creepy coworker is following my wife, interviewers want to talk about my feelings after rejecting me, and more

by Alison Green on August 6, 2024

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. Can my wife report her creepy coworker to HR?

My wife is in a concerning situation at work. A coworker who started out as a friend began crossing the line, making it clear he was looking for more. The comments he made were more “creepy” than outright harassment. When she politely turned him down, he continued to ask her to meet her outside of work. She ended up texting him saying she was uncomfortable with their interactions and wanted to confirm they were just friends, nothing more. He said she was acting crazy and of course they were just friends. He then followed it up the next day with another creepy invite to meet outside of work.

Last night, a couple days after telling him they were just friends, my wife had plans to go out to dinner with her friends and had mentioned in passing to him that she was going to a specific restaurant and asked if he had ever been there. He said he was not a fan, yet while she was sitting at the bar, he showed up and sat a few seats away. They did not interact and my wife left a few minutes after she saw him.

She now feels unsafe at her workplace and is at a loss on whether this is something she can approach HR about. It is obviously a public restaurant that anyone can go to, but it seems a bit to coincidental that he showed up there. She’s also a bit concerned that this can be turned back on her because she did not immediately shut down his creepy comments but would generally just ignore them at first. What is the right thing to do in this situation?

She should absolutely talk to HR. Of course anyone could just show up at a public restaurant, but her complaint isn’t “I was at a restaurant and he showed up.” It’s “he has repeatedly asked me out, despite my saying no, and I am concerned that he has now escalated to showing up to at least one place outside of work where he knew I would be, at the time he knew I would be there.” It’s the pattern that paints the troubling picture. She’s being harassed by a colleague, and her company has a legal obligation to put a stop to it. Any halfway decent HR will spot that immediately.

Please don’t let your wife worry that she’ll be seen as less credible or at fault for not immediately shutting down her coworker more firmly. Her response — to be polite, to try to soften the message to preserve the relationship, to hope he’d get the hint and stop on his own — is an incredibly common and understandable one, particularly at work where she had strong motivation to let him save face and preserve their working relationship (and particularly in a culture where rejected men not infrequently lash out … and his accusation that she was being “crazy” is just the softest version of what that can look like). Her attempt to tread lightly doesn’t make her responsible for his choices.

2. Interviewers want to talk about my feelings after rejecting me

I’ve been applying for jobs in a specialized field of human services. Of course, not every applicant is a good fit for every job and rejections are inevitable. But a weird and unexpected thing has happened to me twice recently — the hiring manager who calls to let me know I’ve not been successful in my application then wants to see if I’m okay? How am I feeling about this? Tries to reassure me the candidate pool was strong, etc. In one case I flubbed a question in the interview. The hiring manager asked if it would make me feel better if I knew that that was not the reason I didn’t get the job. Kind of? I don’t know.

If a manager takes the time to let me know by phone that I haven’t been successful — which is fairly common in our field, since the hiring experience can be extensive — all I want is to pick up on any feedback on things I can improve in future, then thank them for considering me and wish them the best. If I’m feeling sorry for myself over not getting the job, that’s something I’ll work out talking to a friend or in my journal, not talking to someone I met once and may want to consider me in future. Is there a way I can cut this short, without saying “yes, I’m fine, really” in a way that could be construed as brusque?

What?! This is weird. I have a feeling it stems from hearing that applicants hate impersonal rejections and then trying to counter that — but trying to probe into and manage your feelings about their decision is a step too far.

The best thing you can do is to be a cheerful wall — by which I mean you stay upbeat but refuse to entertain attempts to probe into your feelings. So (abbreviated to remove any discussion of substantive feedback):

Hiring manager: “I’m calling to let you know we went with another candidate.”
You: “I appreciate you calling to let me know.”
Manager: “I know that’s rough news to hear.”
You: “It’s never the answer anyone wants, but I understand the process was competitive!”
Manager: “Are you feeling okay about this?”
You: “I appreciate being considered, and it was great to get to know your team a bit. I’d love to stay in touch. Well, thank you again for letting me know, and good luck with the work you’re doing!”

Cheerful wall.

3. My boss got upset that I tried to keep her email after she retires

My boss will retire in two months. She has worked for this company for 24 years and, as far as I understand, her job is a big part of her emotional support system.

When they hired me, we discussed mailbox privacy policy. I expressed a doubt that I should check a mailbox of another employee when they are on their day off and was told, “Work mailboxes are not personal, you don’t need even ask.” I still ask though.

A couple of weeks ago, my boss and I were discussing that her mailbox and email address should stay in our department after her retirement. And, as far as I understood, she wanted me to contact our IT department to say that. It was her idea; we even discussed in which terms exactly I would ask for that.

I wrote the letter. Basically: my boss will retire on this date, please keep her email in use in our department because Reasons. I send it to my boss first, because I didn’t feel good doing it without her approval. She didn’t reply. So after a week, I sent it to IT with our boss copied. They opened a ticket to fulfill my request.

My boss called me, expressing extreme anger and being terribly hurt. I have never seen her like that. She said, “I’m still alive, I am not dead, I should handle that.” I apologized immediately and tried to speak with her, but she said that she would cry and no. She wrote to the IT department to stop the ticket processing.

We haven’t spoken about the situation since then. My boss is speaking with me very sparsely and only about job tasks. I would like to apologize for my mistake. I am very sorry that I did it and still don’t quite understand why my boss’s reaction is this extreme. What I can do? Why did this situation even happen?

Two possibilities: either you somehow misunderstood her initial direction, or she’s having an emotional response to retiring that has nothing to do with you. It doesn’t sound like the first is true (the conversation was clear and explicit, she asked you to contact IT, and then she had a week to review your message, during which time she said nothing) but even if it were a misunderstanding, her reaction would still be over-the-top. It’s much more likely that she’s having mixed feeling about retiring, doesn’t like feeling pushed out even though she’s leaving by her own choice, and maybe is having an visceral but irrational reaction to seeing clear plans made for The Time When She Will Be Gone.

Any apology you make would be about smoothing over the situation, not because you actually owe her one. But it would be fine to say, “I’m sorry I misunderstood our conversation. I thought you had directed me to send that email to IT. I would never do that on my own.” Frankly, that’s more responsibility than you need to take (it would be reasonable to just say, “Did I misunderstand our conversation? I thought you’d explicitly told me to send that email to IT”) but if you’re looking to smooth things over with someone who’s clearly struggling about her upcoming departure, it might help.

4. People are pressing me to attend the staff Christmas party (it’s August)

I currently work in a convenience shop that belongs to a big supermarket chain in the UK. We’re a close-knit team, and I genuinely enjoy working with the majority of my colleagues. I’m leaving at the end of this month so that I can pursue the career that I actually want to be in, and everyone has been genuinely supportive of me, except for one small detail: they all want me to still go to the staff Christmas party.

Yes, I know it is only August.

For the record, I have only attended one Christmas party, which was my first year working for the shop. I decided that it was not my scene, and volunteered to cover other staff shifts so they could attend the party the following years (we normally got outside cover). So even if I was staying, I likely wouldn’t attend anyway. However, while my colleagues are lovely people, they seem to struggle with taking my “no” as a full answer. They even joked about making it my unofficial leaving do, which I very quickly shut down.

There are other reasons I don’t want to attend as well. For one, it would just be awkward? Yes, these people are my friends outside of work but … it’s a quarter of the year away. Secondly, it is £60! That’s not a small sum to me, even if they have set up an unofficial pay-in-3 system (I should note it is other colleagues who chose the venue, not management). Third … it’s just a bad menu. Limited choices, and they can’t even promise the vegan option will be free from non-vegan contaminants.

I just don’t know how to stop them from asking me to go! Should I just leave it until I actually go? Any advice or a script you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

I’m assuming you don’t actually have to buy your ticket this month, right? So: “Sounds like fun! I don’t have any idea at this point what December will look like, but I’d love to attend if I can!”

Or: “I can’t even plan for September at this point, but I’d love to come back and see everyone.”

Is this is a lie when you know you don’t plan to go? Yes! But it’s the sort of white lie that gets used in these situations all the time, where people are pressing you and you don’t feel comfortable saying, essentially, “Nah, when I’m out, I’m out, and by the way, that sounds like a crap time.”

I wouldn’t advise this approach if the stakes were higher — like if they were asking if you’d be available to do a work project as a freelancer and might plan around your answer. But for the question of whether you’ll return to attend the Christmas party, it’s fine.

5. I want a job without much variety

I’m hoping to harness the power of the AAM commentariat with my question. I think it’s pretty common to have job listings that tout how “no two days are the same!” For some people I know, this is ideal! But not me. I don’t actually want a job that’s always different. I’ve thrived the most in jobs with a fairly scheduled process flow to them. I used to be a payroll specialist, and I loved the bi-weekly cycle of things. Sure, we had special projects and unusual situations pop up from time to time. But overall the flow of the job duties was pretty consistent. I knew what to expect on a general level, which I now understand is very important to me. I don’t function at my best when the unexpected is the rule.

I’m currently in an analyst job where I’m always working on several different projects at once. And at any moment, something completely out of left field can be added to my plate with urgency behind it. I haven’t had this role for long, but I do not think it’s right for me. I’d love to get more examples of jobs that are more consistent. I’m talking the type of jobs that people who love excitement avoid like the plague. Can I please get some input from the readers?

Let’s throw it out to readers for ideas.

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{ 470 comments }

{ 470 comments… read them below }

    1. TeacherDiscount*

      LW5- please look at jobs in donor relations- particularly ones in donor database management or gift processing! They’re important roles, pretty routine and every university I worked at was in need of people who liked patterns and routines in those roles.

      1. Thankfully no longer a manager*

        I second this. I worked in donor processing for 10 years. Every day was the same. With your payroll experience you definitely have the skill set needed.

        1. Cmdrshprd*

          Not just university roles, but midsized to large (maybe even a handful of smaller orgs.) non-profits/museums/foundations, also have development/donor relations gift processor roles or others that require a lot of data processing/entry.

          1. Czech Mate*

            Yes, came here to say SOME university roles (I work in higher ed and my particular job is pretty variable, but some jobs aren’t) and museums. In college I worked at a university art museum and it was the most easy-going thing ever–e.g. chit chat with the security guard while doing data entry, etc.

            1. Serafina*

              Sadly, it seems a lot of Higher Education jobs come with another price of terrible inner University politics and drama. Every HE job I have had, has been ripe with them. I’m leaving HE due to it.

      2. RedinSC*

        Yes! And you can add donor research in there, too. Basically just researching information about the organization’s donors.

        Avoid Events and Event management, though! This one is every day is a new test.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          Yeah, events planning and coordination really isn’t for people who don’t like variety or a lot of changes, especially last-minute changes. I do run an event series where all of the events are pretty similar, but other than that, new stuff constantly comes my way.

        2. M2*

          I find donor research intrusive and can be imho borderline stalking- you stalk someone’s personal and financial information for your personal gain.

          A distant family member of mine works in development/ donor relations at a major private university and what they do to get information about people really should be illegal! Some people also use those tools to find out about their own family members which I find gross and a breach of ethics! I would never do donors relations for all those reasons above.

          LW5, is there a reason you don’t go back to payroll?

          Data entry
          Academic coordinator, although you will have to deal with students
          Procurement
          Look at local government websites my area had had up asking for a coordinator but their role seems very same thing every day and doesn’t deal with the public much. Pay isn’t the best but has excellent benefits and a pension
          Admissions reader- you could look into be an admissions reader you basically read admissions files which are all different but it’s mostly the same thing for a large chunk of the year.

          1. Underemployed Erin*

            Donor research is fascinating! If you work in this field, please tell me about the weird rich people and how that one dude built a mansion that only has one bedroom so he can cheat on his taxes because the number of bedrooms in a house goes into property tax considerations in his state.

            1. Jennifer Strange*

              My first donor profile I ever did was on a woman who owned a turkey farm. It was fascinating!

            2. Museum Plants OP*

              My first profile was on one of the sons in a prominent, old-money family with their name on most of the cultural institutions and progressive agencies in our city. I was pretty much given the assignment *because* there’s a wealth of information about this guy/his family out there so it was easy practice. Anyway, I found out he had all but one toilet removed from an old mansion he’d bought to lower the tax bill. He was running for governor.

              Later we had a new board member who left her job to devote herself full time to her philanthropic endeavors after her wife sold a very popular food brand. I didn’t have to dig to find this because it was covered in the newspaper but they purchased two mansions, side by side, only to tear them down and build a mega-mansion. There was some drama about re-numbering the houses on that street, if I recall correctly.

              Anyway that job made me cynical!

            3. The Prettiest Curse*

              Fun historical fact: during the 18th century, laws in the UK taxed properties according to the number of windows. So a lot of old houses have bricked-up windows as a result of owners trying to avoid that tax.

              2. Radiant*

                And a lot of new-build houses in ‘historic’ areas have intentionally bricked up windows to stay “in keeping with the area” (I live in one!)

          2. prospect researcher*

            One person being unethical does not mean the entire field is unethical. I’m a member of the professional association that “donor researchers” belong to, and we have a strict code of ethics. We don’t look for any information that is not publicly available. We’re simply looking for funding for our organization to do its charitable mission.

            1. MsM*

              And if you’re mad at how much information is publicly accessible, be mad at the data companies and social media. If anything, we’re trying to make sure we don’t bug you if there’s clearly no way you’re going to be interested in something, or ask for more than you can and are willing to give.

              2. Jennifer Strange*

                There is also a certain amount of information that people are CHOOSING to make available. To be fair, they may not realize how available it is (I didn’t update the settings on my Facebook until after I started doing donor research) but I’ve definitely come across some folks who are an open book on social media and others who either have a securely guarded social media presence (limited only to those they let in their circle) or no social media presence at all.

          3. WantonSeedStitch*

            In donor research, we’re only able to access publicly available information, and we generally are held accountable to absolutely strict standards about data privacy and good data stewardship. We have ethical best practices that are industry standard, and as a rule, most of us take pride in being conscientious about those ethical standards and communicating them out to the rest of the fundraising operation at our organizations.

          4. LW5*

            Really the biggest reason is the pay. I currently make great money in an analyst job. I don’t mind taking a step back to around $70k, but it would be tough to go much lower.

            1. NotAnActuary*

              I wonder if a different analyst role would help. I used to be an actuarial analyst (no exams needed – there was some support for exams if desired but my role was more like a step down from actuary-track) for a life insurance company calculating reinsurance payments and verifying death benefits. I left because it was so boring – I ran the same reports on the same days every month, with a bigger set quarterly and even bigger set annually. nothing was ever new or novel, unless something broke. (I’m in education now which is never the same ever… so, not that!)

        3. WantonSeedStitch*

          Careful with donor research/prospect research! We might have some days that are very much the same, but sometimes we get stuff way out of left field and have to invent a new process or work with partners from different teams to make sure no one is stepping on anyone else’s toes. Also, because it’s increasingly common for prospect researchers to act as strategic partners to front-line fundraisers, you may well have to deal with a variety of strong personalities who all want or need different kinds of things from you, and get used to negotiating deliverables with them. It depends on the organization, but these things aren’t uncommon.

        4. LW5*

          I actually worked at a hotel previously and straight out of high school I thought I wanted to be an event planner. Seeing what the hotel event managers dealt with quickly disabused me of that notion!

      3. Jennifer Strange*

        Yes! I was going to say something database related. This is a position I am now leaving and there is a good amount of structure to it. Also something related to operations manager. In fact, if the LW is Maryland base and wants a lead on a job…

        1. cosmicgorilla*

          Jennifer Strange, in my world, operations managers are constantly putting out fires. Not so much continuity. Definitely requires someone who likes constant change. I suppose it depends on the industry.

          1. Jennifer Strange*

            Yeah, for me it meant creating and maintaining procedures and protocols, restocking inventory, and keeping my team members on top of their tasks.

            1. Hannah*

              Totally out of left field but I’ve been trying to wrap my head around a job I recently applied to. I think this sentence really helped me out with that so thank you!! Just need to add writing reports to creating procedures and that might capture it :)

      5. wear floral every day*

        I’m coming from a 10-year career in health crises management. You cannot get more exciting than this. No two minutes are similar. After quitting, I panicked anytime I heard any phone ring. Few months ago I started working in donor management and I love this. I love the predictability, the absence of urgency and strict deadlines.

      6. prospect researcher*

        I used to do gift processing and absolutely agree with this! The sameness of every day drove me batty but I had colleagues who adored it.

      7. Lorraine*

        I came here to say gift processing. Please! I am CONSTANTLY looking for someone who just wants to show up, put in their 9-5 coding gifts and go home.

      8. NP*

        Research Real Estate Title and Real Esate Title Officer – there are many repetitive task on the processing side but overall it’s an interesting industry for those who are task and research inclined!

    2. HRIS*

      5: Since you used to do payroll and now you’re an analyst, you might want to look into HRIS (HR Information Systems). Basically you manage/maintain whatever HR uses to store data and analyze it.

      At smaller companies this is often a one-person role with that person stretched across all of HR. But in bigger companies with more bureaucracy, you can specialize in just one aspect like compensation or talent & performance. You still get projects and some variation but there’s a lot that is cyclical and repetitive (launching performance reviews, creating and editing reports, correcting employee data).

      Because you’re maintaining the company’s HR system, the flow of the job REALLY depends on company culture. I’ve worked at places with more urgent projects and places that moved slow as molasses. You would want to find out what kind it is during the interview process!

    3. Nodramalama*

      Is going back to a payroll kind of processing job a possibility?

      I’d say anything that is highly process driven is going to generally not be too surprising varied. Procurements, payroll, HR processing, some front of house/customer service work. I was a beta tester for a while and while the content changed, the nature of the work was fairly consistent.

      1. Nodramalama*

        I was also a court processer for a while and that was fairly unvaried and process driven. Think filing, sending out decisions, sending out notices, hearing dates etc etc

    4. Gitty*

      medical billing and specifically nursing home billing especially in a larger company is gonna be the same thing month after month after month

      1. Nocturna*

        I was going to suggest medical billing; I think most medical billing is pretty routine, regardless of size of company. I worked at a single practitioner office and the billing part was quite predictable. (I also worked reception, which was not so predictable.)

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Definitely aim smaller – I work for a 16-hospital organization, and our billing is anything but routine. :)

      2. Random Bystander*

        Insurance follow up (working for the facility) will also be in that same pretty much routine … a few outliers here and there, but mostly it’s the same thing over and over.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          Insurance companies also hire people to help process and resolve claims. (A lot is done by computers now, but there’s often a point that requires a human to look at things – especially on a paper claim.) It tends to be pretty routine work with very set processes.

