the person who’s supposed to train me belittles me when I have questions

by Alison Green on July 24, 2024

A reader writes:

I’m learning the ropes in a new job, and there are lots of things that are very difficult to figure out by yourself. That’s expected though, and I am supposed to ask Lawrence for help. Lawrence has been with the company for several years now, but we hold the same job title and are on the same hierarchical level.

Lawrence sucks at explaining things. During 10 minutes, he will waterfall off 30 separate complex items, without break, even after I said to slow down and back up a few steps, to make sure I can take notes and actually understand them.

Additionally, he makes condescending comments throughout. Here are some examples:
– “Why are you asking me this?”
– “I thought you said you were competent?”
– “I already mentioned this to you once before.”
– “Why can’t you figure this out yourself?”

Then he ends with, “Don’t forget to come back if you need any help!” … and then begins the next time with, “Why are you asking me for help on this? Can’t you figure this out yourself?”

I am not the only one experiencing this. Two others started at the same time as me, with the same knowledge level, and have confirmed to me they have similar hurdles in learning how things work.

I feel awful, and I do not want to interact with Lawrence. I need this job (the market is really difficult at the moment) and am really afraid of antagonizing one of the most senior people in this project.

How can I tell Lawrence to be more considerate when communicating? I would love to ask my direct boss for feedback, but it is impossible to schedule a meeting with him so I cannot rely on that option.

You really, really need to find a way to get a few minutes with your boss.

When you say he’s impossible to schedule a meeting with, what does that mean exactly? Most people who are over-scheduled and hard to get time with will still carve out time if you say “I need to talk with you about an urgent issue,” particularly for someone who reports to them. If you don’t like that wording, there’s also, “I know you’re swamped, but I really need 10 minutes with you sometime this week for a problem I’m running into.” Or however you want to say it — but make it clear that this is important and outside of routine day-to-day work stuff. (Also, for what it’s worth, it’s ridiculous for a manager of a new hire to be so inaccessible to you, but that’s a different issue.)

But I say that because this is squarely in boss territory. You need to let him know that Lawrence belittles you when you ask for help. And be specific — repeat the same quotes you used in your letter, because this isn’t Lawrence just acting a little put-upon; this is insulting and borderline abusive.

If for some reason your boss truly isn’t an option, you could try addressing it with Lawrence himself. For example:

Lawrence: “Why are you asking me this?” / “Why can’t you figure this out yourself?”
You: “I was told it’s normal to have questions on this sort of thing while I’m learning it and that you’re the person I should come to. Is that not correct?”

Lawrence: “I already mentioned this to you once before.”
You: “There’s a lot to learn and I’m doing my best to learn it all, but I’m going to have questions as I do.”

Lawrence: “I thought you said you were competent?”
You: “Wow, okay. I was told there’s a large learning curve to this job and it would take some time to master it. Do you have concerns about how I’m doing overall that I should talk to (manager) about?” This may invite further abuse from him, but “I thought you said you were competent” is such a phenomenally shitty thing to say to a colleague that it could make sense to name what he’s hinting at and ask about it point-blank.

You could also consider saying to Lawrence in response to his crappiest moments: “I was told to come to you for help and that it’s normal to have a learning curve in this job. You often seem to think I shouldn’t need any help and you’ve been insulting about my capabilities. If I shouldn’t be coming to you with these questions, is there someone else I should talk with instead?”

But given that Lawrence has proved himself a raging asshole, I’d rather you skip all that and take the whole thing to your boss.

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{ 245 comments }

{ 245 comments… read them below }

  1. Baela Targaryen*

    – “I thought you said you were competent?”

    WHAT A GODDAMNED PRICK. You would completely be within your right to report this to your company/his higher up.

    1. I Would Rather Be Eating Dumplings*

      Yeah. Frankly, even if OP is incompetent or not at the level they should be, that is not even close to an appropriate way of addressing it.

      Not acceptable.

      2. Baela Targaryen*

        Yep. Even if OP were theeeeeeee worst employee of all time that is an awful, awful way to speak to a colleague.

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I can’t believe this guy is training three new hires if he’s this awful at it. Can all three of you compare notes and go to your boss together? (If you have the same boss, that is.) Lawrence sounds a lot like my dad, who is a smart engineer but is absolutely terrible at explaining how to do things and has no patience for people who can’t read his mind. Since Lawrence has only been there a few years, perhaps this is the first time he’s had to train people, so it’s possible no one above him knows how terrible he is at it. Definitely let your boss know, OP, and ask if there’s any way whatsoever that someone else could train you.

      I had to train a few new people at my last job how to do some of the tasks I do so they could be backup when I was out. I was the opposite of Lawrence and my dad; tried really hard to explain things multiple times, mentioned how confusing it could be and how I didn’t mind explaining again how to do something. When I left the job I made a few videos about how to do it too, so that the new person could watch how to do it as well as read my documentation on it. Lawrence, you’re doing it all wrong, my dude.

      1. Clisby*

        Second the suggestion of having all 3 new hires make the same complaint, especially if they have the same boss. I don’t know if that’s the case, but all 3 of them should report this to management regardless.

        1. Exit Persued by a Bear*

          Yes, I came to suggest that. If all three of you name the problem together, it’ll be much harder for them to dismiss or underestimate the severity of the situation.

      2. Parenthesis Guy*

        He may not be. Each of the new hires may be assigned to a different engineer, each of which are equally unpleasant.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          OP says all three hires have the same issue with Lawrence. They might all have different bosses, though, but all three of them have the same terrible trainer.

          1. Parenthesis Guy*

            OP wrote “Two others started at the same time as me, with the same knowledge level, and have confirmed to me they have similar hurdles in learning how things work.”

            Was there a different comment I missed?

            1. Slow Gin Lizz*

              Ah, ok. I guess it’s not clear. I assumed OP meant all three of them were being trained by Lawrence but I guess it’s equally possible to assume that they have different trainers and the company is just terrible at training new employees. If it’s just L that’s bad enough but if they have three awful trainers then this company is full of bees and won’t change, unfortunately.

              1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

                Or it could simply mean that the OP’s learning curve is the same as that of other new starters, so it is definitely a Lawrence problem rather than an OP problem.

      3. AngryOctopus*

        I mean, I just started a brand new process (to me) at work. I presented in a meeting and got tons of (helpful) feedback, but it was a lot to process. The next day one of the others reached out and wanted to make sure I was OK, because she realized that this was a lot of stuff coming at me at once, it was the first time I’ve done the majority of it, and they really want to be a helpful resource for me moving forward. It was very nice and made me feel like they’re really looking out for me, which is what you want when you’re new to something and being shown the ropes. Not whatever this is that Lawrence thinks he’s doing.
        OP, definitely get time with your boss, and get feedback from your cohorts getting the same messages. You need to push back on this because Lawrence should not be training anybody.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Lawrence should not be employed at this company any longer. Don’t be a raging asshole to your coworkers is a bare minimum requirement, I don’t care if it’s a “soft skill”.

    3. Pool Noodle Barnacle Pen0s*

      Yeah this would be an immediate “Excuse me, I’ll be right back” and go knock on the boss’s door moment for me. If I were the boss, I would want to know that my reports were behaving this way so I could step in right then. Totally unacceptable.

    4. Mainly Lurking (UK)*

      I would just like to say that I’m feeling SO validated right now, because I remember working with a man who used phrases like this and it made me question all my previous experience.

      Not that anyone with any power in the organisation I was in at the time was interested in addressing his behaviour …

      1. ferrina*

        Unfortunately, Jerks That Use These Phrases tend to go hand in hand with Management That Doesn’t Care. If the management did care, it is unlikely that This Guy would have been appointed to train new hires.

        1. Jackalope*

          Unless they don’t know yet. If this is the first time he’s trained people in the job then they might not have a way to know this, for example. He might not be that way with coworkers he’s not training. Or they might have started discipline and he’s been doing better so he’s getting another chance. But either way it’s essential to see what their response is when this is reported.

          1. Hyaline*

            This. I’m not denying that a boss who is this inaccessible and largely absent from the training process isn’t a bit problematic, but it doesn’t mean, necessarily, that the boss is intentionally appointing The Biggest Jackass in the Office to train new hires. She may legitimately have no idea how awful this guy is (in no small part , potentially, because plenty of bullies are excellent and cunning suckups).

          2. ferrina*

            It’s possible, but IME most people aren’t a good enough actor to pull this off. Most of the time, the manager doesn’t know because they are disengaged. This issue would be uncovered easily if the manager bothered to have a check-in meeting with their new hires. And there is really no excuse to not check in with new hires- a new hire is an investment in your team’s productivity, and you want to make sure that they have the training to get them fully productive ASAP.

            1. Great Frogs of Literature*

              When we hired new people last year, working with them was probably the biggest single task on my plate. I had meetings twice a week with each of them, plus meetings to train them on specific tasks. I’d say that we talked, either in person or via text, basically every day, for weeks or months. I still make a point of being available if they have questions, and I’m not even their manager anymore!

            2. AngryOctopus*

              IDK, we’ve all met that person who sucks up to those above, is fairly neutral to those level, and who is a complete jackass to those below (LW being below in this case because they are seeking knowledge they do not currently have, which people like Lawrence use as currency to prove their superiority).
              Agree though that the manager should be making time at least once a week to check in with LW and any other newbie who also reports to them.

          3. Zelda*

            Or if other trainees have just meekly accepted this treatment as inevitable hazing and accepted that the boss was not available to fix it, as LW might have done without validation that no, this is crap. Or if other trainees have quietly departed, murmuring empty standard phrases about why they were leaving rather than pointing fingers at an established employee.

            LW would be doing the organization a favor to push back; whether the organization is going to benefit from it remains to be seen.

          4. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            He might be peeved that he has to train these people, and has not been elevated to Team Leader with a bump in salary. That would definitely explain (not excuse) why he’s trying to belittle OP.

            1. MigraineMonth*

              Strong disagree. Helping new people on the team get up to speed is not a separate role like Team Lead, it’s a temporary part of everyone’s job. Otherwise you’d see tons of career progressions that were “Regular role (3 years) => Team Lead (2 months) => Regular role (1 year) => Team Lead (2 months) => Regular role (2 years)”.

