updates: the insecure coworker, an exciting cocktail, and more

by Alison Green on July 18, 2024

Here are four updates from past letter-writers.

1. Training a fragile, insecure coworker has become Too Much

I really appreciated the advice, both from you and the commenters (and the permission to drop the rope that part of me was undoubtedly after). I realized after my letter was published that I’d left out a lot of context about what management looks like where I work. As much as I love my job, I think it’s fair to say that under-management is fairly entrenched across the organization and managerial responsibilities are dispersed among too many people. For instance, Perdita and I each get assigned to about 12 projects per year, each overseen by different people. Then a 13th person who has no oversight over any of those projects compiles our annual performance reviews, Zagat guide style, from feedback submitted by project leaders and peers. A 14th person signs off on vacation requests, a 15th signs off on timesheets, and hirings and firings have to involve a centralized HR department based in a different office two towns over from ours. On top of that, we work in such a notoriously challenging field that I doubt our leadership has much experience managing employees out. Most people who are struggling leave on their own, knowing that all they need to say while job searching is, “Working at Idealistic Gluttons for Punishment ‘R’ Us just wasn’t for me.”

Given these dynamics, it wasn’t practical to have one more conversation with any one manager about Perdita. But I did contribute some feedback to her first performance review where I described the issues I was seeing and encouraged her to reflect on whether she could be happy at this organization, with the understanding that reasonable people can reasonably answer no to that question. (Hearing from the commenters who had managed Perditas out of their own organizations helped me frame that feedback as respectfully as possible.) As far as I know, this didn’t have any impact (see above), but I felt better for having named the problem in writing. Then, a few months ago, I had to come in on a day I had planned to take off in order to finish a project that Perdita punted to me after she froze up. I told her that going forward, she would need to manage her anxiety without involving me. Lo and behold, she didn’t shatter into a thousand tiny pieces, and she has since stopped coming to me for help.

In short, Perdita is still here, and still Perdita-ing. But I don’t hear much from her anymore, and I’m calling that a win!

2. Explaining why I’m leaving when I don’t have another job lined up (#4 at the link)

I took the route of telling my grandboss (the VP) by saying, “I know this may come as a surprise, but I’ve given it a lot of thought, and I am going to take some time off to travel and think about what I want to do next.”

It went slightly off the rails from there. I should mention that my company takes the statement “we are like family” very seriously, and everyone was surprised, and displeased that I was leaving. My grandboss tried to convince me to stay, told me I was making a mistake, and then told me she was upset that I didn’t give her much notice (I gave her six weeks notice, but they prefer 3-6 months notice if you have an inkling you want to leave). A week later, I was pulled into the office by my CFO and was told I should come up with a solution with my grandboss to get more PTO and stay at the company. I told him I didn’t see that as possible given our strict policy and that I had my mind set on taking a year off. After that, my direct boss started going around asking my other coworkers who I was close to, “Did you know she was going to leave? If so, why didn’t you tell us? Your loyalty lies with the company.” This caused a lot of drama and ended with the CFO having to tell my boss that it was inappropriate and that she needed to cease the questioning.

So, it didn’t break off as cleanly as I wanted, but I did take the year off to travel and it was the best year of my entire life. I don’t regret it one bit, and I look back on my year with fondness and extreme joy. Now, I am back, and am pursuing a new career!

Thank you for your advice, and for all the comments giving me support and encouragement!

3. Hiring manager wants to cut out the recruiter (#4 at the link)

Thank you very much for your advice. As I wrote in the comments, the employer had definitely engaged the recruiter. I spoke with the recruiter and she has asked me to continue the process with the company and let her handle it. There are few good recruiters in my field so I am keen to stay on good terms with her.

4. A cocktail

Here’s a super minor update over a year in the making. Back in 2023, there was a question about a coworker getting drunk and punching someone. One comment thread touched on being surprised he got that out of control after only three drinks, and one commenter was asking whether “one drink” might not mean a cocktail with more than “one standard drink” worth of alcohol in it. The example used was that a cocktail might include equal parts Lemonade and Jaegermeister in a beer glass. I joked about trying that, and forgot, until this weekend. So here’s your update on whether Jaeger and Lemonade is a combo that works.

The darker drink is equal parts Jaegermeister and lemonade. It’s quite sweet, and tastes surprisingly like an intense Good & Plenty candy. The first few sips were good, but by the end the licorice was getting too strong. The other drink is a single shot of Jaeger and the rest of the glass lemonade. It’s surprisingly tasty — the earthy licorice cuts back on the sweetness of the lemonade without overwhelming it, with a much fainter version of the Good & Plenty flavor as a gentle after taste. A solid B- mixed drink, it’s not the best ever but I will be having it again.

Hope this is a valuable update contribution, and happy Independence Day!