      1. No Direct Reports*

        I was going to say this too. My company is large enough to have shared services, so even though there are 12 locations, all of the Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable and general ledger work is done at our corporate offices. The AP and AR work especially is very process driven, with little to no variation – you could definitely get a wily customer or vendor, and issues do pop up, but the day to day is very much the same every day.

      3. Fitz*

        Yes, accounts payable in particular. There are unusual situations that you have to troubleshoot, but mainly it’s just entering invoices day after day. I actually worry about finding enough variety to keep the AP person who works for my office interested!

    6. KA*

      I’m in payroll too and love it! If you’re wanting to expand your skillset a bit, you might consider going into tax preparation. During those months of the year, I do mostly the Same Thing Over and Over Again. Good luck!

      1. mkl*

        Excellent ideas above and I’ll throw out a suggestion about industry… consider looking for roles in the public sector, large not for profits and high stability industries like insurance. These organizations often have a structural preference for consistency and stability and are usually large enough that each role can settle into a well defined groove with strong schedule predictability. Avoid start ups, small not for profits and most any corner of the tech industry. These are dark woods best saved for freaks such as myself who love madcap variety.
        In fact, speaking of insurance, you might consider the regulatory side of banking, most any portion of insurance and internal audit roles at any large org.

        1. Banana Pyjamas*

          Public sector will depend on the size of the local unit and staffing levels. In small or understaffed jurisdictions you’ll need to wear multiple hats. For example the person who does payroll would also do accounts payable/receivable and acquisition. Other public sector options could be assessment office, especially the clerk responsible for transfer declarations. Some job titles that would fall under that purview could be administrative support, clerk, transfer clerk, assessment deputy, assessor followed by a number. The recorder’s office or recorder of deeds could also be a good choice.

        2. Anglonemi*

          Exactly what I came here to say, working with government contracts means regular deadlines and reporting, service delivery agreements with set processes, and while frontline staff might have VERY varied days (especially in any kind of support/keyworker role), quality and compliance or finance teams have a lot more structure

        3. Blanked on my AAM posting name*

          I was going to say much the same thing. I’m in the UK, and I don’t know if it’s the same in the US, but local government admin is very slow, routine and procedure-driven, so might suit you.

          I spent four weeks in a local government education department and realised within a few hours of starting that I was going to be horrendously bored as I much prefer having multiple tasks to jump between, but my colleagues enjoy it for what sounds like the same things you want from a job.

          Good luck finding something that suits you, OP5!

          1. NeonFireworks*

            I actually want to thank OP for raising this question. I’m one of those High Excitement types who thrives on novelty and unexpected interruptions. My biggest problem as an adult trying to earn a living is that I get bored at work very easily and want every project/meeting/conference to have something new and intriguing in it. Not until this letter did I realise I’ve been projecting somewhat and feeling bad for people whose jobs give them very little variety.

    7. Part time lab tech*

      Laboratories are places of habit as are some types of accounting and manufacturing (like food). Excitement is bad because it means something is stuffed.

      1. Lab Boss*

        Seconding laboratories with the caveat that it depends what’s going on. Some (like mine) will have lots of variation week to week or even day to day, depending on what work is coming in. Any lab role in Quality Control is probably going to be the least variable, in my experience those positions are literally just following the same written instructions, to the letter, over and over.

        1. The Happy Graduate*

          Can confirm, any Quality Control role – and espeicallly in pharmaceuticals – is the most day-to-day consistent work ever. I spent 1 year in it and hated it so much I changed my entire career plan because I can’t stand the same monotonous work!

    8. Kenelm*

      I feel like hiring managers will try to make their job posting more glamorous than the job will actually be. Just like there’s a very high chance that any desk adorned by a mug that reads “you don’t have to be crazy to work here, but it certainly helps!” will be the most mundane place of work in the universe.

      So in job postings it is important to consider the industry, department and job tasks. ex: janitor at an accounting firm? Probably won’t get more exciting than the occasional mess in the bathroom. Same job at a high school? Kids can be weird, so much higher chance you’ll be rushing from love gross situation to the next. A hair stylist in a barbershop? Just work your hours and you’ll be excited when someone asks for a new hair color. Same job at a movie set? That’s going to be very unpredictable.

    9. LateRiser*

      The most consistently repetitive job I’ve had was at a car auction house. Every day was alphabetising new car documents, logging the details in the system, filing them, pulling the documents of cars in the next auction and attaching the auction sheet to them. We’d take it in turns to go outside and scan the actual cars to get the order they were lined up in.

      I was a lowly admin for a few months, but the people who had been there for years and were in charge of particular accounts seemed to be doing the same tasks as I was for the vast majority of the workday.

    10. MistOrMister*

      Intellectual Property (i.e. patents/trademarks) Docketing tends to be pretty routine. You are generally processing the same types of documents every day. There always seem to be a ton of docketing positions open and I rarely have seen people be laid off from that department. The only possible issue is some places seem to be trying to look into software or systems that can be automated to do the work and allow the to cut back on staff but so far there doesn’t seem to be anything of that nature available.

      1. Anon4This*

        Assuming this is IP in the US, there are a number of outsourcing companies that are doing this work overseas now – as long as something is not export-controlled, it does not have to be done onshore.

        If going this route, too, I would look for a larger firm or organization for whom docketing would be a full-time role. Smaller organizations tend to have more of an other-duties-as-assigned component to them, often plus attorneys who aren’t keen on that’s-not-my-job.

    11. Variation*

      Do you want every day to be the same or do you want to have just one project at a time? Because those are not the same thing at all.

      It sounds like maybe both, but I’m not sure?

      Despite your premise in the question, most people I know struggle to have enough variety in their work days and I can think of plenty of jobs where the work is more or less the same on a day to day basis. That doesn’t mean you’re just doing that thing once/on a single project/linearly. I can think of jobs where you work on one project at a time but the day to day tasks can vary a lot. Some of this is job dependent, but some is company dependent.

      I don’t have anything to toss out in terms of specific jobs, but hope this framing is helpful.

      1. Tuckerman*

        That’s a great point. In many cases, doing the same thing every day is with lower pay (cashier, call center, pharm tech). But just one project at a time might have more room for financial growth.

        Higher paid routine task jobs might be specialist healthcare roles (e.g., a pediatric urgent care nurse will likely mostly see patients with viruses, asthma, minor injuries, pink eye…) and some trades (installing water heaters, appliance maintenance). There’s a company by me that has a program to get people into HVAC work quickly.

      2. doreen*

        I was wondering something similar – does the LW want predictability or a single function ? There was some discussion above about public sector and the possibility of needing to wear multiple hats in small jurisdictions which might mean the town clerk issues marriage licenses, birth and death certificates , permits for outdoor gatherings, business licenses and so on. But it’s predictable in the sense that there are a few functions that are all somewhat similar. Larger jurisdictions might have all of these functions in different departments – I go to one department for a marriage license or certificate , another for a birth/death certificate and a third for a block party permit. So that if it’s my job to issue marriage licenses, that might be all I do all day , every day – I might not even issue certificates, just licenses

      3. sb51*

        Yeah, that was my question too. I’m in a particular tech niche, and what I do day to day is pretty repetitive, but I’m constantly getting competing priorities thrown at me and having to task-switch and balance them, it’s just…the same four or five classes of tasks over and over. (It’s a good balance for me — both fast-paced feeling and playing to my strengths/building them deeper rather than learning entirely new things all the time).

      4. LW5*

        I honestly think I’d prefer days to be largely the same. But I’d settle for one project at a time. My job previous to this one was more like that, and while I still struggled with the lack of established processes, it was better for sure.

    12. AlaskaThunderfun*

      My suggestion is data entry! I’ve done data entry most of my career and left because I needed a change and more variety.

      I’ll use myself as an example. My data entry job we would be sent motor insurance claims via email, I would data enter the information into our database for action and then move straight onto the next claim request. The only variety in work was if we would get new clients submitting claims or an interesting description of the accident.

      The downside is that a lot of the time you’re working to KPIs and can burn yourself out (like me)

      1. LaurCha*

        Came here to say this. The most utterly predictable, repetitive job I’ve ever had was data entry for the IRS. I could just get to typing and listen to my Walkman (yes, it was the 90s) and kind of zone out for hours. I never took anything home with me, either mentally or physically. In, work, out, done.

      2. Azure Jane Lunatic*

        Agreed, the most excitement I’ve ever had in data entry was trying to make Excel chop up an input file into the format that the eventual output had to be in.

        Unrelated, I love your username, as an Alaskan and as a drag appreciator.

    13. Jules*

      #5 – College Admissions Operations! The bulk of the work is processing transcripts, letters of recommendations, test scores, etc, and attaching them to the correct student’s application. Maybe key in some data points from the documents. Most documents are submitted electronically, but you might also do some mail opening and document scanning too.

      1. Hyaline*

        Adding student records and registrar offices, as well–a lot of university offices are mostly processing the same dozen forms and maintaining data. There may be seasonal cycles (what time of the semester is the busiest, crunch right before graduation, etc) but the basic work functions are often repetitive. Or campus scheduling, though that can be a little hectic and only if you enjoy solving spatial puzzles. (One large university I worked at had, I swear, one guy handling all room requests. I think he hated everyone and everything.)

      2. Future Cat Lady*

        I was going to say something financial in a university setting, as there is an academic year cycle, and I’ve had pretty good benefits with two jobs at two different universities in the USA.

    14. Lover of Boring*

      I wish I had a better answer to this, but you cant always trust job descriptions. It seems like a lot of jobs think it’s a good thing to claim they’re a high-pressure environment where work is constantly changing even when that’s not the case. I took a “everyday is different” analyst job out of desperation a few years ago, and it was delightfully boring and monotonous.

      I know it’s not always possible, but if you can talk to people working in the position/company you’re interested in, you’ll get a much more honest answer about what the day-to-day is actually like.

      As for an actual answer to the question, I only have a sample size of one company, but working as an allocation analyst for a retail company was very consistent.

      1. LingNerd*

        My last job was as an allocation analyst! Well, technically a replenishment analyst, but those two jobs were functionally almost identical at my company. I was bored out of my mind. It was good for me for a while, to learn office norms and get some experience. But it got to the point when I was a little bit relieved to be laid off several months into the pandemic because I kind of hated my job. My ideal job would be one that involves lots of investigation/deep dives into problem solving and short term projects. In other words, plenty of variability! Pretty much the opposite of the LW

    15. Chauncy Gardener*

      I was going to say payroll until I read the rest of your question, OP! Accounts Payable is very similar. Accounts Receivable is also similar, but if you do collections as well, there’s a lot of customer contact.
      Good luck!

    16. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      Archive management. The department here deals with engineering diagrams from the birth of the railway. From what I gather it’s not that changeable.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        This is going to 100% depend on the archive. I would think anything records management or rec0rds retention focused would be more routine. I’ve always worked the more public side of archives and it is not routine at all, which I love.

    17. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

      I’ve had a few jobs in database administration that were like this. One was nonprofit database administration, another was in TV ad sales, a third was for state government – the jobs were all pretty similar, just different contexts.

      It’s a very different type of role but I’d also describe the tech/backend roles on my current digital marketing team as very routine. These are the folks who are building templates/targeting email blasts/building reports/coding web pages – not the content creation folks (whose work is more varied/project-driven).

      Database admin was more medium-term cycles (weighted more toward weekly or monthly projects), whereas the marketing-tech roles are more short-term cycles (weighted toward daily projects). Both have very predictable workloads and expectations.

    19. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Bookkeeping/accounting. AP, revenues, payroll, etc. OP already worked in payroll and liked it, so sticking with that seems like a good plan.

    20. Emac*

      I’m in a program coordinator role and once I’ve been through the yearly cycle once, I imagine that it will be fairly consistent in terms of work tasks. It’s for a university and there are several classes that I manage which are all slightly different, but I don’t anticipate the classes changing very much year to year and it’s a pretty established program, so I think it will become pretty routine. But I don’t know if OP wants something that is routine right off the start or if they’re willing to learn a longer process.

    21. J*

      I work as a paralegal doing trademark prosecution – there are surprises here and there, but the overall workflow is really steady. Once you get the hang of things, processes for different tasks stay the same, so even the things that were curveballs the first time are easy by the second or third. Ymmv depending on where you go and what specifically the job entails though.

    22. litprof*

      Many administrative jobs in higher ed, while not exactly repetitive, have workflows that are seasonal/cyclical, and therefore very predictable. For example, in August you know you will always be doing X, Y, and Z to prepare for the start of the school year, and tasks A and B have to be complete by the end of each semester. I don’t have a specific field in mind, but if you are open to stability/lack of variety on a slightly longer timeframe, then many jobs at colleges and universities could be right for you.

      1. Frankie*

        I don’t know how much this is true anymore–my experience in higher ed in a few different roles is an increasing sense of constant change with a fair amount of firefighting coming both from daily work and changing processes & structures. But maybe in smaller departments/niche groups, you could find something with more rhythm?

    24. Caro*

      Anything to do with payroll or finance is a good bet, where it’s interesting and there’s some variety WITHIN the routine, but there are set times and dates, and a clear pattern with not a great deal of sudden, wild segues. If you are a mathematically-inclined person, this may be right for you. Administrative roles in court systems, whilst often somewhat high level, tend to follow routines and patterns and follow annual terms.

      I don’t mind a bit of variety and learning new things along the way, but I am not a LETS DO THIS AMAZING / URGENT / HUGE / ENTIRELY UNFORESEEN THING!! person, and even my best friend would not accuse me of spontaneity!

    25. [insert witty username here]*

      I’d recommend something in banking, like loan processing/servicing.

    27. County Government*

      In the U.S. – Recording clerk at a county land records office (often called the County Recorder, Register of Deeds or Registrar of Deeds, or sometimes lumped into the County Clerk’s function). You record documents all day and occasionally help walk-in folks with questions. I’m sure there are equally thrilling jobs in other parts of city/county government.

      1. fine-tipped pen aficionado*

        One thing to be aware of when looking at government jobs, which might all seem pretty dull from the outside, is that if you are looking at specifically municipal work, those employees are asked to do a lot of random stuff that may not immediately come to mind when thinking of what a Clerk does. The smaller the city, the less able it is to have specialized roles and the more unpredictable your workflow is likely to become.

        If you’re reading this LW, stick to finance departments or County/State government roles for your needs. I feel like there is too much uncertainty with the Federal civic service right now to recommend that path.

    28. Stuart Foote*

      I’ve worked in a call center and I can say that every day there is extremely predictable. You clock in at exactly the same time, clock out at exactly the same time, and the vast majority of calls are pretty much the same. The pay is not amazing but many of these large companies do offer solid benefits.

      1. Solstice*

        This is not true of all call center jobs. Do NOT go into market research recruiting/survey call centers if a variable level of urgency and balancing multiple projects is a negative for you.

        1. Azure Jane Lunatic*

          During my call center time (market research/survey, and tech support) we got switched between campaigns throughout the day as needed, in market research, and in tech support every call had the potential to be something different with the potential for an extremely upset person and the chance that we could not solve their problems. I developed an aversion to phones from those jobs, that’s taken a decade and more so I don’t flinch at the sound of a ringing phone. Plus whatever the actual assigned tasks lacked in variety, my co-workers and co-worker based emergencies were a source of plentiful variety.

          Those were also not particularly highly paid positions, which is one of LW5’s priorities.

    29. Fives*

      LW5, I feel you. If you’re a good writer, technical writing. 90% of my time is writing, 10% is occasional copy editing. Plus, we regularly have to update existing materials, so there’s a lot of repetition. We do have priority projects but it’s still in the same wheelhouse. I know some might find it boring but I don’t!

      1. i like hound dogs*

        I’m a corporate proofreader, not a technical writer, but I agree. Things flow into my inbox; I proofread them. Rinse and repeat. I like it.

        That said, the writing side has a lot more jobs. I live in a big(ish) city and I feel like there are like four total proofreading jobs available, lol.

        The other thing I’ll say is that, in my experience, corporate jobs are better for this than smaller companies. I’m never expected to step out of my lane here like I was when I worked for small companies. I’m a fan.

      2. Nonym*

        Along the same lines, I was going to mention translation and revision. Depending on where and how you work, the texts themselves can be varied but the day-to-day is pretty much the same: for the most part, it’s sit down and translate or revise.

        You also typically only work on one project at a time. In one job, I would literally receive one project, do it, and get a new one. But even in other positions, I would have several projects lined up and do them one-by-one. So it’s not like you’re actually juggling several projects at the same time.

      3. LW5*

        This is something I would LOVE to get into! I’ve been searching for entry-level technical writing jobs. My background is in data analytics. If you have suggestions on how to break in, I’d love to hear them please!

        1. Fives*

          I kind of fell into it by accident. I couldn’t get a job in my chosen writing field, which ends up being similar to technical writing, but I got a job at a financial institution to pay the bills. Once I was there I found out about a technical writing position and have been here for about 15 years.

          So look at companies that you wouldn’t ordinarily look at, like in my case of financial institutions operations department.

      4. VeryDifferentExperience*

        Huh? I’ve been a tech writer for >30 years at a variety of companies and I’ve never had a job that didn’t involve constantly changing gears, tasks, focus, etc. My tech writer friends and I have discussed how one thing we like about the job is the variety. It is literally the opposite of what OP wants.

        1. Fives*

          So clearly we have different experiences. I’ve been doing this for about 15 years and my experience is you do different projects, but it’s all pretty much the same kind of work. I’m glad yours has the variety that you like.

    30. Lacey*

      I used to work for a small publisher (regional newspapers & magazines) and the schedule was an incredibly predictable cycle that was easy to learn because it all centered on our publishing deadlines and those didn’t change.

    31. Plebeian Aristocracy*

      A lot of the more “menial jobs” fall in this category, but are actually super important and can be hard to fill. Things like being a night guard or janitorial service. Likewise, a lot of trade jobs (plumber, electrician) are self employment situations where you get to choose what you do. Setting your own schedule could help make things feel more routine.

    32. EchidnaPurpurea*

      I work in financial aid at a university and although the customer service aspect can vary a bit, since every case is different etc etc, there is a strong seasonal rhythm to it that I really enjoy. We get the same projects at the same time of year every year. Unless there’s a big debacle like with this year’s FAFSA that throws a wrench in everything, but that’s very rare. Mostly it’s just the right amount of variance, like listening to the same album over and over rather than just one song.