              1. rebelwithmouseyhair*

                If previously Lawrence were the only person doing this job and now there are three noobs being added to make a team, there could be a case for making him team lead. It would include getting them up to speed, and then continue to be a resource person as well as coordinate their shifts, days off etc and reporting on behalf of the whole team to the manager. It’s happened to me so…

                1. Impending Heat Dome*

                  If there were a case to make Lawrence team lead, he just wrecked it by being completely inappropriate to the people he would hypothetically be leading.

        2. lime*

          This is sadly true. My manager sounds like a lot like Lawrence, even using some of the same phrases. I’ve spent over a year trying to get his behavior addressed with grandboss and HR but this has only shown me how my manager’s behavior is just the tip of the iceberg and my whole department is made of bees. At least in the LW’s case, other co-workers are experiencing the same issues so there could be some strength in numbers that would motivate boss and/or HR to take this seriously.

          To the LW, even if you can’t get your boss and/or HR to do anything about Lawrence, I hope you at least feel validated by Alison’s response and the commentariat here: Lawrence is a jerk and you’re not doing anything wrong by trying to learn.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Seriously. There is absolutely no possible reason that this would be even remotely acceptable for one of my training leads to say to a new hire, or even an experienced team member, and I need to know about that so I can read Lawrence the quietest hissingest-through-my-teeth can-you-even-tell-how-furious-I-am riot act imaginable. And I will then go to our HR business partner and submit a corrective action for him, because if anything even remotely similar happens again, I want to have already started the process to PIP and/or termination.

    6. Rex Libris*

      Personally I’d reply with “No need to be defensive. If you don’t understand it well enough to answer my question, is there someone else I can ask?”

      2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        This could truly be why he’s being such an ass. Some people get super defensive when they feel their skill is being tested.

    7. SheLooksFamiliar*

      I would be so very tempted to reply to Lawrence, ‘Funny, I heard that you were, too. Guess we were both misinformed.’

      Seriously, I wouldn’t do it, but I would really, really want to.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Haha, that’s a great comeback though! Not so great for a work situation, but still excellent.

        1. MotherofaPickle*

          It might just put Lawrence in his place and make him rethink things (if we give him the benefit of the doubt), but most likely not.

          I would absolutely say this to his face. I, however, know my worth, what and whatnot I will put up with, and where the next available paycheck is within a mile radius. Not everybody has the experience or opportunities that I do, unfortunately.

      2. AngryOctopus*

        It’s a great phrase to let run through your head though. Can make you feel better in the moment.

        Like I am currently having a huge issue with my dental office not processing my last visits correctly, not writing things down, asking why I paid X to them, etc. After yet another annoying phone call the person on the line said “Well, of COURSE we’re going to do our job!!” and the phrase in my head that calmed me down was “Huh, that’s funny, because you haven’t been doing it up until now, have you, hence this conversation”. A snarky phrase in your head can absolutely soothe you.

    8. Petty Betty*

      My petty self would be very tempted to respond “under a competent trainer, I am” and let that sit with him.

    9. goddessoftransitory*

      Yeah, Lawrence is proving to be an active detriment to the company here: even if people don’t leave after being treated that way, their training is going to suffer as they devise work arounds designed to keep this dicksmack as far away from them as possible.

    10. I Have RBF*

      Seriously. Lawrence is a 24K asshole. Calling him a mere jackass would be a promotion.

      L: “I thought you said you were competent?”

      Me: “I thought you were supposed to be training me. If I don’t learn it, it’s your fault.”

      But definitely bring his attitude and derogatory comments to your boss. If he’s treating you and your fellow newcomers this way, he needs to be yanked up short. He’s also a shitty trainer.

      I have trained people that I considered to be complete and utter morons. But I did not belittle them or insult them, I just tried to explain better. Because figuring out what they didn’t know was my job as the trainer, they would have no way of knowing that. Some were bad enough that they would just nod and say they understood but not be willing to demonstrate their knowledge, and then go fuck up by the numbers, but after they said they were trained.

      But even with the know-it-all mansplainers who were sure that they knew more than I did because they possessed a certain appendage, I never insulted them or was rude if they asked for help.

    11. WillowSunstar*

      Yes, that’s ridiculous for a trainer to be saying to a new person. Absolutely OP and other new trainees should go to boss.

    12. TeapotNinja*

      I would’ve had a very hard time resisting answering that with something like: “I am, but I’m getting second thoughts about your competence”.

      That would probably have landed quite badly, but geez.

    13. Vio*

      Responses we all wish we could use in this situation:
      “And I thought you said you were socially competent?”
      “Somebody must have thought you could figure out for yourself how to deal with people, clearly they were wrong!”
      “Have you ever answered a question without being a judgemental moron?”
      “Did you have to do special training to learn to talk out of your arse?”

      Sadly none of them are likely to be productive, but I find it sometimes helps to imagine using them.

  2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    “I thought you said you were competent?”
    OP should reply “I thought you were a competent trainer.”

    3. notscarlettohara*

      That’s always how I felt in college when professors would brag about how few students pass their classes! Oh, you’re super proud of being a terrible teacher? Weird flex but ok.

      1. MCMonkeyBean*

        I took a mechanical physics class for my lab credit in college and it was one of my lowest grades. I got my first ever “see me” note from a teacher on the first exam and was so mortified. But when I went to talk to the teacher he said “it’s my job to make sure you pass this class.” I spent a lot of time in his office hours that semester and I ended with a C. Even though it was one of my lowest grades I was really proud of how hard I worked to get it and I loved the teacher for how committed he was to making sure I could!

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      I’ve found that those who struggle to train and explain things, are not as smart as they claim they are either. They push back because they really can’t explain it.

      1. My Useless Two Cents*

        Only when they are snarky about it, in my experience.
        Two of the smartest co-workers I have are horrible at training. They are just so smart and have so much experience in the industry that they can’t comprehend you not getting it on the first go-round because it’s just so simple. However, they aren’t mean about it and very nice people. They just don’t understand why a college freshman wouldn’t understand quantum physics the first week of their physics 101 class (only a slight exaggeration). They are also fully willing to explain further but throw in so much institutional knowledge and history of the issue that it can cause further confusion.

        Does not sound like the case here with Lawrence and I agree with others that it’s probably best for all three newbies to take their concern to manager as soon as possible.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          It’s not smart to be unable to recognize that people without extensive training or experience in something would need more time to understand it.

          As AnotherOne says below, that doesn’t mean they will be great trainers, but being able to break things down into simpler components and being able to recognize and understand where the other person needs training is a pretty basic part of understanding a concept.

          I’ve worked with a lot of people who others say are super smart, and I’m not buying it – if they can’t actually explain it to me, I think they just have trouble communicating, not that they are so smart. Because I’ve also listened to people explaining things way over my head, and they can explain it so I can get the gist of it.

          Or maybe I’m jaded by people thinking computer geeks are so smart, when I know that most of us really are not, many are just lousy communicators who think they are smart. A truly nice person will recognize that they are failing to communicate, and will lay it at their own door, will not want the other person to feel dumb.

          1. Kit*

            I’ve absolutely run into situations where I have realized that my subject-matter knowledge is so far beyond newbies to the topic that I end up doing this sort of thing to them accidentally! Sometimes I can pump the brakes and start again to establish a common base of terminology and knowledge to work from, and at least once in the past year I’ve had to say “Look, I’m having trouble remembering the good intro sources for this because it all feels obvious to me, I’m like a fish being asked to define water. That’s not your fault, but it means we need someone with more skill at explaining it than I have, so let’s get you hooked up with the right person to help you dip your toes in.” I don’t especially enjoy passing the buck like that, but acknowledging that the root issue is mine usually helps the novice feel less like they’re a burden.

            1. TeaCoziesRUs*

              I think that is actually a wonderful way to explain why you can’t dig into your mental archives far back enough to explain it at a basic level. I wouldn’t see it as demeaning if I were the wonder-er.

          2. MigraineMonth*

            I’m in a technical role that works closely with non-technical customers. I have two other technical people on my team who are great but get themselves in trouble when they try to explain technical issues to our customers. One tends to go into so much technical detail that they’ve actually thanked me for interrupting them. The other uses metaphors and goes into so little technical detail that the customers don’t understand their options.

            Then everyone looks to me and I say, “We can get it to you in two days with this crappy interface (demonstrates), or in a week with this better interface (demonstrates). Which do you want?”

          3. rebelwithmouseyhair*

            I’m not sure I get your drift here, but it’s totally possible to be very intelligent and understand very complex issues without being able to explain them. Being a good communicator is one kind of intelligence, tapping into psychology and requiring empathy, fathoming the existence of black holes and their role in the grand scheme of things is another.
            Being nice about other people not understanding your wacky explanation is something different entirely. It’s perfectly possible to be an intelligent jerk.

        2. MCMonkeyBean*

          I admit I am like this sometimes and I definitely crossed teacher off my potential list of careers early because of it lol. I do understand *why* people don’t know things of course, but it’s like once I learn something I sometimes can’t remember what it was like to ever not know it so then I can’t really explain how to bridge the gap.

          I took a niche job once where they were desperate for someone with very specific experience that I happened to have. I found out very quickly I really hate being the SME for this reason lol. I had to explain things to my bosses and I found it really difficult to get on the same page when they didn’t know as much about this niche area. So I much prefer being the one learning to the one teaching at work!

          Training is definitely a skill and lots of people are bad at it–but certainly that doesn’t have to translate to being such an ass about it!

      2. AnotherOne*

        that’s my feeling. often if you can’t explain something, it’s because you don’t really understand it.

        it’s not always the case. i’m still trying to perfect how to train people for my job because there was never a training system until i came along. so every time, i sorta go- okay, last time didn’t work- what about this? and it’s a lot of information so you are trying to give all this information without overwhelming people.

        i’ve gotten better at it. but it’s definitely still not perfected.

        or it’s so easy for you to understand- you can’t explain something in easy terms. that’s the other option. still makes someone a terrible trainer though.