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{ 91 comments }

{ 91 comments… read them below }

  1. Blue Spoon*

    The person who did the AAM-themed Thanksgiving last year has something new to add to the menu, I see

      1. Hlao-roo*

        They did! Search for “an Ask a Manager Thanksgiving” to find the post from November 28, 2023.

  2. Fricketyfrack*

    I can’t be convinced that jaeger and anything is acceptable, but I appreciate that kind of dedication.

    1. TeenieBopper*

      The smell of Jaeger (and/or red bull) is still enough to give me second hand hangovers from long nights 15 years ago.

      1. aunttora*

        Same for me and tequila. Also orange soda, but thankfully separate triggering incidents.

      2. Fricketyfrack*

        My coworker had a red bull yesterday and I thought I was going to barf. Jaeger bombs were a one night affair, but vodka red bull lasted longer, and neither were a good idea.

    3. Katie*

      As a person who strongly believes that Jaeger helped bring my husband together and have a fondness for the company for that…. I agree.

    4. AmoretteA*

      Ugh. I am too old to drink Jaegermeister. Gag. But then, my go-to is a gin and tonic with good English gin so you can tell I am older than old.

      1. Nicole Maria*

        Letter writer #1, it took me until the update to realize you basically named your coworker “loser”, I wouldn’t want to work with her either but I kind of feel for her.

        1. Nicole Maria*

          Oh my goodness, this was supposed to be a stand-alone comment. Not a reply, sorry!

          For the record, I associate jaegermeister with my grandfather and G&Ts with college parties so I don’t think your drink choices give away your age as much as you think they do!

        3. Cannibal Queen*

          I think the meaning of Perdita is more like ‘lost one’. Shakespeare used it in A Winter’s Tale as the name of a ‘lost’ child who was raised as a shepherdess but turned out to be the daughter of a king. This Perdita seems rather ‘lost’ in her job, so it’s not inappropriate in my opinion.

        4. TeaCoziesRUs*

          My mind immediately jumped to 101 Dalmations and thinking of dalmatian dogs as high-strung, anxious, and bullies. :)

      2. Jill Swinburne*

        Are you me? In my younger days I used to keep a bottle of Jaeger in the freezer as a matter of habit (just drank it neat – I can’t stand Red Bull) but now I have a liquor cabinet with a small selection of only good stuff, and I like to try out different London Drys.

        1. allathian*

          I still have a half-full bottle of Jäger somewhere. I got it when I was in college 30 years ago.

          I mostly drink beer or wine now, but for mixed drinks, I usually pick G&T, with Napue gin and Fever Tree tonic if possible.

          I can’t drink Red Bull at all, the taurine it contains gives me heart palpitations. It’s weird because I drink coffee by the pint and never get the shakes, not even after 12 cups! That was a once in a lifetime experience, though, I drank the coffee to stay awake enough to revise for an exam when I got a book on overnight loan, only drank one more cup before the exam, and finally fell asleep about 3 am the following morning.

  4. Goldenrod*

    “then told me she was upset that I didn’t give her much notice (I gave her six weeks notice, but they prefer 3-6 months notice if you have an inkling you want to leave).”

    WTF.

    Thanks for the great update, LW2! I’m jealous of your year off traveling, it sounds amazing!!

    1. Lina*

      “they prefer 3-6 months notice”…well, as my grandmother used to say, “people in Hell want ice water, and they’re not getting that, either.” Or my dad, when my brother and I would ask for something: “it’s good to want things; that gives you goals.”

      6 weeks notice is a lot! Glad you got your year of travel, OP.

      1. BellaStella*

        +1 to t he people in hell want ice water comment, my folks said that too!
        OP – am so happy for you to travel for a year and start a new career! Well done!

        1. Grandma*

          How times change. I’m not sure my grandchildren (11 & 16) actually know what hell means besides a swear word. The younger one may not even have run across hell as a swear word yet. Their mother was introduced to hell as a preschooler when some religious group thought it was appropriate to scare the just-barely-potty-trained into tears with threats of sin and hellfire. She did not feel it was necessary to give her children similar nightmares.

          1. Your Former Password Resetter*

            I’m pretty sure they know what hell is, unless they’re locked in a cupboard from the age of 5. It’s pretty hard to miss christianity in our society :)

      4. Hot Flash Gordon*

        I prefer “Well, you can wish in one hand and sh*t in another and see which one fills up first.”

    2. 2 Cents*

      Clearly that grandboss needs to watch the viral video going around with the HR sounds like “We’re not family / please treat me professionally” and “don’t stand so, don’t stand so, don’t stand so close to Steve.” [It’s gold]

    3. Nina*

      In my country, four weeks’ notice is standard across the board and you’d look a bit unhinged to expect to be given more as an employer or to get away with giving less as an employee. But in my company people will either give months and months of notice that they’re looking to move, or storm out with less than five minutes’ notice.