    33. Donkey Option*

      I work in chemical regulatory compliance – writing Safety Data Sheets and labels and such. The work I do as a consultant is pretty varied, but back when I was in industry, it was usually just the same day in and day out. Sometimes there’d be a new product line or whatever, but since a lot of companies switched to software, it’s pretty routine. It does sometimes require a science background, though not all companies do. And there’s a huge shortage of people to do this work because too many people find it boring. If you want more information, schc.org is a good resource (it’s a professional group.)

    34. Anon for this*

      I work as a copyeditor for standardized tests, and I would say the work is the same day to day. We have busier seasons and a variety of projects, but almost everything stems from the same skills. You have to be pretty good at minutiae for this job, but I get very few true curveballs thrown at me.

    35. Excel Gardener*

      A lot of government jobs are very routine, especially those that you might call “bureaucrat” jobs (for want of a better term). In fact, the scope of your department or even your role is often legally defined, and so new projects are rare because they have to fall into that pre-defined scope. My last job was in state government, and while the details of what I did could vary occasionally, for the most part I could plan out my work months in advance and any changes were minor and slow-coming.

      I will warn you though, I used to think of myself as someone who wanted a more stable, predictable workflow, but by the end of my third year in state government the lack of variety had become soul crushing. So I ultimately left for the private sector because (in part) I was sick of doing the same things on the same projects year over year.

    36. Burned Out Banker*

      I worked in benefits for an HR outsourcing company and nearly every day was the same. It varied in that some days I would do open enrollment for all employees of one company and another day I would be updating 401K enrollment for employees of one company, but the work was always within the same few repetitive tasks. HR outsourcing would be great for you!

    37. Cacofonix*

      I have such respect for people who love predictable jobs. I hate them myself but I can’t do what I love to do without the joy of working with good people in skilled jobs that require cyclical and somewhat invariable work processes. Some professions I’ve run into in the past are:
      – legal assistants and paralegal in practices with high volume work like real estate, wills, claims etc. Also notaries.
      – insurance claims, case management
      – application processing such as for licensing, mortgage, professional designation, education, permits
      – IT support operations
      – physical work or office adjacent in manufacturing- often very regulated.
      – logistics and transportation. Such as managing preventative maintenance, fleet logistics etc.

      All that said, these might also be areas changing due to AI and automation? But the best people in these areas are gold.

    38. Rage*

      Contract Management/Administration? My ADHD brain hates it because it’s such a “slow burn” type of role (I like fast-paced, short-duration tasks) – we have our “busy” season (which will vary by industry and org), sure, but it’s mostly just reading the same-old-same-old documents, flagging problematic language, and negotiating terms. And documenting, documenting, documenting.

      Good pay, too.

      1. Spreadsheet Queen*

        Ooo! Not for a small Gov’t contractor, it isn’t. You gotta thrive on chaos for that! (Mainly because you get dragged into doing proposals. But there are also times a new contract term or a change in your business size might mean you’re suddenly writing a new policy on a quick turn. Plus negotiating with larger contractors is a time suck.)
        However – financial analyst or project control jobs on the business side of a Gov’t contractor (not too small though or you’ll get dragged into pricing proposals and backing up your contracts person) is very predictable. There’s a schedule for monthly reporting, schedule for updating internal operating budgets, etc. Yes, you do get questions in on doing estimates on a quick turn for a customer, but if you’re maintaining your budgets already, you have most of the data, so it isn’t too bad.

      2. RR*

        oh no no no. as Spreadsheet Queen notes, many contract administration jobs require a high degree of comfort with chaos, and NOT just for smaller organizations. I’ve worked in contract management for a couple of decades for a range of organizations and love it because no two days are the same. It’s the exact opposite of what LW is looking for.

    40. VoPo*

      My husband is like you LW! He has a job at a law firm doing conflicts analysis (very basically researching potential firm clients to make sure there are no existing conflicts of interest with other firm clients). There are busier times, but even then, the process is the same just with additional requests.

      I’m the other end where I crave variety, so his job sounds like my nightmare. But my job (head of business operations at an edtech company) would make him tear out his hair.

    41. Eloo*

      Power utility settlements, maybe. It’s like billing, but for the energy traded between power companies. My impression is that it’s a lot of checking that numbers match up, but I haven’t worked in settlements myself.

      The power industry as a whole is pretty stable, since there’s always demand for electricity.

    42. I spend more time thinking of a name than writing the comment.*

      Library technician may be something to consider (circulation, access services, etc.). Having worked in public and academic libraries for 15+ years in a variety of roles, I can confidently say library work is often repetitive and cyclical.

      1. Picky*

        I would very much not recommend library work for somebody who needs routine, particularly not public libraries. The constant interruptions, the need to be flexible with each situation that arises, the constant changes to interfaces, standards, and processes… Shelving would work, or if the specific library you’re at has a full-time cataloguing position. I worked at one library that was big enough for that, but they happened to be very donor-dependant so there would be a sudden, all-hands-on-deck rush to find a specific book the donor can only remember is blue. The fact that there is repetitive work isn’t the same as predictability, at least in the libraries I’ve worked in.

    43. GS*

      I was in campus recruiting and I found it incredibly boring. You literally do the same thing without fail on the same timeline every single year. You can occasionally have like – changes to your program or interns that do something wild, but overall there was pretty much no variation.

    44. LW5*

      OP here! Thanks so much for posting my question Alison! I had forgotten I sent it in! Of course today happens to be a day when I’m in training most of the day, but I want to preemptively thank everyone for the suggestions! I will be going through these later on today. I hope to hit on something great. As mentioned in my letter, I’m currently a business analyst and I’ve been struggling big time. Therapy has helped me accept that my autism diagnosis means routine is a better fit for me long term.

      1. SlightlyDifferent*

        Just FYI, tech writers and business analysts have similar roles but one tends to be documenting pre-implementation (business analyst) and the other typically post implementation (tech writer). If you don’t like going a business analyst you likely won’t like being a tech writer (suggested for you above)

        1. LW5*

          Thanks for the insight! Technical writing is something I’ve been looking to get into. Can you elaborate a little bit on the similarities? My favorite part of my current job is the documentation. Everything else, like diving into unknown data, QA testing, and “exploratory” analyses is what disrupts me.

      2. Solstice*

        I wondered, reading the letter, if there might be neurodivergence involved. I’m AuDHD, so I’m stuck between wanting routine and easily getting bored. For me, working at a restaurant has meant a limited number of tasks I’ll be asked to perform, with rushes and large orders for spice. Still, I chafe at a lack of predictability on busy days vs. calm ones.

        1. LW5*

          Spot on! I am working with a therapist to help process my neurodivergence, and that’s where a lot of these realizations about what works for me came from.

    45. Betsy S*

      When I worked at a State University I sometimes worked with the Purchasing department and their work seemed somewhat orderly. There were headaches: audits, bids to process, annual contract renewals, regulation changes , but everything happened within a standard framework. (but check with someone who’s actually had this sort of job as I was on the outside)
      In general I think large government organizations have a lot of roles that are very standardized. People keeping things moving through the works. Of course, the higher the level of the role, the more you get thrown the anomalies.

    46. Raisineye*

      Medical Lab work! you are assigned to your bench on your shift, you know what processes you will have to complete, your day is done and you go home. I generally really like my work (I also like a stable day). also, mailroom work. that’s what I started in, but pay isn’t great. And I don’t have to deal w patients.

    47. Picky*

      In every field I have worked in, you can get very regimented, predictable tasks at the lowest level. After that, being able to juggle and manage multiple demands, with little to no prior notice, is pretty much expected. Are you going to be happy at that basic level for your whole career? This is something to consider in case you are hoping to move up.

      1. LW5*

        I don’t really place much emphasis on moving up or growing in my career. I’d like to find a job I enjoy and do that pretty much until I retire. Compensation, however, is always a consideration. The jobs I’ve been best at where the ones that paid the least, unfortunately. I’ve been considering asking for my old job back at a prior company, because while it wasn’t as process-oriented as I’d prefer, it was pretty much one project at a time. I failed to realize how much that suited me at the time, and I let petty little annoyances push me to search elsewhere.

    48. Toots La'Rue*

      Pretty far from #5’s industry, but in my office (cable TV company with various broadcast streams) the jobs I know of that are pretty predictable day-by-day are Promo Scheduling and Traffic Log Schedulers in case other people are looking for that kind of regularity!

      Both of those jobs basically fill in the small elements that go around the TV programs (commercials, promos, the ratings graphic you see up in the corner…). You are responsible for finishing 1-2 days for broadcast every day so each day is very similar. Only curve balls tend to be schedule changes (you can’t get too precious about having to reschedule something that’s already finished, even if you JUST finished it) or holiday advanced schedules, where your deadlines compress ahead of scheduled office holidays.

    49. Dandylions*

      Finance is a sweet spot for me of always knowing X reports are due during Y days. The only downside is financial close responsibilities means you can’t take time off at the beginning or end of the month and sometimes have to work day’s like the 4th and New Years.

    50. Second Choice*

      Real Estate Appraisal, especially if you’re in a city. At the entry level/junior level, in a city, you’d likely be doing a lot of condos. It’s pretty routine. At the senior levels, you’d be seeing unique properties more frequently but maybe only once or twice a month.

    51. Mama llama*

      I second the comment above saying you should be an actuary! A couple acquaintances do that. Seems to be pretty dang predictable and good money if you have a good brain for numbers.

    52. RPOhno*

      Health Physics Technician can be pretty press-button-receive-bacon except in emergencies, and even then you’d likely be directed by more senior staff. Takes some training to get the hang of it, but one of the better HP techs I know was a food service supervisor before he was a tech, so it’s not like you always need a specific technical degree to get in the door

    53. 15 Pieces of Flair*

      AP/AR roles tend to have very defined, consistent workflows. While this isn’t my department, I recently interviewed candidates as part of the hiring team for an AR role, and the hiring manager specifically hired for someone who could thrive in a routine and unexciting job.

    54. Just me*

      I worked AP/AR at a small corporation. This was very much a routine job with easily categorized times for things to be done. As more advanced database management from vendors emerged it became even more a quickly done process. At which point I added inventory control for one of the branches to my repertoire. This was a bit more interesting but still a relatively routine process. Might be worth your checking into.

  2. CloudBird*

    #1 OP, please get your wife the book “The Gift of Fear”. She’s doing the best she can to deal with this, but she could use some expert advice. This book explains a lot about how to deal with these situations. The instinct we have to let people down nicely and not hurt their feelings works against when we run into a man who doesn’t understand or care what no means. He’s not hearing her. When she told him where she was going for dinner, that sounded to him like an invitation to be there. He’s officially stalking her and she needs to stop all non-work related communication with him immediately.

    This isn’t about her being responsible for his harassment. It’s about educating herself about men like him and what the most effective ways of dealing with them are. I had a stalker once and I approached it the way she did, I didn’t want to be seen as overreacting, I didn’t want to make the situation worse by showing anger, I thought I could be nice and let him down gently. And none of that was the right thing to do, and it definitely didn’t work. But I didn’t know any better at the time.

    I hope HR comes through for your wife and supports her. Hopefully he cares more about his job, then he does about continuing to harass your wife and he will correct his behavior rather than lose his job.

    1. Sleve*

      This is good advice. While she shouldn’t have to arm herself against this stuff, and it’s definitely not her fault when it happens, “The Gift of Fear” is nevertheless an excellent resource.

      Think of it as being a bit like reading the airplane safety card in the seat in front of you. You hope you don’t need to use it, and it’s not your fault if you did read the card but it doesn’t help because the oxygen mask above your seat was installed wrong. You don’t have control over any of those things. But that doesn’t mean it’s not helpful to read the card so you know what you can do in the case of an emergency you didn’t cause.

    2. Allonge*

      For that matter, OP, read the book yourself. What you are describing has all the potential to get much, much worse; it helps to know just how much.

      1. Boof*

        the book is helpful because it lists red flags for violence vs when things are less likely to go there, and how to grey rock those

    3. RC*

      Sigh, I just wish I hadn’t learned from John Oliver last night that Gavin De Becker donated a bunch of money to RFKJr’s campaign and blurbed a completely false book about how covid vaccines killed young people…

      2. Teaching teacher*

        I did not know that, but I do know that on any chat board or subreddit that discussed things like this, someone always posts a link to a free PDF of this book, so the OPs wife can read the free one without giving them money that can be funneled to RFKjr.

      3. Frankie Bergstein*

        I was just thinking the same thing! Is there another author who has written something equally useful but is a bit better friends with reality? _Why does he do that?_

        1. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

          Lundy Bancroft – ‘Why Does He Do That’ is about distinguishing the types of men who abuse and how they go about it but it gives you an excellent creep sense. It doesn’t go into how to protect yourself though, it’s more of a ‘how to spot these dickheads incoming’.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Maybe start recommending quick-read.com’s _Gift_ summary? Link in next comment so this one comes through easily.

          _Why Does He Do That_ is great, and available for free on the web as a PDF, no author concerns that I know about. Unfortunately, it doesn’t have the action plans that _Gift of Fear_ does. It’s more for people who are hoping they can change someone and stop them from being abusive, or who are wondering if it’s abuse.

          2. Starbuck*

            Unfortunately Lundy Bancroft has said some pretty bigoted things about trans women and what their access to domestic violence services should be like… I think his writing on archetypes of abusive behavior, and what it actually looks like or if it’s possible for an abuser to change is still very good. But I have a hard time recommending him to my trans or queer friends anymore (or at all) because of that.

        3. Jules the 3rd*

          I think the solution is to start with the short version of _Gift of Fear_ (GoF), then the full book of _Why Does He Do That_ (WD?).

          GoF tells women to trust their gut, and some basic examples of how manipulators work in one-time interactions. WD? mostly focuses on repeated, romantic partnership interactions, but the advice he gives is useful once someone has escalated to stalking. It is especially useful in describing the external support that stalkers and abusers can get, and how to deal with it.

      4. LaurCha*

        Ugh, gross.

        It’s still a superb book and there’s nothing else out there that covers that territory.

        1. duinath*

          Yep. The Gift of Fear and Why Does He Do That? (Lundy Bancroft) are invaluable resources in this world, even though at least one if not both of them have some problemqtic aspects. You take what you can use, and you leave the rest.

          Being good at this doesn’t mean being good at everything, and being bad in another subject doesn’t take away the knowledge and skill in this subject.

          1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

            Right, but buying his book means giving him money, i.e., literally supporting him. It isn’t about philosophical differences or ignoring “bad parts”, but about tangible support that he then turns around and gives to a repugnant cause.

            I’ve never read any of these books, but I recently saw Outsmarting The Sociopath Next Door recommended. Anyone here heard of it?

            1. Velawciraptor*

              The “giving him money” concern can be avoided by checking the book out from the library.

              2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

                Incorrect. The library then buys the book instead of me.

                I guess no one has read the other book.

            3. My oh my*

              Omg, the puritanical purity tests. Do you really think the dollar or two you give him by buying his book is going to make a difference? Here’s some consumer things you can do that actually make a difference – eating less animal products (less animal torture), not buying fast fashion (less Chinese child labor), using less heat in the winter (less impact on climate which helps everyone), etc etc. Off to go look at my Harry Potter books :-)

                1. Argiope Aurantia*

                  Right there with you, Moira.

                  “*I* am doing the consumer bans correctly because my actions are based on things that don’t involve treating people like trash because of their identity, therefore I’m better than all of you! LOL! ::kisses::”

                  There just aren’t enough eye rolls in the world for this kind of stance.

      5. Typity*

        The Gift of Fear, which was written more than 25 years ago, has been a life-saving resource for many, many people, particularly women. It can be purchased used or borrowed from a library if one does not wish to support de Becker’s current views.

        If there are equally valuable substitutes, obviously that might be preferable. But if the information in GoF was correct and useful when de Becker wrote it, that doesn’t change because he’s wrong about other things — even many, many other things — a quarter century later.

    4. Brain the Brian*

      I’m going to be blunt: I haven’t read this book, but based on online summaries, I really think giving it to someone actively experiencing stalking and harassment is a great way to give them nightmares. I’m sure the LW’s wife is already aware that this guy is a creep — she’s said so herself! — and she just needs strategies to get him out of her life ASAP. HR is one such route; law enforcement is another if he goes much further at all. Showing up at a bar he hates to leer at her is really, really creepy; she doesn’t need a book to tell her that.

      1. HQB*

        I have read the book, and it is very focused on strategies and specific actions one can take, and how to know exactly when to take them.

        1. The other sage*

          It gives you permission to trust your gut instinct. This is important because many there are a lot of people out there who have been told all their lives that they are wrong.

          1. pally*

            Yes! It helped me with articulating that uneasy feeling I get with some people. It’s entirely okay to have that feeling and to act upon it to protect yourself.

            Sometimes people will say, “Oh, you are just imagining things.” Maybe. Maybe not. But why do I have to take the risk here if someone actually is an unsafe person?

          2. Boof*

            It does more than that, it gives some lists of things like red flags for violent behavior (vs annoying but not likely to escalate to physically threatening behavior), and some tricks on how to make yourself a small target, things that don’t work and when/how they don’t work (I’m looking at you restraining orders)

            1. former victim of DV and stalking*

              Restraining orders are nothing more than a sentencing enhancement when they are violated. And yes, “when” rather than “if” is intentional.

            2. Giant_Kitty*

              In my personal experience, restraining orders *have* worked, but only because the people I had to get them for were or had reason to be extremely fearful of police and/or going to/back to jail.

          3. Deborah Vance, Vance Refrigeration*

            Yes, this. There’s an example right at the beginning of the book of a woman who somehow knew she shouldn’t accept a man’s offer to help, but did it anyway because he sort of manipulated her to ignore her own instincts.

      2. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        @Brain the Brian

        No, she would benefit from the framework of the book. When there’s an actual risk, the priority can’t be “don’t find out what are the risks, in case you get scared”.

        This is inherently a worrying situation, and the book is good calibration for “this is the bit you need to worry about and these are the actions” vs “these are the things people worry about which are actually low-risk, and here’s why”.

      3. Boof*

        I used the book when I had an active stalker and it was extremely helpful in knowing what I ought to do to protect myself, what red flags to look for that things might turn violent, and in turn what to stress when communicating with authorities. No one is perfect but honestly it’s a great starting point.