    5. Statler von Waldorf*

      Being rude to their trainer in this situation would be the dumbest thing the LW could do.

      Alison’s advice here is good and I would recommend following it. This suggestion to imitate a snarky teenager instead of acting like a professional is terrible. It’s performative outrage at it’s worst.

      1. The other sage*

        I agree. The suggestion is good if you just role-play it, or imagine it in your head if it helps to release some tension, but doing it in real life makes it easy for others to paint you as the bad guy.

      2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Wow, no. Do not call fellow commenters dumb and immature because you disagree with them.

        BTW, you seem to be the one performing here. Are you sure you’re not Lawrence?

        1. Statler von Waldorf*

          Yes, I’m sure I’m not Lawrence, bless your heart.

          If you believe my comment violates the rules of this comment section, I suggest you
          follow the commenting rules yourself and flag this comment by replying to it with a link so that Alison sees it. This is her space, and she is free to remove my comments if she feels that I have broken the rules or if she feels that my comment is too unkind.

          I stand by what I said. That advice was terrible and it needed to be called out.

        2. rebelwithmouseyhair*

          Statler is calling the suggestion dumb, not the people doing the suggesting.
          You’re suggesting they are Lawrence which is tantamount to calling them a jerk, which is worse.

          Statler is simply taking the suggesters a little too literally, given that most of the suggestions are given in a spirit of “I would have trouble not saying…” or “I’m petty so I would say”, or “it would feel really good to say…”. The OP clearly said they can’t risk alienating Lawrence, so they’re not going to take up these suggestions. They will probably enjoy the laugh though, which can be therapeutic in situations where you feel helpless.

        3. MCMonkeyBean*

          They didn’t call commenters anything, that was a perfectly reasonable comment. And they’re right–if they say mean things back to Lawrence then they lose any ground they have when talking to their boss.

      3. N C Kiddle*

        Yeah, it might be enormously satisfying to tell this horrible person off, but it would escalate the situation and chances are he’d come out with something even worse in response. Better to stay icily professional and bring it up to the boss how unreasonable he’s being.

  3. Former lab rat*

    You said two other people are having the same issue. That means you have strength in numbers! Are they also managed by your boss? Can the three of you request a meeting together? That way your boss may take the problem seriously.

    1. Casual Observer*

      Definitely agree. Boss might be able to shirk one employee requesting a meeting, but three employees urgently needing to see him is much harder to ignore.

      1. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

        Does this inaccessible boss have an admin? I agree that you should band together with your fellow trainees. If you can get to sn admin, beg 10 minutes, and promise to submit an agenda, do. I also suggest preparing with a pre-meet so you can present an agreed-upon case and not waste time. That also projects competence.

        1. Baela Targaryen*

          As an admin, I’d happily team up with OP to bring this prick to accountability.

    2. Zombeyonce*

      Agreed, they’re likely also going to have a hard time getting a meeting with the boss, so all three of y’all getting together to say the problem is real (a terrible trainer/colleague versus just a personality clash) will make a much bigger impact.

    3. Sloanicota*

      This was my thought. Do exactly as suggested, but see if the other two will join you, as it makes it much harder to just write you off as “oversensitive” or whatever. If one or both of the other people are reluctant, see if there is a version they’re comfortable with.

    4. Slow Gin Lizz*

      100% this. And as I said above, I wonder if this is the first time Lawrence has been training new employees and the higher ups have no idea how terrible he is.

      On the flip side, I wonder if Lawrence has done this before and if there are even more employees who could vouch for his awfulness. But I wouldn’t bother finding that out because that verges on gossip rather than being an actionable work issue.

    5. Coffee Protein Drink*

      Yes, this. This isn’t one nasty remark, it’s a lot and it’s unacceptable. Going to the manager in a group will show how much impact Lawrence is having.

      Is it just me or are patterns of behavior have coming up a lot this week?

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If Lawrence is training all three of these people, they should all go to Lawrence’s boss together.

    7. porridge fan*

      If any of the three are being managed by a different boss to OP, they could go to the other boss. Hypothetical other-boss trainee might just need some encouragement and support from OP to start the process.

    8. MCMonkeyBean*

      Yeah the numbers are definitely important here. I think we see a lot of frustrated letters here from both trainers and trainees, so if you can have three people all saying that Lawrence is behaving appallingly then there is no question as to where the problem is.

    9. Spero*

      I’d say they can also use the fact that there are three people training on the same thing to argue that the procedure being used now is inefficient. There should be written documentation or powerpoints with screenshots to create a consistent training used for all staff, training as a group, the opportunity for the 3 trainees to sit down and compare notes to confirm understanding with each other vs just going straight to Lawrence for everything. Also, having written procedures to refer to can interrupt/pace out an infodumping/stream of consciousness monologue on how to do the job by providing a structure/reference points to bring things back to.

      Lawrence is absolutely a jerk and bad at training, but I can see how someone who usually keeps those tendencies to a low simmer/under manager radar might be pushed over the edge into straight up a hole territory by being voluntold to juggle repeating the same training three times a day to three different people while doing their own work too.

  4. The Cosmic Avenger*

    OP, I understand your hesitancy, but he’s already doing less than the bare minimum I’d expect from him if he were my employee. Don’t forget that if he tries to spite you for using the the strategies that Alison suggested, that would be even more actionable than what he’s doing now, which is pretty bad to begin with.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      OP, a good manager would WANT to know! A good manager definitely cares that their employee is being disrespectful to other employees and that their trainer is negatively impacting the new hires!

  5. Antilles*

    And be specific — repeat the same quotes you used in your letter, because this isn’t Lawrence just acting a little put-upon; this is insulting and borderline abusive.
    This is critical. Don’t leave it unclear or soft-pedal the message with “well, I’ve been having some trouble with Lawrence” because that might end with the boss not realizing the extent of the problem. Be specific about how he’ll roll off 30 straight items without stopping, direct quote his condescending quotes, and go into detail about how he refuses to answer questions.
    The clearer you can be with your boss, the more likely it is that you’ll get a resolution.

    1. witch*

      yes! some people often have a tendency to underplay personality issues at work because there’s a sense that there’s nothing to be done about the situation. but A) that isn’t true. B) it’s not your problem.

      your problem isn’t the root cause of WHY it’s happening, it’s THAT it’s happening. Be clear and direct, and give your manager all the information they need to understand the problem.

      1. Baela Targaryen*

        And if OP is a woman, they just hear “woman complaining about something” and not “a professional making a very relevant point”

        1. jez chickena*

          Especially if Lawrence is considered to be a good technical resource, this type has enormous sticking power despite how difficult or miserably they conduct themselves.

        2. Typity*

          Oh, dear. Is it possible that all three new hires are women? That adds another and even darker element to Lawrence’s bullying.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        Don’t even frame it as a personality issue, if you can avoid that. It’s a work output issue: he is supposed to be providing training and is failing to do so.

    2. Pizza Rat*

      Especially, “I thought you were competent.” That’s so far over the line it’s in another country.

    3. Csethiro Ceredin*

      Yes, Lawrence would just say “what? No, I encouraged them to come back if they had any questions” and gloss over the appalling way he reacts when they do. He probably said all the right things about being happy to train, too.

      The boss needs examples. And these examples speak loudly.

    4. Gamer Girl*

      Yes. Do not use any softening language. I had a near-identical situation with a colleague, right down to repeating the statement, “How can you be competent at this? You’ve never done it before,” as a direct response to my portion of a critical task, which he then refused to do, citing my “incompetence.”

      Let’s call him Mr. Talented.

      After bringing this up directly with my manager, I documented, in writing, the statements to the best of my memory.

      The first time, it was not handled well. My manager was incredibly angry at how upper management fumbled the situation and offered further, legal measures that he would take the lead on. I declined (in hindsight, I should have taken them, but I just wanted to not think about it all at the time). My manager took over dealing with Mr Talented directly while I worked with Mr Talented’s lovely manager who funneled work to Mr Talented (or did it himself when Mr Talented refused).

      At some point, upper management considered Mr Talented reformed. My manager checked in with me frequently about the situation on the rare occasions I directly worked with him and made it clear that I should only ever interact with Mr Talented in writing through official channels.

      A week and a half later, Mr Talented had an issue with my work. I’d done my part of an essential task and handed over my corrections on his work. My work was objectively correct, but Mr Talented has major issues handling feedback. He was foolish enough to put a mini rant about this in writing on a dozen tickets, essentially telling me that I didn’t have a clue what I was doing and that he would not correct his work because he was right.

      I had also received an email the day before from HIS manager asking if I could “just go along” with Mr Talented to keep the peace… as he didn’t have time to do Mr Talented’s work for him (!!!)

      I called my manager immediately as I screenshot everything and forwarded it to him. He joined me in copying all the evidence to back everything up asap. He was fuming but gleeful that he had everything in writing (this was his plan all along!) He took everything to the highest level of management and told me to take the rest of the day off while he dealt with the situation.

      The following morning, I had a meeting with the entirety of upper management who personally apologized to me for not dealing with Mr Problem. (This was a weird situation, and at the time I soft pedaled. I wish I had been more assertive, but having several men apologizing to you all at once for not taking you seriously is an unexpected situation!) They also didn’t invite my manager, which made it even weirder.

      Me Talented was not fired. He should have been, but there is a perception that he is just too talented to let go.

      He was reassigned to the worst, grunt level work in his department for several years.

      The first time he was allowed to go to a major meeting to give input for his department, he openly criticized another woman’s presentation in a meeting with many attendees from many departments.

      Mr. Talented was subsequently forbidden by upper management to interact with anyone except his own department but allowed to keep his job after fulfilling a PIP…

      You see, he’s always been an a******, to everyone in the company, not just women generally in the company and “that’s just how he is.”

      Just typing all that out makes me realize: even though a great manager can make a huge difference in the short to mid term, if the company’s upper management structurally refuses to deal with these kinds of guys, you are not well served by staying there.

      So, OP: all that to say, please value your mental health and self worth more than I did. If you see patterns repeating with this guy, start job searching and try to get out. Don’t soft pedal when you talk about the situation with management, and document everything asap so that you have written proof, especially if he writes you any of this in private chats.