  5. Katy*

    Letter #2 makes me think of the wonderful classic movie Holiday, with Cary Grant and Katharine Hepburn. I recommend it to everyone.

  7. Zephy*

    #2 – I’m glad it worked out well for you in the end, but you absolutely did not have to give that company six weeks’ notice. Six MONTHS is ludicrous, and especially with how your boss reacted, I imagine if you had given them that (insane) amount of notice, you would have been summarily dismissed – if not the same day, then shortly thereafter. Either that, or they would act totally blindsided when you didn’t show up one day half a year (!!!!) after telling them you would be leaving in six months.

    1. 3-Foot Tall Inflatable Rainbow Unicorn*

      Seriously, LW2 hasn’t just had a good vacation, they’ve gotten free from a bananapants business. “Your loyalty lies with the company.” Yikes! My loyalty lies with my mortgage – and I have occasionally said so to bosses.

      1. AJ*

        My ex-husband once complained to me that nobody had loyalty to companies any more, and he just wanted to find *a* company and stick with them for decades.

        I have always been baffled by this. Especially since every time he gives up on a job or gets fired, he finds a completely new career field.

    2. Where’s the Orchestra?*

      The only time I saw giving months worth of notice work out was when I was in High School (25 or so years ago). One of the teachers announced in December that they’d be retiring at the end of the current school year. They had become an institution at that school, it seemed wrong to not see them wandering the halls asking kids about a song they were listening to or a book they were reading. Nobody even considered pushing them out early, they retired with grace after 35 years in the math department at that school.

      And yes, it took the whole six months (plus six more weeks over summer break) to find a replacement for them. Good math teachers are hard to find.

      1. Rara Avis*

        It’s different for teachers because we’re almost always on school-year contracts, and it’s pretty darn hard to find a replacement mid-year, so there’s little fear of being pushed out. At my school, we sign the contract for the following year in late January/early February, and that gives the school time to hire during March and April for people to start the following August. It’s not unusual for people who plan to retire to announce in August, “This will be my last year.”

        1. Where’s the Orchestra?*

          Very true. I think sculls are one of the few places you can get away with a long notice.

          Lots of fond memories of that teacher – I’d never have passed pre-calc with a different teacher. He retired a few years after I had his class. The student body (past and present) banded together to plan and fund a party for him on the last day of school in the school gym – with full permission of the principal.

      2. RW*

        It’s fairly standard here for doctors to be on 3 months notice – when I resigned earlier this year, I was surprised to pull out my contract and see I only had to give 4 weeks. I actually gave 4 months, because I’d already mentally set a date for completing a training programme and selling my house and I was sick of keeping secrets at work.
        It’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation, though, in that the theory is that it gives plenty of time to find someone else, but then THEY have to give 3 months notice too – in the event there’s a 6-week gap between when I leave and my replacement starts anyway

    1. Artemesia*

      LIke candy corn, a ‘serving’ of good a plenty is eating enough to feel nauseated.

      1. Panicked*

        I like candy corn AND Good and Plenties. I also like gin and tonics. I wonder what that says about me…

  10. AE*

    #1: “Working at Idealistic Gluttons for Punishment ‘R’ Us just wasn’t for me.”

    I’m glad things have (somewhat) improved for you, and this statement made me feel seen.

  11. disconnect*

    “I gave her six weeks notice, but they prefer 3-6 months notice if you have an inkling you want to leave.”

    People in hell prefer ice water.

  12. VP of Monitoring Employees' LinkedIn Profiles*

    #2…

    They say: “We’re a fammmmmily!”

    They mean: “We treat employees like unwanted stepchildren.”

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      You forgot to put a description about the stepchildren. We tend to be redheads.
      (I’m thinking of the much used phrase “like red-haired stepchildren at a family reunion”

    2. Someone stole my croissant*

      We’re a family! Oh by the way, Cinderella, dust my desk. If you finish all your paperwork, we might allow you to pay for lunch for your supervisor!

    4. Kes*

      Eh, there can be favourites too. I think it’s more generally ‘we like to pretend we’re all really close and get along, but we’re actually pretty dysfunctional and potentially toxic in various ways’

    5. Rex Libris*

      Seriously. If my job was like most of my family, they wouldn’t have my address or phone number, and I’d see them once every six or eight years at a funeral.

  13. By the lake*

    I appreciate the updates and the research undertaken by the AAM community. Or AAM verse.

    1. Daisy-dog*

      No! I want them to drink 3 in less than 1 hour and then see how many people they punch in the face!!! :P

  15. Jiminy Cricket*

    OP#4 I need to know whether you mean American-style lemonade (lemon juice + sugar + water) or British-style lemonade (Sprite). For, um, weekend-related reasons.

