

      Is she looking for a new job that maybe isn’t a major paycut? Or is at least in line with local COL? Feels like you should both be looking and maybe she can find something that pays better than you think.

      That said, you don’t have to give any specific reasons – “better quality of life” or “needed a change of pace” or “family reasons” are all fine…

      1. HRGoatLady*

        She has an incredibly unique job – as in only 4 people in a company of 10,000+ do what she does – and she has been there over a decade. Even if she could find the exact same job elsewhere, she would lose $20k just from seniority raises alone.

        But that’s definitely something to investigate – see if something might be less than that expected $20k pay cut.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I hear you, but I do feel like it’s worth looking – and she might be able to find something that uses overlapping unique skills and pays better as well. At a minimum, if she can find something that you can “make work” for a few months while you move, it will make it easier for you to find a new job once you’re there.

          Good luck!

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Difficulties with weather & environment can be worth a reference.
        I’m ready to get out of tornado alley.
        We’ve had one too many hurricanes make landfall right near us, and its timr to move inland.
        I’ve developed a severe allergy to XYZ, and those don’t grow in Maine.

    5. Leave Hummus Alone*

      I’m so sorry, HRGoatLady. I’ve experienced feeling unsafe in society because of who I am and it’s unnerving. Is there any way you can talk to your current company and see if you can relocate and work remotely? Even if it’s for a limited time, to give yourself time to move and have an address in a safe state. Are there professional groups you can reach out to for advice on job hunting in that state? Good luck and I’m rooting for you and your family!

      1. HRGoatLady*

        Unfortunately, remote work isn’t an option for either of us in our current jobs.

        Does anyone have any recommendations for professional groups in safe states?

        1. Nesprin*

          It’s easier to find the lgbtia subgroup of a professional association than vice versa.

        2. Tio*

          I’m assuming you’re in HR, but I don’t know much about that. What about your wife? Can you give us a general idea?

          1. HRGoatLady*

            She is in manufacturing, doing very specific repairs – let’s say that a teapot manufacturer uses robots to make teapots and the robots occasionally mess up a teapot. She is the one to fix the teapot so that it meets all of the Premium Teapot Manufacturer’s extremely high quality standards and can move forward to the rest of the teapot assembly.

            1. Tio*

              With that context, the franklin park/ schiller park area of IL I mentioned below would might be a decent option. Still blue areas, with a bit of manufacturing dotted around. There is also manufacturing in the more rural areas she could commute to if she finds the right company.

    6. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      As someone who lives in the bluest of blue states, I don’t think anyone here would bother to ask why you moved 1000 miles away. If I had a resume come across my desk with all the history being in a very red state I would just think “Yeah, I would run too”.

      It might be worth your wife taking the best job she can get, make the move and hope for the best. In the meantime, cut your lifestyle to the bare bones and save money like her life depends on it. Do whatever you can to live on her salary. Regardless of how November turns out it is going to continue to get worse for LGBTQ+ and especially trans in many states.

      Hugs to you and best of luck.

      1. HRGoatLady*

        Ironically, it seems as if I’m viewed with suspicion coming from a red state. I’ve been told, “We’re concerned you won’t fit in here.” It’s like, if you listened to me for about 10 min you would definitely know that’s not the case!

        1. M2*

          I have a close friend who is also moving for similar reasons but from overseas and no one wants to pay to move her here. So she and her partner decided to just move. She’s saving every penny and cutting costs so when she comes it won’t be an issue.

          Maybe have your partner get a role and you move without one and apply once you move? Cut and save money now so you are used to a less budget.

          If you’re in HR look at universities in blue states and diversify your applications. Say you’re a Director or head if HR apply to those but also maybe Manager roles. I had to do that once and it was a bummer but I was promoted rather quickly and then left and was promoted again. If you’re the only HR person and you move to a larger company with many then your title might be less senior anyway just based on the different levels.

          If they also ask you why you want to move say you moved for your partners job or say you had to stay in X state because if your partners job. People understand that! Good luck to you!

        2. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

          Yeah, overall if you can at all swing moving first and finding a job later, it might be easier to find a job. Even if you say you can relocate yourself, so many screens just toss out out-of-state applications

        3. different seudonym*

          I hear what you’re saying. I agree with others, that you don’t need to say anything other than “family reasons.” I also think it’s unlikely anyone will get your overall situation unless they’re queer themselves–and only sometimes then. My experience in a really purple state is that people who are not plugged in to pro- fascist media literally have no idea what’s happening to trans rights elsewhere. It isn’t covered in mainstream media. The average person where I live, a very blue major metropolitan area, thinks being visibly trans is sorta weeby/cringe, and otherwise pays no attention at all.

          I think in your position I would just target a specific place and go. I think your evaluation of the climate is accurate.

    7. aubrey*

      You could try shortening the time frame for when you can start – live in an airbnb for a couple weeks before your wife completes the move to join you. I have been the one who had to handle most of the moving because my partner moved ahead of me and it was terrible but we got through it!

      Are there some safe states where your wife’s pay cut will not be so bad given the cost of living? It could make sense to focus more on those in case you also need to make some financial compromises to get a job, or take a job that you might not want to stay at long term.

      I think as long as you focus on what you’re excited about with the new job and the new state, general “[city] is a great fit for our family” kind of stuff is fine. It also helps to have visited the city and know you want to live there – and more importantly be able to specifically speak to that at the city level not just “any safe state”. The company will be concerned that you actually won’t like it there, especially if you’re coming from somewhere really different or it’s somewhere that people tend to view overly romantically, so be enthusiastic but seem like you have a realistic sense of the city.

      Good luck, it’s a scary time to to be in this position.

      1. HRGoatLady*

        I would need to give 2 weeks notice at my current job because I’m an HR department of one. I realistically don’t think I could close out everything at my job, pack, and handle all the administrative parts of getting housing and be onsite 1000+ miles away in 2 weeks. I have told companies that I could do it in 3 weeks if they can provide assistance in finding temp housing while I work out my notice.

        The plan is to stay in temp housing while my wife packs up the house and I find permanent housing, and have her join me after I start. The issue is just what it takes to get to the location in the first place.

        1. Filosofickle*

          When I moved to San Francisco I did it in 3 weeks, solo — 2 weeks notice (packing every day after work), then a few more days to finish up, and 3 days to drive 2000 miles. It was total chaos and a 4th week is worth trying for, but 3 was doable and that’s what my new employer required. I secured a 3-month sublet during my notice period (I’d already been researching the city, so I knew roughly where to look), but today with services like Airbnb you can reserve for a week or a month in a few minutes online, starting tomorrow. There’s not that much admin if you start with a temporary rental like that.

          1. PotatoRock*

            I did a very short notice cross country move & lived at an Extended Stay for a month – it was nice not to be worrying about picking a permanent place in the very first days of a new job

        2. AnonForThisOne*

          If you are moving for your wife’s job (or even if that’s what you can say) you should qualify for unemployment benefits as the “trailing” spouse.

          I know the benefit amounts are laughable (here in CA they max at 450 per week) it’s still something coming in to help bridge the gap.

    8. Tradd*

      You might consider Illinois. I have a transgender friend who lives there. There are state level laws prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity. It’s considered very progressive for LGBT+ issues.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Illinois should definitely be on the list, I assume HRGoatLady and her wife thought of that already :) Michigan too, I don’t know about state-level laws there but I know that it’s a bit lower COL and my trans friend and his queer wife moved there last year and they love it.

        2. HRGoatLady*

          Michigan is making huge steps – looks like the trans panic defense will be banned there soon – but it’s actually not one of the sanctuary states.

      3. HRGoatLady*

        Thank you! I’ve spent a fair amount of time around Chicago and I love the area – just not the City itself. I still wax poetic about Portillo’s and their hot Italian beef sandwiches with spicy peppers, mmmmmm…

        1. ThatGirl*

          Fair point on Michigan. And as a suburbanite near Chicago, I do definitely recommend this area. The COL is pretty median for the country and our job market seems strong.

        2. Tio*

          Look into Naperville, it’s a little higher col than some of the state area but very blue. I live in IL and went to school in Naperville. Most of the Chicagoland area is pretty blue within an hour of the city; I live about 1.5h away and we have a fairly blue area, although we do get a few Trump signs in some of the more rural areas. Franklin Park, Schiller park, Elk grove are all business park areas near the airport that are pretty blue too.

          1. ThatGirl*

            DuPage and Cook Co esp are gonna be good bets. Naperville is fine, I love Downers Grove personally. Oak Park is probably the gayest suburb though housing can be pricy there.

    9. Rex Libris*

      I hope everything works out. As far as what to tell the employer, Assuming you’ll take a trip to check the place out before committing, you can say “We’ve visited Metropolis before, and just fell in love with it” or something similar.

    10. Reebee*

      I would think more and more companies are open to “Needed and wanted to be in a more diverse city/town that is accepting and tolerant,”etc. I mean, it’s as valid a reason as any for relocating, and, with younger generations on the hiring end, I’d think they’d be quite receptive and understanding.

      Much luck to you and your wife!!

      1. HRGoatLady*

        I freely admit to exploiting this when I’m talking to an interviewer. “Why yes I know about DEI, I am A Diverse and so is my wife.” (+2 internet points if you get the reference)

    11. Joielle*

      Come to Minnesota! A lot of people are doing the same thing as your family – I’ve seen multiple news articles about folks moving to MN for better LGBTQ+ protections so it wouldn’t be a surprise to an interviewer. Also we’re a pretty good location for climate change reasons. There are definitely conservative companies out there but we have a lot of big companies with serious DEI efforts, and state government jobs are also a good bet for understanding/supportive interviewers.

    12. CostOfLiving*

      Most hard blue areas are also very high COL areas so you may not get that pay cut but your money will likely not go nearly as far as you think it will.

      I have a 6 figure salary and spend more than half of it on rent – just rent, not including utilities or any other expenses. I live in the suburbs because I can’t afford to live in the city where my salary would not cover my rent.

      Your mileage may vary, but something to include in your considerations.

      Good luck!

    13. AnonForThisOne*

      First, I’m so sorry you and your wife are dealing with this. Her gender identity shouldn’t matter to anyone and certainly shouldn’t make her less safe. Sadly it does and I’m just so mad in your behalf.

      I’m in CA. Because our job market is competitive, local candidates do get priority so you might have better luck with moving and then finding something.

      As for what you say, honestly what you said in this would be a reason I wouldn’t question, and I’ve done hiring in more than one company. Probably less detail and just say it’s about needing to be somewhere that you feel safe. I know plenty of people, myself included, who refuse to even consider leaving the state because we just don’t know what will happen to our rights in other places.

  30. Working bee*

    I was wondering if anyone here has ever used an executive or leadership coach? I have been applying to new jobs but there are a few things (non-technical) that are holding me back based on feedback from my employer and after the interviews so I thought maybe working with a coach would be helpful. If you have, how did you find them? What did you do with them and how did they help?

    1. OrdinaryJoe*

      I did when I was transitioning from one job to another to assist in evaluating my resume and helping to fill in skill gaps and if I wanted to pivot to other areas. I found them through my company’s HR department. They had a list of people they had referred people to for executive training or polishing. You could also see if there’s listings for your profession’s association … there’s an association for everyone!

    2. Redux*

      There was a long thread about this recently, I think last weekend’s work open thread but I’m not positive. Check it out!

  31. Ostrich Herder*

    I work with clients on long-term projects, and there’s one client that I really like, on a personal level, but for years they’ve been habitually late to meetings, aren’t prepared, miss emails, blow deadlines, etc. Making progress on their projects has always been extremely difficult because they don’t retain information from one meeting to the next and don’t take thorough notes, so I was always sending pre-meeting recaps and post-meeting summaries, which I highly suspected they weren’t reading. They used to, at least, be apologetic about the disorganization, but recently, the client shared with me that they’ve been diagnosed with ADHD, which was not a shock at all. Now they’re constantly talking about their ADHD. They’ve fully given up on the idea of taking their own notes, because the ADHD makes it “impossible.” They’ve also admitted they never read my pre- or post-meeting emails, and “can’t” because of the ADHD. Late? ADHD. Missed an email? I should have known they would miss it, since they have ADHD, and sent it twice. Blew a meeting? They were hyperfocused on something else, did I know that’s a common thing that happens with ADHD?

    I do know that, because I myself am a person with ADHD. In many ways I get what they’re going through, and I can only imagine how tough it must have been for this client (late 50s) to go their whole life without a diagnosis, or tools, or coping skills, or an explanation of why their brain doesn’t just WORK the way everyone else’s does. This is not a “wow people with ADHD are annoying” post. But it is a “how do I deal with a person in the ‘oh my god I just got a diagnosis that explains everything’ phase?” post.

    I’ve talked to my manager, but this client is a friend of theirs, pays for the time they waste, and is perfectly happy with the glacially-slow pace of the project, so their time-wasting actually turns a major profit for us. Official word from on high is “the client is fine with how things are going, so just nod and smile.” But ooooh that’s hard! Any words of advice or wisdom?

    1. ferrina*

      My advice is going to be different between a client and a coworker.

      For a client, part of what they are paying for is the hand-holding. Think of it as they are paying you to be competent for them. As you manage the project, make sure that you are gently guiding them to what the right answer should be (“based on what you were saying last week about X, do we want to do Y?”). Plan to give them fuller updates than what you would.

      Of course, this all needs to stay within the scope of the work. If you find that this client is taking more time than what was budgeted in the scope, you need to talk to your boss about scope creep. But if this client is still compensating your company appropriately for their time, this may just be part of this particular project.
      *As a side note, I’m also someone with ADHD. I feel for this client, but at the same time, I can’t imagine how they got through their career with this behavior! You have to figure out someway to manage the symptoms (and I’ve managed plenty of symptoms before I realized that they were actually symptoms)

    2. Justin*

      I’ve been that just diagnosed adult and now I’m in the “and now I see others going through this.”

      I just have to be very very very very clear about the baseline things I need from people and tell them “your process is up to you as long as you do the thing.” It tends to help fellow ADHDers relax, I feel.

      1. Ostrich Herder*

        This might be a key, honestly – they’re always asking for long, detailed recaps and explanations, so they have “all the info” but never actually read them. I may experiment with a “I’ll send the long version later today, but in the meantime, here are the three things I can’t live without!” that they may actually read.

    3. Flor*

      Why do you care if no one else does? I mean that sincerely – if the client is fine with the pace of the project, and your boss is fine with it, then why is it that it bothers you so much? Is it that you feel stood up and unappreciated by the client doing this? Is it that you find it frustrating because it throws off your plan for the day, or because you’re doing wasted work? Is it a point of professional pride to do good work, and you don’t feel like you’re providing that?

      There’s not a right or wrong answer here, but maybe thinking about why it’s bothering you so much can help you with coping with it, because it sounds like coping is the best option rather than trying to fix the problem if neither your boss nor client sees a problem to fix. For instance, if it’s frustrating because you’re doing wasted work, maybe you can reframe it as, “Well I still get paid, so it’s not totally wasted”, or remind yourself that this person is going through the, “Things finally make sense!” phase and that it should (hopefully) settle down as they move into the “finding ways to manage it” phase.

      1. Ostrich Herder*

        This is a fair question! Part of the issue is that we’re understaffed and I’m salaried. So while the company makes its money on work for this client, it throws off my days and if I have to stay late, there’s no extra compensation.

        The bulk of the issue, honestly, is just that the meetings are incredibly exhausting. I met with them today and it was the usual rigmarole of them being late, having forgotten the purpose of the meeting, etc. They asked me to get them back up to speed, immediately interrupted to tell an unrelated story, explicitly saying they had to tell the story because of their ADHD. I genuinely laughed at the story, and used it to segue back into the meeting. They stopped the meeting again to say that me returning to talking about business actually made them feel really bad, because part of ADHD is rejection sensitivity and they felt that I hadn’t liked their story. They made it clear that I hadn’t been rude or unprofessional, just that they were worried I didn’t like it. I reminded them that I’d laughed, and they suggested that, “as an accommodation for [their] ADHD” I should tell them a specific thing that I liked about stories they tell, so they know I’m really listening and not just politely laughing at the end. It’s like this every time – it’s not just extra business attention, they expect a level of emotional caretaking that’s, frankly, exhausting. I wind up feeling drained after meeting with them and it’s affecting my other work.

        1. Flor*

          Oh goodness, that sounds EXHAUSTING. Is there any chance you can pull back on meetings? They don’t sound like they’re being super productive from a business perspective, so if, say, you have a standing weekly meeting for the project can you see if you can do it once a fortnight instead?

          I’d also address the specific understaffed element (and subsequently having to stay late) with your boss, if you haven’t; that’s their responsibility to address, even if the client’s time-wasting is profitable for the business.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            Exactly. If the client wants to shell out for time wasted, goody goody gumdrops. But it’s the OP’s actual time that’s being used, and that needs to be addressed specifically.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          Oh my GOD. That’s crossing the line into therapy, frankly. You aren’t paid for that. Just reading that exhausted me. She isn’t three, you aren’t her nanny.

          And hooray for your boss/company making money off of her, but it’s on your back and your time, and you aren’t seeing any of it.

          I don’t really know what to say from an advice standpoint, just that you are well within “the eff?” territory as far as I’m concerned.

        3. The teapots are on fire*

          I’d push back with your boss on the fact that the extra load from this client is forcing you to work late: the business is making money at your expense, so can the client be assigned to someone else or can your load be decreased to allow for the clear fact that this client takes up too much time and energy? His traits might bother you less if you weren’t overworked.

    4. Warrior Princess Xena*

      First: commiserations on the level of frustration you are dealing with!

      I have two recommendations; naturally you know your client and industry best, so adjust as needed. But maybe this will help.

      1. Currently, you are working overtime/longer hours to deal with this client and keep them from being more of a problem. Your managers are happy because you are making it not their problem. If you can, it’s time to start making it their problem. “Hey boss, Client X hasn’t responded by EOD today so they’re going to have to wait until 8 AM Monday morning for their answer.”

      2. Have a come-to-Jesus meeting with your manager regarding the “ADHD” issues. I say that in quotation marks not because I doubt anyone’s diagnosis, but because they’re pushing a burden of emotional labor onto you that is wildly inappropriate and it doesn’t really matter if it’s ADHD or any other diagnosis. In the gentlest way possible: it’s not your problem if they have rejection dysphoria. It’s not your fault that they’re disorganized. They can request that you send recaps in a different form – that’s fine! That’s a work product. But requesting that you listen and commiserate the way they want to their stories is not OK. You are being paid to complete a work project, not act as a therapist/sounding board. I don’t know what the best way to handle that is, but I would 100% tell your manager about what’s happening and ask for advice on how to stop it. Maybe that means your manager sits in on some of the meetings. Maybe that means you now have phone calls conveniently scheduled immediately after the scheduled end of your current meetings, so sorry, got to go.

      Apart from that – I would mentally add a 200% delay to all your expected timelines and be sure to document document document any delays that occur.

    5. Happily Retired*

      I’ve read the other comments and agree, but assuming that you are stuck with this client, and knowing that you aren’t going to try to do therapy, maybe ask them: “What works best for you? How do you like to get your information? Bulleted lists? Short paragraphs, one per topic? Something something. If this person has managed to be employed this long, they must have had some sort of method or strategy for organizing information. If you can find out what that is, maybe your communications won’t be so frustrating.

      But otherwise, yeah, you have my sympathy while they stand there dazed, attempting to understand and integrate this new diagnosis.

  32. Ready for the weekend*

    Hi everyone. How do you get over the actions of an ex-colleague and an ex-friend whose behavior impacted your mental health and reputation? I went on a business trip three years ago, where all safety measures were taken seriously and implemented. Ex-friend/colleague learns of it, removes me from a work group and threatens to write a report about me.

    The report doesn’t happen, and I kept checking in on this, but I was a mess for a long time. I struggled to complete my work and made a lot of mistakes that made me look unreliable. Now over three years later, but I’ve learned from others that this person also took similar business trips. Just trying to get over this.

    1. ferrina*

      If it were me, I’d spend a few hours being properly angry. I’d do something physical, then play a video game where I could let out some aggression. Then I nod to myself and move on.

      I assume this person is well out of your life now, which is where they should be. This person sounds like they leave a trail of destruction in their wake.

    2. Apex Mountain*

      The question is a little confusing to me. What was he threatening to write you up for? Since you mention safety, was there an injury or something on the trip?

      1. ThatGirl*

        yeah, I’m real confused about what happened on this trip or any of the others. People travel for business all the time. It sounds like things were poorly handled – the OP should have gone to their manager or HR or something at the time – but the place to work this out now is possibly by talking to someone who can help you work through it emotionally.

      2. Sussannah*

        I suspect that given the timing – three years ago – this was Covid- related and the colleague thought that the travel was unsafe.

      3. Ready for the weekend*

        They were mad that I was traveling amid the pandemic. I asked the organizer why it was still happening and what precautions were being put in place. I was told that there were going to be many requirements and I can confirm we had to stay masked. We did and I was extra careful with any contact I had with others.

        1. ThatGirl*

          Ah, I see.

          Even so – why on earth would someone have to write something up about it? What business is it of theirs, and why would that affect you in any way? You were presumably told to go, and stayed as safe as you could, so why is this still bothering you?

    3. Critical Sensation*

      I’d probably seek therapy if I was that badly affected by someone making ridiculous empty threats about a work-sanctioned trip, honestly. This person sounds pathetic and their threats meaningless, and I’d want to get to the bottom of why their nonsense affected me so badly.

      If that isn’t possible, then I’d suggest writing out everything you’d like to say to them, exactly as you’d want to say it. Be detailed, add pictures, mind-map it – whatever gets it out of your head and onto paper. Then destroy that paper in whatever way seems best to you – burn it, rip it to pieces, run it through the shredder, paint over it with black paint – while repeating out loud “you have no power over me”. And then never think about them again (and if they pop into your mind? “You have no power over me.”) .

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Should we assume that by “3 years ago” you mean business trips before covid restrictions were lessened?

    5. biobotb*

      I’m also confused. So your boss sent you on this trip, but your colleague threatened to write you up over a work-sanctioned trip and you felt that was a credible threat, and that you might actually get in trouble? Or you were upset because you felt betrayed by how the colleague reacted to the trip?

  33. K with Scapula Pain*

    So I mostly work from home and I work at a desk. I also experience a decent amount of neck/shoulder stiffness and aching from my right shoulder blade. Would having an adjustable desk and adjusting the height of my monitor (I work on a laptop + a monitor) help with this? Would getting a specific type of mouse also be helpful (I just use my laptop trackpad).

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Probably not, because what you have doesn’t sound like a symptom of bad ergonomics, it sounds like you have an actual injury. Start with a physical therapist who can actually find what’s going on, and then you can ask them for recommendations for adjusting your workspace.

      Seriously, PTs are absolute angels, and are SO much more effective than doctors at actually finding and diagnosing musculoskeletal issues. Don’t dismiss it, it could be something serious. Take it from me, I’ve been there!

      1. K with Scapula Pain*

        I appreciate the concern and I may have to at some point but I notice my issues go away on 3 day weekends or week long vacations, making me think the issue is very tied to my set up.

        1. kalli*

          On weekends or vacations, are you sitting for the same amount of time? No? Then it’s more likely that moving around, comfier chairs, extra lying down time etc. aren’t exacerbating it.

          For example, my back hurts after sitting all day. My back hurts after sitting all day in a car or at the computer chair, but not if I’m reclining in bed all day. This is because I have severe pain from osteoporosis and not being upright reduces the strain on my spine, not because my ergonomic gaming chair isn’t ergonomic enough and my second monitor is a bit higher than ergonomically ideal because otherwise there wouldn’t be desk room for my ergonomic mechanical keyboard.

      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        I disagree. By not have an ergonomic set up you can actually injure yourself and cause strain. Yes I think the OP should go see someone who can help (PT or chiropractor) but if they do not make a change to their set up it’s not going to get better.

      3. DrSalty*

        I disagree about the ergonomics, but I agree 100% about the utility of PT. I had neck/shoulder pain and dizziness directly caused by bad posture and a bad desk set up, and PT fixed it for me. So yes OP, rearrange your desk!

    2. Ellie*

      I had the same issue and I found that using a real mouse but keeping it centered and close to my body instead of close to the computer helped.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Here’s something I noticed about myself that I was able to train myself out of.

      Do you do a lot of just reading on the screen – no typing, no clicking, just scrolling every minute or two? Try to get in the habit of dropping your hand into your lap or otherwise relaxing your hand, write, and forearm – instead of having it tensed up over the mouse/trackpad all the time. Made a huge difference for me.

    4. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Get a wireless mouse. They are super cheap and will help your wrists and probably your neck much better. You might want to get a combo mouse and keyboard. One that you can have the keyboard at a proper and comfortable angle. You may not be realizing it but you may be hunching over your laptop because you don’t have a proper mouse and keyboard.
      If you can afford it (or the company can pay for it) get yourself a standing desk. I don’t work remote but I just got one recently at work and it helps a lot to be able to change positions.

    5. WellRed*

      In addition to rethinking your set up and possible PT, make sure you are stepping away from the desk regularly to stretch or “shake it out.” Humans weren’t designed to sit over a keyboard all day.

    6. aubrey*

      I had issues with this that turned into a nerve injury/pinching problem from that still bugs me sometimes after years. Definitely get something more ergonomic before it gets worse, take it from me! You could try a round or vertical mouse, something that gets your hand into less of a twisted position. I like one called microsoft sculpt ergonomic mouse, but there’s a bunch of options.

    7. NottheBoomer*

      I raised my laptop with a stand and use a keyboard- that seems to help a bit- and taking breaks!

    8. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I had a major reduction in shoulder and neck pain when I switched to a trackball – WAY less arm movements. I put it off for a long time because I didn’t want to have to retrain myself to move the ball with my fingers and click with my thumbs, but most of the Logitech ones have the buttons positioned the same way as on a regular mouse and you move the ball with your thumb, which takes about 15 minutes to get used to as long as you’re not like, trying to do minute detailed photoshop work with it.

      1. Girasol*

        Yes, this! Company doc told me the reason my right arm ached was my mouse and he prescribed a trackball. I didn’t think that could possibly solve so much pain, but wow, it did. You mentioned right shoulder. Unless you’re a leftie, suspect the mouse and try a trackball.