  6. witch*

    busy people will always be busy. part of being a manager, though, is the expectation that sometimes you need to drop whatever it is you’re doing to address a major issue. and this IS a major issue.

    your boss needs to understand – If you can’t schedule a meeting with them, email them. put a little red ! in the email and lay out the problem, then end with a call to action of “can we talk about this in person on Wednesday?” or something specific. Help them understand the seriousness of the issue, especially if Lawrence is talking this way to other employees.

    1. Zombeyonce*

      Emailing that it’s an urgent issue is also a good way to start a paper trail, because if LW just CANNOT get time with their boss (which is ridiculous), the next stop is HR.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Seconding. For stuff like this, you want a paper trail.

        I confess I don’t feel super hopeful about this place because and abusive trainer and unavailable boss sound like the who shebang is understaffed and/or poorly run, but fingers crossed I’m wrong.

        1. ferrina*

          Agree. This has all the marks of a toxic workplace.

          A functional workplace understands that onboarding is an investment in the business. When you get a new employee, you need to get them up to speed as quickly as possible and ensure that they are empowered to get their critical questions answered. That’s how the new hires get the info they need to do their job.

          The dumbest way to approach this is to treat onboarding as a burden, appoint a crappy trainer, and expect the new hires to train themselves. No one will ever be up to their top performance if they don’t get the information they need.

    2. TPS Reporter*

      how is this person actually a boss if they have no time/are unwilling to talk to their team? They’re not managing!

    3. el l*

      I think the other following moves should be tried so as to get time with the boss:

      (1) Bring the two colleagues to the meeting, armed with exact quotes from Lawrence, and showing this is a pattern of unprofessional treatment;
      (2) Force the issue by sending them a meeting invite, or emailing their minder or whoever/whatever controls their schedule.

      And if that doesn’t work, then it’s time to escalate this to HR with the paper trail that, well, you tried but boss won’t do their management responsibilities.

      1. Jackalope*

        It’s also a situation where in some cases you could just stop by the boss’s office and wait until you can take a few minutes. This may not be an option here but if it is that might be more effective than waiting for an offficial meeting.

  7. RB*

    Lawrence is a prick!

    When I was training someone recently (first time I’d ever done it, so I was a bit uncertain) they had a habit of apologising every time they asked a question; I eventually told them that they didn’t need to apologise, I’d much rather they asked things than suffered in silence! Behaving like Lawrence is so obviously the wrong/least successful way of getting results.

    1. Michigander*

      I came back from maternity leave in March and started managing someone who started the week I came back. She still apologizes at the beginning of basically every email she sends me. I’ve told her time and time again that she doesn’t have to, that it is literally my job to train her and not an imposition, but she still does it. I just ignore it now and figure it’s probably her communication style.

      1. Sloanicota*

        Ideally, the person training sees it as an *advantage* to have a competently-trained coworker in the role, taking things off their plate (not always the case I understand). I always used to say “don’t thank me / apologize, you’re doing me a huge favor taking this on, or “it will make my job easier to have someone handling this, so I should be thanking you!”

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          I used to have a grandboss who apologized before she asked any question, going into a long-winded explanation about how she wanted to know all the details about a thing so that’s why she asked stupid questions. It was frustrating when we were in meetings with outside vendors because it would take her an extra minute or two (with all the back and forth “there are no stupid questions” rhetoric from the vendors) to just get to her question. In situations where she was asking me the question, I would cut her off at the pass and when she said, “Can I ask a stupid question?” I’d say, “Sure, what’s your question?” as she started to launch into her explanation. In the almost three years I worked with her, I was never able to break her of the habit and it got really old really fast.

          At that same job, I had an incompetent and similarly long-winded coworker who would ask ridiculous questions to make herself sound smart. In her case, they were questions that she should have learned the answers to months earlier. On one very memorable occasion she said, “I’m just asking this question because I don’t know the answer,” which amused me very much (and precious little about her amused me, unfortunately).

          It would be amusing to see how Lawrence would deal with training people like them….they kind of deserve each other, tbh.

          1. MigraineMonth*

            There was a point when I was new in my career where I used to “ask a stupid question” when I realized something critical had been overlooked. Then I decided to stop undermining myself, so now I ask questions without pretending they’re dumb.

    2. goddessoftransitory*

      I’ve trained a lot at my job, and one thing I emphasize is that they are getting a LOT of information in a short period of time, so to ask ask ask when they are uncertain on how to proceed! It’s not that any one thing is too complicated, but that there’s lots of things, and many of them involve “what to do in case of X” which may not come up regularly, so they may not recall the protocol.

      I would rather have people ask me anything rather than try to fix work arounds, 99% of the time.

  8. mango chiffon*

    Can you and the other two colleagues band together on this? I’m assuming you all have the same boss, but if you can go together to your boss and force a meeting that would be easier. When a group of my colleagues came together and went to HR about our horrible manager, it felt a lot better to go as a group and we felt it helped emphasize the severity of the issue.

  9. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    Not everyone who is good at a job is also good at teaching. That does not excuse Patrick’s behavior. It’s just further evidence that he is unsuitable for the role of trainer.

    This is definitely a boss issue. Don’t bother dealing with Patrick, get with your boss immediately and explain how your training is substandard. Encourage the other two to do the same.

      1. Goody*

        Adding a few letters to call him synonym-for-male-anatomy without actually calling him that?

        1. I should really pick a name*

          Lost me on this one. How do you convert Patrick to a synonym for male anatomy?

        1. The Canadian*

          Funny, your comment made me realise that Lawrence and Patrick kind of stick in my head as similar names. Maybe because they are both Irish saints? (St Laurence O’Toole, not original flavour St Lawrence.)

    2. Zelda*

      “Not everyone who is good at a job is also good at teaching.”

      Say it louder for the people in the back! Teaching is a skill.

  10. HR Friend*

    LW, I’m not one to recommend HR lightly, even though my username might suggest otherwise!

    They’d be interested in this, if they’re at all involved in new hire onboarding or employee experience. If an entire cohort of new hires at my company was being talked to like Lawrence is talking to your group, I’d intervene directly with your boss in the interest of retention, employee experience, and just.. humanity. Your boss might not seem like he has time for you, but he’d make time for an HR complaint. If your HR is any good, you can go that route without it blowing back on you.

    1. A Library Person (Again)*

      I’d say this is especially true if there’s a chance this is related to a protected class, such as race, gender, or age. If the same qualifier applies to all of the new hires (i.e., if everyone Lawrence is speaking to this way is a woman), there could very well be legal issues at play as well depending on your jurisdiction. That is not in any way to diminish Lawrence’s behavior- it’s appalling regardless of who he’s talking to- but it might offer an additional angle as you escalate this.

    2. goddessoftransitory*

      This, OP.

      People like Lawrence make EVERYONE’S job harder. The trainees, their managers, HR who has to deal with unhappy employees, the fellow workers who have to meet a constant stream of new hires as the last batch quits rather than put up with being insulted…

  11. PurlsOfWisdom*

    Commenting as someone who has a ridiculously busy boss who is notorious at my company for being “impossible to schedule time with”. If I drop her a note saying I need some time with her for something that has come up, she makes time for me. EVERY TIME.

    Get your coworkers together and contact your boss (email, chat, in person, whatever works) and let them know that a pressing issue means you all need a few minutes of their time.

    Also to echo Alison and other commenters. DO NOT water down the message. Your boss absolutely needs to know how bad this problem is. And, to be clear, it is spectacularly bad.

  12. Pippa K*

    “I thought you were assigned to help train me.”

    “I know training people can be hard. I’d be happy to ask Boss if someone else could take it on if you want.” (And you could also tell your boss that Lawrence seems to be “struggling” with the training role.)

    Seems unwise to *ask* Lawrence any version of “am I doing ok” or “have I misunderstood your role” or anything else that gives him an opening to assert his take on things. You know his take on things, it’s wrong, you can just declaratively, civilly address this. And don’t feel bad about doing it – it would be an act of professionalism and confidence.

    1. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

      Good point!! It’s not “did I misunderstand your role” but “you seem not to want to do your job, I’ll let Boss know I need someone else to train me”.

      Not in those exact words probably, but that’s the message.

    2. Lana Kane*

      Seems unwise to *ask* Lawrence any version of “am I doing ok” or “have I misunderstood your role” or anything else that gives him an opening to assert his take on things. You know his take on things, it’s wrong, you can just declaratively, civilly address this.

      Fully agree. This just ends up coming as passive at best, passive aggressive at worst. There is no misunderstanding of the role, and it’s clear that Lawrence isn’t a good judge of how the trainee is doing. Name the issue in a neutral way.

    4. ferrina*

      Yes, don’t give Lawrence a chance to tell you how wrong you are, since it’s pretty clear that he will not hesitate to berate you. If you decide to say something to him, it should be a statement, not a question.

  13. Ashley Armbruster*

    OMG This letter made me so ragey. It takes me back to this horrid place I worked at years ago. One of the things my boss would always say if I asked a question or tried to clarify his unclear communication was “you’re not listening”. Horrible, sexist man.

    LW, I don’t have advice on this terrible man. It’s a him problem, you are doing nothing wrong. Please take care of yourself because he’s probably going to get worse.

  14. Someone*

    Lawrence has a ridiculous attitude. I have trained new starters before in certain things. I welcome all questions. If someone asks a question, I haven’t covered the topic yet or I haven’t explained it very well. It is my duty to clarify anything that is unclear.

    Does he answer the questions to a reasonable standard after insulting you? If not, he’s wasting your time and the companies’ time.
    If he is answering questions to a reasonable standard, he’s doing something right at least, even if his attitude is wrong. Perhaps he can improve his conduct from there.

    To misquote Star Trek Voyager:
    “I would question everything you say.”
    “You would not be a worthy pupil otherwise.”

    1. ferrina*

      Part of being a good trainer is being approachable for questions. If you aren’t approachable, people won’t come to you with questions when they need to. Plenty of people would rather avoid an unapproachable trainer and muddle through than actually ask a question (especially if they know they won’t get a comprehensible answer).