      4. LaurCha*

        Your impression is incorrect. It’s a validating and empowering book with a lot of real-world advice. It’s not perfect, but it’s well worth reading no matter what you are going through. Maybe you should read it yourself?

      5. Observer*

        and she just needs strategies to get him out of her life ASAP. HR is one such route; law enforcement is another if he goes much further at all.

        Well, no. She *does* need strategies, but your advice is not going to get her very far. Because going to the police is often not helpful, and even when it is, (potential) victims also need to employ other strategies.

        As for going to HR? Of course she should report it if her HR is at all competent. But the idea that that’s “enough” and “will” solve the problem is incredibly naive.

        “Scary” reality based advice is a lot more useful than generalities.

      6. Frank Doyle*

        Maybe reserve the recommendations or non-recommendations for those who *have* read the book, then?

      7. Crencestre*

        Being helpless in the face of stalking and harassment is a great way to find yourself in a waking “nightmare” ! It’s much better to have the information you need to protect yourself.

      8. Ellis Bell*

        Law enforcement can be an absolutely terrible idea, as you’d know if you read the book. GdB gives strategies based on women being safe, not aimed at Achieving Ultimate Justice and the less she personally does in this sort of situation, like leaving it to HR, the better. It’s a good idea to read the book because if she has an incompetent HR which forces her to be the driving force and get a restraining order, she can point to the potentially tragic outcomes of doing so, and statistics in the book. As far as terrifying her goes, yeah there are terrifying examples in the book, as well as very mundane ones and GdB opinion that stalking tactics are very common and everyday, and usually do nothing more serious than upset and annoy women. The book contains accurate checklists of danger signs and assessments of when a situation warrants the most concern. Also, she’s a woman so I doubt this is entirely new territory. She’s definitely been followed around or surveilled before and while you never stop feeling fear, it’s not really possible to be too afraid or to choke, you just need to know that your fears are justified.

      9. Brain the Brian*

        Alright, I stand corrected — and in this case, I’m glad to be. Thanks for the replies, everyone.

      10. is it 2028 yet?*

        I’m also going to be blunt: if you haven’t read the book or dealt with this kind of thing (especially at work) then please sit this one out for a bit. I’ve read the book and dealt with this scenario in a work and classroom context and it would be a helpful resource for the LW’s spouse. Also, the creepy coworker sucks.

        1. Brain the Brian*

          Fair enough. I think I was gut-reacting to the number of people in my life who’ve tried to “help” me in various scenarios by buying me a book that wound up being utterly useless (and I hate reading anyway — I always feel like people are silently judging my choice in literature). Anyway, that’s not an excuse for commenting when I have nothing valuable to add, and I’ll try to stay in my lane better in the future. Thanks for the reminder.

      1. Audrey Puffins*

        Also while we’re adding caveats, it’s widely recognised that the domestic violence chapter is an absolute one-to-skip if you do choose to give this book a go. Just tear it out or tape it shut or something.

        1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

          I actually think the victim-blaming vibe permeates the rest of the book in subtle ways, as well. You can’t entirely solve that by skipping one chapter.

          But it still is a valuable resource, for the amount of experience of how these things work in reality.

          1. Allonge*

            Yeah – I don’t know when and how it will be possible to write a book on what victims or potential victims can do and not seem overall (somewhat) victim-blamey. It can be done better and worse, but it’s not an easy thing to do.

            Hopefully someone will figure it out soon. In the meanwhile, I will take the practical suggestions this book has.

        2. Observer*

          t’s widely recognised that the domestic violence chapter is an absolute one-to-skip if you do choose to give this book a go. Just tear it out or tape it shut or something.

          So much so, that DeBecker himself has said that this chapter is wrong.

        3. Frank Doyle*

          Yes, I’ve seen this book recommended for years, and it’s always accompanied by this caveat.

      2. AnnieB*

        Racist fear of Black men? Absolutely.

        Sexist fear of men in general? Not so much. There’s so much information out there now on domestic violence rates, it’s clear that this is not women being irrational misandrists but a genuine fear that we belittle and dismiss.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          And this is where I come in. IME most women don’t go far enough with precautions. This guy has shown disregard for boundaries and social rules. We don’t know how far he will take this, so it’s best to take every precaution. If it were me, I would make sure there are other people around when I go to and from my car and lock the car as soon as I get in. If she takes transit, can you walk her to and from her train or bus? Or can someone else do that?
          While she is at work, no communication that’s not necessary and work related. No smiles, only brief acknowledgments of his existence. No eye contact. Never be alone with him. Behave as she would with someone she doesn’t like and doesn’t want to be around, because this creep never was and never will be her friend. She should let her boss and HR know about this, so they can back her up.
          If he escalates after this, she might have to call him out. When she does, he will blame her and say he was just being friendly, she’s crazy, etc. She needs to stand firm and say he cannot treat her like this and she will call authorities if necessary. If he doesn’t back off then, call 911 or building security.
          Never worry about his feelings or what happens to him. He is bringing all this on himself.

          1. Chauncy Gardener*

            THIS +100000
            And document document document! I also think she should be ready to escalate to law enforcement if necessary.
            This is not a good situation.
            I wish her the very best of luck in dealing with this.

          2. Ready for the weekend*

            Same. He showed up at a restaurant that she said she was going to be at. That speaks volumes.

              1. duinath*

                That way it’s obvious to *her* that he did it on purpose, while if anyone else asks he still has that shield of coincidence.

            2. Boof*

              Showed up, made eye contact, and didn’t say hello- creepy on multiple levels. Like if they genuinely thought it was an open event and ok to show up and hang out together… why did they not then do that???

          3. Dust Bunny*

            Second paragraph: This.

            I confess I gasped when I got to the part where she told him she was going to Restaurant X. He’s already shown he doesn’t respect boundaries! Don’t tell him that! Don’t ever tell him where you’re going or what you’re doing outside of the workplace. I suppose she didn’t want to “overreact” but, yes, in cases like this–“overreact”! He doesn’t need to know and he can’t be trusted.

            1. MassMatt*

              This. She needs to stop treating him like any kind of friend and stop telling him anything about her life, where she is going, or what she is doing.

              The “you’re crazy, of COURSE we’re just friends “ line was telling, as was his showing up to the restaurant after he claimed not to like it because he knew she’d be there.

            2. Rex Libris*

              Absolutely. I’m not a psychologist, but my impression is that this sort of person will take any attempt to be “nice” any conversation, any interaction as a tacit invitation to continue pursuing whoever they’re fixated on.

              He may already have a delusional relationship with her built up in his mind where he thinks she’s just being coy because she’s married, they work together, etc. Making polite conversation or mentioning where she’s going to have dinner is just going to reinforce that for him.

              1. DJ Abbott*

                Yes, and this is where many people go wrong. It’s better to be too cautious than not cautious enough! Forget about him being a friend or talking to him unless it’s absolutely necessary, and protect yourself. It’s clear in this case he’s a creep, but for others- don’t wait for proof before taking precautions. If someone’s feelings are hurt, they’ll get over it.
                I never talk about my social life at work on general principles. There’s always someone around who will behave inappropriately. Our current manager is just the type to show up at my social event and act like we’re friends. Sigh.

            3. Slightly Less Evil BunnyI*

              Many years ago during undergrad, I inadvertently told a man who was trying to chat me up that I studied at a particular library. I don’t even remember saying it, it must’ve just been an aside. A brief mention that I said without thinking. We were passing on a stairway in the student union, and he had started a conversation. And, being polite, I replied. And then, he just kept working to continue the conversation. I was trying to leave to head to one of my classes, but he just kept asking questions. And, being polite, I kept replying. He wound up asking me out, and I trotted out the imaginary boyfriend (since I was single), which didn’t dissuade him at all. After all, he only wanted to go out as friends! Surely no boyfriend would have a problem with that, right? Eventually he asked me for my phone number and I took the total coward’s way out, by giving him a wrong one. He seemed satisfied, and I headed to my class, and quickly forgot all about it.

              Weeks later, I was studying in that particular library late one night, when I look up to see him standing right next to the table I’m working at. He told me that he tried calling the number I gave him but it was obviously the wrong one, so he had been coming to the library over and over to try and find me. I distinctly remember looking around and saying to myself, “there are other people here, he can’t hurt me because there are witnesses”. Eventually, after telling me off for my dishonesty, and how terrible I was to treat someone so badly who was just looking for friends, he left. I think I must’ve run the several blocks home after that, looking behind me the whole time.

              I’m a lot less polite now.

              1. Carol the happy*

                I had to be taught that “Their” feelings weren’t precious glass for me to protect.
                “No” is a complete sentence.
                “Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will rape and kill them.”

                Most men aren’t dangerous. But the ones who are need to be stopped.

                Decades ago, I lived in San Antonio, Texas. My father was retired military and a contractor, so we had access to base facilities; the swimming pools were especially needed in the heat. The base also had foreign military students of all military ranks, who were from cultures where women simply wouldn’t dare go to public pools in swimsuits.

                Some of the men were really obnoxious- and worse. (Being a fifteen-year-old girl, having someone in his forties grope you in a pool, ugh.) They also constantly demanded phone numbers, and wouldn’t leave until we gave one. So one of the older girls put up a note in the locker room that said, “Tell them your phone number is 555-7734, or give the time-and-temperature number.” 555- wasn’t recognized as being a throwaway back then. (7734 is Hell upside down, and everybody knew the automated time number by heart.)
                I was giving out the time number for the umpteenth time one day, when the foreign exchange student stopped and said “You girls all have same phone number. Do you live in DORMITORY??”
                I was going to just? lie and say yes, but my friend said loudly, “Don’t tell him where our dormitory is! We need privacy to study!” At least we gave them the time of day. When they complained that they only got a recording, we’d tell them they must have mis-dialed. No way to write it down in a swimming pool….

                I am also “Foreign-American”, and creepy men are sadly ubiquitous. There is no culture without them. And to hear my daughters, all married women in their 30s, it’s not getting better anywhere.

        2. The other sage*

          There are men who go as far as to murder a woman who rejected them. As an example there was this case of a man in the underground train, who was rejected by a woman who said no to his advances, and he decided to kill her instead of dealing with said rejection.

          While most cases of men unable or unwilling to deal with rejection aren’t that extreme, men can be very scary, and we have no way to know beforehand who will be safe and who will be a danger to us.

      3. Seashell*

        I’m guessing from your screen name that you’re not someone to be taken seriously, but it’s not sexist to be realistic. 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime, and I am guessing the perpetrators are typically not other women. The majority of women who are murdered are murdered by men, usually a romantic partner or an ex.

        I’m a short woman with no particular physical power. I might have a chance in a physical fight with a woman, but most males (teenage or above) could overpower me and I go through life knowing that. My 6 foot tall husband doesn’t worry about walking by himself late at night in areas with street crime where there aren’t a lot of people around. I do, and that doesn’t mean I am sexist. It means I’m in touch with reality.

        1. Some Words*

          I can’t think of any woman I’ve been close to who hasn’t been assaulted, usually sexually. Not one.

          If this awareness makes women the sexists, so be it.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            And usually by a man they know.

            Both my sexual assaults and the stalking were by men I knew through school and mutual friends. I know a couple of women who were assaulted by strangers, but by far the majority were men they knew.

            I eventually just stopped being alone with most men outside of work situations, and at work cultivated a strong, “my boyfriend is great!” mode, even when I didn’t have a boyfriend. There were a few who were grandfathered in, and a few who I wanted to date, but otherwise, we hung out with his romantic partner or not at all.

            1. SimonTheGreyWarden*

              This. The decade of stalking I endured was from someone I knew and had been (I thought) close friends with.

          2. Laser99*

            Yes. I believe the one-in-three statistic is inaccurate, it’s more like 1 out of 2, if not 1 out of 1.

        2. Seashell*

          Then thanks for understanding that you, as a man, likely have little idea of what women have to deal with and worry about in order to keep themselves safe. It doesn’t make us sexist to try to stay alive and unharmed.

        3. not nice, don't care*

          Data-driven policing/justice would require a fkton of laws/limits on males, just going by crime statistics. No sexism required, just a clear look at facts.

      4. bamcheeks*

        Women’s “sexiest fear if men” is something overwhelming promoted and propagated BY men, because it serves privileged men very well. It wasted our time, restricts our opportunities, restricts our leisure, and limits our independence. It is not something we invented by ourselves for fun.

        1. Moira's Rose's Garden*

          I’m going to take it to the full logical conclusion & note that the dynamic of men’s violence towards women, how it’s not taken seriously, how responsibility is shoved back onto the women, how ineffective-to-worsening our entire system of jurisprudence is w/r/t it, is a feature, not a bug of Patriarchy. Threat of violence coupled with high rates of actual violence paired with the hell that is visited upon women who speak up about the whole thing are all very effective tools in maintaining a group that is “less than” in a society.

      5. Hyaline*

        Let’s not pretend for a second that predatory men are not using women’s worry about appearing sexist, racist, bigoted in any way, or just plain impolite to harm them.

        What’s the worst thing that happens if you act on fear that turns out to be misplaced? Some guy maybe gets his feelings hurt or there’s an embarrassing interaction. What’s the worst thing that happens if you don’t act on that fear and it turns out to be 100% accurate? Yeah.

        1. Irish Teacher.*

          And women just can not win. If we seem wary, don’t accept that lift, etc, we are “being sexist” or “paranoid;” after all, it’s “not all men;” why don’t we trust our coworkers?,” “he’s just a bit socially awkward and it’s mean to discriminate against him,” but if we do try to be friendly and ignore any warning signs, however small, and something does happen, then it’s “your own fault”. We “encouraged him” or “well, you’re obviously not taking enough care.”

          We’re simultaneously supposed to give men the benefit of the doubt, not judge them for being “socially awkward” and at the same time “be constantly on our guard” and “not do anything that might encourage them” (which includes just looking in any way what they consider attactive) and avoid anybody likely to be dangerous.

          1. Chirpy*

            This. I used to have an EXTREMELY creepy coworker. Like, he gave me and a lot of my female coworkers absolute DANGER DANGER DANGER vibes. I used to make sure he didn’t see which car I drove and there was zero indication he was interested in me in particular, and one of my coworkers was super nice to him in an attempt to not get shot if he did flip. Our (male) manager laughed off everyone’s concerns with “just give him a chance, he’s just an awkward kid” even after he escalated to the point of openly carrying a knife and our make coworkers started noticing him doing it.

            So yeah, eventually this guy got fired for making death threats against the manager, then came back months later to graffiti the building with more death threats. I fully think we dodged something worse. And all of it could have been avoided if the manager had listened to the receptionist, who noticed how creepy this guy was when he interviewed.

            2. Two-Faced Big-Haired Food Critic*

              “So yeah, eventually this guy got fired for making death threats against the manager…”

              Of course: it became a problem when it affected a man.

        2. jasmine*

          Racism and ableism absolutely have severe consequences. Misogyny isn’t the only form of bigotry that does. “Some guy maybe gets his feelings hurt or there’s an embarrassing interaction” is a pretty big understatement.

          Gut instinct is powerful, but it also perpetuates unconscious bias. Sometimes what danger looks like is influenced by the prejudice we’ve taken in from society. Ignoring that because it makes things hard or complicated, is alarming.

          1. Chirpy*

            It does complicate things. That was the excuse that let everyone ignore all the red flags with my super creepy coworker, because “he’s just a socially awkward Goth kid.” But there’s a difference between “wears a lot of studded black gear” and “vibes so creepy even other men noticed”. So unfortunately, you do have to be aware of your biases, but also, recognize that in practice, it might not matter. If the creepy guy hanging out next to my car in the parking lot at night is black, it’s going to look racist if I take precautions for a creepy guy hanging out next to my car at night, but as a woman I can’t take the chance.

            1. jasmine*

              “socially awkward goth” is very different from “black” or “autistic”

              And I’m not saying creepy men don’t make excuses using the latter categories. But there’s a range of choices between “we should unquestioningly trust our instincts, even if we perpetuate bigotry sometimes” and “we should never trust our instincts because what if we have unconscious bias”. By all means be cautious, but maybe reflect afterwards on what signals you were picking up on

          2. Allonge*

            Yes. I cannot speak for anyone else, but this book, to me, is worth recommending because it speaks in practical terms, not vague ‘crime is scary, they are coming to get you’.

            Also, it is being recommended to a person who is getting stalked now. It’s a specific situation that is actually happening, noticable to others and seems to be escalating. Yes, we can always use reminders on racism and sexism. But there is a much closer danger here.

          3. Deborah Vance, Vance Refrigeration*

            Sure there could be consequences. But there’s a huge difference between, say, calling 911 on a black man for simply existing, and just refusing a ride from a male coworker because he gives you the creeps.

      6. Nodramalama*

        When 1 in 3 women report a sexual assault or harassment by a man (and that’s women who REPORT), we really going to call that a sexist fear?

      7. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        @Mike

        This is really not the message I took from the book. I recall it as talking up learning to tune into the senses & signals that indicate genuine risk, and disambiguating that from fear of something unfamiliar but benign.

        If you know you can recognise the warning signs, you can relax around people who aren’t dangerous, and not lump in the genuinely friendly people with the ones intending harm.

        But yes, he’s in favour of allowing yourself to act on your fears. If you’re suppressing your spidey senses in order to be polite, you’re very vulnerable to manipulation.

        1. Great Frogs of Literature*

          All the worst situations I’ve ever been in were a direct result of suppressing my spidey senses to be polite. Some of them had the fun additional flavor of “don’t want to be/look racist.” I agree that gut instincts can amplify unconscious bias, and I still don’t really know how to balance that tension, but I can also say that there have been times when I, personally, would have been better off if I’d let myself trust the fact that a man was creeping me out, rather than allowing myself to remain stuck in a situation.

      8. Rex Libris*

        I’m going to go out on a limb here, and suggest that the hundreds of thousands of female sexual assault victims in the U.S. each year are predominately assaulted by men.

      9. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        You meant rational fear of men.

        It’s not “ist” to fear something you have a very solid reason for fearing. I fear grizzly bears in bear country. Not because I irrationally hate or fear bears, but because a bear can F me up or kill me. Those are facts and being Bear Aware is what prevents people from being killed by bears.

      10. BikeWalkBarb*

        What I told my two daughters growing up about trusting their instincts: If a guy gets mad at you because you’re being careful, they’re not someone you can trust. The “good guy” will understand why you’re cautious because they recognize how many not-good guys harass, stalk, rape, and kill, and they don’t want to be one of those guys.