    9. Higher Ed Admin*

      It might! Also spend a few days being very, very conscious of how you’re sitting, all the time. I have a lot of the same stuff you mentioned but on my left side; when I started paying attention to it, I was sitting in a position that had me putting a lot of weight-pressure on my left arm on the armrest of my chair. I swapped out my chair for one without armrests and not being able to lean on it subconsciously has helped a lot. Of course this might not be the same thing for you, but paying really close attention to how you’re sitting/arranging yourself for a few days can help narrow down exactly what about your setup is causing the problem, and therefore how to fix it.

    10. lemon*

      I have the same exact issues. My right shoulder pain was due to using the laptop trackpad – it’s not ergonomic to have to reach to that center position to mouse, rather than reaching more directly in front of you the way you would with an external trackpad or mouse (assuming you’re right handed).

      What worked for me was to use two external mouses. I taught myself to use a mouse left-handed, so I use an ergonomic mouse on the left. I also have an external trackpad that I use on the right. I use a Mac, which uses a lot of gesture-based shortcuts, so I end up using the trackpad for all those gesture shortcuts, and then use the mouse for everything else. It’s helped so much with my pain.

      I also did some physical therapy and learned some easy exercises and stretches that I do periodically throughout the day to help with neck and shoulder stiffness, so that might be another option to look into.

    11. Csethiro Ceredin*

      I have no way to know if the same is true for you, but I had this exact issue – a very precise pain in the right shoulderblade and some neck and shoulder stiffness – and getting a mousepad with a raised gel wrist pad stopped it overnight.

    12. Everything Bagel*

      I’d be looking at my entire current desk setup first. I had severe neck, shoulder, and wrist pain many years ago, and it all was due to my desk set up. Someone at my office came and evaluated my ergonomic setup, which was not ergonomic at all! After that I was volun-told that I would become an ergonomic evaluator and did that for a couple of years. As soon as I hear anyone talking about pain from working at their desk, my mind immediately jumps to all of the things that go into ergonomics. I hope you’ll consider these and do a little research online to evaluate your own setup.

      Your monitor should be within arms reach with the top of it at or below eye level. Your keyboard and mouse should be at a level where your arms can hang freely to use them and directly in front of you without your wrists resting on anything. A pull out keyboard tray is great for this. I had to give up my keyboard with a number pad because I found I was reaching too far to the side to use my mouse, and that was causing me shoulder pain. Also consider if your chair is the right height for your thighs to be parallel to the floor and your feet touching the floor or on a footrest, and if you are using the chair back as support or if you are instead leaning forward a lot.

      Sorry for all the detail, I hope you find this helpful!

    13. Zephy*

      +1 to the suggestion to talk to a physical therapist or other medical professional, but a workstation that is adjustable and ergonomically sound is probably also worth looking into. Hell, your PT can probably even make recommendations, and if a medical professional says you need it, good chance the company will even pay for it.

    14. Astor*

      Just adding that if you get an adjustable desk to make sure it goes lower than a regular desk. The cheaper / more affordable ones often don’t, because of historical design and them being aimed to help with standing. But generally people under 5’8ish need their desks lower.

      Adding a keyboard tray is also an possible, but harder on an adjustable desk because the supports and mechanisms limit your options and can make it very complicated. It normally takes my workplace 0-2 days to install a keyboard tray on a standard desk. Mine took 6 months and multiple consultations for an adjustable desk.

    15. shrambo*

      As someone who’s been there… Yes, more ergonomic equipment will probably help, but you will should also probably see a physical therapist, do their exercises regularly, stretch every 15 minutes while you’re working, and try to minimize the time you spend in front of a computer.

    16. Haven’t picked a username yet*

      I got a standing desk 3 years ago and it was game changing. I stand all day and do not have the same issues with my shoulder as I used to. If I sit for an hour – pain.

      Your mileage may vary but it works for me.

  34. Anonymous Educator*

    I’ve been at my current job mostly remote (got it shortly before the pandemic started). Through that time, our team has had a few intern with us. Even though I’m a huge fan of remote work, I don’t think it’s great for internships, and I feel those interns got short-changed.

    Now that we’ve switched to a more hybrid situation, I have the opportunity to mentor an intern for real in person.

    For people who’ve been interns, what did your mentor or supervisor do to make your internship experience a great one?

    For people who’ve worked with interns, what have you learned over the years to be a better mentor or supervisor to interns?

    1. K with Scapula Pain*

      I was an intern and helped with interns, and I would say making sure you’re very approachable for any questions asked, and making sure to give the intern a good amount of resources (helpful website links, etc). from the get-go.

    2. Morgan Proctor*

      Actually giving your intern real work to do. The best internship I’ve ever had, I was given a huge amount of autonomy on a big, important project.

      Also, being cognizant of the fact that your interns might not have very much money. Don’t invite them out to dinner or drinks and not pay for them, etc.

      1. MsM*

        If you can give the intern some ability to have that project reflect their interests, even better. We have a few big, long-term things we always need help with, and we can usually carve something out of those that will give them particular practice with the skills they want to develop.

        1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

          I second this! And make sure that what they are working on aligns to what they are in school for or what jobs they are looking for. If you can, give them something concreate that they can show so employers know that they worked and learned something and wasn’t just filing paperwork and getting coffee.

          Also, if you can, have the intern do meet and greets with other people in the company. Have them learn everything they can about an office and what different people do. Not just the managers, but the executive assistants and receptionists. Sometimes its the people that are often looked over that have the most knowledge.

      2. But maybe not*

        +1 to this, especially real work! My internship experience was such that the work I did was very impactful and well within my skillset, which gave me a ton of confidence. I see that with my interns as well. Have conversations with them often and early about what they like to do, where they want to grow, what they think their career aspirations are, and try to align that best with what projects they’re assigned to.

      3. sb51*

        +1 to real work. Doesn’t have to be super autonomous if that’s not appropriate for their experience/ability, but they should get to feel like the work they’re doing matters.

        I misjudged an intern project one time—it was important work but the learning curve was steeper than I realized and how it fit into the larger picture was hard to understand until you got on top of all the material. So the intern was just lost.

        Someone else in the group had a chunk of super important but also fairly tedious work on their plate, and with my go-ahead offered it to the intern, who was delighted and did a great job on it, because he could see the results and understand the importance. Win-win.

        This is not to say you should intentionally give tedious work to interns, but make sure the importance of the work is clear and the scope seems manageable, and they’ll often not be there long enough to get sick of stuff you’ve done too many times to find interesting any more. (And maybe they’ll get ambitious and do a little automation or other process improvements along the way!)

    3. Ostrich Herder*

      Intern turned employee-who-trains interns, with eight years and quite a few interns’ worth of experience, reporting in. Like K said, approachability is huge, a lot of interns are going to struggle with interrupting you – especially this batch, COVID has done a number on social skills. Pop in on a semi-regular schedule to check in on them and see if they have questions, and positively reinforce the kinds of behaviors you want them learning – whether that’s independent problem-solving, asking questions, etc. Give them a strong sense of what your expectations are. What are their resources if they get stuck? How long should they spend trying to get un-stuck before you want to be tapped in? If you take them to meetings, let the know when or how they can chime in, vs. when they’re there to observe. Cutting down on uncertainty is going to make them more confident and help them learn more.

      In terms of assigning them actual work, figure out what they have experience with and what they don’t, and give them a good balance. They’ll be more confident if they get to do some stuff in their wheelhouse, and you want to expose them to stuff they’ve never done before so they get a sense of what they like and what they don’t. Letting them own projects – even small ones, which may not be used in the end – will give them start-to-finish experience they can’t get in a classroom.

  35. Anne*

    Fellow communications professionals, I am at currently unemployed and my wit’s end in terms of job hunting. When a job posting requires a cover letter, I craft a personal/tailored cover letter and resume, yet I still get rejected. If a job posting doesn’t require a cover letter, I don’t always submit one, and I am rejected once again. Does anyone know what might be going on? Hiring managers, are you reading the cover letters candidates submit?

    On a related note, a friend who works in pharmacy logistics insists that most writers are using AI to churn out cover letters and so I’m not a competitive candidate by virtue of not sending dozens of applications a day. I’d love to hear from other writers on if/how you’re using AI in drafting cover letters, and from anyone who might have insight on if my friend is correct or not. If it matters, my primary experience has been in the nonprofit world and I continue to seek roles in that sector.

    1. Morgan Proctor*

      Hi, I’m a writer. Do NOT use AI in your cover letter, it is so so obvious and tacky. Your friend is full of it. They’re not even in the same field as you, why are you believing them? I think the non-profit world is tough on a good day, and the job market is having a bad moment right now.

      1. Anne*

        Thanks, Morgan. I actually didn’t/don’t believe them and was skeptical that writers are using AI, but wanted to double-check my blindspots/bias/field awareness, as I’ve been incredibly demoralized and disheartened by the length of my search and failure to find new employment. I also think it’s tacky and obvious to use AI in cover letters.

    2. ferrina*

      Are you writing your cover letter from scratch? I have a cover letter template- intro paragraph, outro paragraph, and a selection of body paragraphs that each highlight a different skill/anecdote. I assemble the best pieces for that application, polish it up so it flows, then send it on.

      For AI- I used AI in my work. It’s great for writing a first draft, but you almost always need to edit it pretty heavily. It’s about the same as asking an intern to write the first draft of a detailed document- every so often you get lucky, but in general, plan to do a lot of editing or re-write.

      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I could see using AI to help you outline a cover letter if you didn’t know where to begin in terms of structuring it, but particularly in communications, you want it to reflect your voice and the achievements you think really make you shine.

        In terms of the response issue, I think it’s just that there’s a lot of competition out there, and even the best package won’t necessarily do the trick if there’s someone out there with a ridiculously applicable set of skills and past experience. Have you had friends and mentors in the field take a look at your materials just to make sure you’re not overlooking anything (and to help pass along the word that you’re looking)?

      2. Candidate with NVLD*

        Not necessarily from scratch — I use old cover letters to sort of Frankenstein new ones. I’d say it’s about 70% working with existing material and 30% using new ones. I admit I have used AI to “help” with cover letters (a different friend taught me a trick for getting ChatGPT to evaluate your application from the hiring manager’s perspective), but never included any of the AI-generated language in my application.

          1. Anne*

            Ask ChatGPT to evaluate the qualifications of a candidate for a job. Input the job details and your resume. You can also ask it to explain where the candidate might fall short.

            Tailor cover letter/resume accordingly.

    3. nonprofit*

      I’m not in communications but at a small nonprofit and have been involved in hiring recently, including for a comms position. We certainly do read cover letters, and it’s obvious when someone has used AI and not bothered to customize/edit. Not a good look. I know it’s frustrating, but it sounds like you are doing the right things. Is there a trusted person you could get to review your cover letter and resume to make sure they are as strong as possible?

    5. Apex Mountain*

      I don’t see why you can’t use AI to come up with a draft or outline, then edit it accordingly

    6. I should really pick a name*

      A cover letter can help you, but it doesn’t guarantee success.

      Sending more applications increases your chances by virtue of probability, but it doesn’t make you a more competitive candidate.

      Try to take a look at your resume as if you were someone who doesn’t know you (or maybe ask a friend). If it were put up against someone with similar qualifications, what would make you look like the better candidate?
      Are there any things in your job that you did particularly well? Try to highlight them. Don’t just mention that you did X, mention how you did X more effectively than the average person.

    7. CoverLettersOnlyHelpIfTheyreRead*

      I’m a writer who often interviews people. I only see resumes not cover letters. This has been true at every job I’ve had. Folks who’ve interviewed me have said the same thing about my cover letter and/or clearly been unfamiliar with its contents.

      I no longer customize cover letters unless I really, really want a particular job and feel like my qualifications will not be fully self evident from my resume. I have never gotten an interview from any of these jobs, though.

      YMMV, of course.

    8. M2*

      I would do a mix and do a couple with AI that you tweak and some on your own. Also diversify applications look at private sector, public sector, higher education, etc. I would also apply for different types of roles. During Covid imho many people had inflated titles so say you were a Communications Manager apply for manager, director, and specialist roles.

      I have had people apply for the wrong role especially if you change careers. If you were come in private sector it might be a bit different from public sector. I recently hired for an associate director role (that I was hoping would turn into a director role but couldn’t at the time because of HR) and I had people applying who had no experience or very little management experience. It said minimum 7-10 years of work experience and I had so many people apply with 2-5 years. I ended up hiring someone who was a associate director in another industry and even though they had the same title struggled for the first 12 months of the role. It was hard that even someone who had that much experience and was clearly first choice in the interview needed a lot of hand holding. I understand training and we have weekly meetings and check ins but it was still a change for them.

      Reach out to your network. Contact your graduate or undergrad and see if they have any alumni or networking opportunities you can go to and network.

      Volunteer at nonprofits who might need communications work. Even 10 hours a day will be able to add to your resume and you might meet people who can help you get your next step.

      A lot of times you need to get your stuff in front of the hiring manager. I make HR send me every application so I can look over on the portal but I know people who have HR or AI screen out candidates. I have found so many great people by looking myself (when HR would have nixed them because they don’t know what is really needed for a role).

      Also, look at think tanks! Relief web has jobs for non profits and non governmental organizations and you can apply for communications roles and also development / grant manager roles if you’re good at writing.

  36. I do not work for CrowdStrike*

    No, Virginia, you can’t go back….

    I completed a 60-hour contract over 4 weeks with an organization I left a few months ago. A coworker asked me to train a staff member on my role. I quoted a ‘friends and family’ rate as I was doing this for the coworker and another coworker affected by the issue. Their original hourly rate was my last base pay + 15% which I countered with a higher rate they accepted.

    Mid-training that staff member resigned so I transitioned to training a temp (to fill, not to hire) despite the contract reading ‘training paid staff member’. It’s a new ball game when training a temp with zero experience.

    I fixed everything, brought everything current, and did one project out of scope. But I didn’t have enough contact time to train the temp with any semblance of competency. We had about 25 hours of training together and were just getting into new gift areas. The coworker was surprised this temp wasn’t able to work independently. After 4 work days, that weren’t concurrent thus learning lost over 4 days, there should be no expectation of a temp working independently at this point.

    The org wanted to extend my contract, as is, to include the rate. I said, “No. My friends/family rate expired. The new rate is $20 more because I have to train this temp to be fundraising campaign ready in 4 weeks. I’ll be using all my super sauce powers to make it happen as well as my knowledge, history, and expertise.” It’s slow right now so I’d have to create work/scenarios, traing, quality check, etc. And preparing the campaign which the temp won’t be trained in.

    They declined my new rate citing ‘not enough work, or budget, to justify the rate’ thus ending the contract. They have vacant slots and aren’t going to hire anyone, so yes, they have funding. It does put the new VP in a position, so I’m not too upset. I wish them the best going into a campaign with over 1,000 gifts that require processing. They’re relying on my thorough and well-written transition docs to help them through (they’re good but good enough to train a temp on their own? I’ll never know) I joined the org at the same time years ago and had a coworker/trainer help me through this time.

      1. I do not work for CrowdStrike*

        I re-read it again and had the same (but delayed) reaction as you, ‘Not enough work?’ Right now we’re slow so it’s a good time to train, but in a mere 2 weeks the digital campaign goes live and the direct mail will start returning mid-Aug. they probably think that there isn’t enough training work to justify $50/hour but they have no clue what training someone entails. I know I’m not charging enough as it is.

  37. Someone stole my croissant*

    Ahh- warning, this is a rant/funny story that happened yesterday. Read at your own risk of feeling my negativity! :)
    I work at a pizza restaurant, and we’d closed. The open sign was off, half the lights were off, and we were putting away the food. The door wasn’t locked because we didn’t have a key, but someone was coming by in a few minutes to lock up. Anyway, this little girl comes in and asked if we were closed. We said yeah, sorry. She said okay and walked out. A few minutes later her mom walks in, all hooty footy. My coworker and I just stand there. My jaw is open. She demanded we make her a pizza despite us telling her we were CLOSED, we’d have to wash more dishes and put back food, and we could get in trouble for staying late. There was a mess up chicken pizza we offered her, but she didn’t want it. My coworker had to give that customer her own pizza that my coworker had been given by our manager just to get her to leave. She finally left but my coworker was pretty upset about how the customer had treated us and how she had to give up her pizza. In hindsight, I shoulda called the cops, but I was shocked, and kinda frozen. I’m glad my coworker was there, because she handled it more respectfully than I would’ve.
    People, if the workers say they’re closed, *sigh* they’re closed.

    1. Fiona*

      “My coworker had to give that customer her own pizza” — wait, why??? Closed is closed! (Unless it was, like, 9:45 and your sign said you close at 10:00 or something)

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “No” is not only a complete sentence, but one that can be repeated to escalated and unreasonable requests.

      This would be a situation where I’d love to say “Ah, I have a solution! I can make you a pizza after hours if I get management approval.” Then hand her a super detailed form to fill out completely so that you can submit it to the keyholder when they arrive. And then have her sit down and wait for the keyholder. And it’s too bad the coke machine is turned off because you can’t offer a drink until you have a permission. Oh, and have the form make her sign off on a $20 after-hours charge.

    3. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      As someone who has been there I am so sorry this is the worst! What does management say? I’d say Is there a way you can put something in front of the door so people cant open it but that is just going to cause customers like this to bang on the door.

      I would say no, explain you are closed. Then if they refuse to leave tell them you are going to call the police because they are trespassing.

    4. It's Not Delivery*

      I heard on the radio just before coming in today that an employee at the cafe at Sam’s Club was assaulted by a woman because they wouldn’t make her a pizza at close. Like y’all I love pizza too but…. go get you a DiGiornio

    5. WellRed*

      Perfect example of not giving reasons beyond “no.” I hope the lack of a key to lock the door was a one time thing.

    6. ecnaseener*

      I’m glad my coworker was there, because she handled it more respectfully than I would’ve.

      Sounds like she handled it too respectfully, if “respect” means giving up your own property to someone who has zero right to it!

      What is even the concern about being “disrespectful” – one disgruntled non-customer? She was already disgruntled, it’s not like giving up the pizza necessarily means she didn’t still go home and write a nasty review.

      1. Rex Libris*

        Yep, and “I’m sorry, we’re closed and everything is already shut down.” is perfectly respectful.

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      Ah yes, the world exists only for MY NEEDS person.

      I hope she got food poisoning.

  38. bamcheeks*

    Can I just check that everyone has seen Mel B / Scary Spice’s graduation gown? If you haven’t, please go and Google it.

    2. Yorkshire Tea Lady*

      It was amazing!

      She’s amazing – she went and did one of the courses the uni offers so that she could feel part of the student body and that she’d “earned” the honour.

      She’s Mel B – what does she need to prove to anyone?

  39. Frog*

    I apologize if this has been asked before but I have a women’s work pants question –

    Looking for: Wrinkle free, black, not jeans, appropriate for casual office / interview, fabric that doesn’t attract cat hair or at least won’t hang on to it for an eternity, not form fitted, fabric durable, machine wash. With pockets.

    I tried looking on amazon, and researching fabric, and got so many answers (wool yes / wool no, linen yes / linen no) that I gave up. I’m working in a casual office where jeans are the norm but would like some options for dressier events and for interviews. Shopping for clothes depresses me with all the returns. I usually wear a size 16/18 in jeans and have a long torso so high waisted usually work the best for me. maybe medium – never low.

    Do these pants exist?!

    1. Elle*

      I’ve had luck with pants at Lands End and specifying what I need on Stitch Fix. I’ve given Stitch Fix specific requests and they’ve come through.

      1. Frog*

        Thank you I’ll check them out! Maybe no more amazon searches would help me feel less overwhelmed with options.

    2. Forest Hag*

      Athleta has great pants for what you are looking for. They have many wide leg and straight leg options that aren’t form-fitting, and they are usually a stretchy technical fabric that is silkier than knit and holds it shape better. Plus wide elastic waistbands, and they typically sit high on the waist (they also have tall sizing). I buy Athleta pants from Poshmark, because they can be kind of expensive, and Poshmark (or Mercari) has tons of people selling them so you can get a much better deal. However to start with, I would probably order some from Athleta’s website and get a feel for the fit, since ordering from the secondhand places won’t let you return anything. Athleta’s return policy is pretty good.

      My favorite of theirs are the Brooklyn pants, Nolita pants, and Endless pants. These are synthetic fabrics so it’s not going to be as “polished” as something like a tailored wool trouser, but I think they work great for most office situations.

      1. lemon*

        Came here to suggest this as well. I like the high-waisted Pixie – those are the only pants I’ve ever worn that have front pockets that comfortably fit an iPhone.

        1. Frog*

          Wow real pockets that would be amazing – I figured asking for useable pockets might make the whole quest useless – thank you!

    4. sunset*

      I don’t have suggestions, but I’m curious in what world linen pants are wrinkle-free.

      1. Frog*

        I think it was the cat hair repellent quality that they had – I knew linen wasn’t wrinkle free. I’d actually have a hard time choosing between wrinkle free and cat hair repellant. I hate the iron but I go through so many sticky rollers . . .

    5. CherryBlossom*

      I have no answers, only commiseration. My only real go-to is American Eagle, but it’s mainly jeans, and they’ve gone down in quality over the past few years. Though they still make their pockets big enough to hold even the chunkiest of phones, so I still recommend them for weekend wear!

      But alas, the search for the Holy Grail of Women’s Pants remains elusive :(

      1. Frog*

        I’m really hoping any job I get will be okay with mostly jeans – I don’t know what I would do in a dressy office environment. Just finding interview outfits is bad enough.

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I have been wearing some great pants from Duluth Trading company – polyester but stretchy, sturdy, and look like dress pants from a polite distance despite the incredible comfy-ness and quality pockets. Reasonable price. I have a few colors and don’t wear anything else to work. So neutral that they can go with anything.

      1. Frog*

        I love Duluth – didn’t think they’d have any pants that work but their shirts are really nice! Thank you!

      2. Autumn*

        I also wear Duluth pants or skorts almost every day to work. So many pockets! So comfortable! I can get away with the slightly more casual styles at my job, and they are also perfect for gardening.

    7. Ricotta*

      Express Editor Mid Rise Bootcut is my go-to that ticks all these boxes, but there are other cuts in the Editor line that are also flattering.

      1. Frog*

        Wow so many options – obviously I came to the right place for inspiration. Thank you!

      1. Frog*

        Thank you for another suggestion I’m going to have to look everything up when I get home from work and order some before I forget!

    9. But maybe not*

      I haven’t tried it yet, but the algo feeds me non-stop ads for Halara and my interest is piqued. It seems like some of their fits/styles might meet your needs. Can anyone speak to their clothing?

      (Although truly, how does one avoid cat hair????)

      1. Ostrich Herder*

        I have a few pairs of Halara pants! I bought the stretchy ones with real pockets in both flare and straight leg. They truly do feel like you’re wearing yoga pants, almost obscenely comfy. The quality isn’t anything to write home about, but my favorite pair, the flares, have held up to being worn at least once or twice a week for over a year now. I’ve got a few loose threads and the fabric isn’t pilled, exactly, but it’s slightly rougher to the touch than it used to be.

        The buttons are pretty obviously fake, especially on the straight leg pair which has three, and I don’t know how well they would pass for a “real” dress pant in a more formal industry, but I love them for my casual, jeans-are-fine-but-yoga-pants-aren’t kind of office.

        1. But maybe not*

          Thank you!!! I have one pair of straight legged yoga work pants from a different brand and I think they’re comparable to what you’re describing. I may have to try some.

      2. Frog*

        I have some clothing that becomes one with the cat hair after one wearing – so I’m mostly trying to avoid that problem! I agree – it is unavoidable!

    10. Ostrich Herder*

      I like Quince’s ultra-stretch ponte pants, which are extremely comfy and available in a variety of cuts. They’ll pick up pet hair, but it brushes off with a hand pretty easily and perfectly with a lint roller. They’ve held up well to being machine washed on cold and dried on low, and have never wrinkled.

      Unfortunately, I think the only ones that are available with pockets are the straight-leg ones, which may be a little more form-fitting than what you’re looking for. But the back pockets are serviceable and the front pockets are absurdly large – they go down about halfway to my knee.

      1. Frog*

        Yes, I much prefer the looser styles so that is good to know it is so hard to tell from the photos. Esp if they have AI photos – not helpful at all since the people are so weird looking!

        1. Ostrich Herder*

          Yeah, the straight leg ones fit like a legging basically to the knee. It’s a pretty thick fabric, so it doesn’t feel very revealing, but if that’s a dealbreaker for you these might be worth skipping! If they release a version of the wider-legged ones with pockets, though, those would probably check all your boxes!

    11. Kathenus*

      They may be too casual for you, but Eddie Bauer Guide Pro pants/capris/shorts literally changed my life wardrobe-wise when I found them. And they come in petite/regular/tall in the size range. I do wear them to dressy casual type events personally, but I’m a very casual person.

      1. Frog*

        I bookmarked some on Amazon but they didn’t have the correct sizes there – Ill check out the website!

        1. Kathenus*

          If you decide you want to try them, get on their mailing list for sales. They’re pricey, but if you can wait a bit you can usually get 25-40% off (they are not always included in all sales because they’re a popular item).

    12. avocadolime*

      Universal Standard has solid work pants that drape nicely and don’t wrinkle too badly. They are not cheap, but I’ve had decent luck on the re-sale site Poshmark. (Do note their sizing is based on a size 18–which they designate their M–so double check the size if you do go the second hand route.)

    13. Frog*

      Thank you to all the responses I really appreciate them! It is so helpful to have ideas of where to look to save time.

    14. juliebulie*

      Duluth Trading Co. has lots of rugged work pants. Some of those pants are black. Sometimes they have amazing clearance sales.

    15. OtterB*

      Seconding Lands End. I like the sport knit pants. The solid color ones may border on too casual – they are fine for my office and for meetings but might not work everywhere. The patterned ones vary from year to year but are plaid, check, pinstripe, etc, and pair well with a solid color top.

      I also like the matte jersey pants from Ulla Popken. Many styles don’t have pockets but some do.

    16. KT*

      It looks like you have gotten several good recommendations. Mine is also for Old Navy due to their khaki style pants. They used to be my go-to when I uniformed. Once you find your ideal size, catching them on sale is the way to go!

    17. Now retired*

      Surprisingly enough, Old Navy. That’s where I get all my pants and I’m about your size.

    18. Wolf*

      I found mine in an unexpected place: 5.11 Tactical. They make several models of office-style trousers for women, and the only “tactical” thing about them is that they have pockets. I can fit my two work phones, keys and key cards into them without looking bulky.