    2. Ally McBeal*

      I don’t see any carbonation in either glass so I assume it’s American lemonade.

    3. Artemesia*

      I didn’t realize the Brits called sprite lemonade. They do in France and it took a couple of glasses of that dreck to teach me not to order it.

      3. fhqwhgads*

        Well not quite. Sprite is lemon-lime soda. I’m pretty sure UK lemonade is just lemon soda. Or fizzy American lemonade.

      4. londonedit*

        No, Sprite isn’t lemonade. It’s lemon and lime. You don’t put Sprite in a shandy, and we don’t call Sprite lemonade either. But what lemonade is here is a clear sparkling drink, like Sprite/7up but just lemon, no lime flavour.

        We do also have cloudy/still lemonade, but that’s a different thing.

    5. Lab Boss*

      It was actually the instant Country Time lemonade mix. So, American style, but cheap and artificial (in my defense, I was on a week’s vacation and time spent preparing fresh lemon juice was time not spent in the lake).

  16. CowWhisperer*

    OP #4,

    I could get trashed off of 3 beers or 3 wine coolers. My paternal family line jokes that we have a tee-toling alcohol dehydrogenase allele that is clearly autosomal dominant.

    The first drink would kill me – but it sounds like a good drink. The second drink sounds nice and survivable. Cheers!

    1. Warrior Princess Xena*

      I start to feel the effects after a small can of 4% cider, so I’m in the same boat as you. I don’t know that I’d ever get to the coworker-punching stage, but I would have pretty impaired judgement. And a headache.

    2. Panicked*

      I come from a very long line of people who can hold their liquor. I’m over the legal limit after half a glass of wine. Three drinks would have me on the floor; I couldn’t swing at anyone if I tried!

  17. Empress Ki*

    2 – If they were truly like family, they would rejoice of your opportunity to travel for a while.

  18. HelloWorld*

    #4 – The sweet alcoholic drink reminds me of the 1990s fondly. I don’t expect such an update!

    I have been foolish with alcohol during my younger days but not at a workplace. Phew!

  19. Exhausted Trope*

    OP4, thank you for your description. I’ve often wondered what Jagermeister was like and now I know.

    1. Hot Flash Gordon*

      It’s so thick and syrup-y, which is par for the course with Schnapps. Just the thought of it makes me shudder (too many schnapps related shenanigans in college).

    2. Ariaflame*

      My mind flashed back to the clip from Burlesque where Alan Cumming’s character tells the incoming protagonist that he should wash her mouth out with Jagermeister. (for misidentifying what kind of club it was)

  20. MysticAlpaca*

    For #1- what advice would Allison or readers give to Perdita’s manager (if she had one and had written in)? I manage a similar employee. She’s not as outwardly emotional as Perdita, but she struggles with the same things, and has mentioned her internal anxiety and a fear of “making the wrong decision”, and gets more flustered and mistake-prone when I give her feedback on her mistakes. She does frequently make weird decisions on things that seem just logical and straightforward to me, so her fear is justified. She does best at repetitive work with clear instructions, but that only makes up 20% of our work. I didn’t realize how much of our work is judgment/critical thinking based until I had an employee who lacked it. I give her feedback as often as I can, but a lot of our work and her mistakes are one-off and not repeatable in the future. The bigger picture is, I think she’s not fully cut out for the job, but 1) I don’t know how to give her that feedback clearly and give her a chance to improve and 2) my company has a lot of steps required to performance manage someone out and I don’t know out to articulate these expectations clearly and objectively in a PIP. Id need to be more concrete than “make better decisions on your own”.

    1. HipsandMakers*

      1) Could you find three “one-off” incidents where the mistakes reflected a broadly similar cause? (Not getting stakeholder [colleague, client] input, not reviewing likely research sources to begin the project, not testing assumptions/fact-checking data before making recommendations, not doing basic spelling/grammar checks, etc?) And then use those three seemingly different scenarios to explain that Mistakes A, B, and C could have been avoided (or at least minimized) by taking Approach X before starting or finishing the project. Even for very small deliverables, some of this should apply, and for bigger projects, it all should.

      2) Once you’ve identified a few of those common causes, could you give her a template of very generalized steps to take to avoid the mistakes, including getting feedback? And make her complete it for deliverables of a given size? If she can’t figure out how to turn “find relevant sources and begin project research” into “review database Q and news sites Y and Z” when related, then that’s an objective that she wouldn’t be meeting.

  21. Hroethvitnir*

    Wow. Update 2/quitting the “family” is ridiculous. I’ve definitely experienced a variance on this dysfunction, but would even there I would expect people to understand leaving for travel.

    And Update 4: I love you. It reminds me of a friend and I deciding to try bourbon and mountain dew after hearing that’s what the original mountain dew was designed for. It wasn’t… great… but not as bad as you’re inclined to imagine!

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