        A while back a tweet went viral that asked women what they would do if there were no men in the world, or something like that. One of the top answers was more or less “walk alone at night feeling completely safe.”

        The racist systems aren’t something that will be undone overnight and I personally check my own reflexes for bias. I’ve already thought through how to deal with situations that I once might have responded to with a law enforcement reflex (from my upbringing in a middle-class white family in a very white town) that’s gone now.

        It isn’t a personal insult to avoid situations that feel unsafe, and it isn’t sexist to recognize that men perpetrate the vast, vast majority of violent assaults. #NotAllMen isn’t the least bit helpful in the actual circumstances LW’s wife is dealing with.

      11. M. Hunt*

        Some of the responses to my original comment certainly broke the commenting rules, but I can think of no conceivable reason why my comment itself should have been removed without explanation and, seemingly, in violation of rule 1.

        Rules for thee but not for me?

        1. New Jack Karyn*

          Was your original post under the name “Mike Hunt”?

          If you’re wondering why your opinions on gender relations are not being take seriously, start there.

          1. Mike Hunt*

            Removed. Dude, pick another user name. No one here uses their real full name as their commenting name anyway so it’s pretty clear this dedication to the bit is trolling. – Alison

    7. Cats Ate My Croissant*

      The thing with men like Creepy McStalkerpants is to them “female friend” = “woman I haven’t slept with yet”. Any interactions with a woman they’re attracted to get filtered through the creep lens. Cordial? “Playing hard to get.” Warm and friendly? “Must be up for more.” Shuts them down cold? “Ugh, ball-breaking bitch, probably a lesbian, not even that hot anyway.” It’s exhausting.

      1. Tall guy*

        I don’t mean to be alarmist. But I immediately thought of the 1996 case of a woman in Connecticut whose co-worker pressed and cajoled her before killing her in her driveway, while her husband was upstairs in their home. (Google Manchester CT Walmart co-worker killed). She was trying to be pleasant while trying to shut him down.

        1. DJ Abbott*

          Yes we don’t know how far this guy will go, so it’s best to take every precaution. Better too many precautions, than not enough!

      2. not nice, don't care*

        Raise hands, how many non-straight women have been threatened with being ‘converted’ straight by dudes they have turned down?

        1. Petty Betty*

          Even bisexual women in straight-passing relationships get it (like me).
          “Oh, you’re not *married*! I could take you right now and show you how much better I am than he is and you’d never want a woman again unless *I* think we want to spice things up. Dur hur hur”

          Like, m’dude, your finagling ain’t a magic wand and you aren’t a prize. Threatening r@pe and then self-serving threesomes after a barbarian’s conquer isn’t the wooing you think it is.

          1. DJ Abbott*

            It continues to amaze me how guys like that think they’re so irresistible. They’re usually overweight and smelly and badly groomed too.
            So delusional!

        2. Chirpy*

          And this is why I don’t tell random guys I’m asexual…because I know that’s a thing.

        3. Cats Ate My Croissant*

          “You only say you prefer women because you haven’t experienced my magical de-lesbianating dong!”

    8. Ms. Eleanous*

      CloudBird, I appreciate your valuable advice.

      I am hoping a commenter can recommend a similar book to Gift of Fear .. I say this because I couldn’t get past all the celebrity name-dropping; it felt like a mash up with People Magazine.
      Still, several people whose opinions I respect have said that they found it helpful.
      TLDR: YMMV

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Actually, nah, skip it, go straight to _Why Does He Do That_ by Lundy. Better all around.

          1. Ellis Bell*

            This is a brilliant book for people in relationships with abusers, but I don’t recall any strategies for stalking.

            1. Jules the 3rd*

              I checked back through it, and ch 10’s advice on how to get out works ok with stalking too. It’s more nuanced than _GoF_, because it deals with more situations like ‘shared custody with a stalker’, and it has less victim-blaming.

    9. jasmine*

      The main premise of The Gift of Fear is to trust your gut when you feel uncomfortable or unsafe, and many folks (mostly neurodivergent, disabled, or BIPOC) have pointed out how this can perpetuate unconscious bias on what “danger” looks like.

      Not to say that the book isn’t helpful, but it’s an important thing to keep in mind that the book doesn’t really touch on, from what I hear.

      1. Observer*

        Well, the book does touch on how to examine your gut reactions. I watched a couple of interviews where he talked about this and his point is not “unquestioningly follow your gut no matter what”. But “trust your gut even if it feels impolite or in some other way doesn’t fit the stereotype of how a woman is ~~supposed~~ to be have or is not ~~nice~~ enough.”

        And he talks about the importance of thinking through what’s setting you off. Because you need to filter the signal from the noise.

    10. Deborah Vance, Vance Refrigeration*

      Seconding the suggestion to read “The Gift of Fear”. Also, while this could be just another creep who has no respect for women, it’s also possible that he will escalate at some point. In fact, by showing up in at the restaurant, I suspect he already is. Support your wife in doing whatever she has to do to feel safe.

    12. Artemesia*

      The word ‘stalking’ needs to be used when describing this to HR. Describe the repeated attempts to date her although she has been clear she is married and not interested and then she notes ‘it is now beginning to feel like he is stalking me as he showed up where he knew I had a dinner with friends at a restaurant and sat near us. He knew I had mentioned going there last evening and there he was. I am not feeling safe. I need this to stop.’

  3. MsM*

    LW 4: They’re probably just looking for reassurance you won’t fall completely out of touch and forget them. Not that you’re obligated to satisfy them on that front, either, but planning some kind of casual fall catch-up might make them ease off the holiday party stuff.

    1. Anonys*

      I can understand that they want to stay in touch but i have to say i am surprised that all of OP’s coworkers are so enthusiastic about and seem to have even explicitly chosen, a company christmas party for which they have to shell out 60 bucks. Particularly considering these are supermarket workers (so likely making just above living wage in UK) and christmas is often a time with a lot of expenses and pressure to pay for gifts for various family, friends etc anyway.

      I personally wouldn’t pay that amount of money for a company holiday party. I like my coworkers and our company party but part of why i like it is the free food, drinks and DJ. A company event that’s an expense rather than a perk – no thanks

      1. bamcheeks*

        That’s about standard for a work Christmas party in the UK, especially if it includes a drink or two. You can get cheaper packages, but then you’re paying for drinks on top and it’ll probably work out as £60 anyway.

        LW, tell them you can’t plan that far in the future and don’t want to sign up for the full meal, but you’ll definitely, 100% drop in later for drinks after the meal. And then don’t. Nobody will care by then.

        1. londonedit*

          We don’t have to pay for our company Christmas party, but we do get a bit of money towards a team Christmas lunch, and it definitely doesn’t stretch far enough for an actual lunch for everyone, so we have to top it up ourselves. But we decide where to go for that, so we can make sure we’re within everyone’s budget.

          I definitely don’t think I’d pay £60 for a work do – but then I’ve never worked in an industry/culture where it’s the done thing to pay for your own Christmas party.

          1. allathian*

            Yeah. I work for the government in Finland, and while here our taxpayers are willing to accept that government employees benefit just as much from a few employee perks as private sector employees do, our system is split. The employer pays for the meal and entertainment and possibly one drink. Finns are used to alcohol being expensive and a large number of seasoned professionals never get past the idea that an open bar is an open license to drink yourself into a stupor.

            I don’t mind a drink or two in the company of my coworkers, but I’ve been to one Christmas party that was in a remote location and we couldn’t leave until the party was over. I couldn’t call my husband to come get me because he was at home with our son, and it was in the boondocks without a reliable taxi service. The worst part was definitely the trip home on a crowded bus. We got lucky that nobody threw up on the bus. There are some coworkers I no longer respect because of the way they behave when they’re drunk. I avoid them when I can and stick to strictly business with them when I can’t. There are things that I don’t want to know about my coworkers. So I’ve decided to limit my exposure by not attending company parties unless they’re held in a central location with good public transit. That’s so I can leave whenever I want.

            1. Myrin*

              Oh, I feel you on that last one!
              I lost all respect for a coworker I had previously had no particular feelings towards last year during our staff outing when he drank with abandon, vomited several times on the steps and in the flower pots of the restaurant we had dinner at, kept shouting and annoying people on the bus and generally made a nuisance of himself with boorish chav behaviour.
              Now that’s everything I ever think about when I so much as see him in the hallway and I’m happy I don’t really have to work with him at all because Nope.

        2. MsSolo (UK)*

          Yes, the money is probably to cover a meal and a drink – a Christmas do like this is more like a friend group meal that the business does the kindness of letting people out early for (often management will be covering the shifts) rather than a business event. It’s also not weird to have to organise it in august; you’d be surprised how competitive it gets by even mid-September for a double digit group to book somewhere in December!

            1. bamcheeks*

              It REALLY doesn’t, I’m afraid! Not for a Christmas package. Usually our team tries to keep it under £40, but that often doesn’t include a drink and you’ve got to get in pretty early to get it. £60 is on the high side for something that’s not super fancy, but if it’s all inclusive it’d be pretty good.

              1. ecnaseener*

                Wild. If a restaurant dinner was £60 per person with only one drink per person I’d be looking for gold leaf on the food. And I live in a very pricey area!

                1. Ellis Bell*

                  I’m in Liverpool where you can certainly do much better if you’re bargain hunting, but it’s not too difficult to hit that price if you’re just following a crowd to the latest trendy place. It’s not a particularly sensible option for retail wages, but enough people must be okay with it.

                2. UKDancer*

                  Restaurants hike their prices for Christmas and tend to do a set menu at a higher cost then for the office crowd. £60 is higher end but not by much.

        3. Earlk*

          Is it? I’m public sector in London and the most I’ve paid upfront is £30- yes I’ve paid for drinks on top of that on the night but £60 is a lot.

          1. bamcheeks*

            I think our last ohne was £25 per head but that was a light buffet and drinks started at about £8. I really wouldn’t be surprised by £60 for anything that was an actual meal + one or two drinks.

            1. Ellis Bell*

              If it’s three courses it would certainly explain the price, if it’s tacos or burgers or a buffet then I would consider it overpriced.

      3. Ellis Bell*

        It’s not a company Christmas party, though. It’s bottom down/peer organised, probably at a restaurant. It’s more like coworkers inviting you to join them for a meal where you split the bill than a host taking credit for it being ‘their’ party. This is very common in the UK.

        1. Liz*

          Yes, not sure if this is a cultural difference or industry thing (I’m a Brit who has worked exclusively retail or non-profit), but I’ve never been to a work Christmas do that was paid for by the company. It was always a pub dinner paid for by ourselves and organised by a colleague or department manager. Had one where the managers bought the first round of drinks, and another where everyone got 2 vouchers for drinks that could be redeemed at the bar.

          The only people I know who had paid- for, company-run Christmas parties are people who work in tech, engineering, or academia. I’m sure there are plenty of them about, but it’s a whole other world to me!

          1. Irish Teacher.*

            I’ve noticed on this site that people have very different version of what a workplace party is (or rather than workplace parties differ very much from one workplace to another). In some workplaces, they seem to be more…part of work? Like the company pays for them and you are almost expected to attend and maybe there are even things like speeches or stuff from some of the bosses.

            Whereas this seems to be more the type when a group of people who work together decide to go out to celebrate a couple of times a year.

            I will say £60 does seem a fair bit for a retail Christmas party. As a teacher, I usually pay between €20 and €50, depending on where we decide to go and when I worked retail…well, the Christmas party was a company one and when we did our own things like when somebody was leaving, we just went to the pub and paid for whatever drinks we had. £60 does seem a lot to ask for in an industry where a lot of people are college students, etc, but…it doesn’t sound outrageous either and it probably depends on where they are and what they are getting for it. We generally just pay for the meal and then buy drinks ourselves. If this is covering a few drinks per person, I guess it makes sense.

            1. Ellis Bell*

              I’ve noticed you have a lot more “retired” people working in retail these days, or people who are doing it as a nice income supplement. In my day we were broke students or it was your main or only job. Back then, a few rounds at the pub would have been more than enough of a “Christmas party”. If you’re hungry, you can always get a kebab on the way home! If your previous/other working life involves nice meals with colleagues you may not realise less is more. TBF, you can always opt out of the meal and offer to meet for a pre or post meal drink.

              1. bamcheeks*

                See, in my experience it’s the other way around— it’s the people who are younger and in lower-paid jobs but are used to dropping £60 on a night out who are pushing for the expensive all-inclusive venue, and the older people who are baulking at paying more than £30 because they know they’ll have one drink then go home, and if they WERE going to spend £60 on night out it wouldn’t be with work people.

                1. doreen*

                  Who wants the expensive parties can be surprising. I worked for a state government , which paid for no parties but did give every office a “picnic day” and you could tell which picnics were organized by who. The lower-paid support staff would plan catered “picnics” ( because when the caterer provides servers, it’s not really a picnic) at parks that were inaccessible by public transportation while the professional staff would plan to grill hot dogs and hamburgers at the closest park to the office. Which was really surprising because for the most part, the support staff didn’t have cars and would have to charter a bus while professional staff mostly did own cars. But then I realized that might be part of the difference – it’s very expensive to have a car here and not having a car probably makes it more affordable to spend $50 plus on a picnic once a year.

                2. Adrienne*

                  “Who wants the expensive parties can be surprising.”

                  That’s interesting. To me it feels deeply intuitive that low paid support staff would want to feel taken care of for once.

                3. doreen*

                  @ Adrienne , I could understand that they want to be taken care of for once – but if that’s what it was , I’m surprised they chose to spend $50 of their own money on a picnic with co-workers rather than with their family and friends. I might not have been clear enough – my employer didn’t pay for anything, just allowed us a day to have a picnic instead of working. So if they planned a $50 picnic , it would cost them $50 to attend.

            2. londonedit*

              Our company pays for the big company-wide do, and they would prefer it if as many people attended as possible, but it’s not obligatory and it’s very much presented as a ‘come and celebrate with us all’ thing. There aren’t big speeches or awards or anything like that, it’s just drinks and canapes and a chance to chat to colleagues, and you can do some dancing if you like that sort of thing.

              We also do smaller team lunches/pub trips where the company contributes a small amount and then we top it up to whatever it costs – most restaurants in London will do a Christmas set menu for maybe £30 or £40 a head, so we usually do one of those, and my boss will either buy the wine or buy the first round of drinks, and then we all pay for whatever other drinks we want.

              1. Irish Teacher.*

                We should have it as a discussion some time on one of the work threads, how people’s workplaces celebrate.

            3. Anonys*

              It does sound like 60 pounds is a significant financial burden on these employees, not just based on typical salaries for supermarket workers (easily googlable for big UK chains) but also based on the following statement from OP:
              “That’s not a small sum to me, even if they have set up an unofficial pay-in-3 system”
              So, if you have a christmas party where (some) people are making payment in three rates in order to afford it, I just think it’s too much. I mean if that’s how people genuinely want to spend their money, and they want to prioritize or even save for the christmas party, totally fine. But if there is any pressure to attend (even if its employee organized and the pressure is only from employees), as there seems to be here, that’s not cool and I would guess there are in fact others who dread the party (or at least the price).

              1. bamcheeks*

                It is, but it’s more in the “everyone can spend £60 on my birthday dinner / hennight, right?” category rather than the “clueless management has no idea how little their staff earn” category.

            4. Humble Schoolmarm*

              Ours is a pretty voluntary house party with snacks and limited beverages. We pay 40$ in social committee dues to cover the December and June parties as well as treats and gifts for people who are leaving. At previous places, we did have a restaurant meal, but it was paid for by the money the school saved getting the teachers to supervise lunches instead of hiring someone. That one annoyed me as I didn’t think dinner was adequate compensation for giving up a lunch period a week.

      5. fhqwhgads*

        Pay 60 pounds 3 months after you’ve left to go to an unofficial leaving do is wackadoo, regardless of good intentions. Especially when it’s a shindig you haven’t gone to in years anyway. I’m completely baffled by these coworkers. Even if it were a cover for “don’t forget to keep in touch” it’s super clunky weird one.

    2. Awkwardness*

      I also think this is more about staying in touch than the Christmas party. Do not put too much weight on it!

    3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Strong agree (as a Brit with retail experience).

      I don’t think the coworkers actually mean “come to the Christmas Do” as much as they mean “we still want to see you after you leave”. So LW may have more luck by casually dropping into conversation that they live nearby and expect to visit the shop frequently for their favourite snack unavailable elsewhere, or perhaps suggesting a local vegan restaurant they want to try and does anyone else fancy it.

      There’s some cultural stuff about a British Christmas Do that is kind of difficult to explain and will be feeding into LW’s dilemma, but the core answer is the same: you don’t have to commit or even go, but if you express enthusiasm for other socialising with work friends after leaving they will likely back off.

    4. Falling Diphthong*

      I can picture a particularly fervent Christmas partier hitting on “OP should come to the Christmas party!!!” and the others nodding along with “Ah, this is how we shall express our fondness for OP as they depart, by reminding them to come to the Christmas party.”

      Possibly somewhere in there “I have good feelings about OP re Christmas party” turned into “… which must be because they told me how much they love it.”

      1. londonedit*

        Yeah, if one or more people are really into the Christmas party I can imagine them thinking ‘Oh, but OP will miss out on the Christmas party! We should make sure they know they’re still more than welcome to come!!’

  4. Shaken still*

    re #1

    I once had a (female) manager who was becoming way too friendly and sexually aggressive towards me (male).

    The day after I spoke to HR, she came to me and told me that her husband was not happy about the situation and I needed to be aware he had a gun.

    HR did not back me up on this apart from moving me to a new manager with a similar role.

    This was in the 90s and that kind of thing wasn’t yet taken seriously. I’m retired now and still get the chills about it.

    2. Despachito*

      That’s awful, I am sorry you had to go through this.

      I wonder what SHE told the HR and her husband. I’d bet she turned it around and said OP was the one making the inappropriate suggestions (because I cannot imagine her husband threatening OP because SHE was harassing OP, or she perhaps invented the husband’s comment).

      1. pocket sized polly*

        Yeah, I’m trying to imagine the husband being like “you were aggressively ‘flirting’ with your male coworker who turned you down and then reported you to HR and now you’re mad about it and you expect me to be mad at him too?????”

        And sure maybe in like, Crazy-Ville where all the residents are crazy.

    4. Ellis Bell*

      The gun part is chilling. When they moved you were you even isolated from daily contact with her? I don’t see how you can recover from something like that when you still see someone frequently.