  40. New Boss Blues*

    I am on my fourth new boss in three years, and I’m having a *really* tough time getting myself amped up to “prove myself” all over again. Three times I managed to strike up a good rapport and become a trusted employee/subject matter expert … but now I’m worried I’ll let burnout cause me to act carelessly and make a bad first impression. There’s an effort-to-impact thing where, if you get started off on the right foot, later difficulties can be smoothed over – whereas if they see you as a problem early on you’ve dug yourself such a deep hole. I’m not the problem, but I’m also deeply tired and not enthusiastic about taking on all sorts of Big! New! Ideas! this person already has. But honestly, I don’t want to quash their enthusiasm and we badly need new ideas. I just don’t want to be the one charged with implementing them all; I don’t want to set up a dynamic where she’s Ideas Person and I’m Workhorse Implementer. Yes, I’m job searching – but in the meantime, what kind of script would you be willing to hear if you were the boss in this scenario, meeting a new-to-you employee who is really burned out?

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      Oh this has to be tough. Is there a reason why you have to prove yourself? Not knowing what your job is its hard to tell but why hasn’t bosses just taken you at face value. If you weren’t worth it you wouldn’t be here right? Are there performance reviews or anything that you can show that in the past you’ve done and been successful at?

      Are you sure that the new boss is going to make YOU do all of this work or is this something that you just think is going to happen. If the boss does come up with an idea I think it would be appropriate to say “How do you want to implement that idea. I already have XYZ and would not be able to do all of this extra work. Can we assign some things to others?

      1. New Boss Blues*

        We have a lot of issues in this place (see: four new bosses) and it would be reasonable to think the performance from my program is part of the problem. It actually is, but that’s not really my fault because I constantly raise what would be needed to make my program deliver, and it doesn’t happen. It could be relatively reasonable for my boss to decide the problem is me, and that getting rid of me could create the delivery we all want. Honestly, maybe she should get rid of me! But the last three came to understand what I was saying and start to try and make the changes we need to make (and then left due to other dysfunction) while my program continues to not deliver what it should/could. Because we don’t have the things we need.

    2. ferrina*

      Oh no. I’m so sorry.

      Nothing you say will penetrate the Optimistic Haze of the Big! New! Ideas! boss. This boss will not be swayed by logic.

      These are the magic phrases:
      -“Let me look into that and get you some options” said with enthusiasm. The trick is to buy time by “gathering information/options” and then returning to them with options that are doable for you. Usually Big New Ideas bosses lose steam and may nix the project before it gets out of the design phase– if you can trick them into having a design phase. (yes, I said trick. I have met no Big New Ideas bosses who put value on planning or design).
      -“Let me just check priorities with you. If I do X, I won’t have time to do Y. Is that okay?” This is a tough one. Sometimes it works, but sometimes they claim that X will only take 5 minutes (it won’t, it will take 2 hours) and then they think that you ‘don’t get it’ or are slow. Note that most of them won’t actually do the work themself.
      – Create their own task to keep them busy. Ask them to help you get buy-in from X department. Claim that you aren’t senior enough to do Y, but if they can get that done, you’ll work on Z. Or ask them to proof something- Big New Ideas bosses often love to tell you what you are doing wrong, so if you have a document that you don’t mind being re-written, it will keep them busy doing something that isn’t coming up with new ideas.
      -Stay out of their way. Have limited time with them so they have limited opportunity for a brain dump. Always have questions that you NEED them to answer during your meetings, so you eat into the agenda by asking them questions rather than having them brainstorm with you. I’m chatty, so I also found that if I talk about the technical aspects of the project with them like they’re knowledgeable, they often nod along then find an excuse to avoid me (most of my Big New Ideas bosses were only having ideas because they didn’t actually know what was going on).
      -Play to their emotions, not their logic. Usually Big New Ideas are accompanied by a big ego (not always, but often), and for these folks they will favor someone who makes them feel good over someone that gets things done. It sucks, but it can buy you a short-term reprieve and space to actually do the things that are important.
      -Don’t tell them that you are burned out. More often than not, this will cause you to be treated like a delicate flower or like someone who doesn’t have the “mental fortitude to succeed”. Fake it until you know if this boss is someone that is safe to be honest with (I’m sorry, I wish it weren’t so, but this has proven necessary many times for me.)

      Good luck! I hope your job search is fruitful!

    3. Jen*

      Sorry to hear you are in that position! It sounds exhausting. I’m dealing with something somewhat similar, burned out, ready to move on, but feeling the need to fake enthusiasm for job security until I can get out.
      I think ferrina’s suggestions are good, and I agree on not mentioning the burn out. I did, because I couldn’t hide it, and I do think I’ve lost an opportunity to take on a project because of that. I don’t feel like being sociable and positive, but I do some of that anyway and just view it as part of the job.
      Some things that seem to help: reminding myself that I am letting them pay my salary while I work on getting out, limiting outside of work commitments, doing a hobby (sewing) that requires a different kind of thinking. And reminding myself of my savings goals–why I’m doing this job.

    4. JS*

      I have been here- in the space of 9 years I have had 10 changes in boss (and 8 bosses- there was some back and forth even for a while) and at least 2-3 division changes. It is exhausting.

  41. Aye Nonny Nonny*

    So my “rebadge” date to the outsource company will be August 1st. How do I reflect this on my resume? When should I update LinkedIn?

    I’ll be doing the same job (with 10+ years experience) but involuntarily changing companies. How do show this accurately but not awkwardly?

    1. Mad Harry Crewe*

      My linkedin has a note under my current employer/position: “Oldjob was acquired by Newjob in January 2023.” If you can find a tidy way to word it, I think a similar note would do fine on both resume and linkedin. “Oldrole moved under Newjob as of August 2024” maybe?

  42. Interview Help*

    I have a interview! It’s essentially my same role at a competitor. My current job I started as an individual contributor and will be leaving from essentially a director level role. Due to this, I’ve never interviewed for this level of role before. Any thoughts or advice?

    I have Alison’s book and will be practicing the interview questions listed there. I know someone that works at the company now and someone who has interviewed there in past, so I’ve asked them for advice, too.

    I’m most worried about my lack of experience in interviewing for this type of role and I’m not sure how working at a competitor will change things (if at all).

  43. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I might have posted this a while back but I think it got lost. I’m looking for suggestions to stop the boredom at work. I work in a university as an admin assistant and most of my coworkers are 10 months and wont be back until August. It is extremely slow this summer but we need to be available.
    I’ve done all the summer projects I was given. Organized cabinets, files, and all of that. I know come end of August we will start to do trainings and stuff as a team but until then I am dying of boredom.
    Besides getting thigs ready for the next years goals and doing any type of professional development that I can find I don’t know what else to do. There have been days where I have started to fall asleep!!!

    1. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Take a block of time to learn something that interests you, even if it is not “professional development” – Yale free online, Khan academy, language app. Pick a course and work on it like it is part of your job.

    2. MsM*

      Are there any research projects you could do? If you have systems that need improving, maybe look at best practices or new solutions for those? Or check in with other departments and see if they need help with their filing? Long “informational” lunches with others in the field who happen to be around? Worst case, if you’ve got a good relationship with your boss, see if it’s okay to just quietly take (more) summer hours?

    3. But maybe not*

      Do you have to be physically in your office as part of your duties (reception, answering phones)? I’ve been taking a lot of walks on campus with my notifications for email/instant messaging on. If people aren’t keeping tabs on your comings and goings, you could still be very available but take a quick walk every hour to help the time go by.

      1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        Yes. We are a counseling center so someone has to be at the desk.

    4. CherryBlossom*

      I’m in a similarly boring job; would you be able to talk to your manager about what you can do with your downtime? I’m very lucky that mine was straightforward and said I can bring in a kindle or watch netflix as long as I keep an eye on phones/inboxes. I’ve made my way through quite a few audiobooks and comics!

      It may not be an option for you, but it doesn’t hurt to address it just to see if you can.

    6. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Can you read? Possibly something a prof at the university is going to be teaching in the fall or something like that? Maybe dive into the AAM archives–it’s at least work-adjacent.

      You could also try a book of crossword puzzles, or crocheting, or some other hobby you can do offline that is easy to pick up/put down as needed.

      Test all the pens in the building. Toss the ones that don’t work. Is there a labelmaker? Label everything.

    7. Girasol*

      Have you ever imagined writing a novel or fanfic? It’s a great way to look busy, hone writing skills, and stave off boredom.

  44. Carrots*

    I work in a toxic environment where the culture is very “kiss up kick down”. I have coworkers that will do whatever the boss says, but if I’m supposed to work with them on a task, they just dump it on me. If I ask them to verify their part in the task, they claim that they’re too busy or they don’t know or some other excuse. I’m left doing all of the work and it’s not fair and I’m tired of it. I can’t do everything. I have other tasks on my plate.

    If there is something that they need me to do, I do it.

    Since they kiss up to the boss, I’m worried that if I went to our boss, boss wouldn’t do anything. Or boss would say that they’ll do something, but they won’t do anything.

    Any advice? How do you survive in a culture like this until you can find a new job?

    1. MsM*

      Go to the boss (or copy them on an email), explain that it appears neither you nor coworker have bandwidth for this task, and ask how they’d like to proceed. If they try to push it off on you, tell them you’re happy to do that, but you want to be sure they understand that means X and Y will have to wait. Repeat as needed.

  45. Candidate with NVLD*

    (Please be kind in the replies. I am very disappointed in myself for my failures/errors and really running out of hope for better days.)

    I am a 31-year-old AFAB non-binary person with non-verbal learning disorder/disability (https://nvld.org/non-verbal-learning-disability/). I am currently unemployed. I do my best to be engaged, responsive, and personable in conversations and interviews, though I believe I present stronger on paper (job applications and skills tests).

    People continually recommend I do mock/practice interviews to build skills. It’s not that I’m opposed to the idea, but this doesn’t allow me to practice my performance conditions — I am usually nervous during interviews and no matter the difficulty of the questions, I simply will never be as nervous in a mock interview as I am in a real one. I don’t know what to do, because I am apparently not providing the right answers to my interviewers and can never get feedback from interviewers on how to improve. Behavioral questions can be especially challenging.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Unfortunately, I don’t think a mock interview will ever truly reflect the way one feels in a real one. However, can you try practicing in a setting that makes you nervous? As an example, for me, doing a mock interview in a public place would definitely put me in a more nervous state :)

    2. NobodyHasTimeForThis*

      Do you have any friends who have experience interviewing/hiring who might be able to help you. I would not dismiss the mock interview, but not for the purpose of settling nerves. For the purpose of practicing so that you know what to do and say and your nerves do not have to be as much of a factor.

      Mock interviews may not replicate the nerves but if you can provide examples of the types of questions that you think have tripped you up in the past and if they can provide some surprise questions, you might be able to get a baseline of where you can improve when you are NOT nervous.

      If you are stellar in a mock/not nervous situation, then you need to work with a therapist on anxiety tools, but in all likelihood, you can use the mock situation to get feedback so you can be better prepared. Better prepared helps with the nerves.

      And apply and interview as often as you can. While it can be defeating to not get jobs, practice helps. When I was looking to go back to work the first job interview I took I knew I would not likely want that job, but I wanted to practice interviewing.

    3. Choggy*

      General Interview Strategies:

      Learning about the history of the company or organization you are applying for to have a good perspective on what has led the company to become what it is today.

      Make a good first impression by dressing appropriately for the interview. Ask for feedback from family members or friends to evaluate your outfit for the interview.

      Look into the contact information of the person who will interview you for the job. See what position they hold within the company and also ask them who you will be reporting to (it may even be the interviewer.)

      Preparing for questions you may encounter such as:
      Tell me something about yourself. Describe yourself to the interviewer by not delving into personal information but instead describing how you would fit in within the organization.

      What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? When discussing your strengths avoid overused phrases such as “perfectionist” or “attention to detail” and instead describe how your abilities will be an asset for the company. When discussing weaknesses, consider talking about a problem you may have encountered in a previous job if applicable and solutions you found to solve that issue.

      Why did you leave your last job? This can be a difficult question to answer especially if you got terminated from your previous employer so tread carefully when answering this question by giving a brief and positive response.

      Behavioral Interview Questions:

      When answering behavioral interview questions, it is essential to use the STAR method.
      The STAR method is a structured way to answer behavioral interview questions. It stands for Situation, Task, Action, and Result.

      To use the STAR method, you should:

      Situation: Describe the situation you were in. Be specific and provide enough detail so the interviewer can understand the context.

      Task: Describe your role in the situation and what you were responsible for.

      Action: Describe the steps you took to address the situation. Be specific and focus on your actions, not just the outcome.

      Result: Describe the outcome of your actions. Be specific and quantify your results whenever possible.

      Here are some suggestions for mastering the STAR method:

      Practice: The more you practice using the STAR method, the better you will become at it. Practice answering common behavioral interview questions using the STAR method.

      Be specific: When describing the situation, task, action, and result, be as specific as possible. Provide enough detail so the interviewer can understand the context and your role in the situation.

      Quantify results: When possible, quantify the results of your actions. This will help the interviewer to understand the impact of your work.

      Be confident: When answering behavioral interview questions, it is crucial to be confident in your responses. Write out your answers to all the common behavioral interview questions mentioned above and rehearse your answer repeatedly until you feel confident speaking clearly and confidently and avoid rambling.

      1. EllenD*

        I’d also suggest thinking about what to do when something goes wrong due to your nervousness. I had one colleague who got very nervous during interviews, we did mock interviews to practice the questions and answers, including weird ones and then talked through errors. For example, what to do if you knock over the glass of water, or spill it while pouring, or you drop all your notes, or call someone by the wrong name. As others have said, if you’ve worked out what to do already, you don’t have to think in a panic and you’ll respond better.

    4. sunset*

      while you won’t be as nervous in a mock interview as a real one, the point is to develop muscle memory. So that when you *are* nervous, you default to the answer you want to give. I liken it to a performance – actors are never as nervous in practice as on stage, but you do the practice so you don’t have to think on stage.

      1. SansaStark*

        This is such a good metaphor. You want to have the routine questions down pat so that you’re in good shape to go into those surprise ones with a clear mind and some momentum from the rehearsed ones.

      2. ferrina*

        Exactly this. I used to do this to help me memorize lines- I would say them in several different ways that I would never use on stage. I would say them like Sylvester Stallone, like Dara O’Briain, like I was scared, like I was a Bond villian explaining my evil plan…..whatever I felt like. The goal was to say my lines so many times in so many ways that I would feel comfortable saying them in any conditions. I now use this trick for difficult conversations.

      3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

        This is what I was coming to say! It’s not about recreating the exact conditions, it’s about giving you something to refer back to when you’re in the moment.

      4. DrSalty*

        This is exactly the purpose of a mock interview. It’s to give you a chance to work on your answers and practice when you’re not nervous.

    5. Apex Mountain*

      The mock interview might not be the same conditions as a real one, but the main goal is to give you practice and reps. The more prepared you are, the less nervous you will typically be.

    6. spiriferida*

      Echoing those above – practicing responses isn’t just about getting exposed to the complete simulation of an actual interview, it’s about making the things that you have to do during an interview more automatic. It’s harder to think on your feet when you’re nervous, so having a script to fall back on gives you less things to keep track of when your mind is going a mile a minute.

      One technique I’ve seen people bring up on AAM when behavioral questions come up is having a few scenarios noted in your notes, so that you can pick a story from a list rather than trying to remember it in the moment.

      It might also help you to reason through how you want to respond to a mistake or a fumble during the interview, if it’s something you know you’ve struggled with in the past. Something like “how do I course correct if I realize I’ve been rambling?” or “what are some ways I can subtly self-soothe when I’m feeling interview nerves flare?” “How do I recover from something like fumbling a pen?” That way you can then practice those techniques with an observer and ask if they looked effective from the outside.

    7. Sleepy Friday*

      I don’t think anyone is as nervous in a mock interview as in a real one! If try it anyway at least once. They probably suggest it because the rehearsal can still help take the edge off. Actors aren’t as nervous in rehearsal as they are on opening day, but they still benefit from the practice. Think of it like driving a car in a strange place. It might not feel great, but it’s easier the 10th year after getting your license than the first. And it might be easier to find answers to your specific, personal challenges after walking the the general universal challenges of interviewing a few times. Good luck!

    8. kiki*

      Doing mock interviews isn’t necessarily just about replicating the exact conditions because you’ll never be able to recreate the nervousness you feel. Doing the mock interviews will make what you’ll need to say and do an interview so routine that you can do despite being extremely nervous.

    9. NotARealManager*

      Echoing that the mock interviews are about muscle memory and making your answers default answers when you are very nervous and can’t think critically. It’s the same as drilling a move in soccer, learning a position in ballet, or recertifying your CPR training regularly; when it’s performance time you can still be nervous, but you’ll automatically say or do the “right” thing without thinking about it.

      For behavioral questions, most companies ask a variation of the same 10-20 types of questions. You can google “commonly asked interview questions” and think ahead of time about what story or scenario you would bring up when you hear one of those questions. You can work backwards too and think about different things that have come up at work and tag them in your mind as “this situation applies to working with a diverse group, a time I was successful, and learning a new skill”.

    10. No Tribble At All*

      Are there any organizations in your area that help people with disabilities find jobs? One of my siblings worked with them for a bit.

    11. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      This is what I used in in-person interviews, not sure if it would work remotely. When the interviewer(s) were speaking, I’d lean forward just a bit in my chair. It made me look interested in whatever they were saying. When it was my turn to speak, I’d lean slightly back, which made me look relaxed, and therefore confident. In the last job I had (which lasted many years), I had to interview with a division head who was not enthusiastic but granted the interview because I was an in-house candidate. Afterwards, the department head who became my new manager told me it was the best interview he’d ever been involved in. I did it because although I had some relevant experience, I didn’t have other qualifications they wanted, so I knew I had to put on a hell of a performance – and that’s where the body language came in, using it like an acting exercise.

    12. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      A different tack you could try is to get as many interviews as possible, expecting to “fail” them, specifically to expose yourself to those conditions for practice. I never interviewed so well as when I was working as a temp and constantly interviewing for permanent jobs. I was comfortable, I knew what the questions would be, I knew what my answers would be, I stopped being nervous.

      You might even surprise yourself and get a job this way because you’ll be lowering your expectations of yourself, which might reduce your nerves. If not, you’ve still gotten the practice.

  46. Not so sweet summertime*

    I just found out some information regarding the new(ish) merit based raise system my job implemented last year and I’m not sure if I should be concerned about some of it. The main thing that made me rethink whether or not this system is actually a reward for doing well at your job is the scale that is being used to determine the amount of merit raise you receive. It’s a standard scale in the sense of it has a ‘does not meet expectations’, ‘meets expectations’, and ‘exceeds expectations’ levels. You’re scored based on how you met certain metrics that are specific to your job position, and that score determines where you fall on the scale and what percentage raise you get. Since you need upper level administrative approval for ‘exceeds expectations’, almost nobody gets that, so most staff are being given a raise between 2%-3.5%. This (so far) has been on top of an across the board 3% raise given to all staff. But this year, they changed the scale so that you can have a ‘does not meet expectations’ score on a review metric, but still get a ‘meet expectations’ raise on the scale (whereas last year you had to get ‘meets expectations’ on all of your review metrics to get a ‘meets expectations’ raise). On top of that, managers also have to get approval to put anyone in the ‘does not meet expectations’ category on the raise scale. This, to me, doesn’t make any sense, because it’s been made clear that even being ‘high performer’ will not get you ‘exceeds expectations’ unless you’re doing and succeeding at tasks that are considered an organization wide impact, which means that basically all staff except a selected few are cut off at the high end of the ‘meets expectations’ bracket. And I strongly suspect that few managers are going to go through the process of getting approval to put someone in the ‘does not meet expectations’ category unless the person is extremely bad. That means that with this new scale you now have poor performers being in the same raise bracket as high performers, with, at most, 1.5% separating their merit raises. On top of that, most of the work putting together the documentation to justify the raise is falling on subordinate staff, with managers just basically changing the scores as they see fit, adding a short statement to what the staff member submitted, and then meeting with us and submitting it.

    Now, I’ll admit to being very unfamiliar with how these types of raise systems work. I’ve worked in small government my entire working career, and have never had a raise system like this. Usually, it was just all you could hope for was a small across the board raise with the new budget/fiscal year (usually between 2%-3%), and that was it for the year. The system that my workplace implemented was in response to years of staff complaints about lack of merit raises (and basically lack of recognition that some staff have more success in their roles than others) and high turn over. I almost feel like I shouldn’t even be upset about how this system is being implemented because, according to what I looked up online, the overall raise I got from it (combined with the across the board raise) was not a bad raise for a yearly raise. However, I know that the lack of transparency from the administration about the raise scale is a bad sign (the documents are not officially secret, but they’re also not being openly shared with staff who are not in management positions). Thoughts?

    1. ferrina*

      I’m a little confused. It sounds like your workplace has across-the-board COLA which is guaranteed regardless of review results, and also merit-based raises based on review results. Is that right?

      It’s not uncommon to ask managers to justify people that Exceed Expectations or Do Not Meet Expectations. The goal on this is to even out evaluations across teams. There are some managers who would say any person that does a good job Exceeds Expectations; there are some managers that never let anyone Exceed Expectations (I’ve been told that I can’t exceed expectations, because if I did it meant my manager’s expectations weren’t high enough). Similarly, I’ve seen managers mark someone as “did not meet expectations” when they were doing three jobs (because they only did 80% of three people’s work. So 240% of a full-time job).

      In reality, this system has its downsides as well. An avoidant manager will mark everyone in the middle, regardless of performance.

      It’s also super common to start reviews with a self-review that the manager borrows heavily from. This is actually a good thing- you know much better than your manager all the things you did. This helps jog the manager’s memory for all the things that you’ve done in that review cycle. The manager should adjust scores as they see fit- the manager is rarely in perfect alignment with the self-review, so a bit of adjustment is very normal.

      I’m not sure what you mean by ‘lack of transparency’. It seems like there’s a lot of information available. What information isn’t available?

    2. go go govvie*

      This sounds pretty similar to how the US federal government handles annual merit based bonuses (not raises, which happen with a different system). For bonuses, while we provide an assessment of our work, managers definitely do their own independent assessment of each person’s work. We also have caps on the number of people who can receive the highest level of rating, which limits who can receive the top rating. I’ve been explicitly told by my manager that they were forced to make choices because only one person could receive the highest rating. Is it dumb? Yes, but it also prevents abuse, and it’s not like our bonuses are all that big. I’m more annoyed that I got an artificially low grade. There is probably some avoidance of giving staff who don’t perform even at expectation a low grade, but I’m not sure it’s reasonable to give someone a poor overall rating if they do well in say 75% of their role but fail to do well in the remaining 25%. As a manager, it’s hard to say exactly what expectation should be had for a role unless you’ve seen a lot of different people serving in that role over a long period of time.

  47. Justin*

    Thoughts on dishonesty from clients/participants/students (we can classify them differently depending on the action):

    I design the curriculum and run the learner management system for a bunch of training programs. We’re in the process of upgrading the LMS (a huge, and hugely important, project!), but a nagging thing keeps happening that wastes everyone’s time.

    The program participants often have to complete tasks, including surveys, quizzes, submitting of materials, and so on. They have to do this, they sign something, if they don’t do it, they get reminded, etc. (There’s potential support for their businesses involved, so, money.)

    I think, perhaps because not everyone is a digital native (these are adults obviously), there’s two related issues. Some of them aren’t super tech savvy, but that is fine (we can work with them on using the systems). However, one part of being tech savvy is being aware of how much your tech knows. I don’t mean in a surveillance way (and of course that’s true but not what I am referring to), I mean, some of them try to pull the same stuff I did in middle school, where I’d hand in a floppy disk (lol) and say my paper was on it and then say oh there must be a tech mistake, all instead of just doing the damn assignment.

    Well, sometimes our participants will insist they completed the task, when it is conclusively true they’ve either opened it and not started it, or (lol) checked off the completion box without doing it, or whatever. But my point is, they must not think we can see this behind the scenes (and by we I mean me because I’m the administrator).

    We usually just use boilerplate language about “hey our records show you have not completed this so if you don’t then…” and so on.

    But these are people who are burning a professional bridge with us by trying to get one over on us. We don’t confront them with the admittedly minor deceit, but then they may come asking for a loan (that’s part of what we do), and that sort of thing can impact your chances.

    The question is, is it worth telling everyone early on that the system is well aware of every time you even look at the page or click a button, or is it a bit like the NYC subway signs that say “hey plz don’t go on the tracks” in the sense that if you need a sign, you probably aren’t going to listen?

    1. Justin*

      (I say all this because these program are for marginalized groups (used to be only POC but now we don’t wanna get sued, of course) so I want them to take the lesson to heart, not try to do this, and then get their funding/support/etc. I do not want to punish, but, no one is going to give you money if you aren’t honest with them, at least if you’re not a billionaire.)

      1. MsM*

        Maybe less boilerplate language, and more “I really don’t want this to impact your chances of getting support down the line, but I need you to understand that it could if you don’t actually complete the tasks”? If they still choose to ignore the warning, that’s on them.

        1. Justin*

          I fully agree with you, but unfortunately my colleagues feel less comfortable writing things out themselves (everyone wants to be everyone’s friend, and then the funders don’t fund because we don’t push people enough, and I’m like (head asplode)), so I end up drafting a lot of the language.

          But I’ll make that suggestion to personalize from the standard text (which is at least useful in including the outlined consequences that were in the contract).

          1. Mad Harry Crewe*

            I think the distinction is less “canned” vs “written individually” and more “bland and formal” vs “written by a human, to a human.” You can still use canned language, just avoid formal/impersonal/legal-sounding phrasing. If you have a syllabus or other intro material, it could go there, or you could write a canned email that goes out to students the first time they try and pull this kind of thing.

          2. ronda*

            I think still send the ‘request’ in writing,

            but follow up with a call.

            With the message(s)
            not completing this can impact funding
            what problems are you having with completing?, ie do you need to talk about how to input the info? etc

      2. sunset*

        It sounds like a kindness to the people to explicitly state what you see, and the effects. That’s being a friend. The way you would point out food stuck to teeth etc. Point out what you see and the consequences.

        1. JS*

          Clear is kind; your coworkers are not doing these clients a favor by not telling them what the consequences of their actions are and that they are not meeting requirements.

      3. Happily Retired*

        Would it help to have an introductory module on “how all this stuff works”, including what they see and what you can see? Just tell them that clicking the “completed” button without ever having opened the course is very obvious on your end ? Also, tell them that when they post their completed assignment to your LMS, that they need to go back, reopen it (as if they were going to edit it), and verify that it’s there? You can’t say that the dog ate your homework when you have the opportunity to verify that your homework was delivered. Well, you can try of course, but it makes you look the fool.