    2. Zelda*

      I like the quote! Do you recall any more specifics of the original? (The last line sounds like maybe Tuvok?)

      1. Someone*

        Actually, Tuvok was the pupil. He needed to learn emotional control after problems at school. He asked many difficult questions and received many patient answers.

  15. Buffalo*

    Is “waterfall” some business lingo I don’t know, and what does it mean in this context? Maybe Lawrence should, if I may quote a pre-eminent group of management consultants from my youth, NOT go chasing waterfalls.

    There’s simply no excuse for him to be unkind. I (not a trainer, just a manager) have recently been thrown into a situation where I’m training a new employee on skills I don’t really have myself, and also, I don’t really know how to train. She doesn’t pick everything up right away. When that happens, I…look in the mirror and try a different approach. I don’t hurl abusive invective at her. I’m sorry you’re going through this, LW.

    1. Nocturna*

      I think “waterfall” was meant in the sense of “cascade” or “torrent”, so basically Lawrence is giving non-stop information too fast for LW to process or take notes on.

    2. Silver Robin*

      I interpreted that as “torrent of information” similar to the speed/intensity of water coming down a waterfall. I have heard “firehose” used in a similar way by trainers, but usually they are saying something like “I know you all are getting firehosed with all of this, just try to remember what you can and come back with what you have questions about as you get started.”

    3. I strive to Excel (formerly WPX)*

      There’s a waterfall chart but that doesn’t seem to be what OP is referencing (all resources I can find point to them being used to show the effects of cumulative changes). I’d guess in this case waterfall is being used similarly to “drink from a firehose” – an uncontrolled deluge of knowledge.

      I agree that the unkindness is the biggest problem here. I’ve trained a few people in little things and been trained in my own turn. I can deal with a bit of disorganized information-sharing, but not this outright abusiveness.

    4. Arthenonyma*

      I assume it just means that the topics spill out uncontrollably with no pauses or time to digest. Like water rushing over a waterfall.

  16. Goody*

    Two other new hires are having the same problem. Are they ALSO being told to go Lawrence specifically with their questions or do they have different “mentors”. If the former, Lawrence may be completely overwhelmed with trying to support three coworkers (and no this does NOT excuse the attitude and behavior, just provide a possible explanation). If not, this is a red flag for the entire company to me.

    I absolutely agree that all three of you need to go to management together. If your own boss is so completely unreachable (another red flag), then go to your grand-boss or HR or at this point anyone upstream.

    Good luck to all and please do update!!

    1. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Yeah, I’m not getting good vibes from this company if they’ve put Lawrence in charge of training new employees, but I’m trying to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that maybe Lawrence is just so good at what he does they don’t know that he’s not good at explaining what he does to others. But that depends on whether this is L’s first time training new employees or if he’s done it a bunch before and others have complained about his style and the company continues to make him the trainer. Add to that the fact that OP’s boss is hard to schedule mtgs with and I’m not loving how things are going for OP at this company. My reading on it could be completely wrong but from what OP has written things don’t sound great, unfortunately.

      1. ferrina*

        yeah, I’m also deeply skeptical of this company. An unapproachable trainer + unreachable boss = bad situation. That’s going to limit OP’s ability to succeed and enhance their career.
        This isn’t something where OP needs to quit today, but OP might want to mentally prep to start the job search again.

    2. Paint N Drip*

      My immediate response to this was this – he’s probably overwhelmed. Not an excuse, but a reason. DEFINITELY still something to bring up to management!! (Ideally HE would bring up to management as well from his perspective)

    3. Wot, no sugar?*

      This might be something to take to HR. If they are even minimally competent, I should think they’d want to address this, especially as there could be a sexist element involved.

  17. Kat*

    I’m not saying this to excuse Lawrence’s behavior, but it sounds like he has been trying to do his regular duties and train 3 employees at the same time. If your boss is unavailable to you, they’re probably also unavailable to Lawrence. Sounds stressful to me. Obviously he’s not handling it well. Perhaps you and your co-workers ought to check with each other about knowledge gaps (maybe he’s trained a co-worker on something you have not been trained on yet, and they can teach you), then approach Lawrence as a group so he is not having to individually teach everyone.

    1. TPS Reporter*

      the manager really does have to be handling this. It does sound like a lot for Lawrence to handle so the manager should strategize to come up with a more efficient training regimen.

      they could for example ask Lawrence to write down/record some things that are common/standard processes.

    2. Meep*

      I get that. I’ve been there. I work for a start-up so it is pretty common to wear different hats. And at one point I was the only employee with a bunch of intern contractors. With that said, the comments are so far out of line that regardless of what he is feeling, a manager needs to be involved. If he is snapping and verbally berating employees because he is stressed, he needs to address that separately on his own time. Training incompetent employees and letting them flounder is just going to make his job more difficult in the long run, anyway.

    3. Pizza Rat*

      It’s especially stressful if Lawrence feels threatened, but that is a him problem that he shouldn’t be taking out on people he’s trying to train. If it’s too much for him, he should be looping in the manager to talk about his workload.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      He’s 100% handling this badly. If you’re given more responsibility than you can handle, the solution is never to take it out on other people who have no power over you (and, in fact, even if technically on the same level, have slightly less power than you in that they need you to train them).

      More appropriate would be “I have a lot to do. I wish I had more time and energy to train you properly, but you have my full attention for the next ___ minutes.”

    6. HonorBox*

      This could be the case. However, that doesn’t give Lawrence the right to say what he’s been saying. If he’s stressed, he needs to figure out the solution without taking something out on others. There are a variety of ways to solve this, with or without the manager. But it is on Lawrence to find that, and not to be a jerk.

    7. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      You’re being far too considerate. Why would you give anyone a pass on insulting their colleagues? There are no extenuating circumstances where that’s okay behavior.

      Your solution is also not a good idea. The newbies don’t know what they don’t know. They cannot be training each other just because Lawrence is an ass who can’t behave professionally.

    8. Been there, done that*

      I feel for Lawrence. I’m wondering how long he has been training and if the mentees aren’t picking up the concepts and ideas quickly or at all. I’ve seen this in tech. Company hires someone with a completely different background that maybe earned a beginning certification and then the engineers have to “train” and mentor with onboarding. And this person was hired in at Lawrence’s level. I’m guessing frustration is high. He’s probably working his job and having to train people at “his” level. Sounds like to me OP isn’t where they are supposed to be skillwise. And Lawrence is fed up with the OP.

      1. RTLETL*

        The letter writer said that, among other things, Lawrence would explain a bunch of things all at once and then get frustrated that the LW didn’t perfectly understand it all. That is a total failure of training, no matter anything else. Furthermore, the other trainees are having that happen to them as well, so if it is true that they aren’t up to speed then it is actually a problem that they were hired in the first place, and that exhibits a whole other problem (why is that workplace so bad at hiring that all new employees are actually not at the level they need?).

    9. ThatOtherClare*

      Boo-hoo poor Lawrence. I’m sorry, lashing out at other people when you’re stressed is something that we train out of children before first grade. If he’s having problems not doing that, it’s his responsibility to seek assistance via therapy, the company’s EAP (if they have one), free apps, take your pick. It is not the letter writer’s role to pick up the slack for Lawrence and invent ways to work around him to protect everyone from his verbal abuse.

      If Lawrence had been polite but busy or flustered, and had suggested this idea himself as a way to reduce his training load, I’d have a very different opinion. But in no way is the letter writer obligated to try and read his mind, and anticipate and alleviate all his possible stresses like a 1950’s housewife.

  18. Valerie Loves Me*

    This reminds me of my very first job. I was an assistant and the person training me was A) a senior associate and B) leaving the following month. So she was not hard pressed (or interested) in really helping me learn the ropes. I remember asking a process question about a database they used. And rather than reiterating the process or … answering the question… she made me start the process from the very beginning. To be clear, my question was really moreso about the background of the process, rather than not understanding a step.

    For the entirety of my training with her, she literally made me feel like I was the dumbest person in the world. A feeling that unfortunately tinged my entire working experience at the company. And one that my boss both reinforced, but then also didn’t reinforce. (She thought I was great, sometimes excellent, except when she had to give me a raise to validate it. At which point I had great potential.)

    My advice, in hindsight 20 years later, is to recognize this as a them problem. Not a you problem. You’re new. You’re allowed to have questions, even about things you might know but function differently at your current organization. Remember that. Tuck it in the back of your brain. Keep being you. And when you have a moment with your supervisor, discuss it with them to reinforce that you’re on the right track.

  19. JustKnope*

    I wouldn’t use any of the questions proposed in the answer. I would calmly and directly push back using the start of the language and then see how Lawrence responds. Don’t open up the avenue for more abuse, imo. Normally it’s good to ask questions and dig into whether you really are behind the curve, but it doesn’t seem like Lawrence is in a position to answer that kindly, accurately or fairly. Agree with the other commenters to go to the boss as a group.

  20. Lizabeth*

    The evil me would suggest working together with two employees to tag team asking the prick for clarifications continuously. However, the work me strongly suggests bypassing the prick and raise this issue with the boss or HR instead. Do not engage said prick any further on the issues.

  21. Jiminy Cricket*

    All of them are bad, but “I thought you were competent” is well outside professional norms (at least where I work).

    That’s when you pull out, “I won’t be spoken to that way. I’ll come back when we can do this civilly.”

    1. Elsa*

      Yes, I agree, this needs to be firmly but politely called out as an unacceptable way to talk to a coworker (or any fellow human being).

    2. Anonymous for this*

      Both my partner and I got the comment from some workplaces that “oh although you went to MIT, you aren’t that smart. is a lot smarter than you”. Our jaws dropped – and it wasn’t only one workplace. My reaction to Lawrence would be “like trainer, like trainee” (been there, done that), but I don’t generally recommend being snarky in these kinds of situations unless you are like me who is ready to deal with the consequences. :) Yes, OP, you need to find time with your manager.

  22. That Crazy Cat Lady*

    I sympathize. I had this problem at my current job. The lady who trained me was terrible. She wouldn’t answer my questions or actually show me anything. She’d literally turn around and walk away while I was in the middle of asking her something. I sent her messages and emails that were never responded to. And so on.