    7. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      I’m not surprised you’re still shaken – that’s horrific.

      My occurrence with people in authority not believing me was in the 90s too and it’s sickening that even after all this time the victims are NOT treated well at all.

      Virtual hugs to you and anyone else who needs them.

    8. donut_eater*

      Not to say it wasn’t inappropriate of her to say that, but one thing I’ve learned over many decades of dealing with people with guns is that those who say things like “I have a gun at home” are by far the least likely to use it on you. This is amplified even more when they’re saying it on someone else’s behalf. You were never in danger. She still shouldn’t have said that though.

      1. MMR*

        This is an egregious take. You have no idea if he was in danger or not.

        Are you saying you have had other people who didn’t tell you about their guns in advance try to shoot you? Because if not, even in your own experience, people who explicitly threatened you were not “the least likely” to use a gun on you; you just haven’t been shot at.

        1. donut_eater*

          > Are you saying you have had other people who didn’t tell you about their guns in advance try to shoot you?

          Yes, on more than one occasion.

          And I’ve never investigated a shooting homicide in which someone was told in advance they were going to be shot (with the exception of in the heat of the moment when someone is brandishing their gun and then uses it). But someone saying “my husband has a gun” is just saying that to scare you. I would wager he didn’t have a gun at all.

          People who are actually going to do something do it. People who want to scare someone run their mouths off.

          1. Venus*

            > People who are actually going to do something do it. People who want to scare someone run their mouths off.

            On average, yes, but there are always exceptions.

            1. donut_eater*

              I can agree to that.

              I’d also say this mid-level manager of accounts receivable or whatever was not an exception. I’d bet my pension on it.

              But what do I know. I’ve only been dealing with real murderers for the last three decades.

              1. New Jack Karyn*

                You’re make-believe betting your pension; other people are betting their lives.

                1. donut_eater*

                  No; I’m betting my life that I know what I’m doing every day I go to work.

                  You’re taking a break from doing some spreadsheets to pretend you know what you’re talking about based on something you probably heard on a Ted talk.

          2. not nice, don't care*

            You need to get out more. Your N=1 does not reflect everyone’s reality. I say that as a gun violence and stalking survivor.

            1. donut_eater*

              This is not a n=1 situation. This is 3 decades’ worth of n.

              *Your* situation is n=1.

          3. Firebird*

            So that means that I’m safe from my ex who told me (out of the blue) that he has five guns now. This is not sarcasm. He really said it in a text. Granted, it seemed kind of stupid to put it in a text.

            1. donut_eater*

              Has he shot you?

              You’re correct that he was stupid to put it into a text. Take that to the police and show it to them. They’ll call him in for a friendly (non-custodial) conversation about it, and he will pee his pants. I know the type, and I’ve seen and done it hundreds of times.

      2. Artemesia*

        The country is full of people who spend a lot of time fantasizing about situations in which they can use their guns to kill people. Actually threatening this makes it MORE likely not less.

        1. littlehope*

          I mean, I think we can probably agree that it’s broadly true both that a) people who make big threats often don’t follow through with them and b) it’s reasonable to be afraid of someone who makes a point of telling you that they have the means to hurt you. Right?

  5. Lily*

    LW#2 – just wanted to send my sympathies. I recently escaped a workplace where everything was all about FEELINGS all the time.
    Eg
    Manager: We’re going to have a restructure – how do you feel about that?
    Me: Yes, I heard at the team meeting this morning – I look forward to hearing more about the new arrangements.
    Manager: And how are you feeling about it?
    Me: Well there’s not a lot of detail at this stage, but I’m sure it will be fine.
    Manager: But how are you feeeeeeeeling about it?
    Me: I’m fine.
    Manager: Ok, well there’s a special meeting at 1pm for anyone in the team who needs to talk about their feeelings about this.
    Me: Ok, can we move on now? I have the details from last week’s review ready to discuss?
    Manager: Well, as long as you’re feeling ok.

    UGH. Especially as I did NOT have a good relationship with this supervisor and would not trust her to manage anything appropriately if I did tell her anything. But there was nothing to tell. That job constantly made me feel like a weird unemotional robot lady.

    1. UKDancer*

      I had a colleague like that, always wanting to talk about feelings and “share” about things that I had no strong feelings about. The more she did it the more I wanted to retreat like a hedgehog. So I know exactly what you mean.

    2. allathian*

      Ugh, I could feel my shoulders hunching up past my ears when I read that. I mean, it’s great if people feel safe enough to discuss their genuine feelings, even so-called negative ones like anger (which can spur you to take action to change your circumstances) and disappointment (which can spur you to take action to ensure that you’re successful the next time when it’s caused by something you have some control over) in the workplace without a fear of reprisals. It’s something else to require people to emote at you when they either don’t feel safe enough to show their genuine feelings, or don’t have any particular feelings about the situation being discussed.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Totally. I had a coworker at my most recent ExJob who was a manipulative liar and in meetings she would always say that if we had any problems or issues (aka “feelings”) we could absolutely bring them up to discuss with them, she wouldn’t be upset or anything. But of course we knew that if we had said anything she would 100% use that information against us. My boss and I never volunteered anything because we didn’t trust her at all. I feel like people who need to *say* that it’s okay to talk about your feelings are so often the people with whom it’s actually not okay to talk about your feelings.

    3. MsM*

      I’d be so tempted to go “you seem to have a lot of feelings about me having feelings about this – want to share?” But I’d be afraid they might.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This is when it’s good to be an engineer: “My feelings are irrelevant. I’ve learned that making decisions based on my feelings usually leads to bad results, so I disregard my feelings and only rely on objective facts.”

    5. learnedthehardway*

      I would take that kind of thing as a “Do you feel the meeting was productive and are you comfortable with the plan going forward?” question, rather than a “What are your deep emotional responses to this” kind of inquiry.

      I think it would be fine to say “I was happy with X and Y, but Z is giving me concerns about our ability to deliver on time.”

  6. Mrdoubt*

    LE3 it’s very common for the mailboxes of people leaving, particularly if they are high ranking, have a lot of projects on the go etc. to be retained, usually for some defined period of time and with an auto-reply letting people know they need to email Mr Smith rather than Ms Johnson.

    If people need access in order to reply to new emails it is possible set up an auto-forward where all new emails go to someone’s mailbox, though if emails need to go to many different people it may not be feasible. In these cases it should be fairly simple to give people access after your boss has retired to see any new emails.

    Alternatively if the only reason you need this access historical email then you/IT could explore dumping all emails to a file that can be imported back into a mail client like outlook when desired.

    1. Brain the Brian*

      I think it may also be helpful for LW3 to remember that in a very short window of time, their old manager will no longer be at the company, and when that happens, the LW will have full control over the situation — whatever their then-retired manager might think otherwise. If the LW needs to quietly ask IT to wait a few weeks to act on that ticket to make their manager’s transition into retirement smooth from a personal standpoint, I say do that. (Just make sure you and your grandboss are in agreement that the minute your
      old manager walks out the door on the last day, IT is going to transfer visibility into her old email account to you, LW.) This is one case where handling things discreetly can really keep things calm for everyone and have everyone leave the situation with a good taste in their mouth.

      1. Ellis Bell*

        Yeah, that’s probably also the reason behind the bosses overreactions and unprofessionalism. On some level she’s stopped caring about her reputation and there’s no tether keeping her civil when she’s upset.

    2. londonedit*

      Definitely – where I work we do it with everyone. The rule is that you tidy up your inbox before you leave, and then for a certain period of time (I think it’s three months) someone else (either your replacement or your boss if there’s a gap) will have access to your inbox. You also set up an OOO to say you’ve left the company and who to email instead.

      1. Ashley*

        Honestly in many roles long term access is terrific. Going back to find some odd approval or design from 5 or 10 years ago doesn’t come up all the time but being able to search through the email of a predecessor can be extremely helpful.

    3. Jerry*

      Thank you for the clarification. The case №4 is mine. I was pretty sure that that’s how things are generally being done, but the severe reaction of my boss make me wonder if I hugely overstepped and don’t understand a thing about common courtesy and office culture.

      1. Somehow I Manage*

        It sounds like your manager is having feelings about retiring and perhaps wasn’t ready to cross all the Ts and dot all the Is just yet. What was suggested was their idea and they had ample opportunity to clarify timing, etc. But they didn’t. They just overreacted when you did what you were asked to do.

        Just chalk it up to someone feeling feelings and then proceed the same way upon the retirement. I don’t think you owe any sort of apology, but maybe smoothing things over would make life better in the remaining months they’re there.

        And while I don’t know your boss or your IT department, it might be worth mentioning this to someone above the boss or at the top of IT, just to ensure that the email does actually get moved over immediately after the retirement takes place. You don’t want to have a situation in which somehow you’re unable to access it because someone tries to protect it.

        1. Eucerin*

          Seconding this for Jerry. I don’t know what the timeline is for when you sent the letter so maybe your boss already retired. But given their reaction, it definitely couldn’t hurt to have IT and a higher-level boss be in the know about this situation, just to cover everyone’s butts.

      2. Antilles*

        There’s nothing you’re missing here. This isn’t really about you, it’s all about your boss. The email suddenly making your boss’ massive change in life feel real in a way it hadn’t before. Even though your boss already knew she was retiring, that little email to IT suddenly triggered a feeling of “holy crap this is actually happening” and there being a real deadline and end point.
        Basically the retirement equivalent of the stereotypical sitcom guy who freaks out over some trivial part of wedding planning, then later in the episode he has a quiet discussion and realizes that it’s really just him freaking out over his life being about to change dramatically.

    4. allathian*

      At my employer, the user account of a person who has quit (regardless of the reason) is deleted 3 months after they leave. This includes things like their OneDrive work folders and their email accounts. We have strict letter secrecy laws that, as surprising as it might be to some, also apply to email communications on company systems when those email accounts have been assigned to an individual (firstname.lastname@company.com or variants thereof). It’s only in extreme cases that an employer can check individual email accounts, such as in cases of suspected harassment by email. This is generally only done to ensure that someone hasn’t edited the contents of an email they received from another employee to get them in trouble.

      The strict rules don’t apply to ticketing systems with an email front end or role-based emails. That’s why we have strict CYA rules to use our role-based ticketing system/email for business transactions.

      I was also a bit astonished recently to learn that we can keep a folder marked Personal on our company computers and their contents will never be read under any circumstances. They will be deleted and trashed if we leave, but they won’t be read. Our CIO said so in an internal blog post.

    5. learnedthehardway*

      The manager is being overly emotional about the situation – it obviously touched a nerve. People find it super difficult to retire and let go of what is an enormous part of their identity. However, while I think the OP probably should have followed up with her before sending the email to IT, it’s not a huge faux pas.

      OP – you might want to smooth things over with a conversation acknowledging that you moved a little fast, but that you wanted to ensure you were following your manager’s directions. Some side notes about hoping she’ll be a mentor in future would probably be a good idea as well – a) because you’ll likely want her to be a reference in future, so having her contact information is a good idea (and could be a real problem if you can’t get ahold of her), b) because she may very well be a good mentor to have for the next 3-5 years, as you progress your career, and c) because it will make her feel valued – there’s something to be said for that.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      Yeah I don’t think there was any question of the technical specifics or WHY it ought to happen. I’d wager IT is used to this with retirements and the exact wording of the email didn’t matter much.
      The entirety of the problem is the way the boss reacted after the fact.

  7. Anna*

    This is creepy guy at work day. Your wife definitely needs to report this and document. She needs to be very careful not to disclose her personal plans and only talk to this creeper about work issues. No banter.

    1. Testing*

      Yup, this colleague is not a friend to her and it’s better not to think of him as such or call him that. Not that any of this is her fault or her responsibility, but the less information and communication there is, the better.

    2. NeonFireworks*

      I reported a thing like this to my workplace and they not only took it very seriously but (with my consent) they brought in the police to help! Never saw Mr Creepytrousers again – he disappeared from work and last I heard was receiving some intensive psychiatric care.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        That is great to hear they took it seriously. Things like this are indicative of OTHER things, some of which require intervention

      1. Analyst*

        mute it, but she may need the escalating messages that are likely to continue to bring to HR. But absolutely stop answering

        1. duinath*

          I second this.

          This type of …person (I fully don’t know what else to call him at this point) tends to feed off any response from their victim, so even saying “leave me alone” is in their minds a reason to keep trying. She talked to me! So it’s working. But their messages can be illuminating, and they can also be useful as evidence.

          If at all possible, I would suggest she stop replying entirely, stop reading the messages, and have LW read them instead, or a friend if LW finds it difficult. That way they can act on information if necessary (beyond talking to HR, which should be your first step, and should be done ASAP) without giving her the emotional reaction he’s trying to get out of her.

    4. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      This is part of the issue, wife thinks they can still be friends. They are not friends. So wife needs to treat him like a not friend. Work talk only. No asking recommendations, not texts, no emails, nothing that is not directly work related. Including where he might overhear. That means no telling other coworkers your out of work plans, or anything personal. Calm professional only.

      While also showing HR she tried to make it clear his attentions were unwanted. He has entered stalker territory. All precautions are necessary. OP, don’t let HR talk her out of getting a restraining order if she feels it is necessary if the behavior continues.

  8. Myrin*

    #3, maybe I’m reading something in your letter that isn’t there but you sound very intimidated by and shy about this whole thing, so I want to say very strongly: it doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong at all!

    The way you describe your initial talk about the whole “contacting IT” situation, I’m not sure there would’ve been much room for misunderstanding on your part – you even discussed the terms you should use! By all means, use apologetic wording – although I wouldn’t go too apologetic; I like Alison’s suggestion in brackets – to make this smoother for her but please hear me when I say that your boss sounds wildly unreasonable about this whole thing. (And lest people think I’m entirely unsympathetic: I understand that her retirement is probably really emotional for her, especially with how OP describes her social entanglement with work, but she’s still behaving towards OP in a manner that is not okay.)

  9. Time for Tea*

    LW4 (and to explain for the US contingent here) it’s really normal in the UK for work Christmas parties to be locked in at this time of year as venues get booked up otherwise and you end up scrambling for somewhere. The venue will want a decent deposit from the group so the booking is likely to involve a payment now, and also meal choices decided on. And you’re absolutely right, the vegetarian choice is always awful on the menus at Christmas for some reason even from places that are fine the rest of the year.

    I would just repeat that you cannot commit to anything later on in the year as with all the changes in your life you don’t know what you will have on in December (this sounds true from your letter!), perhaps adding that you will miss them and you might be able to drop in for a drink, not the meal. Stress the might. Then you can see how you feel once you leave and are in to your new responsibilities. As a non drinking veggie I do feel your pain on the amount of fun to be had at Christmas parties…

    1. londonedit*

      Yep, we’ve just had our official invitations to the work Christmas do. And all my local pubs with function rooms have been advertising Christmas parties for a good few weeks now, because they book up so quickly for December!

      I think people are probably just chatting about the Christmas party now because it’s just been announced/organised – that chatter will die down soon enough. Just say ‘Oh, I’m not sure what I’m doing in December but I’ll see if I can make it!’ and leave it at that. People will forget about it until nearer the time, and then you can always say ‘No, turns out I’m double-booked that day – but we should meet up for a drink sometime!’

    2. bamcheeks*

      you might be able to drop in for a drink, not the meal. Stress the might

      Ha, I’ve just given exactly the same advice except WITHOUT “stress the might”. Say you’ll definitely drop in for a drink, 100%, but then don’t and nobody will care by then.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      Oh, for a Thanksgiving or something to act as a breakwater between August and Christmas. I agree, though, people are trying to get the bookings sorted and possibly feel like they at least want to make OP feel like they would get a leaving do/be welcome. It’s definitely better to focus on the non-booking portion of the evening if possible; “if I’m in town I’ll meet up with you all for a drink”. Tread the line between ‘don’t count on me’ and ‘Its a nice idea’.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Halloween does it a bit in Ireland. Not entirely, but the floodwaters open completely on the 1st of November when the shops take down all the Halloween decorations and instantly replace them with Christmas ones and the ads for Christmas on TV usually now begin the 1st of November. We usually plan our Christmas party at work around that time too, after we come back from the mid-term break.

        It’s only partial though. Some shops have so much Christmas stuff in from early September that the Halloween stuff gets shoved into a corner.

    4. NeonFireworks*

      Yes, last year’s Christmas party in my unit was an all-day do in a nice hall I’d never been inside before. Whole box of props and costumes for the photo booth, open bar, fully catered, custom two-hour long pub quiz game!

    5. doreen*

      It’s not unusual for my part of the US either – if you wait any longer to plan a large party you might not be able to get the sort of venue you want when you want it. If it’s ten people and you can just make a reservation at a restaurant and order from the menu , you can wait longer to make final plans , but if you are going to need the private room or a catering venue and a fixed price , it might already be too late for December.

    6. Caramel & Cheddar*

      This. I remember the first time I ever went to England in the fall, I was shocked by all the signs in restaurant windows advertising for Christmas bookings. It was September!

    7. Jeanine*

      Wow that’s insane that you have to pay to go to a work party. As for us, my husband’s work just had a summer in the park kinda thing which his co workers kept badgering him to attend. He doesn’t want to and neither do I (it was ok to invite family). Several reasons: He doesn’t want to see them on a weekend day, he’s sick of them by then LOL. Also I use a wheelchair part time and the place wasn’t accessible. Thirdly …COVID! Why would we want to hang around all these people who we know for a fact come to work sick and cough all over everything, plus several co workers just GOT covid. No thanks.

      1. londonedit*

        Who pays is very much company/industry/location/team dependent here in the UK. As I said above, my company pays for a big Christmas do for the whole company, but then each team usually goes out for a low-key Christmas lunch/pub trip, which is subsidised but we do have to top it up out of our own pockets. That’s fine, though, because we get to choose where we go, and most places have set Christmas menus where it’s, say, £35 or £39 a head for three courses. My boss pays for the wine, the whole thing costs us maybe £25 each, plus any other drinks we want to buy.

        I think paying for a work do is much more common in the public sector, because of the whole ‘can’t use taxpayers’ money for entertainment’ thing. In the private sector I think most companies will put on a free Christmas party for their staff.

      2. MsSolo (UK)*

        With stuff like this, it’s more like going to a happy hour after work, rather than a Company Party (except it requires a lot more forward planning). It’s a Christmas party where the thing people have in common is their employer, just as someone’s walking group or baby sensory or book club might organise a Christmas party.