        The idea is to let them know that you want to give them the opportunity to succeed, by providing training and support. You’re not there to play “gotcha”, but that you can clearly tell if someone did the work or not. Then, if they want to bail from the course because they realize that they have to do work, so be it.

        Also, please be sure that all your LMS how-to instructions, videos, etc. can actually be understood and followed. Get someone with zero experience with online learning to attempt to open and navigate one of the lessons, ideally someone like a family member who will have no qualms whatsoever about providing feedback. lol

        I sympathize! I’ve gone back post-retirement to get my BS, and especially when I was at the community college level catching up on pre-reqs, it was just amazing how many tactics and claims I witnessed. Middle school, indeed! And meanwhile, this aging Boomer has repeatedly lost her mind dealing with Moodle and all its little friends, including how differently it is set up by different professors.

    2. Daryush*

      I think you are onto something with your last paragraph. You can definitely tell people that the system can see every click they make and knows if they open something but don’t complete it. In fact, better to be upfront with them rather than waiting for them to do something wrong.

      1. Ostrich Herder*

        I agree with this – I think it should be part of your onboarding. Something like: “Just so you know – as administrators, we’re able to see things like whether documents have been opened or started, because it helps us troubleshoot issues. But it also means we check the status on documents if we notice they’re overdue, so be mindful of that and reach out early if you’re having issues or may need an extension.”

        You also mentioned that sometimes they “insist” things are done, which makes it sound like maybe this isn’t mentioned when you first reach out about things being late. If that’s the case, would it make sense to change the language on the first message about lateness to include “We noticed it was opened but not completed” or “We noticed it’s marked complete without having been opened” or something like that? Or would that complicate and slow down your workflow?

    3. AnonymousOctopus*

      I wonder if just acknowledging the temptation to click through could help. Something like “With any self-paced course, sometimes life gets busy. We know that sometimes there’s temptation to just click through screens without engaging the content. We have found that successful funding is directly tied to engaging with and mastering the content. If you are experiencing technological difficulties or need more time to complete a module, please contact us at [email]. We want you to get the most out of the course as possible in order to be successful [at next step]. Additionally, you should be aware that our system tracks what materials have been opened and how much time is spent on each page. When you attest to consuming the material, we are able to verify that it has in fact been done. Misrepresentations found later may require [insert “consequences”/what they need to do to meet program requirements].”

      1. ReadingSpeedVaries*

        Wait, what? You’re tracking how much time someone spends on each page? People read at different rates. Some people read really fast. I used to read really, really fast before medical issues slowed me down (I read Gone with the Wind in 4 hours when I had to read it in 8th grade). I used to read an average of about a dozen books a day above and beyond my schoolwork. I realize I’m an extreme outlier, but I know plenty of people who read multiple books a day and others who are lucky to read a single chapter in the same period of time. You cannot judge by how fast someone scrolls through a page.

        1. jmc*

          wow impressive. I used to be a really fast reader too although not like that. I have been slowed down by life/age/brain fog etc. I hate it. But yes I agree you can’t go by how fast someone goes through a page at all, people are not cookie cutter same even though they may think so.

        2. LMS manager for another firm*

          The LMS tracks it. That way we can see if someone is clicking through in seconds rather than stopping to read each page, no matter how long it takes. Which doesn’t matter.

  48. jmc*

    So who was affected by the crowdstrike outage? I’m actually off today but I walked into the room where I have my wfh setup and the laptop was NOT functional and it scared the crap outta me to be honest. I managed to do the workaround to get back in it from our IT dept but it wasn’t easy.

    1. CherryBlossom*

      My workplace was spared from the outage, but the Starbucks mobile app is down, so my coworkers and I are very much affected (all in good fun, of course).

      I do feel awful for any airline workers dealing with this; it looks like a nightmare.

      1. jmc*

        Oh yeah I don’t envy them at all. And people aren’t getting vouchers for hotel rooms and such and are mad which I get but it’s not the airline’s fault, it’s not the customer’s fault, but what can you do? Who should pay for that kind of thing?

    2. Generic Name*

      I’m wondering if my company is. I’m traveling today, and haven’t opened my laptop, but I’ve only gotten 2 emails today.

    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      Several of my coworkers, and our VPN is down. I just sleep my computer overnight so I’m ok for now, but the VPN means we can’t get to some of our tools.

    4. SunflowerGirl*

      Yup. Most people don’t have access to anything that requires authentication. So, no MS 365, no access to VPN for remote workers–so they essentially have the day off. Those of us who are not allowed to work remotely yet have been surfing the web because we don’t have access to shared drives, the files and apps that are stored on them, and MS Office. But we are here, by god, with butts in seats, and that’s all that matters to the higher ups. We really thought we’d get to go home by now, but it’s almost 130 pm. Can you tell I’m not happy?

      1. SunflowerGirl*

        Oh, and I forgot to mention–since it’s Friday, all of the bosses are “working” remotely.

    5. Lady_Lessa*

      Lot of mess here, and we finally had our local IT consulting firm come in and get the computers up and running.

      Corporate’s response was less than inspiring.

    1. Someone stole my croissant*

      My job has given me some bad habits, and I’m struggling to stop it. Find out who encourages these behaviors in you, (I tend to gossip more with Janice and John) and actively do a different behavior. Instead of gossiping with Janice and John, I ask them would you rather, or we talk about vacations, or cupcakes, anything to avoid the topic of Fergus’s divorce/work habits/knee surgery.
      Don’t bottle up your emotions. That makes you more likely to snap.
      You might try gratitude, even if it’s “I’m grateful there are workplace norms so I don’t punch you.” From there, it’s easier to say, “ I’m grateful Fergus has an extreme attention to detail so he brought this to me” and “I’m grateful Fergus trusts me enough to let me handle this”.

    2. Antilles*

      The biggest tip I would suggest is to make sure you’re taking time outside of your working hours to restore your balance. Yoga, volunteering, walking in parks, I dunno, up to you, just so long as there’s SOMETHING to remind yourself of who you really are and that you aren’t the short-tempered snappy person that the 9-5 is pushing you to become.

    3. DrSalty*

      This happened to me some years ago, and honestly therapy was what helped me the most. Personally I had to reframe my thinking that I was actively choosing to stay there. When I was less resentful, it was easier to be patient.

    4. That me espresso*

      I’ve been in situations where the workplace itself was so toxic, and I was so closely identified with the role I played there, that there was just no fixing my attitude. I so invested that they only way to change my behavior was to start fresh somewhere else.

      When toxicity is high but personal attachment is low (or vice versa), I find it easier to control my reactions. For me, it usually comes down to needing to build a richer life outside of work so that the work stuff simply doesn’t affect me as much. Taking care of my physical and mental health, investing in relationships, spending more time on hobbies, etc. It’s not something that happens overnight, so give yourself grace!

  50. Butterfly*

    What tips do people have on here for effective career management?

    I realize about ten years into my career that I’m probably not the best at managing my career. First, I think I chose the wrong, unstable career path and now have to pivot to a more stable one. I’ve also never gotten promoted and have experienced two periods of unemployment. I’m looking into hiring a career coach to help me with this area. Basically, I need something like a therapist, but for career guidance.

    1. pally*

      Keep in mind that for any career advice, be sure to include talking with those in the field you wish to work in. That would include reaching out to professional organizations and such. Some offer mentoring programs. Maybe take a look into those (regardless of having 10 years professional experience under your belt). Professional organizations can also offer career advice. Ask about this.

      Make sure that career coach has actually worked in the field you wish to work in.

  51. Left Out*

    Earlier this year, my company was bought by another and since then it’s been chaos, which has me at the end of my rope. I think what put me over the edge was this:
    My previously 2-person dept (my boss and me) was incorporated into a group that’s not completely unrelated to what we do. There are now 14 people in the dept, and many are new and had never met in person until last week. They all flew in from all over the US, Europe, and Asia for a 3 day meeting. Everyone was involved, except me. I didn’t even know about it until 2 days before. There are a lot of things I didn’t need to be involved in, but some I would have appreciated being able to participate in. But I was literally left out of all of it, even simple stuff like lunch, where I could have at least met the new people face-to-face. I mean, we were all in the same building. It’s not like it posed some great hardship for me to join them at some point. I guess our VP included only his direct reports, and my boss is one of his direct reports, but that seems like a lame reason to exclude ONE person. And my position in the company means I’m highly visible, so it’s not like I’m so low level that it all would’ve been over my head. One of his direct reports is probably actually lower level than me, at best we’re equivalent.
    I thought about just popping in around lunch time, but honestly, I was busy and annoyed with the situation – and also not invited. So I didn’t. Am I being a baby about this? It feels like the professional version of “is everyone hanging out without me?”

    1. ferrina*

      Double checking- the VP only invited his direct reports, and your boss was the only one of those direct reports that had a direct report of his own? Or was it that the VP invited his direct reports, and some of those direct reports invited their direct reports, but your boss didn’t invite you?

      If you were the only direct report of a direct report (scenario 1), I wouldn’t take it personally at all. It was an oversight because your role is unique in the reporting line. In that case, you can check in with your boss as to when would be a good time for you to drop in and say hi.

      If other direct reports of direct reports were included but not you (scenario 2), it’s a little more awful. In that case, you still should have checked with your boss- sometimes there’s reasons why it makes sense to include others but not you. But you still should be able to drop by and meet people for a few minutes.

      Either way, you should have tried to find a good time to make your presence known. It builds relationships and helps you become better known, which is good for your career. It’s okay to be annoyed, but the trick is to not let your personal frustration stand in the way of building your reputation.

    2. Friday Person*

      Just to validate you that regardless how whether there’s a reasonable explanation, it was an oversight, etc. I would also have been pretty hurt/annoyed in this circumstance.

    3. Girasol*

      I did this to someone once. You don’t want to hear my excuses. I just plain flubbed and was mortified when I realized I’d left someone out of an event that he absolutely should have had the chance to attend. He was pretty upset and rightly so. If your place is chaos right now then leaving you out could be an innocent mistake. Point it out and give the VP a chance to make it up to you.

  52. RF*

    Not sure if this qualifies because this is a question about this blog, not about work, but I’m trying to find a couple of posts to share with a friend experiences some workplace issues and my searches those far have failed me.

    Can anyone link me to posts addressing how to tactfully inform someone of an issue without demanding it be dealt with immediately? I vaguely remember several posts where Alison provided a script that basically boiled down to saying “X is happening and I figured you would want to be aware of it” to your manager about a coworker’s behavior/actions or to your manager’s manager about your manager’s behavior/actions. This friend is in a situation where a manager is making poor decisions that are impacting the friend’s ability to do their job, as well as causing safety issues and possible discrimination, but they know that going to upper management saying “There’s a crisis and something must be done” will be disregarded, so they want a more diplomatic approach. Thanks in advance!

    1. Aspiring Square*

      This may be too simple for what you need, but in my office, “Forwarding for your situational awareness” (often shortened to FYSA) is our lingo for “not saying you need to jump on this, but you need to know it’s happening, I’ll leave it to you to decide next steps.”

    2. Nesprin*

      I’d highly suggest asking questions to focus attention on what your friend needs+ offer whatever solutions are handy vs. “red alert” sort of notices. Here’s how I’d write this:

      Hey Boss,
      I wanted to flag this for you- X is happening with frequency/consequences.
      I’m reaching out because X is causing major safety issues A and B , that expose us to liability C. How do you want me to handle this? I could start using D&F or work with G to do H to partially mitigate- do you want me to do this?
      I also need guidance on how to do my job while X- I’ve been struggling to get A & B and it’s causing us to miss deadlines Y&Z. I wanted to ask if I should prioritize A over B, and ask G to handle B in the mean times, or if there’s another solution I’m not seeing.

      Thanks

    3. Mad Harry Crewe*

      I would probably do something like this:
      – Initial ask: hey, Grandboss, do you have a few minutes to check in later this week? -or- hey, GB, I put some time on your calendar for a quick check-in.
      – At the meeting: I wanted to check in with you about [situation]. The background is [backgound] and as a consequence [consequences]. I need [needs] -or- I don’t need anything right now, but I’m concerned that this is becoming a pattern that could cause significant problems for us down the road. I wanted to make sure you had as much info as possible.

  53. Aspiring Square*

    Do you attend any professional round tables / communities of practice / whatever they might be called in your field?

    I see a need for improved communication among parallel teams in my workplace. There’s a vocalized desire for more collaboration and awareness of ongoing work across team lines. They all say “if someone would put something together, we’d totally participate.”

    SO. The challenge in front of us is to make something actually productive, that people want to attend and participate in, and that doesn’t suck, because if it ends up sucking, it’ll die before it takes off.

    Interested in hearing from others’ experience, the good, bad, great, and ugly! Everything’s helpful!

    1. NJTXIA*

      Yes! We have started a community of practice for several different groups in our organization over the last couple of years. Some have gone great and some have bombed. The ones that bombed seemed to have a couple of things in common:
      1. Too much fluff and not enough focus – lots of fun facts and ice breakers and games, so people would leave without any actionable information.
      2. Not enough moderation – some sessions turned into extended venting session and again, people left without anything actionable.
      3. Lack of understanding of what people needed in terms of information – the discussion focused on low-priority, already-understood, or (again) fluff over facts.

    2. But maybe not*

      I helped start a CoP at my employer for people in a similar job function to me. We met monthly for a year or two until the pandemic and a restructuring at the org changed a lot of the attendees job functions.

      To start, we organized a small team to help frame the purpose of the group, what topics we wanted to cover, and to use our collective networks to develop an invite list. This group met with some higher ups to get guidance and endorsement of what we were doing.

      We organized the logistics of the first meeting and sent out an invite to our list with a description of the group. During the first meeting we took time to discuss some ground rules and expectations and build on the shared goals that the steering committee developed.

      Once we’d met once, we took turns each month hosting the meeting. We would have a presentation on one particular topic and then open discussion time for items people brought forward. The host also had say in what the topic for the next month would be.

      We also developed a listserv for people to use between meetings to ask time sensitive questions.

      It worked pretty well and I think people got a lot out of it. We were able to solve some one-off issues, develop best practice around recurring issues, and raise concerns about systemic issues.

      Some of the problems we ran into were certain people stealing all the air time with complaints/getting off topic (yes, I know your daughter is getting married, I do not need the details at this time) and a couple of times a department director or VP wanting commandeer our group for their own purposes.

      1. Aspiring Square*

        This is almost an exact framework for what I had in mind after reading up on successful CoPs, but also better than what I was thinking. Thank you!

  54. DreamtoNightmare*

    My dream job has become a nightmare.

    I work for a really well-known company making good money, but good lord this job has gone from dream to nightmare lightening fast. My entire job description has changed and doesn’t match what I do (which is now several levels below what I was doing four years ago); the new project leader hired to replace the position I was told I was hired for loathes me and has helped to dissolve all trust between my manager and (I going so far as to call me in to HR for my facial expressions and being quiet in meetings); and frankly, my self-confidence has cratered worse than a teenager being dumped on their birthday which also somehow was at prom as well.

    I’ve been trying so hard to find another job. I have a tailored resume, regularly updated and fully reviewed by others, with experience out the wazoo, but I’ve not even had an interview in over a year. I’m so tired of feeling like garbage and watching my hard won skills atrophy. I have no idea what to do anymore.

    1. WellRed*

      Tell me you are a woman without telling me you are a woman.
      All you can do is keep looking for a new job and take as much time off from the current one possible.

      1. DreamtoNightmare*

        You got me pegged! haha Doesn’t help that the new team lead is also a woman who just happens to be ten times smiley-er and peppy-er than I am. Really emphasizes the “jealous shrew” and “fun gal” dynamic we have.

    2. ferrina*

      Disassociate. Hard. None of this is your fault, and you know that. If it helps, picture Molly Ringwald in this situation (I’m picturing her as the heroine in an 80s film where she’s dumped on her birthday/prom, and she would rock that role).

      Care less. Easy to say, hard to do. One thing that can help is not thinking about work when you aren’t at work. It can take practice, but the more you practice the easier it gets. Don’t volunteer for things anymore. Don’t clean up other people’s messes. You aren’t paid to get things done- you are paid to go through the motions of whatever silly thing they have you doing today. Your ambition and competence is threatening to them- it’s okay to embrace mediocrity to help you get through the day. I noticed that when my work persona changed to “cool, I’m just here to do what you tell me” (rather than “I’m here to do a good job”), my awful ego-driven boss was suddenly much happier with me simply because she felt less threatened. It made it easier to survive until I could get out.

      Oh, and therapy. You need a touchstone to help you remember what reality is. Because this workplace ain’t it.

      Good luck on your job search!!!

      1. DreamtoNightmare*

        I admit my relationship with my manager got a bit better after the HR fiasco when I finally just thought “I give up, I don’t care anymore”, but these issues still persist with the Lead and quite frankly her opinion is the only one my manager actually cares about. Sadly, given all the complaints about my work from the two of them, I really don’t think it’s intimidation. I think I’m just falling short, which sadly makes sense to me as my confidence is in the gutter and I’m so scared all the time of making a single mistake that I’m slower than ever with paralysis.

        I’m applying now! I just realize that I’m going to have to take a massive hit in pay and title to get out with today’s market. I dread getting questions about “Woah you worked for X? Why did you leave for a lower title at some random org?”

        1. ferrina*

          For that question-
          “My role at my current organization changed dramatically since I was hired, and I’m no longer doing any of the work that I was originally hired to do. I’m looking for an opportunity to get back into [thing that the new job will be doing], and that’s really key for me.

          I also question if you are actually falling short, or if you are just falling short of the unattainable imaginary goal they set. It sounds like you got the rug pulled out in a number of ways, and that usually sets people up to fail. It’s not fair to set someone up to fail, then chide them for failing. You might as well put a marble on a decline, then be annoyed the marble rolled away.

    3. Emperor Kuzco*

      would you be able to move to a different department/position within the company?

      1. DreamtoNightmare*

        I’ve looked into it! A few factors:

        -It’s highly relational, so my boss would likely block it.
        -Most of the jobs are lower level and much lower salaries.
        -Internal candidates aren’t given preference. Quite the opposite.

    4. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Time to take up a craft like needle felting which you can carry around easily and do in your break times. As it involves stabbing stabbing stabbing a needle into woolfibres, you might find it very cathartic. Extra points if you make an animal that represents the loathsome new project leader in some way, and all the points if you eventually give the felted animal to the loathsome one, on your last day before your excellent new job.

  55. WafflesFluff*

    Can anyone help talk me down from having extreme anxiety over this work situation?

    I recently went on a vacation and caught a nasty illness. I can’t stop coughing and don’t want to infect my coworkers. I have a fever and I’m still struggling to talk and hear well. It’s been a week of this with little improvement

    My boss won’t say much when I communicate with him. I keep him updated every day on my status.

    I’m so worried I’ll be fired. All my boss will say is I have negative PTO now and I need to bring a note when I come back.

    I’m also really worried I won’t be able to go to my sister’s wedding in September because of this. I’m in the wedding party and need 2 days off for travel. If that doesn’t get approved I’ll have to quit.

    Someone please tell me I’ll be ok. I feel awful and I’m stuck home alone and I’m worried this whole situation will get me fired and then I’ll be homeless.

    1. dulcinea47*

      Do you have an HR department? Talk to them and find out what the actual policies are, since your boss is not communicating. Unless it’s a small company and he’s the owner, he doesn’t actually get to decide what happens.

    2. Morgan Proctor*

      Wow, if you’re worrying you’ll be fired over having an illness, you’re either really blowing things out of proportion, or you work for the stupidest, most toxic company ever. I have no idea if you’ll be ok. I think you need to see a doctor, and plan on quitting regardless of what happens. Your job sucks.

      1. dulcinea47*

        maybe you don’t realize, this is what the US is like…. most people can get fired for any reason at any time.

        1. WellRed*

          This is misleading. There are lots of great companies out there where this wouldn’t be a problem. There’s also lots of shtty companies outside the US. OP sounds like she works for a bad company or maybe a bad manager.

          1. GythaOgden*

            Agreed. The UK gives a lot of sick leave, but even good small businesses often fall back on the terrible weekly rate of statutory sick pay. Doctor’s notes are legally required if a company is going to get help back from the government on this, and while a company is able to waive that requirement if it has its own sick leave pay policy in effect, most organisations want some form of documentation. It was also not until /2022/ that it became possible to get a fit note electronically or from someone other than an actual doctor.

            Many European countries have paid health insurance rather than free healthcare and that insurance often doubles as a short term disability pay if necessary. The problem for us in the UK is that we’re not used to paying extra for insurance (even if in reality a reasonable slice of each payslip is taken out as National Insurance, basically to pay for the cost of providing ‘free’ healthcare…) and thus don’t realise that the actual safety net is pretty skimpy and will never reach the point where it matches our wages.

            Six of one, half a dozen of each other.

            I don’t think I would have put it quite so bluntly as Morgan did, but even in systems that look generous on paper, there are trade-offs in practice. Unlimited leave at full pay would be difficult if not impossible for any country to implement, so things have to start and end somewhere.

            There is no need to panic though — and MP really overstated the case. Just…be mindful that the US is far from the only place with these issues and few other countries even in the developed world have found the perfect solution.

      2. WafflesFluff*

        I’ve seen a doctor, they told me it’s a virus, not much they can do other than give me cough suppressants.

        My manager is just not a good communicator. I don’t know what to expect when I go in Monday

    3. Medical Library*

      After being this sick for a week, I think you need to see a doctor, regardless of the work situation. I hope you’re feeling better soon.

    4. NotARealManager*

      I agree with dulcinea47 and Morgan Proctor. Talk with HR and/or read your company handbook section about time off procedures. Also look up what your state’s laws are regarding sick time and leave.

      Then make plans to find a new job after your sister’s wedding. There are plenty of jobs out there that don’t react this way to a really normal (though unfortunately timed) situation! When you’ve been in an environment that does act this way, it’s easy to normalize it. A lot of companies will work with you in these situations: reduced hours, temporary WFH, short leave of absence, letting you go negative in PTO, etc.

    5. Qwerty*

      You are sick and oxygen deprived and your brain needs something else to obsess over.

      – Boss not saying much = you are sick, you should be left alone. Plenty of managers say nothing after acknowledging they received your message.
      – Negative PTO message = most people would want to know this in case it factors into their calculations
      – Needing a doctor note = Very normal for extended absences. If you’ve already seen a doctor, call their office and have them write a note that you were seen and they recommend that you do not work until [X date, or Y condition, etc]. After a week of sick with no improvement, you should get checked out, so call your doctor, or get a telehealth appt, or go to one of those clinics in a CVS or Walgreens.
      – If you have HR, copy them when you send the note to your boss. Or send the note straight to HR. Ask what the negative PTO policy is.
      – Wedding time off. Postpone thinking about this until the first week of August. Get better, look up your PTO accrual. If you won’t have 2 days by September, then ask about going into negative since the unexpected illness used up PTO that you had budgeted.

      If you address the situation calmly, everything here will likely sort itself out and be a non-issue.

      3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Wedding time off. Postpone thinking about this until the first week of August. Get better, look up your PTO accrual. If you won’t have 2 days by September, then ask about going into negative since the unexpected illness used up PTO that you had budgeted.

        If you can’t go negative, ask to take the days unpaid. You won’t get paid for them if you quit, and having a job to return to after the wedding will be better than not having one.

        Looking at the big picture, unless you give your boss a reason to think any of this is mala fide, you’re likely going to be fine. I’ll echo the advice to stay calm and collected. Life happens. Especially when one employs human beings.

      4. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes. All of this. Such a useful comment.

        Re the Wedding: Negative PTO also might not be an issue at all. It may just mean you have to take the time unpaid (which at my work is totally permitted) or your boss might let you flex the time- work on a Saturday and Sunday to make up the hours, as long as it doesn’t take you into overtime territory. (Again this will depend on the place you work, we allow flex time as long as there’s no Overtime risk.)

        Firing you for being sick for a week would be really extreme, but asking for a Drs note is 100% normal. I hope you feel better soon.

    6. Higher Ed Cube Farmer*

      It doesn’t sound like you are in danger of being fired, unless there’s more going on than unfortunately timed illness. Since you’ve been told you need to bring a doctor’s note when you come back and be aware of your negative PTO balance, they are expecting to take you back when you are well (otherwise getting a doctor’s note wouldn’t matter), and keep you around long enough that you might want to take more time off (otherwise your PTO balance wouldn’t matter).

      For now, rest up, follow medical advice (seek some if you haven’t yet; a week of fever with little improvement deserves a professional medical opinion), and look into applying for FMLA if your employer is covered. Maybe ask your boss if he wants health status updates everyday–for some jobs/bosses that would be kind of excessive– or if he’d rather you touch base less frequently, or only let him know when you expect to be back and confirm on the day before.
      As an estimate, 24 hours fever-free without taking fever-reducing medications before returning to work or school is a common recommendation to reduce the spread of illness. If you return to the office earlier than that, or if you’re still coughing a lot when your return, consider wearing a well-fitting high-filtration mask so you don’t share your illness with your coworkers.

      You don’t need to worry about September yet, that’ll just amplify your stress now and slow your recovery. Worry about September in August, when you’re less stressed and able to examine your options without the extreme thinking of an anxiety spiral.

      How about you defer worrying about September until you update here in a couple weeks? I expect things will look better then–and if not, you can still get advice then.

      1. WafflesFluff*

        Thanks for the kind words everyone! I’m still anxious but all your advice helped, thank you!

  56. Syfy Geek*

    I’m getting ready to have my yearly review with my boss. He let me know he added a goal for the upcoming year to take on a leadership role in the llama grooming section. Specifically to become a manager-type over 2 other llama groomers. I’m excited to take this on, and he asked me to look into management training, ways to begin taking the lead- Any recommendations? I’ve been a manager previously, but that was retail.

    1. new manager*

      Alison’s book is great, even if you aren’t in a non profit. I also liked “The Manager’s Path” which is aimed at software developers but I found applicable to my job managing SMEs. I also read “Suddenly in Charge” although I didn’t think it was as good as the other two books.

    2. LMS manager for another firm*

      Do you have an LMS or some other internal training? Does HR provide training? If the answer is no to both, check out Coursera or a local university. If you’ve never been a manager before, try to find an “IC to manager” type course. Finally, HBR has a great book for new managers. Good luck!

  57. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

    I need some crowd sourced feedback on office temperature range. (The eternal struggle.)