    Now I’m still here, and she was let go a while back (nothing to do with me, but from what I understand she had other performance issues).

    It irks me when companies just assign anybody to train new hires. People who do the training need to be competent, patient, and able to explain things well. I can’t tell you how many would-be-good employees have been driven away from a company simply due to mediocre/unkind trainers.

  23. pally*

    “I already mentioned this to you once before.”

    Hmm, I wonder if Lawrence might consent -on record-to the OP recording all future interactions to capture any supposed missed information. In the interest of reducing future interactions with the OP.

    You know where I’m going with this.

    1. Space Needlepoint*

      “I thought you were competent,” burns my buns. You can be an expert in your field and in the common tasks at a job but that doesn’t mean you instantly know processes and policies and procedures in a new position.

      I would both go to the manager AND tell Lawrence when he’s out of line.

      1. Space Needlepoint*

        Nesting fail. This should have been its own comment.

        and yes, I know where you’re going with this, but Lawrence might be savvy enough to curb his vile comments when being recorded.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Honestly that’s a potential improvement – Maybe it’s not revenge , but it would get him to treat his trainees appropriately.

    2. HonorBox*

      I like this. Or similarly, maybe use email to ask Lawrence all questions. Then a) you have that to reference and b) you can share any insults he hurls or belittling language he uses very easily.

  24. Frodo*

    The next time he hurls an insult at you, ask him to repeat what he said. Then ask if he seriously just said that. Then ask if he can repeat it again, just so that you’re 100 percent sure you heard him correctly. The comment becomes meaningless the more he repeats it.

  25. Margaret Cavendish*

    I love Angry Alison – Lawrence is indeed a raging asshole, and deserves to be called out for his behaviour.

    OP, please find a way to talk to your boss, using the exact language you used in your letter. Or if not your boss, you can talk to HR, or probably anyone in a position of leadership at your company. Even if they’re not in your direct reporting line, they’ll know how to bring in your boss or whoever else needs to know.

    Good luck!

  26. Meep*

    Lawrence is jelly people are getting promoted over him and is now trying to limit that.

    I wonder if there is a more sympathetic coworker who can field questions?

  27. Parenthesis Guy*

    The one thing worries me is that the boss assigned you to Lawrence for a reason. Presumably, it’s because the boss thinks he’s good at the job and they have a good rapport. Which means that even if it’s all of your words against his, the boss may take Lawrence’s side.

    Honestly, this sounds like it could be a toxic situation. If I had to keep this job, I’d try to work together with those two other new hires and only come to Lawrence when it’s something that all three of you can’t figure out.

    1. Tiredofit all*

      Well, it could be that Lawrence has time on his hands and boss does not want to tie up the better people.

      I agree toxic.

    2. Hyaline*

      The boss may have no clue how Lawrence is with fellow employees, and may have no rapport to speak of with him, either–he may have had extra time to do training, be considered more experienced/expert in what LW needs training in, or others might already have leadership or training assignments. While that means it may come as a shock to the boss that he’s been such a pustule and that can be its own challenge, I wouldn’t jump to “toxic work environment from top to bottom” just because one guy is awful and maybe has his boss fooled.

    3. sparkle emoji*

      I agree that there’s a reason Lawrence was picked and that that’s concerning, but I think there are other reasons besides boss really likes Lawrence. LW mentions that they’re one of 3 new hires and Lawrence has a relatively long tenure in the role. He could be the obvious choice due to other team members being too new. Since he’s not working out, they need a non-obvious choice, but I can see why they’d start with the senior team member.

    4. Broadway Duchess*

      This is not necessarily the case. When I started at my company almost 10 years ago, I had a similar situation where the person assigned to train me was very… unpleasant. Not overtly so, like Lawrence, but more insidious. she didn’t want to teach me anything and she was rarely around for questions. I went to my manager with examples and asked for her input and I was reassigned to someone who, in 8 hours, gave me more than I got in 2 weeks. My manager told me later that the first trainer had been with the company for 7 years, but I was her first trainee. They wanted to see if she was ready to move into a supervisory role, so that’s why she was given the job of training me.

      FWIW, the co-worker and I never found a goodrapport with each other and when I took over the team, I eventually had to term her.

      1. Parenthesis Guy*

        I think the key difference between your story and this story is that you were able to go your manager whereas this person has been told they can’t have a meeting with their manager.

        Maybe this means that the manager is busy so if a team member wants to talk with him he’ll reach out with a time, but maybe that means the manager doesn’t want his team members talking to him.

        1. Broadway Duchess*

          Agreed, but my point was more that jumping the gun to assuming the manager will believe Lawrence is premature. Manager might do that (he certainly seems ineffectual enough to be a real possibility) or he could equally be assuming all is well.

          I will say, my manager wasn’t really that available to me, either. I basically ambushed her in the break room to get a minute with her where I asked when (not if) she had 10 minutes to give me guidance on the situation. In my manager’s case, she was not awful, more like inattentive until you waved a yellow card in her face.

    5. ThatOtherClare*

      I worked in an organisation with a Lawrence once. He was picked as trainer because he’d managed to set up a self-fulfilling cycle where he’d train people poorly, then make out to the boss that everyone else was stupid because they didn’t understand what they’d been trained on. This made Lawrence look really smart and good at his job by comparison, so obviously he was the natural choice to train people. Thus the cycle would continue. Many people simply quit.

      This only stopped when a very smart guy called Jeremy managed to white-knuckle his way through the training process by doing a lot of self-teaching after hours. He then later did a sort of secret double-up training of the next new hire and slowly built up his reputation as ‘good with new people’ (he was the sort of person who actually enjoys teaching people new things and seeing them succeed AND was somehow smart enough to do that and all of his own work – he was either wasted on that job or destined for it, I’m still not sure). Lawrence hated this, but there was nothing he could do. I was happy to leave that place, it was definitely toxic.

  28. WantonSeedStitch*

    Wow. If your manager refuses to meet with you, OP, send them an email with all the information about what’s going on. Mark it high priority. If they don’t respond, do it again next time Lawrence pulls a Lawrence, and include in the email, “I emailed you previously about Lawrence’s behavior on [date].” If they don’t respond to that, I would look to go over their head and talk to THEIR manager. Let them know, “I’ve tried to meet in person with Manager about this but their schedule hasn’t permitted it. I’ve sent them two emails about this on two separate occasions, and have not received a response. Can you help with this?”

  29. kiki*

    Lawrence is a terrible trainer and it seems likely he’s a rude person in life generally too. There’s a lot of terribleness to parse here but I want to dive deep on one of Lawrence’s statements:

    “I already mentioned this to you once before.”

    The average person needs to hear something two to seven times before they take action on it/ feel like they know it. If a trainer feels like mentioning something once only is enough, they are a poorly trained trainer. Part of good training is realizing you will need to go over the same thing more than once in multiple ways to make sure it sticks. Especially in a scenario with a new employee– they are being hosed with new information– a person is not capable of remembering absolutely everything mentioned.

    1. Slow Gin Lizz*

      Yes, 100000% this. And it sounds also like he’s just info-dumping and not at all taking the time to see if OP or the other trainees actually understand what he’s telling them, which means he’s the most terrible of trainers. Communication is a two-way street; you don’t just spout words and people automatically hear and understand them.

      I say this as a former teacher who 100% had to quit teaching because I had no patience with explaining the same things over and over again. Good teaching/training is really hard and I burned out on it quickly. I know quite a few people who have no problems whatsoever repeating the same info all the time and those people are excellent teachers. Lawrence obviously falls into my camp and also should not be a trainer.

      1. Cinnamon Stick*

        Communication is a two-way street; you don’t just spout words and people automatically hear and understand them.

        Exactly this. There’s no point in giving someone info if you don’t deliver it in a way they can absorb the information.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          My dad has a verbal processing disorder and is hard of hearing. We need to say things two or three times before he really understands what we are saying, and I feel like when you’re training someone new there’s so much information being flung at them that only the tiniest portion of it is making it into their brain. So, kind of a similar scenario, actually. And if any of your new people also have hearing, memory, or processing issues, then an even tinier portion of the info is making it into their brains. My point being, if you are a trainer, you gotta be sure your audience is retaining the information, not just hearing it fly past their heads.

    2. Zelda*

      “The average person needs to hear something two to seven times before they take action on it/ feel like they know it.”

      For a laboratory procedure, the usual rough outline for training is: 1) I give you the written procedure, you read it and take notes, and we discuss, during which I point out any unusual features and you ask me questions; 2) you watch me do the procedure, taking notes during and asking questions during (as safety permits) and after; 3) I watch you do the procedure, during which you consult the written procedure, consult your notes, and ask me questions as needed; 4) I am not far away the next several times you do the procedure, and expect to answer a few more questions as they pop up and to check your results. “Mentioned once” is not on the same planet as appropriate training. I once rejected a job applicant on the grounds that his interview responses seemed to indicate that he would not ask enough questions.

      1. pally*

        I worry when new hires don’t ask questions. Especially after prompting doesn’t elicit any change to that.

      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        My mom used to work for a contractor who did training for some of the gov’t’s customized computer programs. Their method was: 1. Trainer demonstrates the program and talks about what they’re doing; 2. Trainer talks the trainee through the program; 3. Trainee uses the program and explains what they’re doing. Essentially, 1. I show and tell, 2. You show, I tell, 3. You show and tell. Trainees could ask questions at any ol’ time, and they used to have small, easy quizzes at the end of each section of the course so that the trainees could show how much info they’d retained. I basically followed this procedure when I was showing people how to do stuff at my old job. No quizzes in my case, but once I’d let the employees loose to do the work on their own, I’d review it to make sure it was accurate and correct any errors.

        Obviously lab work has slightly less room for error, but our procedures are essentially the same idea and understand that people really don’t learn by being talked at.

      3. Goldenrod*

        ““Mentioned once” is not on the same planet as appropriate training.”

        +1000

        A lot of bad trainers seem to feel that they can do a big no-context information dump on an employee on their first day, and that somehow, this will be absorbed effortlessly like Neo plugging into the Matrix.