      3. Ellis Bell*

        To be fair, when it’s worker-organised and worker-paid for, there’s usually zero pressure to attend. It tends to be four good work colleagues who feel like going out for a slap up dinner on mad Friday (the last Friday before Christmas Eve). In the interests of being inclusive and in the spirit of the season, they are willing to organise a booking for the whole team to anyone really wanting to go. Anyone thinking they can’t afford a restaurant before Christmas would either see them for a few cheap beers in the pub afterwards, or just not go. OPs team are being super weird about it, unless they are simply emphasising that she’s welcome in spite of leaving.

        1. UKDancer*

          Yes I’ve never worked anywhere with a paid for meal or party. it’s usually someone volunteers and organises it, books the table and collects deposits from anyone interested. People go or not.

    8. LCH*

      i don’t really think it’s weird for the planning to have started, but having to pay to attend a company holiday party is weird to me. never worked anywhere that has had that model. i’d rather not have the party.

    9. Beany*

      Having seen Love, Actually, I’m confident you can get a venue in a London art gallery with less than three weeks’ notice. Just remember to bring lots of Santa hats to cover up the ruder exhibits.

    10. fhqwhgads*

      It’s not weird that the party is locked in now. It’s weird that they want OP to come to it, when they know she’s leaving 3 months before it, and historically doesn’t go to it anyway.

  10. Cinn*

    LW1: “She’s also a bit concerned that this can be turned back on her because she did not immediately shut down his creepy comments but would generally just ignore them at first.”

    The training videos at my workplace relating to sexual harassment actually includes this, the lady in the example says she’s not sure if she even can report it since she feels like she let it happen by not being firm enough in the beginning. She can, and so can your wife. As Alison said it’s an entirely normal reaction to manage this guys feelings because so often it has to be for safety reasons.

    If they’re a halfway decent HR they’d understand that she wanted to handle it politely whilst maintaining professional relationships etc, but now it’s escalated where she needs (& wants) help to deal with this.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      It’s such a common human reaction, one other people in large part appreciate you having for most contexts: “Huh, colleague did a weird thing. I shall ignore it and figure it was a one-off.”

      Many people do absorb the soft no, recognize that type of joke doesn’t land with this specific audience, etc, and adjust going forward.

    2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      She handled it right – to a point. She said hey we are just friends. So there is documentation she tried to shut it down.

      But now its time to do two things 1- go to HR and show them the whole interaction. So HR can see she tried to deal with it one on one; 2 – accept the guy is not a friend and act accordingly.

    3. Lurker*

      Yes, and creepsters rely on the targets of their creep not wanting to be rude and use that to their advantage. Then if the target is rude, they try to twist it like “Oh, you’re sensitive” or “I was just kidding.” F that — tell your wife not to fall for that. The creep will try to manipulate her/her feelings.

      1. Boof*

        Indeed, there’s this vague idea (probably mostly pushed by abusers and enablers) that consent is some sort of permanent and immutable thing that only gets broader, never gets revoked, no matter what. Like no, consent to anything can be withdrawn especially if it gets abused. And people who go about demand trust probably don’t deserve it (not a problem here but another abusive tactic is to get mad about “lack of trust” – like of course not trust is earned “promises kept” not something folks are entitled to especially someone you don’t know). So it makes total sense to be friendly and open until someone shows that that’s not leading anywhere beneficial.

        1. Boof*

          *I should really say consent can be withdrawn simply because it is, there doesn’t have to be abuse or an ironclad, powerpoint laid out, court approved “Reason”, “no” is enough.

          1. Cinn*

            Everything you’ve said is totally correct, but has reminded me of a great video explaining how simple consent is via the medium of asking if someone wants a cup of tea. I think it was originally put out by Thames Valley Police, and you can find it if you search YouTube for “tea and consent”.

            I’d post a link, but not sure what the etiquette on that is here.

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          Yeah, that kind of thing is clearly designed to put her in her place, like you must be CRAZY to think I’d be interested in YOU, even if he didn’t say it straight out. Twenty bucks says the next thing out of his mouth when he is confronted about his stalking behavior is a denial that he even wanted to be more than friends coupled with an insult about her weight/age/looks/all of the above.

    4. Kristi T*

      I wonder if it might be helpful to try to reframe “let it happen / didn’t shut it down at first” as “initially tried gentle de-escalation tactics”. It’s not usually seen as a bad thing to give a person a chance to realize that they are behaving badly and save face.

      The whole narrative around turning things back on women if they don’t shut things down immediately yet refusing to listen if nothing really happened yet is a total catch 22. There is no right response.

      3. Cinn*

        Oh, yes, that’s a great way to phrase it! I didn’t mean to suggest she’d done anything wrong, so sorry if my post came off that way.

  11. Jill Swinburne*

    Ugh, #2. I’m glad not to have run into this – my feelings are for me to process in private, thanks.

    I just had a really good call today actually from an employer who hired someone else. I’d sent a follow up email because it was nearly two weeks post-interview, and she actually phoned to apologise for the radio silence and update me that I had, in fact, not been successful. But she gave me some helpful constructive feedback, reassured me that I’d been a great candidate but the person who got the role already had a bunch of role-specific experience, she was sure I’d be an asset to somebody, and to definitely feel free to apply to future roles at the org. I really appreciated the effort she went to to help me, and it was very professional and business-like. I get the impression she’d be a great manager, and it was almost worth missing out just to be treated so well.

  12. Anglonemi*

    “Cheerful Wall” is perfect and I am stealing it for training staff on professional boundaries. I am also stealing it to embroider as a sampler in the hope it helps me modify my standard reply of “I’m fine” to sound less like someone is going to be injured. (ASD vs the Tone Police – the battle continues, film at 11)

    1. Not An Expert*

      I loved this too – as a freelancer in quite an emotionally sensitive industry, I feel the need to use this approach quite a lot, and now I have a term for it!

    2. NeonFireworks*

      Two or three workplaces ago, I had a colleague who was going out of her way to surreptitiously make things difficult for me and then try and catch me upset by it. She never did. Her behaviour was one of the reasons I opted to move along, but in the meantime, my Cheerful Wall demeanour absolutely infuriated her (my revenge was that I secretly began enjoying it a wee bit).

      1. allathian*

        I mean the Cheerful Wall demeanor is the only thing that has a chance of working. Especially with people like your former coworker who are infuriated because you refuse to engage and give them the reaction they want.

        I’ve been in a similar situation before and the description is so apt. I understood the phenomenon without having a name for it.

    3. Isabel Archer*

      Technical question: Is it ever ok to store my Gray Rock on top of my Cheerful Wall?

  13. Irish Teacher.*

    LW4, it is very likely they will have pretty much lost interest in this by the time the party comes around. My guess is that this is largely an indication that they like you and want to remain friends.

    I think you can just keep it vague. “Thanks for the invite. I’ll let you know when I’ve a better idea of what’s going on in December,” and then just move on with the conversation in a way that doesn’t sound like you are shutting things down, like “and you must let me know what happens with *really annoying customer*” or “and I want to hear all about your little girl’s first day at school/your sister’s wedding/whatever.”

    LW2, I suspect this is about the interviewer’s own feelings. I am guessing he or she feels guilty about rejecting people and is trying to make themself feel better.

  14. Ruthless Bunny*

    I love being a scrum master. I don’t manage anyone. I facilitate scheduled meetings, work in a PMO system, doodle around with reports. And I work at home!

    I’m at the back end of my career. I have over 30 years of being a go-getter. Now I know pretty much how my days play out. We moved up to the lake and every so often I go to the office.

    1. BigBaDaBoom*

      That’s interesting to me. In my org I am a BA on a scrum and my SMs on various scrums have done so much wrangling and multitasking that when my boss has floated that as a career path to me I can only say “BIG NOPE” lol

  15. Don't You Call Me Lady*

    I have to admit, I don’t understand #3. Why did the boss want to keep an email address alive that she won’t be using and would never see or have access to?

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Because she’s been there 24 years and has her hands in a lot of projects and people will continue to send emails to it long after they have been told to update their contact information.

      Additionally, if she has kept emails organized into folder, there is a lot of information in there that present employees will need. It’s not about her, it’s about the information that’s in there. Keeping email addresses alive after someone leaves is not an unusual thing in most companies, although it’s common to set up an autoresponder that says something like “Person X has retired. For inquiries about Project A, please contact Person A. For inquiries about Project B, please contact Person B.”

      1. Don't You Call Me Lady*

        “Keeping email addresses alive after someone leaves is not an unusual thing in most companies,”

        Yes, that was kind of my point – it’s very common which is why I don’t understand the concern. What did the boss think was going to happen, that all the information would just go into a black hole?

        1. londonedit*

          I think it’s most likely because of Alison’s second suggestion – it’s not the email that’s the issue, it’s the fact that this has for whatever reason triggered an ‘Oh my goodness I haven’t even left the building yet and already they’re taking over and trying to shut down my access’ reaction from the boss. I think the ‘I’m not dead, I should be handling this’ part of the boss’s comments points very much towards the fact that she’s suddenly having all these feelings about her retirement suddenly becoming real, and she’s feeling like the OP is trying to push her out of the way. She feels like it’s still very much *her* job, and she should be the one to speak to IT about handover issues.

          It’s not that the OP was wrong to ask IT to sort out the inbox access, but maybe they could have followed up again with the boss to ask ‘Is it OK if I raise a ticket with IT about this? Or would you rather handle it?’. That’s with the benefit of hindsight, though – OP couldn’t have known that the boss would feel pushed out or minimised.

        2. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Having it go to someone else after 24 years kinda hits. She knows intellectually what must happen, but emotionally its the end of an era in her life and she is still processing what that really means. No more involvement in those projects, no daily problem – solving (one of the reasons my dad won’t retire, he likes going to work and solving problems every day).

        3. sparkle emoji*

          The boss wasn’t really thinking about it, at least not rationally. She’s having feelings about her retirement, and directed those feelings at LW. This was the smart and logical way to approach the issue, but logic wasn’t holding the reins in the moment she got upset about this. Hopefully this is a one off, but I think LW just needs to keep in mind these moments(if they continue) aren’t really about them, they’re about her figuring out a big transition.

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      My thought was that the Boss thought they had discussed, and she had requested, that SHE still retain her email address… that she thought the ticket was going to be for her to have continued access to it in addition to it being kept active. When she finally realized that it was instead to be the OP (or the rest of the department) that would have access, while she was (of course) removed, she freaked out.

      1. Jerry*

        Hello, the case in question is mine. My boss and me discussed the idea of us, as a unit, having access to her mailbox because of all the historical and active projects. How hard it will be for us to redirect providers and clients to other mailboxes, how important for us the access to archive mail chains and so on. So I really doubt that her main idea was to keep the access for herself after retirement.

  16. Safely Retired*

    #1, the part I don’t understand is the whole friendship thing. Instead of asking him about a restaurant, be explicit to him. Perhaps the message to deliver, to him not HR, is to back off, that if he wants to be a friend he had better stop x, y, and z.

    1. Keymaster of Gozer (She/Her)*

      From experience this doesn’t work. It’s not an issue that he hasn’t been told no clearly (and men can understand implicit ‘no’ just as well as women can), it’s that he knows how to skirt around plausibility.

      Yes, be more distant. Yes he’s a lousy friend. But do report to HR because he’s showing some concerning signs of escalating.

    2. Some Words*

      The friend bus rolled out of the station. There’s no friendship to salvage.

      I’m sorry but this is terrible advice to a woman who is feeling stalked (or pestered, if you prefer) by someone.

    3. londonedit*

      Many people want to give others the benefit of the doubt in the first instance, and it can be especially tricky when it’s a work colleague who you still have to be able to work collaboratively alongside. That’s what makes it so difficult. And that’s before we get into the fact that women are frequently told to ‘be nice’, ‘don’t rock the boat’, ‘he’s just being friendly’, etc etc etc. The OP says that his wife is already worried about the situation being turned around on her, because she was initially friendly to this creep – that’s a very common outcome for women who report this sort of thing. ‘Well, what did you say to him? Were you leading him on?’. Sigh.

      I imagine the wife thought OK, I’ve had the talk with him, I’ve told him politely to back off. That’s all done now, so let’s move on and be civil to each other like adults. But unfortunately Mr Creeperson is incapable of behaving like a reasonable adult, and instead is ramping up his creepy behaviour. I think he’s gone way past the point where the OP’s wife should be expected to handle this herself. She’s given him a chance to stop, and not only has he not stopped but he’s escalated the weirdness. She absolutely needs to report him to HR at this point.

      1. Seashell*

        Totally agree. She probably thought she was making polite chit-chat about a neutral subject (restaurants) like she would with any other co-worker, and he utilized this information to show up out of the blue.

    4. House On The Rock*

      Nah, she should be taking this to HR and not interacting with him anymore. The reason she went to “friendship” with him and attempted to keep things light is because, as the saying goes, “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” Trust me (and all women who’ve dealt with these kind of guys), he has no interest in being her friend and his behavior is not going to change except, perhaps, to escalate!

    6. Ellis Bell*

      Because only creeps interpret “let’s be friends” to mean “I secretly want you, please try harder”. Initially she was hoping he wasn’t a creep in spite of her instincts, but her instincts are proving to be right on. Also, as others have said, directness doesn’t work with a creep. The recent letter were the rejected guy was bitterly bad-mouthing the object of his former objections as getting promotions for being pretty, isn’t even the worst outcome for guys like this.

    7. Observer*

      Perhaps the message to deliver, to him not HR, is to back off,

      She already did. He responded by calling her crazy, then responded to her next bland interaction by stalking her.

      The time for “messages” is past.

    8. tinybutfierce*

      But this guy has made it clear he doesn’t want to be a friend. He already literally called her crazy for not responding positively to his obvious advances, which is a textbook example from the playbook of This Friggin’ Guy; any “friendship” with him is just an opportunity for him to try and change her mind about being involved with him, or to insult her (again) if she continues to shut him down. Friendship with ulterior motives isn’t friendship.

  17. Peanut Hamper*

    Just a reminder that if you are like the boss in #3, please try to have a life outside of work. You don’t want to retire or be forced to leave and have your entire life pulled out from under you.

    1. RIP Pillowfort*

      I think that’s sort of unfair to the boss. If the boss is have a reaction to retirement- it doesn’t mean it’s because work is their “whole life.”

      We’re not privy to the behind the scenes issues the boss may have. Maybe they’re worried about retirement or it’s a compounding issue that’s unrelated. My mom retired for a medical reason but she had reached retirement age. So all the co-workers knew was that she was retiring because she’d reached that milestone. Not because she was struggling with illness that was making it difficult to work.

      1. Hyaline*

        LW said that work was a big part of the boss’s emotional support system–she may well have a “life” outside of work, but the LW suggests her support network isn’t very robust.

        2. Peanut Hamper*

          Hit the button too soon.

          I mean, the number of letters we’ve seen here where somebody retires from a job and then keeps coming back and trying to do their job or making a nuisance of themselves is fairly high. You don’t want to be that person. Dig the well before you are thirsty.

        3. RIP Pillowfort*

          All I’m saying is we need to give people some grace and painting them all as people that don’t have a life outside of work seems cruel. They’re people and we shouldn’t assume we’re immune to these feelings just because we do have robust systems in place. Maybe I’m wrong in feeling that way but it just hit me that way today. I like my job a lot and I’m sure I’ll have complicated feelings about leaving even though I love my life outside of work.

          Though I would hope I never act like the OP’s boss because they’re 100% in the wrong for lashing out like that. Frankly the boss should apologize to the OP, though I doubt they will.

          1. Space Needlepoint*

            I think the reaction was over the top, but I’ve felt like saying, “I’m not dead yet,” when I’m leaving a place. As more and more work got transitioned off my plate, and people prepare to move on without me, I did sometimes feel, “Well, I’m no longer relevant, nobody will miss me.” It was certainly not meant, but it still hurt.

            Those feelings do not mean you yell at people.

          2. doreen*

            I had complicated feelings about retiring – I think many people do. But to the extent that I cared about what happened when I retired, I didn’t want to leave a mess behind. I really didn’t get the feeling that this boss has no life outside of work – I got the feeling that the retirement is not by choice. Maybe medical, maybe they’re getting pushed out but when I’ve seen people act like that , it wasn’t their choice to retire.

  18. Charley*

    #4, I see no downside to a little while lie, as long as you don’t contradict known elements of your biography, on the order of: “Mum wants the family together for Christmas this year, so I might be in Hometown that week.” Or whatever would seem plausible and applicable for you.

    1. I never have real plans*

      This is what I’d do. “My husband and I are working on planning a trip for that week”. So what if it ends up happening a couple of months later?

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, this. You don’t know yet if you’ll even be in town and can’t know until your various relatives’ schedules are settled. (Even if my “relatives” are my cats who will probably want me to stay home with them.)

  19. Green Post-Its*

    Aw #5 I’m also in the UK and know the Office Christmas Party culture is a big thing. I think it’s really touching that your colleagues will miss you and want you to come, as irritating as it is to be pressured like that.

    However maybe if you say you can’t plan that far ahead but will try to drop in just for a drink, they’ll let it go more easily. You can then see nearer the time if you want to. At many work Xmas parties there’s a handful of ex staff who drop in to say hi and catch up with old work friends.

    It sounds like they want to give you a proper send off, so if you’re comfortable with having a leaving party that could also take the focus off Xmas.

    Good luck!

  20. BBB*

    #4 oh boy your post just pummeled me with a memory. I once had multiple people pushing me (harassing me?) to attend our department Christmas party when it was planned for a day I had pto scheduled. I was taking pto because it was a very recent death anniversary, something I had zero interest in sharing with anyone at work, and I was already struggling and people being pushy and not listening to my no was just so awful to pile on top of all that.
    thankfully I moved jobs in this time so the Christmas party was a moot point but man the pressure and boundary stomping that people did over a stupid party was unreal.

  21. Ready for the weekend*

    OP 1: I’m so sorry; she should show HR the text that she sent about only being friends and document continued actions as much as possible. Also don’t share anything non-work related with him anymore. It’s okay to be direct with him and say no without any explanation or niceties. .