    It’s currently 73 degrees in our shared office, and my coworkers are complaining of being cold. I am reasonably comfortable, but not wanting it to be much hotter. I’m under the impression that this is on the high side for a normal business casual dress office, but I also know some people struggle to stay warm. I suggested earlier that they may be feeling cool because they are in breezy clothing (shorts and sandals) but received the reply that “it’s summer out, we should be able to wear summer clothes.” Today I found the window propped open by a cold coworker, so I asked them to close it – they did not ask anyone else in the office if they wanted it open. (It’s also 77 degrees outside, with a high of 90 forecast.)

    Am I the asshole?

    1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

      To add a bit more context – the window opens onto a parking lot and I’m sensitive to smoke and pollen.

    2. dulcinea47*

      There’s no solution to this. There is no temperature at which everyone will be happy. Yes, 73 is too cold when you’re wearing summer clothing. No, it’s not okay to open a window in a shared space unless everyone is okay with it. They need to bring a sweater or hoodie if they’re cold, this is the normal thing to do.

      Everyplace I’ve worked keeps the thermostat locked on 72. (regardless of the actual temp in the building, which is a whole other problem.)

      1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

        Thanks, this is what I was thinking. I’m just a bit baffled that they would open the window without asking everyone (not to mention this may upset the HVAC system, which would result in more cold air being pushed through), and also refuse to modify their clothing.

      2. ferrina*

        Seconding this. There is no way to win the thermostat war.

        Sometimes you’ll get lucky and find a certain part of the building runs hot/cold and you can reassign a seat (like putting someone directly under the A/C vent or next to the sunny window), but that’s rare. Otherwise, yes, folks need to deal. I always kept a shawl in my desk for this exact reason (the shawl doubled as a blanket)

      3. goddessoftransitory*

        This. I have a hoodie at work specifically for this and a lightweight shrug in my bag.

        I walk to work, so I totally get not wanting to overdress for the weather! (I sweat like a pig in Panama with the slightest temperature rise, as well.) You’re boiling, get to work, three minutes of bliss, then freezing with the searing headache that comes with it–I totally understand. But that’s why people need to keep wraps and Excedrin on hand.

    3. Choggy*

      Ah, yes, the great office temperature wars, I am currently sitting in my cubicle, it’s probably close to 80 outside and the temp in here is probably 69-70 degrees and it’s pretty chilly, I would think 72-73 to be perfect. I usually run warm, but this is cold for me, and I don’t have a sweater/jacket to put on so I’m walking around and going outside to warm up. Some of our thermostats have cages on them so they can’t be changed, which is fine, unless the system goes on the fritz, which it does a few times a month.

      People tend to care only about their comfort, to the consternation of others.

    4. NotARealManager*

      I realize I have a bias as someone who runs warm, but colder people can always put on more clothes (jacket, cardigan, longer pants, another layer, etc.). There’s only so much you can do to cool off in an environment that’s too hot. 73 is already warm for an office with multiple bodies moving around in it. They need to shut the window and bring an office jacket if they’re cold, regardless of the season.

      FWIW, my office feels cooler in the morning when the AC is most effective, so I wear a light cardigan to work over top of my summer dress. When it warms up in the afternoon, I can take it off.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        This is where I land, and one of the reasons I’m not that keen on summer. When it’s cold, you can always put on another sweater or blanket, but when it’s hot (it’s been miserable here lately–well over 30 degrees and humid most days) you can only get so naked.

        FWIW, on those days when I go into the office, I am sweating in my lab coat and I see other people sitting at their desks wrapped in a blanket.

      2. WantonSeedStitch*

        I run cooler, and I agree with you. It’s not hard for me to bring in a wrap or cardigan or something. Someone who runs hot can only take off so many layers and still be business-appropriate.

      3. Nightengale*

        Yes I can put on more clothes. I wear a sweater and sometimes knee socks in the summer in the office. Unfortunately that doesn’t help how cold my nose and ears get in the air conditioning. I mean, for my ears and nose I guess I could also wear a wool hat and scarf indoors in July? There has to be a happy medium.

    5. Tree*

      I’m sympathie to the struggle. My office has been very humid during the heatwave the past few days as the AC couldn’t keep up. Yesterday the temps outside were merely 90 degrees (instead of 100) and the office was comfortable. After lunch, two senior people declared they were cold and out on space heaters. It was awful. My face flushed badly and I felt unwell even after I got home.

      1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

        Oh dear. If this continues to be a thing, can you invoke it as a medical issue? (Also “only” 90 degrees, yikes.)

      2. dulcinea47*

        I’m shocked that space heaters are allowed, everyplace I’ve worked they get majorly upset about the energy use and fire hazard.

        1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

          I agree, facilities/health and safety may want to know about any unauthorized heaters.

          1. Tree*

            It’s a very small and very toxic company. I’m giving notice on Monday since I got a new job!!! I just need to get through the next two weeks.

    6. Qwerty*

      Yeah, its a jerk move to tell people they are in the wrong for wearing summer clothes in summer while setting the office to non-summer temperatures that not environmentally friendly. It can be impossible to dress for work when the walk across the parking lot has you drenched in sweat but people in the office want to pretend it isn’t summer.

      One of the big issues with cold offices is that the AC runs constantly and constantly blows the cold air on people. Its like the windchill factor in weather reports. Think of it like rapid cooling a bottle of wine – there are machines at wine stores where it swirls regular cold water and chills the bottle in 3-7 minutes. However putting that same bottle in a fridge will take hours to chill the bottle, despite the fridge being colder.

      It has been 90-100 degrees for the past month. Many people in my office wear winter sweaters during the workday while the thermostat claims it is 72 degrees.

      1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

        Yeah – I have brought in an actual thermometer that’s currently registering the temperature at 73 – I’m not going off what the thermostat is set to.

        I’m sensitive to cold air as well – I worked with people who insisted on setting it at 64, and I was so ill all that summer from the shock of going outside/inside.

    7. Angstrom*

      The OSHA recommended range for office temperatures is 68-76F.
      You’ll never make everyone happy.
      I don’t like overcooling in the summer. That said, it is much easier to add a layer than to try to stay cool in an office that is too hot.

      1. Dry Cleaning Enthusiast*

        OK good to know. 76 is fine for me, but I’m not sure if that’ll be warm enough for shorts for them. Sounds like a group discussion is in order next.

        1. Filosofickle*

          I keep my house at 73 and wear shorts! I think that’s a good temp for summer clothes, especially if I’m working or moving around.

    8. Undone Spragg*

      It’s reasonable to expect an office to be cooler than outside, and it can’t be that hard to bring in a jacket to keep in the office and put it on over outside clothing. There is a lot of pressure on some women to dress a certain way, however.

      I do want to push back on the idea that every cold person finds it easier to warm up than every hot person finds it to cool down. Pre-menopause I was freezing in every summer office, despite multiple layers. When people would ask me, (based on my clothing I think) “Are you really that cold?”, I would just reach out and touch their hand with my hand, and they would say, “You are FREEZING.” My hands felt like they were just out of a fridge all summer. But I never opened windows.

      Nowadays there is technology available to both sides of the spectrum if it’s really bad. There are heated vests and jackets for people like me, and cooling vests for people who need them. None of them are super stylish, and the heated vests last longer and are easier to recharge than the cooling vests, but if it’s a huge problem for you and you can’t resolve it any other way, look into what might help you feel comfortable.

      People who open windows should be reported to maintenance.

    9. Girasol*

      Is there a chance that swapping places between employees on the sunny side and the shady side of the office, or nearer/farther from the chiller vent, could help? My coworkers complained the office wasn’t cool enough when it felt like a refrigerator. Turned out there was a chiller vent right over my desk but the office was so big that the cool air wasn’t reaching the far end, where cubicles really were overly warm.

    10. TooDarnHot*

      Most building codes recommend 68-72F. There are always people who want it to bea lot warmer, but the systems aren’t designed to operate at temps in the high 70s or low 80s.

      I will start getting physically I’ll at around 73-74. If it’s much higher than that for any length of time I will be non-functional.

      In most offices I’ve worked in the make it warmer crowd is very vocal, but if you have a decent facilities staff they’ll likely say no.

  58. Cheezmouser*

    Are you supposed to pay for gifts for colleagues out of your personal budget or should work reimburse you? Things like buying a colleague a gift card for their birthday, holidays, etc.

    I’m a senior individual contributor on a team with no direct reports. My assistant (who reports to another contributor on the team and supports both of us) has a birthday coming up. I’d like to get her a gift card. Does that come out of my own money?

    1. Sneaky Squirrel*

      Your employer may have a policy on gift giving, but if so then be aware that there may be tax consequences. Many gifts to an employee have to be included as income in the US, not sure about other countries. It’s very likely though that your employer would be expected that any gifts for birthdays, holidays, etc. come out of your own pocket.

    2. ferrina*

      Depends on the company. My work wouldn’t reimburse for a birthday gift, and holiday gifts are sent from the company, not individual managers. But they do reimburse for certain approved expenses, like some small recognition awards and the occasional team building lunch (which you might be able to coincidentally schedule for her birthday?)

      But likely this will need to come from your money.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      In the government absolutely it would come out of pocket. If she supports two of you, recommend you suggest you do something together.

    4. M2*

      The only time I know of when a company pays for a gift is when someone retired or is leaving after significant service.

      I have a team and I give them gifts out of my own pocket.

      I think it would be a nice gesture to get your assistant something -a small gift card is fine, but you should cover it personally.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve always bought cards for folks out of my own pocket. I don’t tend to give actual gifts, except the occasional nice chocolate bar as a thank you to the folks who help cover my job when I travel.

    6. Cordelia*

      yes it comes out of your own money. birthday gifts for colleagues are not a business expense. There is no “supposed to pay for gifts…” – it’s up to you whether you give a birthday gift, that is your personal decision, and if you choose to do so you need to pay.

    7. PotatoRock*

      What’s the culture around birthday gifts at your office in general? At mine, a personal birthday gift would be a little unusual. Maybe just a card?

    8. GythaOgden*

      It will depend on your firm. I wouldn’t expect a company to pay for voluntary gifts that they don’t mandate you to give, however.

  59. Pink Flamingo*

    I applied to a position at a smallish organization (~100 people) a few months ago and made it to the final round of interviews. Some light stalking led me to the person who was hired, who has a VERY different background and skill set from me, to the point where I can’t even figure out how we were both under consideration. So I think I just didn’t have the background they were looking for, but I have no reason to think I wasn’t a culture fit or anything like that. Fast forward to now, and a somewhat related position has opened up. It’s in a different department (with, I believe, a different hiring manager) but a sort of related role within the organization. I’d like to apply. My question is, should I reference the previous position in some way? I feel like it’s a bit odd not to mention it, but I’m also not sure what I would even say. Presumably there’s some kind of note in their ATS that tells them I’ve been in consideration before? Help, I’m being awkward about this!

    1. MsM*

      I think you could say something along the lines of that you were really impressed by what you saw of the organization while interviewing for the other role, and you’d love the opportunity to work with them in this capacity. (Make sure you emphasize why you see this new position as a good fit, of course.)

    2. Cordelia*

      I don’t think you need to reference that you have applied before – what would this achieve? It’s a different department, a different manager. They might or might not know that you applied before, but I don’t see that it matters, it’s not a point for or against you. Treat this as a new application.

    3. ronda*

      if you were in the final round of interviewing, I think that hiring manager at least liked you a little.

      Use it as a ‘networking’ contact for the other job. something along the lines of thanks for considering for the last job. you see that there is ‘new position’ open. would they be able to give you any insight into if this position may be a fit for you.

      apply anyway if you are interested in the job, but it may give you addl info or the previous hiring mgr may give good opinion to new hiring manager. It is also possible that they might give some negative feedback, but they might do that anyway if they notice that same person is applying.

  60. BellaStella*

    For all those job searching best of luck this next week for getting an offer, getting an interview, or getting your first paycheck in your new role! This week I got a rejection from a job I applied to in November, that the role was cancelled. I am also hoping to hear next week about a job that is internal. Sending all of you good vibes!

  61. Anon for this one*

    I know you typically shouldn’t mention your current pay in salary negotiations for a new role, but what if the new role pays less than your current role and has a higher title? The top end of the range is 11% less than my current base salary and 22% less if I assume I’ll receive my full bonus at my current role. For reasons, I’m willing to take the pay cut if all else is equal, though ideally better. Is it worth mentioning the role is a pay cut in negotiations or should I just focus on what the role (and me in it) should be worth? Market data is all over the place, so they’re not completely out of touch with the market at it is now so it’s not the strongest argument. Unfortunately, I’ve seen salaries for my job title drop significantly over the past year.

    1. ferrina*

      This is a rare case where you can bring up your current pay.

      They may not be able to make up the whole difference, but you can say “I would actually need to take a pay cut to work here, as my current salary is $X. If you could come up to $X-a, that would make the decision a lot easier for me.”

  62. BellaStella*

    Now to ask for advice: what would you do if this scenario came up? As you can see from my post above I am job searching. In the meantime, how would you handle this? In my review my manager (we are at HQ) says my role is going to be cut way back on a project, as it is a project that needs to be based in another country (where donor is located). Reader, I am 100% funded for the next 3 years in this role…and the guy who does nothing here at HQ, he is in the budget too, as are a comms person, my grandboss, and 2 others will still have funding, and all are in HQ. I raised the issue with a director that I secured this grant, work well with the partners and donor (they really like my work and I deliver), am not ok being pushed out (as much other funding ends in March 2025)….and have not heard back. Approaches are welcome. yes I am looking for a new role.

  63. Name name neame*

    I’m considering a job offer with very reduced benefits from what I have now, and trying to figure out how to determine equivalent values to replace some of them, if anyone has suggestions.
    – accumulated sick time. I have about 6 months of banked sick time. Is there some kind of insurance I could purchase that would provide something similar?
    – good health insurance. Can you price shop for good health insurance without sending a ton of personal info to an exchanges? How do I easily see if something is roughly equivalent to what I have now?
    – pension. This one makes me feel most insane for even considering

    1. Banana Pyjamas*

      This sounds extremely risky; are you sure this is what you want?

      For insurance, consider national average cost and adjust pay up accordingly.

      My personal experience with the insurance marketplace was…not good. Our state automatically applies to Medicaid on your behalf. You can only get marketplace insurance if Medicaid denies you. Medicaid approved us even though we don’t qualify. We have a $3700/person/per month deductible before Medicaid pays, and we can’t buy insurance through the marketplace because we “qualify” for Medicaid. We’re essentially uninsured.

      Please don’t mess around on insurance.

    2. WellRed*

      For the first, if I understand correctly what you are asking, maybe look into Aflac or something similar? For the second, are you saying the new job doesn’t offer insurance? In that case, run away. The pension: do you have one at your current job? How far are you from retirement?

      1. Name name neame*

        Potential job offers 70% insurance reimbursement up to some max I forget at the moment. But I have trouble imagining any individual insurance would be as good as huge group insurance.

        I currently have a pension, and am vested so will get something from it when I retire based on my number of years of service. I’m about 20+ years from retirement.

        I love and value the stability where I am, but am not excited about doing the same thing for the next 20 years. There’s some small room for growth here, but at much higher stress, less work life balance, more political bs, and not much more $. So trying to figure out if there’s a number that would make the tradeoffs for new and more interesting work worth it. And there really might not be (not the worst problem to have I know)

    3. ronda*

      healthcare dot gov will give you quotes for 2024 plans -you are eligible outside of open enrollment if you lose your job.
      you dont need to enter your personal info to get the quotes on there. age, sex, tobacco use, zip code are the things I remember being required. Income if you want them to calculate the subsidy amount (probably not a possibility if you worked for 1/2 of year).
      I personally only really look at the premium and out of pocket max for total possible cost. I had a surgery and hit the out of pocket max in 2023, but that is the only year I did. I do pay more for my other appointments, but I dont really have too many of those.
      — unlike the other person, I have had a positive experience on the exchange, both in WA and GA with Kaiser as the provider.
      But if you have health insurance thru an employer, you generally can’t get it from the marketplace, so I assume you are just wondering about pricing in your area.

      a pension could be replaced by an annuity…… but most folks seem to say just investing your money will have better returns than annuity. But you can price some out if you are interested.

      I haven’t heard about ‘sick time’ insurance. the closest thing I can think of is disability insurance. There is Short Term and Long Term insurance. They have waiting periods , a % of income they will cover, taxable and non-taxable benefits versions, so there is quite a bit of research to do about what exactly you need. (and large employers often offer this)

  64. Frustrated Mentor*

    I posted on an open thread a few weeks ago about a junior employee I’ve been training. Thanks to the helpful comments, combined with some urgent issues that arose from the junior employee’s incompetence the same day I posted (which meant that I had to work a lot of overtime fixing his mistakes over the weekend, and it wasn’t the first time I’d had to do that), I brought up the issue with management on the following Monday. Apparently I wasn’t the first one to have issues with this guy, so my boss decided it was time to escalate things to my grandboss. That same week, the junior employee somehow continued to screw up worse and worse, and I’m pretty sure the project manager for our shared project had lost all respect for junior by the end of the week. He wasn’t only struggling to learn the basic skills needed for this job, but he was struggling with professional norms too. I’m pretty sure he won’t last much longer in the role (I’m guessing they’ll give him a PIP before firing) or at the very least, I won’t have to work with him as much from now on, and that’s a huge relief for me!

  65. Patience NotReally*

    What would you do if your ***higher-up*** colleague is nice but seemingly information-hoards, is somewhat disorganized, and virtually impossible to reach for questions, and never provides key briefing points on time? And your boss shrugs and says ‘deal with it’ while you really try hard not to lose it, since you’ve done everything in your power on your end but this person is at times the single point of failure? And has been with the company a decade with plans to stay even longer? Very nice, but their work habits……..oh man.

    1. ferrina*

      Wow, that’s super frustrating. Unfortunately, not much you can do. I guess you just need to contingency plan based on the information you do have, and if necessary, delay the project. Sometimes you can find work-arounds; I found that a certain group of VPs at OldJob would never actually hit a deadline, but would always get things done by 2weeks after the deadline. So in my planning, I always had the initial due date (that I knew the VPs would miss), then a secondary due date two weeks later that I knew all the VPs would make. I never told the VPs the secondary due date (I would just gently remind them and beg them to get the thing turned in), but it made it so much easier to let other contributors know when to expect things.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I can commiserate.

      My only piece of advice: redefine the word ‘nice’. This person isn’t nice – they aren’t considerate of others’ needs, they aren’t working collaborativelyetc. They may sound nice, and they may act nice, but they aren’t actually nice.

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        Yeah, there is definitely a difference between being “nice” and being “pleasant”. Nice people go out of their way to help you. Pleasant people are pleasant to your face, but may be very passive-aggressive and try to stab you in the back.

        This person isn’t nice.

  66. Qwerty*

    What is a more work-appropriate way to tell people “your job/boss sucks and isn’t going to change”.

    It’s my favorite line from this blog because it gets you past the feelings and into the practicality of the situtation. Its a great way to move past complaining about the job is not what you want it to be, and figure out how to interact with the job you have. I give this as advice to friends and mentees and they’ve found it helpful.

    But at work – I’m a leader. I can’t say the job sucks. And our company is actually pretty good. But people get really focused on wanting to change how our top execs do things rather than figuring out how to work within the system we have. Sometimes the people I want to say this to report to me. Thoughts?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      “I understand you wish things worked like X. I appreciate you sharing this and have passed on this feedback, but I can tell you that this is not something that will change. Given that, the best way to do this in our current systems is Y”

      1. Peanut Hamper*

        This is how I was trained to do it. You acknowledge what they said in a way that means you heard and understood them, give them a note of appreciation for sharing, and then acknowledge that this thing won’t change. Providing an alternative is a good follow-up.

      2. Saving PDFs Not Lives*

        Yes, I received this kind of feedback in just about these exact words, and found it helpful in changing my perspective as you’ve described. I also heard advice from a manager at the time that while they were working to change this, it would be a long process, and they didn’t expect to see big results for more than a year, etc.

        1. Blah*

          I’ve had a manager try to give me this feedback, but instead of expressing appreciation she’d talk about how I’m “just not like the rest of the team who handles change better.”

    2. ferrina*

      Do you work at my company? Because certain people have spent so. much. time trying to argue with the execs rather than focusing on their jobs. It’s infuriating, and the execs can’t actually do anything because they have to put so much time into soothing feelings and convincing people to do things.

      But thank you for what you are trying to do! There’s several scripts that I’ve used:
      “I hear your concerns, but let’s try it this way first. I want to give it couple months test run, then I’ll ask for your feedback and see how it’s working and adjust accordingly” (this is usually when it’s a system I’ve designed, where the concerns are “but it’s new and different!” And I do follow up with people in a couple months)

      “I hear you, and I’m not saying I disagree. But this is one of those things where we need to go with their decision. If it causes more than 5 minute delay*, let me know and we can figure out next steps.”
      *or whatever is reasonable. Basically setting a standard of what is a tolerable amount of inconvenience.

      “I hear you, but that’s not going to be changing right now. Right now, the company is focused on X, and that’s where a lot of the resources are going to be going. Once X is launched, we can re-evaluate” Useful when there’s a tight deadline or major initiative getting kicked off.

      “I hear you, but this is what Execs have said. This is their job to determine this sort of thing, and while I’ve shared my opinion, I also am not privy to all the same information as the executives. I know [Well-Liked Executive] well enough that I trust their decision on this. But we’ve talked about this enough, and we really need to get to [Other Work Topic]…” This has been when I’m frustrated by the constant complaints, and when it seems like the complaints are more about general frustrations on the company not being exactly what they want.

    3. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      “It would be nice if we could get X to do Y. But they’re not going to, so knowing that, we need to do Z.”

    4. WantonSeedStitch*

      “We’re not going to be able to stop the execs from doing X and Y. What IS within our control is Z, and I think if we focus on that, we’ll actually be able to accomplish something worthwhile.”

    5. The Unionizer Bunny*

      And our company is actually pretty good.

      Pro tip: if you have to say this, and people keep trying to change things, it really isn’t that good.

      Your sentiments make you look sympathetic, but your goal is to make people simply accept the status quo as something they are powerless to change (for the better). They aren’t, and if you can’t redirect their collaborative energies into figuring out how to best follow orders, they’ll start figuring out how to make upper management negotiate over operating procedures.

      C-suite often makes decisions that are out-of-touch with the people who actually do the work, and this can throw everything into chaos. Are top execs switching things up every few months when they come across a new miracle technique, or have employees been trying to change a long-standing status quo?

      If it’s the former, upper management has an opportunity to learn how contracts work in the real world – not by unilaterally renegotiating whenever they feel like it (and at-will employees have to decide whether to quit over it), but by thinking of what they really are willing to live with in the long term, and then making a firm commitment where they have to pay penalties if they try to create new rules without getting other parties to sign off on it first.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        I’d argue this is a YVMV situation actually. No one likes their job all the time and grumbling happens; sometimes the view from the floor is missing important context that makes decisions from higher ups reasonable. There may be a red flag here, agreed, but it is also possible to take the commenter at their word and assume the company generally is decent and has whatever foibles it has as part of a reasonable status quo.

    6. Goldie*

      I would never say this to someone else, but I have said it to myself and it helped. “No one cares what I think”.

      I know it sounds depressing but it’s kind of liberating to not need to form an opinion when my opinion doesn’t matter. I used to ruminate on things at work and now I just stick to my job.

    7. I Have RBF*

      “The job and management are what they are, and are unlikely to change. The best thing to do is figure out the system as it is and how you can work within it.”

      One thing I often state in interviews is that “All companies have their flaws, being run by humans. As long as I know what they are, I can work within the system.” It’s a bit of a screener comment; if they deny any flaws, then they are either lying to themselves or to me, and the place is probably a dumpster fire. Most people just chuckle and say “Yep. We have ours, but they are relatively minor.”

      Or, when it comes to question time “All companies have their flaws. What is the biggest one here that you see, and how do you deal with it?”

      This is because, while a thing may not be ideal, it usually still can be worked with, and knowing what those things are and how to deal with them signifies at least some organizational awareness on the part of the interviewers.

      YMMV, of course. But run away from people who say they are perfect.

  67. Too many references?*

    What’s a reasonable amount of references to request? My partner has provided 4 to a company including most recent prior boss, and the company is asking for more. The references that have been spoken to have indicated they provided great references. This seems extensive.

      1. ferrina*

        Yep. 3 is the norm that I’ve seen, 4 or 5 is a nice to have, but more than 5 is ridiculous.

    2. I should really pick a name*

      I’d need to go back about 15 years to get 4 professional references (and there’s no guarantee they’d remember me).

      And asking for more after speaking to a few seems weird to me unless there were problems.

      1. References*

        You didn’t work with more than 3 people who’d give you a reference? They don’t all have to be bosses…

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Were they able to contact all four? If they require a certain number, say three, and only two of the four were reachable, asking for more might make sense. But I agree with others that if they were all contacted that should be plenty.

    4. Too many references?*

      Thanks all! Turns out one had unexpected personal issues going on and was unreachable. Context might have been helpful for the request though.

  68. leakyceiling*

    We have an ongoing leak in our office ceiling, right above the lunch table in the kitchen. We’re in between office managers at the moment, but even when we had one, all that could be done was ask the super to come look at it.

    Building management seems to be refusing to try to source the problem, though it should be easy as we’re on the ground floor. Because it’s not a ceiling leak, it happens all the time, not just when it’s raining. The water that comes out is brown.

    I am usually not squeamish, but I am becoming really resentful of having to come to the office knowing that there has to be mold growing in the ceiling and unhealthful liquid making our lunch space / kitchen gross and the table unusable.

    Our head of HR and even the owner of the company knows about this but it seems like they are also unsure of what to do. I have already mentioned my mold concerns once. Is there anything else I can do to impress upon them the importance of this situation? At some point this will be a lease violation by the building owners but I’m afraid that if TPTB don’t realize what a big deal this is, they will just let it be.

    TIA!

      1. mreasy*

        The building owners haven’t done anything and the internet isn’t telling me if this rises to OSHA level. But I’ll look into that. It’s likely lead pipes because it’s a converted factory building.

      2. mreasy*

        Q though – will MY company get in trouble if I report to OSHA? I know they have been doing what they can to try to get it done, but we’re being stonewalled by the building owners & staff.

    2. WellRed*

      I’m curious what’s on the second floor and whether you’ve gone up there to investigate. I don’t think this is an OSHA matter.

      1. mreasy*

        It’s an apartment building with ground-floor commercial, so it’s someone’s (expensive, luxury) apartment above us – the super / building management seemingly go up there all the time to investigate but they claim it’s impossible to find the problem.