        It doesn’t work that way. It took me a long time – and being the “new person” a few times – before I realized that it’s normal to have to hear things a few times before it sinks in. You need to also be able to ask questions as you go through a new process. We’re not computers.

  30. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    Yeah back in the 70s this was common.

    We used to call it “punking”. We even nicknamed a slug who engaged in such behavior = Punko.

    It taught ME not to do that later in my career.

    1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

      Oh his best friend acquired a nickname but I can’t repeat it here.

  31. Garblesnark*

    Hi, LW.

    Others are giving you good advice, especially Alison. I also recommend you look up the Workplace Bullying Institute.

    People like Lawrence escalate when they don’t get pushback, and it’s really bad for your confidence. You need to push back, and there are tools on the website for how, based in research.

    I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

    1. cityMouse*

      I’d not heard of the Workplace Bullying Institute before, thank you for sharing this information!

  32. HonorBox*

    I hate Lawrence. What an absolute jerk.

    This is firmly boss territory. I don’t think I’d respond to Lawrence because he seems like someone who is going to take any sort of response, even professionally worded, negatively. Your boss needs to know that Lawrence is abusive and negative because that’s going to chase away good people in the long run. Plus if he’s not helping people get up to speed, work will slow down as you and others are having to take even more time to get up to speed. I’m guessing that if your boss is a good person, but just busy, if you ask for 10 minutes to discuss an urgent issue, that 10 minutes will become as much time as you need to get the problem solved. Hopefully they’ll be able to point you toward someone else who can actually help get you trained.

  34. Spicy Tuna*

    I worked with someone like this. He ended up resigning and checking himself into rehab – just a thought regarding your situation!

  35. sofar*

    Document all of this. If Lawrence is saying this in Slack, take screen shots. Also, if you can record meetings, record (and tell Lawrence you’re doing so, so that you can go back and reference). Honestly, I’d just hit record preemptively and if Lawrence balks at the “this meeting is being recorded” notification, respond, “I’m recording so I can go back and rewatch if I have a question later.” Lawrence has such an ego, he’ll probably tell on himself by saying this stuff in a recorded session.

  37. Erasmus*

    C? Is that you?

    Purely hypothetically, what would people suggest if you’d been warned at the interview that “Lawrence” can be difficult to deal with?

  38. Lab Snep*

    I had a trainer like that at a former job and whenever I brought up the toxic behaviour I got “Lol that’s just how she is”.

    And any mistake was met with weird punitive actions so much that at my current job I had a hard time adapting to a mostly non toxic environment.

  39. Audiophile*

    Oh man, OP, I’m sorry you’re dealing with such a jerk as a coworker. I’ve had people responsible for training me to act rudely before, similar to the behavior Lawrence is displaying.

    Somewhat related, I once had an interviewer say to my face, ‘I thought you were creative; I’m looking for someone creative in this role.’ They had given me a surprise test, asking me to critique their marketing materials. I’ve never had a test like that before or since during an interview, and it seems telling that the job was open again in less than a year.

    Some people have no filter and are entirely comfortable being rude to someone’s face.

  40. Toot Sweet*

    Wow! If I treated people this way when they’re here for training, I’d lose my job. Lawrence sounds like such a self-important jerk, and he needs to be taken down a few pegs (or more than a few).

  41. Busy Middle Manager*

    I am 90% on your side and think Lawrence isn’t a great trainer. Even if someone is a bad hire, I still give them a bit of grace in the form of “maybe watch some Tableau videos first” instead of saying “wow you can’t use Tableau.”

    That being said, I’d do an honest inventory and see if anything is missing from the story. For example, me working in data analysis at the mid-career-level, it is a red flag if someone needs too much help. Not because we don’t like to talk and offer ideas, but because they’re going to need to use past cases and mental frameworks and codes to figure out future situations. So while we can help in individual cases, I can’t consistently provide a sounding board.
    Also I’d be weary of how I ask for help. There is a big difference between “how do I calculate taxes” vs. “I made a quick query and dug out an old one from the shared drive but the results are different.”

    If he’s still a jerk, you might want to try pushing out work and have them come back later if there is an error. You may be surprised that you never hear from them, and having minor errors in the beginning is fine, part of the corporate culture.

    You may be 100% great but trainers may also have bad memories from helping past employees. I’ve trained people who need me to tell them every step how to think, I’ve had people say in the gossip mill that there is no training docs, even though I gave them a bunch in a shared drive and also see they never made a login to the library I gave them access to. And these are otherwise nice people, not even under-performers.

  42. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

    Absent being able to go to the boss or HR, which ideally would be the first choices, are there any other coworkers, even in adjacent departments, that you and the other new hires can turn to? He probably is a pill to work with for everyone and not just you. They might have advice on how to work around him.

    “Lawrence is proving to be unhelpful and hostile for our on-boarding. Do you have any insight into how to either best work with him or find the training info without having to contact him?” … but I’m pretty direct and not easily intimidated by bullies, so if you must soften the message you could also try, “Lawrence seems to be overwhelmed with training the three of us. Can we approach you with questions or do you know of self-service resources we could use?”

  43. Petty Betty*

    I have to wonder if Lawrence is THE Go-To Guy for whatever he’s teaching the three of you, and by teaching you, he’s spreading his “special expertise” around, and in his mind, reducing his specialness because he wouldn’t be THE ONE AND ONLY Person Who Knows anymore, which is partially why he’s being so hostile.
    He’s technically giving the information, but he’s doing it in such a way that it’s hard to follow, hard to capture, and therefore hard to retain. Then, when you follow up to try to make sure you can get the information correctly, he gets aggressive so you don’t *want* to get the information properly. He wants you to look incompetent (he’s already trying to solidify that term for you as a descriptor), so when he ensures you fail, he can then go back to management and say “see, you keep hiring bad workers, it’s better if the knowledge just stays centralized with me” or something like that.
    Why is he doing it? Who knows. Maybe he’s angling for a big raise/promotion. Maybe he’s possessive of his knowledge set. Maybe he likes feeling singular/special. Could be a combination of the three or something else entirely.

    I highly recommend banding together with the other two trainees and talking to your supervisor (or HR if your supervisor isn’t willing to make time). This is something that NEEDS to be addressed. Get someone to hear you, because Lawrence isn’t going to stop unless management makes him stop.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s very possible that Lawrence is a knowledge-hoarder and thinks if other people are properly trained that it somehow threatens his job security, and he’s using this super abusive passive-aggressive way to make sure people aren’t properly trained.

      1. Petty Betty*

        That’s the title I was thinking of, but couldn’t put words to. *sigh* Bad brain days are bad.

    2. ThatOtherClare*

      I worked with a Lawrence like that and it took some very special circumstances for his reign of terror to end. I also recommend going to management, but if that doesn’t work, I encourage the letter writer to try and learn the processes some other way. It’s very likely that the processes are actually very simple and well within the letter writer’s capabilities, hence why Lawrence is having to work SO HARD at obfuscating them. If that doesn’t work out, just leave. It’s not you, it’s not failure, nobody can dig through a steel wall with a plastic spoon and it’s not worth hurting your hands in the attempt. Some things can’t be fixed.

  44. Nameless*

    Your boss should be prioritizing weekly check-ins with a new hire, and it’s not great that he’s not doing so. I think the problems with this company are going to extend far beyond one (truly awful) trainer.

  45. Favorite Trainer*

    Geez, I trained a new employee on our very difficult, very detail oriented and technical job years ago and I was clear with him that “this is hard, don’t doubt yourself, the learning curve is steep, and to ask, ask, ask questions.” He is now, 10 years later, one of our top performers and will be training the next new employee. I mean, that wasn’t even hard. Talk to your boss and good luck.

  46. No Face*

    I had an old coworker who was this way when he trained me. Eventually, training new folks on the team moved to me because of this exact kind of behavior. I called him out as soon as I was in a position to do so, and made it clear that the way he was doing things was self-serving and made people uncomfortable. He got better and we are still friends, but he needed someone to call him out. Go to your boss as a group and if it doesn’t get better, report it to HR.

  48. AmuseBouchee*

    Thank you, Allison.

    I’d email your boss and tell him how patronizing Lawrence is.

  49. Sharpie*

    I am so incredibly grateful to be at a place where, even as a temp, I can ask questions about anything to do with work processes and they will be answered and explained, and people are willing to walk me through stuff.

    Really supportive bosses and management make such a difference to whether the job is enjoyable.

  50. Timothy*

    Wow, this reminds me of getting oriented at two of the last jobs I had.

    When you join an organization to do maintenance programming on an old code base (dating back twenty years), there’s a lot to learn, apart from understanding the business model itself.

    And when the co-worker who’s been assigned to help you out starts dodging your follow-up questions, you do start to feel a little imposter syndrome creeping in. In that situation, I should have involved the team lead, but I decided I’d better just dig in and work harder. That was not a recipe for success.

  51. Phony Genius*

    Assuming the LW’s boss is also Lawrence’s boss, then it sounds like this is a boss who devotes so little time to their employees that they created the environment that allowed Lawrence to exist. If this is the case I don’t have a lot of confidence things will improve.

  52. CubeFarmer*

    At first I wondered if OP was asking about stuff that they really should be able to figure out themselves, but then I read that two other people are having the same experience.

    I’m surprised that the advice didn’t include using that strength in numbers. If three people want 10 minutes with the boss to give a tight, perhaps even rehearsed, rundown of challenges with Lawrence, it might a) reinforce that there’s a problem and b) let everyone’s struggles be heard efficiently.

  53. TheBunny*

    Wow.

    Part of me wonders if he thinks he’s training you? I’ve definitely encountered people who tell others to figure it out or come to them with solutions and I sort of wonder if he thinks this is what he’s doing, albeit badly.

    I agree you need to involve others because whether he’s a misguided trainer (who is awful at it) or an ass, both issues are problems for your boss at this point.

  54. Jess*

    Lawrence is stuck at his level and tired of training new hires with no compensation/trainer title. Also he has no supervisor authority, only responsibility. The org is the problem, and your boss already knows.