  22. Hyaline*

    LW4, putting a pin in Christmas plans for the moment–do you want to keep in touch with these coworkers, or is this really not a priority for you? Often when people move on–from a job, moving out of the neighborhood, changing schools, whatever–people don’t want to lose the relationship. Which is nice, it means they like you! But sometimes the person moving on…well…might not have the same feeling. It doesn’t mean anyone dislikes anyone, but sometimes a fresh start means it’s easier to have a clean break, or maybe the challenge of keeping up with bunch of acquaintances with whom you only had work in common is daunting. And that’s ok. I’m wondering if that’s happening a little here–you’re getting the hard sell to maintain the relationships but you’re not that keen on investing the energy there. It’s ok. Long run, no one is going to be hurt that you worked together for a while and then you moved on–that’s life.

    If you do want to keep in touch, but your hangup is honestly just the Christmas party, then softpedal the party but make firm-ish plans to get together sooner, and people will stop bugging you (as much) about the party. Maybe even plan a pub night or dinner out or something and call it your send-off. But if it’s not just the party, keep up with the white lies that you’re not sure of your plans yet and do a soft fade from their lives.

  23. OrdinaryJoe*

    # 3 … I feel you! My company is dealing with this (key person leaving by choice but hating it) and its an emotional minefield. Our key person gave 8 months notice, which was way more than needed and it’s been 8 months of tiptoe’ing around. We’re 7 months in and naturally talking about things that will happen once they’re gone and they can’t seem to accept it. Still making decisions, still dictating stuff, refuse to start looping their replacement in on decisions, etc.

    You did nothing wrong and this isn’t your issue to try to solve. After 24 yrs, it’s hard to accept that work will go on, things will still get done, and they are just a cog in a big wheel.

  24. Jennifer Strange*

    For #1 I just want to say thank you for supporting your wife in all of this, and for framing the question as “what should she do?” rather than “What should I do?”

  25. Over Analyst*

    I’m generally a sympathetic/empathetic person but I’d be so mad if I were letter writer 3! That’s an extreme reaction on the boss’s part even if you hadn’t discussed it first, and the fact remains that you literally did what she told you to do! It really stinks that it’s soured the relationship. Hopefully you can salvage some of the time left so it doesn’t remain uncomfortable. You did nothing wrong.

  26. Some Dude*

    #3 is bonkers to me as what happens to someone’s email (or really any other work resources) is at the discretion of the company. Sure, if you have things in your work email that are not work-related, remove them as you don’t want someone else to come across them. But if it’s related to work, then it makes sense for your colleagues to have access to those emails. I can see input from a department on who may get access, or where the emails to that address will be forwarded in the future/the out-of-office reply, but either IT policy or someone higher up the food chain likely would be governing what happens in the end.

    1. londonedit*

      I think the thing is that it isn’t really about the email at all, it’s about the fact that the boss was suddenly confronted with the reality of the fact that she’s retiring, and she couldn’t cope with the emotions that brought up. I think the key phrase is when she said she should be handling it – I think she feels that she’s been pushed aside, people are making plans without her, and they’re taking responsibilities away from her before she’s even left. That’s a big reaction to something like an email inbox, of course, but the boss has been there for 24 years and clearly ties a lot of her personality and her self-worth to her job. I imagine she filed the OP’s original email asking about migrating access to her inbox as ‘I’ll deal with that when I’m ready’, and was then spooked and upset when the OP escalated it to IT without checking again.

  27. el l*

    OP2:
    This is exhibit P in “You Mean Well, But Don’t Manage Others’ Emotions for Them at Work.”

  28. pocket sized polly*

    I totally get where Alison is coming from with LW 2 maybe wanting to smooth things over for the boss who’s retiring and I’d probably want to do that too…but I’m also a petty enough b-word that I’d be leaning heavily towards the latter option she suggested:
    “Did I misunderstand our conversation? I thought you’d explicitly told me to send that email to IT”

    If only because the boss’ reaction was so over the top, even with the whole “retiring stirs up a lot of emotions!” aspect (and I’m coming at this from the angle of having had bosses who didn’t need the excuse of “I’m retiring and having a lot of mixed feeeeeelingz about it!!” to have whiplash OTT reactions like that to simple directives they’d given me).

    TLDR: If the LW wanted to go with the more direct “I’m literally just doing what you told me to do, calm the hell down, it is not my fault you chose to retire but are having a feelingsbomb about it,” no one would judge them.

    1. Jerry*

      Thank you! The case in question is mine. I have calmed slightly and now see it, but I really don’t want to make last mounts of work more miserable for my boss. So I try to manage it all without confrontation and “who said what”.

  29. AnonAnon*

    #1 YES YES YES GO TO HR.
    I had something similar happen and I didn’t feel like it was harassment, but just really creepy, too. I reported it and the person ended up getting let go from the company because this was not their first rodeo. I found out that I was not the first to report this person. Later on, I found out a coworker also had interactions with this person that were creepy.
    In addition, company security was able to find out searches he had done on his PC related to me and other women and using company software to find out further personal info.

    Trust your gut.

    1. Hyaline*

      This is such a good point—you never know what the larger patterns and picture look like and the “little thing” you’re not sure you should report could be the piece of a pattern needed to do something. I think LW has fully established a stalkerish harassment problem that shouldn’t require any waffling on going to HR, but even if they hadn’t, this is a good reminder to go with your gut and report.

  30. Cinnamon Stick*

    LW2: yes, that’s weird. If they want to get more personal about why you weren’t hired, then some feedback is appropriate. It’s usually not given because companies want to protect themselves from potential lawsuits.

    I talk about my feelings with my friends or my therapist. With a question like this in this context, being a wall is the way to go, IMO.

  31. Somehow I Manage*

    OP1 – A couple of things:

    1. As someone said above, good on you for being supportive and for framing this the right way. What should she do, versus what should I do. You’re doing the right thing in the right way.

    2. You should encourage your wife to take this to HR. If I had someone approach me with this situation, I’d want to see the text messages of course. Your wife appears to have shut this down in a way that attempted to maintain a reasonable working relationship. That she didn’t tell him to take a hike and/or report it right away isn’t on her. She was presumably worried about how this might impact her and others in the workplace. And I’d absolutely want to hear about the restaurant situation.

    In that restaurant situation in particular, I think I see what was happening. She wanted to show this guy that she was trying to maintain a reasonable relationship and asked an innocent question. I’ve done something similar before. Let’s say there’s some tension between me and someone else… a coworker, my spouse, my sibling, for instance. I’ve initiated an innocent conversation that is intended to focus on something other than what the tension was, just as an ice breaker of sorts. Your wife isn’t big wrong for asking a question. She wasn’t asking him to dinner or to grab a drink. She was asking a colleague for an opinion about a place. His choice to show up and creepily sit nearby was his choice and a choice that escalated this even more. So if HR is worth a darn, they’ll see this for what it is and deal with it appropriately.

  32. Space Needlepoint*

    That’s a lot of money for a party with former co-workers. It’s nice that they want you to attend, but sucks that you might not be able to enjoy the food. Being vague in August is just fine. When it gets to November, a comment like, “I’ll do my best,” instead of “We’ll see,” might work until it’s time to say, “I’m sorry, I have plans.” Those plans can be sitting on the couch with a bowl of popcorn and Netflix–they don’t need to know that.

    1. londonedit*

      I think the issue probably is that most pubs/restaurants require firm bookings for Christmas – they want numbers and a deposit and they’ll be asking for menu choices in advance, too (probably not this early, but definitely by November I’d have thought). So there’s an element of ‘You need to let us know now, so we can give the numbers/deposit/menu choices to the restaurant!’

      So I think it probably would be best for the OP to say now that the colleagues shouldn’t count them in for the meal, but carry on being vague about a drink (or if the OP is happy to join them for a drink, or go for a drink another time, say that). ‘I’ve no idea what I’m doing in December, so don’t count me in on the Christmas meal plans, but it would be great to go for a drink if we can!’ or similar.

  33. Cardboard Marmalade*

    I’m so baffled by #2, is there any chance at all that this was a misguided attempt on the part of the interviewer to hint that they had wanted to hire the person but been overruled? I am hard pressed to think of any other reason someone would want to draw out a rejection conversation like that otherwise.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think the “specialized field of human services” may be to blame here. The company spends all its time serving other people, and their reflex is to apply that same emotionally-sensitive approach to coworkers & candidates as they do to their clients.

      1. Technically Editor*

        Not just human services. It’s in the public sector. A panel interview I had led to a very awkward 20 min phone call of a woman apologizing I didn’t get the role. It was….weird, like the burden of her feeling bad was put on me? Perhaps I was the runner-up, which has happened a couple times. But yeesh.

  34. Trout 'Waver*

    People like OP#2 describe drive me nuts. Yeah, please make me do the emotional labor of reassuring you after you’ve rejected me.

  35. Anne Shirley Blythe*

    LW1, I’m sorry your wife is dealing with this. Once confronted, creepy coworker will no doubt play the “all my offers were friendly in nature” card. Creepers thrive on using this and other social behaviors as shields. “I always greet women with a kiss on the cheek. And we were at church!” It doesn’t matter. He has been making your wife feel targeted and unsafe. If she hasn’t already, she should revisit her privacy settings on every social media platform. Please update us.

    1. Somehow I Manage*

      The only place I disagree is that it is really difficult to play off the restaurant situation as friendly in nature. HR should look at the escalation of the behavior, from whatever happened in text to showing up at a random restaurant at a specific time.

      1. londonedit*

        Yeah, I don’t really think there’s any way to make that not be creepy. I expect he’ll go for ‘It’s a free country! I’m allowed to go to whatever restaurant I want! I didn’t even speak to her!’ but any reasonable person will think whoa, no, that’s incredibly creepy and quite terrifying behaviour, especially given the context.

          1. Somehow I Manage*

            For sure. Each situation could be “explained” independently. While the explanation isn’t correct, there’s a response that could muddy the waters when reporting this. But when all of the evidence is presented, the restaurant thing is an escalation of something that was already problematic.

            1. Tally miss*

              He’s going to claim that once someone he respected thought the restaurant was worth visiting, he decided to give it another chance. He can’t be blamed for taking a valued colleague’s opinion into consideration. A creepy guy will always blame the other person and make sure she knows this is all her fault. He needs to be reported yesterday.

  36. Caramel & Cheddar*

    Re: letter 3, I haven’t seen this mentioned, but it seems to me it was an issue of timing and not the action itself of asking IT to keep the account alive. You did what she asked! But also she probably didn’t need IT to deal with her account two months in advance* because she was still actively using it. “I’m not dead!” is not the way to communicate that and she was absolutely over the top, but I can see why if she was still actively using the account that she didn’t feel it was necessary for the sharing permissions to suddenly be given to everyone.

    That you were told people pop into everyone else’s inboxes when you started definitely seems like a coverage thing, which I’m assuming most of your team doesn’t provide for the boss.

    *Unless your IT team is achingly slow, which I know a lot are, to be fair.

    1. Jerry*

      Thank you! The case in question is mine. Our IT is extremely slow and tends to lose tasks, so part of our conversation with boss was the idea that better start the mailbox transfer sooner than later. I wrote in the letter that I request to do it all only after her retirement and provided the date.

  37. The golden typewriter*

    Lw1: report this to HR… and the police.
    You told him no, and he can’t accept that. Please report it to the authorities before he crosses too many lines. Stalking is serious. Please, don’t let this fly under the rug.

    1. HelloWorld*

      Yes, police may be involved.

      Many years ago at my university, a guy who was not a student showed up uninvited at the faculty’s building randomly. He would chat with people (students and faculty) about just some random topic. Initially, there was no effort kicking him out of the building because university is publicly accessible.

      Then he started to show up to some gatherings that he heard in the hallway. (Note that this is before social media was invented.) The students, who didn’t know each other before, discovered that it’s the same guy who tried to befriend the people in the faculty. Then the students reported the person to police and he was banned from the campus permanently.

  38. BBB*

    #4 oh boy your post just pummeled me with a memory. I once had multiple people pushing me (harassing me?) to attend our department Christmas party when it was planned for a day I had pto scheduled. I was taking pto because it was a very recent death anniversary, something I had zero interest in sharing with anyone at work, and I was already struggling and people being pushy and not listening to my no was just so awful to pile on top of all that.
    thankfully I moved jobs in this time so the Christmas party was a moot point but man the pressure and boundary stomping that people did over a stupid party was unreal.

    (is anyone else having constant issues with the comment box here? posted this hours ago and it never showed up but is also somehow a duplicate?)

  39. Butterfly Counter*

    I initially read the first letter as a coworker following your wife on social media and wondered why she just couldn’t make her profile private or block him.

    But he’s following her in real life! Absolutely, yes! Get HR involved!

  40. thoughtful*

    lw 1 it’s also creepy to me that he said he wasn’t a fan of the restaurant and then shows up. not sure it’s something to add when talking to hr or not not her feelings are very understandable

  41. Enn Pee*

    LW1, I want to share the experience of a coworker who was in a similar situation.
    Nice older guy (let’s call him Rocco) took a shine to my coworker Bridget. They would occasionally have overlapping work, but did not work in the same group.

    He’d come by her desk. It would become EVERY DAY. She’d have coworkers try to grab him for a chat before he got to her desk so that she could go hide in the ladies’ room.

    He sent her an email in their native language (not English) asking her which lingerie she’d like him to buy for her (!!!). At that point, I told her to go to HR, but she didn’t want to get him in trouble.

    Finally, he decided to take long walks, around the parking lot, to exercise before leaving for the day. Somehow, every evening, he’d always be right by her car as she was leaving the office. She had a fellow coworker escort her to her car.

    After a month or two of that, fellow coworker complained that Rocco’s harassment of Bridget was impacting THEIR work — they couldn’t leave for home when THEY wanted because they had to protect Bridget. Rocco was pulled into HR and quickly managed out the door.

    I’m not blaming the victim here. It is so difficult when you are dealing with someone who is “nice”, who hasn’t done anything blatantly threatening, who other people like…but that individual will take any piece of goodwill or even blandness that you show them and continue to escalate and push.

  42. River*

    #4. You can always pretend to commit now but then lie about it once it gets closer. Depending on when you need to purchase your ticket, if you need to have it purchased in advance, you can say you already have other commitments like family coming in from out of town or you are going out of town for family. But if the cutoff date for tickets is much closer to the event, you can pretend to commit now but then say something came up last minute.
    My workplace always gets together for the holidays and my little white lie for a good number of years now is that my family from out of the country flies in every year during the Christmas season. While that is true, I usually don’t see them until Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. So every year I get the question, is your family coming over for the holidays again this year? My response: YES (and I am genuinely enthused by it). No one will try and rain on that with work…

  43. Gilgongo*

    My boss basically told me it was my fault for being harassed because I gave my work colleague my phone number. We were going to be at the same non-work event so we exchanged numbers & met up for a beer (with other people). Everything was fine. Then he got flirty, and I told him & I lived with someone & wasn’t interested in a romantic relationship.

    Aaaand then he started harassing me, so I had to block him. When I told HR & my boss, I was told I shouldn’t have given him my number. I was 46 at the time (about 5 years ago) and the harasser was in his 20s or early 30s. I thought I was too old for this sh*t, but apparently not.

    1. Lurker*

      Surprised they didn’t also tell you that you should be flattered that someone was interested in you at your age! /sarcasm

  44. gkahlg1*

    #4 You can respond that you’re thinking it over or considering it even if you aren’t. It’s a polite response and no one will be bothered if you do not show up. I like the idea of holiday parties, but they’re generally scheduled during the few times that I get to see certain members of my family. I will choose my family every time, and most of them are rather shy and do not want to attend a large quasi-work event with me.

  45. Rebecca*

    LW3…not exactly the same but I recently resigned from my job and it was very stressful trying to get people to let me manage my own exit. People were duplicating my work (stuff like my transition memo) and starting to do some of my day-to-day tasks (stuff I was going to hand off, but like a week before I left) without telling me.

    It’s a very disorienting feeling, because although you’re leaving and looking ahead to something new, you’re still in the role and a member of the team. And you start to feel a little out of control about leaving familiar stuff behind, so you want to kind of keep your hand on the wheel.

    You are very nice to want to smooth things over but you didn’t do anything wrong.

  46. tinybutfierce*

    “He said she was acting crazy and of course they were just friends. He then followed it up the next day with another creepy invite to meet outside of work.”

    Ah, yes, the good ol’ “if you don’t respond positively to my obvious advances, you’re actually crazy/a bitch/etc.” routine.

  47. sagegreen is still my favorite color.*

    I am concerned that women still don’t know they can go to Hr when this happens. Yes, men too, but it seems to happen to women more. Of course, women’s rights are going back in time, so maybe that has something to do with it.

    Yes, please go to Hr and don’t talk to him unless it’s work related and do not be alone with him.

    1. Nina*

      I am concerned that you don’t seem aware that HR is often (in my experience usually) really bad at handling things like this, and almost always start by making it the reporter’s problem with things like ‘well you still have to work with him so don’t antagonize him’ and ‘why did you tell him you were going to that restaurant, dummy’.
      It’s not ‘didn’t know going to HR was an option’, it’s ‘know HR is likely to be about as helpful as tits on a bull’.

  48. ElliottRook*

    We autistics are going to come in strong on #5 haha. I personally am not suited to office work, but I’ve found my fairly repetitive peace in working nights–I drove cab for 6 years, which was always the same task but on different routes so it was the perfect level of same-but-not-mind-numbing. Now I work in a boarding school doing checks to make sure the kids are asleep in their beds. It’s a lot of down time, a lot of my coworkers are college students who do their studying on the clock. There’s the very occasional incident, of course, that’s what happens working with people, but 95% of the time it’s very, very quiet.

  49. Managercanuck*

    Thanks for the “cheerful wall” concept in #2, Alison! My husband’s moving to a new position in a new section in a couple of weeks and was forewarned about a couple of his new colleagues, and to “avoid providing too much personal information, and just to stay neutral with them”, so he may find it useful!

  50. Anonymous For Now*

    If she doesn’t want to go to HR she could tell him that she told her husband about him and how he won’t leave her alone. Advise him that for his own safety, he doesn’t want her to have to let her husband know that he is continuing to bother her. Emphasize that she is really concerned for his safety.

    We have no information on her husband, but the creeper probably doesn’t either. For all he knows her husband was a sniper in the military or has friends in the mafia.

    1. inksmith*

      Ooh, no – then she’ll end up in trouble for effectively threatening the guy with violence. No-one will care that he did threatening things first, she’ll be the one that ends up getting in trouble/fired.

  51. SmellMyFinger*

    RE: Creeper

    Anyone else wanna bet there’s more to this story re: wife and “creeper”???

Comments are closed.