          1. mreasy*

            It seems that way, right? I do wonder if part of it is that they don’t want the upstairs residents to know that the building has plumbing issues, given how monstrously expensive their apartments are.

            1. WellRed*

              Find a way to let the tenants know. “We weren’t sure if you knew, but there’s water leaking into our space.” Wealthy tenants don’t like to be ignored

    3. RagingADHD*

      Office managers don’t have special powers other than being a (polite and professional) pest to TPTB, and / or befriending the super to get them to talk about why it isn’t being fixed.

      When I was an office manager, basically my job was to be whatever the friendly version of a Karen is, as far up the food chain as I had to go, until stuff got done. Someone has to:

      – call the building management office every day for a report on the status of the repair,
      – ask who the contractor is who has been retained to fix it,
      – go upstairs and talk to the office(s) above you, ask them if they are also affected, and ask them to call and talk to building management (or drop their names that you’ve been talking to them),
      – call the super every single day to come clean up the water and ask them again about when it will be fixed and who is supposed to fix it
      – if the management office is onsite, physically walk down there and lean on the reception desk to say, “Hey, I just wanted to follow up on my call to Betty about this water leak…”
      – call the building owners and ask them how we can facilitate this repair which has been needed since X and presents a significant health and hygiene problem
      – if a contractor name is provided, call the contractor and ask them about when the repair is scheduled and what we need to do to facilitate it (such as moving furniture, providing after hours access, etc)

      I mean, just being a constant, unavoidable, smiling, upbeat noodge in any direction you can possibly find until something gives. The most likely explanation is that someone who has the physical ability to fix it is blocked by someone who has to grant some kind of permission and can’t be bothered to read the email because the leak isn’t their problem. So you become their (very friendly) problem.

      1. RagingADHD*

        From your update comment above, I would not go the apartment occupant where the leak is apparently coming from – at first – .

        I would, however, start asking the building management if they can pass my contact information to the tenants in all the units in a direct line above me, so we can work together to coordinate this repair. This is alerting them that I’m going to go there if they don’t, without coming right out and saying it.

        And if they refused, or the occupant did not contact me, I would later move on to leaving a note on the occupant’s door or looking up their phone number and calling them. I would also ask my superior about mailing the occupant a letter (not any kind of demand, but a “hey, in case you are not aware, there is a leak in your walls/ floor and you are probably getting mold, so let’s work together to make management get it fixed.”

        1. mreasy*

          It sounds like you’re totally right on this (I have been a facility manager at a factory and had some similar issues that required that kind of persistence too!) The problem is I don’t think anyone has the bandwidth to do that until we have a new Office Manager. Or at least the people whose jobs it could possibly be haven’t been doing it. Our old Office Manager didn’t have much success despite follow-ups, but the problem was much less frequent than it has become since she’s left – it’s definitely now the type of thing that would warrant daily/multi-daily contact.

          1. RagingADHD*

            Well, your options are to ride herd on the list of people I mentioned, or ride herd on the folks in your office whose job it is.

            There isn’t a way for you to change this situation without committing any time or effort to it, or talking to *someone,* so if your disgust isn’t motivating you enough to take action, your other option is to put up with it and wait until someone else does something.

    4. Jaydee*

      Is there a department in your city or county that inspects commercial buildings? That could be a route to go. Your company could also speak to a lawyer about options for taking action against the landlord/property owner for breach of the lease. I’m guessing there’s something in there about their obligation to keep the property in decent repair.

  69. NF*

    How much control can a nonprofit board exert over how employees publicly discuss a contentious ongoing project-whether this extends to limiting/shutting down discussion or they can prescribe what employees have to say (In the US)

    1. mreasy*

      IANAL but I am pretty sure you can require them to not speak publicly about it at all, or if they do to use exactly the language you dictate.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Yeah, a nonprofit board definitely has the power to issue that kind of directive. They might have a good reason, too: they don’t want rumors (or actual true news) circulating in the community, whether related to worker dissension, financial issues, difficulties meeting their project goals, or whatever. If rumors or news gets out, they risk losing funders, political support, their overall reputation, etc. As in any company, though, the board has to weigh the opposing concerns of protecting the organization versus treating the employees in a heavy-handed way.

      Are you asking as a board member or an employee?

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          As an employee, yeah, he has to follow the rules and directives that the board hands down. Ultimately they are his boss as they are the directors of the organization. Also, keep in mind that the board has a legal duty to act in the best interests of the organization, which would include trying to make sure that incorrect, incomplete, or outright damaging information doesn’t get out to the public until or unless the board can control how and when it gets out. Hopefully they’re doing so in a way that is respectful to the employees.

          Keep in mind that a lot of smaller non-profits have a lot of board members who are inexperienced, are not putting a lot of hours every month into their board work, and are not always super knowledgeable about what they’re doing. They tend to be passionate volunteers, not business management experts. That said, they may have more information about the issue than your father has — another reason to try to keep employees from speaking about the project outside of work, since he doesn’t necessarily see the whole picture.

          Best of luck to your father.

      2. The Unionizer Bunny*

        they don’t want rumors (or actual true news) circulating in the community, whether related to worker dissension,

        That sounds like a terrible way to lose funders, political support, and their overall reputation.

        Employees who are seeking support from others (about their working conditions) may communicate with people outside the workplace. They may talk to your customers and clients. They may talk to the media. And if the Board tells employees they can’t, those directors will be on their way to a hearing before a federal administrative judge. (Pro tip: settle.) (This is not a legal tip, I am not your attorney. I care about the people who want to see this nonprofit succeed, and it’s likely they do care about it as more than a paycheck, since for-profits offer bigger paychecks.)

        As for specifying exactly what employees must say to outsiders – wow. Coerced speech is even worse than silenced speech. These, uh, sources of funding – they don’t include federal grants, do they? (Look up whether grant recipients act as part of the federal government in regards to 1st Amendment violations. Or, if the Board has already done this, ask the government if being federally-funded brings with it constitutional liability.)

        Whistleblower laws may apply, just to add another factor to this mess. I would like to hear more about what kind of information this employee is considering sharing about a project, and what actions (if any) the nonprofit has taken to control dissemination. Trade secret laws may apply. It’s definitely worth exploring options, though. Just remember that communications may need to meet certain conditions to be protected – don’t rush out to talk just because you read here “it’s possible”.

        1. EmployeeAgreements*

          Huh? It’s pretty normal in all industries for companies to have proprietary or other types of information they don’t want shared outside the company. Employees are very much bound by these agreements, although there are a few circumstances where they’re likely to be struck down instead.

        2. GythaOgden*

          I think you may not have experience in the same workplaces that I do, but it would be pretty normal for us to be under some sort of embargo. I don’t circulate socially in places where that would be an issue, but the more senior you are, the more likely it is to be an issue. Certainly during a UK election a public sector org can’t make any major pronouncements because it could influence voting patterns, and also anyone ringing up from the press has to be redirected to communications. It’s pretty standard, in other words, not to talk too loudly about private matters, and if it makes you feel better about it, it could apply, say, to PII of yours being kept private rather than thought of as public property.

          Additionally, an adversarial approach like this post and another one upthread are unhelpful to people having to work in the real world and won’t help make many changes anywhere. This isn’t /r/antiwork — we may have strident social opinions but most people here want to work constructively with others.

          1. The Unionizer Bunny*

            I think you may not have experience in the same workplaces that I do,

            Well, no. It sounds like you are in the UK, which has better privacy protections than the US and where, I infer, “nonprofit” means “public sector”?
            https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/jurisdictional-standards

            As a practical matter, the Board’s jurisdiction is very broad and covers the great majority of non-government employers with a workplace in the United States, including non-profits,

            OP said “nonprofit” and “In the US”, but I didn’t see “public sector”. As for seniority I read “employee” as “not management”, though managers are employed by the nonprofit.

            From “employees publicly discuss a contentious ongoing project” I took that employees would be discussing with each other a work project that was “contentious”. I guessed these discussions might be on social media, since that’s the easiest way for their discussions to be visible to the public. I’m also familiar with “contentious” projects from news over the past few years about, for instance, A.I. crime-recognition services which are known for racial bias. Employees have been upset at their companies for building systems that disproportionately harm minorities – and for not including anyone in leadership (or on the teams building those systems) representatives of the groups most affected. This last would make the discussion about their work conditions, though of course this chain is all highly speculative – but the rights are not limited to only similar situations, I’m just giving an example of circumstances where the fact-pattern fits what we know and the NLRA would have applied.

            Worker dissension is the type of rumor (or fact) that I singled out as a problem for employers to try to suppress. They can have NDA’s if they like, but if those contracts even implicitly discourage employees from discussing their working conditions inside or outside the company, and don’t include an explicit exception for Section 7 rights, they are already unlawful and employees may exercise those rights without waiting for a judge to strike down the agreement.

            Additionally, an adversarial approach like this post and another one upthread

            Can you post a reply there explaining what you think is adversarial? Every other reply on this thread has been supportive of restricting discussion.

        3. Glomarization, Esq.*

          I think you’re reading a heck of a lot into “a contentious project”. The OP didn’t say this was a unionizing effort (where the employee’s speech does bear some protection), and there wasn’t any context given, but I definitely didn’t read the question as “my father is trying to unionize his non-profit organization and the board is telling the workers that they may not talk about it”. Along those lines, I also didn’t read anything into the OP’s comment that suggested a whistleblower-level problem, but, again, there wasn’t much context there.

          In any event, even a federal employee can be legally bound by employer speech restrictions. The ACLU has a great guide that is googleable under the search terms free speech fed employees kyr.

          1. The Unionizer Bunny*

            The OP didn’t say this was a unionizing effort (where the employee’s speech does bear some protection),

            Ah. Your wording here implies that you believe employee speech isn/t protected until a unionizing effort has begun, and this is a popular misconception, so I want to address it in-depth:

            https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/whats-law
            Focus on the “Concerted activity” and “Social media” sections. For a (far) more detailed explanation, see
            https://plaintiffmagazine.com/recent-issues/item/using-the-nlra-to-enforce-the-rights-of-non-union-employees

            TLDR; if “employees” (plural) are discussing their working conditions, it’s protected. Even if they aren’t in the union. Even if nobody where they work is in a union. Even if nobody is trying to get them to unionize. Even if they don’t want to be part of a union. The courts regard “concerted activity” as conditions naturally leading to unions, and therefore protect it. In fact, under the “inherently concerted activity” doctrine, even a single employee will always be regarded as engaging in “concerted” activity despite not aiming their comments towards “mutual aid or protection”.

            Employers are prohibited from interfering with concerted activities even when the employees weren’t aware of the interference and didn’t know they should have those rights. (They don’t need to; anyone can report NLRA violations, even without standing, because the law is enforced by a government agency – there is no private cause of action.) An objective “reasonable person” standard is used by the NLRB to evaluate whether a company policy would have interfered with someone who wanted to exercise their protected rights. The same objectivity identifies activity as “concerted” even if employees weren’t consciously thinking of it that way at the time.

            I also didn’t read anything into the OP’s comment that suggested a whistleblower-level problem, but, again, there wasn’t much context there.

            In the absence of detail, I prefer to cast a wide net – many employees, when they are just beginning to recognize that something isn’t right, will not have a well-mapped idea of exactly which parts even could be covered by law, and an investigator may eventually find out (and refer it to the appropriate agency), but I don’t like taking the chance that they’ll think “oh, my situation isn’t covered by the exact law you mentioned, so I’ll just give up since apparently it’s legal”. When asking for more detail, I’d like to encourage witnesses to speak up if they have information relevant to any statute potentially protecting their speech.

            If the project has been contentious because employees think it might violate a law (or public policy), they may want to hold wider discussions about it so they can alert the government and/or bring public pressure to bear.

            In any event, even a federal employee can be legally bound by employer speech restrictions.

            And by federal regulations (the Hatch Act comes to mind), but as I said above, I didn’t read “nonprofit” as “government”. Federal employees are also outside the jurisdiction of the NLRA, but the FSLMRS reads close enough that I think they’d enjoy the same protections. (I’ll have to read some cases at FLRA.gov to be sure. My reading has been more in the NLRB.gov archives.)

            1. TunnelVision*

              Surely this only applies to discussions of working conditionsamonb employees? That did not seem to be what OP asked about, at least not soecifically. They asked about publicly discussing information the company told them was not to be discussed publicly. The vast majority of things I’ve worked on in the past 30+ years fall into that category, at least while I’m working on them (and some ongoing even once completed), and none have a thing to do with anything related to working conditions.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Since you can be fired for any reason at most jobs in the USA, I would assume they can assert any amount of control that they want. However, the only punishment they can met out is firing you. I do know some types of speech are protected in certain contexts, but I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t want to give legal advice.

  70. Voluntold*

    This year I’m the head of the committee that’s in charge of organizing our annual (one-day) staff retreat, and I’m stumped for ideas. Our most recent retreat was pre-COVID, and for the two years I worked here prior to that, we’ve done a boat tour of the local bay and an afternoon at an arcade followed by a baseball game. We’re a small group of about 15, with varying mobility levels (one employee just had a knee replacement but should be back in the office before this will take place). Our office is relocating so I thought something to get to know the new area might be fun, but besides the arcade we’ve already been to it looks like a lot of the area attractions/museums are seasonal and may not be open.

    1. heckofabecca*

      The seasonal museums might offer off-season private tours/etc—check the websites? Just keep in mind that not all seasonal museums are equipped for non-summer weather/temps.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Cooking class: I like the kind where you go to a culinary school or community college that has multiple small kitchens and all of the materials and food for people to follow along, rather than just a private chef demonstrating how to make a dish to an audience.

      Is there a community center/college/university near you that might offer one-time classes in fun topics like music history, ceramics, watercolor painting, cake decorating, etc.?

      I a big plant nerd so… botanical garden or arboretum that can do a tour and/or class.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        if a cooking class isn’t available — a guided tasting of some kind: wine, cheese, chocolate, olive oil, beer, coffee, tea…

        If there aren’t any guided classes… could you do a business version of a pub crawl? Visit 4-5 restaurants to get to know the new area… one for appetizers, one for soup/salad, one for entree, one for dessert, one for coffee… hire a van/limo/bus company to do all the driving.

    3. Emperor Kuzco*

      It’s not an all-day event, but mini-golf doesn’t require a lot of mobility or athleticism, so that could be an option.

    4. Warrior Princess Xena*

      Do you have any sort of activities center nearby? One of my prior office’s better staff retreats was the day we went to the local activities center that had axe-throwing, pinball golf, VR headset games, and laser tag. All were optional, with nice big tables to rest at between activities if desired. And a big spread of food and drinks. It felt like a good spread of activities across all levels of “I want to get up and run around”.

  71. Banana Pyjamas*

    What do typing tests for jobs usually entail? I ask because I type at least 20 WPM slower when there’s a lot of visual processing such as game like formats or strings of nonsense letters.

    I’ve seen multiple jobs recently that had minimum typing speeds. At least one required applicants to pass the typing test before they were allowed to submit application materials. I wish I had taken it now just so I could have a better idea, but I knew my typing speed was well below the minimum.

    1. RagingADHD*

      The ones I’ve done in recent years have simply been a block of sample text with a window to type it into. If it were nonsense letters, it would be data entry rather than typing / word processing.

      There are lots of free typing practice websites. If it would make you more marketable in your field, spending 10-15 minutes several times a week could really help your speed.

      1. Banana Pyjamas*

        Thanks for sharing your experience! I do really well with the paragraph format. I actually discovered the discrepancy in speed between formats because I started practicing online.

    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      Every typing test I’ve ever done as an applicant involved a few paragraphs of standard text, usually with single line spacing.

    3. Student*

      Usually you can go to an adult school or local job center and get a free, certified test. The ones I’ve taken have been a paragraph or two, as others have described. They’ve given me a practice and taken the best score of three.

  72. Catt with Two T’s*

    I’m in the process of applying to my own job. I’m currently on a temp contract, and several permanent openings in my department were recently advertised. The positions are open to the public, so I may be competing against any number of external or internal candidates.

    I love what I do, and being able to stay in my role long-term would be a dream come true. I’m approaching this with cautious optimism — I was my team’s top performer this year, and my boss, “Bill,” is very supportive of my applying (he is the hiring manager). Still, I know there’s no guarantee I’ll be selected. I’d appreciate any advice about optimizing my application package and/or interviewing for the seat I’m already in.

    I’d also welcome thoughts on how to navigate my interactions with Bill in the meantime. I’m neurodivergent and struggle with anxiety, and right now every day feels like a test (even more so than usual).

    TIA!

    1. Policy Wonk*

      Treat this experience as if you had never met these people before. Make sure to have your application reflect how you meet every requirement listed. Prepare for the interview/answer questions as if they don’t know you or your record. I have heard plenty of stories of people who have been deemed not qualified when they applied for “their own job” because they thought it was theirs and didn’t do a good job on the application process.

      1. Mojo021*

        Definitely this! Go to the interview prepared as if it was a totally new company and position. Continue doing the great job you’re currently doing and don’t change how you interact with your manager. Good luck!

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        That said, if you have reasonable and realistic suggestions on any known problems or pain points, and the opportunity comes up, that can absolutely be worth mentioning.

        When I had to apply and compete with external folks for the position I’d been working in as a temp, I asked, if someone else is selected will I be around long enough to train them to the position or do you have another plan for that? And she was startled and “I never even thought about that.” (Which was quite reassuring to me of course, but I felt also gave a reassurance to her that I am a professional adult and that the position being done properly was important.) I don’t know if it was a good question or not but I did get the job.

    2. AnonymousOctopus*

      See, I take a different tact with the same goal result. I’d leverage all the things you know about the job due to doing it and explicitly spell them out in your cover letter and interview. Talk about relationships/reputation you may have already built with other departments/stakeholders. If your workplace uses a specific software or tool, emphasize that you already know it and *also know how it is used within your company, in the role’s specific context*. Get as many real-world numbers/metrics to prove your track record doing the exact same thing. Emphasize that you can hit the ground running. I’m also neurodivergent and this is what I’ve found works. Best of luck to you, you’ve got this!

  73. Susie Q*

    The Executive Director and I (the #2) are doing a day-long retreat to hash out work topics we never have time for. What are some topics we should discuss? Nonprofit organization.

    1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      This is a pretty broad topic without more information about your org:
      1. evaluate your work flow — from identifying new prospective donors through ongoing donor engagement. Any bottlenecks or duplicated tasks?
      2. calendaring all of your initiatives and events
      3. fundraising strategy — any big initiatives you want to start doing, or deciding to end an initiative because it’s not a good use of resources anymore
      4. grant research and applications
      5. 1 yr, 3 yr, and 5 yr fundraising goals and budgets

  74. Helaena*

    I recently got an AMAZING new boss who I really enjoy working with. She’s knowledgable and supportive, and after struggling through working under her predecessor (who unironically described his approach to management as “Anna Wintour-inspired”), I’m eager to continue our working relationship. There’s just a tiny(?) problem: she refuses to be interrupted.

    Ever.

    At first I thought this was really inspiring, given the number of times men typically speak over women in meetings, but I’ve started to realize she cannot tolerate anyone trying to interject. She’ll even start talking over someone halfway through their OWN thought, so this isn’t specific just to her. Has anyone else worked with someone like this? Possibly relevant: I have auditory processing issues, so if two people are talking at once, my brain struggles to retain anything.

  75. Kickin Rocks*

    How I use ChatGPT in the job search
    1. “Summarize this job description into 3-4 themes or topics” and copy/paste the j.d.. This helps write the cover letter.

    2. “Write situational interview questions for this job description” which gives me a list of questions I can write responses to.

    3. One step further, “Write a STAR method response to the interview question (copy/paste here)”

    None of this will provide exact information for use in an interview. It WILL give you suggestions, scenarios, concepts, and ideas to start your interview prep process.

    I can’t count how many of the suggested questions were asked in an interview, but the prep particularly with the STAR method response has helped me flesh out ideas.

    NEW: I saw STARI – Situation, Task, Action, Response, and IMPROVEMENT on LinkedIn.

  76. I should really pick a name*

    Canadians:

    Have you ever worked for a company that used the term PIP?
    I’ve been wondering if it’s an American term because I’ve never heard it outside of this blog.

    1. Rex Libris*

      Yep. I’m in America and in our workplace it stands for Performance Improvement Plan.

      1. Rex Libris*

        Sorry, I missed the Canadians part, I thought it was just an unfamiliar term. :-)

    2. Canucklehead*

      Canadian here and have worked at at least two places that use PIP as a term. FWIW both are unionized and in industries that have been around for a long while. Also with a history of employing both tradespeople and more “white collar” workers.

      Not sure how that would compare with say tech sector, but I would think public sector, private-sector-unionized places more likely to have a history of heavy documentation for managing someone out.

      1. Government worker*

        Maybe a functional workplace. The local government department I worked for didn’t even do performance evaluations. I’m American and never heard “PIP” until this blog either. It was actually quite shocking to learn that there are places where people can be required to do their job or be fired.

    4. Irish Teacher.*

      I’ve never heard of it outside this blog but whether that is because I’m Irish or because I’m a teacher, which is very much its own little world (I think especially in Ireland; a colleague in the UK seems to have more normal workplace rules), I don’t know.

    5. Alex*

      I’m an American and I’ve never heard PIP officially in the workplace, but maybe that’s just because I’ve never been placed on one or worked in HR or been a manager.

      It’s not the kind of thing people just talk about all the time–it would probably be pretty confidential.

  77. ecnaseener*

    PSA: if you are leaving a job, one of the things to make sure you save to your personal files is the contact info for HR! Don’t be like me -_- I need them to fill out a form and the email address isn’t publicly posted anywhere.

  78. Bend & Snap*

    For people with knowledge of job hunting–does it get better?

    I am 47 and in December, got laid off for the third time in a row. I work in tech. So my resume looks like: Fortune 500 Company 6 years, Fortune 500 company 2 years, well-known company 2 years, 13-month gap, startup 7 months, layoff end of 2023.

    This market is brutal, I’m almost out of money, and I’m getting no bites at all. Resume has been professionally done. I’ve worked every contact I have and then some. I’ve applied for roles outside of tech. I’m not even getting recruiter screens. There are about 3 months between me and homelessness.

    Is this just what it’s like now? Am I too old to hire?

    1. I should really pick a name*

      My first thought:
      Has it been better or worse since your resume was done professionally?

        1. AnonForThisOne*

          Ditch the professional resume and redo it using keywords in job posts you find appealing.

          As for ageism, I know it’s out there but I didn’t experience it.

          I’m 50. I was 49 when I searched for a new position in September 2023 and 50 when I decided that start up was going to fail (it hasn’t hence the anon) and searched for a new position in April 2024. The September search took 3.5 weeks and the April search took 3.

          I know I was lucky…but jobs are out there.

    3. Magpie*

      If you’re worried about age discrimination, make sure your resume doesn’t include any information that gives your age away. If you graduated college 25 years ago, take your graduation year off and just leave the degree. If you have jobs on there from before your 12ish years in tech, take those off the resume. Not saying this is the reason since there are plenty of tech companies out there that care more about experience and abilities than age, but since it’s something you’re worried about it’s something you can try to see if it makes a difference.

      1. Bend & Snap*

        My resume only goes back 12 years, I’m applying for senior roles so sometimes I’ll add on one more job if it calls for more experience.

        I look my age though. Nothing to be done about that. The layoffs aren’t helping.

    4. M2*

      Change up your resume. Rewrite it a few times and send them out and see which ones get traction. Maybe also use AI for a few versions as well. Make a few different copies and see if any stick more than others do. Take your dates off your degrees you received and on some resumes only to last 10-15 years of work on there.

      Look outside of tech. Diversify where you apply and your titles. Apply for roles lower level than you had before.

      What did you do in tech? IT? Look at IT departments in private sector, public, higher ed, etc. Sales? Look at development roles again non-profits, NGOs, higher education (also called advancement in higher ed).

      Try and look at a place that isn’t known for layoffs so you can stay someplace for awhile, maybe be promoted and then move in 3-5 years if you want. Tech pays a lot, so you might have to look to find a decent job with decent pay and benefits but it might not pay what tech paid. I went from private sector to public sector (after the Great Recession) and it was a gut check, but I got used to the salary and changed my lifestyle and ended up being happy and fine.

      Can you attend any conference or do a short certificate that might get you in front of people or give you something that will help you pivot? Good luck.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Government probably won’t come close to meeting your old salaries, but we always need good tech people – only issue is the hiring process takes a long time, particularly if you need a security clearance.

      1. Rex Libris*

        If you’re coming from IT, you could look at public libraries. Most of us have an IT person or department, and are (in my experience anyway) much less worried about age and image than the corporate sector.

    6. sunset*

      I’m a dozen years older than you, and got laid off last year. it took a full year to find a job, and I got it because I had *very niche* software experience they needed. (company was just awarded a contract, and needed warm bodies). I have to move 3000 miles. I am going from start-up culture (which I love) to an established company. Red flags all over the place, but it was the only bite in a year. (To be fair, I could have got another job which paid 30% more, but would require me to move countries. Sadly, due to the tax structure of my country, that was not possible). Good luck finding something.
      But, yeah, an old woman in tech is not favoured.

    7. Qwerty*

      Some thoughts focused on getting you income ASAP. We can get your career / salary back on track later, having a roof is more urgent

      1. Are you working with any recruiters? There are a ton of sourcing firms – reach out to some on LinkedIn. Or they usually are all over the place at any tech Meetup I go to. These are people who will help bring opportunities to you and give you feedback. They tend to have more contract-to-hire than direct hire options, but a contract is still a job.

      2. Can you lower the salary expectations that you list? There is an experience/skillset to salary range consideration that happens. There isn’t really a standard for market rate anymore since its been all of the place the past few years.

      3. Consider non-senior positions that line up with your skillset and working back up to the senior title. The senior title got handed out like candy during the hay day of high salaries in the pandemic, so the market is flooded on senior positions and interviewer are looking more critically at that experience. Being open to going from senior to non-senior shows you are focused on the work over ego and are willing to work on any skill gaps that you may have. It’s usually pretty easy to work your way back up to senior after a year.

      4. Are you on freelance sites like Upwork where you can get paid for small projects? It gives you something you can put on the resume for what you are currently doing and at least get some income coming in

      5. Have you picked up a non-tech job yet? You need something coming in the door, even if it only extends your savings from lasting 3 months to 4months. Almost every grocery store, retail, and fast food join is hiring $15 an hour. Overhearing the interview process is bascially “can you show up reliably and when can you start” You don’t have to list this job on your resume, but it isn’t something you need to hide if it comes in an interview – I’m on the hiring side and the response to candidates who mentioned working at McDonalds to pay the bills was usually positive.