    I had a Lawrence, his name is Tom. For 3 years he told me no one advances out of our role. I finished my degree and have made 2 jumps up in the org via other departments in 2 years. No one wants Lawrence or Tom in their department, so he never gets hired up or out, and he’s too entrenched to jump ship.

  55. Crencestre*

    Long-time teacher here: A very common misconception is that anyone’s who’s good at doing something will be equally good at teaching it to others. I only wish that were true! The truth is that teaching is a discrete skill of itself and NOT everyone has it. Lawrence clearly does not!

    So by all means, OP, finagle at least a short meeting with your manager and explain what’s been happening – BUT do NOT make it a gripe session all about Lawrence! He’s been there longer than you have, for all you know he and your manager have been best friends since kindergarten, and his seniority in the company alone will give him credibility.

    So don’t make it about Lawrence – make the meeting all about how YOU want to learn the material as well and as fast as you can so that you can start making real, substantive contributions to the company and then very tactfully segue into Lawrence’s teaching style. Explain that it’s confusing to be told to come to someone with questions only to be told when you do that you shouldn’t NEED to ask those questions in the first place. If you have impatient, scolding emails from Lawrence then so much the better – print them out and bring them to the meeting with the manager. Frame what you say as concerns rather than simply complaints; it’ll make a better impression on your manager and will make it that much more difficult for him to ignore you or reflexively take Lawrence’s side in this.

    And if this were a very different website, well, you would be NTA while Lawrende would be TA in spades!

  56. NurseThis*

    Lawrence maybe a toad but who knows if training new people was Velcro’d onto three other jobs he’s juggling for the company. Definitely go to the boss. Lawrence is not a people person.

  57. coffeeIV*

    what an ASS!

    I currently have a coworker who genuinely is extremely incompetent, and comments like this are still so far over the line! At peak frustration I was just very curt with him–peak frustration including frequent complaints to my boss, a trusted coworker, and rants to friends outside of work to the point of making them look at a chart I had made with far less context than coworker had, and made them tell me if they understood. I can’t imagine being that rude to a new person!

    My coworker was almost a full year into his job and I was having the same extremely basic conversation with him 10+ times–think him asking me if a person from company X should register for an event as a llama groomer, when the company isn’t llama groomers, his job title has llama groomers in it, and we have a whopping total of 5 or 6 llama groomers.

  58. The other sage*

    If you haven’t done already, document his behaviour, with timestamps and quotations as precise as you can. This will help you to keep in mind that his behaviour is as problematic as it feels, and you have some sort of proof about what he is doing. It will be easier to explain his boss what the problem is without underacting.

  59. Elsa*

    Lawerence is terrible, and it’s very problematic that your boss is so unavailable to you. But I do have one possible suggestion.

    Are you able to build your own network and to figure out other more friendly coworkers who might be willing to answer some of your questions so you don’t have to interact with Lawrence as much?

    My experience in any new place that I’ve started working is that even great bosses sometimes don’t accurately predict who will be most helpful to me, and it’s something I need to figure out and build the network that works for me.

  60. Jedi Sentinel Bird*

    Depending on what state or country you are in, next time you have to interact with him, you should do an audio recording. Again, check your state laws. one of my friends had a boss belittling him and saying nasty thing. So he recorded a meeting with the nasty boss, took it to the grand boss and that helped him out by getting him to not have to ever interact with nasty boss again.

  61. Art3mis*

    I had a Lawrence. Except her name was Linda. Our boss was Linda’s bestie, they went on smoke breaks together, even though Linda didn’t smoke. They took lunch breaks together. But don’t worry, I was told, that doesn’t cloud our manager’s decisions. Right. Our manager and our manager’s manager, basically had Linda’s back. Didn’t matter that I was struggling, that Linda was a pain, that everyone else in the office told them that Linda was a pain and a terrible trainer. Linda had been there for years and the lawyers like how Linda did things, so I was in the wrong no matter what. I left just shy of a year because of her. Only because it took that long to find something else. I ended up taking a pay cut just to get away from her.

    I later had a manager at a new job that told me to give a name to that voice in my head that tells me that I can’t do something, that belittles me, and talks negatively about myself. Give it a name so I can tell it to shut the F up. I named it Linda.

  62. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    Lawrence is a horrible jerk and your manager is negligent in not allocating time for checkins with new employees.
    (I wonder if Lawrence just enjoys being a bully or is trying to ensure his job security by deliberately not training people how to do what he doe)

    It would make your boss pay more attention if you can get together as a group with the other suffering trainees to ask for a meeting and then present the problem together, so it’s not just you

  63. ThreeSeagrass*

    The OP doesn’t say how long they have been in the job, but I’d be very concerned that I couldn’t get in front of my boss for even a brief meeting. Even as a mid-career professional, I meet with my boss regularly. And I meet with all the people I supervise regularly, even if it’s just for 10-15 minutes once a month to make sure everything is OK. How does an absent boss fairly evaluate their employees, for example. Are they offloading all management and training onto Lawrence?Lawrence sounds like a real glassbowl, but the inaccessible boss seems like more of a red flag for me about how this company is run, and how much OP will be able to get a fair shake in this role.

  64. Lawrence's Intern*

    I was proto-Lawrence long ago.
    In my defense:
    * I was young. In fact I wasn’t even a full time employee, I was an intern. (My mentor quit halfway through my internship and I was tasked with training his replacement)
    * The trainee was a new, but fulltime employee with decades of experience. So in fact, he should have been competent.
    * The trainee interrupted me multiple times per day to demand step-by-step instructions for every task. He was unwilling or unable to take a previous set of step-by-step instructions and modify them for a slightly different task. He wanted me to stop what I was doing and figure it out for him. How he was going to do his job after my internship ended is left as an exercise for the reader.
    * I didn’t openly question his competence. What I did do was snap at him in a clearly angry tone “I DON’T KNOW!” when he asked me yet again to explain something that I probably did know how to do, but expected him to know or figure out. He was offended and left for the day.
    * After my internship ended, my former trainee only lasted a month before he got offended and quit.
    * To this day I don’t like interruptions, but I am ever so slightly less likely to blow up about it.

  65. A. N. Other*

    Lawrence is undeniably behaving very, very badly; however, is it really necessary for so many commentators to refer to him using a vulgar synonym for male genitalia? If commentators wouldn’t say that a condescending female boss is behaving like, say, a vagina then I would gently suggest that they should restrain themselves when tempted to refer to male bosses, however condescending, as pricks.

    1. A. N. Other*

      On reflection, my comparison was a poor one: vagina is a perfectly neutral word whereas prick is clearly intended to be derogatory. A more appropriate comparison would be if commentators were calling female bosses c—s.

    2. ThatOtherClare*

      That’s why I recommend sticking to asshole as one’s vulgar insult of choice. Everybody has one.

      Keeping one’s profanity oriented around waste elimination rather than intimate activities is always a good idea.

  66. DJ*

    He’s a jerk.
    I remember years ago having a colleague who was meant to be my go to person roll their eyes when I asked questions. I explained to them I knew perhaps my questions appeared stupid however as I’d worked for several workplaces all with different ways of doings I didn’t want to assume. I would occasionally say at X they did it differently. Then I was snarled at with the comment were no X to which I responded I realise that which is why I’m asking.
    Unfortunately I took too long to report this to my manager. However a friend suggested I explain why by saying I’ve been trying to build rapport. Unfortunately my solutions (clear split of duties, calling me in on their supervision sessions when our joint project was discussed to avoid colleague from having to repay everything to me and my being seen as throwing a spanner in the works by asking for a work need eg I’ll need. X equipment/time) were seen as “controlling”)
    Do discuss with your higher up. Good to think of ways to reduce going to this person eg are there others I could go to for x y and z.

  68. Mrs. Hawiggins*

    I’m sorry but it would be all I could do not to answer, “I thought you said you were competent,” with, “I thought you said you were, too.”

    I was just laid off from my job of 18 years a couple of weeks ago. I don’t relish the idea of being trained again, or returning to work again period, or the Lawrences I’m likely to face again, after all this time.

    But I ain’t gonna tolerate them either.

  69. tRiGgErRed!*

    I just had a visceral reaction reading his comments. The person who was supposed to train me in my job said very similar things whenever I asked questions, and it got to the point where I was no longer allowed to ask them. Unfortunately, that person was my boss. I ended up having a major mental health crisis 100% because of this manager and quit the job without anything lined up. I have now been unemployed for several years, which has, of course, worsened my mental health. I really, really hope your boss can become accessible and nip this in the bud.

  70. Tit-for-tat is not exactly Professional, but sometimes I wish it were*

    If Lawrence was a competent trainer, you might not have so many questions.

  71. Tiger Snake*

    “Why are you asking me this/why can’t you work it out yourself” can be valid questions, if inelegantly worded. Understanding what an employee does understand and where the sticking point is is important, and when someone comes and asks a question it doesn’t give you context. When people ask me for help I do ask questions – not to catch someone out because it’s the only way I can understand what they need.

    Waterfalling I probably do on my side a lot as well. To give an answer, I need to give the context. That’s how my brain works; I am not a machine or a database, I don’t have answers on standby, I work it out each time. So, I say it all out loud so you can understand how I came to that conclusion, and so I’m not starting into space for 10 minutes while I work it out.

    I think it’s important that Lawerence is given this feedback, because there are several pieces in here that can be well intended and simply aren’t being handled well from a social perspective. It is possible (if unlikely) that Lawerence doesn’t intend to come off this hostile, doesn’t realise the OP is feeling this way, and doesn’t know what he needs to address.

  72. Tinker Tailor Solder Dye*

    Good gravy, what an asshole.

    I’m the first to admit that I have to force myself to slow down and explain things when I train, but that’s a me problem, not my trainee’s. And Lawrence, dickhead, YOU CAN’T PULL THE WHOLE NICE GUY THING OF “IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS, DON’T HESITATE TO ASK!” SHIT.

    OP, PLEASE get together with the other trainees and get your boss alone; this is 100% not good and a dick like Lawrence can screw you over by claiming you just aren’t learning things fast enough or well enough. You deserve competent, compassionate training from someone who isn’t a complete jackass.

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