    8. I Have RBF*

      Am I too old to hire?

      I am 63, disabled, and a Linux sysadmin. I started my current job a little over 2 years ago.

      It took me a while, and a lot of applications and rejections to finally get hired. I actually went through an agency.

      I probably applied to at least five jobs a week. I also looked at IT/tech roles in adjacent fields, not just high tech. This was complicated by my wanting to stay remote.

      When I have to go in-person to interviews, I dye my hair purple – it makes me happy and covers the gray. I make sure to keep up on things in the field, including reading things like Hacker News, Wired, and some security blogs. I also cut all but the last 10 to 15 years off of my resume, as well as any graduation dates.

      The one thing that I emphasize is my love of learning new stuff – new tools, languages, methodologies, etc. I am prepared to talk about the last “update” tutorial I did.

      Good luck. It takes longer every year that you are over 40, but you knew that. But it’s not impossible.

    9. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      I’m in tech (data science) and quite close in age, so I share your concern about ageism – it’s definitely real. (Especially at startups). When you say you applied to roles outside tech, does that mean non-tech roles or tech roles at non-tech companies? Large companies will generally have some sort of tech roles, generally lower paying but at this point I doubt that’s a deal breaker.

      A seven-month search isn’t ridiculous, and don’t count yourself out. I assume you’ve taken dates for your degrees off your resume. In your case with the first job being the longest by far I’d leave it on; you look much less experienced and more of a job hopper without it.

      Good luck!

  79. Unkempt Flatware*

    Whatever became of Liz Ryan of Ask Liz Ryan? I recall she gave pretty odd and what I consider to be bad advice. Lots of “your supervisor is afraid of you” type stuff. It makes me wonder if these types of “experts” try to stay aware of the real world. Do you think Liz Ryan read AAM and realized she was going by the wayside?

    1. pally*

      I think she’s still active. Her LI shows regular articles up to 18 July 2024.

      Speaking just for myself, after a while I found her advice not helpful. So I unfollowed her.

    2. Friday Person*

      I’m admittedly unfamiliar with her, but unless she has specifically mentioned recently discovering this blog, “read AAM and realized she was going by the wayside” seems to me like an extremely unlikely explanation.

    3. Rebecca*

      “It makes me wonder if these types of “experts” try to stay aware of the real world.”

      How would you expect to a blog author to “stay aware of the real world?” The author of this blog hasn’t been a manager in years and years, and only has management experience in small non-profits. If that’s your standard, Liz Ryan is doing ok.

  80. Withdrawal Question*

    How do I tell a hiring manager that I’ve accepted a position at another company, when I didn’t inform them earlier in the process that I was interviewing with multiple companies?

    Here’s the situation – I was interviewing with two companies recently (A and B). I interview with A first, and then had some interviews with B. At the time I talked with B, A had not made me an offer, and I had no indication they were going to. The hiring manager for B then went on PTO, and said she’d get back in touch with me when she returned. So during the time she was on PTO, Company A reached out and made me an offer. I decided to accept the offer from A, and just htis past week have gotten things sorted and am now officially hired by Company A. So I was going to email Company B hiring manager, and she just emailed me to move to the next steps for her position.

    I’m stressing about how to word my email to her to let her know I accepted a different position, especially because when she asked if it would be okay to wait until after her PTO to move forward, I said it would be fine. At the time I said that, I really had no indication Company A was going to make me an offer. But I never mentioned I was interviewing with other companies. Is that a bad thing? I don’t want to seem unprofessional, because I got some referrals from people at Company B, and they are in the same industry as me, so I’d like to keep good professional relationships. How would you word a withdrawal email? Thanks everyone!

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I think you’re overthinking this. I always assume people are applying with multiple companies and you didn’t do anything wrong by not specifically stating that. Thanking her for her time and saying you’ve accepted another position is all that needs to be said.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Unless she specifically asked whether you were interviewing anywhere else and you flat out lied, you’re fine. “I very much enjoyed talking with you, but unfortunately I need to withdraw from consideration since I’ve just accepted another offer. Best of luck with your search!” If you feel the need to address it, “Sorry I didn’t mention it when you asked about my timeline – at the time I wasn’t expecting their process to move as quickly as it did.”

      1. Withdrawal Question*

        She didn’t ask if I was, but she did ask if waiting until her PTO was over to move forward was fine….and really, I couldn’t have known the future so at the time, it was. Thank you for your input!

    3. WantonSeedStitch*

      It’s not like you’re ever obliged to disclose that you’re interviewing with multiple companies! Very few people ever do, and I would never expect someone to do so. I think most hiring managers automatically assume that if someone is applying for their open position, they are likely applying for open positions elsewhere too. I would just say “thank you for getting back to me, but I’ve recently accepted an offer elsewhere. I’d like to withdraw my candidacy at this point, and I wish you the best of luck in finding someone to fill your role!”

      FWIW, one of the drawbacks to a lengthy hiring process (whether it’s many stages or extended because of someone’s PTO) is that candidates may well get offers elsewhere before you can make them an offer. It’s just something employers have to accept.

      1. Withdrawal Question*

        Thank you! At my current workplace, we have a very tedious hiring process, and yes, I have lost out on many good candidates because of it. I think I’m overthinking this because I will still run across Company B people at conferences and industry events, and I don’t want to seem like I was being deceitful or anything.

    4. Cordelia*

      “Thankyou for your time, but I have now accepted a position with another company so need to withdraw from this application process. ” This is common, not unprofessional at all. You didn’t need to tell them that you were also applying elsewhere, the expectation is that you probably are, that’s just how it works. You don’t owe Company B anything,and it would be very weird if they held this against you – it won’t affect your professional relationships.

  81. Chirpy*

    On a lighter (?) note, I never know what to say when my coworker tries to get me to join her in ogling customers. First of all, I’m way too asexual for this and it took me a good 30 seconds to figure out why she was winking and nodding and who she was trying to get me to look at.
    But also, her taste in men is not what I find attractive, and even if it was, I don’t like being ogled, so I’m not going to ogle some random guy like that (or at least, I’d try to be discreet, but again, I’m asexual and this doesn’t come up all that often.)

    I just tend to stand there looking confused when she does this. I realize she probably already thinks I’m super weird for not thinking these guys are hot and being “perpetually single” (I think?) but I’m not going to out myself as asexual at work because I don’t see that being useful or relevant.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      Imagine the genders were reversed and your colleague was a man ogling female customers. I can think of all sorts of things I might say, like “That’s not very professional” or “that’s not appropriate” or even, “Why do you think it’s okay to look at someone’s body like that?” The same rules apply.

    3. Angstrom*

      “Eh, not really my type” in a neutral tone. If you keep giving a bland response she may stop trying to get a reaction from you.
      If she does persist, use the gender reversal argument to shut her down.

      1. Chirpy*

        She’s the type to think being ogled/catcalled is a “compliment”, though. It’s obnoxious.

      2. Chirpy*

        I try to give super bland answers/ say “not my type” but then she tries to find out what my type is…it just seems to make her go on about it longer.

        1. Florence Reece*

          If/when this happens again, I would stick to bland/”not my type.” If she pushes, say something like “I don’t know, I just don’t really view our customers that way. I don’t want to bring that into work.” She doesn’t need to know you don’t necessarily bring it into your personal life either, and it sets a boundary. Then if she persists, I would just give her a weird look or a shrug and generally dismiss it.

          If she’s being this pushy, you have every right to just ignore it and remove yourself from the situation (if possible) or grey rock it if you can’t do that. You’re not doing anything wrong here, she is.

    4. Pocket Mouse*

      “It’s really inappropriate that you ogle customers and I won’t be joining you in that activity. Please stop.”

      What she’s doing is gross and it is not out of line to say so. It’s also sexual behavior that is unwelcome and makes you uncomfortable, and therefore worth considering whether you want to report it as sexual harassment. Your taste in men is irrelevant given the bigger issues.

      1. Alisaurus*

        Yeah, agreed, this is over the line into sexual harassment IN ADDITION to it being inappropriate and gross as a decent human being.

      2. Chirpy*

        I can’t really report it, because management will shrug it off as “why do you care?”. I can’t get them to take me seriously on sexual harassment unless a person actually touches me or is really, really blatant at me directly so I’d rather not waste what little capital I do have on this.

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          I’m sorry to hear that. I hope knowing it fits the definition of sexual harassment bolsters your confidence in framing your response accordingly, though. It sounds like you’ve been deflecting without making it clear to her that you Will Not Engage and Do Not Support that kind of behavior, so I hope a script or two that have been suggested here resonate as something you feel you can use in the moment. Practice saying it aloud ahead of time if need be!

    5. Emperor Kuzco*

      “I’m not really interested.”
      “No thanks.”
      “I actually don’t really care, can we talk about something else?”
      And repeat a few times. If she still keeps bringing it up, then you can be more straightforward (hah): “I’ve mentioned a few times that I don’t really care about this subject, can you not bring it up when I’m around? Thanks.”
      Also, no matter what your sexuality, this is weird and unprofessional.

    6. ecnaseener*

      Standing there looking confused is fine if it works for you! If she’s just winking and nodding, I would blithely refuse to catch her meaning — oh, that customer over there? why is she pointing them out, does she think they need help with something?

      The main point is make this BORING for her. If she says she thinks someone is hot, say something like “oh, ok” and change the subject or go find something else to do. If she asks don’t you think he’s hot, say “I don’t really notice that kind of thing at work.” (The “at work” part is of course optional, but I assume from your post that you don’t want her to guess that you’re asexual.) If she says something truly inappropriate, pick your poison from “come on, don’t do that,” “that’s a weird thing to say,” subject change, silence, etc.

    7. AnonymousOctopus*

      As a femme-appearing nonbinary person attracted to women who hasn’t always been out, I’ve handled it by continuing to be “oblivious” until they spell it out. Then I say “Oh! I don’t think of customers that way, they are just customers to me since it wouldn’t be appropriate to act on that”. After a few rounds of me “not getting it”, coworkers have always stopped including me in that nonsense. It’s annoying as hell, hope you get a reprieve from it soon!

      1. Chirpy*

        Yeah, she’s oddly got the exact same personality as a friend from high school (who seems to have taken my direct “please stop setting me up with guys” as a challenge and has grilled me on why I’m single *twice* with a guy present when I didn’t have a way to leave, and doesn’t seem to understand why I don’t want to hang out with her anymore…I’m not telling her I’m asexual either because it would just make that way worse.) I had thought this coworker had stopped, it’s been a while but she did it again yesterday. She just gets jokey and tells me to “lighten up”.

    8. allathian*

      I’m sorry you’re in such an unsupportive environment. Management should shut that down right quick.

      Next time she says something like “lighten up” try saying “No, absolutely not. I don’t think your sexual comments about our customers are at all funny, and I really don’t want to hear another one.”

      In other words, embrace the “humorless” personality she’s trying to shame you for having. In my experience, that’s the only thing that has a chance of working when management refuses to intervene. All the better if you manage to imply, without directly saying so, that she should be ashamed of herself for her behavior. Turnabout’s fair play. Shaming people isn’t exactly professional, but neither is her behavior.

      1. Chirpy*

        Yeah. I just always feel like I’m walking a line between between “humorless” and irritating the coworkers that do this kind of thing into actively “punishing” me for not going along with them/working harder than they do.

  82. Meh*

    Internal transfer logistics.
    I was approved for an internal transfer. I gave my current team leaders almost 6 weeks advance notice, but the truth is that they simply don’t have anyone to transfer my tasks to. I know that if you leave the org, it is safely “not your problem” any more. What about internal transfers ? Can I ask to hold on to certain (high visibility/ high value) tasks post-transfer, especially in the absence of someone coming in to take on those responsibilities?

    1. Daisy-dog*

      Assuming your previous manager isn’t dealing with it, what does your new manager say? Will it impact your ability to do your new job? (That one was open because they did need someone to do it!)

    2. Policy Wonk*

      If you are in the wrapping up phase of the high visibility project, check with your new boss and see what they think. In my experience, one is generally not fully occupied for the first couple weeks of a new job as one is learning, and slowly integrating into the team. It could give you time to finish it.

      If the project is not near to completion, I wouldn’t try to take it with – not fair to your new job.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I did – but at the time I was the only one who did those tasks, and it actually made sense for them to both stay with me and also move under the umbrella of my new position. I’m now actually the manager of (that stuff) along with (the other stuff).

  83. Be Prepared*

    If I were to start applying for jobs, what would I put on applications as the reason for leaving my current one? The truth is anticipating layoffs. I have only been in my current role for 1.5 years and there are signs. I don’t love my job, but planned to stay until I was ready for a bigger step up which won’t be for a while.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      “Our company is being restructured, and while I would love to stay here longer, it’s likely they are going to eliminate a lot of positions.”

      I think most employers recognize that some people will try to get ahead of the lay-off curve, and as long as you are honest with them, they’ll understand it.

    2. JS*

      I wonder if you just say “In preparation for a possible reduction in force at my current organization, I am proactively looking for options elsewhere”. With how many industries have had layoffs, I think that will be understood.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      You don’t need to be 100% honest for a question like that.

      Find something about the jobs/organizations you are applying for that’s different than the one you’re at and add that in the reason, “I’m looking for a position at a bigger/smaller organization” or “I’m looking for a position with more ______” like a better commute, WFH, room to advance, better mission, growing industry.

      1. Be Prepared*

        My fear with doing that is looking like a job hopper. My previous role was 2.5 years and this role was a clear “promotion”. I would be looking at lateral moves after only 1.5 years. And other than bad PTO, my current company is fine.

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          “Job-hopping” depends on your industry. In some careers, 2.5 and 1.5 years would seem like normal intervals for a job regardless of potential layoffs. For example, in graphics/web design — careers that can be very project driven — those wouldn’t seem like job-hopping time frames to me. It might also depend on how far you are in your career… an entry-level person is somewhat expected to change jobs more frequently than someone in a top-level job.

          I think the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics has approximately 4 years as the median, and a lot of advice is to stay at least a year. I think you are in the clear IMO.

    4. Rainy*

      Are applications asking that? I haven’t had that question come up on the backend form in years, and no one has asked me in an interview.

      I’ve been asked why I’m interested in the job I’m applying to, but not why I’m looking.

    5. ecnaseener*

      The responses above are good for if you’re asked about it in an interview, but as I understand your question you’re just talking about a form with your employment history, where for past jobs you would just write things like “resigned,” “laid off,” etc?

      If you’re still at your current job, I’d just write N/A there. Or “still employed.”

  84. Dennis*

    Back in January, I was notified I was a finalist for a position, but they have to reprioritize their hiring and would reach out at some future time to see if I was still interested. It’s a state job. Do I reach out now after six months, to reiterate my interest? I’m not hanging my hopes on this one job, and have been looking elsewhere, but I would love this one. Any advice?

    1. Policy Wonk*

      Can’t speak for State jobs, but in the federal world the position could still be being worked. It wouldn’t hurt to reach out, but be polite and don’t pester. (I am always amazed when someone calls or messages repeatedly. If I’d thought highly of them before, I won’t anymore…)

  85. Shutterdoula*

    What jobs are good for a young 20s person with extreme social anxiety and possibly ADD? She’s been doing hotel housekeeping and that was okay but that just ended. She definitely does NOT want to work in a role like retail or fast food where she would need to engage with the public.

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Office cleaner? These are often night positions when the offices are closed, and they already have cleaning experience.

      2. The Prettiest Curse*

        Having been a cleaner, I can confirm that you generally don’t need to interact with people outside your cleaning crew, unless you come across an early arriving/late leaving staff member of the office you’re cleaning.

      3. Shutterdoula*

        I think she’s done with cleaning jobs of any kind. Did the hotel cleaning for 4 years and is totally burned out.

    2. Jaydee*

      Has she considered working with your state’s vocational rehabilitation program? They help folks with disabilities with employment-related things. Anything from aptitude tests to help identify types of jobs that might be a good fit to help with applications and resumes and practice interviews to job coaching if someone needs a little extra help to learn the job and be successful at it.

      If she’s interested in the aptitude testing, the O*NET Interest Profiler is free online and might be something to help her identify jobs she might enjoy versus ones she wouldn’t.

    3. Future*

      Late night or early morning stocking positions. It’s retail but when the store is closed.

    4. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Some sort of warehouse work or stocking job? Those are behind the scenes jobs where you don’t see the public. They are often really early or really late hours though because you have to be working when the customers are gone.

  86. Anon today*

    This week I received an automated notification to complete a reference for a former employee who left on less than stellar terms. The former employee is trying to be re-hired at my institution after quitting immediately following a formal meeting about their poor work performance (this followed many months of trying to coach them). Any thoughts on how you would respond to the reference request?

    For me, it’s standard practice to reach out to anyone you’re asking a reference for in advance to give them a heads up/confirm they would give an enthusiastic reference. My former employee did not reach out to me in advance and if they had, I would have been honest in letting them know that I wouldn’t be able to provide a positive reference for them. I’m a bit at a loss as I’m not even able to reach out to them to let them know this because I don’t have their personal contact info and they blocked me on LinkedIn when they quit.

    1. JS*

      Can you reach out to HR since its the same institution and ask them how to proceed considering their history and that they did not give you a head’s up?

      1. Anon today*

        Yeah, I think that’s what I’ll need to do. Our HR is not great, but I’m not sure what other options I have and should get this on their radar now.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I was requested to be a reference for someone and I knew I would only hurt their chances, as they didn’t leave on good circumstances. I declined to be a reference for this reason. However, if it’s where you currently work, I feel like there is an obligation to provide it.

    3. Kathenus*

      Depending on your organization, your comfortability, and whether you do/don’t know the hiring manager for the new job you can be anywhere between fully honest (which I do if I know the hiring manager personally, and by phone) to purely factual (resigned immediately following a formal meeting about concerns with their work performance), or somewhere in between (which to me would be the factual with a few details to describe the areas of concern). I’m surprised your HR didn’t flag their record when they left, whenever we have a separation for any reason one of the boxes we need to check is on rehire/rehire with interview/no rehire.

    4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      As she’s applying again to your own organisation, you are obliged to warn of her poor performance even after much remedial training.
      She seems to have left before she would have been put on the “No Hire” list.

      She may not have given you as a reference, but the old job will be on her resumee, so I’d expect them to ask any previous manager still in their org who knows her work – and they will expect an honest reference. If you try to avoid tanking her chances, it will come back on you if she is hired and repeats her previous performance issues.

    5. Shutterdoula*

      If this were an external company looking for a reference, I’d say just ignore it.
      But since it is at the place where you work, you should be strictly truthful and accurate in your reference.

    6. Peter*

      The applicant may not even know that you’ve been flagged for a reference.
      I think you need to be strictly accurate in your written comments, but I might try and work out which of my colleagues was recruiting and chat to her quietly.

  87. Policy Wonk*

    They didn’t reach out beforehand to ask, you can’t give them a good reference, if it were me I’d just ignore/delete the request.

  88. The Unionizer Bunny*

    Employers’ encroachment on employees’ lives threaten to gradually reshape common beliefs about what is acceptable. Employment in the U.S. is (almost always) at-will, meaning employees can be fired for any lawful reason or no reason at all, so an employer is broadly unrestricted in what they can demand – for instance, a religious employer might say that part of the company’s public image is how their unmarried workers don’t have sex. But a non-religious employer concerned about pregnant workers taking family leave might insist that ALL employees not have sex when off-duty, because it creates a risk of them not being able to work – wait, that’s illegal discrimination? Fine then, because many sexual activities can result in physical injuries, which could result in employees being unable to work. Besides, having sex isn’t really necessary in the “enabling employees to return to work” sense.

    Ridiculous? If the ridicule doesn’t drive that employer out of business, then they may get away with this. Workers are free to accept most conditions of exchanging labor for pay (transit companies may demand that its drivers do not drink in the 48 hours before their shift), even if it offends others’ moral sensibilities, which do not amount to laws. In the absence of explicit statutes, a corpus of past court rulings forms “common law”, which most judges will accept as precedent. Under common law, employees hold a fiduciary duty towards their employer (mostly a duty of loyalty), to act primarily for the benefit of that employer in matters related to employment. But common law also empowers juries to decide verdicts, which can put common beliefs back in charge of whether employers have overstepped. I’m curious about yours.

    A post this week about wakeboarding (a sport where surfers are towed by a boat instead of riding waves) introduced me to the principle that whether activities in our personal lives should lead to being fired (for cause) depends on the probability of that activity preventing us from working a shift (or being effective in our work) and how necessary the risk-taking was. I’m especially curious about how you all evaluate risk, if you agree with the principle at all. A study from NIH found that 0.35/100,000 women suffer accidents from wakeboarding each year (on average), and another found that Americans are injured by kitchen knives 56/100,000 times per year (on average). I know it’s necessary for people to eat, but is it really necessary to prepare our own food? (I know about SNAP rules. Assume a living wage.) The alternatives are pricier, but employers are willing to pay more to ensure the availability of their workforce, right? (No? Look, this is part of risk mitigation, and if the company can’t afford to do so little, then doesn’t it have the right to offload the cost of these mitigations to its employees? Even without putting anything into the contract, since workers may accept it as “just the way ‘having a job’ works”.)

    FLSA rules call it “working while on-call” if we “cannot use the time effectively for [our] own purposes”. Is it an employee’s responsibility to have a sit-down with their manager when they begin working, so the manager can evaluate how risky their lifestyle is and instruct the employee which hobbies are too risky and will have to be traded out for something else to relieve the company of having to pay for this personal time the employee will be deprived of? Should an employee disclose their personal risk factors during the interview, so an employer can take into account the odds of that employee taking FMLA or asking for a medical-disability accommodation? (Borderline illegal? Jury nullification. What do you believe?)

    1. The Unionizer Bunny*

      I believe that we sell our labor for the money that enables us to live OUR lives. We are neither slaves nor fanatically-loyal agents of our employers, and while we have the right to work only for a paycheck (not because we love the company’s mission or culture so much that we will happily suffer all kinds of abuse and pay cuts in exchange for the privilege of working there), we also have the right to care about other people enough to work together with them (at and outside of work) to improve working conditions for us all. Employers who try to instill expectations of sacrificing our personal lives upon the altar of the work that was only worth doing when it enabled us to support our own interests, or of accepting micromanaging restrictions on our freedom to pursue happiness/fulfillment, should face pushback. We work to live, not live to work – any infringement upon “living”, made in the name of “working”, violates the social contract that justifies work.

    2. WellRed*

      In the letter you were referencing, the issue wasn’t that she hurt herself wakeboarding, it was it was one of four separate instances of her calling out or leaving early. Of course you can’t account for all sorts of risk factors it if an employee regularly calls out sick does to wakeboarding injuries or foraging for poison mushrooms on a regular basis, that is the issue.

    3. ecnaseener*

      Ok so, the wakeboarding post this week was not about anyone being fired for wakeboarding. It was about a new employee leaving her shift at an ice cream parlor early because she was too sore to scoop ice cream, due to wakeboarding. She didn’t get injured, she was just sore, as is typical. If you decide do something that’ll make you sore right before your shift at a coverage-based job, and you’re not willing to work while sore, you can’t really be surprised that your actions have consequences such as management not trusting that you will work your shifts.

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        Ok so, the wakeboarding post this week was not about anyone being fired for wakeboarding.

        Fairly sure I didn’t say it was?

        “A post this week about wakeboarding (a sport where surfers are towed by a boat instead of riding waves) introduced me to the principle that whether activities in our personal lives should lead to being fired (for cause) depends on the probability of that activity preventing us from working a shift (or being effective in our work) and how necessary the risk-taking was.”

        Other replies indicate that this is a common interpretation, though, so I’m reviewing my post . . . ah, yes. I see where I used the wrong word. My bad, the word “post” can refer to “comment” sometimes (since we “post” “comments”), and it was a comment thread that introduced this principle to me. Let me link to the thread:
        https://www.askamanager.org/2024/07/asking-employee-to-have-their-eyes-checked-frustrated-with-daughters-new-job-and-more.html#comment-4786844
        (From there, skip down a few pages to my reply, then JM60’s response. This will show you the posts I meant.)

        It was about a new employee leaving her shift at an ice cream parlor early because she was too sore to scoop ice cream, due to wakeboarding. She didn’t get injured, she was just sore, as is typical.

        LW1:
        “She left right at close another time when her manager told her it was okay for her to leave since she was struggling with sore muscles and an injured wrist after wakeboarding earlier in the day.”

        I’ll call that out since it’s a point of fact. It’s true that she wasn’t fired; you, Magpie and Shutterdoula responded with just criticism to what I can see looked like a mischaracterization of LW1’s post, so that’s my due. My gratitude to all of you for still answering my question :)

    4. Magpie*

      In the letter that involved wakeboarding, the employee wasn’t fired because of a wakeboarding injury. She’d had multiple instances of leaving before her shift was over for a few different reasons. Even then, she wasn’t fired, just taken off the schedule for a week. Employers of course understand that anyone could be injured at any time whether or not they’re taking risks in their personal lives. Problems arise when an employee is regularly doing something that negatively impacts their ability to do their job. If someone is regularly getting injured wakeboarding and are then unable to do their job for a few days afterwards, it would be reasonable for their employer to sit them down and ask them to decide whether they’ll prioritize their job or their hobby. If they continued to choose wakeboarding, it would be reasonable for the employer to decide they need a more reliable employee.

    5. Shutterdoula*

      Wow, you really misunderstood the post this week.
      She was unable to do the work while she was there. What did you expect the manager to do? Pay her to sit around and do nothing? Also, she was NOT “on call” while wakeboarding.
      It’s not at all unreasonable to expect employees to show up ready and able to work. If I showed up at work Monday morning so drunk I couldn’t do my job, my employer absolutely SHOULD act on that. (I work in a hospital. Do you think hospital employees should be able to show up for their jobs drunk or after an all-nighter?)
      It’s up to individuals to manage themselves so that they can be able to work when they come in.

    6. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      In that letter, the wakebording was only an issue because it left her unable to work her full 4-hour shift the next day.

      imo it is reasonable for an employee to require that your activities during non-work hours don’t leave you unfit to perform your paid work duties. That would not just involve sports, e.g. you need to find time to get adequate sleep on your own time, not have 16 hours of fun and then want to sleep at work.

      I’m totally against actual work creeping into unpaid hours. I always chose jobs with agreed hours that would not contact me out of hours or expect any work that was over my 35 hours unless they paid me or gave me comp time to the minute (info provided by automatic badging in/out of the work site)

    7. Florence Reece*

      The misunderstanding about the wakeboarding part has been covered, so I want to point out: the flip side to not having strict rules of conduct for employment relationships is that companies can offer more flexibility, and can ensure that the working environment is good for most of the employees, and can create a variety of cultures so people can match themselves to the environment that fits best for their personal situation.

      Look, I get it. Especially in the US, the employer-employee relationship is a fraught power dynamic in many cases, and some parties have worked tirelessly to erode workers’ rights. I have my opinions about what ends that mission serves, but it doesn’t really matter. We know the reality is that many workers are mistreated and poorly educated about the sparse rights they do hold. That should change and a better work-life balance for all should be the goal, I’m totally with you there.

      But let’s pretend the exploitative nature of capitalism isn’t at play here. Even in an ideal world, there are jobs to do. It’s not unreasonable to expect job-doers to meet basic requirements for those jobs. A very, very basic aspect of food service is being physically present and able to perform the job. Yes, that excludes some people who need to physically recuperate away from work more often for various reasons (wakeboarding is one, my chronic illness is another, caregiving is a third…). But shrugging our shoulders and saying it’s fine for one person to do that because you sympathize with them means that their entire team gets more on their plate to support someone who isn’t reciprocating. You talk about wanting to care about other people enough to work together with them — that’s exactly what this is.

      Of course people shouldn’t be expected to disclose all of their risk factors in an interview, a clearly farcical question. It wouldn’t even help — you talk about the tiny risk of injury in wakeboarding, but point is that the employee wasn’t injured, she was “just” sore and wanted to go home. No risk factor accounts for the way people respond to the stress in their life. It’s not useful information even if we were all on-board for discriminatory practices.

      But ultimately, different people thrive in different environments, and sometimes both sides have to give things a shot to figure out if it works. That truly goes both ways, employers and employees. I couldn’t do food service because of my own illness and my neurodivergence — it would be like torture to me. So…I pursued other jobs where I can work from home and focus on independent, self-motivated tasks. My ADHD roommate would loathe my job; he does poorly without daily direction and can’t focus at home. I would loathe his job; I do poorly in an office and thrive when I’m given a heap of work and time to complete it on my own. I have complaints about the system overall but it is GREAT that he can do his job that he loves and I can do my job that I love and we aren’t forced to conform in a weird middle ground that we both kinda hate for the sake of equity.

      If you are consistently struggling to stay at a new job for your entire shift, you need to find a new job or maybe a new field. It is not reasonable to expect other people to pick up your slack and then act like that’s some pro-social ideal. People should have the freedom to live without fear or coercion, but “consistently push your work onto other similarly-exploited people” is not part of that ideal in any way. You’re just sacrificing the personal life and health of other people instead of yourself.

      (Are you the mom? There are other letters this week that were much more directly related to work-life balance and the overstepping of corporate culture in particular, but none of those are mentioned here for some reason.)

      1. The Unionizer Bunny*

        (Are you the mom? There are other letters this week that were much more directly related to work-life balance and the overstepping of corporate culture in particular, but none of those are mentioned here for some reason.)

        I am not the mom. I may have posted comments on those letters and not flagged them for follow-up in the week’s open thread. When my reply above passes moderation, you will be able to see a link to the comment thread (replying to the mom’s letter) which led me to follow up on it in this week’s open thread.

        you talk about the tiny risk of injury in wakeboarding, but point is that the employee wasn’t injured, she was “just” sore and wanted to go home.

        You are the second person to say that. Are we seeing different versions of LW1’s post?

        Anyway, my intention wasn’t to ask only about injury-causing activities, but rather to get at the probability factor for different events.

        But shrugging our shoulders and saying it’s fine for one person to do that because you sympathize with them means that their entire team gets more on their plate to support someone who isn’t reciprocating. You talk about wanting to care about other people enough to work together with them — that’s exactly what this is.

        I agree with this 100%, and flagged Turingtested’s post (comment) on my first pass through the replies – but when I worked my way down to it, I couldn’t think of anything to add (and didn’t want to add a reply just to agree), so I passed over it.

        Food service is hard because margins are low – managers have to figure out how many people they’re going to need for covering shifts, and how few they can get away with, so when someone isn’t predictable, they have to call someone last-minute asking for a short-notice response. This makes management seem incompetent, engendering resentment among workers, who assert their own work-life balance to avoid what they see as abuse, depriving management of workers who might otherwise have been willing to help out. It’s a degenerative cycle.

        Not one I wanted to get into. That’s why I tried to start a new discussion around principles that came up in the comments (this was unclear).

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          I think, given that the injured wrist was mentioned with, and even after, the sore muscles, most of us are assuming the injury to be on a par with sore muscles, something like she bumped her wrist or twisted it slightly, nothing that would be registered as a wakeboarding injury because it wouldn’t get medical attention or anything that would mean it was even known of.

          And I think that completly changes the probability, because the risks of small injury are quite high in quite a lot of activities and I don’t think anybody suggested that employers should be allowed to ban people from any of these activities, including wakeboarding, just that often we have to go into work with such injuries or we choose to go the activities on say a Friday evening to give us time to recover from minor injuries.

    8. Irish Teacher.*

      I think there is a difference between an unlikely injury from wakeboarding or using a kitchen knife and being sore from a sport. As far as I know, the young woman wasn’t seriously injured; she was just sore from exertion? I think essentially saying, “I need to leave work early because I’m tired from a hobby,” which is how an employer is likely to hear what she said, isn’t likely to go down very well and is rather different from “I got a rare injury while engaging in my hobby.”

      I could be wrong but I got the impression the injured arm wasn’t particularly serious as it is put together with sore muscles, so rightly or wrongly, it is going to sound to the employer either like “I overdid it with my hobby and tired myself out even though I knew I had work today” or else like “I’m a bit sore and am not willing to work through it.”

      Maybe neither of those is true. Maybe she had a seriously injured arm, in which case, I would feel differently. That would be a valid reason to call in sick. Or maybe it was more serious than the employer knew, but bringing up sore muscles from an unnecessary activity sounds to me a lot different from getting pregnant. If somebody came into work and said, “I need to go home early because I had really frisky sex last night and my body is sore from it,” I think that would be viewed poorly too.

      Pregnancy and serious injuries are seen as valid reasons to miss work, even if they are from an unnecessary activity. Whether fair or not, sore muscles really aren’t and they are also way more predictable than injury. While serious injury from wakeboarding may be rare, I am pretty sure being a bit sore is common after any rigourous activity.

      I don’t think employers have a right to decide what activities employees engage in after work and they certainly shouldn’t be “assessing risk” as they are not qualified to do so, but I do think it is fair for an employer to think that a young, recently hired employee who had to leave early or missed some part of work four times in a short period should be prioritising being at work more and that they should be able to take into account the reasons the employee gives and to make it clear that they need to arrange themselves not to be too sore to work.

      Not that an employer should be able to say “you’re not allowed to wakeboard any more.” That would be utterly ludicrous. But they should be able to say, “you need to be at work unless there is a reason that means you absolutely can’t be. It’s up to you whether that means you stop wakeboarding, do it only on days you aren’t working, do it for shorter periods of time so you aren’t as tired or just come to work and push through sore muscles.”

      That is very different from saying, “you’re not allowed to wakeboard because it could leave you tired and we’re going to fire you if you are caught wakeboarding even if you never miss work for minor reasons.”

  89. beware the shoebill*

    I just wanted to share that I finally found a new job! It’s pretty much a lateral move (even pays slightly less), but I’m hoping that having something new I can mentally engage with will be better for my mental health, and it may have better opportunities for growth in the future as well.

    I’ve posted here a couple times asking for help with the job hunting process in the context of staying with your first job for 8 years and having no other experience. Given that, how do you balance being optimistic and open to to a new situation with being paranoid that you’re making a mistake and will regret it?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Congrats! I’m also just starting my second “real” job and living with the heeby-jeebies. (I gave up a job I was comfortable in, where I knew how to do everything and had a strong track record and a lot of good will! gave it up for a job where none of that is true and I won’t know for at least a few months whether it’s ever going to be true!)

      I don’t think there’s any way around that feeling, I’m just sitting with it and trusting that I will eventually find out whether this was the right choice. And I’m reminding myself that even if this job ends up being a bad fit, I’ll probably still get something out of it that I wouldn’t have gotten at my old job.

      And I scoured the AAM archives for everything I could find on transitioning out of jobs and starting new ones, weird new hires not to emulate, etc :)

      1. beware the shoebill*

        Sounds like we’re in the same boat! Fingers crossed for both of us that we can get just as comfortable with the new job as the old.

  90. Snoozing not schmoozing*

    This is what I used in in-person interviews, not sure if it would work remotely. When the interviewer(s) were speaking, I’d lean forward just a bit in my chair. It made me look interested in whatever they were saying. When it was my turn to speak, I’d lean slightly back, which made me look relaxed, and therefore confident. In the last job I had (which lasted many years), I had to interview with a division head who was not enthusiastic but granted the interview because I was an in-house candidate. Afterwards, the department head who became my new manager told me it was the best interview he’d ever been involved in. I did it because although I had some relevant experience, I didn’t have other qualifications they wanted, so I knew I had to put on a hell of a performance – and that’s where the body language came in, using it like an acting exercise.

    1. Snoozing not schmoozing*

      Sorry, nesting fail. I have no idea why it posted a second time as a new post, when it already posted in reply to someone. Oh well, maybe another person can use it!

  91. AnonForThisOne*

    Anyone’s work (or websites you use) still down following the Crowdstrike debacle?

    We are already all remote this week due to an unrelated tech issue that is blocking some of our access, so this just feels like the final straw and like we should just put a fork in this week.

  92. Mar*

    Question about clothing at work! I’m a pretty butch lesbian, and wear almost exclusively men’s clothing. My office has pretty lax rules for women wearing skirts/dresses/longer shorts to the office, but my male coworkers exclusively wear pants. I would love to be able to wear shorts, especially during heatwaves, but feel weird as to which dress code I should be following. Any tips?

    1. Ricotta*

      I feel like a skort is a good in-between option here, though I realize they tend to be more sporty than office-y.

      1. Shorty McSkorty*

        I second skorts. I wear Duluth Trading skorts because they’re cute and comfortable. Theirs are office-y and not sporty. They have (4) prints and the rest are nice colors. While Duluth caters to the agriculture customer, their stuff is nice for everyone.

        I pair mine with short-sleeved bamboo or hemp shirts from Onno.

    2. mreasy*

      If shorts for women are allowed, and you are women, wear the shorts. Enough about workplaces is harder for women in them that I think we can take our small victories.

    3. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Are you… feeling sorry for the men? So you’re going to restrain yourself from doing something so that the men, who have not expressed any feelings about this, will not… have feelings about this?

      You may be a butch, but you’ve been socialized to manage men’s feelings for them like all women have. If the men want to agitate for shorts-wearing, let them! Wear your shorts because you can!

    4. EMP*

      If anyone wears shorts to the office I think it’s fine to also wear shorts to the office, regardless of gender

    5. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I don’t see why you can’t mix ‘n match within clothing rules i.e. masculine type shorts and short-sleeved shirt, both of which following rules wrt material, coverage area etc.
      Maybe the blokes will see how appropriate that is for the heat and copy you.

      I dress unisex, so in summer it’s unisex knee-length shorts -usually cargo, as I need lots of pockets – and tee. I’ve never worn a skort because personally I find that too feminine, but YMMV.

    6. AnonForThisOne*

      Wear the shorts. I’m a little surprised there’s even a male/female dress code at your company as most have made them genderless.

      But regardless, wear the shorts and look fabulous.

    7. kalli*

      A) You are a woman, the women’s dress code includes longer shorts = you’re covered for shorts under your work dress code.

      B) If you combined the dress codes it would include longer shorts = you’re covered for shorts under your work dress code.

      C) Dress codes apply to the people wearing them, not which section of the store they came from or who mostly wears them generally.

    8. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

      Go with the shorts. As long as they’re not shorter than what your colleagues are wearing it shouldn’t be an issue.

      Gendered dress codes are stupid, but if you’re a woman following the dress code for women they really can’t complain.

      1. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

        I’m mostly WFH these days but what I usually wear for work while it’s this hot is a short-sleeved button-down shirt and longish shorts.

    9. The Unionizer Bunny*

      I would love to be able to wear shorts, especially during heatwaves, but feel weird as to which dress code I should be following. Any tips?

      Are there any restrictions as to which country’s dress code you follow?

      Kilts are unisex, and popularly perceived as male attire. They come in shorts-length sizes. They are also either simple enough to make one yourself, so you can use whatever performance fabric you’d like.

    10. PotatoRock*

      I think you are fine to wear shorts, including men’s shorts. Start with the kind of more formal fits and fabrics (ie tailored fit, maybe a linen blend or suit-adjacent material, definitely a zipper and button, not a tie closure) and see if that feels like it fits your office?

    11. Alex*

      Do the male workers exclusively wear pants because they are prohibited from doing so, or just because they don’t?

      I’d say if other women wear shorts, you also can wear shorts. But also, if I were I guy, and I wanted to wear shorts and women were wearing shorts…I’d wear shorts! Because f*** that gendered noise.

  93. Meeting you changes nothing*

    Anyone have corporate speak for “Meeting with you is a complete waste of time and I will not do it. Email is fine, or better yet, just fill out the form you are supposed to once a year and don’t bother me otherwise.”

    I’m workshopping some stuff, but I’m just not sure.

    FYI – I’m a government regulator and this an external client that is in the least regulated group I have. They should should take up the least of my client type priority wise, but always try to take up the most.

    1. Ricotta*

      “Given the consistent nature of your annual needs, it would not be an effective use of your organization’s time to meet in person. Please fill out and submit the usual form, and I will be glad to follow up should any issues arise.”

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      “The form attached should sufficiently cover all of the required annual information. Should there be any questions, please refer to the FAQs found @_____. Should there be any other issues not covered by the FAQs, I am available during business hours via email.”

      Keep directing them to whatever resources they should be using instead of you.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Hi client, this doesn’t warrant an in person meeting. All the information we need is captured in your annual Form. The instructions are at this link. If you have any questions about filling it out that are not covered by the instructions, you can email them to me.

      As a reminder, your Form is / was due on Date.

    5. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      There used to be a great person on twitter who was very entertaining in how she managed her older bosses (who feared and admired and supported her). She would teach them the latest slang and they would teach her to corporatise her directness when dealing with fools. She had a list of useful statements for her readers e.g.

      Me: “How do I say this meeting is a waste of my time I am not paid enough to deal with your bullshit?”
      Boss: “Can you provide me with a meeting agenda so I can ensure my presence adds value? I want to prioritize my schedule to support our most urgent needs.”
      — The Meanest TA, PhD. (@MeanestTA) April 1, 2022

  94. rr*

    I realize that having a new job won’t fix all my problems, but I need a new job. Unfortunately, I’m not really qualified for anything, at least based on what I see posted, I don’t know anybody, and my area has limited (very) limited opportunities. Given all that, I need to train for something that I have a fighting chance of doing remotely and where there a significant amount of (decent) job.

    I’ve asked a variation on this before, but given the above, what would you train for and where would you get the training (I’m not great at self-directed learning, so I need some structure). Ideally, the training could be done while I’m still working (though if it a short enough period I might have some flexibility, but it would be tough) and just be generally not be too lengthy anyway. I think I’m not stupid, but I know better than to think I’m brilliant either. I’m better with facts than creativity, or at least I find them much less stressful.

    I would love some ideas. Local government isn’t an option as I’ve unsuccessfully tried that route.

    1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      See what your community college offers. They often have entire training programs – but if you truly have no skills, you will not be able to do this fast. Most programs are 18-24 months.

      You might even want to go talk to someone at the admissions office there to see if they can guide you.

    2. EMP*

      Seconding community college! A friend just started working towards an associate’s in social work, and if they want to get a 4 year degree there’s some colleges here that make it easy to transfer from cc

    3. WellRed*

      I think if I had retrain in something practical without a massive investment in a new degree or something like that, I’d consider medical billing for all the reasons you point to.

    4. TP Turkeys*

      If you think it might suit you, you might want to look into starting a two year degree in accounting to get into bookkeeping, which often has jobs available in the smallest towns and many legitimate virtual or flexible/part-time jobs. I’ve hired several community college students as fiscal assistants as they work on their degrees, and if you like it, you can move on to a four-year degree if you eventually want to become an accountant.

  95. rr*

    I have my degree, but I wouldn’t say I have any real skills. I guess it is worth looking at again, but I’ve taken some classes there before, and they didn’t help. Maybe if I took more classes or focused more on an area of study.

  96. Retail Not Retail*

    I know this is late in the day, but why not ask – one of my coworkers is caught in a romance scam and we stopped her from buying $1000 in gift cards for her faraway yet domestic boyfriend who won’t video chat with her. The system stopped her, actually, either at our store or at her bank.

    The question is this – would it be appropriate to contact her mother? Nobody above her at work feels they have the clout for her to hear us and we assume her mother doesn’t know. This is out of my hands. No one would stop me from talking to her about it and we all pointed out how weird his photo looked this morning but we doubt she was receptive.

    I can be very blunt at times with things I think are obvious. She has emotional issues and can be volatile in interactions. I supervise her during a shift, but I’m not her real supervisor.

    Today I stopped a customer in a similar situation by making up bullshit about the effects of the microsoft outage lol

    1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I may be missing something but I don’t understand what your co-worker’s mother has to do with this at all. I have a hard time seeing why a manager would contact someone’s family unless they were injured or otherwise needed assistance and definitely it is more odd from a co-worker.

      It sounds like you are legitimately concerned for your colleague and uncertainly so. That said, I tend to think any contact with their mother would be a pretty serious overstep. It’s a MYOB situation IMO.

      2. Slinky*

        I agree. I understand why you’re concerned, but talking to her mother seems odd, unless you already have a personal relationship with her.

        1. Retail Not Retail*

          I don’t know her mother, but she did come to me with her during her medical leave to help with accessing her work accounts. Our department head does know her though and others know of the sway she has.

          1. kalli*

            That doesn’t count. If your department head knows her personally and can bring it up organically, let them decide whether it’s worth breaching the barrier for.

      3. Retail Not Retail*

        It’s a very small town situation and she’s worked for the company for over 30 years. She gets SSI and works part time to maintain those limits, so I know she can’t afford to be strung along.

        She’s one of a couple adult employees where we accept family authority over their lives. For example, one guy did not come in our entire iced over subfreezing week in January and we know that was led by his sister.

        Once she insisted to me repeatedly that there were no branches of the company in another city in our state when I said I’d worked at 2 locations. Her source? A friend who lives in a rural area near there. That’s the kind of opposition we’ll run into if we push it.

        1. Small town*

          I feel like this being a small town is a slightly different situation and unless you’ve lived rurally, it’s hard to understand. This isn’t exactly the same, but my husband’s grandma was caught up in a scam like this, and we found out because one of the employees at the local Wal-Mart called her son to give him a heads up when she came in trying to buy the gift cards.

          It sounds as thought the employee might not be living entirely independently and mom might still play somewhat of a caregiver role? I think I would leave the actual contact to someone with more of a relationship with mom, but I don’t think it’s out of place to let her know so the scammer doesn’t get more money out of her. This is far less “meddling” than what we normally see on this site with questions of “should I tell my employees family member.” If not you all – then who?

    2. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Sounds like the department head is the person you could talk to and give them a heads-up. There may be some arrangement already in place for her mother to be involved if your coworker needs help.
      I think it IS worth speaking to the department head as romance scams are run by big criminal enterprises, and if your coworker was so close to sending money then the scammers will not quietly disappear, they will focus even more on stealing from her. In my (work) experience you will not be able to convince her that this is a romance scam, or be able to prevent it happening again with another faker from the same criminal organisation. But her family may have influence over her money management.
      Romance scammers are some of the vilest criminals, as they prey on the normal and healthy human desire to love and be loved.

    3. LMS manager for another firm*

      Would you consider also reporting it to the appropriate government regulator? I work for one of those and we take those things seriously, especially as you mention later that she is on SSI. That perpetrator might have a history and reporting this issue could help put them out of business. If you don’t know the appropriate regulator, you could contact your congressperson’s local office for assistance.

  97. LW7 from the "Reply All" thread*

    Howdy, people,

    I’m the one who described an AI-generated image of an office being deluged by waves of emails on the recent thread about “Reply All” trainwrecks. After a series of them happened in a few weeks involving a 1,000+-person mailing list at my hospital, a doctor responded to the next one with an image I loved and set as my desktop.

    I was embarrassed to post it, since I realized later that I’d described features that weren’t there, but Alison gave me the okay, so here is a link to it. I love it and hope you do, too! (I’m not used to posting images this way, so hopefully it works!)

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/201080659@N03/53868123426/in/dateposted-public/

      1. LW7*

        I’m glad I passed it on, after all! I don’t have the knack for getting anything interesting out of image generators, so I admire the good doctor’s efforts! He didn’t respond (perhaps unsurprisingly, given the context) when I emailed him back.

  98. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    Super late so I may try to remember to post again next Friday.

    What training has your work provided, that was supposed to be serious, but ended up hilarious?

    I was just voluntold to be the Saftey Coordinator for my floor. During an emergency, like earthquake or fire, I’m supposed to make sure everyone is out/accounted for and act as point person for communication with campus security or 911. I was sitting through a training day and we have evac sleds in each building to get people down stairs…either they are injured or disabled and we need to evacuate the building without using elevators. So first they live demonstrate the sled…and take one volunteer across the room. Then they start a video demonstrating a person being evacuated down stairs, and out the emergency exit… and then… the two assistants walk back into the building with the door shutting behind them, leaving the person strapped to the sled out on the sidewalk alone. The whole room of 80 people started howling with laughter. I guess it’s at least memorable training.

  99. PickledPennies*

    I screwed up.

    I got a career in communications by accident because I didn’t have the money to go beyond a Masters degree or do free internships in my field. Fast forward five years and now, I make six-figures in a career I hate with a team (or at least a boss) that hates me. Autistic woman is not a career match to anything with the word “communications” in it apparently. Who knew? Outside of anyone with a copy of the DSMV, I guess. I have no clue how I faked it this hard, but we’re finally at the “find out” end of “f-around,” because I’m crashing hard, loud, and oh-so-very publicly.

    I need a new career, but can’t afford the loss in salary of starting entirely over. I may be close to losing my job, and we all know what the market looks like right now let alone how unkind the world is to 30-somethings looking for a new bend. Anybody else ever been in this very specific situation out there with advice? At this point, I need a work therapy group chat.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t have any personal experience with this, but you might find something helpful in the “let’s talk about mid-life career changes” post from May 28, 2024. (I’ll link in a reply to this comment.) Good luck!

  100. Not-So-New Mom (of 2)*

    Any tips for doing well on the kind of interview where there’s no human on the other side and you’re just recording your answers? Other than looking at the camera and not at yourself? The position would involve presenting/lecturing on video so definitely a core skill.

    I found previous AAM posts about video interviews but not this issue specifically AFAICT.

    1. Rainy*

      Practice in exactly the same way you’ll be doing the video screener, so give yourself the same time limits to think and then answer (usually 1 and 3 minutes), record yourself, and watch it back. You don’t have to look into the camera the whole time to “make eye contact”–that’s honestly just not how people usually make eye contact, and even if it were, when someone stares straight into your eyes for a long time it feels super creepy. Basically just gain some confidence in the medium so that the weirdness of it doesn’t throw you off. Everything else is the same.

      Also: try not to talk super slow. For whatever reason a lot of people turn into Flash the Sloth from Zootopia when they’re being video recorded. I’ve been on search committees where we had to use recorded video interviews for the first round, and I end up watching them all on 1.5x playback.

  101. Mimmy*

    Quick question about yesterday’s CrowdStrike outage: How was it that, in one company, some people had problems and others didn’t?

    Yesterday was our virtual day and a few of my coworkers reported having issues, including our manager who was not. pleased. due to not having access to time-sensitive documents (she couldn’t even operate her laptop). Another coworker got a blue screen.

    Surprisingly, aside from not having access to our shared drive (which I didn’t need anyway), I had no issues. It feels a little like survivor’s guilt (I know, not the best use of the phrase, but it’s the best analogy I can come up with).

    For those who had no issues but coworkers did: Was it a matter of timing? I didn’t boot up my laptop until about 9:45 am, so my guess is that I wasn’t affected because this was likely well after CrowdStrike became aware of the problem and pulled whatever update they’d deployed.

    From what I’ve heard, the fix requires in-person assistance. We’re starting a two-week summer program on Monday, so here’s hoping things are back to normal by then or soon after!

    1. PotatoRock*

      It can be lots of things, including what version of Windows you were running, /other/ software you needed to access, whether you had the update installed (which depending on how you have updates configured more generally can be related to when you turned on your computer, or might not be), some of your colleagues might have been running Linux or using a MacBook, etc

      If you’re boss’s annoyance was directed /at/ people, like he’s trying to blame them for being affected (instead of momentary “argh, this /situation/ is frustrating”) that is weird and bad management.

      1. Mimmy*

        We all use Windows; mine is Windows 10, not sure if anyone is on 11.

        Our manager did not express her displeasure inappropriately; sorry if it came off that way.

        1. GythaOgden*

          Sounds to me like she was upset at the actual issues scuppering something that needed to go out ASAP, not upset at people for not being able to work.

  102. Irish Teacher.*

    Just something I learned recently and found interesting, though probably nobody will see it. Ireland apparently has the second highest rate of regular work from home in the EU…and it’s not even close between the top two and the rest.

    There was a study on how many people in each EU country worked from home more than half the time. I think it was 22.2% of people in Finland and 21.8% of people in Ireland and then the next highest is 15.3% of people in Sweden.

    I tried to find out the stats for the UK and US, but they aren’t really comparible. For the UK, I found stats for totally remote and for hybrid, but neither of those is a direct comparison.

    I was just surprised at how out of step we are with the rest of the EU – some countries have rates below 10%! I assumed that given how much cheaper it is for employers and how much reason governments have to incentivise it – to combat climate change, reduce urban sprawl, reduce traffic congestion, increase population in underpopulated areas and move people out of cities… – that most countries would have hung on to a fair bit of it once they had the resources in place.

    1. Banana Pyjamas*

      As a long time government employee in the US, you’re much too logical. If it makes sense they won’t do it. Local governments themselves have very butts in seats cultures on top of that.

Comments are closed.